RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840

From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Riverfront photos Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:14:11 -0400 Hi All, I was on the lunchtime Spirit Of Philadelphia cruise on the Delaware River on Saturday for my first wedding anniversary. In spite for this fact, I still managed to get outside a few times to take about 80 digital photos without getting served with divorce papers of the "scenic" Philadelphia waterfront. The cruise was from Penns Landing south to the Navy yard and return. This included a view of the former PRR Ore faculty not seen very often. I had my zoom lens on for many of them that is equal to 300mm. Here are a few photos: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/dumper.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/unitedstates.jpg I took photos of pretty much everything "old and rusty" as my wife put it. I got all of the ships in the river including the Battleship New Jersey. I will offer you a copy of these photos for personal use only for the Princely sum or $6.00 mailed. You may see a few photos of my wife enjoying her Margarita at 11:30 AM, but that is worth the 6 bucks right there! Please reply to billlane@comcast.net with your mailing address if you are interested. My address is: Bill Lane Jr. 525 Warwick Rd. Deptford NJ 08096 Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:27:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman Diaphrams --part1_105.357d6d6c.2c84a348_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to replace the stock diaphragms on the Walthers P-S 4-4-2 and 6-6-4 sleepers with a better looking, operating diaphragm. What diaphragm(s), not of the full width type, are available that would match the prototype. The closest I have seen are the Amer. Limited 9600 made for the Budd cars. While on this subject, did Pullman, Budd, AC&F make the diaphragms in-house or were they acquired from a vendor? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_105.357d6d6c.2c84a348_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to replace the stock diaphra= gms on the Walthers P-S 4-4-2 and 6-6-4 sleepers with a better looking, oper= ating diaphragm. What diaphragm(s), not of the full width type, are av= ailable that would match the prototype. The closest I have seen are th= e Amer. Limited 9600 made for the Budd cars.

While on this subject, did Pullman, Budd, AC&F make the dia= phragms in-house or were they acquired from a vendor?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_105.357d6d6c.2c84a348_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:14:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Philadelphia Riverfront photos Hi All, I was on the lunchtime Spirit Of Philadelphia cruise on the Delaware River on Saturday for my first wedding anniversary. In spite for this fact, I still managed to get outside a few times to take about 80 digital photos without getting served with divorce papers of the "scenic" Philadelphia waterfront. The cruise was from Penns Landing south to the Navy yard and return. This included a view of the former PRR Ore faculty not seen very often. I had my zoom lens on for many of them that is equal to 300mm. Here are a few photos: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/dumper.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/unitedstates.jpg I took photos of pretty much everything "old and rusty" as my wife put it. I got all of the ships in the river including the Battleship New Jersey. I will offer you a copy of these photos for personal use only for the Princely sum or $6.00 mailed. You may see a few photos of my wife enjoying her Margarita at 11:30 AM, but that is worth the 6 bucks right there! Please reply to billlane@comcast.net with your mailing address if you are interested. My address is: Bill Lane Jr. 525 Warwick Rd. Deptford NJ 08096 Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 HI List... Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is apreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:58:28 -0700 John, These are now made by Gloor Craft and if I remember correctly were modeled after Jacks Tower. Should still be available...(mine is an old Quality Craft kit) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:51:28 -0400 John Frantz wrote: > Mike, > > If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, > Quality Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower > design in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 > lever interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any > others off hand. > > John > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:13:56 -0400 Dave, Did you check the PRR Steram locomotive number list? It is possible that steam locomotives numbered 4801-4814 and 4816-4839 were still on the roster, but to be retired shortly. Since PRR steam numbers skipped all over the place, it is quite possible. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:57 PM Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 > HI List... > > Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" > instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were > :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is > apreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:38:08 -0400 This is interesting. Does anyone know if the fact that this soldering gun normally operates on 220v vice our 110v house hold current change how this works? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter > Found this URL on the web for converting an electric soldering iron into a > hot wire foam cutter. There are also a couple of videos of it in action. > This should help me cut a four track piece of foam with banks fairly easily > for my PRR main (I think). > > http://club.cycom.co.uk/hotwire/Hot_wire_cutter_for_polystyrene_foam.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:49:47 -0400 Just a guess from looking at who built what when and with whose electrical equipment. Baldwin built 4800 @ Eddystone with Westinghouse electrical equipment. On the first order for 57, it looks like production (PRR assigned road numbers) was divided up as follows 4801 to 4814 built at GE. 4815 to 4839 built at Baldwin, by Baldwin, PRR and with either Westinghouse (20) or GE (5) electrical equipment. 4840 to 4857 built at Altoona, again with either or... All other units assembled @ Altoona GSC supplied all the frames. Of the total units produce Westinghouse supplied the electrical equipment for 74 and GE supplied for 65 Further, looking at the electrical supplier for the 4815, 4840, 4841 and 4842, all equipment was supplied by Westinghouse. It may be that GE had to take some additional time to ramp up for manufacturing and production of the units. Just another guess - since Altoona is closest to GSC, maybe they received their frames first. It would be interesting to see the casting dates. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:57 PM To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 HI List... Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is apreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson Tracking #: 91D0F10953DE974CBC6FE6A29614647B3B573BDC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:49:47 -0400 Just a guess from looking at who built what when and with whose electrical equipment. Baldwin built 4800 @ Eddystone with Westinghouse electrical equipment. On the first order for 57, it looks like production (PRR assigned road numbers) was divided up as follows 4801 to 4814 built at GE. 4815 to 4839 built at Baldwin, by Baldwin, PRR and with either Westinghouse (20) or GE (5) electrical equipment. 4840 to 4857 built at Altoona, again with either or... All other units assembled @ Altoona GSC supplied all the frames. Of the total units produce Westinghouse supplied the electrical equipment for 74 and GE supplied for 65 Further, looking at the electrical supplier for the 4815, 4840, 4841 and 4842, all equipment was supplied by Westinghouse. It may be that GE had to take some additional time to ramp up for manufacturing and production of the units. Just another guess - since Altoona is closest to GSC, maybe they received their frames first. It would be interesting to see the casting dates. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:57 PM To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 HI List... Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is apreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson Tracking #: 91D0F10953DE974CBC6FE6A29614647B3B573BDC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:37:51 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37157.67C3814C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2luY2UgSSBoYXZlIHNldmVyYWwgcGhvdG9zIG9mIHRoZSA0ODAwIHRha2VuIGF0IEVyaWUsIEkg YW0gcHJldHR5IHN1cmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgY2FyYm9keSB3YXMgYnVpbHQgYXQgQmFsZHdpbiBhbmQg ZWxlY3RyaWNhbCBnZWFyIHdhcyBhcHBsaWVkIGJ5IEdFIGF0IEVyaWUuDQogDQpJIGtub3cgZnJv bSB0YWxraW5nIHRvIHRoZSBvbGQgdGltZXJzIGluIEVyaWUgdGhhdCB0aGV5IHJvdXRpbmVseSBw cm9kdWNlZCBjb21wb25lbnRzIGF0IHRoZWlyIHBsYW50IHN1Y2ggYXMgY29udGFjdG9ycyBhbmQg YXBwbGllZCBXZXN0aW5naG91c2UgbmFtZXBsYXRlcyBhbmQgc2hpcHBlZCB0aGVtIHRvIFdlc3Rp bmdob3VzZS4gIFdlc3Rpbmdob3VzZSBkaWQgdGhlIHNhbWUgZm9yIEdFIG9uIG90aGVyIGNvbXBv bmVudHMuICBUaGlzIHdhcyBpbiB0aGUgZGF5cyBiZWZvcmUgR0UgYW5kIFcgYmVjYW1lIGVtYnJv aWxlZCBpbiBhbnRpLXRydXN0IGFuZCBwcmljZSBmaXhpbmcgc2NhbmRhbHMgd2l0aCB0aGUgZ3V2 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----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:50:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37137.9DEB7660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all who responded. I think I have located one to buy. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37137.9DEB7660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks to all who responded. I think I = have located=20 one to buy.

Mike Morrow

PRRT&HS = #6703

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37137.9DEB7660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:08:05 +0000 John Frantz wrote: Close to the end of the [westbound freight train going through Altoona], but coupled on both sides to a freight car is an NKP class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know anything else besides what I told you. Does anybody have a notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the middle of a freight train? We do know that empty express boxcars and reefers were often routed home in freight trains (this occurred more often eastbound than westbound). From that standpoint, routing an empty baggage car in a freight makes sense (though this is the first documented instance that I've seen). However, it seems odd that there wasn't enough westbound express to warrant sending the car back to the NKP loaded. Perhaps the car was being routed home for repairs, or maybe some clerk in Sunnyside or Philadelphia was in a hurry to get the car off line to minimize per diem. Any other ideas? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:31:30 +0000 Could be being returned for maintenance and was out of service also. NB > Gents, > > As I continue to go through this slide collection i found > a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, > 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght > train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the > train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP > class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door > are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know > anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a > notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the > middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would > be appreciated. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:05:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Hirsimaki and Sweetland Books? From: Jerry Britton Eric Hirsimaki, author of the "Black Gold, Black Diamond" series on Pennsy dieselization, has put out two volumes of a planned five. It's been three (or four?) years since volume two came out. Anyone hear anything on volume three? The publisher of the first two was Mileposts Publishing, who isn't online. And Dave Sweetland put out three volumes under the "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial" title from Four Ways West. Anyone know if further volumes are planned? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:18:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37143.E47DE7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine = Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over = to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be at = least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I couldn't make out what = type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the tuscan = red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very noticeable. = I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into an accident. On = my return trip, about two hours later, they were gone, at least from my = vantage point. Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting? This sure = brought back some good memories. I remember Penn Coach Yards when there = was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember going to the Zoo to watch = PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at the = animals. Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37143.E47DE7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, I was driving down the = Schuylkill=20 Expressway onto the Vine Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as = usual, my=20 eyes wandered over to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, = what=20 appeared to be at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I = couldn't=20 make out what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the = letterboard, the=20 tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very=20 noticeable. I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting = into an=20 accident. On my return trip, about two hours later, they were = gone, at=20 least from my vantage point.

Does anyone have information pertaining = to this=20 sighting? This sure brought back some good memories. I = remember Penn=20 Coach Yards when there was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember = going=20 to the Zoo to watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was = busy=20 looking at the animals.

Larry

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37143.E47DE7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:26:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine=20= > Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over=20= > to 30th St. Station.=A0 I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be=20= > at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars.=A0 I couldn't make out=20= > what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the=20= > tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very=20 > noticeable.=A0 I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into=20= > an accident.=A0 On my return trip, about two hours later, they were=20 > gone, at least from my vantage point. > =A0 > Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting?=A0 This sure=20= > brought back some good memories.=A0 I remember Penn Coach Yards when=20= > there was nothing but tuscan red!=A0 I also remember going to the Zoo = to=20 > watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at=20= > the animals. Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:33:30 -0700 > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:10 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/31/03 > > > PRR-Talk Digest - Sunday, August 31, 2003 > > P70-FAR > by "Walter Prusick" > Re: [PRR] P70-FAR > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: P70-FAR > From: "Walter Prusick" > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:40:55 -0400 > > Gentlemen, > Two questions concerning the above model: > 1) the floor and one side are slightly warped, what is the safest > or surest > method of straightening these long pieces? > 2) Where may I find underbody equirment placement drawings? I possess both > "Passanger Equipment of the PRR: Coaches (Liljestrand & Sweetland) and > "Pennsy HW Passanger (NJ International) but neither have the info > I desire? > > Thanks in advance > Walt Prusick > > > I have never seen underbody drawings for PRR P70 cars. A reasonably good representation of the P70FAR underbody can be arrived at through careful analysis of available photos and guesses as to where components not seen would have to be. This approach works in NMRA modeling contests for prototype compliance. Pennsy HW Passenger (NJ International) has an excellent picture of one side of the P70FAR underbody on p.54, showing , from left to right between the trucks: a cross-bearer, an air conditioning condenser, similar to the "Safety" dry condenser type, a pressurized water tank, two battery charging connectors, a battery box with a curved outer panel, a brake system air tank and a second cross-bearer. Behind the brake air tank, mounted below the center sill there should be a generator connected to the inner truck axle with a Spicer drive. Page 28 of Passenger Equipment of the PRR: Coaches (Liljestrand & Sweetland)has a reasonably clear shot of the other side. In the shadows between the cross-bearer and two more battery charging receptacles most likely lurking a brake valve and a brake cylinder, near the center of the car is a second curved outer panel battery box, adjacent is a second pressurized water tank, and finally, hiding in the shadows between the water tank the crossbeareris, most likely a Spicer direct drive compressor for the air conditioning system. Finding all the parts to detail the underbody of a PRR coach is a scavenger hunt. I haven't seen an A/C condenser unit exactly like the one in the photo. The one in the P70FAR kit is similar, one of the A/C condensers in Train Station Products Passenger Car Detail kit #460 is closer, but still not exact. The water tanks are very similar to New England Rail Service #230 Pullman Pressurized Water Tank (containing two tanks). The battery changing receptacles are Cal Scale #354. The curved panel battery boxes were made in the 1980's by Limited Editions, #338 streamlined Battery Box Cover. Finding these may be a challenge. They could be scratch built by filing or sanding the curve into a piece of 0.020" styrene and cementing that to a flat piece of 0.020" styrene using dimensions from the drawing in your Pennsy HW Passenger book. The battery box cover would need to be backed up with a block of wood or styrene. The center beam in the Eastern Car kits is a poor representation of the PRR center-beam. Apply Evergreen Scale Models #266 3/16" channel styrene, open side out to either side of the kit center beam. The channels can added in sections between cross-bearers, and between the cross-bearers and the draft gear boxes. The truck mounting may have to be fudged. Try filling the space between the channels with strip styrene and drilling the screw hole down from the top side of the floor. If the car rides too high, file of the king pin area until coupler height is right and the roof is 13'-6" scale above the rails. In a prior posting you mentioned that you had the wrong tucks in your kit. Eastern makes 2D-P5 trucks, their part #9001. Bob Kessler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:36:02 -0400 Next "spin": Train 98 and then 97 on September 13 (Saturday) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine > Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over > to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be > at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I couldn't make out > what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the > tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very > noticeable. I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into > an accident. On my return trip, about two hours later, they were > gone, at least from my vantage point. > > Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting? This sure > brought back some good memories. I remember Penn Coach Yards when > there was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember going to the Zoo to > watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at > the animals. Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter --- Kris Kollar wrote: > This is interesting. Does anyone know if the fact that this > soldering gun > normally operates on 220v vice our 110v house hold current change > how this > works? I would suspect not. Soldering guns have a transformer built into the body, to transform 115 (or 220) volts to a few volts at high current to heat the tip. Assuming the original tip on each of a 115v and a 220v gun had the same resistance, replacing either tip with the same alternative tip would produce the same result. In other words, the standard tip would be very similar on both guns, so the behavior of an alternative tip would be about the same. The two guns would have different transformnrs to accomodate the differing input supply voltages. But then, I'm not an electrical engineer. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:48:48 +0000 Larry Reynolds wrote: "I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. <> On my return trip, about two hours later, they were gone, at least from my vantage point. Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting?" Jerry Britton added: "Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin?" Sure did - I spotted them both in Penn Coach from Amtrak 54 Saturday morning at 0921 on my way to New York, and spotted them again at the bumper in Union Station when I returned to DC on Amtrak 199 Saturday evening at 1830. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:51:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Freedom Train Station to Open in September From: Jerry Britton [From a press release...] On September 20th, the New Freedom Train Station will again open it's doors to visitors from near and far. After years of neglect, the restored station will again be a hub of activity. Located along the Heritage Rail Trail County Park, it will serve as the southern gateway to the 21-mile-long trail. In its second life, the station will offer a museum, public restrooms and space to accommodate a vendor. The station was restored to its 1940 appearance. [PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter member Bill Knepper spearheaded the restoration project. Unfortunately, Bill passed away this past January.] During its railroad life, the station hosted the famous and the common. For example, in 1939, King George VI's royal train passed through during his state visit. The museum will give visitors a glimpse at life when the railroad served as the cell phone, CNN, UPS delivery, automobile, school bus and community center. The museum is centered on a life-size depiction of a K-4 steam locomotive, letting visitors learn about the engines, track workers, the history of the Northern Central Railroad [Railway], and the town of New Freedom. The restored freight scales explore the railroad's effect on local industries while an authentic baggage cart affords a look at travel near and far. While focusing on New Freedom and the Northern Central Railroad, the museum displays combine to give the visitor an engaging look into the history of this small town and surrounding community, which easily could be the history of any small town in Pennsylvania when railroad was king. ### Festivities run noon through 5 p.m., with formal ceremonies from 2:30-3:30. As part of the ceremony, the Northern Central Chapter will be dedicating a plaque in memory of Bill Knepper and his tireless efforts to resurrect the station. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:01:17 -0400 Jerry: Please elaborate on these cars. What types, etc. Thanks, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine > Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over > to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be > at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I couldn't make out > what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the > tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very > noticeable. I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into > an accident. On my return trip, about two hours later, they were > gone, at least from my vantage point. > > Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting? This sure > brought back some good memories. I remember Penn Coach Yards when > there was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember going to the Zoo to > watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at > the animals. Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:10:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 12:01 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > Please elaborate on these cars. What types, etc. One is the PRR business car #120, which Bennett has been running in excursion service for years. You can see many photos I have taken of the car by going to my photo archive and searching on Keyword "PRR 120" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ The second car recently joined the fleet. It's the mid-train lounge "Warrior Ridge" that has been refinished in Pennsy Tuscan. I don't know its background. Perhaps Bennett can elaborate. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:15:34 -0400 You saw something else in Washington DC because they never left Philadelphia. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars > Larry Reynolds wrote: > "I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be at least one, possibly two > PRR passenger cars. <> On my return trip, about two hours later, they > were gone, at least from my vantage point. Does anyone have information > pertaining to this sighting?" > > Jerry Britton added: > "Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin?" > > Sure did - I spotted them both in Penn Coach from Amtrak 54 Saturday morning > at 0921 on my way to New York, and spotted them again at the bumper in Union > Station when I returned to DC on Amtrak 199 Saturday evening at 1830. > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:34:59 -0400 Since this was in 1967 by your records, the car by then was owned by N&W. It may have been on its way to either what was ex-N&W proper or ex-Wabash lines, since NKP passenger service ceased in 1965. Paul in Geneva, Ohio Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR From: Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:31:30 +0000 Could be being returned for maintenance and was out of service also. NB > Gents, > > As I continue to go through this slide collection i found > a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, > 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght > train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the > train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP > class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door > are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know > anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a > notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the > middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would > be appreciated. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:34:14 -0400 Hi all, The Jacks Tower kit is now manufactured by Gloor Craft - if you can find one. I've had two on order for about two years at the local hobby shop. Watch at shows like Timonium as I did pick up one last year there. There is also a PRR brick style Tower made by TCS Models. This is a resin kit and, although I haven't built mine yet, I have seen one built up and it looks very nice. It's their kit #30207 and cost around $37. It is probably not a first time resin kit to build but if you have put together a Westerfield or Sunshine kit, you should have no trouble with this one. Bud- John Franz wrote: > Mike, > > If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, Quality > Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower design > in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 lever > interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any others > off hand. > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:37:42 +0000 Bennett Levin wrote: You saw something else in Washington DC because they never left Philadelphia. Bennett, thanks. I'll have to go back to Union Station and check again. Must have been the weekend of Pennsy varnish! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:56:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Bud wrote: >There is also a PRR brick style Tower made by TCS Models. This is a resin >kit and, although I haven't built mine yet, I have seen one built up and it >looks very nice. It's their kit #30207 and cost around $37. It is probably >not a first time resin kit to build but if you have put together a >Westerfield or Sunshine kit, you should have no trouble with this one. Tell me about this TCS kit! What is their contact info? What tower is the model of? No web presence that I could find. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:12:31 -0500 There was a vendor at the PRRT&HS national convention that had several towers for sale. His prices were very reasonable given the fact that the towers were built-up. I don't recall seeing his table at the last convention, however. -----Original Message----- From: Bud Kaiser [mailto:bkaiser@voicenet.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 2:34 PM To: PRRTalk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Hi all, The Jacks Tower kit is now manufactured by Gloor Craft - if you can find one. I've had two on order for about two years at the local hobby shop. Watch at shows like Timonium as I did pick up one last year there. There is also a PRR brick style Tower made by TCS Models. This is a resin kit and, although I haven't built mine yet, I have seen one built up and it looks very nice. It's their kit #30207 and cost around $37. It is probably not a first time resin kit to build but if you have put together a Westerfield or Sunshine kit, you should have no trouble with this one. Bud- John Franz wrote: > Mike, > > If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, Quality > Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower design > in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 lever > interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any others > off hand. > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:27:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR --part1_d0.3e442434.2c867354_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Baggage cars were often used for excess length loads or loads not suited for box car shipment. When in freights, they were usually handled just before the hack (sorry, cabin car). In to the early 70's the theater companies would ship the backdrop curtains and stage props in these cars when moving between cities. They prefered the cars with end doors for their long, delicate curtains. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_d0.3e442434.2c867354_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Baggage cars were often used for excess length=20= loads or loads not suited for box car shipment. When in freights, they= were usually handled just before the hack (sorry, cabin car). In to t= he early 70's the theater companies would ship the backdrop curtains and sta= ge props in these cars when moving between cities. They prefered the c= ars with end doors for their long, delicate curtains.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_d0.3e442434.2c867354_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:54:49 -0500 > I have never seen underbody drawings for PRR P70 cars. I couldn't find my copy in a million years, but if anyone can scare up a copy of a Model Railroader of 1949-51 era that had the plans of a B70 and a P70, that might have had underbody details. Bob (yes, I read it as a kid and bought a copy at a swap meet later) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:20:29 -0400 Bob, Issue you are thinking about is October, 1951. It has side and end views only. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Bob Zoeller To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail > >> I have never seen underbody drawings for PRR P70 cars. > >I couldn't find my copy in a million years, but if anyone can scare up a >copy of a Model Railroader of 1949-51 era that had the plans of a B70 and a >P70, that might have had underbody details. > >Bob (yes, I read it as a kid and bought a copy at a swap meet later) Zoeller > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: [PRR] PRR brick Tower was: Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:44:46 -0400 TCS Models,The Car Shop, is owned by Dave Lawler and is located in Avon Lake Ohio. His phone number is 440-930-2096. You can also reach him at davelawler@attbi.com . The kit tower is modeled after the brick tower that is shown on page 15 of Jeff Scherb's book, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World. I have talked to Dave Lawler and he is most cooperative in answering any questions about the product. He advertised in MR about a year ago. Bud > Bruce wrote: Tell me about this TCS kit! What is their contact info? What tower is the model of? No web presence that I could find. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:24:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR --part1_f4.3053c82b.2c869cc7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/2003 6:33:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > Baggage cars were often used for excess length loads or loads not suited > for box car shipment. When in freights, they were usually handled just before > the hack (sorry, cabin car). In to the early 70's the theater companies > would ship the backdrop curtains and stage props in these cars when moving > between cities. They prefered the cars with end doors for their long, delicate > curtains. > Another cargo which was shipped in theatre cars was racing shells. George Pocock in Seattle would ship his cedar-skinned shells East to the team track at Princeton University: the location had the advantage of being sort of "in the middle" of the traditional rowing schools, so that pickup would be made easier, plus it had a bit of security by being on the campus, next to the powerhouse, which was staffed 24/7. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_f4.3053c82b.2c869cc7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/2/20= 03 6:33:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes:

Baggage cars were often use= d for excess length loads or loads not suited for box car shipment. Wh= en in freights, they were usually handled just before the hack (sorry, cabin= car). In to the early 70's the theater companies would ship the backd= rop curtains and stage props in these cars when moving between cities. = ;They prefered the cars with end doors for their long, delicate curtains.

Another cargo which was shipped in theatre cars was racing shells. Georg= e
Pocock in Seattle would ship his cedar-skinned shells East to the team t= rack at Princeton University: the location had the advantage of being sort o= f "in the middle"
of the traditional rowing schools, so that pickup would be made easier,=20= plus it
had a bit of security by being on the campus, next to the powerhouse, wh= ich was staffed 24/7.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_f4.3053c82b.2c869cc7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:17:19 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail All this talk and questions got me to digging. Through the work archives and I found my copy of a PRR 213B. And what you ask is a PRR 213B, well it is an "Air Conditioning Systems for Passenger Trains" Instruction Manual for employees "that are in any way connected with the operation of air-conditioning systems...." Wow! Anyhow this is a Jan. 1945 ed. and contains a list of all air-conditioned cars and ice or mech. AC information. Each car is indexed to a figure of the AC control panel and there are instructions for operating the AC. There are about 50 figures for describing the control panels. In the back of the book are 26 diagrams of AC systems, both ice and mechanical. These show basic air duct, ice ac plumbing, and mechanical ac piping diagrams. Knowing a cars class will not necessarily allow you to determine the underbody equipment. In this book there is a diagram of P70GSR class #4310 to 4359. Cars 4310 to 4323 & 4334 to 4359 have General Electric 20KW generators and controls. Cars 4324 to 4333 have Safety Car 20KW generators and controls. These cars (4310-4359)have either Frigidaire with Delco motor or G.E. with a G.E. motor mechanical AC units; these unit are throughly mixed by car number. You need pictures of both sides of the same car to be truly accurate. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] NKP baggage on PRR Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:54:58 -0400 Gents, As I continue to go through this slide collection i found a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would be appreciated. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Who built the 4800? Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:10:00 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C371AF.B783CEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay (Bill it=E2=80=99s all because of you) and I just had to =E2=80=93 = further reading has uncovered the following =E2=80=93 4899 assembled 8/26/1934 @ GE (SN 11646) or maybe @ Baldwin (SN 61816) = and Westinghouse or GE electrical gear =E2=80=93 maybe. =20 Research Material: Karl Zimmermann in Quadrant Press Review 6 =E2=80=9CThe Remarkable = GG1=E2=80=9D lists the builder as Baldwin with Westinghouse gear=20 =20 Frederick Westing, Mike Bezilla and Roger L. Keyser in the PRT&HS = =E2=80=9CThe Pennsy=E2=80=99s P5 Electrics=E2=80=9D list the builder as = GE and gear by Baldwin/Westinghouse =20 Paul Carleton=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CUnder Pennsy Wires=E2=80=9D has a = picture of 4899 in primer at Baldwin and with a photo (looks like a = builders photo to me) of the 4899 in its first paint scheme across the = mainline from the Eddystone office building =E2=80=93 see page 104 =20 Pennsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and = Tenders June 2, 1952 =E2=80=93 superseding (same name) No 109-j, dated = May 15th, 1948 says =E2=80=93 Electrical Gear by GE =E2=80=93 it does = not list the builder. =20 William D. Edson=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CKeystone Steam & Electric=E2=80=9D = lists the builder as GE with GE electrical equipment. =20 Or just read Bill=E2=80=99s comments on =E2=80=9CThe GG1=E2=80=9D in his = book =E2=80=9CPennsy Electric Years=E2=80=9D on page 24 =20 So I guess it=E2=80=99s now all cleared up =E2=80=93 Baldwin, GE, PRR & = Westinghouse built the 4899(4800) @ Eddystone, Erie, Altoona and or = Pittsburg (well not really Pittsburg), with electrical gear by GE and or = Westinghouse =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s the picture in Paul = Carleton=E2=80=99s book that really has me in knots. It=E2=80=99s late, I=E2=80=99m done, thanks Bill! I think it=E2=80=99s safe to say that it was built in Pennsylvania! =20 =20 Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. =20 Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone =20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill = Volkmer Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:38 AM To: Wayne S. Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 =20 Since I have several photos of the 4800 taken at Erie, I am pretty sure = that the carbody was built at Baldwin and electrical gear was applied by = GE at Erie. =20 I know from talking to the old timers in Erie that they routinely = produced components at their plant such as contactors and applied = Westinghouse nameplates and shipped them to Westinghouse. Westinghouse = did the same for GE on other components. This was in the days before GE = and W became embroiled in anti-trust and price fixing scandals with the = guv-ment. =20 WDV =20 Tracking #: DA9141F521EE7B429D057B5CC278A513ED6DBDBB ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C371AF.B783CEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840

Ok= ay (Bill it=E2=80=99s all because of you) and I just had to =E2=80=93 further = reading has uncovered the following =E2=80=93

48= 99 assembled 8/26/1934 @ GE (SN 11646) or maybe @ Baldwin (SN 61816) and Westinghouse = or GE electrical gear =E2=80=93 maybe.

Re= search Material:

Ka= rl Zimmermann in Quadrant Press Review 6 =E2=80=9CThe Remarkable = GG1=E2=80=9D lists the builder as Baldwin with Westinghouse gear

Fr= ederick Westing, Mike Bezilla and Roger L. Keyser in the PRT&HS =E2=80=9CThe = Pennsy=E2=80=99s P5 Electrics=E2=80=9D list the builder as GE and gear by = Baldwin/Westinghouse

Pa= ul Carleton=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CUnder Pennsy Wires=E2=80=9D has a picture of = 4899 in primer at Baldwin and with a photo (looks like a builders photo to me) of the 4899 in its first = paint scheme across the mainline from the Eddystone office building =E2=80=93 = see page 104

Pe= nnsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June = 2, 1952 =E2=80=93 superseding (same name) No 109-j, dated May 15^th, = 1948 says =E2=80=93 Electrical Gear by GE =E2=80=93 it does not list the = builder.

Wi= lliam D. Edson=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CKeystone Steam & Electric=E2=80=9D lists = the builder as GE with GE electrical equipment.

Or= just read Bill=E2=80=99s comments on =E2=80=9CThe GG1=E2=80=9D in his book = =E2=80=9CPennsy Electric Years=E2=80=9D on page 24

So= I guess it=E2=80=99s now all cleared up =E2=80=93 Baldwin, GE, PRR & = Westinghouse built the 4899(4800) @ Eddystone, Erie, Altoona and or Pittsburg (well not really Pittsburg), with electrical gear by GE and or Westinghouse =E2=80=93 = it=E2=80=99s the picture in Paul Carleton=E2=80=99s book that really has me in = knots.

It= =E2=80=99s late, I=E2=80=99m done, thanks Bill!

I = think it=E2=80=99s safe to say that it was built in = Pennsylvania!

Cos

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

Small = business IT services.

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

<= span class=3DEmailStyle18>

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Bill Volkmer
Sent: Tuesday, September = 02, 2003 9:38 AM
To: Wayne S. Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840

Since I have several photos of the 4800 taken at Erie, I am pretty sure that the = carbody was built at Baldwin and electrical gear was applied by GE at = Erie.<= /p>

<= /p>

I = know from talking to the old timers in Erie that they routinely produced = components at their plant such as contactors and applied Westinghouse nameplates and = shipped them to Westinghouse. Westinghouse did the same for GE on other components. This was in the days before GE and W became embroiled = in anti-trust and price fixing scandals with the = guv-ment.<= /p>

<= /p>

WDV<= /p>

<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C371AF.B783CEB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New Freedom Train Station to Open in September Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:11:47 -0400 As a brief addendum to Jerry's press release. I am happy to announce that for my Eagle project, I built one of the railroad displays for the museum. My display is an interactive trivia board focusing on the termoinology that was used in railroading. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:22:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton PSA... For those of you clamoring for kits, Red Caboose had been taking reservations for ready-to-run dreadnaught end Circle Keystone X29's. They are due in soon. They ran enough that they actually have some unbuilt kits in stock. They are very limited in number. If you are interested, see your Red Caboose dealer while they are still available. Also, the long-delayed dreadnaught end ready-to-run "Merchandise Service" X29's are finally out. This is a nicely weighted car..I actually got one for myself despite being an N scale modeler! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia aerial images Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:30:26 +0000 I just found this URL for the U. of Penn Libarary that has some very large satellite photos of Phildelphia availablewww.library.upenn.edu/census/ images/phil1940.b.gif Philadelphia NE has N. Phl. Station and over half of the Chestnut Hill Branch Philadelphia SE has Greenwich yard Germantown SE has Fairhill yard and the Oxford Branch Frankford SW has Frankford Juction and a good portion of the Mainline in that area. All the Reading lines are clearly visible also. there is a good view of Wayne Juction in one of the Germantown pictures. They took about a minute and a half to download with DSL so they are quite extenisive files that are much larger than terraserver so there isn't nearly as much cutting and pasting of files to view the area. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New Freedom Train Station to Open in September Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:09:43 -0400 As a brief addendum to Jerry's press release. I am happy to announce that for my Eagle project, I built one of the railroad displays for the museum. My display is an interactive trivia board focusing on the termoinology that was used in railroading. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:46:33 -0400 Ray, I can see a hint of a number peeking through the dust of ages on the left side of the car. I'll probabkly project the slide later this week to see if I can get an exact number. Until then, from what i know its a class MP baggage car. It has two large baggage doors and then a regular sized door on the left end of the car. I don't know how much that would help for now. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Ray Wrote: 1967 is late for any NKP baggage cars to have survived the purges of the N&W takeover in 1964. Do you know the number of the car? It may be one of the surviving baggage cars now in museums in Ohio, Indiana or Illinois. Ray Breyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:14:51 -0400 For your information here are some photos and nformation on the Warrior Ridge as well as the PRR 120 http://www.aaprco.com/cgi-bin/cardisplay.pl?warrior-ridge:name http://www.aaprco.com/cgi-bin/cardisplay.pl?prr120:name I hope it helps! Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars > On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 12:01 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > Please elaborate on these cars. What types, etc. > > One is the PRR business car #120, which Bennett has been running in > excursion service for years. You can see many photos I have taken of > the car by going to my photo archive and searching on Keyword "PRR 120" > at > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ > > The second car recently joined the fleet. It's the mid-train lounge > "Warrior Ridge" that has been refinished in Pennsy Tuscan. I don't know > its background. Perhaps Bennett can elaborate. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia aerial images On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I just found this URL for the U. of Penn Libarary that has some very large > satellite photos of Phildelphia availablewww.library.upenn.edu/census/ > images/phil1940.b.gif That's not the right URL. > Wayne Juction in one of the Germantown pictures. They took about a minute > and a half to download with DSL so they are quite extenisive files that are > much larger than terraserver so there isn't nearly as much cutting and > pasting of files to view the area. The large, quarter-quadrangle files are available for much more than just Philly, and have been discussed here before. All of PA online at ftp://www.pasda.psu.edu/pub/pasda/doq/ Download the zip file, unzip, and there's a TIFF file inside. Or, http://www.pasda.psu.edu/access/index.shtml to use the online viewer app to select downloads visually. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:31:22 -0400 Further to Jerry's post; does anyone know roughly what the percentage split would have been between X29 flat end and X29 dreadnaught end cars during the mid-1950's? Thanks. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! >PSA... > >For those of you clamoring for kits, Red Caboose had been taking >reservations for ready-to-run dreadnaught end Circle Keystone X29's. >They are due in soon. They ran enough that they actually have some >unbuilt kits in stock. They are very limited in number. If you are >interested, see your Red Caboose dealer while they are still available. > >Also, the long-delayed dreadnaught end ready-to-run "Merchandise >Service" X29's are finally out. This is a nicely weighted car..I >actually got one for myself despite being an N scale modeler! >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] U. of Pennsylvania Philadelphia pictures Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:37:04 +0000 Well try as I may I couldn't get through the maze of the U. of Penn library system so here is how I got to the pictures. I did an image search on google for "North philadelphia". Then I opened image "Phil1940.b.gif" That is PHIL and the year 1940 which takes you directly to the U. of Penn page for Phildelphia maps and geographic information. Apparently this is some kind of security breach in their system because I sure can't get there through their catalog or search fields. They list Sanborn maps but you need to show up in person to view them. They also say the Free Library of Philadelphia has the largest collection of Sanborn maps in the country. The Aerial photos I downloaded are all in the 4 megabyte range. they also list a service available through the city of Philadelphia that lists all business and zoning for quadrants in the city. 3' x4' Maps can be purchased for $1.89 each and the source is listed. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:56:12 +0000 Frank Brua asked: Further to Jerry's post; does anyone know roughly what the percentage split would have been between X29 flat end and X29 dreadnaught end cars during the mid-1950's? Thanks. Out of a total 27,000+ X29s, only the final 3,300 cars built received Dreadnaught ends: 78% Flat Ends 12% Dreadnaught Ends Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:02:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 12:56 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Frank Brua asked: > Further to Jerry's post; does anyone know roughly what the percentage > split > would have been between X29 flat end and X29 dreadnaught end cars > during the > mid-1950's? Thanks. > > Out of a total 27,000+ X29s, only the final 3,300 cars built received > Dreadnaught ends: > > 78% Flat Ends > 12% Dreadnaught Ends But the question related to what the breakdown was in the 1950's. Okay, you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more prone to wear than the other? I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight car buff, but I thought the construction numbers were discussed a few years ago and the split was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, not disputing it!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:41:56 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: "But the question related to what the breakdown was in the 1950's. Okay, you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more prone to wear than the other?" "I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight car buff, but I thought the construction numbers were discussed a few years ago and the split was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, not disputing it!)" The characterization that final production series of X29s (3,324 cars, last cars built in 1934) were the only cars with Dreadnaught ends came from "PRR Class X29 Boxcars and Related Classes (X28, X28a, X30, K8)," Gary Rausch and Robert Johnson, The Keystone, December 1976, p.2. Keep in mind that even though Dreadnaught ends first appeared in the late 1920s, they did not become widely used on new boxcars until the 1930s. We did discuss this back in July 2002, and came up with the neighborhood of 10% for X29s with Dreadnaught ends. (Search the archives for subject "PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers" for the thread.) The 27,696 car total is from October 1944. Reworking the numbers for October 1953, we get 23,336 total. 4500 Class X29 boxcars have been rebuilt to Class X29B by this date. If we assuming that the cars rebuilt to Class X29B were mostly flat end cars conforming to the law of averages, the ratio of flat end cars to Dreadnaught end cars would remain nearly the same. For Class X29 boxcars, end damage/wear wasn't the big issue - large numbers of flat end cars remained in revenue service through the 1950s, and the Dreadnaught end cars stayed in express service where the smaller capacity was less of an issue until it came to an end. It was side sill corrosion and the small 3034 cu ft capacity of the car that drove repairs, rebuilding, and retirement. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:55:59 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3724D.03825FF0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi guys; That 12%/88% split seems to be approximately what was discussed in a "sidebar" at one of the meets with Bob in attendance. I think it was mentioned that the flat ends were subject to bulging and then separation between sheets, but as Ben mentioned, rusting was much more of an issue with the X29. Since the flat end model was constructed first, they were also the ones to be retired (outright without rebuild) first, but that did not take place in big numbers until after your time frame. The rebuildings started in big numbers with the mentioned X29b, which ultimately went to about 4350 cars (+ or -). I would suspect that many of these "X29 subject to rebuild" were the cars with big problems (side rust-out, roof rust-out), as the sides, ends and roof were all new. I remember crawling on X29 in MOW service that had original roofs and they were most of them holed with rust-out. They also had tremendous coatings of asphaltum in the PRR attempts to plug up the leaks. Due to the number of coats I would guess that this began when they were not long in revenue service. The lower sides also looked like Swiss Cheese. The X29b got improved 1/3/4 Dreadnaughts in the rebuilding, I think. You are right, that left at least 23,346 cars (approx) in flat ends, even if we assume that ALL of the X29b rebuilds came from the flat end fleet. So, in your time frame, you would still have less than 15% dread end X29s, approximately? Another interesting thing I heard discussion on was the issue of dread end X29s being widely used in Express Service. I would guess that there being a constraint given tunnel clearances (Hudson River, maybe?) that required the use of X29, and the Express Service requiring the most water-tight, newest, nicest cars in that fleet, maybe they diverted a good portion of these to that service? Certainly there seem to be a lot of dread end X29 with steam lines and that little step below the door, even well into MW days. Then again, I am probably being too academic, and you should do things as you see fit. But the X29 and all the rebuilds are super cool cars, aren't they? Anybody done an X29d? Elden -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:42 AM To: Jerry Britton Cc: parkvarieties; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Jerry Britton wrote: "But the question related to what the breakdown was in the 1950's. Okay, you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more prone to wear than the other?" "I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight car buff, but I thought the construction numbers were discussed a few years ago and the split was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, not disputing it!)" The characterization that final production series of X29s (3,324 cars, last cars built in 1934) were the only cars with Dreadnaught ends came from "PRR Class X29 Boxcars and Related Classes (X28, X28a, X30, K8)," Gary Rausch and Robert Johnson, The Keystone, December 1976, p.2. Keep in mind that even though Dreadnaught ends first appeared in the late 1920s, they did not become widely used on new boxcars until the 1930s. We did discuss this back in July 2002, and came up with the neighborhood of 10% for X29s with Dreadnaught ends. (Search the archives for subject "PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers" for the thread.) The 27,696 car total is from October 1944. Reworking the numbers for October 1953, we get 23,336 total. 4500 Class X29 boxcars have been rebuilt to Class X29B by this date. If we assuming that the cars rebuilt to Class X29B were mostly flat end cars conforming to the law of averages, the ratio of flat end cars to Dreadnaught end cars would remain nearly the same. For Class X29 boxcars, end damage/wear wasn't the big issue - large numbers of flat end cars remained in revenue service through the 1950s, and the Dreadnaught end cars stayed in express service where the smaller capacity was less of an issue until it came to an end. It was side sill corrosion and the small 3034 cu ft capacity of the car that drove repairs, rebuilding, and retirement. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- F or assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3724D.03825FF0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!

Hi guys;

That = 12%/88% split seems to be approximately what was discussed in a = "sidebar" at one of the meets with Bob in = attendance.

I think it = was mentioned that the flat ends were subject to bulging and then = separation between sheets, but as Ben mentioned, rusting was much more = of an issue with the X29.

Since the = flat end model was constructed first, they were also the ones to be = retired (outright without rebuild) first, but that did not take place = in big numbers until after your time frame.

The = rebuildings started in big numbers with the mentioned X29b, which = ultimately went to about 4350 cars (+ or -). I would suspect that = many of these "X29 subject to rebuild" were the cars with big = problems (side rust-out, roof rust-out), as the sides, ends and roof = were all new. I remember crawling on X29 in MOW service that had = original roofs and they were most of them holed with rust-out. = They also had tremendous coatings of asphaltum in the PRR attempts to = plug up the leaks. Due to the number of coats I would guess that = this began when they were not long in revenue service. The lower = sides also looked like Swiss Cheese.

The X29b = got improved 1/3/4 Dreadnaughts in the rebuilding, I think. You = are right, that left at least 23,346 cars (approx) in flat ends, even = if we assume that ALL of the X29b rebuilds came from the flat end = fleet. So, in your time frame, you would still have less than 15% = dread end X29s, approximately?

Another = interesting thing I heard discussion on was the issue of dread end X29s = being widely used in Express Service. I would guess that there = being a constraint given tunnel clearances (Hudson River, maybe?) that = required the use of X29, and the Express Service requiring the most = water-tight, newest, nicest cars in that fleet, maybe they diverted a = good portion of these to that service? Certainly there seem to be = a lot of dread end X29 with steam lines and that little step below the = door, even well into MW days.

Then = again, I am probably being too academic, and you should do things as = you see fit.
But the = X29 and all the rebuilds are super cool cars, aren't they? = Anybody done an X29d?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:42 AM
To: Jerry Britton
Cc: parkvarieties; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's = Kits!

Jerry Britton wrote:
"But the question related to what the breakdown = was in the 1950's. Okay,
you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more = prone to wear than
the other?"

"I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight = car buff, but I thought
the construction numbers were discussed a few years = ago and the split
was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, = not disputing it!)"

The characterization that final production series of = X29s (3,324 cars, last
cars built in 1934) were the only cars with = Dreadnaught ends came from "PRR
Class X29 Boxcars and Related Classes (X28, X28a, = X30, K8)," Gary Rausch and
Robert Johnson, The Keystone, December 1976, = p.2.

Keep in mind that even though Dreadnaught ends first = appeared in the late
1920s, they did not become widely used on new = boxcars until the 1930s. We
did discuss this back in July 2002, and came up with = the neighborhood of 10%
for X29s with Dreadnaught ends. (Search the = archives for subject "PRR Class
X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers" for the = thread.)

The 27,696 car total is from October 1944. = Reworking the numbers for October
1953, we get 23,336 total. 4500 Class X29 = boxcars have been rebuilt to Class
X29B by this date. If we assuming that the = cars rebuilt to Class X29B were
mostly flat end cars conforming to the law of = averages, the ratio of flat end
cars to Dreadnaught end cars would remain nearly the = same.

For Class X29 boxcars, end damage/wear wasn't the big = issue - large numbers
of flat end cars remained in revenue service through = the 1950s, and the
Dreadnaught end cars stayed in express service where = the smaller capacity was
less of an issue until it came to an end. It = was side sill corrosion and the
small 3034 cu ft capacity of the car that drove = repairs, rebuilding, and
retirement.

Ben Hom

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
F or assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3724D.03825FF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:14:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 02:55 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Another interesting thing I heard discussion on = was the issue=20 > of dread end X29s being widely used in Express Service.=A0 I would = guess=20 > that there being a constraint given tunnel clearances (Hudson River,=20= > maybe?) that required the use of X29, and the Express Service=20 > requiring the most water-tight, newest, nicest cars in that fleet,=20 > maybe they diverted a good portion of these to that service?=A0=20 > Certainly there seem to be a lot of dread end X29 with steam lines and=20= > that little step below the door, even well into MW days. In an earlier post, my unfounded recollection was more of a 50/50=20 split of flat ends to dreadnaughts. I do not dispute the numbers=20 presented. However, my recollection is being jarred... is it possible=20 that, of the X29's in Railway Express service, that there was a 50/50=20 split? Maybe that's what I am thinking of, and that is certainly=20 something I could have been interested in learning at the time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:17:38 -0400 The second car, "Warrior Ridge" number 1157, is a former Southern Pacific 'French Quarter' Lounge built by Budd. It can comfortably seat 25 and includes a buffet/galley at one end of the car. It has been repainted into tuscan and has "Juniata" on its letterboard. For pictures of both cars look at http://www.aaprco.com/Cars/car_name_index.html This is the directory of AAPRCO registered cars. Interestingly enough, when bennett and Eric re-built the car they covered they opted to cover the Budd fluting instead of removing it. Hope this gives enough information, Bennett of course can give more deatils too. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:15:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Merchandise Service in Passenger Consist From: Jerry @ Pennsy Okay, found the video. Not quite as I recall, but still question worthy... The video is "Pennsylvania Glory, Volume I" by Herron Rail Services. Skip ahead to the Harrisburg section. The train does NOT come over the CV bridge. The east entrance to the REA area merges in with the CV trackage just before it enters the station area. So a train "appears" to come from the CV when it uses this path to the REA. The tip off was the head end power... an SW1. So it was not a passenger train, but rather a switching move. The SW1 is followed by a B60b, the "Merchandise Service" car, a few more B60's, then some box cars as the scene fades. Okay, so it was not a passenger train entering the station; it was a switching move. But that still puts a "Merchandise Service" car amongst a bunch of B60's coming out of the REA area. A MS car would be common at the freight station, but the freight station had leads from the opposite end, not via the CV line. So it is still very suspicious, and circumstantial. Any thoughts? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:32:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C37273.B21286F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme (I = presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing the = ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were = basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus any = rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C37273.B21286F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Am I correct that these cars are with the = Merchandise Service=20 scheme (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be = discussing=20 the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that = assignment.

Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I = thought they=20 were basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and = trucks. Thus=20 any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old.

Bob=20 Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C37273.B21286F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:11:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise Service in Passenger Consist --part1_170.235e9ae9.2c88318c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, I seriously doubt that any X29's or x29B's ever were equipped with steam lines (but I didn't say never) but I don't think it was all that uncommon to see Merchandise Service cars in express service in a Mail Trains, this we can document. But a mail train may not need steam heat as the car attendants usually had stoves to keep them warm. I don't believe that you would find an X29 in Merchandise Service on the head end of a passenger train as again I don't believe that the steam line equipped X29's were painted in MS paint. The Merchandise Service cars were really relegated to a different type of service as in time sensitive periodicals not mail. Many were fitted with racks. Greg Martin --part1_170.235e9ae9.2c88318c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,

I seriously doubt that any X29's or x29B's ever were equipped with steam lines (but I didn't say never)=20= but I don't think it was all that uncommon to see Merchandise Service cars i= n express service in a Mail Trains, this we can document. But a mail train m= ay not need steam heat as the car attendants usually had stoves to keep them= warm. I don't believe that you would find an X29 in Merchandise Service on=20= the head end of a passenger train as again I don't believe that the steam li= ne equipped X29's were painted in MS paint. The Merchandise Service ca= rs were really relegated to a different type of service as in time sensitive= periodicals not mail. Many were fitted with racks.

Greg Martin --part1_170.235e9ae9.2c88318c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:43:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] colors --part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred, I don't know what you received as private posts, but let's see if I can help... > I am new to the list, and have what may seem a pretty silly question: No sill questions just silly modelers ... 3^) > What colors were 1930s heavyweight era PRR Passenger cars painted? Well, I think that best way to answer this is with a question... (YUCK! I Hate that when it happens!) What era are you modeling? The reason I ask is because the color used prior to the post war repaints for the most part seem to me to be a lighter shade of Tuscan Red. Just look at a photo of a car in FOM scheme and then look at shot of a Creek Series car in the same Color Guide. Different... And the later the cars move toward the merger the more brown they became. I am drawn to the lighter shade... ("use the force Luke...") The various color photos in the PRR color guides are a chocolate-like red-brown (and were taken in the 1950's-60's, > not the 1930s), but the 'Tuscan' paints I have seen in hobby shops just do > not seem correct to me. Correct, as the synthetic paints were developed the color moved to more of a brownish color ... and the less lead the less red (or oxide as it may be). Please read on... I have seen references to a 'Pullman Red'.... is this the color I should be shooting for? Does anyone have a > suggestion for a readily available paint > (non-acrylic) color to use? > > Thanks! > Fred Talasco Well, I may not be always right (but I am learning from my wife ... she's a great teacher 'cause she always is...) I have always ignored the names on the bottles of the jars and gone for color... I advocate the use of FLOQUIL's BOX CAR RED for the color of my Pennsy Passenger Equipment... I lighten it a bit with oxide red to get the earlier shade and use it straight out of the bottle for my post war cars and Tuscan diesels. I think you'll be a convert once you use it. Again, I am not always right, but I am in training... #^) {yes dear, no dear, you don't look fat at all dear...} Read our new The Keystone Modeler ... as Jefferson Airplane says "... feed your head..." Greg Martin --part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred,

I don't know what you received as private posts, but let's see if I can help= ...

I am new to the list, and have=20= what may seem a pretty silly question:

No sill questions just silly= modelers ... 3^)

What colors were 1930s heavyweight era PRR Passenger cars p= ainted?

Well, I think=20= that best way to answer this is with a question... (YUCK! I Hate that when i= t happens!) What era are you modeling? The reason I ask is because the= color used prior to the post war repaints for the most part seem to me to b= e a lighter shade of Tuscan Red. Just look at a photo of a car in FOM=20= scheme and then look at shot of a Creek Series car in the same Color Guide.=20= Different... And the later the cars move toward the merger the more brown th= ey became. I am drawn to the lighter shade... ("use the force Luke..."= )

The various color photos in the PRR color guides are a chocolate-like red-b= rown (and were taken in the 1950's-60's,

not the 1930s), but the 'Tuscan' paints I have seen in hobb= y shops just do not seem correct to me.

Correct, as th= e synthetic paints were developed the color moved to more of a brownish colo= r ... and the less lead the less red (or oxide as it may be). Please r= ead on...

I have seen references to a=20= 'Pullman Red'.... is this the color I should be shooting for? Does anyone ha= ve a

suggestion for a readily a= vailable paint (non-acrylic) color to use?

Thanks!
Fred Talasco

Well, I may no= t be always right (but I am learning from my wife ... she's a great teacher=20= 'cause she always is...) I have always ignored the names on the bottle= s of the jars and gone for color... I advocate the use of FLOQUIL's BOX CAR=20= RED for the color of my Pennsy Passenger Equipment... I lighten it a bit wit= h oxide red to get the earlier shade and use it straight out of the bottle f= or my post war cars and Tuscan diesels. I think you'll be a convert on= ce you use it. Again, I am not always right, but I am in training... #= ^) {yes dear, no dear, you don't look fat at all dear...}

Read our new The Keystone Modeler ... as Jefferson Airplane says "... feed y= our head..."

Greg Martin

--part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise Service in Passenger Consist Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:27:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C372B5.EEE68E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- The Merchandise Service cars were really relegated to a = different type of service as in time sensitive periodicals not mail. = Many were fitted with racks. =20 Greg Martin=20 I believe the references to express cars (X29) in consists for = periodicals such as Time or Lif e, etc, are to REA cars and not = Merchandise