RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840

From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Riverfront photos Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:14:11 -0400 Hi All, I was on the lunchtime Spirit Of Philadelphia cruise on the Delaware River on Saturday for my first wedding anniversary. In spite for this fact, I still managed to get outside a few times to take about 80 digital photos without getting served with divorce papers of the "scenic" Philadelphia waterfront. The cruise was from Penns Landing south to the Navy yard and return. This included a view of the former PRR Ore faculty not seen very often. I had my zoom lens on for many of them that is equal to 300mm. Here are a few photos: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/dumper.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/unitedstates.jpg I took photos of pretty much everything "old and rusty" as my wife put it. I got all of the ships in the river including the Battleship New Jersey. I will offer you a copy of these photos for personal use only for the Princely sum or $6.00 mailed. You may see a few photos of my wife enjoying her Margarita at 11:30 AM, but that is worth the 6 bucks right there! Please reply to billlane@comcast.net with your mailing address if you are interested. My address is: Bill Lane Jr. 525 Warwick Rd. Deptford NJ 08096 Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:27:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman Diaphrams --part1_105.357d6d6c.2c84a348_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to replace the stock diaphragms on the Walthers P-S 4-4-2 and 6-6-4 sleepers with a better looking, operating diaphragm. What diaphragm(s), not of the full width type, are available that would match the prototype. The closest I have seen are the Amer. Limited 9600 made for the Budd cars. While on this subject, did Pullman, Budd, AC&F make the diaphragms in-house or were they acquired from a vendor? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_105.357d6d6c.2c84a348_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to replace the stock diaphra= gms on the Walthers P-S 4-4-2 and 6-6-4 sleepers with a better looking, oper= ating diaphragm. What diaphragm(s), not of the full width type, are av= ailable that would match the prototype. The closest I have seen are th= e Amer. Limited 9600 made for the Budd cars.

While on this subject, did Pullman, Budd, AC&F make the dia= phragms in-house or were they acquired from a vendor?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_105.357d6d6c.2c84a348_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:14:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Philadelphia Riverfront photos Hi All, I was on the lunchtime Spirit Of Philadelphia cruise on the Delaware River on Saturday for my first wedding anniversary. In spite for this fact, I still managed to get outside a few times to take about 80 digital photos without getting served with divorce papers of the "scenic" Philadelphia waterfront. The cruise was from Penns Landing south to the Navy yard and return. This included a view of the former PRR Ore faculty not seen very often. I had my zoom lens on for many of them that is equal to 300mm. Here are a few photos: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/dumper.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/unitedstates.jpg I took photos of pretty much everything "old and rusty" as my wife put it. I got all of the ships in the river including the Battleship New Jersey. I will offer you a copy of these photos for personal use only for the Princely sum or $6.00 mailed. You may see a few photos of my wife enjoying her Margarita at 11:30 AM, but that is worth the 6 bucks right there! Please reply to billlane@comcast.net with your mailing address if you are interested. My address is: Bill Lane Jr. 525 Warwick Rd. Deptford NJ 08096 Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 HI List... Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is apreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:58:28 -0700 John, These are now made by Gloor Craft and if I remember correctly were modeled after Jacks Tower. Should still be available...(mine is an old Quality Craft kit) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:51:28 -0400 John Frantz wrote: > Mike, > > If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, > Quality Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower > design in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 > lever interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any > others off hand. > > John > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:13:56 -0400 Dave, Did you check the PRR Steram locomotive number list? It is possible that steam locomotives numbered 4801-4814 and 4816-4839 were still on the roster, but to be retired shortly. Since PRR steam numbers skipped all over the place, it is quite possible. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:57 PM Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 > HI List... > > Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" > instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were > :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is > apreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:38:08 -0400 This is interesting. Does anyone know if the fact that this soldering gun normally operates on 220v vice our 110v house hold current change how this works? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter > Found this URL on the web for converting an electric soldering iron into a > hot wire foam cutter. There are also a couple of videos of it in action. > This should help me cut a four track piece of foam with banks fairly easily > for my PRR main (I think). > > http://club.cycom.co.uk/hotwire/Hot_wire_cutter_for_polystyrene_foam.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:49:47 -0400 Just a guess from looking at who built what when and with whose electrical equipment. Baldwin built 4800 @ Eddystone with Westinghouse electrical equipment. On the first order for 57, it looks like production (PRR assigned road numbers) was divided up as follows 4801 to 4814 built at GE. 4815 to 4839 built at Baldwin, by Baldwin, PRR and with either Westinghouse (20) or GE (5) electrical equipment. 4840 to 4857 built at Altoona, again with either or... All other units assembled @ Altoona GSC supplied all the frames. Of the total units produce Westinghouse supplied the electrical equipment for 74 and GE supplied for 65 Further, looking at the electrical supplier for the 4815, 4840, 4841 and 4842, all equipment was supplied by Westinghouse. It may be that GE had to take some additional time to ramp up for manufacturing and production of the units. Just another guess - since Altoona is closest to GSC, maybe they received their frames first. It would be interesting to see the casting dates. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:57 PM To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 HI List... Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is apreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson Tracking #: 91D0F10953DE974CBC6FE6A29614647B3B573BDC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:49:47 -0400 Just a guess from looking at who built what when and with whose electrical equipment. Baldwin built 4800 @ Eddystone with Westinghouse electrical equipment. On the first order for 57, it looks like production (PRR assigned road numbers) was divided up as follows 4801 to 4814 built at GE. 4815 to 4839 built at Baldwin, by Baldwin, PRR and with either Westinghouse (20) or GE (5) electrical equipment. 4840 to 4857 built at Altoona, again with either or... All other units assembled @ Altoona GSC supplied all the frames. Of the total units produce Westinghouse supplied the electrical equipment for 74 and GE supplied for 65 Further, looking at the electrical supplier for the 4815, 4840, 4841 and 4842, all equipment was supplied by Westinghouse. It may be that GE had to take some additional time to ramp up for manufacturing and production of the units. Just another guess - since Altoona is closest to GSC, maybe they received their frames first. It would be interesting to see the casting dates. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:57 PM To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 HI List... Anyone know why PRR gave the first production GG1, number "4840" instead of 4801? The first four production GG1s built were :4840,4841,4842,4815. Why out of road number order? Any help is apreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson Tracking #: 91D0F10953DE974CBC6FE6A29614647B3B573BDC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:37:51 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37157.67C3814C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2luY2UgSSBoYXZlIHNldmVyYWwgcGhvdG9zIG9mIHRoZSA0ODAwIHRha2VuIGF0IEVyaWUsIEkg YW0gcHJldHR5IHN1cmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgY2FyYm9keSB3YXMgYnVpbHQgYXQgQmFsZHdpbiBhbmQg ZWxlY3RyaWNhbCBnZWFyIHdhcyBhcHBsaWVkIGJ5IEdFIGF0IEVyaWUuDQogDQpJIGtub3cgZnJv bSB0YWxraW5nIHRvIHRoZSBvbGQgdGltZXJzIGluIEVyaWUgdGhhdCB0aGV5IHJvdXRpbmVseSBw cm9kdWNlZCBjb21wb25lbnRzIGF0IHRoZWlyIHBsYW50IHN1Y2ggYXMgY29udGFjdG9ycyBhbmQg YXBwbGllZCBXZXN0aW5naG91c2UgbmFtZXBsYXRlcyBhbmQgc2hpcHBlZCB0aGVtIHRvIFdlc3Rp bmdob3VzZS4gIFdlc3Rpbmdob3VzZSBkaWQgdGhlIHNhbWUgZm9yIEdFIG9uIG90aGVyIGNvbXBv bmVudHMuICBUaGlzIHdhcyBpbiB0aGUgZGF5cyBiZWZvcmUgR0UgYW5kIFcgYmVjYW1lIGVtYnJv aWxlZCBpbiBhbnRpLXRydXN0IGFuZCBwcmljZSBmaXhpbmcgc2NhbmRhbHMgd2l0aCB0aGUgZ3V2 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----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:50:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37137.9DEB7660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all who responded. I think I have located one to buy. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37137.9DEB7660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks to all who responded. I think I = have located=20 one to buy.

Mike Morrow

PRRT&HS = #6703

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C37137.9DEB7660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:08:05 +0000 John Frantz wrote: Close to the end of the [westbound freight train going through Altoona], but coupled on both sides to a freight car is an NKP class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know anything else besides what I told you. Does anybody have a notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the middle of a freight train? We do know that empty express boxcars and reefers were often routed home in freight trains (this occurred more often eastbound than westbound). From that standpoint, routing an empty baggage car in a freight makes sense (though this is the first documented instance that I've seen). However, it seems odd that there wasn't enough westbound express to warrant sending the car back to the NKP loaded. Perhaps the car was being routed home for repairs, or maybe some clerk in Sunnyside or Philadelphia was in a hurry to get the car off line to minimize per diem. Any other ideas? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:31:30 +0000 Could be being returned for maintenance and was out of service also. NB > Gents, > > As I continue to go through this slide collection i found > a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, > 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght > train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the > train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP > class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door > are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know > anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a > notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the > middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would > be appreciated. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:05:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Hirsimaki and Sweetland Books? From: Jerry Britton Eric Hirsimaki, author of the "Black Gold, Black Diamond" series on Pennsy dieselization, has put out two volumes of a planned five. It's been three (or four?) years since volume two came out. Anyone hear anything on volume three? The publisher of the first two was Mileposts Publishing, who isn't online. And Dave Sweetland put out three volumes under the "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial" title from Four Ways West. Anyone know if further volumes are planned? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:18:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37143.E47DE7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine = Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over = to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be at = least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I couldn't make out what = type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the tuscan = red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very noticeable. = I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into an accident. On = my return trip, about two hours later, they were gone, at least from my = vantage point. Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting? This sure = brought back some good memories. I remember Penn Coach Yards when there = was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember going to the Zoo to watch = PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at the = animals. Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37143.E47DE7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, I was driving down the = Schuylkill=20 Expressway onto the Vine Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as = usual, my=20 eyes wandered over to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, = what=20 appeared to be at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I = couldn't=20 make out what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the = letterboard, the=20 tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very=20 noticeable. I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting = into an=20 accident. On my return trip, about two hours later, they were = gone, at=20 least from my vantage point.

Does anyone have information pertaining = to this=20 sighting? This sure brought back some good memories. I = remember Penn=20 Coach Yards when there was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember = going=20 to the Zoo to watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was = busy=20 looking at the animals.

Larry

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37143.E47DE7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:26:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine=20= > Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over=20= > to 30th St. Station.=A0 I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be=20= > at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars.=A0 I couldn't make out=20= > what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the=20= > tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very=20 > noticeable.=A0 I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into=20= > an accident.=A0 On my return trip, about two hours later, they were=20 > gone, at least from my vantage point. > =A0 > Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting?=A0 This sure=20= > brought back some good memories.=A0 I remember Penn Coach Yards when=20= > there was nothing but tuscan red!=A0 I also remember going to the Zoo = to=20 > watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at=20= > the animals. Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:33:30 -0700 > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:10 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/31/03 > > > PRR-Talk Digest - Sunday, August 31, 2003 > > P70-FAR > by "Walter Prusick" > Re: [PRR] P70-FAR > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: P70-FAR > From: "Walter Prusick" > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:40:55 -0400 > > Gentlemen, > Two questions concerning the above model: > 1) the floor and one side are slightly warped, what is the safest > or surest > method of straightening these long pieces? > 2) Where may I find underbody equirment placement drawings? I possess both > "Passanger Equipment of the PRR: Coaches (Liljestrand & Sweetland) and > "Pennsy HW Passanger (NJ International) but neither have the info > I desire? > > Thanks in advance > Walt Prusick > > > I have never seen underbody drawings for PRR P70 cars. A reasonably good representation of the P70FAR underbody can be arrived at through careful analysis of available photos and guesses as to where components not seen would have to be. This approach works in NMRA modeling contests for prototype compliance. Pennsy HW Passenger (NJ International) has an excellent picture of one side of the P70FAR underbody on p.54, showing , from left to right between the trucks: a cross-bearer, an air conditioning condenser, similar to the "Safety" dry condenser type, a pressurized water tank, two battery charging connectors, a battery box with a curved outer panel, a brake system air tank and a second cross-bearer. Behind the brake air tank, mounted below the center sill there should be a generator connected to the inner truck axle with a Spicer drive. Page 28 of Passenger Equipment of the PRR: Coaches (Liljestrand & Sweetland)has a reasonably clear shot of the other side. In the shadows between the cross-bearer and two more battery charging receptacles most likely lurking a brake valve and a brake cylinder, near the center of the car is a second curved outer panel battery box, adjacent is a second pressurized water tank, and finally, hiding in the shadows between the water tank the crossbeareris, most likely a Spicer direct drive compressor for the air conditioning system. Finding all the parts to detail the underbody of a PRR coach is a scavenger hunt. I haven't seen an A/C condenser unit exactly like the one in the photo. The one in the P70FAR kit is similar, one of the A/C condensers in Train Station Products Passenger Car Detail kit #460 is closer, but still not exact. The water tanks are very similar to New England Rail Service #230 Pullman Pressurized Water Tank (containing two tanks). The battery changing receptacles are Cal Scale #354. The curved panel battery boxes were made in the 1980's by Limited Editions, #338 streamlined Battery Box Cover. Finding these may be a challenge. They could be scratch built by filing or sanding the curve into a piece of 0.020" styrene and cementing that to a flat piece of 0.020" styrene using dimensions from the drawing in your Pennsy HW Passenger book. The battery box cover would need to be backed up with a block of wood or styrene. The center beam in the Eastern Car kits is a poor representation of the PRR center-beam. Apply Evergreen Scale Models #266 3/16" channel styrene, open side out to either side of the kit center beam. The channels can added in sections between cross-bearers, and between the cross-bearers and the draft gear boxes. The truck mounting may have to be fudged. Try filling the space between the channels with strip styrene and drilling the screw hole down from the top side of the floor. If the car rides too high, file of the king pin area until coupler height is right and the roof is 13'-6" scale above the rails. In a prior posting you mentioned that you had the wrong tucks in your kit. Eastern makes 2D-P5 trucks, their part #9001. Bob Kessler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:36:02 -0400 Next "spin": Train 98 and then 97 on September 13 (Saturday) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine > Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over > to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be > at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I couldn't make out > what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the > tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very > noticeable. I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into > an accident. On my return trip, about two hours later, they were > gone, at least from my vantage point. > > Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting? This sure > brought back some good memories. I remember Penn Coach Yards when > there was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember going to the Zoo to > watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at > the animals. Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter --- Kris Kollar wrote: > This is interesting. Does anyone know if the fact that this > soldering gun > normally operates on 220v vice our 110v house hold current change > how this > works? I would suspect not. Soldering guns have a transformer built into the body, to transform 115 (or 220) volts to a few volts at high current to heat the tip. Assuming the original tip on each of a 115v and a 220v gun had the same resistance, replacing either tip with the same alternative tip would produce the same result. In other words, the standard tip would be very similar on both guns, so the behavior of an alternative tip would be about the same. The two guns would have different transformnrs to accomodate the differing input supply voltages. But then, I'm not an electrical engineer. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:48:48 +0000 Larry Reynolds wrote: "I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. <> On my return trip, about two hours later, they were gone, at least from my vantage point. Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting?" Jerry Britton added: "Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin?" Sure did - I spotted them both in Penn Coach from Amtrak 54 Saturday morning at 0921 on my way to New York, and spotted them again at the bumper in Union Station when I returned to DC on Amtrak 199 Saturday evening at 1830. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:51:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Freedom Train Station to Open in September From: Jerry Britton [From a press release...] On September 20th, the New Freedom Train Station will again open it's doors to visitors from near and far. After years of neglect, the restored station will again be a hub of activity. Located along the Heritage Rail Trail County Park, it will serve as the southern gateway to the 21-mile-long trail. In its second life, the station will offer a museum, public restrooms and space to accommodate a vendor. The station was restored to its 1940 appearance. [PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter member Bill Knepper spearheaded the restoration project. Unfortunately, Bill passed away this past January.] During its railroad life, the station hosted the famous and the common. For example, in 1939, King George VI's royal train passed through during his state visit. The museum will give visitors a glimpse at life when the railroad served as the cell phone, CNN, UPS delivery, automobile, school bus and community center. The museum is centered on a life-size depiction of a K-4 steam locomotive, letting visitors learn about the engines, track workers, the history of the Northern Central Railroad [Railway], and the town of New Freedom. The restored freight scales explore the railroad's effect on local industries while an authentic baggage cart affords a look at travel near and far. While focusing on New Freedom and the Northern Central Railroad, the museum displays combine to give the visitor an engaging look into the history of this small town and surrounding community, which easily could be the history of any small town in Pennsylvania when railroad was king. ### Festivities run noon through 5 p.m., with formal ceremonies from 2:30-3:30. As part of the ceremony, the Northern Central Chapter will be dedicating a plaque in memory of Bill Knepper and his tireless efforts to resurrect the station. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:01:17 -0400 Jerry: Please elaborate on these cars. What types, etc. Thanks, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 11:18 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > On Friday, I was driving down the Schuylkill Expressway onto the Vine > Street extension in Philadelphia, and, as usual, my eyes wandered over > to 30th St. Station. I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be > at least one, possibly two PRR passenger cars. I couldn't make out > what type of car, but the "PENNSYLVANIA" name in the letterboard, the > tuscan red carbody with black roof and the gold stripes were very > noticeable. I didn't want to look too long for fear of getting into > an accident. On my return trip, about two hours later, they were > gone, at least from my vantage point. > > Does anyone have information pertaining to this sighting? This sure > brought back some good memories. I remember Penn Coach Yards when > there was nothing but tuscan red! I also remember going to the Zoo to > watch PRR passenger trains pass when everyone else was busy looking at > the animals. Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:10:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 12:01 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > Please elaborate on these cars. What types, etc. One is the PRR business car #120, which Bennett has been running in excursion service for years. You can see many photos I have taken of the car by going to my photo archive and searching on Keyword "PRR 120" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ The second car recently joined the fleet. It's the mid-train lounge "Warrior Ridge" that has been refinished in Pennsy Tuscan. I don't know its background. Perhaps Bennett can elaborate. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:15:34 -0400 You saw something else in Washington DC because they never left Philadelphia. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars > Larry Reynolds wrote: > "I saw, in the coach yards, what appeared to be at least one, possibly two > PRR passenger cars. <> On my return trip, about two hours later, they > were gone, at least from my vantage point. Does anyone have information > pertaining to this sighting?" > > Jerry Britton added: > "Sounds like maybe Bennett had his two cars out for a spin?" > > Sure did - I spotted them both in Penn Coach from Amtrak 54 Saturday morning > at 0921 on my way to New York, and spotted them again at the bumper in Union > Station when I returned to DC on Amtrak 199 Saturday evening at 1830. > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:34:59 -0400 Since this was in 1967 by your records, the car by then was owned by N&W. It may have been on its way to either what was ex-N&W proper or ex-Wabash lines, since NKP passenger service ceased in 1965. Paul in Geneva, Ohio Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR From: Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:31:30 +0000 Could be being returned for maintenance and was out of service also. NB > Gents, > > As I continue to go through this slide collection i found > a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, > 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght > train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the > train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP > class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door > are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know > anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a > notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the > middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would > be appreciated. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:34:14 -0400 Hi all, The Jacks Tower kit is now manufactured by Gloor Craft - if you can find one. I've had two on order for about two years at the local hobby shop. Watch at shows like Timonium as I did pick up one last year there. There is also a PRR brick style Tower made by TCS Models. This is a resin kit and, although I haven't built mine yet, I have seen one built up and it looks very nice. It's their kit #30207 and cost around $37. It is probably not a first time resin kit to build but if you have put together a Westerfield or Sunshine kit, you should have no trouble with this one. Bud- John Franz wrote: > Mike, > > If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, Quality > Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower design > in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 lever > interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any others > off hand. > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:37:42 +0000 Bennett Levin wrote: You saw something else in Washington DC because they never left Philadelphia. Bennett, thanks. I'll have to go back to Union Station and check again. Must have been the weekend of Pennsy varnish! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:56:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Bud wrote: >There is also a PRR brick style Tower made by TCS Models. This is a resin >kit and, although I haven't built mine yet, I have seen one built up and it >looks very nice. It's their kit #30207 and cost around $37. It is probably >not a first time resin kit to build but if you have put together a >Westerfield or Sunshine kit, you should have no trouble with this one. Tell me about this TCS kit! What is their contact info? What tower is the model of? No web presence that I could find. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:12:31 -0500 There was a vendor at the PRRT&HS national convention that had several towers for sale. His prices were very reasonable given the fact that the towers were built-up. I don't recall seeing his table at the last convention, however. -----Original Message----- From: Bud Kaiser [mailto:bkaiser@voicenet.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 2:34 PM To: PRRTalk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Hi all, The Jacks Tower kit is now manufactured by Gloor Craft - if you can find one. I've had two on order for about two years at the local hobby shop. Watch at shows like Timonium as I did pick up one last year there. There is also a PRR brick style Tower made by TCS Models. This is a resin kit and, although I haven't built mine yet, I have seen one built up and it looks very nice. It's their kit #30207 and cost around $37. It is probably not a first time resin kit to build but if you have put together a Westerfield or Sunshine kit, you should have no trouble with this one. Bud- John Franz wrote: > Mike, > > If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, Quality > Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower design > in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 lever > interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any others > off hand. > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:27:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR --part1_d0.3e442434.2c867354_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Baggage cars were often used for excess length loads or loads not suited for box car shipment. When in freights, they were usually handled just before the hack (sorry, cabin car). In to the early 70's the theater companies would ship the backdrop curtains and stage props in these cars when moving between cities. They prefered the cars with end doors for their long, delicate curtains. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_d0.3e442434.2c867354_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Baggage cars were often used for excess length=20= loads or loads not suited for box car shipment. When in freights, they= were usually handled just before the hack (sorry, cabin car). In to t= he early 70's the theater companies would ship the backdrop curtains and sta= ge props in these cars when moving between cities. They prefered the c= ars with end doors for their long, delicate curtains.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_d0.3e442434.2c867354_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:54:49 -0500 > I have never seen underbody drawings for PRR P70 cars. I couldn't find my copy in a million years, but if anyone can scare up a copy of a Model Railroader of 1949-51 era that had the plans of a B70 and a P70, that might have had underbody details. Bob (yes, I read it as a kid and bought a copy at a swap meet later) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:20:29 -0400 Bob, Issue you are thinking about is October, 1951. It has side and end views only. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Bob Zoeller To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail > >> I have never seen underbody drawings for PRR P70 cars. > >I couldn't find my copy in a million years, but if anyone can scare up a >copy of a Model Railroader of 1949-51 era that had the plans of a B70 and a >P70, that might have had underbody details. > >Bob (yes, I read it as a kid and bought a copy at a swap meet later) Zoeller > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: [PRR] PRR brick Tower was: Jacks tower Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:44:46 -0400 TCS Models,The Car Shop, is owned by Dave Lawler and is located in Avon Lake Ohio. His phone number is 440-930-2096. You can also reach him at davelawler@attbi.com . The kit tower is modeled after the brick tower that is shown on page 15 of Jeff Scherb's book, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World. I have talked to Dave Lawler and he is most cooperative in answering any questions about the product. He advertised in MR about a year ago. Bud > Bruce wrote: Tell me about this TCS kit! What is their contact info? What tower is the model of? No web presence that I could find. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:24:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR --part1_f4.3053c82b.2c869cc7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/2003 6:33:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > Baggage cars were often used for excess length loads or loads not suited > for box car shipment. When in freights, they were usually handled just before > the hack (sorry, cabin car). In to the early 70's the theater companies > would ship the backdrop curtains and stage props in these cars when moving > between cities. They prefered the cars with end doors for their long, delicate > curtains. > Another cargo which was shipped in theatre cars was racing shells. George Pocock in Seattle would ship his cedar-skinned shells East to the team track at Princeton University: the location had the advantage of being sort of "in the middle" of the traditional rowing schools, so that pickup would be made easier, plus it had a bit of security by being on the campus, next to the powerhouse, which was staffed 24/7. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_f4.3053c82b.2c869cc7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/2/20= 03 6:33:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes:

Baggage cars were often use= d for excess length loads or loads not suited for box car shipment. Wh= en in freights, they were usually handled just before the hack (sorry, cabin= car). In to the early 70's the theater companies would ship the backd= rop curtains and stage props in these cars when moving between cities. = ;They prefered the cars with end doors for their long, delicate curtains.

Another cargo which was shipped in theatre cars was racing shells. Georg= e
Pocock in Seattle would ship his cedar-skinned shells East to the team t= rack at Princeton University: the location had the advantage of being sort o= f "in the middle"
of the traditional rowing schools, so that pickup would be made easier,=20= plus it
had a bit of security by being on the campus, next to the powerhouse, wh= ich was staffed 24/7.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_f4.3053c82b.2c869cc7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:17:19 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Underbody Detail All this talk and questions got me to digging. Through the work archives and I found my copy of a PRR 213B. And what you ask is a PRR 213B, well it is an "Air Conditioning Systems for Passenger Trains" Instruction Manual for employees "that are in any way connected with the operation of air-conditioning systems...." Wow! Anyhow this is a Jan. 1945 ed. and contains a list of all air-conditioned cars and ice or mech. AC information. Each car is indexed to a figure of the AC control panel and there are instructions for operating the AC. There are about 50 figures for describing the control panels. In the back of the book are 26 diagrams of AC systems, both ice and mechanical. These show basic air duct, ice ac plumbing, and mechanical ac piping diagrams. Knowing a cars class will not necessarily allow you to determine the underbody equipment. In this book there is a diagram of P70GSR class #4310 to 4359. Cars 4310 to 4323 & 4334 to 4359 have General Electric 20KW generators and controls. Cars 4324 to 4333 have Safety Car 20KW generators and controls. These cars (4310-4359)have either Frigidaire with Delco motor or G.E. with a G.E. motor mechanical AC units; these unit are throughly mixed by car number. You need pictures of both sides of the same car to be truly accurate. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] NKP baggage on PRR Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:54:58 -0400 Gents, As I continue to go through this slide collection i found a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would be appreciated. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Who built the 4800? Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:10:00 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C371AF.B783CEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay (Bill it=E2=80=99s all because of you) and I just had to =E2=80=93 = further reading has uncovered the following =E2=80=93 4899 assembled 8/26/1934 @ GE (SN 11646) or maybe @ Baldwin (SN 61816) = and Westinghouse or GE electrical gear =E2=80=93 maybe. =20 Research Material: Karl Zimmermann in Quadrant Press Review 6 =E2=80=9CThe Remarkable = GG1=E2=80=9D lists the builder as Baldwin with Westinghouse gear=20 =20 Frederick Westing, Mike Bezilla and Roger L. Keyser in the PRT&HS = =E2=80=9CThe Pennsy=E2=80=99s P5 Electrics=E2=80=9D list the builder as = GE and gear by Baldwin/Westinghouse =20 Paul Carleton=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CUnder Pennsy Wires=E2=80=9D has a = picture of 4899 in primer at Baldwin and with a photo (looks like a = builders photo to me) of the 4899 in its first paint scheme across the = mainline from the Eddystone office building =E2=80=93 see page 104 =20 Pennsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and = Tenders June 2, 1952 =E2=80=93 superseding (same name) No 109-j, dated = May 15th, 1948 says =E2=80=93 Electrical Gear by GE =E2=80=93 it does = not list the builder. =20 William D. Edson=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CKeystone Steam & Electric=E2=80=9D = lists the builder as GE with GE electrical equipment. =20 Or just read Bill=E2=80=99s comments on =E2=80=9CThe GG1=E2=80=9D in his = book =E2=80=9CPennsy Electric Years=E2=80=9D on page 24 =20 So I guess it=E2=80=99s now all cleared up =E2=80=93 Baldwin, GE, PRR & = Westinghouse built the 4899(4800) @ Eddystone, Erie, Altoona and or = Pittsburg (well not really Pittsburg), with electrical gear by GE and or = Westinghouse =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s the picture in Paul = Carleton=E2=80=99s book that really has me in knots. It=E2=80=99s late, I=E2=80=99m done, thanks Bill! I think it=E2=80=99s safe to say that it was built in Pennsylvania! =20 =20 Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. =20 Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone =20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill = Volkmer Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:38 AM To: Wayne S. Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840 =20 Since I have several photos of the 4800 taken at Erie, I am pretty sure = that the carbody was built at Baldwin and electrical gear was applied by = GE at Erie. =20 I know from talking to the old timers in Erie that they routinely = produced components at their plant such as contactors and applied = Westinghouse nameplates and shipped them to Westinghouse. Westinghouse = did the same for GE on other components. This was in the days before GE = and W became embroiled in anti-trust and price fixing scandals with the = guv-ment. =20 WDV =20 Tracking #: DA9141F521EE7B429D057B5CC278A513ED6DBDBB ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C371AF.B783CEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840

Ok= ay (Bill it=E2=80=99s all because of you) and I just had to =E2=80=93 further = reading has uncovered the following =E2=80=93

48= 99 assembled 8/26/1934 @ GE (SN 11646) or maybe @ Baldwin (SN 61816) and Westinghouse = or GE electrical gear =E2=80=93 maybe.

Re= search Material:

Ka= rl Zimmermann in Quadrant Press Review 6 =E2=80=9CThe Remarkable = GG1=E2=80=9D lists the builder as Baldwin with Westinghouse gear

Fr= ederick Westing, Mike Bezilla and Roger L. Keyser in the PRT&HS =E2=80=9CThe = Pennsy=E2=80=99s P5 Electrics=E2=80=9D list the builder as GE and gear by = Baldwin/Westinghouse

Pa= ul Carleton=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CUnder Pennsy Wires=E2=80=9D has a picture of = 4899 in primer at Baldwin and with a photo (looks like a builders photo to me) of the 4899 in its first = paint scheme across the mainline from the Eddystone office building =E2=80=93 = see page 104

Pe= nnsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June = 2, 1952 =E2=80=93 superseding (same name) No 109-j, dated May 15^th, = 1948 says =E2=80=93 Electrical Gear by GE =E2=80=93 it does not list the = builder.

Wi= lliam D. Edson=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CKeystone Steam & Electric=E2=80=9D lists = the builder as GE with GE electrical equipment.

Or= just read Bill=E2=80=99s comments on =E2=80=9CThe GG1=E2=80=9D in his book = =E2=80=9CPennsy Electric Years=E2=80=9D on page 24

So= I guess it=E2=80=99s now all cleared up =E2=80=93 Baldwin, GE, PRR & = Westinghouse built the 4899(4800) @ Eddystone, Erie, Altoona and or Pittsburg (well not really Pittsburg), with electrical gear by GE and or Westinghouse =E2=80=93 = it=E2=80=99s the picture in Paul Carleton=E2=80=99s book that really has me in = knots.

It= =E2=80=99s late, I=E2=80=99m done, thanks Bill!

I = think it=E2=80=99s safe to say that it was built in = Pennsylvania!

Cos

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

Small = business IT services.

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

<= span class=3DEmailStyle18>

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Bill Volkmer
Sent: Tuesday, September = 02, 2003 9:38 AM
To: Wayne S. Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] First Production GG1 4840

Since I have several photos of the 4800 taken at Erie, I am pretty sure that the = carbody was built at Baldwin and electrical gear was applied by GE at = Erie.<= /p>

<= /p>

I = know from talking to the old timers in Erie that they routinely produced = components at their plant such as contactors and applied Westinghouse nameplates and = shipped them to Westinghouse. Westinghouse did the same for GE on other components. This was in the days before GE and W became embroiled = in anti-trust and price fixing scandals with the = guv-ment.<= /p>

<= /p>

WDV<= /p>

<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C371AF.B783CEB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New Freedom Train Station to Open in September Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:11:47 -0400 As a brief addendum to Jerry's press release. I am happy to announce that for my Eagle project, I built one of the railroad displays for the museum. My display is an interactive trivia board focusing on the termoinology that was used in railroading. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:22:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton PSA... For those of you clamoring for kits, Red Caboose had been taking reservations for ready-to-run dreadnaught end Circle Keystone X29's. They are due in soon. They ran enough that they actually have some unbuilt kits in stock. They are very limited in number. If you are interested, see your Red Caboose dealer while they are still available. Also, the long-delayed dreadnaught end ready-to-run "Merchandise Service" X29's are finally out. This is a nicely weighted car..I actually got one for myself despite being an N scale modeler! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia aerial images Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:30:26 +0000 I just found this URL for the U. of Penn Libarary that has some very large satellite photos of Phildelphia availablewww.library.upenn.edu/census/ images/phil1940.b.gif Philadelphia NE has N. Phl. Station and over half of the Chestnut Hill Branch Philadelphia SE has Greenwich yard Germantown SE has Fairhill yard and the Oxford Branch Frankford SW has Frankford Juction and a good portion of the Mainline in that area. All the Reading lines are clearly visible also. there is a good view of Wayne Juction in one of the Germantown pictures. They took about a minute and a half to download with DSL so they are quite extenisive files that are much larger than terraserver so there isn't nearly as much cutting and pasting of files to view the area. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New Freedom Train Station to Open in September Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:09:43 -0400 As a brief addendum to Jerry's press release. I am happy to announce that for my Eagle project, I built one of the railroad displays for the museum. My display is an interactive trivia board focusing on the termoinology that was used in railroading. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:46:33 -0400 Ray, I can see a hint of a number peeking through the dust of ages on the left side of the car. I'll probabkly project the slide later this week to see if I can get an exact number. Until then, from what i know its a class MP baggage car. It has two large baggage doors and then a regular sized door on the left end of the car. I don't know how much that would help for now. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Ray Wrote: 1967 is late for any NKP baggage cars to have survived the purges of the N&W takeover in 1964. Do you know the number of the car? It may be one of the surviving baggage cars now in museums in Ohio, Indiana or Illinois. Ray Breyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:14:51 -0400 For your information here are some photos and nformation on the Warrior Ridge as well as the PRR 120 http://www.aaprco.com/cgi-bin/cardisplay.pl?warrior-ridge:name http://www.aaprco.com/cgi-bin/cardisplay.pl?prr120:name I hope it helps! Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars > On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 12:01 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > Please elaborate on these cars. What types, etc. > > One is the PRR business car #120, which Bennett has been running in > excursion service for years. You can see many photos I have taken of > the car by going to my photo archive and searching on Keyword "PRR 120" > at > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ > > The second car recently joined the fleet. It's the mid-train lounge > "Warrior Ridge" that has been refinished in Pennsy Tuscan. I don't know > its background. Perhaps Bennett can elaborate. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia aerial images On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I just found this URL for the U. of Penn Libarary that has some very large > satellite photos of Phildelphia availablewww.library.upenn.edu/census/ > images/phil1940.b.gif That's not the right URL. > Wayne Juction in one of the Germantown pictures. They took about a minute > and a half to download with DSL so they are quite extenisive files that are > much larger than terraserver so there isn't nearly as much cutting and > pasting of files to view the area. The large, quarter-quadrangle files are available for much more than just Philly, and have been discussed here before. All of PA online at ftp://www.pasda.psu.edu/pub/pasda/doq/ Download the zip file, unzip, and there's a TIFF file inside. Or, http://www.pasda.psu.edu/access/index.shtml to use the online viewer app to select downloads visually. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:31:22 -0400 Further to Jerry's post; does anyone know roughly what the percentage split would have been between X29 flat end and X29 dreadnaught end cars during the mid-1950's? Thanks. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! >PSA... > >For those of you clamoring for kits, Red Caboose had been taking >reservations for ready-to-run dreadnaught end Circle Keystone X29's. >They are due in soon. They ran enough that they actually have some >unbuilt kits in stock. They are very limited in number. If you are >interested, see your Red Caboose dealer while they are still available. > >Also, the long-delayed dreadnaught end ready-to-run "Merchandise >Service" X29's are finally out. This is a nicely weighted car..I >actually got one for myself despite being an N scale modeler! >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] U. of Pennsylvania Philadelphia pictures Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:37:04 +0000 Well try as I may I couldn't get through the maze of the U. of Penn library system so here is how I got to the pictures. I did an image search on google for "North philadelphia". Then I opened image "Phil1940.b.gif" That is PHIL and the year 1940 which takes you directly to the U. of Penn page for Phildelphia maps and geographic information. Apparently this is some kind of security breach in their system because I sure can't get there through their catalog or search fields. They list Sanborn maps but you need to show up in person to view them. They also say the Free Library of Philadelphia has the largest collection of Sanborn maps in the country. The Aerial photos I downloaded are all in the 4 megabyte range. they also list a service available through the city of Philadelphia that lists all business and zoning for quadrants in the city. 3' x4' Maps can be purchased for $1.89 each and the source is listed. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:56:12 +0000 Frank Brua asked: Further to Jerry's post; does anyone know roughly what the percentage split would have been between X29 flat end and X29 dreadnaught end cars during the mid-1950's? Thanks. Out of a total 27,000+ X29s, only the final 3,300 cars built received Dreadnaught ends: 78% Flat Ends 12% Dreadnaught Ends Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:02:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 12:56 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Frank Brua asked: > Further to Jerry's post; does anyone know roughly what the percentage > split > would have been between X29 flat end and X29 dreadnaught end cars > during the > mid-1950's? Thanks. > > Out of a total 27,000+ X29s, only the final 3,300 cars built received > Dreadnaught ends: > > 78% Flat Ends > 12% Dreadnaught Ends But the question related to what the breakdown was in the 1950's. Okay, you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more prone to wear than the other? I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight car buff, but I thought the construction numbers were discussed a few years ago and the split was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, not disputing it!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:41:56 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: "But the question related to what the breakdown was in the 1950's. Okay, you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more prone to wear than the other?" "I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight car buff, but I thought the construction numbers were discussed a few years ago and the split was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, not disputing it!)" The characterization that final production series of X29s (3,324 cars, last cars built in 1934) were the only cars with Dreadnaught ends came from "PRR Class X29 Boxcars and Related Classes (X28, X28a, X30, K8)," Gary Rausch and Robert Johnson, The Keystone, December 1976, p.2. Keep in mind that even though Dreadnaught ends first appeared in the late 1920s, they did not become widely used on new boxcars until the 1930s. We did discuss this back in July 2002, and came up with the neighborhood of 10% for X29s with Dreadnaught ends. (Search the archives for subject "PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers" for the thread.) The 27,696 car total is from October 1944. Reworking the numbers for October 1953, we get 23,336 total. 4500 Class X29 boxcars have been rebuilt to Class X29B by this date. If we assuming that the cars rebuilt to Class X29B were mostly flat end cars conforming to the law of averages, the ratio of flat end cars to Dreadnaught end cars would remain nearly the same. For Class X29 boxcars, end damage/wear wasn't the big issue - large numbers of flat end cars remained in revenue service through the 1950s, and the Dreadnaught end cars stayed in express service where the smaller capacity was less of an issue until it came to an end. It was side sill corrosion and the small 3034 cu ft capacity of the car that drove repairs, rebuilding, and retirement. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:55:59 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3724D.03825FF0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi guys; That 12%/88% split seems to be approximately what was discussed in a "sidebar" at one of the meets with Bob in attendance. I think it was mentioned that the flat ends were subject to bulging and then separation between sheets, but as Ben mentioned, rusting was much more of an issue with the X29. Since the flat end model was constructed first, they were also the ones to be retired (outright without rebuild) first, but that did not take place in big numbers until after your time frame. The rebuildings started in big numbers with the mentioned X29b, which ultimately went to about 4350 cars (+ or -). I would suspect that many of these "X29 subject to rebuild" were the cars with big problems (side rust-out, roof rust-out), as the sides, ends and roof were all new. I remember crawling on X29 in MOW service that had original roofs and they were most of them holed with rust-out. They also had tremendous coatings of asphaltum in the PRR attempts to plug up the leaks. Due to the number of coats I would guess that this began when they were not long in revenue service. The lower sides also looked like Swiss Cheese. The X29b got improved 1/3/4 Dreadnaughts in the rebuilding, I think. You are right, that left at least 23,346 cars (approx) in flat ends, even if we assume that ALL of the X29b rebuilds came from the flat end fleet. So, in your time frame, you would still have less than 15% dread end X29s, approximately? Another interesting thing I heard discussion on was the issue of dread end X29s being widely used in Express Service. I would guess that there being a constraint given tunnel clearances (Hudson River, maybe?) that required the use of X29, and the Express Service requiring the most water-tight, newest, nicest cars in that fleet, maybe they diverted a good portion of these to that service? Certainly there seem to be a lot of dread end X29 with steam lines and that little step below the door, even well into MW days. Then again, I am probably being too academic, and you should do things as you see fit. But the X29 and all the rebuilds are super cool cars, aren't they? Anybody done an X29d? Elden -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:42 AM To: Jerry Britton Cc: parkvarieties; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Jerry Britton wrote: "But the question related to what the breakdown was in the 1950's. Okay, you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more prone to wear than the other?" "I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight car buff, but I thought the construction numbers were discussed a few years ago and the split was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, not disputing it!)" The characterization that final production series of X29s (3,324 cars, last cars built in 1934) were the only cars with Dreadnaught ends came from "PRR Class X29 Boxcars and Related Classes (X28, X28a, X30, K8)," Gary Rausch and Robert Johnson, The Keystone, December 1976, p.2. Keep in mind that even though Dreadnaught ends first appeared in the late 1920s, they did not become widely used on new boxcars until the 1930s. We did discuss this back in July 2002, and came up with the neighborhood of 10% for X29s with Dreadnaught ends. (Search the archives for subject "PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers" for the thread.) The 27,696 car total is from October 1944. Reworking the numbers for October 1953, we get 23,336 total. 4500 Class X29 boxcars have been rebuilt to Class X29B by this date. If we assuming that the cars rebuilt to Class X29B were mostly flat end cars conforming to the law of averages, the ratio of flat end cars to Dreadnaught end cars would remain nearly the same. For Class X29 boxcars, end damage/wear wasn't the big issue - large numbers of flat end cars remained in revenue service through the 1950s, and the Dreadnaught end cars stayed in express service where the smaller capacity was less of an issue until it came to an end. It was side sill corrosion and the small 3034 cu ft capacity of the car that drove repairs, rebuilding, and retirement. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- F or assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3724D.03825FF0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!

Hi guys;

That = 12%/88% split seems to be approximately what was discussed in a = "sidebar" at one of the meets with Bob in = attendance.

I think it = was mentioned that the flat ends were subject to bulging and then = separation between sheets, but as Ben mentioned, rusting was much more = of an issue with the X29.

Since the = flat end model was constructed first, they were also the ones to be = retired (outright without rebuild) first, but that did not take place = in big numbers until after your time frame.

The = rebuildings started in big numbers with the mentioned X29b, which = ultimately went to about 4350 cars (+ or -). I would suspect that = many of these "X29 subject to rebuild" were the cars with big = problems (side rust-out, roof rust-out), as the sides, ends and roof = were all new. I remember crawling on X29 in MOW service that had = original roofs and they were most of them holed with rust-out. = They also had tremendous coatings of asphaltum in the PRR attempts to = plug up the leaks. Due to the number of coats I would guess that = this began when they were not long in revenue service. The lower = sides also looked like Swiss Cheese.

The X29b = got improved 1/3/4 Dreadnaughts in the rebuilding, I think. You = are right, that left at least 23,346 cars (approx) in flat ends, even = if we assume that ALL of the X29b rebuilds came from the flat end = fleet. So, in your time frame, you would still have less than 15% = dread end X29s, approximately?

Another = interesting thing I heard discussion on was the issue of dread end X29s = being widely used in Express Service. I would guess that there = being a constraint given tunnel clearances (Hudson River, maybe?) that = required the use of X29, and the Express Service requiring the most = water-tight, newest, nicest cars in that fleet, maybe they diverted a = good portion of these to that service? Certainly there seem to be = a lot of dread end X29 with steam lines and that little step below the = door, even well into MW days.

Then = again, I am probably being too academic, and you should do things as = you see fit.
But the = X29 and all the rebuilds are super cool cars, aren't they? = Anybody done an X29d?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:42 AM
To: Jerry Britton
Cc: parkvarieties; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's = Kits!

Jerry Britton wrote:
"But the question related to what the breakdown = was in the 1950's. Okay,
you could do a 78/22 split, but was one style more = prone to wear than
the other?"

"I don't dispute the figures, nor am I a freight = car buff, but I thought
the construction numbers were discussed a few years = ago and the split
was more 50/50? Ben, what is your source? (Again, = not disputing it!)"

The characterization that final production series of = X29s (3,324 cars, last
cars built in 1934) were the only cars with = Dreadnaught ends came from "PRR
Class X29 Boxcars and Related Classes (X28, X28a, = X30, K8)," Gary Rausch and
Robert Johnson, The Keystone, December 1976, = p.2.

Keep in mind that even though Dreadnaught ends first = appeared in the late
1920s, they did not become widely used on new = boxcars until the 1930s. We
did discuss this back in July 2002, and came up with = the neighborhood of 10%
for X29s with Dreadnaught ends. (Search the = archives for subject "PRR Class
X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers" for the = thread.)

The 27,696 car total is from October 1944. = Reworking the numbers for October
1953, we get 23,336 total. 4500 Class X29 = boxcars have been rebuilt to Class
X29B by this date. If we assuming that the = cars rebuilt to Class X29B were
mostly flat end cars conforming to the law of = averages, the ratio of flat end
cars to Dreadnaught end cars would remain nearly the = same.

For Class X29 boxcars, end damage/wear wasn't the big = issue - large numbers
of flat end cars remained in revenue service through = the 1950s, and the
Dreadnaught end cars stayed in express service where = the smaller capacity was
less of an issue until it came to an end. It = was side sill corrosion and the
small 3034 cu ft capacity of the car that drove = repairs, rebuilding, and
retirement.

Ben Hom

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
F or assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3724D.03825FF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:14:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 02:55 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Another interesting thing I heard discussion on = was the issue=20 > of dread end X29s being widely used in Express Service.=A0 I would = guess=20 > that there being a constraint given tunnel clearances (Hudson River,=20= > maybe?) that required the use of X29, and the Express Service=20 > requiring the most water-tight, newest, nicest cars in that fleet,=20 > maybe they diverted a good portion of these to that service?=A0=20 > Certainly there seem to be a lot of dread end X29 with steam lines and=20= > that little step below the door, even well into MW days. In an earlier post, my unfounded recollection was more of a 50/50=20 split of flat ends to dreadnaughts. I do not dispute the numbers=20 presented. However, my recollection is being jarred... is it possible=20 that, of the X29's in Railway Express service, that there was a 50/50=20 split? Maybe that's what I am thinking of, and that is certainly=20 something I could have been interested in learning at the time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger cars Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:17:38 -0400 The second car, "Warrior Ridge" number 1157, is a former Southern Pacific 'French Quarter' Lounge built by Budd. It can comfortably seat 25 and includes a buffet/galley at one end of the car. It has been repainted into tuscan and has "Juniata" on its letterboard. For pictures of both cars look at http://www.aaprco.com/Cars/car_name_index.html This is the directory of AAPRCO registered cars. Interestingly enough, when bennett and Eric re-built the car they covered they opted to cover the Budd fluting instead of removing it. Hope this gives enough information, Bennett of course can give more deatils too. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:15:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Merchandise Service in Passenger Consist From: Jerry @ Pennsy Okay, found the video. Not quite as I recall, but still question worthy... The video is "Pennsylvania Glory, Volume I" by Herron Rail Services. Skip ahead to the Harrisburg section. The train does NOT come over the CV bridge. The east entrance to the REA area merges in with the CV trackage just before it enters the station area. So a train "appears" to come from the CV when it uses this path to the REA. The tip off was the head end power... an SW1. So it was not a passenger train, but rather a switching move. The SW1 is followed by a B60b, the "Merchandise Service" car, a few more B60's, then some box cars as the scene fades. Okay, so it was not a passenger train entering the station; it was a switching move. But that still puts a "Merchandise Service" car amongst a bunch of B60's coming out of the REA area. A MS car would be common at the freight station, but the freight station had leads from the opposite end, not via the CV line. So it is still very suspicious, and circumstantial. Any thoughts? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:32:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C37273.B21286F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme (I = presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing the = ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were = basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus any = rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C37273.B21286F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Am I correct that these cars are with the = Merchandise Service=20 scheme (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be = discussing=20 the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that = assignment.

Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I = thought they=20 were basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and = trucks. Thus=20 any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old.

Bob=20 Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C37273.B21286F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:11:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise Service in Passenger Consist --part1_170.235e9ae9.2c88318c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, I seriously doubt that any X29's or x29B's ever were equipped with steam lines (but I didn't say never) but I don't think it was all that uncommon to see Merchandise Service cars in express service in a Mail Trains, this we can document. But a mail train may not need steam heat as the car attendants usually had stoves to keep them warm. I don't believe that you would find an X29 in Merchandise Service on the head end of a passenger train as again I don't believe that the steam line equipped X29's were painted in MS paint. The Merchandise Service cars were really relegated to a different type of service as in time sensitive periodicals not mail. Many were fitted with racks. Greg Martin --part1_170.235e9ae9.2c88318c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,

I seriously doubt that any X29's or x29B's ever were equipped with steam lines (but I didn't say never)=20= but I don't think it was all that uncommon to see Merchandise Service cars i= n express service in a Mail Trains, this we can document. But a mail train m= ay not need steam heat as the car attendants usually had stoves to keep them= warm. I don't believe that you would find an X29 in Merchandise Service on=20= the head end of a passenger train as again I don't believe that the steam li= ne equipped X29's were painted in MS paint. The Merchandise Service ca= rs were really relegated to a different type of service as in time sensitive= periodicals not mail. Many were fitted with racks.

Greg Martin --part1_170.235e9ae9.2c88318c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:43:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] colors --part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred, I don't know what you received as private posts, but let's see if I can help... > I am new to the list, and have what may seem a pretty silly question: No sill questions just silly modelers ... 3^) > What colors were 1930s heavyweight era PRR Passenger cars painted? Well, I think that best way to answer this is with a question... (YUCK! I Hate that when it happens!) What era are you modeling? The reason I ask is because the color used prior to the post war repaints for the most part seem to me to be a lighter shade of Tuscan Red. Just look at a photo of a car in FOM scheme and then look at shot of a Creek Series car in the same Color Guide. Different... And the later the cars move toward the merger the more brown they became. I am drawn to the lighter shade... ("use the force Luke...") The various color photos in the PRR color guides are a chocolate-like red-brown (and were taken in the 1950's-60's, > not the 1930s), but the 'Tuscan' paints I have seen in hobby shops just do > not seem correct to me. Correct, as the synthetic paints were developed the color moved to more of a brownish color ... and the less lead the less red (or oxide as it may be). Please read on... I have seen references to a 'Pullman Red'.... is this the color I should be shooting for? Does anyone have a > suggestion for a readily available paint > (non-acrylic) color to use? > > Thanks! > Fred Talasco Well, I may not be always right (but I am learning from my wife ... she's a great teacher 'cause she always is...) I have always ignored the names on the bottles of the jars and gone for color... I advocate the use of FLOQUIL's BOX CAR RED for the color of my Pennsy Passenger Equipment... I lighten it a bit with oxide red to get the earlier shade and use it straight out of the bottle for my post war cars and Tuscan diesels. I think you'll be a convert once you use it. Again, I am not always right, but I am in training... #^) {yes dear, no dear, you don't look fat at all dear...} Read our new The Keystone Modeler ... as Jefferson Airplane says "... feed your head..." Greg Martin --part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred,

I don't know what you received as private posts, but let's see if I can help= ...

I am new to the list, and have=20= what may seem a pretty silly question:

No sill questions just silly= modelers ... 3^)

What colors were 1930s heavyweight era PRR Passenger cars p= ainted?

Well, I think=20= that best way to answer this is with a question... (YUCK! I Hate that when i= t happens!) What era are you modeling? The reason I ask is because the= color used prior to the post war repaints for the most part seem to me to b= e a lighter shade of Tuscan Red. Just look at a photo of a car in FOM=20= scheme and then look at shot of a Creek Series car in the same Color Guide.=20= Different... And the later the cars move toward the merger the more brown th= ey became. I am drawn to the lighter shade... ("use the force Luke..."= )

The various color photos in the PRR color guides are a chocolate-like red-b= rown (and were taken in the 1950's-60's,

not the 1930s), but the 'Tuscan' paints I have seen in hobb= y shops just do not seem correct to me.

Correct, as th= e synthetic paints were developed the color moved to more of a brownish colo= r ... and the less lead the less red (or oxide as it may be). Please r= ead on...

I have seen references to a=20= 'Pullman Red'.... is this the color I should be shooting for? Does anyone ha= ve a

suggestion for a readily a= vailable paint (non-acrylic) color to use?

Thanks!
Fred Talasco

Well, I may no= t be always right (but I am learning from my wife ... she's a great teacher=20= 'cause she always is...) I have always ignored the names on the bottle= s of the jars and gone for color... I advocate the use of FLOQUIL's BOX CAR=20= RED for the color of my Pennsy Passenger Equipment... I lighten it a bit wit= h oxide red to get the earlier shade and use it straight out of the bottle f= or my post war cars and Tuscan diesels. I think you'll be a convert on= ce you use it. Again, I am not always right, but I am in training... #= ^) {yes dear, no dear, you don't look fat at all dear...}

Read our new The Keystone Modeler ... as Jefferson Airplane says "... feed y= our head..."

Greg Martin

--part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise Service in Passenger Consist Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:27:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C372B5.EEE68E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- The Merchandise Service cars were really relegated to a = different type of service as in time sensitive periodicals not mail. = Many were fitted with racks. =20 Greg Martin=20 I believe the references to express cars (X29) in consists for = periodicals such as Time or Lif e, etc, are to REA cars and not = Merchandise Service cars, and they moved in mail and express trains, but = as you said, never say never. As far as I know all the 60 and 50 foot = Merchandise Service cars were initially fitted with load retainers for = LCL (less than carload) service (freight, not mail and express service) = , but don't know if all the X29s were so fitted. Certainly "many" were = as you indicated. I am sorry the C&BT X29b has not come to fruition, as = that was the only 40 footer with the silver band Merchandise Service = scheme. I have been using Accurail cars as far-fetched standins because = 3D Graphics did a terrific job on the paint scheme a few years ago. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C372B5.EEE68E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----- The Merchandise Service = cars were=20 really relegated to a different type of service as in time sensitive=20 periodicals not mail. Many were fitted with racks. =

Greg=20 Martin

I = believe the=20 references to express cars (X29) in consists for periodicals such as = Time or Lif=20 e, etc, are to REA cars and not Merchandise Service cars, and they = moved in=20 mail and express trains, but as you said, never say never. As far = as I know=20 all the 60 and 50 foot Merchandise Service cars were initially fitted = with =20 load retainers for LCL (less than carload) service (freight, not mail = and=20 express service) , but don't know if all the X29s were so fitted. = Certainly=20 "many" were as you indicated. I am sorry the C&BT X29b has not = come to=20 fruition, as that was the only 40 footer with the silver band = Merchandise=20 Service scheme. I have been using Accurail cars as far-fetched = standins=20 because 3D Graphics did a terrific job on the paint scheme a few years=20 ago.

Bob=20 Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C372B5.EEE68E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:40:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Major Update to Varnish Database From: Jerry Britton For quite some time I've been working on web-izing a searchable database of PRR passenger equipment. To have more functionality for editing, I've been maintaining the data in a relational database outside of my web server. One of the roadblocks has been taking the time to develop the script to migrate the data to the web server's non-relational database. The issue is that the data contains carriage returns, which normally signifies the end of a database record. There are ways around this, but I had backburnered this task. Last night I successfully created the script, so now I can post batch updates to the web server. There is still much more data to enter. Once I enter all that I have, I will certainly entertain offerings of data, but not before then. As of this date the searchable roster contains all cars rostered as of 1954, plus some additions (but not all-inclusive outside of 1954). The search page has a link which further describes the source material, what is/isn't included, and what is to come. The URL is: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Suggested ways to use this database: 1) You are building a B60b with 2D-P5 trucks. You can search the database to return only those B60b road numbers that actually had 2D-P5 trucks. 2) You can search on part of a named-car's name, even if the name changed over the life of the car. 3) You can search on the name of a train to see what named-cars were assigned to it in 1954! 4) You can search on plans (vs. class). There is MUCH, MUCH more to come for this database. But I have enough to date that I thought it worthwhile to mention. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] colors Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:40:56 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C372B7.E060FCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The reason I ask is because the color used prior to the post war = repaints for the most part seem to me to be a lighter shade of Tuscan = Red. Just look at a photo of a car in FOM scheme and then look at shot = of a Creek Series car in the same Color Guide. Different... And the = later the cars move toward the merger the more brown they became. I am = drawn to the lighter shade... ("use the force Luke...") =20 Greg Martin Greg, I like the lighter shade (preferring a red shift rather than = brown), too, but I have no idea what is correct. I suspect we are both = seeing the results partly of fading and mostly of color shifts (or just = bad color originally) in the photos of the period. To show what can happen, I love my Nikon digital camera but in a 36 = page web technical review, it scored a 10 on everything except a slight = shift to red in colors. And I have to correct digitally. For example, = selling an SPFE reefer on eBay, bidder asked if the "orange" scheme was = prototypically correct. The "orange" scheme was an uncorrected "yellow" = scheme.=20 Re the lighter color,though, many have heard me rant about the light = salmon colored Bachmann postwar schemes, a result of trying to get by = with dyes in the plastic rather than paint. I find that I get the reddish tuscan color by priming with light gray, = followed by Scalecoat Tuscan. If I paint right over a black undec, I = think it comes out too dark.=20 I hope my ramblings don't confuse the original poster too much :-). Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C372B7.E060FCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The=20 reason I ask is because the color used prior to the post war repaints = for the=20 most part seem to me to be a lighter shade of Tuscan Red. Just = look at a=20 photo of a car in FOM scheme and then look at shot of a Creek Series = car in=20 the same Color Guide. Different... And the later the cars move toward = the=20 merger the more brown they became. I am drawn to the lighter = shade...=20 ("use the force Luke...")

Greg=20 Martin

Greg, I=20 like the lighter shade (preferring a red shift rather than brown), too, = but I=20 have no idea what is correct. I suspect we are both seeing the = results=20 partly of fading and mostly of color shifts (or just bad color = originally)=20 in the photos of the period.

To show=20 what can happen, I love my Nikon digital camera but in a 36 page = web=20 technical review, it scored a 10 on everything except a slight shift to = red in=20 colors. And I have to correct digitally. For example, = selling an=20 SPFE reefer on eBay, bidder asked if the "orange" scheme was = prototypically=20 correct. The "orange" scheme was an uncorrected "yellow" scheme.=20

Re the lighter = color,though, many have=20 heard me rant about the light salmon colored Bachmann postwar schemes, a = result=20 of trying to get by with dyes in the plastic rather than=20 paint.

I find that I get = the reddish=20 tuscan color by priming with light gray, followed by Scalecoat = Tuscan. If=20 I paint right over a black undec, I think it comes out too dark.=20

I hope my ramblings don't confuse the = original=20 poster too much :-).

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C372B7.E060FCA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 07:54:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Merchandise service From: Frederick Ripley The recent discussion about merchandise service cars reminded me of the following question: how long did they last in the special paint scheme? I don't think I've ever seen shots of any later than about 1960 at the latest. Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:08:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Business Cars From: Jerry Britton I've noted that the PRR's business cars were not included in the 1954 Passenger Equipment Roster. They obviously ran as passenger "extras". On whose roster did they appear...MoW? Speaking of which, can anyone provide a list of the PRR's business cars, including numbers and names? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:05:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise service From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 08:54 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > The recent discussion about merchandise service cars reminded me of the > following question: how long did they last in the special paint > scheme? > I don't think I've ever seen shots of any later than about 1960 at the > latest. The painting and lettering guide on Keystone Crossings shows the MS scheme being applied to various cars from 1947 through 1957. Cars would gradually be retired or repainted after that. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/schemes.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars Jerry, Pennsy Journal had a nice article in a past issue, years ago. I may be able to find that issue sometime today. I do recall those names and numbers changed routinly so getting an corresponding roster in a like era could be difficult....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise service Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 13:38:52 +0000 Fred Ripley asked: The recent discussion about merchandise service cars reminded me of the following question: how long did they last in the special paint scheme? I don't think I've ever seen shots of any later than about 1960 at the latest. The latest photo I've been able to find is a Dick Kuelbs photo of PRR 118728, a Class X41B boxcar in faded MS1 taken in Dallas TX on 4/10/1965. The photo is in PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 82. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:56:33 -0400 Re; They obviously ran as passenger "extras". On whose roster did they appear...MoW? The business cars were not included in the passenger equipment roster as they were in company service not revenue service. They typically only ran as passenger extras when the officials wanted to tour a line on which no regular scheduled passenger service was available. Otherwise they were normally run as the last car on a scheduled passenger train. I rode business cars in both circumstances over the PFW&C on a regular passenger train and on the E&P as a passenger extra. Typically when run as a passenger extra they ran with one or two additional passenger cars. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:29:24 -0400 Business cars are listed in the 1908 and 1916 passenger equipment registers... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:57 AM > To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'PRR-Talk LIST' > Subject: RE: [PRR] Business Cars > > > Re; They obviously ran as passenger "extras". On whose roster did they > appear...MoW? > > The business cars were not included in the passenger equipment roster as > they were in company service not revenue service. > > They typically only ran as passenger extras when the officials wanted to > tour a line on which no regular scheduled passenger service was > available. Otherwise they were normally run as the last car on a > scheduled passenger train. I rode business cars in both circumstances > over the PFW&C on a regular passenger train and on the E&P as a > passenger extra. Typically when run as a passenger extra they ran with > one or two additional passenger cars. > > Al > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:30:43 +0000 Were cars assigned to individuals and reassigned around the system as they changed jobs or were they assigned to territories to be used by certain personnel? > Re; They obviously ran as passenger "extras". On whose roster did they > appear...MoW? > > The business cars were not included in the passenger equipment roster as > they were in company service not revenue service. > > They typically only ran as passenger extras when the officials wanted to > tour a line on which no regular scheduled passenger service was > available. Otherwise they were normally run as the last car on a > scheduled passenger train. I rode business cars in both circumstances > over the PFW&C on a regular passenger train and on the E&P as a > passenger extra. Typically when run as a passenger extra they ran with > one or two additional passenger cars. > > Al > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:55:39 -0400 Re:Business cars are listed in the 1908 and 1916 passenger equipment registers.. They listed all of the MW equipment in the old registers also. Then at some point they dropped the details and just listed the number series. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars List, For those who have not this issue of the "Pennsy Journal", the following info is found: The following list of Business Cars show the assigned names for 1931. 40 Business Cars were on the roster during the late 20's-early 30's. It states that "part of the difficulty in maintaining a history of such equipment is related to the fact that many different cars may have had the same name over a period of time" Car #30 "Harrisburg" #60 "Wilimington" #90 "Delware" Z-74b #100 "New York" Z-74d #120 Z-74d #170 "Newark #180 "Pennsylvania" Z-74c #450 "Delmarva" #1027 "Cleveland" #2000 "Montauk" #2200 "Long Island" #3998 #3999 "Baltimore" #7501 "St. Louis" #7502 "Washington" Z-74 #7503 "Duquense" Z-74 #7504 Z-74d #7505 "Maryland" Z-74 #7506 "Illinois" Z-74 #7507 "Phladelphia" Z-74d #7508 "Chicago" Z-74a #7509 "Ohio" Z-74d #7510 "New Jersey" Z-74d #7511 "The Pittsburgher" Z-74e #7515 "Indiana" Z-68 #7516 "Johnstown" Z-68 #7517 "Canton" Z-68 #7525 "Lancaster" Z-62 #7526 "The Altoonan" Z-62 #7527 "Wheeling" Z-62 #7528 "Greensburg" Z-62 #7529 "Youngstown" Z-62 #7530 "Ft Wayne" Z-62 #7531 "Columbus Z-62 #8380 "Williamsport" #8381 "Toledo" #8382 "Indianapolis" #8383 "Buffalo" #8731 "Olean" #9802 "Susquehanna The article goe on to show different photos of the cars. Here is where the names and numbers do not match the list of 1931. For instance, #100 is now "The Chicagoan, #180 is the Philadelphia, etc etc. There is also a Quaker City, Wm Penn. Just depends on the era as to what was the cars were numbered or named. As for PRR Business Car models I am not sure of what all is/was available. Bachmann Spectrum has the Z74d? Nickel Plate Products (older Brass model) had one, possibly the Z-74c? Railworks had the Z-62? Garry S, can you add any info for modeling purposes? It would be nice to see a shiney Business Car bringing up the rear on any P train or special. By the way, someone asked me this question the other day. Why did they call Passenger Trains "Varnish" in days gone by? I really didn't now the answer so I told him probably because of the fancy wood finish inside those cars. Is this true?.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:15:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Op Session Harrisburg, Pa area 10/18/2003 1:00PM Fellow Listers, The Cornwall Railroad will be back in service for the October operating session after a 3 month construction period. The layout is capable of handling 12-14 operators plus one dispatcher. Required equipment for the session is: 1) a Family Channel radio with a mike and headset. ( I have only one extra) 2) A Digitrax Throttle, radio operation will be available but there are plenty of plugs for those of us that like "connecting" to the layout. 3) The desire to have fun while operating a model railroad designed around local freights. I request a firm commitment if you plan to come. All operators will be notified via email if they are on the callboard. Due to the small space for operators, drop-ins and non-operators are asked to visit during non-operating days. Aisle congestion and concentration on the jobs prevent me from being a good host to onlookers. The layout session is a car card operation with a fully-functional signaling system. Most mainline switches are dispatcher controlled and communication with the dispatcher is via radio headsets. Positions are: Dispatcher (must be qualified over the system to apply) Lebanon YM (non-throttle position. YM controls Lebanon yard and Lebanon local deliveries plus arrival and departure permissions. Lebanon Yard assistants (2) No radio required. Classify and assemble trains scheduled for departure from Lebanon, perform Lebanon local deliveries, assist arriving trains with cutting cars and adding cars scheduled to depart. Lebanon Yard is a double-ended yard. Lebanon industries are serviced on both sides of the yard. Road Crews (5-7) Operate scheduled trains over the line. Locals, through, and special service. Locals involve servicing industries at the local areas assigned. Tamaqua / Conewago Yard assistant (1) assigned to Tamaqua YM (me) Assistant will perform yarding assignments for arrival and departing trains from both Conewago and Tamaqua. Also perform interghange work at Lickdale Interchange for the Lickdale Local. Cornwall Mine crew. This crew will work the Cornwall ore mine tracks. The cars at the mine must be readied for the mine run. Loads must be pulled from the tipple, empties replace the loads, and returning empties must be placed on the ready track. Written instructions with the mine operations are provided. Lickdale Hostler. The hostler provides motive power for departing trains when needed during the session. A list for appropriate motive power assignments will be provided by the superintendent of motive power before the session. When assignments are filled I will not be able to accept any more bids for the session but I will add you to my callboard list. I send notices out every month before the session to those on my list of regular operators. I have no age limits for my session, so well-behaved sons and daughters are welcome. Proper adult / parent supervision is required please. Acceptance for the session will be sent via email approximately 10 days prior to the op session. For those that have never attended one of my sessions, I can furnish directions to my home from most driving locations. I am looking forward to seeing some familiar faces as well as new ones. Regards, Nick Kulp http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/kulp/index.html ===== President and Hired lackey grade 3 of the Cornwall Railroad Check out the Cornwall Railroad at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/kulp/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:22:53 -0500 > By the way, someone asked me this question the other day. Why did > they call Passenger Trains "Varnish" in days gone by? I really didn't > now the answer so I told him probably because of the fancy wood finish > inside those cars. Is this true?.....Gary I believe the old wood cars were varnished on the "outside" as well, hence the term. But that may just be a misunderstanding I have had for about 40 years. Wouldn't be the first. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:17:03 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C372F7.98250F40 Content-Type: text/plain Bob; I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into X29b's. You are correct. It was very clear that an all-new body was being assembled onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all the photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment. That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty nice, but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the diagonal panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, the only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill extension piece. Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of those for us? The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. Bob Zoeller ------_=_NextPart_001_01C372F7.98250F40 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bob;

I saw some photos once that showed = X29's being rebuilt into X29b's. = You are correct. It was very = clear that an all-new body was being assembled onto the old underframe with new = extensions (highly visible in all the photos) added onto the side sills to provide = the attachment.

That Sunshine X29b kit that used = the C&BT body turned out pretty nice, but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the diagonal panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, the only thing we will need to do = these cars is an underframe/side sill extension piece. Perhaps Martin can be = convinced to produce a few of those for us?

The problem with the X29d, e, f, = g, etc. is that overhanging roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline = 50' roofs?

Elden

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = September 03, 2003 9:33 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Red = Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!

Am I correct that these = cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme (I presume the all white stripe CK = )? Then we should be discussing the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends = for that assignment.

Re the X29B, I am too lazy = to look it up, but I thought they were basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus any rusting or leaks would be new = corrosion, not old.

Bob = Zoeller

------_=_NextPart_001_01C372F7.98250F40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:25:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 11:11 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > It would be nice > to see a shiney Business Car bringing up the rear on any P train or > special Rail Classics has been taking reservations on business cars for several years now. So far, not enough reservations to justify production. So if you really want a "PENNSYLVANIA" like I do, please ante up and order one from your dealer!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:33:16 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C372D8.58645A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a diagram dated 8-11-31 showing 9802 "out of existence". -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:12 AM To: Gary Mittner Cc: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars List, For those who have not this issue of the "Pennsy Journal", the following info is found: The following list of Business Cars show the assigned names for 1931. 40 Business Cars were on the roster during the late 20's-early 30's. It states that "part of the difficulty in maintaining a history of such equipment is related to the fact that many different cars may have had the same name over a period of time" Car #30 "Harrisburg" #60 "Wilimington" #90 "Delware" Z-74b #100 "New York" Z-74d #120 Z-74d #170 "Newark #180 "Pennsylvania" Z-74c #450 "Delmarva" #1027 "Cleveland" #2000 "Montauk" #2200 "Long Island" #3998 #3999 "Baltimore" #7501 "St. Louis" #7502 "Washington" Z-74 #7503 "Duquense" Z-74 #7504 Z-74d #7505 "Maryland" Z-74 #7506 "Illinois" Z-74 #7507 "Phladelphia" Z-74d #7508 "Chicago" Z-74a #7509 "Ohio" Z-74d #7510 "New Jersey" Z-74d #7511 "The Pittsburgher" Z-74e #7515 "Indiana" Z-68 #7516 "Johnstown" Z-68 #7517 "Canton" Z-68 #7525 "Lancaster" Z-62 #7526 "The Altoonan" Z-62 #7527 "Wheeling" Z-62 #7528 "Greensburg" Z-62 #7529 "Youngstown" Z-62 #7530 "Ft Wayne" Z-62 #7531 "Columbus Z-62 #8380 "Williamsport" #8381 "Toledo" #8382 "Indianapolis" #8383 "Buffalo" #8731 "Olean" #9802 "Susquehanna The article goe on to show different photos of the cars. Here is where the names and numbers do not match the list of 1931. For instance, #100 is now "The Chicagoan, #180 is the Philadelphia, etc etc. There is also a Quaker City, Wm Penn. Just depends on the era as to what was the cars were numbered or named. As for PRR Business Car models I am not sure of what all is/was available. Bachmann Spectrum has the Z74d? Nickel Plate Products (older Brass model) had one, possibly the Z-74c? Railworks had the Z-62? Garry S, can you add any info for modeling purposes? It would be nice to see a shiney Business Car bringing up the rear on any P train or special. By the way, someone asked me this question the other day. Why did they call Passenger Trains "Varnish" in days gone by? I really didn't now the answer so I told him probably because of the fancy wood finish inside those cars. Is this true?.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C372D8.58645A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I have=20 a diagram dated 8-11-31 showing 9802 "out of = existence".

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary = Mittner=20 [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, = 2003 11:12=20 AM
To: Gary Mittner
Cc: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk=20 LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Business = Cars

List,

     For those who = have not=20 this issue of the "Pennsy Journal", the
following info is = found:

The=20 following list of Business Cars show the assigned names for = 1931.
40=20 Business Cars were on the roster during the late 20's-early 30's. = It
states=20 that "part of the difficulty in maintaining a history of = such
equipment is=20 related to the fact that many different cars may have had
the same = name=20 over a period of time"

Car #30  =20 "Harrisburg"
      #60   =20 "Wilimington"
      #90   =20 "Delware"       =20 Z-74b
     #100   "New=20 York"       = Z-74d
    =20 = #120           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  =20 Z-74d
     #170   =20 "Newark
     #180   =20 "Pennsylvania"   Z-74c
    =20 #450    "Delmarva"
    =20 #1027   "Cleveland"
     = #2000  =20 "Montauk"
     #2200   "Long=20 Island"
     #3998
    =20 #3999   "Baltimore"
     = #7501  =20 "St. Louis"
     #7502   =20 "Washington"     Z-74
    =20 #7503    "Duquense"       = Z-74
    =20 = #7504           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;    =20 Z-74d
     #7505   =20 "Maryland"        =20 Z-74
     #7506   =20 = "Illinois"          &nb= sp; =20 Z-74
     #7507   =20 "Phladelphia"     = Z-74d
    =20 #7508   =20 "Chicago"         =20 Z-74a
     #7509   =20 = "Ohio"           &= nbsp;  =20 Z-74d
     #7510    "New=20 Jersey"    Z-74d
    =20 #7511    "The Pittsburgher"  =20 Z-74e
     #7515   =20 "Indiana"          =20 Z-68
     #7516   =20 "Johnstown"      = Z-68
    =20 #7517   =20 "Canton"          =20 Z-68
     #7525   =20 "Lancaster"      =20 Z-62
     #7526    "The = Altoonan" =20 Z-62
     #7527   =20 "Wheeling"       =20 Z-62
     #7528   =20 "Greensburg"    Z-62
    =20 #7529     "Youngstown"  =20 Z-62
     #7530     "Ft=20 Wayne"      Z-62
    =20 #7531     "Columbus     =20 Z-62
     #8380    =20 "Williamsport"
     = #8381    =20 "Toledo"
     #8382    =20 "Indianapolis"
     = #8383    =20 "Buffalo"
     #8731    =20 "Olean"
     #9802    =20 "Susquehanna

     The article goe on = to show=20 different photos of the cars. Here is
where the names and numbers = do not=20 match the list of 1931. For instance,
#100 is now "The Chicagoan, = #180 is=20 the Philadelphia, etc etc. There is
also a Quaker City, Wm = Penn. Just=20 depends on the era as to what was the
cars were numbered or=20 named.
As for PRR Business Car models I am not sure of what = all=20 is/was
available. Bachmann Spectrum has the Z74d? Nickel = Plate=20 Products (older
Brass model) had one, possibly the Z-74c? Railworks = had the=20 Z-62?
Garry S, can you add any info for modeling purposes? It would = be nice
to see a shiney Business Car bringing up the rear on = any P=20 train or
special.

    By the way, someone = asked me=20 this question the other day. Why did
they call Passenger Trains = "Varnish"=20 in days gone by? I really didn't
now the answer so I told him = probably=20 because of the fancy wood finish
inside those cars. Is this=20 = true?.....Gary


C= ome=20 visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and =20 Art
Work!

PRR K4s Loco Pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/= film/prrpics/

PRR=20 G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.:

http:/= /www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html

and......<= BR>
PRR=20 Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models:

http://www.= angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html

----------------= -------------------------------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C372D8.58645A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:32:04 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] Loco transfer to Amtrak --------------Boundary-00=_GH4PG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know where a roster is available on the "net" for the source = of early and transferred locomotives? I am looking for x PRR locomotive= s. Thanks Jim =20 --------------Boundary-00=_GH4PG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone know where a roster is available= on the "net" for the source of early and transferred locomotives? = I am looking for x PRR locomotives. Thanks Jim &nb= sp;

--------------Boundary-00=_GH4PG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 11:45:15 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! --------------1BBD94B1EA1BA5B117F4E3A8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is the C&BT X29b really dead? I know it has been delayed a looong time due to the owner's extended illness, but test shots were shown some years ago, so the mold do exist. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Bob; > > I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into X29b's.You > are correct.It was very clear that an all-new body was being assembled > onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all the > photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment. > > That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty nice, > but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the diagonal > panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, the > only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill > extension piece.Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of > those for us? > > The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging > roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs? > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > > Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme > (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing > the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. > Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were > basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus > any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. > Bob Zoeller > --------------1BBD94B1EA1BA5B117F4E3A8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is the C&BT X29b really dead? I know it has been delayed a looong time due to the owner's extended illness, but test shots were shown some years ago, so the mold do exist.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

Bob;

I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into X29b's.You are correct.It was very clear that an all-new body was being assembled onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all the photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment.
That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty nice, but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the diagonal panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, the only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill extension piece.Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of those for us?
The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!

Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment.

Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old.

Bob Zoeller

--------------1BBD94B1EA1BA5B117F4E3A8-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 12:30:09 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] Model RR Open Houses -- South Central PA -- September 20th, Hello all: Bob Martin and I (Jeff Warner) will be having open houses of our railroads on Saturday, September 20th, 2003 and we would like to invite anyone interested to stop by. Bob Martin's Central Pennsylvania Railroad is located in Emigsville, PA (just north of York). He will be open from noon until 10 PM. More details can be found at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/martin/ Bob can be contacted (for directions/questions/etc) at: Cprrboss@aol.com Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South Central Region is located in Etters, PA (about 1/2 way between York and Harrisburg -- about 10 minutes from Bob's). I will be open from 6:30 PM to 9:30 PM only. More details can be found at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/warner/ I can be contacted (for directions/questions/etc) at: jeff@pennsyrr.com Hope to see some of you on the 20th. Thanks, Jeff Warner (and Bob Martin). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:42:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Model RR Open Houses -- South Central PA -- September From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 12:30 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > Bob Martin and I (Jeff Warner) will be having open houses of our > railroads on Saturday, September 20th, 2003 and we would like to > invite anyone interested to stop by. > > Bob Martin's Central Pennsylvania Railroad is located in Emigsville, > PA (just north of York). He will be open from noon until 10 PM. More > details can be found at: > Jeff Warner's PRR/RDG/WM South Central Region is located in Etters, PA > (about 1/2 way between York and Harrisburg -- about 10 minutes from > Bob's). I will be open from 6:30 PM to 9:30 PM only. More details > can be found at: Two points worth adding... 1) This is the same date as the dedication of the station at New Freedom, just a few miles south of York. So if you are from out of the area, perhaps three events is enough to justify a day-long road trip. 2) This open house coincides with Bob Martin's regular operating session, from 7:00 on. So if you visit in the evening, you'll witness how he operates his layout...usually with 10-15 operators, including a dispatcher in another room. I'm a regular on Bob's crew, though I'll miss that session due to a conflict. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:41:59 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3730B.D7C3E540 Content-Type: text/plain Andy, From what you saw, was it a good model, or did it have molded on ladders and stuff like I heard rumored? Thanks! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:45 AM To: PRR Modeling; PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Is the C&BT X29b really dead? I know it has been delayed a looong time due to the owner's extended illness, but test shots were shown some years ago, so the mold do exist. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Bob; > > I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into X29b's.You > are correct.It was very clear that an all-new body was being assembled > onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all the > photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment. > > That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty nice, > but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the diagonal > panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, the > only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill > extension piece.Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of > those for us? > > The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging > roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs? > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > > Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme > (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing > the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. > Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were > basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus > any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. > Bob Zoeller > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3730B.D7C3E540 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andy, From what you saw, was it a good model, or did it have molded on ladders and = stuff like I heard rumored? = Thanks!

Elden

-----Original = Message-----
From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org]
Sent: Thursday, = September 04, 2003 8:45 AM
To: PRR Modeling; = PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR-Modeling] = Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!

Is the C&BT X29b really = dead? I know it has been delayed a looong time
due to the owner's extended illness, but = test shots were shown some
years ago, so the mold do = exist.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

> Bob;
>
> I saw some photos once that showed = X29's being rebuilt into X29b's.You
> are correct.It was very clear that = an all-new body was being assembled
> onto the old underframe with new = extensions (highly visible in all the
> photos) added onto the side sills = to provide the attachment.
>
> That Sunshine X29b kit that used = the C&BT body turned out pretty nice,
> but with the availability of the = Branchline 40' box with the diagonal
> panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 = riveted sides, and imp dread end, the
> only thing we will need to do these = cars is an underframe/side sill
> extension piece.Perhaps Martin can = be convinced to produce a few of
> those for us?
>
> The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, = etc. is that overhanging
> roof.......anybody really like = sawing up Branchline 50' roofs?
>
> Elden
>
> -----Original = Message-----
> From: Bob Zoeller = [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 = 9:33 PM
> To: PRR-Talk
> Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale = X29's Kits!
>
> Am I correct that these cars are = with the Merchandise Service scheme
> (I presume the all white stripe CK = )? Then we should be discussing
> the ratio of dreadnought ends to = flat ends for that assignment.
> Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look = it up, but I thought they were
> basically 100% new bodies on the = old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus
> any rusting or leaks would be new = corrosion, not old.
> Bob Zoeller
>

[Non-text portions of this message have = been removed]

Yahoo! Groups = Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT<= br>

Sharing and = enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in = miniature !

To unsubscribe from this group, send an = email to:
PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3730B.D7C3E540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:15:36 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] C&BT X29b (was:Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!) I don't recall. It was a long time ago (3 years?). However, C&BT was transitioning from separate ladders et. al. to cast-on. The wrong way to go IMHO, but considering the poor quality of his original separate ladders, I can understand why there was a push to go in that direction. I have several of the original C&BT cars which I built using Tichy or other such quality ladders and wire grabs. ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Andy, From what you saw, was it a good model, or did it have molded on > ladders and stuff like I heard rumored?Thanks! > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:45 AM > To: PRR Modeling; PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > > Is the C&BT X29b really dead? I know it has been delayed a looong > time > due to the owner's extended illness, but test shots were shown some > years ago, so the mold do exist. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > > > Bob; > > > > I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into > X29b's.You > > are correct.It was very clear that an all-new body was being > assembled > > onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all > the > > photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment. > > > > That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty > nice, > > but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the > diagonal > > panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, > the > > only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill > > extension piece.Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of > > those for us? > > > > The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging > > roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs? > > > > Elden > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > > > > Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme > > > (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing > > the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. > > Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were > > basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus > > > any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. > > Bob Zoeller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:22:04 -0400 We received one of the original preproduction samples way back when. It HAD the grab irons and ladders cast onto the body. A year or two later, I ran into Dick at another show. He said the car was progressing and that he had revised it to again have SEPARATE grab irons and ladders. I never saw a sample of this car Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: "'PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com'" , PRR-Talk Sent: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:41:59 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand > this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3730B.D7C3E540 > Content-Type: text/plain > > Andy, From what you saw, was it a good model, or did it have molded > on ladders and stuff like I heard rumored? Thanks! Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:45 AM > To: PRR Modeling; PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > > Is the C&BT X29b really dead? I know it has been delayed a looong time > due to the owner's extended illness, but test shots were shown some > years ago, so the mold do exist. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > > > Bob; > > > > I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into X29b's.You > > are correct.It was very clear that an all-new body was being assembled > > onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all the > > photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment. > > > > That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty nice, > > but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the diagonal > > panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, the > > only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill > > extension piece.Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of > > those for us? > > > > The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging > > roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs? > > > > Elden > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! > > > > Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme > > (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing > > the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. > > Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were > > basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus > > any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. > > Bob Zoeller > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > 25:HM/A=1712983/R=0/SIG=11u38u3s2/*http:/hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=13 > 74-105951838331032> click here > > > l/S=:HM/A=1712983/rand=115925743> > > Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better > reproduce the PRR in miniature ! > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3730B.D7C3E540 > Content-Type: text/html > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = > xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = > xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> > > > charset=3Dus-ascii"> > > > > > > > > > > > > style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> > >

> >

style=3D'font-size: > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andy, class=3DGramE>From what > you saw, was it a good model, or did it have molded on ladders and = > stuff like I > heard rumored? = > Thanks!

> >

style=3D'font-size: > > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Elden

> >

style=3D'font-size: > > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>

= > >

face=3DTahoma> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = > Message-----
> From: Andrew S. Miller > [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org]
> Sent: Thursday, = > September 04, 2003 > 8:45 AM
> To: PRR Modeling; = > PRR-Talk
> Subject: [PRR- > Modeling] = Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!

> >

face=3D"Times New Roman"> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

> >

face=3D"Courier New"> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Is the C&BT X29b really = > dead? I know > it has been delayed a looong time face=3D"Courier New"> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>
> due to the owner's extended illness, > but = test shots were shown some
face=3D"Courier New">years ago, so the mold do = exist.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy Miller
> asmiller@mitre.org
>
> New">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D
> ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:
>
> > Bob;
> >
> > I saw some photos once that > showed = X29's being rebuilt into X29b's.You
> > are correct.It was very clear > that = an all-new body was being assembled
face=3D"Courier New">> onto the old underframe with new = extensions > (highly visible in all the
> > photos) added onto the side > sills = to provide the attachment.
face=3D"Courier New">>
New">> That Sunshine X29b kit that used = the C&BT body > turned out pretty nice,
New">> but with the availability of the = Branchline 40' box with > the diagonal
> > panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 = riveted sides, and imp dread end, > the
> only thing > we will need to do these = cars is an underframe/side sill
> > extension piece.Perhaps Martin > can = be convinced to produce a few of
face=3D"Courier New">> those for us?
face=3D"Courier New">>
New">> The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, = etc. is that overhanging
> > roof.......anybody really like = > sawing up > Branchline 50' roofs?
> >
> > Elden
> >
> > -----Original = > Message-----
> > From: Bob Zoeller = > [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, > 2003 = > 9:33 PM
> To: PRR- Talk
> > Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO > Scale = X29's Kits!
>
> > Am I correct that these cars are > = with the Merchandise Service scheme
face=3D"Courier New">> (I presume the all white stripe CK = )? > Then we should be discussing
> > the ratio of dreadnought ends to > = flat ends for that assignment.
face=3D"Courier New">> Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look = it up, > but I thought they were
New">> basically 100% new bodies on the = old X29 underframe and > trucks. Thus
> any > rusting or leaks would be new = corrosion, not old.
> > Bob Zoeller
> >

> [Non-text portions of this message > have = been removed]

style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'> !supportLineBreakNewLine]>
>

> > > > cellpadding=3D0 > style=3D'mso-cellspacing:0in;margin-left:.5in;mso-padding-alt:1.5pt = > 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt'> > > > > > >

bgcolor=3D"#FFFFCC" style=3D'background:#FFFFCC;padding:1.5pt = > 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt'>

style=3D'text-align:center'> face=3D"Times New Roman"> color:#003399;font-weight:bold'>Yahoo! Groups = Sponsor

style=3D'width:352.5pt;background:white;padding: > 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt'> >

> cellpadding=3D0 > style=3D'mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'> > > > >

style=3D'text-align:center'> face=3DArial> style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial'>ADVERTISEMENT<= > br> > = > href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=3D259538.3830715.5078802.1261774/D=3Degrou= > pweb/S=3D1705169725:HM/A=3D1712983/R=3D0/SIG=3D11u38u3s2/*http:/hits.411= > web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=3D1374-105951838331032" > alt=3D""> style=3D'text-decoration:none;text-underline:none'> border=3D0 width=3D300 height=3D250 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" > = > src=3D"http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/sl/sleepangel/sleep_300x250.g= > if" > alt=3D"click here">

align:center'> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

style=3D'padding:1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt 1.5pt'>

class=3DMsoNormal> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> = > src=3D"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=3D259538.3830715.5078802.1261774= > /D=3Degroupmail/S=3D:HM/A=3D1712983/rand=3D115925743">= >

> >

face=3D"Times New Roman"> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
> face=3D"Courier New">Sharing and = > enjoying our > memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in = > miniature ! size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send > an = email to:
PRR- > Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Your use of > Yahoo! Groups is subject to the href=3D"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! > Terms of Service.

> >

> > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3730B.D7C3E540-- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] C&BT X29b (was:Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:34:21 -0400 I recently heard second hand that the business is up for sale. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: 'PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com' ; PRR-Talk Date: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:21 PM Subject: [PRR] C&BT X29b (was:Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits!) >I don't recall. It was a long time ago (3 years?). However, C&BT was >transitioning from separate ladders et. al. to cast-on. The wrong way >to go IMHO, but considering the poor quality of his original separate >ladders, I can understand why there was a push to go in that direction. >I have several of the original C&BT cars which I built using Tichy or >other such quality ladders and wire grabs. > >ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > >> Andy, From what you saw, was it a good model, or did it have molded on >> ladders and stuff like I heard rumored?Thanks! >> >> Elden >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:45 AM >> To: PRR Modeling; PRR-Talk >> Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! >> >> Is the C&BT X29b really dead? I know it has been delayed a looong >> time >> due to the owner's extended illness, but test shots were shown some >> years ago, so the mold do exist. >> >> Regards, >> >> Andy Miller >> asmiller@mitre.org >> >> ================================================== >> ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: >> >> > Bob; >> > >> > I saw some photos once that showed X29's being rebuilt into >> X29b's.You >> > are correct.It was very clear that an all-new body was being >> assembled >> > onto the old underframe with new extensions (highly visible in all >> the >> > photos) added onto the side sills to provide the attachment. >> > >> > That Sunshine X29b kit that used the C&BT body turned out pretty >> nice, >> > but with the availability of the Branchline 40' box with the >> diagonal >> > panel, non-overhanging roof, 5/5 riveted sides, and imp dread end, >> the >> > only thing we will need to do these cars is an underframe/side sill >> > extension piece.Perhaps Martin can be convinced to produce a few of >> > those for us? >> > >> > The problem with the X29d, e, f, g, etc. is that overhanging >> > roof.......anybody really like sawing up Branchline 50' roofs? >> > >> > Elden >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] >> > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:33 PM >> > To: PRR-Talk >> > Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! >> > >> > Am I correct that these cars are with the Merchandise Service scheme >> >> > (I presume the all white stripe CK )? Then we should be discussing >> > the ratio of dreadnought ends to flat ends for that assignment. >> > Re the X29B, I am too lazy to look it up, but I thought they were >> > basically 100% new bodies on the old X29 underframe and trucks. Thus >> >> > any rusting or leaks would be new corrosion, not old. >> > Bob Zoeller >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:33:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Red Caboose HO Scale X29's Kits! From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 02:22 PM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies wrote: > We received one of the original preproduction samples way back when. > It HAD > the grab irons and ladders cast onto the body. > > A year or two later, I ran into Dick at another show. He said the car > was > progressing and that he had revised it to again have SEPARATE grab > irons and > ladders. I never saw a sample of this car Careful! The above message was in response to a comment on the C&BT X29b, yet the subject matter is Red Caboose X29's. Could get dicey in the archives! For the record... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:51:42 +0000 I think in the Keystone article on Baltimore station was a picture of a New Haven EP-5 in Baltimore. Was this a common occurence (Senator?)? What was it doing pulling a train in Baltimore? Can I legitimately justify one of these through Philly? I never saw one there. I've always like the New Haven jets. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:19:14 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor As I recall, the story is that the PRR borrowed an EP-5 for tests. It was then in the market for the GG-1 successor (I say "successor", not replacement. Nothing will ever replace a GG-1). The EP-5s were deemed too light. There was too much wheel slip on the Hudson tunnel grades with the long trains the PRR ran. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I think in the Keystone article on Baltimore station was a picture of a New > Haven EP-5 in Baltimore. Was this a common occurence (Senator?)? What was > it doing pulling a train in Baltimore? Can I legitimately justify one of > these through Philly? I never saw one there. I've always like the New Haven > jets. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:19:38 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor >I think in the Keystone article on Baltimore station was a picture of a New >Haven EP-5 in Baltimore. Was this a common occurence (Senator?)? What was >it doing pulling a train in Baltimore? Can I legitimately justify one of >these through Philly? I never saw one there. I've always like the New Haven >jets. No, beats me, yes Bottom line?...ERA! What year are we talking about? With the merger of New Haven into Penn Central, the EP-5s did show up on the NE corridor, however, they were not common. Prior to this, the EP-5 would only have ventured that far south as an experiment, which might have happened. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:50:11 +0000 Bruce Smith wrote: Bottom line?...ERA! What year are we talking about? With the merger of New Haven into Penn Central, the EP-5s did show up on the NE corridor, however, they were not common. Prior to this, the EP-5 would only have ventured that far south as an experiment, which might have happened. Yanosey's PC Power does show one of the Jets on a freight south of NYC; however, by then it was painted black. IMHO, black paint or a scabby McGuiness scheme by this time kind of dimishes the sex appeal of the Jets. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:50:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Varnish Database Update / Copyright (long) From: Jerry Britton IF RESPONDING TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE DO NOT INCLUDE IT, DUE TO ITS LENGTH!!! I've gotten a few queries already...what happened to the truck data? I've temporarily suspended it to sort out some copyright issues. As referenced in my sources, the truck data came from Bob Colquitt's "PRR Passenger Car Roster", a spiral bound reprint of the Pennsy's own 1954 document of the same name, with the addition of the truck data. Mr. Colquitt is citing a violation of copyright law and I have suspended that portion of the data until a formal "opinion" is established. I believe Mr. Colquitt's work to be considered a "compilation" of sources, which is covered by Copyright Law, Title 17, Circular 92, Chapter 1, Section 103 ( http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#103 ) which reads... ---------------(clip)---------------- Subject matter of copyright: Compilations and derivative works (b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. ---------------(clip)---------------- If Mr. Colquitt did compile two sources (the 1954 PRR roster and the truck data) then he cannot copyright the data itself, only an interpretation, etc. This puts him in a bit of a quandry... 1) To be original material, he would have to claim that he personally, or his assigns, logged the truck information on every car. This scenario is doubtful, in my opinion. He will not go on record as saying this was the case. 2) He used source material from elsewhere. This cannot be copyrighted by him. I have asked him about his sources. He says they are handwritten notes. Not to be argumentative, but rather fact-finding, I asked if they were original notes or copies. I have copies of many handwritten notes that went into the compilation. I feel this is an important fact to delve into. He is refusing to discuss the matter further. I have that in writing. As for my actions... I had no malicious intent. I documented my sources. Upon being contacted by Mr. Colquitt, I immediately suspended display of the truck information, as a courtesy, not an admission of violation of copyright law. I have, in a professional manner, tried to get Mr. Colquitt to demonstrate that the truck information is his original work; he will not. I am not out to "get" or "cheat" anyone. I am not making a buck off of this. It is historical information offered to the world at no cost. The only people who stand to lose from this database are railroadiana dealers...but that's just business. Until this is resolved, one way or another, I will continue to suspend sharing of the truck data, unfortunately. But now you know why. Professional opinions on the matter are welcome. P.S. This really opens up a pandora's box. Just today a subscriber posted a list of business cars that was listed in Pennsy Journal 20 years ago. All that was stated was factual information. But because it was printed in Pennsy Journal, does that mean they hold the copyright to the data? In my opinion, NO! What about when someone shares an answer that was found in The Keystone? Does the Society hold a copyright on the data? I think NOT! If the article includes an opinion or interpretation on the matter, sure, but not on the raw data. I could be wrong... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Primary, secondary and tertiary data Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:45:49 -0400 RE: Just today a subscriber posted a list of business cars that was listed in Pennsy Journal 20 years ago. All that was stated was factual information. It might be a factual quote from the magazine, but it's really what I would consider a tertiary source. As such it may or may not be truly factual. The only true primary factual information is that which is seen in PRR documents (memos, letters, forms, tables, charts, diagrams, etc.) and even then some are know to have mistakes. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Aerial Photos of Pennsylvania Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:23:27 -0400 The aerial photos of PA are great - they cover the whole state. Two questions: 1) I can't seem to find the 1940 aerial photos. Can anyone help? 2) Anyone know of similar aerial photos of other states, particularly NY and OH? TIA Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Primary, secondary and tertiary data Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:12:26 -0400 I have a copy of some data from the late Peter Tilp about business car names and numbers and the information is all over the lot, almost the same as what is quoted for 4899 (1st GG-1). I will try to dig it out. Frank Tatnall also had a really good listing the the car names and numbers. For instance on the Tilp list he shows that the car that wound up in Rio Grande NJ and was last called the Buffalo before going into MW service carried the number 120 at one time. Go Know! Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'PRR-Talk LIST'" Cc: "'Jerry Britton'" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 4:45 PM Subject: [PRR] Primary, secondary and tertiary data > RE: Just today a subscriber posted a list of business cars that was > listed in Pennsy Journal 20 years ago. All that was stated was factual > information. > > It might be a factual quote from the magazine, but it's really what I > would consider a tertiary source. As such it may or may not be truly > factual. The only true primary factual information is that which is seen > in PRR documents (memos, letters, forms, tables, charts, diagrams, etc.) > and even then some are know to have mistakes. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AUDIOWIZARD1@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:27:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] delmarva division -------------------------------1062710845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey guys I am modeling the delmarva division between Armstrong, and delmar. I haven't been able to find the names and locations of the towers. any help would be great. also any online photos of the passenger stations would be a big help as i didn't see them when i went down there thanks Gene -------------------------------1062710845 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

hey guys

I am modeling the delmarva division= between Armstrong, and delmar.

I haven't been able to find the nam= es and locations of the towers.

any help would be great. also any o= nline photos of the passenger stations would

be a big help as i didn't see them=20= when i went down there

thanks Gene

-------------------------------1062710845-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:36:28 -0400 Our interest may be 1:1, but my modeling is in N scale, and sometimes I get lost in the discussions about what scale PRR models are being accurately produced. A Z74c or d in N scale ..... can it be? Bob McKay Susquehanna Div, PRR DuBois, PA On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 11:11 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: It would be nice to see a shiney Business Car bringing up the rear on any P train or special > Rail Classics has been taking reservations on business cars for several years now. So far, not enough reservations to justify production. So if you really want a "PENNSYLVANIA" like I do, please ante up and order one from your dealer!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:48:43 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Ben said: > >Yanosey's PC Power does show one of the Jets on a freight south of NYC; >however, by then it was painted black. IMHO, black paint or a scabby >McGuiness scheme by this time kind of dimishes the sex appeal of the Jets. I had a vague recollection that the EP-5s were mainly used on freight as well during the PC years...something from one of the PRR videos (Pennsy Racetrack?) with a black jet (YUCK)...I dunno, if I had to model a NH electric, I think I'd go for the EP-3 in 1933 in all its NH glory . Of course, Brianna wants a NH I-5 4-6-4...how the heck am I gonna rationalize that? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:53:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Cars --part1_ce.3c76b88d.2c890e51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/4/2003 11:35:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobspf@wi.rr.com writes: > I believe the old wood cars were varnished on the "outside" as well, hence > the term. But that may just be a misunderstanding I have had for about 40 > years. Wouldn't be the first. > Metal cars and locomotives were also varnished: indeed, there was a recent comment in one of these PRR listservs about the varnish applied to Diesel locomotives c. 1950. In Britain, the locomotives were also waxed, and the burnishing of designs in the wax was one of the chores of the "shed" crews through the Edwardian period. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_ce.3c76b88d.2c890e51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/4/20= 03 11:35:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobspf@wi.rr.com writes:

I believe the old wood cars= were varnished on the "outside" as well, hence
the term. But that may just be a misunderstanding I have had for about 4= 0
years. Wouldn't be the first.

Metal cars and locomotives were also varnished: indeed, there was a
recent comment in one of these PRR listservs about the varnish
applied to Diesel locomotives c. 1950. In Britain, the locomotives= were
also waxed, and the burnishing of designs in the wax was one of the
chores of the "shed" crews through the Edwardian period.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_ce.3c76b88d.2c890e51_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:58:29 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] C&BT X29b SGV5IFl1emUgR2l6ZSwKClRoZSBsYXN0IHJlcG9ydCBJIHJlY2VpdmVkIHdoaWxlIGRvaW5n IHRoZSBTY3V0dGxlYnV0dCBDb2x1bW4gd2FzIHRoYXQgRGljayB3YXMgbm90IHdlbGwgYW5k IEkgZ3Vlc3MgaGlzIHRyYW5zcGxhbnQgd2VudCB3ZWxsLiBSaWNoIE9yciBhbmQgSSBleGNo YW5nZWQgc29tZSBlbWFpbCdzIHJlZ2FyZGluZyBDJkJUIFNob3BzIGludmVudG9yeSBhcyBE aWNrIHRvbGQgbWUgUmljaCBoYWQgdGFrZW4gYW4gaW52ZW50b3J5IGZvciBoaW0uIFRoZXJl IHdlcmUgdmFyaW91cyBraXRzIGxlZnQgd2l0aCBhbmQgd2l0aG91dCBhdHRhY2hlZCBsYWRk ZXJzLiBQZXJoYXBzIFJpY2ggT3JyIGNhbiB1cGRhdGUgdXMgb24gRGljaydzIGhlYWx0aC4g V2Ugd2lzaCBoaW0gd2VsbC4gSSBkaWRuJ3QgaGVhciBoZSBoYWQgaGlzIGNvbXBhbnkgdXAg Zm9yIHNhbGU/IAoKSSBzYXcgdGhlIFgyOWIgYW5kIFgyOWQgYXQgYSB0cmFkZSBjb252ZW50 aW9uIGluIENoaWNhZ28gYWJvdXQgdGhyZWUgeWVhcnMgYWdvIGFuZCBEaWNrIHdhcyBhbG9u ZSB3b3JraW5nIGhpcyBib290aCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHRoZSBoZWFkIG9mIE1SSUEgYXQgdGhl IHRpbWUgYW5kIGhlIHRvbGQgbWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgc2FtcGxlIHNob3duIHdhcyBiZWluZyBy ZSB0b29sZWQgd2l0aG91dCBsYWRkZXJzIGF0dGFjaGVkLCBidXQgaGFkIG5vIHNhbXBsZS4g IFRoZSBzYW1wbGUgSSBkaWQgc2VlIHdhcyBhIHR5cGljYWwgdGVzdHNob3QuLi5zb21lIHJv dWdoIHNwb3RzIGJ1dCB3b3J0aHkuCgpJIGhhdmUgc2VlbiBwaG90b3Mgb2YgYm90aCB0aGUg cHJvZHVjdGlvbiBsaW5lcyBvZiB0aGUgWDI5YiAoYXMgRWxkZW4gbWVudGlvbmVkKSBhbmQg dGhlIFgyOWQgYW5kIGJvdGggc2hvd2VkIHRoZSB1bmRlcmZyYW1lcy4gVGhlIFgyOWIsIGFz IEkgcmVjYWxsIHdhcyByZWJ1aWx0IG9uIHRoZSBvbGQgWDI5IHVuZGVyZnJhbWVzIHdpdGgg c2xpZ2h0IG1vZGlmaWNhdGlvbnMsIGJ1dCB0aGUgWDI5ZCdzIHdlcmUgb24gYSByZXZpc2Vk IHVuZGVyZnJhbWUsIGJ1aWx0IHRvIGEgbW9yZSBtb2Rlcm4gc3RhbmRhcmQuIElmIEkgcmVj YWxsIGNvcnJlY3RseSwgdGhlIHJldmlzZWQgdW5kZXJmcmFtZSByZXRhaW5lZCB0aGUgc2Ft ZSB0cnVjayBjZW50ZXJzIGJ1dCByZXZpc2VkIGNyb3NzIGJlYXJlcnMsIGFzIGluIG1vdmVk IHRvIHRoZSBuZXcgZG9vciBqYW1icyAoYSA2LWZvb3QgY3Jvc3MgYmVhcmVyIGRvZXNuJ3Qg d29yayBmb3IgYW4gOC1mb290IGRvb3IpIGFuZCBtb3JlIGNyb3NzIGJlYXJlcnMgYmV0d2Vl biB0aGUgZG9vcnMgYW5kIHRoZSBib2xzdGVyLCB3aGljaCB3YXMgbm90IG1vdmVkLi4uICBB bHNvIHRoZSBzdHJpbmdlcnMgd2VyZSBjaGFuZ2VkIGZyb20gdHdvIG9uIGVhY2ggc2lkZSBv ZiB0aGUgY2VudGVyIHNpbGwgdG8gdGhyZWUgb24gZWFjaCBzaWRlLCB3aGljaCBtYWRlIGdv b2Qgc2Vuc2UgYXMgdGhpcyByZXZpc2lvbiB3YXMgbWFkZSBieSB0aGUgY2FyIGJ1aWxkZXJz IGFzIG1vcmUgZm9yayBsaWZ0cyB3ZXJlIGNvbWluZyBpbnRvIHVzZSBmb3IgbG9hZGluZyBh bmQgdW5sb2FkaW5nIGFuZCBzdGlmZmVyIGZsb29ycyB3ZXJlIHRoZSBvcmRlciBvZiB0aGUg ZGF5LiBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhlIHNob3RzIEkgcmV2aWV3ZWQgd2VyZSBmcm9tIHRoZSBIYWdl bHkgKHRoZW4gdGhlIEFMVE9PTkEgTGlicmFyeSkgYW5kIHdlcmUgcHVyY2hhc2VkIGJ5IG15 IGZyaWVuZCBKZWZmIEtvZWxsZXIgKHByZXZpb3VzIGVkaXRvciBhdCBNYWlubGluZSBNb2Rl bGVyKS4gCgpXZSBuZWVkIGEgZ29vZCBzdHlyZW5lIGtpdCBvZiB0aGUgWDI5IHJlYnVpbGRz IGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgdGhlIFVTUkEgcmVidWlsZHMsIHdoaWNoIGluIG91ciB0ZXJtcyB0cmFu c2xhdGVzIHRvIHRoZSBYMjYgcmVidWlsZHMuIChCVFcgUGVubnN5IHJlYnVpbHQgc29tZSBm b3IgdGhlIERUJkkgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgV2FiYXNoKSBISE1NTU1NTSB3aG8gc2hvdWxk IHdlIGhhdmUgdGFja2xlIHRoaXMgcHJvamVjdC4uLiBXaXRoIHNpbXBsZSBlbmQgc3dhcHMg YW5kIHJvb2YgcGFuZWwgc3dhcHMgc2V2ZXJhbCByYWlscm9hZHMgY291bGQgYmUgbW9kZWxl ZCBhcyBldmVuIHRoZSBQUlIgZW5kIHZhcmllZCBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIHJlYnVpbGQgcHJvZ3Jh bXMgYW5kIEkgd291bGQgYmUgaGFyZCBwcmVzc2VkIHRvIGZpZ3VyZSBvdXQgdGhlIGRpZmZl cmVuY2UgYmV0d2VlbiBhIDEwLTQgaW5zaWRlIGhlaWdodCBhbmQgYSAxMC02IGluc2lkZSBo ZWlnaHQsIGF0IGxlYXN0IGluIEhPIHNjYWxlLiBTb21lIGNhcnMgcmVjZWl2ZWQgU1RBTlJB WSBwYW5lbCByb29mcyBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIFNUQU5SQVkgZGlhZ29uYWwgcGFuZWwgcm9vZnMu IAoKSSB3b25kZXIganVzdCBob3cgbXVjaCBpbnRlcmVzdCB0aGVyZSBpcyBpbiB0aGUgcmVi dWlsdCBjYXJzLi4uSSB0aGluayBpdCBpcyBodWdlLiBJdCdzIGEgbXVzdCBoYXZlIGNhciBm b3IgbWUgYW5kIEkgd2lsbCBjaG9wIHVwIGEgQnJhbmNobGluZSBLaXQgKHVuZGVjJ3MgaGF2 ZSBhIHZhcmlldHkgb2YgZW5kcyBhbmQgYXQgbGVhc3QgdHdvIHJvb2ZzKWluIGEgaGVhcnRi ZWF0IHVubGVzcyBJIGNhbiBjb252aW5jZSBzb21lIHByb2R1Y2VyIHRvIG9mZmVyIHRoZSBj YXIgaW4ga2l0IGZvcm1hdC4uLi4gSnVzdCB0aGluayBhbiBYMjlkIGluIGJvdGggY29sb3Jz IG9mICJEb24ndCBTdGFuZCBNRSBTdGlsbCIuLi5vciBjYWxlbmRhciBsZXR0aW5nLCBvciBh biBYMjliIGluIE1lcmNoYW5kaXNlIFNlcnZpY2UgcGFpbnQgb3IgYWxsIHRoZSBwb3NzaWJs ZSByZXBhaW50cyBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIEJhbGwgS2V5c3RvbmUuIAoKQlRXIEkgaGF2ZSBpbmNs dWRlZCBhIHByb2R1Y2VyIGluIGEgYmxpbmQgbGlua3MgYW5kIGxldCdzIHNlZSB3aGF0IGtp bmQgb2YgcmVzcG9uc2Ugd2UgZ2V0Li4uIEFnYWluLCBsb3RzIG9mIHJvYWRzIHJlYnVpbHQg dGhlIFVTUkEgKFgyNiB0eXBlKSBjYXJzLiBQUlIsIERUJkksIFdBQkFTSCwgQVRTRi4uLmp1 c3QgdG8gbmFtZSBhIGZldy4gYW5kIHRoZSBib251cyByb3VuZCBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBQUlIg aGFkIGF0IGxlYXN0IGZvdXIgcGFpbnQgc2NoZW1lcyBvbiB0aGUgWDI5YiBhbmQgNiBmb3Ig dGhlIFgyOWQuLi4gSXQgY291bGQga2VlcCBhIHByb2R1Y2VyIGluIGNhc2ggZm9yIHF1aXRl IGEgbG9uZyB0aW1lLiAKCkdyZWcgTWFydGluIAogIAo= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:06:17 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Bruce and all, I shot phots of a Jet in Harrisburg at the roundhouse in the early 70's and it was there for passenger service. The shots were of my only B&W roll of film on the trip. It was not a very pretty sight I must admit, but PC was not good about keeping up paint on much of anything. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:03:54 -0400 Bruce Smith wrote: "I had a vague recollection that the EP-5s were mainly used on freight as well during the PC years...something from one of the PRR videos (Pennsy Racetrack?) with a black jet (YUCK)..." Took another look in Yanosey's PC Power - the EP-5s were reassigned to working New Jersey trains out of Morrisville after a rash of electrical fires caused by deferred maintenance (one within the confines of Grand Central during rush hour). Black with worms was a nominal improvement over one of the shots in the book, PC 4973 (ex-NH 374) in a very scabby McGuiness scheme with worms. "Of course, Brianna wants a NH I-5 4-6-4...how the heck am I gonna rationalize that?" Borrow a page out of Dave Messer's book with a PRR takeover of the New Haven? ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:33:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] delmarva division Gene asks for tower locations between Armstrong and Delmar; just reading from Timetable No. 21 (4/24/1966) (dunno where Armstrong is?), on the Delmarva Branch there were interlocking stations at Clayton, Harrington, Seaford, and Cassatt; and block stations at Tasker and Delmar (plus others remote-controlled from Delmar). Hope this helps, anyway it's a start! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor The PRR leased New Haven EP-5 370 for test between NY and Wash. DC. I think the run from NYC to DC was a bit too much for the New Haven EP-5. The "Jets" couldn't run at 90mph for long like our beloved GG1. The EP-5 did have a nice carbody though. Imagine one in DGLE with a broad yellow stripe and large Keystone. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] C&BT X29b Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:27:32 -0400 Greg Martin wrote: "We need a good styrene kit of the X29 rebuilds as well as the USRA rebuilds, which in our terms translates to the X26 rebuilds. (BTW Pennsy rebuilt some for the DT&I as well as the Wabash) <> With simple end swaps and roof panel swaps several railroads could be modeled as even the PRR end varied during the rebuild programs and I would be hard pressed to figure out the difference between a 10-4 inside height and a 10-6 inside height, at least in HO scale." "Again, lots of roads rebuilt the USRA (X26 type) cars. PRR, DT&I, WABASH, ATSF...just to name a few, and the bonus round is that the PRR had at least four paint schemes on the X29b and 6 for the X29d." Careful, Greg - you just can't lump all rebuilt boxcars together and expect one kit to cover them all. For example, here are the details for the cars rebuilt by the roads you named: PRR Class X29B Original Car: PRR Class X29 Sides: 10-panel Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (early) Door: 8 ft Youngstown Side sill brackets: T-section Roof: STANRAY rectangular panel/diagonal panel IH: 10'6" PRR Class X29D Original Car: PRR Class X29 Sides: 10-panel Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (late) Door: 8 ft Youngstown Side sill brackets: T-section Roof: STANRAY diagonal panel ("overhanging") IH: 10'6" PRR Class X26C (DT&I, WAB) Original Car: Class X26 (USRA SS) Sides: 10-panel Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy with panels increasing height/width Door: 7 ft Youngstown Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal Roof: STANRAY rectangular panel/diagonal panel IH: 10'5" DT&I 11500-11799 Original Car: USRA DS Sides: 8-panel Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy Door: 6 ft Youngstown Side sill brackets: Triangular Roof: 15 U-section steel rib radial roof IH: 9' WAB (6 series) Original Cars: 3 series of USRA DS "Clone" 1 1/2 door auto boxcars Sides: 8-panel Ends: 3/7/8, 7/8 Murphy Door: 6 ft Youngstown Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal Roof: Murphy rectangular panel IH: 10', 10'4" ATSF Classes Bx-28, Bx-31, Bx-32, Bx-33, Bx-36 Original Cars: USRA DS (ATSF Class Bx-2) Sides: 10-panel Ends: 1/5/5/5 or 2/5/5/5 Murphy Door: 6 ft Youngstown Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal Roof: Murphy rectangular panel IH: 10', 10'4" As you can see, the differences extend between 10'4" and 10'6" inside heights. We can group the rebuilds into several groups of similar cars, but you're kidding everyone if you think one or two sets of tooling will cover all the variations. You'll end up producing a hermaphrodite like the Atlas O Scale or S Helper Service "Rebuilt Boxcar" - a model which attempts to match everything which in the end matches nothing. "I wonder just how much interest there is in the rebuilt cars...I think it is huge. It's a must have car for me and I will chop up a Branchline Kit (undec's have a variety of ends and at least two roofs)in a heartbeat unless I can convince some producer to offer the car in kit format.... Just think an X29d in both colors of "Don't Stand ME Still"...or calendar letting, or an X29b in Merchandise Service paint or all the possible repaints beyond the Ball Keystone." I agree - I think it's excellent for the X29B/X29D. I just think doing a "Red Caboose" and offering this kit in a bunch of bogus paint schemes is wrong and in the end, will lock out the market for accurate models of the other variations of rebuilt boxcars. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 03:33:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C&BT X29b --part1_1e3.f701e54.2c899666_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben and all, I wrote... >>With simple end swaps and roof panel swaps several railroads could be modeled as even the PRR ends varied during the rebuild programs and I would be hard pressed to figure out the difference between a 10-4 inside height and a 10-6 inside height, at least in HO scale.<< Then Ben Writes: > Careful, Greg - you just can't lump all rebuilt boxcars together and expect > one kit to cover them all. For example, here are the details for the cars > rebuilt by the roads you named: > > PRR Class X29B > Original Car: PRR Class X29 > Sides: 10-panel > Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (early) I never could figure out why some start at the top and counted down. I wonder if they do the same on a multistory building shouldn't this be 4/3/r or 4/3/1 as it used to be called until I think it was Jim Eager changed it? HHMMMMM top down??? > Door: 8 ft Youngstown Check this Ben, I am sure you meant 7-foot door Youngstown light weight. > Side sill brackets: T-section > Roof: STANRAY rectangular panel/diagonal panel > IH: 10'6" Yea one of my favorite cars... Here is why you tool two or three roofs. > PRR Class X29D > Original Car: PRR Class X29 > Sides: 10-panel > Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (late) > Door: 8 ft Youngstown > Side sill brackets: T-section > Roof: STANRAY diagonal panel ("overhanging") > IH: 10'6" These cars are undoubtedly stand alone cars or at least I am not familiar with to many other roads that went as far as the PRR with the rebuilds, remember the under frames are PRR designs... But you can cover a couple other later X29 classes as well. Now you have tooled a side with 10 panels in both and 7& 8-foot opening hold on, can we use the side elsewhere sure we can, follow along... PRR Class X26C (DT&I, WAB)> > Original Car: Class X26 (USRA SS) > Sides: 10-panel Side from the X29B 7-foot door 10 panels > Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy with panels increasing height/width Ah ha new ends... > Door: 7 ft Youngstown X29B > Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal Underframe separate... > Roof: STANRAY rectangular panel/diagonal panel We have these covered X29B... > IH: 10'5" Yes, but a basic body gives you a good stating point, but then there is that darn 7-foot door that limits it to only those rebuilds with 7-foot doors ... more research is needed because if the end and roof can swap out, now that really makes this plausible. Here are a few that need some further research, MWR 1300 series, L&C 601series, Santa Fe rebuilds such as BX 37 thru 41 and then the later BX-85'sa and their plug doors mid 60s rebuilds. There are more roads as well but it would take some serious study to get them all. > DT&I 11500-11799 > Original Car: USRA DS > Sides: 8-panel > Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy > Door: 6 ft Youngstown > Side sill brackets: Triangular > Roof: 15 U-section steel rib radial roof > IH: 9' > > WAB (6 series) > Original Cars: 3 series of USRA DS "Clone" 1 1/2 door auto boxcars > Sides: 8-panel > Ends: 3/7/8, 7/8 Murphy > Door: 6 ft Youngstown > Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal > Roof: Murphy rectangular panel > IH: 10', 10'4" > > ATSF Classes Bx-28, Bx-31, Bx-32, Bx-33, BX-36 > Original Cars: USRA DS (ATSF Class BX-2) > Sides: 10-panel > Ends: 1/5/5/5 or 2/5/5/5 Murphy > Door: 6 ft Youngstown > Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal > Roof: Murphy rectangular panel > IH: 10', 10'4" Correct Ben there are nearly as many rebuilt USRA DS rebuilds as there were SS rebuilds. Good idea! Aren't the CMO 1600 series cars rebuilt DS cars, with 6-foot Youngstown door, with a 5/5/B/5 end configuration, bottom up... 3^) > As you can see, the differences extend between 10'4" and 10'6" inside > heights. We can group the rebuilds into several groups of similar cars, but > you're kidding everyone if you think one or two sets of tooling will cover all the > variations. You'll end up producing a hermaphrodite like the Atlas O Scale > or S Helper Service "Rebuilt Boxcar" - a model which attempts to match > everything which in the end matches nothing. Ben your right a company could fall into the trap of not doing the research and making some kind of half-assed mixture of cars. But don't forget rebuilding of cars was a trend using similar industry standards during the period just before W.W.II and right afterwards until the Government removed the tax advantage of doing so, you know after about 1948 Uncle Sam said just because you rebuilt it doesn't mean you don't have to capitalize it... 3^) So while the fun lasted rebuilding practices were very similar. > >I wonder just how much interest there is in the rebuilt cars...I think it > is huge. It's a must have car for me and I will chop up a Branchline Kit > (undec's have a variety of ends and at least two roofs) in a heartbeat unless I > can persuade some producer to offer the car in kit format.... Just think an > X29D in both colors of "Don't Stand ME Still"...or calendar letting, or an X29B > in Merchandise Service paint or all the possible repaints beyond the Ball > Keystone."< Hey I wrote that! > I agree - I think it's excellent for the X29B/X29D. I just think doing a > "Red Caboose" and offering this kit in a bunch of bogus paint schemes is wrong > and in the end, will lock out the market for accurate models of the other > variations of rebuilt boxcars. > > Ben Hom While I don't advocate lettering car in a "Bogus" paint scheme, I don't condemn the practice either, these producers need to do what it takes to pay for the tooling. If I need to know whether or not a particle car is correct for the paint scheme I do the research if it turns up I can find it on my own, then I know where to ask. I am simply saying that Box is the BASIC and the underframe and the other issues like roofs and ends can be the variable. Greg Martin --part1_1e3.f701e54.2c899666_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ben and all,

I wrote...

>>With simple end swap= s and roof panel swaps several railroads could be modeled as even the PRR en= ds varied during the rebuild programs and I would be hard pressed to figure=20= out the difference between a 10-4 inside height and a 10-6 inside height, at= least in HO scale.<<

Then Ben Writes:

Careful, Greg - you just can't=20= lump all rebuilt boxcars together and expect one kit to cover them all. = ; For example, here are the details for the cars rebuilt by the roads you na= med:

PRR Class X29B
Original Car: PRR Class X29
Sides: 10-panel
Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (early)

I never could=20= figure out why some start at the top and counted down. I wonder if they do t= he same on a multistory building shouldn't this be 4/3/r or 4/3/1 as it used= to be called until I think it was Jim Eager changed it? HHMMMMM top d= own???

Door: 8 ft Youngstown

Check this Ben= , I am sure you meant 7-foot door Youngstown light weight.

Side sill brackets: T-sec= tion
Roof: STANRAY rectangular panel/diagonal panel
IH: 10'6"

Yea one of my=20= favorite cars... Here is why you tool two or three roofs.

PRR Class X29D
Original Car: PRR Class X29
Sides: 10-panel
Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (late

Door: 8 ft Youngstown
Side sill brackets: T-section
Roof: STANRAY diagonal panel ("overhanging")
IH: 10'6"

These cars are= undoubtedly stand alone cars or at least I am not familiar with to many oth= er roads that went as far as the PRR with the rebuilds, remember the under f= rames are PRR designs... But you can cover a couple other later X29 classes=20= as well. Now you have tooled a side with 10 panels in both and 7&8= -foot opening hold on, can we use the side elsewhere sure we can, follow alo= ng...

PRR Class X26C (DT&I, WA= B)

Original Car: Class X26 (USRA SS)
Sides: 10-panel

=

Side from the=20= X29B 7-foot door 10 panels

Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy with panels=20= increasing height/width

Ah ha new ends= ...

Door: 7 ft Youngstown

X29B

Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal=

Underframe sep= arate...

Roof: STANRAY rectangular panel= /diagonal panel
=

We have these=20= covered X29B...

IH: 10'5"

Yes, but a bas= ic body gives you a good stating point, but then there is that darn 7-foot d= oor that limits it to only those rebuilds with 7-foot doors ... more researc= h is needed because if the end and roof can swap out, now that really makes=20= this plausible. Here are a few that need some further research, MWR 13= 00 series, L&C 601series, Santa Fe rebuilds such as BX 37 thru 41 and th= en the later BX-85'sa and their plug doors mid 60s rebuilds. There are more=20= roads as well but it would take some serious study to get them all. <= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

DT&I 11500-11799
Original Car: USRA DS
Sides: 8-panel
Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy
Door: 6 ft Youngstown
Side sill brackets: Triangular
Roof: 15 U-section steel rib radial roof
IH: 9'

WAB (6 series)
Original Cars: 3 series of USRA DS "Clone" 1 1/2 door auto boxcars
Sides: 8-panel
Ends: 3/7/8, 7/8 Murphy
Door: 6 ft Youngstown
Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal
Roof: Murphy rectangular panel
IH: 10', 10'4"

ATSF Classes Bx-28, Bx-31, Bx-32, Bx-33, BX-36
Original Cars: USRA DS (ATSF Class BX-2)
Sides: 10-panel
Ends: 1/5/5/5 or 2/5/5/5 Murphy
Door: 6 ft Youngstown
Side sill brackets: Trapezoidal
Roof: Murphy rectangular panel
IH: 10', 10'4"
<= BR>

Correct Ben there are nearly= as many rebuilt USRA DS rebuilds as there were SS rebuilds. Good idea! = ; Aren't the CMO 1600 series cars rebuilt DS cars, with 6-foot Youngstown do= or, with a 5/5/B/5 end configuration, bottom up... 3^)

As you can see, the differences extend between 10'4" and 10= '6" inside heights. We can group the rebuilds into several groups of s= imilar cars, but you're kidding everyone if you think one or two sets of too= ling will cover all the variations. You'll end up producing a hermaphr= odite like the Atlas O Scale or S Helper Service "Rebuilt Boxcar" - a model=20= which attempts to match everything which in the end matches nothing.<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

Ben your right= a company could fall into the trap of not doing the research and making som= e kind of half-assed mixture of cars. But don't forget rebuilding of c= ars was a trend using similar industry standards during the period just befo= re W.W.II and right afterwards until the Government removed the tax advantag= e of doing so, you know after about 1948 Uncle Sam said just because you reb= uilt it doesn't mean you don't have to capitalize it... 3^) So while the fun= lasted rebuilding practices were very similar.

>I wonder just how much interest there is in the rebuilt= cars...I think it is huge. It's a must have car for me and I will chop up a= Branchline Kit (undec's have a variety of ends and at least two roofs) in a= heartbeat unless I can persuade some producer to offer the car in kit forma= t.... Just think an X29D in both colors of "Don't Stand ME Still"...or calen= dar letting, or an X29B in Merchandise Service paint or all the possible rep= aints beyond the Ball Keystone."<

Hey I wrote th= at!

I agree - I think it's excellent for the X29B/X29D. I= just think doing a "Red Caboose" and offering this kit in a bunch of bogus=20= paint schemes is wrong and in the end, will lock out the market for accurate= models of the other variations of rebuilt boxcars.

Ben Hom

While I don't advocate lettering car in a "Bogus" paint scheme, I don't cond= emn the practice either, these producers need to do what it takes to pay for= the tooling. If I need to know whether or not a particle car is corre= ct for the paint scheme I do the research if it turns up I can find it on my= own, then I know where to ask.

I am simply saying that Box is the BASIC and the underframe and the other is= sues like roofs and ends can be the variable.

Greg Martin --part1_1e3.f701e54.2c899666_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:10:26 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] delmarva division This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_utV2VThZ5Kxyg54SriTyhA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Armstrong and Delmar; just reading from Timetable No. 21 (4/24/1966) (dunno where Armstrong is?), on the Delmarva Branch there were interlocking stations at Clayton, Harrington, Seaford, and Cassatt; and block stations at Tasker and Delmar (plus others remote-controlled from Delmar). According to Delmarva Div. TT # 10, 9/26/48, Block Stations were located at: Bank mp 2.1, Tasker mp 6.5, Arms (mp 22.7 (2.8 miles south of Canal Drawbridge), Townsend mp 29.0, Clayton mp 36.8, Holly mp 48.9, Harrington mp 64.4, Greenwood mp 72.4, Seaford mp 84.2, and Delmar mp 97.3. All mp distances were from Wilmington. Tasker, Townsend, Greemwood, and Delmar were Block stations only, while the rest were also Interlockings and Interlocking Stations. There were two 109 car sidings at Arms, two 80+ car sidings at Holly, 72 car and 133 car sidings at Harrington, and 100 car + sidings at Greenwood. Townsend and Greenwood were part time block stations, the rest were open continuously. I presume that Arms is Armstrong, as that was usual PRR practice, even on the Delmarva, (which is and was a world unto itself in many respects). There is no TT reference to Armstrong as such, only to "Arms". This information changed rapidly, into the 50's and 60's as passenger services ended, and tracks were removed. JW --Boundary_(ID_utV2VThZ5Kxyg54SriTyhA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Armstrong and Delmar; just reading from Timetable No. 21 (4/24/1966) (dunno where Armstrong is?), on the Delmarva Branch there were interlocking stations at Clayton, Harrington, Seaford, and Cassatt; and block stations at Tasker and Delmar (plus others remote-controlled from Delmar).

According to Delmarva Div. TT # 10, 9/26/48, Block Stations were located at: Bank mp 2.1, Tasker mp 6.5, Arms (mp 22.7 (2.8 miles south of Canal Drawbridge), Townsend mp 29.0, Clayton mp 36.8, Holly mp 48.9, Harrington mp 64.4, Greenwood mp 72.4, Seaford mp 84.2, and Delmar mp 97.3.

All mp distances were from Wilmington.

Tasker, Townsend, Greemwood, and Delmar were Block stations only, while the rest were also Interlockings and Interlocking Stations.

There were two 109 car sidings at Arms, two 80+ car sidings at Holly, 72 car and 133 car sidings at Harrington, and 100 car + sidings at Greenwood.

Townsend and Greenwood were part time block stations, the rest were open continuously.

I presume that Arms is Armstrong, as that was usual PRR practice, even on the Delmarva, (which is and was a world unto itself in many respects).

There is no TT reference to Armstrong as such, only to “Arms”.

This information changed rapidly, into the 50’s and 60’s as passenger services ended, and tracks were removed.

JW

--Boundary_(ID_utV2VThZ5Kxyg54SriTyhA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:37:36 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] delmarva division Hmm, by 1966 Arms had vanished from the timetable. Stations in that area read (distance from Wilmington): 18.3 Canal Movable Bridge 20.6 Mt. Pleasant 24.8 Middletown 29.0 Townsend . . . John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:54:48 +0000 Dave wrote: >"The EP-5 did have a nice carbody though. Imagine one in DGLE with a >broad yellow stripe and large Keystone." I agree (I think that Lionel did that with their 4-axle "EP-5"). However, I have always liked the "Little Joes" that went to the South Shore and the Milwaukee when the cold war began. It would have been neat to see a Little Joe in DGLE with the 5-stripe whiskers. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:21:01 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor Why not? AHM did the GG-1 in Milwaukee, NH, GN, VGN, NYC, an I think IRT, and MBTA ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ted Andrews wrote: > Dave wrote: > > >"The EP-5 did have a nice carbody though. Imagine one in DGLE with a > >broad yellow stripe and large Keystone." > > I agree (I think that Lionel did that with their 4-axle "EP-5"). However, I > have always liked the "Little Joes" that went to the South Shore and the > Milwaukee when the cold war began. It would have been neat to see a Little > Joe in DGLE with the 5-stripe whiskers. > > Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:40:30 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor > Why not? AHM did the GG-1 in Milwaukee, NH, GN, VGN, NYC, an I think IRT, > and MBTA ;-) Oooookay. Ob Serious Comment: Looked for my EP 5 book, could not find... Following the thread: A modeling friend, from UK, has typical Boston MBTA power and coaches repainted for NSE (London Commuter) Service. I've a random Marklin Catalog, with their NH EP-5 (i think): the Cute/relevant Part is that the Scenery is Southwest US Desert: The US Is The Land Of Comboys and Indians. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:49:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] Business car confusion --part1_f.1859264c.2c89fc89_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/03 1:12:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Primary, secondary and tertiary data > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:45:49 -0400 > > RE: Just today a subscriber posted a list of business cars that was > listed in Pennsy Journal 20 years ago. All that was stated was factual > information. > > It might be a factual quote from the magazine, but it's really what I > would consider a tertiary source. As such it may or may not be truly > factual. The only true primary factual information is that which is seen > in PRR documents (memos, letters, forms, tables, charts, diagrams, etc.) > and even then some are know to have mistakes. > > Al Al, I beg definitions here -- 1. I've always assumed that PRIMARY is company documents. And yes, some company documents, even those supposedly generated onsite when work was done, can be found to contradict others. 2. I've always assumed that secondary means that someone rounded up primary data and tried to present it in a way that made sense. We usually call the people that do this analysts and historians. 3. That would leave me to believe tertiary data is history as told by reading only secondary sources -- sort of like schoolboy railroad history. I strongly value integrity in data. So those who patiently and intelligently paw through primary sources are my heros. But I also respect what Pennsy Journal and Rails Northeast were attempting -- maybe not all the info was well-digested and crosschecked by teams of experts, but the quantity of maps, drawings, and other goodies that got published was exhilarating for that time. Al's point (I hope) is that in future years, with the PRRTHS archives, some much better work can be done on all kinds of subjects, including the history of business cars. Over the years, I've indexed a number of listings on business cars (including the Pennsy Journal listing referred to). I append my list below -- consider it not factual, but an indication of how chaotic the history of business cars were -- it seems they were transferred a lot. And every time they moved, they were renamed (though not renumbered). Car number Class Car name Action 30 Harrisburg 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journ 37 PCC&StL 37 "truss rod (Wayner p20) ""Pennsylvania Lines"" on letterboard" 60 Wilmington 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 90 Z74B Delaware 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 90 Delaware 1953 System pool Philadelphia68 at Morrisville PA (CG1 p36) (second 90, an ex-B&O car) 90 Delaware 1955 System pool Philadelphia 90 Delaware 1968 at Morrisville PA (CG1 p36) (second 90, an ex-B&O car) 100 Z74D New York 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 100 Z74D New Yorker 1951 stored NY 100 Z74D New Yorker 1955 still stored NY 100 Chesapeake 1960 at Baltimore (CG1 p36) 120 Z74D none listed 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 1953 assigned to PRR President at Philadelphia 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 1955 assigned to PRR President at Philadelphia 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 1962 at Penn Coach Yard (CG1 p36) 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 2000 seen at Newark (owned/operated by Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal) 170 Newark 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 180 Z74C Pennsylvania 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 180 Z74C Philadelphia 1952 System pool Phila 180 Z74C Philadelphia 1955 System pool Phila 180 Z74C Philadelphia 1962 at Glenolden Pa (CG1 p37) 180 Z74C Philadelphia 1963 at Penn Coach Yard (CG1 p37) 180 Z74C Philadelphia 1964 at Philadephia (CG2 p21) 180 Z74C Philadelphia scrapped, trucks to Juniata Terminal (per B. Levin) 450 Delmarva 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 1000 Z85 from Adolphus 1962 est, Bill Volkmer shot (CG2 p22). Fluted-side 1027 Cleveland 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 2000 Montauk 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 2200 Long Island 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 3998 none listed 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 3999 Baltimore 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7501 St. Louis 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7502 Z74 Washington 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1940?at Chicago (p86) 7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1954 assigned Western Region VP Chicago 7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1955 assigned Western Region VP Chicago 7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1962 at Chicago (CG2 p21) 7503 Z74 Duquesne 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7503 Z74 Harrisburg 1951 Eastern Region Staff at Phila 7503 Z74 Harrisburg 1955 Eastern Region Staff at Phila 7504 none listed 1919 or before, lettered Pennsylvania Lines 7504 Z74D Quaker City 1927 (blt Altoona) 7504 Z74D none listed 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7504 Z74D Quaker City 1936 (air conditioned Altoona) 7504 Z74D Baltimore 1951 VP Phila 7504 Z74D Baltimore 1954 (renamed) 7504 Z74D Baltimore 1955 VP Phila 7504 Z74D Wm. Penn 1960 (renamed) 7504 Z74D Wm. Penn 2001 donated to Camp Atterbury IN by Juniata Terminal 7504 Z74D Wm. Penn Wayner p20 7505 Z74 Maryland 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7505 Z74 Maryland 1945 GM Phila 7505 Z74 Maryland 1955 GM Phila 7506 Z74 Illinois 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7506 Z74 Illinois 1954 assigned GM Chicago 7506 Z74 Illinois 1955 assigned GM Chicago 7507 Z74D Philadelphia 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7507 Z74D Quaker City 1945 System pool at Phila 7507 Z74D Quaker City 1948 System pool at Phila 7507 Z74D Quaker City 1966 in Winters shot (CG2 p22) 7507 Z74D Pennsylvania Wayner p78 7508 Z74A Chicago 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7508 Z74A Washington 1950 stored Phila 7508 Z74A Washington 1955 stored Phila 7509 Z74D Ohio 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7509 Z74D Ohio 1952 Sys pool Phila 7509 Z74D Ohio 1955 Sys pool Phila 7510 Z74D New Jersey 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7510 Z74D Pittsburgher 1953 assigned to Central VP at Pittsburgh 7510 Z74D Pittsburgher 1955 assigned to Central VP at Pittsburgh 7510 Z74D Pittsburgher 1967 at Baltimore 7510 Pittsburgher H. Maywald photo at Clagg (Louisville), 3 line painting, p85? 7511 Z74E The Pittsburgher 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7511 Z74E The Duquesne 1952 asigned to GM at Pittsburgh 7511 Z74E The Duquesne 1955 asigned to GM at Pittsburgh 7511 Z74E The Duquesne Wayner p20, PJ 1-4 7515 Z68 Indiana 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7515 Z68 Indiana 1953 stored at Columbus (St. Clair Avenue or Leonard Avenue shops?) 7515 Z68 Indiana 1955 stored at Columbus (St. Clair Avenue or Leonard Avenue shops?) 7516 Z68 Johnstown 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7516 Z68 Johnstown 1949 stored Pittsburgh 7516 Z68 Johnstown 1955 stored Pittsburgh 7517 Z68 Canton 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7517 Z68 Buffalo 1945 assigned to Central Region staff, Pittsburgh 7517 Z68 Buffalo 1955 assigned to Central Region staff, Pittsburgh 7525 Z62 Lancaster 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7526 Z62 The Altoonan 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7527 Z62 Wheeling 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7528 Z62 Greensburg 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7528 Z62 Dearborn modified by DT&I 7529 Z62 Youngstown 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7530 Z62 Ft. Wayne 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7530 Z62 Williamsport 1947 stored at Wilmington 7530 Z62 Williamsport 1955 stored at Wilmington 7530 Z62 Williamsport 1962 at Wilmington Shops (CG1 p37) 7530 Z62 Williamsport 1968 at ORM 7530 Z62 Williamsport donated to Ohio Railway Museum 7530 Z62 Fort Wayne first 7530 Z62 Buffalo second 7531 Z62 Columbus 1928 BEING OUTSHOPPED, 11 berths 7531 Z62 Columbus 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7531 Z62 Cape Charles 1949 stored at Wilmington 7531 Z62 Cape Charles 1955 stored at Wilmington 8380 Williamsport 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 8381 Toledo 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 8382 Indianapolis 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 8383 Buffalo 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 8731 Olean 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 9802 Susquehanna 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_f.1859264c.2c89fc89_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/5/03 1:12:22 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Primary, secondary and= tertiary data
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:45:49 -0400

RE:   Just today a subscriber posted a list of business cars that=20= was
listed in Pennsy Journal 20 years ago. All that was stated was factual
information.

It might be a factual quote from the magazine, but it's really what I
would consider a tertiary source. As such it may or may not be truly
factual. The only true primary factual information is that which is seen
in PRR documents (memos, letters, forms, tables, charts, diagrams, etc.)
and even then some are know to have mistakes.

Al

Al,

I beg definitions here --
1. I've always assumed that PRIMARY is company documents. And yes, som= e company documents, even those supposedly generated onsite when work was do= ne, can be found to contradict others.

2. I've always assumed that secondary means that someone rounded up primary=20= data and tried to present it in a way that made sense. We usually call= the people that do this analysts and historians.

3. That would leave me to believe tertiary data is history as told by=20= reading only secondary sources -- sort of like schoolboy railroad history.
I strongly value integrity in data. So those who patiently and intelli= gently paw through primary sources are my heros. But I also respect wh= at Pennsy Journal and Rails Northeast were attempting -- maybe not all the i= nfo was well-digested and crosschecked by teams of experts, but the quantity= of maps, drawings, and other goodies that got published was exhilarating fo= r that time.

Al's point (I hope) is that in future years, with the PRRTHS archives, some=20= much better work can be done on all kinds of subjects, including the history= of business cars.

Over the years, I've indexed a number of listings on business cars (includin= g the Pennsy Journal listing referred to). I append my list below -- c= onsider it not factual, but an indication of how chaotic the history of busi= ness cars were -- it seems they were transferred a lot. And every time= they moved, they were renamed (though not renumbered).

Car number Class Car name Action
30 Harrisburg 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journ
37 PCC&StL 37 "truss rod (Wayner p20) ""Pennsylvania Lines"" on le= tterboard"
60 Wilmington 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
90 Z74B Delaware 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 90 Delaware 1953 System pool Philadelphia68 at Morrisville PA (CG1 p= 36) (second 90, an ex-B&O car)
90 Delaware 1955 System pool Philadelphia
90 Delaware 1968 at Morrisville PA (CG1 p36) (second 90, an ex-B&= ;O car)
100 Z74D New York 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 100 Z74D New Yorker 1951 stored NY
100 Z74D New Yorker 1955 still stored NY
100 Chesapeake 1960 at Baltimore (CG1 p36)
120 Z74D none listed 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 1953 assigned to PRR President at Philadelphia 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 1955 assigned to PRR President at Philadelphia 120 Z74D Pennsylvania 1962 at Penn Coach Yard (CG1 p36)
120 Z74D Pennsylvania 2000 seen at Newark (owned/operated by Bennett L= evin's Juniata Terminal)
170 Newark 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
180 Z74C Pennsylvania 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journa= l?
180 Z74C Philadelphia 1952 System pool Phila
180 Z74C Philadelphia 1955 System pool Phila
180 Z74C Philadelphia 1962 at Glenolden Pa (CG1 p37)
180 Z74C Philadelphia 1963 at Penn Coach Yard (CG1 p37)
180 Z74C Philadelphia 1964 at Philadephia (CG2 p21)
180 Z74C Philadelphia scrapped, trucks to Juniata Terminal (per B. Lev= in)
450 Delmarva 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
1000 Z85 from Adolphus 1962 est, Bill Volkmer shot (CG2 p22). Flu= ted-side
1027 Cleveland 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 2000 Montauk 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
2200 Long Island 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 3998 none listed 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 3999 Baltimore 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7501 St. Louis 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7502 Z74 Washington 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1940?at Chicago (p86)
7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1954 assigned Western Region VP Chicago
7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1955 assigned Western Region VP Chicago
7502 Z74C Chicagoan 1962 at Chicago (CG2 p21)
7503 Z74 Duquesne 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7503 Z74 Harrisburg 1951 Eastern Region Staff at Phila
7503 Z74 Harrisburg 1955 Eastern Region Staff at Phila
7504 none listed 1919 or before, lettered Pennsylvania Lines
7504 Z74D Quaker City 1927 (blt Altoona)
7504 Z74D none listed 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journa= l?
7504 Z74D Quaker City 1936 (air conditioned Altoona)
7504 Z74D Baltimore 1951 VP Phila
7504 Z74D Baltimore 1954 (renamed)
7504 Z74D Baltimore 1955 VP Phila
7504 Z74D Wm. Penn 1960 (renamed)
7504 Z74D Wm. Penn 2001 donated to Camp Atterbury IN by Juniata Ter= minal
7504 Z74D Wm. Penn Wayner p20
7505 Z74 Maryland 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7505 Z74 Maryland 1945 GM Phila
7505 Z74 Maryland 1955 GM Phila
7506 Z74 Illinois 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7506 Z74 Illinois 1954 assigned GM Chicago
7506 Z74 Illinois 1955 assigned GM Chicago
7507 Z74D Philadelphia 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Jo= urnal?
7507 Z74D Quaker City 1945 System pool at Phila
7507 Z74D Quaker City 1948 System pool at Phila
7507 Z74D Quaker City 1966 in Winters shot (CG2 p22)
7507 Z74D Pennsylvania Wayner p78
7508 Z74A Chicago 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7508 Z74A Washington 1950 stored Phila
7508 Z74A Washington 1955 stored Phila
7509 Z74D Ohio 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7509 Z74D Ohio 1952 Sys pool Phila
7509 Z74D Ohio 1955 Sys pool Phila
7510 Z74D New Jersey 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journa= l?
7510 Z74D Pittsburgher 1953 assigned to Central VP at Pittsburgh 7510 Z74D Pittsburgher 1955 assigned to Central VP at Pittsburgh 7510 Z74D Pittsburgher 1967 at Baltimore
7510 Pittsburgher H. Maywald photo at Clagg (Louisville), 3 line p= ainting, p85?
7511 Z74E The Pittsburgher 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Penns= y Journal?
7511 Z74E The Duquesne 1952 asigned to GM at Pittsburgh
7511 Z74E The Duquesne 1955 asigned to GM at Pittsburgh
7511 Z74E The Duquesne Wayner p20, PJ 1-4
7515 Z68 Indiana 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
7515 Z68 Indiana 1953 stored at Columbus (St. Clair Avenue or Leonard Ave= nue shops?)
7515 Z68 Indiana 1955 stored at Columbus (St. Clair Avenue or Leonard Ave= nue shops?)
7516 Z68 Johnstown 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7516 Z68 Johnstown 1949 stored Pittsburgh
7516 Z68 Johnstown 1955 stored Pittsburgh
7517 Z68 Canton 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
7517 Z68 Buffalo 1945 assigned to Central Region staff, Pittsburgh
7517 Z68 Buffalo 1955 assigned to Central Region staff, Pittsburgh
7525 Z62 Lancaster 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7526 Z62 The Altoonan 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journa= l?
7527 Z62 Wheeling 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7528 Z62 Greensburg 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7528 Z62 Dearborn modified by DT&I
7529 Z62 Youngstown 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7530 Z62 Ft. Wayne 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7530 Z62 Williamsport 1947 stored at Wilmington
7530 Z62 Williamsport 1955 stored at Wilmington
7530 Z62 Williamsport 1962 at Wilmington Shops (CG1 p37)
7530 Z62 Williamsport 1968 at ORM
7530 Z62 Williamsport donated to Ohio Railway Museum
7530 Z62 Fort Wayne first
7530 Z62 Buffalo second
7531 Z62 Columbus 1928 BEING OUTSHOPPED, 11 berths
7531 Z62 Columbus 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal? 7531 Z62 Cape Charles 1949 stored at Wilmington
7531 Z62 Cape Charles 1955 stored at Wilmington
8380 Williamsport 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journa= l?
8381 Toledo 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
8382 Indianapolis 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journa= l?
8383 Buffalo 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
8731 Olean 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
9802 Susquehanna 1931 Business Car Assignments, p26 Pennsy Journal?
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_f.1859264c.2c89fc89_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:10:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Long Beach Island Stations From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com Fellow Listpersons; Help!! I found out last night that the lovely young lady and I are about to spend a post-season week-end on LBI. I'm afraid she is of the mistaken belief that there is no railfanning that I can do there. I know the location of the Barnegate Light Station from past years and I know there are some others still extant but I am not certain of the locations. An inquiry at the Princeton Public Library indicates that their copy of Brinkman's "The Tuckerton Railroad " has either taken a walk or died of old age. If anybody knows the locations ( the approximate cross streets or even just the town will do) of any of the existing artifacts I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks, Mike Allen ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] C&BT X29b Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:27:48 +0000 Greg Martin wrote: "I am simply saying that Box is the BASIC and the underframe and the other issues like roofs and ends can be the variable." And what I'm trying to point out is that the basic box is only good for groups of cars within an IH range of 1-3." IH is important for all house car models - you don't notice the discrepancies until you put cars together in a train or yard. Those 6-18" differences in height jump out in the big picture and is one of the hallmarks of a steam era freight train. BTW, thanks for the saves on the X29B and X26C door widths - way too much cut and paste in the last post. "I never could figure out why some start at the top and counted down. I wonder if they do the same on a multistory building shouldn't this be 4/3/r or 4/3/1 as it used to be called until I think it was Jim Eager changed it? HHMMMMM top down???" In the Navy, we do both - increasing numbers going up above the main deck of a ship (01, 02, ... Levels) and increasing numbers going below (1st, 2nd, ... Decks). Besides, from the modeler's viewpoint, top down works. Besides, if it's good enough for Richard Hendrickson, it's good enough for me. "These cars are undoubtedly stand alone cars or at least I am not familiar with to many other roads that went as far as the PRR with the rebuilds, remember the under frames are PRR designs... But you can cover a couple other later X29 classes as well." The only other road who went this far was KCS, who rebuilt 92 USRA DS cars in a similar manner, retaining the fishbelly underframe. "...a basic body gives you a good stating point, but then there is that darn 7-foot door that limits it to only those rebuilds with 7-foot doors ... more research is needed because if the end and roof can swap out, now that really makes this plausible." The X29B and X26C can be tooled around the same 10-panel sides. Everything else can swap out. BTW, you would have to tool sides sills separately as triangular and trapezoidal brackets were used irregardless of type of underframe if you want to use this tooling beyond the X29B and X26C. "Here are a few that need some further research," "MWR 1300 series, "L&C 601 series" The MWR cars are ex-C&O SS rebuilds, I think. I have photos of both series of cars but haven't run down exactly where they came from, as I've been putting off trying to make sense of the "Rolling Junk" leasing craze of the 1960s. "Santa Fe rebuilds such as BX 37 thru 41" NO! Bx-37 is a pre-war 40 ft AAR boxcar (Intermountain); Bx-38 and -39 are 40 and 50 ft War Emergency cars (Sunshine), and Bx-40 are ex-Class Fe-R 50 ft rebuilt cars (P2K kitbash). You really mean ATSF Classes Bx-41, -42, -45, and -46, rebuilt from Class Bx-8, -9, and -10 ARA DS boxcars. (See http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/hendrickson/index.htm for a run down on signifcant ATSF freight car classes of the 1930s and 1950s.) "Aren't the CMO 1600 series cars rebuilt DS cars, with 6-foot Youngstown door, with a 5/5/B/5 end configuration, bottom up... 3^)" Yes, with Viking roofs and a really cool post-1950 green and yellow paint scheme. "Ben your right a company could fall into the trap of not doing the research and making some kind of half-assed mixture of cars. But don't forget rebuilding of cars was a trend using similar industry standards during the period just before W.W.II and right afterwards until the Government removed the tax advantage of doing so, you know after about 1948 Uncle Sam said just because you rebuilt it doesn't mean you don't have to capitalize it... 3^) So while the fun lasted rebuilding practices were very similar." Industry practices are similar, yes, but remember that every railroad's mechanical department had their own preferences, which is why you have so many variations. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:43:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Beach Island Stations Mike Allen asks: >I found out last night that the lovely young lady and I are about to >spend a post-season week-end on LBI. I'm afraid she is of the mistaken >belief that there is no railfanning that I can do there. I know the >location of the Barnegate Light Station from past years and I know there >are some others still extant but I am not certain of the locations. An >inquiry at the Princeton Public Library indicates that their copy of >Brinkman's "The Tuckerton Railroad " has either taken a walk or died of >old age. > >If anybody knows the locations ( the approximate cross streets or even >just the town will do) of any of the existing artifacts I would >appreciate hearing from you. I don know about stations, but there is defintiley some railfanning stuff. LI G5s #35 (for more info see http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/lirr-etc.html#Loco35) I'm not sure of the status or loaction of this loco right now... Railroad Museum of LI http://rmli.org/ has G5s #39 Possible location are "Riverhead" and "Greenport", but there isn't a lot of ino avaialble on the web...I'm sure some listers can help! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] C&BT X29b Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:47:59 +0000 Ben Hom wrote: "The only other road who went this far was KCS, who rebuilt 92 USRA DS cars in a similar manner, retaining the fishbelly underframe." Oops - had the rest of the answer further down in the post. Add ATSF Classes Bx-41, -42, -45, and -46 to the list of postwar bodies on old underframes. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] N scale P-85 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:58:05 +0000 This is on the Trains.com web site with a picture. Right clicking in the picture will blow it up to a bigger size. Couldn't tell about the window problem but the paint job looks good. The diaphragms appear to be way too thick but that may be caused by couple distance. The firm has also released an assembled Centralia Car Shops Pennsylvania RR class P-85 passenger coach. InterMountain Railway Co., P.O. Box 839, Longmont, CO 80502; www.intermountain-railway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:07:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LIRR #35 The major pieces of this locomotive are definitely in a fenced area adjacent to the LIRR Oyster Bay yards. They have been there for a year or two at least; they are nicely painted in red undercoat or primer, but several trips by there (to go sailing at an adjacent marina) have not uncovered any visible activity. I well recall it stuffed and mounted more than four decades ago in Eisenhower Park (then Salisbury Park) in Nassau County. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:10:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale P-85 From: Jerry Britton On Friday, September 5, 2003, at 11:58 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > This is on the Trains.com web site with a picture. Right clicking in > the > picture will blow it up to a bigger size. Couldn't tell about the > window > problem but the paint job looks good. The diaphragms appear to be way > too > thick but that may be caused by couple distance. This angle doesn't give away the window issue which, by the way, does not exist on the forthcoming HO scale model. An affiliate of Des Plaines Hobbies, who created the model, has confirmed that the car is incorrect. Both sides look fine, by themselves, but when you view the car from a direct side angle you can clearly see the staggered windows. One N scale modeler measured the error out to be 18 scale inches. The DPH affiliate recently told me that the windows are off, in fact, 9 inches on each side. It has been suggested to put masking tape on the inside of the windows to simulate blinds. However, it is unknown as yet if the finished model will offer access to the interior or not. This may be a partial solution, especially for those modeling night-time. Hopefully they will correct the car for future runs. Other than that, should be an excellent car. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:11:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Beach Island Stations On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Bruce F. Smith wrote: > >I found out last night that the lovely young lady and I are about to > >spend a post-season week-end on LBI. I'm afraid she is of the mistaken > >belief that there is no railfanning that I can do there. I know the > >location of the Barnegate Light Station from past years and I know there > >are some others still extant but I am not certain of the locations. An > >inquiry at the Princeton Public Library indicates that their copy of > >Brinkman's "The Tuckerton Railroad " has either taken a walk or died of > >old age. > > > >If anybody knows the locations ( the approximate cross streets or even > >just the town will do) of any of the existing artifacts I would > >appreciate hearing from you. > > I don know about stations, but there is defintiley some railfanning stuff. [] > Possible location are "Riverhead" and "Greenport", but there isn't a lot of > ino avaialble on the web...I'm sure some listers can help! Well, I assume "Long Beach Island" is off the coast of Jersey, based on references to Tuckerton and Barnegat, so this is a bit of a hike, isn't it? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:38:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Beach Island Stations >On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Bruce F. Smith wrote: > >> >I found out last night that the lovely young lady and I are about to >> >spend a post-season week-end on LBI. I'm afraid she is of the mistaken >> >belief that there is no railfanning that I can do there. I know the >> >location of the Barnegate Light Station from past years and I know there >> >are some others still extant but I am not certain of the locations. An >> >inquiry at the Princeton Public Library indicates that their copy of >> >Brinkman's "The Tuckerton Railroad " has either taken a walk or died of >> >old age. >> > >> >If anybody knows the locations ( the approximate cross streets or even >> >just the town will do) of any of the existing artifacts I would >> >appreciate hearing from you. >> >> I don know about stations, but there is defintiley some railfanning stuff. > >[] > >> Possible location are "Riverhead" and "Greenport", but there isn't a lot of >> ino avaialble on the web...I'm sure some listers can help! Derrick (and others) point out: >Well, I assume "Long Beach Island" is off the coast of Jersey, based on >references to Tuckerton and Barnegat, so this is a bit of a hike, isn't >it? ;-) Well, OK, I messed up! It happens ;^) Mike must not be from around there...if he'd said he was going "to da shore" I woulda caught on! But...maybe Mike can do the manly thing, get lost, and end up on Lon G'island instead Much more interesting than wandering romantically down the beaches looking for old syringes, needles etc...and I might add, a true test to see if the "lady friend" is a keeper...I knew mine was when she spent a weekend camping out of the back of a van at Cass Scenic railway in the pouring rain. Of course, she stayed on the train and laughed her backside off at us lunies getting drenched on the photo lines . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sd40-blue@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Beach Island Stations Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:57:13 +0000 Not sure about the island itself, but... In the town of Barnegat (mainland) the ROW easy to spot. If you follow it toward Manahawkin (I think!!) you can see a pretty sizeable coal pier with rail still on it. Its been a couple of years since I've been down, but Ocean County is my old sales territory. Don't forget to have breakfast at the place with the old coach in front. Good food and lots RR decorations on the walls. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 14:13:58 -0400 From: Ike Subject: [PRR] Today's Charlie:(link) http://mywebpage.netscape.com/pauch5839/crcha030905.gif Look closely- Thought it was interesting. -- Yours, Troy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Business Cars Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:56:32 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C373BD.E51BE690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hopefully this is a better copy. The Pennsylvania Railroad and Car #120 =20 The Pennsylvania Railroad had three business cars numbered 120 during = its entire history. The initial car was of wood construction and was = built in the company's Altoona Shops in August of 1886. In June of 1899 = it was renumbered 160 and was finally scrapped by the railroad during = March of 1929 =20 The Second Car was built in Altoona in December of 1909, was of steel = construction as was named CHICAGOAN. During March of 1928, when the = railroad received its last delivery of Altoona built class Z74 cars it = was renumbered 7508. In 1948 it was renumbered 120 and named WASHINGTON. = It was renumbered and renamed BUFFALO in January 1956. During July of = 1964 it was assigned to Camp Car Service and was renumbered 492472. = Today the hulk of the car survives on live trackage at Wildwood Jct., NJ = on the Cape May Seashore Lines. =20 Today's Car 120, the PENNSYLVANIA, was built in Altoona and delivered = for service in February 1928. It was named Baltimore in September of = 1939. It was subsequently completely rebuilt in 1952 for the use of = Walter S. Franklin and named PENNSYLVANIA. As the result of the Penn = Central merger it was renumbered PC # 14 and then PC # 9. In August of = 1971 it was sold to George Pins who then sold it to Burt Smith during = October of 1979. It was then sold in November of 1981 to Joel Mitchell. = Juniata Terminal acquired the car in April 1985 and initiated a = rebuilding effort that was completed in October of 1990. The car arrived = back in Philadelphia on October 6, 1990. The Pennsylvania Railroad and Car name PENNSYLVANIA The Car Name PENNSYLVANIA was carried of Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger = Cars as follows: =20 Office Car # 120 = August, 1886 to June, 1889 Parlor Observation Car (Pullman Plan 2420) August, 1910 = to November, 1914 Parlor Observation Car (Pullman Plan 2421) November, = 1914 to February, 1938 Office Car# Unknown = October, 1929 to August, 1935 Office Car # 7507 = September, 1935 to December 1951 Office Car 120 = January, 1952 to August, 1971 =20 = =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C373BD.E51BE690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hopefully this is a = better=20 copy.

The Pennsylvania Railroad = and Car=20 #120

The=20 Pennsylvania Railroad had three business cars numbered 120 during its = entire=20 history. The initial car was of wood construction and was built in the = company=92s=20 Altoona Shops in August of 1886. In June of 1899 it was renumbered 160 = and was=20 finally scrapped by the railroad during March of 1929

The Second=20 Car was built in Altoona in = December=20 of 1909, was of steel construction as was named CHICAGOAN. During March = of 1928,=20 when the railroad received its last delivery of=20 Altoona built class Z74 cars = it was=20 renumbered 7508. In 1948 it was renumbered 120 and named=20 WASHINGTON. It was = renumbered and=20 renamed BUFFALO in January = 1956.=20 During July of 1964 it was assigned to Camp Car Service and was = renumbered=20 492472. Today the hulk of the car survives on live trackage at Wildwood = Jct., NJ=20 on the Cape May Seashore Lines.

Today=92s Car=20 120, the PENNSYLVANIA, was = built=20 in Altoona and delivered for = service=20 in February 1928. It was named=20 Baltimore in September of = 1939. It=20 was subsequently completely rebuilt in 1952 for the use of Walter S. = Franklin=20 and named PENNSYLVANIA. As = the=20 result of the Penn Central merger it was renumbered PC # 14 and then PC = # 9. In=20 August of 1971 it was sold to George Pins who then sold it to Burt Smith = during=20 October of 1979. It was then sold in November of 1981 to Joel Mitchell. = Juniata=20 Terminal acquired the car in April 1985 and initiated a rebuilding = effort that=20 was completed in October of 1990. The car arrived back in=20 Philadelphia on October 6, 1990.

The=20 Pennsylvania Railroad and Car name=20 PENNSYLVANIA

The=20 Car Name PENNSYLVANIA was carried of Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger = Cars as=20 follows:

           =20 Office Car # 120           &nbs= p;            = ;            =          =20 August, 1886 to June, 1889

           =20 Parlor Observation Car (Pullman Plan 2420)     August, 1910 = to=20 November, 1914

           =20 Parlor Observation Car (Pullman Plan 2421)     November, = 1914 to=20 February, 1938

           =20 Office Car# Unknown =            &nbs= p;            = ;           =20 October, 1929 to August, = 1935

           =20 Office Car # 7507           &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20 September, 1935 to December 1951

           =20 Office Car 120           &nbs= p;            = ;            =              = January, 1952 to August, 1971

            &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;         =20
------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C373BD.E51BE690-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:09:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] HO Walthers sleepers From: Frederick Ripley Hi all, Two questions about the Walthers PRR sleepers: 1. How do they look/operate mixed in with PRR Rivarossi cars? No doubt they are better models, but I want to continue operating my Rivarossi sleepers as well. Does the paint match tolerably, or is there too much of a variation? (I believe I remember someone saying that they were a more reddish, truer tuscan than the brown/tuscan of Rivarossi). 2. Does the 6-6-4 car conform to a PRR prototype? I can't find a similar configuration in PRR timetables. Does that configuration mean 6 double bdrm, six roomettes, 4 master rooms? I am also interested in modeling the C&O Detroit section of the "Sportsman/ George Washington", so if anyone has info about what cars would represent that train well please e-mail me off list (so as not to clutter up PRR Talk with non-PRR stuff!) Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:38:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR website in trouble? --part1_2f.3e775d35.2c8a948d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/documents.html This page presents a message about viruses that seems to have been hacked. Is this to be expected? Lee Rainey --part1_2f.3e775d35.2c8a948d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/documents.html
This page presents a message about viruses that seems to have been hacked. I= s this to be expected?

Lee Rainey --part1_2f.3e775d35.2c8a948d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:49:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Consist Book from TLC --part1_14.186dd2a6.2c8a972c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone had a recent update from TLC about their consist book? Last I head the book was supposed to begin shipping in July 2003. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_14.186dd2a6.2c8a972c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone had a recent update from TLC about their co= nsist book? Last I head the book was supposed to begin shipping in Jul= y 2003.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_14.186dd2a6.2c8a972c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:44:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR sleepers From: Frederick Ripley Thanks to everyone who provided info and answers to my questions about the Walthers PRR sleepers- very helpful! One good suggestion, from Ted Andrews, was to give the Rivarossi cars a coating of a semi-gloss finish, as this apparently brings out a bit of red in them. Looking at PTT's, the 10-5 seems to have been a car that was phased out of regular assignments by about 1960, but a consist of the "General" from 1962, in the "Pennsy Streamliners" book, shows one operating as an extra car, so for those of us modeling the 1960's it would seem to be OK to operate them (perhaps they occasionally subbed for 10-6's?). 4-4-2's, of course, continued on the "Broadway" through 1967, so it seems that that is a car that is too good to pass up, even with a possible color issue. One more question about PRR Rivarossi cars- has anyone found a good way to change the names of the sleepers, or eliminate the "Pullman" on the coaches? I tried to remove the latter on one car with some thinner, and by the time the lettering started to come off the tuscan was coming off too. Thanks again, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:49:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR sleepers --part1_77.184e1395.2c8ac14a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If your comment about the 4-4-2's running through 1967 is referring to the Walther's model, it is important to realize that there was a prewar 4-4-2 sleeper deliver in 1937/8 and a postwar version delivered in 1947/8. The two sleepers are radically different and I believe that the latter version is what you would have seen running on the Broadway (or any other Pennsy train) in 1967. The Walther's car, on the other hand, is a model of the prewar version of a 4-4-2 sleeper. Adding to the confusion os that both series of 4-4-2's were named in the "Imperial-" series... Chris Baker #1918 --part1_77.184e1395.2c8ac14a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If your comment about the 4-4-2's running through 1967= is referring to the Walther's model, it is important to realize that there=20= was a prewar 4-4-2 sleeper deliver in 1937/8 and a postwar version delivered= in 1947/8. The two sleepers are radically different and I believe tha= t the latter version is what you would have seen running on the Broadway (or= any other Pennsy train) in 1967.

The Walther's car, on the other hand, is a model of the prewar version of a=20= 4-4-2 sleeper. Adding to the confusion os that both series of 4-4-2's=20= were named in the "Imperial-" series...

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_77.184e1395.2c8ac14a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:04:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] From: Frederick Ripley Chris wrote: The two sleepers are radically different and I believe that the latter version is what you would have seen running on the Broadway (or any other Pennsy train) in 1967. The Walther's car, on the other hand, is a model of the prewar version of a 4-4-2 sleeper. Adding to the confusion os that both series of 4-4-2's were named in the "Imperial-" series... I didn't know that the Walthers car was the pre-war version- thanks. By the early 60's, the only 4-4-2's regularly assigned on the PRR were on the Broadway, no doubt easily covered by the cars delivered as part of the 1948 re-equipping. Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 02:09:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 --part1_5a.21672afc.2c8ad407_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After a flurry of talk surrounding Walthers' plans to produce a Fleet of Moderism version of the prewar 4-4-2 Pullman, I can't find any further peep about the subject. Is Walthers still planning to proceed with this? Chris Baker #1918 --part1_5a.21672afc.2c8ad407_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After a flurry of talk surrounding Walthers' plans to=20= produce a Fleet of Moderism version of the prewar 4-4-2 Pullman, I can= 't find any further peep about the subject. Is Walthers still planning= to proceed with this?

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_5a.21672afc.2c8ad407_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 02:48:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR website in trouble? On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/documents.html > > This page presents a message about viruses that seems to have been hacked. Is > this to be expected? I'm not aware of any viruses that have been hacked;-) Seriously, said page looks fine to me and I get no suspicious content from it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 05:24:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble -------------------------------1062840249 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anybody who says that this site has not been hacked, never clicked on the "report from the chief engineer", which has a picture of Baghdad Bob, with the following information below.: No there is no page here. There is no page within a hundred kilobytes of here. I am not worried. And neither should you be. In fact, as we speak, viruses are committing suicide outside the firewall of this server, and we encourage them to continue doing so. Perhaps the Site Directory can help you find your intended destination. If you think this message is in error, please contact the Webmaster at webmaster@dsop.com. -------------------------------1062840249 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anybody who says that this site has not been hacked, never clicked on t= he "report from the chief engineer", which has a picture of Baghdad Bob, wit= h the following information below.:

No there is no page here. There is no page within a hundr= ed kilobytes of here.

I am not worried. And neither should you be.

In fact, as we speak, viruses are committing suicide outs= ide the firewall of this server, and we encourage them to continue doing so.=

Perhaps the Site Directory can help you find your intended destination.

If you think this message is in error, please contact the=20= Webmaster at webmaster@dsop.com.
-------------------------------1062840249-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 06:20:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble --part1_79.18794cf3.2c8b0ee0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/6/2003 5:27:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mouldymay@aol.com writes: > Anybody who says that this site has not been hacked, never clicked on the > "report from the chief engineer", which has a picture of Baghdad Bob, with the > following information below.: > > > > No there is no page here. There is no page within a hundred kilobytes of > here. > > > > I am not worried. And neither should you be. > > > > In fact, as we speak, viruses are committing suicide outside the firewall of > this server, and we encourage them to continue doing so. > > Perhaps the Site Directory can help you find your intended destination. > > If you think this message is in error, please contact the Webmaster at > webmaster@dsop.com. > > > Precisely what I observed at my first 2 visits. My third visit sometime later produced the correct page. What gives? Lee Rainey --part1_79.18794cf3.2c8b0ee0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/6/2003 5:27:59 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, Mouldymay@aol.com writes:

Anybody who says that this site= has not been hacked, never clicked on the "report from the chief engineer",= which has a picture of Baghdad Bob, with the following information below.:<= BR>

No there is no page here. There is no page within a hundred kilobytes of=20= here.

I am not worried. And neither should you be.

In fact, as we speak, viruses are committing suicide outside the firewall= of this server, and we encourage them to continue doing so.

Perhaps the Site Directory can help you find= your intended destination.

If you think this message is in error, please contact the=20= Webmaster at webmaster@dsop.com.

Precisely what I observed at my first 2 visits. My third visit sometime late= r produced the correct page. What gives?

Lee Rainey
--part1_79.18794cf3.2c8b0ee0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 06:53:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR sleepers From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 12:49 AM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 wrote: > If your comment about the 4-4-2's running through 1967 is referring to=20= > the Walther's model, it is important to realize that there was a=20 > prewar 4-4-2 sleeper deliver in 1937/8 and a postwar version delivered=20= > in 1947/8.=A0 The two sleepers are radically different and I believe=20= > that the latter version is what you would have seen running on the=20 > Broadway (or any other Pennsy train) in 1967.=A0 > > The Walther's car, on the other hand, is a model of the prewar version=20= > of a 4-4-2 sleeper.=A0 Adding to the confusion os that both series of=20= > 4-4-2's were named in the "Imperial-" series... Chris is correct. The prewar (Walthers) 4-4-2's were still around into=20= the 1950's, but were relegated to backup service. You can check their=20 1954 assignments in the recently posted Varnish database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish Search on Car Name Contains Imperial. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 06:56:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 05:24 AM, Mouldymay@aol.com wrote: > Anybody who says that this site has not been hacked, never clicked on=20= > the "report from the chief engineer", which has a picture of Baghdad=20= > Bob, with the following information below.: > =A0 > No there is no page here. There is no page within a hundred kilobytes=20= > of here. Can you say OVERREACTION? The "Baghdad Bob" page is the standard 404 "Missing Page" file on my=20 server...and an attempt at humor. This is no hack! Anytime you ask for a page that doesn't exist, the=20 server (any server) serves its "404" page. The only issue here is that the site must have a broken link. Mark Bej=20= maintains the Broadway site. No virus, no hacks, all is well, go about your business! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:34:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Timing of X26 and X29 rebuilds 1945-1959 --part1_139.24ad9db8.2c8b203d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/03 8:19:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > PRR Class X29D > > Original Car: PRR Class X29 > > Sides: 10-panel > > Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (late) > > Door: 8 ft Youngstown > > Side sill brackets: T-section > > Roof: STANRAY diagonal panel ("overhanging") > > IH: 10'6" > > These cars are undoubtedly stand alone cars or at least I am not familiar > with to many other roads that went as far as the PRR with the rebuilds, > remember > the under frames are PRR designs... I'm not the expert here, but be aware that many other railroads used rebuild kits to put similar all-steel superstructures onto USRA frames. You can see these kits advertised in the Car Builders' Cyclopedias of the late 20's through 1930's. The differences in the case of rebuilding an X29 is (obviously): 1. one steel superstructure is replacing another, yielding a higher, wider car and often a wider door 2. the frame underneath is X29, with some differences from the USRA frame. 3, the rebuilding date is later than most USRA rebuilds -- of course, the Pennsy also rebuilt X26 (USRA single sheathed box) into X26C in 1945-1949 (at Terre Haute). 4. all-steel car rebuilds came with the X29B program (at Terre Haute ?), with X29D following 1952-1956, and 400 X29F (Spartan tri-belt) and 900 X29G (plywood lined) following as late as 1959. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_139.24ad9db8.2c8b203d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/5/03 8:19:22 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

> PRR Class X29D
> Original Car: PRR Class X29
> Sides: 10-panel
> Ends: R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught End (late)
> Door: 8 ft Youngstown
> Side sill brackets: T-section
> Roof: STANRAY diagonal panel ("overhanging")
> IH: 10'6"

These cars are undoubtedly stand alone cars or at least I am not familiar with to many other roads that went as far as the PRR with the rebuilds, reme= mber
the under frames are PRR designs...

I'm not the expert here, but be aware that many other railroads used rebuild= kits to put similar all-steel superstructures onto USRA frames. You c= an see these kits advertised in the Car Builders' Cyclopedias of the late 20= 's through 1930's. The differences in the case of rebuilding an X29 is= (obviously):
1. one steel superstructure is replacing another, yielding a higher, w= ider car and often a wider door
2. the frame underneath is X29, with some differences from the USRA fr= ame.
3, the rebuilding date is later than most USRA rebuilds -- of course,=20= the Pennsy also rebuilt X26 (USRA single sheathed box) into X26C in 1945-194= 9 (at Terre Haute).
4. all-steel car rebuilds came with the X29B program (at Terre Haute ?= ), with X29D following 1952-1956, and 400 X29F (Spartan tri-belt) and 900 X2= 9G (plywood lined) following as late as 1959.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_139.24ad9db8.2c8b203d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:42:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C3744A.5BB81B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Car is currently scheduled for arrival end of this month; stock = #932-16704. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 2:19 AM Subject: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 After a flurry of talk surrounding Walthers' plans to produce a Fleet = of Moderism version of the prewar 4-4-2 Pullman, I can't find any = further peep about the subject. Is Walthers still planning to proceed = with this? Chris Baker #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C3744A.5BB81B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Car is currently scheduled for arrival end of this = month;=20 stock #932-16704.

Frank Brua

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 <Chrisandbelton2@aol.com>To:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Saturday, September 06, 2003 2:19 AM
Subject: [PRR] = Walthers=20 4-4-2

After a flurry of talk surrounding = Walthers' plans=20 to produce a Fleet of Moderism version of the prewar 4-4-2 = Pullman, I=20 can't find any further peep about the subject. Is Walthers still = planning to proceed with this?

Chris Baker #1918=20

------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C3744A.5BB81B20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR website in trouble? Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:43:02 -0400 Click on "First Annual Report of the Chief Engineer." Is this by design? Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Derrick J Brashear Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:48 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR website in trouble? On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/documents.html > > This page presents a message about viruses that seems to have been > hacked. Is this to be expected? I'm not aware of any viruses that have been hacked;-) Seriously, said page looks fine to me and I get no suspicious content from it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timing of X26 and X29 rebuilds 1945-1959 Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:33:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C37451.86B09BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Tipton wrote: I'm not the expert here, but be aware that many other railroads used = rebuild kits to put similar all-steel superstructures onto USRA frames. = You can see these kits advertised in the Car Builders' Cyclopedias of = the late 20's through 1930's. The differences in the case of rebuilding = an X29 is (obviously): 1. one steel superstructure is replacing another, yielding a higher, = wider car and often a wider door. 2. the frame underneath is X29, with some differences from the USRA = frame. 3, the rebuilding date is later than most USRA rebuilds -- of course, = the Pennsy also rebuilt X26 (USRA single sheathed box) into X26C in = 1945-1949 (at Terre Haute). 4. all-steel car rebuilds came with the X29B program (at Terre Haute = ?), with X29D following 1952-1956, and 400 X29F (Spartan tri-belt) and = 900 X29G (plywood lined) following as late as 1959. Point 1 is correct for ALL boxcar rebuilds. The Youngtown kits were = used for rebuilds done during the 1930s and early 1940s, where the = tendency was to reuse car body components such as ends as well as the = underframe. What makes the KCS, ATSF Bx-41, -42, -45, and -46, and PRR = X29 rebuilds different from the prewar rebuilds is the fact that they = were much more extensive, amounting to dropping a post-war AAR car body = on the old underframe, reusing no components of the original car body. = The Class X26C rebuilds did reuse the original ends after additional = panels were added to match the wider and taller car body. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C37451.86B09BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rick Tipton wrote:

I'm not the expert here, but be = aware that=20 many other railroads used rebuild kits to put similar all-steel = superstructures=20 onto USRA frames. You can see these kits advertised in the Car = Builders'=20 Cyclopedias of the late 20's through 1930's. The differences in = the case=20 of rebuilding an X29 is (obviously):
1. one steel = superstructure is=20 replacing another, yielding a higher, wider car and often a wider=20 door.
2. the frame underneath is X29, with some differences = from the=20 USRA frame.
3, the rebuilding date is later than most USRA = rebuilds --=20 of course, the Pennsy also rebuilt X26 (USRA single sheathed box) into = X26C in=20 1945-1949 (at Terre Haute).
4. all-steel car rebuilds came with = the=20 X29B program (at Terre Haute ?), with X29D following 1952-1956, and 400 = X29F=20 (Spartan tri-belt) and 900 X29G (plywood lined) following as late as=20 1959.

Point 1 is correct for ALL = boxcar=20 rebuilds. The Youngtown kits were used for rebuilds done = during the=20 1930s and early 1940s, where the tendency was to reuse car body = components such=20 as ends as well as the underframe. What makes the KCS,=20 ATSF Bx-41, -42, -45, and -46, and PRR X29 rebuilds different = from the=20 prewar rebuilds is the fact that they were much more extensive, = amounting to=20 dropping a post-war AAR car body on the old underframe, reusing no = components of=20 the original car body. The Class X26C rebuilds did reuse the = original ends=20 after additional panels were added to match the wider and taller car=20 body.

Ben Hom

------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C37451.86B09BC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:33:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR sleepers From: Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-4-792577715 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 12:49 AM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 wrote: > If your comment about the 4-4-2's running through 1967 is referring to=20= > the Walther's model, it is important to realize that there was a=20 > prewar 4-4-2 sleeper deliver in 1937/8 and a postwar version delivered=20= > in 1947/8.=A0 The two sleepers are radically different and I believe=20= > that the latter version is what you would have seen running on the=20 > Broadway (or any other Pennsy train) in 1967.=A0 > > The Walther's car, on the other hand, is a model of the prewar version=20= > of a 4-4-2 sleeper.=A0 Adding to the confusion os that both series of=20= > 4-4-2's were named in the "Imperial-" series... > > Chris Baker=A0 #1918 Hi All, I can't say how many were left in 1967, but the 1961 Pullman = list=20 shows 13 ACF 4-4-2s and 12 of the Pullman built ones. The Pullman ones=20= are the pre-war cars of course, and the 12 were all that were built in=20= 1938. If anyone wants to know how many ACF cars there were initially I=20= think I have that somewhere. Jamie= --Apple-Mail-4-792577715 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 12:49 AM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: ArialIf your comment about the 4-4-2's running through 1967 is referring to the Walther's model, it is important to realize that there was a prewar 4-4-2 sleeper deliver in 1937/8 and a postwar version delivered in 1947/8.=A0 The two sleepers are radically different and I believe that the latter version is what you would have seen running on the Broadway (or any other Pennsy train) in 1967.=A0 The Walther's car, on the other hand, is a model of the prewar version of a 4-4-2 sleeper.=A0 Adding to the confusion os that both series of 4-4-2's were named in the "Imperial-" series... Chris Baker=A0 #1918 Hi All, I can't say how many were left in 1967, but the 1961 Pullman = list shows 13 ACF 4-4-2s and 12 of the Pullman built ones. The Pullman ones are the pre-war cars of course, and the 12 were all that were built in 1938. If anyone wants to know how many ACF cars there were initially I think I have that somewhere. Jamie= --Apple-Mail-4-792577715-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:04:08 -0700 OK, but just as a matter of efficient communication, why would you put up a message that would give a casual visitor the impression that your site HAD been hacked -- especially over a routine matter like a broken link? I guess you could say that it's just a hobby, and if you want to substitute a not found 404 with Martians have hijacked my server, that's OK -- but why not just let people get the routine message, or an interpretation that says the same thing? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 05:24 AM, Mouldymay@aol.com wrote: > Anybody who says that this site has not been hacked, never clicked on > the "report from the chief engineer", which has a picture of Baghdad > Bob, with the following information below.: > > No there is no page here. There is no page within a hundred kilobytes > of here. Can you say OVERREACTION? The "Baghdad Bob" page is the standard 404 "Missing Page" file on my server...and an attempt at humor. This is no hack! Anytime you ask for a page that doesn't exist, the server (any server) serves its "404" page. The only issue here is that the site must have a broken link. Mark Bej maintains the Broadway site. No virus, no hacks, all is well, go about your business! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:14:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Delmarva Branch I found the following info in the Chesapeake Region ETT No. 1, effective April 29, 1956: Interlocking Block Distance Siding Cap'y Interlocking Station Station Station from Wilmington in 50' cars X X X-O Arms 22.7 270 Both directions Middletown 24.8 Townsend 29.0 X X X-O Clayton 36.8 207 Both directions Cheswold 42.4 Dover 47.6 Wyoming 50.7 243 Both directions Woodside 54.1 Viola 56.1 Felton 58.3 X X X-O Harrington 64.4 144 N/B; 119 S/B; 159 Both directions Farmington 68.1 Greenwood 72.4 Bridgeville 77.0 Cannon 79.9 X X X-O Seaford 84.2 180 Both directions Seaford Movable Bridge 84.3 Laurel Movable Bridge 90.4 Laurel 90.6 X Hearn 95.3 X-O Delmar 97.3 150 Both directions X: in operation continuously O: Trainphone equipped Hearn Block Station remote controlled by Delmar In Chesapeake Region ETT No. 10, effective October 30, 1960, there is no mention of "ARMS" or of its siding. The siding at Delmar was increased to a capacity of 440 Fifty-foot cars. Hope this helps. Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:05:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Saturday, September 6, 2003, at 10:04 AM, John Bruce wrote: > > OK, but just as a matter of efficient communication, why would you put > up a > message that would give a casual visitor the impression that your site > HAD > been hacked -- especially over a routine matter like a broken link? I > guess you could say that it's just a hobby, and if you want to > substitute a > not found 404 with Martians have hijacked my server, that's OK -- but > why > not just let people get the routine message, or an interpretation that > says > the same thing? Obviously the war in Iraq was so long ago that folks have forgotten the habits of Baghdad Bob. A few months ago folks were laughing their butts off when they encountered that page. Now you folks are rationing water, putting new batteries in flashlights, and hiding under desks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:26:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble From: Jerry @ Pennsy You know, folks, the error page in question did read in big bold print "404 - Page Not Found". Obviously, that was not clear. I have removed Baghdad Bob and updated the default error page. Can we get off this subject now? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:42:40 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Website in Trouble It's a shame, I enjoyed the 404 page. In fact I have shared it with some Web masters that I know at other colleges and I wouldn't be surprised if it or something very similar were to be found at some rather well known four-year schools. :-) Dave At 1:26 PM -0400 9/6/03, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: >You know, folks, the error page in question did read in big bold >print "404 - Page Not Found". > >Obviously, that was not clear. I have removed Baghdad Bob and >updated the default error page. > >Can we get off this subject now? >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:43:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauge of early PRR --part1_12d.309b0d63.2c8bd94a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am seeking help relative to a question that has arisen on the EarlyRails list In the early days, the term "standard gauge" covered a range of gauges. The glossary in the 1873 Car Builder's Dictionary says the range was 56.5" to 57" (4'-8 1/2" to 4' 9"). Other sources suggest an even wider range. We know the original PRR was "standard gauge" -- ie, not 58" like the PFtW&C and not 72" like the Erie. But what was its exact gauge in the 1860s? It seems to be established by a variety of sources that the PRR used 57" gauge in the latter part of the 19th century. Was that the as-built gauge or a later expedient? Can anyone help us out with a reference to a primary source (contemporary report or some such)? Many thanks. Lee Rainey --part1_12d.309b0d63.2c8bd94a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am seeking help relative to a question that has aris= en on the EarlyRails list

In the early days, the term "standard gauge" covered a range of gauges. The=20= glossary in the 1873 Car Builder's Dictionary says the range was 56.5" to 57= " (4'-8 1/2" to 4' 9"). Other sources suggest an even wider range.

We know the original PRR was "standard gauge" -- ie, not 58" like the PFtW&a= mp;C and not 72" like the Erie. But what was its exact gauge in the 1860s? <= BR>
It seems to be established by a variety of sources that the PRR used 57" gau= ge in the latter part of the 19th century. Was that the as-built gauge or a=20= later expedient?

Can anyone help us out with a reference to a primary source (contemporary re= port or some such)?

Many thanks.

Lee Rainey --part1_12d.309b0d63.2c8bd94a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauge of early PRR --- LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > I am seeking help relative to a question that has arisen on the > EarlyRails > list > We know the original PRR was "standard gauge" -- ie, not 58" like > the PFtW&C > and not 72" like the Erie. But what was its exact gauge in the > 1860s? > It seems to be established by a variety of sources that the PRR > used 57" > gauge in the latter part of the 19th century. Was that the as-built > gauge or a > later expedient? > > Can anyone help us out with a reference to a primary source > (contemporary report or some such)? Chris Baer answered this one on some other group, I can't recall which one. Basically, PRR started out using 4' 8 1/2", changed to 4' 9", then changed back to 4' 8 1/2". Dates? That's why I was trying to find his email. You might look at his PRR chronology, perhaps he mentions dates in that. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:45:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauge of early PRR --- robert netzlof wrote: > Chris Baer answered this one on some other group, I can't recall > which one. Basically, PRR started out using 4' 8 1/2", changed to > 4' 9", then changed back to 4' 8 1/2". Found his original post on the 19thCenturyLimited group. He cites "minutes and annual reports". PRR originally 56 1/2", changed standard to 57" in 1868, adopted 56 1/2" (again) in Aug. 1892. Note that those remarks pertain only to the PRR proper. Apparently the New Jersey lines were originally 58" gauge and stayed so until 1872, when they changed to 57". ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 21:42:50 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] F-7 Question --=====================_190702035==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dayna and I just purchased an A-B set of Athearn Genesis F-7's. I am having them decoder equipped. My question is did PRR F units have Mars lights? I am having the A unit set up with a Mars light. Dayna & Randy Williamson www.trainstuffllc.com --=====================_190702035==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dayna and I just purchased an A-B set of Athearn Genesis F-7's. I am having them decoder equipped. My question is did PRR F units have Mars lights? I am having the A unit set up with a Mars light.

Dayna & Randy Williamson
www.trainstuffllc.com --=====================_190702035==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 Question Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 22:49:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C374C9.30072910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy asked-- > >My question is did PRR F units have Mars lights? I am having the A = unit set up with a Mars light. > No. No Mars light. As an example see http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr9879s.jpg Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C374C9.30072910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Randy asked--

>My question=20 is did PRR F units have Mars lights? I am having the A unit set up = with a=20 Mars light.
>

No. No Mars light. As an = example=20 see

http://www.rr-fal= lenflags.org/prr/prr9879s.jpg

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C374C9.30072910-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:25:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Walthers sleepers --part1_f7.2ffea396.2c8ca7f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List, The Pennsy never owned any 6-6-4 sleepers. The configuration for these cars was 6 roomette 6 section ( yes section) 4 double bedroom. Interestingly BUDD built a number of these cars for the Burlington in 1952 for The American Royal Zephyr and the Blackhawk. They did make it into AMTRAK service but were not used on AMTRAKS Broadway. Bill --part1_f7.2ffea396.2c8ca7f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello List,
            &nbs= p; The Pennsy never owned any 6-6-4 sleepers. The configuration for these ca= rs was 6 roomette 6 section ( yes section) 4 double bedroom. Interestingly B= UDD built a number of these cars for the Burlington in 1952 for The American= Royal Zephyr and the Blackhawk. They did make it into AMTRAK service but we= re not used on AMTRAKS Broadway.
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;           Bill --part1_f7.2ffea396.2c8ca7f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:35:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR sleepers --part1_139.24b96318.2c8caa42_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List, In regards to the 10-5 sleepers in regular service: The July 1967 edition of the Official Guide show 10-5 sleepers regularly assigned to Trains 574 The Southern Express and 575 The Northern Express between Washington DC and Buffalo NY. They also operated on combined train 74-94 The Kentuckian and 87-75 The Buckeye. The sleepers operated between Chicago and Louisville. Bill --part1_139.24b96318.2c8caa42_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello List,
            &nbs= p; In regards to the 10-5 sleepers in regular service: The July 1967 e= dition of the Official Guide show 10-5 sleepers regularly assigned to Trains= 574 The Southern Express and 575 The Northern Express between Washington DC= and Buffalo NY. They also operated on combined train 74-94 The Kentuckian a= nd 87-75 The Buckeye. The sleepers operated between Chicago and Louisv= ille.
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;     Bill --part1_139.24b96318.2c8caa42_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: St. Louis Trip Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:22:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3758E.7C069D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Group: I have the good luck to make an unexpected trip to the St. = Louis, MO area, leaving very early THIS TUESDAY MORNING. Traveling = AMTRAK from Michigan. Friday late and most of Saturday is set aside for railfanning. Any PRR = remnants left that I could visit?? Any reply before midnight Monday would be appreciated!!! =20 All the best to you and yours Weldon ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3758E.7C069D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Group: I = have the good=20 luck to make an unexpected trip to the St. Louis, MO area, leaving very = early=20 THIS TUESDAY MORNING. Traveling AMTRAK=20 from Michigan.

Friday late and most of = Saturday is=20 set aside for railfanning. Any PRR remnants left that I could=20 visit??

Any reply before = midnight Monday=20 would be appreciated!!!

All the best to you and yours =20 Weldon

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3758E.7C069D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:40:55 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Altoona roundhouses Numerous roundhouses were built in Altoona over the years -- at least four. The earliest ones were in the vicinity that you described -- on the south side of the main line and in fact, within a stone's throw of where the Railroaders' Memorial Museum stands today. The stone wall you described separated the main line from part of the complex that was known as the Altoona Machine Shop (later known as 12th Street Car Shop). Two roundhouses stood in that area. The westerly of the two was 296 feet in diameter and was situated just east of the locomotive Test Plant (which was just east of 17th Street). The easterly one stood closer to and just east of the Master Mechanics Building, which is now the main (four-story) museum building. That roundhouse was 240 feet in diameter. From 1866 to about 1904, PRR built about 2200 locomotives in the cluster of AMS shop buildings that were adjacent to these two roundhouses. About a mile to the east, but on the north side of the main line, was the Altoona Car Shop complex, which included a freight-car roundhouse, 433 feet in diameter. Just east of that and still on the north side of the main line was the Juniata Shops, which built some 4,500 locomotives, ending with the 25 T1s 5500-5524 of 1945-46. One part of Juniata Shops, the 1924-built Erecting & Machine Shop or E&M, had (and still has) a turntable, but no roundhouse. The E&M building is the heart of the diesel locomotive heavy repair shop that is still active today under Norfolk Southern operation. And about two-three blocks east of the E&M, but on the south side of the main line, stood the East Altoona Engine House (roundhouse), which was 395 feet in diameter. It was located east of the Eighth Street Bridge in Juniata or what is now the Juniata section of Altoona (Juniata was annexed by Altoona). The site is there, but there's virtually nothing left to see, as the building was torn down in stages during the 1960s. Quite a contrast from 1905, when the East Altoona Engine House employed 728 men and handled the servicing of 270 locomotives per day. It was reputed to be the largest roundhouse in the world. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Paolo Roffo wrote: >Yesterday, while watching trains at the Altoona Amtrak station, another >railfan pointed out a stone wall about halfway between the current location >of the passenger platform and ALTO Tower, on the south side of the tracks, >about 60 yards east of today's 17th Street bridge. It looks to be about six >feet high, definitely made of stone, not concrete or other modern materials. > >The railfan also mentioned that he heard it was once part of the big >roundhouse that once stood here in Altoona. I don't think it was, I thought >the roundhouse was in East Altoona/Juniata somewhere. Anybody know if that >wall was once part of a PRR building? If so what was it? > >Also, where was the East Altoona enginehouse, and can any remains of it be >seen today? > >Thanks in advance >Paolo Roffo > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> >Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark >Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 >http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM >---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > >To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = >PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:40:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Altoona roundhouses Numerous roundhouses were built in Altoona over the years -- at least four. The earliest ones were in the vicinity that you described -- on the south side of the main line and in fact, within a stone's throw of where the Railroaders' Memorial Museum stands today. The stone wall you described separated the main line from part of the complex that was known as the Altoona Machine Shop (later known as 12th Street Car Shop). Two roundhouses stood in that area. The westerly of the two was 296 feet in diameter and was situated just east of the locomotive Test Plant (which was just east of 17th Street). The easterly one stood closer to and just east of the Master Mechanics Building, which is now the main (four-story) museum building. That roundhouse was 240 feet in diameter. From 1866 to about 1904, PRR built about 2200 locomotives in the cluster of AMS shop buildings that were adjacent to these two roundhouses. About a mile to the east, but on the north side of the main line, was the Altoona Car Shop complex, which included a freight-car roundhouse, 433 feet in diameter. Just east of that and still on the north side of the main line was the Juniata Shops, which built some 4,500 locomotives, ending with the 25 T1s 5500-5524 of 1945-46. One part of Juniata Shops, the 1924-built Erecting & Machine Shop or E&M, had (and still has) a turntable, but no roundhouse. The E&M building is the heart of the diesel locomotive heavy repair shop that is still active today under Norfolk Southern operation. And about two-three blocks east of the E&M, but on the south side of the main line, stood the East Altoona Engine House (roundhouse), which was 395 feet in diameter. It was located east of the Eighth Street Bridge in Juniata or what is now the Juniata section of Altoona (Juniata was annexed by Altoona). The site is there, but there's virtually nothing left to see, as the building was torn down in stages during the 1960s. Quite a contrast from 1905, when the East Altoona Engine House employed 728 men and handled the servicing of 270 locomotives per day. It was reputed to be the largest roundhouse in the world. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Paolo Roffo wrote: >Yesterday, while watching trains at the Altoona Amtrak station, another >railfan pointed out a stone wall about halfway between the current location >of the passenger platform and ALTO Tower, on the south side of the tracks, >about 60 yards east of today's 17th Street bridge. It looks to be about six >feet high, definitely made of stone, not concrete or other modern materials. > >The railfan also mentioned that he heard it was once part of the big >roundhouse that once stood here in Altoona. I don't think it was, I thought >the roundhouse was in East Altoona/Juniata somewhere. Anybody know if that >wall was once part of a PRR building? If so what was it? > >Also, where was the East Altoona enginehouse, and can any remains of it be >seen today? > >Thanks in advance >Paolo Roffo > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > > >"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > >To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = >PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:00:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/04/03 Hello Greg, Sorry for the tardy reply, but I was on vacation last week... Anyway, I appreciate your response, as well as the private responses given by several group members. Being an amateaur historian in other areas than the PRR, I understand all too well the vagaries of primary sources, as well as the misleading thought that photographs represent true colors due to fading, differing light on the subject, etc. I also have learned long ago not to trust paint labels. This is exactly why I asked this question of this list, as I was sure that it had come up before. In regards to a period, I knew in the back of my mind, that I could not slide on this one, but I model the NY Division, NY City area electrified region. I prefer traditional heavyweight passenger equipment to streamliners and lightweights, but I am not really fond of the brown roof/olive underbelly colorings that I have now learned were used up until the 1930's. I am hoping to tread that fine line of the late 1930's, before lightweight equipment was common, and when the heavyweight equipment was tranferring to black roofs/undersides. Sooo...Can I get way with picking 1937-1938 as a time period to model? This should allow the full roster of my electric engines (or motors, I guess I should say), even the DD1 that was used for work trains. Fred Subject: Re: [PRR] colors From: Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:43:01 EDT --part1_129.30dbd1cd.2c8838f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred, I don't know what you received as private posts, but let's see if I can help... > I am new to the list, and have what may seem a pretty silly question: No sill questions just silly modelers ... 3^) > What colors were 1930s heavyweight era PRR Passenger cars painted? Well, I think that best way to answer this is with a question... (YUCK! I Hate that when it happens!) What era are you modeling? The reason I ask is because the color used prior to the post war repaints for the most part seem to me to be a lighter shade of Tuscan Red. Just look at a photo of a car in FOM scheme and then look at shot of a Creek Series car in the same Color Guide. Different... And the later the cars move toward the merger the more brown they became. I am drawn to the lighter shade... ("use the force Luke...") The various color photos in the PRR color guides are a chocolate-like red-brown (and were taken in the 1950's-60's, > not the 1930s), but the 'Tuscan' paints I have seen in hobby shops just do > not seem correct to me. Correct, as the synthetic paints were developed the color moved to more of a brownish color ... and the less lead the less red (or oxide as it may be). Please read on... I have seen references to a 'Pullman Red'.... is this the color I should be shooting for? Does anyone have a > suggestion for a readily available paint > (non-acrylic) color to use? > > Thanks! > Fred Talasco Well, I may not be always right (but I am learning from my wife ... she's a great teacher 'cause she always is...) I have always ignored the names on the bottles of the jars and gone for color... I advocate the use of FLOQUIL's BOX CAR RED for the color of my Pennsy Passenger Equipment... I lighten it a bit with oxide red to get the earlier shade and use it straight out of the bottle for my post war cars and Tuscan diesels. I think you'll be a convert once you use it. Again, I am not always right, but I am in training... #^) {yes dear, no dear, you don't look fat at all dear...} Read our new The Keystone Modeler ... as Jefferson Airplane says "... feed your head..." Greg Martin ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:45:56 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/04/03 Fred asks: >In regards to a period, I knew in the back of my mind, >that I could not slide on this one, but I model the NY >Division, NY City area electrified region. I prefer >traditional heavyweight passenger equipment to >streamliners and lightweights, but I am not really >fond of the brown roof/olive underbelly colorings that >I have now learned were used up until the 1930's. I am >hoping to tread that fine line of the late 1930's, >before lightweight equipment was common, and when the >heavyweight equipment was tranferring to black >roofs/undersides. > >Sooo...Can I get way with picking 1937-1938 as a time >period to model? This should allow the full roster of >my electric engines (or motors, I guess I should say), >even the DD1 that was used for work trains. Fred, Your date of 1937-38 does mean that lightweight equipment is essentially non-existent. Within a year, a number of lightweight trainsets arrive. You need the PRRT&HS book (Tilp and Blardone, just re-released) on painting and lettering of PRR passenger cars ! From that, you will learn that the brown roof went away before the olive underbody. The olive underbody was in effect through your time-frame. The lettering was either block with cove "S", "R", "P" and "G" or newly painted Futura lettered cars. IIRC, the cars would not have gold stripes. How you plan to model your "motors" for this period? IMHO, its perhaps more challenging than the cars! P5a modifieds would have been in the striped passenger scheme, for which decals aren't available, making that a TOUGH paint job if you can even find the models!! First run GG1s (NOT BLI) would predominate although drop coupler pilot GG1s up to around 4871 might be on the propery (by the end of 1938). The GG1s would all be in the "original" scheme (5 stripe gold, Futura, side keystones with numbers). Typical power on the Broadway was the R1 ;^) I've been trying to get one but, OUCH!, they ain't cheap. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:21:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0428_01C375FB.6B9D2E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am sorry to hear that. I will personally miss old Baghdad Bob. I think = that we all need a sense of humor about all this especially our Hobbies. = On a list where we spend endless time discussing the rightness of the = particular shade of Tuscan on the latest model offering or the prototype = fidelity of the amount of green in Brunswick Green needs a sense of = humor. Don't get me wrong I expel the same amount of spit as the next = SPF but lets all sit back and wipe our collective mouths once in a = while. Sorry for the Rant Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0428_01C375FB.6B9D2E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am sorry to hear that. I will personally miss old Baghdad Bob. I = think=20 that we all need a sense of humor about all this especially our Hobbies. = On a=20 list where we spend endless time discussing the rightness of the = particular=20 shade of Tuscan on the latest model offering or the prototype fidelity = of the=20 amount of green in Brunswick Green needs a sense of humor. Don't = get me=20 wrong I expel the same amount of spit as the next SPF but lets all sit = back and=20 wipe our collective mouths once in a while. Sorry for the Rant = Bill

------=_NextPart_000_0428_01C375FB.6B9D2E10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Hauk" Subject: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:40:28 -0400 Greetings! I got the latest Walthers sale catalog in the mail today. They are having a sale on the Trainline X29's. I was wondering how accurate these models are. I know they probably compare poorly to a Westerfield or Red Caboose model, but are they a "good enough" representation of an X29? Or are they wildly off the mark in some fashion? As an aside, how long until Red Caboose offers the X29 in plain vanilla pre-war circle-keystone again? I would think this would be a consistent seller, but is not available on their website. Thanks, Doc H. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:37:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's From: Jerry Britton On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 02:40 PM, Michael Hauk wrote: > > As an aside, how long until Red Caboose offers the X29 in plain vanilla > pre-war circle-keystone again? I would think this would be a consistent > seller, but is not available on their website. Of the "plain vanilla" Circle Keystone, there are two versions: the plate end vs. the dreadnaught end. The dreadnaught end Circle Keystone car was just rerun. The kits are available now (Merchandise Service is down to 5 left) and the ready-to-run units may still be ordered and are due "shortly". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:15:37 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/04/03 Fred, I would guess the best color match would be a lightened shade of Floquil Boxcar Red. I do this pretty much to eye, with not real exact formulation. One problem (which really isn't a problem) is that Floquil's colors are less consistant than othes, but sprays like ink and I like that. Lighten the standard color with a bit of Oxide Red (also use Floquils, don't mix brands) and you will get what you need. Lay out a lot of color photos and see where you end up. What I am trying to get done is the standardize the industry with one color so at least int he future we SPF's will have a good beginning, the ending is up to you and yor weathering. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:00:03 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's As I recall, beside the obvious issue of cast-on ladders, Athearn-like door tracks, and gross details like the stirrups, the car is about 2 feet too long. That said, I own about a dozen of them, bought when they were the only game in town, and with some work (like replacing the stirrups with A-Line) still a reasonable stand-in. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Michael Hauk wrote: > Greetings! > > I got the latest Walthers sale catalog in the mail today. They are > having a sale on the Trainline X29's. > > I was wondering how accurate these models are. I know they probably > compare poorly to a Westerfield or Red Caboose model, but are they a > "good enough" representation of an X29? Or are they wildly off the mark > in some fashion? > > As an aside, how long until Red Caboose offers the X29 in plain vanilla > pre-war circle-keystone again? I would think this would be a consistent > seller, but is not available on their website. > > Thanks, > > Doc H. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:59:49 +0100 They do need some work, to make them look good, but they also have the advantage of being less fragile than the Red Caboose version (useful here in the UK where layouts tend to be portable and sectional for exibition purposes), though I am not convinced about the colour Walthers paint them. Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's > As I recall, beside the obvious issue of cast-on ladders, Athearn-like door > > tracks, and gross details like the stirrups, the car is about 2 feet too > long. That said, I own about a dozen of them, bought when they were the > only game in town, and with some work (like replacing the stirrups with > A-Line) still a reasonable stand-in. > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > > ======================================================= > Michael Hauk wrote: > > > Greetings! > > > > I got the latest Walthers sale catalog in the mail today. They are > > having a sale on the Trainline X29's. > > > > I was wondering how accurate these models are. I know they probably > > compare poorly to a Westerfield or Red Caboose model, but are they a > > "good enough" representation of an X29? Or are they wildly off the mark > > in some fashion? > > > > As an aside, how long until Red Caboose offers the X29 in plain vanilla > > pre-war circle-keystone again? I would think this would be a consistent > > seller, but is not available on their website. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Doc H. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Rich Meyer of Champion Decals Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:31:00 -0700 Just got this online this afternoon...sad news. Subject: Rich Meyer of Champion Decals According to the Minot Daily News, Rich Meyer of Champ Decals passed away Saturday at his home. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rich Meyer of Champion Decals Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:02:56 -0400 He has been sick for the past several months and had not been getting any better. All those who had dealings with him knew that it was only a matter of time. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 7:31 PM Subject: [PRR] Rich Meyer of Champion Decals > Just got this online this afternoon...sad news. > > Subject: Rich Meyer of Champion Decals > > > > According to the Minot Daily News, Rich Meyer of Champ > Decals passed away > Saturday at his home. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:27:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's --part1_a4.3c3becd6.2c8e867c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They pale by comparison to today's models. The Trainline cars are the old Train Minatures of Illinois cars from the 70's. When TMI first brought them out they were the best thing going in a non-Athearn box car. The lower heigth allowed a nice visual change from the standard fair of their time. The underbody detail was all cast into the floor but do not know if Walthers changed that for the Trainline release. The trucks on the TMI and the Trainline cars can stand metal wheel sets and a pass with an axle pocket trueing tool. One personal observation on these versus highly detailed cars, these cars hold up much better where operation is the theme on a layout. The highly detailed cars quickly loose their air hoses, stirrup steps and other fine detail. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_a4.3c3becd6.2c8e867c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They pale by comparison to today's models= . The Trainline cars are the old Train Minatures of Illinois cars from= the 70's. When TMI first brought them out they were the best thing go= ing in a non-Athearn box car. The lower heigth allowed a nice visual c= hange from the standard fair of their time. The underbody detail was a= ll cast into the floor but do not know if Walthers changed that for the Trai= nline release. The trucks on the TMI and the Trainline cars can stand=20= metal wheel sets and a pass with an axle pocket trueing tool.

One personal observation on these versus highly detailed cars, =20= these cars hold up much better where operation is the theme on a layout.&nbs= p; The highly detailed cars quickly loose their air hoses, stirrup steps and= other fine detail.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_a4.3c3becd6.2c8e867c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:38:55 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C37659.FCDB4020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan Leisey wrote: "When TMI first brought them out they were the best thing going in a = non-Athearn box car. The lower height allowed a nice visual change from = the standard fare of their time." Sadly, most of the market didn't feel that way at the time. Most = hobbyists still believed that the Athearn 40 ft boxcar was the de facto = standard prototype boxcar, and many denounced the T-M car as being = undersized and out of scale. T-M also offered the car in a variety of = paint schemes, some way too modern for the car, and many bogus ones as = well. (I have the carcass of one painted in the NYC Pacemaker scheme!) "The underbody detail was all cast into the floor but do not know if = Walthers changed that for the Trainline release." A poor excuse of a triple valve is molded into the floor. The brake = cylinder and reservoir are molded onto the centersill/crossmember = casting. The original T-M underframe had the coupler pocket covers as = part of the centersill casting. The coupler pockets were designed for a = press fit, which didn't work out so well. Walthers retooled the = underframe with separate coupler pocket covers and provided for screws = to keep them together.=20 "The trucks on the TMI and the Trainline cars can stand metal wheel sets = and a pass with an axle pocket truing tool." They are robust - unfortunately, they only bear a passing resemblance to = Class 2D-F8 trucks. "One personal observation on these versus highly detailed cars, these = cars hold up much better where operation is the theme on a layout. The = highly detailed cars quickly lose their air hoses, stirrup steps and = other fine detail." That's definitely true, and especially so for club layouts, where = despite the best efforts of more conscientious members, you always have = at least one ham-handed clod who gives the equipment a beating. (This = same person never understands why people are unhappy about this either.) Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C37659.FCDB4020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Evan Leisey wrote:

"When TMI = first brought=20 them out they were the best thing going in a non-Athearn box car. = The=20 lower height allowed a nice visual change from the standard fare of = their=20 time."

Sadly, most = of the market=20 didn't feel that way at the time. Most hobbyists still believed = that the=20 Athearn 40 ft boxcar was the de facto standard prototype boxcar, and = many=20 denounced the T-M car as being undersized and out of scale. T-M = also=20 offered the car in a variety of paint schemes, some way too modern for = the car,=20 and many bogus ones as well. (I have the carcass of one painted in = the NYC=20 Pacemaker scheme!)

"The=20 underbody detail was all cast into the floor but do not know if Walthers = changed=20 that for the Trainline release."

A poor excuse=20 of a triple valve is molded into the floor. The brake = cylinder and=20 reservoir are molded onto the centersill/crossmember casting. The = original=20 T-M underframe had the coupler pocket covers as part of the centersill=20 casting. The coupler pockets were designed for a press fit, = which=20 didn't work out so well. Walthers retooled the underframe with = separate=20 coupler pocket covers and provided for screws to keep them=20 together.

"The = trucks on the=20 TMI and the Trainline cars can stand metal wheel sets and a pass with an = axle=20 pocket truing tool."

They = are robust -=20 unfortunately, they only bear a passing resemblance to Class 2D-F8 = trucks.

"One = personal=20 observation on these versus highly detailed cars, these cars hold = up much=20 better where operation is the theme on a layout. The highly = detailed cars=20 quickly lose their air hoses, stirrup steps and other fine = detail."

That's definitely true, and = especially=20 so for club layouts, where despite the best efforts of more = conscientious=20 members, you always have at least one ham-handed clod who gives the = equipment a=20 beating. (This same person never understands why people are = unhappy about=20 this either.)

Ben Hom

------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C37659.FCDB4020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:22:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/03 Thanks Bruce, This is exactly what I was shooting for, as I want to be able to model the top end trains like the Broadway Ltd, but I know that the Loewy lightweight cars came in around 1938-1939. I have just ordered the PRRTHS Passenger book, and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. The detail that makes my modeliing period.... well.... challenging is that I am modeling in O Scale, not HO. I have several Williams scale length GG1s, an MTH P5a modified, a pair of Sunset B1 'Rats' and an older Sunset DD1. The P5a is painted in the 'oval stripe' theme. Is this the 'passenger' striping, or is the 'one whisker, 5 parallel stripes along the car body bottom' the passenger striping? I would LOVE to see an R1 in O scale, but due to the fact that the R1 is not known to many who do not study the PRR, I am not sure if it will ever be produced in O Scale.... Between Sunset 3rd Rail's new releases, the Walthers/All Nation kits, and the few American Standard Car Company kits that can be found here and there, I should be able to fully model my intended period. BTW: The MTH 3 rail Baggage and Postal cars are pretty good representations of the PRR prototype, and can be converted to scale. They need truck/coupler changes, as well as details like stirrups, handrails, underbody details. They are a good place to start. Of course, there is always brass, and I have a couple brass cars, but O Scale brass is like a 2nd mortage!! Thanks again Bruce!! Fred Fred, Your date of 1937-38 does mean that lightweight equipment is essentially non-existent. Within a year, a number of lightweight trainsets arrive. You need the PRRT&HS book (Tilp and Blardone, just re-released) on painting and lettering of PRR passenger cars ! From that, you will learn that the brown roof went away before the olive underbody. The olive underbody was in effect through your time-frame. The lettering was either block with cove "S", "R", "P" and "G" or newly painted Futura lettered cars. IIRC, the cars would not have gold stripes. How you plan to model your "motors" for this period? IMHO, its perhaps more challenging than the cars! P5a modifieds would have been in the striped passenger scheme, for which decals aren't available, making that a TOUGH paint job if you can even find the models!! First run GG1s (NOT BLI) would predominate although drop coupler pilot GG1s up to around 4871 might be on the propery (by the end of 1938). The GG1s would all be in the "original" scheme (5 stripe gold, Futura, side keystones with numbers). Typical power on the Broadway was the R1 ;^) I've been trying to get one but, OUCH!, they ain't cheap. Regards Bruce ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:41:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum HW Observation From: Jerry Britton It's been previously noted that the Bachmann Spectrum Heavyweight Observation is, in fact, representative of the PRR's Z74 business car. Is there anyone out there that has one of these that also has a digital camera? If so, would you please snap a pic of both sides of the car and e-mail them to me? (Suggest macro focus and increase the F stop to maximum.) I'm trying to see if this model is "close enough" to be the basis for modeling car #7503, a Z74, the "HARRISBURG", assigned to Philadelphia Division staff. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:58:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum HW Observation From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 9, 2003, at 08:41 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm trying to see if this model is "close enough" to be the basis for > modeling car #7503, a Z74, the "HARRISBURG", assigned to Philadelphia > Division staff. Also might be worth asking how close the Eastern Car Works kit #1100 is to this car. Note that Z74 #'s 7503, 7505, and 7506 were identical. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:59:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HARRISBURG Business Car From: Jerry Britton Earlier I was asking about the Bachmann Spectrum and ECW business cars as a possible start for modeling the #7503 HARRISBURG car. Maybe I missed what was obvious to others, but I didn't know this car still existed! It's been renamed/repainted the "Francis L. Suter" and resides at the Strasburg Railroad! Been hiding in the open all these years! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 15:01:53 +0000 Marvin Caldwell wrote: Train Miniatures had one very interesting, but totally incorrect, paint job on Merchandise Service car. I remember that one - it was an interpretation of MS1 (incorrect for Class X29), but suffered from the printing limitations of the time, with most models exhibiting uneven coverage in the stripes. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:11:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] P85 Coach --part1_197.1f6b0ab1.2c8f47b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the trucks on this HO car are wrong for it, what other PRR pass. equipment would have used them? Are the correct trucks available for this car? As I said in another posting, I have seen the N scale version which captures the flavor of the prototype despite the window and truck issues. The model is very nicely done. With a half dozen vendors offering HO scale interior pieces and this car having a limited seating capacity the addition of an interior should not be too expensive. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_197.1f6b0ab1.2c8f47b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since the trucks on this HO car are wrong for i= t, what other PRR pass. equipment would have used them? Ar= e the correct trucks available for this car?

As I said in another posting, I have seen the N scale version w= hich captures the flavor of the prototype despite the window and truck issue= s. The model is very nicely done. With a half dozen vendors offering H= O scale interior pieces and this car having a limited seating capacity the a= ddition of an interior should not be too expensive.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_197.1f6b0ab1.2c8f47b6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 11:43:35 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] New Haven EP-5's on the corridor >> "The EP-5 did have a nice carbody though. Imagine one in DGLE with a >> broad yellow stripe and large Keystone." > I agree (I think that Lionel did that with their 4-axle "EP-5"). > However, I have always liked the "Little Joes" that went to the South > Shore and the Milwaukee when the cold war began. It would have been neat > to see a Little Joe in DGLE with the 5-stripe whiskers. There were the early'50s experimentals, from GE or Westinghouse, with similar carbodies, albeit two unit... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:22:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum HW Observation Jerry asked: >It's been previously noted that the Bachmann Spectrum Heavyweight >Observation is, in fact, representative of the PRR's Z74 business car. > >Is there anyone out there that has one of these that also has a digital >camera? > >If so, would you please snap a pic of both sides of the car and e-mail >them to me? (Suggest macro focus and increase the F stop to maximum.) For anyone who is interested, the following is a scan of the ECW car sides http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Z74.jpeg Since the rumor says Botchman copied the ECW cars...who knows. BTW, the Bachman has been called a Z74D by some in the know... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:35:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum HW Observation From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 9, 2003, at 02:22 PM, Bruce F. Smith wrote: > > For anyone who is interested, the following is a scan of the ECW car > sides > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Z74.jpeg > > Since the rumor says Botchman copied the ECW cars...who knows. BTW, > the > Bachman has been called a Z74D by some in the know... The ECW car does NOT match the Z74 drawings on Rob's site for car #'s 7503 (HARRISBURG), 7505, and 7506. However, these drawings are known (by me) to be prior to makeovers to at least car #7503 that occurred sometime later. I have a photo of one side of #7503 after its makeover, but it still doesn't match the ECW car. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:30:48 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/03 Fred says: >The detail that makes my modeliing period.... well.... >challenging is that I am modeling in O Scale, not HO. >I have several Williams scale length GG1s, an MTH P5a >modified, a pair of Sunset B1 'Rats' and an older >Sunset DD1. Well Fred, that makes life more interesting! >The P5a is painted in the 'oval stripe' theme. Is this >the 'passenger' striping, or is the 'one whisker, 5 >parallel stripes along the car body bottom' the >passenger striping? Indeed, the "oval stripe" is the "passenger scheme". The "one over five" was also a passenger scheme, and may have been developed as a special scheme for the Worlds fair...it sure looks like the DD1 schemes used on the Worlds Fair trains. AFAIK, the scheme was only applied to two, or perhaps three P5a modifieds and included modifying the body sheathing to create rounded air vents and applying steel numbers over the vents >I would LOVE to see an R1 in O scale, but due to the >fact that the R1 is not known to many who do not study >the PRR, I am not sure if it will ever be produced in >O Scale.... Locomotive Workshop, Englishtown, NJ had advertised O scale kits for L6a, L5, R1 and O1a (as well as some PRR steam). I'm not sure of the status of the company (the web site has been down for awhile) or the owner. >Between Sunset 3rd Rail's new releases, the >Walthers/All Nation kits, and the few American >Standard Car Company kits that can be found here and >there, I should be able to fully model my intended >period. BTW: The MTH 3 rail Baggage and Postal cars >are pretty good representations of the PRR prototype, >and can be converted to scale. They need truck/coupler >changes, as well as details like stirrups, handrails, >underbody details. They are a good place to start. Of >course, there is always brass, and I have a couple >brass cars, but O Scale brass is like a 2nd mortage!! Speaking of 2nd mortgages, did anyone else notice the O scale J1 in the latest Walthers mailing...now's the time to buy ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum HW Observation Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 14:02:41 -0700 Bruce, Since I am the one that made the claim that Bachman copied the ECW car, I accept full responsibility for the claim. No need to refer to it as a rumor! I discovered this when the cars first came out a couple of years ago and I was curious why they would choose such an "obscure" (to most modelers) prototype to model. I examined them using a magnifying glass and noticed evidence that the sharpness of such items as window edges and rivets appeared unsharp, as if the master had been cast from an existing part. Additional examination showed that some underframe detail, such as tanks, showed evidence of "parting lines" right where the tanks on the ECW kits would have been glued together. The sum total of these observations led me to conclude that these cars were plagerized from existing ECW kits, and passed off as a totally new product. You are free to examine these cars yourself and come to your own conclusions. If you choose to do so, please post your observations and conclusions. Thanks, Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] RS unit Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:55:19 -0400 Hi All, I have been on an Alco kick for the past few months buying photos and slides, as well as occasionally bashing at one of my brass units trying to make it into something. The following was in a set of 4 slides from a recent Ebay win. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg Note the truck style exhaust just in front of the horns. I have never seen this before, or know what it could be for. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Hello List... I collect PRR engineer and firemen's "Time Books" The oldest one I have is from 1929 and belonged to an engineer who worked out of Buffalo and Erie area. It looked like he was a regular engineer on PRR freight "BEC-1 and BEC-2. This engineer worked this train between "Erie" and "NZ" with an I1s or an L1s locomotive. Anyone know where "NZ" is located? Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:55:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS unit Hi All, I have been on an Alco kick for the past few months buying photos and slides, as well as occasionally bashing at one of my brass units trying to make it into something. The following was in a set of 4 slides from a recent Ebay win. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg Note the truck style exhaust just in front of the horns. I have never seen this before, or know what it could be for. Enjoy! Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Hello List... I collect PRR engineer and firemen's "Time Books" The oldest one I have is from 1929 and belonged to an engineer who worked out of Buffalo and Erie area. It looked like he was a regular engineer on PRR freight "BEC-1 and BEC-2. This engineer worked this train between "Erie" and "NZ" with an I1s or an L1s locomotive. Anyone know where "NZ" is located? Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.... Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:11:54 -0400 Re: Anyone know where "NZ" is located? Any help is appreciated. Dave, "NZ" block station is on the Allegheny Branch of the old Conemaugh Division at Parker's Landing. I don't understand what BEC-1 and BEC-2 would be doing going by there? It went from Buffalo to Corry to Erie to New Castle to Youngstown, Alliance, Canton and Crestline. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:35:25 -0400 The only N(anything) I can find between Erie and Buffalo is NU at Angola. However I know the PENNSY changed some names at least ones and my charts as from the 1950's and 60's. I have two photo's of the same tower in Irvineton Pa one is labeled VA (1947) the other IRV (1960's?). I still don't know when they changed. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. > Re: Anyone know where "NZ" is located? Any help is appreciated. > > Dave, > > "NZ" block station is on the Allegheny Branch of the old Conemaugh > Division at Parker's Landing. > I don't understand what BEC-1 and BEC-2 would be doing going by there? > It went from Buffalo to Corry to Erie to New Castle to Youngstown, > Alliance, Canton and Crestline. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Al and list, I didn't think that BEC-1/2 use the Conemaugh Main. So "NZ" may be some type of code. I broke out all my maps,track charts,books, and I can't find a clue. Someone out there knows. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:11:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Re: Anyone know where "NZ" is located? Any help is appreciated. Dave, "NZ" block station is on the Allegheny Branch of the old Conemaugh Division at Parker's Landing. I don't understand what BEC-1 and BEC-2 would be doing going by there? It went from Buffalo to Corry to Erie to New Castle to Youngstown, Alliance, Canton and Crestline. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 23:17:25 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. NZ in this case may be a Telegraph Station address code. Frequently, time book, time slip, train record notations referring to stations came from codes in the ct 1000. Many locations were numbered, some were telegraph addressed and some locations had both. For instance Thurlow Yard in Chester, PA was designated 8515 in the Ct 1000, and also TA. Industrial drill orders and train records also used the same codes. This practice sort of disappeared as time went on and PRR became PC then CR, and the CT 1000 became obsolete, and was replaced by DICCS which was replaces by ZITS. JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. List, I must thank Mr. Witcofsky for pointing me in the right direction. You were right about the CT1000 codes. Thats the one place I didn't check. Pulled out the 1923 edition and there it was as plain as day. "NZ" is the code for Ebenezer Yard near Buffalo N.Y. Thanks Joe. So now I know where this engineer was going. BTW, the engineer's name and address is in the back of the book. He hired on the PRR in 1906. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] "PX" Train question Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:02:33 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03D2_01C3772E.D5B33B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR-Listers: I am doing some research on train movements in the Warsaw, Indiana area, = circa 1965. The research is part of the article for the Keystone as well = as a presentation at next year's PRRT&HS convention. I have encountered the following train symbols: 1.. "PX" - typically pulled by E-units=20 2.. CB-1 - origin/destination unknown=20 3.. AC-2 - " " " " "=20 4.. CS-8 - " " " " " Doe anyone know anything about these trains? What commodities did they = pull? Were they hot trains? Where the "PX" trains the predecessors to = the "Perishable eXpress" trains that were seen in the Conrail era? Also, there were two mail trains, 45 and 52. They were pulled by E-units = as well. What was the typical make up of these mail trains? 2-3 E-units = and a string of X-29's, R-50b's, B-60's REA Express Reefers? Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide me! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_03D2_01C3772E.D5B33B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

PRR-Listers:

I am doing some research on train movements in the Warsaw, Indiana = area,=20 circa 1965. The research is part of the article for the Keystone as well = as a=20 presentation at next year's PRRT&HS convention.

I have encountered the following train symbols:

"PX" - typically pulled by E-units=20
CB-1 - origin/destination unknown=20
AC-2=20 = - " "&nbs= p; " &nbs= p; " "=20
CS-8=20 = - " = ;" " &nbs= p; " &nbs= p;"

Doe anyone know anything about these trains? What commodities did = they=20 pull? Were they hot trains? Where the "PX" trains the predecessors = to the=20 "Perishable eXpress" trains that were seen in the Conrail era?

Also, there were two mail trains, 45 and 52. They were pulled by = E-units as=20 well. What was the typical make up of these mail trains? 2-3 = E-units and a=20 string of X-29's, R-50b's, B-60's REA Express Reefers?

Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide = me!

Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_000_03D2_01C3772E.D5B33B80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainline PRR X29's Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 15:01:53 +0000 Marvin Caldwell wrote: Train Miniatures had one very interesting, but totally incorrect, paint job on Merchandise Service car. I remember that one - it was an interpretation of MS1 (incorrect for Class X29), but suffered from the printing limitations of the time, with most models exhibiting uneven coverage in the stripes. Ben Hom ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information on a proactive email security service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:35:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Engineer's Time Books. The only N(anything) I can find between Erie and Buffalo is NU at Angola. However I know the PENNSY changed some names at least ones and my charts as from the 1950's and 60's. I have two photo's of the same tower in Irvineton Pa one is labeled VA (1947) the other IRV (1960's?). I still don't know when they changed. Brian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] RS unit Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:01:37 -0500 I think that may be what's left of the radio antenna support after (most of) its removal. I've seen other pictures of RS-3s like this. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR] RS unit Hi All, I have been on an Alco kick for the past few months buying photos and slides, as well as occasionally bashing at one of my brass units trying to make it into something. The following was in a set of 4 slides from a recent Ebay win. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg Note the truck style exhaust just in front of the horns. I have never seen this before, or know what it could be for. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] "PX" Train question Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:27:04 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3777D.B2940BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, Here's a starter I'll check out the others later. I gotta run. Al PX stands for Passenger Extra CS-8 Chicago-Enola (from 1954 through freight schedules) Chi 55th St. Consist-freight, other than livestock and perishables but including Ft. Wayne and Canton perishables, and including open top cars, loaded lumber and poles for points as per makeup. Make Up - Blocks 1 - Canton and Youngstown Perishables only 2 - Altoona and so routing to Sodus Point, Wilkes Barre, Hudson, Buttonwood, Nanticoke, Mt. Carnell and beyond, and to Enola-Harrisburg exclusive. 3 - Lima and so routing. 4 - Enola-Harrisburg and beyond. 5 - Ft. Wayne and so routing (perishables only). Colehour - picks up per consist and makeup. Ft. Wayne - sets off Block 5. Lima - Sets off Block 3 - picks up as per makeup Crestline - pickup per consist, maintaining order of makeup (tonnage permitting). Canton - Sets off Block 1. Altoona - Sets off Block 2. Enola - Terminates. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3777D.B2940BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Ted,

Here's a starter = I'll check out=20 the others later. I gotta run.

PX stands for = Passenger=20 Extra

CS-8 = Chicago-Enola =20 (from 1954 through freight schedules)

Chi 55th=20 St.

Consist-freight, = other than=20 livestock and perishables but including Ft. Wayne and Canton = perishables, and=20 including open top cars, loaded lumber and poles for points as per=20 makeup.

Make Up - = Blocks

1 - Canton and = Youngstown=20 Perishables only

2 - Altoona and so = routing to=20 Sodus Point, Wilkes Barre, Hudson, Buttonwood, Nanticoke, Mt. Carnell = and=20 beyond, and to Enola-Harrisburg exclusive.

3 - Lima and so=20 routing.

4 - = Enola-Harrisburg and=20 beyond.

5 - Ft. Wayne and = so routing=20 (perishables only).

Colehour - picks up = per consist=20 and makeup.

Ft. Wayne - sets = off Block=20 5.

Lima - Sets off = Block 3 - picks=20 up as per makeup

Crestline - pickup = per consist,=20 maintaining order of makeup (tonnage permitting).

Canton - Sets off = Block=20 1.

Altoona - Sets off = Block=20 2.

Enola -=20 Terminates.

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3777D.B2940BD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:46:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RS unit --part1_15f.2570d508.2c908550_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "exhaust pipe" in question is most likely a crankcase vent which has been replumbed "up" in order to carry the fumes away from the engineer's window. On most of the shortline RS-3 and MRS-1 Alcos I've worked on, the engineers complained and we ended up moving the crankcase vent in order to get the fumes up into "slipstream" and away from the cab. George Payne --part1_15f.2570d508.2c908550_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The "exhaust pipe" in question is most likely a crankc= ase vent which has been replumbed "up" in order to carry the fumes away from= the engineer's window. On most of the shortline RS-3 and MRS-1 Alcos=20= I've worked on, the engineers complained and we ended up moving the crankcas= e vent in order to get the fumes up into "slipstream" and away from the cab.=

George Payne --part1_15f.2570d508.2c908550_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: r.r.farquharson@att.net Subject: [PRR] P85 - Where did they run? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:50:06 +0000 I'd like to take the discussion on the upcoming P85 in a different direction. What trains did these cars see service on and in what time frame? I am particularly interested in any trains they may have appeared on that traversed the Middle Division in the 1950-1952 time frame. Were they only on the long distance, limited stop trains? Or did they see service on trains that made plenty of intermediate stops as well? Were the Middle Division local trains in the early 50's still using P70's? Thanks in advance. Bob Farquharson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] RS unit Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:51:30 -0400 Just as an FYI, there is one of these old PRR Alco units ( Minus the exhaust pipe ) abandoned in the weeds just outside of the complex where the Philadelphia newspapers are printed. You can see it off of route 29. It's in pretty poor condition though, must have been sitting there for years Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lane Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR] RS unit Hi All, I have been on an Alco kick for the past few months buying photos and slides, as well as occasionally bashing at one of my brass units trying to make it into something. The following was in a set of 4 slides from a recent Ebay win. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg Note the truck style exhaust just in front of the horns. I have never seen this before, or know what it could be for. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:09:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR RS unit --part1_189.1e83be62.2c908aa7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The pipe on the engineers side of the long hood is some sort of vent. I recall these on the Reading, where three different versions of the RS-3 had them: passenger w/o dynamic brake, freight w/o dynamic brake and freight with dynamic brake. Mysteriously these vent pipes disappeared on some units when backshopping was done. Whether they were rerouted internal to the hood or eliminated I do not know. In cold weather a light emission of steam vapor would come from this vent. Crankcase vent?? The configuration of the vent pipe appears to be dependent on the production time period when the unit was built. Some have the pipe coming out of the hood just above the walkway then running up the side, others as this PRR photo and still others, as on the Reading, came out the top of the hood curve at the roof line. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_189.1e83be62.2c908aa7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The pipe on the engineers side of the long hood= is some sort of vent. I recall these on the Reading, where three diff= erent versions of the RS-3 had them: passenger w/o dynamic brake, frei= ght w/o dynamic brake and freight with dynamic brake. Mysteriously the= se vent pipes disappeared on some units when backshopping was done. Whether=20= they were rerouted internal to the hood or eliminated I do not know. I= n cold weather a light emission of steam vapor would come from this vent. Cr= ankcase vent??

The configuration of the vent pipe appears to be dependent on the pro= duction time period when the unit was built. Some have the pipe coming= out of the hood just above the walkway then running up the side, others as=20= this PRR photo and still others, as on the Reading, came out the top of the=20= hood curve at the roof line.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_189.1e83be62.2c908aa7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:33:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] P85br Trucks --part1_8.3c951f47.2c90904b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that the subject of the trucks on DPH's Pennsy P85br coach being offered assembled through Intermountain has been run into the ground, are there correct trucks currently on the market? If not, it there a current truck that lends itself to modification? Having seen the N scale version of this car last Monday, I eagerly await the release of the HO version. The work is too nice pass up and I will not be left saying, "I wish I had...". Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_8.3c951f47.2c90904b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that the subject of the trucks on DPH's Pen= nsy P85br coach being offered assembled through Intermountain has been run i= nto the ground, are there correct trucks currently on the market? = ; If not, it there a current truck that lends itself to modification?

Having seen the N scale version of this car last Monday, I eage= rly await the release of the HO version. The work is too nice pass up=20= and I will not be left saying, "I wish I had...".

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_8.3c951f47.2c90904b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:54:53 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "PX" Train question Ted: For CS-8 info go to: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/cs8_1960.html The other trains are not included with the information on Mark Bej's site. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:54:15 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: "PX" Train question Ted, Unless your references sources show a "PX" train as a specific train in a list of trains, the term "PX" refers to a Passenger Extra, where that usage is defined in the rulebook. Generally one finds definitions of "Passenger Extras," "Work Extras," and "Extras," all of which are sub-categories of Extra Trains. As Peter Josserand points out in _Rights of Trains_, a train order addressed to "Westward Extras," for instance, does _not_ apply to PX and WX trains. An order addressed to "Westward Extra Trains" applies to all (westward) extra trains. Steve Bartlett Ted Andrews wrote: ..... PRR-Listers: ..... I have encountered the following train symbols: 1.. "PX" - typically pulled by E-units=20 ... Where the "PX" trains the predecessors to = the "Perishable eXpress" trains that were seen in the Conrail era? ... Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide me! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: "PX" Train question Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:04:06 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C377AC.CA26B340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess you all know we also used the term "POTUS" for trains carrying the President on board. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Bartlett [mailto:tower.op@verizon.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:54 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: "PX" Train question Ted, Unless your references sources show a "PX" train as a specific train in a list of trains, the term "PX" refers to a Passenger Extra, where that usage is defined in the rulebook. Generally one finds definitions of "Passenger Extras," "Work Extras," and "Extras," all of which are sub-categories of Extra Trains. As Peter Josserand points out in _Rights of Trains_, a train order addressed to "Westward Extras," for instance, does _not_ apply to PX and WX trains. An order addressed to "Westward Extra Trains" applies to all (westward) extra trains. Steve Bartlett Ted Andrews wrote: ..... PRR-Listers: ..... I have encountered the following train symbols: 1.. "PX" - typically pulled by E-units=20 ... Where the "PX" trains the predecessors to = the "Perishable eXpress" trains that were seen in the Conrail era? ... Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide me! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C377AC.CA26B340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I=20 guess you all know we also used the term "POTUS" for trains carrying the = President on board.

Bill=20 V.

-----Original Message-----
From: = Stephen Bartlett=20 [mailto:tower.op@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September = 10, 2003=20 5:54 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Re: "PX" Train = question

Ted,

Unless your references sources show a = "PX" train=20 as a specific train in
a list of trains, the term "PX" refers to a=20 Passenger Extra, where that
usage is defined in the rulebook. = Generally one finds definitions of
"Passenger Extras," "Work = Extras," and=20 "Extras," all of which are
sub-categories of Extra Trains. As = Peter=20 Josserand points out in
_Rights of Trains_, a train order addressed = to=20 "Westward Extras," for
instance, does _not_ apply to PX and WX=20 trains. An order addressed to
"Westward Extra Trains" applies = to all=20 (westward) extra trains.

Steve Bartlett

Ted Andrews=20 wrote:
.....
PRR-Listers:

.....
I have encountered the = following train symbols:

1.. "PX" - typically pulled by=20 E-units=3D20
... Where the "PX" trains the predecessors to = =3D
the=20 "Perishable eXpress" trains that were seen in the Conrail=20 era?
...
Thanks in advance for any information that you can = provide=20 me!

Ted Andrews
Carmel,=20 = Indiana

----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C377AC.CA26B340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:06:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 - Where did they run? -------------------------------1063220798 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, The p85s were assigned to the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Trains as the Liberty Limited, Jeffersonian, Trail Blazer Cincinnati Ltd. , etc., used P85s exclusively as well as The General and The Spirit of St. Louis when they lost their all Pullman status. Lessor Blue Ribbon trains such as the Manhattan Limited, Pennsylvania Limited ect.had a mixture of P85 and of course any of the rebuilt p70 series. On these trains long distance passengers were placed in the p85s while shorter distance and "shorts" were seated in the p70s. -------------------------------1063220798 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello list,

= ; The p85s were assigned to the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Trains as the Liberty Lim= ited, Jeffersonian, Trail Blazer Cincinnati Ltd. , etc., used P85s exclusive= ly as well as The General and The Spirit of St. Louis when they lost their a= ll Pullman status. Lessor Blue Ribbon trains such as the Manhattan Lim= ited, Pennsylvania Limited ect.had a mixture of P85 and of course any of the= rebuilt p70 series. On these trains long distance passengers were pla= ced in the p85s while shorter distance and "shorts" were seated in the p70s.=

-------------------------------1063220798-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:10:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Maybe an enginehouse designation? i.e. c.t.e. was Camden Term. Enginehouse I doubt he went off duty at a tower. Boomer ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:32:57 +0000 Seen in the Model Power "Metal Train" line: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/490-2214 OK, even if we ignore the fact that the Pennsy had a sum total of one (1) offset hopper (which wasn't a ballast hopper), copying the paint scheme from Class H9s #5211 onto a hopper car is, well, you decide. ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] RE: RS unit Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:47:09 -0700 The unidetified object appears to be a crankcase breather. Bob Kessler Subject: RS unit From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:55:19 -0400 Hi All, I have been on an Alco kick for the past few months buying photos and slides, as well as occasionally bashing at one of my brass units trying to make it into something. The following was in a set of 4 slides from a recent Ebay win. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg Note the truck style exhaust just in front of the horns. I have never seen this before, or know what it could be for. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:23:42 -0400 Ben, thanx for calling this bogus PRR ballast hopper to our attention. PRR ballast hoppers similar to the style shown were reconstructed from class H21 open top hoppers. The problems with this model are: 1. PRR H21k ballast hoppers, like the H21's from whence they came were outside braced, not offset. The PRR was not a user of offset cars, they had only one (another difference between the PRR and NYC). 2. PRR work equipment was painted red, gray or yellow not black (depending on era). The H21k's were yellow. Steam cranes, derricks and scale test cars were black though. 3. PRR work equipment when red was lettered white, when gray or yellow was lettered black not gold/buff. 4. PRR work equipment was numbered in the 480000-499968 + 994481-999953 blocks not 5211. 5. PRR work equipment did not use the style lettering nor the placement offered on the model. This model is not even an adequate stand in - it's WRONG in every aspect - design, color, lettering and number!. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bert Decker" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:44:53 -0400 But Al, it has the same number of wheelsets - surely that counts for something! Bert D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:47:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RS unit In a message dated 9/10/03 10:05:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com writes: << Just as an FYI, there is one of these old PRR Alco units ( Minus the exhaust pipe ) abandoned in the weeds just outside of the complex where the Philadelphia newspapers are printed. You can see it off of route 29. It's in pretty poor condition though, must have been sitting there for years >> The unit in question is the ex PRR 8479 which was owned by the AHRS. It was purchased as a parts unit as it was missing some major components from it's prime mover. It was an ex Amtrak unit after it's PC years . I tried a few years ago to get it to Strasburg but they indicated at the time they were not interested. It's a shame as it's one of two ex PRR RS-3 units that still exist in their pure Alco version. ------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] RS unit Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:01:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C377BD.29F06310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 8602 I believe is in Florida at the Gulf Coast Ry. Museum in Parrish, FL Bill v. -----Original Message----- From: KEMACPRR@aol.com [mailto:KEMACPRR@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:48 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RS unit In a message dated 9/10/03 10:05:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com writes: << Just as an FYI, there is one of these old PRR Alco units ( Minus the exhaust pipe ) abandoned in the weeds just outside of the complex where the Philadelphia newspapers are printed. You can see it off of route 29. It's in pretty poor condition though, must have been sitting there for years >> The unit in question is the ex PRR 8479 which was owned by the AHRS. It was purchased as a parts unit as it was missing some major components from it's prime mover. It was an ex Amtrak unit after it's PC years . I tried a few years ago to get it to Strasburg but they indicated at the time they were not interested. It's a shame as it's one of two ex PRR RS-3 units that still exist in their pure Alco version. ------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C377BD.29F06310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

The=20 8602 I believe is in Florida at the Gulf Coast Ry. Museum in Parrish,=20 FL

Bill=20 v.

-----Original Message-----
From: = KEMACPRR@aol.com=20 [mailto:KEMACPRR@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, = 2003 4:48=20 PM
To: PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] RS=20 unit

In a message dated 9/10/03 10:05:21 AM Eastern = Daylight=20 Time,
ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com writes:

<< Just as an = FYI,=20 there is one of these old PRR Alco units ( Minus the
exhaust = pipe )=20 abandoned in the weeds just outside of the complex where
the=20 Philadelphia newspapers are printed. You can see it off of=20 route
29. It's in pretty poor condition though, must = have been=20 sitting there
for years >>

The unit in = question is=20 the ex PRR 8479 which was owned by the AHRS. It was
purchased as a = parts=20 unit as it was missing some major components from it's
prime mover. = It was=20 an ex Amtrak unit after it's PC years . I tried a few years
ago to = get it=20 to Strasburg but they indicated at the time they were = not
interested. It's=20 a shame as it's one of two ex PRR RS-3 units that still exist = in
their pure=20 Alco version.
------------------------------- Ken = = McCorry

----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C377BD.29F06310-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:21:34 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Al says: >Ben, thanx for calling this bogus PRR ballast hopper to our attention. > >PRR ballast hoppers similar to the style shown were reconstructed from >class H21 open top hoppers. The problems with this model are: > >1. PRR H21k ballast hoppers, like the H21's from whence they came were >outside braced, not offset. The PRR was not a user of offset cars, they >had only one (another difference between the PRR and NYC). I would LOVE to see an HO model of the earlier PRR ballast car, the GP! I realize that it would probably be a resin only kinda beast, but with the large side doors and outside braced body, its pretty cool...on top of that, they were around well into the 1950's so most PRR modelers could use one or two...I wonder if we could con Al Westerfield into it... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:37:25 -0400 Re: But Al, it has the same number of wheelsets - surely that counts for something! Yes, however, I didn't check, but no doubt it has the wrong trucks too. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:48:07 -0400 Re: I would LOVE to see an HO model of the earlier PRR ballast car, the GP! Yes, Bruce so would I, actually they were still around in the 60s. I had one in the Canton MW yard in 1965. Westerfield is a possibility. There was an article on how to make a GPa from a Westerfield H21 kit by Bob Chapman in the March 1996 MLM. He speculated one could also start w/ a Bowser H21. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Bogus PRR Product Alert Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:23:14 -0700 Hey Bruce... Get on the Steam era freight car list and ask him! Just do it...who knows, the worst he can say is no. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:21:34 -0500 "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Al says: > >Ben, thanx for calling this bogus PRR ballast hopper to > our attention. > > > >PRR ballast hoppers similar to the style shown were > reconstructed from > >class H21 open top hoppers. The problems with this model > are: > > > >1. PRR H21k ballast hoppers, like the H21's from whence > they came were > >outside braced, not offset. The PRR was not a user of > offset cars, they > >had only one (another difference between the PRR and > NYC). > > I would LOVE to see an HO model of the earlier PRR > ballast car, the GP! I > realize that it would probably be a resin only kinda > beast, but with the > large side doors and outside braced body, its pretty > cool...on top of that, > they were around well into the 1950's so most PRR > modelers could use one or > two...I wonder if we could con Al Westerfield into it... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be > happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ > ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ > __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 > 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P70-FAR Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:51:08 -0400 Guys, Tip of the hat to those kind folks who directed me in correcting the warping on on my kit. I applied a 5/32" brass angle where the sides abute the floor. Dang if that didn't take care of the problems. As to the underbody detail, I'll be looking over the books I mentioned, paying careful attention to the "play by play" description provided byBob Kessler. Many thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: RS unit Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:07:12 -0400 That may be correct but doesn't it have the weighted flap on it that only opens when exhaust is coming out of the pipe. If that's the case would a crankcase breather be venting fumes forcefully enough to open the "flapper". Yes I know my descriptions sound extremely technical.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kessler" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 3:47 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: RS unit > > > The unidetified object appears to be a crankcase breather. > > > Bob Kessler > > > Subject: RS unit > From: "Bill Lane" > Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:55:19 -0400 > > Hi All, > > I have been on an Alco kick for the past few months buying photos and > slides, as well as occasionally bashing at one of my brass units trying to > make it into something. The following was in a set of 4 slides from a recent > Ebay win. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg Note the truck > style exhaust just in front of the horns. I have never seen this before, or > know what it could be for. > > Enjoy! > Bill > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:27:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: RS unit In a message dated 9/11/03 12:06:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kkollar@cplx.net writes: << That may be correct but doesn't it have the weighted flap on it that only opens when exhaust is coming out of the pipe. If that's the case would a crankcase breather be venting fumes forcefully enough to open the "flapp >> The crankcase breather needs no flap. In fact the breather on the FA-1/2's simply exited the roof with an open vent. Most units developed a nice oily stream down the firemans side carbody . Later some were piped to exhaust under the carbody. Most car engines have something similar but they use intake vacuum to pull the crankcase vapors out thru a PCV valve. --------------- Ken McCorry Alco Owner. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:18:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR TALK: X23 MOW cars From: beth capl caples I need to know what size windows and doors were added during the X-23 cars conversion to maint. of way cars. (the rectangular windows with walkway doors in the ends of the car) Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:21:17 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR TALK: X23 MOW cars The Eastern Shore Railway Museum in Parksley, VA has one. I have some photos which I can send along to give you a rough idea of placement. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva where its 60 and sunny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:40:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Loco Assignments --part1_1ca.10a6c9b2.2c91c737_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How common was it to find a freight steamer or the EMD E units east of Harrisburg on the mainline? Would the M and J class steamers have operated into Philly on a regular basis? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1ca.10a6c9b2.2c91c737_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How common was it to find a freight steamer or=20= the EMD E units east of Harrisburg on the mainline? Would the M and J=20= class steamers have operated into Philly on a regular basis?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1ca.10a6c9b2.2c91c737_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:40:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] First Call - Layout Open House Dates From: Jerry Britton Believe it or not, but I've already received a couple of dates for open houses this season. So, if anyone else out there is offering a home or club layout open house and would like it advertised on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings, please forward info to me. Since this is early, I'll ask again in October. FYI, Timetable page is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Assignments Evan, Plenty of M1's seen service on the Philly div. I have many b/w photos of these locos in this location, most in the 1930's. The J1 is a different story. I don't think I have seen evidence of these east of Altoona....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:00:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Assignments From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 08:54 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Plenty of M1's seen service on the Philly div. I have many b/w > photos of these locos in this location, most in the 1930's. The J1 is > a > different story. I don't think I have seen evidence of these east of > Altoona....Gary Gary, all: I have read in numerous places that the J1 had clearance issues east of Altoona. Two specific spots come to mind... 1) Spruce Creek tunnels 2) Duckunder or tunnel (depending on route) at west end of Rockville Bridge to enter Enola Yard. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry S." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:39:10 -0400 Dave, The 1945 ct1000c shows New Castle as 'NK'. Could that be it? -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, and Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >Reply-To: PRR@yahoogroups.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Engineer's Time Books. >Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:11:36 -0400 (EDT) > >Hello List... > > I collect PRR engineer and firemen's "Time Books" The oldest one >I have is from 1929 and belonged to an engineer who worked out of >Buffalo and Erie area. It looked like he was a regular engineer on PRR >freight "BEC-1 and BEC-2. This engineer worked this train between "Erie" >and "NZ" with an I1s or an L1s locomotive. > Anyone know where "NZ" is located? Any help is appreciated. > >Thanks in advance.... > >Dave Hopson > > _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:42:30 +0000 PRR-Listers: First of all, I would like to thank all who have responded to my questions on the "PX" trains and the CS-8 trains through Warsaw, Indiana. I am getting a better image of the types of trains that were on the Ft. Wayne line. Now I have a related question. Many trains, from CS-8 to FW-8 to CG-2, had for "perishables." I assume these are either refridgated or (most likely) ice-reefers. Would these reefers be like the 40' wood or steel side ones? What was the typical car(s) used to carry perishables in the 1950's and 1960's? For trains like CG-2 and FW-8 that carried allot livestock as well. What were the typical livestock cars used in the 1950's and 1960's? I know that the Pennsy had K-7's and K-9's, but what types of likestock cars showed up on the PRR rails from other railroads? Can these perishable and livestock trains be easily modelled? Thanks in advance! Ted P.S.: Information of the day. CG-2 was a regular on the Fort Wayne line in 1965. However, this train symbol historically ran on the Panhandle side (as late as 1960). The shifting of this train on the Fort Wayne was perhaps the early efforts of the Pennsy in shifting priority traffic away for the Panhandle out of Chicago and onto the Fort Wayne which capacity to spare. (any comments?) _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:23:27 -0400 By the late 1950's, ALL reefer trains I saw were all steel cars, mostly FGEX and BREX, in solid blocks. By that time, most were mechanical reefers. Stock cars? I'd rather not think about it. Most of the time I had my back turned, gagging into a handkerchief when a stock train passed. I did see a few Burlington stock cars in those consists, when I was upwind. By the end of the 50's, I saw many stock trains hauled by A-B-A E7's. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:40:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 12:23 PM, andrew harmantas wrote: > By the late 1950's, ALL reefer trains I saw were all steel cars, > mostly FGEX and BREX, in solid blocks. By that time, most were > mechanical reefers. I've previously been told that in my era (1954) a lot of the 40' wooden reefers were still running. InterMountain is about to release a NEW N scale car of that variety. The initial road names will be: Fruit Growers Express Western Fruit Express WFE (Goat) BREX Swift Obviously I'm game for all of the FGE cars, which would have frequented the north-south routes through Harrisburg. Also, I'm told the Swift cars will be the earlier red design which frequented the Swift plant just west of the passenger station. I've got some PFE reefers. What about WFE? Were they common on the PRR? And what is BREX...Burlington Route? Applicable to 1954 PRR? > > Stock cars? I'd rather not think about it. Most of the time I had my > back turned, gagging into a handkerchief when a stock train passed. I > did see a few Burlington stock cars in those consists, when I was > upwind. > > By the end of the 50's, I saw many stock trains hauled by A-B-A E7's. E7's or F7's? Just checking. Hadn't been aware of E units pulling freight trains, but that's beyond my era (1954) anyway. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:52:38 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cincinnati EP-22 For those who didn't see this message, the rail museum group in Cincinnati is getting ready to stripe and letter unit #5888, their de-Amtraked, cosmetically restored E8. Bob Johnson gives a full rundown of the lettering phases -- which we all need to understand for our less-than-full size models. I've just been working with some pix of PRR E's, PA's, and Erie-Builts (not to mention K2s, K4s, and T1's) for the Keystone's upcoming issue on Cincinnati. It's exciting stuff, and it's got me looking forward to seeing you all next May in Zinzinnati at the PRRT&HS annual... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West In a message dated 9/9/03 7:31:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:36:54 -0400 > From: "Bob Johnson" > Subject: Re: EP22 lettering guide print > > Tim, > > I think most of the drawings you need are on the PRR microfilm at the > PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. I live about three hours from there, so I > can't check right now. > > You have selected the Tuscan Red, five stripe scheme for your EP-22 #5888. > As I'm sure you're aware, there are still a few decisions you need to make > regarding details within this general scheme. Some of these decisions will > affect the choice of drawings you need. The following are the date ranges > for application of the different schemes: > > Before 8-11-1952 - Dark Green with Gold Leaf lettering and striping. Five > stripes. > > 8-11-1952 to 6-18-1953 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. Five > stripes. Keystone on front contained unit number (5888 in your case). Unit > number at front was 8" high. Unit number at rear was 1 3/4" high. Striping > ran across window glass. > > 6-18-1953 to 9-2-1953 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. Five > stripes. Keystone on front contained PRR monogram. Unit number at front > was 9" high. Unit number at rear was 8" high. Striping ran across window > glass. > > 9-2-1953 to 11-16-1955 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. Five > stripes. Keystone on front contained PRR monogram. Unit number at front > was 9" high. Unit number at rear was 8" high. No striping across window > glass. > > After 11-16-1955 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. One broad > stripe with shadow keystone. > > There was also a difference in the height of the numerals in the number > boards, but the dates of change of this detail are not given on the > Lettering, Striping and Painting tracing for EP-22. These dates can > probably be determined by looking at the detail drawings for those numerals. > > If you let me know which date range you intend to follow for #5888, I can > tell you the drawing numbers you need and how to obtain them from PRRT&HS. > > One question, if I may. You mention having "the five-stripe nose print". > Is this a PRR drawing and what is its drawing number? I haven't seen > anything with that title. > > Bob Johnson, Chairman > PRRT&HS Archive Committee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "k4nn22gff" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:10 PM > Subject: [PRR-FAX] EP22 lettering guide print > > > | To All: > | > | We're a museum with PRR EP-22 #5888. Painting in Tuscan Red has > | begun, but our prints of the letter and number designs are missing, > | along with the placement diagram. I need the nose keystone, number > | board digits, side digits, and side lettering and their placement; I > | still have the five-stripe nose print. > | > | Are these drawings available in the PRRT&HS archive, or do one of you > | preservationist members have prints you can copy to me? > | > | Thanks, > | Tim Hyde > | Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:51:23 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's In the early 50s most reefers were still ice and many wooden cars could still be seen. The dominant owners were PFE and SFRD. Early 50s livestock trains would be populated with K7s and K8s. The K9s and K11s were built (converted?) later. No models of either exist :-(( The shortage of stock cars in the early 50s prompted the conversion of the X31s and X32s into K9s and K11 around 1957 (?). It also caused a lot of foreign stock cars to appear on the PRR. The biggest owners of stock cars were the ATSF, UP and GN. Their cars were probably common on PRR trains. The big push for stock trains came about in the early 50s when piggy back service (yes TOFC piggyback) came into being. These trains were fast enough to make the run from Chicago to the East that stock cars tacked on would not outlaw before delivery. That made it possible to turn a profit of livestock traffic. SO stock cars started to be added to the TrucTrains. Soon the business was so successful that dedicated stock trains running on the same high speed schedule as the TrucTrains began to appear. The most common were the NF (no feed) trains. These trains would have K7s, K8s and foreign cars. I spoke with Steve Funero at the last Springfield show about doing a K7 or K8. I don't know what will become of it. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Ted Andrews wrote: > PRR-Listers: > > First of all, I would like to thank all who have responded to my questions > on the "PX" trains and the CS-8 trains through Warsaw, Indiana. I am getting > a better image of the types of trains that were on the Ft. Wayne line. > > Now I have a related question. Many trains, from CS-8 to FW-8 to CG-2, had > for "perishables." I assume these are either refridgated or (most likely) > ice-reefers. Would these reefers be like the 40' wood or steel side ones? > What was the typical car(s) used to carry perishables in the 1950's and > 1960's? > > For trains like CG-2 and FW-8 that carried allot livestock as well. What > were the typical livestock cars used in the 1950's and 1960's? I know that > the Pennsy had K-7's and K-9's, but what types of likestock cars showed up > on the PRR rails from other railroads? > > Can these perishable and livestock trains be easily modelled? > > Thanks in advance! > > Ted > > P.S.: Information of the day. CG-2 was a regular on the Fort Wayne line in > 1965. However, this train symbol historically ran on the Panhandle side (as > late as 1960). The shifting of this train on the Fort Wayne was perhaps the > early efforts of the Pennsy in shifting priority traffic away for the > Panhandle out of Chicago and onto the Fort Wayne which capacity to spare. > (any comments?) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:52:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati EP-22 --part1_27.47b8f3e1.2c920256_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who didn't see this message, the rail museum group in Cincinnati is getting ready to stripe and letter unit #5888, their de-Amtraked, cosmetically restored E8. Bob Johnson gives a full rundown of the lettering phases -- which we all need to understand for our less-than-full size models. I've just been working with some pix of PRR E's, PA's, and Erie-Builts (not to mention K2s, K4s, and T1's) for the Keystone's upcoming issue on Cincinnati. It's exciting stuff, and it's got me looking forward to seeing you all next May in Zinzinnati at the PRRT&HS annual... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West In a message dated 9/9/03 7:31:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:36:54 -0400 > From: "Bob Johnson" > Subject: Re: EP22 lettering guide print > > Tim, > > I think most of the drawings you need are on the PRR microfilm at the > PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. I live about three hours from there, so I > can't check right now. > > You have selected the Tuscan Red, five stripe scheme for your EP-22 #5888. > As I'm sure you're aware, there are still a few decisions you need to make > regarding details within this general scheme. Some of these decisions will > affect the choice of drawings you need. The following are the date ranges > for application of the different schemes: > > Before 8-11-1952 - Dark Green with Gold Leaf lettering and striping. Five > stripes. > > 8-11-1952 to 6-18-1953 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. Five > stripes. Keystone on front contained unit number (5888 in your case). Unit > number at front was 8" high. Unit number at rear was 1 3/4" high. Striping > ran across window glass. > > 6-18-1953 to 9-2-1953 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. Five > stripes. Keystone on front contained PRR monogram. Unit number at front > was 9" high. Unit number at rear was 8" high. Striping ran across window > glass. > > 9-2-1953 to 11-16-1955 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. Five > stripes. Keystone on front contained PRR monogram. Unit number at front > was 9" high. Unit number at rear was 8" high. No striping across window > glass. > > After 11-16-1955 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. One broad > stripe with shadow keystone. > > There was also a difference in the height of the numerals in the number > boards, but the dates of change of this detail are not given on the > Lettering, Striping and Painting tracing for EP-22. These dates can > probably be determined by looking at the detail drawings for those numerals. > > If you let me know which date range you intend to follow for #5888, I can > tell you the drawing numbers you need and how to obtain them from PRRT&HS. > > One question, if I may. You mention having "the five-stripe nose print". > Is this a PRR drawing and what is its drawing number? I haven't seen > anything with that title. > > Bob Johnson, Chairman > PRRT&HS Archive Committee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "k4nn22gff" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:10 PM > Subject: [PRR-FAX] EP22 lettering guide print > > > | To All: > | > | We're a museum with PRR EP-22 #5888. Painting in Tuscan Red has > | begun, but our prints of the letter and number designs are missing, > | along with the placement diagram. I need the nose keystone, number > | board digits, side digits, and side lettering and their placement; I > | still have the five-stripe nose print. > | > | Are these drawings available in the PRRT&HS archive, or do one of you > | preservationist members have prints you can copy to me? > | > | Thanks, > | Tim Hyde > | Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati > --part1_27.47b8f3e1.2c920256_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who didn't see this message, the rail museum= group in Cincinnati is getting ready to stripe and letter unit #5888, their= de-Amtraked, cosmetically restored E8. Bob Johnson gives a full rundo= wn of the lettering phases -- which we all need to understand for our less-t= han-full size models.

I've just been working with some pix of PRR E's, PA's, and Erie-Builts (not=20= to mention K2s, K4s, and T1's) for the Keystone's upcoming issue on Cincinna= ti. It's exciting stuff, and it's got me looking forward to seeing you= all next May in Zinzinnati at the PRRT&HS annual...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

In a message dated 9/9/03 7:31:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.= com writes:

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:36:54 -0400
From: "Bob Johnson" <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: EP22 lettering guide print

Tim,

I think most of the drawings you need are on the PRR microfilm at the
PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. I live about three hours from there= , so I
can't check right now.

You have selected the Tuscan Red, five stripe scheme for your EP-22 #5888. As I'm sure you're aware, there are still a few decisions you need to make regarding details within this general scheme. Some of these decisions=20= will
affect the choice of drawings you need. The following are the date ran= ges
for application of the different schemes:

Before 8-11-1952 - Dark Green with Gold Leaf lettering and striping. F= ive
stripes.

8-11-1952 to 6-18-1953 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. =20= Five
stripes. Keystone on front contained unit number (5888 in your case).&= nbsp; Unit
number at front was 8" high. Unit number at rear was 1 3/4" high. = ; Striping
ran across window glass.

6-18-1953 to 9-2-1953 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. F= ive
stripes. Keystone on front contained PRR monogram. Unit number a= t front
was 9" high. Unit number at rear was 8" high. Striping ran acros= s window
glass.

9-2-1953 to 11-16-1955 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. =20= Five
stripes. Keystone on front contained PRR monogram. Unit number a= t front
was 9" high. Unit number at rear was 8" high. No striping across= window
glass.

After 11-16-1955 - Tuscan Red with Buff lettering and striping. One br= oad
stripe with shadow keystone.

There was also a difference in the height of the numerals in the number
boards, but the dates of change of this detail are not given on the
Lettering, Striping and Painting tracing for EP-22. These dates can probably be determined by looking at the detail drawings for those numerals.=

If you let me know which date range you intend to follow for #5888, I can tell you the drawing numbers you need and how to obtain them from PRRT&H= S.

One question, if I may. You mention having "the five-stripe nose print= ".
Is this a PRR drawing and what is its drawing number? I haven't seen anything with that title.

Bob Johnson, Chairman
PRRT&HS Archive Committee

----- Original Message -----
From: "k4nn22gff" <trhyde@fuse.net>
To: <PRR@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 11:10 PM
Subject: [PRR-FAX] EP22 lettering guide print

| To All:
|
| We're a museum with PRR EP-22 #5888. Painting in Tuscan Red has
| begun, but our prints of the letter and number designs are missing,
| along with the placement diagram. I need the nose keystone, number | board digits, side digits, and side lettering and their placement; I
| still have the five-stripe nose print.
|
| Are these drawings available in the PRRT&HS archive, or do one of you<= BR> | preservationist members have prints you can copy to me?
|
| Thanks,
| Tim Hyde
| Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati

--part1_27.47b8f3e1.2c920256_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:55:10 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 - Where did they run? There was one class of rebuilt P70, the P70K which was intended for overnight service and used interchangeably with the P85Bs when needed. The P70K were rebuilt in the late 30s for the Trailblazer and the Jeffersonian and were replaced (for the most part) by the P85Bs when they became available after the war. Other P70 rebuilds, notably the P70GS and the P70FAR would be put on trains for long distance day travelers. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= WAMMP236@aol.com wrote: > Hello list, The p85s were assigned to the Blue Ribbon > Fleet. Trains as the Liberty Limited, Jeffersonian, Trail Blazer > Cincinnati Ltd. , etc., used P85s exclusively as well as The General > and The Spirit of St. Louis when they lost their all Pullman status. > Lessor Blue Ribbon trains such as the Manhattan Limited, Pennsylvania > Limited ect.had a mixture of P85 and of course any of the rebuilt p70 > series. On these trains long distance passengers were placed in the > p85s while shorter distance and "shorts" were seated in the p70s. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:10:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 12:51 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Why would a time sensitive and high speed cargo like FGE cars be routed > through Harrisburg on a north south route? Wouldn't they have gone > straight > up the corridor? Unless they were bound for a different geographical > area? A lot of reefer trains routed through Enola went to Williamsport, Buffalo, Erie, etc. The 1954 Arranged Freight Schedule goes so far as to show specific blocks requiring re-icing at Renovo. Some blocks are also designated by cargo. Bananas were common. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:23:10 -0400 Jerry and list, When I called on the Penna. Produce Terminal in Baltimore for the PRR in 1965-1966, the majority of the cars were still ice reefers - the mechanicals were reserved for frozen foods and were received at Terminal Warehouse. The PFE's and SFRD's were all steel, but the FGE's were still a mix of wood side and all steel. By that time FGE, WFE, and BREX were all under common management and the cars were used interchangeably, as the seasons differed between Florida and the Pacific Northwest. There were also some ART's that came in from the Rio Grande Valley off the MoP. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "andrew harmantas" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's > On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 12:23 PM, andrew harmantas wrote: > > > By the late 1950's, ALL reefer trains I saw were all steel cars, > > mostly FGEX and BREX, in solid blocks. By that time, most were > > mechanical reefers. > > I've previously been told that in my era (1954) a lot of the 40' wooden > reefers were still running. InterMountain is about to release a NEW N > scale car of that variety. The initial road names will be: > > Fruit Growers Express > Western Fruit Express > WFE (Goat) > BREX > Swift > > Obviously I'm game for all of the FGE cars, which would have frequented > the north-south routes through Harrisburg. > > Also, I'm told the Swift cars will be the earlier red design which > frequented the Swift plant just west of the passenger station. > > I've got some PFE reefers. What about WFE? Were they common on the PRR? > > And what is BREX...Burlington Route? Applicable to 1954 PRR? > > > > Stock cars? I'd rather not think about it. Most of the time I had my > > back turned, gagging into a handkerchief when a stock train passed. I > > did see a few Burlington stock cars in those consists, when I was > > upwind. > > > > By the end of the 50's, I saw many stock trains hauled by A-B-A E7's. > > E7's or F7's? Just checking. Hadn't been aware of E units pulling > freight trains, but that's beyond my era (1954) anyway. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:51:51 +0000 Andy Miller wrote: "Early 50s livestock trains would be populated with K7s and K8s. The K9s and K11s were built (converted?) later. No models of either exist :-((" To clarify what Andy posted, no styrene kits exist in HO for Class K7, K7A, or K8 stock cars, though Precision Scale has done runs of these cars fairly recently. The Train-Miniature/Walthers stockcar can be used as a stand-in for Class K8, but the slat pattern and roof are incorrect. (If you go this route, get the kits with the separate letter boards, throw those parts away, correct the underframe, and go from there.) The K9 and K11 boxcar conversions are available from Bowser. "The shortage of stock cars in the early 50s prompted the conversion of the X31s and X32s into K9s and K11 around 1957 (?)." 1959. "The big push for stock trains came about in the early 50s when piggy back service (yes TOFC piggyback) came into being. These trains were fast enough to make the run from Chicago to the East that stock cars tacked on would not outlaw before delivery. That made it possible to turn a profit of livestock traffic. SO stock cars started to be added to the TrucTrains. Soon the business was so successful that dedicated stock trains running on the same high speed schedule as the TrucTrains began to appear. The most common were the NF (no feed) trains. These trains would have K7s, K8s and foreign cars." Not quite right on the equipment. You would have seen the K7s and K8s on the TrucTrains during the early months of this service, but remember, the boxcar conversions were driven by increased business coupled with the demand for more cars in better condition to operate on faster schedules. By the time NF- 4 and NF-6 got into full swing, most of the cars in the train would be K9s and K9As. Bottom line on equipment: Pre-1960, Train FW-8 and early TrucTrain expedited stock service: Class K7A, K8 Foreign road stock cars Post-1960, Trains NF-4 and NF-6 Class K9, K9A, and K11 Foreign road stock cars See "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East," Richard Burg, Railroad Model Craftsman, January 1993 for the full story. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:05:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 01:51 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > You would have seen the K7s and K8s on the > TrucTrains during the early months of this service Ben, I don't doubt what you say. You certainly know freight cars better than most. However, my observations... In my 1954 modeling research I uncovered that TrucTrain service was announced in June 1954 (though not so named until December of that year). The dedicated TT symbol TrucTrain trains would come later, as would the F39 flats that carried two trailers each. Initially the trailers were carried in LCL symbol trains on modified F30 flats (F30d's). My further research does not show stock cars on these LCL trains. However, it does show Merchandise Service cars. Now there's a nice mix...can't wait to model it!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: Expedited Stock Traffic (was Reefers on PRR Trains in Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:20:21 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: My further research does not show stock cars on these LCL trains. However, it does show Merchandise Service cars. Now there's a nice mix...can't wait to model it!!! I'm at work and don't have the article to refer to for the exact date the stock cars started showing up on the TrucTrains, but it appears that the blocks of stock cars were added to fill out tonnage on an ad hoc basis beginning around 1958, and the business grew from there. My gut feeling is that you're safe leaving the stock cars off the LCL trains in 1954 and running your stock cars in your N Scale FW-8. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:51:15 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Ted asks: >Now I have a related question. Many trains, from CS-8 to FW-8 to CG-2, had >for "perishables." I assume these are either refridgated or (most likely) >ice-reefers. Would these reefers be like the 40' wood or steel side ones? >What was the typical car(s) used to carry perishables in the 1950's and >1960's? For precise information, see Tony Thompson's PFE book and the ATSFHS Reefer book (Henrickson et al.). As has been noted, in the 1950's it woudl be ice reefers...in ice or ventilator service. In the former, hatches were down to keep the load cool, in the later hatches were open to keep the produce ventilated. Hatches were closed on empties. The subject of car mixes has come up extensively on the Steam Era Freight Car list, and its is clear that PFE and SFRD routed their reefers preferentially over ERIE rather than PRR. Thus while PFE had the most reefers, SFRD the second and FGE was third, the mix is different on the PRR. Probably closer to 50% or more FGE is appropriate (as noted a mix of wood and steel cars...the new IM cars are POST WWII) with some PFE and a few SFRD cars with loads. More PFE and SFRD cars were routed home over the PRR, so the ratio of these in westbounds can be higher. Through in some ART, URTX (General American) and you've got a fleet. As Greg Malkov noted here back in Novemeber '02, cargos were regional, and so were reefer lines, so some cargoes nearly always rode in one line's reefers. As I have noted before, the approximate ratio for FGEX to BREX to WFEX is 6:3:1 >For trains like CG-2 and FW-8 that carried allot livestock as well. What >were the typical livestock cars used in the 1950's and 1960's? I know that >the Pennsy had K-7's and K-9's, but what types of likestock cars showed up >on the PRR rails from other railroads? As noted, a mix of PRR and foreign cars. In 1950, the mix of owners was: ATSF - 7461 UP - 4386 CB&Q - 3753 MILW - 3690 CP - 3346 SP/T&NO - 3040 CN - 3037 PRR - 2315 GN - 2045 NP - 1715 NYC - 1675 RI - 1207 B&O - 1192 IC - 1100 Obviously, again you would expect the ratio of PRR cars to be higher, around 50% or maybe even more (SWAG...we need WHEEL REPORTS!!). I have seen photos of cars from ATSF, UP, MOPAC, FRISCO... on the PRR so it can vary widely. >Can these perishable and livestock trains be easily modelled? You can string together a great perishable express in HO now...much nicer than solid trains of one tyupe of car that I see go roundy round at modular shows! Models of appropriate reefers in HO: PFE - In 1945, 90% of the fleet was wood sided, but the mid '50s, it might be 50% R-40-10 - IM (steel) R-40-23 - IM (steel) R-30-18 - Terry Wegman (wood) R-30-12 - Red Caboose (wood) R-30-12-9 (or R-30-9) - Red Caboose (wood) R-30/40-2/4 - Tichy (wood) SFRD - Rebuilt ARA steel cars - IM USRA cars - Westerfield Sunshine has some SFRD cars as well FGE - Sunshine models (wood, see archives) IM (wood) BREX - Sunshine models (wood, see archives) Accurail General American reefer - Branchline Additional Ice Reefers from Sunshine (URTX, ART...), F&C (CN, CP...). Westerfield's stuff is mostly too early. As noted for stock cars, the PRR cars can cause you trouble before roughly 1960...after 1960 and you have the K9, K11 cars. Here are some other cars for the foreign cars (note I have not checked the end dates for these classes). ATSF - SK-02 (Westerfield) SK-03 (Westerfield) UP - S-40-4 (Westerfield) S-40-6 (Westerfield) S-40-12 (Marklin/Trix - coming) CB&Q - CB&Q 36' SM-18 (Sunshine 54.5) FW&D 36' SM-18 (Sunshine 54.6) MILW - 105007 series (Sunshine 54.1) 110150 series (Sunshine 54.2) SP/T&NO-S-40-4 (Westerfield) S-40-5 (Westerfield) S-40-8,9,10 (Westerfield) PRR - K7a - Train Miniatures K9 - Bowser K11 - Bowser GN - Accurail NP - Central Valley 40 foot NP 83750-83999 (Aaron Gjermundson) NYC - AHM Some other cars of interest are: P2K Mather stock car MP/IGN/NOT&M, 54000 series (Sunshine 54.3), 53850 series (Sunshine 54.4) SLSF 40' stock car 47200 series (Sunshine 54.7) Wabash (F&C - coming) Rutland (F&C) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:10:02 +0000 Bruce Smith wrote: PRR - K7a - Train Miniatures It's a closer match to Class K8. Remember, the Class K7/K7A kept the alternating diagonal pattern of the Class X23 boxcar: [\|/|D|\|/] Class K8 was a Pratt truss car, which is what the Train Miniature car is: [\|\|D|/|/] It's nothing better than a stand-in - the slat pattern, roof, and underframe are incorrect, but it's better than nothing at this point. Best regards, Ben ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:20:36 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Bruce, Thanx for the excellent compilation of available and appropriate HO cars! I have one nit to pick (as usual). The Trains Miniature car (and its Walthers' successor) is a stand-in for the K8 not the K7a. The K7a, with its Warren Truss side frame is probably one of the most distinctive signature cars you can get (if you can get it). Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Ted asks: > >Now I have a related question. Many trains, from CS-8 to FW-8 to CG-2, had > >for "perishables." I assume these are either refridgated or (most likely) > >ice-reefers. Would these reefers be like the 40' wood or steel side ones? > >What was the typical car(s) used to carry perishables in the 1950's and > >1960's? > > For precise information, see Tony Thompson's PFE book and the ATSFHS Reefer > book (Henrickson et al.). As has been noted, in the 1950's it woudl be ice > reefers...in ice or ventilator service. In the former, hatches were down > to keep the load cool, in the later hatches were open to keep the produce > ventilated. Hatches were closed on empties. The subject of car mixes has > come up extensively on the Steam Era Freight Car list, and its is clear > that PFE and SFRD routed their reefers preferentially over ERIE rather than > PRR. Thus while PFE had the most reefers, SFRD the second and FGE was > third, the mix is different on the PRR. Probably closer to 50% or more FGE > is appropriate (as noted a mix of wood and steel cars...the new IM cars are > POST WWII) with some PFE and a few SFRD cars with loads. More PFE and SFRD > cars were routed home over the PRR, so the ratio of these in westbounds can > be higher. Through in some ART, URTX (General American) and you've got a > fleet. As Greg Malkov noted here back in Novemeber '02, cargos were > regional, and so were reefer lines, so some cargoes nearly always rode in > one line's reefers. > > As I have noted before, the approximate ratio for FGEX to BREX to WFEX is 6:3:1 > > >For trains like CG-2 and FW-8 that carried allot livestock as well. What > >were the typical livestock cars used in the 1950's and 1960's? I know that > >the Pennsy had K-7's and K-9's, but what types of likestock cars showed up > >on the PRR rails from other railroads? > > As noted, a mix of PRR and foreign cars. In 1950, the mix of owners was: > > ATSF - 7461 > UP - 4386 > CB&Q - 3753 > MILW - 3690 > CP - 3346 > SP/T&NO - 3040 > CN - 3037 > PRR - 2315 > GN - 2045 > NP - 1715 > NYC - 1675 > RI - 1207 > B&O - 1192 > IC - 1100 > > Obviously, again you would expect the ratio of PRR cars to be higher, > around 50% or maybe even more (SWAG...we need WHEEL REPORTS!!). I have > seen photos of cars from ATSF, UP, MOPAC, FRISCO... on the PRR so it can > vary widely. > > >Can these perishable and livestock trains be easily modelled? > > You can string together a great perishable express in HO now...much nicer > than solid trains of one tyupe of car that I see go roundy round at modular > shows! > > Models of appropriate reefers in HO: > PFE - In 1945, 90% of the fleet was wood sided, but the mid '50s, it might > be 50% > R-40-10 - IM (steel) > R-40-23 - IM (steel) > R-30-18 - Terry Wegman (wood) > R-30-12 - Red Caboose (wood) > R-30-12-9 (or R-30-9) - Red Caboose (wood) > R-30/40-2/4 - Tichy (wood) > SFRD - Rebuilt ARA steel cars - IM > USRA cars - Westerfield > Sunshine has some SFRD cars as well > FGE - Sunshine models (wood, see archives) > IM (wood) > BREX - Sunshine models (wood, see archives) > Accurail > General American reefer - Branchline > Additional Ice Reefers from Sunshine (URTX, ART...), F&C (CN, CP...). > Westerfield's stuff is mostly too early. > > As noted for stock cars, the PRR cars can cause you trouble before roughly > 1960...after 1960 and you have the K9, K11 cars. Here are some other cars > for the foreign cars (note I have not checked the end dates for these > classes). > > ATSF - SK-02 (Westerfield) > SK-03 (Westerfield) > UP - S-40-4 (Westerfield) > S-40-6 (Westerfield) > S-40-12 (Marklin/Trix - coming) > CB&Q - CB&Q 36' SM-18 (Sunshine 54.5) > FW&D 36' SM-18 (Sunshine 54.6) > MILW - 105007 series (Sunshine 54.1) > 110150 series (Sunshine 54.2) > SP/T&NO-S-40-4 (Westerfield) > S-40-5 (Westerfield) > S-40-8,9,10 (Westerfield) > PRR - K7a - Train Miniatures > K9 - Bowser > K11 - Bowser > GN - Accurail > NP - Central Valley > 40 foot NP 83750-83999 (Aaron Gjermundson) > NYC - AHM > > Some other cars of interest are: > P2K Mather stock car > MP/IGN/NOT&M, 54000 series (Sunshine 54.3), 53850 series (Sunshine 54.4) > SLSF 40' stock car 47200 series (Sunshine 54.7) > Wabash (F&C - coming) > Rutland (F&C) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:23:14 +0000 Bruce Smith put together an excelent list of available foreign road stock cars kits in HO. Here's a few more: UP - S-40-10 (Globe, if you can find them with good sides) S-40-12 (Athearn - stand-in if you can live with the mirror-image roof or can't afford the Marklin/Trix cars) MILW - 110150 series (Mantua (ex-Lindberg) "Heavies" stockcar for a surprisingly good stand-in) As for N scale, it gets downright grim - a quick look at N scale stock cars turns up one nice car (unfortunately of a limited prototype), and a bunch of stuff that looks like they've been knocked off from HO scale models, some already of dubious origin. Micro-Trains: NYC 28000-28499 (Lot 757-S) convertible stock cars rebuilt from USRA SS box cars in 1947. Model Power: The 40 ft car matches UP Class S-40-12. The roof's diagonal panels are oriented in the correct direction (unlike the Athearn HO car) but are rather crude. The 50 ft car's prototype might be a shortened version of SP Class S-70-1, 70 ft cars built in 1964. Bachmann: A copy of their HO scale model, which in turn was copied from the Athearn model. The car generally matches UP Class S-40-12 but is too tall. MDC: Same as their HO stock car, which sort of matches a Clinchfield or Colorado Midland prototype. Life-Like: A direct knock-off of the old Varney HO scale stock car. Crude and matches no known prototype. (Sorry, Jerry!) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:27:48 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Don't forget the door - also wrong. The door slats are vertical, on the K8 they are horizontal. An idea which occurred to me just last night and I haven't been able to try yet, is to use the Central Valley wood fence to make a better door. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= b.hom@att.net wrote: > Bruce Smith wrote: > PRR - K7a - Train Miniatures > > It's a closer match to Class K8. Remember, the Class K7/K7A kept the > alternating diagonal pattern of the Class X23 boxcar: > [\|/|D|\|/] > > Class K8 was a Pratt truss car, which is what the Train Miniature car is: > [\|\|D|/|/] > > It's nothing better than a stand-in - the slat pattern, roof, and underframe > are incorrect, but it's better than nothing at this point. > > Best regards, > Ben ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:33:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 03:23 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > As for N scale, it gets downright grim... > > (Sorry, Jerry!) You said it! And my best hope is probably Bowser, but they'd likely shrink down the K9 and/or K11, both of which are too late for me! Here's the blocking info for the one solid stock train I need to model. Note that the blocking reflects "as of" passing through Harrisburg (Enola). FW-8 - Man o' War -- Chicago to Harsimus Cove Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service" * Block 1: Livestock only, Altoona and beyond, to Enola and Harrisburg, exclusive; Scranton, Wilkes-Barre proper, Wilkes-Barre--D&H, DL&W, CRP and for on and via Shamokin Branch. * Block 2: Livestock only, Harrisburg proper, Reading Co., at Harrisburg, Middletown, Royalton, Elizabethtown, lebanon; also points on Susquehanna Division, including Millersburg and Lykens. * Block 3: Livestock only for Trenton, N.J., and for all Philadelphia Division points except Lancaster, Pa., and as provided for Block 2; also for all Maryland and Delmarva Division points including Octoraro Branch points to Oxford, Pa., inclusive, and for all points on Atlantic Division. * Block 4: Livestock only, Lancaster, Pa. * Block 5: Livestock only, Philadelphia Terminal Division and points so routing, excepting Octoraro Branch points and Atlantic Division points as provided for in Block 3. * Block 6: Livestock only, New York Division local points, Trenton, exclusive to Rayway, exclusive, including Freehold and Hightstown, N.J. * Block 7: Livestock for Waverly-Newark District, including Rahway and Perth Amboy, N.J. * Block 8: Livestock for North Bergen, N.J., via NYS&W RR Marion. * Block 9: Livestock only, Harsimus Cove (hogs to be blocked), including stock for points on the NYNH&H RR and LI RR, DL&W RR via Kearny Jct., Erie RR via Marion, Hoboken Mfg. RR via Jersey City, NYC RR via 68th St., New York, and live poultry for Live Poultry Terminal, Long Island City. As you can see, I'll need a few stock cars just for this train...then there are a few blocks of stock cars in other trains. I'll be patient on filling out this train. There are lots of reefers coming out over the next few months that I'll be needing. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:50:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Mea Culpa! I can only argue for understanding on the Train Miniatures, stock car issue...It was a LONG morning here. TM = K8 (close) Really, We need accurate K7a and K8 models (perhpas more than we need a GP hopper) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:51:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LCL-2 Consist Report From: Jerry Britton Earlier today, buried in the reefer thread (which transgressed into stock cars), we discussed the consists of early TOFC trains. As I stated the first TOFC trailers ran in the LCL symbol trains, a few months before the dedicated TT symbol trains were created. Here's the blocking info for LCL-2, a train that I will be modeling, as it passes through Harrisburg (Enola): LCL-2 -- Chicago to Harsimus Cove Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": * Block 1: Jersey City trailers (from Chicago, East St. Louis and Pittsburgh). * Block 2: Newark trailers (from Chicago, East St. Louis and Pittsburgh). * Block 3: Philadelphia trailers (from Chicago, East St. Louis and Pittsburgh). * Block 4: Philadelphia (other than trailers). * Block 5: Waverly-Newark (other than trailers), including LCL Merchandise and Forwarder Cars for on and via NYNH&H RR and LI RR. * Block 6: Harsimus Cove (other than trailers). * Block 7: Harrisburg, Pa., proper. In HO, the Bowser F30 should be bashable into an F30d. Don't know of any commercially available trailers that are "just right" for PRR. In N, the MicroTrains flat lettered for the PRR might be a starting point. Lee English (Bowser) has no interest in downsizing their F30 as he says it would be too thin and fragile. I am hoping Allen Curtis will pick this up. He does awesome spine cars and other intermodal stuff and is starting to get into earlier stuff. Just today he announced Flexi-Vans (1958 vintage). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL-2 Consist Report Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:09:21 -0400 Jerry wrote: >"Don't know of any commercially available trailers that >are "just right" for PRR." AFAIK, If I recall right, because I bought one. ECW released HO resin kits of PRR Trailers with either the early version 'corrogated side' and late version 'panel side'. I haven't built mine yet but i believe they are correct. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:56:21 -0400 Great summary, Bruce! Just a footnote that these FGEX-BREX-WFEX cars were pooled so that mix would be pretty sound statistically=2E I am struck by t= he absence of C&NW reefers and stockcars in your listing=2E They are very we= ll represented in photo and video evidencej=2E Bob Zoeller Original Message: ----------------- From: Bruce F=2E Smith smithbf@mail=2Eauburn=2Eedu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:51:15 -0500 As I have noted before, the approximate ratio for FGEX to BREX to WFEX is 6:3:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL-2 Consist Report Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:12:37 -0400 Original Message: ----------------- From: Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr=2Ecom "Don't know of=20 any commercially available trailers that are "just right" for PRR=2E" I am away from home,so can't get all the details,but Sheepscot has a plaster 32 footer and Resin Unlimited has a very nice resin(!)30 foot corrugated side for the era=2E I have been waiting for the Ontrak 32 foo= t Fruehauf to see if they could work for an actual PRR trailer=2E There is another exact kit with side door available from someone--can't remember who-- which runs about $25---a little steep for a fleet=2E Bob Zoeller -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry S." Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:39:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Engineer's Time Books. Dave, The 1945 ct1000c shows New Castle as 'NK'. Could that be it? -- Jerry Shickler ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] 2004 Horseshoe Curve? List, Heard something today about a big event coming up in 2004 celebrating the 150th year of the Curve. Suppose to involve vintage Diesels and Steam. Anyone know whats going on? Sounds intriguing. Also, being I have your attenton. Any C&O fans here? Need help in the colors of an as delvered GP30. Yellow ends or Blue ends? Black or Blue Tank and Trucks? Spelled out name or intials? Black or Blue Pilots? Email me off list if you have answers this one.....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:06:02 +0000 List: I would like to thank all who contributed to this question that I posed earlier today. I did not know many of the facts shared; these trains were pretty colorful and in the case of stock cars, rather smelly. At any rate, this will help me out in getting a handle on the nature of perishable and stock trains of the PRR! Ted P.S.: It sounds like all of us need to "stock up" heavily on these cars for our layouts! _________________________________________________________________ Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:30:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL-2 Consist Report From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 05:12 PM, bobspf@wi.rr.com wrote: > I am away from home,so can't get all the details,but Sheepscot has a > plaster 32 footer and Resin Unlimited has a very nice resin(!)30 foot > corrugated side for the era. I have been waiting for the Ontrak 32 > foot > Fruehauf to see if they could work for an actual PRR trailer. There is > another exact kit with side door available from someone--can't remember > who-- which runs about $25---a little steep for a fleet. Bob: Please double check and fill in the blanks. Assume you are talking HO, and that's fine. The 32' Fruehauf should be an exact match. Let us know! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:35:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 2004 Horseshoe Curve? From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 06:33 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Heard something today about a big event coming up in 2004 > celebrating the 150th year of the Curve. Suppose to involve vintage > Diesels and Steam. Anyone know whats going on? Sounds intriguing. A representative of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum posted a prelim plan for this about a month ago. It is a long celebration, kicking off this fall, but highlighted next June-July. They are inviting (paraphrased) all vintage operating steam and diesel to Altoona to share in the celebration for the July 4th weekend. Unfortunately, I'll be on vacation (elsewhere) that week! It would be cool if they could pull it off. Given that they announced this publicly, one must make the assumption that the museum already got permission from NS to have all sorts of other locos running on their lines. I'm shocked that NS agreed to this! (But certainly not against it myself.) I wonder, however, how many vintage operators will actually participate. The insurance coverage would be huge. The costs of getting to Altoona will be substantial. And what about the potential for breaking down on the trip and being stranded? My gut feel is the participation will be light, but I am hopeful and supportive. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:33:43 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's > You would have seen the K7s and K8s on the > Truc-Trains during the early months of this service Guys: While I am not referring to the 1954 timeframe specifically, I would like to point out that loaded livestock cars ran on either the front or rear of PRR, PC and CR TT (and TV) symbol trains right up to the end of livestock service in the mid '90s on Conrail. They also ran East on Mail 8 out of Chicago for South Kearny (Several customers along the P&H Branch) and TT-2 to Phila (Cross Bros). JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:58:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's --- Ted Andrews wrote: > ... these trains were > pretty colorful and in the case of stock cars, rather smelly. In Nebraska, they say it's the smell of money. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] 2004 Horseshoe Curve? List, Heard something today about a big event coming up in 2004 celebrating the 150th year of the Curve. Suppose to involve vintage Diesels and Steam. Anyone know whats going on? Sounds intriguing. Also, being I have your attenton. Any C&O fans here? Need help in the colors of an as delvered GP30. Yellow ends or Blue ends? Black or Blue Tank and Trucks? Spelled out name or intials? Black or Blue Pilots? Email me off list if you have answers this one.....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:33:45 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Witcofsky" > While I am not referring to the 1954 timeframe specifically, I would > like to point out that loaded livestock cars ran on either the front or > rear of PRR, PC and CR TT (and TV) symbol trains right up to the end of > livestock service in the mid '90s on Conrail. > > They also ran East on Mail 8 out of Chicago for South Kearny (Several > customers along the P&H Branch) and TT-2 to Phila (Cross Bros). One of the neat things in life is learning something new after all these years. This is very interesting. However, I can say I have literally hours and hours of video of Conrail mainline in Indiana from 1992-1996 and never saw a livestock car. One qualifier: though I saw hundreds of TV and Mail trains in that time, I never got there for the predawn or so WB rush nor saw the entire sundown EB rush. So what you say may be true and I missed something. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:47:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C378A5.FBFE4D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote: One qualifier: though I saw hundreds of TV and Mail > trains in that time, I never got there for the predawn or so WB rush = nor saw > the entire sundown EB rush. So what you say may be true and I missed > something. I should point out that, though I may have missed Mail 8 as referenced = in the original post, I frequently caught Mail 9, but then I realize the = stock car empties could have come West in any train and may have passed at = night. Or loaded cars may have come through the St. Louis gateway and joined = Mail 8 at Conway. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C378A5.FBFE4D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I=20 wrote:
One qualifier: though I saw hundreds of TV and = Mail
>=20 trains in that time, I never got there for the predawn or so WB rush=20 nor
saw
> the entire sundown EB rush. So what you = say may=20 be true and I missed
> something.

I should point out that, = though I=20 may have missed Mail 8 as referenced in
the original post, I = frequently=20 caught Mail 9, but then I realize the stock
car empties could have = come West=20 in any train and may have passed at night.
Or loaded cars may = have come=20 through the St. Louis gateway and joined Mail
8 at Conway.

Bob = Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C378A5.FBFE4D70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] TLC Publishing "PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:35:31 -0400 Received a letter today from TLC Publishing announcing that the subject book is at the printers and will deliver to the publisher on or about November 5th. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] "PX" Train question Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:43:03 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0399_01C378AD.AE0D7A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageAl: Thanks for your efforts in looking up these train symbols. I have = possession of 1965 train sheets from Warsaw tower. In particular, I am = looking at the July 1965 sheets. Outside of the passenger and local (FW) = trains, here is the following list of eastbound trains: TT-8 CB-2 TT-2 GRE-2 FW-8 CG-2 AC-2 CS-8 Here are the following westbound through freight trains: CB-1 LCL-1-7 AC-1 WC-9 WC-5 (often in 2 sections) WC-1 TT-1 >From what I can gather, CG-2 was historically on the Panhandle. As of = 1965, it was on the Fort Wayne. FW-8, CS-8 and GRE-2 are trains here = trains historically assigned to the Fort Wayne. However, the "AC" and = "CB" trains are a big question mark. In the ETT's in 1965, only CB-1 and = CB-1 are listed; the "AC" trains are not. On interesting thing is the = ETT shows a NF-6 train in 1965. However, I am yet to find this train = symbol used by the Warsaw Tower operators. I do not know if the absence = of NF-6 has anything to do with the AC trains. Another interesting feature is the CB-2 would occasionally be merged = with TT-8. Given the discussion on the list today, it may indicate that = CB-2 was perhaps a livestock/perishable train.=20 The 3 "WC" trains, from what I have read, are "West Coast Clippers." = These trains essentially provided connection with western railroads in = Chicago. WC-9 and WC-5 typically went through Warsaw in the mid-morning = while WC-1 came through around mid-evening. One interesting feature was = the WC-5 typically ran in 2 sections, usually several hours apart. Please feel free in asking any more questions. I will try my best to = clarify things. Thank you very much for any information/insight that you = can provide. Ted P.S.: What would you think does "-7" in "LCL-1-7" mean? =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Buchan=20 To: 'Ted Andrews'=20 Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:32 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] "PX" Train question Ted, I said I'd get back to you. I'm having difficulties finding anything on AC-2. and AC-4 other than = what's in the ETT. I can't find anything on CB-1. What's the time period you're talking about?=20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_0399_01C378AD.AE0D7A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Al:

Thanks for your efforts in looking up these train symbols. I have=20 possession of 1965 train sheets from Warsaw tower. In particular, I = am=20 looking at the July 1965 sheets. Outside of the passenger and local (FW) = trains, here is the following list of eastbound = trains:

TT-8

CB-2

TT-2

GRE-2

FW-8

CG-2

AC-2

CS-8

Here are the following westbound through freight trains:

CB-1

LCL-1-7

AC-1

WC-9

WC-5 (often in 2 sections)

WC-1

TT-1

From what I can gather, CG-2 was historically on the Panhandle. As = of 1965,=20 it was on the Fort Wayne. FW-8, CS-8 and GRE-2 are trains here = trains=20 historically assigned to the Fort Wayne. However, the "AC" and "CB" = trains=20 are a big question mark. In the ETT's in 1965, only CB-1 = and CB-1=20 are listed; the "AC" trains are not. On interesting thing is the ETT = shows a=20 NF-6 train in 1965. However, I am yet to find this train symbol used by = the=20 Warsaw Tower operators. I do not know if the absence of NF-6 has = anything=20 to do with the AC trains.

Another interesting feature is the CB-2 would occasionally=20 be merged with TT-8. Given the discussion on the list=20 today, it may indicate that CB-2 was perhaps a livestock/perishable = train.

The 3 "WC" trains, from what I have read, are "West Coast = Clippers." These=20 trains essentially provided connection with western railroads in = Chicago. WC-9=20 and WC-5 typically went through Warsaw in the mid-morning while WC-1 = came=20 through around mid-evening. One interesting feature was the WC-5 = typically ran=20 in 2 sections, usually several hours apart.

Please feel free in asking any more questions. I will try my best = to=20 clarify things. Thank you very much for any information/insight that you = can=20 provide.

Ted

P.S.: What would you think does "-7" in "LCL-1-7"=20 mean?

----- Original Message -----

From: Al Buchan

To: 'Ted Andrews'

Sent: Thursday, September 11, = 2003 8:32=20 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] "PX" Train=20 question

Ted,

I said I'd get = back to=20 you.

I'm having = difficulties=20 finding anything on AC-2. and AC-4 other than what's in the ETT. I = can't find=20 anything on CB-1.

What's the time=20 period you're talking about?

Al =

------=_NextPart_000_0399_01C378AD.AE0D7A20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR Reefers Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:36:01 +0000 Is it my imagination or does anyone else note that this topic elicits the greatest response of any topic every time it is brought up? Wonder why? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:51:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Talk: X23 MOW cars From: beth capl caples Thanks for all of your responses. All help is as always greatly appreciated. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:28:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 2004 Horseshoe Curve? --part1_19c.19d39e64.2c92977b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys, Like Jerry I received the announcement from Harry Webber (a lurker on this list) and it sounds like quite the fan fair. I forwarded the info to Doyle McCormack and ask him to bring his two big Northerns and the PA might just be restored in NKP by then. We shall see how he reacts. I have been ask to do some presentation models for the event, my reply was that I would be honored. Let's see how it shapes up because if I know Harry he will make us all proud. Greg Martin --part1_19c.19d39e64.2c92977b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys,

Like Jerry I received the announcement from Harry Webber (a lurker on this l= ist) and it sounds like quite the fan fair. I forwarded the info to Doyle Mc= Cormack and ask him to bring his two big Northerns and the PA might just be=20= restored in NKP by then. We shall see how he reacts.

I have been ask to do some presentation models for the event, my reply was t= hat I would be honored.

Let's see how it shapes up because if I know Harry he will make us all proud= .

Greg Martin --part1_19c.19d39e64.2c92977b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Reefers Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:44:01 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3793C.4E34D5F0 Content-Type: text/plain No, it is not your imagination. Those reefers must get your blood boiling. Most every time I ask a question on gons or flats I get no response. I know gons are boring, but I had no idea HOW boring! And for stock cars to get more response is kinda humiliating. Am I ever on the fringe! I'd better switch to boxcars or something for my next project. Elden -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:36 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Reefers Is it my imagination or does anyone else note that this topic elicits the greatest response of any topic every time it is brought up? Wonder why? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3793C.4E34D5F0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Reefers

No, it is not your imagination. Those reefers = must get your blood boiling. Most every time I ask a question on = gons or flats I get no response. I know gons are boring, but I = had no idea HOW boring! And for stock cars to get more response = is kinda humiliating. Am I ever on the fringe! I'd better = switch to boxcars or something for my next project.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:36 PM
To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Reefers

Is it my imagination or does anyone else note that = this topic elicits the
greatest response of any topic every time it is = brought up? Wonder why?

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3793C.4E34D5F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:58:13 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3793E.49EABE40 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; Could you answer a couple questions? For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east (and I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks that only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California with fruit and such? The specific question would be, did they ever go to out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of agricultural producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just have their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading? In an area like Pittsburgh, where would those have been? I am aware of crops being produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to market. Ditto for local markets like people that raised but did not butcher pork, etc. And when did the small packing and distribution industry for meat die out at the local level? There are numerous instances of Swift and Armour having little local processing plants that received meat in reefers, stored it and then cut it up at that facility for distribution to local butchers and such. I can think of several surviving buildings that served this purpose. When did this end? Thanks for any insights, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Joe Witcofsky [mailto:wojosa31@optonline.net] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:34 PM To: 'Jerry Britton'; b.hom@att.net Cc: '"Andrew S. Miller" ; Ted Andrews'; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's > You would have seen the K7s and K8s on the > Truc-Trains during the early months of this service Guys: While I am not referring to the 1954 timeframe specifically, I would like to point out that loaded livestock cars ran on either the front or rear of PRR, PC and CR TT (and TV) symbol trains right up to the end of livestock service in the mid '90s on Conrail. They also ran East on Mail 8 out of Chicago for South Kearny (Several customers along the P&H Branch) and TT-2 to Phila (Cross Bros). JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3793E.49EABE40 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and = 1960's

Hi all;
Could you answer a couple questions?
For produce reefers and stock cars with originations = in the east (and I know there were some significant agricultural areas = in the east outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big = blocks that only traveled between major facilities (for both loading = and unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be = sent out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California = with fruit and such? The specific question would be, did they = ever go to out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of = agricultural producers, like apple growers, or did those small = producers just have their stuff trucked to large terminals for = loading? In an area like Pittsburgh, where would those have = been? I am aware of crops being produced in the area south of Pgh = (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no evidence of the means by which they = transported their crops to market. Ditto for local markets like = people that raised but did not butcher pork, etc.

And when did the small packing and distribution = industry for meat die out at the local level? There are numerous = instances of Swift and Armour having little local processing plants = that received meat in reefers, stored it and then cut it up at that = facility for distribution to local butchers and such. I can think = of several surviving buildings that served this purpose. When did = this end?

Thanks for any insights,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Witcofsky [mailto:wojosa31@optonline.net= ]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:34 PM
To: 'Jerry Britton'; b.hom@att.net
Cc: '"Andrew S. Miller" = <asmiller@mitre.org>; Ted Andrews'; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the = 1950's and 1960's

> You would have seen the K7s and K8s on = the
> Truc-Trains during the early months of this = service

Guys:

While I am not referring to the 1954 timeframe = specifically, I would
like to point out that loaded livestock cars ran on = either the front or
rear of PRR, PC and CR TT (and TV) symbol trains = right up to the end of
livestock service in the mid '90s on Conrail.

They also ran East on Mail 8 out of Chicago for South = Kearny (Several
customers along the P&H Branch) and TT-2 to = Phila (Cross Bros).

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3793E.49EABE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:12:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 From: Jerry Britton On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east (and=20= > I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east=20 > outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks that=20= > only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and=20 > unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent=20= > out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California with=20= > fruit and such?=A0 The specific question would be, did they ever go to=20= > out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of agricultural=20= > producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just have=20= > their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?=A0 In an area like=20= > Pittsburgh, where would those have been?=A0 I am aware of crops being=20= > produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no=20 > evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to=20 > market.=A0 Ditto for local markets like people that raised but did not=20= > butcher pork, etc. A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing through Harrisburg=20= originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as interchange traffic from=20= roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of Baltimore for imported=20= fruit, etc. The blocking information is available in the Schedule of Arranged=20 Freight Service, several editions of which are available online. Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large produce terminal.=20= My own modeling will include a train of which half goes to that=20 terminal, as follows: PG-5 Enola to Pittsburgh Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": * Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. * Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip District Classification,"=20 except as provided for in Block 1, to include traffic for Pgh. Penn=20 St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl. Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly one... CIN-2 - The Captivator Cincinnati to Enola Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": * Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond and=20 shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and Newark, N.J., which have=20= been fed and rested at Columbus. * Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond. NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber and poles for Enola and beyond to=20= be placed within first 20 cars of Enola block. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:17:38 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37941.0064FF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry; Thanks for that info. There was a great article on the Pgh = Produce Terminal in one of the mags. I used to go down to the Strip back in = those days and walk around all of the "vendor areas". Most of that produce = was stuff coming in from Fla. and out west, for distribution to local = buyers. It was a big operation. The stuff I am wondering about is the locals who would have produced = stuff that would have ended up on reefers or stock cars, and how that = transpired. I assume that there were little loading facilities located here and = there to deal with this issue. And I can find no evidence of a loading facility = in the Pgh area. Interesting. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:13 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: 'Joe Witcofsky'; b.hom@att.net; '"Andrew S. Miller" ; Ted Andrews'; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east (and = > I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east=20 > outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks that = > only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and=20 > unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent=20 > out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California with = > fruit and such?=A0 The specific question would be, did they ever go = to=20 > out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of = agricultural=20 > producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just have = > their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?=A0 In an area = like=20 > Pittsburgh, where would those have been?=A0 I am aware of crops being = > produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no=20 > evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to=20 > market.=A0 Ditto for local markets like people that raised but did = not=20 > butcher pork, etc. A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing through Harrisburg = originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as interchange traffic from = roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of Baltimore for imported=20 fruit, etc. The blocking information is available in the Schedule of Arranged=20 Freight Service, several editions of which are available online. Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large produce terminal.=20 My own modeling will include a train of which half goes to that=20 terminal, as follows: PG-5 Enola to Pittsburgh Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": * Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. * Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip District Classification,"=20 except as provided for in Block 1, to include traffic for Pgh. Penn=20 St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl. Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly one... CIN-2 - The Captivator Cincinnati to Enola Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": * Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond and=20 shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and Newark, N.J., which have = been fed and rested at Columbus. * Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond. NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber and poles for Enola and beyond to = be placed within first 20 cars of Enola block. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37941.0064FF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and = 1 960's

Jerry; Thanks for that info. There was a great = article on the Pgh Produce Terminal in one of the mags. I used to = go down to the Strip back in those days and walk around all of the = "vendor areas". Most of that produce was stuff coming = in from Fla. and out west, for distribution to local buyers. It was a = big operation.

The stuff I am wondering about is the locals = who would have produced stuff that would have ended up on reefers or = stock cars, and how that transpired. I assume that there were = little loading facilities located here and there to deal with this = issue. And I can find no evidence of a loading facility in the = Pgh area. Interesting.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] =
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:13 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD
Cc: 'Joe Witcofsky'; b.hom@att.net; '"Andrew S. = Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>; Ted Andrews'; = prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR = Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's

On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, = ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

> For produce reefers and stock cars with = originations in the east (and
> I know there were some significant agricultural = areas in the east
> outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both = ends in big blocks that
> only traveled between major facilities (for = both loading and
> unloading), or did they get broken up into = smaller blocks to be sent
> out to small facilities for loading, like they = did in California with
> fruit and such?=A0 The specific question would = be, did they ever go to
> out of the way places to serve little smaller = clusters of agricultural
> producers, like apple growers, or did those = small producers just have
> their stuff trucked to large terminals for = loading?=A0 In an area like
> Pittsburgh, where would those have been?=A0 I = am aware of crops being
> produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. = Va.) but can find no
> evidence of the means by which they transported = their crops to
> market.=A0 Ditto for local markets like people = that raised but did not
> butcher pork, etc.

A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing = through Harrisburg
originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as = interchange traffic from
roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of = Baltimore for imported
fruit, etc.

The blocking information is available in the Schedule = of Arranged
Freight Service, several editions of which are = available online.

Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large = produce terminal.
My own modeling will include a train of which half = goes to that
terminal, as follows:

PG-5
Enola to Pittsburgh
Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged = Freight Service":

* Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce = Terminal.
* Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip = District Classification,"
except as provided for in Block 1, to include = traffic for Pgh. Penn
St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl.

Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly = one...

CIN-2 - The Captivator
Cincinnati to Enola
Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged = Freight Service":

* Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg and = beyond and
shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and = Newark, N.J., which have
been fed and rested at Columbus.
* Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg and = beyond.
NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber and poles = for Enola and beyond to
be placed within first 20 cars of Enola = block.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01C37941.0064FF80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:33:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" OK. Since we're discussing stock cars, I have a question. Are there any Pittsburghers who remember Herr's Island when there was a stock yard there? How far downwind did one have to get to get away from th= e smell? Could you smell the yard up on Troy Hill? I don't ever remember a stock yard stench in downtown Pittsburgh, but I suspect that is because the prevailing wind is upriver and the smell would have been carried up the Allegheny. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: ELDEN GATWOOD >Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's >Date: Fri, 12 Sep, 2003, 10:12 > > On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > >> For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east (and >> I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east >> outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks that >> only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and >> unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent >> out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California with >> fruit and such?=A0 The specific question would be, did they ever go to >> out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of agricultural >> producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just have >> their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?=A0 In an area like >> Pittsburgh, where would those have been?=A0 I am aware of crops being >> produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no >> evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to >> market.=A0 Ditto for local markets like people that raised but did not >> butcher pork, etc. > > A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing through Harrisburg > originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as interchange traffic from > roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of Baltimore for imported > fruit, etc. > > The blocking information is available in the Schedule of Arranged > Freight Service, several editions of which are available online. > > Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large produce terminal. > My own modeling will include a train of which half goes to that > terminal, as follows: > > PG-5 > Enola to Pittsburgh > Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": > > * Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. > * Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip District Classification," > except as provided for in Block 1, to include traffic for Pgh. Penn > St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl. > > > Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly one... > > CIN-2 - The Captivator > Cincinnati to Enola > Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": > > * Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond and > shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and Newark, N.J., which have > been fed and rested at Columbus. > * Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond. > NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber and poles for Enola and beyond to > be placed within first 20 cars of Enola block. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car paint color Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:29:17 -0400 Hi all, Here at the Whippany Railroad Museum, we're almost ready to give N5c 477823 a coat of paint. It's being painted in the 1954 shadow keystone scheme. Does anyone have a good paint match in a 1:1 scale paint? Is the freight car color drift card that the PRRT&HS put out appropriate for a cabin in 1954? (I lent out my drift card so I can't check the date on it!) Many model vendors (Bowser and K-Line to name 2) paint up their shadow keystone N5c's in a very red color, closer to caboose red than to what I view as freight car color. Are their colors just wrong? Other restored N5c's also seem much redder than the drift card. Based on this a few folks at the museum think that the drift card is too brown to use as a color match. Help! I was also just told that painting is scheduled for next week so there's a bit of a time crunch on this... Thanks for the help! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:16:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_028A_01C37906.1B66EA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960'sI = have very specific memories of reefers on the ex-Camden and Amboy "back = road" freights, as a 2 or 3 year old child who lived right by the tracks = in Prospect Plains, NJ. I specifically remember them, as my mother = pointed out the open ice hatches, giving me the conventional wisdom info = that this meant they were "empty". I assume these were FGEX cars, but = as I was unable to read at the time, this can only be surmise! (I also = have a vivid memory of a loco that I was told was a "diesel", and the = memory is clear enough that it was clearly a VO1000 -- confirmed by = slides of such a loco on this train shown at the May convention). =20 I read somewhere, not sure where, that the reefers in this case took = produce grown in this part of New Jersey, especially potatoes, to = Campbells Soup in Camden. So as of the early 1950s, reefers carried = produce a fairly short distance. I believe this was also done on the = P-RSL, again to Camden. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Joe Witcofsky' ; 'Jerry Britton' ; b.hom@att.net=20 Cc: '"Andrew S. Miller" ; Ted Andrews' ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 7:58 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's Hi all;=20 Could you answer a couple questions?=20 For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east (and = I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east = outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks that = only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and unloading), = or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent out to small = facilities for loading, like they did in California with fruit and such? = The specific question would be, did they ever go to out of the way = places to serve little smaller clusters of agricultural producers, like = apple growers, or did those small producers just have their stuff = trucked to large terminals for loading? In an area like Pittsburgh, = where would those have been? I am aware of crops being produced in the = area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no evidence of the means = by which they transported their crops to market. Ditto for local = markets like people that raised but did not butcher pork, etc. And when did the small packing and distribution industry for meat die = out at the local level? There are numerous instances of Swift and = Armour having little local processing plants that received meat in = reefers, stored it and then cut it up at that facility for distribution = to local butchers and such. I can think of several surviving buildings = that served this purpose. When did this end? Thanks for any insights,=20 Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Joe Witcofsky [mailto:wojosa31@optonline.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:34 PM=20 To: 'Jerry Britton'; b.hom@att.net=20 Cc: '"Andrew S. Miller" ; Ted Andrews'; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's=20 > You would have seen the K7s and K8s on the=20 > Truc-Trains during the early months of this service=20 Guys:=20 While I am not referring to the 1954 timeframe specifically, I would=20 like to point out that loaded livestock cars ran on either the front = or=20 rear of PRR, PC and CR TT (and TV) symbol trains right up to the end = of=20 livestock service in the mid '90s on Conrail.=20 They also ran East on Mail 8 out of Chicago for South Kearny (Several=20 customers along the P&H Branch) and TT-2 to Phila (Cross Bros).=20 JW=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_028A_01C37906.1B66EA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the = 1950's and 1960's

I have very specific memories of reefers on the = ex-Camden and=20 Amboy "back road" freights, as a 2 or 3 year old child who lived right = by the=20 tracks in Prospect Plains, NJ. I specifically remember them, as my = mother=20 pointed out the open ice hatches, giving me the conventional wisdom info = that=20 this meant they were "empty". I assume these were FGEX cars, but = as I was=20 unable to read at the time, this can only be surmise! (I also have = a vivid=20 memory of a loco that I was told was a "diesel", and the memory is clear = enough=20 that it was clearly a VO1000 -- confirmed by slides of such a loco on = this train=20 shown at the May convention).

I read somewhere, not sure where, that the reefers = in this=20 case took produce grown in this part of New Jersey, especially potatoes, = to=20 Campbells Soup in Camden. So as of the early 1950s, reefers = carried=20 produce a fairly short distance. I believe this was also done on = the=20 P-RSL, again to Camden.

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD

To: 'Joe=20 Witcofsky' ; 'Jerry Britton' ; b.hom@att.net

Cc: ; Ted = Andrews'"=20 title=3Dted_andrews@msn.com>'"Andrew S. Miller" = <asmiller@mitre.org>; Ted=20 Andrews' ; prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, September 12, = 2003 7:58=20 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, = Stock, Meat,=20 on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's

Hi all;
Could you answer a = couple=20 questions?
For produce reefers and stock = cars with=20 originations in the east (and I know there were some significant = agricultural=20 areas in the east outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends = in big=20 blocks that only traveled between major facilities (for both loading = and=20 unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent = out to=20 small facilities for loading, like they did in California with fruit = and=20 such? The specific question would be, did they ever go to out of = the way=20 places to serve little smaller clusters of agricultural producers, = like apple=20 growers, or did those small producers just have their stuff trucked to = large=20 terminals for loading? In an area like Pittsburgh, where would = those=20 have been? I am aware of crops being produced in the area south = of Pgh=20 (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no evidence of the means by which they=20 transported their crops to market. Ditto for local markets like = people=20 that raised but did not butcher pork, etc.

And when did the small packing and distribution = industry for=20 meat die out at the local level? There are numerous instances of = Swift=20 and Armour having little local processing plants that received meat in = reefers, stored it and then cut it up at that facility for = distribution to=20 local butchers and such. I can think of several surviving = buildings that=20 served this purpose. When did this end?

Thanks for any insights,
Elden=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe=20 Witcofsky [mailto:wojosa31@optonline.net]= =20
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:34 = PM=20
To: 'Jerry Britton'; b.hom@att.net
Cc: '"Andrew S. Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>; Ted = Andrews';=20 prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers = on PRR=20 Trains in the 1950's and 1960's

> You would have seen the K7s and K8s on = the=20
> Truc-Trains during the early months of this=20 service

Guys:

While I am not referring to the 1954 timeframe = specifically, I=20 would
like to point out that loaded = livestock cars ran=20 on either the front or
rear of PRR, PC and = CR TT (and=20 TV) symbol trains right up to the end of
livestock=20 service in the mid '90s on Conrail.

They also ran East on Mail 8 out of Chicago for = South Kearny=20 (Several
customers along the P&H Branch) = and TT-2=20 to Phila (Cross Bros).

----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_028A_01C37906.1B66EA40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:39:14 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 While I don't have much documentation -- i.e., wheel sheets or whatever they are called -- many a reefer of produce went north from Delmarva over the years. Photos which seem to be from the 40's show mostly wooden FGEs in blocks usually sitting on team tracks, with the occasional RB50 probably for seafood. Primary crops were strawberries, Irish potatoes, sweet potatoes, greens, beans, tomatoes, etc. all of which were very seasonal and shipped from team tracks at stations or dedicated sidings at one of the many produce sheds here. Fresh stuff went north by rail to the big cities by way of Edgemore (Wilmington, DE); some went to local canneries and was then reshipped as canned or later frozen food from Dulany and Birdseye both of whom had huge plants down this way. I don't know when the producers changed to trucks...probably in the 60s. I have one handwritten NYP&N car report from before 1920 for Extra 17 with 39 cars of potatoes ( a major production area for the east coast pre Idaho) for the following locations: 2 Pier 29 1 Wilm, DEL 2 New Haven, Conn 1 Brooklyn 4 Pitcairn 2 Buffalo 1 Pittsburg 10 Chicago (must like spuds!) 4 Detroit 1 Scranton 1 Albany 1 Harvey, ILL 1 Rochester 1 Wilkes-Barre 1 Lansing 1 South Chicago 1 Lakeport, NH 1 New Bedford, MASS 1 Northampton, MASS 1 Pier 4, NY(?) 1 Pittsfield, MASS Happy eating, Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva where we still grow taters ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:32:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0317_01C37908.56E8C320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 = 960'sIt should also be pointed out that eastern Long Island was a major = potato growing area, and the various books on the LIRR in the steam era = have many photos of FGEX reefers being handled in the potato-growing = season. I would be willing to bet that these were headed to Campbells = Soup in Camden as well. The frozen food industry started in southern = New Jersey, and I wonder if some early traffic here came in reefers. Also, the Keystone had an article quite a while ago on tomatoes being = handled to Campbells Soup (my memory is from Ohio) in stock cars. I would guess that Cambells Soup and Camden were major produce = destinations on the PRR. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Jerry Britton'=20 Cc: 'Joe Witcofsky' ; b.hom@att.net ; '"Andrew S. Miller" = ; Ted Andrews' ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:17 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's Jerry; Thanks for that info. There was a great article on the Pgh = Produce Terminal in one of the mags. I used to go down to the Strip = back in those days and walk around all of the "vendor areas". Most of = that produce was stuff coming in from Fla. and out west, for = distribution to local buyers. It was a big operation. The stuff I am wondering about is the locals who would have produced = stuff that would have ended up on reefers or stock cars, and how that = transpired. I assume that there were little loading facilities located = here and there to deal with this issue. And I can find no evidence of a = loading facility in the Pgh area. Interesting. Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:13 AM=20 To: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 Cc: 'Joe Witcofsky'; b.hom@att.net; '"Andrew S. Miller" = ; Ted Andrews'; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's=20 On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:=20 > For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east = (and=20 > I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east=20 > outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks = that=20 > only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and=20 > unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent = > out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California = with=20 > fruit and such? The specific question would be, did they ever go to = > out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of = agricultural=20 > producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just = have=20 > their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading? In an area like = > Pittsburgh, where would those have been? I am aware of crops being=20 > produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no=20 > evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to=20 > market. Ditto for local markets like people that raised but did not = > butcher pork, etc.=20 A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing through = Harrisburg=20 originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as interchange traffic = from=20 roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of Baltimore for imported = fruit, etc.=20 The blocking information is available in the Schedule of Arranged=20 Freight Service, several editions of which are available online.=20 Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large produce terminal. = My own modeling will include a train of which half goes to that=20 terminal, as follows:=20 PG-5=20 Enola to Pittsburgh=20 Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service":=20 * Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce Terminal.=20 * Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip District Classification,"=20 except as provided for in Block 1, to include traffic for Pgh. Penn=20 St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl.=20 Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly one...=20 CIN-2 - The Captivator=20 Cincinnati to Enola=20 Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service":=20 * Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond and=20 shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and Newark, N.J., which = have=20 been fed and rested at Columbus.=20 * Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond.=20 NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber and poles for Enola and beyond = to=20 be placed within first 20 cars of Enola block.=20 -----------------------------------------------------------=20 Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com=20 Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.=20 "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!=20 http://kc.pennsyrr.com=20 "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...=20 http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0317_01C37908.56E8C320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the = 1950's and 1 960's

It should also be pointed out that eastern Long = Island was a=20 major potato growing area, and the various books on the LIRR in the = steam era=20 have many photos of FGEX reefers being handled in the potato-growing=20 season. I would be willing to bet that these were headed to = Campbells Soup=20 in Camden as well. The frozen food industry started in = southern New=20 Jersey, and I wonder if some early traffic here came in = reefers.

Also, the Keystone had an article quite a while ago = on=20 tomatoes being handled to Campbells Soup (my memory is from Ohio) in = stock=20 cars.

I would guess that Cambells Soup and Camden were = major produce=20 destinations on the PRR.

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD

To: 'Jerry Britton'

Cc: 'Joe=20 Witcofsky' ; b.hom@att.net ; ; Ted = Andrews'"=20 title=3Dted_andrews@msn.com>'"Andrew S. Miller" = <asmiller@mitre.org>; Ted=20 Andrews' ; prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, September 12, = 2003 8:17=20 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, = Stock, Meat,=20 on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's

Jerry; Thanks for that info. There was a great = article=20 on the Pgh Produce Terminal in one of the mags. I used to go = down to the=20 Strip back in those days and walk around all of the "vendor = areas". Most=20 of that produce was stuff coming in from Fla. and out west, for = distribution=20 to local buyers. It was a big operation.

The stuff I am wondering about is the locals = who would=20 have produced stuff that would have ended up on reefers or stock cars, = and how=20 that transpired. I assume that there were little loading = facilities=20 located here and there to deal with this issue. And I can find = no=20 evidence of a loading facility in the Pgh area. = Interesting.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry=20 Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:13 = AM=20
To: ELDEN GATWOOD
Cc: = 'Joe=20 Witcofsky'; b.hom@att.net; '"Andrew S. Miller" = <asmiller@mitre.org>; Ted=20 Andrews'; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: = [PRR]=20 Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's =

On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, = ELDEN=20 GATWOOD wrote:

> For produce reefers and stock cars with = originations in=20 the east (and
> I know there were some = significant=20 agricultural areas in the east
> outside = of Fla.),=20 did they all travel at both ends in big blocks that
> only traveled between major facilities (for both loading = and=20
> unloading), or did they get broken up = into=20 smaller blocks to be sent
> out to small = facilities=20 for loading, like they did in California with
>=20 fruit and such? The specific question would be, did they ever go = to=20
> out of the way places to serve little = smaller=20 clusters of agricultural
> producers, = like apple=20 growers, or did those small producers just have
>=20 their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading? In an area = like=20
> Pittsburgh, where would those have = been? I=20 am aware of crops being
> produced in the = area=20 south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no
>=20 evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to=20
> market. Ditto for local markets = like people=20 that raised but did not
> butcher pork, = etc.=20

A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing = through=20 Harrisburg
originated in = Baltimore/Washington...either=20 as interchange traffic from
roads to the = south=20 (Florida) or via the Port of Baltimore for imported
fruit, etc.

The blocking information is available in the = Schedule of=20 Arranged
Freight Service, several editions = of which=20 are available online.

Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large = produce=20 terminal.
My own modeling will include a = train of=20 which half goes to that
terminal, as = follows:=20

PG-5
Enola to = Pittsburgh=20
Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight = Service":

* Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce = Terminal.=20
* Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip = District=20 Classification,"
except as provided for in = Block 1, to=20 include traffic for Pgh. Penn
St., inclusive = to New=20 Kensington, incl.

Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly = one...=20

CIN-2 - The Captivator
Cincinnati to=20 Enola
Source: December 1954 "Schedule of = Arranged=20 Freight Service":

* Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg = and beyond=20 and
shipments of lambs for North Bergen, = N.J., and=20 Newark, N.J., which have
been fed and rested = at=20 Columbus.
* Block 4: Other freight for=20 Enola-Harrisburg and beyond.
NOTE 2: = Open top=20 cars loaded lumber and poles for Enola and beyond to
be placed within first 20 cars of Enola block.

-----------------------------------------------------------=20
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member,=20 PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.=20
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" = mailing=20 list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com=20
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...=20
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com=20

------=_NextPart_000_0317_01C37908.56E8C320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:54:58 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37946.37EE1F90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don, Yes, I do remember. The smell was sometimes evident on the = bridge that crossed the Allegheny at Highland Park, and sometimes around the = Etna area (I think that is where it was, but I could be off a town or two). = I do not remember it during the time I spent in downtown, some of which was = at the south edge of the river. I think you are right about prevailing = winds. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu]=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:33 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's OK. Since we're discussing stock cars, I have a question. =20 Are there any Pittsburghers who remember Herr's Island when there was a stock yard there? How far downwind did one have to get to get away = from the smell? Could you smell the yard up on Troy Hill? I don't ever = remember a stock yard stench in downtown Pittsburgh, but I suspect that is because = the prevailing wind is upriver and the smell would have been carried up the Allegheny. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: ELDEN GATWOOD >Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's >Date: Fri, 12 Sep, 2003, 10:12 > > On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > >> For produce reefers and stock cars with originations in the east = (and >> I know there were some significant agricultural areas in the east >> outside of Fla.), did they all travel at both ends in big blocks = that >> only traveled between major facilities (for both loading and >> unloading), or did they get broken up into smaller blocks to be sent >> out to small facilities for loading, like they did in California = with >> fruit and such?=A0 The specific question would be, did they ever go = to >> out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of = agricultural >> producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just = have >> their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?=A0 In an area = like >> Pittsburgh, where would those have been?=A0 I am aware of crops = being >> produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, W. Va.) but can find no >> evidence of the means by which they transported their crops to >> market.=A0 Ditto for local markets like people that raised but did = not >> butcher pork, etc. > > A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic passing through = Harrisburg > originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as interchange traffic = from > roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of Baltimore for = imported > fruit, etc. > > The blocking information is available in the Schedule of Arranged > Freight Service, several editions of which are available online. > > Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a large produce = terminal. > My own modeling will include a train of which half goes to that > terminal, as follows: > > PG-5 > Enola to Pittsburgh > Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": > > * Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. > * Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh "Strip District Classification," > except as provided for in Block 1, to include traffic for Pgh. Penn > St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl. > > > Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a smelly one... > > CIN-2 - The Captivator > Cincinnati to Enola > Source: December 1954 "Schedule of Arranged Freight Service": > > * Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond and > shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and Newark, N.J., which = have > been fed and rested at Columbus. > * Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg and beyond. > NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber and poles for Enola and beyond = to > be placed within first 20 cars of Enola block. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37946.37EE1F90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and = 1 960's

Don, Yes, I do remember. The smell was = sometimes evident on the bridge that crossed the Allegheny at Highland = Park, and sometimes around the Etna area (I think that is where it was, = but I could be off a town or two). I do not remember it during = the time I spent in downtown, some of which was at the south edge of = the river. I think you are right about prevailing = winds.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu= ]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:33 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR = Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's

OK. Since we're discussing stock cars, I have a = question.

Are there any Pittsburghers who remember Herr's = Island when there was a
stock yard there? How far downwind did one = have to get to get away from the
smell? Could you smell the yard up on Troy = Hill? I don't ever remember a
stock yard stench in downtown Pittsburgh, but I = suspect that is because the
prevailing wind is upriver and the smell would have = been carried up the
Allegheny.

Don Harper
Marine Lab
Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston
Galveston, TX 77551
409/740-4540

----------
>From: Jerry Britton = <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
>To: ELDEN GATWOOD = <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>
>Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR = Trains in the 1950's and 1
960's
>Date: Fri, 12 Sep, 2003, 10:12
>

> On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:58 = AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:
>
>> For produce reefers and stock cars with = originations in the east (and
>> I know there were some significant = agricultural areas in the east
>> outside of Fla.), did they all travel at = both ends in big blocks that
>> only traveled between major facilities (for = both loading and
>> unloading), or did they get broken up into = smaller blocks to be sent
>> out to small facilities for loading, like = they did in California with
>> fruit and such?=A0 The specific question = would be, did they ever go to
>> out of the way places to serve little = smaller clusters of agricultural
>> producers, like apple growers, or did those = small producers just have
>> their stuff trucked to large terminals for = loading?=A0 In an area like
>> Pittsburgh, where would those have been?=A0 = I am aware of crops being
>> produced in the area south of Pgh (SW PA, = W. Va.) but can find no
>> evidence of the means by which they = transported their crops to
>> market.=A0 Ditto for local markets like = people that raised but did not
>> butcher pork, etc.
>
> A lot of the north/west bound reefer traffic = passing through Harrisburg
> originated in Baltimore/Washington...either as = interchange traffic from
> roads to the south (Florida) or via the Port of = Baltimore for imported
> fruit, etc.
>
> The blocking information is available in the = Schedule of Arranged
> Freight Service, several editions of which are = available online.
>
> Since you mentioned Pittsburgh...P-burgh had a = large produce terminal.
> My own modeling will include a train of which = half goes to that
> terminal, as follows:
>
> PG-5
> Enola to Pittsburgh
> Source: December 1954 "Schedule of = Arranged Freight Service":
>
> * Block 1: Perishables for Pittsburgh Produce = Terminal.
> * Block 2: All freight of Pittsburgh = "Strip District Classification,"
> except as provided for in Block 1, to include = traffic for Pgh. Penn
> St., inclusive to New Kensington, incl.
>
>
> Wanna switch back to stock cars? Here's a = smelly one...
>
> CIN-2 - The Captivator
> Cincinnati to Enola
> Source: December 1954 "Schedule of = Arranged Freight Service":
>
> * Block 3: Shipments of HOGS for = Enola-Harrisburg and beyond and
> shipments of lambs for North Bergen, N.J., and = Newark, N.J., which have
> been fed and rested at Columbus.
> * Block 4: Other freight for Enola-Harrisburg = and beyond.
>   NOTE 2: Open top cars loaded lumber = and poles for Enola and beyond to
> be placed within first 20 cars of Enola = block.
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in = N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>      http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model = railroad products...
>      http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C37946.37EE1F90-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:57:05 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37946.83A31300 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks all for the great feedback. This'd make a great research project. Elden -----Original Message----- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37946.83A31300 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and = 1 960's

Thanks all for the great = feedback. This'd make a great research = project.

Elden

-----Original Message-----

------_=_NextPart_001_01C37946.83A31300-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI T1 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:21:14 +0000 According to trains.com the sample engine is at the hobby show here in Chicgao this weekend. I recehecked the pictures on the BLI website and it is a good looking engine. I did notice that they filled the coal bunker right to the top and level with the profile of the tender. I sent them an e mail asking if the level could be lowered to allow covering with something that looks more realistic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:52:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and > It should also be pointed out that eastern Long Island was a major >potato growing area, and the various books on the LIRR in the steam era >have many photos of FGEX reefers being handled in the potato-growing >season. I would be willing to bet that these were headed to Campbells >Soup in Camden as well. The frozen food industry started in southern New >Jersey, and I wonder if some early traffic here came in reefers. Also, >the Keystone had an article quite a while ago on tomatoes being handled >to Campbells Soup (my memory is from Ohio) in stock cars. I would guess >that Cambells Soup and Camden were major produce destinations on the PRR. John, Nice job combining the discussion of reefers and stock cars ! In fact I believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to the Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a discussion of this YEARS ago..need to check the archives. Bottom line on reefer traffic... PRR originating traffic should mostly go out in "PRR" (FGE or BREX or WFEX) reefers. Outbound traffic was often loaded locally, until the early 1960's as the road system in agricultural areas did not support movement to large collecting points. Inbound traffic comes in a WIDE variety of lines, depending on originating location. In most cases, these come to large terminals such as Pittsburgh's for distribution to wholesale markets. It was not easy to get time sensitive cargo to smaller locations (like the local team track) so it was rare. Empty non-PRR reefer (PFE, SFRD...) are either shipped home empty or with priority loads such as magazines or newspapers. So, for me, I look at it as follows for train make up... Inbound loads (outbound empties) - a mix of roads Outbound loads (inbound empties) - blocks of FGE, BREX, WFEX Note that the empties are not time sensitive and can be mixed w/general freight and therefore may not move as blocks, or Al Buchan pointed out back in November 2002, may move in blocks in "TRS" (tank, reefer, stock) symbol trains westbound (at least into the mid 1940's). The closer the empties are to the loading point, the more likely they are to be sorted into "blocks" Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:03:36 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: gons/flats was RE: [PRR] PRR Reefers Elden sez: >No, it is not your imagination. Those reefers must get your blood >boiling. Most every time I ask a question on gons or flats I get no >response. I know gons are boring, but I had no idea HOW boring! And for >stock cars to get more response is kinda humiliating. Am I ever on the >fringe! I'd better switch to boxcars or something for my next project. I feel your pain! But you need to realiz that the national stock car fleet outnumbered flat cars by 2:1 and reefers...there were lots. Of course, with gons, you've got a point!! I've been trying to get the "freight car gurus" who have the databases to give me break downs on other types of cars. Unfortunatley, gons were not seperated from hoppers until into the 1950s. Slowly we are starting to collect the data from places like the ORER that gives us these "fleet numbers" Of course the PRR fleet numbers are already there ! The biggest problem for me is figuring out: a) The foreign to PRR mix, for example for gons b) The "signature" cars for the foreign fleets...(as Ted Culotta is doing for boxcars) What questions do you have about flats? And no, gons aren't boring...I need somewhere around 64 PRR gons for my "fleet" (25 GS, 13 GRA, 8 GR, 5 G22, 4 G27, 2 each of G25, G26, G28, G29 and a G30. And that doesn't count the MOW cars !! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:06:36 -0400 >>By the end of the 50's, I saw many stock trains hauled by A-B-A E7's. > >E7's or F7's? Just checking. Hadn't been aware of E units pulling freight >trains, but that's beyond my era (1954) anyway. Definitely E's (EEEEEE's). That's what made it so remarkable. Guess they had to move pretty fast to keep ahead of the stink. Andrew Harmantas, remembering some really smelly trains along the Middle Division, from down here near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:09:46 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI T1 >According to trains.com the sample engine is at the hobby show here in >Chicgao this weekend. I recehecked the pictures on the BLI website and it is >a good looking engine. I did notice that they filled the coal bunker right >to the top and level with the profile of the tender. I sent them an e mail >asking if the level could be lowered to allow covering with something that >looks more realistic. Please PLEAD, BEG, DEMAND that they paint it DGLE and not GREEN. It seems absurd that we should pay so much for a loco that has the wrong color paint. Having been in contact with the person who is their contact regarding color, I can tell you he thinks its perfect and that SPF's don't know DGLE... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:15:02 -0700 In addition to Long Island and New Jersey, we shouldn't forget the Eastern Shore (what we called it in MD) or to others the DelMarVa area as originating points for produce. It would definitely be interesting to hear exactly what was shipped and where it went. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's > > It should also be pointed out that eastern Long Island was a major > >potato growing area, and the various books on the LIRR in the steam era > >have many photos of FGEX reefers being handled in the potato-growing > >season. I would be willing to bet that these were headed to Campbells > >Soup in Camden as well. The frozen food industry started in southern New > >Jersey, and I wonder if some early traffic here came in reefers. Also, > >the Keystone had an article quite a while ago on tomatoes being handled > >to Campbells Soup (my memory is from Ohio) in stock cars. I would guess > >that Cambells Soup and Camden were major produce destinations on the PRR. > > John, > > Nice job combining the discussion of reefers and stock cars ! In fact I > believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to the > Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a discussion of this > YEARS ago..need to check the archives. > > Bottom line on reefer traffic... > > PRR originating traffic should mostly go out in "PRR" (FGE or BREX or WFEX) > reefers. Outbound traffic was often loaded locally, until the early 1960's > as the road system in agricultural areas did not support movement to large > collecting points. Inbound traffic comes in a WIDE variety of lines, > depending on originating location. In most cases, these come to large > terminals such as Pittsburgh's for distribution to wholesale markets. It > was not easy to get time sensitive cargo to smaller locations (like the > local team track) so it was rare. Empty non-PRR reefer (PFE, SFRD...) are > either shipped home empty or with priority loads such as magazines or > newspapers. > > So, for me, I look at it as follows for train make up... > > Inbound loads (outbound empties) - a mix of roads > Outbound loads (inbound empties) - blocks of FGE, BREX, WFEX > > Note that the empties are not time sensitive and can be mixed w/general > freight and therefore may not move as blocks, or Al Buchan pointed out back > in November 2002, may move in blocks in "TRS" (tank, reefer, stock) symbol > trains westbound (at least into the mid 1940's). The closer the empties > are to the loading point, the more likely they are to be sorted into > "blocks" > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:09:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] E-units on freights From: Frederick Ripley Hi All, The discussion of E's on stock trains reminds me of several shots I have seen of E units on PRR priority freights. In one of Dave Sweetland's books, there is a shot or two of E's on JET-1 (I think also known as the "Yankee Jet"), which he says was common during 1964. There is a neat shot in "Pennsy Power II" of 4 E-8's on a truc-train, which doesn't have a date but looks to be about 1964 or so. So can anyone elaborate as to how common was the usage, from the late '50's through the end of the PRR, of E units on priority freights. I haven't seen any shots after about 1964-65, so presumably as more 2nd generation hoods were delivered the usage lessened and/or stopped. Also, with the recent discussion of symbols, can anyone shed more light on the above-mentioned JET-1? I believe this train came from New England connections, and was delivered to the PRR via the Bel-Del branch?, and went to Chicago. It is listed in a 1960 Pitts. Div. ETT I have, but not from 1964 on. This is a long shot, but I wonder if CB-1 (which Al B. couldn't find anything on) was the continuation/replacement for this train? Thanks for any info, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:22:14 +0000 According to David P. Morgan in at least one article in Trains E units were flat land runners and F's were the grade pullers. That apparently explains the ATSF penchant for F units and except for Altoona to Galitzen (where helpers were used regardless) the PRR penchant for E units. With everybody wanting out of the passenger business and wanting no equipment that could remotely be construed as such there was probably no market for E units to other roads. I would suspect without verifying that the E units were retired pretty close to their fifteen year life cycles and gotten rid of as fast as possible. That is conjecture and subject to the overall condition of locomotives around the time of the merger and the need for anything that could pull. I am on dangerous ground becasue I am unsure of the facts but an E unit only had four traction motors (same as an F) and tractive effort would suffer slightly because of weight distribution to two additional idler axles so it probably couldn't start the same train as an F unit could. WIth the additonal horsepower I suspect it could move a train faster once it got going. Don't know if any were regeared to more freight like ratios like the PA's. I doubt it though. It was merely a case of what do we do with these dinosaurs unitl we can dump them. > Hi All, > > The discussion of E's on stock trains reminds me of several shots I have > seen of E units on PRR priority freights. In one of Dave Sweetland's books, > there is a shot or two of E's on JET-1 (I think also known as the "Yankee > Jet"), which he says was common during 1964. There is a neat shot in > "Pennsy Power II" of 4 E-8's on a truc-train, which doesn't have a date but > looks to be about 1964 or so. > > So can anyone elaborate as to how common was the usage, from the late '50's > through the end of the PRR, of E units on priority freights. I haven't seen > any shots after about 1964-65, so presumably as more 2nd generation hoods > were delivered the usage lessened and/or stopped. > > Also, with the recent discussion of symbols, can anyone shed more light on > the above-mentioned JET-1? I believe this train came from New England > connections, and was delivered to the PRR via the Bel-Del branch?, and went > to Chicago. It is listed in a 1960 Pitts. Div. ETT I have, but not from > 1964 on. This is a long shot, but I wonder if CB-1 (which Al B. couldn't > find anything on) was the continuation/replacement for this train? > > Thanks for any info, > > Fred R. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:28:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/12/03 --part1_166.2575ef42.2c936a30_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/03 1:41:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > The specific question would be, did they ever go = > to > >> out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of = > agricultural > >> producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just = > have > >> their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?= Blocks at or near the source. A good example of this would be the Campbell's tomato train. In the teens or 20's (???) PRR set out blocks of box cars on a siding next to the Low Grade/Port Road in Washington Boro, Lancaster County, PA. Washington Boro allegedly grew some of the best tasting tomatoe's in the country at that time (still do). The "tomato" train was then taken to Camden or Trenton, NJ (wherever Campbell soup was located at that time. If you look hard enough during the winter, you can still see signs of that siding. Additional information can be found in a brochure at the Tomato Barn along Route 999 in Washington Boro, Lancaster County, PA. Bob Martin --part1_166.2575ef42.2c936a30_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/12/0= 3 1:41:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

The specific question would= be, did they ever go =3D
to
>> out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of =3D
agricultural
>> producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers jus= t =3D
have
>> their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?=3D

Blocks at or near the source. A good example of this would be the=20= Campbell's tomato train. In the teens or 20's (???) PRR set out=20= blocks of box cars on a siding next to the Low Grade/Port Road in Washington= Boro, Lancaster County, PA. Washington Boro allegedly grew some of th= e best tasting tomatoe's in the country at that time (still do). The "= tomato" train was then taken to Camden or Trenton, NJ (wherever Campbell sou= p was located at that time. If you look hard enough during the winter,= you can still see signs of that siding. Additional information can be= found in a brochure at the Tomato Barn along Route 999 in Washington Boro,=20= Lancaster County, PA.

Bob Martin --part1_166.2575ef42.2c936a30_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:45:36 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3795E.0DF27CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SWYgeW91ICBkaWRuJ3QgZ2V0IHlvdXIgcGhvdG9zIGR1cmluZyBGZWJydWFyeSAxOTY0LCB5b3Ug bWlzc2VkIHRoZSBlcmEgb2YgRSB1bml0cyBvbiBmcmVpZ2h0IHRyYWlucy4gIFRoYXQgd2FzIGR1 cmluZyBteSB0ZW51cmUgYXQgQ2FudG9uIERpZXNlbCBTaG9wLiAgVGhlICJleHBlcmltZW50IiBv bmx5IGxhc3RlZCBhIGNvdXBsZSB3ZWVrcyB1bnRpbCB0aGUgSGFycmlzYnVyZyBEaWVzZWwgU2hv cCBoYWQgYSBodWdlIGJhY2tsb2cgb2YgRSB1bml0cyBhd2FpdGluZyBuZXcgbWFpbiBnZW5lcmF0 b3JzIGFuZCB0cmFjdGlvbiBtb3RvcnMgaW4gcGxhY2Ugb2YgdGhlIGZsYXNoZWQtb3ZlciBvbmVz Lg0KIA0KSXQgc2VlbXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgZnJlaWdodCBlbmdpbmVlcnMgZWl0aGVyIGRpZCBub3Qg a25vdywgb3IgZGlkIG5vdCByZWFsaXplLCB0aGF0IHRoZSBwYXNzZW5nZXIgdW5pdHMgd2VyZSBu b3QgZXF1aXBwZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBiYWNrd2FyZHMgdHJhbnNpc3Rpb24gd2hlbiBsdWdnaW5nIHVw 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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:57:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Bill Volkmer wrote: > If you didn't get your photos during February 1964, you missed the era > of E units on freight trains. That was during my tenure at Canton [] > The use of E units on passenger trains was a very short-lived phenomenon. If they didn't last long on passenger trains, and they didn't last long on freight trains, what the heck did they use them for? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:57:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Now It's Hitting the Fan From: Jerry Britton Even though the BLI T1 has been announced for some time, there are test shots online, and they are showing the model this week at the Chicago show, Walthers has just entered it as a new announcement with an Expected Date of OCTOBER 2004!!! What gives with BLI and these delays? No dealer info yet, but they've also apparently announced UP MT-73 4-8-2's and EMD SD4-2's. Not on their web site though. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:58:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] CORRECTION Re: Now It's Hitting the Fan From: Jerry Britton On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Even though the BLI T1 has been announced for some time, there are > test shots online, and they are showing the model this week at the > Chicago show, Walthers has just entered it as a new announcement with > an Expected Date of OCTOBER 2004!!! Okay, now I'm eating crow! Yes, BLI did set a date of OCTOBER 2004 for T-1's...but it's for newly announced C&O T-1 2-10-4's!!! Apologies to BLI. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:04:57 +0000 ndbprr@att.net wrote: "According to David P. Morgan in at least one article in Trains E units were flat land runners and F's were the grade pullers. That apparently explains the ATSF penchant for F units and except for Altoona to Galitzen (where helpers were used regardless) the PRR penchant for E units." Two other examples: - The SP tried out E-7s on the Shasta Daylight and on the Overland Route and found them less than suitable. They were sent to work trains out of LA on other routes and were replaced by PAs. - EL also got some final revenue miles out of their E-8s, sending them out west to work trains in Ohio. "Don't know if any were regeared to more freight like ratios like the PA's. I doubt it though. It was merely a case of what do we do with these dinosaurs until we can dump them." Some did make into freight service in a roundabout way - one E-unit provided enough 567 prime movers to re-engine two ALCo RS-3s, which is exactly what the "DeWitt Geep" program did. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:09:15 +0000 Derrick Brashear wrote: If they didn't last long on passenger trains, and they didn't last long on freight trains, what the heck did they use them for? ;-) 1. Trade-in credit to EMD. 2. Fodder for "DeWitt Geep" RS-3 rebuilds. ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:13:17 +0000 Fred and the List: So far, I have not encountered any freight trains through Warsaw in the 1965 train sheets that were pulled by E-units. It seems that E-units pulled passenger and mail trains exclusively on the Fort Wayne line. However, I am still early in the process and one may come up. It is interesting that Bill mentioned the February 1964 experiment. I did not know that! This proves that it was not a fluke, albeit short. I believe the PP 2 picture of the e-units pulling the Truc Train were not taken in February because I think the trees have leaves in the photo, indicating that it was a summer picture. In addition, the photo was probably taken before late 1966 since the engines have not been renumbered in the 4000's. Two possible explanations can be made outside of February 1964. First, E-units may have been used on fast freights to help balance power on certain occasions. That may be possible. Second, as the 1960's wore on, the total number of passenger trains that the Pennsy was operating was declining. That meant there was a increasing pool of E-units available for other uses including fast freight service. This may have served as rationale to use them on Truc Trains on occasion. My 2 cents worth... Ted (modelling the PRR Ft. Wayne line Indiana in 1965 AND February 1964!!) ;-) >From: Frederick Ripley >To: >Subject: [PRR] E-units on freights >Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:09:54 -0500 > >Hi All, > >The discussion of E's on stock trains reminds me of several shots I have >seen of E units on PRR priority freights. In one of Dave Sweetland's >books, >there is a shot or two of E's on JET-1 (I think also known as the "Yankee >Jet"), which he says was common during 1964. There is a neat shot in >"Pennsy Power II" of 4 E-8's on a truc-train, which doesn't have a date but >looks to be about 1964 or so. > >So can anyone elaborate as to how common was the usage, from the late '50's >through the end of the PRR, of E units on priority freights. I haven't >seen >any shots after about 1964-65, so presumably as more 2nd generation hoods >were delivered the usage lessened and/or stopped. > >Also, with the recent discussion of symbols, can anyone shed more light on >the above-mentioned JET-1? I believe this train came from New England >connections, and was delivered to the PRR via the Bel-Del branch?, and went >to Chicago. It is listed in a 1960 Pitts. Div. ETT I have, but not from >1964 on. This is a long shot, but I wonder if CB-1 (which Al B. couldn't >find anything on) was the continuation/replacement for this train? > >Thanks for any info, > >Fred R. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:14:13 -0400 From: "Gluckman, Robert" Subject: [PRR] Funeral Train This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_VwIlbQTZsjsa5Srwxt4Sag) Content-type: text/plain I was just looking thru the CT1000 for the Renovo Division and came across the following entry: Drury's Run, Pa. (Funeral Train Service only) Drury's Run is listed as 0.8 miles from the Renovo passenger station. Anyone have any information about this? Bob Gluckman --Boundary_(ID_VwIlbQTZsjsa5Srwxt4Sag) Content-type: text/html Message

I was just looking thru the CT1000 for the Renovo Division and came across the following entry:

Drury's Run, Pa. (Funeral Train Service only)

Drury's Run is listed as 0.8 miles from the Renovo passenger station. Anyone have any information about this?

Bob Gluckman

--Boundary_(ID_VwIlbQTZsjsa5Srwxt4Sag)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:38:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! From: Jerry Britton Timing is unbelievable! Walthers is showing ( http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200309/Freight ) that BLI has announced stock cars with animal sounds!!! Mmmmm. Wonder if there is a Smell function as well? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI response Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:38:35 +0000 > Any way you could be convinced to lower the hieght of the coal load in the > tender? It doesn't look all that realsitic and the way it is now there is > no room to add more realsitic coal to the pile. Thank you. We thank you for your input. Your suggestion is also what we are trying to do. However, it is too late to change. T1 is in production. However, our coal load looks very realistic and should have room for realistic coal. Thank you and best regards, Broadway Limited Imports, LLC Customer Service ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/12/03 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:44:48 +0000 I remember as a kid taking the Wilson Liner down the Delaware River from Phildelphia to an amusement park in New Jersey. The river was covered with tomatoes that my parents said were from the Campbell plant in Camden. I couldn't tell you today if they were excess, rotten or just parts of them but there sure were a lot! > In a message dated 9/12/03 1:41:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > The specific question would be, did they ever go = > > to > > >> out of the way places to serve little smaller clusters of = > > agricultural > > >> producers, like apple growers, or did those small producers just = > > have > > >> their stuff trucked to large terminals for loading?= > > Blocks at or near the source. A good example of this would be the Campbell's > tomato train. In the teens or 20's (???) PRR set out blocks of box cars on > a siding next to the Low Grade/Port Road in Washington Boro, Lancaster County, > PA. Washington Boro allegedly grew some of the best tasting tomatoe's in the > country at that time (still do). The "tomato" train was then taken to Camden > or Trenton, NJ (wherever Campbell soup was located at that time. If you look > hard enough during the winter, you can still see signs of that siding. > Additional information can be found in a brochure at the Tomato Barn along Route > 999 in Washington Boro, Lancaster County, PA. > > Bob Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:47:13 -0400 I have a few questions about E units on freights, perhaps one of you can shed some light on this for me. If E units were more powerful, why would they not work good in freight service ? With 2 engines, why not design some of them to pull freights and some for passenger service. It is my understanding that what was appealling about the FM trainmaster was high horsepower, 6 axles to spread the weight and heavy for good traction. Then look at the DD40's, they had 2 engines. What was it about the design, that could not be changed in the plant, that made these engines bad for freight service ? Thanks Kenny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:53:18 -0500 Now if we could just add smell! -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 2:38 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Timing is unbelievable! Walthers is showing ( http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200309/Freight ) that BLI has announced stock cars with animal sounds!!! Mmmmm. Wonder if there is a Smell function as well? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:57:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Capitol Tripper" Excursion to RailFest From: Jerry Britton Once again the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS is sponsoring an excursion to RailFest. Round trip ticket provides admission to RailFest in addition to excursion fare from Harrisburg on Oct. 4th to Altoona and return on Oct. 5th, with loop trip around Horseshoe Curve. Option extention to Pittsburgh for overnight available. See the chapter's web site for details: http://nrhs-hbg.pennsyrr.com . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Hide Cars Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:56:57 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37968.05C8FCA8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG93Y29tZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBuZXZlciBhbnkgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBhYm91dCB0aGUgUGVubnN5J3Mg bW92ZW1lbnQgb2Ygd2hhdCB3ZSB1c2VkIHRvIGNhbGwgImd1dHMgY2Fycz8iICBUaGVzZSB3ZXJl IGdvbmRvbGFzIHRoYXQgaGFkIG91dGxpdmVkIHRoZWlyIHVzZWZ1bG5lc3MgZm9yIGFueXRoaW5n IGVsc2UgYW5kIHdlcmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgYW5pbWFsIHJlbmRlcmluZ3MgYW5kIHNlbnQgSSBiZWxp ZXZlIHRvIGZhY3RvcmllcyB0aGF0IHByb2R1Y2VkIGdsdWUuICBBdCBhbnkgcmF0ZSB0aGUgY2Fy cyBsb29rZWQgbGlrZSBhIHJvbGxpbmcgbGFrZSB3aXRoIGxpcXVpZCBhYm91dCB0aGUgY29sb3Ig YW5kIGNvbnN0aXR1YW5jeSBvZiBhIHZhbmlsbGEgbWlsa3NoYWtlLg0KIA0KVGhlIHN0ZW50Y2gg dGhhdCBlbWluYXRlZCBmcm9tIHRoZXNlIGNhcnMgKHdoZW4gbG9hZGVkIG9mIGNvdXJzZSkgd2Fz IGluZGVzY3JpYmFibGUuDQogDQpOYXR1cmFsbHkgdGhlc2UgY2FycyBzcGVudCBhIGxvdCBvZiB0 aW1lIG9uIHRoZSByZXBhaXIgdHJhY2sgYW5kIG5vYm9keSB3YW50ZWQgdG8gd29yayBvbiB0aGVt Lg0KIA0KU28sIGl0IHdhcyBhbiB1bndyaXR0ZW4gcnVsZSBvbiB0aGUgUFJSIHRoYXQgYW55IGVt cGxveWVlIHdobyAidm9sdW50ZWVyZWQiIHRvIHBlcmZvcm0gbWFpbnRlbmFuY2Ugd29yayBvbiB0 aGUgaGlkZSBjYXJzIHdhcyBhdXRvbWF0aWNhbGx5IGdpdmVuIHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIHRoZSBkYXkg b2ZmLg0KIA0KQmlsbCBWb2xrbWVyIFBSUiBIaXN0b3JpYW4gM3JkIENsYXNzDQoNCgktLS0tLU9y aWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBKZXJyeSBCcml0dG9uIFttYWlsdG86amVycnlA cGVubnN5cnIuY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBGcmkgOS8xMi8yMDAzIDI6MzggUE0gDQoJVG86IFBSUi1U YWxrIExJU1QgDQoJQ2M6IA0KCVN1YmplY3Q6IFtQUlJdIFN0b2NrIENhciBUcmFpbnMgd2l0aCBT b3VuZCENCgkNCgkNCg0KCVRpbWluZyBpcyB1bmJlbGlldmFibGUhDQoJDQoJV2FsdGhlcnMgaXMg c2hvd2luZyAoDQoJaHR0cDovL3d3dy53YWx0aGVycy5jb20vZXhlYy9uZXdwcm9kdWN0cy9jci8y MDAzMDkvRnJlaWdodCApIHRoYXQgQkxJDQoJaGFzIGFubm91bmNlZCBzdG9jayBjYXJzIHdpdGgg YW5pbWFsIHNvdW5kcyEhIQ0KCQ0KCU1tbW1tLiBXb25kZXIgaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBTbWVsbCBm dW5jdGlvbiBhcyB3ZWxsPw0KCS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoJSmVycnkgQnJpdHRvbiwgU1BGICAgTWVtYmVyLCBQUlJU JkhTICAgamVycnlAcGVubnN5cnIuY29tDQoJUGVubnN5bHZhbmlhIFJhaWxyb2FkLCBFYXN0ZXJu IFJlZ2lvbiwgMTk1NCBpbiBOIFNjYWxlLg0KCSJLZXlzdG9uZSBDcm9zc2luZ3MiIC0gSG9tZSBv ZiB0aGUgIlBSUi1UYWxrIiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QhDQoJICAgICBodHRwOi8va2MucGVubnN5cnIu Y29tDQoJIk1lcmNoYW5kaXNlIFNlcnZpY2UiIC0gTW9kZWwgcmFpbHJvYWQgcHJvZHVjdHMuLi4N CgkgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9tZXJjaGFuZGlzZS5wZW5uc3lyci5jb20NCgkNCgkNCgktLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLQ0KCUZvciBhc3Npc3RhbmNlIHdpdGggdGhpcyBsaXN0LCBwbGVhc2UgdmlzaXQgaHR0cDov L2xpc3RzLmRzb3AuY29tLg0KCQ0KDQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37968.05C8FCA8 Content-Type: text/html; 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From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:59:09 +0000 As Emerill Lagasse would say, "You should have Smell-a-vision" :P Ted >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! >Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:38:23 -0400 > >Timing is unbelievable! > >Walthers is showing ( >http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200309/Freight ) that BLI has >announced stock cars with animal sounds!!! > >Mmmmm. Wonder if there is a Smell function as well? >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:10:22 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Gang, This does not look good...$100 for a stock car, and it looks like they are listing just about every road name in the ORER including PRR...wanna bet this isn't a K7a or K8? Anybody know what it is? Happy Rails Bruce >Walthers is showing ( >http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200309/Freight ) that BLI >has announced stock cars with animal sounds!!! > >Mmmmm. Wonder if there is a Smell function as well? Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:54:31 -0700 I think this distinction is very relative. The NYC, with its share of boiler-equipped F units, used E units for passenger trains on the mountainous B&A. Both the Erie and the Lackawanna replaced F3s with E units in passenger service on their mountainous main lines. The SP frequently used E units on the Coast Daylight, which had several climbs. And to people familiar with the territory, the SP's Golden State and Sunset Routes are by no means flat, with major grades on Beaumont Hill, in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. The UP also replaced passenger F3s with E units, notwithstanding its climbs over Cajon, Weber Canyon, and Sherman Hill. One issue of E7s was that EMD did not supply them with dynamic brakes, but the E8s and E9s had them as an option. This was one factor in the early choice of PAs over E7s by some roads, but as you can see, many did move to Es later, even in mountainous territory. The various SP motive power books in fact point to the dynamic brake issue as SP's main motivating factor in the PA vs E unit controversy. I was never all that impressed with David P. Morgan, anyhow. . . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" ; "Frederick Ripley" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights > According to David P. Morgan in at least one article in Trains E units were > flat land runners and F's were the grade pullers. That apparently explains > the ATSF penchant for F units and except for Altoona to Galitzen (where > helpers were used regardless) the PRR penchant for E units. With everybody > wanting out of the passenger business and wanting no equipment that could > remotely be construed as such there was probably no market for E units to > other roads. I would suspect without verifying that the E units were retired > pretty close to their fifteen year life cycles and gotten rid of as fast as > possible. That is conjecture and subject to the overall condition of > locomotives around the time of the merger and the need for anything that > could pull. I am on dangerous ground becasue I am unsure of the facts but an > E unit only had four traction motors (same as an F) and tractive effort would > suffer slightly because of weight distribution to two additional idler axles > so it probably couldn't start the same train as an F unit could. WIth the > additonal horsepower I suspect it could move a train faster once it got > going. Don't know if any were regeared to more freight like ratios like the > PA's. I doubt it though. It was merely a case of what do we do with these > dinosaurs unitl we can dump them. > > Hi All, > > > > The discussion of E's on stock trains reminds me of several shots I have > > seen of E units on PRR priority freights. In one of Dave Sweetland's books, > > there is a shot or two of E's on JET-1 (I think also known as the "Yankee > > Jet"), which he says was common during 1964. There is a neat shot in > > "Pennsy Power II" of 4 E-8's on a truc-train, which doesn't have a date but > > looks to be about 1964 or so. > > > > So can anyone elaborate as to how common was the usage, from the late '50's > > through the end of the PRR, of E units on priority freights. I haven't seen > > any shots after about 1964-65, so presumably as more 2nd generation hoods > > were delivered the usage lessened and/or stopped. > > > > Also, with the recent discussion of symbols, can anyone shed more light on > > the above-mentioned JET-1? I believe this train came from New England > > connections, and was delivered to the PRR via the Bel-Del branch?, and went > > to Chicago. It is listed in a 1960 Pitts. Div. ETT I have, but not from > > > 1964 on. This is a long shot, but I wonder if CB-1 (which Al B. couldn't > > find anything on) was the continuation/replacement for this train? > > > > Thanks for any info, > > > > Fred R. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:21:56 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! If there is a smell function, this would be the one time I would be happy to pay some Chinese teenager to assemble the car for me ;-) Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > Now if we could just add smell! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 2:38 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! > > Timing is unbelievable! > > Walthers is showing ( > http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200309/Freight ) that BLI > has announced stock cars with animal sounds!!! > > Mmmmm. Wonder if there is a Smell function as well? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Hide Cars Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:31:54 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3796C.E7BD0ABC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlcmUgd2VyZSBubyBzcGVjaWZpYyBjYXJzIGFzc2lnbmVkIHRvIHRoaXMgc2VydmljZS4gIFRo ZSBvbmx5IHJlcXVpc2l0ZSB3YXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgY2FyIGhhdmUgYSBzdGVlbCBmbG9vciBhbmQg YmUgcmVhc29uYWJseSBsZWFrIHByb29mLiBUaGUgcGFpbnQgam9iIG9uIHRoZSBleHRlcmlvciB3 YXMgc3VjaCB0aGF0IHdlIGNvdWxkIGJhcmVseSByZWFkIHRoZSBjYXIgbnVtYmVyIGFuZCBsaXR0 bGUgZWxzZS4NCiANClRoZXkgY291bGQgYmUgZm91bmQgYWxsIG92ZXIgdGhlIHN5c3RlbS4gIEkg aGFkIHRoZW0gaW4gdGhlIHNob3AgYXQgTm9ydGh1bWJlcmxhbmQgYW5kIHRoZXJlIHdlcmUgbG90 cyBvZiB0aGVtIG9uIHRoZSBzaG9wIHRyYWNrcyBhdCBFLiBBbHRvb25hIGFuZCBTLiBQaGlsYWRl bHBoaWEgdG8gbmFtZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBvdGhlcnMuDQogDQpXaGF0IHdvdWxkIGhhcHBlbiBp cyB0aGF0IHRoZSBjYXJzIHdvdWxkIGdldCBodW1wZWQgb3IgZmxhdCBzd2l0Y2hlZCBhbmQgdGhl 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From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:47:44 -0700 Jerry, Did you catch the price! $99 each! Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:38 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Timing is unbelievable! Walthers is showing ( http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200309/Freight ) that BLI has announced stock cars with animal sounds!!! Mmmmm. Wonder if there is a Smell function as well? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:48:43 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3796F.40D72184 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WW91IGZvcmdldCB0aGF0IHJhaWxyb2FkcyBpbiAxOTQ2IHB1cmNoYXNlZCBkaWVzZWwgdW5pdHMg Zm9yIGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgam9iIChlLmcgZnJlaWdodCwgcGFzc2VuZ2VyLCBicmFuY2ggbGluZSwg c3dpdGNoaW5nIGV0YykgYW5kIHRoZSBpZGVhIG9mIGEgY29tbW9uIGRlc2lnbiBmb3IgZ2VuZXJh bCBmcmVpZ2h0IGFuZCBwYXNzZW5nZXIgc2VydmljZSBkaWQgbm90IHN1cmZhY2UgdW50aWwgdGhl IEdQIChHZW5lcmFsIFB1cnBvc2UpIHNlcmllcyBjYW1lIGludG8gcGxheS4gIEV2ZW4gd2l0aCB0 aGUgR1AtN3MgU0QtOXMgZXRjLiB0aGUgcmFpbHJvYWRzIHVzdWFsbHkgdGFpbG9yIHNwZWNpZmll ZCB0aGUgZ2VhcmluZywgc3RlYW0gZ2VuZXJhdG9yIG9yIG5vIGZvciB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWMgYXNz aWdubWVudCBpbnRlbmRlZC4gIFRoZSBGUC03cyBjYW1lIGNsb3NlIHRvIHRoYXQgaWRlYSBidXQg YXQgbGVhc3Qgb24gdGhlIFBlbm5zeSB0aGUgRlAtN3Mgd2VyZSBnZWFyZWQgdG9vIGxvdyB0byBt 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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:04:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More X29 Kits for You'll! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Last week I made a PSA that Red Caboose was making more HO X29 its available. The dreadnaught end version of the Circle Keystone car will be out in kits and RtR in 12 new road numbers in October. The new announcement is that in November/December time frame the dreadnaught end version of the Circle Keystone "Railway Express Agency" car will be available in kit and RtR in 12 new road numbers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:40:56 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3796E.2AB282C8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxsOg0KIA0KVGhlIGR5bmFtaWMgYnJha2UgKGxhY2sgb2YpIG9uIHRoZSBFLTdzIGFuZCBFLThz IGhhZCBsaXR0bGUgdG8gZG8gd2l0aCB0aGVpciBmYWlsdXJlIGFzIGZyZWlnaHQgdW5pdHMuICBJ dCB3YXMgdGhlIFRSQU5TSVRJT04gc3lzdGVtIGRpZmZlcmVuY2VzLiAgVGhlIGZyZWlnaHQgdW5p dHMgZXNzZW50aWFsbHkgInNoaWZ0ZWQgZG93biIgYXMgdGhlIHVuaXQgc3RhcnRlZCBsdWdnaW5n IG9uIGEgaGVhdnkgZ3JhZGUgd2hlcmVhcyB0aGUgcGFzc2VuZ2VyIHVuaXQgd2l0aCBpdHMgcmVs YXRpdmVseSBsaWdodGVyIGxvYWRzIGhhZCBubyBuZWVkIHRvIGRvIHRoaXMgc28gd2VyZSBub3Qg ZXF1aXBwZWQuDQogDQpGb3Igd2hhdCBpdHMgd29ydGgsIG9ubHkgdGhyZWUgcm9hZHMgdG8gbXkg a25vd2xlZGdlIGV2ZXIgaGFkIGR5bmFtaWMgYnJha2Ugb24gRU1EIHBhc3NlbmdlciB1bml0cy4g IFNQLCBVUCAgb24gdGhlaXIgRS05cywgYW5kIHRoZSBTUiB3aGljaCBpbnN0YWxsZWQgdGhlbSBh 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----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:20:47 -0700 I bellieve a great many PRR E units went on to PC, and ex-PRR PC units went to Amtrak, for the simple reason that they were the only passenger diesels Amtrak had equipped with PRR train control. The ex-PRR E7s could be seen in PC lettering on the NY&LB. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights > On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Bill Volkmer wrote: > > > If you didn't get your photos during February 1964, you missed the era > > of E units on freight trains. That was during my tenure at Canton > > [] > > > The use of E units on passenger trains was a very short-lived phenomenon. > > If they didn't last long on passenger trains, and they didn't last long on > freight trains, what the heck did they use them for? ;-) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:29:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights From: Roger P Hensley On my Railroads of Madison County web site, I have a photo of a Northbound PRR freight pulled by an E-Unit as it crossed Broadway Street in Anderson Indiana in 1965. The photo is poor, but it is obviously an E unit and I will testify that it was hauling freight as I took the photo. There was another I took during the same summer, but I have lost that one. That. too was a northbound freight. Roger Hensley - KC9EJI === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:14:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] More X29 Kits From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 05:04 PM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > Last week I made a PSA that Red Caboose was making more HO X29 its > available. The dreadnaught end version of the Circle Keystone car will > be out in kits and RtR in 12 new road numbers in October. Man my memory is bad!!! The above kits are already out. The RtR's are due in October. > > The new announcement is that in November/December time frame the > dreadnaught end version of the Circle Keystone "Railway Express > Agency" car will be available in kit and RtR in 12 new road numbers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Hide Cars Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:40:15 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3795D.4F4B4C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: gondolas that had outlived their usefulness for anything else and were used for animal renderings. Also known as offal. Story about a train with a gon of offal going into emergency right when the gon was by the tower and station in Plymouth. Of course a wave was formed and much offal spilled over and was deposited on the ROW. Whew - a real bad hair day for the track guys who had to clean it up. Hides were also shipped in tainted boxcars. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3795D.4F4B4C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Re: gondolas that had outlived = their=20 usefulness for anything else and were used for animal = renderings.

Also known as offal. Story about a = train=20 with a gon of offal going into emergency right when the gon was by = the=20 tower and station in Plymouth. Of course a wave was formed and much = offal=20 spilled over and was deposited on the ROW. Whew - a real bad hair = day for=20 the track guys who had to clean it up.

Hides were also shipped in tainted = boxcars.

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3795D.4F4B4C00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:32:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C3796D.05273E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How much do you want to bet? It is a K7A !!!! They were originally = going to offer without sound as well, but changed their mind for now. I = hinted to them that they might just sell one or two of them to PRR fans. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: ; Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Car Trains with Sound! > Gang, > > This does not look good...$100 for a stock car, and it looks like = they are > listing just about every road name in the ORER including PRR...wanna = bet > this isn't a K7a or K8? Anybody know what it is? > ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C3796D.05273E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How much do you want to bet? It is a K7A !!!! They were=20 originally going
to offer without sound as well, but changed their = mind for=20 now. I hinted to
them that they might just sell one or two of = them to=20 PRR fans.

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>To:=20 <prr-talk@dsop.com>; = <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Se= nt:=20 Friday, September 12, 2003 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Car = Trains with=20 Sound!

> Gang,
>
> This does not look=20 good...$100 for a stock car, and it looks like they
are
> = listing=20 just about every road name in the ORER including PRR...wanna bet
> = this=20 isn't a K7a or K8? Anybody know what it=20 is?
>

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C3796D.05273E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Speaking of K7As and other new offerings. Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:42:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C3796E.6F055610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I indicated in my post to Bruce, BLI has announced a stock car with = sound, based upon the PRR K7A. It is $99.99 and borders on appeasing = the Lionel crowd: I will not build FW8 with a fleet of those. I beat on = them to consider selling packs of them lettered PRR without sound (and = less than $99.99 :-)). I will post some photos and go over my notes on other items, but for PRR = fans, the other big news includes NW2 Phase V and SW7 Phase II in PRR = with two road numbers each. And sound. In early 2004. M1a, M1b, T1 looked great. Forgot to study the DGLE color. From memory = (I'll check my photos which I suspect may not be the sharpest) I would = say the M1 at least looked pretty good. The T1 didn't jump out at me as = too green, but again I will check the photos. As usual there are things I needed to ask but forgot. Based upon the = Pullman two-tone gray pool car, I at least have a feeling Walthers will = use the correct skirted 442 to do the Fleet of Modernism version, but I = forgot to specifically ask. More later. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C3796E.6F055610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As I indicated in my post to Bruce, BLI = has=20 announced a stock car with sound, based upon the PRR K7A. It is = $99.99 and=20 borders on appeasing the Lionel crowd: I will not build FW8 with a fleet = of=20 those. I beat on them to consider selling packs of them lettered = PRR=20 without sound (and less than $99.99 :-)).

I will post some photos and go over my = notes on=20 other items, but for PRR fans, the other big news includes = NW2 Phase=20 V and SW7 Phase II in PRR with two road numbers each. And sound. = In early=20 2004.

M1a, M1b, T1 looked great. Forgot = to study=20 the DGLE color. From memory (I'll check my photos which I suspect = may not=20 be the sharpest) I would say the M1 at least looked pretty good. = The T1=20 didn't jump out at me as too green, but again I will check the=20 photos.

As usual there are things I needed to = ask but=20 forgot. Based upon the Pullman two-tone gray pool car, I at least = have a=20 feeling Walthers will use the correct skirted 442 to do the Fleet of = Modernism=20 version, but I forgot to specifically ask.

More later.

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C3796E.6F055610-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] FGEX and P85 (was speaking of K7As and other offerings) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:53:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C3796F.E8ABA680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For PRR reefer fans, I wanted to just quickly add that at the Hobby Show = Intermountain confirmed that their N scale wood FGEX reefers will be = offered in HO, as I believe had been previously announced in at least = some press. If anyone has seen the N scale versions yet, can they = comment on their accuracy for FGEX? The HO will be the same car.=20 The P85s looked great and these were just preproduction samples, sans = interiors. Color looked good to me. There has been considerable = discussion of the truck choice on the Passenger car list, but I can only = say the cars look great and the underbody detail raises the bar for = everyone in model passenger railroading. IMNSHO. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C3796F.E8ABA680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For PRR reefer fans, I wanted to just = quickly add=20 that at the Hobby Show Intermountain confirmed that their N scale wood = FGEX=20 reefers will be offered in HO, as I believe had been previously = announced in at=20 least some press. If anyone has seen the N scale versions yet, can = they=20 comment on their accuracy for FGEX? The HO will be the same car.=20

The P85s looked great and these were = just=20 preproduction samples, sans interiors. Color looked good to = me. =20 There has been considerable discussion of the truck choice on the = Passenger car=20 list, but I can only say the cars look great and the underbody detail = raises the=20 bar for everyone in model passenger railroading. IMNSHO.

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C3796F.E8ABA680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr6100@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:10:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] (no subject) --part1_107.26bf4f0a.2c93d682_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whats the latest news on when the M-1's will be released? --part1_107.26bf4f0a.2c93d682_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whats the latest news on wh= en the M-1's will be released? --part1_107.26bf4f0a.2c93d682_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:20:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Loco Assignments - Thanks --part1_c8.3d5daeb2.2c93d904_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all, I now have a wealth of information to model steam and diesel under wire on the Philly to Harrisburg mainline. Thank again, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_c8.3d5daeb2.2c93d904_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all,

I now have a wealth of information to model steam and diesel under wi= re on the Philly to Harrisburg mainline.

Thank again,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_c8.3d5daeb2.2c93d904_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] bli dgle color Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:48:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C37988.64131070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shot through glass and under whatever lighting in the Convention Center, = but you can judge for yourself: www.fleetofmodernism.com/t1.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/t1a.jpg Also under same circumstances, M1a: www.fleetofmodernism.com.m1a.jpg Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C37988.64131070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Shot through glass and under whatever = lighting in=20 the Convention Center, but you can judge for yourself:

www.fleetofmodernism.com/= t1.jpg

www.fleetofmodernism.com= /t1a.jpg

Also under same circumstances, = M1a:

www.fleetofmodernism.com= .m1a.jpg

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C37988.64131070-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Correct URLs: bli dgle color Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:23:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3798D.509668D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Incorrect URLs in my last post. Here are the correct ones: www.fleetofmodernism.com/blit1.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/blit1a.jpg =20 and=20 www.fleetofmodernism.com/blim1a.jpg Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3798D.509668D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Incorrect URLs in my last post. = Here are the=20 correct ones:

www.fleetofmodernism.c= om/blit1.jpg

www.fleetofmodernism.= com/blit1a.jpg

and

www.fleetofmodernism.= com/blim1a.jpg

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3798D.509668D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:57:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of K7As and other new offerings. From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 09:42 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > I will post some photos and go over my notes on other items, but for=20= > PRR fans, the other big news=A0includes =A0NW2 Phase V and SW7 Phase = II in=20 > PRR with two road numbers each.=A0 And sound. In early 2004. These were announced about six months ago. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:59:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FGEX and P85 (was speaking of K7As and other offerings) From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 09:53 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > For PRR reefer fans, I wanted to just quickly add that at the Hobby=20 > Show Intermountain confirmed that their N scale wood FGEX reefers will=20= > be offered in HO, as I believe had been previously announced in at=20 > least some press.=A0 If anyone has seen the N scale versions yet, can=20= > they comment on their accuracy for FGEX?=A0 The HO will be the same = car. It's not out yet. They had done an incorrect R40-23 (I think it was).=20 What is coming is the 40' wood reefer in FGE, WFE, BREX, etc. I suspect=20= the first scheme will arrive in October. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:00:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 10:10 PM, Prr6100@aol.com wrote: > Whats the latest news on when the M-1's will be released? BLI is still telling dealers November...BUT they haven't issues a "guaranteed order cutoff date" yet. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct URLs: bli dgle color Bob, Thanks for the pics. The T's do appear to be on the greenish side. The lettering looks a bit too yellow as well. The M1a on the other hand looks ok, weathering will fix any problem there. Most likely they used the same paint though on both? Hopefully it was just the lighting that showed the different shades. Being they had more than 1 T1 on had, tells me they may be on schedule for release right after the M's! Yippie!...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] FGEX and P85 (was speaking of K7As and other offerings) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:02:01 -0500 Would be nice, but I didn't get the impression they are that close. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" It's not out yet. They had done an incorrect R40-23 (I think it was). What is coming is the 40' wood reefer in FGE, WFE, BREX, etc. I suspect the first scheme will arrive in October. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] stock cars under $99.00 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:34:28 -0700 The kit builders on the List may want to try Jays trains web site to seek out some of the Ambroid stock car kits. These can be upgraded by adding evergreen strips for the steel bracing, and there are enough newer detailing parts to build very respectable K7/8 types. OR You can wait to see if Al Westerfield gets the bug to put out a kit at Cincinnati next May. Remember >> if you don't see it advertised >> use your e-mail to the manufacturer of your choice often! They do survey the requests!!! Question of the day>>> have seen the ads for the new Bowser N8 cabins; has anyone on the list ordered/received one as yet? Would like an opinion of same if someone has the time. Thanks Fred in Vt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] 1950's trailers and the Hobby Show Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:53:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C379D4.88E80300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another item which might be of interest in light of recent discussions = on trailers. At the show, an exhibitor had a former Ulrich truck and = trailer which he brought as a favor to a friend who is preserving model = railroad history by resurrecting older products. They are starting with = Ulrich, Bowser, Mantua, and a few others. =20 The 1950 Fruehauf trailer $17.95 kit) and 1955 COE Mack cab of Ulrich = has had the tooling cleaned up and the sample looked very nice. Might = add weight a little too high for a TOFC application, but one or two = might add variety to your early TOFC train. Go to www.railstop.com and browse around. Kind of interesting. = Obviously some of the old tooling will not compare to today's, but some = of these are rare items. As a matter of fact I have one of those Ulrich = drop bottom gondolas and it still looks good and runs well (only problem = is that it doesn't meet club standards for weight---too heavy and I had = to get a waiver!) Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C379D4.88E80300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Another item which might be of interest = in light of=20 recent discussions on trailers. At the show, an exhibitor had a former = Ulrich=20 truck and trailer which he brought as a favor to a friend who is = preserving=20 model railroad history by resurrecting older products. They are = starting=20 with Ulrich, Bowser, Mantua, and a few others.

The 1950 Fruehauf trailer $17.95 = kit)=20 and 1955 COE Mack cab of Ulrich has had the tooling cleaned up and = the=20 sample looked very nice. Might add weight a little too high for a TOFC=20 application, but one or two might add variety to your early TOFC=20 train.

Go to www.railstop.com and browse = around. =20 Kind of interesting. Obviously some of the old tooling will = not=20 compare to today's, but some of these are rare items. As a matter = of fact=20 I have one of those Ulrich drop bottom gondolas and it still looks good = and runs=20 well (only problem is that it doesn't meet club standards for = weight---too heavy=20 and I had to get a waiver!)

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C379D4.88E80300-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of K7As and other new offerings. Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:36:47 -0500 I must be having a senior moment :-). Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" . other big news includes NW2 Phase V and SW7 Phase II in > PRR with two road numbers each. And sound. In early 2004. These were announced about six months ago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:06:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3 -- No PRR Plans? From: Jerry @ Pennsy Gang: This info is not from IM, but is a report from an attendee to the Chicago show, so temper it as a second hand report. (Source: http://forum.atlasrr.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28470&whichpage=3&ARCHIVE= ) InterMountain was showing a test shot of the forthcoming F3 Phase II. I haven't been able to confirm yet if it was an "early" or "late" Phase II. No matter. PRR is not in the list of the first batch of road names. That I can live with. But the individual making the report said the IM rep indicated that they WILL NOT be doing PRR at all. They are only doing the large number board version and the PRR had the small number boards. They say (and I don't know the facts on this) that there were only two roads that bought F3's with small number boards and that they cannot justify making a second master just for small number boards. I hope this is not true. You HO scalers also ought to ask, as IM plans HO F3's. Will the PRR be left out? Or will they be painted on incorrect shells? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Correct URLs: bli dgle color Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:30:08 -0500 Bob, Did you happen to notice if either of the BLI PRR locos had traction tires? Or does anybody else know. I have the Hudson and am happy with its pulling power without the traction tires. While I don't have a Class A, I know those do have traction tires. I'm hoping the PRR locos do not have them. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bob Zoeller Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 12:24 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Correct URLs: bli dgle color Incorrect URLs in my last post. Here are the correct ones: www.fleetofmodernism.com/blit1.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/blit1a.jpg and www.fleetofmodernism.com/blim1a.jpg Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct URLs: bli dgle color Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:56:19 -0500 Darn, Andy. Wish I had checked. With an M1a, M1b, and a T1 on order it might not be a dealbreaker for me, but it will sure cause some cognitive dissonance. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" > > Did you happen to notice if either of the BLI PRR locos had traction tires? > Or does anybody else know. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:03:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Now It's Hitting the Fan -- BLW future projects --part1_c8.3d673d89.2c94fc31_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry et al.: New from BLW -- from distributor who I don't use for this product. 4-8-4 ATSF Fall 2004 2-10-4 C&O T1 fall 2004 (easy to do as this is the class upon which the J1 was based so mechanism will be the same shell details different) SD40-2 Summer 2004 4-8-2 UP MT April 2004 stock car with sound choice of hogs or cattle based on the PRR K7a but PRR not include in the paint schemes Rich Orr --part1_c8.3d673d89.2c94fc31_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry et al.:

New from BLW -- from distributor who I don't use for this product.

4-8-4 ATSF Fall 2004
2-10-4 C&O T1 fall 2004 (easy to do as this is the class upon which the=20= J1 was based so mechanism will be the same shell details different)
SD40-2 Summer 2004
4-8-2 UP MT April 2004
stock car with sound choice of hogs or cattle based on the PRR K7a but PRR n= ot include in the paint schemes

Rich Orr --part1_c8.3d673d89.2c94fc31_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:11:26 -0400 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:12:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Now It's Hitting the Fan -- BLW future projects From: Jerry @ Pennsy Resent-From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Saturday, September 13, 2003, at 07:03 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > 4-8-4 ATSF=A0 Fall 2004 > 2-10-4 C&O T1 fall 2004 (easy to do as this is the class upon which=20 > the J1 was based so mechanism will be the same shell details >=20 > different) > SD40-2 Summer 2004 > 4-8-2 UP MT April 2004 Been listed in my eStore since yesterday. > stock car with sound choice of hogs or cattle based on the PRR K7a but=20= > PRR not include in the paint schemes Didn't list these yet. Was still checking the calendar to see if it was=20= April 1st! PRR is in the paint schemes! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:31:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Now It's Hitting the Fan -- BLW future projects From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Saturday, September 13, 2003, at 07:11 PM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > On Saturday, September 13, 2003, at 07:03 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > >> 4-8-4 ATSF=A0 Fall 2004 >> 2-10-4 C&O T1 fall 2004 (easy to do as this is the class upon which=20= >> the J1 was based so mechanism will be the same shell details >=20 >> different) >> SD40-2 Summer 2004 >> 4-8-2 UP MT April 2004 > > Been listed in my eStore since yesterday. > >> stock car with sound choice of hogs or cattle based on the PRR K7a=20 >> but PRR not include in the paint schemes > > Didn't list these yet. Was still checking the calendar to see if it=20 > was April 1st! > > PRR is in the paint schemes! If anyone is interested, I have these listed now. The PRR is the first=20= two stock numbers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:31:25 -0400 From: David Carl =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mallon=E9e?= Subject: Re: [PRR] bli dgle color --Boundary_(ID_EQ+ARBxZMlR43ks/jgRotQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 404 Bob Zoeller wrote: > Shot through glass and under whatever lighting in the Convention Center, but you can judge for > yourself:www.fleetofmodernism.com/t1.jpgwww.fleetofmodernism.com/t1a.jpg Also under same circumstances, > M1a:www.fleetofmodernism.com.m1a.jpg Bob Zoeller -- "One grandfather worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad, The other worked for the Baltimore & Ohio. I have every damn right to be schizophrenic!" --Boundary_(ID_EQ+ARBxZMlR43ks/jgRotQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 404

Bob Zoeller wrote:

Shot through glass and under whatever lighting in the Convention Center, but you can judge for yourself:www.fleetofmodernism.com/t1.jpgwww.fleetofmodernism.com/t1a.jpg Also under same circumstances, M1a:www.fleetofmodernism.com.m1a.jpg Bob Zoeller

--
"One grandfather worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad,
The other worked for the Baltimore & Ohio.
I have every damn right to be schizophrenic!"
--Boundary_(ID_EQ+ARBxZMlR43ks/jgRotQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:17:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR 3 axle passenger trucks On Fri, 12 Sep 2003,Scott wrote: > A friend asked me to assemble a couple Bethlehem Car Works M70b kits. The > trucks he bought (from a suggestion in the instructions) are Keystone's > non-drop-equalized 6-wheel trucks (part # HO-9?). From the article I > gather this is the Pennsy 3D-P1 truck with roller bearings. When did the > M70b's get this truck? My friend models circa 1954-55. Scott, I've posted this reply to the PRR-talk list, since the day I think I'm a passenger car expert will be the day even I recognize my delusional state ! Indeed, if I have misused or abused any terminology in what follows, I apologize! In reviewing a whole bunch of photos from the usual suspects (PRR Color guides 1-3, N.J International's PRR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book, and the Spring 1993 and Spring 2003 Keystones), I have come to the following conclusions. Many heavyweight cars such as Diners, RPOs, combines etc... were built with the 3C-P1 truck. This truck has a built up upper frame, essentially rectangular in shape with lots of rivets. As you note: > The photo of 6550 in the Spring 1993 "Keystone" (the RPO issue) shows > drop-equalized trucks (3C-P1?) with a funky brace along the bottom edge. > Is there a model of this truck? And what's the funky brace for? The brace along the bottom is precisely that, a brace, as it appears that the vertical members holding the jounals in place would not have been very strong laterally. A modernized version of this truck, the 3D5P2 retains the bulky built up upper portion, but no longer has the brace. The 3D5P2 is availabe from Precision Scale. Both of these trucks have dual side bearings. D78s # 4489, built October, 1922 and #4499, built November, 1924 have the first occurance of the "modern" trucks, the former with plain bearing 3D5P3 trucks, the latter with roller bearing 3D7P1 trucks (Spring 2003 Keystone). These truck have a single side bearing. These trucks, and the 3D-P1 (aka 3D7P2), begin to appear on a variety of cars as they are rebuilt throughout the 1930s. However, a number of RPO car rebuildings are pictured as retaining the 3C-P1 trucks (B70 #6016, 1942, BM70m #5468, 1937, BM70n #6509, 1939, B70b #6101, 1945...) The earliest I found a photo of any RPO with 3D7P2 trucks is the Robert E Hannegan, after remodeling for service on the Broadway in 1946. M70b #6517 is shown with 3D-P1 trucks "in the 1940s". Later photos of M70b cars all show the 3D7P2 truck, but they are almost all 1960 or later. So what to do? It looks like you may be OK with a 3D-P1 (3D7P2) truck under your cars, although only because nobody can prove exactly when the car was converted (or, you can paint them all #6517) . I realized in working on this for you that I, as a WWII era modeler, need to rethink my truck inventory. Actually, my M70b rides on 3D5P2 from Precision, which are close but...the NJ INterantional book indicaes that they were not used under M70b cars. Now, I learned a lot about PRR heavyweight passenger trucks as I worked on this, but then I started to get confused. The Spring 2003 Keystone has a sidebar identifying many of the trucks under various diners. Unfortunately, these photos/descriptions do not agree with the NJ International book. I will ask Chuck Blardone (and anyone else who wants to) for a clarification...Here, for now is my best description, and modeling possibilities (which seem bleak). 3C-P1 (see above) - Model? 3D5P2 (see above) - Precision (note, the 4th photo on p36 Spring 2003 appears to be a 3D-P1, not a 3D5P2) 3D-P1 (3D7P2) This truck has swing hangers and does not have visible drop equalized frames. There are two holes in the side frame, on small bulges over the inner edge of the outer axles. Model? (Keystone?) 3D5P3 - plain bearings, prominent drop equalized frame, no swing hangers, and a hole directly over the outer axles. (note picture #7, p36, and picture #1, p37, Spring 2003 appear to be 3D-P1 like trucks and not 3D5P3s) 3D7P1 - the Spring 2003 Keystone shows a truck with roller bearings the looks very similar to the 3D5P3 with a hole over the outer wheel, prominent drop equalizers and no visible swing hangers Now here's the bad news...I looked at the truck ECW supplies with their cars (labeled as 3D-P1). The truck has detail that might represent the appropriate holes inboard of the outer wheel, but it has prominent drop equalizers, and no visible swing hanges...Looks like a hybrid of the 3D-P1/3D7P2 and the 3D5P3/3D7P1 designs. So, anyone else out there want to comment on an available accurate 3C-P1 and 3D-P1? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3 -- No PRR Plans Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:20:42 -0400 Jerry and list, Even if the PRR F3 didn't have the chicken wire, they still had the small number boards. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_F3_Color.jpg Very few roads had the small number boards. In spite of this, I think it is a little short sighted in N scale to not make them. If the molds are made correctly, the nose and sides can be inserts so different versions can be made. This is why I did not get PRR F units until S Helper Service released the F7. However, they will be done eventually. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html I am about 1/2 hour away from finishing my first draft of a how to article of my F unit set. I just need the motivation! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_F7_1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_F7_2.jpg I HAD to sneak some S Scale in an N scale post! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:11:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: Tenders on I1s Decapods All, is there a source of information for which tenders were attached to which locomotive? I've read that the I1s' were built with 90F82 (90F75?) tenders and were later reequipped on a random basis with larger tenders. I model the early 1950s Buffalo Division. Thanks, Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:39:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3 -- No PRR Plans --part1_111.27ec9d77.2c9601b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Lane writes... > Even if the PRR F 3 didn't have the chicken wire, they still had the small > number boards. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_F3_Color.jpg. Very > few roads had the small number boards. Bill and all, This EMD builders photo (I have the same photo) is of one of the first groups of EMD F 7's and the last production run of the F-Unit with streamlined 4 digit number boards. There was no further EMD F-Unit production with these number boards. The last two roads to use these number board types PRR and MP. >I think it is a little short sighted in N scale to not make them. If the molds are made correctly, the nose and sides can be inserts so different versions can be made.< More than just a bit short sighted. The number boards and pilots can be an add on part and as long as manufacturers are taking advantage of off shore labor, there is no good reason not to get them correct. But, unfortunately I believe that the N Scale market is not taken nearly as seriously as the others. In other words just build it and they'll buy is rule not the exception, in their marketing scheme. Bill, those are some beautiful F-Units... Greg Martin --part1_111.27ec9d77.2c9601b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Lane writes...

Even if the PRR F 3 didn't have= the chicken wire, they still had the small number boards. http://mywebpages= .comcast.net/billlane/EMD_F3_Color.jpg. Very few roads had the small number=20= boards.

Bill and all,

This EMD builders photo (I have the same photo) is of one of the first group= s of EMD F 7's and the last production run of the F-Unit with streamlined 4=20= digit number boards. There was no further EMD F-Unit production with t= hese number boards. The last two roads to use these number board types PRR a= nd MP.

>I think it is a little s= hort sighted in N scale to not make them. If the molds are made correctly, t= he nose and sides can be inserts so different versions can be made.<

More than just a bit short sighted. The number boards and pilots can be an a= dd on part and as long as manufacturers are taking advantage of off shore la= bor, there is no good reason not to get them correct. But, unfortunately I b= elieve that the N Scale market is not taken nearly as seriously as the other= s. In other words just build it and they'll buy is rule not the exception, i= n their marketing scheme.

Bill, those are some beautiful F-Units...

Greg Martin --part1_111.27ec9d77.2c9601b9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:20:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C37ADC.27CF0BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This discussion of Delmarva and stocks cars brought up a question in my = mind. One of the current agra-biggies on Delmarva is poultry. I believe = it goes back at least to the 1920's. So my question is this. Does = anyone know if live poultry especially chickens were ever transported by = rail on Delmarva? And if it was in what type of car? Thanks Bill=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Bruce=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; Bruce F. Smith=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's In addition to Long Island and New Jersey, we shouldn't forget the = Eastern Shore (what we called it in MD) or to others the DelMarVa area as originating points for produce. It would definitely be interesting to = hear exactly what was shipped and where it went. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's = and 1 960's > > It should also be pointed out that eastern Long Island was a = major > >potato growing area, and the various books on the LIRR in the steam = era > >have many photos of FGEX reefers being handled in the = potato-growing > >season. I would be willing to bet that these were headed to = Campbells > >Soup in Camden as well. The frozen food industry started in = southern New > >Jersey, and I wonder if some early traffic here came in reefers. = Also, > >the Keystone had an article quite a while ago on tomatoes being = handled > >to Campbells Soup (my memory is from Ohio) in stock cars. I = would guess > >that Cambells Soup and Camden were major produce destinations on = the PRR. > > John, > > Nice job combining the discussion of reefers and stock cars ! In = fact I > believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to = the > Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a discussion of = this > YEARS ago..need to check the archives. > > Bottom line on reefer traffic... > > PRR originating traffic should mostly go out in "PRR" (FGE or BREX = or WFEX) > reefers. Outbound traffic was often loaded locally, until the early 1960's > as the road system in agricultural areas did not support movement to = large > collecting points. Inbound traffic comes in a WIDE variety of = lines, > depending on originating location. In most cases, these come to = large > terminals such as Pittsburgh's for distribution to wholesale = markets. It > was not easy to get time sensitive cargo to smaller locations (like = the > local team track) so it was rare. Empty non-PRR reefer (PFE, = SFRD...) are > either shipped home empty or with priority loads such as magazines = or > newspapers. > > So, for me, I look at it as follows for train make up... > > Inbound loads (outbound empties) - a mix of roads > Outbound loads (inbound empties) - blocks of FGE, BREX, WFEX > > Note that the empties are not time sensitive and can be mixed = w/general > freight and therefore may not move as blocks, or Al Buchan pointed = out back > in November 2002, may move in blocks in "TRS" (tank, reefer, stock) = symbol > trains westbound (at least into the mid 1940's). The closer the = empties > are to the loading point, the more likely they are to be sorted into > "blocks" > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - = Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | = ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > = |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0 > > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C37ADC.27CF0BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This discussion of Delmarva and stocks cars brought up a = question in=20 my mind. One of the current agra-biggies on Delmarva is poultry. I = believe=20 it goes back at least to the 1920's. So my question is this. Does = anyone=20 know if live poultry especially chickens were ever transported by rail = on=20 Delmarva? And if it was in what type of car? Thanks Bill

----- Original Message -----

From: John Bruce

To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; Bruce F. Smith

Sent: Friday, September 12, = 2003 1:15=20 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, = Stock, Meat,=20 on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's

In addition to Long Island and New Jersey, we shouldn't = forget=20 the Eastern
Shore (what we called it in MD) or to others the = DelMarVa area=20 as
originating points for produce. It would definitely be = interesting=20 to hear
exactly what was shipped and where it went.

----- = Original=20 Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>To:=20 <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent:=20 Friday, September 12, 2003 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, = Stock, Meat,=20 on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1
960's

>=20 >    It should also be pointed out that eastern Long = Island=20 was a major
> >potato growing area, and the various = books on=20 the LIRR in the steam era
> >have many photos of FGEX reefers = being=20 handled in the potato-growing
> >season. I would be = willing to=20 bet that these were headed to Campbells
> >Soup in = Camden as=20 well. The frozen food industry started in = southern
New
>=20 >Jersey, and I wonder if some early traffic here came in=20 reefers.   Also,
> >the Keystone had an article = quite a=20 while ago on tomatoes being handled
> >to Campbells = Soup (my=20 memory is from Ohio) in stock cars.   I = would
guess
>=20 >that Cambells Soup and Camden were major produce = destinations on=20 the
PRR.
>
> John,
>
> Nice job combining = the=20 discussion of reefers and stock cars <G>! In = fact
I
>=20 believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to = the
>=20 Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a discussion = of=20 this
> YEARS ago..need to check the archives.
>
> = Bottom=20 line on reefer traffic...
>
> PRR originating traffic = should=20 mostly go out in "PRR" (FGE or BREX or
WFEX)
> reefers. = Outbound traffic was often loaded locally, until the = early
1960's
>=20 as the road system in agricultural areas did not support movement to=20 large
> collecting points. Inbound traffic comes in a WIDE = variety=20 of lines,
> depending on originating location. In most = cases,=20 these come to large
> terminals such as Pittsburgh's for = distribution to=20 wholesale markets. It
> was not easy to get time sensitive = cargo=20 to smaller locations (like the
> local team track) so it was = rare. =20 Empty non-PRR reefer (PFE, SFRD...) are
> either shipped home = empty or=20 with priority loads such as magazines or
> = newspapers.
>
>=20 So, for me, I look at it as follows for train make = up...
>
>=20 Inbound loads (outbound empties) - a mix of roads
> Outbound = loads=20 (inbound empties) - blocks of FGE, BREX, WFEX
>
> Note = that the=20 empties are not time sensitive and can be mixed w/general
> = freight and=20 therefore may not move as blocks, or Al Buchan pointed = out
back
> in=20 November 2002, may move in blocks in "TRS" (tank, reefer, stock)=20 symbol
> trains westbound (at least into the mid 1940's). = The=20 closer the empties
> are to the loading point, the more likely = they are=20 to be sorted into
> "blocks"
>
> Happy Rails
> = Bruce
>
> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
> = Scott-Ritchey=20 Research Center
> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
> http://www.vetmed.auburn.= edu/~smithbf/
>
>=20 "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" -=20 = Benjamin
Franklin
>       &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;       =20 = __
>          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;   =20 / \
>  =20 __<+--+>________________\__/___  =20 ____________________________________
> |- ______/=20 O        O \_______ -| | __ = __ =20 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = |
> | /=20 4999 PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ |=20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
> =20 = |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|<= BR>> =20 | O--O     \0 0 0 = 0/   =20 O--O |  =20 = 0-0-0           &n= bsp;           =20 0-0-0
>
>
>
>=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

----= -------------------------------------------------------------------
Fo= r=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C37ADC.27CF0BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 3 axle passenger trucks Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:16:33 -0500 Hi Guys and Listers First, let me start this with the "disclaimer". This is only from whatever records I could find in print, and don't have the actual source. Sorry! So, take this as "just being helpful". I own several ECW kits. Subsequently, their trucks. I have assembled them with 36" Kadee wheels. To the best of my knowledge, roller bearings began to appear on railroads around 1 February 1923. As to when the PRR used them, I have no specific date. Pictures in Color Guide #1 on pages 6,7,8 do show the exact same 6 wheel trucks I have from the ECW kits. They are roller bearing. I can see no differences. Keep in mind, my eyes are 64 years old and need glasses. I also used a magnifying glass. It appears that these (3D-P1 ? ) trucks were indeed used under a lot of PRR cars. I would assume because of the extra load carrying capacity of the 6 wheel truck, they would be under cars requiring that capacity. i.e. Baggage, Mail, Diners, etc. We are talking the 1920's here. Pictures also show these same trucks used in later periods. On page 10 of Color Guide #1 shows a diner in 1962 with what appear to be these trucks. So to answer Mr Chatfield, yes, these trucks were in use on the PRR from the 1920''s to at least 1960. And an M70b being a "mail" car would have them. So go ahead! And Mr Smith - the day you become expert, and all the rest of us do, then we will all be. LOL I have no specific info re the other 3L-P# trucks. I'm not knowledgeable enough to be able to tell that. I can only go from photos and what I can see. Hope this helps. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: "D. Scott Chatfield" Cc: Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2003 10:17 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR 3 axle passenger trucks > On Fri, 12 Sep 2003,Scott wrote: > > > A friend asked me to assemble a couple Bethlehem Car Works M70b kits. The > > trucks he bought (from a suggestion in the instructions) are Keystone's > > non-drop-equalized 6-wheel trucks (part # HO-9?). From the article I > > gather this is the Pennsy 3D-P1 truck with roller bearings. When did the > > M70b's get this truck? My friend models circa 1954-55. > > Scott, > > I've posted this reply to the PRR-talk list, since the day I think I'm a > passenger car expert will be the day even I recognize my delusional > state ! Indeed, if I have misused or abused any terminology in what > follows, I apologize! > > In reviewing a whole bunch of photos from the usual suspects (PRR Color > guides 1-3, N.J International's PRR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan > and Photo Book, and the Spring 1993 and Spring 2003 Keystones), I have > come to the following conclusions. > > Many heavyweight cars such as Diners, RPOs, combines etc... were built > with the 3C-P1 truck. This truck has a built up upper frame, > essentially rectangular in shape with lots of rivets. As you note: > > > The photo of 6550 in the Spring 1993 "Keystone" (the RPO issue) shows > > drop-equalized trucks (3C-P1?) with a funky brace along the bottom edge. > > Is there a model of this truck? And what's the funky brace for? > > The brace along the bottom is precisely that, a brace, as it appears that > the vertical members holding the jounals in place would not have been very > strong laterally. A modernized version of this truck, the 3D5P2 retains > the bulky built up upper portion, but no longer has the brace. The 3D5P2 > is availabe from Precision Scale. Both of these trucks have dual side > bearings. > > D78s # 4489, built October, 1922 and #4499, built November, 1924 have the > first occurance of the "modern" trucks, the former with plain bearing > 3D5P3 trucks, the latter with roller bearing 3D7P1 trucks (Spring 2003 > Keystone). These truck have a single side bearing. These trucks, and the > 3D-P1 (aka 3D7P2), begin to appear on a variety of cars as they are rebuilt > throughout the 1930s. However, a number of RPO car rebuildings are pictured > as retaining the 3C-P1 trucks (B70 #6016, 1942, BM70m #5468, 1937, BM70n > #6509, 1939, B70b #6101, 1945...) > > The earliest I found a photo of any RPO with 3D7P2 trucks is the Robert E > Hannegan, after remodeling for service on the Broadway in 1946. M70b #6517 > is shown with 3D-P1 trucks "in the 1940s". > > Later photos of M70b cars all show the 3D7P2 truck, but they are almost > all 1960 or later. > > So what to do? It looks like you may be OK with a 3D-P1 (3D7P2) truck > under your cars, although only because nobody can prove exactly when the > car was converted (or, you can paint them all #6517) . I realized in > working on this for you that I, as a WWII era modeler, need to rethink my > truck inventory. Actually, my M70b rides on 3D5P2 from Precision, which > are close but...the NJ INterantional book indicaes that they were not used > under M70b cars. > > Now, I learned a lot about PRR heavyweight passenger trucks as I worked on > this, but then I started to get confused. The Spring 2003 Keystone has a > sidebar identifying many of the trucks under various diners. > Unfortunately, these photos/descriptions do not agree with the NJ > International book. I will ask Chuck Blardone (and anyone else who wants > to) for a clarification...Here, for now is my best description, and > modeling possibilities (which seem bleak). > > 3C-P1 (see above) - Model? > > 3D5P2 (see above) - Precision (note, the 4th photo on p36 Spring 2003 > appears to be a 3D-P1, not a 3D5P2) > > 3D-P1 (3D7P2) This truck has swing hangers and does not have visible drop > equalized frames. There are two holes in the side frame, on small bulges > over the inner edge of the outer axles. Model? (Keystone?) > > 3D5P3 - plain bearings, prominent drop equalized frame, no swing hangers, > and a hole directly over the outer axles. (note picture #7, p36, and > picture #1, p37, Spring 2003 appear to be 3D-P1 like trucks and not > 3D5P3s) > > 3D7P1 - the Spring 2003 Keystone shows a truck with roller bearings the > looks very similar to the 3D5P3 with a hole over the outer wheel, > prominent drop equalizers and no visible swing hangers > > Now here's the bad news...I looked at the truck ECW supplies with their > cars (labeled as 3D-P1). The truck has detail that might represent the > appropriate holes inboard of the outer wheel, but it has prominent drop > equalizers, and no visible swing hanges...Looks like a hybrid of the > 3D-P1/3D7P2 and the 3D5P3/3D7P1 designs. > > So, anyone else out there want to comment on an available accurate 3C-P1 > and 3D-P1? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:23:54 GMT Subject: [PRR] Comment on Organized Religion in HP From: Dominic Mazoch It seems to me there could be a commentary about organized religion in the HP books. I see this in the following ways: 1. Harry's Scar: The "mark" on the soul some relions say happens during baptism. 2. Harry's House Mascot: The Lion; symbol of the Nation of Isreal. 3. In the Catholic Church, you hear people saying you are not a Catholic unless you are into the Latin Mass, or being Charismatic, or being in an Eastern Rite. Sounds like what we hear about "Mudbloods", battle among the Houses, et. al. Question: What makes one a "witch/wizzard" in Harry's world, or a Church member in the mugle world. 4. "Houston, we have a problem." The Catholic Church had some warning about the sex scandel, but denined it. Sounds like the Ministry of Magic (MOM). MOM says "He Who...." is not back, even though after book 4 we know he is back..... 5. "No Vocations": Harry's Aunt and Uncle did not want him to go to Hogwarts. I have heard parents say, "Vocations (preist, nun, minister), but not in my family. Was JRK thinking of a convent or ministery, but was prevented by family. Hope this helps. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:27:48 GMT Subject: [PRR] Sent wrong post From: Dominic Mazoch Call the MOW. I sent the Harry Post to the wrong list. Sorry about the mistake. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Tenders on I1s Decapods Rob, There was an early b/w issue of the "Keystone" which described the classes of tenders used on the I1 2-10-0's. However, It didn't tell you which I1 got which tender. For that you need to view many photos to see the differences and pick one that matches your needs and then view an MP229 to see if that loco was assigned to your area of interests and era.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] So much for DGLE Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:49:00 -0400 Check this out! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 What do the experts have to say about this? Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:31:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Bill Lane wrote: > Check this out! > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 > > What do the experts have to say about this? I dunno know 'bout the eggsperts, but since Jerry gave me that honorary "Raymond Loewy Docotorate of Painting" degree a few years back, I've always felt free to comment ! As Greg Martin has shown us, the first documented use of "Brunswick Green" as a term may have occurred in PULLMAN documents regarding the repainting of 4 cars in 1940-42. Looking at the can of paint in question, my first response was that it was a fake. However, a quick look at the History page at Krylon.com, and I saw that the company came into being around 1950, using some Dupont technology, so PRR and Krylon do overlap. I am still concerned about the can, as it does not have the same "decoration (in fact, it has NO decoration, or KRYLON circle) that is present in advertising images from 1952 on. Heck, It could be real...I might just have to buy it and send it BLI, so that they can get the color right next time Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] So much for DGLE Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:38:47 -0400 Bruce & Bill, The PRR Ref# is consistent with the merger reumbering memo that Elden sent me for my site. The memo makes mention that spray cans of Brunswick Green were available to paint out the old PRR locomotive numbers before applying new scotchlight decals... The memo's date 5/16/66. Based on this I'd say that there's a decent chance that it's authentic.. But can the color of a 37 year old can of spray paint be trusted? Perhaps Krylon still has the formulation! The memo also mentions Tuscan Red so maybe they made that too. http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_May16_1966.pdf Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 10:32 PM To: Bill Lane Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Bill Lane wrote: > Check this out! > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 > > What do the experts have to say about this? I dunno know 'bout the eggsperts, but since Jerry gave me that honorary "Raymond Loewy Docotorate of Painting" degree a few years back, I've always felt free to comment ! As Greg Martin has shown us, the first documented use of "Brunswick Green" as a term may have occurred in PULLMAN documents regarding the repainting of 4 cars in 1940-42. Looking at the can of paint in question, my first response was that it was a fake. However, a quick look at the History page at Krylon.com, and I saw that the company came into being around 1950, using some Dupont technology, so PRR and Krylon do overlap. I am still concerned about the can, as it does not have the same "decoration (in fact, it has NO decoration, or KRYLON circle) that is present in advertising images from 1952 on. Heck, It could be real...I might just have to buy it and send it BLI, so that they can get the color right next time Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] RPM Meet this weekend in Perry Ohio Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:54:13 -0400 I just want to send a quick note mentioning the PRRT&HS will be represented at this week's upcoming RPM Meet in Perry Ohio. Anyone attending should stop by the PRRT&HS table and say hi. I will be easy to spot since I'll be the one drooling on the models, wait I probably won't be the only one. I do have a limp so that should be easy to spot. I will b bringing some 50's era PRR equipment to populate the table. I encourage others to do the same. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:45:39 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] DGLE Krylon From: "Bill Lane" wrote: Check this out! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 What do the experts have to say about this? Bill = = = = Well, they'll probably say that it's the wrong shade; authentic, maybe, but not quite accurate. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:42:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Short I1s/I1sa tender primer Hello list, Check the archives for more extensive information; what follows is from memory. Additions/corrections always welcomed as I'm away from my reference material this morning. I1s engines were initially put into service with 90F82 tenders. Around 1925-26, PRR got 100 130F82 tenders for some of the I1s class (90F82s became 90P70s and were used to upgrade K4s engines). Starting in the 30s, the 130F82s were converted to 130P75s and placed behind K4s engines; last conversion apparently done in 1949. But that doesn't end the saga of the 130F82; some tenders were reconverted to 130F82 from 1130P75 starting in the early 50s. One I1s engine had a 180F82 tender; it was built in the late 20s. In the 30s, it was converted to 180P75 and used behind streamlined K4s 3768 until the early 40s when it was returned to 180F82 class. According to Keyer's Kiesel tender article, this tender ran until the end of PRR steam behind an I1sa. In 1929, one I1s received an experimental 210F82 tender. More were built new in 1941-42 (most seem to have been 210F75s for use behind M1 engines). I think, but am not positive that some 210F75 tenders were converted to 210F82 tenders in the 50s....perhaps Don Harper or other Decapod afficionados know the full story. There's a Keystone article from the early 80s about the larger tenders; it's one of the gaps in my reference material Starting in 1952/53, at least four 110P75 tenders were converted to class 110F82 for use behind I1sa engines. Most common/likely tender would be 90F82 in the 40s/50s, followed by the 210F82...other tenders in relatively small numbers. As Gary Mittner points out, check photos to be sure/safe. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:10:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE The number and size of the rivets are wrong.....Jim McDaniel in Delmarva where we use brushes for broad strokes ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:10:20 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE The number and size of the rivets are wrong.....Jim McDaniel in Delmarva where we use brushes for broad strokes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:49:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] So much for DGLE Check this out! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 What do the experts have to say about this? Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:19:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports M1a/M1b Order Deadline From: Jerry Britton The HO scale M1a/M1b project is still scheduled to ship in November. On May 1st BLI cut off "guaranteed orders" on the GG-1. They were delivered in July. About a 10 week lag. Since the M's are due in November, I asked BLI about a cutoff for this project. Their response was... "We will be closing the order within the next few days." So, if you want one, and you haven't reserved yet, you'd better find yourself a dealer real soon and place a reservation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:22:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights From: Roger P Hensley This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3d24.5464.11c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. I really appreciate that. I thought the topic was Es on freights. My error. On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:18:12 -0500 "Bill Volkmer" writes: Off hand I would say E units on freights in Indiana was no big deal. E units on freights in Pennsylvania was a huge deal. Madison Hill excepted, of course! Roger Hensley - KC9EJI === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----__JNP_000_3d24.5464.11c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] E-units on freights

Thanks. I really appreciate that. I thought the topic was Es

on freights. My error.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:18:12 -0500 "Bill Volkmer" <bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com>=20 writes:

Off hand I would say E units on freights in Indiana was no big=20 deal. E units on freights in Pennsylvania was a huge deal. = Madison=20 Hill excepted, of course!

Roger Hensley - KC9EJI
=3D=3D=3D=20 Railroads of Madison County =3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D http://madisonrails.= railfan.net/=20 =3D=3D=3D
----__JNP_000_3d24.5464.11c7-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:18:12 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37B83.6E78AB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T2ZmIGhhbmQgSSB3b3VsZCBzYXkgRSB1bml0cyBvbiBmcmVpZ2h0cyBpbiBJbmRpYW5hIHdhcyBu byBiaWcgZGVhbC4gIEUgdW5pdHMgb24gZnJlaWdodHMgaW4gUGVubnN5bHZhbmlhIHdhcyBhIGh1 Z2UgZGVhbC4gIE1hZGlzb24gSGlsbCBleGNlcHRlZCwgb2YgY291cnNlIQ0KDQoJLS0tLS1Pcmln aW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJvbTogUm9nZXIgUCBIZW5zbGV5IFttYWlsdG86cmhlbnNs ZXlfYW5kZXJzb25AanVuby5jb21dIA0KCVNlbnQ6IEZyaSA5LzEyLzIwMDMgNDoyOSBQTSANCglU bzogUFJSLVRhbGtAZHNvcC5jb20gDQoJQ2M6IA0KCVN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbUFJSXSBFLXVuaXRz IG9uIGZyZWlnaHRzDQoJDQoJDQoNCglPbiBteSBSYWlscm9hZHMgb2YgTWFkaXNvbiBDb3VudHkg d2ViIHNpdGUsIEkgaGF2ZSBhDQoJcGhvdG8gb2YgYSBOb3J0aGJvdW5kIFBSUiBmcmVpZ2h0IHB1 bGxlZCBieSBhbiBFLVVuaXQgYXMNCglpdCBjcm9zc2VkIEJyb2Fkd2F5IFN0cmVldCBpbiBBbmRl cnNvbiBJbmRpYW5hIGluIDE5NjUuDQoJVGhlIHBob3RvIGlzIHBvb3IsIGJ1dCBpdCBpcyBvYnZp b3VzbHkgYW4gRSB1bml0IGFuZCBJIHdpbGwNCgl0ZXN0aWZ5IHRoYXQgaXQgd2FzIGhhdWxpbmcg ZnJlaWdodCBhcyBJIHRvb2sgdGhlIHBob3RvLg0KCQ0KCVRoZXJlIHdhcyBhbm90aGVyIEkgdG9v ayBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIHNhbWUgc3VtbWVyLCBidXQNCglJIGhhdmUgbG9zdCB0aGF0IG9uZS4gVGhh dC4gdG9vIHdhcyBhIG5vcnRoYm91bmQgZnJlaWdodC4NCgkNCglSb2dlciBIZW5zbGV5IC0gS0M5 RUpJDQoJDQoJPT09IFJhaWxyb2FkcyBvZiBNYWRpc29uIENvdW50eSA9PT0NCgk9PT0gaHR0cDov L21hZGlzb25yYWlscy5yYWlsZmFuLm5ldC8gPT09DQoJDQoJLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCglGb3Ig YXNzaXN0YW5jZSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgbGlzdCwgcGxlYXNlIHZpc2l0IGh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5kc29w LmNvbS4NCgkNCg0K ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37B83.6E78AB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PE1FVEEgSFRUUC1FUVVJVj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBDT05URU5UPSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJz ZXQ9dXRmLTgiPgo8IURPQ1RZUEUgSFRNTCBQVUJMSUMgIi0vL1czQy8vRFREIEhUTUwgMy4yLy9F TiI+CjxIVE1MPgo8SEVBRD4KCjxNRVRBIE5BTUU9IkdlbmVyYXRvciIgQ09OVEVOVD0iTVMgRXhj aGFuZ2UgU2VydmVyIHZlcnNpb24gNi4wLjYzOTYuMCI+CjxUSVRMRT5SZTogW1BSUl0gRS11bml0 cyBvbiBmcmVpZ2h0czwvVElUTEU+CjwvSEVBRD4KPEJPRFkgZGlyPWx0cj4KPERJVj5PZmYgaGFu ZCBJIHdvdWxkIHNheSBFIHVuaXRzIG9uIGZyZWlnaHRzIGluIEluZGlhbmEgd2FzIG5vIGJpZyBk ZWFsLiZuYnNwOyAKRSB1bml0cyBvbiBmcmVpZ2h0cyBpbiBQZW5uc3lsdmFuaWEgd2FzIGEgaHVn ZSBkZWFsLiZuYnNwOyBNYWRpc29uIEhpbGwgCmV4Y2VwdGVkLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UhPC9ESVY+CjxC TE9DS1FVT1RFIGRpcj1sdHIgc3R5bGU9Ik1BUkdJTi1SSUdIVDogMHB4Ij4KICA8RElWPjxGT05U IHNpemU9Mj4tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSA8QlI+PEI+RnJvbTo8L0I+IFJvZ2Vy IFAgSGVuc2xleSAKICBbbWFpbHRvOnJoZW5zbGV5X2FuZGVyc29uQGp1bm8uY29tXSA8QlI+PEI+ U2VudDo8L0I+IEZyaSA5LzEyLzIwMDMgNDoyOSBQTSAKICA8QlI+PEI+VG86PC9CPiBQUlItVGFs a0Bkc29wLmNvbSA8QlI+PEI+Q2M6PC9CPiA8QlI+PEI+U3ViamVjdDo8L0I+IFJlOiBbUFJSXSAK ICBFLXVuaXRzIG9uIGZyZWlnaHRzPEJSPjxCUj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+CiAgPFA+PEZPTlQgc2l6 ZT0yPk9uIG15IFJhaWxyb2FkcyBvZiBNYWRpc29uIENvdW50eSB3ZWIgc2l0ZSwgSSBoYXZlIGE8 QlI+cGhvdG8gCiAgb2YgYSBOb3J0aGJvdW5kIFBSUiBmcmVpZ2h0IHB1bGxlZCBieSBhbiBFLVVu aXQgYXM8QlI+aXQgY3Jvc3NlZCBCcm9hZHdheSAKICBTdHJlZXQgaW4gQW5kZXJzb24gSW5kaWFu YSBpbiAxOTY1LjxCUj5UaGUgcGhvdG8gaXMgcG9vciwgYnV0IGl0IGlzIG9idmlvdXNseSAKICBh biBFIHVuaXQgYW5kIEkgd2lsbDxCUj50ZXN0aWZ5IHRoYXQgaXQgd2FzIGhhdWxpbmcgZnJlaWdo dCBhcyBJIHRvb2sgdGhlIAogIHBob3RvLjxCUj48QlI+VGhlcmUgd2FzIGFub3RoZXIgSSB0b29r IGR1cmluZyB0aGUgc2FtZSBzdW1tZXIsIGJ1dDxCUj5JIGhhdmUgCiAgbG9zdCB0aGF0IG9uZS4g VGhhdC4gdG9vIHdhcyBhIG5vcnRoYm91bmQgZnJlaWdodC48QlI+PEJSPlJvZ2VyIEhlbnNsZXkg LSAKICBLQzlFSkk8QlI+PEJSPj09PSBSYWlscm9hZHMgb2YgTWFkaXNvbiBDb3VudHkgPT09PEJS Pj09PSA8QSAKICBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vbWFkaXNvbnJhaWxzLnJhaWxmYW4ubmV0LyI+aHR0cDov L21hZGlzb25yYWlscy5yYWlsZmFuLm5ldC88L0E+IAogID09PTxCUj48QlI+LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS08QlI+Rm9yIAogIGFzc2lzdGFuY2Ugd2l0aCB0aGlzIGxpc3QsIHBsZWFzZSB2aXNpdCA8QSAK ICBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuZHNvcC5jb20iPmh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5kc29wLmNvbTwvQT4u PEJSPjwvRk9OVD48L1A+PC9CTE9DS1FVT1RFPgoKPC9CT0RZPgo8L0hUTUw+ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37B83.6E78AB00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:51:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] So much for DGLE >On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Bill Lane wrote: >> Check this out! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 >> >> What do the experts have to say about this? Rob replies: > >The PRR Ref# is consistent with the merger reumbering memo that Elden sent >me for my site. The memo makes mention that spray cans of Brunswick Green >were available to paint out the old PRR locomotive numbers before applying >new scotchlight decals... The memo's date 5/16/66. Based on this I'd say >that there's a decent chance that it's authentic.. But can the color of a >37 year old can of spray paint be trusted? Perhaps Krylon still has the >formulation! The memo also mentions Tuscan Red so maybe they made that too. AHA! So that explains it...I'm sure this was either part of a evil plot by the "NYC team" to confuse modelers of the PRR for years to come by implying DGLE was "green" or it was a clever ploy by the "PRR team" to distance themselves from the impending disaster !!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:17:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 3 axle passenger trucks Morgan Bilbo writes: "Pictures in Color Guide #1 on pages 6,7,8 do show the exact same 6 wheel trucks I have from the ECW kits. They are roller bearing. I can see no differences. Keep in mind, my eyes are 64 years old and need glasses. I also used a magnifying glass." Morgan, I'll beg to differ with you on this ...unless you have different ECW trucks than I do... I don't think you'll need a magnifying glass to see the difference. If you have a Bachman diner or combine, grab that to compare. Now, look between the outer and center axles. On the ECW truck, there is a large flat piece, shaped like this: \ \______/ / \________/ It forms a stubby "V" that is below the spring and that connects the journals. I believe this is known as a "drop equalizer". (Truck experts correct me here if I'm wrong please!). Now look at the photos your reference and the Bachman truck...its not there! What you see on the REAL 3D-P1 is a very small, thin "U" shape that is only as wide as the springs and connects the top frame to the support for the springs...I believe this is known as a "swing hanger". This is sort of there on the Bachman truck, but hidden behind the outside bearing support. In short, the Bachman truck is accurate, the ECW is not. I leave y'all to figure out how to get the Bachman truck. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:20:03 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1960's In a message dated 9/11/2003 3:50:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > Really, We need accurate K7a and K8 models (perhpas more > than we need a GP > hopper) AMEN!! After the N8 is out perhaps we can convince Lee to do the K7a (BLW is doing a K7a like car so other road names would be available for a Bowser K7a)and K8. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:41:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] crews from Conway to Ft. Wayne From: Frederick Ripley Hi All, In a 1974 "Trains" article about his experiences in the PC era on the Ft. Wayne line, John R. Crosby describes an interdivisional crew arrangement that he says began in the mid-60's, allowing specific crews to run from Conway-Ft. Wayne, without changing at Crestline. One would assume this applied to the truc-trains, NF-6, and several other hotshots. Does anyone have a list of trains for which this was the case? Also, the former Roundhouse Superintendent told me that there was a fuel rack, like the one at either end of the station, for mainline freights at the west end of the yard (really Leesville). This would have been very easy for WB freights to use, but perhaps EB trains that didn't have work to do used it also? Does anyone have more info about this? Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:42:43 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Herrs Island was [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in Yes, I remember Herr's Island well. The wind currents were generally up river but the odors did not carry far. Probably because of all the smell of coke, coal, iron, and petroleum products in the air. On a rare occassion you could smell the odors on Troy Hill (spent 4 years going to high school on top of the hill). My mother worked for Armours in the accounting Department on the island until they moved their facilities to Crafton. The primary cause of the stench was not the stock yards but Pittsburgh Rendering Company which processed unused portions of livestock, hides, and road kill dogs and cats picked up by the city. These items were used to make fertilizer and other products. Pittsburgh Rendering was the last company on the island remaining into the early 80's. Armours moved in the in 1970-71. When they moved Herr's Island closed as a livestock facility. Armour discontinued slaughtering in Pittsburgh and took delivery of sides of beef in refeers at the plant in Crafton near the old Rosslyn station. Rich Orr In a message dated 9/12/2003 11:33:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > Are there any Pittsburghers who remember Herr's Island when there was a > stock yard there? How far downwind did one have to get to get away from the > smell? Could you smell the yard up on Troy Hill? I don't ever remember a > stock yard stench in downtown Pittsburgh, but I suspect that is because the > prevailing wind is upriver and the smell would have been > carried up the > Allegheny. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:46:15 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Several years ago in one of the modeling magazines of the Keystone (not at home so I can't check which) there was an article about stock cars being used to ship tomatoes from Lancaster to Campbells. These cars came into Lancaster loaded with hogs and were loaded outbound (uncleaned as I recall) for Campbells. Rich Orr In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:52:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > Nice job combining the discussion of reefers and stock cars ! In fact I > believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to the > Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a > discussion of this > YEARS ago..need to check the archives. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:59:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: PRR light colors From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" OK gang. I have another paint question. I know painting has been beat to death, but I can't find the answer to this one in any of my saved e-mails or in the PRR guide to painting locomotives. I also think I know the answer but want someone to confirm. I ask because I am trying to do some detailing on my AAR 0-6-0. I think the lights on the pilot beam were painted black (The model engine does not come with marker or class lights). They look black in the few color photos I've looked at where they are clean. I think the lights on the tender deck were black also, but the brackets they sat on were the same color as the tender deck (The tender model came supplied only with the backup light). Smoke box lamp color eludes me, as I 've seen non color photos where they are clean. I suspect they were DGLE, but the engines in the color photos I have are very grimy and so everything is the same color. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:04:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Tenders on I1s Decapods From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I have data on over 250 photos of I-1 engines in an Excel spread sheet. Tenders are listed as 4-axle, 6-axle or 8-axle because I'm still not even remotely close to being an expert on tenders types. Available to anyone for the price of an e-mail. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] RE: Tenders on I1s Decapods >Date: Sun, 14 Sep, 2003, 9:11 > > All, is there a source of information for which tenders were attached to > which locomotive? I've read that the I1s' were built with 90F82 (90F75?) tenders > and were later reequipped on a random basis with larger tenders. I model the > early 1950s Buffalo Division. Thanks, Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:04:57 +0000 Rich Orr wrote: After the N8 is out perhaps we can convince Lee to do the K7a (BLW is doing a K7a like car so other road names would be available for a Bowser K7a) and K8. 1. Has anyone actually SEEN photos or test models of the BLI stock car to confirm that it's a Class K7 or K7A car? There are no photos on the Walthers website, and there is no mention of the model on the BLI website. 2. CLASS K7 AND K7A ARE UNIQUE TO THE PRR! The truss pattern of alternating diagonals on the Class X23 family of cars is unique, and very few roads (if any) copied the pattern. Furthermore, Class K7 and K7A aren't the same - Class K7 are single deck cars built new as stock cars, Class K7A are double deck cars rebuilt from taller Class X24 automobile cars after Class X31/X31A made them obsolete. Saying that other road names are available for this car because BLI is lettering cars for this is like saying that Penny had offset hoppers because Bev-Bel lettered Athearn twins and quads for PRR. 3. The good news: Class K8 isn't unique to the Pennsy. The bad news: We've only found one other road - L&N. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:08:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" If anyone has stock in Campbells, they better sell it before Rich's post gets out to the general public :-( Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: SUVCWORR@aol.com >To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's >Date: Mon, 15 Sep, 2003, 8:46 > > Several years ago in one of the modeling magazines of the Keystone (not at > home so I can't check which) there was an article about stock cars being > used to ship tomatoes from Lancaster to Campbells. These cars came into > Lancaster loaded with hogs and were loaded outbound (uncleaned as I recall) > for Campbells. > > Rich Orr > > > In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:52:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > >> Nice job combining the discussion of reefers and stock cars ! In fact I >> believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to the >> Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a >> discussion of this >> YEARS ago..need to check the archives. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars in Lancaster County Tomato Service Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:11:04 +0000 Rich orr wrote: Several years ago in one of the modeling magazines of the Keystone (not at home so I can't check which) there was an article about stock cars being used to ship tomatoes from Lancaster to Campbells. The article was written by Chuck Blardone for the Philadelphia Chapter, and tt's still online at the Society's website: http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Tomato.html Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars in Lancaster County Tomato Service Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:17:25 +0000 Don Harper wrote: If anyone has stock in Campbells, they better sell it before Rich's post gets out to the general public :-( If you read Chuck's article, you'll see that Rich is incorrect. The cars used during the harvest rush were in dedicated service and were cleaned, sprayed wth lime, and modified with extra platforms to carry more tomatoes. ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:12:41 -0400 Bill, I've lived in Kent County, DE (Felton, Magnolia) for 44 years. The only thing that hauled chickens since I've been here is trucks. Its an aroma you'll never forget on a hot, humid Delaware summer night!! Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:42:34 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car >Rich Orr wrote: >After the N8 is out perhaps we can convince Lee to do the K7a (BLW is >doing a K7a like car so other road names would be available for a Bowser K7a) >and K8. > >1. Has anyone actually SEEN photos or test models of the BLI stock car to >confirm that it's a Class K7 or K7A car? There are no photos on the Walthers >website, and there is no mention of the model on the BLI website. > >2. CLASS K7 AND K7A ARE UNIQUE TO THE PRR! The truss pattern of alternating >diagonals on the Class X23 family of cars is unique, and very few roads (if >any) copied the pattern. Furthermore, Class K7 and K7A aren't the same - >Class K7 are single deck cars built new as stock cars, Class K7A are double >deck cars rebuilt from taller Class X24 automobile cars after Class X31/X31A >made them obsolete. Saying that other road names are available for this car >because BLI is lettering cars for this is like saying that Penny had offset >hoppers because Bev-Bel lettered Athearn twins and quads for PRR. > >3. The good news: Class K8 isn't unique to the Pennsy. The bad news: We've >only found one other road - L&N. > > >Ben Hom Charlie Vlk emailed me to tell me that "The drawing on the Broadway Limited brochure shows a PRR class K7a." So far, there is nothing on the BLI web page. I mean, if its really a K7a that great, but at $100 a pop, I'm not going to be buying. (Well, OK, I might buy 1, dissassemble it, make molds and cast myself a bunch...no, I didn't say that, really ) As for the multiple roads...I'm ambivalent...without that we will NEVER get a mass produced K7a or K8. On the other hand, thousands of modelers will buy a car that is decorated for an incorrect road, only to find out later that it is wrong. I'm not sure that builds the kind of reputation that BLI is seeking (can you say Lionel). A compromise would be the blue box/red box, P2K vs P1.5K idea. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:18:22 +0000 Bruce Smith wrote: "Charlie Vlk emailed me to tell me that "The drawing on the Broadway Limited brochure shows a PRR class K7a." So far, there is nothing on the BLI web page." Better than nothing, I guess. A model photo would be a much better thing to have before we pass judgment on the accuracy of the model itself. "I mean, if its really a K7a that great, but at $100 a pop, I'm not going to be buying. (Well, OK, I might buy 1, disassemble it, make molds and cast myself a bunch...no, I didn't say that, really )" Ah - the Funaro method of Milk Car manufacturing! "As for the multiple roads...I'm ambivalent...without that we will NEVER get a mass produced K7a or K8. On the other hand, thousands of modelers will buy a car that is decorated for an incorrect road, only to find out later that it is wrong. I'm not sure that builds the kind of reputation that BLI is seeking (can you say Lionel). A compromise would be the blue box/red box, P2K vs. P1.5K idea." I'd have less of a problem with the multiple roadnames IF we were talking about a model such as the Accurail GN stock car or Canton hopper, where the modeler is only spending $8-$12. But a $99 stand-in model? I think most of us here are in agreement that $99 is too much for Pennsy modelers who need a string of these cars, much less for an inaccurate stand-in, albeit one that moos and oinks. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:31:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car From: Jerry Britton On Monday, September 15, 2003, at 11:18 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > I'd have less of a problem with the multiple roadnames IF we were > talking > about a model such as the Accurail GN stock car or Canton hopper, > where the > modeler is only spending $8-$12. But a $99 stand-in model? I think > most of > us here are in agreement that $99 is too much for Pennsy modelers who > need a > string of these cars, much less for an inaccurate stand-in, albeit one > that > moos and oinks. Since dealers, myself included, have not yet received a formal announcement, perhaps we should hold off on judgment. $100 per car is steep, but perhaps not if you want the sound. BLI "could" have a winner if they offered six-packs of this car, without sound -- as they are with the N&W hoppers -- if they are indeed a PRR prototype. If that's not part of their plan, perhaps they could be convinced to run the car in six packs of PRR without sound. Price should be attractive and it obviously would meet a pent-up demand. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:03:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors The posts on stock cars and Herr's Island reminded me of the many very distinctive aromas and odors associated with railroading, especially back in the steam days. List follows - what have I missed? 1. Roundhouses - mixture of valve oil, coal smoke, and steam 2. Stockyard - especially after the arrival of a trainload of calves on a hot day (phew!) 3. Inside of box cars that have carried grain 4. Piles of fresh cut lumber - used to play on them as a kid 5. Brake shoe smoke at the bottom of a long hill 6. The inside of passenger cars, especially sleepers, when you first got on for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's. 7. Crude oil & refineries 8. Diesel fuel 9. The inside of steam locomotive cabs, especially with the firedoors open I'm surelare many others. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:03:13 -0400 The posts on stock cars and Herr's Island reminded me of the many very distinctive aromas and odors associated with railroading, especially back in the steam days. List follows - what have I missed? 1. Roundhouses - mixture of valve oil, coal smoke, and steam 2. Stockyard - especially after the arrival of a trainload of calves on a hot day (phew!) 3. Inside of box cars that have carried grain 4. Piles of fresh cut lumber - used to play on them as a kid 5. Brake shoe smoke at the bottom of a long hill 6. The inside of passenger cars, especially sleepers, when you first got on for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's. 7. Crude oil & refineries 8. Diesel fuel 9. The inside of steam locomotive cabs, especially with the firedoors open I'm surelare many others. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] So much for DGLE Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:51:03 +0000 I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination BUT if that can truly is 37 years old that dates it to 1966. Somehow I can't picture the PRR assigning 50 guys with spray cans to paint an engine (especially in 1966!). Nor can I picture a stock item in the stores for touching up dings and scratches. My educated guess would be it was designed for modelers in leiu of using an airbrush for finishing and has nothing to do with the PRR. The PRR ID and brunswick green was for identifying the color on the shelf of a hobby shop. > >On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Bill Lane wrote: > >> Check this out! > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 > >> > >> What do the experts have to say about this? > > Rob replies: > > > >The PRR Ref# is consistent with the merger reumbering memo that Elden sent > >me for my site. The memo makes mention that spray cans of Brunswick Green > >were available to paint out the old PRR locomotive numbers before applying > >new scotchlight decals... The memo's date 5/16/66. Based on this I'd say > >that there's a decent chance that it's authentic.. But can the color of a > >37 year old can of spray paint be trusted? Perhaps Krylon still has the > >formulation! The memo also mentions Tuscan Red so maybe they made that too. > > AHA! So that explains it...I'm sure this was either part of a evil plot by > the "NYC team" to confuse modelers of the PRR for years to come by implying > DGLE was "green" or it was a clever ploy by the "PRR team" to distance > themselves from the impending disaster !!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:09:01 -0400 >article about stock cars being used to ship tomatoes from Lancaster to Campbells. These cars came into Lancaster loaded with hogs and were loaded outbound (uncleaned as I recall) for Campbells. > So much for enjoying tomato soup for lunch! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Bill, The Cabin Car Smell! Heating Oil and Fresh Brewed Coffee! Mmmm. Once I built an O Scale N5b and sprinkled keroseen in the interior. You got the affect when the roof was removed showing the details, although it was missing the java smell.....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:11:11 -0400 List, Prior to World War II, there were poultry cars on the US railroads and there used to be a website with a history of the cars and lots of photos. I had it bookmarked but it's no longer there. Each car had an attendant that rode in a little "sentry box" arrangement by the doors. Ambroid made a model in HO and American Brass of Columbia, SC, made a brass kit in N scale. Whether or not these were used on the DelMarVa I can't say. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Morrow" To: Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:12 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva > Bill, > I've lived in Kent County, DE (Felton, Magnolia) for 44 years. The only > thing that hauled chickens since I've been here is trucks. Its an aroma > you'll never forget on a hot, humid Delaware summer night!! > > Mike Morrow > PRRT&HS #6703 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:14:20 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: "Since dealers, myself included, have not yet received a formal announcement, perhaps we should hold off on judgment. $100 per car is steep, but perhaps not if you want the sound." The $99 price quote is from the Walthers website, which is already set up to take reservations for these cars. "BLI "could" have a winner if they offered six-packs of this car, without sound -- as they are with the N&W hoppers -- if they are indeed a PRR prototype." I agree - it comes out to about $25 per Class H2A in those six-packs, which is more than reasonable for an assembled accurate hopper model with separate grabs. "If that's not part of their plan, perhaps they could be convinced to run the car in six packs of PRR without sound. Price should be attractive and it obviously would meet a pent-up demand." This like a 4-unit covered wagon lash-up - you don't need sound in all four units, just the B units. It you want a cut of stock cars with sound, not every car will need sound to get the desired effect. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:17:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] IM N Scale F3 Test Shots From: Jerry Britton Gang: Here's a URL to a pic of some test shots of the newly announced InterMountain N scale F3.... http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/Chicago-Show/chicago1/imf3.JPG Remember, they are currently not making a PRR version because of the number boards. Even though the PRR alone purchased 8% of all F3's built, they had the small number boards and IM (supposedly) stated that there wouldn't be enough demand to justify creating a small number board version. Yikes! IM is calling this a Phase II. Since the fans appear to be modular, we can't tell if this is an "early" Phase II (high fans), "late" Phase II (low fans), or if both would be offered eventually. I'm noting that it looks -- can't confirm -- like there is no chicken wire between the port holes. According to descriptions I got from Greg Martin (see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/spotting_f.ws4d ), that would make this a Phase III, not a Phase II. FWIW, the new Kato F3 is a Phase I. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] So much for DGLE Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:17 -0400 Not for painting an entire engine, just for painting out the old loco numbers for the renumbering! The PRR memo even mentions 16 oz. spray cans... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > ndbprr@att.net > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:51 AM > To: PRR-Talk; Bruce F. Smith > Subject: RE: [PRR] So much for DGLE > > > I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination BUT if that > can truly is > 37 years old that dates it to 1966. Somehow I can't picture the PRR > assigning 50 guys with spray cans to paint an engine (especially > in 1966!). > Nor can I picture a stock item in the stores for touching up dings and > scratches. My educated guess would be it was designed for > modelers in leiu > of using an airbrush for finishing and has nothing to do with the > PRR. The > PRR ID and brunswick green was for identifying the color on the > shelf of a > hobby shop. > > >On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Bill Lane wrote: > > >> Check this out! > > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 > > >> > > >> What do the experts have to say about this? > > > > Rob replies: > > > > > >The PRR Ref# is consistent with the merger reumbering memo > that Elden sent > > >me for my site. The memo makes mention that spray cans of > Brunswick Green > > >were available to paint out the old PRR locomotive numbers > before applying > > >new scotchlight decals... The memo's date 5/16/66. Based on > this I'd say > > >that there's a decent chance that it's authentic.. But can > the color of a > > >37 year old can of spray paint be trusted? Perhaps Krylon > still has the > > >formulation! The memo also mentions Tuscan Red so maybe they > made that too. > > > > AHA! So that explains it...I'm sure this was either part of a > evil plot by > > the "NYC team" to confuse modelers of the PRR for years to come > by implying > > DGLE was "green" or it was a clever ploy by the "PRR team" to distance > > themselves from the impending disaster !!! > > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - > Benjamin Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ > __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Prior to World War II, there were poultry cars > on the US railroads... Make that "during and maybe shortly after" As I've mentioned before, I lived about 50 feet from the main line in Latrobe, PA, 1938 to 1948. I saw a few, very few, poultry cars pass through in that time. Never more than one in a train. One thing I'm still puzzled about; given the number of chicken feathers which blew around the car, did the chickens have any feathers left by the time the car got to wherever it was going? (Yes, 1938 was before WW2, but I suspect my memories are from a few years later.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers SW Switchers For Sale Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:42:18 -0400 I have two Walthers HO Pennsy SW-1 switchers for sale; #5993 and #5987. Both are new in the box (still shrink wrapped) and in mint condition. Each unit contains the u-joint retro kit to improve slow speed operation. Price is $53.50 each including shipping to lower 48 states. A picture of a unit can be viewed at www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/wkwprrsw.jpg Please contact me directly if interested. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:45:35 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37BA8.C9630134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBzZWVtIHRvIHJlY2FsbCB5ZWFycyBhZ28gc29tZW9uZSB0ZWxsaW5nIG1lIHRoYXQgaGUgd2Fz IHJpZGluZyBpbiB0aGUgY2FiIG9mIGFuIEUtNyBvciBFLTggYWNyb3NzIHRoZSBmbGF0bGFuZHMg b2YgSW5kaWFuYSBhbmQgdGhlIHRyYWluIHN0cnVjayBhIHBvdWx0cnkgdHJ1Y2sgYXQgYSBncmFk ZSBjcm9zc2luZy4NCiANCkhlIHNhaWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgaW5zaWRlIG9mIHRoZSBjYWIgKHRoZSB3 aW5kb3dzIHdlcmUgb3BlbiBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIGhhZCBtb3JlIGZlYXRoZXJzIHRoYW4geW91IGNv dWxkIGV2ZXIgaW1hZ2luZS4gIFRoZSBjcmV3IHdhcyBsaXRlcmFsbHkgcGlja2luZyBjaGlja2Vu IGZlYXRoZXJzIG91dCBvZiB0aGVpciB0ZWV0aC4NCiANCkJpbGwgVi4gKEhpc3RvcmlhbiA0dGgg Q2xhc3MpDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBHcmVnZyBNYWhs a292IFttYWlsdG86bWFobGtvdkBndGNvbS5uZXRdIA0KCVNlbnQ6IE1vbiA5LzE1LzIwMDMgMTE6 MTEgQU0gDQoJVG86IE1pa2UgTW9ycm93OyBQUlItdGFsa0Bkc29wLmNvbSANCglDYzogDQoJU3Vi amVjdDogUmU6IFtQUlJdIFJlOiBQb3VsdHJ5IG9uIERlbGFtcnZhDQoJDQoJDQoNCglMaXN0LA0K CQ0KCVByaW9yIHRvIFdvcmxkIFdhciBJSSwgdGhlcmUgd2VyZSBwb3VsdHJ5IGNhcnMgb24gdGhl IFVTIHJhaWxyb2FkcyBhbmQgdGhlcmUNCgl1c2VkIHRvIGJlIGEgd2Vic2l0ZSB3aXRoIGEgaGlz dG9yeSBvZiB0aGUgY2FycyBhbmQgbG90cyBvZiBwaG90b3MuIEkgaGFkIGl0DQoJYm9va21hcmtl ZCBidXQgaXQncyBubyBsb25nZXIgdGhlcmUuIEVhY2ggY2FyIGhhZCBhbiBhdHRlbmRhbnQgdGhh dCByb2RlIGluDQoJYSBsaXR0bGUgInNlbnRyeSBib3giIGFycmFuZ2VtZW50IGJ5IHRoZSBkb29y cy4gQW1icm9pZCBtYWRlIGEgbW9kZWwgaW4gSE8NCglhbmQgQW1lcmljYW4gQnJhc3Mgb2YgQ29s dW1iaWEsIFNDLCBtYWRlIGEgYnJhc3Mga2l0IGluIE4gc2NhbGUuDQoJDQoJV2hldGhlciBvciBu b3QgdGhlc2Ugd2VyZSB1c2VkIG9uIHRoZSBEZWxNYXJWYSBJIGNhbid0IHNheS4NCgkNCglHcmVn ZyBNYWhsa292DQoJDQoJDQoJLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQ0KCUZyb206ICJN aWtlIE1vcnJvdyIgPG1vcnJvdzRAYmVsbGF0bGFudGljLm5ldD4NCglUbzogPFBSUi10YWxrQGRz b3AuY29tPg0KCVNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE1LCAyMDAzIDEwOjEyIEFNDQoJU3Vi amVjdDogW1BSUl0gUmU6IFBvdWx0cnkgb24gRGVsYW1ydmENCgkNCgkNCgk+IEJpbGwsDQoJPiBJ J3ZlIGxpdmVkIGluIEtlbnQgQ291bnR5LCBERSAoRmVsdG9uLCBNYWdub2xpYSkgZm9yIDQ0IHll YXJzLiBUaGUgb25seQ0KCT4gdGhpbmcgdGhhdCBoYXVsZWQgY2hpY2tlbnMgc2luY2UgSSd2ZSBi ZWVuIGhlcmUgaXMgdHJ1Y2tzLiBJdHMgYW4gYXJvbWENCgk+IHlvdSdsbCBuZXZlciBmb3JnZXQg b24gYSBob3QsIGh1bWlkIERlbGF3YXJlIHN1bW1lciBuaWdodCEhDQoJPg0KCT4gTWlrZSBNb3Jy b3cNCgk+IFBSUlQmSFMgIzY3MDMNCgk+DQoJPg0KCT4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCgk+IEZvciBh c3Npc3RhbmNlIHdpdGggdGhpcyBsaXN0LCBwbGVhc2UgdmlzaXQgaHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLmRzb3Au Y29tLg0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoJRm9yIGFzc2lzdGFuY2Ugd2l0aCB0aGlz IGxpc3QsIHBsZWFzZSB2aXNpdCBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuZHNvcC5jb20uDQoJDQoNCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37BA8.C9630134 Content-Type: text/html; 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From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] For Sale - NEB&W Open Top Car Guide Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:56:46 -0400 I have for sale a mint copy of the 342 page NEB&W Guide to Steam Era Freight Car Modeling Part B - Open Top Cars by John Nehrich. This copy is the revised 1995 reprint telling you everything you want to know about prototype open hoppers, covered hoppers, flats and gons and closet HO kits commercially available in 1995. Loaded with prototype pictures. Price is $15.00 including Media Mail to lower 48 states. Insurance would be extra. Please contact me directly if interested. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:23:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva Gents, Yessir, poultry cars actually did exist, even into the post-WW2 era. Aside from the models mentioned, the car is still available in S scale from lehigh Valley Models, and may be available from Huff & Puff in HO. I once had one of the Ambroid cars, and it was actually a rather nice model. It was just one of those oddball cars I couldn't really justify on my layout. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Poultry on Delamrva Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:43:31 +0000 Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Prior to World War II, there were poultry cars on the US railroads and there used to be a website with a history of the cars and lots of photos. I had it bookmarked but it's no longer there. Each car had an attendant that rode in a little "sentry box" arrangement by the doors. Ambroid made a model in HO and American Brass of Columbia, SC, made a brass kit in N scale. John Nehrich has a section on poultry cars on the pay side of the NEB&W website, including a number of builder's photos and two train photos. http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Stock-cars/95-2-Stock-Poultry.asp BTW, Bachmann did a poutry car in HO. It's a 40 ft car; however, all of the prototypes that I could track down were 36 ft cars. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Looking for copies of early PRR Form 109's Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:54:42 -0400 Hi all, I know this is a million to one shot, but does anyone on the list have a copy of Classification of Locomotives, PRR Form 109 revision A, B, or E? E is probably dated around 1912 and A & B are 1900 or before... I'd really like to get copies of these for my web site (http://prr.railfan.net) I'll gladly pay copying costs or can trade for copies of other issues... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:53:31 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] IM N Scale F3 Test Shots All, The sample show the F-3 phase 2 with out the chicken wire applies which I would guess they are planning to use etched metal for. MOre that just the numberboard issues there is an issue with the pilots that would need to be changed. But, this would not be a problem if in N Scale someone would make the number board and pilot in either white metal or resin. Of course there would be no way to have the numberboards lights. Rmember there are two versons of streamlined numberboards one for the three digit boards and one for the four digit boards. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] stock cars under $99.00 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:04:38 +0000 Fred Freitas wrote: The kit builders on the List may want to try Jays trains web site to seek out some of the Ambroid stock car kits. These can be upgraded by adding evergreen strips for the steel bracing, and there are enough newer detailing parts to build very respectable K7/8 types. You mean the Ambroid K-2 "generic" stock car? http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Kits/Other-kits/Ambroid-stock-car- builtup-undec.jpg It looks very similar to Class K8, but it also looks too tall. Besides, if you're willing to use an Ambroid kit, why not go all the way and scratchbulid the car from styrene to the correct dimensions? Bob Hundman had a three-part series on scratchbilding a C&BQ stock car in the October 1991, November 1991, and January 1992 issues of Mainline Modeler where you'll find some great techniques should you choose to go this route. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:21:56 -0400 Creosote and honey suckle while walking track. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:21:56 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Creosote and honey suckle while walking track. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:49:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/15/03 --part1_103.35f43fe6.2c9763cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: $99 stock car w/sound. That's a bunch of money and I'll be they don't even come with a prototypical odor. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. Bob Martin --part1_103.35f43fe6.2c9763cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: $99 stock car w= /sound. That's a bunch of money and I'll be they don't even come with=20= a prototypical odor. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

Bob Martin --part1_103.35f43fe6.2c9763cb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:59:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/15/03 From: Jerry Britton On Monday, September 15, 2003, at 02:49 PM, Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > Re: =A0$99 stock car w/sound. =A0That's a bunch of money and I'll be = they=20 > don't even come with a prototypical odor. =A0Sorry guys, I couldn't=20 > resist. The "odor" can be arranged! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:13:26 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] stock cars under $99.00 It also has truss rods! Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= b.hom@att.net wrote: > Fred Freitas wrote: > The kit builders on the List may want to try Jays trains web site to seek > out some of the Ambroid stock car kits. These can be upgraded by adding > evergreen strips for the steel bracing, and there are enough newer detailing > parts to build very respectable K7/8 types. > > You mean the Ambroid K-2 "generic" stock car? > http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Kits/Other-kits/Ambroid-stock-car- > builtup-undec.jpg > > It looks very similar to Class K8, but it also looks too tall. Besides, if > you're willing to use an Ambroid kit, why not go all the way and scratchbulid > the car from styrene to the correct dimensions? Bob Hundman had a three-part > series on scratchbilding a C&BQ stock car in the October 1991, November 1991, > and January 1992 issues of Mainline Modeler where you'll find some great > techniques should you choose to go this route. > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:34:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Sheila Peckham Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Re: Thomas Brown, Stationmaster, Pittsburgh 1920, 1930 --0-1206758798-1063654481=:97440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii PRR-Talk wrote: From: "PRR-Talk" To: Subject: Re: Thomas Brown, Stationmaster, Pittsburgh 1920, 1930 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:32:30 -0400 > >Looking for info on a Thomas Brown who lived on Kelly St, Pittsburgh and >who was a stationmaster for the Penn Railroad according to 1920 and 1930 >census records. Any and all info appreciated. > >Sheila Peckham >sheilap50@earthlink.net > > > Your message could not be processed because you are not allowed to post messages to the PRR-Talk list. For more information, you can contact the list administrator at: Listmaster --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1206758798-1063654481=:97440 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com> wrote:

From: "PRR-Talk"
To:
Subject: Re: Thomas Brown, Stationmaster, Pittsburgh 1920, 1930
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:32:30 -0400

>
>Looking for info on a Thomas Brown who lived on Kelly St, Pittsburgh and
>who was a stationmaster for the Penn Railroad according to 1920 and 1930
>census records. Any and all info appreciated.
>
>Sheila Peckham
>sheilap50@earthlink.net
>
>
>

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messages to the PRR-Talk list.

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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1206758798-1063654481=:97440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/15/03 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:43:56 -0400 I assume it will have critters inside otherwise it will seem a little = funny to have an empty car making all that noise! And speaking of smell, remember that company that offered odors for your layout including coal smoke and pine forests? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:00 PM To: Cprrboss@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/15/03 On Monday, September 15, 2003, at 02:49 PM, Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > Re: =A0$99 stock car w/sound. =A0That's a bunch of money and I'll be = they=20 > don't even come with a prototypical odor. =A0Sorry guys, I couldn't=20 > resist. The "odor" can be arranged! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:57:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE DGLE is just that , the PRR's term for the color they desired their locomotives to be painted. My families business was started in 1931. We used to paint our trucks Lowry Green made by Dupont. It matched perfectly the Brunswick Green made by MAB which by the way was headquartered in Phila. I still have an unopened gallon of MAB Brunswick green by the way. Krylon was started in the Norristown Pa. area in the early 50's and was the first successfull commercial offering of paint in spray cans. Therefore it makes sense that Krylon would be in a position and location to offer the PRR a touch up version of their DGLE. Whether or nor the PRR called the color Brunswick makes no matter. In official documents it was called DGLE and all manufacturers were expected to match the color with whatever named paint they made be it Brunswick, Lowry or Sherman . ---------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:26:17 -0400 I'm not sure about the above mentioned can of Krylon, but I sure do wish I could go to hardware store and but some new stuff. Phil P ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/15/03 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:35:43 -0400 At a lot of the model railroad sessions & shows I've been to, there was already plenty of odor. No more needed, thank you. :-o Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:49 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/15/03 > Re: $99 stock car w/sound. That's a bunch of money and I'll be they don't > even come with a prototypical odor. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. > > Bob Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:05:23 GMT Subject: [PRR] FA-2; FB-2 From: PennsyRRfan Hi to all! Does anyone know of any pictures of FA-2's and/or FB-2's available on the internet? Thanks in advance, Paul Paul R. Greenwald PRRT&HS 1802 Phila Chapter 2009 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chicago Terminal Chapter Outing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:20:18 +0000 We in Chicago have an outing this Saturday that is open to anyone who will be in the area. We will spend the day starting in Hammond at the Amtrak station at 8:30AM and explore the branch lines around Colehour yard before heading east along the Ft Wayne mainline toward Valpo. E mail me if you would like to attend and need some directions. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] ebay spray can of DGLE Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:08:44 -0400 wrote: Nor can I picture a stock item in the stores for touching up dings and scratches. My educated guess would be it was designed for modelers in leiu of using an airbrush for finishing and has nothing to do with the PRR. Looking at this can, it has the "air of authenticity" to it, I believe it's the real deal. However, you'll probably have to drill a hole in the can to get the paint out (if it hasn't solidified), as I can't imagine there will be any propellant left in it after sitting around half empty since the mid-60's. Might be good for a laugh as a workbench prop... Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:09:34 -0400 Haven't been shipments by rail to the Campbell's plant in Camden in decades. Can't do it now because there is no plant. Can't be any worse than the loads on open trucks from the farms traveling the roads to Camden and the streets of Camden. Either way, cooked before canning and after. So most of the stuff would be dead, and if not, builds the immune system. Tom Mahon -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Donald E. Harper, Jr Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:08 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's If anyone has stock in Campbells, they better sell it before Rich's post gets out to the general public :-( Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: SUVCWORR@aol.com >To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers, Stock, Meat, on PRR Trains in the 1950's and 1 960's >Date: Mon, 15 Sep, 2003, 8:46 > > Several years ago in one of the modeling magazines of the Keystone (not at > home so I can't check which) there was an article about stock cars being > used to ship tomatoes from Lancaster to Campbells. These cars came into > Lancaster loaded with hogs and were loaded outbound (uncleaned as I recall) > for Campbells. > > Rich Orr > > > In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:52:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > >> Nice job combining the discussion of reefers and stock cars ! In fact I >> believe that reefers were also used in the N.J. tomato traffic to the >> Campbells plant (in Cherry Hill?). IIRC there was a >> discussion of this >> YEARS ago..need to check the archives. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FS & wanted - 'Train Talks' pamphlets Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:23:42 -0400 Hi all, I've been gather up Train Talks pamphlets for my website. They were small pamphlets put out by the PRR for passengers etc... I have a bunch of duplicates that I'd like to sell. E-mail me off the list if you're interested and I'll send a list of the dupes I have. I'm also looking for issues that I don't already have. I'm willing to buy/trade or borrow any issues so I can scan them. Also if you have any info on what years this pamphlet was published and how many were put out, please let me know! The issues I have are online at http://prr.railfan.net/documents Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: [PRR] Cattle/Bovines and smell Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:42:34 -0500 I hate to tell you guys, but for $99, that car should be painted, lettered, Kadee couplers, good sprung trucks, smell, cattle or pigs/bovines and everything else a good cattle car should have. Anything less is what causes me to not even consider buying such stuff. Now a six pack at $25 each w/o sound, smell or cattle/bovines might be worth considering. Like someone else has stated, you only need one or two cars with sound, the rest can be faked. I distinctly remember hearing a 5 unit diesel go by with 2 sound units. >From the aisle about 3 feet away you couldn't tell the difference. Just my two cents worth. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:19:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors --part1_11e.2582cf96.2c97a303_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/15/03 11:56:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > 6. The inside of passenger cars, especially sleepers, when you first got > on > for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's. > Please enlighten those of us too young to know.... what were the characteristics of the aromas inside a passenger car in the 1940's and 50's? Thanks, Chris Baker #1918 --part1_11e.2582cf96.2c97a303_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/15/03 11:56:05 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes:

6. The inside of passenge= r cars, especially sleepers, when you first got on
for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's.

Please enlighten those of us too young to know.... what were the chara= cteristics of the aromas inside a passenger car in the 1940's and 50's?

Thanks,
Chris Baker #1918 --part1_11e.2582cf96.2c97a303_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:25:28 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05FD_01C37BA5.F9BAE020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember a strong cigar smell in P70s in the early 1960s. Pullmans = could be pretty musty. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: wbigler@stny.rr.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors In a message dated 9/15/03 11:56:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: 6. The inside of passenger cars, especially sleepers, when you = first got on for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's. Please enlighten those of us too young to know.... what were the = characteristics of the aromas inside a passenger car in the 1940's and = 50's? Thanks, Chris Baker #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_05FD_01C37BA5.F9BAE020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I remember a strong cigar smell in P70s in the early = 1960s. Pullmans could be pretty musty.

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com

To: wbigler@stny.rr.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 ; PRR@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, September 15, = 2003 4:19=20 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad = "Aromas" and=20 Odors

In a message dated 9/15/03 11:56:05 AM Eastern = Daylight=20 Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com=20 writes:

6. The inside of passenger cars, especially = sleepers, when=20 you first got on
for a trip, especially back in the '40's and=20 '50's.

Please enlighten those of us too young = to=20 know.... what were the characteristics of the aromas inside a = passenger=20 car in the 1940's and 50's?

Thanks,
Chris Baker = #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_05FD_01C37BA5.F9BAE020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:05:41 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] So much for DGLE Guz, this is ligit. I worked in the Juniata Locomotive Shops in 1965 with the painter. He had Krylon Spray cans of Brunswick Green, Tuscan, Black, and Gray. At this time there were paints from PPG, Dupont, Sherwin Williams, and Krylon in the paint storage locker. And NO they didn't assign 50 guys to paint a locomotive with spray cans. The painter and his helper (me) were to only people allowed to apply paint to a locomotive. Shop rules & Union Contract. The cans were used to apply touch up where and when needed. Garry Spear ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination BUT if that can truly is > 37 years old that dates it to 1966. Somehow I can't picture the PRR > assigning 50 guys with spray cans to paint an engine (especially in 1966!). > Nor can I picture a stock item in the stores for touching up dings and > scratches. My educated guess would be it was designed for modelers in leiu > of using an airbrush for finishing and has nothing to do with the PRR. The > PRR ID and brunswick green was for identifying the color on the shelf of a > hobby shop. > >>>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Bill Lane wrote: >>> >>>>Check this out! >>>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3552011626 >>>> >>>>What do the experts have to say about this? >> >>Rob replies: >> >>>The PRR Ref# is consistent with the merger reumbering memo that Elden sent >>>me for my site. The memo makes mention that spray cans of Brunswick Green >>>were available to paint out the old PRR locomotive numbers before applying >>>new scotchlight decals... The memo's date 5/16/66. Based on this I'd say >>>that there's a decent chance that it's authentic.. But can the color of a >>>37 year old can of spray paint be trusted? Perhaps Krylon still has the >>>formulation! The memo also mentions Tuscan Red so maybe they made that too. >> >>AHA! So that explains it...I'm sure this was either part of a evil plot by >>the "NYC team" to confuse modelers of the PRR for years to come by implying >>DGLE was "green" or it was a clever ploy by the "PRR team" to distance >>themselves from the impending disaster !!! >> > > >>Happy Rails >>Bruce >> >>Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >>Scott-Ritchey Research Center >>334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >>http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >> >>"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin >> __ >> / \ >> __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ >> |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | >> | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| >> |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| >> | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 >> >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:24:38 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors > 6. The inside of passenger cars, especially sleepers, when you first got > on > for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's. > Please enlighten those of us too young to know.... what were the characteristics of the aromas inside a passenger car in the 1940's and 50's? Thanks, Chris Baker #1918 ------------------- Boy oh boy, it would be tough for me to describe a smell, but I 'd sure know it if I smelled it again. I think it was more of a brew of odors, of what I can't say. Possibly air conditioning, something they cleaned the carpets with, hard for me to say. I know I don't catch it on Amtrak. But I recall it even on a pair of modernized GN heavyweight coachs spotted at freight interchange, strangely enough. I wandered inside and smelled it even there. That was circa 1960. Another long missed odor is the smell of a passenger diesel, particularly E units it seems, when you walked past them at a stub depot. Again, Amtrak smells different. And how about the odor of leaking steam lines on a cold night when you crossed from car to car? For that matter, just walking along the track on a hot summer day. The creosote and oil is hard to miss. And one I can't mistake is that of anthracite. You could (can) walk down a street in Philley, say, and catch a whiff coming from someone's house now and again in the winter, from an auxilliary heating stove. Much nicer smell than soft coal, to my way of smelling anyway. Oh well, it all smells better than most of my cooking attempts. Regards, Barry Peltier [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:24:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors --part1_1c9.f132e22.2c97b246_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 6. The inside of passenger cars, especially sleepers, when you first got > on > for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's. > Please enlighten those of us too young to know.... what were the characteristics of the aromas inside a passenger car in the 1940's and 50's? Thanks, Chris Baker #1918 ------------------- Boy oh boy, it would be tough for me to describe a smell, but I 'd sure know it if I smelled it again. I think it was more of a brew of odors, of what I can't say. Possibly air conditioning, something they cleaned the carpets with, hard for me to say. I know I don't catch it on Amtrak. But I recall it even on a pair of modernized GN heavyweight coachs spotted at freight interchange, strangely enough. I wandered inside and smelled it even there. That was circa 1960. Another long missed odor is the smell of a passenger diesel, particularly E units it seems, when you walked past them at a stub depot. Again, Amtrak smells different. And how about the odor of leaking steam lines on a cold night when you crossed from car to car? For that matter, just walking along the track on a hot summer day. The creosote and oil is hard to miss. And one I can't mistake is that of anthracite. You could (can) walk down a street in Philley, say, and catch a whiff coming from someone's house now and again in the winter, from an auxilliary heating stove. Much nicer smell than soft coal, to my way of smelling anyway. Oh well, it all smells better than most of my cooking attempts. Regards, Barry Peltier --part1_1c9.f132e22.2c97b246_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

6. The inside of passenge= r cars, especially sleepers, when you first got on
for a trip, especially back in the '40's and '50's.

Please enlighten those of us too young to know.... what were the chara= cteristics of the aromas inside a passenger car in the 1940's and 50's?

Thanks,
Chris Baker #1918=20
-------------------
Boy oh boy, it would be tough for me to describe a smell, but I 'd sure know= it if I smelled it again. I think it was more of a brew of odors, of=20= what I can't say. Possibly air conditioning, something they cleaned the carp= ets with, hard for me to say. I know I don't catch it on Amtrak. But I= recall it even on a pair of modernized GN heavyweight coachs spotted at fre= ight interchange, strangely enough. I wandered inside and smelled it even th= ere. That was circa 1960.
Another long missed odor is the smell o= f a passenger diesel, particularly E units it seems, when you walked past th= em at a stub depot. Again, Amtrak smells different. And how about the odor o= f leaking steam lines on a cold night when you crossed from car to car? For=20= that matter, just walking along the track on a hot summer day. The creosote=20= and oil is hard to miss. And one I can't mistake is that of anthracite. You=20= could (can) walk down a street in Philley, say, and catch a whiff coming fro= m someone's house now and again in the winter, from an auxilliary heating st= ove. Much nicer smell than soft coal, to my way of smelling anyway.
Oh well, it all smells better than most of my cooking attempts.
Regards,
Barry Peltier --part1_1c9.f132e22.2c97b246_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:35:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars in Lancaster County Tomato Service --part1_23.34c42928.2c97b4d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/15/2003 10:27:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, b.hom@att.net writes: > If you read Chuck's article, you'll see that Rich is incorrect. The cars > used during the harvest rush were in dedicated service and were cleaned, > sprayed wth lime, and modified with extra platforms to carry more tomatoes That's what happens when one tries to reply from memory. Sorry for the slip. Rich Orr --part1_23.34c42928.2c97b4d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 09/15/2003 10:27:26 AM Eastern Dayl= ight Time, b.hom@att.net writes:

If you read Chuck's article, yo= u'll see that Rich is incorrect. The cars
used during the harvest rush were in dedicated service and were cleaned, sprayed wth lime, and modified with extra platforms to carry more tomatoes

That's what happens when one tries to reply from memory. Sorry for the= slip.

Rich Orr --part1_23.34c42928.2c97b4d1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:11:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors --part1_187.1f2e60f4.2c97bd3b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:43:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: > And how about the odor of leaking steam lines on a cold night when you > crossed from car to car? The same odor I smelled as the Trailblazer paused at Canton, OH to allow my grandparents to disembark on frigid Christmas Eves year after year in the 1950s. It was a smell of hot metal and other indescribable things. As to the P70s reeking of cigar smoke: I always thought that was inevitable until on one trip home from college at Wooster, I ignored the trainman and turned right at the top of the vestibule instead of left. I found myself in a non-smoking coach, and it was heavenly in comparison. After that I wondered why the trainman always had directed me to the smoker. Did I really look that dissolute? Lee Rainey Lee Rainey --part1_187.1f2e60f4.2c97bd3b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:43:41 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, BPX29@aol.com writes:

And how about the odor of leaking steam lines on a cold nig= ht when you crossed from car to car?

The same odor I smelled as the Trailblazer paused at Canton, OH to allow my=20= grandparents to disembark on frigid Christmas Eves year after year in the 19= 50s. It was a smell of hot metal and other indescribable things.

As to the P70s reeking of cigar smoke: I always thought that was inevitable=20= until on one trip home from college at Wooster, I ignored the trainman and t= urned right at the top of the vestibule instead of left. I found myself in a= non-smoking coach, and it was heavenly in comparison. After that I wondered= why the trainman always had directed me to the smoker. Did I really look th= at dissolute?

Lee Rainey

Lee Rainey --part1_187.1f2e60f4.2c97bd3b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Car Colors Thanks to everyone who assisted me. I just received my copy of the "PRR Passenger Car Painting & Lettering" book. I bought the hardcover, and just cannot believe that it is only $20.00, even with the possibility of the glue coming apart, it is a quite a treasure for a measly 20 bucks. As I intend to model (I say intend as this book clearly shows that I am not there yet) the pre-war, pre-streamlined 'Great Red Fleet', I am also indebted to the several members who have sent Floquil paint formulas to me for the various paint colors, esp the metallic roof brown, and the underbody olive. I have put some thought into the orange window sashes, and I believe that my best bet is to apply this as a decal, or actually 4 decals per window... I have an Alps printer that can print decals, and Corel draw is a lifesaver for many things besides plain old decals. BTW: I used Corel draw to create an O Scale runner style persian carpet for my Pullman 'Liberty Cap' lounge car. I saved it as a PDF and would be glad to share this with anyone. Just email me offlist: towrowrow@yahoo.com. Thanks again!! ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:46:25 -0400

Does any of this stuff look close to what Pennsy used? Walthers is releasing just about everything you could need in the way of steam engine facilities.

http://www.georgestrains.com/chicago.shtml

Eric

--- Eric Lauterbach

--- ealauterbach@earthlink.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for copies of early PRR Form 109's Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:45:45 -0400 Rob, The Circular 109 "Classification and Description of Locomotives" in question were dated as follows: 109-A 7/01/00 109-B 5/01/02 109-E 6/01/12 Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Schoenberg To: PRR-talk ; Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 1:54 PM Subject: [PRR] Looking for copies of early PRR Form 109's > Hi all, > > I know this is a million to one shot, but does anyone on the list have a > copy of > Classification of Locomotives, PRR Form 109 revision A, B, or E? E is > probably > dated around 1912 and A & B are 1900 or before... I'd really like to get > copies > of these for my web site (http://prr.railfan.net) I'll gladly pay copying > costs > or can trade for copies of other issues... > > Thanks! > > Rob > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:51:44 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Two stories: The first is true and the second is anecdotal, but has the ring of truth and was passed on by a trustworthy source. 1. During week-long summer visits to my grandmother in the 1960s, I used to spend many midday hours at the Lewistown, Pa., station, usually sitting on a vacant baggage wagon on the eastbound side. I noticed that an eastbound stock train came through about the same time each day, and I soon learned to take diversionary tactics. This consisted of walking up the path on the Viscose Hill behind the PRR waiting shelter to a safe distance, to escape the stench until the freight had passed. One day, a n eastbound passenger train, probably 32-54 or 16, was late. It was due to make a stop and a crowd of passengers had gathered on the eastbound platform. The scheduled arrival time came and went with no passenger train. Then a horn sounded from the west, announcing that a train was approaching the grade crossing just east of LEWIS tower. Moments later, as soon as the train rounded the curve and came into sight, I saw the freight units and the long line of K9s, and got up and walked up the hill. The passengers also stood up, but they didn't know a GP35 from an E8 and thought this was their train. They picked up their suitcases and walked closer to the No. 1 track in anticipation of boarding. What they got, of course, was an unpleasant surprise, courtesy of the PRR. 2. Before the construction of HARRIS interlocking tower in Harrisburg (opened approximately spring 1930), PRR had three earlier towers that covered the same territory. One of them was situated across the main line from the present HARRIS and two or three blocks north. In other words, right across the tracks from the Swift & Co. packing plant. Block operators who worked that tower were said not to have carried lunch to work in summertime because, with tower windows open and slaughterhouse smells wafting through, they could never finish eating. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Re: Chris Chany- various odors Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:54:22 -0400 I believe that company was called Olfactory Airs. They could probably synthesize manure odors for the hobby. I would send you a 3 x 5 piece of blotter paper with a sample taken from my neighbors manure pit for the price of a stamp and blotter sample. I won't even charge a handling fee. I would consider it an honor to climb down into that pit for my fellow PRR fans. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Stock : yards and cars Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:07:03 -0400 Was livestock was shipped to stockyards for auction or were some carloads shipped directly to slaughter houses ?? Did large slaughter houses ship any sides,or parts,of animals further by rail after slaughter ?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:10:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars in Lancaster County Tomato Service --part1_151.2402c81b.2c97caff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doubt that the cars were used without sanitization. First, the USDA inspectors would reject produce loaded with animal waste. Personal experience with 4-H hog projects is that anything coming into contact with pig manure will quickly spoil or corrode. The cars would definitely have been thoroughly cleaned before the produce was loaded. Ditto on the PRR car inspector's comment on stock car maintenance. Have seen King Ranch cattle from Texas being unloaded in Bucks, Berks and Lancaster counties of Pennsylvania where the "honey" was dripping through to the underbody. The cattle were brought north for fattening then processing and distribution to the eastern and northeastern markets. Believe this is still practiced with trucks bringing the cattle up. This was one loading the railroads were eager to be rid of. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_151.2402c81b.2c97caff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doubt that the cars were used without sanitization.&nb= sp; First, the USDA inspectors would reject produce loaded with animal waste= . Personal experience with 4-H hog projects is that anything com= ing into contact with pig manure will quickly spoil or corrode. The ca= rs would definitely have been thoroughly cleaned before the produce was load= ed.

Ditto on the PRR car inspector's comment on stock car maintenance. Hav= e seen King Ranch cattle from Texas being unloaded in Bucks, Berks and Lanca= ster counties of Pennsylvania where the "honey" was dripping through to the=20= underbody. The cattle were brought north for fattening then processing= and distribution to the eastern and northeastern markets. Believe thi= s is still practiced with trucks bringing the cattle up. This was one=20= loading the railroads were eager to be rid of.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_151.2402c81b.2c97caff_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:26:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock : yards and cars --part1_12b.318b8d9c.2c97ceb8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hanging halves and quarters of beef and gutted whole hogs were shipped in captive service reefers. The reefers could only be used for hanging meat. The idea here was to use the transit time to age the meat. As the meat would come into contact with the car sides, the car interior was steam cleaned then sprayed with disinfectant, that smelled like Clorox Bleach, once unloaded . In later years of this service a wrap much like or possibly cheese cloth was used to wrap the beef. Quite the process to watch the meat handlers run the halves out of the car on an overhead rail system. If you saw the Sylvester Stalone movie Rocky, you saw the rail system in the scene where he was using the hanging beef as a punching bag. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_12b.318b8d9c.2c97ceb8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hanging halves and quarters of beef and gutted=20= whole hogs were shipped in captive service reefers. The reefers could=20= only be used for hanging meat. The idea here was to use the transit ti= me to age the meat. As the meat would come into contact with the car s= ides, the car interior was steam cleaned then sprayed with disinfectant, tha= t smelled like Clorox Bleach, once unloaded . In later years of this s= ervice a wrap much like or possibly cheese cloth was used to wrap the beef.&= nbsp; Quite the process to watch the meat handlers run the halves out of the= car on an overhead rail system. If you saw the Sylvester Stalone movi= e Rocky, you saw the rail system in the scene where he was using the hanging= beef as a punching bag.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_12b.318b8d9c.2c97ceb8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Bill, The Cabin Car Smell! Heating Oil and Fresh Brewed Coffee! Mmmm. Once I built an O Scale N5b and sprinkled keroseen in the interior. You got the affect when the roof was removed showing the details, although it was missing the java smell.....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:11:23 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:43:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: > And how about the odor of leaking steam lines on a cold night when you > crossed from car to car? The same odor I smelled as the Trailblazer paused at Canton, OH to allow my grandparents to disembark on frigid Christmas Eves year after year in the 1950s. It was a smell of hot metal and other indescribable things. As to the P70s reeking of cigar smoke: I always thought that was inevitable until on one trip home from college at Wooster, I ignored the trainman and turned right at the top of the vestibule instead of left. I found myself in a non-smoking coach, and it was heavenly in comparison. After that I wondered why the trainman always had directed me to the smoker. Did I really look that dissolute? Lee Rainey Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:51:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Two stories: The first is true and the second is anecdotal, but has the ring of truth and was passed on by a trustworthy source. 1. During week-long summer visits to my grandmother in the 1960s, I used to spend many midday hours at the Lewistown, Pa., station, usually sitting on a vacant baggage wagon on the eastbound side. I noticed that an eastbound stock train came through about the same time each day, and I soon learned to take diversionary tactics. This consisted of walking up the path on the Viscose Hill behind the PRR waiting shelter to a safe distance, to escape the stench until the freight had passed. One day, a n eastbound passenger train, probably 32-54 or 16, was late. It was due to make a stop and a crowd of passengers had gathered on the eastbound platform. The scheduled arrival time came and went with no passenger train. Then a horn sounded from the west, announcing that a train was approaching the grade crossing just east of LEWIS tower. Moments later, as soon as the train rounded the curve and came into sight, I saw the freight units and the long line of K9s, and got up and walked up the hill. The passengers also stood up, but they didn't know a GP35 from an E8 and thought this was their train. They picked up their suitcases and walked closer to the No. 1 track in anticipation of boarding. What they got, of course, was an unpleasant surprise, courtesy of the PRR. 2. Before the construction of HARRIS interlocking tower in Harrisburg (opened approximately spring 1930), PRR had three earlier towers that covered the same territory. One of them was situated across the main line from the present HARRIS and two or three blocks north. In other words, right across the tracks from the Swift & Co. packing plant. Block operators who worked that tower were said not to have carried lunch to work in summertime because, with tower windows open and slaughterhouse smells wafting through, they could never finish eating. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:18:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C37BD7.42F3B9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eric--In the photo of the Walther's sanding towers in the background = is that an ash hoist? Now that is big news!! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eric Lauterbach=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities Does any of this stuff look close to what Pennsy used? Walthers is = releasing just about everything you could need in the way of steam = engine facilities. http://www.georgestrains.com/chicago.shtml Eric ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C37BD7.42F3B9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric--In the photo of the Walther's = sanding=20 towers in the background is that an ash hoist? Now that is big=20 news!!

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Eric Lauterbach
To: prr-talk

Sent: Monday, September 15, = 2003 8:46=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine=20 Facilities

Does any of this stuff look close to what Pennsy used? Walthers = is=20 releasing just about everything you could need in the way of steam = engine=20 facilities.

http://www.georgestra= ins.com/chicago.shtml

Eric

------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C37BD7.42F3B9C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:31:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock : yards and cars --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > In > later years of this service a wrap much like or possibly cheese > cloth was used > to wrap the beef. I recall reading a reference some time ago which mentioned "beef cloth". Can't recall if it said it was coarser than or finer than cheese cloth. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:51:45 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" On the other hand, thousands of modelers will > buy a car that is decorated for an incorrect road, only to find out later > that it is wrong. 99% won't care, even enough to find out whether it is right or wrong. For those among the 1%, though, I agree with you, Bruce, that is a bummer. I speak as one, who as a beginner, owned BOTH an Athearn Sante Fe caboose lettered PRR and an SP bay window lettered PRR until I found out better :-). > I'm not sure that builds the kind of reputation that BLI > is seeking (can you say Lionel). Unfortunately again, a stock car with noise says Lionel already, to me. I wouldn't weigh it heavily against an N&W A class, though. >A compromise would be the blue box/red > box, P2K vs P1.5K idea. Branchline, too. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:53:40 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C37BDC.350E3150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No pictures, no samples. Only literature with diagram I've put online at:www.fleetofmodernism.com/k7a.jpg. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: > > 1. Has anyone actually SEEN photos or test models of the BLI stock car = to > confirm that it's a Class K7 or K7A car? There are no photos on the Walthers > website, and there is no mention of the model on the BLI website. > > 2. CLASS K7 AND K7A ARE UNIQUE TO THE PRR! The truss pattern of alternating > diagonals on the Class X23 family of cars is unique, and very few = roads (if > any) copied the pattern. Furthermore, Class K7 and K7A aren't the = same - > Class K7 are single deck cars built new as stock cars, Class K7A are double > deck cars rebuilt from taller Class X24 automobile cars after Class X31/X31A > made them obsolete. Saying that other road names are available for = this car > because BLI is lettering cars for this is like saying that Penny had offset > hoppers because Bev-Bel lettered Athearn twins and quads for PRR. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C37BDC.350E3150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No pictures, no=20 samples. Only literature with diagram I've put=20 online
at:www.fleetofmodernism.com/k7a.jpg.

Bob = Zoeller

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: <b.hom@att.net>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>
&g= t; 1. Has=20 anyone actually SEEN photos or test models of the BLI stock car = to
>=20 confirm that it's a Class K7 or K7A car? There are no photos on=20 the
Walthers
> website, and there is no mention of the model on = the BLI=20 website.
>
> 2. CLASS K7 AND K7A ARE UNIQUE TO THE = PRR! The=20 truss pattern of
alternating
> diagonals on the Class X23 = family of=20 cars is unique, and very few roads
(if
> any) copied the = pattern. =20 Furthermore, Class K7 and K7A aren't the same -
> Class K7 are = single deck=20 cars built new as stock cars, Class K7A are
double
> deck cars = rebuilt=20 from taller Class X24 automobile cars after Class
X31/X31A
> = made them=20 obsolete. Saying that other road names are available for=20 this
car
> because BLI is lettering cars for this is like = saying that=20 Penny had
offset
> hoppers because Bev-Bel lettered Athearn = twins and=20 quads for PRR.

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C37BDC.350E3150-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 3 axle passenger trucks Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:16:10 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" > Yep, it won't work...The reason is that ONLY the PRR cars come with the > PRR trucks (which are pretty accurate). Well, then, to quote the late great Emily Litella again, never mind :-). Bob (learn something new every day) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:27:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C37BE0.E6A464D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote: "No pictures, no samples. Only literature with diagram I've put online at:www.fleetofmodernism.com/k7a.jpg." Try www.fleetofmodernism.com/k7a.jpg That period at the end of the original post screws up the URL. I = wondered why it didn't appear as a link. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C37BE0.E6A464D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wrote:

"No pictures,=20 no samples. Only literature with diagram I've put=20 online
at:www.fleetofmodernism.com/k7a.jpg."

Try www.fleetofmodernism.com= /k7a.jpg

That period at the end of the original = post screws=20 up the URL. I wondered why it didn't appear as a = link.

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C37BE0.E6A464D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:41:13 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C37C25.E7A9B980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve et al Walthers has indeed announced an ash hoist for October delivery in HO. = Their descriptiopn indicates it is based on a Fairbanks Morse design = introduced in the late 1920's. Kit includes a detailed steel tower, = positionable dump shute and bucket and a complete under track pit. MSRP = $24.98 Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: STEPHEN HOXIE To: prr-talk Date: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities Hi Eric--In the photo of the Walther's sanding towers in the = background is that an ash hoist? Now that is big news!! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eric Lauterbach=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities Does any of this stuff look close to what Pennsy used? Walthers is = releasing just about everything you could need in the way of steam = engine facilities. http://www.georgestrains.com/chicago.shtml Eric ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C37C25.E7A9B980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve et al

Walthers has indeed announced an ash hoist for = October=20 delivery in HO. Their descriptiopn indicates it is based on a Fairbanks = Morse=20 design introduced in the late 1920's. Kit includes a detailed = steel tower,=20 positionable dump shute and bucket and a complete under track pit. = MSRP=20 $24.98

Frank Brua

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 STEPHEN HOXIE <stevehprr@earthlink.net>To:=20 prr-talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Monday, September 15, 2003 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Steam=20 Engine Facilities

Hi Eric--In the photo of the = Walther's sanding=20 towers in the background is that an ash hoist? Now that is big=20 news!!

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Eric Lauterbach =
To: prr-talk

Sent: Monday, September 15, = 2003 8:46=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine=20 Facilities

Does any of this stuff look close to what Pennsy used? Walthers = is=20 releasing just about everything you could need in the way of steam = engine=20 facilities.

http://www.georgestra= ins.com/chicago.shtml

Eric

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C37C25.E7A9B980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:44:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Facilities > Steve et al Walthers has indeed announced an ash hoist for October >delivery in HO. Their descriptiopn indicates it is based on a Fairbanks >Morse design introduced in the late 1920's. Kit includes a detailed >steel tower, positionable dump shute and bucket and a complete under >track pit. MSRP $24.98 Frank Brua These have been in the brochures for a few months now. I was tickled to see them as its one of the things I suggest to Bill Wischer, many moons ago! The model pictured does not look exactly like the ones I have seen on the PRR (Thorndale, Wilkes Barre, etc) as the top is different, but this is EASY kitbash material. The ash pit is on the "back side" from the chute, so it is a 2 track facilty with the dump on one and the car to be loaded on the other. PRR had two of these, oriented in opposite directions on the helper spur at Thorndale. One was for locos to dump ashes, and a hopper on the next track to collect them. The other used a hopper full of coal next to the ash hopper to load the tender of the steamers...neat little facility. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:49:00 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Stock Car > No pictures, no samples. Only literature with diagram I've put >onlineat http://www.fleetofmodernism.com/k7a.jpg Bob Zoeller I hope that they take as much care as Al westerfield and company did with the X23. A particular area that needs close attention is in the overlap of the side braces at the top and bottom. Guess we'll need to wait and see... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:57:09 -0400 The odor of cinders falling from a steam loco whilst hanging out a window or out an open vestibule (along with all the other aromas) was marvelous! The mention of "cinders in the shirt pocket" reminded me of a trip up the hill to Moscow behind the 4-6-2 at Steamtown the weekend after the grand opening. I was in the first coach, hanging out the window videotaping the entire trip, including the trip through the tunnel. Never dreamed I could still hold my breath so long! When we go up there both ears and both nostrils were packed solid with ash and cinders! (I was wearing a hat and goggles.) Great video however - well worth it! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:50:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors The eastbound stock was probably CNY-8 which passed Shore (Philly) around 800 Pm with P-5 power in late 50's. As a young lad I hung out at Shore after school and would wait for CNY-8 and MD-18 from Pot Yards (all refers) The smell would hang in the air from CNY-8 for 5 minutes or so. How about the flagman & condr. in the cabin car! ..................................Boomer PS CNY-8 set off stock at Philly, usually Zoo but sometimes Shore hence did not run cutoff ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Cupper To: William Bigler Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 9:51 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Two stories: The first is true and the second is anecdotal, but has the ring of truth and was passed on by a trustworthy source. 1. During week-long summer visits to my grandmother in the 1960s, I used to spend many midday hours at the Lewistown, Pa., station, usually sitting on a vacant baggage wagon on the eastbound side. I noticed that an eastbound stock train came through about the same time each day, and I soon learned to take diversionary tactics. This consisted of walking up the path on the Viscose Hill behind the PRR waiting shelter to a safe distance, to escape the stench until the freight had passed. One day, a n eastbound passenger train, probably 32-54 or 16, was late. It was due to make a stop and a crowd of passengers had gathered on the eastbound platform. The scheduled arrival time came and went with no passenger train. Then a horn sounded from the west, announcing that a train was approaching the grade crossing just east of LEWIS tower. Moments later, as soon as the train rounded the curve and came into sight, I saw the freight units and the long line of K9s, and got up and walked up the hill. The passengers also stood up, but they didn't know a GP35 from an E8 and thought this was their train. They picked up their suitcases and walked closer to the No. 1 track in anticipation of boarding. What they got, of course, was an unpleasant surprise, courtesy of the PRR. 2. Before the construction of HARRIS interlocking tower in Harrisburg (opened approximately spring 1930), PRR had three earlier towers that covered the same territory. One of them was situated across the main line from the present HARRIS and two or three blocks north. In other words, right across the tracks from the Swift & Co. packing plant. Block operators who worked that tower were said not to have carried lunch to work in summertime because, with tower windows open and slaughterhouse smells wafting through, they could never finish eating. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Briers, Ken" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:12:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: Re RS Unit Tommy: As Bartles & James used to say, "Thank you for your support!" Actually, the glass is not hard to spot. Its that heavy bright metal frame that gives it away. FRA glazing is several times thicker than a sheet of safety class, and it has to be fitted to an opening in the cab body. As I recall, the sheet steel that formed the body is about as thick as the glass (maybe even a little thinner), and the standard grooved rubber strip was all that held the glass in place. The FRA compliant glazing being much thicker requires the heavier frame. The frame is possibly also part of a more secure attachment to the cab body. This is because the "glass", being more likely to resist breaking, might be pushed through the opening by the impact, and become a projectile itself. The glass frame and the lack of footboards are characteristics or requirements that took effect around 1980. The Glazing standards for locomotives went into effect on June 30, 1980, and all locomotives had to be equipped by June 30, 1984. That is why I suspected that the photo was recent. Modelers take note! All of this discussion leaves open the question of whether the crankcase exhauster stack is a post-PRR addition, or not. For convenience, Bill Lane's slide is at: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg In looking at it again, I would say that is South Florida foliage in the background, not characteristic of Pittsburgh or Chicago. The following is excerpted from FRA requirements (49CFR223, Appendix A): (10) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for use in end facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type I test regimen consisting of the following tests: (i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per second velocity. (ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at the corner of the block at a minimum of 44 feet per second velocity. The cinder block must be of composition referenced in American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) Specification C33L or ASTM C90. If anyone is really interested, the full text is at http://www.fra.dot.gov/counsel/regs/cfr_49_oct2000/223.htm. Ken Briers ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lancaster stockyards Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:27:12 +0000 All this talk about cattlecars reminded me that into the 60's I recall Lancaster having a fairly extensive stock yards on the north side of the tracks and east of the station. Am I having delusions in my old age or did this exist? Where did the livestock come from (local?). I do remember there was an excellent restaurant in that area that served great beef. I think it wa called the Stockyard Inn or something similar. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lancaster stockyards Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:11:58 -0400 Both still existed as of the convention there a few years ago. Two friends and I stopped by to photograph the stockyards as a truckload of calves arrived. Wow! Phew! We went back much later to finish the photos! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: [PRR] Lancaster stockyards > All this talk about cattlecars reminded me that into the 60's I recall > Lancaster having a fairly extensive stock yards on the north side of the > tracks and east of the station. Am I having delusions in my old age or did > this exist? Where did the livestock come from (local?). I do remember there > was an excellent restaurant in that area that served great beef. I think it > wa called the Stockyard Inn or something similar. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Altoona depot? Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:19:59 -0400 In the book "Altoona and The Pennsylvania Railroad - Between a Roar and a Whimper" there is an excellent track chart of the yards. The East Altoona Passenger Station is clearly shown near the East Altoona Roundhouse and engine terminal on the north side of the westbound passenger tracks. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Altoona depot? > Charlie: > > Thanks for the info. Another possibility exists; this may be an Altoona > depot from a railroad other than the Pennsy. I know that there was an Altoona, > Iowa on the Rock Islnad and Altoona, Wisconsin on the C&NW, amongst other > locations. Or it may be a Pennsy depot from some other place beside Altoona, PA. I > hope to be able to get down there and take a few pictures sometime in the > next couple of weeks. May help to solve the mystery > > Les Beckman (HVRM) > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark > Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:14:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Power on Manhattan Limited From: Jerry Britton I'm putting together train #23, The Manhattan Limited, as of 1954. What power might be appropriate for this train, for Harrisburg and points west? It wasn't a "first tier" train, so I'm thinking it may have had other than EMD E units. What about an Alco PA/PB/PA lashup? "Makeup of Trains, New York Division" shows: B60b B60b B60b X29 B60b P85b P85b P85b P85b P85b Diner PS13L PS21B HW 12-1 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] RS Unit Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:51:29 -0400 Hi All, Since I started this thread, I would like to add that if anyone is in striking distance of this unit, I would KILL for detail shots of the number boards and how they are attached to the corners of the carbody. I think they are recessed or notched as opposed to a bracket fitting on the rounded corners. Anyone? Anyone? Thanks to Ken & Tom for the additional research. I would have never guessed this unit was still in existence. Looks like someone outta strap 'er to the roof of their '65 Biscayne and head north to Strasburg so she can join the rest of the family for a big ole family reunion. It pains me to see the last examples of a PRR class in very distant non-PRR regions. Thanks Bill -----Original Message----- From: Briers, Ken [mailto:Ken.Briers@parsons.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:13 AM To: 'teenyrailfan' Cc: 'Bill Lane'; 'PRR@yahoogroups.com'; 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: Re RS Unit Tommy: As Bartles & James used to say, "Thank you for your support!" Actually, the glass is not hard to spot. Its that heavy bright metal frame that gives it away. FRA glazing is several times thicker than a sheet of safety class, and it has to be fitted to an opening in the cab body. As I recall, the sheet steel that formed the body is about as thick as the glass (maybe even a little thinner), and the standard grooved rubber strip was all that held the glass in place. The FRA compliant glazing being much thicker requires the heavier frame. The frame is possibly also part of a more secure attachment to the cab body. This is because the "glass", being more likely to resist breaking, might be pushed through the opening by the impact, and become a projectile itself. The glass frame and the lack of footboards are characteristics or requirements that took effect around 1980. The Glazing standards for locomotives went into effect on June 30, 1980, and all locomotives had to be equipped by June 30, 1984. That is why I suspected that the photo was recent. Modelers take note! All of this discussion leaves open the question of whether the crankcase exhauster stack is a post-PRR addition, or not. For convenience, Bill Lane's slide is at: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg In looking at it again, I would say that is South Florida foliage in the background, not characteristic of Pittsburgh or Chicago. The following is excerpted from FRA requirements (49CFR223, Appendix A): (10) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for use in end facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type I test regimen consisting of the following tests: (i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per second velocity. (ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at the corner of the block at a minimum of 44 feet per second velocity. The cinder block must be of composition referenced in American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) Specification C33L or ASTM C90. If anyone is really interested, the full text is at http://www.fra.dot.gov/counsel/regs/cfr_49_oct2000/223.htm. Ken Briers -----Original Message----- From: teenyrailfan [mailto:reddyrider@aol.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:20 PM To: Ken.Briers@parsons.com Subject: Re RS Unit Hi Ken I posted a message in the PRR Fax board about the above topic, but it's been almost 24 hours and the message still has not shown up so I decided to just email you. In short, you were right I think, PRR 8604 IS a preserved locomotive. I too thought there was something kinda hinky (is that a word?) about the unit AND that weird looking exhaust stack. My curiousity got the better of me and I Googled PRR 8604. In short, I discovered the unit is at the Florida Gulf Coast Museum in Parrish, FL. It isn't running but has been "restored." The website caption implied (at least to me) that FGCM painted the unit back to a PRR livery. (BTW, you sure know your FRA glass!) Below is a link that should take you to the photo that FGCM has on their website. Tommy Meehan http://www.frrm.org/images/equipment/prr-8604.jpg --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.517 / Virus Database: 315 - Release Date: 9/8/2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Farquhar" Subject: [PRR] new address Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:31:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37C78.5F2E5EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please take not that as of today, I am using a new email address whish = is: jffarquhar@comcast.net Please make note and add to your address books. Thank you John Farquhar ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37C78.5F2E5EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please take not that as of today, I am using a new = email=20 address whish is:

jffarquhar@comcast.net<= /DIV>

Please make note and add to your address = books. Thank=20 you

John Farquhar

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C37C78.5F2E5EA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:59:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Power on Manhattan Limited -------------------------------1063749562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List, By 1954 E units would have been regular power on The Manhattan Limited. The Pennsy often ran an ABA set of E units Of course the B would be for sure an E7. Bill -------------------------------1063749562 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello List,

= ; By 1954 E units would have been regular power on The Manhattan Limited. Th= e Pennsy often ran an ABA set of E units Of course the B would be for sure a= n E7.

= ; &nb= sp; &= nbsp; = ; &nb= sp; Bill -------------------------------1063749562-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Farquhar" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:31:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] new address Please take not that as of today, I am using a new email address whish is: jffarquhar@comcast.net Please make note and add to your address books. Thank you John Farquhar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Power on Manhattan Limited Hi Jerry, I think E7/E8 power would be the best bet for the Manhatten Limited. 4 unit lash ups were common on the Manhatten because of the large amount of head end mail. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:45:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lancaster stockyards -------------------------------1063752348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The last PRRT&HS Annual that was held at Lancaster, I saw the restaurant but I think the stockyards were gone. Ray Burghart SPF -------------------------------1063752348 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The last PRRT&HS Annual that was hel= d at Lancaster, I saw the restaurant but I think the stockyards were gone.

Ray Burghart

SPF

-------------------------------1063752348-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:05:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Number of List Participants List Yardmasters (Moms?) - A question of curiosity. I just spent several days in San Diego and when I got home, had almost 600 emails waiting for me. There seemed to be an unusual number from this list (not a complaint, just an observation). How many folks are actually subscribed to this list and are there any historical message volume figures available? I am not a modeler. My interest stems from my 6 year employment with the PRR, so, some messages are more interesting to me than others. But, seeing days worth of mail, I was impressed by the volume. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:33:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power on Manhattan Limited From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 05:59 PM, WAMMP236@aol.com wrote: > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 By 1954 E units would have been = regular power on The=20 > Manhattan Limited. The Pennsy often ran an ABA set of E units Of=20 > course the B would be for sure an E7 Thanks...but that brings up the question "Where would the Alco PA's=20 have been in 1954?" I know the passenger sharks were in mail service, if at all, and=20 centipedes had become helpers on the east slope. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:38:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants From: Listmaster On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 08:05 PM, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > List Yardmasters (Moms?) - > > A question of curiosity. I just spent several days in San Diego and > when I > got home, had almost 600 emails waiting for me. > > There seemed to be an unusual number from this list (not a complaint, > just an > observation). PRR-talk traffic has been very high lately. That is good! Instead of one very active thread, there have been several: reefers, stock cars, tomato traffic, etc. > > How many folks are actually subscribed to this list and are there any > historical message volume figures available? The number of subscribers fluctuates daily. As of this writing it is 673. > > I am not a modeler. My interest stems from my 6 year employment with > the PRR, > so, some messages are more interesting to me than others. But, seeing > days > worth of mail, I was impressed by the volume. And there are two schools of thought on that. Some prefer one list for prototype discussion and a separate one for modeling info. I prefer the combined format. Modelers need input from those who know the prototype in order to model correctly. Many former employees are more than happy to share their memories and libraries. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lancaster stockyards Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:27:10 -0400 The Lancaster Stockyards are for sale. The land has had several potential uses put forth - but nothing has yet has been built there. Some of the pens have been de-constructed but the vast majority of the yard is still intact. They where at one time the largest stockyards east of Chicago. I think there are one or two auctions a year yet The Stockyard Inn is alive and well - still serving wonderful food - great burgers too. I drive past it 4 to 5 times a week - only stopped to take pictures once. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:27 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Lancaster stockyards All this talk about cattlecars reminded me that into the 60's I recall Lancaster having a fairly extensive stock yards on the north side of the tracks and east of the station. Am I having delusions in my old age or did this exist? Where did the livestock come from (local?). I do remember there was an excellent restaurant in that area that served great beef. I think it wa called the Stockyard Inn or something similar. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Tracking #: AE1AF01FA666C04C9E134AB535BA51BBA78111EF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:45:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors From: aurora7@juno.com Yep, leaking steam, high humidity, the smell of newspaper print intermingled with Nedicks hotdogs. Of course, you had to be underground at Penn Station, in New York City. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine " Going to church doesn't make you a good person any more than standing in a garage makes you a car". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:54:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Express" trains In perusing Easter Region timetable #21 (4/66) I ran across something I hadn't noticed (page 173): a table of "Express Trains -- Passenger Extra" running from Newark (South Broad Street, not a station shown in the Stations pages) to New York. There were usually two trains a day, one in the afternoon and one in the wee hours; running time 20-25 minutes; stops have "E" notes ("regular stop for express, mail, or newspapers"), the trains have numbers like "M-260" (mail ?), and the times are for information only (no timetable authority). There were no corresponding westward trains listed. Anybody know what this was? What was being carried? Where was South Broad Street, perhaps a team track in the yards near Hunter maybe? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:57:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power on Manhattan Limited From: Jerry Britton Thanks for the many responses yesterday that power for the 1954 Manhattan Limited would most surely have been EMD E units. I'm going to assign an ABA set of Life Like E7's. The B unit is a dummy and will have a Soundtraxx system (yes, it fits!). What is the general opinion on what type of diner would have been on this train? An older D78-something? Or a newer D82-something or D85-something? Obviously not a twin unit diner train. Maybe one of the D85A's built by Budd in the same timeframe as the P85b's that were on this train? As for the Alco PA's, I only have three sets. Since EMD power was predominate by 1954, guess I'll put them on the north-south routes. I do want to use them in passenger service; and I have FA sets for freight service. (Can't wait for Hirsimaki's "Black Gold Black Diamonds, Vol.3" as it will cover the 1954 era. Anyone know the status?) On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 02:14 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm putting together train #23, The Manhattan Limited, as of 1954. > > What power might be appropriate for this train, for Harrisburg and > points west? > > It wasn't a "first tier" train, so I'm thinking it may have had other > than EMD E units. > > What about an Alco PA/PB/PA lashup? > > "Makeup of Trains, New York Division" shows: > B60b > B60b > B60b > X29 > B60b > P85b > P85b > P85b > P85b > P85b > Diner > PS13L > PS21B > HW 12-1 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:51:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS Unit Hi All, Since I started this thread, I would like to add that if anyone is in striking distance of this unit, I would KILL for detail shots of the number boards and how they are attached to the corners of the carbody. I think they are recessed or notched as opposed to a bracket fitting on the rounded corners. Anyone? Anyone? Thanks to Ken & Tom for the additional research. I would have never guessed this unit was still in existence. Looks like someone outta strap 'er to the roof of their '65 Biscayne and head north to Strasburg so she can join the rest of the family for a big ole family reunion. It pains me to see the last examples of a PRR class in very distant non-PRR regions. Thanks Bill -----Original Message----- From: Briers, Ken [mailto:Ken.Briers@parsons.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:13 AM To: 'teenyrailfan' Cc: 'Bill Lane'; 'PRR@yahoogroups.com'; 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: Re RS Unit Tommy: As Bartles & James used to say, "Thank you for your support!" Actually, the glass is not hard to spot. Its that heavy bright metal frame that gives it away. FRA glazing is several times thicker than a sheet of safety class, and it has to be fitted to an opening in the cab body. As I recall, the sheet steel that formed the body is about as thick as the glass (maybe even a little thinner), and the standard grooved rubber strip was all that held the glass in place. The FRA compliant glazing being much thicker requires the heavier frame. The frame is possibly also part of a more secure attachment to the cab body. This is because the "glass", being more likely to resist breaking, might be pushed through the opening by the impact, and become a projectile itself. The glass frame and the lack of footboards are characteristics or requirements that took effect around 1980. The Glazing standards for locomotives went into effect on June 30, 1980, and all locomotives had to be equipped by June 30, 1984. That is why I suspected that the photo was recent. Modelers take note! All of this discussion leaves open the question of whether the crankcase exhauster stack is a post-PRR addition, or not. For convenience, Bill Lane's slide is at: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg In looking at it again, I would say that is South Florida foliage in the background, not characteristic of Pittsburgh or Chicago. The following is excerpted from FRA requirements (49CFR223, Appendix A): (10) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for use in end facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type I test regimen consisting of the following tests: (i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per second velocity. (ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at the corner of the block at a minimum of 44 feet per second velocity. The cinder block must be of composition referenced in American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) Specification C33L or ASTM C90. If anyone is really interested, the full text is at http://www.fra.dot.gov/counsel/regs/cfr_49_oct2000/223.htm. Ken Briers -----Original Message----- From: teenyrailfan [mailto:reddyrider@aol.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:20 PM To: Ken.Briers@parsons.com Subject: Re RS Unit Hi Ken I posted a message in the PRR Fax board about the above topic, but it's been almost 24 hours and the message still has not shown up so I decided to just email you. In short, you were right I think, PRR 8604 IS a preserved locomotive. I too thought there was something kinda hinky (is that a word?) about the unit AND that weird looking exhaust stack. My curiousity got the better of me and I Googled PRR 8604. In short, I discovered the unit is at the Florida Gulf Coast Museum in Parrish, FL. It isn't running but has been "restored." The website caption implied (at least to me) that FGCM painted the unit back to a PRR livery. (BTW, you sure know your FRA glass!) Below is a link that should take you to the photo that FGCM has on their website. Tommy Meehan http://www.frrm.org/images/equipment/prr-8604.jpg --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.517 / Virus Database: 315 - Release Date: 9/8/2003 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] PRR assigned Pullman floor plans Does anyone know of a source for Pullman floorplans? I am specifically looking to model the interior of the PRR asigned Pullman car "THE BROADWAY" 2 compartment/1 drawing room/buffet/solarium. Plan 3975-B as operated on the Broadaway Limited in the mid 1930s. Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Hpallesen" Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2- or Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:08:16 +0200 Hi PRR fans, I am a Danish PRR fan building a new PRR/(NYC) 0-scale layout here in Reims, 1h 30' from Paris, France! I spend too much time on this list, that I should have spent building my layout and I am unfortunately without any PRR friends that could and would help me here ! I would like to find a site where less non 0-scale posts arrived in my e-mail ! It would be wonderful, if this list was divided in some groups, one to be for somebody like me, who are not interested (at the moment) in a lot of HO etc. e-mails ! Please help me with some ideas, either here or direct to me: h2pallesen@wanadoo.fr If you e-mail me your phone number, I can call you, I have a very cheap phonecall provider ! Hope to get some response, before I have to leave this list, due to too many e-mails ! Regards Hugo B. Pallesen PS: I am member of the PRR T&HS both National and Philadelphia Chapter, "O SCALE KINGS", NMRA, TCA, the French, English and German O Scale National Clubs, plus some more ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Listmaster" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 2:38 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants > On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 08:05 PM, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > > List Yardmasters (Moms?) - > > > > A question of curiosity. I just spent several days in San Diego and > > when I > > got home, had almost 600 emails waiting for me. > > > > There seemed to be an unusual number from this list (not a complaint, > > just an > > observation). > > PRR-talk traffic has been very high lately. That is good! > > Instead of one very active thread, there have been several: reefers, > stock cars, tomato traffic, etc. > > > > How many folks are actually subscribed to this list and are there any > > historical message volume figures available? > > The number of subscribers fluctuates daily. As of this writing it is > 673. > > > > I am not a modeler. My interest stems from my 6 year employment with > > the PRR, > > so, some messages are more interesting to me than others. But, seeing > > days > > worth of mail, I was impressed by the volume. > > And there are two schools of thought on that. Some prefer one list for > prototype discussion and a separate one for modeling info. I prefer the > combined format. Modelers need input from those who know the prototype > in order to model correctly. Many former employees are more than happy > to share their memories and libraries. > ---------------------------------------- > Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com > Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:25:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2- or From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 10:08 AM, Hpallesen wrote: > I would like to find a site where less non 0-scale posts arrived in my > e-mail ! It would be wonderful, if this list was divided in some > groups, one > to be for somebody like me, who are not interested (at the moment) in > a lot > of HO etc. e-mails ! This is the wrong list for you then, sorry! There is a PRR N Scale modeling list, but I am not aware of one for O scale. Anyone? ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:35 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] RS Unit According to John Komanesky's list at: http://www.ole.net/~rcraig/PRSVDalcoRS.HTML There are actually 2 other RS-3's still around, but not in PRR paint... One is the hammerhead RS-3 (PRR 8445) which is in Rochester, restored to LV paint (it was leased to the LV) and the other is PRR 8912 which is listed as still in Amtrack paint (#140) at the Railroad Museum of New England. Also, the Florida Gulf Coast Museum lists pullman "Washington Square" in their collection as being used on the Broadway Limited. (New 1925, 5 compartment, 3 DR) They don't have a photo or any other info... Anyone know anything about this? Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:51 PM > To: Briers, Ken; 'teenyrailfan' > Cc: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS Unit > > > Hi All, > > Since I started this thread, I would like to add that if anyone is in > striking distance of this unit, I would KILL for detail shots of > the number > boards and how they are attached to the corners of the carbody. I > think they > are recessed or notched as opposed to a bracket fitting on the rounded > corners. Anyone? Anyone? > > Thanks to Ken & Tom for the additional research. I would have > never guessed > this unit was still in existence. Looks like someone outta strap > 'er to the > roof of their '65 Biscayne and head north to Strasburg so she can join the > rest of the family for a big ole family reunion. It pains me to > see the last > examples of a PRR class in very distant non-PRR regions. > > Thanks > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: Briers, Ken [mailto:Ken.Briers@parsons.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:13 AM > To: 'teenyrailfan' > Cc: 'Bill Lane'; 'PRR@yahoogroups.com'; 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: Re RS Unit > > Tommy: > > As Bartles & James used to say, "Thank you for your support!" > > Actually, the glass is not hard to spot. Its that heavy bright > metal frame > that gives it away. FRA glazing is several times thicker than a sheet of > safety class, and it has to be fitted to an opening in the cab body. As I > recall, the sheet steel that formed the body is about as thick as > the glass > (maybe even a little thinner), and the standard grooved rubber > strip was all > that held the glass in place. The FRA compliant glazing being > much thicker > requires the heavier frame. The frame is possibly also part of a more > secure attachment to the cab body. This is because the "glass", > being more > likely to resist breaking, might be pushed through the opening by the > impact, and become a projectile itself. > > The glass frame and the lack of footboards are characteristics or > requirements that took effect around 1980. The Glazing standards for > locomotives went into effect on June 30, 1980, and all > locomotives had to be > equipped by June 30, 1984. That is why I suspected that the photo was > recent. > > Modelers take note! All of this discussion leaves open the question of > whether the crankcase exhauster stack is a post-PRR addition, or not. > > For convenience, Bill Lane's slide is at: > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg In looking at > it again, > I would say that is South Florida foliage in the background, not > characteristic of Pittsburgh or Chicago. > > The following is excerpted from FRA requirements (49CFR223, Appendix A): > > (10) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for > use in end > facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type I test regimen > consisting of the following tests: > > (i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet > of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per > second velocity. > > > (ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight > with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at > the corner of the block at a minimum of 44 feet per second velocity. The > cinder block must be of composition referenced in American Society for > Testing and Materials (ASTM) Specification C33L or ASTM C90. > > If anyone is really interested, the full text is at > http://www.fra.dot.gov/counsel/regs/cfr_49_oct2000/223.htm. > > Ken Briers > > -----Original Message----- > From: teenyrailfan [mailto:reddyrider@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:20 PM > To: Ken.Briers@parsons.com > Subject: Re RS Unit > > > Hi Ken > I posted a message in the PRR Fax board about the above topic, but > it's been almost 24 hours and the message still has not shown up so I > decided to just email you. > > In short, you were right I think, PRR 8604 IS a preserved locomotive. > I too thought there was something kinda hinky (is that a word?) about > the unit AND that weird looking exhaust stack. My curiousity got the > better of me and I Googled PRR 8604. In short, I discovered the unit > is at the Florida Gulf Coast Museum in Parrish, FL. It isn't running > but has been "restored." The website caption implied (at least to me) > that FGCM painted the unit back to a PRR livery. (BTW, you sure know > your FRA glass!) > > Below is a link that should take you to the photo that FGCM has on > their website. > > Tommy Meehan > > > http://www.frrm.org/images/equipment/prr-8604.jpg > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.517 / Virus Database: 315 - Release Date: 9/8/2003 > > > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information > While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] RS Unit Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:35 -0400 According to John Komanesky's list at: http://www.ole.net/~rcraig/PRSVDalcoRS.HTML There are actually 2 other RS-3's still around, but not in PRR paint... One is the hammerhead RS-3 (PRR 8445) which is in Rochester, restored to LV paint (it was leased to the LV) and the other is PRR 8912 which is listed as still in Amtrack paint (#140) at the Railroad Museum of New England. Also, the Florida Gulf Coast Museum lists pullman "Washington Square" in their collection as being used on the Broadway Limited. (New 1925, 5 compartment, 3 DR) They don't have a photo or any other info... Anyone know anything about this? Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:51 PM > To: Briers, Ken; 'teenyrailfan' > Cc: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS Unit > > > Hi All, > > Since I started this thread, I would like to add that if anyone is in > striking distance of this unit, I would KILL for detail shots of > the number > boards and how they are attached to the corners of the carbody. I > think they > are recessed or notched as opposed to a bracket fitting on the rounded > corners. Anyone? Anyone? > > Thanks to Ken & Tom for the additional research. I would have > never guessed > this unit was still in existence. Looks like someone outta strap > 'er to the > roof of their '65 Biscayne and head north to Strasburg so she can join the > rest of the family for a big ole family reunion. It pains me to > see the last > examples of a PRR class in very distant non-PRR regions. > > Thanks > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: Briers, Ken [mailto:Ken.Briers@parsons.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:13 AM > To: 'teenyrailfan' > Cc: 'Bill Lane'; 'PRR@yahoogroups.com'; 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: Re RS Unit > > Tommy: > > As Bartles & James used to say, "Thank you for your support!" > > Actually, the glass is not hard to spot. Its that heavy bright > metal frame > that gives it away. FRA glazing is several times thicker than a sheet of > safety class, and it has to be fitted to an opening in the cab body. As I > recall, the sheet steel that formed the body is about as thick as > the glass > (maybe even a little thinner), and the standard grooved rubber > strip was all > that held the glass in place. The FRA compliant glazing being > much thicker > requires the heavier frame. The frame is possibly also part of a more > secure attachment to the cab body. This is because the "glass", > being more > likely to resist breaking, might be pushed through the opening by the > impact, and become a projectile itself. > > The glass frame and the lack of footboards are characteristics or > requirements that took effect around 1980. The Glazing standards for > locomotives went into effect on June 30, 1980, and all > locomotives had to be > equipped by June 30, 1984. That is why I suspected that the photo was > recent. > > Modelers take note! All of this discussion leaves open the question of > whether the crankcase exhauster stack is a post-PRR addition, or not. > > For convenience, Bill Lane's slide is at: > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS_unit.jpg In looking at > it again, > I would say that is South Florida foliage in the background, not > characteristic of Pittsburgh or Chicago. > > The following is excerpted from FRA requirements (49CFR223, Appendix A): > > (10) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for > use in end > facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type I test regimen > consisting of the following tests: > > (i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet > of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per > second velocity. > > > (ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight > with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at > the corner of the block at a minimum of 44 feet per second velocity. The > cinder block must be of composition referenced in American Society for > Testing and Materials (ASTM) Specification C33L or ASTM C90. > > If anyone is really interested, the full text is at > http://www.fra.dot.gov/counsel/regs/cfr_49_oct2000/223.htm. > > Ken Briers > > -----Original Message----- > From: teenyrailfan [mailto:reddyrider@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:20 PM > To: Ken.Briers@parsons.com > Subject: Re RS Unit > > > Hi Ken > I posted a message in the PRR Fax board about the above topic, but > it's been almost 24 hours and the message still has not shown up so I > decided to just email you. > > In short, you were right I think, PRR 8604 IS a preserved locomotive. > I too thought there was something kinda hinky (is that a word?) about > the unit AND that weird looking exhaust stack. My curiousity got the > better of me and I Googled PRR 8604. In short, I discovered the unit > is at the Florida Gulf Coast Museum in Parrish, FL. It isn't running > but has been "restored." The website caption implied (at least to me) > that FGCM painted the unit back to a PRR livery. (BTW, you sure know > your FRA glass!) > > Below is a link that should take you to the photo that FGCM has on > their website. > > Tommy Meehan > > > http://www.frrm.org/images/equipment/prr-8604.jpg > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.517 / Virus Database: 315 - Release Date: 9/8/2003 > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark > Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & > Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information > While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:09:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Express" trains -------------------------------1063818561 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I have an NY division timetable (1949 which shows those movements. There use to be a short stub siding trailing point switch in Newark with a narrow platform. I assumed it was for mail and express. Ray Burghart SPF -------------------------------1063818561 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John,

I have an NY division timetable (1949&nb= sp;which shows those movements. There use to be a short stub siding tra= iling point switch in Newark with a narrow platform. I assumed it was=20= for mail and express.

Ray Burghart

SPF

-------------------------------1063818561-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: Re: [PRR] E-units on freights Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:33:44 -0400 I am sorry, but I only get the digest form, so it takes a little bit to get back to the discussion. There were several entries by Bill Volkmer that came out all scrambled. Did anyone catch what he added to discussion? Thank you, Paul Stumpff in Geneva, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:25:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Pullman floorplan needed. OK< I asked for the wrong plan....what a day!! The cars of the plan I am modeling were operated on the Broadway Limited from 1932-1938. One of the cars is pictured on p25 of the book "The Broadway Ltd" by Rosenbaum and Gallo. They indicate that these two cars were part of a twelve car lot #6076, built in 1927 to Plan 3975-B. The cars were rebuilt and renamed "The Broadway" and "The Broadway Limited" in 1932 to plan 3965-G. I am seaching for the floorplan of 3965-G (not plan 3975-B as before, that was a mis-key), which included 1 compt, 1dr rm, buffet, barber shop, writing desk, and a 19 seat solarium lounge. Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Does this make sense? Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:58:28 +0000 NORTHEAST TRAINS TO AND FROM POINTS WEST: The following trains have been cancelled for Thursday: Lake Shore Limited between Chicago, Boston, and New York (trains 48-49, 448-449), Capitol Limited between Chicago and Washington, D.C. (trains 29-30), Pennsylvanian between Pittsburgh and New York City (trains 43-44), and Three Rivers between Chicago and New York City (trains 40- 41). In addition, the eastbound Cardinal (train 50) is cancelled Thursday between Chicago and Washington, D.C. On Friday, the westbound Cardinal (train 51) will operate between Indianapolis, Ind., and Chicago only. I understand the potential to cancel trains into and out of DC but this makes no sense to me. That storm isn't even due to hit the coast of North Carolina until Thursday. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:22:35 -0400 From: davep Subject: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? ndbprr@att.net wrote: >> NORTHEAST TRAINS TO AND FROM POINTS WEST: The following trains have been >> cancelled for Thursday: Lake Shore Limited between Chicago, Boston, and New >> York (trains 48-49, 448-449), Capitol Limited between Chicago and Washington, >> D.C. (trains 29-30), Pennsylvanian between Pittsburgh and New York City >> (trains 43-44), and Three Rivers between Chicago and New York City (trains 40- >> 41). In addition, the eastbound Cardinal (train 50) is cancelled Thursday >> between Chicago and Washington, D.C. On Friday, the westbound Cardinal (train >> 51) will operate between Indianapolis, Ind., and Chicago only. > I understand the potential to cancel trains into and out of DC but this > makes no sense to me. That storm isn't even due to hit the coast of North > Carolina until Thursday. Eye or first winds? And once equipment is trapped, out of position, the recovery time goes up RAPIDLY. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:39:47 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > NORTHEAST TRAINS TO AND FROM POINTS WEST: The following trains have > been cancelled for Thursday: > That storm isn't even due to hit the coast of North > Carolina until Thursday. On the other hand, I've seen and heard forecasts predicting it will enter PA Thursday afternoon or evening. Most forecasts include the phrase "Too soon to predict with certainty, but..." If the maps I've seen are correct, the most probable path would take the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember 1972?). There's been a lot of rain lately, streams are running high, the ground is pretty well saturated. It wouldn't take a whole lot more to flood the Juniata. Rain falling to the west of Cresson could flood the Conemaugh. All told, both the old Middle and Pittsburgh Divisons are standing in harm's way, harm which may arrive sooner than Friday. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:54:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? --part1_f8.3089fc26.2c9a3206_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This makes perfect sense due to the heavy rains predicted. The rule is that locomotives, whether diesel or electric, can only operate with water over the rail up to 3". By the time there is standing water in the roadbed (ballast) operations will be at a crawl. At 3" over the rail, operations are prohibited. Also, since most of the east coast has had a wet summer, with the heavy rains the sub-roadbed and roadbed will saturate very quickly to an unstable condition. Other considerations are signaling systems going down and providing for stranded trains. In short, the cancellations are very prudent move on Amtrak's part. Keep in mind we also live in lawsuit happy times. Would you want to take the chance on an accident? "Nuff" said. If you subscribe to Trains magazines, pull out the articles on the flooding in the central part of the country back in the late 90's. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_f8.3089fc26.2c9a3206_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This makes perfect sense due to the heavy rains= predicted. The rule is that locomotives, whether diesel o= r electric, can only operate with water over the rail up to 3". By the= time there is standing water in the roadbed (ballast) operations will be at= a crawl. At 3" over the rail, operations are prohibited. =20= Also, since most of the east coast has had a wet summer, with the heavy rain= s the sub-roadbed and roadbed will saturate very quickly to an unstable cond= ition. Other considerations are signaling systems going down and provi= ding for stranded trains. In short, the cancellations are very prudent= move on Amtrak's part.

Keep in mind we also live in lawsuit happy times. Would you wan= t to take the chance on an accident? "Nuff" said.
If you subscribe to Trains magazines, pull out the articles on the fl= ooding in the central part of the country back in the late 90's.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_f8.3089fc26.2c9a3206_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Thompson Subject: [PRR] Photos of the brick "C" tower in Johnstown --0-45295045-1063835745=:20773 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know where I can find photos of the "C" interlocking tower building that was replaced by the current concrete block tower? Triumph 1 only has photos of the wood structure replaced by the brick structure and the concrete block structure that replaced the brick structure. Any help is greatly appreciated. -- Keith Thompson --0-45295045-1063835745=:20773 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Does anyone know where I can find photos of the "C" interlocking tower building that was replaced by the current concrete block tower? Triumph 1 only has photos of the wood structure replaced by the brick structure and the concrete block structure that replaced the brick structure. Any help is greatly appreciated. -- Keith Thompson

--0-45295045-1063835745=:20773-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:00:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Hurricanes'n PRR Trains --part1_16e.23c84301.2c9a338e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the replies to "Does this make sense" indicated the current storm's center would travel up through west-central Penna., Altoona. Do any of us old timers remember the storm track of the hurricane back in 55? Recall the Pennsy and the Reading had detour runs off of the DL&W, Erie and LV. I know the Reading took a lot of damage from that storm and assume the Pennsy was also fairly hard hit. Anyone have the details on the Pennsy damage from that storm? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_16e.23c84301.2c9a338e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the replies to "Does this make sense" in= dicated the current storm's center would travel up through west-central Penn= a., Altoona. Do any of us old timers remember the storm track of= the hurricane back in 55? Recall the Pennsy and the Reading had detou= r runs off of the DL&W, Erie and LV. I know the Reading took a lot= of damage from that storm and assume the Pennsy was also fairly hard hit.&n= bsp; Anyone have the details on the Pennsy damage from that storm?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_16e.23c84301.2c9a338e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:04:06 EDT Subject: Re: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? --part1_167.25a6a2f5.2c9a3456_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks this is a link to the National Weather Service's Hurricane Center website. Believe what you read here before you believe what they tell you in the media. Click on 'maps' then '5-day forecast'. National Hurricane Center / Tropical Prediction Center The URL: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ The site is updated several times a day. Good luck, Bill --part1_167.25a6a2f5.2c9a3456_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks this is a link to the National Weather Service'= s Hurricane Center website. Believe what you read here before you beli= eve what they tell you in the media. Click on 'maps' then '5-day forec= ast'.
National Hurricane Center / Tropical Pr= ediction Center
The URL:
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/
The site is updated several times a day. Good luck, Bill --part1_167.25a6a2f5.2c9a3456_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? In 1972, huge portions of the Penn Central's (along with every major railroad in the northeast) mainlines were wiped clean off the map. I'm sure most of us remember seeing photos of the Shocks Mill Bridge and what was left of the Port Road. The line between Baltimore and York was gone forever. So I guess from the railroad's point of view, YES.. it does make sense. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/17/03 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:29:11 -0700 Jerry: Many of the surviving D78's were rebuilt into semi-streamlined D78D and D78F in the 1952-1954 period. See the recent Keystone article on that subject. I think these are the likely choice for the lower ranking Blue Ribbon trains such as the Manhattan Limited. Bob Kessler > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Power on Manhattan Limited > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:57:29 -0400 > > Thanks for the many responses yesterday that power for the 1954 > Manhattan Limited would most surely have been EMD E units. I'm going to > assign an ABA set of Life Like E7's. The B unit is a dummy and will > have a Soundtraxx system (yes, it fits!). > > What is the general opinion on what type of diner would have been on > this train? An older D78-something? Or a newer D82-something or > D85-something? Obviously not a twin unit diner train. Maybe one of the > D85A's built by Budd in the same timeframe as the P85b's that were on > this train? > > As for the Alco PA's, I only have three sets. Since EMD power was > predominate by 1954, guess I'll put them on the north-south routes. I > do want to use them in passenger service; and I have FA sets for > freight service. (Can't wait for Hirsimaki's "Black Gold Black > Diamonds, Vol.3" as it will cover the 1954 era. Anyone know the status?) > > On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 02:14 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > I'm putting together train #23, The Manhattan Limited, as of 1954. > > > > What power might be appropriate for this train, for Harrisburg and > > points west? > > > > It wasn't a "first tier" train, so I'm thinking it may have had other > > than EMD E units. > > > > What about an Alco PA/PB/PA lashup? > > > > "Makeup of Trains, New York Division" shows: > > B60b > > B60b > > B60b > > X29 > > B60b > > P85b > > P85b > > P85b > > P85b > > P85b > > Diner > > PS13L > > PS21B > > HW 12-1 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:33:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Express" trains -------------------------------1063838035 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Sorry I was not clearer in my description. The short siding was at the South end of Newark Station. I am guessing that it was off of 3 or 4 track. RAY BURGHART -------------------------------1063838035 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John,

Sorry I was not clearer in my descriptio= n. The short siding was at the South end of Newark Station. I am guessing th= at it was off of 3 or 4 track.

RAY BURGHART

-------------------------------1063838035-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:09:35 EDT Subject: Re: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? --part1_1c4.f0d4c85.2c9a51bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/2003 6:08:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, BillyDee53@aol.com writes: > Folks this is a link to the National Weather Service's Hurricane Center > website. Believe what you read here before you believe what they tell you in > the media. Click on 'maps' then '5-day forecast'. > National Hurricane Center / Tropical Prediction Center > The URL: > http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ > Another good source is www.accuweather.com. Lee Rainey --part1_1c4.f0d4c85.2c9a51bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/17/2003 6:08:53 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, BillyDee53@aol.com writes:

Folks this is a link to the Nat= ional Weather Service's Hurricane Center website. Believe what you rea= d here before you believe what they tell you in the media. Click on 'm= aps' then '5-day forecast'.
National Hurricane Center / Tropical Pr= ediction Center
The URL:
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/

Another good source is www.accuweather.com.

Lee Rainey --part1_1c4.f0d4c85.2c9a51bf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:31:24 EDT Subject: Isabel and PRR Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? --part1_7c.3d05f4be.2c9a56dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/2003 5:49:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > On the other hand, I've seen and heard forecasts predicting it will > enter PA Thursday afternoon or evening. Most forecasts include the > phrase "Too soon to predict with certainty, but..." > > If the maps I've seen are correct, the most probable path would take > the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind > strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember > 1972?). > > There's been a lot of rain lately, streams are running high, the > ground is pretty well saturated. It wouldn't take a whole lot more to > flood the Juniata. Rain falling to the west of Cresson could flood > the Conemaugh. > The current AccuWeather prediction for Harrisburg is that rain will begin about 7pm Thursday night and continue almost without a break through the following afternoon. The most probable storm track is indeed well west in the state. On Wednesday afternoon, AccuWeather had this to say about Isabel's potential impact: Unlucky Combination of Factors Means Serious Impact of Hurricane Isabel Likely To Be Felt Far Inland Storm Could Cause Widespread Flooding, Wind Damage, Says AccuWeather STATE COLLEGE, PA, September 17, 2003 - AccuWeather, Inc. (www.accuweather.com) today warned residents throughout the mid-Atlantic region to take appropriate precautions in the face of Hurricane Isabel. Damage from the storm is likely to be substantial because of the unlucky combination of a number of factors that will worsen Isabel's impact. Most hurricanes that touch the mid-Atlantic region originate in the south and move northeasterly, pushing water along and parallel to the coast. However, Hurricane Isabel is approaching the coast from the southeast. This almost-perpendicular track will have the effect of pushing water towards the mainland. Thus, Isabel is likely to produce areas of twelve-foot storm surge that will be exacerbated by violent wave action. Indeed, waves could reach the height of forty feet off the Virginia capes, while waves twenty feet high could occur along parts of the south Jersey shore, where they have the potential to do major damage to beachfront structures. The storm's track will also cause a special problem in Chesapeake Bay. Oriented north and south, the Chesapeake narrows like a funnel at the north end, where it is fed by major rivers. These rivers, already full from the wet summer, will be trying to empty their water into the Chesapeake at the same time that Isabel pushes ocean water north up the bay into the narrow end of the funnel. The likely outcome is serious flooding, with the lower portions of the rivers, the northern bay shore, and Baltimore Harbor as likely candidates. Delaware Bay may experience similar effects. Flood damage in general will be at its worst west of the storm track, although significant damage is also likely up to 100 miles east of the track. Since the winds of a hurricane flow counterclockwise around the eye of the storm, Isabel will produce stronger winds to the east of its path than to the west. For a portion of the storm's track, this pattern will bring winds directly off the ocean, where they have not been slowed by buildings, terrain and other resistance. Thus, coastal areas should expect unusually strong winds, even at some distance from the center of the storm, and wind damage will be worst east of the storm track. High winds, accompanied by heavy rain, are likely to extend as far north as Pennsylvania and New York. Philadelphia should expect wind gusts up to 60 mph and 1-3 inches of rain, with the worst of the storm Friday morning. New York City may see up to 60 mph gusts and 1-2 inches of rain, with the worst of the storm on Friday. Isabel comes in the wake of an unusually wet summer. Parts of New Jersey and Pennsylvania received up to ten inches of rain earlier this week, and most areas in the storm path have seen months of above average precipitation. The resulting saturated soil will have loosened the grip of tree roots, and the fact that trees are still in full leaf will magnify the force that the storm's wind will exert on trunks and limbs. Widespread fallen trees and downed tree limbs should be expected for up to 150 miles east of the storm track and up to 50 miles west, as far north as Pennsylvania. A Category 2 storm such as Isabel packs winds of 96-110 mph along the storm path, an intensity that may come as a surprise to residents of areas which rarely receive hurricanes. AccuWeather Chief Forecaster Elliot Abrams offered this explanation of what it would feel like to be outdoors in such a wind: "For a person of average height, the sensation would be like having a football linebacker fall on you," cautioned Abrams. "If you are anywhere from North Carolina to New York, we strongly urge you to visit www.accuweather.com for a detailed list of steps to take before and during the storm, as well as for the latest information on the hurricane's probable path and intensity." About AccuWeather and AccuWeather.com AccuWeather, The World's Weather Authority , provides a portfolio of products and services through the airwaves, via the Internet, in print, and behind the scenes that benefit hundreds of millions of people worldwide. AccuWeather services 40,000 paying customers in media, business, government and institutions, and millions more through AccuWeather.com. AccuWeather also provides content onto more than 600 Internet sites including CNN Interactive, ABC's owned and operated stations, The Associated Press, The Washington Post and The New York Times. --part1_7c.3d05f4be.2c9a56dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/17/2003 5:49:04 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:

On the other hand, I've seen an= d heard forecasts predicting it will
enter PA Thursday afternoon or evening. Most forecasts include the
phrase "Too soon to predict with certainty, but..."

If the maps I've seen are correct, the most probable path would take
the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind
strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember
1972?).

There's been a lot of rain lately, streams are running high, the
ground is pretty well saturated. It wouldn't take a whole lot more to
flood the Juniata. Rain falling to the west of Cresson could flood
the Conemaugh.

The current AccuWeather prediction for Harrisburg is that rain will begin ab= out 7pm Thursday night and continue almost without a break through the follo= wing afternoon. The most probable storm track is indeed well west in the sta= te.

On Wednesday afternoon, AccuWeather had this to say about Isabel's potential= impact:

Unlucky Combination of Factors Means Serious Impact of Hurricane Isabel L= ikely To Be Felt Far Inland

Storm Could Cause Widespread Flooding, Wind Damage, Says AccuWeather<= BR>
STATE COLLEGE, PA, September 17, 2003 - AccuWeather, Inc. (www.accuweather.c= om) today warned residents throughout the mid-Atlantic region to take approp= riate precautions in the face of Hurricane Isabel. Damage from the storm is=20= likely to be substantial because of the unlucky combination of a number of f= actors that will worsen Isabel's impact.
Most hurricanes that touch the mid-Atlantic region originate in the sout= h and move northeasterly, pushing water along and parallel to the coast. How= ever, Hurricane Isabel is approaching the coast from the southeast. This alm= ost-perpendicular track will have the effect of pushing water towards the ma= inland. Thus, Isabel is likely to produce areas of twelve-foot storm surge t= hat will be exacerbated by violent wave action. Indeed, waves could reach th= e height of forty feet off the Virginia capes, while waves twenty feet high=20= could occur along parts of the south Jersey shore, where they have the poten= tial to do major damage to beachfront structures.
The storm's track will also cause a special problem in Chesapeake Bay. O= riented north and south, the Chesapeake narrows like a funnel at the north e= nd, where it is fed by major rivers. These rivers, already full from the wet= summer, will be trying to empty their water into the Chesapeake at the same= time that Isabel pushes ocean water north up the bay into the narrow end of= the funnel. The likely outcome is serious flooding, with the lower portions= of the rivers, the northern bay shore, and Baltimore Harbor as likely candi= dates. Delaware Bay may experience similar effects. Flood damage in general=20= will be at its worst west of the storm track, although significant damage is= also likely up to 100 miles east of the track.
       Since the winds of a hurricane flow cou= nterclockwise around the eye of the storm, Isabel will produce stronger wind= s to the east of its path than to the west. For a portion of the storm's tra= ck, this pattern will bring winds directly off the ocean, where they have no= t been slowed by buildings, terrain and other resistance. Thus, coastal area= s should expect unusually strong winds, even at some distance from the cente= r of the storm, and wind damage will be worst east of the storm track. High=20= winds, accompanied by heavy rain, are likely to extend as far north as Penns= ylvania and New York. Philadelphia should expect wind gusts up to 60 mph a= nd 1-3 inches of rain, with the worst of the storm Friday morning. New York=20= City may see up to 60 mph gusts and 1-2 inches of rain, with the worst of th= e storm on Friday.
       Isabel comes in the wake of an unusuall= y wet summer. Parts of New Jersey and Pennsylvania received up to ten inches= of rain earlier this week, and most areas in the storm path have seen month= s of above average precipitation. The resulting saturated soil will have loo= sened the grip of tree roots, and the fact that trees are still in full leaf= will magnify the force that the storm's wind will exert on trunks and limbs= . Widespread fallen trees and downed tree limbs should be expected for up to= 150 miles east of the storm track and up to 50 miles west, as far north as=20= Pennsylvania.
       A Category 2 storm such as Isabel packs= winds of 96-110 mph along the storm path, an intensity that may come as a s= urprise to residents of areas which rarely receive hurricanes. AccuWeather C= hief Forecaster Elliot Abrams offered this explanation of what it would feel= like to be outdoors in such a wind: "For a person of average height, the se= nsation would be like having a football linebacker fall on you," cautioned A= brams. "If you are anywhere from North Carolina to New York, we strongly urg= e you to visit www.accuweather.com for a detailed list of steps to take befo= re and during the storm, as well as for the latest information on the hurric= ane's probable path and intensity."

About AccuWeather and AccuWeather.com
AccuWeather, The World's Weather Authority , provides a portfolio of product= s and services through the airwaves, via the Internet, in print, and behind=20= the scenes that benefit hundreds of millions of people worldwide. Accu= Weather services 40,000 paying customers in media, business, government and=20= institutions, and millions more through AccuWeather.com. AccuWeather also pr= ovides content onto more than 600 Internet sites including CNN Interactive,=20= ABC's owned and operated stations, The Associated Press, The Washingto= n Post and The New York Times.

--part1_7c.3d05f4be.2c9a56dc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:03:05 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Number of List Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2-or Hugo, I assume you are on the OTrains list, but in case not, the URL is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Otrains/ That should be a good start. There are also several other PRR and NYC lists on Yahoo that discuss both model and prototype details of these railroads: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYC-RR/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYC-Railroad/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ Steve Bartlett Hpallesen wrote: Hi PRR fans, .... I would like to find a site where less non 0-scale posts arrived in my e-mail ! .... Please help me with some ideas, either here or direct to me: h2pallesen@wanadoo.fr .... Regards Hugo B. Pallesen . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:14:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? --part1_165.25325044.2c9a60d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/17/2003 5:49:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > If the maps I've seen are correct, the most probable path would take > the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind > strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember > 1972?). > Most recent (9PM Wednesday) forecast is for upto 12 inches of rain. Rich Orr --part1_165.25325044.2c9a60d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 09/17/2003 5:49:09 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:

If the maps I've seen are corre= ct, the most probable path would take
the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind
strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember
1972?).

Most recent (9PM Wednesday) forecast is for upto 12 inches of rain.
Rich Orr --part1_165.25325044.2c9a60d8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Number of List Participants Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:30:46 -0500 There have been a lot of posts lately, which is great. But what bothers me is when messages are cross posted to both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX. Is there anybody who is subscribed to one list and not the other? I don't understand the need for both lists, and it gets really silly when a lot of messages are cross posted to both. If these lists truly served different functions, there wouldn't be the need to post to both. Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:44:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 09:30 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > There have been a lot of posts lately, which is great. But what > bothers me > is when messages are cross posted to both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX. Is > there > anybody who is subscribed to one list and not the other? I don't > understand > the need for both lists, and it gets really silly when a lot of > messages are > cross posted to both. If these lists truly served different functions, > there wouldn't be the need to post to both. > > Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. I totally agree. Neither list has all the content and, unfortunately, there is no "universal archive" for people to search in. PRR-talk was established in 1996. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7-units on passenger trains Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:51:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C37D65.D3991620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageBill, This is very interesting - I had never heard this comment about the = FP7's before.=20 So where were they trying to use them that the 77 mph top speed was not = fast enough to maintain=20 schedules? Out west? Do you know at what point in time did they make = this determination? Thanks, Jack Consoli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Volkmer=20 To: Ken Nesbitt=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 4:48 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights The FP-7s came close to that idea but at least on the Pennsy the FP-7s = were geared too low to maintain passenger schedules and were relegated = to Mail and Express trains for the most part and then only at Christmas = Time. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C37D65.D3991620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Bill,

This is very interesting - I had never = heard this=20 comment about the FP7's before.

So where were they trying to use them = that the 77=20 mph top speed was not fast enough to maintain

schedules? Out west? Do you know at = what point in=20 time did they make this determination?

Thanks,

Jack Consoli

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Volkmer

To: Ken=20 Nesbitt

Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, September 12, = 2003 4:48=20 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on=20 freights

The FP-7s came close to that idea but at least on the Pennsy the = FP-7s=20 were geared too low to maintain passenger schedules and were relegated = to Mail=20 and Express trains for the most part and then only at Christmas = Time.

------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C37D65.D3991620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] FP7-units on passenger trains Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:00:03 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C37DBA.E0D4FE30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The gearing on the FP-7s caused them to take literally FOREVER to get from say 0 to 60mph. I rode one on a mail train from Harrisburg to Altoona one time and I didn't think we'd ever see Lewistown during the same millenium! -----Original Message----- From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:51 PM To: Bill Volkmer Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7-units on passenger trains Bill, This is very interesting - I had never heard this comment about the FP7's before. So where were they trying to use them that the 77 mph top speed was not fast enough to maintain schedules? Out west? Do you know at what point in time did they make this determination? Thanks, Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: Ken Nesbitt Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 4:48 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights The FP-7s came close to that idea but at least on the Pennsy the FP-7s were geared too low to maintain passenger schedules and were relegated to Mail and Express trains for the most part and then only at Christmas Time. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C37DBA.E0D4FE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

The=20 gearing on the FP-7s caused them to take literally FOREVER to get from = say 0 to=20 60mph. I rode one on a mail train from Harrisburg to Altoona one = time and=20 I didn't think we'd ever see Lewistown during the same=20 millenium!

-----Original Message-----
From: = jconsoli=20 [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September = 17, 2003=20 9:51 PM
To: Bill Volkmer
Cc:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7-units on passenger=20 trains

Bill,

This is very interesting - I had = never heard this=20 comment about the FP7's before.

So where were they trying to use them = that the 77=20 mph top speed was not fast enough to maintain

schedules? Out west? Do you know at = what point in=20 time did they make this determination?

Thanks,

Jack Consoli

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Volkmer

To: Ken Nesbitt

Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, September 12, = 2003 4:48=20 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on = freights

The FP-7s came close to that idea but at least on the Pennsy = the FP-7s=20 were geared too low to maintain passenger schedules and were = relegated to=20 Mail and Express trains for the most part and then only at Christmas = Time.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C37DBA.E0D4FE30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:49:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/18/03 --part1_148.193801e4.2c9b03d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/18/03 1:12:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? > by List, Yep, sure does. I lived in York County in 1972 (still do) and saw the destruction first hand. A friend and I talked our way past the watchman on Shocks Bridge, stationed there to keep sight seeer's off the dangerous bridge. We walked out to the "end" of the west side of the bridge and took some pictures. I also saw, up close and personal, the destruction caused in several area's between York and New Freedom. The power of water is absolutely incredible! Bob Martin --part1_148.193801e4.2c9b03d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/18/0= 3 1:12:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Re: [PRR] Does this=20= make sense?
by <zootowerpr= r@webtv.net>

List,

Yep, sure does. I lived in York County in 1972 (still do) and saw=20= the destruction first hand. A friend and I talked our way past the wat= chman on Shocks Bridge, stationed there to keep sight seeer's off the danger= ous bridge. We walked out to the "end" of the west side of the bridge=20= and took some pictures. I also saw, up close and personal, the destruc= tion caused in several area's between York and New Freedom. The power=20= of water is absolutely incredible!

Bob Martin --part1_148.193801e4.2c9b03d4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:52:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] FP7 units on passenger trains --part1_72.31c801e1.2c9b047f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've always been told that acceleration and top speed are inversely proportional. A unit geared for lower speeds theoretically should have better acceleration. Interesting comments about the PRR FPs taking forever to accelerate a train. I never saw any on passenger trains, only in the yard at Fort Wayne in the late 70s or early 80s. George Payne --part1_72.31c801e1.2c9b047f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've always been told that acceleration and top speed=20= are inversely proportional. A unit geared for lower speeds theoretical= ly should have better acceleration. Interesting comments about the PRR= FPs taking forever to accelerate a train. I never saw any on passenge= r trains, only in the yard at Fort Wayne in the late 70s or early 80s.

George Payne --part1_72.31c801e1.2c9b047f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:31:51 +0000 I'm not suggesting that they run through the storm and I understand the ramifications of the rain and flooding. I was commenting on canceling service two days before it would get there at the earliest. Especially in light of their need for funds. They could have advised people to check with Amtrak on those days and planned to run if possible. They are in a service business. Unfortunately they have developed a typical government run mentality of eating at the taxpayer trough and providing minimal service IMHO. If they truely wanted business they would do everyting to accomadate the public. This reeks of a who cares attitude. > > In 1972, huge portions of the Penn Central's (along with every > major railroad in the northeast) mainlines were wiped clean off the map. > I'm sure most of us remember seeing photos of the Shocks Mill Bridge and > what was left of the Port Road. The line between Baltimore and York was > gone forever. > So I guess from the railroad's point of view, YES.. it does make > sense. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:53:21 -0400 From: davep Subject: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? > If they truely wanted business they would do everyting to accomadate > the public. This reeks of a who cares attitude. Perhaps. Or, perhaps, of a 'we care' attitude. Ponder the impact, direct, and PR, of several trainfuls of passengers 'stuck between nowhere and nowhere else again', by water or other stuck trains, or.... Ponder that Washington DC is Shut Down, largely, today, Thursday. Ponder that the USAF flew a/c out of the area. Ponder the fate of the FEC trying to run trains thru a hurricane. Perhaps accommodating the public includes not leading them into danger. Perhaps it means choosing to keep equipment where it can be used for the FUTURE schedules. (cf USAF repositioning a/c out of storm path. OK. I distinctly recall the second '55 hurricane. Going down to the hillside overlooking the river. Watching freight cars, houses, etc, float by. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:04:06 -0400 Listers The one thing you all seem to be overlooking is that when a hurricane is imminent, ALL the crossing gates must be taken down and stowed away. This cannot be done until ALL the trains have been stored on high ground. Flood waters are DEVASTATING to journal bearings and traction motors. In the case of commuter trains, you cannot haul people to work in the morning if you are going to remove the crossing gates before they go home and leave them stranded at their work. There is more to hurricanes on a railroad than might meet the eye of the peanut gallery. Bill V. Florida railroader -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of davep Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:53 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? > If they truely wanted business they would do everyting to accomadate > the public. This reeks of a who cares attitude. Perhaps. Or, perhaps, of a 'we care' attitude. Ponder the impact, direct, and PR, of several trainfuls of passengers 'stuck between nowhere and nowhere else again', by water or other stuck trains, or.... Ponder that Washington DC is Shut Down, largely, today, Thursday. Ponder that the USAF flew a/c out of the area. Ponder the fate of the FEC trying to run trains thru a hurricane. Perhaps accommodating the public includes not leading them into danger. Perhaps it means choosing to keep equipment where it can be used for the FUTURE schedules. (cf USAF repositioning a/c out of storm path. OK. I distinctly recall the second '55 hurricane. Going down to the hillside overlooking the river. Watching freight cars, houses, etc, float by. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:46:03 EDT Subject: Re: Isabel Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? In a message dated 9/18/03 2:08:44 PM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << The one thing you all seem to be overlooking is that when a hurricane is imminent, ALL the crossing gates must be taken down and stowed away. >> ********* Bill - Is that really the case? The way people in cars race trains here in Texas, I assume that the RRs would rather take the cost of the damage to some (but not all) crossing gates than the cost associated with, "No, there wasn't a gate there yesterday when I drove through, that's why I was startled by the red lights and decided to drive forward to get out of the way." Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:00:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Hurricane Tangents From: Jerry Britton Folks, let's try to get back on target. The thread about removing crossing gates, potential flooding, etc., is more suitable for other lists, like the RAILROAD list. It certainly would be suitable to discuss here what happened to the PRR during hurricanes prior to 1968, or perhaps former PRR landmarks that actually get damaged by current catastrophes, but speculation is a waste of bandwidth. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:55:46 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C37DE4.2D667250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow you just brought up a whole bunch of olfactory, visual and mental = memories. For a couple of summers while in college my father arranged = for me to work for the LIRR as what I think was called an extra extra = clerk. Basicly I filled in when the regular clerk went on vacation. One = of my distinct pleasures was to work in the lost and found of Penn = station in "The City". The lost and found was actually located between = two of the tracks used be the LIRR. I remember the dinner breaks at = Nedicks and Deli City a good thing, the smell of sweaty people on those = hot humid days of summer, a not so good thing and as it was part of my = duties to remove the belonging of the homeless people who used the 25 = cent lockers to store their stuff; I remember how the locker contents = would smell as I removed it. Forgive me if I don't describe that smell . = A very bad thing Bill Pokorny ----- Original Message -----=20 From: aurora7@juno.com=20 To: LeeRainey@aol.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad "Aromas" and Odors Yep, leaking steam, high humidity, the smell of newspaper print intermingled with Nedicks hotdogs. Of course, you had to be = underground at Penn Station, in New York City. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine " Going to church doesn't make you a good person any more than = standing in a garage makes you a car". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C37DE4.2D667250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wow you just brought up a whole bunch of olfactory, visual and = mental=20 memories. For a couple of summers while in college my father arranged = for me to=20 work for the LIRR as what I think was called an extra extra clerk. = Basicly I filled in when the regular clerk went on vacation. One = of my=20 distinct pleasures was to work in the lost and found of Penn station in = "The=20 City". The lost and found was actually located between two of the tracks = used be=20 the LIRR. I remember the dinner breaks at Nedicks and Deli City a good = thing,=20 the smell of sweaty people on those hot humid days of summer, a not = so good=20 thing and as it was part of my duties to remove the belonging of the = homeless=20 people who used the 25 cent lockers to store their stuff; I = remember=20 how the locker contents would smell as I removed it. Forgive me if I = don't=20 describe that smell . A very bad thing Bill = Pokorny

----- Original Message -----

From: aurora7@juno.com

To: LeeRainey@aol.com

Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 16, = 2003 5:45=20 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad = "Aromas" and=20 Odors

Yep, leaking steam, high humidity, the smell of = newspaper=20 print
intermingled with Nedicks hotdogs. Of course, you had = to be=20 underground
at Penn Station, in New York City.

Richard=20 Glueck
Peace of the Planet Farm
Winterport, Maine
" Going to = church=20 doesn't make you a good person any more than standing
in a garage = makes you=20 a=20 = car".

________________________________________________________= ________
The=20 best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the = web up=20 to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up=20 = today!

-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C37DE4.2D667250-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:11:39 -0400 From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] Re: O-2 and 3-rail list participants Hugo and Steve: I am a 3-rail O-gauge (Hi-Railer) lurker on this board. My interest is in scale-like (pay no attention to the 3 rail track under your wheels) modeling of the Pennsy in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH part of the "panhandle". I do not frequent the yahoo groups - too much e-mail, but I can highly recommend the O-Gauge Railroading (magazine) forum at www.ogaugerr.com. It is an excellent source of information for O-gauge 2 and 3 railers. My source for accurate Pennsy prototype information is, obviously, this mailing list. Best wishes, George ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "PRR-Talk" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:10:01 -0400 >PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, September 18, 2003 > > Re: Number of List Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2-or 3-railers on t > by "Stephen Bartlett" > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: Number of List Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2-or 3-railers on this list ???? >From: "Stephen Bartlett" >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:03:05 -0700 > >Hugo, > I assume you are on the OTrains list, but in case not, the URL is >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Otrains/ >That should be a good start. > >There are also several other PRR and NYC lists on Yahoo that discuss >both model and prototype details of these railroads: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYC-RR/ >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYC-Railroad/ >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ > >Steve Bartlett > >Hpallesen wrote: >Hi PRR fans, >.... >I would like to find a site where less non 0-scale posts arrived in my >e-mail ! .... >Please help me with some ideas, either here or direct to me: >h2pallesen@wanadoo.fr >.... > >Regards Hugo B. Pallesen >. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? >From: >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:14:00 EDT > > >--part1_165.25325044.2c9a60d8_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 09/17/2003 5:49:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > >> If the maps I've seen are correct, the most probable path would take >> the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind >> strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember >> 1972?). >> > >Most recent (9PM Wednesday) forecast is for upto 12 inches of rain. > >Rich Orr > >--part1_165.25325044.2c9a60d8_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 09/17/2003 5:49:09 PM Eastern Dayli= >ght Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:
>
>

: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If the maps I've seen are corre= >ct, the most probable path would take
>the storm northward through the Altoona area. Whatever the wind
>strength may be by then, the forecast is for heavy rain (remember
>1972?).
>

>
>Most recent (9PM Wednesday) forecast is for upto 12 inches of rain.� R> >
>Rich Orr > >--part1_165.25325044.2c9a60d8_boundary-- > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: RE: [PRR] Number of List Participants >From: "Andy Cich" >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:30:46 -0500 > >There have been a lot of posts lately, which is great. But what bothers me >is when messages are cross posted to both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX. Is there >anybody who is subscribed to one list and not the other? I don't understand >the need for both lists, and it gets really silly when a lot of messages are >cross posted to both. If these lists truly served different functions, >there wouldn't be the need to post to both. > >Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. > > >Andy Cich > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants >From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:44:49 -0400 > >On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 09:30 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > >> There have been a lot of posts lately, which is great. But what >> bothers me >> is when messages are cross posted to both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX. Is >> there >> anybody who is subscribed to one list and not the other? I don't >> understand >> the need for both lists, and it gets really silly when a lot of >> messages are >> cross posted to both. If these lists truly served different functions, >> there wouldn't be the need to post to both. >> >> Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. > >I totally agree. Neither list has all the content and, unfortunately, >there is no "universal archive" for people to search in. PRR-talk was >established in 1996. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7-units on passenger trains >From: "jconsoli" >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:51:19 -0400 > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C37D65.D3991620 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="utf-8" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >MessageBill, > >This is very interesting - I had never heard this comment about the = >FP7's before.=20 >So where were they trying to use them that the 77 mph top speed was not = >fast enough to maintain=20 >schedules? Out west? Do you know at what point in time did they make = >this determination? > >Thanks, > >Jack Consoli > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Bill Volkmer=20 > To: Ken Nesbitt=20 > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 4:48 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on freights > > > The FP-7s came close to that idea but at least on the Pennsy the FP-7s = >were geared too low to maintain passenger schedules and were relegated = >to Mail and Express trains for the most part and then only at Christmas = >Time. > > >------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C37D65.D3991620 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="utf-8" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > >Message >http-equiv=3DContent-Type>Transitional//EN"> > > > > >

Bill,

�

This is very interesting - I had never = >heard this=20 >comment about the FP7's before.

So where were they trying to use them = >that the 77=20 >mph top speed was not fast enough to maintain

schedules? Out west? Do you know at = >what point in=20 >time did they make this determination?

�

Thanks,

�

Jack Consoli

�

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > title=3Dbvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com>Bill Volkmer >
To: href=3D"mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com" = >title=3Dken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com>Ken=20 > Nesbitt
>
Cc: href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com"=20 > title=3Dprr-talk@dsop.com>prr-talk@dsop.com
>
Sent: Friday, September 12, = >2003 4:48=20 > PM
>
Subject: RE: [PRR] E-units on=20 > freights
>

>
The FP-7s came close to that idea but at least on the Pennsy the = >FP-7s=20 > were geared too low to maintain passenger schedules and were relegated = >to Mail=20 > and Express trains for the most part and then only at Christmas = >Time.
>
�

> >------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C37D65.D3991620-- > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bowser stock car Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:33:56 +0000 What class is the Bowser stock car please? Thank you ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:44:31 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser stock car They make both the K-9 (40ft ex X31) and the K-11 (50ft ex X32) in HO. Is it the same in N? Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ndbprr@att.net wrote: > What class is the Bowser stock car please? Thank you > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:45:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser stock car From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 02:33 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > What class is the Bowser stock car please? Thank you K9 and K11. http://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/k9_k11/k9_k11.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:55:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser stock car From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 02:44 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > They make both the K-9 (40ft ex X31) and the K-11 (50ft ex X32) in > HO. Is > it the same in N? They haven't done either in N (yet). My opinion is they shouldn't consider it for N any time soon. The GLa, F30, and N8 would be far more popular choices. Then a few of the box cars, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:26:47 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Hello. PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- 1) would they have had trainphone antennas installed? If so, would they have been installed the same as the RS3's? 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? Thanks in advance for any info, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:40:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? From the MP229 in effect in 1954 (available on the "PRR in 1954" CD from Merchandise Service!), all six were assigned to the Maryland Division. 8449-8451 were equiped for back-up service and had a whistle and acknowledger. All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you wanted to know!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:35:14 -0400 How about the crashing sounds of slack running in and out, for whatever reason=2E Bob Zoeller Original Message: ----------------- From: William Bigler wbigler@stny=2Err=2Ecom The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad sounds=2E (bigsnip)You get the idea - let's hear 'em! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:14:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but unmistakeable. Hopefully when it's run its course I'll summarize this one two. Some of the stories were especially good. To lead off: 1. The crash of two freight cars coupling together at night a bit too hard, when all was silent beforehand. 2. A steam freight pulling out of a siding accelerating with a long train, again at night, with no wheelsips at all. 3. A steam freight pulling out of a siding struggling to start a long train with a lot of backing to take slack, trying again, finally getting moving, but lots of wheel slips all the way up to speed. 4. A communicating whistle in a steam cab, the hiss of the reverse lever being moved forward, hiss of air being released, bell starting, two whistle blasts, safety valves letting loose, and deafening exhausts starting up and slowly building up to speed and one continuous roar. 5. An Alemite grease gun in a yard. 6. A brakeman pulling the air drain on air tanks on cars as he walks a cut of cars just set out. You get the idea - let's hear 'em! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:30:28 +0000 > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > > > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > > From the MP229 in effect in 1954 (available on the "PRR in 1954" CD > from Merchandise Service!), all six were assigned to the Maryland > Division. > > 8449-8451 were equiped for back-up service and had a whistle and > acknowledger. > > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:10:46 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Jeff, The Withers Publications on the ALCo Roadswitchers have great photos of these units and will give you a good insight into their assignments. Wished I could be of more help but I am at work and don't have the book in front of me. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:30:28 +0000 > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > > > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > > From the MP229 in effect in 1954 (available on the "PRR in 1954" CD > from Merchandise Service!), all six were assigned to the Maryland > Division. > > 8449-8451 were equiped for back-up service and had a whistle and > acknowledger. > > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:14:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C37DFF.EBA816E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and = so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on = railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but = unmistakeable. Hopefully when it's run its course I'll summarize this = one two. Some of the stories were especially good. To lead off: 1. The crash of two freight cars coupling together at night a bit too = hard, when all was silent beforehand. 2. A steam freight pulling out of a siding accelerating with a long = train, again at night, with no wheelsips at all. 3. A steam freight pulling out of a siding struggling to start a long = train with a lot of backing to take slack, trying again, finally getting = moving, but lots of wheel slips all the way up to speed. 4. A communicating whistle in a steam cab, the hiss of the reverse = lever being moved forward, hiss of air being released, bell starting, = two whistle blasts, safety valves letting loose, and deafening exhausts = starting up and slowly building up to speed and one continuous roar. 5. An Alemite grease gun in a yard. 6. A brakeman pulling the air drain on air tanks on cars as he walks a = cut of cars just set out. You get the idea - let's hear 'em! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C37DFF.EBA816E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The thread on railroad aromas and = smells elicited=20 so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I = thought I'd=20 start one on railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot = are=20 subtle, but unmistakeable. Hopefully when it's run its course I'll = summarize this one two. Some of the stories were especially = good. To=20 lead off:

1. The crash of two freight cars = coupling=20 together at night a bit too hard, when all was silent = beforehand.

2. A steam freight pulling out of = a siding=20 accelerating with a long train, again at night, with no wheelsips at=20 all.

3. A steam freight pulling out of = a siding=20 struggling to start a long train with a lot of backing to take slack, = trying=20 again, finally getting moving, but lots of wheel slips all the way up to = speed.

4. A communicating whistle in a = steam cab,=20 the hiss of the reverse lever being moved forward, hiss of air being = released,=20 bell starting, two whistle blasts, safety valves letting loose, and = deafening=20 exhausts starting up and slowly building up to speed and one continuous=20 roar.

5. An Alemite grease gun in a=20 yard.

6. A brakeman pulling the air = drain on air=20 tanks on cars as he walks a cut of cars just set out.

You get the idea - let's hear = 'em!

Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats = NY
Modeling PRR=20 Renovo &
Williamsport=20 WWII

------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C37DFF.EBA816E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:30:28 +0000 > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > > > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > > From the MP229 in effect in 1954 (available on the "PRR in 1954" CD > from Merchandise Service!), all six were assigned to the Maryland > Division. > > 8449-8451 were equiped for back-up service and had a whistle and > acknowledger. > > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:38:58 -0400 Jeff, In the 7/1/57 MP229 (Freely available on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/MP229_070157_150mono.pdf ) only 5 out of the 6 (8447-8451) are listed as assigned to the Chesapeake Region. The 8446 has been reassigned to the Philadelphia Region. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:41 PM > To: jeff@pennsyrr.com > Cc: PRR Talk List > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions > > > On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > > > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > > From the MP229 in effect in 1954 (available on the "PRR in 1954" CD > from Merchandise Service!), all six were assigned to the Maryland > Division. > > 8449-8451 were equiped for back-up service and had a whistle and > acknowledger. > > All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you > wanted to know!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:14:00 -0400 They were all assigned to the Baltimore area. They were equipped with MU in the early 1960s and reassigned to the Altoona area. They were found in the Renovo area in the mid 1960s after the renumbering occurred. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:41 PM To: jeff@pennsyrr.com Cc: PRR Talk List Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? From the MP229 in effect in 1954 (available on the "PRR in 1954" CD from Merchandise Service!), all six were assigned to the Maryland Division. 8449-8451 were equiped for back-up service and had a whistle and acknowledger. All six were in the car of road foreman Guy A. Harding. (More than you wanted to know!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:44:29 +0000 Jeff and the List: >From what I have gathered, these units did not have inductive train phone antennea. I have never seen a photo of them equipped as such. I think that they were not equipped for MU but I am not 100% sure of that. While others have contributed that these units spent a part of thier lives in the Baltimore area, photos have indicated that they did wander the system. I think it is in Don Ball's book "Pennsylvania Railroad -- 1940's and 1950's" or one of Bob Yanosey's first volumes of Pennsy Diesel Years, but there is a photo of 8448 flat switching cars in Hawthone yard in Indianapolis (circa 1950's). Hence, this small fleet was not exclusively assigned just to one area all of thier lives but were moved around. However, I think it was not widespread and the Indy assignment may have been short term. I hope that this helps. Ted Andrews >From: Jeff Warner >Reply-To: jeff@pennsyrr.com >To: PRR Talk List >Subject: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions >Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:26:47 -0400 > >Hello. > >PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > >1) would they have had trainphone antennas installed? If so, would they >have been installed the same as the RS3's? > >2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > >Thanks in advance for any info, > >Jeff Warner > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:58:10 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds While writer Thomas Wolfe wrote that only Penn Station was large enough to hold the sound of time, I'd have to respectfully disagree and say that an open interlocking tower is also a good candidate. I've had the opportunity to visit Cork, Harris, State, Rockville, Mifflin, Lewis, Spruce, Alto, SO, and several on B&O around the Pittsburgh area. Just visiting a tower for a period longer than, say, 15 or 20 minutes, gave you a tangible sense of the passage of time, which might be something close to the "sound of time." The sounds, the rituals, and the cycles were universal, and went something like this: + The operator getting the call (on the company phone) from the next tower with a lineup. This involved a pre-arrranged number of rings for each tower or location. The operator pressing a foot-activated treadle to talk and releasing the treadle to listen. Hearing the alternating click and hum as the conversation went back and forth. + The operator taking dictation and recording "19" orders from a dispatcher, then reading it back "that's seven-naught-two..." and closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 a.m., RGL (the practice on initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's initials while others used the operator's.) + The annunciator bell, usually loud but sometimes with a dull thud from paper being stuffed into it to keep it from resonating too long. When the bell rang, the tension in the air kicked up a notch, because of the implied imminent arrival of a train. + The soft whirring of the timer on the interlocking plant, after the operator set up a route, to keep switches from being thrown under a train. + The approach and passage of the train. At night, the sound was not actually louder but usually seemed so perhaps because of the more humid night air (in summer, that is), plus the lack of visual stimuli. + The smooth, critically important, but absolutely noiseless process of an operator hooping up orders. Not a sound per se, but a lack of sound in contrast to the noise of the passing engines and cars. + The differing sound of the wheels on a switch or crossover at the head vs. at the end of a train as it passed. + The occasional radio conversation between the operator and the crew, especially if one was known to the other. + And the operator, again using the foot treadle, calling the next tower to report the train "by", as in "by Jacks", "by Lewis", etc. Also, the operator shooting the breeze with the next operator up the line, gossiping about the dispatcher or other operators. This banter created a sense of connectedness, cooperative work, order, importance, and accomplishment -- but at the same time it went on in a low-key way, that is, never rushed or excited. It was an atmosphere and a sequence of sounds that you never found inside the general offices of a railroad. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Bigler wrote: >The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but unmistakeable. Hopefully when it's run its course I'll summarize this one two. Some of the stories were especially good. To lead off: > >1. The crash of two freight cars coupling together at night a bit too hard, when all was silent beforehand. > >2. A steam freight pulling out of a siding accelerating with a long train, again at night, with no wheelsips at all. > >3. A steam freight pulling out of a siding struggling to start a long train with a lot of backing to take slack, trying again, finally getting moving, but lots of wheel slips all the way up to speed. > >4. A communicating whistle in a steam cab, the hiss of the reverse lever being moved forward, hiss of air being released, bell starting, two whistle blasts, safety valves letting loose, and deafening exhausts starting up and slowly building up to speed and one continuous roar. > >5. An Alemite grease gun in a yard. > >6. A brakeman pulling the air drain on air tanks on cars as he walks a cut of cars just set out. > >You get the idea - let's hear 'em! > >Bill Bigler - 4915 >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> >Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). >http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 >http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM >---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > >To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = >PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:01:25 -0400 How about a flat wheel thumping by. and a non-sound: A GG1 at speed sneaking up on you during a snow storm. (at Islen NJ) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:02:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Sounds In a message dated 9/18/03 8:26:25 PM, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but unmistakeable. >> ***************** It's not PRR but if you want to bring your recorder to north central Texas, you can pick up some great sounds. It is funny how one man's nostalgia can be another's pain in the rear. The Tarantula is a steam train that runs between the Stockyards in Fort Worth and Grapevine, Texas, maybe 20 miles OW. It hauls 6 or 7 passenger and operates mostly on the weekends and during the summer. On a warm, damp Sunday morning, if the wind is right, I can hear the engineer blow many of the dozens of crossings, long-long-short-long, from Grapevine, west, to North Richland Hills or Keller. It is a sweet sound from where I sit. However, this is no longer wilderness. The track runs through some developing areas where there are some large, pricey houses, The track in Grapevine now runs between a major road and a new Walmart that scheduled to open within weeks. To get from or to the road into or outof Walmart's lot there are three drives, each with a major new set of crossing arms and flashing lights, there more crossings for the engineer to blow. There is an occasional letter to the editor in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram about the noise. But, for the short term, at least, this would be a good place to record the train whistle and the Stockyards would be a good place to record the sounds of a steam engine at work. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:21:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Sounds From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" This is only partly PRR - some coaches are PRR vintage. At Bertram, on the Hill Country Flyer route from Austin to Burnet, there are 5 grade crossings spaced at close intervals. As the train approaches Bertram from Austin it is coming up a slight grade. The chuffing and whistling is a marvel to behold (and record, which I have done). Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: LAMAassoc@aol.com >To: wbigler@stny.rr.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Sounds >Date: Thu, 18 Sep, 2003, 16:02 > > > In a message dated 9/18/03 8:26:25 PM, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > > << The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so > much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad > sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but unmistakeable. >> > ***************** > It's not PRR but if you want to bring your recorder to north central Texas, > you can pick up some great sounds. > > It is funny how one man's nostalgia can be another's pain in the rear. > > The Tarantula is a steam train that runs between the Stockyards in Fort Worth > and Grapevine, Texas, maybe 20 miles OW. It hauls 6 or 7 passenger and > operates mostly on the weekends and during the summer. > > On a warm, damp Sunday morning, if the wind is right, I can hear the engineer > blow many of the dozens of crossings, long-long-short-long, from Grapevine, > west, to North Richland Hills or Keller. It is a sweet sound from where I sit. > > However, this is no longer wilderness. The track runs through some developing > areas where there are some large, pricey houses, The track in Grapevine now > runs between a major road and a new Walmart that scheduled to open within > weeks. To get from or to the road into or outof Walmart's lot there are three > drives, each with a major new set of crossing arms and flashing lights, there more > crossings for the engineer to blow. > > There is an occasional letter to the editor in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram > about the noise. > > But, for the short term, at least, this would be a good place to record the > train whistle and the Stockyards would be a good place to record the sounds of > a steam engine at work. > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser stock car Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:51:08 -0400 Andrew Miller wrote: They make both the K-9 (40ft ex X31) and the K-11 (50ft ex X32) in HO. It's the OTHER way around - Class K9 were the 50 ft cars, K11 40 ft cars. Ben Hom There are NO dashes in PRR car classes... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:07:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011B_01C37E0F.C566BE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the info on poultry movement on Delmarva. And a long belated = thanks for the "Skookill" Branch info. I tried to send a Thanks on the = "Skookill" a while back but it kept coming back. No excuse anyway thanks = again for both. BillP ------=_NextPart_000_011B_01C37E0F.C566BE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for the info on poultry movement on Delmarva. And a long = belated=20 thanks for the "Skookill" Branch info. I tried to send a Thanks on the=20 "Skookill" a while back but it kept coming back. No excuse anyway thanks = again=20 for both. BillP

------=_NextPart_000_011B_01C37E0F.C566BE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:23:27 -0400 List, I distinctly recall one of the RSD5's being the usual power on the local freight from Bayview to Texas, MD, on the Northern Central when I worked for the PRR in Baltimore in 1965 and 1966. I covered the NC as far North as the Standard Brands vinegar plant, so saw the train a number of times, including one very scary one when a wheel broke on a tank car as it went past Woodberry station. The Agent and I were under the desks. Talk about railroad sounds!! Sounded like a machine cannon or bombs going off! Fortunately, that was the only axle that derailed!!!!! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: ; Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions > Jeff and the List: > > >From what I have gathered, these units did not have inductive train phone > antennea. I have never seen a photo of them equipped as such. > > I think that they were not equipped for MU but I am not 100% sure of that. > > While others have contributed that these units spent a part of thier lives > in the Baltimore area, photos have indicated that they did wander the > system. I think it is in Don Ball's book "Pennsylvania Railroad -- 1940's > and 1950's" or one of Bob Yanosey's first volumes of Pennsy Diesel Years, > but there is a photo of 8448 flat switching cars in Hawthone yard in > Indianapolis (circa 1950's). Hence, this small fleet was not exclusively > assigned just to one area all of thier lives but were moved around. However, > I think it was not widespread and the Indy assignment may have been short > term. > > I hope that this helps. > > Ted Andrews > > > >From: Jeff Warner > >Reply-To: jeff@pennsyrr.com > >To: PRR Talk List > >Subject: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions > >Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:26:47 -0400 > > > >Hello. > > > >PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > > >1) would they have had trainphone antennas installed? If so, would they > >have been installed the same as the RS3's? > > > >2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > > > >Thanks in advance for any info, > > > >Jeff Warner > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! > https://broadband.msn.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:33:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C37E1B.C6883D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: .." and closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 a.m., RGL (the practice on initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's initials while others used the operator's.) The PRR used the Superintendent's initials. Ed Phillips "Railroad Operation and Railway Signaling," says Superintendent's initials also. I think that may have been more universal. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C37E1B.C6883D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Re: .." and closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 = a.m., RGL=20 (the practice on initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's = initials=20 while others used the operator's.)

The PRR used the = Superintendent's=20 initials. Ed Phillips "Railroad Operation and Railway Signaling," says=20 Superintendent's initials also. I think that may have been more=20 universal.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C37E1B.C6883D60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:33:44 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds Re: .." and closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 a.m., RGL (the practice on initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's initials while others used the operator's.) The PRR used the Superintendent's initials. Ed Phillips "Railroad Operation and Railway Signaling," says Superintendent's initials also. I think that may have been more universal. Al [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:58:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds While writer Thomas Wolfe wrote that only Penn Station was large enough to hold the sound of time, I'd have to respectfully disagree and say that an open interlocking tower is also a good candidate. I've had the opportunity to visit Cork, Harris, State, Rockville, Mifflin, Lewis, Spruce, Alto, SO, and several on B&O around the Pittsburgh area. Just visiting a tower for a period longer than, say, 15 or 20 minutes, gave you a tangible sense of the passage of time, which might be something close to the "sound of time." The sounds, the rituals, and the cycles were universal, and went something like this: + The operator getting the call (on the company phone) from the next tower with a lineup. This involved a pre-arrranged number of rings for each tower or location. The operator pressing a foot-activated treadle to talk and releasing the treadle to listen. Hearing the alternating click and hum as the conversation went back and forth. + The operator taking dictation and recording "19" orders from a dispatcher, then reading it back "that's seven-naught-two..." and closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 a.m., RGL (the practice on initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's initials while others used the operator's.) + The annunciator bell, usually loud but sometimes with a dull thud from paper being stuffed into it to keep it from resonating too long. When the bell rang, the tension in the air kicked up a notch, because of the implied imminent arrival of a train. + The soft whirring of the timer on the interlocking plant, after the operator set up a route, to keep switches from being thrown under a train. + The approach and passage of the train. At night, the sound was not actually louder but usually seemed so perhaps because of the more humid night air (in summer, that is), plus the lack of visual stimuli. + The smooth, critically important, but absolutely noiseless process of an operator hooping up orders. Not a sound per se, but a lack of sound in contrast to the noise of the passing engines and cars. + The differing sound of the wheels on a switch or crossover at the head vs. at the end of a train as it passed. + The occasional radio conversation between the operator and the crew, especially if one was known to the other. + And the operator, again using the foot treadle, calling the next tower to report the train "by", as in "by Jacks", "by Lewis", etc. Also, the operator shooting the breeze with the next operator up the line, gossiping about the dispatcher or other operators. This banter created a sense of connectedness, cooperative work, order, importance, and accomplishment -- but at the same time it went on in a low-key way, that is, never rushed or excited. It was an atmosphere and a sequence of sounds that you never found inside the general offices of a railroad. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Bigler wrote: >The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but unmistakeable. Hopefully when it's run its course I'll summarize this one two. Some of the stories were especially good. To lead off: > >1. The crash of two freight cars coupling together at night a bit too hard, when all was silent beforehand. > >2. A steam freight pulling out of a siding accelerating with a long train, again at night, with no wheelsips at all. > >3. A steam freight pulling out of a siding struggling to start a long train with a lot of backing to take slack, trying again, finally getting moving, but lots of wheel slips all the way up to speed. > >4. A communicating whistle in a steam cab, the hiss of the reverse lever being moved forward, hiss of air being released, bell starting, two whistle blasts, safety valves letting loose, and deafening exhausts starting up and slowly building up to speed and one continuous roar. > >5. An Alemite grease gun in a yard. > >6. A brakeman pulling the air drain on air tanks on cars as he walks a cut of cars just set out. > >You get the idea - let's hear 'em! > >Bill Bigler - 4915 >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > >To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = >PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:24:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/18/03 'Slack Crash' is one of my favorites! It is timeless. I also love the fact that O Scale is large eough to get a great slack sound when starting out, esp with a train of 10 or so full 80' Pullmans and Coaches. Fred Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad Sounds From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:35:14 -0400 How about the crashing sounds of slack running in and out, for whatever reason. Bob Zoeller ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] Does this make sense? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:00:52 -0400 In this instance, beg to disagree. Had booked Boston to Charlotte, NC in June for the 18th and 19th. When cancelled today, got a call FROM AMTRAK to determine my course of action: re-book or refund. I'm mildly insane, so I re-booked for tomorrow. When I called last night (17th) agent was helpful and courteous. I knew the trip was going to be cancelled from DC to Charlotte when I went to the CSX web site and saw them suspending service yesterday and staging ballast trains through the region. One last thing, we took the Zephyr, the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder loop a year ago. My wife got hooked on train travel, despite the delays occasioned by UP maintenance in the Rockies and the Sierras that caused a 6.5 hour delay getting into Sacramento. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:32 AM To: PRR-Talk; zootowerprr@webtv.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Does this make sense? I'm not suggesting that they run through the storm and I understand the ramifications of the rain and flooding. I was commenting on canceling service two days before it would get there at the earliest. Especially in light of their need for funds. They could have advised people to check with Amtrak on those days and planned to run if possible. They are in a service business. Unfortunately they have developed a typical government run mentality of eating at the taxpayer trough and providing minimal service IMHO. If they truely wanted business they would do everyting to accomadate the public. This reeks of a who cares attitude. > > In 1972, huge portions of the Penn Central's (along with every > major railroad in the northeast) mainlines were wiped clean off the map. > I'm sure most of us remember seeing photos of the Shocks Mill Bridge and > what was left of the Port Road. The line between Baltimore and York was > gone forever. > So I guess from the railroad's point of view, YES.. it does make > sense. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:45:40 -0400 Jeff, -8446 & 8447 were built 10/52, 8448-8451 were built 3/53, -all 6 had hump control, -8447, 8448, 8450 had Bell mobile phones -8449-8451 had cab signals -none had trainphone apparatus Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Warner To: PRR Talk List Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:26 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions > Hello. > > PRR owned 6 of these, numbered 8446-8451. My questions are -- > > 1) would they have had trainphone antennas installed? If so, would > they have been installed the same as the RS3's? > > 2) where would these have been used out of in the mid 1950's? > > Thanks in advance for any info, > > Jeff Warner > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:16:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions --part1_43.223537d9.2c9bc109_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Jim Shuman book, Trackside - Under the Pennsy Wires, published by Morning Sun books, on page 67, RSD5 #8451 is shown with the Lebanon local near Middletown. The date of the photo shows the loco without MU connectors. BTW, does anyone know where the Lebanon branch left the electrified line? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_43.223537d9.2c9bc109_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the Jim Shuman book, Trackside - Under the P= ennsy Wires, published by Morning Sun books, on page 67, RSD5 #8451 is shown= with the Lebanon local near Middletown. The date of the photo shows t= he loco without MU connectors.

BTW, does anyone know where the Lebanon branch left the electrified l= ine?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_43.223537d9.2c9bc109_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:20:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions --part1_163.25cdb0ff.2c9bc1d0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One other point. The RSD5 in the Shuman photo does have the induction phone antenna. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_163.25cdb0ff.2c9bc1d0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One other point. The RSD5 in the Shuman p= hoto does have the induction phone antenna.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_163.25cdb0ff.2c9bc1d0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:27:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Railroad Sounds Train announcers in big stations like Penn Station or Grand Central. They had their own accents and pronounciations: Aaaaash - ta- bu-lah, ... The Penn Station Announcer was a real gem. I have him on an old set of PRR Semaphore vinyl records. He sat up in a glass booth behind a window above the waiting room and talked in a droning monotone. It was unmistakable where you were. Only the locals knew what he was saying. The conductor yelling " 'board!" at a rural station as the train started to move and he swung aboard. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:25:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco RSD-5 (AS16a) questions On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > In the Jim Shuman book, Trackside - Under the Pennsy Wires, published by > Morning Sun books, on page 67, RSD5 #8451 is shown with the Lebanon local near > Middletown. The date of the photo shows the loco without MU connectors. > > BTW, does anyone know where the Lebanon branch left the electrified line? Conewago Junction comes to mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:26:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] RSD5 Question - Correction --part1_1a5.194db8ff.2c9bc344_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To use that tried and true military expression, "as you were". The RSD5 #8451 on page 67 did NOT have the trainphone, I confused it with the RS3 on page 62. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1a5.194db8ff.2c9bc344_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To use that tried and true military expression,= "as you were". The RSD5 #8451 on page 67 did NOT have the trainphone,= I confused it with the RS3 on page 62.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1a5.194db8ff.2c9bc344_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:27:11 -0400 Train announcers in big stations like Penn Station or Grand Central. They had their own accents and pronounciations: Aaaaash - ta- bu-lah, ... The Penn Station Announcer was a real gem. I have him on an old set of PRR Semaphore vinyl records. He sat up in a glass booth behind a window above the waiting room and talked in a droning monotone. It was unmistakable where you were. Only the locals knew what he was saying. The conductor yelling " 'board!" at a rural station as the train started to move and he swung aboard. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:45:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Railroad Sounds Trains along the southern tier of NY on the old Erie nearing Hammond St. Crossing at night. No too alike. Some blow the long, long, short,long. Some blow it all at night so fast you can hardly distinguish, some just blow once, some just toot and some are totally silent rumbling throuth. Even by day there's no real consistency - some silent really a bit of everything. Very little by the book All very mysterious. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:45:34 -0400 Trains along the southern tier of NY on the old Erie nearing Hammond St. Crossing at night. No too alike. Some blow the long, long, short,long. Some blow it all at night so fast you can hardly distinguish, some just blow once, some just toot and some are totally silent rumbling throuth. Even by day there's no real consistency - some silent really a bit of everything. Very little by the book All very mysterious. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:17:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds And the only super with just two initials, H B (1940's & 1950's) Can anyone guess H_ _ _ _ B_ _ _ _ _ _ Boomer ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan To: 'Dan Cupper' ; PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: 'PRR-Talk' Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds Re: .." and closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 a.m., RGL (the practice on initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's initials while others used the operator's.) The PRR used the Superintendent's initials. Ed Phillips "Railroad Operation and Railway Signaling," says Superintendent's initials also. I think that may have been more universal. Al [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:25:10 +0000 PRR-Gize: First of all, I would like to thank all of those would contributed to the reefer questions that I asked last week. These cars and the trains that pulled then were more numerous than what I assumed....I REALLY need to head over to the hobby store (and Jerry's Merchandise Service) to stock up!! At any rate, my question involves the LCL trains. According to official PRR Freight Schedules, these "Less than Car Load" trains hauled LCL merchandise and forwarder cars/traffic. What did this exactly mean in terms of consist? Did this mean that the cars on these trains were express reefers, boxcars, and so on? Would these trains have allot of Merchantdise Service cars on it? Would there be other types of cars that would help identify this train as an LCL? Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide me. Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Servers Back Online From: Jerry Britton At about 3:10 a.m. this morning hurricane Isabel knocked out power to the site housing the servers for the PRR-talk, Reading-talk, Conrail-talk, and numerous other lists, plus the web sites of Keystone Crossings and others. We've been powered back up since about 12:35 p.m. Sorry for the inconvenience. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:15:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question From: Jerry Britton On Friday, September 19, 2003, at 10:25 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > At any rate, my question involves the LCL trains. According to > official PRR Freight Schedules, these "Less than Car Load" trains > hauled LCL merchandise and forwarder cars/traffic. What did this > exactly mean in terms of consist? Did this mean that the cars on these > trains were express reefers, boxcars, and so on? Would these trains > have allot of Merchantdise Service cars on it? Would there be other > types of cars that would help identify this train as an LCL? I am not an expert on this, and certainly do not know if firsthand, but this is what I have gathered from marketing materials, available models, and conjecture based on my own experience in Business Logistics classes in college (yeah, I ventured into the classroom every now an then!): Regular online shippers would request a car for a shipment. They would pay per diem rates to get their product from point A to point B. If there shipment was small -- too large for the postal service or REA, but too small to fill a car -- LCL (Less than Car Load) was the answer. Basically they would "share" the cost of the care with other shippers in the same predicament. But to work with LCL service, the shipper and receiver would have to drop off/pick up the product at the railroad's freight house. And, yes, between 1947 and 1957, I am guessing that "Merchandise Service" cars would have been the preferred car for this use as that is what the scheme was for in the first place. Take it a step further, and Pennsy had "Keystone Merchandise Service", which offered pickup and delivery. I had thought this was a predecessor to "Merchandise Service", but I have recently purchased advertising which proves it was at least concurrent in 1955-56. For 1954 modelers, you can combine the initial TOFC service in the LCL trains (LCL-1 and LCL-2) as the PRR didn't have totally dedicated TOFC trains until 1955 when the TT symbol came into use. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:35:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Diner on Manhattan Limited From: Jerry Britton A few days ago I was asking what class of diner might have been assigned to the Manhattan Limited in 1954. I was referred to the Spring 2003 issue of the Keystone which contained Chuck Blardone's excellent article on Class D78. (Why didn't I think of that?) I had only briefly reviewed the article at the time, thinking it was mostly older data. Much to my delight, near the end is a section on modernization and some assignments from 1954 and 1958. According to this data, in 1954 the Manhattan Limited dining car service was protected by D78dR #4482 and D78fR #4498. The article provided diner assignments for a few of my future needs as well. Thanks for reminding me of this great source of info! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:59:01 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question "Merchandise Service" cars would certainly be used. They were more than just fancy paint. The special paint identified cars specifically equipped inside for LCL cargo. They had some type of load separators installed to enable the safe shipment of small odd size packages. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jerry Britton wrote: > On Friday, September 19, 2003, at 10:25 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > > > At any rate, my question involves the LCL trains. According to > > official PRR Freight Schedules, these "Less than Car Load" trains > > hauled LCL merchandise and forwarder cars/traffic. What did this > > exactly mean in terms of consist? Did this mean that the cars on these > > trains were express reefers, boxcars, and so on? Would these trains > > have allot of Merchantdise Service cars on it? Would there be other > > types of cars that would help identify this train as an LCL? > > I am not an expert on this, and certainly do not know if firsthand, but > this is what I have gathered from marketing materials, available > models, and conjecture based on my own experience in Business Logistics > classes in college (yeah, I ventured into the classroom every now an > then!): > > Regular online shippers would request a car for a shipment. They would > pay per diem rates to get their product from point A to point B. If > there shipment was small -- too large for the postal service or REA, > but too small to fill a car -- LCL (Less than Car Load) was the answer. > Basically they would "share" the cost of the care with other shippers > in the same predicament. > > But to work with LCL service, the shipper and receiver would have to > drop off/pick up the product at the railroad's freight house. And, yes, > between 1947 and 1957, I am guessing that "Merchandise Service" cars > would have been the preferred car for this use as that is what the > scheme was for in the first place. > > Take it a step further, and Pennsy had "Keystone Merchandise Service", > which offered pickup and delivery. I had thought this was a predecessor > to "Merchandise Service", but I have recently purchased advertising > which proves it was at least concurrent in 1955-56. > > For 1954 modelers, you can combine the initial TOFC service in the LCL > trains (LCL-1 and LCL-2) as the PRR didn't have totally dedicated TOFC > trains until 1955 when the TT symbol came into use. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:29:31 +0000 Thanks for the information. I have another question. Would express cars from other railroads be found on LCL trains? Would cars like NYC Pacemaker, B&O Sentinal cars, etc. been found as well as REA cars and PRR Merchandise Service cars? Thanks! Ted _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:37:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question From: Jerry Britton On Friday, September 19, 2003, at 02:29 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > Thanks for the information. I have another question. Would express > cars from other railroads be found on LCL trains? Would cars like NYC > Pacemaker, B&O Sentinal cars, etc. been found as well as REA cars and > PRR Merchandise Service cars? List, correct me if I am wrong, but "express" and "lcl" were mutually exclusive services. The REA ran "express" service and its cars were forwarded on passenger trains. "LCL" service ran on freight trains and was managed by the freight department. If correct, you wouldn't see REA cars on LCL trains. I, too, would be interested to know if other roads' LCL cars would interchange or would each stay on their home systems? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:48:06 +0000 Jerry wrote: >I, too, would be interested to know if other roads' LCL cars would >interchange or would each stay on their home systems? Good question: I read somewhere that the NYC Pacemaker cars essentially stayed on home rails. It would be great to get confirmation on this as well. In addtion, Truc Train cars could have still be found on LCL trains as late as 1960. Mark Bej's site lists LCL-1 that would pick up TT cars for forwarding. This seemed to be more of a clearinghouse approach in the middle of the PRR system (Enola, Pittsburgh, etc.). Dedicated TT trains basically ran from one one of the system to the other and while these trains did work at midpoints, they probably were not able to pick up all intermodal cars. The LCL trains may have provided this option. Ted >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:50:58 -0400 Would container flats have also been used in LCL service, such as the FM, etc. I've seen that they did have deigns to carry all sorts of containers including mini-reefers. I'm just asking. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Wrote: "Merchandise Service" cars would certainly be used. They were more than just fancy paint. The special paint identified cars specifically equipped inside for LCL cargo. They had some type of load separators installed to enable the safe shipment of small odd size packages. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:25:06 -0400 I, too, would be interested to know if other roads' LCL cars would=20 interchange or would each stay on their home systems? ----------------------------------------------------------- Just had this thread on another list, but no (with the ususal caveat of never say never)=2E The cars, like Pennsy's usually had special loading devices and railroads wanted to keep them on line=2E As I have pointed out= more than once, I believe the NYC's Pacemaker cars didn't even have all th= e reporting marks and data required by law for interchange service=2E Begs the question how an LCL shipment went interrailroad=2E I suspect that= some of that traffic was transferred cross platform at various major centers=2E I never got an answer to my old question of whether the Pennsy'= s Merchandise cars were even allowed off premises crosstown in Chicago to freight forwarders houses for loading and inclusion in a switch run back t= o make the departure time for LCL-2=2E I also wonder if, say, a Western Railroad had a full LCL load to go to an online Pennsy location they didn't make sure a conventional boxcar wasn't used and not, for example, an SP Overnight=2E This last just pure conjectu= re on my part=2E Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] LCL Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:53:19 +0000 It just struck me that as the cars got bigger they may have forced some shippers to go to trucks or LCL dependent on the volume of their typical shipments. What is a carload in an X-29 may not have been in an X-31 and so on. So if a shipper was sending a carload on a regular basis he eiher has to carry more inventory to fill up a bigger car or find alternate cost effective shipping companies. Bigger cars which would be better for the railroad may have helped cause the demise of business with the shippers. Just a thought I am pondering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:54:13 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] [ Rail-related programs at Cooper Union, New York City] (Paticularly Item 3....) ================================================ From: "Gary R. Kazin" Subject: Rail-related programs at Cooper Union, New York City My Alma Mater, Cooper Union, has an extensive continuing education program open to the public. Several offerings have railroad content and could be interesting to those near New York City: September 30 - December 2 - Underground Creativity, 10 Tuesdays, 6:30-9:30pm, Sharpen your sense of observation and sense of humor by riding the subway. (more) Course F420, $265. October 30, 6:30 - 8pm - The "EL" Trains and the Brooklyn Bridge: 1869 - 1883, As New York City's pobulation passes one million, "EL" Trains and the Brooklyn Bridge extend the rowhouse city beyond old boundaries, $25. December 2, 6:30pm - The Pennsylvania Railroad, Penn Station and the Development of New York City, illustrated lecture, free. Wollman Auditorium, Astor Place at Third Avenue. Contact: 212-353-4195 or http://www.cooper.edu/ce for more information or to register. _ best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:07:41 -0400 >From what I remember on the Seaboard, the cars would be loaded on which ever line the shipper was on or which ever cars he was using, ie, Sears would ship appliances and other items to Roanoke Rapids, and the cars would be unloaded for quite a few businesses, and individuals to come and pick up and if the car had another town to be delivered the doors were resealed and ship to that town. I remember SP, ATSF, PRR, NYC cars coming into town and being unloaded at the freight house. I think if the industry was online, then the SAL would use SAL cars and I feel the other roads would do the same. Just my remembrance and thoughts Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question I, too, would be interested to know if other roads' LCL cars would interchange or would each stay on their home systems? ----------------------------------------------------------- Just had this thread on another list, but no (with the ususal caveat of never say never). The cars, like Pennsy's usually had special loading devices and railroads wanted to keep them on line. As I have pointed out more than once, I believe the NYC's Pacemaker cars didn't even have all the reporting marks and data required by law for interchange service. Begs the question how an LCL shipment went interrailroad. I suspect that some of that traffic was transferred cross platform at various major centers. I never got an answer to my old question of whether the Pennsy's Merchandise cars were even allowed off premises crosstown in Chicago to freight forwarders houses for loading and inclusion in a switch run back to make the departure time for LCL-2. I also wonder if, say, a Western Railroad had a full LCL load to go to an online Pennsy location they didn't make sure a conventional boxcar wasn't used and not, for example, an SP Overnight. This last just pure conjecture on my part. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:01:10 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37EF9.891929B0 Content-Type: text/plain John; I think that the intention of the PRR was to grab small shippers for whom security and the inability to fill an entire car was an issue, and keep them shipping via the RR. I believe that each container like a DD-1a (one of the ones used on the FM or F31 flats, for instance) was sort of rented for a trip, and the shipper had the option of putting their own locks or whatever on the container, to ensure folks weren't stealing their cargo. I think you could call that "less than carload" in some respect. Those "flat with container" arrangements did not last all that long (ending early-mid-50's?), unlike the "container in a gon" arrangements, which did last to the end of the PRR. Although it did not encompass as many cars as the sealed containers did, the open top coke containers lasted into PC and perhaps beyond. The LCL in a boxcar, lasted into the 60's, although the "Merchandise Service" promos seemed to have gone away some time before then. At least the LCL equipment was still installed in a number of different car series that late. Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Frantz [mailto:johnf2384@suscom.net] Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:51 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: Andrew S. Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Would container flats have also been used in LCL service, such as the FM, etc. I've seen that they did have deigns to carry all sorts of containers including mini-reefers. I'm just asking. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Wrote: "Merchandise Service" cars would certainly be used. They were more than just fancy paint. The special paint identified cars specifically equipped inside for LCL cargo. They had some type of load separators installed to enable the safe shipment of small odd size packages. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37EF9.891929B0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question

John;
I think that the intention of the PRR was to grab = small shippers for whom security and the inability to fill an entire = car was an issue, and keep them shipping via the RR. I believe = that each container like a DD-1a (one of the ones used on the FM or F31 = flats, for instance) was sort of rented for a trip, and the shipper had = the option of putting their own locks or whatever on the container, to = ensure folks weren't stealing their cargo. I think you could call = that "less than carload" in some respect. Those = "flat with container" arrangements did not last all that long = (ending early-mid-50's?), unlike the "container in a gon" = arrangements, which did last to the end of the PRR. Although it = did not encompass as many cars as the sealed containers did, the open = top coke containers lasted into PC and perhaps beyond.

The LCL in a boxcar, lasted into the 60's, although = the "Merchandise Service" promos seemed to have gone away = some time before then. At least the LCL equipment was still = installed in a number of different car series that late.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: John Frantz [mailto:johnf2384@suscom.net] =
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:51 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Cc: Andrew S. Miller
Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question

Would container flats have also been used in LCL = service,
such as the FM, etc. I've seen that they did have = deigns
to carry all sorts of containers including = mini-reefers.
I'm just asking.

John

-----------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Wrote:

"Merchandise Service" cars would certainly = be used. They
were more than
just fancy paint. The special paint identified = cars
specifically equipped
inside for LCL cargo. They had some type of = load
separators installed to
enable the safe shipment of small odd size = packages.

Regards,

Andrew S. Miller

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C37EF9.891929B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:17:31 +0000 Elden and the list: So would LCL trains in the 1950's and 1960's have the PRR gondolas with the PRR containers in them in addition to Merchandise Service (X-29, X-40) cars and an occasional cut of intermodal cars? Ted >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >To: 'John Frantz' , PRR-Talk@dsop.com >CC: "Andrew S. Miller" >Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question >Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:01:10 -0700 > >John; >I think that the intention of the PRR was to grab small shippers for whom >security and the inability to fill an entire car was an issue, and keep >them >shipping via the RR. I believe that each container like a DD-1a (one of >the >ones used on the FM or F31 flats, for instance) was sort of rented for a >trip, and the shipper had the option of putting their own locks or whatever >on the container, to ensure folks weren't stealing their cargo. I think >you >could call that "less than carload" in some respect. Those "flat with >container" arrangements did not last all that long (ending >early-mid-50's?), >unlike the "container in a gon" arrangements, which did last to the end of >the PRR. Although it did not encompass as many cars as the sealed >containers did, the open top coke containers lasted into PC and perhaps >beyond. >The LCL in a boxcar, lasted into the 60's, although the "Merchandise >Service" promos seemed to have gone away some time before then. At least >the LCL equipment was still installed in a number of different car series >that late. > >Elden > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Frantz [mailto:johnf2384@suscom.net] >Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:51 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Cc: Andrew S. Miller >Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question > >Would container flats have also been used in LCL service, >such as the FM, etc. I've seen that they did have deigns >to carry all sorts of containers including mini-reefers. >I'm just asking. > >John > > > >----------------------------------------------------------- >Andrew Wrote: > >"Merchandise Service" cars would certainly be used. They >were more than >just fancy paint. The special paint identified cars >specifically equipped >inside for LCL cargo. They had some type of load >separators installed to >enable the safe shipment of small odd size packages. > >Regards, > >Andrew S. Miller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:33:38 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37EFE.11B407F0 Content-Type: text/plain Ted; I can't answer the question about "LCL Trains" as I am not sure what that is, but boxcars designated for LCL, included freight that would have ended up at freight houses in boxcars designated for that service, and were expedited so that the freight got to a freight house in a timely manner and didn't end up sitting in a yard somewhere (THAT drove the customers crazy!). You see reference to blocks in trains being referred to that way. Those blocks were oftentimes put at the head of the train for cutting out early in classification at yards and fast forwarding on the next train to their destination. I am not sure how the LCL gons were operated, but I imagine in a similar manner, prior to the end of that service in the early-mid-50-'s. The other container gons (G22b, G36e) were bulk shipment gons and were not routed by expedited means, I don't believe. So, you would not have seen them in those designated blocks. By intermodal, if you mean trailers on flatcars, I think they were run on special trains between designated sites that had on/off-loading facilities for trailers. There was one at Pitcairn devoted to that service, that did NOT serve LCL or other uses. The LCL service at 28th Street DID do LCL, but not trailers. I think the trailer on flatcar thing started in about '54? Around the time LCL gons like I described had gone for good. LCL gons die out, Trailers enter? Throughout this, the Merchandise Service cars (even while the service was dying) continued to run. While the early photos (50's) show the MS cars up front in trains, in blocks, the 60's photos show MS cars in very badly deteriorated condition, sprinkled around in trains, perhaps only being used for shippers that want the load partitioning capability, and less the issue of services offered. I am sure folks with greater knowledge can provide far more insight into this. You ought to get a copy of the container service article that Rich Burg wrote up for the Keystone, if you continue to be interested. Have a good weekend, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 3:18 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; johnf2384@suscom.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: asmiller@mitre.org Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Elden and the list: So would LCL trains in the 1950's and 1960's have the PRR gondolas with the PRR containers in them in addition to Merchandise Service (X-29, X-40) cars and an occasional cut of intermodal cars? Ted >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >To: 'John Frantz' , PRR-Talk@dsop.com >CC: "Andrew S. Miller" >Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question >Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:01:10 -0700 > >John; >I think that the intention of the PRR was to grab small shippers for whom >security and the inability to fill an entire car was an issue, and keep >them >shipping via the RR. I believe that each container like a DD-1a (one of >the >ones used on the FM or F31 flats, for instance) was sort of rented for a >trip, and the shipper had the option of putting their own locks or whatever >on the container, to ensure folks weren't stealing their cargo. I think >you >could call that "less than carload" in some respect. Those "flat with >container" arrangements did not last all that long (ending >early-mid-50's?), >unlike the "container in a gon" arrangements, which did last to the end of >the PRR. Although it did not encompass as many cars as the sealed >containers did, the open top coke containers lasted into PC and perhaps >beyond. >The LCL in a boxcar, lasted into the 60's, although the "Merchandise >Service" promos seemed to have gone away some time before then. At least >the LCL equipment was still installed in a number of different car series >that late. > >Elden > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Frantz [mailto:johnf2384@suscom.net] >Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:51 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Cc: Andrew S. Miller >Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question > >Would container flats have also been used in LCL service, >such as the FM, etc. I've seen that they did have deigns >to carry all sorts of containers including mini-reefers. >I'm just asking. > >John > > > >----------------------------------------------------------- >Andrew Wrote: > >"Merchandise Service" cars would certainly be used. They >were more than >just fancy paint. The special paint identified cars >specifically equipped >inside for LCL cargo. They had some type of load >separators installed to >enable the safe shipment of small odd size packages. > >Regards, > >Andrew S. Miller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37EFE.11B407F0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question

Ted;
I can't answer the question about "LCL = Trains" as I am not sure what that is, but boxcars designated for = LCL, included freight that would have ended up at freight houses in = boxcars designated for that service, and were expedited so that the = freight got to a freight house in a timely manner and didn't end up = sitting in a yard somewhere (THAT drove the customers crazy!). = You see reference to blocks in trains being referred to that way. = Those blocks were oftentimes put at the head of the train for cutting = out early in classification at yards and fast forwarding on the next = train to their destination.

I am not sure how the LCL gons were operated, but I = imagine in a similar manner, prior to the end of that service in the = early-mid-50-'s. The other container gons (G22b, G36e) were bulk = shipment gons and were not routed by expedited means, I don't = believe. So, you would not have seen them in those designated = blocks.

By intermodal, if you mean trailers on flatcars, I = think they were run on special trains between designated sites that had = on/off-loading facilities for trailers. There was one at Pitcairn = devoted to that service, that did NOT serve LCL or other uses. = The LCL service at 28th Street DID do LCL, but not trailers. I = think the trailer on flatcar thing started in about '54? Around = the time LCL gons like I described had gone for good. LCL gons = die out, Trailers enter?

Throughout this, the Merchandise Service cars (even = while the service was dying) continued to run. While the early = photos (50's) show the MS cars up front in trains, in blocks, the 60's = photos show MS cars in very badly deteriorated condition, sprinkled = around in trains, perhaps only being used for shippers that want the = load partitioning capability, and less the issue of services = offered.

I am sure folks with greater knowledge can provide = far more insight into this. You ought to get a copy of the = container service article that Rich Burg wrote up for the Keystone, if = you continue to be interested.

Have a good weekend,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] =
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 3:18 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; johnf2384@suscom.net; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Cc: asmiller@mitre.org
Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question

Elden and the list:

So would LCL trains in the 1950's and 1960's have the = PRR gondolas with the
PRR containers in them in addition to Merchandise = Service (X-29, X-40) cars
and an occasional cut of intermodal cars?

Ted

>From: ELDEN GATWOOD = <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>
>To: 'John Frantz' <johnf2384@suscom.net>, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
>CC: "Andrew S. Miller" = <asmiller@mitre.org>
>Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question
>Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:01:10 -0700
>
>John;
>I think that the intention of the PRR was to = grab small shippers for whom
>security and the inability to fill an entire car = was an issue, and keep
>them
>shipping via the RR. I believe that each = container like a DD-1a (one of
>the
>ones used on the FM or F31 flats, for instance) = was sort of rented for a
>trip, and the shipper had the option of putting = their own locks or whatever
>on the container, to ensure folks weren't = stealing their cargo. I think
>you
>could call that "less than carload" in = some respect. Those "flat with
>container" arrangements did not last all = that long (ending
>early-mid-50's?),
>unlike the "container in a gon" = arrangements, which did last to the end of
>the PRR. Although it did not encompass as = many cars as the sealed
>containers did, the open top coke containers = lasted into PC and perhaps
>beyond.
>The LCL in a boxcar, lasted into the 60's, = although the "Merchandise
>Service" promos seemed to have gone away = some time before then. At least
>the LCL equipment was still installed in a = number of different car series
>that late.
>
>Elden
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Frantz [mailto:johnf2384@suscom.net]
>Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:51 PM
>To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
>Cc: Andrew S. Miller
>Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question
>
>Would container flats have also been used in LCL = service,
>such as the FM, etc. I've seen that they did = have deigns
>to carry all sorts of containers including = mini-reefers.
>I'm just asking.
>
>John
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------=
>Andrew Wrote:
>
>"Merchandise Service" cars would = certainly be used. They
>were more than
>just fancy paint. The special paint = identified cars
>specifically equipped
>inside for LCL cargo. They had some type = of load
>separators installed to
>enable the safe shipment of small odd size = packages.
>
>Regards,
>
>Andrew S. Miller
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

_______________________________________________________________= __
Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as = $29.95.
https://broadband.msn.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01C37EFE.11B407F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Ted, By the late 1950s to 1960s, freights LCL-1/2 had pretty much become TOFC trains filled out with reefers and hot merchandise. I have some freight consist sheets around here somewhere. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:56:10 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37F01.380D33B0 Content-Type: text/plain Folks; I would appreciate your feedback! Please take some time this weekend to look at the latest issue of "The Keystone Modeler" (Issue #2) and think about it, and get back to me with your wishes and thoughts. We are trying very hard to incorporate all the great feedback we received from you last month on this subject. For those of you that have not examined it, it can be obtained, for free of course, at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society website, at: www.prrths.com under National Chapter, scroll to "Bill of Lading", and click on "The Keystone Modeler" Do you like the format? The content? The images? What information do we need to add? Keeping in mind that the focus is modeling, and that "The Keystone" will continue to be the penultimate source for technical and historical knowledge, what else can we provide that is useful in your modeling? Let me know! Issue #3 will contain some detail on building a resin kit that I think the printed magazines don't have the page space to go into. So, I'd appreciate knowing if it is too much, or too little? Do the close-ups provide sufficient detail so you can see what we are talking about? Or, do you hate resin kits and/or gondolas? Do you want more on techniques? Materials? Paint? What? Do you want to send us your photos of your beautiful PRR layout? PRR equipment? Do you want to write an article on that great PRR modeling subject? I know you are all doing this stuff, because I keep seeing these models out there! And if you really want to tap into the body of knowledge on the PRR (and a subscription to the Keystone, if that isn't enough), why are you not a member of the society? Have a great weekend, and I look forward to hearing from you! Elden Gatwood Chairman, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee ------_=_NextPart_001_01C37F01.380D33B0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler

Folks;
I would appreciate your feedback!

Please take some time this weekend to look at the = latest issue of "The Keystone Modeler" (Issue #2) and think = about it, and get back to me with your wishes and thoughts.

We are trying very hard to incorporate all the great = feedback we received from you last month on this subject.

For those of you that have not examined it, it can be = obtained, for free of course, at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical = & Historical Society website, at:

www.prrths.com
under National Chapter, scroll to "Bill of = Lading", and click on "The Keystone Modeler"

Do you like the format? The content? The = images? What information do we need to add? Keeping in mind = that the focus is modeling, and that "The Keystone" will = continue to be the penultimate source for technical and historical = knowledge, what else can we provide that is useful in your = modeling? Let me know!

Issue #3 will contain some detail on building a resin = kit that I think the printed magazines don't have the page space to go = into. So, I'd appreciate knowing if it is too much, or too = little? Do the close-ups provide sufficient detail so you = can see what we are talking about? Or, do you hate resin kits = and/or gondolas? Do you want more on techniques? = Materials? Paint? What?

Do you want to send us your photos of your beautiful = PRR layout? PRR equipment? Do you want to write an article = on that great PRR modeling subject? I know you are all doing this = stuff, because I keep seeing these models out there!

And if you really want to tap into the body of = knowledge on the PRR (and a subscription to the Keystone, if that isn't = enough), why are you not a member of the society?

Have a great weekend, and I look forward to hearing = from you!

Elden Gatwood
Chairman, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee

------_=_NextPart_001_01C37F01.380D33B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:48:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Bowser K9 and 11 From: Frederick Ripley Hi All, The recent discussion of stock cars made me think about the roof colors. Is it correct that when these cars were rebuilt in the early 1960's they started out with silver roofs, and then a couple of years later the roofs were covered with some kind of tar, so therefore black? (there is something about this to accompany some photos at Altoona in one of the PRR books; can't remember which one). I know Bowser does some of the K9's with a silver roof, but these are much more expensive and also they are still on the 1st series of nos. For the cars that Bowser sells with a freight car red roof (same color as the car), has anyone tried painting the roofs silver or black? They are nice-looking models, and I would like to have the roofs match the prototype, 1965-67. Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 21:50:16 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] and Hurricaines Sorry to hear that PRR-Talk was a victim of Isabel. There was also minor damage to the Eastern Shore Railway with at least six large trees on the tracks between Exmore and Nassawadox (old PRR Delmarva mainline) today in the aftermath of Isabel....perhaps AMTRAK was wise in early cancellation of anything going through central Virginia where over 2 million folks are without electric power. What you see on the news is what everybody's house and yard looks like along the path. Those of you who have never experienced a hurricane up close and personal can't understand the widespread havoc. I live about 110 miles north of the eye track, 55 miles from Norfolk so we got only the northern fringe of this thing. We still had 40-60 knot winds and heavy rain from 9am Thursday until 3 am Friday. No real damage to me or the house but six pickup loads of limbs and debris removed ...so far. In historical hurricane news the Great Hurricane of 1933 is responsible for the PRR (ex-BC&A - Batlimore, Chesapeake & Atlantic or Black Cinders& Ashes) not going to Ocean City, MD anymore. The storm completely removed the causeway and trestle of the rail road and created the south inlet there -- several hundred yards wide and a half mile or so wide from ocean to bay -- in less than four hours. Jim McDaniel, safe and dry in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Pgh Chapter/Don Wood, Lists, Just got back home from a nice little evening meet with the Pgh Chapter of the PRRT&HS and special guest Don Wood. Many personal stories were told and lots of photos were on display. A nice turnout and I am sure those who had never met Don before, easily had the opportunity to speak with him one on one. A perfect informal setting. Thanks goes out to Don Coulter and Frank Kuhn for putting this together for the fellows in Western Pa.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pgh Chapter/Don Wood, Lists, Just got back home from a nice little evening meet with the Pgh Chapter of the PRRT&HS and special guest Don Wood. Many personal stories were told and lots of photos were on display. A nice turnout and I am sure those who had never met Don before, easily had the opportunity to speak with him one on one. A perfect informal setting. Thanks goes out to Don Coulter and Frank Kuhn for putting this together for the fellows in Western Pa.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay & Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:18:03 -0700 Anyone have a recording of the clunk-slap-hiss of a pneumatic switch machine? John -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Thursday, September 18, 2003 2:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Sounds >While writer Thomas Wolfe wrote that only Penn Station was large enough >to hold the sound of time, I'd have to respectfully disagree and say >that an open interlocking tower is also a good candidate. I've had the >opportunity to visit Cork, Harris, State, Rockville, Mifflin, Lewis, >Spruce, Alto, SO, and several on B&O around the Pittsburgh area. Just >visiting a tower for a period longer than, say, 15 or 20 minutes, gave >you a tangible sense of the passage of time, which might be something >close to the "sound of time." The sounds, the rituals, and the cycles >were universal, and went something like this: > >+ The operator getting the call (on the company phone) from the next >tower with a lineup. This involved a pre-arrranged number of rings for >each tower or location. The operator pressing a foot-activated treadle >to talk and releasing the treadle to listen. Hearing the alternating >click and hum as the conversation went back and forth. >+ The operator taking dictation and recording "19" orders from a >dispatcher, then reading it back "that's seven-naught-two..." and >closing it with "...made complete at 10:25 a.m., RGL (the practice on >initials varied -- some roads used the dispatcher's initials while >others used the operator's.) >+ The annunciator bell, usually loud but sometimes with a dull thud from >paper being stuffed into it to keep it from resonating too long. When >the bell rang, the tension in the air kicked up a notch, because of the >implied imminent arrival of a train. >+ The soft whirring of the timer on the interlocking plant, after the >operator set up a route, to keep switches from being thrown under a train. >+ The approach and passage of the train. At night, the sound was not >actually louder but usually seemed so perhaps because of the more humid >night air (in summer, that is), plus the lack of visual stimuli. >+ The smooth, critically important, but absolutely noiseless process of >an operator hooping up orders. Not a sound per se, but a lack of sound >in contrast to the noise of the passing engines and cars. >+ The differing sound of the wheels on a switch or crossover at the head >vs. at the end of a train as it passed. >+ The occasional radio conversation between the operator and the crew, >especially if one was known to the other. >+ And the operator, again using the foot treadle, calling the next tower >to report the train "by", as in "by Jacks", "by Lewis", etc. Also, the >operator shooting the breeze with the next operator up the line, >gossiping about the dispatcher or other operators. This banter created a >sense of connectedness, cooperative work, order, importance, and >accomplishment -- but at the same time it went on in a low-key way, that >is, never rushed or excited. It was an atmosphere and a sequence of >sounds that you never found inside the general offices of a railroad. > >Dan Cupper >Harrisburg, Pa. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >William Bigler wrote: > >>The thread on railroad aromas and smells elicited so much response and so much good stuff (I plan to summarize it), I thought I'd start one on railroad sounds. Many are obvious, but an awful lot are subtle, but unmistakeable. Hopefully when it's run its course I'll summarize this one two. Some of the stories were especially good. To lead off: >> >>1. The crash of two freight cars coupling together at night a bit too hard, when all was silent beforehand. >> >>2. A steam freight pulling out of a siding accelerating with a long train, again at night, with no wheelsips at all. >> >>3. A steam freight pulling out of a siding struggling to start a long train with a lot of backing to take slack, trying again, finally getting moving, but lots of wheel slips all the way up to speed. >> >>4. A communicating whistle in a steam cab, the hiss of the reverse lever being moved forward, hiss of air being released, bell starting, two whistle blasts, safety valves letting loose, and deafening exhausts starting up and slowly building up to speed and one continuous roar. >> >>5. An Alemite grease gun in a yard. >> >>6. A brakeman pulling the air drain on air tanks on cars as he walks a cut of cars just set out. >> >>You get the idea - let's hear 'em! >> >>Bill Bigler - 4915 >>Big Flats NY >>Modeling PRR Renovo & >> Williamsport WWII >> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> >>Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). >>http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 >>http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM >>---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> >> >>"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. >> >>To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = >>PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:58:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HW 12-1 Models From: Jerry @ Pennsy Okay, rivetcounters... I need numerous N scale Pullman 12-1's for my PRR fleet. I need some plan 2410's, some 3410's, and some 3410A's. Apparently the 3410's and 3410A's had identical (or very close) window arrangements. I have a bunch of Pecos River Brass cars to repaint and they portray these cars pretty closely. Photos of 2410's show that their window arrangement is quite different. Did anyone ever do the 2410 version in N scale? I don't have any of the old Atlas units to look at, so I don't know what they represent. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:44:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HW 12-1 Models From: Jamie Bothwell Jerry, I don't have an N scale car, and I normally model in S scale, but I happen to have an HO 12-1 that I am working on for a friend. I think they are both from Rivarossi, so they might have the same windows. I would say that it most closely resembles a 3410B from Lot 6351. This is the only one to have the two shorter windows in the washrooms between two standard height windows. Many plans only have one small window there, and many have windows of the same height as the other windows in the car. What appears to be the major difference between a 2410 and a 3410 is that the 2410's used paired windows in the end isles. Of course the isle is in the middle in the center of the car. The 3410 have two single windows in the isle area. This gives the 2410's the appearance of having more sections. Hope this helps. Jamie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Varnish, Al B, List, I know that the PRR when it came to painting a Locomotive when it wasn't really ready for painting, used Varnish for a Top Coat. It suppsedly brought back to life the DGLE. Was this your everyday Varnish found at the local hardware store or was this a special coating, unavailable to the avergae Joe? What I need it for is our ocal Chapter is the care taker of an x-NKP B/W Caboose. The paint that is on it now is really fading or the alkyline is coming thru. I tested a spray varnish on an area to see what would happen and it actually killed the white and the bright red is alive and well. We now want to give the whole caboose a top coat. Will this varnish from the hardware store hold up OK? We don't want to see it flake in the year ahead. Eventually a new paint job is planned, oh, maybe 4-5 years from now. Any tips? Will good old Varnish be our way to go?...Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:03:20 GMT Subject: [PRR] LCL Items From: Dominic Mazoch 1. On the NYC, the Pacemaker cars which just had their car numbers stayed on line. Fully marked cars could go off line. 2. On the SP, some of the Overnight cars were painted olive green, and ran on the head end of passenger trains. 3. On the MoPac Lines, their LCL cars were marked to stay on MPL. 5. If the PRR things like the SP, a solid LCL train would run on its own, usually not mixed with anything else, at least in the beginning. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:07:06 GMT Subject: [PRR] TOFC on Passenger Trains From: Dominic Mazoch Did the PRR use TOFC on passenger trains? Thanks, Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:52:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TOFC on Passenger Trains -------------------------------1064112743 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dominic. During my brief stay with the PRR, I never saw TOFC on a passenger train. However after the merger I did see ex-NYC Flexivans on the eastbound Juniata or the Dickens. Ray Burghart #948473 SPF -------------------------------1064112743 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dominic.

During my brief stay with the PRR, I nev= er saw TOFC on a passenger train. However after the merger I did see ex-NYC=20= Flexivans on the eastbound Juniata or the Dickens.

Ray Burghart

#948473

SPF

-------------------------------1064112743-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:31:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] LCL cars originally home road - MS, Pacemaker, Sentinel --part1_a.35ce25f8.2c9ee60e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/19/03 6:44:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question > From: "Ted Andrews" > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:48:06 +0000 > > Jerry wrote: > > >I, too, would be interested to know if other roads' LCL cars would > >interchange or would each stay on their home systems? Gize, I agree with Bob Zoeller's comments... The intention was for these 'specially equipped merchandise cars to stay on home rails. The B&O, for example, published a huge manual on how to route LCL between freight houses, using this fleet of cars. The Pennsy should not have been any different. The extra equipment on an LCL car (DF bars or their early competitors) was expensive, and only a limited number of cars were so equipped. The last thing it wanted to do was interchange these cars. Obviously, when LCL service was abandoned (early 60's?), these cars were available for other usage, and would have been interchanged freely. > > Good question: I read somewhere that the NYC Pacemaker cars essentially > stayed on home rails. It would be great to get confirmation on this as well. There's a lock on this -- originally, Pacemaker cars were in 174xxx series and did not carry the required markings for interchange. Later on, they were renumbered into 175xxx series (the changed digit is obvious in most photos) and had interchange-required dimensional data added. BTW, it's been entertaining over the years to see model manufacturers get this right (and wrong). Natch, almost every ___ with a boxcar die put out a Pacemaker car because it's so colorful. Being (rebuilt) NYC cars, it's doubtful any of the models put out were more than generically related to the Pacemaker car. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a.35ce25f8.2c9ee60e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/19/03 6:44:49 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist=20= Question
From: "Ted Andrews" <ted_andrews@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:48:06 +0000

Jerry wrote:

>I, too, would be interested to know if other roads' LCL cars would
>interchange or would each stay on their home systems?

Gize,

I agree with Bob Zoeller's comments...

The intention was for these 'specially equipped merchandise cars to stay on=20= home rails. The B&O, for example, published a huge manual on how t= o route LCL between freight houses, using this fleet of cars.

The Pennsy should not have been any different. The extra equipment on=20= an LCL car (DF bars or their early competitors) was expensive, and only a li= mited number of cars were so equipped. The last thing it wanted to do=20= was interchange these cars.

Obviously, when LCL service was abandoned (early 60's?), these cars were ava= ilable for other usage, and would have been interchanged freely.

Good question: I read somewhere that the NYC Pacemaker cars essentially
stayed on home rails. It would be great to get confirmation on this as well.=

There's a lock on this -- originally, Pacemaker cars were in 174xxx series a= nd did not carry the required markings for interchange. Later on, they= were renumbered into 175xxx series (the changed digit is obvious in most ph= otos) and had interchange-required dimensional data added.

BTW, it's been entertaining over the years to see model manufacturers get th= is right (and wrong). Natch, almost every ___ with a boxcar die put ou= t a Pacemaker car because it's so colorful. Being (rebuilt) NYC cars,=20= it's doubtful any of the models put out were more than generically related t= o the Pacemaker car.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_a.35ce25f8.2c9ee60e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser K9 and 11 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:32:34 -0400 Fred Ripley asked: "Is it correct that when these cars were rebuilt in the early 1960's they started out with silver roofs, and then a couple of years later the roofs were covered with some kind of tar, so therefore black? (there is something about this to accompany some photos at Altoona in one of the PRR books; can't remember which one)." According to Richard Burg in "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East" (Railroad Model Craftsman, January 1993, p 101), Class K9 received aluminum paint on the roof of cars when they were converted in 1959. The following is a breakdown of lettering and roof color variations from the Burg article and the three Morning Sun PRR Color Guides: Lettering: Early = Large "PENNSYLVANIA" + "PRR" Roman reporting marks. "LIVESTOCK SERVICE" stenciled above top row of vent holes to the right of upper door track. Analogous to boxcar scheme SK2a without, obviously, the Keystone. Late = Block Gothic "PRR" reporting marks. Analogous to boxcar scheme PK without, again, the Keystone. Sources: RMC = Richard Burg, "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East," Railroad Model Craftsman, January 1993, p 101. PRR Vol 1 = PRR Color Guide (David Sweetland/Robert Yanosey) PRR Vol 2 = PRR Color Guide Vol 2 (Ian Fischer) PRR Vol 3 = PRR Color Guide Vol 3 (Ian Fischer) Photo summaries are in the following format: Car No., Class, Scheme, Photo Location, Photo Date, Source. Prototype Car (Freight Car Color roof): PRR 59268, X32A, SK2a, Ft. Wayne IN, Feb 1959, RMC. Aluminum Roofs: PRR 135395, K9, Early, Ft. Wayne IN, Jul 1959, RMC. PRR 131075, K9, Early, Horseshoe Curve, c. 1969, RMC (paint worn, car number restenciled in Gothic numerals). PRR 131269, K9B, Early, Unknown, c. 1965, RMC. PRR 130501, K11, Early, Builder's photo, c. 1961, RMC. PRR 130038, K9A, Early, Ft Worth TX, Jan 28 1962, PRR Vol 1. PRR 131044, K9, Late (with "LIVESTOCK SERVICE"), Columbus OH, Nov 21 1962, PRR Vol 2. PRR 131253, K9B, Early, Columbus OH, Nov 21 1962, PRR Vol 2. PRR 130519, K11, Early, Columbus OH, Mar 1962, PRR Vol 2. PRR 130554, K11, Early, Columbus OH, Feb 25 1962, PRR Vol 2. Black Roofs: PRR 130061, K9A, Late, Philadelphia PA, Mar 27 1965, RMC/PRR Vol 1. PRR 130073, K9A, Roman reporting marks with worn paint allowing SK1b boxcar scheme to show, Nov 1965, PRR Vol 2. PRR 131288, K9B, Late, Unknown, Nov 1965, PRR Vol 2. PRR 131244, K9B, Late, Unknown location and date, PRR Vol 3. Inconclusive: PRR 131236, K9B, Late, Columbus OH, Mar 1971, PRR Vol 2. Cuts of Cars: Horseshoe Curve, October 1 1968, PRR Vol 1 14 cars visible, 2 early scheme, 12 late scheme, all have black roofs. Columbus OH, Nov 21 1962, PRR Vol 2 12 cars visible, 12 early scheme, all have aluminum roofs (6 showing considerable wear) Unknown location, March 1965 5 cars visible, 1 early scheme, 4 late scheme, all have black roofs. Generally, cars the early scheme had silver roofs, and cars with later schemes had black roofs. "I know Bowser does some of the K9's with a silver roof, but these are much more expensive and also they are still on the 1st series of nos. For the cars that Bowser sells with a freight car red roof (same color as the car), has anyone tried painting the roofs silver or black? They are nice-looking models, and I would like to have the roofs match the prototype, 1965-67." It's not difficult - carefully mask the car along the lower edge of the roof below the lower row of rivets where the roof joins the sides, and have at it. The tracks remain freight car color. Not all cars with silver roofs got aluminum paint on the doors - the upper door track immediately above the door also got painted silver for with silver doors. For your 1965-67 time period, it looks like you'll have a mix of cars in the early scheme with silver roofs (some with enough wear to see FCC showing through on the roofs) and cars in the late scheme with black roofs. When in doubt, always model from photos. We've been seeing quite a few stock car questions lately - if you don't already have a copy of the Richard Burg article in the January 1993 RMC, I recommend you get one as it will answer many of your questions on Pennsy's later livestock operations. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: Smoke Collectors List, I attended the train show near Toledo Ohio today and stopped by Bob Lorenz's (famous Ohio area Rail Photographer of the past) table to take a look at his photos he was so nice to record for us youngens who missed out on Steam. The conversation led me to asking him if he was familiar with the Chicago Yard area where the Smoke Collectors were. He said yes and knew exactly what I was talking about. I asked him if he ever took photos of locos using these. To my surprise he said yes and he may have them with him. Unfortunately we couldn't find any in his boxes he had present with him. I then asked him if he remembered which Loco was in the view with the Smoke Collectors. Again to my amazement he knew exactly which loco he was referring to. The S2 Turbine! I then asked him if the S2 was actually using the Smoke Collector while sitting there. He said he believed so. So now I have him looking in his collection of negatives when he gets home. I will give him a few weeks and then contact him to see if he had any luck finding it. I am anxious to see how this 4 Chambered Stack S2 Loco used this contraption. Hopefully one can tell from the pic. Will let you know later.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Consist Question Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:13:41 -0400 Ted Andrews asked at the beginning of this thread: "According to official PRR Freight Schedules, these "Less than Car Load" trains hauled LCL merchandise and forwarder cars/traffic. What did this exactly mean in terms of consist? Did this mean that the cars on these trains were express reefers, boxcars, and so on? Would these trains have a lot of Merchandise Service cars on it? Would there be other types of cars that would help identify this train as an LCL?" and "Would express cars from other railroads be found on LCL trains? Would cars like NYC Pacemaker, B&O Sentinel cars, etc. been found as well as REA cars and PRR Merchandise Service cars?" This thread has wandered quite a bit since Ted first posted his questions - time to tie some of these posts together for the big picture: LCL vs. Express: Jerry Britton is correct in stating that LCL and Express were mutually exclusive services, and you wouldn't see REA cars on LCL trains. The quickest way to tell an express boxcar from an LCL car is that the express car is equipped with steam and signal lines to allow it to run in passenger trains. (Usually the "Express" or "Railway Express Agency" stencil is a dead giveaway too.) See Vic Roseman's "Railway Express: An Overview" for more information on REA, and the July 2000 OPSIG "Dispatcher's Office" for comparison of LCL, express, and freight forwarder services. LCL Operations: LCL cars ran in two types of operations. "Straight" LCL cars moved between freight houses and transfers, online and interline, while "peddler" cars in local trains handled individual shipments at small stations, usually without being set out. The cars that we've been discussing handled "straight" LCL traffic. The April 2003 "Dispatcher's Office" reprinted an article from a 1954 issue of "American Magazine" titled "Riding the Rails with the Fast Freight," in which the travels of UP 177656 are chronicled for two weeks by a reporter who followed the car on the trains that the car ran. The first leg of the trip was from Boston to Utica with LCL, first over the B&M, then interchanged to the NYC at Mechanicsville. Once the car was spotted at the Utica freight house, the car broke bulk and the individual shipments were routed to trucks for local delivery, or other cars depending on destination. The empty car was routed to Buffalo, where it was loaded with a shipment of Angel Food cake mix for Alexandria, VA via the PRR. Equipment: Lost in the discussion of specially painted/equipped LCL cars is the fact that ordinary boxcars handled the vast majority of LCL. Much of the improvements in scheduling and integrating rail-truck service actually happened in the 1930s, and photographs taken during the 1940s in the Library of Congress FSA-OWI collection documenting ordinary boxcars from many roads at freight terminals in Chicago. Photos from the 1950s continue to show a preponderance of ordinary boxcars in LCL service. Getting back to Ted's next question of whether or not the specially painted/equipped LCL boxcars of the late 1940s-early 1950s were interchanged, the answer is not at first. These new, clean boxcars were very attractive to shippers and were pressed into general service once LCL traffic fell off. (This happened even earlier - M. D. McCarter documented an SP postwar "Overnight" boxcar in Peru, IN in 1948.) The original NYC "Pacemaker" cars (NYC 174000-174999) mentioned before were originally rated at only 25 tons, again to make them less attractive to load off-line. (Remember, a nationwide shortage of boxcars persisted during the 1940s and 1950s, and new, clean boxcars looked real good to yard clerks harassed by shippers looking for empties.) BTW, if you want to model these cars correctly, you'll need to cut down a Branchline 6 ft door post-war boxcar by 6 inches in height to make a 10 ft IH car. (I've got a couple of Train-Miniature X29 carcasses decorated in the Pacemaker scheme. Obviously, these will be stripped and repainted.) (As for the SP cars, the olive green Class B-50-24 cars (SP 5700-5749) are express boxcars, NOT the SP 97620-98069 black Class B-50-24 "Overnight" cars. Same class of boxcars, different service.) Bob Zoeller wrote: "It just struck me that as the cars got bigger they may have forced some shippers to go to trucks or LCL dependent on the volume of their typical shipments. What is a carload in an X-29 may not have been in an X-31 and so on. So if a shipper was sending a carload on a regular basis he either has to carry more inventory to fill up a bigger car or find alternate cost effective shipping companies. Bigger cars which would be better for the railroad may have helped cause the demise of business with the shippers." I think this is just coincidence. By the time larger capacity boxcars became commonplace, LCL traffic was already beginning to fall off drastically as the greater flexibility of trucking became apparent for this type of business. I doubt that not being able to fill a carload was a major factor in a shipper deciding to switch from rail to trucks. (BTW, NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES.) For more info on LCL operations, see the April 2002 and April 2003 OPSIG Dispatcher's Office. Back issues are $4.00 each postpaid from: James Allamian 217 Hiawatha Trail Wood Dale IL 60191-2251 JAllamian@aol.com Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:48:49 -0400 Elden, Group. I did have a question that I didn't bring up when the isue came out. I saw the list of the HO Gon manufacturers but no wher did I see Bowser? Are all of their Gons wrong????? Hope it isn't a dumb question. SamV >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, "'PRR-Modeling@egroups.com'" > >Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler >Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:56:10 -0700 > > > >Folks; >I would appreciate your feedback! > >Please take some time this weekend to look at the latest issue of "The >Keystone Modeler" (Issue #2) and think about it, and get back to me with >your wishes and thoughts. > >We are trying very hard to incorporate all the great feedback we received >from you last month on this subject. > >For those of you that have not examined it, it can be obtained, for free of >course, at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society >website, >at: >www.prrths.com >under National Chapter, scroll to "Bill of Lading", and click on "The >Keystone Modeler" > >Do you like the format? The content? The images? What information do we >need to add? Keeping in mind that the focus is modeling, and that "The >Keystone" will continue to be the penultimate source for technical and >historical knowledge, what else can we provide that is useful in your >modeling? Let me know! > >Issue #3 will contain some detail on building a resin kit that I think the >printed magazines don't have the page space to go into. So, I'd appreciate >knowing if it is too much, or too little? Do the close-ups provide >sufficient detail so you can see what we are talking about? Or, do you >hate >resin kits and/or gondolas? Do you want more on techniques? Materials? >Paint? What? > >Do you want to send us your photos of your beautiful PRR layout? PRR >equipment? Do you want to write an article on that great PRR modeling >subject? I know you are all doing this stuff, because I keep seeing these >models out there! > >And if you really want to tap into the body of knowledge on the PRR (and a >subscription to the Keystone, if that isn't enough), why are you not a >member of the society? > >Have a great weekend, and I look forward to hearing from you! > >Elden Gatwood >Chairman, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser Class GS Gon (was: The Keystone Modeler) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:10:19 +0000 Sam Vastano asked: "I saw the list of the HO Gon manufacturers but no where did I see Bowser? Are all of their Gons wrong?" Depends on the era you model. Bowser makes only one HO scale gon, Class GS. Unfortunately, they chose to cut dies to model earlier cars, which means the hand brake details on the B end is in mirror image to the requirements of the Safety Appliances Act. This is actually correct, and is great if you model pre-1920, but is incorrect for the majority of us who model post-1940. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:14:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car From: Jerry Britton I had e-mailed BLI last week asking them to consider making six packs of the new stock car, without sound, if it is indeed a PRR K7a depiction. No response yet. However, BLI has updated their web site and they are indeed claiming it to be a PRR K7a. There's a drawing. One of you "experts" want to express an opinion? http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/k7stockcar.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:18:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Kato F3 Correction From: Jerry Britton With apologies, I need to make a correction to a post I made about a week ago. The post was on the new N scale F3's and focused on the forthcoming InterMountain F3. I made a quick statement about the forthcoming Kato F3 as being a "Phase I". I made the mistake of posting that based on what was on a distributor's web site. Unfortunately, that web site was incorrect. The new Kato F3 is, in fact, a "Phase II". Again, sorry! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:35:11 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: However, BLI has updated their web site and they are indeed claiming it to be a PRR K7a. There's a drawing. One of you "experts" want to express an opinion? http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/k7stockcar.htm It's a drawing of a Class K7A stock car all right: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html? photo=PRR_135499_K7A_MLC1939.jpg&fr= Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bert Decker" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:50:55 -0400 Hey Jerry (and List, too!) I just went to the BLI website and was struck by the fact that the K7a was going to have either cattle or hog sounds. Won't it be just a little cramped on the cattle to be shoved into a double-deck car? IIRC, the K7a was a full-time double-decker and was not easily converted. And besides, I'd druther have sheep sounds! Bert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:08:22 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car >I had e-mailed BLI last week asking them to consider making six packs >of the new stock car, without sound, if it is indeed a PRR K7a >depiction. No response yet. > >However, BLI has updated their web site and they are indeed claiming it >to be a PRR K7a. There's a drawing. One of you "experts" want to >express an opinion? Morning Y'all... While tickled pink that a K7a may get made, and annoyed as heck about the marketing, I do feel I should point out that Broadway does NOT say it will be a K7a. What they say, precisely is: "Our model is based on the Pennsylvania Railroad K7A design..." ^^^^^ Now, I don't know EXACTLY what that means, but to get an accurate K7a will require some careful attention to the details on their part. These include in particular, the way in which the metal braces overlap at the top and bottom. For an example of the care needed, you should look at the westerfield X23...stunning and very accurate work. As for the BLI, we'll just have to wait and see.. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:29:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] HW 12-1 Models Jerry Asks: >I need numerous N scale Pullman 12-1's for my PRR fleet. I need some >plan 2410's, some 3410's, and some 3410A's. > >Apparently the 3410's and 3410A's had identical (or very close) window >arrangements. I have a bunch of Pecos River Brass cars to repaint and >they portray these cars pretty closely. Jaime replies: > Jerry, > I don't have an N scale car, and I normally model in S scale, but I >happen to have an HO 12-1 that I am working on for a friend. I think >they are both from Rivarossi, so they might have the same windows. I >would say that it most closely resembles a 3410B from Lot 6351. >What appears to be the major difference between a >2410 and a 3410 is that the 2410's used paired windows in the end >isles. Not exactly! The Rivarossi cars (in HO) are actually probably closest to a plan 2410 car (2410F) w/o airconditioning (although they are also close to a 3410B). The plan 2410 cars were 1' shorter than the 3410 cars and the Riv car is the correct length for the 2410. In addition, early plan 2410 cars were built with the double aisle windows, but later plans (eg 2410F) were not. Rebuilt 2410 cars that were in later series often retained their double windows. Thus, a plan 2410I (originally plan 2410) does have the doubles! These conclusions are based on examination of the passenger car list archives at Yehaw and a number of mainline modeler and RP Cyc articles on the subject. I would suggest in N that you use the Pecos brass 3410, 3410A to represent these common types and modify the n-scale Riv to make the 2410 subtypes. In HO, Branchline will FINALLY release the long awaited Pullmans starting late this or early next year. Coming very soon will be a 3410/3410A, so wait for those and use the Riv for the 2410 series. BTW, for the history of any given Pullman car, use Tom Madden's outstanding Pullman database at: http://home.att.net/~tgmadden/Pullman_CCR_Text.htm Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:18:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Should scales split off into separate lists? No! --part1_14c.2449b31e.2ca05e99_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/03 6:17:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of List Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2- or > 3-railers on this list ???? > From: "Hpallesen" > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:08:16 +0200 > > Hi PRR fans, > I am a Danish PRR fan building a new PRR/(NYC) 0-scale layout here in Reims, > 1h 30' from Paris, France! > I spend too much time on this list, that I should have spent building my > layout and I am unfortunately without any PRR friends that could and would > help me here ! > I would like to find a site where less non 0-scale posts arrived in my > e-mail ! It would be wonderful, if this list was divided in some groups, one > to be for somebody like me, who are not interested (at the moment) in a lot > of HO etc. e-mails ! > Please help me with some ideas, either here or direct to me: > h2pallesen@wanadoo.fr > If you e-mail me your phone number, I can call you, I have a very cheap > phonecall provider ! > Hope to get some response, before I have to leave this list, due to too many > e-mails ! > > Regards Hugo B. Pallesen > Hugo, Rather than let the list strangle you, I'd suggest two actions: 1. subscribe to the digest form. It's much easier to read what interests you and skip over the rest. And if you model Pennsy, you still need the general-interest stuff that appears here anyway. 2. start posting O scale or O 3-rail messages here. We already have healthy volumes of HO and N scale on this list; I can't think why 1/4" scale should be any different. In case you wonder, 90% of my modeling is PRR in HO. But the other 10% is activity on On3 layouts -- and I'd love to model the historic Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern (which was almost Pennsy's third narrow gauge railroad) in American Gn3. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14c.2449b31e.2ca05e99_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/17/03 6:17:37 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of Li= st Participants-any other PRR 0-scale 2- or 3-railers on this list ????
From: "Hpallesen" <h2pallesen@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:08:16 +0200

Hi PRR fans,
I am a Danish PRR fan building a new PRR/(NYC) 0-scale layout here in Reims,=
1h 30' from Paris, France!
I spend too much time on this list, that I should have spent building my
layout and I am unfortunately without any PRR friends that could and would help me here !
I would like to find a site where less non 0-scale posts arrived in my
e-mail ! It would be wonderful, if this list was divided in some groups, one=
to be for somebody like me, who are not interested (at the moment) in a lot<= BR> of HO etc. e-mails !
Please help me with some ideas, either here or direct to me:
h2pallesen@wanadoo.fr
If you e-mail me your phone number, I can call you, I have a very cheap
phonecall provider !
Hope to get some response, before I have to leave this list, due to too many=
e-mails !

Regards Hugo B. Pallesen

Hugo,

Rather than let the list strangle you, I'd suggest two actions:
1. subscribe to the digest form. It's much easier to read what interes= ts you and skip over the rest. And if you model Pennsy, you still need= the general-interest stuff that appears here anyway.
2. start posting O scale or O 3-rail messages here. We already have he= althy volumes of HO and N scale on this list; I can't think why 1/4" scale s= hould be any different.

In case you wonder, 90% of my modeling is PRR in HO. But the other 10%= is activity on On3 layouts -- and I'd love to model the historic Cincinnati= Lebanon & Northern (which was almost Pennsy's third narrow gauge railro= ad) in American Gn3.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_14c.2449b31e.2ca05e99_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:59:09 -0500 Looking at the bright side, if it is accurate, at least they picked the largest class of PRR stock car of the era. And I don't understand the statement by a poster that it is a fixed double deck car. Or is the SC (convertible) classification in error on the website? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:03:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C380F0.D4E994D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote: "And I don't understand the statement by a poster that it is a fixed double deck car. Or is the SC (convertible) classification in error on the website?" My January 1953 ORER also lists it as a convertible car, class SC. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C380F0.D4E994D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I=20 wrote:

"And I don't=20 understand the
statement by a poster that it is a fixed double deck=20 car. Or is the SC
(convertible) classification in error on the=20 website?"

My January 1953 ORER also lists = it as a=20 convertible car, class SC.

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C380F0.D4E994D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:06:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BLI GG-1's From: Jerry Britton Just a head's up... BLI is offering limited quantities of GG-1's out of "open stock". In other words, they filled all of their dealer orders and there are units remaining for 8 of the 9 original paint schemes. So if you passed on the first "go round" or want additional units, here's your chance to snatch them up! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:29:51 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3811E.5D9602A0 Content-Type: text/plain Sam; I haven't looked at the list recently, but the Bowser GS should be on it. As Ben said, it is only accurate as-is for the as-built version. There will be a piece on re-working this model in the November (?) TKM, by the noted modeler and great humanitarian, Jim Hunter. Other than that one, Bowser is not making any other gons that I know of. No, no. There is no such thing as a dumb question. It is only dumb when people DON'T ask questions. It took me a while to figure out most of this stuff, and I still can't claim to be any expert. But ONE of us should have an answer! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 4:49 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler Elden, Group. I did have a question that I didn't bring up when the isue came out. I saw the list of the HO Gon manufacturers but no wher did I see Bowser? Are all of their Gons wrong????? Hope it isn't a dumb question. SamV >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, "'PRR-Modeling@egroups.com'" > >Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler >Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:56:10 -0700 > > > >Folks; >I would appreciate your feedback! > >Please take some time this weekend to look at the latest issue of "The >Keystone Modeler" (Issue #2) and think about it, and get back to me with >your wishes and thoughts. > >We are trying very hard to incorporate all the great feedback we received >from you last month on this subject. > >For those of you that have not examined it, it can be obtained, for free of >course, at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society >website, >at: >www.prrths.com >under National Chapter, scroll to "Bill of Lading", and click on "The >Keystone Modeler" > >Do you like the format? The content? The images? What information do we >need to add? Keeping in mind that the focus is modeling, and that "The >Keystone" will continue to be the penultimate source for technical and >historical knowledge, what else can we provide that is useful in your >modeling? Let me know! > >Issue #3 will contain some detail on building a resin kit that I think the >printed magazines don't have the page space to go into. So, I'd appreciate >knowing if it is too much, or too little? Do the close-ups provide >sufficient detail so you can see what we are talking about? Or, do you >hate >resin kits and/or gondolas? Do you want more on techniques? Materials? >Paint? What? > >Do you want to send us your photos of your beautiful PRR layout? PRR >equipment? Do you want to write an article on that great PRR modeling >subject? I know you are all doing this stuff, because I keep seeing these >models out there! > >And if you really want to tap into the body of knowledge on the PRR (and a >subscription to the Keystone, if that isn't enough), why are you not a >member of the society? > >Have a great weekend, and I look forward to hearing from you! > >Elden Gatwood >Chairman, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3811E.5D9602A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler

Sam;
I haven't looked at the list recently, but the = Bowser GS should be on it. As Ben said, it is only accurate as-is = for the as-built version. There will be a piece on re-working = this model in the November (?) TKM, by the noted modeler and great = humanitarian, Jim Hunter. Other than that one, Bowser is not = making any other gons that I know of.

No, no. There is no such thing as a dumb = question. It is only dumb when people DON'T ask questions. = It took me a while to figure out most of this stuff, and I still can't = claim to be any expert. But ONE of us should have an = answer!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] =
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 4:49 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; = PRR-Modeling@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler

Elden, Group.

I did have a question that I didn't bring up when the = isue came out. I saw
the list of the HO Gon manufacturers but no wher did = I see Bowser? Are all
of their Gons wrong?????

Hope it isn't a dumb question.

SamV

>From: ELDEN GATWOOD = <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>
>To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, = "'PRR-Modeling@egroups.com'"
><PRR-Modeling@egroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler
>Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:56:10 -0700
>
>
>
>Folks;
>I would appreciate your feedback!
>
>Please take some time this weekend to look at = the latest issue of "The
>Keystone Modeler" (Issue #2) and think = about it, and get back to me with
>your wishes and thoughts.
>
>We are trying very hard to incorporate all the = great feedback we received
>from you last month on this subject.
>
>For those of you that have not examined it, it = can be obtained, for free of
>course, at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical = & Historical Society
>website,
>at:
>www.prrths.com
>under National Chapter, scroll to "Bill of = Lading", and click on "The
>Keystone Modeler"
>
>Do you like the format? The content? The = images? What information do we
>need to add? Keeping in mind that the = focus is modeling, and that "The
>Keystone" will continue to be the = penultimate source for technical and
>historical knowledge, what else can we provide = that is useful in your
>modeling? Let me know!
>
>Issue #3 will contain some detail on building a = resin kit that I think the
>printed magazines don't have the page space to = go into. So, I'd appreciate
>knowing if it is too much, or too = little? Do the close-ups provide
>sufficient detail so you can see what we are = talking about? Or, do you
>hate
>resin kits and/or gondolas? Do you want = more on techniques? Materials?
>Paint? What?
>
>Do you want to send us your photos of your = beautiful PRR layout? PRR
>equipment? Do you want to write an article = on that great PRR modeling
>subject? I know you are all doing this = stuff, because I keep seeing these
>models out there!
>
>And if you really want to tap into the body of = knowledge on the PRR (and a
>subscription to the Keystone, if that isn't = enough), why are you not a
>member of the society?
>
>Have a great weekend, and I look forward to = hearing from you!
>
>Elden Gatwood
>Chairman, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee

_______________________________________________________________= __
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low = as $29.95/month
(depending on the local service providers in your = area).
https://broadband.msn.com

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3811E.5D9602A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bert Decker" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Car Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:52:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C38108.54E633C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Convertible, you say? Erk, that's my third mistake this week and it's = only Monday! Okay, given that it's convertible, where did they store = the "second" floor? Were there overhead racks under the roof or did = they remove them like the racks in an oven and store them someplace out = of harm's way?. I assUme racks under the roof else the flooring parts = get lost but ya never know with P Co. Bert P.S. I'd still druther have sheep sounds over the snort-squeal of = Kielbasa on the hoof, so-to-speak. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C38108.54E633C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =FF=FE<=00!=00D=00O=00C=00T=00Y=00P=00E=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =00P=00U=00B=00L=00I=00C=00 = =00"=00-=00/=00/=00W=003=00C=00/=00/=00D=00T=00D=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =004=00.=000=00 = =00T=00r=00a=00n=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00a=00l=00/=00/=00E=00N=00"=00>=00= =0D=00=0A= =00<=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00<=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00t=00e=00x=00t=00/=00h=00t=00m=00= l=00;=00 = =00c=00h=00a=00r=00s=00e=00t=00=3D=00u=00n=00i=00c=00o=00d=00e=00"=00 = =00h=00t=00t=00p=00-=00e=00q=00u=00i=00v=00=3D=00C=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00= t=00-=00T=00y=00p=00e=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00M=00S=00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =005=00.=000=000=00.=002=006=001=004=00.=003=005=000=000=00"=00 = =00n=00a=00m=00e=00=3D=00G=00E=00N=00E=00R=00A=00T=00O=00R=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00<=00/=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00/=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00 = =00b=00g=00C=00o=00l=00o=00r=00=3D=00#=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00"=00C=00o=00p=00p=00e=00r=00p=00l=00a=00t=00e=00= =00G=00o=00t=00h=00i=00c=00 =00L=00i=00g=00h=00t=00"=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00H=00i=00 = =00B=00o=00b=00,=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D= =00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D= =00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00"=00C=00o=00p=00p=00e=00r=00p=00l=00a=00t=00e=00= =00G=00o=00t=00h=00i=00c=00 =00L=00i=00g=00h=00t=00"=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00C=00o=00n=00v=00e=00r=00t=00i=00b=00l=00= e=00,=00 =00y=00o=00u=00 =00s=00a=00y=00?=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 = =00=0D=00=0A= =00E=00r=00k=00,=00 =00t=00h=00a=00t=00'=00s=00 =00m=00y=00 = =00t=00h=00i=00r=00d=00 =00m=00i=00s=00t=00a=00k=00e=00 = =00t=00h=00i=00s=00 =00w=00e=00e=00k=00 =00a=00n=00d=00 = =00i=00t=00'=00s=00 =00o=00n=00l=00y=00 = =00M=00o=00n=00d=00a=00y=00!=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 = =00O=00k=00a=00y=00,=00 =00g=00i=00v=00e=00n=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00t=00h=00a=00t=00 =00i=00t=00'=00s=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00v=00e=00r=00t=00i=00b=00l=00e=00,=00 = =00w=00h=00e=00r=00e=00 =00d=00i=00d=00 =00t=00h=00e=00y=00 = =00s=00t=00o=00r=00e=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 = =00"=00s=00e=00c=00o=00n=00d=00"=00 = =00f=00l=00o=00o=00r=00?=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00W=00e=00r=00e=00 = =00t=00h=00e=00r=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00o=00v=00e=00r=00h=00e=00a=00d=00 =00r=00a=00c=00k=00s=00 = =00u=00n=00d=00e=00r=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00r=00o=00o=00f=00 =00o=00r=00 = 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=00L=00i=00g=00h=00t=00"=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00P=00.=00S=00.=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00= =00I=00'=00d=00 =00s=00t=00i=00l=00l=00 =00d=00r=00u=00t=00h=00e=00r=00 = =00=0D=00=0A= =00h=00a=00v=00e=00 =00s=00h=00e=00e=00p=00 =00s=00o=00u=00n=00d=00s=00 = =00o=00v=00e=00r=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 = =00s=00n=00o=00r=00t=00-=00s=00q=00u=00e=00a=00l=00 =00o=00f=00 = =00K=00i=00e=00l=00b=00a=00s=00a=00 =00o=00n=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 = =00h=00o=00o=00f=00,=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00s=00o=00-=00t=00o=00-=00s=00p=00e=00a=00k=00.=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00= = =00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00/=00B=00O=00D=00= Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C38108.54E633C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:06:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: Penn Texas Chapter news From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" All The Penn Texas Chapter held its summer meeting in Temple, TX on Saturday. Great place to meet and watch trains, even if they aren't PRR. There is a plate from a J1 and some photos of PRR equipment in the RR museum. For anyone in the area interested in joining in Chapter activities, the fall, spring and next summer locales are set. The fall meet will be in Galveston, TX, at the Galveston RR Museum and the Galveston Model RR Club, on December 6. This meet is in conjunction with the RR Museum's annual "Santa's Whistlestop" train show and the Galveston Historical Association's "Dickens-on-the-Strand" weekend. Plans are to have the Texas Gulfliner running from Galveston to Alvin one day and Galveston to League City the other (each about a 45 minute ride one way). Not PRR, but you can ride a train. Jeff Johnson, former Conrail engineer, offered to give a presentation on operating a diesel locomotive. I am coordinating the meeting. Lots of Pennsy stuff on the Club layout, including my 80 car PRR coal train featuring Gla, H21a and H22a hoppers pulled by a three unit Erie-built set. The spring meeting will be held in Carrolton, TX, at a date to be determined. Jerry Schoenberg will host the meeting. Jerry has an HO scale layout that features a 4 track Horseshoe Curve mainline More on the meet as information becomes available The summer meeting will be in August in Burnet, TX, in conjunction with the Burnet rail fair. Rides from Burnet to Burtram are offered in PRR P-70 coaches. Bill Laird offered to coordinate the meeting. More on the meet as information becomes available Don Harper Interim Secretary Penn Texas Chapter PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:50:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C38118.D8821DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: There will be a piece on re-working this model [Bowser GS] in the November (?) TKM, by the noted modeler and great humanitarian, Jim Hunter. Yes, it will be in the November issue. Oct. = GR/GRa, Nov. = GS. Al ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C38118.D8821DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Re: There will be a = piece on=20 re-working this model [Bowser GS] in the November (?) TKM, by the noted = modeler=20 and great humanitarian, Jim Hunter.

Yes, it will be in = the November=20 issue. Oct. =3D GR/GRa, Nov. =3D GS.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C38118.D8821DB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] stockcars and the trains they were part of Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:47:19 +0000 Due to the federal time limits for moving stock without watering and/or feeding I assume they were run at the very least in blocks. How were cars handled at yards? I assume they were a priority. Were there solid stock trains? If so how many cars made up a stock train typically. How were they handled at the receiving location - yard and customer? Thanks for any input. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] PRR Baggage Car door windows: square or round? When did the PRR convert the baggage door windows from to round portholes from the square windows? I cannot seem to find dated drawings or tracings to pin this down. I model 1937: just before the lightweight era, and my guess is that I my models should have square windows, but I am not sure when the portholes started. Thanks in advance!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:58:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] stockcars and the trains they were part of From: Jerry Britton On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 03:47 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Due to the federal time limits for moving stock without watering and/or > feeding I assume they were run at the very least in blocks. How were > cars > handled at yards? I assume they were a priority. Were there solid > stock > trains? If so how many cars made up a stock train typically. How > were they > handled at the receiving location - yard and customer? Thanks for any > input. I can't answer all your questions, but in my research for modeling an 8 hour shift in 1954, I have the following to model... FW-8 - Man o' War Chicago to Harsimus Cove Entire train -- 9 blocks of all sorts of livestock for all sorts of destinations! http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/FW-8.ws4d CIN-2 - The Captivator Cincinnati to Enola 1 block of hogs and lambs http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/CIN-2.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:15:16 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Bowser K9 and K11 more... QmVuLCBGcmVkIGFuZCBhbGwsCgpPbmUgdGhpbmcgQmVuIGZhaWxlZCB0byBtZW50aW9uIGFu ZCBwZXJoYXBzIGp1c3QgYW4gb3ZlcnNpZ2h0IGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNhcnMgYXMgZGVsaXZl cmVkIGFsc28gaGFkIFNJTFZFUiBET09SUy4gVGhlIHNpbHZlciBwYWludCBvbiB0aGUgZG9v cnMgYXBwZWFycyB0byBoYXZlIGZhZGVkIGF3YXkgaW4gc2VydmljZSBvdmVyIHRoZSBjb3Vy c2Ugb2YgNSB5ZWFycyBvciBzby4gVGhlIHBhaW50IG9uIHRoZSByb29mIHNob3cgcHJvYmxl bXMgZGV2ZWxvcGluZyB3aXRoIHJ1c3QgYW5kIHRoYXQgbGVhZHMgbWUgdG8gYmVsaWV2ZSB0 aGF0IHRoZSBkZWNpc2lvbiB0byBjb2F0IHRoZSByb29mIHdpdGggYXNwaGFsdHVtLiAgCgpU aGVyZSBpcyBhbiBpbmhlcmVudCBwcm9ibGVtIHdpdGggdGhlIEJvd3NlciBjYXIgdGhhdCB3 ZSBwZXJoYXBzIHNlZW0gdG8gb3ZlciBsb29rIGFuZCB0aGF0IGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNhciBo YXMgInJ1Yi1yYWlscyIgaW4gdGhlIHVwcGVyIG9wZW5pbmdzIGFsb25nIHRoZSB0b3Agb2Yg dGhlIGNhci4uLiBUaGlzIHdvdWxkIGJlIGZpbmUgaWYgdGhlc2UgY2FycyB3ZXJlICJkb3Vi bGUtZGVjayIgY2FyLCBidXQgdGhlIERvdWJsZS1EZWNrIGNhcnMgaGF2ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQg b3BlbmluZ3MgdGhhbiB0aGUgc2luZ2xlIGRlY2sgY2Fycywgd2hpY2ggdGhlIEJvd3NlciBj YXIgc2VlbXMgdG8gcmVwbGljYXRlLiBKdXN0IGFuIG9ic2VydmF0aW9uIGJ1dCB0cnkgdG8g ZmluZCBhIGRvdWJsZSBkZWNrIGNhciB3aXRoIHRoZSBzYW1lICJvcGVuaW5ncyIgYXMgdGhl IEJvd3NlciBjYXIgZGVwaWN0cy4gWW91IHdvbid0IG9yIGF0IGxlYXN0IEkgaGF2ZW4ndC4g UmVtZW1iZXIsIHdlcmUgdGFsa2luZyBhIDUwLWZvb3QgY2FyLiBUaGUgb3BlbmluZ3MgY2hh bmdlZCBhcyB0aGUgcHJvZHVjdGlvbiBjb250aW51ZWQuIEFsc28gYW5vdGhlciBvYnNlcnZh dGlvbiBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBzY3JlZW5pbmcgb24gdGhlIHNpbmdsZSBkZWNrIGNhcnMgc2Vl bWVkIHRvIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBlbGltaW5hdGVkIGVhcmx5IChwZXJoYXBzIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBu b3QgZGVsaXZlcmVkIHdpdGggaXQgYXQgYWxsLCBjYW4gc29tZW9uZSBjb25maXJtIHRoaXM/ KSBhbmQgdGhlbiBhbGwgdGhlIHNjcmVlbmluZyBzZWVtZWQgdG8gYmUgZWxpbWluYXRlZCBh cyB0aGUgY2FycyBnb3Qgb2xkZXIuIE1ZIGNvbmNsdXNpb24gaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgUFJSIGNy ZXdzIGNsZWFuaW5nIHRoZSBjYXIgcmVtb3ZlZCB0aGUgc2NyZWVuaW5nIGZvciBlYXNlIG9m IGNsZWFuaW5nIHRoZSB3YXN0ZSBwcm9kdWN0cy4gWW91IGNhbiBzZWUgY2FycyB0aGF0IHN0 aWxsIGhhdmUgdGhlIHNjcmVlbmluZyBzZWVtIHRvIGNvbGxlY3QgZGVicmlzIGJldHdlZW4g dGhlIHJ1YiByYWlscyBhbmQgdGhlIHNjcmVlbiBtYXRlcmlhbC4gSSB0aGluayB0aGUgY2xl YW4gb3V0IGNyZXdzIHJlYWxpemVkIHRoYXQgZXZlbiBzbWFsbCBsaXZlc3RvY2sgY291bGRu J3QgZmFsbCBvdXQgb2YgdGhlIGNhcnMuLi4gM14pIHNvIHRoZSBzY3JlZW4gbWF0ZXJpYWwg d2FzIHNvbWV3aGF0IG9mIGEgd2FzdGUuIEkgdGhpbmsgaXQgaXMgYSBmYWlyIGNvbmNsdXNp b24gdGhhdCB5b3UgY291bGQvc2hvdWxkIHJlbW92ZSB0aGUgdXBwZXIgc2NyZWVuaW5nL3J1 YiByYWlscyBlbnRpcmVseSB0byBwcm9wZXJseSBkZXBpY3QgdGhlIEs5ICg1MC1mb290IGNh cikuIE5ldmVydGhlbGVzcywgSSB3b3VsZCBtdWNoIHJhdGhlciBoYXZlIGFuZCBvcGVuaW5n IGluIG15IGNhcnMgdGhhbiBzY3JlZW4gYW5kIHJ1YiByYWlscy4gSSB3b3VsZCBzZXJpb3Vz bHkgZG91YnQgdGhhdCBtb3N0IGxhcmdlIGZvcm1zIG9mIGxpdmVzdG9jayBjb3VsZCBqdW1w IHRocm91Z2ggdGhlIHVwcGVyIG9wZW5pbmdzIGFuZCBzdGlsbCBiZSBzbWFsbCBlbm91Z2gg dG8gbWFrZSBpdCBvdXQgb2YgdGhlIGNhcnMuLi4gYnV0IEkgc3VwcG9zZSBJIGNvdWxkIGJl IHdyb25nLi4uIDNeKSAKCkZyZWQgd2l0aCBtaW5vciBjaGFuZ2VzIHRvIHRoZSBvcGVuaW5n cyB0byB0aGUgY2FyIGFuZCBhIGxpdHRsZSB0aW1lIHNwZW50IHVwZ3JhZGluZyB0aGUgY2Fy cyB3aXRoIG5ldyBsYWRkZXJzL2xhZGRlciBncmFicyBhbmQgb3RoZXIgZGV0YWlscyB5b3Ug Y2FuIG92ZXJjb21lIG1vc3Qgb2YgQm93c2VyJ3Mgc2hvcnRmYWxscy4gCgpUaGlzIHdvdWxk IGFsc28gYWxsb3cgZm9yIGEgc3BlYWtlciBhbmQgc29tZSBkdWJpb3VzIG5vaXNlcyBtYWRl IGF2YWlsYWJsZSBmcm9tIHRoZSBCTEkvQldMIHNvdW5kIHVuaXRzIGluIGEgY3Jvc3MgYmFz aC4uLiA8QklHQVNTRUFSVE9FQVJHUklOPiAKCktlZXAgJ3VtIFBvbGlzaGVkCkdyZWcgTWFy dGluIAo= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:57:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] stockcars and the trains they were part of From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-12-57702444 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 02:47 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Due to the federal time limits for moving stock without watering and/or > feeding I assume they were run at the very least in blocks. How were > cars > handled at yards? I assume they were a priority. Were there solid > stock > trains? If so how many cars made up a stock train typically. How > were they > handled at the receiving location - yard and customer? Thanks for any > input. A very interesting shot in the video Pennsy Steam and Diesel Years vol 1(IIRC). A single stock car is shown at the head end of an oil train during WWII and the announcer says " a stock car being expedited east...". At that time, the oil trains had rights over just about everything else on the line, so that would be one way to fill out the tonnage and get the stock there. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-12-57702444 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 02:47 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: Due to the federal time limits for moving stock without watering and/or feeding I assume they were run at the very least in blocks. How were cars handled at yards? I assume they were a priority. Were there solid stock trains? If so how many cars made up a stock train typically. How were they handled at the receiving location - yard and customer? Thanks for any input. A very interesting shot in the video Pennsy Steam and Diesel Years vol 1(IIRC). A single stock car is shown at the head end of an oil train during WWII and the announcer says " a stock car being expedited east...". At that time, the oil trains had rights over just about everything else on the line, so that would be one way to fill out the tonnage and get the stock there. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-12-57702444-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Baggage Car door windows: square or round? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:31:27 -0400 Fred, I rode the LIRR past Sunnyside Yard in Long Island City many a time during the 1950's and recall that PRR's baggage and express car fleet still had a considerable number of cars with the paneled two rectangular window door at that time. I recall that even then I thought that door better looking than the "porthole" version. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Talasco" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 3:55 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Baggage Car door windows: square or round? > When did the PRR convert the baggage door windows from > to round portholes from the square windows? I cannot > seem to find dated drawings or tracings to pin this > down. I model 1937: just before the lightweight era, > and my guess is that I my models should have square > windows, but I am not sure when the portholes started. > > Thanks in advance!! > > Fred > > > > ===== > Fred Talasco > > > "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: Smoke Collectors List, I attended the train show near Toledo Ohio today and stopped by Bob Lorenz's (famous Ohio area Rail Photographer of the past) table to take a look at his photos he was so nice to record for us youngens who missed out on Steam. The conversation led me to asking him if he was familiar with the Chicago Yard area where the Smoke Collectors were. He said yes and knew exactly what I was talking about. I asked him if he ever took photos of locos using these. To my surprise he said yes and he may have them with him. Unfortunately we couldn't find any in his boxes he had present with him. I then asked him if he remembered which Loco was in the view with the Smoke Collectors. Again to my amazement he knew exactly which loco he was referring to. The S2 Turbine! I then asked him if the S2 was actually using the Smoke Collector while sitting there. He said he believed so. So now I have him looking in his collection of negatives when he gets home. I will give him a few weeks and then contact him to see if he had any luck finding it. I am anxious to see how this 4 Chambered Stack S2 Loco used this contraption. Hopefully one can tell from the pic. Will let you know later.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:31:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR 12 wheel tank car --part1_20.1927a01c.2ca0d257_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This photo from the Phillipsburg, N.J. group that is preserving their local rail heritage. Recall may be a year ago the two twelve wheel tank cars being discussed. http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/prrh2//past/pic52.html Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_20.1927a01c.2ca0d257_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This photo from the Phillipsburg, N.J. group th= at is preserving their local rail heritage.

Recall may be a year ago the two twelve wheel tank cars being discuss= ed. http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/prrh2//past/pic52.html

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_20.1927a01c.2ca0d257_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] stockcars and the trains they were part of Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:35:23 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" > I can't answer all your questions, but in my research for modeling an 8 > hour shift in 1954, I have the following to model... > > FW-8 - Man o' War > Chicago to Harsimus Cove > Entire train -- 9 blocks of all sorts of livestock for all sorts of > destinations! This train also carried meat, other perishables, and other freight (except high and wide) as far as Pittsburgh. On a given day, I surmise from the trade press it was still heavily livestock. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:18:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HW 12-1 Models From: Jamie Bothwell On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 09:29 AM, Bruce F. Smith wrote: Not exactly! The Rivarossi cars (in HO) are actually probably closest to a plan 2410 car (2410F) w/o airconditioning (although they are also close to a 3410B). The plan 2410 cars were 1' shorter than the 3410 cars and the Riv car is the correct length for the 2410. In addition, early plan 2410 cars were built with the double aisle windows, but later plans (eg 2410F) were not. Bruce and All, The photo and diagram of a 2410F in "Passenger Car Catalog" by Kratville does not show a window arrangement like that on the Rivarossi 12-1, so they may have differed by lot number also, or that book could be wrong. Thanks for the heads up on the Pullman database. I'm sure that will be useful. Jamie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:28:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] stockcars and the trains they were part of --part1_b4.22927d99.2ca0fba7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the november 1955 blocking of FW-8 see http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/FW-8.htm This has all the blocking from Chicago to Harrimus Cove and the schedule. Rich Orr --part1_b4.22927d99.2ca0fba7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the november 1955 blocking of FW-8 see http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/FW-8.htm=

This has all the blocking from Chicago to Harrimus Cove and the schedule.
Rich Orr --part1_b4.22927d99.2ca0fba7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:44:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser K9 and 11 --part1_7c.3d2abe74.2ca10da8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote from work this afternoon in part .... >There is an inherent problem with the Bowser car that we perhaps seem to over look and that is that the car has "rub-rails" in the upper openings along the top of the car... This would be fine if these cars were "double-deck" car, but the Double-Deck cars have different openings than the single deck cars, which the Bowser car seems to replicate. Just an observation but try to find a double deck car with the same "openings" as the Bowser car depicts. You won't or at least I haven't.< Well, guess what my statement specifically "You won't or at least I haven't..." and now I have. I overlooked two photos in the PRR Color Guide #1. There is a Dick Kuelbs photos of 130038 in Fort Worth, TX on 1/28/62 in early paint and with the "upper berth" rub rails... This helps! I wanted to do a car in the early scheme and add the silver roof and doors. The shot below on the same page shows a K9A with the "upper berth" but with the wider openings which eliminated the 13-inch tall PENNSYLVANIA and allowed only for the Gothic lettering. Both cars still have their screening. However know both version exists makes for more options and eras. Keep 'um Polished Greg Martin --part1_7c.3d2abe74.2ca10da8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote from work this afternoon in part= ....

>There is an inherent pro= blem with the Bowser car that we perhaps seem to over look and that is that=20= the car has "rub-rails" in the upper openings along the top of the car... Th= is would be fine if these cars were "double-deck" car, but the Double-Deck c= ars have different openings than the single deck cars, which the Bowser car=20= seems to replicate. Just an observation but try to find a double deck car wi= th the same "openings" as the Bowser car depicts. You won't or at least I ha= ven't.<

Well, guess wh= at my statement specifically "You won't or at least I haven't..." and now I=20= have. I overlooked two photos in the PRR Color Guide #1. There is a Di= ck Kuelbs photos of 130038 in Fort Worth, TX on 1/28/62 in early paint and w= ith the "upper berth" rub rails... This helps! I wanted to do a car in= the early scheme and add the silver roof and doors. The shot below on the s= ame page shows a K9A with=20= the "upper berth" but with the wider openings which eliminated the 13-inch t= all PENNSYLVANIA and allowed only for the Gothic lettering. Both cars still=20= have their screening. However know both version exists makes for more option= s and eras.

Keep 'um Polished
Greg Martin
--part1_7c.3d2abe74.2ca10da8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:52:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82 --0-516531013-1064285537=:78608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List- does anyone know where to find a photo or digital image of the 210F82 tender with the 6 wheel trucks?? According to the Keystone Summer 2002 pg 16 table the 210F82 tender in fig 5 had 6 wheel trucks in 1942. Just as the Bowser I1 kit does. But the photos I have seen on line (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/), in books (Ball, Hastings) or diagrams on Rob's site do not show a 210F82 with 6 wheel trucks. All photos I have seen show 8 wheel trucks. Can the Keystone drawing be incorrect?? Thanks in advance. Chris Sawicki --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-516531013-1064285537=:78608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

List- does anyone know where to find a photo or digital image of the 210F82 tender with the 6 wheel trucks??

According to the Keystone Summer 2002 pg 16 table the 210F82 tender in fig 5 had 6 wheel trucks in 1942. Just as the Bowser I1 kit does.

But the photos I have seen on line (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/), in books (Ball, Hastings) or diagrams on Rob's site do not show a 210F82 with 6 wheel trucks. All photos I have seen show 8 wheel trucks.

Can the Keystone drawing be incorrect??

Thanks in advance. Chris Sawicki

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-516531013-1064285537=:78608-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:56:32 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C3816D.87F032B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris--The Keystone drawing is correct. Keep in mind that there were = three different tenders of this size used on I1's: (1) 210F82--Except for the deck height (82"), this is the same tender = delivered with the M1a with a deck height of 75". These found their way = onto M1's as well as a few I1's after the shop force welded on the = higher deck. Identify this tender by rows of rivets on the side panels = and six wheel trucks. The Bowser tender would be suitable for modeling = this tender. The Keystone of June 1983 in "Big, Fat, and Dirty" shows = 4629 with this tender. In Nelson's "Philip R. Hastings Portrait of the = Pennsylvania Railroad" on page 71 is a great photo of this tender. = However, I believe the caption is in error describing the engine as an = I1; I believe it is an M1 or M1a/b. In any event it is the same = tender. (2) 210F82a--Also could be found with 75" deck height with M1 and M1a/b = engines. Welded sides--no rows of rivets--and eight wheel trucks. As = you have found, this class was much more common with the I1 than 210F82. (3) 210F82b--From everything I have been able to find out, there were = only a few of these tenders, and they differed only from the "a" above = in the stoker arrangement. Bottom line, the "a" or "b" --or the lack thereof--are important in = designating which class. Note that all three of these classes could = have either the one man or three man doghouse installed. Does this help? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C3816D.87F032B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Chris--The Keystone drawing is = correct. =20 Keep in mind that there were three different tenders of this size used = on=20 I1's:

(1) 210F82--Except for the deck height = (82"), this=20 is the same tender delivered with the M1a with a deck height of = 75". These=20 found their way onto M1's as well as a few I1's after the shop force = welded on=20 the higher deck. Identify this tender by rows of rivets = on=20 the side panels and six wheel trucks. The Bowser tender would = be=20 suitable for modeling this tender. The Keystone of June 1983 in = "Big, Fat,=20 and Dirty" shows 4629 with this tender. In Nelson's "Philip R. = Hastings=20 Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad" on page 71 is a great photo of = this=20 tender. However, I believe the caption is in error describing the = engine=20 as an I1; I believe it is an M1 or M1a/b. In any event it is = the=20 same tender.

(2) 210F82a--Also could be found with = 75" deck=20 height with M1 and M1a/b engines. Welded sides--no rows of = rivets--and=20 eight wheel trucks. As you have found, this class was much more = common=20 with the I1 than 210F82.

(3) 210F82b--From everything I have = been able to=20 find out, there were only a few of these tenders, and they differed only = from=20 the "a" above in the stoker arrangement.

Bottom line, the "a" or "b" --or the = lack=20 thereof--are important in designating which class. Note that all = three of=20 these classes could have either the one man or three man doghouse=20 installed.

Does this help?

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C3816D.87F032B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:06:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Re: I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82 Chris, list, I'm away from my reference material, but as I recall things, some of the PRR's earliest 210Fxx tenders (210F75 for M1, 210F82 for I1s/I1sa, 210F78 for N2sa) had six wheel trucks; I think there were only six or seven of these tenders, so not very common. The welded tenders with 8 wheel trucks were 210F82a, if memory serves. List, please correct my failable memory as necessary. Doug --- Chris Sawicki wrote: > List- does anyone know where to find a photo or > digital image of the 210F82 tender with the 6 wheel > trucks?? > > According to the Keystone Summer 2002 pg 16 table > the 210F82 tender in fig 5 had 6 wheel trucks in > 1942. Just as the Bowser I1 kit does. > > But the photos I have seen on line > (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/), in books (Ball, > Hastings) or diagrams on Rob's site do not show a > 210F82 with 6 wheel trucks. All photos I have seen > show 8 wheel trucks. > > Can the Keystone drawing be incorrect?? > > Thanks in advance. Chris Sawicki __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:35:34 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3817B.5DB661A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, According to Circular 109-J (May 15, 1948), tender class 210F82 had 3F1T1 trucks (6 wheel, 33" wheel dia.) while class 210F82a had 4F5T1 trucks (8 wheel, 36" wheel dia.) Rob http://prr.railfan.net Hopefully I'll have the 109-J online soon... -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chris Sawicki Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:52 PM To: PRRTalk; Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82 List- does anyone know where to find a photo or digital image of the 210F82 tender with the 6 wheel trucks?? According to the Keystone Summer 2002 pg 16 table the 210F82 tender in fig 5 had 6 wheel trucks in 1942. Just as the Bowser I1 kit does. But the photos I have seen on line (http://www.northeast.railfan.net/), in books (Ball, Hastings) or diagrams on Rob's site do not show a 210F82 with 6 wheel trucks. All photos I have seen show 8 wheel trucks. Can the Keystone drawing be incorrect?? Thanks in advance. Chris Sawicki ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3817B.5DB661A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris,

According to Circular 109-J (May 15, 1948), tender=20 class

210F82=20 had 3F1T1 trucks (6 wheel, 33" wheel dia.) while

class=20 210F82a had 4F5T1 trucks (8 wheel, 36" wheel dia.)

Rob

http://prr.railfan.net<= /DIV>

Hopefully I'll have the 109-J online = soon...

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chris = Sawicki
Sent:=20 Monday, September 22, 2003 10:52 PM
To: PRRTalk; Doug=20 Kisala
Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question-=20 210F82

List- does anyone know where to find a photo or digital image of = the=20 210F82 tender with the 6 wheel trucks??

According to the Keystone Summer 2002 pg 16 table the 210F82=20 tender in fig 5 had 6 wheel trucks in 1942. Just as the Bowser I1 = kit=20 does.

But the photos I have seen on line (http://www.northeast.railfan.n= et/),=20 in books (Ball, Hastings) or diagrams on Rob's site do not show a = 210F82=20 with 6 wheel trucks. All photos I have seen show 8 wheel = trucks.

Can the Keystone drawing be incorrect??

Thanks in advance. Chris Sawicki

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design=20 software

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3817B.5DB661A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] 210F82 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:12:51 -0400 Howdy Chris, If you are looking for 6 wheel trucks on a welded tender, I have never seen it. Besides, I am under the general impression that the 82 deck height was for the J1. I have detail shots of the M1a tender in Strasburg that most do not have. I got a release about 10 years ago and climbed all over that engine! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:12:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] 210F82 Howdy Chris, If you are looking for 6 wheel trucks on a welded tender, I have never seen it. Besides, I am under the general impression that the 82 deck height was for the J1. I have detail shots of the M1a tender in Strasburg that most do not have. I got a release about 10 years ago and climbed all over that engine! Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Track Plans Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:25:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C381AC.3A333BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone out there have a Track Plan or pictures of the Turntable at = Franklin City, Va. on the old MD&V Ry. from Harrington, DE. to Franklin = City, Va. also? I would like to borrow them for copy for an up coming Talk I have to = give at Remember When Day at Greenbackville, Va. I would appreciate any help and will pay for the use or copy of = anything. Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C381AC.3A333BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone out there have a Track Plan or pictures of the = Turntable at=20 Franklin City, Va. on the old MD&V Ry. from Harrington, DE. to = Franklin=20 City, Va. also?

I would like to borrow them for copy for an up coming Talk I have = to give=20 at Remember When Day at Greenbackville, Va.

I would appreciate any help and will pay for the use or copy of=20 anything.

Lee Burbage

BMCM USCG-Ret.

leeprrswitchkey@msn.com

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C381AC.3A333BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:16:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] HW 12-1 Models From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-4-116436942 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 08:18 PM, Jamie Bothwell wrote: > Bruce and All, > The photo and diagram of a 2410F in "Passenger Car Catalog" by > Kratville does not show a window arrangement like that on the > Rivarossi 12-1, so they may have differed by lot number also, or that > book could be wrong. Thanks for the heads up on the Pullman database. > I'm sure that will be useful. > Jamie Jaime, I'm not familiar with that photo...and I don't have Kratville. For the 2410F, I was going on what Tom Madden said on the passenger car list: Tom said: >> Replace the short lounge windows in the Riv 12-1 with N.E.R.S. >> full-height >> lounge windows. Otherwise, it's correct for 2410F. The rivet pattern >> on the >> Rivarossi Pullman isn't correct for anything, but it's more correct >> for >> 2410F and later cars than for the resheathed versions of the 2410 >> through >> 2410E. Plans 2410 through 2410E also had paired aisle windows, another >> reason it's simpler to modify the Riv to a 2410F. What car is pictured (and when)? Any chance of a scan (off list)? The Traeger drawings in Mainline Modeler do not include the 2410F, but do indicate that the paired windows were only used on early 2410s (and their subsequent rebuilds), and not the models built later. I am particularly interested in the 2410F as it made up a large number of the Tourist cars used for troop sleepers during WWII. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4-116436942 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 08:18 PM, Jamie Bothwell wrote: Bruce and All, The photo and diagram of a 2410F in "Passenger Car Catalog" by Kratville does not show a window arrangement like that on the Rivarossi 12-1, so they may have differed by lot number also, or that book could be wrong. Thanks for the heads up on the Pullman database. I'm sure that will be useful. Jamie Jaime, I'm not familiar with that photo...and I don't have Kratville. For the 2410F, I was going on what Tom Madden said on the passenger car list: Tom said: Replace the short lounge windows in the Riv 12-1 with N.E.R.S. full-height lounge windows. Otherwise, it's correct for 2410F. The rivet pattern on the Rivarossi Pullman isn't correct for anything, but it's more correct for 2410F and later cars than for the resheathed versions of the 2410 through 2410E. Plans 2410 through 2410E also had paired aisle windows, another reason it's simpler to modify the Riv to a 2410F. What car is pictured (and when)? Any chance of a scan (off list)? The Traeger drawings in Mainline Modeler do not include the 2410F, but do indicate that the paired windows were only used on early 2410s (and their subsequent rebuilds), and not the models built later. I am particularly interested in the 2410F as it made up a large number of the Tourist cars used for troop sleepers during WWII. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4-116436942-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:23:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Free Buy/Sell Model Railroad Site From: Jerry Britton Due to expressed desire for a site where model railroaders can list items for sale or wanted, I have made changes to an existing site I had used for brass products. It is now called TrainSwap and it is located under the Keystone Crossings umbrella, but is not limited to the PRR roadname. This new site can be used -- for free -- for modelers to list what they are looking for or what they have for sale. This site is NOT to be used by dealers. No registration is required. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/trainswap/ Take it for a spin and let me know how I can make it better. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] 210F82 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:31:01 -0500 Hi Bill--Only one photo of a welded tender with 6 wheel trucks that I am aware of: Don Wood's "I Remember Pennsy" page 106 shows M1 6940 with an "odd" tender. It looks more like a 210F75 without rivets than a 210F75a or b with 6 wheel trucks. Also, if I am not mistaken, the J1 tenders had a deck height of 84". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:46:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82 From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3147151560_100054_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Steve wrote "(3) 210F82b--From everything I have been able to find out, there were only a few of these tenders, and they differed only from the "a" above in the stoker arrangement." There is are photos of what is claimed to be a 210F82b in Sweetland's Pennsy Steam Years, Volume 1, pp 102 and 103 Don Harper --MS_Mac_OE_3147151560_100054_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] I1s/I1sa tender question- 210F82

Steve wrote "(3) 210F82b--From everything I have be= en able to find out, there were only a few of these tenders, and they differ= ed only from the "a" above in the stoker arrangement."

There is are photos of what is claimed to be a 210F82b i= n Sweetland's Pennsy Steam Years, Volume 1, pp 102 and 103

Don Harper

--MS_Mac_OE_3147151560_100054_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:50:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] 4-Axle Passenger Tender Trucks --part1_e6.3eea90bd.2ca1a98b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seeing the thread concerning the 210F82 trucks, I wonder if any good photos or diagrams are available fo the 4-axle trucks found under the S1 and/or T1 tenders. Due to the skirting on the tenders, the trucks, or what little you can see, are usually in the shadows. Any help or direction would be appreciated. G.F.Payne --part1_e6.3eea90bd.2ca1a98b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seeing the thread concerning the 210F82 trucks, I wond= er if any good photos or diagrams are available fo the 4-axle trucks found u= nder the S1 and/or T1 tenders. Due to the skirting on the tenders, the= trucks, or what little you can see, are usually in the shadows. Any h= elp or direction would be appreciated.

G.F.Payne --part1_e6.3eea90bd.2ca1a98b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:53:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: Worthington Feedwater Heater From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I have more questions for the group. Worthington produced several types of feedwater heaters. The classic side-mounted type on I1 engines were of three possible varieties, B, BL and BL-2. The BL-2 is the later version and is easy to spot because it has a "hangy down" on the back side that gives it an inverted step appearance. Earlier versions have a squared off bottom, which I assume are either B or BL. What are the spotting features for differentiating these two types (if there are spotting features)? Worthington also produced S and SA versions that were mounted forward on the boiler. Did the PRR use any of these types? Thanks in advance. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] 4-Axle Passenger Tender Trucks G F, Find a photo of the heavy duty Flat car that used these same trucks. Should be able to see these in good detail. The Color Guides probably have something....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:37:35 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] 4-Axle Passenger Tender Trucks --------------030307090104080006070700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all: T1 tender trucks were recycled and re-used on the Queen Mary FD2 special-duty depressed-center flat car, of which many photos exist. Due to the design of the FD2 body, the trucks are well exposed for viewing and photographing, and the car has been preserved and displayed at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. A series of photos of the car exists at: http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/prr/245/prr470245.html Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. GFPat420@aol.com wrote: > Seeing the thread concerning the 210F82 trucks, I wonder if any good > photos or diagrams are available fo the 4-axle trucks found under the > S1 and/or T1 tenders. Due to the skirting on the tenders, the trucks, > or what little you can see, are usually in the shadows. Any help or > direction would be appreciated. > > G.F.Payne --------------030307090104080006070700 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all:

T1 tender trucks were recycled and re-used on the Queen Mary FD2 special-duty depressed-center flat car, of which many photos exist. Due to the design of the FD2 body, the trucks are well exposed for viewing and photographing, and the car has been preserved and displayed at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. A series of photos of the car exists at: http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/prr/245/prr470245.html

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

GFPat420@aol.com wrote:

Seeing the thread concerning the 210F82 trucks, I wonder if any good photos or diagrams are available fo the 4-axle trucks found under the S1 and/or T1 tenders. Due to the skirting on the tenders, the trucks, or what little you can see, are usually in the shadows. Any help or direction would be appreciated.

G.F.Payne

--------------030307090104080006070700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:27:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Window Shades in Passenger Cars From: Jerry Britton For my N scale model of the Penn Texas, I need one car in "Texas Special" livery. Rather than kill myself trying to learn "shadowlining" for one car, I hired someone to build the car for me since they'd already done a complete train. He really blew me away when he sent pics showing a detailed interior! And now he's got one side decalled (Swatara Rapids). He raised a question and I need some help. It's on the blinds. I know most folks use masking tape. He asks... ...most railroads use a fabric with an aluminized coating facing the outside of the car to reflect light and heat? I typically use some aluminum tape for shades to model this. Would that be correct for PRR? Can anyone comment on that? Masking tape or "aluminum" tape? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] HW 12-1 Models Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:30:22 -0700 Bruce and all, I used to have that book many years ago, and later found out that it was chock full 'o mistakes. This could well be one of them. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:16:22 -0500 Bruce Smith wrote: > > On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 08:18 PM, Jamie > Bothwell wrote: > > >Bruce and All, > > The photo and diagram of a 2410F in "Passenger Car > Catalog" by > >Kratville does not show a window arrangement like that > on the > >Rivarossi 12-1, so they may have differed by lot number > also, or that > >book could be wrong. Thanks for the heads up on the > Pullman database. > > I'm sure that will be useful. > >Jamie > > Jaime, > > I'm not familiar with that photo...and I don't have > Kratville. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:51:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RE: 3 axle pasdenger trucks From: Bruce Smith Ok Gang, Here's some more on 3 axle passenger trucks... I said: > 3D-P1 (3D7P2) This truck has swing hangers and does not have visible > drop > equalized frames. There are two holes in the side frame, on small > bulges > over the inner edge of the outer axles. Model? (Keystone?) > > 3D5P3 - plain bearings, prominent drop equalized frame, no swing > hangers, > and a hole directly over the outer axles. (note picture #7, p36, and > picture #1, p37, Spring 2003 appear to be 3D-P1 like trucks and not > 3D5P3s) > > 3D7P1 - the Spring 2003 Keystone shows a truck with roller bearings the > looks very similar to the 3D5P3 with a hole over the outer wheel, > prominent drop equalizers and no visible swing hangers > > Now here's the bad news...I looked at the truck ECW supplies with their > cars (labeled as 3D-P1). The truck has detail that might represent the > appropriate holes inboard of the outer wheel, but it has prominent drop > equalizers, and no visible swing hanges...Looks like a hybrid of the > 3D-P1/3D7P2 and the 3D5P3/3D7P1 designs. Several of you questioned what the ^%%$#%^ I was talking about ...It seems that not all Bachman 3 axle PRR trucks were created equal. There are in fact at least two variants, one of which IS an accurate 3D-P1 (3D7P2) with swing hangers and no drop equalizers. I scanned both Bachman trucks, the ECW and the Precision truck into one file for comparison. Here is the MONSTER 1.4 M file to help (GEEE, my new G5 loads it OK on a T1 line ). http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/PRR_3_axle_trucks.jpg Top to bottom: Bachman "Prewar" combine 5109 (huh?) "WHAT THE F&%" was my response on pulling this car out of the box...this is NOT the 3D-P1/3D7P2 truck. There is a prominent drop equalizer between each axle and there are no drain holes. This could be the plain bearing 3D5P3 if you add holes over the axles, although I'm not sure that the side frames are really right. Precision Scale (3D5P2) This is the next truck after the 3C-P1 and has no bottom bracing...seems pretty accurate. ECW (huh?) As noted above, prominent drop equalizers mean that this is not the clained 3D-P1/3D7P2 truck Bachman "Post war" Diner 9939 (3D-P1/3D7P2) Easy to identify - no drop equalizer, drain holes in little round protruding parts midway between axles. Well, I hope that clears everything up ;^)> Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] 4-Axle Passenger Tender Trucks Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:51:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019D_01C381E2.21E8E910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look at the Queen Mary at the ARRMM. nIt has the real trucks in real = time! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GFPat420@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 9:50 AM Subject: [PRR] 4-Axle Passenger Tender Trucks Seeing the thread concerning the 210F82 trucks, I wonder if any good = photos or diagrams are available fo the 4-axle trucks found under the S1 = and/or T1 tenders. Due to the skirting on the tenders, the trucks, or = what little you can see, are usually in the shadows. Any help or = direction would be appreciated. G.F.Payne=20 ------=_NextPart_000_019D_01C381E2.21E8E910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Look at the Queen Mary at the ARRMM. = nIt has the=20 real trucks in real time!

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 GFPat420@aol.com=20

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 23, = 2003 9:50=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] 4-Axle Passenger = Tender=20 Trucks

Seeing the thread concerning the 210F82 trucks, I = wonder if=20 any good photos or diagrams are available fo the 4-axle trucks found = under the=20 S1 and/or T1 tenders. Due to the skirting on the tenders, the = trucks, or=20 what little you can see, are usually in the shadows. Any help or = direction would be appreciated.

G.F.Payne=20 ------=_NextPart_000_019D_01C381E2.21E8E910-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:55:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BLI M1's From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement... Further suggesting that the Broadway Limited Imports M1 locos are still on track for November(ish) delivery, they have officially closed guaranteed orders. While you can still place orders after yesterday, they are now considered on "stand by". If you didn't reserve, the good news is that there are some extra GG-1's. But don't count on that being the regular practice! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: I1 tenders From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I was digging through a copy of the 1948 "Locomotive Cyclopedia: (the real one, not the Kalmbach version) and found the following that may be of interest to some. On page 869 is a line drawing of a 4 axle, riveted 13,900 gallon PRR tender. There are associated cut away drawings showing the ribs and baffles. I assume this is a 130F82. On page 870 is a line drawing of a 4 axle, 19,000 tender that must be a welded tender, as there are no rivets showing. Gives a top, side and 1/2 view of each end. This drawing is labeled as a 130F82a tender for use with the 2-10-0. On page 871 are photographs of the front end of the above. On page 861 is a photo of a 210F75b tender which, it is stated, is for use with the M1 locomotive. I also have a copy of the 1953 Cyclopedia and the differences are striking. In the '48 edition steam locomotives and tenders and their gadgets occupy most of the book; diesel locomotives occupy a small section toward the back. In the '53 edition, steam locomotives are relegated to a small section in the back. In some post in the dim recesses of time I think I remember someone saying the tender classification was based on the water capacity of the tank rounded to the nearest number and the height of the deck above the rail, and of course P for passenger and F for freight. So tell me, if this is true, why are the 130F series not 140F....? 13,900 is closer to 14,000 than to 13,000. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler --part1_14c.246763ae.2ca358d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Need help. I am going around in circles trying to find this site mentioned recently on this list. Would someone be so kind as to direct me. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_14c.246763ae.2ca358d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Need help. I am going around in circles trying t= o find this site mentioned recently on this list. Would someone be so=20= kind as to direct me.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_14c.246763ae.2ca358d1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:08:07 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382BE.6D287170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evan, I must presume from the title of the message that you are looking for the PRRT&HS new online magazine - "The Keystone Modeler," which comes out on the first Friday of the month, It is located on the Society's website at: www.prrths.com under "National; Society" "Keystone Modeler." The September edition can be access directly at: http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler_NO2.htm You can subscribe by clicking on the line below and sending - nothing else. < mailto:the-keystone-modeler-request@lists.keystone-pubs.org?Subject=subs cribe> Al ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382BE.6D287170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Evan,

I must presume from the title of = the message=20 that you are looking for the PRRT&HS new online magazine - "The = Keystone=20 Modeler," which comes out on the first Friday of the month,

It is located on the Society's = website at:=20 www.prrths.com under "National; = Society"=20 "Keystone Modeler."

The September edition can be = access directly=20 at:

http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler_NO2.ht= m

You can subscribe by clicking on = the line=20 below and sending - nothing else.

<mailto:the-keystone-modeler-request@lists.keyston= e-pubs.org?Subject=3Dsubscribe>

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382BE.6D287170-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:41:21 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Latest Keystone Maybe it's just me but we have to do something about the "Keystone". Every time it arrives in the mailbox, I want to drop everything I'm doing and read it from cover to cover. Then a few days after I read it, I want to re-read it in case I've missed something. This latest issue with the story of the Broadway Limited's run from Chicago eastward is a perfect example of the type of article that just enthralls me. Historical narratives like this should be in every issue. But if they are, then we wouldn't be able to get the next issue with the article on the "F" units that's the whole magazine. 64 pages just isn't enough. Congratulations to the whole crew, Bill Morlitz (and I won't even bring up the idea of doubling the dues so we can have either double the issues or double the number of pages.) :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Latest Keystone Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:16 -0400 Re: next issue with the article on the "F" units that's the whole magazine. This schedule for the F unit article has actually been changed as reported in the special edition of the e-NEWS. It was reported that a decision was made not to run the EMD F unit article (single theme-special edition) as the winter 2003 issue. Running the F Unit issue would have given us two special editions (the other being the summer TAT issue), as well as three single theme issues (the others being spring class D78 and summer TAT) within the same year. There are some people that don't like too many single theme issues and like the potpourri style. The EMD F unit issue is now likely to run in the summer of 2004 as the spring edition is planned to focus on the PRR and Cincinnati in conjunction with the annual meeting. At any rate the winter edition should be another winner. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:54:55 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] I wasn't expecting a centerfold I just opened the Keystone. Now I have to get a frame for "Joe". Thanks! -- Christopher O. Brandt PRRTHS #6285 cobrandt@eclipse.net ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information on a proactive email security service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:01:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler --part1_1d5.1147e90d.2ca3a667_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the help locating this link. Good thing it did not have teeth otherwise it would have bitten me. 8-)) TKM now has one more "happy" subscriber. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1d5.1147e90d.2ca3a667_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable    Thanks to all for the help locating this=20= link.   Good thing it did not have teeth otherwise it would have b= itten me. 8-)) TKM now has one more "happy" subscriber.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1d5.1147e90d.2ca3a667_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:42:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 04:30 PM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Need help.=A0 I am going around in circles trying to find this site=20 > mentioned recently on this list.=A0 Would someone be so kind as to=20 > direct me. http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:23:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: 3 axle pasdenger trucks From: Bruce Smith On Tuesday, September 23, 2003, at 11:51 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Here is the MONSTER 1.4 M file to help (GEEE, my new G5 loads it OK > on a T1 line ). > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ > PRR_3_axle_trucks.jpg > > Top to bottom: > > Bachman "Prewar" combine 5109 (huh?) > "WHAT THE F&%" was my response on pulling this car out of the > box...this is NOT the 3D-P1/3D7P2 truck. There is a prominent drop > equalizer between each axle and there are no drain holes. This could > be the plain bearing 3D5P3 if you add holes over the axles, although > I'm not sure that the side frames are really right. > > Precision Scale (3D5P2) > This is the next truck after the 3C-P1 and has no bottom > bracing...seems pretty accurate. > > ECW (huh?) > As noted above, prominent drop equalizers mean that this is not the > clained 3D-P1/3D7P2 truck > > Bachman "Post war" Diner 9939 (3D-P1/3D7P2) > Easy to identify - no drop equalizer, drain holes in little round > protruding parts midway between axles. OK, here is a slightly more reasonable sized file. Same order top to bottom http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ PRR_3_axle_trucks_2small.jpg Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:03:56 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3838F.633A6840 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling Folks! I appreciate the great feedback you have given us. We at "The Keystone Modeler" hope we are giving you something useful and entertaining, and something that you can use every day in your modeling efforts. I am greatly appreciative of the continued participation by list members, and your moderators, many members of whom have been extremely helpful in suggesting good things to add, changes to make, and issues you'd like to hear discussed. We continue to solicit your input on subjects you'd like to see discussed and illustrated. I am an early diesel nut and a freight car maven, so if you get sick of that stuff, let me know. We are trying hard to fill you up with information, and hopefully, motivating images, to go along with the text. Let me know what you'd like to see in coming months. I have had some recent, and some repeat suggestions of: PRR FM and Baldwin diesels BLI M1 and T1 reviews (yes, wasn't Bruce's GG1 review great?) Steam detailing Scratchbuilding, painting, weathering X29 boxcars and rebuilds Covered hoppers Covered wagons (F's, FA's, PA's, C-Liners, Eries, etc.) "PRR-izing" your layout Trains, traffic, car mixes, research What do you think? What would YOU like to see? Drop me a line. We'll see what we can do. Regards, Elden and the folks at the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3838F.633A6840 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler
Thanks, PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling Folks!

I appreciate the great feedback you have given = us. We at "The Keystone Modeler" hope we are giving you = something useful and entertaining, and something that you can use every = day in your modeling efforts. I am greatly appreciative of the = continued participation by list members, and your moderators, many = members of whom have been extremely helpful in suggesting good things = to add, changes to make, and issues you'd like to hear = discussed.

We continue to solicit your input on subjects you'd = like to see discussed and illustrated. I am an early diesel nut = and a freight car maven, so if you get sick of that stuff, let me = know. We are trying hard to fill you up with information, and = hopefully, motivating images, to go along with the text.

Let me know what you'd like to see in coming = months. I have had some recent, and some repeat suggestions = of:

PRR FM and Baldwin diesels

BLI M1 and T1 reviews (yes, wasn't Bruce's GG1 review = great?)

Steam detailing

Scratchbuilding, painting, weathering

X29 boxcars and rebuilds

Covered hoppers

Covered wagons (F's, FA's, PA's, C-Liners, Eries, = etc.)

"PRR-izing" your layout

Trains, traffic, car mixes, research

What do you think? What would YOU like to = see? Drop me a line. We'll see what we can do.

Regards,
Elden and the folks at the PRRT&HS Modeling = Committee

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3838F.633A6840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:58:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More LCL From: Jerry Britton LCL-2 is one of the trains I will be modeling. We already discussed that the LCL cars -- "Merchandise Service" quite common among them -- typically went station to station and customers picked up/dropped off shipments at these freight stations. At Harrisburg, there was a huge freight station just east of the passenger station, behind the REA station. But, if you look at the routing of the LCL's, they went through Enola, not Harrisburg. So, there must have been transfer runs. Anyone know? If there were runs, did they likely route west over the Rockville Bridge then east into Enola, or south/west over the CV bridge and west into Enola? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:58:08 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C383A7.B9412FE0 Content-Type: text/plain OK; I know you are tired, but this subject, if we develop it, is useful for all of us in our modeling and layout operation. I've seen Ted Culotta's VERY interesting "signature" car list, and also the thought-provoking research that Richard Hendrickson has done on this same theme. And I know Ben Hom, Jerry Britton, and others, have done a lot of thinking on this subject. But Ted and Richard's work tended to be focused on the late 40's, so there is a definite domination of these lists by single sheathed and double sheathed box cars, and dominated by roads outside our geographic sphere. So, what "signature" cars, from the PRR and other frequently-PRR-interchanged railroads should we have on our layouts, and for periods like the 50's and 60's? Granted, someone has said that there were some wooden boxcars still running around in this time period, but they were getting rare. So, what cars, from what roads, were you likely to see? For my area, there tended to be a lot of cars from the B&O, P&LE, P&WV, B&LE, NYC, RDG, N&W, C&O, WM, Erie/EL, NKP, and WAB, with a still strong representation from CB&Q, ATSF, and others way outside that part of the country. Plus some really regional stuff like UnionRR, Montour, LV, P&S, LT, AC&Y, DT&I, and others thrown in in numbers way over represented statistically on a national sense . Hardly representative of those lists! So what cars are really good for the PRR for the most highly represented roads? And what roads tended to be well represented on the PRR despite their relative obscurity elsewhere? Your thoughts are ALWAYS of interest! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C383A7.B9412FE0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler

=

=
OK;

I know you are tired, but this = subject, if we develop it, is useful for all of us in our modeling and layout = operation.

=
I've seen Ted Culotta's VERY interesting "signature" car list, and also the thought-provoking research that Richard Hendrickson has done on this same theme. And I know Ben Hom, = Jerry Britton, and others, have done a lot of thinking on this = subject. But Ted and Richard's work = tended to be focused on the late 40's, so there is a definite domination of these lists by single sheathed and double sheathed box cars, and = dominated by roads outside our geographic sphere.

=
So, what "signature" cars, from the PRR and other frequently-PRR-interchanged railroads should we = have on our layouts, and for periods like the 50's and 60's? Granted, someone has said that = there were some wooden boxcars still running around in this time period, but = they were getting rare. So, = what cars, from what roads, were you likely to see?

=
For my area, there tended to be a = lot of cars from the B&O, P&LE, P&WV, B&LE, NYC, RDG, N&W, C&O, WM, Erie/EL, NKP, and WAB, with a still strong representation = from CB&Q, ATSF, and others way outside that part of the country. Plus some really regional = stuff like UnionRR, Montour, = LV, P&S, LT, AC&Y, DT&I, and others thrown in in numbers way over represented statistically on a national sense . Hardly = representative of those lists!

=
So what cars are really good for = the PRR for the most highly represented roads? And what roads tended to be well represented on the PRR despite their relative obscurity = elsewhere?

=
Your thoughts are ALWAYS of = interest!

=
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C383A7.B9412FE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:31:19 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: [PRR] Keystone a Great Job !!!!!!! I can't put it down , the latest issue of the Keystone . Now if the staff could come up with special editions like " The Pennsy in the Steel City " or "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle " , it would make me happy . Great J-O-B !!!!. Vince Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone a Great Job !!!!!!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:24:17 -0400 Vince, I'll say it because I don't know if Chuck is on list. You said, "Now if the staff could come up with special editions like " The Pennsy in the Steel City " or "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle " , it would make me happy ." I don't wish to be a nag on this kind of thing, but if thats what you want, you could write it. The Keystone doesn't have staff writers to write requested articles. If you look around the societies site thier are Author "style guides" for writing an article for the Keystone. This part has been excerpted from the end it, CONTENT OF THE KEYSTONE I'd like to cover one associated issue while I've your attention. I often receive letters requesting articles on a specific subject or complaining that we're presenting too much of this or not enough of that. We do not have staff writers to whom I can give assignments. Therefore, although I can aim at publishing issues with varied content, The Keystone's content is dependent upon what you, our authors, are interested in writing about. Unfortunately, in recent years, several of our mainstay authors have had priorities change and are no longer submitting articles to us; this has limited our ability to diversify content. In the long run, our younger members will need to pick up where some of these folks have left off. Now's as good a time as ever. This is your quarterly. Please contribute what you can. We need and appreciate your efforts. Heres my two cents towards an ongoing mis-conception. Best Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:58:01 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] 3C-P1 truck Hello, all, Bruce, thanks for posting the photo of the various available trucks. My particular interest is in the 3-axle truck I'm working from memory but I think it's the 3C-P1) with the horizontal bottom bracing and the two prominant outside bolsters. Does anyone make such a truck? The 2-axle PRR truck with one outside bolster, such as you see under the P70, is easily had in HO but what of the other? BTW it appears that the PSC truck comes the closest to the 3C-P1. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Interesting research Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:15:55 +0000 This was posted by Richard Wallis on the Pennsy west group on Yahoo buit his findings could help someone else doing research into other areas of the PRR. Fellow lister Lin Bongaardt and I have lately been carrying on an email blizzard concerning construction track notations in old St. Louis Division Employee timetables, the results of which raise some interesting considerations (I think) worth sharing. The original question which launched this impromptu research and puzzling out was the mention in a 1939 ETT of temporary "construction tracks" in service 1.5 and 4.4 miles west of Brazil, Indiana. These were short (20-30 cars), and otherwise unidentified. The problem, of course, is that neither one of us could find any record of a railroad project which might have required this type of installation. We were further mystified by construction track entries in a 1941 ETT at Plainfield, Indiana and Highland, Illinois--but in this case we were aided by the fact that they were actually credited to the Vogel Construction Company (Plainfield) and the Moore Brothers Construction Company (Highland). The answer was: they had to be non-railroad in usage; and indeed, after a few days of puzzling and inquiry, we were able to pretty well pin down the solution. In the case of Plainfield, Vogel Construction was the contractor widening parallel US40 that summer between Bridgeport and Plainfield. Further inquiry yielded the information that US40 was being widened--and likely reconstructed--between Brazil and Seelyville in 1939. (Curiously, there is the possibility, unconfirmed, that--like the railroad in 1908--US40 was being provided with an entirely new right-of-way on this segment, leaving the old road renamed as Indiana 340.) And we are now assuming that the Highland, Illinois project in 1941 was also US40-related. What hampered me in the beginning was the assumption that any such construction track would have automatically been associated with railroad needs. I was wrong. This was before the age of mechanized, off-rail maintenance equipment, and most major railroad construction and reconstruction projects were carried on with rail-borne machinery. The fact suggested by this little historical foray is that much major highway construction was equally dependent on, or at least greatly aided by rail-borne or rail-supplied machinery. In the case of US40 in the prewar period, my guess is that concrete was the chosen pavement type, and that there were mixing installations supplied by rail at these construction track locations. If anyone can further corroborate the aforementioned cases, or add additional incidences of non-railroad temporary construction track utilization, I would be greatly interested. And we would all be greatly enlightened by the observations and advice of the seasoned railroaders among us. Thanks. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:51:59 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Autumn 2003 "Keystone" Charles Blardone, Jr. wrote: >Ah yes, 6610 in John Crosby's article... Would you believe that >"Trains" published the wrong number when the article first appeared and >we didn't catch the (obvious) error when we digitized the text? It's >true. By process of elimination, we figure 6110 is correct; I've >already penned a correction for our winter issue. > Chuck and all: FWIW, my copy of March 1975 TRAINS, p. 42, shows 6110. What may have happened, however, is this: The black type was superimposed on the blue sky of the Fogg painting rather than on normal white paper stock. A smaller darker fleck of blue paint appears between the two middle numbers of the typeset road number, which an OCR digital scanner may have interpreted as being the lower portion of a 6 and read it that way instead of as a 1. Just a thought. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:56:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Off-line hoppers on the Mt Carmel Ore Train From: John Sheets What were the common off-line hoppers used on this train to the LV in the 1950's? TIA JOhn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:35:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting research From: Bruce Smith On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 11:15 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > If anyone can further corroborate the aforementioned cases, or add > additional incidences of non-railroad temporary construction track > utilization, I would be greatly interested. And we would all be > greatly > enlightened by the observations and advice of the seasoned railroaders > among us. Probably the biggest non-rail construction project EVER in the history of US Railroading was the construction of the "Big Inch" and "Little Inch" pipelines during early WWII (1942-43). The numbers are staggering, involving hundreds of solid 100 car trains of of pipe. For a history of the inch pipelines, see: http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/BB/dob8.html Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:38:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 3C-P1 truck From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-16-391394018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 10:58 AM, gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: > Bruce, thanks for posting the photo of the various available trucks. > My > particular interest is in the 3-axle truck I'm working from memory but > I think > it's the 3C-P1) with the horizontal bottom bracing and the two > prominant > outside bolsters. Does anyone make such a truck? The 2-axle PRR > truck with > one outside bolster, such as you see under the P70, is easily had in > HO but > what of the other? BTW it appears that the PSC truck comes the > closest to the > 3C-P1. We we're trying to figure out if PSC ever made a 3C-P1. The PSC truck I showed looks to be the 3D5P2, since it does not have the lower bracing of a 3P-C1. A 3C-P1 would certainly be the most appropriate truck on the M70B (that originally started this thread) up through WWII Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-16-391394018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 10:58 AM, gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: Bruce, thanks for posting the photo of the various available trucks. My particular interest is in the 3-axle truck I'm working from memory but I think it's the 3C-P1) with the horizontal bottom bracing and the two prominant outside bolsters. Does anyone make such a truck? The 2-axle PRR truck with one outside bolster, such as you see under the P70, is easily had in HO but what of the other? BTW it appears that the PSC truck comes the closest to the 3C-P1. We we're trying to figure out if PSC ever made a 3C-P1. The PSC truck I showed looks to be the 3D5P2, since it does not have the lower bracing of a 3P-C1. A 3C-P1 would certainly be the most appropriate truck on the M70B (that originally started this thread) up through WWII Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-16-391394018-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:21:47 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] 3C-P1 Another approach Hi, everyone, I've been fooling around with kitbashing a 3C-P1 and have two approaches. One is to take an Athearn 3-axle truck and modify it with styrene strips and some simple resins castings I made. I looks reasonably good but the modification is fussy work. The other approach is to kitbash some ECW two-axle truck sideframes. I've got the parts but haven't tried it yet - but the 2-axle trucks they make that could go under an mP54 have some of the right shapes for the leaf springs and the outside bolster such that I hope to take two of these sideframes, cut them up and re-assemble them into a 3-axle form and then use this as a master to make copies with resin. There has to be a simpler way!! The 3C-P1 truck was common up into the 1950's and has come for me to have a very "Pennsy" look and feel for me. Since I model the PRR in 1920, they are eally essential to get the right look for my headend cars. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting research --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > This was posted by Richard Wallis on the Pennsy west group on Yahoo > If anyone can further corroborate the aforementioned cases, or add > additional incidences of non-railroad temporary construction track > utilization, I would be greatly interested. There is an old, still active, hydroelectric dam on the Clarion River a few miles below Clarion, in northwestern PA. On a visit there some 30 years ago I saw what I believed to be the remains of a railroad grade leading to the dam from somewhere downstream. More recently I was able to trace the grade on aerial photos at Terraserver. I had hoped to see it go all the way to the Allegheny where it would have connected to the PRR but alas, it connected to the NYC's JF&C line. The junction must have been something to behold as the line emrged from a tunnel, crossed the river on a three span deck truss and entered another tunnel. The switch to the construction track must have almost been in the tunnel portal. The original party, Clarion River Power Company, was chartered June 7, 1912 but did not actually do anything until 1922 and by then they may have sold out to a bigger power company. GPU owns the dam now. Apparently the grades I saw were used both to bring in materials for the dam and the turbines and alternators for the power house, as the grade divides into two near the dam, one running down toward the power house, the other staying farther up on the side of the gorge. There would have been something on the order of 1 1/2 miles of track. A photo is available at: www.familyoldphotos.com/pa/2b/building_the_piney_dam_in_clario.htm This is looking upstream. The grade I'm fussing about would have been behind the photographer and across the river to his right. There are what appear to be standard gauge tracks visibile in the photo. Other materials, including photos of the bridge are available online, search for "piney dam" at www.google.com, but as the PRR content is nil, I'd best quit now. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Is the OK or fantasy? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:31:47 +0000 InterMountain offers a Pennsylvania RR United States Railroad Administration single-sheathed boxcar (re-release). InterMountain Railway Co., P.O. Box 839, Longmont, CO 80502; www.intermountain-railway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:47:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Is the OK or fantasy? From: Jerry Britton On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 03:31 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > InterMountain offers a Pennsylvania RR United States Railroad > Administration > single-sheathed boxcar (re-release). InterMountain Railway Co., P.O. > Box 839, > Longmont, CO 80502; www.intermountain-railway.com As you indicated, it is a re-release. It is the ready-to-run version of the Tichy model that has been available for some time. This is the second run of this car by IM. Can't comment on the accuracy, but this particular car did not sell well through MS. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Is the OK or fantasy? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:02:22 -0500 Norm, The car you are talking about is the Tichy USRA box car that Intermountain sells assembled and painted. Basically, the car is a PRR X26. I do recall that there were some shortcomings with the car, possibly the wrong roof. I'd have to check the archives to be sure. However, Westerfield makes several kits for the X26, with some different door and roof variations. And the price of the accurate Westerfield car is comparable to the Intermountain RTR stuff. And finally, I do not know if the car comes assembled with KC or AB brakes. I remember that the initial run of Intermountain/Tichy assembled composite gon came with KC brakes. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Is the OK or fantasy? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:09:15 +0000 ndbprr@att.net asked: Is this OK or fantasy? InterMountain offers a Pennsylvania RR United States Railroad Administration single-sheathed boxcar (re-release). http://www.intermountain-railway.com Yes, but only valid from 1930 through about the mid-1940s. These cars are assembled Tichy kits which model Class X26, as built, repainted from NK4 to CK in the early-1930s. Starting in 1934, Pennsy began minor rebuilding of Class X26 cars, replacing the original roof with Hutchins Roofs. Most cars received Youngstown doors, some received Youngstown and Creco doors made from Class X28 auxiliary ("1/2") doors welded together to make 6 ft wide doors (salvaged during the conversion of Class X28 to X28A), and some retained the original wood doors with steel patching. Additionally, many cars received truss reinforcements at the top and bottom of the trusses, but these appeared to be done on an "as needed" basis. Some cars did escape rebuilding with Hutchins roofs, and ran into the mid-1940s until the X26C rebuilding began (1945-49). Westerfield 3355-3357 correctly model the Class X26 cars with Hutchins roofs. This kit now has a one-piece body casting. http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/ If you have "Westerfear," Mont Switzer kitbashed a Hutchins Roof rebuild in "X26 USRA Boxcar Rebuild Using a Tichy Kit," Mainline Modeler, December 2000, page 62. The Hutchins roof comes from an Accurail SS boxcar. (It would be easier to build the Westerfield kit as it already has a correct one- piece body casting, saving you the work of cutting up two car bodies and reassembling them.) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Is the OK or fantasy? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:13:04 +0000 Andy Cich wrote: I do not know if the car comes assembled with KC or AB brakes. KC brakes, which are correct for the car as modeled. The Hutchins roof rebuilds received AB brakes as part of the work. ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:56:17 -0500 Subject: RE: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-20-403231801 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 03:58 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > I've seen Ted Culotta's VERY interesting "signature" car list, and =20 > also the thought-provoking research that Richard Hendrickson has done =20= > on this same theme.=A0And I know Ben Hom,Jerry Britton, and others, = have =20 > done a lot of thinking on this subject.=A0But Ted and Richard's work =20= > tended to be focused on the late 40's, so there is a definite =20 > domination of these lists by single sheathed and double sheathed box =20= > cars, and dominated by roads outside our geographic sphere. > So what cars are really good for the PRR for the most highly =20 > represented roads? And what roads tended to be well represented on the = =20 > PRR despite their relative obscurity elsewhere? Whew, tall order here! Let me describe what I am doing, based on =20 perhaps 20 different email conversations, especially on the Yehaw Steam =20= Era Freight Car group, where Ted, and several other "gurus" of traffic =20= hang out. I will try to relate this to the proposed 500 freight car =20 fleet for my June 1944 layout. 1) Determine the ratio of "home" to "foreign cars. On the PRR, this =20= was often around 50%. The snag is that this only covers the total. =20 Hoppers were more likely 60-70%, gons around 50-60% and house cars may =20= have been as low as 25-35%. On my layout, look for 250 PRR freight =20 cars. 2) PRR car distributions. I have the top 30 classes from 1943, 1945 =20= and 1955 posted at =20 http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html. =20 This is from a table in the Keystone Volume 7, Number 3, September =20 1974, copyright PRRT&HS, 1974. Almost every car is available in HO and =20= I am well on my way to having the kits to build the PRR fleet. Note =20 that you will need to decide the proportion of CRECO doors or =20 Dreadnaught ends in your x29 subfleet, for example... 3) In general, the remainder of the car pool (box & flat) should =20 consist of cars derived from the national pools according to their =20 percentages. This data can be obtained by adding up the totals in the =20= ORER for your modeling year(s), or if you are lucky, by searching the =20= archives of the Steam era group and finding something close I have =20= done this for reefers and flat cars and they are in the STMFC and =20 PRR-talk archives. Note that hoppers have a more regionalized =20 distribution, gons a modified regional distribution, and reefers and =20 tank cars are a world unto themselves. For boxcars I use the =20 following, provided by Tim Gilbert on the STMFC group: > Region 1943 1946 1949 1952 1955 > Total 100% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% > New England 2.5 2.0 2.3 2.3 = 2.3 > Great Lakes 18.1 18.5 18.3 = 18.7 17.6 > Central East 18.1 18.3 16.4 = 16.2 16.4 > Pocahontas 3.1 3.2 4.3 = 4.3 4.5 > Southern 14,6 14.7 14.9 = 14.2 13.6 > Northwest 16.6 16.7 16.4 = 15.4 15.3 > Central West 19.3 18.9 18.6 = 19.9 20.9 > Southwest 7.6 7.9 8.5 = 8.5 8.5=09 4) Now look at the percentages within each region owned by the major =20= railroads. Assign Ted's list of signature cars, and investigate which =20= car classes are appropriate for each road. I will need around 100 =20 foreign box cars. The cars listed below with an asterix are from Ted's =20= list. The remainder are either cars I have identified as being the =20 major car, or that I have in my collection. In some cases, such as the =20= UP cars, I've given you the fleet totals. New England 2.5% 1 New Haven - 36=92 rebuilt (F&C) 1 B&M - ARA SS (F&C) *? 1 MEC Great Lakes 18.1% 9 NYC (not PLE) 2 x USRA Steel * 50=92 single door (P2K) 2 Erie 1937 AAR, (Sun) * 50=92 single door (P2K) 2 Wabash SS Autocar (Sunshine) * 1 GTW 1 NKP 1 DL&W - 1937 AAR (IMWX)* Central East 18.1% (REMOVED PRR) 5 B&O M53 Wagon top (West Shore) * 2 x M26 (X29 clone) * 1 RDG 1 CNJ 1 Monon 1 C&EI Pocahontas 3.1% 3 C&O USRA SS (Westerfield 3303) 1 N&W Southern 14.6% 4 Southern 1937 AAR (RC) * DS Autocar (Sunshine) * 36=92 truss rod (Westerfield) * 3Illinois Central 2 L&N 2 ACL 2 SAL B-3/4/5 ARA SS (F&C?)* AF-1 Round roof (Sun) Northwest 16.6% 4 Milwaukee 1-2 SS boxcar (Sunshine) * Rib side (Sunshine) * 3 GN DS boxcar (Sunshine) * 3 CN&W SS =93short=94 (Sunshine) * 3 NP DS boxcar (Sunshine) * 1Soo Central West 19.3% 5 AT&SF BX-11,12,13 SS (Westerfield) * 4 SP Cotton Belt DS (Sunshine) * B-50-13/14 (Sunshine) * B-50-15/16 (Sunshine) * 4 UP B-50-17 (Sunshine) (2282) B-50-19/21/23 (RC?) (3065) B-50-24/27 (Trix) (3357) B-50-32/33 (Sunshine) (2749) B-50-34/35 (PS-0, NEB&W) (50) 3 CB&Q 2 Rock Island Southwest 7.6% 3 Mo Pac Howe truss SS (Sunshine) * 2 SL&SF SS boxcar (Sunshine) * 1 TN&O 5) You will note that there are some "holes" left...the cars above do =20= not add to 100. This gives you the flexibility to add in some unusual =20= or "rare" cars, at the right mix. Some others from Ted's list are: CP minibox (F&C) * LV =93wrong way=94 (Sunshine/F&C) * 6) Now, this isn't gonna do you a heck of a lot of good, if all you =20 are running is coal trains so the cars have to fit the traffic =20 pattern. For my layout, that is: Train type number of trains cars/train subtotal = total Tank car 2 30 = 60 UTLX SHPX other Reefer 1 30 = 30 PFE 6=09 SFRD 2 FGE 12 WFEX 6=09 BREX 2 other 2 Stock 1 30 = 30 PRR K7a 8 PRR K8 7 other 15 Coal 4 30 = 120 PRR 78 Merchandise 12 27=09 box 15 = 180 PRR 72=09 other 108=09 gon 12 = 120=09 PRR 64=09 other 56=09 flat 2 = 24=09 Hope this helps! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-20-403231801 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=WINDOWS-1252 On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 03:58 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: = Arial0000,0000,807FI've seen Ted Culotta's VERY interesting "signature" car list, and also the thought-provoking research that Richard Hendrickson has done on this same theme.=A0And I know Ben Hom,Jerry Britton, and others, have done a lot of thinking on this subject.=A0But Ted and Richard's work tended to be focused on the late 40's, so there is a definite domination of these lists by single sheathed and double sheathed box cars, and dominated by roads outside our geographic = sphere. < = Arial0000,0000,807FSo what cars are really good for the PRR for the most highly represented roads? And what roads tended to be well represented on the PRR despite their relative obscurity elsewhere? Whew, tall order here! Let me describe what I am doing, based on perhaps 20 different email conversations, especially on the Yehaw Steam Era Freight Car group, where Ted, and several other "gurus" of traffic hang out. I will try to relate this to the proposed 500 freight car fleet for my June 1944 layout. 1) Determine the ratio of "home" to "foreign cars. On the PRR, this was often around 50%. The snag is that this only covers the total.=20 Hoppers were more likely 60-70%, gons around 50-60% and house cars may have been as low as 25-35%. On my layout, look for 250 PRR freight cars. 2) PRR car distributions. I have the top 30 classes from 1943, 1945 and 1955 posted at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html.=20 This is from a table in the Keystone Volume 7, Number 3, September 1974, copyright PRRT&HS, 1974. Almost every car is available in HO and I am well on my way to having the kits to build the PRR fleet.=20 Note that you will need to decide the proportion of CRECO doors or Dreadnaught ends in your x29 subfleet, for example... 3) In general, the remainder of the car pool (box & flat) should consist of cars derived from the national pools according to their percentages. This data can be obtained by adding up the totals in the ORER for your modeling year(s), or if you are lucky, by searching the archives of the Steam era group and finding something close < I have done this for reefers and flat cars and they are in the STMFC and=20= PRR-talk archives. Note that hoppers have a more regionalized distribution, gons a modified regional distribution, and reefers and tank cars are a world unto themselves. For boxcars I use the following, provided by Tim Gilbert on the STMFC group: Region 1943 1946 1949 1952 1955 Total 100% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% New England 2.5 2.0 2.3 2.3 = 2.3 Great Lakes 18.1 18.5 18.3 = 18.7 17.6 Central East 18.1 18.3 16.4 = 16.2 16.4 Pocahontas 3.1 3.2 4.3 = 4.3 4.5 Southern 14,6 14.7 14.9 = 14.2 13.6 Northwest 16.6 16.7 16.4 = 15.4 15.3 Central West 19.3 18.9 18.6 = 19.9 20.9 Southwest 7.6 7.9 8.5 = 8.5 8.5=09 4) Now look at the percentages within each region owned by the major railroads. Assign Ted's list of signature cars, and investigate which car classes are appropriate for each road. I will need around 100 foreign box cars. The cars listed below with an asterix are from Ted's list. The remainder are either cars I have identified as being the major car, or that I have in my collection. In some cases, such as the UP cars, I've given you the fleet totals. 0000,0000,0000 New England 2.5% 1 New Haven - 36=92 rebuilt (F&C) 1 B&M - ARA SS (F&C) *? 1 MEC Great Lakes 18.1% 9 NYC (not PLE) 2 x USRA Steel * 50=92 single door (P2K) 2 Erie 1937 AAR, (Sun) * 50=92 single door (P2K) 2 Wabash SS Autocar (Sunshine) * 1 GTW 1 NKP 1 DL&W - 1937 AAR (IMWX)* Central East 18.1% (REMOVED PRR) 5 B&O M53 Wagon top (West Shore) *=20 2 x M26 (X29 clone) * 1 RDG 1 CNJ 1 Monon 1 C&EI Pocahontas 3.1% 3 C&O USRA SS (Westerfield 3303) 1 N&W Southern 14.6% 4 Southern 1937 AAR (RC) * DS Autocar (Sunshine) *=20 36=92 truss rod (Westerfield) * 3Illinois Central 2 L&N 2 ACL 2 SAL B-3/4/5 ARA SS (F&C?)* AF-1 Round roof (Sun)=20 Northwest 16.6% 4 Milwaukee 1-2 SS boxcar (Sunshine) * Rib side (Sunshine) * 3 GN DS boxcar (Sunshine) * 3 CN&W SS =93short=94 (Sunshine) * 3 NP DS boxcar (Sunshine) * 1Soo Central West 19.3% 5 AT&SF BX-11,12,13 SS (Westerfield) * 4 SP Cotton Belt DS (Sunshine) * B-50-13/14 (Sunshine) * B-50-15/16 (Sunshine) * 4 UP B-50-17 (Sunshine) (2282) B-50-19/21/23 (RC?) (3065) B-50-24/27 (Trix) (3357) B-50-32/33 (Sunshine) (2749) B-50-34/35 (PS-0, NEB&W) (50) 3 CB&Q 2 Rock Island Southwest 7.6% 3 Mo Pac Howe truss SS (Sunshine) * 2 SL&SF SS boxcar (Sunshine) * 1 TN&O 5) You will note that there are some "holes" left...the cars above do not add to 100. This gives you the flexibility to add in some unusual or "rare" cars, at the right mix. Some others from Ted's list are: CP minibox (F&C) * LV =93wrong way=94 (Sunshine/F&C) * 6) Now, this isn't gonna do you a heck of a lot of good, if all you are running is coal trains < so the cars have to fit the traffic pattern. For my layout, that is: Train type0000,0000,0000 number of trains0000,0000,0000 cars/train=09 subtotal total TimesTank car 2 = 30 60 UTLX SHPX other Reefer 1 30 = 30 PFE 6=09 SFRD 2 FGE 12 WFEX 6=09 BREX 2 other 2 Stock 1 30 = 30 PRR K7a 8 PRR K8 7 other 15 Coal 4 30 = 120 PRR 78 Merchandise 12 27=09 box 15 = 180 PRR 72=09 other 108=09 gon 12 = 120=09 PRR 64=09 other 56=09 flat 2 = 24 = Chicago0000,0000,000= 0 0000,0000,0000Hope this helps! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-20-403231801-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:42:30 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] New/old Book --=====================_121172596==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This past week I received a book put out by the Pennsylvania Railroad. The title is "The Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Region, Chicago Division, Symbol System of Car Placement. Revised January 1, 1952. It is a fascinating book with a breakdown of all industries serviced by the Pennsy in the Chicago area by zone and track number. What I found really interesting is a listing of all transfer runs from each yard in the Chicago Division. Once I get a chance I will be inputting the information onto the web site. Dayna & Randy Williamson http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htmhttp://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm --=====================_121172596==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This past week I received a book put out by the Pennsylvania Railroad. The title is "The Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Region, Chicago Division, Symbol System of Car Placement. Revised January 1, 1952. It is a fascinating book with a breakdown of all industries serviced by the Pennsy in the Chicago area by zone and track number. What I found really interesting is a listing of all transfer runs from each yard in the Chicago Division. Once I get a chance I will be inputting the information onto the web site.

Dayna & Randy Williamson
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htmhttp://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm --=====================_121172596==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:49:25 -0500 Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-22-406419145 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 04:14 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Well I diverge on one point. No way in Hell I am having any cars that > say > NYC on them. Never have, never will. That portion of the correctness > will > be totaly disregarded. End dicussion. :-) Norm Bell Hey, its your fantasy! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-22-406419145 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 04:14 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: Well I diverge on one point. No way in Hell I am having any cars that say NYC on them. Never have, never will. That portion of the correctness will be totaly disregarded. End dicussion. :-) Norm Bell Hey, its your fantasy! < Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-22-406419145-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 3C-P1 truck Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:04:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C38450.43E1FDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See www.fleetofmodernism.com/3cp1.jpg for a picture of the Precision = Scale 3C-P1 truck. I finally got around to my storage locker and dug it = out of my BCW kit for the M70.=20 Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Smith=20 We we're trying to figure out if PSC ever made a 3C-P1. The PSC truck = I showed looks to be the 3D5P2, since it does not have the lower bracing = of a 3P-C1. A 3C-P1 would certainly be the most appropriate truck on the = M70B (that originally started this thread) up through WWII ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C38450.43E1FDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
See www.fleetofmodernism.co= m/3cp1.jpg=20 for a picture of the Precision Scale 3C-P1 truck. I finally got = around to=20 my storage locker and dug it out of my BCW kit for the = M70.

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bruce=20 Smith We we're trying to figure out if PSC ever made a = 3C-P1. The=20 PSC truck I showed looks to be the 3D5P2, since it does not have the = lower=20 bracing of a 3P-C1. A 3C-P1 would certainly be the most appropriate = truck on=20 the M70B (that originally started this thread) up through=20 WWII
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C38450.43E1FDC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:51:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Autumn 2003 "Keystone" Charles Blardone, Jr. wrote: >Ah yes, 6610 in John Crosby's article... Would you believe that >"Trains" published the wrong number when the article first appeared and >we didn't catch the (obvious) error when we digitized the text? It's >true. By process of elimination, we figure 6110 is correct; I've >already penned a correction for our winter issue. > Chuck and all: FWIW, my copy of March 1975 TRAINS, p. 42, shows 6110. What may have happened, however, is this: The black type was superimposed on the blue sky of the Fogg painting rather than on normal white paper stock. A smaller darker fleck of blue paint appears between the two middle numbers of the typeset road number, which an OCR digital scanner may have interpreted as being the lower portion of a 6 and read it that way instead of as a 1. Just a thought. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:37:43 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone a Great Job !!!!!!! OK John I guess I did it again!!! I'm sorry , but I seem to get in trouble every time I write in ! I'm not complaining this time , only asking to have some really good work repeated on a new subject . John I know as much about publishing as I do about " The Pennsy" or any other railroad . I Didn't know there wasn't a staff . And I certainly didn't mean to imply that the few people who are there , and doing a terrific job , by the way , are slacking in any way . I just through that out there , because I know I'm not alone in wanting booklets like I described . As for me writing or researching it on my own , I'm afraid I wouldn't have the inclination or ability . I lived through the the 40's 50's and 60's when all of the exciting changes were happening on the Pennsy and other Railroads . I was oblivious to it all . I remember speeding out Liberty Ave in a car load of guys , going to Oakland looking for girls . We would turn across the 28th street bridge, at the big Old Pennsy round house , cross over the mass of tracks , loaded with steam engines and never even look down . If only I had taken one lousy roll of pictures . Years later on many a trip out the Parkway West I'd pass a wrecking yard at Montour Run , filled with Steam Engines waiting to be cut up , never even stopped to see if I could buy a whistle ! Life is full of missed opportunities . However John I will take your advise and check out the Author "style guides". No offense taken of your remarks to get off my lazy caboose . Vince Miller John Frantz wrote: > Vince, > > I'll say it because I don't know if Chuck is on list. > > You said, "Now if the staff could come up with special > editions like " The Pennsy in the Steel City " or "The > Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle " , it would make > me happy ." > I don't wish to be a nag on this kind of thing, but if > thats what you want, you could write it. The Keystone > doesn't have staff writers to write requested articles. > > If you look around the societies site thier are Author > "style guides" for writing an article for the Keystone. > > This part has been excerpted from the end it, > > CONTENT OF THE KEYSTONE > I'd like to cover one associated issue while I've your > attention. I often receive letters requesting articles on > a specific subject or complaining that we're presenting > too much of this or not enough of that. We do not have > staff writers to whom I can give assignments. Therefore, > although I can aim at publishing issues with varied > content, The Keystone's content is dependent upon what > you, our authors, are interested in writing about. > Unfortunately, in recent years, several of our mainstay > authors have had priorities change and are no longer > submitting articles to us; this has limited our ability to > diversify content. In the long run, our younger members > will need to pick up where some of these folks have left > off. Now's as good a time as ever. This is your > quarterly. Please contribute what you can. We need and > appreciate your efforts. > > Heres my two cents towards an ongoing mis-conception. > > Best Regards, > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:24:30 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Thanks for the great feedback for The --------------070000050009010206040108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? Ken Meyer Bel Air, MD ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Thanks, PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling Folks! > > I appreciate the great feedback you have given us. We at "The Keystone > Modeler" hope we are giving you something useful and entertaining, and > something that you can use every day in your modeling efforts. I am > greatly > appreciative of the continued participation by list members, and your > moderators, many members of whom have been extremely helpful in suggesting > good things to add, changes to make, and issues you'd like to hear > discussed. > > We continue to solicit your input on subjects you'd like to see discussed > and illustrated. I am an early diesel nut and a freight car maven, so if > you get sick of that stuff, let me know. We are trying hard to fill > you up > with information, and hopefully, motivating images, to go along with the > text. > > Let me know what you'd like to see in coming months. I have had some > recent, and some repeat suggestions of: > > PRR FM and Baldwin diesels > > BLI M1 and T1 reviews (yes, wasn't Bruce's GG1 review great?) > > Steam detailing > > Scratchbuilding, painting, weathering > > X29 boxcars and rebuilds > > Covered hoppers > > Covered wagons (F's, FA's, PA's, C-Liners, Eries, etc.) > > "PRR-izing" your layout > > Trains, traffic, car mixes, research > > > What do you think? What would YOU like to see? Drop me a line. > We'll see > what we can do. > > Regards, > Elden and the folks at the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > click here > > > > > Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better > reproduce the PRR in miniature ! > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . --------------070000050009010206040108 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------080002020007030109090008" --------------080002020007030109090008 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available?
Ken Meyer
Bel Air, MD

ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

Thanks, PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling Folks! I appreciate the great feedback you have given us. We at "The Keystone Modeler" hope we are giving you something useful and entertaining, and something that you can use every day in your modeling efforts. I am greatly appreciative of the continued participation by list members, and your moderators, many members of whom have been extremely helpful in suggesting good things to add, changes to make, and issues you'd like to hear discussed. We continue to solicit your input on subjects you'd like to see discussed and illustrated. I am an early diesel nut and a freight car maven, so if you get sick of that stuff, let me know. We are trying hard to fill you up with information, and hopefully, motivating images, to go along with the text. Let me know what you'd like to see in coming months. I have had some recent, and some repeat suggestions of: PRR FM and Baldwin diesels BLI M1 and T1 reviews (yes, wasn't Bruce's GG1 review great?) Steam detailing Scratchbuilding, painting, weathering X29 boxcars and rebuilds Covered hoppers Covered wagons (F's, FA's, PA's, C-Liners, Eries, etc.) "PRR-izing" your layout Trains, traffic, car mixes, research What do you think? What would YOU like to see? Drop me a line. We'll see what we can do. Regards, Elden and the folks at the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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--------------080002020007030109090008-- --------------070000050009010206040108-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:51:59 -0500 -----Original Message----- Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? Ken Meyer Bel Air, MD Ken, Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, dated 6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:38:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Non-railroad construction tracks Greetings to all: PRR spotted many H30-class covered hoppers at a siding off the Cumberland Valley branch near Chambersburg to aid in the construction of the eastern portion of the original Pennsylvania Turnpike (Carlisle-Irwin, 160 miles, opened October 1, 1940). Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Non-railroad construction tracks Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:47:44 -0400 After the E&P maintrack was relocated east to higher ground north of Sharpsville, PA for the Shenango dam ca. early 1960's they used to old alignment as a siding to deliver construction materials to the job site. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:47:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Re: Non-railroad construction tracks After the E&P maintrack was relocated east to higher ground north of Sharpsville, PA for the Shenango dam ca. early 1960's they used to old alignment as a siding to deliver construction materials to the job site. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR Pre-1953 MOW Colors Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:17:56 -0400 List Guys, I'm in the process of modeling some MOW equipment of the PRR. The piece i'm currently working on is a snow plow. Does anybody know if the plows painted in the pre-1953 grey scheme had black roofs in addition to the black blades and black plow? I'm using the picture in PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 as my guide. Any help would be appreciated. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:15:44 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great Andy, Do you have access on Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940-50" in color book? See page 63 lower right. This style was used through the system (I believe). They also appear on page 170 lower left. Obviously, not the "Corridor". Thanks, Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS Modeling Baltimore in the mid-40s Andy Cich wrote: >-----Original Message----- >Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you >see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? >Ken Meyer >Bel Air, MD > > > >Ken, > >Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere >where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? > >I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & >Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, dated >6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them >to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. > > >Andy Cich > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:38:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Non-railroad construction tracks Greetings to all: PRR spotted many H30-class covered hoppers at a siding off the Cumberland Valley branch near Chambersburg to aid in the construction of the eastern portion of the original Pennsylvania Turnpike (Carlisle-Irwin, 160 miles, opened October 1, 1940). Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:31:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0546_01C384EA.D6C8BF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy, Ken and the List: Alexander Scale Models has a Union Switch and Signal machine in HO = scale. This machine, Walthers #120-3107, is static and made out of white = metal. It is prototypical for a US&S machine that was non-pneumatic. = However, it could be used as a base for modeling a pneumatic machine. = Alexander has several other wayside relay and battery boxes that may = have been on the Pennsy. Part No. 3108 is a Switch Circuit Controller = and may be prototypical for the Pennsy if it is US&S. The Pennsy was = almost exclusively US&S while the NYC was a GR&S railroad. I hope that this helps. Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ken Meyer=20 To: Andy Cich=20 Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great = feedback for The Keystone Modeler Andy, Do you have access on Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940-50" = in=20 color book? See page 63 lower right. This style was used through the=20 system (I believe). They also appear on page 170 lower left. = Obviously,=20 not the "Corridor". Thanks, Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS Modeling Baltimore in the mid-40s Andy Cich wrote: >-----Original Message----- >Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The = type you >see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? >Ken Meyer >Bel Air, MD > > > >Ken, > >Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or = elsewhere >where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? > >I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & >Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch = Machines, dated >6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post = them >to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. > > >Andy Cich > > = >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > =20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0546_01C384EA.D6C8BF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andy, Ken and the List:

Alexander Scale Models has a Union Switch and Signal machine in HO = scale.=20 This machine, Walthers #120-3107, is static and made out of white metal. = It is=20 prototypical for a US&S machine that was non-pneumatic. However, it = could be=20 used as a base for modeling a pneumatic machine. Alexander has several = other=20 wayside relay and battery boxes that may have been on the Pennsy. = Part No.=20 3108 is a Switch Circuit Controller and may be prototypical for the = Pennsy if it=20 is US&S. The Pennsy was almost exclusively US&S while the NYC = was a=20 GR&S railroad.

I hope that this helps.

Ted Andrews

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken Meyer

To: Andy Cich

Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com= ;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Saturday, September 27, = 2003 10:15=20 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Switch = Machines --=20 was Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler

Andy,
Do you have access on Don Ball's "The = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad 1940-50" in
color book? See page 63 lower right. This = style was=20 used through the
system (I believe). They also appear on page 170 = lower=20 left. Obviously,
not the "Corridor".
Thanks,
Ken Meyer,=20 PRRT&HS
Modeling Baltimore in the mid-40s

Andy Cich=20 wrote:

>-----Original Message-----
>Has anyone ever = attempted=20 to model PRR style switch machines? The type you
>see on the = Northeast=20 Corridor. Are drawings available?
>Ken Meyer
>Bel Air,=20 MD
>
>
>
>Ken,
>
>Can you suggest = a photo=20 in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere
>where one of = these NE=20 Corridor switch machines can be seen?
>
>I'm no switch = machine=20 expert, but I do have a US&S Installation &
>Maintenance = manual=20 for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, = dated
>6/53. =20 There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post = them
>to=20 the PRR-Modeling files/photos section.
>
>
>Andy=20 = Cich
>
>
>---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
>For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>= =20 =
>

-------------------------------------------------= ----------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0546_01C384EA.D6C8BF80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:00:57 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] PRR J1 whistle Guys: What type of whistle did the PRR J1's have? If anybody could tell me what the best Soundtraxx equivalent is, I'd also appreciate it. Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:21:58 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) From: Frederick Ripley Hi All, A couple of weeks ago I posted a question about PRR Walthers sleepers (HO), and received a number of helpful responses. Now I have a couple of similar questions about coaches. In the new MR, there are ads for Walthers PS 52-seat coaches, of which they do a PRR version, and Rivarossi (sold by Walthers apparently) "smooth-side" 44-seat coaches. The PRR car appears to be numbered as a P85 (4264). How close do either of these come to a PRR prototype, presumably the P85? Has anyone seen the Rivarossi car to say how closely the paint matches Rivarossi sleepers? Thanks for any info, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:29:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] 3C-P1 Another approach Hi, Another alternative would be to change scales to N scale, where this truck is commercially available. ;-) (Probably the ONLY case where this is true!) - Claus > I've been fooling around with kitbashing a 3C-P1 and have two approaches. One > is to take an Athearn 3-axle truck and modify it with styrene strips and some > simple resins castings I made. I looks reasonably good but the modification > is fussy work. The other approach is to kitbash some ECW two-axle truck > sideframes. I've got the parts but haven't tried it yet - but the 2-axle > trucks they make that could go under an mP54 have some of the right shapes for > the leaf springs and the outside bolster such that I hope to take two of these > sideframes, cut them up and re-assemble them into a 3-axle form and then use > this as a master to make copies with resin. > > There has to be a simpler way!! The 3C-P1 truck was common up into the 1950's > and has come for me to have a very "Pennsy" look and feel for me. Since I > model the PRR in 1920, they are eally essential to get the right look for my > headend cars. > > George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:46:39 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Look for address Group, The March 1979 "Rails Northeast" has an article on "The Northern Central Railway" by Martin K. Van Horn. Does anyone have an address so I might contact him? Thanks, Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS Modeling Baltimore in the mid-40s ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:53:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) --part1_1c6.f8e1164.2ca79936_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neither the Walthers nor the Rivarossi models you mention come close to any PRR prototype, let alone the P85B. Better wait for the correct plastic models coming out soon (I forget the manufacturer's name) in HO scale, or get the Brass Car Sides kits which are available now. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1c6.f8e1164.2ca79936_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neither the Walthers nor the Rivarossi models you ment= ion come close to any PRR prototype, let alone the P85B. Better wait f= or the correct plastic models coming out soon (I forget the manufacturer's n= ame) in HO scale, or get the Brass Car Sides kits which are available now.
Chris Baker
#1918 --part1_1c6.f8e1164.2ca79936_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:04:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > Neither the Walthers nor the Rivarossi models you mention come close to any > PRR prototype, let alone the P85B. Better wait for the correct plastic models > coming out soon (I forget the manufacturer's name) in HO scale, or get the > Brass Car Sides kits which are available now. DesPlaines Hobbies, assembled and retailed by Intermountain. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:05:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Non-railroad construction tracks --part1_69.3c65278e.2ca79bd3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/27/2003 3:16:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes: > PRR spotted many H30-class covered hoppers at a siding off the > Cumberland Valley branch near Chambersburg to aid in the construction of > the eastern portion of the original Pennsylvania Turnpike > (Carlisle-Irwin, 160 miles, opened October 1, 1940). > And the narrow gauge EBT took H30 covered hoppers on special 3-foot trucks down its Shade Gap branch to aid in turnpike construction. (Implausible as this may seem, it is not urban legend. Confirming photos exist.) Lee Rainey --part1_69.3c65278e.2ca79bd3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/27/2003 3:16:54 AM Eastern Standa= rd Time, cupper@att.net writes:

PRR spotted many H30-class cove= red hoppers at a siding off the
Cumberland Valley branch near Chambersburg to aid in the construction of the eastern portion of the original Pennsylvania Turnpike
(Carlisle-Irwin, 160 miles, opened October 1, 1940).

And the narrow gauge EBT took H30 covered hoppers on special 3-foot trucks d= own its Shade Gap branch to aid in turnpike construction. (Implausible as th= is may seem, it is not urban legend. Confirming photos exist.)

Lee Rainey
--part1_69.3c65278e.2ca79bd3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:23:25 +0100 Andy, Lists, strange thing, co-incidence. Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and Dave would do the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs which have proven quite popular for modellers in the US. I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party would care to scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have are the track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only give a plan view, no elevations. Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that was suitable for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one then Lines West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" To: "Ken Meyer" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler > -----Original Message----- > Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you > see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? > Ken Meyer > Bel Air, MD > > > > Ken, > > Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere > where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? > > I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & > Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, dated > 6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them > to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. > > > Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:25:21 EDT Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails --part1_93.338e3443.2ca84951_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, YUZE GIZE... For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He has masterfully done for us, the modelers, that which we have either not found the time to do or not realized the research resources for. Although I have seen a similar, I have not seen Bruce's interpretation. I would love to work with Bruce on the same for the 1953-55 time frame and just perhaps this could become something worthy of preservation in our own THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that a very attractive "handout" for our display in COCOA BEACH this coming January. Once you see this on paper it actually helps you focus on what you could purchase and actually provides you with a check list as you are shopping in obscure shops like Ziantek(SP?) in the Chicago area who still seems to have a good selection of the missing link freight car kits... Personally, I can't seem to spend less than 2 hundies when I visit the darn place same goes for Des Plaines Hobbies. But with this information in hand while you shop and more importantly while you model you may just achieve the perfect mix of foreign "off-line" equipment and PRR equipment. Now you are shopping functionally instead of more for the "spectacularly" painted cars if you are modeling the early post war years. However; if you are modeling the early to mid fifties, the more "spectacular" paint schemes begin to show up, and capture the attention of the modelers eye (or at least his minds eye) and we can now have the popular PS-1 boxcars that are being offered. Cars with more catchy slogans begin to appear behind steam, such as, "Don't Stand ME Still", "Serves The Steel Centers", "Symbol of Service", just to mention a few. I think Bruce's example of what can be done is great fodder for an article in THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that how we as Pennsy Modelers can model the aforementioned cars regardless of era is the natural next step. What do you guys think? Maybe if we are lucky we can get Ben Hom to contribute a model or two as well as others. Keep 'um Polished... Greg Martin --part1_93.338e3443.2ca84951_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, YUZE GIZE...

For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He has mas= terfully done for us, the modelers, that which we have either not found the=20= time to do or not realized the research resources for. Although I have seen=20= a similar, I have not seen Bruce's interpretation. I would love to work with= Bruce on the same for the 1953-55 time frame and just perhaps this could be= come something worthy of preservation in our own THE KEYSTONE MODELER and be= yond that a very attractive "handout" for our display in COCOA BEACH this co= ming January.

Once you see this on paper it actually helps you focus on what you could pur= chase and actually provides you with a check list as you are shopping in obs= cure shops like Ziantek(SP?) in the Chicago area who still seems to have a g= ood selection of the missing link freight car kits... Personally, I ca= n't seem to spend less than 2 hundies when I visit the darn place same goes=20= for Des Plaines Hobbies.

But with this information in hand while you shop and more importantly while=20= you model you may just achieve the perfect mix of foreign "off-line" equipme= nt and PRR equipment. Now you are shopping functionally instead of more for=20= the "spectacularly" painted cars if you are modeling the early post war year= s. However; if you are modeling the early to mid fifties, the more "spectacu= lar" paint schemes begin to show up, and capture the attention of the modele= rs eye (or at least his minds eye) and we can now have the popular PS-1 boxc= ars that are being offered. Cars with more catchy slogans begin to app= ear behind steam, such as, "Don't Stand ME Still", "Serves The Steel Centers= ", "Symbol of Service", just to mention a few.

I think Bruce's example of what can be done is great fodder for an article i= n THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that how we as Pennsy Modelers can model t= he aforementioned cars regardless of era is the natural next step. What do y= ou guys think? Maybe if we are lucky we can get Ben Hom to contribute a mode= l or two as well as others.

Keep 'um Polished...

Greg Martin --part1_93.338e3443.2ca84951_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:53:55 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Switch Machines Andy, Please do -- I am also interested. Steve Bartlett Andy Cich wrote: ...I do have a US&S Installation & Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, dated 6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Renee Harris Subject: [PRR] John STEVENS-PA RR-Killed-Civil War I'm not sure if this is the right list for this query. I'm looking for any info. about John Dawson "Doss" STEVENS who was an engineer or fireman on the Pennsylvania Railroad during the Civil War. Supposedly he was killed in the Carolinas while transporting Civil War soldiers. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks, Renee Harris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Switch Machine Drawings Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:33:51 -0500 Guys, I placed some switch machine drawings in the file area for the PRR-Modeling Yahoo Group. They are in a folder called M23A. These are for electric switch machines, not the pneumatic ones shown in the pictures sent by Ken Meyer and Dick Bregler. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:17:12 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great --------------080805010404080004040308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Please let us all know how you make out with this adventure. I believe (like "The Keystone Modeler") its something that we've needed for a long time. My vote is for Lines East. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS John H. Wright wrote: >Andy, Lists, >strange thing, co-incidence. > >Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in >whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and Dave would do >the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs which have >proven quite popular for modellers in the US. > >I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party would care to >scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have are the >track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only give a plan >view, no elevations. >Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that was suitable >for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one then Lines >West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) > >Regards, > John H. Wright, > Washington, England >Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: >http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Andy Cich" >To: "Ken Meyer" ; >Cc: >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM >Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for >The Keystone Modeler > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you >>see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? >>Ken Meyer >>Bel Air, MD >> >> >> >>Ken, >> >>Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere >>where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? >> >>I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & >>Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, >> >> >dated > > >>6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them >>to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. >> >> >>Andy Cich >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------080805010404080004040308 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John,
Please let us all know how you make out with this adventure. I believe (like "The Keystone Modeler") its something that we've needed for a long time. My vote is for Lines East.
Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS

John H. Wright wrote:

Andy, Lists, strange thing, co-incidence. Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and Dave would do the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs which have proven quite popular for modellers in the US. I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party would care to scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have are the track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only give a plan view, no elevations. Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that was suitable for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one then Lines West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@insightbb.com> To: "Ken Meyer" <knmeyer@comcast.net>; <PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com> Cc: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler

-----Original Message----- Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? Ken Meyer Bel Air, MD Ken, Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines,

dated

6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. Andy Cich

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------080805010404080004040308-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:25:40 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C38607.10F39DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg Martin wrote: "I would love to work with Bruce on the same for the 1953-55 time frame = and just perhaps this could become something worthy of preservation in = our own THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that a very attractive "handout" = for our display in COCOA BEACH this coming January." I'm currently working up an article on developing a model freight car = fleet for RMC, and will also be giving clinics on this subject at the = NMRA MER Convention (Reston, VA) on Columbus Day Weekend and at = Prototype Rails at Cocoa Beach in January.=20 "I think Bruce's example of what can be done is great fodder for an = article in THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that how we as Pennsy = Modelers can model the aforementioned cars regardless of era is the = natural next step. What do you guys think? Maybe if we are lucky we can = get Ben Hom to contribute a model or two as well as others." X29s are coming to TKM early next year...stay tuned. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C38607.10F39DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg Martin wrote:

"I would = love to work=20 with Bruce on the same for the 1953-55 time frame and just perhaps this = could=20 become something worthy of preservation in our own THE KEYSTONE MODELER = and=20 beyond that a very attractive "handout" for our display in COCOA BEACH = this=20 coming January."

I'm = currently working up=20 an article on developing a model freight car fleet for RMC, and will = also be=20 giving clinics on this subject at the NMRA MER = Convention (Reston, VA)=20 on Columbus Day Weekend and at Prototype Rails at Cocoa Beach in=20 January.

"I think = Bruce's example=20 of what can be done is great fodder for an article in THE KEYSTONE = MODELER and=20 beyond that how we as Pennsy Modelers can model the aforementioned cars=20 regardless of era is the natural next step. What do you guys think? = Maybe if we=20 are lucky we can get Ben Hom to contribute a model or two as well as=20 others."

X29s are = coming to TKM=20 early next year...stay tuned.

Ben = Hom

------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C38607.10F39DC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Switch Machine Drawings Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 02:33:35 +0000 Couldn't you just go wo www.switch.com and download the catalogue? The M23 is still sold by US&S as is the A-5 >From: "Andy Cich" >To: "Prr-talk" , "PRR-Modeling" >, , , , >Subject: [PRR] Switch Machine Drawings >Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:33:51 -0500 > >Guys, > >I placed some switch machine drawings in the file area for the PRR-Modeling >Yahoo Group. They are in a folder called M23A. > >These are for electric switch machines, not the pneumatic ones shown in the >pictures sent by Ken Meyer and Dick Bregler. > > >Andy Cich > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get McAfee virus scanning and cleaning of incoming attachments. Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Switch Machine Drawings Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:08:32 -0500 -----Original Message----- Couldn't you just go wo www.switch.com and download the catalogue? The M23 is still sold by US&S as is the A-5 Cool site! Thanks for the link. The catalog does have drawings of the electric switch machines, as well as the pneumatic. Now if we can get US&S to post some historic catalogs on-line. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] EP22 with Mars light Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:38:00 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C38621.EF7C9D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am searching my files for the numbers of the two EP22 with headlight = and Mars light. In the meantime, does anyone on the list have these = numbers ready to hand? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C38621.EF7C9D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am searching my files for the numbers = of the two=20 EP22 with headlight and Mars light. In the meantime, does anyone = on the=20 list have these numbers ready to hand?

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C38621.EF7C9D70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] EP22 with Mars light Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:47:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C3862B.B42BF040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, They were #5700A & 5701A. Photos of both are in Wither's "PRR Diesel = Locomotive Pictorial Volume 7" pages 519-520. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Zoeller=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:38 AM Subject: [PRR] EP22 with Mars light I am searching my files for the numbers of the two EP22 with headlight = and Mars light. In the meantime, does anyone on the list have these = numbers ready to hand? =20 Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C3862B.B42BF040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,

They were #5700A & 5701A. Photos of = both are in=20 Wither's "PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 7" pages = 519-520.

Jack Consoli

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob = Zoeller=20
To: PRR-Talk

Sent: Monday, September 29, = 2003 1:38=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] EP22 with Mars = light

I am searching my files for the = numbers of the=20 two EP22 with headlight and Mars light. In the meantime, does = anyone on=20 the list have these numbers ready to hand?

Bob = Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C3862B.B42BF040-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:13:22 -0400 Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails From: Jerry Britton On Sunday, September 28, 2003, at 10:25 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He > has masterfully done for us, Hey, Bruce, how soon will you have the program ready? You know, the one where you type in what branch and era you are modeling, and it calculates and spits out a report of what your roster should be, by road name and car class!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:20:44 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) The two coaches you refer to are NOT PRR. However, the Walthers Budd (not PS) 52 seat coach is a good rendition of the Seaboard fleet for the Silver Meteor and other NY-Florida trains. The PRR contributed coaches of that design to that fleet. So those models lettered for PRR are accurate if run in NY-Florida service. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Frederick Ripley wrote: > Hi All, > > A couple of weeks ago I posted a question about PRR Walthers sleepers (HO), > and received a number of helpful responses. Now I have a couple of similar > questions about coaches. > > In the new MR, there are ads for Walthers PS 52-seat coaches, of which they > do a PRR version, and Rivarossi (sold by Walthers apparently) "smooth-side" > 44-seat coaches. The PRR car appears to be numbered as a P85 (4264). > > How close do either of these come to a PRR prototype, presumably the P85? > Has anyone seen the Rivarossi car to say how closely the paint matches > Rivarossi sleepers? > > Thanks for any info, > > Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:22:14 -0500 Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-2-635188602 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sheesh! When am I supposed to work on MY railroad? Actually, one resource that would be outstanding on the web would be to have the ENTIRE table of PRR car frequencies from the Keystone posted. I have not done it, mostly because I have not had the time to ask Al or Chuck for permission. I realize that it probably isn't necessary, but I'd still feel better if I had it. Such a table could be cross-referenced to Rob's excellent site, bringing up the proto, photo and model info for each class. As for Jerry's idea, I am working on transferring what I have into an Excel spreadsheet that will monitor my inventory, completion of kits and needed kits (so for example, I can order the Sunshine kit I need before it is D/C). The spreadsheet then becomes my "shopping list". Happy Rails Bruce On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 07:13 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Sunday, September 28, 2003, at 10:25 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > >> For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He >> has masterfully done for us, > > Hey, Bruce, how soon will you have the program ready? > > You know, the one where you type in what branch and era you are > modeling, and it calculates and spits out a report of what your roster > should be, by road name and car class!!! ;-) Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-635188602 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Sheesh! When am I supposed to work on MY railroad? < Actually, one resource that would be outstanding on the web would be to have the ENTIRE table of PRR car frequencies from the Keystone posted. I have not done it, mostly because I have not had the time to ask Al or Chuck for permission. I realize that it probably isn't necessary, but I'd still feel better if I had it. Such a table could be cross-referenced to Rob's excellent site, bringing up the proto, photo and model info for each class. As for Jerry's idea, I am working on transferring what I have into an Excel spreadsheet that will monitor my inventory, completion of kits and needed kits (so for example, I can order the Sunshine kit I need before it is D/C). The spreadsheet then becomes my "shopping list". Happy Rails Bruce On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 07:13 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: On Sunday, September 28, 2003, at 10:25 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He has masterfully done for us, Hey, Bruce, how soon will you have the program ready? You know, the one where you type in what branch and era you are modeling, and it calculates and spits out a report of what your roster should be, by road name and car class!!! ;-) Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-635188602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:39:14 -0400 Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails From: Jerry Britton On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 09:22 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Sheesh! When am I supposed to work on MY railroad? C'mon, Bruce, you don't even have a building to put your layout in yet, so surely you have lots of time! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:56:11 -0500 Subject: Re: LONG! [PRR] "Signature" Cars on Pennsy Rails From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-18-648025189 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sunday, September 28, 2003, at 09:25 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey, YUZE GIZE... > > For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He > has masterfully done for us, the modelers, that which we have either > not found the time to do or not realized the research resources for. > Although I have seen a similar, I have not seen Bruce's > interpretation. I would love to work with Bruce on the same for the > 1953-55 time frame and just perhaps this could become something worthy > of preservation in our own THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that a very > attractive "handout" for our display in COCOA BEACH this coming > January. You do the work, I'll be happy to give you advice !!! TKM strikes me as a great venue for such a thing. Actually, much of what I have came from the archives of the steam era freight car group, and 90% of that from Tim Gilbert. The rest, which I suppose are the most critical details, I have started to put together from handouts from people like Richard Hendrickson and Tony Thompson at places like prototype rails in Cocoa Beach. Each time Ted Culotta publishes an article in the series of "essential freight cars" I get some more information on longevity and numbers. After all, his essential car may be gone, or not have been built in your particular time frame... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-18-648025189 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Sunday, September 28, 2003, at 09:25 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: ArialHey, YUZE GIZE... For the sake of bandwidth I didn't repeat what Bruce had written. He has masterfully done for us, the modelers, that which we have either not found the time to do or not realized the research resources for. Although I have seen a similar, I have not seen Bruce's interpretation. I would love to work with Bruce on the same for the 1953-55 time frame and just perhaps this could become something worthy of preservation in our own THE KEYSTONE MODELER and beyond that a very attractive "handout" for our display in COCOA BEACH this coming January. You do the work, I'll be happy to give you advice <!!! TKM strikes me as a great venue for such a thing. Actually, much of what I have came from the archives of the steam era freight car group, and 90% of that from Tim Gilbert. The rest, which I suppose are the most critical details, I have started to put together from handouts from people like Richard Hendrickson and Tony Thompson at places like prototype rails in Cocoa Beach. Each time Ted Culotta publishes an article in the series of "essential freight cars" I get some more information on longevity and numbers. After all, his essential car may be gone, or not have been built in your particular time frame... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-18-648025189-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:00:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR B60b Express Messenger at Middletown PA! From: Jerry Britton Yesterday I was over in Middletown, Pa., for a youth football game that my daughter was cheering at. We got there early and my son heard the whistle of the Middletown & Hummelstown Railroad's ( http://www.mhrailroad.com/ ) recently returned to service steam locomotive #91. So we drove a few blocks to check it out. I've never taken the "Milk & Honey" line seriously, and hadn't been on-site for a good 15 years or so. I was surprised at how much old, busted up rolling stock they have been collecting...rail buses, old coaches, etc. Are they starting a museum or something? Anyway, we visited the station. As we came out, looking southeast, there was about 10 feet of an old heavyweight car sticking out from behind a building about fifty feet away. There was just enough visible to clearly make out a PRR keystone on the side! And then I noticed the roof vents...could it be? Sure enough, buried behind buildings on tight tracks with other "rust bucket" cars was a PRR B60b Express Messenger car!!! I couldn't find a road number, but I'll likely return to see what I can find out. They also have a Railway Express Agency plug-door reefer, #7769. Couldn't make out any class info or dates. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:28:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks All this talk of RR access to construction sites reminds me of the time during the 70's when the Mass Port Authority here in Boston was undertaking a major construction project near Lynn MA. They solicited bids for the hauling of all the dirt to be removed from the site and ConRail put in a very competitive bid to build a line into the site and haul it all out. They lost to a local trucking company. Conrail protested when they got a chance to examine the winning bid and realized that the trucking company could not fulfill their obligations without overloading the trucks substantially beyond the limit allowed by the State. The State and the Port Authority told CR to go away and talk to someone who gave a s**t. They had their low bid. Time passes and six months later one of the severely overloaded trucks from the construction site is crossing the Mystic River Bridge (owner - the Mass Port Authority). This bridge is double decked and the truck is on the lower level. Its brakes can't hold the load, the truck goes out of control and slams into one of the supports brining the upper level down on top of the lower level. The Port Authority's bridge is closed for almost a year. Being one of only two river crossings in Boston, the City is tied in knots (rapid transit ridership goes way up :-)), and the PA wants to know who's to blame!! -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:09:35 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C386AC.74FC8930 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; I don't know if the question referred to pneumatics, electrically-operated, or manual machines, or if I even know what I am talking about. But, the vast majority of machines were manual. Interlockings were another case, as they had to thrown stuff really fast. But I am under the impression that many locations on the main, and most all of them in yards were manual machines. If we are talking about manual machines; First, I have a copy of a drawing of the "standard low switch target; reflectorized with Scotchlite" 73916-B, dated Oct 1964 and "standard reflectorized low switch target" 73915-A dated March 1957, as these were the parts that were built under spec for the Pennsy. They had that "dogbone" red for main tracks/yellow for yard tracks paddle facing one direction, and the diagonal arrow green (later) or white (earlier) on both ends of the other paddle, like we see in all the photos. Pick up your Morning Sun Color Guide books and look at some of the photos that Paul Winters and others took with the stands in the picture somewhere at the bottom. There are some good ones out there, you just have to be looking for them. You could etch these targets in brass; one with a slot pointing down and the pointed top, the other with the slot pointing up. I did one in styrene, but it was WAY too much of a pain. You'd need to etch a hole in the upward-pointing diagonal, for the reflector, which you can do with tiny MV lenses BTW, which should be no big deal. They look good when done. The illuminated targets I do not have a lot on. I just remember the basic features of the target, not the machine or details. That is because I spent all my time in the less-frequented areas ( I hated being chased around by cops). I could be totally off base, but I don't think the PRR had their own stands made, they just bought the ones they wanted from what was available. At least, all the machines I saw at track level, in my area, were commercially-available from vendors. The name etched on most of them was Bethlehem. The actual switch machines were often "New Centuries", I am now told. The one I remember the most is the familiar one with the dome-looking housing, like the white metal one in the ME switch packages. It has a slot cut in the back of the arm weight, though. Another similar one is the Bethlehem Model 53, which has a similar shape. In fact, so similar I can't see much difference at a distance. So I could be mixing them up in some instances. The Model 53 was meant mainly for mainline use, however. The reason being it was a "positive throw" machine that put pressure on that could not be moved by thrust on the points. Another similar one is the USS Johnstown; Lorain Division (Carnegie-Illinois Steel) "Johnstown switch stand" (machine). Instead of a square weight, it has the tapered weight with a square hole cut in the top. PRR had at least a few that had "USS" imprinted in the top. All had a standard lamp tip that was square with a taper to the top so you could stick a lantern up top. John, if you drop me your address, I will get copies to you in the mail (sorry, no scanner). Or should I just have Al post them on the website? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ken Meyer [mailto:knmeyer@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:17 AM To: John H. Wright Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler John, Please let us all know how you make out with this adventure. I believe (like "The Keystone Modeler") its something that we've needed for a long time. My vote is for Lines East. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS John H. Wright wrote: >Andy, Lists, >strange thing, co-incidence. > >Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in >whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and Dave would do >the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs which have >proven quite popular for modellers in the US. > >I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party would care to >scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have are the >track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only give a plan >view, no elevations. >Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that was suitable >for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one then Lines >West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) > >Regards, > John H. Wright, > Washington, England >Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: >http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Andy Cich" >To: "Ken Meyer" ; >Cc: >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM >Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for >The Keystone Modeler > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you >>see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? >>Ken Meyer >>Bel Air, MD >> >> >> >>Ken, >> >>Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere >>where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? >> >>I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & >>Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, >> >> >dated > > >>6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them >>to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. >> >> >>Andy Cich >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C386AC.74FC8930 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = all;

=
I don't know if the question referred to pneumatics, electrically-operated, or manual machines, or = if I even know what I am talking about. = But, the vast majority of machines were manual. Interlockings were another case, as = they had to thrown stuff really fast. = But I am under the impression that many locations on the main, and most all = of them in yards were manual machines. = If we are talking about manual machines;

=
First, I have a copy of a drawing = of the "standard low switch target; reflectorized with Scotchlite" 73916-B, dated Oct 1964 and "standard reflectorized low switch target" 73915-A = dated March 1957, as these were the parts that were built under spec for the Pennsy. They had that = "dogbone" red for main tracks/yellow for yard = tracks paddle facing one direction, and the diagonal arrow green (later) or = white (earlier) on both ends of the other paddle, like we see in all the = photos. Pick up your Morning Sun Color = Guide books and look at some of the photos that Paul Winters and others took = with the stands in the picture somewhere at the bottom. There are some good ones out = there, you just have to be looking for = them.

=
You could etch these targets in = brass; one with a slot pointing down and the pointed top, the other with the slot = pointing up. I did one in styrene, = but it was WAY too much of a pain. = You'd need to etch a hole in the upward-pointing diagonal, for the reflector, = which you can do with tiny MV lenses BTW, which should be no big deal. They look good when = done.

=
The illuminated targets I do not = have a lot on. I just remember = the basic features of the target, not the machine or details. That is because I spent all my = time in the less-frequented areas ( I hated being = chased around by cops).

=
I could be totally off base, but I = don't think the PRR had their own stands made, they just bought the ones they = wanted from what was available. = At least, all the machines I saw at track level, in my area, were = commercially-available from vendors. The name = etched on most of them was Bethlehem= . The actual switch machines were often "New Centuries", I am now told. The one I = remember the most is the familiar one with the dome-looking housing, like the = white metal one in the ME switch packages. It has a slot cut in the back of the arm weight, though. Another similar one is the = Bethlehem Model 53, which has a similar shape. In fact, so similar I can't see = much difference at a distance. So I could be mixing them up in some = instances. The Model 53 was meant mainly = for mainline use, however. The reason being it was a "positive throw" machine that put pressure on that could not be moved by thrust on the points. =

=
Another similar one is the USS = Johnstown; Lorain Division (Carnegie-Illinois Steel) = "Johnstown switch stand" (machine). Instead of a square weight, it = has the tapered weight with a square hole cut in the top. PRR had at least a few that = had "USS" imprinted in the top.

=
All had a standard lamp tip that = was square with a taper to the top so you could stick a lantern up = top.

=
John, if you drop me your address, = I will get copies to you in the mail (sorry, no scanner). Or should I just have Al post = them on the website?

=
Elden

=
-----Original = Message-----
From: Ken Meyer [mailto:knmeyer@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, September = 28, 2003 11:17 AM
To: John H. Wright
Cc: = PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR-Modeling] = Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for The = Keystone Modeler

John,
Please let us all know how you make out = with this adventure. I believe
(like "The Keystone Modeler") = its something that we've needed for a long
time. My vote is for Lines = East.
Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS

John H. Wright wrote:

>Andy, Lists,
>strange thing, = co-incidence.
>
>Dave Alexander and I were discussing = making HO Pennsy switch machines in
>whitemetal, last Friday = evening. I would do the masters and Dave would do
>the castings ..... the same = arrangement as the cast insert frogs which have
>proven quite popular for modellers = in the US.
>
>I would really appreciate it if Andy = or any interested party would care to
>scan me a suitable set of = drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have are the
>track engineering drawings on Rob = Schoenberg's site which only give a plan
>view, no elevations.
>Ideally, If there is a choice of = machines, I'd prefer one that was suitable
>for both Lines West and East. = However, if I have to go for one then Lines
>West gets my vote ( we Lines West = folks have to stick together :-)
>
>Regards,
>          &nb= sp;    John H. Wright,
>          &nb= sp;    Washington,   England
>Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/   and:
>http://www.xclent.clara.net
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message = -----
>From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@insightbb.com>
>To: "Ken Meyer" <knmeyer@comcast.net>; = <PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com>
>Cc: = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
>Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 = 1:51 AM
>Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines = -- was Thanks for the great feedback for
>The Keystone Modeler
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original = Message-----
>>Has anyone ever attempted to = model PRR style switch machines? The type you
>>see on the Northeast Corridor. = Are drawings available?
>>Ken Meyer
>>Bel Air, MD
>>
>>
>>
>>Ken,
>>
>>Can you suggest a photo in one = of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere
>>where one of these NE Corridor = switch machines can be seen?
>>
>>I'm no switch machine expert, = but I do have a US&S Installation &
>>Maintenance manual for M-3. = M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines,
>>    =
>>
>dated
>
>
>>6/53. There are plenty of = drawings in there, and I can scan and post them
>>to the PRR-Modeling files/photos = section.
>>
>>
>>Andy Cich
>>    =
>>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
>For assistance with this list, = please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have = been removed]

Yahoo! Groups = Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT<= br>

=

Sharing and = enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in = miniature !

To unsubscribe from this group, send an = email to:
PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C386AC.74FC8930-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:14:31 -0400 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) The Rivarossi corrugated-sided PS coach is based on a Southern Railway prototype. However, the PRR contributed three cars of that design for through-train operations with the Southern. The three cars were numbered (4030, 4031, 4032?) and named (New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey?). Chris Baker #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:28:50 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks All this talk of RR access to construction sites reminds me of the time during the 70's when the Mass Port Authority here in Boston was undertaking a major construction project near Lynn MA. They solicited bids for the hauling of all the dirt to be removed from the site and ConRail put in a very competitive bid to build a line into the site and haul it all out. They lost to a local trucking company. Conrail protested when they got a chance to examine the winning bid and realized that the trucking company could not fulfill their obligations without overloading the trucks substantially beyond the limit allowed by the State. The State and the Port Authority told CR to go away and talk to someone who gave a s**t. They had their low bid. Time passes and six months later one of the severely overloaded trucks from the construction site is crossing the Mystic River Bridge (owner - the Mass Port Authority). This bridge is double decked and the truck is on the lower level. Its brakes can't hold the load, the truck goes out of control and slams into one of the supports brining the upper level down on top of the lower level. The Port Authority's bridge is closed for almost a year. Being one of only two river crossings in Boston, the City is tied in knots (rapid transit ridership goes way up :-)), and the PA wants to know who's to blame!! -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:44:13 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) Chris, I don't think Rivarossi ever made a PS fluted side coach. I think you are thinking of the IHC cars, many of which are, as you said, a pre-war Southern prototype (coach, combine, diner, baggage, and RPO). I have used several of them on my Southern connection to Penn Station NY. I have removed the "gasket" around the coach windows, and removed most of the skirts. This makes them look acceptable (a relative term) for post war appearance. Some day I may go back and also remove the Budd ends on these PS cars! Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > The Rivarossi corrugated-sided PS coach is based on a Southern Railway prototype. However, the PRR contributed three cars of that design for through-train operations with the Southern. The three cars were numbered (4030, 4031, 4032?) and named (New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey?). > > Chris Baker #1918 -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:28:50 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks All this talk of RR access to construction sites reminds me of the time during the 70's when the Mass Port Authority here in Boston was undertaking a major construction project near Lynn MA. They solicited bids for the hauling of all the dirt to be removed from the site and ConRail put in a very competitive bid to build a line into the site and haul it all out. They lost to a local trucking company. Conrail protested when they got a chance to examine the winning bid and realized that the trucking company could not fulfill their obligations without overloading the trucks substantially beyond the limit allowed by the State. The State and the Port Authority told CR to go away and talk to someone who gave a s**t. They had their low bid. Time passes and six months later one of the severely overloaded trucks from the construction site is crossing the Mystic River Bridge (owner - the Mass Port Authority). This bridge is double decked and the truck is on the lower level. Its brakes can't hold the load, the truck goes out of control and slams into one of the supports brining the upper level down on top of the lower level. The Port Authority's bridge is closed for almost a year. Being one of only two river crossings in Boston, the City is tied in knots (rapid transit ridership goes way up :-)), and the PA wants to know who's to blame!! -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:44:13 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coaches (Walthers and Rivarossi) Chris, I don't think Rivarossi ever made a PS fluted side coach. I think you are thinking of the IHC cars, many of which are, as you said, a pre-war Southern prototype (coach, combine, diner, baggage, and RPO). I have used several of them on my Southern connection to Penn Station NY. I have removed the "gasket" around the coach windows, and removed most of the skirts. This makes them look acceptable (a relative term) for post war appearance. Some day I may go back and also remove the Budd ends on these PS cars! Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > The Rivarossi corrugated-sided PS coach is based on a Southern Railway prototype. However, the PRR contributed three cars of that design for through-train operations with the Southern. The three cars were numbered (4030, 4031, 4032?) and named (New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey?). > > Chris Baker #1918 -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:02:33 -0400 Guys, I have drawings 73915-A and 73916-B (the switch targets) in the collection of standard plans on my website. See: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=73915-A http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=73916-b The New Century switch stand info is on plan 73900... http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=73900-A There are a few other turnout related plans also... The index is at: http://prr.railfan.net/standards I also think that some of the switch layouts in the signal plans have some info on the pneumatic & electrical switch machines.. http://prr.railfan.net/signalstandards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:10 PM > To: 'PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com'; John H. Wright > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks > forthe great feedback for The Keystone Modeler > > > Hi all; > > I don't know if the question referred to pneumatics, > electrically-operated, > or manual machines, or if I even know what I am talking about. But, the > vast majority of machines were manual. Interlockings were > another case, as > they had to thrown stuff really fast. But I am under the impression that > many locations on the main, and most all of them in yards were manual > machines. If we are talking about manual machines; > > First, I have a copy of a drawing of the "standard low switch target; > reflectorized with Scotchlite" 73916-B, dated Oct 1964 and "standard > reflectorized low switch target" 73915-A dated March 1957, as > these were the > parts that were built under spec for the Pennsy. They had that "dogbone" > red for main tracks/yellow for yard tracks paddle facing one > direction, and > the diagonal arrow green (later) or white (earlier) on both ends of the > other paddle, like we see in all the photos. Pick up your > Morning Sun Color > Guide books and look at some of the photos that Paul Winters and > others took > with the stands in the picture somewhere at the bottom. There > are some good > ones out there, you just have to be looking for them. > > You could etch these targets in brass; one with a slot pointing > down and the > pointed top, the other with the slot pointing up. I did one in > styrene, but > it was WAY too much of a pain. You'd need to etch a hole in the > upward-pointing diagonal, for the reflector, which you can do with tiny MV > lenses BTW, which should be no big deal. They look good when done. > > The illuminated targets I do not have a lot on. I just remember the basic > features of the target, not the machine or details. That is > because I spent > all my time in the less-frequented areas ( I hated being chased around by > cops). > > I could be totally off base, but I don't think the PRR had their > own stands > made, they just bought the ones they wanted from what was available. At > least, all the machines I saw at track level, in my area, were > commercially-available from vendors. The name etched on most of them was > Bethlehem. The actual switch machines were often "New Centuries", I am now > told. The one I remember the most is the familiar one with the > dome-looking > housing, like the white metal one in the ME switch packages. It > has a slot > cut in the back of the arm weight, though. Another similar one is the > Bethlehem Model 53, which has a similar shape. In fact, so similar I can't > see much difference at a distance. So I could be mixing them up in some > instances. The Model 53 was meant mainly for mainline use, however. The > reason being it was a "positive throw" machine that put pressure on that > could not be moved by thrust on the points. > > Another similar one is the USS Johnstown; Lorain Division > (Carnegie-Illinois > Steel) "Johnstown switch stand" (machine). Instead of a square weight, it > has the tapered weight with a square hole cut in the top. PRR > had at least > a few that had "USS" imprinted in the top. > > All had a standard lamp tip that was square with a taper to the top so you > could stick a lantern up top. > > John, if you drop me your address, I will get copies to you in the mail > (sorry, no scanner). Or should I just have Al post them on the website? > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Meyer [mailto:knmeyer@comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:17 AM > To: John H. Wright > Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was > Thanks for the > great feedback for The Keystone Modeler > > John, > Please let us all know how you make out with this adventure. I believe > (like "The Keystone Modeler") its something that we've needed for a long > time. My vote is for Lines East. > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS > > John H. Wright wrote: > > >Andy, Lists, > >strange thing, co-incidence. > > > >Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in > >whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and > Dave would do > >the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs > which have > >proven quite popular for modellers in the US. > > > >I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party > would care to > >scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I > have are the > >track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only > give a plan > >view, no elevations. > >Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that > was suitable > >for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one > then Lines > >West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) > > > >Regards, > > John H. Wright, > > Washington, England > >Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ > and: > >http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Andy Cich" > >To: "Ken Meyer" ; > >Cc: > >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM > >Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great > feedback for > >The Keystone Modeler > > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? > The type you > >>see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? > >>Ken Meyer > >>Bel Air, MD > >> > >> > >> > >>Ken, > >> > >>Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere > >>where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? > >> > >>I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & > >>Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, > >> > >> > >dated > > > > > >>6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan > and post them > >>to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. > >> > >> > >>Andy Cich > >> > >> > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > click here Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9MtolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:03:19 -0400 That's a pretty good story. Sounds typical of a gov't project Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Andrew S. Miller Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:29 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks All this talk of RR access to construction sites reminds me of the time during the 70's when the Mass Port Authority here in Boston was undertaking a major construction project near Lynn MA. They solicited bids for the hauling of all the dirt to be removed from the site and ConRail put in a very competitive bid to build a line into the site and haul it all out. They lost to a local trucking company. Conrail protested when they got a chance to examine the winning bid and realized that the trucking company could not fulfill their obligations without overloading the trucks substantially beyond the limit allowed by the State. The State and the Port Authority told CR to go away and talk to someone who gave a s**t. They had their low bid. Time passes and six months later one of the severely overloaded trucks from the construction site is crossing the Mystic River Bridge (owner - the Mass Port Authority). This bridge is double decked and the truck is on the lower level. Its brakes can't hold the load, the truck goes out of control and slams into one of the supports brining the upper level down on top of the lower level. The Port Authority's bridge is closed for almost a year. Being one of only two river crossings in Boston, the City is tied in knots (rapid transit ridership goes way up :-)), and the PA wants to know who's to blame!! -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: LONG! [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:50:46 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C386D3.BD08FC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruce; Greg; Sorry, my computer was messin' with me. @#$%^%! =20 I am finding this all very interesting. After reading a lot on this = subject "back when" (when John Nehrich and Richard Hendrickson were researching = all this superb info...) and figuring out that national car fleet = breakdowns did not work for my area, I went back and worked backwards into this stuff = for me. I started with the traffic base, output (where I could find it), = and what kind of cars they'd need, and then worked into the percentages of = home vs. foreign and car types and all. I used available photos, recorded = info, train info, and all, to try to calibrate it all. =20 I came up with my early 60's freight car list, and interestingly, came = to many of the same conclusions you did vis-=E0-vis freight car types and = their presence on the road. It is true that PRR hoppers dominated in my = area, and PRR gons were also dominant, but somewhat less so. Because of my = location in then Monongahela River Valley, I need a lot of cars from certain = roads, however. I am working on the eventual need for 541 cars (yeah, it = really isn't that precise, just a target number), of which 273 are PRR and 268 non-PRR. Based on the numbers for each road I needed, and the types of = cars I needed, and the numbers of cars out there, I need: =20 PRR: 23+ flats; 82 gons; 84++ hoppers; 77 boxcars; 14 covered hoppers, = and a smattering of ore and stock cars, perhaps none really of the latter. =20 For the non-PRR, "direct interchanging roads" , I need: P&WV: 2 boxes, 5 gons, 6 hoppers, 1 covered hopper P&LE: 6 boxes, 8 gons, 1 flat, 9 hoppers URR: 3 gons, 1 flat Montour: 6 hoppers McKeesport Connecting: 1 or 2 gons B&LE: 1 box, 2 gons, 1 flat, 6 hoppers =20 Then for "non-direct-interchanging but nearly.." roads, I need: B&O: 10 boxes, 5 gons, 1 flat, 21 hoppers, 1 covered hopper LV: 2 boxes, 1 gon, 1 flat, 1 hopper C&I: 3 hoppers P&S: 2 hoppers And 1 each from the Delray, South Buffalo, C&BL, Donora Southern, = Youngstown & Northern =20 Then for the "no direct interchange, and not that closely allied but = awfully weel-represented" road, I need: NYC: 4 box, 6 gons, 1 flat, 6 hoppers RDG: 1 box, 2 gons, 2 hoppers CNJ: 1 gon LNE recently absorbed into B&O fleet: 1 box and maybe two hoppers P&BR 1 gon LT 1 gon =20 Now, for the "no direct interchange but also fairly well represented" = roads: C&O: 2 box, 2 gon, 1 flat, 3 hoppers N&W: 2 box, 2 gon, 3+ hoppers (+ 1 VGN) WM: 1 box, 1 gon EL: 2 box, 2 gon, 1 flat D&H: 1 box NH: 1 box AC&Y: 2 box NKP: 1 box, 1 gon, 1 flat, 1 hopper IHB: 1 flat DT&I: 1 box, 1 gon AA: 1 box D&TS: 1 box WAB: 2 box, 1 gon NJI&I: 1 box =20 And for the rest, EJ&E, CNW, GN, NP, UP, ATSF, SP, KCS, SLSF, MKT, = DRGW, and, as they say, "etc.", one or two each. CB&Q and ATSF will be = better represented than others, due to their inordinately large presence in = the area (must've had some kind of "deal"). =20 Plus, again, for my area only, a TON of tank cars, including up to a = dozen each of UTLX, and GATX, plus a good number of SHPX, and one each: Dow, Hooker, KEBX, KGCX, KOPX, KPCX, Monsanto, PPG/SACX, and Shell = Chemical =20 Needless to say, this sure doesn't look like anyone else's fleet! What = a surprise this was to me! To say I need a lot of gons is an = understatement. But you should see how many of them (and hoppers) are in the yard = shots! Can you tell why I have to build so many of certain types of cars? For Pete's sake, I need 3 G28, 3 G31, 5 G31a, 3 G31b, 4 G32/32a, 3 G33 = a/b/c, 3 G34, 3 G35, and NINE!! of the G36 a/c/d/e/f series!!!! None of which = is even made! =20 And I still need to refine things in regards to specialty shipments of = stuff like fluorspar, burnt lime, silica (for glass) and such, as far as = where they came from and in what cars. But the research is a BLAST! =20 And if anyone is interested in the PRR part of my breakdown, I would be happy to send them the complete list, with all the special car = breakdowns. =20 The part I am still missing for my time is the specifics on certain = cars for certain roads. I will be greatly interested in all you guys turn up. =20 Elden =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C386D3.BD08FC50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bruce;
=
Greg;

Sorry, my computer was messin' with me. @#$%^%!

=
I am finding this all very interesting.=A0 After reading a = lot on this subject "back when" (when John Nehrich and Richard Hendrickson were researching all this superb info...) and figuring out that national car fleet breakdowns did not work for my = area, I went back and worked backwards into this stuff for me.=A0 I started with the traffic base, = output (where I could find it), and what kind of cars they'd need, and then worked into the percentages of home vs. foreign and car types and = all.=A0 I used available photos, recorded = info, train info, and all, to try to calibrate it all.

=
I came up with my early 60's = freight car list, and interestingly, came to many of the same conclusions you = did vis-=E0-vis freight car types and their presence on the road.=A0 It is true that PRR hoppers = dominated in my area, and PRR gons were also dominant, but = somewhat less so.=A0 Because of my = location in then Monongahela River Valley, I need a lot of cars from certain roads, however.=A0 I am working on the eventual need = for 541 cars (yeah, it really isn't that precise, just a target number), of = which 273 are PRR and 268 non-PRR.=A0 = Based on the numbers for each road I needed, and the types of cars I needed, and = the numbers of cars out there, I need:

=
PRR: 23+ flats; 82 gons; 84++ hoppers; 77 boxcars; 14 covered hoppers, and a smattering of ore = and stock cars, perhaps none really of the latter.

=
For the non-PRR, "direct interchanging roads" , I = need:

P&WV: 2 boxes, 5 gons, 6 hoppers, 1 covered hopper

P&LE: 6 boxes, 8 gons, 1 flat, 9 hoppers

URR: 3 gons, 1 flat

Montour: 6 = hoppers

McKeesport Connecting: 1 or 2 gons

B&LE: 1 box, 2 gons, 1 flat, 6 hoppers

=
Then for "non-direct-interchanging = but nearly.." roads, I = need:

B&O: 10 boxes, 5 gons, 1 flat, 21 hoppers, 1 covered hopper

LV= : 2 boxes, 1 gon, 1 flat, 1 = hopper

C&I: 3 = hoppers

P&S: 2 = hoppers

And 1 each from the Delray, = South Buffalo, C&BL, Donora Southern, Youngstown & Northern

=
Then for the "no direct interchange, and not that closely allied but = awfully weel-represented" road, I = need:

NYC: 4 box, 6 gons, 1 flat, 6 hoppers

RDG: 1 box, 2 gons, 2 hoppers

CNJ: 1 gon

LNE recently absorbed into B&O = fleet: 1 box and maybe two hoppers

P&BR 1 gon

LT 1 gon

=
Now, for the "no direct = interchange but also fairly well represented" roads:

C&O: 2 box, 2 gon, 1 flat, 3 hoppers

N&W: 2 box, 2 gon, 3+ hoppers (+ 1 VGN)

WM: 1 box, 1 gon

EL: 2 box, 2 gon, 1 flat

D&H: 1 = box

NH: 1 = box

AC&Y: 2 box

NKP: 1 box, 1 gon, 1 flat, 1 hopper

IHB: 1 = flat

DT&I: 1 box, 1 gon

AA: 1 = box

D&TS: 1 = box

WAB: 2 box, 1 gon

NJI&I: 1 = box

=
And for the rest, EJ&E, CNW, = GN, NP, UP, ATSF, SP, KCS, SLSF, MKT, DRGW, and, as they say, "etc.", one or two each.=A0 CB&Q and ATSF = will be better represented than others, due to their inordinately large = presence in the area (must've had some kind of "deal").

=
Plus, again, for my area only, a = TON of tank cars, including up to a dozen each of UTLX, and GATX, plus a good = number of SHPX, and one each:

Dow, Hooker, KEBX, KGCX, KOPX, = KPCX, Monsanto, PPG/SACX, and Shell Chemical

=
Needless to say, this sure doesn't look like anyone else's fleet!=A0 What a surprise this was to me! =A0To say I need a lot of gons is an understatement.=A0 But = you should see how many of them (and hoppers) are in the yard = shots!=A0 =A0Can you tell why I have to build so many of certain types of cars?=A0 For Pete's sake, I need 3 G28, 3 = G31, 5 G31a, 3 G31b, 4 G32/32a, 3 G33 a/b/c, 3 G34, = 3 G35, and NINE!! of the G36 a/c/d/e/f series!!!!=A0 None of which is even = made!

=
And I still need to refine things = in regards to specialty shipments of stuff like fluorspar, burnt lime, = silica (for glass) and such, as far as where they came from and in what cars.=A0 But the research is a = BLAST!

=
And if anyone is interested in the = PRR part of my breakdown, I would be happy to send them the complete list, = with all the special car breakdowns.

=
The part I am still missing for my = time is the specifics on certain cars for certain roads.=A0 I will be greatly interested in = all you guys turn up.

=
Elden

=

=

=

------_=_NextPart_001_01C386D3.BD08FC50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:24:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails In a message dated 9/29/03 10:09:27 PM, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: << I went back and worked backwards into this stuff for me. I started with the traffic base, output (where I could find it), and what kind of cars they'd need, and then worked into the percentages of home vs. foreign and car types and all. I used available photos, recorded info, train info, and all, to try to calibrate it all. >> In the early and mid-1960s, the PRR introduced something that I seem to remember was called the Freiden Flexi-Writer. This system involved putting a bar-code adhesive label on every piece of rolling stock and setting up bar code readers at key points across the system. The bar code pick up was supposed to be able to write a consist for every train/draft that passed a given point. I don't know what happened to these train records nor to the master "book" of what labels were placed on what cars. This was an attempt to "automate" the creation of CT-???s that the Yard Masters had the Yard Clerks make of the rolling stock on a given track/siding at a given time. The Freiden records may have had a more permanent life and, if so, and they do still exist, would provide an almost absolute record of what went by a certain point in any season or time. Any one aware of an article about the Pennsy's use of this Freiden system? Do any of these records still exist? The BRAC went ballistic over Yard Clerk's work being done by a machine. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:01:27 -0400 Marty, The Friden FlexoWriter machine prepared punch cards at the same time as it typed train consists, waybills, switch lists and similar items. These were then read and a computer entry made that was transmitted to the mainframes at 15 N. 32nd St. in Phila. The Friden Flexowriters had nothing to do with the KarTrak system of optical scanners that were made by Sylvania and read the "ACI Labels" on the car sides. I do recall PRR installing a reader near one of the coal scales and feeding the tare weights of the unit train coal hopper fleet into the mainframe, so that when cars were read and weighed, a freight bill could automatically be prepared. Flexowriters weren't involved in this. But putting a non-labeled car in the train made it impossible to automatically render a bill! Since yard forces could not be convinced not to put a non-labeled car in a train to replace a bad ordered car, the experiment was not a howling success. ACI did not become mandatory until 1968, and by that time PRR was no more and the FlexoWriter was not adopted by the Penn Central. BTW, the clerks HATED the Flexowriter, as it was very noisy and bid off jobs requiring their use as soon as they had enough seniority, requiring someone else be train in their use! There were five in the Bay View Yard office, and you had to shout to communicate in there. Gregg Mahlkov . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Cc: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails In a message dated 9/29/03 10:09:27 PM, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: I went back and worked backwards into this stuff for me. I started with the traffic base, output (where I could find it), and what kind of cars they'd need, and then worked into the percentages of home vs. foreign and car types and all. I used available photos, recorded info, train info, and all, to try to calibrate it all. In the early and mid-1960s, the PRR introduced something that I seem to remember was called the Freiden Flexi-Writer. This system involved putting a bar-code adhesive label on every piece of rolling stock and setting up bar code readers at key points across the system. The bar code pick up was supposed to be able to write a consist for every train/draft that passed a given point. I don't know what happened to these train records nor to the master "book" of what labels were placed on what cars. This was an attempt to "automate" the creation of CT-???s that the Yard Masters had the Yard Clerks make of the rolling stock on a given track/siding at a given time. The Freiden records may have had a more permanent life and, if so, and they do still exist, would provide an almost absolute record of what went by a certain point in any season or time. Any one aware of an article about the Pennsy's use of this Freiden system? Do any of these records still exist? The BRAC went ballistic over Yard Clerk's work being done by a machine. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:41:30 -0400 Re: the KarTrak system of optical scanners that were made by Sylvania and read the "ACI Labels" on the car sides. I do recall PRR installing a reader near one of the coal scales and feeding the tare weights of the unit train coal hopper fleet into the mainframe, so that when cars were read and weighed, a freight bill could automatically be prepared. The "ACI" scanners were installed at the Denholm and Lock Haven weigh-in-motion scales. There is a brief discussion of their operation on page 82 in the PRRT&HS book "Lewistown and the Pennsylvania Railroad - From Moccasins to Steel Wheels." The trains that ran through the weigh-in-motion scales were loaded unit coal trains. Those cars that had not yet received permanent ACI labels were given temporary labels at the train's origin yard. It was amazing to watch the operation. The scale read the weight of the first truck, then the second truck, determined the empty weight and printed out in an adjacent equipment shed (as well as Philadelphia), a report by the car number (in train order sequence) the loaded, tare and lading weight. It saved weighing all of the cars on conventional scales. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger consist book Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:05:36 -0400 Hi All, Like many of you I have been waiting for the PRR Passenger car consist book. I placed a pre-sale order last Sept. A recent letter states it is shipping in November. However, I saw a listing for it on Ebay this week. I did not want to email the seller in case he actually had one to sell. Has anyone seen his book? I hesitant to see the responses if anyone says yes. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:10:50 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks --------------010006000302040807040602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elden/John, In my original question "...PRR style switch machines? The type you see on the Northeast Corridor..." I was referring to the Interlocking (? pneumatic ?) style. Thanks, Ken Meyer ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Hi all; > > I don't know if the question referred to pneumatics, > electrically-operated, > or manual machines, or if I even know what I am talking about. But, the > vast majority of machines were manual. Interlockings were another > case, as > they had to thrown stuff really fast. But I am under the impression that > many locations on the main, and most all of them in yards were manual > machines. If we are talking about manual machines; > > First, I have a copy of a drawing of the "standard low switch target; > reflectorized with Scotchlite" 73916-B, dated Oct 1964 and "standard > reflectorized low switch target" 73915-A dated March 1957, as these > were the > parts that were built under spec for the Pennsy. They had that "dogbone" > red for main tracks/yellow for yard tracks paddle facing one > direction, and > the diagonal arrow green (later) or white (earlier) on both ends of the > other paddle, like we see in all the photos. Pick up your Morning Sun > Color > Guide books and look at some of the photos that Paul Winters and > others took > with the stands in the picture somewhere at the bottom. There are > some good > ones out there, you just have to be looking for them. > > You could etch these targets in brass; one with a slot pointing down > and the > pointed top, the other with the slot pointing up. I did one in > styrene, but > it was WAY too much of a pain. You'd need to etch a hole in the > upward-pointing diagonal, for the reflector, which you can do with tiny MV > lenses BTW, which should be no big deal. They look good when done. > > The illuminated targets I do not have a lot on. I just remember the basic > features of the target, not the machine or details. That is because I > spent > all my time in the less-frequented areas ( I hated being chased around by > cops). > > I could be totally off base, but I don't think the PRR had their own > stands > made, they just bought the ones they wanted from what was available. At > least, all the machines I saw at track level, in my area, were > commercially-available from vendors. The name etched on most of them was > Bethlehem. The actual switch machines were often "New Centuries", I am now > told. The one I remember the most is the familiar one with the > dome-looking > housing, like the white metal one in the ME switch packages. It has a > slot > cut in the back of the arm weight, though. Another similar one is the > Bethlehem Model 53, which has a similar shape. In fact, so similar I can't > see much difference at a distance. So I could be mixing them up in some > instances. The Model 53 was meant mainly for mainline use, however. The > reason being it was a "positive throw" machine that put pressure on that > could not be moved by thrust on the points. > > Another similar one is the USS Johnstown; Lorain Division > (Carnegie-Illinois > Steel) "Johnstown switch stand" (machine). Instead of a square weight, it > has the tapered weight with a square hole cut in the top. PRR had at > least > a few that had "USS" imprinted in the top. > > All had a standard lamp tip that was square with a taper to the top so you > could stick a lantern up top. > > John, if you drop me your address, I will get copies to you in the mail > (sorry, no scanner). Or should I just have Al post them on the website? > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Meyer [mailto:knmeyer@comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:17 AM > To: John H. Wright > Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks > for the > great feedback for The Keystone Modeler > > John, > Please let us all know how you make out with this adventure. I believe > (like "The Keystone Modeler") its something that we've needed for a long > time. My vote is for Lines East. > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS > > John H. Wright wrote: > > >Andy, Lists, > >strange thing, co-incidence. > > > >Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in > >whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and Dave > would do > >the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs > which have > >proven quite popular for modellers in the US. > > > >I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party would > care to > >scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have > are the > >track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only give a > plan > >view, no elevations. > >Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that was > suitable > >for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one then > Lines > >West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) > > > >Regards, > > John H. Wright, > > Washington, England > >Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ > and: > >http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Andy Cich" > >To: "Ken Meyer" ; > >Cc: > >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM > >Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great > feedback for > >The Keystone Modeler > > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The > type you > >>see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? > >>Ken Meyer > >>Bel Air, MD > >> > >> > >> > >>Ken, > >> > >>Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere > >>where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? > >> > >>I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & > >>Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, > >> > >> > >dated > > > > > >>6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and > post them > >>to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. > >> > >> > >>Andy Cich > >> > >> > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 25:HM/A=1750876/R=0/SIG=11v1mrq3u/*http:/hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=17 > 62-1062629109228440> click here > > > l/S=:HM/A=1750876/rand=134503838> > > Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better > reproduce the PRR in miniature ! > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > click here > > > > > Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better > reproduce the PRR in miniature ! > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . --------------010006000302040807040602 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------080206080004060006060902" --------------080206080004060006060902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elden/John,
In my original question "...PRR style switch machines? The type you see on the Northeast Corridor..." I was referring to the Interlocking (? pneumatic ?) style.
Thanks,
Ken Meyer

ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

Hi all; I don't know if the question referred to pneumatics, electrically-operated, or manual machines, or if I even know what I am talking about. But, the vast majority of machines were manual. Interlockings were another case, as they had to thrown stuff really fast. But I am under the impression that many locations on the main, and most all of them in yards were manual machines. If we are talking about manual machines; First, I have a copy of a drawing of the "standard low switch target; reflectorized with Scotchlite" 73916-B, dated Oct 1964 and "standard reflectorized low switch target" 73915-A dated March 1957, as these were the parts that were built under spec for the Pennsy. They had that "dogbone" red for main tracks/yellow for yard tracks paddle facing one direction, and the diagonal arrow green (later) or white (earlier) on both ends of the other paddle, like we see in all the photos. Pick up your Morning Sun Color Guide books and look at some of the photos that Paul Winters and others took with the stands in the picture somewhere at the bottom. There are some good ones out there, you just have to be looking for them. You could etch these targets in brass; one with a slot pointing down and the pointed top, the other with the slot pointing up. I did one in styrene, but it was WAY too much of a pain. You'd need to etch a hole in the upward-pointing diagonal, for the reflector, which you can do with tiny MV lenses BTW, which should be no big deal. They look good when done. The illuminated targets I do not have a lot on. I just remember the basic features of the target, not the machine or details. That is because I spent all my time in the less-frequented areas ( I hated being chased around by cops). I could be totally off base, but I don't think the PRR had their own stands made, they just bought the ones they wanted from what was available. At least, all the machines I saw at track level, in my area, were commercially-available from vendors. The name etched on most of them was Bethlehem. The actual switch machines were often "New Centuries", I am now told. The one I remember the most is the familiar one with the dome-looking housing, like the white metal one in the ME switch packages. It has a slot cut in the back of the arm weight, though. Another similar one is the Bethlehem Model 53, which has a similar shape. In fact, so similar I can't see much difference at a distance. So I could be mixing them up in some instances. The Model 53 was meant mainly for mainline use, however. The reason being it was a "positive throw" machine that put pressure on that could not be moved by thrust on the points. Another similar one is the USS Johnstown; Lorain Division (Carnegie-Illinois Steel) "Johnstown switch stand" (machine). Instead of a square weight, it has the tapered weight with a square hole cut in the top. PRR had at least a few that had "USS" imprinted in the top. All had a standard lamp tip that was square with a taper to the top so you could stick a lantern up top. John, if you drop me your address, I will get copies to you in the mail (sorry, no scanner). Or should I just have Al post them on the website? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ken Meyer [mailto:knmeyer@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:17 AM To: John H. Wright Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for The Keystone Modeler John, Please let us all know how you make out with this adventure. I believe (like "The Keystone Modeler") its something that we've needed for a long time. My vote is for Lines East. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS John H. Wright wrote: >Andy, Lists, >strange thing, co-incidence. > >Dave Alexander and I were discussing making HO Pennsy switch machines in >whitemetal, last Friday evening. I would do the masters and Dave would do >the castings ..... the same arrangement as the cast insert frogs which have >proven quite popular for modellers in the US. > >I would really appreciate it if Andy or any interested party would care to >scan me a suitable set of drawings. 'Til now the only info. I have are the >track engineering drawings on Rob Schoenberg's site which only give a plan >view, no elevations. >Ideally, If there is a choice of machines, I'd prefer one that was suitable >for both Lines West and East. However, if I have to go for one then Lines >West gets my vote ( we Lines West folks have to stick together :-) > >Regards, >               John H. Wright, >               Washington,   England >Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ <http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/>    and: >http://www.xclent.clara.net <http://www.xclent.clara.net> > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@insightbb.com> >To: "Ken Meyer" <knmeyer@comcast.net>; <PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com> >Cc: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com> >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:51 AM >Subject: [PRR] PRR Switch Machines -- was Thanks for the great feedback for >The Keystone Modeler > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>Has anyone ever attempted to model PRR style switch machines? The type you >>see on the Northeast Corridor. Are drawings available? >>Ken Meyer >>Bel Air, MD >> >> >> >>Ken, >> >>Can you suggest a photo in one of the Morning Sun PRR books or elsewhere >>where one of these NE Corridor switch machines can be seen? >> >>I'm no switch machine expert, but I do have a US&S Installation & >>Maintenance manual for M-3. M-23A, and M-23B Electric Switch Machines, >>    >> >dated > > >>6/53. There are plenty of drawings in there, and I can scan and post them >>to the PRR-Modeling files/photos section. >> >> >>Andy Cich >>    >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. <http://lists.dsop.com.> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=259538.3936685.5168404.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17051697 25:HM/A=1750876/R=0/SIG=11v1mrq3u/*http:/hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=17 62-1062629109228440> click here <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=259538.3936685.5168404.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=:HM/A=1750876/rand=134503838> Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! 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--------------080206080004060006060902-- --------------010006000302040807040602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:11:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks Well maybe they should try that in other citys..............got commuters back on the rail, didn't it!!!!!....................Boomer ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew S. Miller To: PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: Non-railroad construction tracks All this talk of RR access to construction sites reminds me of the time during the 70's when the Mass Port Authority here in Boston was undertaking a major construction project near Lynn MA. They solicited bids for the hauling of all the dirt to be removed from the site and ConRail put in a very competitive bid to build a line into the site and haul it all out. They lost to a local trucking company. Conrail protested when they got a chance to examine the winning bid and realized that the trucking company could not fulfill their obligations without overloading the trucks substantially beyond the limit allowed by the State. The State and the Port Authority told CR to go away and talk to someone who gave a s**t. They had their low bid. Time passes and six months later one of the severely overloaded trucks from the construction site is crossing the Mystic River Bridge (owner - the Mass Port Authority). This bridge is double decked and the truck is on the lower level. Its brakes can't hold the load, the truck goes out of control and slams into one of the supports brining the upper level down on top of the lower level. The Port Authority's bridge is closed for almost a year. Being one of only two river crossings in Boston, the City is tied in knots (rapid transit ridership goes way up :-)), and the PA wants to know who's to blame!! -- Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Yahoo! Groups Sponsor "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:05:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Passenger consist book Hi All, Like many of you I have been waiting for the PRR Passenger car consist book. I placed a pre-sale order last Sept. A recent letter states it is shipping in November. However, I saw a listing for it on Ebay this week. I did not want to email the seller in case he actually had one to sell. Has anyone seen his book? I hesitant to see the responses if anyone says yes. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger consist book From: Jerry Britton On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 09:05 PM, Bill Lane wrote: > Like many of you I have been waiting for the PRR Passenger car consist > book. > I placed a pre-sale order last Sept. A recent letter states it is > shipping > in November. However, I saw a listing for it on Ebay this week. I did > not > want to email the seller in case he actually had one to sell. > > Has anyone seen his book? I hesitant to see the responses if anyone > says > yes. I've had a dealer order in for quite some time. About six weeks ago I heard it finally was going to press. If true, it could be hitting the streets about now. My distributor had not received it as of yesterday. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:54:24 GMT Subject: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee From: PennsyRRfan List - Are these relatively accurate representations? What would be the appropriate cars on which they would have been used? Thanks in advance, Paul R. Greenwald PRRT&HS 1802 Phila Chapter 2009 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:23:28 +0000 Paul R. Greenwald asked: "Are these relatively accurate representations?" Yes. The only thing I don't like about them is the same thing afflicting almost all sprung freight car trucks: an gaping hole where the springs would completely fill up the space on the prototype. I feel that the equalization benefit of sprung trucks is largely lost under normal model car weights in HO, and use modesty panels made of black painted styrene on the inside of the sideframes to hide the gaping hole. Red Caboose and Bowser make nicely detailed 2D-F8 trucks in plastic. The best application for the Kadee trucks would be for empty hoppers, gons, or flats, as their metal construction will give you some extra weight to help the models track better. "What would be the appropriate cars on which they would have been used?" The vast majority of 50-ton cars on the Pennsy, including numerous classes such as X29, GLA, GR, GRA, GS, and FM. See Rob Schoenberg's website for truck summaries by class, and always consult photos wherever possible. http://prr.railfan.net Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:33:57 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee AFAIK they are accurate. They would appear under most 40-50t PRR cars built in the 20-30s: X29, X31 ,X32, X37, GLCA, GS, G22, etc. Another good source is Bowser who also makes the 2D-F12, the PRR signature truck with one leaf spring and one coil spring. Bowser will sell just the sideframe-bolster casting, allowing you to install semi-scale 33" wheels from IM or Reboxx. Boy do those roll! Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= PennsyRRfan wrote: > List - > > Are these relatively accurate representations? What would be the appropriate cars on which they would have been used? > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul R. Greenwald > PRRT&HS 1802 > Phila Chapter 2009 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:31:15 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: > > Red Caboose and Bowser make nicely detailed 2D-F8 trucks in plastic. The > best application for the Kadee trucks would be for empty hoppers, gons, or > flats, as their metal construction will give you some extra weight to help > the models track better. If you want weight, the Sunshine trucks are very good for that. Already been roasted once for saying I preferred them to the Kadees (I feel sprung trucks are the most overrated thing in model railroading but like your idea about the modesty curtain ), so will quit now. The Sunshine trucks do require your careful assembly to get them free rolling. I bat about three out of four on first try. Once done, they track great. My experience with Bowser trucks is that when IM wheelsets are inserted, they are among the best rolling trucks out there and bought a bunch of them to weather for my still in the box Westerfield MOW cars. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:45:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger consist book From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 08:59 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 09:05 PM, Bill Lane wrote: > >> Like many of you I have been waiting for the PRR Passenger car >> consist book. >> I placed a pre-sale order last Sept. A recent letter states it is >> shipping >> in November. However, I saw a listing for it on Ebay this week. I did >> not >> want to email the seller in case he actually had one to sell. >> >> Has anyone seen his book? I hesitant to see the responses if anyone >> says >> yes. TLC's web site shows November 8th... http://www.tlcrailroadbooks.com/cgi-bin/ tlcstore.pl?user_action=link&link=newsletter ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:50:53 +0000 Bob Zoeller wrote: If you want weight, the Sunshine trucks are very good for that. <> The Sunshine trucks do require your careful assembly to get them free rolling. Bob, thanks for mentioning the Sunshine trucks. I didn't mention them in my last post as I thought they were out of production. Does Martin still carry these, or do you have a stash of them and are holding out on me? ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:27:05 +0000 Andrew Miller wrote: "They [2D-F8] would appear under most 40-50t PRR cars built in the 20-30s: X29, X31 ,X32, X37, GLCA, GS, G22, etc." True for all car classes listed except for the Class X31 and X32 subclasses. The majority of the photographs I've seen show them riding 2D-F12 leaf/coil spring trucks, particularly cars in Automobile service. As Andy pointed out, these are readily available from Bowser in HO. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:30:22 -0400 The weigh in motion scale was between Lock Haven and Newberry Jct. The good folks at Renovo stuck temporary labels on hoppers not equipped with permanent labels. Not a howling success as you mentioned. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:01 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com; smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails Marty, The Friden FlexoWriter machine prepared punch cards at the same time as it typed train consists, waybills, switch lists and similar items. These were then read and a computer entry made that was transmitted to the mainframes at 15 N. 32nd St. in Phila. The Friden Flexowriters had nothing to do with the KarTrak system of optical scanners that were made by Sylvania and read the "ACI Labels" on the car sides. I do recall PRR installing a reader near one of the coal scales and feeding the tare weights of the unit train coal hopper fleet into the mainframe, so that when cars were read and weighed, a freight bill could automatically be prepared. Flexowriters weren't involved in this. But putting a non-labeled car in the train made it impossible to automatically render a bill! Since yard forces could not be convinced not to put a non-labeled car in a train to replace a bad ordered car, the experiment was not a howling success. ACI did not become mandatory until 1968, and by that time PRR was no more and the FlexoWriter was not adopted by the Penn Central. BTW, the clerks HATED the Flexowriter, as it was very noisy and bid off jobs requiring their use as soon as they had enough seniority, requiring someone else be train in their use! There were five in the Bay View Yard office, and you had to shout to communicate in there. Gregg Mahlkov . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Cc: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car breakdowns on Pennsy Rails In a message dated 9/29/03 10:09:27 PM, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: I went back and worked backwards into this stuff for me. I started with the traffic base, output (where I could find it), and what kind of cars they'd need, and then worked into the percentages of home vs. foreign and car types and all. I used available photos, recorded info, train info, and all, to try to calibrate it all. In the early and mid-1960s, the PRR introduced something that I seem to remember was called the Freiden Flexi-Writer. This system involved putting a bar-code adhesive label on every piece of rolling stock and setting up bar code readers at key points across the system. The bar code pick up was supposed to be able to write a consist for every train/draft that passed a given point. I don't know what happened to these train records nor to the master "book" of what labels were placed on what cars. This was an attempt to "automate" the creation of CT-???s that the Yard Masters had the Yard Clerks make of the rolling stock on a given track/siding at a given time. The Freiden records may have had a more permanent life and, if so, and they do still exist, would provide an almost absolute record of what went by a certain point in any season or time. Any one aware of an article about the Pennsy's use of this Freiden system? Do any of these records still exist? The BRAC went ballistic over Yard Clerk's work being done by a machine. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:22:11 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee They are, in fact, the trucks the Bowser X3`1,32's come with. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= b.hom@att.net wrote: > Andrew Miller wrote: > "They [2D-F8] would appear under most 40-50t PRR cars built in the 20-30s: > X29, X31 ,X32, X37, GLCA, GS, G22, etc." > > True for all car classes listed except for the Class X31 and X32 subclasses. > The majority of the photographs I've seen show them riding 2D-F12 leaf/coil > spring trucks, particularly cars in Automobile service. As Andy pointed out, > these are readily available from Bowser in HO. > > Ben Hom -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 2DF8 Trucks by Kadee Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:56:46 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: > Bob, thanks for mentioning the Sunshine trucks. I didn't mention them in my > last post as I thought they were out of production. Does Martin still carry > these, or do you have a stash of them and are holding out on me? ;-) I don't know if Martin still has them. I have about a half dozen 2DF8 and 2DF12 in storage with my X31s and X29s (I'll probably never build the X29s, but since I would only use an undec Bowser X31 to get the color right anyway, I will build the Sunshine X31s). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:25:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Varnish, --part1_102.35db8649.2c9fb79f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, Yes, it was just common varnish, but during that era it was more than common... #^) I would say if your groups feels that it needs to stretch the life of the existing paint job another five years, then you might have to varnish it twice between now and the repaint but it will do the trick. When you make the purchase check for a Urethane or Spar Varnish with a UV filter built in. It will make it last longer and you might just have to do this once. Greg --part1_102.35db8649.2c9fb79f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gary,

Yes, it was just common varnish, but during that era it was more than common= ... #^)

I would say if your groups feels that it needs to stretch the life of the ex= isting paint job another five years, then you might have to varnish it twice= between now and the repaint but it will do the trick. When you make t= he purchase check for a Urethane or Spar Varnish with a UV filter built in.=20= It will make it last longer and you might just have to do this once.

Greg --part1_102.35db8649.2c9fb79f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!