Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 05:52:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks OK, I know I may be just wishing again.... has anyone ever made these trucks in O Scale? Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Freight on corridor Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:35:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C387FF.5F107470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if there is still any freight trains that on the NE corridor through Philadelphia ? I live fairly close to corridor and could swear I hear the diesel horns, the rumble multible loco's and the slower moving "Clickty-clack" of the wheels late at night and early in the morning. Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C387FF.5F107470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Does = anyone know if=20 there is still any freight trains that on the NE corridor through = Philadelphia=20 ?
I live = fairly close=20 to corridor and could swear I hear the diesel horns, the rumble multible = loco's and the slower moving "Clickty-clack" of the wheels late at = night=20 and early in the morning.
 
Thanks
 
Kenny
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C387FF.5F107470-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:11:08 +0000 Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest issue. What were their conclusions? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight on corridor Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:01:12 -0400 Ken, As far as I can tell you, CSX/NS still run freights early morning and Late Evenings. I've seen them north of Holmesburg along I-95 some mornings. -John ----------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone know if there is still any freight trains that on the NE corridor through Philadelphia ? I live fairly close to corridor and could swear I hear the diesel horns, the rumble multible loco's and the slower moving "Clickty-clack" of the wheels late at night and early in the morning. Thanks Kenny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:31:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MR review of BLI G From: Bruce Smith On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 10:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest > issue. > What were their conclusions? Thanks Terry Thompson, editor of MR, is a former toy train editor, and he thought everything was just ducky . No mention of color or drive problems and only an oblique reference to cast on details, missing or inappropriate details and the european NEM coupler box (which necessitates the funky kadee). Of course, I am biased about which review I think has been most accurate so far Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Railfest - Altoona Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:51:00 -0400 Is anyone from either of these lists going to Railfest? I will be there late tomorrow (leaving tomorrow morning, so won't see my e-mails after first thing tomorrow morning). I will be in the museum late morning/early afternoon on Friday, then plan to start somewhere in the vicinity of Rose Tower/East Altoona and work my way west as far as I can get by dark. Saturday I'll pick up where I left off - Brickyard, Curve, Galitzin, Cresson, as time permits, resuming on Sun. Once things get set up in the museum yard with the live steam, I'll check that out and the model RR displays in the adjacent mall. I have a ticket to ride on Bennett's Warrior Ridge on the 3:15 excursion on Sunday, then leave for home. Hope to see some of you there. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Circuit Boards List, Anyone using DCC in here have any of the Circuit Boards that you removed from the Athearn Genesis F Units so that you could mount your DCC Decoder? I need at least a handful of these plain jane Circuit Boards so if you have them lying around in your supplies, drop me an email. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:39:12 -0400 The reviewed had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. I myself am glad to see a company like BLI sell a feature rich model and roughly the same cost as a Life Like model, I think Spectum, Proto 2000, Genesis, are all getting way out of hand with the prices. Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:11 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest issue. What were their conclusions? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:54:33 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt wrote: The review had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. Frankly, if you're looking for an honest product review, you won't find it in a mainstream model magazine. Advertising income is a huge chunk of the bottom line, and the publishers fear any review that can be perceived as negative may result in retaliation from manufacturers in the form of lost advertising dollars. I think the last negative product review that I saw in MR was for the first run of C&BT Santa Fe reefers, and this was because the kits really did have significant fit and assembly problems. This makes independent forums such as TKM and PRR-Talk all that more crucial in getting honest information out to the consumer. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:54:33 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt wrote: The review had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. Frankly, if you're looking for an honest product review, you won't find it in a mainstream model magazine. Advertising income is a huge chunk of the bottom line, and the publishers fear any review that can be perceived as negative may result in retaliation from manufacturers in the form of lost advertising dollars. I think the last negative product review that I saw in MR was for the first run of C&BT Santa Fe reefers, and this was because the kits really did have significant fit and assembly problems. This makes independent forums such as TKM and PRR-Talk all that more crucial in getting honest information out to the consumer. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:01:22 -0400 I've gotten my issue of MR, but have not had a chance to read the review. I probably don't even have to. BLI advertises in MR and some of their other advertisers carry BLI products. The review will be very positive, I'm sure. In spite of some of the discrepencies discussed in detail on this list the MR review will proclaim this model the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'll go home tonight and read the review for myself... Just to make sure I haven't lied to you. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:32 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] MR review of BLI G On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 10:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest > issue. > What were their conclusions? Thanks Terry Thompson, editor of MR, is a former toy train editor, and he thought everything was just ducky . No mention of color or drive problems and only an oblique reference to cast on details, missing or inappropriate details and the european NEM coupler box (which necessitates the funky kadee). Of course, I am biased about which review I think has been most accurate so far Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:54:33 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt wrote: The review had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. Frankly, if you're looking for an honest product review, you won't find it in a mainstream model magazine. Advertising income is a huge chunk of the bottom line, and the publishers fear any review that can be perceived as negative may result in retaliation from manufacturers in the form of lost advertising dollars. I think the last negative product review that I saw in MR was for the first run of C&BT Santa Fe reefers, and this was because the kits really did have significant fit and assembly problems. This makes independent forums such as TKM and PRR-Talk all that more crucial in getting honest information out to the consumer. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:01:22 -0400 I've gotten my issue of MR, but have not had a chance to read the review. I probably don't even have to. BLI advertises in MR and some of their other advertisers carry BLI products. The review will be very positive, I'm sure. In spite of some of the discrepencies discussed in detail on this list the MR review will proclaim this model the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'll go home tonight and read the review for myself... Just to make sure I haven't lied to you. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:32 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] MR review of BLI G On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 10:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest > issue. > What were their conclusions? Thanks Terry Thompson, editor of MR, is a former toy train editor, and he thought everything was just ducky . No mention of color or drive problems and only an oblique reference to cast on details, missing or inappropriate details and the european NEM coupler box (which necessitates the funky kadee). Of course, I am biased about which review I think has been most accurate so far Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:54:33 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt wrote: The review had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. Frankly, if you're looking for an honest product review, you won't find it in a mainstream model magazine. Advertising income is a huge chunk of the bottom line, and the publishers fear any review that can be perceived as negative may result in retaliation from manufacturers in the form of lost advertising dollars. I think the last negative product review that I saw in MR was for the first run of C&BT Santa Fe reefers, and this was because the kits really did have significant fit and assembly problems. This makes independent forums such as TKM and PRR-Talk all that more crucial in getting honest information out to the consumer. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:01:22 -0400 I've gotten my issue of MR, but have not had a chance to read the review. I probably don't even have to. BLI advertises in MR and some of their other advertisers carry BLI products. The review will be very positive, I'm sure. In spite of some of the discrepencies discussed in detail on this list the MR review will proclaim this model the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'll go home tonight and read the review for myself... Just to make sure I haven't lied to you. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:32 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] MR review of BLI G On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 10:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest > issue. > What were their conclusions? Thanks Terry Thompson, editor of MR, is a former toy train editor, and he thought everything was just ducky . No mention of color or drive problems and only an oblique reference to cast on details, missing or inappropriate details and the european NEM coupler box (which necessitates the funky kadee). Of course, I am biased about which review I think has been most accurate so far Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:08:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Any Surviving F30d Flats? From: Jerry Britton Does anyone know of any surviving F30d flat cars? These were the cars converted from F30 for TrucTrain use. Trying to find one for a manufacturer for reference. Can be ex-PRR or ex-TTX. TOFC features preferred intact. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:54:33 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt wrote: The review had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. Frankly, if you're looking for an honest product review, you won't find it in a mainstream model magazine. Advertising income is a huge chunk of the bottom line, and the publishers fear any review that can be perceived as negative may result in retaliation from manufacturers in the form of lost advertising dollars. I think the last negative product review that I saw in MR was for the first run of C&BT Santa Fe reefers, and this was because the kits really did have significant fit and assembly problems. This makes independent forums such as TKM and PRR-Talk all that more crucial in getting honest information out to the consumer. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:01:22 -0400 I've gotten my issue of MR, but have not had a chance to read the review. I probably don't even have to. BLI advertises in MR and some of their other advertisers carry BLI products. The review will be very positive, I'm sure. In spite of some of the discrepencies discussed in detail on this list the MR review will proclaim this model the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'll go home tonight and read the review for myself... Just to make sure I haven't lied to you. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:32 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] MR review of BLI G On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 10:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Don't get MR any more but note they reviewed the BLI G in the lastest > issue. > What were their conclusions? Thanks Terry Thompson, editor of MR, is a former toy train editor, and he thought everything was just ducky . No mention of color or drive problems and only an oblique reference to cast on details, missing or inappropriate details and the european NEM coupler box (which necessitates the funky kadee). Of course, I am biased about which review I think has been most accurate so far Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:08:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Any Surviving F30d Flats? From: Jerry Britton Does anyone know of any surviving F30d flat cars? These were the cars converted from F30 for TrucTrain use. Trying to find one for a manufacturer for reference. Can be ex-PRR or ex-TTX. TOFC features preferred intact. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:46:17 -0500 I'm not sure I can agree with this. Read the review on the recent Bachmann USRA Heavy in last month's MR. While in general the tone was positive, the reviewer noted several shortcomings in that particular model. I think one needs to read between the lines sometimes to find a model's true shortcomings. -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:55 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Kenny Nesbitt wrote: The review had a overall tone of an outstanding locomotive model. Nothing was wrong with it, everything was great. Seemed a little biased. Frankly, if you're looking for an honest product review, you won't find it in a mainstream model magazine. Advertising income is a huge chunk of the bottom line, and the publishers fear any review that can be perceived as negative may result in retaliation from manufacturers in the form of lost advertising dollars. I think the last negative product review that I saw in MR was for the first run of C&BT Santa Fe reefers, and this was because the kits really did have significant fit and assembly problems. This makes independent forums such as TKM and PRR-Talk all that more crucial in getting honest information out to the consumer. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:49:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Open House List From: Jerry Britton Last month was the teaser because I had received some open house info. Now, being October, it's time to get serious with the open house listings. Most are held in November, with some spilling into December. If your private or club layout will be having a formal public open house this holiday season please consider sending the details to me for posting on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d Several dates already listed. You must provide complete info in one e-mail, though, not piecemeal. I need 1. Name of the club or layout 2. 2-3 sentence description, including PRR content 3. Dates and times of open house(s) 4. Address. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:10:50 +0000 Marvin Caldwell wrote: I'm not sure I can agree with this. Read the review on the recent Bachmann USRA Heavy in last month's MR. While in general the tone was positive, the reviewer noted several shortcomings in that particular model. I think one needs to read between the lines sometimes to find a model's true shortcomings. But my point is that the consumer shouldn't have to read between the lines to get that information! The higher price of today's products makes it even more imperative for the consumer to know what he's getting for his hobby dollar. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:24:29 -0500 I don't doubt what you say. With regard to the Bachmann model, enough information was supplied to indicate there were quality control problems with the particular model. I think there are very few specialty magazines which give anything less than a positive analysis of the products they review. The car magazines fall into this category. The only magazine I know of that is not entirely positive about the products they review is Consumer's Report, which to avoid any bias whatsoever, accepts no advertizing. -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:11 PM To: Cadwell, Marvin L Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Marvin Caldwell wrote: I'm not sure I can agree with this. Read the review on the recent Bachmann USRA Heavy in last month's MR. While in general the tone was positive, the reviewer noted several shortcomings in that particular model. I think one needs to read between the lines sometimes to find a model's true shortcomings. But my point is that the consumer shouldn't have to read between the lines to get that information! The higher price of today's products makes it even more imperative for the consumer to know what he's getting for his hobby dollar. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:36:10 -0500 Ben Horn replyed: But my point is that the consumer shouldn't have to read between the lines to get that information! The higher price of today's products makes it even more imperative for the consumer to know what he's getting for his hobby dollar. --- Ben you took the words right out of my mouth!! I thank the guys here on the list for serving up the truth on model reviews. I can't trust the hobby press for a straight to the point review. My hobby dollars are not easy to come by and I need to know if the product is a peach or a lemon. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:08:33 +0000 Marvin Caldwell wrote: "I think there are very few specialty magazines which give anything less than a positive analysis of the products they review. The car magazines fall into this category. The only magazine I know of that is not entirely positive about the products they review is Consumer's Report, which to avoid any bias whatsoever, accepts no advertising." Consumer's Report is an outstanding magazine, and maybe that's the kind of approach we need to take. Unfortunately, independence comes at a price. None of us are independently wealthy enough to support a venture such as this. The organization who should be doing this, the NMRA National, simply doesn't have the staff and, as their current status shows, has trouble keeping its own house in order, much less act as an aggressive advocate for the hobbyist. Still, imagine the Bulletin remodeled along the lines of Consumer Reports - now there's a membership benefit worth the money! We're starting to wander way off-topic here - please direct comments to me off-list. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Louis Judice" Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:16:00 -0500 Just one point - MR has a very broad circulation. BLI is surely aiming at a wide market. Add these two factors together and the review will probably be seen as "fair and balanced" by the majority of readers. In circles where there is a lot more prototype knowledge, there is a lot more to criticize, and that criticism is well taken by the narrower band of readers.... Cheers, Lou -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:24 PM To: 'b.hom@att.net' Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G I don't doubt what you say. With regard to the Bachmann model, enough information was supplied to indicate there were quality control problems with the particular model. I think there are very few specialty magazines which give anything less than a positive analysis of the products they review. The car magazines fall into this category. The only magazine I know of that is not entirely positive about the products they review is Consumer's Report, which to avoid any bias whatsoever, accepts no advertizing. -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:11 PM To: Cadwell, Marvin L Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Marvin Caldwell wrote: I'm not sure I can agree with this. Read the review on the recent Bachmann USRA Heavy in last month's MR. While in general the tone was positive, the reviewer noted several shortcomings in that particular model. I think one needs to read between the lines sometimes to find a model's true shortcomings. But my point is that the consumer shouldn't have to read between the lines to get that information! The higher price of today's products makes it even more imperative for the consumer to know what he's getting for his hobby dollar. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Pre-1953 MOW Colors Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:22:07 -0400 Re: Does anybody know if the plows painted in the pre-1953 grey scheme had black roofs in addition to the black blades and black plow? Yes, black roofs. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MR review of BLI G Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:32:42 +0000 Lou Judice wrote: Just one point - MR has a very broad circulation. BLI is surely aiming at a wide market. Add these two factors together and the review will probably be seen as "fair and balanced" by the majority of readers. In circles where there is a lot more prototype knowledge, there is a lot more to criticize, and that criticism is well taken by the narrower band of readers.... That's true, but wouldn't everyone from the casual buyer to the prototype modeler want to know about a problem as significant as the drivetrain defects on the BLI GG1? This has nothing to do with the size of a magazine's circulation or the size of the target audience. It boils down to what are the merits and shortcomings of a given product. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:00:15 -0400 Bob Zoeller wrote: ...but since I would only use an undec Bowser X31 to get the color right anyway, I will build the Sunshine X31s). Amen. The other thing about the Bowser X31 paint and lettering that really bothers me is the lettering used for the reporting marks for cars in CK - the font used for "PENNSYLVANIA" is oversize and in the wrong style. This is obvious when the car is near any model with the correct lettering, even a Walthers Trainline X29! (This is bad enough, except they got the lettering right on their X32 and X33 models.) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Latowsky" Subject: RE: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:58:55 -0400 Hi Fred, A very accurate model of PRR 2D-F8 will be produced by in O scale by Keystone Model Works (http://www.keystonemodelworks.com). They will be available in both Proto:48 and standard O scale, in both brass and plastic. I've seen a preproduction pair of the trucks, and they are exquisite. Keystone is also planning to produce the 2E-F2 Crown 70-ton trucks. Usual disclaimer applies: I have no connection with the firm except as a satisfied customer. Regards, Martin Latowsky -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Fred Talasco Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 8:53 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks OK, I know I may be just wishing again.... has anyone ever made these trucks in O Scale? Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] X-29s in passenger service What color were X-29s painted when in passenger service? Were they Toluide(sp?) Red, or painted Tuscan to match the passenger cars? Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s in passenger service Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:41:39 -0400 Fred Talasco asked: What color were X-29s painted when in passenger service? Were they Toluide(sp?) Red, or painted Tuscan to match the passenger cars? Freight Car Color, though they all ended up more grimy than anything else. BTW, lose the dash in the car class. Ben Hom There are NO dashes in PRR car classes... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] MR Review of BLI G Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:51:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C38876.FAB1CA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bruce Smith" To: "PRR-Talk" No mention of color or drive > problems and only an oblique reference to cast on details, missing or > inappropriate details and the european NEM coupler box (which > necessitates the funky kadee). I believe, from memory, they did mention the NEM coupler box without any comment pro or con. However, reason for my post is one of curiosity: = in the absence of any mention of a traction tire, I assume there was none. = Is this correct, Bruce? I am not in the market for a GG1, but have a bunch = of steamers on order and while not a deal breaker, it might reduce the = order. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C38876.FAB1CA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original=20 Message -----
From: "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
To: "PRR-Talk" <Prr-Talk@dsop.com>
 No mention of color or drive
> problems and = only an=20 oblique reference to cast on details, missing or
> inappropriate = details=20 and the european NEM coupler box (which
> necessitates the funky=20 kadee).

I believe, from memory, they did mention the NEM coupler = box=20 without any
comment pro or con.  However, reason for my post is = one of=20 curiosity:  in
the absence of any mention of a traction tire, I = assume=20 there was none. Is
this correct, Bruce?  I am not in the market = for a=20 GG1, but have a bunch of
steamers on order and while not a deal = breaker, it=20 might reduce the order.

Bob = Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C38876.FAB1CA60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:05:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MR Review of BLI G From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-6-893363936 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 11:51 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > I believe, from memory, they did mention the NEM coupler box without=20= > any > comment pro or con.=A0 However, reason for my post is one of = curiosity:=A0=20 > in > the absence of any mention of a traction tire, I assume there was=20 > none. Is > this correct, Bruce?=A0 I am not in the market for a GG1, but have a=20= > bunch of > steamers on order and while not a deal breaker, it might reduce the=20 > order. No traction tire, and they did give a drawbar pull that was equivalent=20= to at least 16 weighted pass cars (free rolling) on level track, or=20 IIRC 72 freight cars...hey man, for traction, its a hunk a burning=20 love(!) no debate there...so Ken McCorry will be about the only one of=20= us who will NEED to double head them As for BLI and traction tires, they have done steam both ways now. I=20 hope that the M1 is without, and heck, the T1 ought to be, so it can=20 slip prototypically! Happy Rails Bruce --Apple-Mail-6-893363936 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 11:51 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: Times New RomanI believe, from memory, they did mention the NEM coupler box without any comment pro or con.=A0 However, reason for my post is one of curiosity:=A0= in the absence of any mention of a traction tire, I assume there was none. Is this correct, Bruce?=A0 I am not in the market for a GG1, but have a bunch of steamers on order and while not a deal breaker, it might reduce the order. No traction tire, and they did give a drawbar pull that was equivalent to at least 16 weighted pass cars (free rolling) on level track, or IIRC 72 freight cars...hey man, for traction, its a hunk a burning love(!) no debate there...so Ken McCorry will be about the only one of us who will NEED to double head them < As for BLI and traction tires, they have done steam both ways now. I hope that the M1 is without, and heck, the T1 ought to be, so it can slip prototypically! Happy Rails Bruce --Apple-Mail-6-893363936-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:45:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] MR Review of BLI G When I emailed them about the T1, they said that it had a diecast boiler except for the nose. So it should not require traction tires with that kind of weight. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:17:58 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] X-29s MS Color I was at my dealer yesterday and saw a RTR RC X29 painted for MS. It was a dark "box car" red. The kit version of the same car was the red-orange RC uses on all their other PRR cars. I have come to believe that the red-orange is correct. Is there any basis for this dark chocolate brown on the RTR MS car? Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 10:17 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I was at my dealer yesterday and saw a RTR RC X29 painted for MS. It > was a > dark "box car" red. The kit version of the same car was the > red-orange RC > uses on all their other PRR cars. I have come to believe that the > red-orange > is correct. Is there any basis for this dark chocolate brown on the > RTR MS > car? I was a bit surprised at the color as well. Is it a later color? You can see a pic at the top of http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html WARNING: It's the top of the Advance Reservations page of Merchandise Service. If you take offense to this, please do not proceed. This has been a Public Service Announcement! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: X-29s MS Color Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:33:40 +0000 Andrew Miller asked: I was at my dealer yesterday and saw a RTR RC X29 painted for MS. It was a dark "box car" red. The kit version of the same car was the red-orange RC uses on all their other PRR cars. I have come to believe that the red-orange is correct. Is there any basis for this dark chocolate brown on the RTR MS car? As luck would have it, I was going through X29 photo sources last night. The only basis for the dark color are from photos of two very weathered cars in MS2 in PRR Color Guides Vol 1 and Vol 2. At any rate, the Class X41 builders photo in PRR Color Guide Vol 3 show a redder shade of FCC MS1 cars, but nowhere near as dark as a "boxcar red" or "tuscan red". FWIW, I'd save my $28.45 on the RTR car and put in the work on one of their kits decorated in MS2. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:37:41 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: I was a bit surprised at the color as well. Is it a later color? You can see a pic at the top of http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html AARRGGHH!!! This is a continuation of the bloody "Tuscan Red" myth for PRR freight cars and is bogus. Who did they consult for color, Walthers? Again, save your money and build one of their decorated kits. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:40:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 10:37 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Jerry Britton wrote: > I was a bit surprised at the color as well. Is it a later color? You > can see a pic at the top of http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html > > AARRGGHH!!! This is a continuation of the bloody "Tuscan Red" myth > for PRR > freight cars and is bogus. Who did they consult for color, Walthers? > Again, > save your money and build one of their decorated kits. Another thing that boggles my mind is, why are the kits correct? The RtR cars were supposedly built from the kits! Now, the cars are about nine months overdue. Is it possible that the Chinese did such a horrible build-up job that the cars required repainting AFTER they were assembled? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:44:48 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: "Another thing that boggles my mind is, why are the kits correct? The RtR cars were supposedly built from the kits! Now, the cars are about nine months overdue. Is it possible that the Chinese did such a horrible build-up job that the cars required repainting AFTER they were assembled?" The MS2 kits I have from an earlier run are in the correct shade of FCC. If the RTR cars are built from the same runs at the kits, this automatically makes any new run of kits suspect. Check the kits before you buy! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:47:55 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: X-29s MS Color Thanx Ben. I prefer kits in any event. I joined this hobby, in part, because I love to build things. I am not about to pay some Chinese girl for the privilege of doing it for me ;-) I deeply regret that the high profit margin on RTR cars is driving kits off the market. Case in in point is the new, long-awaited P85b's. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= b.hom@att.net wrote: > Andrew Miller asked: > I was at my dealer yesterday and saw a RTR RC X29 painted for MS. It was a > dark "box car" red. The kit version of the same car was the red-orange RC > uses on all their other PRR cars. I have come to believe that the red-orange > is correct. Is there any basis for this dark chocolate brown on the RTR MS > car? > > As luck would have it, I was going through X29 photo sources last night. The > only basis for the dark color are from photos of two very weathered cars in > MS2 in PRR Color Guides Vol 1 and Vol 2. At any rate, the Class X41 builders > photo in PRR Color Guide Vol 3 show a redder shade of FCC MS1 cars, but > nowhere near as dark as a "boxcar red" or "tuscan red". FWIW, I'd save my > $28.45 on the RTR car and put in the work on one of their kits decorated in > MS2. > > Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:00:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: X-29s MS Color From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 10:47 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I prefer kits in any event. I joined this hobby, in part, because I > love to > build things. I am not about to pay some Chinese girl for the > privilege of doing > it for me ;-) I deeply regret that the high profit margin on RTR > cars is > driving kits off the market. Case in in point is the new, long-awaited > P85b's. Andrew, profit margins are the same, just a higher base price. I appreciate your interest in building kits. For those of us who prefer RtR, consider the recent P85b's in N scale. The retail was $39.95. The retail on the kit already available was $26.95. Add to that MicroScale decals (stripes and names) for $8. Add to that MicroTrains couplers for $3 or so. Since you'll have decals left over for other projects, assume the paint you need is free and is left over from other projects. We're up to a total of 37.95 at retail. Don't know about you, but my time is worth $2 per car to have someone else do it! If anyone disagrees, I need about 150 cars built up. I'd be happy to pay you $2 each to do them for me!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Bowser B6???? Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:33:47 -0400 Group, Since there has been so much talk of new products, I was wondering the status of the Bowser B6? I checked the website and it still says Summer 03??? Maybe they are adding sound to compete with BLI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SamV _________________________________________________________________ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Bowser B6???? Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:19:17 -0400 There's an ad with picture in Nov's RMC. Chris Chany - Group, Since there has been so much talk of new products, I was wondering the status of the Bowser B6? I checked the website and it still says Summer 03??? Maybe they are adding sound to compete with BLI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SamV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:23:58 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color In a message dated 10/2/2003 10:17:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: > Is there any basis for this dark chocolate brown on the RTR > MS > car? The car color was standardized on the darker color in 1953. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:29:55 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color In a message dated 10/2/2003 10:40:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Now, the cars are about nine months overdue. Is it possible that the > Chinese did such a horrible build-up job that the cars > required > repainting AFTER they were assembled? Jerry, Check the paint date on the cars. Beginning in 1953 the FCC was darkened. For referrence check the color drift cards from the PRRT&HS. The FCC card is much darker and more brown than the pre '53 orange-red color. The color change predates the change to SK paint schemes. It is theoreticaly possible to have both colors in the MS scheme. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:37:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 01:29 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Check the paint date on the cars. Beginning in 1953 the FCC was > darkened. For referrence check the color drift cards from the > PRRT&HS. The FCC card is much darker and more brown than the pre '53 > orange-red color. The color change predates the change to SK paint > schemes. It is theoreticaly possible to have both colors in the MS > scheme. Cars are dated April 1953. So don't weather them!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color (fwd) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:49:11 +0000 Rich Orr wrote: Check the paint date on the cars. Beginning in 1953 the FCC was darkened. For referrence check the color drift cards from the PRRT&HS. The FCC card is much darker and more brown than the pre '53 orange-red color. The color change predates the change to SK paint schemes. It is theoreticaly possible to have both colors in the MS scheme. I still have a problem with this model - I can't find any photos of freshly painted Class X29 boxcars in MS2 later than 1951. The two post-1953 MS2 X29 shots (one dated 9/58, the other dated 11/54) in PRR Color Guides Vols 1 and 2 show heavily weathered cars. Though it's theoretically possible, I'm skeptical that any X29s were repainted in MS2 with the later FCC after 1953. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] X-29s MS Color Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:41:06 -0400 Did FCC really darken in '53? I went through some of this when looking for a paint color to paint the N5c at Whippany. Since we're looking to paint it in the 1954 SK scheme I was originally planning on using the drift card. Some folks at the museum balked at the drift card color and pointd to photos of newly painted shadow keystone cars that sure look like the lighter orange-red color. The feedback that I got was that FCC didn't darken until into the sixtees and even then didn't get as dark as the drift card. One lister who's opinion I value stated right out that the FCC drift card shouldn't be used as it is too dark. This kind of caught me off guard as I bought it assuming it was an accurate reproduction but looking at 50's era photos I'm inclined to agree... Any thoughts on this? Also, the color most recommended for painting out cabin car was the orange-red used by Red Caboose on their earlier runs! That's why it seems so odd that they changed it! Does anyone out there have an original FCC drift card? I only have a pool green card (Did the PRR have that many pools that they needed a color standard for them or was pool green used elsewhere?) Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > SUVCWORR@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 1:30 PM > To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; b.hom@att.net > Cc: asmiller@mitre.org; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color > > > In a message dated 10/2/2003 10:40:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > Now, the cars are about nine months overdue. Is it possible that the > > Chinese did such a horrible build-up job that the cars > > required > > repainting AFTER they were assembled? > > Jerry, > > Check the paint date on the cars. Beginning in 1953 the FCC was > darkened. For referrence check the color drift cards from the > PRRT&HS. The FCC card is much darker and more brown than the pre > '53 orange-red color. The color change predates the change to SK > paint schemes. It is theoreticaly possible to have both colors > in the MS scheme. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:09:40 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Bowser B6???? FYI: The B6 shows up in Bowser's ad in the Nov. RMC. The kit #528 is advertised at $ 189.95 (retail), and comes with lost wax super detail parts and can motor. The ad specifies estimated delivery of Sept. 2003. BTW the same ad features the N8 cabin car kits in a host of varities. Winter 2003 for availability. Nothing new here. JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:13:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29s MS Color --part1_11a.2901f836.2cae1925_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/02/2003 2:41:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robs@actel.com writes: > Did FCC really darken in '53? The date on the color drift card for freight car paint RED ref nos. 47-2383; 47-2386; 47-2387 and 47-3042 is actually October, 1952. It is definitely a darker redish brown. Regarding cabin cars, the color did not change at the same time. Cabin cars were delayed somewhat. Rich Orr. --part1_11a.2901f836.2cae1925_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/02/2003 2:41:31 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, robs@actel.com writes:


Did FCC really darken in '53? <= /BLOCKQUOTE>

The date on the color drift card for freight car paint RED ref nos. 47-2383;= 47-2386; 47-2387 and 47-3042 is actually October, 1952.  It is definit= ely a darker redish brown.  Regarding cabin cars, the color did not cha= nge at the same time.  Cabin cars were delayed somewhat. 

Rich Orr. --part1_11a.2901f836.2cae1925_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:33:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Key Imports N Scale Announcements From: Jerry Britton Key Imports has made two significant announcements for the N scale PRR modeler. Neither has an ETA yet and both are expected to hit the streets for about $799 each. First, the PRR K4 4-6-2 Pacific in ten versions: 1) Prewar Version, #8, w/ 110P75A Tender, Strap Pilot, Top Mounted Headlight, Brunswick Green 2) Prewar Version, #5491, w/ 110P75A Tender, Top Mounted Headlight, Brunswick Green 3) Prewar Version, #5409, 110P75A Tender, Top Mounted Headlight, Tuscan Red 4) Post 1947 Rebuilt Version, #1361, 130 P75 Tender, Cast Pilot, Modern Front End 5) Post 1947 Rebuilt Version, #3750, 110 P75A Tender, Cast Pilot, Modern Front End, As displayed at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. 6) 1936 Raymond Lowey Design, #3768, 180P75 Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Brunswick Green, Gold Stripes 7) 1940 Streamline Design, #1120 8) 1940 Streamline Design, #2665 9) 1940 Streamline Design, #3678 10) 1940 Streamline Design, #5338 Second, the PRR I1 2-10-0 Decapod in four versions: 1) I-1S #4293 w/ 210F82A Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Radio Equipped 2) I-1S #4305 w/ 90F82 Tender w/ 4 Wheel Trucks, Radio Equipped 3) I-1SA #1126 w/ 210F82A Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Non Radio Equipped 4) I-1SA #3720 w/ 90F82 Tender w/ 4 Wheel Trucks If you are interested, see your preferred authorized Key Imports dealer soon and place a reservation. The past several releases (T-1 and J-1) were sold out well before delivery! DISCLAIMER: I am a dealer of Key Imports products. I offer the above as a Public Service Announcement and do not mean to solicit business by providing this information. Please accept my apology if you were offended by the form of the announcement. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI T-1 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:12:06 +0000 A couple of questions for those of you with current BLI products. The T-1 will only have one motor if I read the technical information on their web site correctly since it onloy talks about one motor. I assume that the N&W A is built with a similar drive SO: 1. Do I interpret correctly that it is similar to a Rivarossi drive with connecting shafts between the drive trains and driven by one motor? 2. How does the sound sychronize? Is there any kind of physical trigger like the wheel wiper on a PFM system? 3. Would it be possible in the A to add a second motor and make the drive trains run independently like the Bowser? 4. Does the space exist in an A to do this? Thanks for any input. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] Chestnut Hill Branch Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:05:48 -0700 What ever happened with SEPTA's plan to abandon the Chestnut Hill branch? Joh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:51:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Key Imports HO Scale Announcements From: Jerry @ Pennsy Hey, gang, just got another mailer. Key Imports will be doing the I-1's in HO scale as well. No ETA and street price estimated to be around $1,299. Same road numbers and specs as N scale. On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 08:33 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Key Imports has made two significant announcements for the N scale PRR > modeler. Neither has an ETA yet and both are expected to hit the > streets for about $799 each. > > First, the PRR K4 4-6-2 Pacific in ten versions: > 1) Prewar Version, #8, w/ 110P75A Tender, Strap Pilot, Top Mounted > Headlight, Brunswick Green > 2) Prewar Version, #5491, w/ 110P75A Tender, Top Mounted Headlight, > Brunswick Green > 3) Prewar Version, #5409, 110P75A Tender, Top Mounted Headlight, > Tuscan Red > 4) Post 1947 Rebuilt Version, #1361, 130 P75 Tender, Cast Pilot, > Modern Front End > 5) Post 1947 Rebuilt Version, #3750, 110 P75A Tender, Cast Pilot, > Modern Front End, As displayed at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. > 6) 1936 Raymond Lowey Design, #3768, 180P75 Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, > Brunswick Green, Gold Stripes > 7) 1940 Streamline Design, #1120 > 8) 1940 Streamline Design, #2665 > 9) 1940 Streamline Design, #3678 > 10) 1940 Streamline Design, #5338 > > Second, the PRR I1 2-10-0 Decapod in four versions: > 1) I-1S #4293 w/ 210F82A Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Radio Equipped > 2) I-1S #4305 w/ 90F82 Tender w/ 4 Wheel Trucks, Radio Equipped > 3) I-1SA #1126 w/ 210F82A Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Non Radio Equipped > 4) I-1SA #3720 w/ 90F82 Tender w/ 4 Wheel Trucks > > If you are interested, see your preferred authorized Key Imports > dealer soon and place a reservation. The past several releases (T-1 > and J-1) were sold out well before delivery! > > DISCLAIMER: I am a dealer of Key Imports products. I offer the above > as a Public Service Announcement and do not mean to solicit business > by providing this information. Please accept my apology if you were > offended by the form of the announcement. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:25:30 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] PRR on PHL PBS 10/8/03 Channel 12, the local PBS station here in beautiful downtown Philadelphia, will be again be broadcasting their PRR program. Bill Morlitz Wednesday, October 8 at 8:00 p.m. PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD Beginning in 1846 and closing in 1970 as the biggest bankruptcy in US history, the Pennsylvania Railroad had an impact on the major events of the 20th century, including the Great Depression and World War II. Taking a look at the rise and fall of the Railroad, the WHYY production is an amazing story of social history as well, detailing the lives of the owners and top management and the people who actually laid the tracks, stoked the engines and threw the switches. (1 hour) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:09:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Status From: Jerry @ Pennsy Received the following from Lee English at Bowser regarding the overdue B6 steam loco.. > we have packed the first couple of loco kits. We are building them > now to > be sure all the parts and the insturctions are correct. I hope to be > shipping in 1 week if all is correct. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] The Keystone for Autumn 2003 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 00:06:09 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C38AD4.7AC92BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent issue of the Keystone! Reprinting the article from Trains was = a fantastic idea, good info on tenders with the promise of more to come, = and The Way It Was is very interesting. A couple of notes: 1) East of the Davis track pans at 60 mph and the fireman has to climb = over the coal pile and the slope sheet to check the water level in the = tank! And at this early date not even the trainphone antenna for a = handhold! 2) Whenever any of the modeling mags, especially Model Railroader, does = an article on track, we are reminded "Track switches, often called = "turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from electrical switches..." = (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr. Editor. If it is good enough for = the Pennsylvania Railroad as in Mr. Archdeacon's article, then it is = good enough for me. They aren't track switches after all; they really = are turnouts. So be it. A new axiom to join "No dashes in PRR freight car classes!": "A Turnout is a Turnout is a Turnout!" Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C38AD4.7AC92BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Excellent issue of the Keystone!  = Reprinting=20 the article from Trains was a fantastic idea, good info on tenders with = the=20 promise of more to come, and The Way It Was is very interesting.  A = couple=20 of notes:
 
1) East of the Davis track pans at 60 = mph and the=20 fireman has to climb over the coal pile and the slope sheet to check the = water=20 level in the tank! And at this early date not even the trainphone=20 antenna for a handhold!
 
2) Whenever any of the modeling mags, = especially=20 Model Railroader, does an article on track, we are reminded "Track=20 switches, often called "turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from=20 electrical switches..." (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr.=20 Editor. If it is good enough for the Pennsylvania Railroad = as in Mr.=20 Archdeacon's article, then it is good enough for me. They aren't track = switches=20 after all;  they really are turnouts.  So be = it.
 
A new axiom to join "No dashes in PRR = freight car=20 classes!":
 
"A Turnout is a Turnout is a = Turnout!"
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C38AD4.7AC92BD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:50:34 -0400 From: Phil Balles Subject: [PRR] E33 to E44 conversion All Has anyone attempted to use the Bachmann E33 trucks and underframe and put it under an old Alco brass E44 body - or even scratchbuild a new body? I just picked up an E33 yesterday - the truck spacing is dead on to the Alco model, but the body is shorter. Other than prr.railfan.net, has anyone seen detailed plans of an E44? Thanks for the help in advance Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 11:39:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] E33 to E44 conversion I believe that there were some plans of the E-44 in a Railroad Model Craftsman _many_ years ago. They were pretty rough, as I recall. Keep this discussion going, we need E-44's! E-33's may be nice but they just don't replace E-44's! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:14:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals --part1_115.298bd2ef.2cb19d76_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Yuze Gize, I just picked up the American Limited Wig Wag Grade Crossing Signal and I always associated them with Western Railroads. Did Pennsy use these on the system? Perhaps Al B. knows? Greg Martin --part1_115.298bd2ef.2cb19d76_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Yuze Gize,

I just picked up the American Limited Wig Wag Grade Crossing Signal and I al= ways associated them with Western Railroads. Did Pennsy use these on the sys= tem? Perhaps Al B. knows?

Greg Martin
 --part1_115.298bd2ef.2cb19d76_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:30:14 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C38B44.CF62C6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not just Western RR. I don't know about the PRR but the Boston & Maine = used them. Roy Breon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals Hey Yuze Gize, I just picked up the American Limited Wig Wag Grade Crossing Signal = and I always associated them with Western Railroads. Did Pennsy use = these on the system? Perhaps Al B. knows? Greg Martin ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C38B44.CF62C6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not just Western RR.  I don't know = about the=20 PRR but the Boston & Maine used them.
 
Roy Breon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 = 12:14=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade = crossing=20 Signals

Hey Yuze = Gize,

I=20 just picked up the American Limited Wig Wag Grade Crossing Signal and = I always=20 associated them with Western Railroads. Did Pennsy use these on the = system?=20 Perhaps Al B. knows?

Greg=20 Martin
------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C38B44.CF62C6E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:50:16 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C38B58.5EE11CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, There was a crossing west of Decatur, IN at Union, IN, on the Erie = Western ex. Erie with a "wig-wag" as late as 1979. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roy Breon=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals Not just Western RR. I don't know about the PRR but the Boston & = Maine used them. Roy Breon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals Hey Yuze Gize, I just picked up the American Limited Wig Wag Grade Crossing Signal = and I always associated them with Western Railroads. Did Pennsy use = these on the system? Perhaps Al B. knows? Greg Martin ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C38B58.5EE11CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,
 
There was a crossing west of Decatur, IN at Union, = IN, on the=20 Erie Western ex. Erie with a "wig-wag" as late as 1979.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roy Breon=20
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 = 1:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wig Wag = Grade crossing=20 Signals

Not just Western RR.  I don't = know about the=20 PRR but the Boston & Maine used them.
 
Roy Breon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com= =20 ; prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Sunday, October 05, = 2003 12:14=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade = crossing=20 Signals

Hey Yuze = Gize,

I=20 just picked up the American Limited Wig Wag Grade Crossing Signal = and I=20 always associated them with Western Railroads. Did Pennsy use these = on the=20 system? Perhaps Al B. knows?

Greg=20 Martin
------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C38B58.5EE11CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:58:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C38B59.84CBBA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg, et al., I don't recall ever seeing a wig wag grade crossing signal used on the PRR, nor of any standard drawings of it. But never, say never. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C38B59.84CBBA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Greg, et=20 al.,
 
I don't recall ever seeing a wig = wag=20 grade crossing signal used = on the=20 PRR, nor of any standard drawings of it. But never, say = never.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C38B59.84CBBA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:23:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Bennetts E8's Bennett, List, Anyone spot Bennetts E8's during tonights nationally televised Sunday Night Football? Returning from a commercial, the camera picked up Bennetts E Units crossing the Ft Wayne Bridge, (probably during the turnarond). It wa a night shot so all you could see was an outline but you sure could make out the lines of these locos. Not sure if it was live at that particular moment or on tape. Nice timing Bennett!.........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennetts E8's Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 23:08:03 -0400 Gary, List, As far as I know they turn the p-burgh trains west of the station at CP-Home MP 347.8 unless they were under a diferent set of rules. John Gary wrote: Bennett, List, Anyone spot Bennetts E8's during tonights nationally televised Sunday Night Football? Returning from a commercial, the camera picked up Bennetts E Units crossing the Ft Wayne Bridge, (probably during the turnarond). It wa a night shot so all you could see was an outline but you sure could make out the lines of these locos. Not sure if it was live at that particular moment or on tape. Nice timing Bennett!.........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 00:13:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Wig Wag Grade crossing Signals --part1_1c9.ff4706b.2cb245e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al Buchan replies... > Greg, et al., > > I don't recall ever seeing a wig wag grade crossing signal used on the PRR, > nor of any standard drawings of it. But never, say never. > > Al Well, I figured that might be the case as I can never remember seeing them in films or photos, but I will keep looking. I was hoping that it could be used, as I had mention I had picked up the American Limited Kit and it is just fabulous for the meager $7.00 I paid for it (no Sales Tax here in Oregon). It would have made an absolutely beautiful diorama and short article especially if we could have coupled it to some Pennsy drawings. Nevertheless, the kit is fabulous, go out and buy one for kicks and stick it right out front so everyone can see it and say, "Pennsy didn't have those..." 3^) Greg Martin --part1_1c9.ff4706b.2cb245e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al Buchan replies...

Greg, et al.,

I don't recall ever seeing a wig wag grade crossing signal used on the PRR,=20= nor of any standard drawings of it. But never, say never.

Al


Well, I figured that might be the case as I can never remember seeing them i= n films or photos, but I will keep looking.  I was hoping that it could= be used, as I had mention I had picked up the American Limited Kit and it i= s just fabulous for the meager $7.00 I paid for it (no Sales Tax here in Ore= gon). It would have made an absolutely beautiful diorama and short article e= specially if we could have coupled it to some Pennsy drawings. Nevertheless,= the kit is fabulous, go out and buy one for kicks and stick it right out fr= ont so everyone can see it and say, "Pennsy didn't have those..."  = ; 3^) 

Greg Martin --part1_1c9.ff4706b.2cb245e8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 00:48:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans Hello list, I just checked the Model Train Magazine index http://index.mrmag.com/ and there are articles about, but no plans of the E-44 in the index. Are dashes correct for PRR electric and steam classes (Ben Hom, please chime in on this...grin!)? Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:10:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans --part1_29.491bf9cd.2cb29982_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RMC did an article on kitbashing an E44 from AHM U25 bodies. It ran back in the 1960's but I cant be more specific than that. Bill --part1_29.491bf9cd.2cb29982_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RMC did an article on kitbashing an E44 from AHM U25 b= odies.  It ran back in the 1960's but I cant be more specific than that= .  Bill --part1_29.491bf9cd.2cb29982_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:40:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennetts E8's From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 10:23 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Anyone spot Bennetts E8's during tonights nationally televised > Sunday Night Football? Returning from a commercial, the camera picked > up > Bennetts E Units crossing the Ft Wayne Bridge, Guess there's only one way to top that, Bennett.... You leaning out the window of the cab saying "Are you ready for some football?" on Monday night!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 07:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans From: Jamie Bothwell Hi All, There is an article in the December 1961 RMC by William Schopp about etching your own E-44 in brass. I remember the article about bashing the U25 into an E-44, but I can't affix a date to it. Jamie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:00:00 -0400 Re: Are dashes correct for PRR electric and steam classes No. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Reed Kosmal" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennetts E8's Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:07:46 -0400 I did see them and didn't realize what they were. In fact I made a comment to myself as to what they were. Reed Kosmal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Bennetts E8's > Bennett, List, > > Anyone spot Bennetts E8's during tonights nationally televised > Sunday Night Football? Returning from a commercial, the camera picked up > Bennetts E Units crossing the Ft Wayne Bridge, (probably during the > turnarond). It wa a night shot so all you could see was an outline but > you sure could make out the lines of these locos. Not sure if it was > live at that particular moment or on tape. Nice timing > Bennett!.........Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennetts E8's Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:26:59 -0400 In an attempt to enhance the revenue for the Altoona Museum, the NS went out of their way to route the train to Pittsburgh via the Port Perry, the southside of Pittsburgh, the OC bridge, Island Ave, then over the Ft Wayne Bridge into the station. The folks from Altoona indicated that they believe that they had a most successful weekend. Hats off to NS for giving them the opportunity to do something "special". Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Bennetts E8's > Bennett, List, > > Anyone spot Bennetts E8's during tonights nationally televised > Sunday Night Football? Returning from a commercial, the camera picked up > Bennetts E Units crossing the Ft Wayne Bridge, (probably during the > turnarond). It wa a night shot so all you could see was an outline but > you sure could make out the lines of these locos. Not sure if it was > live at that particular moment or on tape. Nice timing > Bennett!.........Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Purdue University Railroad Club Modular Layout Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:27:10 +0000 On a slightly related topic, Purdue University's Railroad Club unveiled its modular DCC-controlled layout this past weekend. The modular layout, consists of 16 modules and formed an oval layout with approximate dimensions of 25' by 14'. As a former club member, I assisted in laying down the mainline roadbed and track early this summer. All modules have basic scenery but there are plans to do more. The layout was placed on the first floor of the student union. Since it was Homecoming weekend, there were a ton of people there. The club recieved more exposure on Saturday than probably in the last several years combined. But the news to report to all of you is the engines the the club was using were the BLI GG-1 on a passenger train and 2 double-headed Bachmann K-4's on the other train. If one did not know, one would have assumed that they at Penn State or University of Pittsburgh! I was thinking of you guys when I saw the trains in action. BTW, Purdue trounced Illinois 43-10. Ted Andrews Purdue Alum and Club member from 1983-1986 and then again from 1991-1993. _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:44:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennetts E8's From: Jerry Britton On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 10:26 AM, Bennett Levin wrote: > In an attempt to enhance the revenue for the Altoona Museum, the NS > went out > of their way to route the train to Pittsburgh via the Port Perry, the > southside of Pittsburgh, the OC bridge, Island Ave, then over the Ft > Wayne > Bridge into the station. The folks from Altoona indicated that they > believe > that they had a most successful weekend. > > Hats off to NS for giving them the opportunity to do something > "special". Excellent on both counts!!! Five days till the Renovo trip...and the long range forecast looks real nice! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler #3 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:07:37 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C38C34.B9B8CD30 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; Once again, we are asking for your input on The Keystone Modeler, this time on issue #3. The reason I ask is that we always appreciate your feedback. And we have made a number of big changes this time around (as we did with #2, based on your input). Although what feedback we've gotten has been greatly appreciated and quite positive, we can always use your expert opinions, as to whether or not we are giving you what you want, whether it interests you, or whether or not, for some of you, your silence is a good thing. We could particularly use your continued advice on subject matter. So, did you like the balance of proto versus model? Diagram versus text versus photo? The types of articles? Was the GR article too much? Too much on building? Are the techniques too "over the top"? Is the image quality good? Are you having trouble with getting it up in a timely manner, with load times, with viewing? Is it too long? And, do you have any more suggestions on future subjects? We are going to hit some of those you suggested pretty soon. Keeping in mind that some of these do require a lot of preparation. We are thinking about offering up an article on weathering. Based on several requests. Also, upgrading a plastic kit. And perhaps running one of the gondolas out of sequence for a scratchbuilding article. Are you up for that? We eagerly await your feedback. And, thanks again for reading. Elden Gatwood PRRT&HS Modeling Committee ------_=_NextPart_001_01C38C34.B9B8CD30 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Keystone Modeler #3

Hi all;

Once again, we are asking for your input on The = Keystone Modeler, this time on issue #3.  The reason I ask is that = we always appreciate your feedback. And we have made a number of big = changes this time around (as we did with #2, based on your input). = Although what feedback we've gotten has been greatly appreciated and = quite positive, we can always use your expert opinions, as to whether = or not we are giving you what you want, whether it interests you, or = whether or not, for some of you, your silence is a good thing.  We = could particularly use your continued advice on subject = matter.

So, did you like the balance of proto versus = model?  Diagram versus text versus photo?  The types of = articles?  Was the GR article too much?  Too much on = building?  Are the techniques too "over the top"?  = Is the image quality good?  Are you having trouble with getting it = up in a timely manner, with load times, with viewing?  Is it too = long?

And, do you have any more suggestions on future = subjects?  We are going to hit some of those you suggested pretty = soon.  Keeping in mind that some of these do require a lot of = preparation.

We are thinking about offering up an article on = weathering.  Based on several requests.  Also, upgrading a = plastic kit.  And perhaps running one of the gondolas out of = sequence for a scratchbuilding article.  Are you up for = that?

We eagerly await your feedback.  And, thanks = again for reading.

Elden Gatwood
PRRT&HS Modeling Committee


------_=_NextPart_001_01C38C34.B9B8CD30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:06:55 -0400 From: Rod Schaffter Subject: [PRR] Re: The Keystone for Autumn 2003 Stephen speaketh thus: > 2) Whenever any of the modeling mags, especially Model Railroader, does = > an article on track, we are reminded "Track switches, often called = > "turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from electrical switches..." = > (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr. Editor. If it is good enough for = > the Pennsylvania Railroad as in Mr. Archdeacon's article, then it is = > good enough for me. They aren't track switches after all; they really = > are turnouts. So be it. I wholeheartedly agree, and so does Atlantic Track and Turnout: http://www.atlantictrack.com/ Cheers, Rod Schaffter -- The Ten Commandments display was removed recently from the Alabama Supreme Court building. There was a good reason for the move: You can't post "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of Lawyers and Politicians without creating a hostile work environment. --"E" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The Keystone for Autumn 2003 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:35:02 -0400 Technically, the "switch" is the part of the "turnout" that moves, a.k.a. the "point rails". The engineerring department tends to call the whole thing, "turnouts" while the train crews call them "switches". Gregg Mahlkov Per Rod Schaffter: Stephen speaketh thus: 2) Whenever any of the modeling mags, especially Model Railroader, does = an article on track, we are reminded "Track switches, often called = "turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from electrical switches..." = (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr. Editor. If it is good enough for = the Pennsylvania Railroad as in Mr. Archdeacon's article, then it is = good enough for me. They aren't track switches after all; they really = are turnouts. So be it. I wholeheartedly agree, and so does Atlantic Track and Turnout: http://www.atlantictrack.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:33:38 -0400 From: Phil Balles Subject: Re: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans Jamie / et al I have a copy of the article about bashing the E44 from a U25C - the guy who did it left the fuel tank on (modelling in those days was a bit more laid back....). As for the etching article, I've never heard about that one - does anyone have a copy? As for plans, does anyone have any idea if the RR Museum of PA has any E44 plans - they have the 4465 and somebody gave the paint diagrams to Juniata to paint it. For that matter, who would I talk to at the museum about it? Thanks again Phil Jamie Bothwell wrote: > Hi All, > There is an article in the December 1961 RMC by William Schopp > about etching your own E-44 in brass. I remember the article about > bashing the U25 into an E-44, but I can't affix a date to it. > Jamie > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:57:26 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch In a message dated 10/6/03 1:14:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 2) Whenever any of the modeling mags, especially Model Railroader, does = > an article on track, we are reminded "Track switches, often called = > "turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from electrical switches..." = > (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr. Editor. If it is good enough for = > the Pennsylvania Railroad as in Mr. Archdeacon's article, then it is = > good enough for me. They aren't track switches after all; they really = > are turnouts. So be it. > > A new axiom to join "No dashes in PRR freight car classes!": > > "A Turnout is a Turnout is a Turnout!" > > Steve Hoxie > Sorry Steve, No hope for peace in the turnout wars here... 1. The Walthers catalog and MR's editorial style standards have historically called them turnouts, probably because that's what they're called in the NMRA Glossary. The October MR article by Jim Hediger uses turnout almost throughout. However, the text on page 92 is careful to start with the phrase "Track switch" and then introduce "turnout" as the term the article will use. Notice nothing at all is said there about prototype terminology. Even the Walthers catalog has to cross-reference turnouts as "switches, track" so you can find the page number. However, in the real world, all model railroaders I know call them switches. 2. I believe Mr. Archdeacon's Keystone article uses "turnout" 5 times. It also uses "switch" twice and "switch points" 4 more times. And a caption uses "switch" another time. Sounds to me like "switch" and "turnout" are close equivalents here. 3. In a friend's L&N collection, I find that the corresponding blueprints for trackwork are labelled "turnouts and crossovers"; these drawings were issued various dates between 1905 and 1911. 4. The 1896 Lines West Signal Department manual makes numerous references to switches, and none I can find to turnouts. Some sample phrases in the 1896 book: "One lever may be used to throw one or more switches", "one or more locks". But not "a switch and a lock..." "Facing point locks must be used on all switches" "Front rods must project beyond point of switch" "Bolt locks must have an independent connection to the switch points" BTW, I was interested to see that the responsible official signing the front of this manual was L.F. Loree, Lines West General Manager, of later fame on the B&O and the Delaware & Hudson. I suppose this manual will be held up as one more crime against nature by the renegades west of Pittsburgh , but it does leave us with credible "Pennsy" sources that used both definitions. 3. Have you ever heard of a "turnoutman"? Me neither. But there were switchmen. 4. Pennsy's premier supplier of signals and interlocking equipment was not named "Union Turnout and Signal". I'm ready to believe that the "turnout" designation has come to us from civil engineering manuals. I'm fairly sure the NMRA attempted to adopt that usage in an effort to distinguish track switches from electrical switches in model railroading. However, it is clearly not a term in everyday use -- at least within my hearing. If there were a Webster's dictionary for model railroading/railfanning, I suspect "turnout" would be defined as "an archaic civil engineering term." If it's any consolation, I do agree that there are no dashes in PRR classes. At least, that's the practice in whatever PRR documents I've seen. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:57:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] Maybe a switch is still a switch --part1_9c.3624e280.2cb37786_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/6/03 1:14:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 2) Whenever any of the modeling mags, especially Model Railroader, does = > an article on track, we are reminded "Track switches, often called = > "turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from electrical switches..." = > (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr. Editor. If it is good enough for = > the Pennsylvania Railroad as in Mr. Archdeacon's article, then it is = > good enough for me. They aren't track switches after all; they really = > are turnouts. So be it. > > A new axiom to join "No dashes in PRR freight car classes!": > > "A Turnout is a Turnout is a Turnout!" > > Steve Hoxie > Sorry Steve, No hope for peace in the turnout wars here... 1. The Walthers catalog and MR's editorial style standards have historically called them turnouts, probably because that's what they're called in the NMRA Glossary. The October MR article by Jim Hediger uses turnout almost throughout. However, the text on page 92 is careful to start with the phrase "Track switch" and then introduce "turnout" as the term the article will use. Notice nothing at all is said there about prototype terminology. Even the Walthers catalog has to cross-reference turnouts as "switches, track" so you can find the page number. However, in the real world, all model railroaders I know call them switches. 2. I believe Mr. Archdeacon's Keystone article uses "turnout" 5 times. It also uses "switch" twice and "switch points" 4 more times. And a caption uses "switch" another time. Sounds to me like "switch" and "turnout" are close equivalents here. 3. In a friend's L&N collection, I find that the corresponding blueprints for trackwork are labelled "turnouts and crossovers"; these drawings were issued various dates between 1905 and 1911. 4. The 1896 Lines West Signal Department manual makes numerous references to switches, and none I can find to turnouts. Some sample phrases in the 1896 book: "One lever may be used to throw one or more switches", "one or more locks". But not "a switch and a lock..." "Facing point locks must be used on all switches" "Front rods must project beyond point of switch" "Bolt locks must have an independent connection to the switch points" BTW, I was interested to see that the responsible official signing the front of this manual was L.F. Loree, Lines West General Manager, of later fame on the B&O and the Delaware & Hudson. I suppose this manual will be held up as one more crime against nature by the renegades west of Pittsburgh , but it does leave us with credible "Pennsy" sources that used both definitions. 3. Have you ever heard of a "turnoutman"? Me neither. But there were switchmen. 4. Pennsy's premier supplier of signals and interlocking equipment was not named "Union Turnout and Signal". I'm ready to believe that the "turnout" designation has come to us from civil engineering manuals. I'm fairly sure the NMRA attempted to adopt that usage in an effort to distinguish track switches from electrical switches in model railroading. However, it is clearly not a term in everyday use -- at least within my hearing. If there were a Webster's dictionary for model railroading/railfanning, I suspect "turnout" would be defined as "an archaic civil engineering term." If it's any consolation, I do agree that there are no dashes in PRR classes. At least, that's the practice in whatever PRR documents I've seen. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_9c.3624e280.2cb37786_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/6/03 1= :14:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


2) Whenever any of the modeling= mags, especially Model Railroader, does =3D
an article on track, we are reminded "Track switches, often called =3D
"turnouts" by modelers to distinguish them from electrical switches..." =3D<= BR> (MR Oct 2003 pg. 92) Not so fast, Mr. Editor. If it is good enough for =3D the Pennsylvania Railroad as in Mr. Archdeacon's article, then it is =3D
good enough for me. They aren't track switches after all;  they really=20= =3D
are turnouts.  So be it.

A new axiom to join "No dashes in PRR freight car classes!":

"A Turnout is a Turnout is a Turnout!"

Steve Hoxie


Sorry Steve,

No hope for peace in the turnout wars here...

1.  The Walthers catalog and MR's editorial style standards have histor= ically called them turnouts, probably because that's what they're called in=20= the NMRA Glossary.  The October MR article by Jim Hediger uses turnout=20= almost throughout.  However, the text on page 92 is careful to start wi= th the phrase "Track switch" and then introduce "turnout" as the term the ar= ticle will use.  Notice nothing at all is said there about prototype te= rminology.  Even the Walthers catalog has to cross-reference turnouts a= s "switches, track" so you can find the page number.  However, in the r= eal world, all model railroaders I know call them switches.

2.  I believe Mr. Archdeacon's Keystone article uses "turnout" 5 times.=   It also uses "switch" twice and "switch points" 4 more times.  A= nd a caption uses "switch" another time.  Sounds to me like "switch" an= d "turnout" are close equivalents here.

3.  In a friend's L&N collection, I find that the corresponding blu= eprints for trackwork are labelled "turnouts and crossovers"; these drawings= were issued various dates between 1905 and 1911.

4.  The 1896 Lines West Signal Department manual makes numerous referen= ces to switches, and none I can find to turnouts.  Some sample phrases=20= in the 1896 book:
"One lever may be used to throw one or more switches", "one or more locks".<= BR> But not "a switch and a lock..."
"Facing point locks must be used on all switches"
"Front rods must project beyond point of switch"
"Bolt locks must have an independent connection to the switch points"

BTW, I was interested to see that the responsible official signing the front= of this manual was L.F. Loree, Lines West General Manager, of later fame on= the B&O and the Delaware & Hudson.

I suppose this manual will be held up as one more crime against nature by th= e renegades west of Pittsburgh <G>, but it does leave us with credible= "Pennsy" sources that used both definitions.

3.  Have you ever heard of a "turnoutman"?  Me neither.  But=20= there were switchmen.

4.  Pennsy's premier supplier of signals and interlocking equipment was= not named "Union Turnout and Signal".

I'm ready to believe that the "turnout" designation has come to us from civi= l engineering manuals.  I'm fairly sure the NMRA attempted to adopt tha= t usage in an effort to distinguish track switches from electrical switches=20= in model railroading.  However, it is clearly not a term in everyday us= e -- at least within my hearing.  If there were a Webster's dictionary=20= for model railroading/railfanning, I suspect "turnout" would be defined as "= an archaic civil engineering term."

If it's any consolation, I do agree that there are no dashes in PRR classes.=   At least, that's the practice in whatever PRR documents I've seen.
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_9c.3624e280.2cb37786_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:09:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Maybe a switch is still a switch From: Jerry @ Pennsy I scanned thousands of pages of Pennsy docs in creating my 1954 CD-ROM. I have no recollection of references to "turnouts". References to "switches" are in every Employee Timetable. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:05:49 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch The PRR CE78J, "Specifications for Construction and Maintenance of Track" refers to them as Turnouts. As I said before turnouts have two major components, a switch and a frog w/ guard rails. T&E crews referred to them as switches (as did MW guys) as that was the only part of the turnout they could operate. And they used switch keys because the frogs weren't locked and didn't have keys. And yes one man easily threw a switch. However, a turnout could also be thrown but it took several MW men with lining bars. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:05:49 -0400 The PRR CE78J, "Specifications for Construction and Maintenance of Track" refers to them as Turnouts. As I said before turnouts have two major components, a switch and a frog w/ guard rails. T&E crews referred to them as switches (as did MW guys) as that was the only part of the turnout they could operate. And they used switch keys because the frogs weren't locked and didn't have keys. And yes one man easily threw a switch. However, a turnout could also be thrown but it took several MW men with lining bars. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 00:00:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch In a broader context than just PRR, I have a copy of the 1948 Railway Engineering & Maintenance Cyclopedia, which has an extensive section on switches and related hardware. The section is entitled "Switches, Frogs, and Guard Rails," but when you look at it carefully, "switch" always refers to the movable rails and associated parts. I think this pretty much agrees with Al's assessment of the usage: The definition is: "A switch consists of a pair of switch rails, which are designated as right hand or left hand switch points according as they are designed for the right or left hand side of the turnout; one or more rods to hold the points in correct relation with each other and to prevent their rising; and gage and switch plates to support the switch rails at the proper elevation with reference to the stock rails and also, in conjunction with plain or adjustable rail braces to maintain the correct position of the stock rails. Heel blocks . . . are accessory parts of the switch." Later on, a turnout is naturally defined as an arrangement of a switch and a frog with closure rails. I had always thought that the precise term was "split switch turnout," and the term "split switch" appears on the AREA drawings in the Cyclopedia. The alternative, of course, would be a stub turnout (or would that be "stub switch turnout" perhaps?). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sd40-blue@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Another outstanding performance! Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 04:09:18 +0000 My head is still spinning from the weekend! Thanks to Bennett and Eric for another outstanding weekend of trips. I know they can't do it alone and I would like to thank all who were involved. The car hosts were very friendly and polite, Amtrak crews and station staff were friendly, polite and professional and the museum staff was at the top of their game. I'm not sure why Norfolk Southern gets a bad rap, they really seem to roll out the red carpet. Freight crews were generous with the air horn and happy to give a wave. I railfanned at numerous locations from Friday morning through Sunday evening and got a wave or a toot from every train! I rode the first trip on Sunday morning. I'm amazed that I see something different every year! Can't wait till next year! -Erik- > In an attempt to enhance the revenue for the Altoona Museum, the NS went out > of their way to route the train to Pittsburgh via the Port Perry, the > southside of Pittsburgh, the OC bridge, Island Ave, then over the Ft Wayne > Bridge into the station. The folks from Altoona indicated that they believe > that they had a most successful weekend. > > Hats off to NS for giving them the opportunity to do something "special". > > > Bennett > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Mittner" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:23 PM > Subject: [PRR] Bennetts E8's > > > > Bennett, List, > > > > Anyone spot Bennetts E8's during tonights nationally televised > > Sunday Night Football? Returning from a commercial, the camera picked up > > Bennetts E Units crossing the Ft Wayne Bridge, (probably during the > > turnarond). It wa a night shot so all you could see was an outline but > > you sure could make out the lines of these locos. Not sure if it was > > live at that particular moment or on tape. Nice timing > > Bennett!.........Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > > Work! > > > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 07:49:14 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch So the solution to the dilema is that both terms are correct.......to a point! Since I'm a T&E guy, I call 'em switches. JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:54:50 +0000 I saw that article and made some changes to the directions. I used an Athearn SDP-40 for the body as it was much closer to the shape in my opinion. I stripped the roof and put a styrene overlay to represent the E44 roof. The Athearn cab roof was removed and replaced with a piece of styrene and a built up styrene nose was used. At that time you could buy faivley pantographs from Bachman and I bought about two dozen so I would have them in the future. The only hard part of the conversion was removal of all of the U25C frame in front of the motor so it would slide up into the cab of the SDP40. I also cut down the fuel tank as the E44 has a box like device underneath the frame in that area. IT still left me with theRivarossi three pole motor but it looked ok. I eventually made five of them and got pretty good toward the end. > Jamie / et al > > I have a copy of the article about bashing the E44 from a U25C - the guy > who did it left the fuel tank on (modelling in those days was a bit more > laid back....). As for the etching article, I've never heard about that > one - does anyone have a copy? > > As for plans, does anyone have any idea if the RR Museum of PA has any > E44 plans - they have the 4465 and somebody gave the paint diagrams to > Juniata to paint it. For that matter, who would I talk to at the museum > about it? > > Thanks again > Phil > > > > Jamie Bothwell wrote: > > > Hi All, > > There is an article in the December 1961 RMC by William Schopp > > about etching your own E-44 in brass. I remember the article about > > bashing the U25 into an E-44, but I can't affix a date to it. > > Jamie > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:40:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Dearth of E44 plans Just to recap this, did we ever learn the dates of the (RMC ?) issues that E44 articles appeared in? Sorry if someone mentioned and I missed it, I think someone said 1961? But my own collection doesn't go back that far, and I definitely remember some plans, must've been later. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] First K4s 1737 Project Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:07:54 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C38CBA.E00908C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the list at large: I am contemplating a project of backdating a PFM K4s to represent 1737 in her early years. The specific model I am starting with is already without the "beauty treatment", mechanical lubrication, stoker and other modernizations. Any tips on paint details, crosshead details, balanced piston rods, pilot, headlamp, tender designation and screw reverse would be much appreciated. If anyone has any electronic format photos of K4s 1737 in her AS BUILT configuration and would be willing to share them with me I would greatly appreciate such gracious generosity. (Your heart is in the right place, but please do not reference photos in books. I cannot get to any of my books for reasons too numerous to mention) Please and Thank You, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com Just sitting around at MP 86.4 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C38CBA.E00908C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
To the = list at=20 large:
 
I am = contemplating a=20 project of backdating a PFM K4s to represent 1737 in her early = years.  The=20 specific model I am starting with is already without the "beauty = treatment",=20 mechanical lubrication, stoker and other modernizations. Any tips on = paint=20 details, crosshead details, balanced piston rods, pilot, headlamp, = tender=20 designation and screw reverse would be much appreciated. If anyone has any = electronic=20 format photos of K4s 1737 in her AS BUILT configuration and would be = willing to=20 share them with me I would greatly appreciate such gracious=20 generosity. (Your heart is in the right place, but please do not = reference=20 photos in books.  I cannot get to any of my books for reasons too = numerous=20 to mention)
 
Please = and Thank=20 You,
 
Harry=20 Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com
 
Just = sitting around=20 at MP 86.4
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C38CBA.E00908C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:13:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Early Turnouts --part1_192.20bfad5f.2cb42410_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alexander's "Along the Main Line" quotes a report of the Superintendent of the Philadelphia and Columbia from the 1830's wherein he calls them "Turnouts" Of course that is merely a predecessor road but it did become the Main Line. Remember the old rule the Standards of the "Standard RY" always had non-standard exceptions. LOL Jerry F. --part1_192.20bfad5f.2cb42410_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander's "Along the Main Line" quotes a report of t= he Superintendent of the Philadelphia and Columbia from the 1830's wherein h= e calls them "Turnouts" Of course that is merely a predecessor road but it d= id become the Main Line. Remember the old rule the Standards of the "Standar= d RY" always had non-standard exceptions. LOL Jerry F. --part1_192.20bfad5f.2cb42410_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mike brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:05:53 -0400 I am a MW guy that will be replacing a real "number 8 guarded double crossover" this weekend at the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority ( Metro's Red Line)...The replacement will be at the Rhode Island interlocking, just a block off Rhode Island Ave in Washington D.C... Anyone in the area want to see some MW action just give me an e-mail... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Witcofsky" To: "Al Buchan" ; ; "PRR Signaling" ; "PRR-Talk" Cc: ; "Rick Tipton" Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch > So the solution to the dilema is that both terms are correct.......to a > point! > > Since I'm a T&E guy, I call 'em switches. > > JW > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:36:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch Here is one for you..............I worked for a while on the IC. At Hattiesburg MS a feed mill stopped getting cars (one or two a month) The IC removed the main line turnout. Now the feed mill said "we all goin to get them cars again" So IC didn't want to replace turnout. So every time mill gets a car they cut the rail (joint bars ) and swing the main line over a few feet to match up with the siding! First time I went past thought I was seeing things.......car in siding, no turnout! Only on the IC! ....................Boomer ----- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:59:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch Operating department always used term 'switch" i.e. Eng. 1600 run extra MG to switch 1, Lambertville........................Boomer ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:02:28 GMT Subject: [PRR] FA-2 From: PennsyRRfan I am looking for a lifelike proto2k FA-2 shell, with single headlight and cross-wise turbo stack. Undec ok, PRR preferred. Please contact me off line. TIA, Paul R. Greenwald PRRT&HS 1802 Phila Chapter 2009 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Phlia. Chapter meeting Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:18:39 -0400 Hi All, I moved this past weekend and misplaced my meeting notice. When is the Phila. chapter PRR T&HS meeting? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:35:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Phlia. Chapter meeting PHL Chapter meeting is Saturday October 18th - Drexel Hill - modelers meeting before hand. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Phlia. Chapter meeting Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:35:11 -0400 PHL Chapter meeting is Saturday October 18th - Drexel Hill - modelers meeting before hand. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ron Dugas Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 18:25:46 -0700 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Maybe a switch is still a switch Hi All, Just to add to the discussion: According to my copy of the US Steel Trackwork Catalog, First Edition, 1/1958 I see that a "Switch" is actually a part of a "Turnout", specifically the moving part, composed primarily of a "Switch Rod Number 1", a "Switch Rod Number 2", a "Right Hand Switch Point", and a "Left Hand Switch Point". So both terms are correct, depending on what you are discussing, however, they are not synonymous. There is also additional hardware associated with "Switches", such as "Plates", "Risers", "Clips", "Heel Blocks", "Stops", Etc... The Catalog specifies which "Switch" to use with which "Turnout". For example No. 5 through No. 8 "Turnouts" call for an 11'0" "Switch" while No. 9 and No. 10 "Turnouts" call for a 15'0" "Switch". Further, this is not at odds with assertions previously voiced: A "Switch" key would lock the "Moving " part of the "Turnout" and a "Switch Tender" would operate said "Moving" part. Hope this is not too nit picky in the discussion. Respectfully, Ron. P.S. I am not sure which list this topic started on so I have narrowed my response to the two most likely lists so as to minimize the number of times everyone has to see this. R. R. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 18:25:46 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Maybe a switch is still a switch Hi All, Just to add to the discussion: According to my copy of the US Steel Trackwork Catalog, First Edition, 1/1958 I see that a "Switch" is actually a part of a "Turnout", specifically the moving part, composed primarily of a "Switch Rod Number 1", a "Switch Rod Number 2", a "Right Hand Switch Point", and a "Left Hand Switch Point". So both terms are correct, depending on what you are discussing, however, they are not synonymous. There is also additional hardware associated with "Switches", such as "Plates", "Risers", "Clips", "Heel Blocks", "Stops", Etc... The Catalog specifies which "Switch" to use with which "Turnout". For example No. 5 through No. 8 "Turnouts" call for an 11'0" "Switch" while No. 9 and No. 10 "Turnouts" call for a 15'0" "Switch". Further, this is not at odds with assertions previously voiced: A "Switch" key would lock the "Moving " part of the "Turnout" and a "Switch Tender" would operate said "Moving" part. Hope this is not too nit picky in the discussion. Respectfully, Ron. P.S. I am not sure which list this topic started on so I have narrowed my response to the two most likely lists so as to minimize the number of times everyone has to see this. R. R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:05:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Maybe a switch is still a switch Well we haven't talked about Slip Switches. My Cyclopedia seems to define a Slip Switch as two (or four) switches within the limits of a crossing, but calls the whole assembly a Single or Double Slip Switch. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:37:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennetts E8's I noticed a little addition to appearance of the PRR E8s at the Railfest. They now wear "RADIO" decals just as most of the PRR diesels and electrics did in the early 60s to merger. Real Nice! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:20:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Turnout vs. Switches --part1_32.3eee458d.2cb4ea7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The term turnout goes back to the early days of the railways in England making its way to the "Colonies" with the imported British railway technology. The British coined the moveable points as the switch and the entire assembly as the turnout. On the Reading the terminology in the early 70's was that and today on the NS it also is the same. From a friend working in the UP bridge engineering dept., again the same terminology is still in effect. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_32.3eee458d.2cb4ea7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   The term turnout goes back to the early days of= the railways in England making its way to the "Colonies" with the imported=20= British railway technology.  The British coined the moveable points as=20= the switch and the entire assembly as the turnout.  On the Reading the=20= terminology in the early 70's was that and today on the NS it also is the sa= me.  From a friend working in the UP bridge engineering dept., again th= e same terminology is still in effect.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_32.3eee458d.2cb4ea7e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:24:54 -0400 But, Circular 109-M lists the "E-44" with the dash similar to a diesel! All of the other electrics are dash less, like steam engines but not the E-44! Gotta love the Pennsy's consistency! The equipment diagram also has the - in E-44 (see http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=e44.gif ) Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 8:00 AM To: 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans Re: Are dashes correct for PRR electric and steam classes No. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:36:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] E44 from U25C kitbash Hello list, Just checked the model train magazine index http://www.mrmag.com Railroad Model Craftsman ran an article on kitbashing the E44 from a U25C in the July 1966 issue; started on page 36. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:44:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Online photo of K4s 1737 as built Harry, list, Try this URL on for size. It's from Clint Chamberlain's Railroading in the Northeast site; Jerry's Keystone Crossings site has a link to it. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-s1737a.jpg There is another photo of 1737 on Chamberlain's web site; it's actually the 3750 masquerading as the 1737. Gary Mittner's awesome K4s web page (also accessable through Keystone Crossings) has a picture of K4s 1737 as she appeared in the 30s, but there were significant differences between her configuration then and her as-built state: 90P70 tender, removal of the extended piston rods, cutouts in the cab roof, electric lights, etc. http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/images/k41737.JPG Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv brice" Subject: FW: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:23:26 +1000 Even more to a point than you might think, Joe, in England where I grew up, they used the word 'points' interchangeably with 'turnout' Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' PRRT&HS member #6781 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Joe Witcofsky Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2003 9:49 pm To: Al Buchan; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR Signaling; PRR-Talk Cc: fish_76@webtv.net; Rick Tipton Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Maybe a switch is still a switch So the solution to the dilema is that both terms are correct.......to a point! Since I'm a T&E guy, I call 'em switches. JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:39:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] E44 vs E-44 0100,0100,0100To add fuel to the fire (can we do that with electric motors? well GG1s had boilers . . .), the November Trains article has "E33" in the story . . . but hedging their bets, "E-33" on the cover! Oh well, nobody's perfect. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Winter Keystone surprise Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:24:36 +0000 It was a pleasant surprise when my Keystone finally showed up in Chicago yesterday to find a picture I submitted to Chuck Blardone on P.14 of my great grandfathers crew and their A3 #632. If anyone would care for a digital copy of the picture I would be glad to send it. It is 57 KB as a JPEG and 736KB as a Bitmap. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:18:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Phlia. Chapter meeting Hi All, I moved this past weekend and misplaced my meeting notice. When is the Phila. chapter PRR T&HS meeting? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Weinschenker" Subject: [PRR] Waynesburg & Washington RR Book Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:11:03 -0400 Just wanted to inform the list that my new book on the Waynesburg & Washington RR will be available late next week. The soft covers will be released first with the hardbacks being released by the end of October. The soft covers will retail for $33 (postpaid) and hardbacks for $55 (postpaid). The hardback is a limited edition, signed and numbered volume. Half of the hardback press run is pre-sold, so contact me offline ASAP to reserve your copy! The book contains over 185 previously unpublished photos, maps, and history. Thank you. JIM Jim Weinschenker 775 Race Street Waynesburg, PA 15370 M2FQ Publications, Accounts Manager http://www.lightirondigest.com/ http://www.narrowtracks.com/wwrr/index.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 01:19:26 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 question Hello all: I just picked my BLI GG1 tonight and I've been having a problem with the lead truck jumping on the FROG of some Atlas Mark III switches (no, not the points, the frog). Anybody else have a problem with this? If so, what's the fix? Thanks in advance for any info. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:50:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 question From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:19 AM, Jeff Warner wrote: > I just picked my BLI GG1 tonight and I've been having a problem with > the lead truck jumping on the FROG of some Atlas Mark III switches > (no, not the points, the frog). Anybody else have a problem with > this? If so, what's the fix? Do you have an NMRA gauge? Check the wheel gauge. I had a similar problem in N scale with Atlas Code 55. The turnouts were correct, but not very forgiving. The wheels needed slight adjustment and then they worked fine. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 08:37:02 -0400 From: James F Shimer Subject: [PRR] oil fired locomotives My dad saw a photo of E6 no.13 which was oil fired. Did the PRR try oil firing on any other steam engines? Fred Shimer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:59:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] oil fired locomotives From: Bruce Smith On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 07:37 AM, James F Shimer wrote: > My dad saw a photo of E6 no.13 which was oil fired. Did the PRR try oil > firing on any other steam engines? > Fred Shimer > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Fred, A quick search of the PRR-talk archives shows that at least one B6sb and 9 L1s locos were also oil fired. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:10:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rick Maguire's Layout From: Jerry Britton Who can tell me something about Rick Maguire's layout, in southeastern PA? He's on the open house list this year and it says the layout will be razed -- for moving -- following the open house. I seem to know the name, but not the "where". Does he do PRR, or what? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] oil fired locomotives Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:14:05 +0000 Weren't the C-1's assigned to Washington DC oil fired also? I seem to recall a photo to that effect in Pennsy Power with the biggest slopeback tender ever made. > > On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 07:37 AM, James F Shimer wrote: > > > My dad saw a photo of E6 no.13 which was oil fired. Did the PRR try oil > > firing on any other steam engines? > > Fred Shimer > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > Fred, > > A quick search of the PRR-talk archives shows that at least one B6sb > and 9 L1s locos were also oil fired. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Train Show/Sale List, That time of year again. The Beaver County Model Railroad and Historical Society in Western Pa, is holding their Fall Train Flea Market this Sunday, Oct 12th from 10am to 3pm. Aprox 90 Tables of MR stuff of all Scales and the best Dang French Fries from the Kitchen money can buy! Location is at the CENTER STAGE...1495 Broadhead Rd... Monaca, Pa. 15061 So if your in Western Pa and on Sunday, which looks like a rainy Sunday, stop on in and see if there is anything you can use. Steelers play a late game so you probably will have some free time. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:29:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa difference From: Bruce Smith Morning Y'all, In trying to decide if the newly announced Key HO I1 might be of interest to me, I looked at the following two locos (of the 4 announced): I-1sa #1126, 210F82A Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Non Radio Equipped I-1sa #3720, 90F82 Tender w/ 4 Wheel Trucks , Non Radio Equipped According to Jerry, the previous N-scale versions of these have the "old" front end (which I want). I looked last night and the I1sa was THE subclass of I1 used on the Philadelphia division in 1945, but...In November 1, 1944 MP 229, both 1126 and 3720 were listed as class I1s, not I1sa and were assigned to the Pittsburg division. So, what are the visible external differences between an I1s and an I1sa? Any idea of the conversion date for these locos from I1s to I1sa? Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:58:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Anyone Modeling Northern Central Branch in N Scale? From: Jerry Britton Anyone modeling the Northern Central Branch in N scale -- specifically, between Baltimore and Harrisburg? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:55:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Triumph VI From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement... I got a call last night that "Triumph VI" is expected to ship on October 16th. This volume covers the Maryland Division. Volume Seven, slated for next fall, should be on the Northern Division. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:36:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa difference From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" The differences are in cut off and the like. One of the Pennsy Power books (II?) has a comparative table. A lot of external modifications were made to a lot of the I1 engines over time. A second compressor was added on the right side, the right air tank was increased in diameter and was moved to under the cab, lights were moved from the pilot beam to the smoke box, the head light and generator positions were swapped, a smoke lifter was added behind the stack, etc., etc. I have a 1947 photo of 1126 showing lights on the pilot beam and a front mounted light, and the engine has a 4 axle tender. In Carlton's Pennsy Steam A to T, page 90, taken in 1955, 1126 is listed as an "sa" and has the light on top of the smokebox and lights moved to the smokebox. This shot is head on, so I can't see the tender. There were so many external changes made to specific engines that one practically has to have a photo of the engine taken in the era one is modeling if one wants to be prototypical. What is an "old" front end?? The first I1 engines had no pilot mounted air tanks, but this was changed very early. Pittsburgh has an "h" at the end; the others (Texas, Kansas) don't :-) Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Bruce Smith >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa difference >Date: Thu, 09 Oct, 2003, 8:29 > > Morning Y'all, > > In trying to decide if the newly announced Key HO I1 might be of > interest to me, I looked at the following two locos (of the 4 > announced): > > I-1sa #1126, 210F82A Tender w/ 6 Wheel Trucks, Non Radio Equipped > I-1sa #3720, 90F82 Tender w/ 4 Wheel Trucks , Non Radio Equipped > > According to Jerry, the previous N-scale versions of these have the > "old" front end (which I want). I looked last night and the I1sa was > THE subclass of I1 used on the Philadelphia division in 1945, but...In > November 1, 1944 MP 229, both 1126 and 3720 were listed as class I1s, > not I1sa and were assigned to the Pittsburg division. > > So, what are the visible external differences between an I1s and an > I1sa? Any idea of the conversion date for these locos from I1s to I1sa? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:17:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: E-44 Plan Sort of ? -------------------------------1065716254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en There is a nice drawing (side only) of an E-44 in THE GE OPERATING MANUAL fo= r=20 PRR Class E-44 Rectifier Type Locomotive. I do not know the scale but it=20 appears close 3/16" S Gauge Scale. It is a cutaway so not all door detail ca= n be=20 seen.=E2=80=A6 The drawing shows the motor to be about 15" over the couplers= . Ray Burghart SPF=20 -------------------------------1065716254 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
There is a nice drawing (side only) of a= n E-44 in THE GE OPERATING MANUAL for PRR Class E-44 Rectif= ier Type Locomotive. I do not know the scale but it appears cl= ose 3/16" S Gauge Scale. It is a cutaway so not all door detail can be seen.= =E2=80=A6 The drawing shows the motor to be about 15" over the couplers.
 
Ray Burghart SPF 
-------------------------------1065716254-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:22:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa difference I wonder if we might see a plastic I1s/I1sa in the near future. It does seem like a logical choice after the J1a comes out. Although right now it looks like BLI has their schedule full through next year. Which means I can save money after the GG1, M1b, T1, and J1a. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] L2s Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:06:14 -0700 Listers, Have any of you tried using the Athearn USRA 2-8-2 for a model of a PRR-L2s? Haven't seen this model up in the north country, so I thought I would give the list a try. Rebuilt two old 4-6-2 Athearns for a friend who is big time into B&M; and I'm sure the new ones have improved drives by this time. Any comments for,or against? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:49:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] A group project (model) From: Bruce Smith Okay gang, Here's a wild idea that just sorta popped to the surface. How about a group, internet modeling project? Ted Culotta has created just such a group (called virtual modelers) and to date, we've done a number of different cars. Check Ted's group out on yehaw at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualmodelers/. Would there be any interest in doing this exclusively for PRR prototypes? On Ted's list they sometimes pick a class of cars, like the current "truss rod cars" build ongoing, but I really think picking a single car works soooo much better, because everyone has the same basic parameters. The great thing is that not everyone builds the same car, even with the same kit...paint, detail and even MOW variants occur. I would think we would want to se up a separate list, and post invites to join in the next TKM. Participants would be encouraged to post in progress pictures as well as the final results and we could also post the final pictures in TKM. Finally, I would think we'd want as many of the models as possible to show up in the model room for the PRRT&HS annual meeting!! Some possible (HO) examples: 1) NKP PB70D (because I have it and REALLY want to build it, but need to get over never having used brass car sides!) 2) X23 (Westerfield, unibody kit!) 3) X26 (Westerfield, Tichy) 4) GS (Sunshine, F&C, hacked Bowser) 5) GL series (GL, GLC, GLCA) hopper (Westerfield) 6) Bowser loco (eg I1) Well, what do y'all think? If there's a critical mass of interested folks, we can start anytime! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:01:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:49 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Here's a wild idea that just sorta popped to the surface. How about a > group, internet modeling project? Popped to the surface from the Atlas Forums! Both the HO and N scale forums are doing this right now, but with structures. Everyone starts with the same DPM kit and has a budget of $20 for detail parts. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa difference Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 11:37:24 -0700 Bruce, According to my copy of Edson's KEYSTONE STEAM AND ELECTRIC 1126 and 3720 was not converted to class I1sa...they were scrapped as class I1s. IIRC, the conversion consisted of a change in cutoff settings, allowing them a maximum cutoff of 52%, down from the original 71% (or thereabouts...) There should be no externally visible change except for the builder's badge plate on the boiler. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:29:26 -0500 Bruce Smith wrote: > > So, what are the visible external differences between an > I1s and an I1sa? Any idea of the conversion date for > these locos from I1s to I1sa? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:45:20 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) How about some scratch building/ kit bashing projects for unavailable cars (under $100): K7a K8 H33 (I'm cheating. I've already done this one) POC70 D70 Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Bruce Smith wrote: > Okay gang, > > Here's a wild idea that just sorta popped to the surface. How about a > group, internet modeling project? > > Ted Culotta has created just such a group (called virtual modelers) and > to date, we've done a number of different cars. Check Ted's group out > on yehaw at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualmodelers/. > > Would there be any interest in doing this exclusively for PRR > prototypes? On Ted's list they sometimes pick a class of cars, like > the current "truss rod cars" build ongoing, but I really think picking > a single car works soooo much better, because everyone has the same > basic parameters. The great thing is that not everyone builds the same > car, even with the same kit...paint, detail and even MOW variants occur. > > I would think we would want to se up a separate list, and post invites > to join in the next TKM. > > Participants would be encouraged to post in progress pictures as well > as the final results and we could also post the final pictures in TKM. > Finally, I would think we'd want as many of the models as possible to > show up in the model room for the PRRT&HS annual meeting!! > > Some possible (HO) examples: > > 1) NKP PB70D (because I have it and REALLY want to build it, but need > to get over never having used brass car sides!) > 2) X23 (Westerfield, unibody kit!) > 3) X26 (Westerfield, Tichy) > 4) GS (Sunshine, F&C, hacked Bowser) > 5) GL series (GL, GLC, GLCA) hopper (Westerfield) > 6) Bowser loco (eg I1) > > Well, what do y'all think? If there's a critical mass of interested > folks, we can start anytime! > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:26:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-8--626469341 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:45 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > How about some scratch building/ kit bashing projects for unavailable > cars > (under $100): > K7a > K8 > H33 (I'm cheating. I've already done this one) > POC70 > D70 Andrew, I think this is a great idea, but I'm afraid it would interest fewer folks than building a kit and might scare a few away! I think we should definitely keep this idea in mind, and look to use it after the group is well established. BTW, what's the plan for the D70? I have a Botchman that I need to add AC to so that it is accurate for a D78CR. Mt guess is also that passenger cars will not be as popular as freight cars... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-8--626469341 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:45 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: How about some scratch building/ kit bashing projects for unavailable cars (under $100): K7a K8 H33 (I'm cheating. I've already done this one) POC70 D70 Andrew, I think this is a great idea, but I'm afraid it would interest fewer folks than building a kit and might scare a few away! I think we should definitely keep this idea in mind, and look to use it after the group is well established. BTW, what's the plan for the D70? I have a Botchman that I need to add AC to so that it is accurate for a D78CR. Mt guess is also that passenger cars will not be as popular as freight cars... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-8--626469341-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:33:25 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) Bruce, I had not given much thought to the particular D70. I was thinking of the vanilla rebuilds that ran on the corridor rather than the Broadway's fancy variation or the various twin unit rebuilds. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Bruce Smith wrote: > On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:45 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > How about some scratch building/ kit bashing projects for unavailable cars > (under $100): > K7a > K8 > H33 (I'm cheating. I've already done this one) > POC70 > D70 > > Andrew, > > I think this is a great idea, but I'm afraid it would interest fewer folks than building a kit and might scare a few away! I think we should definitely keep this idea in mind, and look to use it after the group is well established. > > BTW, what's the plan for the D70? I have a Botchman that I need to add AC to so that it is accurate for a D78CR. > > Mt guess is also that passenger cars will not be as popular as freight cars... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:45:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) From: Bruce Smith On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 02:33 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Bruce, > I had not given much thought to the particular D70. I was thinking > of the vanilla rebuilds that ran on the corridor rather than the > Broadway's fancy variation or the various twin unit rebuilds. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller Of course, I need a 1939 Budd diner for my Champion, but that's an ACL car Another project that might be fun would be the Budd built P85 coaches...starting with a Walthers car and modifying it. There, we might get enough people together to order a window insert band made to order...Then all I would need would be the ACL style aluminum lettering for PENNSYLVANIA for the cars assigned to the Champion... When Branchline releases one their Pullmans, that too would be a GREAT group project. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:59:50 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) Bruce, Are you referring to the Budd coaches for: -the prewar Champion - the postwar Champion - the Congo? I keep hoping that someday Walthers will do the last one. They have done 2 Budd coaches and a P-S coach todate, but none of them are high capacity corridor coaches. We could probably induce Laser Horizons to do a window insert. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Bruce Smith wrote: > On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 02:33 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > > Bruce, > > I had not given much thought to the particular D70. I was thinking > > of the vanilla rebuilds that ran on the corridor rather than the > > Broadway's fancy variation or the various twin unit rebuilds. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andrew S. Miller > > Of course, I need a 1939 Budd diner for my Champion, but that's an ACL > car Another project that might be fun would be the Budd built > P85 coaches...starting with a Walthers car and modifying it. There, we > might get enough people together to order a window insert band made to > order...Then all I would need would be the ACL style aluminum lettering > for PENNSYLVANIA for the cars assigned to the Champion... > > When Branchline releases one their Pullmans, that too would be a GREAT > group project. > > Happy Rails > Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] A group project (model) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:29:11 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C38EB4.C32CB390 Content-Type: text/plain Guys; If you're going to go to the lengths of scratchbuilding, the easiest project is the welded G32. Believe me, I have looked at options on ALL of them. It is REALLY easy (I've done two so far). And cheap. All straight shapes, and the ribs are easy to do. Commercial ends, and best of all, I have a write-up done and it will go into TKM soon. Folks could build one according to the directions, and ask questions of you guys and me when they need to. But Bruce brings up a good point, this scratchbuilding thing scares folks. Ask me, I am terrified. The idea of scratchbuilding a car with riveted rib flanges makes me wake up at night in a sweat. How about going the Ted Culotta route, which is way-cool (did you see the X-3's?), but with a PRR car? Something really easy, like a one-piece G22, or a Bowser F30a upgrade? Something for folks to "cut their teeth" on? And if we eventually do a passenger car, how about one that everyone can use like a "hot" P70 commuter? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 12:26 PM To: Andrew S. Miller Cc: PRR-Talk; prrths_modeling_committee@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:45 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: How about some scratch building/ kit bashing projects for unavailable cars (under $100): K7a K8 H33 (I'm cheating. I've already done this one) POC70 D70 Andrew, I think this is a great idea, but I'm afraid it would interest fewer folks than building a kit and might scare a few away! I think we should definitely keep this idea in mind, and look to use it after the group is well established. BTW, what's the plan for the D70? I have a Botchman that I need to add AC to so that it is accurate for a D78CR. Mt guess is also that passenger cars will not be as popular as freight cars... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C38EB4.C32CB390 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Guys;

 

=

If you're going to go to the = lengths of scratchbuilding, the easiest project is = the welded G32.  Believe me, I have looked at options on ALL of them.  It is REALLY easy (I've done two so far).  And = cheap.  All straight shapes, and the ribs are easy to do.  Commercial ends, and best of all, I have a write-up done and it = will go into TKM soon.  Folks = could build one according to the directions, and ask questions of you guys and me = when they need to.

 

=

But Bruce brings up a good point, = this scratchbuilding thing scares folks.  Ask me, I am terrified.  The idea of scratchbuilding a car with riveted rib flanges makes me wake up at night in a = sweat.

 

=

How about going the Ted Culotta route, which is way-cool (did you see the = X-3's?), but with a PRR car?  Something really easy, like a one-piece G22, or a Bowser = F30a upgrade?  Something for folks to "cut their teeth" on?

 

=

And if we eventually do a = passenger car, how about one that everyone can use like a "hot" P70 = commuter?

 

=

Elden

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 = 12:26 PM
To: Andrew S. Miller
Cc: PRR-Talk; prrths_modeling_committee@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] A = group project (model)

 

On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:45 PM, = Andrew S. Miller wrote:

 

How about some scratch building/ kit bashing = projects for unavailable cars

(under $100):

K7a

K8

H33 (I'm cheating. I've already done this = one)

POC70

D70

 

Andrew,

 

I think this is a great idea, but I'm afraid = it would interest fewer folks than building a kit and might scare a few away! I = think we should definitely keep this idea in mind, and look to use it after the = group is well established.

 

BTW, what's the plan for the D70? I have a = Botchman that I need to add AC to so that it is accurate for a D78CR. =

 

Mt guess is also that passenger cars will = not be as popular as freight cars...

 

Happy Rails

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =

Scott-Ritchey Research Center =

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) =

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ =

 

"Beer is proof that God loves us and = wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

__

/ \

__<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________

|- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ = __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 

|/_____________________________\|_|_________= ___________________________|

| O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0

------_=_NextPart_001_01C38EB4.C32CB390-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:59:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] N Scale Brass From: Jerry @ Pennsy Would "those in the know" please review my list of N scale brass at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/n_steam.ws4d and let me know of any additions / corrections. Also, would you let me know of brass releases of PRR cabins and passenger cars for similar lists. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] oil fired PRR steam locos Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:10:11 -0400 Hi All, I know of a LIRR engineer who fired on steam, then became an engineer in the diesel era. Howie told me of at least 1 oil fired L1 that was used LATE into the 50s at Sunnyside Yard. It was stationary used to produce steam for heating buildings. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] oil fired PRR steam locos Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 17:15:46 -0700 In the second edition of Pennsy Steam A to T (Carlson) there are photos of the 8 L1s class locomotives being used in this service. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:10:11 -0400 "Bill Lane" wrote: > Hi All, > > I know of a LIRR engineer who fired on steam, then became > an engineer in the > diesel era. Howie told me of at least 1 oil fired L1 that > was used LATE into > the 50s at Sunnyside Yard. It was stationary used to > produce steam for > heating buildings. > > Thanks > Bill > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:49:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] oil fired PRR steam locos From: aurora7@juno.com Check website on LIRR, maintained by Art Huneke, called "Arrt's Archives" . Yes, the two "r's" are correct. There is a picture of three oil fired L-1's being used as stationary boilers in the Sunnyside area. The locos were stripped of piston rods and heavily rusted. The pictures were taken on a fan trip in the end of steam era. I wonder if any of those L's were accidently shoved into siding and forgotten? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 22:44:58 -0400 Bruce, Elden, and the rest of the gang, I'm all for it if this starts up. As an aspiring young modeler i love kind of getting these how-to articles on PRR equipment punlished. I'm most likely going to buy an F&C GR at timonium this weekend because Elden's article in TKM has kind of shrugged my resin fears because it sounds easy enough. Scratchbuilding has its place also, but like all good things the group should start with baby steps. I;ve also found i'm slowly growing into an "open-loads" fanatic, but mostly on PRR stuff. Theres my 3 cents for this evening and a hearty Huzzah! to getting this group rolling. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa difference Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:09:37 -0500 Hi Bruce--The Keystone for Summer 1977 has an I1 roster compiled by Richard Adams and Roger Keyser. It lists 1126 as being converted to I1sa in 1948 with no month given. It was maintained on the roster until 4/30/58. 3720 was not converted to I1sa and was dropped 11/27/53. 1126 is probably the most photogenic of the Altoona built I1's. Don Wood's "I Remember Pennsy" shows its right side on p. 114 on a Shamokin Branch ore train in 1956. The Keystone for June 1983 on p. 19 (Big, Fat, and Dirty) has a photo of the left side at Northumberland in 1956. Both show a 210F82a tender with 8 wheel trucks. Several years ago Key imported a 1126 model configured as shown in the above photos. Too late for your era. Additionally, I suspect Key has made an error with the current model if they offer it with 6 wheel trucks. I have found no visible differences between I1s and I1sa classes. As Don said, dated photos of specific engines are the only way to go. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 23:24:51 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) Great idea. I belong to another group that's done several projects. I would vote for of Westerfield's kits - X23 or maybe the X26. John Ryan Bruce Smith wrote: > Okay gang, > > Here's a wild idea that just sorta popped to the surface. How about a > group, internet modeling project? > > Ted Culotta has created just such a group (called virtual modelers) > and to date, we've done a number of different cars. Check Ted's group > out on yehaw at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualmodelers/. > > Would there be any interest in doing this exclusively for PRR > prototypes? On Ted's list they sometimes pick a class of cars, like > the current "truss rod cars" build ongoing, but I really think picking > a single car works soooo much better, because everyone has the same > basic parameters. The great thing is that not everyone builds the > same car, even with the same kit...paint, detail and even MOW variants > occur. > > I would think we would want to se up a separate list, and post invites > to join in the next TKM. > > Participants would be encouraged to post in progress pictures as > well as the final results and we could also post the final pictures in > TKM. Finally, I would think we'd want as many of the models as > possible to show up in the model room for the PRRT&HS annual meeting!! > > Some possible (HO) examples: > > 1) NKP PB70D (because I have it and REALLY want to build it, but need > to get over never having used brass car sides!) > 2) X23 (Westerfield, unibody kit!) > 3) X26 (Westerfield, Tichy) > 4) GS (Sunshine, F&C, hacked Bowser) > 5) GL series (GL, GLC, GLCA) hopper (Westerfield) > 6) Bowser loco (eg I1) > > Well, what do y'all think? If there's a critical mass of interested > folks, we can start anytime! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon G" Subject: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:55:00 -0400 Group: Can someone tell me the number and current location, if it still exists, of the GG-1 which went through the floor of the Washington Union Station just before the Eisenhour presidential inaugural in the 50's? Where can I find a photo showing the "G" in the basement? All the best to you and yours Weldon All outgoing emails scanned with Norton Anti-virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Weldon, That was GG1 #4876. There is a photo of the wreck in "The Remarkable GG1". Not a very good photo though but it will give you an idea of the wreck. I'm not sure,but I think 4876 was one of the NJDOT GG1s that made it to the 1980s. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:04:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A group project (model) --part1_90.3d5613a3.2cb7a5d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elden writes... > How about going the Ted Culotta route, which is way-cool (did you see the > X-3's?), but with a PRR car? Something really easy, like a one-piece G22, or > a Bowser F30a upgrade? Something for folks to "cut their teeth" on? I think this is an excellent choice. Not only it is a necessary car (like gondolas and boxes) but it would make for some interesting loadings as well. There is the Stan Radarowicz F30D conversion as well as Life Likes Farmall Tractors, straws for pipe, jeeze I can think of a lot of stuff to use. The project would likely be under 20 bucks total, regardless of your upgrades and I think we should focus on that as well. The last I knew there was still one in service on the Yreka Western in Northern California as an open air tourist car. I might have some shots of it around here somewhere. Won't it be sweet to see a string of these at a venue like Cocoa Beach in January on the PRRT&HS display table? I think another good project would be a X31 (all subclasses) blitz as well. It is not expensive and those that think you are modeling challenged when it comes to re-detailing would be surprised how simple it can be. I think Elden mentioned the H33. I have been want to redo my H33 as I know more details about the car than I did in the early 90's and I think it would make a great "fleet" type car as well. A good starting point would be the Bowser kit or the ECW kit. Either kit has it advantaged and disadvantages. Then there is the ATLAS H34 (and subclasses) and it makes into a wonderful car. I think it is an inspiring idea Bruce. Greg Martin --part1_90.3d5613a3.2cb7a5d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Elden writes...

How about going the Ted Culotta route, which is way-cool (d= id you see the X-3's?), but with a PRR car?  Something really easy, lik= e a one-piece G22, or a Bowser F30a upgrade?  Something for folks to "c= ut their teeth" on?

I think this is an excellent choice. Not only it is a necessary car (like go= ndolas and boxes) but it would make for some interesting loadings as well.&n= bsp; There is the Stan Radarowicz F30D conversion as well as Life Likes Farmall Tractors, straws for p= ipe, jeeze I can think of a lot of stuff to use. The project would likely be= under 20 bucks total, regardless of your upgrades and I think we should foc= us on that as well.  The last I knew there was still one in service on=20= the Yreka Western in Northern California as an open air tourist car. I might= have some shots of it around here somewhere.  Won't it be sweet to see= a string of these at a venue like Cocoa Beach in January on the PRRT&HS= display table?

I think another good project would be a X31 (all subclasses) blitz as well.=20= It is not expensive and those that think you are modeling challenged when it= comes to re-detailing would be surprised how simple it can be.

I think Elden mentioned the H33.  I have been want to redo my H33 as I=20= know more details about the car than I did in the early 90's and I think it=20= would make a great "fleet" type car as well.  A good starting point wou= ld be the Bowser kit or the ECW kit. Either kit has it advantaged and disadv= antages.  Then there is the ATLAS H34 (and subclasses) and it makes int= o a wonderful car.

I think it is an inspiring idea Bruce.

Greg Martin 
--part1_90.3d5613a3.2cb7a5d4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:47:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 12:12 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > That was GG1 #4876. There is a photo of the wreck in "The > Remarkable GG1". Not a very good photo though but it will give you an > idea of the wreck. > I'm not sure,but I think 4876 was one of the NJDOT GG1s that > made it to the 1980s. Hope this helps. I'm pretty sure that unit is at the B&O railroad museum in Baltimore. The father-in-law of the owner of one of the layouts that I operate on was the fireman on that fateful trip. I was just told arrangements were made to let him "climb aboard" again at the museum, so it follows that it is the same unit. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:23:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bridges & Overhead --part1_144.1a3b686f.2cb7f0b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I am looking for information as to how the catenary lines were run through bridges. At present, the Walthers double-track truss bridge is the candidate for this project. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_144.1a3b686f.2cb7f0b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List,

  I am looking for information as to how the catenary lines were run th= rough bridges.  At present, the Walthers double-track truss bridge is t= he candidate for this project.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_144.1a3b686f.2cb7f0b7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:13:42 +0000 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: "I'm not sure, but I think 4876 was one of the NJDOT GG1s that made it to the 1980s." Jerry Britton added: "I'm pretty sure that unit is at the B&O railroad museum in Baltimore." 4876 is indeed one of the NJDOT GG1s and resides in the storage yard at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, still painted PC/NJDOT black but in rough shape. http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/GG1/4876a.jpg Here's an account of the accident with post-wreck photos: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.html Here's a GG1 page with information on surviving motors: http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/ Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:23:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 There's a pretty good picture of 4876 in the collapsed concourse in Middleton's When the Steam Railroads Electrified, page 337. Part of the caption reads, "With President Eisenhower's inauguration only days away, the railroad had only time enough to cut up the locomotive, lower it the rest of the way into the basement, and cover it with a temporary floor. After rail traffic returned to normal, the dismembered GG1 was removed and shipped to Altoona shops for rebuilding." The running text notes that the motor was returned to service ten months later. In a related topic, I have a friend who works in Amtrak's engineering department; when Union Station was being reconstructed years ago, he recalls that the engineering team encountered structural repairs to the building dating from the accident. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:45:44 -0400 The accounts given on the website are only 2/3 correct. The ICC report cites the brake problem was caused due to the way curveture in correlation with the way the New Haven cars brake cock between cars was affected on certain curves. Also, the tower operator at K tower was actually at lunch, his assistant was on duty when the Federal came screaming past. He called the regular operator bewildered what to do. After the regualr operator cursed a few, he quickly called the stationmaster and had the station cleared, his exact words were, "Clear the station, the Federal is coming in!" As known the GG1 stopped in the waiting room and since the weight of the engine was too much, it sunk into the baggage room. Because of Eisenhowers innaguration, they covered over the GG1 and later cut it in two pieces and sent it to Wilmington where it was in service in 5 months. An interesting fact is that later when cleaning up they found the concrete bumping post for track 16 on the roof of Union Station. Hope this helps. I've read the ICC report. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:02:33 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Old Story, possibly untrue: Why did it take so long to get 4876 out of the basement? No one could find the baggage check for the lok. (4876 ended up in the checked baggage area...) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:24:50 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08E2_01C38F10.5B5EE420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ahd just gotten off a Ship in Portsmouth, Va. and bummed a ride to DC = to go home to Philly for my Birthday weekend and I had gotten on a New = York Bound Train and as we were leaving the Union Station in Washington, = DC The ill fated Passenger Train wizzed by us and I remember saying to = myself, Dam he had the Throttle open on that run!! WQhen I got to Philly there was the news GG-1 crashed thru Union = Station, Washington, DC. E.LEE BURBAGE BMCM USCG-Ret. ------=_NextPart_000_08E2_01C38F10.5B5EE420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I ahd just gotten off a Ship in Portsmouth, Va. and bummed a ride = to DC to=20 go home to Philly for my Birthday weekend and I had gotten on a New York = Bound=20 Train and as we were leaving the Union Station in Washington, DC The ill = fated=20 Passenger Train wizzed by us and I remember saying to myself, Dam he had = the=20 Throttle open on that run!!
 
WQhen I got to Philly there was the news GG-1 crashed thru Union = Station,=20 Washington, DC.
 
E.LEE BURBAGE
BMCM  USCG-Ret.
 
------=_NextPart_000_08E2_01C38F10.5B5EE420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:31:36 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] MTH N6b and L5
I would like someone to confirm this if they have better information. MTH is supposed to have a Pennsy N6b wood sided cabin car in O scale in their just release catalog. The catalog is online but only club members can view it. The already have a N5c and N8 caboose that aren't bad. I don't know the price or when it will be available. Also, MTH is supposed to have a Pennsy L5 electric in their catalog.
Now why can't we get a nice RTR N6b in H0 scale.
Eric Lauterbach
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:10:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] oil fired PRR steam locos Hi All, I know of a LIRR engineer who fired on steam, then became an engineer in the diesel era. Howie told me of at least 1 oil fired L1 that was used LATE into the 50s at Sunnyside Yard. It was stationary used to produce steam for heating buildings. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:55:08 -0500 Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::[PRR] MTH N6b and L5 From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-26--556320626 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 09:31 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > I would like someone to confirm this if they have better information. > MTH is supposed to have a Pennsy N6b wood sided cabin car in O scale > in their just release catalog. The catalog is online but only club > members can view it. The already have a N5c and N8 caboose that aren't > bad. I don't know the price or when it will be available. Also, MTH is > supposed to have a Pennsy L5 electric in their catalog. > Now why can't we get a nice RTR N6b in H0 scale. To answer your last question...apparently because it is so difficult to pin down what an N6B looked like. Pacific Mountain was planning on releasing a resin N6B (not RTR!) but backed off for lack of complete plans...they want to do it right or won' do it. IIRC, there are problems both with getting an accurate underbody arrangement drawing, and with the fact that there were multiple cupola styles (within the N6B!) and locations. Since this level of accuracy has never really bothered Bowser, maybe we can get them to do it (so buy LOTS of N8s!!) Happy Rails Bruce --Apple-Mail-26--556320626 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 09:31 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: Arial0000,0000,0000I would like someone to confirm this if they have better information. MTH is supposed to have a Pennsy N6b wood sided cabin car in O scale in their just release catalog. The catalog is online but only club members can view it. The already have a N5c and N8 caboose that aren't bad. I don't know the price or when it will be available. Also, MTH is supposed to have a Pennsy L5 electric in their catalog. Arial0000,0000,0000Now why can't we get a nice RTR N6b in H0 scale. To answer your last question...apparently because it is so difficult to pin down what an N6B looked like. Pacific Mountain was planning on releasing a resin N6B (not RTR!) but backed off for lack of complete plans...they want to do it right or won' do it. IIRC, there are problems both with getting an accurate underbody arrangement drawing, and with the fact that there were multiple cupola styles (within the N6B!) and locations. Since this level of accuracy has never really bothered Bowser, maybe we can get them to do it < (so buy LOTS of N8s!!) Happy Rails Bruce --Apple-Mail-26--556320626-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:27:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] And we're offfffffff!!! was A group project (model) From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-28--550774358 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Okay, so I see that there is some support for the idea... I have created a new Yahoo group called the "PRR Project Group"! This is a new group that has been formed to foster modeling of the Pennsylvania Railroad, as internet projects. Our goals are to support each others modeling "habits" and to encourage each of us to grow, and expand our abilities. This is not a competitive arena where we are looking for the "best" model, just our personal best efforts to accurately model the standard railroad of the world. Members will be able to (and are encouraged to!) post photographs of "in progress" and "finished" models to the group files section. We should also plan on bringing our models to the annual PRRT&HS meetings as well as other modeling meets such as Cocoa Beach. Please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro to join and for more information Every 2-4 months the group will select a new project, using the "Poll" feature of the group. Projects can be freight cars, passenger cars, MOW cars, locomotives, buildings, etc... Modelers of all scales are welcome and you can build the project IN ANY SCALE (although practicality may dictate that most projects be availble in HO scale). I will acccept nominations for the first project through the PRRpro list until next Friday (October 17, 2003). After that, the choices will be posted as a poll for voting. Once the votes are in, we can start building!! Current nominees are: 1) F30 (eg detail a Bowser F30A, F30D, Sunshine F30A, other scales...)...including LOADS 2) X29 (eg Red Caboose, all variants, Sunshine, other scales) 3) G22 4) PB70 combines (can include "sprucing up" a Bachman, NKP PB70D, other scales, other cars, eg PBM70) 5) X26 The X23, X31 & H33 have also been nominated but I'm going to make an executive decision and keep those for later unless there is strong support. I REALLY like Eldon Gatwood's idea of "cutting our teeth" on the F30 project, hence that's the one I'll be voting for This message has been sent to the PRR-talk and PRRT&HS Modeling Committee lists. Please feel free to forward it to any other lists that might have an interest. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-28--550774358 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Okay, so I see that there is some support for the idea...< I have created a new Yahoo group called the "PRR Project Group"! This is a new group that has been formed to foster modeling of the Pennsylvania Railroad, as internet projects. Our goals are to support each others modeling "habits" and to encourage each of us to grow, and expand our abilities. This is not a competitive arena where we are looking for the "best" model, just our personal best efforts to accurately model the standard railroad of the world. Members will be able to (and are encouraged to!) post photographs of "in progress" and "finished" models to the group files section. We should also plan on bringing our models to the annual PRRT&HS meetings as well as other modeling meets such as Cocoa Beach. Please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro to join and for more information Every 2-4 months the group will select a new project, using the "Poll" feature of the group. Projects can be freight cars, passenger cars, MOW cars, locomotives, buildings, etc... Modelers of all scales are welcome and you can build the project IN ANY SCALE (although practicality may dictate that most projects be availble in HO scale). I will acccept nominations for the first project through the PRRpro list until next Friday (October 17, 2003). After that, the choices will be posted as a poll for voting. Once the votes are in, we can start building!! Current nominees are: 1) F30 (eg detail a Bowser F30A, F30D, Sunshine F30A, other scales...)...including LOADS < 2) X29 (eg Red Caboose, all variants, Sunshine, other scales) 3) G22 4) PB70 combines (can include "sprucing up" a Bachman, NKP PB70D, other scales, other cars, eg PBM70) 5) X26 The X23, X31 & H33 have also been nominated but I'm going to make an executive decision and keep those for later < unless there is strong support. I REALLY like Eldon Gatwood's idea of "cutting our teeth" on the F30 project, hence that's the one I'll be voting for This message has been sent to the PRR-talk and PRRT&HS Modeling Committee lists. Please feel free to forward it to any other lists that might have an interest. Happy Rails Bruce CourierBruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-28--550774358-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:40:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/10/03 --part1_16e.24c7c2fa.2cb83b17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/03 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Damaged GG1 > From: "Weldon G" It's #4876 and currently resides at (not in) the B & O Museum in Baltimore. I have had recent correspondence with the Museum folks regarding 4876. They tell me it's in pretty bad condition and not likely to be restored. My father-in-law, John Moyer, was the fireman on 4876 when it wrecked. I have several photo's of 4876 "residing" in the basement of Union station. I also have many documents, news clippings, etc, regarding the wreck. You may contact me off list regarding this subject. Bob Martin York, PA --part1_16e.24c7c2fa.2cb83b17_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/10/= 03 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Damaged GG1
From: "Weldon G" <prr4800@chartermi.net>


It's #4876 and currently resides at (not in) the B & O Museum in Bal= timore.  I have had recent correspondence with the Museum folks regardi= ng 4876.  They tell me it's in pretty bad condition and not likely to b= e restored.  My father-in-law, John Moyer, was the fireman on 4876 when= it wrecked.  

I have several photo's of 4876 "residing" in the basement of Union stati= on.  I also have many documents, news clippings, etc, regarding the wre= ck.

You may contact me off list regarding this subject.

Bob Martin=20
York, PA --part1_16e.24c7c2fa.2cb83b17_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:36:31 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::[PRR] MTH N6b and L5 Bruce writes: > Now why can't we get a nice RTR N6b in H0 scale. To answer your last question... apparently because it is so difficult to pin down what an N6B looked like. Pacific Mountain was planning on releasing a resin N6B (not RTR!) but backed off for lack of complete plans...< This is it in a nut shell. I could get it done... no problem but the underframe details and the lack of good plans is a problem. The body above the frame is not the problem... The underframe is the problem. There are not even good photos to work from. >they want to do it right or won' do it. IIRC, there are problems both with getting an accurate underbody arrangement drawing, and with the fact that there were multiple cupola styles (within the N6B!) and locations. Since this level of accuracy has never really bothered Bowser, maybe we can get them to do it (so buy LOTS of N8s!!) Happy > Rails Bruce Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::[PRR] MTH N6b and L5 Greg Why not solicit help from Harrisburg area members and with the coperation with the Harrisburg Station where a live N6b resides, to get photos, measurments of the Cabin?......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:58:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: { SPAM 1 } From: Jerry Britton Subscribers: Someone introduced "{ SPAM 1 }" into the Subject line of the "MTH N6b and L5" thread. No, there is no SPAM in the message, or worms, or viruses, or terrorists waiting to auto-expand in the e-mails. I believe Bruce Smith is the culprit. I e-mailed him on it but have not received a response. I believe he has installed a filter that valuates e-mails and increases a "point value" based on numerous SPAM measures. (I once tried such a system but dropped it.) The result is the modified subject with the SPAM count indicated. If anyone is using such a system, please make sure you edit that out of the header BEFORE you post your reply. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] N6a & b Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:24:53 +0000 In this day and age it shouldn't be too difficult to make a kit that could be either one. The roof could be scored so that the proper end roof size could be easily snapped off and the cupola could be a separate casting and dropped into the right location. If the window locations vary the same thing could be done with scoring the openings from the inside and leaving the rough opening to be cut out by the modeler. either way they could be prepainted for those who don't want to do the finishing or undecorated. That would increase the sales potential by two at least I would think. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:18:08 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PRR MTH N6b and L5 Gary, That would be extremely useful... If we could get that I could get Walthers to do the project. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:40:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] L2s a Cincinnati engine --part1_15a.25ea2227.2cb8b99f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/9/03 6:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: L2s > From: "Fred Freitas" > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:06:14 -0700 > > Listers, > Have any of you tried using the Athearn USRA 2-8-2 for a model > of a PRR-L2s? Haven't seen this model up in the north country, so I thought > I would give the list a try. Rebuilt two old 4-6-2 Athearns for a friend > who is big time into B&M; and I'm sure the new ones have improved drives by > this time. Any comments for,or against? Biggest against is that these engines were only used Cincinnati-Fort Wayne IN and maybe to Grand Rapids MI. See next spring's Keystone for more on these five USRA oddities. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_15a.25ea2227.2cb8b99f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/9/03 6:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: L2s
From: "Fred Freitas" <pennsy@sover.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:06:14 -0700

Listers,
             Hav= e any of you tried using the Athearn USRA 2-8-2 for a model
of a PRR-L2s?  Haven't seen this model up in the north country, so I th= ought
I would give the list a try.  Rebuilt two old 4-6-2 Athearns for a frie= nd
who is big time into B&M; and I'm sure the new ones have improved drives= by
this time. Any comments for,or against?


Biggest against is that these engines were only used Cincinnati-Fort Wayne I= N and maybe to Grand Rapids MI.  See next spring's Keystone for more on= these five USRA oddities.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_15a.25ea2227.2cb8b99f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] L2s a Cincinnati engine Rick, I think I have a photo of an L2 sitting at Conway. Give me a week to look for it. Email me then if I don't get back. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:15:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Phlia. Chapter meeting Friday 10-17-03 7pm Jefferson U Presentation RRs that owned /ran buses ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 7:18 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Phlia. Chapter meeting > Hi All, > > I moved this past weekend and misplaced my meeting notice. When is the > Phila. chapter PRR T&HS meeting? > > Thanks > Bill > > > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:08:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 --part1_189.1fdd0597.2cb8ce13_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/2003 8:51:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes: > they > covered over the GG1 and later cut it in two pieces and > sent it to Wilmington where it was in service in 5 months. > I believe that that should be "three pieces" and "Altoona". A GG1 is a three-piece system: two underframes, articulated, and the carbody. The underframes contain the motors, and carry all the buff forces through the articulation. The carbody is a bridge structure sitting on pinned bolsters on the two underframes: the only connections between the two, other than the bolster pins are non-structural---brake pipelines, motor power cables, and the flexible duct connections for the traction motor blowers. Wilmington was set up for routine maintenance of all of the PRR motors. The construction jigs needed to square off the damaged unit were still available at Altoona. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_189.1fdd0597.2cb8ce13_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/10/= 2003 8:51:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes:


they=20
covered over the GG1 and later cut it in two pieces and=20
sent it to Wilmington where it was in service in 5 months.=20


I believe that that should be "three pieces" and "Altoona".

A GG1 is a three-piece system: two underframes, articulated,
and the carbody. The underframes contain the motors, and
carry all the buff forces through the articulation. The carbody
is a bridge structure sitting on pinned bolsters on the two
underframes: the only connections between the two, other
than the bolster pins are non-structural---brake pipelines,
motor power cables, and the flexible duct connections for
the traction motor blowers.

Wilmington was set up for routine maintenance of all of
the PRR motors. The construction jigs needed to square off
the damaged unit were still available at Altoona.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA

--part1_189.1fdd0597.2cb8ce13_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:49:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 --part1_10c.2a7fca3c.2cb8d7b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/2003 11:43:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes: > If this is the case, how do you explain the GG1 that was > cut in half and put in snow sweeper service at Wilmington > after it recieved considerable damage in a wreck? > > One of the half frames, a few extra plates welded on to hold the back end of the surviving half of the body: no need for niceties such as the train boiler, or cab signals, etc. The snow blowing equipment was placed at the cut-off end of the car body. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_10c.2a7fca3c.2cb8d7b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/10/= 2003 11:43:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes:


If this is the case, how do= you explain the GG1 that was=20
cut in half and put in snow sweeper service at Wilmington=20
after it recieved considerable damage in a wreck?=20



One of the half frames, a few extra plates welded on to hold
the back end of the surviving half of the body: no need for
niceties such as the train boiler, or cab signals, etc. The=20
snow blowing equipment was placed at the cut-off end of=20
the car body.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_10c.2a7fca3c.2cb8d7b6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon G" Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:47:24 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38F99.9E0D0ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all who replied. One of the posts asked what why I was making this inquiry. Well, as you = may know AMTRAK GG-1 4916, ex PRR 4918, resides at the Museum of = Transportation just outside of St. Louis, MO. This "G" and ex PRR P-5, = 4700 are buried in the back corner of the Museum, under teh cover of a = shelter. =20 I struck up a conversation with one of the members who apparently never = sees anyone go that far back in the collection. He told me that former = PRR 4918 is mechanically and electrically intact and the transformers DO = NOT contain PCB's as a coolant. He also told me the THOUGHT this was = the "G" which went through the floor in Washington. But of course, he was wrong on that count. He also told me that this = unit could be, with considerable expense, be returned to operating = condition. Then the question is since this unit did not go thru the floor in = Washington do the transformers in 4918 really not contain PCB's? Do = the 4876's transformers contain PCB's? If not and if lighting should = strike, and someone comes up with bucks $$$ could either of these units = run under the existing catenary on the NE corrador?=20 Were the "G"s used by AMTRAK or CONRAIL free of PCB's and that is why = those units were chosen for continued service? =20 Was there a program or some other reason that over the life of the "G" = that the PCB's were replaced in some of the units and do we know which = units might be free of PCB's? Now I don't want to start something I could not finish, but have there = been any efforts to restore a "G" for operation? And what could we as a = group do to light such a fire. Lots of questions, few answers so far. Thanks for all your efforts in = answering my post. All the best to you and yours Weldon All outgoing emails scanned with Norton Anti-virus ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38F99.9E0D0ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to all who=20 replied.
 
One of the posts asked = what why I was=20 making this inquiry.  Well, as you may know AMTRAK GG-1 4916, ex = PRR 4918,=20 resides at the Museum of Transportation just outside of St. Louis, = MO. =20 This "G" and ex PRR P-5, 4700 are buried in the back corner of the = Museum, under=20 teh cover of a shelter.
 
I struck up a = conversation with one=20 of the members who apparently never sees anyone go that far back in the=20 collection.  He told me that former PRR 4918 is mechanically and=20 electrically intact and the transformers DO NOT contain PCB's as a=20 coolant.  He also told me the THOUGHT this was the "G" which went = through=20 the floor in Washington.
 
 But of course, he = was wrong on=20 that count.  He also told me that this unit could be, with = considerable=20 expense, be returned to operating condition.
 
Then the question is = since this unit=20 did not go thru the floor in Washington do  the transformers = in 4918=20 really not contain PCB's?  Do the 4876's transformers contain=20 PCB's?  If not and if lighting should strike, and someone = comes up=20 with bucks $$$ could either of these units run under the existing = catenary on=20 the NE corrador? 
 
Were the "G"s used by = AMTRAK or=20 CONRAIL free of PCB's and that is why those units were chosen for = continued=20 service?
 
Was there a program or = some other=20 reason that over the life of the "G" that the PCB's were replaced in = some of the=20 units and do we know which units might be free of PCB's?
 
Now I don't want to = start something I=20 could not finish, but have there been any efforts to restore a "G" for=20 operation?  And what could we as a group do to light such a=20 fire.
 
Lots of questions, few = answers so=20 far.  Thanks for all your efforts in answering my = post.
 
All the best to you and yours      = Weldon
 
All outgoing emails scanned with Norton = Anti-virus
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C38F99.9E0D0ED0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] MP54s for sale I came across this listing for MP54s for sale by the They look pretty inexpensive all things considered. I wish I had the place to store these as they are my all time favorite PRR item. Below is the link to the ad, and a link to some photos: http://www.railswap.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=3204&query=retrieval Photos: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_Owls_South_Phila.html Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:51:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Removing decals but not paint. I have a few PRR cars that I picked up second hand that are the correct colors, but have incorrect decals. Does anyone have any suggestions of how to remove the decals without marring the paint? Car bodies are brass or steel, I believe the paint is Floquil and some cars are Scalecoat. Decals are anywhere from a few months to 10 yrs old. Thanks!!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] L2s a Cincinnati engine Rick I had some time this morning to look at some of my photos. The photo I was thinking of was actually a K4 in Conway. I did find several L2's. Their locations are L2s 9631 at DeCoursey Ky, 1937 and L2s 9628 Cincy 1938. I have yet to go thru my big albums for more L2 pics. Need any for your article?.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:18:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Removing decals but not paint. --part1_50.2345d487.2cb96b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred, Some folks use products such as mechanic's hand cleaner Fast Orange, which is available at automotive stores, Wal-Mart, K Mart and the like. I prefer Joe's Decal Gel as it does not affect the paint; I have had the hand cleaners leave a "pool" mark in the paint. I apply this gel then lay a damp, not wet, paper towel over it while the gel works. Let it sit a half of an hour then gently rub the decal with a Q-Tip. If it doesn't all come off, spread the gel back over the stubborn decal remains and let sit. Should the gel become dry then add more gel. Some older Walthers and Champ decals require a longer setting time for the gel to work or a second application of the gel. If this is required, remove the first application and apply a second. To date, I have had absolutely no problems removing decals or affecting the paint with this gel. I prefer is as it has a finer grit in it than the hand cleaners do. It can leave very fine scratches in the paint but you need a magnifying glass to see them, whereas the hand cleaners leave heavier scratches that can be seen with the naked eye. The gel can be ordered direct from: Joe's Model Trains 820 East 31 St. Erie, Pa. 16504 Ph: 814/434-8667 joepol@stargate.net I tried to get this item stocked at Caboose Hobbies, where I work part-time, but there was too little mark up offered so it was not stock. I have no interest in this product beyond being a satisfied user of it. They also were offering weathering powders at the time we got their sample of the decal gel. Good Luck, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_50.2345d487.2cb96b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred,

   Some folks use products such as mechanic's hand cleaner Fast Or= ange, which is available at automotive stores, Wal-Mart, K Mart and the like= .

   I prefer Joe's Decal Gel as it does not affect the paint; = I have had the hand cleaners leave a "pool" mark in the paint. I apply this= gel then lay a damp, not wet, paper towel over it while the gel works. = ; Let it sit a half of an hour then gently rub the decal with a Q-Tip. If it= doesn't all come off, spread the gel back over the stubborn decal remains a= nd let sit. Should the gel become dry then add more gel.  Some older Wa= lthers and Champ decals require a longer setting time for the gel to work or= a second application of the gel.  If this is required, remove the firs= t application and apply a second.  To date, I have  had absolutely= no problems removing decals or affecting the paint with this gel.  I p= refer is as it has a finer grit in it than the hand cleaners do.  It ca= n leave very fine scratches in the paint but you need a magnifying glass to=20= see them, whereas the hand cleaners leave heavier scratches that can be seen= with the naked eye.

   The gel can be ordered direct from:

   Joe's Model Trains
   820 East 31 St.   
   Erie, Pa.  16504

   Ph:  814/434-8667
  
   joepol@stargate.net

  I tried to get this item stocked at Caboose Hobbies, where I work par= t-time, but there was too little mark up offered so it was not stock. =20= I have no interest in this product beyond being a satisfied user of it. = ; They also were offering weathering powders at the time we got their sample= of the decal gel.

Good Luck,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_50.2345d487.2cb96b2b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Jakovac" Subject: [PRR] PRR Station in Aspinwall, PA Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:05:07 -0400
Can anyone help find a picture of the station in Aspinwall, PA. My American Legion Post bought the building in the early 1920s.
 
TY

Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer- sign up now! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:30:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: Buffalo, NY area PRR yards In Paul Pierak's book on the Western New York & Pennsylvania, there is a post-1960 map of PRR facilities in the Buffalo area. I understand that Ebenezer Yard was the PRR's main classification yard there. Did the other yards listed have a specialized purpose? Babcock St. Yard Filmore Ave. Yard Alabama St. Yard (I think I saw something somewhere about LCL/TOFC here) Burrow's Lot (mainly for serving the grain elevators?) Ebenezer Jct. Penn Yard (the various steel mills?) Ridge Rd. Yard (was this a PRR facility; the map isn't clear) Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:01:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Buffalo, NY area PRR yards In a message dated 10/11/03 11:35:09 PM, Pattirobpatti@cs.com writes: << Babcock St. Yard Filmore Ave. Yard Alabama St. Yard (I think I saw something somewhere about LCL/TOFC here) Burrow's Lot (mainly for serving the grain elevators?) Ebenezer Jct. Penn Yard (the various steel mills?) Ridge Rd. Yard (was this a PRR facility; the map isn't clear) >> ********************** Wasn't there also a Pine Street Yard? I remember a yard referred to as the Ore Docks or Michigan Street. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:47:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Renovo Excursion From: Jerry @ Pennsy Just got in a few minutes ago from the Harrisburg to Renovo (and back) excursion sponsored by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS. Took my son along. On the way home he was already asking if we could do it again next year. So I guess the trip was a success!!! Renovo was holding its annual "Flaming Foliage Festival". There was a carnival, parade, street sales, and street food vendors. The tradition started circa 1949 and draws folks to the nearby state parks. I'd venture to guess that attendance doubled this year with Bennett's restored PRR E8's added to the slate! The trip up was hampered by fog until about 10:30. By then we were already west of Williamsport. Final hour was beautiful. The train arrived at noon and about half the passengers debarked, myself included. The rest rode the rest of the way to Keating to turn the train and returned about 1:45. During that time we ate and just started chatting with some locals. Seemed that nearly everyone we spoke with worked in the PRR shops in Renovo, had a spouse or sibling that did, or parents did. Was really cool to talk to them, but also drove home that this town is really dead now. Only one track goes through, but the concrete coaling tower still stands quite proud. Bennett: There was a former Renovo shop worker with Parkinson's who was in a wheelchair. I had been talking to his wife. When your units pulled back in from Keating, tears just streamed down his face! He was so overwhelmed by the memories! I don't know how many people were in Renovo, but some rumors said 30k. I doubt it, but the town was certainly filled to the gills. Cars were parked so close to the tracks that both the excursion train and a helper set had to slow to a crawl as they passed a blue van that had left only a few inches clearance! The excursion seemed relatively problem free. I think there were some seating issues, but they seemed to get cleared up pretty quickly. Also heard there was problems getting coffee on the way up...and it's really needed that early! One car lacked a/c and it was pretty stuffy. BUT, there is a "stupid award"! On the trip home the crew in the cafe car REFUSED to make coffee because it took too long to make and it would cause them to fall behind. I heard numerous folks complaining. Don't these folks know the profit margin on a 75 cent cup of coffee is better than the more expensive stuff being sold? Come on, it's flavored water!!!! But the problems were few, and rarely noticed or mentioned. Everyone seemed to have a good time. Same time next year? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:43:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Station in Aspinwall, PA --part1_64.35751cc7.2cba19e6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TY, In the PRRT&HS publication THE PENNSY IN THE STEEL CITY,there are a couple of pics of Aspinwall (pg 77),although it is more of the track area of the Cgh M/L and the upper shelter for the section of track headed for the Brilliant Br. I recall a postcard on Ebay a long while back that showed the lower shelter but not the main structure. Pat McKinney --part1_64.35751cc7.2cba19e6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TY,
        In the PRRT&HS publication TH= E PENNSY IN THE STEEL CITY,there are a couple of pics of Aspinwall (pg 77),a= lthough it is more of the track area of the Cgh M/L and the upper shelter fo= r the section of track headed for the Brilliant Br.
  I recall a postcard on Ebay a long while back that showed the lower s= helter but not the main structure.

Pat McKinney --part1_64.35751cc7.2cba19e6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:31:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 Wheels --part1_64.3576185b.2cba2523_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1950, which type of wheel would be found on these cars, ribbed backed or flat backed? Wasn't it in the twenties that improved metal composition, that better withstood heat, rendered the ribbed construction obsolete? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_64.3576185b.2cba2523_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   In 1950,  which type of wheel would be fou= nd on these cars, ribbed backed or flat backed?

  Wasn't it in the twenties that improved metal composition, that bette= r withstood heat, rendered the ribbed construction obsolete?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_64.3576185b.2cba2523_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:45:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L2s a Cincinnati engine --part1_1f0.114180a3.2cba448e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Freitas" writes... > Listers, > Have any of you tried using the Athearn USRA 2-8-2 for a model > of a PRR-L2s? Haven't seen this model up in the North country, so I thought > I would give the list a try. Rebuilt two old 4-6-2 Athearn's for a friend > who is big time into B&M; and I'm sure the new ones have improved drives by > this time. Any comments for, or against? Fred and all, I looked at this locomotive for article fodder and found out the outside diameter of the boiler sheathing on the Athearn 2-8-2 Mike is incorrect... The diameter of the boiler (as Athearn has released it) reflects the unlagged boiler itself. So to be done correctly you would have to remove all the details and roll the boiler like a Burrito with .030" styrene to get it close ... then add the details back on! Not in the future for me and typical of Athearn ... hurry up and get it on the market. Aren't I just a big party pooper! Greg Martin --part1_1f0.114180a3.2cba448e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Freitas" <pennsy@sover.net> writes...
Listers,
             Hav= e any of you tried using the Athearn USRA 2-8-2 for a model of a PRR-L2s?&nb= sp; Haven't seen this model up in the North country, so I thought I would gi= ve the list a try.  Rebuilt two old 4-6-2 Athearn's for a friend who is= big time into B&M; and I'm sure the new ones have improved drives by th= is time. Any comments for, or against?


Fred and all,

I looked at this locomotive for article fodder and found out the outside dia= meter of the boiler sheathing on the Athearn 2-8-2 Mike is incorrect... The=20= diameter of the boiler (as Athearn has released it) reflects the unlagged bo= iler itself. So to be done correctly you would have to remove all the detail= s and roll the boiler like a Burrito with .030" styrene to get it close ...=20= then add the details back on!  Not in the future for me and typical of=20= Athearn ... hurry up and get it on the market. Aren't I just a big party poo= per!

Greg Martin
--part1_1f0.114180a3.2cba448e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 07:06:20 -0400 Hi All, I have been following the thread on the GG1 that crashed in Washington with some interest. My father passed through the station within days after the incident on his way to going to the Korean War. I was thinking a collaboration of all the snippets of the postings here could be a nice article for the Keystone, even if it is only a page or two. I have misplaced the poster's email address whose father in law was the fireman on that trip. I am sure he could really add a few things to it. It would be an interesting concept to have one article with 10 authors! I have seen some PRR photos taken that showed how they filled in the hole to temporarily return the station to service. They would have really added to the article. Who wants to take the lead on this? I have copied Chuck Blardone on this. I am sure he would say "I have got the blank pages in you have the article." (Chuck, just click reply to all and type BRING IT ON!!) I am just the pot stirrer here not the cook! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Removing Decals -ultrasonic cleaner Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:07:53 -0400 Subject: Removing decals - more than one way and not all ways are suitable for all situations. My 2-cents. I have had success in removing decals that were old, loose or given help on getting loose in an ultrasonic cleaner. I had purchased a very dirty-greasy used brass M1a with a terrible decal number job on the cab sides and cleaned that end of the boiler in the ultrasonic cleaner and "poof", no more decals. That was the moment of discovery for me. There was no damage to the paint. Caution: Ultrasonic cleaners will lift trashy loose paint flakes and is not bad for finding the grossly poor soldering joint either. (Unless you did not want this effect) I do not know if this is of any value to anyone but it's my 2-cents. Happy Modeling, Harry prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Stained Glass Keystone Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 09:49:33 -0400 Hi All, As some of you know, I moved into an apartment for the first time last weekend. In an effort to make it a little mine, I hung the following in the 2nd bedroom/computer room. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Glass_Keystone.jpg It is a recent Ebay win. The ad showed the white areas as being yellowish, but I am not going to return it. It measures about 14" square. Of course my wife hates it. I knew that was going to happen. She said it looks like a hovering pointed demon's head. (Whatever that is!) The fact that she hates it just makes me like it a little bit more.... I am off to spend my second Sunday in a row assembling Ikea furniture. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 09:54:09 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Damaged GG1 Regarding posible PCB contamination in a GG1: PCB transformer liquids have a very characteristic, sweet odor, not unlike auto brake fluid. Once you have smelled it, you do not forget it. If you can get near the G again, try to get close enough to get inside, if necessary, and sniff around. (It won't hurt you to smell it). Locomotives had a lot of external piping which was subject to leakage (and maintenance), so the presence of leakage residue is likely. Small leaks do not travel far. Exposed to air, enough of the solvents evaporate out to leave a sticky, stiff residue that does not travel far in a protected environment. Ordinary 10C transformer oil has no significant smell, but is highly unlikely to have been retrofitted, due to its flammability. I would also doubt the transformer had been refilled with a silicone liquid, though such is possible. Refilling can be done (as of 1985, the last year I was involved with such work), without totally removing the then allowable traces of PCB's, resulting in a "PCB-contaminated," not a "PCB" transformer. Full decontamination is a lengthy flushing-circulating-filtering process which is subject to subsequent additional leaching of contaminants into the new liquid, which will again raise the percentage of contamination; it is also subject to the issuance of even tighter legal standards, which lower the legal maximum contamination to below the actual contamination level. Also, in 1985 at least, locomotive transformers were the only PCB transformers which were allowed to be untanked for repairs. So, maintenance to keep them operating was permitted. A significant bottom line is, if the G is now a non-PCB unit, records must exist attesting to that status, and the transformer tank should be labeled (required by law) as to its status: a) Non-PCB Transformer b) PCB-contaminated Transformer c) PCB Transformer Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 09:18:51 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Stained Glass Keystone --=====================_148416701==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bill - We have the deeper Tuscan with the yellow stained glass. The yellow tends to be more orange. I did suggest she try to find a more gold color. Nice anyway. Demon's head? Nahhhh! Dayna & Randy Williamson At 09:49 AM 10/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Hi All, > >As some of you know, I moved into an apartment for the first time last >weekend. In an effort to make it a little mine, I hung the following in the >2nd bedroom/computer room. >http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Glass_Keystone.jpg It is a recent >Ebay win. The ad showed the white areas as being yellowish, but I am not >going to return it. It measures about 14" square. > >Of course my wife hates it. I knew that was going to happen. She said it >looks like a hovering pointed demon's head. (Whatever that is!) The fact >that she hates it just makes me like it a little bit more.... > >I am off to spend my second Sunday in a row assembling Ikea furniture. > >Thanks >Bill > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Later, Dayna & Randy --=====================_148416701==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bill - We have the deeper Tuscan with the yellow stained glass. The yellow tends to be more orange. I did suggest she try to find a more gold color. Nice anyway. Demon's head? Nahhhh!
Dayna & Randy Williamson


At 09:49 AM 10/12/2003 -0400, you wrote:
Hi All,

As some of you know, I moved into an apartment for the first time last
weekend. In an effort to make it a little mine, I hung the following in the
2nd bedroom/computer room.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Glass_Keystone.jpg It is a recent
Ebay win. The ad showed the white areas as being yellowish, but I am not
going to return it. It measures about 14" square.

Of course my wife hates it. I knew that was going to happen. She said it
looks like a hovering pointed demon's head. (Whatever that is!) The fact
that she hates it just makes me like it a little bit more....

I am off to spend my second Sunday in a row assembling Ikea furniture.

Thanks
Bill


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

Later,
Dayna & Randy --=====================_148416701==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:38:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] re Oil fired E6 tender -------------------------------1065976714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David. I cannot tell you what it looked like but I can identify it as a 70 P 66. It had 7150 water and 4100 gal. fuel oil capacities and 2D-T4 trucks. I hope this helps. Info from May 1948 109-? report. Ray Burghart SPF -------------------------------1065976714 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

David.
 
 I cannot tell you what it loo= ked like but I can identify it as a 70 P 66. It had 7150 water and 4100 gal.= fuel oil capacities and 2D-T4 trucks. I hope this helps. Info from&nbs= p;May 1948 109-? report.
 
Ray Burghart SPF
-------------------------------1065976714-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] re Oil fired E6 tender Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:21:14 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C390C3.B689C310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: I hope this helps. Info from May 1948 109-? report. It was 109J Al ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C390C3.B689C310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Re: = I=20 hope this helps. Info from May 1948 109-? report.
 
It = was=20 109J
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C390C3.B689C310-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:41:59 -0700 Subject: [PRR] N6b Hi Greg & Bruce, There is still a real N6b in Harrisburg, no? So forget the plans, just go measure & inspect the real thing. - Claus Date sent: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:36:31 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, ealauterbach@earthlink.net Copies to: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::[PRR] MTH N6b and L5 > Bruce writes: > > > Now why can't we get a nice RTR N6b in H0 scale. To answer your last question... apparently because it is so difficult to pin down what an N6B looked like. Pacific Mountain was planning on releasing a resin N6B (not RTR!) but backed off for lack of complete plans...< > > This is it in a nut shell. I could get it done... no problem but the underframe details and the lack of good plans is a problem. The body above the frame is not the problem... The underframe is the problem. There are not even good photos to work from. > > >they want to do it right or won' do it. IIRC, there are problems both with getting an accurate underbody arrangement drawing, and with the fact that there were multiple cupola styles (within the N6B!) and locations. Since this level of accuracy has never really bothered Bowser, maybe we can get them to do it (so buy LOTS of N8s!!) Happy > > Rails Bruce > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:27:44 -0400 List; What is the general thought on Rivarossi's 1930's streamlined passenger cars (sets A & B) as a stand in for Pennsy's Blue Ribbon fleets of the mid to late 1950's. Are any of the cars in these sets prototypical? Thanks for any input. MARK TAYLOR _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:36:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 03:27 PM, Mark Taylor wrote: > List; What is the general thought on Rivarossi's 1930's streamlined > passenger cars (sets A & B) as a stand in for Pennsy's Blue Ribbon > fleets of the mid to late 1950's. Are any of the cars in these sets > prototypical? Thanks for any input. MARK TAYLOR The "boat tailed" oberservation is correct. The 10-6 is correct for the "few" plan 9008 10-6's. The windows differed from the majority of the 10-6's. The RPO is "close" to one of the very rare PRR RPO's, but I don't recall the class; perhaps BM70n. Otherwise, scrap 'em! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:42:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04A0_01C390DF.C85AB380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark and Jerry: I think that the 10-6 Roomette car and the Observation are based on the = 1948-9 ACF cars that the Pennsy ordered for the Broadway Limited. The = Duplex car, is based on the 12-4 (or 12-5) car that the Pennsy ordered = from Pullman Standard in 1938. That car may have also been used on the = Broadway. As mentioned before, the RPO is loosely based on a PRR class in which = the railroad did not have many. There have been articles in RMC on how = to model it to the prototype. I can easily be done; the biggest tasks = are to remove the "fishbelly" center sill and replace the roof with one = that is available from Eastern Car Works. The Diner, Coach and Dome cars are NOT PRR prototypes and therefore = should not be used. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry @ Pennsy=20 To: Mark Taylor=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars On Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 03:27 PM, Mark Taylor wrote: > List; What is the general thought on Rivarossi's 1930's streamlined=20 > passenger cars (sets A & B) as a stand in for Pennsy's Blue Ribbon=20 > fleets of the mid to late 1950's. Are any of the cars in these sets=20 > prototypical? Thanks for any input. MARK TAYLOR The "boat tailed" oberservation is correct. The 10-6 is correct for = the=20 "few" plan 9008 10-6's. The windows differed from the majority of the=20 10-6's. The RPO is "close" to one of the very rare PRR RPO's, but I=20 don't recall the class; perhaps BM70n. Otherwise, scrap 'em! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_04A0_01C390DF.C85AB380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark and Jerry:
 
I think that the 10-6 Roomette car and the Observation are based on = the=20 1948-9 ACF cars that the Pennsy ordered for the Broadway Limited. The = Duplex=20 car, is based on the 12-4 (or 12-5) car that the Pennsy ordered from = Pullman=20 Standard in 1938. That car may have also been used on the = Broadway.
 
As mentioned before, the RPO is loosely based on a PRR class in = which the=20 railroad did not have many. There have been articles in RMC on how to = model it=20 to the prototype. I can easily be done; the biggest tasks are to remove = the=20 "fishbelly" center sill and replace the roof with one that is available = from=20 Eastern Car Works.
 
The Diner, Coach and Dome cars are NOT PRR prototypes and therefore = should=20 not be used.
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry @ Pennsy
To: Mark Taylor
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 = 2:36=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi = Passenger=20 cars

On Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 03:27 PM, Mark Taylor=20 wrote:

> List; What is the general thought on Rivarossi's = 1930's=20 streamlined
> passenger cars (sets A & B) as a stand in for = Pennsy's Blue Ribbon
> fleets of the mid to late 1950's. Are = any of the=20 cars in these sets
> prototypical? Thanks for any input. MARK=20 TAYLOR

The "boat tailed" oberservation is correct. The 10-6 is = correct=20 for the
"few" plan 9008 10-6's. The windows differed from the = majority of=20 the
10-6's. The RPO is "close" to one of the very rare PRR RPO's, = but I=20
don't recall the class; perhaps BM70n. Otherwise, scrap=20 = 'em!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Je= rry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania= =20 Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - = Home of=20 the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandis= e=20 Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com<= /A>


----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_04A0_01C390DF.C85AB380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:45:39 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars Guys, Sets A & B are IHC, not Rivarossi. The cars are not the same. This confusion still exists but has been discussed on the lists many times. Use the archives. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:56:15 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars Eddie: Rivarossi also now makes sets A and B... Products number 6958 and 6959 are the 1930's. You can look them up on the Walthers site (mfg = 635). A 1920's A/B set are also available. Jeff Warner Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: >Guys, > >Sets A & B are IHC, not Rivarossi. The cars are not the same. This >confusion still exists but has been discussed on the lists many times. >Use the archives. > >Regards, > >Eddie > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Overland is closing Cheyenne Industries Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:44:59 -0400 Hi All, I just got this in from my builder who is currently in China working on my pilot model. I am just passing along exactly what he sent me. I cannot confirm or deny its accuracy. Also, Overland is closing down Cheyenne Industries, its manufacturing operation in China. Lots of problems and building brass is not as easy as Tom Marsh expected. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:28:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Cars in Passenger Svc 1937 Hello Everyone, I am looking to model an N5 Cabin car in passenger service circa 1937, pre futura lettering. So far, I have only been able to locate one picture of a N5 from about this period, but it has dated 1939, has futura lettering, and appears to be all one color (freight car color). My main question is: were the roohs of cabin cars painted black in 1937, or should the entire care be painted car color? Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:30:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Quen Mary, where art thou? Does anyone know what happened to the Quenn Mary parlor car after it was built into a retuarant in northern NJ. (was this Citro's in Wayne?) I believe that the restaurant is now a business of some sort, and the trains (there were more than just the Quenn Mary as I remember) are all gone. Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:59:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Cars in Passenger Svc 1937 From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu > Hello Everyone, > > I am looking to model an N5 Cabin car in passenger > service circa 1937, pre futura lettering. So far, I > have only been able to locate one picture of a N5 from > about this period, but it has dated 1939, has futura > lettering, and appears to be all one color (freight > car color). > > My main question is: were the roohs of cabin cars > painted black in 1937, or should the entire care be > painted car color? > > Thanks!! > Fred Fred, Contrary to many RTR paint schemes, the correct color for cabin car roofs is FCC well into the 1950's. Black roofs come into vogue in the early to mid 1950's. Now, that sadi, a steam era cabin car roof might well be pretty sooty! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:38:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Historic Maps --part1_bd.37d51d5b.2cbb7824_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following two sites were sent to me by a fellow modeler and may be of interest to those of you researching rail lines. http://historical.maptech.com/ http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_bd.37d51d5b.2cbb7824_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following two sites were sent to me by a fellow mo= deler and may be of interest to those of you researching rail lines.

http://historical.maptech.com/

http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm=

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_bd.37d51d5b.2cbb7824_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:49:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic Maps On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > The following two sites were sent to me by a fellow modeler and may be of > interest to those of you researching rail lines. > > http://historical.maptech.com/ > > http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm The former supercedes the latter, as it contains strictly a superset of materials. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:55:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic Maps --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > The following two sites were sent to me by a fellow modeler and may > be of > interest to those of you researching rail lines. > > HREF="http://historical.maptech.com/">http://historical.maptech.com/ > > HREF="http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm">http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm > Note that these are, in a sense, duplicates of each other. The difference is that while the UNH site has elderly USGS maps for the New England states and New York, the maptech site has all of that plus New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. (They also have Virginia, but last I looked, they didn't have the index for Virginia up yet.) The point is, if you find a map at UNH; going to Mapquest won't get you an earlier or later version, just the one you already saw. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic Maps, and furthermore... --- robert netzlof wrote: > Note that these are, in a sense, duplicates of each other. The > difference is that while the UNH site has elderly USGS maps for the > New England states and New York, the maptech site has all of that > plus New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. (They also have > Virginia, but last I looked, they didn't have the index for > Virginia up yet.) I see I forgot Ohio, Maryland, and Delaware. Note that Derrick is one of the folks who has put a pile of time and effort into tracking down the maps and scanning them. Without him and others, the mapquest site wouldn't have half what it has. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic Maps, and furthermore... On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, robert netzlof wrote: > I see I forgot Ohio, Maryland, and Delaware. > > Note that Derrick is one of the folks who has put a pile of time and > effort into tracking down the maps and scanning them. Without him and > others, the mapquest site wouldn't have half what it has. maptech. and you overrate my contribution. I'd say this was at least 80% Chris's work, not to mention his project. I'm overdue for more scanning. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] CB-1 & CB-2 Train Symbols Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:56:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05F0_01C3911C.6E7B6C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone: I am doing research on train operations in Warsaw, Indiana in 1965. = According to the Western Region ETT (4/25/65), two trains named CB-1 and = CB-2 went through on the Fort Wayne Line. I do not have the ETT from the = Central or Eastern ETT for that same time period.=20 If any of you who do have these ETT, could you see where these trains = originated/terminated in the east? Thank you in advance! Ted Andrews ------=_NextPart_000_05F0_01C3911C.6E7B6C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone:
 
I am doing research on train operations in Warsaw, Indiana in 1965. = According to the Western Region ETT (4/25/65), two trains named = CB-1 and=20 CB-2 went through on the Fort Wayne Line. I do not have the ETT from the = Central=20 or Eastern ETT for that same time period.
 
If any of you who do have these ETT, could you see where these = trains=20 originated/terminated in the east?
 
Thank you in advance!
 
Ted Andrews 
------=_NextPart_000_05F0_01C3911C.6E7B6C00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew Brown" Subject: [PRR] PRR 250 Ton Derrick - trucks? Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:14:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01C3910E.41B386C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a number of pictures of the PRR's 250 ton derricks but in all of = them the trucks are in shadows and I can't see any details. Any = information on these would be appreciated. Thanks, -Matt ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01C3910E.41B386C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a number of pictures of the = PRR's 250 ton=20 derricks but in all of them the trucks are in shadows and I can't see = any=20 details.  Any information on these would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
-Matt
------=_NextPart_000_0138_01C3910E.41B386C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:29:26 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Kentucky coal via Cincinnati to Chicago.. history and an update Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via two possible routings)-Schererville IN, and was interchanged. Two routings because the direct route from Newman (Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I believe it was a manual block railroad. In a message dated 10/12/03 4:05:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:07:56 -0500 > From: "Joseph Santucci" > Subject: RE: Digest Number 1079 > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:32:38 EDT > > From: RickTipton@aol.com > > Subject: Hopper Interchange at Cincinnati > > > > In a message dated 9/23/03 5:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > > > > I would assume some railroad handled the majority of the L&N's coal > > > traffic out of Decoursy yard around the Cinncinatti area. I am guessing > > > the Pennsy? > > > > > > > I'm assured by Cincinnati railfans that it was split. Yes, much > continued > > from DeCoursey, across the river on the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, and > to the > > PRR at Undercliff Yard. Some of the Pennsy share went up the Richmond > Branch > > to Chicago. At one time a lot went up the Little Miami through Xenia to > > Columbus and then on the Sandusky Branch to the PRR pier(s) at > Sandusky/Bay Shore > > Yard. > > Much of the coal interchanged to the PRR bound for Chicago actually went to > US Steel in Gary, IN. The PRR took this coal to Schererville, IN via the > "Panhandle" line where it was interchanged to the EJ&E, then a US Steel > owned road, for the final portion of the journey to US Steel's Gary Works > plant on the shores of Lake Michigan. This routing continued through Penn > Central days and until the L&N took over the Monon. This traffic then > shifted to an all L&N routing into Northern Indiana via the Monon from > Lousiville getting interchanged directly to the EJ&E at Dyer, IN. This > entitled the L&N to a much greater share of the revenue for the haul. > > Today, this traffic goes through Cincinnati and up the former B&O using an > all Chessie System routing up through and across Ohio and Indiana to reach > US Steel. The traffic is still interchanged to the EJ&E, but now at Curtis > Yard in Gary which sits directly south of the EJ&E's Kirk Yard. The J now > only handles this coal about three miles from Curtis Yard directly into the > plant. > > Tuch > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:29:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] Kentucky coal via Cincinnati to Chicago.. history and an --part1_157.26082515.2cbbe696_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via two possible routings)-Schererville IN, and was interchanged. Two routings because the direct route from Newman (Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I believe it was a manual block railroad. In a message dated 10/12/03 4:05:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:07:56 -0500 > From: "Joseph Santucci" > Subject: RE: Digest Number 1079 > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:32:38 EDT > > From: RickTipton@aol.com > > Subject: Hopper Interchange at Cincinnati > > > > In a message dated 9/23/03 5:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > > > > I would assume some railroad handled the majority of the L&N's coal > > > traffic out of Decoursy yard around the Cinncinatti area. I am guessing > > > the Pennsy? > > > > > > > I'm assured by Cincinnati railfans that it was split. Yes, much > continued > > from DeCoursey, across the river on the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, and > to the > > PRR at Undercliff Yard. Some of the Pennsy share went up the Richmond > Branch > > to Chicago. At one time a lot went up the Little Miami through Xenia to > > Columbus and then on the Sandusky Branch to the PRR pier(s) at > Sandusky/Bay Shore > > Yard. > > Much of the coal interchanged to the PRR bound for Chicago actually went to > US Steel in Gary, IN. The PRR took this coal to Schererville, IN via the > "Panhandle" line where it was interchanged to the EJ&E, then a US Steel > owned road, for the final portion of the journey to US Steel's Gary Works > plant on the shores of Lake Michigan. This routing continued through Penn > Central days and until the L&N took over the Monon. This traffic then > shifted to an all L&N routing into Northern Indiana via the Monon from > Lousiville getting interchanged directly to the EJ&E at Dyer, IN. This > entitled the L&N to a much greater share of the revenue for the haul. > > Today, this traffic goes through Cincinnati and up the former B&O using an > all Chessie System routing up through and across Ohio and Indiana to reach > US Steel. The traffic is still interchanged to the EJ&E, but now at Curtis > Yard in Gary which sits directly south of the EJ&E's Kirk Yard. The J now > only handles this coal about three miles from Curtis Yard directly into the > plant. > > Tuch > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_157.26082515.2cbbe696_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky= coal routings to Chicago...
Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went Cincinnati-Richmond-Log= ansport(via two possible routings)-Schererville IN, and was interchanged.&nb= sp; Two routings because the direct route from Newman (Richmond) to Anoka (n= ear Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I believe it was a manual bloc= k railroad.

In a message dated 10/12/03 4:05:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lnrr@yahoogrou= ps.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:07:56 -0500
   From: "Joseph Santucci" <thetuch7@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Digest Number 1079


> Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:32:38 EDT
>    From: RickTipton@aol.com
> Subject: Hopper Interchange at Cincinnati
>
> In a message dated 9/23/03 5:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
>
> > I would assume some railroad handled the majority of the L&N's= coal
> > traffic out of Decoursy yard around the Cinncinatti area.  I=20= am guessing
> > the Pennsy?
> >
>
> I'm assured by Cincinnati railfans that it was split.  Yes, much continued
> from DeCoursey, across the river on the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge= , and
to the
> PRR at Undercliff Yard.  Some of the Pennsy share went up the Rich= mond
Branch
> to Chicago.  At one time a lot went up the Little Miami through Xe= nia to
> Columbus and then on the Sandusky Branch to the PRR pier(s) at
Sandusky/Bay Shore
> Yard.

Much of the coal interchanged to the PRR bound for Chicago actually went to<= BR> US Steel in Gary, IN. The PRR took this coal to Schererville, IN via the
"Panhandle" line where it was interchanged to the EJ&E, then a US Steel<= BR> owned road, for the final portion of the journey to US Steel's Gary Works plant on the shores of Lake Michigan. This routing continued through Penn Central days and until the L&N took over the Monon. This traffic then shifted to an all L&N routing into Northern Indiana via the Monon from Lousiville getting interchanged directly to the EJ&E at Dyer, IN. This entitled the L&N to a much greater share of the revenue for the haul.
Today, this traffic goes through Cincinnati and up the former B&O using=20= an
all Chessie System routing up through and across Ohio and Indiana to reach US Steel. The traffic is still interchanged to the EJ&E, but now at Curt= is
Yard in Gary which sits directly south of the EJ&E's Kirk Yard. The J no= w
only handles this coal about three miles from Curtis Yard directly into the<= BR> plant.

Tuch



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_157.26082515.2cbbe696_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Cars in Passenger Svc 1937 Fred, Like Bruce said, the cabin roofs were painted black pretty late, very late 40's-very early 50's. Your era the car should be painted FCC completely. Even the handrails and grabs. Those didn't start to get painted Yellow until (my educated guess from info found in a 1973 Keystone) 1947. Indeed, with these cabins operating in Steam Loco era, I would weather the roof with black overspray to represent the cinders and road grime that gathered there. For more info on Cabins in Passenger Servce there was an article with info and it listed all known cars assigned there. Can't remember the issue but it was one of the early b/w issues....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:44:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Cars in Passenger Svc 1937 From: Jerry Britton On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 08:32 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Even the handrails and grabs. Those didn't start to get > painted Yellow until (my educated guess from info found in a 1973 > Keystone) 1947. Would the same be true for diesel locomotive handrails? Atlas recently did RS1's and the handrails are not yellow. I figured the representation of the model pre-dated the practice of painting the handrails yellow. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Cars in Passenger Svc 1937 Jerry, Probably correct. The painting of Yellow wasn't a PRR rule, it was either FRA or ? for safety reasons. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:08:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Queen Mary, where art thou? Well, I actually answered my own question this time, at least partially. Rob Shoenberg's site has pictures of the Queen Mary built into the side of the Victoria Station/Wayne Station Restaurant. These pics were taken in 2001. Below is the link, and the Queen Mary is just past 1/2 way down the page. Next time I am down in Wayne (my family is fromthis area) I will see if the car still exists, and try to take some pictures, as I was told that this building is now an office, or some other type of non-restaraunt business now. In order to save the Queen Mary, the car would need most of one side, and probably an interior as well since it was used as a restaurant. Fred http://prr.railfan.net/PRRToday.html ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charles Chandler" Subject: [PRR] Rick Maguire's Layout Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:23:50 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C3916B.B67ED740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, Rick has a nice layout that was featured in the Oct. 1992 issue = of Railroad Model Craftsman. It's a PRR freelance design which fills = most of a 25'x20' attic. The mainline is double tracked with some triple = track sections. It features a stub ended passenger and freight yard and = also branch line operations. Rick also worked for the Pennsy as a = trainman and a conductor on passenger trains. Charles Chandler ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C3916B.B67ED740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry, Rick has a nice layout = that was=20 featured in the Oct. 1992 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. It's a PRR=20 freelance design which fills most of a 25'x20' attic. The mainline is = double=20 tracked with some triple track sections. It features a stub ended = passenger and=20 freight yard and also branch line operations. Rick also worked for the = Pennsy as=20 a trainman and a conductor on passenger trains. Charles=20 Chandler
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C3916B.B67ED740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] L2s a Cincinnati engine Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:27:31 +0000 Greg Martin wrote: I looked at this locomotive for article fodder and found out the outside diameter of the boiler sheathing on the Athearn 2-8-2 Mike is incorrect... The diameter of the boiler (as Athearn has released it) reflects the unlagged boiler itself. So to be done correctly you would have to remove all the details and roll the boiler like a Burrito with .030" styrene to get it close ... then add the details back on! So much for an easy, ot-of-the-box PRR steam project - anyone know if the diameter of the AHM/IHC USRA light Mike is correct? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:28:17 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars The duplex is a 1938 Mxxx BROOK series 12-5. They never ran on the Broadway. Do not confuse them with the 1949 Cxxx CREEK series 12-4 which did run on the postwar Broadway. Among the key visible differences is the size of the bedroom windows, and the vestibule being on the other side. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Ted Andrews wrote: > Mark and > Jerry: I think that the 10-6 Roomette car and the Observation are > based on the 1948-9 ACF cars that the Pennsy ordered for the Broadway > Limited. The Duplex car, is based on the 12-4 (or 12-5) car that the > Pennsy ordered from Pullman Standard in 1938. That car may have also > been used on the Broadway. As mentioned before, the RPO is loosely > based on a PRR class in which the railroad did not have many. There > have been articles in RMC on how to model it to the prototype. I can > easily be done; the biggest tasks are to remove the "fishbelly" center > sill and replace the roof with one that is available from Eastern Car > Works. The Diner, Coach and Dome cars are NOT PRR prototypes and > therefore should not be used. Ted AndrewsCarmel, Indiana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry @ Pennsy > To: Mark Taylor > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Passenger cars > On Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 03:27 PM, Mark Taylor > wrote: > > > List; What is the general thought on Rivarossi's 1930's > streamlined > > passenger cars (sets A & B) as a stand in for Pennsy's > Blue Ribbon > > fleets of the mid to late 1950's. Are any of the cars in > these sets > > prototypical? Thanks for any input. MARK TAYLOR > > The "boat tailed" oberservation is correct. The 10-6 is > correct for the > "few" plan 9008 10-6's. The windows differed from the > majority of the > 10-6's. The RPO is "close" to one of the very rare PRR > RPO's, but I > don't recall the class; perhaps BM70n. Otherwise, scrap 'em! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:31:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] End points, route for CB-1, CB-2. --part1_1db.126a1b79.2cbc2d54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/03 1:14:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: CB-1 & CB-2 Train Symbols > From: "Ted Andrews" > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:56:19 -0500 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_05F0_01C3911C.6E7B6C00 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hello everyone: > > I am doing research on train operations in Warsaw, Indiana in 1965. = > According to the Western Region ETT (4/25/65), two trains named CB-1 and = > CB-2 went through on the Fort Wayne Line. I do not have the ETT from the = > Central or Eastern ETT for that same time period.=20 > > If any of you who do have these ETT, could you see where these trains = > originated/terminated in the east? > > Thank you in advance! > > Ted Andrews > My notes from 1966 Arranged Freight Schedules say these "CB" trains ran between Chicago and Boston. Of course, it will be interesting to see which yard in Chicago, and whose yard in Boston. And what route past New York City... Just to keep things interesting, in 1972 PC was running a CB-4 from IHB (almost certainly Blue Island Yard) to Buffalo (probably Frontier Yard). But my guess would be this train didn't run on the Fort Wayne side. It sounds more like a Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (i.e., NYC) train via Elkhart, Toledo, and Cleveland. I mention this because a number of train symbols carried over into PC days from both PRR and NYC freight fleets. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1db.126a1b79.2cbc2d54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/13/03 1:14:16 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: CB-1 & CB-2 =20= Train Symbols
From: "Ted Andrews" <Ted_Andrews@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:56:19 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=3D_NextPart_000_05F0_01C3911C.6E7B6C00
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everyone:

I am doing research on train operations in Warsaw, Indiana in 1965. =3D
According to the Western Region ETT (4/25/65), two trains named CB-1 and=20= =3D
CB-2 went through on the Fort Wayne Line. I do not have the ETT from the=20= =3D
Central or Eastern ETT for that same time period.=3D20

If any of you who do have these ETT, could you see where these trains =3D originated/terminated in the east?

Thank you in advance!

Ted Andrews


My notes from 1966 Arranged Freight Schedules say these "CB" trains ran betw= een Chicago and Boston.  Of course, it will be interesting to see which= yard in Chicago, and whose yard in Boston.  And what route past New Yo= rk City...

Just to keep things interesting, in 1972 PC was running a CB-4 from IHB (alm= ost certainly Blue Island Yard) to Buffalo (probably Frontier Yard).  B= ut my guess would be this train didn't run on the Fort Wayne side.  It=20= sounds more like a Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (i.e., NYC) train via=20= Elkhart, Toledo, and Cleveland.  I mention this because a number of tra= in symbols carried over into PC days from both PRR and NYC freight fleets.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1db.126a1b79.2cbc2d54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] CB-1 & CB-2 Train Symbols Hello Ted, PRR's CB-1 and CB-2 were known as the "Yankee Jets",my favorite TrucTrain. I model this train as it rounded Horseshoe Curve in daylight. Also the train original symbol was "Jet-1" and "Jet-2" in 1961. PRR's Yankee Jet operated between Boston and Chicago(55th St.) via the New Haven RR-Maybrook-L&HR RR-Phillipsburg. This train was limited to 60 cars and "was to be operated at 65mph where conditions permit" This train traveled the Ft. Wayne in darkness. CB-1w/b arrived at Crestline at 8:50pm. Eastbound arrived at 3:55am. Even though it was a TrucTrain, it did handle carload boxcar freight and reefers.(Mechanical, no ice topped reefers) This train can be seen on the video "Pennsy Steam & Electric Years, 1955-1964". Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:40:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: CB-1 & CB-2 Orgin & Destination -------------------------------1066063228 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, I have a Central Region ETT dated 10/25/64 which shows CB-! & 2 running between Lucas and Banks in both directions. I have not found any thing showing it running further east Ray Burghart SPF. -------------------------------1066063228 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted,
I have a Central Region ETT dated 10/25/= 64 which shows CB-! & 2 running between Lucas and Banks in both directio= ns. I have not found any thing showing it running further east
Ray Burghart SPF.
-------------------------------1066063228-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:36:01 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Cabin cars before WWII Hi, all, To add to the mention of roof color, cabin cars in the 1930's may not have had collision post installed. The N5 as originally built had no collision posts. I seem to recall at least one photo in the late 1940's of an N5 w/o the posts. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:31:23 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] L2s a Cincinnati engine Ben and all, > So much for an easy, ot-of-the-box PRR steam project-anyone know if the diameter of the AHM/IHC USRA light Mike is correct? > Ben Hom I once ask Bob Hundman if he knew and he believed that the diameter was correct. I know that the Mehano drive is nice albeit at one time there was no flywheel but I beleive that to has changed.I think that is a better choise for the project. I know that after it was reveiled that the boiler was wrong his NKP 2-8-2 went on hold, after he scratch built the tender. Mike Brock is in the process of rebuilding the Athearn boiler. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars before WWII Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:37:32 -0400 Theres a ggod picture of an as built N5 in no. 36 of the Train Shed Cyclopedia on page 368. Trains Inc. makes one in HO brass. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] GG1 4876 Involved in Washington D.C. Crash 1950's- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:46:29 -0400 Subject: GG1 Involved in Washington D.C. Crash- PRR GG1 4876, was the locomotive involved in the crash during the 1950's in Washington D.C. Back ten years ago or so she sat in Baltimore under the highway bridges along the right of way that the B&O railroad museum owns in Baltimore, Maryland. I do not know if she is still there or not. (not on display in the museum proper, that was PRR 4890) Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:01:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4876 Involved in Washington D.C. Crash 1950's- From: Jerry Britton On Monday, October 13, 2003, at 01:46 PM, Harry Fitch wrote: > Subject: GG1 Involved in Washington D.C. Crash- > PRR GG1 4876, was the locomotive involved in the crash during the > 1950's in > Washington D.C. Back ten years ago or so she sat in Baltimore under > the > highway bridges along the right of way that the B&O railroad museum > owns in > Baltimore, Maryland. I do not know if she is still there or not. (not > on > display in the museum proper, that was PRR 4890) 4876 is at the B&O museum, but is not restored or actively displayed. According to one web site ( http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/survive.html ) listing of surviving GG1's, the 4890 was "Formerly at the B&O Museum, Baltimore, MD " and is now at "National Railroad Museum, Green Bay, WI". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Re: (LONG) F30a, possible other cars to build, Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:12:25 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C391B5.8E54B510 Content-Type: text/plain Guys; I think all these ideas are great. I would second Greg's and your suggestions about the G26. It is available in plastic and can be upgraded fairly easily, plus you can do it at whatever level you like. I would hope more folks join in to do some of these cars! I would also add the following: 1) Bowser HO GS upgrade: Jim Hunter did a marvelous job on upgrading the Bowser GS and it will appear as part of the article on that class in the November TKM. Folks could follow along with that one, and ask as many questions as they like. 2) Westerfield one-piece G22 as the first resin kit. It is really easy, and there will be an article on these guys in December, I hope, in TKM. Lots of neat variants, plus the container cars. 3) Sunshine or F&C FM flat car. This car is fairly simple, and builds up into a nice, and up to the 1950's, common car. Many went to MW after the 50's, but some lasted to the end. 4) RC X29 upgrade. Maybe we could do patch panels, paint, etc.? 5) Bowser X31 upgrade. Steps, roof grabs, what else? BTW, on the F30a: I spent some "quality time" with the issue of the Keystone done by Ian Fischer on the F30a and related classes, after our discussions last week (GREAT article). I really have to bite my tongue when I do this, as I start to sound like guys I don't like. BUT, I am really dissatisfied with the Bowser F30a. It is like a cross between a bunch of different cars/sub-classes. I WISH the Sunshine F30a was still available. It is SO much better. I want you guys to look at the Bowser F30a and read the article, and get back to me on what you think we should do about the following: a) Bowser car is rather angular and does not look like a casting. Ignore? b) Bowser car does not have poling indentations in the corners, which BTW are square, not rounded. Sand them round, and then file in a poling pocket? c) Bowser underframe has not casting "lightening" holes. Ignore? d) Bowser car has insufficient "lip" on the stake pockets. Ignore? e) Bolster edge casting with the weird "split oval" feature in the center. The Bowser one just looks wrong. Suggestions? When you look at the prototype F30a, it has a distinct roundness to the castings, most evident in the corners and flanges. We could soften that up a bit in places to make it more convincing. And the F30d version of the car, many of which went into Tt service, has no lip to the stake pockets. We could also add the hole in the B end to represent the access hole. Anyway, the Bowser car looks to be to be more like a F30d than F30a. And after looking at this, I think the F30e is a major kitbash from this. The side sill IS shallower, and the stake pockets are cut into a sheet that has no indentations. I am interested to hear all your feedback. And you can tell me if you think I'm being ridiculous. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Larry Smith [mailto:wooddale@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 9:02 AM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRRPro] Re: F30 Greg I tried to find the article, but my local hobby shop doesn't have that particular back issue. Do you happen to have the article and could you scan it and send it to me. By the way, did you know the F39s also had the old type of tie downs when they first came out? They also had the large stakes on the sides just like the F30s. Also, it was pointed out to me that one of the reasons for the holes in the rub rails was so they could put straps through them and strap the cars down to the flats, they were so paranoid about them coming loose. Larry Smith TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM wrote: > Larry Smith writes... > >> Funny thing is that I'm getting ready to do two F30D cars for a >> piggyback article I'm doing. Also doing two F 39 cars so this >> project will fit in perfect with what I'm doing. Go the rub rails >> coming from Stan. Also doing two F 30 cars for Lehigh Valley as >> pigs. Very different rub rails on that car. >> >> Larry Smith > > > > Larry, > > What did you do about your tie downs? Stan Radarowicz did a very > accurate job, did you see his? > > Greg Martin > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C391B5.8E54B510 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRRPro] Re: (LONG) F30a, possible other cars to build, and = some suggestions

Guys;
I think all these ideas are great.  I would = second Greg's and your suggestions about the G26.  It is available = in plastic and can be upgraded fairly easily, plus you can do it at = whatever level you like.

I would hope more folks join in to do some of these = cars!

I would also add the following:

1) Bowser HO GS upgrade:  Jim Hunter did a = marvelous job on upgrading the Bowser GS and it will appear as part of = the article on that class in the November TKM.  Folks could follow = along with that one, and ask as many questions as they like.

2) Westerfield one-piece G22 as the first resin = kit.  It is really easy, and there will be an article on these = guys in December, I hope, in TKM.  Lots of neat variants, plus the = container cars.

 
3) Sunshine or F&C FM flat car.  This car = is fairly simple, and builds up into a nice, and up to the 1950's, = common car.  Many went to MW after the 50's, but some lasted to = the end.

4) RC X29 upgrade.  Maybe we could do patch = panels, paint, etc.?

5)  Bowser X31 upgrade.  Steps, roof grabs, = what else?
 
BTW, on the F30a:
I spent some "quality time" with the issue = of the Keystone done by Ian Fischer on the F30a and related classes, = after our discussions last week (GREAT article).  I really have to = bite my tongue when I do this, as I start to sound like guys I don't = like.  BUT, I am really dissatisfied with the Bowser F30a.  = It is like a cross between a bunch of different cars/sub-classes.  = I WISH the Sunshine F30a was still available.  It is SO much = better.

I want you guys to look at the Bowser F30a and read = the article, and get back to me on what you think we should do about = the following:

a) Bowser car is rather angular and does not look = like a casting.  Ignore?

b)  Bowser car does not have poling indentations = in the corners, which BTW are square, not rounded.  Sand them = round, and then file in a poling pocket?

c)  Bowser underframe has not casting = "lightening" holes.  Ignore?

d)  Bowser car has insufficient "lip" = on the stake pockets.  Ignore?

e)  Bolster edge casting with the weird = "split oval" feature in the center.  The Bowser one just = looks wrong.  Suggestions?

When you look at the prototype F30a, it has a = distinct roundness to the castings, most evident in the corners and = flanges.  We could soften that up a bit in places to make it more = convincing.  And the F30d version of the car, many of which went = into Tt service, has no lip to the stake pockets.  We could also = add the hole in the B end to represent the access hole.  Anyway, = the Bowser car looks to be to be more like a F30d than F30a.  And = after looking at this, I think the F30e is a major kitbash from = this.  The side sill IS shallower, and the stake pockets are cut = into a sheet that has no indentations.

I am interested to hear all your feedback.  And = you can tell me if you think I'm being ridiculous.

Elden
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Smith [mailto:wooddale@bellsouth.net= ]
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 9:02 AM
To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] Re: F30

Greg

I tried to find the article, but my local hobby shop = doesn't have that
particular back issue.  Do you happen to have = the article and could you
scan it and send it to me.  By the way, did you = know the F39s also had
the old type of tie downs when they first came = out?  They also had the
large stakes on the sides just like the F30s.  = Also, it was pointed out
to me that one of the reasons for the holes in the = rub rails was so they
could put straps through them and strap the cars = down to the flats, they
were so paranoid about them coming loose.

Larry Smith 

TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM wrote:

> Larry Smith writes...
>
>> Funny thing is that I'm getting ready to do = two F30D cars for a
>> piggyback article I'm doing.  Also = doing two F 39 cars so this
>> project will fit in perfect with what I'm = doing.  Go the rub rails
>> coming from Stan.  Also doing two F 30 = cars for Lehigh Valley as
>> pigs.  Very different rub rails on = that car.
>>
>> Larry Smith
>
>
>
> Larry,
>
> What did you do about your tie downs? Stan = Radarowicz did a very
> accurate job, did you see his?
>
> Greg Martin
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=3D259395.3614674.4902533.1261774= /D=3Degroupweb/S=3D1705063576:HM/A=3D1524963/R=3D0/SIG=3D12o885gmo/*http= ://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=3D556&lineid=3D3614674&prop=3D= egroupweb&pos=3DHM>

>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email = to:
> PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the = Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


------_=_NextPart_001_01C391B5.8E54B510-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:45:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/13/03 Subject: Cabin cars before WWII From: Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:36:01 -0500 Thanks George, This brings up a good question: When were the collision bars installed/mandated/ordered? My Model is brass and has the bars. I will be darned if I will be able to pull them off!! Fred Hi, all, To add to the mention of roof color, cabin cars in the 1930's may not have had collision post installed. The N5 as originally built had no collision posts. I seem to recall at least one photo in the late 1940's of an N5 w/o the posts. George Pierson ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:03:28 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRRPro] Re: (LONG) F30a, possible ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: (in part) > Guys; > . . . > > I would also add the following: > > . . . > > 5) Bowser X31 upgrade. Steps, roof grabs, what else? > ======================================================= A great choice for enhancement since the first thing to do is replace the cast-on ladders and grabs. This usually requires matching the paint. But since the paint and lettering on theses cars is all wrong anyway, there is nothing to lose! Under "What else", I added A-Line stirrups and rudimentary underbody detail. Just enough so that rods and levers were visible in profile. I own too many X31s to super detail the whole fleet. -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] CB-1 & CB-2 Train Symbols Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:55:29 +0000 Dave, Ray, Rick, and the List: Thank you for your informative replies. This has really helped me alot. According the the Warsaw Tower trainsheets, CB-2 would pass through around 10pm to midnight. This would typically be the start of a busy eastbound peak period on the Fort Wayne Line. From 10 pm to 5 am, one would see CB-2, TT-8, TT-2, FW-8 and GRE-2. TT-8 would either be routed immediately ahead or behind CB-2. Once in a while both TT-8 and CB-2 would be combined. I surmised that CB-2 must be some kind of high priority freight to be combined with TT-8. Your answers confirmed that. How did CB-1/2 get to Phillipsburg? Did they get off of the Northeast Corridor at Trenton and then travel along the Delaware River to Phillipsburg? I do have another train that I am interested in. AC-1 and AC-2 were also on the Fort Wayne Line during this time. It is interesting to note that this symbol did not appear in the ETT in 1965. Conversely, NF-6 was published in the ETT however it was never recorded by the Warsaw operators in 1965. Could there be a relation to the absence of NF-6 and the addition of the AC-1 & 2 trains? Once again, thank you for your efforts and help! Ted >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >To: Ted_Andrews@msn.com (Ted Andrews) >CC: prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR Talk) >Subject: Re: [PRR] CB-1 & CB-2 Train Symbols >Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:34:36 -0400 (EDT) > >Hello Ted, > > PRR's CB-1 and CB-2 were known as the "Yankee Jets",my favorite >TrucTrain. I model this train as it rounded Horseshoe Curve in daylight. >Also the train original symbol was "Jet-1" and "Jet-2" in 1961. > PRR's Yankee Jet operated between Boston and Chicago(55th St.) >via the New Haven RR-Maybrook-L&HR RR-Phillipsburg. This train was >limited to 60 cars and "was to be operated at 65mph where conditions >permit" > This train traveled the Ft. Wayne in darkness. CB-1w/b arrived at >Crestline at 8:50pm. Eastbound arrived at 3:55am. > Even though it was a TrucTrain, it did handle carload boxcar >freight and reefers.(Mechanical, no ice topped reefers) > This train can be seen on the video "Pennsy Steam & Electric >Years, 1955-1964". > Hope this helps. > >Dave Hopson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access. Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:51:25 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Re: (LONG) F30a, possible other cars to ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: > Guys; > I think all these ideas are great. I would second Greg's and your suggestions about the G26. It is available in plastic and can be upgraded fairly easily, plus you can do it at whatever level you like.< And this is car that will compliment the F30a as well. With an F30a on either end it can be justified as a over-length load with a couple idler flats! So you don't even have to add a load to your F30a if your so inclined. > I would hope more folks join in to do some of these cars!< There are at least 57 of us out there and if everyone does one car each... jeeze what a display it will make! If we decide to the F30a and subclasses I have some neat stuff to add to the archives/photo section ready to go! > I would also add the following: > 1) Bowser HO GS upgrade: Jim Hunter did a marvelous job on upgrading the Bowser GS and it will appear as part of the article on that class in the November TKM. Folks could follow along with that one, and ask as many questions as they like.< I can't wait to see this car, I have one at home and it need some help! > 2) Westerfield one-piece G22 as the first resin kit. It is really easy, and there will be an article on these guys in December, I hope, in TKM. Lots of neat variants, plus the container cars.< I have never seen this car in the one piece body, I did see the multi-pieced body years ago that my brother did and at the time he upgraded the brakes to AB. It came out nice after he got two sides that were the correct legth...YIKES early resin had issues. > 3) Sunshine or F&C FM flat car. This car is fairly simple, and builds up into a nice, and up to the 1950's, common car. Many went to MW after the 50's, but some lasted to the end. > 4) RC X29 upgrade. Maybe we could do patch panels, paint, etc.?< I like the idea of the X29 project but there are two good authors releasing articles on the X29 and we might be best off to wait and see how it goes. Ben Hom has promised us one and I know my brother is working on one with a complete walk around with emphasis on the under-frames. He has a complete roll of film of nothing but the under-frame shot of two X29's taken by Mark Kerlick and I believe Mike Bradley. I know it offer four complete different variants of the X29. So we might want to wait. > 5) Bowser X31 upgrade. Steps, roof grabs, what else?< This to me is a must do and include some of the more popular subclasses and variants. I am currently working on a K9 and I would say that the step replacement might have to be done with Details Associates (which I know are fragile) as opposed to the traditional A-Line steps as the walls are thin and may not support the A-Line. I have just thinned the original down and kept them. Ladders, end Ladder rungs, Tack-boards (a real challenge) brake equipment needs help! These are what comes to mind. I have several to do... Again this is a car needed by the dozens. > BTW, on the F30a: > I spent some "quality time" with the issue of the Keystone done by Ian Fischer on the F30a and related classes, after our discussions last week(GREAT article). I really have to bite my tongue when I do this, as I start to sound like guys I don't like. BUT, I am really dissatisfied with the Bowser F30a. It is like a cross between a bunch of different cars/sub-classes. I WISH the Sunshine F30a was still available. It is SO much better.< Elden, we shall prevail... After reading your post through I figured a fix for all of this. > I want you guys to look at the Bowser F30a and read the article, and get back to me on what you think we should do about the following: > a) Bowser car is rather angular and does not look like a casting. Ignore? I am not sure I follow you here are we talking the side sill? > b) Bowser car does not have poling indentations in the corners, which BTW are square, not rounded. Sand them round, and then file in a poling pocket?< Nah, I can teach you all how to make very convincing poling pockets from slices of styrene tube stock... easy! > c) Bowser under-frame has not casting "lightening" holes. Ignore?< Some may wish to but I don't remember seeing them in profile photos, so do as you wish. > d) Bowser car has insufficient "lip" on the stake pockets. Ignore?< Fix with styrene it's likely just us die-hards that will fix C, D, and E. > e) Bolster edge casting with the weird "split oval" feature in the center. The Bowser one just looks wrong. Suggestions?< I wished I had the model in front of me let me get back to you on this one. > When you look at the prototype F30a, it has a distinct roundness to the castings, most evident in the corners and flanges. We could soften that up a bit in places to make it more convincing. And the F30d version of the car, many of which went into Tt service, has no lip to the stake pockets. We could also add the hole in the B end to represent the access hole. Anyway, the Bowser car looks to be to be more like a F30d than F30a. And after looking at this, I think the F30e is a major kitbash from this. The side sill IS shallower, and the stake pockets are cut into a sheet that has no indentations. > I am interested to hear all your feedback. And you can tell me if you think I'm being ridiculous. > Elden< No Elden you not being ridiculous it is just that you have raised the bar in your modeling and you want others to follow. Everyone just needs to remember some of the changes are elective, and we want all to strive to do better and be aware of the finer details. Not every car will be done to the same level. We are trying to encourage members of this group to take the next step, but I think compromise is just something we accept as part of the hobby. And your concerns of helping us be as good as we can is a good thing. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] CB-1 & CB-2 Train Symbols Hi Ted, PRR's CB-1/2 the "Yankee Jet" used the Bel Del line from Trenton NJ to Phillipsburg, handed the trains to the L&HR RR. It's a pretty wild route for a high priority freight. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:52:43 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRRPro] Re: (LONG) F30a, possible asmiller@mitre.org writes: >A great choice for enhancement since the first thing to do is replace the cast-on ladders and grabs. This usually requires matching the paint. But since the paint and lettering on theses cars is all wrong anyway, there is nothing to lose! >Under "What else", I added A-Line stirrups and rudimentary underbody detail. Just enough so that rods and levers were visible in profile. I own too many X31s to super detail the whole fleet. > Regards, S.> Andrew Miller ======================================================================================= The Elden Gatwood writes... Thanks, Andy! How did you carve off the ladders, particularly on the ends, and not go stark raving mad? Yours in fun, Elden ======================================================================================= Elden and all, I too have been sharpening my teeth on the Bowser K9 as an experiment for more intense Bowser rebuild program... 3^) I removed the the side ladders completely and then removed the rungs of the end ladders and removed the grab irons. I am struggling with removing and replacing the tack-boards, I probably won't on this first one as I am trying to "save paint" but knowing what I know now I will start with an undecorated kit next time around as the paint on these Bowser kits is horribly THICK and the color is so, so. I mentioned that I think the steps would be a stretch to convert to A-Line as I believe the wall thickness was a bit thin to hold up to handling. I just thinned mine with file and knife trick... you be the judge when complete. Again once I evaluate the first completed model I will adjust my thinking and stretch the limits. One thing I can't determine was once the cars were elected for the live stock service were the underframes rebuilt to match the ARR underframes as was the case with the K11's? In other words were the lateral stringers upgraded from a single to 2 or 3? I know this was done to most new 50-foot cars of the period, they were changed to 3... I have no proof this was done as I don't have underframe drawings. I want to be as close to correct as possible so I might change it and some might ask why. I do too! 3^) You'll never see it anyway. Perhaps some one watching will come up with the answer by the time I finish this one and move to the next one. Was the air reservoir changed to the transverse position as was the case with most Pennsy cars of the period, the 40-foot car was not (at least on the drawings). The next one will be done with the top screening and rub boards removed as well. I plugged the roof holes and used a KADEE running board (politically correct)and what a nice upgrade, I'm sold no more stainless etchings for me. I can't wait to finish this car to the point of shadow and highlighting as I think this will be a fun one for technique....! Then NO MORE PAINT BOWSER purchases for me! I still have a few to work through...YUCK! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:15:13 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] One PRR modelers opinion.... Hey Yuze Gize, A good friend of mine (Mark Kerlick)forwarded this note to me from noted SPF Mike Bradley of the Shanago variety... Many of you know him... If he is right and I certainly trust his judgement... what a disappointment because it will be diffecult to convince someone else to do the project. I wonder who Lee English used to help him with this project? Here goes Mike's report... Mark, During a recent visit to English's Model Railroad Shop, I happened to take a close look at what must have been a test shot of the new PRR/PC/CR N8 caboose that was sitting on a display track above the little operating HO and N gage loops. I was hoping to see the new cabin since several test shots of the earlier models that Bowser produced have also been displayed prior to being released. First I must say that only the body (less roof and cupola), handrail sprue and glazing were displayed. Actually two bodies were displayed. One had the handrails, grab irons and glazing installed and the other did not. Let me address each of the parts that I saw. Body I could not tell how close the body was to prototype dimensions as I had neither drawings or a scale rule. The rivets were quite fine, similar to the earlier N5C and N5. Looked good to me. The body had the vertical handrails at the very end of the side and the two adjacent small notches on the sides at floor level-nice. Window openings appeared to be correct with the rain drip above the window. The one thing that immediately jumped out at me when I saw the first body (before I saw the handrails) was the size of the holes for the cast handrails. They were quite large, perhaps .035 and reminded me of the large holes that KATO has on the sides of their cabs for the handrails. This is true for the sides and ends. Then I saw the handrails....... Handrails My heart sank a bit when I saw the yellow handrails and grab irons. One nice touch was that they appeared to be cast in yellow, but they appeared to be between two and three times thicker than the prototype. Going to separate handrails is great move, however, after the N5C and N5 had cast on handrails that were very fine is somewhat puzzling when the separate parts seem to be very heavy. It's like cast on = close to prototype, separate = too thick. What gives here? In my opinion, the thickness of the handrails needs to be reduced by close to 50%. Widow Glazing The one N8 body that I saw had glazing installed and my impression of the glazing was a cross between transparent and translucent. Kind of like the glazing that Bowser offered as an aftermarket part for the N5C's and N5's. The one thing that I couldn't help notice (and I realize that this was only a test shot) was that either the glazing was misapplied or that it was not the correct size as there was a gap about .010 on one side of the windows. Hopefully this will be corrected. (Actually, I would hope that American Model builders will provide an after market laser cut glazing package.) What I Didn't See One thing that I didn't see was any undeframe details. My recollection was that it appeared that the underbody/underframe was an integral part of the body. It also appeared that there will be separate draft gear covers and that the only other underbody details will be the typical three pieces. I also didn't see the roof or cupola and they will be critical to the cabooses overall appearance. I always thought that any attempt at an N8 (especially by Bowser) would end up in the $29.95 range, especially if it had separate handrails/grab irons, and glazing. BUT and a very big BUT is this. I believe that any caboose with this price tag should have a fairly well detailed cast brake system with brake lines as Branchline, Intermountain, Red Caboose have done with their freight cars. The handrails and grab irons should be much finer and the glazing should be pretty decent. I had ordered six of the N8's and quite frankly, unless the production runs incorporate some changes/additions, I'll probably only get one or two. In my very humble opinion, Bowser has produced some nice kits that were aimed at the middle of the road modeler for a very fair price. (Oh how I wish the round roof boxcars/livestock service cars had separate ladders/grabs.) But when you move your price up to the $30.00 level, the level of "expectation" rises as well. Some guys will be ecstatic with the N8 as it appeared. Why not go a little bit farther (detailed brake system and finer handrails/grab irons) and please all but the very fussiest modelers? Well, there it is, just an opinion. Oddly enough, I haven't seen any other posts regarding this caboose and it has probably been on display for at least two weeks. I'm curious as to what others opinions are out there. Mike All I can say is YIKES! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRTHS_Modeling_Committee] One PRR modelers opinion.... Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:46:00 -0400 Re: Mike's report on the Bowser N8. Yee gads. Here they go again, they screwed up the GS, screwed up the H21 and now maybe the N8. Lordy...Lordy. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:55:17 -0400 From: David Carl =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mallon=E9e?= Subject: Re: [PRR] Queen Mary, where art thou? Fred, Do you have an address - even a vague one. I live about 5 miles south of Wayne and cannot recall a Victoria's Station in the area. Wayne Station does NOT show up in the phone book. Guess I should have kept the old ones instead of recycling them. If you have a vague idea of where it was, me and my digital will go wandering tomorrow. David Fred Talasco wrote: > Well, I actually answered my own question this time, > at least partially. Rob Shoenberg's site has pictures > of the Queen Mary built into the side of the Victoria > Station/Wayne Station Restaurant. These pics were > taken in 2001. Below is the link, and the Queen Mary > is just past 1/2 way down the page. Next time I am > down in Wayne (my family is fromthis area) I will see > if the car still exists, and try to take some > pictures, as I was told that this building is now an > office, or some other type of non-restaraunt business > now. > > In order to save the Queen Mary, the car would need > most of one side, and probably an interior as well > since it was used as a restaurant. > > Fred > > http://prr.railfan.net/PRRToday.html > > ===== > Fred Talasco > > "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- "One grandfather worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad, The other worked for the Baltimore & Ohio. I have every damn right to be schizophrenic!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] One PRR modelers opinion.... Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:10:48 -0400 Greg Martin wrote: All I can say is YIKES! Oh well. Guess I'll have to keep working on that stash of Tyco caboose bodies... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Bachman H16-44 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:55:00 -0400 Gentlemen, Went shopping at a local train show this past, and purchased above mentioned loco. Upon arriving home, I pulled out Vol 5, Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives for some quick comparisons. YIKES tain't the same loco! Only the body's basic shape resembles a FS-16m, although it doesn't display the upwardly tapering ends. Rather than enumerate the necessary modifications, I have to ask if anyone has ever attempted "cleaning" this particular model so that it at least resembles a FS-16m? (To be honest, it appears as though Bachman "appropriated" the dies from Bowser's "Baby TrainMaster", and the less said about that the better). Thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:07:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman H16-44 On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Walter Prusick wrote: > Gentlemen, > Went shopping at a local train show this past, and purchased above mentioned > loco. Upon arriving home, I pulled out Vol 5, Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives > for some quick comparisons. YIKES tain't the same loco! Only the body's > basic shape resembles a FS-16m, although it doesn't display the upwardly > tapering ends. Rather than enumerate the necessary modifications, I have to > ask if anyone has ever attempted "cleaning" this particular model so that it > at least resembles a FS-16m? Atlas is doing the correct locomotive, so why would you bother? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:56:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman H16-44 --part1_190.21174818.2cbcdc0a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt, I guess I thought it was a well know fact the Bachmann offering was not even close to the PRR FS16m. It is very close to the New Haven unit but it doesn't even match that. I can be converted to a P&WV unit but even that will be a pretty major bash, but I will do it, just because. The carbody has been referred to a a phase 5 car body. Not sure whose railroad it really matched as is... Yes, it is close to the old Bowser/English pot metal version. I have one of those as well with the original Lindsey 7 pole drive. Greg Martin --part1_190.21174818.2cbcdc0a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walt,

I guess I thought it was a well know fact the Bachmann offering was not even= close to the PRR FS16m.

It is very close to the New Haven unit but it doesn't even match that. I can= be converted to a P&WV unit but even that will be a pretty major bash,=20= but I will do it, just because.  The carbody has been referred to a a p= hase 5 car body.  Not sure whose railroad it really matched as is... Ye= s, it is close to the old Bowser/English pot metal version. I have one of th= ose as well with the original Lindsey 7 pole drive.


Greg Martin --part1_190.21174818.2cbcdc0a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Bowser - as I see it...... Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:37:49 -0400 Hi Guys, Once again, what we have here is one person's early account of the detail quality of a new Bowser project (N8), and everyone is already disappointed. It may very well be 100% correct. Yes there is always room for improvement on ANY model project. You HO guys are missing the point. Look at your layouts or model stash and remove all the Bowser items from it. What do you have left? Almost nothing! At least they are coming out with new cars at a reasonable rate. They are American made from what I know about them. The PRR projects that Bowser has released have probably kept them in business. Now for the question you all know is coming. Are all of the Bowser products you all love to complain about NOT better then NOTHING? I seriously doubt it. Bowser does not HAVE to do any of them! As an S Scaler, I take every new piece released as a GIFT, because that it what it is. It is someone putting up $50,000.00+ and letting me play with it. Let Bowser release some of the PRR cars in S Scale. I may have some of the same concerns as you, buy will still buy the hell out of them because my days of buying massive amounts of brass cars are about over. Besides, if Bowser would release something in S Scale, they would probably do a better job because S Scale is the perfect size for detail. (:->) Sorry, but I had to do that! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser - as I see it...... Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:59:57 +0000 Bill Lane wrote: "Once again, what we have here is one person's early account of the detail quality of a new Bowser project (N8), and everyone is already disappointed. It may very well be 100% correct. Yes there is always room for improvement on ANY model project." OK, Bill, riddle me this: WHY IS IT SO HARD TO GET SOMETHING RIGHT THE FIRST TIME? I'm not talking about vent hole variations on the Class K9 stock car or anything like that - I'm talking about things as fundamental as getting the lettering right on the Class X31 boxcars. It's not like there's a lack of resources out there for things Pennsy, and for God's sake, the company's in Pennsylvania! Bowser is to be commended for doing their line of kits, and I'm certainly happy to have them; however, you're always going to be judged by your track record, and if you're going to charge Kadee prices for a piece of rolling stock, you better damn well have Kadee quality. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:10:05 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Bowser - as I see it...... Thank you Bill; and I suspect Lee English thanks you too! IMHO Bowser does an excellent job at building shake-the-box kits and has chosen PRR prototypes, much to our good fortune. Since they are molded in styrene and have the high up front cost, he must appeal to a mass market. That precludes doing a Westerfield caliber product. Since much of what he does are signature PRR cars, he is constrained as to what roads he can legitimately paint on the bodies. Notice that Branchline has kept to widely used bodies styles, and IM and RC don't seem to care, and will paint a car for anything. Despite all of theses hardships, Bowser has brought us X31s, X32s, GSs, F30s, H21s, and numerous cabin cars. These are far more than stand-ins. These are PRR prototypes. And for those desiring better detailed models, they are an excellent and inexpensive starting point. I only wish Lee would consider the world of passenger cars. Seventh heaven is populated with injection molded MP54s ;-) - prototype "shorty" which, in its non motorized version, could be legitimately painted for at least 8 roads. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Bill Lane wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Once again, what we have here is one person's early account of the detail > quality of a new Bowser project (N8), and everyone is already disappointed. > It may very well be 100% correct. Yes there is always room for improvement > on ANY model project. You HO guys are missing the point. Look at your > layouts or model stash and remove all the Bowser items from it. What do you > have left? Almost nothing! At least they are coming out with new cars at a > reasonable rate. They are American made from what I know about them. The PRR > projects that Bowser has released have probably kept them in business. > > Now for the question you all know is coming. Are all of the Bowser products > you all love to complain about NOT better then NOTHING? I seriously doubt > it. Bowser does not HAVE to do any of them! > > As an S Scaler, I take every new piece released as a GIFT, because that it > what it is. It is someone putting up $50,000.00+ and letting me play with > it. > > Let Bowser release some of the PRR cars in S Scale. I may have some of the > same concerns as you, buy will still buy the hell out of them because my > days of buying massive amounts of brass cars are about over. > > Besides, if Bowser would release something in S Scale, they would probably > do a better job because S Scale is the perfect size for detail. (:->) > > Sorry, but I had to do that! > > Thanks > Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:02:23 +0000 I guess I consider myself better than some but not a world class modeler by any stretch of the imagination. I have two problems one being time and the second being creating a PRR Phildelphia based corridor layout that requires copious quantities of rolling stock, power, track, structure, etc. So here are the questions. Having followed the thread criticizing the latest Bowser offering I am interested in how big some of your railroads are. Do you have a fleet of 300 superdetailed freight cars or do you have 20-30? How many passenger cars do you have? Do you superdetail some of the cars and run some (Oh the horror!) Athearn or MDC. How big are your layouts? Amassing 4-500 cars precludes Kadee, Westerfield, P2k and others for the most part for me. Do you who have to have every grab iron added instead of the "slippery ridge of plastic" look down your noses at the rest of us? Just curious because if all I had to do was two engines and ten cars it could be done a lot differently and I would even try proto 48 or whatever it is called. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:44:38 +0000 I can give you my 2 cents worth.... I model the Pennsy Fort Wayne Line in northern Indiana. I am also modeling a few eras of the Pennsy including the 1940-s thru 1965. I also have am doing a little modeling in the 1970's thru mid-80's. Needless to say, I have too many eras and too many railroads that I am interested in. To address your question on detail, I will give you my opinion. I basically superdetail engines, cabin cars, passenger cars, and some freight cars. The vast majority of my rolling stock is out of the box athearn, bowser, etc. I may weather these cars but typically I will not detail them. Here is my personal reasons: 15 years ago, I labored in superdetailing 3 Athearn GP-35's in PRR. Despite the wide hoods, they look great. But after I placed them on a train in a club layout, no one really noticed the detail. In the whole scheme of the large layout and the scenery, the detail of the engines can get lost. The lesson that I learned from this is to apply superdetail to things that are the focal point (engines, unique structures, cabin cars, etc) but superdetailing of everything else may be in vain. I can have those detailed engines and cabin cars but I if I weather Athearn and Bowser cars, most people, including myself, will notice those molded on hand rails. For those on this list, please don't take this a slap to those who want detail. I want detail as well but I personally have noticed that the fine detail can be barely noticed on a layout. If one is modeling a diorama, then high detail is the way to go. For those of you who desire high detail in rolling stock.....more power to you. I myself am slowing assembling a fleet of X29s from the Red Caboose. My personal comments are directed to the question in the original post if other modelers strive for high detail in everything....even on large layouts. Again, please take no offence to my personal opinions. Ted Andrews >From: ndbprr@att.net >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) >Subject: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions >Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:02:23 +0000 > >I guess I consider myself better than some but not a world class modeler by >any stretch of the imagination. I have two problems one being time and the >second being creating a PRR Phildelphia based corridor layout that requires >copious quantities of rolling stock, power, track, structure, etc. So here >are the questions. Having followed the thread criticizing the latest >Bowser >offering I am interested in how big some of your railroads are. Do you >have >a fleet of 300 superdetailed freight cars or do you have 20-30? How many >passenger cars do you have? Do you superdetail some of the cars and run >some >(Oh the horror!) Athearn or MDC. How big are your layouts? Amassing 4-500 >cars precludes Kadee, Westerfield, P2k and others for the most part for me. >Do you who have to have every grab iron added instead of the "slippery >ridge >of plastic" look down your noses at the rest of us? Just curious because >if >all I had to do was two engines and ten cars it could be done a lot >differently and I would even try proto 48 or whatever it is called. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:56:00 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: . Do you have > a fleet of 300 superdetailed freight cars or do you have 20-30? How many > passenger cars do you have? Do you superdetail some of the cars and run some > (Oh the horror!) Athearn or MDC. Simple. Club (about 1000 sq ft, 7 scale mile mainline)gets Athearn, MDC, out-of-era, and long passenger trains of cars without grabirons, etc (though I will gradually get a reasonably accurate Broadway completed with brass, NKP Car company sides, AMB sides, relettered AHM/Rivarossi). Bev-Bel paint schemes on 50 year old tooled boxcars, etc. Some semicraftsman PRR signature kits and lots of Bowser molded-on grabiron kits, though as I previously pointed out, I buy a few roundroofs undec to get color right. I draw the line at tuscan red boxcars and Sante Fe cabooses lettered PRR :-). Heavy steam, Bowser and brass. Home 2x12 switching layout (1950+/-)abuilding gets Red Caboose, Branchline, Westerfield, Sunshine Models. About 15 cars so far, never more than about 85 (about 30 on layout at any time). Light steam (H10, I1 w/ short tender, E6, B6). Home layout will have more sound-equipped locos eventually, except the big BLI locos acoming. Eventually several brass cabin cars will migrate home. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:13:44 +0000 Norm wrote: "Having followed the thread criticizing the latest Bowser offering I am interested in how big some of your railroads are." I help build and maintain rolling stock for two clubs - the Rensselaer Model Railroad Society's New England, Berkshire & Western and the San Leandro Railway Historical Society's Southern Pacific Western and Sacramento Divisions. Layout Size: NEB&W http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/images/visguide/visguide_toc.asp SP Three levels, approximately 40 x 25; see John Armstrong's "Southern Pacific Over Donner Pass on Display" March 1998 issue of Model Railroading for trackplan. "Do you have a fleet of 300 superdetailed freight cars or do you have 20-30? How many passenger cars do you have? Do you superdetail some of the cars and run some (Oh the horror!) Athearn or MDC." For clubs, it depends on what level of commitment the membership is willing to make. A large fleet of superdetailed cars is attainable if the membership is willing to make the investment in time and effort. At RPI, we have a total fleet of around 700 cars, of which approximately 200 are "Green Dot" superdetailed cars. At San Leandro, which is more of a local community organization, we have a total car fleet of around 300 cars, out of which approximately 20 cars are superdetailed. Do you need to superdetail every car in a large fleet? No. Can you make quick detail upgrades to improve the appearance of the cars you don't superdetail? Definitely, and that's what makes up the bulk of the RPI fleet. The "Tan Dot" cars receive minor detail upgrades including new brakewheels, running boards, stirrup steps, and weathering. These minor upgrades improve appearance a LOT, and make the difference of a superdetailed much less noticable. As for a personal layout, I won't get that started until I finish with the Navy. Until then, I can concentrate on building higher quality cars for my own use so by the time I'm ready to run trains, I'll have accumulated enough cars for a fleet. "Do you who have to have every grab iron added instead of the "slippery ridge of plastic" look down your noses at the rest of us?" I'll make a deal with you - you quit accusing me of ruining everyone's fun and I'll quit looking down my nose at you. ;-) Seriously, I won't deny that there are those that do, but spending time in the trenches at clubs dealing with people who have a wide spectrum of skill levels (and ham-handed clods who break equipment) has made me a bit of a realist; however, the basic upgrades I mentioned before aren't hard and they aren't time consuming. Additionally, do you honestly believe that today's availability of quality products would exist if a few modelers didn't ask the question "why don't our models look like the real thing?" I'll guarantee we'd still be in the seventies, where big manufacturers like Athearn and MDC, happy with their share of the marketplace, made no effort to improve the quality of their products or broaden the selection. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:31:24 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions ndbprr, Like several other posters, I belong to a club. In fact I belong to two clubs - neither of which is PRR oriented, but will have to do. Each is substantially larger than anything I could do at home. I keep my equipment at the clubs in private storage lockers. I only bring stuff home to work on it if the repair or upgrade is too big a job to do on the workbench at the club. I do not have a home layout. A breakdown of my roster is roughly: 450 freight cars, 250 passenger cars, 100 locos. This is ( as you surmised) too big a fleet to be entirely superdetailed. So a large part of my roster is "good-enough" stuff. Since the invention of the internet and my education at the hands of the experts in these groups, I have slowly undertaken the enhancement of my fleet. I have disposed of stuff that is just plain wrong. My PRR cars are, for the most part, accurate models with varying degrees of detail. e.g. I own about 40 Bowser H21s. None of them have been upgraded to the detail level of my Westerfield GLCAs, but I only have 4 of those. My Hobbyline quads (2), once painted PRR, are now both LV. My Athearn quads (4) have all had peaked ends applied and relettered C&O. All my freight cars are all weathered. Several years ago I started putting A-Line stirrups, 088 wheels and Plano roofwalks on all my cars. This is a long process. The roofwalks make the biggest visible difference. I had hesitated for a long time, because once you start with the Plano roofwalks, the rest of your house cars look like s**t! The breakthrough came when I realized that slightly over half of my house cars had wooden roofwalks, and Plano sells sheets of uncut etched roofwalk material in each of three patterns. One sheet provides enough material for about 9 cars. All of a sudden the conversions cost about $1 per car. It became affordable, even for a large fleet Now if I can just live to 120 ;-) I take similar care with my passenger cars. There are no stand-ins, and quite a few scratch built cars. My personal standards for scratch building have been similarly elevated by my membership in this, and other, groups over the years. Some of my older efforts have been pushed to the back of the locker. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I guess I consider myself better than some but not a world class modeler by > any stretch of the imagination. I have two problems one being time and the > second being creating a PRR Phildelphia based corridor layout that requires > copious quantities of rolling stock, power, track, structure, etc. So here > are the questions. Having followed the thread criticizing the latest Bowser > offering I am interested in how big some of your railroads are. Do you have > a fleet of 300 superdetailed freight cars or do you have 20-30? How many > passenger cars do you have? Do you superdetail some of the cars and run some > (Oh the horror!) Athearn or MDC. How big are your layouts? Amassing 4-500 > cars precludes Kadee, Westerfield, P2k and others for the most part for me. > Do you who have to have every grab iron added instead of the "slippery ridge > of plastic" look down your noses at the rest of us? Just curious because if > all I had to do was two engines and ten cars it could be done a lot > differently and I would even try proto 48 or whatever it is called. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:39:00 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions b.hom@att.net wrote: (in part) > I help build and maintain rolling stock for two clubs - the Rensselaer Model > Railroad Society's New England, Berkshire & Western and the San Leandro > Railway Historical Society's Southern Pacific Western and Sacramento > Divisions. > ======================================================= Ben, I am curious. Those two clubs are 3000 miles apart! Do you get reasonable mileage on your personal jet? ;-) -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] York train meet Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:52:26 +0000 I don't recall any posts about the Arsitocraft USRA 2-8-8-2 but having just visited their website they have test shots of it. The work so far looks excellent. They claim they will have it in York this weekend. If anyone attends I would be interested in a first hand report on the status of this engine. It is a USRA 2-8-8-2 and it appears to be massive. Pictures are on the Arsitocraft web page. My initial reaction is that it could be kitbashed into one of the PRR engines quite easily. Gary Mitner will probably make one for each of his cabin cars by the convention :-). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] York train meet Norm, This Aristocraft 2-8-8-2 has been in the works for quite some time. Mr. Polk has put much time and money into this project He promised way back it would be similar to the Proto 2000 model. We large scale people, including myself, was skeptical of his plans for this loco. First off, Aristo likes to reuse parts over and over. Look at his so called USRA 4-6-2 and 2-8-2. Hardly USRA looking to me. More Generic than anything. So we assumed this 2-8-8-2 would inherit many reuseable parts from their previous releases and end up with a useless generic 2-8-8-2. As you seen in the "test shot" of this new 2-8-8-2, it looks like he kept his promise of a Proto looking 2-8-8-2. Pretty Nice! With the yet to be installed details, it is looking like what he promised us. Now, time will tell on the Tender. Will he spend the extra $200,000.000 or so to do the molds correctly or is he going to use one of his other tenders, hopefully not the new Vanderbuilt he made for the 2-8-2. PUKIE! If he does it properly, he should have a winner. I don't plan??? on getting one but yes, with a bit-o-work, a PRR HH1 can be had. This is large scale. Can you imagne the room needed to operate one? I can see someone's Christmas Tree layout now. One 2-8-8-2, 2-3 cars and a caboose. The Loco pilot coupler will be coupled to the Caboose end coupler. Not sure why many people still think bigger is better. Some people have the same idea for Broadway Ltd in HO. They want Q2's S1's etc. Give me an H9, H10 anyday of the week. Yep, an H9 in G scale, hmmmm! Take a look at the scratch building forum on the Aristocraft site. Seek out the B&O Cincinatian 4-6-2 thread. This guy is Good! Almost puts me in the mood for a 1:29th scale Streamlined 3768 K4. Ah, someday maybe but I gots plans for something really neat......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:53:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] York train meet From: Jerry Britton Is the York Meet worth attending? I assume since the "T" in "TCA" stands for "toy" that I shouldn't take it all that seriously...and I bet there's not a lot of N scale. Opinions? I normally only do Timonium in January, which is their biggest show of the year since it's in the midst of the prime model railroading season...winter! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:06:34 +0000 Andrew Miller wrote: I am curious. Those two clubs are 3000 miles apart! Do you get reasonable mileage on your personal jet? ;-) The San Leandro cars are backlogged projects from when I lived out in California before the Silicon Valley bust forced me to move back east. Priority mail is a heck of a lot cheaper than the personal jet. ;-) As for RPI, I try to get up there once a quarter - it's about a 6 1/2 hour drive up from DC. I've been a member there since starting undergrad in 1985. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] One MORE PRR modelers opinion.... Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:16:40 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39276.EEEE59A0 Content-Type: text/plain Folks; I think we need to step back and stop this discussion here. We are not slamming Lee English or Bowser for what they have done for us in the global sense. We appreciate all the nice cars that no one else offers. But I, and others, should feel free to express our disappointment in things that could have been done better, and as expressed, need not have been done wrong in the first place. Granted, Bowser and others have made mass-produced, PRR-specific, steam, freight and cabins, available to everyone. And I am not going to criticize those of you that choose to run them as they are. But I also get to pursue the level of detail and finish I want without critique. And, while I don't get to critique Lee, I do get to critique the cars. I know that many of us upgrade Bowser cabins as the only game in town. We will continue to do so with the N8 if inclined to spend $30 and replace grabs and all. Maybe some won't at that price. How about we get back to the positive and talk about building/upgrading some models. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Frank Hom [mailto:b.hom@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:11 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] One PRR modelers opinion.... Greg Martin wrote: All I can say is YIKES! Oh well. Guess I'll have to keep working on that stash of Tyco caboose bodies... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39276.EEEE59A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] One MORE PRR modelers opinion....

Folks;
I think we need to step back and stop this = discussion here.  We are not slamming Lee English or Bowser for = what they have done for us in the global sense.  We appreciate all = the nice cars that no one else offers.  But I, and others, should = feel free to express our disappointment in things that could have been = done better, and as expressed, need not have been done wrong in the = first place.

Granted, Bowser and others have made mass-produced, = PRR-specific, steam, freight and cabins, available to everyone.  = And I am not going to criticize those of you that choose to run them as = they are.  But I also get to pursue the level of detail and finish = I want without critique.  And, while I don't get to critique Lee, = I do get to critique the cars.

I know that many of us upgrade Bowser cabins as the = only game in town.  We will continue to do so with the N8 if = inclined to spend $30 and replace grabs and all.  Maybe some won't = at that price.

How about we get back to the positive and talk about = building/upgrading some models.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Frank Hom [mailto:b.hom@worldnet.att.net= ]
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:11 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] One PRR modelers = opinion....

Greg Martin wrote:
All I can say is YIKES!

Oh well.  Guess I'll have to keep working on = that stash of Tyco caboose
bodies...


Ben Hom


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39276.EEEE59A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:31:07 -0400 And then imagine me, Trying to get the NE corridor through Philadelphia from Fankfort junction to Holmes tower with some Bustleton branch thrown in........ On a 28 X 72 door in N Scale Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:02 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions I guess I consider myself better than some but not a world class modeler by any stretch of the imagination. I have two problems one being time and the second being creating a PRR Phildelphia based corridor layout that requires copious quantities of rolling stock, power, track, structure, etc. So here are the questions. Having followed the thread criticizing the latest Bowser offering I am interested in how big some of your railroads are. Do you have a fleet of 300 superdetailed freight cars or do you have 20-30? How many passenger cars do you have? Do you superdetail some of the cars and run some (Oh the horror!) Athearn or MDC. How big are your layouts? Amassing 4-500 cars precludes Kadee, Westerfield, P2k and others for the most part for me. Do you who have to have every grab iron added instead of the "slippery ridge of plastic" look down your noses at the rest of us? Just curious because if all I had to do was two engines and ten cars it could be done a lot differently and I would even try proto 48 or whatever it is called. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:57:27 -0400 It's rather funny that this thread came up. Driving home from Timonium Sunday evening my friend and I were talking about how in todays modeling world, less people "model" and most are willing to buy built-up kits. For example, why put time in building a P2K 50' Auto bow when I can get one for $10 and all I do is switch the couplers to Kadee's. We've surmised that out of the 30-40 members of the Miniature Railroad Club of York. 10 of us actually "model" as in build, paint, etc. Not all of our cars are IC, RC, or P2K. At least half of the fleet I run are painted and decaled. I cherish the Athearn streamliners that i first receievd as a christmas gift and it was the first complete train i painted and decaled myself. The cars that i would go out of my way to detail would be for a modeling contest. But because of my situation transporting cars between my home and the club Its more econocmical to have more ruggedly built cars with cast on grabs. Modeling the PRR or any road is what you want it to be. Just like the color of a PRR car or any other car. To obtain a 30's version of FCC is inconcievable, All cars never maintained thier exact original coat of paint. All cars becamed wheathered in some shape or form. Theres my 5 cents. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] ID those CARS! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:23:05 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39280.35C8FF20 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; I just relocated (I'd seen them before and Mark helped me figure out where!) a couple great John Vachon photos from just before WW2 at the American Memory site: lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html Search for : "Vachon" "Railroad Cars" "Jones Laughlin" These cars are sitting in the yard south of, I think, the Brady Street Bridge in Pittsburgh. You are looking, I think, at the north end of the J&L mill on the South Side. The cars are a mix from J&L and other folks along the Monongahela River. I suspect the yard is P&LE. There is a PRR gon at lower right with a load of billets? For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon? Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)? Is that a PMcK & Y or P&LE gon on its left? What kind of slab racks are those? What about that container car that sits above (further away than) the X29-looking box at center left? Is that an X29, or something else with plate ends? What are the other cars? What do the loads appear to be? For those of us that love open cars (and closed ones for that matter), what do you figure all those loads to be made up of, specifically? How big are those slabs? Do you see the writing on the ends of the slabs? Is that COOL, or what? For us folks that like to know what to do with individual cars, how to load them, and what mixes are appropriate in a place like this, are you jazzed? Can we mortals get this (these) photo(s) blown up by these guys? For what fee? Thanks for your insights! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39280.35C8FF20 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ID those CARS!

Hi all;
I just relocated (I'd seen them before and Mark = helped me figure out where!) a couple great John Vachon photos from = just before WW2 at the American Memory site:

lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html
Search for : "Vachon" "Railroad = Cars" "Jones Laughlin"

These cars are sitting in the yard south of, I think, = the Brady Street Bridge in Pittsburgh.  You are looking, I think, = at the north end of the J&L mill on the South Side.  The cars = are a mix from J&L and other folks along the Monongahela = River.  I suspect the yard is P&LE.  There is a PRR gon = at lower right with a load of billets?

For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon?  = Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)?  Is that a PMcK = & Y or P&LE gon on its left?  What kind of slab racks are = those?  What about that container car that sits above (further = away than) the X29-looking box at center left?  Is that an X29, or = something else with plate ends?  What are the other cars?  = What do the loads appear to be?

For those of us that love open cars (and closed ones = for that matter), what do you figure all those loads to be made up of, = specifically?  How big are those slabs?  Do you see the = writing on the ends of the slabs?  Is that COOL, or = what?

For us folks that like to know what to do with = individual cars, how to load them, and what mixes are appropriate in a = place like this, are you jazzed?

Can we mortals get this (these) photo(s) blown up by = these guys?  For what fee?

Thanks for your insights!

Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39280.35C8FF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Queen Mary, Where art thou? OK, I have received more info in regards to the PRR owned PULLMAN Parlor car: QUEEN MARY. The below is from the architectural firm that designed the Victoria Station Restarant in Wayne, NJ. This email not only sheds light on how much of the car side ws removed, but also makes the connection between Citro's (The name I knew of) and the Victoria Station. I myself was in the traffic jam created by the trucking of this car to the restaurant in the very early 1970's. Fred "It is my understanding that the parlor-observation car Queen Mary was last used by Lady Bird Johnson before being moved to Citro's Milk Bar which was subsequently sold to Victoria Station. I believe there was a car side opening about 6 ft wide in the car when we began work on it. The interior and exterior were completely cosmetically restored after 110 volt lighting and air conditioning systems were modified/added. In my opinion the car side opening could be infilled and the electrical and mechanical systems adapted/ revised. However, it is unlikely that it could ever run again (in other than short line service), without very expensive truck, brake, signal line and coupler upgrades in order to meet Amtrak standards. It could be rejected by any railroad for interchange service-just based on its age, so any pre-restoration move would have to be by truck." > Subject: Queen Mary, where art thou? > From: "Fred Talasco" > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:08:11 -0700 (PDT) > > Well, I actually answered my own question this time, > at least partially. Rob Shoenberg's site has > pictures > of the Queen Mary built into the side of the > Victoria > Station/Wayne Station Restaurant. These pics were > taken in 2001. Below is the link, and the Queen Mary > is just past 1/2 way down the page. Next time I am > down in Wayne (my family is fromthis area) I will > see > if the car still exists, and try to take some > pictures, as I was told that this building is now an > office, or some other type of non-restaraunt > business > now. > > In order to save the Queen Mary, the car would need > most of one side, and probably an interior as well > since it was used as a restaurant. > > Fred > > http://prr.railfan.net/PRRToday.html > > > ===== > Fred Talasco > > > "There is just one thing I can promise you about the > outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go > further." Wernher von Braun > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ID those CARS! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:22:53 +0000 Elden Gatwood asked: "For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon?" The one on the second occupied track from the right appears to be a Class GS gon. The point of view of the second photo allows you to count the ribs (10). "Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)?" Sure is - PMcK&Y 83400-83891, Lots 630-B and 638-B, prototype for Tichy's HO scale rebuilt boxcar. "Is that an X29, or something else with plate ends?" If you're a betting man, the odds are real good that it's an X29. From this angle, you simply can't see the spotting features that would prove otherwise (truck spacing, side sheet rivet pattern). "What are the other cars?" A couple other cars of interest on the first occupied track on the right: First gon from foreground: NYC 1936-rebuilt USRA composite gon, modeled in HO, S, and O by Funaro. Next car: Most likely CB&Q Class XM-17 or XM-18 DS truss-rod boxcar. (Westerfield 8900 series kits) Note how easy it is to spot the Class GLCA hopper in the left background due to its fishbelly sidesill - one of the reasons why this car begs to be done in injection molded styrene. "Can we mortals get this (these) photo(s) blown up by these guys? For what fee?" (1) Take down the LC-US... number listed in the Reproduction Number field. (2) Ordering information is at http://lcweb.loc.gov/preserv/pds/photo.html#stand They're not cheap - an 8x10 is $22, 11x14 $30, 16x20 $36, 20x24 $52, but they're well worth it. I've browsed the FSA-OWI stacks at the Library of Congress and found that I could go through the photo cards faster there than on my computer. It's worth a trip if you're in the District during the week. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] plastic safety appliances Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:43:06 -0400 >>> Model Railroading is Fun! <<< I have brass, I have junk, I have Armstrong, Odegard & Frary and I have Larry, Moe & Curly; but I still have fun with or without my genuine imitation almost real plastic safety appliances on my HO scale rolling stock. None of my HO people have ever suffered a lost time accident due to one of these integral plastic safety appliances nor have they reported one from the wood house car I cobbled together 30 years ago and forgot to install steps on it. Not so much as one grievance from the Brotherhoods! Slowly Inhale - Now Exhale ......... We are all friends here. Smile... it doesn't hurt.... And that boy can run his dang L2s anywhere he pleases without adding .020" to the boiler! With Warmest Wishes and a Good Day to All, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:44:22 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Bowser YIKES! billlane@comcast.net writes: >Hi Guys, >Once again, what we have here is one person's early account of the detail quality of a new Bowser project (N8), and everyone is already disappointed. It may very well be 100% correct.< I have no doubt that what I posted by my good friend is what he saw. He is not the type to pull our chains... There are good reasons to be disappointed. He gives Bowser the benifit of the doubt by mentioning what he saw was test shots... >Yes there is always room for improvement on ANY model project. You HO guys are missing the point.< Bill, Andy and whom ever don't try to promote mediocracy to me... I ask for someone who had access to the plans for the N8 to step forward, but it is obvious that someone was protecting someone... Now look! >Look at your layouts or model stash and remove all the Bowser items from it. What do you have left? Almost nothing! At least they are coming out with new cars at a reasonable rate. They are American made from what I know about them. The PRR projects that Bowser has released have probably kept them in business.< I don't doubt that Bowser is in business because of the projects he has released. I personally don't care what nation produces a kit for our market, it matters not, look at the military models coming out, they're not just from Japan anymore. Bill, $30.00 per caboose is not reasonable on Mike's account of what we are getting fed! >Now for the question you all know is coming. Are all of the Bowser products you all love to complain about NOT better then NOTHING? I seriously doubt it. Bowser does not HAVE to do any of them!< And the answer is NO! But in the current competitve climate of the MR hobby what are they thinking? The problem is that now others who could make them better are less inclined to do so, but perhaps not forever. >As an S Scaler, I take every new piece released as a GIFT, because that it what it is. It is someone putting up $50,000.00+ and letting me play with it.< I take any new release at face value and decide to buy or not to buy. If $30.00 is the price of a built up N* caboose and I can get my hands on a set of those plans, Bowser will learn what the word competition is really all about. Just like the PRR G39, Stewart will have a competitor, and detail will prevail. It's not vengence it's business. >Let Bowser release some of the PRR cars in S Scale... SNIP! > Thanks > Bill< Many of us work with manufacturers to bring products to market that help rasise the bar in the hobby, it gives me good reason to be concerned when I read a review from a trusted friend and read the disappointment in the message. But we shall prevail. There are just enough of us out there that we can get waht we pay for and we don't mind paying the price. There are other fish to fry... There were more N6a/b (all subclasses) built than any other caboose on the PRR. For the minute my focus will be directed there. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:49:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ID those CARS! From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-18--193073265 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 01:23 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Hi all; > I just relocated (I'd seen them before and Mark helped me figure out =20= > where!) a couple great John Vachon photos from just before WW2 at the =20= > American Memory site: > > lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html > Search for : "Vachon" "Railroad Cars" "Jones Laughlin" > > These cars are sitting in the yard south of, I think, the Brady Street = =20 > Bridge in Pittsburgh.=A0 You are looking, I think, at the north end of = =20 > the J&L mill on the South Side.=A0 The cars are a mix from J&L and = other =20 > folks along the Monongahela River.=A0 I suspect the yard is P&LE.=A0 = There =20 > is a PRR gon at lower right with a load of billets? > > For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon?=A0 GS? > Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)? Looks like it might be > =A0 Is that a PMcK & Y or P&LE gon on its left?=A0 What kind of slab = racks =20 > are those? The gon looks like the LLP2K 53' gon. The next row left looks like two =20= very shallow gons coupled to that X29. The next row left appears to be =20= a flat car with racks that have points sticking up outside the slabs. =20= The racks look like wood. The gon just beyond it has a NICE looking =20 ding in the side. > =A0 What about that container car that sits above (further away than) =20= > the X29-looking box at center left?=A0 Is that an X29, or something = else =20 > with plate ends?=A0 What are the other cars?=A0 What do the loads = appear =20 > to be? Don't miss the hoppers on the left either. At least one appears to =20 have a box section end sill like a GL? class and is that a GLC in the =20= upper left? The hoppers appear to have 1/2 loads which might be either =20= coke, metallurgic coal or ore. A lot of the gon loads look like billets of steel or sheet steel. The =20= empty gons aren't "empty" either. Looks like dirt/dust/coal in the =20 bottoms with some dunnage. Some of the gons in the distance appear to =20= have scrap loads. And as noted, boxcars mixed in (so steel mill =20 traffic should include house cars!!!) > For those of us that love open cars (and closed ones for that matter), = =20 > what do you figure all those loads to be made up of, specifically?=A0 =20= > How big are those slabs?=A0 Do you see the writing on the ends of the =20= > slabs?=A0 Is that COOL, or what? > > For us folks that like to know what to do with individual cars, how to = =20 > load them, and what mixes are appropriate in a place like this, are =20= > you jazzed? Oh YEAH! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-18--193073265 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 01:23 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: Hi all; I just relocated (I'd seen them before and Mark helped me figure out where!) a couple great John Vachon photos from just before WW2 at the American Memory site: lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html Search for : "Vachon" "Railroad Cars" "Jones Laughlin" These cars are sitting in the yard south of, I think, the Brady Street Bridge in Pittsburgh.=A0 You are looking, I think, at the north end of the J&L mill on the South Side.=A0 The cars are a mix from J&L and other folks along the Monongahela River.=A0 I suspect the yard is P&LE.=A0 There is a PRR gon at lower right with a load of = billets? For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon?=A0 GS? Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)? Looks like it might be =A0 Is that a PMcK & Y or P&LE gon on its left?=A0 = What kind of slab racks are those? The gon looks like the LLP2K 53' gon. The next row left looks like two very shallow gons coupled to that X29. The next row left appears to be a flat car with racks that have points sticking up outside the slabs. The racks look like wood. The gon just beyond it has a NICE looking ding in the side. =A0 What about that container car that sits above (further away than) the X29-looking box at center left?=A0 Is that an X29, or something else with plate ends?=A0 What are the other cars?=A0 What do the loads appear to be? Don't miss the hoppers on the left either. At least one appears to have a box section end sill like a GL? class and is that a GLC in the upper left? The hoppers appear to have 1/2 loads which might be either coke, metallurgic coal or ore. A lot of the gon loads look like billets of steel or sheet steel. The empty gons aren't "empty" either. Looks like dirt/dust/coal in the bottoms with some dunnage. Some of the gons in the distance appear to have scrap loads. And as noted, boxcars mixed in (so steel mill traffic should include house cars!!!) For those of us that love open cars (and closed ones for that matter), what do you figure all those loads to be made up of, specifically?=A0 How big are those slabs?=A0 Do you see the writing on = the ends of the slabs?=A0 Is that COOL, or what? For us folks that like to know what to do with individual cars, how to load them, and what mixes are appropriate in a place like this, are you jazzed? Oh YEAH! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-18--193073265-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] ID those CARS! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:56:06 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3928D.3443ABC0 Content-Type: text/plain Ben; Thanks for your quick reply! I am glad you confirmed much of what I thought I was seeing, and added even more useful info. I thought that might be a GS. I am doing a Sunshine GS and it will look a lot like that guy, albeit rustier for my time period. I just finished an ex-PMcK&Y P&LE USRA 46' and one of the F&C rebuild NYC gons, so I thought I recognized both of those. These are those rare photos that contain all the necessary elements for good layout modeling. Cars, loads, environment, customer.... Based on your feedback, I sure wish I was in the D.C. area. Thanks again, Elden -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:23 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ID those CARS! Elden Gatwood asked: "For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon?" The one on the second occupied track from the right appears to be a Class GS gon. The point of view of the second photo allows you to count the ribs (10). "Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)?" Sure is - PMcK&Y 83400-83891, Lots 630-B and 638-B, prototype for Tichy's HO scale rebuilt boxcar. "Is that an X29, or something else with plate ends?" If you're a betting man, the odds are real good that it's an X29. From this angle, you simply can't see the spotting features that would prove otherwise (truck spacing, side sheet rivet pattern). "What are the other cars?" A couple other cars of interest on the first occupied track on the right: First gon from foreground: NYC 1936-rebuilt USRA composite gon, modeled in HO, S, and O by Funaro. Next car: Most likely CB&Q Class XM-17 or XM-18 DS truss-rod boxcar. (Westerfield 8900 series kits) Note how easy it is to spot the Class GLCA hopper in the left background due to its fishbelly sidesill - one of the reasons why this car begs to be done in injection molded styrene. "Can we mortals get this (these) photo(s) blown up by these guys? For what fee?" (1) Take down the LC-US... number listed in the Reproduction Number field. (2) Ordering information is at http://lcweb.loc.gov/preserv/pds/photo.html#stand They're not cheap - an 8x10 is $22, 11x14 $30, 16x20 $36, 20x24 $52, but they're well worth it. I've browsed the FSA-OWI stacks at the Library of Congress and found that I could go through the photo cards faster there than on my computer. It's worth a trip if you're in the District during the week. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3928D.3443ABC0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] ID those CARS!

Ben;

Thanks for your quick reply!  I am glad you = confirmed much of what I thought I was seeing, and added even more = useful info.  I thought that might be a GS.  I am doing a = Sunshine GS and it will look a lot like that guy, albeit rustier for my = time period.  I just finished an ex-PMcK&Y P&LE USRA 46' = and one of the F&C rebuild NYC gons, so I thought I recognized both = of those.

These are those rare photos that contain all the = necessary elements for good layout modeling.  Cars, loads, = environment, customer....

Based on your feedback, I sure wish I was in the D.C. = area.

Thanks again,

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:23 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID those CARS!

Elden Gatwood asked:
"For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR = gon?"
The one on the second occupied track from the right = appears to be a Class GS
gon.  The point of view of the second photo = allows you to count the ribs (10).


"Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far = right)?"
Sure is - PMcK&Y 83400-83891, Lots 630-B and = 638-B, prototype for Tichy's HO
scale rebuilt boxcar.


"Is that an X29, or something else with plate = ends?"
If you're a betting man, the odds are real good that = it's an X29.  From this
angle, you simply can't see the spotting features = that would prove otherwise
(truck spacing, side sheet rivet pattern).


"What are the other cars?"
A couple other cars of interest on the first = occupied track on the right:

First gon from foreground:  NYC 1936-rebuilt = USRA composite gon, modeled in
HO, S, and O by Funaro.
 
Next car:  Most likely CB&Q Class XM-17 or = XM-18 DS truss-rod boxcar. 
(Westerfield 8900 series kits)

Note how easy it is to spot the Class GLCA hopper in = the left background due
to its fishbelly sidesill - one of the reasons why = this car begs to be done
in injection molded styrene.


"Can we mortals get this (these) photo(s) blown = up by these guys?  For what
fee?"
(1) Take down the LC-US... number listed in the = Reproduction Number field.
(2) Ordering information is at
http://lcweb.loc.gov/preserv/pds/photo.html#stand<= /FONT>
They're not cheap - an 8x10 is $22, 11x14 $30, 16x20 = $36, 20x24 $52, but
they're well worth it.  I've browsed the = FSA-OWI stacks at the Library of
Congress and found that I could go through the photo = cards faster there than
on my computer.  It's worth a trip if you're in = the District during the week.


Ben Hom

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3928D.3443ABC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Positioon light signal Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:57:29 +0000 Does anyone know of any pictures of the yard type position light signals or drawings of them? I'd like to see a close up of one of these from both the front and back if possible. Thanks for any leads. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] ID those CARS! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:16:21 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39290.08E3AB30 Content-Type: text/plain Ben and Bruce; You guys are lucky. I don't get many photos like this to use directly (aren't you guys doing ~'50?). I do remember that stuff in the bottoms of the gons, as the steel-making process was pretty similar even in my time (I was there in the mid-60's thru 1980). That stuff in those two gons in the center gives all the appearnce of that red/black combo of cinders and mill scale that either accumulated from scrap/mill waste or was sometimes put in there to insulate certain loads. I know the mills preferred steel-floored cars for certain types of load, like hot-rolled semi-finished strip (a.k.a. "coil") or hot bars or such (you remember all those steel-floored gons with the paint burned almost completely off them?), and when they couldn't get them, used wood-floored gons instead with cinders sprinkled on the floor to keep the wood from frying. I once saw a wood-floored gon that had been caught on fire by a load. The floor was partly gone. I think I should model that now that I'm done with some of these others. This is the kind of stuff we need to make sure we are putting into our models to make them convincing. Various mills had needs and by-products that we don't usually think about. I don't know if J&L was producing coke out of that site at that time (I know Aliquippa did), but they did make ammonium sulphate out of the coke by-products process. That was used as a soil additive/fertilizer (going to CB&Q territory might figure in here.....), and was shipped as a bagged white powder, in boxcars. The mills also got lots of stuff in that came in boxes. The list was endless. Things they also might have gotten which are not evident were filled gons and flats with new/reconditioned mill rolls on them, and tank cars filled with acid used in the pickling process. Coke by-products plants had endless strings of tanks leaving, filled with stuff like toluene, xylol, creosote, coal tar, light oils, and etc. Those racks are a mystery to me. They didn't normally go into interchange, but there they are in this yard. I wonder if this yard was partly owned by J&L and thus they got to put their own non-interchange stuff in there. The slabs in gons on top of dunnage bring that into question, though. Hmmmm. You are right, those partial loads (another thing we rarely model) could be stone additive or ore. Coke is light and would normally top off the car before reaching capacity. But who knows? But, what a couple pics! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 12:49 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ID those CARS! On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 01:23 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: Hi all; I just relocated (I'd seen them before and Mark helped me figure out where!) a couple great John Vachon photos from just before WW2 at the American Memory site: lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html Search for : "Vachon" "Railroad Cars" "Jones Laughlin" These cars are sitting in the yard south of, I think, the Brady Street Bridge in Pittsburgh. You are looking, I think, at the north end of the J&L mill on the South Side. The cars are a mix from J&L and other folks along the Monongahela River. I suspect the yard is P&LE. There is a PRR gon at lower right with a load of billets? For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR gon? GS? Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far right)? Looks like it might be Is that a PMcK & Y or P&LE gon on its left? What kind of slab racks are those? The gon looks like the LLP2K 53' gon. The next row left looks like two very shallow gons coupled to that X29. The next row left appears to be a flat car with racks that have points sticking up outside the slabs. The racks look like wood. The gon just beyond it has a NICE looking ding in the side. What about that container car that sits above (further away than) the X29-looking box at center left? Is that an X29, or something else with plate ends? What are the other cars? What do the loads appear to be? Don't miss the hoppers on the left either. At least one appears to have a box section end sill like a GL? class and is that a GLC in the upper left? The hoppers appear to have 1/2 loads which might be either coke, metallurgic coal or ore. A lot of the gon loads look like billets of steel or sheet steel. The empty gons aren't "empty" either. Looks like dirt/dust/coal in the bottoms with some dunnage. Some of the gons in the distance appear to have scrap loads. And as noted, boxcars mixed in (so steel mill traffic should include house cars!!!) For those of us that love open cars (and closed ones for that matter), what do you figure all those loads to be made up of, specifically? How big are those slabs? Do you see the writing on the ends of the slabs? Is that COOL, or what? For us folks that like to know what to do with individual cars, how to load them, and what mixes are appropriate in a place like this, are you jazzed? Oh YEAH! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39290.08E3AB30 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ben and = Bruce;

You guys are lucky.  I don't get many photos like = this to use directly (aren't you guys doing = ~'50?).

 

=

I do remember that stuff in the = bottoms of the gons, as the steel-making process was = pretty similar even in my time (I was there in the mid-60's thru 1980).  That stuff in those two gons in the center gives all the appearnce of that red/black combo of cinders and mill scale that either = accumulated from scrap/mill waste or was sometimes put in there to insulate certain = loads.  I know the mills preferred = steel-floored cars for certain types of load, like hot-rolled semi-finished strip = (a.k.a. "coil") or hot bars or such (you remember all those steel-floored gons with the paint burned almost completely off them?), and when they = couldn't get them, used wood-floored gons instead = with cinders sprinkled on the floor to keep the wood from frying.  I once saw a wood-floored = gon that had been caught on fire by a load.  The floor was partly = gone.  I think I should model that = now that I'm done with some of these others.

 

=

This is the kind of stuff we need = to make sure we are putting into our models to make them = convincing.

 

=

Various mills had needs and = by-products that we don't usually think about.  I don't know if J&L was producing coke out of that site at that time (I know Aliquippa= did), but they did make ammonium sulphate out of the coke by-products process.  That was used as a soil additive/fertilizer (going to CB&Q = territory might figure in here.....), and was shipped as a bagged white powder, = in boxcars.  The mills also = got lots of stuff in that came in boxes.  = The list was endless.  Things = they also might have gotten which are not evident were filled gons and flats with new/reconditioned mill rolls on them, and tank cars = filled with acid used in the pickling process.  Coke by-products plants had endless strings of tanks leaving, = filled with stuff like toluene, xylol, creosote, = coal tar, light oils, and etc.

 

=

Those racks are a mystery to = me.  They didn't normally go into interchange, but there they are in this yard.  I wonder if this yard was = partly owned by J&L and thus they got to put their own non-interchange stuff in there.   The slabs in gons on top of dunnage bring that into question, though.  Hmmmm.

 

=

You are right, those partial loads (another thing we rarely model) could be stone = additive or ore.  Coke is light and = would normally top off the car before reaching capacity.  But who = knows?

 

=

But, what a couple pics!

 

=

Elden

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, October = 14, 2003 12:49 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD
Cc: = prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID = those CARS!

 

On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 01:23 PM, = ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

 

Hi all;

I just relocated (I'd seen them before and = Mark helped me figure out where!) a couple great John Vachon photos from just = before WW2 at the American Memory site:

 

lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html =

Search for : "Vachon" = "Railroad Cars" "Jones Laughlin"

 

These cars are sitting in the yard south of, = I think, the Brady Street Bridge in Pittsburgh.  You are looking, I think, = at the north end of the J&L mill on the South Side.  The cars are a = mix from J&L and other folks along the Monongahela River.  I suspect = the yard is P&LE.  There is a PRR gon at lower right with a load of = billets?

 

For those with sharp eyes, what is the PRR = gon? 

 

GS?

 

Is that a NYC rebuild next to it (far = right)?

 

Looks like it might be =

 

  Is that a PMcK & Y or P&LE = gon on its left?  What kind of slab racks are those?

 

The gon looks like the LLP2K 53' gon. The = next row left looks like two very shallow gons coupled to that X29. The next row = left appears to be a flat car with racks that have points sticking up = outside the slabs. The racks look like wood. The gon just beyond it has a NICE = looking ding in the side.

 

  What about that container car that = sits above (further away than) the X29-looking box at center left?  Is that = an X29, or something else with plate ends?  What are the other cars?  = What do the loads appear to be?

 

Don't miss the hoppers on the left either. = At least one appears to have a box section end sill like a GL? class and is that = a GLC in the upper left? The hoppers appear to have 1/2 loads which might be = either coke, metallurgic coal or ore.

 

A lot of the gon loads look like billets of = steel or sheet steel. The empty gons aren't "empty" either. Looks like dirt/dust/coal in the bottoms with some dunnage. Some of the gons in = the distance appear to have scrap loads. And as noted, boxcars mixed in (so = steel mill traffic should include house cars!!!) =

 

For those of us that love open cars (and = closed ones for that matter), what do you figure all those loads to be made up of, specifically?  How big are those slabs?  Do you see the = writing on the ends of the slabs?  Is that COOL, or what? =

 

For us folks that like to know what to do = with individual cars, how to load them, and what mixes are appropriate in a = place like this, are you jazzed?

 

Oh YEAH!

 

Happy Rails

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =

Scott-Ritchey Research Center =

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) =

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ =

 

"Beer is proof that God loves us and = wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

__

/ \

__<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________

|- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ = __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 

|/_____________________________\|_|_________= ___________________________|

| O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39290.08E3AB30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:36:48 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] York train meet Jerry Britton wrote: > > Is the York Meet worth attending? > > I assume since the "T" in "TCA" stands for "toy" that I shouldn't take > it all that seriously...and I bet there's not a lot of N scale. > > Opinions? > > I normally only do Timonium in January, which is their biggest show of > the year since it's in the midst of the prime model railroading > season...winter! Jerry, York is 99.99% O Gauge and O Scale. There might be scenicing materials there that other gauge RR buffs might like in addition RR books, pictures, etc. But mainly Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] York train meet Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:16:18 -0700 On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:34:29 -0400 (EDT) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > Not sure why many people still think bigger is > better. Some people > have the same idea for Broadway Ltd in HO. They want Q2's > S1's etc. Give > me an H9, H10 anyday of the week. Yep, an H9 in G scale, > hmmmm! > Gary, give me an good H9s in HO! But I suspect the problem is that the cost of doing any steam model is about the same, so bigger most likely means more profit. And people tend to buy bigger models, whether or not they need them. As for me, I would love to see BLI do an H9s and I1s/a in HO...now there are a couple of needed locomotives...what a concept! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modeling questions Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:19:09 -0700 Gee, Ben... Flying first class is cheaper than flying your own jet. And I'm somewhat in the same situation being a member of the Napa Valley club and living in deepest, darkest Arizona (about 1000 miles from 3rd and Townsend...as the Ex-SP runs. I get up there every couple of years... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:06:34 +0000 b.hom@att.net wrote: > Andrew Miller wrote: > I am curious. Those two clubs are 3000 miles apart! Do > you get reasonable > mileage on your personal jet? ;-) > > The San Leandro cars are backlogged projects from when I > lived out in > California before the Silicon Valley bust forced me to > move back east. > Priority mail is a heck of a lot cheaper than the > personal jet. ;-) > > As for RPI, I try to get up there once a quarter - it's > about a 6 1/2 hour > drive up from DC. I've been a member there since > starting undergrad in 1985. > > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:21:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] York meet If the "York meet" that's being referrred to is the TCA event, then I think you should know that it's not your typical train show. The "T" stands for "train" and "C" stands for "collector". It is entirely geared to train collectors as opposed to modelers and mostly (but not all) larger scales and tinplate. You'll find little or no memorabilia other than that directly related to toy trains. Attendence is limited to members of TCA and guests who may attend only ONCE as a guest in their entire lifetime. They take over the ENTIRE fairgrounds including the meat cases. It is worth seeing once even if you're not into collecting. $5000 locomotives are as common there as $250 locos are at shows like Timonium and I guarantee you'll leave without coming close to seeing it all. So, if you know a member who'll sponser you as a guest, I highly recommend it. Joe __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:40:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Renovo Excursion Pics From: Jerry @ Pennsy I've posted my pics from the Renovo excursion this past weekend. Nothing stellar. I was ON the train so I wasn't taking pics of it!!! There are two pics of the coaling wharf, though, and a few E8 shots at Renovo. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ Search on Keyword = Foliage Set Sort By to Oldest First for better presentation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:08:52 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] York meet Joseph Andrews wrote: > > If the "York meet" that's being referrred to is the > TCA event, then I think you should know that it's not > your typical train show. The "T" stands for "train" > and "C" stands for "collector". It is entirely geared > to train collectors as opposed to modelers and mostly > (but not all) larger scales and tinplate. You'll find > little or no memorabilia other than that directly > related to toy trains. Attendence is limited to > members of TCA and guests who may attend only ONCE as > a guest in their entire lifetime. They take over the > ENTIRE fairgrounds including the meat cases. It is > worth seeing once even if you're not into collecting. > $5000 locomotives are as common there as $250 locos > are at shows like Timonium and I guarantee you'll > leave without coming close to seeing it all. So, if > you know a member who'll sponser you as a guest, I > highly recommend it. > Joe All, Couple of heads-ups. 1. The new Orange Hall (don't know if the orange matches Lionel's) is now open; it's the size of 4 football fields and is air conditioned. The old meat locker halls (yellow and gold) will no longer be used along with a couple of others. Who knows, if the economy grows, they might have to re-open those halls. 2. I've found several good dealers there who do not deal in O Gauge exclusively. Certain gentleman by the name of Alvin Staufer comes to the show and shows books that he's written on... (hmm, now let's see, what's the name of that railroad? Starts with a 'D'? No no no, starts with a...) that's right, the Pennsylvania Railroad! :) 3. And as Joe says, if you haven't been there and can get to see it, by all means do so. I went when I was still into HO and was smitten once again with the ozone smell from my childhhod. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Renovo Excursion Pics Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:06:25 -0400 Thank you, those who ride the trains make it all happen.........No riders.....No trains.....No photos! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 7:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Renovo Excursion Pics > I've posted my pics from the Renovo excursion this past weekend. > Nothing stellar. I was ON the train so I wasn't taking pics of it!!! > > There are two pics of the coaling wharf, though, and a few E8 shots at > Renovo. > > See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ > > Search on Keyword = Foliage > > Set Sort By to Oldest First for better presentation. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:15:38 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] One MORE PRR modelers opinion.... John wrties... > Fellas, > In my humble opinion Bowser does a great job of producing a middle-of-the-road product that satifies the needs of some as is, while improvements may be made by those who wish to do so at a reasonable price. > John Liebeskind John, I value your opinion of the current Bowser offerings and I agree their current pricing is reflective of what you get for what you spend. What we are talking about is a new venture for Bowser... The Built Up scale model priced at 30 bucks... Now my expectations are high than what was posted... If they sell them at this level you can bet the other manufacturues are going to raise the bar... the gold bar and we will be paying much higher prices in the future. Have any of you seen the new Kadee PS-2 Twin bay covered hopper...? 40 bucks, but have you looked at what you get for 40 bucks? One beautiful pre-assemble accurately scaled piece of rolling stock. Not like brass, better, the brass guys will never bother to compete on this level, to many variables with brass... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Modeling Mediocrity - not hardly! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:43:37 -0400 Ben, Greg and lists, I am not promoting Modeling Mediocrity. Who here has made brass masters of unavailable detail parts and had them cast in brass to create one of models? I have. Who here has spent 30+ hours detailing a BRASS car? I have many times. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/B&O_I12.jpg Furthermore, it has taken YEARS and THOUSANDS of dollars to bring my S Scale brass project http://www.pennsysmodels.com to completion because I have NOT settled for mediocrity. My car has completely sprung 2D-F19 trucks and draft gear just to name a few. I am about to get pilot model # 3 because I have not settled for one thing less then I envisioned EIGHT years ago! A lot of you are still missing my point. I am not in direct defense of Browser. I am pointing out have fast the Internet modeling railroading world is so quick to trash and thrash. 99.99% of those who replied that they have only X of Bowser cars also have NOT tried to produce anything themselves, which could lead me to a whole different rant. It is cheaper and easier to shoot negative emails then put your time, heart, soul, and most importantly dollars into a project and hope it sells. Now to answer Ben's question. It is true that there are PRR sources available. But those who have tried to research and make something know of the expenses, limitations, and time involved in getting what is hopefully the data needed. Correct paint schemes SHOULD be an easy thing. But have you ever done artwork for decals etc? It is the black hole of time consumption. In Bowser's case, research time is probably the limiting factor here. I know a little about a little of Bowser from a friend who was producing S Scale cars, and getting some parts made at Bowser. Al least back then, they ran a lean company, with few having many responsibilities. You have to weigh how you spend your time to realize the best return. It IS a business. Obviously Lee English has a different "good enough" level then some of you. Whether you admit it or not, most of you on the STMFC list are not in the majority. You are much more knowledgeable then the norm about the subject. Should Bowser (or anyone else) spend significantly more funds and time to please .005% of their market? As for my modeling, I try to start and finish a train with brass. Whatever is in between is what my time and budget have allowed over the years. I have recently found that my "good enough" level for my personal modeling is so high that I am not completing more then a few pieces per year. I am still trying to fix that. I welcome your comments to the above. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:08:48 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Casting stones at the Bowser N8???? Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes: > Third, it is sad to see that the hobby has digressed to pop shots in an anonymous (Yahoo) format at someone's efforts, instead of sitting back, remembering that this is a hobby and being willing to improve what is available and take pride and joy in that. And for those that will fire back the response of, "well, if I pay $X for it, I expect Y" maybe you should take up another hobby? Why I do not restore automobiles anymore....a money looser if there ever was one. Garrett and all, I do sign my post... and I take flak sometimes for what I write and what I say. I don't poke at guys for modeling "their way" and I do have a level of expectation for what I spend and try to look out for those in the hobby that do the same. Let me ask all of you... Would you spend 30 bucks for the old Red Ball R50b or would you rather have the Walthers R50b? Far be it for me to tell you how to spend your time and money, but I think we have come a long way forward working with manufacturers who are willing to put forth the effort and pay them for it. Would you rather have the recently released Cannon Ball Shops PS Troop Sleeper and Kitchen Car at 30 bucks or something better? I would choose something better and as a matter of fact when a couple of us found out that they were going to incorporate the PS underframe on the ACF car we YELPED and they stopped to do it right. Thank GOD! We will have it correct. I have to ask myself, "why bother..." most don't care anyway! I care... others care. My father was always in management and always ask of his employees, "How come we can never find the time to do it right, but we can always find to do it over again...?" Is that what this hobby comes down to, finding the time to do it over again? He would also remind me of this little tongue twister..."Good, Better, Best...never let it rest until your Good is Better and your Better is Best!" I ask that you trust what Mike sent to me in his post as being objective... Know that he cares as well. When I talked to him last evening on the phone, he said the reality was that the curved grab irons were likely closer to .035" and that is 3 time as thick as they should be... I model to my standards and I do so at varying degrees of "good enough" and I realize you can't make Chicken soup from Chicken Pooh. I have never criticized others modeling, I just keep those comments to myself. But when someone needs commended I will let others know. But when your as public as I am, I do take the flack... regardless! Do I need to look out for others? Well, no. I do enjoy working with manufacturers that give a S**T! I realize I don't need a fleet of 400 cars just because, I may never finish all the kits I do have at present, but I am much more careful where I spend my hobby dollars now. I don't need every resin kit or diesel that hits the market just because it's new. I am not impressed when a manufacturer sends me an email and says, "get'un while there hot and here's the deadline..." I will continue to keep my ear to the rail and pass information off to those in the hobby as new items hit the market. I am just not sure why after this thread... SIGNED GREG MARTIN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:41:37 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Mediocrity - not hardly! Bill, Excuse me if you read my post to say that your personal modeling represented mediocrity... it was not intended that way. I have seen your modeling and I commend you on your standards, I just believe that producers should do as good a job as possible for the market they are selling into. Shake the box kits have their value, as does the highly detailed kits 9at about 30 bucks), we the minority, have promoted and the masses have enjoyed as a result. However, I did read your post to say that you accepted Bowser's tooling mediocrity... I have worked with manufacturers in making sure that they get their project correct, and when I couldn't do it by myself I have ask help from others. They are often behind the scenes and get little or no credit for their efforts, but I don't believe that is why they do it... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:41:37 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Mediocrity - not hardly! Bill, Excuse me if you read my post to say that your personal modeling represented mediocrity... it was not intended that way. I have seen your modeling and I commend you on your standards, I just believe that producers should do as good a job as possible for the market they are selling into. Shake the box kits have their value, as does the highly detailed kits 9at about 30 bucks), we the minority, have promoted and the masses have enjoyed as a result. However, I did read your post to say that you accepted Bowser's tooling mediocrity... I have worked with manufacturers in making sure that they get their project correct, and when I couldn't do it by myself I have ask help from others. They are often behind the scenes and get little or no credit for their efforts, but I don't believe that is why they do it... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:57:30 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [STMFC] Casting stones at the Bowser Randy and Dayna... Thanks guys for the support! There is nothing like getting kicked around by the guys you are dedicated to help!!! Ask Dayna, she know EXACTLY what I am talking about. I often wonder if this is at all worth the effort? Guess it is like shooting the messenger... We could always go back to Green with chrome yellow stripes that come together in one broad band on the nose... 3^) Miss you guys both and see you both in Cocoa Beach! Keep warm over there til then! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Keystone #24/4, winter '91 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 00:28:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C392B3.463FE660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; On page 39, top half of page, there is a photo (from the collection of = Chuck Blardone) taken in 1944 of the Broadway Limited (somewhere in the = flatlands as it looks) being pulled by a K4s totally streamlined, = including tender. I thought that all the streamlineing of the 4 K4s were removed prior to = the 1940's.....???? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C392B3.463FE660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 On page 39, top half of page, = there is a=20 photo (from the collection of Chuck Blardone) taken in 1944 of the = Broadway=20 Limited (somewhere in the flatlands as it looks) being pulled by a K4s = totally=20 streamlined, including tender.
 I thought that all the = streamlineing of the 4=20 K4s were removed prior to the 1940's.....????
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C392B3.463FE660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] plastic safety appliances Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:42:31 -0500 Harry Fitch wrote: > >>> Model Railroading is Fun! <<< > > I have brass, I have junk, I have Armstrong, Odegard & Frary and I have > Larry, Moe & Curly; but I still have fun with or without my genuine > imitation almost real plastic safety appliances on my HO scale rolling > stock. None of my HO people have ever suffered a lost time accident due to > one of these integral plastic safety appliances nor have they reported one > from the wood house car I cobbled together 30 years ago and forgot to > install steps on it. Not so much as one grievance from the Brotherhoods! > Really! The Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen local on the Susquehanna Division pitched a fit until I relaced the plastic ledges with real grabirons.....seems they kept breaking their fingers trying to grab on to a roll by. They insisted even the Athearn and MDC cars get real grabs. Then they really got tired of trying to open couplers without cutbars! What was odd was that the engineers' and firemen's unions didn't object when I cut their legs off! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone #24/4, winter '91 Earl, You got it wrong. In 1936 the first of the Streamlined K4's #3768 got the Full Shrouding. It toured the system breifly before going into service. Slowy the shoud was removed bit by bit so the vital parts could be serviced more easily. Most likely in the mid-late 1940's was this K4 returned to normal appearence. In 1940, in a second attempt at the Streamlined game, the PRR again chose 4 K4s's to receive a Streamlined Shroud. #3678, 2665, 1120 and 5338. This shroud was a bit different than the 1936 attemp and it allowed easier access to parts that needed daily attention. Over the years these shrouds also were modified. It is suggested that one of these K4s's, #5338 I believe, stll retained part of its shroud when scraped in the 1950's. So the Photo you refer to in the Keystone is correctly ID'd. I havn't looked but I am assuming it is one of the 1940 Streamliners but it could also be of 3768 as it held most of its shroud well into the mid 1940's.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:28:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone #24/4, winter '91 From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 01:04 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Over the years these shrouds also were modified. It is > suggested that one of these K4s's, #5338 I believe, stll retained part > of its shroud when scraped in the 1950's. I looked this up about two weeks ago and, without pulling the books out, my recollection is that this unit maintained its shrouding all the way to 1956!!! I always wanted one streamlined K4 and thought I would have to use modeler's license on my 1954 layout. When Key Imports announced 10 new versions of the K4 in N scale, I had my choice of four streamlined units. As luck would have it, I can have one that really existed in 1954! By the way, as of 1954, this unit was assigned to the Atlantic Division. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:20:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ID those CARS! From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-6--130014465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 03:16 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > I do remember that stuff in the bottoms of the gons, as the =20 > steel-making process was pretty similar even in my time (I was there =20= > in the mid-60's thru 1980).=A0That stuff in those two gons in the = center =20 > gives all the appearnce of that red/black combo of cinders and mill =20= > scale that either accumulated from scrap/mill waste or was sometimes =20= > put in there to insulate certain loads.=A0I know the mills preferred =20= > steel-floored cars for certain types of load, like hot-rolled =20 > semi-finished strip (a.k.a. "coil") or hot bars or such (you remember =20= > all those steel-floored gons with the paint burned almost completely =20= > off them?), and when they couldn't get them, used wood-floored gons =20= > instead with cinders sprinkled on the floor to keep the wood from =20 > frying.=A0I once saw a wood-floored gon that had been caught on fire = by =20 > a load.=A0The floor was partly gone.=A0I think I should model that now = =20 > that I'm done with some of these others. I'm thinking about something similar for my Sunshine F30A (that it =20 looks like I'll be building as part of PRR Projects group, =20 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/). Since that kit has all the =20 nice cast structural details, I may take the deck (resin) and remove =20 the cast wood, replace it with real wood decking, and then hack out a =20= section of the deck to reveal the frames below. Perhaps I will use the =20= car as an "idler" for a girder load in a gon...with the gouged deck =20 right under one end of the girder. "DO NOT HUMP" signs and a chalked =20= addition "AGAIN!" under the sign would make a little vignette Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-6--130014465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 03:16 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: = Arial0000,0000,8080I do remember that stuff in the bottoms of the gons, as the steel-making process was pretty similar even in my time (I was there in the mid-60's thru 1980).=A0That stuff in those two gons in the center gives all the appearnce of that red/black combo of cinders and mill scale that either accumulated from scrap/mill waste or was sometimes put in there to insulate certain loads.=A0I know the mills preferred steel-floored cars for certain types of load, like hot-rolled semi-finished strip (a.k.a. "coil") or hot bars or such (you remember all those steel-floored gons with the paint burned almost completely off them?), and when they couldn't get them, used wood-floored gons instead with cinders sprinkled on the floor to keep the wood from frying.=A0I once saw a wood-floored gon that had been caught on fire by a load.=A0The floor was partly gone.=A0I think I should model that now that I'm done with some of these others. I'm thinking about something similar for my Sunshine F30A (that it looks like I'll be building as part of PRR Projects group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/). Since that kit has all the nice cast structural details, I may take the deck (resin) and remove the cast wood, replace it with real wood decking, and then hack out a section of the deck to reveal the frames below. Perhaps I will use the car as an "idler" for a girder load in a gon...with the gouged deck right under one end of the girder. "DO NOT HUMP" signs and a chalked addition "AGAIN!" under the sign would make a little vignette < Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-6--130014465-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter meeting Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:44:18 +0000 The Chicago chapter will be meeting this Saturday if anyone will be in our area. We will be having Jack Tomizek a retired PRR signal maintanier tell us of his career and work. Jack has a sense of humor and told us at our last meeting that when he married his wife didn't want him out at night so he transferred to the signal department from being a towerman. Little did he know he would be out day and night! Pleas e mail me if you need further information. We also have several people who are very knowledgable of teh area around Colehour yard and can arrange a guide for you in all probabolity if you will be in the area at any time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] No complaints from the firemen Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:02:19 -0400 Really! The Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen local on the Susquehanna Division pitched a fit until I replaced the plastic ledges with real grabirons.....seems they kept breaking their fingers trying to grab on to a roll by. They insisted even the Athearn and MDC cars get real grabs. Then they really got tired of trying to open couplers without cutbars! What was odd was that the engineers' and firemen's unions didn't object when I cut their legs off! Steve, you have a point! I still have had no complaints from the firemen for having to jump those tremendous gaps between tender decks and engine footplates let alone the danger of not being able to see the boiler sight glass at night without proper safety illumination. They also have to have the arm reach of a gorilla to grab the irons as they ascend to the deck from the ground due to the monstrous gap between loco and tender. Plastic scale people are very resilient! I have had to make sure that none of the crew has any ferrous material on them when assigned to a locomotive without a backhead. They really hate getting stuck to a PM Motor. Right now I am planning a grab iron equipped, gondola load of pig iron, all pig iron, rusty pig iron...... that is in the shape of..... pigs..... ----> Send all hate mail to BR-549 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:14:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Baggage vs Baggage Express Hello, I have seen listings in the PRR talk archives of PRR Baggage cars as Baggage, Baggage Express, and Express Messenger. I understand that Express Messenger meant that the car was equipped with a a small office for the Express Messenger Clerk to ride along and ensure packages were offloaded at the correct stations, and that the cars were lettered as such, with the gold star. What is the difference between Baggage and Baggage Express?? Fred Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:12:19 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PS-2 roster and quality check TWlrZSBCcm9jayB3cml0ZXMuLi4KPiBJIG5vdGUgdGhhdCAgc29tZSBjYXJzIGJ1aWx0IGlu IDE5NTQsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBBVFNGIFsgR0EtODggXSwgTWlsdywgTkFIWCwgYW5kIFBSUiAg SDM0IHsgcGxlYXNlIG5vdGUuLi5ubyAiLSIgfSBjYXJzLCBjYW1lIHdpdGggd2hhdCBFZCBj YWxsZWQgIm5hcnJvdyBoYXRjaCBzcGFjaW5nIi4gSW4gdGhlc2UgY2FycywgdGhlIGhhdGNo ZXMgbmVhcmVzdCB0aGUgZW5kcyBhcmUgbG9jYXRlZCBvdmVyIG9yIG5lYXIgdGhlIGZpcnN0 IHNpbmdsZSByaWIgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgZG91YmxlIHJpYiBhbmQgdGhl IGVuZC4uLndoaWNoIGlzIHRoZSBtb3N0IGNvbW1vbiBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uLjwKCk1pa2Us IAoKSSBkaWRuJ3QgbWVudGlvbiBLYWRlZSdzIG5ldyBvZmZlcmluZyBvbiB0aGUgUFJSIGxp c3QgSSBiZWxvbmcgdG8gYW5kIHdhcyBob2xkaW5nIGJhY2sgb24gaXQncyBhbm5vdW5jZW1l bnQgaW4gdGhlIG5leHQgc2NoZWR1bGVkIFRNSyBhcyB0aGUgb2ZmZXJpbmcgbmVlZHMgYSBs aXR0bGUgY2xvc2VyIGV4YW1pbmF0aW9uIGZvciB0aGUgUFJSIGNhcnMuIEkgZGlkIGFuIGV4 dGVuc2l2ZSBhcnRpY2xlIGluIE1haW5saW5lIE1vZGVsZXIgb24gdGhlIGNvbXBsZXRlIHNl cmllcyBvZiBQUlIgSDM0J3MgYW5kIHN1YmNsYXNzZXMsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBkcmF3aW5ncyBv ZiB0aCBjaGFuZ2VzLiBJIGhhdmUgYSBjb3B5IG9mIGRyYXdpbmdzIChwcm94LiAyNCJ4IDM2 Iikgb2YgdGhlIGxhc3Qgc2VyaWVzIG9mIGNhcnMgcHJvZHVjZWQgYnkgUHVsbG1hbiBTdGFu ZGFyZHMgdG8gJ0NhciBtZW4iIG9mIHRoZSB2YXJpb3VzIFJSJ3MuIEJ1dCBhcyBLYWRlZSBo YXMgb25seSBvZmZlcmVkIHRoZSBDbGluY2hmaWVsZCBjYXIgSSB3aWxsIHdhaXQgdG8gc2Vl IHdoYXQgdGhlIGRvIGZvciB0aGUgUFJSIGNhcnMuIFBSUidzIGNhcnMgd2VyZSBub3Qgb25s eSBidWlsdCBmcm9tIGtpdHMgKGZyb20gd2hhdCBEci5QZW5uc3kvUmljaCBCdXJnKWhhcyB0 YXVnaHQgdXMsIGJ1dCBzb21lIHdlcmUgYnVpbHQgYW5kIGRlbGl2ZXJlZCBmcm9tIFBTLiBU aGVyZSBhcmUgZm91ciBkaXN0aW5jdGl2ZWx5ICgqYWN0dWFsbHkgZml2ZSkgZGlmZmVyZW50 IGNhcnMgaW4gdGhlIFBSUiBmbGVldC4gVGhlIHZlcnkgZWFybGllc3QgY2FycyB3ZXJlIGFz IHlvdSBtZW50aW9uZWQgZGVsaXZlcmVkIHdpdGggYXMgeW91IGhhdmUgbWVudGlvbmVkLCAi bmFycm93IGhhdGNoIHNwYWNpbmciIGFuZCB0aGUgbGF0ZXIgd2VyZSB0aGUgcmV2aXNlZCBo YXRjaCBzcGFjaW5nIHJhaXNpbmcgdGhlIGN1YmljIGZvb3RhZ2Ugb2YgdGhlIGNhci4gU29t ZSBkZWxpdmVyZWQgd2l0aCBjaGFubmVsIHN1cHBvcnRzIGF0IHRoZSBib2xzdGVycyBhbmQg bGF0ZXIgd2l0aCB0aGUgcm91bmQgZWRnZWQgZmxhbmdlZCBjaGFubmVsLi4uIFJFRkMgKGFz IGtub3duIGluIHRoZSBzdGVlbCBpbmR1c3RyeSkgb3Igd2hhdCBLYWRlZSBjYWxscyB0aGUg ImhhdCIgc3VwcG9ydHMgYXQgdGhlIGJvbHN0ZXIuIEludGVyZXN0aW5nbHkgZW5vdWdoIGlm IEthZGVlIGVsZWN0cyB0byBkbyBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSBsYXN0IG9mIHRoZSBQUlIgY2FyIHRo ZXkgd2lsbCBuZWVkIHRvIGNyZWF0ZSBhIG5ldyB0cnVjayBhcyBtYW55IHdlcmUgYnVpbHQg d2l0aCBQUlIgIkNyb3duIFRydWNrcyIuIEkgYW0gbG9va2luZyBmb3J3YXJkIHRvIHRoZXNl IGNhcnMgYXMgdGhlIEFUTEFTIGNhciB3YXMgcXVpdGUgdGhlIHByb2plY3QgdG8gcHJvcGVy bHkgcmVwcmVzZW50IGFueSBvZiB0aGUgUFJSIEgzNCBjbGFzc2VzLiBJZiBvdXIgYm9zcywg ZWRpdG9yIGFuZCBQcmVzaWRlbnQgKEFsIEJ1Y2hhbikgb2YgdGhlIFBSUlQmSFMnIG5ldyBv bmxpbmUgbWFnYXppbmUgVEhFIEtFWVNUT05FIE1PREVMRVIgd2lsbCBhbGxvdyBJIHdpbGwg cmVwcm9kdWNlIHRoZSBhcnRpY2xlIGluIGEgbGVzcyBleHRlbnNpdmUgZm9ybWF0Li4uCgpO b3cgbGV0J3MgZ2V0IHRoZSBhdHRlbmRhbmNlIHVwIGF0IENPQ09BIEJFQUNIIHNvIHdlIGNh biBwdXQgYWxsIHRoZSBuYW1lcyB3aXRoIGFsbCB0aGUgZmFjZXMgdGhpcyB5ZWFyLiBUaGUg ZXZlbnQgcHJvbWlzZXMgdG8gYmUgYSBncm91bmQgYnJlYWtlciBpbiBhdHRlbmRhbmNlIHRo aXMgeWVhcnMsIHNvIGxpbmUgdXAsIGdldCB5b3VyIHRpY2tldCBhbmQgc2hvdyB1cCBhbmQg aGF2ZSBzb21lIGZ1biEgLS1UaGlzIHdhcyBwbHVnIGZvciB3aGljaCBJIGFtIHNvbGVseSBy ZXNwb25zaWJsZSEgM14pIAoKR3JlZyBNYXJ0aW4gICAK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] GS scrap cars and G22c scrap cars Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:40:49 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39364.FFDECCB0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; I was wondering if anyone out there might have any more info than that available in the ORERs on either of the GS scrap cars or G22c scrap cars. A lead to a photo would be dynamite. I suspect they were essentially the same as the G31d and G32a pictured in the photo by Paul Winters in Color Guide 2, as they are dimensionally almost identical, and had the same designated purpose, but I would like more supporting data before I launch into speculative territory. I don't know about you, but these are ultra-cool cars! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39364.FFDECCB0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GS scrap cars and G22c scrap cars

Hi all;
I was wondering if anyone out there might have any = more info than that available in the ORERs on either of the GS scrap = cars or G22c scrap cars.  A lead to a photo would be = dynamite.

I suspect they were essentially the same as the G31d = and G32a pictured in the photo by Paul Winters in Color Guide 2, as = they are dimensionally almost identical, and had the same designated = purpose, but I would like more supporting data before I launch into = speculative territory.

I don't know about you, but these are ultra-cool = cars!

Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39364.FFDECCB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Bachman H16-44 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:47:02 -0400 Greg and Dick, Thanks for the quick response. Guess I'll wait till Atlas releases their model and relegate this to the "someday" bin. (I will need to interchange with the P&WV so here is a candidate for foreign motive power.) Walt Prusick BTW I have two of those early Bowser beauties awaiting the second coming. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:50:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing --part1_14.1a934e0f.2cbf1b3b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, The cutover of "C" will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of "C" to "SO". That should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three tracks after all these years. Will take over a week to do the whole piece from "SO" to "CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting radio conversations. Get your pictures while you can. May be a bit cold on sunday but worth it. Pat McKinney --part1_14.1a934e0f.2cbf1b3b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List,
        The cutover of "C" will begin Sun= ,10-19. New signals east of "C" to "SO". That should be getting new rule 261= signaling on all three tracks after all these years. Will take over a week=20= to do the whole piece from "SO" to "CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting=20= radio conversations. Get your pictures while you can. May be a bit cold on s= unday but worth it.

Pat McKinney --part1_14.1a934e0f.2cbf1b3b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] ID those cars (almost) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:19:46 -0400 Eldon and others, Lets not forget those covered hoppers. I loaded quite a few with ammonium sulphate, but it wasn't bagged and it didn't travel by boxcar. Rather it was shipped by covered hopper, at least at J&L in Aliquippa. One of more pleasant jobs was to load those hoppers (after first inspecting the interiors, and tagging the outlets). All one had to do was yell up the chute to the operator and he would deliver x number of scoops. This was in the mid to late 70's. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charles Chandler" Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi Conversion - P85cR Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:40:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C3934B.C7B27EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This might have been covered before,but has anyone come up with an easy = PRR conversion for the AHM?Rivarossi smooth sided coach? I have some and = thought they might be easy to convert to a P85cr. Anyone done this? = Also, how many P85cr's did the Pennsy have and where did they run? = Thanks, C. Chandler ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C3934B.C7B27EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This might have been covered before,but = has anyone=20 come up with an easy PRR conversion for the AHM?Rivarossi smooth sided = coach? I=20 have some and thought they might be easy to convert to a P85cr. Anyone = done=20 this? Also, how many P85cr's did the Pennsy have and where did they run? = Thanks,=20 C. Chandler
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C3934B.C7B27EE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kentucky coal via Cincinnati to Chicago.. history and Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:54:07 +0000 Rick wrote: >Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to >Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went >Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via >two possible routings)-Schererville IN, >and was interchanged. Two routings because the direct route >from Newman >(Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I >believe it was >a manual block railroad. >From what I know, Rick is correct in that the Gary US Steel trains went at least two routes between Cincinnati and Logansport. The Richmond Branch was single track with MBS between Newman and Anoka. With the passenger trains bewteen Chicago and Cincinnati and and a local out and about, during the day, the Richmond Branch was considered congested due to a lack of capacity. Typically, the Gary train would run Newman-Anoka if there was no other traffic around. One known routing for the Gary US Steel train was Richmond-Ridgeville-Logansport. I have heard, but have never been able to find any proof, that those trains on occasion ran the Main Line from Richmond to Indianapolis then went up the I&F Branch to Logansport. This seems unlikely since 1) it would require four crews instead of three to get the train from Cincinnati to Gary and 2) as we all know, the Indy terminal could get really congested. Why would they want to throw a coal train into the Indy mix unless they did it on a Sunday or Monday night when activity was likely to be a bit slower in terms of yard and local jobs out and working? Steve Hipes Columbus, Ohio > > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:32:38 EDT > > > From: RickTipton@aol.com > > > Subject: Hopper Interchange at Cincinnati > > > > > > In a message dated 9/23/03 5:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > I would assume some railroad handled the majority of the L&N's coal > > > > traffic out of Decoursy yard around the Cinncinatti area. I am >guessing > > > > the Pennsy? > > > > > > > > > > I'm assured by Cincinnati railfans that it was split. Yes, much > > continued > > > from DeCoursey, across the river on the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, >and > > to the > > > PRR at Undercliff Yard. Some of the Pennsy share went up the Richmond > > Branch > > > to Chicago. At one time a lot went up the Little Miami through Xenia >to > > > Columbus and then on the Sandusky Branch to the PRR pier(s) at > > Sandusky/Bay Shore > > > Yard. > > > > Much of the coal interchanged to the PRR bound for Chicago actually went >to > > US Steel in Gary, IN. The PRR took this coal to Schererville, IN via the > > "Panhandle" line where it was interchanged to the EJ&E, then a US Steel > > owned road, for the final portion of the journey to US Steel's Gary >Works > > plant on the shores of Lake Michigan. This routing continued through >Penn > > Central days and until the L&N took over the Monon. This traffic then > > shifted to an all L&N routing into Northern Indiana via the Monon from > > Lousiville getting interchanged directly to the EJ&E at Dyer, IN. This > > entitled the L&N to a much greater share of the revenue for the haul. > > > > Today, this traffic goes through Cincinnati and up the former B&O using >an > > all Chessie System routing up through and across Ohio and Indiana to >reach > > US Steel. The traffic is still interchanged to the EJ&E, but now at >Curtis > > Yard in Gary which sits directly south of the EJ&E's Kirk Yard. The J >now > > only handles this coal about three miles from Curtis Yard directly into >the > > plant. > > > > Tuch > > > > >Rick Tipton >Louisville KY >Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West _________________________________________________________________ Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers. https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] ID those cars (almost) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:24:46 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39373.8591E8C0 Content-Type: text/plain Walt; You are right! What a lapse! The way I understand it, much of the earlier generation of ammonium sulphate at USS Clairton went to bags (thorough mid-60's?), as USS sold it labeled as a soil additive under their own distinct brand-name. The gent I talked to did say they went later to some covered hoppers, as some consignees wanted to sell it themselves (he said Monsanto was one). And then later, the entire powder end of the business went away (1980's) in favor of liquids? I honestly don't know how much of this is accurate but have no reason to doubt it. Did J&L have their own label, or do you know who J&L's customers were for this stuff? It is a very interesting topic, and I'd sure like to know more about the by-products industry. Another one I forgot about, but do not know when it began, is the shipment of powdered additives for the steel-making process began using covered hoppers instead of boxcars. I mean, I used to hear stories about various minerals and stuff being shipped in standard boxcars with the stuff piled over the truck (remember Al's story about the CN boxcars?). I know PRR began using more covered hoppers after the war, particularly for cement, but what is the story with the change to covered hoppers for other stuff? Particularly in the steel-making industry? BTW, the URR book has a B&O wagon top covered hopper in additive service sometime in the early 60's, probably going to Duquesne or Clairton, check that photo out. It is being switched by an AS-616. Coool. Thanks! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Walter Prusick [mailto:cabincar01@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 3:20 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] ID those cars (almost) Eldon and others, Lets not forget those covered hoppers. I loaded quite a few with ammonium sulphate, but it wasn't bagged and it didn't travel by boxcar. Rather it was shipped by covered hopper, at least at J&L in Aliquippa. One of more pleasant jobs was to load those hoppers (after first inspecting the interiors, and tagging the outlets). All one had to do was yell up the chute to the operator and he would deliver x number of scoops. This was in the mid to late 70's. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39373.8591E8C0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] ID those cars (almost)

Walt;
You are right!  What a lapse!
The way I understand it, much of the earlier = generation of ammonium sulphate at USS Clairton went to bags (thorough = mid-60's?), as USS sold it labeled as a soil additive under their own = distinct brand-name.  The gent I talked to did say they went later = to some covered hoppers, as some consignees wanted to sell it = themselves (he said Monsanto was one).  And then later, the entire = powder end of the business went away (1980's) in favor of = liquids?  I honestly don't know how much of this is accurate but = have no reason to doubt it.

Did J&L have their own label, or do you know who = J&L's customers were for this stuff?  It is a very interesting = topic, and I'd sure like to know more about the by-products = industry.

Another one I forgot about, but do not know when it = began, is the shipment of powdered additives for the steel-making = process began using covered hoppers instead of boxcars.  I mean, I = used to hear stories about various minerals and stuff being shipped in = standard boxcars with the stuff piled over the truck (remember Al's = story about the CN boxcars?).  I know PRR began using more covered = hoppers after the war, particularly for cement, but what is the story = with the change to covered hoppers for other stuff?  Particularly = in the steel-making industry?  BTW, the URR book has a B&O = wagon top covered hopper in additive service sometime in the early = 60's, probably going to Duquesne or Clairton, check that photo = out.  It is being switched by an AS-616.  Coool.

Thanks!
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Prusick [mailto:cabincar01@earthlink.net= ]
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 3:20 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] ID those cars (almost)

Eldon and others,
Lets not forget those covered hoppers. I loaded = quite a few with ammonium
sulphate, but it wasn't bagged and it didn't travel = by boxcar. Rather it was
shipped by covered hopper, at least at J&L in = Aliquippa.

One of more pleasant jobs was to load those hoppers = (after first inspecting
the interiors, and tagging the outlets). All one had = to do was yell up the
chute to the operator and he would deliver x number = of scoops. This was in
the mid to late 70's.

Walt Prusick


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C39373.8591E8C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Another Bowser BooBoo List, OK, here is some more foder for those disgruntled with Bowser's modeling practices to consider. It has come to my attention that Bowser's new N Scale N5c Cabin has a pretty obvious error. Seems they put the stove pipe up thru the wong end of the Cupola. Now there is no excuse for that. Their HO version was done correctly. Plenty of prototype photos exsist to get info from. Just plain carelessness? Unless, Bowser happened across a prototype that was exactly oppisite of all others? Naaaa, can't be. Atleast it can be fixed with a bit of putty, a drill, paint and some glue.....Oh well.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:45:44 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman H16-44 Walt, Let me know when you are going to do your P&VW conversion as it is a bash to get it correct. You'll need an Athearn non-SP shell to do it correct as the P&WV unit didn't have the flat front. But if you can live with that it is just a repaint and you need to do something with those rear chicken wire. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:05:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Bowser BooBoo From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 07:34 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > OK, here is some more foder for those disgruntled with Bowser's > modeling practices to consider. It has come to my attention that > Bowser's new N Scale N5c Cabin has a pretty obvious error. Seems they > put the stove pipe up thru the wong end of the Cupola. Now there is no > excuse for that. Their HO version was done correctly. Plenty of > prototype photos exsist to get info from. Just plain carelessness? > Unless, Bowser happened across a prototype that was exactly oppisite of > all others? Naaaa, can't be. Atleast it can be fixed with a bit of > putty, a drill, paint and some glue.....Oh well.....Gary Gary: This was discussed extensively a few weeks after the release of the cars. Not only is the stove pipe at the wrong end of the cupola, but the roof of the cupola is about 3-4 scale inches too short. If you look at the amount of space between the tops of the cupola windows and the roof you will see that there is more sidewall on the prototype and the HO model. Why fuss over this measely little space? Because if you use either the Bowser or Gold Medal Models trainphone kits the stanchions for the roof top are not high enough to make up the difference and the trainphone pipe has to "dip" as it passes over the roof unless you kitbash to stanchions to make up the difference! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:10:00 +0000 SO to AJ or whatever it is called is already Rule 261 on all three tracks and will not be seeing any new cuttovers. Furthermore the section from SO to C was re-signaled by Conrail so the two intermediate signals there won't be seeing many changes except the possible appearance of a hooded serpent or two). Besides the elimination of C and the loss of the PRR signal bridge at C and the PRR mast signals at AJ (?) not much is really changing. In fact a number of pot signals should survive at C as well as the pneumatic switch machines at SO, C and AO. >From: PKMac101@aol.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing >Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:50:51 EDT > >List, > The cutover of "C" will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of "C" >to >"SO". That should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three tracks >after >all these years. Will take over a week to do the whole piece from "SO" to >"CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting radio conversations. Get your >pictures >while you can. May be a bit cold on sunday but worth it. > >Pat McKinney _________________________________________________________________ Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your current Internet access and enjoy patented spam control and more. Get two months FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/byoa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:15:54 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3149093754_1390522_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Pat: When will C no longer have an operator? Can you explain what rule 261 is? Thanks, Doug Nelson. ---------- From: PKMac101@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 2:50 PM List, The cutover of "C" will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of "C" to "SO". That should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three tracks after all these years. Will take over a week to do the whole piece from "SO" to "CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting radio conversations. Get your pictures while you can. May be a bit cold on sunday but worth it. Pat McKinney --MS_Mac_OE_3149093754_1390522_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Hi Pat:

When will C no longer have an operator?  Can you explain what rule 261= is?

Thanks,
Doug Nelson.

----------
From: PKMac101@aol.com
To: prr-talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing
Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 2:50 PM


List,
        The cutover of "C"= ; will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of "C" to "SO".= That should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three tracks after all= these years. Will take over a week to do the whole piece from "SO"= ; to "CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting radio conversations.= Get your pictures while you can. May be a bit cold on sunday but worth it.<= BR>
Pat McKinney
--MS_Mac_OE_3149093754_1390522_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:52:52 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] ID those cars (almost) --- ELDEN GATWOOD wrote [speaking of byproducts from coke and steel plants]: > It is a very interesting topic, and I'd sure like to > know more about the by-products industry. Do you have access to a copy of "The Making, Shaping and Treating of Steel" by (at various times) US Steel or the Carnegie Steel Co.? As I recall, there is a lengthy chapter on coke and the chemical byproducts of coke plants, at least in the pre-WW2 editions. Also some comments on slag as a saleable product. If you can get there, the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh has copies of several editions in their collection. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:43:51 +0000 Rule 261 reads On portions of the railroad and on designated tracks so specified on the time-table, trains will be governed by block signals whose indications will supersede the superiority of trains for both opposing and following movements on the same track. vs Rule 251 On portions of the railroad and on designated tracks so specified on the time-table, trains will run with reference to other trains in the same direction by block signals whose indications will supersede the superiority of trains. >From: "Douglas Nelson" >To: PKMac101@aol.com , prr-talk@dsop.com , PRR@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing >Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:15:54 -0700 > >Hi Pat: > >When will C no longer have an operator? Can you explain what rule 261 is? > >Thanks, >Doug Nelson. > >---------- >From: PKMac101@aol.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing >Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 2:50 PM > > >List, > The cutover of "C" will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of "C" >to >"SO". That should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three tracks >after all these years. Will take over a week to do the whole piece from >"SO" >to "CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting radio conversations. Get your >pictures while you can. May be a bit cold on sunday but worth it. > >Pat McKinney _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:02:34 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing From: "Douglas Nelson" Does anyone have information on the derailment at C Tower (Johnstown, PA) approximately 1997? Were the operators injured in that derailment? I recall hearing that the operator, well aware of the 1958 derailment that killed the operator and destroyed the brick tower, may have been injured jumping out the second story rear window (or door). Thanks for any information. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:23:35 -0400 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Conversion - P85cR According to my sources, the Pennsy had only one class P85CR coach - car #4045. If I'm not mistaken, I believe this individual car was rebuilt from a P85BR coach that was overhauled due to severe deterioration. In the overhaul, which was a test case, car 4045 was modified to have only one vestibule. The test was deemed a failure as the rebuild was too costly to justify on the remaining P85BR fleet. To convert a Rivarossi/AHM streamlined coach would require a fair amount of work. Here is a link to diagrams for the car side: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85c.gif&sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= To convert the Rivarossi/AHM coaches to the more common P85BR would be most easily accomplished by using a Brass Car Sides overlay. Chris Baker #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:34:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... From: Jerry Britton Okay, last month we covertly discussed reefers at great length under the subject of Stock Cars!!! Speaking of wood reefers in the 36-40' variety... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/query_forum/im_reefer.jpg At approximately what year did the WFE change from their original paint scheme to the one with the "large goat"? At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? When did cars first see sill-mounted Preco fans, what are they, and what did they do? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:54:32 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi Conversion - P85cR The P85Cr was not a rebuild of a P85Br. The P85Br always had only one vestibule. The rebuild you are thinking of converted the P85B to a corridor, high density seating coach by removing one large restroom. You are right in that there was only one P85C. If I remember correctly, it was a demonstrator from Pressed Steel Car Co. which the PRR eventually bought. To answer the original question, No. There is not much use I can think of for the AHM streamlined coach besides cut up pieces as gondola loads for a scrap yard. If you are willing and able to do the kitbashing your question implied, then consider building P70Ks or P70GSs from Laser Horizon sides. These were very common longer distance coaches on the PRR. There were about 50 P70Ks. They had 56 seats and were for overnight service. There were about 100 P70GSs. They had 68 seats and were for long distance day service. If you are looking for a quick easy source of long distance PRR coaches, and price is no object, the new RTR I/M-DesPlaines P85Bs can't be beat. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > According to my sources, the Pennsy had only one class P85CR coach - car #4045. If I'm not mistaken, I believe this individual car was rebuilt from a P85BR coach that was overhauled due to severe deterioration. In the overhaul, which was a test case, car 4045 was modified to have only one vestibule. The test was deemed a failure as the rebuild was too costly to justify on the remaining P85BR fleet. > > To convert a Rivarossi/AHM streamlined coach would require a fair amount of work. Here is a link to diagrams for the car side: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85c.gif&sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= > > To convert the Rivarossi/AHM coaches to the more common P85BR would be most easily accomplished by using a Brass Car Sides overlay. > > Chris Baker #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:59:48 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Jerry, Are you a member of the Steam Era Freight Car List (STFC))? That's the place to get these questions answered (and start a thread that will last for weeks;-) I can take a stab at the last one. Preco (and other makers) fans circulated the cold air through the car. They were belt driven off an axle when the cars moved. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jerry Britton wrote: > Okay, last month we covertly discussed reefers at great length under > the subject of Stock Cars!!! > > Speaking of wood reefers in the 36-40' variety... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/query_forum/im_reefer.jpg > > At approximately what year did the WFE change from their original paint > scheme to the one with the "large goat"? > > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? > > When did cars first see sill-mounted Preco fans, what are they, and > what did they do? > ------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:02:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 10:59 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I can take a stab at the last one. Preco (and other makers) fans > circulated the cold air through the car. They were belt driven off an > axle > when the cars moved. Era? Or always available and not on all cars? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:16:07 -0500 > > When did cars first see sill-mounted Preco fans, what are they, and > what did they do? Per the "Great Yellow Fleet" by John H White: The first patent was issued to Willliam E. Van Dorn in September, 1940, a second in May, 1944. Pacific Railway Equipment Company (PRECO) began marketing them and PFE began their use in 1941. FGEX followed three years later. By 1945 7000 reefers had them and by 1945 one-third of the reefer fleet had them. Mechanical drive was superceded by electrical drive in the early 1950's, alllowing the fans to be mounted near the ceiling. Purpose was to stimulate internal air circulation. Worked sufficiently well to put off the conversion to mechanical refrigeration a few years. Anyone serious about reefers should have the above book, if it is still obtainable. Still waiting for the FGEX-focused book, though the White book covers it in brief. Bob Zoeller Bayside, Wisconsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:23:10 -0500 I said: > By 1945 7000 reefers had them and "by 1945 one-third of the reefer > fleet had them". That should read "by1950 one-third of the reefer fleet had them." Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:38:30 -0500 > > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? Do you mean "Ventilated" and "Refrigerator" stacked? Photo of their second paint scheme about 1911 shows this. Built and rebuilt photos from 1926 to 1936 show the single line version. 1936 and 1937 and later new and rebuild photos go back to the stacked version. However, all the above is just random photo evidence and their was always overlap as far as I can tell. Needs a real PFE grognard to get those drawings which as we all know are also unreliable as to dates of implementation, if and when :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:51:39 +0000 Bob Zoeller wrote re "The Great Yellow Fleet": Anyone serious about reefers should have the above book, if it is still obtainable. Take extreme care with this book - Richard Hendrickson's review of the book in the Santa Fe Modelers magazine said it all: Jack White had the good luck to get Donald Duke as his publisher (excellent production quality) and the bad luck to get Duke as his co-author ("research" by Duke in this book is either superficial or wrong). Jack White wrote the section of the book prior to 1920, and you can regard his work as gospel; unfortunately, everything afterwards and ALL photo captions must be viewed with suspicion. That being said, it's a lot better than having nothing; however, Thompson's PFE and Hendrickson's SFRD books are far better researched and should be consulted if you need info on either of those car fleets. Otherwise, I'd verify anything (except for Jack White's section) in "Great Yellow Fleet" before accepting it as gospel. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:29:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO PRR Signal Bridge & N PRR Lineside Details From: Jerry Britton PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Alkem Scale Models has given me advance notice of the following two product announcements, to be shipped later this year: 1) HO scale PRR four track signal bridge. Laser-etched. Will be same as the previously released N scale version except that it will not include targets due to the availability of existing working signal targets from other vendors. Retail $49.99 each. 2) N scale PRR Lineside Details. This will have a diverse set of N scale line side details including code 55 joint bars, tie plates, six types of semaphores, 2 train order boards, switch stands (which can be made to operate), 3 kinds of switch targets, signal ladders and platforms, 4 cast iron RR crossing sign, 24 PRR 2 bar stanchions and 24 PRR 3 bar bar stanchions to make a total 1360 feet of PRR railing, and three types of whistle posts including the cast metal PRR posts with keystones and B&O Shield types. Price for this kit will be $24.99. If interested, contact your established Alkem dealer. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll results) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:23:15 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3940A.2F262A40 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; Mike brings up a very good point here. Without getting into too much detail, how much info would folks like to hear on techniques? We all had to learn them (correction, I still have to learn a bunch of them), so maybe we could be more explanatory about how to do stuff like carving off molded-on grabs, and using a pin vise to drill holes and all. Would that kind of stuff help, Mike? Also, Mike, would you look at the article on building up a resin car in TKM#3 and tell me if it still leaves too much left unsaid? Are we assuming too much and leaving the reader in the dark? We could do more. Because, we could explain ourselves better if we can get some direction as to what is needed. I had to break a few drill bits before I could figure out how to best use a pin vise (hey, and with my shaky hands it is a wonder I don't still break tons...I just figured out a way to avoid it). We can certainly write up the "how we did this and that" part for folks to follow along. What I think many of us are guilty of (I have certainly criticized the magazines enough for doing it) that I tried to avoid in the GR article, is not providing enough of the "how to" and too much of the "add this and that". I just don't have a yardstick to go by. Let us know what YOU need to know to do this project, and we can get a back-and-forth going to get you there. I'd appreciate all the feedback we can get. Thanks, Elden -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM [mailto:TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:08 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRRPro] Poll results for PRRPro Mike Schock writes... OK I have been modeling for about 2 years now. Nothing but kits, no details or anything else. I was looking for one of those group projects where someone does the work and the rest of us follow along. Is that what this is or is everyone doing their on thing? Also what do we have for models we can use for this project? I have either been chickening out or just procrastinating doing my first detail project which is why I was looking for something like this. BTW I model the B&O and PRR from 1940 to 1959. Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 Mike, thanks for joining our group! I think you can follow along as we share our progress as a group. If you are not overly skilled, we as a group can help you along and help you take that big step. Here's a list of things I will have handy to help me through this project... 1) A hobby knife with a chisel blade, like Xacto and #11 blades... 2) A wet stone for me and some Wet and Dry Sandpaper #400 and #600 to keep my blade sharp at all times, less gouging that was, smooth strokes. 3) More Wet and Dry for touch up sanding. And some 220 Garnet paper to rough up the deck surface to help simulate a worn creosote treated wood deck. 3) KADEE or equal couplers, I am using ACCURAIL Type E couples... 4) Oh Dang you will need a Bowser F30a or Sunshine kit or in S Scale at one time there was a F30a kit I believe ... Saw an ad for it the other night in an old Mainline Modeler as I was doing a bit of research. 5) You might consider new paint for the are but some might try the "save paint" method. 6) Styrene, sprung steel or brass rod if you do the air brake upgrade I use styrene rod stock from PLASTASTRUCT. 7) Air Brake hoses from either Detail Associates or KADEE. 8) You might need a set of small drill bits as well. That's about it and for those of us who plan to repaint the decal we need are made by Stan Radarowicz ... That is about the size of it unless you are doing a load. I have some photos to post to our archives list and some loading diagrams for the tractor loads. I have s photo of tractors loaded on a F30a and s couple pictures of the F30D with trailers loaded on them and crew wenching them down. Not a tough project for a beginner like yourself. Eventually we will help raise your bar. Greg Martin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click Here! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3940A.2F262A40 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = all;

Mike brings up a very good point = here.

 

=

Without getting into too much = detail, how much info would folks like to hear on = techniques?

 

=

We all had to learn them = (correction, I still have to learn a bunch of them), so maybe we could be more = explanatory about how to do stuff like carving off molded-on grabs, and using a pin = vise to drill holes and all.

 

=

Would that kind of stuff help, = Mike?

 

=

Also, Mike, would you look at the = article on building up a resin car in TKM#3 and tell me if it still leaves too = much left unsaid?  Are we = assuming too much and leaving the reader in the dark?  We could do more.

 

=

Because, we could explain = ourselves better if we can get some direction as to what is needed.  I had to break a few drill = bits before I could figure out how to best use a pin vise (hey, and with my shaky = hands it is a wonder I don't still break tons...I just figured out a way to avoid it).

 

=

We can certainly write up the "how we did this and that" part for folks to follow along.  What I think many of us are = guilty of (I have certainly criticized the magazines enough for doing it) that I = tried to avoid in the GR article, is not providing enough of the "how to" and too much of the "add this and that".  I just don't have a yardstick = to go by.

 

=

Let us know what YOU need to know = to do this project, and we can get a back-and-forth going to get you = there.

 

=

I'd appreciate all the feedback we can get.

Thanks,

Elden

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM [mailto:TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October = 15, 2003 9:08 PM
To: = PRRPro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] = Poll results for PRRPro

 

Mike Schock writes...


OK I have been modeling for about 2 years now.  = Nothing but kits, no details or anything else. I was looking for one of those = group projects where someone does the work and the rest of us follow = along.  Is that what this is or is everyone doing their on thing?  Also what = do we have for models we can use for this project? I have either been = chickening out or just procrastinating doing my first detail project which is why I = was looking for something like this.
BTW I model the B&O and PRR from 1940 to 1959.

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001




Mike,

thanks for joining our group!

I think you can follow along as we share our progress as a group.  = If you are not overly skilled, we as a group can help you along and help you = take that big step. Here's a list of things I will have handy to help me through = this project...

1) A hobby knife with a chisel blade, like Xacto and #11 blades...

2) A wet stone for me and some Wet and Dry Sandpaper #400 and #600 to = keep my blade sharp at all times, less gouging that was, smooth strokes.

3) More Wet and Dry for touch up sanding. And some 220 Garnet paper to = rough up the deck surface to help simulate a worn creosote treated wood deck. =

3) KADEE or equal couplers, I am using ACCURAIL Type E couples...

4) Oh Dang you will need a Bowser F30a or Sunshine kit or in S Scale at = one time there was a F30a kit I believe ... Saw an ad for it the other = night in an old Mainline Modeler as I was doing a bit of research.

5) You might consider new paint for the are but some might try the = "save paint" method.

6) Styrene, sprung steel or brass rod if you do the air brake upgrade I = use styrene rod stock from PLASTASTRUCT.

7) Air Brake hoses from either Detail Associates or KADEE.

8) You might need a set of small drill bits as well.

That's about it and for those of us who plan to repaint the decal we = need are made by Stan Radarowicz ...

That is about the size of it unless you are doing a load. I have some = photos to post to our archives list and some loading diagrams for the tractor = loads. I have s photo of tractors loaded on a F30a and s couple pictures of the = F30D with trailers loaded on them and crew wenching them down.

Not a tough project for a beginner like yourself. Eventually we will = help raise your bar.

Greg Martin



Yahoo! Groups = Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT<= br> 3D"Click

=


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.<= /span> =

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3940A.2F262A40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:31:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR Signal Bridge & N PRR Lineside Details From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-10--28511906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 11:29 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: > > Alkem Scale Models has given me advance notice of the following two > product announcements, to be shipped later this year: > > 1) HO scale PRR four track signal bridge. Laser-etched. Will be same > as the previously released N scale version except that it will not > include targets due to the availability of existing working signal > targets from other vendors. Retail $49.99 each. DROOOOOL! Now, can those be made into 2 track bridges 'cause that's what I REALLY need! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-10--28511906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 11:29 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Alkem Scale Models has given me advance notice of the following two product announcements, to be shipped later this year: 1) HO scale PRR four track signal bridge. Laser-etched. Will be same as the previously released N scale version except that it will not include targets due to the availability of existing working signal targets from other vendors. Retail $49.99 each. DROOOOOL! Now, can those be made into 2 track bridges 'cause that's what I REALLY need! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-10--28511906-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:43:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR Signal Bridge & N PRR Lineside Details From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 01:31 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > DROOOOOL! Now, can those be made into 2 track bridges 'cause that's > what I REALLY need! Yes, they can fairly easily be cut down to a two track bridge. But one four-track kit won't net you two two-track bridges due to the uprights. (Should be obvious, but just in case!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR Signal Bridge & N PRR Lineside Details Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:33:02 +0000 Jerry and the List: Has anyone ever come out with "Lines West" Signal bridges? These signal bridges were found throughout the PRR system but were more common in the east. West of Pittsburgh, another type of signal bridge was more common. It had "X" bracing within the bridge portion over the rails and had solid, semi-circular panels in the upper corners of the bridge. Does anyone know if these bridges have ever been produced in HO scale? TIA Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:41:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Reefer Page From: Jerry Britton Probably long overdue, folks, but I've added a page on Reefer Operations in the Modeling section of "Keystone Crossings". The address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d The whole thing was just done today, so it is definitely a "work in progress". I wanted to put this together for my own benefit, due to forthcoming releases in N scale. The page makes a lot of references to N scale models. Eventually I will expand it to include HO. But it does get into what roads' cars were on the PRR, how they were used, what paint schemes are appropriate for when, etc. Special thanks go out to Gregg Mahlkov and Bruce Smith for tons of info!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll results) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:06:35 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:23 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll results) > Hi all; > Mike brings up a very good point here. > > Without getting into too much detail, how much info would folks like to hear > on techniques? > > We all had to learn them (correction, I still have to learn a bunch of > them), so maybe we could be more explanatory about how to do stuff like > carving off molded-on grabs, and using a pin vise to drill holes and all. > A separate page can be written for each of these subtasks, and a link can be inserted into the car instructions for those who need more detail. That way the reader can get as much detail as needed, and the subtasks don't need to be rewritten in every article. --------- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:29:38 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page Jerry, Since your last line gives me credit along with those other people who really know, like Gregg and Bruce, the least I can do is suggest some additions. 1. In HO Walthers now makes an excellent R50b 2. REA Reefers were probably more prolific than the photos you saw might indicate. In fact my sense is that they were more common than the R50b. In HO Walthers makes an excellent 1956 version of the REA steel reefer. Branchline has announced the 1949 version. 3. In HO C&BT makes some usable SFRD reefers, including plug door models 4. I'm not sure where you got your 1950 "Mix of owners", but Rob Schoenburg's 1952 roster shows NO PRR reefers in freight interchange. Also, ATSF should be SFRD, the reefer operating company owned by SF; and UP and SP should be PFE. Combining them would put PFE clearly on top ahead of SFRD. Again, I'm curious where you got the UP and SP numbers. I'm far from an expert on these roads, but I thought neither owned any reefers in their own name, rather, they owned shares of PFE. Now that you've made a great start at keeping the vegetarians happy, we need someone to account for the meat reefers. (No, I am not volunteering. What I know about meat would not make a Happy Meal. ;-) Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jerry Britton wrote: > Probably long overdue, folks, but I've added a page on Reefer > Operations in the Modeling section of "Keystone Crossings". The address > is > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d > > The whole thing was just done today, so it is definitely a "work in > progress". > > I wanted to put this together for my own benefit, due to forthcoming > releases in N scale. The page makes a lot of references to N scale > models. Eventually I will expand it to include HO. But it does get into > what roads' cars were on the PRR, how they were used, what paint > schemes are appropriate for when, etc. > > Special thanks go out to Gregg Mahlkov and Bruce Smith for tons of > info!!! > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll results) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:06:25 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39420.F9F80070 Content-Type: text/plain Jerry, Ben and Bruce; Jerry has a good idea. Could we do that? Bruce, could we create little WORD files for attachment by you to the larger group database, or do you want the text in e-mail messages, or are you going to bear the brunt of it and do it all yourself (we won't ask you to!)? Do you want volunteers for any of this? I wish I'd bought that video when it came out, but maybe for those that can't afford it/don't want to, we could provide synopses, OR our own ideas, by the above means? And maybe some would benefit by several people's ideas? What do you all think? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Shickler [mailto:geshick@velocity.net] Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:07 PM To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll results) ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:23 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll results) > Hi all; > Mike brings up a very good point here. > > Without getting into too much detail, how much info would folks like to hear > on techniques? > > We all had to learn them (correction, I still have to learn a bunch of > them), so maybe we could be more explanatory about how to do stuff like > carving off molded-on grabs, and using a pin vise to drill holes and all. > A separate page can be written for each of these subtasks, and a link can be inserted into the car instructions for those who need more detail. That way the reader can get as much detail as needed, and the subtasks don't need to be rewritten in every article. --------- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39420.F9F80070 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was Poll = results)

Jerry, Ben and Bruce;
Jerry has a good idea.  Could we do = that?

Bruce, could we create little WORD files for = attachment by you to the larger group database, or do you want the text = in e-mail messages, or are you going to bear the brunt of it and do it = all yourself (we won't ask you to!)?  Do you want volunteers for = any of this?

I wish I'd bought that video when it came out, but = maybe for those that can't afford it/don't want to, we could provide = synopses, OR our own ideas, by the above means?  And maybe some = would benefit by several people's ideas?  What do you all = think?

Elden



-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Shickler [mailto:geshick@velocity.net] =
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:07 PM
To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; = prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a = car.....(was Poll results)


----- Original Message -----
From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" = <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>
To: <PRRPro@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <PRR-Modeling@egroups.com>; = <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:23 PM
Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Building a car.....(was = Poll results)


> Hi all;
> Mike brings up a very good point here.
>
> Without getting into too much detail, how much = info would folks like to
hear
> on techniques?
>
> We all had to learn them (correction, I still = have to learn a bunch of
> them), so maybe we could be more explanatory = about how to do stuff like
> carving off molded-on grabs, and using a pin = vise to drill holes and all.
>

A separate page can be written for each of these = subtasks, and a link can be
inserted into the car instructions for those who = need more detail.  That way
the reader can get as much detail as needed, and the = subtasks don't need to
be rewritten in every article.

---------

Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua = branch web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39420.F9F80070-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR Signal Bridge & N PRR Lineside Details There was an annoucement over on the PRR-Signaling list about the "Lines West" signal bridge coming out in HO next year. Lets keep our fingers crossed!!!!! Hope this helps..... Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:43:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... --part1_ad.349c9dd5.2cc0951d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An excellent book on the PFE reefers, with many comparisons to competitors' cars, is the Pacific Fruit Express by Thompson, Church and Jones, published by Signature Press. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_ad.349c9dd5.2cc0951d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   An excellent book on the PFE reefers, with many= comparisons to competitors' cars, is the Pacific Fruit Express by Thompson,= Church and Jones, published by Signature Press.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_ad.349c9dd5.2cc0951d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Smith" Subject: [PRR] 10-1-2, 8-1-2 Pullman Sleepers Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:06:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C39429.6E3912F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking at the information on the Railfan.net web site concerning = passenger consists of the PRR in 1957, I do not see any 10-1-2 or 8-1-2 = sleepers in use. When did the PRR stop using these cars? Jeff=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C39429.6E3912F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looking at the=20 information on the Railfan.net web site concerning passenger consists of = the PRR=20 in 1957, I do not see any 10-1-2 or 8-1-2 sleepers in use. When did the = PRR stop=20 using these cars?


Jeff =

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C39429.6E3912F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:06:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... --part1_7b.1b0c14ec.2cc09aac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/16/2003 11:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobspf@wi.rr.com writes: > Needs a > real PFE grognard There's a word I haven't seen for a while. Isn't that the nickname for veterans of the French Napoleonic armies? Lee Rainey --part1_7b.1b0c14ec.2cc09aac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/16/2003 11:44:58 AM Eastern Stan= dard Time, bobspf@wi.rr.com writes:


Needs a
real PFE grognard


There's a word I haven't seen for a while. Isn't that the nickname for veter= ans of the French Napoleonic armies?

Lee Rainey --part1_7b.1b0c14ec.2cc09aac_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:16:35 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 Couplers-Help needed. List- Has anyone figured out an easy way to install Kadee's on the BLI GG1? Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:22:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 10-1-2, 8-1-2 Pullman Sleepers From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 09:06 PM, Jeff Smith wrote: > Looking at the information on the Railfan.net web site concerning > passenger consists of the PRR in 1957, I do not see any 10-1-2 or > 8-1-2 sleepers in use. When did the PRR stop using these cars? I looked into these years ago when Branchline announced them. Geez, was that spring of 2000? They still haven't delivered! Since then I changed to N scale! As of 1954, there were only three 8-1-2's still on the roster -- CENTFAUN, CENTHILL, and CENTWOOD. As of the same year, there were 13 LAKE ____ 10-1-2's still on the roster. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:45:47 -0700 It's absolutely amazing what a couple of mouse clicks can discover... Grognard: a soldier of Napoleons' Old Guard; a veteran soldier; grumbler (French) - Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed Grognard: (slang) an experienced wargamer - John Young, Strategy & Tactics magazine Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:06:52 EDT LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/16/2003 11:44:58 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > bobspf@wi.rr.com writes: > > > > Needs a > > real PFE grognard > > There's a word I haven't seen for a while. Isn't that the > nickname for > veterans of the French Napoleonic armies? > > Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:01:13 -0700 Andy and all... A few frigid comments (couldn't resist that one!) First of all the CB&T Shops Santa Fe reefers are anything but servicible...if you are at all intereseted in these cars do yourself a favor and avoid these abominations. While they can be made somewhat reasonable with a LOT of work, (and I admit that they are the only game in town when it comes to the plug door cars) the Intermountain Santa Fe ice-activated reefer is clearly the way to go. While I cannot speak for UP, the SP did indeed roster some reefers that were lettered SOUTHERN PACIFIC and were not PFE. These cars were wooden and came from the Espee's acquisition of the El Paso &South Western in 1924 (the EP&SW was a home town road here in Tucson, FWIW) And the total numbers of PFE cars were well in excess of SFRD, which was the second most numberous of the refrigerator operators. Check Thompson, Church and Jones's PACIFIC FRUIT EXPRESS (Signature Press) or Jordan, Hendrickson, Moore and Hale's SANTA FE REFERENCE SERIES VOL 2 REFRIGERATOR CARS (SFMO) for further information on these cars. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 10-1-2, 8-1-2 Pullman Sleepers Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:16:11 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > As of 1954, there were only three 8-1-2's still on the roster -- > CENTFAUN, CENTHILL, and CENTWOOD. > > As of the same year, there were 13 LAKE ____ 10-1-2's still on the > roster. Three of the Lake series 10-1-2s are shown in Dallas in 1963-64 in the color guides. 10-3 Villa Royal is incorrectly listed as a 10-1-2 in the same era. Lake Maitland is incorrectly listed in one picture as a 10-1-1. Don't see any 8-1-2s. The color guide indicates the Lake cars in the pictures in Dallas were converted to work service a year or two later. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:20:37 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler What a great job. The Keystone Modeler gets better and better. I'm almost sorry for anyone without internet access. This could be another way to attract new members. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:59:46 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C39406.E7116F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closingRule 261 allows for trains to travel in = either direction on a given track under signal authority. A = prerequisite obviously is that signals are installed in both directions = on the track. Much of the PRR started out with 251 which only provides = signals in one direction. Some other authority is required to go the = other direction. With 2 track branches and 4 track mains, 251 worked ok = for PRR, though they would install 261 on the center tracks in high = density areas. Today with fewer main tracks, 261 gives the dispatchers = more needed flexibility, and the trend is to install 261 on all tracks. John -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Nelson To: PKMac101@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com = ; PRR@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Hi Pat: When will C no longer have an operator? Can you explain what rule 261 = is? Thanks, Doug Nelson. ---------- From: PKMac101@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 2:50 PM List, The cutover of "C" will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of = "C" to "SO". That should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three = tracks after all these years. Will take over a week to do the whole = piece from "SO" to "CONPITT". Should be lots of interesting radio = conversations. Get your pictures while you can. May be a bit cold on = sunday but worth it. Pat McKinney=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C39406.E7116F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] "C" Tower closing
Rule 261 allows for trains to travel in either = direction on a=20 given track under signal authority.  A prerequisite obviously is = that=20 signals are installed in both directions on the track.  Much of the = PRR=20 started out with 251 which only provides signals in one direction.  = Some=20 other authority is required to go the other direction.  With 2 = track=20 branches and 4 track mains, 251 worked ok for PRR, though they=20 would install 261 on the center tracks in high density = areas. =20 Today with fewer main tracks, 261 gives the dispatchers more needed = flexibility,=20 and the trend is to install 261 on all tracks.
 
John
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Douglas Nelson <dougnelson@mindspring.com&g= t;
To:=20 PKMac101@aol.com <PKMac101@aol.com>; prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>; PRR@yahoogroups.com <PRR@yahoogroups.com>
Dat= e:=20 Wednesday, October 15, 2003 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = "C" Tower=20 closing

Hi Pat:

When will C no longer have = an=20 operator?  Can you explain what rule 261 = is?

Thanks,
Doug=20 Nelson.

----------
From: PKMac101@aol.com
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com,=20 PRR@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PRR] "C" Tower closing
Date: Wed, = Oct 15,=20 2003, 2:50 PM


List,
        The= =20 cutover of "C" will begin Sun,10-19. New signals east of "C" to = "SO". That=20 should be getting new rule 261 signaling on all three tracks after = all these=20 years. Will take over a week to do the whole piece from "SO" to = "CONPITT".=20 Should be lots of interesting radio conversations. Get your pictures = while=20 you can. May be a bit cold on sunday but worth it.

Pat=20 McKinney
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C39406.E7116F60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Reefers... Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:03:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C39439.BEDBD2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Literally means "old or veteran soldier". Used in context in military = gaming, I always (perhaps incorrectly) interpeted it to mean a detail = hound (rivet counter?:-)) or "geek" about military gaming. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LeeRainey@aol.com=20 In a message dated 10/16/2003 11:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, = bobspf@wi.rr.com writes: Needs a real PFE grognard There's a word I haven't seen for a while. Isn't that the nickname for = veterans of the French Napoleonic armies? Lee Rainey ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C39439.BEDBD2F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Literally means "old or veteran = soldier". =20 Used in context in military gaming, I always (perhaps incorrectly)=20  interpeted it to mean a detail hound (rivet counter?:-)) or = "geek"=20 about military gaming.
 
Bob Zoeller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LeeRainey@aol.com

In a message dated = 10/16/2003=20 11:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobspf@wi.rr.com = writes:


Needs a
real PFE grognard

There's = a word I=20 haven't seen for a while. Isn't that the nickname for veterans of the = French=20 Napoleonic armies?

Lee Rainey = ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C39439.BEDBD2F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:33:16 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Coal via Indy? In a message dated 10/15/03 7:31:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Kentucky coal via Cincinnati to Chicago.. history and an > update > From: "Steve Hipes" > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:54:07 +0000 > > > Rick wrote: > > > >Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to > >Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went > >Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via >two possible routings)-Schererville IN, > > >and was interchanged. Two routings because the direct route >from Newman > >(Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I > >believe it was >a manual block railroad. > > > From what I know, Rick is correct in that the Gary US Steel trains went at > least two routes between Cincinnati and Logansport. The Richmond Branch was > > single track with MBS between Newman and Anoka. With the passenger trains > bewteen Chicago and Cincinnati and and a local out and about, during the > day, the Richmond Branch was considered congested due to a lack of capacity. > > Typically, the Gary train would run Newman-Anoka if there was no other > traffic around. One known routing for the Gary US Steel train was > Richmond-Ridgeville-Logansport. > > I have heard, but have never been able to find any proof, that those trains > on occasion ran the Main Line from Richmond to Indianapolis then went up the > > I&F Branch to Logansport. This seems unlikely since 1) it would require > four crews instead of three to get the train from Cincinnati to Gary and 2) > as we all know, the Indy terminal could get really congested. Why would > they want to throw a coal train into the Indy mix unless they did it on a > Sunday or Monday night when activity was likely to be a bit slower in terms > of yard and local jobs out and working? > > Steve Hipes > Columbus, Ohio > Steve, I don't know how often coal might have been rerouted via Indy. That's a new one on me. However, as a matter of conjecture, consider these ideas: 1. the Panhandle main between Richmond and Indy was doubletracked with better signaling, and thus might have some capacity 2. Indy had the doubletrack Belt Railway as a bypass around IU tower and Union Station. This kept the freight traffic out of the stop-and-go passenger patterns around IUS. 3. The I&F branch, leaving the St. Louis-bound main at Ben Davis, was built in 1916 as a low-grade route for coal. 4. Trains to/from Indy didn't even have to pass through downtown Logansport, as ones via ANOKA did. They'd just swing around the southwest wye track at VAN tower. The above is not at all conclusive. OTOH, it just might have worked. What we do seem to know for sure is that the direct route - the MBS route from NEWMAN up through Elwood to ANOKA -- hit a lot of congested towns along the way. And the Pennsy wasn't known for discouraging high-volume business -- they'd find some way to move it. It'd be nice to nail more of this down. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:32:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Reefer lettering phases, GN and PFE --part1_18a.20cd85cf.2cc12d36_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, Let's see what the "real experts" do to a little research I did: In a message dated 10/16/03 1:36:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > At approximately what year did the WFE change from their original paint > scheme to the one with the "large goat"? Starting in 1929, the WFE reefer was done in recognizable Fruit-Growers-Express-style lettering; this because FGE contracted to operate and maintain the WFE fleet around this date. In 1929 these yellow-sided reefers, like other FGE cars, probably carried the legend "VENTILATOR and REFRIGERATOR" to the right of the door. In 1948, the standard was again FGE-like, but the right half of the carside now carried a GN herald, GREAT NORTHERN in white on a red ring, with the goat inside In 1952, the herald read "GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY". In 1961, the herald read "GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY" and had "REFRIGERATOR" under it (for ice reefers) The big circle with goat came in with the "Big Sky Blue" image in 1967. Since this lasted two years, we can bet the number of reefers carrying it were limited. Post-BN merger paint schemes for WFE and RBNX reefers carried the BN herald in black on the right; the lettering styles used begin to get more modern also. Note: in all cases, the above is true only for ice and mechanical reefers. Phases of lettering (and the dates) of insulated box cars, even those built or maintained by FGE, will be different. > > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? > I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2. FGE was using similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952, and probably long before. I believe Preco fans were turned mechanically when the car was moving, or could be powered in terminals by an add-on electric motor. Not sure when they started, but lasted as long as ice reefers roamed the rails. I saw my last FGE ice cars under load in 1974, but think they lasted for a couple more summer rushes. I think the 1974 cars might have even been wood-sheathed -- talk about museum pieces. And speaking of museum pieces, don't miss the restored PFE reefer inside the California State Railroad Museum. It's gorgeous! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_18a.20cd85cf.2cc12d36_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,

Let's see what the "real experts" do to a little research I did:

In a message dated 10/16/03 1:36:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.= com writes:


At approximately what year did=20= the WFE change from their original paint
scheme to the one with the "large goat"?


Starting in 1929, the WFE reefer was done in recognizable Fruit-Growers-Expr= ess-style lettering; this because FGE contracted to operate and maintain the= WFE fleet around this date.  In 1929 these yellow-sided reefers, like=20= other FGE cars, probably carried the legend "VENTILATOR and REFRIGERATOR" to= the right of the door.

In 1948, the standard was again FGE-like, but the right half of the carside=20= now carried a GN herald, GREAT NORTHERN in white on a red ring, with the goa= t inside

In 1952, the herald read "GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY".

In 1961, the herald read "GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY" and had "REFRIGERATOR" und= er it (for ice reefers)

The big circle with goat came in with the "Big Sky Blue" image in 1967. = ; Since this lasted two years, we can bet the number of reefers carrying it=20= were limited.

Post-BN merger paint schemes for WFE and RBNX reefers carried the BN herald=20= in black on the right; the lettering styles used begin to get more modern al= so.

Note: in all cases, the above is true only for ice and mechanical reefers.&n= bsp; Phases of lettering (and the dates) of insulated box cars, even those b= uilt or maintained by FGE, will be different.


At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and
Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door?

I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2.  FGE was u= sing similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952, and pro= bably long before.

I believe Preco fans were turned mechanically when the car was moving, or co= uld be powered in terminals by an add-on electric motor.  Not sure when= they started, but lasted as long as ice reefers roamed the rails.

I saw my last FGE ice cars under load in 1974, but think they lasted for a c= ouple more summer rushes.  I think the 1974 cars might have even been w= ood-sheathed -- talk about museum pieces.

And speaking of museum pieces, don't miss the restored PFE reefer inside the= California State Railroad Museum.  It's gorgeous!

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_18a.20cd85cf.2cc12d36_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:33:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Coal via Indy? --part1_a8.23b6a296.2cc12d7c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/03 7:31:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Kentucky coal via Cincinnati to Chicago.. history and an > update > From: "Steve Hipes" > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:54:07 +0000 > > > Rick wrote: > > > >Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to > >Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went > >Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via >two possible routings)-Schererville IN, > > >and was interchanged. Two routings because the direct route >from Newman > >(Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I > >believe it was >a manual block railroad. > > > From what I know, Rick is correct in that the Gary US Steel trains went at > least two routes between Cincinnati and Logansport. The Richmond Branch was > > single track with MBS between Newman and Anoka. With the passenger trains > bewteen Chicago and Cincinnati and and a local out and about, during the > day, the Richmond Branch was considered congested due to a lack of capacity. > > Typically, the Gary train would run Newman-Anoka if there was no other > traffic around. One known routing for the Gary US Steel train was > Richmond-Ridgeville-Logansport. > > I have heard, but have never been able to find any proof, that those trains > on occasion ran the Main Line from Richmond to Indianapolis then went up the > > I&F Branch to Logansport. This seems unlikely since 1) it would require > four crews instead of three to get the train from Cincinnati to Gary and 2) > as we all know, the Indy terminal could get really congested. Why would > they want to throw a coal train into the Indy mix unless they did it on a > Sunday or Monday night when activity was likely to be a bit slower in terms > of yard and local jobs out and working? > > Steve Hipes > Columbus, Ohio > Steve, I don't know how often coal might have been rerouted via Indy. That's a new one on me. However, as a matter of conjecture, consider these ideas: 1. the Panhandle main between Richmond and Indy was doubletracked with better signaling, and thus might have some capacity 2. Indy had the doubletrack Belt Railway as a bypass around IU tower and Union Station. This kept the freight traffic out of the stop-and-go passenger patterns around IUS. 3. The I&F branch, leaving the St. Louis-bound main at Ben Davis, was built in 1916 as a low-grade route for coal. 4. Trains to/from Indy didn't even have to pass through downtown Logansport, as ones via ANOKA did. They'd just swing around the southwest wye track at VAN tower. The above is not at all conclusive. OTOH, it just might have worked. What we do seem to know for sure is that the direct route - the MBS route from NEWMAN up through Elwood to ANOKA -- hit a lot of congested towns along the way. And the Pennsy wasn't known for discouraging high-volume business -- they'd find some way to move it. It'd be nice to nail more of this down. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a8.23b6a296.2cc12d7c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/15/03=20= 7:31:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Kentucky coa= l via Cincinnati to Chicago.. history and an update
From: "Steve Hipes" <sthipes@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:54:07 +0000


Rick wrote:


>Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to<= BR> >Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went
>Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via >two possible routings)-Scherervil= le IN,
>and was interchanged.  Two routings because the direct route >fr= om Newman
>(Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I >believe it was >a manual block railroad.


>From what I know, Rick is correct in that the Gary US Steel trains went at <= BR> least two routes between Cincinnati and Logansport.  The Richmond Branc= h was
single track with MBS between Newman and Anoka.  With the passenger tra= ins
bewteen Chicago and Cincinnati and and a local out and about, during the day, the Richmond Branch was considered congested due to a lack of capacity.=
  Typically, the Gary train would run Newman-Anoka if there was no othe= r
traffic around.  One known routing for the Gary US Steel train was
Richmond-Ridgeville-Logansport.

I have heard, but have never been able to find any proof, that those trains=20=
on occasion ran the Main Line from Richmond to Indianapolis then went up the=
I&F Branch to Logansport.  This seems unlikely since 1) it would re= quire
four crews instead of three to get the train from Cincinnati to Gary and 2)=20=
as we all know, the Indy terminal could get really congested.  Why woul= d
they want to throw a coal train into the Indy mix unless they did it on a Sunday or Monday night when activity was likely to be a bit slower in terms=20=
of yard and local jobs out and working?

Steve Hipes
Columbus, Ohio


Steve,

I don't know how often coal might have been rerouted via Indy.  That's=20= a new one on me.  However, as a matter of conjecture, consider these id= eas:
1. the Panhandle main between Richmond and Indy was doubletracked with bette= r signaling, and thus might have some capacity
2. Indy had the doubletrack Belt Railway as a bypass around IU tower and Uni= on Station.  This kept the freight traffic out of the stop-and-go passe= nger patterns around IUS.
3.  The I&F branch, leaving the St. Louis-bound main at Ben Davis,=20= was built in 1916 as a low-grade route for coal.
4.  Trains to/from Indy didn't even have to pass through downtown Logan= sport, as ones via ANOKA did.  They'd just swing around the southwest w= ye track at VAN tower.
The above is not at all conclusive.  OTOH, it just might have worked.
What we do seem to know for sure is that the direct route - the MBS route fr= om NEWMAN up through Elwood to ANOKA -- hit a lot of congested towns along t= he way.  And the Pennsy wasn't known for discouraging high-volume busin= ess -- they'd find some way to move it.

It'd be nice to nail more of this down.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_a8.23b6a296.2cc12d7c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:06:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page From: Jerry Britton Who can comment on the BREX symbol reefers, and what paint schemes they wore/when? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:09:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/17/03 I was sitting on the fence about joining the PRRH&TS, an the Keystone Modeler (along with a little nudge from Al) psuhed me over the edge. I am very glad I joined. I am glad I did as I am interested in both the modeling and historical aspects of the PRR. I have devoured my first few issues of the Keystone as well. Fred happily PRRT&HS #7321 Subject: Keystone Modeler From: "John Ryan" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:20:37 -0400 What a great job. The Keystone Modeler gets better and better. I'm almost sorry for anyone without internet access. This could be another way to attract new members. John Ryan ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:16:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/17/03 From: Jerry Britton On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 08:09 AM, Fred Talasco wrote: > I was sitting on the fence about joining the PRRH&TS, > an the Keystone Modeler (along with a little nudge > from Al) psuhed me over the edge. I am very glad I > joined. > > I am glad I did as I am interested in both the > modeling and historical aspects of the PRR. I have > devoured my first few issues of the Keystone as well. Welcome aboard! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:30:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer lettering phases, GN and PFE From: Jerry Britton On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:32 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? > > > I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2.=A0 FGE = was=20 > using similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952,=20= > and probably long before. Rick, Gregg Mahlkov had previously provided the following: "According to the information in Russ Clover's dry transfer catalog,=20 the FGE 'VENTILATOR' and 'REFRIGERATOR' stacked was used through 1959.=20= The Sans Serif 'REFRIGERATOR' was used after 1959, although some cars=20 were marked 'FHIX' and 'REFRIGERATOR' beginning in 1949." Since you weren't sure of your data, and Gregg alludes to some=20 following your scheme (FHIX), any reason to dispute the above? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:33:49 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: Who can comment on the BREX symbol reefers, and what paint schemes they wore/when? Jerry, the definitive reference is Burlington Bulletin #12, an all-BREX issue still available from the Burlington Route Historical Society for $11 ($6 + $5 shipping): http://www.burlingtonroute.com/ Click on "Company Store," then "Bulletin" I'm at work and can't reference it right now, and won't get to it until I get back in town Sunday night - I won't post a half-assed answer based on memory alone. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:46:11 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page Bill, You are, for the most part, right. The C&BT cars are clearly lower caliber than the IM. I carefully chose the word "serviceable" in hopes of not implying that they were rivet counter material. They are, however, a legitimate attempt to model an SFRD reefer. They are well above the category of Athearn R-40-23s painted SFRD ;-) Perhaps there worst fault is poor painting. Their biggest advantage is that they are still available as kits. IM cars seem to be more and more only RTR and therefore hard to upgrade and expensive to build a fleet of. Lastly, since they are on the market, they deserve (qualified) mention in Jerry list of cars. (And they are the only game in town for plug door models.) Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= billd@gci-net.com wrote: > Andy and all... > > A few frigid comments (couldn't resist that one!) > > First of all the CB&T Shops Santa Fe reefers are anything > but servicible...if you are at all intereseted in these > cars do yourself a favor and avoid these abominations. > While they can be made somewhat reasonable with a LOT of > work, (and I admit that they are the only game in town when > it comes to the plug door cars) the Intermountain Santa Fe > ice-activated reefer is clearly the way to go. > > While I cannot speak for UP, the SP did indeed roster some > reefers that were lettered SOUTHERN PACIFIC and were not > PFE. These cars were wooden and came from the Espee's > acquisition of the El Paso &South Western in 1924 (the > EP&SW was a home town road here in Tucson, FWIW) > > And the total numbers of PFE cars were well in excess of > SFRD, which was the second most numberous of the > refrigerator operators. Check Thompson, Church and Jones's > PACIFIC FRUIT EXPRESS (Signature Press) or Jordan, > Hendrickson, Moore and Hale's SANTA FE REFERENCE SERIES VOL > 2 REFRIGERATOR CARS (SFMO) for further information on these > cars. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:01:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 Couplers-Help needed. I installed scale Accurails. They have worked very well and look fantastic. As I recall it required a little carving of the frame, but nothing serious. The scale Accurails do not have the problem the original ones did of locking open. And installed on the BLI GG-1 they sound like the real thing ;-) Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > List- > > Has anyone figured out an easy way to install Kadee's on the BLI GG1? > > Eddie ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:57:48 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Perhaps the URL of the latest issue should be regularly posted to prime recruiting ground such as rec.models.railroad, and the Steam era freight car list. I bet those guys would love to know what Eldon knows about PRR gons! Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= John Ryan wrote: > What a great job. The Keystone Modeler gets better and better. I'm > almost sorry for anyone without internet access. This could be another > way to attract new members. > > John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:01:35 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 Couplers-Help needed. I installed scale Accurails. They have worked very well and look fantastic. As I recall it required a little carving of the frame, but nothing serious. The scale Accurails do not have the problem the original ones did of locking open. And installed on the BLI GG-1 they sound like the real thing ;-) Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > List- > > Has anyone figured out an easy way to install Kadee's on the BLI GG1? > > Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:09:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeler From: Jerry Britton On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 08:57 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Perhaps the URL of the latest issue should be regularly posted to prime > recruiting ground such as rec.models.railroad, and the Steam era > freight > car list. I bet those guys would love to know what Eldon knows about > PRR > gons! That's an excellent idea, Andrew! And each issue should have one concise paragraph stating that it is the "electronic arm" of the Society and point them to the Society's page for membership information. Every little bit helps. Many months ago Al approached me about adding a Society ad banner to the Keystone Crossings random ad banner display program. It's been doing hundreds (sometimes over 1k) impressions a day with many click-throughs. Hopefully some of these click-throughs convert to memberships. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Hyatt Bearing Covers Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:08:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3948E.45EF8DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone on this circuit know or have an address for a Hyatt Brg Co.? I need 6 Hyatt Brg Covers 6 11 for a Pullman Car. Any assistance would = be appreciated. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3948E.45EF8DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone on this circuit know or have an address for a Hyatt Brg = Co.?
 
I need 6 Hyatt Brg Covers 6 11 for a Pullman Car. Any assistance = would be=20 appreciated.
 
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3948E.45EF8DA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:16:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-2-42556711 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Who can comment on the BREX symbol reefers, and what paint schemes > they wore/when? BREX, Burlington Refrigerator Express, the minor partner in the FGE/WFE/BRE Cars painted similarly to FGE, WFE Accurail (GASP!) has an accurate BREX wood reefer in HO - item 4801...1959's style paint (this may be the ONLY accurate scheme for this model...) 5th avenue Car shops has custom painted versions for the earlier (1926-195?) (on the Accurail web site under "Custom Painting" A prototype photo of the earlier scheme is posted to the files area of the STMFC group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/BREX-1.jpg Microscale makes HO decals for Burlington reefers #87-535 Burlington Route (CB&Q) 50' Mechanical Refrigerator Cars 1926-1957. (beats me why they say mechanical!) #87-572 Burlington Refrigerator Cars 1957-1970. In N scale #60-535 Chicago Burlington & Quincy (CB&Q) Refrigerator Car - Mechanical - 50' 1926-57 #60-572 Chicago Burlington & Quincy (CB&Q) 1957-70 Remember, for the mid 1940's the FGE/WFE/BRE fleet should be 6:3:1 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-42556711 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Times On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: Who can comment on the BREX symbol reefers, and what paint schemes they wore/when? BREX, Burlington Refrigerator Express, the minor partner in the FGE/WFE/BRE Cars painted similarly to FGE, WFE Accurail (GASP!) has an accurate BREX wood reefer in HO - item 4801...1959's style paint (this may be the ONLY accurate scheme for this model...) 5th avenue Car shops has custom painted versions for the earlier (1926-195?) (on the Accurail web site under "Custom Painting" A prototype photo of the earlier scheme is posted to the files area of the STMFC group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/0000,0000,FFFFBREX-1.jpg Microscale makes HO decals for Burlington reefers #87-535 Burlington Route (CB&Q) 50' Mechanical Refrigerator Cars 1926-1957. (beats me why they say mechanical!) #87-572 Burlington Refrigerator Cars 1957-1970. In N scale #60-535 Chicago Burlington & Quincy (CB&Q) Refrigerator Car - Mechanical - 50' 1926-57 #60-572 Chicago Burlington & Quincy (CB&Q) 1957-70 Remember, for the mid 1940's the FGE/WFE/BRE fleet should be 6:3:1 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-42556711-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:21:42 +0000 Andrew Miller wrote: The C&BT cars are clearly lower caliber than the IM. I carefully chose the word "serviceable" in hopes of not implying that they were rivet counter material. They are, however, a legitimate attempt to model an SFRD reefer. <> Perhaps there worst fault is poor painting. Their biggest advantage is that they are still available as kits. IM cars seem to be more and more only RTR and therefore hard to upgrade and expensive to build a fleet of. Lastly, since they are on the market, they deserve (qualified) mention in Jerry list of cars. (And they are the only game in town for plug door models.) After having built a couple of these, I disagree. Their faults go beyond just poor painting. The cars are not particularly easy to assemble; the detail parts are inferior to the IM cars; early production cars have serious underframe issues which result in the cars riding almost 1/4" (actual) too high (corrected on later runs). The fit and detail problems can be corrected to produce, as Andy calls it, "rivet counter material" as Richard Hendrickson and Keith Jordan have done, but don't fool yourself by saying these are a one for one replacement for the Intermountain kit without some work. For more information on salvaging the C&BT SFRD reefer, see: Andy Sperandeo, "Product Review: C&BT Santa Fe Reefer," Model Railroader, Jan 93. (NOTE: Not your typical MR product review - Andy clearly identifies the faults of this kit and how to fix them.) Richard Hendrickson, "Upgrading C&BT Shops Santa Fe 40 ft Reefer Kits," Railmodel Journal, Nov 94. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:31:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Page From: Jerry Britton On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 09:16 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Remember, for the mid 1940's the FGE/WFE/BRE fleet should be 6:3:1. Without getting into calculating ratios, any feel for how the numbers adjusted going forward -- say to mid 1950's? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:44:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Still Talkin' Reefers... From: Jerry Britton Part of the reefer page ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d ) had a list of numbers of cars owned by various roads. This was attributed to Bruce Smith. Andrew Miller challenged it. We discovered that Bruce had responded in one post last month about both reefers and stock cars. The numbers posted on the reefer page were stock cars!!! They have been removed. Sorry for the confusion! Starting to get info on BREX. Bruce noted that Microscale sells decals (CB&Q). They offer two eras: 1926-1957 and 1957-1970. The differences probably include "VENTILATOR-REFRIGERATOR" vs. "REFRIGERATOR" only. Anyone know? (Microscale does not have images of the decal sheets on their site.) Reefer page is really shaping up. Thanks to all who are helping. I've added quite a bit since yesterday! A lot of folks are asking for the same for meat reefers, but that is probably a bit more involved. It comes down to volunteers -- who has the info and can share!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:18:44 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C394C1.F42C5190 Content-Type: text/plain Guys; Excellent idea flow. I appreciate all these efforts to get both PRR modeling and the PRRT&HS out there. I don't know anything about those sites, although I really ought to sign up for the steam era list (even if I am a diesel-era guy, I could learn a lot). But I am so computer/net-stupid it isn't funny. Andy, do you want to give it a try? I mean, I assume you have to ask whoever is concerned, and they have to create a link on their site? Or am I continuing to exhibit my stupidity? And, I really don't know all that much about PRR gons. I am serious. Ian Fischer knows a lot about PRR gons! Rich Burg knows more about PRR gons than I could ever hope to. Jack Consoli embarrasses me with what he knows! I only know a bit about PRR gon MODELS, which is why I so brazenly stole that slot in the TKM line-up. Thanks! And good work guys! Keep those ideas coming. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 6:09 AM To: Andrew S. Miller Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeler On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 08:57 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Perhaps the URL of the latest issue should be regularly posted to prime > recruiting ground such as rec.models.railroad, and the Steam era > freight > car list. I bet those guys would love to know what Eldon knows about > PRR > gons! That's an excellent idea, Andrew! And each issue should have one concise paragraph stating that it is the "electronic arm" of the Society and point them to the Society's page for membership information. Every little bit helps. Many months ago Al approached me about adding a Society ad banner to the Keystone Crossings random ad banner display program. It's been doing hundreds (sometimes over 1k) impressions a day with many click-throughs. Hopefully some of these click-throughs convert to memberships. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C394C1.F42C5190 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Keystone Modeler

Guys;
Excellent idea flow.  I appreciate all these = efforts to get both PRR modeling and the PRRT&HS out there.

I don't know anything about those sites, although I = really ought to sign up for the steam era list (even if I am a = diesel-era guy, I could learn a lot).  But I am so = computer/net-stupid it isn't funny.  Andy, do you want to give it = a try?  I mean, I assume you have to ask whoever is concerned, and = they have to create a link on their site?  Or am I continuing to = exhibit my stupidity?

And, I really don't know all that much about PRR = gons.  I am serious.  Ian Fischer knows a lot about PRR = gons!  Rich Burg knows more about PRR gons than I could ever hope = to. Jack Consoli embarrasses me with what he knows! I only know a bit = about PRR gon MODELS, which is why I so brazenly stole that slot in the = TKM line-up.

Thanks!  And good work guys!  Keep those = ideas coming.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] =
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 6:09 AM
To: Andrew S. Miller
Cc: PRR-Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeler

On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 08:57  AM, = Andrew S. Miller wrote:

> Perhaps the URL of the latest issue should be = regularly posted to prime
> recruiting ground such as rec.models.railroad, = and the Steam era
> freight
> car list.  I bet those guys would love to = know what Eldon knows about
> PRR
> gons!

That's an excellent idea, Andrew!

And each issue should have one concise paragraph = stating that it is the
"electronic arm" of the Society and point = them to the Society's page
for membership information.

Every little bit helps. Many months ago Al approached = me about adding a
Society ad banner to the Keystone Crossings random = ad banner display
program. It's been doing hundreds (sometimes over = 1k) impressions a day
with many click-throughs. Hopefully some of these = click-throughs
convert to memberships.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C394C1.F42C5190-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hyatt Bearing Covers Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:00:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0451_01C394AE.A6CED8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee, >From the Pocket List of 1Q 1999 Hyatt Bearingh Div general bearing Corp, 44 High St West Nyack NY 10994 914-358-6000 http://www.generalbearing.com Gene Piazza, Mgr. Cust. Svc. Fax: 914-358-7414 Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edmund burbage=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 9:08 AM Subject: [PRR] Hyatt Bearing Covers Does anyone on this circuit know or have an address for a Hyatt Brg = Co.? I need 6 Hyatt Brg Covers 6 11 for a Pullman Car. Any assistance would = be appreciated. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0451_01C394AE.A6CED8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee,
 
From the Pocket List of  1Q=20 1999
 
Hyatt Bearingh Div general bearing = Corp,
44 High St
West Nyack NY 10994
914-358-6000
http://www.generalbearing.com<= /FONT>
 
Gene Piazza, Mgr. Cust. Svc. Fax:=20 914-358-7414
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 edmund=20 burbage
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 = 9:08=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Hyatt Bearing = Covers

Does anyone on this circuit know or have an address for a Hyatt = Brg=20 Co.?
 
I need 6 Hyatt Brg Covers 6 11 for a Pullman Car. Any assistance = would be=20 appreciated.
 
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
=
------=_NextPart_000_0451_01C394AE.A6CED8E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Hyatt Brg Info. Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:50:14 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C394B5.97CD2020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you so very much Greg. Lee Burbage ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C394B5.97CD2020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you so very much Greg.
 
 
Lee Burbage
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C394B5.97CD2020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:59:55 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C394BF.53BAC7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gents, If you want to post the following addresses anywhere please feel free to do so. 1. To view TKM the URL is: http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm 2. Subscribe to TKM just click on line below and send. mailto:the-keystone-modeler-request@lists.keystone-pubs.org?Subject=subs cribe> 3. To join the Society ( it's $37 for a calendar year - four issues of The Keystone, which always comes out on time) here's the e-Store URL: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html If you join now for 2003 you'll get all of the back issues for this year and will need to rejoin in January for 2004, or you can wait until January 2004 and join. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C394BF.53BAC7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Gents,
 
If you want to post the following = addresses=20 anywhere please feel free to do so.
 
1. To view TKM the URL = is:
 
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler= .htm
 
2. Subscribe to TKM just click on = line below=20 and send.
 
mailto:the-keystone-modeler-request@lists.keystone-pubs.o= rg?Subject=3Dsubscribe>
 
3. To join the Society ( = it's $37 for=20 a calendar year - four issues of The Keystone, which always = comes out=20 on time) here's the e-Store URL:
 
http://club-e-sto= res.com/prr/prrths_store.html
 
If=20 you join now for 2003 you'll get all of the back issues for this year = and will=20 need to rejoin in January for 2004, or you can wait until January 2004 = and=20 join.
 
Al
 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C394BF.53BAC7C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Hyatt bearings Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:33:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C394C4.003AA4D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there any chance you could send a similar "kit" to Bruce S.; we all = know how much he likes to "kitbash" passenger cars! Just don't tell him = how much the shipping charges were. Ed B. & Greg M. have THE KIT for = your next campus PRRPro!!!!!!! ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C394C4.003AA4D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there any chance you could send a = similar "kit"=20 to Bruce S.; we all know how much he likes to "kitbash" passenger = cars! =20 Just don't tell him how much the shipping charges were.  Ed B. = & Greg=20 M. have THE KIT for your next campus = PRRPro!!!!!!!
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C394C4.003AA4D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:17:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Project Group - F30A flat car From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-14-67824997 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Good afternoon! Please pardon the multiple postings... I just wanted to let y'all all know that a group of us have decided to work on the PRR F30A-E flatcar as a project, much like Ted Culotta's Virtual Modelers and some of the projects on the RM-Forum. Currently we have people who plan to: 1) "Beautify" the Bowser HO F30A 2) Modify the F30A to an F30D for TrucTrain service 3) Build the Sunshine resin F30A (HO) 4) Scratchbuild an S scale F30A If you've wanted to get in on one of these projects before, but thought it might be beyond your level, this is the perfect chance to get started. The Bowser kit will lend itself to a few simple modifications that will get you hungry for more advanced projects . The point of this group is to stimulate us to build those kits, not that each has to be a contest winning model. In particular, we want to encourage those of you who have thought about modifying a car, but never done so, to join us. The F30A was built in 1934, lasted into Conrail and could be seen nationwide, so modelers of any type (not just SPFs) are welcome to join in the fun! Please join us at the PRR Projects Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-14-67824997 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Good afternoon! Please pardon the multiple postings... I just wanted to let y'all all know that a group of us have decided to work on the PRR F30A-E flatcar as a project, much like Ted Culotta's Virtual Modelers and some of the projects on the RM-Forum. Currently we have people who plan to: 1) "Beautify" the Bowser HO F30A 2) Modify the F30A to an F30D for TrucTrain service 3) Build the Sunshine resin F30A (HO) 4) Scratchbuild an S scale F30A If you've wanted to get in on one of these projects before, but thought it might be beyond your level, this is the perfect chance to get started. The Bowser kit will lend itself to a few simple modifications that will get you hungry for more advanced projects <. The point of this group is to stimulate us to build those kits, not that each has to be a contest winning model. In particular, we want to encourage those of you who have thought about modifying a car, but never done so, to join us. The F30A was built in 1934, lasted into Conrail and could be seen nationwide, so modelers of any type (not just SPFs) are welcome to join in the fun! Please join us at the PRR Projects Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-14-67824997-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Hpallesen" Subject: Re: [PRR] York meet Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:25:45 +0200 0-Scale FM Erie-Built PRR with antennas A-B-B-A new model from ATLAS 0 to be shown in YORK ! Estimated Delivery February 2004, comes as: 2-Rail with TMCC (Sound, "Electro-Kadees", etc.) and 2-Rail DC/DCC Ready and 3-Rail TMCC Regards HUGO, the Dane from Reims, France ! ----- Orig-Railinal Message ----- From: "Bill" To: Cc: "Joseph Andrews" Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] York meet > Joseph Andrews wrote: > > > > If the "York meet" that's being referrred to is the > > TCA event, then I think you should know that it's not > > your typical train show. The "T" stands for "train" > > and "C" stands for "collector". It is entirely geared > > to train collectors as opposed to modelers and mostly > > (but not all) larger scales and tinplate. You'll find > > little or no memorabilia other than that directly > > related to toy trains. Attendence is limited to > > members of TCA and guests who may attend only ONCE as > > a guest in their entire lifetime. They take over the > > ENTIRE fairgrounds including the meat cases. It is > > worth seeing once even if you're not into collecting. > > $5000 locomotives are as common there as $250 locos > > are at shows like Timonium and I guarantee you'll > > leave without coming close to seeing it all. So, if > > you know a member who'll sponser you as a guest, I > > highly recommend it. > > Joe > > All, > > Couple of heads-ups. > > 1. The new Orange Hall (don't know if the orange matches Lionel's) is > now open; it's the size of 4 football fields and is air conditioned. > The old meat locker halls (yellow and gold) will no longer be used along > with a couple of others. Who knows, if the economy grows, they might > have to re-open those halls. > > 2. I've found several good dealers there who do not deal in O Gauge > exclusively. Certain gentleman by the name of Alvin Staufer comes to > the show and shows books that he's written on... (hmm, now let's see, > what's the name of that railroad? Starts with a 'D'? No no no, starts > with a...) that's right, the Pennsylvania Railroad! :) > > 3. And as Joe says, if you haven't been there and can get to see it, by > all means do so. I went when I was still into HO and was smitten once > again with the ozone smell from my childhhod. > > Bill Morlitz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:50:42 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". In a message dated 10/17/03 9:27:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer lettering phases, GN and PFE > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:30:27 -0400 > > On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:32 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? > > > > > > I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2. FGE was > > using similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952, > > and probably long before. > > Rick, Gregg Mahlkov had previously provided the following: > > "According to the information in Russ Clover's dry transfer catalog, > the FGE 'VENTILATOR' and 'REFRIGERATOR' stacked was used through 1959. > The Sans Serif 'REFRIGERATOR' was used after 1959, although some cars > were marked 'FHIX' and 'REFRIGERATOR' beginning in 1949." > > Since you weren't sure of your data, and Gregg alludes to some > following your scheme (FHIX), any reason to dispute the above? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Jerry, In a word, "yes". There is reason to dispute the above. One of the problems with the inductive reasoning I use (looking at a series of photos) is that you can develop rules/ideas that are incorrect. That might have happened to me. OTOH, I have no idea who furnished the info to Clover House. I can say that I work pretty hard at this stuff, and I find much that's printed about lettering phases, even by some authorities I really respect, turns out to be contradicted by the pictures I index and classify by lettering phase. That's why I invited others to chime in -- there are EXPERTS out there on this subject. Unfortunately, they're probably on the Steam Era Freight Car list. Meantime, from a large sample of pictures (virtually all 1952 or later): 1. the FHIX is probably a specialty car of some kind; most FGE ice reefers carried FGEX into the Seventies (I saw and photographed them). True, FGE used a variety of reporting marks besides FGEX for reefers. Some of these indicate equipment, some a pool operated by FGE, some who knows... A partial list: FGCX (mechanical refrigerators), FGEX (the mass of cars), FHIX (I found one 1957 photo), FOBX (overhead ice bunkers), MNX (National Car Co). Also WFBX, WFCX, WFEX, WFMX, WHIX, which are Western Fruit Express reporting marks under FGE's operating contract. 2. I have NO FGE photos (out of 108 or so) that say VENTILATED AND REFRIGERATED in 1952 or later. 3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice. By 1952 (and your 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene). Two more observations: 1. If we're trying fairly hard to be prototypically correct, the first place to go is the ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) for our period, and check reporting marks (and numbers). If FGEX outnumbers all other reporting marks assigned to FGE (and it will), then FGEX is what you want visible on the layout. 2. The second place to go is pictures. Decal such variants as FHIX only with a picture -- that insures you don't create something that didn't exist in nature. Oh yes -- and NEVER trust a decal sheet's drawing -- even from the good guys. Get a picture. As we know, Fruit Growers Express was owned by the Pennsy and a large list of other railroads. As such, it's our "home road" reefer company, and logically handled produce originated on our line (as well as on most eastern and southeastern lines). And like the Pennsy, FGE was conservative in their markings, using roughly the same "Block Gothic" lettering style over a very long time period, even though details evolved through half a dozen minor phases between 1948 and 1975. Bottom line, Jerry -- I may be wrong about some of this. I may be late by a year here and there. But "evidence" from decal sheets won't convince me -- I've learned better from bitter experience. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:50:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". --part1_4d.363c6e9f.2cc1b022_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/17/03 9:27:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer lettering phases, GN and PFE > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:30:27 -0400 > > On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:32 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? > > > > > > I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2. FGE was > > using similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952, > > and probably long before. > > Rick, Gregg Mahlkov had previously provided the following: > > "According to the information in Russ Clover's dry transfer catalog, > the FGE 'VENTILATOR' and 'REFRIGERATOR' stacked was used through 1959. > The Sans Serif 'REFRIGERATOR' was used after 1959, although some cars > were marked 'FHIX' and 'REFRIGERATOR' beginning in 1949." > > Since you weren't sure of your data, and Gregg alludes to some > following your scheme (FHIX), any reason to dispute the above? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Jerry, In a word, "yes". There is reason to dispute the above. One of the problems with the inductive reasoning I use (looking at a series of photos) is that you can develop rules/ideas that are incorrect. That might have happened to me. OTOH, I have no idea who furnished the info to Clover House. I can say that I work pretty hard at this stuff, and I find much that's printed about lettering phases, even by some authorities I really respect, turns out to be contradicted by the pictures I index and classify by lettering phase. That's why I invited others to chime in -- there are EXPERTS out there on this subject. Unfortunately, they're probably on the Steam Era Freight Car list. Meantime, from a large sample of pictures (virtually all 1952 or later): 1. the FHIX is probably a specialty car of some kind; most FGE ice reefers carried FGEX into the Seventies (I saw and photographed them). True, FGE used a variety of reporting marks besides FGEX for reefers. Some of these indicate equipment, some a pool operated by FGE, some who knows... A partial list: FGCX (mechanical refrigerators), FGEX (the mass of cars), FHIX (I found one 1957 photo), FOBX (overhead ice bunkers), MNX (National Car Co). Also WFBX, WFCX, WFEX, WFMX, WHIX, which are Western Fruit Express reporting marks under FGE's operating contract. 2. I have NO FGE photos (out of 108 or so) that say VENTILATED AND REFRIGERATED in 1952 or later. 3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice. By 1952 (and your 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene). Two more observations: 1. If we're trying fairly hard to be prototypically correct, the first place to go is the ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) for our period, and check reporting marks (and numbers). If FGEX outnumbers all other reporting marks assigned to FGE (and it will), then FGEX is what you want visible on the layout. 2. The second place to go is pictures. Decal such variants as FHIX only with a picture -- that insures you don't create something that didn't exist in nature. Oh yes -- and NEVER trust a decal sheet's drawing -- even from the good guys. Get a picture. As we know, Fruit Growers Express was owned by the Pennsy and a large list of other railroads. As such, it's our "home road" reefer company, and logically handled produce originated on our line (as well as on most eastern and southeastern lines). And like the Pennsy, FGE was conservative in their markings, using roughly the same "Block Gothic" lettering style over a very long time period, even though details evolved through half a dozen minor phases between 1948 and 1975. Bottom line, Jerry -- I may be wrong about some of this. I may be late by a year here and there. But "evidence" from decal sheets won't convince me -- I've learned better from bitter experience. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_4d.363c6e9f.2cc1b022_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/17/03 9:27:21 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer lette= ring phases, GN and PFE
From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:30:27 -0400

On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:32  AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote:
> At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated and > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door?
>
>
> I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2.  FGE=20= was
> using similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952, <= BR> > and probably long before.

Rick, Gregg Mahlkov had previously provided the following:

"According to the information in Russ Clover's dry transfer catalog,
the FGE 'VENTILATOR' and 'REFRIGERATOR' stacked was used through 1959.
The Sans Serif 'REFRIGERATOR' was used after 1959, although some cars
were marked 'FHIX' and 'REFRIGERATOR' beginning in 1949."

Since you weren't sure of your data, and Gregg alludes to some
following your scheme (FHIX), any reason to dispute the above?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyr= r.com


Jerry,

In a word, "yes".  There is reason to dispute the above.

One of the problems with the inductive reasoning I use (looking at a series=20= of photos) is that you can develop rules/ideas that are incorrect.  Tha= t might have happened to me.  OTOH, I have no idea who furnished the in= fo to Clover House. 

I can say that I work pretty hard at this stuff, and I find much that's prin= ted about lettering phases, even by some authorities I really respect, turns= out to be contradicted by the pictures I index and classify by lettering ph= ase.

That's why I invited others to chime in -- there are EXPERTS out there on th= is subject.  Unfortunately, they're probably on the Steam Era Freight C= ar list.

Meantime, from a large sample of pictures (virtually all 1952 or later):
1. the FHIX is probably a specialty car of some kind; most FGE ice reefers c= arried FGEX into the Seventies (I saw and photographed them).  True, FG= E used a variety of reporting marks besides FGEX for reefers.  Some of=20= these indicate equipment, some a pool operated by FGE, some who knows... A p= artial list: FGCX (mechanical refrigerators), FGEX (the mass of cars), FHIX=20= (I found one 1957 photo), FOBX (overhead ice bunkers), MNX (National Car Co)= .  Also WFBX, WFCX, WFEX, WFMX, WHIX, which are Western Fruit Express r= eporting marks under FGE's operating contract.
2. I have NO FGE photos (out of 108 or so) that say VENTILATED AND REFRIGERA= TED in 1952 or later.
3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car Builders Cy= clopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I think you will see=20= a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a pre-WW2 (if not pre-depres= sion) lettering practice.  By 1952 (and your 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR i= s the common practice (supplemented by MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they cam= e on the scene).

Two more observations:
1.  If we're trying fairly hard to be prototypically correct, the first= place to go is the ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) for our perio= d, and check reporting marks (and numbers).  If FGEX outnumbers all oth= er reporting marks assigned to FGE (and it will), then FGEX is what you want= visible on the layout. 
2.  The second place to go is pictures.  Decal such variants as FH= IX only with a picture -- that insures you don't create something that didn'= t exist in nature.  Oh yes -- and NEVER trust a decal sheet's drawing -= - even from the good guys.  Get a picture.

As we know, Fruit Growers Express was owned by the Pennsy and a large list o= f other railroads.  As such, it's our "home road" reefer company, and l= ogically handled produce originated on our line (as well as on most eastern=20= and southeastern lines).  And like the Pennsy, FGE was conservative in=20= their markings, using roughly the same "Block Gothic" lettering style over a= very long time period, even though details evolved through half a dozen min= or phases between 1948 and 1975.

Bottom line, Jerry -- I may be wrong about some of this.  I may be late= by a year here and there.  But "evidence" from decal sheets won't conv= ince me -- I've learned better from bitter experience.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_4d.363c6e9f.2cc1b022_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:37:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C394CD.0042A500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car = Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I = think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a = pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice. By 1952 (and your = 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by = MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene). I haven't dug out all my Cyclopedias in storage, but what I do have = doesn't show the exact phrase "Ventilated and Refrigerated" in any = pictures. Doesn't mean it didn't exist: I am just confused because I = have no photos that show it. As I pointed out to Jerry, the photo in = the Great Yellow Fleet by John H White of PFE's second paint scheme in = 1911 shows "Ventilated" and "Refrigerator" stacked. In the 20's and = 30's, "Ventilated Refrigerator" on one line. Late 30's and through the = 40's , back to stacked individual words. FGEX seems to have used Ventilator & Refrigerator and Ventilated = Refrigerator, but I don't have any dates on photos I have access to. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C394CD.0042A500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) = in, say,=20 the Car Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and = 1953, I=20 think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a = pre-WW2=20 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice.  By 1952 (and your = 1954=20 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by MECHANICAL = REFRIGERATOR when they came on the = scene).
I haven't dug out all my Cyclopedias in storage, = but what I=20 do have doesn't show the exact phrase "Ventilated and Refrigerated" in = any=20 pictures.  Doesn't mean it didn't exist: I am just confused because = I have=20 no photos that show it.  As I pointed out to Jerry, the photo in = the Great=20 Yellow Fleet by John H White of PFE's second paint scheme in 1911 shows=20 "Ventilated" and "Refrigerator" stacked.  In the 20's and 30's, = "Ventilated=20 Refrigerator" on one line.  Late 30's and through the 40's , back = to=20 stacked individual words.
 
FGEX seems to have used Ventilator & = Refrigerator and=20  Ventilated Refrigerator, but I don't have any dates on photos I = have=20 access to.
 
Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C394CD.0042A500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baggage vs Baggage Express Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:16:01 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Talasco" > So, here is what I have been advised: > > Baggage Cars: held simple passenger baggage > > Baggage Express Cars: held express baggage, and > possibly passenger baggage. Could also be locked mail > unsorted mail cars. > > Express Messenger Cars: Held express baggage, and had > an office and hopper for an Express messenger who rode > in the car. > > Now the final part: > > Were the cars lettered as follows? > > Baggage: PENNSYLVANIA, and car # > > Baggage Express: As above, but with the addition of > "Railway Express Agency" > > Express messenger: As above, but with the gold star? Fred, to put it simply, a B60 is a B60 is a B60 for baggage, express, or mail storage purposes. Never say never, but all of the above would be lettered, depending on era, with Pensnsylvania on the letterboard, a number and "Railway Express Agency" Express messenger would have the gold star added, to indicate the messenger's presence, both for business purposes and some have indicated to find which car held personnel in the event of an accident. It would have a stove, desk,and hopper as others have indicated. As an aside on the messenger cars, I've just been reading a bunch of old James Thurber books I picked up at a used book shop. In one of his tales of the continuing battle of the sexes, the couple is arguing over finding the messenger car of the New York Central from the area of the puppy farm where they have ordered a dog. Another idea of the traffic that went by express and, being live, I guess it would have to go in the messenger car. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:34:15 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C394DD.44B67F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry & Rick, On Page 222 of Steel Rails to the Sunrise there is a photo of a PRR L1s = on the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR taken in Sept 1945, there are three = FGE reefers visible behind it. All three have 'VENTILATOR AND = REFRIGERATOR" on three lines to the right of the door. On Page 90 of = Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940 - 1950's , there is a photo of another = L1s leaving Capa Charles, Va with an FGE reefer immediately behind it. = The photo is undated, but the color rendition is excellent, so I'd say = it was taken post-1950.. Again, the lettering says 'VENTILATOR AND = REFRIGERATOR" on three lines. I still maintain that many of the wooden FGE cars would still have this = lettering in 1954. Grefgg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com ; PRR@egroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 4:50 PM Subject: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". In a message dated 10/17/03 9:27:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer lettering phases, GN and PFE From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:30:27 -0400 On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 07:32 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > At approximately what year did the PFE add the words "Ventilated = and > Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the door? > > > I can't place this one, but believe it is well prior to WW2. FGE = was=20 > using similar language in 1929, but it was REFRIGERATOR only in = 1952,=20 > and probably long before. Rick, Gregg Mahlkov had previously provided the following: "According to the information in Russ Clover's dry transfer catalog, = the FGE 'VENTILATOR' and 'REFRIGERATOR' stacked was used through = 1959.=20 The Sans Serif 'REFRIGERATOR' was used after 1959, although some = cars=20 were marked 'FHIX' and 'REFRIGERATOR' beginning in 1949." Since you weren't sure of your data, and Gregg alludes to some=20 following your scheme (FHIX), any reason to dispute the above? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Jerry, In a word, "yes". There is reason to dispute the above. One of the problems with the inductive reasoning I use (looking at a = series of photos) is that you can develop rules/ideas that are = incorrect. That might have happened to me. OTOH, I have no idea who = furnished the info to Clover House. =20 I can say that I work pretty hard at this stuff, and I find much = that's printed about lettering phases, even by some authorities I really = respect, turns out to be contradicted by the pictures I index and = classify by lettering phase. That's why I invited others to chime in -- there are EXPERTS out there = on this subject. Unfortunately, they're probably on the Steam Era = Freight Car list.=20 Meantime, from a large sample of pictures (virtually all 1952 or = later): 1. the FHIX is probably a specialty car of some kind; most FGE ice = reefers carried FGEX into the Seventies (I saw and photographed them). = True, FGE used a variety of reporting marks besides FGEX for reefers. = Some of these indicate equipment, some a pool operated by FGE, some who = knows... A partial list: FGCX (mechanical refrigerators), FGEX (the mass = of cars), FHIX (I found one 1957 photo), FOBX (overhead ice bunkers), = MNX (National Car Co). Also WFBX, WFCX, WFEX, WFMX, WHIX, which are = Western Fruit Express reporting marks under FGE's operating contract. 2. I have NO FGE photos (out of 108 or so) that say VENTILATED AND = REFRIGERATED in 1952 or later. 3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car = Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I = think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a = pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice. By 1952 (and your = 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by = MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene). Two more observations: 1. If we're trying fairly hard to be prototypically correct, the = first place to go is the ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) for = our period, and check reporting marks (and numbers). If FGEX outnumbers = all other reporting marks assigned to FGE (and it will), then FGEX is = what you want visible on the layout. =20 2. The second place to go is pictures. Decal such variants as FHIX = only with a picture -- that insures you don't create something that = didn't exist in nature. Oh yes -- and NEVER trust a decal sheet's = drawing -- even from the good guys. Get a picture. As we know, Fruit Growers Express was owned by the Pennsy and a large = list of other railroads. As such, it's our "home road" reefer company, = and logically handled produce originated on our line (as well as on most = eastern and southeastern lines). And like the Pennsy, FGE was = conservative in their markings, using roughly the same "Block Gothic" = lettering style over a very long time period, even though details = evolved through half a dozen minor phases between 1948 and 1975. Bottom line, Jerry -- I may be wrong about some of this. I may be = late by a year here and there. But "evidence" from decal sheets won't = convince me -- I've learned better from bitter experience. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C394DD.44B67F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry & Rick,
 
On Page 222 of Steel Rails to the Sunrise = there is a=20 photo of a PRR L1s on the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR taken in Sept = 1945, there=20 are three FGE reefers visible behind it. All three have 'VENTILATOR AND=20 REFRIGERATOR" on three lines to the right of the door. On Page 90 of=20 Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940 - 1950's ,  there is = a photo=20 of another L1s leaving Capa Charles, Va with an FGE reefer immediately = behind=20 it. The photo is undated, but the color rendition is excellent, so I'd = say it=20 was taken post-1950.. Again, the lettering says 'VENTILATOR AND = REFRIGERATOR" on=20 three lines.
 
I still maintain that many of the wooden FGE cars = would still=20 have this lettering in 1954.
 
Grefgg Mahlkov
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com = ; PRR@egroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 = 4:50=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] More on FGE = lettering=20 phases. Two types of "evidence".

In a message dated 10/17/03 9:27:21 AM Eastern = Daylight=20 Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer lettering phases, GN and = PFE
From:=20 "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: = Fri, 17=20 Oct 2003 08:30:27 -0400

On Friday, October 17, 2003, at = 07:32 =20 AM, RickTipton@aol.com=20 wrote:

> At approximately what year did the PFE add the = words=20 "Ventilated and
> Refrigerated" stacked to the right of the=20 door?
>
>
> I can't place this one, but believe it = is well=20 prior to WW2.  FGE was
> using similar language in 1929, = but it=20 was REFRIGERATOR only in 1952,
> and probably long=20 before.

Rick, Gregg Mahlkov had previously provided the=20 following:

"According to the information in Russ Clover's dry = transfer catalog,
the FGE 'VENTILATOR' and 'REFRIGERATOR' = stacked was=20 used through 1959.
The Sans Serif 'REFRIGERATOR' was used after = 1959,=20 although some cars
were marked 'FHIX' and 'REFRIGERATOR' = beginning in=20 1949."

Since you weren't sure of your data, and Gregg alludes = to some=20
following your scheme (FHIX), any reason to dispute the=20 = above?
-----------------------------------------------------------
= Jerry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS  =20 jerry@pennsyrr.com

Jerry,

In a word, = "yes". =20 There is reason to dispute the above.

One of the problems with = the=20 inductive reasoning I use (looking at a series of photos) is that you = can=20 develop rules/ideas that are incorrect.  That might have happened = to=20 me.  OTOH, I have no idea who furnished the info to Clover = House. =20

I can say that I work pretty hard at this stuff, and I find = much=20 that's printed about lettering phases, even by some authorities I = really=20 respect, turns out to be contradicted by the pictures I index and = classify by=20 lettering phase.

That's why I invited others to chime in -- = there are=20 EXPERTS out there on this subject.  Unfortunately, they're = probably on=20 the Steam Era Freight Car list.

Meantime, from a large sample = of=20 pictures (virtually all 1952 or later):
1. the FHIX is probably a = specialty=20 car of some kind; most FGE ice reefers carried FGEX into the Seventies = (I saw=20 and photographed them).  True, FGE used a variety of reporting = marks=20 besides FGEX for reefers.  Some of these indicate equipment, some = a pool=20 operated by FGE, some who knows... A partial list: FGCX (mechanical=20 refrigerators), FGEX (the mass of cars), FHIX (I found one 1957 = photo), FOBX=20 (overhead ice bunkers), MNX (National Car Co).  Also WFBX, WFCX, = WFEX,=20 WFMX, WHIX, which are Western Fruit Express reporting marks under = FGE's=20 operating contract.
2. I have NO FGE photos (out of 108 or so) that = say=20 VENTILATED AND REFRIGERATED in 1952 or later.
3. If you examine all = reefer=20 pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, = 1925,=20 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I think you will see a pattern that = "Ventilated=20 and Refrigerated" is a pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering=20 practice.  By 1952 (and your 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the = common=20 practice (supplemented by MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on = the=20 scene).

Two more observations:
1.  If we're trying = fairly hard=20 to be prototypically correct, the first place to go is the ORER = (Official=20 Railway Equipment Register) for our period, and check reporting marks = (and=20 numbers).  If FGEX outnumbers all other reporting marks assigned = to FGE=20 (and it will), then FGEX is what you want visible on the layout.  =
2.  The second place to go is pictures.  Decal such = variants as=20 FHIX only with a picture -- that insures you don't create something = that=20 didn't exist in nature.  Oh yes -- and NEVER trust a decal = sheet's=20 drawing -- even from the good guys.  Get a picture.

As we = know,=20 Fruit Growers Express was owned by the Pennsy and a large list of = other=20 railroads.  As such, it's our "home road" reefer company, and = logically=20 handled produce originated on our line (as well as on most eastern and = southeastern lines).  And like the Pennsy, FGE was conservative = in their=20 markings, using roughly the same "Block Gothic" lettering style over a = very=20 long time period, even though details evolved through half a dozen = minor=20 phases between 1948 and 1975.

Bottom line, Jerry -- I may be = wrong=20 about some of this.  I may be late by a year here and = there.  But=20 "evidence" from decal sheets won't convince me -- I've learned better = from=20 bitter experience.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad and especially PRR Lines West = ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C394DD.44B67F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Day" Subject: [PRR] N8 Vintage Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:01:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C394F1.C9518D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellow SPF's, Just wondering what the vintage was on N8 cabins. Looking at a couple = on eBay and wondered when they were built and introduced on the PRR. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C394F1.C9518D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fellow SPF's,
 
Just wondering what the vintage was on = N8=20 cabins.  Looking at a couple on eBay and wondered when they were = built and=20 introduced on the PRR.
 
Doug
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C394F1.C9518D20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:40:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Armstrong Levers --part1_1ee.11af161b.2cc1f402_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Ditto the favorable review in Model Railroading that is mentioned in the Keystone. We installed these at each end of the passenger yard on an HO scale layout and they work perfectly. The only caution is to protect them if they are mounted on the facia board as shown on the web site, otherwise - even though they are very sturdy, "Hippo Hips" the pass. yard hogger will wipe them out. Actually, two cautions, visiting modelers will have to "play" with them to get their time in as towermen. We made shields for them from pieces of 1" x 3" pine board with rounded ends and mounted them directly beneath the line of Armstrong levers. Hippo Hips is now complaining about his bruised hips --- told him he needs to get acquainted with Dr. Atkins. Yes, our Tuesday night round robin groups is a very sensitive and caring crew. www.humpyard.com Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1ee.11af161b.2cc1f402_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR List,

  Ditto the favorable review in Model Railroading that is mentioned in=20= the Keystone.  We installed these at each end of the passenger yard on=20= an HO scale layout and they work perfectly.  The only caution is to pro= tect them if they are mounted on the facia board as shown on the web site, o= therwise - even though they are very sturdy, "Hippo Hips" the pass. yard hog= ger will wipe them out.  Actually, two cautions, visiting modelers will= have to "play" with them to get their time in as towermen. 

  We made shields for them from pieces of 1" x 3" pine board with round= ed ends and mounted them directly beneath the line of Armstrong levers. = ; Hippo Hips is now complaining about his bruised hips --- told him he needs= to get acquainted with Dr. Atkins.  Yes, our Tuesday night round robin= groups is a very sensitive and caring crew.  <G>

www.humpyard.com


Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036

 --part1_1ee.11af161b.2cc1f402_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:52:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Photo of B60 Messenger Car Needed. Chuck Blardone is looking to borrow (overnight) photos of the inside of a Messenger (=98) class B60. They're needed by someone doing a restoration. Contact him direct at blardone@redrose.net =20 Thanx. =20 Al [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=3D5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remember= ing Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to =3D PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Photo of B60 Messenger Car Needed. Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:52:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C394F9.00BB5370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck Blardone is looking to borrow (overnight) photos of the inside of a Messenger (=98) class B60. They're needed by someone doing a restoration. Contact him direct at blardone@redrose.net =20 Thanx. =20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C394F9.00BB5370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Chuck Blardone is looking to borrow = (overnight) photos=20 of the inside of a Messenger (˜) class B60. =20 They're needed by someone doing a restoration. Contact him direct = at blardone@redrose.net

 

Thanx.

 

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C394F9.00BB5370-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:04:41 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] York meet Hpallesen wrote: > > 0-Scale FM Erie-Built PRR with antennas A-B-B-A new model from ATLAS 0 to be > shown in YORK ! Estimated Delivery February 2004, comes as: > 2-Rail with TMCC (Sound, "Electro-Kadees", etc.) and > 2-Rail DC/DCC Ready and > 3-Rail TMCC > Regards HUGO, the Dane from Reims, France ! Hugo, I just got back from York and was happy to see all the O Scale 2 rail Atlas will be producing. The FM Erie Builds are beautiful and will have Radiophone Induction on top. Their new freight car releases are also well done with H21a hoppers due next year in 12 different road numbers! The Atlas roundhouse is also beautifully done with metal trusses and the shipping package weighs 16 pounds! Jim Weaver, Dick Maddox and the rest of the Atlas crew are to be congratulated. IMHO, the Orange Hall layout has to be re-done. The aisles are not continuous 'north/south' and the traffic flow is very uneven. Placing all the manufacturers on the 'north' side only complicated matters as people trying to turn around at the 'north' end found it almost impossible. Bill > > ----- Orig-Railinal Message ----- > From: "Bill" > To: > Cc: "Joseph Andrews" > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:08 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] York meet > > > Joseph Andrews wrote: > > > > > > If the "York meet" that's being referrred to is the > > > TCA event, then I think you should know that it's not > > > your typical train show. The "T" stands for "train" > > > and "C" stands for "collector". It is entirely geared > > > to train collectors as opposed to modelers and mostly > > > (but not all) larger scales and tinplate. You'll find > > > little or no memorabilia other than that directly > > > related to toy trains. Attendence is limited to > > > members of TCA and guests who may attend only ONCE as > > > a guest in their entire lifetime. They take over the > > > ENTIRE fairgrounds including the meat cases. It is > > > worth seeing once even if you're not into collecting. > > > $5000 locomotives are as common there as $250 locos > > > are at shows like Timonium and I guarantee you'll > > > leave without coming close to seeing it all. So, if > > > you know a member who'll sponser you as a guest, I > > > highly recommend it. > > > Joe > > > > All, > > > > Couple of heads-ups. > > > > 1. The new Orange Hall (don't know if the orange matches Lionel's) is > > now open; it's the size of 4 football fields and is air conditioned. > > The old meat locker halls (yellow and gold) will no longer be used along > > with a couple of others. Who knows, if the economy grows, they might > > have to re-open those halls. > > > > 2. I've found several good dealers there who do not deal in O Gauge > > exclusively. Certain gentleman by the name of Alvin Staufer comes to > > the show and shows books that he's written on... (hmm, now let's see, > > what's the name of that railroad? Starts with a 'D'? No no no, starts > > with a...) that's right, the Pennsylvania Railroad! :) > > > > 3. And as Joe says, if you haven't been there and can get to see it, by > > all means do so. I went when I was still into HO and was smitten once > > again with the ozone smell from my childhhod. > > > > Bill Morlitz > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:26:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] M70 postal with baggage for depression era Broadway Limited Hello Everyone, Sorry to be such a question box, but I have been working on this issue for some time and have yet to locate any conclusive information. On p24 of the Rosenbaum and Gallo book "The Broadway Limited" it is mentioned that in 1932, the PRR dropped the Pullman Baggage Club cars, and rebuilt several RPOs with a 10' foot baggage area. I have been trying to locate a set of plans, or a photo of these cars as I model circa 1937, but have not been able to do so. The closest I have come is the photo #14 (page 19) of "The PRR Passenger Car Painting and Lettering Guide" that shows a 1939 photo of RPO car # 5236 with a baggage door on one end. I am not sure if this is one of the cars converted in the early 1930's, but this car # does not appear in Jerry Briton's searchable database. Does anyone have any more info on these cars, or a lead for me to find a plan/photo? I reaslize that I will probably need to scratchbuild or at least bash sides for this car, but I want to take a crack at it. Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Weinschenker" Subject: [PRR] Waynesburg & Washington Book Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:46:34 -0400 Greetings- My new book on the Waynesburg & Washington Railroad hit the streets today. I currently have the soft covers in my possession and will have the hardbacks by the end of the month. The limited edition, signed and numbered hardback volumes are pre-selling very quickly, so please contact me off list if you wish to be placed on the waitlist. The soft covers retail for $33 and the hardbacks for $55. Both prices include shipping to your home. I am sending an edition to Bob Brubaker of PRRTHS so that he may review the book for The Keystone magazine. Thank you. JIM Jim Weinschenker 775 Race Street Waynesburg, PA 15370 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Vintage Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:05:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3954E.9519F580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that most were built in the 1950/1951 time period. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Day To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, October 17, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: [PRR] N8 Vintage Fellow SPF's, Just wondering what the vintage was on N8 cabins. Looking at a couple = on eBay and wondered when they were built and introduced on the PRR. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3954E.9519F580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe that most were built in the 1950/1951 time = period.
 
Frank Brua
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Douglas Day <dougday1951@comcast.net>To:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Friday, October 17, 2003 9:09 PM
Subject: [PRR] N8=20 Vintage

Fellow SPF's,
 
Just wondering what the vintage was = on N8=20 cabins.  Looking at a couple on eBay and wondered when they were = built=20 and introduced on the PRR.
 
Doug
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3954E.9519F580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:35:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 17, 2003, at 06:34 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > I still maintain that many of the wooden FGE cars would still have > this lettering in 1954. Like any paint scheme, the cars weren't all repainted overnight. Maybe I should clarify that on the reefer page...the dates I am giving are for new paint jobs. Previous schemes would last many years into newer schemes time frames. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Georgetown Delaware info Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:42:40 +0000 ON Saturday Nov. 8 I have to visit my In-laws for the day in Georgetown Delaware. Is there anything in the area I should make the effort to see related to the PRR? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:36:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: M70 postal with baggage for depression era Broadway There are an elevation and a floor plan in Wayner's Pennsylvania RailroadPassenger and Freight Car Diagrams (1981), page 2, of M70B RPO with baggage compartment, roadnumbers 6529 and 8616. Rob Schoenberg's website also has this tracing on-line. Go to http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=m70b_bagg.gif&sel=rpo&sz =sm&fr= Hope this helps. Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Humpyyard.com turnout controls Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:10:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0590_01C3965B.83755140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR Listers: Last week or so, someone on PRR-Talk list mentioned the following = company and the turnout controls. Here is their website: http://www.humpyard.com/ My question is, has anyone tried them? Do they work well? Are they worth = the money asked? I have a layout with Micro Engineering turnouts that = have a stiff point assembly (spring loaded).=20 At the surface, this type of control has the advantages of cost and = simplicity. It can be also prototypical if you are modeling an = interlocking like I am.=20 Another advantage is the one lever can control the two turnouts of a = crossover. Correct me if I am wrong, but would not two motors (Tortoise = drive) be needed to electrically operate a crossover? Has anyone done a = crossover with just one Tortoise drive? =20 Thank you in advance for any information that you can provide me.=20 If one has had any experiences with these Humpyard controls, I am = considering of buying a few, see how they work on my layout, and give = all of you a report card on this new product. Ted Andrews ------=_NextPart_000_0590_01C3965B.83755140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR Listers:
 
Last week or so, someone on PRR-Talk list mentioned the following = company=20 and the turnout controls. Here is their website:
 
 
My question is, has anyone tried them? Do they work well? Are they = worth=20 the money asked? I have a layout with Micro Engineering turnouts that = have a=20 stiff point assembly (spring loaded).
 
At the surface, this type of control has the advantages = of cost=20 and simplicity. It can be also prototypical if you are modeling=20 an interlocking like I am.
 
Another advantage is the one lever can control the two = turnouts=20 of a crossover. Correct me if I am wrong, but would=20 not two motors (Tortoise drive) be needed to=20 electrically operate a crossover? Has anyone done a crossover = with=20 just one Tortoise drive?  
 
Thank you in advance for any information that you can provide me. =
 
If one has had any experiences with these Humpyard controls, I am=20 considering of buying a few, see how they work on my layout, and give = all of you=20 a report card on this new product.
 
 
Ted Andrews
------=_NextPart_000_0590_01C3965B.83755140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:29:43 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Division Post Hello List, Someone attached a picture or gave a reference to a site in an email that showed a Division post that had the attached pole that also showed the two different sub-divisions. Could someone please resend that to me as I would like to save that picture for future reference. I must have deleted it by mistake after viewing it. Thank you. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:29:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Division Post --part1_c9.38fac94b.2cc46a57_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List, Someone attached a picture or gave a reference to a site in an email that showed a Division post that had the attached pole that also showed the two different sub-divisions. Could someone please resend that to me as I would like to save that picture for future reference. I must have deleted it by mistake after viewing it. Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_c9.38fac94b.2cc46a57_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello List,
             Som= eone attached a picture or gave a reference to a site in an email that showe= d a Division post that had the attached pole that also showed the two differ= ent sub-divisions. Could someone please resend that to me as I would like to= save that picture for future reference. I must have deleted it by mistake a= fter viewing it.
Thank you.

Pat McKinney --part1_c9.38fac94b.2cc46a57_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:30:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Humpyyard.com turnout controls Just a few comments on Ted's post re the "Hump Yard Purveyance" turnout levers. At first blush, this seems to be a variation on the time-honored "choke cable control" method for operating turnouts. (Manual chokes are something cars used to have, Sonny.) I haven't been able to get pages other than the home page (www.humpyard.com) to load, but I imagine there is some kind of positive locking action built into the levers. The site mentions that there is plenty of force to hold the points against the stock rails for power routing, but also an electrical switch is provided. (Side comment: I don't like to have the power routed by the points; reliablity aside, that means that an open point is of opposite polarity from the stock rail, and if the clearance is small to appear prototypical, this raises short circuit possibilities -- especially troublesome with DCC with its fast-acting- shutdown "boosters.") Ted notes that these levers are useful for interlockings; well yes, they look kinda like "Armstrong" interlocking levers, umm, but they don't interlock, that is, there is no way (I imagine) to stop them from moving if the operator tries to set up a conflicting route. (Side comment: many years ago MR ran a series on building a really "interlocked" model interlocking frame, I suspect this was by Gordon Odegard himself. This goes back to the late sixties at least. It was a jewel of sliding brass locking bars and interlocking pins, called "dogs" in the trade I believe.) As for operating both turnouts in a crossover from one mechanism, I have no experience with Tortoise machines but I did do this once with a rotary relay (I have a couple dozen of these old war surplus gems, they are really rugged). It may be doable with a Tortoise as well, but might also be more trouble than it's worth. Side question: do prototype crossover turnouts always move together? On an Armstrong machine, would it be possible to have just a single lever? I'd say it's unlikely with pipe rodding. (And didn't they have two mechanisms per turnout, to move the points and to lock them? Each pipe-connected switch always seems to have two rods to it, one to throw and one to lock I assume, does that mean two levers in the interlocking machine?) In a frenzy of trackbuilding, I once built a No. 8 double slip switch (in HO) with movable center points (a buddy who is a railway engineering professional insists these are called "knuckle rails" in his shop, but we agreed to disagree on the terminology, anyway he gets no vote since he models in 1:1 scale, ha-ha!). This has a total of six sets of points, and I forget how many switch machines I ended up using, but it was probably three, with lots of complicated linkages. (The beast sits in the corner of the basement waiting for an application to appear on the current layout . . .) John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:40:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? I hadn't seen this mentioned on the list. "The financially troubled Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is considering a proposal to set up a microbrewery and restaurant. The thought is that by charging rent, taking a percentage of sales or both, the museum could help keep an auxiliary building from foreclosure as collateral for a $225,000 line of credit." and yes, Curve beer may be served. http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-10192003-180798.html -alex __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:48:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C396A3.ECA55640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Calling on those can help identifying styles of freight trucks. I'm = currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered hopper and I hope some one = can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it rode on. If you = look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freigth & Passenger Equipment' = you'll see three different shots of H30s. The top photo has a truck = with two coil springs and an eliptical leaf spring between the coil = springs. The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two = triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be and = the bottom photo is still another totally different truck. Please help!! What are each of these styles of trucks? Are they all = PRR? Is there one that's more prevalent than the others? Regards, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C396A3.ECA55640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Calling on those can help identifying styles of = freight=20 trucks.  I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered = hopper and I=20 hope some one can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it = rode=20 on.  If you look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freigth & = Passenger=20 Equipment' you'll see three different shots of H30s.  The top photo = has a=20 truck with two coil springs and an eliptical leaf spring between the = coil=20 springs.  The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two = triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be and = the=20 bottom photo is still another totally different truck.
 
Please help!!   What are each of these = styles of=20 trucks?  Are they all PRR?   Is there one that's more = prevalent=20 than the others?
 
Regards,
 
Kris

------=_NextPart_000_01B9_01C396A3.ECA55640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 06:36:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 11:40 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > "The financially troubled Altoona Railroaders Memorial > Museum is considering a proposal to set up a > microbrewery and restaurant. Why don't they set up a toll booth on the railroad and stop all the trains to pay a toll? ;-) Once again, it sounds like they are really reaching. They need to find a solution WITHIN railroading itself. By trying to find funding outside of railroading, they are missing the obvious: that their attraction isn't attractive in the manner it was intended. Very unfortunate. The Altoona museum has an excellent interpretive museum, as anyone who has visited there can attest to. Unfortunately, their rolling stock collection is in such poor shape it is not a draw. I'd venture to say that attendance would be better if the prototype collection were in better shape, and accessible. But that costs $$$ that the museum doesn't have. On one hand, it's too bad Altoona has those two great walking bridges from which to watch trains. Otherwise, I'd suggest they put in a first-rate train watching facility, with scanners, chairs, etc. That may still hold some attraction. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:58:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose --part1_24.47a8a728.2cc535d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if there is an off-the-shelf model paint that will match the X29 box cars? I have the car with the Dreadnaught ends, RC-7066-14. One of the joys of living in Colorado's dry climate is static charges. Static builds up and when applying extra thin super glue, the glue will splatter. Yep, the right side of the car now looks as if it was painted with texture paint. Time to turn on the humidifier. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_24.47a8a728.2cc535d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Does anyone know if there is an off-the-shelf m= odel paint that will match the X29 box cars?  I have the car with the D= readnaught ends,  RC-7066-14.

  One of the joys of living in Colorado's dry climate is static charges= .  Static builds up and when applying extra thin super glue, the glue w= ill splatter.  Yep, the right side of the car now looks as if it was pa= inted with texture paint.  Time to turn on the humidifier.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_24.47a8a728.2cc535d8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:24:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Swift Plant, Et Al, in Harrisburg From: Jerry Britton I've asked this on PRR-talk about a year ago, and never got a complete answer. Hoping maybe there's some new blood on the list, or maybe the diagram below will job some memories. I'm looking at the area of MP 104.2 (based on PRR CT1000 of 1945) just west of HARRIS tower, where the Swift packing plant was located. The track looked something like this, based on a val map I have a copy of... ==========================mains========================= to pass station ____ \_____________________________________/ \ \____________________________________ \___________________________________Note A \ \_________________________________ \________________________________Note B \ _____________\_________________________________ Note C Swift The CT1000 shows the following at this location: Harrisburg Steel Corp. No. 2 <-----known to be on opposite side of main North Street Delivery Swift & Co. No. 1 and United Ice & Coal No. 1 American Rag & Metal Co. Simon Michlovitz The two tracks marked Note A has some markings on it that may indicate a gantry. Anyone recall one there? The two tracks marked Note B have Belgium Block Paving marked around them. It is my supposition, without any additional info, that both Note A and Note B areas make up the North Street Delivery entry. Anyone know if American Rag & Metal Co. was on the opposite side of the mains with the Harrisburg Steel Corp.? We know where the Swift plant was as it is marked. Surprised it is only one track and that track doubles as a switchback. Given the location of Swift, and with United Ice & Coal being on the same entry line in the CT1000, I have to wonder if United was located at Note C. Anyone know? Then there's the Simon Michlovitz, a private siding, that we still can't find out anything on. Hmmm. All help appreciated. May have to post a bounty for photos! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:31:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Swift Plant, Et Al, in Harrisburg From: Jerry Britton On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 09:24 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > ==========================mains========================= to pass > station > ____ \_____________________________________/ > \ > \____________________________________ > \___________________________________Note A > \ > \_________________________________ > \________________________________Note B > \ > _____________\_________________________________ > Note C > Swift > > We know where the Swift plant was as it is marked. Surprised it is > only one track and that track doubles as a switchback. I've also noted the apparent lack of room for a stock yard. But I just came across, another 2/10 mile west, at MP 105.4, the following entry: Stock Yard Delivery Was this on the same side of the mains as the Swift plant? Anyone recall the movement of livestock 2/10 of a mile on the ground, to get them to the plant? Also note that at MP 105.5 is United Ice & Coal Co. No.2 United Ice & Coal Co. No.3 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:12:00 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose I don't know if its an exact match for the color RC uses, but I, and several others on this list, use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer as a reasonable PRR freight car color. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know if there is an off-the-shelf model paint that will > match the X29 box cars? I have the car with the Dreadnaught ends, > RC-7066-14. > > One of the joys of living in Colorado's dry climate is static > charges. Static builds up and when applying extra thin super glue, > the glue will splatter. Yep, the right side of the car now looks as > if it was painted with texture paint. Time to turn on the humidifier. > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:13:16 +0000 Kris Kollar asked: "I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered hopper and I hope some one can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it rode on. If you look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment' you'll see three different shots of H30s. The top photo has a truck with two coil springs and an elliptical leaf spring between the coil springs. The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be and the bottom photo is still another totally different truck." "Please help!! What are each of these styles of trucks? Are they all PRR? Is there one that's more prevalent than the others?" Kris, I don't have the book at work, but hopefully the following will help. On the H30 page of Rob's website, he's got a breakdown of truck classes that appeared on Class H30/H30A covered hoppers: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=H30 Additionally, he's got a page of truck diagrams: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= OK, going by your descriptions of the first two trucks: "The top photo has a truck with two coil springs and an elliptical leaf spring between the coil springs." Class 2E-F10 70-ton coil-elliptic spring truck http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F10- E405873.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= "The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be..." Class 2E-F11 70-ton National B-1 http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F11- E409232A.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= I'll confirm these and make a call on the third car from the photos after I get home tonight. The bad news: neither of these trucks is available in HO as a 70-ton truck (which is a problem we've already run into on the F30A project). You could get by using the 50-ton versions of these trucks (2D-F12, Bowser; 2D-F13, P2K, ECW, BCW (Cape Line) - YMMV. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:19:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04B5_01C396FC.18AE31A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris, For some info on PRR freight car trucks, you can see http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html It has a bunch of truck lists which match PRR truck classes to car classes. There's a link to diagrams of many of the truck types too... Also for the H30 specifically see http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=H30 I seem to recall that the F&C car is an H30a, not an H30 so the three photos you mentioned may not apply here... The H30's used a bunch of different types of trucks, which ones got which is on my H30 page, the H30a's used 2E-F22a or 2E-F29 trucks which the truck list says are A.S.F. A-3 ride control trucks. As for which model trucks represent these best, I'm not sure. If anyone can help me out with matching up PRR classes designations to model trucks I'd appreciate some help in this area!!! Hope this was of some help... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Kris Kollar Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:49 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Calling on those can help identifying styles of freight trucks. I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered hopper and I hope some one can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it rode on. If you look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freigth & Passenger Equipment' you'll see three different shots of H30s. The top photo has a truck with two coil springs and an eliptical leaf spring between the coil springs. The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be and the bottom photo is still another totally different truck. Please help!! What are each of these styles of trucks? Are they all PRR? Is there one that's more prevalent than the others? Regards, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_04B5_01C396FC.18AE31A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kris,
 
For some info on = PRR freight=20 car trucks, you can see http://p= rr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html
It has a bunch of = truck lists=20 which match PRR truck classes to car classes.  There's a link to = diagrams=20 of
many of the truck = types=20 too...
 
Also for the H30 = specifically=20 see http:/= /prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=3DH30
 
I seem to recall = that the=20 F&C car is an H30a, not an H30 so the three photos you mentioned may = not=20 apply
here...  The H30's=20 used a bunch of different types of trucks, which ones got which is on my = H30=20 page, the
H30a's used 2E-F22a = or 2E-F29=20 trucks which the truck list says are A.S.F. A-3 ride control=20 trucks.
As for which model = trucks=20 represent these best, I'm not sure.  If anyone can help me out with = matching up
PRR classes = designations to=20 model trucks I'd appreciate some help in this = area!!!
 
Hope this was of = some help...=20
 
Rob
 
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Kris=20 Kollar
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:49 AM
To:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Trucks for=20 H30

Calling on those can help identifying styles of = freight=20 trucks.  I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered = hopper and=20 I hope some one can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it = rode=20 on.  If you look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freigth & = Passenger Equipment' you'll see three different shots of H30s.  = The top=20 photo has a truck with two coil springs and an eliptical leaf spring = between=20 the coil springs.  The center photo doesn't have visible springs = but has=20 two triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would = be and=20 the bottom photo is still another totally different = truck.
 
Please help!!   What are each of these = styles of=20 trucks?  Are they all PRR?   Is there one that's more = prevalent=20 than the others?
 
Regards,
 
Kris

------=_NextPart_000_04B5_01C396FC.18AE31A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:35:50 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3971F.D726CB10 Content-Type: text/plain Kris; I have made those coil/elliptic trucks from Walthers trucks (they have a drop in the frame like a 2D-F8 but have a solid backing behind the springs and a bit of distance between them for insertion of a leaf spring). I used Sunshine leaf springs from one of their kits, but have also made them from bits of styrene. The truck looks heavier (more like 70t) than the other 2D-F8 trucks from Kadee and Bowser and RC. The P2K National B-1 truck makes a suitable stand-in (its not 70t) for those on the H30a that I saw photos of. Plus, some H30a had roller bearing trucks, too. Seems like a mix and match on those cars. I pretty much match the trucks to the photo as a result. Elden -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:13 AM To: kkollar@cplx.net Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Kris Kollar asked: "I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered hopper and I hope some one can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it rode on. If you look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment' you'll see three different shots of H30s. The top photo has a truck with two coil springs and an elliptical leaf spring between the coil springs. The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be and the bottom photo is still another totally different truck." "Please help!! What are each of these styles of trucks? Are they all PRR? Is there one that's more prevalent than the others?" Kris, I don't have the book at work, but hopefully the following will help. On the H30 page of Rob's website, he's got a breakdown of truck classes that appeared on Class H30/H30A covered hoppers: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=H30 Additionally, he's got a page of truck diagrams: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= OK, going by your descriptions of the first two trucks: "The top photo has a truck with two coil springs and an elliptical leaf spring between the coil springs." Class 2E-F10 70-ton coil-elliptic spring truck http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F10- E405873.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= "The center photo doesn't have visible springs but has two triangular cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs would be..." Class 2E-F11 70-ton National B-1 http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F11- E409232A.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= I'll confirm these and make a call on the third car from the photos after I get home tonight. The bad news: neither of these trucks is available in HO as a 70-ton truck (which is a problem we've already run into on the F30A project). You could get by using the 50-ton versions of these trucks (2D-F12, Bowser; 2D-F13, P2K, ECW, BCW (Cape Line) - YMMV. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3971F.D726CB10 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Trucks for H30

Kris;
I have made those coil/elliptic trucks from Walthers = trucks (they have a drop in the frame like a 2D-F8 but have a solid = backing behind the springs and a bit of distance between them for = insertion of a leaf spring).  I used Sunshine leaf springs from = one of their kits, but have also made them from bits of styrene.  = The truck looks heavier (more like 70t) than the other 2D-F8 trucks = from Kadee and Bowser and RC.

The P2K National B-1 truck makes a suitable stand-in = (its not 70t) for those on the H30a that I saw photos of.  Plus, = some H30a had roller bearing trucks, too.  Seems like a mix and = match on those cars.  I pretty much match the trucks to the photo = as a result.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:13 AM
To: kkollar@cplx.net
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Trucks for H30

Kris Kollar asked:
"I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin = covered hopper and I hope some one
can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks = it rode on.  If you look
on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freight & = Passenger Equipment' you'll see
three different shots of H30s.  The top photo = has a truck with two coil
springs and an elliptical leaf spring between the = coil springs.  The center
photo doesn't have visible springs but has two = triangular cutouts/holes
beneath the area where the springs would be and the = bottom photo is still
another totally different truck."

"Please help!!   What are each of = these styles of trucks?  Are they all
PRR?   Is there one that's more prevalent = than the others?"

Kris, I don't have the book at work, but hopefully = the following will help. 
On the H30 page of Rob's website, he's got a = breakdown of truck classes that 
appeared on Class H30/H30A covered hoppers:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=3D= H30

Additionally, he's got a page of truck = diagrams:
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=3D= ftk&sz=3Dsm&fr=3D

OK, going by your descriptions of the first two = trucks:
"The top photo has a truck with two coil = springs and an elliptical leaf
spring between the coil springs."
Class 2E-F10 70-ton coil-elliptic spring = truck
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=3D= 2E-F10-
E405873.gif&sel=3Dftk&sz=3Dsm&fr=3D

"The center photo doesn't have visible springs = but has two triangular
cutouts/holes beneath the area where the springs = would be..."
Class 2E-F11 70-ton National B-1
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=3D= 2E-F11-
E409232A.gif&sel=3Dftk&sz=3Dsm&fr=3D

I'll confirm these and make a call on the third car = from the photos after I
get home tonight.

The bad news: neither of these trucks is available in = HO as a 70-ton truck
(which is a problem we've already run into on the = F30A project).  You could
get by using the 50-ton versions of these trucks = (2D-F12, Bowser; 2D-F13,
P2K, ECW, BCW (Cape Line) - YMMV.


Ben Hom
 
 

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C3971F.D726CB10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] X29 door stops... Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:35:11 -0400 Hi all, Quick question about the door stops on X29's. From photos it's apparent that there are two styles of door stops used on the X29's, One style has one stop mounted at the end of the door track. See ( http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_489546_X29.gif ) and one has two stops mounted higher on the car body. (see http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_569091_X29_MCL19 29.jpg ) Is there a way from either car number or body style to determine which style was used or is finding a photo of the car to be modeled the only way to determine this? Which was more common? I noticed that on the R-T-R Red Caboose kits, they only come with the lower style. I don't know if they picked appropriate numbers for this or if they just took the easy way out... Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:47:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? -------------------------------1066664848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/19/03 11:48:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, alex_charyna@yahoo.com writes: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-10192003-180798.html What ever happened to rule "G"? Ray Burhjart SPF "G" -------------------------------1066664848 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 10/19/03 11:48:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, alex_cha= ryna@yahoo.com writes:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-101= 92003-180798.html
What ever happened to rule "G"?

R= ay Burhjart SPF





"G"
-------------------------------1066664848-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] X29 door stops... Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:56:58 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39722.CA980AF0 Content-Type: text/plain Rob; Wasn't there some info on this in one of the mags when they did an X29 article? I think it said that the dual square stops were early and single bottom-mounted triangular one late? I may be remembering wrong. I had some left overs from a Sunshine kit that I used on a conversion once. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Rob Schoenberg [mailto:robs@actel.com] Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:35 AM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] X29 door stops... Hi all, Quick question about the door stops on X29's. From photos it's apparent that there are two styles of door stops used on the X29's, One style has one stop mounted at the end of the door track. See ( http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_489546_X29.gif ) and one has two stops mounted higher on the car body. (see http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_569091_X29_MCL19 29.jpg ) Is there a way from either car number or body style to determine which style was used or is finding a photo of the car to be modeled the only way to determine this? Which was more common? I noticed that on the R-T-R Red Caboose kits, they only come with the lower style. I don't know if they picked appropriate numbers for this or if they just took the easy way out... Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39722.CA980AF0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] X29 door stops...

Rob;
Wasn't there some info on this in one of the mags = when they did an X29 article?  I think it said that the dual = square stops were early and single bottom-mounted triangular one = late?  I may be remembering wrong.  I had some left overs = from a Sunshine kit that I used on a conversion once.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Schoenberg [mailto:robs@actel.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:35 AM
To: PRR-talk
Subject: [PRR] X29 door stops...

Hi all,

Quick question about the door stops on X29's.  = >From photos it's
apparent that there are two styles of door stops = used on the X29's,
One style has one stop mounted at the end of the = door track.  See (
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?phot= o=3DPRR_489546_X29.gif )
and one has two stops mounted higher on the car = body.  (see
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?phot= o=3DPRR_569091_X29_MCL19
29.jpg )

Is there a way from either car number or body style = to determine which style
was used
or is finding a photo of the car to be modeled the = only way to determine
this?
Which was more common?   I noticed that on = the R-T-R Red Caboose kits, they
only
come with the lower style.  I don't know if = they picked appropriate numbers
for this
or if they just took the easy way out...

Rob


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39722.CA980AF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:51:33 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Humpyyard.com turnout controls John, I have managed to control two sets of crossover points in O scale with one Hankscraft motor, although it was not as satisfactory as I liked. I used Plastruct H colume stock for sliding bars, per an article in MR or RMC a few years ago. I have also had fair success operating eight slip switch points plus moving center points together on one motor. I am tending now to go back and install separate motors in some locations. If nothing else, it eliminates the need for a number of seasonal humidity-related adjustments. The prototype, with pipe connected points, used a separate lever for the facing point locks. Power crossovers are generally on one lever for the point movement of both sets of points in a crossover, as evidenced by numerous interlocking diagrams available on the web. I do not know if I have actually seen any manual interlocking diagrams to know if pipe-conected crossover points in two switches are tied together on one lever. I was concerned, too, that the model levers do not have any interlocking function, but that would be difficult to implement and have a generalized design usable in many different model configurations. The curved slot at the top of the base, if mounted just at or above the tower "floor" level, would look very close to prototype installations. It was Gordon Odegard who built the working mechanical interlocking. Steve Bartlett John Bobsin wrote: .... Ted notes that these levers are useful for interlockings; well yes, they look kinda like "Armstrong" interlocking levers, umm, but they don't interlock, that is, there is no way (I imagine) to stop them from moving if the operator tries to set up a conflicting route. (Side comment: many years ago MR ran a series on building a really "interlocked" model interlocking frame, I suspect this was by Gordon Odegard himself. This goes back to the late sixties at least. It was a jewel of sliding brass locking bars and interlocking pins, called "dogs" in the trade I believe.) As for operating both turnouts in a crossover from one mechanism, I have no experience with Tortoise machines but I did do this once with a rotary relay (I have a couple dozen of these old war surplus gems, they are really rugged). It may be doable with a Tortoise as well, but might also be more trouble than it's worth. Side question: do prototype crossover turnouts always move together? On an Armstrong machine, would it be possible to have just a single lever? I'd say it's unlikely with pipe rodding. (And didn't they have two mechanisms per turnout, to move the points and to lock them? Each pipe-connected switch always seems to have two rods to it, one to throw and one to lock I assume, does that mean two levers in the interlocking machine?) ... John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:06:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? From: Jerry Britton On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:47 AM, RBurg74133@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/19/03 11:48:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, > alex_charyna@yahoo.com writes: > > http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-10192003-180798.html Having read that, I'm even more convinced they've "lost it"! Granted, it wouldn't provide the rent of a restaurant, but a sampling of ideas that would be more appropriate for this space (the former museum building) would be: Hobby shop (w/Internet presence to provide geographic-independent sales) Local Tourist Bureau (I don't know where they are now, but this is right by station for visitors) Book store (w/Internet presence to provide geographic-independent sales) Travel Agency Model railroad club (may be too costly; though would draw to museum) The building is large enough to support more than one of the above. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:23:21 +0000 I still contend that Altoona by itself is not an adequate draw for the average person. It is too specific and has no entertainment value (like an amusement park or rides like Steamtown). It is too far from the turnpike and I-80 for the average person to deviate (Steamtown isn't and wasn't all that successful when in Vermont). How many of us would deviate at least an hour each way to visit say a company town that made textiles or bricks or steel? Insufficient local population also contributes. Personally I'd rather see the society more involved in Altoona than Lewistown but that is opinion and hindsight. > On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 11:40 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > > > "The financially troubled Altoona Railroaders Memorial > > Museum is considering a proposal to set up a > > microbrewery and restaurant. > > Why don't they set up a toll booth on the railroad and stop all the > trains to pay a toll? ;-) > > Once again, it sounds like they are really reaching. They need to find > a solution WITHIN railroading itself. By trying to find funding outside > of railroading, they are missing the obvious: that their attraction > isn't attractive in the manner it was intended. Very unfortunate. > > The Altoona museum has an excellent interpretive museum, as anyone who > has visited there can attest to. Unfortunately, their rolling stock > collection is in such poor shape it is not a draw. I'd venture to say > that attendance would be better if the prototype collection were in > better shape, and accessible. But that costs $$$ that the museum > doesn't have. > > On one hand, it's too bad Altoona has those two great walking bridges > from which to watch trains. Otherwise, I'd suggest they put in a > first-rate train watching facility, with scanners, chairs, etc. That > may still hold some attraction. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:25:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Humpyyard.com turnout controls --- Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I was concerned, too, that the model levers do not have any > interlocking function,... I'm thinking here of the rod-operated systems, with big floor-mounted levers, which appears to be what the humpyard product is based on. If I recall correctly, the prototype interlocking machines were, in a sense, separate from the levers. That is, the array of sliding bars, dogs, cams, latches, whatever, was located in a room under the second-story room which housed the levers and the operator. > ...but that would be difficult to implement and have a > generalized design usable in many different model configurations. Was it not the case that each interlocking machine was designed for the particular track layout it was to control? No different in the model world, then. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:32:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? From: Jerry Britton On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 12:23 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Personally I'd rather see > the society more involved in Altoona than Lewistown but that is > opinion and > hindsight. Now THAT would have been something...the PRRT&HS in its own facility right on the grounds of the Altoona museum! Agree on the "hindsight" comment, but I wouldn't trade what we have either. The Lewistown Station is in excellent shape and would otherwise probably be gone by now. However, if you stop to daydream... 1) PRRT&HS members going to Altoona to access the PRRT&HS archives in the Society's research center there would likely visit the museum as well. 2) Having a Society presence at the museum might draw people to the Society. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:04:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C39702.48660480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: > > The bad news: neither of these trucks is available in HO as a 70-ton = truck > (which is a problem we've already run into on the F30A project). You could > get by using the 50-ton versions of these trucks (2D-F12, Bowser; = 2D-F13, > P2K, ECW, BCW (Cape Line) - YMMV. Does Sunshine still have their plastic truck #TP40? This is the 2E-F10 = truck which they listed with their F30A kit. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C39702.48660480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original=20 Message -----
From: <b.hom@att.net>
>
> The bad news: = neither of=20 these trucks is available in HO as a 70-ton truck
> (which is a = problem=20 we've already run into on the F30A project).  You
could
> = get by=20 using the 50-ton versions of these trucks (2D-F12, Bowser; = 2D-F13,
> P2K,=20 ECW, BCW (Cape Line) - YMMV.

Does Sunshine still have their = plastic truck=20 #TP40? This is the 2E-F10 truck
which they listed with their F30A=20 kit.

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C39702.48660480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hanlon" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:05:24 -0400 >Granted, it wouldn't provide the rent of a restaurant, but a sampling >of ideas that would be more appropriate for this space (the former >museum building) would be: >Hobby shop >Local Tourist Bureau >Book store >Travel Agency >Model railroad club (may be too costly; though would draw to museum) the above are not enough to provide he needed income. making the case that the book store and hobby shop be geograpgic independent by having internet sales makes zero sense. why have the overhead of a very low volume high rent store when you could simply have the low overhead cost of a website and web marketing. the microbrew idea has larger appeal. they are destinations themselves and when combined with the railroad piece could make for a good draw. the simple fact is, no one is going to Altoona for fun. those that live in the area drive 2 hours to Pittsburgh or to State College for entertainment. this is the problem of being "isolated" in the mountians. there is nothing to do and therefore no one goes there. i stopped going to the area a decade ago. the curve used to be free and fun. now i have to pay to watch trains - no thank you. that and the fact that railfanning has become very boring, what with a dozen locomtive paint schemes and columns of containers. woohoo, another black NS unit pulling another stack train. but that is just me. railfanning and railroad preservation is a noble idea that does not generate enough revenue to keep the places going. look at Steamtown and Strasburg - both get HEAVY state and federal dollars to keep the doors open. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:09:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? In a message dated 10/20/03 3:48:41 AM, alex_charyna@yahoo.com writes: << "The financially troubled Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is considering a proposal to set up a microbrewery and restaurant. The thought is that by charging rent, taking a percentage of sales or both, the museum could help keep an auxiliary building from foreclosure as collateral for a $225,000 line of credit." >> ***************** As I recall, the mortality rate for microbrewers is higher than for privately owned interstate passenger railroads. During the dot.com boom, microbreweries were quite the thing. In fact, there was an interesting newspaper that catered to the industry. But, most of them went belly up, taking a lot of SBA money with them. There were at least two in Fort Worth, one right downtown and the other (Panther City Brewery), up in the Stockyards. Both now gone. In fact, if you check the surviving microbreweries, I think you'll find that they are in Northern California and in some very high volume, high disposable income areas, and very few elsewhere. My bet is that the Altoona folks who had this idea where reading a 1997 promotional piece or article. I would hope the Museum would do some comprehensive due diligence before embarking on a scheme that might leave them with an empty facility, so modified by the bankrupt (and penniless) former owner that it would take a half million to get it back to rentable condition. This is a good survey question for US readers: "Was there a microbrewery near where you live and what is it's current status?" Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:14:30 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C39703.B7077080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rob Schoenberg=20 The H30's used a bunch of different types of trucks, which ones got = which is on my H30 page, the H30a's used 2E-F22a or 2E-F29 trucks which the truck list says are = A.S.F. A-3 ride control trucks. As for which model trucks represent these best, I'm not sure. =20 Once again, Sunshine had (has?) their plastic truck #TP46 with metal = wheels described as an A-3 Ride Control truck. Listed with their ATSF = plug door reefers. Disclaimer: I have never checked these trucks (or the 2EF10 I = mentioned in previous post) against diagrams,so don't know how accurate = they are. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C39703.B7077080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rob = Schoenberg
The=20 H30's used a bunch of different types of trucks, which ones got which = is on my=20 H30 page, the
H30a's used = 2E-F22a or 2E-F29=20 trucks which the truck list says are A.S.F. A-3 ride control=20 trucks.
As for which = model trucks=20 represent these best, I'm not sure.  =
Once = again, Sunshine=20 had (has?) their plastic truck #TP46 with metal wheels described as = an A-3=20 Ride Control truck.  Listed with their ATSF plug door=20 reefers.
 
Disclaimer:  I=20 have never checked these trucks  (or the 2EF10 I mentioned in = previous=20 post) against diagrams,so don't know how accurate they = are.
 
Bob=20 Zoeller
 
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C39703.B7077080-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:14:33 +0000 Bob Zoeller asked: Does Sunshine still have their plastic truck #TP40? This is the 2E-F10 truck which they listed with their F30A kit. I doubt it, but I'll find out from Martin Lofton himself at Naperville this weekend. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] [PRR]Naperville was Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:44:54 -0500 Ben Horn replied: I doubt it, but I'll find out from Martin Lofton himself at Naperville this weekend. ----- Any other list members attending the Naperville meet this weekend? With luck I will be there Friday AM. Work is always getting in the way of the important things. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:46:31 +0000 Bob Zoeller wrote: H30a's used 2E-F22a or 2E-F29 trucks which the truck list says are A.S.F. A-3 ride control trucks. As for which model trucks represent these best, I'm not sure. Once again, Sunshine had (has?) their plastic truck #TP46 with metal wheels described as an A-3 Ride Control truck. Listed with their ATSF plug door reefers. I'll check on the Sunshine trucks while at Naperville this weekend. Stewart makes a 70-ton ASF A-3 Ride Control truck which you'll find in many of their hopper kits. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:44:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? From: Brad Bower The Altoona Railroaders Museum is in a financial bind on many fronts and it is a shame they are grasping for any kind of support for staying afloat. One sad note is that the PRT&HS has ignored this great resource as a focal point for possible national conventions. The museum's facilities were offered for use by the PRT&HS several years ago when the convention was held in Altoona. The society turned their backs on the invitation and turned a cold shoulder to their overtures. What a great way to promote both the Museum and the efforts of the PRRT&HS would be to hold venues there. Maybe the PRRT&HS board would see fit to rethink the location of a future convention to be held at the Museum before that great resource is lost. Some how Camp Hill convention site doesn't cut it when the Altoona Railroaders Museum is a viable alternate facility. Sincerely Bard C Bower ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:12:48 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Correction: FGE "Ventilator and Refrigerator" into Forties and perhaps Fifties In a message dated 10/18/03 1:12:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:34:15 -0400 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C394DD.44B67F80 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jerry & Rick, > > On Page 222 of Steel Rails to the Sunrise there is a photo of a PRR L1s = > on the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR taken in Sept 1945, there are three = > FGE reefers visible behind it. All three have 'VENTILATOR AND = > REFRIGERATOR" on three lines to the right of the door. On Page 90 of = > Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940 - 1950's , there is a photo of another = > L1s leaving Capa Charles, Va with an FGE reefer immediately behind it. = > The photo is undated, but the color rendition is excellent, so I'd say = > it was taken post-1950.. Again, the lettering says 'VENTILATOR AND = > REFRIGERATOR" on three lines. > > I still maintain that many of the wooden FGE cars would still have this = > lettering in 1954. > > Grefgg Mahlkov > Gregg, Jerry, and all, Thanks, Gregg. It's great to be corrected here. These photo citations are definitely a move in the right direction. I've never read Steel Rails to the Sunrise, so I was unaware of the 1945 shot. And I wish we could get an actual date on the Dave Cope shot on page 90 in the Don Ball book -- I missed its significance, or possibly skipped it because only a bit of one side is visible, with no car number evident. I've found some defects in my notes/index... On rechecking the 1953 Car Builders Cyclopedia, I see on page 381, there's a 1948-painted FGEX car with "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR". The pattern continues with WFEX. The 53 CBC includes a 1948 WFEX ice reefer with "VENTILATOR - REFRIGERATOR" underneath the black GN herald. Again in 1950 (p351) we see the same usage, except with a GNRy herald. On the other hand, the 1952 WFEX cars shown are mechanical, and only say "REFRIGERATOR." My conclusion: Obviously I was wrong in placing the "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR" only into the Thirties; on FGEX-painted equipment, it clearly survived the Forties. Now the heavy questions will be: 1. Can anyone find "V&R" paint schemes with shop dates later than 1950? For that matter, with a reweigh date? 2. Can anyone find a dated photograph where an earlier V&R paint scheme is running around later than 1950? This is especially tricky because we're talking refrigerator cars. In general, freight cars might keep a paint job for many years, and only be painted as part of a major reshopping or re-equipping. But it appears reefers were shopped at more frequent intervals (to fight corrosion?), so that car paint tended to be kept up closer to the "current standard" at any given time. Anyway, with all this evidence, I'd have to agree with Greg that V&R's chances of still showing on part of the FGEX fleet in 1954 is pretty decent. I've still got problems with the credibility of "surviving to 1959" (as Clover House stated), but it only had to happen once to be true... Again, where are the FGE hobbyists that I know are lurking out there, who probably have primary source knowledge on this? And for those who wonder how anyone can know/care about such minutae.. take heart. I was utterly confused by all this stuff for years, and then started to fight back by organizing a database. As we've seen, it ain't perfect, but it does give me a place to start each time I revisit the subject. Rick Tipton Obeying the academic imperative to know more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing at all . Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:13:54 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Ventilator and Refrigerator stacked on the carside? In a message dated 10/17/03 6:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:37:49 -0500 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C394CD.0042A500 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I (Rick) wrote: > > 3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car = > Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I = > think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a = > pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice. By 1952 (and your = > 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by = > MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene). > Bob Z. says, > I haven't dug out all my Cyclopedias in storage, but what I do have = > doesn't show the exact phrase "Ventilated and Refrigerated" in any = > pictures. Doesn't mean it didn't exist: I am just confused because I = > have no photos that show it. As I pointed out to Jerry, the photo in = > the Great Yellow Fleet by John H White of PFE's second paint scheme in = > 1911 shows "Ventilated" and "Refrigerator" stacked. In the 20's and = > 30's, "Ventilated Refrigerator" on one line. Late 30's and through the = > 40's , back to stacked individual words. > > FGEX seems to have used Ventilator & Refrigerator and Ventilated = > Refrigerator, but I don't have any dates on photos I have access to. > > Bob Zoeller > Bob, Gregg, Jerry, and others: On review of messages and materials, I was wrong about "VandR" disappearing early. Speaking specifically of FGE-shopped cars, I now have found pix of cars that use "Ventilator and Refrigerator" from 1929 to 1950. I've still missed any citations on "Ventilated and Refrigerator", which may have been PFE's usage. Incidentally, in all my FGE pix "VandR" is three lines on the carside, except for the WFE, where the GN (or after 1950 GNR) herald squeezes them into one line at the bottom ("Ventilator-Refrigerator"). If the "VandR" had been applied to 50' FGE reefers, I have to wonder if it would have been done as a single line -- all my 50' pix seem to be post-1952, and in fact post-1956, when the "AAR bars" above and below the reporting marks were retired for a more modern look. Re-examining built dates on photos, I still come to the conclusion that FGE (and WFE) dropped Ventilator from the lettering in 1952. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:10:35 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] My thoughts on the Altoona Museum I first went there a long time ago, before the N6B at the curve and the Loretto (Loretto II?) were torched, before the museum acquired the ex-BWC tank engine. Liked it so well I went back, also before the new building, but on the second visit they did have a display showing what they intended to do in the new building. (Wish I could remember what years those were.) Several things interested me greatly. The Brookville dinky, (Brookville is 20 miles west of where I sit) the controls of which bore a marked resemblence to those of my maternal grandfather's 1935 Ford; a wheel set (Railway Steel Spring Co. - Latrobe) made in my home town, possibly of steel refined by my paternal grandfather; the wooden drawhead buried by the 1889 Johnstown Flood, unearthed by the 1977 Johnstown Flood. When the new building opened, I went soon after and was, in a word, disappointed. I'm not sure why, but I was. A couple of the exhibits actively repel me (the gabby newsboy in the simulated news stand, the equally gabby RR type in the simulated bar room). Perhaps the reputed emphasis on "Railroaders" rather than "Railroads" is at the root of my malaise. Seeing a "typical railroad worker's home" moves me very little. I lived in such a home, they were not unique to railroaders nor to Altoona. Ho hum. On the other hand, I've spent more time and more enjoyable time at the exhibits at the curve. I guess I'm not a people person, but if I were, would I be interested in railroads which after all are things rather than people? Before someone jumps in with the thought that "It's the people that make them work" I suggest that that is true of any field of endeavor and that the plethora of rules, regulations, and forms surrounding railroad operations suggests they were designed to work in spite of "the people". I have been back to the new museum a total of three times. It is possible that I'll do it again, but the last two trips were in a spirit of "perhaps I missed something, maybe if I try again...". In my view the museum made choices, those choices led them down a path which doesn't go where I care to go. Adding a microbrewry and restaurant won't change that. Perhaps others feel differently. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:10:56 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? U3RldmUgSGFubG9uIHdyaXRlczoKCj5HcmFudGVkLCBpdCB3b3VsZG4ndCBwcm92aWRlIHRo ZSByZW50IG9mIGEgcmVzdGF1cmFudCwgYnV0IGEgc2FtcGxpbmcgb2YgaWRlYXMgdGhhdCB3 b3VsZCBiZSBtb3JlIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIGZvciB0aGlzIHNwYWNlICh0aGUgZm9ybWVyIG11 c2V1bSBidWlsZGluZykgd291bGQgYmU6Cgo+SG9iYnkgc2hvcAo+TG9jYWwgVG91cmlzdCBC dXJlYXUKPkJvb2sgc3RvcmUKPlRyYXZlbCBBZ2VuY3kKPk1vZGVsIHJhaWxyb2FkIGNsdWIg KG1heSBiZSB0b28gY29zdGx5OyB0aG91Z2ggd291bGQgZHJhdyB0byBtdXNldW0pCgo+dGhl IGFib3ZlIGFyZSBub3QgZW5vdWdoIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgaGUgbmVlZGVkIGluY29tZS4gIG1h a2luZyB0aGUgY2FzZSB0aGF0CnRoZSBib29rIHN0b3JlIGFuZCBob2JieSBzaG9wIGJlIGdl b2dyYXBoaWMgaW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgYnkgaGF2aW5nIEludGVybmV0CnNhbGVzIG1ha2VzIHpl cm8gc2Vuc2UuICB3aHkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgb3ZlcmhlYWQgb2YgYSB2ZXJ5IGxvdyB2b2x1bWUg aGlnaApyZW50IHN0b3JlIHdoZW4geW91IGNvdWxkIHNpbXBseSBoYXZlIHRoZSBsb3cgb3Zl cmhlYWQgY29zdCBvZiBhIHdlYnNpdGUgYW5kCndlYiBtYXJrZXRpbmcuPAoKPiByYWlsIGZh bm5pbmcgYW5kIHJhaWxyb2FkIHByZXNlcnZhdGlvbiBpcyBhIG5vYmxlIGlkZWEgdGhhdCBk b2VzIG5vdCBnZW5lcmF0ZSBlbm91Z2ggcmV2ZW51ZSB0byBrZWVwIHRoZSBwbGFjZXMgZ29p bmcuICBsb29rIGF0IFN0ZWFtdG93biBhbmQgU3RyYXNidXJnIC0gYm90aCBnZXQgSEVBVlkg c3RhdGUgYW5kIGZlZGVyYWwgZG9sbGFycyB0byBrZWVwIHRoZSBkb29ycyBvcGVuLgogCj4g LXN0ZXZlIGhhbmxvbgoKQWxsLAoKVGhlIGlkZWEgb2YgaGF2aW5nIGFueSBvZiB0aGUgYWJv dmUgbWVudGlvbmVkIGJ1c2luZXNzZXMgYXJlIHdvcnRoeSBvZiBpbnZlc3RpZ2F0aW9uIGFu ZCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gY29tcGFyZSBBbHRvb25hIHRvIFN0cmFzYnVyZywgU3RlYW10d29uIGVj dC4sIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGEgbWlzdGFrZS4gU2V0IHlvdXIgc2lnaHRzIGhpZ2hlciBhbmQgbG9v ayB0byB3aGF0IGhhcyBoYXBwZW5lZCBhdCB0aGUgQ2FsaWZvcm5pYSBTdGF0ZSBSYWlsd2F5 IE11c2V1bSBhcyBhIHN1Y2Nlc3Mgc3RvcnkuIEl0IGhhcyBhIE11c2V1bSBib29rIHN0b3Jl IGFuZCBhbGJlaXQgdGhlIGJvb2sgc3RvcmUgaXMgbm90IGEgZHJhdyBmb3IgcGVvcGxlIHRo ZSBldmVudHMgdGhhdCB0aGUgbXVzZXVtIGhvbGRzLiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSBJIHdhcyB0aGVy ZSBvdmVyIHRoZSBMYWJvciBEYXkgd2Vla2VuZCBhbmQgdGhlIG11c2V1bSB3YXMgaG9sZGlu ZyBzb21lIGZvcm0gb2YgYSBOYXJyb3cgR2F1Z2UgRmVzdCwgYW5kIHRoZSBib29rIHN0b3Jl IGFjdHVhbGx5IHJhbiBvdXQgb2YgYm9va3MgdGhhdCB3ZXJlIGNvbm5lY3RlZCB0byB0aGUg ZXZlbnQsIGJ1dCB0aGF0IGlzIGVhc3kgdG8gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB3aGVuIHNldmVyYWwgb2Yg dGhvc2UgaW4gYXR0ZW5kYW5jZSBoYWQgc2V2ZXJhbCBjb3BpZXMgb2YgdGhlIGJvb2sgaW4g aGFuZC4gU3VwcG9ydGluZyBhIE11c2V1bSBvZiB0aGlzIG5hdHVyZSBjZXJ0YWlubHkgcmVx dWlyZXMgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBib3RoIFN0YXRlIGFuZCBGZWRlcmFsIGZ1bmRpbmcgaW4gdGhl IG5hdHVyZSBvZiBncmFudHMgYW5kIHNvIGZvcnRoLCBidXQgeW91IGhhdmUgdG8gZHJhdyBw ZW9wbGUgdG8gZ2V0IHRoZSBhdHRlbmRhbmNlIHVwLiBUaG9zZSBldmVudCBtYXkgcmFuZ2Ug ZnJvbSBOYXJyb3cgR2F1Z2UgbWVldHMsIHRvIFBSUiByZWxhdGVkIGV2ZW50cywgdG8gQkxF IG9yIFVUVSBldmVudHMuIFJlbWVtYmVyIHRoZSBmb2N1cyBvZiB3aGF0IHRoZSBtdXNldW0g d2FzIGNoYXJ0ZXJlZCBmb3IuIElGIHlvdSBoYXZlIHN1ZmZpY2llbnQgYWNjb21tb2RhdGlv bnMgZm9yIG1lZXRpbmcgb25lIHdvdWxkIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgYSBwcm90b3R5cGUgbW9kZWxl cnMgbWVldCBoZWxkIGluIHRoZSBtdXNldW0gd291bGQgYmUgYSBnaXZlbi4uLiBBbmQgd2l0 aCB0aGUgcmlnaHQgZm9sa3MgaW52b2x2ZWQgY291bGQgZHJhd24gZm9sa3MgZnJvbSBhcm91 bmQgdGhlIGdsb2JlIGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgZnJvbSBvdmVyc2Vhcy4gQSBzdGF0ZSBvZiB0aGUg YXJ0IG1vZGVsIHJhaWxyb2FkIGxheW91dCBsaWtlIHRob3NlIGZvdW5kIGFyb3VuZCB0aGUg Y291bnRyeSBTYW4gRGllZ28sIFRhY29tYSwgZWN0Liwgd291bGQgY2VydGFpbmx5IGhlbHAu IFRoZW4gb2YgY291cnNlIGRpc3BsYXkgY2FzZXMgb2YgbW9kZWxzIHJlcHJlc2VudGluZyBS YWlscm9hZGluZ3MgcGFzdCBhbmQgcHJlc2VudCBmaWxlIHdpdGggYWNjdXJhdGUgc2NhbGUg cmVwbGljYXMganVzdCBtaWdodCBoZWxwIGRvIHRoZSB0cmljay4uLiBUaGluayBvdXQgb2Yg dGhlIGJveC4uLiBNaWNybyBicmV3L1Jlc3RhdXJhbnQvVHJhaW4gQmFyIG92ZXIgbG9va2lu ZyB0aGUgbWFpbmxpbmUgd291bGQgY2VydGFpbmx5IGJlIGEgYmVuaWZpdC4uLiBBbGwgdGhp cyBpcyB3b3J0aCB0aGUgaW52ZXN0aWdhdGlvbi4gCgpKdXN0IG15IDKiIHdvcnRoLi4uICAK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:12:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Correction: FGE "Ventilator and Refrigerator" into Forties --part1_d.1acd76dd.2cc57fa0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/18/03 1:12:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:34:15 -0400 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01C394DD.44B67F80 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jerry & Rick, > > On Page 222 of Steel Rails to the Sunrise there is a photo of a PRR L1s = > on the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR taken in Sept 1945, there are three = > FGE reefers visible behind it. All three have 'VENTILATOR AND = > REFRIGERATOR" on three lines to the right of the door. On Page 90 of = > Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940 - 1950's , there is a photo of another = > L1s leaving Capa Charles, Va with an FGE reefer immediately behind it. = > The photo is undated, but the color rendition is excellent, so I'd say = > it was taken post-1950.. Again, the lettering says 'VENTILATOR AND = > REFRIGERATOR" on three lines. > > I still maintain that many of the wooden FGE cars would still have this = > lettering in 1954. > > Grefgg Mahlkov > Gregg, Jerry, and all, Thanks, Gregg. It's great to be corrected here. These photo citations are definitely a move in the right direction. I've never read Steel Rails to the Sunrise, so I was unaware of the 1945 shot. And I wish we could get an actual date on the Dave Cope shot on page 90 in the Don Ball book -- I missed its significance, or possibly skipped it because only a bit of one side is visible, with no car number evident. I've found some defects in my notes/index... On rechecking the 1953 Car Builders Cyclopedia, I see on page 381, there's a 1948-painted FGEX car with "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR". The pattern continues with WFEX. The 53 CBC includes a 1948 WFEX ice reefer with "VENTILATOR - REFRIGERATOR" underneath the black GN herald. Again in 1950 (p351) we see the same usage, except with a GNRy herald. On the other hand, the 1952 WFEX cars shown are mechanical, and only say "REFRIGERATOR." My conclusion: Obviously I was wrong in placing the "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR" only into the Thirties; on FGEX-painted equipment, it clearly survived the Forties. Now the heavy questions will be: 1. Can anyone find "V&R" paint schemes with shop dates later than 1950? For that matter, with a reweigh date? 2. Can anyone find a dated photograph where an earlier V&R paint scheme is running around later than 1950? This is especially tricky because we're talking refrigerator cars. In general, freight cars might keep a paint job for many years, and only be painted as part of a major reshopping or re-equipping. But it appears reefers were shopped at more frequent intervals (to fight corrosion?), so that car paint tended to be kept up closer to the "current standard" at any given time. Anyway, with all this evidence, I'd have to agree with Greg that V&R's chances of still showing on part of the FGEX fleet in 1954 is pretty decent. I've still got problems with the credibility of "surviving to 1959" (as Clover House stated), but it only had to happen once to be true... Again, where are the FGE hobbyists that I know are lurking out there, who probably have primary source knowledge on this? And for those who wonder how anyone can know/care about such minutae.. take heart. I was utterly confused by all this stuff for years, and then started to fight back by organizing a database. As we've seen, it ain't perfect, but it does give me a place to start each time I revisit the subject. Rick Tipton Obeying the academic imperative to know more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing at all . Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_d.1acd76dd.2cc57fa0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/18/03=20= 1:12:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE=20= lettering phases.  Two types of "evidence".
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:34:15 -0400

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Jerry & Rick,

On Page 222 of Steel Rails to the Sunrise there is a photo of a PRR L1s =3D<= BR> on the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR taken in Sept 1945, there are three =3D<= BR> FGE reefers visible behind it. All three have 'VENTILATOR AND =3D
REFRIGERATOR" on three lines to the right of the door. On Page 90 of =3D
Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940 - 1950's ,  there is a photo of anothe= r =3D
L1s leaving Capa Charles, Va with an FGE reefer immediately behind it. =3D The photo is undated, but the color rendition is excellent, so I'd say =3D it was taken post-1950.. Again, the lettering says 'VENTILATOR AND =3D
REFRIGERATOR" on three lines.

I still maintain that many of the wooden FGE cars would still have this =3D<= BR> lettering in 1954.

Grefgg Mahlkov


Gregg, Jerry, and all,

Thanks, Gregg.  It's great to be corrected here.  These photo cita= tions are definitely a move in the right direction.  I've never read St= eel Rails to the Sunrise, so I was unaware of the 1945 shot.  And I wis= h we could get an actual date on the Dave Cope shot on page 90 in the Don Ba= ll book -- I missed its significance, or possibly skipped it because only a=20= bit of one side is visible, with no car number evident.

I've found some defects in my notes/index... On rechecking the 1953 Car Buil= ders Cyclopedia, I see on page 381, there's a 1948-painted FGEX car with "VE= NTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR".

The pattern continues with WFEX.  The 53 CBC includes a 1948 WFEX ice r= eefer with "VENTILATOR - REFRIGERATOR" underneath the black GN herald. = Again in 1950 (p351) we see the same usage, except with a GNRy herald. = ; On the other hand, the 1952 WFEX cars shown are mechanical, and only say "= REFRIGERATOR."

My conclusion: Obviously I was wrong in placing the "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGER= ATOR" only into the Thirties; on FGEX-painted equipment, it clearly survived= the Forties.  Now the heavy questions will be:

1. Can anyone find "V&R" paint schemes with shop dates later than 1950?&= nbsp;  For that matter, with a reweigh date?
2. Can anyone find a dated photograph where an earlier V&R paint scheme=20= is running around later than 1950?

This is especially tricky because we're talking refrigerator cars.  In=20= general, freight cars might keep a paint job for many years, and only be pai= nted as part of a major reshopping or re-equipping.  But it appears ree= fers were shopped at more frequent intervals (to fight corrosion?), so that=20= car paint tended to be kept up closer to the "current standard" at any given= time.

Anyway, with all this evidence, I'd have to agree with Greg that V&R's c= hances of still showing on part of the FGEX fleet in 1954 is pretty decent.&= nbsp; I've still got problems with the credibility of "surviving to 1959" (a= s Clover House stated), but it only had to happen once to be true...

Again, where are the FGE hobbyists that I know are lurking out there, who pr= obably have primary source knowledge on this?

And for those who wonder how anyone can know/care about such minutae.. take=20= heart.  I was utterly confused by all this stuff for years, and then st= arted to fight back by organizing a database.  As we've seen, it ain't=20= perfect, but it does give me a place to start each time I revisit the subjec= t.

Rick Tipton
Obeying the academic imperative to know more and more about less and less un= til we know everything about nothing at all <LOL>.
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_d.1acd76dd.2cc57fa0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:13:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ventilator and Refrigerator stacked on the carside? --part1_94.3e8b05c5.2cc57fe2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/17/03 6:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE lettering phases. Two types of "evidence". > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:37:49 -0500 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C394CD.0042A500 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I (Rick) wrote: > > 3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car = > Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I = > think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a = > pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice. By 1952 (and your = > 1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by = > MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene). > Bob Z. says, > I haven't dug out all my Cyclopedias in storage, but what I do have = > doesn't show the exact phrase "Ventilated and Refrigerated" in any = > pictures. Doesn't mean it didn't exist: I am just confused because I = > have no photos that show it. As I pointed out to Jerry, the photo in = > the Great Yellow Fleet by John H White of PFE's second paint scheme in = > 1911 shows "Ventilated" and "Refrigerator" stacked. In the 20's and = > 30's, "Ventilated Refrigerator" on one line. Late 30's and through the = > 40's , back to stacked individual words. > > FGEX seems to have used Ventilator & Refrigerator and Ventilated = > Refrigerator, but I don't have any dates on photos I have access to. > > Bob Zoeller > Bob, Gregg, Jerry, and others: On review of messages and materials, I was wrong about "VandR" disappearing early. Speaking specifically of FGE-shopped cars, I now have found pix of cars that use "Ventilator and Refrigerator" from 1929 to 1950. I've still missed any citations on "Ventilated and Refrigerator", which may have been PFE's usage. Incidentally, in all my FGE pix "VandR" is three lines on the carside, except for the WFE, where the GN (or after 1950 GNR) herald squeezes them into one line at the bottom ("Ventilator-Refrigerator"). If the "VandR" had been applied to 50' FGE reefers, I have to wonder if it would have been done as a single line -- all my 50' pix seem to be post-1952, and in fact post-1956, when the "AAR bars" above and below the reporting marks were retired for a more modern look. Re-examining built dates on photos, I still come to the conclusion that FGE (and WFE) dropped Ventilator from the lettering in 1952. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_94.3e8b05c5.2cc57fe2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/17/03=20= 6:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] More on FGE=20= lettering phases.  Two types of "evidence".
From: "Bob Zoeller" <bobspf@wi.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:37:49 -0500

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I (Rick) wrote:


  3. If you examine all reefer pix (not just FGE) in, say, the Car =3D<= BR> Builders Cyclopedias from 1916, 1925, 1928, 1931, 1940, and 1953, I =3D
think you will see a pattern that "Ventilated and Refrigerated" is a =3D
pre-WW2 (if not pre-depression) lettering practice.  By 1952 (and your=20= =3D
1954 date), REFRIGERATOR is the common practice (supplemented by =3D
MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR when they came on the scene).

Bob Z. says,

I haven't dug out all my Cyclop= edias in storage, but what I do have =3D
doesn't show the exact phrase "Ventilated and Refrigerated" in any =3D
pictures.  Doesn't mean it didn't exist: I am just confused because I=20= =3D
have no photos that show it.  As I pointed out to Jerry, the photo in=20= =3D
the Great Yellow Fleet by John H White of PFE's second paint scheme in =3D 1911 shows "Ventilated" and "Refrigerator" stacked.  In the 20's and=20= =3D
30's, "Ventilated Refrigerator" on one line.  Late 30's and through the= =3D
40's , back to stacked individual words.

FGEX seems to have used Ventilator & Refrigerator and  Ventilated=20= =3D
Refrigerator, but I don't have any dates on photos I have access to.

Bob Zoeller


Bob, Gregg, Jerry, and others:

On review of messages and materials, I was wrong about "VandR" disappearing=20= early.  Speaking specifically of FGE-shopped cars, I now have found pix= of cars that use "Ventilator and Refrigerator" from 1929 to 1950.  I'v= e still missed any citations on "Ventilated and Refrigerator", which may hav= e been PFE's usage. 

Incidentally, in all my FGE pix "VandR" is three lines on the carside, excep= t for the WFE, where the GN (or after 1950 GNR) herald squeezes them into on= e line at the bottom ("Ventilator-Refrigerator").  If the "VandR" had b= een applied to 50' FGE reefers, I have to wonder if it would have been done=20= as a single line -- all my 50' pix seem to be post-1952, and in fact post-19= 56, when the "AAR bars" above and below the reporting marks were retired for= a more modern look.

Re-examining built dates on photos, I still come to the conclusion that FGE=20= (and WFE) dropped Ventilator from the lettering in 1952.
 

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_94.3e8b05c5.2cc57fe2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:44:46 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] PS-2 covered hoppers brian@bluemoon.net writes: > There were also early railroad specific covered hoppers such as the PRR H30 but to model those cars you will have to use resin or brass. Hope this helps. > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY But not forever the H30 and H30a is coming in plastic... As a quality kit, not a 70's type tooled car... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:20:05 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Humpyyard.com turnout controls Bob, The MP had what I think was a Saxby & Farmer machine in Tower 74 in Beaumont, Texas. I seem to remember that the locking bed was up on the operating (2nd) floor with the visible portions of the levers, behind the levers. I am sure that there were some electric lock components there. I once saw the maintainer lift a locking bar so the operator could move a lever. Over the years the mechanical semaphore signals had been replaced with color light signals, and some electric lever locking had been added to the mechanical locking. The switches, point locks, and a moving point crossing were still mechanically pipe-connected. The levers extended quite a distance below the floor level, with the lever pivots down there, too. Very true, each machine was individually designed, a custom installation. The railroads HAD to cover that cost, but it is another matter for the average modeler to pay someone else or design and build it himself. Steve Bartlett robert netzlof wrote: ....... I'm thinking here of the rod-operated systems, with big floor-mounted levers, which appears to be what the humpyard product is based on. If I recall correctly, the prototype interlocking machines were, in a sense, separate from the levers. That is, the array of sliding bars, dogs, cams, latches, whatever, was located in a room under the second-story room which housed the levers and the operator. > ...but that would be difficult to implement and have a > generalized design usable in many different model configurations. Was it not the case that each interlocking machine was designed for the particular track layout it was to control? No different in the model world, then. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:28:07 +0000 Yeah BUT!!! Isn't Sacraento less than two hours from the greater San Franciso area which is 5,000,000 people or more? I have not been to Altoona in 20 years but it doesn't have that population base in a four hour drive which would take you all day to get there and back. Now if they want to make it a I have some ideas. Run 1361 between Scranton and Altoona. They should be able to get to Sunbury, down to Rockville and out to Altoona. Can't do that NS won't go for it. How about a diesel protecting it so it doesn't tie any traffic up - gauranteed? Twice a week with two days off for maintenance. How many of us would take that trip knowing it could be done on our schedules? And personally I'd feel a lot better if the cars were new and not P70's. Rode enough of them back when and now they are 70 years old. None of us rides in 70 year old autos at 70 mph why trains? A new engine with new cars should reduce the liability rates. Make the restaurant a real PRR theme place. Ever pay $12.00 for a hamburger in the Rain Forest cafe in a mall? Have crossing gates and bells and whistles go off when a train is about to go by. Have every table with a view of the tracks in a tiered setting with plate glass windows along the tracks and around the corners so people could see it coming and going. Have a railfan describe the train going by. Where it is headed, what it is carrying, unusual cars, etc. Put a visitors deck on the roof and charge admission or parking and have radio traffic on loudspeakers and covered for all weather viewing and maybe a copy of the dispatchers board or video of points down the line so people get the idea of distance. Kids today want continuous action and have 15 minute attention spans. I don't agree with it but it has to be considered. Multimedia presentations with lots of glitz and fast paced are better than history lessons. Nothing there sounds like it catches what interested any of us in trains. I didn't start to like trains because of the historic or the people aspect. It was the motion and excitement of going places. How many model railroads are static displays showing the evolution of a type of car like X-29 to X-31, etc. BORING! none of us goes and looks at a yard for trainwatching. We go where the trains move. Have a simulator and charge to drive it. Even Microsoft train simulator is better than nothing. Have a 1 1/2" live steam train in Altoona for people to ride or some SD-45's with cars. I don't see much imagination on display at all. One opinion! > Steve Hanlon writes: > > >Granted, it wouldn't provide the rent of a restaurant, but a sampling of ideas > that would be more appropriate for this space (the former museum building) would > be: > > >Hobby shop > >Local Tourist Bureau > >Book store > >Travel Agency > >Model railroad club (may be too costly; though would draw to museum) > > >the above are not enough to provide he needed income. making the case that > the book store and hobby shop be geographic independent by having Internet > sales makes zero sense. why have the overhead of a very low volume high > rent store when you could simply have the low overhead cost of a website and > web marketing.< > > > rail fanning and railroad preservation is a noble idea that does not generate > enough revenue to keep the places going. look at Steamtown and Strasburg - both > get HEAVY state and federal dollars to keep the doors open. > > > -steve hanlon > > All, > > The idea of having any of the above mentioned businesses are worthy of > investigation and trying to compare Altoona to Strasburg, Steamtwon ect., might > be a mistake. Set your sights higher and look to what has happened at the > California State Railway Museum as a success story. It has a Museum book store > and albeit the book store is not a draw for people the events that the museum > holds. For example I was there over the Labor Day weekend and the museum was > holding some form of a Narrow Gauge Fest, and the book store actually ran out of > books that were connected to the event, but that is easy to understand when > several of those in attendance had several copies of the book in hand. > Supporting a Museum of this nature certainly requires the use of both State and > Federal funding in the nature of grants and so forth, but you have to draw > people to get the attendance up. Those event may range from Narrow Gauge meets, > to PRR related events, to BLE or UTU events. Remember the focus of what the > museum was chartered for. IF you have sufficient accommodations for meeting one > would think that a prototype modelers meet held in the museum would be a > given... And with the right folks involved could drawn folks from around the > globe as well as from overseas. A state of the art model railroad layout like > those found around the country San Diego, Tacoma, ect., would certainly help. > Then of course display cases of models representing Railroadings past and > present file with accurate scale replicas just might help do the trick... Think > out of the box... Micro brew/Restaurant/Train Bar over looking the mainline > would certainly be a benifit... All this is worth the investigation. > > Just my 2¢ worth... ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿŠjË"²Ö§qŠØ¶¬þX¬¿•æ¬ûâ²+†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(¯÷(Ÿ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:34:29 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? Gentlemen- Consider the following: The other major rail museums in the State of Pennsylvania are government subsidized. The Railroader's Memorial Museum at Altoona is supported by admissions, donations, the occasional grant from the NS or the PA Department of Transportation. That businesses in the city of Altoona are looking for ways to creativly contribute to the Museum's stability is to be commended. As for the viability of the Museum one has to look no farther than the recent Railfest Event. The excursion trains were sold out. The first day of the event was rained on and attendance was still impressive, the second day the place was packed. Visitors came from as far away as Washington State and Vermont. Media coverage was the best in the Museum's history. The view from both the cab of Bennett Levin's "Ladies" and the rear widows of the exquisite 120 gave proof that even in the pouring rain people from Harrisburg to Gallitzin will come out and watch the show. The new Management team at the Museum is both innovative and determined to keep the Museum viable. The activities planned and already in the works for the Horseshoe Curve 150th Anniversary are exceptional. The ideas expressed by the list for ways of saving the Memorial Building from foreclosure are all admirable, but in truth "the railroad" and railroad interest businesses can come nowhere near providing the cash-flow a facility of this scope requires to remain viable any more than the starving Artists of New York City could keep the Metropolitan Museum afloat. Cultural Institutions require sponsorships, endowments, trusts and grants to cover the exceptional costs associated with preserving our History. As it is the Museum is running with a skeleton crew aided by a small group of dedicated volunteers. There are no staff archivists, so many of the amazing artifacts that have been donated to the Museum must remain in boxes ( which is preferrable to dumpsters). The PRR wrote everything down and a considerable body of those documents lie stacked but not cataloged in the Museum's archives awaiting the arrival of a full-time librarian. As for the issue of Railroaders vs. Railroading consider this. the Railroader's Memorial Museum is the only Museum in the world dedicated to life on the railroad. Their video library of shop worker interviews gives a more vivid portrayal of what the Dante's Inferno we know as the Altoona Shops were actually like. You can never get such insight from a builder's photo or the two remaining K4's. The fact of the matter is that the guts and the glory of the PRR we all profess interest in is what's at stake when we talk about the viability of the Railroader's Memorial Museum. If the Museum goes the history of the PRR goes with it. The photo archive alone is an irriplaceable treasure. When my collegues and I go in to corporations to make the sponsorship pitch for the HSC150 the first question we get from the young MBA's on the other side of the desk is "what's the Horseshoe Curve?" what we think of as a treasured landmark the rest of the country thinks of as "Huh?" This is but one small reason to keep the Museum alive. So since the floor is open for suggestions, here are some more. This Christmas make it a point to buy something, anything from the Museum Store. Suggest that friends and family members who are wondering what to get you make a donation to the Museum in your name. Instead of going out and tying one on for New Years Eve, send Scott Cessna a check for the hundred bucks a night on the town might cost. Establish a chapter of "Friends of the Railroader's Memorial Museum" in your area and hold a flea market, garage, bake sale and forward the proceeds to the Museum. If you work for a large or midsized company approach them about being one of the Corporate Sponsors of the Horseshoe Curve 150th Celebration. Get involved. Get excited. Get behind whatever it takes to support the Museum. Because ( to paraphrase the great Greg Martin) ifyou don't, the mighty PRR will slowly fade from view the moment we do. Harry Webber Museum Volunteer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Humpyyard.com turnout controls Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:32:01 +0000 At our Saturday meeting of the Chicago Terminbal Chapter we looked at valuation pictures of the Panhandle between 59th St. and the north end. Slightly off topic but at one location a semaphore had the operating levers mounted outside on the ground next to the signal with no portection of any kind. Looked strange. > Bob, > The MP had what I think was a Saxby & Farmer machine in Tower 74 in > Beaumont, Texas. I seem to remember that the locking bed was up on the > operating (2nd) floor with the visible portions of the levers, behind > the levers. I am sure that there were some electric lock components > there. I once saw the maintainer lift a locking bar so the operator > could move a lever. Over the years the mechanical semaphore signals had > been replaced with color light signals, and some electric lever locking > had been added to the mechanical locking. The switches, point locks, and > a moving point crossing were still mechanically pipe-connected. > > The levers extended quite a distance below the floor level, with the > lever pivots down there, too. > > Very true, each machine was individually designed, a custom > installation. The railroads HAD to cover that cost, but it is another > matter for the average modeler to pay someone else or design and build > it himself. > > Steve Bartlett > > robert netzlof wrote: > > ....... > I'm thinking here of the rod-operated systems, with big floor-mounted > levers, which appears to be what the humpyard product is based on. > > If I recall correctly, the prototype interlocking machines were, in a > sense, separate from the levers. That is, the array of sliding bars, > dogs, cams, latches, whatever, was located in a room under the > second-story room which housed the levers and the operator. > > > ...but that would be difficult to implement and have a > > generalized design usable in many different model configurations. > > Was it not the case that each interlocking machine was designed for > the particular track layout it was to control? No different in the > model world, then. > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:47:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? From: Jerry Britton Harry: Thank you for your comments. On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 04:34 PM, Harry Webber wrote: > If the Museum goes the history of the > PRR goes with it. The photo archive alone is an irriplaceable treasure. We all want to see the Altoona museum succeed. That should never be questioned. That said, IF the Altoona museum were to close, all of its holdings, including the "irreplaceable treasure" of the photo archive, would not need to "go with it" unless the management of the museum were selfish, spiteful, and determined that all historical collections "go down with the ship". IF the preservation of the PRR documentation were indeed the primary motivation, and if the closing of the museum was seen as unavoidable, any prudent management of the museum would make arrangements to transfer such collections to other repositories seen as more viable -- the PRRT&HS at Lewistown, the Hagley Museum, perhaps the library at the Pennsylvania State University, and date I say it, the Railroad Museum of Pennyslvania. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Vintage Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:53:16 +0000 Doug Day asked: Just wondering what the vintage was on N8 cabins. Looking at a couple on eBay and wondered when they were built and introduced on the PRR. 1950. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR Fruit & Vegetable Directory Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:32:09 +0000 Here's a tip on an item of interest pursuant to the recent discussion on reefer traffic: ...you might be interested in this book. The full title is "DIRECTORY OF FRUIT, VEGETABLE AND PRODUCE GROWERS AND SHIPPERS ON THE LINES OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD COMPANY". Published by the PRR Freight Department (Philadelphia) in 1912, The bookseller is Allen's Bookshop in Baltimore: Allen's Bookshop P.O. Box 7264 Baltimore, MD 21218 (410) 243-4356 allensbookshop@erols.com The book is 400 pages; he's asking $25.00 for it. Bookseller Inventory number is #016251-10. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:32:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? --- Harry Webber wrote: > Their video library of shop worker interviews gives a more vivid > portrayal of what the Dante's Inferno we know as the Altoona > Shops were actually like. Is there a supposition that in some way that was unique to the PRR or Altoona or railroads? Perhaps there is such a supposition and the "spin" it puts on the exhibits of the museum is part of my discontent. It was in the late 18th century, well before railroads or Altoona, that Robert Burns scratched into a window at a Scottish iron works: "We came not here to view your works In hopes to be more wise, But only, lest we go to Hell, It may be no surprise." The museum chose expend its resources to tell the world that "life is hard, one earns his keep by the sweat of his brow". Some parts of the world already know that, the parts which don't probably won't get the message anyway. That there is an untouched trove of treasure in the form of photos and documents, well, it's untouched. That is, locked away, inaccessible, doing nothing for anyone. Good that it exists, not good that it may as well not exist. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:38:48 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? Jerry- Since many of the Museum's out-of-pocket expenses are ( and have been) being covered out of the pockets of Museum management I take issue with the catagorization of present, past or potential future management being "selfish, or spiteful." The truth of the matter is that when institutions like Museums, Galleries and Libraries close their doors, creditors and their trustees not management are generally the ones who dispose of assets. This generally results in public collections being auctioned off to private collectors and therefore becoming "lost" to public access. In the case of those items not able to be disposed of to cover debt and liability, the foreclosure trustees are generally not disposed to the consideration of historical concerns. Especially when the cataloging of these items is itself in question. Certainly the Museum has not yet at the point where such issues are critical, but to believe that the loss of the Museum would not have a profound effect on the ready accessability to an important body of PRR "documentation" is to deny the reality of any liquidation of assets process. Harry Jerry Britton wrote: > Harry: > > Thank you for your comments. > > On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 04:34 PM, Harry Webber wrote: > > > If the Museum goes the history of the > > PRR goes with it. The photo archive alone is an irriplaceable treasure. > > We all want to see the Altoona museum succeed. That should never be > questioned. > > That said, IF the Altoona museum were to close, all of its holdings, > including the "irreplaceable treasure" of the photo archive, would not > need to "go with it" unless the management of the museum were selfish, > spiteful, and determined that all historical collections "go down with > the ship". > > IF the preservation of the PRR documentation were indeed the primary > motivation, and if the closing of the museum was seen as unavoidable, > any prudent management of the museum would make arrangements to > transfer such collections to other repositories seen as more viable -- > the PRRT&HS at Lewistown, the Hagley Museum, perhaps the library at the > Pennsylvania State University, and date I say it, the Railroad Museum > of Pennyslvania. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:51:45 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR Fruit & Vegetable Directory Ben: thanks for the tip...it's on its way to Delmarva, the Produce capital of the World, or at least the East Coast. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Humpyyard.com turnout controls also B'WAY LTD GG1 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:53:31 -0400 These were reviewed favorably in this months Model Railroad News. They have a detent to hold them at the ends of travel. They are very flexible. I will post more later. BTW his sample of the B'way G went ten feet and then died because of the gear problem. He also mentioned the poor couplers and the fact that the front and back classification lights are missing. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:55:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? --part1_167.271d1f37.2cc5a5b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a most interesting discussion, which I've followed from the position of a lurker... What distresses me is the rusting equipment -- at the Altoona museum and at other respected museums as well. I guess if the Altoona Museum is a "Railroader" museum, and the avowed curatorial concentration is on "Railroaders," is it not perhaps a desirable thing to send he unrelated parts of the collection to institutions which might preserve, stabilize, restore and display them in their more proper context. I recognize that one museum can't be all things to all people. Somebody years ago in Trains, I believe, wrote of the Rail McMuseum which featured a cobbled together collection of unrelated of equipment with little or no thought as to presentation, etc. That would be a far better thing than to let equipment deteriorate to a point where restoration is either financially or physically impossible. My thoughts, anyway... G.F.Payne --part1_167.271d1f37.2cc5a5b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a most interesting discussion, which I've foll= owed from the position of a lurker...  

What distresses me is the rusting equipment -- at the Altoona museum and at=20= other respected museums as well.  I guess if the Altoona Museum is a "R= ailroader" museum, and the avowed curatorial concentration is on "Railroader= s," is it not perhaps a desirable thing to send he unrelated parts of the co= llection to institutions which might preserve, stabilize, restore and displa= y them in their more proper context.

I recognize that one museum can't be all things to all people.  Somebod= y years ago in Trains, I believe, wrote of the Rail McMuseum which featured=20= a cobbled together collection of unrelated of equipment with little or no th= ought as to presentation, etc. 
That would be a far better thing than to let equipment deteriorate to a poin= t where restoration is either financially or physically impossible.

My thoughts, anyway...

G.F.Payne --part1_167.271d1f37.2cc5a5b9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:29:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Humpyyard.com turnout controls --- "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > These were reviewed favorably in this months Model Railroad News. > They have a detent to hold them at the ends of travel. > They are very flexible. Is that "very flexible" as in "bends easily" or "very flexible" as in "can be used in a wide variety of applications"? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Surface Transportation Board to Hold November 19 Public Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:03:49 -0400 Forwarded as information to those who might wish to attend. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 5:04 PM Subject: Surface Transportation Board to Hold November 19 Public Meeting in Quarryville, PA, on Proposed "Enola Branch" Rail Line Abandonment > > > > > > > > -----------------------------***----------------------------- > >From the Surface Transportation Board, Washington, D.C. > -----------------------------***----------------------------- > > > The Surface Transportation Board's (Board) Section of Environmental > Analysis (SEA) today announced that it will hold a public meeting to > receive comments on a proposed draft Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) among > the involved parties for the "Enola Branch" rail line abandonment > proceeding in the case entitled Consolidated Rail Corporation--Abandonment > Exemption--Lancaster and Chester Counties, PA, Docket No. AB-167 (Sub-No. > 1095X). SEA will host the meeting at the Hoffman Building, located at the > Solanco Fair Ground in Quarryville, Pennsylvania, on Wednesday, November > 19, 2003, in two identical sessions. An afternoon session will be held > from 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., and an evening session will be held from 6:00 > p.m. to 8:00 p.m. > > > > Meeting Format: SEA will brief the public about this proceeding and the > proposed draft MOA, and interested parties may submit written comments or > make oral comments. SEA will make a court reporter available at each > session to ensure that oral comments are recorded accurately. Both the > afternoon and evening sessions will follow the same format and agenda; it > is unnecessary for interested parties to attend both sessions. > > > > Pre-Registration for the Meeting: Persons wishing to speak at the public > meeting are urged to pre-register by telephoning (202) 565-1643 to provide > their names, telephone numbers, and the names of any group, business, or > agency they represent, if applicable, and to indicate whether they wish to > speak at the afternoon or evening session. The deadline for > pre-registration is November 7, 2003. Those wishing to speak but who do > not pre-register will be accommodated at each session only as time allows. > > > > In addition to oral comments received at the public meeting, SEA will also > accept written comments on the proposed draft MOA. Written comments must > be postmarked by December 3, 2003. Please send an original and two copies > to the following address: > > Case Control Unit > Surface Transportation Board > 1925 K Street, NW > Washington, DC 20423-0001 > > Please include the following information in the lower left-hand corner of > the envelope: > > Attention: Troy Brady > Docket No. AB-167 (Sub-No. 1095X) > > > > A Fact Sheet concerning Docket No. AB-167 (Sub-No. 1095X) is attached. > > > > ### > > ATTACHMENT > _______________ > > ATTACHMENT > > Proposed "Enola Branch" Rail Line Abandonment > Consolidated Rail Corporation--Abandonment Exemption--Lancaster and Chester > Counties, PA, Docket No. AB-167 (Sub-No. 1095X) > > The public meeting is an important step leading toward completion of the > "section 106 process" of the National Historic Preservation Act at section > 470f of Title 16, United States Code (16 U.S.C. 470f). The section 106 > process contains three phases (the Identification Phase, the Assessment > Phase, and the Mitigation Phase) requiring Federal agencies to evaluate the > effects of a proposed project on historic properties. SEA has completed > the Identification Phase and the Assessment Phase, and is working toward > completion of the Mitigation Phase. > > SEA is also seeking comments on a Notice to the Parties (October 2003 > Notice), issued today, discussing the possibility of converting the rail > right-of-way to interim trail use/rail banking according to 16 U.S.C. > 1247(d), or a privately negotiated trail use agreement entered into after > the abandonment is consummated. The October 2003 Notice clarifies that any > agreement for trail use must be entered into outside of the section 106 > process, but would likely make the mitigation phase of the section 106 > process unnecessary. > > Summary of the Draft MOA: SEA has developed the proposed draft MOA in > consultation with the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, the > Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission (SHPO), and Norfolk Southern > Railway Corporation. The proposed draft MOA sets forth several measures > for mitigating adverse effects to historic properties, including: > > -Documentation of appropriate representative structures on the Enola Branch > rail line to Pennsylvania state standards. > > -Archival research of the history of the Enola Branch rail line. > > -Consolidation of documentation and results of archival research into one > cohesive document to be archived at the SHPO's office. > > SEA will consider all comments on the proposed draft MOA in preparing a > final MOA and concluding the section 106 process for this proceeding. > > Documents and comments previously submitted in this section 106 process are > available on the Board's website. They may be accessed by visiting > www.stb.dot.gov, selecting "Environmental Issues" on the home page, > selecting "Key Cases"on the Environmental Analysis page, then selecting > "Enola Branch" on the Key Cases page. > > Availability of the Draft MOA: The proposed draft MOA is an attachment to > the October 2003 Notice issued today summarizing the status of this > proceeding and announcing the forthcoming public meeting in Docket No. > AB-167 (Sub-No. 1095X). A printed copy of that decision is available for a > fee by contacting D~ 2 D~ Legal Copy Service, Suite 405, 1925 K Street, > N.W., Washington, DC 20006, telephone (202) 293-7776, or via > da2dalegal@earthlink.net. The decision also is available for viewing and > downloading via the Board's website at http://www.stb.dot.gov. > > ### > -----------------------------***----------------------------- > If you have received this e-mail in error or wish to unsubscribe from STB > News, please send an e-mail message to stbnewslistserver@stb.dot.gov and > place "unsubscribe stbnews" as the body of the message. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:02:00 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C3973C.A4587B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, The paint mix that works best for me without getting into drops of this = and drops of that is a 50/50 mix of Poly Scale Zinc Oxide Primer and = Special Oxide Red. Of course, color is in thre eye of the viewer and the = layout lighting. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, October 20, 2003 9:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Does anyone know if there is an off-the-shelf model paint that will = match the X29 box cars? I have the car with the Dreadnaught ends, = RC-7066-14. One of the joys of living in Colorado's dry climate is static = charges. Static builds up and when applying extra thin super glue, the = glue will splatter. Yep, the right side of the car now looks as if it = was painted with texture paint. Time to turn on the humidifier. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C3973C.A4587B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
The paint mix that works best for me without getting = into=20 drops of this and drops of that is a 50/50 mix of Poly Scale Zinc Oxide = Primer=20 and Special Oxide Red. Of course, color is in thre eye of the viewer and = the=20 layout lighting.
Frank Brua
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com <RDG2124@aol.com>
To: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Monday, October 20, 2003 9:04 AM
Subject: [PRR] Red=20 Caboose

  Does anyone know if there is an = off-the-shelf=20 model paint that will match the X29 box cars?  I have the car = with the=20 Dreadnaught ends,  RC-7066-14.

  One of the joys of = living in=20 Colorado's dry climate is static charges.  Static builds up and = when=20 applying extra thin super glue, the glue will splatter.  Yep, the = right=20 side of the car now looks as if it was painted with texture = paint.  Time=20 to turn on the humidifier.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  = 346
PRRT&HS=20 (Phila.) 2036 ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C3973C.A4587B80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] Re: F30a variants Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:38:39 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39763.4A0A4790 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; Just a few more interesting variants that I turned up over the weekend. The PRR maintained a large fleet of the F30d that did NOT end up going to Trailer Train. In fact, many F30a did go there, too. There were several variants to the F30a that existed, primarily in the end sill area due to changes in the brake assembly and location of the retainer. That broad area visible in the metal area of the deck ahead (inboard) of the brake assembly on the "B" end was NOT there on the earliest variants of the F30a (at least to #473765). Apparently, the version that Bowser and Sunshine did is the last version of the F30a casting (see #474265, of final 1000 cars, in Keystone Spring '90 p.17), which has that broad area, and only a single opening in the end sill for access to the brake assembly (take-up spool). A person could drill holes in the end sill and modify the deck to represent one of these earlier cars, but then again.... The F30d did, indeed, have no lip on the stake pockets that I can detect. That in itself makes a nice variant you can model, with either kit. In fact, I can't see ANY other difference! The F30e IS significantly different. The frame side sills are shallower. The side bolster "pocket" is missing. The holes in the center sill are missing. The frame is more angular. Not only are there no lips on the pockets, being joined by a long strip of steel, the poling pockets are semi-circular discs welded onto the outside rear corner, rather than an indentation in the corner itself. And worst, the visible parts of the members on the deck surface are WAY different from any of the other cars. In fact, the deck looks like an F41! What is up with THAT! Look at page 22! It is that weird hat section shaped like an "H" with a long horizontal that has given me conniptions on my F41. Argh. Luckily there were only 200 of these F30e, so I am bagging this one. Happy modeling. Elden . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39763.4A0A4790 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = all;

Just a few more interesting variants that I turned up over the = weekend.

 

=

The PRR maintained a large fleet = of the F30d that did NOT end up going to Trailer Train.  In fact, many F30a did go = there, too.

 

=

There were several variants to the = F30a that existed, primarily in the end sill area due to changes in the = brake assembly and location of the retainer.  That broad area visible in the metal area of the deck ahead = (inboard) of the brake assembly on the "B" end was NOT there on the earliest variants of the F30a (at least to #473765).  Apparently, the version that = Bowser and Sunshine did is the last version of the F30a casting (see #474265, of = final 1000 cars, in Keystone Spring '90 p.17), which has that broad area, and only a single opening in the end sill for access to the brake assembly = (take-up spool).  A person could = drill holes in the end sill and modify the deck to represent one of these earlier = cars, but then again....

 

=

The F30d did, indeed, have no lip = on the stake pockets that I can detect.  That in itself makes a nice variant you can model, with either = kit.  In fact, I can't see ANY other difference!

 

=

The F30e IS significantly = different.  The frame side sills are = shallower.  The side bolster "pocket" is missing.  The holes in the = center sill are missing.  The = frame is more angular.  Not only are = there no lips on the pockets, being joined by a long strip of steel, the poling = pockets are semi-circular discs welded onto the outside rear corner, rather than an indentation in the corner itself.  And worst, the visible parts of the members on the deck surface = are WAY different from any of the other cars.  In fact, the deck looks like an F41!  What is up with THAT!  Look at page 22!  It is that weird hat section = shaped like an "H" with a long horizontal that has given me conniptions on my F41.  Argh.  Luckily there were only 200 of = these F30e, so I am bagging this one.

 

=

Happy = modeling.

 

=

Elden

 

=

.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C39763.4A0A4790-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:45:10 -0400 From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? In a message dated 10/20/2003 5:38:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: > The truth of the matter is that when institutions like Museums, Galleries > and Libraries close their doors, creditors and their trustees not management > are generally the ones who dispose of assets. This generally results in > public collections being auctioned off to private collectors and therefore > becoming "lost" to public access. In the case of those items not able to be > disposed of to cover debt and liability, the foreclosure trustees are > generally not disposed to the consideration of historical concerns. > Especially when the cataloging of these items is itself in > question. Is not some good portion of the archive collection actually part of the Altoona Public Library's collection??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:57:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Reefer Page - Major Update From: Jerry @ Pennsy Earlier today Rick Tipton provided a substantial text update on FGE and WFE. That has been posted. And I just spent two hours of "quality time" with the January 1954 edition of the "Official Railway Equipment Register". I created two tables -- one express reefers and one freight reefers -- ranking the owners of reefers in order by quantity rostered as of 1/54. In express service, the PRR is third. The REA is first. In freight service, PFE crushes everyone! Interesting data...additional comments/evidence welcome! http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for H30 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:09:39 -0400 Kris Kollar asked: "I'm currently working on a F&C H30 resin covered hopper and I hope some one can make me a little smarter on the types of trucks it rode on. If you look on p 65 of the 'PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment' you'll see three different shots of H30s." OK, had a chance to take a look at the photos, which are in PRR Color Guide VOL 2: Photo 1: PRR 254306 Class H30 Confirmed - Class 2E-F10 70-ton coil-elliptic spring truck http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F10- E405873.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= Photo 2: PRR 254523 Class H30 Confirmed - Class 2E-F11 70-ton National B-1 http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F11- E409232A.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr= Photo 3: PRR 254924 Class H30 Class 2E-F12 http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F12-E409232A.gif&se l=ftk&sz=sm&fr= Turn the page - there's two Class H30A photos: Photo 1: PRR 255808 Class H30A Class 2E-F22A or 2E-F29 ASF A-3 Ride Control (Stewart) Photo 2: PRR 255763 Class H30A Barber S-2? Roller Bearing - ECW 9060 close to truck in photo Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:59:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 Paint Color - Thanks --part1_12c.339c3837.2cc5fb26_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all. Thanks for the paint suggestions. About equal parts of the Polly Scale zinc oxide primer and special red oxide match the Red Caboose X29 very nicely. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_12c.339c3837.2cc5fb26_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all.  Thanks for the paint suggestions. =20= About equal parts of the Polly Scale zinc oxide primer and special red oxide= match the Red Caboose X29 very nicely.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_12c.339c3837.2cc5fb26_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:02:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlockings From: Jamie Bothwell Hi All, In case anyone in interested, the MRs with the working interlockings were January, February, and March of 1961. As a bonus the March issue has BP20 drawings in it! Jamie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:05:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? --part1_60.36b099ff.2cc60a88_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Norm writes... > Yeah BUT!!! >=20 > Isn't Sacramento less than two hours from the greater San Francisco area=20 > which is 5,000,000 people or more?=20 >=20 > MAJOR SNIP... >=20 > Make the restaurant a real PRR theme place. Ever pay $12.00 for a hamburg= er=20 > in the Rain Forest cafe in a mall? Have crossing gates and bells and=20 > whistles go off when a train is about to go by. Have every table with a vi= ew of the=20 > tracks in a tiered setting with plate glass windows along the tracks and=20 > around the corners so people could see it=20 > coming and going? Have a railfan describe the train going by. Where it i= s=20 > headed, what it is carrying, unusual cars, etc. Put a visitors deck on th= e=20 > roof and charge admission or parking and have radio traffic on loudspeaker= s=20 > and covered for all weather viewing and maybe a copy of the dispatchers bo= ard=20 > or video of points down the line so people get the idea of distance... Norm and All, I like Norms dinner accommodations, dinner for two, please..! Can we get a=20 small table for the wife and I by the window please (as I slip Norm a twenty= )!=20 3^) he has the right idea. And yes I have been in a couple Rainforest Cafes= ,=20 Orlando and SEATAC South Center Mall... Good Food unique surroundings! One thing is for certain, with the world class act that the California State= =20 Railway Museum is it didn't get this way without some Government grants,=20 private donations, a strong Board of Directors (most whom are interested in=20= trains)=20 and sponsorships... It has a world class photo archive ... and on and on an= d=20 on... It's focus on the restoration of locomotive is not the only thing=20 going on there, it is just one thing. It paints a railroad picture with a b= road=20 brush and thank God there are good men behind it like my dear friend Dr. Den= ny=20 Anspach. And folks come from all over the country and all over the world to=20 see just a sampling of restored equipment, which by the by changes ... and n= ot=20 just the Cab Forward... =20 I believe that Altoona can and will survive if the focus changes from trying= =20 to be just another museum that saves every locomotive and piece of equipment= =20 that it gets its hands on and looks inside the mission statement and thinks=20 more like the BASEBALL HALL OF FAME instead of Rio Vista, Orange Empire, and= all=20 the small time rail parks that house a lot of hollow expensive restoration=20 starved equipment. "Build it and they will come..." Remember it's about the= =20 people...=20 A good restaurant and a nicely done layout such as La Mesa or Tacoma (PSME)=20 wouldn't hurt either... 3^) Okay, who had the hamburger well done...?=20 Just a little more of my 2=A2 worth... Greg Martin =20 --part1_60.36b099ff.2cc60a88_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Norm writes...

Yeah BUT!!!

Isn't Sacramento less than two hours from the greater San Francisco area whi= ch is 5,000,000 people or more?

MAJOR SNIP...

Make the restaurant a real PRR theme place.  Ever pay $12.00 for a hamb= urger in the Rain Forest cafe in a mall?  Have crossing gates and bells= and whistles go off when a train is about to go by. Have every table with a= view of the tracks in a tiered setting with plate glass windows along the t= racks and around the corners so people could see it
coming and going?  Have a railfan describe the train going by.  Wh= ere it is headed, what it is carrying, unusual cars, etc.  Put a visito= rs deck on the roof and charge admission or parking and have radio traffic o= n loudspeakers and covered for all weather viewing and maybe a copy of the d= ispatchers board or video of points down the line so people get the idea of=20= distance...



Norm and All,

I like Norms dinner accommodations, dinner for two, please..!  Can we g= et a small table for the wife and I by the window please (as I slip Norm a t= wenty)! 3^)  he has the right idea. And yes I have been in a couple Rai= nforest Cafes, Orlando and SEATAC South Center Mall... Good Food unique surr= oundings!

One thing is for certain, with the world class act that the California State= Railway Museum is it didn't get this way without some Government grants, pr= ivate donations, a strong Board of Directors (most whom are interested in tr= ains) and sponsorships...  It has a world class photo archive ... and o= n and on and on...  It's focus on the restoration of locomotive is not=20= the only thing going on there, it is just one thing.  It paints a railr= oad picture with a broad brush and thank God there are good men behind it li= ke my dear friend Dr. Denny Anspach. And folks come from all over the countr= y and all over the world to see just a sampling of restored equipment, which= by the by changes ... and not just the Cab Forward...   
I believe that Altoona can and will survive if the focus changes from trying= to be just another museum that saves every locomotive and piece of equipmen= t that it gets its hands on and looks inside the mission statement and think= s more like the BASEBALL HALL OF FAME instead of Rio Vista, Orange Empire, a= nd all the small time rail parks that house a lot of hollow expensive restor= ation starved equipment.  "Build it and they will come..." Remember it'= s about the people...

A good restaurant and a nicely done layout such as La Mesa or Tacoma (PSME)=20= wouldn't hurt either... 3^) Okay, who had the hamburger well done...?

Just a little more of my 2=A2 worth...

Greg Martin 
--part1_60.36b099ff.2cc60a88_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:45:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] F30d photo posted --part1_1ad.1b242547.2cc621df_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys, I posted a photo of a F30D to the files section of the PRRPRO list homesite today from work... Have a look. Greg Martin --part1_1ad.1b242547.2cc621df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys,

I posted a photo of a F30D to the files section of the PRRPRO list homesite=20= today from work... Have a look.

Greg Martin  --part1_1ad.1b242547.2cc621df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:25:36 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PEOPLE, IT'S ABOUT THE TRAINS. I climbed up into the cab of of 5711 holding my wife's purse. It was the perfect cover for my DV camera on the 3-day train ride from LA. I was ready for my ride up the mountain at the invitation of Eric Levin, master of Levin's Ladies. The cab had a full-house of Amtrak supervisors, stand-by engineers, Motive Power supervisors, all the specialists required to safely and securely get the Railfest Excursion up to the Horseshoe Curve, over the mountain to Gallitzin and back. Eric asked me where I wanted to set up. I told him near the nearest AC Outlet, (I had just cooked my camera's battery plugging it into a dead outlet in one of the coaches) "There's no AC up here," Eric laughed, looking for all the world like a battle wearied George Clooney. He had just finished the dangerous task of crawling under his locomotives to effect the coupling up of the first runaround of the day. His manner was easy, yet tight. Obviously a man who took nothing for granted. The atmosphere in the cab was jovial as the specticle of a guy who had come all the way across the country to video the Horseshoe Curve only to cook his camera at the moment of truth became too good to hold in. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PEOPLE, IT'S ABOUT THE TRAINS. Railroad men are not like you or I. They don't work 9 to five. They don't teach Sunday School. They don't get to count on having Thanksgiving dinner at home. They do the job. Nerve-wracking, tension-filled, dangerous. The only weak hands in the cab that rainy Saturday afternoon was myself. The trainline blew twice. Right on time. The extra bodies in the cab went back to the rear locomotive. Eric looked back down the platform at his train, released his air, made a thousand tiny calculations in his head about slack and rain slicked rails, yelled out "clear" to his stand-by engineer, checked the amp gauges for load, squeezed back notch by notch on the throttle, focused on the crossovers ahead and eased the excursion train out of Altoona station. E8's are old school. No computer consoles or digital assists. To move out smooth enough to not spill a topped off drink in the Warrior Ridge you've got to know your stuff. Eric knows his stuff. As we passed MP 237 I leaned over and asked Eric if.... WHO CARES WHAT I ASKED? IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PEOPLE. IT'S ABOUT THE TRAINS. THERE WAS NO VIDEO RECORD FROM THE CAB OF 5711 AS WE ROUNDED THE HORSESHOE CURVE. I WILL TAKE THAT EXPERIENCE WITH ME WHEN I GO. SO WHAT? MY 20 MONTH OLD DAUGHTER WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE BOOMING AROUND WILKES CURVE IN RUN 8. WHO CARES? IT'S NOT ABOUT ME. IT'S ABOUT THE TRAINS. IT'S NOT ABOUT J.EDGAR THOMSON, IT'S ABOUT THE SPIKES. IT'S NOT ABOUT ERIC, IT'S ABOUT 5711 LOOSING IT'S WAX JOB IN THE RAIN. NOBODY WILL EVER KNOW WHAT WAS SAID IN THE CAB THAT DAY. IT'S NOT ABOUT PEOPLE. IT'S ABOUT... Harry TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:47:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 12:05 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Make the restaurant a real PRR theme place.=A0 Ever pay $12.00 for a=20= > hamburger in the Rain Forest cafe in a mall?=A0 Have crossing gates = and=20 > bells and whistles go off when a train is about to go by. Have every=20= > table with a view of the tracks in a tiered setting with plate glass=20= > windows along the tracks and around the corners so people could see it > coming and going?=A0 Have a railfan describe the train going by.=A0 = Where=20 > it is headed, what it is carrying, unusual cars, etc.=A0 Put a = visitors=20 > deck on the roof and charge admission or parking and have radio=20 > traffic on loudspeakers and covered for all weather viewing and maybe=20= > a copy of the dispatchers board or video of points down the line so=20 > people get the idea of distance... > > I like Norms dinner accommodations, dinner for two, please..!=A0 Can = we=20 > get a small table for the wife and I by the window please (as I slip=20= > Norm a twenty)! 3^)=A0 he has the right idea. And yes I have been in a=20= > couple Rainforest Cafes, Orlando and SEATAC South Center Mall... Good=20= > Food unique surroundings! Problem is, the museum is looking to have the restaurant located in the=20= building vacated by the former museum...not a new structure along the=20 tracks. The old building is a good 100 yards or so back from the=20 tracks. The angle would prevent viewing more than a small segment of=20 the tracks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:27:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Yet Another FGE Paint Scheme Question From: Jerry Britton Gang, I know some of you are growing weary of reefers, but I have a clarification question about Fruit Growers Express... For many years the sides carried the words "REFRIGERATOR" and "VENTILATOR". Later it was just "REFRIGERATOR". When developing the Reefer page, we originally thought the changeover was around 1959. Our current thinking is 1950-52ish. We have citations of photos of the earlier scheme in later years, which is to be expected. Can anyone cite photos of the later scheme -- just REFRIGERATOR -- circa the early 1950's. In my case, I just want to be sure it was pre-1954 before I order a dozen ready-to-run cars in the later scheme!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:34:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another FGE Paint Scheme Question From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 09:27 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > For many years the sides carried the words "REFRIGERATOR" and > "VENTILATOR". Later it was just "REFRIGERATOR". > > When developing the Reefer page, we originally thought the changeover > was around 1959. Our current thinking is 1950-52ish. Gang, every topic has its expert... There have been citations for great books on the PFE and the SFRD, but none on the FGE. However, one responder indicated that a Bill Welch had authored a 52 page handout on FGE. It was available at Naperville last year and will again this year. He is also offering it mail order. (My check will be in the mail tomorrow!) Another respondent recalls the changeover was 1952. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] researching Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:37:11 +0000 What can I use to locate various sidings within a stretch of businesses listed in the CT1000? Does aanything indidcate if they were on the east or west side of the mains? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:46:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] researching From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 10:37 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > What can I use to locate various sidings within a stretch of businesses > listed in the CT1000? Does aanything indidcate if they were on the > east or > west side of the mains? Unfortunately, the CT1000 listings do not indicate which side of the tracks the entities are on. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] researching Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:19:10 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C397EF.0F27CB70 Content-Type: text/plain Norm; The track chart will show you how they were situated; east, west side, etc., plus whether they were facing or trailing switches, with the CT1000 having the distances they were located from one another and key landmarks, etc. You can then measure it all out on a topo map and/or by walking the area. Elden -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:37 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] researching What can I use to locate various sidings within a stretch of businesses listed in the CT1000? Does aanything indidcate if they were on the east or west side of the mains? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C397EF.0F27CB70 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] researching

Norm;
The track chart will show you how they were = situated; east, west side, etc., plus whether they were facing or = trailing switches, with the CT1000 having the distances they were = located from one another and key landmarks, etc.  You can then = measure it all out on a topo map and/or by walking the area.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:37 AM
To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] researching

What can I use to locate various sidings within a = stretch of businesses
listed in the CT1000?  Does aanything indidcate = if they were on the east or
west side of the mains? Thanks, Norm Bell

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C397EF.0F27CB70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Hagley PRR Exhibit Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:03:43 -0400 Hadn't seen this mentioned on the list. Looks pretty interesting. October 25 - Saturday - 9:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Machine, Monument, and Metropolis opening Henry Clay Mill All aboard at Hagley for a trip back to the days when most Americans traveled by rail and train stations were grand. Hagley's new exhibit on New York's Pennsylvania Station will explore the engineering feat that brought the Pennsylvania Railroad into Manhattan. The highlight of Hagley's Penn Station exhibit will be an HO scale replica of the terminal, circa 1929, complete with operating trains. The model will show the way the station's innovative design facilitated the flow of people and baggage, providing the ultimate in service and style. This new exhibit, opening on Saturday, October 25, in Henry Clay Mill and running daily from 9:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. throughout 2004 (with special winter hours), will trace the history of the engineering feat that brought the Pennsylvania Railroad into Manhattan. http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/events.html Mikr Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another FGE Paint Scheme Question Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:54:32 -0500 Jerry wrote: > > Gang, every topic has its expert... > > There have been citations for great books on the PFE and the SFRD, but > none on the FGE. > > However, one responder indicated that a Bill Welch had authored a 52 > page handout on FGE. It was available at Naperville last year and will > again this year. He is also offering it mail order. (My check will be > in the mail tomorrow!) > Jerry--Bill Welch is a lister on the Steam Freight Cars list at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/STMFC and has stated he really didn't intend to get into the publishing business when he generated his FGE research. After receiving his documentation, with his permission, can you post it where we can all get to it? Some of Bill's excellent model work can be seen at http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/models/reefers/modelsreefersmain.html . Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:59:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic From: Jerry Britton Next twist in the on-going reefer saga... Gregg and others in the know...how does meat traffic compare to produce traffic in terms of handling? I'm thinking of the meat reefers like Rath, Pepper, Kahn's, Swift, etc.). I'm guessing with produce a large shipment arrives at a port or something (ex. Baltimore) and reefers are loaded and blocked for specific destinations for distribution. Bananas are an example. In 1954, there are solid blocks of bananas in trains BF-7 (for Loch Haven), EC-3 (for Sunbury), and VL-9 (for Johnstown). And that just covers the 3-11 shift out of Enola! Would meats be handled more like a traditional box car load, where a single box would go to plant A and then be moved specifically to customer B...other than the fact that they would still travel in a "perishable" block so as to allow for re-icing? I guess what I am asking is, would the meat reefers tend to travel as single cars vs. blocks of several? What other insights can you share about meat traffic? Lastly, train S-83, Wilkes-Barre to Enola, carried a block of "white potatos for Philadelphia". Would potatos have been box car cargo, or ventilated reefer cargo? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:09:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars I am modeling an X29 Express Boxcar in freight car red with Circle Keystone lettering for my 1937 operations. I having trouble documenting car numbers for X29 Express Boxcars in this period. Can anyone refer me to a refernece? The only picture I have located so far is an undated 'builder's photo' showing X29 #100688 that has express trucks of some type. (Rob Schoenberg's PRR Railfan.net.) Can anyone comment on these trucks? I was under the impression that X29 REX cars were carried on regular freight 2D-F8 trucks. Here is the link: Thanks, Fred http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=BuildersPhotos/X29-exp_E18473_side_BillLane.jpg&fr= ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:09:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another FGE Paint Scheme Question From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 02:54 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > After receiving his documentation, with his permission, can you post it > where we can all get to it? Once I get it and see how "clean" it is, then I'll contact him about the possibility. At 52 pages, it involved some work. Yet he shares it dirt cheap. Equates somewhat to Bill Kachel's handout on modeling catenary (that is available from Keystone Crossings). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:11:34 +0000 Jerry Britton asked: Lastly, train S-83, Wilkes-Barre to Enola, carried a block of "white potatoes for Philadelphia". Would potatoes have been box car cargo, or ventilated reefer cargo? Either insulated boxcars or uniced reefers used as insulated boxcars. BAR and NH even had some of the red, white & blue "State of Maine" cars equipped with heaters to keep potatoes from freezing during cold weather. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:15:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 03:11 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Lastly, train S-83, Wilkes-Barre to Enola, carried a block of "white > potatoes for Philadelphia". Would potatoes have been box car cargo, or > ventilated reefer cargo? > > Either insulated boxcars or uniced reefers used as insulated boxcars. > BAR > and NH even had some of the red, white & blue "State of Maine" cars > equipped > with heaters to keep potatoes from freezing during cold weather. I have a few of the BAR cars. But the routing on this train suggests that potatos also originated somewhere around Wilkes-Barre. These would not have used BAR cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:22:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 03:09 PM, Fred Talasco wrote: > I am modeling an X29 Express Boxcar in freight car red > with Circle Keystone lettering for my 1937 operations. > I having trouble documenting car numbers for X29 > Express Boxcars in this period. Can anyone refer me to > a refernece? Can't help you with 1937, but the Varnish roster on Keystone Crossings would allow you to search for X29's still rostered in 1954. Any number in '54 "should" be good in '37 (though the reverse would not be true). There were 616 rostered in 1954. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:29:02 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: I have a few of the BAR cars. But the routing on this train suggests that potatoes also originated somewhere around Wilkes-Barre. These would not have used BAR cars. Who said anything about using BAR cars? IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF EQUIPMENT USED IN THIS SERVICE! Without pictures or consist book, I can only guess, but a reasonable guess would be to use Fruit Growers Reefers uniced, or ordinary boxcars if weather conditions permit. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:44:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Hi Jerry, Thanks for the info. I have already tried your database, and althopugh it does provide a great deal of info, the X29 road #s just do not look right to me. The database returns 4 digit road #s in the 2000, and 9000 series, and the few models and photos I have seen are six digit #s starting with 100 (ie: 100688) Was there a renumbering? Are youaware of a 1930spassenger car listing that I may be able to obtain for future reference for my modeling era (1937)? Thanks!! Fred --- Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 03:09 PM, Fred > Talasco wrote: > > > I am modeling an X29 Express Boxcar in freight car > red > > with Circle Keystone lettering for my 1937 > operations. > > I having trouble documenting car numbers for X29 > > Express Boxcars in this period. Can anyone refer > me to > > a refernece? > > Can't help you with 1937, but the Varnish roster on > Keystone Crossings > would allow you to search for X29's still rostered > in 1954. Any number > in '54 "should" be good in '37 (though the reverse > would not be true). > There were 616 rostered in 1954. > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N > Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" > mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:50:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 03:44 PM, Fred Talasco wrote: > Thanks for the info. I have already tried your > database, and althopugh it does provide a great deal > of info, the X29 road #s just do not look right to me. > The database returns 4 digit road #s in the 2000, and > 9000 series, and the few models and photos I have seen > are six digit #s starting with 100 (ie: 100688) > > Was there a renumbering? Are youaware of a > 1930spassenger car listing that I may be able to > obtain for future reference for my modeling era > (1937)? Probably is attributable to a renumbering. Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) which would give you valid number ranges. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:01:47 -0400 Jerry, Fresh fruits and vegetables went to two types of consignees. The largest portion, by 1954, would have gone to grocery store chain warehouses, like Acme Markets of Philadelphia. The remainder would have gone to the "Pennsylvania Produce Terminals" in the larger cities, where it was sold by brokers who maintained offices and leased trackage in the terminal and sold to restaurants and independent grocery stores. The only PRR port involved by then was Wilmington, DE, for bananas, and to my knowledge they went principally by truck no further than Pittsburgh. As to meat, it also moved to two types of consignees. Again, most of what moved were whole carcasses on meat rails at that time, which went either to local butchering plants of the meatpackers, where it was packaged for delivery to restaurants and independent grocers, who may have received whole sides. Again some went to the grocery chain warehouses, most of whom did their own butchering and packaging. This whole meat business has fundamentally changed in the past 50 years, much more than the fresh fruit and vegetable business, as the meat industry discovered that with the ability to ship frozen meat, it was much cheaper to ship the finished product than live animals across the country! My knowledge of the meat trade is more general than that of the fresh fruit and vegetable trade, as the latter was my sales responsibility at the PRR for two years. BTW, loaded reefers would travel in solid blocks wherever possible, as they did require inspection at every major yard or enroute if it was over 24 hours between yards, and of course required ice at regular intervals. The Eastern railroads had a group, the Railroad Perishable Inspection Agency, or RPIA, that handled these inspections, as well as freight claim inspections. The RPIA records were often a big factor in freight claims. Hope this helps you and others understand how this traffic moved on the PRR. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic > Next twist in the on-going reefer saga... > > Gregg and others in the know...how does meat traffic compare to produce > traffic in terms of handling? I'm thinking of the meat reefers like > Rath, Pepper, Kahn's, Swift, etc.). > > I'm guessing with produce a large shipment arrives at a port or > something (ex. Baltimore) and reefers are loaded and blocked for > specific destinations for distribution. Bananas are an example. In > 1954, there are solid blocks of bananas in trains BF-7 (for Loch > Haven), EC-3 (for Sunbury), and VL-9 (for Johnstown). And that just > covers the 3-11 shift out of Enola! > > Would meats be handled more like a traditional box car load, where a > single box would go to plant A and then be moved specifically to > customer B...other than the fact that they would still travel in a > "perishable" block so as to allow for re-icing? > > I guess what I am asking is, would the meat reefers tend to travel as > single cars vs. blocks of several? > > What other insights can you share about meat traffic? > > Lastly, train S-83, Wilkes-Barre to Enola, carried a block of "white > potatos for Philadelphia". Would potatos have been box car cargo, or > ventilated reefer cargo? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:05:46 +0000 Fred Talasco asked: "I am modeling an X29 Express Boxcar in freight car red with Circle Keystone lettering for my 1937 operations. I having trouble documenting car numbers for X29 Express Boxcars in this period. Can anyone refer me to a reference?" Express cars are listed in the ORPTE (Official Railway Passenger Train Equipment Register) vice the ORER. There's a builder's photo of PRR 2185 c. 11/1941 (with 2D-F8 trucks) on page 45 of Wayner's "Cars of the PRR" and on page 46 of the Summer 1988 Keystone as part of Brady McGuire's boxcar lettering article. Other express X29 photos can be found in PRR Color Guide Vol 2, but they date from the 1960s. "The only picture I have located so far is an undated 'builder's photo' showing X29 #100688 that has express trucks of some type. (Rob Schoenberg's PRR Railfan.net.) Can anyone comment on these trucks? I was under the impression that X29 REX cars were carried on regular freight 2D-F8 trucks." PRR 100688 is an odd example - it's one of the last 100 X29s built and features a Climax radial roof (modeled only by Sunshine 26.13, now out of production). Many X29 express boxcars did retain their 2D-F8 trucks; however, the Pennsy mechanical department wasn't above experimenting with roller bearing trucks on express cars. You can model these trucks by modifying Walthers #933-1062 GSC Express Boxcar trucks by cutting off the outside brake hangers. (Compare model truck photo with PRR 100688.) http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-1062 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=BuildersPhotos/X29- exp_E18473_side_BillLane.jpg&fr=clX29- The lettering on PRR 100688, minus the yellow "Mail Storage Akron-Columbus" panel is consistent with that applied to the express X29s up to 1954. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:10:43 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] How to contact Stan Radarywcz Here is a link to the Steam Era Freight car list on most products that Stan R. has in his line. http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/parts/partsmain.html There are some interesting PRR related products but to my amazement it didn't list the rub rails for the F30d and the decals for the conversion, but trust me they are in his line. The rub rails are 45.00 a pair and the decal I believe are $1.00 but I will check. Note the Bowser gondola replacement ends. I will also have an announcement for the next TMK for an interesting PRR Passenger car detail that will make some of us very happy... But you'll just have to wait. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:11:31 +0000 Fred Talasco wrote: "...the X29 road #s just do not look right to me. The database returns 4 digit road #s in the 2000, and 9000 series, and the few models and photos I have seen are six digit #s starting with 100 (ie: 100688)" Again, don't get suckered by that builder's photo of 100688 - IT'S AN ODDBALL! The majority of the express cars were in the 2000 and 9000 series. Additionally, some freight service X29s in the 50XXXX and 56XXXX were pressed into express service, retaining their freight service numbers. Jerry Britton added: Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) which would give you valid number ranges. Again, not the ORER, but the ORPTE for express cars. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:17:46 -0400 Jerry & Ben (Gee, what if I reversed that1 : To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic > Jerry Britton wrote: > I have a few of the BAR cars. But the routing on this train suggests > that potatoes also originated somewhere around Wilkes-Barre. These would > not have used BAR cars. > > Who said anything about using BAR cars? IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF EQUIPMENT USED IN > THIS SERVICE! Without pictures or consist book, I can only guess, but a > reasonable guess would be to use Fruit Growers Reefers uniced, or ordinary > boxcars if weather conditions permit. > > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:17:06 +0000 Gregg Mahlkov wrote: The PRR had three gateways where it received New England traffic. 1. Off the NH at Greenville Piers, NJ, 2. off the L&HR (ex NH) at Phillipsburg, NJ, and 3. off the D&H at WILKES-BARRE, PA. I strongly suspect these are Maine potatoes and the route was BAR-CP-D&H-PRR! A LOT of B&M traffic moved via the D&H to the PRR as well. This all went by the boards with the PC merger and helped kill the D&H. In that case, break out the "State of Maine" insulated boxcars, BAR, and FGEX reefers! Also, BAR and PFE had a reciporical leasing agreement which saw cars moving to where the traffic was, so PFE cars may pop up depending on the time of year. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Thanks again Jerry, My initial attempts at resreach so far have lead me to conclude that there was some renumbering of Passenger equipment between the 1930s and 1950's. I do not have enough info yet to determine if this was general, or applied to rebuilds, etc. In regards to the 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register): Would anyone have any clues as to where I should begin my serach. Is this something a museum or library may have? Or should I be checking EBAY? Thanks!! Fred > > Was there a renumbering? Are you aware of a > > 1930s passenger car listing that I may be able to > > obtain for future reference for my modeling era > > (1937)? > > Probably is attributable to a renumbering. > > Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official > Railway Equipment > Register) which would give you valid number ranges. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N > Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" > mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:15:03 -0700 Guys, I also have a wheel report from NKP Train 68, Peoria to Frankfort, from the same date (7/3/57). Looking at just the reefers and their loadings, we've got: MARX 3056 - Meat SFRD 7231 - Canteloupes MDT 9753 - Canteloupes SFRD 10089 - Canteloupes SFRD 7091 - Plums PFE 98509 - Spuds (that's how it's written!) SFRD 8776 - Spuds PFE 75137 - Carrots PFE 9385 - Lettuce PFE 8191 - Lemons SFRD 9486 - Lemons ARL 1860 - Frozen hides SFRD 10721 - Oranges SRLX 8521 - Lard Obviously, since it's the 4th of July in central Illinois, all these cars are iced. And the cars aren't really blocked very well. They all have a final destination of the DL&W in Buffalo, and they're in mini-blocks by commodity, broken apart by various other cars, especially lumber, furniture, and finished goods. The reefers, even if they're carrying the same contents, are from different leasing companies, suggesting that shippers really didn't care where their cars came from! I'd suggest breaking up your reefer trains a bit more, Jerry! Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of b.hom@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:29 PM To: Jerry Britton Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Jerry Britton wrote: I have a few of the BAR cars. But the routing on this train suggests that potatoes also originated somewhere around Wilkes-Barre. These would not have used BAR cars. Who said anything about using BAR cars? IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF EQUIPMENT USED IN THIS SERVICE! Without pictures or consist book, I can only guess, but a reasonable guess would be to use Fruit Growers Reefers uniced, or ordinary boxcars if weather conditions permit. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] How to contact Stan Radarywcz Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:19:55 +0000 Greg Martin wrote: "There are some interesting PRR related products but to my amazement it didn't list the rub rails for the F30d and the decals for the conversion, but trust me they are in his line." Looks like Ted worked off an older list - I can vouch for their exitence too. "The rub rails are 45.00 a pair..." GAHH!!! NO!!! They're more like $5.00 a pair! I'll pick up his latest list and confirm this weekend at Naperville. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:59:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 04:05 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > > Express cars are listed in the ORPTE (Official Railway Passenger Train > Equipment Register) vice the ORER. I knew they would be in the ORPTE, but thought they might also be in the ORER, which tends to be easier to find. I only recently learned that most of the freight-type passenger cars (R50's, etc.) are also in the ORER. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:01:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 04:17 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > The PRR had three gateways where it received New England traffic. 1. > Off the > NH at Greenville Piers, NJ, 2. off the L&HR (ex NH) at Phillipsburg, > NJ, and > 3. off the D&H at WILKES-BARRE, PA. I strongly suspect these are Maine > potatoes and the route was BAR-CP-D&H-PRR! A LOT of B&M traffic moved > via > the D&H to the PRR as well. This all went by the boards with the PC > merger > and helped kill the D&H. First, I am amazed that New England potatoes would be routed via Wilkes-Barre to Enola to get to Philadelphia!!! Second, it works for me! It would give me an opportunity to use the BAR cars for appropriate service! Thanks, Gregg! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:38:54 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3981B.B97CAB00 Content-Type: text/plain Guys; RE: Meat. All the photos that I looked at for the 50's-60's had one or two meat reefers here and there, as opposed to those long strings of produce reefers. You would often see a couple Swift or other meat cars just stuck in a string of PFE/other produce (presumably!) cars, or elsewhere by themselves in a train. As carried into detail on that previous thread, some of those meat facilities were MUCH smaller than their produce counterparts (I can think of several). In the Pittsburgh example, it appears that the vast majority, if not all produce reefers went into the Pgh Produce Terminal, or perhaps a handful of outlying facilities, while there were meat processors sprinkled all around town, that presumably took in sides on rails and cut them up for distribution to local butcher shops. The Produce Terminal dumped into the Strip District, which had all sorts of middle-men selling to Mom and Pop operations and the growing supermarket trend, and was concentrated there. Swift and Armour both had little facilities that received and distributed meat within a fairly small part of town, located all over. And smaller towns, which had no produce terminals (I've never seen a produce reefer in any photo of the Mon Branch), had their own little meat facilities. That seems to bear out the photos. But, if there is more info on this interesting "M vs. P" topic, I'd love to know more. And, on a tangent, given the recent discussions on hides and offal, what do you think "frozen hides" were used for, and why? Thanks! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 3:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Guys, I also have a wheel report from NKP Train 68, Peoria to Frankfort, from the same date (7/3/57). Looking at just the reefers and their loadings, we've got: MARX 3056 - Meat SFRD 7231 - Canteloupes MDT 9753 - Canteloupes SFRD 10089 - Canteloupes SFRD 7091 - Plums PFE 98509 - Spuds (that's how it's written!) SFRD 8776 - Spuds PFE 75137 - Carrots PFE 9385 - Lettuce PFE 8191 - Lemons SFRD 9486 - Lemons ARL 1860 - Frozen hides SFRD 10721 - Oranges SRLX 8521 - Lard Obviously, since it's the 4th of July in central Illinois, all these cars are iced. And the cars aren't really blocked very well. They all have a final destination of the DL&W in Buffalo, and they're in mini-blocks by commodity, broken apart by various other cars, especially lumber, furniture, and finished goods. The reefers, even if they're carrying the same contents, are from different leasing companies, suggesting that shippers really didn't care where their cars came from! I'd suggest breaking up your reefer trains a bit more, Jerry! Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of b.hom@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:29 PM To: Jerry Britton Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic Jerry Britton wrote: I have a few of the BAR cars. But the routing on this train suggests that potatoes also originated somewhere around Wilkes-Barre. These would not have used BAR cars. Who said anything about using BAR cars? IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF EQUIPMENT USED IN THIS SERVICE! Without pictures or consist book, I can only guess, but a reasonable guess would be to use Fruit Growers Reefers uniced, or ordinary boxcars if weather conditions permit. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3981B.B97CAB00 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic

Guys;
RE: Meat.  All the photos that I looked at for = the 50's-60's had one or two meat reefers here and there, as opposed to = those long strings of produce reefers.  You would often see a = couple Swift or other meat cars just stuck in a string of PFE/other = produce (presumably!) cars, or elsewhere by themselves in a = train.  As carried into detail on that previous thread, some of = those meat facilities were MUCH smaller than their produce counterparts = (I can think of several).

In the Pittsburgh example, it appears that the vast = majority, if not all produce reefers went into the Pgh Produce = Terminal, or perhaps a handful of outlying facilities, while there were = meat processors sprinkled all around town, that presumably took in = sides on rails and cut them up for distribution to local butcher = shops.  The Produce Terminal dumped into the Strip District, which = had all sorts of middle-men selling to Mom and Pop operations and the = growing supermarket trend, and was concentrated there.  Swift and = Armour both had little facilities that received and distributed meat = within a fairly small part of town, located all over.  And smaller = towns, which had no produce terminals (I've never seen a produce reefer = in any photo of the Mon Branch), had their own little meat = facilities.  That seems to bear out the photos.  But, if = there is more info on this interesting "M vs. P" topic, I'd = love to know more.

And, on a tangent, given the recent discussions on = hides and offal, what do you think "frozen hides" were used = for, and why?

Thanks!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com] =
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 3:15 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic

Guys,

I also have a wheel report from NKP Train 68, Peoria = to Frankfort, from the
same date (7/3/57). Looking at just the reefers and = their loadings, we've
got:

MARX 3056 - Meat
SFRD 7231 - Canteloupes
MDT 9753 - Canteloupes
SFRD 10089 - Canteloupes
SFRD 7091 - Plums
PFE 98509 - Spuds (that's how it's written!)
SFRD 8776 - Spuds
PFE 75137 - Carrots
PFE 9385 - Lettuce
PFE 8191 - Lemons
SFRD 9486 - Lemons
ARL 1860 - Frozen hides
SFRD 10721 - Oranges
SRLX 8521 - Lard

Obviously, since it's the 4th of July in central = Illinois, all these cars
are iced. And the cars aren't really blocked very = well. They all have a
final destination of the DL&W in Buffalo, and = they're in mini-blocks by
commodity, broken apart by various other cars, = especially lumber, furniture,
and finished goods.  The reefers, even if = they're carrying the same
contents, are from different leasing companies, = suggesting that shippers
really didn't care where their cars came from!  = I'd suggest breaking up your
reefer trains a bit more, Jerry!

Ray Breyer

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On = Behalf Of
b.hom@att.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:29 PM
To: Jerry Britton
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic


Jerry Britton wrote:
I have a few of the BAR cars. But the routing on = this train suggests
that potatoes also originated somewhere around = Wilkes-Barre. These would
not have used BAR cars.

Who said anything about using BAR cars?  IT'S AN = EXAMPLE OF EQUIPMENT USED
IN
THIS SERVICE!  Without pictures or consist = book, I can only guess, but a
reasonable guess would be to use Fruit Growers = Reefers uniced, or ordinary
boxcars if weather conditions permit.


Ben Hom


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3981B.B97CAB00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:01:10 -0400 Fred, Closest ORPTE I have to your 1939 period is 1944. In the 1944 Register, X29's equiped for passenger train service are listed as follows: 2000-2499 (499 cars) 5000-5018 (7 cars) 9456-9594 (138 cars) 49314-57641 (224 cars) 97749-103324 (167 cars) 566091-574090 (2 cars) Hope this helps you out. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net To: Fred Talasco Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars >Fred Talasco asked: >"I am modeling an X29 Express Boxcar in freight car red >with Circle Keystone lettering for my 1937 operations. >I having trouble documenting car numbers for X29 >Express Boxcars in this period. Can anyone refer me to >a reference?" > >Express cars are listed in the ORPTE (Official Railway Passenger Train >Equipment Register) vice the ORER. There's a builder's photo of PRR 2185 c. >11/1941 (with 2D-F8 trucks) on page 45 of Wayner's "Cars of the PRR" and on >page 46 of the Summer 1988 Keystone as part of Brady McGuire's boxcar >lettering article. Other express X29 photos can be found in PRR Color Guide >Vol 2, but they date from the 1960s. > > >"The only picture I have located so far is an undated >'builder's photo' showing X29 #100688 that has express >trucks of some type. (Rob Schoenberg's PRR >Railfan.net.) Can anyone comment on these trucks? I >was under the impression that X29 REX cars were >carried on regular freight 2D-F8 trucks." > >PRR 100688 is an odd example - it's one of the last 100 X29s built and >features a Climax radial roof (modeled only by Sunshine 26.13, now out of >production). Many X29 express boxcars did retain their 2D-F8 trucks; >however, the Pennsy mechanical department wasn't above experimenting with >roller bearing trucks on express cars. You can model these trucks by >modifying Walthers #933-1062 GSC Express Boxcar trucks by cutting off the >outside brake hangers. (Compare model truck photo with PRR 100688.) >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-1062 >http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=BuildersPhotos/X29- >exp_E18473_side_BillLane.jpg&fr=clX29- > >The lettering on PRR 100688, minus the yellow "Mail Storage Akron-Columbus" >panel is consistent with that applied to the express X29s up to 1954. > > >Ben Hom > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Hagley PRR Exhibit Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:08:21 -0400 Re Hagley exhibit, starting October 25th. I'd wait to go at a later time to give them more opportunity to complete the exhibit. There will be a conference around this exhibit on Dec 5th, which will be announced on all of the PRR discussion groups. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Hawk" Subject: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:00:09 -0400 I am interested in scratch building a model of the PRR standard tool house with the Tudor arch style windows in O scale. Rob Schoenberg has posted scans of the original plans on his website: prr.railfan.net/standards...&type=STRU A front view of one of the sheds appears in the bottom photo on page 88 of Ian S. Fischer’s book Pennsylvania Steam Years Volume 2. My goal is to find a prototype tool house to get construction details and build a board-by-board model. Is anyone aware of any prototypes in existence? A friend of mine photographed one along the start of the Trenton Cutoff in Pennsylvania a few years ago. Does anyone know if it is still standing and if it would be accessible for photographs? I also heard that one is in the Pittsburgh area, reportedly along the old main line on private property. I drove along Route 65 near Conway but was unable to locate it. I’m sure there are others out there, somewhere, any information is greatly appreciated. My hopes are to find one I can photograph and measure both the interior and exterior of the structure. If anyone has photographs of this shed, or similar ones, they are willing to provide copies of please let me know. _________________________________________________________________ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:48:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale 40' Wood Reefers From: Jerry @ Pennsy PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Details are now available on the soon-to-be-released 40' wood reefers from InterMountain. Martin McGuirk writes "Our FGE reefer is a rebuilt car, by the way, which carries its service life well into the late 1960s. Our model features the optional 'sill mounted' Preco fan -- not on these first few runs but will be on later runs -- and the geared brakewheel end. Other features include a Hutchins roof, with the roof hatch guards molded in place." #67501 Fruit Growers Express #1: Features "REFRIGERATOR" legend as applied as of 1952. #67502 Western Fruit Express #1: Features the small, round goat herald. #67503 Western Fruit Express #2: Features the late GN version of the car with the really, really big outlined goat, as applied as of 1967. #67504 Fruit Growers Express #2: Features "VENTILATED" and "REFRIGERATED" legend as applied as before 1952. Twelve road numbers will be available of each. Pricing not yet set. Pre-orders now being taken by InterMountain dealers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Hagley PRR Exhibit Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:47:29 -0400 Re Hagley exhibit, starting October 25th. I'd wait to go at a later time to give them more opportunity to complete the exhibit. There will be a conference around this exhibit on Dec 5th, which will be announced on all of the PRR discussion groups. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:09:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] N Scale 40' Wood Reefer From InterMountain From: Jerry @ Pennsy I wonder if the HO scale folks ever read posts that have N scale in the Subject line. Here's part of an e-mail I received today from Marty McGuirk at InterMountain: "Our FGE reefer is a rebuilt car, by the way, which carries its service life well into the late 1960s. The problem is (and I know this will drive a Standard Railroad nut freaky!) is no two of the FGE cars were exactly alike . . . the cars were built and rebuilt in the Richmond shops and everything -- from the door hinges to the number of boards on the sides -- could vary from car to car depending on what the shops had on hand that particular day. "Anyway, our model features the optional "sill mounted" Preco fan - -not on these first few runs but will be on later runs -- and the geared brakewheel end - -some of the rebuilds had vertical brake staffs an option we're including on the HO model but not on the N scale one. "Other features include a Hutchins roof, with the roof hatch guards molded in place. If you see a photo of a FGE car running with the hatches open it's rare -- and the hatch is being propped open with a stick, bar or some other such stand-in device. FGE cars of this class simply didn't have the hatch latches built into the cars." Now, let's see if those HO folks picked up on anything. In the mean time, N scalers, shhhhh!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:11:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:00 PM, Jim Hawk wrote: > My goal is to find a prototype tool house to get construction details > and build a board-by-board model. Is anyone aware of any prototypes in > existence? A friend of mine photographed one along the start of the > Trenton Cutoff in Pennsylvania a few years ago. Does anyone know if it > is still standing and if it would be accessible for photographs? It was, as of about a year ago. Now where the heck was it? I was driving Route 30. There is a spot where the road is parallel to the tracks, about 100' apart. Travelling east, if I recall, there is a McDonald's between the highway and the tracks. I think the tool house might have been about a half mile east of that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:16:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express Cars I would like to thank everyone who replied and assisted me but on and offlist. The selfless and free offers of photos, spreadsheets, and other info based on others many, many hours of research was truly staggering. It appears that Jerry's wonderful search engine did include road numbers that were in effect pre war (sorry Jerry!!), and that I will stick with the 2000-2499 series roadnumbers, using the the circle keystone O scale decal set offered by Champ. Now if Keystone Locomotive Works will just get those O Scale 2d-f8 trucks into production, I will be all set... Thanks again to everyone. This list is the best place for PRR info that I have ever experienced. Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:26:11 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: I knew they would be in the ORPTE, but thought they might also be in the ORER, which tends to be easier to find. I only recently learned that most of the freight-type passenger cars (R50's, etc.) are also in the ORER. That's true only for some issues. Coverage is spotty, with roads (including the Pennsy) reporting express cars some issues and not at all in others. The ORPTE is a sure bet. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:30:45 -0400 Fran Brua wrote: In the 1944 Register, X29's equipped for passenger train service are listed as follows: <> 49314-57641 (224 cars) 97749-103324 (167 cars) 566091-574090 (2 cars) Note that these are numbered within freight car series and represent cars pressed into express service without renumbering. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:43:48 -0400 Fred Talasco asked: In regards to the 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register): Would anyone have any clues as to where I should begin my search. Is this something a museum or library may have? Or should I be checking EBAY? A railroad museum with a good archive (ex: CSRM) would have these, though completeness of the collection varies museum by museum. They also pop up on eBay from time to time and at railroadiana shows, but be prepared to pay top dollar for copies in good condition. Finally, Al Westerfield offers ORERs on CD for $20. He doesn't have any 1937 issues available, but he does have 1935 and 1940. This might be the easiest and most economical approach. http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/ Click on "4. Equipment Registers on Disc" Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Fred123R@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:53:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Researching --part1_46.3ffe0247.2cc74b33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In addition to track charts, Sanborn Maps in conjunction with the CT1000 have been very effective for me. Although the dates of the maps and the CT1000 may not match, you can identify many different industries. Also, city directories from the year or years you are modeling can give you addresses, which can also help orient businesses. I've used these three sources to reproduce a large Sanborn Map of downtown Williamsport. I've been able to identify businesses using the CT1000, and where that was unclear, the city directories help. Fred Ross fred123r@aol.com --part1_46.3ffe0247.2cc74b33_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition to track charts, Sanborn Maps in con= junction with the CT1000 have been very effective for me.  Although the= dates of the maps and the CT1000 may not match, you can identify many diffe= rent industries. 

Also, city directories from the year or years you are modeling can give you=20= addresses, which can also help orient businesses.  I've used these thre= e sources to reproduce a large Sanborn Map of downtown Williamsport.  I= 've been able to identify businesses using the CT1000, and where that was un= clear, the city directories help.

Fred Ross
fred123r@aol.com --part1_46.3ffe0247.2cc74b33_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:17:30 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29 BX (express box) cars In a message dated 10/21/03 6:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars > From: > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:11:31 +0000 > > Fred Talasco wrote: > "...the X29 road #s just do not look right to me. > The database returns 4 digit road #s in the 2000, and > 9000 series, and the few models and photos I have seen > are six digit #s starting with 100 (ie: 100688)" > > Again, don't get suckered by that builder's photo of 100688 - IT'S AN > ODDBALL! The majority of the express cars were in the 2000 and 9000 series. > > Additionally, some freight service X29s in the 50XXXX and 56XXXX were > pressed > into express service, retaining their freight service numbers. > > Jerry Britton added: > Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment > Register) which would give you valid number ranges. > > Again, not the ORER, but the ORPTE for express cars. > > > Ben Hom Fred, It seems to me Ben and I have worked together on this subject in the past. The news is not good. Taking a fast look at my notes: In 1943, the 2000-2499 series was the only range of the 4-digit "passenger" numbers series that had been created yet (a number of other series were created later). This one group may have come along in 1925 or 1932 -- that's a little shaky. The three (not two) "freight" series were created earlier, but I don't have an ORPTE or ORER as early as 1937. I wonder if this data is on some of Westerfield's CD-ROMs. In any case, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 in Volume 8 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, p 14. Incidentally -- I have enough longitudinal ORER/ORPTE data to downcheck the idea that the confusion is due to renumbering. At least between 1943 and 1958, X29 BX series were being created, but not renumbered. Car count was rising; rumor has it that this was as magazine volume built. One more fly in the ointment: I can't verify that the "Railway Express Agency" markings (which are so popular with modelers) were on these cars prior to 1940 (see Vic Roseman's Guide to the Railway Express Agency). It's likely they were, but we need pictures. Of course, you will also need to find 1937-era pix before you can model. Otherwise you may create something "not seen in nature". Be aware that, before the X29's, PRR had a group of X25's (in "freight" numbers) for this BX (express box) service -- apparently when the X29's replaced them (1925? 1932?), they reverted to freight service (or were scrapped). Some of these are said to have been marked "Adams Express" before Adams became part of "American Railway Express", later renamed "Railway Express Agency". Only picture of this I've indexed is #2404 in the early 1900's, again on page 14 of RPC8. Isn't prototype modeling rewarding? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:17:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 BX (express box) cars --part1_3c.368594d2.2cc7b33a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/21/03 6:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars > From: > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:11:31 +0000 > > Fred Talasco wrote: > "...the X29 road #s just do not look right to me. > The database returns 4 digit road #s in the 2000, and > 9000 series, and the few models and photos I have seen > are six digit #s starting with 100 (ie: 100688)" > > Again, don't get suckered by that builder's photo of 100688 - IT'S AN > ODDBALL! The majority of the express cars were in the 2000 and 9000 series. > > Additionally, some freight service X29s in the 50XXXX and 56XXXX were > pressed > into express service, retaining their freight service numbers. > > Jerry Britton added: > Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment > Register) which would give you valid number ranges. > > Again, not the ORER, but the ORPTE for express cars. > > > Ben Hom Fred, It seems to me Ben and I have worked together on this subject in the past. The news is not good. Taking a fast look at my notes: In 1943, the 2000-2499 series was the only range of the 4-digit "passenger" numbers series that had been created yet (a number of other series were created later). This one group may have come along in 1925 or 1932 -- that's a little shaky. The three (not two) "freight" series were created earlier, but I don't have an ORPTE or ORER as early as 1937. I wonder if this data is on some of Westerfield's CD-ROMs. In any case, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 in Volume 8 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, p 14. Incidentally -- I have enough longitudinal ORER/ORPTE data to downcheck the idea that the confusion is due to renumbering. At least between 1943 and 1958, X29 BX series were being created, but not renumbered. Car count was rising; rumor has it that this was as magazine volume built. One more fly in the ointment: I can't verify that the "Railway Express Agency" markings (which are so popular with modelers) were on these cars prior to 1940 (see Vic Roseman's Guide to the Railway Express Agency). It's likely they were, but we need pictures. Of course, you will also need to find 1937-era pix before you can model. Otherwise you may create something "not seen in nature". Be aware that, before the X29's, PRR had a group of X25's (in "freight" numbers) for this BX (express box) service -- apparently when the X29's replaced them (1925? 1932?), they reverted to freight service (or were scrapped). Some of these are said to have been marked "Adams Express" before Adams became part of "American Railway Express", later renamed "Railway Express Agency". Only picture of this I've indexed is #2404 in the early 1900's, again on page 14 of RPC8. Isn't prototype modeling rewarding? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_3c.368594d2.2cc7b33a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/21/03 6:10:24 PM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers= of X29 Railway Express cars
From: <b.hom@att.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:11:31 +0000

Fred Talasco wrote:
"...the X29 road #s just do not look right to me.
The database returns 4 digit road #s in the 2000, and
9000 series, and the few models and photos I have seen
are six digit #s starting with 100 (ie: 100688)"

Again, don't get suckered by that builder's photo of 100688 - IT'S AN
ODDBALL!  The majority of the express cars were in the 2000 and 9000 se= ries. 
Additionally, some freight service X29s in the 50XXXX and 56XXXX were presse= d
into express service, retaining their freight service numbers.

Jerry Britton added:
Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official Railway Equipment
Register) which would give you valid number ranges.

Again, not the ORER, but the ORPTE for express cars.


Ben Hom


Fred,

It seems to me Ben and I have worked together on this subject in the past.&n= bsp; The news is not good.  Taking a fast look at my notes:

In 1943, the 2000-2499 series was the only range of the 4-digit "passenger"=20= numbers series that had been created yet (a number of other series were crea= ted later).  This one group may have come along in 1925 or 1932 -- that= 's a little shaky.  The three (not two) "freight" series were created e= arlier, but I don't have an ORPTE or ORER as early as 1937.  I wonder i= f this data is on some of Westerfield's CD-ROMs.    In any ca= se, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 in Volume 8 of the Railway Proto= type Cyclopedia, p 14.

Incidentally -- I have enough longitudinal ORER/ORPTE data to downcheck the=20= idea that the confusion is due to renumbering.  At least between 1943 a= nd 1958, X29 BX series were being created, but not renumbered.  Car cou= nt was rising; rumor has it that this was as magazine volume built.

One more fly in the ointment: I can't verify that the "Railway Express Agenc= y" markings (which are so popular with modelers) were on these cars prior to= 1940 (see Vic Roseman's Guide to the Railway Express Agency).  It's li= kely they were, but we need pictures.  Of course, you will also need to= find 1937-era pix before you can model.  Otherwise you may create some= thing "not seen in nature".

Be aware that, before the X29's, PRR had a group of X25's (in "freight" numb= ers) for this BX (express box) service -- apparently when the X29's replaced= them (1925? 1932?), they reverted to freight service (or were scrapped).&nb= sp; Some of these are said to have been marked "Adams Express" before Adams=20= became part of "American Railway Express", later renamed "Railway Express Ag= ency".  Only picture of this I've indexed is #2404 in the early 1900's,= again on page 14 of RPC8.

Isn't prototype modeling rewarding? <stiff sarcastic grin>

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_3c.368594d2.2cc7b33a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:14:06 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic-Taters Arsh taters (Delmarva for white or Irish potatoes, as opposed to sweet potatoes) should travel by ventilator as they need to be kept "sorta" cool...the same for most fresh produce. They were originally shipped in wooden barrels and later in burlap bags, aka gunny sacks, pokes, croaker sacks, etc. Most of the few photos I have seen of Delmarva traffic were wooden FGE reefers. The famous NYP&N ventilated XL box cars were used for the same purposes early on. see: http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/it070027.jpg Delmarva was, and is, prime produce territory. potatoes are still grown here along with other vegetables. Those Wilkes-Barre potatoes may have come from here via Edgemoor in Wilmington. The season will tell you as potatoes are very seasonal. They get planted here in late February and harvested in May. Carolina potatoes are a month earlier and Long Island a month later. Maine spuds are later still. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva correspondent ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:21:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meat vs. Produce Traffic-Taters From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 08:14 AM, James L. McDaniel wrote: > Delmarva was, and is, prime produce territory. potatoes are still > grown here along with other vegetables. Those Wilkes-Barre potatoes > may have come from here via Edgemoor in Wilmington. The season will > tell you as potatoes are very seasonal. They get planted here in late > February and harvested in May. Carolina potatoes are a month earlier > and Long Island a month later. Maine spuds are later still. "Those potatos" were traveling from Wilkes-Barre through Enola TO Philadelphia, so they would not have originated in Delmarva! As Gregg Mahlkov posted yesterday, the BAR shipped New England potatos via three routes, one of which was CP-D&H to Wilkes-Barre, where the D&H had a produce terminal. So these are very likely New England potatos in BAR "State of Maine" insulated box cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:35:26 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses There is a preserved NYP&N --> PRR tool house at the Eastern Shore Rwy Museum in Parksley, Va. It however is not exactly what you are looking for as it has square windows and doors and two different types of siding separated by a belt rail. http://www.parksley.com/seeus.html I have a couple of digital photos you can have if interested. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:09:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale 40' Wood Reefer From InterMountain From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-2-474144290 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:09 PM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > I wonder if the HO scale folks ever read posts that have N scale in > the Subject line. Of course we do, its just that print is soo small in N-scale it can be hard to read! > Here's part of an e-mail I received today from Marty McGuirk at > InterMountain: > > "Our FGE reefer is a rebuilt car, by the way, which carries its > service life well into the late 1960s. The problem is (and I know this > will drive a Standard Railroad nut freaky!) is no two of the FGE cars > were exactly alike . . . the cars were built and rebuilt in the > Richmond shops and everything -- from the door hinges to the number of > boards on the sides -- could vary from car to car depending on what > the shops had on hand that particular day. I believe that Marty is referring to THIS CAR SERIES ONLY. These were rebuilt cars and may have varied extensively. Pre WWII wood FGE reefers fell into three distinct series as I have discussed previously, these cars were pretty uniform and these cars are covered in good part by Sunshine kits in HO. > "Anyway, our model features the optional "sill mounted" Preco fan - > -not on these first few runs but will be on later runs -- and the > geared brakewheel end - -some of the rebuilds had vertical brake > staffs an option we're including on the HO model but not on the N > scale one. See, HO IS better ;^) (heading for the bunker!) > "Other features include a Hutchins roof, with the roof hatch guards > molded in place. If you see a photo of a FGE car running with the > hatches open it's rare -- and the hatch is being propped open with a > stick, bar or some other such stand-in device. FGE cars of this class > simply didn't have the hatch latches built into the cars." Again, Marty should be referring to THIS CAR SERIES ONLY. This may also help clarify the lettering issues. As I noted to Jerry previously, cars were most likely lettered "REFRIGERATOR" and "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR" simultaneous (that is the lettering applied or repainted, not just overlapping due to failure to repaint) due to different service requirements. The IM reefer would not be used in ventilator service, and would be marked REFRIGERATOR only. Cars equipped for ventilator service would have been so marked. Thus V&R vs R is not a "scheme change" but a differentiation in car service. Of course, for me, the IM cars don't exist, so its no big deal...I'll go back to my Sunshine kits... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-474144290 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:09 PM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: I wonder if the HO scale folks ever read posts that have N scale in the Subject line. Of course we do, its just that print is soo small in N-scale it can be hard to read! Here's part of an e-mail I received today from Marty McGuirk at InterMountain: "Our FGE reefer is a rebuilt car, by the way, which carries its service life well into the late 1960s. The problem is (and I know this will drive a Standard Railroad nut freaky!) is no two of the FGE cars were exactly alike . . . the cars were built and rebuilt in the Richmond shops and everything -- from the door hinges to the number of boards on the sides -- could vary from car to car depending on what the shops had on hand that particular day. I believe that Marty is referring to THIS CAR SERIES ONLY. These were rebuilt cars and may have varied extensively. Pre WWII wood FGE reefers fell into three distinct series as I have discussed previously, these cars were pretty uniform and these cars are covered in good part by Sunshine kits in HO. "Anyway, our model features the optional "sill mounted" Preco fan - -not on these first few runs but will be on later runs -- and the geared brakewheel end - -some of the rebuilds had vertical brake staffs an option we're including on the HO model but not on the N scale one. See, HO IS better ;^) (heading for the bunker!) "Other features include a Hutchins roof, with the roof hatch guards molded in place. If you see a photo of a FGE car running with the hatches open it's rare -- and the hatch is being propped open with a stick, bar or some other such stand-in device. FGE cars of this class simply didn't have the hatch latches built into the cars." Again, Marty should be referring to THIS CAR SERIES ONLY. This may also help clarify the lettering issues. As I noted to Jerry previously, cars were most likely lettered "REFRIGERATOR" and "VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR" simultaneous (that is the lettering applied or repainted, not just overlapping due to failure to repaint) due to different service requirements. The IM reefer would not be used in ventilator service, and would be marked REFRIGERATOR only. Cars equipped for ventilator service would have been so marked. Thus V&R vs R is not a "scheme change" but a differentiation in car service. Of course, for me, the IM cars don't exist, so its no big deal...I'll go back to my Sunshine kits... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-474144290-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: Altoona Museum Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:30:55 -0400 Ivan's message is on target in all respects. The financial aspect might come into play here also. I don't know if the museum expected that we would pay for any facilities used during a meeting. After all they were/are having financial problems and were/are looking to raise money, just like any 501(c)3, ourselves included. Our meeting rooms are normally furnished by the hotel, provided we meet certain levels of room occupancy. As Bob B. Al -----Original Message----- From: Ivan E. Frantz, Jr. [mailto:musictrains@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:31 PM To: abbuchan1@comcast.net; PRR4856@comcast.net; RDBru1@aol.com; bobjohnson@alltel.net; blardone@redrose.net; prr612@idv.net; jconsoli@paonline.com; G5s472@aol.com; kksteel@niia.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Altoona Museum Gentleman, I do not feel this is a fair topic for discussion with E-mail, since Fred Shaefer can not give his opinion and he was the one most responsible for the arrangements in Altoona the last time that we were there. But I will add these thoughts from my own perspective. I seem to remember that PRR T&HS members that were attending the Annual Meeting the last time it was in Altoona were offered a reduced price admission to the Railroader's Memorial Museum. But in all fairness, from what I remember from my visits to the museum in Altoona, it would be difficult to hold most or all of the usual functions our members have become accustomed to at the Museum. There just is not enough space for something like the vendors room or the banquet, even if it were catered. Several years ago when the banquet was catered at the Harrisburg Train Station it presented a problem of logistics and parking. I don't think the museum has enough space to have both a model room and presentation rooms available at the same time, unless the "original" smaller museum building were used along with the master mechanic's building. If weather were bad, traveling between the two buildings would not be an ideal situation, as was found out one year when the meeting was held at the Strasburg Inn and there was a lot of rain. I could see holding one or two programs at the Altoona Museum, if a presentation room was available and there was something in the museum that related to the program topic. But anything else would present problems due to space limitations, and travel from the hotel to the museum. Having helped with the planning of at least 5 PRR T&HS Annual Meetings in the last 20 years, beginning with York, Pa. in 1982, I can honestly say that as soon as you start spreading the usual activities out over more than one building/facility you start to run into problems. And if you have a weekend with bad weather it only makes things worse. To account for travel time between facilities schedules must be stretched out. And unless you are willing to provide bus transportation, parking must be considered (although with the Station Square Mall parking lot this is not a problem at the Altoona Museum). Layout tours and facility tours away from the convention site, where bus transportation has been provided, are the accepted norm. These are all topics to think about. I have no problem with going to Altoona again, and using the Museum Facilities if the appropriate space, programs, and schedules can be worked out. But I do not feel that the Altoona Museum can handle the entire Annual Meeting events just on looking at the available space. I do feel that you should get some input from Fred Shaefer about this, since he has first hand knowledge of the situation. Ivan Frantz On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:08:20 -0400 "Al Buchan" writes: > Folks, > > Is what Brad Bower states in his message correct? > > Al > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Brad > Bower > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:44 PM > To: Jerry Britton > Cc: RBurg74133@aol.com; alex@arclyte.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Microbrewery? > > > The Altoona Railroaders Museum is in a financial bind on many fronts > > and it is a shame they are grasping for any kind of support for > staying > afloat. One sad note is that the PRT&HS has ignored this great > resource > as a focal point for possible national conventions. The museum's > facilities were offered > for use by the PRT&HS several years ago when the convention was > held > in Altoona. The society turned their backs on the invitation and > turned > a cold shoulder to their overtures. What a great way to promote both > > the Museum and the efforts of the PRRT&HS would be to hold venues > there. Maybe the PRRT&HS board would see fit to rethink the location > of > a future convention to be held at the Museum before that great > resource > is lost. Some how Camp Hill convention site doesn't cut it when the > > Altoona Railroaders Museum is a viable alternate facility. > > Sincerely > > Bard C Bower > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:14:08 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] How to contact Stan Radarywcz Thanks Ben... Damn Shift key! > "The rub rails are 45.00 a pair..." > > GAHH!!! NO!!! They're more like $5.00 a pair! I'll pick up > his latest list > and confirm this weekend at Naperville. > > > Ben Hom Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:39:18 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C398BB.09EFE990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I believe RMC had how to build an O scale one a few years ago! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hawk [mailto:stonehouse99@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:00 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses I am interested in scratch building a model of the PRR standard tool house with the Tudor arch style windows in O scale. Rob Schoenberg has posted scans of the original plans on his website: prr.railfan.net/standards...&type=STRU A front view of one of the sheds appears in the bottom photo on page 88 of Ian S. Fischer's book Pennsylvania Steam Years Volume 2. My goal is to find a prototype tool house to get construction details and build a board-by-board model. Is anyone aware of any prototypes in existence? A friend of mine photographed one along the start of the Trenton Cutoff in Pennsylvania a few years ago. Does anyone know if it is still standing and if it would be accessible for photographs? I also heard that one is in the Pittsburgh area, reportedly along the old main line on private property. I drove along Route 65 near Conway but was unable to locate it. I'm sure there are others out there, somewhere, any information is greatly appreciated. My hopes are to find one I can photograph and measure both the interior and exterior of the structure. If anyone has photographs of this shed, or similar ones, they are willing to provide copies of please let me know. _________________________________________________________________ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C398BB.09EFE990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses

I believe RMC had how to build an O scale one  a = few years ago!

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Hawk [mailto:stonehouse99@hotmail.com= ]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:00 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses


I am interested in scratch building a model of the = PRR standard tool house
with the Tudor arch style windows in O scale. Rob = Schoenberg has posted
scans of the original plans on his website:

prr.railfan.net/standards...&type=3DSTRU

A front view of one of the sheds appears in the = bottom photo on page 88 of
Ian S. Fischer's book Pennsylvania Steam Years = Volume 2.

My goal is to find a prototype tool house to get = construction details and
build a board-by-board model. Is anyone aware of any = prototypes in
existence? A friend of mine photographed one along = the start of the Trenton
Cutoff in Pennsylvania a few years ago. Does anyone = know if it is still
standing and if it would be accessible for = photographs?

I also heard that one is in the Pittsburgh area, = reportedly along the old
main line on private property. I drove along Route = 65 near Conway but was
unable to locate it.

I'm sure there are others out there, somewhere, any = information is greatly
appreciated. My hopes are to find one I can = photograph and measure both the
interior and exterior of the structure.

If anyone has photographs of this shed, or similar = ones, they are willing to
provide copies of please let me know.

_______________________________________________________________= __
Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard = from American Greetings!
Go to  http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?sour= ce=3Dmsne134


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C398BB.09EFE990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:52:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C3989B.49A7EA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some thoughts after reading all the posts on the Altoona museum: First, someone mentioned that train watching in Altoona is boring - just = NS units and container trains. Just about anywhere in the US you're = going to see one of four railroads - BNSF, UP, CSX, or NS. And one of = four types of trains, for the most part: Intermodal (trailers, = containers, stacks), auto-racks, coal, mixed freight. Most locations = have a few trains per day in repetitive run-bys. Some, near big cities = like Chicago, have commuter, but the busiest lines are commuter only - = no freight. There are some nice exceptions around Chicago. But if we look at what Altoona has to offer for rail fans, we find more = than most locations: We have the museum and Horseshoe Curve. We have = multiple train watching locations through town with multiple street = overpasses over yards. There are a couple pedestrian overpasses, one = with benches and an elevator. There is Amtrak passenger service. There = is heavy duty helper service up and over the mountain. There are = locations like the Brick Yard, the tunnels at Gallitzin, Cresson, etc. = There are two railroad bed and breakfast's. There are still around two = miles of railroad shops. Train frequency is quite high. I'm not sure to what extent the museum has capitalized on all these = advantages, but when a friend asked at the desk, they had no idea how to = get to the Brick Yard or even what it was. Perhaps (or someone = knowledgeable about the area) could publish a train watcher's guide with = maps for the Altoona area that could be handed out at the museum. =20 The major problem the museum is struggling with is lack of outside = funding. I'm not aware of many/any major museums that do well or even = survive on admissions and gift shop receipts alone. The museum = certainly appears to need both outside funding and partnership with = other organizations, both within and outside the railroading community. = I feel that micro-breweries, restaurants, etc. are all fair game, but = should be funded by the outside organizations themselves, not the museum = in any way. Even trying to support the rolling stock displays in the = yard is expensive beyond what they can support. (By the way, what = happened to that Tuscan Red GG-1 they had a few years back? It was one = of my favorites.) I certainly don't have the answers, but hopefully = there are enough creative, experienced people on these lists to generate = some useful ideas. But I do think the museum has to expand their = thinking and efforts beyond the museum itself and the railfan community. = =20 Just one railfan/SPF's thoughts. Now let me climb into my armor, raise = the drawbridge over the moat and wait for the replies! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C3989B.49A7EA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some thoughts after reading all the posts on the = Altoona=20 museum:
 
First, someone mentioned that train watching in = Altoona is=20 boring - just NS units and container trains.  Just about anywhere = in the US=20 you're going to see one of four railroads - BNSF, UP, CSX, or NS.  = And one=20 of four types of trains, for the most part:  Intermodal (trailers,=20 containers, stacks), auto-racks, coal, mixed freight.  Most = locations have=20 a few trains per day in repetitive run-bys.  Some, near big cities = like=20 Chicago, have commuter, but the busiest lines are commuter only - no=20 freight.  There are some nice exceptions around = Chicago.
 
But if we look at what Altoona has to offer for = rail fans,=20 we find more than most locations:  We have the museum and Horseshoe = Curve.  We have multiple train watching locations through town with = multiple street overpasses over yards.  There are a couple = pedestrian=20 overpasses, one with benches and an elevator.  There is Amtrak = passenger=20 service.  There is heavy duty helper service up and over the=20 mountain.  There are locations like the Brick Yard, the tunnels at=20 Gallitzin, Cresson, etc.  There are two railroad bed and = breakfast's. =20 There are still around two miles of railroad shops.  Train = frequency is=20 quite high.
 
I'm not sure to what extent the museum has = capitalized on=20 all these advantages, but when a friend asked at the desk, they had no = idea how=20 to get to the Brick Yard or even what it was.  Perhaps (or someone=20 knowledgeable about the area) could publish a train watcher's guide with = maps=20 for the Altoona area that could be handed out at the museum.  =
 
The major problem the museum is struggling with = is lack of=20 outside funding.  I'm not aware of many/any major museums that do = well or=20 even survive on admissions and gift shop receipts alone.  The = museum=20 certainly appears to need both outside funding and partnership with = other=20 organizations, both within and outside the railroading community.  = I feel=20 that micro-breweries, restaurants, etc. are all fair game, but should be = funded=20 by the outside organizations themselves, not the museum in any = way.  Even=20 trying to support the rolling stock displays in the yard is expensive = beyond=20 what they can support.  (By the way, what happened to that Tuscan = Red GG-1=20 they had a few years back?  It was one of my favorites.)  I = certainly=20 don't have the answers, but hopefully there are enough creative, = experienced=20 people on these lists to generate some useful ideas.  But I do = think the=20 museum has to expand their thinking and efforts beyond the museum itself = and the=20 railfan community. 
 
Just one railfan/SPF's thoughts.  Now let = me climb=20 into my armor, raise the drawbridge over the moat and wait for the=20 replies!
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C3989B.49A7EA80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Maine potato service to Phila. Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:07:05 -0400 Gregg Mahlkov's statement about a BAR / CPR / DH / PRR routing may be right, but it's just as likely to have been BAR / MEC / BM / DH / PRR. The New Haven also had enough invested in this service that it had its own "STATE OF MAINE POTATOES" cars painted up in the BAR red white and blue scheme, but with NH reporting marks and a small script herald. I assume New Haven's Pennsy-bound potato cars would have been floated from Harlem River or Bay Ridge to Greenville. BAR also used a lot of white MDT refrigerator cars in potato service, but by Jerry's point in time of 1954 I think the BAR was using its own cars in the red white and blue scheme. Some of these cars were insulated and had charcoal heaters slung underneath them to keep the spuds from freezing in the winder, which is just as bad for a potato as being too warm. Other cars, painted similarly but uninsulated and stencilled "STATE OF MAINE *PRODUCTS*" would have been used for lumber, paper and so on. Car expert Ben Hom may have more to add about these cars. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Inkaneer@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:12:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Standard Tool Houses How do I unsubscribe to this list? I have been trying to unsubscribe but I keep getting messages from this list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:26:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Maine potato service to Phila. From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 01:07 PM, Doug Drew wrote: > BAR also used a lot of white MDT refrigerator cars in potato service, > but by > Jerry's point in time of 1954 I think the BAR was using its own cars > in the > red white and blue scheme. I kinda like those white MDT cars! Have a couple. Maybe I'll slip one or two into a string of the BAR cars! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:27:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] X29 BX (express box) cars Thanks Rick, I appreciate the reserach and re-research on this issue. I agree that nothing beats a dated photo, but we may never have one... I will keep searching though. I love this reserach and once I get my hands ona copy of the ORER and ORPTE, I will try to set up some info on the net for others to reference. Fred Fred, It seems to me Ben and I have worked together on this subject in the past. The news is not good. Taking a fast look at my notes: In 1943, the 2000-2499 series was the only range of the 4-digit "passenger" numbers series that had been created yet (a number of other series were created later). This one group may have come along in 1925 or 1932 -- that's a little shaky. The three (not two) "freight" series were created earlier, but I don't have an ORPTE or ORER as early as 1937. I wonder if this data is on some of Westerfield's CD-ROMs. In any case, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 in Volume 8 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, p 14. Incidentally -- I have enough longitudinal ORER/ORPTE data to downcheck the idea that the confusion is due to renumbering. At least between 1943 and 1958, X29 BX series were being created, but not renumbered. Car count was rising; rumor has it that this was as magazine volume built. One more fly in the ointment: I can't verify that the "Railway Express Agency" markings (which are so popular with modelers) were on these cars prior to 1940 (see Vic Roseman's Guide to the Railway Express Agency). It's likely they were, but we need pictures. Of course, you will also need to find 1937-era pix before you can model. Otherwise you may create something "not seen in nature". Be aware that, before the X29's, PRR had a group of X25's (in "freight" numbers) for this BX (express box) service -- apparently when the X29's replaced them (1925? 1932?), they reverted to freight service (or were scrapped). Some of these are said to have been marked "Adams Express" before Adams became part of "American Railway Express", later renamed "Railway Express Agency". Only picture of this I've indexed is #2404 in the early 1900's, again on page 14 of RPC8. Isn't prototype modeling rewarding? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR employee research Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:23:10 +0000 Just came across this info at the state archives web site in Harrisburg and thought it might be of value to someone: Pennsylvania Railroad Voluntary Relief Department Enrollment Cards The Pennsylvania Railroad Company's Voluntary Relief Department was established on February 1, 1886. An insurance plan providing sick and death benefits to the worker or his family the Voluntary Relief Department was funded by the company and voluntary contributions from the employees. The file cards of this fund are arranged in five file units and there under in alphabetical order by surname of person. These titles were written on the original card cabinet drawers. 1.) Deceased and Left Service File, 2.) Deceased and Left Service File, 3.) Left Service File, 4.) Left Service Since 1959 File, 5.) Relief Members to the Norfolk and Western Railroad Company 10/16/1964. Their subdivision by the company was apparently based upon employees' dates and circumstances of service, dates of death, and federal government pension and retirement regulations. Because of the number of cards involved and the size of the file, it is impossible to determine the exact time periods covered by the files. Service with the company by employees however, dates back to at least 1865. Likewise, because membership was voluntary, not all employees of the railroad will be found on these cards, even though coverage was system wide. None of the cards can be made available to the public unless the employee had been dead for at least twenty-five years. Information appearing on each set of cards includes the following: Deceased and Left Service File (Subseries 1) Deceased and Left Service File (Subseries 2) Cards are restricted Left Service File (Subseries 3) Left Service Since 1959 File (Subseries 4) Cards are restricted Relief Members to Norfolk and Western Railroad Company (Subseries 5) Cards are restricted If you would like to have the cards searched, please call the Archives at (717) 783-3281. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4s 5493 List I plan on modeling, sooner or later, K4s 5493. During the mid-late 1930's this particular K4s was the one that hauled the one and only? Welded 250P75 Tender. For the Locomotive I plan on using a excess PFM K4 I have on hand. For the 250P75, I have the Railworks Tender. This loco, as is, represents the 1928ish era K4s, more or less. To represent the K4s of the later 30's I need to add the Stoker Motor and Lubricator. Both parts are Cal Scale I presume. I never added a Lubricator before on any of my K4s's. It looks rather easy to add but what do you guys who done this before do for the walkway modifications? And for working linkage from the lubricator to the Valve gear? I could cheat and use a post war PFM K4 Chassis with exchange of a Prewar Pilot and Prewar Boiler but I don't want to mess up any of my other already finished K's of varied looks. So I will put the little bit of work needed into the Prewar Chasis to represent the 5493. Any tips are appreciated....Thanks,... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:24:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District From: Jerry Britton The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District was mentioned in our reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two blocks...one destined for the produce terminal and the other for the strip district. As mentioned, the first block would be nearly all reefers, bringing all sorts of produce to the wholesale market. What all types of cars would have gone to the strip district? Was this just produce as well, or meats, or what? PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast and reliable EMD F7's, don't you think? In other news, I think my S-83 bringing potatos from Wilkes-Barre to Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale 40' Wood Reefer From InterMountain Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:47:39 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 21 Oct, "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > I wonder if the HO scale folks ever read posts that have N scale in the > Subject line. Actually, they do; I get HO answers to N questions all the time... Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:07:21 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C398D8.19DD0960 Content-Type: text/plain Jerry; The Strip received lots of produce, but also meat, as they did have refrigeration facilities around the yard that stored both. The Strip was only separated by the final destination, as both, I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then classified on certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, or even other alternative destinations (there were other consignees around there and peripheral to the Strip). I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman at the time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the choicer assignments. Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting secondary assignments due to the break-down rate. Although ultimately, the actual area of assignment would have determined the real assignments. For instance, although I do not know where things were assigned in your time frame, by mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks. Thus, the vast majority of trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at one of those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or the other. Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what were the primary and secondary power units assigned? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:25 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District was mentioned in our reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two blocks...one destined for the produce terminal and the other for the strip district. As mentioned, the first block would be nearly all reefers, bringing all sorts of produce to the wholesale market. What all types of cars would have gone to the strip district? Was this just produce as well, or meats, or what? PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast and reliable EMD F7's, don't you think? In other news, I think my S-83 bringing potatos from Wilkes-Barre to Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C398D8.19DD0960 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip = District

Jerry;
The Strip received lots of produce, but also meat, = as they did have refrigeration facilities around the yard that stored = both.  The Strip was only separated by the final destination, as = both, I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then = classified on certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, = or even other alternative destinations (there were other consignees = around there and peripheral to the Strip).

I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman at the = time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the = choicer assignments.  Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been = getting secondary assignments due to the break-down rate.  = Although ultimately, the actual area of assignment would have = determined the real assignments.  For instance, although I do not = know where things were assigned in your time frame, by mine the Alco = cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and almost all = FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks.  Thus, the vast majority of = trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at one = of those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or the = other.  Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what = were the primary and secondary power units assigned?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] =
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:25 PM
To: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & = Strip District

The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District = was mentioned in our
reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two = blocks...one destined for the
produce terminal and the other for the strip = district.

As mentioned, the first block would be nearly all = reefers, bringing all
sorts of produce to the wholesale market.

What all types of cars would have gone to the strip = district? Was this
just produce as well, or meats, or what?

PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast and = reliable EMD F7's, don't
you think?

In other news, I think my S-83 bringing potatos from = Wilkes-Barre to
Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE cars) will = get an Alco
FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C398D8.19DD0960-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:11:41 +0000 MY weird mind is at it again and wondered if anybody has tried this. It looks to me from the diagrams on Rob's web site that an MP-54 could be made fairly easily from a Bachman P70 coach. The round windows would have to be inserted in the ends, the end side window moved and roughly 16' removed from the car. The window spacing is fairly close. The box headlight could be built up or cast for multiples. It doesn't appear to be a hard job. Any thoughts? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! 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From: "Jeff Smith" Subject: [PRR] Express X-29 paint schemes Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:14:16 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C398BF.EC4FE3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please excuse me if this topic was just recently discussed. I am new to = the list and would like to know if the paint schemes on the X-29 express = cars were different than the freight cars. Where there any special = markings? I realize that some had Railway Express Agency on them. They = are obviously express cars. date- 1950's Thanks, Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C398BF.EC4FE3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please excuse me if this topic was just = recently=20 discussed.  I am new to the list and would like to know if the = paint=20 schemes on the X-29 express cars were different than the freight = cars. =20 Where there any special markings?  I realize that some had Railway = Express=20 Agency on them.  They are obviously express cars.
 
date- 1950's
 
Thanks,
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C398BF.EC4FE3E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Cessna" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:23:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C398C1.43131520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings All, Bill Bigler asked what happened to the Tuscan GG1 we had here in the = yard. It is on a siding about 8 blocks from the museum along with most = of the rest of our rolling stock collection. This was all moved last = year as we anticipated construction of our Quarter Roundhouse and = turntable to get underway much sooner than it is going to. The rolling = stock is actually going to be moved on November 13 to the lead just = outside the museum yard as the location in which it is now stored must = be vacated. Anyone with nothing better to do that wants to see that = move take place should be here that day. I do not know at this time = when NS plans the move as the GG-1 must actually be rerailed as part of = the process. It was derailed in the original move. For everyone's info, the roundhouse construction is scheduled for 2004 = along with the turntable. All the funding is in place to accomplish = this project. The turntable will come here from the abandoned shop in = Pen Argyl. Financially, we are making progress. The coming year will see the 150th = birthday of the Horseshoe Curve and we hope to involve corporate America = in the sponsorship of this year-long celebration to a level we have = never done before. We are exploring the best use of the original museum = building to include food service (which the museum has always lacked). = The microbrewery story was really a front page news story made from no = story. It is simply one of many ideas that have been presented to us = for use of the original building and we will discuss them all. We plan = to put no cash into any of these deals. What we have to offer a lessee = is great real estate that is not as far from the mainline as some of you = think and does afford a view of that mainline from inside the building. = That will all change with the roundhouse construction as the view then = will be of our 100ft turntable that will be less than 50 ft from the = glass wall of windows at the back of the building. I would ask everyone, while it makes for interesting speculation, to = refrain from further discussion about the disposition of the assets of = this facility. We plan to be here for a long time to come. Our = creditors, including our banking partners, have been more than agreeable = to doing whatever it takes to help us restructure the finances here. = For those of you that do not know me, I am the first to admit that I did = not take the Director's job here as a result of years of experience in = the Museum world. I came here with a life-long background as a Finance = Officer. I know what it means to run a business and run it profitably. = I must, however, keep telling myself that it took years to find = ourselves in this situation and I will not remedy it over the course of = my first year behind this desk. I am pleased with our progress this past year and as I said, the = discussion about "who gets what" is moot - we have no plans to give any = of it up. Thanks Scott Cessna Director of Operations Railroaders Memorial Museum Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark 814-946-0834 ext 224 Fax 814-946-9457 ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C398C1.43131520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings All,
 
Bill Bigler asked what happened to the = Tuscan GG1=20 we had here in the yard.  It is on a siding about 8 blocks from the = museum=20 along with most of the rest of our rolling stock collection.  This = was all=20 moved last year as we anticipated construction of our Quarter Roundhouse = and=20 turntable to get underway much sooner than it is going to.  The = rolling=20 stock is actually going to be moved on November 13 to the lead just = outside the=20 museum yard as the location in which it is now stored must be = vacated. =20 Anyone with nothing better to do that wants to see that move take place = should=20 be here that day.  I do not know at this time when NS plans the = move as the=20 GG-1 must actually be rerailed as part of the process.  It was = derailed in=20 the original move.
 
For everyone's info, the roundhouse = construction is=20 scheduled for 2004 along with the turntable.  All the funding is in = place=20 to accomplish this project.  The turntable will come here from the=20 abandoned shop in Pen Argyl.
 
Financially, we are making = progress.  The=20 coming year will see the 150th birthday of the Horseshoe Curve and we = hope to=20 involve corporate America in the sponsorship of this year-long = celebration to a=20 level we have never done before.  We are exploring the best use of = the=20 original museum building to include food service (which the museum has = always=20 lacked).  The microbrewery story was really a front page news story = made=20 from no story.  It is simply one of many ideas that have been = presented to=20 us for use of the original building and we will discuss them all.  = We plan=20 to put no cash into any of these deals.  What we have to offer a = lessee is=20 great real estate that is not as far from the mainline as some of you = think and=20 does afford a view of that mainline from inside the building.  That = will=20 all change with the roundhouse construction as the view then will be of = our=20 100ft turntable that will be less than 50 ft from the glass wall of = windows at=20 the back of the building.
 
I would ask everyone, while it makes = for=20 interesting speculation, to refrain from further discussion about the=20 disposition of the assets of this facility.  We plan to be = here for a=20 long time to come.  Our creditors, including our banking = partners,=20 have been more than agreeable to doing whatever it takes to help us = restructure=20 the finances here.  For those of you that do not know me, I am the = first to=20 admit that I did not take the Director's job here as a result of years = of=20 experience in the Museum world.  I came here with a life-long = background as=20 a Finance Officer.  I know what it means to run a business and run = it=20 profitably.  I must, however, keep telling myself that it took = years to=20 find ourselves in this situation and I will not remedy it over the = course=20 of my first year behind this desk.
 
I am pleased with our progress this = past year and=20 as I said, the discussion about "who gets what" is moot - we = have no=20 plans to give any of it up.
 
Thanks
 
Scott Cessna
Director of=20 Operations
Railroaders Memorial Museum
Horseshoe Curve National Historic=20 Landmark
814-946-0834  ext 224
Fax=20 814-946-9457
------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C398C1.43131520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:28:25 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C398E3.6D571E90 Content-Type: text/plain Bill; Well said! My mistake. I like the analogy! How did these other facilities revive them? Oh, I also hope you check out the next issue of Keystone Modeler. We will have a gon familiar to you in there. It was an offal modeling project. I nauseated several folks when I showed them the result.... I'd love to hear any more stories you have on odd service cars and strange events and all. You really motivated me on that last one! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:37 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District While it is true that the FAs were assigned to Pitcairn and Shire Oaks, they managed to wander all over the eastern half of the system. They only had to go to Shire Oaks for MI once a month. The rest of the time they could be found in round houses hither and yon being given resuscation! -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 3:07 PM To: 'Jerry Britton'; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Jerry; The Strip received lots of produce, but also meat, as they did have refrigeration facilities around the yard that stored both. The Strip was only separated by the final destination, as both, I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then classified on certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, or even other alternative destinations (there were other consignees around there and peripheral to the Strip). I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman at the time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the choicer assignments. Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting secondary assignments due to the break-down rate. Although ultimately, the actual area of assignment would have determined the real assignments. For instance, although I do not know where things were assigned in your time frame, by mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks. Thus, the vast majority of trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at one of those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or the other. Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what were the primary and secondary power units assigned? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com ] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:25 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District was mentioned in our reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two blocks...one destined for the produce terminal and the other for the strip district. As mentioned, the first block would be nearly all reefers, bringing all sorts of produce to the wholesale market. What all types of cars would have gone to the strip district? Was this just produce as well, or meats, or what? PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast and reliable EMD F7's, don't you think? In other news, I think my S-83 bringing potatos from Wilkes-Barre to Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C398E3.6D571E90 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip = District

Bill;

Well said!  My = mistake.

 

=

I like the = analogy!

 

=

How did these other facilities = revive them?

 

=

Oh, I also hope you check out the = next issue of Keystone Modeler.  = We will have a gon familiar to you in there.  It was an offal modeling project.  I nauseated several folks when I showed them the = result....

 

=

I'd love to hear any more stories you have on odd service cars and strange events and all.  You really motivated me on = that last one!

 

=

Elden 

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October = 22, 2003 1:37 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry = Britton; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

 

While it is true that the FAs were assigned = to Pitcairn and Shire Oaks, they managed to wander all over the eastern = half of the system.  They only had to go to Shire Oaks for MI once a = month.  The rest of the time they could be found in round houses hither = and  yon being given resuscation!

-----Original Message-----
From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 = 3:07 PM
To: 'Jerry Britton'; = PRR-Talk LIST
Cc:
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

Jerry;
The Strip received lots = of produce, but also meat, as they did have refrigeration facilities around the = yard that stored both.  The Strip was only separated by the final = destination, as both, I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then = classified on certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, or even other alternative destinations (there were other consignees around there and peripheral to the Strip).

I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman = at the time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the choicer assignments.  Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting = secondary assignments due to the break-down rate.  Although ultimately, the = actual area of assignment would have determined the real assignments.  = For instance, although I do not know where things were assigned in your = time frame, by mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and = almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks.  Thus, the vast majority = of trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at one of = those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or the other.  = Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what were the primary and secondary power units assigned?

Elden

-----Original Message----- =
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] =
Sent: Wednesday, = October 22, 2003 12:25 PM
To: PRR-Talk = LIST
Subject: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip = District was mentioned in our
reefer talk. Train PG-5 = consisted of two blocks...one destined for the
produce terminal and = the other for the strip district.

As mentioned, the first block would be = nearly all reefers, bringing all
sorts of produce to the = wholesale market.

What all types of cars would have gone to = the strip district? Was this
just produce as well, = or meats, or what?

PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast = and reliable EMD F7's, don't
you = think?

In other news, I think my S-83 bringing = potatos from Wilkes-Barre to
Enola (in r/w/b BAR, = white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco
FA2-FB2-FA2 = lashup.
---------------------------------------------= --------------
Jerry Britton, = SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, = Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise = Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

 

---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
For assistance with = this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C398E3.6D571E90-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:25:47 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C398F3.D25D4A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip DistrictEldon, seems perfectly reasonable to me, I assume you do not attempt to = replicate the smell! getting rid of "waste" of various types has always been a rail traffic = flow. Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Bill Volkmer' ; Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk LIST=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 10:28 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Bill; Well said! My mistake. =20 I like the analogy! =20 How did these other facilities revive them? =20 Oh, I also hope you check out the next issue of Keystone Modeler. We = will have a gon familiar to you in there. It was an offal modeling = project. I nauseated several folks when I showed them the result.... =20 I'd love to hear any more stories you have on odd service cars and = strange events and all. You really motivated me on that last one! =20 Elden =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:37 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District =20 While it is true that the FAs were assigned to Pitcairn and Shire = Oaks, they managed to wander all over the eastern half of the system. = They only had to go to Shire Oaks for MI once a month. The rest of the = time they could be found in round houses hither and yon being given = resuscation! -----Original Message-----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]=20 Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 3:07 PM=20 To: 'Jerry Britton'; PRR-Talk LIST=20 Cc:=20 Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Jerry;=20 The Strip received lots of produce, but also meat, as they did have = refrigeration facilities around the yard that stored both. The Strip = was only separated by the final destination, as both, I believe, were = worked out of the same yard initially, then classified on certain tracks = for movement to either one or the other, or even other alternative = destinations (there were other consignees around there and peripheral to = the Strip). I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman at the time was allotting = power, but the better units did tend to get the choicer assignments. = Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting secondary assignments = due to the break-down rate. Although ultimately, the actual area of = assignment would have determined the real assignments. For instance, = although I do not know where things were assigned in your time frame, by = mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and = almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks. Thus, the vast majority = of trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at = one of those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or = the other. Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what = were the primary and secondary power units assigned? Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:25 PM=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST=20 Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District=20 The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District was mentioned in = our=20 reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two blocks...one destined for = the=20 produce terminal and the other for the strip district.=20 As mentioned, the first block would be nearly all reefers, bringing = all=20 sorts of produce to the wholesale market.=20 What all types of cars would have gone to the strip district? Was = this=20 just produce as well, or meats, or what?=20 PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast and reliable EMD F7's, = don't=20 you think?=20 In other news, I think my S-83 bringing potatos from Wilkes-Barre to = Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco=20 FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup.=20 -----------------------------------------------------------=20 Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com=20 Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.=20 "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!=20 http://kc.pennsyrr.com=20 "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...=20 http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com=20 =20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C398F3.D25D4A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District
Eldon,
 
seems perfectly reasonable to me, I = assume you do=20 not attempt to replicate the smell!
 
getting rid of "waste" of various types = has always=20 been a rail traffic flow.
 
Patrick Grace
 
www.prr.org.uk
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'Bill Volkmer' ; Jerry = Britton ;=20 PRR-Talk LIST=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, = 2003 10:28=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh = Produce=20 Terminal & Strip District

Bill;

Well = said!  My=20 mistake.

 

I like the=20 analogy!

 

How did = these other=20 facilities revive them?

 

Oh, I also = hope you=20 check out the next issue of Keystone Modeler.  We will have a gon familiar = to you in=20 there.  It was an offal = modeling=20 project.  I nauseated = several=20 folks when I showed them the result....

 

I'd love to = hear any=20 more stories you have on odd service cars and strange events and = all.  You really motivated me on = that last=20 one!

 

Elden  =

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Bill=20 Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, = 2003 1:37=20 PM
To: ELDEN = GATWOOD; Jerry=20 Britton; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh = Produce=20 Terminal & Strip District

 

While it is true that the FAs = were=20 assigned to Pitcairn and Shire Oaks, they managed to wander all over = the=20 eastern half of the system.  They only had to go to Shire Oaks = for MI=20 once a month.  The rest of the time they could be found in round = houses=20 hither and  yon being given=20 resuscation!

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: ELDEN=20 GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 3:07 PM=20
To: 'Jerry = Britton';=20 PRR-Talk LIST
Cc:=20
Subject: RE: = [PRR]=20 Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip=20 District

Jerry;
The Strip received lots of produce, but = also meat,=20 as they did have refrigeration facilities around the yard that = stored=20 both.  The Strip was only separated by the final destination, = as both,=20 I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then = classified on=20 certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, or even = other=20 alternative destinations (there were other consignees around there = and=20 peripheral to the Strip).

I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman = at the=20 time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the = choicer=20 assignments.  Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting = secondary assignments due to the break-down rate.  Although = ultimately,=20 the actual area of assignment would have determined the real=20 assignments.  For instance, although I do not know where things = were=20 assigned in your time frame, by mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were = almost all=20 (nine of the PA/PBs and almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire = Oaks. =20 Thus, the vast majority of trains one would have seen them on would = have=20 either originated at one of those two yards, or in turn-around = (return)=20 service from one or the other.  Where are you basing your power = out of,=20 Enola?, and what were the primary and secondary power units=20 assigned?

Elden

-----Original Message----- =
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20
Sent:=20 Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:25 PM
To: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh = Produce=20 Terminal & Strip District

The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & = Strip District=20 was mentioned in our
reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two=20 blocks...one destined for the
produce terminal and the other for the = strip=20 district.

As mentioned, the first block would be = nearly all=20 reefers, bringing all
sorts of produce to the wholesale=20 market.

What all types of cars would have gone to = the strip=20 district? Was this
just produce as well, or meats, or=20 what?

PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast = and=20 reliable EMD F7's, don't
you think?

In other news, I think my S-83 bringing = potatos from=20 Wilkes-Barre to
Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE = cars) will=20 get an Alco
FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup. =
-----------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>=20
Jerry Britton,=20 SPF   Member, PRRT&HS  =20 jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, = 1954 in N=20 Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk"=20 mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - = Model railroad=20 products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com=20

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------= ----=20
For assistance = with this=20 list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C398F3.D25D4A70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:19:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion From: aurora7@juno.com I've built some P54 coaches for my LIRR layout using Penn Line 54' coaches. Why not? Dick Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:17:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 5493 From: aurora7@juno.com Gary, how about building her in the same manner as the B6sb you scratched? The photo journal made it seem so easy to follow, though not necessarily easy to build. Dick Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 5493 Dick, Thanks for the note. Yeah, a Large Scale K4s. Now that's the ticket! But I bet, once I have it half way done, one of the big companies will get one out first. I will let them do the hard work. . I did have plans, still do kinda, of attempting a 3768 Streamlined K4s in 1:29th Scale. If I do, then that would mean a 1938 Broadway Limited Train Set to follow. I am not that ambitious.......In the mean time, the 5493 in HO Scale will do. By the way, I am in the very prelim stages of another long 1:29th project. Pics in do time......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:32:46 GMT Subject: [PRR] NH State of Maine Boxcars From: Dominic Mazoch >From what I understand, the NH placed an add on order to the BAR "SOM" order. The HN just wanted the cars in boxcar read, but the change would have resulted in $350 increase in the price of each car. So, they just kept the SOM paint, with NH script for the RR ID. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:43:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Express X-29 paint schemes From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 05:14 PM, Jeff Smith wrote: > Please excuse me if this topic was just recently discussed.=A0 I am = new=20 > to the list and would like to know if the paint schemes on the X-29=20 > express cars were different than the freight cars.=A0 Where there any=20= > special markings?=A0 I realize that some had Railway Express Agency on=20= > them.=A0 They are obviously express cars. > =A0 > date- 1950's They had the RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY markings that you alluded to, a=20 stirrup step below each door, and extra grabs on the ends. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Express X-29 paint schemes Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:09:59 -0400 Re: They had the RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY markings that you alluded to, a stirrup step below each door, and extra grabs on the ends. Plus steam and communication lines and marker light brackets. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:10:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum -------------------------------1066871425 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to list; I enjoyed reading Mr. Bigler's constructive comments regarding Railroader's Memorial Museum. Mr. Cessna has replied and addressed most of the points under consideration. But, regarding the suggestion for a railfan's guide to the Altoona area/region, may I suggest taking a look at the webpage for the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS at: www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs. On this website, you will find an index for train watching venues within a significant radius of Altoona. Most of you know about them, but maps are also provided. Hope this of some help. As an aside, the NRHS Spring Director's Meeting will be held in Altoona the first weekend in April 2004. The purpose of this occasion is to recognize the 150th Anniversary of the Horseshoe Curve and a bronze plaque will be placed at Horseshoe Curve as part of this observance....one of several recognitions by various groups scheduled for 2004. For more information, you may contact the Horseshoe Curve Chapter directly from the links provided on their website. David Seidel, Chapter Historian Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS -------------------------------1066871425 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings to list;
 
I enjoyed reading Mr. Bigler's constructive comme= nts regarding Railroader's Memorial Museum. Mr. Cessna has replied and addre= ssed most of the points under consideration.
 
But, regarding the suggestion for a railfan's gui= de to the Altoona area/region, may I suggest taking a look at the webpage fo= r the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS at:
www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs.  On this website, you=20= will find an index for train watching venues within a significant radius of=20= Altoona.  Most of you know about them, but maps are also provided. = ; Hope this of some help.
 
As an aside, the NRHS Spring Director's Meeting w= ill be held in Altoona the first weekend in April 2004.  The purpose of= this occasion is to recognize the 150th Anniversary of the Horseshoe Curve=20= and a bronze plaque will be placed at Horseshoe Curve as part of this observ= ance....one of several recognitions by various groups scheduled for 200= 4. For more information, you may contact the Horseshoe Curve Chapter directl= y from the links provided on their website.
 
David Seidel, Chapter Historian
Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS
<= /HTML> -------------------------------1066871425-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:55:46 GMT Subject: [PRR] REA X-29's From: Dominic Mazoch If you can go to a hobby shop, or find and Industrial Rail ad for their "O-27" cars, they have a boxcar painted in the PRR-REA scheme. The car seems to be "6464" sized (Lionel), but the lettering seems OK. I use it with my 675 "K3.5s" (2-6-2) and the 9500 Lionel passsenger cars made in the mid 1970's. Not scale, but makes a good looking train, especially when it passes the MTH Position Signals! Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 5493 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:21:05 -0500 Hi Gary--You are right, CalScale. 190-271 for the lubricator and 190-224 for the stoker. For the walkway modifications you will have to cut off a section from the original and fashion a new raised portion from brass. Try to use the removed section--with the embossed tread--for the top portion of your new section. You should have plenty of samples to follow....... Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:29:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I do read "other" scale postings Hello list, In answer to Jerry's query, I model primarily in HO. However, I look at (and like reading) all of the postings that have other scales in them. I enjoy reading about new products (and new uses for older products), and I've found that inventive approaches in N scale (or O, or any other scale) are always good to know about....I can apply them in some way for my own projects. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:25:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [NEWNScaleProducts] Re: [PRR] HO PRR Signal Bridge & N PRR From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 02:33 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > Has anyone ever come out with "Lines West" Signal bridges? These signal > bridges were found throughout the PRR system but were more common in > the > east. West of Pittsburgh, another type of signal bridge was more > common. It > had "X" bracing within the bridge portion over the rails and had solid, > semi-circular panels in the upper corners of the bridge. I was contacted by a manufacturer last night to assist in a Lines West Signal Bridge project. I can't say who it is, but it is not Alkem Scale Models. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:05:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 From: Jerry Britton Yesterday I made the comment about using a lashup of Alco FA2/FB2/FA2 to power my S-83 train from Wilkes-Barre to Enola -- the train that carries a block of white potatos (BAR/PFE/MDT cars, we determined). I was questioned about the appropriateness of Alco units in this area. I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and there were 3 such ABA sets assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. Not only that, but two of the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers released by Life Like!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:48:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-4-562882475 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 03:11 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > MY weird mind is at it again and wondered if anybody has tried this. > It > looks to me from the diagrams on Rob's web site that an MP-54 could be > made > fairly easily from a Bachman P70 coach. The round windows would have > to be > inserted in the ends, the end side window moved and roughly 16' > removed from > the car. The window spacing is fairly close. The box headlight could > be > built up or cast for multiples. It doesn't appear to be a hard job. > Any > thoughts? Well... not to rain on your parade, but I looked at this in detail a couple of years ago, and there is a fatal flaw in your logic... MP54, 3 window/panel P70, 2 windows/panel Now if it were the other way around, shortening panels w/o showing a seam would be a piece of cake...but the truth of the mater is that you have to lengthen each panel by one window. BTW, if you were going to do this, I would suggest using the ECW P70 sides rather than having to hack up a Botchman body. Much easier to work in 2D rather than 3D. Also, I believe that the clerestory in the MP54 was wider than the P70 to accommodate the pantograph Bottom line? To get an MP54 car side, you have to scratch build it. I've got some idea as to how to do this, and one could, for example, build a single "unit" master (a 3 window section). Cast multiples in resin, make a master for the short, one window panel at the end of each side, assemble, and you have a master for an entire side. Remember too that you need one panel with vents, and as you noted, the ends... Rumors have been flying for several years about resin/styrene MP54s including F&C and others. Trainstuff LLC used to advertise MP54s, but I don't see anything on their web page anymore. So far, nothing concrete has showed up from the other companies. I certainly plan on presenting MP54s to the manufacturers at the forum at Cocoa Beach (along with centipedes). Who knows, maybe Walthers would consider it... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4-562882475 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 03:11 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: MY weird mind is at it again and wondered if anybody has tried this. It looks to me from the diagrams on Rob's web site that an MP-54 could be made fairly easily from a Bachman P70 coach. The round windows would have to be inserted in the ends, the end side window moved and roughly 16' removed from the car. The window spacing is fairly close. The box headlight could be built up or cast for multiples. It doesn't appear to be a hard job. Any thoughts? Well... not to rain on your parade, but I looked at this in detail a couple of years ago, and there is a fatal flaw in your logic... MP54, 3 window/panel P70, 2 windows/panel Now if it were the other way around, shortening panels w/o showing a seam would be a piece of cake...but the truth of the mater is that you have to lengthen each panel by one window. BTW, if you were going to do this, I would suggest using the ECW P70 sides rather than having to hack up a Botchman body. Much easier to work in 2D rather than 3D. Also, I believe that the clerestory in the MP54 was wider than the P70 to accommodate the pantograph Bottom line? To get an MP54 car side, you have to scratch build it. I've got some idea as to how to do this, and one could, for example, build a single "unit" master (a 3 window section). Cast multiples in resin, make a master for the short, one window panel at the end of each side, assemble, and you have a master for an entire side. Remember too that you need one panel with vents, and as you noted, the ends... Rumors have been flying for several years about resin/styrene MP54s including F&C and others. Trainstuff LLC used to advertise MP54s, but I don't see anything on their web page anymore. So far, nothing concrete has showed up from the other companies. I certainly plan on presenting MP54s to the manufacturers at the forum at Cocoa Beach (along with centipedes). Who knows, maybe Walthers would consider it... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4-562882475-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Roaming FAs (WAS) Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:06:48 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3996E.E61C9188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIEZBJ3Mgd2VyZSBjb25zdGFudGx5IHJlcXVpcmluZyBjeWxpbmRlciBoZWFkIHJlcGxhY2Vt ZW50cyBiZWNhdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBleGhhdXN0IHZhbHZlcyBjYXJib25pbmcgdXAgY2F1c2luZyB0 aGUgZW5naW5lIHRvIGxvc2UgaG9yc2Vwb3dlci4gIE5vIGhvcnNlcG93ZXIsIG5vIGhhdWwgdGhl IHRyYWluLCByaWdodD8gIEkgdGhpbmsgb25lIG9mIG15IGZpcnN0IHRhc2tzIGF0IEVhc3QgQWx0 b29uYSBhcyBhIFNwZWNpYWwgQXBwcmVudGljZS9Kci4gRW5naW5lZXIgd2FzIHRvIHJlcGxhY2Ug YWJvdXQgZm91ciBoZWFkcyBvbiBhbiBGQS4gIFlvdSBoYWQgdG8gaG9vayBhIGNoYWluIGhvaXN0 IHRvIHRoZSBjZWlsaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBjYXJib2R5IHRvIGxpZnQgdGhlbSBvZmYsIHVubGlrZSB0 aGUgcm9hZCBzd2l0Y2hlcnMgd2hlcmUgeW91IGNvdWxkIHVzZSBhIGppYiBjcmFuZSBmcm9tIG91 dHNpZGUgdGhlIHVuaXQuICBTbWFsbCB3b25kZXIgdGhleSBvcHRlZCBmb3Igcm9hZHN3aXRjaGVy 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From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:29:00 +0000 Bruce Smith wrote: I certainly plan on presenting MP54s to the manufacturers at the forum at Cocoa Beach (along with centipedes). Who knows, maybe Walthers would consider it... We'll need to get the SAL guys on board for the Centipedes, as well as that vast untapped Mexican market - Viva El Ciempiés! ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:04:16 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion Bruce, I have dreamed of a plastic MP54 for years! I suggested it to Bowser some time ago as an entree in to passenger car field. It has the major advantage for the general model RR market of being a prototype shorty. For prototype modelers it could be decorated for PRR, LIRR, B&M, PSRL, PC, CR, NJDoT, CTDoT and probably others. For generic model RRs it could be offered undec but painted tuscan red or pullman green. I think it should be offered as a "steam" coach for widest sale. It could have optional headlight, whistle, underbody details, and porthole end window knockouts for those who want the MU version. The kit could also include optional non-working pantographs and/or third rail shoes. Motorizing kits and working pantographs cloud be offered separately. The optional non-working pantograph could be molded in a partially raised position. It would be an improvement over all the locked down pans on all our GG1s! >From the same masters the molder could also make prototypical combines and baggage cars. Regards, Andrew S. Miller BTW I'm not surprised that there is no concrete MP54 ;-) But they did have a concrete floor! ======================================================= Bruce Smith wrote: > On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 03:11 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > MY weird mind is at it again and wondered if anybody has tried this. It > looks to me from the diagrams on Rob's web site that an MP-54 could be made > fairly easily from a Bachman P70 coach. The round windows would have to be > inserted in the ends, the end side window moved and roughly 16' removed from > the car. The window spacing is fairly close. The box headlight could be > built up or cast for multiples. It doesn't appear to be a hard job. Any > thoughts? > > Well... not to rain on your parade, but I looked at this in detail a couple of years ago, and there is a fatal flaw in your logic... > > MP54, 3 window/panel > P70, 2 windows/panel > > Now if it were the other way around, shortening panels w/o showing a seam would be a piece of cake...but the truth of the mater is that you have to lengthen each panel by one window. BTW, if you were going to do this, I would suggest using the ECW P70 sides rather than having to hack up a Botchman body. Much easier to work in 2D rather than 3D. > > Also, I believe that the clerestory in the MP54 was wider than the P70 to accommodate the pantograph > > Bottom line? To get an MP54 car side, you have to scratch build it. I've got some idea as to how to do this, and one could, for example, build a single "unit" master (a 3 window section). Cast multiples in resin, make a master for the short, one window panel at the end of each side, assemble, and you have a master for an entire side. Remember too that you need one panel with vents, and as you noted, the ends... > > Rumors have been flying for several years about resin/styrene MP54s including F&C and others. Trainstuff LLC used to advertise MP54s, but I don't see anything on their web page anymore. So far, nothing concrete has showed up from the other companies. I certainly plan on presenting MP54s to the manufacturers at the forum at Cocoa Beach (along with centipedes). Who knows, maybe Walthers would consider it... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:16:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 11:04 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I have dreamed of a plastic MP54 for years! I suggested it to Bowser > some time ago as an entree in to passenger car field. After the online flames posted last week about the forthcoming N8, you are going to have a very hard time getting Bowser to make anything new for the PRR. Suffice it to say, enjoy it while you can. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Early diesel reliability Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:38:24 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3997B.B24B43D0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill; THAT was a great story. I love your sense of humor. Were the Sharks also real oil spewers? I seem to recall the one I peeked into being awash. I know folks have their own opinions, but it seems like much of it stems from things you've written in the PDY books over the years. But how would you have ranked the various units on reliability, like on a scale of 1-10? Were C-Liners better than FAs? Were Sharks more reliable than FAs? What were the worst? Eries? PAs? The Limas? Thanks! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:07 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Roaming FAs (WAS) Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District The FA's were constantly requiring cylinder head replacements because of the exhaust valves carboning up causing the engine to lose horsepower. No horsepower, no haul the train, right? I think one of my first tasks at East Altoona as a Special Apprentice/Jr. Engineer was to replace about four heads on an FA. You had to hook a chain hoist to the ceiling of the carbody to lift them off, unlike the road switchers where you could use a jib crane from outside the unit. Small wonder they opted for roadswitchers real early in the game. All the Alcos had GE electrical governors except the DL series that came with Woodwards a la EMDs. You needed a college education to understand the excitation system on the Alcos. The PAs were rewired around 1956 with a symplfied amplidine excitation system that did away with a lot of bus bars etc that were all over the floor. This allowed the oil to flow more freely on the floor and easier to wipe up. Didn't lessen the frequency of oil leaks howsomever. In the six months I was assigned to 55th Street Chicago (4-63 to 10-63), I saw exactly ONE set of FA's venture in. It was a rare occasion indeed to see FA's west of Crestline. In 11-63 (11-22-63 I was moving into my house in Canton) I was assigned to Canton diesel shop and over the next 8 months saw the FA's dwindle to a handful and then extinction as they were traded in for C-425s. WDV -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 4:28 PM To: Bill Volkmer; Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Bill; Well said! My mistake. I like the analogy! How did these other facilities revive them? Oh, I also hope you check out the next issue of Keystone Modeler. We will have a gon familiar to you in there. It was an offal modeling project. I nauseated several folks when I showed them the result.... I'd love to hear any more stories you have on odd service cars and strange events and all. You really motivated me on that last one! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:37 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District While it is true that the FAs were assigned to Pitcairn and Shire Oaks, they managed to wander all over the eastern half of the system. They only had to go to Shire Oaks for MI once a month. The rest of the time they could be found in round houses hither and yon being given resuscation! -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 3:07 PM To: 'Jerry Britton'; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District Jerry; The Strip received lots of produce, but also meat, as they did have refrigeration facilities around the yard that stored both. The Strip was only separated by the final destination, as both, I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then classified on certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, or even other alternative destinations (there were other consignees around there and peripheral to the Strip). I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman at the time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the choicer assignments. Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting secondary assignments due to the break-down rate. Although ultimately, the actual area of assignment would have determined the real assignments. For instance, although I do not know where things were assigned in your time frame, by mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks. Thus, the vast majority of trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at one of those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or the other. Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what were the primary and secondary power units assigned? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com ] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:25 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District was mentioned in our reefer talk. Train PG-5 consisted of two blocks...one destined for the produce terminal and the other for the strip district. As mentioned, the first block would be nearly all reefers, bringing all sorts of produce to the wholesale market. What all types of cars would have gone to the strip district? Was this just produce as well, or meats, or what? PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast and reliable EMD F7's, don't you think? In other news, I think my S-83 bringing potatos from Wilkes-Barre to Enola (in r/w/b BAR, white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco FA2-FB2-FA2 lashup. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3997B.B24B43D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip = District

Bill;

 THAT was a great story.  I love your sense of = humor.

 

=

Were the Sharks also real oil = spewers?  = I seem to recall the one I peeked into being = awash.

 

=

I know folks have their own = opinions, but it seems like much of it stems from things you've written in the PDY books over the years.  But = how would you have ranked the various units on reliability, like on a scale of = 1-10?  Were C-Liners better than = FAs?  = Were Sharks more reliable than FAs?  What were the worst?  = Eries?  PAs?  The = Limas?

 

=

Thanks!

 

=

Elden

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Thursday, October = 23, 2003 7:07 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry = Britton; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: [PRR] Roaming = FAs (WAS) Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

 

The FA's were constantly requiring cylinder = head replacements because of the exhaust valves carboning up causing the = engine to lose horsepower.  No horsepower, no haul the train, right?  I = think one of my first tasks at East Altoona as a Special Apprentice/Jr. = Engineer was to replace about four heads on an FA.  You had to hook a chain = hoist to the ceiling of the carbody to lift them off, unlike the road switchers = where you could use a jib crane from outside the unit.  Small wonder = they opted for roadswitchers real early in the game.  All the Alcos had GE = electrical governors except the DL series that came with Woodwards a la = EMDs.  You needed a college education to understand the excitation system on the Alcos.  The PAs were rewired around 1956 with a symplfied = amplidine excitation system that did away with a lot of bus bars etc that were = all over the floor.  This allowed the oil to flow more freely on the floor = and easier to wipe up.  Didn't lessen the frequency of oil leaks = howsomever.

 

In the six months I was assigned to 55th = Street Chicago (4-63 to 10-63), I saw exactly ONE set of FA's venture = in.  It was a rare occasion indeed to see FA's west of Crestline. In 11-63 = (11-22-63 I was moving into my house in Canton) I was assigned to Canton diesel shop = and over the next 8 months saw the FA's dwindle to a handful and then extinction = as they were traded in for C-425s.

 

WDV 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 = 4:28 PM
To: Bill Volkmer; Jerry = Britton; PRR-Talk LIST
Cc:
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

Bill;

Well = said!  My mistake.

 

I like the = analogy!

 

How did these = other facilities revive them?

 

Oh, I also hope = you check out the next issue of Keystone Modeler.  We will have a gon = familiar to you in there.  It was an offal modeling project.  I nauseated = several folks when I showed them the result....

 

I'd love to = hear any more stories you have on odd service cars and strange events and all.  = You really motivated me on that last one!

 

Elden  =

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October = 22, 2003 1:37 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry = Britton; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

 

While it is true that the FAs were assigned = to Pitcairn and Shire Oaks, they managed to wander all over the eastern = half of the system.  They only had to go to Shire Oaks for MI once a = month.  The rest of the time they could be found in round houses hither = and  yon being given resuscation!

-----Original Message-----
From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent: Wed 10/22/2003 = 3:07 PM
To: 'Jerry Britton'; = PRR-Talk LIST
Cc:
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

Jerry;
The Strip received lots = of produce, but also meat, as they did have refrigeration facilities around the = yard that stored both.  The Strip was only separated by the final = destination, as both, I believe, were worked out of the same yard initially, then = classified on certain tracks for movement to either one or the other, or even other alternative destinations (there were other consignees around there and peripheral to the Strip).

I don't know how your Motive Power Foreman = at the time was allotting power, but the better units did tend to get the choicer assignments.  Even then, the Alco's seemed to have been getting = secondary assignments due to the break-down rate.  Although ultimately, the = actual area of assignment would have determined the real assignments.  = For instance, although I do not know where things were assigned in your = time frame, by mine the Alco cabs (PA, FA) were almost all (nine of the PA/PBs and = almost all FA/FBs) at Pitcairn and Shire Oaks.  Thus, the vast majority = of trains one would have seen them on would have either originated at one of = those two yards, or in turn-around (return) service from one or the other.  = Where are you basing your power out of, Enola?, and what were the primary and = secondary power units assigned?

Elden

-----Original Message----- =
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] =
Sent: Wednesday, = October 22, 2003 12:25 PM
To: PRR-Talk = LIST
Subject: [PRR] = Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip District

The Pittsburgh Produce Terminal & Strip = District was mentioned in our
reefer talk. Train PG-5 = consisted of two blocks...one destined for the
produce terminal and = the other for the strip district.

As mentioned, the first block would be = nearly all reefers, bringing all
sorts of produce to the = wholesale market.

What all types of cars would have gone to = the strip district? Was this
just produce as well, = or meats, or what?

PG-5 sounds like a good candidate for fast = and reliable EMD F7's, don't
you = think?

In other news, I think my S-83 bringing = potatos from Wilkes-Barre to
Enola (in r/w/b BAR, = white MDT, and PFE cars) will get an Alco
FA2-FB2-FA2 = lashup.
---------------------------------------------= --------------
Jerry Britton, = SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, = Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    = http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise = Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

 

---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
For assistance with = this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3997B.B24B43D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:04:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion From: Michael E Allen I believe you should delete CTDot from that list and add: NYS&W (ex-B&M), Tuckerton, Union Transportation (Pemberton & Hightstown), Washington Union Terminal, SEPTA, and Midland Continental (tripe combine). Then there are those that went to tourist roads. Anybody have any others? MEA On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:04:16 -0400 "Andrew S. Miller" writes in relevant part: >>>>> For prototype modelers it could be decorated for PRR, LIRR, B&M, PSRL, PC, CR, NJDoT, CTDoT and probably others. For generic model RRs it could be offered undec but painted tuscan red or pullman green. <<<<< ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:51:37 -0400 List, Believe the Piedmont and Northern had a couple of MP54's, and Consolidades de Cuba as well. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael E Allen" To: Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion > I believe you should delete CTDot from that list and add: NYS&W (ex-B&M), > Tuckerton, Union Transportation (Pemberton & Hightstown), Washington > Union Terminal, SEPTA, and Midland Continental (tripe combine). Then > there are those that went to tourist roads. > > Anybody have any others? > > MEA > > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:04:16 -0400 "Andrew S. Miller" > writes in relevant part: > > >>>>> For prototype modelers it could be decorated for PRR, LIRR, B&M, > PSRL, PC, CR, NJDoT, CTDoT and probably others. For > generic model RRs it could be offered undec but painted tuscan red or > pullman green. <<<<< > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:04:39 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and there were 3 such ABA sets assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. Not only that, but two of the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers released by > Life Like!!!< Jeeze, If these are the same units they release in HO SCale then these would be the wrong engine numbers as the 9610a/b were phase 1 units and the Life Like units are phase 2 units (in HO), 9620 and above (I believe this was the cut over). The differnce is the direction of the louvers on the battery boxes and some other details. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal via Indy? Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:05:55 +0000 Rick and Group, Rick's points (bottom message) are the same arguments that supported the unconfimred story that I heard about Gary US Steel coal trains running via Indy from time to time. Now, does anyone out there have any type of verification, a photo, a station record of trains, their own personal train log or a conversation with someone "in the know" if these trains did, on occasion, run via Indy? Thanks for the help, Steve Hipes Columbus, Ohio >> > > > > Rick wrote: > > > > >Many thanks to Joe Santucci for his update on Kentucky coal routings to > > >Chicago... Note that the PRR share of the US Steel traffic went > > >Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport(via >two possible routings)-Schererville >IN, > > > > >and was interchanged. Two routings because the direct route >from >Newman > > >(Richmond) to Anoka (near Logansport) had some problems -- for one, I > > >believe it was >a manual block railroad. > > > > > > From what I know, Rick is correct in that the Gary US Steel trains went >at > > least two routes between Cincinnati and Logansport. The Richmond Branch >was > > > > single track with MBS between Newman and Anoka. With the passenger >trains > > bewteen Chicago and Cincinnati and and a local out and about, during the > > day, the Richmond Branch was considered congested due to a lack of >capacity. > > > > Typically, the Gary train would run Newman-Anoka if there was no other > > traffic around. One known routing for the Gary US Steel train was > > Richmond-Ridgeville-Logansport. > > > > I have heard, but have never been able to find any proof, that those >trains > > on occasion ran the Main Line from Richmond to Indianapolis then went up >the > > > > I&F Branch to Logansport. This seems unlikely since 1) it would require > > four crews instead of three to get the train from Cincinnati to Gary and >2) > > as we all know, the Indy terminal could get really congested. Why would > > they want to throw a coal train into the Indy mix unless they did it on >a > > Sunday or Monday night when activity was likely to be a bit slower in >terms > > of yard and local jobs out and working? > > > > Steve Hipes > > Columbus, Ohio > > > >Steve, > >I don't know how often coal might have been rerouted via Indy. That's a >new >one on me. However, as a matter of conjecture, consider these ideas: >1. the Panhandle main between Richmond and Indy was doubletracked with >better >signaling, and thus might have some capacity >2. Indy had the doubletrack Belt Railway as a bypass around IU tower and >Union Station. This kept the freight traffic out of the stop-and-go >passenger >patterns around IUS. >3. The I&F branch, leaving the St. Louis-bound main at Ben Davis, was >built >in 1916 as a low-grade route for coal. >4. Trains to/from Indy didn't even have to pass through downtown >Logansport, >as ones via ANOKA did. They'd just swing around the southwest wye track at >VAN tower. >The above is not at all conclusive. OTOH, it just might have worked. > >What we do seem to know for sure is that the direct route - the MBS route >from NEWMAN up through Elwood to ANOKA -- hit a lot of congested towns >along the >way. And the Pennsy wasn't known for discouraging high-volume business -- >they'd find some way to move it. > >It'd be nice to nail more of this down. > >Rick Tipton >Louisville KY >Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West _________________________________________________________________ Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access. Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:10:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 01:04 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: >> I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and there were 3 such ABA >> sets assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. Not only that, >> but two of the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers >> released by >> Life Like!!!< > > Jeeze, > > If these are the same units they release in HO SCale then these would > be the wrong engine numbers as the 9610a/b were phase 1 units and the > Life Like units are phase 2 units (in HO), 9620 and above (I believe > this was the cut over). The differnce is the direction of the louvers > on the battery boxes and some other details. I'll look tonight. What am I looking for? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:22:48 -0500 Subject: FW: [PRR] Altoona Museum From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3149756568_158751_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit It is one really jaded railfan that is bored at Altoona! --MS_Mac_OE_3149756568_158751_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable FW: [PRR] Altoona Museum
It is one really jaded railfan that is bored at Altoona!

--MS_Mac_OE_3149756568_158751_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion --- "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > I have dreamed of a plastic MP54 for years! As have I. > I think it should be offered as a "steam" coach for widest sale. I agree. There was a large herd of MP54's which lived in Derry, PA. They migrated into Pittsburgh in the morning, back to Derry in the afternoon/evening. I suspect their survival in Pittsburgh commuter traffic may have been due to the long-proposed never-realized electrification of the pittsburgh Division. Also, the Ligonier Valley Rail Road had exactly one, which they augmented with borrowed PRR units on the days of the school picnic, the Railway picnic, and the Electric picnic. > From the same masters the molder could also make prototypical > combines and baggage cars. Of which there were a few in the pool mentioned above. I seem to recall having come upon a derelect car with a small RPO apartment sitting on a siding outside Derry sometime in the early 1950's. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:15:40 -0400 So were the original P2000 FA's Phase ones and could use these numbers. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 1:05 PM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and there were 3 such ABA sets assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. Not only that, but two of the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers released by > Life Like!!!< Jeeze, If these are the same units they release in HO SCale then these would be the wrong engine numbers as the 9610a/b were phase 1 units and the Life Like units are phase 2 units (in HO), 9620 and above (I believe this was the cut over). The differnce is the direction of the louvers on the battery boxes and some other details. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Correcting decal color Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:28:42 +0000 Would it be possible to scan a sheet of decals and adjust the buff color. Then print the new color on a blank decal sheet? I have a Cannon I-950 photo printer capable of 4800x1200 DPI so it should be able to hold the resolution. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:35:11 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] 11/22/63 Guys, I am often amazed at how so many of you guys can remember dates and where you were at the time. But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well exactly where I was. Tom Hayden > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] > >see FA's west of Crestline. In 11-63 (11-22-63 I was moving into my house in >Canton) I was assigned to Canton diesel shop ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:48:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Correcting decal color From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 02:28 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Would it be possible to scan a sheet of decals and adjust the buff > color. > Then print the new color on a blank decal sheet? I have a Cannon > I-950 photo > printer capable of 4800x1200 DPI so it should be able to hold the > resolution. I've never attempted it, but I'd venture to say it won't come out good. That based on my background in the printing industry. What appear to be full-color images are produced with four colors -- CYMK -- Cyan, Yellow, Magenta, and Black. The four colors are applied by four in-line printing presses in the form of dots, with each color matrix applied at a different angle. On a photograph you won't notice it unless you take a magnifying glass to it. In a magazine, look close. Color newspaper, more evident to the naked eye. Nearly all color printed products are produced this way. There will always be variations from printer to printer as well. Computer printers print using CYMK. Some have a single color cartridge; others have four separate cartridges. Now, here's the issue: Printed pieces also often feature solid blocks of accent colors. These are called "spot colors". They are usually specified by a PMS number (Pantone Matching System). If you specify a specific PMS number, it is up to the printer to match it at all costs. This is applied as a solid, custom ink and is not applied using dots. Corporations typically call for their logo to be printed in specific PMS colors. The solid colors the PRR specifies for rolling stock, structures, etc., are analogous to "spot colors". That is, they are printed as solids, not dots, using specially mixed paints. You can scan in a decal and adjust the color, but then you are going to print it with CMYK dots, not a solid. It may be "close enough" for your needs. You can also scan color drift cards and use software like PhotoShop to determine the best PMS match for a given sample...or to convert to the closest CMYK percentages or, for that matter, RGB percentages for computer screen rendering. That all said, how much of it will the great Carl Izzo correct me on? ;-) Go, Carl! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:49:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 02:35 PM, Tom Hayden wrote: > But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well exactly where I was. My parents were cutting the cake at my first birthday party! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:02:05 +0000 Don't we all. Kind of like 9/11. > Guys, > > I am often amazed at how so many of you guys can remember dates and where > you were at the time. But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well exactly > where I was. > > Tom Hayden > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] > > > >see FA's west of Crestline. In 11-63 (11-22-63 I was moving into my house in > >Canton) I was assigned to Canton diesel shop > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:43:56 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 Jerry writes... (referencing LL N Scale ALCo FA/B's) >I'll look tonight. What am I looking for?< Now this is from memory as I am muchin' on lunch here at work... On the battery box below the cab (the most notable change) is the early phase had horizontal louvers and the phase 2 units had vertical louvers. This was a strange change as EMD went the other way on the Funits... The reason for the EMD change of the louvers was the fact that ICE collected on the horizontal louvers. Many roads removed the louvers on the F-units an went back to a filter and chicken wire to eliminate the issue. Jerry check your Withers book and compare your units. Dependeing on your era you might want to add the traction motor vents as well... But in '54 I don't believe they had them yet. I edited most of the book for Dan and Paul, but I don't remember if we concetrated too much on phase changes but I think the louvers were mentioned. Hope this all helps. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:43:36 -0400 I got my first tooth. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Tom Hayden" Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 > On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 02:35 PM, Tom Hayden wrote: > > > But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well exactly where I was. > > My parents were cutting the cake at my first birthday party! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:47:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 03:43 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Now this is from memory as I am muchin' on lunch here at work... On > the battery box below the cab (the most notable change) is the early > phase had horizontal louvers and the phase 2 units had vertical > louvers. This was a strange change as EMD went the other way on the > Funits... The reason for the EMD change of the louvers was the fact > that ICE collected on the horizontal louvers. Many roads removed the > louvers on the F-units an went back to a filter and chicken wire to > eliminate the issue. > > Jerry check your Withers book and compare your units. Dependeing on > your era you might want to add the traction motor vents as well... But > in '54 I don't believe they had them yet. I edited most of the book > for Dan and Paul, but I don't remember if we concetrated too much on > phase changes but I think the louvers were mentioned. And I know if I have those battery box louvers going the wrong direction -- in N scale -- you'll be the first one to call me on it!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:53:25 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_dU77PJUPBnkICHeW+Mq9Hw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello, everyone. I was going through the EFS17m pix on the KC site, and came across #7176B, a slug unit. I first noted that although other GP9s did not have a PRR herald on the front, this B unit did. After looking the picture over I found I had a few questions: 1) When did the PRR start making their "B" units of this class? I'm guessing they did, from the way the unit number is applied over "fresh" DGLE paint on the engineer side of the unit. 2) Were these "B" units only used for yard work, or also used for longer hauls, as an F7B would be used? 3) Were numberboards removed from all "B" units? 4) Was the PRR herald painted on all EFS17m units and then later painted over, or is this "B" unit just a fluke? And an "off-the-wall" question: 5) What the heck does the "E" stand for in DGLE? Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_dU77PJUPBnkICHeW+Mq9Hw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hello, everyone.
 
I was going through the EFS17m pix on the KC site, and came across #7176B, a slug unit.
 
I first noted that although other GP9s did not have a PRR herald on the front, this B unit did.
 
After looking the picture over I found I had a few questions:
 
1)  When did the PRR start making their "B" units of this class?  I'm guessing they did, from the way the unit number is applied over "fresh" DGLE paint on the engineer side of the unit.
 
2)  Were these "B" units only used  for yard work, or also used for longer hauls, as an F7B would be used?
 
3)  Were numberboards removed from all "B" units?
 
4)  Was the PRR herald painted on all EFS17m units and then later painted over, or is this "B" unit just a fluke?
 
And an "off-the-wall" question:
 
5)  What the heck does the "E" stand for in DGLE?
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_dU77PJUPBnkICHeW+Mq9Hw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:03:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Correcting decal color From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-6-585399766 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 01:48 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 02:28 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > >> Would it be possible to scan a sheet of decals and adjust the buff >> color. >> Then print the new color on a blank decal sheet? I have a Cannon >> I-950 photo >> printer capable of 4800x1200 DPI so it should be able to hold the >> resolution. > > I've never attempted it, but I'd venture to say it won't come out > good. That based on my background in the printing industry. > > Printed pieces also often feature solid blocks of accent colors. These > are called "spot colors". They are usually specified by a PMS number > (Pantone Matching System). If you specify a specific PMS number, it is > up to the printer to match it at all costs. This is applied as a > solid, custom ink and is not applied using dots. Corporations > typically call for their logo to be printed in specific PMS colors. > > The solid colors the PRR specifies for rolling stock, structures, > etc., are analogous to "spot colors". That is, they are printed as > solids, not dots, using specially mixed paints. > > You can scan in a decal and adjust the color, but then you are going > to print it with CMYK dots, not a solid. It may be "close enough" for > your needs. In answer to the original question - I've been thinking of doing the same thing. Just make sure that the decal you copy is the correct font! Two questions do come to mind... 1) Color laser - is it still "dots"? 2) My new inkjet is a 4000 dpi printer. I'm hard pressed to see the dots...Is that "good enough"? As a side note, a list member of the STMFC list scanned a panel of AC&F box car red swatches. I copied the file to Word, sized it to fit an 8.5 x 11 sheet of Micro Mark laser decal film, and had it printed with a color laser printer at my local American Speedy Printer. The colors came out significantly lighter than on my ink jet, so some "tuning" might be needed. I'm going to use these as repainted "reweigh" blocks on weathered cars. In fact, it turns out that MicroMark sells WHITE paper. When I layer white letters over the paint, it prints with no ink there...soooooo I'm planning on creating a series of reweigh dates specifically for my date (the 30 months prior to 6/44) on the paint swatches and printing it on white paper - no white ink needed Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-6-585399766 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 01:48 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 02:28 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: Would it be possible to scan a sheet of decals and adjust the buff color. Then print the new color on a blank decal sheet? I have a Cannon I-950 photo printer capable of 4800x1200 DPI so it should be able to hold the resolution. I've never attempted it, but I'd venture to say it won't come out good. That based on my background in the printing industry. < Printed pieces also often feature solid blocks of accent colors. These are called "spot colors". They are usually specified by a PMS number (Pantone Matching System). If you specify a specific PMS number, it is up to the printer to match it at all costs. This is applied as a solid, custom ink and is not applied using dots. Corporations typically call for their logo to be printed in specific PMS colors. The solid colors the PRR specifies for rolling stock, structures, etc., are analogous to "spot colors". That is, they are printed as solids, not dots, using specially mixed paints. You can scan in a decal and adjust the color, but then you are going to print it with CMYK dots, not a solid. It may be "close enough" for your needs. In answer to the original question - I've been thinking of doing the same thing. Just make sure that the decal you copy is the correct font! Two questions do come to mind... 1) Color laser - is it still "dots"? 2) My new inkjet is a 4000 dpi printer. I'm hard pressed to see the dots...Is that "good enough"? As a side note, a list member of the STMFC list scanned a panel of AC&F box car red swatches. I copied the file to Word, sized it to fit an 8.5 x 11 sheet of Micro Mark laser decal film, and had it printed with a color laser printer at my local American Speedy Printer. The colors came out significantly lighter than on my ink jet, so some "tuning" might be needed. I'm going to use these as repainted "reweigh" blocks on weathered cars. In fact, it turns out that MicroMark sells WHITE paper. When I layer white letters over the paint, it prints with no ink there...soooooo I'm planning on creating a series of reweigh dates specifically for my date (the 30 months prior to 6/44) on the paint swatches and printing it on white paper - no white ink needed < Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-6-585399766-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:52:46 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C399A7.9D089780 Content-Type: text/plain Zak; The GP9Bs were not slugs, just ordinary mainline road units without a full-sized cab, just like a F3/7B, so they had to be used behind a full sized cab-equipped unit. I don't have the info in front of me, but the GP9Bs were either '58 or '59? The herald was not painted, it was a decal, I believe. The numberboards were never installed in the first place, I believe (the builder's photos do not have them). E=enamel I hope this helps. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Zak [mailto:casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 12:53 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Hello, everyone. I was going through the EFS17m pix on the KC site, and came across #7176B, a slug unit. I first noted that although other GP9s did not have a PRR herald on the front, this B unit did. After looking the picture over I found I had a few questions: 1) When did the PRR start making their "B" units of this class? I'm guessing they did, from the way the unit number is applied over "fresh" DGLE paint on the engineer side of the unit. 2) Were these "B" units only used for yard work, or also used for longer hauls, as an F7B would be used? 3) Were numberboards removed from all "B" units? 4) Was the PRR herald painted on all EFS17m units and then later painted over, or is this "B" unit just a fluke? And an "off-the-wall" question: 5) What the heck does the "E" stand for in DGLE? Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ------_=_NextPart_001_01C399A7.9D089780 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Zak;

The GP9Bs were not slugs, just = ordinary mainline road units without a full-sized cab, just like a F3/7B, so = they had to be used behind a full sized cab-equipped = unit.

 

=

I don't have the info in front of me, but the GP9Bs were either '58 or '59?

 

=

The herald was not painted, it was = a decal, I believe.

 

=

The numberboards were never installed in the first place, I believe (the builder's = photos do not have them).

 

=

E=3Denamel=

 

=

I hope this = helps.

Elden

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: Zak [mailto:casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil]
Sent: Thursday, October = 23, 2003 12:53 PM
To: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Class = EFS17m Questions

 

Hello, = everyone.

 

I was going through the = EFS17m pix on the KC site, and came across #7176B, a slug = unit.

 

I first noted that = although other GP9s did not have a PRR herald on the front, this B = unit did.

 

After looking the picture = over I found I had a few questions:

 

1)  When did the PRR = start making their "B" units of this class?  I'm guessing they = did, from the way the unit number is applied over "fresh" DGLE = paint on the engineer side of the unit.

 

2)  Were these = "B" units only used  for yard work, or also used for longer hauls, as an F7B would be = used?

 

3)  Were numberboards = removed from all "B" units?

 

4)  Was the PRR = herald painted on all EFS17m units and then later painted over, or is this = "B" unit just a fluke?

 

And an = "off-the-wall" question:

 

5)  What the heck = does the "E" stand for in DGLE?

 

Zak


"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C399A7.9D089780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:57:11 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C399A8.3AA6A0E0 Content-Type: text/plain The original P2K FAs were Phase 2; 9620(?)-9632 or so? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:16 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 So were the original P2000 FA's Phase ones and could use these numbers. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 1:05 PM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and there were 3 such ABA sets assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. Not only that, but two of the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers released by > Life Like!!!< Jeeze, If these are the same units they release in HO SCale then these would be the wrong engine numbers as the 9610a/b were phase 1 units and the Life Like units are phase 2 units (in HO), 9620 and above (I believe this was the cut over). The differnce is the direction of the louvers on the battery boxes and some other details. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C399A8.3AA6A0E0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954

The original P2K FAs were Phase 2; 9620(?)-9632 or = so?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:16 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954

So were the original P2000 FA's Phase ones and could = use these numbers.

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 1:05 PM
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954


jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and = there were 3 such ABA sets
assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. = Not only that, but two of
the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers = released by
> Life Like!!!<

Jeeze,

If these are the same units they release in HO SCale = then these would be the
wrong engine numbers as the 9610a/b were phase 1 = units and the Life Like
units are phase 2 units (in HO), 9620 and above (I = believe this was the cut
over). The differnce is the direction of the louvers = on the battery boxes
and some other details.

Greg Martin

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C399A8.3AA6A0E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Div6super@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:01:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pss Structures -------------------------------1066942911 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in contact with a laser cut manufacturer who is interested in producing PRR standard structures from plans. His interest lies in producing structure kits of buildings that can be non-geographic in nature. Does anyone have plans/ drawings they would be willing to share for this endeavor. Here is a chance to possibly bring prototype structures for our favorite PRR to market. -------------------------------1066942911 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in contact with a laser cut manufacturer who is interested in produc= ing PRR standard structures from plans.  His interest lies in producing= structure kits of buildings that can be non-geographic in nature.  Doe= s anyone have plans/ drawings they would be willing to share for this endeav= or.  Here is a chance to possibly bring prototype structures for our fa= vorite PRR to market. -------------------------------1066942911-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:11:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 03:43 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Jerry writes... (referencing LL N Scale ALCo FA/B's) > >> I'll look tonight. What am I looking for?< > > Now this is from memory as I am muchin' on lunch here at work... On > the battery box below the cab (the most notable change) is the early > phase had horizontal louvers and the phase 2 units had vertical > louvers. This was a strange change as EMD went the other way on the > Funits... The reason for the EMD change of the louvers was the fact > that ICE collected on the horizontal louvers. Many roads removed the > louvers on the F-units an went back to a filter and chicken wire to > eliminate the issue. The 9610 models do indeed have the horizontal louvers. But I can live with that in N scale! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:08:47 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > And I know if I have those battery box louvers going the wrong direction -- in N scale -- you'll be the first one to call me on it!!! > ;-) Not if you have the correct number on it... 3^) The fix isn't that hard... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:14:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 03:53 PM, Zak wrote: > 5)=A0 What the heck does the "E" stand for in DGLE? Dark Green Locomotive ENAMEL. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:13:08 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Correcting decal color KISS... Why not get clear decal film and spray the sheet with FLOQUIL DEPOT BUFF? Seems like an easy fix to me. DEPOT BUFF is what was used on the Genesis F-units for PRR buff... The next will be the LIFE LIKE RS-11 and all the future units... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:31:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BA_01C3998B.8A2832E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, The TrucTrain into Baltimore from the West usually had three units = GP9-GP9B-GP9 in 1966-67. Since it came down the Northern Central rather = than via the Port Road, I'd see it go by the station some mornings, well = over two hours late. We used to grumble about this because the B&O was = always on time. So, they were not only used on the road, but on = "hotshots". Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_01BA_01C3998B.8A2832E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 
The TrucTrain into Baltimore from the West usually = had three=20 units GP9-GP9B-GP9 in 1966-67. Since it came down the Northern Central = rather=20 than via the Port Road, I'd see it go by the station some mornings, well = over=20 two hours late. We used to grumble about this because the B&O was = always on=20 time. So, they were not only used on the road, but on = "hotshots".
 
Gregg Mahlkov
 
------=_NextPart_000_01BA_01C3998B.8A2832E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Smith" Subject: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:49:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C39996.62CFB730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is the difference between a B60 and an MS60 baggage? Jeff Smith Manheim, Pa ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C39996.62CFB730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is the difference between a B60 = and an MS60=20 baggage?
 
Jeff Smith
Manheim, Pa
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C39996.62CFB730-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:52:14 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 I was born two days later (In Elizabeth, NJ a couple of blocks away from the PRR). Jerry Shickler wrote: > I got my first tooth. > > Jerry Shickler > Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "Tom Hayden" > Cc: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 2:49 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 > > > On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 02:35 PM, Tom Hayden wrote: > > > > > But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well exactly where I was. > > > > My parents were cutting the cake at my first birthday party! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Christopher O. Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information on a proactive email security service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:36:32 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Class EFS17m Answers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_f80w1nBN/7nfZs0eSiJ39g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT My thanks to all of you for your answers. I have to admit that I never would have thought the B units were "store bought" even after taking another look or three at that photo. I guess in this case the picture didn't have a thousand words for me, but only one: "Gotcha!" ;-) Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_f80w1nBN/7nfZs0eSiJ39g) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
My thanks to all of you for your answers.
 
I  have to admit that I never would have thought the B units were "store bought" even after taking another look or three at that photo.  I guess in this case the picture didn't have a thousand words for me, but only one:  "Gotcha!"  ;-)
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_f80w1nBN/7nfZs0eSiJ39g)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:36:21 -0400 Greg, Jerry, Yes, the cutover started with 9620A. 9608-9619 had the vertical louvers, the later units had the horizontal louvers. The P2K FA2's have the later, horizontal louvers. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Assignments 1954 > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > I just checked the MP229 from March 1954 and there were 3 such ABA sets assigned to the Susquehanna Division at the time. Not only that, but two of the units (9610A, 9610B) exactly match road numbers released by > > Life Like!!!< > > Jeeze, > > If these are the same units they release in HO SCale then these would be the wrong engine numbers as the 9610a/b were phase 1 units and the Life Like units are phase 2 units (in HO), 9620 and above (I believe this was the cut over). The differnce is the direction of the louvers on the battery boxes and some other details. > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:55:50 -0500 From: Randy Subject: Re: [PRR] Pss Structures --=====================_134089765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed We already make a Pennsylvania Tool House and a scale house in N, HO, S, and G scale in cast resin. Randy Williamson www.trainstuffllc.com --=====================_134089765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

We already make a Pennsylvania Tool House and a scale house in N, HO, S, and G scale in cast resin.

Randy Williamson
www.trainstuffllc.com --=====================_134089765==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:56:36 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C399B8.E9951680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, To add to the other posts, these units were delivered to the PRR in two = groups in 11-12/1957 and 10-12/1959 as class EFS17m and the groups were = numbered 7175B-7204B & 7230B-7239B respectively. To be technical, the GP9B was not a slug, but a booster unit. The = difference being that a slug is a "locomotive" that has only traction = motors and is powered from the electricity generated by its slug mate or = mother . A booster is a complete locomotive with a diesel prime mover, = generator (or alternator) traction motors etc., but do not have a cab = and the normal controls/equipment housed within. The GP9B was very = similar to an F-unit "B", in this case, an F9B specifically, basically = in a different body. =20 As Elden noted, they were delivered without the lighted numberboards on = the ends.=20 When delivered in the paint scheme with "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out, they = did not have keystones on the ends. At least a couple received the end = keystones later while still wearing the roadname. When the name was = removed in the 1960's, numerous keystones were added to units, including = the ends. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 3:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Hello, everyone. =20 I was going through the EFS17m pix on the KC site, and came across = #7176B, a slug unit. =20 I first noted that although other GP9s did not have a PRR herald on = the front, this B unit did. =20 After looking the picture over I found I had a few questions: =20 1) When did the PRR start making their "B" units of this class? I'm = guessing they did, from the way the unit number is applied over "fresh" = DGLE paint on the engineer side of the unit. 2) Were these "B" units only used for yard work, or also used for = longer hauls, as an F7B would be used? =20 3) Were numberboards removed from all "B" units? =20 4) Was the PRR herald painted on all EFS17m units and then later = painted over, or is this "B" unit just a fluke? =20 And an "off-the-wall" question: =20 5) What the heck does the "E" stand for in DGLE? =20 Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C399B8.E9951680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 

To add to the other posts, these = units were=20 delivered to the PRR in two groups in 11-12/1957 and 10-12/1959 as class = EFS17m=20 and the groups were numbered 7175B–7204B & 7230B-7239B=20 respectively.

To be technical, the GP9B was not a = slug, but a=20 booster unit. The difference being that a slug is a "locomotive" that = has only=20 traction motors and is powered from the electricity generated by its = slug mate=20 or mother . A booster is a complete locomotive with a diesel prime = mover,=20 generator (or alternator) traction motors etc., but do not have a cab=20 and the normal controls/equipment housed within. The GP9B was very = similar=20 to an F-unit "B", in this case, an F9B specifically, basically in a = different body.  

As Elden noted, they were delivered = without the=20 lighted numberboards on the ends.

When delivered in the paint scheme with=20 "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out, they did not have keystones on the ends. At = least a=20 couple received the end keystones later while still wearing the = roadname. When=20 the name was removed in the 1960's, numerous keystones were added to = units,=20 including the ends.

Jack Consoli

 

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Thursday, October 23, = 2003 3:53=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Class EFS17m=20 Questions

Hello, everyone.
 
I was going through the EFS17m pix on the KC = site, and=20 came across #7176B, a slug unit.
 
I first noted that although other GP9s did not = have a=20 PRR herald on the front, this B unit did.
 
After looking the picture over I found I had a = few=20 questions:
 
1)  When did the PRR start making their = "B" units=20 of this class?  I'm guessing they did, from the way the unit = number is=20 applied over "fresh" DGLE paint on the engineer side of the = unit.
 
2)  Were these "B" units only used=20  for yard work, or also used for longer = hauls, as=20 an F7B would be used?
 
3)  Were numberboards removed = from all "B"=20 units?
 
4)  Was the PRR herald painted on all = EFS17m units=20 and then later painted over, or is this "B" unit just a = fluke?
 
And an "off-the-wall" question:
 
5)  What the heck does the "E" stand for = in=20 DGLE?
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all = outgoing=20 mail."
 
------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C399B8.E9951680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:32:16 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ugzUQSSmUQheXzPoK3F6xA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jack, Thank you also for your input. Since I read it, I kind of remember such units being referred to as boosters. That date/number grouping was very helpful. I also seem to remember reading (at different times) that the first generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F units, and further that the booster F units had a provision so that they could be moved without being MUed to a cab unit. I'm probably all wrong on that last point, though. My questions came up in a round-about fashion. I was culling a batch of MR mags to see which articles I wanted to "chop and save" to clear out some space, and came across the Dec '02 issue which had an article on EMD's GP9s. >From there it was a computer move to Jerry's KC site, and finding that picture of #7176B. Now I don't feel so bad about the one LL GP18 that keeps threatening to die on me. When it does, I know exactly what it's going to turn into! ;-> Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: jconsoli To: Zak ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Zak, To add to the other posts, these units were delivered to the PRR in two groups in 11-12/1957 and 10-12/1959 as class EFS17m and the groups were numbered 7175B-7204B & 7230B-7239B respectively. To be technical, the GP9B was not a slug, but a booster unit. The difference being that a slug is a "locomotive" that has only traction motors and is powered from the electricity generated by its slug mate or mother . A booster is a complete locomotive with a diesel prime mover, generator (or alternator) traction motors etc., but do not have a cab and the normal controls/equipment housed within. The GP9B was very similar to an F-unit "B", in this case, an F9B specifically, basically in a different body. As Elden noted, they were delivered without the lighted numberboards on the ends. When delivered in the paint scheme with "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out, they did not have keystones on the ends. At least a couple received the end keystones later while still wearing the roadname. When the name was removed in the 1960's, numerous keystones were added to units, including the ends. Jack Consoli --Boundary_(ID_ugzUQSSmUQheXzPoK3F6xA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Jack,
 
Thank you also for your input.  Since I = read it, I=20 kind of remember such units being referred to as boosters.  That=20 date/number grouping was very helpful.
 
I also seem to remember reading (at different = times) that=20 the first generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F units, and = further=20 that the booster F units had a provision so that they could be moved = without=20 being MUed to a cab unit.
 
I'm probably all wrong on that last point,=20 though.
 
My questions came up in a round-about = fashion.  I was=20 culling a batch of MR mags to see which articles I wanted to "chop and = save" to=20 clear out some space, and came across the Dec '02 issue which had an = article on=20 EMD's GP9s.
 
From there it was a computer move to Jerry's KC = site, and=20 finding that picture of #7176B.
 
Now I don't feel so bad about the one LL GP18 = that keeps=20 threatening to die on me.  When it does, I know exactly what it's = going to=20 turn into!  ;->
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing = mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 jconsoli
To: Zak ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Thursday, October 23, = 2003 10:56=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m = Questions

Zak,
 

To add to the other posts, these = units were=20 delivered to the PRR in two groups in 11-12/1957 and 10-12/1959 as = class=20 EFS17m and the groups were numbered 7175B=967204B & 7230B-7239B=20 respectively.

To be technical, the GP9B was not = a slug, but=20 a booster unit. The difference being that a slug is a "locomotive" = that has=20 only traction motors and is powered from the electricity generated by = its slug=20 mate or mother . A booster is a complete locomotive with a diesel = prime mover,=20 generator (or alternator) traction motors etc., but do not have a cab=20 and the normal controls/equipment housed within. The GP9B was = very=20 similar to an F-unit "B", in this case, an F9B specifically, = basically in=20 a different body.  

As Elden noted, they were delivered = without the=20 lighted numberboards on the ends.

When delivered in the paint scheme with = "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out, they did not have keystones on the ends. = At least=20 a couple received the end keystones later while still wearing the = roadname.=20 When the name was removed in the 1960's, numerous keystones were added = to=20 units, including the ends.

Jack=20 Consoli

--Boundary_(ID_ugzUQSSmUQheXzPoK3F6xA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:35:28 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] NH State of Maine Boxcars --------------Boundary-00=_4VE9QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, is there a picture/ scannable copy of the "SOM" boxcar with the NH script herald? It may be a stretch, but one or several of these could have made it to the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Jim=0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Dominic Mazoch=0D Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 7:42:54 PM=0D To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: [PRR] NH State of Maine Boxcars=0D =0D >From what I understand, the NH placed an add on order to the BAR "SOM" order. The HN just wanted the cars in boxcar read, but the change would h= ave resulted in $350 increase in the price of each car. So, they just kept th= e SOM paint, with NH script for the RR ID.=0D =0D =0D Dominic Mazoch=0D =0D ________________________________________________________________=0D The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!=0D Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!=0D Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!=0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_4VE9QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Hi everyone, is there a picture/ scannable copy of t= he "SOM" boxcar with the NH script herald?  It may be a stretch, but= one or several of these could have made it to the Pittsburgh Produce Ter= minal.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks Jim
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Wednesday, O= ctober 22, 2003 7:42:54 PM
Subject: [PRR] NH = State of Maine Boxcars
 
>From what I understand, the NH placed an add on order to the BAR= "SOM" order. The HN just wanted the cars in boxcar read, but the change = would have resulted in $350 increase in the price of each car. So, they j= ust kept the SOM paint, with NH script for the RR ID.
 
 
Dominic Mazoch
 
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.= com to sign up today!
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
 
.
--------------Boundary-00=_4VE9QL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:51:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C39A0C.17A68560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: The GP9B units were delivered to the PRR in two groups in 11-12/1957 and 10-12/1959 as class EFS17m and the groups were numbered 7175B-7204B & 7230B-7239B respectively. As part of the pre-merger numbering program they were renumbered in the 3000 block, with all of the other PRR and NYC B units. Specifically 3800-3839. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C39A0C.17A68560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Re:  The=20 GP9B units were delivered to the PRR in two groups in 11-12/1957 = and=20 10-12/1959 as class EFS17m and the groups were numbered = 7175B–7204B &=20 7230B-7239B respectively.
 
As = part of the=20 pre-merger numbering program they were renumbered in the 3000 block, = with all of=20 the other PRR and NYC B units. Specifically = 3800-3839.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C39A0C.17A68560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:57:07 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] NH State of Maine Boxcars For interest, i passed some of this to a friend, a noted NH Modeller, historian and (in his youth) NY City Resident. Herewith his comments: ======================================================= > Most (if not all) of the NH Potatoe cars ended up in the Harlem River > yards. I remember seeing them while playing ball on Randalls Island > (which is across the Bronx Kills from the yards). However, I do not > remember seeing them in the long freights that rolled across the > Hellgate to Bayside. Therefore, I would conclude that these cars > were dispatched by car float from the Bronx rather than from Bay Ridge. > While I can not prove this, I would suspect that the NH cars were used > to deliver potatos to southern New England and New York City, while > the far more numerous BAR cars were used to send potatos to the rest of > the country, probably via the B&M, B&A or the NH Maybrook line. > I do not remember seeing any of the BAR cars in the NH Harlem River > yards, or on the NYC West Side Freight Line. ========================================================== -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:54:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion From: Michael E Allen You are right. I forgot the baggage car which was converted to a locomotive and the four trailer coaches. MEA On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:51:37 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" writes: > List, > > Believe the Piedmont and Northern had a couple of MP54's, and > Consolidades > de Cuba as well. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael E Allen" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion > > > > I believe you should delete CTDot from that list and add: NYS&W > (ex-B&M), > > Tuckerton, Union Transportation (Pemberton & Hightstown), > Washington > > Union Terminal, SEPTA, and Midland Continental (tripe combine). > Then > > there are those that went to tourist roads. > > > > Anybody have any others? > > > > MEA > > > > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:04:16 -0400 "Andrew S. Miller" > > writes in relevant part: > > > > >>>>> For prototype modelers it could be decorated for PRR, > LIRR, B&M, > > PSRL, PC, CR, NJDoT, CTDoT and probably others. For > > generic model RRs it could be offered undec but painted tuscan red > or > > pullman green. <<<<< > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:38:13 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] MP54 Hello, all, RE the presence of mP54 coaches, etc. all over the PRR system, they certainly did serve in areas that were later electrified but also in places which were never considered for electrification - for example, branchline runs out of Tyrone. I have copies of passenger equipment lists and consists lists for the PRR from the WW I era which confirm this. What sometimes seems to confuse us is that while these cars were always designated as "M", they were also designed and intended for areas which would never receive electrification. Logic would dictate that these particular cars therefore be called P54 but as far as I know, the PRR never used this designation - the cars always were called MP54. I prefer "mP54" because it helps remind us that those non- electrified cars which lasted until the end of local service on parts of the PRR were not just cars that had somehow escaped being electrified. No, I think the PRR understood from the beginning that within their large fleet of "__54" cars, some would never be electrified. How if someone would jsut come out with a good affordable model!! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: [PRR] Triumph Vol 7 - Northern Division? Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:26:47 +0000 Did I see a recent message regarding a planned PRR Triumph volume that will cover the Northern Division? If true, this will be a "must-have" for me, as I'm well into planning a new N scale Susquehanna District layout... Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph Vol 7 - Northern Division? From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 11:26 AM, amato@mchsi.com wrote: > Did I see a recent message regarding a planned PRR Triumph volume that > will > cover the Northern Division? If true, this will be a "must-have" for > me, as > I'm well into planning a new N scale Susquehanna District layout... Yes, but you are a year away. "Triumph VI" is on the Maryland division and is being released today. I will get my stock on Sunday. "Triumph VII" is on the Northern division and you'll have to wait for Fall 2004. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] NH State of Maine Boxcars Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:49:25 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "davep" To: Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] NH State of Maine Boxcars > For interest, i passed some of this to a friend, > a noted NH Modeller, historian and (in his youth) > NY City Resident. Herewith his comments: > > ======================================================= > > > Most (if not all) of the NH Potatoe cars ended up in the Harlem River .. Wow! You know Dan Quayle! ;-) ---- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:06:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 --- gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: > RE the presence of mP54 coaches, etc. all over the PRR system, they > certainly > did serve in areas that were later electrified but also in places > which were > never considered for electrification - for example, branchline runs > out of > Tyrone. My speculation regarding the MP54's on the Pitsburgh Div. arose out of a thread elsewhere, in which folks reported commuter trains in the Pittsburgh area using P70 coaches, except on the Pittsburgh-Derry runs, which used MP54's. Why the difference? The only clear difference was that there was a long-standing interest in electrifying either the Pittsburgh Div. or the entire main line, but not the other lines radiating out of Pittsburgh. Such plans seem to have surfaced a bit before WW1 and were still on the table, so to speak, in the immediate post-WW2 era. See Mike Bezilla's "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad..." > Logic would dictate that these particular cars therefore be called > P54 but as > far as I know, the PRR never used this designation - the cars > always were > called MP54. But were not the very first MP54's cars which were withdrawn from service and fitted with motors at Altoona for use on the Paoli electrification? Would they not have been P54 coaches prior to that surgery? Certainly not MP54, since there was no question of motors prior to the Paoli electrification. > No, I > think the PRR understood from the beginning that within their large > fleet > of "__54" cars, some would never be electrified. Perhaps as time passed the hope that certain plans would reach fruition faded and thus allowed equipment, reserved against those plans, to be disbursed to other uses? > How if someone would jsut come out with a good affordable model!! Amen to that. Without the integral headlight, please. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:29:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 11/22 and MP-54 On 11/22/63, I found out about the assassination several hours after it happened, waiting for a bus on a street corner in Freeport, LI, NY after just riding the LIRR from Flatbush Avenue. The train from Brooklyn to Jamaica was almost certainly composed of MP54's. I think they were the only passenger equipment allowed into Flatbush Ave at the time. Now that's an unlikely combination of two threads! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:54:02 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars All right, this one has gone a day without an answer, so I'll take a stab at it - knowing that if I am wrong, it will inspire the real experts to gleefully straighten me out ;-) I don't believe there ever was a class of cars designated "MS60". It stood for mail storage equivalent to 60 feet. It was used in make up of trains to indicate that a suitable car must be provided. However, any of several classes or types of cars could be used. Perhaps B60 baggage cars were most commonly provided, but X29s in passenger service, R50b's, off road baggage cars, REA express reefers, etc were often used. As long as it could hold the required volume and weight of mail and be sealed by the Post Office, it would do. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jeff Smith wrote: > What is the difference between a B60 and an MS60 baggage? Jeff > SmithManheim, Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:59:16 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] 11/22/63 --------------Boundary-00=_SMW9QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me, I was in 8th grade. I had cut class to watch the afternoon parade al= ong the Ohio River on the Fort Worth line to and from Conway yard. Ended up with a one day suspension. I hate "rats", at least sometimes. Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Tom Hayden=0D Date: Thursday, October 23, 2003 2:52:30 PM=0D To: PRR-Talk=0D Subject: [PRR] 11/22/63=0D =0D Guys,=0D =0D I am often amazed at how so many of you guys can remember dates and where= =0D you were at the time. But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well exact= ly=0D where I was.=0D =0D Tom Hayden=0D =0D =0D >=0D >-----Original Message-----=0D >From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]=0D >=0D >see FA's west of Crestline. In 11-63 (11-22-63 I was moving into my hous= e in=0D >Canton) I was assigned to Canton diesel shop=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_SMW9QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me, I was in 8th grade.  I had cut class to watch the afternoon= parade along the Ohio River on the Fort Worth line to and from Conway ya= rd.  Ended up with a one day suspension.  I hate "rats", at lea= st sometimes.  Jim
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Oc= tober 23, 2003 2:52:30 PM
Subject: [PRR] 11/= 22/63
 
Guys,
 
I am often amazed at how so many of you guys can remember dates and = where
you were at the time. But 11/22/63 is one date even I remember well = exactly
where I was.
 
Tom Hayden
 
 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>see FA's west of Crestline. In 11-63 (11-22-63 I was moving into= my house in
>Canton) I was assigned to Canton diesel shop
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
 
.
--------------Boundary-00=_SMW9QL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:33:27 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers Zak wrote: > Jack, > > Thank you also for your input. Since I read it, I kind of remember such units being referred to as boosters. That date/number grouping was very helpful. > > I also seem to remember reading (at different times) that the first generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F units, and further that the booster F units had a provision so that they could be moved without being MUed to a cab unit. > > I'm probably all wrong on that last point, though. >> >> SNIP Geeps and F units had different frame designs. The Geep frames are like a girder bridge, while the F unit frames are like a truss bridge. Yes, the units could be moved by themselves. The 'Hostler Controls' could be activated to move the unit for servicing, etc. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:39:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1923 Passenger Roster From: Jerry @ Pennsy While all know by now that I have the 1954 passenger equipment roster online as a searchable database...which is also available via PDF...and Colquit published a subset of the same data... I had forgotten and just rediscovered that I had acquired a 1923 version of the same type of document. Lists all PRR passenger equipment on the roster. Eventually this will get online, but I still have a lot to do on the 1954 roster. In the mean time, if there are early passenger modelers out there that need a lookup, drop me a line! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:43:41 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29 BX number series with some major corrections Let's go back and look at this one more time for the record... In a message dated 10/22/03 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars > From: "parkvarieties" > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:01:10 -0400 > > Fred, > > Closest ORPTE I have to your 1939 period is 1944. In the 1944 > Register, X29's equiped for passenger train service are listed as follows: > 2000-2499 (499 cars) > 5000-5018 (7 cars) > 9456-9594 (138 cars) > 49314-57641 (224 cars) > 97749-103324 (167 cars) > 566091-574090 (2 cars) > > Hope this helps you out. > Frank Brua Fred, Frank, and Ben, Our recent thread on the X29 BX cars, popularly known as the "Railway Express Agency" boxcars, bugged me. Let me remind everyone that I am referring to these with the PRR class X29, and the AAR Mechanical Code BX. These boxcars were originally built as X29 revenue freight cars, but the grouping of interest were shopped and received appliances suitable for high speed passenger service -- steam lines, extra steps and grabs, and sometimes different trucks or 110 volt electrical lighting for loading and unloading. The cars altered for this service were still basically X29's in dimensions, so did not become a separate class. OTOH, they are easy to spot in an ORER or ORPTE because they are AAR Code BX, for express boxcar. Also, it helps to remember that the earlier name for AAR Mechanical Code is "MCB Code" (Master Car Builder Code). We've hammered at this subject before, but I was particularly irked how little I knew about them pre-1943 (my earliest Xeroxed ORPTE). A couple of days after my last posting, I remembered that I had Al Westerfield's CD of Pennsy ORER's in an "In Someday" basket, and spent some sleepless hours crawling through them. Once I got used to the fact I might find passenger equipment listings at the beginning, end, or middle of these huge lists of JPEG's, things began to make more sense. Thus, let's go around one more time: 1. First of all, recognize that the last three series shown above are "freight" numbers. I always thought those series came along in the Thirties and were the oldest X29 BX's., but I can't find them in ORER listings earlier than April 1943, and I don't have earlier ORPTE's. 2. These three freight series continued almost intact, disappearing between Dec 1958 and Dec 1965 -- either scrapping or renumbering (to 9610-9900) are possible fates. In any case, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 in CK with "REA" markings in Volume 8 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, p 14. 3. The 2000-2498 was the first "passenger" series of numbers to be used, and these X29's may have appeared as early as 1934 -- PRR passenger equipment listings that early give MCB codes like BX, but not car classes. We must be careful here because these cars are known to have replaced a fleet of almost 500 X25 BX's numbered 2000-2498 which served as an earlier generation of express boxcars. This series is down to 90 cars in 1934, and builds back up to 499 in 1943 (all of the latter are definitely listed as X29's). 4.Later X29 BX (express box) conversions were also given 4-digit "passenger" numbers. 9460-9569 appears in 1943, and five more series are added between 1958 and 1965, raising total X29 BX car count from 1030 to 1489 -- I've been told there was a boom in magazine traffic in that period. I notice that photos of these added series are scarce; as usual, the railfans all got their pix of the earlier (2000-2498) cars and then stopped shooting. 5. The numbers Frank shows us above agree exactly with the March 1943 ORPTE. However, the 5000-5018 are "Crew Express" cars with AAR mechanical class NE. These seven cars were actually N5 "passenger" cabin cars (the Pennsy originally had about 23 of them if you go back far enough). For example, 5010? is shown at Lewistown Junction in the PRRT&HS book on Lewistown. I've been learning more about lettering of these cars as I go along. Some items: 6. Those pre-X29 express boxes, the X25's, were NOT in "freight" numbers as I originally thought. And I really don't know if they reverted to freight service; they were less than 20 years old, but were outdated, and this was during the Depression. Photo evidence says these X25's were marked "Adams Express" before Adams became part of "American Railway Express", renamed "Railway Express Agency" in 1929. Only picture of this I've indexed is #2404, probably in the 1920's, again on page 14 of RPC8. Logic says an "American Railway Express" version may have existed on the X25, and there may have been time to letter some with "Railway Express Agency". 7. Referring all the way back to Brady McGuire's 1988 Keystone article on boxcar lettering (or for that matter, the phase descriptions in my recent covered hopper article), we would expect the Adams Express photo in RPC8 to be an adaptation of lettering phase NK3. In actuality, the simplified passenger-or-nonrevenue lettering seen gives us few cues. 8. The much-beloved "Railway Express Agency" markings are a different story. Both photos and arrangement drawings make it clear that this is a complete CK paint job, with the circle keystone logo raised to make room for "Railway Express" on one line and "Agency" on the next. Vic Roseman's Guide to the Railway Express Agency shows us this scheme on X29's as early as 1940, and it undoubtedly went earlier (we need pictures). 9. I've read comments that some examples of this CK-REA scheme may have still been on the road at the time of the merger. Still, the post-PC-merger photos I took were of cars in later schemes -- SK2a, SK2b, UK (the last three phases) show up in my slides and also in published pix. Of course, these schemes leave off the Railway Express Agency legend; in some cases nothing shows through the road dirt but the keystone and the reporting marks. If you're not already disgusted, keep in mind that the above is true and complete only until the next bit of data arrives... for example, I badly need a review of a January 1951 and December 1958 ORPTE. I'd also like to fill in the hole between 1958 and 1965 with at least one more data point. When I get this cleaned up, I'll share the resulting table. One question for Frank: what is the cover date of your 1944 ORPTE? Further, is the PRR section separately dated with the actual date of the data, and if so, what month? Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:43:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 BX number series with some major corrections --part1_31.3f994308.2ccaccdd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's go back and look at this one more time for the record... In a message dated 10/22/03 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars > From: "parkvarieties" > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:01:10 -0400 > > Fred, > > Closest ORPTE I have to your 1939 period is 1944. In the 1944 > Register, X29's equiped for passenger train service are listed as follows: > 2000-2499 (499 cars) > 5000-5018 (7 cars) > 9456-9594 (138 cars) > 49314-57641 (224 cars) > 97749-103324 (167 cars) > 566091-574090 (2 cars) > > Hope this helps you out. > Frank Brua Fred, Frank, and Ben, Our recent thread on the X29 BX cars, popularly known as the "Railway Express Agency" boxcars, bugged me. Let me remind everyone that I am referring to these with the PRR class X29, and the AAR Mechanical Code BX. These boxcars were originally built as X29 revenue freight cars, but the grouping of interest were shopped and received appliances suitable for high speed passenger service -- steam lines, extra steps and grabs, and sometimes different trucks or 110 volt electrical lighting for loading and unloading. The cars altered for this service were still basically X29's in dimensions, so did not become a separate class. OTOH, they are easy to spot in an ORER or ORPTE because they are AAR Code BX, for express boxcar. Also, it helps to remember that the earlier name for AAR Mechanical Code is "MCB Code" (Master Car Builder Code). We've hammered at this subject before, but I was particularly irked how little I knew about them pre-1943 (my earliest Xeroxed ORPTE). A couple of days after my last posting, I remembered that I had Al Westerfield's CD of Pennsy ORER's in an "In Someday" basket, and spent some sleepless hours crawling through them. Once I got used to the fact I might find passenger equipment listings at the beginning, end, or middle of these huge lists of JPEG's, things began to make more sense. Thus, let's go around one more time: 1. First of all, recognize that the last three series shown above are "freight" numbers. I always thought those series came along in the Thirties and were the oldest X29 BX's., but I can't find them in ORER listings earlier than April 1943, and I don't have earlier ORPTE's. 2. These three freight series continued almost intact, disappearing between Dec 1958 and Dec 1965 -- either scrapping or renumbering (to 9610-9900) are possible fates. In any case, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 in CK with "REA" markings in Volume 8 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, p 14. 3. The 2000-2498 was the first "passenger" series of numbers to be used, and these X29's may have appeared as early as 1934 -- PRR passenger equipment listings that early give MCB codes like BX, but not car classes. We must be careful here because these cars are known to have replaced a fleet of almost 500 X25 BX's numbered 2000-2498 which served as an earlier generation of express boxcars. This series is down to 90 cars in 1934, and builds back up to 499 in 1943 (all of the latter are definitely listed as X29's). 4.Later X29 BX (express box) conversions were also given 4-digit "passenger" numbers. 9460-9569 appears in 1943, and five more series are added between 1958 and 1965, raising total X29 BX car count from 1030 to 1489 -- I've been told there was a boom in magazine traffic in that period. I notice that photos of these added series are scarce; as usual, the railfans all got their pix of the earlier (2000-2498) cars and then stopped shooting. 5. The numbers Frank shows us above agree exactly with the March 1943 ORPTE. However, the 5000-5018 are "Crew Express" cars with AAR mechanical class NE. These seven cars were actually N5 "passenger" cabin cars (the Pennsy originally had about 23 of them if you go back far enough). For example, 5010? is shown at Lewistown Junction in the PRRT&HS book on Lewistown. I've been learning more about lettering of these cars as I go along. Some items: 6. Those pre-X29 express boxes, the X25's, were NOT in "freight" numbers as I originally thought. And I really don't know if they reverted to freight service; they were less than 20 years old, but were outdated, and this was during the Depression. Photo evidence says these X25's were marked "Adams Express" before Adams became part of "American Railway Express", renamed "Railway Express Agency" in 1929. Only picture of this I've indexed is #2404, probably in the 1920's, again on page 14 of RPC8. Logic says an "American Railway Express" version may have existed on the X25, and there may have been time to letter some with "Railway Express Agency". 7. Referring all the way back to Brady McGuire's 1988 Keystone article on boxcar lettering (or for that matter, the phase descriptions in my recent covered hopper article), we would expect the Adams Express photo in RPC8 to be an adaptation of lettering phase NK3. In actuality, the simplified passenger-or-nonrevenue lettering seen gives us few cues. 8. The much-beloved "Railway Express Agency" markings are a different story. Both photos and arrangement drawings make it clear that this is a complete CK paint job, with the circle keystone logo raised to make room for "Railway Express" on one line and "Agency" on the next. Vic Roseman's Guide to the Railway Express Agency shows us this scheme on X29's as early as 1940, and it undoubtedly went earlier (we need pictures). 9. I've read comments that some examples of this CK-REA scheme may have still been on the road at the time of the merger. Still, the post-PC-merger photos I took were of cars in later schemes -- SK2a, SK2b, UK (the last three phases) show up in my slides and also in published pix. Of course, these schemes leave off the Railway Express Agency legend; in some cases nothing shows through the road dirt but the keystone and the reporting marks. If you're not already disgusted, keep in mind that the above is true and complete only until the next bit of data arrives... for example, I badly need a review of a January 1951 and December 1958 ORPTE. I'd also like to fill in the hole between 1958 and 1965 with at least one more data point. When I get this cleaned up, I'll share the resulting table. One question for Frank: what is the cover date of your 1944 ORPTE? Further, is the PRR section separately dated with the actual date of the data, and if so, what month? Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_31.3f994308.2ccaccdd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's go back and look at this one more time for the r= ecord...

In a message dated 10/22/03 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.= com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers= of X29 Railway Express cars
From: "parkvarieties" <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:01:10 -0400

Fred,

Closest ORPTE I have to your 1939 period is 1944.  In the 1944
Register, X29's equiped for passenger train service are listed as follows: 2000-2499 (499 cars)
5000-5018 (7 cars)
9456-9594 (138 cars)
49314-57641 (224 cars)
97749-103324 (167 cars)
566091-574090 (2 cars)

Hope this helps you out.
Frank Brua


Fred, Frank, and Ben,

Our recent thread on the X29 BX cars, popularly known as the "Railway Expres= s Agency" boxcars, bugged me.  Let me remind everyone that I am referri= ng to these with the PRR class X29, and the AAR Mechanical Code BX.  Th= ese boxcars were originally built as X29 revenue freight cars, but the group= ing of interest were shopped and received appliances suitable for high speed= passenger service -- steam lines, extra steps and grabs, and sometimes diff= erent trucks or 110 volt electrical lighting for loading and unloading. = ; The cars altered for this service were still basically X29's in dimensions= , so did not become a separate class.  OTOH, they are easy to spot in a= n ORER or ORPTE because they are AAR Code BX, for express boxcar.  Also= , it helps to remember that the earlier name for AAR Mechanical Code is "MCB= Code" (Master Car Builder Code).

We've hammered at this subject before, but I was particularly irked how litt= le I knew about them pre-1943 (my earliest Xeroxed ORPTE).  A couple of= days after my last posting, I remembered that I had Al Westerfield's CD of=20= Pennsy ORER's in an "In Someday" basket, and spent some sleepless hours craw= ling through them.  Once I got used to the fact I might find passenger=20= equipment listings at the beginning, end, or middle of these huge lists of J= PEG's, things began to make more sense.  Thus, let's go around one more= time:

1. First of all, recognize that the last three series shown above are "freig= ht" numbers.  I always thought those series came along in the Thirties=20= and were the oldest X29 BX's., but I can't find them in ORER listings earlie= r than April 1943, and I don't have earlier ORPTE's.

2. These three freight series continued almost intact, disappearing between=20= Dec 1958 and Dec 1965 -- either scrapping or renumbering (to 9610-9900) are=20= possible fates.  In any case, there is a circa 1952 picture of #51387 i= n CK with "REA" markings in Volume 8 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, p=20= 14.

3. The 2000-2498 was the first "passenger" series of numbers to be used, and= these X29's may have appeared as early as 1934 -- PRR passenger equipment l= istings that early give MCB codes like BX, but not car classes.  We mus= t be careful here because these cars are known to have replaced a fleet of a= lmost 500 X25 BX's numbered 2000-2498 which served as an earlier generation=20= of express boxcars.  This series is down to 90 cars in 1934, and builds= back up to 499 in 1943 (all of the latter are definitely listed as X29's).<= BR>
4.Later X29 BX (express box) conversions were also given 4-digit "passenger"= numbers.  9460-9569 appears in 1943, and five more series are added be= tween 1958 and 1965, raising total X29 BX car count from 1030 to 1489 -- I'v= e been told there was a boom in magazine traffic in that period.  I not= ice that photos of these added series are scarce; as usual, the railfans all= got their pix of the earlier (2000-2498) cars and then stopped shooting.
5.  The numbers Frank shows us above agree exactly with the March 1943=20= ORPTE.  However, the 5000-5018 are "Crew Express" cars with AAR mechani= cal class NE.  These seven cars were actually N5 "passenger" cabin cars= (the Pennsy originally had about 23 of them if you go back far enough).&nbs= p; For example, 5010? is shown at Lewistown Junction in the PRRT&HS book= on Lewistown.

I've been learning more about lettering of these cars as I go along.  S= ome items:

6.  Those pre-X29 express boxes, the X25's, were NOT in "freight" numbe= rs as I originally thought.  And I really don't know if they reverted t= o freight service; they were less than 20 years old, but were outdated, and=20= this was during the Depression.  Photo evidence says these X25's were m= arked "Adams Express" before Adams became part of "American Railway Express"= , renamed "Railway Express Agency" in 1929.  Only picture of this I've=20= indexed is #2404, probably in the 1920's, again on page 14 of RPC8.  Lo= gic says an "American Railway Express" version may have existed on the X25,=20= and there may have been time to letter some with "Railway Express Agency".
7.  Referring all the way back to Brady McGuire's 1988 Keystone article= on boxcar lettering (or for that matter, the phase descriptions in my recen= t covered hopper article), we would expect the Adams Express photo in RPC8 t= o be an adaptation of lettering phase NK3.  In actuality, the simplifie= d passenger-or-nonrevenue lettering seen gives us few cues.

8.  The much-beloved "Railway Express Agency" markings are a different=20= story.  Both photos and arrangement drawings make it clear that this is= a complete CK paint job, with the circle keystone logo raised to make room=20= for "Railway Express" on one line and "Agency" on the next.  Vic Rosema= n's Guide to the Railway Express Agency shows us this scheme on X29's as ear= ly as 1940, and it undoubtedly went earlier (we need pictures).

9.  I've read comments that some examples of this CK-REA scheme may hav= e still been on the road at the time of the merger.  Still, the post-PC= -merger photos I took were of cars in later schemes -- SK2a, SK2b, UK (the l= ast three phases) show up in my slides and also in published pix.  Of c= ourse, these schemes leave off the Railway Express Agency legend; in some ca= ses nothing shows through the road dirt but the keystone and the reporting m= arks.

If you're not already disgusted, keep in mind that the above is true and com= plete only until the next bit of data arrives... for example, I badly need a= review of a January 1951 and December 1958 ORPTE.  I'd also like to fi= ll in the hole between 1958 and 1965 with at least one more data point. = ; When I get this cleaned up, I'll share the resulting table.

One question for Frank: what is the cover date of your 1944 ORPTE?  Fur= ther, is the PRR section separately dated with the actual date of the data,=20= and if so, what month?

Thanks,

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_31.3f994308.2ccaccdd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:44:26 -0400 It appears that at one time there was indeed a MS60 class which looks to have been a variant of B60. From looking at an early (unfortunately undated) equipment diagram the B60 and MS60 were shown on the same diagram (see: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=B60_MS60_fp-.gif ) it appears that the MS60 had stanchions inside and the B60 did not. Later revisions of the diagrams (I think 1931) had the MS60 crossed out and replaced with B60 and the B60 is listed as having swinging stanchions. See: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=B60_MS60_fp-E29571.gif ) Circular No. 146-D from 1916 (at http://prr.railfan.net/documents/pdf/Circulars/146-D_300mono.pdf ) lists the B60 as introduced in 1906 and having swinging stanchions and the MS60 as introduced in 1909 and doesn't have a note about stanchions. The MS60 is gone by the next 146 I have online which is 146-F from 1931 (http://prr.railfan.net/documents/pdf/Circulars/146-F_300mono.pdf ) I'm still looking for a copy of 146-E for the website so I don't know if the MS60 was still listed in that issue... >From this it appears that the class differentiation was the presence or absence of stanchions and I'm GUESSING that later on the stanchions were either changed (all cars to swinging stanchions?) eliminating the differentiation or they decided that it wasn't a big enough difference to have 2 classes. Does anyone know for sure?! As usual, a question answered with another question! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:54 PM > To: Jeff Smith > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars > > > All right, this one has gone a day without an answer, so I'll take a > stab at it - knowing that if I am wrong, it will inspire the real > experts to gleefully straighten me out ;-) > > I don't believe there ever was a class of cars designated "MS60". It > stood for mail storage equivalent to 60 feet. It was used in make up of > trains to indicate that a suitable car must be provided. However, any of > several classes or types of cars could be used. Perhaps B60 baggage > cars were most commonly provided, but X29s in passenger service, R50b's, > off road baggage cars, REA express reefers, etc were often used. As > long as it could hold the required volume and weight of mail and be > sealed by the Post Office, it would do. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > Jeff Smith wrote: > > > What is the difference between a B60 and an MS60 baggage? Jeff > > SmithManheim, Pa > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another FGE Paint Scheme Question Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:46:31 -0500 Another data point in the FGEX discussion--In "Philip Hastings--Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad" on page 12 is a photo of FGEX 33374 with just REFRIGERATOR and at least one open roof hatch. The caption doesn't show the date of the photo, but the train is steam powered so it is prior to Nov. 1957. The L&N PS-1 box was built in mid 1952 so we have 1954 pretty well bracketed. Steve Hoxie Pensacoal FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph Vol 7 - Northern Division? Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:49:23 +0000 Fall 2004? Drat! Well, at least I have the 1965 interlocking book, and the USGS topo maps, so I'm off to a good start. Besides, my train time is limited, with a 3-year old and 10-month old at home. By the time I get some benchwork and staging up, it may be next fall! Frank > On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 11:26 AM, amato@mchsi.com wrote: > > > Did I see a recent message regarding a planned PRR Triumph volume that > > will > > cover the Northern Division? If true, this will be a "must-have" for > > me, as > > I'm well into planning a new N scale Susquehanna District layout... > > Yes, but you are a year away. "Triumph VI" is on the Maryland division > and is being released today. I will get my stock on Sunday. "Triumph > VII" is on the Northern division and you'll have to wait for Fall 2004. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:25:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars --part1_68.368a16d6.2ccad6aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've a book which is supposed to be a reprint of a PRR "Make-Up of Trains, NY Region No. 4, In effect 2:00 A.M. Sunday Oct 27, 1957." In any case, in the explanation of symbols and characters used in make-up of passenger trains section, which shows B60 (Baggage Car - Ventilator Type), B60B (Baggage car - Balloon type), B70 (Baggage Car), B70A (Scenery Car) , B74A (Horse Car) and B74B (Horse Car - end door), MS60 (Mail Storage Car), BM70 (Baggage and Mail) besides the usual RPO's and combination cars G.F.Payne Baltimore MD --part1_68.368a16d6.2ccad6aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've a book which is supposed to be a reprint of a PRR= "Make-Up of Trains, NY Region No. 4, In effect 2:00 A.M. Sunday Oct 27, 195= 7." In any case, in the explanation of symbols and characters used in make-u= p of passenger trains section, which shows B60 (Baggage Car - Ventilator Typ= e), B60B (Baggage car - Balloon type), B70 (Baggage Car), B70A (Scenery Car)= , B74A (Horse Car) and B74B (Horse Car - end door), MS60 (Mail Storage Car)= , BM70 (Baggage and Mail) besides the usual RPO's and combination cars

G.F.Payne
Baltimore MD --part1_68.368a16d6.2ccad6aa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:32:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 BX number series with some major corrections From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 02:43 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > 6.=A0 Those pre-X29 express boxes, the X25's, were NOT in "freight"=20 > numbers as I originally thought. That 1923 passenger roster I mentioned earlier shows the X25's. > =A0 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:51:10 -0500 Andy, I let it go for the same reason you gave, waiting for an expert. FWIW, your description fits my understanding exactly. Eloquently worded. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" > All right, this one has gone a day without an answer, so I'll take a > stab at it - knowing that if I am wrong, it will inspire the real > experts to gleefully straighten me out ;-) > > I don't believe there ever was a class of cars designated "MS60". It > stood for mail storage equivalent to 60 feet. It was used in make up of > trains to indicate that a suitable car must be provided. However, any of > several classes or types of cars could be used. Perhaps B60 baggage > cars were most commonly provided, but X29s in passenger service, R50b's, > off road baggage cars, REA express reefers, etc were often used. As > long as it could hold the required volume and weight of mail and be > sealed by the Post Office, it would do. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:12:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 vs MS60 baggage cars From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 01:54 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I don't believe there ever was a class of cars designated "MS60". It > stood for mail storage equivalent to 60 feet. Perusing the 1923 Passenger Equipment Register No. 1... There are class MS60 cars! They first appear on page 111. 6624-6650 listed as Postal Storage, featuring steam heat and "EG" light, which translates to "Axle Generator System". 7292-7299, some with "EG", some with "EB" (Straight Storage System) light. 8584-8592, some EG some EB. 9774-9776, same. So, in 1923 there were only 47 MS60 cars. Who knows when they disappeared. Remember also, at some point (much later), the X42 Mail Storage cars were built. By the way, there are tons of X25 Box Express cars in various number series. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:27:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR GP7's -- What Phase? From: Jerry @ Pennsy Atlas has announced a new run of GP7's (N scale). No PRR, but undecs are available with or without dynamic brakes. The Withers book indicates assignments for road numbers and which units had dynamics and trainphones, so I can match up correct undecs with road numbers for role desired. Atlas calls the GP7's "Phase I". Were the PRR units Phase I? How many GP7 phases were there? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Hagley PRR conference Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:39:05 -0400 The Pennsylvania Railroad records have been the source for many significant publications relating to the history of American railroads, and our nation. This conference will allow writers who have worked in these materials to share their experiences with each other and an audience interested in the history and influence of the "Standard Railroad of the World." It is being held in conjunction with a major exhibition at Hagley, "Machine, Monument, and Metropolis: New York's Pennsylvania Station." Conference sessions will take place in Hagley's Soda House, accessible through the library entrance on Route 100 and Buck Road. The afternoon reception will be at Hagley's Henry Clay Mill, where the exhibition is on display. Registration for the conference is $25 and includes morning coffee, lunch, the afternoon reception, and admission into the exhibition. Deadline for registration is December 2. Please contact Carol Ressler Lockman at 302-658-2400, ext 243, or email crl@udel.edu for more information. Lodging is available at the Best Western Brandywine Inn at the corner of Routes 141 and 202 for $89/night (mention Hagley conference to receive this rate), call 800-537-7772 to reserve rooms. A complimentary shuttle will be available between the hotel and Hagley during the conference. With advance notice the hotel will pick up and drop off guests at Wilmington's AMTRAK station. The nearest airport is in Philadelphia, for shuttle service to the hotel we recommend the Delaware Express Shuttle, 800-648-5466. For driving instructions to see our web site > =============================================================== The Pennsylvania Railroad and its archives: Their history and legacy Friday December 5, 2003, Hagley Museum and Library Soda House 8:30-9:00 coffee 9-10:30 Keynote session Chair Terry Snyder, Hagley Museum and Library Speakers: Chris Baer, Hagley Museum and Library, "Salvaging History: Preserving the Pennsylvania Railroad Records" Dan Cupper, journalist and author, "From the Tracks to the Stacks.and Back: Adventures in Researching Rockville Bridge and other Pennsylvania Railroad Topics" 10:30-11:00 break 11:00-1:00 Understanding the Pennsylvania Railroad and its People Chair Al Churella (Southern Polytechnic State University) Panelists: Mark Reutter (editor, Railroad History), Janet Davidson (National Museum of American History), Steve Usselman (Georgia Institute of Technology), H. Roger Grant (Clemson University), Daniel Levinson Wilk (Duke University) 1:00-2:00 lunch 2:00-3:30 Researching the Pennsylvania Railroad's Trains, Stations and Passengers Chair Charles Blardone, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society Editor The Keystone Magazine Panelists: Mark Aldrich (Smith College), Laura Milsk (Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville), Amy Richter (Clark University) 3:30-5 Reception and Tour of Pennsylvania Station Exhibition, "Machine, Monument, & Metropolis" (Henry Clay Mill) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy S Models X29 Update Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:00:30 -0400 Hi All, It has been a long time since I have posted an update on the Pennsy S Models S Scale brass X29 project. www.pennsysmodel.com I received a new pilot model from my builder today. I am happy to say that it is VERY GOOD! I hate to give delivery dates because we have missed every one of them. However, I can honestly see us finally going into production with the REA version this year. I have never said that before. The freight versions will follow next year. I will take some photos and post when we have the website updated. We would like to thank all of our customers for their continued patience. Thank You Bill Lane and Dan Mastrobuono Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Head-end cars Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:09:24 -0400 With all the talk of the B-60's going on, it got me thinking about modeling this car to go with the Walther's R-50B's that I have. Seeing the price of brass on the internet, I was shocked. I looked through the list archives and noticed discussions on Eastern Car Works B-60 baggage cars and M-70B RPO cars. Has anyone had any RECENT dealings with these cars? There were problems in the past with the trucks. I was wanting to know if the problem still exists and what is the general feeling of these cars compared to the Walther's R-50B. Are there any plans for any other manufacturers to make these cars in the near future? Mark _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:34:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Head-end cars From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 07:09 PM, Mark Taylor wrote: > With all the talk of the B-60's going on, it got me thinking about > modeling this car to go with the Walther's R-50B's that I have. > Seeing the price of brass on the internet, I was shocked. I looked > through the list archives and noticed discussions on Eastern Car Works > B-60 baggage cars and M-70B RPO cars. Has anyone had any RECENT > dealings with these cars? There were problems in the past with the > trucks. I was wanting to know if the problem still exists and what is > the general feeling of these cars compared to the Walther's R-50B. > Are there any plans for any other manufacturers to make these cars in > the near future? You mean, are there plans for a ready-to-run B60b of the likes of the R50b? Or maybe even the forthcoming Centralia Car Works P85b via InterMountain? Hmmm, can't say! ;-) (But you may want to set some money aside just in case!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Head-end cars Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:38:14 -0500 Hi Mark The experience I have with ECW is that their stuff is showing up in swaps all the time. Replace the trucks with brass ones if you can. The ECW plastic is prone to warp. But can be straightened with brass bar stock. They do make a nice car. Lot's of work. I don't have the baggage car, I have P70's and a 4-4-2, Imperial series. Mark's question: " I looked through the list archives and noticed discussions on Eastern Car Works B-60 baggage cars and M-70B RPO cars. Has anyone had any RECENT dealings with these cars? There were problems in the past with the trucks. I was wanting to know if the problem still exists and what is the general feeling of these cars compared to the Walther's R-50B. Are there any plans for any other manufacturers to make these cars in the near future? Mark" So, the trucks with the kits are still crummy. They can be used with better wheels if that's all you can get, or the correct brass ones are not available. All IMHO. Others join in. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:40:53 -0400 From: Phil Balles Subject: Re: [PRR] Head-end cars Mark At Timonium a few weeks ago I spoke with the Bethlehem Car Works guy - he said he was going to offer an RTR version of the B60 in both baggage and messange car service, with two types of door windows (both square and round). Sounds like it's gonna have brass car sides. I tried to get more details, but he was busy. Price in the $60.00 range. First runs probably by the January Timonium show. I just bought the M70 from him, but haven't assembled it yet - parts don't look warped or anything. I just finished building up the ECW B60 - the roof came warped in the box, so I replaced it (and the trucks) with BCW parts. BTW if anyone has a good way of building up the ECW trucks, I'd sure like to hear it.... Regards Phil Balles Mark Taylor wrote: > With all the talk of the B-60's going on, it got me thinking about > modeling this car to go with the Walther's R-50B's that I have. > Seeing the price of brass on the internet, I was shocked. I looked > through the list archives and noticed discussions on Eastern Car Works > B-60 baggage cars and M-70B RPO cars. Has anyone had any RECENT > dealings with these cars? There were problems in the past with the > trucks. I was wanting to know if the problem still exists and what is > the general feeling of these cars compared to the Walther's R-50B. > Are there any plans for any other manufacturers to make these cars in > the near future? Mark > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet > Service. Try it FREE for one month! > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Head-end cars On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > You mean, are there plans for a ready-to-run B60b of the likes of the > R50b? Or maybe even the forthcoming Centralia Car Works P85b via > InterMountain? Intermountain is doing the Des Plaines Hobbies P85b, right? Who is CCW? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:55:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Head-end cars From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 07:40 PM, Phil Balles wrote: > At Timonium a few weeks ago I spoke with the Bethlehem Car Works guy - > he said he was going to offer an RTR version of the B60 in both > baggage and messange car service, with two types of door windows (both > square and round). Sounds like it's gonna have brass car sides. I > tried to get more details, but he was busy. Price in the $60.00 range. > First runs probably by the January Timonium show. If he's talking about it publicly, so be it...yes, BCW B60b kits are currently overseas being built-up via InterMountain. IM has already done BCW coaches and combines in Reading, B&O, CNJ, and B&M and they have looked excellent! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:04:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Head-end cars From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 07:53 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > >> You mean, are there plans for a ready-to-run B60b of the likes of the >> R50b? Or maybe even the forthcoming Centralia Car Works P85b via >> InterMountain? > > Intermountain is doing the Des Plaines Hobbies P85b, right? Who is CCW? Sorry, CCS...Centralia Car Shops. It's a division of Des Plaines Hobbies. They prefer the CCS name be "attached" to their built-up models. They even use it on their own web site. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:26:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] GP7's in 1954 From: Jerry @ Pennsy Looking at the use of GP7's in 1954. Looking at Withers Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 8, it looks like the GP7's were primarily used on branch lines and locals, not main line running as many of the later GP9's were used. There were a bunch up the Northern Division, but that doesn't help me for modeling. Only one on the Philadelphia Division. A few on the Middle Division. I am focusing on the Pittsburgh Division, which had several. For those in the know, do you recall how these units were used? Road numbers were 8503, 8504, 8505, 8506, and 8507. I've seen photos of single units used here and there as helpers, in addition to what appear to be locals. They are also reported to work "the branches". Anyone recall them working coal out of Cresson? (Already know of FM H 16-44's doing that.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP7's Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:31:21 -0400 Before I even begin to count rivets and louvers, will those Atlas N scale GP7's be DCC friendly??? I have a small fleet of those early models with the trucks too close. boB Susquehanna Div. N scale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 5:27 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR GP7's -- What Phase? > Atlas has announced a new run of GP7's (N scale). No PRR, but undecs > are available with or without dynamic brakes. > > The Withers book indicates assignments for road numbers and which units > had dynamics and trainphones, so I can match up correct undecs with > road numbers for role desired. > > Atlas calls the GP7's "Phase I". Were the PRR units Phase I? How many > GP7 phases were there? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:37:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP7's From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 08:31 PM, Bob McKay wrote: > Before I even begin to count rivets and louvers, will those Atlas N > scale > GP7's be DCC friendly??? I have a small fleet of those early models > with > the trucks too close. Are they offering a DCC version?No. Will they come with DCC-friendly plugs? No. Will require a milled frame (I assume) and a very small (Lenz) decoder. What's the issue with the trucks on the early models? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:15:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] FOM Decals --part1_e4.3fe42ccf.2ccb2899_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As there seems to be a high interest in these decals and if the individual that produced them is still around and interested, would a pre-paid rerun of these be a worthwhile project? With the current supply of cars that would fit or be converted to PRR cars used in the FOM project this seems like a plausible project. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_e4.3fe42ccf.2ccb2899_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   As there seems to be a high interest in these d= ecals and if the individual that produced them is still around and intereste= d,  would a pre-paid rerun of these be a worthwhile project?  With= the current supply of cars that would fit or be converted to PRR cars used=20= in the FOM project this seems like a plausible project.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_e4.3fe42ccf.2ccb2899_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] FOM Decals Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:34:58 -0400 As originally distributed, both the Pennsy Retail Research (PRR) and the Middle Division (MD) FOM decals were cut in half and had to be spliced together in the middle of the car side. The PRR decals were done for PRR by Accucals and were limited by the production equipment. The MD decals were limited by the packaging. When these were release, MD provided us with these decals unpackaged and uncut. There was one decal for the gold stripes and one decal for the Red. Each was long enough to do a smooth side passenger car. The lettering was on a separate sheet. Unfortunatly, they are long gone. I have done a smooth side car with the PRR decals. The splice was almost (and almost is the key word here) invisible when the joint was butted together. The joint was VERY noticable when the splice was overlapped. If MD were to rerun the decals, the bulk, unpackaged FOM decals would be the way to go...if they were again made available. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:07:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - F38 From: beth capl caples Has any one assembled the Eastern Car Works F38 flat car in HO scale? I built one and have tried to fine tune it. I can't figure out why it won't track right! I can't keep it from derailing. My minimum track radius is 30". Any suggestions appreciated, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP7's Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:21:03 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 24 Oct, "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > Will require a milled frame (I assume) and a very small (Lenz) decoder. Aztec to the rescue! > What's the issue with the trucks on the early models? Atlas used an RS-1 or -3 chassis they already had, so the trucks were too close together; I think that the shells were OK. N Scale of Nevada made a replacement frame (his first product!) that moved the trucks to the right place. I've converted one of mine (painted the fuel tank with magic marker!), and still have the retro-frame kits for the others. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:27:19 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: Maine potato service to Phila. [PRR] At 01:26 PM 10/22/2003, Jerry Britton wrote: >On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 01:07 PM, Doug Drew wrote: > >> BAR also used a lot of white MDT refrigerator cars in potato service, >> but by >> Jerry's point in time of 1954 I think the BAR was using its own cars >> in the >> red white and blue scheme. > >I kinda like those white MDT cars! Have a couple. Maybe I'll slip one or two into a string of the BAR cars! This month's Micro-Trains BAR reefer would also fit the traffic and era. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP7's in 1954 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:31:28 -0400 Jerry, As of September 1954, #8503-8507, class ES15m, equipped with mu, speed control and dynamic brakes were assigned to the Pittsburgh Division, as East Slope Passenger helpers. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry @ Pennsy To: PRR-talk Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: [PRR] GP7's in 1954 > Looking at the use of GP7's in 1954. > > Looking at Withers Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 8, it looks like > the GP7's were primarily used on branch lines and locals, not main line > running as many of the later GP9's were used. > > There were a bunch up the Northern Division, but that doesn't help me > for modeling. Only one on the Philadelphia Division. A few on the > Middle Division. > > I am focusing on the Pittsburgh Division, which had several. For those > in the know, do you recall how these units were used? Road numbers were > 8503, 8504, 8505, 8506, and 8507. > > I've seen photos of single units used here and there as helpers, in > addition to what appear to be locals. They are also reported to work > "the branches". Anyone recall them working coal out of Cresson? > (Already know of FM H 16-44's doing that.) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Device on K4's lead truck. Hello List.... I've notice something on the lead wheel (engineer's side) of certain K4s operating in the Jersey City-Bay Head area. I thought maybe it has something to do with the cab signals but I can't find any info on this device. I've found photos of this device on K4s: 646,830,5412,5406,5417,3747,5367,3880, and famous 1361. There is a very good photo of K4 #3747 in the original soft cover book "Pennsy,A to T" on page 69. Also plenty of pics in "I remember Pennsy", that shows the K4s of that group with the device. When 1361 was put on display at Horseshoe, the device on the wheel was removed. So my question is: what is that thing? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP7's -- What Phase? Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:56:13 -0500 Jerry asked-- > > Atlas calls the GP7's "Phase I". Were the PRR units Phase I? How many > GP7 phases were there? > For all practical modeling purposes, PRR had GP7's from Phase I and Phase II. The Phase I engines were 8797 to 8806; all the rest were Phase II. The most visible spotting feature to use to differentiate between the phases was the number of inspection slots in the frame skirt above the fuel tank. As built the Phase I engines had one slot; Phase II had four slots. All slots were the same size except on Phase II engines equipped with steam generators, requiring one slot to be shorter to allow for the water tank filler. All of the PRR Phase I engines were without dynamic brakes; in Phase II some did, others didn't. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP7's in 1954 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:00:34 -0500 Jerry--The M.P. 229 for 3/1/54 also lists 8802 and 8803 assigned to the Pittsburgh Division. These were Phase I engines (without dynamic brakes). Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:04:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C39A8B.84B9B300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, No, you are correct. All the PRR GP9B units were equipped with hostler = control - a very simplified set of controls that would allow the hostler = in an engine terminal to move the unit around under its own power. The = controls were located in the area where the cab used to be along the = left side (long hood forward was front). The porthole window on that = side opened inward and allowed the hostler to stick his head out the = window to see where he was going. Of course this arrangement was = intended for only short excursions. =20 Jack Consoli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: jconsoli=20 Cc: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers I also seem to remember reading (at different times) that the first = generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F units, and further that = the booster F units had a provision so that they could be moved without = being MUed to a cab unit. =20 I'm probably all wrong on that last point, though. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C39A8B.84B9B300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 
No, you are correct. All the PRR = GP9B units=20 were equipped with hostler control - a very simplified set of controls = that=20 would allow the hostler in an engine terminal to move the unit around = under its=20 own power. The controls were located in the area where the cab used to = be along=20 the left side (long hood forward was front). The porthole window on that = side=20 opened inward and allowed the hostler to stick his head out the window = to see=20 where he was going. Of course this arrangement was intended for = only short=20 excursions.   
 
Jack Consoli
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
To: jconsoli=20
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 = 12:32=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m = Questions/Answers

 
I also seem to remember reading (at different = times)=20 that the first generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F units, = and=20 further that the booster F units had a provision so that they could be = moved=20 without being MUed to a cab unit.
 
I'm probably all wrong on that last point,=20 though.
 
------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C39A8B.84B9B300-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 4-4-2 in FOM Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:08:04 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C39A94.7159E560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walthers finally posted a picture of the Pullman 4-4-2 in Fleet of = Modernism colors. I have not had a chance to compare it to prototype photos yet so = can not comment on accuracy. The car comes with full skirts. The car = should be available in mid-November. Let's hope it sells well so the Pullman 10-5 will also be done in FOM colors. Here's the link to the picture: =20 https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16704 =20 Rick ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C39A94.7159E560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Walthers finally posted a picture of the = Pullman 4-4-2 in Fleet of Modernism colors. I have not had a chance to compare it to prototype = photos yet so can not comment on accuracy.  The car comes with full = skirts.  The car should be available in mid-November.  Let’s hope it sells = well so the Pullman 10-5 will also be done in = FOM colors.  Here’s the link to the picture:

 

https://www.= walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16704

 

Rick

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C39A94.7159E560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:57:36 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] model F38 tracking solution I had a friend assemble one for me and I found that the trucks were very poor. I took one of those new "reamer" tools that Micromark sells to them and replaced the wheel sets with Proto 2K, not it runs MUCH better. In other words, make sure the wheelsets are free-rolling in the trucks. I also have 30" min. radius, so I know it can work. I also put a load on it with some added weight that helped. Jeff Warner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Device on K4's lead truck. Dave I am assuming this is the Speed Recorder you are referring to? I didn't get a chance to see the pics you mentioned but I remember seeing photos before. Looks like Diesel era Recorders. Not sure what the PRR used on their locos is other instances, they had a speed gauge so speed was calcuated from somewhere. Why they changed to this type, I have no idea...Unless it isn't really a recorder and is something else?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Device on K4's lead truck. Hello List.... I've notice something on the lead wheel (engineer's side) of certain K4s operating in the Jersey City-Bay Head area. I thought maybe it has something to do with the cab signals but I can't find any info on this device. I've found photos of this device on K4s: 646,830,5412,5406,5417,3747,5367,3880, and famous 1361. There is a very good photo of K4 #3747 in the original soft cover book "Pennsy,A to T" on page 69. Also plenty of pics in "I remember Pennsy", that shows the K4s of that group with the device. When 1361 was put on display at Horseshoe, the device on the wheel was removed. So my question is: what is that thing? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Device on K4's lead truck. Dave I am assuming this is the Speed Recorder you are referring to? I didn't get a chance to see the pics you mentioned but I remember seeing photos before. Looks like Diesel era Recorders. Not sure what the PRR used on their locos is other instances, they had a speed gauge so speed was calcuated from somewhere. Why they changed to this type, I have no idea...Unless it isn't really a recorder and is something else?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:45:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Device on K4's lead truck. --part1_173.21176022.2ccbd85d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is just a guess...could it be connected to the tool-box looking device on the running board? The few photos I looked at have both the box and the device on the xle; locos without the axle device lack the box. I think it is either Automatic Train Stop or Automatic Train Control equipment. --part1_173.21176022.2ccbd85d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is just a guess...could it be connected to the to= ol-box looking device on the running board?  The few photos I looked at= have both the box and the device on the xle; locos without the axle device=20= lack the box.  I think it is either Automatic Train Stop or Automatic T= rain Control equipment.  --part1_173.21176022.2ccbd85d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Head-end cars thanks Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:01:48 -0400 I'd like to thank everyone who commented on my post about the head-end cars. Looks like the ECW cars are a good stand in except for the truck problems (still). With BCW coming out with a RTR B60 model that equals or betters Walthers R50b, that looks to me where I will spend my money. I will be saving my money Jerry, do you think advanced reservations would be advised. Mark _________________________________________________________________ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account has exceeded its 2MB storage limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:07:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FOM Decals --part1_16e.2579f815.2ccc7867_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for this info.. I would be interested in the Middle Div. product from all of the positive comments about their work. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_16e.2579f815.2ccc7867_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for this info..  I would be interested in=20= the Middle Div. product from all of the positive comments about their work.<= BR>

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_16e.2579f815.2ccc7867_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:16:51 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Bethelhem Car works PRR 2DP5 truck Hello list, Bethlehem Car Works has a picture on their web site of a PRR 2DP5 truck with roller bearings. http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/ BCW's stock number is 127, and the trucks cost $11.95 per pair. BCW supplies Intermountain ball bearing wheelsets to reduce the wear on the soft metal sideframes (I have several other BCW soft metal trucks and am familiar with their construction). I just ordered two pair for durability trials to see if they'll be better than my sometimes-troublesome Eastern Car Works 2DP5 trucks. We'll see if they're an improvement after I get some running time with them. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:47:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Device on K4's lead truck. I think you might be referring to a train stop device that was in use in NJ to protect drawbridges etc and was also on Mu's Boomer ----- Original Message ----- From: mittner@webtv.net To: zootowerprr@webtv.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 8:57 AM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Device on K4's lead truck. Dave I am assuming this is the Speed Recorder you are referring to? I didn't get a chance to see the pics you mentioned but I remember seeing photos before. Looks like Diesel era Recorders. Not sure what the PRR used on their locos is other instances, they had a speed gauge so speed was calcuated from somewhere. Why they changed to this type, I have no idea...Unless it isn't really a recorder and is something else?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:14:53 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 4-4-2 in FOM --------------010305060203050104060407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would I have seen this car (Pullman 4-4-2) in the FOM paint scheme during the years say 1945 thru 1948? Would any trains that travelled through Baltimore have included this car in its consist during that period? And if so what trains? Ken Meyer Rick Siller wrote: > Walthers finally posted a picture of the Pullman 4-4-2 in Fleet of > Modernism colors. I have not had a chance to compare it to prototype > photos yet so can not comment on accuracy. The car comes with full > skirts. The car should be available in mid-November. Let's hope it > sells well so the Pullman 10-5 will also be done in FOM colors. > Here's the link to the picture: > > > > https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16704 > > > > Rick > --------------010305060203050104060407 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Would I have seen this car (Pullman 4-4-2) in the FOM paint scheme during the years say 1945 thru 1948?
Would any trains that travelled through Baltimore have included this car in its consist during that period? And if so what trains?
Ken Meyer

Rick Siller wrote:

Walthers finally posted a picture of the Pullman 4-4-2 in Fleet of Modernism colors. I have not had a chance to compare it to prototype photos yet so can not comment on accuracy.  The car comes with full skirts.  The car should be available in mid-November.  Let’s hope it sells well so the Pullman 10-5 will also be done in FOM colors.  Here’s the link to the picture:

 

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16704

 

Rick


--------------010305060203050104060407-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robertke@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/27/03: Walthers 4-4-2 in FOM Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:49:18 +0000 I can recall seeing a few FOM cars go through Penn Station, Newark, NJ for several years after the 1948 gold leaf stripe on tuscan red paint scheme came into use. I would venture to say that a few FOM cars were still around as late as 1952. Bob Kessler > PRR-Talk Digest - Monday, October 27, 2003 > > Bethelhem Car works PRR 2DP5 truck > by "Doug Kisala" > Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 4-4-2 in FOM > by "Ken Meyer" > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Bethelhem Car works PRR 2DP5 truck > From: "Doug Kisala" > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:16:51 -0800 (PST) > > Hello list, > > Bethlehem Car Works has a picture on their web site of > a PRR 2DP5 truck with roller bearings. > > http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/ > > BCW's stock number is 127, and the trucks cost $11.95 > per pair. BCW supplies Intermountain ball bearing > wheelsets to reduce the wear on the soft metal > sideframes (I have several other BCW soft metal trucks > and am familiar with their construction). > > I just ordered two pair for durability trials to see > if they'll be better than my sometimes-troublesome > Eastern Car Works 2DP5 trucks. We'll see if they're > an improvement after I get some running time with > them. > > Doug > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 4-4-2 in FOM > From: "Ken Meyer" > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:14:53 -0400 > > > --------------010305060203050104060407 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Would I have seen this car (Pullman 4-4-2) in the FOM paint scheme > during the years say 1945 thru 1948? > Would any trains that travelled through Baltimore have included this car > in its consist during that period? And if so what trains? > Ken Meyer > > Rick Siller wrote: > > > Walthers finally posted a picture of the Pullman 4-4-2 in Fleet of > > Modernism colors. I have not had a chance to compare it to prototype > > photos yet so can not comment on accuracy. The car comes with full > > skirts. The car should be available in mid-November. Let's hope it > > sells well so the Pullman 10-5 will also be done in FOM colors. > > Here's the link to the picture: > > > > > > > > https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16704 > > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > --------------010305060203050104060407 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > > >
Would I have seen this > car (Pullman 4-4-2) in the FOM paint scheme during the years say 1945 thru > 1948?
> Would any trains that travelled through Baltimore have included this car > in its consist during that period? And if so what trains?
> Ken Meyer
>
> Rick Siller wrote:
> >
cite="mid000201c39ab5$f86b8560$6401a8c0@Dell8250"> >
>

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Walthers finally posted a picture > of the style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Pullman size="2" face="Arial"> style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> size="2" face="Arial"> style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">4-4-2 size="2" face="Arial"> style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> in Fleet of Modernism colors. > I have not had a chance to compare it to prototype photos yet so can not comment > on accuracy.  The car comes with full skirts.  The car should be > available > in mid-November.  Let’s hope it sells well so the size="2" face="Arial"> style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Pullman size="2" face="Arial"> style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> 10-5 will also be done in FOM > colors.  Here’s the link to the picture:

> >

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> 

> >

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> > href="https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16704">https://www.walthers. > com/exec/productinfo/932-16704

> >

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> 

> >

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Rick

>
>
>
>
> > > > --------------010305060203050104060407-- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > End of PRR-Talk Digest > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:49:34 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] ECW trucks (was: Head-end cars) Phil Balles wrote: (in part) > . . . > BTW if anyone has a good way of building up the ECW trucks, I'd sure > like to hear it.... > > Regards > Phil Balles > > ======================================================= AFAIK there are three problems with the ECW trucks. First, the side frames are prototypically thin. The problem is the prototype uses steel, while ECW uses plastic, so the sideframes can splay out under the load of a properly weighted car and the axles can actually be pushed up out of the journals!. I solve this by gluing a heavy plastic plate to the back of the equalizers at the bottom to prevent them from separating. I drill a large hole in the middle of this plate for screwdriver access to the mounting screws. Second, the sideframes are styrene and don't wear well. When ECW truck wear out I usually replace the trucks since I have so many spares from kits I have built. But another solution which I will try some day is to insert delrin bearings. These available form several source including Tichy. The last problem only affects the PRR 2D-P5 AFAIK. In each pair of trucks (8 journals), one of the journals is cast high causing the sideframe to drag on the track! I suppose that I could redrill the hole and insert the delrin journal inserts I mentioned in problem two, But I usually just discard the offending sideframe and acknowledge that out of every 4 pairs of truck, only three pairs will be usable (for limited values of "useable). Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Express X-29 paint schemes Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:52:24 +0000 Jeff Smith asked: Please excuse me if this topic was just recently discussed. I am new to the list and would like to know if the paint schemes on the X-29 express cars were different than the freight cars. Where there any special markings? I realize that some had Railway Express Agency on them. They are obviously express cars. Date- 1950's Here's a photo of a restored car at the Valley Railroad Museum in Connecticut showing some of the express modifications, including marker light brackets and additional grabs and sill step: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=http://www.rr- fallenflags.org/prr/prr-xm-9495.jpg&fr=clX29 Ben Hom NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES! Don't believe me? See No. 146, "Classification of Cars" http://prr.railfan.net/documents/pdf/Circulars/146-G_300mono.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] state of maine car, PA potato traffic Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:02:44 -0500 > wrote > Hi everyone, is there a picture/ scannable copy of the "SOM" boxcar with > the NH script herald? It may be a stretch, but one or several of these > could have made it to the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. Any help would be > appreciated. Thanks Jim > Jim, have you tried the New Haven RR historical society site? http://www.nhrhta.org/ There's a lot of content there hidden under various "Odds and Ends" links in the New Haven imagery pages, there may be one there. >From the sound of other posts on PRR-talk, the New Haven tended to keep their cars running between Maine and Gotham, but no reason for one NOT to be diverted to the Iron City if you so choose. These things happened... Just to keep this thread PRR-related, here's a cross-post from the Yahoo B&M list, from Roger Hinman: "quoting a table from the Angiers book on BAR, of the 46856 cars of potatoes shipped in the 49-50 season, 4418 went to Pennsylvania running third behind New York and Massachusetts. Roger H." so, a bit less than one in 10 carloads of Aroostook spuds went to the Keystone state. More than enough reason to run those red white and blue cars on selected PRR freight trains. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:12:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C39C8C.0330F340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the EMD B units had the same arrangement. -----Original Message----- From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 12:04 AM To: Zak Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers Zak, No, you are correct. All the PRR GP9B units were equipped with hostler control - a very simplified set of controls that would allow the hostler in an engine terminal to move the unit around under its own power. The controls were located in the area where the cab used to be along the left side (long hood forward was front). The porthole window on that side opened inward and allowed the hostler to stick his head out the window to see where he was going. Of course this arrangement was intended for only short excursions. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Zak To: jconsoli Cc: PRR Talk Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Class EFS17m Questions/Answers I also seem to remember reading (at different times) that the first generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F units, and further that the booster F units had a provision so that they could be moved without being MUed to a cab unit. I'm probably all wrong on that last point, though. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C39C8C.0330F340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
All=20 the EMD B units had the same arrangement.
-----Original Message-----
From: = jconsoli=20 [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 25, = 2003=20 12:04 AM
To: Zak
Cc: PRR Talk
Subject: = Re: [PRR]=20 Class EFS17m Questions/Answers

Zak,
 
No, you are correct. All the PRR = GP9B units=20 were equipped with hostler control - a very simplified set of controls = that=20 would allow the hostler in an engine terminal to move the unit around = under=20 its own power. The controls were located in the area where the cab = used to be=20 along the left side (long hood forward was front). The porthole window = on that=20 side opened inward and allowed the hostler to stick his head out the = window to=20 see where he was going. Of course this arrangement was = intended for only=20 short excursions.   
 
Jack Consoli
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Friday, October 24, = 2003 12:32=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Class = EFS17m=20 Questions/Answers

 
I also seem to remember reading (at = different times)=20 that the first generation EMD Geeps were basically remodeled F = units, and=20 further that the booster F units had a provision so that they could = be moved=20 without being MUed to a cab unit.
 
I'm probably all wrong on that last point,=20 though.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C39C8C.0330F340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:03:56 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/27/03: Walthers 4-4-2 in FOM robertke@comcast.net writes: > I can recall seeing a few FOM cars go through Penn Station, Newark, NJ for several years after the 1948 gold leaf stripe on tuscan red paint scheme came into use. I would venture to say that a few FOM cars were still around as late as 1952. Robert and all, THERE IS photo evidence to support this. Yes, some cars were not repainted until the early 50's from this paint scheme. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:48:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges --part1_21.36780c9b.2ccf24f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know of any commercial casting for the brackets that held the=20 antenna on PRR sleeper/lounge cars?=A0 I am doing a "Colonial" series car fr= om=20 Laser Horizons and I would like to have the correct roof casting, if possibl= e.=A0 I=20 believe that there were 25 castings for the antenna (at least this is what i= s=20 on my Challenger Models "Falls" series Sleeper/Lounge) Thanks, Rich --part1_21.36780c9b.2ccf24f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know of any commercial casting for the bra= ckets that held the antenna on PRR sleeper/lounge cars?=A0 I am doing a "Col= onial" series car from Laser Horizons and I would like to have the correct r= oof casting, if possible.=A0 I believe that there were 25 castings for the a= ntenna (at least this is what is on my Challenger Models "Falls" series Slee= per/Lounge)

Thanks,

Rich
 --part1_21.36780c9b.2ccf24f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Passenger Consist Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:32:19 -0500

I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This consist would not have to be an exact match of a particular consist, but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or IHC.  I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from the different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be seen in same consist together.
Thanks,
Eric
 
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:57:18 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] TLC's PRR Passenger Train Consists book is ready According to Dr. Harry Stegmaier, author of TLC's _Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains: Consists and Cars, 1952, Vol. I, East-West Trains_, 138 pp. + intro., the book is rolling off the press and will start shipping this week. Unless there is a glitch in air freight, Tom Dixon will have copies for sale at the Gaithersburg Railroadiana show this coming weekend (1 - 2 Nov. 2003). Dealers should begin receiving their copies via ground freight by mid-November. Dr. Stegmaier will also have copies for sale at his table at the Columbus, OH railroadiana show, 12 - 13 December 2003. He does not know the shelf price at this time, but estimates it will be in the $40.00 range, since it contains nearly all color photos. The author's price is usually somewhat below retail, and he writes a personal inscription and autograph to those who buy from him at shows. The book is essentially a fully illustrated consist book for PRR passenger trains in NY/Phila - Chi/St. Louis service with notations on exceptions, substitutions, etc. The text comes directly from the authors collection of PRR passenger train consist books. From what I understood Dr. Stegmaier to say, all trains except locals are covered (he used the terms major, intermediate, and mail to describe the types of trains covered). Trains serving Detroit and Cleveland are also covered. According to Dr. Stegmaier, examples of every piece of equipment are included, and the photos are mostly color, with some black and white. He emphasized that photos of foreign equipment operated in PRR passenger trains are all in color. Paradoxically for a mostly-color book, he and the publisher decided on a b/w cover photo because it was the only image they had available that showed Shark's on the Manhattan Ltd. ... I guess that was a significant event, or they just really like the lines of the passenger sharks. Stegmaier and Dixon hope to produce a second volume covering the NY/Wash. corridor and other PRR lines that ran _major_ passemger trains, but there are no formal plans yet in the works. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:35:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Passenger Consist From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 09:32 PM, Eric Lauterbach wrote: > I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am=20 > trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy=20= > passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I=20= > already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This=20 > consist would not have to be an exact match=A0of a particular consist,=20= > but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars=20 > would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or=20 > IHC.=A0 I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from = the=20 > different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be=20 > seen in same consist together. You might consider a Red Caboose X29 in "Railway Express Agency"=20 scheme. The kits were just rerun and the ready-to-run cars are due next=20= month. I'd also plan on one or two of the Bethlehem Car Works B60b's (via=20 InterMountain) when they come out next year in ready-to-run. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:38:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TLC's PRR Passenger Train Consists book is ready From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 10:57 PM, Vagel C. Keller, Jr. wrote: > According to Dr. Harry Stegmaier, author of > > TLC's _Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains: Consists and Cars, > 1952, Vol. I, East-West Trains_, 138 pp. + intro., Good news. I had previously passed on TLC's "latest" estimate, which was November 8 to dealers. Sounds like they'll be right on time! RELATED: My shipment of "Triumph VI" will arrive late today, personally delivered. So another one is out! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:42:05 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Passenger Consist --0-225250504-1067344925=:92807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eric- according to the Welsh book Pennsy Streamliners, the 4-4-2 Imperial and 10-5 Cascade sleepers (both recently by Walthers) were in "blue ribbon" consists in your time period, but with diesels or GG1 power Eric Lauterbach wrote: I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This consist would not have to be an exact match of a particular consist, but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or IHC. I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from the different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be seen in same consist together. Thanks, Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears --0-225250504-1067344925=:92807 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Eric- according to the Welsh book Pennsy Streamliners, the 4-4-2 Imperial and 10-5 Cascade sleepers (both recently by Walthers) were in "blue ribbon" consists in your time period, but with diesels or GG1 power

Eric Lauterbach <ealauterbach@earthlink.net> wrote:

I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This consist would not have to be an exact match of a particular consist, but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or IHC.  I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from the different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be seen in same consist together.
Thanks,
Eric
 
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears --0-225250504-1067344925=:92807-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:01:24 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] N2's on Cincinnati Div. but not Conemaugh In a message dated 10/27/03 3:56:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:49:01 -0500 > From: Fred Reed > Subject: Engine 3768 Question > > Hi List - > > From PRR Conemaugh Division ETT # 10 dated Sept. 26 1948: > > "3111. N2 engines and streamlined K-4-S Engine 3768 will not be operated on > this Division without authority from the superintendent." > > Does anyone know of curve radius or clearance problems? Was the 3768 banned > from other divisions too? She was certainly singled out by the Conemaugh > Division, Does anyone know if the 3768 ever ran on the West Penn Main Line > or the AVRR to Oil City, the domain of the G5's, and caused specific > headaches to be so specifically banned from service? > > Appreciate your answers! > > Fred Reed > PRR TH&S 5739 > Rules like this usually mean it happened once, and something didn't work right. #3111 interests me because I'm still writing captions on N2sa pix for the Cincinnati article -- these USRA engines were somewhat LIGHTER on each axle than an N1, so I wonder why they were restricted. We normally think of USRA engines as being a "universal" design, so you don't usually think they'll be restricted because of clearance concerns. I wonder if N1's were already restricted here via the standard classified tables included with every ETT, and then it was found that N2's (a nonstandard design, at least in a Conemaugh Div ETT) had too long a wheelbase and generated derailments on some curves? Are the N1's in fact restricted in this TT#10? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:57:48 -0600 Subject: RE::[PRR] HO Scale Passenger Consist From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-2-995439457 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 08:32 PM, Eric Lauterbach wrote: > I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am =20= > trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy =20= > passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I = =20 > already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This =20= > consist would not have to be an exact match=A0of a particular consist, = =20 > but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars =20 > would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or =20 > IHC.=A0 I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from = the =20 > different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be =20 > seen in same consist together. Eric, First of all, while you may want to do a generic train, you need to =20 decide what kind of "generic" train you want! Do you want something =20 like the Dusquene? All head end and a few coaches? This would be very =20= appropriate for steam circa 1955...Or are you interested in modeling an =20= accommodation train? Or an all coach train? A post war streamliner =20= Remember that for any given number of passenger, you need eats, so a =20 diner may be the critical issue. Also, during your time frame, many of =20= the new postwar cars were built for consists and kept together. For heavyweight Pullmans, wait for the Branchline cars - I've seen the =20= latest test shots on the web and WOW! The 8-1-2 (Cent...series) and =20 10-1-2 (Lake series) will be available in PRR. However, for your time =20= period, you want to PULLMAN lettered cars (you'll need to check the =20 database for color and probably have PULLMAN lettered Tuscan cars). In =20= addition, the 12-1 will be coming soon and would be appropriate too =20 (one of each would work ) One source you should consider for "modernized" pre-war equipment is =20 NKP (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) Modernized Diner- Low Arch Roof - Close out Special P78-D,F $20.00 Modernized Diner- Clerestory Roof - Close out Special P78-D,DD =20 $20.00 P70GS Modernized Coach $54.95 P70KR Modernized Coach $54.95 PB70D-Modernized Combine $54.95 Also, don't forget the ECW P70FBR, which is appropriate for most of =20 your period... So, for a "classic" long distance train...(not a hotshot streamliner =20 but a secondary train) Head end: B60B, X29, R50B, M70B, PB70D Coaches (2 or 3): Modernized P70 (P70FBR, P70GS, P70KR...), P85b... Diner Lounge/parlor Sleepers (Branchline Pullmans) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-2-995439457 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 08:32 PM, Eric Lauterbach wrote: I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This consist would not have to be an exact match=A0of a particular consist, but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or IHC.=A0 I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from the different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be seen in same consist together. Eric,=20 First of all, while you may want to do a generic train, you need to decide what kind of "generic" train you want! Do you want something like the Dusquene? All head end and a few coaches? This would be very appropriate for steam circa 1955...Or are you interested in modeling an accommodation train? Or an all coach train? A post war streamliner Remember that for any given number of passenger, you need eats, so a diner may be the critical issue. Also, during your time frame, many of the new postwar cars were built for consists and kept together. For heavyweight Pullmans, wait for the Branchline cars - I've seen the latest test shots on the web and WOW! The 8-1-2 (Cent...series) and 10-1-2 (Lake series) will be available in PRR. However, for your time period, you want to PULLMAN lettered cars (you'll need to check the database for color and probably have PULLMAN lettered Tuscan cars).=20 In addition, the 12-1 will be coming soon and would be appropriate too (one of each would work <) One source you should consider for "modernized" pre-war equipment is NKP (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) Modernized Diner- Low Arch Roof - FFFF,0000,0000Close out Special P78-D,F $20.00=20 Modernized Diner- Clerestory Roof - FFFF,0000,0000Close out Special P78-D,DD $20.00=20 P70GS Modernized Coach $54.95=20 P70KR Modernized Coach $54.95=20 PB70D-Modernized Combine $54.95 Also, don't forget the ECW P70FBR, which is appropriate for most of your period... So, for a "classic" long distance train...(not a hotshot streamliner but a secondary train) Head end: B60B, X29, R50B, M70B, PB70D Coaches (2 or 3): Modernized P70 (P70FBR, P70GS, P70KR...), P85b... Diner=20 Lounge/parlor Sleepers (Branchline Pullmans) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-2-995439457-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:01:24 EST Subject: [PRR] N2's on Cincinnati Div. but not Conemaugh --part1_65.1ba08cdf.2ccfd0b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/03 3:56:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:49:01 -0500 > From: Fred Reed > Subject: Engine 3768 Question > > Hi List - > > From PRR Conemaugh Division ETT # 10 dated Sept. 26 1948: > > "3111. N2 engines and streamlined K-4-S Engine 3768 will not be operated on > this Division without authority from the superintendent." > > Does anyone know of curve radius or clearance problems? Was the 3768 banned > from other divisions too? She was certainly singled out by the Conemaugh > Division, Does anyone know if the 3768 ever ran on the West Penn Main Line > or the AVRR to Oil City, the domain of the G5's, and caused specific > headaches to be so specifically banned from service? > > Appreciate your answers! > > Fred Reed > PRR TH&S 5739 > Rules like this usually mean it happened once, and something didn't work right. #3111 interests me because I'm still writing captions on N2sa pix for the Cincinnati article -- these USRA engines were somewhat LIGHTER on each axle than an N1, so I wonder why they were restricted. We normally think of USRA engines as being a "universal" design, so you don't usually think they'll be restricted because of clearance concerns. I wonder if N1's were already restricted here via the standard classified tables included with every ETT, and then it was found that N2's (a nonstandard design, at least in a Conemaugh Div ETT) had too long a wheelbase and generated derailments on some curves? Are the N1's in fact restricted in this TT#10? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_65.1ba08cdf.2ccfd0b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/27/03 3:56:46 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:49:01 -0500
   From: Fred Reed <fgr@pennswoods.net>
Subject: Engine 3768 Question

Hi List -

>From PRR Conemaugh Division ETT # 10   dated Sept. 26 1948:

"3111. N2 engines and streamlined K-4-S Engine 3768 will not be operated on<= BR> this Division without authority from the superintendent."

Does anyone know of curve radius or clearance problems? Was the 3768 banned<= BR> from other divisions too? She was certainly singled out by the Conemaugh
Division, Does anyone know if the 3768 ever ran on the West Penn Main Line or the AVRR to Oil City, the domain of the G5's, and caused specific
headaches to be so specifically banned from service?

Appreciate your answers!

Fred Reed
PRR TH&S 5739


Rules like this usually mean it happened once, and something didn't work rig= ht.

#3111 interests me because I'm still writing captions on N2sa pix for the Ci= ncinnati article -- these USRA engines were somewhat LIGHTER on each axle th= an an N1, so I wonder why they were restricted.

We normally think of USRA engines as being a "universal" design, so you don'= t usually think they'll be restricted because of clearance concerns.

I wonder if N1's were already restricted here via the standard classified ta= bles included with every ETT, and then it was found that N2's (a nonstandard= design, at least in a Conemaugh Div ETT) had too long a wheelbase and gener= ated derailments on some curves?  Are the N1's in fact restricted in th= is TT#10?


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_65.1ba08cdf.2ccfd0b4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:39:12 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges These are unique fittings and I don't believe anyone makes them :-(( I have faced the same quandary myself . They were used on all post war mid-train lounges and observation cars. The best stand-in I could muster is the Grant Line Queen posts in the shortest length. It does not have the hollow underneath forming two legs, rather it is a solid upside-down "T" shape", but in HO it looks very good. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= RGortowski@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know of any commercial casting for the brackets that held > the antenna on PRR sleeper/lounge cars? I am doing a "Colonial" > series car from Laser Horizons and I would like to have the correct > roof casting, if possible. I believe that there were 25 castings for > the antenna (at least this is what is on my Challenger Models "Falls" > series Sleeper/Lounge) > > Thanks, > > Rich -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:13:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Triumph VI" - First Look From: Jerry Britton Last night I received my shipment of "Triumph VI", which focuses on the Maryland Division. What follows is a "quick look"...my daughter was marching in a parade last night -- I haven't had time to read any of the text yet. That said, this is definitely not a full review. Like previous volumes, this one is a "must have", due largely to all of the previously unpublished photos it contains. However, like previous volumes, it also leaves something to be desired. Coverage of what is now the Northeast Corridor seems to be pretty decent. There are areas that I am not familiar with, so I don't know what might be missing. However, the Perryville coverage was informative, the Baltimore coverage was pretty decent, and the Washington coverage good. The latter could have been improved, and I did not come across -- unless I missed it -- coverage of the wreck of The Federal into Washington Union Station which should have been a "no brainer". Those modeling Baltimore -- I know Ken Meyer is one -- will find some especially useful shots and drawings that haven't been available anywhere else, including some aerials. The Octoraro Branch -- which was blown off in the Philadelphia volume -- is indeed covered here. Another area where I am not familiar, so I can't say how well it is covered. Drs. Freed and Smith should be fairly pleased with the coverage of the Port Road. There are numerous photos of realignments as the various dams are being built, as well as photos of the dam constructions themselves. In one photo a G is pulling a freight down the line during a flood and the river is up to the level of the rails -- I suspect that would not be a good time to derail! The coverage of the Northern Central is largely a disappointment. The Mt. Vernon loco facility coverage is good, and the stretch in Maryland is decent, though not notable. One above Hanover Junction coverage fades, with a few token pages on York, but nothing to write home about. From there north, only one photo per stop, typically station front shots. The York Haven Line is seriously neglected. Granted, it was Philadelphia Division for most of its life, but it wasn't adequately covered in previous volumes. I am personally peaved at the lack of coverage on the NC as several years ago I had e-mailed Mr. Messer about the availability of some vintage photos and how to acquire them for the Maryland book. Obviously they opted not to. These photos included * Shots in all three directions of the wye at York, taken from the top of the coaling tower. * Shots of the York coaling tower * Shots of the coal wharf below Hanover Junction * Shots of the turntable below Hanover Junction -- few knew there were helpers there! * Dozens of shots around York, including street running on Persing Avenue! * Shots at Mount Wolf, which had wire screen plants (which supplied Pullman), also a helper district early on Knowing that these rare photos were available and not including them is inexcusable. I have scans of all of them as I was going to do a York book for the Society before they put the brakes on location topical books in recent years. I will contact the owners of these photos about using them in a web-based essay now that "Triumph" has seen fit to harrumph them! Still, this book is enlightening in many areas and it will definitely get a lot of reading in my home! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Some historical questions Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:21:46 +0000 I received a snail mail letter from a woman in North Carolina looking for some PRR and LI information. How she got my name and address in the Chicago area is beyond me but here goes: 1. When did the PRR start running between New York and Wash. DC and from where? I assume it was from Harborside in Jersey City in the late 1800's but need a date and confirmation of station. 2. When did the Long Island Railroad start running trains from Oyster Bay to Jamaica? I assume LIRR trains into New York are roughly 1912 when the tunnels were built but don't know about these locations. Any information you can supply will be forwarded to her. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:09:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Some historical questions According to Ron Ziel's "Steel Rails to the Sunrise," (1965) the Long Island Rail Road built its branch from Mineola to Locust Valley between 1864 and 1871, and it was ultimately extended to Oyster Bay in 1889. The LIRR main line had reached Mineola in 1836 or 1837, so the building of branches was delayed for nearly 30 years! The line ran across the barren Hempstead Plain, "probably the only genuine prairie on the Atlantic Seaborad, populated only by a few wandering herds of cattle." The only village between Jamaica and Hicksville was Brushville, now called Queens Village; Mineola, the junction with the Oyster Bay branch, apparently was nonexistent. Also, Ziel reports that the first revenue train on the LIRR departed from New York Penn Station on September 8, 1910, more than two months before the PRR itself began to use the station. Ziel writes, "Ironically , when the station was finally ready for inspection by the great men of the era, they did not arrive by luxurious Pullman cars from Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh, but by a humble train of LIRRR (MU) commuter cars from Long Island City." The book also reproduces an invitation to a special inspection trip through the tunnels on Sept. 2, 1910. A photo of the first revenue train shows the structural work of the station in gleaming new concrete -- one wonders if it's been cleaned since! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:28:07 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: :[PRR] HO Scale Passenger Consist Bruce has summarized the situation nicely. I can only add some advise on the choice of modernized P70s; P70k = overnight service, the predecessor to the P85b P70GS = daytime long distance service, e.g. passengers from Philly to Pittsburgh P70FB or P70FA (also available from ECW) = short haul, e.g. commuters or passengers from Philly to Lancaster etc. The difference is in seat spacing and washroom accommodations. Many trains would carry some of each and the conductor would direct passengers to an appropriate car. Only the P70Ks were likely to be reserved seating. In addition to the NKP metal sides, Laser Horizons also has most of these cars in plastic sides for less money. Additional suitable cars from Rivarossi are the 10-6, the 12-5, and their RPO (BM70nb sort of). The Bachmann diner (D78) is also suitable for intercity service during your decade. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Bruce Smith wrote: > On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 08:32 PM, Eric Lauterbach wrote: > > I would like some advice one what passenger cars I should buy. I am trying to have a somewhat accurate consist for a 1945-1955 era Pennsy passenger train to be pulled by the Bachmann post-war K4 and BLI T1. I already have two P85b's reserved and a Walthers' R50b on hand. This consist would not have to be an exact match of a particular consist, but would represent the general Pennsy consist of my era. The cars would have to be affordable, such as from Walthers, Rivarossi, or IHC. I have a list of what cars are accurate for the Pennsy from the different companies, but my problem is era and which cars might be seen in same consist together. > > Eric, > > First of all, while you may want to do a generic train, you need to decide what kind of "generic" train you want! Do you want something like the Dusquene? All head end and a few coaches? This would be very appropriate for steam circa 1955...Or are you interested in modeling an accommodation train? Or an all coach train? A post war streamliner Remember that for any given number of passenger, you need eats, so a diner may be the critical issue. Also, during your time frame, many of the new postwar cars were built for consists and kept together. > > For heavyweight Pullmans, wait for the Branchline cars - I've seen the latest test shots on the web and WOW! The 8-1-2 (Cent...series) and 10-1-2 (Lake series) will be available in PRR. However, for your time period, you want to PULLMAN lettered cars (you'll need to check the database for color and probably have PULLMAN lettered Tuscan cars). In addition, the 12-1 will be coming soon and would be appropriate too (one of each would work ) > > One source you should consider for "modernized" pre-war equipment is NKP (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) > Modernized Diner- Low Arch Roof - Close out Special P78-D,F $20.00 > Modernized Diner- Clerestory Roof - Close out Special P78-D,DD $20.00 > P70GS Modernized Coach $54.95 > P70KR Modernized Coach $54.95 > PB70D-Modernized Combine $54.95 > > Also, don't forget the ECW P70FBR, which is appropriate for most of your period... > > So, for a "classic" long distance train...(not a hotshot streamliner but a secondary train) > > Head end: > B60B, X29, R50B, M70B, PB70D > Coaches (2 or 3): > Modernized P70 (P70FBR, P70GS, P70KR...), P85b... > Diner > Lounge/parlor > Sleepers (Branchline Pullmans) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:56:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges Rich, et al, For HO scale, Utah Pacific makes the single post antenna masts for postwar=20 cars either in brass, Walther's catalog #755-91 or in plastic, #755-92. For HO scale prewar cars, Custom Finishing makes the two legged antenna=20 stanchions in brass, Walther's catalog #247-181. Pay no attention to the re= ference=20 to NYC. These were Pullman stanchions that they put on cars for the PRR in=20 addition to cars for that other railroad. Regards, Dennis Sautters Laser Horizons In a message dated 10/27/03 9:00:59 PM, RGortowski@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know of any commercial casting for the brackets that held the= =20 antenna on PRR sleeper/lounge cars?=A0 I am doing a "Colonial" series car fr= om=20 Laser Horizons and I would like to have the correct roof casting, if=20 possible.=A0 I=20 believe that there were 25 castings for the antenna (at least this is what i= s=20 on my Challenger Models "Falls" series Sleeper/Lounge) Thanks, Rich >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:29:57 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Lounge/Sleeper Antenna --part1_14f.25caae82.2cd1c395_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, You guys are great! Thanks to all that answered and especially to those that suggested the Custom Finishing set. I now have a set on order. I will let you know how my PRR "Colonial" mid-train lounge turns out. Thanks, Rich --part1_14f.25caae82.2cd1c395_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List,

You guys are great!  Thanks to all that answered and especially to thos= e that suggested the Custom Finishing set.  I now have a set on order.&= nbsp; I will let you know how my PRR "Colonial" mid-train lounge turns out.<= BR>
Thanks,

Rich --part1_14f.25caae82.2cd1c395_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] X29 thread Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:40:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C39E5C.DACFFEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Helping to fill a request: The March-1963--ORPTE lists the following = AAR--BX classed cars----- 1800--1999 2000--2499 4800--4999 5001--5024 5200--5399 6800--6999 9460--9594 9610--9999 51427-57271 100738-100831 Hope this will answer the questions raised. FredinVt ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C39E5C.DACFFEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Helping to fill a request:  The=20 March-1963--ORPTE lists the following = AAR--BX=20 classed cars-----
  1800--1999
  2000--2499
  4800--4999
  5001--5024
  5200--5399
  6800--6999
  9460--9594
  9610--9999
 51427-57271
100738-100831
Hope this will answer the questions = raised. =20 FredinVt
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C39E5C.DACFFEF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:39:59 -0600 I have used these stanchions. Be aware they are designed for a two-row antenna. Many (most?) of the Pennsy cars had a single row. You will have to adjust the legs to center them as they are designed for a sloped roof. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; For HO scale prewar cars, Custom Finishing makes the two legged antenna stanchions in brass, Walther's catalog #247-181. Pay no attention to the reference to NYC. These were Pullman stanchions that they put on cars for the PRR in addition to cars for that other railroad. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: [PRR] photos needed for research project Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:36:31 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C39E7D.DD2B2A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm looking to borrow or purchase slides and (glossy) photos of PRSL, = LV, and CNJ (and some other roads) RDC cars for a research project. For the PRSL, I'm looking for the original cars without the scare = stripes; not the restored cars of the present CMSL. If anybody can help, please contact me off list. TIA, Chuck Friedlein ironhorse4935@comcast.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C39E7D.DD2B2A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm looking to borrow or purchase slides and = (glossy) photos=20 of PRSL, LV, and CNJ (and some other roads) RDC cars for a = research=20 project.
 
For the PRSL, I'm looking for the original cars = without the=20 scare stripes; not the restored cars of the present CMSL.
 
If anybody can help, please contact me off = list.
 
TIA,
Chuck Friedlein
ironhorse4935@comcast.net=20

------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C39E7D.DD2B2A00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:04:41 -0800 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges >From your description these sound like the antenna supports that came in the Kasiner O scale kits. They had a center opening, two legs, and were slightly wider at the bottom. Might they be the same for the HO versions? Kasiner's HO kits were later sold as OK, made by Herkimer Tool & Die or some such... Steve Bartlett Andrew S. Miller wrote: These are unique fittings and I don't believe anyone makes them :-(( I have faced the same quandary myself . They were used on all post war mid-train lounges and observation cars. The best stand-in I could muster is the Grant Line Queen posts in the shortest length. It does not have the hollow underneath forming two legs, rather it is a solid upside-down "T" shape", but in HO it looks very good. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:15:12 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered one to make this a sort of N6b? Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 05:24:35 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster John Bobsin writes: "According to Ron Ziel's "Steel Rails to the Sunrise," (1965) . . ." and "Also, Ziel reports that ..." --which totally overlooks the fact that "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" was not a solo production by Ziel. The book was co-authored by George H. Foster, whose contribution in terms of research, writing/editing and publication should never be overlooked. George Foster is, regrettably, no longer around to remind us of this, but it's necessary to counteract careless references and sloppy citations wherever they occur. Ziel didn't report anything; Ziel and Foster did. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:47:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] You Gotta See This! From: Jerry Britton On a recent 12"=1' excursion, Bob Martin, president of the HO Central Pennsylvania Railroad where I often operate, was jagging me about N scale. He (half) jokingly suggested that since I am modeling a multi-track main that if I spaced the tracks right I could still run HO scale between the tracks. Well, last night Bob and a few other CPRR operators visited the PRR-ER for the first time. The subject came up, and I happened to have an HO scale Spectrum business car on loan from Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South Central Region, another layout I occasionally run on. For laughs, I placed it one the outside rails of two tracks. A laugh's a laugh, but it fit perfectly, totally by chance!!! The car rolled quite freely over about six feet of track that I had it on. And, since the rails are indeed different polarities, you could actually run a locomotive this way! (Don't know why you'd want to, but you could!) Hey, for Halloween's sake, take a look... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00501/00661_m.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:25:15 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] You Gotta See This! This trick was done intentionally many years ago at the Tech Model RR Club at MIT. Since we had members for four years with diverse model RR backgrounds and preferences for many scales, one of the freight yards was designed with irregular spacing between the tracks so that any of the known gauges from O to TTn3 could be operated and powered on an appropriately chosen pair of rails. N had not been invented yet. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jerry Britton wrote: > On a recent 12"=1' excursion, Bob Martin, president of the HO Central > Pennsylvania Railroad where I often operate, was jagging me about N > scale. He (half) jokingly suggested that since I am modeling a > multi-track main that if I spaced the tracks right I could still run HO > scale between the tracks. > > Well, last night Bob and a few other CPRR operators visited the PRR-ER > for the first time. The subject came up, and I happened to have an HO > scale Spectrum business car on loan from Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South > Central Region, another layout I occasionally run on. > > For laughs, I placed it one the outside rails of two tracks. A laugh's > a laugh, but it fit perfectly, totally by chance!!! > > The car rolled quite freely over about six feet of track that I had it > on. And, since the rails are indeed different polarities, you could > actually run a locomotive this way! (Don't know why you'd want to, but > you could!) > > Hey, for Halloween's sake, take a look... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00501/00661_m.jpg > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:28:39 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts You could steal the plastic cupola off a Model Power caboose. For that matter, with a little detailing (new steps, new railings and ladder, new underbody detail, trucks and couplers) , The Model Power caboose makes a fine N6b. I just picked up a few more at a train show for 99 cents each and will put them through "the treatment". Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:09:48 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Water columns From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I just finished putting together 5 water columns for a hopper marshaling yard I'm constructing on our club layout. I spent about 45 minutes going through color photos looking for examples of columns and managed to find a couple that were pretty close to the photographer's lens. They look grimy black, as might be expected. But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, what color? I figured I'd spray the base color, then overspray with grimy black and add some rust. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:58:35 -0600 The MP conversion you speak about might be nice article for the Keystone Modeler. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:29 AM To: jlmcdaniel@esva.net Cc: PRR Talk; PRR-FAX Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts You could steal the plastic cupola off a Model Power caboose. For that matter, with a little detailing (new steps, new railings and ladder, new underbody detail, trucks and couplers) , The Model Power caboose makes a fine N6b. I just picked up a few more at a train show for 99 cents each and will put them through "the treatment". Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:48:20 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look --On Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:10 -0500 "Jerry Britton" wrote: > Like previous volumes, this one is a "must have", due largely to all of > the previously unpublished photos it contains. However, like previous > volumes, it also leaves something to be desired. (I see my coining the word "harrumph" has entered the lexicon on Roberts/Messner, Jerry ;-) I know I always look forward to another volume of the harrumph series for its pithy editorial comments on the EEEE-vile PRR doing the nasty to the poor, little BeeNo and/or careless little historical errors that set the discerning reader off his/her fresh fried lobster. And I look forward to the extensive errata that will no doubt show up on this list (but, unfortunately, never in print in the railfan or railroad history press). My favorite Roberts "best left unsaid" editorial comment: In the first Harrumph, he soliloquizes on a father-son trip to the Horseshoe in the good old days. One of Little Charlie's lasting memories of that day was that the track gang wasn't composed of Black men as it would have been on the bad ol' racist BeeNo and other southern RRs. That is undoubtedly true. But what the historically challenged Roberts failed to understand was that Pennsylvania had its own versions of ethnic minority gang laborers in those days. In this case those men were probably Italian, or 1st gen. Italian-Americans, and they were not considered, in the racial landscape of the time, to be exactly White. Books have been written on the subject (and, of course a nicely produced video tape of oral histories by those same track workers on the Curve is available), but, of course sources other than their own don't seem to interest the author/editorial team of Harrumph. If you're going to bare your late-20th Century social conscience in a book about a complex technological system like a railroad, at least do it intelligently! My favorite Harrumph error is captioning the classic lithograph of the original CVRR bridge at Harrisburg as the Reading's, with the camelback bridge in the background (you all know it: the one with where the roadway actually had humps as it followed the arches across the river) as the CVRR's. Think about how carefully THAT image was looked at before deciding to use it! Oh, and since it graced the cover of the definitive book on the CVRR before 1919, I guess we can rule out that the author/editorial team bother to read the definitive _carefully researched_ history of the CVRR. They screwed up the sidebar stuff on the East Broad Top, too, but that's OK, because it was just another narrow gauge feeder, right? And why bother to read, or even leaf through, _East Broad Top_ by Rainey and Kyper to get it right? If you slap a keystone on it, it'll sell, right? Oh, Pshaw! I'll buy the darned thing for the pictures and maps, anyway. That will be the series' lasting contribution to the literature on the Pennsy. And no book is ever perfect, or even the last word on any subject. At least since Roberts has 'retired', the editorials have faded. I just hope THIS TIME the author gets right whatever he decides to write about! There's a first time for everything, right? Vagel 'Messner Ignored My Letter, Too' Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:00:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look From: Jerry Britton I gave it another "looksie" last evening. The Frederick Branch was poorly done as well. According to Harrumph, you'd think it had an end point at Spring Grove. Yes, there is coverage of the paper mill there, but what about the mile long "gauntlet" of industry in West York where the PRR shared the RoW with the WM? That would be an awesome subject for modular modeling -- a la Bill Denton's Kingsbury branch that has been featured in MR, except it would be PRR!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:07:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster Oops. Sorry, my error, of course both authored the book. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Sanborn map source Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:37:32 +0000 I came across a source of Sanborn maps with a couple of caveats. This person will supply Sanborn maps on CD for $1.00 per map and $5.00 handling. If the order is more than 50 maps he gives a 10% discount and does not charge for shipping and handling. The only consideration (and it could be one) is that he is only allowed to sell maps up through the 1927 series. The web page is www.utahice.com which lists what is available from him by state. The e mail contact if you know the map designation(s) is seleniteman@comcast.net. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:28:09 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts So, ...where might I find a Model Power cabin? I live in the boonies with nary a hobby shop or train meet in sight. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva-- not really the boonies but nicely isolated from traffic and all that ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:15:20 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look --- "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." wrote: > But what the historically challenged Roberts failed to understand > was that > Pennsylvania had its own versions of ethnic minority gang laborers > in those > days. In this case those men were probably Italian, or 1st gen. > Italian-Americans, and they were not considered, in the racial > landscape of > the time, to be exactly White. In corroboration: Decades ago I read in a then elderly copy of the Ligonier Echo an account of an accident on the Ligonier Valley Railroad. The account said something like: Injured in the accident were Mr and Mrs John Jones of this place, Dr Richard Smith of Latrobe, two strangers, and three Italians. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:18:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > I just finished putting together 5 water columns... > They look grimy black, as might be expected. > But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, > what color? >From 1938 to 1948 I lived about 150' feet away from a water column in Latrobe, PA. As best I can recall, it was always black. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:52:44 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Thanks Bob. Actually, I suspect that everything was black. If Mom and Dad had to take the black off our wallpaper every year or so, I'm sure everything else was grimy black also. If you remember the column, you must remember lights on at noon in Pittsburgh and the Donora smog. I was too young to remember those things. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: robert netzlof >To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" , PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns >Date: Thu, 30 Oct, 2003, 14:18 > > --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: >> I just finished putting together 5 water columns... > >> They look grimy black, as might be expected. > >> But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, >> what color? > > From 1938 to 1948 I lived about 150' feet away from a water column in > Latrobe, PA. As best I can recall, it was always black. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:11:00 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] FGE's FHIX and WHIX In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000 > From: "Ed DeRouin" > Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases. > > Rick and Others: > > The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily > insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that > a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published > over twenty years ago. > > Ed DeRouin Hi Ed, You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3. If you can unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos: 1. reporting marks 2. comments on the car 3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line) 4. reference location, reference title, and reference page. CBC is the Car Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia. 5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage Letcode FHIX #40001 50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 349 FGE29 FHIX #40701 steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56 FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52 WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS Express Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN WHIX #70007 RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guide to Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN WHIX #70453 steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN WHIX #70665 steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67 WHIX #70704 steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70 As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've listed originated in the Sixties. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:10:58 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29 BX quantities In a message dated 10/30/03 1:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: X29 thread > From: "Fred in Vt." > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:40:14 -0500 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C39E5C.DACFFEF0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Helping to fill a request: The March-1963--ORPTE lists the following = > AAR--BX classed cars----- > 1800--1999 > 2000--2499 > 4800--4999 > 5001--5024 > 5200--5399 > 6800--6999 > 9460--9594 > 9610--9999 > 51427-57271 > 100738-100831 > Hope this will answer the questions raised. FredinVt > Fred, I appreciate your looking this up. Could you indulge me further? 1. how many cars exist in each number series? For example, in 1954, the 1800-1999 series did not contain any cars yet. It's likely all 200 slots were filled subsequently, as in 1965 there were still 196 of them in service. 2. Are we sure the two BX cars in freight series 566091-574090 are gone? They disappear sometime around here. 3. Take a second look and see if the 5001-5024 series isn't different from the others. In other ORPTE's, these are AAR class NE, and are N5 cabin cars described as "crew express", with only the vaguest of dimensions showing. For those following this thread, my table of X29 BX (and earlier X25 BX) car count over time is filling in, and now runs from 1930 to 1968. I still need ORPTE citations by number series from about 1960, and I need a reread on December 1958. When these holes are filled in, we'll have to get this table up on the web. The overall lesson for those interested in these cars is that the occupied number series change a great deal starting in the late Fifties. The numbers in all series appeared to decline in the Sixties, presumably as mail was diverted to the tin birds, and other express moved more by Interstate highway. Post-1972, I was able to take pix of some of the surviving series, mostly being used by PC or Conrail as storage sheds. Of course, those pix, in at least 3 lettering schemes, are too late to catch the popular "Railway Express Agency" legend. Factoid: Modelers don't like it that the REA marking was discontinued on cars painted in SK1b, SK2a, SK2b, and PK schemes that came starting in 1954. One good excuse for modeling the mid-fifties as Jerry Britton does. Again, thanks to all who have helped. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:11:00 EST Subject: [PRR] FGE's FHIX and WHIX --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000 > From: "Ed DeRouin" > Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases. > > Rick and Others: > > The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily > insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that > a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published > over twenty years ago. > > Ed DeRouin Hi Ed, You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3. If you can unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos: 1. reporting marks 2. comments on the car 3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line) 4. reference location, reference title, and reference page. CBC is the Car Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia. 5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage Letcode FHIX #40001 50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 349 FGE29 FHIX #40701 steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56 FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52 WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS Express Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN WHIX #70007 RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guide to Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN WHIX #70453 steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN WHIX #70665 steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67 WHIX #70704 steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70 As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've listed originated in the Sixties. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000
   From: "Ed DeRouin" <Ed@pixelspublishing.com>
Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases.

Rick and Others:

The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily
insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that
a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published
over twenty years ago.

Ed DeRouin


Hi Ed,

You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3.  If you=20= can unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos:
1. reporting marks
2. comments on the car
3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line)
4. reference location, reference title, and reference page.  CBC is the= Car Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia.
5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture

Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage Letc= ode
FHIX #40001    50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 =20= 349 FGE29
FHIX #40701     steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic=20= Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56
FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52
WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS Ex= press Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN
WHIX #70007   RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guid= e to Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN
WHIX #70453   steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars =20= Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN
WHIX #70665   steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freigh= t Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67
WHIX #70704   steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Fr= eight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70

As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've=20= listed originated in the Sixties.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:10:58 EST Subject: [PRR] X29 BX quantities --part1_1eb.12363339.2cd2d862_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/30/03 1:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: X29 thread > From: "Fred in Vt." > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:40:14 -0500 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C39E5C.DACFFEF0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Helping to fill a request: The March-1963--ORPTE lists the following = > AAR--BX classed cars----- > 1800--1999 > 2000--2499 > 4800--4999 > 5001--5024 > 5200--5399 > 6800--6999 > 9460--9594 > 9610--9999 > 51427-57271 > 100738-100831 > Hope this will answer the questions raised. FredinVt > Fred, I appreciate your looking this up. Could you indulge me further? 1. how many cars exist in each number series? For example, in 1954, the 1800-1999 series did not contain any cars yet. It's likely all 200 slots were filled subsequently, as in 1965 there were still 196 of them in service. 2. Are we sure the two BX cars in freight series 566091-574090 are gone? They disappear sometime around here. 3. Take a second look and see if the 5001-5024 series isn't different from the others. In other ORPTE's, these are AAR class NE, and are N5 cabin cars described as "crew express", with only the vaguest of dimensions showing. For those following this thread, my table of X29 BX (and earlier X25 BX) car count over time is filling in, and now runs from 1930 to 1968. I still need ORPTE citations by number series from about 1960, and I need a reread on December 1958. When these holes are filled in, we'll have to get this table up on the web. The overall lesson for those interested in these cars is that the occupied number series change a great deal starting in the late Fifties. The numbers in all series appeared to decline in the Sixties, presumably as mail was diverted to the tin birds, and other express moved more by Interstate highway. Post-1972, I was able to take pix of some of the surviving series, mostly being used by PC or Conrail as storage sheds. Of course, those pix, in at least 3 lettering schemes, are too late to catch the popular "Railway Express Agency" legend. Factoid: Modelers don't like it that the REA marking was discontinued on cars painted in SK1b, SK2a, SK2b, and PK schemes that came starting in 1954. One good excuse for modeling the mid-fifties as Jerry Britton does. Again, thanks to all who have helped. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1eb.12363339.2cd2d862_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/30/03 1:12:22 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: X29 thread
From: "Fred in Vt." <pennsy@sover.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:40:14 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=3D_NextPart_000_001C_01C39E5C.DACFFEF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Helping to fill a request:  The March-1963--ORPTE lists the following=20= =3D
AAR--BX classed cars-----
  1800--1999
  2000--2499
  4800--4999
  5001--5024
  5200--5399
  6800--6999
  9460--9594
  9610--9999
51427-57271
100738-100831
Hope this will answer the questions raised.  FredinVt


Fred,

I appreciate your looking this up.  Could you indulge me further?
1. how many cars exist in each number series?  For example, in 1954, th= e 1800-1999 series did not contain any cars yet.  It's likely all 200 s= lots were filled subsequently, as in 1965 there were still 196 of them in se= rvice.

2. Are we sure the two BX cars in freight series 566091-574090 are gone?&nbs= p; They disappear sometime around here.

3. Take a second look and see if the 5001-5024 series isn't different from t= he others.  In other ORPTE's, these are AAR class NE, and are N5 cabin=20= cars described as "crew express", with only the vaguest of dimensions showin= g.

For those following this thread, my table of X29 BX (and earlier X25 BX) car= count over time is filling in, and now runs from 1930 to 1968.  I stil= l need ORPTE citations by number series from about 1960, and I need a reread= on December 1958.  When these holes are filled in, we'll have to get t= his table up on the web.

The overall lesson for those interested in these cars is that the occupied n= umber series change a great deal starting in the late Fifties.  The num= bers in all series appeared to decline in the Sixties, presumably as mail wa= s diverted to the tin birds, and other express moved more by Interstate high= way.  Post-1972, I was able to take pix of some of the surviving series= , mostly being used by PC or Conrail as storage sheds.  Of course, thos= e pix, in at least 3 lettering schemes, are too late to catch the popular "R= ailway Express Agency" legend. 

Factoid:  Modelers don't like it that the REA marking was discontinued=20= on cars painted in SK1b, SK2a, SK2b, and PK schemes that came starting in 19= 54.  One good excuse for modeling the mid-fifties as Jerry Britton does= .

Again, thanks to all who have helped.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1eb.12363339.2cd2d862_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:17:28 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR=ER vs. FRA --part1_1a9.1c120517.2cd2d9e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, Aren't you afraid of the FRA fining the PPR-ER for this violation? HO scale is what, half the railroad in the same space or the same railroad in twice the space?? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1a9.1c120517.2cd2d9e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,

  Aren't you afraid of the FRA fining the PPR-ER for this violation?&nb= sp; 

  HO scale is what,  half the railroad in the same space or the sa= me railroad in twice the space?? <G>


Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1a9.1c120517.2cd2d9e8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:30:34 -0500 From: Martin Harriss Subject: [PRR] Bowser B6 now available It apprears that Bowser's B6 is now available (they just updated their web page this morning.) Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robertke@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/30/03:Antenna Bracket Castings for Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:24:04 +0000 I am currently buiding a "Falls" sleeper/lounge and have purchased Custom Finishes part # A-181 - NYC Antenna Set. These have the same appearance as the antenna supports in the photo of Sassafras Falls in "The Official Pullman Library, Vol. 4, PRR" Bob Kessler > PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, October 30, 2003 > > Re: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges > by "Stephen Bartlett" > Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "James L. McDaniel" > Ron Ziel and George Foster > by "Peter Weiglin" > You Gotta See This! > by "Jerry Britton" > Re: [PRR] You Gotta See This! > by "Andrew S. Miller" > Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "Andrew S. Miller" > Water columns > by "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > RE: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > by "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." > Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > by "Jerry Britton" > Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster > by > Sanborn map source > by > Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "James L. McDaniel" > Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > by "robert netzlof" > Re: [PRR] Water columns > by "robert netzlof" > Re: [PRR] Water columns > by "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > FGE's FHIX and WHIX > by > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges > From: "Stephen Bartlett" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:04:41 -0800 > > From your description these sound like the antenna supports that came in > the Kasiner O scale kits. They had a center opening, two legs, and were > slightly wider at the bottom. Might they be the same for the HO > versions? Kasiner's HO kits were later sold as OK, made by Herkimer > Tool & Die or some such... > > Steve Bartlett > > Andrew S. Miller wrote: > These are unique fittings and I don't believe anyone makes them :-(( I > have faced the same quandary myself . They were used on all post war > mid-train lounges and observation cars. > > The best stand-in I could muster is the Grant Line Queen posts in the > shortest length. It does not have the hollow underneath forming two > legs, rather it is a solid upside-down "T" shape", but in HO it looks > very good. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "James L. McDaniel" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:15:12 -0500 > > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Ron Ziel and George Foster > From: "Peter Weiglin" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 05:24:35 -0800 > > John Bobsin writes: > > "According to Ron Ziel's "Steel Rails to the Sunrise," (1965) . . ." > > and > > "Also, Ziel reports that ..." > > --which totally overlooks the fact that "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" was not a > solo production by Ziel. The book was co-authored by George H. Foster, whose > contribution in terms of research, writing/editing and publication should never > be overlooked. > > George Foster is, regrettably, no longer around to remind us of this, but it's > necessary to counteract careless references and sloppy citations wherever they > occur. > > Ziel didn't report anything; Ziel and Foster did. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: You Gotta See This! > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:47:46 -0500 > > On a recent 12"=1' excursion, Bob Martin, president of the HO Central > Pennsylvania Railroad where I often operate, was jagging me about N > scale. He (half) jokingly suggested that since I am modeling a > multi-track main that if I spaced the tracks right I could still run HO > scale between the tracks. > > Well, last night Bob and a few other CPRR operators visited the PRR-ER > for the first time. The subject came up, and I happened to have an HO > scale Spectrum business car on loan from Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South > Central Region, another layout I occasionally run on. > > For laughs, I placed it one the outside rails of two tracks. A laugh's > a laugh, but it fit perfectly, totally by chance!!! > > The car rolled quite freely over about six feet of track that I had it > on. And, since the rails are indeed different polarities, you could > actually run a locomotive this way! (Don't know why you'd want to, but > you could!) > > Hey, for Halloween's sake, take a look... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00501/00661_m.jpg > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] You Gotta See This! > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:25:15 -0500 > > This trick was done intentionally many years ago at the Tech Model RR Club > at MIT. Since we had members for four years with diverse model RR > backgrounds and preferences for many scales, one of the freight yards was > designed with irregular spacing between the tracks so that any of the known > gauges from O to TTn3 could be operated and powered on an appropriately > chosen pair of rails. N had not been invented yet. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > On a recent 12"=1' excursion, Bob Martin, president of the HO Central > > Pennsylvania Railroad where I often operate, was jagging me about N > > scale. He (half) jokingly suggested that since I am modeling a > > multi-track main that if I spaced the tracks right I could still run HO > > scale between the tracks. > > > > Well, last night Bob and a few other CPRR operators visited the PRR-ER > > for the first time. The subject came up, and I happened to have an HO > > scale Spectrum business car on loan from Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South > > Central Region, another layout I occasionally run on. > > > > For laughs, I placed it one the outside rails of two tracks. A laugh's > > a laugh, but it fit perfectly, totally by chance!!! > > > > The car rolled quite freely over about six feet of track that I had it > > on. And, since the rails are indeed different polarities, you could > > actually run a locomotive this way! (Don't know why you'd want to, but > > you could!) > > > > Hey, for Halloween's sake, take a look... > > > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00501/00661_m.jpg > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:28:39 -0500 > > You could steal the plastic cupola off a Model Power caboose. For that > matter, with a little detailing (new steps, new railings and ladder, new > underbody detail, trucks and couplers) , The Model Power caboose makes a > fine N6b. I just picked up a few more at a train show for 99 cents each > and will put them through "the treatment". > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Water columns > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:09:48 -0600 > > I just finished putting together 5 water columns for a hopper marshaling > yard I'm constructing on our club layout. I spent about 45 minutes going > through color photos looking for examples of columns and managed to find a > couple that were pretty close to the photographer's lens. > > They look grimy black, as might be expected. > > But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, what color? > I figured I'd spray the base color, then overspray with grimy black and add > some rust. > > Don Harper > Marine Lab > Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:58:35 -0600 > > The MP conversion you speak about might be nice article for the Keystone > Modeler. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:29 AM > To: jlmcdaniel@esva.net > Cc: PRR Talk; PRR-FAX > Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > > > You could steal the plastic cupola off a Model Power caboose. For that > matter, with a little detailing (new steps, new railings and ladder, new > underbody detail, trucks and couplers) , The Model Power caboose makes a > fine N6b. I just picked up a few more at a train show for 99 cents each > and will put them through "the treatment". > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:48:20 -0500 > > --On Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:10 -0500 "Jerry Britton" > wrote: > > > > Like previous volumes, this one is a "must have", due largely to all of > > the previously unpublished photos it contains. However, like previous > > volumes, it also leaves something to be desired. > > (I see my coining the word "harrumph" has entered the lexicon on > Roberts/Messner, Jerry ;-) > > I know I always look forward to another volume of the harrumph series for > its pithy editorial comments on the EEEE-vile PRR doing the nasty to the > poor, little BeeNo and/or careless little historical errors that set the > discerning reader off his/her fresh fried lobster. And I look forward to > the extensive errata that will no doubt show up on this list (but, > unfortunately, never in print in the railfan or railroad history press). > > My favorite Roberts "best left unsaid" editorial comment: In the first > Harrumph, he soliloquizes on a father-son trip to the Horseshoe in the good > old days. One of Little Charlie's lasting memories of that day was that > the track gang wasn't composed of Black men as it would have been on the > bad ol' racist BeeNo and other southern RRs. That is undoubtedly true. > But what the historically challenged Roberts failed to understand was that > Pennsylvania had its own versions of ethnic minority gang laborers in those > days. In this case those men were probably Italian, or 1st gen. > Italian-Americans, and they were not considered, in the racial landscape of > the time, to be exactly White. Books have been written on the subject > (and, of course a nicely produced video tape of oral histories by those > same track workers on the Curve is available), but, of course sources other > than their own don't seem to interest the author/editorial team of > Harrumph. If you're going to bare your late-20th Century social conscience > in a book about a complex technological system like a railroad, at least do > it intelligently! > > My favorite Harrumph error is captioning the classic lithograph of the > original CVRR bridge at Harrisburg as the Reading's, with the camelback > bridge in the background (you all know it: the one with where the roadway > actually had humps as it followed the arches across the river) as the > CVRR's. Think about how carefully THAT image was looked at before deciding > to use it! Oh, and since it graced the cover of the definitive book on the > CVRR before 1919, I guess we can rule out that the author/editorial team > bother to read the definitive _carefully researched_ history of the CVRR. > They screwed up the sidebar stuff on the East Broad Top, too, but that's > OK, because it was just another narrow gauge feeder, right? And why bother > to read, or even leaf through, _East Broad Top_ by Rainey and Kyper to get > it right? If you slap a keystone on it, it'll sell, right? > > Oh, Pshaw! I'll buy the darned thing for the pictures and maps, anyway. > That will be the series' lasting contribution to the literature on the > Pennsy. And no book is ever perfect, or even the last word on any subject. > At least since Roberts has 'retired', the editorials have faded. I just > hope THIS TIME the author gets right whatever he decides to write about! > There's a first time for everything, right? > > Vagel 'Messner Ignored My Letter, Too' Keller > Pittsburgh > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:00:36 -0500 > > I gave it another "looksie" last evening. The Frederick Branch was > poorly done as well. According to Harrumph, you'd think it had an end > point at Spring Grove. Yes, there is coverage of the paper mill there, > but what about the mile long "gauntlet" of industry in West York where > the PRR shared the RoW with the WM? That would be an awesome subject > for modular modeling -- a la Bill Denton's Kingsbury branch that has > been featured in MR, except it would be PRR!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster > From: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:07:22 -0500 > > Oops. Sorry, my error, of course both authored the book. -- John > Bobsin > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Sanborn map source > From: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:37:32 +0000 > > I came across a source of Sanborn maps with a couple of caveats. This person > will supply Sanborn maps on CD for $1.00 per map and $5.00 handling. If the > order is more than 50 maps he gives a 10% discount and does not charge for > shipping and handling. The only consideration (and it could be one) is that > he is only allowed to sell maps up through the 1927 series. The web page is > www.utahice.com which lists what is available from him by state. The e mail > contact if you know the map designation(s) is seleniteman@comcast.net. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "James L. McDaniel" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:28:09 -0500 > > So, ...where might I find a Model Power cabin? I live in the boonies > with nary a hobby shop or train meet in sight. > > Jim McDaniel, Delmarva-- not really the boonies but nicely isolated from > traffic and all that > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:15:20 -0800 (PST) > > --- "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." wrote: > > > But what the historically challenged Roberts failed to understand > > was that > > Pennsylvania had its own versions of ethnic minority gang laborers > > in those > > days. In this case those men were probably Italian, or 1st gen. > > Italian-Americans, and they were not considered, in the racial > > landscape of > > the time, to be exactly White. > > In corroboration: > > Decades ago I read in a then elderly copy of the Ligonier Echo an > account of an accident on the Ligonier Valley Railroad. The account > said something like: Injured in the accident were Mr and Mrs John > Jones of this place, Dr Richard Smith of Latrobe, two strangers, and > three Italians. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:18:44 -0800 (PST) > > --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > > I just finished putting together 5 water columns... > > > They look grimy black, as might be expected. > > > But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, > > what color? > > From 1938 to 1948 I lived about 150' feet away from a water column in > Latrobe, PA. As best I can recall, it was always black. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:52:44 -0600 > > Thanks Bob. Actually, I suspect that everything was black. If Mom and Dad > had to take the black off our wallpaper every year or so, I'm sure > everything else was grimy black also. If you remember the column, you must > remember lights on at noon in Pittsburgh and the Donora smog. I was too > young to remember those things. > > Don Harper > Marine Lab > Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------- > >From: robert netzlof > >To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" , PRR-Talk > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns > >Date: Thu, 30 Oct, 2003, 14:18 > > > > > --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > >> I just finished putting together 5 water columns... > > > >> They look grimy black, as might be expected. > > > >> But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, > >> what color? > > > > From 1938 to 1948 I lived about 150' feet away from a water column in > > Latrobe, PA. As best I can recall, it was always black. > > > > ===== > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: FGE's FHIX and WHIX > From: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:11:00 EST > > > --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000 > > From: "Ed DeRouin" > > Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases. > > > > Rick and Others: > > > > The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily > > insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that > > a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published > > over twenty years ago. > > > > Ed DeRouin > > Hi Ed, > > You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3. If you can > unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos: > 1. reporting marks > 2. comments on the car > 3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line) > 4. reference location, reference title, and reference page. CBC is the Car > Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia. > 5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture > > Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage > Letcode > FHIX #40001 50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 349 FGE29 > FHIX #40701 steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 > 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56 > FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52 > WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS > Express Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN > WHIX #70007 RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guide to > Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN > WHIX #70453 steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 > Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN > WHIX #70665 steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freight Cars > Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67 > WHIX #70704 steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Freight Cars > Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70 > > As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've > listed originated in the Sixties. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standar= > d Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000
>    From: "Ed DeRouin" <Ed@pixelspublishing.com>
> Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases.
>
> Rick and Others:
>
> The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily
> insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that
> a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published
> over twenty years ago.
>
> Ed DeRouin

>
> Hi Ed,
>
> You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3.  If you=20= > can unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos:
> 1. reporting marks
> 2. comments on the car
> 3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line)
> 4. reference location, reference title, and reference page.  CBC is the= > Car Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia.
> 5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture
>
> Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage Letc= > ode
> FHIX #40001    50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 =20= > 349 FGE29
> FHIX #40701     steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic=20= > Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56
> FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52
> WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS Ex= > press Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN
> WHIX #70007   RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guid= > e to Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN
> WHIX #70453   steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars =20= > Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN
> WHIX #70665   steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freigh= > t Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67
> WHIX #70704   steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Fr= > eight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70
>
> As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've=20= > listed originated in the Sixties.
>
> FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">Rick Tipton
> Louisville KY
> Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= > /HTML> > > --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary-- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > End of PRR-Talk Digest > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:34:17 -0600 Jim McDaniel asked: So, ...where might I find a Model Power cabin? I live in the boonies with nary a hobby shop or train meet in sight. Here's one on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3152680740&category=484 Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:04:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 now available From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 05:30 PM, Martin Harriss wrote: > It apprears that Bowser's B6 is now available (they just updated their > web page this morning.) Yes, Lee English notified dealers this morning that they were packed and ready to ship. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:15:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster From: aurora7@juno.com Ron and George were both personal friends of mine, and I spent considerable time in their company. George told me that in "Steel Rails...", he was largely responsible for the research and documentation of the LIRR's steamship operations. That is not to say that he was not involved in the railroad operations writing, but he was not as involved in that aspect as was Ron. The pair also authored "Steam in the Sixties" and bankrolled the only steam fan trip on the LIRR since 1955. The two men were heavily invested in rebuilding the Sag Harbor Branch of the LIRR, forming a private steam tourist operation. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:15:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster From: aurora7@juno.com Ron and George were both personal friends of mine, and I spent considerable time in their company. George told me that in "Steel Rails...", he was largely responsible for the research and documentation of the LIRR's steamship operations. That is not to say that he was not involved in the railroad operations writing, but he was not as involved in that aspect as was Ron. The pair also authored "Steam in the Sixties" and bankrolled the only steam fan trip on the LIRR since 1955. The two men were heavily invested in rebuilding the Sag Harbor Branch of the LIRR, forming a private steam tourist operation. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > ...I suspect that everything was black... > If you remember the column, you must > remember lights on at noon in Pittsburgh... Ah, but Pittsburgh was a distant and fabled land, visited but once a year, if then, and only after much preparation and general backing and shuffling. > ...and the Donora smog. I think I recall hearing about it on KDKA at the time, but at the time, Donora was even more remote than Pittsburgh. > I was too young to remember those things. And now I'm too old to remember them. Should have taken better notes back then. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:00:34 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars Hi Fred, My photocopy of the Apr 1938 ORER has the following entry: AAR Designation BX Express 2000-2498 (number of cars 215) under 60 ft length. While the ORER does NOT give the PRR class designation for passenger equipmenbt (it DOES for freight equipment) these are probably the X29 cars assigned for that era. I believe the low 2000's numbers were X29 cars for a very long time - probably during your 1937 era as well as earlier and later. - Claus Date sent: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars To: Jerry Britton Copies to: PRR-Talk LIST > Thanks again Jerry, > > My initial attempts at resreach so far have lead me to > conclude that there was some renumbering of Passenger > equipment between the 1930s and 1950's. I do not have > enough info yet to determine if this was general, or > applied to rebuilds, etc. > > In regards to the 1937 ORER (Official Railway > Equipment Register): Would anyone have any clues as to > where I should begin my serach. Is this something a > museum or library may have? Or should I be checking > EBAY? > > Thanks!! > Fred > > > > > > > Was there a renumbering? Are you aware of a > > > 1930s passenger car listing that I may be able to > > > obtain for future reference for my modeling era > > > (1937)? > > > > Probably is attributable to a renumbering. > > > > Try to find yourself a copy of a 1937 ORER (Official > > Railway Equipment > > Register) which would give you valid number ranges. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:56:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster Richard writes that " . . . (Ziel and Foster) and bankrolled the only steam fan trip on the LIRR since 1955." That must've been about 1967, to Montauk and back. I was on the train, which ran into trouble in the electrified zone on the return trip, stalling for a while in Merrick, where I was living at the time. MUs backed up behind it, the railroad must've been frantic, and I hit the cinders (much to the dismay of the car hosts) and hoofed it home. I heard it was later pulled in by diesels from somewhere around Valley Stream. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:56:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster Richard writes that " . . . (Ziel and Foster) and bankrolled the only steam fan trip on the LIRR since 1955." That must've been about 1967, to Montauk and back. I was on the train, which ran into trouble in the electrified zone on the return trip, stalling for a while in Merrick, where I was living at the time. MUs backed up behind it, the railroad must've been frantic, and I hit the cinders (much to the dismay of the car hosts) and hoofed it home. I heard it was later pulled in by diesels from somewhere around Valley Stream. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:24:41 -0500 Did the Sag Harbor Branch get rebuilt?? Is someone operating it??? I grew up on Long Island and remember visiting Sag Harbor. That would make a great little excursion line. How come I've never heard of it? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster > Ron and George were both personal friends of mine, and I spent > considerable time in their company. George told me that in "Steel > Rails...", he was largely responsible for the research and documentation > of the LIRR's steamship operations. That is not to say that he was not > involved in the railroad operations writing, but he was not as involved > in that aspect as was Ron. The pair also authored "Steam in the Sixties" > and bankrolled the only steam fan trip on the LIRR since 1955. The two > men were heavily invested in rebuilding the Sag Harbor Branch of the > LIRR, forming a private steam tourist operation. > > > Richard Glueck > Peace of the Planet Farm > Winterport, Maine > > "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:43:50 -0500 From: Rod Schaffter Subject: [PRR] Tales From The Allegheny Foothills Hi all, Here is an interesting page I came across with some interesting background history of the Bedford County, PA area by Vaughn Whisker. As an example, from Volume 3, "Railroad Excursions In 1899": "'Bedford is easily and comfortably reached by the main line of the Pennsylvania Railroad to Huntingdon, thence to the Bedford Division.' The through rates roundtrip from Altoona to Bedford was $4.35, Hollidaysburg $4.75, Baltimore, Md., and Washington, D.C. at $11.80 or Cumberland $1.85, Philadelphia $12.75, New York $16.75." Cheers, Rod Schaffter -- "It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else blooms again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, you rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and bright skies alive, and then, just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops." --A. Bartlett Giamatti ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:13:10 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Class designation (was:Road numbers of X29...) Claus Schlund wrote (in part): > . . . > While the ORER does NOT give the PRR class designation for passenger > equipmenbt (it DOES for freight equipment) ... ======================================================= The ORER apparently printed whatever data the various RRs cared to submit. I suspect all they demanded were reporting marks and per diem. Unique among the RRs, the PRR provided their freight car class designations (bless them). It makes like a lot easier on modelers. Try figuring out from the ORER what class of car a particular NYC or ATSF (or any other big road) is, or what numbers are appropriate for a particular class of car. Except for the PRR you are left guessing from from what data is available: length, width of doorway, height, etc. Another good reason to model the Pennsy! Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:27:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Kato F Unit Questions From: Jerry Britton Quite a while ago (10 years?) Kato ran PRR F units. Got a few questions about them, if anyone has them... They did F3's. The A unit was part number 176-071 and the B unit was part number 176-081. What were the road numbers? Are these Phase II "Early" units? (full chicken wire, high fans) Are they pretty accurate for what they depict? They did F7's. A unit was part number 176-094 and the B unit was part number 176-103. Again, what were the road numbers? What phase are they? What spotting features do they have? Number boards streamlined or 45-degree? Stainless kick plates on doors? Does the rear roof have the slight overhang? Are they pretty accurate for what they depict? Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster I believe they called the operation the "Sag Harbor and Scuttle Hole RR," but I don't think it ever got to the construction stage. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] RE: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:08:35 -0800 I must not have had my glasses on when I looked at that photo of Sassafras Falls. The Custom Finishes A-181 antenna supports are correct for the pre-WW2 Falls, Colonial and Harbor sleeper/lounge cars, as well as the Narrows and View observation lounges, but not the post WW2 Pullman sleeper/lounges and sleeper/lounge/observation cars. Sorry about that. I am temporarily at a loss as to how to model the antenna for my NKP Falls car. Bob Kessler -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:19 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/30/03 PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, October 30, 2003 Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/30/03:Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges by Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts by "Benjamin Frank Hom" Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 now available by "Jerry @ Pennsy" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/30/03:Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges From: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:24:04 +0000 I am currently buiding a "Falls" sleeper/lounge and have purchased Custom Finishes part # A-181 - NYC Antenna Set. These have the same appearance as the antenna supports in the photo of Sassafras Falls in "The Official Pullman Library, Vol. 4, PRR" Bob Kessler > PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, October 30, 2003 > > Re: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges > by "Stephen Bartlett" > Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "James L. McDaniel" > Ron Ziel and George Foster > by "Peter Weiglin" > You Gotta See This! > by "Jerry Britton" > Re: [PRR] You Gotta See This! > by "Andrew S. Miller" > Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "Andrew S. Miller" > Water columns > by "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > RE: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > by "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." > Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > by "Jerry Britton" > Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster > by > Sanborn map source > by > Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > by "James L. McDaniel" > Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > by "robert netzlof" > Re: [PRR] Water columns > by "robert netzlof" > Re: [PRR] Water columns > by "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > FGE's FHIX and WHIX > by > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges > From: "Stephen Bartlett" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:04:41 -0800 > > From your description these sound like the antenna supports that came in > the Kasiner O scale kits. They had a center opening, two legs, and were > slightly wider at the bottom. Might they be the same for the HO > versions? Kasiner's HO kits were later sold as OK, made by Herkimer > Tool & Die or some such... > > Steve Bartlett > > Andrew S. Miller wrote: > These are unique fittings and I don't believe anyone makes them :-(( I > have faced the same quandary myself . They were used on all post war > mid-train lounges and observation cars. > > The best stand-in I could muster is the Grant Line Queen posts in the > shortest length. It does not have the hollow underneath forming two > legs, rather it is a solid upside-down "T" shape", but in HO it looks > very good. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "James L. McDaniel" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:15:12 -0500 > > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Ron Ziel and George Foster > From: "Peter Weiglin" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 05:24:35 -0800 > > John Bobsin writes: > > "According to Ron Ziel's "Steel Rails to the Sunrise," (1965) . . ." > > and > > "Also, Ziel reports that ..." > > --which totally overlooks the fact that "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" was not a > solo production by Ziel. The book was co-authored by George H. Foster, whose > contribution in terms of research, writing/editing and publication should never > be overlooked. > > George Foster is, regrettably, no longer around to remind us of this, but it's > necessary to counteract careless references and sloppy citations wherever they > occur. > > Ziel didn't report anything; Ziel and Foster did. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: You Gotta See This! > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:47:46 -0500 > > On a recent 12"=1' excursion, Bob Martin, president of the HO Central > Pennsylvania Railroad where I often operate, was jagging me about N > scale. He (half) jokingly suggested that since I am modeling a > multi-track main that if I spaced the tracks right I could still run HO > scale between the tracks. > > Well, last night Bob and a few other CPRR operators visited the PRR-ER > for the first time. The subject came up, and I happened to have an HO > scale Spectrum business car on loan from Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South > Central Region, another layout I occasionally run on. > > For laughs, I placed it one the outside rails of two tracks. A laugh's > a laugh, but it fit perfectly, totally by chance!!! > > The car rolled quite freely over about six feet of track that I had it > on. And, since the rails are indeed different polarities, you could > actually run a locomotive this way! (Don't know why you'd want to, but > you could!) > > Hey, for Halloween's sake, take a look... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00501/00661_m.jpg > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] You Gotta See This! > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:25:15 -0500 > > This trick was done intentionally many years ago at the Tech Model RR Club > at MIT. Since we had members for four years with diverse model RR > backgrounds and preferences for many scales, one of the freight yards was > designed with irregular spacing between the tracks so that any of the known > gauges from O to TTn3 could be operated and powered on an appropriately > chosen pair of rails. N had not been invented yet. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > On a recent 12"=1' excursion, Bob Martin, president of the HO Central > > Pennsylvania Railroad where I often operate, was jagging me about N > > scale. He (half) jokingly suggested that since I am modeling a > > multi-track main that if I spaced the tracks right I could still run HO > > scale between the tracks. > > > > Well, last night Bob and a few other CPRR operators visited the PRR-ER > > for the first time. The subject came up, and I happened to have an HO > > scale Spectrum business car on loan from Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South > > Central Region, another layout I occasionally run on. > > > > For laughs, I placed it one the outside rails of two tracks. A laugh's > > a laugh, but it fit perfectly, totally by chance!!! > > > > The car rolled quite freely over about six feet of track that I had it > > on. And, since the rails are indeed different polarities, you could > > actually run a locomotive this way! (Don't know why you'd want to, but > > you could!) > > > > Hey, for Halloween's sake, take a look... > > > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00501/00661_m.jpg > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:28:39 -0500 > > You could steal the plastic cupola off a Model Power caboose. For that > matter, with a little detailing (new steps, new railings and ladder, new > underbody detail, trucks and couplers) , The Model Power caboose makes a > fine N6b. I just picked up a few more at a train show for 99 cents each > and will put them through "the treatment". > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Water columns > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:09:48 -0600 > > I just finished putting together 5 water columns for a hopper marshaling > yard I'm constructing on our club layout. I spent about 45 minutes going > through color photos looking for examples of columns and managed to find a > couple that were pretty close to the photographer's lens. > > They look grimy black, as might be expected. > > But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, what color? > I figured I'd spray the base color, then overspray with grimy black and add > some rust. > > Don Harper > Marine Lab > Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:58:35 -0600 > > The MP conversion you speak about might be nice article for the Keystone > Modeler. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:29 AM > To: jlmcdaniel@esva.net > Cc: PRR Talk; PRR-FAX > Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > > > You could steal the plastic cupola off a Model Power caboose. For that > matter, with a little detailing (new steps, new railings and ladder, new > underbody detail, trucks and couplers) , The Model Power caboose makes a > fine N6b. I just picked up a few more at a train show for 99 cents each > and will put them through "the treatment". > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > > I found an old kit from Quality Craft/Gloor Craft for a N6a --fat cupola > > -- which weren't used on Delmarva. Anyone know where to find the tapered > > one to make this a sort of N6b? > > > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, topless in Delmarva > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:48:20 -0500 > > --On Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:10 -0500 "Jerry Britton" > wrote: > > > > Like previous volumes, this one is a "must have", due largely to all of > > the previously unpublished photos it contains. However, like previous > > volumes, it also leaves something to be desired. > > (I see my coining the word "harrumph" has entered the lexicon on > Roberts/Messner, Jerry ;-) > > I know I always look forward to another volume of the harrumph series for > its pithy editorial comments on the EEEE-vile PRR doing the nasty to the > poor, little BeeNo and/or careless little historical errors that set the > discerning reader off his/her fresh fried lobster. And I look forward to > the extensive errata that will no doubt show up on this list (but, > unfortunately, never in print in the railfan or railroad history press). > > My favorite Roberts "best left unsaid" editorial comment: In the first > Harrumph, he soliloquizes on a father-son trip to the Horseshoe in the good > old days. One of Little Charlie's lasting memories of that day was that > the track gang wasn't composed of Black men as it would have been on the > bad ol' racist BeeNo and other southern RRs. That is undoubtedly true. > But what the historically challenged Roberts failed to understand was that > Pennsylvania had its own versions of ethnic minority gang laborers in those > days. In this case those men were probably Italian, or 1st gen. > Italian-Americans, and they were not considered, in the racial landscape of > the time, to be exactly White. Books have been written on the subject > (and, of course a nicely produced video tape of oral histories by those > same track workers on the Curve is available), but, of course sources other > than their own don't seem to interest the author/editorial team of > Harrumph. If you're going to bare your late-20th Century social conscience > in a book about a complex technological system like a railroad, at least do > it intelligently! > > My favorite Harrumph error is captioning the classic lithograph of the > original CVRR bridge at Harrisburg as the Reading's, with the camelback > bridge in the background (you all know it: the one with where the roadway > actually had humps as it followed the arches across the river) as the > CVRR's. Think about how carefully THAT image was looked at before deciding > to use it! Oh, and since it graced the cover of the definitive book on the > CVRR before 1919, I guess we can rule out that the author/editorial team > bother to read the definitive _carefully researched_ history of the CVRR. > They screwed up the sidebar stuff on the East Broad Top, too, but that's > OK, because it was just another narrow gauge feeder, right? And why bother > to read, or even leaf through, _East Broad Top_ by Rainey and Kyper to get > it right? If you slap a keystone on it, it'll sell, right? > > Oh, Pshaw! I'll buy the darned thing for the pictures and maps, anyway. > That will be the series' lasting contribution to the literature on the > Pennsy. And no book is ever perfect, or even the last word on any subject. > At least since Roberts has 'retired', the editorials have faded. I just > hope THIS TIME the author gets right whatever he decides to write about! > There's a first time for everything, right? > > Vagel 'Messner Ignored My Letter, Too' Keller > Pittsburgh > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:00:36 -0500 > > I gave it another "looksie" last evening. The Frederick Branch was > poorly done as well. According to Harrumph, you'd think it had an end > point at Spring Grove. Yes, there is coverage of the paper mill there, > but what about the mile long "gauntlet" of industry in West York where > the PRR shared the RoW with the WM? That would be an awesome subject > for modular modeling -- a la Bill Denton's Kingsbury branch that has > been featured in MR, except it would be PRR!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster > From: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:07:22 -0500 > > Oops. Sorry, my error, of course both authored the book. -- John > Bobsin > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Sanborn map source > From: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:37:32 +0000 > > I came across a source of Sanborn maps with a couple of caveats. This person > will supply Sanborn maps on CD for $1.00 per map and $5.00 handling. If the > order is more than 50 maps he gives a 10% discount and does not charge for > shipping and handling. The only consideration (and it could be one) is that > he is only allowed to sell maps up through the 1927 series. The web page is > www.utahice.com which lists what is available from him by state. The e mail > contact if you know the map designation(s) is seleniteman@comcast.net. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts > From: "James L. McDaniel" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:28:09 -0500 > > So, ...where might I find a Model Power cabin? I live in the boonies > with nary a hobby shop or train meet in sight. > > Jim McDaniel, Delmarva-- not really the boonies but nicely isolated from > traffic and all that > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Triumph VI" - First Look > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:15:20 -0800 (PST) > > --- "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." wrote: > > > But what the historically challenged Roberts failed to understand > > was that > > Pennsylvania had its own versions of ethnic minority gang laborers > > in those > > days. In this case those men were probably Italian, or 1st gen. > > Italian-Americans, and they were not considered, in the racial > > landscape of > > the time, to be exactly White. > > In corroboration: > > Decades ago I read in a then elderly copy of the Ligonier Echo an > account of an accident on the Ligonier Valley Railroad. The account > said something like: Injured in the accident were Mr and Mrs John > Jones of this place, Dr Richard Smith of Latrobe, two strangers, and > three Italians. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:18:44 -0800 (PST) > > --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > > I just finished putting together 5 water columns... > > > They look grimy black, as might be expected. > > > But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, > > what color? > > From 1938 to 1948 I lived about 150' feet away from a water column in > Latrobe, PA. As best I can recall, it was always black. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:52:44 -0600 > > Thanks Bob. Actually, I suspect that everything was black. If Mom and Dad > had to take the black off our wallpaper every year or so, I'm sure > everything else was grimy black also. If you remember the column, you must > remember lights on at noon in Pittsburgh and the Donora smog. I was too > young to remember those things. > > Don Harper > Marine Lab > Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------- > >From: robert netzlof > >To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" , PRR-Talk > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Water columns > >Date: Thu, 30 Oct, 2003, 14:18 > > > > > --- "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > >> I just finished putting together 5 water columns... > > > >> They look grimy black, as might be expected. > > > >> But, does anyone know if they were painted occasionally? If so, > >> what color? > > > > From 1938 to 1948 I lived about 150' feet away from a water column in > > Latrobe, PA. As best I can recall, it was always black. > > > > ===== > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: FGE's FHIX and WHIX > From: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:11:00 EST > > > --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000 > > From: "Ed DeRouin" > > Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases. > > > > Rick and Others: > > > > The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily > > insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that > > a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published > > over twenty years ago. > > > > Ed DeRouin > > Hi Ed, > > You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3. If you can > unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos: > 1. reporting marks > 2. comments on the car > 3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line) > 4. reference location, reference title, and reference page. CBC is the Car > Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia. > 5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture > > Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage > Letcode > FHIX #40001 50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 349 FGE29 > FHIX #40701 steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 > 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56 > FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52 > WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS > Express Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN > WHIX #70007 RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guide to > Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN > WHIX #70453 steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars Vol.3 40 > Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN > WHIX #70665 steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freight Cars > Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67 > WHIX #70704 steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Freight Cars > Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70 > > As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've > listed originated in the Sixties. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/28/03 4:29:44 AM Eastern Standar= > d Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:59:49 -0000
>    From: "Ed DeRouin" <Ed@pixelspublishing.com>
> Subject: FHIX Reporting Marks Was: Re: More on FGE lettering phases.
>
> Rick and Others:
>
> The HI in FHIX and WHIX indicated that the car was more heavily
> insulated. I do not have more information handy, but believe that
> a photo appeared in the softcover freight car books published
> over twenty years ago.
>
> Ed DeRouin

>
> Hi Ed,
>
> You have a good memory -- it's in Classic Freight Cars Vol. 3.  If you=20= > can unscramble the following, you'll find this and some more photos:
> 1. reporting marks
> 2. comments on the car
> 3. year of picture (usually, year of paint job per the weight line)
> 4. reference location, reference title, and reference page.  CBC is the= > Car Builders Cyclopedia; RPC is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia.
> 5. my own homegrown code for the lettering style observed in the picture
>
> Reporting mark Change description Year Refloc Reftitle Refpage Letc= > ode
> FHIX #40001    50t steel ice reefer 1951 CBC 1953 =20= > 349 FGE29
> FHIX #40701     steel plugdoor RS 1961 Classic=20= > Freight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 53 FGE56
> FHIX #41369 RS 1957 CBC 1961 117 FGE52
> WHIX #423, WFIX, WFE car with GNR herald 1954 RP CYC 7 BR and BS Ex= > press Refrigerator Cars 30 FGE52GN
> WHIX #70007   RS steel, plug door 1962 "GN Color Guid= > e to Feight"" And ""Passenger Equipment""" 91 FGE61GN
> WHIX #70453   steel swing door 1968 Classic Freight Cars =20= > Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 FGE61GN
> WHIX #70665   steel swing door rblt JAX 1968 Classic Freigh= > t Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE67
> WHIX #70704   steel swing door rblt JAX 1970 1970 Classic Fr= > eight Cars Vol.3 40 Foot Refrigerator Cars 42 WFE70
>
> As we see, the earliest usage found was 1951, whereas most of the cars I've=20= > listed originated in the Sixties.
>
> FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">Rick Tipton
> Louisville KY
> Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= > /HTML> > > --part1_168.25b904a1.2cd2d864_boundary-- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > End of PRR-Talk Digest > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor/Quality CraftCabin Car Parts From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:34:17 -0600 Jim McDaniel asked: So, ...where might I find a Model Power cabin? I live in the boonies with nary a hobby shop or train meet in sight. Here's one on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3152680740&category=484 Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 now available From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:04:37 -0500 On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 05:30 PM, Martin Harriss wrote: > It apprears that Bowser's B6 is now available (they just updated their > web page this morning.) Yes, Lee English notified dealers this morning that they were packed and ready to ship. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:18:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Ron Ziel and George Foster From: aurora7@juno.com The "Sag Harbor and Scuttle Hole Railroad" never was able to marshall enough financial support to get built. Ziel and Foster each owned ex-BEDT tank locomotives, #12 and #16 respectively. A PRR heavyweight diner was purchased and moved out to the Island, and a NYC wooden hack was also promised. Beyond that, there was no money to do anything. Lots of people volunteered labor and engineering skill, but when it came to purchasing track and ties, nothing was put on the table. At one time, the operation had it's eyes on one or two locomotives from Pennsy's Northumberland collection, while it was still neglected and and stored outdoors. The E6 was especially prized. Ron's and George's relationship became strained over the direction in which their business plans would go. This basically ended the restoration hopes. Ziel continued to travel the world and take countless photos of the final ebbing of steam power from rail service, while George and his wife went into other interests. Foster was a very heavy man and eventually succumbed to a heart attack. He was a fairly young guy, and his passing was a blow to the preservation/historical movement. George had a good bit of business savvy. His mind would have been so important to resolving financial issues faceing museums and otehr preservation groups. Ron Ziel continues to photo-document steam locomotives and write historical material, both factual and fictional. He possesses one of the most astounding collections of negatives and slides of steam locomotives both silent and cold, as well as hot and pulsing. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Antennas on lounge cars Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:24:09 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C39FEC.F0A5C5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At this time I am fabricating new wooden blocks for repairs to the = antenna on the Pine Falls-6 Dbl Bdrm,Lounge car. I can make a drawing of the = individual standoff bracket if anyone is interested and email it with pictures or = put it on file with some site. Suggestions ?? Lynn Heintz ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C39FEC.F0A5C5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
At this time I am fabricating new wooden blocks for = repairs to=20 the antenna on
the Pine Falls-6 Dbl Bdrm,Lounge car. I can make a = drawing of=20 the individual
standoff bracket if anyone is interested and email = it with=20 pictures or put it on
file with some=20 site.           &n= bsp;=20  Suggestions ??
 
Lynn Heintz

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C39FEC.F0A5C5C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: [PRR] Kato PRR F units Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:20:31 -0500 Jerry; I'll answer what I can now and will check on the rest: What were the road numbers? I'll check Are these Phase II "Early" units? (full chicken wire, high fans) Yes Are they pretty accurate for what they depict? I would say so, adding GMM antennas helps They did F7's. A unit was part number 176-094 and the B unit was part number 176-103. Again, what were the road numbers? I'll check What phase are they? What spotting features do they have? Not enough of an expert to say, but they have the horizontal (Faar?) grills, shorter, wider fans than the F3s. Number boards streamlined or 45-degree? 45 degree Stainless kick plates on doors? yes Does the rear roof have the slight overhang? yes Are they pretty accurate for what they depict? Again yes (IMHO), best currently Fs avail in N, but now very hard to find. I was lucky enough to collect almost a dozen As and Bs all together. Still run well. Tricky to install DCC though. John Drye ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:36:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges Bob, et al, For postwar cars in HO scale, Utah Pacific makes the single post antenna masts either in brass, Walther's catalog #755-91 or in plastic, #755-92. Kind regards, Dennis Sautters Laser Horizons In a message dated 10/31/03 4:20:30 PM, robertke@comcast.net writes: << I must not have had my glasses on when I looked at that photo of Sassafras Falls. The Custom Finishes A-181 antenna supports are correct for the pre-WW2 Falls, Colonial and Harbor sleeper/lounge cars, as well as the Narrows and View observation lounges, but not the post WW2 Pullman sleeper/lounges and sleeper/lounge/observation cars. Sorry about that. I am temporarily at a loss as to how to model the antenna for my NKP Falls car. Bob Kessler >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:47:06 -0400 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: [PRR] circus train .... Hello list , Does any one know if the Ringling Circus Train is in Pittsburgh yet ? I was in the strip yesterday around THE PRR Station and it was no were in sight . I also road by the Chateau Street Yard , were it is usually stored after unloading at the station , but no luck there either . Thanks , Mike Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@bigplanet.com E-bay : iron*mah ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:40:24 -0400 Subject: Centipedes (was Re: [PRR] HO MP-54 conversion) From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 10:29 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > I certainly plan on presenting MP54s to the manufacturers at the forum=20= > at > Cocoa Beach (along with centipedes). Who knows, maybe Walthers would=20= > consider > it... > > We'll need to get the SAL guys on board for the Centipedes, as well as=20= > that > vast untapped Mexican market - Viva El Ciempi=E9s! ;-) And, above all else, N scale!!! ;-) Actually, knowing the demand for these in N scale will be low, I'll pay=20= for brass...Key? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:05:56 -0400 From: davep Subject: Consistency Re: [PRR] Dearth of E-44 plans > But, Circular 109-M lists the "E-44" with the dash similar to a diesel! > All of the other electrics are dash less, like steam engines but not the > E-44! Gotta love the Pennsy's consistency! 'Consistency is the foolish Hob Goblin of ....' Thoreau. 8)>> (Read Walden Pond: Thoreau was a railfan, watched The Fitchburg from his cabin at Walden...) Consistency only applies at any one point in time. Ferinstance, depending on the date of PRR docs, one encounters: Electric Engine Electric Locomotive Electric Motor for the same piece/style of equipment... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!