From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] Brass Items for SALE Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:48:28 -0400 People, Before listing on E-bay I would like to give everyone on the list first chance. I have the following brass engines for sale: Oriental Limited BP-20 A and B units Tuscan Red 5 gold stripes production run. Overland Models SD-9 Phase II U/P Railworks I-1s 2-10-0 w/long haul tender F/P #4248 Railworks L-1 2-8-2 F/P #597 Key I-1s 2-10-0 w/short tender F/P #4305 and lightly weathered. All pieces are new in the box except Key I-1s #4305 which was test run only. Please contact me off line at cwhary@paonline.com if interested. Charles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:22:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Various From: Jerry Britton 1st of the month ad... "Merchandise Service" has recently added a bunch of stuff to its Clearance Center. Go to http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com and click on the Clearance Center link. Among lines added: Bowser, Digitrax, Soundtraxx. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:55:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] BLI GG-1 Second thoughts I got to run my GG1 last night at the North Shore Club. They are transitioning to DCC so I got a chance to hear all the sounds. WOW! Those coupler sounds could make me abandon the mainline and just spend my model RRing time switching cars in Sunnyside! I got the G hooked to my 15 car Broadway and ran it around the layout. The good news is the brake sound is great. The bad news is it could not take the hill in our mountain division. I know, Gs never got to the mountains. But they did pull trains out of the Hudson River tunnels. I had to remove my few brass cars and reduce the train to 13 cars to make it over the entire layout. AFAIK our grades do not exceed 2%. It was disappointing for a loco that weighs as much as this one does. My Rivarossi Gs can haul this train! I would love to see if more weight can be added but I have yet to figure out how to open the shell! There are four screws, two under each nose, which appear to attach the floor to the body. Removing them was insufficient. Something is still holding the shell on.. The shell can not be spread like a Rivarossi G or an Athearn loco, because the shell is not plastic. So how do I take this loco apart. I would like to paint the wires visible in the cab when the light are on. The brightly color coded wires are ugly through the cab windows. On a more positive note, I solved the ugly-ass coupler problem. Scale Accumates with the scale draft gear box fits rather nicely after carving the two bosses under (over) the coupler pocket off. I suspect the new Kadees with scale D/G boxes would do also. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:55:26 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] BLI GG-1 Second thoughts I got to run my GG1 last night at the North Shore Club. They are transitioning to DCC so I got a chance to hear all the sounds. WOW! Those coupler sounds could make me abandon the mainline and just spend my model RRing time switching cars in Sunnyside! I got the G hooked to my 15 car Broadway and ran it around the layout. The good news is the brake sound is great. The bad news is it could not take the hill in our mountain division. I know, Gs never got to the mountains. But they did pull trains out of the Hudson River tunnels. I had to remove my few brass cars and reduce the train to 13 cars to make it over the entire layout. AFAIK our grades do not exceed 2%. It was disappointing for a loco that weighs as much as this one does. My Rivarossi Gs can haul this train! I would love to see if more weight can be added but I have yet to figure out how to open the shell! There are four screws, two under each nose, which appear to attach the floor to the body. Removing them was insufficient. Something is still holding the shell on.. The shell can not be spread like a Rivarossi G or an Athearn loco, because the shell is not plastic. So how do I take this loco apart. I would like to paint the wires visible in the cab when the light are on. The brightly color coded wires are ugly through the cab windows. On a more positive note, I solved the ugly-ass coupler problem. Scale Accumates with the scale draft gear box fits rather nicely after carving the two bosses under (over) the coupler pocket off. I suspect the new Kadees with scale D/G boxes would do also. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:27:23 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs From: PennsyRRfan Al - I would be much more interested in the hi-res CD option than in the online subscription at the current quality. It just wouldn't be worth an annual fee to see and print at such poor resolution. Paul R. Greenwald PRRT&HS 1802 Phila Chapter 2009 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:40:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs From: Jerry Britton On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:27 PM, PennsyRRfan wrote: > I would be much more interested in the hi-res CD option than in the > online subscription at the current quality. It just wouldn't be worth > an annual fee to see and print at such poor resolution. I previously expressed the same opinion privately. A drawback to the CD's however, is that you would not have searchability over the entire life of the Keystone, just the one's on the current CD. And there would be no way to add new issues to an existing search index. The only workaround would be for the Society to include an updated index on each new CD release. OR, have the master index online. It would return volume/issue references. The results listing would be used as a sales tool to sell CD's, each containing a volume or two, or to reference the CD's that the viewer has already purchased. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Removing BLI GG1 shell Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:47:20 +0000 looking at the preproduction pictures in their web site including the one of the unpainted shell and frame I think the four slots are to allow insertion of a screwdriver to pry the shell outward and unlock it from the frame. It could also be such a tight press fit that using a flat bladed screw driver in the slot could free the shell by prying it free. That could be the purpose of the indentation in the side of the frame. These are just guesses however. -- E mail me about the Chicago terminal Chapter of the PRRT&HS if you have an interest in learning more about us ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:15:39 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs From: PennsyRRfan On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:40 PM Jerry Britton wrote: >OR, have the master index online. It would return volume/issue >references. The results listing would be used as a sales tool to sell >CD's, each containing a volume or two, or to reference the CD's that >the viewer has already purchased. Jerry - I think that this is the best way to go. Even if you own all of the CD's, using the online index would tell you which one(s) have the information you are looking for. If you don't have a particular CD, you could then order it online. Paul R. Greenwald PRRT&HS 1802 Phila Chapter 2009 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:28:26 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35852.50F01620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My feelings also. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:40 PM To: PennsyRRfan Cc: abbuchan1@comcast.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:27 PM, PennsyRRfan wrote: > I would be much more interested in the hi-res CD option than in the > online subscription at the current quality. It just wouldn't be worth > an annual fee to see and print at such poor resolution. I previously expressed the same opinion privately. A drawback to the CD's however, is that you would not have searchability over the entire life of the Keystone, just the one's on the current CD. And there would be no way to add new issues to an existing search index. The only workaround would be for the Society to include an updated index on each new CD release. OR, have the master index online. It would return volume/issue references. The results listing would be used as a sales tool to sell CD's, each containing a volume or two, or to reference the CD's that the viewer has already purchased. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35852.50F01620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on = CDs

My feelings also.

Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:40 PM
To: PennsyRRfan
Cc: abbuchan1@comcast.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. = Keystone on CDs


On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:27  PM, = PennsyRRfan wrote:

> I would be much more interested in the hi-res CD = option than in the
> online subscription at the current = quality.  It just wouldn't be worth
> an annual fee to see and print at such poor = resolution.

I previously expressed the same opinion = privately.

A drawback to the CD's however, is that you would not = have
searchability over the entire life of the Keystone, = just the one's on
the current CD. And there would be no way to add new = issues to an
existing search index. The only workaround wouldāąćō= for the Society to
include an updated index on each new CD = release.

OR, have the master index online. It would return = volume/issue
references. The results listing would be used as a = sales tool to sell
CD's, each containing a volume or two, or to = reference the CD's that
the viewer has already purchased.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C35852.50F01620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] TKM, The Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:37:52 -0400 Kudos to the staff of the TKM!!!!!!!!! Great ideas, photos and articles. I am excited about what is coming up. Lew "It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." -- Al Gore, Vice President "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?" -- Lee Iacocca "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure." -- Bill Clinton, President Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through the integration of sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:05:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs As the proud user of a 56K modem that will only run at 28K because of old phone lines, I would much prefer Keystone CDs. Download time for online use is a big consideration and CDs are portable, cheap and fast. Jim McDaniel, slowly uploading in Delmarva ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:05:23 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs As the proud user of a 56K modem that will only run at 28K because of old phone lines, I would much prefer Keystone CDs. Download time for online use is a big consideration and CDs are portable, cheap and fast. Jim McDaniel, slowly uploading in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:26:41 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Address Hello, everyone, I need to get an e-mail address for Pete Forbes. If you have it, please pass it along to me off-list. TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:48:12 -0400 Jerry's solution of having the all-time index on line sounds like a good one - but it would still be desirable to have an index on each CD. With the online index, there really isn't an issue of resolution/quality - on an index we're just interested in the information in readable/printable form. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PennsyRRfan" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs > On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:27 PM, PennsyRRfan wrote: > > > I would be much more interested in the hi-res CD option than in the > > online subscription at the current quality. It just wouldn't be worth > > an annual fee to see and print at such poor resolution. > > I previously expressed the same opinion privately. > > A drawback to the CD's however, is that you would not have > searchability over the entire life of the Keystone, just the one's on > the current CD. And there would be no way to add new issues to an > existing search index. The only workaround would be for the Society to > include an updated index on each new CD release. > > OR, have the master index online. It would return volume/issue > references. The results listing would be used as a sales tool to sell > CD's, each containing a volume or two, or to reference the CD's that > the viewer has already purchased. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:50:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] For Sale--S and HO Scale PRR Buildings Greetings, I have some of the new Trainstuff resin Pennsy buildings onhand, in both HO and S scale. These are easily assembled resin kits that have the nice feature of separate window and door castings, allowing much easier painting, and have very clean castings for resin kits (or plastic, for that matter). Available are a Pennsy "Standard Tool House" and Pennsy Scale House. In HO the tool house runs $11.00 and the scale house is $13.50. First class mailing in the US is $1.75 for one building, $2.25 for both. In S scale, the tool house runs $14.50 and the scale house is $16.75. Mailing for one is $2.50, $2.85 for both. Please advise me offline if you'd be interested. Scans available if you'd like. Thanks for looking. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] TLC Publishing Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:21:23 -0400 Hi All, Has anyone RECENTLY called TLC Publishing wondering where the Passenger consist book is? I preordered it in October. I won't do that again! I last called in April stating early July as the shipping date. I have not called lately because I have been really busy at work, and am not up to possibly hearing "another 2 months because.........." Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Layout progress uploaded to web site Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:28:44 +0100 Dear all, An account of the last six months work on rebuilding my standard HO layout 'Franklinsburg' have now been uploaded to the website .... details of the trackplan, historical/geographical rationale, notes on construction etc. and some pictures of the layout emerging from the 'mess'. All being well the pages will gradually take the form of a diary, similar to those on my 'Federal Street' P87 layout. What you'll get is a 'warts 'n all' account .... if I screw up it'll be typed up:-) Please feel free to drop in from time to time. Go to http://www.xclent.clara.net Enter the site ..... then click on the 'Franklinsburg II' button. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:21:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing Hi All, Has anyone RECENTLY called TLC Publishing wondering where the Passenger consist book is? I preordered it in October. I won't do that again! I last called in April stating early July as the shipping date. I have not called lately because I have been really busy at work, and am not up to possibly hearing "another 2 months because.........." Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:33:12 -0400 Peter Tilp is running their order fullfillment operation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 6:21 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing > Hi All, > > Has anyone RECENTLY called TLC Publishing wondering where the Passenger > consist book is? I preordered it in October. I won't do that again! I last > called in April stating early July as the shipping date. I have not called > lately because I have been really busy at work, and am not up to possibly > hearing "another 2 months because.........." > > Thanks > > Bill > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark > Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:42:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing --part1_31.3c276e4b.2c5c62d9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Tilp is the guy who screwed so many on an earlier pre-pub offer for a passenger car book, then threatened to sue PRRT&HS if they told anyone about it. I hope I get the consist book that I pre-ordered! --part1_31.3c276e4b.2c5c62d9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Tilp is the guy who screwed so many on an earlie= r pre-pub offer for a passenger car book, then threatened to sue PRRT&HS= if they told anyone about it.  I hope I get the consist book that I pr= e-ordered! --part1_31.3c276e4b.2c5c62d9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:42:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout progress uploaded to web site --- "John H. Wright" wrote: > An account of the last six months work on rebuilding my standard HO > layout > 'Franklinsburg' have now been uploaded to the website .... > All being well the pages will gradually take the form of a diary, > similar to > those on my 'Federal Street' P87 layout. What you'll get is a > 'warts 'n > all' account .... Speaking of warts, have there been any further developments on Federal Street, after the feline catastrophe? I'm wondering if the damage was as bad as, worse than, or not as bad as at first thought? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:33:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing Peter Tilp is running their order fullfillment operation. > Hi All, > > Has anyone RECENTLY called TLC Publishing wondering where the Passenger > consist book is? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone Online vs. Keystone on CDs Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:46:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C3590D.38AFD440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's an exciting time to be a PRR modeler!!! The Keystone Modeler looks = fantastic as did the Keystone e-news: very professionally done. The = photo on the cover of TKM just about took my breath away when it came up = on my screen. My 2-cents on the Keystone CD's: I agree with Jerry that = an online searchable index of the Keystone with the individual CD's for = sale is the way to go.=20 Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C3590D.38AFD440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's an exciting time to be a PRR = modeler!!! The=20 Keystone Modeler looks fantastic as did the Keystone e-news: very = professionally=20 done.  The photo on the cover of TKM just about took my breath = away=20 when it came up on my screen. My 2-cents on the Keystone CD's: I agree = with=20 Jerry that an online searchable index of the Keystone with the = individual CD's=20 for sale is the way to go.
 
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS = #6703
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C3590D.38AFD440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Comcast Mail" Subject: [PRR] VO-1000 (BS10) Horn. Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:05:19 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35918.409CA240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, Just finished off and dullcoted a Stewart VO-1000 and was wondering if = anybody had any info as to horn placement. Maybe a photo or something. = This loco is numbered PRR 5913. Doug (OH) ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35918.409CA240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,
 
Just finished off and dullcoted a = Stewart VO-1000=20 and was wondering if anybody had any info as to horn placement.  = Maybe a=20 photo or something.  This loco is numbered PRR 5913.
 
Doug (OH)
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C35918.409CA240-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:07:00 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing Bill, and others waiting for the Pennsy pasenger car book from TLC Publishing, TLC is noted for long lead times from announcements to publication. I don't know that they have ever failed to deliver on a book once they announce it. They may be slow, but they take forever. Andrew Harmantas, reading books from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] #9957 List, Quick question. Anyone have the Edson's Steam Roster Book handy? Need to know which loco(s) carried road number 9957. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] #9957 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:40:30 -0400 Mr. Edson says it was an H8c, built by Alco. Construction number 48799 built 2/11 converted 7/19 to H10s. Sold for scrap 11/55 Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:18 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] #9957 List, Quick question. Anyone have the Edson's Steam Roster Book handy? Need to know which loco(s) carried road number 9957. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Tracking #: 5D93FACFC21A3C43B75AE634B2993ED9613CD34D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:57:21 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] #9957 Gary: It was built by Alco (!) as an H8c in February 1911, c/n 48799, converted to an H10s in July 1919 and dropped from the roster in 1950. According to Edson, no other PRR locomotive carried this road number. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Gary Mittner wrote: >List, > > Quick question. Anyone have the Edson's Steam Roster Book handy? >Need to know which loco(s) carried road number 9957. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:59:11 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] #9957, cx Wayne is correct on disposition, 11/55. Wayne S. Betty wrote: >Mr. Edson says it was an H8c, built by Alco. Construction number 48799 built >2/11 converted 7/19 to H10s. Sold for scrap 11/55 > >Cos >Wayne S. Betty >Cos Communications, Inc. >Small business IT services. > >Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road >NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 >NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 >http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm >at the west end of the PRR electrified zone > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gary Mittner >Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:18 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] #9957 > >List, > > Quick question. Anyone have the Edson's Steam Roster Book handy? >Need to know which loco(s) carried road number 9957. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >Tracking #: 5D93FACFC21A3C43B75AE634B2993ED9613CD34D > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] #9957 List, Thanks for the info. The reason I asked is I spotted a PRR Bell this morning in, of all places, a roadside Flea Market in Florida. This was just the Bell, no cradle. 2 Loco numbers stamped in it. 5735 (a G5s) and 9957 (Now I know, an H8 later H10). Too expensive for me but is anyone interested in it? Contact me off list and I will let you know who to call.....Thanks again, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SMuel10363@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:38:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/03/03 --part1_16a.2232079f.2c5eccc8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is there a list that shows how many of each class of cars thar were made? ray mueller --part1_16a.2232079f.2c5eccc8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable is there a list that shows how many of each class of c= ars thar were made? ray mueller --part1_16a.2232079f.2c5eccc8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] "Commonwealth trucks" Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:20:21 -0400 guys, In wisiting my local hobby shop, I discovered 5 sets of Roundhouse Commonwealth passanger trucks in new wrappings. Remembering a previous discussion here of about a year ago(?), I figured I would tip those off who desired said trucks for their P70 cars(Eastern Car Works). Does this mean that they are available once again? Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger paint Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:38:19 -0400 Does anyone know what Model-Flex or Pollyscale color matches the new Walther's smooth side PRR passenger cars in postwar paint? Thanks. Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] PRR in 1954 CD-ROM Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:17:12 -0400 Nice endorsement from Tony the K in the newest Model Railroader about Jerry's latest CD-ROM. Since he's a modeler of American standard-gauge mainline railroading in the 50's, Tony's a Pennsy modeler as well as an NKP modeler. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:26:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in 1954 CD-ROM From: Jerry Britton On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 10:17 AM, Doug Drew wrote: > Nice endorsement from Tony the K in the newest Model Railroader > about Jerry's latest CD-ROM. > > Since he's a modeler of American standard-gauge mainline railroading > in the 50's, Tony's a Pennsy modeler as well as an NKP modeler. I was rather "floored" myself when I saw it! Tony called me about the product, and we had several conversations following. I figured it would end up a "typical" product announcement buried in the text of the MR News column. I also figured I had missed it since it was over six months ago that we discussed it. Needless to say I was quite pleased to see it got a headline and a photo. For those who didn't see it, I think it was page 35 or so in the new issue of Model Railroader. And, yes, Tony has found some PRR items of note via the CD. His NKP is coming along and I am currently working on his official web site, which includes a discussion forum. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:13:14 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Commonwealth trucks" The "Commonwealth" trucks are appropriate for the P70 FBr's only. These are the post war rebuilds with the porthole annex window. All other P70 variants had the "Pennsy Roller Bearing" truck which ,AFAIK, is still out of production :-(( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Walter Prusick wrote: > guys, > In wisiting my local hobby shop, I discovered 5 sets of Roundhouse > Commonwealth passanger trucks in new wrappings. Remembering a previous > discussion here of about a year ago(?), I figured I would tip those off who > desired said trucks for their P70 cars(Eastern Car Works). Does this mean > that they are available once again? > > Walt Prusick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] NJ Transit announces changes to incident response protocols Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:29:29 +0000 This was on Trains.com web site today. Is NJT really running trains without radiosor am I missing something? NEWARK, N.J. – Following a month plagued with extensive train delays and inconvenience to thousands of customers, including severe thunderstorms, power outages, trespasser fatalities, downed overhead electric catenary wires, and a train derailment, a 22-member task force was created to review passenger carrier NJ Transit’s response to major incidents. The task force, which included representatives from the two major unions, United Transportation Union and Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, issued a number of recommendations, including: Stopping the first available train to the incident to rescue passengers Equipping trains and stations with bullhorns Establishing new crew size standards for 8-, 10- and 12-car trains Creating regional six-to-eight member “Go Teams” of NJ Transit managers who will be immediately deployed to incidents Equipping all train crews with radios to keep passengers better informed Displaying emergency procedures on all trains, with accompanying panel cards available at major terminals and stations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Blackhawk" Subject: RE: [PRR] NJ Transit announces changes to incident response Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:58:07 -0700 Someone asked: This was on Trains.com web site today. Is NJT really running trains without radiosor am I missing something? ------ I think if you add the word "members" below, it makes more sense. Certainly the trains themselves have radios. However equipping all crew members with portables allows them to use the intercom to inform passengers of the reason for a delay, or to inform the conductor of a situation remotely. "...Equipping all train crew [MEMBERS] with radios to keep passengers better informed..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ Transit announces changes to incident response Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:12:19 -0400 I think I read elsewhere that not all crew members have radios. All trains do but not all crew. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:29 PM Subject: [PRR] NJ Transit E´unces changes to incident response protocols > This was on Trains.com web site today. Is NJT really running trains without > radiosor am I missing something? > > NEWARK, N.J. - Following a month plagued with extensive train delays and > inconvenience to thousands of customers, including severe thunderstorms, > power outages, trespasser fatalities, downed overhead electric catenary > wires, and a train derailment, a 22-member task force was created to review > passenger carrier NJ Transit's response to major incidents. > > The task force, which included representatives from the two major unions, > United Transportation Union and Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, issued a > number of recommendations, including: > > Stopping the first available train to the incident to rescue passengers > Equipping trains and stations with bullhorns > Establishing new crew size standards for 8-, 10- and 12-car trains > Creating regional six-to-eight member "Go Teams" of NJ Transit managers who > will be immediately deployed to incidents > Equipping all train crews with radios to keep passengers better informed > Displaying emergency procedures on all trains, with accompanying panel cards > available at major terminals and stations. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:57:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Thompson Subject: [PRR] Furnace (WH?) Tower in East Altoona --0-477753017-1060045024=:65171 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anybody on the list know anything about Furnace tower in East Altoona? I'm looking for photos of the tower. Thanks -- Keith Thompson --0-477753017-1060045024=:65171 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Does anybody on the list know anything about Furnace tower in East Altoona? I'm looking for photos of the tower. Thanks -- Keith Thompson
--0-477753017-1060045024=:65171-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:07:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Furnace (WH?) Tower in East Altoona From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 08:57 PM, Keith Thompson wrote: > Does anybody on the list know anything about Furnace tower in East > Altoona? I'm looking for photos of the tower. Thanks -- Keith Thompson Don't know about "east Altoona", but just east of Altoona, more specifically, just east of Tyrone there was "Union Furnace" block station. We're talking about 15 miles from downtown Altoona. Don't know if that is what you are referring to or not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:24:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Thompson Subject: Re: [PRR] Furnace (WH?) Tower in East Altoona --0-140862446-1060046665=:40453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Jerry but I'm looking for the interlocking tower just to the south of the East Altoona passenger station between the westbound loaded receiving and classification yards. It's referenced in a track diagram in "Triumph IV" on page 225. You can also see it referenced in the big map of Altoona in the same book. No photos though. Thanks again! -- kt Jerry@Pennsy, UNEXPECTED_DATA_AFTER_ADDRESS@.SYNTAX-ERROR. wrote: On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 08:57 PM, Keith Thompson wrote: > Does anybody on the list know anything about Furnace tower in East > Altoona? I'm looking for photos of the tower. Thanks -- Keith Thompson Don't know about "east Altoona", but just east of Altoona, more specifically, just east of Tyrone there was "Union Furnace" block station. We're talking about 15 miles from downtown Altoona. Don't know if that is what you are referring to or not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com --0-140862446-1060046665=:40453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks Jerry but I'm looking for the interlocking tower just to the south of the East Altoona passenger station between the westbound loaded receiving and classification yards. It's referenced in a track diagram in "Triumph IV" on page 225. You can also see it referenced in the big map of Altoona in the same book. No photos though. Thanks again! -- kt

Jerry@Pennsy, UNEXPECTED_DATA_AFTER_ADDRESS@.SYNTAX-ERROR. wrote:
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 08:57 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:

> Does anybody on the list know anything about Furnace tower in East
> Altoona? I'm looking for photos of the tower. Thanks -- Keith Thompson

Don't know about "east Altoona", but just east of Altoona, more
specifically, just east of Tyrone there was "Union Furnace" block
station. We're talking about 15 miles from downtown Altoona. Don't know
if that is what you are referring to or not.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
--0-140862446-1060046665=:40453-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:01:14 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: [PRR] Online vs. CD-Rom and the future of the Keystone Hi Al- Thanks for all your good work on this (and so many other) PRR history project. I've always enjoyed the old-fashioned hardcopy Keystones and I would vote for reprints a la Phila Chapter High Line (and more recently through the kind offices of President Dick Adams) but as that was not one of the choices your note proffered ...here is some quick feedback for you guys at PRRTHS HQ. I, too, had trouble with the picture quality online. I have second generation xeroxes that look better. Could the site be reformatted to make the pictures each fill a screen? Is the resolution even there to be accessed? Others with more sophisticated computer skills may have had more success than I. Alot of people have basic computer skills but will not really want to master Adobe or Photoshop's latest version just to look up a photo reference for a model on the workbench (that old hardcopy is real easy, there!) While I don't really know about the probability of alot of members or non-members maintaining a paid online annual subscription in case they want to look something up (and the requisite billing headaches at your end;) I do know that in my eighteen years as a retailer, it was alot easier to sell someone a bunch of good stuff when they were in the store than to get 'em to remember that good experience and come back next Christmas. I suspect many people would buy large, cost effective blocks of old Keystones on CD-Rom (modelers and rail historians tend to be collectors (hoarders?) by their nature) to fill out or replace their library as so many old issues are impossible to find - IF - and here is the key - the society can demonstrate the CD-Roms' photo quality and ease of use is better than what we use now. That means better picture quality and flexibility; reformatted, modernized content where necessary and available; and thorough, convenient indexing with updated cross-references in a cost-effective package. Tall order. Those who do buy might then release some old, now surplus, hardcopy issues back into circulation to help those not ready to convert to computer research tools to fill out their back issue files. Furthermore, if the Society could maintain a free updated online index referencing both the magazines and ROM data locations - and print on paper and CD and sell copies of that index for those without easy computer access at the annual meeting or through back of Keystone, and also at hobby shops and through the popular hobby press to help defray index costs - we would have a selling tool for both members who have not yet bought the CDs and for non-members looking for PRR info. After all, attracting new members should be a primary goal for our aging group if we hope to be around (and viable) in coming decades. Also, selling a CD now puts the money in the board's hands rather than hoping people keep paying online each year down the road. Or maybe offer both online and on CD-Rom, if it is not too much extra work for the board. Which brings me to the second part of my letter. The Keystone is my favourite publication of the thirty-five or so to which I subscribe each year - because I love the Pennsy. But I fear that excluding modeling from our society organ is not a constructive way to treat the problem of a shrinking membership and the difficulty in getting younger people to join and then renew their memberships. Modelers ought to be as closely embraced as those who love N2sa, Brooklyn subways, 19th century dining car china, Pennsy airplanes, catenary pole variations, and the Camden and Amboy's stone sleepers have been. The Snapper has been a favourite part of the quarterly experience for me over the decades and it provides a natural place for PRR modeling info to spring forth from; but it's recent de-emphasis and subsequent exiling of oft-requested modeling topics, articles, reviews and forums to on-line-only status is troubling. I had hoped the publication of Chuck Cover's interesting NX23 kitbashing article was a positive turning point...were there instead great cries of anguish from some quarter of the membership I am out of touch with? If the plan is to grow the group, expand interest in the PRR, share our love for the history with a wider, younger audience; the best way to do so is by increasing our appeal to those who also model the PRR, whether their primary road of interest or not, and provide them with a product that is more inclusive, attractive, useful and timely in nature rather than turn them away to the web. If a fellow hobbyist who models the SP, Erie or NYC picks up an issue in a hobbyshop or through an online information reference because it contains an article on modeling mill gons, or painting cross-country 10-6 sleepers they have need for in interchange, likes the publication and sends in dues for next year - that is a big win for everyone! Not only will he/she join our fellowship and help to accelerate all of our journey toward the understanding and love of PRR history by their subscription dollars, but also hopefully through eventual contribution by active participation. Every Keystone issue should thus be a powerful evangelical instrument containing something for everyone, an invitation to anyone interested in any facet of railroading to join our fellowship and to support the working end of the Society with their ideas, articles, pictures a™– ×ithes. Otherwise, by our maintaining and projecting a rigid, exclusive, divisive, and frankly outdated, philosphy of straight history only; we stand to alienate a large block of the current and potential future generations of membership and risk the very future of the Society and its noble mission of gathering, keeping, and promoting the history and preservation of all things PRR. I know this has been at issue since I joined the group in the 70's and in that time Mr. Blardone and other dedicated officers and contributors have continued to maintain the best publication in the field. I know the proverbial dead horse has been beaten senseless only very recently at meetings and in online forums but we must not lose sight of the goal: Increase the membership ranks by broadening interest or continue to see costs and dues rise, forcing more members to give up and spend their shrinking renewal dollars elsewhere. Thanks again. Owen Thorne Member#2461, PhilaChap#1176. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] PRR loco lettering drawings Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:59:27 -0500 Pennsy Journal published many locomotive lettering diagrams during its run. Specifically, Vol 1 #1 had passenger sharks, Vol 1 #2 had PAs, Vol 1 #4 had F3s, and Vol 2 #4 had F7s. All four of these issues referenced PRR tracing # C-15477 for 8" numerals and C-97662 and C-97663 for 8" letters. I am interested in purchasing photocopies of C-15477, C-97662, & C-97663. If anybody has these drawings and is willing to copy them for me, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Alternatively, if anybody has originals they'd be willing to part with, I'm interested too. Thank you, Andy Cich P.S. PRRT&HS microfilm generally has pre-1950 drawings, so I have not tried asking them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Online vs. CD-Rom and the future of the Keystone Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:09:28 -0400 Owen, et al: Your comments were extremely thought provoking. I tend to agree with your analysis of the trends for the future. ANYTHING that attracts new people to be card-carrying-members is a good thing! I noticed that my son's interest in the Sante Fe RR led him to the Sante Fe Historical society many years ago. Somewhere along the line, the historical focus of the group was replaced by the focus of the modelers. These modelers are still avid historians, but as a means to an end. The Sante Fe group has survived and, more importantly, it has grown and continues to produce a credible magazine. Perhaps we need to look closely at this approach for the survival of the PRRT&HS as a viable society. In the under 40 group, the probability is that there are more hobbyists out there than historians. The group under 40 has not been exposed to the sulpherous smell of a straining T1 or the ozone of the P5 breaking ice on winter wires or have treasured elongated pennies squashed under the wheels of an A5 while shunting in city streets. None the less, this group is as avid as the "old-timers" in their search for historical accuracy. The under 40 group has an entirely different milieu from which springs their interest in things PRR. This is neither good nor bad, appropriate or not, it just is. The old adage says "let your light shine". Some people tend to interpret that to mean that if your light is outshined by another's light, that it is OK to cover the other light to make yours look brighter. I think there is room in the society and magazine for both philosophies: scale modeling and history. For many of us, we would be hard pressed to make a choice between one or the other. Lew PRRT&HS #6107 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Thorne" To: ; "Modeling, PRR" ; "Talk, PRR" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:01 AM Subject: [PRR] Online vs. CD-Rom and the future of the Keystone > Hi Al- > Thanks for all your good work on this (and so many other) PRR history > project. I've always enjoyed the old-fashioned hardcopy Keystones and I > would vote for reprints a la Phila Chapter High Line (and more recently > through the kind H›ces of President Dick Adams) but as that was not > one of the choices your note proffered ...here is some quick feedback > for you guys at PRRTHS HQ. > I, too, had trouble with the picture quality online. I have second > generation xeroxes that look better. Could the site be reformatted to > make the pictures each fill a screen? Is the resolution even there to be > accessed? Others with more sophisticated computer skills may have had > more success than I. Alot of people have basic computer skills but will > not really want to master Adobe or Photoshop's latest version just to > look up a photo reference for a model on the workbench (that old > hardcopy is real easy, there!) While I don't really know about the > probability of alot of members or non-members maintaining a paid online > annual subscription in case they want to look something up (and the > requisite billing headaches at your end;) I do know that in my eighteen > years as a retailer, it was alot easier to sell someone a bunch of good > stuff when they were in the store than to get 'em to remember that good > experience and come back next Christmas. I suspect many people would buy > large, cost effective blocks of old Keystones on CD-Rom (modelers and > rail historians tend to be collectors (hoarders?) by their nature) to > fill out or replace their library as so many old issues are impossible > to find - IF - and here is the key - the society can demonstrate the > CD-Roms' photo quality and ease of use is better than what we use now. > That means better picture quality and flexibility; reformatted, > modernized content where necessary and available; and thorough, > convenient indexing with updated cross-references in a cost-effective > package. Tall order. Those who do buy might then release some old, now > surplus, hardcopy issues back into circulation to help those not ready > to convert to computer research tools to fill out their back issue > files. > Furthermore, if the Society could maintain a free updated online index > referencing both the magazines and ROM data locations - and print on > paper and CD and sell copies of that index for those without easy > computer access at the annual meeting or through back of Keystone, and > also at hobby shops and through the popular hobby press to help defray > index costs - we would have a selling tool for both members who have not > yet bought the CDs and for non-members looking for PRR info. After all, > attracting new members should be a primary goal for our aging group if > we hope to be around (and viable) in coming decades. Also, selling a CD > now puts the money in the board's hands rather than hoping people keep > paying online each year down the road. > Or maybe offer both online and on CD-Rom, if it is not too much extra > work for the board. Which brings me to the second part of my letter. > The Keystone is my favourite publication of the thirty-five or so to > which I subscribe each year - because I love the Pennsy. But I fear > that excluding modeling from our society organ is not a constructive way > to treat the problem of a shrinking membership and the difficulty in > getting younger people to join and then renew their memberships. > Modelers ought to be as closely embraced as those who love N2sa, > Brooklyn subways, 19th century dining car china, Pennsy airplanes, > catenary pole variations, and the Camden and Amboy's stone sleepers have > been. > The Snapper has been a favourite part of the quarterly experience for > me over the decades and it provides a natural place for PRR modeling > info to spring forth from; but it's recent de-emphasis and subsequent > exiling of oft-requested modeling topics, articles, reviews and forums > to on-line-only status is troubling. I had hoped the publication of > Chuck Cover's interesting NX23 kitbashing article was a positive turning > point...were there instead great cries of anguish from some quarter of > the membership I am out of touch with? If the plan is to grow the group, > expand interest in the PRR, share our love for the history with a wider, > younger audience; the best way to do so is by increasing our appeal to > those who also model the PRR, whether their primary road of interest or > not, and provide them with a product that is more inclusive, attractive, > useful and timely in nature rather than turn them away to the web. If a > fellow hobbyist who models the SP, Erie or NYC picks up an issue in a > hobbyshop or through an online information reference because it contains > an article on modeling mill gons, or painting cross-country 10-6 > sleepers they have need for in interchange, likes the publication and > sends in dues for next year - that is a big win for everyone! Not only > will he/she join our fellowship and help to accelerate all of our > journey toward the understanding and love of PRR history by their > subscription dollars, but also hopefully through eventual contribution > by active participation. Every Keystone issue should thus be a powerful > evangelical instrument containing something for everyone, an invitation > to anyone interested in any facet of railroading to join our fellowship > and to support the working end of the Society with their ideas, > articles, pictures and tithes. Otherwise, by our maintaining and > projecting a rigid, exclusive, divisive, and frankly outdated, philosphy > of straight history only; we stand to alienate a large block of the > current and potential future generations of membership and risk the very > future of the Society and its noble mission of gathering, keeping, and > promoting the history and preservation of all things PRR. > I know this has been at issue since I joined the group in the 70's and > in that time Mr. Blardone and other dedicated officers and contributors > have continued to maintain the best publication in the field. I know the > proverbial dead horse has been beaten senseless only very recently at > meetings and in online forums but we must not lose sight of the goal: > Increase the membership ranks by broadening interest or continue to see > costs and dues rise, forcing more members to give up and spend their > shrinking renewal dollars elsewhere. Thanks again. > Owen Thorne > Member#2461, PhilaChap#1176. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] Online vs. CD-Rom and the future of the Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:48:03 -0400 RE: Owen Thorne's comments " But I fear that excluding modeling from our society organ is not a constructive way to treat the problem of a shrinking membership and the difficulty in getting younger people to join and then renew their memberships. Modelers ought to be as closely embraced ....... The Snapper has been a favourite part of the quarterly experience for me over the decades and it provides a natural place for PRR modeling info to spring forth from; but it's recent de-emphasis and subsequent exiling of oft-requested modeling topics, articles, reviews and forums to on-line-only status is troubling. The Society has recognized the need for providing more information to the PRR modeler. The publication of "The Snapper," which amounted to only a couple of pages every quarter, was inadequate. To more adequately address the modeling issue a modeling committee has be formed and we have launched a new online monthly magazine "The Keystone Modeler," The rational for its birth was expressed in both the July edition of "The Keystone e-NEWS" and the August (first) edition of "The Keystone Modeler" (TKM). There will also be a similar statement in the autumn "Keystone," and there will be no more modeling information in "The Keystone." The core of this rationale as stated in the first edition of TKM is - Technical and historical information about the PRR is definitive or completed (as best we know it), and is best documented in a permanent printed publication such as "The Keystone." On the other hand, modeling information is generally short-lived, in that it is constantly changing and in need of periodic updates based on new and better products and techniques. Therefore, modeling information is better suited to an environment where additions and changes can be made and updated to keep up with state of the art modeling. As a result, we are establishing this new online modeling magazine, "The Keystone Modeler" (TKM), to announce and review new PRR products and present articles of interest about PRR modeling. If you do not now receive TKM send a blank e-mail to: Or visit our website www.prrths.com to view it. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul and Dot" Subject: [PRR] NX23 Kitbash Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:08:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C35B39.885D8680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am interested in finding the article mentioned in the email from Owen = Thorne that was done by Chuck Cover concerning the kitbash of the NX23. = I have an older copy of an article about this particular piece of = equipment. With the release of the Westerfield kit of the X23, this = should be a fairly easy kitbash. I would be specifically looking for the = porthole windows and the bay windows. Thanks in advance. Paul ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C35B39.885D8680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am interested in finding the article mentioned in = the email=20 from Owen Thorne that was done by Chuck Cover concerning the kitbash of = the=20 NX23. I have an older copy of an article about this particular piece of=20 equipment. With the release of the Westerfield kit of the X23, this = should be a=20 fairly easy kitbash. I would be specifically looking for the porthole = windows=20 and the bay windows.
Thanks in advance.
Paul
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C35B39.885D8680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NX23 Kitbash Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:31:07 +0000 Paul wrote: With the release of the Westerfield kit of the X23, this should be a fairly easy kitbash. I would be specifically looking for the porthole windows and the bay windows. Just a couple of pitfalls to watch out for with the Westerfield kit (through no fault with the kit's accuracy whatsoever): - Find a prototype which kept the vertical sheathing of the as-built boxcar. Some boxcars and cabins received horizontal sheathing and had bracing removed over the years. Here's a cabin that fits the bill from Rob's website: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=NX23_Urbana% 20caboose_KenDavis.JPG&fr=clNX23 - One-piece resin bodies tend to be thicker due to the casting process - something to take into account when planning for doors and windows. Of course, if I do one of these kitbashes, the Rail Classics model that I reserved will finally show up...I'd also be interetd in a copy of the article if one turns up! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:59:35 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] NX23 Kitbash Paul & list- Chuck Cover's article on NX23 appeared in Keystone, v.35, #2, Summer 2002, p.5-6. As part of 'The Snapper' section, it does not appear on the cover, or in the table of contents, and is thus difficult to find when needed. This causes anyone wishing to refer to a previosly published modeling reference, current news item, book or product review, or letter to page through every issue in the stack! Let's hope any online or CD-Rom indexing project addresses this continuing problem as well as that of the oft-mentioned photo cross-referencing. Thanks, Owen Thorne ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:47:21 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] South Fork Branch track chart Does anyone have a copy of an early to mid 50's track chart of the South Fork branch and the associated branches which arise for it who would be willing to copy it for me? I am willing to pay for the copy and shipping. I need this for modeling purposes. Please contact me off list. Thanks. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:07:08 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR loco lettering drawings Andy, This might not go through to PRR-FAX because I signed off that list, so if you could forward it I would appreciate it. > Pennsy Journal published many locomotive lettering diagrams during its run. Specifically, Vol 1 #1 had passenger sharks, Vol 1 #2 had PAs, Vol 1 #4 had F3s, and Vol 2 #4 had F7s.< Correct! > All four of these issues referenced PRR tracing # C-15477 for 8" numerals and C-97662 and C-97663 for 8" letters.< Ditto > I am interested in purchasing photocopies of C-15477, C-97662, & C-97663. If anybody has these drawings and is willing to copy them for me, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Alternatively, if anybody has originals they'd be willing to part with, I'm interested too.< You can contact my brother Ed Martin who, I believe, has all teh copies plus the FP-7's as well. (ELM2@alo.com)Ed was a very close freind of Bob Reid. Also, the original EMD drawings were domnated to the NMRA in Chattanooga by Bruce Meyer (Ex EMD marketing) several years back. you might remember the drawings and article he had presented in AMinline Modeler in the early 80's, albeit they never got around to doing the PRR subjects. You might search there if you would like the EMD presentation of the drawings. > Thank you, > Andy Cich > P.S. PRRT&HS microfilm generally has pre-1950 drawings, so I have not tried asking them.< Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Modeling and the "under 40 group" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:14:46 -0400 Hi All, Having just turned 41 last week, I almost fit in the "under 40" group. I have been a member of the Phila. Chapter & National for about 12 years now. I was on the younger side when I joined, and based on what I have seen at every convention since 1988, am still on the younger side of the membership age scale. MODELING the PRR is the only way I can experience the PRR first hand! My only memories of the PRR are seeing a GG1 & E44 once or twice on family trips to the Philadelphia area. I was still running my American Flyer at that point, about to transition into my HO period. It has been discussed MANY times that seeing something that was genuine PRR roll down the rails is a rare sight indeed. The Levin's trains are about the only thing going now. The K4 will be coming at some point. I DO consider myself to be a PRR Historian and researcher. Anyone who has amassed a collection of 1200 PRR Builders Photos and hundreds of PRR construction drawings in 8 years may be a needed information source in the future. I have done this to make my MODELS as accurate as possible. Evolve! It is not that painful. The PRR T &HS is taking steps for the future by embracing modeling. I have wondered MANY times about the viability of the Society, the Keystone, and holding large events like the Annual Meeting in 20 years from now. Realize and appreciate the gifts that you are getting now from people like Chuck Blardone and Al Buchan. It is not going to be forever folks! I believe the saying that 5% of the people do 95% of the work is not far off when it comes to volunteer organizations! The Santa Fe Society was recently mentioned in a post. The difference here is that the Santa Fe still exists today in a modified version. The PRR has been gone for over 30 years now, with the main era of interest at 45+ years. I believe this to be a significant different. People need to be exposed to something in everyday live to make them aware of its existence. I am very confidant that Al Buchan will successfully bring the society into the computer age. Rant over. I have to go to work now! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:14:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Modeling and the "under 40 group" Hi All, Having just turned 41 last week, I almost fit in the "under 40" group. I have been a member of the Phila. Chapter & National for about 12 years now. I was on the younger side when I joined, and based on what I have seen at every convention since 1988, am still on the younger side of the membership age scale. MODELING the PRR is the only way I can experience the PRR first hand! My only memories of the PRR are seeing a GG1 & E44 once or twice on family trips to the Philadelphia area. I was still running my American Flyer at that point, about to transition into my HO period. It has been discussed MANY times that seeing something that was genuine PRR roll down the rails is a rare sight indeed. The Levin's trains are about the only thing going now. The K4 will be coming at some point. I DO consider myself to be a PRR Historian and researcher. Anyone who has amassed a collection of 1200 PRR Builders Photos and hundreds of PRR construction drawings in 8 years may be a needed information source in the future. I have done this to make my MODELS as accurate as possible. Evolve! It is not that painful. The PRR T &HS is taking steps for the future by embracing modeling. I have wondered MANY times about the viability of the Society, the Keystone, and holding large events like the Annual Meeting in 20 years from now. Realize and appreciate the gifts that you are getting now from people like Chuck Blardone and Al Buchan. It is not going to be forever folks! I believe the saying that 5% of the people do 95% of the work is not far off when it comes to volunteer organizations! The Santa Fe Society was recently mentioned in a post. The difference here is that the Santa Fe still exists today in a modif¯‚ ×version. The PRR has been gone for over 30 years now, with the main era of interest at 45+ years. I believe this to be a significant different. People need to be exposed to something in everyday live to make them aware of its existence. I am very confidant that Al Buchan will successfully bring the society into the computer age. Rant over. I have to go to work now! Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 Bill & List.... I often wonder how many of the 'new generation" railfans will join the PRRT&HS. I don't see many members that are under 30 years of age. Today's youth see the PRR as just an old railroad from the past. Growing up the the late 1960s/early 70s with the Penn Central, there was still a connection with the PRR. Hundreds of cars still marked "PRR". GG1s and E44s still running. Lots of first gen diesels still running. Today, there is no connection to the past when you look at Norfolk Southern or CSX. Only the restored PRR E8s give us a link to the past. I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be a much smaller group? Just my two cents worth. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:17:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! From: Jerry Britton Varnish modelers rejoice! The Des Plaines Hobbies P85's have been available in kit form in N scale for nearly two years. It's been known that ready to run cars, via InterMountain have been coming. It's also been speculated that HO ready to run cars would also be coming, eventually, via InterMountain. I got a call from InterMountain last week and was told that the N scale cars should arrive in early September and the HO cars in late September. I have not yet received my dealer memo for August, but I suspect the N scale cars will be on it, as the HO cars are now list on the "future releases" page whereas the N scale cars are not, and they are supposed to arrive first! Here's the link to IM's "future releases" page... http://www.intermountain-railway.com/newscomingsoon.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:25:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 08:16 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > I often wonder how many of the 'new generation" railfans will > join the PRRT&HS. I don't see many members that are under 30 years of > age. Today's youth see the PRR as just an old railroad from the past. Most (IMHO) of our future young members will be modelers seeking prototype information. If that assumption pans out as correct, may I suggest: * During the annual fall open houses in southeast PA/south NJ/north DE (80 or so layouts) that are hosted by Society members, that they put out PRRT&HS materials; * That we, as a Society, promote a national open house weekend of PRR layouts and encourage children (of a reasonable age) to attend with parents. Perhaps age 10 and older or so (though my five year old runs Digitrax/Soundtraxx quite well!). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 08:30:47 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! Varnish collectors might rejoice, but varnish modelers want to know when The HO kits will be available. I don't like paying some Chinese person to enjoy my hobby for me! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > Varnish modelers rejoice! > > The Des Plaines Hobbies P85's have been available in kit form in N > scale for nearly two years. It's been known that ready to run cars, via > InterMountain have been coming. It's also been speculated that HO ready > to run cars would also be coming, eventually, via InterMountain. > > I got a call from InterMountain last week and was told that the N scale > cars should arrive in early September and the HO cars in late September. > > I have not yet received my dealer memo for August, but I suspect the N > scale cars will be on it, as the HO cars are now list on the "future > releases" page whereas the N scale cars are not, and they are supposed > to arrive first! > > Here's the link to IM's "future releases" page... > > http://www.intermountain-railway.com/newscomingsoon.html > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:46:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 08:30 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Varnish collectors might rejoice, but varnish modelers want to know > when The > HO kits will be available. I don't like paying some Chinese person to > enjoy > my hobby for me! I don't think you'll ever see them. I'm told from sources within IM and DPH that ready-to-run is what the market wants. IM's stock of kits has dwindled to nearly nothing. Red Caboose is doing the same thing. My own stock of kits (IM and Red Caboose) has barely moved in two years. I quit ordering kits. I'll special order if someone wants them and they are available, but they are no longer worth the overhead to keep in stock. The down side of R2R is that they are not openly available. They are "limited release". Each month companies like InterMountain, Red Caboose, Micro-Trains, etc., will announce what they are running. If you want an offering, you'd better reserve, cause over half of the products are sold out by the time they arrive. The balance goes into the warehouse, but rarely lasts for more than a few months. Good news is that re-runs are done with new road numbers fairly frequently on the most popular cars. IM has some cars that have been released in over 80 road numbers! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Modeling and the "under 40 group" (long) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:56 -0500 I have been a strong objector to modeling in the Keystone. The article on the NX23 was for all intents and purposes obsolete the day it was published (please, no slur intended on the modeling and writing skills of the builder) , based as it was on obscure kit parts of a different generation of tooling. The introduction of the Westerfield X23 further dated it. If I had saved any of them (I have kept very few modeling magazines the last 50 years) I would be happy to paper your walls with old PRR modeling articles which you would laugh at. OTOH, I have collected all but a few Trains magazines 1943 to 1954, the era I model. And starting with back issues, I have about 27 years of the Keystone. By the way, the few issues of MR et al that I did save most likely were saved for a prototype article or plan in it, lets say a John Armstrong article on Yards. Having said that, technology marches on and my principal reasons for objecting, waste of space and rapid obsolescence (to say nothing about adding clutter to wade through in a search), is all but eliminated in the lastest proposals by Al Buchan and others. Thus, giving a classic example, having a complete set of National Geographic requires a second home. The CD-ROM version occupies about a foot of shelf space. In doing the CD-ROM version, they included ads and all (a part of history, including railroad advertising, which is valuable). And it is searchable on a certain level. The points about the under-40 members are well taken. Having argued against merging modeling and history in one publication, now I hope that our best historians participate in the modeling web publication. Otherwise there is the danger of the the rapid exchange and perpetuation of misinformation. I have long contended that the problem I see with some so-called model railroaders is that they are trying to duplicate their idea of a railroad as they remember their Lionel Christmas tree layout, not any prototype. So far groups like the PRRT&HS and the PRR web chat lists have helped SPFs avoid much of that trap. A little more than my $.02 worth. And again BTW, though I am at an age where I don't buy green bananas, I am a modeler, not an historian---having been too busy to observe the railroads in any detail in my youth. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:39:50 +0000 I definitely want to model the corridor somewhere between Zoo and Trenton. My original thoughts were to selectively compress the area on two levels with a dogbone layout and sling clockers and through freights run by towers in addition to locals. I am beginning to form an idea that I need help with as an alternative. I figure that a much more detailed and prototypical run could be made by seriously modeling a very small portion of this area. the idea forming is to run the railroad diagonaly across the basement from one corner to the other and have either a dogbone or a round and round with the staging behind the visible portion in the point of the triangle it creates. I could still run the volume through the area but what I need is an area that would have a yard and some fairly heavy local traffic so that I could do more than watch the trains go round. Any thoughts as to the concept or a specific area to model? It would certainly minimize the maintenance aspect over a two level railroad. The area around N. Philly appears to have the most potential initially since all passenger trains stopped there. The N. Phl. Tower operator could act as dispatcher. Margie yard is nearby. I could also run PRSL traffic. Local industry could be a problem. I don't think there are industrial branches or areas like Holmeburg offers. Interchange traffic would benonexistant in the N. Phl. area. If a 50' length could be done it would equal about 8/10 of a mile in HO and allow lots of room for operators and operation in real time rather than fast time. I suspect I will still need to selectively compress the yard area although much of that could be hidden in the staging area and some sidings but it could work. With the staging area behind the visible portion I could also put MP54's out the Chestnut Hill line. An engine terminal would be out of the question. I'm sure I have missed something and haven't thought it all through yet. Thanks for any input or suggestions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:55:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 10:39 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > the > idea forming is to run the railroad diagonaly across the basement from > one > corner to the other and have either a dogbone or a round and round > with the > staging behind the visible portion in the point of the triangle it > creates. And while operated as a point-to-point layout, you'd also have the easy option of continuous running for open houses...or to recirculate common trains, such as clockers. You also might consider a point on the system where a flyover or interchange occurs, such as MORRIS, with its connection tot he Trenton Cut-Off (http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/morris.gif). This would make dispatching much more challenging as you would be interspersing freight traffic with passenger traffic. The Trenton Cut-Off could just be a staging yard stacked over one of the other yards. Another candidate would be SHORE, where the New Jersey traffic breaks off the corridor. You could model all of the Atlantic City specials! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:21:07 -0400 Not so fast. There were two yards with interesting operations betweeen North Phila and Shore. C St Yard and Fairhill Yard. The Oxford Rd Branch carried massive amounts for express (B-60, R50, REA, X-29) traffic to and from Sears' Distribution Center. C Street served many local industries with some street trackage north of the main line accessed from the Oxford Road Br. Cuneo Press printed TIME and it went out in express cars also. Fairhill Yard served industries from Philco to Bethlehem Steel and a branch the went to industries to the south. The LCL business for Philadelphia was concentrated at Fairhill yard, and when RBBB came to town the circus train was parked there when the circus was under the tent at Lighthouse field. the area from Ford to Zoo has terrific opportunities for modeling and operations. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions > On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 10:39 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > the > > idea forming is to run the railroad diagonaly across the basement from > > one > > corner to the other and have either a dogbone or a round and round > > with the > > staging behind the visible portion in the point of the triangle it > > creates. > > And while operated as a point-to-point layout, you'd also have the easy > option of continuous running for open houses...or to recirculate common > trains, such as clockers. > > You also might consider a point on the system where a flyover or > interchange occurs, such as MORRIS, with its connection tot he Trenton > Cut-Off (http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/morris.gif). > This would make dispatching much more challenging as you would be > interspersing freight traffic with passenger traffic. The Trenton > Cut-Off could just be a staging yard stacked over one of the other > yards. > > Another candidate would be SHORE, where the New Jersey traffic breaks > off the corridor. You could model all of the Atlantic City specials! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:48:41 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! What a shame! I guess that means those of us who like to buy, build, repaint, kitbash, and collect kits have not been voting often enough with our wallets. I have been less than satisfied with foreign assembled HO cars I have examined lately. Sloppy glue and/or paint work is often evident even before removal from the box. Most people I know who run trains regularly prefer metal grabs and steps for durabilty - much more difficult to retrofit an already built model than on a kit version. Then try to match the paint! Also, running gear usually needs work and cars almost always require added weight; often defeating any advantage to me of pre-assembly. I understand that the I-M and Red Caboose investors make a higher profit margin on R-T-R equipment but PLEASE offer models either way for those of us who still build. BTW, Kadee R-T-R PS-1 boxcars (the unsurpassed industry standard) have always been exceptionally well constructed (I have 40 examples now) but I believe they are assembled domestically. Also their delrin parts are tough as nails in operation though a bit difficult to paint! Here's to hoping I-M's Chinese labor force assembles carefully, paints correctly in avariety of car numbers, and details adequately the PRR P85 models or we will be tearing apart, stripping, repainting and redetailing those expensive R-T-R cars. Again, easier and cheaper to buy the kit. Are interiors planned? Owen Thorne PRRTHS#2461 Happily modeling the mid fifties Jerry Britton wrote: > > On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 08:30 AM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > > Varnish collectors might rejoice, but varnish modelers want to know > > when The > > HO kits will be available. I don't like paying some Chinese person to > > enjoy > > my hobby for me! > > I don't think you'll ever see them. > > I'm told from sources within IM and DPH that ready-to-run is what the > market wants. IM's stock of kits has dwindled to nearly nothing. Red > Caboose is doing the same thing. > > My own stock of kits (IM and Red Caboose) has barely moved in two > years. I quit ordering kits. I'll special order if someone wants them > and they are available, but they are no longer worth the overhead to > keep in stock. > > The down side of R2R is that they are not openly available. They are > "limited release". Each month companies like InterMountain, Red > Caboose, Micro-Trains, etc., will announce what they are running. If > you want an offering, you'd better reserve, cause over half of the > products are sold out by the time they arrive. The balance goes into > the warehouse, but rarely lasts for more than a few months. Good news > is that re-runs are done with new road numbers fairly frequently on the > most popular cars. IM has some cars that have been released in over 80 > road numbers! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad prok ×s... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:53:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 11:48 AM, Owen Thorne wrote: > Here's to hoping I-M's Chinese labor force assembles carefully, > paints > correctly in avariety of car numbers, and details adequately the PRR > P85 > models or we will be tearing apart, stripping, repainting and > redetailing those expensive R-T-R cars. Again, easier and cheaper to > buy > the kit. Are interiors planned? I understand the frustrations of those who prefer to build and paint... InterMountain has previously done build-ups of Reading and B&M coaches and combines from Bethlehem Car Works and they came back looking fantastic. I sold quite a few of them. My recollection is that they had interiors, but they definitely had sun shades, which was an unexpected nice touch. They will be rerunning four additional Reading coach road numbers shortly. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:22:51 -0500 Own Thorne writes: > What a shame! I guess that means those of us who like to buy, build, > repaint, kitbash, and collect kits have not been voting often enough > with our wallets. I have been less than satisfied with foreign assembled > HO cars I have examined lately. Sloppy glue and/or paint work is often > evident even before removal from the box. Most people I know who run > trains regularly prefer metal grabs and steps for durabilty - much more > difficult to retrofit an already built model than on a kit version. Then > try to match the paint! Also, running gear usually needs work and cars > almost always require added weight; often defeating any advantage to me > of pre-assembly. I understand that the I-M and Red Caboose investors > make a higher profit margin on R-T-R equipment but PLEASE offer models > either way for those of us who still build. . Agree with you on paint, etc. But also how about the nuisance of replacing those plastic land fill,otherwise known as provided couplers? Especially if the coupler pocket is glued on. You are also correct about not voting enough with the wallet. But there is another big factor. Manufacturers who want kit parts build in China are at the back of the line. China wants labor value added and Chinese manufacturers give priority to assembled goods for that reason and hard sell anyone looking for kit parts to assemble them. So the manufacturers have to vote with the wallet to get suppliers by paying for assembly. Given the dearth of kit sales in the last few years, they opt for that assembly. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:32:49 -0400 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:33:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! From: Jerry Britton Resent-From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 12:22 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Agree with you on paint, etc. But also how about the nuisance of > replacing > those plastic land fill,otherwise known as provided couplers? > Especially if > the coupler pocket is glued on. All InterMountain assembled cars come with Kadee #5's installed. Or are you putting horn hook couplers on yours? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http:/Opennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:46:15 -0700 Jerry, What about us trying to use Kadee #58's? Frankly, I loathe the fact that all the new RTR cars come with their coupler pockets glued on. I have to use an ACC debonder to remove them, and even then it's a pain, and I usually break something. Whatever happened to screw-on coupler pockets? Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! > Agree with you on paint, etc. But also how about the nuisance of replacing > those plastic land fill,otherwise known as provided couplers? Especially if the coupler pocket is glued on. All InterMountain assembled cars come with Kadee #5's installed. Or are you putting horn hook couplers on yours? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:51:12 -0400 Dave said> " I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be a much smaller group?" So wonder where it will be also. What ideas do we have to keep it from getting smaller and hopefully growing? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:56:25 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35C3B.AC152A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Screwing on takes time, Also the screws probably cost more than the glue! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! Jerry, What about us trying to use Kadee #58's? Frankly, I loathe the fact that all the new RTR cars come with their coupler pockets glued on. I have to use an ACC debonder to remove them, and even then it's a pain, and I usually break something. Whatever happened to screw-on coupler pockets? Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches! > Agree with you on paint, etc. But also how about the nuisance of replacing > those plastic land fill,otherwise known as provided couplers? Especially if the coupler pocket is glued on. All InterMountain assembled cars come with Kadee #5's installed. Or are you putting horn hook couplers on yours? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35C3B.AC152A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches!

Screwing on takes time,  Also the screws = probably cost more than the glue!


Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:46 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches!


Jerry,

What about us trying to use Kadee #58's?  = Frankly, I loathe the fact that
all the new RTR cars come with their coupler pockets = glued on.  I have to
use an ACC debonder to remove them, and even then = it's a pain, and I usually
break something.

Whatever happened to screw-on coupler pockets?

Ray Breyer

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On = Behalf Of Jerry
Britton
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] R2R P85 Coaches!

> Agree with you on paint, etc.  But also how = about the nuisance of
replacing
> those plastic land fill,otherwise known as = provided couplers?  Especially
if the coupler pocket is glued on.

All InterMountain assembled cars come with Kadee #5's = installed.

Or are you putting horn hook couplers on yours?  = ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C35C3B.AC152A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:02:01 -0400 Maybe we should talk to the guys from the NYO&W society. They seem to be very active and their railroad went belly up 10 years before ours. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:51 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 group" Dave said> " I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be a much smaller group?" So wonder where it will be also. What ideas do we have to keep it from getting smaller and hopefully growing? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:02:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 12:51 PM, Al Buchan wrote: > Dave said> " I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be > a much smaller group?" > > So wonder where it will be also. > > What ideas do we have to keep it from getting smaller and hopefully > growing? Al: I think you're on the right track. The Society -- with respect to the older members who think otherwise -- must cater to the modelers. Twenty years from now most of the ex-PRR employees will be gone. Prospective members will be historians (very few) and modelers. The Pennsy may gain momentum in the modeling field. Why? Well, a high percentage of modelers model current roads. They will always change. Those that want to model the days of steam will look to the historic roads that used a lot of steam. PRR, I believe, will be near the top. So how do we cater to modelers and attract more? I think the new modeling enewsletter is a great start. Just make sure you have backups of everything on CD-ROM (in the event of server failure) and keep all issues accessible at all times (don't skimp on disk space). My suggestion earlier of putting out Society prospectus materials at PRR layout open houses ought to help. Now that we have a "modeling committee", I wonder if we could develop a rapport with manufacturers to "certify" their models. Taken a step further, if a model is certified by the PRRT&HS, might we get them to include a PRRT&HS mini-brochure inside the model box? Would probably be difficult to arrange, but it's a thought. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:24:40 -0700 Pressed "Reply" instead of "Reply All", meant it for everyone. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bruce" To: "Jerry Britton" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions > I would simply offer a note of caution here -- in my late teens during > PRR/PC years I rode the NEC back and forth to college, from Washington to > either Boston or Springfield, depending on when bus connections were better. > You can well imagine what I wanted to model. > > There are several things that I came up against in this. Recent years have > brought some models that would make the chances better -- when I first > thought of this scheme, not even S.Soho had come along with > Congressional/Senator cars, for instance, and the choice in GG1s was Penn > Line or Rivarossi -- but you will need: > > 1 set each (at least) of such trains as the Congressional, Senator, > Patriot, Keystone, Silver Meteor, other SAL trains, Champions, Crescent, C&O > trains, Broadway, General, Manhattan Limited, Duquesne, etc. etc. etc. etc. > etc. etc. etc. > > A very large roster of (depending on era) GG1s, P5as, E44s, > miscellaneous other electrics, MU cars, etc., plus diesels or steam > > A very large roster of (depending on era) P70s or other coaches and > other heavyweight cars, including rebuilt diners, etc. etc. > > In addition to the "usual suspect" freight cars, a lot of the > distinctive cars that you saw on the NEC, such as the "Sole Leather Line" > WAG box cars, Southern Railway unique modern box cars, PRR freight car > designs, etc. > > Now, in the 35 or so years since I envisioned doing this, there are now > brass passenger cars, resin freight cars, brass electric locos, the Broadway > Limited GG1, Bowser caboses and other freight cars, etc., that would make > this at least much more theoretically do-able, as might a C/MRI or other > form of assisted operation. But even assuming the money were available to > get the equipment (you would presumably have to budget for at least one or > two full sets of brass name trains a year to begin to finish this in a > lifetime) teh question is time, effort, the burnout factor, etc. And what > if you have a career that means you'd have to move several times? And if > you figured the staging needs of the hidden "Sunnyside yard" at the ends of > the layout, how much space would this REALLY take up? And what if, like > Tony Koester, you suddenly decided you'd maybe like to try something else, > like narrow gauge? > > I ran up against all these issues (still have a Soho Congressional and > Senator set in boxes, mostly painted) and wound up deciding to rethink my > approach to the hobby -- have never regretted it, even though I still get > the occasional brass FL9 or E44! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:55 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions > > > > On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 10:39 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > > > the > > > idea forming is to run the railroad diagonaly across the basement from > > > one > > > corner to the other and have either a dogbone or a round and round > > > with the > > > staging behind the visible portion in the point of the triangle it > > > creates. > > > > And while operated as a point-to-point layout, you'd also have the easy > > option of continuous running for open houses...or to recirculate common > > trains, such as clockers. > > > > You also might consider a point on the system where a flyover or > > interchange occurs, such as MORRIS, with its connection tot he Trenton > > Cut-Off (http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/morris.gif). > > This would make dispatching much more challenging as you would be > > interspersing freight traffic with passenger traffic. The Trenton > > Cut-Off could just be a staging yard stacked over one of the other > > yards. > > > > Another candidate would be SHORE, where the New Jersey traffic breaks > > off the corridor. You could model all of the Atlantic City specials! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:48:42 -0400 The more people who are exposed to PRR material, the more people will want to join. How about seeing if Model Railroader & other sites would want to link to the Keystone Modeler? Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 group" > Dave said> " I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be > a much smaller group?" > > So wonder where it will be also. > > What ideas do we have to keep it from getting smaller and hopefully > growing? > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:09:17 +0000 Now that we have a "modeling committee", I wonder if we could develop a > rapport with manufacturers to "certify" their models. Taken a step > further, if a model is certified by the PRRT&HS, might we get them to > include a PRRT&HS mini-brochure inside the model box? Would probably be > difficult to arrange, but it's a thought. An official PRR modeling committee that takes a vow of secrecy so it can work with the manufacturers is an excellent idea. They can provide the research and data to improve the models design, correct pilot model errors and provide us with a much better representation. I would think the manufacturers would welcome the help as it wouldn't cost them anything. The rub will be when they produce the model and the different road variations they will probably go with the most common. Example - no nose lift rings on F's or E's. > On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 12:51 PM, Al Buchan wrote: > > > Dave said> " I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be > > a much smaller group?" > > > > So wonder where it will be also. > > > > What ideas do we have to keep it from getting smaller and hopefully > > growing? > > Al: I think you're on the right track. The Society -- with respect to > the older members who think otherwise -- must cater to the modelers. > Twenty years from now most of the ex-PRR employees will be gone. > Prospective members will be historians (very few) and modelers. > > The Pennsy may gain momentum in the modeling field. Why? Well, a high > percentage of modelers model current roads. They will always change. > Those that want to model the days of steam will look to the historic > roads that used a lot of steam. PRR, I believe, will be near the top. > > So how do we cater to modelers and attract more? > > I think the new modeling enewsletter is a great start. Just make sure > you have backups of everything on CD-ROM (in the event of server > failure) and keep all issues accessible at all times (don't skimp on > disk space). > > My suggestion earlier of putting out Society prospectus materials at > PRR layout open houses ought to help. > > Now that we have a "modeling committee", I wonder if we could develop a > rapport with manufacturers to "certify" their models. Taken a step > further, if a model is certified by the PRRT&HS, might we get them to > include a PRRT&HS mini-brochure inside the model box? Would probably be > difficult to arrange, but it's a thought. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:14:15 +0000 The key to me is to get published in the mainstream press. That always seems to peak peoples interest. Maybe some of the older Keystone articles could be submitted to say Trains or with a construction article to MR. Those articles usually give some background info also. As the Standard railroad of the world and traffic density that probably equals nearly all the traffic in the country today I think the future of the PRR should be pretty good. The achievements and changes instituted by the PRR alone should draw people. > The more people who are exposed to PRR material, the more people will want > to join. How about seeing if Model Railroader & other sites would want to > link to the Keystone Modeler? > > Jerry Shickler > Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Buchan" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:51 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 > group" > > > > Dave said> " I wonder where the PRRT&HS will be in 10 years. Will it be > > a much smaller group?" > > > > So wonder where it will be also. > > > > What ideas do we have to keep it from getting smaller and hopefully > > growing? > > > > Al > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:59:53 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re :Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the "under 40 --=====================_16449995==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jerry, >Most (IMHO) of our future young members will be modelers seeking prototype >information. As one of the "Over 50 group" I feel that I must say something on this subject. Most kids want to "have fun". When it feels like school, they quickly lose interest and turn to their Playstation 2. History is an interesting and exciting study when it means something you are interested in. If you've never seen a K4 blasting through the countryside pulling a string of varnish, it's hard to get excited over it. Models help to recreate that imagry. Since the only place a person could see a PRR steam engine in action was at the Strasburg Railroad, until recent times, the younger folks can no longer know what that is like. Diesels have never fulfilled my railroading need. An ATSF F7 looks the same to me as a PRR F7 except for the paint and antenna and up close and personal, they stink the same way . I have always been a PRRT&HS wannabe. One of the main reasons I haven't joined is the lack of modeling information in the Keystone. Please don't get me wrong, it is a great publication but I fall short of the typical PRR fan in the respect that I am not a true historian, I just love the railroad itself and I try to remember things from my youth. There was very little PRR traffic where I grew up. The Reading was THE railroad that ran through with the long freights and occasional passenger trains. I truly didn't attempt to model anything PRR until I discovered the Cornwall Railroad and it's parallel trackage to the PRR into Lebanon. >* That we, as a Society, promote a national open house weekend of PRR >layouts and encourage children (of a reasonable age) to attend with >parents. Perhaps age 10 and older or so (though my five year old runs >Digitrax/Soundtraxx quite well!). I will always attempt to be a part of the open house layout tours for the convention since the visitors are all interested in the railroad and my operation. I rarely see kids during those tours. I am also a Boy Scout Counselor for the Railroad Merit badge (doesn't that scare you?) and my goal is to help the Boy Scout learn all he wants to about the industry but it also maintains a distinct PRR flavor. If the PRRT&HS intends to survive, it needs (IMOHO) to do something to get the interest of the younger modeler since there will no longer be surviving railroaders from a 30-year old railroad that no longer exists. My two cents, Nick Kulp --=====================_16449995==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jerry,

Most (IMHO) of our future young members will be modelers seeking prototype information.

As one of the "Over 50 group" I feel that I must say something on this subject. Most kids want to "have fun". When it feels like school, they quickly lose interest and turn to their Playstation 2. History is an interesting and exciting study when it means something you are interested in. If you've never seen a K4 blasting through the countryside pulling a string of varnish, it's hard to get excited over it. Models help to recreate that imagry. Since the only place a person could see a PRR steam engine in action was at the Strasburg Railroad, until recent times, the younger folks can no longer know what that is like. Diesels have never fulfilled my railroading need. An ATSF F7 looks the same to me as a PRR F7 except for the paint and antenna and up close and personal, they stink the same way <VBG>.

I have always been a PRRT&HS wannabe. One of the main reasons I haven't joined is the lack of modeling information in the Keystone. Please don't get me wrong, it is a great publication but I fall short of the typical PRR fan in the respect that I am not a true historian, I just love the railroad itself and I try to remember things from my youth. There was very little PRR traffic where I grew up. The Reading was THE railroad that ran through with the long freights and occasional passenger trains. I truly didn't attempt to model anything PRR until I discovered the Cornwall Railroad and it's parallel trackage to the PRR into Lebanon.

* That we, as a Society, promote a national open house weekend of PRR
layouts and encourage children (of a reasonable age) to attend with
parents. Perhaps age 10 and older or so (though my five year old runs
Digitrax/Soundtraxx quite well!).

I will always attempt to be a part of the open house layout tours for the convention since the visitors are all interested in the railroad and my operation. I rarely see kids during those tours. I am also a Boy Scout Counselor for the Railroad Merit badge (doesn't that scare you?) and my goal is to help the Boy Scout learn all he wants to about the industry but it also maintains a distinct PRR flavor. If the PRRT&HS intends to survive, it needs (IMOHO) to do something to get the interest of the younger modeler since there will no longer be surviving railroaders from a 30-year old railroad that no longer exists.

My two cents,
Nick Kulp --=====================_16449995==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:02:43 -0400 List, Don't jump the gun too hard on surviving PRR equipment. I know that SEPTA still runs BUDD Silverliner cars(PioneerIII) that still retain thier PRR Sans Serif Numbers as well as a few that still have 'Pennsylvania' on the letteboard. I live in york, and everytime I drive on Route 30 and pass over the low grade line I look in the yard to see if the PRR MOW Pullman is still there. It may be getting old and tatered, but at one time it was the glory of the fleet. Signal bridges alone are a testimony of what was once PRR Territory. Towers still stand, stations still serve(some restored to its own glory days). As much as some people would hate to admit it, the PC equipment that survives now was once PRR equipment too, and should be studied. I'm old enough to still remember when 1223 was under steam on the Strasburg Railroad. It was a great thing to see it running with some vintage coaches. It is times like those that make people want to know more and join the society. Theres my three cents. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re :Future of PRRT&HS (was): PRR Modeling and the Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:50:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C35C43.39BA9800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, Since someone else who is not a member has offered his opinion, I guess = I'll offer mine as a non-member as well. I do have a connection with = the PRR, having been an employee from May 9, 1962, though its merger = with the NYC, but I never worked for the PRR in Pennsylvania, only in = Louisiana (3 years), Ohio (less than 1 year), and Maryland (2 years). It is obvious that the vast majority of the mebership lives in the = Eastern half of Pennsylvania, as almost all activities of the Society = are geared to people in that area. Since I live 1000 miles from there in = the Florida panhandle, the only membership benefit to me would be the = Keystone, and since my principal railroad related activity these days is = modeling the PRR in N scale, the lack of modeling information in it = makes it cost more than the perceived benefit. Someone mentioned that modeling information is perishable, unlike = information on the prototype. Funny, I'm building a chlorine tank car = with 15 cylinders, as used by PPG and PennSalt, from a fifty year old = article that appeared in Model Railroader . Yes, things have changed, = brake rigging is no longer "optional" even in N scale, but a great deal = of the article is still most useful. My 2=A2 Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C35C43.39BA9800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,
 
Since someone else who is not a member has offered = his=20 opinion, I guess I'll offer mine as a non-member as well.  I do = have a=20 connection with the PRR, having been an employee from May 9, 1962, = though its=20 merger with the NYC, but I never worked for the PRR in=20 Pennsylvania, only in Louisiana (3 years), Ohio (less than 1 = year), and=20 Maryland (2 years).
 
It is obvious that the vast majority of the = mebership lives in=20 the Eastern half of Pennsylvania, as almost all activities of the = Society are=20 geared to people in that area. Since I live 1000 miles from there in the = Florida=20 panhandle, the only membership benefit to me would be the Keystone, and = since my=20 principal railroad related activity these days is modeling the PRR in N = scale,=20 the lack of modeling information in it makes it cost more than the = perceived=20 benefit.
 
Someone mentioned that modeling information is = perishable,=20 unlike information on the prototypI›unny, I'm building a chlorine tank = car=20 with 15 cylinders, as used by PPG and PennSalt, from a fifty year old = article=20 that appeared in Model Railroader . Yes, things have changed, = brake=20 rigging is no longer "optional" even in N scale, but a great deal of the = article=20 is still most useful.
 
My 2=A2
 
Gregg Mahlkov
 
------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C35C43.39BA9800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: National Archives Reference Information Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:47:38 +0000 looks like it was too long for the forum. E mail off line if you want the entire paper. It is Word format. Norm Bell > >I came across this information on the web today. It is quite lengthy but > > >might help someone who is doing some research. Note particularly the > >frequently asked questions at the end. > > > >National Archives Reference Information Paper 91 -- Railroad-related > Records > >Part I > >Introduction > >I.1 This reference information paper describes significant records in the > > >National Archives that relate to railroads in the United States > (including > >Alaska, Hawaii, ›¸ ×Puerto Rico), Canada, Mexico, and the Panama Canal. > This > >paper describes documentation concerning the railroads and their > interaction > >with the U.S. Government from the beginning of railroading to 1996. The > >records described include more than 1,000 series of textual, > cartographic, > >still picture, motion picture, sound recording, and electronic records in > 57 > >record groups housed in the Washington, DC, area and the regional > archives > >branches of the National Archives and Records Administration as of > December > >31, 1996, as well as a few records in Presidential libraries. > >I.2 The paper contains a preface, introduction, frequently asked > questions, > >record descriptions, appendices, and index. The record description > sections > >are arranged by general subject category, such as "Federal Regulation and > > >Oversight of Railroads" and "Railroads and the Military," thereunder by > >record group and type of records (textual and nontextual), and thereunder > by > >creating organization and record series title or item description. > >I.3 Textual record descriptions usually consist of the following > elements: > >record group number and title; structure or organization title; series > title > >and date span (boldface); linear measurement or item count; master > location > >register number; finding aid designation; arrangement statement; and > details > >about the records. Occasionally, the records format and brief > organizational > >histories are also included. The master location register number is the > >control number of the series. The finding aid designation is either the > >number of the published preliminary inventory or inventory; the > designation > >for description completed after or in the absence of a published > inventory > >(A1); or records that have not been described at all (UD). Nontextual > records > >descriptions basically consist of the same elements as in textual > >descriptions. The NARA-assigned series designators are cited for the > still > >picture records. There are excellent published finding aids to the > >cartographic and still picture records in NARA which include series > >designators. > >Description of Records > >I.4 Each record group covers the records of a major governmental unit, > such > >as an agency or bureau. Within each record group, the basic archival unit > of > >control is the series, which is a body of records arranged according to a > > >filing system or logically kept together for some other reason (such as > >describing a similar subject or function, resulting from the same > activity, > >documenting a specific kind of transaction, or taking a particular > physical > >form). > >I.5 There are series level descriptions for every record group, except > for > >sub-group level descriptions in those record groups that are composed > >entirely of records relating to railroads. The three exceptions to this > rule > >are the Records of the Interstate Commerce Commission (Record Group 134), > the > > Your message could not be posted to the PRR-Talk list because the message > was too large. > > For more information, you can contact the list administrator at: > > Listmaster > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:19:53 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS I am no longer "under 40," but I was when I joined the society LONG after the PRR was, er, history. And I'm just old enough to remember when the PRR still ran through my hometown of Chambersburg, but I didn't form any emotional attachment to it until much later. PRRT&HS didn't attract me to the PRR, but I joined it because I wanted to learn about the railroad that I was already interested in. FWIW, Frary's PRR-esque project layout in MR pre-dates my membership in the society. Because I chose to model a narrow gauge railroad that interchanges with the PRR in the late-1930s, I am as heavily interested in the history of the PRR as I am in modeling its equipment and operations prototypically. For Gen. x/y/z, modeling the pre-merger era is as distant in the past as the 1930s is for me. So, it seems to me that there is a need for historical information that would be of use to them, not so much a modeling focus as a resource for "getting it right" in a broader context. A few more points: 1) The society, through some of its members who are both skilled historical researchers and model railroaders, has already played an important (and lasting) positive impact on the model railroading front. Witness the color and lettering on Red Caboose's X29 and the Genesis F7. With the recent boom in affordable quality steam locomotives and steam-era freight cars, a fairly young generation of modelers has gotten into historical modeling. In the PRR arena, there already seems to be a growing consensus that the PRRT&HS is where one turns to "get it right." 2) There is more to model railroading than building models (blinding flash of the obvious), and the content of the Keystone is the best source of things like track and facility layouts, structure design, period photographs captioned in a reliably correct manner (swipe at Harrumph 1 - 5), and operations. There have also been a number of good-to-excellent articles on modeling the PRR in various eras in the hobby press. For these reasons, I would rather see the content of the _Keystone_ and the general agenda of presentations at annual conventions continue to focus on the historical. 3) I'm not sure there is a "best way" to ensure the survival of an organization with an aging membership population. If the City of Pittsburgh, where I currently live, can't figure it out ... but I digress. It would seem to me that a PRR SIG in the NMRA, visibly involved with modeling displays, clinics, etc. at regional and national conventions, would be a good way to evangelize about the PRR and the society. 4) I applaud the efforts of Al and others. I'm not so sure the society needs to reinvent itself as much as it needs (perhaps) to market itself _for what it is_ a bit more agressively at model railroading events. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Track Cleaning Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:37:11 -0400 Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping your track clean? I have started to operate and would like to minimize the wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas. Any/all suggestions welcomed. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:12:51 -0400 Frank, Two items; Maas or Flitz metal polish to clean, and Radio Shack (or other) TV Tuner Cleaner & Lubricant for conductivity. Bright Boy only for spills of paint or glue. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "parkvarieties" To: "PRR- Talk" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Track Cleaning > Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping > your track clean? I have started to operate and would like to minimize the > wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas. > Any/all suggestions welcomed. > > Frank Brua > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:29:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions From: Alex Charyna North Philadelphia area has great potential. Page 130 of Triumph III has a great drawing of that area. 6 tracks through the station, branch to Chestnut Hill, the Shifftown Branch, team tracks, 15th Street Yard,North Philadelphia Freight Yard, the 12th Street Yard and Automobile unloading tracks. Plus you've got the Reading main out of Philly, and the PRR-RDG connecting track. Another location is Frankford Junction. Just east of SHORE, where the Kensington Branch comes in to the NEC. There is a pretty substantial yard there. A layout here would probably focus on freight coming off of the Kensington and Westmoreland branches. There was also a turntable here as well, if that's your interest. -alex On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 10:39 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I definitely want to model the corridor somewhere between Zoo and > Trenton. > My original thoughts were to selectively compress the area on two > levels with > a dogbone layout and sling clockers and through freights run by towers > in > addition to locals. I am beginning to form an idea that I need help > with as > an alternative. I figure that a much more detailed and prototypical > run > could be made by seriously modeling a very small portion of this area. > the > idea forming is to run the railroad diagonaly across the basement from > one > corner to the other and have either a dogbone or a round and round > with the > staging behind the visible portion in the point of the triangle it > creates. > I could still run the volume through the area but what I need is an > area that > would have a yard and some fairly heavy local traffic so that I could > do more > than watch the trains go round. Any thoughts as to the concept or a > specific > area to model? It would certainly minimize the maintenance aspect > over a two > level railroad. The area around N. Philly appears to have the most > potential > initially since all passenger trains stopped there. The N. Phl. Tower > operator could act as dispatcher. Margie yard is nearby. I could > also run > PRSL traffic. Local industry could be a problem. I don't think there > are > industrial branches or areas like Holmeburg offers. Interchange > traffic > would benonexistant in the N. Phl. area. If a 50' length could be done > it > would equal about 8/10 of a mile in HO and allow lots of room for > operators > and operation in real time rather than fast time. I suspect I will > still > need to selectively compress the yard area although much of that could > be > hidden in the staging area and some sidings but it could work. With the > staging area behind the visible portion I could also put MP54's out the > Chestnut Hill line. An engine terminal would be out of the question. > I'm > sure I have missed something and haven't thought it all through yet. > Thanks > for any input or suggestions. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:51:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future of PRRT&HS --part1_152.2284c8d8.2c62fc9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly right, Mr. Keller. I too am a little too young to have many memories of the Pennsy, despite my lifelong proximity to its mainlines in The East. My first PRR memory dates from 1965, when I was 5 years old and was seeing my grandparents off at the Trenton (NJ) Station. I certainly had no exposure to the 'grand old days' of the PRR. Like so many others, I am both a modeler and a history buff of the PRR. I can't even imagine separating the two interests. My tenure with the PRRT&HS spans the past two decades. The Keystone has proven to be entertaining, enlightening and fascinating as an historical repository as well as a vast source of inspiration for a modeler who wants to replicate the business and operational practices of his favorite enterprise - namely the PRR. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_152.2284c8d8.2c62fc9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exactly right, Mr. Keller.  I too am a little too= young to have many memories of the Pennsy, despite my lifelong proximity to= its mainlines in The East.  My first PRR memory dates from 1965, when=20= I was 5 years old and was seeing my gphotparents off at the Trenton (NJ) Sta= tion.  I certainly had no exposure to the 'grand old days' of the PRR.<= BR>
Like so many others, I am both a modeler and a history buff of the PRR. = ; I can't even imagine separating the two interests.  My tenure with th= e PRRT&HS spans the past two decades.  The Keystone has proven to b= e entertaining, enlightening and fascinating as an historical repository as=20= well as a vast source of inspiration for a modeler who wants to replicate th= e business and operational practices of his favorite enterprise - namely the= PRR.

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_152.2284c8d8.2c62fc9c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:12:05 GMT Subject: [PRR] Younger Crowd From: Dominic Mazoch Millions of people have seen 2 movies having a passenger train wih red cars pulled by a steam engine with a belpaire boiler. Only problem is, this train is not quite real. Nor is it American. The train I am refering to is the Hogwarts Express from the Harry potter novels/movies. Has anybody thought of pointing out to those fans the connection between that engine's boiler and the PRR. Or the train colour is like PRR's. Two parts of the magic which is PRR....and you don't need awand to enjoy them! Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:15:09 GMT Subject: [PRR] Santa Fe Groups From: Dominic Mazoch The ATSF modelers and the historians were once two different groups. A few years ago, they merged. The merger produced the hobby affects one sees today. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:18:27 GMT Subject: [PRR] No GG-1, no Acela From: Dominic Mazoch Another point: If there was no electrification of the PRR, there would be no GG-1's, no Metroliners, no Acela......connect the points. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:38:51 -0400 From: Steve Sharpe Subject: Re: [PRR] Younger Crowd At 1:12 AM +0000 8/7/03, Dominic Mazoch wrote: > -04ions of people have seen 2 movies having a passenger train wih >red cars pulled by a steam engine with a belpaire boiler. > >Only problem is, this train is not quite real. Nor is it American. > >The train I am refering to is the Hogwarts Express from the Harry >potter novels/movies. > >Has anybody thought of pointing out to those fans the connection >between that engine's boiler and the PRR. Or the train colour is >like PRR's. > >Two parts of the magic which is PRR....and you don't need awand to enjoy them! I have a three year old nephew who is train crazy, thanks in large part to Thomas the Tank Engine. When they visited last week I showed him and his dad my Pennsy layout and let him run the trains. He was thrilled beyond compare. When he left I gave him a couple of Model Power dummy PRR FA's that some well meaning person had given me, as well as a powered BL2 that I had also somehow acquired. His parents tell me that he takes them to bed with him each night, and is now badgering dad to build him a layout like his uncle has. I feel evil. :^) -- Steve sbs@milestone-media.com • ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Younger Crowd List....... I'm in the "40s age group", so I saw the tail end of the PRR but mostly Penn Central. All the "connections" to the PRR were still in place. Lots of "keystones" still around. Horseshoe had four tracks and it seemed like the GG1 would never be retired. There was always a connection to the PRR back when I was growing up in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Young railfans see the ex PRR mainline as Conrail's or Norfolk Southern's. I met a bunch of young railfans in Altoona a week ago. I tried to talk PRR with them and it was like I was speaking another language. These guys came from NYC to see a Conrail SD80mac. And they didn't even visit the museum. Oh well. Better luck next time. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Les Zody" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:23:26 -0700 Subject: [PRR] ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C35C50.35932280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C35C50.35932280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


= ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C35C50.35932280-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] BROADWAY LIMITED IMPORTS production Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 d on7:05 -0400 Well Guys, Your fears, heart palpitations, anxiety, and angst appear to be over at least for now. I have just seen my first BLI GG1 listing on Ebay, meaning they DELIVERED another project. If it were my listing, I would be happy with 1/2 of the bids that were on it. The HO guys don't know how good you really have it. You have MULTPLE manufacturers of many items. I have waded though LOTS of, "is it delayed?" "Has it been pushed back?" and "what project are they announcing now when they don't even have XXXX done yet?" emails! Just be GLAD that someone is willing to RISK investing $50,000.00+ to release a model that has already been available for 30 years! I have been trying to get my S Scale X29 project into production for over 5 years now. I am NOT PROUD that it has taken that long. Now lets count the "where is it" inquiries. I have had 1 so far this year, and I had 1 late last year. They know I am still working on it, in spite of carrying an EXTREME loss on the project. Patience is a good word here. I will be the first in line if BLI decides to make something in S. I will wait until it is done to form my opinion, not from seeing some low rez Internet photos of pre-production parts. Try producing a project yourself. You will get a very clear view very quickly what it is like to be in the world of model railroading manufacturing. Let BLI do their thing in their time. Just have cash in hand when someone can slide it across the hobby shop counter in your direction. Then you can smile and hide it from your wife! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:18:41 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: PRR P85b coaches] After the awful news from Jerry yesterday, I asked DesPlaines about HO P85s as kits. Here is their response. So do we want wait and pray, or do I scratch build a few more? I've scratchbuilt 4 so far. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org -------- Original Message -------- Subject: PRR P85b coaches Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:34:33 -0500 From: Ron Sebastian To: "Andrew S. Miller" References: <3F314B79.9EFEC46F@mitre.org> Thank you for the note. Since the P85br was first conceived and our later acquisition of the tooling, the market has changed dramatically. Our first offerings will be for the larger market to recover some of our costs, and then we will look at other offerings. Our roots are in kits and we will make every effort to satisfy as large a market as we can. Ronald Sebastian "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > I've heard rumors of good news and bad news. The good news is that > Intermountain will soon release the RTR version of your long awaited PRR > P85b coach. The bad news is that Intermountain will soon release the > RTR version of your long awaited PRR P85b coach. There has been much > discussion on the PRR list re the fear that your P85 kits will never be > offered as a kit, and that model RRers (as opposed to collectors) will > have to pay a premium for an assembled car and then disassemble it to > detail it, weather it, change the couplers, etc. Say it isn't so. I've > been waiting breathlessly for your P85 kit since I first saw it at > Springfield three years ago! > > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== -- Ron Sebastian Des Plaines Hobbies 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines, IL 60018 1-847-297-2118 fax: 847-297-4976 www.desplaineshobbies.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] N. Phl. station Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:25:43 +0000 Does anyone have a picture you could e mail me of the bridge abutments over Broad St. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:35:02 -0400 I periodically clean all trackwork with isopropyl alcohol and a muslin pad, then lubricate the tops of the rail with TV tuner oil and run it around with a loco. I clean all wheels at the time I clean the track with alcohol. I clean wheels by rolling my stock over alcohol saturated cloths laid on the rails. I do locos the same way, but power them remotely. Lew Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message ----- From: "parkvarieties" To: "PRR- Talk" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Track Cleaning > Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping > your track clean? I have started to operate and would like to minimize the > wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas. > Any/all suggestions welcomed. > > Frank Brua > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:53:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 09:35 AM, Lewis J. Matt PhD wrote: > I periodically clean all trackwork with isopropyl alcohol and a muslin > pad, > then lubricate the tops of the rail with TV tuner oil and run it > around with > a loco. I clean all wheels at the time I clean the track with > alcohol. I > clean wheels by rolling my stock over alcohol saturated cloths laid on > the > rails. I do locos the same way, but power them remotely. I just purchased a Clean Machine from Tony's ( http://www.ttx-dcc.com/products/ttxexclusive_cmx.htm ). Haven't used it yet -- will in a week or so -- but they make it in both HO and N. Real heavy car!!! The instructions say you can use any cleaner, but for a real good clean they recommend acetone or nail polish remover (which is actually acetone based, normally). Will be happy to report after I do my cleaning. My cleaning is pending hookup of a few more wires, then vacuuming may main level, a helix, and a staging area that has been under construction for about 18 months. Only have about six more wire hookups and then I'm ready to rock-n-roll...finally! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:10:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Semanchuk-Enser Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning At our model RR club we use Goo-Gone which cleans the daylights out of the track with minimal effort. For mainlines we use a "roller" car (usually a caboose) and put Goo Gone on the the pad on the roller. We have a special "cleaning train" made up of a car that has a brightboy under it followed by the roller car. For sidings and yards we use a brightboy and then follow up with GooGone on a piece of cloth. Really does a nice job. You can find GooGone at just about any Home Depot, Loews or Wal-Mart. Regards On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, parkvarieties wrote: >Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping >your track clean? I have started to operate and would like to minimize the >wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas. >Any/all suggestions welcomed. > >Frank Brua > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:43:11 -0500 From: Ron Sebastian Subject: [PRR] Des Plaines/Centralia Car Shops P85br coaches > After the awful news from Jerry yesterday, I asked DesPlaines about HO > P85s as kits. Here is their response. So do we want wait and pray, or > do I scratch build a few more? I've scratchbuilt 4 so far. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.or I guess I missed the "awful news" from yesterday, but most around here think the release of the long awaited P85br is pretty good. Sure looks good behind the Broadyway G. Scratchbuilding is an art and my hat is off to anyone so inclined. Wish I had the skills. Our Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Cars Shops HO P85 will probably be no competition for a scratchbuilt model, however some of the underbody details and trucks may be of some value to the scratchbuilder. The all new diecast trucks should be available for sale in about 45 days and I suspect some of the seperate undebody details such as water tanks, compressor, condenser, battery boxes, amplidyne generator and others will show up shortly after the assembled cars. Ron Sebastian Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines, IL 60018 1-847-297-2118 fax: 847-297-4976 www.desplaineshobbies.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Cleaning Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:42:40 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35CFA.88D02E70 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; The best combo I've found for my layout, which is TERRIBLE for keeping clean (garage, no temp control, high variations in humidity, local air conditions, etc.), is the following: Centerline car at front with pad loaded with GooGone; High quality metal wheelsets; Centerline car at rear with dry pads. Yeah! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Will Semanchuk-Enser [mailto:alcoman@net.bluemoon.net] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:10 AM To: parkvarieties Cc: PRR- Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning At our model RR club we use Goo-Gone which cleans the daylights out of the track with minimal effort. For mainlines we use a "roller" car (usually a caboose) and put Goo Gone on the the pad on the roller. We have a special "cleaning train" made up of a car that has a brightboy under it followed by the roller car. For sidings and yards we use a brightboy and then follow up with GooGone on a piece of cloth. Really does a nice job. You can find GooGone at just about any Home Depot, Loews or Wal-Mart. Regards On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, parkvarieties wrote: >Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping >your track clean? I have started to operate and would like to minimize the >wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas. >Any/all suggestions welcomed. > >Frank Brua > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35CFA.88D02E70 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Track Cleaning

Hi all;
The best combo I've found for my layout, which is = TERRIBLE for keeping clean (garage, no temp control, high variations in = humidity, local air conditions, etc.), is the following:

Centerline car at front with pad loaded with = GooGone;
High quality metal wheelsets;
Centerline car at rear with dry pads.

Yeah!
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Will Semanchuk-Enser [mailto:alcoman@net.bluemoon.net= ]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:10 AM
To: parkvarieties
Cc: PRR- Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning


At our model RR club we use Goo-Gone which cleans the = daylights out of the
track with minimal effort.  For mainlines we = use a "roller" car (usually a
caboose) and put Goo Gone on the the pad on the = roller.  We have a special
"cleaning train" made up of a car that has = a brightboy under it followed
by the roller car.  For sidings and yards we = use a brightboy and then
follow up with GooGone on a piece of cloth.  = Really does a nice job.  You
can find GooGone at just about any Home Depot, Loews = or Wal-Mart.

Regards


On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, parkvarieties wrote:

>Any operating list members care to share with me = you secrets for keeping
>your track clean?  I have started to = operate and would like to minimize the
>wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with = antennas.
>Any/all suggestions welcomed.
>
>Frank Brua
>
>
>--------------------------------------------iece-----------= ------------
>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

Will Semanchuk-Enser    Blue Moon = Internet Corp General Manager
www.bluemoon.net        = Internet Access & Web Hosting
www.railfan.net        = Railfan Network Services


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C35CFA.88D02E70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:52:20 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: Des Plaines/Centralia Car Shops P85br coaches Well, the news keeps getting better. The DesPlaines parts will certainly help upgrade my scratch built models. Although I don't think I will ever be able to approach the level of detail on those beautiful pre-production samples they showed at Springfield 3 years ago. I may b b.hTR car if the price is right, and await the kits for a fleet. The news of the trucks is a surprise and I will certainly be interested in those for several cars I have built. BTW The "awful" news was the implication that kits would never be available. One can hardly fault DesPlaines for attacking what they perceive as the largest market first. If they fail to make a profit from these cars, we will never see anything, kits, parts, or RTR. But I still anxiously await the kits. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ron Sebastian wrote: > > After the awful news from Jerry yesterday, I asked DesPlaines about HO > > P85s as kits. Here is their response. So do we want wait and pray, or > > do I scratch build a few more? I've scratchbuilt 4 so far. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.or > > I guess I missed the "awful news" from yesterday, but most around here think > the release of the long awaited P85br is pretty good. Sure looks good behind > the Broadyway G. > > Scratchbuilding is an art and my hat is off to anyone so inclined. Wish I had > the skills. Our Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Cars Shops HO P85 will probably > be no competition for a scratchbuilt model, however some of the underbody > details and trucks may be of some value to the scratchbuilder. > > The all new diecast trucks should be available for sale in about 45 days and I > suspect some of the seperate undebody details such as water tanks, compressor, > condenser, battery boxes, amplidyne generator and others will show up shortly > after the assembled cars. > > Ron Sebastian > Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops > 1468 Lee Street > Des Plaines, IL 60018 > 1-847-297-2118 fax: 847-297-4976 > www.desplaineshobbies.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Des Plaines/Centralia Car Shops P85br coaches Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:10 -0500 Ron, At least it would be nice if the RTR model came without a glued on coupler draft gear box and glued in coupler, and with screws so that one could easilty remove the trucks. -----Original Message----- From: Ron Sebastian [mailto:dphobbies@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:43 AM To: Andrew S. Miller Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Des Plaines/Centralia Car Shops P85br coaches > After the awful news from Jerry yesterday, I asked DesPlaines about HO > P85s as kits. Here is their response. So do we want wait and pray, or > do I scratch build a few more? I've scratchbuilt 4 so far. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.or I guess I missed the "awful news" from yesterday, but most around here think the release of the long awaited P85br is pretty good. Sure looks good behind the Broadyway G. Scratchbuilding is an art and my hat is off to anyone so inclined. Wish I had the skills. Our Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Cars Shops HO P85 will probably be no competition for a scratchbuilt model, however some of the underbody details and trucks may be of some value to the scratchbuilder. The all new diecast trucks should be available for sale in about 45 days and I suspect some of the seperate undebody details such as water tanks, compressor, condenser, battery boxes, amplidyne generator and others will show up shortly after the assembled cars. Ron Sebastian Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines, IL 60018 1-847-297-2118 fax: 847-297-4976 www.desplaineshobbies.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Cleaning Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:41:18 -0400 Guys, You need to invest in some Wahl Clipper Oil. It is available at most barber and beauty shops, also Micro Mark sells it. Clean your track in whatever fashion you feel is best for you. After the track is clean spread a few drops of Wahl oil on the rail head for about 12". Run a locomotive, or a train over the track and around all the cleaned track on the layout. If you have a large layout you can add a few more drops at distant locations from the original spot. The train will spread the oil evenly on all the tracks it travels. My H O layout is in a partially finished basement with a PRR Cabin Car coal stove for heat. I have been modeling in "O"Scale(2-rail)now and don't run the H O as much as I used to. The Wahl Oil is unbelievable. The railroad didn't turn a wheel for approx. 3 months. I went down to run the trains after all this time and everything ran flawlessly. Some people are rather reluctant to put "oil" on their tracks, but this stuff is as thin as water and doesn't affect traction at all, nor does it react with plastic wheel sets. I clean the track and do the Wahl thing maybe twice a year. Never have any problems. Give it a try! Buzz (P.S. It works great for "O"Scale and Lionel too.) -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 9:54 AM To: Lewis J. Matt PhD Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Cleaning On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 09:35 AM, Lewis J. Matt PhD wrote: > I periodically clean all trackwork with isopropyl alcohol and a muslin > pad, > then lubricate the tops of the rail with TV tuner oil and run it > around with > a loco. I clean all wheels at the time I clean the track with > alcohol. I > clean wheels by rolling my stock over alcohol saturated cloths laid on > the > rails. I do locos the same way, but power them remotely. I just purchased a Clean Machine from Tony's ( http://www.ttx-dcc.com/products/ttxexclusive_cmx.htm ). Haven't used it yet -- will in a week or so -- but they make it in both HO and N. Real heavy car!!! The instructions say you can use any cleaner, but for a real good clean they recommend acetone or nail polish remover (which is actually acetone based, normally). Will be happy to report after I do my cleaning. My cleaning is pending hookup of a few more wires, then vacuuming may main level, a helix, and a staging area that has been under construction for about 18 months. Only have about six more wire hookups and then I'm ready to rock-n-roll...finally! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:51:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] PRR Employee records List members Is there an on-line data base where one can check for any records of a former PRR employee? I am trying to help a man from Italy find anything he can on his great-grandfather, who emigrated to the States and worked for the Pennsy in the 1920's. Thanks. Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kenny Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:01:53 -0400 Frankford Junction east of Shore tower up to the Bustleton branch, were there was the Bleigh St. yard. And beyond that to Morrisville. This area is still active with freights so you could go visit and see first-hand the switching operations. The Bustleton branch itself my little slice of heaven, I live right near it and chase the local on my days off. Frankford Junction yard offers some action during the weekends after like 3:00pm when trains running for Pavonia in Camden make set-outs and pick-ups, then the yard switchers sort the new arrivals as Amtrak and Septa zips by on the NEC. Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:40 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Model railroad thoughts and questions I definitely want to model the corridor somewhere between Zoo and Trenton. My original thoughts were to selectively compress the area on two levels with a dogbone layout and sling clockers and through freights run by towers in addition to locals. I am beginning to form an idea that I need help with as an alternative. I figure that a much more detailed and prototypical run could be made by seriously modeling a very small portion of this area. the idea forming is to run the railroad diagonaly across the basement from one corner to the other and have either a dogbone or a round and round with the staging behind the visible portion in the point of the triangle it creates. I could still run the volume through the area but what I need is an area that would have a yard and some fairly heavy local traffic so that I could do more than watch the trains go round. Any thoughts as to the concept or a specific area to model? It would certainly minimize the maintenance aspect over a two level railroad. The area around N. Philly appears to have the most potential initially since all passenger trains stopped there. The N. Phl. Tower operator could act as dispatcher. Margie yard is nearby. I could also run PRSL traffic. Local industry could be a problem. I don't think there are industrial branches or areas like Holmeburg offers. Interchange traffic would benonexistant in the N. Phl. area. If a 50' length could be done it would equal about 8/10 of a mile in HO and allow lots of room for operators and operation in real time rather than fast time. I suspect I will still need to selectively compress the yard area although much of that could be hidden in the staging area and some sidings but it could work. With the staging area behind the visible portion I could also put MP54's out the Chestnut Hill line. An engine terminal would be out of the question. I'm sure I have missed something and haven't thought it all through yet. Thanks for any input or suggestions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:27:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] P85 --part1_44.33fa499b.2c63f412_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I missed something about the Des Plains coaches. What is the surprise with the trucks for this car? Thank you, Evan Leisey --part1_44.33fa499b.2c63f412_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   I missed something about the Des Plains coaches= .   What is the surprise with the trucks for this car?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
 --part1_44.33fa499b.2c63f412_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Employee records Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:36:29 -0400 Re: Is there an on-line data base where one can check for any records of a former PRR employee? Nothing on line, finding out information on former employees is difficult at best. Previously posted by Chris Baer at the Hagley. "The only two places that have large bodies of PRR employee records are Temple University and the Pennsylvania State Archives. These are files from the Voluntary Relief Dept., and each institution has only part of the files. The regular employee files from the Personnel Dept. and/or the individual operating departments, plus a large number of VRD files, were destroyed. VRD files were given sequential numbers in the order in which they were opened, rather like social security numbers. They are not arranged alphabetically, and it may be very difficult to locate files by surname. The institutions' rationale in saving the records was to have a sociological sample of railroad employee work histories that could be used for statistical purposes, not individual genealogies. Likewise, the PRR arranged the files for the purpose of keeping tabs on sick and death benefits, not genealogical research. Unless the PRR's own indexes were preserved, it would be almost impossible to search the files for an individual short of looking at every file. If you don't know where on the PRR they worked or when, that makes it even more difficult. Although I don't know for certain, my suspicion is that neither Temple nor the Pennsylvania State Archives has sufficient staff time available to do research on individual requests. Most archival institutions have fixed policies governing such situations, ranging from a flat out "no such service" to time limits and fee schedules." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:36:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR Employee records Re: Is there an on-line data base where one can check for any records of a former PRR employee? Nothing on line, finding out information on former employees is difficult at best. Previously posted by Chris Baer at the Hagley. "The only two places that have large bodies of PRR employee records are Temple University and the Pennsylvania State Archives. These are files from the Voluntary Relief Dept., and each institution has only part of the files. The regular employee files from the Personnel Dept. and/or the individual operating departments, plus a large number of VRD files, were destroyed. VRD files were given sequential numbers in the order in which they were opened, rather like social security numbers. They are not arranged alphabetically, and it may be very difficult to locate files by surname. The institutions' rationale in saving the records was to have a sociological sample of railroad employee work histories that could be used for statistical purposes, not individual genealogies. Likewise, the PRR arranged the files for the purpose of keeping tabs on sick and death benefits, not genealogical research. Unless the PRR's own indexes were preserved, it would be almost impossible to search the files for an individual short of looking at every file. If you don't know where on the PRR they worked or when, that makes it even more difficult. Although I don't know for certain, my suspicion is that neither Temple nor the Pennsylvania State Archives has sufficient staff time available to do research on individual requests. Most archival institutions have fixed policies governing such situations, ranging from a flat out "no such service" to time limits and fee schedules." Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Employee records List members Is there an on-line data base where one can check for any records of a former PRR employee? I am trying to help a man from Italy find anything he can on his great-grandfather, who emigrated to the States and worked for the Pennsy in the 1920's. Thanks. Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:01:23 -0500 From: Ron Sebastian Subject: Re: [PRR] Des Plaines/Centralia Car Shops P85br coaches The cars will come with a Kadee #26 couplers installed. I'm afraid at this point, a tooling change to a screw cover draft gear would only delay the project several more months and increase tooling costs with probable increase in unit costs. Ron Des Plaines/Centralia "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > Ron, > > At least it would be nice if the RTR model came without a glued on coupler > draft gear box and glued in coupler, and with screws so that one could > easilty remove the trucks. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Sebastian [mailto:dphobbies@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:43 AM > To: Andrew S. Miller > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Des Plaines/Centralia Car Shops P85br coaches > > > After the awful news from Jerry yesterday, I asked DesPlaines about HO > > P85s as kits. Here is their response. So do we want wait and pray, or > > do I scratch build a few more? I've scratchbuilt 4 so far. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.or > > I guess I missed the "awful news" from yesterday, but most around here think > the release of the long awaited P85br is pretty good. Sure looks good > behind > the Broadyway G. > > Scratchbuilding is an art and my hat is off to anyone so inclined. Wish I > had > the skills. Our Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Cars Shops HO P85 will > probably > be no competition for a scratchbuilt model, however some of the underbody > details and trucks may be of some value to the scratchbuilder. > > The all new diecast trucks should be available for sale in about 45 days and > I > suspect some of the seperate undebody details such as water tanks, > compressor, > condenser, battery boxes, amplidyne generator and others will show up > shortly > after the assembled cars. > > Ron Sebastian > Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops > 1468 Lee Street > Des Plaines, IL 60018 > 1-847-297-2118 fax: 847-297-4976 > www.desplaineshobbies.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Ron Sebastian Des Plaines Hobbies 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines, IL 60018 1-847-297-2118 fax: 847-297-4976 www.desplaineshobbies.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Employee records Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:04:27 +0000 In the information that I was unable to post yesterday regarding the National Archives records the National Archives indicated that they had employee information including names in their ICC files. I do not know the extent of this but it was a specific comment regarding a frequently asked question about railroad employees. Apparently they do have some information to allow this type of research. They also listed the section of the records where it could be found. > Re: Is there an on-line data base where one can check for any records of > a former PRR employee? > > Nothing on line, finding out information on former employees is > difficult at best. > > Previously posted by Chris Baer at the Hagley. > > "The only two places that have large bodies of PRR employee records are > Temple University and the Pennsylvania State Archives. These are files > from the Voluntary Relief Dept., and each institution has only part of > the files. The regular employee files from the Personnel Dept. and/or > the individual operating departments, plus a large number of VRD files, > were destroyed. VRD files were given sequential numbers in the order in > which they were opened, rather like social security numbers. They are > not arranged alphabetically, and it may be very difficult to locate > files by surname. The institutions' rationale in saving the records was > to have a sociological sample of railroad employee work histories that > could be used for statistical purposes, not individual genealogies. > Likewise, the PRR arranged the files for the purpose of keeping tabs on > sick and death benefits, not genealogical research. Unless the PRR's > own indexes were > preserved, it would be almost impossible to search the files for an > individual short of looking at every file. If you don't know where on > the PRR they worked or when, that makes it even more difficult. > Although I don't know for certain, my suspicion is that neither Temple > nor the Pennsylvania State Archives has sufficient staff time available > to do research on individual requests. Most archival institutions have > fixed policies governing such situations, ranging from a flat out "no > such > service" to time limits and fee schedules." > > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] genealogical information Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:17:01 +0000 Here is the question and answer from the National Archives. Is there genealogical information available in the National Archives concerning railroad employees? II.11 The main sources of documentation are included in the Records of the Railroad Retirement Board (Record Group 184). The administrative records of the Board are in the custody of the National Archives -Great Lakes Region. However, the railroad employee pension case files are still in the custody of the Railroad Retirement Board. These files include documentation containing personal information for railroad employees whose service ended between 1937 and 1972. A researcher must contact the Railroad Retirement Board directly to gain access to these files. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:21:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Employee records In a message dated 8/7/03 2:11:53 PM, ndbprr@att.net writes: << n the information that I was unable to post yesterday regarding the National Archives records the National Archives indicated that they had employee information including names in their ICC files. I do not know the extent of this but it was a specific comment regarding a frequently asked question about railroad employees. Apparently they do have some information to allow this type of research. They also listed the section of the records where it could be found. >> ******************** But, they asked you not to identify where these records could be found? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Employee records Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:35:21 -0400 Ron, PRR kept most of its employee records at the location where the employee worked. When I worked for PRR in New Orleans, I was surprised to find that the employee records dating back to around 1933 were in a drawer in the local sales office. We pitched them out for all who weren't still employed. These records were kept on a 5x8 card form, whose number I don't recall. It amazes me that people will ask for century old employee records, and even 150 year old records of tickets sold. People didn't consider it necessary to keep those records back then! Every other week, we sent a Time Paid For and Not Worked Report in to Philadelphia, which was used to cut paychecks. Since everyone was on salary, we joked about this, but the boss said it was to track vacation time taken. The Railroad Retirement Board may have the records, but it won't divulge them for privacy reasons. But, for the 1920's, I doubt if they even have them. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" To: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 1:51 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Employee records > List members > > Is there an on-line data base where one c----heck for > any records of a former PRR employee? I am trying to > help a man from Italy find anything he can on his > great-grandfather, who emigrated to the States and > worked for the Pennsy in the 1920's. > > Thanks. > > Ron Di Orio > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] genealogical information Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:35:18 -0400 RE: Here is the question and answer from the National Archives......These files include documentation containing personal information for railroad employees whose service ended between 1937 and 1972. A researcher must contact the Railroad Retirement Board directly to gain access to these files. As Don pointed out the RRB is at: http://www.rrb.gov/geneal.html Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:57:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C35CFC.A49136C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is the title of the recent book about the worklife of the subject = on the PRR ?? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C35CFC.A49136C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is the title of the recent book = about=20 the worklife of the subject on the PRR ??
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C35CFC.A49136C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:04:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, L. Heintz wrote: > What is the title of the recent book about the worklife of the subject > on the PRR ?? Set Up Running, by (someone) Orr about his father Oscar? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:11:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR Employee records I have a limited roster of engine service employees of the New Jersey Division (Trenton/WJ&S/ACRR) until 1933 if anyone needs helpocating an engineer or fireman Boomer "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:45:24 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, L. Heintz wrote: > > > What is the title of the recent book about the worklife of the subject > > on the PRR ?? > > Set Up Running, by (someone) Orr about his father Oscar? it's "Set Up Running" by the late John W. Orr concerning his father, O. (Oscar) P. Orr. Get to your nearest bookstore or library and get this book. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:04:37 -0400 RE: "Set Up Running" by the late John W. Orr..... Get to your nearest bookstore or library and get this book. Actually your best deal if you like to collect books may be at Amazon. COM for $26.95. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:42:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] GGI Markers From: Gary Rowe Is it true that the marker lamps at each end of the locomotive operated in either red or amber color? I assume that red would be used at the end of the locomotive which is operating at the rear of a train, but what about amber? And, why no white or green? Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] GGI Markers Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:54:37 -0400 Gary, A marker with three lenses would display either yellow or red to the side and opposite the direction it was pointed. So, while "classification" lights on the front showed white or green to the front, they displayed yellow or red to the side and rear. Same with the rear marker, red to the rear, yellow or red to the sides and front - yellow would be preferred so it could be determined from a distance whether or not it was on the same track. Gregg Mahlkov . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Rowe" To: "Pennsy" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 5:42 PM Subject: [PRR] GGI Markers > Is it true that the marker lamps at each end of the locomotive operated in > either red or amber color? I assume that red would be used at the end of > the locomotive which is operating at the rear of a train, but what about > amber? And, why no white or green? Thank you. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:23:26 -0500 Also "Firing on the Pennsy" by Paul C. Dietz. Gateway Press, Inc. Cover price $12.95, $2.00 shipping. 97 page softcover. Interesting anecdotal writing. Among others, he fired on N2, Q2, T1, H10, etc. Orders to: Dietz Publishing Company P.O. Box 1237 Beverly, OH 45715 The Orr book is also interesting. A larger, hardcover book. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 4:04 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. > RE: "Set Up Running" by the late John W. Orr..... Get to your nearest > bookstore or library and get this > book. > > Actually your best deal if you like to collect books may be at Amazon. > COM for $26.95. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. Another great book by a retired PRR men is "Firing on the Pennsy". If you want to know what it's like to ride a T1 or a Q2, then this book is for you! Hope this help. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] (Roster of Engineers) PRR Employee records List I have a few 'Roster of Engineers,Firemmen & Hostlers" for the Harrisburg Div.,Eastern Region. Also have a few for "brakemen,conductors,and switchtenders" in the same division. I may be able to locate that type of employee if anyone is looking. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] P85 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:32:31 -0400

Can someone please provide a short history of the P85's on the Pennsy? I would like to know when they appeared, what time period the version being released is appropriate for, and how many Pennsy had. I am just starting to learn about passenger cars on the Pennsy, I usually stick to locomotives.
Thanks,
Eric
 
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:52:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO Scale P85's From: Jerry @ Pennsy Update since earlier today. DPH contacted me and indicated you HO scalers will get 12 road numbers of P85's!!! Geez, IM's been telling me only 4 in N scale. I'm envious! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sebastian Ron" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale P85's Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:7:58 -0500 > Update since earlier today. DPH contacted me and indicated you HO > scalers will get 12 road numbers of P85's!!! Geez, IM's been telling me > only 4 in N scale. I'm envious! > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry: I thought you contacted me today. Anyway I am coming out of my shell. I'm an introvert you know. FWIW I sent artwork off today for 24 numbers for the HO cars. 12 for the first run and if those are accepted, 12 for the second run. I have to get mine you know. I finally put a note on the Des Plaines Hobbies web page under the Centralia Car Shops icon a little blurb about the P85's. That is actually the name they will be sold under. Maybe a picture or two will show up in a day or two. Ron Sebastian Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale P85's Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:32:56 -0700 While I can sympathize with guys who'd like to have a P85 kit to work from instead of disassembling a ready-to-run model (as I've had to do with all Athearn RTRs I've encountered), it's worth remembering that there's more than one way to a P85. Brass Car Sides has a P85 side set that can be grafted to a Rivarossi coach -- the quality of the finished model, I would guess, would be close to the Des Plaines P85, depending mostly on the builder's skill in attaching the sides and painting the model. So I have some, but limited, sympathy on this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sebastian Ron" To: "PRR-talk" ; "Jerry @ Pennsy" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale P85's > > Update since earlier today. DPH contacted me and indicated you HO > > scalers will get 12 road numbers of P85's!!! Geez, IM's been telling me > > only 4 in N scale. I'm envious! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry: > > I thought you contacted me today. Anyway I am coming out of my shell. > I'm an introvert you know. > > FWIW I sent artwork off today for 24 numbers for the HO cars. 12 for the > first run and if those are accepted, 12 for the second run. I have to get > mine you know. > > I finally put a note on the Des Plaines Hobbies web page under the > Centralia Car Shops icon a little blurb about the P85's. That is actually > the name they will be sold under. Maybe a picture or two will show up in a > day or two. > > Ron Sebastian > Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sebastian Ron" Subject: [PRR] PRR HO Scale P85's Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:9:32 -0500 > While I can sympathize with guys who'd like to have a P85 kit to work from > instead of disassembling a ready-to-run model (as I've had to do with all > Athearn RTRs I've encountered), it's worth remembering that there's more > than one way to a P85. Brass Car Sides has a P85 side set that can be > grafted to a Rivarossi coach -- the quality of the finished model, I would > guess, would be close to the Des Plaines P85, depending mostly on the > builder's skill in attaching the sides and painting the model. I wish someone whould have pointed this out to me some years ago. I could have save a bundle of money, lots of time and had highly detailed coaches had I known about brass car sides, especially if they are as highly detailed as the plastic car that we are doing. Oh well, we are committed, so I might as well plod on. Ron Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:15:18 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR HO Scale P85's Ron: The brass car sides kits are for advanced modelers. They are beyond the skill level of a lot of us. Thank you for making the RTR's for us. Jeff Warner >I wish someone whould have pointed this out to me some years ago. I could >have save a bundle of money, lots of time and had highly detailed coaches >had I known about brass car sides, especially if they are as highly detailed >as the plastic car that we are doing. Oh well, we are committed, so I might >as well plod on. > >Ron >Des Plaines Hobbies/Centralia Car Shops > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:55:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Homasote From: Gary Rowe I'll embarrass myself with this post because I'm over 2500 messages behind in reading this list. But I have to weigh in with my own experience on the homasote discussion that was going on last February. I use 3/4 inch A/C plywood for sub roadbed. I cut homasote to the width of the crossties using a saber saw (outdoors -- homasote creates dust! ). I glue the homasote to the plywood using Elmer's glue (white) and immediately drill holes at the track centers about every 3 to 4 inches. I screw in 1 1/2 inch number 8 screws and allow the glue to dry for 24 to 48 hours. Then I remove the screws. I traced the PRR track profile from the 1912 PRR standard plans on the bottom of a sheet of .030 Evergreen styrene and cut away the bottom of the sheet to create a template. The angle in the template at the top of the ballast slope and a notch at the track centerline gives me two ways to guide the template along the homasote to compensate for any imperfections in cutting the material. I mix hydrocal in small batches and distribute it along the side of the homasote with a putty knife. I then run my template along the homasote, creating a perfect profile, from the correct angle for the ballast slope to the cinder ballast, rip-rap, or ditch along the trackside. I also use the putty knife to place a little hydrocal in each hole left in the roadbed after I remove the screws. I NEVER touch paint to the homasote, believing that it presents a better surface for gluing the track if left unpainted. I DO, however, paint the ballast slope using a dark brown paint so that any ballast that may loosen over time won't reveal white spots. Where I have double track and four track mainline sections I cut the homasote to the HO scale width of the outside crossties and sculpt the hydrocal on the outside tracks only. I mark the scale widths between the tracks with a pencil line along the outside of the crossties of each track, then cut a "V" in the homasote using a box cutter with a sharp blade. I leave the surface between tracks level where I mark the places where I will build crossovers and turnouts. Next, I glue down flextrack using Mod Podge Matte-Mat, available at most craft stores. I simply brush it on with an old paint brush. I place push pins between the crossties every inch or so to hold down the track until the glue drives, 24 to 48 hours. This glue has less holding power than Elmer's glue. It holds the track beautifully but it also allows me to pry the track off the roadbed if I want to reposition it without damaging the flextrack. This method also makes it very easy to build up the best-looking ballasted track I've ever built. I start with the outer cinder slope, using wet glue on the cinders distributed with an eye dropper. Using a teaspoon and gravity, I let the ballast slide down the ballast slope until it builds up to the level of the crossties. I then spoon ballast down the track centerline, distribute it with a very soft 1/2 inch brush and drip on the glue mixture. The oldest track on the layout was laid nearly ten years ago using this method. Despite the sub-tropical summer climate of Atlanta (my basement isn't air conditioned though it remains cool) I have NEVER had a problem with moisture, warping, shifting or any of the other failures that plague model railroaders. My hand-laid turnouts stay in perfect gauge and operate trouble-free. My curves are super-elevated using a method that stresses the sub roadbed by angling the risers. I have never had problems in the curves, either. This method may sound complicated because of the length of this description but, I promise you, it's very easy and the results make me feel like I'm standing trackside along the Middle Division with my grandfather again! -- Gary Rowe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:38:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 --part1_174.1ecdf8f3.2c648335_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A significant variety of lightweight coaches from various builders were classified as P85. The forthcoming HO-scale models being discussed recently are class P85bR reclining seat long-distance coaches. Each of these cars seated only 44 passengers. The cars were ordered in 1946 then delivered in 1947 from two builders: Altoona built 70 cars (#4100 - 4169) and ACF built the remaining 24 cars (#4068 - 4091). These particular coaches were intended to upgrade long-distance trains that offered coach accommodations. They featured extra-large restrooms and initially saw service on trinas such as the Jeffersonian, Trail Blazer and such. The cars apparently didn't hold up well and all were retired then scrapped by the mid-1960's. Photos and other details about these cars can be found in: "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" - Wayner "The Passenger Car Library, Volume 4 - Mid-Atlantic Railroads" - Randall "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Volume 1:Coaches" - Liljestrand/Sweetland Chris Baker #1918 --part1_174.1ecdf8f3.2c648335_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A significant variety of lightweight coaches from vari= ous builders were classified as P85.  The forthcoming HO-scale models b= eing discussed recently are class P85bR reclining seat long-distance coaches= .  Each of these cars seated only 44 passengers.  The cars were or= dered in 1946 then delivered in 1947 from two builders:  Altoona built=20= 70 cars (#4100 - 4169) and ACF built the remaining 24 cars (#4068 - 4091).
These particular coaches were intended to upgrade long-distance trains that=20= offered coach accommodations.  They featured extra-large restrooms and=20= initially saw service on trinas such as the Jeffersonian, Trail Blazer and s= uch.

The cars apparently didn't hold up well and all were retired then scrapped b= y the mid-1960's.  Photos and other details about these cars can be fou= nd in:

"Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" - Wayner
"The Passenger Car Library, Volume 4 - Mid-Atlantic Railroads" - Randall
"Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Volume 1:Coaches" - Lilje= strand/Sweetland


Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_174.1ecdf8f3.2c648335_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:29:53 -0400 Another resource is the computer data base at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona. I have some of those old employee cards somewhere in my collection for chefs and porters etc. I had card files at Northumberland that went back to the early 1900s when a Machinist got paid 15 cents per hour! Should have packed a few up as collector's items. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 5:05 PM To: prrbill@comcast.net Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Recent book by retired PRR man. RE: "Set Up Running" by the late John W. Orr..... Get to your nearest bookstore or library and get this book. Actually your best deal if you like to collect books may be at Amazon. COM for $26.95. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:13:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain/Centralia P85 Coaches -- Photo!!! From: Jerry Britton The N scale P85's are indeed listed in the August releases from InterMountain. You can see a pic here... http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/images/ccs6530.jpg Thank you Marty (IM) and Ron (DPH/CCS) for working together on these. They are sorely needed! Please start planning that second run in N scale!!! HO scalers, you'll have to wait another month or so, I'm told...but you'll get 12 numbers first time around! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Growing the Society Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:28:38 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C35DB9.5B6E6400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageListers & Al, I've been reading the many thoughts and posts on the dilemma of our = shrinking organization devoted to a railroad that's been gone for over = 30 years. Seems to me we're looking at the following as ways to correct = it: 1. Decide to mount a major membership campaign. I've seen = organizations from churches to small local historical societies get = amazing results by deciding to focus on the problem and going after it = in a logical, well thought out manner, along with some professional = advice. 2. Marketing - always important. I'm not sure just what we do in this = regard, but it seems to me to be vitally important. 3. Find out what other railroad historical societies are doing and = adopt the better ideas from those that are being successful. Santa Fe = and NYO&W were mentioned as possibilities. Which ones are growing = despite being devoted to a long fallen flag? 4. Continue to survey this list and the membership for ideas - we have = some very bright folks available to us who can help and who would be = delighted to help, even if it's only helping develop ideas and a = program. 5. I was born in 1940, and while I was around, didn't railfan and = wasn't even exposed to the PRR during its existence. I railfanned the = enemy, among others, as I lived near them: NYC, NKP, Erie, B&O. I = became interested in Pennsy when my son was old enough to be interested = in building a model railroad. We researched it together, and settled on = the Buffalo Line from Williamsport through Renovo to Emporium, in the = steam era. He wasn't even around for any of that! Yet through the = many PRR videos, the Keystone, the many PRR books, etc, I feel as though = I was there - I can see, hear, even smell those PRR steamers. We = probably have more historical information available than any other = railroad. 6. I'm not sure what the BOD/Society is doing right now relative to = increasing membership. However, some awfully good things have been = happening (e-Store, The Keystone Modeler, Keystone on-line/CD project, = etc.) I'm sure our BOD isn't asleep at the switch on this one - I'm = just not personally up to speed. Just one SPF's thoughts - hope they help. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C35DB9.5B6E6400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Listers & Al,
 
I've been reading the many thoughts and posts on = the=20 dilemma of our shrinking organization devoted to a railroad that's been = gone for=20 over 30 years.  Seems to me we're looking at the following as ways = to=20 correct it:
 
1.  Decide to mount a major membership=20 campaign.  I've seen organizations from churches to small local = historical=20 societies get amazing results by deciding to focus on the problem and = going=20 after it in a logical, well thought out manner, along with some = professional=20 advice.
 
2.  Marketing - always important.  I'm = not sure=20 just what we do in this regard, but it seems to me to be vitally=20 important.
 
3.  Find out what other railroad historical = societies=20 are doing and adopt the better ideas from those that are being = successful. =20 Santa Fe and NYO&W were mentioned as possibilities.  Which ones = are=20 growing despite being devoted to a long fallen flag?
 
4.  Continue to survey this list and = the =20 membership for ideas - we have some very bright folks available to us = who can=20 help and who would be delighted to help, even if it's only helping = develop ideas=20 and a program.
 
5.  I was born in 1940, and while I was = around,=20 didn't railfan and wasn't even exposed to the PRR during its = existence.  I=20 railfanned the enemy, among others, as I lived near them:  NYC, = NKP, Erie,=20 B&O.  I became interested in Pennsy when my son was old enough = to be=20 interested in building a model railroad.  We researched it = together, and=20 settled on the Buffalo Line from Williamsport through Renovo to = Emporium, in the=20 steam era.  He wasn't even around for any of that!   Yet = through=20 the many PRR videos, the Keystone, the many PRR books, etc, I feel as = though I=20 was there - I can see, hear, even smell those PRR steamers.  We = probably=20 have more historical information available than any other = railroad.
 
6.  I'm not sure what the BOD/Society is = doing right=20 now relative to increasing membership.  However, some awfully good = things=20 have been happening (e-Store, The Keystone Modeler, Keystone on-line/CD = project,=20 etc.)  I'm sure our Bhe "sn't asleep at the switch on this one - = I'm just=20 not personally up to speed.
 
Just one SPF's thoughts - hope they = help.
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C35DB9.5B6E6400-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia maps Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:08:47 +0000 Does anyone know the proper Sanborn, valuation or USGS map numbers for the PRR in Philadelphia? Primary Interest is N. Phl. station to Frankford Junction. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:56:04 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] RAIL FAN QUESTION I know this is very much off the usual subjects but my curiosity has got the better of me. NORFOLK SOUTHERN has many old auto rack cars in the old BETHELEM STEEL plant in STEELTON, PA. I go by there every day and see little activity with these cars. Can anyone tell me why they are there? Possibilities . . . Racks being removed and scraped . . . Entire car being scraped (No evidence this is the case) . . . Cars being refurbished (I've not seen any newly rebuilt cars coming by the AMTRAK station to suggest this) . . . Cars just being stored (I doubt this is the case since some of the cars appear in various stages of disassembly) THANKS to anyone who might know and passes the info on to me!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Kunchick" Subject: [PRR] Membership Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:01:11 -0400 Well Mates, All this talk about membership, after about 5 years on this list and enjoying everything and everyone. I finally went to the e-Store and order my membership. 8-). Not the age group we're looking for pushing 60 LOL. Frederick H. Kunchick Jr. GSCS USN Retired Member: Strasburg Model Railroad Club http://www.trainweb.org/smrc/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Trust Plates Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:21:03 -0400 Hi All, I just found the sample S Scale PRR Trust plate I am having made for my X29 project. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/trust_plate_sample.jpg Due to the size, it was AWOL for almost a month. Here is the company that is doing them for me. http://www.mlwservices.ca His CNR Pacific took best in show at the recent NASG convention. The BEAUTY of using Andy Malette for etchings etc. is EVERYTHING is already cut to size when you get it. There is no filing or grinding of the little runner nibs. They are ready to go! We are S Scalers, however Andy is also in business. He expressed an interest in doing the PRR trust plates in other scales. I have contracted with him to do the plates with at least 10 different trust letter series. That should cover MANY different car classes in freight and passenger. His email is maletta@tcdsb.org Who want to be the first to get them in HO and O Scale? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:43:13 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Membership Fred, Welcome aboard. I've been a member since '75 and I've enjoyed every minute of it. If possible, try to attend one of the annual meetings. Also, keep and eye out for a local chapter in your area. Ken Meyer Modeling Baltimore during the mid '40s Fred Kunchick wrote: >Well Mates, > >All this talk about membership, after about 5 years on this list and >enjoying everything and everyone. >I finally went to the e-Store and order my membership. 8-). >Not the age group we're looking for pushing 60 LOL. > > > >Frederick H. Kunchick Jr. >GSCS USN Retired > >Member: Strasburg Model Railroad Club >http://www.trainweb.org/smrc/ > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:41:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] N-Scale P85bR <<<< The N scale P85's are indeed listed in the August releases from InterMountain. You can see a pic here... http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/images/ccs6530.jpg >>>> Maybe (I hope) this is a "pre-production" photo of the n-scale version and this message is not necessary. But, for a retail price of $39 a piece (and since someone mentioned "highly detailed"), I feel validated in offering the following criticism...if for no other reason, maybe the next run can be corrected. Altoona and ACF built P85bR are distinctly different. The two easiest spotting details (set aside the road numbers and ripply sheet metal) are the underframe mechanical equipment arrangement and triangular sheet metal box above the diaphragms. The pictured n-scale car has an Altoona-built road number, with AC&F underframe arrangement. In addition, there are no distinctive ventilators on each end of the roof. In N-scale, there is nearly a $20 difference in the price of the kit vs R-T-R. Thats prough to make me wait and see / listen. I still have a P85bR kit or two to build. These are beautiful cars, and worth doing right. Regards; Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:50:48 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR HO Scale P85's Ron, Just glanced at a rather small photo of the car and I have to say you did a fantastic job on the paint and lettering. ATATBOY! Gize, Ron has shared with me the progress and history of this car as I stopped in each year during the Sunshine event in Chicago and I knew how damn picky this guys has been about what he has created. Well, I must say my, my Ron you have by Goodness done exactly what you said you would. I am going to be saying my bedtime prayers in my jamies each night for a kit of this some day. I like Andy Miller do like to spend my hobby time building kits and admiring my own efforts... 3^) I'm not saying you haven't created something amazing here or that I won't get one assembled, but... here goes... ...now I lay me down to sleep I pray to heavens my greenbacks I can keep... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:02:24 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Growing the Society RmVsbG93IFNQRidzLi4uCgpCaWxsLCB0b3VjaGVzIG9uIHNldmVyYWwgZ29vZCBwb2ludHMu IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBub3cgd2l0aCBhIHNtYWxsIHNoaWZ0IGluIHRoZSBhc3NvY2lhdGlv biB3aXRoIHJlZ2FyZHMgdG8gdGhlIFRoZSBLZXlzdG9uZSBNb2RlbGVyIHRoZSBzb2NpZXR5 IHdpbGwgZ3Jvdy4gVGhpcyB0eXBlIG9mIGV4cG9zdXJlIHNob3VsZCBnZW5lcmF0ZSBtdWNo IG1vcmUgaW50ZXJlc3Qgd2l0aGluIHRoZSBtb2RlbGluZyBjb21tdW5pdHkgYW5kIHJlYWxs eSBpdCBpcyBhIGZpcnN0LCBJIHdvdWxkIHNheSwgZm9yIGFueSBIaXN0b3JpY2FsIFNvY2ll dHkuIFdlIGFyZSBzZXR0aW5nIGEgdHJlbmQsIGFsYmVpdCBhIHNtYWxsIHN0ZXAsIG1hcmsg bXkgd29yZCB5b3Ugd2lsbCBzZWUgb3RoZXIgZ3JvdXBzIGZvbGxvdy4gS2VlcGluZyB0aGUg bWFnYXppbmUgYW4gSW50ZXJuZXQgYmFzZWQgZm9ybSBvZiBtZWRpYSB3aWxsIGhlbHAga2Vl cCB0aGUgZXhwZW5zZXMgZG93biBhbmQgdGhlIGludGVyZXN0IGhpZ2guIEhhcmQgY29waWVz LCB3ZWxsIHdobydzIHRvIHNheT8gSSBzZWUgaXQgYXMgYW4gZXhwZW5zZSBub3Qgd2l0aHN0 YW5kaW5nIHRoZSByZWFkZXJzaGlwLCB3ZSBoYXZlIGhhcmQgY29weSBtZWRpYSBvdXQgdGhl 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From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] GGI Markers Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:12:05 -0400 Re: So, while "classification" lights on the front showed white or green to the front, they displayed yellow or red to the side and rear. This is not entirely correct. Class lights, mounted on the boiler, showed white or green to the front and side. White for extra train, green for all sections of a train except the last. They did not also function as markers, showing red and yellow (or green) to the rear. Markets were mounted on the pilot beam and showed red to the front (actually the rear when backing up) and green or yellow to the sides, depending on the year. There was a whole complicated set of rules as to when the markers would display green (or yellow) to the rear rather than red. When the class lights went by the boards, markers were moved from the pilot beam to the boiler. Markers were found on tenders and the rear car of a train. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] GGI Markers Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:12:06 -0400 Gents, I realized after I posted my answer the question, subject above, it was specifically about GG1 markers, not steam locomotive class lights and markers. Sorry. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:34:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: [RM-forum] BLI GG1 Bill Weiss said: > I got my GG-1 last Thursday, by mail. It was a unit sealed in its > plastic wrap; new and never out of the box. They do look nice, and > even on DC, sound nice. The only problem is that they don't RUN. It > just sat there and sounded good. After a little push, it moved and > promptly ground the gears after about 2 feet. > > I phoned BLI Friday, and had a nice conversation with Jimmy Hicks. > He explained that he has heard from dealers that there is a defect or > damage on the drives of some units, and the gears are stripped. He > thought that it could come from the protection strip wrapped under > the wheels, but it seems more like poor Chinese manufacturing/quality > control to me. I just got home from a 2 week 3,200 mile "vacation" visiting relatives and mine were waiting. The painted "motor" fired right up, and as soon as I advanced the throttle I knew we were in deep doodoo ! CRUNCH, and then whirrrrrrrrrr, and decidely no motion. The undec "motor" fired right up and off she went...just like advertised. I can tell y'all how to take one of the apart, if'n your in the mood, but I stopped short of getting the gear tower apart to look inside. Unfortuantely, no instructions or drawings were provided with the model to aid in dissassembly (I don't think they want us in there!!) Given that there are TWO drives in each locomotive, I HIGHLY suggest that you check to make sure both drives are working. I'll be calling BLI Monday to see what they would like me to do. I can assure you that I will not be paying return postage (Bill, you need to ask to be reimbursed). I suggest however, that we not flame Broadway!! I too am happy to see their offers, and hope that they understand the need to deal with what has the appearance of a significant problem in an open forthright and timely manner. BTW, I say significant because my unit has TWO bad trannies...the math tells us that the chance of that is the product of the chance of only getting one bad tranny...thus if the chance of a double failure is 1/100, then 1 in 10 units have at least one defective drive.... As for the details, well...the Premier GG1 is obsolete in an instant. Somethings are stunning...like the nearly complete brake rigging and the frame with air line that support the pilot and front truck. The air hoses, grabs etc are also really nice. Some things are missing, like wipers and the steam generator stack is a solid cylinder rather than a hollow stack. The sound is pretty cool, although the "engine noise" will be unimpressive compared to steamers...because it WAS ...the durn things could sneak up on you an kill you if you weren't keeping an eye out! I'll be working on a comprehensive review, perhaps for the PRRT&HS's new internet modeling publication ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Making sense of PRR re-weigh stencils Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:36:24 -0400 Fellow PRR fans: I am trying to get some guidance on PRR re-weigh data. Most cars show a code of the following: Letter P, followed by two or three digit number, then (I assume) date in month (single or double digit) and year. Some have dashes, some not, spacing can vary also. For example (taken off of actual photos): P-712 6 54 P-57 10-55 P 94- 4-59 P-62 9-61 P2434-63 P-62 11-66 And even PRR cars in PC era: P173-6-68 P64 2 69 You get the idea. I assume that P = PRR, and that the next digits are the shop/scale/location? Now, if someone has a key to the numbers, that would be a HUGE help. Thanks- Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Making sense of PRR re-weigh stencils Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:04:49 +0000 Fred Rea asked: "I am trying to get some guidance on PRR re-weigh data." Fred, the predominant format I've seen in pre-Shadow Keystone photos is PXXX MM-YY PXXX = Track Scale Location MM-YY = Month and Year car was reweighed Leetering variations (dashes, spacing, etc.) seemed to occur more often on Shadow Keystone and later cars than on CK cars. When in doubt, always check a photo. Rob Schoenberg has Track Scale locations from a 1923 CT100E, which is good for almost all of the ones you'll need for the rest of the life of the Pennsy: http://prr.railfan.net/lists/track_scales_1923.html So, for example: P-712 6 54 = Terre Haute, In., New Shop, June 1954 P-57 10-55 = Altoona Pa., WH East Altoona, October 1955 P 94- 4-59 = Baltimore, Md., Canton No. 3 Yard, April 1959 P-62 9-61 = Hollidaysburg, Pa., Eastbound, September 1961 P2434-63 = Shire Oaks, Pa., April 1963 P-62 11-66 = Hollidaysburg, Pa., Eastbound, November 1966 "And even PRR cars in PC era:" P173-6-68 => Anyone have a later CT1000E for the scale codes? June 1968 P64 2 69 - Tyrone, Pa., February 1969 Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:47:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Track Scales --part1_35.3be0a89f.2c67d134_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Along the lines of the question on reweigh markings and the posting of the scale locations. I have two videos that show PRR coal loads being weighed at Weigh Scales (sp?), which does not appear in the posted scale locations listings. This scale was presumably on the Shamokin Br. near the Susquehanna River. It appears that the cars were being weighed without being uncoupled at this location. Does anyone know the location of this scale and the proper spelling of the name?? This may have been only a railroad name and not the name of the Pennsylvania town it was in or near. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_35.3be0a89f.2c67d134_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Along the lines of the question on reweigh mark= ings and the posting of the scale locations.  I have two videos that sh= ow PRR coal loads being weighed at Weigh Scales (sp?), which does not appear= in the posted scale locations listings.  This scale was presumably on=20= the Shamokin Br. near the Susquehanna River.  It appears that the cars=20= were being weighed without being uncoupled at this location.

  Does anyone know the location of this scale and the proper spelling o= f the name??    This may have been only a railroad name and n= ot the name of the Pennsylvania town it was in or near.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_35.3be0a89f.2c67d134_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rwo1361@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:23:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] :PRR employee records --part1_129.2f76e33a.2c67d988_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a list of all engineers and firemen for the Phila Terminal Div. with their start date for engineer and firemen. I found my grandfather on the list. The list contains more than 300 names. --part1_129.2f76e33a.2c67d988_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a list of all engineer= s and firemen for the Phila Terminal Div. with their start date for engineer= and firemen.  I found my grandfather on the list. The list contains mo= re than 300 names. --part1_129.2f76e33a.2c67d988_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Scales (Weigh Scales; Shamokin Branch) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:58:13 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C35F3F.0EE876C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan & List: Indeed, there is (was) a "Weigh Scales" located 16.0 miles up the = Shamokin Branch as indicated on the Northern Division No. 3 Employee = Timetable for 1957, the time-frame of the famous Ore Train. You can = view the Employee Timetable at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html It's listed a few pages in (down, actually) under branches. I didn't = check whether there was actually a scale there, but I'm sure the = Employee Timetable would indicate that somewhere if there was. By the = way, you can download these Employee Timetabeles and track charts, = although they do take up a bit of disk space, and take some time to = download if you don't have broad band. A lot of good info. on this = site! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Track Scales Along the lines of the question on reweigh markings and the posting = of the scale locations. I have two videos that show PRR coal loads = being weighed at Weigh Scales (sp?), which does not appear in the posted = scale locations listings. This scale was presumably on the Shamokin Br. = near the Susquehanna River. It appears that the cars were being weighed = without being uncoupled at this location. Does anyone know the location of this scale and the proper spelling = of the name?? This may have been only a railroad name and not the = name of the Pennsylvania town it was in or near. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C35F3F.0EE876C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan & List:
 
Indeed, there is (was) a "Weigh Scales" located = 16.0 miles=20 up the Shamokin Branch as indicated on the Northern Division No. 3 = Employee=20 Timetable for 1957, the time-frame of the famous Ore Train.  You = can view=20 the Employee Timetable at:
http://prr.deme= ntia.org/documents/documents.html
It's listed a few pages in (down, actually) = under=20 branches.  I didn't check whether there was actually a scale there, = but I'm=20 sure the Employee Timetable would indicate that somewhere if there = was.  By=20 the way, you can download these Employee Timetabeles and track charts, = although=20 they do take up a bit of disk space, and take some time to download if = you don't=20 have broad band.  A lot of good info. on this site!
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 = 12:47=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Track = Scales

  Along the lines of the question on reweigh = markings=20 and the posting of the scale locations.  I have two videos that = show PRR=20 coal loads being weighed at Weigh Scales (sp?), which does not appear = in the=20 posted scale locations listings.  This scale was presumably on = the=20 Shamokin Br. near the Susquehanna River.  It appears that the = cars were=20 being weighed without being uncoupled at this location.

  = Does=20 anyone know the location of this scale and the proper spelling of the=20 name??    This may have been only a railroad name and = not the=20 name of the Pennsylvania town it was in or near.

Thank=20 you,osur
Evan=20 Leisey
RCT&HS  346 = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C35F3F.0EE876C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv brice" Subject: FW: [PRR] Younger Crowd Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:03:46 +1000 Unfortunately, Dominic, people like me who love both the PRR and the Great Western in UK are too busy being revolted by the sight of a beautiful Great Western locomotive repainted in that awful red to think of the links to the PRR. Liked the films, though. Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' PRRT&HS member #6781 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mazoch Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2003 11:12 am To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Younger Crowd Millions of people have seen 2 movies having a passenger train wih red cars pulled by a steam engine with a belpaire boiler. Only problem is, this train is not quite real. Nor is it American. The train I am refering to is the Hogwarts Express from the Harry potter novels/movies. Has anybody thought of pointing out to those fans the connection between that engine's boiler and the PRR. Or the train colour is like PRR's. Two parts of the magic which is PRR....and you don't need awand to enjoy them! Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:03:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Track scale at Weigh Scales, PA The 1923 CT1000 at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/CT1000E_1923.pdf in its list of track scales shows a 300,000 lb 52 foot scale, location code P125, at Weigh Scales on the Sunbury Division. Unfortunately the 1945 CT1000 does not have scale location information. The Geographic Names Information System at http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.gnis_web_query_form knows where Weigh Scales, PA is and will display an aerial photo and a topographic map. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:12:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Scales There was a track scale in service at Weight Scales until the early sixties at least. It was not a weight in motion scale and required cars to be done one at a time. In the sixties there was a RS-11 stationed there. I believe that loaded cars from local load out points were weighted there and then a unit train of sorts was put together and run from there to Norry. If anyone has the Ore Train video of Clarence Weavers teh pat where orders are being hooped up is ar Weight Scales. The track still exists thru Weight Scales as I hi railed it about a month ago. It's now part of the Seda-Cog Shamokin Valley line. ------------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Scales (Weigh Scales; Shamokin Branch) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:50:02 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C35FDD.2D111050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There surely WAS a scale there, at least during my watch there from 1964-1968. We kept an Alco RS-11 stationed there 24/7 even though it didn't work on the weekends. It would wander up into the mines in Shamokin and Mt. Carmel and bring the loads down to Weigh Scales. The Local (S390, as I recall) ran out of Northumberland 5 days a week. Took the empties up to Mt. Carmel and Shamokin and distributed them. Then picked up the loads at Weigh Scales. I seem to recall that the "slush" they picked up west of weigh scales went straight to Shamokin Dam PP&L without being weighed. The Selinsgrove Local to Shamokin Dam only ran MWF and on TTh the same crew went down and serviced the Lykins Branch which had a bunch of bootleg coal miners on it. OK, so go ahead and ask me, "What is a bootleg coal miner?" WDV -----Original Message----- From: William Bigler [mailto:wbigler@stny.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:58 PM To: RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Scales (Weigh Scales; Shamokin Branch) Evan & List: Indeed, there is (was) a "Weigh Scales" located 16.0 miles up the Shamokin Branch as indicated on the Northern Division No. 3 Employee Timetable for 1957, the time-frame of the famous Ore Train. You can view the Employee Timetable at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html It's listed a few pages in (down, actually) under branches. I didn't check whether there was actually a scale there, but I'm sure the Employee Timetable would indicate that somewhere if there was. By the way, you can download these Employee Timetabeles and track charts, although they do take up a bit of disk space, and take some time to download if you don't have broad band. A lot of good info. on this site! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Track Scales Along the lines of the question on reweigh markings and the posting of the scale locations. I have two videos that show PRR coal loads being weighed at Weigh Scales (sp?), which does not appear in the posted scale locations listings. This scale was presumably on the Shamokin Br. near the Susquehanna River. It appears that the cars were being weighed without being uncoupled at this location. Does anyone know the location of this scale and the proper spelling of the name?? This may have been only a railroad name and not the name of the Pennsylvania town it was in or near. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C35FDD.2D111050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
There=20 surely WAS a scale there, at least during my watch there from = 1964-1968. =20 We kept an Alco RS-11 stationed there 24/7 even though it didn't work on = the=20 weekends.  It would wander up into the mines in Shamokin and Mt. = Carmel and=20 bring the loads down to Weigh Scales.
 
The=20 Local (S390, as I recall) ran out of Northumberland 5 days a week.  = Took=20 the empties up to Mt. Carmel and Shamokin and distributed them.  = Then=20 picked up the loads at Weigh Scales.  I seem to recall that the = "slush"=20 they picked up west of weigh scales went straight to Shamokin Dam = PP&L=20 without being weighed.  The Selinsgrove Local to Shamokin Dam only = ran MWF=20 and on TTh the same crew went down and serviced the Lykins Branch which = had a=20 bunch of bootleg coal miners on it.
 
OK, so=20 go ahead and ask me, "What is a bootleg coal miner?"
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: = William Bigler=20 [mailto:wbigler@stny.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 = 12:58=20 PM
To: RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: = Re:=20 [PRR] Track Scales (Weigh Scales; Shamokin = Branch)

Evan & List:
 
Indeed, there is (was) a "Weigh Scales" = located 16.0=20 miles up the Shamokin Branch as indicated on the Northern Division No. = 3=20 Employee Timetable for 1957, the time-frame of the famous Ore = Train.  Yo you can view the Employee Timetable at:
http://prr.deme= ntia.org/documents/documents.html
It's listed a few pages in (down, actually) = under=20 branches.  I didn't check whether there was actually a scale = there, but=20 I'm sure the Employee Timetable would indicate that somewhere if there = was.  By the way, you can download these Employee Timetabeles and = track=20 charts, although they do take up a bit of disk space, and take some = time to=20 download if you don't have broad band.  A lot of good info. on = this=20 site!
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 = 12:47=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Track = Scales

  Along the lines of the question on = reweigh=20 markings and the posting of the scale locations.  I have two = videos=20 that show PRR coal loads being weighed at Weigh Scales (sp?), which = does not=20 appear in the posted scale locations listings.  This scale was=20 presumably on the Shamokin Br. near the Susquehanna River.  It = appears=20 that the cars were being weighed without being uncoupled at this=20 location.

  Does anyone know the location of this scale = and the=20 proper spelling of the name??    This may have been = only a=20 railroad name and not the name of the Pennsylvania town it was in or = near.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 =
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C35FDD.2D111050-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:58:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Weigh Scales --part1_126.2eede09e.2c68ecf7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the information on the scales and Weigh Scales in particular. In the 50's and the early 60's I would bug my dad in to taking me along on inspection trips to all of the Reading's coal region stations, I never knew the PRR's yard just north of Shamokin was Weigh Scales. Thanks again, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_126.2eede09e.2c68ecf7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Thanks to all for the information on the scales= and Weigh Scales in particular.  In the 50's and the early 60's I woul= d bug my dad in to taking me along on inspection trips to all of the Reading= 's coal region stations,  I never knew the PRR's yard just north of Sha= mokin was Weigh Scales.

Thanks again,

Evr-Eneisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_126.2eede09e.2c68ecf7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:06:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? --part1_3a.3ce6861b.2c68eed2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, I ran across a dealer specializing in out of production kits. Three lines of kits offering PRR cars are unfamiliar to me and was wondering if anyone is familiar with them. They are American Beauty, Main Line and Blue Line. I have done many wood, plastic and metal kits plus kitbashing and scratchbuilding so kit building is no problem. I am curious as to the prototype fidelity and quality of parts in these three lines. Many other out of production PRR kits are listed at Jay's Trains. http://www.jaystrains.com/ Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_3a.3ce6861b.2c68eed2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR List,

   I ran across a dealer specializing in out of production kits.&n= bsp; Three lines of kits offering PRR cars are unfamiliar to me and was wond= ering if anyone is familiar with them.  They are American Beauty, Main=20= Line and Blue Line.  I have done many wood, plastic and metal kits plus= kitbashing and scratchbuilding so kit building is no problem.  I am cu= rious as to the prototype fidelity and quality of parts in these three lines= . 

  Many other out of production PRR kits are listed at Jay's Trains.&nbs= p;  http://www.jaystrains.com/

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_3a.3ce6861b.2c68eed2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Scales (Weigh Scales; Shamokin Branch) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:24:15 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C35FF2.BA8B46C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bert Decker wrote: OK - I'll bite - what's a bootleg coal miner? bert To which Bill answers, "Geez, I thought you'd NEVER ask!" When the legitimate anthracite coal mines shut down many years ago in the Lykens Valley area, they merely boarded up the entrances and left. Being legitimate, they had adhered to the state's mining laws where there were requirements of minimum thickness of walls between coal seams. This was to insure that the mines did not cave in and trap the miners. Unfortunately, many of these "partitions" contained unmined coal. So the now-unemployed miners would tear down the boarded up entrances and "bootleg" mine the seams. Every so often one would read in the newspaper that a cave-in had trapped a hapless bootleg miner. I have no idea whether this still exists or if the long arm of the law has descended upon the illegals. They have also been known to ignite the famous underground fires that are now legendary in eastern PA. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Bert Decker [mailto:bertnaki@nac.net] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:24 AM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Scales (Weigh Scales; Shamokin Branch) Hi Bill, OK - I'll bite - what's a bootleg coal miner? bert ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C35FF2.BA8B46C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Bert=20 Decker wrote:
 
OK - I'll bite - = what's a=20 bootleg coal miner?
 
bert
 
To=20 which Bill answers, "Geez, I thought you'd NEVER = ask!"
 
When=20 the legitimate anthracite coal mines shut down many years ago in the = Lykens=20 Valley area, they merely boarded up the entrances and left.  Being=20 legitimate, they had adhered to the state's mining laws where there were = requirements of minimum thickness of walls between coal seams.  = This was to=20 insure that the mines did not cave in and trap the = miners.
 
Unfortunately, many of these "partitions" = contained=20 unmined coal.  So the now-unemployed miners would tear down the = boarded up=20 entrances and "bootleg" mine the seams.  Every so often one would = read in=20 the newspaper that a cave-in had trapped a hapless bootleg=20 miner.
 
I have=20 no idea whether this still exists or if the long arm of the law has = descended=20 upon the illegals.  They have also been known to ignite the famous=20 underground fires that are now legendary in eastern = PA.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: Bert = Decker=20 [mailto:bertnaki@nac.net]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 = 9:24=20 AM
To: Bill Volkmer
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track = Scales (Weigh=20 Scales; Shamokin Branch)

Hi = Bill,
 
OK - I'll bite - = what's a=20 bootleg coal miner?
 
bert
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C35FF2.BA8B46C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:59:54 -0400 Does anyone know where the PRR passenger station was in Buffalo in the '40's/'50's? Did they share one with anyone else or have their own? NYC had that huge Buffalo Central Terminal, but seemed to keep it all to themselves. LV, Erie, DL&W, NKP, WAB and PRR all seemed to have their own, all separate, within a few blocks of each other downtown. NYC's Central Terminal was nearly a mile east. I remember changing trains there in the late '50's, but don't remember details of who had what station and where they were located. Seems strange that for a city with so many passenger railroads, they would all have separate stations in the same part of town instead of a Union Station. What's left of all these stations, if anything? There are some great topo maps and matching aerial photos of the railroads in Buffalo from 1950/1951 on line. Buffalo appears to have been an awesome place back then with respect to railroading. Sorry the map site is NYC - let's just say I was spying on the enemy when I found it! Several PRR yards and facilities, however. http://nyc.railfan.net/buffalo/ Main site for maps and aerial photos http://www.railfan.net/maps/1950usgs/ Alternate site for maps - descriptions appear to be a bit different with respect to detail. http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Main website for Buffalo Central Terminal, which seems to be in some phase of a restoration, but no recent posts to the site http://bfn.org/~bct/hague/central.html Links to many sites with more pictures of Buffalo Central Terminal Sure would love to have been in Buffalo back in those days with a movie camera and lots of film! John Prophet took some movies - probably others around, if we only knew where to look. Thanks for helping me sort out these railroad stations! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:09:08 -0400 The Pennsy shared the Buffalo Central Terminal station facilities with the NYC. Used the tracks nearest the waiting room. I took a shot out of the men's room window I believe of the 574 power laying over there which I THINK was published in one of Bob Y's books. Not sure about that one. Somewhere in my vast collection I have a wallet-sized card somebody made up that read "Admit One" to Men's Room at Buffalo Union Station. (Used Car salesmen please use lower level!) WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:00 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Does anyone know where the PRR passenger station was in Buffalo in the '40's/'50's? Did they share one with anyone else or have their own? NYC had that huge Buffalo Central Terminal, but seemed to keep it all to themselves. LV, Erie, DL&W, NKP, WAB and PRR all seemed to have their own, all separate, within a few blocks of each other downtown. NYC's Central Terminal was nearly a mile east. I remember changing trains there in the late '50's, but don't remember details of who had what station and where they were located. Seems strange that for a city with so many passenger railroads, they would all have separate stations in the same part of town instead of a Union Station. What's left of all these stations, if anything? There are some great topo maps and matching aerial photos of the railroads in Buffalo from 1950/1951 on line. Buffalo appears to have been an awesome place back then with respect to railroading. Sorry the map site is NYC - let's just say I was spying on the enemy when I found it! Several PRR yards and facilities, however. http://nyc.railfan.net/buffalo/ Main site for maps and aerial photos http://www.railfan.net/maps/1950usgs/ Alternate site for maps - descriptions appear to be a bit different with respect to detail. http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Main website for Buffalo Central Terminal, which seems to be in some phase of a restoration, but no recent posts to the site http://bfn.org/~bct/hague/central.html Links to many sites with more pictures of Buffalo Central Terminal Sure would love to have been in Buffalo back in those days with a movie camera and lots of film! John Prophet took some movies - probably others around, if we only knew where to look. Thanks for helping me sort out these railroad stations! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:17:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Semanchuk-Enser Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, William Bigler wrote: >Does anyone know where the PRR passenger station was in Buffalo in the >'40's/'50's? Did they share one with anyone else or have their own? >NYC had that huge Buffalo Central Terminal, but seemed to keep it all to >themselves. LV, Erie, DL&W, NKP, WAB and PRR all seemed to have their >own, all separate, within a few blocks of each other downtown. NYC's >Central Terminal was nearly a mile east. I remember changing trains >there in the late '50's, but don't remember details of who had what >station and where they were located. Seems strange that for a city with >so many passenger railroads, they would all have separate stations in the >same part of town instead of a Union Station. What's left of all these >stations, if anything? PRR used Buffalo Central Terminal. The PRR never had a large station of it's own in Buffalo. The city killed any talk of a Union Terminal thru politics and back room deals. LV had a large depot on Scott Street within walking distance of the DLW terminal. It was sold to NYS in the late 1950's and the General William J. Donavan State office building sits on the site today. The ROW was sold to NYS and is now the Niagara Section of the I-190. When they quit the Scott Street location they built a small depot on Dingens Street which is still standing but the tracks and the trainshed are long gone. DLW, NKP and Wab all used the DLW station at the foot of Main Street. The station itself is gone but the trainshed is used to store light rail cars for the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority's Metro Rail. The Erie had a Depot on Exchange Street and later moved to a small passenger station at Babcock Street in their SK yard (still yard office for CPR) http://ny.existingstations.com/archive/266.jpg is a picture of the LV station on Dingens Street. http://ny.existingstations.com/archive/983.jpg is a picture of the DLW trainshed http://ny.existingstations.com/counties/Erie.html is a link to all the stations of all RR's still standing in Erie County. Enjoy! > >There are some great topo maps and matching aerial photos of the railroads >in Buffalo from 1950/1951 on line. Buffalo appears to have been an awesome >place back then with respect to railroading. Sorry the map site is NYC - >let's just say I was spying on the enemy when I found it! Several PRR yards >and facilities, however. > >http://nyc.railfan.net/buffalo/ Main site for maps and aerial photos >http://www.railfan.net/maps/1950usgs/ Alternate site for maps - >descriptions appear to be a bit different with respect to detail. >http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Main website for Buffalo Central >Terminal, which seems to be in some phase of a restoration, but no recent >posts to the site >http://bfn.org/~bct/hague/central.html Links to many sites with more >pictures of Buffalo Central Terminal > >Sure would love to have been in Buffalo back in those days with a movie >camera and lots of film! John Prophet took some movies - probably others >around, if we only knew where to look. > >Thanks for helping me sort out these railroad stations! > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:30:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C36015.2C9B2290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very interesting. What ever became of the PRR freight station and orifice building on West Seneca St.?, (number 32 I believe) WV -----Original Message----- From: Will Semanchuk-Enser [mailto:alcoman@net.bluemoon.net] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 2:18 PM To: William Bigler Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, William Bigler wrote: >Does anyone know where the PRR passenger station was in Buffalo in the >'40's/'50's? Did they share one with anyone else or have their own? >NYC had that huge Buffalo Central Terminal, but seemed to keep it all to >themselves. LV, Erie, DL&W, NKP, WAB and PRR all seemed to have their >own, all separate, within a few blocks of each other downtown. NYC's >Central Terminal was nearly a mile east. I remember changing trains >there in the late '50's, but don't remember details of who had what >station and where they were located. Seems strange that for a city with >so many passenger railroads, they would all have separate stations in the >same part of town instead of a Union Station. What's left of all these >stations, if anything? PRR used Buffalo Central Terminal. The PRR never had a large station of it's own in Buffalo. The city killed any talk of a Union Terminal thru politics and back room deals. LV had a large depot on Scott Street within walking distance of the DLW terminal. It was sold to NYS in the late 1950's and the General William J. Donavan State office building sits on the site today. The ROW was sold to NYS and is now the Niagara Section of the I-190. When they quit the Scott Street location they built a small depot on Dingens Street which is still standing but the tracks and the trainshed are long gone. DLW, NKP and Wab all used the DLW station at the foot of Main Street. The station itself is gone but the trainshed is used to store light rail cars for the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority's Metro Rail. The Erie had a Depot on Exchange Street and later moved to a small passenger station at Babcock Street in their SK yard (still yard office for CPR) http://ny.existingstations.com/archive/266.jpg is a picture of the LV station on Dingens Street. http://ny.existingstations.com/archive/983.jpg is a picture of the DLW trainshed http://ny.existingstations.com/counties/Erie.html is a link to all the stations of all RR's still standing in Erie County. Enjoy! > >There are some great topo maps and matching aerial photos of the railroads >in Buffalo from 1950/1951 on line. Buffalo appears to have been an awesome >place back then with respect to railroading. Sorry the map site is NYC - >let's just say I was spying on the enemy when I found it! Several PRR yards >and facilities, ACE=ver. > >http://nyc.railfan.net/buffalo/ Main site for maps and aerial photos >http://www.railfan.net/maps/1950usgs/ Alternate site for maps - >descriptions appear to be a bit different with respect to detail. >http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Main website for Buffalo Central >Terminal, which seems to be in some phase of a restoration, but no recent >posts to the site >http://bfn.org/~bct/hague/central.html Links to many sites with more >pictures of Buffalo Central Terminal > >Sure would love to have been in Buffalo back in those days with a movie >camera and lots of film! John Prophet took some movies - probably others >around, if we only knew where to look. > >Thanks for helping me sort out these railroad stations! > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C36015.2C9B2290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Very=20 interesting.  What ever became of the PRR freight station and = orifice=20 building on West Seneca St.?, (number 32 I believe)
 
WV
-----Original Message-----
From: Will = Semanchuk-Enser [mailto:alcoman@net.bluemoon.net]
Sent: = Monday,=20 August 11, 2003 2:18 PM
To: William Bigler
Cc:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in=20 Buffalo

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, William Bigler = wrote:

>Does=20 anyone know where the PRR passenger station was in Buffalo in=20 the
>'40's/'50's?  Did they share one with anyone else or = have=20 their own?
>NYC had that huge Buffalo Central Terminal, but = seemed to=20 keep it all to
>themselves.  LV, Erie, DL&W, NKP, WAB = and PRR=20 all seemed to have their
>own, all separate, within a few blocks = of each=20 other downtown.  NYC's
>Central Terminal was nearly a mile=20 east.  I remember changing trains
>there in the late '50's, = but=20 don't remember details of who had what
>station and where they = were=20 located.  Seems strange that for a city with
>so many = passenger=20 railroads, they would all have separate stations in the
>same = part of=20 town instead of a Union Station.  What's left of all=20 these
>stations, if anything?

PRR used Buffalo Central=20 Terminal.  The PRR never had a large station of
it's own in=20 Buffalo.  The city killed any talk of a Union Terminal = thru
politics=20 and back room deals.  LV had a large depot on Scott Street=20 within
walking distance of the DLW terminal.  It was sold to = NYS in=20 the late
1950's and the General William J. Donavan State office = building=20 sits on
the site today.  The ROW was sold to NYS and is now = the=20 Niagara Section of
the I-190.  When they quit the Scott Street = location they built a small
depot on Dingens Street which is still = standing=20 but the tracks and the
trainshed are long gone.  DLW, NKP and = Wab all=20 used the DLW station at the
foot of Main Street.  The station = itself=20 is gone but the trainshed is used
to store light rail cars for the = Niagara=20 Frontier Transportation
Authority's Metro Rail.  The Erie had = a Depot=20 on Exchange Street and later
moved to a small passenger station at = Babcock=20 Street in their SK yard
(still yard office for CPR)

http://ny.existin= gstations.com/archive/266.jpg=20 is a picture of the LV
station on Dingens Street.

http://ny.existin= gstations.com/archive/983.jpg=20 is a picture of the DLW
trainshed

http://ny.exis= tingstations.com/counties/Erie.html=20 is a link to all the
stations of all RR's still standing in Erie=20 County.

Enjoy!

>
>There are some great topo = maps and=20 matching aerial photos of the railroads
>in Buffalo from = 1950/1951 on=20 line.  Buffalo appears to have been an awesome
>place back = then=20 with respect to railroading.  Sorry the map site is NYC = -
>let's=20 just say I was spying on the enemy when I found it!  Several PRR=20 yards
>and facilities, however.
>
>http://nyc.railfan.net/buffalo/<= /A>  =20 Main site for maps and aerial photos
>http://www.railfan.net/map= s/1950usgs/   =20 Alternate site for maps -
>descriptions appear to be a bit = different=20 with respect to detail.
>http://central.terminal.rai= lfan.net/   =20 Main website for Buffalo Central
>Terminal, which seems to be in = some=20 phase of a restoration, but no recent
>posts to the = site
>http://bfn.org/~bct/hague= /central.html    =20 Links to many sites with more
>pictures of Buffalo Central=20 Terminal
>
>Sure would love to have been in Buffalo back = in those=20 days with a movie
>camera and lots of film!  John Prophet = took some=20 movies - probably others
>around, if we only knew where to=20 look.
>
>Thanks for helping me sort out these railroad=20 stations!
>
>Bill Bigler
>Big Flats = NY
>Modeling PRR=20 Renovo &
>     Williamsport=20 = WWII
>
>
>---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
>For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

= Will=20 Semanchuk-Enser    Blue Moon Internet Corp General=20 Manager
www.bluemoon.net        = Internet=20 Access & Web=20 = Hosting
www.railfan.net        = ;=20 Railfan Network=20 = Services


-----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C36015.2C9B2290-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: RE: [PRR] Younger Crowd Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:02:47 +0100 Likewise Viv, I am also a GWR fan. For anyone interested in the link between PRR & GWR [re engine boilers] please see http://www.gwstudygroup.org.uk/ Of interest is that both companies paint their engines 'Brunswick Green'. Regards James Lucas PRRT&HS member #4546. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Viv brice Sent: 11 August 2003 02:04 To: PRR-Talk (E-mail) Subject: FW: [PRR] Younger Crowd Unfortunately, Dominic, people like me who love both the PRR and the Great Western in UK are too busy being revolted by the sight of a beautiful Great Western locomotive repainted in that awful red to think of the links to the PRR. Liked the films, though. Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' PRRT&HS member #6781 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mazoch Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2003 11:12 am To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Younger Crowd Millions of people have seen 2 movies having a passenger train wih red cars pulled by a steam engine with a belpaire boiler. Only problem is, this train is not quite real. Nor is it American. The train I am refering to is the Hogwarts Express from the Harry potter novels/movies. Has anybody thought of pointing out to those fans the connection between that engine's boiler and the PRR. Or the train colour is like PRR's. Two parts of the magic which is PRR....and you don't need awand to enjoy them! Dominic Mazoch . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:22:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3601C.70C33D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, I doubt if you would be happy with any American Beauty, Blue Line or = Main Line kits today unless you are a collector of vintage kits. Blue Line cars = are all metal; the American Beauty cars have stamped metal sides and = wood roof/floor/detail parts. The detail of these kits pales in = comparison to those currently available. The PRR lettering is wrong on = the American Beauty cars and all three brands suffer from overly thick = lettering. Blue Line cars were first available in the late '40's = followed by American Beauty and Main Line in the mid 1950's. I believe = Blue Line used SP prototype drawings and American Beauty used GN. Main = Line kits are generic in nature but can be upgraded with today's detail parts but you still will have a car below current kit = offerings. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? PRR List, I ran across a dealer specializing in out of production kits. = Three lines of kits offering PRR cars are unfamiliar to me and was = wondering if anyone is familiar with them. They are American Beauty, = Main Line and Blue Line. I have done many wood, plastic and metal kits = plus kitbashing and scratchbuilding so kit building is no problem. I am = curious as to the prototype fidelity and quality of parts in these three = lines. =20 Many other out of production PRR kits are listed at Jay's Trains. = http://www.jaystrains.com/ Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3601C.70C33D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
I doubt if you would be happy with any American = Beauty, Blue=20 Line or Main Line
kits today unless you are a collector of vintage=20 kits. Blue Line cars are all metal; the American Beauty cars have = stamped=20 metal sides and wood roof/floor/detail parts. The detail of these = kits=20 pales in comparison to those currently available.  The PRR = lettering is=20 wrong on the American Beauty cars and all three brands suffer from = overly thick=20 lettering.  Blue Line cars were first available in the late '40's = followed=20 by American Beauty and Main Line in the mid 1950's.  I believe = Blue=20 Line used SP prototype drawings and American Beauty used GN.  Main = Line=20 kits are generic in nature but can be upgraded with
today's detail parts but you still will have a car = below=20 current kit offerings.
Frank Brua
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com <RDG2124@aol.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:12 = AM
Subject:=20 [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits?

 PRR=20 List,

   I ran across a dealer specializing in out of = production kits.  Three lines of kits offering PRR cars are = unfamiliar to=20 me and was wondering if anyone is familiar with them.  They are = American=20 Beauty, Main Line and Blue Line.  I have done many wood, plastic = and=20 metal kits plus kitbashing and scratchbuilding so kit building is no=20 problem.  I am curious as to the prototype fidelity and quality = of parts=20 in these three lines. 

  Many other out of = production PRR=20 kits are listed at Jay's Trains.  =20 http://www.jaystrains.com/

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3601C.70C33D20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bert Decker" Subject: Re: [PRR] Green by any other name (was Younger Crowd) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:47:16 -0400 James and list - Too bad the paint is the same in name only. Swindon used a much lighter version than Altoona. . .it was green enough to where people could actually see it was green - unlike its American counterpart. Didn't I read somewhere that green was initially added to black enamel so that it wouldn't gray (grey) out so much as it aged? Bert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:07:01 -0400 Thanks for all the quick responses and good information on PRR in Buffalo. All my data and maps pointed to the Pennsy using NYC's Central Terminal, but I found it hard to believe that the NYC, who didn't share their terminal with anyone else, would have shared it with arch-rival Pennsy. Like some of the rest of you, I remember changing trains in Buffalo and taking cabs from one station to another, but details certainly eluded me. I sure don't remember that grand and monsterous Central Terminal of NYC. I had to take either NYC or NKP west from Buffalo to Cleveland on trips home from college. Sure wish I'd taken tons of pictures and made some notes back then. I still can't tell just what they plan to do with the NYC Central Terminal once they get it restored. No mention of using it for Amtrak. It may not be in the center of town, but it's sure closer than Depew. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:55:08 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36007.CB39B460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's worth pointing out that Main Line had an N6b kit that was certainly = good for its time, the usual scribed wood sides and metal window frames, = doors, cupola, and end details. I think that a well-assembled Main = Line N6b would be better than the Model Power (or whatever it is) = plastic version and on a par, or possibly better than, a Gloor Craft. = I wouldn't turn one of these down. Main Line also had wood kits for an express reefer. I haven't seen one = for 35 years or so, but it would be worth checking if these are a = dimensional match for the more or less "standard" wood sheathed express = reefer used by many roads and documented in the Railroad Prototype = Cyclopedia books. If it fits anywhere close dimensionally, I wouldn't = turn one of these down either, as the only other choice is the Suncoast = resin kit for these cars, expensive, and not a shake-the-box by any = means. Some kits from the 1940s and 50s were in fact more accurate than we give = them credit for, and are still acceptable layout-quality models. This = is part of the fun of swap meets! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: parkvarieties=20 To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? Evan, =20 I doubt if you would be happy with any American Beauty, Blue Line or = Main Line kits today unless you are a collector of vintage kits. Blue Line cars = are all metal; the American Beauty cars have stamped metal sides and = wood roof/floor/detail parts. The detail of these kits pales in = comparison to those currently available. The PRR lettering is wrong on = the American Beauty cars and all three brands suffer from overly thick = lettering. Blue Line cars were first available in the late '40's = followed by American Beauty and Main Line in the mid 1950's. I believe = Blue Line used SP prototype drawings and American Beauty used GN. Main = Line kits are generic in nature but can be upgraded with today's detail parts but you still will have a car below current kit = offerings. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? PRR List, I ran across a dealer specializing in out of production kits. = Three lines of kits offering PRR cars are unfamiliar to me and was = wondering if anyone is familiar with them. They are American Beauty, = Main Line and Blue Line. I have done many wood, plastic and metal kits = plus kitbashing and scratchbuilding so kit building is no problem. I am = curious as to the prototype fidelity and quality of parts in these three = lines. =20 Many other out of production PRR kits are listed at Jay's Trains. = http://www.jaystrains.com/ Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346=20 ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36007.CB39B460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's worth pointing out that Main Line had an N6b = kit that was=20 certainly good for its time, the usual scribed wood sides and metal = window=20 frames, doors, cupola, and end details.   I think that a=20 well-assembled Main Line N6b would be better than the Model Power (or = whatever=20 it is) plastic version and on a par, or possibly better than, a Gloor=20 Craft.    I wouldn't turn one of these down.
 
Main Line also had wood kits for an express = reefer.  I=20 haven't seen one for 35 years or so, but it would be worth checking if = these are=20 a dimensional match for the more or less "standard" wood sheathed = express reefer=20 used by many roads and documented in the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia=20 books.   If it fits anywhere close dimensionally, I wouldn't = turn one=20 of these down either, as the only other choice is the Suncoast resin kit = for=20 these cars, expensive, and not a shake-the-box by any = means.
 
Some kits from the 1940s and 50s were in fact more = accurate=20 than we give them credit for, and are still acceptable layout-quality=20 models.  This is part of the fun of swap meets!
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 parkvarieties
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 = 12:22=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling = Stock=20 Kits?

Evan,
 
I doubt if you would be happy with any American = Beauty, Blue=20 Line or Main Line
kits today unless you are a collector of vintage=20 kits. Blue Line cars are all metal; the American Beauty cars have = stamped=20 metal sides and wood roof/floor/detail parts. The detail of these = kits=20 pales in comparison to those currently available.  The PRR = lettering is=20 wrong on the American Beauty cars and all three brands suffer from = overly=20 thick lettering.  Blue Line cars were first available in the late = '40's=20 followed by American Beauty and Main Line in the mid = 1950's.  I=20 believe Blue Line used SP prototype drawings and American Beauty used=20 GN.  Main Line kits are generic in nature but can be upgraded=20 with
today's detail parts but you still will have a car = below=20 current kit offerings.
Frank Brua
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: RDG2124@aol.com <RDG2124@aol.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:12 = AM
Subject:=20 [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits?

PRR=20 List,

   I ran across a dealer specializing in out = of=20 production kits.  Three lines of kits offering PRR cars are = unfamiliar=20 to me and was wondering if anyone is familiar with them.  They = are=20 American Beauty, Main Line and Blue Line.  I have done many = wood,=20 plastic and metal kits plus kitbashing and scratchbuilding so kit = building=20 is no problem.  I am curious as to the prototype fidelity and = quality=20 of parts in these three lines. 

  Many other out = of=20 production PRR kits are listed at Jay's Trains.  =20 http://www.jaystrains.com/

Many thanks,

Evan=20 Leisey
RCT&HS  346=20 ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36007.CB39B460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:39:35 -0400 List Gize, I can certainly agree with John on the qaulity of Main Line's N6b kit. My dad has built one with some added detail and they are a good kit. If you put it next to my dads brass N6b i can't tell the difference. The model power N6b is no match for Main Line let alone brass. I had one that i intended on tossing out, but it was used as a load for a fkat car. My luck, and i won third place in the HO Frieght model contest this year at the convention. The fun part was destroying it to lokk as if it had been in a train wreck. I'm working on two Quality Craft X31a boxcars right now and it is great. Granted, i could buy some in plastic by bowser, but dad wants me to learn this way. I also have a Quality Craft Brass N5c to build. The beauty of building with wood is that you don't need to be perfect to get it right. -John ------------------------------------------------------------ John Bruce wrote: It's worth pointing out that Main Line had an N6b kit that was certainly good for its time, the usual scribed wood sides and metal window frames, doors, cupola, and end details. I think that a well-assembled Main Line N6b would be better than the Model Power (or whatever it is) plastic version and on a par, or possibly better than, a Gloor Craft. I wouldn't turn one of these down. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? Main Line Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:53:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C36020.C3BD7820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Y'all I still take those cars out to drool over from time to time. Both the = Main Line N6b and the Express Reefer. Yes, they are clumsy/klutzy = compared to current technology, but by golly, they are handsome cars. = And my N6b has Kadee trucks, couplers and Tomar markers. When rolling = down the track in "dim" light, looks fantastic. And draws lot's of = ooh's and aah's from any modeler. The express car doesn't get quite as = many gasps because it's not as "flashy" LOL, but it does generate = comments. And yes, most younger modelers are impressed with the quality = level compared to some other models of the 50's. So, go ahead and get a = Main Line kit if you like. It makes up nice. Also, although not addressed here, I have other Main Line kits. Stock = cars, box cars, and such. But again, not up to today's standards. But = all have Kadee trucks and couplers and all run well with other = equipment, creating "non-sameness" to their trains. Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C36020.C3BD7820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Y'all
 
I still take those cars out to drool = over from=20 time to time.  Both the Main Line N6b and the Express Reefer.  = Yes,=20 they are clumsy/klutzy compared to current technology, but by golly, = they are=20 handsome cars.  And my N6b has Kadee trucks, couplers and Tomar=20 markers.  When rolling down the track in "dim" light, looks=20 fantastic.  And draws lot's of ooh's and aah's from any = modeler.  The=20 express car doesn't get quite as many gasps because it's not as "flashy" = LOL,=20 but it does generate comments.  And yes, most younger modelers are=20 impressed with the quality level compared to some other models of the=20 50's.  So, go ahead and get a Main Line kit if you like.  It = makes up=20 nice.
 
Also, although not addressed here, I have = other Main=20 Line kits.  Stock cars, box cars, and such.  But again, not up = to=20 today's standards.  But all have Kadee trucks and couplers and all = run well=20 with other equipment, creating "non-sameness" to their = trains.
 
Happy Rails!
 
Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS = #1204 &=20 Proud SPF
------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C36020.C3BD7820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:52:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo While we're on the subject of PRR Buffalo operations, could anyone tell me whether the Buffalo-Pittsburgh arranged freights (such as PB-1,-2,-3,-4, SO-1, and SO-2)used the Salamanca Branch or the Chautauqua Branch ? How about BEC-1 (The Excelsior) and BEC-2 (The Salesman) ? Thanks, Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell I too have heard that E44s were built with bells off ex PRR steam engines. I wonder if E44 4465 still has it's bell attached? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] RS3 number boards Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:52:20 -0400 Hi All, Does anyone have good close up photos or drawings of the big RS3 number boards that were mounted at 45 degrees to the body? I have been stuck in studying the RS3 lately. I might have to try to make a pattern for those number boards if I can get some good information. I did not used to like them, but they are growing on me. Perhaps there is a brass O Scale part I could get. Anything? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:02:53 -0400 BEC-1 went from Buffalo to Crestline (Chicago) via Corry on the Chautauqua Branch, thence Main Line-Erie to Erie and NYC Erie to Girard Jct., thence E&P Branch to New Castle, thence PY&A E&A Branch to Niles, thence Main Line-Lake to Alliance, thence PFW&C Main Line-Pittsburgh-Chicago to Crestline. BEC-2 was the eastward flip side, reverse routing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo From: Don Murphy Date: 11 Aug 2003 22:13:09 -0700 The BECs ran along the NKP on the Chautauqua Branch to Corry, then on the Erie Main of the Renovo Division to Erie, through Lake Yard and then to the E&A Division through DJ Yard in West Erie. Thence to North Girard along trackage rights on the NYC to North Girard then south to New Castle. I am not sure about the PB trains but I think they ran the Chautauqua Branch too. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division Circa 1946 On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 17:52, Pattirobpatti@cs.com wrote: > While we're on the subject of PRR Buffalo operations, could anyone tell me > whether the Buffalo-Pittsburgh arranged freights (such as PB-1,-2,-3,-4, SO-1, > and SO-2)used the Salamanca Branch or the Chautauqua Branch ? How about BEC-1 > (The Excelsior) and BEC-2 (The Salesman) ? > > Thanks, Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Dave, When did the Foundry close at Altoona? The E44's were built in 1960. I am not certain but wasn't the foundry closed at that time? If so, all E44 Bells were probably donated from dead Steamers. On a side note, I once was told of a P5 with a different sounding Bell. Supposedly, it was a Steel J1 Bell. But no proof....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bbreynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:29:33 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell In a message dated 8/11/2003 10:22:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > When did the Foundry close at Altoona? The E44's were built in 1960. > I am not certain but wasn't the foundry closed at that time? If so, all > E44 Bells were probably donated from dead Steamers. > Why would GE not have supplied bells? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:29:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell --part1_12.347cfd63.2c69ab0d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/11/2003 10:22:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > When did the Foundry close at Altoona? The E44's were built in 1960. > I am not certain but wasn't the foundry closed at that time? If so, all > E44 Bells were probably donated from dead Steamers. > Why would GE not have supplied bells? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_12.347cfd63.2c69ab0d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/11/2= 003 10:22:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes:


When did the Foundry close=20= at Altoona? The E44's were built in 1960.
I am not certain but wasn't the foundry closed at that time? If so, &nbs= p;all
E44 Bells were probably donated from dead Steamers.  


Why would GE not have supplied bells?

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_12.347cfd63.2c69ab0d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:40:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo From: Paul W Metzger This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_51a3.5622.15dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to the 1960 Freight Schedules, as listed on Mark Bej's website http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/prr.html (wasn't able to access tonight, so I'm not sure if that is still a good URL), here's what was running where for the Buffalo-Pgh trains: -CBF-1 & CBF-2 went via Olean & the Salamanca Branch -CBF-3 & CBF-4 went via Corry & the Chautauqua Branch -PB-1 & PB-2 only went as far as Oil City -SO-1 is not specified as to which branch it took between Oil City & Buffalo -SO-2 was listed as originating at Oil City, going back to Shire Oaks -SA-3 & SA-4 went between Oil City & Olean on the Salamanca -OCB-1 & OCB-2 are listed in the connections of a some of the above trains. I assume this was a Oil City-Blasdell local. Paul Metzger On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:52:05 EDT Pattirobpatti@cs.com writes: > While we're on the subject of PRR Buffalo operations, could anyone > tell me > whether the Buffalo-Pittsburgh arranged freights (such as > PB-1,-2,-3,-4, SO-1, > and SO-2)used the Salamanca Branch or the Chautauqua Branch ? How > about BEC-1 > (The Excelsior) and BEC-2 (The Salesman) ? > > Thanks, Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----__JNP_000_51a3.5622.15dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
According to the 1960 Freight Schedules, as listed on Mark Bej's = website http://ccfadm.= eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/prr.html (wasn't=20 able to access tonight, so I'm not sure if that is still a good URL), here'= s=20 what was running where for the Buffalo-Pgh trains:
 
-CBF-1 & CBF-2 went via Olean & the Salamanca Branch
-CBF-3 & CBF-4 went via Corry & the Chautauqua Branch
-PB-1 & PB-2 only went as far as Oil City
-SO-1 is not specified as to which branch it took between Oil City &= amp;=20 Buffalo
-SO-2 was listed as originating at Oil City, going back to Shire Oaks<= /DIV>
-SA-3 & SA-4 went between Oil City & Olean on the Salamanca
-OCB-1 & OCB-2 are listed in the connections of a some of the = above=20 trains. I assume this was a Oil=20 City-Blasdell local.
 
Paul Metzger
 
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:52:05 EDT Pattirobpatti@cs.com writes:
&= gt;=20 While we're on the subject of PRR Buffalo operations, could anyone
>= tell=20 me
> whether the Buffalo-Pittsburgh arranged freights (such as
&= gt;=20 PB-1,-2,-3,-4, SO-1,
> and SO-2)used the Salamanca Branch or the=20 Chautauqua Branch ? How
> about BEC-1
> (The Excelsior) and = BEC-2=20 (The Salesman) ?
>
> Thanks,  Rob
>
>=20 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
= >=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> =
 
----__JNP_000_51a3.5622.15dc-- ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Gary, I think the Foundry in Altoona did close about the time the E44s were being built. Over on the PRR Catenary list, it was stated that each bell had a number of of the K4 it came off of. So I was wondering if the E44 (PRR 4465) up at Strasburg still has it's bell. I've heard stories about steam bells on new equipment, but like you said, "no proof" But who knows? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:58:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo --- Paul W Metzger wrote: > According to the 1960 Freight Schedules, as listed on Mark Bej's > website > http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/prr.html (wasn't able to > access > tonight, so I'm not sure if that is still a good URL)... It isn't. Try: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/prr.html instead. Or: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/ and follow the links on the pages if the one I gave first doesn't work. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:04:30 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? --- John Bruce wrote: > I think that a > well-assembled Main Line N6b would be...on a par, or possibly > better than, a Gloor Craft. I had been under the impression that Gloor Craft was Main Line, under new ownership. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:52:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS3 number boards Hi All, Does anyone have good close up photos or drawings of the big RS3 number boards that were mounted at 45 degrees to the body? I have been stuck in studying the RS3 lately. I might have to try to make a pattern for those number boards if I can get some good information. I did not used to like them, but they are growing on me. Perhaps there is a brass O Scale part I could get. Anything? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:08:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo From: Paul W Metzger Thanks, Bob for the correction. I looked at my bookmarks again and found the correct link: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ , which goes directly to the freight schedules. On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:58:15 -0700 (PDT) robert netzlof writes: > --- Paul W Metzger wrote: > > According to the 1960 Freight Schedules, as listed on Mark Bej's > > website > > http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/prr.html (wasn't able to > > access > > tonight, so I'm not sure if that is still a good URL)... > > It isn't. > > Try: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/prr.html instead. > > Or: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/ and follow the links on the pages > if the one I gave first doesn't work. > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: joe@dille.montgomery.pa.us (Joe Dille) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:19:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Mailing list for general rairoad memoribilia? Hi, I am looking for a mailing list for general railroad memorabilia. Does anyone have any suggestions. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Joe Dille Telford, PA USA joe@dille.montgomery.pa.us http://home.jtan.com/~joe/joe.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Bruce, Good question. If the PRR used the same practice followed in the Steam Days as with Builders Baldwin, Alco, etc,, the PRR would have supplied the Bells to GE as well. The PRR had a standard 16" Bell that they wanted used on their equipment. They made these at the Altoona Foundries. Diesel Locos do not fall in this practice however. Those 12 inch Bells were mass produced by someone else. Many/All??? Electric Locos had the 16" Bell and pretty much all were built in the early to mid part of the century while the foundries still operated. Either they were supplied with new PRR Bells or barrowed Bells from older PRR Steam Power going to scrap. The E44 is beyond my knowledge. If this had a 16" Bell, good chance it is a barrowed PRR Steam Loco Bell. If it is a 12" Bell like the Diesels, Good Chance it was supplied by GE. One quick look at an E44 photo last night couldn't spot a Bell. Where was it hung? Behind the Pilot? Anyone with a tape measure and near Strasburg and a free day? Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire----/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:03:47 -0500 Gloor Craft was originally Quality Craft, out of Northumberland, Pa. A lot of Quality Craft's kits very closely resembled those of the Ambroid line. -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:05 PM To: John Bruce; parkvarieties; RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Rolling Stock Kits? --- John Bruce wrote: > I think that a > well-assembled Main Line N6b would be...on a par, or possibly > better than, a Gloor Craft. I had been under the impression that Gloor Craft was Main Line, under new ownership. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:05:21 +0000 I ordered the Keystone reprints when they came out and one of the issues stated that the E44 bells did in fact come from PRR inventory. Without looking it up I could convince myself it even listed which bells went to which E44's. Someone near Strasburg could do us all a favor and see if there is a number or numbers on the bell on the E44 there to confirm. IT would almost have to be frame mounted somewhere. On an entirely differnt tack there was a big stink with the T1 bell location when it came out. I guess all bells had been near the front of the engine and the T1 was mounted behind shrouding near the cab as I recall. The PRR public relations department put out a blurb to molify the public concern and the FRA concern only to have the Baldwin photographer provide an unshrouded picture to Trains for publication showing the exact location. He almost lost his job but pleaded ignorance. He told about the incident in his memoirs published in Trains many years ago. > Dave, > > When did the Foundry close at Altoona? The E44's were built in 1960. > I am not certain but wasn't the foundry closed at that time? If so, all > E44 Bells were probably donated from dead Steamers. > > On a side note, I once was told of a P5 with a different sounding > Bell. Supposedly, it was a Steel J1 Bell. But no proof....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Bruce, Good question. If the PRR used the same practice followed in the Steam Days as with Builders Baldwin, Alco, etc,, the PRR would have supplied the Bells to GE as well. The PRR had a standard 16" Bell that they wanted used on their equipment. They made these at the Altoona Foundries. Diesel Locos do not fall in this practice however. Those 12 inch Bells were mass produced by someone else. Many/All??? Electric Locos had the 16" Bell and pretty much all were built in the early to mid part of the century while the foundries still operated. Either they were supplied with new PRR Bells or barrowed Bells from older PRR Steam Power going to scrap. The E44 is beyond my knowledge. If this had a 16" Bell, good chance it is a barrowed PRR Steam Loco Bell. If it is a 12" Bell like the Diesels, Good Chance it was supplied by GE. One quick look at an E44 photo last night couldn't spot a Bell. Where was it hung? Behind the Pilot? Anyone with a tape measure and near Strasburg and a free day? Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] The Chicago chapter invites you to join us Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:07:35 +0000 The Chicago terminal Chapter of the PRR would like to invite anyone who will be in the area to join us at any time. Our next two events are listed below. By overwheling response the dates for the next two events are as follows: 1. The field trip will be on Saturday September 20. We will meet at the Hammond Amtrak station at the north end of Calumet Ave. If you have ever been to Phil Schmidts restaurant the Hammond Amtrak ststion is on the north side of the tracks across from Phil Schmidt's. If you need directions let me know. Jim Burd and Jack Tomizek will be leading this. Jim has lived in the area and photographed it for over 20 years and will take us to many of the branches in the area and then work our way east toward Valpo as time permits. Jack is a former PRR signal maintainer who will add his knowledge of the PRR. IT should be a great field trip. We will probably meet about 8:30AM so we have a full day. I will have a firm time in a couple of weeks. 2. The next regular meeting in the Pullman Center will be Saturday October 18 at 2:00 PM. Jack Tomizek will be telling us about his career working for the PRR. Jack started as a towerman and switched to signal maintaining. As he told us at our last meeting when he married his wife didn't like him working nights so he transferred to the signal department where he got to work day and night! He is already working on his presentation. If you have any questions please e mail me. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:41:17 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: RS3 number boards Bill, Off the top of my head, Bowser has a good line of RS3 parts, at least in O scale, including trainphone antenna parts. They may have something you can use. Steve Bartlett Bill Lane wrote: Hi All, Does anyone have good close up photos or drawings of the big RS3 number boards that were mounted at 45 degrees to the body? I have been stuck in studying the RS3 lately. I might have to try to make a pattern for those number boards if I can get some good information. I did not used to like them, but they are growing on me. Perhaps there is a brass O Scale part I could get. Anything? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:49:19 GMT Subject: [PRR] The Red Engine From: Dominic Mazoch Be glad your Great Western engine is running, even in red! People here got upset when they repainted SP 4449 in BNSF black. But at least your engine, as the HWX, or 4449 as BNSF are running UNDER STEAM. More than what PRR 1361 can do! (Granted, she is in the shops, and this is PRR content!) Better that what happen to N&W 611! Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Hi Gary, Where would the numbers be on the bell? Are they on top or inside the bell? I was supposed to go out there this weekend with some kids but now I have a real reason to go!!! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Turnouts in Yards question Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:17:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_065D_01C36106.63BAF240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR-Listers: I am in the process in planning out my main yard on my HO scale layout. = It will be a flat switched yard with long leads on both ends so that = trimmers and shifters can work on either end. It will have classic = ladder tracks on both ends of the yard.=20 While I have used #6 turnouts throughout my layout, they pose a = potential problem in my yard. There angle can limit the number of tracks = you have have in a yard (given the length of yard available). While = Altas "Snap Track" is out of the question, I am asking if any of you = have used #4 turnouts in your yards without difficulty.=20 Most of my rolling stock will be 40' and 50' cars with the occasional = 86's boxcar. The engines working in that yard will primarily be 4-axle = switchers however I may want to use steam as well (consolidations, = C-1's, B-6's, even a Hippo). Naturally, the speeds within the yard will = be low. What have been your experiences with #4 and #6 turnouts in yards? If you = can provide my any comments or advise, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance! Ted Andrews ------=_NextPart_000_065D_01C36106.63BAF240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR-Listers:
 
I am in the process in planning out my main yard on my HO scale = layout. It=20 will be a flat switched yard with long leads on both ends so that = trimmers and=20 shifters can work on either end. It will have classic ladder tracks on = both ends=20 of the yard.
 
While I have used #6 turnouts throughout my layout, they pose a = potential=20 problem in my yard. There angle can limit the number of tracks you have = have in=20 a yard (given the length of yard available). While Altas "Snap Track" is = out of=20 the question, I am asking if any of you have used #4 turnouts in your = yards=20 without difficulty.
 
Most of my rolling stock will be 40' and 50' cars with the = occasional 86's=20 boxcar. The engines working in that yard will primarily be 4-axle = switchers=20 however I may want to use steam as well (consolidations, C-1's, B-6's, = even a=20 Hippo). Naturally, the speeds within the yard will be low.
 
What have been your experiences with #4 and #6 turnouts in yards? = If you=20 can provide my any comments or advise, I would greatly appreciate = it.
 
Thanks in advance!
 
Ted Andrews
 
------=_NextPart_000_065D_01C36106.63BAF240-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Dave, The numbers are located on the outside, top flat surface of the bell. Sometimes I see them working their way to the edge and the result of the stamping isn't very good. It will be pretty hard to spot them if you look on the E44 Bell. I was there several years ago. They have a Bell display in the main exhibit hall. Check those bells out first to see if you can locate those numbers. I never did check to see what they were from....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:31:10 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnouts in Yards question - HO Ted: You had me convinced until: > I may want to use steam as well (consolidations, C-1's, B-6's, even a > Hippo). Naturally, the speeds within the yard will be low. I have #6 turnouts in my main yards, but I have 2 smaller "auxillary" yards using #4 turnouts. What I have found is that my brass, including H10s's and I1's will NOT enter the yard with #4's. It has nothing to do with speed. Rather, the side rods start to bind going thru the switch or the loco causes a short (pony wheel hitting cylinder, tender hitting cab, etc). If you are using brass (2-8-0's, 2-10-0's), you will need #6 switches for reliable running. I just banned these locos from the yards with #4's. The #4's work fine with 4 and 6 axle diesels as well as "plastic" steam (P2K Heritage 0-8-0). One alternative may be to use #6's and make the ladders less traditional. Feed the center tracks with the lead and come out from there. You get more tracks in a shorter space that way. Another option (one I used) is the use multiple leads to the ladder tracks. Basically, break it into several smaller ladders. Provide crossovers to get from one part of the yard (ladder) to another easily. It may not be as prototypical, but you can use bigger switches and get more tracks in a small area. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:52:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P85 Road Numbers From: Jerry Britton If anyone cares, the road numbers for the forthcoming N scale P85b coaches from Centralia Car Shops/InterMountain are as follows: -01 4104 -02 4126 -03 4160 -04 4169 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] P85 Road Numbers Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:08:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3617A.79CDF130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I gotta say that the real P-85brs were FAR AND AWAY the most comfortable coaches to ride on that any railroad ever operated. For some reason I could sleep better sitting up in one of them than I could lying down in a Pullman Car. I have even seen dead-head crews sleep past the crew change point in Altoona and have to get off at Johnstown to get home! Too bad none were ever saved. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:53 AM To: PRR-n_scale; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] P85 Road Numbers If anyone cares, the road numbers for the forthcoming N scale P85b coaches from Centralia Car Shops/InterMountain are as follows: -01 4104 -02 4126 -03 4160 -04 4169 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3617A.79CDF130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I=20 gotta say that the real P-85brs were FAR AND AWAY the most comfortable = coaches=20 to ride on that any railroad ever operated.  For some reason I = could sleep=20 better sitting up in one of them than I could lying down in a Pullman = Car. =20istahave even seen dead-head crews sleep past the crew change point in = Altoona and=20 have to get off at Johnstown to get home!
 
Too=20 bad none were ever saved.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: = Jerry Britton=20 [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, = 2003 8:53=20 AM
To: PRR-n_scale; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: [PRR] = P85 Road=20 Numbers

If anyone cares, the road numbers for the = forthcoming N scale=20 P85b
coaches from Centralia Car Shops/InterMountain are as=20 follows:

       =20 -01     = 4104
       =20 -02     = 4126
       =20 -03     = 4160
       =20 -04    =20 = 4169
-----------------------------------------------------------
Je= rry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS  =20 jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing=20 list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.comDate"Merchandis= e=20 Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com<= /A>


----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3617A.79CDF130-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:16:59 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnouts in Yards question Ted asks a layout design question... > PRR-Listers: What have been your experiences with #4 and #6 turnouts in yards? If you can provide my any comments or advise, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance! Ted Andrews One technique that has been advocated in a number of places including MR is to use PECO #5 turnouts for your yard ladder. PECO has a constant radius through the diverging route, and IIRC the radius is somewhere around 36". Because of the smaller frog number and the curved diverging route you can fit a LOT more ladder in a shorter space without the sacrifices required with #4s. The knock on PECO has been that American turnouts don't look like that, however, I have seen several yard shots, including one on the NKP that CLEARLY had curved diverging routes. My bet is that the prototypes did just what we modelers do...when they didn't have enough space, they squashed more in by using the curved diverging route! Obviously, you might want to buy a couple, and set up a rudimentary "test ladder" to see how your locos handle the S-curve going from the main to a siding. My plan is to use PECO #5s for all of my staging yards (visible and hidden) and I may use them for Columbia as well (since I want I1s to be able to move through the yard). Of course, I'm looking at mainline turnouts of #8 if I can and using CV turnout kits where possible. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnouts in Yards question -Thank you Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:31:17 +0000 Thank you to all who responded. I will be sticking to #6 turnouts in the yard. I will be redesigning the yard accordingly. I was not certain if #4's would work. It is better to play it safe especially if I am going to run steam. Ted Andrews (I FINALLY got the Kankakee River bridge in last night...Woo Hoo!!!) >From: "Ted Andrews" >To: "PRR Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Turnouts in Yards question >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:17:36 -0500 > >PRR-Listers: > >I am in the process in planning out my main yard on my HO scale layout. It >will be a flat switched yard with long leads on both ends so that trimmers >and shifters can work on either end. It will have classic ladder tracks on >both ends of the yard. > >While I have used #6 turnouts throughout my layout, they pose a potential >problem in my yard. There angle can limit the number of tracks you have >have in a yard (given the length of yard available). While Altas "Snap >Track" is out of the question, I am asking if any of you have used #4 >turnouts in your yards without difficulty. > >Most of my rolling stock will be 40' and 50' cars with the occasional 86's >boxcar. The engines working in that yard will primarily be 4-axle switchers >however I may want to use steam as well (consolidations, C-1's, B-6's, even >a Hippo). Naturally, the speeds within the yard will be low. > >What have been your experiences with #4 and #6 turnouts in yards? If you >can provide my any comments or advise, I would greatly appreciate it. > >Thanks in advance! > >Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:18:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TLC Publishing From: Jerry Britton It's possible that the book "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Train Consists and Cars - 1952 - Vol. 1" by Harry Stegmaier from TLC Railroad Books may finally be coming. One online reseller is now showing a bunch of TLC books, not including the above, that had been delayed for an extended period. The online Clinchfield group (I'm a closet Clinchfield fan, did you know that?) has been waiting on a "Clinchfield Railroad in the Coalfields" book by Bob Helms. Bob just reported that his book is now due in September, having been pushed back so they can "get some PRR book out the door". Maybe, just maybe... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:40:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 Road Numbers From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 09:08 AM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > I gotta say that the real P-85brs were FAR AND AWAY the most =20 > comfortable coaches to ride on that any railroad ever operated.=A0 For = =20 > some reason I could sleep better sitting up in one of them than I =20 > could lying down in a Pullman Car.=A0 I have even seen dead-head crews = =20 > sleep past the crew change point in Altoona and have to get off at =20 > Johnstown to get home! > =A0 > Too bad none were ever saved. Bill: Since you are an "authority" with "first hand knowledge", are you =20= aware of P85's having their rows and windows offset by 18" or so from =20= one side of the car to the other? All of the floor plans and builders photos I can find show both sides =20= symmetrical. The N scale car has staggered windows (see =20 http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/html/ccs6530.htm ). I =20= cannot find any material to support this window arrangement, but DPH =20 insists it is correct. I've requested access to their source material, =20= but they do not respond to the request. DPH has since posted photos of =20= the HO model (due a month after the N scale model), but they are =20 carefully cropped so as to hide such an error, if it exists, on the HO =20= version. I sincerely hope that it is I that am wrong. (Really!) I've posted quite a bit of material to support my view in the Atlas N =20= Scale Forum. The direct URL to that thread is =20 http://forum.atlasrr.com/=20 topic.asp?whichpage=3D1&ARCHIVEVIEW=3D&TOPIC_ID=3D26713 . Either a) I am wrong; b) both the HO and N cars are wrong; or c) a =20 CAD/CAM error occurred when they downsized the car from HO to N scale. =20= Which is it? Opinions welcome! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:40:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 Road Numbers From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 09:08 AM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > I gotta say that the real P-85brs were FAR AND AWAY the most =20 > comfortable coaches to ride on that any railroad ever operated.=A0 For = =20 > some reason I could sleep better sitting up in one of them than I =20 > could lying down in a Pullman Car.=A0 I have even seen dead-head crews = =20 > sleep past the crew change point in Altoona and have to get off at =20 > Johnstown to get home! > =A0 > Too bad none were ever saved. Bill: Since you are an "authority" with "first hand knowledge", are you =20= aware of P85's having their rows and windows offset by 18" or so from =20= one side of the car to the other? All of the floor plans and builders photos I can find show both sides =20= symmetrical. The N scale car has staggered windows (see =20 http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/html/ccs6530.htm ). I =20= cannot find any material to support this window arrangement, but DPH =20 insists it is correct. I've requested access to their source material, =20= but they do not respond to the request. DPH has since posted photos of =20= the HO model (due a month after the N scale model), but they are =20 carefully cropped so as to hide such an error, if it exists, on the HO =20= version. I sincerely hope that it is I that am wrong. (Really!) I've posted quite a bit of material to support my view in the Atlas N =20= Scale Forum. The direct URL to that thread is =20 http://forum.atlasrr.com/=20 topic.asp?whichpage=3D1&ARCHIVEVIEW=3D&TOPIC_ID=3D26713 . Either a) I am wrong; b) both the HO and N cars are wrong; or c) a =20 CAD/CAM error occurred when they downsized the car from HO to N scale. =20= Which is it? Opinions welcome! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:48:36 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR Automobile cars Speaking of auto cars and the 1940 Car builder Cyc... There is a photo of a 50' PRR auto car (X32), #60112, clearly showing the underfloor tubes for auto racks, but this car does not have a white door stripe (the same photo is in Pennsy Power 3). I looked the specific car up in the 1943 ORER and it was not in the group listed as having racks. So here it would appear that we have a case of an auto car without loaders but with tubes! Was the X32 built with tubes in case it got racks? The photo looks like a builders photo, so I would have to guess that the car did not get racks when built. Earlier in the '40 CBC there is a photo of a 40' PRR auto car (X31B), with no tubes and no stripe (and no loaders according to the ORER), which emphasizes to me that not all auto cars got auto loading racks or underfloor tubes. on Rob Schoenberg's page http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=BuildersPhotos/X31f_8153 8_B34_BillLane.jpg&fr=clX31 there is a photo of a PRR X31F 81538, with tubes and no door stripe and listed in the 1943 ORER as having retractable auto loading racks. Did PRR ever use the door stripe to indicate loader equipped cars? I just picked up a length of 1/16" dia round brass "wire" to start modeling the underfloor tubes when i know they belong there! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:13:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/13/03 --part1_aa.20f41e3b.2c6be7cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/03 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Turnouts in Yards question > From: "Ted Andrews" The York Yard on the Central Pennsylvania Railroad has had #4 turnouts (we call them switches) on all ladder tracks since 1995. The previous edition of the CPRR had #4's in the Yard for the 18 years of it's life. The CPRR is used hard with formal operating sessions at least once each month. We do not have problems with #4 switches! However, we don't run 6 axle diesels through there either. As a matter of fact, the only 6 axle units I have are E8's and they don't get near the freight yard. On the few occasions we run Mikado, Pacific or Consolidation into the yard to couple up to a train and haven't had problems. We don't make a habit of it though. Most of my 300 plus freight cars are 40' or shorter with only 4 or 5 50' and one 72'? flat. The longer cars have never given us a problem. That said, I must also tell you that I don't use the "modern day" #4 turnouts (switches). I use 50's & 60's era Atlas all brass switches. Yea, yea, yea, I know, I'm a dinosaur with 99% brass track, etc. Hey, it works so don't criticize. I have a couple friends who also use #4's on their ladder tracks without a problem. So, go for it! BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_aa.20f41e3b.2c6be7cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/13/03 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Turnouts in Yards=20= question
From: "Ted Andrews" <Ted_Andrews@msn.com>


The York Yard on the Central Pennsylvania Railroad has had #4 turnouts (= we call them switches) on all ladder tracks since 1995.  The previous e= dition of the CPRR had #4's in the Yard for the 18 years of it's life.  = ;The CPRR is used hard with formal operating sessions at least once each mon= th.  We do not have problems with #4 switches!  However, we don't=20= run 6 axle diesels through there either.  As a matter of fact, the only= 6 axle units I have are E8's and they don't get near the freight yard. &nbs= p;On the few occasions we run Mikado, Pacific or Consolidation into the yard= to couple up to a train and haven't had problems.  We don't make a hab= it of it though.  Most of my 300 plus freight cars are 40' or shorter w= ith only 4 or 5 50' and one 72'? flat.  The longer cars have never give= n us a problem.  

That said, I must also tell you that I don't use the "modern day" #4 tur= nouts (switches).  I use 50's & 60's era Atlas all brass switches.=20=  Yea, yea, yea, I know, I'm a dinosaur with 99% brass track, etc.  = ;Hey, it works so don't criticize.

I have a couple friends who also use #4's on their ladder tracks without= a problem.  

So, go for it!

=20
BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_aa.20f41e3b.2c6be7cb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:17:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/13/03 --part1_188.1d991733.2c6be8d5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/03 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Turnouts in Yards question > From: "Ted Andrews" The York Yard on the Central Pennsylvania Railroad has had #4 turnouts (we call them switches) on all ladder tracks since 1995. The previous edition of the CPRR had #4's in the Yard for the 18 years of it's life. The CPRR is used hard with formal operating sessions at least once each month. We do not have problems with #4 switches! However, we don't run 6 axle diesels through there either. As a matter of fact, the only 6 axle units I have are E8's and they don't get near the freight yard. On the few occasions we run Mikado, Pacific or Consolidation into the yard to couple up to a train and haven't had problems. We don't make a habit of it though. Most of my 300 plus freight cars are 40' or shorter with only 4 or 5 50' and one 72'? flat. The longer cars have never given us a problem. That said, I must also tell you that I don't use the "modern day" #4 turnouts (switches). I use 50's & 60's era Atlas all brass switches. Yea, yea, yea, I know, I'm a dinosaur with 99% brass track, etc. Hey, it works so don't criticize. I have a couple friends who also use #4's on their ladder tracks without a problem. So, go for it! BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_188.1d991733.2c6be8d5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/13/03 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Turnouts in Yards=20= question
From: "Ted Andrews" <Ted_Andrews@msn.com>


The York Yard on the Central Pennsylvania Railroad has had #4 turnouts (= we call them switches) on all ladder tracks since 1995.  The previous e= dition of the CPRR had #4's in the Yard for the 18 years of it's life.  = ;The CPRR is used hard with formal operating sessions at least once each mon= th.  We do not have problems with #4 switches!  However, we don't=20= run 6 axle diesels through there either.  As a matter of fact, the only= 6 axle units I have are E8's and they don't get near the freight yard. &nbs= p;On the few occasions we run Mikado, Pacific or Consolidation into the yard= to couple up to a train and haven't had problems.  We don't make a hab= it of it though.  Most of my 300 plus freight cars are 40' or shorter w= ith only 4 or 5 50' and one 72'? flat.  The longer cars have never give= n us a problem.  

That said, I must also tell you that I don't use the "modern day" #4 tur= nouts (switches).  I use 50's & 60's era Atlas all brass switches.=20=  Yea, yea, yea, I know, I'm a dinosaur with 99% brass track, etc.  = ;Hey, it works so don't criticize.

I have a couple friends who also use #4's on their ladder tracks without= a problem.  

So, go for it!

=20
BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_188.1d991733.2c6be8d5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:25:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/13/03 --part1_102.33a589ee.2c6beab8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/03 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Turnouts in Yards question > From: "Ted Andrews" The York Yard on the Central Pennsylvania Railroad has had #4 turnouts (we call them switches) on all ladder tracks since 1995. The previous edition of the CPRR had #4's in the Yard for the 18 years of it's life. The CPRR is used hard with formal operating sessions at least once each month. We do not have problems with #4 switches! However, we don't run 6 axle diesels through there either. As a matter of fact, the only 6 axle units I have are E8's and they don't get near the freight yard. On the few occasions we run Mikado, Pacific or Consolidation into the yard to couple up to a train and haven't had problems. We don't make a habit of it though. Most of my 300 plus freight cars are 40' or shorter with only 4 or 5 50' and one 72'? flat. The longer cars have never given us a problem. That said, I must also tell you that I don't use the "modern day" #4 turnouts (switches). I use 50's & 60's era Atlas all brass switches. Yea, yea, yea, I know, I'm a dinosaur with 99% brass track, etc. Hey, it works so don't criticize. I have a couple friends who also use #4's on their ladder tracks without a problem. So, go for it! BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_102.33a589ee.2c6beab8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/13/03 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Turnouts in Yards=20= question
From: "Ted Andrews" <Ted_Andrews@msn.com>


The York Yard on the Central Pennsylvania Railroad has had #4 turnouts (= we call them switches) on all ladder tracks since 1995.  The previous e= dition of the CPRR had #4's in the Yard for the 18 years of it's life.  = ;The CPRR is used hard with formal operating sessions at least once each mon= th.  We do not have problems with #4 switches!  However, we don't=20= run 6 axle diesels through there either.  As a matter of fact, the only= 6 axle units I have are E8's and they don't get near the freight yard. &nbs= p;On the few occasions we run Mikado, Pacific or Consolidation into the yard= to couple up to a train and haven't had problems.  We don't make a hab= it of it though.  Most of my 300 plus freight cars are 40' or shorter w= ith only 4 or 5 50' and one 72'? flat.  The longer cars have never give= n us a problem.  

That said, I must also tell you that I don't use the "modern day" #4 tur= nouts (switches).  I use 50's & 60's era Atlas all brass switches.=20=  Yea, yea, yea, I know, I'm a dinosaur with 99% brass track, etc.  = ;Hey, it works so don't criticize.

I have a couple friends who also use #4's on their ladder tracks without= a problem.  

So, go for it!

=20
BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_102.33a589ee.2c6beab8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/13/03 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:52:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C361B2.F4D5EF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Switch + Frog = Turnout Al ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C361B2.F4D5EF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Switch + Frog = =3D=20 Turnout
 
Al 
 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C361B2.F4D5EF80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] August 17th, New Castle PA. PRR, P&LE, B&O List, I would like to make a public announcement on behalf of the Beaver Valley Jct Chapter of the NHRS. On Sunday Aug 17 from 11:00am to 4:00pm the Community of Mahoningtown Pa. (outskirts of New Castle Pa.) is holding their annual Town Community Day. The BVJC has participated in this event the past 3-4 years. This year is no different. An invitation is being sent to all local railfans of this area to come on out and enjoy the sites. The Mahoningtown area was/is a large Railroad area. The PRR had their Yards in Mahoningtown, The P&LE, B&O was located in West Pittsburg, CSX still operates there and the NS is in the area as well. As usual the BVJC is adding the railroad "flavor" to this Festival. On display and open for tour will be the on going renovation of "UN" Tower. The Tower, which many of you locals know, was moved 2 miles from its original spot in West Pittsburg to Cherry St in Mahoningtown. Still aways to go on the work but it is coming along. As in the past the BVJC with cooperation with local Industrial Railroad NCIRR (New Castle Industrial RR) we will be providing Caboose rides. Power for the train will be either x-Mon Super 7 B-23 or x-BAR Chop Nose GP-9. Consist will be (preliminary lineup) x-NKP BayWindow 479 (recently moved by truck to our location), x-PC Transfer Caboose (Just freshly Primered), x-Reserve Mining Caboose and x-PRR N8 Cabin (undergoing restoration but owner says it should be OK for the trips) So a Loco and 4 Cabooses should keep the Kids and Public happy. It has always been a success in the past. Good weather is predicted! Train will operate starting at 11:00 with as many trips it can get in til 3:00ish. The train will operate on aprox 3-4 miles of x-PRR Trackage from Cherry St. Mahoningtown south to the NS interchange and back north to the Tower on Cherry St. and continue North into New Castle and return South to the Tower. Also scheduled to be on hand is a Speeder Car, Hand Car and Bicycle Car for free rides on yard tracks of the ISS Railcar Shops, (a local car repair shop). It may also be possible for me to take a few fellows into their shop to inspect PRR-N5c which is undergoing restoration. (actually demolition so far) We will see about that! So if you have nothing planned on Sunday, stop on up into Mahoningtown. If you get lost coming in, just listen for Train Horns or ask for directions. To help get a better idea where the event is taking place, visit this site and look over the Map for directions. http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/bvjc/index.html Any additional questions? email me, I will try to answer. Thanks for your time, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] August 17th, New Castle PA. PRR, P&LE, B&O List, I would like to make a public announcement on behalf of the Beaver Valley Jct Chapter of the NHRS. On Sunday Aug 17 from 11:00am to 4:00pm the Community of Mahoningtown Pa. (outskirts of New Castle Pa.) is holding their annual Town Community Day. The BVJC has participated in this event the past 3-4 years. This year is no different. An invitation is being sent to all local railfans of this area to come on out and enjoy the sites. The Mahoningtown area was/is a large Railroad area. The PRR had their Yards in Mahoningtown, The P&LE, B&O was located in West Pittsburg, CSX still operates there and the NS is in the area as well. As usual the BVJC is adding the railroad "flavor" to this Festival. On display and open for tour will be the on going renovation of "UN" Tower. The Tower, which many of you locals know, was moved 2 miles from its original spot in West Pittsburg to Cherry St in Mahoningtown. Still aways to go on the work but it is coming along. As in the past the BVJC with cooperation with local Industrial Railroad NCIRR (New Castle Industrial RR) we will be providing Caboose rides. Power for the train will be either x-Mon Super 7 B-23 or x-BAR Chop Nose GP-9. Consist will be (preliminary lineup) x-NKP BayWindow 479 (recently moved by truck to our location), x-PC Transfer Caboose (Just freshly Primered), x-Reserve Mining Caboose and x-PRR N8 Cabin (undergoing restoration but owner says it should be OK for the trips) So a Loco and 4 Cabooses should keep the Kids and Public happy. It has always been a success in the past. Good weather is predicted! Train will operate starting at 11:00 with as many trips it can get in til 3:00ish. The train will operate on aprox 3-4 miles of x-PRR Trackage from Cherry St. Mahoningtown south to the NS interchange and back north to the Tower on Cherry St. and continue North into New Castle and return South to the Tower. Also scheduled to be on hand is a Speeder Car, Hand Car and Bicycle Car for free rides on yard tracks of the ISS Railcar Shops, (a local car repair shop). It may also be possible for me to take a few fellows into their shop to inspect PRR-N5c which is undergoing restoration. (actually demolition so far) We will see about that! So if you have nothing planned on Sunday, stop on up into Mahoningtown. If you get lost coming in, just listen for Train Horns or ask for directions. To help get a better idea where the event is taking place, visit this site and look over the Map for directions. http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/bvjc/index.html Any additional questions? email me, I will try to answer. Thanks for your time, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://icatangelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: joe@dille.montgomery.pa.us (Joe Dille) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:48:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] General rail road mailing list? Is there a general purpose mailing list for railroad memorabilia? Please let me know the sign up address. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Joe Dille Telford, PA USA joe@dille.montgomery.pa.us http://home.jtan.com/~joe/joe.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] TLC Publishing update Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:02:18 -0400 Hi All, Since no one on the PRR lists replied that they called for an update recently, I gave it a try late last week. I have been calling for an update on the book about every 3 months. The conversation started off reasonably well when Tom listed the many reasons for the delays. I mentioned that I did understand delays because of my experience with my X29 project. Then about 2 sentences later, when I mentioned in a calm voice that the last time I called for an update was April, he sort of cracked, kind of like shifting gears on me. His voice went up at least an octave and was on the verge of a yell. He offered to refund my money AND give me the book when it was ready. All of this because he somehow "sensed" I was angry with him. I was not. I abruptly told him his generous offer was not necessary, and got OFF the phone. It is somewhat obvious the book delay have taken a mental toll on him. I just want my book. It's just that simple. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:52:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TLC Publishing update --part1_18a.1e0c42f6.2c6c456f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's a shame that he has gotten so stressed about this project. Everyone I know who has been waiting for the Pennsy book has exercised a great deal of patience and understanding. I just hope his reaction is not indicative of some as-yet undisclosed problem. cbaker #1918 --part1_18a.1e0c42f6.2c6c456f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a shame that he has gotten so stressed about this= project.  Everyone I know who has been waiting for the Pennsy book has= exercised a great deal of patience and understanding.  I just hope his= reaction is not indicative of some as-yet undisclosed problem.

cbaker #1918 --part1_18a.1e0c42f6.2c6c456f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:02:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] TLC Publishing update Hi All, Since no one on the PRR lists replied that they called for an update recently, I gave it a try late last week. I have been calling for an update on the book about every 3 months. The conversation started off reasonably well when Tom listed the many reasons for the delays. I mentioned that I did understand delays because of my experience with my X29 project. Then about 2 sentences later, when I mentioned in a calm voice that the last time I called for an update was April, he sort of cracked, kind of like shifting gears on me. His voice went up at least an octave and was on the verge of a yell. He offered to refund my money AND give me the book when it was ready. All of this because he somehow "sensed" I was angry with him. I was not. I abruptly told him his generous offer was not necessary, and got OFF the phone. It is somewhat obvious the book delay have taken a mental toll on him. I just want my book. It's just that simple. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Athearn PRR express car Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:06:24 +0000 Does the Athearn PRR Tuscan express reefer have any basis in reality? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn PRR express car Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:45:23 +0000 Norm asked: Does the Athearn PRR Tuscan express reefer have any basis in reality? NO! All PRR 50 ft reefers were steel cars. However, the Athearn car can be used to model a Pacific Fruit Express Class BR-1 50 ft express reefer which you would have seen on the Pennsy in head end traffic. The car body's a little too narrow and the roof profile is a little too high; however, if you add hatch platforms, lower the profile of the fishbelly underframe, and substitute 8 ft wheelbase express trucks for the ones in the kit (Bethlehem Car Works #95A), the model looks pretty good. Champ made decals for this car, which are out of production but can be found at a good decal vendor. Save the Athearn trucks for other 40 ft express cars. For more details, see "PFE's Ice Reefers: Operations and Express Cars" by Tony Thompson in the April 1987 Railroad Model Craftsman. Here's a prototype photo of one on pay side of the RPI website: http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Reefers/50-foot/Reefers- 50-ft-express-PFE-1951-Whittaker.jpg Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Cincinatti Convention question Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:50:49 +0000 List: Who do I contact for possibly scheduling a presentation for this convention? I am thinking of giving a presentation on train operations for Warsaw, Indiana in 1965 prior to the article that I am writing for the Keystone. Thanks in advance! Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cincinatti Convention question Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:22:18 -0400 Persons interested in making a presentation during the Cincinnati 2004 Annual Meeting should contact Chairman Rick Bailey at: rick_b@bctid.org I would suggest you do it ASAP as they have a planning meeting on 08-17. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn PRR express car Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:31:53 -0500 . Champ made decals for this > car, which are out of production but can be found at a good decal vendor. > Save the Athearn trucks for other 40 ft express cars. Athearn produced the car in the PFE scheme. With the correct trucks as suggested, it is not a bad filler until something better comes along. I always remember there is a shot in Pennsy Power I or II of a GG1 and the first car back is just such a PFE car. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:01:47 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] General rail road mailing list? Joe Dille wrote: > Is there a general purpose mailing list for railroad memorabilia? Please let > me know the sign up address. One such is as below: =============================================================== General information ------------------- The Railroadiana List is a mailing list devoted to the exchange of infor- mation among people interested in collecting, buying or selling items of railroad interest. The Railroadiana Digest contains the articles submit- ted to the Railroadiana List, but accumulated into a single larger email message rather than one article at a time. There are presently about 400 subscribers to these lists. List subscribers should expect 4 or more messages a day. Digest subscribers should expect a digest twice a week or more often. If mailbox clutter is a problem, subscribe to the digest rather than to the regular list. What is a Mailing List? ----------------------- A Mailing List is a computer program that accepts plain text electronic mail messages, and redistributes those messages to the electronic mailboxes of the subscribers. The key points in the preceding sentence are: 1) computer program - the operation of the list is by and large automated. In the normal case, no human reads mail to the mailing list until after it has been delivered to the subscribers. 2) plain text - the mailing list can not accept messages which contain attached files, HTML encoding, rich-text formatting, or anything at all other than plain text. You must configure your own email program to send messages in plain text format in order to use the mailing list. AOL version 6 users are out of luck; we recommend using a previous version of AOL software or a different email service. 3) redistributes - since the mail is being redistributed to all the list subscribers, it is not necessary to keep much text from preceding messages in your message to the list - everyone has already read the original message and knows the references. The software enforces this crudely by insisting there must be more new lines in a message than quoted lines. Sending messages to the Mailing list ------------------------------------ To submit an article to the list, subscribers may address email to "rrdiana@nshore.org" (and please include a meaningful subject in the Subject: field for the convenience of readers). The normal rules of mailing list courtesy should apply. These include (but are not limited to) at least the following: Messages sent to the list should be about collecting, buying or selling items of railroad interest. Other conversations should be directed to the individuals involved and not to the list at large. That is, cut the chatter and be careful of the destination of your replies. Large listings of items for sale should not be sent to the list. Rather, submit an article explaining what is for sale, give a few examples, and give an email address or other method (URL, email file retrieval etc.) whereby interested readers can obtain the whole list of items offered. Binaries (scanned photos etc.) should not be submitted to the list - handle them as above by submitting a brief article describing the file and how it may be obtained. Due to the triply unfortunate lack of enforcement of terms-of- service agreements by some email service providers, some sites have been identified as major sources of spam (unsolicited commercial email.) This mail host will refuse to accept email from mail services that have repeatedly been the source of spam email and that have not responded to reports of email abuse. This may result in a situation whereby a subscriber can receive mailing list mail but can not send messages to the mailing list. If you find that this is the case, ask another list subscriber to forward the information to the list maintainer - in some cases the "mail ban" can be removed in hopes that no more spam mail ill be received. It is important to consult with your own email provider's tech service people regarding their efforts to block spam originating from their accounts. Due to the unfortunate state of email delivery on the internet, subscriber addresses are removed from the list after a number of successive unsuccessful mail delivery attempts. If you find that you were a subscriber but have not been receiving articles or digests lately, please resubscribe using the instructions below. To (re)subscribe to the mailinglists, simply send a message with the word "subscribe" in the Subject: field to the -request address of that list. It is best to have nothing extraneous in the body of the email message so that your request can be processed automatically by the distribution software. As in: To: rrdiana-request@nshore.org For Railroadiana: Subject: subscribe - or - For the Railroadiana To: rrdiana-d-request@nshore.org Digest: Subject: subscribe To unsubscribe from a mailinglist, simply send a message with the word (you guessed it :-) "unsubscribe" in the Subject: field to the -request address of that list. As in: To: rrdiana-request@nshore.org For Railroadiana: Subject: unsubscribe - or - For the Railroadiana To: rrdiana-d-request@nshore.org Digest: Subject: unsubscribe In the event your address changes, it would probably be the wisest to first send an unsubscribe from the old address, and then a new subscribe from the new address. Be aware that if you have your mail forwarded to a different mailbox from the one from which you subscribed to the list, there may be some difficulties in unsubscribing. Most (un)subscription requests are processed automatically without human intervention. Do not send multiple (un)subscription or info requests in one mail. Only one will be processed per mail. NOTE: The -request server usually does quite a good job in discrimin- ating between (un)subscribe requests and messages intended for the maintainer. If you'd like to make sure a human reads your message, make it look like a reply (i.e. the first word in the Subject: field should be "Re:", without the quotes of course); the -request server does not react to replies. Inquiries, comments, or mail distribution problems may be addressed to the list maintainer, Rick DeMattia (rad@nshore.org). The archive server ------------------ Every submission sent to this list is archived. The size of the archive varies - only the last 30 single articles are kept, but all back issues of the digest are kept and can be retrieved from the archive server. You can look at the header of every mail coming from this list to see under what name it has been archived. The X-Mailing-List: field contains the mailaddress of the list and the file in which this submission was archived. To get you started try sending a mail to rrdiana-d-request address like the following: To: rrdiana-d-request@nshore.org Subject: archive send volume2001/11 quit You should receive by return email Volume 2001 Number 11 of the digest. Retrieving a misplaced single message ------------------------------------- It may happen that you misplaced an important article from the list, one that you wished to reply to. You may be able to retrieve a copy of the message, providing it is still in the archive, First, identify the file number of the message to be retrieved. You may do this by sending a message like this: To: rrdiana-request@nshore.org Subject: archive send latest/LIST quit Be sure to capitalize latest/LIST just as in the example. The archive server program will return you a mail message containing the file number, date, sender and subject of the articles presently in the archive. The format will look like this: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Last updated: Tue May 20 00:04:09 1997; next up: Wed May 21 00:04:09 1997 FILE DATE SENDER LINES SUBJECT ===== ====== ============== ====== =================================== 2179 May 18 E1607@aol.com (26) Re: [rrdiana] Re: business cars-sho 2180 May 18 PEK3@aol.com (38) New lantern reference 2181 May 18 Tom Coughlin (74) Date Nail collection for sale ... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= If you can identify the message you want to retrieve, then send a second mail message like this: To: rrdiana-request@nshore.org Subject: archive send latest/2181 quit for example, to retrieve message 2181 of May 18 about Date Nail collection for sale. Please note though that the messages scroll off the archive as new messages arrive, so items at the top of the list can vanish very quickly. In that case you may wish to retrieve back issues of the digest version of the list, as in the previous example. -- Rick DeMattia =-===================== best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Legitimate for the PRR? Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:53:12 +0000 Walthers has announced the release of a Pullman-Standard 52-seat coach. The ready-to-run model, scheduled for release in October, will feature General Steel Castings 41-N truck sideframes, working diaphragms, flush-fitting windows, and wire grab irons (installed by modeler). The cars will be offered in the following road names: Amtrak; Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe; Chesapeake & Ohio; Chicago & North Western; Denver & Rio Grande Western; Great Northern; New York Central; Northern Pacific; Pennsylvania RR; Rock Island; Southern Pacific; and Union Pacific. An undecorated model is also available. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Lew Matt has had an Acident Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:22:04 -0400 Hello my name is Scott Burris I am a good friend of Lew's he has asked me to email all of his contacts letting them know he has had an accident and is in the hospital with a broken leg he is alright and should return soon he asked that you please hold any mail to him for a few days so he doesn't get totally swamped thank you and sorry for any in convenience and thank you for your patience. Scott Burris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Lew Matt has had an Acident Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:22:04 -0400 Hello my name is Scott Burris I am a good friend of Lew's he has asked me to email all of his contacts letting them know he has had an accident and is in the hospital with a broken leg he is alright and should return soon he asked that you please hold any mail to him for a few days so he doesn't get totally swamped thank you and sorry for any in convenience and thank you for your patience. Scott Burris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:24:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Perry County RR (PRR Interchange) From: Jerry Britton Working on an article for The Keystone on Duncannon, PA. Am looking at valuation maps of the area and it's interesting to see how the PRR interchanged with the Perry County RR. The interchange was kept at the same location even after the PRR realigned to a new RoW from the original RoW through Duncannon. Would be neat to model, but I don't have the room at that location. Anyway, two questions: 1) What was the actual name of the railroad that ran from Duncannon to New Bloomfield? Was it the "Perry County Railroad"? 2) When did operations cease on the Perry County RR? The 1945 CT1000 no longer shows the interchange. But the val maps, revised to 1967 still shows the track in place (which isn't unusual). Other comments: 1) The land around the team track (still present) is labeled as owned by the Suplee Milk Company (for those interested in modeling). 2) To the west, along the old line, two buildings are drawn and labeled. Usually buildings are not shown unless they are related to the railroad. Usually only property lines are shown. One is labeled as a beverage store and the other as a fire house. Since they are right on the old RoW, might one draw a conclusion that perhaps this was the original station before the track realignment to along the river? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:09:01 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] HO Fiber optics Hi, giz, I'm considering using fiber optics to illuminate some HO-scale signals on my layout. If one of you out there has worked with fiber optics (I haven't), I'd appreciate hearing from you off-list - I have some questions you might be able to answer. TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Genuine World War II Troop Kitchen Car Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:05:22 -0400 Lists, There is an actual government surplus Troop Kitchen Car, used by the Air Force as a support car for a Missile Training Car, at auction. It is located at Lynn Haven, FL, just North of Panama City on the BAYL. If you're interested, see: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=234027 I subscriBe the the "Panama City News-Herald" which ran this as a local interest article this morning. There are plenty of photos on the website. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Genuine World War II Troop Kitchen Car Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:34:49 +0000 Now if only there was an actual government surplus cook available - NAH! :-) > Lists, > > There is an actual government surplus Troop Kitchen Car, used by the Air > Force as a support car for a Missile Training Car, at auction. It is located > at Lynn Haven, FL, just North of Panama City on the BAYL. > > If you're interested, see: > http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=234027 > > I subscriBe the the "Panama City News-Herald" which ran this as a local > interest article this morning. There are plenty of photos on the website. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:47:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Genuine World War II Troop Kitchen Car >Lists, > >There is an actual government surplus Troop Kitchen Car, used by the Air >Force as a support car for a Missile Training Car, at auction. It is located >at Lynn Haven, FL, just North of Panama City on the BAYL. > >If you're interested, see: >http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=234027 > >I subscriBe the the "Panama City News-Herald" which ran this as a local >interest article this morning. There are plenty of photos on the website. > >Gregg Mahlkov Greg et al, Cool! There are a couple of these ex-Strategic Air Command cars at the Heart of Dixie RR museum in Calera Alabama, and a nearly mint kitchen car in Atlanta. This car is HEAVILY modified and I was amused to see the Acquisition Value listed as $200,000.00 US since these troop cars were bult for a whole lot less than that! Right now, the price is hard to beat at $35, but getting it moved anywhere could cost ya big time I wonder what my neighbors would say if I had one in the back yard...? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:08:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] HO GG1 Decals --part1_146.173176f3.2c6e89c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Opinions please. For the five stripe scheme on a Tuscan unit and the single stripe with large Keystone scheme on the DGLE unit, what are the best decals currently available for these units? TIA, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_146.173176f3.2c6e89c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Opinions please.  For the five stripe sche= me on a Tuscan unit and the single stripe with large Keystone scheme on the=20= DGLE unit,  what are the best decals currently available for these unit= s?

TIA,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_146.173176f3.2c6e89c7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:00:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1 Decals > Opinions please. For the five stripe scheme on a Tuscan unit and the >single stripe with large Keystone scheme on the DGLE unit, what are the >best decals currently available for these units? TIA, Evan Leisey >RCT&HS 346 Evan, Your choices are Microscale or Champ. Microscale are nice because they are so thin...but IIRC, almost none of the sets are 100% accurate or complete. I always seem to end up piecing things together. I assume (always dangerous) that you would like to do the 5 stripe in yellow, not gold? The tuscan/5 stripe gold probably only lasted about 6 months, and may not have even been applied to the second batch of Tuscan GG1s...Microscale offers set 87-39 Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) Electric Locomotive - GG1 - 5 Stripe Scheme - Dulux. This set provides the PRR keystones for the sides and the blank keystones to which you will need to add numbers for the end doors. One detail I notice that appears to be missing from the microscale 5 stripe sheets is the single thin pinstripe that along the bottom of the car body. This stripe is included in at least the gold 5 stripe set from Champ. The Champ dulux set (BRH-20) may now include the blank keystones, but their previous set did not (IIRC). I have used Champs gold leaf 5 stripe GG1 set on a whole bunch of locos and it is very reasonable. For the DGLE/single stripe use either Microscales set 87-67 or Champs set EH-253. The microscale set does not include the needed blank keystones and only one set of numbered end keystone (4811?). If the numbered keystones are 4811, they are not appropriate for any of the mass produced GG1 models as they all represent motors 4858 and higher. Another detail to note on single stripe units is the sheet metal over the vent where the stripe was painted. I am not familiar with the Champ set, although the number indicates that it may have been recently revised. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:32:02 -0800 From: smartcommco@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve 150th Anniversary Celebration For Immediate Release: Contact: Harry Webber Press@BrandedFilms.com EIGHTH WONDER OF THE MODERN WORLD, THE WORLD FAMOUS HORSESHOE CURVE GETS READY TO CELEBRATE ITS 150TH BIRTHDAY. ALTOONA, PA. In 1851 a brash young civil engineer by the name of J.Edgar Thomson set out to build the first railroad to scale the mighty Allegheny Mountains in Central Pennsylvania. When his boss balked at putting up the money for this seemingly impossible task, young J.Edgar got himself elected to the Presidency of the Pennsylvania Railroad one year later and raised the $3 million dollars it would take to get the job done. Considered an engineering masterpiece even today, his 14.4 mile climb from Altoona up the face of the east slope of Allegheny Mountain, reverses itself at Kittanning Point into an amazing Horseshoe and ascends almost 2 feet every 100 feet, clinging to drop dead valley walls and ridges all the way to the summit. Within three short years J. Edgar Thomson had opened up an East-West corridor that made possible the industrialization of an entire nation. John Edgar Thomson is also credited with being the first to organize a corporation into line and staff management positions. For this significant achievement he is considered to be the father of the modern day global corporation. For this reason alone this event is expected to receive wide support from America's business community. Taking the lead in celebrating these amazing and historic events the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona (the base for Thomson's assault on the Alleghenies) has planned a month-long series of commemorative events. With a kick-off planned for the Museum's annual Railfest event in October of this year, a special excursion train lead by the last remaining passenger locomotives of the once-mighty Pennsylvania railroad will travel from Philadelphia to Altoona for the occasion. The actual February birthday will feature a dedication event sponsored by the American Society of Civil Engineers which had named the Horseshoe Curve one of the original Seven Wonders of the Modern World in the early 1900's. ASCE will designate the Curve as a National Civil engineering Landmark at the February event to be held in Pittsburgh. In preparation for the June 2004 month-long celebration the Museum will release an RFP to assess the possibility of returning the last remaining K4 steam locomotive currently under restoration at Steamtown to Altoona in time for the celebration. Once the assessment is completed the Museum will seek a Corporate Sponsor to partner with the State's Department of Transportation to make it happen. The centerpiece of the 150th Anniversary will be the dedication of the nation's first Railroaders Memorial Monument to be unveiled at the apex of the Horseshoe Curve on Memorial Day of 2004. The Memorial will commemorate those men and women who have given their lives in service of the Railroads of North America. The Museum has issued an open invitation to all operators of classic locomotives in North America for them to participate in a Memorial Display of Motive Power that is expected to be the largest collection of vintage steam and diesel locomotives in the nation's history on July 4th. The Railroaders Memorial Museum wants everyone to remember the men and women who gave their blood, sweat and lives to build "the Eighth Wonder of the Modern World," the 150 year old Horseshoe Curve and every other mile of track across this great nation. Museum President Dr. Andy Mulhollen puts it best, when he says, "These men, these women, they truly are the backbone of America. They cannot be forgotten. They will not be forgotten." A press conference announcing the slate of events will be held will be held at 10AM on August 18 in the theater at the Railroaders Museum ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:21:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] prr talk; TLC BOOK From: beth capl caples I was thinking about buying the book "The Steamliners " by TLC. How is it for PRR content? Or does it just mention the PRR in a casual sentence! Does it have any drawings of PRR streamlined steam and which classes? Thanks for the input! John Caples ---------------------------------alam---------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:43:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Adams Tower From: Frederick Ripley Does anyone have photos of Adams Tower, at the east end of the Ft. Wayne Yard? I am modeling this area in the mid-60's, and have never seen a photo of the building. Out of curiosity, when was it closed/torn down? Early/mid-80's? Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:10:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] GG1 Decals -- Thanks! --part1_106.263e8a01.2c6f24c8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the help on the HO decals for the GG1. As usual, the members of this list were very helpful. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_106.263e8a01.2c6f24c8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Thanks to all for the help on the HO decals for= the GG1.   As usual, the members of this list were very helpful.<= BR>
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_106.263e8a01.2c6f24c8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:29:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] P85 Coach --part1_17d.1f275c75.2c6f292e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just got wind of a problem with the windows on the Des Plaines Hobbies HO model of the P85BR coach. Is this true? And if so, what is the nature of the problem? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_17d.1f275c75.2c6f292e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Just got wind of a problem with the windows on=20= the Des Plaines Hobbies HO model of the P85BR coach.

  Is this true?  And if so, what is the nature of the problem?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_17d.1f275c75.2c6f292e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adams Tower Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:19:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_065B_01C363BE.66F56480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred: I don't have a photo of the tower but I know two friends that do. I will = be asking if one of them can email me jpg file. There is a good photo = of Adams tower in the March 1983 edition of the Keystone (the Fort Wayne = Division article). If you are interested, I can scan and email you a = copy of the photo.=20 The tower was operational as late as the summer of 1986. I think late in = the year, it was lost to fire (arson or accident) Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Ripley=20 To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:43 AM Subject: [PRR] Adams Tower Does anyone have photos of Adams Tower, at the east end of the Ft. = Wayne Yard? I am modeling this area in the mid-60's, and have never seen a = photo of the building. Out of curiosity, when was it closed/torn down? Early/mid-80's? Thanks, Fred R. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_065B_01C363BE.66F56480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred:
 
I don't have a photo of the tower but I know two friends that do. I = will be=20 asking if one of them can email me  jpg file. There is a good photo = of=20 Adams tower in the March 1983 edition of the Keystone (the Fort Wayne = Division=20 article). If you are interested, I can scan and email you a copy of the = photo.=20
 
The tower was operational as late as the summer of 1986. I think = late in=20 the year, it was lost to fire (arson or accident)
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Ripley
To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com= ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 = 12:43=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Adams = Tower

Does anyone have photos of Adams Tower, at the east end = of the=20 Ft. Wayne
Yard?  I am modeling this area in the mid-60's, and = have=20 never seen a photo
of the building.  Out of curiosity, when = was it=20 closed/torn down?
Early/mid-80's?

Thanks, Fred=20 = R.


-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_065B_01C363BE.66F56480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:37:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 Coach From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 02:29 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > =A0 Just got wind of a problem with the windows on the Des Plaines=20 > Hobbies HO model of the P85BR coach. > > =A0 Is this true?=A0 And if so, what is the nature of the problem? The HO model has been confirmed to be fine. The error was made when the=20= model was downsized to N scale. The N scale has the windows offset=20 (from one side to the other) by about 18 scale inches. No word (yet) on whether or not the issue will be fixed for future runs=20= or, for that matter, if there will be future runs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Adams Tower Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:25:23 -0400 Fred, Right now, i don't have a picture, but maybe in the next few weeks i'll find one. This week I started to catalog a slide collection that was donated to the society by he gentelmen G.D. Graeff. In my eyes he was an inovator for those of us that couldn't see these towers. Whenever he rode a train, he would stand at the rear vestibule and take pictures of the towers, stations and other notable features of the line. For example, an special excursion was run i'm guessing from Harrisburg to Atlantic City on July 21, 1962. He got on at Royalton and took pictures of towers and stations. This includes pictures of towers on the PRSL, and signal bridges with smash boards. If I find anything in the next few weeks i'll let you know. I've done around 32 magazines of 36 slides each in the past week, and i have 3 and 1/2 more boxes left. Give or take at least 2000 slides. I'll keep an eye out. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:34:24 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Perry County RR (PRR Interchange) Jerry, According to Edson's Railroad Names book, the Perry County Railroad was listed as being in operation from fiscal year 1890 (sometime in 1889) to September 1903. In September 1903 it became the Susquehanna River and Western Railroad which was abandoned in March of 1939. This is a starting point. I do not have any more information. Dave At 10:24 AM -0400 8/15/03, Jerry Britton wrote: >Working on an article for The Keystone on Duncannon, PA. > >Am looking at valuation maps of the area and it's interesting to see >how the PRR interchanged with the Perry County RR. The interchange >was kept at the same location even after the PRR realigned to a new >RoW from the original RoW through Duncannon. Would be neat to model, >but I don't have the room at that location. > >Anyway, two questions: > >1) What was the actual name of the railroad that ran from Duncannon >to New Bloomfield? Was it the "Perry County Railroad"? > >2) When did operations cease on the Perry County RR? The 1945 CT1000 >no longer shows the interchange. But the val maps, revised to 1967 >still shows the track in place (which isn't unusual). > >Other comments: > >1) The land around the team track (still present) is labeled as >owned by the Suplee Milk Company (for those interested in modeling). > >2) To the west, along the old line, two buildings are drawn and >labeled. Usually buildings are not shown unless they are related to >the railroad. Usually only property lines are shown. One is labeled >as a beverage store and the other as a fire house. Since they are >right on the old RoW, might one draw a conclusion that perhaps this >was the original station before the track realignment to along the >river? >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:01:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE TLC STEAMLINERS --part1_38.3c1c016a.2c6fbd6f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John. Please keep in mind this is a book of streamlined steam, the only hard cover I know of. There is PENNSY content About 8 pages of 158. This is in 2 sections plus 2 stray photos (GG-1 & S-1). I do not remember any PRR plans. Hope this helps. Ray Burghart SPF --part1_38.3c1c016a.2c6fbd6f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John.
Please keep in mind this is a book of  streamlined steam, the only hard= cover I know of. There is PENNSY content About 8 pages of 158. This is in 2= sections plus 2 stray photos (GG-1 & S-1). I do not remember any PRR pl= ans.
Hope this helps.

Ray Burghart SPF --part1_38.3c1c016a.2c6fbd6f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Unbelievable! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:46:29 -0400 Hi All, It is pretty amazing what happens when 2 people want something on Ebay REALLY bad. I give you the following. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2187225664&category=130&r d=1 A single slide from 1968 went for $32.00!!! It was nicely composed and exposed, but geeez! I had to watch it to the end. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbelievable! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:08:43 -0500 Hey, there was a roughly 3 x 4 photo of a double headed steam freight with smoke flying on the P-RSL that went for over $40 a week or so ago. Hey, maybe the "winner" is a big Alco fan. Or, just couldn't stand the thought of losing. Or, maybe his Dad was in the cab. Tom Mahon -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lane Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:46 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Unbelievable! Hi All, It is pretty amazing what happens when 2 people want something on Ebay REALLY bad. I give you the following. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2187225664&category=1 30&r d=1 A single slide from 1968 went for $32.00!!! It was nicely composed and exposed, but geeez! I had to watch it to the end. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT) From: george carey Subject: [PRR] walthers cars I'm new to the list so I apologize if this has been asked before. Which, if any, of the Walthers Budd and Pullman Standard passenger cars are authentic for The PRR? Thanks -- GDC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:28:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbelievable! --- Bill Lane wrote: > Hi All, > > It is pretty amazing what happens when 2 people want something on > Ebay > REALLY bad. I give you the following. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2187225664&category=130&r > d=1 A single slide from 1968 went for $32.00!!! It was nicely > composed and exposed, but geeez! Not only is it original 1968 Kodachrome, which you can't get any more, it was not developed by Kodak, making it 20 or 30 times rarer. And those locomotives don't exist any more, and that railroad hasn't been around for decades, so this slide is just unbelievably rare and vintage and all those things eBay sellers carry on about even when every hobby shop in the land has the item in stock. It's obvious that its rarity alone makes it a steal at $30.99 + S&H. Why in 10 or 20 years this may be the only original 1968 Kodachrome slide not developed by Kodak in existance and then think of the value. The potential is mind boggling. I've been watching too much eBay. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 02:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbelievable! Hello Bob,Bill and list... I collect PRR and Penn Central slides. I have never seen an original PRR 1968 Kodachrome go for $32.00. That guy paid WAY too much money for that. I've bought original slides of PRR steam and didn't come close to that kind of money. Just my 2 cents worth.... Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Experimental train ? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:47:40 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C36565.622AF2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone on the list help me out with this please. I'm trying to figure out what it may have been that I saw years ago. When I was a kid in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC. I seen a train that the only was I can describe it was it looked like a jetliner without wings and tail. It was whitish in color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was maybe articulated. ( Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 ) This was not an E or an F unit and I have never seen something like it since. Any help would be appreciated Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C36565.622AF2F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Can = anyone on the=20 list help me out with this please.  I'm trying to figure out what = it may=20 have been that I saw years ago.
When I = was a kid in=20 the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC.  I seen a = train that=20 the only was I can describe it was it looked like a jetliner = without wings=20 and tail.
It was = whitish in=20 color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was maybe = articulated. (=20 Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 )
This = was not an E or=20 an F unit and I have never seen something like it=20 since. 
Any = help would be=20 appreciated
 
Thanks
 
Kenny
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C36565.622AF2F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:16:15 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt asked: I'm trying to figure out what it may have been that I saw years ago. When I was a kid in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC. I seen a train that the only was I can describe it was it looked like a jetliner without wings and tail. It was whitish in color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was maybe articulated. ( Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 ) This was not an E or an F unit and I have never seen something like it since. Did it look like these? http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/train.html http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_amtk50.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/amtk51b.jpg If so, what you saw was the United Aircraft Turbo Train, which was tested in service on the Boston-NYC section of the NEC during the early 1970s. Here's more info on the United Aircraft and later French Turboliners used by Amtrak, CN, and VIA. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel80.html Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:38:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? I recall riding the UA Turbotrain NY-Boston; you could sit up front, high, right behind the engineer and look out over the track. Going through the East River tunnel, the catenary seemed to be about a foot over where you sat! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:35:10 -0400 The UA train was also based in Morrisville for a time and ran between County and Millham in tests. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ken Nesbitt" Cc: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? > Kenny Nesbitt asked: > I'm trying to figure out what it may have been that I saw years ago. > When I was a kid in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC. I > seen a train that the only was I can describe it was it looked like a > jetliner without wings and tail. It was whitish in color, had it's "Nose > cone" painted red and was maybe articulated. ( Hard to remember, I was only 9 > or 10 ) This was not an E or an F unit and I have never seen something like > it since. > > Did it look like these? > http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/train.html > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_amtk50.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/amtk51b.jpg > > If so, what you saw was the United Aircraft Turbo Train, which was tested in > service on the Boston-NYC section of the NEC during the early 1970s. Here's > more info on the United Aircraft and later French Turboliners used by Amtrak, > CN, and VIA. > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel80.html > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:38:30 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] walthers cars George, Welcome aboard. Only the Budd "lounge" car is a PRR-unique car. It is a 29-1 Parlor car from the Congressional and Senator fleet. The PS 4-4-2 and forthcoming 10-5 were assigned to the PRR (and others) and bought by them when the Pullman Co was broken up in 1948. The original 52 seat coach is a SAL design and as such would appear on PRR rails in Florida trains. The PRR, and the RF&P also had these cars in the pool. It is only one half window off from the similar coaches for the ACL Champion pool. The new 52 seat coach is a C&O prototype and appeared in Penn Station on the George Washington, FFV. and Sportsman connections. Of course the R50b express reefer is a PRR built and owned car. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== george carey wrote: > I'm new to the list so I apologize if this has been > asked before. Which, if any, of the Walthers Budd and > Pullman Standard passenger cars are authentic for The > PRR? > Thanks -- GDC > > __________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:20:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C365D6.F3839740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageKen, Last May, enroute PRRTHS Conv., this UA train set was parked on = the siding at the Albany, N.Y. Amtrak station. Looks only slightly more = filthy than when I watched it run over the Canton viaduct. As I recall = it passed at speed, and required 3 fans; 1-here it comes; 2-there it is; = 3-there it goes!!! We considered it the New Haven's answer to NYC's jet = pack RDC. Bring fast camera. Fred ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ken Nesbitt=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:47 AM Subject: [PRR] Experimental train ? Can anyone on the list help me out with this please. I'm trying to = figure out what it may have been that I saw years ago. When I was a kid in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC. = I seen a train that the only was I can describe it was it looked like a = jetliner without wings and tail. It was whitish in color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was = maybe articulated. ( Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 ) This was not an E or an F unit and I have never seen something like it = since.=20 Any help would be appreciated Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C365D6.F3839740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Ken,
         Last May, enroute = PRRTHS=20 Conv., this UA train set was parked on the siding at the Albany, N.Y. = Amtrak=20 station. Looks only slightly more filthy than when I watched it run over = the=20 Canton viaduct.  As I recall it passed at speed, and required 3 = fans;=20 1-here it comes; 2-there it is; 3-there it goes!!! We considered it the = New=20 Haven's answer to NYC's jet pack RDC.  Bring fast=20 camera.           =  =20 Fred
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ken=20 Nesbitt
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 = 5:47=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Experimental = train ?

Can = anyone on the=20 list help me out with this please.  I'm trying to figure out what = it may=20 have been that I saw years ago.
When = I was a kid=20 in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC.  I seen a=20 train that the only was I can describe it was it looked = like a=20 jetliner without wings and tail.
It = was whitish in=20 color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was maybe = articulated. (=20 Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 )
This = was not an E=20 or an F unit and I have never seen something like it=20 since. 
Any = help would be=20 appreciated
 
Thanks
 
Kenny
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C365D6.F3839740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:32:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? Umm, could the one in Albany be one of the French-design Turbos that Amtrak and New York State have been feuding over for years -- I think one at least is now in service after the state paid big bucks to rebuild them. Web searches haven't revealed to me the final disposition of the Sikorsky/UA Turbotrains that Amtrak operated (there are lots of pictures! ), but seem clear that the ones used in Canada by VIA were all scrapped. The UA trains were kind of unique in that there was an "upper deck" bulge at the operating ends as in a dome car -- the engineer sat above the regular passenger seating level (but as I noted there were seats on this upper deck where you could watch the action). On the French turbos, the cab is on the normal floor level. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet and had asked me some questions: http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the following: 1. When were these devices first used? 2. Were they used in just the Larger Cities? Chicago, Philly, NYC, Pgh? or were they used in any smaller cities as well if they had an ordinance on pollution? 3. Was the smoke collected and piped to 1 main brick discharge stack and vented? Any oother details would be appreciated I am sure. You know, this would be a fine addition for a manufacture to supply us model railroaders. Something Tichy should look into......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:39:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet > and had asked me some questions: > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/ > miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg > > They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I > replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the > following: Gary: Are you sure? Other than the covers over the ends, these look more like water columns. I've heard of smoke collectors, however, but only in regard to their use within a roundhouse. If this is a smoke collector, I'm amazed that it works well, given that the pressure of the smoke must navigate the pipe and turn downwards to go underground. I would expect a network above the tops of the collectors going to one central location. Unless, of course, it were vacuum-assisted. Out of my area, so I am not presenting any real objection to the explanation. Just stating a curiosity. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:41:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Umm, could the one in Albany be one of the French-design Turbos > that Amtrak and New York State have been feuding over for years -- > I think one at least is now in service after the state paid big bucks > to rebuild them. > > Web searches haven't revealed to me the final disposition of the > Sikorsky/UA Turbotrains that Amtrak operated (there are lots of > pictures! ), but seem clear that the ones used in Canada by VIA > were all scrapped. > > The UA trains were kind of unique in that there was an "upper > deck" bulge at the operating ends as in a dome car - htte engineer > sat above the regular passenger seating level (but as I noted there > were seats on this upper deck where you could watch the action). > On the French turbos, the cab is on the normal floor level. ANF-Frangeco made the French ones, and there were also units built by Rohr. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel80.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Smoke Collectors List, I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet and had asked me some questions: http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the following: 1. When were these devices first used? 2. Were they used in just the Larger Cities? Chicago, Philly, NYC, Pgh? or were they used in any smaller cities as well if they had an ordinance on pollution? 3. Was the smoke collected and piped to 1 main brick discharge stack and vented? Any oother details would be appreciated I am sure. You know, this would be a fine addition for a manufacture to supply us model railroaders. Something Tichy should look into......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, I am about 99.99999999999% sure these are the Smoke Collectors. The "ball" end you see on the "spout" is round and fits into the stack of a locomotive. I tought sure I had a pic of these in operation on my K4 pages but couldn't find it. There are books in my collection, possibly a Keystone issue as well, that shows these in operation. Yes, they look like Water Plugs but they are not. Evidence will surface sooner or later I am sure. I will look in my pics and relay what I have found....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:14:09 -0500 Gary, Jerry, and list: The T1 picture was taken at the ready tracks at the Chicago 55th St. engine house. While they look like water columns, they are indeed smoke collectors. They were located in the roundhouses, on the ready tracks, and on the outdoor fan tracks not covered by the roundhouse. I have a few other pictures taken at the Chicago facilities. Interestingly, none of the pictures show the devices in use. At both Chicago enginehouses, there were blower buildings. The blowers provided a draft to draw the smoke. There may have also been a scrubber system to clean the smoke before it was vented up a tall stack. I have also heard that the smoke collectors assisted in starting a cold engine in the roundhouse. Gary, I don't have enough information to answer your first 2 questions. I hope to someday model one of the Chicago roundhouses in HO. I don't know if detail parts will ever be available, but maybe a water column could be kitbashed. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:40 AM To: Gary Mittner Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet > and had asked me some questions: > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/ > miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg > > They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I > replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the > following: Gary: Are you sure? Other than the covers over the ends, these look more like water columns. I've heard of smoke collectors, however, but only in regard to their use within a roundhouse. If this is a smoke collector, I'm amazed that it works well, given that the pressure of the smoke must navigate the pipe and turn downwards to go underground. I would expect a network above the tops of the collectors going to one central location. Unless, of course, it were vacuum-assisted. Out of my area, so I am not presenting any real objection to the explanation. Just stating a curiosity. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:16:48 +0000 I can't open the URL but if I remember correctly the T1 smoke deflectors in Chicago had a shape like teardrop on the end and were possible slotted. They connect to a stack that the natural updraft is adequate to pull the smoke through. They definitely existed and in the late 40's someone sent a picture of one to Trains with similar comments about a PRR employee telling him they were smoke collectors. They also had a picture. Trains response was to ask someone else who really knew what they were which was resoundly and overwhelmingly answered by several people that they were indeed smoke collectors for the T1 and the description was on the money. > On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > > > I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet > > and had asked me some questions: > > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/ > > miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg > > > > They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I > > replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the > > following: > > Gary: Are you sure? Other than the covers over the ends, these look > more like water columns. > > I've heard of smoke collectors, however, but only in regard to their > use within a roundhouse. > > If this is a smoke collector, I'm amazed that it works well, given that > the pressure of the smoke must navigate the pipe and turn downwards to > go underground. I would expect a network above the tops of the > collectors going to one central location. Unless, of course, it were > vacuum-assisted. > > Out of my area, so I am not presenting any real objection to the > explanation. Just stating a curiosity. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Norm, I don't think the Smoke Collectors were limited to T1 Locos. The picture I recall seeing, still didn't locate it, was that of 2 K4s's side by side, each having one attached to their Stacks. Maybe it was a calender shot from Audio-Vsual? Will look there next.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Smoke collectors Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:42:15 +0000 I also agree with Andy's assessment that they may well have been ineffective. With at least two T-1's in the picture neither is using the device in spite of the quantity of them. Since they were designed for the T-1's I doubt their existence east of Harrisburg since GG1's and possibly P5a's would be the power choice there. It could very well be a one time trial to get the smoke inspectors off the railroads back in regard to the T-1. My personal unfounded opinion is the logical places for them would be where T-1's congregated on ready tracks which would pretty much limit them to Chicago, St. Louis and Harrisburg if at all. With such a short life and the cost of dieselization occurring at the same time it may well have been a local Chicago operating department expenditure and attempt rather than a system wide solution or expense. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Another observation. These may not have even been for T1 Locos at all. You will notice that the contraption has a round fitting to fit into the stack. A T1 has 2 Stacks. Could the T1 smoke be routed thru 1 Stack only in certain situations? I doubt it. No use using on a T1 if 1 stack is still open venting smoke and ash into the air. I just looked thru a dozen calendars, nothing yet........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Smoke collectors Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:15:30 -0400 I have seen occasional pictures of smoke collectors in books and on videos, but most were large rectangular ducts rather than small and round like water columns. They did indeed curve around downward into the ground where they were ducted and vented elsewhere. Mostly used in engine terminals in cities where smoke was a problem or controlled by ordinance (remember the smoke inspectors standing on bridges as steam locomotives departed Chicago?) I don't recall seeing PRR smoke collectors - I seem to associate the ones I remember with N&W. Hope this helps. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, Well, the K4s photo I am thinking about that shows this in use must not be part of my photo collection. Must have been a book or another source. I went thru my albums and didn't see it. But, I did find out a bit more. I located a photo of E7s 4-4-2 #7479 with this Smoke Collector swung into position and installed into its stack. Location, Chicago, Date, 1939. I will try to get a pic of it up in a day or so. Now back to painting.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Smoke collectors Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:31:32 -0500 Whoa, I never said they were ineffective; I just noted that in none of the photos they were in use. Why that is I cannot say. 2nd, I don't know where this notion that they were designed for the T1's came from. I have Sanborn maps for both Chicago roundhouses. Sanborn maps don't show tracks very well, but buildings are covered well. At the 55th st. enginehouse, there is a building called "Fan & Motor Room", and another called "Smoke Washer". A lot of buildings on Sanborn maps have the build date noted, but unfortunately these do not. The other bad thing about Sanborn maps is they are usually undated. Mine are, but I believe they pre-date the T1. I do have PRR valuation maps for this area as well, but unfortunately they are dated after the enginhouse was torn down, so nothing is shown. Valuation maps that show the enginehouse may have some clues about these smoke washers. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:32:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Smoke Washers --part1_9f.3c9d700c.2c73c75a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This subject brings to mind an article I read in early 60's, when I was in junior high school. The magazine was from the collection of an older gentleman in the neighborhood who built 3/4 " and 1-1/2" live steam locos. The magazine and the date of the article is long forgotten. The opening page showed a head on shot of a Pennsy J1 with the same device as shown in the posted photo. The article covered the subject in general and not just the Pennsy's facility. Other roads like the B&O and the NYC (sorry about that reference :-( , but it was mentioned in the article) and other cities where different systems were being tried as attempts to meet the local smoke ordinances. As for the Pennsy's system, it ducted the smoke to the fan house where it was cleaned with a water filter before being exhausted, I believe, through the boiler house stacks. I do not recall if there was an actually filter elements that was wetted or if nozzles sprayed water across the duct. I have seen systems where water is sprayed on to a screen and the air pulled through the screen to remove the dust. The water was collected in a sump for reuse. The columns by the tracks had an upper section that would telescope and the wheel visible at the head of the column controlled a butterfly type damper vane. As coal smoke and water form acids, I now wonder what was done with the water when it became too dirty? May be in the pre-EPA days it was dumped in the river. Or was it cleaned too? As for its use on a T1, a plate placed over the other stack would have done the trick. When loco's were banked between runs or for longer layovers, a plate put partially across the stack was a common practice to reduce the natural draft. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 2036 (Phila.) --part1_9f.3c9d700c.2c73c75a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   This subject brings to mind an article I read i= n early 60's, when I was in junior high school.  The magazine was from=20= the collection of an older gentleman in the neighborhood who built 3/4 " and= 1-1/2" live steam locos.  The magazine and the date of the article is=20= long forgotten.

  The opening page showed a head on shot of a Pennsy J1 with the same d= evice as shown in the posted photo.  The article covered the subject in= general and not just the Pennsy's facility.  Other roads like the B&am= p;O and the NYC (sorry about that reference :-( , but it was mentione= d in the article) and other cities where different systems were being tried=20= as attempts to meet the local smoke ordinances.

   As for the Pennsy's system, it ducted the smoke to the fan hous= e where it was cleaned with a water filter before being exhausted, I believe= , through the boiler house stacks.  I do not recall if there was an act= ually filter elements that was wetted or if nozzles sprayed water across the= duct.  I have seen systems where water is sprayed on to a screen and t= he air pulled through the screen to remove the dust.  The water was col= lected in a sump for reuse.  The columns by the tracks had an upper sec= tion that would telescope and the wheel visible at the head of the column co= ntrolled a butterfly type damper vane.

  As coal smoke and water form acids,  I now wonder what was done=20= with the water when it became too dirty?  May be in the pre-EPA days it= was dumped in the river.  Or was it cleaned too?

  As for its use on a T1, a plate placed over the other stack would hav= e done the trick.  When loco's were banked between runs or for longer l= ayovers, a plate put partially across the stack was a common practice to red= uce the natural draft.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS 2036 (Phila.) --part1_9f.3c9d700c.2c73c75a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:01:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3144146505_548046_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The United Aircraft Turbo Train operated on the schedule of Amtrak's Flying Yankee (New York to Boston) for several years in the mid-1970's. I regularly rode this train when I was in school in Providence. The "domes" on both ends of the train (the power cars) were a great attraction for me. The engineer's compartment was in the front of each dome and was separated from the passenger compartment only by clear plexiglass. There was a speedometer visible in the passenger compartment and this train regularly broke 100 mph (possibly as high as 120 mph). They were incredibly noisy, particularly when in Penn Station. I believe that the maintenance base was in Providence, so they must have deadheaded between Boston and Providence. As with any experimental train, they were a maintenance headache and I believe there may have been a couple of fires, but they were used in regular service. Canadian National also had one or more UA Turbo Trains that were operated in Canadian corridor service. The UA Turbo Train was the last of several experimental trains that ran over the New Haven RR route starting with the Goodyear/Zeppelin Comet in 1935. I would be interested to know if anyone knows the length of time that the Turbo Train ran in Amtrak service. Doug Nelson. ---------- From: "Ken Nesbitt" To: Subject: [PRR] Experimental train ? Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2003, 5:47 AM Can anyone on the list help me out with this please. I'm trying to figure out what it may have been that I saw years ago. When I was a kid in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC. I seen a train that the only was I can describe it was it looked like a jetliner without wings and tail. It was whitish in color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was maybe articulated. ( Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 ) This was not an E or an F unit and I have never seen something like it since. Any help would be appreciated Thanks Kenny --MS_Mac_OE_3144146505_548046_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? The United Aircraft Turbo Train operated on the schedule of Amtrak's Flying= Yankee (New York to Boston) for seveNSSEyears in the mid-1970's.  I re= gularly rode this train when I was in school in Providence.  The "= domes" on both ends of the train (the power cars) were a great attracti= on for me.  The engineer's compartment was in the front of each dome an= d was separated from the passenger compartment only by clear plexiglass. &nb= sp;There was a speedometer visible in the passenger compartment and this tra= in regularly broke 100 mph (possibly as high as 120 mph).  

They were incredibly noisy, particularly when in Penn Station.  I beli= eve that the maintenance base was in Providence, so they must have deadheade= d between Boston and Providence.  As with any experimental train, they = were a maintenance headache and I believe there may have been a couple of fi= res, but they were used in regular service.  Canadian National also had= one or more UA Turbo Trains that were operated in Canadian corridor service= .  The UA Turbo Train was the last of several experimental trains that = ran over the New Haven RR route starting with the Goodyear/Zeppelin Comet in= 1935.

I would be interested to know if anyone knows the length of time that the T= urbo Train ran in Amtrak service.

Doug Nelson.

----------
From: "Ken Nesbitt" <ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com>
To: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Experimental train ?
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2003, 5:47 AM


Can anyone on the list help m= e out with this please.  I'm trying to figure out what it may have been= that I saw years ago.
When I was a kid in the early to mid '70s, I was down along the NEC.  = I seen a train that the only was I can describe it was it looked like a jetl= iner without wings and tail.
It was whitish in color, had it's "Nose cone" painted red and was= maybe articulated. ( Hard to remember, I was only 9 or 10 )
This was not an E or an F unit and I have never seen something like it sinc= e.
Any help would be appreciated
 
Thanks
 
Kenny

--MS_Mac_OE_3144146505_548046_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:28:21 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? Wish I had ridden the UA set more often. True (tho non PRR) story. Old enough to be safe to tell. Riding the lead dome EB from Penn Station, up on Metro North (as is). 'we' were a couple stations east of Shell, on a thru track (inner) at maybe 65, gradually overtaking a MN EMU set on the outer. JUST as we got into eyeball range of the EMU Control compartment, by some Strange Coincidence the EMU set accelerated, hard and pulled ahead. Since the dome was above the GT set, i could see and hear 'US' accelarate HARDER, pulling BACK ahead... (of course the EMU had station stops to make so...) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:08:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Experimental train ? Re Dave's report on the Turbo/EMU "race": A few years ago I was on an NJT EMU out of Hoboken for Gladstone. As we approached the High Line flyover (Pennsy content. East of Hudson) we started to slow down -- this schedule runs behind a Midtown Direct train to Dover out of Penn Station (Pennsy content again), and the Dover job was late. The conductor made an announcement to that effect. Just then the engineer broke in, "Here he comes now -- should I cut him off?" At least this was intelligible to the passengers, and hopefully not credible. Anybody got stories of announcements on the PA that shouldn't have gotten to the ears of the passengers? Example: On a LIRR MU at Penn Station: "Re-stricting on the hanger!" I guess the engineman was too close to see the signal that night and a trainman had to relay the indication. John Bobsin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Kvnbsh118@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:47:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Panhandle Div. --part1_104.34a13986.2c742d18_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been a member of this group for sometime, (as an onlooker) and I am impressed by the wealth of information possessed by the membership. With that said, I have been collecting information on the Panhandle Div. for modeling from Mingo Jct. to Dennison, OH. in the mid-fifties. Does any one know how many coal trains came off the Cadiz Branch? One a day? One or two a week? Kevin Bush --part1_104.34a13986.2c742d18_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     = ; I have been a member of this group for sometime, (as an onlooker) and= I am impressed by the wealth of information possessed by the membership. &n= bsp;With that said, I have been collecting information on the Panhandle Div.= for modeling from Mingo Jct. to Dennison, OH. in the mid-fifties.  Doe= s any one know how many coal trains came off the Cadiz Branch?  One a d= ay?  One or two a week?  
      Kevin Bush     = --part1_104.34a13986.2c742d18_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:51:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Gary, I have never seen these type smoke collectors appear in any photos from Pittsburgh's 28th Street Yard complex. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Mittner To: ; Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:28 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors > List, > > I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet > and had asked me some questions: > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/miscsubmit /T-1_smoke_collector.jpg > > They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I > replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the following: > > 1. When were these devices first used? > 2. Were they used in just the Larger Cities? Chicago, Philly, NYC, Pgh? > or were they used in any smaller cities as well if they had an > ordinance on pollution? > 3. Was the smoke collected and piped to 1 main brick discharge stack and > vented? > > Any oother details would be appreciated I am sure. You know, this > would be a fine addition for a manufacture to supply us model > railroaders. Something Tichy should look into......Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:51:19 -0400 Gary, I have never seen these type smoke collectors appear in any photos from Pittsburgh's 28th Street Yard complex. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Mittner To: ; Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:28 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors > List, > > I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet > and had asked me some questions: > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/miscsubmit /T-1_smoke_collector.jpg > > They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I > replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the following: > > 1. When were these devices first used? > 2. Were they used in just the Larger Cities? Chicago, Philly, NYC, Pgh? > or were they used in any smaller cities as well if they had an > ordinance on pollution? > 3. Was the smoke collected and piped to 1 main brick discharge stack and > vented? > > Any oother details would be appreciated I am sure. You know, this > would be a fine addition for a manufacture to supply us model > railroaders. Something Tichy should look into......Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:34:35 -0400 Gary, This is not the only case of re-using steam bells on diesels. Don't have the document itself, but the description of Betterment code #1179 reads: "Replacing Small Bell with Larger (T1) Bell on Diesel Switchers" referring to classes BS-24 and BS-24m (the Baldwin centercab RT624 tranfer units). The instruction letter was dated 11-6-53. Wouldn't be surprised if there were other cases as well. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Gary Mittner Cc: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] E44 bell > Gary, > > I think the Foundry in Altoona did close about the time the E44s > were being built. Over on the PRR Catenary list, it was stated that each > bell had a number of of the K4 it came off of. So I was wondering if the > E44 (PRR 4465) up at Strasburg still has it's bell. > I've heard stories about steam bells on new equipment, but like you > said, "no proof" But who knows? > > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:42:48 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] E8 #5888 In a message dated 8/19/03 6:44:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:43:17 -0000 > From: "k4nn22gff" > Subject: Re: Pennsy E8s Restored to Original PRR Livery > > While it can't be included in a list of operable PRR EP22, a fifth E8 > does exist at Cincinnati. PRR 5888 is receiving new side sheets and > is in primer at the Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati. > > Tim. > I don't yet have confirmation that the paint will be completed in time for PRRT&HS' 2004 annual meet in Cincy. But 10-5 sleeper Cascade Gardens is in the same collection. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:42:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] E8 #5888 --part1_ac.46283cf3.2c745648_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/03 6:44:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:43:17 -0000 > From: "k4nn22gff" > Subject: Re: Pennsy E8s Restored to Original PRR Livery > > While it can't be included in a list of operable PRR EP22, a fifth E8 > does exist at Cincinnati. PRR 5888 is receiving new side sheets and > is in primer at the Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati. > > Tim. > I don't yet have confirmation that the paint will be completed in time for PRRT&HS' 2004 annual meet in Cincy. But 10-5 sleeper Cascade Gardens is in the same collection. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ac.46283cf3.2c745648_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/19/03 6:44:43 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:43:17 -0000
   From: "k4nn22gff" <trhyde@fuse.net>
Subject: Re: Pennsy E8s Restored to Original PRR Livery

While it can't be included in a list of operable PRR EP22, a fifth E8
does exist at Cincinnati.  PRR 5888 is receiving new side sheets and is in primer at the Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati.

Tim.


I don't yet have confirmation that the paint will be completed in time for P= RRT&HS' 2004 annual meet in Cincy.  But 10-5 sleeper Cascade Garden= s is in the same collection.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_ac.46283cf3.2c745648_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:01:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Yes, smoke collectors. --part1_f5.3035ce39.2c745aaf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/03 9:55:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:39:51 -0400 > > On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > > > I was contacted by someone who spotted this photo from the internet > > and had asked me some questions: > > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/ > > miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg > > > > They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I > > replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the > > following: > > Gary: Are you sure? Other than the covers over the ends, these look > more like water columns. > > I've heard of smoke collectors, however, but only in regard to their > use within a roundhouse. > > If this is a smoke collector, I'm amazed that it works well, given that > the pressure of the smoke must navigate the pipe and turn downwards to > go underground. I would expect a network above the tops of the > collectors going to one central location. Unless, of course, it were > vacuum-assisted. > > Out of my area, so I am not presenting any real objection to the > explanation. Just stating a curiosity. > Apparently they WERE vacuum-assisted. On Lines West we've found that at least the 1919-era roundhouses (Bradford OH for sure, probably Canton and Crestline and Chicago 59th Street) had fan houses to suck the smoke out of the work areas via the under-roof jacks. Thus, more than normal draft was used, and the vents on the roof no longer corresponded to locomotive stack locations. Having seen these wierd items that resemble impossibly fat water columns in Chicago pix before, a number of my associates out here in the hinterlands are sure that they are in fact smoke collectors, used in an attempt to keep Chicago's city smoke inspectors away. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_f5.3035ce39.2c745aaf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/19/03 9= :55:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Co= llectors
From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:39:51 -0400

On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 10:28  AM, Gary Mittner wrote:

>     I was contacted by someone who spotted this pho= to from the internet
> and had asked me some questions:
> http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/subphoto.cgi?/railpix/submit/
> miscsubmit/T-1_smoke_collector.jpg
>
> They asked if these were really what they were described to be. I
> replied Yes, these are Smoke Collectors. He also had other questions > that I didn't have knowledgable answers for. Need to know the  > following:

Gary: Are you sure? Other than the covers over the ends, these look  more like water columns.

I've heard of smoke collectors, however, but only in regard to their  <= BR> use within a roundhouse.

If this is a smoke collector, I'm amazed that it works well, given that = ;
the pressure of the smoke must navigate the pipe and turn downwards to =
go underground. I would expect a network above the tops of the 
collectors going to one central location. Unless, of course, it were  <= BR> vacuum-assisted.

Out of my area, so I am not presenting any real objection to the 
explanation. Just stating a curiosity.


Apparently they WERE vacuum-assisted.  On Lines West we've found that a= t least the 1919-era roundhouses (Bradford OH for sure, probably Canton and=20= Crestline and Chicago 59th Street) had fan houses to suck the smoke out of t= he work areas via the under-roof jacks.  Thus, more than normal draft w= as used, and the vents on the roof no longer corresponded to locomotive stac= k locations.

Having seen these wierd items that resemble impossibly fat water columns in=20= Chicago pix before, a number of my associates out here in the hinterlands ar= e sure that they are in fact smoke collectors, used in an attempt to keep Ch= icago's city smoke inspectors away.
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_f5.3035ce39.2c745aaf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, As they say, "Proof is in the Pudding". This should be sufficient for any skeptics still holding out on the Smoke Collector debate. This Photo, Dated Chicago 1939 is evidence of these contraptions in use. Photo shows PRR E7s 7479 sitting at 55th? or 59th? Street Yards with one installed into the stack. In the top foreground is another end of one of these collectors. In the future, keep an eye out for more photo evidence of these. I am curious to see if Chicago was actually the only location. It would seem a nice little Keystone article could be assembled showing these Smoke Collectors. Email and let me know the source of any photos. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/smoke.jpg ..............Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:19:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Gary sez, > As they say, "Proof is in the Pudding". This should be sufficient >for any skeptics still holding out on the Smoke Collector debate. This >Photo, Dated Chicago 1939 is evidence of these contraptions in use. >Photo shows PRR E7s 7479 sitting at 55th? or 59th? Street Yards with one >installed into the stack. In the top foreground is another end of one of >these collectors. >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/smoke.jpg Not so fast Gary...I think what you see is a smokebox backwash and flushing system in use. As you know, cinders accumulated in the smokebox around the area of the nozzle and could cause problems with draft etc. This system was used to avoid the laborious task of manually cleaning the cinders out of the smokebox. The collum you see would proved a large flow of water down the stack, and the cinders and water would flow out the bottom. This of course would be much faster than having to unbolt the smokebox front and send a man in there. Happy Rails Bruce ;^)> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Hello Bruce and Gary. Here's my question: Why would the PRR have smoke collectors in the first place? There's a good reason for having them in roundhouses but I can't see any reason for them out in the open. Did Chicago have any kinds of "smoke laws"? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:59:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Lilly Branch From: Jerry Britton What can anyone tell me about the Lilly Branch? Was it still operating in 1954? The 1945 CT1000 shows a siding at Lilly from 16.7 to 18.0 miles from Altoona. A track chart shows this to be on the north side of the mail line. Did the Lilly Branch connect via the above siding? If so, what was the orientation of the turnout (facing Altoona or Johnstown)? CT1000 shows two collieries back the branch, but not far. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:16:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lilly Branch From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 01:59 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > Did the Lilly Branch connect via the above siding? If so, what was the > orientation of the turnout (facing Altoona or Johnstown)? Found it. Connects on the south side of the mains. Didn't jump out at me the first few times I looked at the track chart. Sorry! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Lilly Branch Hi Jerry, Yes,the "Lilly Branch" was in operation in 1954. Checked the "Pittsburgh Div-Branches 1950 track charts" and "Pittsburgh Region-District A-Branches 1962 charts. The Lilly Branch connected to a siding from off of Mainline track 1. Not sure but I think the turnout faced west. The bulk of my PRR-Pittsburgh Div. track and interlocking charts are on loan to Altoona. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:27:47 -0400 Smoke collectors, which I believe were actually called smoke jacks, were used where smoke and fumes were a problem - in roundhouses, stations, and other structures, and where local smoke ordinances prohibited excess smoke, notably Chicago. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing smoke jacks in a video, I believe one of the N&W Glory steam videos from Herron Video. I'd guess it was the volume on the Shaeffer's Crossing Roundhouse and engine terminal. I'll check it next chance I get (don't wait up for me!), and check my website of N&W steam pictures. Google searches have come up empty. Most smoke jacks I remember seeing in pictures were inverted rectangular funnels with the rectangular bottom's long end parallel to the track so positioning of the locomotive wasn't so critical. If they were being used to vent roundhouses, buildings, and stations, often natural draft was sufficient. In engine terminals where they were ducted to an underground system and scrubber or cleaner before being exhausted up a stack, I presume they had blowers on the system. Hope this helps. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bruce F. Smith" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors > Hello Bruce and Gary. > > Here's my question: Why would the PRR have smoke collectors in the > first place? There's a good reason for having them in roundhouses but I > can't see any reason for them out in the open. Did Chicago have any > kinds of "smoke laws"? > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:37:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors I said >Not so fast Gary...I think what you see is a smokebox backwash and >flushing system in use. As you know, cinders accumulated in the smokebox >around the area of the nozzle and could cause problems with draft etc. >This system was used to avoid the laborious task of manually cleaning the >cinders out of the smokebox. The collum you see would proved a large flow >of water down the stack, and the cinders and water would flow out the >bottom. This of course would be much faster than having to unbolt the >smokebox front and send a man in there. > >Happy Rails >Bruce ;^)> So far about 2/3 of you think I'm serious...the other 1/3 know me too well! I was just pulling y'alls leg a bit! If you look at my signature line...there is an addition after my name, like this ;^)> which is the emoticon of a bearded man winking (thats me!). Originally, I was going to post the comment "or else the hostler's gonna get one heck of a shock when he turns on the water"...but then my creative mind took over, and well, you see the result. The problem with drainage bugged me, as it has several of you, but then I figured that would clue you in that I was kidding...unless, of course, you were my daughter, and then you would just be that much more certain that I am a complete idiot... (I am told that they get over that around 20...only another 15 years to go...sigh!) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable landmarks Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:45:41 -0400 The very unfortunate bottom line is that not everyone is nostalgic about historic structures, even one so grand as Penn Station. Often these are the same people who are making the business decisions that result in their demolition. The bottom line is that companies have to do what is necessary to cut losses or eventually go out of business. Real estate in NYC is very valuable, especially in the '60's when PRR was hemmoraging from all arteries, especially the passenger service artery. Air rights for the space above Penn Station, not to mention the land itself, must have been worth a huge amount. I'm sure those who wanted to save it were overruled by a management quorum, if not stockholders too. I regularly lament structures in my area alone that have been razed over the years, both railroad and otherwise. Where do we draw the line between histrical preservation, sentimentality, and progress? If saved, who will foot the bill to take care and keep up many of these structures. I wish it were an easy decision. Demolition of Penn Station, however, was a monumental mistake. That's one that should have been preserved, and at the very least a LOT more pictures and film taken of it before it's destruction. Ah well, since life has no rewind button, we can only learn (hopefully) from past mistakes and move ahead. Along these same lines (dumb moves to save a buck that cost later), how about all the track and infrastructure the railroads tore out over the last few decades and are now putting back? Three tracks from Altoona to Gallitzin may work much of the time, but that assumes you don't have to close one during a peak season for maintenance! We're watching Congress right now slowly permit long distance passenger service to die in this country due to short sightedness an inaction. The same approach got us our terribly obsolete electical power grid distribution system. Don't get me going - I'm starting to get wound up! Better get a frosty cold one and watch that Trains Unlimited video on Penn Station again. Just one SPF's opinion. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:46:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors >Hello Bruce and Gary. > > Here's my question: Why would the PRR have smoke collectors in the >first place? There's a good reason for having them in roundhouses but I >can't see any reason for them out in the open. Did Chicago have any >kinds of "smoke laws"? > > Dave Actually, some very good reasons for seeing them in big cities, and they usually had to do with smoke laws. Steamers only had their fires dropped when absolutely needed as it takes a lot of time to heat a boiler full of water back up. Any sized terminal would have large numbers of steamers sitting on the ready tracks smoking away and really polluting the neighborhood. As noted earlier, they may also have helped get a draft going in a balky engine, allowing a faster start up procedure. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:48:18 -0400 Bill is correct in describing the N&W smoke 'collectors' They were rectangular in shape. I saw two slides from 1956 with an A class parked underneath in Roanoke. (PRR content is that they owned part of the N&W :P) John ------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Wrote: I'm pretty sure I remember seeing smoke jacks in a video, I believe one of the N&W Glory steam videos from Herron Video. I'd guess it was the volume on the Shaeffer's Crossing Roundhouse and engine terminal. I'll check it next chance I get (don't wait up for me!), and check my website of N&W steam pictures. Google searches have come up empty. Most smoke jacks I remember seeing in pictures were inverted rectangular funnels with the rectangular bottom's long end parallel to the track so positioning of the locomotive wasn't so critical. If they were being used to vent roundhouses, buildings, and stations, often natural draft was sufficient. In engine terminals where they were ducted to an underground system and scrubber or cleaner before being exhausted up a stack, I presume they had blowers on the system. Hope this helps. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:00:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 12:45 PM, William Bigler wrote: > We're watching Congress right now slowly permit long distance passenger > service to die in this country due to short sightedness an inaction. > The > same approach got us our terribly obsolete electical power grid > distribution > system. I, for one, absolutely cannot fathom what they are thinking. 9/11 is less than two years ago. When every plane was plucked out of the sky within 45 minutes and remained grounded for five days, how could people get around? TRAINS!!! Amtrak was adding cars and running at their limit (what is it, 20 cars or something). Absolutely a perfect example of "heads in the sand" mentality! Harrisburg is continuing to move with its "Corridor One" project of local rail which, by the way, will use heavy rail!!! First corridor is Lancaster through Harrisburg to Carlisle. Eventual plans to connect other routes, including to Hershey and York. For those who don't know of Harrisburg's mayor Steve Reed (on his fifth four-year term), everything he gets involved in takes on a life of its own...most successful, I might add. Just a matter of time, but the Harrisburg Corridor One could conceivably take over the entire route to Philly if Amtrak disolves/breaks up!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:03:10 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors --- "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > ... Steamers only had their fires dropped > when absolutely needed as it takes a lot of time to heat a boiler > full of water back up. Wouldn't repeated cooling to ambient temperature and reheating to operating temperature cause joints to work and eventually loosen and leak? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:15:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors --part1_39.3ccdf0d1.2c7530ee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every been around a cold loco when it is fired up? Should you ever have the opportunity, take it. You will know why a city would not want to put up with the smoke from incomplete combustion. Plus with an operation the size of the Pennsy's the problem would be compounded by several locos a day being fired up after inspection/repairs. If you have access to Don Ball, Jr.'s book, The Pennsylvania RR 1940s - 1950s, there are photos on pages 135 and 136 that should shed light (smoke) on this question of the need for smoke abatement. Loco terminals were very noisy, very dirty places. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_39.3ccdf0d1.2c7530ee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Every been around a cold loco when it is fired=20= up?   Should you ever have the opportunity, take it.  You wil= l know why a city would not want to put up with the smoke from incomplete co= mbustion.  Plus with an operation the size of the Pennsy's the problem=20= would be compounded by several locos a day being fired up after inspection/r= epairs. 

  If you have access to Don Ball, Jr.'s book, The Pennsylvania RR 1940s= - 1950s, there are photos on pages 135 and 136 that should shed light (smok= e) on this question of the need for smoke abatement.  Loco terminals we= re very noisy, very dirty places.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_39.3ccdf0d1.2c7530ee_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, Here are 2 more photos I found in my collection this morning. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im001107.jpg Both are from Chicago, one (M1 and K4s) is dated Aug 1939 the other (K4s) is undated but the K is lacking class lights so 1939ish is in line as well. Thats it for my photos, now come the books to go thru.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, Those 2 P&LE GP38's were an experimental back in 1939!!!! Here are the actual Photos I wanted to post: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im001109.jpg Sorry,..... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] What cars went where? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:32:54 +0000 I have determined the area I want to model and have a sufficiently long list of industries in that area. Is there anything that would indicate the type of cars switched into those locations? How about the products of those particular industries? I have struck out doing google and yahoo searches. I assume that in the late 50's just about anything beside coal and liquids was pretty much shipped in box cars. What would tell me the number of cars per shift/day/week/etc., contents, possible destinations and frequency of service? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:46:15 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors unless, of course, you were my daughter, and then you would just be that much more certain that I am a complete idiot... (I am told that they get over that around 20...only another 15 years to go...sigh!) Bruce: don't get your hopes up... I have three semi-grown daughters ages 12,23, and 25. It gets worse not better..."Daaaad, you're not gonna wear (do, eat, think) that????" Jim McDaniel, happy father of four in Delmarva ( there is a 14 year old boy too) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:00:38 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] daughters That should be ages 21, 23, and 25! Mea culpa, Jim McD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:58:47 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] What cars went where? >I have determined the area I want to model and have a sufficiently long list >of industries in that area. Is there anything that would indicate the type >of cars switched into those locations? How about the products of those >particular industries? I have struck out doing google and yahoo searches. I >assume that in the late 50's just about anything beside coal and liquids was >pretty much shipped in box cars. What would tell me the number of cars per >shift/day/week/etc., contents, possible destinations and frequency of >service? Thanks These are great questions, that we struggle with all of the time. The ideal situation would be to have the switch lists for a given plant! Not only would you know the type of car, but the road, number and cargo. Unfortunately, who was to know that all that junk paper would be import to someone someday! Like a COLA tower sheet.... So, you're stuck. Your best bet is to look at each industry and develope a list of material received and shipped and then try to come up with appropriate car types. Photographs of similar industries can help as they may have cars in the shots. In addition, don't forget to look the industry up in the MR index...the same type of industry may have been written up. Some things to remember are that large manufactured goods would also be shipped by flat car and gondolas. After that, you'll need to balance car numbers with what you have available and what your layout can handle. After all if your layout can only hold 50 40' boxcars, it doesn't make sense to have 10 industries that require 10 boxcars delivered per day! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:02:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable In a message dated 8/20/03 2:54:47 PM, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << The very unfortunate bottom line is that not everyone is nostalgic about historic structures, even one so grand as Penn Station. >> True. But, I don't get your point. I worked for the Pennsy in NYC and had an office on the North west office corner overlooking the US Post Office and the Turf Bar. It was a great old building. I still think of having a piece of pumpkin pie of the giant Horn & Hardhart dinning room on the 8th Avenue side. But, times change. The railroads couldn't/can't compete in the transportation of people and much freight. If you want nostalgia, go over to the West River piers that used to see, what, dozens of transatlantic passenger ships each week. Most of that business went to JFK and, if I make the 6:45 PM flight from JFK, I can be in London at about 6:00 AM. Coming back is a long lunch. Life may have been simpler then and, from today's perspective, better but, I don't think so. We adapt and move on. BTW, the air rights issue was always an interesting one. The Grand Central rights were sold to what was then the Pan Am Building. We actually talked about selling the air rights to Sunnyside Yard. Did anything ever come of that? This list does a wonderful job of preserving the memory of the PRR. It is fun to think back, but I wouldn't want to live there again. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] What cars went where? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:29:46 -0400 Re: In addition, don't forget to look the industry up in the MR index.. And of course there's the Industry SIG. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:36:50 -0400 Re: We actually talked about selling the air rights to Sunnyside Yard. Did anything ever come of that? We also talked about selling the air rights over the yards around 30th Street Station PHL, I was there in the late 1960s when plans were being discussed. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] What cars went where? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:15:02 -0400 Norm, Do you know what business each industry was in, or do you just have names? Some names are self-explanatory, some aren't. The traffic department kept records, but these were considered commercial intelligence and weren't widely available. Such records were not only of interest to truckers but to other railroads that might be able to "short Haul" the PRR. The traffic department seldom kept records over a couple of years, a mistake IMHO. Having spent my entire career in railroad marketing and sales, I've got a pretty good idea of what each industry produces and where it sources raw materials and ships finished products. Also, what types of cars were used when. How many industries have you got in mind? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:32 PM Subject: [PRR] What cars went where? > I have determined the area I want to model and have a sufficiently long list > of industries in that area. Is there anything that would indicate the type > of cars switched into those locations? How about the products of those > particular industries? I have struck out doing google and yahoo searches. I > assume that in the late 50's just about anything beside coal and liquids was > pretty much shipped in box cars. What would tell me the number of cars per > shift/day/week/etc., contents, possible destinations and frequency of > service? Thanks > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, Here are 2 more photos I found in my collection this morning. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im001107.jpg Both are from Chicago, one (M1 and K4s) is dated Aug 1939 the other (K4s) is undated but the K is lacking class lights so 1939ish is in line as well. Thats it for my photos, now come the books to go thru.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, Those 2 P&LE GP38's were an experimental back in 1939!!!! Here are the actual Photos I wanted to post: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im001109.jpg Sorry,..... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Smoke Collectors List, As they say, "Proof is in the Pudding". This should be sufficient for any skeptics still holding out on the Smoke Collector debate. This Photo, Dated Chicago 1939 is evidence of these contraptions in use. Photo shows PRR E7s 7479 sitting at 55th? or 59th? Street Yards with one installed into the stack. In the top foreground is another end of one of these collectors. In the future, keep an eye out for more photo evidence of these. I am curious to see if Chicago was actually the only location. It would seem a nice little Keystone article could be assembled showing these Smoke Collectors. Email and let me know the source of any photos. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/smoke.jpg ..............Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!N0 tMESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:49:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lilly Branch --part1_63.213d60f7.2c7554f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/20/2003 3:15:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > The Lilly Branch connected to a > siding from off of Mainline track 1. Not sure but I think the turnout > faced west. > Based upon 1951 Pgh Division mainline track chart the turnout faced east. Entry to the branch was from No. 1 track west bound. Rich Orr --part1_63.213d60f7.2c7554f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 08/20/2003 3:15:24 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:

The Lilly Branch connected to a=
siding from off of Mainline track 1. Not sure but I think the turnout
faced west.


Based upon 1951 Pgh Division mainline track chart the turnout faced east.&nb= sp; Entry to the branch was from No. 1 track west bound.

Rich Orr --part1_63.213d60f7.2c7554f4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Re: Steam switching tank cars - Where's my camera when I Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:58:25 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C36766.2DF28720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This comment will be loosley tied to the PRR so I'll consider it to be = acceptable in our PRR forum. For those of you that don't know the Middletown and Hummelstown = Railroad is a small passenger & freight hauling railroad located in = Middletown, PA. It has ties to the PRR since it operates on a branch = line that interchanges with the electrified former PRR trackage near = Harrisburg.=20 Within the past few weeks the M&H has brought back into service a = former Canadian National 2-6-0 steam engine that the railroad will use = for passenger service. The M&H fired up # 91 this past Friday, I presume to get it ready for = passenger operations during this weekend. While I was on their property = watching the locomotive shuffle about the yard the engineer backed the = engine up to a cut of approximately 6 or 7 tank cars. The engine then = proceeded to pull the string of modern day cars out of the yard and take = them to one of the local businesses it serves. =20 I don't know about many of you but I was thrilled and amazed to see a = steam locomtive, built in the early 1900s switching modern day tank = cars. If only I had my camera to share the sight with all of you. I = would assume this happening would be rather rare today as their aren't = many steam locomotives in the US being used for freight revenue service. Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C36766.2DF28720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

This comment will be loosley tied to = the PRR so=20 I'll consider it to be acceptable in our PRR forum.
 
For those of you that don't know the = Middletown=20 and Hummelstown Railroad is a small passenger & freight hauling = railroad=20 located in Middletown, PA.  It has ties to the PRR since it = operates on a=20 branch line that interchanges with the electrified former PRR = trackage=20 near Harrisburg.
 
Within the past few weeks the M&H = has brought=20 back into service a former Canadian National 2-6-0 steam engine that = the=20 railroad will use for passenger service.
 
The M&H fired up # 91 this = past Friday,=20 I presume to get it ready for passenger operations during this = weekend. =20 While I was on their property watching the locomotive shuffle about = the yard=20 the engineer backed the engine up to a cut of approximately 6 or 7 = tank=20 cars.  The engine then proceeded to pull the string of = modern day=20 cars out of the yard and take them to one of the local businesses it=20 serves. 
 
I don't know about many of you but I = was thrilled=20 and amazed to see a steam locomtive, built in the early 1900s = switching modern=20 day tank cars.  If only I had my camera to share the sight with = all of=20 you.  I would assume this happening would be rather rare today as = their=20 aren't many steam locomotives in the US being used for freight revenue = service.
 
Kris
't hOCKQUOTE> ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C36766.2DF28720-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:55:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] All couplers need screw access... --part1_1a6.18f80631.2c758e87_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/6/03 1:24:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > All InterMountain assembled cars come with Kadee #5's installed. > > Or are you putting horn hook couplers on yours? ;-) The Kadee #5 is a fine coupler. Nevertheless, if used on an operating layout, like any of its competitors it requires careful shimming, spring tuning, judicious shank burnishing, and periodic adjustment to work at its best. Glued into a coupler box (even the Kadee #10), the #5 is just another Kadee-compatible coupler. This lesson was learned the hard way on the 800-car, oft-operated Panhandle Route layout I tore down when I moved recently. My advice: SCREW 'EM whenever you can. A $25 (or more) car should have screw access to the coupler pocket, period. My 2 cents... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1a6.18f80631.2c758e87_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/6/03 1:24:06 PM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


All InterMountain assembled car= s come with Kadee #5's installed.

Or are you putting horn hook couplers on yours?  ;-)


The Kadee #5 is a fine coupler.  Nevertheless, if used on an operating=20= layout, like any of its competitors it requires careful shimming, spring tun= ing, judicious shank burnishing, and periodic adjustment to work at its best= .  Glued into a coupler box (even the Kadee #10), the #5 is just anothe= r Kadee-compatible coupler.

This lesson was learned the hard way on the 800-car, oft-operated Panhandle=20= Route layout I tore down when I moved recently.  My advice: SCREW 'EM w= henever you can.  A $25 (or more) car should have screw access to the c= oupler pocket, period.

My 2 cents...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1a6.18f80631.2c758e87_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:55:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Keep your track smooth and conductive, not "clean" --part1_ab.30f3fe9f.2c758e8a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/7/03 1:32:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Track Cleaning > From: "parkvarieties" > Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:37:11 -0400 > > Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping > your track clean? I have started to operate and would like to minimize the > wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas. > Any/all suggestions welcomed. > > Frank Brua Frank, I was on vacation while this discussion blew through -- there were several good approaches offered. There's been a lot more talk about track cleaning since DCC came along - dropouts in conductivity are more obvious when a decoder loses signal, especially if sound-equipped. I've always been analog DC, but my last layout ran for 25 years with 100 diesel units and 800 cars, track rarely cleaned and wheels never cleaned unless a car had derailed. My experience/advice is similar to others, but perhaps slightly different: 1. Model railroad track and equipment is a creator of "dirt". Wheels spark, oil seeps, and plastic and metal parts hold static charges and attract dust right out of the air. All of this (plus oxidation of the rail itself) comes to rest on the railhead. 2. I believe the biggest problem is to keep the rail conducting. Experience tells me this is not the same thing as "clean" or "dry", but instead means an coating on the rail and wheels that promotes conduction across a "low pressure low voltage air gap" (tech definition of model wheel on rail). Many get good results from Wahl clipper oil, but being literal-minded, I've always used an electronic contact cleaner fluid -- until recently, the spray cans of Radio Shack color TV tuner were my standard. 3. Keep the railhead "smooth". If that inside corner of the railhead is scratched (by abrasives) or pitted (by sparking), then contact becomes irregular, and more sparking/pitting/oxidation takes place. This has been lethal to DCC, which puts about 17 volts across the gap all the time and probably sparks much more. Clean your track with something smooth, like a scrap of pine carrying a coat of contact cleaner. As a side benefit, if you're scrubbing paint or crud off the rail, you can tell it's gone when the pine starts sliding easily down the railhead. Slide the pine around the layout until it gets harder to push -- then you can tell when to put more cleaner on. When the pine gets loaded down with filth, rotate to another side and/or throw it in the trash. 4. Keep obvious sources of crud off the track. This includes tobacco smoke (a demonstrated insulator), but also the bits of metal and rubber created when track is "scratched" with Brite Boys/Typewriter erasers. Think -- when you do a crossword, you typically wind up with smudged paper and bits of rubber from your corrections. A Brite Boy litters your track very nicely with rubber frags -- and these are nonconductive. (I caught onto this one when a chemist did analysis of railhead crud and found rubber). 5. It is normally not necessary to clean loco or car wheels. However, when a loco announces its dirty wheels, spinning the wheels over a cleaner-wet cloth or paper towel draped across the rails will polish the crud right off. For diesels, do one end at a time -- the other end does electrical pickup from the track so you don't even have to use alligator clips. Obviously, you'll do this at the workbench or on a part of the layout where track is not scenicked. May you have success with whatever techniques you choose... operating a model railroad is well worth the hassle. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ab.30f3fe9f.2c758e8a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/7/03 1:= 32:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Track Cleaning
From: "parkvarieties" <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:37:11 -0400

Any operating list members care to share with me you secrets for keeping
your track clean?  I have started to operate and would like to minimize= the
wheel cleaning/handling of my diesels with antennas.
Any/all suggestions welcomed.

Frank Brua


Frank,

I was on vacation while this discussion blew through -- there were several g= ood approaches offered.

There's been a lot more talk about track cleaning since DCC came along - dro= pouts in conductivity are more obvious when a decoder loses signal, especial= ly if sound-equipped.  I've always been analog DC, but my last layout r= an for 25 years with 100 diesel units and 800 cars, track rarely cleaned and= wheels never cleaned unless a car had derailed.

My experience/advice is similar to others, but perhaps slightly different:
1. Model railroad track and equipment is a creator of "dirt".  Wheels s= park, oil seeps, and plastic and metal parts hold static charges and attract= dust right out of the air.  All of this (plus oxidation of the rail it= self) comes to rest on the railhead.

2. I believe the biggest problem is to keep the rail conducting.  Exper= ience tells me this is not the same thing as "clean" or "dry", but instead m= eans an coating on the rail and wheels that promotes conduction across a "lo= w pressure low voltage air gap" (tech definition of model wheel on rail).&nb= sp; Many get good results from Wahl clipper oil, but being literal-minded, I= 've always used an electronic contact cleaner fluid -- until recently, the s= pray cans of Radio Shack color TV tuner were my standard.

3.  Keep the railhead "smooth".  If that inside corner of the rail= head is scratched (by abrasives) or pitted (by sparking), then contact becom= es irregular, and more sparking/pitting/oxidation takes place.  This ha= s been lethal to DCC, which puts about 17 volts across the gap all the time=20= and probably sparks much more.  Clean your track with something smooth,= like a scrap of pine carrying a coat of contact cleaner.  As a side be= nefit, if you're scrubbing paint or crud off the rail, you can tell it's gon= e when the pine starts sliding easily down the railhead.  Slide the pin= e around the layout until it gets harder to push -- then you can tell when t= o put more cleaner on.  When the pine gets loaded down with filth, rota= te to another side and/or throw it in the trash.

4.  Keep obvious sources of crud off the track.  This includes tob= acco smoke (a demonstrated insulator), but also the bits of metal and rubber= created when track is "scratched" with Brite Boys/Typewriter erasers. = Think -- when you do a crossword, you typically wind up with smudged paper=20= and bits of rubber from your corrections.  A Brite Boy litters your tra= ck very nicely with rubber frags -- and these are nonconductive.  (I ca= ught onto this one when a chemist did analysis of railhead crud and found ru= bber).

5.  It is normally not necessary to clean loco or car wheels.  How= ever, when a loco announces its dirty wheels, spinning the wheels over a cle= aner-wet cloth or paper towel draped across the rails will polish the crud r= ight off.  For diesels, do one end at a time -- the other end does elec= trical pickup from the track so you don't even have to use alligator clips.&= nbsp; Obviously, you'll do this at the workbench or on a part of the layout=20= where track is not scenicked.

May you have success with whatever techniques you choose... operating a mode= l railroad is well worth the hassle.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_ab.30f3fe9f.2c758e8a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] All couplers need screw access... Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:22:15 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01C3_01C36771.E40B0A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Tipton wrote: This lesson was learned the hard way on the 800-car, oft-operated = Panhandle Route layout I tore down when I moved recently. My advice: = SCREW 'EM whenever you can. A $25 (or more) car should have screw = access to the coupler pocket, period. This is my experience on the NEB&W as well. Another common aggravating = coupler problem is the Athearn clip-on coupler pocket cover, which tends = to cause drawbar failures in long trains. I drill out the center post = to accept a 1-72 screw to make sure this doesn't happen. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_01C3_01C36771.E40B0A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rick Tipton wrote:
This lesson was learned the hard way on the = 800-car,=20 oft-operated Panhandle Route layout I tore down when I moved = recently.  My=20 advice: SCREW 'EM whenever you can.  A $25 (or more) car should = have screw=20 access to the coupler pocket, period.
This is my=20 experience on the NEB&W as well.  Another common aggravating = coupler=20 problem is the Athearn clip-on coupler pocket cover, which tends = to cause=20 drawbar failures in long trains.  I drill out the center post to = accept a=20 1-72 screw to make sure this doesn't happen.
 
 
Ben Hom
 
------=_NextPart_000_01C3_01C36771.E40B0A40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Timetables in 1965 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:37:46 +0000 PRR-Listers: I am doing a presentation as well as a corresponding article on the PRR operations in Warsaw, Indiana for the year 1965. I am looking for both employee and public timetables that were effective during the entire year. I have one public timetable that was effective on July 27, 1965. Does anyone know how many timetables were effective during the calender year of 1965? I would be interested in acquiring copies of these timetables for my research and presentation and article. Thanks in advance!! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] All couplers need screw access... Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:19:28 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0130_01C367B4.8F213C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't even bother to keep the Athearn coupler pockets. On the older = box-type cars, I reverse the weight and the floor (put the floor to the = bottom), locate and attach the flat, flanged piece of the Kadee 5 box, = drill and tap for 2-56, then screw the hollow part of the box on. For = hoppers and covered hoppers, I use a Dremel to mill off all but a flat = mounting area on the Athearn coupler pocket, then attach the parts of = the 5 as above. =20 The Athearn RTR cars are beautifully painted, so much so that I've = sometimes binged on stand-ins. But you have to disassemble them to = correct the coupler issue, a real pain in the neck. The biggest risk from the Athearn clip-oen fvers is that they will fall = off in operation, leaving both the cover and the coupler spring to = royally foul things up and cause a major derailment. This is an issue that separates the sheep from the goats in my mind -- = lots of people say you don't need to replace the Athearn covers, or just = hold them on with Goo, or crimp them with pliers. No such thing. Glad = to hear good sense on this issue. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Benjamin Frank Hom=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] All couplers need screw access... Rick Tipton wrote: This lesson was learned the hard way on the 800-car, oft-operated = Panhandle Route layout I tore down when I moved recently. My advice: = SCREW 'EM whenever you can. A $25 (or more) car should have screw = access to the coupler pocket, period. This is my experience on the NEB&W as well. Another common = aggravating coupler problem is the Athearn clip-on coupler pocket cover, = which tends to cause drawbar failures in long trains. I drill out the = center post to accept a 1-72 screw to make sure this doesn't happen. =20 =20 Ben Hom =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0130_01C367B4.8F213C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't even bother to keep the Athearn coupler = pockets. =20 On the older box-type cars, I reverse the weight and the floor (put the = floor to=20 the bottom), locate and attach the flat, flanged piece of the Kadee 5 = box, drill=20 and tap for 2-56, then screw the hollow part of the box on.  For = hoppers=20 and covered hoppers, I use a Dremel to mill off all but a flat = mounting=20 area on the Athearn coupler pocket, then attach the parts of the 5 as=20 above. 
 
The Athearn RTR cars are beautifully painted, so = much so that=20 I've sometimes binged on stand-ins.  But you have to disassemble = them to=20 correct the coupler issue, a real pain in the neck.
 
The biggest risk from the Athearn clip-on covers is = that they=20 will fall off in operation, leaving both the cover and the coupler = spring to=20 royally foul things up and cause a major derailment.
 
This is an issue that separates the sheep from the = goats in my=20 mind -- lots of people say you don't need to replace the Athearn covers, = or just=20 hold them on with Goo, or crimp them with pliers.  No such = thing. =20 Glad to hear good sense on this issue.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Benjamin=20 Frank Hom
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, = 2003 8:22=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] All couplers = need=20 screw access...

Rick Tipton wrote:
This lesson was learned the hard way on the = 800-car,=20 oft-operated Panhandle Route layout I tore down when I moved = recently. =20 My advice: SCREW 'EM whenever you can.  A $25 (or more) car = should have=20 screw access to the coupler pocket, period.
This is my=20 experience on the NEB&W as well.  Another common aggravating = coupler=20 problem is the Athearn clip-on coupler pocket cover, which tends = to cause=20 drawbar failures in long trains.  I drill out the center post to = accept a=20 1-72 screw to make sure this doesn't happen.
 
 
Ben Hom
 
------=_NextPart_000_0130_01C367B4.8F213C00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Timetables in 1965 - Clarification Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:56:05 +0000 My presentation will be next year's PRRT&HS Convention in Cincinnati. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Business Entities From: Jerry Britton Listers... In south Harrisburg, as you come into the city on Second Street, there is a Pinnacle Health building on the right side, just before you go under the Lurgan Line overpass. Years ago, this was the "Gables" warehouse. I think they were a distributor of some type. Pinnacle really did a makeover of the building, and I don't have any photos of the old facade. My memory tells me that a new "American Hardware Supply" building offering from Walthers may make a good stand in on my layout. If you would, please take a look and compare to your memory... http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3253 I don't know what business occupied this building before Gables. The CT1000E for 1945 lists the following entities with rail service at this area, just east of the REA/PRR freight station (MP 103.5): MP 103.5 J.I. Case Co. Kingan Provision Co. Kinney Shoe Co. Paxton Flour & Feed Co. and Harrisburg Storage Co. Carload Delivery For reference, the next grouping east is: MP 103.4 V.D. Leisure MP 103.3 Air Reduction Co. R. Herschel Mfg. Co. Bell Telephone Co. No. 2 I'm wondering if the Herschel Mfg. Co. was on the site occupied by Pennsy Supply today. If anyone can provide more info or photo references on any of the above it would be appreciated. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:40:06 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] RE: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE G41, G41A, GP67 Hello All: We at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com are working on our next NEW project, the G41, G41a and the GP67 (NS) Coil Cars for PRR, PC, CR and NS while we are building our N5c. The Coil Cars will follow the N5c in production; the reason why we are jumping them ahead is because we have almost all the data we require for this project. See our Web Site for basic information on this project, which we will be updating again very soon. BTW - We are asking you guys for photos of them to define details, any help from you would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your support, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:53:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws --part1_12a.300fc8e3.2c767d41_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem with the Athearn coupler pockets can be solved by scrapping or= =20 filing off the mold ridge on the side of the pocket. This ridge usually kee= ps=20 the metal cover from fully fitting over the tab on the sides of the pocket.=20= =20 The tabs themselves can stand to have the front and back edges filed down=20 slightly so they fit fully through the hole in the pocket. Then make sure t= he=20 cover is shaped correctly so that the holes fit properly over the tabs. On o= ne=20 side of the cover there is a flare while the other side is flat. Make sure=20= the=20 flat side is at a 90=B0 angle with the back (area with the round hole) of th= e=20 cover the bend the flared side in slightly. Make sure the top of the tab is= a=20 nice, clean 90=B0angle for the cover plate to catch on. If it is not the ge= ntly=20 file to this angle; do not file down on the tab but in towards the side of=20 the pocket. This will cause the cover to snap on over the tabs providing a v= ery=20 secure fit that will not come loose. Other than the occasional unusable pocket due to misformed side tabs or a=20 metal cover that wasn't stamped squarely, this method works very well. I run= a=20 ninety car stone train (limestone for Bethlehem Steel) on our clubs modular=20 layout during shows and do not have any problems with the coupler pockets=20 falling apart. All but a half dozen of the cars are Athearn twin bay hopper= s and=20 the loads are actual crushed stone, very heavy train. While this sounds like a lot of work it is not and goes very quickly once=20 you have done one car. Much less work then modifying for a different couple= r=20 pocket. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_12a.300fc8e3.2c767d41_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   The problem with the Athearn coupler pockets ca= n be solved by scrapping or filing off the mold ridge on the side of the poc= ket.  This ridge usually keeps the metal cover from fully fitting over=20= the tab on the sides of the pocket.  The tabs themselves can stand to h= ave the front and back edges filed down slightly so they fit fully through t= he hole in the pocket.  Then make sure the cover is shaped correctly so= that the holes fit properly over the tabs. On one side of the cover there i= s a flare while the other side is flat.  Make sure the flat side is at=20= a 90=B0 angle with the back (area with the round hole) of the cover the bend= the flared side in slightly.  Make sure the top of the tab is a nice,=20= clean 90=B0angle for the cover plate to catch on.  If it is not the gen= tly file to this angle;  do not file down on the tab but in towards the= side of the pocket. This will cause the cover to snap on over the tabs prov= iding a very secure fit that will not come loose.

  Other than the occasional unusable pocket due to misformed side tabs=20= or a metal cover that wasn't stamped squarely, this method works very well.=20= I run a ninety car stone train (limestone for Bethlehem Steel) on our clubs=20= modular layout during shows and do not have any problems with the coupler po= ckets falling apart.  All but a half dozen of the cars are Athearn twin= bay hoppers and the loads are actual crushed stone, very heavy train.

  While this sounds like a lot of work it is not and goes very quickly=20= once you have done one car.  Much less work then modifying for a differ= ent coupler pocket.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_12a.300fc8e3.2c767d41_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:55:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE G41, G41A, From: Jerry Britton And what about the Z74 business cars that were announced three-plus years ago that are constantly being bumped by "one new hot project"? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE G41, G41A, Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:15:23 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: And what about the Z74 business cars that were announced three-plus years ago that are constantly being bumped by "one new hot project"? Bruce Smith and I just want our Class X30 boxcars! ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:18:31 +0000 Evan Leisey wrote: The problem with the Athearn coupler pockets can be solved by scrapping or filing off the mold ridge on the side of the pocket. This ridge usually keeps the metal cover from fully fitting over the tab on the sides of the pocket. The tabs themselves can stand to have the front and back edges filed down slightly so they fit fully through the hole in the pocket. Then make sure the cover is shaped correctly so that the holes fit properly over the tabs. On one side of the cover there is a flare while the other side is flat. Make sure the flat side is at a 90° angle with the back (area with the round hole) of the cover the bend the flared side in slightly. Make sure the top of the tab is a nice, clean 90°angle for the cover plate to catch on. If it is not the gently file to this angle; do not file down on the tab but in towards the side of the pocket. This will cause the cover to snap on over the tabs providing a very secure fit that will not come loose. That solves the problem, but this is easier than drilling and tapping a 1-72 hole and using a screw? ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Hey Eddy!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:26:06 +0000 How about Lines West signal bridges. I need some! Thanks for your products and services. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (Modeling the Pennsy Fort Wayne Line in northern Indiana) _________________________________________________________________ Chat privately with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow Wow, or Mary J Blige using MSN Messenger! http://www5.msnmessenger-download.com/imastar/default.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE G41, G41A, Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:43:40 -0500 Guys, I'm waiting for ordering info on the X30 also. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:50:50 +0000 Another potential problem to check for before installing regards the sheet metal weight. Athearn shears these and they sometimes get a twist or end to end bend that can force the coupler pockets down. Check the wwight on a flat surface for flatness or glue it inside the car. Not a problem on the hoppers and tanks but I have found very few box cars that didn't need the weight corrected. Norm Bell > Evan Leisey wrote: > The problem with the Athearn coupler pockets can be solved by scrapping or > filing off the mold ridge on the side of the pocket. This ridge usually > keeps the metal cover from fully fitting over the tab on the sides of the > pocket. The tabs themselves can stand to have the front and back edges filed > down slightly so they fit fully through the hole in the pocket. Then make > sure the cover is shaped correctly so that the holes fit properly over the > tabs. On one side of the cover there is a flare while the other side is > flat. Make sure the flat side is at a 90° angle with the back (area with the > round hole) of the cover the bend the flared side in slightly. Make sure the > top of the tab is a nice, clean 90°angle for the cover plate to catch on. If > it is not the gently file to this angle; do not file down on the tab but in > towards the side of the pocket. This will cause the cover to snap on over the > tabs providing a very secure fit that will not come loose. > > That solves the problem, but this is easier than drilling and tapping a 1-72 > hole and using a screw? ;-) > > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] CT1000E Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:55:47 +0000 I just downloaded the 5/1/1945 version from Keystone Crossings that clearly states on the inside cover "Taking effect with trains leaving Starting Point at or after 12:01 AM, May 1, 1945". The next line is the one I find interesting, "Superseding Issue of November 1, 1923". Am I to assume that this thing was only updated for the first time in 1945 after 22 years or were there interim addititions and subtractions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:05:52 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE G41, G41A, Hello Ben; We have the whole X30 data package ready to go, however reservations are a bit lean so far, however we feel it will live. We are looking for a HO Scale Fire Truck to package with the X30, being that's what it carried most of the time. Problem is we WANT a American La France model, because that's where the X30 spent most of it's time and we feel it would be great to have the end doors opening and see a fire truck. The Z74's are not doing well at all, reservations are NOT sufficient to do the project. We are going to let it hang out a while longer, if it doesn't pick up; we will rethink and restructure that project, if at all. It's most unfortunate that some people do not understand the brass model train business. If a project does not attain a level of reservations who in their right mind would invest $60,000+ dollars on a project that isn't 1/3 reserved. Sure we could build it with what we have, however the cost per unit would be insane. We will not do that to our customers. Thank you for your support, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of b.hom@att.net Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 4:15 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE G41, G41A, GP67 COIL CARS Jerry Britton wrote: And what about the Z74 business cars that were announced three-plus years ago that are constantly being bumped by "one new hot project"? Bruce Smith and I just want our Class X30 boxcars! ;-) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:44:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws Gosh, I hope some of this Athearn coupler pocket advice helps. Drooping couplers are an endemic problem. I (perhaps foolishly) built a branch junction which crosses the two-track main line at 90- degree, hand-laid crossings. You don't know shock until a train moving at speed has a low-hanging coupler pin hit the right-angle rail at the crossings. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edward D. Thornton" Subject: [PRR] Lincoln University Station Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:50:09 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C36804.47D6E750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen, Looking for info and pre-1970 photos of the Lincoln = University Station, Chester County, PA. All I have is info on the P&BC = from the PRR Centennial History. Much appreciate any info you can provide. Ed Thornton ------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C36804.47D6E750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen,
       =20     Looking for info and pre-1970 photos of the Lincoln=20 University Station, Chester County, PA.  All I have is info on the = P&BC=20 from the PRR Centennial History.
       =20     Much appreciate any info you can = provide.
       =20             =    =20         Ed Thornton
 
------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C36804.47D6E750-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:52:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Rare Mileage Excursion --part1_165.242796a5.2c769922_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List, The Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS is sponsoring a rare mileage DINNER TRAIN on the ex PRR Morrison Cove Secondary on Sunday, September 14. The train will depart from Canal Basin Park in Hollidaysburg, PA (very close to Holly block station) at 2:45PM and travel the entire length of the branch to Roaring Spring, PA arriving at 4PM. Power will be Everett RR GP 16 and The Chapters ex Lackawanna Commuter Coaches. Passengers will then be bussed to the Roaring Spring Fire hall for a full course Turkey Dinner including dessert. The train will depart Roaring Spring at 5:30PM and arrive back in Hollidaysburg at 6:30PM. Cost of the trip is $25.00 adult and $20.00 Child which includes: Train Ride, shuttle bus to fire hall, dinner, tax and tips! For RESERVATIONS AND INFORMATION CONTACT: BILL MANGIACARNE at 814-943-6784 or Email WAMMP236@aol.com. I would like to thank Jerry for this opportunity to place this add on PRR talk. --part1_165.242796a5.2c769922_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello List,
            &nbs= p; The Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS is sponsoring a rare mileage DINNER TRAIN on the ex PRR Morrison Cove Secondary on Sunday, Sept= ember 14.  The train will depart from Canal Basin Park in Hollidaysburg= , PA (very close to Holly block station) at 2:45PM and travel the entire len= gth of the branch to Roaring Spring, PA arriving at 4PM.  Power will= be Everett RR GP 16 and The Chapters ex Lackawanna Commuter Coaches.&nb= sp; Passengers will then be bussed to the Roaring Spring Fire hall for a ful= l course Turkey Dinner including dessert. The train will depart Roaring Spri= ng at 5:30PM and arrive back in Hollidaysburg at 6:30PM. Cost of the trip is= $25.00 adult and $20.00 Child which includes:  Train Ride, shut= tle bus to fire hall, dinner, tax and tips! For RESERVATIONS AND INFORMAT= ION CONTACT: BILL MANGIACARNE at 814-943-6784 or Email  WAMMP236@aol.co= m.  I would like to thank Jerry for this opportunity to place this add=20= on PRR talk. --part1_165.242796a5.2c769922_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:58:18 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000E --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I just downloaded the 5/1/1945 version from Keystone Crossings that > clearly > states on the inside cover "Taking effect with trains leaving > Starting Point > at or after 12:01 AM, May 1, 1945". The next line is the one I > find > interesting, "Superseding Issue of November 1, 1923". Am I to > assume that > this thing was only updated for the first time in 1945 after 22 > years or were > there interim addititions and subtractions? I've seen a 1923 CT1000 which had several new entries made in ball point pen, and a couple crossed out using the same tool. The CT1000 mentions a form CT1001 (I think) which was to be used for reporting new data to whoever kept the CT1000 data. I suppose bulletins were put out, but I've not seen any. Apparently, users of the book were responsible for updating their copies. Note also that the 1923 CT1000 superceded the PL509 (Lines West List of Stations and Sidings) of 1913 (ten year gap). ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000E Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:15:27 -0500 Sorry that this next comment is off PRR. I was not aware that there were any ball point pens prior to WW2. Or were these "I've seen a 1923 CT1000 which had several new entries made in ball point pen, and a couple crossed out using the same tool." notations made before May 1, 1945. Sounds like a timing problem. WW2 wasn't over until after 5/4/45 and something just "don't look right" here. Can anyone help clarify this for me? The main reason I mention this is for historical accuracy. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, 21 August, 2003 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000E > --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > I just downloaded the 5/1/1945 version from Keystone Crossings that > > clearly > > states on the inside cover "Taking effect with trains leaving > > Starting Point > > at or after 12:01 AM, May 1, 1945". The next line is the one I > > find > > interesting, "Superseding Issue of November 1, 1923". Am I to > > assume that > > this thing was only updated for the first time in 1945 after 22 > > years or were > > there interim addititions and subtractions? > > I've seen a 1923 CT1000 which had several new entries made in ball > point pen, and a couple crossed out using the same tool. The CT1000 > mentions a form CT1001 (I think) which was to be used for reporting > new data to whoever kept the CT1000 data. I suppose bulletins were > put out, but I've not seen any. Apparently, users of the book were > responsible for updating their copies. > > Note also that the 1923 CT1000 superceded the PL509 (Lines West List > of Stations and Sidings) of 1913 (ten year gap). > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr6100@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:35:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] builders plates -------------------------------1061505320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several years ago there were replicate plaster builders plates off Pennsy steam engines made by an individual, near Altoona Pa, I believe. Does anyone have any knowledge if these are still available or not. Thanks. -------------------------------1061505320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Several years ago th= ere were replicate plaster builders plates off Pennsy steam engines mad= e by an individual, near Altoona Pa, I believe. Does anyone have any knowled= ge if these are still available or not. Thanks. -------------------------------1061505320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] CT1000E Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:51:46 -0500 Norm, A while back somebody compiled a bibliography of CT1000s, and whatever they were called before and after. A quick search of the archives revealed it was Bob Netzlof, and the date of the 10th revision was 9/24/01. According to his bibliography, there were no revisions between 1923 and 1945. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- I just downloaded the 5/1/1945 version from Keystone Crossings that clearly states on the inside cover "Taking effect with trains leaving Starting Point at or after 12:01 AM, May 1, 1945". The next line is the one I find interesting, "Superseding Issue of November 1, 1923". Am I to assume that this thing was only updated for the first time in 1945 after 22 years or were there interim addititions and subtractions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000E --- Pennsy Nut wrote: > > I was not aware that there were any ball point pens prior to WW2. > > Or were these "I've seen a 1923 CT1000 which had several new > entries made in > ball point pen, and a couple crossed out using the same tool." > notations > made before May 1, 1945. I don't know exactly when the notations were made. That they were in what appeared to be blue ball point suggests they were relatively recent (relative to 1923, that is). The book was in the holdings of a rinky-dink museum which had received the book from one of: a retired PRR railroader his estate found in the station building the museum occupied If I remember my area history correctly the firm whose name appeared in the entries was established after WW2. Perhaps someone had it hidden in his locker for his own use, long after the railroad would have preferred he hand it in? (But if everyone had handed in their obsolete rule books, time tables, etc, where would we be today?) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rwo1361@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:30:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable landmarks --part1_142.17a1ad7f.2c770476_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hagley Museum is building a HO scale Penn Station as it was around circa 1920s It should be done around 2004 The volunteers have been working on it for about 3 years. Should be a great model. --part1_142.17a1ad7f.2c770476_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hagley Museum is building a HO= scale Penn Station as it was around circa 1920s It should be done around 20= 04 The volunteers have been working on it for about 3 years.  Should be= a great model. --part1_142.17a1ad7f.2c770476_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:30:06 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] CK at the North Judson IN museum In a message dated 8/21/03 6:50:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:48:50 EDT > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > Subject: Re: 566091-574090 lettering history > > Rick: > > The car definitely had (has) the Keystone in a circle with Pennyslvania over > > the number (no PRR except on the ends.) > > Les > That is definitely Circle Keystone, as wt, ppplied to these X29's from 1931 to 1954. CK was Pennsy's fifth-out-of-ten lettering phases. It was applied for those 23 years, and further is a direct evolution from the layout of NK4 and the lettering style of NK3, which takes us all the way back to 1906. The Pennsy was methodical and extremely conservative in lettering its equipment. More on standard lettering phases in Brady McGuire's boxcar article (Spring 1988 Keystone) or in my covered hopper article (Spring 2000 Keystone). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:30:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] CK at the North Judson IN museum --part1_61.34277fad.2c7758be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/21/03 6:50:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:48:50 EDT > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > Subject: Re: 566091-574090 lettering history > > Rick: > > The car definitely had (has) the Keystone in a circle with Pennyslvania over > > the number (no PRR except on the ends.) > > Les > That is definitely Circle Keystone, as was applied to these X29's from 1931 to 1954. CK was Pennsy's fifth-out-of-ten lettering phases. It was applied for those 23 years, and further is a direct evolution from the layout of NK4 and the lettering style of NK3, which takes us all the way back to 1906. The Pennsy was methodical and extremely conservative in lettering its equipment. More on standard lettering phases in Brady McGuire's boxcar article (Spring 1988 Keystone) or in my covered hopper article (Spring 2000 Keystone). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_61.34277fad.2c7758be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/21/03 6:50:10 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:48:50 EDT
   From: Midlandblb@cs.com
Subject: Re: 566091-574090 lettering history

Rick:

The car definitely had (has) the Keystone in a circle with Pennyslvania over=
the number (no PRR except on the ends.)

Les


That is definitely Circle Keystone, as was applied to these X29's from 1931=20= to 1954.  CK was Pennsy's fifth-out-of-ten lettering maines.  It w= as applied for those 23 years, and further is a direct evolution from the la= yout of NK4 and the lettering style of NK3, which takes us all the way back=20= to 1906.  The Pennsy was methodical and extremely conservative in lette= ring its equipment.

More on standard lettering phases in Brady McGuire's boxcar article (Spring=20= 1988 Keystone) or in my covered hopper article (Spring 2000 Keystone).

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_61.34277fad.2c7758be_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: [Keystone-E-News] Special Announcement August 22, 2003 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:02:29 +0000 Thanks Al for another great effort with the Keystone-E-News. Your efforts are much appreciated. Norm Bell > > > SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT > AUGUST 22, 2003 > > > > A monthly electronic official newsletter of the PRRT&HS published for > the purpose of disseminating information on current issues and events > pertaining to the Society’s operations and administration. > > Copyright © PRRT&HS – 2003 – All Rights Reserved. May be reproduced for > distribution. > > Not for sale. > > > > > > > > THIRD QUARTER 2003 BOARD MEETING REPORT > > > > Ų GENERAL BUSINESS > > Ų TREASURER’S REPORT > > Ų PUBLICATIONS REPORT > > Ų 2004 MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL NOTICES > > Ų 2004 CANDIDATES FOR BoD ELECTION > > Ų ANNUAL MEETING UPDATE > > Ų PENN-TEXAS AND CHICAGO TERMINAL CHAPTERS APPROVED > > Ų E-STORE ACTIVITIES > > Ų THE KEYSTONE ON CD > > Ų THE KEYSTONE BACK ISSUE AUCTION > > Ų STATION AND ARCHIVES REPORT > > Ų NEW BUSINESS > > > > v EXTRA – AN EVENING WITH DON WOOD IN PITTSBURGH > > > > > > GENERAL BUSINESS > > > > The board met from 9:15 a.m. to 4:38 p.m. on Saturday, August 16, 2003, > with all officers and directors in attendance. The board decided to keep > its current policy of gratis memberships, which is generally limited to > modeling magazines, museums and archives, libraries and a few specific > volunteers. There are currently 3,069 members with 223 non-renewals. The > Society applied to Kalmbach for the Trains annual $10,000 grant for use > in our archiving project, the winners will be announced in January 2004. > The fourth quarter board meeting will be held at Chuck Blardone’s house > on Saturday November 15th. > > > > > > TREASURER’S REPORT > > > > Account balances as of June 31, 2003: > > · General Account - $ 145,390 > > · Publications Account - $ 24,403 > > · Station and Archives Account - $ 164,492 > > > > > > PUBLICATIONS REPORT > > > > · The Keystone > > Everything is on schedule and going well. A decision was made not to run > the EMD F unit article (single theme-special edition) as the winter 2003 > issue. Running the F Unit issue would have given us two special editions > (the other being the summer TAT issue), as well as three single theme > issues (the others being spring class D78 and summer TAT) within the > same year. There are some people that don’t like too many single theme > issues and like the potpourri style. The EMD F unit issue is now likely > to run in the summer of 2004 as the spring edition is planned to focus > on the PRR and Cincinnati in conjunction with the annual meeting. > > > > · The Keystone e-NEWS > > KeN is entering its third year of publication and as of August 15th had > 484 subscribers. Thanks to the membership who support this effort. > > > > · The Keystone Modeler > > TKM is only a month old and enjoys a subscription list of 480. We have > big plans for this effort and hope everyone will like what’s in store. > The September issue, due out on the fifth, starts a series on modeling > PRR gondolas. > > > > > > 2004 MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL NOTICES > > > > Membership renewal notices for the year 2004 will be included in the > autumn edition of The Keystone. Using the magazine as the method of > delivery will save the Society an estimated $1,500. The only possible > downside is people will have to open the magazine to realize it’s there. > Can you imagine some people don’t even open their magazine when it > arrives! The board authorized increasing the overseas mailing from $10 > to $13. > > > > > > 2004 CANDIDATES FOR BoD ELECTION > > > > Long time Director and dedicated member Fred Shaefer has decided to > retire from the Board and not stand for reelection when his term expires > in May 2004. However, we are pleased that Fred will continue to serve > the Society as publisher of The Keystone. The Board selected Charlie > Horan to run for the director’s position that will be vacated by Fred. > Dave Scott, who is filling the unexpired term of Dick Adams, who > resigned this May, will also run with Charlie to fill the position he > currently occupies. Election ballots will be in the Spring 2004 > Keystone. > > > > > > ANNUAL MEETING UPDATE > > > > Rick Bailey, Cincinnati Chairman, reports that planning for the 2004 > (April 29 – May 2) meeting is moving along well. The current plan is to > hold the annual banquet in the Cincinnati Union Terminal’s rotunda. We > already have two beautiful paintings donated by member Vern Simpson for > the raffle, and there’s more art work promised by others. Programs (12 > lined up thus far), three fine alternate tours and 10 PRR layouts (plus > 6 non-PRR but eastern roads); a possible silent auction, plus other > events are shaping up nicely. > > > > Planning has begun for the 2005 meeting to be sponsored by the National > and held at Camp Hill from May 5-8. Programs (already five lined up) > will be put together by Al Buchan. Joe Acri will be the hotel contact > and Frank Kuhn will work on special programs, which if things work out > right could be spectacular. The NC Chapter will run the model layout > tours. However, we need someone to take on registration, the vendor > room, the model room and the spousal program. > > > > The 2006 meeting hosted by the NC Chapter will also be held in Camp Hill > from May 4-7. > > > > The Pittsburgh Chapter has been asked to consider hosting the 2007 > meeting in Pittsburgh and another chapter may possibly host another > meeting west of Pittsburgh again in 2008. > > > > > > PENN-TEXAS AND CHICAGO TERMINAL CHAPTERS APPROVED > > > > Two new official chapters of the Society were approved - the Penn-Texas > Chapter and the Chicago Terminal Chapter. The officers of both chapters > are as follows: > > Penn-Texas: Morgan Bilbo - President, Bill Laird - Vice President, Don > Harper - Secretary and Lynn Zimmerman - Treasurer. Additional > information may be gotten from Morgan Bilbo at: > pennsynut@hotmail.com > > Chicago Terminal: Norman D. Bell - Interim President, Jim Burd - Interim > VP, Ken Kaczar Interim Secretary and Andy Cinch Interim Treasurer. > Additional information may be gotten from Norm Bell at: 708-799-6603 or > at: ndbprr@att.net > > > > > > THE KEYSTONE ON CD > > > > As a result of the overwhelming desires of PRR enthusiasts the board > abandoned its original concept of putting The Keystones online, using a > subscription service, and approved a contract with Abbott Digital Labs > (ADL) to produce all back issues through the winter 2002 edition > inclusive, on CDs and DVDs. Because of file size of the 140 issues to be > converted, the CD format will require its being made on more than one > disk, at least two perhaps three. They will be offered as individual > items as well as a set. The DVD format will be offered on a single disk. > Both versions will also include a fully searchable table of contents and > key word search feature as well as Adobe Reader programs for both > Windows and MAC users. The inclusion of the Adobe programs will enable > those computer users that are not online to use this resource. This item > will only be available through the e-store; it will not be available > directly from the Society or through retail dealers. Arrangements will > be made to allow the use of money orders for those who do not wish to > use their credit/debit cards online. Additional details will be > forthcoming. > > > > > > E-STORE ACTIVITIES > > > > The e-Store has performed well in less than two months, handling 437 > transactions, which included purchases of 305 books, 100 Keystones, 15 > other items, 16 memberships (including renewals), and one donation. > Thanks to dedicated owner-operator, and now Society member Tom Salmon, > start-up problems were minimal. As mentioned above the e-Store will be > the sole source for the new CDs and DVS. Newly found copies of > Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering by Charles > Blardone, Jr. and Peter Tilp (spiral bound and hard cover) will soon be > for sale at the e-Store. The board is also taking into consideration the > offering of golf shirts through the store and may at some point make > special arrangements with some model manufactures to carry a small line > of special PRR scale models. > > > > > > THE KEYSTONE BACK ISSUE AUCTION > > > > The instructions and bid sheet for a silent, mail-in auction of all back > single issues of The Keystone, in stock in Lewistown, will be included > in the winter edition of The Keystone. The auction will be run in the > same manner as the previous auctioning of complete sets earlier this > year. > > > > > > QUARTERLY STATION AND ARCHIVES REPORT > > > > LEWISTOWN STATION > > Shelving has been anchored to the wall of the Archive Storage Room. > Laminated safety glass for the Amtrak waiting room and a illuminated > flag pole has been installed, and the platform lighting has been > repaired. Installation of about 25% of the eave vents and 75% of the > ridge vents has been completed. The flagpole and the safety glass were > donated by the Middle Division Chapter. > > THE ARCHIVING PROJECT > > Two volunteer archiving sessions were held at Lewistown: Monday, May 19 > to Wednesday, May 21 and Saturday, June 14 to Tuesday, June 17. These > sessions were organized and led by team leaders Gene Nowlan, Art > Mulrooney and Gene Stebbins. Additional volunteers participating in the > sessions were Dick Price, Gene Hudson, Pat Mulrooney, Larry Kline, Bob > Johnson, and Ian Fischer. > > Volunteer archiving time expended at the Station since the last Board > meeting was 180 hours, making the cumulative on-site total 2,605 hours. > All of the Mechanical Department file descriptions (representing 21,292 > files) have been entered in a computer for creation of a database. The > next steps will be to put the files representing partial drawers > together, check for accuracy, merge all the files into one large file, > sort into the order wanted for storage in acid free containers, and > begin the final processing to the original records. Once the Archives > are open for use by members and others, we plan to make the final > digital files available. The volunteers completed assembly of the rest > of the shelving units for the current phase of the project. Further work > was done on writing descriptions of individual donations and the > valuation map original tracings. > > As previously reported, significant progress has been made in shelving > installation in the lower archive room as evidenced in the photos below. > All Bob Johnson photographs. > > > > View to Northwest in Lower Archive Room, > > cleared for installation of shelving > > > > > > Unloading pallets of shelving from a rental truck. > > > > > > View to Northwest in Lower Archive Room. > > Note new rolling ladder, the new book truck and examples of > > the acid-free archival storage cartons and boxes. > > > > > > View to Northeast in Lower Archive Room. > > > > NEW BUSINESS > > > > · GG1 – 4909 > > The Henry Ford Museum recently purchased GG1 4909 and has asked member > Bob Watson to assist them as a PRR technical consultant. At Bob’s > request the Society has committed to assist him in any manner that it > can. > > > > · High Speed Commemoration Plaque > > The Society will be taking the lead in working with several railroad > organizations, engineering societies and the State of New Jersey’s > Historic Preservation Office in an effort to memorialize the > accomplishment of speed records set by the DOT Test Cars, the > Metroliners and the UA Turbotrain on the PRR test track in North Jersey. > > > > · Public Relations Manager > > The board has decided to not fill the slot left vacant by the > resignation of Frank Kuhn as at this time, as Frank is still working on > special PR projects directly with the President. > > > > > > > > EXTRA > > AN EVENING WITH DON WOOD IN PITTSBURGH > > > > Frank Kuhn reports that, “An Evening with Don Wood,” hosted by the > Pittsburgh Chapter is shaping up to be a big event. It will be held on > Friday, September 19, 2003, at the Holiday Inn in Monroeville, PA. > Access to the inn is right off Exit 53 of the PA Turnpike on Route US > 22. The show starts at 7:30 p.m. Don will be showing and explaining > large format previously unpublished photos, handling questions and > signing books if you bring them. If you wish to stay over at the inn, > mention the PRRT&HS and you’ll get a room for $59/night. For additional > details contact Pittsburgh Chapter’s Don Coulter at: 412-372-4221 or > donald.coulter3@verizon.net > > > > > > > > SOCIETY SERVICES > > > > See our website www.prrths.com, “National > Society,” “Society Services.” > > > > > > Al Buchan, Editor The Keystone e-NEWS > > Please respond to abbuchan1@comcast.net > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] W & W Passenger Car Kits In O Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:56:32 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3688B.49AFB2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I thought I would pass this link on to the list. The built up car looks very nice. The site also has some nice photos. http://home.comcast.net/~fabrew/ Peter Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3688B.49AFB2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

  I = thought I would pass this link on to the list. The built up car looks very nice. = The site also has some nice photos.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~fabrew= /

 

 

Peter Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3688B.49AFB2A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Through freight through Philadelphia Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:34:35 +0000 I assume that all the through freight from Washington and points south to New York would go straight up the corridor and not by-pass Philadelphia in any way (Like the Port Deposit line to the Atglen to the Trenton Cutoff). Was there any through eastbound freight from points west that would use the Phildelphia mainline through Zoo and up the corridor also? I assume that trenton cutoff derailments and maintenance would result in time sensitive freight being rerouted this way also. Thank you for any input. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:14:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] MP Eagle Paint Scheme From: Jerry Britton With regard to the cars the PRR ran in interchange service with the MP Eagle livery... Above and below the windows are bands that protrude from the car by about an inch and they are about 3" wide and they run the length of the car. These bands are labeled "aluminum" on the Painting & Lettering diagram. Question is, is the word "aluminum" used as a paint color or as an indication of the material? Color photos are lacking. In b/w photos you can't tell. Here's a b/w shot: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/query_eagle/eagle_scheme.jpg The car is basically MP Eagle Blue, with a cream window band. Were these trim pieces made of "aluminum" and painted cream with the window band, or were they painted "aluminum"? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Paint Scheme Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:35:52 -0500 Aluminum paint, definitely. They are so labeled on Pullman painting diagrams and pretty clearly so on the cover shot on the Dubin Pullman Paint and Lettering diagram. 2-1/2inches above and 3-3/4 inches below. Bob Zoeller > With regard to the cars the PRR ran in interchange service with the MP > Eagle livery... > > Above and below the windows are bands that protrude from the car by > about an inch and they are about 3" wide and they run the length of the > car. These bands are labeled "aluminum" on the Painting & Lettering > diagram. Question is, is the word "aluminum" used as a paint color or > as an indication of the material? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Aldrjim@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:46:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Panhandle Div. --part1_3b.3c7d17b6.2c77db39_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently no one knows how many coal trains came off the Cadiz branch in the 1950's. I don't either. However, Railway Age (March 31, 1952) had a very interesting article about the construction of the Georgetown, Ohio, coal washing plant that sheds a little light on the amount of traffic and the division of the traffic between the PRR and NKP. A few quotes: "Servicing this plant means handling about 570 cars per day. The operation includes providing about 120 empty hoppers per day and moving about 150-175 loads of coal (7,500-8,750 tons), plus some coal that is not washed at the plant. The N.K.P. makes up long trains of empties at Brewster, Oho, about 70 miles from Georgetown, and crews in unassigned service "peddle" them down the line all the way to Georgetown, holding those destined for Georgetown and delivering them to the receiving yard. Trains of loaded cars then are taken away, and on the return trip to Brewster crews pick up other loads of coal routed via the N.K.P. from other mines. At present the Pennsylvania brings in its share of empties from Mingo Junction, about 30 miles from Georgetown, as they are needed. The P.R.R. does not bring in any raw coal. Outbound, it takes coal, as billed or routed, in solid trains. At Mingo these trains are split up and cars classified according to destination. Although the plant is not now operating at capacity, when doing so it will put out about 600 cars per day." It was about this time, between early 1952 and early 1953, that a connecting track was built between the Panhandle at Gould siding to the River branch at Mingo yard. This connecting track permitted trains from (to) the west to directly enter (leave) Mingo yard without going through a back-up move. I found it remarkable that this capability did not previously exist. Jim Aldridge --part1_3b.3c7d17b6.2c77db39_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently no one knows how many coal trains came off=20= the Cadiz branch in the 1950's.  I don't either.  However, Rail= way Age (March 31, 1952) had a very interesting article about the constr= uction of the Georgetown, Ohio, coal washing plant that sheds a little light= on the amount of traffic and the division of the traffic between the PRR an= d NKP.  A few quotes:

       "Servicing this plant means handling about 570 cars per day.&nbs= p; The operation  includes providing  about 120 empty hoppers p= er day and moving about 150-175  loads of coal (7,500-8,750  t= ons), plus some coal that is not washed at the plant.

        The N.K.P. makes up long trains o= f empties at Brewster, Oho, about 70 miles from  Georgetown, and cr= ews in unassigned service "peddle" them down the line  all the way to&n= bsp; Georgetown, holding those destined for Georgetown and delivering them=20= to the receiving yard.   Trains of loaded cars then are taken a= way, and on the return trip to Brewster crews pick up  other loads of=20= coal routed via the N.K.P. from other mines.

        At present the Pennsylvania bring= s in its share of empties from Mingo Junction,  about 30 miles  f= rom Georgetown, as they are needed.  The P.R.R. does not bring in any r= aw coal.  Outbound, it  takes coal, as billed or routed, in soli= d trains.  At Mingo these trains are split up and cars  classifi= ed according to destination.

        Although the plant is not now ope= rating at capacity, when doing so it will put out about 600 cars  pe= r day."

It was about this time, betw= een early 1952 and early 1953, that a connecting track was built between the= Panhandle at Gould siding to the River branch at Mingo yard.  This con= necting track permitted trains from (to) the west to directly enter (leave)=20= Mingo yard without going through a back-up move.  I found it remarkable= that this capability did not previously exist.

Jim Aldridge
 --part1_3b.3c7d17b6.2c77db39_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia companies Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:40:24 +0000 need some help identifying what these North Philadelphia based companies made that were switched by the PRR: Joseph H. Collins & Son General Utilities Walter E. Knipe Magee Brothers Wm. J. Alexander & Sons John Hagan co. Smith Bros. (cough drops?) Simpson & Brown Ralph W. Gebron Jacob R. Fox Jr. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP Eagle Paint Scheme Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:00 -0400 Re: These bands are labeled "aluminum" on the Painting & Lettering diagram. Question is, is the word "aluminum" used as a paint color or as an indication of the material? Check out page 94 of the PRRT&HS Psgr. Car Painting and Lettering book - there's a color shot - the bands are aluminum color - nice scheme. Ya say ya don't have the book - stand by it'll be on the e-store in a few days. $40 for spiral or $20 for hard cover (less money account of possible binding defects). Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia companies Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:00:51 -0400 List, Does anybody have a PRR, or PC, or even CR, Philadelphia Switching Tariff??. Such tariff lists all the industries, what switching zones thay are in, whether or not they are open to switching to RDG and B&O and most importantly (to Norm), WHAT BUSINESS THEY ARE IN. Generally it's a one to three word description like Scrap iron dealer, appliance warehouse, cardboard boxes, coal dealer, etc. AFAIK, General Utilities is the holding company for Philadelphia Electric, Penna. Power & Light, etc. Ever hear of Three Mile Island?? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia companies > need some help identifying what these North Philadelphia based companies made > that were switched by the PRR: > > > Joseph H. Collins & Son > General Utilities > Walter E. Knipe > Magee Brothers > Wm. J. Alexander & Sons > John Hagan co. > Smith Bros. (cough drops?) > Simpson & Brown > Ralph W. Gebron > Jacob R. Fox Jr. > > Thanks, Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:08:00 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia companies Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >[snip] > > >AFAIK, General Utilities is the holding company for Philadelphia Electric, >Penna. Power & Light, etc. Ever hear of Three Mile Island?? > > For the record, TMI was owned by Metropolitan Edison, not Philly Electric or PP&L... Then sold to AmeriGen (within the last 5 years). There was (and still is) a coal plant (Brunner Island) about 5 miles south of TMI on the York county (west) side of the Susie-Q river. Jeff (I can see TMI out my back door) Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Weinschenker" Subject: [PRR] W&W RR Car Kits Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:42:18 -0400 Folks- Fred Abrew of Crossroads Models is producing varnish of the Waynesburg & Washington RR. Fred also has posted some vintage W&W RR photos on his website. My new book on the W&W will be going to the printer's in a week or so and will be ready sometime the first week of October. The book will contain about 200 photographs, 180 of which have never been published. Hardbacks are limited edition, numbered and signed, and the book will also be available in a soft cover version. Please contact me offline should you be interested in securing a book. Thanks... JIM Jim Weinschenker 775 Race Street Waynesburg, PA 15370 M2FQ Publications, Accounts Manager http://www.lightirondigest.com/ http://www.narrowtracks.com/wwrr/index.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:41:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Through freight through Philadelphia The following information about freight trains from the west operating through "Zoo" is from a reprint of "General Notice No. 234-B: Scheduled Freight Train Service", effective May 1, 1931: A-P 19 Camden(Pavonia) to Enola P 19 Camdeen(Pavonia) to Enola FW 8 "Man o' War" Chicago(Roby) to Harsimus Cove via Phila./52nd St. Yd. HC 2 Enola to Camden HC 4 SP 6 Enola to Philadelphia(D 15/Penna Produce Yd) SP 4 2nd SP 4 FJ 6 Enola to Frankford Jct. BNY 16 "Guts" Buffalo to Harsimus Cove via Phila./52nd St. Yd. BNY 14 "The Cornucopia" PH 10 "The Greyhound" East St. Louis to Harsimus Cove via Phila./52nd St. Yd. Here are two west-bound trains, consisting of empty cars being returned, that also ran through "Zoo" to Altoona: TRS 27 Frankford Jct. to Altoona TRS 29 Phila./Greenwich to Altoona I have a 1953 Arranged Freight schedule around somewhere... BTW, did you check Mark Bej's website for 1960-era freight schedules? Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia companies Hi Norm, J.H. Collins & Sons: coal General Ultilities: oil burners Knipe: dyeing Magee Brothers: coal Smith Brothers: coal I used both a 1945 CT1000 and a Reading Company-Freight Shippers Guide. The RDG Freight guide has the type of business the company is in. Even though these companies are on the PRR, they are listed in the RDG guides. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] MP Eagle Paint Scheme Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:01:48 +0000 Don Ball's book "Americas Colorful Railroads shows a Mopac Observation on P. 155 and it is definitely Aluminum Paint in my opinion. Exposed aluminum would look like a storm door after a while and this has a definite silver look to it so the aluminum must be suspended in a paint. If I didn't model the PRR I'd have to go wth Mopac. I love that paint scheme. > Re: These bands are labeled "aluminum" on the Painting & Lettering > diagram. Question is, is the word "aluminum" used as a paint color or as > an indication of the material? > > Check out page 94 of the PRRT&HS Psgr. Car Painting and Lettering book > - there's a color shot - the bands are aluminum color - nice scheme. > > Ya say ya don't have the book - stand by it'll be on the e-store in a > few days. $40 for spiral or $20 for hard cover (less money account of > possible binding defects). > > Al > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP Eagle Paint Scheme Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:33:38 -0400 Re: it is definitely Aluminum Paint in my opinion. Exposed aluminum would look like a storm door after a while and this has a definite silver look to it so the aluminum must be suspended in a paint. I agree w/ Norm's assessment. One way to apply this and get a very uniform color is use silver decal strips. I've found painted silver and aluminum can give a somewhat non-uniform appearance, but the silver and aluminum decal strips are very uniform in intensity and color. Using decals for this purpose also saves a lot of masking time involved with painting. Note that the stripe also goes through the door area even though the raised belt rails above and below the window do not. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Penn Station Videos Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:33:00 -0400 Does anyone know whether the Trains Unlimited videos are available somewhere, specifically the one on Penn Station? Are there other videos on Penn Station? Seems to me there was a series on great railroad stations. If so, it must have covered Penn Station.?? TIA. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Penn Station Video Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:54:54 -0400 Would Greg Stone please contact me? If anyone knows his current e-mail address, would they please send it to me? The one I have bounces. I need to contact him about his presentation for0 t Renovo Railroad Rally on Sept. 13. TIA. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Allan Barns" Subject: RE: [PRR] Penn Station Videos Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:51:52 -0400 You can find it on the History Channel Web site--direct link to Trains Unlimited: http://store.aetv.com/html/catalog/bp08.jhtml?pageNav=jump&utitle=Trains+Unl imited ab -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:33 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: johnnytrains@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Penn Station Videos Does anyone know whether the Trains Unlimited videos are available somewhere, specifically the one on Penn Station? Are there other videos on Penn Station? Seems to me there was a series on great railroad stations. If so, it must have covered Penn Station.?? TIA. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Railroad Rally, Sept. 13, 2003 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:54:53 -0400 Renovo Railroad Rally, Sat. Sept. 13, Carmella Dining Room, Hyner PA. It's east of Renovo toward Lock Haven, just west of where the road jogs over the river & railroad. MapQuest shows it clearly All events are at the Carmella Dining Room, as follows: Note: Presenter Greg Stone is a PRRT&HS member and very, very knowledgeable about Renovo. He has a vast and awesome collection of pictures, photographs, and other Renovo railroad stuff. I think we'd be hard pressed to find someone better qualified to present on Renovo. Note that Hyner is only a few miles east of Renovo for those of us who want to visit. Perhaps Greg will serve as our guide (not that there's much left). 10:00 Registration & pay dues (I think it's $5 for a year) 11:00 Greg Stone slide presentation on shops and Renovo area. 12:00 Mock auction to raise money for Renovo Railroad Org, kids, and future projects. Everyone asked to bring a gift wrapped or plain unmarked brown bag. 1:00 Meeting and intro of guest speaker. Subject to be railroad related. 2:00 Dinner Cost is $9.00 Contact and checks to: (I'm sure you can pay at the door, but I'm also sure they'd like to know how many to expect, and we don't want them or the restaurant stuck paying for no-shows). Please have reservations in before Sept 2. Renovo Railroad Organization c/o Helen Erway Pelkey PO Box 522 69 So. Maple Ave. North Bend PA 17760 570/923-2606 For general information on The Renovo Railroad Organization: Jack O'Toole, President 5701/923-0550 posted by: Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Seeking Greg Stone Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:05:26 -0400 Sorry for the re-post here. My first one had the wrong subject line. > Would Greg Stone please contact me? If anyone knows his current e-mail > address, would they please send it to me? The one I have bounces. I need > to contact him about his presentation for the Renovo Railroad Rally on Sept. > 13. TIA. > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Wheel flats on The Duquense Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:38:43 -0400 Gents, As I continue to go through the Graeff slide collection i came upon a photo which intriques me. It was taken at Marysville on July 31, 1970, obviously the Pea Soup time frame. The Duquense is westbound with a usual consist, but also has two loaded Wheel Flatcars on the rear end. Could anybody shed light on why they would add freight to a passenger train. My father thinks that because the train stopped at Altoona, thats the only logical reason they are on the train. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:28:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re Wheel cars on The Duquense --part1_149.1780a16e.2c7a79e5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Your Father was correct. The wheel cars did go to Altoona The wheel cars were unique in that they were in passenger service and they ran at passenger train speed .( at least on the old Middle Division) which at that time was 70MPH. I do not know if they had steam lines, I kinda doubt it though as they were always on the rear. The wheels they carried were for passenger cars which at that time were repaired in Altoona. My Father was a passenger Conductor on the old Middle Division between Altoona and Harrisburg and I often remember riding this train with him when these cars were in the consist. I have no idea as to why the Pennsy ( the Penn Central continued this practice untill passenger car repair was moved to Beech Grove) deemed that wheels need be carried in express passenger service, perhaps someone else on the list could answer that question? Bill --part1_149.1780a16e.2c7a79e5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John,
        Your Father was correct. The whee= l cars did go to Altoona  The wheel cars were unique in that they were=20= in passenger service and they ran at passenger train speed  .( at least= on the old Middle Division) which at that time was 70MPH.  I do not kn= ow if they had steam lines, I kinda doubt it though as they were always on t= he rear.  The wheels they carried were for passenger cars which at that= time were repaired in Altoona. My Father was a passenger Conductor on the o= ld Middle Division between Altoona and Harrisburg and I often remember ridin= g this train with him when these cars were in the consist. I have no idea as= to why the Pennsy ( the Penn Central continued this practice untill passeng= er car repair was moved to Beech Grove) deemed that wheels need be carried i= n express passenger service,  perhaps someone else on the list could an= swer that question?
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            Bill<= /FONT> --part1_149.1780a16e.2c7a79e5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:45:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C36A5F.301A1940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The posts on how or who would be the best way to have PRRT&HS continue = on and to hopefully grow have been very interesting. I know these were = awhile back but this is obviously an ongoing issue. As someone who is 51 = I guess I fit into the middle category age wise. I am old enough to = remember the Pennsy. But having been brought up on long Island my = familiarity with railroads was with the LIRR and the paint scheme that I = remember was the orange and gray of the late 50's and 60's not the = tuscan of earlier times. So why the love of the PRR . I am told by my = father that my love was kindled when dad took me to visit a fellow LIRR = employees O gauge layout and running on it was a Lionel GG1. So if that = moment could start something that has lasted 45 or so years and = culminated in my becoming a member of the society and this E-mail group = why not use it again. Apparently a model can spark a life long love of = the real thing. The other point I'd like to make is my belief that you = don't have to have a family connection with trains as I did for them = to excite. My present experience with modeling partly involves my = currently being the president of the Delmarva model railroad club. Three = times a year we have an open house with a total of several thousand = people attending over the 3 weekends. Each year several people join the = club many of those are new to model railroading or railroading of any = kind. The age range of these people is from teens through retirees. And = the final point that gives me hope is the excitement on every Childs = face when they enter the layout room of our club. All we have to do is = channel that excitement to the PRR as mine was. For those of you who = belong to model railroad clubs or have operating layouts its easy; make = the layout accessible to the general public and then make the connection = between the layout they are viewing and the real thing. If you don't = have that avenue available maybe your church might be looking for new = activity or fundraiser for the church members to get involved in. Start = a church based model club or have a swap meet or show in the rec hall. = Make sure you have at least a 4X8 or some modules with something Pennsy = running on it. Next time you go to a rail event invite a neighbor, = friend or relative to come a long. And finally consider getting involved = in your local history group. Here in Delmar they put together a small = rail museum with a cabin car highball signal and some other artifacts. = In Mineola where I'm from and my father still lives the local historical = society wrote a sizeable article in their publication on the LIRR in the = town. Well I hope I've helped. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C36A5F.301A1940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The posts on how or who would be the best way to have = PRRT&HS=20 continue on and to hopefully grow have been very interesting. I know = these were=20 awhile back but this is obviously an ongoing issue. As someone who is 51 = I guess=20 I fit into the middle category age wise. I am old enough to remember the = Pennsy.=20 But having been brought up on long Island my familiarity with railroads = was with=20 the LIRR and the paint scheme that I remember was the orange and gray of = the=20 late 50's and 60's not the tuscan of earlier times. So why the love of = the PRR .=20 I am told by my father that my love was kindled when dad took me to = visit a=20 fellow LIRR employees O gauge layout and  running on it was a = Lionel=20 GG1. So if that moment could start something that has lasted 45 or so = years and=20 culminated in my becoming a member of the society and this E-mail group = why not=20 use it again. Apparently a model can spark a life long love of the real = thing.=20 The other point I'd like to make is my belief that you don't  have = to have=20 a  family connection with trains as I did  for them to excite. = My=20 present experience with modeling partly involves my currently being the=20 president of the Delmarva model railroad club. Three times a year we = have an=20 open house with a total of several thousand people attending over the 3=20 weekends. Each year several people join the club many of those are new = to model=20 railroading or railroading of any kind. The age range of = these  people=20 is from teens through retirees. And the final  point that gives me = hope is=20 the excitement on every Childs face when they enter the layout room of = our club.=20 All we have to do is channel that excitement to the PRR as = mine  was.=20 For those of you who belong to model railroad clubs or have operating = layouts=20 its easy; make the layout accessible to the general public and then make = the=20 connection between the layout they are viewing and the real thing. If = you don't=20 have that avenue available maybe your church might be looking for  = new=20 activity or fundraiser for the church members to get involved in.  = Start a=20 church based model club or have a swap meet or show in the rec hall. = Make sure=20 you have at least a 4X8 or some modules  with something Pennsy = running on=20 it. Next time you go to a rail event invite a neighbor, friend or = relative to=20 come a long. And finally consider getting involved in your local history = group.=20 Here in Delmar they put together a small rail museum with a cabin car = highball=20 signal and some other artifacts. In Mineola where I'm from and my father = still=20 lives the local historical society wrote a sizeable article in their = publication=20 on the LIRR in the town.   Well I hope I've=20 helped.
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C36A5F.301A1940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Wheel cars on The Duquense There are a couple of PRR and Penn Central video tapes that shows flat cars with wheel sets on the rear of various passenger trains. It's impossible to get a car number because of the speed but I wonder if these flat cars were modified for high speed service? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Wheel cars on The Duquense Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:10:29 -0400 Re: flat cars with wheel sets on the rear of various passenger trains. Check out page 40 of PRR CG 1, for a photo of a class F45B wheel car (491395). This, as the caption claims is one of 24 cars built from class B60B baggage cars. With a passenger car configuration (steam and communicating line in addition to airbrakes) its use in passenger service would have been possible. However, it is highly unlikely that the FGRA class wheel cars would have been some equipped for passenger service. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-2 Diesel details Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:26:16 -0400 Mark, I can answer question 3 for you. The box connected to the cable attached to the truck journal is the speed recording cable. It was used for th obvious. If you know where to look it can be apotted on most engines. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:20:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Wheel cars on The Duquense --part1_1d1.fb64c59.2c7acc72_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/24/2003 4:34:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, WAMMP236@aol.com writes: > The wheels they carried were for passenger cars which at that time were > repaired in Altoona. My Father was a passenger Conductor on the old Middle > Division between Altoona and Harrisburg and I often remember riding this train > with him when these cars were in the consist. I have no idea as to why the > Pennsy ( the Penn Central continued this practice untill passenger car repair was > moved to Beech Grove) deemed that wheels need be carried in express passenger > service, perhaps someone else on the list could answer that question? > Just a conjecture here, but by putting the wheel cars on a passenger train, the wheels would be delivered to a coach yard, not a freight yard. For example, passenger car wheels would be sent to Sunnyside for use, rather than be "lost" in one of the freight yards in New Jersey. Likewise with Union Station in Chicago, where the coach yards were not a destination for freight trains. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1d1.fb64c59.2c7acc72_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/24/2= 003 4:34:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, WAMMP236@aol.com writes:


The wheels they carried wer= e for passenger cars which at that time were repaired in Altoona. My Father=20= was a passenger Conductor on the old Middle Division between Altoona and Har= risburg and I often remember riding this train with him when these cars were= in the consist. I have no idea as to why the Pennsy ( the Penn Central cont= inued this practice untill passenger car repair was moved to Beech Grove) de= emed that wheels need be carried in express passenger service,  perhaps= someone else on the list could answer that question?


Just a conjecture here, but by putting the wheel cars on a passenger tra= in, the
wheels would be delivered to a coach yard, not a freight yard. For examp= le,
passenger car wheels would be sent to Sunnyside for use, rather than be
"lost" in one of the freight yards in New Jersey. Likewise with Union St= ation
in Chicago, where the coach yards were not a destination for freight tra= ins.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1d1.fb64c59.2c7acc72_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-2 Diesel details Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:55:00 -0400 Mark, 1) Both conduits turned downward after the rear support and then were supported by an outrigger-type arrangement off the back of the rear stanchion. The engineer side conduit turned 90 degrees and entered the rear sheet just below the roof. The fireman side conduit did as well, but just below where it entered it exited again and ran downward along the side to the diaphragm structure. Can't see clearly below there - but on the FA-1 it was supported by 3 of the body mounted conduit supports - one each near the top, middle and bottom of the of the diaphragm structure. This would be my GUESS as to what was on the late FA-2's without finding further photos. 2) The early 1951 order used the Nathan M-3, the later units had the Leslie S3-J Super-typhon horn. 3) The box on the engineer-side axle #2 (rear of front truck) was the Speed Control Ge 5 nor. What model parts to use? Learn to whittle, I think. The device on the end of the Fireman's side axle was the Speed recorder drive unit. 4) As to the mu hose arrangement, my understanding is that for full mu functionality, you needed to connect the outside hose on each side plus one each of the other 3 inboard - they were redendant on both sides of the coupler so it didn't matter which one you used (as long as it lined up with the mating hose on the unit coupled to it!) So they typical arrangement appeared to be all four on one side plus the outside hose on the other side. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Taylor To: Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:18 PM Subject: [PRR] FA-2 Diesel details > Hello list; I am one of the "silent lurkers" that is a member of this list > . While I don't have much to offer to the list (history or happenings), I do > enjoy reading everyones thoughts and dealings pertaining to the Pennsylvania > railroad. > My question pertains to the Alco FA-2,second delivery date 11/51. I am > starting an A-B-A set of undecorated Proto 2000 (first run) FA-2's. I have > gone through all of my Pennsy diesel books for the right details to add to > these models. While the pictures in the books answered alot of questions I > still have four questions with no answers. > > Question 1; The antenna system. I have the correct antenna post spacing,and > location of the conduit down side of 03 8 nose. What I need is the > configuration of the conduit going down the rear of the locomotive. > > Question 2; The horn. It seems that the FA-2's delivered 11/51 ( with the > redesigned battery box louvers) had a different style of horn than the > first group. My best guess is the first group was delivered with a Nathan 3 > chime horn. The 2nd groups horn looks to me to be the Leslie RSL-3L horn. > Am I correct to assume this. > > Question 3; Front truck detail. The rear axle on the front truck (engineer > side) has a square box attached to the truck journal with a cable connected > to another part located on loco frame. I have also noticed that the FP-7's > had this device. What is it, and how do I model it? > > LASTLY Question 4; MU hoses. On other Proto 2000 cab units the models came > with 4 MU hoses on each side on the rear of the locomotive. Most pictures > that I have seen show 4 on the left side and only one on the right. As I > have no idea what all of these hoses would be used for I am at a loss on how > to model this. > > Any information is greatly appreciated as I know this is alot to ask. On > another note my family and I (wife, children,and parents) will be attending > our first Railfest this year and was wondereing what to expect. My moms dad > was an engineer on the Pennsy( out of Columbus) and retired in 1957 after 40 > years of service. To say the least we are really looking forward to this > weekend. Thanks for letting me bend your ear . MARK TAYLOR > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Wheel cars on The Duquense Thanks Al..... That would make an interesting kitbash. I guess there was no place in Sunnyside or North New Jersey to repair wheels? That seems a bit strange to me but who knows. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:57 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C36A9D.14331E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree completely with 2 of your points 1. that it was and is a tragic = mistake to allow significant and even lesser buildings go under the = bulldozers blade. I unfortunately traveled pretty regularly into = Manhattan back in the 60's and had to witness first hand the = dismantling of the station. On one of those lesser notes, here in = Delmar " the town too big for one state" [ it straddles the borders of = MD and DE ] the town had the opportunity to buy the local station and = roundhouse for $1.00 ea. They didn't. Years later they decided to = celebrate their rail heritage and create a museum. It sure would have = been nice to have those buildings but by that time they were dust. 2. = Something that we have to remember is that as long as we elect people = who don't give a darn about railroads and don't believe a national rail = passenger system then we will continue to see Amtrak starved for funds = and maybe squeezed out of existence altogether. Thanks for listening to = my rant Bill Pokorny ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Bigler=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:45 PM Subject: [PRR] The Destruction of Penn Station (& other notable = landmarks & historical structures) The very unfortunate bottom line is that not everyone is nostalgic = about historic structures, even one so grand as Penn Station. Often these = are the same people who are making the business decisions that result in their demolition. The bottom line is that companies have to do what is = necessary to cut losses or eventually go out of business. Real estate in NYC is = very valuable, especially in the '60's when PRR was hemmoraging from all arteries, especially the passenger service artery. Air rights for the = space above Penn Station, not to mention the land itself, must have been = worth a huge amount. I'm sure those who wanted to save it were overruled by a management quorum, if not stockholders too. I regularly lament structures in my area alone that have been razed = over the years, both railroad and otherwise. Where do we draw the line between histrical preservation, sentimentality, and progress? If saved, who = will foot the bill to take care and keep up many of these structures. I = wish it were an easy decision. Demolition of Penn Station, however, was a monumental mistake. That's = one that should have been preserved, and at the very least a LOT more = pictures and film taken of it before it's destruction. Ah well, since life has = no rewind button, we can only learn (hopefully) from past mistakes and = move ahead. Along these same lines (dumb moves to save a buck that cost later), = how about all the track and infrastructure the railroads tore out over the = last few decades and are now putting back? Three tracks from Altoona to Gallitzin may work much of the time, but that assumes you don't have = to close one during a peak season for maintenance! We're watching Congress right now slowly permit long distance = passenger service to die in this country due to short sightedness an inaction. = The same approach got us our terribly obsolete electical power grid = distribution system. Don't get me going - I'm starting to get wound up! Better get a = frosty cold one and watch that Trains Unlimited video on Penn Station again. Just one SPF's opinion. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C36A9D.14331E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree completely with 2 of your points  1. that it was and = is a=20 tragic mistake to allow significant and even lesser buildings go under = the=20 bulldozers blade. I unfortunately traveled pretty regularly into = Manhattan back=20 in the  60's and had to witness first hand the dismantling of = the=20 station. On one of those  lesser notes, here in Delmar " the = town too=20 big for one state" [ it straddles the borders of MD and DE ] the town = had the=20 opportunity to buy the local station and roundhouse for $1.00 = ea. They=20 didn't. Years later they decided to celebrate their rail heritage and = create a=20 museum. It sure would have been nice to have those buildings but by that = time=20 they were dust. 2. Something that we have to remember is that as long as = we=20 elect people who don't give a darn about railroads and don't believe a = national=20 rail passenger system then we will continue to see Amtrak starved = for funds=20 and maybe squeezed out of existence altogether. Thanks for = listening to my=20 rant Bill Pokorny
----- Original Message -----
From: William Bigler
To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, = 2003 12:45=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] The Destruction = of Penn=20 Station (& other notable landmarks & historical = structures)

The very unfortunate bottom line is that not everyone = is=20 nostalgic about
historic structures, even one so grand as Penn=20 Station.  Often these are the
same people who are making the = business=20 decisions that result in their
demolition.  The bottom line is = that=20 companies have to do what is necessary
to cut losses or eventually = go out=20 of business.  Real estate in NYC is very
valuable, especially = in the=20 '60's when PRR was hemmoraging from all
arteries, especially the = passenger=20 service artery.  Air rights for the space
above Penn Station, = not to=20 mention the land itself, must have been worth a
huge amount.  = I'm sure=20 those who wanted to save it were overruled by a
management quorum, = if not=20 stockholders too.

I regularly lament structures in my area = alone that=20 have been razed over the
years, both railroad and otherwise.  = Where do=20 we draw the line between
histrical preservation, sentimentality, = and=20 progress?  If saved, who will
foot the bill to take care and = keep up=20 many of these structures.  I wish it
were an easy=20 decision.

Demolition of Penn Station, however, was a monumental = mistake.  That's one
that should have been preserved, and at = the very=20 least a LOT more pictures
and film taken of it before it's=20 destruction.  Ah well, since life has no
rewind button, we can = only=20 learn (hopefully) from past mistakes and move
ahead.

Along = these=20 same lines (dumb moves to save a buck that cost later), how
about = all the=20 track and infrastructure the railroads tore out over the last
few = decades=20 and are now putting back?  Three tracks from Altoona = to
Gallitzin may=20 work much of the time, but that assumes you don't have to
close one = during=20 a peak season for maintenance!

We're watching Congress right = now slowly=20 permit long distance passenger
service to die in this country due = to short=20 sightedness an inaction.  The
same approach got us our = terribly=20 obsolete electical power grid distribution
system.

Don't get = me=20 going - I'm starting to get wound up!  Better get a frosty = cold
one=20 and watch that Trains Unlimited video on Penn Station = again.

Just one=20 SPF's opinion.

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport=20 = WWII


---------------------------------------------------------= --------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C36A9D.14331E50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:50:16 -0400 Hi Guys, When I first read the question about a wheel service flat on a passenger train, the answer was obvious to me. They were getting the wheels to the destination ASAP. But then again, I cheated a little! (:->) I give you the following: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F45.jpg This baby was set up to FLY! I have the other 2 views as well. Those are probably brake valves in the racks on each end. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Wheel cars on The Duquense Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:28:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C36ADA.7EC8A7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BBReynolds@aol.com=20 Just a conjecture here, but by putting the wheel cars on a passenger = train, the=20 wheels would be delivered to a coach yard, not a freight yard. For = example,=20 passenger car wheels would be sent to Sunnyside for use, rather than = be=20 "lost" in one of the freight yards in New Jersey. Likewise with Union = Station=20 in Chicago, where the coach yards were not a destination for freight = trains.=20 Don't disagree with your reasoning in general, but I wanted to point out = for the record that the leads for the giant Polk St. Freight Station in = Chicago passed through the CUS coach yards. So a wheel car could be = tacked on to an inbound transfer. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C36ADA.7EC8A7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 BBReynolds@aol.com
Just a conjecture here, = but by putting=20 the wheel cars on a passenger train, the
wheels would be delivered = to a=20 coach yard, not a freight yard. For example,
passenger car wheels = would be=20 sent to Sunnyside for use, rather than be
"lost" in one of the = freight=20 yards in New Jersey. Likewise with Union Station
in Chicago, where = the=20 coach yards were not a destination for freight trains.=20
Don't disagree with your reasoning in = general, but I=20 wanted to point out for the record that the leads for the giant Polk St. = Freight=20 Station in Chicago passed through the CUS coach yards. So a wheel car = could be=20 tacked on to an inbound transfer.
 
Bob = Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C36ADA.7EC8A7C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re Wheel cars on The Duquensarinate: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:44:57 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C36AE5.2FA344B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pennsy employed the use of what were probably the only examples of multiple unit GE 44 tonners just to bring the wheels and other company materials down to Union Station Altoona (lighten up, just kidding of course) to meet the various passenger trains. The only other example I can think of was on the Washington and Old Dominion RR. They had a fleet of X-29s for journal bearings, brake shoes and other assorted objects from the reclamation shop located in Holidaysburg just east of the big car shop. They salvaged couplers, draft gears, truck sides, springs, yolks, air reservoirs, handbrake wheels, carrier irons and a host of other items which got stuffed into the grey boxcars and moved via passenger trains far and wide. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Bob Zoeller [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:29 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Wheel cars on The Duquense ----- Original Message ----- From: BBReynolds@aol.com Just a conjecture here, but by putting the wheel cars on a passenger train, the wheels would be delivered to a coach yard, not a freight yard. For example, passenger car wheels would be sent to Sunnyside for use, rather than be "lost" in one of the freight yards in New Jersey. Likewise with Union Station in Chicago, where the coach yards were not a destination for freight trains. Don't disagree with your reasoning in general, but I wanted to point out for the record that the leads for the giant Polk St. Freight Station in Chicago passed through the CUS coach yards. So a wheel car could be tacked on to an inbound transfer. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C36AE5.2FA344B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The=20 Pennsy employed the use of what were probably the only examples of = multiple unit=20 GE 44 tonners just to bring the wheels and other company materials down = to Union=20 Station Altoona (lighten up, just kidding of course)  to meet the = various=20 passenger trains.
 
The=20 only other example I can think of was on the Washington and Old Dominion = RR.
 
They=20 had a fleet of X-29s for journal bearings, brake shoes and other = assorted=20 objects from the reclamation shop located in Holidaysburg just east of = the big=20 car shop.  They salvaged couplers, draft gears, truck sides, = springs,=20 yolks, air reservoirs, handbrake wheels, carrier irons and a host of = other items=20 which got stuffed into the grey boxcars and moved via passenger trains = far and=20 wide.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob = Zoeller=20 [mailto:bobspf@wi.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 = 8:29=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Wheel cars = on The=20 Duquense

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 BBReynolds@aol.com
Just a conjecture = here, but by=20 putting the wheel cars on a passenger train, the
wheels would be = delivered to a coach yard, not a freight yard. For example, =
passenger=20 car wheels would be sent to Sunnyside for use, rather than be =
"lost" in=20 one of the freight yards in New Jersey. Likewise with Union Station =
in=20 Chicago, where the coach yards were not a destination for freight = trains.=20
Don't disagree with your = reasoning in=20 general, but I wanted to point out for the record that the leads for = the giant=20 Polk St. Freight Station in Chicago passed through the CUS coach = yards. So a=20 wheel car could be tacked on to an inbound = transfer.
 
Bob=20 Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C36AE5.2FA344B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Smoke Jacks Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:50:09 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C36AE5.E40D5580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: I don't believe Carl Korn is on the list so I forwarded the T-1 photo at 55th Street for his comments. His comments are reproduced here unabridged. Karl was a Gang Foreman at Terre Haute in the early 1950s and was familiar with the workings of steam locomotives. Since I am not, I will forward his comments unabridged below: Bill- Let me clarify something. I don't recall seeing those smoke eliminators anywhere other than Chicago. Meant to say many Lines West enginehouses had "suction" jacks at the enginehouse pits that conveyed the smoke (or induced the newly set fire) to be pulled into bottom chamber of the smoke stack that also was used for power plant and/or heating purposes. The "USRA" enginehouses I knew were that way. As you know most fire-up draft was induced by a direct connection of a steam source to the front end exhaust ring or by an electric driven fan that was balanced by a counterweight and placed over the loco stack. In theory the coal was to be shoveled in but when enough steam built up you what happened to the stoker operating valve.-Carl ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C36AE5.E40D5580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
All:
 
I don't=20 believe Carl Korn is on the list so I forwarded the T-1 photo at 55th = Street for=20 his comments.
 
His comments=20 are reproduced here unabridged.  Karl was a Gang Foreman at Terre = Haute in=20 the early 1950s and was familiar with the workings of steam = locomotives. =20 Since I am not, I will forward his comments unabridged=20 below:
&nbs= p;
&nbs= p;
Bill-
 
Let=20 me clarify something. I don't recall seeing those smoke
eliminators = anywhere=20 other than Chicago. Meant to say many Lines West
enginehouses had = "suction"=20 jacks at the enginehouse pits that conveyed
the smoke (or induced the = newly=20 set fire) to be pulled into bottom
chamber of the smoke stack that = also was=20 used for power plant and/or
heating purposes. The "USRA" enginehouses = I knew=20 were that way. As you
know most fire-up draft was induced by a direct = connection of a steam
source to the front end exhaust ring or by an = electric=20 driven fan that
was balanced by a counterweight and placed over the = loco=20 stack. In theory
the coal was to be shoveled in but when enough steam = built=20 up you what
happened to the stoker operating=20 valve.-Carl
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C36AE5.E40D5580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: Re: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:09:55 -0700 Anyone have an answer to the following question: If the F45 cars were built from the B60b underframes in the 64/65 time frame, what was the type F-car that line hauled the wheelsets in the 1950's?? Several responders to this list, and others evoke a vague memory of wheel cars in this era. It is generally held that the FGRA would not be up to the 70 mph running speeds; SO--what do we have as the likely candidate? From the wandering mind of a scratch builder. Fred in Vt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:50 AM Subject: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Hi Guys, When I first read the question about a wheel service flat on a passenger train, the answer was obvious to me. They were getting the wheels to the destination ASAP. But then again, I cheated a little! (:->) I give you the following: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F45.jpg This baby was set up to FLY! I have the other 2 views as well. Those are probably brake valves in the racks on each end. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:21:37 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Bill - Can we have the other views as well? - godfrey hall Bill Lane wrote: > Hi Guys, > I give you the following: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F45.jpg > I have the other 2 views as well. > Thanks > Bill > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:50:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] F45 in Wheel service Hi Guys, When I first read the question about a wheel service flat on a passenger train, the answer was obvious to me. They were getting the wheels to the destination ASAP. But then again, I cheated a little! (:->) I give you the following: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F45.jpg This baby was set up to FLY! I have the other 2 views as well. Those are probably brake valves in the racks on each end. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: Godfrey Hall From: Godfrey Hall Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:21:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Bill - Can we have the other views as well? - godfrey hall Bill Lane wrote: > Hi Guys, > I give you the following: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F45.jpg > I have the other 2 views as well. > Thanks > Bill > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:02:43 +0000 Fred Freitas asked: If the F45 cars were built from the B60b underframes in the 64/65 time frame, what was the type F-car that line hauled the wheelsets in the 1950's?? Several responders to this list, and others evoke a vague memory of wheel cars in this era. It is generally held that the FGRA would not be up to the 70 mph running speeds; SO--what do we have as the likely candidate? This following is speculation and needs to be researched further, so bear with me: Maybe the FGRA wouldn't have been up to passenger train speeds, but Class FM and F30A cars might have been converted into wheel cars. We already know that Class F30D cars were converted and used in TrucTrain service in 1954, so the F30A family of cars is a plausible candidate. Besides, if you can make an X29 express car do 70 mph, why not a Class FM flatcar? That Class F45 wheel car just begs to be scratchbuilt... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:04:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Hi Guys, I helped ?? build the F45s, my first summer of employment by the PRR. There were a couple of reasons for the creation of the passenger equipped cars. And yes, the boxes on the car ends contain brake parts. 1) New cars were needed to replace the currently used wheel cars. They were starting to need class repairs. Trucks, body bolsters, draft gear, etc. Not economic to due so. 2) Other wheel shops were being closed and the machine tools (lathes and wheel presses) were being consolidated in Altoona. 3) The same as 2 for the air brake equipment; control valves, brake cylinders, etc. 4) By using passenger service to move the wheels, Altoona could act as the warehouse for wheels and air brakes. Delivery to any shop would be much quicker, than putting a car in a freight train. There might well be other or different reasons for the construction of these cars, but these are the reasons I remember from talking with the shop managers. Garry Spear ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:04:24 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] F45 in Wheel service Hi Guys, I helped ?? build the F45s, my first summer of employment by the PRR. There were a couple of reasons for the creation of the passenger equipped cars. And yes, the boxes on the car ends contain brake parts. 1) New cars were needed to replace the currently used wheel cars. They were starting to need class repairs. Trucks, body bolsters, draft gear, etc. Not economic to due so. 2) Other wheel shops were being closed and the machine tools (lathes and wheel presses) were being consolidated in Altoona. 3) The same as 2 for the air brake equipment; control valves, brake cylinders, etc. 4) By using passenger service to move the wheels, Altoona could act as the warehouse for wheels and air brakes. Delivery to any shop would be much quicker, than putting a car in a freight train. There might well be other or different reasons for the construction of these cars, but these are the reasons I remember from talking with the shop managers. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI G's Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:43:56 +0000 Anything further on the BLI drive problems? Have they been responsive in correcting the problem or parts in question? I haven't seen anything except what was published here about the problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:22:06 +0000 bobsin@nac.net wrote: Gosh, I hope some of this Athearn coupler pocket advice helps. Drooping couplers are an endemic problem. I (perhaps foolishly) built a branch junction which crosses the two-track main line at 90- degree, hand-laid crossings. You don't know shock until a train moving at speed has a low-hanging coupler pin hit the right-angle rail at the crossings. OUCH! I guess the point that everyone needs to take away from this is that despite the reputation of Athearn kits as "shake the box and run," you really need to do some tweaking to get them to operate flawlessly, to wit: - Coupler adjustment: The as-built combination of Athearn trucks and Kadee #5 couplers almost always results in low coupler heights. There's a reason why Kadee's washers have the thicknesses that they do. We've already discussed working around weight imperfections and the spring clip covers. - Weight: Always light compared with the NMRA RP. It's debatble whether or not the recommended weights are too heavy, but it's probably better to err towards them for the new modeler. - Steel axles: Irritating if you use permanent magnet uncoupling ramps, as they tend to get "grabbed." These might seem to be little things that more experienced modelers can easily work around, but they definitely detract from the fun of the hobby for the beginner. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics X30 (was: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:32:41 +0000 Eddy wrote: "We have the whole X30 data package ready to go, however reservations are a bit lean so far, however we feel it will live. We are looking for a HO Scale Fire Truck to package with the X30, being that's what it carried most of the time. Problem is we WANT a American La France model, because that's where the X30 spent most of it's time and we feel it would be great to have the end doors opening and see a fire truck." That would be SO COOL! I'll definitely wait for the model if it comes with an American LaFrance fire truck! (Besides, I'm really not in the mood to hack up four Sunshine Class X28A kits to kitbash this model.) "It's most unfortunate that some people do not understand the brass model train business. If a project does not attain a level of reservations who in their right mind would invest $60,000+ dollars on a project that isn't 1/3 reserved." That could be said about the model train business in general. Most hobbyists just don't understand the size of the investment required to bring them a $16.00 styrene rolling stock kit, let alone brass rolling stock. My apologies if you took my comments the wrong way - I meant them only in jest. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI G's Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:33:46 -0400 Re: Anything further on the BLI drive problems? Have they been responsive in correcting the problem or parts in question? I haven't seen anything except what was published here about the problem. There will be a multi-page review of the GG1 by Bruce Smith and some thoughts on the causes of their problems by Bruce Kohler of Sattler's Hobby shop in the September TKM, due on your screen on Friday, September 5th bright and early - it's a 20+ page issue as we speak. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:36:33 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI G's >Anything further on the BLI drive problems? Have they been responsive in >correcting the problem or parts in question? I haven't seen anything except >what was published here about the problem. I called BLI on Monday, August 11. The UPS guy stopped by to pick up on Tuesday, and I didn't have it ready (thought they were sending a label not authorizing a pickup ) so it went out on Wednesday the 13th. My new #4905 arrived in my hands last Wednesday, the 20th. A careful detective noticed that the plastic wrapper around the tape had been carefully opened and then replaced, leaving me to believe that they had test run it. Sure enough, it runs great. Shameless Plug: I have turned in a complete review of the GG1 to Al Buchan for the September issue of The Keystone Modeler so read all about it there , including a quote from Tony Wenzel of BLI regarding the problems. Frankly, as I say in the review, the nature of the problem seems to indicate that it is an assembly issue and NOT a parts quality issue. Perhaps the most surprising thing I have learned is that no more runs of the current schemes are planned! One number only, no un-numbered units. I am perplexed given that I know they have multiple good numbers for each scheme, and that all of their other products have been run in multiple numbers. One "source" inside BLI indicated that demand for the GG1 had been low but that it was picking up after the release. At the moment, future runs, if any, will most likely consist of post-PRR schemes. Personally, I'll most likely be stripping mine anyway so it won't matter what they paint it! Of course, I would also LOVE to see those pantographs and the electronics available seperately, but I don't believe that will be happening anytime soon. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:44:05 -0700 Actually, if you compare Athearn Ready to Run cars vs the same Blue Box cars from several years ago, the RTR cars do have more weight, normally pretty close to NMRA weight. The weights appear to be thicker and possibly a different metal from the steel ones. Also, in nearly every case I've seen, Athearn RTR cars have METAL wheels and non-ferrous axles now. I think the metal wheels may be some sort of sintering process. Prototype cars that had 33 inch wheels have 33 inch sintered (?) wheels. All cars I've seen that have prototype 36 inch wheels (e.g., the P-S covered hoppers) now have 36 inch wheels, the same as go in current LBF kits. The problem is that the Athearn freight roller bearing truck prototype is a 100 ton truck, so it's correct for cars like the covered hoppers, but it is not correct for cars with 70 ton trucks (e.g., the new cars from ex-Details West dies). For these you want to use Accurail or Atlas trucks (you can keep the Athearn 33 inch wheels and put them in Accurail sideframes). If you have Accurail ACF covered hoppers, you can just swap the Athearn 100 ton roller bearing trucks from cars that should have 70 ton, and put the 70 ton trucks from the Accurail covered hoppers under the Athearn cars that need them. On my layout I have all kinds of equipment from Athearn metal through Ambroid and Quality Craft wood kits, through various resin kits, through new and old plastic (I keep dredging up old unbuilt or partly built McKean kits). The thing that makes them all operable together is (1) Kadee couplers installed on center, height adjusted using the Kadee coupler gauge (2) NMRA weight (3) free-rolling trucks with metal wheels. Atlas cars, to my way of thinking, come closest to being operable out of the box, but I do paint the wheels, trucks, and underframes as applicable, double-check weight, and replace the couplers with Kadees (58 now, 5 in the past). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] All coupler pockets need screws > bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Gosh, I hope some of this Athearn coupler pocket advice helps. > Drooping couplers are an endemic problem. I (perhaps foolishly) > built a branch junction which crosses the two-track main line at 90- > degree, hand-laid crossings. You don't know shock until a train > moving at speed has a low-hanging coupler pin hit the right-angle > rail at the crossings. > > OUCH! I guess the point that everyone needs to take away from this is that > despite the reputation of Athearn kits as "shake the box and run," you really > need to do some tweaking to get them to operate flawlessly, to wit: > > - Coupler adjustment: The as-built combination of Athearn trucks and Kadee #5 > couplers almost always results in low coupler heights. There's a reason why > Kadee's washers have the thicknesses that they do. We've already discussed > working around weight imperfections and the spring clip covers. > > - Weight: Always light compared with the NMRA RP. It's debatble whether or > not the recommended weights are too heavy, but it's probably better to err > towards them for the new modeler. > > - Steel axles: Irritating if you use permanent magnet uncoupling ramps, as > they tend to get "grabbed." > > These might seem to be little things that more experienced modelers can > easily work around, but they definitely detract from the fun of the hobby for > the beginner. > > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:25:44 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] RE: Rail Classics X30 (was: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL Hello Ben: Your statement was NOT viewed to be a negative or insulting comment; however some other individual should "Speak with soft words, for harsh words are hard to swallow" (Confucius) EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 4:33 PM To: brassmodels@railclassics.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Rail Classics X30 (was: A NEW PROJECT FROM RAIL CLASSICS) Eddy wrote: "We have the whole X30 data package ready to go, however reservations are a bit lean so far, however we feel it will live. We are looking for a HO Scale Fire Truck to package with the X30, being that's what it carried most of the time. Problem is we WANT a American La France model, because that's where the X30 spent most of it's time and we feel it would be great to have the end doors opening and see a fire truck." That would be SO COOL! I'll definitely wait for the model if it comes with an American LaFrance fire truck! (Besides, I'm really not in the mood to hack up four Sunshine Class X28A kits to kitbash this model.) "It's most unfortunate that some people do not understand the brass model train business. If a project does not attain a level of reservations who in their right mind would invest $60,000+ dollars on a project that isn't 1/3 reserved." That could be said about the model train business in general. Most hobbyists just don't understand the size of the investment required to bring them a $16.00 styrene rolling stock kit, let alone brass rolling stock. My apologies if you took my comments the wrong way - I meant them only in jest. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:51:47 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request It's been a while since I asked, so I ask again. Any more finds of CT1000's? In particular, there's a gap from 1907 to 1911 which needs filling in. We know there was an edition of 1907, ditto for 1911; but nothing known about 1908, '09, or '10. It would be nice to fill that in, especially since it was issued annually up to 1907, biennially beginning in 1911. Anyone have any light to shed on that? Also, sometime in the range 1896 to 1900 was the change from Form CR76 to Form CT1000. Don't know just when, 'twould be nice to know. Again, any light? Finally, the only 1923 CT1000 I've seen was the big "desk model" covering the whole railroad. Do CT1000E, C, etc editions exist anywhere? I'm particularly curious since, in 1923 there were 4 regions (East., Cent., SW, NW) and I wonder if perhaps there were four "little" CT1000's that year. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:53:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Rail Classics X30 (was: A NEW PROJECT FROM From: Eugene Nowlan Eddy, It seems to me that there not only be lots of pictures of old Am LaFrance fire engines but antique ones still around for parades. What year does your model depict? Also, did the X30 ever visit the Ward LaFrance factory? Gene Nowlan just one of a few on this list within 20 miles of these plants. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Aldrjim@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:19:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request --part1_159.2391a789.2c7bf39d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My CT 1000 for 1923 is a "C.T. 1000 C Central Region." Jim Aldridge --part1_159.2391a789.2c7bf39d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My CT 1000 for 1923 is a "C.T. 1000 C Central Region."=

Jim Aldridge --part1_159.2391a789.2c7bf39d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:37:16 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request Bob, To answer your last question, I have both a 1923 CT1000E & a 1923 CT1000C. Dave At 2:51 PM -0700 8/25/03, robert netzlof wrote: >It's been a while since I asked, so I ask again. > >Any more finds of CT1000's? > >In particular, there's a gap from 1907 to 1911 which needs filling >in. We know there was an edition of 1907, ditto for 1911; but nothing >known about 1908, '09, or '10. It would be nice to fill that in, >especially since it was issued annually up to 1907, biennially >beginning in 1911. Anyone have any light to shed on that? > >Also, sometime in the range 1896 to 1900 was the change from Form >CR76 to Form CT1000. Don't know just when, 'twould be nice to know. >Again, any light? > >Finally, the only 1923 CT1000 I've seen was the big "desk model" >covering the whole railroad. Do CT1000E, C, etc editions exist >anywhere? I'm particularly curious since, in 1923 there were 4 >regions (East., Cent., SW, NW) and I wonder if perhaps there were >four "little" CT1000's that year. > >===== >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:48:34 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request After I had hit send on my previous post, I thought I should have sent along info on a couple of other early CT1000's I have. I might have posted that I had a 1915 CT1000D Northern Division earlier. I also have 1915 & 1918 CT1000A East & West PA Divisions, a 1906 CT1000E stamped PB&W on the cover and a one from 1902 labeled only CT1000, but with NC-P&E stamped on the cover. Dave David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:14:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI G drive problem --part1_77.17a8e495.2c7c004b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, I somehow completely missed this topic. Exactly what is the problem and the fix?? All I have heard about this model is that it runs like a dream, pulls like an ox and the sound is awesome. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_77.17a8e495.2c7c004b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR List,

   I somehow completely missed this topic.  Exactly what is t= he problem and the fix??   All I have heard about this model is th= at it runs like a dream, pulls like an ox and the sound is awesome.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_77.17a8e495.2c7c004b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:18:13 -0500 I have a copy marked CT1000W, dated May 1, 1945, on the outside cover. On the inside cover it states "Superseding Issue of November 1, 1923". Does this infer there was a CT1000W in 1923? Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI G drive problem Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:30:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C36B47.AB05CD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Exactly what is the problem and the fix?? Basically a stripped gear tooth that causes the gears bind and thus to not turn - the fix is send it back from whence it came. Al. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C36B47.AB05CD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Re: Exactly=20 what is the problem and the fix?? 
 
Basically a = stripped gear=20 tooth that causes the gears bind and thus to not turn - the fix is = send it=20 back from whence it came.
 
Al.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C36B47.AB05CD00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:13:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] BLI & GG1 Yes the reason for no more runs is supposed to be the lack of demand before release. If they sell out quick enough they may do another run, but it will probably be after some of the other announced products have run their course. And yes I do have a source. Philip Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:39:18 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request --- "David J. Wartell" wrote: > > To answer your last question, I have both a 1923 CT1000E & a 1923 > CT1000C. > Well, depending on what the full answer is, that's 1/2 or 2/3 of. Any Lines West folk have a CT1000N, CT1000S, or CT1000W? The 1923 CT1000 superceded the 1913 PL509 List of Stations and Sidings (prior to 1923, nothing west of Pittsburg(h) shows in the CT1000's). Maybe Philadelphia printed a CT1000W, giving one to each person who had a PL509 OR maybe they stuck with the regional books as they did east of Pgh and printed CT1000S for the Panhandle and CT1000N for the Ft. Wayne ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:49:10 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request --- Don Millbranth wrote: > I have a copy marked CT1000W, dated May 1, 1945, on the outside > cover. > On the inside cover it states "Superseding Issue of November 1, > 1923". Does > this infer there was a CT1000W in 1923? I think that might be reading a bit too much into it. My impression has been that in setting up a new edition of CT1000, set for each page of "the big book". Then, to prepare the "little books", only certain pages were printed and bound, those pages keeping the page numbers they had in "the big book". Thus I suspect the term "edition of whatever" refers to the complete edition. I could be wrong. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:21:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? --part1_161.24a9e52d.2c7c1e1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Yuze Gize... Am I the only one that sees the GG1 in DGLE as way to green??? And the Buff as way too? What gives, have we lowered our standards? I sure hope the M's T's and J's aren't green like the GG1. I looked at them on the Model Train Stuff website and that is my only comparison to the product... Is it me or are they nearly black in reality? This smells of a comment Charlie Vik made on another list about the color should be green... Boy I hope this is not a sign of things to come as I am hoping we can get the manufacturers to get the DGLE standardize and nearly black. Just an observation. And to think my AHM Rivarossi I bought for 29 bucks in 1972 always looked to green to me by comparison it rates right up there with BLI no sound though. Honest I don't mean to be critical though... 3^) Greg Martin --part1_161.24a9e52d.2c7c1e1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Yuze Gize...

Am I the only one that sees the GG1 in DGLE as way to green??? 5 y the Buff=20= as way too?  What gives, have we lowered our standards?  I sure ho= pe the M's T's and J's aren't green like the GG1.  I looked at them on=20= the Model Train Stuff website and that is my only comparison to the product.= .. Is it me or are they nearly black in reality? This smells of a comment Ch= arlie Vik made on another list about the color should be green... Boy I hope= this is not a sign of things to come as I am hoping we can get the manufact= urers to get the DGLE standardize and nearly black.  Just an observatio= n. And to think my AHM Rivarossi I bought for 29 bucks in 1972 always looked= to green to me by comparison it rates right up there with BLI no sound thou= gh.

Honest I don't mean to be critical though... 3^)

Greg Martin --part1_161.24a9e52d.2c7c1e1a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:24:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark From: beth capl caples I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled postcard. The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. Aug. 5 1922 RPO" Also what ever became of this railroad? Was it later merged into a larger railroad like the PRR or was it abandoned, etc? Thanks , John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? Greg, Saw my first BLI GG1 today as well. Looks Kinda Green. Looks like a Pemco or AHM GG1 Green Shade a bit. Never saw a real one so I can't compare colors that way. Seen plenty of color photos but that dosn't help either due to color shift. Maybe they were green looking when freshly painted or varnished? Maybe an email should be sent to all known model manufacturrers that the PRRTH&S is willing to help on any future producs that deal with the DGLE color? Seriously, send each a Color Drift sample to help them get the color more correct.........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography data request, correction --- robert netzlof wrote: > ...My impression > has been that in setting up a new edition of CT1000, set for each > page of "the big book".... I should have said "...CT1000, type was set for each..." Danged auld fartes can't type worth a darn, grumble, grumble. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:53:30 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark --- beth capl caples wrote: > I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled > postcard. > The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. > Aug. 5 1922 > RPO" For some reason it runs in my mind that the RPO post marks were based on the mail route the particular RPO served, rather than the name of the railroad on which it ran. Can't recall a reference to prove that though. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:25:20 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey Yuze Gize... > > Am I the only one that sees the GG1 in DGLE as way to green??? And the Buff > as way too? >> >> SNIP >> NO. The color matches my AHM engines. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:31:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? --part1_103.34e3163d.2c7c2e95_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, I don't believe you can rationalize this one... DGLE ... black and copper salts don't make green in a vehicle of oil based solvents ... only badly oxidized paint would show any marked green shade... A good rule of thumb for Buff ... think of the color of whipped butter ... chrome yellow White and Indian Red... I wonder who they consulted with to do the P&L on these one? Please lets not start sending them drift cards. Color scales down and no reason to confuse the issue. What has a hint of green on a drift card will be too green in scale? I must admit I do like the Tuscan Red though. Greg Martin --part1_103.34e3163d.2c7c2e95_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gary,


I don't believe you can rationalize this one... DGLE ... black and copper sa= lts don't make green in a vehicle of oil based solvents ... only badly oxidi= zed paint would show any marked green shade...

A good rule of thumb for Buff ... think of the color of whipped butter ... c= hrome yellow White and Indian Red... I wonder who they consulted with to do=20= the P&L on these one? 

Please lets not start sending them drift cards. Color scales down and no rea= son to confuse the issue. What has a hint of green on a drift card will be t= oo green in scale?

I must admit I do like the Tuscan Red though.

Greg Martin --part1_103.34e3163d.2c7c2e95_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:02:40 -0400 You are right about the routes vs. rr names. The routes were what determined the cancellation stamp. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "beth capl caples" ; Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark > --- beth capl caples wrote: > > I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled > > postcard. > > The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. > > Aug. 5 1922 > > RPO" > > For some reason it runs in my mind that the RPO post marks were based > on the mail route the particular RPO served, rather than the name of > the railroad on which it ran. Can't recall a reference to prove that > though. > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:50:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? >TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: >> Hey Yuze Gize... >> >> Am I the only one that sees the GG1 in DGLE as way to green??? And the Buff >> as way too? > > >> > >> SNIP > >> > >NO. The color matches my AHM engines. > >Garry Spear Garry, It certainly doesn't match the Premier engines (which are considerably darker than BLI)...of course, I always felt the IHC engines were still a little too green so I strip em and paint em with Poly Scale Brunswick Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:14:19 +0000 There were two shades IMHO. One for passenger and one for freight. The passenger G's regularly ran through the washers and were various shades of glossy to oxidized DGLE. The freight G's were usually the color of dirt as I remember. It was rare to see a G in freight service that didn't need a good bath to the point you wouldn't want to touch one for fear of looking like Pigpen in the Peanuts cartoon strip. > Greg, > > Saw my first BLI GG1 today as well. Looks Kinda Green. Looks like a > Pemco or AHM GG1 Green Shade a bit. Never saw a real one so I can't > compare colors that way. Seen plenty of color photos but that dosn't > help either due to color shift. Maybe they were green looking when > freshly painted or varnished? Maybe an email should be sent to all known > model manufacturrers that the PRRTH&S is willing to help on any future > producs that deal with the DGLE color? Seriously, send each a Color > Drift sample to help them get the color more correct.........Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:15:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing From: Jerry Britton Just an idea I'll throw out to the list members and the PRRT&HS BoD... I think the forthcoming CD/DVD collection of The Keystone will be a tremendous success. At the same time, we are looking for ways to bring new blood into the Society. What if we approached a few sites (Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, perhaps others) about allowing us to install a computer kiosk into their displays and allow public access to the Keystone collection at absolutely no cost? It should be a system with no method of output -- no printing, no copying files to disk, etc. -- so as to not lose our intellectual property to non-members. Providing such a free resource to researches ought to get a bunch of them to fork over the bucks to join in order to get any new info as quickly as it comes out. Part of the agreement with the host facility would be to display a Society membership brochure. Food for thought... Also, with regard to the CD version of the archive: Since it will occupy multiple CD's, it would be nice if the programming were done in a way such that a user could put the index file on their hard drive so that they could navigate between the index and various issues without having to constantly change CD's. That is, if you search the index on CD1 and the destination issue is on CD2, you'll change CD's. But if you want to do another search, you'd have to reinsert CD1. Depending on the results, you might go back to CD2 again. But if the index/search process could operate from the hard drive, there would be a reduction in disk swapping. DVD users won't have this issue. But I think CD sales will be greater due to compatability issues. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:36:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: RPO Cancellation Mark From: John Sheets John > I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled > postcard. > The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. > Aug. 5 1922 > RPO" > Also what ever became of this railroad? Was it later merged into a larger > railroad like the PRR or was it abandoned, etc? > Thanks , John Caples Believe that in most cases the RPO cancellation mark identified the origin and destination of the mail run, not necessarily the road on which it ran. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:43:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI & GG1 is that DGLE????? >There were two shades IMHO. One for passenger and one for freight. The >passenger G's regularly ran through the washers and were various shades of >glossy to oxidized DGLE. The freight G's were usually the color of dirt as I >remember. It was rare to see a G in freight service that didn't need a good >bath to the point you wouldn't want to touch one for fear of looking like >Pigpen in the Peanuts cartoon strip. Indeed! But when they started out, the paint all came out of the same can . In reality, very few photos show a clearly green cast to GG1s and a great many show the classic black green that Greg strives for, even on passenger assigned motors. The most reasonable explanation for the green color in photos is a combination of color shift in the film, lighting conditions, and surface (varnish, polish, oxidation...) One thing I noticed VERY clearly in studying GG1 photos was the weathering pattern. Filthy dirty GG1s were a VERY late PRR or PC/CR phenom. GG1s in PRR service tended to get dirty on the nose first. Sometimes this would be to the point of obliterating the nose keystone/number, yet the sides would remain fairly clean. You've heard of the "bow wave" weathering pattern? That fits the GG1 to a T! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:49:58 -0400 Yes, and the route was probably Harrisburg (PA) and Winchester (VA) on the PRR. Would imagine PRR still ran an "accomodation" between those cities in 1922. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Denton" To: "robert netzlof" ; "beth capl caples" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark > You are right about the routes vs. rr names. The routes were what > determined the cancellation stamp. > > Larry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert netzlof" > To: "beth capl caples" ; > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:53 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] prr talk re: RPO cancellation mark > > > > --- beth capl caples wrote: > > > I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled > > > postcard. > > > The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. > > > Aug. 5 1922 > > > RPO" > > > > For some reason it runs in my mind that the RPO post marks were based > > on the mail route the particular RPO served, rather than the name of > > the railroad on which it ran. Can't recall a reference to prove that > > though. > > > > > > > > ===== > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:45:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: RPO Cancellation Mark From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 09:36 AM, John Sheets wrote: >> I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled >> postcard. >> The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. >> Aug. 5 1922 >> RPO" >> Also what ever became of this railroad? Was it later merged into a >> larger >> railroad like the PRR or was it abandoned, etc? >> Thanks , John Caples > > > Believe that in most cases the RPO cancellation mark identified the > origin > and destination of the mail run, not necessarily the road on which it > ran. From the first time I saw this thread, my mind was thinking "Harrisburg to Winchester". But that's just a guess. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:58:12 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: RPO cancellation mark John, My father was very interested in RPO cancels, as well as general stamp collecting. One of his references, _Railroad Postal Routes from 1867 to 1961_, gives this route as: Harrisburg, Pa., to Winchester, Virginia, on the PRR, a distance of 115 miles, operating from 1889 to 1949. The route then was operated as an HPO (Highway Post Office), 144 miles, from 1949 to 1958. Note that "Harris. & Winch." refers to the route as abbreviated on the cancellation, not the railroad company. Steve Bartlett John Caples wrote: I need help in identifying a railroad that appears on a cancelled postcard. The mark reads "Harris. & Winch. Aug. 5 1922 .1 3 RPO" Also what ever became of this railroad? Was it later merged into a larger railroad like the PRR or was it abandoned, etc? Thanks , John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:42:27 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Rail Classics X30 (was: A NEW PROJECT The X30 was primarily in captive service for the Elmira NY LaFrance factory. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:19:09 +0000 The CT100E was invaluable in naming the industries for agiven area but what publication indicates on which side of the mains the industry tracks were located. ABC Co. at MP89.1 is great but how can I research if it is a facing point or trailing point track and on the north or south side? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:37:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 11:19 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > The CT100E was invaluable in naming the industries for agiven area but > what > publication indicates on which side of the mains the industry tracks > were > located. ABC Co. at MP89.1 is great but how can I research if it is a > facing > point or trailing point track and on the north or south side? Thanks. Valuation maps may be the only way to determine this, and even then the property owners are not always shown, or they are for an era different than you are interested in. Still, val maps are an awesome modeling aide, IMHO. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:50:38 -0400 What would be the cost/who would pay to install/maintain the computer kiosks? Of course the society seems to have a few bucks in the treasury, and new members would be all to the good. Big question: How do we reach out and grab 'em to get 'em to give it an initial try to see just how much is there and how good the quality of the (later) Keystones are? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:15 AM Subject: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing > Just an idea I'll throw out to the list members and the PRRT&HS BoD... > > I think the forthcoming CD/DVD collection of The Keystone will be a > tremendous success. > > At the same time, we are looking for ways to bring new blood into the > Society. > > What if we approached a few sites (Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, perhaps others) about allowing us > to install a computer kiosk into their displays and allow public access > to the Keystone collection at absolutely no cost? > > It should be a system with no method of output -- no printing, no > copying files to disk, etc. -- so as to not lose our intellectual > property to non-members. > > Providing such a free resource to researches ought to get a bunch of > them to fork over the bucks to join in order to get any new info as > quickly as it comes out. > > Part of the agreement with the host facility would be to display a > Society membership brochure. > > Food for thought... > > > Also, with regard to the CD version of the archive: Since it will > occupy multiple CD's, it would be nice if the programming were done in > a way such that a user could put the index file on their hard drive so > that they could navigate between the index and various issues without > having to constantly change CD's. That is, if you search the index on > CD1 and the destination issue is on CD2, you'll change CD's. But if you > want to do another search, you'd have to reinsert CD1. Depending on the > results, you might go back to CD2 again. But if the index/search > process could operate from the hard drive, there would be a reduction > in disk swapping. > > DVD users won't have this issue. But I think CD sales will be greater > due to compatability issues. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:15:12 -0400 Sanborn Fire Insurance maps are great for this in cities and towns that were big enough to have them. They can be accessed from many libraries and most college and university libraries free of charge, whether you have any association with the school or not. Cornell University's Olin Library, for example, has access to digital Sanborn maps for the entire continental US online from any terminal on campus. What's more, you can download and copy them to Zip disk or CD-R. The files are huge, so I'd take a stack of CD-R's. The online maps are black and white. Library map rooms also often have the paper maps for their state anyway, which are in color, and will let you photograph them. With a good camera, tripod, and close-up lenses you can do a nice job. Note that they often prohibit the use of flash, and some prohibit photography. Always call ahead. Hope this helps. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:19 AM Subject: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? > The CT100E was invaluable in naming the industries for agiven area but what > publication indicates on which side of the mains the industry tracks were > located. ABC Co. at MP89.1 is great but how can I research if it is a facing > point or trailing point track and on the north or south side? Thanks. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:33:47 -0400 I sent part of this as a reply to a question with subject "which side of the tracks," but thought I'd expand it and send it under the more logical title of Sanborn Maps and post it to some other lists also. Sanborn Fire Insurance maps are great for detailed track plans/layout in cities, towns, and areas that were big enough to have them. They can be accessed from many libraries and most college and university libraries free of charge, whether you have any association with the school or not. Cornell University's Olin Library, for example, has access to digital Sanborn maps online from any terminal on campus. What's more, you can download and copy them to Zip disk or CD-R. The files are huge, so I'd take a stack of CD-R's. The online maps are black and white. Library map rooms also often have the paper maps for their state anyway, which are in color, and they will often let you photograph them. With a good camera, tripod, and close-up lenses you can do a nice job. Some will even let you use flash, others won't. And some prohibit photography altogether. Always best to call ahead. But these maps are worth going to a lot of trouble to access - they provide incredible detail on railroads. The scale is 50 feet to the foot! Compared to topo maps you are going from an aerial view to a microscope! So far I haven't been successful at accessing them from home. You can get to their main page, but need username and password to proceed. The libraries license doesn't extend to granting permission for home access. They only sell licenses to institutions and the cost is way prohibitive for home purchase of a license anyway. You can purchase Sanborn maps on CD, but they are quite expensive and are Adobe Acrobat files with no index - very cumbersome to work with. For example, CD version of Williamsport PA cost $140 (!!!) and has 140 maps with no way to tell whether you're looking at 1945 or 1912 version on any individual map, and no index - just numbers. I bought the CD's before Olin Library got the online digital access and spent days sorting them into sections of Williamsport and renaming them. Oh well, we ferro-equinological-archeological/SPF's will go to great lengths for historical information! As my wife keeps telling me, this presentation on Williamsport at the Perans Convention in Camp Hill in '05 better be darn good - I sure have a lot of time, effort, cost, and many road trips in it. But isn't that what retirement and hobbies are all about? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:29 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? --- Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 11:19 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > The CT100E was invaluable in naming the industries for agiven > area but > > what > > publication indicates on which side of the mains the industry > tracks > > were > > located. ABC Co. at MP89.1 is great but how can I research if it > is a > > facing > > point or trailing point track and on the north or south side? > Thanks. > > Valuation maps may be the only way to determine this, and even then > the > property owners are not always shown, or they are for an era > different > than you are interested in. Still, val maps are an awesome modeling > > aide, IMHO. And don't forget the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps. Not as good for track layout, but very precise about buildings. But if MP89.1 is out in the boondocks, sorry, no map. By the way, the mileages given in the CT1000's aren't mile posts. For examp.&nbmile posts on the old main line begin at 0 somewhere in Phialdelphia and progress upward toward and to Pittsburgh. But the mileages shown in the CT1000 restart at 0 at or near the beginning of each division. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:50:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, William Bigler wrote: > What would be the cost/who would pay to install/maintain the computer > kiosks? Of course the society seems to have a few bucks in the treasury, > and new members would be all to the good. Big question: How do we reach Well, perhaps if the Cyber Division still has money in the treasury, this might be a good project for them (us). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:02:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 01:50 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, William Bigler wrote: > >> What would be the cost/who would pay to install/maintain the computer >> kiosks? Of course the society seems to have a few bucks in the >> treasury, >> and new members would be all to the good. Big question: How do we >> reach > > Well, perhaps if the Cyber Division still has money in the treasury, > this > might be a good project for them (us). Cyber Division? How 'bout Cryo Division... as in, cryogenically frozen until something comes along that will allow it to live! I've not been a member for 2-3 years due to non-activity of the group. I don't even know who the officers are at this point. The web site -- at least the one on my server -- hasn't been updated in years. (Though I'm more than happy to host it!) Last action I know of was the group making a donation to the Society for a computer at Lewistown. This was done a few years ago at a Camp Hill convention. Was the computer ever purchased? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:22:51 -0400 Jerry, et al., I will be forming a Long Range Planning Committee in the near future to address the subject of Society survival and growth. I already have five top notch people picked out for this task but have yet to solicit their cooperation. Many of the suggestions made by various folks during the past several weeks, when I solicited input on this subject, will be taken up. Ideas like installing computer kiosks will be one of the items taken under advisement. Regarding the index for multiple CDs - given the capacity of contemporary hard drives, it's quite feasible to put the index AND the magazines onto one's hard drive. This ought to come to 2.5 to 3 GB when done: not a whole lot of space for Average Joe who's getting a 30 or 40 GB drive in his computer. Each CD will contain the instructions on how to do this. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:29:01 -0400 Re: Last action I know of was the group making a donation to the Society for a computer at Lewistown. This was done a few years ago at a Camp Hill convention. Was the computer ever purchased? The CD donation was an agenda item during the August 16th BoD meeting. The answer is, no the mone> Nos not yet been spent as the total computer configuration for the archives has not yet been determined. Rest assured that when the configuration is established the money will be spent and reported on. AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:47:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILFEST - PHOTO CONTEST --part1_57.2152d59a.2c7d217f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R3JlZXRpbmdzIHRvIExpc3Q6CkFsdG9vbmEgUmFpbHJvYWRlcidzIE1lbW9yaWFsIE11c2V1 bSBpcyBhbm5vdW5jaW5nIHRoZWlyIFNlY29uZCBBbm51YWwgClBob3RvZ3JhcGh5IENvbnRl c3QgaW4gY29uanVuY3Rpb24gd2l0aCBSYWlsZmVzdC4gIFRoaXMgd291bGQgaW5jbHVkZSBp bWFnZXMgYW55b25lIAptaWdodCB3YW50IHRvIHN1Ym1pdCBmcm9tIHRoZSBQZW5uc3lsdmFu aWEgUmFpbHJvYWQtZXJhIGFzIHdlbGwuIApUaGlzIGNvbnRlc3QgaGFzIGJlZW4gZXZvbHZp bmcgZnJvbSBhbiBhdHRlbXB0IGxhc3QgeWVhciwgYW5kIGZvbGxvd2luZyBhcmUgCnRoZSBj b250ZXN0IGd1aWRlbGluZXMuIEluIGZ1dHVyZSB5ZWFycywgSSBhbnRpY2lwYXRlIGFkZGl0 aW9uYWwgbGVhZC10aW1lIGZvciAKcHJlcGFyYXRpb25zLiAgCkRhdmUgU2VpZGVsLCBBbHRv b25hLCBQQSAgClBSUlQmSFMKTlJIUyAgICAgICAgCgpSQUlMUk9BREVSJ1MgTUVNT1JJQUwg TVVTRVVNCjEzMDAgOVRIIEFWRU5VRQpBTFRPT05BLCBQQSAxNjYwMgoKU0VDT05EIEFOTlVB TCBQSE9UT0dSQVBIWSBDT05URVNUCkZvcgpSQUlMRkVTVCAyMDAzCgpPUEVOIENPTVBFVElU SU9OIEdVSURFTElORVMKClBob3RvZ3JhcGh5IGVudHJpZXMgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBm b2xsb3dpbmcgZ3VpZGVsaW5lcywgYXJlIHNvbGljaXRlZCBieSAKUmFpbHJvYWRlcidzIE1l bW9yaWFsIE11c2V1bSwgQWx0b29uYSwgUEEuwqAgVGhlIGV4aGliaXQgd2lsbCBvcGVuIGlu IE1lbW9yaWFsIApIYWxsIG9uIE9jdG9iZXIgMSwgMjAwMyBpbiBjb25qdW5jdGlvbiB3aXRo IHRoZSBhbm51YWwgUkFJTEZFU1Qgd2Vla2VuZCwgYW5kIApjb250aW51ZSB1bnRpbCBPY3Rv YmVyIDI2dGguCgpUaGlzIGlzIGEgUFJJTlQgQ09NUEVUSVRJT04uIENvbG9yIG9yIEJsYWNr IGFuZCBXaGl0ZSBlbnRyaWVzIG1heSBiZSAKc3VibWl0dGVkLsKgIE5hbWUsIGFkZHJlc3Ms IGFuZCB0aXRsZSBvZiB3b3JrIG11c3QgYmUgb24gYmFjayBvZiB3b3JrLgoKTWluaW11bSBw aG90by1wcmludCBzaXplIGlzIDggWCAxMCBpbmNoZXMgb3IgbGFyZ2VyLMKgIG1vdW50ZWQs IG9yIG1hdHRlZCwgb24gCmFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIG1hdCBtYXRlcmlhbC7CoCBGcmFtaW5nIGlz IG5vdCByZXF1aXJlZCwgYnV0IGZyYW1lZCBwcmludHMgd2lsbCBiZSAKYWNjZXB0ZWQgYXQg dGhlIGRpc2NyZXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHBlcnNvbiBzdWJtaXR0aW5nIGhpcy9oZXIgd29yay4K CkVudHJ5IEZlZTrCoCBOb25lCgpFbnRyaWVzIG1heSBiZSBoYW5kLWRlbGl2ZXJlZCB0byBS YWlscm9hZGVyJ3MgTWVtb3JpYWwgTXVzZXVtIG5vdCBsYXRlciB0aGFuIApTZXB0ZW1iZXIg MjB0aCwgMjAwMy7CoCBNYWlsZWQgZW50cmllcyB3aWxsIGJlIGFjY2VwdGVkO8KgIGhvd2V2 ZXIsIHBlcnNvbnMgCm1haWxpbmcgZW50cmllcyBtdXN0IGluY2x1ZGUgcmV0dXJuIHBvc3Rh Z2UgYW5kIHBhY2thZ2luZyBtYXRlcmlhbCB0byBpbnN1cmUgCnJldHVybiBvZiB0aGUgd29y ay4KCkFsbCBlbnRyaWVzIHdpbGwgYmUgcmV0dXJuZWQuCgpFbnRyeSBvZiBlYWNoIHBob3Rv Z3JhcGggY29udmV5cyBwZXJtaXNzaW9uIHRvIFJhaWxyb2FkZXIncyBNZW1vcmlhbCBNdXNl dW0gCnRvIHV0aWxpemUgYSAncHJpemUtd2lubmluZycgaW1hZ2UsIGF0IGl0J3MgZGlzY3Jl dGlvbizCoCBmb3IgcHJvbW90aW9uYWwgCnB1cnBvc2VzLCBvciBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiwgdG8g YmVuZWZpdCBSYWlscm9hZGVyJ3MgTWVtb3JpYWwgTXVzZXVtLsKgIFByb3BlciAKcGhvdG9n cmFwaGljIGNyZWRpdCB3aWxsIGJlIGdpdmVuIGluIGFueSBpbnN0YW5jZSwgYW5kIHRoZSBv cmlnaW5hbCB3b3JrIHdpbGwgYmUgCnJldHVybmVkLiBGaXJzdCwgU2Vjb25kLCBhbmQgVGhp cmQgUHJpemVzIHdpbGwgYmUgYXdhcmRlZC4KClNVQkpFQ1Q6wqAgQW55IHJhaWxyb2FkIHRo ZW1lIHdoaWNoIHJlbGF0ZXMgdG8gQWx0b29uYSdzIGhpc3RvcmljYWwgCmFzc29jaWF0aW9u IHdpdGggdGhlIHJhaWxyb2FkIGluZHVzdHJ5LCBmcm9tIGFueSB0aW1lIHBlcmlvZC4gVGhp cyB3b3VsZCBpbmNsdWRlIHRoZSAKUGVubnN5bHZhbmlhIFJhaWxyb2FkIGVyYSwgUGVubi1D ZW50cmFsIGVyYSwgQ29ucmFpbCBlcmEsIGFuZCBOb3Jmb2xrIFNvdXRoZXJuLsKgIApJbiBh ZGRpdGlvbiwgZW50cmllcyBhcmUgYWxzbyBzb2xpY2l0ZWQgaW4gYSBTcGVjaWFsIENhdGVn b3J5IGRlYWxpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUgCkhvcnNlc2hvZSBDdXJ2ZSBpbiBjb25qdW5jdGlvbiB3 aXRoIHRoZSBmb3J0aGNvbWluZyAxNTB0aCBBbm5pdmVyc2FyeSBvZiB0aGlzIAplbmdpbmVl cmluZyBsYW5kbWFyay7CoCBUaGUgQmVzdC1vZi1TaG93IGZvciB0aGUgSG9yc2VzaG9lIEN1 cnZlIGNhdGVnb3J5IHdpbGwgCmJlIHNlbGVjdGVkIGZvciBpbmNsdXNpb24gaW4gYSBwcm9w b3NlZCBib29rIGFib3V0IEhvcnNlc2hvZSBDdXJ2ZeKApndpdGggCmFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHBo b3RvZ3JhcGhpYyBjcmVkaXQuCgpSYWlscm9hZGVyJ3MgTWVtb3JpYWwgTXVzZXVtOiAoODE0 KSA5NDYtMDgzNMKgwqDCoMKgIHd3dy5yYWlscm9hZGNpdHkuY29tCgoKCgoKCg== --part1_57.2152d59a.2c7d217f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; 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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? There are PRR "Industry" track charts which does show which side of the tracks the business is located. They're pretty much hard to find but they do pop up on eBay from time to time. I have a few of those charts,mostly Lines West. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:42:46 -0400 List, They ought to be hard to find. They're called "Left-Right Reports" and were prepared by the traffic department for business car trips by the top officials. Each industry was listed, along with its contributions to the PRR in carload and revenue. It was considered as confidential as payroll reports. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "William Bigler" Cc: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? > > There are PRR "Industry" track charts which does show which side > of the tracks the business is located. They're pretty much hard to find > but they do pop up on eBay from time to time. I have a few of those > charts,mostly Lines West. > > Dave > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:07:19 -0400 Re: There are PRR "Industry" track charts which does show which side of the tracks the business is located. Mostly these are what I refer to as track diagrams (as opposed to track charts), which show yard and side tracks in detail including track numbers, use, and industry served if applicable. There are also DICCS (I believe that acronym is correct) charts (maps), which were developed I believe during the PC daze that show all industries, track designations, unloading facilities, etc. and I believe that these were continued into the Conrail era as ZITS maps. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:13:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - RPO cancellation marks From: beth capl caples Thank each and everyone of you for the replies. I learned a lot in a short time. I can now appreciate the mark even more that I know where it came from and what it means. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:21:01 -0400 Hi All, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the special show I am watching now on WYBE Channel 9. It is on the current use of stations in Pennsylvania. I think most of them are PRR. There have been restaurants, research centers, and private homes so far. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:26:32 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing The latest statement arrived today. The Cyber treasury has $1,055.58. I never deposited dues checks last year. I was afraid that since Jerry didn't renew, he wouldn't be interested in continuing to host the group. A kiosk at the Strasburg museum sounds like a great idea. I have no idea how much it would cost to set it up, though. More than we have I expect. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 01:50 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > >> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, William Bigler wrote: >> >>> What would be the cost/who would pay to install/maintain the computer >>> kiosks? Of course the society seems to have a few bucks in the >>> treasury, >>> and new members would be all to the good. Big question: How do we >>> reach >> >> >> Well, perhaps if the Cyber Division still has money in the treasury, >> this >> might be a good project for them (us). > > > Cyber Division? How 'bout Cryo Division... as in, cryogenically frozen > until something comes along that will allow it to live! > > I've not been a member for 2-3 years due to non-actUYy of the group. > I don't even know who the officers are at this point. The web site -- > at least the one on my server -- hasn't been updated in years. (Though > I'm more than happy to host it!) > > Last action I know of was the group making a donation to the Society > for a computer at Lewistown. This was done a few years ago at a Camp > Hill convention. Was the computer ever purchased? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:54:12 -0400 I still like the idea of the Cyber group and a Cyber chapter of PRRT&HS - we shouldn't give up if others agree. In today's world it makes an awful lot of sense. Although in some ways PRR-Talk is awfully close to a Cyber Chapter already. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ryan" To: "PRR Cyber-Talk" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:26 PM Subject: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing > The latest statement arrived today. The Cyber treasury has $1,055.58. > > I never deposited dues checks last year. I was afraid that since Jerry > didn't renew, he wouldn't be interested in continuing to host the group. > > A kiosk at the Strasburg museum sounds like a great idea. I have no > idea how much it would cost to set it up, though. More than we have I > expect. > > John Ryan > > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 01:50 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, William Bigler wrote: > >> > >>> What would be the cost/who would pay to install/maintain the computer > >>> kiosks? Of course the society seems to have a few bucks in the > >>> treasury, > >>> and new members would be all to the good. Big question: How do we > >>> reach > >> > >> > >> Well, perhaps if the Cyber Division still has money in the treasury, > >> this > >> might be a good project for them (us). > > > > > > Cyber Division? How 'bout Cryo Division... as in, cryogenically frozen > > until something comes along that will allow it to live! > > > > I've not been a member for 2-3 years due to non-activity of the group. > > I don't even know who the offic=3D"are at this point. The web site -- > > at least the one on my server -- hasn't been updated in years. (Though > > I'm more than happy to host it!) > > > > Last action I know of was the group making a donation to the Society > > for a computer at Lewistown. This was done a few years ago at a Camp > > Hill convention. Was the computer ever purchased? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) > business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should > take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, > when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:21:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Restored PRR Stations Hi All, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the special show I am watching now on WYBE Channel 9. It is on the current use of stations in Pennsylvania. I think most of them are PRR. There have been restaurants, research centers, and private homes so far. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations part 2 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:04:50 -0400 Hi all, The 1-hour show just finished. It was interesting to watch. Here is a link that was promoted throughout the show. http://www.patrainstations.org Most segments were under 4 minutes long. I kept waiting to see the Lewistown Station featured, but it was not. I am thinking what a missed opportunity that was for the PRR T &HS to not be involved in the show, and promoted as the owner of a station under restoration for the preservation of the PRR. Were we asked to participate? Al Buchan? Anyone? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:44:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subj.: 23RD Nat'l Narrow Gauge Convention --part1_189.1df6a4bd.2c7d8319_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone else attending this convention in Denver, Colorado? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_189.1df6a4bd.2c7d8319_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Is anyone else attending this convention in Den= ver, Colorado?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_189.1df6a4bd.2c7d8319_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:43:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 10:26 PM, John Ryan wrote: > The latest statement arrived today. The Cyber treasury has $1,055.58. > > I never deposited dues checks last year. I was afraid that since > Jerry didn't renew, he wouldn't be interested in continuing to host > the group. I was never asked, though. And, yes, I am more than happy to host the group. I host sites for many PRR groups that I am not a member of. > > A kiosk at the Strasburg museum sounds like a great idea. I have no > idea how much it would cost to set it up, though. More than we have I > expect. Given that you want something data cannot be exported from, and you want a clean look, $1K would not do it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Train Stations of Pennsylvania Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:32:04 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C36C75.B2ABC1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, A nice project. However, I was disappointed that you did not included the completely restored PRR train station in Lewistown, PA owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. In 1985 the Society acquired the former PRR Lewistown, Pennsylvania passenger station from Amtrak for the purposes of housing its archives. A Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission marker located near the station explains its significance with the following statement - "The oldest surviving structure known to have been built by the Pennsylvania Railroad. This station was constructed in 1848-49 as a freight handling warehouse. On September 1, 1849, this was the scene of a banquet celebrating the opening of the railroad to Lewistown. The building was renovated and converted into a passenger station in 1868." The Society's Middle Division Chapter continues to operate a waiting room for the Amtrak trains that stop at Lewistown daily. Penn State students use this station traveling to and from the campus and their homes. Since 1985 the entire interior and exterior of the station has been completely refurbished, and to some extent reconstructed by the Society, using both volunteer and contracted labor. The tower, removed by the PRR in 1956 has been completely restored. In addition, most of the building interior was completely gutted, rewired, re-plumbed, insulated, re-sheet rocked and painted. Other major renovations to the building include: replacing the roof, adding a second floor in the baggage room area; converting the baggage house to a bunk house for volunteers; converting an area for the Amtrak waiting room; sandblasting, re-mortaring and painting the exterior brick walls, removing and rebuilding each window; raising, washing and turning the platform paving bricks; and installing a donated heating system. The Society's balance sheet of December 31, 2002, lists the Lewistown station fixed asset capitalized improvements at $273,463. All of the funding for this project came from membership contributions and donations from outside parties. A more complete story of the Lewistown station, written by Society member Peg Stanley, can be found in the story "Rebirth of Lewistown Junction Station," in the Society's book Lewistown and The Pennsylvania Railroad. It is available from our web site www.prrths.com "National Society," , "e-Store." Al Buchan President PRRT&HS ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C36C75.B2ABC1C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Jerry,

A nice project. However, I was disappointed that you = did not=20 included the completely restored PRR train station in Lewistown, PA = owned by the=20 Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society.

In 1985 = the=20 Society acquired the former PRR Lewistown, Pennsylvania passenger = station from=20 Amtrak for the purposes of housing its archives. A Pennsylvania = Historical and=20 Museum Commission marker located near the station explains its = significance with=20 the following statement – “The oldest surviving structure = known to have been=20 built by the Pennsylvania Railroad. This station was constructed in = 1848-49 as a=20 freight handling warehouse. On September 1, 1849, this was the scene of = a=20 banquet celebrating the opening of the railroad to Lewistown. The = building was=20 renovated and converted into a passenger station in = 1868.”  The Society's Middle Division Chapter = continues to=20 operate a waiting room for the Amtrak trains that stop at Lewistown=20 daily. Penn State students use this station traveling to and from = the=20 campus and their homes.

Since 1985 the entire interior and = exterior of the station has been completely refurbished, and to some = extent=20 reconstructed by the Society, using both volunteer and contracted labor. = The=20 tower, removed by the PRR in 1956 has been completely restored. In = addition,=20 most of the building interior was completely gutted, rewired, = re-plumbed,=20 insulated, re-sheet rocked and painted. Other major renovations to the = building=20 include: replacing the roof, adding a second floor in the baggage room = area;=20 converting the baggage house to a bunk house for volunteers; converting = an area=20 for the Amtrak waiting room; sandblasting, re-mortaring and painting the = exterior brick walls, removing and rebuilding each window; raising, = washing and=20 turning the platform paving bricks; and installing a donated heating=20 system.

The Society’s balance sheet of December 31, 2002, = lists the=20 Lewistown station fixed asset capitalized improvements at $273,463. All = of the=20 funding for this project came from membership contributions and = donations from=20 outside parties.

A more complete story of the Lewistown station, = written=20 by Society member Peg Stanley, can be found in the story “Rebirth = of Lewistown=20 Junction Station,” in the Society’s book Lewistown and = The Pennsylvania=20 Railroad.  It is available from our web site www.prrths.com "National Society," ,=20 "e-Store."


Al Buchan
President
PRRT&HS =

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C36C75.B2ABC1C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:04:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Restored PRR Stations part 2 Hi all, The 1-hour show just finished. It was interesting to watch. Here is a link that was promoted throughout the show. http://www.patrainstations.org Most segments were under 4 minutes long. I kept waiting to see the Lewistown Station featured, but it was not. I am thinking what a missed opportunity that was for the PRR T &HS to not be involved in the show, and promoted as the owner of a station under restoration for the preservation of the PRR. Were we asked to participate? Al Buchan? Anyone? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:38:05 -0500 There is a web-site whose prpose is to catalog the where-abouts and dispostion of ALL known train stations within the state of Pennsylvania and Ohio. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:21 PM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations Hi All, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the special show I am watching now on WYBE Channel 9. It is on the current use of stations in Pennsylvania. I think most of them are PRR. There have been restaurants, research centers, and private homes so far. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:58:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg - Renovo Excursion From: Jerry Britton Any listers going on the Harrisburg-Renovo-Keating excursion on October 11th? Bennett, I assume you'll be going since your E8's are the power! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:22:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - Renovo Excursion From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 27, 2003, at 10:15 AM, James Kelling wrote: > Any ideas on what private cars will be in the consist? With Bennett's E8's at head, I would imagine the PRR 120 business car and the Warrior Ridge parlor car. The Harrisburg Chapter NRHS is selling only coach seats, so I suspect most of the cars will be Amtrak coaches. The flyer notes that there will be a food service car for coach passengers. I think early on the chapter was selling parlor seats in the Warrior Ridge, but that is only a recollection and is no longer the case (sold out?). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:30:03 -0800 it's an excellent source.... http://www.west2k.com/pa.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Bill Lane'" ; "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:38 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations > There is a web-site whose prpose is to catalog the where-abouts and > dispostion of ALL known train stations within the state of Pennsylvania and > Ohio. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:21 PM > To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR] Restored PRR Stations > > > Hi All, > > I am surprised that no one has mentioned the special show I am watching now > on WYBE Channel 9. It is on the current use of stations in Pennsylvania. I > think most of them are PRR. There have been restaurants, research centers, > and private homes so far. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:09:41 -0700 Can a copy of these, or anything like them, be found on the web? It seems to me that this would be an interesting thing to make up for a model layout. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; "'William Bigler'" Cc: ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:07 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? > Re: There are PRR "Industry" track charts which does show which side of > the tracks the business is located. > > Mostly these are what I refer to as track diagrams (as opposed to track > charts), which show yard and side tracks in detail including track > numbers, use, and industry served if applicable. There are also DICCS (I > believe that acronym is correct) charts (maps), which were developed I > believe during the PC daze that show all industries, track designations, > unloading facilities, etc. and I believe that these were continued into > the Conrail era as ZITS maps. > > Al > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, John Bruce wrote: > Can a copy of these, or anything like them, be found on the web? It seems > to me that this would be an interesting thing to make up for a model layout. I have an industry track chart in my "to be scanned" pile, but I'm so behind on that pile that I can't make any guesses as to when. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:46:08 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C36CBA.B71E29B0 Content-Type: text/plain Folks; Several good sources for the Pittsburgh area are: 1) CT1000 gives you the industries by name and relative mileages from one another; 2) The "Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District", supplied as a supplement to the "Pennsy in the Steel City" book by Kobus and Consoli, also bound into various editions of the PC and Conrail (maybe PRR, too?) "Maintenance Program and Track Chart, Central Region, Pittsburgh Division" with corrections to that date. This gives you the overall structure of the trackage in the Pgh area and lists many industries alongside of their sidings. This second book also contains the..; 3) Track Charts (diagrams). These are awful hard to find, but worth the wait. Mine (a copy only, I am sad to say) shows every siding and track in the area, for my era, with many (not all) industries listed alongside the sidings, from which you can also figure out the remainder from the CT1000 and make corrections for your date (they do change drastically over time); 4) PRR ETT for your date and region. Often contain the track diagrams for interlockings and areas of track that are changed within the time period covered by the ETT. Also has detail on operations rules, etc. as applied to specific industries (ex: "no open flames shall be permitted within the confines of the Pennsylvania Industrial Chemical Corporation property".... Also contain speed and track restrictions and list of what engines are permitted where; 5) Conrail (or other) "List of Undergrade and Overhead Structures". Shows what bridges and undergrade structures are where and what they are. A bridge at MP XX indicates where, who it is over/under, when built, its construction, type of structure, and ownership. 6) Interlocking/track diagrams. A must if modeling a specific interlocking. Found in blueprint form or other. Usually loose in large piles of similar paper. 7) DICCS for the area. Yes, a PC product. Very rare. I have only seen one portion of a small area. I have yet to find the "Pittsburgh - 30th Street - D.I.C.C.S." chart I need. But it is a dynamite document. Track chart listing all industries, car capacity, etc. I have found ALL of the above with the exception of the DICCS at the PRRT&HS annual meet vendor room. It took me a while to get them all. But that is the source. I use a variant of the DICCS for my track diagrams for laying out my track (plus the industry maps I have obtained for USS and others). No, I have never seen any of the above on a website, but it is worth trying, plus e-bay or other paper vendors may have them. The harder question of "what cars, how many, how often, etc." is an ongoing process for me (25+ years and counting). I am working on establishing this stuff, plus the trains they appeared in, their schedules (no, the "arranged freight service" docs do not get it all right) and how they were operated, for the Monongahela Branch. To say this is a lot of work, and that there are many unanswered questions, would be an understatement. Maybe someday Al will let me link it to the PRRT&HS website.... Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:10 AM To: Al Buchan; zootowerprr@webtv.net; 'William Bigler' Cc: ndbprr@att.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Can a copy of these, or anything like them, be found on the web? It seems to me that this would be an interesting thing to make up for a model layout. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; "'William Bigler'" Cc: ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:07 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? > Re: There are PRR "Industry" track charts which does show which side of > the tracks the business is located. > > Mostly these are what I refer to as track diagrams (as opposed to track > charts), which show yard and side tracks in detail including track > numbers, use, and industry served if applicable. There are also DICCS (I > believe that acronym is correct) charts (maps), which were developed I > believe during the PC daze that show all industries, track designations, > unloading facilities, etc. and I believe that these were continued into > the Conrail era as ZITS maps. > > Al > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C36CBA.B71E29B0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?

Folks;
Several good sources for the Pittsburgh area = are:
1)  CT1000 gives you the industries by name and = relative mileages from one another;
2)  The "Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh = District", supplied as a supplement to the "Pennsy in the = Steel City" book by Kobus and Consoli, also bound into various = editions of the PC and Conrail (maybe PRR, too?) "Maintenance = Program and Track Chart, Central Region, Pittsburgh Division" with = corrections to that date.  This gives you the overall structure of = the trackage in the Pgh area and lists many industries alongside of = their sidings.  This second book also contains the..;

3)  Track Charts (diagrams).  These are = awful hard to find, but worth the wait.  Mine (a copy only, I am = sad to say) shows every siding and track in the area, for my era, with = many (not all) industries listed alongside the sidings, from which you = can also figure out the remainder from the CT1000 and make corrections = for your date (they do change drastically over time);

4)  PRR ETT for your date and region.  = Often contain the track diagrams for interlockings and areas of track = that are changed within the time period covered by the ETT.  Also = has detail on operations rules, etc. as applied to specific industries = (ex: "no open flames shall be permitted within the confines of the = Pennsylvania Industrial Chemical Corporation property".... Also = contain speed and track restrictions and list of what engines are = permitted where;

5)  Conrail (or other) "List of Undergrade = and Overhead Structures".  Shows what bridges and undergrade = structures are where and what they are.  A bridge at MP XX = indicates where, who it is over/under, when built, its construction, = type of structure, and ownership.

6) Interlocking/track diagrams.  A must if = modeling a specific interlocking.  Found in blueprint form or = other.  Usually loose in large piles of similar paper.

7)  DICCS for the area.  Yes, a PC = product.  Very rare.  I have only seen one portion of a small = area.  I have yet to find the "Pittsburgh - 30th Street - = D.I.C.C.S." chart I need.  But it is a dynamite = document.  Track chart listing all industries, car capacity, = etc.

I have found ALL of the above with the exception of = the DICCS at the PRRT&HS annual meet vendor room.  It took me = a while to get them all.  But that is the source.  I use a = variant of the DICCS for my track diagrams for laying out my track = (plus the industry maps I have obtained for USS and others).  No, = I have never seen any of the above on a website, but it is worth = trying, plus e-bay or other paper vendors may have them.

The harder question of "what cars, how many, how = often, etc." is an ongoing process for me (25+ years and = counting). I am working on establishing this stuff, plus the trains = they appeared in, their schedules (no, the "arranged freight = service" docs do not get it all right) and how they were operated, = for the Monongahela Branch.  To say this is a lot of work, and = that there are many unanswered questions, would be an = understatement.  Maybe someday Al will let me link it to the = PRRT&HS website....

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:10 AM
To: Al Buchan; zootowerprr@webtv.net; 'William = Bigler'
Cc: ndbprr@att.net; 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?

Can a copy of these, or anything like them, be found = on the web?  It seems
to me that this would be an interesting thing to = make up for a model layout.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Buchan" = <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
To: <zootowerprr@webtv.net>; "'William = Bigler'" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Cc: <ndbprr@att.net>; "'PRR-Talk'" = <Prr-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?


> Re: There are PRR "Industry" track = charts which does show which side of
> the tracks the business is located.
>
> Mostly these are what I refer to as track = diagrams (as opposed to track
> charts), which show yard and side tracks in = detail including track
> numbers, use, and industry served if = applicable. There are also DICCS (I
> believe that acronym is correct) charts (maps), = which were developed I
> believe during the PC daze that show all = industries, track designations,
> unloading facilities, etc. and I believe that = these were continued into
> the Conrail era as ZITS maps.
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C36CBA.B71E29B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:42:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C36C87.ED510300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?For urban areas like Pittsburgh, = don't forget Sanborn fire insurance maps. They would be quite complete = and extensive for the Pittsburgh area. Any large library should have = them or access to them. (See my post on Sanborn maps of a day or two = ago). Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'John Bruce' ; Al Buchan ; zootowerprr@webtv.net ; 'William = Bigler'=20 Cc: ndbprr@att.net ; 'PRR-Talk'=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:46 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Folks;=20 Several good sources for the Pittsburgh area are:=20 1) CT1000 gives you the industries by name and relative mileages from = one another;=20 2) The "Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District", supplied as a = supplement to the "Pennsy in the Steel City" book by Kobus and Consoli, = also bound into various editions of the PC and=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C36C87.ED510300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?
For urban areas like Pittsburgh, don't forget = Sanborn fire=20 insurance maps.  They would be quite complete and extensive for the = Pittsburgh area.  Any large library should have them or access to=20 them.  (See my post on Sanborn maps of a day or two = ago).
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'John Bruce' ; Al = Buchan=20 ; zootowerprr@webtv.net ; 'William=20 Bigler'
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, = 2003 12:46=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side = of the=20 tracks?

Folks;
Several good = sources for the=20 Pittsburgh area are:
1)  CT1000 gives = you the=20 industries by name and relative mileages from one another; =
2)  The "Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District", = supplied as a=20 supplement to the "Pennsy in the Steel City" book by Kobus and = Consoli, also=20 bound into various editions of the PC and =

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C36C87.ED510300-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - Renovo Excursion Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:47:31 -0400 I must have been sleeping - I just read the subject line and saw "Renovo!" Please tell me again when this excursion is and the schedule as near as it's known - as a Williamsport/Renovo nut, I can't imagine I missed this one! TIA! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "James Kelling" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - Renovo Excursion > On Wednesday, August 27, 2003, at 10:15 AM, James Kelling wrote: > > > Any ideas on what private cars will be in the consist? > > With Bennett's E8's at head, I would imagine the PRR 120 business car > and the Warrior Ridge parlor eser > > The Harrisburg Chapter NRHS is selling only coach seats, so I suspect > most of the cars will be Amtrak coaches. The flyer notes that there > will be a food service car for coach passengers. > > I think early on the chapter was selling parlor seats in the Warrior > Ridge, but that is only a recollection and is no longer the case (sold > out?). > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:41:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - Renovo Excursion From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, August 27, 2003, at 10:47 AM, William Bigler wrote: > I must have been sleeping - I just read the subject line and saw > "Renovo!" > Please tell me again when this excursion is and the schedule as near > as it's > known - as a Williamsport/Renovo nut, I can't imagine I missed this > one! October 11th. Leave Harrisburg at 7:30 a.m. Travel Buffalo main line through Sunbury, Milton, Williamsport, Lock Haven to Renovo. Option to continue 10 miles to Keating to turn train and return to Renovo. Detrain for Pennsylvania State Flaming Foliage Festival, featuring two hour parade, over 20 food vendors, and over 120 craft vendors. Depart Renovo at 4 p.m. for return to Harrisburg, arriving there around 8 p.m. Cost of coach seats is $90 round trip. Registration form available on the Harrisburg Chapter NRHS web site... http://nrhs-hbg.pennsyrr.com/events/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:43:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Jacks tower From: John Sheets Anybody have a link to a photo of Jacks Tower ? TIA JOhn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station List members Recent questions about passenger stations has prompted me to post this query in the hope that someone may be able to direct me to a place where I can find the answer. There appear to have been two different passenger stations that have occupied exactly the same spot in Burgettstown. If one looks at older photos, around the turn of the century and a little later, one will see a passenger station with a peaked roof, like the one shown in the "old photo" at West's PRR station site. However the current station, the one shown in the other picture at West's site has what I think is called a hipped roof. Photographic evidence shows that the hipped roof station has stood since at least some time in the 1930's and is the station that I remember as being the active station back in the 50's and 60's. At first, one would think that the two stations are the same, but that only the roof has been replaced. However, other photo's that I have seen of the older peaked roof station show a window and door arrangement on the front of the station that is not the same as the one on the current hipped roof station. This is what leads me to believe that sometime, probably in the teens or twenties, the first peaked roof station was replaced by the current station sitting in the same spot. It seems to me that on a small wooden station of this size such considerable differences mean a new station rather than mere alterations to the once existing station. Is there anyplace I can find out for sure? Does some sort of historical list of station construction, alteration, etc., exist in an archive anywhere that can explain what really happened here? Any direction to a definitive source would be appreciated, but please don't direct me to the "local library/historical society" here in Burgettstown; for all intents and purposes I (with my admitted lack of knowledge) am mistakenly considered to be the local expert on the subject. Secondly, and also related, there used to be a second passenger station here in Burgettstown, called the "Center Avenue" station. This station was a small building located not far from the old freight station (the wood-waste building shown at West's site) on the "Burgetts" branch and was used by the Pittsburgh commuter trains that once originate/terminated here. This station disappeared sometime in the 50's--one older resident who once worked for the PRR remembers at the end it was being used not as a station but by MOW people. I am looking for a photo of this station. Efforts around town to secure one have proven unsuccessful. For that matter, I would be interested in any old photos of the facilities/buildings in Burgettstown and the surrounding area that someone might have. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:27:59 GMT Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Colors From: Dominic Mazoch Sounds like the scale models have the same color problem Lionel had with the GG-1. The first G's were a very dark green, so bif L changed the color to the one used on their model. But, the first runs were closer to the actual color. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: Derrick J Brashear From: Derrick J Brashear Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Is there anyplace I can find out for sure? Does some > sort of historical list of station construction, > alteration, etc., exist in an archive anywhere that > can explain what really happened here? Any direction > to a definitive source would be appreciated, but > please don't direct me to the "local > library/historical society" here in Burgettstown; for > all intents and purposes I (with my admitted lack of > knowledge) am mistakenly considered to be the local > expert on the subject. How about one of the county offices in Washington? I don't know which row offices you have, but I bet one of them has the records you want. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:33:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Is there anyplace I can find out for sure? Does some > sort of historical list of station construction, > alteration, etc., exist in an archive anywhere that > can explain what really happened here? Any direction > to a definitive source would be appreciated, but > please don't direct me to the "local > library/historical society" here in Burgettstown; for > all intents and purposes I (with my admitted lack of > knowledge) am mistakenly considered to be the local > expert on the subject. How about one of the county offices in Washington? I don't know which row offices you have, but I bet one of them has the records you want. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:35:38 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C36CD2.647DBDC0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill; You're right, and I thoroughly missed in not putting that one in. The Sanborn maps are quite useful in that area, and are available at the John Heinz Center, and from what I understand, at Pitt's Hillman Library? Elden -----Original Message----- From: William Bigler [mailto:wbigler@stny.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:43 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; 'John Bruce'; Al Buchan; zootowerprr@webtv.net Cc: ndbprr@att.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? For urban areas like Pittsburgh, don't forget Sanborn fire insurance maps. They would be quite complete and extensive for the Pittsburgh area. Any large library should have them or access t: noem. (See my post on Sanborn maps of a day or two ago). Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: 'John Bruce' ; Al Buchan ; zootowerprr@webtv.net ; 'William Bigler' Cc: ndbprr@att.net ; 'PRR-Talk' Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:46 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? Folks; Several good sources for the Pittsburgh area are: 1) CT1000 gives you the industries by name and relative mileages from one another; 2) The "Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District", supplied as a supplement to the "Pennsy in the Steel City" book by Kobus and Consoli, also bound into various editions of the PC and ------_=_NextPart_001_01C36CD2.647DBDC0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?

Bill;

You're right, and I thoroughly missed in not putting that one in.  The Sanborn maps are quite useful in that area, and are available at the = John = Heinz = Center, and from what I understand, at Pitt's Hillman = Library?

Elden

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: William Bigler [mailto:wbigler@stny.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August = 27, 2003 7:43 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; 'John = Bruce'; Al Buchan; zootowerprr@webtv.net
Cc: ndbprr@att.net; = 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: Re: [PRR] Which = side of the tracks?

 

For urban areas like = Pittsburgh, don't forget Sanborn fire insurance maps.  They would be quite = complete and extensive for the Pittsburgh area.  Any large library should = have them or access to them.  (See my post on Sanborn maps of a day or two = ago).

 

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo &
     Williamsport WWII

 

----- Original Message = -----

Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:46 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks?

 

Folks;
Several good sources = for the Pittsburgh area are:
1)  CT1000 gives = you the industries by name and relative mileages from one = another;
2)  The = "Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District", supplied as a supplement to the = "Pennsy in the Steel City" book by Kobus and Consoli, also bound into = various editions of the PC and

------_=_NextPart_001_01C36CD2.647DBDC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:53:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Bill; > You're right, and I thoroughly missed in not putting that one in. The > Sanborn maps are quite useful in that area, and are available at the John > Heinz Center, and from what I understand, at Pitt's Hillman Library? Don't know about Hillman but Hunt at CMU has them covering PA and 3 other states. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:04:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station You need to check with which ever office (local or county) issues building permits. Without a date you may have a lot of paper to search. Rich Orr ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:19:58 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 Colors Dominic writes... > Sounds like the scale models have the same color problem Lionel had with the GG-1. The first G's were a very dark green, so bif L changed the color to the one used on their model. But, the first runs were closer to the actual color. > > Dominic Mazoch It is a sad thing that preconceived ideas take precedence when so many of us trying to get things correct. The sad thing is that we are willing to do so without a single dime from someone willing to make it correct. Hopefully we as members of this community can continue to gain some ground on these types of issues before the errors are made. It doesn't stop me, personally, from trying... Some are willing to listen and learn others just fall by the wayside. Keep tuned to the next issue of TKM for some good things happening for all of us that love the Pennsy! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station List members Recent questions about passenger stations has prompted me to post this query in the hope that someone may be able to direct me to a place where I can find the answer. There appear to have been two different passenger stations that have occupied exactly the same spot in Burgettstown. If one looks at older photos, around the turn of the century and a little later, one will see a passenger station with a peaked roof, like the one shown in the "old photo" at West's PRR station site. However the current station, the one shown in the other picture at West's site has what I think is called a hipped roof. Photographic evidence shows that the hipped roof station has stood since at least some time in the 1930's and is the station that I remember as being the active station back in the 50's and 60's. At first, one would think that the two stations are the same, but that only the roof has been replaced. However, other photo's that I have seen of the older peaked roof station show a window and door arrangement on the front of the station that is not the same as the one on the current hipped roof station. This is what leads me to believe that sometime, probably in the teens or twenties, the first peaked roof station was replaced by the current station sitting in the same spot. It seems to me that on a small wooden station of this size such considerable differences mean a new station rather than mere alterations to the once existing station. Is there anyplace I can find out for sure? Does some sort of historical list of station construction, alteration, etc., exist in an archive anywhere that can explain what really happened here? Any direction to a definitive source would be appreciated, but please don't direct me to the "local library/historical society" here in Burgettstown; for all intents and purposes I (with my admitted lack of knowledge) am mistakenly considered to be the local expert on the subject. Secondly, and also related, there used to be a second passenger station here in Burgettstown, called the "Center Avenue" station. This station was a small building located not far from the old freight station (the wood-waste building shown at West's site) on the "Burgetts" branch and was used by the Pittsburgh commuter trains that once originate/terminated here. This station disappeared sometime in the 50's--one older resident who once worked for the PRR remembers at the end it was being used not as a station but by MOW people. I am looking for a photo of this station. Efforts around town to secure one have proven unsuccessful. For that matter, I would be interested in any old photos of the facilities/buildings in Burgettstown and the surrounding area that someone might have. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! G > s Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:58:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing From: "Stuart A. Forsyth" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3144837522_9490188 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Members might look favorably on a single DVD (a growing format for data) in lieu of several CDs. -- Stuart A. Forsyth forsyth@usa.net On 8/26/03 11:22 AM, "Al Buchan" wrote: > Regarding the index for multiple CDs - given the capacity of > contemporary hard drives, it's quite feasible to put the index AND the > magazines onto one's hard drive. This ought to come to 2.5 to 3 GB when > done: not a whole lot of space for Average Joe who's getting a 30 or 40 > GB drive in his computer. Each CD will contain the instructions on how > to do this. --B_3144837522_9490188 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing Members might look favo= rably on a single DVD (a growing format for data) in lieu of several CDs.
--
Stuart A. Forsyth
forsyth@usa.net

 
On 8/26/03 11:22 AM, "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net> wr= ote:

Regarding the index for multiple CDs -  given the capacity of
contemporary hard drives, it's quite feasible to put the index AND the
magazines onto one's hard drive. This ought to come to 2.5 to 3 GB when
done: not a whole lot of space for Average Joe who's getting a 30 or 40
GB drive in his computer.  Each CD will contain the instructions on ho= w
to do this.
--B_3144837522_9490188-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone on CD/DVD & Society Marketing Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:10:32 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C36CBE.1FE80030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: "Members might look favorably on a single DVD (a growing format for data) in lieu of several CDs." Previous postings by the Society and the August 22nd e-NEWS have specified that a DVD will be available - the index issue is not germane to the DVD format only the CD. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C36CBE.1FE80030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Re: "Members might look favorably on = a single=20 DVD (a growing format for data) in lieu of several=20 CDs."
 
Previous postings by the Society and the August = 22nd=20 e-NEWS have specified that a DVD will be available - the index = issue is not=20 germane to the DVD format only the CD.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C36CBE.1FE80030-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:34:16 GMT Subject: [PRR] Lionel Colors From: Dominic Mazoch In the late 1970's, Lionel issues an F-3 AA set in dark green. At the same time, they made a set of O-31 passenger cars painted like the Congo. Lionel made the F-3's in green because they said PRR never had tuscan F-3's.....But many wanted a "matched set". So guess what Lionel did: made a tuscan pair..... This kind of like the errors about the SP. Many people think all SP passenger locomotives were painted Daylight. Most were "Black Widow". Also many people think all SP passenger cars were Daylight. But SP had Olive, 2 tone gray, City yellow, and Sunset... But another railroad many have used the same green as the PRR. I have heard the KCS passenger "black" was not realy black, but DARK GREEN LOCOMOTIVE ENAMEL! Did PRR and KCS buy paint from the same company (I have heard DuPont.) Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:36:28 GMT Subject: [PRR] Something else KCS and PRR had in common From: Dominic Mazoch Both of these railroads also used the trainphone for communications before going to VHF-HI freqs. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Something else KCS and PRR had in common Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:53:09 -0400 Also, Erie builts! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Mazoch" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 6:36 PM Subject: [PRR] Something else KCS and PRR had in common > > Both of these railroads also used the trainphone for communications before going to VHF-HI freqs. > > > Dominic Mazoch > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:58:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? --part1_94.3c3c83cc.2c7eadc1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:49:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > And don't forget the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps. Not as good for > track layout, but very precise about buildings. But if MP89.1 is out > in the boondocks, sorry, no map. > Not so! The Sanborn maps often show isolated industries not in the urban area. They are in small insets, labeled as "xx miles from city hall" or something similar. Lee Rainey --part1_94.3c3c83cc.2c7eadc1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:49:27 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:


And don't forget the Sanborn Fi= re Insurance Maps. Not as good for
track layout, but very precise about buildings. But if MP89.1 is out
in the boondocks, sorry, no map.


Not so! The Sanborn maps often show isolated industries not in the urban are= a. They are in small insets, labeled as "xx miles from city hall" or somethi= ng similar.

Lee Rainey --part1_94.3c3c83cc.2c7eadc1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:06:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? --part1_1d4.fffbc70.2c7eaf87_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/27/2003 4:02:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: > Hunt at CMU has them (Sanborns) covering PA and 3 other > states. > Which states? Lee --part1_1d4.fffbc70.2c7eaf87_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/27/2003 4:02:44 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, shadow@dementia.org writes:


Hunt at CMU has them (Sanborns)= covering PA and 3 other
states.


Which states?

Lee --part1_1d4.fffbc70.2c7eaf87_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel Colors Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:18:23 -0700 Dominic... Most of Espee's passenger locomotives WERE painted Daylight (at least until the replacement bloody nose scheme made it's appearance in the late 50's) with the exception of several E-7's done in Sunset (silver and orange-red) colors. Near the end of the Daylight era a couple of locomotives were painted in their Black Widow colors, but those were the only passenger locomotives to be so painted. Of course, all the freight locomotives were painted in Black Widow colors until the the bloody nose era. Get on the Espee list and ask...many people there are expert in their field (Joe Strapac is probably the best and is a regular poster there) They will be able to better tell you exact dates and road numbers of various locomotives. Bill Daniels On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:34:16 GMT Dominic Mazoch wrote: > > This kind of like the errors about the SP. Many people > think all SP passenger locomotives were painted Daylight. > Most were "Black Widow". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:38:40 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Something else KCS and PRR had in common > Both of these railroads also used the trainphone for communications before going to VHF-HI freqs. >Also, Erie builts! And more importantly they both used Brunswick Green on Passenger equipment... 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:38:46 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Something else KCS and PRR had in common > Both of these railroads also used the trainphone for communications before going to VHF-HI freqs. >Also, Erie builts! And more importantly they both used Brunswick Green on Passenger equipment... 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:04:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower From: Keith Thompson > > Subject: Jacks tower > From: "John Sheets" > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:43:31 -0500 > > Anybody have a link to a photo of Jacks Tower ? > > TIA > > JOhn > > John, Here are some: http://132.235.81.210/Dave/pa/Jacks001.jpg http://132.235.81.210/Dave/pa/Harris07.jpg http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rn_019.jpg http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rn_020.jpg http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rn_021.jpg http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rn_022.jpg http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rn_023.jpg http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rn_024.jpg kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:17:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Which side of the tracks? On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > Hunt at CMU has them (Sanborns) covering PA and 3 other > > states. > > > > Which states? If I remembered, I would have said. However, Google answered it for me http://zeeb.library.cmu.edu/bySubject/Architecture/sanborn.html "Hunt Library holds microfilm of the Library of Congress' Sanborn maps for Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, California and Illinois." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:59:14 -0400 Hi Guys, My friend Jamie went to the State Museum at Strasburg this past Sunday. He said his outdoor tour was VERY limited. You could not get off any of the paved or stone paths in the yard. I could not imagine NOT being able to roam free and take whatever photos and measurements I wanted from ground level. Has anyone else encountered this? Is this a new Museum policy? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:37:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, August 28, 2003, at 06:59 AM, Bill Lane wrote: > My friend Jamie went to the State Museum at Strasburg this past > Sunday. He > said his outdoor tour was VERY limited. You could not get off any of > the > paved or stone paths in the yard. I could not imagine NOT being able > to roam > free and take whatever photos and measurements I wanted from ground > level. > > Has anyone else encountered this? Is this a new Museum policy? I was down about a month ago and encountered the same thing. It was very unfortunate. I don't know if this is a permanent thing, or because they have several steamers pulled apart out in the yard. Could be an asbestos thing? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:05:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I was in Western Penna for 3 weeks and had PRR-Talk turned off. What was the original question that started this thread? Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Derrick J Brashear >To: PRR Fax >Cc: PRR Talk , Pennsy West >Subject: Re: [PRR] Burgettstown PA Main Line Passenger Station >Date: Wed, 27 Aug, 2003, 14:33 > > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > >> Is there anyplace I can find out for sure? Does some >> sort of historical list of station construction, >> alteration, etc., exist in an archive anywhere that >> can explain what really happened here? Any direction >> to a definitive source would be appreciated, but >> please don't direct me to the "local >> library/historical society" here in Burgettstown; for >> all intents and purposes I (with my admitted lack of >> knowledge) am mistakenly considered to be the local >> expert on the subject. > > How about one of the county offices in Washington? I don't know which row > offices you have, but I bet one of them has the records you want. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:17:23 -0500 If they realize you're a real train nut, they may grant you special priveleges, particularly if the tour group is not large. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 6:37 AM To: Bill Lane Cc: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg On Thursday, August 28, 2003, at 06:59 AM, Bill Lane wrote: > My friend Jamie went to the State Museum at Strasburg this past > Sunday. He > said his outdoor tour was VERY limited. You could not get off any of > the > paved or stone paths in the yard. I could not imagine NOT being able > to roam > free and take whatever photos and measurements I wanted from ground > level. > > Has anyone else encountered this? Is this a new Museum policy? I was down about a month ago and encountered the same thing. It was very unfortunate. I don't know if this is a permanent thing, or because they have several steamers pulled apart out in the yard. Could be an asbestos thing? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:43:33 -0400 Gents, I can tell you right now that they are very busy with multiple projects at the museum. The yard sitcher an ex-pp&l plymoth has recently been re-wired and is in service. The Airbrake instruction car is being rebuilt structurally, and any availible research is helping. As Jerry noted steam engines are apart and they're undergoing asbestos abatement. I will find out the full nature of whats going on moinday night and will report. I have a friend that is on the main restoration crew. They have been moving things around the yard trying to get projects worked on and done. Thats all for now, John PS- On Marvins comment I would suggest either calling ahead to let them know your are a train nut and would like to inquire into a better tour of the yard, or maybe mention something at the front desk. I can't garuntee anything but it helps. I've done that before for a school project and had an 'off-season' yard tour to get some pictures of the M1. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:48:17 -0400 Hi all, I visited the Museum on the 7th of this month and they did have the yard area significantly roped off BUT, since it wasn't crowded and they had a staff member to take us around, a nice fella took my wife and I pretty much all over the yard except for some specific areas. There are a couple of really dumb things (at least from my perspective) they have 4800 behind a fence and taped off with very limited access even to staff members because EPA is concerned about the presence of PCBs. They're even testing some of the ground to see if it's been "contaminated" with PCB. Also, money has been provided to strip the asbestos from the locomotives which involves removing the boiler jacket but they didn't provide any funds to put the engines back together! So the beloved L1 is sitting out in the weather with her jacket stripped off. This is the sort of thing that I really find annoying. Neither PCB or asbestos is instantly toxic but long term exposure is absolutely not good. I have a feeling that someone is terrified of some imaginary lawsuit. Of course, maybe there could be some flake who might do that. Anyway, the folks there were really nice especially after they found out I was a fan and knew what I was looking at. So if you go there, drop a little extra in the restoration donation box and let's get the locomotives put back together. Dave O=='=:: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg > Gents, > > I can tell you right now that they are very busy with > multiple projects at the museum. The yard sitcher an > ex-pp&l plymoth has recently been re-wired and is in > service. The Airbrake instruction car is being rebuilt > structurally, and any availible research is helping. As > Jerry noted steam engines are apart and they're undergoing > asbestos abatement. I will find out the full nature of > whats going on moinday night and will report. I have a > friend that is on the main restoration crew. They have > been moving things around the yard trying to get projects > worked on and done. > Thats all for now, > > John > > PS- On Marvins comment I would suggest either calling > ahead to let them know your are a train nut and would like > to inquire into a better tour of the yard, or maybe > mention something at the front desk. I can't garuntee > anything but it helps. I've done that before for a school > project and had an 'off-season' yard tour to get some > pictures of the M1. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Always call ahead! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:31 -0400 I read numerous posts where people visit places and are are disappointed that they couldn't see what they wanted to or that some particular exhibit is closed. There is no substitute for calling ahead - it only takes a minute. Especially when you are driving some distance or staying overnight. And often with a call you can arrange to see an exhibit otherwise off limits to the general public during normal tours etc. To keep the cost of calls down (all calls!), I use an AT&T pre-paid phone card I buy at a local warehouse club (Sam's Club around here). 3.47 cents for domestic minute anywhere in the US including Alaska and Hawaii, 24/7. 9 minute add'l charge (about 32 cents) from a phone booth. International calls are a bit more, but still reasonable. Cards are available from 100 minutes up to 1250 minutes, and time can be added from any phone with a major credit card. Hope this helps! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg List members I was in Strasburg on Monday the 18th of August. While the outside exhibits were supposedly "open", when one went out into the yard almost everything appeared to be roped off. I asked the two staff members who were sitting there where the M-1 was located and was told that I could get a view of it by standing on a caboose platform, but could not go anywhere beyond the roped areas because of the EPA/asbestos issue. Although they were nice, this was disappointing. Also, noticed at least one locomotive inside, evidently "restored", but the boiler jacket had been stripped away and not replaced. Hope as one other list member has suggested that this is not going to be the fate of the other locomotives currently being stripped of asbestos. And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing the asbestos at all? I can already hear the cries of anguish from those who want to protect the public from every conceivable medical harm, but does anyone seriously believe that one is going to acquire asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed steam locomotive boiler? I mean, after all, many of us (and for that matter, our parents) grew up living in houses with asbestos, worked in factories where every pipe was asbestos wrapped, and even went to schools where asbestos was present. Yet to the best of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers seem to have appeared Keysthe most part only amongst those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily basis. I'm sorry, but I think that perhaps there is some overconcern here, similar to those who are appalled because someone is actually lighting a cigarette 100 yards away at an outdoor football game. If I am wrong on this asbestos issue, I am ready to stand corrected by fact. Thanks Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Hot wire foam cutter Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:58:53 +0000 Found this URL on the web for converting an electric soldering iron into a hot wire foam cutter. There are also a couple of videos of it in action. This should help me cut a four track piece of foam with banks fairly easily for my PRR main (I think). http://club.cycom.co.uk/hotwire/Hot_wire_cutter_for_polystyrene_foam.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Reed Kosmal" Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:16:05 -0400 Ron, I agree with you 100% on the asbestos issue, I think you covered it pretty well. It reminds me of the time when I still working as a power company lineman, we had three transformers laying on the ground because of a traffic accident. A news crew arrived and wanted to know if they contained PCBs and if we were going to evacuate the area. Reed Kosmal And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing > the asbestos at all? I can already hear the cries of > anguish from those who want to protect the public from > every conceivable medical harm, but does anyone > seriously believe that one is going to acquire > asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed > steam locomotive boiler? I mean, after all, many of > us (and for that matter, our parents) grew up living > in houses with asbestos, worked in factories where > every pipe was asbestos wrapped, and even went to > schools where asbestos was present. Yet to the best > of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers > seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst > those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily > basis. I'm sorry, but I think that perhaps there is > some overconcern here, similar to those who are > appalled because someone is actually lighting a > cigarette 100 yards away at an outdoor football game. > > If I am wrong on this asbestos issue, I am ready to > stand corrected by fact. > > Thanks > > Ron Di Orio > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg List members I was in Strasburg on Monday the 18th of August. While the outside exhibits were supposedly "open", when one went out into the yard almost everything appeared to be roped off. I asked the two staff members who were sitting there where the M-1 was located and was told that I could get a view of it by standing on a caboose platform, but could not go anywhere beyond the roped areas because of the EPA/asbestos issue. Although they were nice, this was disappointing. Also, noticed at least one locomotive inside, evidently "restored", but the boiler jacket had been stripped away and not replaced. Hope as one other list member has suggested that this is not going to be the fate of the other locomotives currently being stripped of asbestos. And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing the asbestos at all? I can already hear the cries of anguish from those who want to protect the public from every conceivable medical harm, but does anyone seriously believe that one is going to acquire asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed steam locomotive boiler? I mean, after all, many of us (and for that matter, our parents) grew up living in houses with asbestos, worked in factories where every pipe was asbestos wrapped, and even went to schools where asbestos was present. Yet to the best of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily basis. I'm sorry, but I think that perhaps there is some overconcern here, similar to those who are appalled because someone is actually lighting a cigarette 100 yards away at an outdoor football game. If I am wrong on this asbestos issue, I am ready to stand corrected by fact. Thanks Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:59:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Museum at Strasburg Hi Guys, My friend Jamie went to the State Museum at Strasburg this past Sunday. He said his outdoor tour was VERY limited. You could not get off any of the paved or stone paths in the yard. I could not imagine NOT being able to roam free and take whatever photos and measurements I wanted from ground level. Has anyone else encountered this? Is this a new Museum policy? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:49:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Ron & List, You asked "Why remove the asbestos at all?" I may be wrong about this, but I think it's a legal issue, especially for a museum open to the public, and may well affect their non-profit tax exempt status if they don't do it. In addition, it may affect their insurance premiums - all they need is one person claiming "I breathed in a few particles of asbestos from locomotive number xxxx and I've had nothing but health problems since and my doctors say that's the cause . . . . " This asbestos/PCB issue may even be part of the problem in bringing exhibits inside, although I doubt it - I can't imagine they removed asbestos and PCB's from every locomotive inside the hall. Perish the thought that they (or any museum) might have to. How did we ever grow up and survive without all these laws to protect us from our own stupidity? And of course the other flaw in your reasoning here is that you're looking for reason and common sense when we're dealing with the law and lawyers (apologies to legislators & lawyers on the list!). Hopefully someone who knows more than I do can give us the real scoop here. Bill Bigler Big Flats tracModeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" To: "Bill Lane" ; "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg > List members > > I was in Strasburg on Monday the 18th of August. > While the outside exhibits were supposedly "open", > when one went out into the yard almost everything > appeared to be roped off. I asked the two staff > members who were sitting there where the M-1 was > located and was told that I could get a view of it by > standing on a caboose platform, but could not go > anywhere beyond the roped areas because of the > EPA/asbestos issue. Although they were nice, this was > disappointing. Also, noticed at least one locomotive > inside, evidently "restored", but the boiler jacket > had been stripped away and not replaced. Hope as one > other list member has suggested that this is not going > to be the fate of the other locomotives currently > being stripped of asbestos. > > And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing > the asbestos at all? I can already hear the cries of > anguish from those who want to protect the public from > every conceivable medical harm, but does anyone > seriously believe that one is going to acquire > asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed > steam locomotive boiler? I mean, after all, many of > us (and for that matter, our parents) grew up living > in houses with asbestos, worked in factories where > every pipe was asbestos wrapped, and even went to > schools where asbestos was present. Yet to the best > of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers > seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst > those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily > basis. I'm sorry, but I think that perhaps there is > some overconcern here, similar to those who are > appalled because someone is actually lighting a > cigarette 100 yards away at an outdoor football game. > > If I am wrong on this asbestos issue, I am ready to > stand corrected by fact. > > Thanks > > Ron Di Orio > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:49:49 -0400 Ron & List, You asked "Why remove the asbestos at all?" I may be wrong about this, but I think it's a legal issue, especially for a museum open to the public, and may well affect their non-profit tax exempt status if they don't do it. In addition, it may affect their insurance premiums - all they need is one person claiming "I breathed in a few particles of asbestos from locomotive number xxxx and I've had nothing but health problems since and my doctors say that's the cause . . . . " This asbestos/PCB issue may even be part of the problem in bringing exhibits inside, although I doubt it - I can't imagine they removed asbestos and PCB's from every locomotive inside the hall. Perish the thought that they (or any museum) might have to. How did we ever grow up and survive without all these laws to protect us from our own stupidity? And of course the other flaw in your reasoning here is that you're looking for reason and common sense when we're dealing with the law and lawyers (apologies to legislators & lawyers on the list!). Hopefully someone who knows more than I do can give us the real scoop here. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" To: "Bill Lane" ; "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg > List members > > I was in Strasburg on Monday the 18th of August. > While the outside exhibits were supposedly "open", > when one went out into the yard almost everything > appeared to be roped off. I asked the two staff > members who were sitting there where the M-1 was > located and was told that I could get a view of it by > standing on a caboose platform, but could not go > anywhere beyond the roped areas because of the > EPA/asbestos issue. Although they were nice, this was > disappointing. Also, noticed at least one locomotive > inside, evidently "restored", but the boiler jacket > had been stripped away and not replaced. Hope as one > other list member has suggested that this is not going > to be the fate of the other locomotives currently > being stripped of asbestos. > > And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing > the asbestos at all? I can already hear the cries of > anguish from those who want to protect the public from > every conceivable medical harm, but does anyone > seriously believe that one is going to acquire > asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed > steam locomotive boiler? I mean, after all, many of > us (and for that matter, our parents) grew up living > in houses with asbestos, worked in factories where > every pipe was asbestos wrapped, and even went to > schools where asbestos was present. Yet to the best > of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers > seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst > those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily > basis. I'm sorry, but I think that perhaps there is > some overconcern here, similar to those who are > appalled because someone is actually lighting a > cigarette 100 yards away at an outdoor football game. > > If I am wrong on this asbestos issue, I am ready to > stand corrected by fact. > > Thanks > > Ron Di Orio > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Walthers test scale car --0-624240883-1062101439=:2656 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I just found a Walthers PRR test scale car on ebay. Since it's painted tuscan I have to repaint it black. So I also need new decals. Are there decals available or do you have other suggestions? Thanks, Geoffreg PR --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-624240883-1062101439=:2656 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi,

I just found a Walthers PRR test scale car on ebay. Since it's painted tuscan I have to repaint it black. So I also need new decals.

Are there decals available or do you have other suggestions?

Thanks,

Geoffrey

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-624240883-1062101439=:2656-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] BLI T1!!! Lists, For those who have yet to see preproduction pics of the T1 from BLI, here is a sneak peek: http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/images/t1sample/t1locoside.jpg More can be seen on their website. Lookin good and well on the way......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI T1!!! Lists, You might want to check out the new M1b photos posted as well!......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s L- haPics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:29:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C36DAB.86C50580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just checked out the links to the photo's of Jacks tower. It appears to = be identical to several that were located on the Elmira Branch. Does = anyone make an HO kit of a similar structure?=20 Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C36DAB.86C50580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just checked out the links to the = photo's of Jacks=20 tower. It appears to be identical to several that were located on the = Elmira=20 Branch. Does anyone make an HO kit of a similar structure?
 
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS #6703
The Elmira Branch=20 1956-57
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C36DAB.86C50580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:31:03 -0500 Actually, asbestos left undisturbed is innocuous. I think its removal is more political than anything else. Obviously, it's a problem if you want to do boiler work, but these are dead locomotives. Maybe a problem arises when the lagging needs to be painted. -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:43 PM To: Bill Lane; PRR Talk; PRR Fax Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg List members I was in Strasburg on Monday the 18th of August. While the outside exhibits were supposedly "open", when one went out into the yard almost everything appeared to be roped off. I asked the two staff members who were sitting there where the M-1 was located and was told that I could get a view of it by standing on a caboose platform, but could not go anywhere beyond the roped areas because of the EPA/asbestos issue. Although they were nice, this was disappointing. Also, noticed at least one locomotive inside, evidently "restored", but the boiler jacket had been stripped away and not replaced. Hope as one other list member has suggested that this is not going to be the fate of the other locomotives currently being stripped of asbestos. And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing the asbestos at all? I can already hear the cries of anguish from those who want to protect the public from every conceivable medical harm, but does anyone seriously believe that one is going to acquire asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed steam locomotive boiler? I mean, after all, many of us (and for that matter, our parents) grew up living in houses with asbestos, worked in factories where every pipe was asbestos wrapped, and even went to schools where asbestos was present. Yet to the best of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily basis. I'm sorry, but I think that perhaps there is some overconcern here, similar to those who are appalled because someone is actually lighting a cigarette 100 yards away at an outdoor football game. If I am wrong on this asbestos issue, I am ready to stand corrected by fact. Thanks Ron Di Orio __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI T1!!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:13:31 -0400 The M1b looks good, but I was hoping for more separate detail above the running boards. The T1 looks outstanding. Much better than I expected. I have heard that it has a diecast body, but I don't know if this is true. I think the nose is plastic and the rest of the boiler is diecast. Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] OT: asbestos (was Museum at Strasburg) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:20:49 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Actually, asbestos left undisturbed is innocuous. I think its removal is > more political than anything else. > Statement 1 I agree with. Re statement 2 (Marvin, others in this thread have expressed similar thoughts) I hesitate to jump into this, but... I realize it is fun to blame the lawyers and government for everything, but go back quite a few years to Money magazine and their annual list of top 500 new growth businesses. At least 3 or 4 of the top dozen or so were asbestos removal firms. Neat marketing strategy for aspiring entrepreneurs: fear. Neat business strategy: get the government to mandate your customers buy the product. So we took the innocuous asbestos out of usually sealed environments and spread it around to do probably more harm. All led , not by lawyers (unless those entrepreneurs were so coincidently), not by government (who responded to lobbying), but by good ol' free enterprise businessmen. Lest anyone get their knickers in a twist over that statement, I am a retired true free enterprise businessman who did not get the government to pass laws to "persuade" my customers to buy my product. The residual is that after the big business of stirring up the asbestos in schools, we have straggler situations such as that of the lagging on old steam locomotive boilers. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:39:32 -0500 One of the problems associated with locomotives with stripped lagging is that some model manufacturers will base the diameter of the model locomotive on the locomotive without the lagging. Then the model looks funny. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Vinci [mailto:vinci4@net-link.net] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:48 AM To: John Frantz; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: Cadwell, Marvin L; billlane@comcast.net; jerry@pennsyrr.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Hi all, I visited the Museum on the 7th of this month and they did have the yard area significantly roped off BUT, since it wasn't crowded and they had a staff member to take us around, a nice fella took my wife and I pretty much all over the yard except for some specific areas. There are a couple of really dumb things (at least from my perspective) they have 4800 behind a fence and taped off with very limited access even to staff members because EPA is concerned about the presence of PCBs. They're even testing some of the ground to see if it's been "contaminated" with PCB. Also, money has been provided to strip the asbestos from the locomotives which involves removing the boiler jacket but they didn't provide any funds to put the engines back together! So the beloved L1 is sitting out in the weather with her jacket stripped off. This is the sort of thing that I really find annoying. Neither PCB or asbestos is instantly toxic but long term exposure is absolutely not good. I have a feeling that someone is terrified of some imaginary lawsuit. Of course, maybe there could be some flake who might do that. Anyway, the folks there were really nice especially after they found out I was a fan and knew what I was looking at. So if you go there, drop a little extra in the restoration donation box and let's get the locomotives put back together. Dave O=='=:: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg > Gents, > > I can tell you right now that they are very busy with > multiple projects at the museum. The yard sitcher an > ex-pp&l plymoth has recently been re-wired and is in > service. The Airbrake instruction car is being rebuilt > structurally, and any availible research is helping. As > Jerry noted steam engines are apart and they're undergoing > asbestos abatement. I will find out the full nature of > whats going on moinday night and will report. I have a > friend that is on the main restoration crew. They have > been moving things around the yard trying to get projects > worked on and done. > Thats all for now, > > John > > PS- On Marvins comment I would suggest either calling > ahead to let them know your are a train nut and would like > to inquire into a better tour of the yard, or maybe > mention something at the front desk. I can't garuntee > anything but it helps. I've done that before for a school > project and had an 'off-season' yard tour to get some > pictures of the M1. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:44:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Asbestos Ron Di Orio wrote; "And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing the asbestos at all? ... but does anyone seriously believe that one is going to acquire asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed steam locomotive boiler? ... Yet to the best of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily basis. " I am not a lawyer but a physician who specializes in pulmonary medicine and who has dealt with asbestos lung disease and cancers over the years. SO here goes: 1. Asbestos related lung disease and cancer is a real, deadly problem that affects thousands of folks many of whom who die a miserable death from this stuff. 2. Contact with asbestos is usually long term and intense-- like insulators, boiler laggers, shipyard workers, etc., but not always. There are many instances of wives getting disease from washing their asbestos workers clothing. I personally cared for a 45 year-old patient who died of malignant lung cancer whose exposure was for only 6 weeks during a summer job in a plant that made vinyl-asbestos floor tiles... That said, the chance of getting something from a locomotive boiler in a museum is nil to VISITORS but might be significant to EMPLOYEES who maintain these things. This is likely why the removal work is being done. 3. The problem is that asbestos was a recognized threat for many years and a known but ignored one for many more years. Medicine knew that the stuff was dangerous for over 25 years before the government finally made industry do something to protect workers ... and some employees still try to get around the law. This is why the government is rightly trying to protect us from the callous SOBs who didn't care about anything except their profits. 4. There is still no reliable substitute for asbestos for certain uses. Jim McDaniel, living in asbestos free Delmarva ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:44:57 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Asbestos Ron Di Orio wrote; "And now, an editorial comment. Why bother removing the asbestos at all? ... but does anyone seriously believe that one is going to acquire asbestos related cancer from merely viewing a jacketed steam locomotive boiler? ... Yet to the best of my knowledge, the cases of asbestos related cancers seem to have appeared for the most part only amongst those who actively worked with asbestos on a daily basis. " I am not a lawyer but a physician who specializes in pulmonary medicine and who has dealt with asbestos lung disease and cancers over the years. SO here goes: 1. Asbestos related lung disease and cancer is a real, deadly problem that affects thousands of folks many of whom who die a miserable death from this stuff. 2. Contact with asbestos is usually long term and intense-- like insulators, boiler laggers, shipyard workers, etc., but not always. There are many instances of wives getting disease from washing their asbestos workers clothing. I personally cared for a 45 year-old patient who died of malignant lung cancer whose exposure was for only 6 weeks during a summer job in a plant that made vinyl-asbestos floor tiles... That said, the chance of getting something from a locomotive boiler in a museum is nil to VISITORS but might be significant to EMPLOYEES who maintain these things. This is likely why the removal work is being done. 3. The problem is that asbestos was a recognized threat for many years and a known but ignored one for many more years. Medicine knew that the stuff was dangerous for over 25 years before the government finally made industry do something to protect workers ... and some employees still try to get around the law. This is why the government is rightly trying to protect us from the callous SOBs who didn't care about anything except their profits. 4. There is still no reliable substitute for asbestos for certain uses. Jim McDaniel, living in asbestos free Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] Excursion Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:55:10 -0400 List, Please relist info pertaining to up coming excursion in October. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:11:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Excursion From: Jerry Britton On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 08:55 AM, Charlie wrote: > > Please relist info pertaining to up coming excursion in October. > Thanks The Timetable of Keystone Crossings lists all upcoming events... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d You can retrieve previous list posts from the archive at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Art Griffin decals Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:24:38 -0400 List, I pulled up Art Griffin's list of early 20th century freight car decals. Has anyone dealt with him? How are the decals? I am in N scale and I see several decals for cars I have been dying to do for years, like Sand Springs and Ma & Pa boxcars, even LIRR! Thanks in advance. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FW: Train Stations of Pennsylvania Those of you who read my earlier message to Jerry Sawyer, Producer of the Penn State TV production "Train Stations of Pennsylvania," in which I expressed disappointment that the Lewistown station was not included, read on. I received an nice reply from him and I replied back. Both messages are shown below in chronological (not time) sequence.. Al ================================================ -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Sawyer [mailto:jvs3@psu.edu] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 7:32 AM To: Al Buchan Subject: Re: Train Stations of Pennsylvania Hi Al -- Thanks for your note. I did seriously consider the Lewistown station, but at the time we were in production, the station was in a bit of disarray. I especially wanted to glean some stories from the PRR files that were to be in storage there, but the contacts I had at the time said that the files were there, but they hadn't been sorted, cataloged or arranged in any way yet, so searching them would be a massive task. I also wanted to do that station because it's in our own coverage area, but it just didn't work out for us. So many stations, so little time. And, yes, it is my hope that by seeing the program, other communities or individuals might be prompted to save more stations. But from the stories we got, it's quite an undertaking, and it appears there aren't many people willing to put that kind of effort into it. Have a great Holiday weekend! -- Jerry A. Sawyer Producer/Director, WPSX-TV 814-865-3333 "...the grand thing is to be able to reason backwards." S. Holmes (A.C. Doyle) ================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:45 AM To: 'Jerry Sawyer' Subject: RE: Train Stations of Pennsylvania Jerry, Thank you for your reply. What you heard about the tremendous amount of information that we have stored in our station archive is correct. However, we are diligently working towards getting everything cataloged and properly stored. It's a massive undertaking but under the guidance of some very dedicated people we are making good progress and at some time in the future we will be open for researchers. I don't know when you your were in production, but I find your comment that the station "was in a bit of disarray" a concern as it has been restored to it's present, rather pristine condition, for several years now. Perhaps at some point, you might consider producing another railroading theme show, in which you could include not only the station but also more about the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, we have over 3000 members worldwide, have several very active chapters and hold our annual meeting usually during the first weekend in May. The 2004 meeting will be held in Cincinnati, the 2005 meeting will be in Camp Hill. If you need any further information about the Society or the station please don't hesitate to contact me. Al Buchan President PRRT&HS 785 Cornwallis Drive Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054-3209 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:57:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Merchandise Service" Cars in Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton This subject was touched on a while back, but not in depth. It's come up again on the Society's discussion forum. There were some rare instances where "Merchandise Service" cars were seen on passenger trains. One video that I have -- forget which one, off hand -- shows a north/west bound train entering Harrisburg with a "Merchandise Service" car near the front. This train enters from the CV bridge, so it would have come up the Northern Central. The class of car cannot be determined due to the distance from the camera. Were there some "MS" cars equipped with steam lines for use in passenger service, or (due to the time of year) might they have run a second/third class train without through steam connections? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:58:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Next Walthers PRR Passenger Car? From: Jerry Britton The next expected PRR passenger car from Walthers is the 10-5, due shortly. Anyone know what might be in the pipeline after that, and in what paint scheme? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Asbestos Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:51:17 -0400 Jim McDaniel wrote: > 4. There is still no reliable substitute for asbestos for certain uses.> I thought Kevlar worked in virtually all applications, from my many years experience in the glass industry. ?? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P-70FAR trucks Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:15:13 -0400 Fellow listers, I purchased an Eastern Car Works P-70FAR and have discovered that it does not receive the included 2E-P5 trucks, but should receive 2D-P12 trucks (or possibly 2D-P5). Is there a source for either of these models? Geeze the things we start to notice when we follow a specific road. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edward D. Thornton" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:48:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C36E4D.5BC944C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For your info. E.T. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dunn, David=20 To: 'edthorn@bellatlantic.net'=20 Sent: Friday, 29 August, 2003 09:04 Subject: FW: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg =20 Ed: We are restricting access to the yard at this point except by guided = tour under orders from the EPA until some soil samples can be taken. We = had hoped this process would be a few weeks, but it has turned into = nearly a year and a half for them to approve a methodology and a = contractor for testing for chemical contamination related to the = transformers in several pieces in the Museum's collection. They = consider the transformers "railroad" transformers and subject to = regulation even though they have not been powered up for more than 20 = years. We are not happy with the situation and it will return to normal as = soon as we get clearance from the EPA. We had just finished laying the = new yard track and the stone paths when the order came down in April = 2002. =20 David Dunn Director ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C36E4D.5BC944C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For your info.
       =20         E.T.
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dunn, = David
Sent: Friday, 29 August, 2003 09:04
Subject: FW: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg
 

Ed:

    We are = restricting=20 access to the yard at this point except by guided tour under orders from = the EPA=20 until some soil samples can be taken. =20 We had hoped this process would be a few weeks, but it has turned = into=20 nearly a year and a half for them to approve a methodology and a = contractor for=20 testing for chemical contamination related to the transformers in = several pieces=20 in the Museum=92s collection.  = They=20 consider the transformers =93railroad=94 transformers and subject to = regulation even=20 though they have not been powered up for more than 20=20 years.

    We are not = happy with=20 the situation and it will retur'=20 normal as soon as we get clearance = from the=20 EPA.  We had just finished = laying=20 the new yard track and the stone paths when the order came down in April = 2002.

 

David = Dunn

Director

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C36E4D.5BC944C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WaynesTrains@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:17:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Asbestos --part1_1e7.f2a72d3.2c812b05_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Group: I have been following the thread on asbestos on the locomotives at the museum. It is my understanding that over time asbestos will absorb and hold moisture. If this is correct, then the moisture will cause the jacket and the boiler steel to rust. Perhaps that is why the asbestos is being removed. Remember that these locomotive never get hot to dry out. Wayne in Altoona --part1_1e7.f2a72d3.2c812b05_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Group:
I have been following the thread on asbestos on the locomotives at the museu= m. It is my understanding that over time asbestos will absorb and hold moist= ure. If this is correct, then the moisture will cause the jacket and the boi= ler steel to rust. Perhaps that is why the asbestos is being removed. Rememb= er that these locomotive never get hot to dry out.
Wayne in Altoona --part1_1e7.f2a72d3.2c812b05_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:51:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Asbestos Jim McDaniel wrote: > 4. There is still no reliable substitute for asbestos for certain uses.> I thought Kevlar worked in virtually all applications, from my many years experience in the glass industry. ?? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Merchandise Service" Cars in Passenger Trains Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:06:32 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" > Were there some "MS" cars equipped with steam lines for use in > passenger service, or (due to the time of year) might they have run a > second/third class train without through steam connections? Jerry, I don't know. However, this gets back to a question of mine about a year ago on the shot of the Erie-Built in PPII pulling "Train 14" as I recall. The headend consists of container FMs and what looks like some 50 or 60 foot Merchandise boxes. In the distance in the consist appear to be B60, etc. I was advised that there was a stretch of this train's journey where there were no coaches listed in the consist and thus no need for steam lines, I guess. Is a puzzlement in any case. So I guess I am adding to your question on MS cars with steam lines a question about the container FMs having steam lines or not. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:58:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] "Merchandise Service" Cars in Passenger Trains --- Bob Zoeller wrote: > So I guess I am adding to > your question on MS cars with steam lines a question about the > container FMs having steam lines or not. There was also another class of flat car fitted for containers, F31 perhaps? I recall seeing one of them now and again in mail/express trains. Sice there was a coach or steam line fitted caboose on those trains, I've wondered if the flatcars had steam lines. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P70-FAR Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:40:55 -0400 Gentlemen, Two questions concerning the above model: 1) the floor and one side are slightly warped, what is the safest or surest method of straightening these long pieces? 2) Where may I find underbody equirment placement drawings? I possess both "Passanger Equipment of the PRR: Coaches (Liljestrand & Sweetland) and "Pennsy HW Passanger (NJ International) but neither have the info I desire? Thanks in advance Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:53:08 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Prusick" > 1) the floor and one side are slightly warped, what is the safest or surest > method of straightening these long pieces? Depending on how badly they are warped, I use either styrene or brass structural shapes (I-beams or square sections) to back them up. For closed resin kits like Sunshine's I use the square shapes in the corners to keep things square. One limitation is the extent to which you are modeling the interior, though you can sometimes still work around that. You can get by with smaller cross section shapes in brass for a given stiffness, but it is advisable to keep them mounted low for center of gravity purposes. The brass does add some weight if you need it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70-FAR Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:18:04 -0400 Re: Using brass stiffeners inside passenger cars to correct warping. Try brass angle in the luggage rack area above the window to simulate that feature and solid square where the side joins the floor to simulate the heating duct. Of course this lower one may interfere with seat placement depending on what type seats your using. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:45:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Talasco Subject: [PRR] colors I am new to the list, and have what may seem a pretty silly question: What colors were 1930's heavyweight era PRR Passenger cars painted? The various color photos in the PRR color guides are a chocolate-like red-brown (and were taken in the 1950's-60's, not the 1930's), but the 'Tuscan' paints I have seen in hobby shops just do not seem correct to me. I have seen references to a 'Pullman Red'.... is this the color I should be shooting for? Does anyone have a suggestion for a readily available paint (non-acrylic)color to use? Thanks!! Fred ===== Fred Talasco "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." Wernher von Braun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:18:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Museum --part1_95.31e9efec.2c82285d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I, too, visited the RR Museum of PA a few weeks ago. There were several volunteers waiting just outside the door who escorted us just about anywhere we wanted to go in the yard. We did encounter the "hazardous" PCB and asbestos area's. To that end, I'd say don't come down on the Museum folks about that. It's either State or Federal or both requirements and as ridiculous as they may seem, the Museum could get into big trouble if they didn't comply. I would also echo the suggestions about calling ahead especially if you're on a research (sketching, photo's, measuring, etc) mission. Bob Martin --part1_95.31e9efec.2c82285d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I, too, visited the RR Mu= seum of PA a few weeks ago.  There were several volunteers waiting just= outside the door who escorted us just about anywhere we wanted to go in the= yard.  We did encounter the "hazardous" PCB and asbestos area's.  = ;To that end, I'd say don't come down on the Museum folks about that.  = It's either State or Federal or both requirements and as ridiculous as they=20= may seem, the Museum could get into big trouble if they didn't comply.=20

I would also echo the suggestions about calling ahead especially if you'= re on a research (sketching, photo's, measuring, etc) mission.  

Bob Martin --part1_95.31e9efec.2c82285d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:38:50 -0400 From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg > > We are restricting access to the yard at this point except by > guided tour under orders from the EPA until some soil samples can be > taken.We had hoped this process would be a few weeks, but it has > turned into nearly a year and a half for them to approve a methodology > and a contractor for testing for chemical contamination related to the > transformers in several pieces in the Museum’s collection.They > consider the transformers “railroad” transformers and subject to > regulation even though they have not been powered up for more than 20 > years. > > > I thought all the surviving GG-1's had their transformers either removed or drained? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:57:47 -0400 From: Phil Ballhey prrdepot@cablespeed.com> Subject: Re: [PRR] P70-FAR Walt You've got the two best sources I've been able to find. The underbody details which come with the kits are not appropriate for an FAR - they're actually closer to the FBR, but still off a bit. BTW Precision Scale makes a "PRR Passenger Car" underframe kit that's got alot of good parts that may be better for a P70R - check their catalog too. Bethlehem Car Works also has a good selection of PRR oriented parts in their Kitbits line. If you happen upon any good info, pls let me know - I'm looking for that one elusive source of all knowledge on this.... Regards Phil Balles Walter Prusick wrote: >Gentlemen, >Two questions concerning the above model: >1) the floor and one side are slightly warped, what is the safest or surest >method of straightening these long pieces? >2) Where may I find underbody equirment placement drawings? I possess both >"Passanger Equipment of the PRR: Coaches (Liljestrand & Sweetland) and >"Pennsy HW Passanger (NJ International) but neither have the info I desire? > >Thanks in advance >Walt Prusick > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edward D. Thornton" Subject: Res I : [PRR] Museum at Strasburg Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:35:50 -0400 Charles, I'm going to try to delve into my often faulty memory to give an answer. Zimmerman's "Remarkable GG1" or the FOGG Committee's book (Abendschein, Murray, etc.) would be better sources. GG1 4800, then the property of Conrail, was conveyed to FOGG "fully operational". That means there was a fantasy that it would run again some day under wire. Remember that other motors and MU's were already in the Museum's collection (B1?, MP54). I am not sure if GG1 4935 still has its transformer. There was a date when we started to remove the transformers. I was on the road for most of the 1980's so can't tell you which G's did or didn't get the treatment. We did remove the transformer and related equipment from the Museum's E44. Now, about getting 4800 under wire again......... ;-} Ed Thornton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Museum at Strasburg > > > > We are restricting access to the yard at this point except by > > guided tour under orders from the EPA until some soil samples can be > > taken.We had hoped this process would be a few weeks, but it has > > turned into nearly a year and a half for them to approve a methodology > > and a contractor for testing for chemical contamination related to the > > transformers in several pieces in the Museum's collection.They > > consider the transformers "railroad" transformers and subject to > > regulation even though they have not been powered up for more than 20 > > years. > > > > I thought all the surviving GG-1's had their transformers either removed > or drained? > Charles Ring ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:52:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Warped car sides and floors --part1_11.18117166.2c8373b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A method I have found useful is to attach the brass angles along the bottom of the sides so that the underbody floor fits up against them then place a piece of brass sheet between and flush with the top of these angles to make a new floor for adding interior details to. Where the details would be next to the walls, the details are only attached to the center strip and not the angles so the floor stays removable. The floor is attached from the bottom with tiny self-tapping screws. This method is handy in adding weight to the non-metal cars. Also, think of the brass angles as conductors for car lighting circuits. A brass angle along the tops of the walls reinforces the walls plus provides a handy place to solder light leads to. I drill small holes about the width of the wire back from the edge of the angle to receive the wire for soldering. Using the hole method vs. soldering the wire flat on to the angle takes less heat. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_11.18117166.2c8373b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   A method I have found useful is to attach the b= rass angles along the bottom of the sides so that the underbody floor fits u= p against them then place a piece of brass sheet between and flush with the=20= top of these angles to make a new floor for adding interior details to. = ; Where the details would be next to the walls, the details are only attache= d to the center strip and not the angles so the floor stays removable. = The floor is attached from the bottom with tiny self-tapping screws.

  This method is handy in adding weight to the non-metal cars.  Al= so,  think of the brass angles as conductors for car lighting circuits.=   A brass angle along the tops of the walls reinforces the walls plus p= rovides a handy place to solder light leads to.  I drill small holes ab= out the width of the wire back from the edge of the angle to receive the wir= e for soldering.  Using the hole method vs. soldering the wire flat on=20= to the angle takes less heat.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_11.18117166.2c8373b6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Sunset O Scale K4 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:18:07 -0400

Sunset is introducing the first locomotive in their High Iron series. This series will be less expensive because they are making more of them which brings down cost. The first locomotive in this series is the K4 in both pre and post war configurations. The cost looks to be about $600 without sound and $750 with sound. Both 3 and 2 rail version offered.  Sunset has posted a pre-production picture on the Ogaugerr message board. Hopefully this link will work:
 
I would like some opinions on this engine's appearance before I decide whether to order one or not.  Sunset's HO scale K4 was horrible, hopefully this will be a different story. If it is as nice as their other O scale stuff, then it is a bargain.
Eric
 
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:12:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports in N Scale? From: Jerry @ Pennsy Everyone's been talking about the "early EMD" locomotive rumored in the "N Sights" column in the new September/October issue of "N Scale" magazine. But nobody has mentioned what is on page 85... "Broadway Limited, a company that has been producing some excellent steam and electric locomotives in HO, has been looking at N scale, but nothing is coming together just yet. Before the move is made their electronics need to be miniaturized, and that's an expensive proposition when it includes new intricate circuits. The company is thinking about it, however, so it seems likely they will be coming into N scale." Gang, this is major! Put me down for one of each road number they do in PRR! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:05:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mopac on the PRR --part1_16b.23478cc6.2c83d922_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another interesting car is partially shown on page 16 of the Morning Sun book, PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment. This heavyweight baggage car appears to at one time have been a dining car. Note the much lighter belt rail at the bottom of what was once the window strip. The window panel area was light gray and the rail appears to be this aluminum color being discussion. From several photos in books, the vote here is for aluminum paint and not aluminum metal trim. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_16b.23478cc6.2c83d922_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Another interesting  car is partially show= n on page 16 of the Morning Sun book, PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passeng= er Equipment. This heavyweight baggage car appears to at one time have been=20= a dining car.  Note the much lighter belt rail at the bottom of what wa= s once the window strip.  The window panel area was light gray and the=20= rail appears to be this aluminum color being discussion.

  From several photos in books, the vote here is for aluminum paint and= not aluminum metal trim.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_16b.23478cc6.2c83d922_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:36:18 GMT Subject: [PRR] The Merchndise Service Cars From: Dominic Mazoch According to pictures I have seen in the CYC, the MS cars had no steam lines. But, if a train was a pure RPO/REA train, there would not a "problem" in using the car as long as the train did not go higher seed than the rucks would allow. They were pretty cars. I thought they were at first head end cars for passenger service untill I learned otherwise! Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Jacks tower Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:51:28 -0400 Mike, If you can find them, and are up to the challenge, Quality Craft makes a wood kit similar to the Jacks tower design in HO. I believe the correct term is a 8 to 20 lever interlocking cabin, i think. I don't know of any others off hand. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Mike wrote: Just checked out the links to the photo's of Jacks tower. It appears to be identical to several that were located on the Elmira Branch. Does anyone make an HO kit of a similar structure? Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] NKP Baggage on PRR Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:22:40 -0400 Gents, As I continue to go through this slide collection i found a photo that really intriques me. It's dated May 5th, 1967. A picture of some of the cars of a westbound frieght train going through Altoona. Close to the end of the train, but coupled on both side to a frieght car is an NKP class MP baggage car. It appears to be empty, as the door are partly open. It isn't white-lined and I don't know anything else besides what i told you. Does anybody have a notion as to why there would be an NKP Baggage in the middle of a frieght train? Any thought, or comments would be appreciated. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!