Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:17:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE - Keystone Crossings CD's, Broadway Limited Imports From: Jerry Britton First of the month For Sale... In conjunction with the PRRT&HS convention, Merchandise Service is offering its CD's at 20% off. This includes "Volume Four: The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954", which contains 60 historical documents from the Pennsy. It's now only $80. http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_sale.html The deadline -- set by Broadway Limited Imports -- for guaranteed of HO scale GG-1 locos this summer was April 30. However, Merchandise Service contacted them about the fact that this deadline was the day before the PRRT&HS convention. Merchandise Service has secured a four day extension for guaranteed sales! So if you didn't order yet, you can still order through Merchandise Service online or at the convention, through Sunday, and still be guaranteed delivery. http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html Thank you, and hope to see many of you at the convention! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:23:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] How far east did those T1s roam?? From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3134615019_5197750 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/30/03 9:58 PM, "Chrisandbelton2@aol.com" wrote: > Did any make as far east as Philadelphia or were they all turned back at > Harrisburg? >=20 >=20 I honestly don=B9t know. However, the T=B9s were obviously passenger service. And passenger service ha= d electric locos through the entire life of the T=B9s. Electric ended at Harrisburg. I doubt there was any reason for a T to run any further east than Harrisburg. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3134615019_5197750 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] How far east did those T1s roam?? On 4/30/03 9:58 PM, "Chrisandbelton2@aol.com"= ; <Chrisandbelton2@aol.com> wrote:

Did any make as far ea= st as Philadelphia or were they all turned back at Harrisburg?


I honestly don’t know.

However, the T’s were obviously passenger service. And passenger serv= ice had electric locos through the entire life of the T’s. Electric en= ded at Harrisburg. I doubt there was any reason for a T to run any further e= ast than Harrisburg.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3134615019_5197750-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:24:04 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > > On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 08:36 PM, Bill wrote: > > > Advice for all those attending: the Wawa convenience store chain has > > the best coffee around. Their ice cream is also first rate since they > > started out as a dairy farm. At the intersection of Rt. 420 and > > MacDade > > Blvd (10~15 minutes away from the Convention site), there is a great > > fast food place called Nifty Fifty's. They make all their own food > > daily; sirloin burgers, fries, fantastic shakes, and 87 flavors of > > sodas > > (pop). > > > All that and no mention of Philly cheesesteaks? ;-) Ahhh, cheesesteaks (as Homer Simpson would say)! Cheesesteaks are a purely subjective matter (do you like your roll crunchy or soft; do you want cheese whiz [ugh] or provolone, etc.). Probably the best place for cheesesteaks is Tony Luke's which is located at 2nd and Oregon in South Philly, almost directly under I-95. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please! Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:34:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C30FBC.77C05EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is my understanding that the $15.00 charge is for the bus transfer to = and from Juniata. Admittance will be limited to those who arrive on the = buses. If you come by car you will not gain access. Bennett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: mittner@webtv.net ; jerry@pennsyrr.com=20 Cc: v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please! I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday morning. I have a = place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Tour for Friday = morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing transfers = between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make = their own way there. The answer will affect my ETA in Essington... Chris Baker #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C30FBC.77C05EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is my understanding that the $15.00 = charge is=20 for the bus transfer to and from Juniata. Admittance will be limited to = those=20 who arrive on the buses. If you come by car you will not gain=20 access.
 
 
Bennett
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
To: mittner@webtv.net ; jerry@pennsyrr.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 = 9:56=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Help = Please!

I am planning to arrive at the convention on = Friday=20 morning.  I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata = Terminal=20 Tour for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be = providing=20 transfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected = to make=20 their own way there.  The answer will affect my ETA in=20 Essington...

Chris Baker  #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C30FBC.77C05EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] last year for diesels. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:35:36 -0400 52 F3s, including some that were JUST overhauled at Juniata were traded to EMD in 1962 for the GP-30s, by the number, starting with 9500A&B. There is a shot (mine) in one of the Pennsy Diesel Years volumes of, I believe 9519A sitting at Enola, just out of the paint shop and headed to La Grange in a few weeks hence, as proof of this. Made no sense at the time when there were basket cases sitting around E. Altoona, but sanity did not prevail until the GP-35 trade-ins were decided upon using the junkers at hand. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of jconsoli Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:17 PM To: Jeff Warner; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] last year for diesels. Jeff, Very few F3's were "upgraded" to F7's and veen then that depends on what your definition is of "upgraded". None were renumbered because of this. Only those that survived to the general fleet renumbering of 1966 were renumbered. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Warner To: PRR-Talk Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:30 PM Subject: [PRR] last year for diesels. > Hello all: > I was hoping somebody could tell me the LAST year that C-liners, > Erie-Builts, and RS-12's could be found running before being > traded-in/scrapped. > > Also, were all the F3's updated to F7's? Did they keep the same road > numbers? > > Thanks, > > Jeff Warner > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 08:53:59 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Help Please! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_u+R9zHdHA0BnelUOqgvy3w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bennett's interpretation is absolutely correct. People cannot drive anywhere, they MUST take the bus. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bennett Levin Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:34 AM To: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com; mittner@webtv.net; jerry@pennsyrr.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please! It is my understanding that the $15.00 charge is for the bus transfer to and from Juniata. Admittance will be limited to those who arrive on the buses. If you come by car you will not gain access. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com To: mittner@webtv.net ; jerry@pennsyrr.com Cc: v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please! I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday morning. I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Tour for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing transfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make their own way there. The answer will affect my ETA in Essington... Chris Baker #1918 --Boundary_(ID_u+R9zHdHA0BnelUOqgvy3w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Bennett's interpretation is absolutely correct. People cannot drive anywhere, they MUST take the bus.
 
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bennett Levin
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:34 AM
To: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com; mittner@webtv.net; jerry@pennsyrr.com
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please!

It is my understanding that the $15.00 charge is for the bus transfer to and from Juniata. Admittance will be limited to those who arrive on the buses. If you come by car you will not gain access.
 
 
Bennett
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please!

I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday morning.  I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Tour for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing transfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make their own way there.  The answer will affect my ETA in Essington...

Chris Baker  #1918
--Boundary_(ID_u+R9zHdHA0BnelUOqgvy3w)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:19:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Help Please! On Thu, 1 May 2003, Al Buchan wrote: > Bennett's interpretation is absolutely correct. People cannot drive > anywhere, they MUST take the bus. Sort of unfortunate, as for the last hour I've been sitting at milepost 155.7 on the PA Turnpike; I think I'm going to miss Wilmington. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:47:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR) Morning! Yesterday Jerry pointed out that trains 58/59 were the Admiral (IIRC). What I MEANT to say was trains MD-58/MD-59, which were the Wawa to Perryville and Perryville to Wawa Mushroom Trains....These would be pretty easy to model as the train was usually pulled by a G5 or E5sd and consited of two PB70 cars or a baggage car (B60B) and PB70, and as many R50B reefers as needed. The other train I mentioned was 668/669, the Fredrick RPO train. Typical power from Lancaster was an H9s equipped for passenger service, with an R50B, B60B, Baggage RPO (looks like a 15' RPO) and P70. During WWII the P70 was replaced with a P78B "coach" converted from an X32A boxcar. Does anyone offer a model of a BM class car in HO? I have an M70B, but a full RPO is too much for this service!!! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:14:04 -0500 Bruce, Precision Scale Co. had at least the BM-70KA available in brass several years ago. I believe that they offered several variations of the BM-70XX. The one I have has the two baggage doors per side. I believe that JC Models also produced a model with the aluminum sides, cast ends and wood floor and roof. I do not know of any models in plastic. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR) Dennis, Bruce, NJ Custom Brass also made the BM-70ka. I have one of those but suspect the Precision Scale to be a much better replica. Bruce, Didn't that Mushroom Train include 1 of the 4 PBM70's? This car was also available in HO from NJ Custom Brass. It is rather hard to find. It was part of a 2 car (P70-PBM70) set. I found a break up set and obtained the PBM70. ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:35:59 -0500 IIRC, the Custom Brass baggage/mail cars had the older rectangular windows in the doors. To me, the round windows in the PSC and JC cars "scream" Pennsy. I know, it depends on era..... Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) To: dennis@onerrave.com (Dennis @ D & S Hobbies) Sent: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR) > Dennis, Bruce, > > NJ Custom Brass also made the BM-70ka. I have one of those but > suspect the Precision Scale to be a much better replica. > > Bruce, Didn't that Mushroom Train include 1 of the 4 PBM70's? This > car was also available in HO from NJ Custom Brass. It is rather hard > to find. It was part of a 2 car (P70-PBM70) set. I found a break up > set and obtained the PBM70. ....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR) Dennis, The CB BM70ka has the Porthole windows as well. The PBM70(a) has the Rectangular windows. Not sure if that car was ever updated with Portholes or not. You are correct, something about those portholes makes it look more Pennsy...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] Western Region Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:38:49 +0000 Lee and group; >While in college in Wooster and visit with railroaders there and >watch the >helpers run light downgrade. An engineer who usually worked >the turnaround >local out of Wooster told me the grade was the worst >grade between X and Y >-- where X and >Y are cities whose names I have >completely forgotten, but >which at the time >seemed quite distant. I don't have an ETT in front of me but I am reasonably certain that Wooster Hill was the ruling eastward grade between Crestline and Conway, 0.88%, I think. Maybe your engineer friend was thinking of the sag out of Mace up to Reedurban or the long climb up Garfield Hill, which starts in Canton, levels off a bit through Alliance then picks up again just east of the Alliance westward home signal. Although the sight and sound of eastbounds dragging and squealing around the curves on Wooster Hill was (and probably still is) a wonderful thing, I have good memories of watching/shooting/chasing underpowered heavy Conrail eastbounds struggling towards Garfield with pushers (Alco's, geeps and GP38s in the early CR era, GP38-2s in the later CR years) past Fairhope and Sebring. Steve Hipes Columbus, OH _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: [PRR] 'For Sale' first of the month etc; Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:15:38 +0100 List, With all this talk of ' Florida Trains' hosted by PRR between NY and Washington I would like to offer for sale an Atlantic Coast Line January 1935 timetable. Open to offers!! Buyer pays for all shipping costs airmail from the UK. Its in very good condition with some damage to the rear, it looks like it may have been mounted in an album at some time. May I wish you all a great Convention and of course I wish I were there with you!!!!!! Please e-mail me off list if you wish to know more about the timetable. Kind regards James Bristol, England. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:29:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] eastern OH grades From: Frederick Ripley Steve H. wrote: I don't have an ETT in front of me but I am reasonably certain that Wooster Hill was the ruling eastward grade between Crestline and Conway, 0.88%, I think. Maybe your engineer friend was thinking of the sag out of Mace up to Reedurban or the long climb up Garfield Hill, which starts in Canton, levels off a bit through Alliance then picks up again just east of the Alliance westward home signal. Although the sight and sound of eastbounds dragging and squealing around the curves on Wooster Hill was (and probably still is) a wonderful thing, I have good memories of watching/shooting/chasing underpowered heavy Conrail eastbounds struggling towards Garfield with pushers (Alco's, geeps and GP38s in the early CR era, GP38-2s in the later CR years) past Fairhope and Sebring. ------ I have also enjoyed watching/photographing trains on both these grades. The neat thing about the latter (Garfield) is that in later CR days it was is was much busier than Wooster Hill (there is even a bigger disparity in traffic today between the two), due to Chicago traffic joining at Alliance. In the late 80's/early-mid 90's, many of the bigger EB's from Crestline would leave pushers on all the way to Conway, to help on both these grades. It seems to me that the crest of Garfield hill was east of Garfield, just to the west of the signal bridge at MP 73.5 (west of Salem). Looking west at this location, you could see the "summit", and big EB's were often really working, down to 25mph or so. New crossovers were installed at this location in 1994, which meant the end of the PRR signals. Shortly thereafter, the entire line received cab signals from Alliance to Conway. Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:47:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How far east did those T1s roam?? --part1_d.f9e6aba.2be32833_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of the east-west trains that originated at Philadelphia Broad Street Station were steam or diesel right out of Philly -- no electric motors in use. While I doubt any of those trains would rate a T1 I am trying to justify my recent order of the BLI T1 for a model railroad that is planted firmly east of the Susquehanna River! LOL Chris B #1918 --part1_d.f9e6aba.2be32833_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of the east-west trains that originated at Philad= elphia Broad Street Station were steam or diesel right out of Philly -- no e= lectric motors in use.  While I doubt any of those trains would rate a=20= T1 I am trying to justify my recent order of the BLI T1 for a model railroad= that is planted firmly east of the Susquehanna River!  LOL

Chris B  #1918 --part1_d.f9e6aba.2be32833_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:01:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] BM70nb kitbash Bruce, list, If you'd like to kitbash in HO scale, check the November 1995 RMC, pages 86+. It has an article about kibashing a BM70nb from the Rivarossi "1930 RPO." I've built one BM70nb using this article, and am working (slowly) on another. Only problem for you is that the BM70nb isn't appropriate for the 1944 timeframe I think you're interested in; they were converted beginning in the early 50s. Doug --- Bruce F Smith wrote: > Morning! > > Yesterday Jerry pointed out that trains 58/59 were > the Admiral (IIRC). > What I MEANT to say was trains MD-58/MD-59, which > were the Wawa to > Perryville and Perryville to Wawa Mushroom > Trains....These would be pretty > easy to model as the train was usually pulled by a > G5 or E5sd and > consited of two PB70 cars or a baggage car (B60B) > and PB70, and as many > R50B reefers as needed. > > The other train I mentioned was 668/669, the > Fredrick RPO train. Typical > power from Lancaster was an H9s equipped for > passenger service, with an > R50B, B60B, Baggage RPO (looks like a 15' RPO) and > P70. During WWII the > P70 was replaced with a P78B "coach" converted from > an X32A boxcar. > > Does anyone offer a model of a BM class car in HO? > I have an M70B, but a > full RPO is too much for this service!!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 10:44:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FOM (once more) Does anyone know the year the PRR abandoned the FOM scheme? A question has arisen on the Passenger Car list. It is claimed that the ACL painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind. I thought FOM was dead by then. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 10:44:29 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] FOM (once more) Does anyone know the year the PRR abandoned the FOM scheme? A question has arisen on the Passenger Car list. It is claimed that the ACL painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind. I thought FOM was dead by then. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] FOM (once more) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:58:14 -0400 Andrew, I was alweays under the impression that the Fleet of Modernism scheme was only used during the same period that the use of Futura rather than Craw Clarendon lettering was used, i.e. 1938-1941. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "PRR FAX" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 10:44 AM Subject: [PRR] FOM (once more) > Does anyone know the year the PRR abandoned the FOM scheme? A question > has arisen on the Passenger Car list. It is claimed that the ACL > painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind. I > thought FOM was dead by then. > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:43:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] No FOM at Louisville post-WW2 --part1_64.2fa0c22d.2be52f9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/03 1:12:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Does anyone know the year the PRR abandoned the FOM scheme? A question > has arisen on the Passenger Car list. It is claimed that the ACL > painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind. I > thought FOM was dead by then. > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > I have been collecting local (Louisville) railfans' pictures of the South Wind and other trains at Louisville Union Station, toward an article. The color goes back to 1950 and the black-and-white almost back to WW2. I've seen no evidence of FOM on any passenger equipment in that period at our location. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_64.2fa0c22d.2be52f9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/3/03 1:= 12:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Does anyone know the year the P= RR abandoned the FOM scheme?   A question
has arisen on the Passenger Car list.  It is claimed that the ACL
painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind.  I thought FOM was dead by then.
--
Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


I have been collecting local (Louisville) railfans' pictures of the South Wi= nd and other trains at Louisville Union Station, toward an article.  Th= e color goes back to 1950 and the black-and-white almost back to WW2. =20= I've seen no evidence of FOM on any passenger equipment in that period at ou= r location.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_64.2fa0c22d.2be52f9c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:00:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: western ohio grades Re: [PRR] eastern OH grades --0-2009903856-1051992044=:90708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Frederick Ripley wrote:Steve H. wrote: I don't have an ETT in front of me but I am reasonably certain that Wooster Hill was the ruling eastward grade between Crestline and Conway, 0.88%, I think. Maybe your engineer friend was thinking of the sag out of Mace up to Reedurban or the long climb up Garfield Hill, which starts in Canton, levels off a bit through Alliance then picks up again just east of the Alliance westward home signal. Although the sight and sound of eastbounds dragging and squealing around the curves on Wooster Hill was (and probably still is) a wonderful thing, I have good memories of watching/shooting/chasing underpowered heavy Conrail eastbounds struggling towards Garfield with pushers (Alco's, geeps and GP38s in the early CR era, GP38-2s in the later CR years) past Fairhope and Sebring. ------ I have also enjoyed watching/photographing trains on both these grades. The neat thing about the latter (Garfield) is that in later CR days it was is was much busier than Wooster Hill (there is even a bigger disparity in traffic today between the two), due to Chicago traffic joining at Alliance. In the late 80's/early-mid 90's, many of the bigger EB's from Crestline would leave pushers on all the way to Conway, to help on both these grades. It seems to me that the crest of Garfield hill was east of Garfield, just to the west of the signal bridge at MP 73.5 (west of Salem). Looking west at this location, you could see the "summit", and big EB's were often really working, down to 25mph or so. New crossovers were installed at this location in 1994, which meant the end of the PRR signals. Shortly thereafter, the entire line received cab signals from Alliance to Conway. Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-2009903856-1051992044=:90708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Frederick Ripley <fjr@mchsi.com> wrote:
Steve H. wrote:

I don't have an ETT in front of me but I am reasonably certain that Wooster
Hill was the ruling eastward grade between Crestline and Conway, 0.88%, I
think. Maybe your engineer friend was thinking of the sag out of Mace up to
Reedurban or the long climb up Garfield Hill, which starts in Canton, levels
off a bit through Alliance then picks up again just east of the Alliance
westward home signal.

Although the sight and sound of eastbounds dragging and squealing around the
curves on Wooster Hill was (and probably still is) a wonderful thing, I have
good memories of watching/shooting/chasing underpowered heavy Conrail
eastbounds struggling towards Garfield with pushers (Alco's, geeps and GP38s
in the early CR era, GP38-2s in the later CR years) past Fairhope and
Sebring.

------

I have also enjoyed watching/photographing trains on Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-2009903856-1051992044=:90708-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:37:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: western ohio grades Re: [PRR] eastern OH grades --0-1634206898-1051994272=:10940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gize, Saw a reference earlier this week to Murray Hill, a topographical feature near Clement Yard on the eastern edge of Dayton. Clement was also the name given the grade-separated crossing of the Panhandle's Dayton, Xenia & Belpre RR Columbus Division main by the B&O Dayton east cutoff that connected the DX&P with the PRR's Highland Route, the flood-proof connection between Dayton and Cincinnati via the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati and the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern, both built before 1885 as narrow guage lines. Clement is located on the north side of the U.S. 35 freeway between S. Smithville Road and Woodman Drive about a mile southwest of the westernmost edge of Wright-Patterson AFB. It lies at the summit of formidable grades accending either flank of a lateral moraine on the eastern side the Great Miami River Valley. According to PRR track charts, the grade to the west of Clement, between Dutoit Street, a block east of the line's junction with Dayton Union Terminal Ass ley wrote: Steve H. wrote: I don't have an ETT in front of me but I am reasonably certain that Wooster Hill was the ruling eastward grade between Crestline and Conway, 0.88%, I think. Maybe your engineer friend was thinking of the sag out of Mace up to Reedurban or the long climb up Garfield Hill, which starts in Canton, levels off a bit through Alliance then picks up again just east of the Alliance westward home signal. Although the sight and sound of eastbounds dragging and squealing around the curves on Wooster Hill was (and probably still is) a wonderful thing, I have good memories of watching/shooting/chasing underpowered heavy Conrail eastbounds struggling towards Garfield with pushers (Alco's, geeps and GP38s in the early CR era, GP38-2s in the later CR years) past Fairhope and Sebring. ------ I have also enjoyed watching/photographing trains on both these grades. The neat thing about the latter (Garfield) is that in later CR days it was is was much busier than Wooster Hill (there is even a bigger disparity in traffic today between the two), due to Chicago traffic joining at Alliance. In the late 80's/early-mid 90's, many of the bigger EB's from Crestline would leave pushers on all the way to Conway, to help on both these grades. It seems to me that the crest of Garfield hill was east of Garfield, just to the west of the signal bridge at MP 73.5 (west of Salem). Looking west at this location, you could see the "summit", and big EB's were often really working, down to 25mph or so. New crossovers were installed at this location in 1994, which meant the end of the PRR signals. Shortly thereafter, the entire line received cab signals from Alliance to Conway. Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1634206898-1051994272=:10940 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Gize,
 
   Saw a reference earlier this week to Murray Hill, a topographical feature near Clement Yard on the eastern edge of Dayton.
   Clement was also the name given the grade-separated crossing of the Panhandle's Dayton, Xenia & Belpre RR Columbus Division main by the B&O Dayton east cutoff that connected the DX&P with the PRR's Highland Route, the flood-proof connection between Dayton and Cincinnati via the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati and the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern, both built before 1885 as narrow guage lines.
   Clement is located on the north side of the U.S. 35 freeway between S. Smithville Road and Woodman Drive about a mile southwest of the westernmost edge of Wright-Patterson AFB. It lies at the summit of formidable grades accending either flank of a lateral moraine on the eastern side the Great Miami River Valley.
   According to PRR track charts, the grade to the west of Clement, between Dutoit Street, a block east of the line's junction with Dayton Union Terminal Association trackage and Waynetown Tower, and Smithville Road was nearly two percent. Now part of an industrial spur servicing the Delphi (nee DELCO) auto parts plant in eastern Kettering. I became familiar with this grade nearly 35 years ago while attending a art school located next to the tracks. At that time the line was double tracked with clear signs that a third track was once lcoated there. Old timers told me that Clement, which I knew only as an industrial staging yard ahd been once used as a helper yard in the days of steam.
   The going wasn't much better east of Clement. Between there and Zimmerman in the heart of today's Beavercreek where the lien crossed North Fairfield Road, the grade was greater than one percent. This is one of the main reasons that Conrail abandoned this line in 1984 (last through train Jan. 10, 1986)
  This was not the steepest grade in the supposedly flat Columbus division. I've heard sketchy tales of turntables to turn helpers west of Urbana, Ohio, on the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central before it became the  the double-tracked Panhanlde  "freight line"  (it carried only one named passenger train, The Union). linking Columbus and Chicago.
   Sparse information in the 1927 PRR Comapny history refers to redcutions of grades between Urbana and Piqua about 20 miles west. In this area the line crossed the valleys of the Great Miami and Mad Rivers with grades as great as four percent.
 
Tom V.
 
 
was nearly two percent

ley <fjr@mchsi.com> wrote:
Steve H. wrote:

I don't have an ETT in front of me but I am reasonably certain that Wooster
Hill was the ruling eastward grade between Crestline and Conway, 0.88%, I
think. Maybe your engineer friend was thinking of the sag out of Mace up to
Reedurban or the long climb up Garfield Hill, which starts in Canton, levels
off a bit through Alliance then picks up again just east of the Alliance
westward home signal.

Although the sight and sound of eastbounds dragging and squealing around the
curves on Wooster Hill was (and probably still is) a wonderful thing, I have
good memories of watching/shooting/chasing underpowered heavy Conrail
eastbounds struggling towards Garfield with pushers (Alco's, geeps and GP38s
in the early CR era, GP38-2s in the later CR years) past Fairhope and
Sebring.

------

I have also enjoyed watching/photographing trains on Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1634206898-1051994272=:10940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:56:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Western Region --0-397905539-1051995365=:82377 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The bridge crosses the Little Miami River Valley, yup, the whole valley, at Fort Ancient just east of Lebanon, Ohio. When you're canoeing on the Little Miami or biking on the Little Miami Scenic Trail that follows the Panhandle's Cincinnati Division Main (only the PennCentral called it the C&X branch. It was the Little Miami RR, a leased line right up to Conrail) Interstate 71 is a tiny, noisy line in the sky. Tom V. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-397905539-1051995365=:82377 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The bridge crosses the Little Miami River Valley, yup, the whole valley, at Fort Ancient just east of Lebanon, Ohio. When you're canoeing on the Little Miami or biking on the Little Miami Scenic Trail that follows the Panhandle's Cincinnati Division Main (only the PennCentral called it the C&X branch. It was the Little Miami RR, a leased line right up to Conrail) Interstate 71 is a tiny, noisy line in the sky.
Tom V.

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-397905539-1051995365=:82377-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 20:11:07 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Western Region --------------F95265B3BC48F3F76A076604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lee I have a book " Firing on the Pennsy" 1943-1947 by Paul C Dietz copyright 2001 . He evidently was 87 when he wrote the book , which I enjoyed . If there was a way for you to meet this man , I'm sure he would be interesting for the railroad experiance , and all the other things he has accomplished in his life . You can reach him at:Deitz Publishing Company ,Box 1237 , Beverly OH 45715 . It would be great to hear if you can hook up with man Good luck Vince Miller LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/30/2003 12:49:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > > >> I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, >> the Canton >> > District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track >> mains, bridges, >> > crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of >> industry and a >> > huge roundhouse/yard..... >> > You guys consider Ohio Midwest or??? >> > > I grew up in Canton and certainly consider Ohio to be the midwest. And > for those of you who think Ohio is flat, west of Canton there was a > grade through Wooster that required helper service. I used to go down > to the depot while in college in Wooster and visit with railroaders > there and watch the helpers run light downgrade. An engineer who > usually worked the turnaround local out of Wooster told me the grade > was the worst grade between X and Y -- where X and Y are cities whose > names I have completely forgotten, but which at the time seemed quite > distant. > > Lee Rainey --------------F95265B3BC48F3F76A076604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit       Dear Lee
            I have a book " Firing on the Pennsy" 1943-1947 by Paul C Dietz copyright 2001 . He evidently was 87 when he wrote the book , which I enjoyed . If there was a way for you to meet this man , I'm sure he would be interesting for the railroad experiance , and all the other things he has accomplished in his life . You can reach him at:Deitz Publishing Company ,Box 1237 , Beverly OH 45715 . It would be great to hear if you can hook up with man
                              Good luck
                                 Vince Miller

LeeRainey@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/30/2003 12:49:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes:
 
 
I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the Canton
> District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track mains, bridges,
> crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of industry and a
> huge roundhouse/yard.....
> You guys consider Ohio Midwest or???
 

I grew up in Canton and certainly consider Ohio to be the midwest. And for those of you who think Ohio is flat, west of Canton there was a grade through Wooster that required helper service. I used to go down to the depot while in college in Wooster and visit with railroaders there and watch the helpers run light downgrade. An engineer who usually worked the turnaround local out of Wooster told me the grade was the worst grade between X and Y -- where X and Y are cities whose names I have completely forgotten, but which at the time seemed quite distant.

Lee Rainey

--------------F95265B3BC48F3F76A076604-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 00:42:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Fleet of Modernism paint scheme Hello list, According to Blardone and Tilp's Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering, page 13, the Fleet of Modernism paint scheme was applied to some PRR cars between 1938-46. The book doesn't say how long the scheme lasted (ie until all cars were back in Tuscan red) after PRR stopped applying the scheme in 1946. How often were PRR passenger cars shopped and/or painted in the late 1940s? The answer to that question may help Rick and Andy pin down a date. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 00:47:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Request for convention report Hello list, Would those of you lucky enough to attend the PRRT&HS convention post about it when you return home as you have in years past? For those of us unable to attend (due to work and/or geography), it would be most appreicated. How does the Westerfield X23 look? Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert A. Kessler" Subject: [PRR] RE: end of FOM paint scheme Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:38:34 -0700 In a message dated 5/3/03 1:12:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Does anyone know the year the PRR abandoned the FOM scheme? A question > has arisen on the Passenger Car list. It is claimed that the ACL > painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind. I > thought FOM was dead by then. > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org According to a time-line in PRR Passenger Car Painting and Lettering, Blardone and Tilp, the "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme was applied to selected cars between early 1938 and early 1946. According to the same source, use of the post-war scheme with one (initially gold leaf) stripe above the windows, two below began in mid-1947. Obviously the FOM cars were not repainted immediately. The Southwind cars would have remained in the FOM scheme until repainting was needed. As a kid in Newark, NJ I was aware of the transition and used to look for the FOM cars when I was in Penn Station. I would guess that it was around 1950 when I saw one for the last time. Bob Kessler Robertke@attbi.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Request for convention report Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:41:13 -0400 I had a great time at the convention. Had the wife and daughter tagging along so I skipped the tours this year so I can't report on them. But two talks that I enjoyed the most were Elden Gatwood's gave a talk about modeling PRR gons and Jack Consoli's talk about PRR F-units. Jack's talk is a precursor to a Keystone article on F units which is scheduled to be in an upcoming Keystone. I picked up a Westerfield X23 and it looks gorgeous to me! It has Extremely fine detail and since it has a one piece body with much of the detail already applied, it shouldn't be too bad to assemble. Definitely looks like it was worth the wait! I also picked up some stuff that will make it to my website as time permits.. Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug Kisala Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:48 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Request for convention report Hello list, Would those of you lucky enough to attend the PRRT&HS convention post about it when you return home as you have in years past? For those of us unable to attend (due to work and/or geography), it would be most appreicated. How does the Westerfield X23 look? Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:53:21 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Need Vendor contact Help List. Need to contact Dave from Daves Books,who was at the far end of the vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books that would have contact information. Need a mailing address,email address,phone number or all three. Glad to have talked to all that I meet walikg around and the ones who stop to talk at my table. Thanks. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:53:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Need Vendor contact Help --part1_141.10bd3d9f.2be6d7c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. Need to contact Dave from Daves Books,who was at the far end of the vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books that would have contact information. Need a mailing address,email address,phone number or all three. Glad to have talked to all that I meet walikg around and the ones who stop to talk at my table. Thanks. Pat McKinney --part1_141.10bd3d9f.2be6d7c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
       Need to contact Dave from Daves Books,w= ho was at the far end of the vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books=20= that would have contact information. Need a mailing address,email address,ph= one number or all three.
  Glad to have talked to all that I meet walikg around and the ones who= stop to talk at my table. Thanks.

Pat McKinney --part1_141.10bd3d9f.2be6d7c1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 17:02:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Need Vendor contact Help Pat McKinney asked: Need to contact Dave from Dave's Books,who was at the far end of the vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books that would have contact information. Need a mailing address, email address, phone number or all three. Dave Hickox Dave's Books PO Box 137 Delaware OH 43015-0137 (740)-363-9108 (7-11 PM EST) gnrailroader@yahoo.com Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Need Vendor contact Help Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 17:02:38 -0400 Pat McKinney asked: Need to contact Dave from Dave's Books,who was at the far end of the vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books that would have contact information. Need a mailing address, email address, phone number or all three. Dave Hickox Dave's Books PO Box 137 Delaware OH 43015-0137 (740)-363-9108 (7-11 PM EST) gnrailroader@yahoo.com Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:20:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for convention report From: Jerry Britton On 5/4/03 3:47 AM, "Doug Kisala" wrote: > Would those of you lucky enough to attend the PRRT&HS > convention post about it when you return home as you > have in years past? > > For those of us unable to attend (due to work and/or > geography), it would be most appreicated. > > How does the Westerfield X23 look? > Got home 15 minutes ago. If nobody does before, I'll post something in a few hours. Definitely an excellent convention! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:22:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Vendor contact Help From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3134913721_23163176 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/4/03 4:53 PM, "PKMac101@aol.com" wrote: > Need to contact Dave from Daves Books,who was at the far end of th= e > vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books that would have contact > information. Need a mailing address,email address,phone number or all thr= ee. > Glad to have talked to all that I meet walikg around and the ones who s= top > to talk at my table. Thanks. >=20 >=20 Similarly, anyone have a phone number for Bob=B9s Photo=B9s? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3134913721_23163176 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Need Vendor contact Help On 5/4/03 4:53 PM, "PKMac101@aol.com" <PK= Mac101@aol.com> wrote:

   &nb= sp;  Need to contact Dave from Daves Books,who was at the far end = of the vendors room. I didn't get a list of his books that would have contac= t information. Need a mailing address,email address,phone number or all thre= e.
  Glad to have talked to all that I meet walikg around and the on= es who stop to talk at my table. Thanks.


Similarly, anyone have a phone number fo= r Bob’s Photo’s?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3134913721_23163176-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 17:28:06 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Vendor contact no longer needed List. I got Daves information and thank you to all that helped. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 17:28:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Vendor contact no longer needed --part1_1cb.8e85846.2be6dfe6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. I got Daves information and thank you to all that helped. Pat McKinney --part1_1cb.8e85846.2be6dfe6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
       I got Daves information and thank you t= o all that helped.

Pat McKinney --part1_1cb.8e85846.2be6dfe6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Well, I had a great time. Finally got to put some faces to the names I see on PRR-Talk and FAX. I also spent more money than I was supposed to. "Bob's Photos" table is hard to walk away from. Overall, the PRR meet was very nice. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:50:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Report From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" All, please amend this report as appropriate... The convention was excellent in many ways. The site was very accessible, just off I-95, close to the airport, etc. Vendor/banquet room was sufficient (even had a/c!). Guest rooms were fine. Drawback was three shaky elevators that had you feeling like you were riding in an MU car, except going up/down! Arrived with Dave Wartell around 10:30 a.m. on Thursday. Quite unexpectedly, the well-prepared Philly chapter was already registering attendees...and rooms were ready! The vendor room opened for setup at noon. Kudos to Philly on the vendor room. They had special badges for vendors and shoppers were not allowed in during setup time and it was enforced! A security guard was present around the clock. Thursday evening Bruce Smith rolled in. After the vendor room closed, many of us gathered in the lobby and chatted model railroad ops until sometime after 11. As a vendor, I didn't get to many sessions, but the feedback was excellent. Same with the tours at Amtrak and Juniata Terminal (thanks, Bennett!). I really appreciate those of you who purchased through Merchandise Service, though overall sales were only mediocre. I mention this only because I heard the same things from almost every vendor I spoke with. Bob's Photos was one of the few that seemed to do well. Many vendors left after Friday night. Business was slow Friday, so I opted to bag Friday night in the vendor room and lead a consist of three vehicles to several layouts. Among those along were Dave Wartel, Bruce Smith, Doug Gerin, John Frantz, Doug Nelson, Claus Schlund, Brian Butcher, Mike (sorry!), Bob Gallup, and Bill Lewis. Started at Charlie Corangi's in Newark, who does an absolutely awesome Harrisburg passenger scene set in the moonlight with a coat of snow on the ground. We next hit Bill Kachel's. His back yard was decorated with railroad signs including flashing crossbucks and a position light signal. There were two diesel horns that were connected to a compressor that were a "real blast"! Bill was described as the "Patron Saint of Model Catenary" and were were not let down. Wow! Good think those wires weren't really electrified with everyone salivating! Ken McCorry did open on Friday, though it wasn't shown in the program. We arrived at 10:45 to find that, other than us, there were only about a half dozen people there. Sure beat the heat and crowd of 70+ we're used to seeing there! Ken was available to answer a lot of questions from folks visiting for the first time. Thanks, Ken! Back to the hotel and bed! Saturday morning business meeting had no real surprises. Good news! Al Buchan took over as president. Chuck announced that the society will be, at some point, discontinuing centerfold prints as they are not selling. He announced what is in the pipeline for future issues. A thrill is that Jack Consoli authored an article that will be the entire Autumn 2003 issue on PRR's F Units. (My jaw hit the floor!) The next issue will feature PRR's two rail pipe fence, with three rail pipe fence covered next winter. Just kidding, I made that up! I closed up in the vendor room around 1 p.m. and attended Jack Consoli's F unit session, which was a preview of the Keystone article previously mentioned. For the first time I learned that the first set of F3 helpers had freight pilots. I think everyone came away with at least one new fact. Dinner was good and Al G. gave an excellent presentation on the Baldwin Locomotive Works, whose former Eddystone plant was RIGHT NEXT TO THE HOTEL!!! A ton of PRR art was on display. And a surprise to many was the unveiling of two 4' by 6' paintings from the 1939 Broadway Limited that Northern Central Chapter member Ken Murray had just acquired in recent weeks. He was in period dress and told a wonderful story "in character" as he unveiled them. Back to layout tours today. Bruce Smith joined Dave Wartell and I. We had breakfast out and then checked out a few of the main line stations west of ZOO. We were at Bryn Mawr when an eastbound Amtrak (Pennsylvanian?) came through at a about 60 mph. We were on the platform behind the yellow line, which put us only about three feet from the side of the train. What a rush! Surprised they allow this kind of speed vs. pedestrian access. Went to Ken Rideout's layout. He models the eastern slope in HO, doing about half of the same portion I am doing in N scale. He blew me away when he pulled out some photos of the Tunnel Hill blower, which he allowed me to photograph for my own use. These will be of great value in my own modeling. Thanks, Ken! Next took the guys down to Charlie Grant's in Wilmington. Does an excellent Washington Terminal, but the highlight is a working hump yard at Pot Yard. I'd been there before, but it was great to see the amazement on Bruce's and Dave's faces. Dropped Bruce off at the airport and headed home. Time to do laundry and start packing for next year in Cincy. What? You mean I have to wait 360 days or so? ;-( Another great convention with good times and good friends. Thank you all!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Jerry, 2 items not covered. Did Ed Woodings have his completed Live Steam T1 finished and on display as he was hoping? The Model/Contest Room. Any interesting models on display and any results in the votings?.......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:16:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 07:11 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > > 2 items not covered. Did Ed Woodings have his completed Live Steam > T1 finished and on display as he was hoping? T1 was indeed there, as was a K5 and an A?. > > The Model/Contest Room. Any interesting models on display and any > results in the votings?.......Thanks, Gary There was an awesome diorama of a three stall roundhouse cutaway showing a T1 and another loco being serviced. HO scale. I believe this is what won "Best of Show". Claus Schlund and Doug Nelson took home their usual count of N scale awards. Ivan Frantz, a frequent winner in HO, seems to have passed the torch to his son, John, who won for an HO model. I don't recall the particulars of the winners and which entries were theirs, overall. Anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:34:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Any comments on the Westerfield X23? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:38:33 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Jerry, thanks for an excellent summary that was long on facts and yet concise. One small note, Ken Murry's name is spelled without an "a." He's not on-line so he wouldn't have a way to speak up. And just a comment: While it's correct to identify him as a member of the society's NC Chapter, his most significant and impressive railroad preservation work has been carried out with the Lancaster Chapter of NRHS -- principally as project chairman of the GG1 4800 preservation committe, and later as project chairman of the Lemo (or "J") Tower preservation committee. He also had lesser roles in the GG1 4935 and 4859 projects, and of course did the lion's share of photography for my Crossroads of Commerce book on the life and work of PRR artist Grif Teller. Thanks, Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:45:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report In a message dated 5/4/03 5:59:55 PM, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Another great convention with good times and good friends. Thank you all!! >> Jerry - Thank you for the fine report of what sounds like a wonderful meeting. I was unable to attend but will certainly try in the future. I was most pleased to see that your report did not contain any suggestion that there was any drinking or carousing going on. These are things up with which I will not put. It was during my early six years on the Pennsy, riding in dining cars and lounge cars where the porters charged a high price for a libation, that I learned to always carry a pint of Jim Beam. We'd pass it around until it was empty and then, the really evildoers would play cards. Yes, it is true, they'd play cards for money. I carried a pint on business trips for many years after I left the Pennsy and remember a particularly tough meeting in Washington. We took the last Eastern Shuttle to NYC and found that there were no snacks or liquor kits on board. I had a pint in my carryon and passed it around just as I had many years earlier in those lounge cars. So, I'm pleased to see that there was no such goings on at your meeting. Thanks for the feedback. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:49:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Very well received. Earliest version was not ready. On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 07:34 PM, Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Any comments on the Westerfield X23? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:53:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 07:45 PM, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > I was most pleased to see that your report did not contain any > suggestion > that there was any drinking or carousing going on. These are things up > with > which I will not put. > > So, I'm pleased to see that there was no such goings on at your > meeting. > Thanks for the feedback. > I am not aware of any drinking problems related to the PRRT&HS. There was, apparently, a small, unrelated group that overindulged. I don't think they caused any damage or noise, but Friday morning there was a drunk passed out in the hallway on the third floor. Police and medics were summoned, but I guess they returned him to his room as the gurney left empty. Irresponsible! But again, I don't believe this was related to the Society. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:09:30 -0400 Gents, It's good to be back after attending my first convention. I arrived around 10:00 with my father and hung out meeting people that i talk to here on the list as well as jumping from my dads sometimes overpowering shadow. I took the thursday trip to the Amtrak training center in Wilmington which was excellent. The engineering department supervisor was a great host. We heard many stories from the start of his employment as a hostler at Wilmington through his current assignment with Amtrak. Side note: The building is actually south of wilmington between the corridor and I-95. Anyway, In the simulator suite they had control stands for an F40, an P42, and an F59PHI. These were all class 2 simulators with a constant video. The only significant thing training wise is the signal tree. Though it was neat to sit with the control stands. The best part was the class 1 simulator for the Acela trainset. This had full 360 degree motion including the regular sway and bounce of a train. After running through the lower washington section of the corridor they switched to Providence, Mass. This provided interesting fun when we concluded the simulation by plowing a tractor trailer straddling a grade crossing. Friday morning, i took the trip to Bennet's Juniata Terminal: Fairhill Division. On the way to the terminal we were given an unplanned cultural tour of North Philadelphia since the bus driver managed to get semi-lost. All things conmsidered, once we arrived we were greeted with idling E8's and SW-1500's. The switchers were painted in Bennet's unmistakable JUNIATA paint scheme. The 120 and recentlt completed parlor/lounge car WARRIOR RIDGE were on display with the Pralor car open for exhibition. Coupled to the SW-1500's was an N5C in a east-west pool service scheme. Besides the road equipment, two mobile cranes were also on display for pictures. THANK YOU BENNET! Friday afternoon i attanded a session on Morris tower witch was delightfully given by a former operator. He had many unique experiences to tell. I also divulged among the vendors room and bought a piece of brass and some other rolling stock. That evening was highlighted by a wild and wonderful trip to three layouts as mentioned by Jerry. (Side note: Jerry has been inspired to perhaps model catenary now.) Saturday morning was the business meeting as mentioned by Jerry. Unknowing to me, my father is now vice president. Peg Stanley said that makes me the Assistant of Vice, or Vice Assistant. That evening was the dinner with a wonderful presentation as noted by jerry. Also, to my suprise i magaed to get 3rd in the model competiton for freight cars. (Side Note: I believe pictures of all models will be posted online sometime.) Sunday Morning my father and I packed and checked out. We then left for the tour of CETC at 30th street and the platform where the Acela trainsets are maintained in Penn Coach yard. CETC was very interesting even for the meager amount of traffic on a sunday. A highlight was taking ictures of the main concourse from the 30th street breezeway at the fifth floor. Then the group was escorted to Penn Coach yard where we were allowed to take pictures of all the equipment. We were allowed to do hands on inspection of one of two trainsets and ask any questions with the technicians that were working. After arriving back at the hotel dad and I did what you should always do in philly. Eat a cheesesteak! went to Paul Backenstoses layout and drove home. Overall, I had a great time for my fuirst convention and am thorougly looking forwatrd to Cinncinatti. -John Frantz P.S. Jerry failed to mention the he got an unused MP54 whistle at the banquet as a door prize. lol. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:25:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" I'm not sure if Juniata Terminal was in the right place in the program...shouldn't it have been under "layout tours"? ;-) Thanks for the show, Bennett and Eric! On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 08:09 PM, John Frantz wrote: > Friday morning, i took the trip to Bennet's Juniata Terminal: Fairhill > Division. On the way to the terminal we were given an unplanned > cultural tour of North Philadelphia since the bus driver managed to > get semi-lost. All things conmsidered, once we arrived we were greeted > with idling E8's and SW-1500's. The switchers were painted in Bennet's > unmistakable JUNIATA paint scheme. The 120 and recentlt completed > parlor/lounge car WARRIOR RIDGE were on display with the Pralor car > open for exhibition. Coupled to the SW-1500's was an N5C in a > east-west pool service scheme. Besides the road equipment, two mobile > cranes were also on display for pictures. THANK YOU BENNET! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:29:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 08:09 PM, John Frantz wrote: > P.S. Jerry failed to mention the he got an unused MP54 whistle at the > banquet as a door prize. lol. I NEVER win in the raffle...but this year I was like the fourth or fifth ticket pulled. Yes, I got an unused, near mint condition whistle that was labeled as being for an MP54. First, I hate MP54's. I think they are ugly. Not "butt ugly", as that is reserved for the P5's. (Sorry, Bruce, had to jag you!) Whistle looked cool, and I suppose any whistle is a good whistle. Besides, I will have MP54's on my layout. I'll get it set up with CO2, but I don't know if it'll be in the train room or outside -- to call the kids for dinner! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:57:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] June Model Railroader From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Received the June Model Railroader while I was at the convention. Two important points: 1) In the editorial, Terry Thompson lists "Trains I'd Like to See". He writes "A pair from the Pennsy - a K4 Pacific and an L1 Mike, in HO and N. The Bowser and Bachmann HO K4 models aren't bad, but DCC and sound would make a good thing better. And if you're making a K4, why not an L1? The Pennsy was industrial America at its most heroic." (page 6) 2) The preview for the June issue of Trains (page 107) indicates that the "Railroad Blueprint" section will feature "PRR's Sunnyside Yard. The complete inside story and detailed track diagram of the world's largest passenger car yard in 1956. Perfect for the urban modeler!" Good month for PRR coverage. Does anyone on the list model portions of Sunnyside? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:00:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] MP54 Whistle From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Anyone know what range of pressure should be applied for an MP54 whistle? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:03:03 -0700 Last time I was east, the entire Bryn Mawr interlocking had a 30 mph speed restriction due to poor track maintainence (due to lack of funds?). I take it this has been remedied? John > >Back to layout tours today. Bruce Smith joined Dave Wartell and I. We >had breakfast out and then checked out a few of the main line stations >west of ZOO. We were at Bryn Mawr when an eastbound Amtrak >(Pennsylvanian?) came through at a about 60 mph. We were on the >platform behind the yellow line, which put us only about three feet >from the side of the train. What a rush! Surprised they allow this kind >of speed vs. pedestrian access. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:09:56 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Withers Diesel Pictorial Volume 8... Hi all, Picked up Vol 8 (EMD GP7, GP9, SD7 and SD9's) of the Withers diesel pictorial series at the PRRT&HS convention over the weekend. This volume is pretty much the same great stuff as the previous volumes. The majority of the coverage is on the GP's with 88 pages and only 11 on the SD's but based on quantity of units the PRR owned, this makes sense... Did anyone else on the list buy a copy yet? If so, are all the pages in the right order? My copy has a few sections stapled in out of order. Just wondering if it's just mine that's messed up! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 01:32:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Withers Diesel Pictorial Volume 8... The one I picked up from Withers at the convention has the pages messed up like yours. They are all there just out of order. ----------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 06:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Withers Diesel Pictorial Volume 8... I bought the book also. Great book but the page numbers are really mixed up. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 Whistle Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:01:05 -0400 Now Jerry, Why would you want to know that? ;) I thought you hated MP54s Congrats though on your new acquisition! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry @ Pennsy [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:00 PM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] MP54 Whistle Anyone know what range of pressure should be applied for an MP54 whistle? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 Whistle Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:06:26 -0400 Oops! This is what happens when you get back to 120 emails and start reading from the end forward! Didn't see till after I sent that he already annonced he won it. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:01 AM To: 'Jerry @ Pennsy'; PRR-talk Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 Whistle Now Jerry, Why would you want to know that? ;) I thought you hated MP54s Congrats though on your new acquisition! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry @ Pennsy [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:00 PM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] MP54 Whistle Anyone know what range of pressure should be applied for an MP54 whistle? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:16:40 -0400 This was my first PRRT&HS National Convention and I had a great time, especially placing faces with names that we all see the time here on the PRR-Talk list. Jerry's report was a good synopsis of the meeting but I would like to add a comment on the excellent presentation and model display that Elden Gatwood had on PRR gons. His presentation showed both prototype and model pictures of most of the PRR's gon classes and he also brought along more that a dozen of the models that we all drooled over in the model contest room. His clinic handout provided information on 54 classes and subclasses on basic construction of the prototype and how to model each particular car. Elden has stated several times that he is just an average modeler, but his model presentation showed just the opposite. Really great looking models and I know many people went away salivating after looking at his display. Thanks Elden for a super presentation and model display and for a chance to talk to you about your construction techniques. Bud Kaiser ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:30:18 -0400 Subject: Elden's Gon Handout - Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: Jerry Britton On 5/5/03 8:16 AM, Bud Kaiser (bkaiser@voicenet.com) wrote: > His clinic handout provided information on 54 classes and > subclasses on basic construction of the prototype and how to model each > particular car. Elden: Any chance we could post your handout on Keystone Crossings in PDF format? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:02:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Gondola Modeling Handout Posted From: Jerry Britton On the Modeling page of Keystone Crossings you will now find a PDF of Elden's handout on modeling PRR gondolas. Al Buchan, incoming president of the society, provided me with it in Word format. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:49:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for convention report Howdy folks...I rolled back in about 8:30 central last night after another great convention (Kudos to the Philly Chapter and especially Al and Tina G!). We had a ton of fun, including elevator roulette!!! Next year in Cincy sounds incredible...make plans now...no excuses!!!!! Doug asks: >How does the Westerfield X23 look? Bob adds: >Any comments on the Westerfield X23? Al had three different kits there...original roof with plate door, original roof with replacement door, and replacement roof (lap seam?) and door. I bought 2 of each to complete my fleet of X23s!! The kit is spectacular. The details on the body casting are pretty amazing and the bodies are one piece as has been mentioned. Al pointed out to me that the bracing overlapped correctly at the top and bottom of the car. All three cars are vertical sheathed with the clamp boards at the bottom. The resin in mine was still "outgassing"...(I LOVE the smell of resin in the morning) Jerry said: >There was an awesome diorama of a three stall roundhouse cutaway >showing a T1 and another loco being serviced. HO scale. I believe this >is what won "Best of Show". Matthew Hurst (of this list), a young whippersnapper of a modeler built the diorama from the Grif Teller painting of such!!! Stunning. Tom Hayden (also of this list) won best HO steam with his $60 highly modified Pennline/Bowser T1 Keith Thompson had an S scale resin H21 from his own masters, Craig Bossler (sp?) had an H21D covered hopper (you can always count on Craig to have a weird one). Keith and I fell down this year as neither of us brought an electric, and therefore there were NONE on display. Walt Stafa had a crawler crane on a a GRA, and I had my wreck train, as well as my crawler/FXL/FM project. Frankly, the model room was packed, and there wasn't enough time to see it all, especially if you stood and drooled at Ed's live steam T1!! The vendor room was a little disappointing this year. For some reason, it felt sparser than last, and aside from Bob's photos, and the Westerfileds, most of the vendors seemed to be having a slow convention...I managed to pick up some back issues of the Keystone, and the 1940's passenger train consist book along with my Westerfield ktis. There wasn't really anything "new" there except the X23. Nick Seamen (Middle Div) did have some O scale FOM decals, but is apparently having trouble getting a printer for his work. The seminars were also very good. To Jerry's list of standouts I would add Tom Flagg's talk on PRR in New York Harbor...this talk, as well as the F unit talk and both of Ken's talks about tower operation could have easily been two hours instead of one! For me, one of the highlights of the convention was the layout tours...too many good layouts!!! As a "virgin" for these, I was in "shock and awe". Standouts for me were: Bennet and Eric Levin's 1:1 trains Bill Kachel's inclined catenary...WOW!!!!! Ken McCorry's space...we followed one train end to end...it took 1 hour, 22 minutes and my feet were TIRED! We need to get him back to PRR and out of Conjobs... Ken Rideout's pristine layout room...you could eat off the floors, and the carpentry and craftsmanship of the benchwork and trackwork were gorgeous...almost hate to cover it with scenery!!! He also had everything organized and in its place (although I'm told the work crew STILL manages to lose things!). BTW, the layout is fantastic too!!! As Jerry mentioned, we did some railfanning on the mainline yesterday AM. One big find was a section of PRR 3 pipe fence in the underpass at the west end of the Wynwood station...with a couple of 2 pipe stanchions in the middle as replacements! The middle pipe lay on top of the bottom hole and the bottom pipe was suspended by a piece of rebar welded onto the middle pipe. The same underpass showed us that the superelevated track crossing above (evident in the height of the ends of the ties of adjacent tracks) was at least in part due to the bridge footings being built with the superelevation BUILT IN! That is that the steel work rested on ANGLED abutments...giving the abutment a "notched" appearance. Very interesting indeed (model THAT!) Oh yeah, Jerry confirmed with his own eyes that there is a significant grade for westbounds out of Philly towards Paoli. Another GREAT convention! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:50:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Aerial Shots of ZOO From: Jerry Britton Yesterday while running around on layout tours, having just left Ken Rideout's, we were driving east on 76 along the river. There was some kind of walk-a-thon taking place, and News 6 was giving tethered balloon rides from inside the Zoo. There was a huge gondola on the balloon. Taking parking and admissions costs into mind, waiting in line, and other planned schedules, we passed. But it occurred to us that while most people were going up and looking east at the city and north at boat house row, a few of us might be looking south and down and snapping a roll of film (or memory card) full of shots of ZOO interlocking! Would have been perfect height and angle! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:59:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser B6 0-6-0 From: Jerry Britton Not intended as a sales pitch, but as a public service announcement... Bowser has assigned a part number and set pricing on their forthcoming B6 steam locomotive. It will be a deluxe kit and is expected "summer 2003". New pics are on Bowser's site as well as on the advance reservation page of Merchandise Service ( http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html ). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:22:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] FOM (once more) >Does anyone know the year the PRR abandoned the FOM scheme? A question >has arisen on the Passenger Car list. It is claimed that the ACL >painted cars in that scheme in 1949 for service in the Southwind. I >thought FOM was dead by then. >-- >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org Andy, Larry Goolsby's book "Atlantic Coast Line Passenger Service; the Postwar Years" shows two photos of ACL cars in FOM. On page 129 is the following quote" "Around 1949, No. 209 was painted in Pennsylvania's Tuscan red with imitation gold striping and serif lettering for expanded South Wind service. FEC contributed at least one such coach too, the Boca Raton." Notably, the PHOTO show an FOM scheme on 209, but that caption isn't NEARLY as clear in the description . The second photo is on the rear cover and is in color. Both are credited to ACL and show #209 on a transfer table with brand new paint. FOM was definitely longer lived than Futura...In the Octararo Branch book there is a photo of an FOM combine on the branch in 1945. As noted by others, FOM cars continued to show up into the late 40s... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:44:59 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 0-6-0 A deluxe kit with an NMRA coupler? ;-) A switcher with no coupler on the pilot?? :-( Hopefully this is a pilot and installing Kadee compatibles at both ends is an anticipated option for the builder. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > Not intended as a sales pitch, but as a public service announcement... > > Bowser has assigned a part number and set pricing on their forthcoming B6 > steam locomotive. It will be a deluxe kit and is expected "summer 2003". > > New pics are on Bowser's site as well as on the advance reservation page of > Merchandise Service ( http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html ). > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:28:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Blowers at Tunnel Hill From: Jerry Britton We previously discussed the blowers at Tunnel Hill, but never came to a conclusion as to when the steam power plant there was replaced by the diesel power plant. During the convention, I visited Ken Ridout's layout. He is modeling this area in HO and had numerous photos of the diesel plant and the photos were all marked 1947 on the back. So it appears that the diesel facility was definitely in place by my modeling timeframe of 1954. I am very thankful to Ken as he allowed me to digitally photograph his photos and they came out well. Not only that, but my digital macro/zoom allowed me to do on-the-spot enlargements of specific details! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:59:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Jerry Britton I've posted 58 digital photos from the convention. They are at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ Search on Keyword = "PRRT&HS 2003". (without the quotes) There are photos of Bill Kachel's layout, several stations on the main line, and Ken Rideout's layout. I did not photograph the layouts of Charlie Corangi, Ken McCorry, or Charlie Grant, as I had previously done that and they are already in the Photo database. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:50:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: Jerry Britton On 5/5/03 1:03 AM, John Cooper (johncoop@ix.netcom.com) wrote: > Last time I was east, the entire Bryn Mawr interlocking had a 30 mph speed > restriction due to poor track maintainence (due to lack of funds?). I take > it this has been remedied? I don't know about remedied, but that train was a hell of a lot faster than 30 mph! I posted a photo of it entering the interlocking limits. My digital camera saved it and I tried to take another. I got one big blur of the side of the lead locomotive. I was standing just behind the yellow line, so I must have been only three feet from the loco. And there was no barrier. Just one hell of a rush of air. Despite being in an "allowed" area, I opted to step back further for the rest of the consist! Bruce, Dave, and I did note that they are still using sectional rail on all four tracks through Bryn Mawr. At our other stops (east) there was welded rail on tracks 1, 3 and 4. Track 2 was still "snap track" sections for some reason. > > John > > >> >> Back to layout tours today. Bruce Smith joined Dave Wartell and I. We >> had breakfast out and then checked out a few of the main line stations >> west of ZOO. We were at Bryn Mawr when an eastbound Amtrak >> (Pennsylvanian?) came through at a about 60 mph. We were on the >> platform behind the yellow line, which put us only about three feet >> from the side of the train. What a rush! Surprised they allow this kind >> of speed vs. pedestrian access. >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:10:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Withers PRR Diesels Volume Eight From: Jerry Britton Even more reports are coming in about Withers "PRR Diesels Volume Eight" having pages out of order. It "may" be possible that the entire run was assembled incorrectly. At this point I am somewhat grateful that I wasn't selling them (only Withers was) so I don't have to deal with returns! (We have taken reservations and will check page order before shipping once they do arrive.) For those with "bad books", Withers has a web site at http://www.witherspublishing.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:19:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Wrap Up From: Jerry Britton Al: As chair of the Philadelphia Convention, please accept a note of gratitude from the members of the "PRR-talk" list who attended. Pass on our thanks to all chapter members who played a role in this year's edition of the event. It was well-planned, well-managed, and seemed to come off without a hitch. It was especially interesting that you arranged for the elevators to feel like you were riding in MP54's!!! Okay, maybe you didn't arrange that!!! I want to particularly commend Charlie Horan for the management of the vendor room. The special badges, the enforcement of "vendors only" during setup times, and the security was appreciated. Your group has set high standards that others will need to strive to meet or exceed. Thank you for doing so. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:20:15 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Amtrak rail Jerry Britton wrote: >Bruce, Dave, and I did note that they are still using sectional rail on all >four tracks through Bryn Mawr. At our other stops (east) there was welded >rail on tracks 1, 3 and 4. Track 2 was still "snap track" sections for some >reason. > I rode an Amtrak Keystone Service train to Philly en route to the convention. It's still mostly stick rail between Middletown and Lancaster, and the welded rail east of Lancaster isn't all that smooth (I gave up trying to write notes on some work I'd brought along). Supposedly this will be remedied under the $140 million capital program that PennDOT and Amtrak agreed upon several years ago but which has been stalled because Amtrak has had problems coming up with its $70 million share. PennDOT came up with its half, but Amtrak under David Gunn is only now emerging from its previous practices of generating creative accounting lies and keeping multiple sets of books. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:26:13 -0800 > of the lead locomotive. I was standing just behind the yellow line, so I > must have been only three feet from the loco. And there was no barrier. Just > one hell of a rush of air. Despite being in an "allowed" area, I opted to > step back further for the rest of the consist! On the NEC, if you sit in the shelter during a passing train, the rush of wind will bend the "glass" quite a fair amount. Good thing it's plastic. That's running on the inside tracks. You do have warning though... The track "sings" a couple of seconds before the train passes you. Occasionally, Amtrak will run on the outside tracks, then it's *really* dramatic. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:35:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report From: Jerry Britton On 5/5/03 1:26 PM, Alex Charyna (alex@arclyte.com) wrote: >> of the lead locomotive. I was standing just behind the yellow line, so I >> must have been only three feet from the loco. And there was no barrier. > Just >> one hell of a rush of air. Despite being in an "allowed" area, I opted to >> step back further for the rest of the consist! > > On the NEC, if you sit in the shelter during a passing train, the rush of > wind > will bend the "glass" quite a fair amount. Good thing it's plastic. > That's running on the inside tracks. > You do have warning though... The track "sings" a couple of seconds before > the > train passes you. > > Occasionally, Amtrak will run on the outside tracks, then it's *really* > dramatic. > In this case it was on the outside track...track one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:38:19 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] ADVISORY from Withers Publishing regarding replacements for Greetings to all: Publisher Paul Withers has checked several cases of the new Withers Publishing PRR Diesel Volume 8 Geep books and all seem to be misbound, on account of an error at the bindery. We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused for readers, researchers, or model railroaders. A new press run will have to be done. If you purchased a Geep book, please contact Paul Withers in one of the following ways to arrange for a replacement: * e-mail at witherspub@aol.com * phone at 717-896-3173 * snail-mail at 528 Dunkel School Road, Halifax, PA 17032 Thanks for your patience and understanding, adn for your continued support of the PRR diesel series. Dan Cupper, managing editor, Diesel Era magazine and Withers Publishing ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:47:46 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Wrap Up Jerry, et al., Thanx for your kind comments. It makes doing things worthwhile when getting positive feedback. Yes the elevators were like a trip on an MP54 or on anything for that matter that was running over bad track. I must say though that I was not really the overall chairman, I only ran the programs and got the HO scale layout guys. Al Giannantonio, Chapter Prez, was the overall chair coordinating all of the separate interest groups. But I will certainly pass this message to all concerned. And thanx for all who attended, it was good seeing old friends again, putting faces to online names and meeting new people. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:54:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Wrap Up From: Jerry Britton On 5/5/03 1:47 PM, Al Buchan (abbuchan1@comcast.net) wrote: > Thanx for your kind comments. It makes doing things worthwhile when > getting positive feedback. Yes the elevators were like a trip on an MP54 > or on anything for that matter that was running over bad track. > > I must say though that I was not really the overall chairman, I only ran > the programs and got the HO scale layout guys. Al Giannantonio, Chapter > Prez, was the overall chair coordinating all of the separate interest > groups. But I will certainly pass this message to all concerned. Al: The message was sent to Al G., with a copy to PRR-talk. Suppose I should have started the message with "Al G:". Sorry you misunderstood. Your support is appreciated as well, however. Best wishes for your tenure as prez! > > And thanx for all who attended, it was good seeing old friends again, > putting faces to online names and meeting new people. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Gondola Modeling and Conference Thanks Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:24:03 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31333.81CEF630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jerry and all; I just got back late last night. Thanks to all for a great time. Jerry, thanks for posting the list. It is the Society's property now, so Al was the person to say "yes". Several people asked me about it and unfortunately my folder of additional handouts had gone missing after the presentation. To those that missed, I apologize for the scheduling conflicts. There just seem to be too many things to do in too little time, and so some overlap appeared to be unavoidable. I am sorry that I didn't get to talk to a greater number of you. I was still assembling the presentation up until showtime and had some other things I needed to take care of afterward. All the conversations I had were great and I appreciated all the folks I got to chat with. I greatly enjoyed talking to those of you that did not get to go on the layout tours. And Bud, thanks for the kind words about my models. But did you SEE some of the models there? Craig's H21d was astounding. And Jack's G31c and G31e are the best PRR gons I've ever seen. I am still in awe. Congrats to not only the winners, but all that contributed their models. I know many that did not receive recognition should have. This year was sure better than others, and I'm counting on the Cincy group to bring theirs in 2004. For those that asked, I do not think that the gon modeling materiel is the right thing for the Keystone. It is, after all, not a modeling magazine. And all the info would be too much. I will, however, get the details out there one way or another. I was quite serious that this whole thing is do-able and achievable by anyone that puts the time in. If I could put together 12 gons in 5 months, including two scratchbuilds, then anyone could. I am notoriously fumble-fingered, so the "skills" thing is NO excuse. In the meantime, feel free to drop me a line and I will try to answer your questions. And one final heartfelt thanks once again to Jack Consoli and Larry Kline. I couldn't have done it without you. Elden Gatwood ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31333.81CEF630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Gondola Modeling and Conference Thanks

Jerry and all;
        I just = got back late last night.  Thanks to all for a great time.  = Jerry, thanks for posting the list.  It is the Society's property = now, so Al was the person to say "yes".  Several people = asked me about it and unfortunately my folder of additional handouts = had gone missing after the presentation.  To those that missed, I = apologize for the scheduling conflicts.  There just seem to be too = many things to do in too little time, and so some overlap appeared to = be unavoidable.

        I am sorry = that I didn't get to talk to a greater number of you.  I was still = assembling the presentation up until showtime and had some other things = I needed to take care of afterward.  All the conversations I had = were great and I appreciated all the folks I got to chat with.  I = greatly enjoyed talking to those of you that did not get to go on the = layout tours.  And Bud, thanks for the kind words about my = models.  But did you SEE some of the models there?  Craig's = H21d was astounding.  And Jack's G31c and G31e are the best PRR = gons I've ever seen.  I am still in awe.  Congrats to not = only the winners, but all that contributed their models.  I know = many that did not receive recognition should have. This year was sure = better than others, and I'm counting on the Cincy group to bring theirs = in 2004.

        For those = that asked, I do not think that the gon modeling materiel is the right = thing for the Keystone.  It is, after all, not a modeling = magazine.  And all the info would be too much.  I will, = however, get the details out there one way or another.  I was = quite serious that this whole thing is do-able and achievable by anyone = that puts the time in.  If I could put together 12 gons in 5 = months, including two scratchbuilds, then anyone could.  I am = notoriously fumble-fingered, so the "skills" thing is NO = excuse.  In the meantime, feel free to drop me a line and I will = try to answer your questions.

        And one = final heartfelt thanks once again to Jack Consoli and Larry = Kline.  I couldn't have done it without you.

Elden Gatwood

------_=_NextPart_001_01C31333.81CEF630-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:34:43 -0500 Mr. Woodings had his T1 there, but he told me that it still has some plumbing to be finished. Externally, it looks finished and outstanding! He indicated that we should not look to see it running any time soon as he is "burned out" on this project. He started it in 1974 and has over 17,000 hours of work in it! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:39:56 -0500 The X23 is excellent! Three late versions are now available with more to come. I bought one with more to come. Al told me this kit has been in the works for 5 years and is by far the best think you have seen in resin! If you have been wondering whether to buy, just do it! Dave Pfeiffer > > Any comments on the Westerfield X23? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:22:33 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: Re: [PRR] Convention Report Re the Westerfield class X23. I asked Al W. if he was going to do the company service versions (tool and supply cars) and he indicated yes. Al B. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:29:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Gondola handout Jerry Can't open the gondola handout at Keystone Crossings that you posted. Don't think that it's a problem with Acrobat because I tried the MOW handout as a comparison and had no problems opening. Anybody else have any trouble? Ron __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:37:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Keystone Crossings PDF Files From: Jerry Britton For All: And this is the last time I am addressing it... I have asked before for folks to report the problem and list the version of Acrobat they are using as well as the version of operating system they are using, so that I may troubleshoot. Nobody does. Okay, one person did. That offer is now closed. The fact of the matter is that I am creating PDF's with Acrobat 5. The MoW PDF was a lot older (Acrobat 3, perhaps). I suspect the problem is that some/many of you do not have a new enough version of Acrobat Reader. I have tested these files from MacOS 9x, MacOS 10.x, Windows 2000 Pro, and Windows 98, all with the current version of Acrobat Reader, and they all work fine. End of story. Sorry. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondola handout Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:45:05 +0000 First I downloaded reader 5.1 still didn't open. Then I opened Acrobat Reader 5.1 first and then downloaded and it worked fine. It is a two page summary. > Jerry > > Can't open the gondola handout at Keystone Crossings > that you posted. Don't think that it's a problem with > Acrobat because I tried the MOW handout as a > comparison and had no problems opening. Anybody else > have any trouble? > > Ron > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Model Room Photos Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:52:08 -0400 Gents, Did anyone at the convention get any pictures of the T1? I failed to get a chance. My teachers at school would very much like to see his acomplishment. They were in shock when I told them he used the Auto Cad release 10 for all of his drawings. Along the same lines, will pictures from the model room be posted sometime soon? Happy Rails, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:56:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondola handout From: Jerry Britton On 5/5/03 3:45 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > First I downloaded reader 5.1 still didn't open. Then I opened Acrobat Reader > 5.1 first and then downloaded and it worked fine. It is a two page summary. While I can't be 100% certain, that sounds like your operating system is not properly handing off .PDF files to Acrobat Reader. More to the point, it seems the o/s is not launching Reader if it is not already open, but perhaps Reader is reacting fine to the .PDF suffix. The fact that you downloaded the file and were able to open it proves the issue is not at my end (server based). It is possible there is a Reader bug with regard to autolaunch when a browser hands off a file. I can't respond to that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:03:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Gondola Modeling and Conference Thanks On Mon, 5 May 2003, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > was the person to say "yes". Several people asked me about it and > unfortunately my folder of additional handouts had gone missing after the > presentation. To those that missed, I apologize for the scheduling It was still floating around the room the next day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Room Photos John, Photos of Ed Woodings T1 (if that is the one you are referring to, can be found on the net. Here: http://users.rcn.com/borders/woodings/ Be sure to click on the PL_S link as it takes you to the loco itself. Just plain Impressive!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Passing trains, was: [PRR] Convention Report Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:08:37 -0700 Just for perspective, an entire 6-car metroliner at 120mph will pass the spot where you are standing in under 3.5 seconds. John -----Original Message----- From: Alex Charyna To: PRR-Talk Posting Date: Monday, May 05, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Report >> of the lead locomotive. I was standing just behind the yellow line, so I >> must have been only three feet from the loco. And there was no barrier. >Just >> one hell of a rush of air. Despite being in an "allowed" area, I opted to >> step back further for the rest of the consist! > >On the NEC, if you sit in the shelter during a passing train, the rush of >wind >will bend the "glass" quite a fair amount. Good thing it's plastic. >That's running on the inside tracks. >You do have warning though... The track "sings" a couple of seconds before >the >train passes you. > >Occasionally, Amtrak will run on the outside tracks, then it's *really* >dramatic. > >-alex > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: r.r.farquharson@att.net Subject: [PRR] MP 229's Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 02:15:48 +0000 Does anyone have a source for MP 229's for the Middle Division? I have already located ones for 1931 (at the recent PRRT&HS convention), and 1944 and 1954 in the Keystone Crossings archives. Am looking for data to fill in the gaps between '31 and '44 and again between '44 and '54. Looking for road #'s for any H8,9,10's and M1,M1a,M1b assigned to the Middle Division. Any assistance appreciated. Thanks in advance. Bob Farquharson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:49:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: Jerry Britton If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts". For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I didn't think of. Through Train Engineer - Whether it be passenger or freight, this job is to run a train through the layout, mostly non-stop. Probably an ideal job for the "rail fan". Way Freight Engineer - Take a small train out on the layout and drop off/pick up cars. Not overly involved, but some activity. Local Switcher - Larger switching areas often have dedicated switchers. This involves a lot of switching, planning moves, switch-backs, etc. Yard - Assembling a disassembling trains per car cards. Very fast paced, but usually straightforward. Hostler - Works with the yard to get power to/from trains. Dispatcher - Plans movements over the main line. Very analytical. Must think 15 minutes ahead (or more). May assume the role of tower operators for the entire system, depending on set-up. May or may not be computerized. Tower - A subset of the dispatcher's role. Sets alignments through a specific territory. On a model railroad, one tower may/probably controls several interlockings. May or may not be computerized. I've heard people comment on layouts they've been to and they didn't like them because they were "all switching", "not enough switching", etc. I hope to provide a little of everything. My one switching area will be a monster (Harrisburg freight station and REA area). Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. (Having operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:58:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 8:49 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > I'll > suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I > didn't think of. > Seems as if I ommitted... Helpers - Spend the op session pushing (or pulling, in the case of passenger) trains up/down grades. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:09:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] short RPOs (was Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR)) Dennis, Gary, Thanks for the info on HO baggage RPO models! Over the weekend at teh PRRT&HS meeting, I managed to pick up the back issue of the Keystone devoted to RPOs (62(1) Spring 1993)...that Blardone guy again! I also saw one of the Precision BM70KA cars, but it was the early version with baggage compartment windows. Looked very nice tho. BTW, those N-scalers are one up on us HO modelers...they have a resin BM70K (a?)...very nice! As for the PBM70 on the mushroom train...I'm not sure I've heard that. Is it buried somewhere in the reprint or in another source. Unfortunately, in the Keystone RPO article, much of the route and assignment info is for 1955, and therefore the Fredrick RPO is long gone by then (1948) as is much of the Octararo Branch passenger service. Does anyone know the class of car assigned to the Fredrick RPO run??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:22:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] short RPOs (was Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR)) From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 9:09 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > BTW, those N-scalers are one up on us HO modelers...they have a resin BM70K > (a?)...very nice! > Hell Gate Models, for those interested. Includes decals, brass details, but not trucks. $33 retail. They sell direct only. http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/HellGate/products.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] short RPOs (was Pike Sized Pass Trains (was MR)) Bruce, Just happen to have my source of the PBM70 and Mushroom train handy. Photos of the train appear in one of the "The High Line" issues. Vol 6 # 3 & 4-Vol 7 #1 (all 1 issue). I am sure Charlie Horan would have a copy for sale. The issue is called "The Octoraro Branch" In particular page 12 and 23 show E5s 6536 with B60 and PBM70, on train MD-59, "The Mushroom Train". Looks like you may have another use for that E5s you purchased at last years covention? ...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:41:14 -0400 Remember that ancient Chinese proverb Jerry;It's your railroad. Do it your way. Phil P > If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is > a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, > I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts". > > For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or > hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll > suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I > didn't think of. > > Through Train Engineer - Whether it be passenger or freight, this job is to > run a train through the layout, mostly non-stop. Probably an ideal job for > the "rail fan". > > Way Freight Engineer - Take a small train out on the layout and drop > off/pick up cars. Not overly involved, but some activity. > > Local Switcher - Larger switching areas often have dedicated switchers. This > involves a lot of switching, planning moves, switch-backs, etc. > > Yard - Assembling a disassembling trains per car cards. Very fast paced, but > usually straightforward. > > Hostler - Works with the yard to get power to/from trains. > > Dispatcher - Plans movements over the main line. Very analytical. Must think > 15 minutes ahead (or more). May assume the role of tower operators for the > entire system, depending on set-up. May or may not be computerized. > > Tower - A subset of the dispatcher's role. Sets alignments through a > specific territory. On a model railroad, one tower may/probably controls > several interlockings. May or may not be computerized. > > I've heard people comment on layouts they've been to and they didn't like > them because they were "all switching", "not enough switching", etc. I hope > to provide a little of everything. My one switching area will be a monster > (Harrisburg freight station and REA area). > > Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and > radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. (Having > operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:45:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 11:31 AM, Ray Breyer (rbreyer@cesinfo.com) wrote: > Stations have > phones, and an engineer must phone in (either as the conductor for stopped > trains, or as the station agent if running through) to announce the location > of his train. A train doesn't MOVE unless it has a proper track warrant AND > train orders. While prototypical, discussions with many others, including at the convention, indicates this is often overkill and slows things down TOO much (paperwork doesn't abide by a fast clock) and often drives away operators. I'm not sure what all I am going to implement. The several layouts I operate on follow the same approach: A job opens. The dispatcher calls for a crew and gives them their car cards. (In the case of a through train it will be a single "train card".) They go to the yard and acquire their train and radio the dispatcher for clearance. The dispatcher clears their route through "x". As the train moves through the layout, the crew o/s's its location, stopping at point "x" and reporting so if it has not since received orders to continue. Track warrants/orders are not used. Works for both dark and signaled situations. > As for movement of cars, I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists. Again, recent discussion was away from switchlists. Takes the planning out of it. You "want" your operators to screw up and have to correct things and learn from experience. With a switch list, they are just following a bunch of directions. No surprises. > They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but they're > more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a stack of > car cards for a 50 car train?). I would think a 50 car train would not be doing much, if any, switching. They are most likely a through train. Use a train card or something. If the train needs broken down at its destination, the train card could be exchanged for car cards at that time, so the road crew doesn't have to carry a stack. Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm right! This thread is all about opinions. Let's keep it so and assume that nobody is an authority! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:47:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Ken Meyer of Bel Air, MD, Please Contact Me! From: Jerry Britton We talked at the convention about your Baltimore layout. Please e-mail me off-list so we can continue those talks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:51:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 9:41 AM, Phil Paskos (ppaskos@epix.net) wrote: > Remember that ancient Chinese proverb Jerry;It's your railroad. Do it your > way. > Agreed. But I'm not asking for advice. I'm trying to generate discussion among operators as to how they do it/prefer it. While we each have our own methods in mind, we can always unintentionally learn from others! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:19:10 +0000 My railroad will be a big dog bone between Zoo and Morrisville with the loops for staging. My plan is to have Morrisville yard service all westbound industry leads and Margie yard service all eastbound leads. That way trains delivering cars to the yards will in most cases have to traverse the entire railroad from the staging to deliver and pick up cars. Eastbounds go to Morris and westbounds to Margie. This will also require a crossover move for westbounds which will add to the dispatchers problems. One exception will be the ore car train servicing USX Fairless Hills which will run to Morris and be brought back to Fairless which is on the eastbound side. Another will be refrigerator cars from the south which I still have to work out. The other problem I have is most of the traffic to Margie will be from the north which I suspect will be unprototypical to a large degree but should be workable by choosing the right trains. I am also working through what to do about motive power locations. Margie didn't have road engine servicing. Morris did. I am really an opponent to large engine servicing facilities at this point since they take so much space - read roundhouse, etc. I think the only engine servicing will be at Morris with some light runs to Margie to obtain the cars to fill out the trains. This will also allow light moves back to Morris when trains are delivered to Margie. All crews will work out of Morris. Original plan called for 30th st. with the highline to end the visible portion which would have allowed for the Race St. engine pit but now I am thinking that the Schuylkill bridge will be the end with Zoo just off line so I can run east-west and north-south traffic. I think the main will be long enough to use tower operators. I am working on this weird idea of having a forced persepctive by having them look through mocked up windows at the rr. That is still in the idea stage though. Towers will be at least 30' apart so a 3:1 clock or possibly realtime shouldn't cause overdue stress on the towermen to chart trains and phone towers. Timing between the release of the through trains will have to be a field worked out solution. The really big problem is that the only stop for most of the passenger trains will be N. Phl. Don't know what to do about that though unless I would include 30th St. or Trenton which creates some other problems. > On 5/6/03 11:31 AM, Ray Breyer (rbreyer@cesinfo.com) wrote: > > > Stations have > > phones, and an engineer must phone in (either as the conductor for stopped > > trains, or as the station agent if running through) to announce the location > > of his train. A train doesn't MOVE unless it has a proper track warrant AND > > train orders. > > While prototypical, discussions with many others, including at the > convention, indicates this is often overkill and slows things down TOO much > (paperwork doesn't abide by a fast clock) and often drives away operators. > > I'm not sure what all I am going to implement. The several layouts I operate > on follow the same approach: A job opens. The dispatcher calls for a crew > and gives them their car cards. (In the case of a through train it will be a > single "train card".) They go to the yard and acquire their train and radio > the dispatcher for clearance. The dispatcher clears their route through "x". > As the train moves through the layout, the crew o/s's its location, stopping > at point "x" and reporting so if it has not since received orders to > continue. Track warrants/orders are not used. Works for both dark and > signaled situations. > > > As for movement of cars, I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists. > > Again, recent discussion was away from switchlists. Takes the planning out > of it. You "want" your operators to screw up and have to correct things and > learn from experience. With a switch list, they are just following a bunch > of directions. No surprises. > > > They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but they're > > more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a stack of > > car cards for a 50 car train?). > > I would think a 50 car train would not be doing much, if any, switching. > They are most likely a through train. Use a train card or something. If the > train needs broken down at its destination, the train card could be > exchanged for car cards at that time, so the road crew doesn't have to carry > a stack. Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm right! > > This thread is all about opinions. Let's keep it so and assume that nobody > is an authority! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:27:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 10:19 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I am also working through what to do about motive > power locations. Margie didn't have road engine servicing. Morris did. I am > really an opponent to large engine servicing facilities at this point since > they take so much space - read roundhouse, etc. What about the "air rights" above the end loops? Is that real estate already in use by industry? Loops are perfect locations for engine facilities! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:31:10 -0700 Hi Jerry, I love operating, and since I haven't had a layout in the past four years or so, I've been to as many OP sessions as I can. I'm a regular operator at three layouts, all large, freelance, steam-era HO. All three are dark (little or no signalling), and rely on TT or TT/TO operations. Having a time table for operating a model RR is a must. If nothing else, it gives everyone a basic sequence of events to run with. Timetables can be modified to fit any situation, but the basic pace of the layout is set with them, reducing stress & confusion. Time tables are especially useful for mega-layouts, since the passage of time and work can really be felt when you need to stick to the clock! TT/TO operations is also an interesting way to run a layout, but I'm not so sure that I'll be implementing it on my under-construction layout. For one thing, to truly get a feel for "proper" TT/TO, you need to have a large, curvy layout that blocks engineer's view of the entire line, reducing the cheating factor (if you can see the entire mainline, it's easy to stay out of other train's ways). The most involved operating sessions I've ever been to are on a 30x30 triple-deck layout. The line spans a complete division, with a large subdivision yard. Every concievable model RR job you can think of is included on this layout, including assistant dispatchers and turn and interchange engineers. At any one time, 10-15 trains are in motion (not bad for a block control DC layout!). A full timetable is in effect, controlled by train orders and track warrants. Two full time dispatchers and one asst. dispatcher (to run orders to stations) are working at an op session, and each yard has a yardmaster to supervise local movements. Stations have phones, and an engineer must phone in (either as the conductor for stopped trains, or as the station agent if running through) to announce the location of his train. A train doesn't MOVE unless it has a proper track warrant AND train orders. It's a bit hectic, and hard to learn from zero knowledge, but lots of fun and a real learning experience. >From my experiences, my layout will feature timetables with "special orders" tacked up for each train at each station (posted before an op session). Most of my territory will be dark, except for crossings and my main yard at Peoria. Peoria will be CTC, controlled by the Peoria Yardmaster/hostler, and the crossings will be controlled via a randomizer circuit a friend is designing to "randomly" control the signals at diamonds (to simulate other RR traffic). Since you'll be able to see the entire main line from any one spot, there's really no added bonus to operating fully TT/TO for me. As for movement of cars, I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists. They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but they're more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a stack of car cards for a 50 car train?). I'm researching various computerized systems now to see if any of them are simple and flexible enough for my tastes. Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 5:49 AM Subject: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts". For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I didn't think of. Through Train Engineer Way Freight Engineer Local Switcher Yard Hostler Dispatcher Tower Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. (Having operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!) Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:19:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Need Help Building Three N Scale Passenger Cars From: Jerry Britton N Scalers: At the Altoona convention in 1999, the Cincinnati Modelers Division brought in several HO scale passenger trains. Next year the convention will be on their turf. I intend to offer -- for display only -- an accurate N scale passenger consist. Due to the availability of kits -- and current lack of a Budd roof for some cars -- I have chosen the Juniata, train #72. The consist is based directly from the PRR's own "Makeup of Trains: New York Division" from 1954. It will include (8) B60b's (Hell Gate Models), (2) B60b Express Messengers (Hell Gate Models), (1) BM70k (Hell Gate Models), (2) P70GSR's (East Wind Manufacturing), (1) 28-1 Parlor, (1) Coffee Shop Tavern, and (1) P70 Scheme 6. I am looking for contract/donated help on the following cars... * 28-1 Parlor * Coffee Shop Tavern (I don't even know what class it should be) * P70 Scheme 6 While I won't be counting rivets, I want the models to appear accurate, perhaps with minimal interiors. Even road numbers would be selected to be accurate. I plan to display the train with background materials including the "Makeup of Trains" entry, its timetable, and details on each car. Any experienced heavyweight modelers out there want to get involved? (11 months and counting...) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:59:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Help Building Three N Scale Passenger Cars Jerry Sez: >I intend to offer -- for display only -- an accurate N scale >passenger consist. snip >Any experienced heavyweight modelers out there want to get involved? > >(11 months and counting...) While talk is cheap and the timeframe lengthy...I sense a challenge. Why don't we PRR-talk modelers try to bring a number of "complete trains"? My two favorites...MD-58/59 and 668/669 seem to be within my grasp ! All I need is a first run Riv PRR RPO (BM70nb) to backdate to a BM70n. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:07:56 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads --------------030108080802030105090303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry/all: >While prototypical, discussions with many others, including at the >convention, indicates this is often overkill and slows things down TOO much >(paperwork doesn't abide by a fast clock) and often drives away operators. > > I think the key here is to keep the operators busy. If they are standing around, waiting for a dispatcher (or someone else) to fill out paperwork, they will get bored... The same applies if trains stop and wait for too long waiting for clearance (reasonable waits are fine, when it gets to be 20 to 30 minutes, they get frustrated... If the traffic level is such that there is time to fill out all the paperwork, I don't think anybody would mind at all. I should point out that I have heard frustration from PROTOTYPE engineers who come to a red signal and are told they have a two hour wait, but stay by the radio in case something changes. There was a question as to whether they could take a "cat nap" while waiting as long as someone is awake in the cab. Some RR's had this against the rules. I've found on the model that any wait over about 10 minutes starts to get annoying... >I'm not sure what all I am going to implement. The several layouts I operate >on follow the same approach: A job opens. The dispatcher calls for a crew >and gives them their car cards. (In the case of a through train it will be a >single "train card".) They go to the yard and acquire their train and radio >the dispatcher for clearance. The dispatcher clears their route through "x". >As the train moves through the layout, the crew o/s's its location, stopping >at point "x" and reporting so if it has not since received orders to >continue. Track warrants/orders are not used. Works for both dark and >signaled situations. > Actually, my op groups way of thinking is that you are getting a warrant/orders... BUT, it is verbal, not written. Why? Because we don't want all the crews walking back to the dispatcher all the time and don't want the dispatcher walking to the crews (very un-prototypical practice)... In theory, the dispatcher is transmitting the orders for the warrant and the crew is writing them down (although nobody actually writes). If you want to take it a step further, only allow a train to call at a tower where the engineer becomes a tower operator, copying down orders for the engineer and "hooping them up". Of course, that's all the same person wearing different hats... To simplify, we just allow the engineer to contact the dispatcher for further orders at any time (via radio)... > > > >>As for movement of cars, I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists. >> >> > >Again, recent discussion was away from switchlists. Takes the planning out >of it. You "want" your operators to screw up and have to correct things and >learn from experience. With a switch list, they are just following a bunch >of directions. No surprises. > > To me, switchlists and TT/TO work well together. Switchlists have a problem when you get to the more "flexible" (read as: less structured) style operations I/most other operators in this area use. Of course, I am assuming pre-printed switchlists. If they could be made by the yardmaster (YM) as the train is being made up, this becomes a non-issue. At that point the issue is making sure the YM has time to make up switchlists. Overall, I'd prefer a switchlist for locals. But, the problem is simply you need to know WHEN every car is going to arrive in a yard in order to know whether it makes a connection or not. If not sure, you have to hold the car. I do not run the exact same schedule any two sessions. I use it as a guide and adjust it on the fly depending upon traffic on the railroad (no reason to send the 4th train to wait to get into a certain yard when another yard has nothing to do). Because of this, it would be very hard to be sure what cars would make a certain connection in the middle of the session. It also would force more work on the YM because now, in addition to getting the right cars to the right locations, he also has to get them on the right trains, in the right order... Prototypical? Yes. More time-consuming? Definitely. Is this time the YM has? On my layout, no. So, that is the trade-off I made... > > >>They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but they're >>more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a stack of >>car cards for a 50 car train?). >> >> I don't mean to offend here, but ever hear of a "rubber band"... If it's a 50 car local, I want to see the size of your layout. If it's a thru train, rubber band or binder clip the cards together and even if they're dropped, they won't be messed up. The YM at the other end of the run can easily remove the rubber band and sort the cars... >I would think a 50 car train would not be doing much, if any, switching. >They are most likely a through train. Use a train card or something. If the >train needs broken down at its destination, the train card could be >exchanged for car cards at that time, so the road crew doesn't have to carry >a stack. Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm right! > A layout I visited this past weekend uses "carpenters aprons" for the operators to carry car cards, etc.... Solved the problem... >This thread is all about opinions. Let's keep it so and assume that nobody >is an authority! > I agree totally and I recognize that the above is my opinion and should be given no more import than that. I think one issue here is (and Jerry touched on this earlier) that there are different emphasis on different layouts and what works great for one may not work at all for another... It also depends on how much flexibility you want/need in operations. I have adjusted my operations several times based on the amount of available free-time of YM's and the dispatcher. You can only do so much in the given time. At least, that's my opinion... I could be wrong... Jeff Warner --------------030108080802030105090303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry/all:


While prototypical, discussions with many others, including at the

convention, indicates this is often overkill and slows things down TOO much

(paperwork doesn't abide by a fast clock) and often drives away operators.
I think the key here is to keep the operators busy.  If they are standing around, waiting for a dispatcher (or someone else) to fill out paperwork, they will get bored...  The same applies if trains stop and wait for too long waiting for clearance (reasonable waits are fine, when it gets to be 20 to 30 minutes, they get frustrated...  If the traffic level is such that there is time to fill out all the paperwork, I don't think anybody would mind at all.  I should point out that I have heard frustration from PROTOTYPE engineers who come to a red signal and are told they have a two hour wait, but stay by the radio in case something changes.  There was a question as to whether they could take a "cat nap" while waiting as long as someone is awake in the cab.  Some RR's had this against the rules.  I've found on the model that any wait over about 10 minutes starts to get annoying...

I'm not sure what all I am going to implement. The several layouts I operate

on follow the same approach: A job opens. The dispatcher calls for a crew

and gives them their car cards. (In the case of a through train it will be a

single "train card".) They go to the yard and acquire their train and radio

the dispatcher for clearance. The dispatcher clears their route through "x".

As the train moves through the layout, the crew o/s's its location, stopping

at point "x" and reporting so if it has not since received orders to

continue. Track warrants/orders are not used. Works for both dark and

signaled situations.
Actually, my op groups way of thinking is that you are getting a warrant/orders...  BUT, it is verbal, not written.  Why?  Because we don't want all the crews walking back to the dispatcher all the time and don't want the dispatcher walking to the crews (very un-prototypical practice)...  In theory, the dispatcher is transmitting the orders for the warrant and the crew is writing them down (although nobody actually writes).  If you want to take it a step further, only allow a train to call at a tower where the engineer becomes a tower operator, copying down orders for the engineer and "hooping them up".  Of course, that's all the same person wearing different hats...  To simplify, we just allow the engineer to contact the dispatcher for further orders at any time (via radio)...  



  
As for movement of cars, I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists.

    


Again, recent discussion was away from switchlists. Takes the planning out

of it. You "want" your operators to screw up and have to correct things and

learn from experience. With a switch list, they are just following a bunch

of directions. No surprises.
To me, switchlists and TT/TO work well together.  Switchlists have a problem when you get to the more "flexible" (read as:  less structured) style operations I/most other operators in this area use.  Of course, I am assuming pre-printed switchlists.  If they could be made by the yardmaster (YM) as the train is being made up, this becomes a non-issue.  At that point the issue is making sure the YM has time to make up switchlists.  Overall, I'd prefer a switchlist for locals.  But, the problem is simply you need to know WHEN every car is going to arrive in a yard in order to know whether it makes a connection or not.  If not sure, you have to hold the car.  I do not run the exact same schedule any two sessions.  I use it as a guide and adjust it on the fly depending upon traffic on the railroad (no reason to send the 4th train to wait to get into a certain yard when another yard has nothing to do).  Because of this, it would be very hard to be sure what cars would make a certain connection in the middle of the session.  It also would force more work on the YM because now, in addition to getting the right cars to the right locations, he also has to get them on the right trains, in the right order...  Prototypical?  Yes.  More time-consuming?  Definitely.  Is this time the YM has?  On my layout, no.   So, that is the trade-off I made...

  
They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but they're

more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a stack of

car cards for a 50 car train?).
I don't mean to offend here, but ever hear of a "rubber band"...  If it's a 50 car local, I want to see the size of your layout.  If it's a  thru train, rubber band or binder clip the cards together and even if they're dropped, they won't be messed up.  The YM at the other end of the run can easily remove the rubber band and sort the cars...

I would think a 50 car train would not be doing much, if any, switching.

They are most likely a through train. Use a train card or something. If the

train needs broken down at its destination, the train card could be

exchanged for car cards at that time, so the road crew doesn't have to carry

a stack. Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm right!
A layout I visited this past weekend uses "carpenters aprons" for the operators to carry car cards, etc....  Solved the problem...

This thread is all about opinions. Let's keep it so and assume that nobody

is an authority!
I agree totally and I recognize that the above is my opinion and should be given no more import than that.  I think one issue here is (and Jerry touched on this earlier) that there are different emphasis on different layouts and what works great for one may not work at all for another...    It also depends on how much flexibility you want/need in operations.  I have adjusted my operations several times based on the amount of available free-time of YM's and the dispatcher.  You can only do so much in the given time.

At least, that's my opinion... I could be wrong...

Jeff Warner
--------------030108080802030105090303-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:25:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Help Building Three N Scale Passenger Cars I said: >All I need is a first run Riv PRR RPO (BM70nb) to backdate to a BM70n. Actually, I REALLY need a 30' or 15' RPO car, but that may be really wishful thinking! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:37:20 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Help Building Three N Scale Passenger Cars The 30' is a BM70k and no one makes it in HO :-( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > I said: > >All I need is a first run Riv PRR RPO (BM70nb) to backdate to a BM70n. > > Actually, I REALLY need a 30' or 15' RPO car, but that may be really > wishful thinking! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:05:34 -0400 Jerry: I have a job assignment as the "East Altoona Enginehouse Foreman". This position serves as the hostler that works the power changes at Altoona. At Altoona yard, there is a Yardmaster and two yard crews that report to him. One is responsible for the setouts and adding of cars to the symbol freights, (done at the west end), and the other is responsible for classification, done at the east end. (Jeff Warner normally does the Yardmaster's task and ALWAYS says that he needs more help. ) BTW, why don't you come out to another session some time. We've come a long way since your visit in 2000. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:49 AM Subject: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads > If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is > a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, > I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts". > > For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or > hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll > suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I > didn't think of. > > Through Train Engineer - Whether it be passenger or freight, this job is to > run a train through the layout, mostly non-stop. Probably an ideal job for > the "rail fan". > > Way Freight Engineer - Take a small train out on the layout and drop > off/pick up cars. Not overly involved, but some activity. > > Local Switcher - Larger switching areas often have dedicated switchers. This > involves a lot of switching, planning moves, switch-backs, etc. > > Yard - Assembling a disassembling trains per car cards. Very fast paced, but > usually straightforward. > > Hostler - Works with the yard to get power to/from trains. > > Dispatcher - Plans movements over the main line. Very analytical. Must think > 15 minutes ahead (or more). May assume the role of tower operators for the > entire system, depending on set-up. May or may not be computerized. > > Tower - A subset of the dispatcher's role. Sets alignments through a > specific territory. On a model railroad, one tower may/probably controls > several interlockings. May or may not be computerized. > > I've heard people comment on layouts they've been to and they didn't like > them because they were "all switching", "not enough switching", etc. I hope > to provide a little of everything. My one switching area will be a monster > (Harrisburg freight station and REA area). > > Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and > radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. (Having > operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:39:58 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Larry Reynolds wrote: >(Jeff Warner normally does the Yardmaster's task and ALWAYS says that he needs more help. ) > Which really is a good point... I also say I need crossovers between the number 1 and 2 mains on the east end of the yard. Something I learned from my own op sessions -- listen to your YMs and give them what they want if reasonable. If you aren't operating the yard during the op session, you may not realize how much a minor improvement like a crossover can help (this was the case with my own Enola yard). True, different YMs may run the yard differently and may have different likes and needs. True, the YM has to do the best job he can with what is available. BUT, if you want the yard to work efficiently, listen to the YMs and the operators. This same thing applies anywhere on the model. The crews, even inexperienced ones, know what would make their job easier. (LARRY: is that crossover in yet????) There can be such a thing as too much help. The YMs also know this. The way I like to run Larry's Altoona yard, 3 assistants (one on east end, one on west end classing cars and the engine hostler) works very well. (I operate the clip board). This yard is big enough to support this much help. If I put that many people at my Baltimore WM yard, they'd be tripping over each other and in each others way. Even at that, there are times I could have used another person (and did in one instance) to help shuttle some cars around for locals. To me, this comes back to flexibility. Larry also uses a schedule where you are never sure which train will come up next, but always know what the next 3 or 4 will be (out of order, perhaps). I don't see a problem with this, other than that if we were using TT/TO or switchlists. Other Altoona YM at Larry's layout may do things differently and work best with a different number of people... One final note: I have a optional position (depending upon the number of available operators) called "Enola Hostler" at my layout. If present, they report to the Enola YM and move locos around. He also does the switching at Marysville (which is adjacent to the yard). If not present, the YM still must do this work and may even ask road crews to move their own locos to another track or the engine facility. He has even asked for a temporary road crew to help out for a short period of time helping straighten things out. I am extremely lucky to have a person who likes to be the yard crew at Enola and has become extremely efficient at switching cars there... Whenever he has a suggestion, I listen. Sometimes, I even do what he suggested ;-) . My 2 cents. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:47:14 -0400 Jerry, One of the best ways to learn all the ins and outs of operating is to operate every chance you get on as many layouts as you can. Try every job you can qualify for, even if you think you may not be interested in them. I've learned an awful lot that way and found my real operating interests turned out to be a bit different than I originally expected. The one thing I knew from the start though is that I hated (and still hate) paperwork and tight time schedules - had more than plenty of that in a 40 year career in industry. Don't need it in retirement in my hobbies. But some folks are just the opposite and really take to it. I've found plenty of jobs on big layouts that suit me fine with a minimum of paperwork and hustle. Just one SPF's opinion, mind you! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads I'm not a big fan of switching layouts. It's fun to watch but I'd rather operate through freights. As a regular operator on Ken Rideout's layout, I pretty much run eastbound freights. I have run e/b passenger trains but getting in to Altoona station is tough without signals and a constant flow of westbounds coming at you. Most of all, I just want to have fun. Guess I'm just a big kid. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:50:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 5:39 PM, "Jeff Warner" wrote: > Which really is a good point... I also say I need crossovers between > the number 1 and 2 mains on the east end of the yard. Something I > learned from my own op sessions -- listen to your YMs and give them what > they want if reasonable. If you aren't operating the yard during the op > session, you may not realize how much a minor improvement like a > crossover can help (this was the case with my own Enola yard). True, > different YMs may run the yard differently and may have different likes > and needs. True, the YM has to do the best job he can with what is > available. BUT, if you want the yard to work efficiently, listen to > the YMs and the operators. This same thing applies anywhere on the > model. The crews, even inexperienced ones, know what would make their > job easier. (LARRY: is that crossover in yet????) > Hear, hear! I operate on Bob Martin's layout. He gives you a "funny look" when you suggest changes. But he really listens. I suggested a somewhat involved change and within a month he moved the passenger ready tracks to the opposite site of the yard and moved the cabin tracks and moved the arrival track! Works much better now, though we're still fine tuning it. But more trains are moving! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:54:20 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR building roof question Hello, all, I'm in the process of modeling a number of PRR building for my HO layout - a station, passenger shelter, and two interlocking towers, all on the Middle Div. Now in studying photos of the prototypes, I noticed that many of them had what looks like a facia/gutter attached along the eaves of the roofs. Has anyone got a suggestion for how to model this detail? Is there a milled type of wood that would look right? These are not going to be contest models but on the other hand I would like a plausible gutter. Your thoughts? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:37:24 -0400 From: Mike Subject: [PRR] pennsy power book This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_wm//+xWwWDvxdjkg3oJ47Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello all! I have a question for the group, I just bought a copy of "Penny Power III" and I can't put it down! I understand there are 2 other books in this series, I & II. I can order volume I, but I see volume II can't be found, I'll look on the used book sites, my question is this; I'm mainly interested in the electrics and diesels of the Pennsy, not so much steam (sorry, please don't yell!), which volume, I or II, cover those two subjects better? I seem to remember the first book was almost all steam. Thanks to all. Mike --Boundary_(ID_wm//+xWwWDvxdjkg3oJ47Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all!

 

I have a question for = the group,=20 I just bought a copy of =93Penny Power III=94 and I can=92t put it down! = I understand=20 there are 2 other books in this series, I & II. I can order volume = I, but I=20 see volume II can=92t be found, I=92ll look on the used book sites, my = question is=20 this; I=92m mainly interested in the electrics and diesels of the = Pennsy, not so=20 much steam (sorry, please don=92t yell!), which volume, I or II, cover = those two=20 subjects better? I seem to remember the first book was almost all steam. = Thanks=20 to all.

 

 

Mike

--Boundary_(ID_wm//+xWwWDvxdjkg3oJ47Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] PRR Obs in AZ Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:40:46 -0400 I was coming East on Amtrak #4, passing through Winslow, AZ last Thursday, May 5. I could not believe my eyes when I spotted, sitting on a siding, what appears to be a PRR Obs in good condition. It is a blunt end car like Mountain View or Tower View. I could not read the name. I shot some slides but they are in processing now. Does anyone know anything re this car? Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:45:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Obs in AZ From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 09:40 PM, Fred Rea wrote: > I was coming East on Amtrak #4, passing through Winslow, AZ last > Thursday, > May 5. I could not believe my eyes when I spotted, sitting on a > siding, > what appears to be a PRR Obs in good condition. It is a blunt end car > like > Mountain View or Tower View. I could not read the name. I shot some > slides but they are in processing now. > > Does anyone know anything re this car? > Mountain View and Tower View are both accounted for. Possibly one of the similar POS211 cars that ran on the other Blue RIbbon trains, such as the Liberty Limited. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:56:21 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Help Building Three N Scale Passenger Cars At the convention there was a BM70K in the model room, built from A J.C.Silversides kit. If you look these old kits are still available. Garry Spear Andrew S. Miller wrote: > The 30' is a BM70k and no one makes it in HO :-( > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > > >>I said: >> >>>All I need is a first run Riv PRR RPO (BM70nb) to backdate to a BM70n. >> >>Actually, I REALLY need a 30' or 15' RPO car, but that may be really >>wishful thinking! >> >>Happy Rails >>Bruce >> >>Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:01:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book In a message dated 5/6/03 8:50:12 PM Central Daylight Time, mcapone@optonline.net writes: << I'm mainly interested in the electrics and diesels of the Pennsy, not so much steam (sorry, please don't yell!), which volume, I or II, cover those two subjects better? >> Volume II is what you want. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:21:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3141D.E34EB860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Volume 1 covered steam and electric. Volume II has some steam, some = electric, MU cars, and all of PRR's Diesels. I dont't have Volume III, = but understand it is an expanded Volume II, which is why II has not been = reprinted. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: [PRR] pennsy power book Hello all! =20 I have a question for the group, I just bought a copy of "Penny Power = III" and I can't put it down! I understand there are 2 other books in = this series, I & II. I can order volume I, but I see volume II can't be = found, I'll look on the used book sites, my question is this; I'm mainly = interested in the electrics and diesels of the Pennsy, not so much steam = (sorry, please don't yell!), which volume, I or II, cover those two = subjects better? I seem to remember the first book was almost all steam. = Thanks to all. =20 =20 Mike ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3141D.E34EB860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
 
Volume 1 covered steam and electric. Volume II has = some steam,=20 some electric, MU cars, and all of PRR's Diesels. I dont't have Volume = III, but=20 understand it is an expanded Volume II, which is why II has not been=20 reprinted.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 = 9:37 PM
Subject: [PRR] pennsy power = book

Hello all!

 

I have a question = for the=20 group, I just bought a copy of =93Penny Power III=94 and I can=92t put = it down! I=20 understand there are 2 other books in this series, I & II. I can = order=20 volume I, but I see volume II can=92t be found, I=92ll look on the = used book=20 sites, my question is this; I=92m mainly interested in the electrics = and diesels=20 of the Pennsy, not so much steam (sorry, please don=92t yell!), which = volume, I=20 or II, cover those two subjects better? I seem to remember the first = book was=20 almost all steam. Thanks to all.

 

 

Mike

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3141D.E34EB860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:29:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Wrap Up --part1_171.1e330e31.2be9c985_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too was there and enjoyed meeting some of the folks who contribute regularly to these conversations. Jerry, it seemed to me you were always ensconced in a fairly involved conversation with someone. I apologize for not breaking in and introducing myself. Perhaps next time I'll act a little more boldly. I did enjoy several in-depth conversations, especially with some individuals who hold viewpoints that differ from my own. All enlightening experiences. I went to Juniata on the first outing Friday morning. I was one of the 'lost souls' on that wayward bus navigating haplessly through North Philadelphia. Bennett, your "open house" was superb and greatly appreciated. Thanks for your generosity. I too felt the vendors' area was a letdown but I also am very particular in what things I am interested in purchasing. I guess I should be thankful I didn't feel compelled to drop several paychecks at the scene. BTW, Jerry in case you missed my comment in earlier messages, I did finally break down and place a reservation through Merchandise Service for that BLI T1... It will be my birthday present to myself! I skipped the other tours since I can see Amtrak facilities anytime I choose, and the C&A was literally my back yard for many years. So I spent the day on Saturday "railfanning" (or should I say playing archeologist) along the old Schuylkill Division between Manayunk and Pottsville. I am using this piece of the Pennsy as inspiration for my own layout, although I am adding some fictional elements for my own amusement (e.g., extension of the electrification to Reading, etc.). While I had an enjoyable day in perfect weather, there were sparse remnants of the old PRR still intact enough to spot. Those that I could find were sometimes difficult if not impossible to get close to. Still, I took about 100 photographs of old PRR bridges, buildings and rights-of-way. The passenger stations at Conshohocken and Birdsboro are still there as are the freight stations in Birdsboro and Norristown. A number of impressive bridges (aside from the one at Manayunk) still span the Schuylkill River. And the ancient, adjacent Schuylkill Canal is still evident in a number of places as well. I must have walked at least 20-30 miles of right-of-way, most of it having been (or in the process of being) converted to a hiking/biking trail. I really wanted to see the tunnel between Pottsville and St. Clair but I couldn't get to it. Anyone interested in the Reading Company would benefit from such a trip as there is much more of that railroad still intact between Philadelphia and Pottsville. The Blue Mountain and Reading Railroad as well as the Reading Historical Society both have pockets of vintage equipment tucked away all up and down the old Reading Route. Some of it is even still used out of the Port Clinton station for excursion service. Sunday was layout tour day and I felt like I drove wildly all over southeastern PA to see as many as possible! Unfortunately, I did miss a few as I couldn't do them all between 12pm and 5pm. Hopefully, I'll get another opportunity in the future to see those pikes that I missed this past weekend. All in all I had a great time. I look forward to Cincinnati!! Chris Baker #1918 --part1_171.1e330e31.2be9c985_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I too was there and enjoyed meeting some of the folks=20= who contribute regularly to these conversations.  Jerry, it seemed to m= e you were always ensconced in a fairly involved conversation with someone.&= nbsp; I apologize for not breaking in and introducing myself.  Perhaps=20= next time I'll act a little more boldly.  I did enjoy several in-depth=20= conversations, especially with some individuals who hold viewpoints that dif= fer from my own.  All enlightening experiences. 

I went to Juniata on the first outing Friday morning.  I was one of the= 'lost souls' on that wayward bus navigating haplessly through North Philade= lphia.  Bennett, your "open house" was superb and greatly appreciated.&= nbsp; Thanks for your generosity.

I too felt the vendors' area was a letdown but I also am very particular in=20= what things I am interested in purchasing.  I guess I should be thankfu= l I didn't feel compelled to drop several paychecks at the scene.  BTW,= Jerry in case you missed my comment in earlier messages, I did finally brea= k down and place a reservation through Merchandise Service for that BLI T1..= .  It will be my birthday present to myself!

I skipped the other tours since I can see Amtrak facilities anytime I choose= , and the C&A was literally my back yard for many years.  So I spen= t the day on Saturday "railfanning" (or should I say playing archeologist) a= long the old Schuylkill Division between Manayunk and Pottsville.  I am= using this piece of the Pennsy as inspiration for my own layout, although I= am adding some fictional elements for my own amusement (e.g., extension of=20= the electrification to Reading, etc.).  While I had an enjoyable day in= perfect weather, there were sparse remnants of the old PRR still intact eno= ugh to spot.  Those that I could find were sometimes difficult if not i= mpossible to get close to.  Still, I took about 100 photographs of old=20= PRR bridges, buildings and rights-of-way.  The passenger stations at Co= nshohocken and Birdsboro are still there as are the freight stations in Bird= sboro and Norristown.  A number of impressive bridges (aside from the o= ne at Manayunk) still span the Schuylkill River.  And the ancient, adja= cent Schuylkill Canal is still evident in a number of places as well. =20= I must have walked at least 20-30 miles of right-of-way, most of it having b= een (or in the process of being) converted to a hiking/biking trail.  I= really wanted to see the tunnel between Pottsville and St. Clair but I coul= dn't get to it.

Anyone interested in the Reading Company would benefit from such a trip as t= here is much more of that railroad still intact between Philadelphia and Pot= tsville.  The Blue Mountain and Reading Railroad as well as the Reading= Historical Society both have pockets of vintage equipment tucked away all u= p and down the old Reading Route.  Some of it is even still used out of= the Port Clinton station for excursion service.

Sunday was layout tour day and I felt like I drove wildly all over southeast= ern PA to see as many as possible!  Unfortunately, I did miss a few as=20= I couldn't do them all between 12pm and 5pm.  Hopefully, I'll get anoth= er opportunity in the future to see those pikes that I missed this past week= end.

All in all I had a great time.  I look forward to Cincinnati!!

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_171.1e330e31.2be9c985_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:34:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book In a message dated 5/6/03 9:24:29 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << I dont't have Volume III, but understand it is an expanded Volume II, which is why II has not been reprinted. >> No offense to you, Gregg, but I have no idea how this rumor started, though it is commonly circulated. There is zero overlap between my Volume II and Volume III. Perhaps someone who has a latest edition of Volume III can comment whether there has now been a change that contradicts my experience . Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:53:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads --part1_1d1.9047d88.2be9f965_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry; First, thanks for starting a thread that I think will create a lot of interest and bring forth a variety of viewpoints. What I think you will find though is that for as many modelers are out there, there are as many views as to what makes the 'perfect layout'. One thing is for sure though - no matter how you plan your layout, once you start operating it, your operators will suggest 'improvements' to your plan or your philosophy. Do listen to them since they are the ones that collectively are trying to make your layout run smoothy and be enjoyable. You will get a variety of views and suggestions that will provide a range of ideas for you and will result in a more enjoyable layout for all. As for me, I just love operating! I enjoy just about any job on the railroad, but I suppose operating way frieghts or locals is my passion. I enjoy the challenge of switching various areas. Dispatching is another area that I enjoy and am a regular dispatcher at a layout I operate at. As for the method used for car fowarding, this is an area I've looked into quite a bit for my own layout. I used to think that a computer generated switch list would be the best way to go, providing for 'automation' and a more random routing of cars. But as someone else said, paperwork can get boring and for me, the between the sessions set up that most of these 'switch list' systems requires is more work than I care to put into it. I want to run trains, not do paperwork. I have found that the car-card system is the most flexable and most forgiving. We use it at all the local layouts I operate on. It seems everyone uses their own version of it, but the principle remains the same. Some of the benefits are: there is little or no 'pre-op-session' set up involved, it provides a nice random and flexable routing of cars and is very forgiving. If a car gets mis-routed or lost, just set the car or card aside and the problem fixes itself. With a computer based system, it doesn't know the car was misplaced and tends to be very rigid in this manner. And god forbid you decide to run trains between sessions without running the computer routine! Now you have to go in a coordinate the computer with the actual car locations. The bottom line is this; plan your layout for yourself first. Incorporate the jobs you enjoy the most and the car forwarding system you prefer. Begin operating as soon as possible and don't be afraid to make changes. As you operate, you will develop ideas, make changes and eventually 'tweak' the layout into a smooth operating railroad. Most important... have fun! Mark In a message dated 5/6/03 8:54:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or > hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll > suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I > didn't think of. > --part1_1d1.9047d88.2be9f965_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry;

First, thanks for starting a thread that I think will create a lot of intere= st and bring forth a variety of viewpoints.  What I think you will find= though is that for as many modelers are out there, there are as many views=20= as to what makes the 'perfect layout'.  One thing is for sure though -=20= no matter how you plan your layout, once you start operating it, your operat= ors will suggest 'improvements' to your plan or your philosophy.  Do li= sten to them since they are the ones that collectively are trying to make yo= ur layout run smoothy and be enjoyable.  You will get a variety of view= s and suggestions that will provide a range of ideas for you and will result= in a more enjoyable layout for all.

As for me, I just love operating!  I enjoy just about any job on the ra= ilroad, but I suppose operating way frieghts or locals is my passion. =20= I enjoy the challenge of switching various areas.  Dispatching is anoth= er area that I enjoy and am a regular dispatcher at a layout I operate at.
As for the method used for car fowarding, this is an area I've looked into q= uite a bit for my own layout.  I used to think that a computer generate= d switch list would be the best way to go, providing for 'automation' and a=20= more random routing of cars.  But as someone else said, paperwork can g= et boring and for me, the between the sessions set up that most of these 'sw= itch list' systems requires is more work than I care to put into it.  I= want to run trains, not do paperwork. 

I have found that the car-card system is the most flexable and most forgivin= g.  We use it at all the local layouts I operate on.  It seems eve= ryone uses their own version of it, but the principle remains the same. = ; Some of the benefits are: there is little or no 'pre-op-session' set up in= volved, it provides a nice random and flexable routing of cars and is very f= orgiving.  If a car gets mis-routed or lost, just set the car or card a= side and the problem fixes itself.  With a computer based system, it do= esn't know the car was misplaced and tends to be very rigid in this manner.&= nbsp; And god forbid you decide to run trains between sessions without runni= ng the computer routine!  Now you have to go in a coordinate the comput= er with the actual car locations.

The bottom line is this; plan your layout for yourself first.  Incorpor= ate the jobs you enjoy the most and the car forwarding system you prefer.&nb= sp; Begin operating as soon as possible and don't be afraid to make changes.=   As you operate, you will develop ideas, make changes and eventually '= tweak' the layout into a smooth operating railroad.  Most important...=20= have fun!

Mark


In a message dated 5/6/03 8:54:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.c= om writes:


For those of you who own operat= ing layouts, operate on other's layouts, or
hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll
suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I didn't think of.


 --part1_1d1.9047d88.2be9f965_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 06:15:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book From: Jerry Britton On 5/6/03 10:34 PM, "Bobspf@aol.com" wrote: > In a message dated 5/6/03 9:24:29 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net > writes: > > << I dont't have Volume III, but understand it is an expanded Volume II, > which is why II has not been reprinted. >> > > No offense to you, Gregg, but I have no idea how this rumor started, though > it is commonly circulated. There is zero overlap between my Volume II and > Volume III. Perhaps someone who has a latest edition of Volume III can > comment whether there has now been a change that contradicts my experience . > Al Stauffer, the author, himself states that III was a redone II. For that reason, he says II will never be reprinted. He stated the above directly to me. I sell his products and have a direct wholesale account. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:30:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Try a different switchlisting for your car movement... --part1_17f.1aada8a2.2bea486b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As has been said before, considerable loyalty has built up to several car movement schemes. To be honest, a modeler's idea of a "good" car movement system is usually the one in use in his vicinity, so I know some will not like the system described below -- so be it. After 40 years in the hobby, I feel that virtually any car movement system is fun -- but some are more work than others for the layout owner. Life can become much simpler if we give up on some of the "traffic modeling" aspects of rail operations and focus on where we're trying to move cars to. In other words, if we ignore lading and origination info, we can give the operating department a much simpler job -- moving cars toward their destinations. In a message dated 5/6/03 9:42:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >>As for movement of cars, I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists. > >> > >> > > > >Again, recent discussion was away from switchlists. Takes the planning out > >of it. You "want" your operators to screw up and have to correct things > and > >learn from experience. With a switch list, they are just following a bunch > >of directions. No surprises. > > The above assumption, naturally, is that "switchlists" are always "work orders". I tend to agree that work orders (think of Ship It), listing the cars to pick up and the cars to set out by individual train, treat the operators as idiots. They also lock you into inflexible train "schedules". There is another family of switchlisting called "destination switchlisting". Used in Cincinnati and Louisville, these documents specify only ending destination for a car at the end of the "day". When you work a local list (where you can only see one town or portion of a layout), you set out what's listed there and are allowed to pick up cars not listed, subject to your engine's tonnage rating. Cars not belonging on that part of the layout are delivered to the yard, where an alpha listing of all car numbers shows how a car should be classified/routed onto a through train or another local. BTW, the local leaves each "local list" behind at the town in question, ready to guide the next local or even through train "setting out". The real value of such a system (and there are several ways to generate the lists) is: 1. Operation continues on that "day's" set of lists until all cars have been spotted/dispatched. On a large layout, this has been as long as three operating sessions. 2. Individual car movement is absolutely independent of what trains are run, and in what order. 3. Original location of any car is irrelevant -- only the destination matters. 4. Once a "day's" set of lists works right and has been run to conclusion, you may file that "day" and bring it out later to use again. You might keep in file between three and thirty "days" of switch lists. This cuts 'way down on setup time. > > > To me, switchlists and TT/TO work well together. Switchlists have a > problem when you get to the more "flexible" (read as: less structured) > style operations I/most other operators in this area use. Of course, I > am assuming pre-printed switchlists. If they could be made by the > yardmaster (YM) as the train is being made up, this becomes a non-issue. > At that point the issue is making sure the YM has time to make up > switchlists. Overall, I'd prefer a switchlist for locals. But, the > problem is simply you need to know WHEN every car is going to arrive in > a yard in order to know whether it makes a connection or not. If not > sure, you have to hold the car. I do not run the exact same schedule > any two sessions. I use it as a guide and adjust it on the fly > depending upon traffic on the railroad (no reason to send the 4th train > to wait to get into a certain yard when another yard has nothing to do). > Because of this, it would be very hard to be sure what cars would make > a certain connection in the middle of the session. It also would force > more work on the YM because now, in addition to getting the right cars > to the right locations, he also has to get them on the right trains, in > the right order... Prototypical? Yes. More time-consuming? > Definitely. Is this time the YM has? On my layout, no. So, that is > the trade-off I made... > > > > > > >>They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but > they're > >>more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a stack of > >>car cards for a 50 car train?). > >> > >> > I don't mean to offend here, but ever hear of a "rubber band"... If > it's a 50 car local, I want to see the size of your layout. If it's a > thru train, rubber band or binder clip the cards together and even if > they're dropped, they won't be messed up. The YM at the other end of > the run can easily remove the rubber band and sort the cars... > > >I would think a 50 car train would not be doing much, if any, switching. > >They are most likely a through train. Use a train card or something. If > the > >train needs broken down at its destination, the train card could be > >exchanged for car cards at that time, so the road crew doesn't have to > carry > >a stack. Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm right! > I was "raised" on car cards and waybills in Dayton. Of course, we also ran 13 car trains. It takes a lot of character not to lay car cards out on the scenery, etc. However, once a layout gets above 200 cars or so, the charm of car cards with detachable waybills fades for me -- it seemed the hobby had become card sorting and dropping more than moving cars. So my cards (yes, I've still got 'em) went into storage. We went right up to 800 cars on the Panhandle Route recently torn down, with trains of up to 30 cars arriving from staging, and the biggest problem we had was that the yard switch list got up to 3 pages wide -- if we'd shrunk the type any more, no one over 40 could have read it. This testifies to the power of a scheme that was originally invented by a friend of mine to drive a 60 car layout. The hassle with most car movement systems is that they require you to know where every car is at the beginning of the session -- with no mistakes. But in model railroading, trains get run between sessions. Cars get moved aside so construction or maintenance can be done. Sometimes cars even get taken off the layout for a while. Being able to operate regardless of starting car location is a big advantage. Car cards require that you synchronize the cars with car locations. Worse yet, computerized "permanent inventory" schemes like Ship It require you to synchronize the computer with car locations. Both require an immense effort before you can start running. On the other hand, destination switchlisting slashes setup time. And it's not even sensitive to new or visiting cars not listed in its paperwork -- the yard has the freedom to use unlisted cars as "no bills", and can use them to fill out a through train going anywhere off-layout. Lest I get messages about "where do I buy the program?", most installations of destination switchlisting are done without a computer. I've set up a number of these installations, and I really enjoy getting to the stage after a couple of sessions when the layout owner gets excited enough he starts modifying things on his own. A nice by-product of this owner input is that there aren't any two layouts that use destination switchlisting exactly the same. Hope I haven't totally confused all of you. I really like destination switchlisting, and hope to write a magazine article describing it in more detail... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17f.1aada8a2.2bea486b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As has been said before, considerable loyalty has buil= t up to several car movement schemes.  To be honest, a modeler's idea o= f a "good" car movement system is usually the one in use in his vicinity, so= I know some will not like the system described below -- so be it.  Aft= er 40 years in the hobby, I feel that virtually any car movement system is f= un -- but some are more work than others for the layout owner.

Life can become much simpler if we give up on some of the "traffic modeling"= aspects of rail operations and focus on where we're trying to move cars to.=   In other words, if we ignore lading and origination info, we can give= the operating department a much simpler job -- moving cars toward their des= tinations.

In a message dated 5/6/03 9:42:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.co= m writes:


>>As for movement of cars= , I'm toying with the idea of using switchlists.
>>   
>>
>
>Again, recent discussion was away from switchlists. Takes the planning o= ut
>of it. You "want" your operators to screw up and have to correct things=20= and
>learn from experience. With a switch list, they are just following a bun= ch
>of directions. No surprises.
> 


The above assumption, naturally, is that "switchlists" are always "work orde= rs".  I tend to agree that work orders (think of Ship It), listing the=20= cars to pick up and the cars to set out by individual train, treat the opera= tors as idiots.  They also lock you into inflexible train "schedules".<= BR>
There is another family of switchlisting called "destination switchlisting".=   Used in Cincinnati and Louisville, these documents specify only endin= g destination for a car at the end of the "day".  When you work a local= list (where you can only see one town or portion of a layout), you set out=20= what's listed there and are allowed to pick up cars not listed, subject to y= our engine's tonnage rating.  Cars not belonging on that part of the la= yout are delivered to the yard, where an alpha listing of all car numbers sh= ows how  a car should be classified/routed onto a through train or anot= her local.  BTW, the local leaves each "local list" behind at the town=20= in question, ready to guide the next local or even through train "setting ou= t".

The real value of such a system (and there are several ways to generate the=20= lists) is:

1.  Operation continues on that "day's" set of lists until all cars hav= e been spotted/dispatched.  On a large layout, this has been as long as= three operating sessions.
2.  Individual car movement is absolutely independent of what trains ar= e run, and in what order.
3.  Original location of any car is irrelevant -- only the destination=20= matters.
4.  Once a "day's" set of lists works right and has been run to conclus= ion, you may file that "day" and bring it out later to use again.  You=20= might keep in file between three and thirty "days" of switch lists.  Th= is cuts 'way down on setup time.

>
To me, switchlists and TT/TO work well together.  Switchlists have a problem when you get to the more "flexible" (read as:  less structured)=
style operations I/most other operators in this area use.  Of course, I=
am assuming pre-printed switchlists.  If they could be made by the
yardmaster (YM) as the train is being made up, this becomes a non-issue. At that point the issue is making sure the YM has time to make up
switchlists.  Overall, I'd prefer a switchlist for locals.  But, t= he
problem is simply you need to know WHEN every car is going to arrive in
a yard in order to know whether it makes a connection or not.  If not <= BR> sure, you have to hold the car.  I do not run the exact same schedule <= BR> any two sessions.  I use it as a guide and adjust it on the fly
depending upon traffic on the railroad (no reason to send the 4th train
to wait to get into a certain yard when another yard has nothing to do). Because of this, it would be very hard to be sure what cars would make
a certain connection in the middle of the session.  It also would force=
more work on the YM because now, in addition to getting the right cars
to the right locations, he also has to get them on the right trains, in
the right order...  Prototypical?  Yes.  More time-consuming?=
Definitely.  Is this time the YM has?  On my layout, no. &nbs= p; So, that is
the trade-off I made...

> 
>
>>They may need a little more work before a session to generate, but t= hey're
>>more flexible than car cards, and use up less paper (ever hold a sta= ck of
>>car cards for a 50 car train?).
>>   
>>
I don't mean to offend here, but ever hear of a "rubber band"...  If it's a 50 car local, I want to see the size of your layout.  If it's a=20=
thru train, rubber band or binder clip the cards together and even if
they're dropped, they won't be messed up.  The YM at the other end of <= BR> the run can easily remove the rubber band and sort the cars...

>I would think a 50 car train would not be doing much, if any, switching.=
>They are most likely a through train. Use a train card or something. If=20= the
>train needs broken down at its destination, the train card could be
>exchanged for car cards at that time, so the road crew doesn't have to c= arry
>a stack. Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm right!


I was "raised" on car cards and waybills in Dayton.  Of course, we also= ran 13 car trains.  It takes a lot of character not to lay car cards o= ut on the scenery, etc. However, once a layout gets above 200 cars or so, th= e charm of car cards with detachable waybills fades for me -- it seemed the=20= hobby had become card sorting and dropping more than moving cars.  So m= y cards (yes, I've still got 'em) went into storage.  We went right up=20= to 800 cars on the Panhandle Route recently torn down, with trains of up to=20= 30 cars arriving from staging, and the biggest problem we had was that the y= ard switch list got up to 3 pages wide -- if we'd shrunk the type any more,=20= no one over 40 could have read it.  This testifies to the power of a sc= heme that was originally invented by a friend of mine to drive a 60 car layo= ut.

The hassle with most car movement systems is that they require you to know w= here every car is at the beginning of the session -- with no mistakes. = But in model railroading, trains get run between sessions.  Cars get m= oved aside so construction or maintenance can be done.  Sometimes cars=20= even get taken off the layout for a while.  Being able to operate regar= dless of starting car location is a big advantage.

Car cards require that you synchronize the cars with car locations.  Wo= rse yet, computerized "permanent inventory" schemes like Ship It require you= to synchronize the computer with car locations.  Both require an immen= se effort before you can start running.  On the other hand, destination= switchlisting slashes setup time.  And it's not even sensitive to new=20= or visiting cars not listed in its paperwork -- the yard has the freedom to=20= use unlisted cars as "no bills", and can use them to fill out a through trai= n going anywhere off-layout.

Lest I get messages about "where do I buy the program?", most installations=20= of destination switchlisting are done without a computer.  I've set up=20= a number of these installations, and I really enjoy getting to the stage aft= er a couple of sessions when the layout owner gets excited enough he starts=20= modifying things on his own.  A nice by-product of this owner input is=20= that there aren't any two layouts that use destination switchlisting exactly= the same.

Hope I haven't totally confused all of you.  I really like destination=20= switchlisting, and hope to write a magazine article describing it in more de= tail...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_17f.1aada8a2.2bea486b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:38:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book In a message dated 5/7/03 5:15:34 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << He stated the above directly to me. I sell his products and have a direct wholesale account. >> I am at a loss to find a single duplicate photo or line of text from my 348 page Book II in my 500 page Book III. May be something I am missing (particularly text) , but the general statement stands: Book III does not include or duplicate Book II in even a remote way, except it is the Pennsylvania Railroad and obviously covers the same locomotive classes. For one thing, Book III is missing the valuable Book II fairly comprehensive roster shots of diesel models with build dates, road numbers, tractive effort, gearing and regearing statistics. The books may not be collectively exhaustive, but are close to mutually exclusive, resurrecting terms from my Quantitative Methods courses :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:45:00 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book Jerry says: >Al Stauffer, the author, himself states that III was a redone II. For that >reason, he says II will never be reprinted. > >He stated the above directly to me. I sell his products and have a direct >wholesale account. Bizzarre! IIRC is ZERO overlap between these two books WRT photos. PPIII has lots of additional stuff, like busses, marine equipment, and freight/passenger cars. As has been noted PPII covers steam, electrics (including MUs) and diseasels. PPII is an essential part of the collection of any SPF, and particularly those into electrics. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP 229's Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:01:40 +0000 Does the 1931 MP 229 (at the convention) show system wide assignments? Is this MP 229 available to the masses? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: r.r.farquharson@att.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com (PRR List) >Subject: [PRR] MP 229's >Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 02:15:48 +0000 > >Does anyone have a source for MP 229's for the Middle Division? I have >already >located ones for 1931 (at the recent PRRT&HS convention), and 1944 and 1954 >in >the Keystone Crossings archives. Am looking for data to fill in the gaps >between '31 and '44 and again between '44 and '54. Looking for road #'s >for >any H8,9,10's and M1,M1a,M1b assigned to the Middle Division. Any >assistance >appreciated. Thanks in advance. > >Bob Farquharson > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:36:38 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: [RM-forum] GG1 paint schemes Michel asks: >Hello all, >Broadway plans to release the following schemes for the GG1: On 4/30/03 (or 30/04/03 to you Michel) I answered for product #s 623, 625 and 626. I'll add the others here. >623 Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4905 1941-1952 for all motors-original scheme for 4911 and higher. >624 Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering, #4868 1955-into PC. Motors were slowly painted into this scheme. 4801 wore 5 stripes until 1974 >625 Tuscan Red / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4913 1952 - this scheme lasts MAYBE 6 months on #s 4908 through 4913. Locos assigned to Senator/Congo ONLY >626 Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering, #4862 -original scheme, lasts until mid 1941. #4911 and higher would have not gotten it. >627 Tuscan Red / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering, #4916 1955 - 195? two units, 4907 and 4916. Repainted in DGLE later in 50's >628 Silver / Broad Stripe, #4866 1955 - this scheme lasted less than a year, three motors 4866, 4872, & 4880 >629 Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4901 1952-1955(1974) Most motors were painted into this scheme as they came due for paint, and then slowly painted into single stripe after 1955. >630 Tuscan Red / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4929 1952 (late) 4908-4913 repainted from gold stripes 1953 4856, 4857, 4876 & 4929 added - all locos used exclusively on the Senator or Congo So, as you can see, the mid 50's were a busy time. As time went on, the rapidity with which a scheme was replaced declined dramatically, but in the early years, the changes were very quick. Hope this helps Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] pennsy power book Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:20:18 -0500 While there is little overlap, contrary to Stauffer's assertion in the front of Vol III, there are some duplicate pictures, and some were taken just before, or just after, the better pictures which appear in the first two volumes. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:35 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy power book In a message dated 5/6/03 9:24:29 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << I dont't have Volume III, but understand it is an expanded Volume II, which is why II has not been reprinted. >> No offense to you, Gregg, but I have no idea how this rumor started, though it is commonly circulated. There is zero overlap between my Volume II and Volume III. Perhaps someone who has a latest edition of Volume III can comment whether there has now been a change that contradicts my experience . Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:22:33 -0400 Gents, I've had the priviledge of operating on three layouts while helping develop a scheme for another. It's been quite fun and i've learned alot. because of this i've started to seriously plan what i would like to have my layout be. I'm only 19 but it's still good to start now. I'm planning on modeling the Northern Central in the early 1950's between Baltimore and York Haven. If there's more room in my basement i'll continue to Enola/Harrisburg. Using the track diagram i'm going to attempt to model every industry and siding. This would give me 6 railroad interchange options. The eastbound and westbound frederick banch through york, the Maryland & Pennsylvania interchange in York, the Western Maryland in York, the Western Maryland at Hanover Junction, and the Stewartstown Railroad at New Freedom. The grade will be modeled with New Freedom/Summit Hill being the high point of the railroad. If extra crew, helpers between York and Summit Hill will be run. Now for the car card and operational stance. As has been mentioned with switchlists and things, i won't use specific switch lists. A yardmaster will have orders to make a cut of__ cars for train__. The crew will choose their power and also choose from a deck of waybills for a given car type. Such that there would be a pile for boxcars, gon's, etc. the waybills will be separated for various destinations, so that if this is the crew for all westbound/northbound industry between Baltimore and Summit Hill they will choose waybills that have been written for that section of railroad. This gives operational flexibility and doesn't require the restaging of trains. power distribution may be required for trains that start the session but this scheme means that spoted cars will stay where they are until the next session when they are replaced or removed due to a crews train orders. This also means statistically that there will never be two operational sessions that are the same. this sounds a little confusing but i'm also a youngin' an have to work out some bugs in my system. Yours in railroading, John PS- Despite some bad reviews the recently published book by model railroader on operations has some good ideas, though i wouldn't suggest using it as an operational bible. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:42:12 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] more small RPOs Hi gang, Yesterday, Gary Mittner pointed out that the "mushroom train", MD-59/58 on the Octararo Branch ran with a PBM70 (that's a combine with baggage and mail sections!). At Gary's suggestion, I reviewed the Octararo Branch reprint and I found at least three photos of a PBM70 (two were on the same day in 1945). There is no mention of RPO service in the Octararo Branch reprint, however, the Keystone a few years back had a detailed report of RPO routes. The Philadelphia-Perryville RPO ran over the Octararo Branch and rated a 15' apartment! The route map indicates less than 0.5 cars per day. Here is my question - does anyone know when the Philadelphia-Perryville RPO was suspended? The confusing issue is that MD-59/58 seems to have run contemporaneously with consists of a B60 + PBM70 OR two PB70s. Two PB70s wouldn't have been used if an RPO was on the scedule! Did the RPO only run on certain days of the week and the PB70s handle the train on off days or was the PBM70 used since it was available and the PRO section was closed? Believe it or not, a model of the PBM70 was produced in brass, making it a viable car for the layout (if one can be found). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: RE: [PRR] G5s survivor locations Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:09:43 +0100 Doug, Hank & List, Many thanks for your responses. I have been offered a Westside Model of a LIRR G5 that someone has applied Pennsy loco number-5716 and PENNSYLVANIN on its tender, yes a Long Island tender!!! Not a bad paint job but still wrong. I now have a copy of Trains for October 73 and located a copy of 'Friends of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania' G5 Ten-Wheeler no 5741 leaflet. Next question! Has anyone made a PRR 70P82a tender and has anyone seen one for sale with out a loco on the front of it? Again many thanks for your help. Keep the List rolling along it is so useful on this side of the pond!! Kind regards James. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Kisala" > To: "James Lucas" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 7:37 AM > Subject: [PRR] PRR G5s with LIRR 110P82 tender > > > > James, > > > > Are you thinking of PRR G5s 5741? In October > 1955, > > she was leased briefly to the nearly-dieselized > LIRR > > and coupled to a 110P82 normally used with the > LIRR's > > G5s engines. This looks similar to the 110P70 > used by > > non-stoker fired K4s engines in the 20s and 30s. > > There's a picture in Ron Ziel's book Long Island > > Heritage. While out of print, it's readily > available > > at shows, and you may be able to get a copy > through > > interlibrary loan. > > > > Reunited with a more typical PRR G5s tender, the > 5741 > > now resides in the RR Museum of PA. > > > > Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] HORSESHOE CURVE (1946) in MS TRAIN SIMULATOR 2.0!!!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:19:28 +0000 Read on: http://www.train-sim.com/news/msts2507.htm _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroad Track Speeds Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:47:23 -0400 List Gize, Since we were on the topic of operating, does anyone enforce track speed for a certain section of thier layout during a session? Such as when i build mine, the Northern Central mainline does some brief street running in downtown York and the speed limit was 5 mph. Or, if somebody posted a maintnence crew on a certain section and reduces track speed for a block of track. Just tossing out a question and an idea. Yours, in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Williamsport Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:25:36 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C314CE.6F6F75E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me when the bridge that allowed trains to enter = Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? After that time how = and where were trains originating from Enola turned to go up the Elmira = Branch? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C314CE.6F6F75E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone tell me when the bridge that = allowed=20 trains to enter Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? = After that=20 time how and where were trains originating from Enola = turned to go up=20 the Elmira Branch?
 
Thanks
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS = #6703
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C314CE.6F6F75E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:03:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroad Track Speeds From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/03 5:47 PM, "John Frantz" wrote: > Since we were on the topic of operating, does anyone > enforce track speed for a certain section of thier layout > during a session? Such as when i build mine, the Northern > Central mainline does some brief street running in > downtown York and the speed limit was 5 mph. Or, if > somebody posted a maintnence crew on a certain section and > reduces track speed for a block of track. Just tossing out > a question and an idea. I haven't gotten that far, but there is a DCC product that monitors speed. Don't recall offhand who makes it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:04:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/03 4:42 PM, "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Here is my question - does anyone know when the Philadelphia-Perryville RPO > was suspended? > Check the ETT's. There is a section near the front, usually right after the passenger timetables, for "U.S. Mail Work". It's presence would assure that the/a car was there. It's absence would not diffinitively say otherwise. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Bruce, Here is a pic of my Cstom Brass PBM70. Sorry for the glare. No Sun today, so the flash was used.....Gary http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000932.jpg Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:10:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP 229's From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/03 11:01 AM, "Ted Andrews" wrote: > Does the 1931 MP 229 (at the convention) show system wide assignments? Is > this MP 229 available to the masses? > MP229's are pretty quick to scan and post online. If anyone has one to share, contact me offlist and we'll get it onto Keystone Crossings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:27:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Trains mag / Sunnyside Yards From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Picked up a copy of the June issue of Trains magazine, The article on Sunnyside Yards is superb! Anyone who does not subscribe should grab a copy. The article was actually written in 1956, according to an editorial blurb. It was kept in that tense and not updated. The article is full of fascinating facts, statistics, and operating tidbits. A must for any passenger modeler! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:30:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Servicing at Harrisburg From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" (Imagine I'll hear from Dan Cupper on this one...) The Sunnyside Yard article in the June issue of Trains magazine has me thinking. There are many trains passing through Harrisburg that have coaches/diners added removed. There was a small coach yard there. Without the facilities of Sunnyside, how were these cars serviced? What services were performed? Was there some sort of commissary within the station building that stocked the diners? I'm not aware of any outbuildings dedicated to this service. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:37:31 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Try a different switchlisting for your car movement... Rick, Would you please give an example of your switchlist, maybe post a copy on Jerry's Site where we can see it? Thanks, Steve Bartlett RickTipton wrote: ... There is another family of switchlisting called "destination switchlisting". ... Hope I haven't totally confused all of you. I really like destination switchlisting, and hope to write a magazine article describing it in more detail... Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:31:52 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Try a different switchlisting for your car Rick: I would also be interested in seeing a copy of both a local switchlist and a yardmaster's switchlist. Jeff Warner Stephen Bartlett wrote: >Rick, > Would you please give an example of your switchlist, maybe post a copy >on Jerry's Site where we can see it? > >Thanks, > >Steve Bartlett > >RickTipton wrote: > >... >There is another family of switchlisting called "destination >switchlisting". >... >Hope I haven't totally confused all of you. I really like destination >switchlisting, and hope to write a magazine article describing it in >more >detail... > >Rick Tipton > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:41:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01C314E9.D3E15000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure when the bridge was removed. My guess on the routing to the = Elmira branch is only from my knowledge of the track layout and not from = any absolute knowledge. Trains from Enola would proceed past Allen's and over the existing NS = mainline through South Williamsport to the wye at Nesbit where it would = cross the Susquehanna to the north side and then enter Newberry Yard = from the west. The train could proceed thru Newberry Yard and to the = point where the Elmira Branch wyes into the line in Newberry which goes = to Newberry Yard to the west and into Williamsport to the east.=20 Roy Breon=20 Pittsford NY ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Morrow=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Williamsport=20 Can anyone tell me when the bridge that allowed trains to enter = Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? After that time how = and where were trains originating from Enola turned to go up the Elmira = Branch? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01C314E9.D3E15000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure when the bridge was = removed. My guess=20 on the routing to the Elmira branch is only from my knowledge of the = track=20 layout and not from any absolute knowledge.
 
Trains from Enola would proceed past = Allen's and=20 over the existing NS mainline through South Williamsport to the wye=20 at Nesbit where it would cross the Susquehanna to the north side = and then=20 enter Newberry Yard from the west.  The train could proceed thru = Newberry=20 Yard and to the point where the Elmira Branch wyes into the line in = Newberry=20 which goes to Newberry Yard to the west and into Williamsport to the=20 east. 
 
Roy Breon
Pittsford NY
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike=20 Morrow
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 = 7:25=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Williamsport =

Can anyone tell me when the bridge = that allowed=20 trains to enter Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? = After=20 that time how and where were trains originating from Enola = turned to=20 go up the Elmira Branch?
 
Thanks
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS=20 #6703
------=_NextPart_000_0112_01C314E9.D3E15000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:08:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Alco RS horns- --part1_1ea.84bbe00.2beb2411_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I am seriously considering making the jump to Soundtraxx. I am looking at the Alco DSD 150. One with a Leslie S3 and one with a Nathan P3 horn. I model PRR, and these would most likely go into one of the 2 atlas classic RS1's I have. Any thoughts on what horn would be appropriate for a PRR RS1, or for that matter any RS unit since I have an RS3, RS11, and soon to have an RS2. It would just be nice to have a horn that fits a particular engine. Thanks in advance, Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio --part1_1ea.84bbe00.2beb2411_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List,

I am seriously considering making the jump to Soundtraxx.  I am looking= at the Alco DSD 150.  One with a Leslie S3 and one with a Nathan P3 ho= rn.  I model PRR, and these would most likely go into one of the 2 atla= s classic RS1's I have.  Any thoughts on what horn would be appropriate= for a PRR RS1, or for that matter any RS unit since I have an RS3, RS11, an= d soon to have an RS2.

It would just be nice to have a horn that fits a particular engine.

Thanks in advance,
Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
 --part1_1ea.84bbe00.2beb2411_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:12:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs From: "Douglas Nelson" I have a photo of a PBM70 in a short mail/express train under the wires at Elizabeth behind a steam loco. Anyone know what RPO route this might be and why it is pulled by steam rather than electric? Doug Nelson ---------- >From: "Bruce F. Smith" >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] more small RPOs >Date: Wed, May 7, 2003, 1:42 PM > > Hi gang, > > Yesterday, Gary Mittner pointed out that the "mushroom train", MD-59/58 on > the Octararo Branch ran with a PBM70 (that's a combine with baggage and > mail sections!). At Gary's suggestion, I reviewed the Octararo Branch > reprint and I found at least three photos of a PBM70 (two were on the same > day in 1945). > > There is no mention of RPO service in the Octararo Branch reprint, however, > the Keystone a few years back had a detailed report of RPO routes. The > Philadelphia-Perryville RPO ran over the Octararo Branch and rated a 15' > apartment! The route map indicates less than 0.5 cars per day. > > Here is my question - does anyone know when the Philadelphia-Perryville RPO > was suspended? > > The confusing issue is that MD-59/58 seems to have run contemporaneously > with consists of a B60 + PBM70 OR two PB70s. Two PB70s wouldn't have been > used if an RPO was on the scedule! Did the RPO only run on certain days of > the week and the PB70s handle the train on off days or was the PBM70 used > since it was available and the PRO section was closed? > > Believe it or not, a model of the PBM70 was produced in brass, making it a > viable car for the layout (if one can be found). > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:28:41 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Servicing at Harrisburg Greetings to Jerry and the List: Sorry, the only food service mentioned in the 1981 architectural study and historical review of the Harrisburg station, undertaken prior to its $13 million facelift, doesn't help with this question. The original station had a kitchen in the basement that was used to supply the first-floor restaurant, but the study doesn't document the presence of a commissary in the building then or at any other time (not to say it couldn't have occurred, just that this very detailed study doesn't document it). Over time, PRR did acquire multiple buildings between the north side of the station and Market Street (all of which have been razed; it's now the site of the Greyhound/Trailways bus area). One of these structures was the Hoffman House, used by PRR as a crew dormitory. Whether any of these buildings housed support facilities for commissary purposes, I don't know, but their location would certainly lend itself to that use. The coach yard was located a quarter-mile north, eastward across the mainline tracks from Harris Tower, in the vicinity of the State Street Bridge. Immediately south of the station was the Cumberland Valley office and immediately east was the Reading station, so that doesn't leave a lot of choices for a commissary location. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------------- Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > (Imagine I'll hear from Dan Cupper on this one...) > > The Sunnyside Yard article in the June issue of Trains magazine has me > thinking. There are many trains passing through Harrisburg that have > coaches/diners added removed. There was a small coach yard there. > > Without the facilities of Sunnyside, how were these cars serviced? > What services were performed? > > Was there some sort of commissary within the station building that > stocked the diners? I'm not aware of any outbuildings dedicated to > this service. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:26:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport I can't remember where I saw it but I remember 1956 or 57 . I believe the floods from Hurricane Hazel took out the bridge. After the connection at East Allens was gone traffic used the connection at the west end Nisbet across the river to the Williamsport Br. Newberry tower with it's wye would be passed before getting to he station and Walnut St yard. Passenger traffic used the wye to turn after making the Williamsport stop. -------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:44:08 -0700 Subject: [PRR] "The Year of the Consist" Hi Jerry & list members, >At the Altoona convention in 1999, the Cincinnati Modelers Division >brought in several HO scale passenger trains. Next year the convention >will be on their turf. I intend to offer -- for display only -- an >accurate N scale passenger consist. This sounds like a great idea. I have had the thought of modeling a particular consist, altho it is a much more modest one than what you have in mind. Still, if there is sufficient interest, maybe next year could be "The Year of the Consist" in the model room! >Due to the availability of kits -- and current lack of a Budd roof for >some cars -- I have chosen the Juniata, train #72. > >The consist is based directly from the PRR's own "Makeup of Trains: New >York Division" from 1954. > >It will include (8) B60b's (Hell Gate Models), (2) B60b Express Messengers >(Hell Gate Models), (1) BM70k (Hell Gate Models), (2) P70GSR's (East Wind >Manufacturing), (1) 28-1 Parlor, (1) Coffee Shop Tavern, and (1) P70 >Scheme 6. Pretty heavy head end on THAT train! Just curious here, Jerry. What was the power assigned to the train? Maybe that is the easiest part of the whole project, but then again, maybe not! >I am looking for contract/donated help on the following cars... >* 28-1 Parlor >* Coffee Shop Tavern (I don't even know what class it should be) >* P70 Scheme 6 Well, as you already know my time frame of interest, I can't get excited about the Tavern car or the Scheme cars. BUT... The 28-1 parlor is something I could get pretty excited about! In general there were large numbers of 28-1 parlors on PRR daytime trains, and in particular, the NY Division daytime trains carried a lot of these on Clockers and on NY-Washington trains. So I definitely need a significant number of parlor cars for my trains. Trouble is, so far all N-scale manufacturers have entirely ignored parlor cars - AFAIK there are none available in N scale in ANY medium - plastic, brass, or resin. >While I won't be counting rivets, I want the models to appear accurate, >perhaps with minimal interiors. This would be the goal I would aim for as well w/ respect to the 28-1 parlor cars. >Any experienced heavyweight modelers out there want to get involved? It sounds like you and I should have a further conversation off-line on this topic. >11 months and counting... Eleven months, eh? That should be enuf time to turn out a plausible 28-1 anyway, seeing how the project would be starting from scratch! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:44:08 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Thanks everyone for the leads and input Hi, Thanks everyone for the leads and input on the Florida trains. - Claus > Hi, > > Pennsy hosted a significant number of foreign-road Florida > trains, especially on the Washington-NYC portion of the railroad > from roads like FEC, SAL, ACL and RF&P. > > I'm basically pretty ignorant when it comes to these trains, and > I'm eager to learn a little more about them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:48:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs In a message dated 5/7/03 3:51:23 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Believe it or not, a model of the PBM70 was produced in brass, making it a viable car for the layout (if one can be found). >> A similar car was produced as a Walthers stamped metal side kit, but though it resembled and was billed sometimes as a PBM70 there were minor differences. I think, but can't be sure, that it may have been closer to a Soo car. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:57:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroad Track Speeds In a message dated 5/7/03 4:54:28 PM Central Daylight Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes: << Since we were on the topic of operating, does anyone enforce track speed for a certain section of thier layout during a session? >> Yes, a complete table of speed limits by train type is to be included in our employee timetable, a draft of which is posted on the fascia over the layout room. One we modified from Pennsy-Conrail. Mineral trains are allowed to go 10 mph downgrade, higher than the prototype 8 mph, at least in certain eras:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondola handout From: Jerry Britton On 5/8/03 7:58 AM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > > The fact that you downloaded the file and were able to open it proves > the issue is not at my end (server based). It is possible there is a > Reader bug with regard to autolaunch when a browser hands off a file. I > can't respond to that. > > Bill V. writes: > > I too had difficulty downloading the file. It kept giving me an error > message. My computer guru at work tells me that I must first copy the > file to my hard drive to open it, which it did. > > His opinion is that your server is not properly linked and cannot open > the file over the internet. Any comments? > YES, I have a comment. Someone took my advice and reinstalled Acrobat and it worked fine. I suppose that was a problem at my end? If something wasn't properly linked at my end you would get a "404" error. My server is sending the file down just fine. Reports indicate it will auto-open if Acrobat is already running. For some people using WinBlows it will not auto-launch Acrobat if it is not already running. The reinstall of Acrobat fixes this. This tells me it is a handoff problem among the o/s, Acrobat, and the browser. Most likely an Acrobat problem since there were known bugs in Acrobat and the reinstall fixes it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Gondola handout Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:58:16 -0400 Jerry wrote: The fact that you downloaded the file and were able to open it proves the issue is not at my end (server based). It is possible there is a Reader bug with regard to autolaunch when a browser hands off a file. I can't respond to that. Bill V. writes: I too had difficulty downloading the file. It kept giving me an error message. My computer guru at work tells me that I must first copy the file to my hard drive to open it, which it did. His opinion is that your server is not properly linked and cannot open the file over the internet. Any comments? WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:56 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST; Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondola handout On 5/5/03 3:45 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > First I downloaded reader 5.1 still didn't open. Then I opened > Acrobat Reader 5.1 first and then downloaded and it worked fine. It > is a two page summary. While I can't be 100% certain, that sounds like your operating system is not properly handing off .PDF files to Acrobat Reader. More to the point, it seems the o/s is not launching Reader if it is not already open, but perhaps Reader is reacting fine to the .PDF suffix. The fact that you downloaded the file and were able to open it proves the issue is not at my end (server based). It is possible there is a Reader bug with regard to autolaunch when a browser hands off a file. I can't respond to that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 08:28:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Computer Support From: Listmaster On 5/8/03 8:40 AM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > My appologies. After we downloaded Acrobat 5.0 we failed to reboot the > computer. It now opens fine. Sorry. > This is NOT intended to be a slam at Bill. And I apologize for getting a bit hot under the collar with regard to computer support issues. When software installs tell you to reboot, do it! Anytime your computer misbehaves, reboot it! Better yet, shut it off for about 10 seconds and then power back up. This is particularly an issue for Windoze systems. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Gondola handout Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:40:10 -0400 My appologies. After we downloaded Acrobat 5.0 we failed to reboot the computer. It now opens fine. Sorry. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:49 AM To: Bill Volkmer; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST; 'Ronald Di Orio' Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondola handout On 5/8/03 7:58 AM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > > The fact that you downloaded the file and were able to open it proves > the issue is not at my end (server based). It is possible there is a > Reader bug with regard to autolaunch when a browser hands off a file. > I can't respond to that. > > Bill V. writes: > > I too had difficulty downloading the file. It kept giving me an error > message. My computer guru at work tells me that I must first copy the > file to my hard drive to open it, which it did. > > His opinion is that your server is not properly linked and cannot open > the file over the internet. Any comments? > YES, I have a comment. Someone took my advice and reinstalled Acrobat and it worked fine. I suppose that was a problem at my end? If something wasn't properly linked at my end you would get a "404" error. My server is sending the file down just fine. Reports indicate it will auto-open if Acrobat is already running. For some people using WinBlows it will not auto-launch Acrobat if it is not already running. The reinstall of Acrobat fixes this. This tells me it is a handoff problem among the o/s, Acrobat, and the browser. Most likely an Acrobat problem since there were known bugs in Acrobat and the reinstall fixes it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Williamsport Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:54:32 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C3153F.71B86A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The bridge was long gone when I first came on the scene in 1964. Don;t know just when it was removed. There were no trains originating in Enola that went through to Elmira. All "through" trains were coal trains from Renovo/Clearfield which was a joint operation with the NYC furnishing the power six months of the year. Freight from Enola and points east/south was dropped off at Newberry for the Elmira local which originated at Williamsport. The freight for Canandegua, and Sodus etc. (i.e. points north of Elmira) was originated at Elmira, some of it off the Erie RR, DL&W etc Only the passenger trains would have used the south bridge and they backed into town from Nesbit. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Roy Breon Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 10:42 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport I'm not sure when the bridge was removed. My guess on the routing to the Elmira branch is only from my knowledge of the track layout and not from any absolute knowledge. Trains from Enola would proceed past Allen's and over the existing NS mainline through South Williamsport to the wye at Nesbit where it would cross the Susquehanna to the north side and then enter Newberry Yard from the west. The train could proceed thru Newberry Yard and to the point where the Elmira Branch wyes into the line in Newberry which goes to Newberry Yard to the west and into Williamsport to the east. Roy Breon Pittsford NY ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Morrow To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Williamsport Can anyone tell me when the bridge that allowed trains to enter Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? After that time how and where were trains originating from Enola turned to go up the Elmira Branch? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C3153F.71B86A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The=20 bridge was long gone when I first came on the scene in 1964.  Don;t = know just when it was removed.  There were no trains = originating in=20 Enola that went through to Elmira.  All "through" trains were = coal=20 trains from Renovo/Clearfield which was a joint operation with the NYC=20 furnishing the power six months of the year.  Freight from Enola = and points=20 east/south was dropped off at Newberry for the Elmira local which = originated at=20 Williamsport.  The freight for Canandegua, and Sodus etc. (i.e. = points=20 north of Elmira)  was originated at Elmira, some of it off the Erie = RR,=20 DL&W etc
 
Only=20 the passenger trains would have used the south bridge and they backed = into town=20 from Nesbit.

WDV
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Roy=20 Breon
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 10:42 PM
To:=20 PRR-Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport =

I'm not sure when the bridge was = removed. My=20 guess on the routing to the Elmira branch is only from my knowledge of = the=20 track layout and not from any absolute knowledge.
 
Trains from Enola would proceed past = Allen's and=20 over the existing NS mainline through South Williamsport to the wye=20 at Nesbit where it would cross the Susquehanna to the north side = and then=20 enter Newberry Yard from the west.  The train could proceed thru = Newberry=20 Yard and to the point where the Elmira Branch wyes into the line in = Newberry=20 which goes to Newberry Yard to the west and into Williamsport to the=20 east. 
 
Roy Breon
Pittsford NY
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike Morrow
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 = 7:25=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Williamsport =

Can anyone tell me when the bridge = that allowed=20 trains to enter Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? = After=20 that time how and where were trains originating from Enola=20 turned to go up the Elmira Branch?
 
Thanks
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS=20 #6703
------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C3153F.71B86A20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Year of the Consist" Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:04:58 +0000 Would it be possible to "cobble" together specific trains by combining equipment for the convention? Perhaps a list of what is needed could be posted and people could respond to the needs. Who knows what lies out there in various peoples hands? > Hi Jerry & list members, > > >At the Altoona convention in 1999, the Cincinnati Modelers Division > >brought in several HO scale passenger trains. Next year the convention > >will be on their turf. I intend to offer -- for display only -- an > >accurate N scale passenger consist. > > This sounds like a great idea. I have had the thought of modeling > a particular consist, altho it is a much more > modest one than what you have in mind. > > Still, if there is sufficient interest, > maybe next year could be "The Year of the Consist" > in the model room! > > >Due to the availability of kits -- and current lack of a Budd roof for > >some cars -- I have chosen the Juniata, train #72. > > > >The consist is based directly from the PRR's own "Makeup of Trains: New > >York Division" from 1954. > > > >It will include (8) B60b's (Hell Gate Models), (2) B60b Express Messengers > >(Hell Gate Models), (1) BM70k (Hell Gate Models), (2) P70GSR's (East Wind > >Manufacturing), (1) 28-1 Parlor, (1) Coffee Shop Tavern, and (1) P70 > >Scheme 6. > > Pretty heavy head end on THAT train! > > Just curious here, Jerry. What was the power assigned to the train? Maybe > that is the easiest part of the whole project, but then again, > maybe not! > > >I am looking for contract/donated help on the following cars... > >* 28-1 Parlor > >* Coffee Shop Tavern (I don't even know what class it should be) > >* P70 Scheme 6 > > Well, as you already know my time frame of interest, I can't > get excited about the Tavern car or the Scheme cars. > > BUT... > > The 28-1 parlor is something I could get pretty excited about! > > In general there were large numbers of 28-1 parlors on PRR > daytime trains, and in particular, the NY Division daytime trains > carried a lot of these on Clockers and on NY-Washington trains. > So I definitely need a significant number of parlor cars for my trains. > > Trouble is, so far all N-scale manufacturers have entirely ignored > parlor cars - AFAIK there are none available in N scale in > ANY medium - plastic, brass, or resin. > > >While I won't be counting rivets, I want the models to appear accurate, > >perhaps with minimal interiors. > > This would be the goal I would aim for as well > w/ respect to the 28-1 parlor cars. > > >Any experienced heavyweight modelers out there want to get involved? > > It sounds like you and I should have a further > conversation off-line on this topic. > > >11 months and counting... > > Eleven months, eh? That should be enuf time to turn out a > plausible 28-1 anyway, seeing how the project would be > starting from scratch! > > - Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:29:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Gary, > Here is a pic of my Cstom Brass PBM70. Sorry for the glare. No Sun >today, so the flash was used.....Gary > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000932.jpg As always, very nice! BTW, I came to the conclusion last night, after finishing the RPO issue of the Keystone, that the PBM70/PBM70a is a doable bash from the Bachman PB70...The Bachman car would need one pair of windows removed, and then a section added to the baggage end for the RPO...I didn't look closely, but I wonder if this could be "salvaged" from a BCW M70B? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:23:58 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Acrobat Jerry and Bill: Acrobat reader is a memory hog. Frequently, if you are running Windows 2000 or Windows XP and you e-mail especially Outlook with the latest service pack upgrade, there is not sufficient memory to open the pdf file. There is a problem with Outlook created by the lates service pack which causes it to retain memory space even when closed. If you open and close your e-mail program throughout the day, you will run out of memmory. This assume you have a machine with 256K or less RAM. If you go to 512 or 1048 or more the problem is less apparent. Ths simple solution is to reboot before using the auto feature of acrobat. This will clear the memory. Until I had my machine at work upgrade to 512 RAM, I frequently experienced this problem. The machine is a Windows 2000 on a Windows 2000 network. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:26:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Hi Bruce & list members, Bruce wrote: > Believe it or not, a model of the PBM70 was produced in brass, making it a > viable car for the layout (if one can be found). Believe it or not, a model of the PBM70 was produced in PLASTIC! You just have to be modeling in the right scale! - Claus (modeling in N scale) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Display trains for National convention Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:30:51 +0000 If a list of cars from various trains could be made perhaps teamwork between the readers of PRR-talk could generate more than one display train at the convention by combining the elements from various sources. Who knows what pieces any of us has stashed away? In HO I have several G's that are repainted to different numbers than are available commercially including a couple with retrofitted pilots to the early version. A sign up list could produce some interesting knowledge at the least. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Back Up From: Listmaster After another ISP/routing issue, we're back on the air. This one resolved itself (fortunately) before we had totally traced the problem. Likely just a routing problem. Were "off air" from 9 a.m. until about 11:45. Unfortunately, our ISP is the only DSL game in town. Others are reportedly coming our way over the next year, plus cable. Cable has its own issues, but they seem to be resolving many. Full T1 (leased line) is cost prohibitive. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:25:44 -0400 Jerry Britton: I've gone back to Keystone Crossings to look at your ambitious model railroad plan. My question is: "Where the heck are you going to put all the operators required to run this beast?" Have you gone through your 1954 scenario and 'spotted' the people required to implement it, on your plan -- who needs to be where, or to move from here to there, in order to make it all happen? I think you're going to have some real problems with operator congestion in the aisles. Given the amount of trackage and trains requiring support, it seems Harrisburg station alone will require at least two operators, one at either end, plus the freight house man, plus engineers running through trains in and out, and terminating locals. Unless they are not going to be following their trains -- converse to your 'givens and druthers' -- it seems the road guys will have to be constantly squeezing by the Harrisburg switcher/tower operators. Is one of the switcher engineers/towermen supposed to be in a pop-up 'gopher hole' where the Harrisburg gasworks is, on your trackage map? If so, how much headroom will he or she have, with MG tower directly overhead? Will this person also be expected to be the MG operator? I'm also wondering about sight lines from the aisle for some of the complex trackage on the main line to the east of the gasworks area, and for Pittsburgh division men trying to ascertain routings through the MG plant. While your aisle width is 4 feet at some points, where the "action is" around the Harrisburg station area it appears to pinch down to about 2 feet, if your diagram is accurate. I can tell you from experience, that ain't nowhere NEAR enough aisle space for operators to handle the number of train movements I think you envision. I've operated on single-level layouts where there was trackage on both sides of the aisle, and *three-foot wide* aisles weren't wide enough -- and this was on a single track with passing siding type of operation. This problem will be particularly pronounced if you're planning on using card cards as part of your operating scheme -- unless you have lighted under-table shelving dedicated to card card sorting and the like (I've found 'pockets' on the side of the layout are not efficient for card sorting, just storage) then someone is always standing in the aisle working the trackage on the opposite side of where your train is, holding and sorting their cards like Amarillo Slim, blocking the aisle while you're trying to follow your own train. The amount of train traffic on your PRR layout will just exacerbate that problem. Americans generally are getting fatter, too. Unless all your operators are bean-poles, squeezing-by one another time after time in a two-foot aisle during an ops session will bring new meaning to the term "close friends". Plus, not only are you modeling one of the busiest passenger train junction points in the country, you've then superimposed The World's Busiest Mountain Railroad directly above it. That's a lot of traffic. Are the Pittsburgh division train engineers also expected to follow their trains along, and if so, won't they be constantly bumping into their Philadelphia division cohorts trying to operate THEIR trains on the lower level? Plus, is each westbound train going to have a hauler AND a helper engineer? That doubles the engineer traffic, for any given train. If not, how are the helpers supposed to get back downhill? The Rockville bridge is located almost directly underneath the Cresson engine terminal. It seems this too will cause access problems for Pittsburgh division men following their trains west from AR, or if anything happens on the east end of the Cresson yard trackage. Rockville bridge as on your track plan forms a "dam" across the aisle that the Pittsburgh guys would have to use to reach MO tower. Having to duck under benchwork constantly to follow one's train or do switching is also a major pain in the butt -- or back. Not ducking under means they have to sight switch settings from over 5 feet away. I don't know how far you've gotten on this layout, but it seems that you will need some automation for at least part of it -- the line-haul trains that emerge from Enola and move through Harrisburg without switching, for instance -- if you are set on having two of America's busiest railroad operations modelled layered one above the other. Otherwise, I think your lower-level Harrisburg layout alone would keep as many operators happy as could be fit into your aisle space, as it appears in your plan. It would be good if you could post a more-detailed version of your plan if you have it, what's now on your site is kind of crude. You may have already sorted all the above issues out, but your posted plan doesn't reflect it. I'm no operating or layout design expert, by any means, but I have operated on layouts bigger than what you have planned, in physical size if not the amount of train traffic you propose. I don't mean to belittle your plan, I'm just calling it the way I see it, looking at printouts of your plans one atop the other. Looking forward to your thoughts, here. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:59:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long) From: Jerry Britton Wow! Long post! On 5/8/03 1:25 PM, Doug Drew (DDrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > My question is: "Where the heck are you going to put all the operators > required to run this beast?" > > Have you gone through your 1954 scenario and 'spotted' the people required > to implement it, on your plan -- who needs to be where, or to move from here > to there, in order to make it all happen? > > I think you're going to have some real problems with operator congestion in > the aisles. The drawings online are not all up-to-date. New drawings show representative "people". The drawings are so complex (Adobe Illustrator w/scans) that I am having difficulty getting them exported for the web. The layout will have a little bit for everyone: tower operations, through trains, and switching. There are two holes that I haven't yet determined how I am going to use them. One is in front of Marysville and the other is inside the Horseshoe Curve. These holes align through all levels. The online plan shows the Harrisburg Gas Company between the main line and the REA area. This will only be there for open houses. Otherwise its a 2' by 5' hole. The aisles have only one tight spot, 2' wide near the Rockville Bridge. Otherwise they are 3-5' wide. I developed the plan to operate coal drags on two loops on the upper level, utilizing the Cresson Seconday, Irvona Branch, and New Portage Secondary, along with hidden staging. I am now considering modeling the Cresson Yard and placing that operator inside the helix (which is plenty large enough). >From there they can see 3/4 of the layout and could perform switching at local areas. > > Given the amount of trackage and trains requiring support, it seems > Harrisburg station alone will require at least two operators, one at either > end, plus the freight house man, plus engineers running through trains in > and out, and terminating locals. Unless they are not going to be following > their trains -- converse to your 'givens and druthers' -- it seems the road > guys will have to be constantly squeezing by the Harrisburg switcher/tower > operators. The passenger trains will have minimal switching and are really spaced apart. In order to maintain interest in running them, the current plan is to have them use a local throttle to switch their own cars (when applicable) and change motive power, rather than have east and west end yard switcher jobs. This eliminates the need for two dedicated operators. The Harrisburg REA/freight job will be one dedicated person, sitting in the Harrisburg Gas Company hole. This will be a real challenging job for someone who enjoys switching...practically a yard master job! > > Is one of the switcher engineers/towermen supposed to be in a pop-up 'gopher > hole' where the Harrisburg gasworks is, on your trackage map? If so, how > much headroom will he or she have, with MG tower directly overhead? Will > this person also be expected to be the MG operator? I'm also wondering about > sight lines from the aisle for some of the complex trackage on the main line > to the east of the gasworks area, and for Pittsburgh division men trying to > ascertain routings through the MG plant. I'm 6'3". When seated, as the Hbg operator will be, the benchwork above is a good 2" above me. Operator will have a roller chair for comfort. This operator will need to crawl under to get to their op spot, but the clearance is about 37". Not bad at all. > > While your aisle width is 4 feet at some points, where the "action is" > around the Harrisburg station area it appears to pinch down to about 2 feet, > if your diagram is accurate. I can tell you from experience, that ain't > nowhere NEAR enough aisle space for operators to handle the number of train > movements I think you envision. Directly in front of the station it is 3', with no trackage directly behind the operators. > > I've operated on single-level layouts where there was trackage on both sides > of the aisle, and *three-foot wide* aisles weren't wide enough -- and this > was on a single track with passing siding type of operation. This problem > will be particularly pronounced if you're planning on using card cards as > part of your operating scheme -- unless you have lighted under-table > shelving dedicated to card card sorting and the like (I've found 'pockets' > on the side of the layout are not efficient for card sorting, just storage) > then someone is always standing in the aisle working the trackage on the > opposite side of where your train is, holding and sorting their cards like > Amarillo Slim, blocking the aisle while you're trying to follow your own > train. The amount of train traffic on your PRR layout will just exacerbate > that problem. The layout is mostly through trains, with helpers. Won't be much car carding in the aisles. > > Americans generally are getting fatter, too. Unless all your operators are > bean-poles, squeezing-by one another time after time in a two-foot aisle > during an ops session will bring new meaning to the term "close friends". The only 2' wide section is only about 2' long. Should be easy to negotiate "meets". > > Plus, not only are you modeling one of the busiest passenger train junction > points in the country, you've then superimposed The World's Busiest Mountain > Railroad directly above it. That's a lot of traffic. Are the Pittsburgh > division train engineers also expected to follow their trains along, and if > so, won't they be constantly bumping into their Philadelphia division > cohorts trying to operate THEIR trains on the lower level? Plus, is each > westbound train going to have a hauler AND a helper engineer? That doubles > the engineer traffic, for any given train. If not, how are the helpers > supposed to get back downhill? This is N scale! The entire run of the room is 24'. You can stand in the middle and comfortably enjoy watching your train. It will have dramatic scenery and the distant vantage point will actually be better. I plan to use helpers, but we'll need to see how operations pan out. As for getting helpers back downhill, we'll do it the same way the Pennsy did it! > > The Rockville bridge is located almost directly underneath the Cresson > engine terminal. It seems this too will cause access problems for Pittsburgh > division men following their trains west from AR, or if anything happens on > the east end of the Cresson yard trackage. Rockville bridge as on your track > plan forms a "dam" across the aisle that the Pittsburgh guys would have to > use to reach MO tower. Having to duck under benchwork constantly to follow > one's train or do switching is also a major pain in the butt -- or back. Not > ducking under means they have to sight switch settings from over 5 feet > away. There will be no need for the operator to get that close. The dispatcher/tower operator aligns the routes, not the engineer, per the prototype. There's no local switching, so all you have to do is "watch" your train. The Cresson terminal, as of 1954, was still serving the branch lines' coal hauling locos...not servicing helpers. So there won't be much interaction with the main line. In fact, any moves could be made from the opposite side of the terminal, by the doorway. The Cresson terminal, other than receiving supplies, will be largely display. > > I don't know how far you've gotten on this layout, but it seems that you > will need some automation for at least part of it -- the line-haul trains > that emerge from Enola and move through Harrisburg without switching, for > instance -- if you are set on having two of America's busiest railroad > operations modelled layered one above the other. Otherwise, I think your > lower-level Harrisburg layout alone would keep as many operators happy as > could be fit into your aisle space, as it appears in your plan. The layout is DCC. I will have computerized Dispatching. The system I am going with is multi-user. The main Dispatcher can delegate sub-sections of the layouts to other tower operators. They will be in the next room. In addition to aligning routes, it is possible and very likely that some of the through trains will be run totally via computers. The entire layout has detection, so other than a learning curve, this should be a reasonable expectation. I'm a computer geek, so I am willing to work at it to get it right. I'm not promoting it as "plug and play". > > It would be good if you could post a more-detailed version of your plan if > you have it, what's now on your site is kind of crude. You may have already > sorted all the above issues out, but your posted plan doesn't reflect it. Previously addressed. JPEG and GIF files don't like multi-layer Illustrator files. > > I'm no operating or layout design expert, by any means, but I have operated > on layouts bigger than what you have planned, in physical size if not the > amount of train traffic you propose. I don't mean to belittle your plan, I'm > just calling it the way I see it, looking at printouts of your plans one > atop the other. > Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I respect yours. I'm a railfan. 90% of the time I will be the only one around. The layout is long enough, and three tracks wide throughout (VIEW narrows to three tracks), so I could easily run six trains unattended while I do some switching myself. Anyone else have a switching layout like that? ;-) I don't profess it to be perfect, ideal, etc. But those who are working on it continue to be excited about it even as the multiple levels are coming together. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:27:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long) From: Jerry Britton On 5/8/03 1:59 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > The drawings online are not all up-to-date. New drawings show representative > "people". The drawings are so complex (Adobe Illustrator w/scans) that I am > having difficulty getting them exported for the web. > Guess I was "inspired"...I suddenly figured how to get the files to the web. I've uploaded new versions and added a composite view which shows all layers. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Gary Nice model. What did you use for window shades? Ron Di Orio --- Gary Mittner wrote: > Bruce, > > Here is a pic of my Cstom Brass PBM70. Sorry for > the glare. No Sun > today, so the flash was used.....Gary > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000932.jpg > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical > Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB > PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: [PRR] Possible PRR in MSTS 2.0 Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:35:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C3156F.1D32AF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A possible note of interest for all: The following annoucment was all over the www.trainsim.com forums today: Microsoft Game Studios today announced that Microsoft Train Simulator 2 = will be shown for the first time at E3, the annual video game convention = in Los Angeles, May 14-16. Microsoft Train Simulator 2, the follow-up to = the number one best-selling train simulation PC game, * will be = available in stores this fall. With five new, highly detailed routes, Microsoft Train Simulator 2 = provides the opportunity to command a 200-ton modern diesel locomotive = or operate a steam-breathing behemoth from the past. Virtual engineers = will be able to take trains around the historic Horseshoe Curve on the = Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1946, or on a high-speed romp through = Germany on the world-famous Deutsche Bahn AG. Taking cues from the = exacting standards of quality and realism associated with the Microsoft = Flight Simulator product family, this latest edition of the Microsoft = Train Simulator series charges full steam ahead from where its = predecessor left off. Microsoft Train Simulator 2 also adds dynamic = weather in a living-breathing world complete with people, vehicles and = animals roaming the countryside.=20 There is not much other confirmation yet of this annoucment, but if it's = true I'll be dreaming of J1's, M1's and T1's till the day I get my = grubby little hands on a copy!!!! Tom von Trott ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C3156F.1D32AF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A possible note of interest for = all:
 
The following annoucment was all over = the www.trainsim.com forums = today:
 

Microsoft Game Studios today announced that Microsoft Train Simulator = 2 will=20 be shown for the first time at E3, the annual video game convention in = Los=20 Angeles, May 14-16. Microsoft Train Simulator 2, the follow-up to the = number one=20 best-selling train simulation PC game, * will be available in stores = this=20 fall.
With five new, highly detailed routes, Microsoft Train = Simulator 2=20 provides the opportunity to command a 200-ton modern diesel locomotive = or=20 operate a steam-breathing behemoth from the past. Virtual engineers will = be able=20 to take trains around the historic Horseshoe Curve on the Pennsylvania = Railroad=20 circa 1946, or on a high-speed romp through Germany on the world-famous = Deutsche=20 Bahn AG. Taking cues from the exacting standards of quality and realism=20 associated with the Microsoft Flight Simulator product family, this = latest=20 edition of the Microsoft Train Simulator series charges full steam ahead = from=20 where its predecessor left off. Microsoft Train Simulator 2 also adds = dynamic=20 weather in a living-breathing world complete with people, vehicles and = animals=20 roaming the countryside.=20

 

There is not much other confirmation yet of this annoucment, but if = it's true=20 I'll be dreaming of J1's, M1's and T1's till the day I get my grubby = little=20 hands on a copy!!!!

 

Tom von Trott

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C3156F.1D32AF80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:37:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C3156F.6509CC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I'm not sure of all the details, I believe the bridge on the east = end was there through the end of steam and was taken out of service = sometime in the '60's. It was washed out during a flood resulting from = a hurricane, but I believe before Hurricane Agnes in 1972. There was = (and still is) a wye at Nisbit across from the west end of Newberry Yard = where trains from either direction could be turned or could just run = frontwards into Williamsport and up the Elmira branch. That branch from = the wye into Newberry and through the Williamsport Industrial District = (or what's left of it) is now operated by the Lycoming Valley Railroad, = part of the North Shore System. See = http://www.nshr.com/html/System_Dir.htm for information on the Lycoming Valley and other railroads in that = system. During the last days of PC passenger "service" into = Williamsport after the east end bridge was gone, trains backed from the = wye at Nisbit to the station downtown. There was a locomotive servicing facility at Nisbit during the steam = days with two coal docks, water towers feeding standpipes, and sand = storage and drying facility. One coal dock and standpipe was on the = bypass mainline, the other was on the west leg of the wye. That way = through freights which bypassed Williamsport by staying on the south = side of the river and trains crossing over through town and going and = coming to/from the Elmira Branch could be serviced. You can still see = the footers from the water tanks and coal docks along the wye and in the = weeds. Do keep a lookout for serpents, however. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Morrow=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Williamsport Can anyone tell me when the bridge that allowed trains to enter = Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? After that time how = and where were trains originating from Enola turned to go up the Elmira = Branch? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C3156F.6509CC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I'm not sure of all the details, I believe = the=20 bridge on the east end was there through the end of steam and was taken = out of=20 service sometime in the '60's.  It was washed out during a flood = resulting=20 from a hurricane, but I believe before Hurricane Agnes in 1972.  = There was=20 (and still is) a wye at Nisbit across from the west end of Newberry Yard = where=20 trains from either direction could be turned or could just run = frontwards into=20 Williamsport and up the Elmira branch.  That branch from the wye = into=20 Newberry and through the Williamsport Industrial District (or what's = left of it)=20 is now operated by the Lycoming Valley Railroad, part of the North Shore = System.  See  http://www.nshr.com/html= /System_Dir.htm
 for information on the Lycoming Valley and = other=20 railroads in that system.  During the last days of PC passenger = "service"=20 into Williamsport after the east end bridge was gone, trains backed from = the wye=20 at Nisbit to the station downtown.
 
There was a locomotive servicing facility at = Nisbit during=20 the steam days with two coal docks, water towers feeding standpipes, and = sand=20 storage and drying facility.  One coal dock and standpipe was on = the bypass=20 mainline, the other was on the west leg of the wye.  That way = through=20 freights which bypassed Williamsport by staying on the south side of the = river=20 and trains crossing over through town and going and coming to/from the = Elmira=20 Branch could be serviced.  You can still see the footers from the = water=20 tanks and coal docks along the wye and in the weeds.  Do keep a = lookout for=20 serpents, however.
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike=20 Morrow
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 = 7:25=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] = Williamsport

Can anyone tell me when the bridge = that allowed=20 trains to enter Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? = After=20 that time how and where were trains originating from Enola = turned to=20 go up the Elmira Branch?
 
Thanks
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS=20 #6703
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C3156F.6509CC80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Ron, I Knew someone would mention those Shades! Not for what they were made of however, but for the color. I picked this car up, unpainted about 20 years ago. Once it was painted and lettered it, I installed glazing. Once that was done, you could see too much of the undetailed interior. So I decided on Shades to help hide the lack of interior. All I used was old tablet paper. Now, for the color. I am pretty sure cream/tan is not the correct color. But, I could be wrong. What is PRR practice when it comes to shades? I may change them to a better color if I learn more here....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:47:44 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs >Ron, > > I Knew someone would mention those Shades! Not for what they were >made of however, but for the color. I picked this car up, unpainted >about 20 years ago. Once it was painted and lettered it, I installed >glazing. Once that was done, you could see too much of the undetailed >interior. So I decided on Shades to help hide the lack of interior. All >I used was old tablet paper. Now, for the color. I am pretty sure >cream/tan is not the correct color. But, I could be wrong. What is PRR >practice when it comes to shades? I may change them to a better color >if I learn more here....Thanks, Gary At one point I think I found an indication that it was an olive green, however, it varied... Someone indicated to me at the PRRT&HS meeting that the venetian blinds on one of the new Southwind cars was the wrong color ...think I'll focus on freight cars! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Bruce, Is that what they were, Venetian? I assumed it was a solid canvas type blind. I also heard of a green color but there are about 3 million shades of Green and about 12 shades of Olive Which ever shade I choose, it will be wrong, Guaranteed!!!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Re: TANGENT - Computer Support Sorry, guys, but I still can't open that gondola handout. I'm running Windows 2000 Pro, Acrobat 5.0, and tried the rebooting, shutting down, etc., still doesn't work. I get a message saying "AcroRd232exe has generated errors and will be closed by Windows. You need to restart the program." Must just be some kind of weird glitch, as I seem to be able to open the other PDF files on the site with Acrobat. Don't mean to bother anybody with what evidently is only my computer problem, but thought I would give you an update. Thanks for all the efforts. Ron Di Orio --- Listmaster wrote: > On 5/8/03 8:40 AM, Bill Volkmer > (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > > > My appologies. After we downloaded Acrobat 5.0 we > failed to reboot the > > computer. It now opens fine. Sorry. > > > This is NOT intended to be a slam at Bill. And I > apologize for getting a bit > hot under the collar with regard to computer support > issues. > > When software installs tell you to reboot, do it! > > Anytime your computer misbehaves, reboot it! Better > yet, shut it off for > about 10 seconds and then power back up. This is > particularly an issue for > Windoze systems. > ---------------------------------------- > Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com > Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Gary Did not mention the shades in order to nitpick as I myself don't know what color they are supposed to be. Actually, I thought they looked kind of neat and suspected they were made out of some type of off the shelf paper. In fact, I was hoping the color was correct as I was considering adding some myself to one of my cars. Oh well.... Ron --- Gary Mittner wrote: > Bruce, > > Is that what they were, Venetian? I assumed it > was a solid canvas > type blind. I also heard of a green color but there > are about 3 million > shades of Green and about 12 shades of Olive > Which ever shade I > choose, it will be wrong, Guaranteed!!!....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical > Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB > PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:46:32 -0400 Friends: Many years ago I was given a quantity of used window shades from several different PRR cars that were upgraded and refurbished. Not only was the shade's interior color several distinctly different shades of buffs, greens and grays, but the outside, or the side exposed to the sun was various shades of gray, tan, buff, white/gray and even one pink/brown one (that was a darkish gray/green on the inside). The bottom edge of the shade was notoriously color changed and as you went up the shade, it more closely resembled the interior color, but never completely. I make my shades from bond paper colored with watered down* cool or warm gray professional illustrator markers and purposely use subtly close, but different, shades on the same car. *When a marker dries up, refill the marker with water. The diluted color or gray gives you one more marker color to work with. I put a white label with a "2", "3" or "4" on the tube of the marker to designate how watered down the color is, based on the number of refills. These are also useful to color cut stone and rock made from plaster carvings and create shadows on backdrops for forced perspective. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Bruce F. Smith" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs > Bruce, > > Is that what they were, Venetian? I assumed it was a solid canvas > type blind. I also heard of a green color but there are about 3 million > shades of Green and about 12 shades of Olive Which ever shade I > choose, it will be wrong, Guaranteed!!!....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:46:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs As an aside, my ex-wife once pointed out to me that I had some serious problems when I was agonizing over what color and style of toilet paper the PRR used in its passenger car bathrooms. That was in pre-computer and list days. I'm sure now someone can provide that answer right away. Ron --- Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Gary > > Did not mention the shades in order to nitpick as I > myself don't know what color they are supposed to > be. > Actually, I thought they looked kind of neat and > suspected they were made out of some type of off the > shelf paper. In fact, I was hoping the color was > correct as I was considering adding some myself to > one > of my cars. Oh well.... > > Ron > > --- Gary Mittner wrote: > > Bruce, > > > > Is that what they were, Venetian? I assumed it > > was a solid canvas > > type blind. I also heard of a green color but > there > > are about 3 million > > shades of Green and about 12 shades of Olive > > Which ever shade I > > choose, it will be wrong, Guaranteed!!!....Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, > Historical > > Items and Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB > > PAGES>>> > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > & > > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:50:42 -0400 Doug: It's a blessing and a curse to be the youngest and smallest on Jerry's crew. When Jerry had his plan at convention we were saying that i have a higher probablitity besides Jerry to be the Cresson Yard master, because i can get on my knees and crawl under. Building benchwork alos gives me the priviledge of getting to contort in ways i didn't know i could do previously. Jerry has a great trackplan and unfortunately it's a pity that you can't see it in person. Jerry is one of those people that you can ask them something about thier layout in progress and they can paint a picture for you describing what will go where and how things will operate. If are a member of the PRRT&HS Jerry is pushing to get all benchwork done and two tracks in service by the 2005 or 2006 convention. 'm offering my thoughts like always. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:52:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long) From: Jerry Britton On 5/8/03 3:50 PM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > If are a member of the PRRT&HS > Jerry is pushing to get all benchwork done and two tracks > in service by the 2005 or 2006 convention. Actually hoping to have the entire 3- 4- track main line in by the 2005 convention. All the yard tracks can be filled in anytime afterwards. The freight/rea area at Harrisburg will be done sometime after that. This is a large layout (for N scale). It will take a few years to build...and a few more to scenic...then maybe we can knock down the walls and expand! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:53:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long) From: Jerry Britton On 5/8/03 3:50 PM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > When Jerry had his plan at > convention we were saying that i have a higher > probablitity besides Jerry to be the Cresson Yard master, > because i can get on my knees and crawl under. If you are the "mole" working the Cresson yard, it will be a crawl in situation. Clearance is only about 24" or so, but the hole is 40" across once you are in. I wanted to point this clearance out, as you can see it in the photos. The other "mole holes" will have much higher clearances. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:21:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Gary asked: > Is that what they were, Venetian? I assumed it was a solid canvas >type blind. I also heard of a green color but there are about 3 million >shades of Green and about 12 shades of Olive Which ever shade I >choose, it will be wrong, Guaranteed!!!....Gary I'm pretty sure that the P70 and other heavyweights all had the pull down canvas blinds...I just mentioned the venetian blind on the lightweight since it came up. LW cars had a mix of venetian and pull down shades. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:55:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Operation and Scale speed --0-917843454-1052427311=:71325 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I saw a discussion of operation with scale speed enforced. Now think about this. Speaking in HO terms, a scale mile is about 66 real feet. If the speed on a piece of railroad is 30 scale mph, this means that distance must be covered in 2 minutes. Fair enough. But hold on. A lot of you people use 6:1 scale clocks. So that 66 feet now has to be covered in 20 real seconds. That's a real scale 180 mph! To get that kind of speed, you will be running maybe 72 volts in the track, and toasting a lot of motors. There will also be a lot of wear and tear on engines, hard coupling and yanked drawbars. Not so good. Good luck! Pat EganChicago --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-917843454-1052427311=:71325 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I saw a discussion of operation with scale speed enforced.
 
Now think about this.  Speaking in HO terms, a scale mile is about 66 real feet.  If the speed on a piece of railroad is 30 scale mph, this means that distance must be covered in 2 minutes.  Fair enough.
 
But hold on.  A lot of you people use 6:1 scale clocks.  So that 66 feet now has to be covered in 20 real seconds.  That's a real scale 180 mph!  To get that kind of speed, you will be running maybe 72 volts in the track, and toasting a lot of motors.  There will also be a lot of wear and tear on engines, hard coupling and yanked drawbars.  Not so good.
 
Good luck!
 
Pat Egan
Chicago  

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-917843454-1052427311=:71325-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] PRR] Williamsport Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:47:30 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C31589.E5D2B4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the responses to my question about the bridge east of = Williamsport. I don't have track charts of Nisbet so I didn't know there = was a wye there. That explains a lot. Mr. Volkmer mentioned that there = were no through freights from Enola to Elmira when he was there in '64. = Anyone know when EC-1, EC-2, EC-3, and EC-6 listed in the Dec 1959 = Arranged Freight schedules quit running? Thanks again. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS 6703 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C31589.E5D2B4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the responses to my question = about the=20 bridge east of Williamsport. I don't have track charts of Nisbet so I = didn't=20 know there was a wye there. That explains a lot. Mr. Volkmer mentioned = that=20 there were no through freights from Enola to Elmira when he was there in = '64.=20 Anyone know when EC-1, EC-2, EC-3, and EC-6 listed in the Dec 1959 = Arranged=20 Freight schedules quit running? Thanks again.
 
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS = 6703
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C31589.E5D2B4C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Operation and Scale speed Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:41:47 -0400 Pat- I wasn't suggesting doing a scale speed in conjunction with a time clock. And actually with my layout, i won't use a timeclock (gasps from the peanut gallery), i think it will put a bit too much undue pressure on a crew or dispatcher. Anyway, to keep from straying off topic. What i meant by enforcing track speed is to have a speed that logically feels right fopr that restriction. Such as the brief street running on Pershing avenue in york. I've heard stories from enginemen on this route that "I had the liberty (limited) running westbound/north into york at 45 mph through Grantley Int., but by the time my pilot entered Pershing Ave, i was at 5 mph.". This same gentlemen also recalls having the post-war pilot of his K4 damage a few stray-parked cars too. When a train on my future layout would enter into the speed-restricted area I would want it to slow down to a very gentle crawl. This will at least give a feel of what things use to be like. The fun starts when passenger trains will be loading/unloading at York station. Prototypically they did this in two sections, the head-end cars and then the coaches and pullmans. Needless to say the motorists caught at the grade crossing were a little upset. lol. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:58:28 -0400 From: Gary Baylor Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport Mike: More info on the Williamsport Bridge From the Williamsport Grit news section November 26, 1961 BARE P.R.R. BRIDGE AWAITS DECISION "Only the steel framework remains on the Pennsylvania Railroad Bridge across the Susquehanna River, west of Chestnut Street. P.R.R. crewmen last week removed the sole track and the wooden catwalk as well as the rail ties. The fate of the bridge depends on the Lycoming County Commissioners. If they decide to convert it to vehicular use, the railroad will make the necessary arrangements. If not, the P.R.R. will dismantle it and will sell the steel for scrap. The railroad has not used the bridge since April, 1960, when it transferred mainline traffic to tracks along the south side of the river, thereby by-passing the city." Hope this helps Gary Baylor Lewisburg, PA. Mike Morrow wrote: > Can anyone tell me when the bridge that allowed trains to enter > Williamsport from the east was taken out of service? After that time how > and where were trains originating from Enola turned to go up the Elmira > Branch? > > > > Thanks > > Mike Morrow > > PRRT&HS #6703 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 19:10:32 -0500 Bruce wrote-- > > As always, very nice! BTW, I came to the conclusion last night, after > finishing the RPO issue of the Keystone, that the PBM70/PBM70a is a doable > bash from the Bachman PB70...The Bachman car would need one pair of windows > removed, and then a section added to the baggage end for the RPO...I didn't > look closely, but I wonder if this could be "salvaged" from a BCW M70B? > Great idea! Might be even easier using an ECW PB70. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco RS horns- Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 19:17:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04F1_01C31596.86498A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike--Generally it was Leslie horns for the PRR Alco road switchers, = but follow a photo to be sure. Using a DSD150 in an Alco road switcher = is not for the faint of heart or the inexperienced; it is really = cramped in there, and there isn't much room for the speaker. But it is = doable. My suggestion would be to do several hood units before tackling = a road switcher. You might check out the Soundtraxx list on Yahoo--lots = of creative folks there. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_04F1_01C31596.86498A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mike--Generally it was Leslie horns = for the PRR=20 Alco road switchers, but follow a photo to be sure.  Using a DSD150 = in an=20 Alco road switcher is not for the faint of heart or the = inexperienced;  it=20 is really cramped in there, and there isn't much room for the = speaker.  But=20 it is doable.  My suggestion would be to do several hood units = before=20 tackling a road switcher.  You might check out the Soundtraxx list = on=20 Yahoo--lots of creative folks there.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_04F1_01C31596.86498A30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Kilbride" Subject: [PRR] PRR Gons Sheet - E Gatwood Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 21:36:49 -0400 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C315A9.EEC17CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Am slowly going thru "E" mails since last week's PRRT&HS meeting.....) Sirs: I have a copy of Mr. Gatwood's handout on PRR gondolas and am willl= ing to provide a copy to any that want it for the low price of a self-add= ress, stamped envelope. Contact me for mailing address. jjk (.......trip director for the Society's offerings last weekend.) ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C315A9.EEC17CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(Am slowly= going thru "E" mails since last week's PRRT&HS meeting.....)
 
Sirs: I have a copy of Mr. Gatwood's handout o= n PRR gondolas and am willling to provide a copy to any that want it = ;for the low price of a self-address, stamped envelope. Contact me for ma= iling address.

jjk (.......trip director for the Society's off= erings last weekend.)
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C315A9.EEC17CE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 08:00:46 -0400 From: caseyj Subject: [PRR] Off-Topic..Email address problem I apologize for this post. My email address of caseyj@mail.igateway.com has been sending rejections out to people trying to contact me within the past two weeks. To those people that have been trying to contact me for the op session RSVP on May 17th or for any other reason, please send messages to caseyj@igateway.com Evidently, my ISP has changed email servers and the new one has a problem with this address. If the message gets rejected, please send it to cornwall9@yahoo.com Thanks, Nick Kulp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:27:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco RS horns- --part1_4d.2f28cff1.2bed06bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strongly suggest going with an unpowered unit for the ALCO RS-3 sound system. I have heard the ALCO sounds system first applied in a powered unit and the sound on the small speaker didn't make it -- it yielded an awful toy-like "noise." When the same sound unit was placed in an unpowered RS-3 unit with a much larger speaker there was the true ALCO sound. The speaker was mounted vertically in the unit and sounds just great. The sound unit had to be ordered with with a choice of one of three horn sounds, which was the three chime Leslie that also sounds like those used on the ALCO RS-3's. I qualify my observations as I worked on the Reading having run many ALCO RS-3's. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_4d.2f28cff1.2bed06bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Strongly suggest going with an unpowered unit f= or the ALCO RS-3 sound system.  I have heard the ALCO sounds system fir= st applied in a powered unit and the sound on the small speaker didn't make=20= it -- it yielded an awful toy-like "noise."  When the same sound unit w= as placed in an unpowered RS-3 unit with a much larger speaker there was the= true ALCO sound.  The speaker was mounted vertically in the unit and s= ounds just great. The sound unit had to be ordered with with a choice of one= of three horn sounds, which was the three chime Leslie that also sounds lik= e those used on the ALCO RS-3's.

  I qualify my observations as I worked on the Reading having run many=20= ALCO RS-3's.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_4d.2f28cff1.2bed06bd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:08:50 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs >Bruce wrote-- >> >> As always, very nice! BTW, I came to the conclusion last night, after >> finishing the RPO issue of the Keystone, that the PBM70/PBM70a is a doable >> bash from the Bachman PB70...The Bachman car would need one pair of >windows >> removed, and then a section added to the baggage end for the RPO...I >didn't >> look closely, but I wonder if this could be "salvaged" from a BCW M70B? >> >Great idea! Might be even easier using an ECW PB70. > >Steve Hoxie I like it! Only one problem. I checked last night, and this is not going to be as easy as I thought. The Bachman PB70 has a very pronounced "belt rail" that does not match the belt rail of the M70B. Since the Bachman side is supposedly a copy of the ECW side, I can't see the ECW PB70 being any better in terms of the belt rail. The bash using the M70B isn't simple either, since there are two door widths, and naturally, the one with a window on one side and panel on the other, such as was used on the PBM70 is the wrong width...so you would need to use the narrow door and panel from one end, and the window from the middle section...I'm starting to wonder how NKP would feel about an etched side...Unfortunately, its a bloody rare car...4 PBM70s and 4 nearly identical PBM70A cars. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 10:41:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/07/03 --part1_20.10d2d73e.2bed1828_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/7/03 11:06:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Pennsy Model Railroads > From: > Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:53:41 EDT > I pretty much agree with Mark. Several subscribers to this list operate my CPRR on a fairly regular basis using the car card/waybill system and I believe they (Jerry Britton & Jeff Warner for a couple) will agree with my comments. This system has been in use on the CPRR for about 20 years interrupted by a short interval about 10 years ago when I tried a couple different switch list systems. If found the computerized program to be severely restrictive. And, heaven help us if I ran between sessions or, horrors, misplaced a car. I also tried a manual switch list system about 20 years ago but couldn't keep up with it much past 3 or 4 lists and certainly not after more than about 100 cars were in use. The car card/waybill system is very flexible and needs practically no maintenance. For example, last month, Jerry was the Yardmaster. The mess he left (oooops wrong term - just kidding Jerry) in the yard at the end of the session will be almost exactly how we start the May session (I ran one "job" to keep in practice). The only thing I have done between operating sessions is to flip waybills at the various industries, sidings, local yards, etc, which took maybe 5 minutes. The other many positives about this system have been mentioned by other folks so I won't be redundant. As for jobs and assignments, I encourage my operating crew of about 15 to sign up on their own but also to change jobs occasionally. Crew members who don't sign up get drafted. I keep a simple chart showing who has operated which job so everybody gets experience in each job. Jerry listed all of the jobs (positions) used on the CPRR on a previous list. One final thought. Even though I may appear to not want to change something, every idea gets a thorough evaluation and the majority of suggestions are implemented if only for a test. Many are implemented permanently. Folks, ya gotta be flexible and ya gotta encourage your operators to think outside the box. One other thing, HAVE FUN and enjoy the wonderful camaraderie this great hobby offers! That, is the bottom line. The CPRR operates the third Saturday night of every month. Visitors are always welcome. For additonal information, directions, etc, see the CPRR website at kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/martin/ Or contact me off list at cprrboss@aol.com Bob Martin CPRR --part1_20.10d2d73e.2bed1828_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/7/03= 11:06:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Operatin= g Pennsy Model Railroads
From: <MarkCFry@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:53:41 EDT


I pretty much agree with Mark.  Several subscribers to this list op= erate my CPRR on a fairly regular basis using the car card/waybill system an= d I believe they (Jerry Britton & Jeff Warner for a couple) will agree w= ith my comments.  

This system has been in use on the CPRR for about 20 years interrupted b= y a short interval about 10 years ago when I tried a couple different switch= list systems.  If found the computerized program to be severely restri= ctive.  And, heaven help us if I ran between sessions or, horrors, misp= laced a car.  I also tried a manual switch list system about 20 years a= go but couldn't keep up with it much past 3 or 4 lists and certainly not aft= er more than about 100 cars were in use.

The car card/waybill system is very flexible and needs practically no ma= intenance.  For example, last month, Jerry was the Yardmaster.  Th= e mess he left (oooops wrong term - just kidding Jerry) in the yard at the e= nd of the session will be almost exactly how we start the May session (I ran= one "job" to keep in practice).  The only thing I have done between op= erating sessions is to flip waybills at the various industries, sidings, loc= al yards, etc, which took maybe 5 minutes.  The other many positives ab= out this system have been mentioned by other folks so I won't be redundant.=20

As for jobs and assignments, I encourage my operating crew of about 15 t= o sign up on their own but also to change jobs occasionally.  Crew memb= ers who don't sign up get drafted.  I keep a simple chart showing who h= as operated which job so everybody gets experience in each job.  Jerry=20= listed all of the jobs (positions) used on the CPRR on a previous list.

One final thought.  Even though I may appear to not want to change=20= something, every idea gets a thorough evaluation and the majority of suggest= ions are implemented if only for a test.  Many are implemented permanen= tly.  Folks, ya gotta be flexible and ya gotta encourage your operators= to think outside the box.

One other thing, HAVE FUN and enjoy the wonderful camaraderie this great= hobby offers!  That, is the bottom line.

The CPRR operates the third Saturday night of every month.  Visitor= s are always welcome.  For additonal information, directions, etc, see=20= the CPRR website at     kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/martin/=20=           Or contact me of= f list at     cprrboss@aol.com

Bob Martin
CPRR --part1_20.10d2d73e.2bed1828_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Computer Switchlists Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:47:42 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0233_01C315FF.455136E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While it's a good thing if car cards and waybills work for many = operators, it should be pointed out that products have changed over the = past 10 years. I've used both Minirail www.minirail.com and RailOp = www.railop.com and find that they are easy to set up and use and allow a = great deal of flexibility. However, there are well-known products out = there that I would not recommend, and in fact they have managed to give = the field a bad name. Minirail's car data descriptive field is big enough to allow me to add = PRR style car descriptions they way they appear in the ORER (for = instance, "Hopper, stl, slf clrg, GLa" or something like that). =20 I've operated with guys who don't have any problem handling traditional = car cards, but for myself, just for starters, I find it difficult to = keep a deck of car cards in my hand, plus carry a radio, plus carry a = throttle. One or another gets dropped. For those who want to try = another way of doing things, computer based systems do work. ------=_NextPart_000_0233_01C315FF.455136E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While it's a good thing if car cards and waybills = work for=20 many operators, it should be pointed out that products have changed over = the=20 past 10 years.   I've used both Minirail www.minirail.com and RailOp www.railop.com and find that they are = easy to=20 set up and use and allow a great deal of flexibility.   = However, there=20 are well-known products out there that I would not recommend, and in = fact they=20 have managed to give the field a bad name.
 
Minirail's car data descriptive field is big enough = to allow=20 me to add PRR style car descriptions they way they appear in the ORER = (for=20 instance, "Hopper, stl, slf clrg, GLa" or something like that). =20
 
I've operated with guys who don't have any problem = handling=20 traditional car cards, but for myself, just for starters, I find it = difficult to=20 keep a deck of car cards in my hand, plus carry a radio, plus carry a=20 throttle.  One or another gets dropped.   For those = who want=20 to try another way of doing things, computer based systems do=20 work.
------=_NextPart_000_0233_01C315FF.455136E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Gons Sheet - E Gatwood Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 08:20:05 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3163E.77F4A110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks; I can also send you one in WORD as an e-mail attachment which may or may not go thru depending on your server. And any questions are peachy with me. Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Kilbride [mailto:JKTRR@msn.com] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 6:37 PM To: PRR TALKLIST Subject: [PRR] PRR Gons Sheet - E Gatwood (Am slowly going thru "E" mails since last week's PRRT&HS meeting.....) Sirs: I have a copy of Mr. Gatwood's handout on PRR gondolas and am willling to provide a copy to any that want it for the low price of a self-address, stamped envelope. Contact me for mailing address. jjk (.......trip director for the Society's offerings last weekend.) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3163E.77F4A110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Folks;
I can also send you one in WORD as an e-mail attachment which may or may not go thru depending on your server.  And any questions are peachy with me.
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kilbride [mailto:JKTRR@msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 6:37 PM
To: PRR TALKLIST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Gons Sheet - E Gatwood

(Am slowly going thru "E" mails since last week's PRRT&HS meeting.....)
 
Sirs: I have a copy of Mr. Gatwood's handout on PRR gondolas and am willling to provide a copy to any that want it for the low price of a self-address, stamped envelope. Contact me for mailing address.

jjk (.......trip director for the Society's offerings last weekend.)
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3163E.77F4A110-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 11:38:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Jerry Britton Bill Lane took several hundred photos at the convention that he wishes to share. They are now posted in the PRRT&HS part of the Keystone Crossings site at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrths/ There are four categories: Amtrak Tour, Juniata Terminal Tour, Model Room, and Layout Room. There are thumbnails, but each category is only one page, so some pages will take a while to load...especially if you all hit it at once! During normal server loads, after the initial rush is over, these pages should serve at a decent pace. Thanks, Bill! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: [PRR] Offical: PRR in Microsoft Trainsim 2.0! Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:44:40 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C31620.607D3A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out the MSTS website at http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/ I like the boxart they show! Tom von Trott ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C31620.607D3A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Check out the MSTS website at http://www.microsoft.co= m/games/trainsim/
 
I like the boxart they = show!
 
Tom von Trott
 
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C31620.607D3A10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:38:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs >On 5/7/03 4:42 PM, "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > >> Here is my question - does anyone know when the Philadelphia-Perryville RPO >> was suspended? >> >Check the ETT's. There is a section near the front, usually right after the >passenger timetables, for "U.S. Mail Work". It's presence would assure that >the/a car was there. It's absence would not diffinitively say otherwise. OK, I'm sitting here with my Maryland Division ETT, no 5, June 18, 1944 (ain't eBay great?). On pages 96-97 the Columbia to Frederick and Frederick to Columbia passenger trains are listed. 668/669 are marked with an asterix, which, by the key at the end I take to mean "passenger train-schedule assigned to handle passenger and freight eqipment"..perhaps the odd express car? Most stops are "regular" however Graybill and Bair are noted as "E" which is "regular stop for express, mail or newspapers". No other note of possible mail service. BTW, at this date, the remaining passenger trains are marked with a maltese cross, indicating gas(oil) electric car service. U.S Mail Work (pages 102-104) gives no indication of mail work on either 668/669 or MD-58/59 as neither are listed, nor are any stops on those branches listed. However, this table ONLY indicates where mail is caught or dropped, not that there was/wasn't an RPO that sorted mail in route. On the very next page (105) Express and Milk Trains, MD58/59 are listed. All stops are listed as "E", "regular stop for express, mail or newspapers" and there is a note at the top "These trains run as passenger extras unless otherwise ordered". Also noted is "Passenger will be permitted to ride in the coach provided for the crew on train MD-58 from Oxford and intermediate points to Wawa". Interestingly, no similar note for MD-59 (southbound). I've formed the theory that MD-59 did not carry extra express reefers, and therefore did no switching, while MD-58 picked up cars in route to Philly. The R50bs would have been returned, most likely Philly to Perryville, or Philly to Wawa and then distributed by freight locals prior to pickup by MD-58. Bottom line? There is no evidence to either support or contradict the existence of an RPO on either train in the ETT, however, I KNOW 668/669 did have an RPO at this time. So I'm still asking - what were the dates of service (and schedule) of the Philly - Perryville RPO? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:02:44 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] more small RPOs At 8:12 PM -0700 5/7/03, Douglas Nelson wrote: >I have a photo of a PBM70 in a short mail/express train under the wires at >Elizabeth behind a steam loco. Anyone know what RPO route this might be and >why it is pulled by steam rather than electric? > >Doug Nelson New York, South Amboy & Philadelphia RPO? Volume 32 #4 of the Keystone indicates that the heaviest load on this route called for a 15' RPO, matching the PBM70. Steam power suggests a partial routing off of electric power, and perhaps at a location not conducive to a power change. Also possible is a shortage of electric power. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:38:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] R50bs (was: more small RPOs) --0-774099275-1052509098=:40960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, were R50bs only used in passenger service or did they also travelled on freights? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-774099275-1052509098=:40960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi,
were R50bs only used in passenger service or did they also travelled on freights?
 
Thanks, Geoffrey

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-774099275-1052509098=:40960-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 18:24:23 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Keystone Chronicles #3 Hi All, I have just opened my Keystone Chronicles #3. Since I have already read "Set Up Running" and "I Fired on the Pennsy" you should know that I LOVE reading stories like this. You can learn little things in the text, that tell you "how it really was!" I would like to thank all of those involved in contributing and producing these issues. It is MOST appreciated! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 18:24:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Keystone Chronicles #3 Hi All, I have just opened my Keystone Chronicles #3. Since I have already read "Set Up Running" and "I Fired on the Pennsy" you should know that I LOVE reading stories like this. You can learn little things in the text, that tell you "how it really was!" I would like to thank all of those involved in contributing and producing these issues. It is MOST appreciated! Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:21:59 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR convention photos Hi All, I have been debating on making this post, so here goes. It is hard to believe the PRR convention was on a week ago. Since I got my digital camera, I take LOTS of photos whenever I am on a trip. I went to the second trip of Juniata Terminal, and the Sunday Amtrak CETEC and Acela tour. I was also the official model room photographer. All models that were in the room before 9:00 had as nice of a "portrait" taken as possible given the room conditions. I could have done better in my studio. So, I am offering 700MB of photos (about 350 photos) taken of the model room, Acela & CETEC tour, Juniata tour, and the Porta Rail layout and room on CD. They are not named, but are in 4 folders as above. They all would make a crisp 8 x 10 if you wanted. I shot a few at Juniata of the E8 set as high rez TIF files, which will print even bigger. This is a good opportunity to see the convention if you could not make it. I am thinking $6.00 mailing included should cover it. I use protective CD mailers that are almost $1.00 each. My Paypal I D is this email address. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:21:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR convention photos Hi All, I have been debating on making this post, so here goes. It is hard to believe the PRR convention was on a week ago. Since I got my digital camera, I take LOTS of photos whenever I am on a trip. I went to the second trip of Juniata Terminal, and the Sunday Amtrak CETEC and Acela tour. I was also the official model room photographer. All models that were in the room before 9:00 had as nice of a "portrait" taken as possible given the room conditions. I could have done better in my studio. So, I am offering 700MB of photos (about 350 photos) taken of the model room, Acela & CETEC tour, Juniata tour, and the Porta Rail layout and room on CD. They are not named, but are in 4 folders as above. They all would make a crisp 8 x 10 if you wanted. I shot a few at Juniata of the E8 set as high rez TIF files, which will print even bigger. This is a good opportunity to see the convention if you could not make it. I am thinking $6.00 mailing included should cover it. I use protective CD mailers that are almost $1.00 each. My Paypal I D is this email address. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] heavyweight cars Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:29:51 -0400 At the convention someone brought to my attention that Rivarossi Hw cars can be had with the window portion milled out. Cannot remember who is making them, or which vendor carries/can get said item. Senior moment! Anyone on list have the answer to this one? The scratch/kit bash community is getting itchy fingers >>> build--build-----build!!!! Thanks, Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:55:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] N Scale PRR VO1000's from Atlas From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Finally! Today Atlas announced PRR VO1000's in N scale. They are road numbers 5917 and 5918. Here's are some known assignments: 5917 Built 1943 - One stack, step guards Assignment 6/44: Chicago Terminal Division Assignment 3/54: Maryland Division Assignment 8/1/57: Chesapeake Division Assignment 9/1/60: Chesapeake Division 5918 Built 1943 - One stack, step guards Assignment 6/44: Chicago Terminal Division Assignment 3/54: Atlantic Division Assignment 8/1/57: Philadelphia Division Assignment 9/1/60: Philadelphia Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:51:33 -0700 Subject: [PRR] more small RPOs W/ respect to the N-scale plastic PBM70, Bruce asked: > Really? I'm not an N-scaler, but I'm always interested...who produced it? In previous years, it was made by LIMA. It was then re-tooled (the rivet pattern is slightly different) and is still in current production by Model Power. Of the two, the LIMA car has slightly better detail. The cars even roll on correct PRR class 3D-P1 trucks! The trucks come with abysmal wheelsets, but the trucks are entirely usable once the wheelsets are replaced. See Fred klein's excellent pages below for a pic and drawing - the PBM70 is about 1/2 way down the page - the model shown is (incorrectly) lettered for Santa Fe (what else?) http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm > I know you've got us in the BM70K category ! Somebody had to do it! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] [PRR]Queen Mary (Was: more small RPOs) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:45:06 -0400 Claus, I jumped on the website just to look. Despite your comment on the observation car that was pictured, "car is probably fictitious, but it strongly resembles parlor-observation cars on the LIRR" It looks similar to the post-war version of the PRR's Queen Mary. The trucks look right, but i'm basing that on a 1963 picture my dad has of a stockholders special from New York to york to see the newly built distribution center/warehouse. The car was converted to a slatted-seat coach for WW2 and afterwards was left as a parlor/observation witha chair car configuration. I think this is right. I'm still too tired to actually look for pictures. I'll write more when i find something. Just thought i'd add something, again. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Thanks Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:10:00 -0400 Eric and I would like to thank those of your who visited Juniata last Friday as part of the convention for your generally good adherence to the "Rules for Safe Conduct". We would also like to thank the PRRTHS for the recognition and the momentos. Bennett Levin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:10:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Thanks Eric and I would like to thank those of your who visited Juniata last Friday as part of the convention for your generally good adherence to the "Rules for Safe Conduct". We would also like to thank the PRRTHS for the recognition and the momentos. Bennett Levin ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:49:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Miles, scale miles, scale time, and smiles --part1_125.219014c0.2bee6b5e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/9/03 1:14:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > I saw a discussion of operation with scale speed enforced. Now think about > this. Speaking in HO terms, a scale mile is about 66 real feet. If the > speed on a piece of railroad is 30 scale mph, this means that distance must > be covered in 2 minutes. Fair enough. But hold on. A lot of you people > use 6:1 scale clocks. So that 66 feet now has to be covered in 20 real > seconds. That's a real scale 180 mph! To get that kind of speed, you will > be running maybe 72 volts in the track, and toasting a lot of motors. > There will also be a lot of wear and tear on engines, hard coupling and > yanked drawbars. Not so good. Good luck! Pat EganChicago Nice try, Pat. It's true that, when we shrink miles to scale miles, the actual speed goes down by the scale factor (87.1 to 1 for HO). However -- for those who use scale clocks, the operating miles are shrunk by the scale clock ratio (6 to 1in your example). This "operating mile" is sometimes called a "smile". So a model railroad with 360 feet of main line is (about) 6 scale miles long. But at 6:1 fast time, it is 36 "smiles" long. And a train doing 60 scale miles per hour goes those 36 smiles in 36 "fast minutes". Or a train doing 36 smph will do those 36 smiles in one scale hour. Is everyone confused yet? This stuff is old doctrine from the days of Whit Towers. Apropos of nothing, Whit Towers and a gang of his legendary friends once descended upon the Columbus Division (my recently departed layout). I can't really remember inviting them; I was simply told they were coming. Had a hilarious time, made us all laugh, and then moved on to the next watering hole. I wish everyone could have as much outright fun operating with his friends as those guys did. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_125.219014c0.2bee6b5e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/9/03 1:= 14:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


I saw a discussion of operation= with scale speed enforced. Now think about this.  Speaking in HO terms= , a scale mile is about 66 real feet.  If the speed on a piece of railr= oad is 30 scale mph, this means that distance must be covered in 2 minutes.&= nbsp; Fair enough. But hold on.  A lot of you people use 6:1 scale cloc= ks.  So that 66 feet now has to be covered in 20 real seconds.  Th= at's a real scale 180 mph!  To get that kind of speed, you will be runn= ing maybe 72 volts in the track, and toasting a lot of motors.  There w= ill also be a lot of wear and tear on engines, hard coupling and yanked draw= bars.  Not so good. Good luck! Pat EganChicago 


Nice try, Pat.  It's true that, when we shrink miles to scale miles, th= e actual speed goes down by the scale factor (87.1 to 1 for HO).  Howev= er -- for those who use scale clocks, the operating miles are shrunk by the=20= scale clock ratio (6 to 1in your example).  This "operating mile" is so= metimes called a "smile".  So a model railroad with 360 feet of main li= ne is (about) 6 scale miles long.  But at 6:1 fast time, it is 36 "smil= es" long.  And a train doing 60 scale miles per hour goes those 36 smil= es in 36 "fast minutes".  Or a train doing 36 smph will do those 36 smi= les in one scale hour.

Is everyone confused yet?  This stuff is old doctrine from the days of=20= Whit Towers.  Apropos of nothing, Whit Towers and a gang of his legenda= ry friends once descended upon the Columbus Division (my recently departed l= ayout).  I can't really remember inviting them; I was simply told they=20= were coming.  Had a hilarious time, made us all laugh, and then moved o= n to the next watering hole.  I wish everyone could have as much outrig= ht fun operating with his friends as those guys did.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_125.219014c0.2bee6b5e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] heavyweight cars Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:49:42 -0400 Fred Freitas asked: At the convention someone brought to my attention that Rivarossi Hw cars can be had with the window portion milled out. Cannot remember who is making them, or which vendor carries/can get said item? Stan Rydarowicz is offering the Rivarossi bodies with the windows milled out, and will take Rivarossi and IHC bodies in trade, decorated or undecorated. His contact info is: Stan Rydarowicz 165 Manchester Ave Youngstown OH 44509 (330) 799-5321 He does not have e-mail. I'm on travel this weekend, but I can post the price info Monday night if you don't get a hold of Stan first. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50bs (was: more small RPOs) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:14:36 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C31739.2920DC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoffrey Van Dooren asked: Were R50b's only used in passenger service or did they also traveled on = freights? Loaded express reefers traveled in passenger service, however, empty = ones have been documented going home via freights (c.f. Thompson, PFE). Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C31739.2920DC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Geoffrey Van Dooren asked:
Were R50b's only used in passenger service or did they also = traveled on=20 freights?
 
Loaded express reefers traveled in passenger service, however, = empty=20 ones have been documented going home via freights (c.f. Thompson,=20 PFE).
 
 
Ben Hom
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C31739.2920DC60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:33:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] What sort of manual list? --part1_f5.2cd85115.2bef8f1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, I appreciate your remarks and descriptions... In a message dated 5/9/03 10:59:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob Martin writes: > I pretty much agree with Mark. Several subscribers to this list operate my > CPRR on a fairly regular basis using the car card/waybill system and I > believe they (Jerry Britton & Jeff Warner for a couple) will agree with my > comments. > > This system has been in use on the CPRR for about 20 years interrupted by a > > short interval about 10 years ago when I tried a couple different switch > list > systems. I found the computerized program to be severely restrictive. > And, > heaven help us if I ran between sessions or, horrors, misplaced a car. I > also tried a manual switch list system about 20 years ago but couldn't keep > > up with it much past 3 or 4 lists and certainly not after more than about > 100 > cars were in use. Can you sketch out the base logic of the manual list sytem you rejected? Did it require creating new paperwork for every session, or for every train's run (bummer)? > > The car card/waybill system is very flexible and needs practically no > maintenance. For example, last month, Jerry was the Yardmaster. The mess > he > left (oooops wrong term - just kidding Jerry) in the yard at the end of the > > session will be almost exactly how we start the May session (I ran one > "job" > to keep in practice). The only thing I have done between operating > sessions > is to flip waybills at the various industries, sidings, local yards, etc, > which took maybe 5 minutes. The other many positives about this system > have > been mentioned by other folks so I won't be redundant. I might quibble a little about "no maintenance" (I used to help set up car cards on a 69-car-layout, and it took 2 hours most times). However, as long as the cars and cards stay together, the system is mostly a matter of flipping those waybills. And as you say, there are many other positives, including the fact many visitors will have car card experience. I've had lots of good times operating with car cards, and really have nothing against them for small layouts. Car cards do a good job of providing the shipper/contents/consignee information that adds detail to car movement. And for the very small layout, car cards can be flipped as soon as delivery is made, providing even more activity to fill out an operating session. To my mind, car cards lose their edge on larger layouts. Once 300 or 400 cars is reached, the yard is fully occupied with a car's routing (destination direction), and could care less about the rest of the waybill. Also, as industries get larger, turning those cars only once per session becomes not only acceptable, but desirable -- my last layout's locals could barely deliver the 175 cars' industry capacity once a day. Although common wisdom says use a computer program for a large layout, as we've seen, there can be bad news there, especially if the program is based on "perpetual inventory", which means (among other things) the info in the computer must be 100% correct. For big layouts (400 cars and up), big-really-simple-almost-stupid methods like "destination switch listing" come into their own, and should be considered in the interest of saving the layout owner's sanity. While looking at these options, let's not overlook the fact that just having implemented a car movement system of any kind is a wonderful achievement. Of course, thoroughly indoctrinated by Allen McClelland and others since I was a teen, I find it bizarre that there are people who build model railroads, but don't run them as a simulation of the prototype . Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_f5.2cd85115.2bef8f1e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob,

I appreciate your remarks and descriptions...

In a message dated 5/9/03 10:59:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob Martin writ= es:


I pretty much agree with Mark.&= nbsp; Several subscribers to this list operate my
CPRR on a fairly regular basis using the car card/waybill system and I
believe they (Jerry Britton & Jeff Warner for a couple) will agree with=20= my
comments. 

This system has been in use on the CPRR for about 20 years interrupted by a=20=
short interval about 10 years ago when I tried a couple different switch lis= t
systems.  I found the computerized program to be severely restrictive.&= nbsp; And,
heaven help us if I ran between sessions or, horrors, misplaced a car. = I
also tried a manual switch list system about 20 years ago but couldn't keep=20=
up with it much past 3 or 4 lists and certainly not after more than about 10= 0
cars were in use.


Can you sketch out the base logic of the manual list sytem you rejected?&nbs= p; Did it require creating new paperwork for every session, or for every tra= in's run (bummer)?


The car card/waybill system is very flexible and needs practically no
maintenance.  For example, last month, Jerry was the Yardmaster. =20= The mess he
left (oooops wrong term - just kidding Jerry) in the yard at the end of the=20=
session will be almost exactly how we start the May session (I ran one "job"=
to keep in practice).  The only thing I have done between operating ses= sions
is to flip waybills at the various industries, sidings, local yards, etc, which took maybe 5 minutes.  The other many positives about this system= have
been mentioned by other folks so I won't be redundant.


I might quibble a little about "no maintenance" (I used to help set up car c= ards on a 69-car-layout, and it took 2 hours most times).  However, as=20= long as the cars and cards stay together, the system is mostly a matter of f= lipping those waybills.  And as you say, there are many other positives= , including the fact many visitors will have car card experience.
 
I've had lots of good times operating with car cards, and really have nothin= g against them for small layouts.  Car cards do a good job of providing= the shipper/contents/consignee information that adds detail to car movement= .  And for the very small layout, car cards can be flipped as soon as d= elivery is made, providing even more activity to fill out an operating sessi= on.

To my mind, car cards lose their edge on larger layouts.  Once 300 or 4= 00 cars is reached, the yard is fully occupied with a car's routing (destina= tion direction), and could care less about the rest of the waybill.  Al= so, as industries get larger, turning those cars only once per session becom= es not only acceptable, but desirable -- my last layout's locals could barel= y deliver the 175 cars' industry capacity once a day.  Although common=20= wisdom says use a computer program for a large layout, as we've seen, there=20= can be bad news there, especially if the program is based on "perpetual inve= ntory", which means (among other things) the info in the computer must be 10= 0% correct.  For big layouts (400 cars and up), big-really-simple-almos= t-stupid methods like "destination switch listing" come into their own, and=20= should be considered in the interest of saving the layout owner's sanity.
While looking at these options, let's not overlook the fact that just having= implemented a car movement system of any kind is a wonderful achievement.&n= bsp; Of course, thoroughly indoctrinated by Allen McClelland and others sinc= e I was a teen, I find it bizarre that there are people who build model rail= roads, but don't run them as a simulation of the prototype <G>.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_f5.2cd85115.2bef8f1e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:33:53 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] R50b and other BR express reefers in passenger service In a message dated 5/9/03 10:59:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Hi, were R50bs only used in passenger service or did they also travelled on > freights? Thanks, Geoffrey All the literature points toward passenger service only (for example, recent issues of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia have featured headend equipment, especially the R50b). The R50b was probably the Pennsy's answer to the REX (Railway Express Agency) express reefer; both were AAR Mechanical Code BR, had high speed trucks, a relatively narrow pair of side doors, had very low rooflines (13 feet plus), were iced through the roof, and had steam lines and other passenger appliances. Either car would have made a poor freight reefer. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:33:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] R50b and other BR express reefers in passenger service --part1_40.2ee3c294.2bef8f21_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/9/03 10:59:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Hi, were R50bs only used in passenger service or did they also travelled on > freights? Thanks, Geoffrey All the literature points toward passenger service only (for example, recent issues of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia have featured headend equipment, especially the R50b). The R50b was probably the Pennsy's answer to the REX (Railway Express Agency) express reefer; both were AAR Mechanical Code BR, had high speed trucks, a relatively narrow pair of side doors, had very low rooflines (13 feet plus), were iced through the roof, and had steam lines and other passenger appliances. Either car would have made a poor freight reefer. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_40.2ee3c294.2bef8f21_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/9/03 10:59:02 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Hi, were R50bs only used in pas= senger service or did they also travelled on freights? Thanks, Geoffrey

All the literature points toward passenger service only (for example, recent= issues of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia have featured headend equipment,= especially the R50b).  The R50b was probably the Pennsy's answer to th= e REX (Railway Express Agency) express reefer; both were AAR Mechanical Code= BR, had high speed trucks, a relatively narrow pair of side doors, had very= low rooflines (13 feet plus), were iced through the roof, and had steam lin= es and other passenger appliances.  Either car would have made a poor f= reight reefer.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_40.2ee3c294.2bef8f21_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 10:24:10 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Miles, scale miles, scale time, and smiles I think the "Smile" goes back to Frank Ellison's series of articles in Model Railroader Mag, in the 1940's: "The Art of Model Railroading." Steve Bartlett RickTipton wrote: ... However -- for those who use scale clocks, the operating miles are shrunk by the scale clock ratio (6 to 1in your example). This "operating mile" is sometimes called a "smile". ... This stuff is old doctrine from the days of Whit Towers.... Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] J1 Tender Work Car(s) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:59:32 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02E4_01C31793.41D7D100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On page 50 of Volume 10 of Henry Maywald's Classic Freight Cars books, = there's a photo of a PRR J1 tender painted MW yellow and used in some = type of work service. While I haven't had a chance to go through = volume III of the Morning Sun PRR paint and lettering books, this isn't = shown in Volumes I or II. =20 I remember a J1 tender painted MW yellow at Meadows. Since there is a = catenary pole in the background of the Maywald book shot, and the = weather looks very New Jersey in it, I suspect this is the same item. Does anyone know how many J1 tenders may have been converted to MW use, = and what their numbers may have been? The one in the photo appears to = be 999400. John Bruce ------=_NextPart_000_02E4_01C31793.41D7D100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On page 50 of Volume 10 of Henry Maywald's Classic = Freight=20 Cars books, there's a photo of a PRR J1 tender painted MW yellow and = used in=20 some type of work service.   While I haven't had a chance to = go=20 through volume III of the Morning Sun PRR paint and lettering books, = this isn't=20 shown in Volumes I or II. 
 
I remember a J1 tender painted MW yellow at = Meadows. =20 Since there is a catenary pole in the background of the Maywald book = shot, and=20 the weather looks very New Jersey in it, I suspect this is the same=20 item.
 
Does anyone know how many J1 tenders may have been = converted=20 to MW use, and what their numbers may have been?  The one in the = photo=20 appears to be 999400.
 
John Bruce
------=_NextPart_000_02E4_01C31793.41D7D100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Original PRR T1 List, Frankln K, I heard an interesting tid bit last night about the original T1 #6110. Frank, maybe you can share more as I heard you were the one who spotted this at the PRR Convention. Concerning Ed Woodings Large T1 Model on display, Can you explain more about this loco orignally proposed to be called "6110 Class" instead on the now known "T1". I was told that Ed's Loco was so marked as "6110 Class". When did the PRR actually start calling them T1's? Prior to being constructed? Prior to the 50 production runs? Any additional info is greatly appreciated....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Original PRR T1 List, Frankln K, I heard an interesting tid bit last night about the original T1 #6110. Frank, maybe you can share more as I heard you were the one who spotted this at the PRR Convention. Concerning Ed Woodings Large T1 Model on display, Can you explain more about this loco orignally proposed to be called "6110 Class" instead on the now known "T1". I was told that Ed's Loco was so marked as "6110 Class". When did the PRR actually start calling them T1's? Prior to being constructed? Prior to the 50 production runs? Any additional info is greatly appreciated....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Hello list, Here's one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number of the GG-1 that had trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 # 4938 with what appears to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The photo was shot in 1956. Any info is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Hello list, Here's one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number of the GG-1 that had trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 # 4938 with what appears to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The photo was shot in 1956. Any info is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:42:26 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C317CB.8A86DD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Group: While I don't know the answer, this brings up another question. = I'm sure that the PRR discontinued the use of the traditional trainphone = system before 1956. =20 WHEN WAS THE OFFICIAL END TO THE USE OF THE TRAINPHONE SYSTEM THAT = REQUIRED LOCOMOTIVES (TENDERS IN STEAM DAYS) AND CABIN CARS TO BE = EQUIPPED WITH THE ROOF MOUNTED ANTENNAE??? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Hello list, Here's one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number of the GG-1 that had trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 # 4938 with what appears to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The photo was shot in 1956. Any info is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20 =20 Choose your car now!=20 - Make -AcuraAM GeneralAston = MartinAudiBentleyBMWBuickCadillacChevroletChevrolet = TruckChryslerDaewooDodgeDodge TruckFerrariFordFord TruckGMCGMC = TruckHondaHyundaiInfinitiIsuzuJaguarJeepKiaLamborghiniLand = RoverLexusLincolnLotusMazdaMazda = TruckMercedes-BenzMercuryMitsubishiNissanNissan = TruckOldsmobilePlymouthPontiacPorscheRolls-RoyceSaabSaturnSubaruSuzukiToy= otaToyota TruckVolkswagenVolvo=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRCatenaryElectrics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C317CB.8A86DD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Group:  While I = don't know the=20 answer, this brings up another question.  I'm sure that the PRR=20 discontinued the use of the traditional trainphone system before = 1956. =20
 
WHEN WAS THE OFFICIAL = END TO THE USE=20 OF THE TRAINPHONE SYSTEM THAT REQUIRED LOCOMOTIVES (TENDERS IN STEAM = DAYS) AND=20 CABIN CARS TO BE EQUIPPED WITH THE ROOF MOUNTED ANTENNAE???
 
All the best to you and yours      =20 Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 zootowerprr@webtv.net
To: PRRCatenaryElectrics= @yahoogroups.com=20 ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 = 12:51 PM
Subject: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] = GG-1 with=20 trainphone antenna

Hello list,

      = Here's=20 one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number of
the GG-1 = that had=20 trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 #
4938 with what = appears=20 to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The
photo was shot in = 1956. Any=20 info is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

   Dave=20 Hopson


Yahoo! = Groups=20 Sponsor
=
Choose = your car=20 now!
  =
3D""=20

To=20 unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
PRRCaten= aryElectrics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your= =20 use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C317CB.8A86DD00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 15:16:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] GG-1 with trainphone antenna In a message dated 5/11/03 2:13:42 PM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > Hello list, > > Here's one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number of > the GG-1 that had trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 # > 4938 with what appears to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The > photo was shot in 1956. Any info is appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > > Dave, As far as I know, none of the G's had trainphone antennas. But saying this, I have always wondered, but never asked what they used for an antenna system as they where radio equiped. Any one out there have any light to shine on this? Jon S. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 15:11:31 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C317CF.9AC6E120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi The following is from a file I keep on my HD. It is only collected = tidbits from these message groups. So, take it with a grain of salt. I cannot answer the specific question about GG1's. Sometime in 1962, the PRR "started" to "not equip" locos and cabins with = the trainphone. Sometime in 1964, dieseasil's were bought without the trainphone. Sometime in 1966, most if not all locos and cabins did not have the = trainphones anymore. On 30 April 1967, the PRR formally announced no more use of the = trainphone. It was replaced by ? Again, just from notes. Any corrections gladly accepted. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & SPF ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Weldon Greiger=20 To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, 11 May, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Group: While I don't know the answer, this brings up another = question. I'm sure that the PRR discontinued the use of the traditional = trainphone system before 1956. =20 WHEN WAS THE OFFICIAL END TO THE USE OF THE TRAINPHONE SYSTEM THAT = REQUIRED LOCOMOTIVES (TENDERS IN STEAM DAYS) AND CABIN CARS TO BE = EQUIPPED WITH THE ROOF MOUNTED ANTENNAE??? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Hello list, Here's one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number = of the GG-1 that had trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 = # 4938 with what appears to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The photo was shot in 1956. Any info is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C317CF.9AC6E120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi
 
The following is from a file I keep on my = HD.  It=20 is only collected tidbits from these message groups.  So, take it = with a=20 grain of salt.
 
I cannot answer the specific question about=20 GG1's.
 
Sometime in 1962, the PRR "started" to "not = equip"=20 locos and cabins with the trainphone.
 
Sometime in 1964, dieseasil's were bought = without the=20 trainphone.
 
Sometime in 1966, most if not all locos and = cabins did=20 not have the trainphones anymore.
 
On 30 April 1967, the PRR formally announced = no more=20 use of the trainphone.  It was replaced by ?
 
Again, just from notes.  Any corrections = gladly=20 accepted.
 
Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS = #1204 &=20 SPF
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Weldon=20 Greiger
To: PRRCatenaryElectrics= @yahoogroups.com=20 ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Sunday, 11 May, 2003 1:42 = PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: = [PRRCatenaryElectrics]=20 GG-1 with trainphone antenna

Group:  While I = don't know the=20 answer, this brings up another question.  I'm sure that the PRR=20 discontinued the use of the traditional trainphone system before = 1956. =20
 
WHEN WAS THE OFFICIAL = END TO THE=20 USE OF THE TRAINPHONE SYSTEM THAT REQUIRED LOCOMOTIVES (TENDERS IN = STEAM DAYS)=20 AND CABIN CARS TO BE EQUIPPED WITH THE ROOF MOUNTED = ANTENNAE???
 
All the best to you and yours       = Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 zootowerprr@webtv.net =
To: PRRCatenaryElectrics= @yahoogroups.com=20 ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 = 12:51=20 PM
Subject: = [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1=20 with trainphone antenna

Hello=20 list,

      Here's one for the GG-1 = experts.=20 Does anyone know the number of
the GG-1 that had trainphone = antenna? I=20 have seen one photo of GG-1 #
4938 with what appears to be = trainphone but=20 the photo is fuzzy. The
photo was shot in 1956. Any info is = appreciated.=20 Thanks in advance.

   Dave=20 Hopson
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C317CF.9AC6E120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: "Pennsy Nut" From: "Pennsy Nut" Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 15:11:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Hi The following is from a file I keep on my HD. It is only collected tidbits from these message groups. So, take it with a grain of salt. I cannot answer the specific question about GG1's. Sometime in 1962, the PRR "started" to "not equip" locos and cabins with the trainphone. Sometime in 1964, dieseasil's were bought without the trainphone. Sometime in 1966, most if not all locos and cabins did not have the trainphones anymore. On 30 April 1967, the PRR formally announced no more use of the trainphone. It was replaced by ? Again, just from notes. Any corrections gladly accepted. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: Weldon Greiger To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Group: While I don't know the answer, this brings up another question. I'm sure that the PRR discontinued the use of the traditional trainphone system before 1956. WHEN WAS THE OFFICIAL END TO THE USE OF THE TRAINPHONE SYSTEM THAT REQUIRED LOCOMOTIVES (TENDERS IN STEAM DAYS) AND CABIN CARS TO BE EQUIPPED WITH THE ROOF MOUNTED ANTENNAE??? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: [PRRCatenaryElectrics] GG-1 with trainphone antenna Hello list, Here's one for the GG-1 experts. Does anyone know the number of the GG-1 that had trainphone antenna? I have seen one photo of GG-1 # 4938 with what appears to be trainphone but the photo is fuzzy. The photo was shot in 1956. Any info is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 Tender Work Car(s) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:30:57 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0163_01C317DA.B332DBF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was one in Reading just east of the Schuylkill River Bridge! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Bruce=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:59 AM Subject: [PRR] J1 Tender Work Car(s) On page 50 of Volume 10 of Henry Maywald's Classic Freight Cars books, = there's a photo of a PRR J1 tender painted MW yellow and used in some = type of work service. While I haven't had a chance to go through = volume III of the Morning Sun PRR paint and lettering books, this isn't = shown in Volumes I or II. =20 I remember a J1 tender painted MW yellow at Meadows. Since there is a = catenary pole in the background of the Maywald book shot, and the = weather looks very New Jersey in it, I suspect this is the same item. Does anyone know how many J1 tenders may have been converted to MW = use, and what their numbers may have been? The one in the photo appears = to be 999400. John Bruce ------=_NextPart_000_0163_01C317DA.B332DBF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was one in Reading just east of = the=20 Schuylkill River Bridge!
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John = Bruce
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 = 10:59 AM
Subject: [PRR] J1 Tender Work=20 Car(s)

On page 50 of Volume 10 of Henry Maywald's Classic = Freight=20 Cars books, there's a photo of a PRR J1 tender painted MW yellow and = used in=20 some type of work service.   While I haven't had a chance to = go=20 through volume III of the Morning Sun PRR paint and lettering books, = this=20 isn't shown in Volumes I or II. 
 
I remember a J1 tender painted MW yellow at = Meadows. =20 Since there is a catenary pole in the background of the Maywald book = shot, and=20 the weather looks very New Jersey in it, I suspect this is the same=20 item.
 
Does anyone know how many J1 tenders may have been = converted=20 to MW use, and what their numbers may have been?  The one in the = photo=20 appears to be 999400.
 
John Bruce
------=_NextPart_000_0163_01C317DA.B332DBF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:59:19 -0700 Subject: [PRR] GR&I 40 Hi list members, At the PRRT&HS convention, I purchased the following photo of GR&I 40, taken at Kalamazoo Mich. http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/loco/GRI40-H3.jpg Note the loco has a belpaire firebox. Can anyone tell me, is this an H3 (or H3 subclass) loco? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] GR&I 40 Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:40:26 -0400 Claus, Looks more like a Class H2 to me. The boiler's too small for an H3. See this one from NERails site: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr7030.jpg Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: [PRR] GR&I 40 > Hi list members, > > At the PRRT&HS convention, I purchased the following photo > of GR&I 40, taken at Kalamazoo Mich. > > http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/loco/GRI40-H3.jpg > > Note the loco has a belpaire firebox. > > Can anyone tell me, is this an H3 (or H3 subclass) loco? > > - Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:58:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 Tender Work Car(s) --part1_173.1a1878eb.2bf02f7d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of these J1 tenders, in black or DGLE, was located in Reading, Pa. just east of the Pennsy's station beneath Penn St.. Beleive it was used to store diesel fuel for the locos. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_173.1a1878eb.2bf02f7d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   One of these J1 tenders, in black or DGLE, was=20= located in Reading, Pa. just east of the Pennsy's station beneath Penn St..&= nbsp; Beleive it was used to store diesel fuel for the locos.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_173.1a1878eb.2bf02f7d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:30:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] GG-1 with trainphone antenna SNIP > > > Dave, > > As far as I know, none of the G's had trainphone antennas. But saying this, > I have always wondered, but never asked what they used for an antenna system > as they where radio equipped. Any one out there have any light to shine on > this? > > Jon S. Radio equipped maybe with the post 1965 FM radio. PRR Trainphone equipped, NO. I rode 1,000s of miles in GG-1 cabs while a Mechanical Department employee (1965-1969). Garry Spear ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:30:53 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] GG-1 with trainphone antenna SNIP > > > Dave, > > As far as I know, none of the G's had trainphone antennas. But saying this, > I have always wondered, but never asked what they used for an antenna system > as they where radio equipped. Any one out there have any light to shine on > this? > > Jon S. Radio equipped maybe with the post 1965 FM radio. PRR Trainphone equipped, NO. I rode 1,000s of miles in GG-1 cabs while a Mechanical Department employee (1965-1969). Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:15:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/11/03 --part1_171.1e739e22.2bf04f95_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/03 4:14:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > What sort of manual list? > by > > A horror! It sounded simple until I got to about the 4th train order. Here's a quick & dirty of how it worked (or didn't work). All example trains will have a variety of five cars and starts with no cars at any industry. Assume there are 10 industries. Train #1 - drops all cars at five different industries. Train #2 - drops cars at 3 new and 2 old industries. Pick up 2 cars dropped from train #1 at one other old industry. Train #3 - drops cars at the other 2 new industries and 3 others. Pick up 4 cars from . . . . . at this point, one starts to get lost. Keeping track was a nightmare. Each train order required every previous train order. Every previous train order had to have its cars crossed off the list and listed on the new order when they were picked up ad-infinitum. Eventually, a train order would have all of its cars picked up and then and only then could that train order be destroyed. The CPRR has more than 300 freight cars and we probably move between one third and one half of them every operating session if we have a full crew of 12-14 operators. Please note that some movements are between two staging yards or from on line to staging yard #1 or staging yard #2 to on line but I'd guess (have never counted) we set out or pick up 125-150 cars from on line industries each operating session. Occasionally, I'll hear the Yardmaster radio the Dispatcher that he has a job ready for a destination served earlier in the operating session. When that happens, I have to hustle to flip waybills for some of the cars in those destination towns. The other waybills get turned between operating sessions. The Yardmaster and assistant does not have to be concerned with offline destinations because on the CPRR, there is only one destination. All offline traffic is routed to the #1 staging- FM Staging yard (hidden). Trains are moved from that staging yard to #2 staging-KNAT Staging yard about two months later. Then, about two months after arriving in KNAT, the train appears on line at the York yard, is broken up, cars delivered on line and the cycle repeats. Sometime this summer, I hope to start using the KNAT staging yard as a secondary classification yard. But, that's another story. So, what was your question?! Just kidding. I hope I answered the manual list question and also hope I didn't get to carried away with the rest of it. If I did, Jerry can advise me Saturday night. By the way, you can read a synopsis of the CPRR history and other CPRR info at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/martin/ BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line --part1_171.1e739e22.2bf04f95_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/11/03 4:14:57 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


What sort of manual list?
         by <RickTipton= @aol.com>


A horror!  It sounded simple until I got to about the 4th train ord= er.  Here's a quick & dirty of how it worked (or didn't work). &nbs= p;All example trains will have a variety of five cars and starts with no car= s at any industry.  Assume there are 10 industries.  

Train #1 - drops all cars at five different industries.
Train #2 - drops cars at 3 new and 2 old industries.  Pick up 2 car= s dropped from train #1 at one other old industry.
Train #3 - drops cars at the other 2 new industries and 3 others.  = Pick up 4 cars from . . . . .  at this point, one starts to get lost.

Keeping track was a nightmare.  Each train order required every pre= vious train order.  Every previous train order had to have its cars cro= ssed off the list and listed on the new order when they were picked up ad-in= finitum.  Eventually, a train order would have all of its cars picked u= p and then and only then could that train order be destroyed.   

The CPRR has more than 300 freight cars and we probably move between one= third and one half of them every operating session if we have a full crew o= f 12-14 operators.  Please note that some movements are between two sta= ging yards or from on line to staging yard #1 or staging yard #2 to on line=20= but I'd guess (have never counted) we set out or pick up 125-150 cars from o= n line industries each operating session.  
Occasionally, I'll hear the Yardmaster radio the Dispatcher that he has=20= a job ready for a destination served earlier in the operating session.  = ;When that happens, I have to hustle to flip waybills for some of the cars i= n those destination towns.  The other waybills get turned between opera= ting sessions.

The Yardmaster and assistant does not have to be concerned with offline=20= destinations because on the CPRR, there is only one destination.  All o= ffline traffic is routed to the #1 staging- FM Staging yard (hidden).  = Trains are moved from that staging yard to #2 staging-KNAT Staging yard abou= t two months later.  Then, about two months after arriving in KNAT, the= train appears on line at the York yard, is broken up, cars delivered on lin= e and the cycle repeats.    

Sometime this summer, I hope to start using the KNAT staging yard as a s= econdary classification yard.  But, that's another story.

So, what was your question?!  Just kidding.  I hope I answered= the manual list question and also hope I didn't get to carried away with th= e rest of it.  If I did, Jerry can advise me Saturday night.

By the way, you can read a synopsis of the CPRR history and other CPRR i= nfo at      http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/martin/

BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line

--part1_171.1e739e22.2bf04f95_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:00:42 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/11/03 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_SKVcCBuSwXYvgwN4r+JMvQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: It sounded simple until I got to about the 4th train order. Train #1 - drops all cars at five different industries. Train #2 - drops cars at 3 new and 2 old industries. Pick up 2 cars dropped from train #1 at one other old industry, etc., etc. In the real world the use of the "Train Order" terminology to the type of instructions shown above is completely incorrect. "Train Orders" were instructions to trains as to how they should operate. "When conditions warrant a variation from the regular schedule, or when special movements are made, the dispatcher issues 'train orders' addressed to those persons involved in their proper execution." [E.J. Phillips] "Train Orders" do NOT specify what work is to be done at each station. Al. --Boundary_(ID_SKVcCBuSwXYvgwN4r+JMvQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
RE: It sounded simple until I got to about the 4th train order. Train #1 - drops all cars at five different industries. Train #2 - drops cars at 3 new and 2 old
industries.  Pick up 2 cars dropped from train #1 at one other old industry, etc., etc.
 
In the real world the use of the "Train Order" terminology to the type of instructions shown above is completely incorrect. "Train Orders" were instructions to trains as to how they should operate. "When conditions warrant a variation from the regular schedule, or when special movements are made, the dispatcher issues 'train orders' addressed to those persons involved in their proper execution."  [E.J. Phillips]
 
"Train Orders" do NOT specify what work is to be done at each station.
 
Al.
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_SKVcCBuSwXYvgwN4r+JMvQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 04:22:42 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification It's doubtful that a GG1, or any other straight electric, was equipped with a trainphone antenna, except for tests. Reason is, the tests were unsatisfactory. Interference from the AC power circuits caused the PRR to install trainphone only in non-electrified areas. Ken Douglas found and documented this in the book, "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968." His co-author looked on in amazement. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:02:26 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification > It's doubtful that a GG1, or any other straight electric, was equipped > with a trainphone antenna, except for tests. > Reason is, the tests were unsatisfactory. Interference from the > AC power circuits Other reports differ. (no: I can't find the cites.) Reported problem was trainphone range was TOO LARGE, due to the excellent 'coupling' via the overhead system. As to interference: Trainphone WAS FM... (That i do have the cite for...) (the 'use' of trainphone was modeled on (relatively short) range of a few miles, say under 10. Long range lead to interference...) > caused the PRR to install trainphone only in non-electrified > areas. There is a subtle effect Electrification was (largely) high traffic lines. High traffic lines had frequent towers. With frequent towers there is less need for radio (of either sort...). > Ken Douglas found and documented this in the book, "Pennsy > Diesels 1924-1968." His co-author looked on in amazement. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification Hi Peter and list, We did find two photos of GG1 4938 with trainphone antenna. So at least one GG1 had antenna. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:02:49 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 Tender Work Car(s) > On page 50 of Volume 10 of Henry Maywald's Classic Freight Cars >books, there's a photo of a PRR J1 tender painted MW yellow and used in >some type of work service. While I haven't had a chance to go through >volume III of the Morning Sun PRR paint and lettering books, this isn't >shown in Volumes I or II. I remember a J1 tender painted MW yellow at >Meadows. Since there is a catenary pole in the background of the Maywald >book shot, and the weather looks very New Jersey in it, I suspect this is >the same item. Vol III does indeed have a shot of 999400 in MOW yellow. The caption claims that it is in fuel storage service in Harrisburg (Jerry - do you need a fuel service tender stationed at the station? or is this too modern for you?). IMHO the bigger tenders got used for their liquid storage capacity and would have been stationay "tanks" that could be moved if needed. having seaid that , at least one 21,000 gallon tender was converted to wreck service. A variety of tenders were also converted to service the steam derricks...interestingly, tenders for steam derricks appears to be a trasition to diesel era phenomenon, and not as common during the steam era (after all, with a steam loco, you had a tender and the crane crew could borrow coal and water if needed...). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:40:04 -0400 Where are these photos located? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Peter Weiglin" ; Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification > Hi Peter and list, > > We did find two photos of GG1 4938 with trainphone antenna. So at > least one GG1 had antenna. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:18:06 -0400 Hi all, A little help is needed!! Re: P70fbR passenger cars. These cars were rebuilt from P70's circa 1948-51 and had the porthole window toilet rooms, mechanical airconditiong and new Commonwealth trucks. The question I was asked is: When these cars were rebuilt, were they rebuilt with BOTH clearstory AND balloon style (round) roofs, or were they rebuilt with the original clearstory style roof only??? All photographs I have seen show the balloon roof version ONLY with the Scotchbright keystone lettering scheme which was introduced in the early to mid 60's as preperation for the PC merger. I have NEVER seen a round-roof P70fbR in the standard PRR lettering scheme. The clearstory roofs were prone to leaking and were replaced with the balloon style as a fix. Was this done in the late 50's, early 60's, or during the re-build of 1948-51? If in the late 50's-60's then a round-roof P70fbR would NOT be correct for a railroad set in the 1954-55 time frame. Any info, or photo evidence would be greatly appreciated. Buzz **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] Train Sim2 and the PRR Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:43:15 GMT MSTS2 Pennsy screen shots can be seen at: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/trainsimulator2/screenindex.html Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:25:40 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification Ken's knowledge, and his diligence in pursuit thereof, always amazes me. There seems to be some confusion in the posts between Trainphone, which was not a "radio" system in the true sense, and true radio, with firecracker antennas, etc. Peter Weiglin = = = = Bill Volkmer wrote: > So why was his co-author amazed? The damned things never worked right > in the non-electrified territory either when you come right down to it! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Weiglin > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 7:23 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Trainphone and Electrification > > It's doubtful that a GG1, or any other straight electric, was equipped > with a trainphone antenna, except for tests. > > Reason is, the tests were unsatisfactory. Interference from the AC > power circuits caused the PRR to install trainphone only in > non-electrified areas. Ken Douglas found and documented this in the > book, "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968." His co-author looked on in amazement. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Ice activated air conditioning --0-81725932-1052765058=:18839 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List members Recently read that most heavyweight PRR passenger cars used the Ice activated air conditioning system. This seems to be supported by the information supplied in the Pullman Company list of cars for 1950. Same source also said that when Pullman assigned one of its cars to a railroad or supplied a pool car for a specific purpose that they normally tried to supply a car that used the ac system preferred by the railroad, in the case of the PRR, ice activated. Is this a generally true statement? Also, any details on the amount of ice necessary to cool a car, what size blocks were used, how long they lasted, facilities and equipment in coach yards used for icing, etc? Were special ice service cars used to supply block ice to coach yards for passenger AC service, and anyone know of any photos, details of car numbers, etc., for cars used in that service? Once again, thanks in advance for any information. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-81725932-1052765058=:18839 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
List members
 
Recently read that most  heavyweight PRR passenger cars used the Ice activated air conditioning system.  This seems to be supported by the information supplied in the Pullman Company list of cars for 1950. 
 
Same source also said that when Pullman assigned one of its cars to a railroad or supplied a pool car for a specific purpose that they normally tried to supply a car that used the ac system preferred by the railroad, in the case of the PRR, ice activated. Is this a generally true statement?
 
Also, any details on the amount of ice necessary to cool a car, what size blocks were used, how long they lasted, facilities and equipment in coach yards used for icing, etc?  Were special ice service cars used to supply block ice to coach yards for passenger AC service, and anyone know of any photos, details of car numbers, etc., for cars used in that service?
 
Once again, thanks in advance for any information.
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-81725932-1052765058=:18839-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Ice activated air conditioning List members Recently read that most heavyweight PRR passenger cars used the Ice activated air conditioning system. This seems to be supported by the information supplied in the Pullman Company list of cars for 1950. Same source also said that when Pullman assigned one of its cars to a railroad or supplied a pool car for a specific purpose that they normally tried to supply a car that used the ac system preferred by the railroad, in the case of the PRR, ice activated. Is this a generally true statement? Also, any details on the amount of ice necessary to cool a car, what size blocks were used, how long they lasted, facilities and equipment in coach yards used for icing, etc? Were special ice service cars used to supply block ice to coach yards for passenger AC service, and anyone know of any photos, details of car numbers, etc., for cars used in that service? Once again, thanks in advance for any information. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:20:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Streamlined K4 Last week I saw a gorgeous O scale brass model of the Lowey streamlined K4 for the '38 Broadway. The tender had the water hatches running fore-and-aft and positioned all the way outboard under the curved side sheet fairing. (Is that enough nautical terminology?) There is no way they could be opened such that the spout of a water tower could reach them! There was some sort of track arrangement running from hatch to hatch across the tender deck that seemed to be part of the solution to this problem, but neither the owner of the model nor I could figure out how they got water into that puppy! Anyone know? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:20:22 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Streamlined K4 Last week I saw a gorgeous O scale brass model of the Lowey streamlined K4 for the '38 Broadway. The tender had the water hatches running fore-and-aft and positioned all the way outboard under the curved side sheet fairing. (Is that enough nautical terminology?) There is no way they could be opened such that the spout of a water tower could reach them! There was some sort of track arrangement running from hatch to hatch across the tender deck that seemed to be part of the solution to this problem, but neither the owner of the model nor I could figure out how they got water into that puppy! Anyone know? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Streamlined K4 Andy, I believe the water was loaded the normal way. The curved part of the fairing had a drop down door so the spout could swing into position. Many late era photos of the streamlined K4s show the door/hatch completely removed......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Streamlined K4 Andy, I believe the water was loaded the normal way. The curved part of the fairing had a drop down door so the spout could swing into position. Many late era photos of the streamlined K4s show the door/hatch completely removed......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 Andy,         I believe the water was loaded the normal way. The curved part of the fairing had a drop down door so the spout could swing into position. Many late era photos of the streamlined K4s show the door/hatch completely removed......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 Andy, I just re-read your post. I passed right over the mention that the 2 hatches were lengthwise and under the curvature of the shroud? That is puzzling. Is this an Alco or Weaver Model? I have a Key Import 3768 and it has 1 hatch widthwise. There are etched doors in the shroud I mentioned in my first post that would allow the spout to swing into position. With 1 hatch there is no problem when opening. I can't be 100% sure but maybe the O scale models Hatches are a boo boo in positioning? Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 Andy, I just re-read your post. I passed right over the mention that the 2 hatches were lengthwise and under the curvature of the shroud? That is puzzling. Is this an Alco or Weaver Model? I have a Key Import 3768 and it has 1 hatch widthwise. There are etched doors in the shroud I mentioned in my first post that would allow the spout to swing into position. With 1 hatch there is no problem when opening. I can't be 100% sure but maybe the O scale models Hatches are a boo boo in positioning? Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:44:51 -0400 From: "cwhary" Subject: [PRR] PRR BP-20 "A Wanted People, I'm looking for an HO scale: Oriental Limited PRR BP-20 "A" unit Factory Painted Tuscan Red Single Headlight Five Gold Stripes New in the box or at least Mint condition Would you have one you like to part with? If not would you know of anyone who does have one? Thanks to all in advance Charles -- Charles E. Whary -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: [PRR] SEPTA Tower Tragedy Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:14:41 +0000 I don't know how I missed this, but over the last 9 months SEPTA managed to close its last remaining interlocking towers! While the demise of A tower and WIND were well documented, what wasn't widely reported was that in September WAYNE closed, followed by MARK in October and BROAD on March 15th. This comes as a total shock as both BROAD and WAYNE were considered unclosable due to their complexity and traffic levels. These losses are particiularily grevious as WAYNE was the last open Reading RR tower and BROAD contained a huge 131 level US&S model 14 machine. Moreover, unline ZOO or STATE or DOCK, which have similarly sized machines, BROAD was virtually unchanged from its configuration in PRR days. Many times I had been tempted to venture up the spiral staircase and visit BROAD, but I never felt enough urgency. I am still unsure why SEPTA made this move as we all know they have no $$ and it didn't seem to save them any manpower as each tower has been effectivly replaced by a dispatching desk on a 1 to 1 basis. Furthermore, WAYNE and WIND were essentially rebuilt about 10-13 years ago to CTC the entire Reading division and probably had quite a good number of years left in them. I do not know the location of the new dispatching center, but there is a chance that it might be located in the old Wayne towre building, but I highly doubt it. With NORTH PHILADELPHIA teetering on the edge of closure, Philly has gone from a surviving bastion of tower oprations to a virtually wasteland in under a year. With the demise of SEPTA's tower system only the LIRR remains as the last tower controled railroad in the nation. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70fbr Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:20:22 -0400 Thanks Fred, The NJ Intl book was one of my sources as well as Wayner's and the PRRT&HS book by Blairdone & Tilp and the new color PRR passenger books (I forget the authors). Vague mentions of both roof styles but no photo's to verify. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Fred Freitas [mailto:pennsy@sover.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 1997 2:21 AM To: Burnley, Charles Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fbr Source I'm using is NJIntl. PRR diagram book. Shows #1714 w/round roof and #1744 w/clerestory roof. Lists series as: 1600-1765, rebuilding was done with both roof styles. Photos are ones with no roadname w/scotchlite keystones at each end; number at each end as well. Source 2] ORER/Pass1954 notes P70fb [ no "r"]; the text reads that when a car was air conditioned it received the "r" suffix. Hope this gives you a place to start Fred in Vt. 'r **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:22:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 I doubt that its a mistake As I mentioned, there is an elaborate rail system running crosswise from hatch to hatch. I doubt that they made that up. Next time I see the model I will bring my digital camera. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > Andy, > > I just re-read your post. I passed right over the mention that the 2 > hatches were lengthwise and under the curvature of the shroud? That is > puzzling. Is this an Alco or Weaver Model? I have a Key Import 3768 and > it has 1 hatch widthwise. There are etched doors in the shroud I > mentioned in my first post that would allow the spout to swing into > position. With 1 hatch there is no problem when opening. I can't be > 100% sure but maybe the O scale models Hatches are a boo boo in > positioning? Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:22:46 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 I doubt that its a mistake As I mentioned, there is an elaborate rail system running crosswise from hatch to hatch. I doubt that they made that up. Next time I see the model I will bring my digital camera. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > Andy, > > I just re-read your post. I passed right over the mention that the 2 > hatches were lengthwise and under the curvature of the shroud? That is > puzzling. Is this an Alco or Weaver Model? I have a Key Import 3768 and > it has 1 hatch widthwise. There are etched doors in the shroud I > mentioned in my first post that would allow the spout to swing into > position. With 1 hatch there is no problem when opening. I can't be > 100% sure but maybe the O scale models Hatches are a boo boo in > positioning? Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] GR&I 40 Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:29:15 -0400 Claus, According to Edson's "All-Time Steam Locomotive Roster", GR&I 2-8-0 #40 was PRR class H33, formerly GR&I class GH3. Number 40 was built new for the GR&I by Baldwin in May 1892, construction number 12682. It had 20x24 cylinders and 50" drivers, same as PRR classes H1, H2 and H3. I don't have other specs on H33, so don't know what the difference was between it and standard PRR classes. As built, the locomotive carried road number 305. It was renumbered to 40 in November 1896, to 240 in June or July 1913, and to 09566 in September 1920. It was sold for scrap in March 1923. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: [PRR] GR&I 40 > Hi list members, > > At the PRRT&HS convention, I purchased the following photo > of GR&I 40, taken at Kalamazoo Mich. > > http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/loco/GRI40-H3.jpg > > Note the loco has a belpaire firebox. > > Can anyone tell me, is this an H3 (or H3 subclass) loco? > > - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Pullman Fares... Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:40:10 -0400 List, I trust this is not too far "off topic". I have read about Pullman fares, and about how one paid for a first-class fare to the appropriate railroad, and the Pullman fare was in addition to the RR first-class fare. Can someone give me an example of what a typical ratio might be? In particular and for example, for the Broadway Limited from NYC to CHI, for passage for two on the Mountain View, occupying the Master Room, in the late days of the Broadway, what would the PRR fare and the Pullman fares be? If you have corresponding fares from another time period, please reply. TIA, Don ------------------------------------------ Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net All outgoing email and attachments checked with Norton Anti-Virus ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:53:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman Fares... --part1_3c.2f7522ff.2bf18dee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to the "sample fares" data contained in my PRR form 4 timetable (dated 9-28-52) the total cost between New York and Chicago broke down like this: one-way rail ticket fare (for travel in Pullman) = $40.89 per person Pullman Fare for one Master Room = $37.05 (double occupancy required) If I did my math correctly, that would be a total of $118.83 for two adults traveling one-way. Apparently by this late date, the Pennsy had done away with it's "extra fare" flat-rate charge for the Broadway Limited, although such fees still applied on several western trains. Chris B #1918 --part1_3c.2f7522ff.2bf18dee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to the "sample fares" data contained in my P= RR form 4 timetable (dated 9-28-52) the total cost between New York and Chic= ago broke down like this:

one-way rail ticket fare (for travel in Pullman) =3D $40.89 per person
Pullman Fare for one Master Room =3D $37.05 (double occupancy required)

If I did my math correctly, that would be a total of $118.83 for two adults=20= traveling one-way.  Apparently by this late date, the Pennsy had done a= way with it's "extra fare" flat-rate charge for the Broadway Limited,= although such fees still applied on several western trains.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_3c.2f7522ff.2bf18dee_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:59:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ice activated air conditioning --part1_17b.1a2a8b10.2bf18f66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the June issue of Trains magazine there is a photo of the icing activity for a heavyweight parlor car circa 1956. This should give you some idea of the size of the ice blocks and the associated bunkers are in the photo too. The ice is being moved by several employees on a rather odd-looking cart. Chris B #1918 --part1_17b.1a2a8b10.2bf18f66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the June issue of Trains magazine there is a photo=20= of the icing activity for a heavyweight parlor car circa 1956.  This sh= ould give you some idea of the size of the ice blocks and the associated bun= kers are in the photo too.  The ice is being moved by several employees= on a rather odd-looking cart.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_17b.1a2a8b10.2bf18f66_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pullman Fares... Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:39:22 -0500 Pullman also required a minimum number of tickets (or fares) depending on the accomodation. -----Original Message----- From: Don E. Anderson, Jr. [mailto:ande1857@bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:40 PM To: PCL (E-mail); PRR Talk (E-mail) Subject: [PRR] Pullman Fares... List, I trust this is not too far "off topic". I have read about Pullman fares, and about how one paid for a first-class fare to the appropriate railroad, and the Pullman fare was in addition to the RR first-class fare. Can someone give me an example of what a typical ratio might be? In particular and for example, for the Broadway Limited from NYC to CHI, for passage for two on the Mountain View, occupying the Master Room, in the late days of the Broadway, what would the PRR fare and the Pullman fares be? If you have corresponding fares from another time period, please reply. TIA, Don ------------------------------------------ Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net All outgoing email and attachments checked with Norton Anti-Virus ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA Tower Tragedy Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:46:55 -0700 I thought the lever machine in Broad didn't survive the reworking the plant got in 1985? I know the switch machines out in the field got different yellow numbers painted on them, and the signals got new numbers painted on their backs at that time. I just figured that the lever machine was removed. And what is this spiral staircase? Broad is at the end of the long hallway leading off the east end of the suburban station concourse. I've been to the ends of the platforms and never seen a spiral staircase. I tried to visit Broad in 2000. I asked permission to peak inside, but was denied. I was watched very suspiciously by a security guard. John -----Original Message----- From: E. Mike To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; Reading-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] SEPTA Tower Tragedy >I don't know how I missed this, but over the last 9 months SEPTA managed to >close its last remaining interlocking towers! While the demise of A tower >and WIND were well documented, what wasn't widely reported was that in >September WAYNE closed, followed by MARK in October and BROAD on March 15th. >This comes as a total shock as both BROAD and WAYNE were considered >unclosable due to their complexity and traffic levels. >These losses are particiularily grevious as WAYNE was the last open Reading >RR tower and BROAD contained a huge 131 level US&S model 14 machine. >Moreover, unline ZOO or STATE or DOCK, which have similarly sized machines, >BROAD was virtually unchanged from its configuration in PRR days. Many times >I had been tempted to venture up the spiral staircase and visit BROAD, but I >never felt enough urgency. > >I am still unsure why SEPTA made this move as we all know they have no $$ >and it didn't seem to save them any manpower as each tower has been >effectivly replaced by a dispatching desk on a 1 to 1 basis. Furthermore, >WAYNE and WIND were essentially rebuilt about 10-13 years ago to CTC the >entire Reading division and probably had quite a good number of years left >in them. I do not know the location of the new dispatching center, but there >is a chance that it might be located in the old Wayne towre building, but I >highly doubt it. > >With NORTH PHILADELPHIA teetering on the edge of closure, Philly has gone >from a surviving bastion of tower oprations to a virtually wasteland in >under a year. With the demise of SEPTA's tower system only the LIRR remains >as the last tower controled railroad in the nation. > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:58:55 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Pullman Fares... Don, If you have access to any railroads' public timetables, they generally gave coach, first class, and Pullman fares between most of their major stations. Accomodations better than lower berths might be given as a minimum number of fares, which might even be a fraction of a whole fare. As an aside, I remember that by the late 1940's or early 1950's, some railroads required only a coach fare, not first class, to accompany Pullman fares, in a move to attract more Pullman riders. If you do not have any timetables available, I can pull out a couple tomorrow and get a scan to you. Steve Bartlett Don E. Anderson, Jr. wrote: List, I trust this is not too far "off topic". I have read about Pullman fares, and about how one paid for a first-class fare to the appropriate railroad, and the Pullman fare was in addition to the RR first-class fare. Can someone give me an example of what a typical ratio might be? In particular and for example, for the Broadway Limited from NYC to CHI, for passage for two on the Mountain View, occupying the Master Room, in the late days of the Broadway, what would the PRR fare and the Pullman fares be? If you have corresponding fares from another time period, please reply. TIA, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA Tower Tragedy Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 06:59:58 +0000 >And what is this spiral staircase? Broad is at the end of the long hallway >leading off the east end of the suburban station concourse. I've been to >the ends of the platforms and never seen a spiral staircase. > Whoops, the spiral staircases lead to A tower at Penn. At Suburban, at the ends of one of the main SEPTA platforms there is a narrow stairway leading up into the concourse level. The staircase destination matches exactly with BROAD's location on the interlocking diagram. The staircase is only on one platform and it makes sence that BROAD would have direct access down to the track level. With BROAD now closed I'll try poking around, maybe SEPTA personel will care less. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:32:08 -0400 Evan, Thanks for the reply, as this gets more convoluted the deeper I dig into it. Do the photo's you refer too show the "standard" lettering scheme or the Scotch-lite simplified scheme, and what year were they taken. Again, I have NEVER seen a round-roof car with the "standard" lettering scheme. The Pennsy would not have applied the simplified scheme in the 1948-51 time frame. This leads to the conclusion that the P70fbR rebuild program was with clearstory roofs only, and then in the early 60's, as these roofs deteriorated, they were rebuilt to the balloon style, and the cars repainted in the Scotch-lite scheme in anticipation of the PC merger. A photo of a P70fbR in the "standard paint scheme, or data from the Altoona Car Shops would help to solve this little mystery. Thanks, Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com [mailto:RDG2124@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 12:26 AM To: Burnley, Charles Subject: Re: [PRR] There are photos of this car with the clerestory roof after conversion from the P70 to the P70fbr. The majority appear to have been rebuilt with the arched roof. The clerestory roof was labor intensive in that it was prone to leaks. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:49:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA Tower Tragedy Mike notes that, ". . . only the LIRR remains as the last tower controled railroad in the nation." There may be danger here as well; note that parent MTA has announced a merger of the LIRR with Metro-North, which has a modern, centralized dispatchng system (NY NRHS arranged a tour of the impressive dispatching center at GCT a few years back); so could the days of the LIRR as a rolling PRR museum (at least as far as operating rules!) be numbered? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:01:39 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Coal mines on the PRR Hello, everyone, Hope this is not a duplicate of earlier posts. I recently ran across a website that offers lots of info and history on the coal mines of western PA, many of which were served by the PRR. The site's address is: www.patheoldminer.rootsweb.com/index1.html While it is not directly a railroad site, the information and links it has offers much to the railroad historian, including specifics on the particular mines and the pariculoar rr that served it, as well as the dates of service. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:11:42 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Great Lakes car ferries Hello, everyone, I recently visited the following site: www.mhpress.com and it indicated that this company, the Montevallo Historical Press, was planning to re-print George Hilton's classic GREAT LAKES CAR FERRIES. As you probably know, the PRR was involved in a number of these operations - Astabula and Muskegon come to mind as places where the PRR ran. Anyway, check it out. He's a bit behind his stated publication schedule - maybe he needs to hear from folks who would like to have the re-print. I've purchased earlier books from these folks and they do nice work. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70fbr Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:25:49 -0400 Up until the rebuilding program that started around 1963 or 1964, 100% of the FBr fleet was conventional clerestory roofs. The round roofs began when the cars were renumbered I believe into the 3800 series. If 1714 had a round roof, that would be a surprise to me, but by 1963 I was a "lines west guy" and didn't come into personal contact with the fbrs until I started seeing the rebuilds on the Buffalo trains in 1964. For what it's worth the higher numbered 1700s had an experimental Honeywell heating and air conditioning control system that was radically different than the conventional Vapor controls on all the other mechanically air conditioned coaches and parts were extremely hard to come by. I think they started at 1730 or so. At any rate they were very unreliable and probably lead to their being candidates for rebuilt. The 1732 was a special car on the Jersey Coast called the "Jersey Coast Commuter Club". It had a special closet at one end of the car for coffee mugs that belonged to the club members. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Burnley, Charles Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:20 PM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] P70fbr Thanks Fred, The NJ Intl book was one of my sources as well as Wayner's and the PRRT&HS book by Blairdone & Tilp and the new color PRR passenger books (I forget the authors). Vague mentions of both roof styles but no photo's to verify. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Fred Freitas [mailto:pennsy@sover.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 1997 2:21 AM To: Burnley, Charles Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fbr Source I'm using is NJIntl. PRR diagram book. Shows #1714 w/round roof and #1744 w/clerestory roof. Lists series as: 1600-1765, rebuilding was done with both roof styles. Photos are ones with no roadname w/scotchlite keystones at each end; number at each end as well. Source 2] ORER/Pass1954 notes P70fb [ no "r"]; the text reads that when a car was air conditioned it received the "r" suffix. Hope this gives you a place to start Fred in Vt. 'r ************************************************************************ **** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. ************************************************************************ **** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:30:27 GMT Subject: [PRR] Coal mines on the PRR From: PennsyRRfan George & List The url for the coal minwe site does NOT have a www prefix. It is: http://patheoldminer.rootsweb.com/index1.html Thank for the link, Paul R. Greenwald PRRT&HS 1802 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] P70R Question Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:13:29 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31938.4D0BFC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As long as we're on P70 modifications, I have a question on the first = type of ice-activated air conditioning applied to P70s, I think the = class is P70R. It appears that one lavatory window was blanked out for the air duct. = Was this one window only, or one window per side? Second, it appears that these cars kept their globe vents and exterior = electrical conduits for lighting on the roof. However, it appears that = there was an additional, slightly larger globe vent added in the middle = of the roof. Can anyone add any clarifications to this? John Bruce ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31938.4D0BFC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As long as we're on P70 modifications, I have a = question on=20 the first type of ice-activated air conditioning applied to P70s, I = think the=20 class is P70R.
 
It appears that one lavatory window was blanked out = for the=20 air duct.   Was this one window only, or one window per=20 side?
 
Second, it appears that these cars kept their globe = vents and=20 exterior electrical conduits for lighting on the roof.  However, it = appears=20 that there was an additional, slightly larger globe vent added in the = middle of=20 the roof.   Can anyone add any clarifications to = this?
 
John Bruce
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31938.4D0BFC80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Micro-Ace N scale Porter Mogul Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:02:32 -0400 Lists, I could not resist the Micro-Ace Porter Mogul in N scale, which is actually a model of the first steam locomtive in Japan, built by the H. K. Porter Co. of Pittsburgh. The PRR roster at NERails does not go back far enough to indicate whether or not PRR had any similar locomotives at any time. I know it would be an anachronism, but I'd like to letter this little gem for rhe PRR, which brings me to the second question, does anyone know of any decals or dry transfers for the "P.R.R." lettering used on locomotive tenders up to around 1900? Any idea where I could find a photo of a smiliar PRR engine? TIA Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Keith" Subject: [PRR] N5a Cabin road numbers Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:27:56 -0700 Does anyone know the range of road numbers the N5a's were in. The only number I have is 477267 shown in Pennsy Power III. Thanks in advance. Doug K. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Cabin road numbers Doug, N5a Numbers: 477110, 477267, 477292 and 477587 as of May 15 1957. Source, Keystone Vol. 6 #4 Dec. 1973. I just happened to have the mag in my hand when your email came in. Scary!!!.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:42:28 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Cabin road numbers Doug: Go to Jerry Britton's (the listmaster) Keystone Crossings site. http://kc.pennsyrr.com Click on "maintenance of way and cabeese". Click on "searchable cabin car roster". type in "N5A" for type. Info will "magically" appear. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:30:15 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Atlas Announces New Paint Schemes for H16-44 --=====================_208479006==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Pennsy is included. http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/h1516441.asp Dayna & Randy Williamson www.trainstuffllc.com --=====================_208479006==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Pennsy is included.

http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/h1516441.asp

Dayna & Randy Williamson
www.trainstuffllc.com --=====================_208479006==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:06:00 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Announces New Paint Schemes for H16-44 I received my message from Atlas today regarding the PRR H-16-44 and is it me or does that DGLE look too green and the Buff too yellow? I realize there was some comments prior but I reserved my opion until I actually saw their photos, but the lettering appears to be the same color as the safety yellow (Chrome Yellow/Dulux Gold) on the hand rails... Comments? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:07:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Announces New Paint Schemes for H16-44 From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3135697671_70314215 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/13/03 5:30 PM, "Randy Williamson" wrote: > Pennsy is included. >=20 > http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/h1516441.asp >=20 These were announced last week on the Merchandise Announce list, including some background info. These locos were regulars in the Pittsburgh Division in the 50=B9s and could be seen as west slope helpers, but more often on the many coal branches. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3135697671_70314215 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Atlas Announces New Paint Schemes for H16-44 On 5/13/03 5:30 PM, "Randy Williamson" <p= ennsy@vbe.com> wrote:

Pennsy is included.

http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/h1516441.asp


These were announced last week on the Merchandise Announce list, including = some background info.

These locos were regulars in the Pittsburgh Division in the 50’s and = could be seen as west slope helpers, but more often on the many coal branche= s.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3135697671_70314215-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:35:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Announces New Paint Schemes for H16-44 From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 07:06 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > I received my message from Atlas today regarding the PRR H-16-44 and > is it me or does that DGLE look too green and the Buff too yellow? > > I realize there was some comments prior but I reserved my opion until > I actually saw their photos, but the lettering appears to be the same > color as the safety yellow (Chrome Yellow/Dulux Gold) on the hand > rails... > Greg: Hard to say, I've purchased several Atlas products recently. One looked too green on the web page announcement; the other looked just right. Both physical products looked just fine upon arrival. I suspect either the digital photography they use or the web rendering distorts the color. I have the N scale H16-44's on order and they will be in long before the HO version is out, I'll be happy to report upon their arrival. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:30:24 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] production of models Hi All, I posted the following to the Yahoo Brass Collectors list earlier tonight. While it is not completely PRR specific, it mirrors some of my thoughts on this list as well, in reference to some recent threads on BLI. Give me a company like that in S Scale, and I will be a happy man! I am not shooting in any one direction, but merely asking that you take a step back before possibly blasting away on any model or project. I felt it to be one of my better pieces of writing in a long time. I have been reading the latest thread on what brass importers are good. I have a new outlook, attitude and appreciation on that subject since I have gone from a consumer to first time importer. I have been trying to produce an S Scale X29 for a while now. www.pennsysmodels.com The condensed version of the story ranges from a builder change, to ALL the research, to offering so many options in 100+ cars, to not accepting the slightest deviation in our "vision" of what the perfect model is. ALL of the above costs LOTS OF time and money. You really don't know the effort involved in producing a model until you do it yourself. That is how I got started. I was tired of waiting for others to produce the X29. In a stroke of luck that truly happens once in a lifetime, I met my business partner Dan, who shares the "get it done at all costs" determination that I do. It is a tedious and possibly dangerous financial risk for the average working person to undertake such projects. But, when it all comes together, you have piece of mind that you did it your way, and have left your mark on the modeling world. Kohs & Company, and Fine Art Models STILL take my breath away. I aspire to get to the level of quality of River Raisin Models, also in S Scale. SO, the next time you get a new model, and notice that "a rivet is out of place", STOP! It is TOO easy to be critical and trash the model, either privately, or worse, publicly. I ask you to do 1 of 2 things. Think of the effort involved to produce the model, and be GLAD you have it! It HAS to be better then none. OR start your OWN company, and build a better model YOURSELF! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Announces New Paint Schemes for H16-44 From: Jerry Britton On 5/13/03 7:35 PM, "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > On Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 07:06 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > >> I received my message from Atlas today regarding the PRR H-16-44 and >> is it me or does that DGLE look too green and the Buff too yellow? >> >> I realize there was some comments prior but I reserved my opion until >> I actually saw their photos, but the lettering appears to be the same >> color as the safety yellow (Chrome Yellow/Dulux Gold) on the hand >> rails... >> > Greg: Hard to say, I've purchased several Atlas products recently. One > looked too green on the web page announcement; the other looked just > right. Both physical products looked just fine upon arrival. I suspect > either the digital photography they use or the web rendering distorts > the color. > > I have the N scale H16-44's on order and they will be in long before > the HO version is out, I'll be happy to report upon their arrival. > I had forgotten...there was a thread about PRR DGLE color about a month ago on the Atlas N Scale Forum. Paul Graf, Atlas, indicated that they had changed their formula as of the N scale Trainmasters and that would be the new color from then on out. It was a very very dark color, as it should be. Imagine the lightness seen on the web is either the camera or the web rendering. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nolan Hill" Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:06:48 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C31A08.EB96B950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please unsubscribe this address ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C31A08.EB96B950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please unsubscribe this = address

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C31A08.EB96B950-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:36:46 GMT Subject: [PRR] Keystone Chronicles #3 From: PennsyRRfan I have finished almost the whole issue in only a few days. Great Articles. The Queen Mary Parlor Car was last seen by this SPF in Wayne, NJ, as part of a restaurant called Victoria Station, in the late '70s to late 1980 when we moved back to SE PA. It had apparently been restored to its original glory, as it was quite impressive - mahogany trim, crystal light fixtures, etc. So impressive that my oldest daughter, who was about 2 1/2 at the time remembers the interior. Somewhere I have pictures we took on the night that we were lucky enough to actually be seated in that section of the restaurant. Paul R. Gtreenwald PRRT&HS 1802 Phila Chapter 2009 ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:09:26 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Withers Vol 8 GP book Hi All, I bought the Withers Publishing Vol. 8 EMD Road Switchers book at the PRR convention. They asked that I cut the bottom half of the cover and send it to them as proof that I bought the book that had a page numbering problem. I just got the replacement today. Pretty good service if you asked me..... Thanks, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:09:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Withers Vol 8 GP book Hi All, I bought the Withers Publishing Vol. 8 EMD Road Switchers book at the PRR convention. They asked that I cut the bottom half of the cover and send it to them as proof that I bought the book that had a page numbering problem. I just got the replacement today. Pretty good service if you asked me..... Thanks, Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:12:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Withers Vol 8 GP book From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 08:09 PM, Bill Lane wrote: > I bought the Withers Publishing Vol. 8 EMD Road Switchers book at > the PRR > convention. They asked that I cut the bottom half of the cover and > send it > to them as proof that I bought the book that had a page numbering > problem. I > just got the replacement today. Pretty good service if you asked > me..... > That's excellent news if they got the reprint out already! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:53:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] PS 4-4-2 & 6-6-4 --part1_12d.299fbbad.2bf44d12_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What are appropriate diaphrams for these cars? I prefer the Amer. Lmt. operating diaphrams. Believe these cars may have been delivered with full width diaphrams which I am not interested in. I am looking for the later "narrow" ones. Mamy thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_12d.299fbbad.2bf44d12_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   What are appropriate diaphrams for these cars?&= nbsp; I prefer the Amer. Lmt. operating diaphrams.  Believe these cars=20= may have been delivered with full width diaphrams which I am not interested=20= in. I am looking for the later "narrow" ones.

Mamy thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_12d.299fbbad.2bf44d12_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:30:18 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] FS: MOW standard plan and signal standard plan CD's Hi all, Since it's the 15th... For the PRRT&HS meeting I made up some CD's of Maintenance of Way Standard plans and Signal Standard Plans and didn't sell them all so I'm making them available here... There are two different CD's, each is $15 + shipping. The first CD contains a scan of Pat McKinney's 1906 MOW signal standard plan book. While most of these plans are also available on my website, this book is scanned in greyscale so the quality is better than the scans online. Unlike the collection of plans online which are random collection of loose plans, this is a scan of the entire 1906 (revised in 1917) MOW standard book with scans of the covers, table of contents and index pages. The entire book is contained in one PDF file for easy navigation and contains approximately 110 plans... The second CD contains 170 signal standard plans from Pat's collection. Again, most of these are available on my website but the image quality is better on the CD's and you can browse them without waiting for then to download! This CD contains S-100 - S-500 series plans which cover almost every aspect of the hardware involved in the PRR's signal system. From drawings of Position light signal parts to the pipe used in mechanical interlockings. Each plan is in two formats, pdf at 600 dpi black & white (prints great!) and jpg at 300 dpi greyscale. E-mail me at robsch@optonline.net if you're interested! Thanks, Rob Schoenberg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:09:46 -0400 (EDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel S1 Lionel is coming out with a O scale three rail Pennsy S1 this summer. Lionel has pictures posted on their website. Now that is going to be one long model train engine. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:32:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PS 4-4-2 & 6-6-4 From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3135825158_77981938 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/14/03 9:53 PM, "RDG2124@aol.com" wrote: > What are appropriate diaphrams for these cars? I prefer the Amer. Lmt. > operating diaphrams. Believe these cars may have been delivered with ful= l > width diaphrams which I am not interested in. I am looking for the later > "narrow" ones. >=20 >=20 The American Limited diaphragms are perfect for the later, narrow ones. PRR didn=B9t have any 6-6-4=B9s. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3135825158_77981938 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] PS 4-4-2 & 6-6-4 On 5/14/03 9:53 PM, "RDG2124@aol.com" <RD= G2124@aol.com> wrote:

 What are approp= riate diaphrams for these cars?  I prefer the Amer. Lmt. operating diap= hrams.  Believe these cars may have been delivered with full width diap= hrams which I am not interested in. I am looking for the later "narrow&= quot; ones.


The American Limited diaphragms are perf= ect for the later, narrow ones. PRR didn’t have any 6-6-4’s.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3135825158_77981938-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: [PRR] Re: Withers Vol 8 GP book Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:56:20 -0400 I also bought one at the convention and sent an email the following Monday to Withers as suggested on these lists. To date, no response from Withers. Has anyone else gotten a replacement from the email request? Maybe I should send another request. Bud Kaiser Bill Lane wrote: > Hi All, > > I bought the Withers Publishing Vol. 8 EMD Road Switchers book at the PRR > convention. They asked that I cut the bottom half of the cover and send it > to them as proof that I bought the book that had a page numbering problem. I > just got the replacement today. Pretty good service if you asked me..... > > Thanks, > Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:54:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walther Decals --part1_84.10f1cc67.2bf4d9df_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, The decals supplied with the Walthers Budd and Pullman passenger cars seem to have unusually thick backing by today's standards. I have tried Solvaset, Micro Sol and Champ decal setting solutions and none of them have succeeded in melting away the backing. Has anyone had success in making the backing melt? The backing is especially apparent on the Pennsy Tuscan red cars. Am at the point of scrapping them and buying another brand of decal or dry transfers to add the names and numbers. Any help will be greatly appreciated. BTW, did anyone else succumb to picking up the 6-6-4 sleeper car even though the PRR never had them? What other roads had these that had joint agreements with the Pennsy? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_84.10f1cc67.2bf4d9df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR List,

   The decals supplied with the Walthers Budd and Pullman passenge= r cars seem to have unusually thick backing by today's standards.  I ha= ve tried Solvaset, Micro Sol and Champ decal setting solutions and none of t= hem have succeeded in melting away the backing.  Has anyone had success= in making the backing melt?  The backing is especially apparent on the= Pennsy Tuscan red cars.

   Am at the point of scrapping them and buying another brand of d= ecal or dry transfers to add the names and numbers.

   Any help will be greatly appreciated.

   BTW,  did anyone else succumb to picking up the 6-6-4 slee= per car even though the PRR never had them?   <G>  What= other roads had these that had joint agreements with the Pennsy?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_84.10f1cc67.2bf4d9df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:54:40 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: P70R Air Conditioning As long as we're on P70 modifications. I have noticed from photos that there appears to be (at least) two different side vent configurations on P70R's. One has a vent imbedded in the side of the clerestory at the end, while the other has a vent in the car side next to the vestibule. Are these separate classes or are they both P70R's? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ThreeButchers@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/14/03 1:12:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > << As long as we're on P70 modifications, I have a question on the first = > type of ice-activated air conditioning applied to P70s, I think the = > class is P70R. > > It appears that one lavatory window was blanked out for the air duct. = > Was this one window only, or one window per side? > > Second, it appears that these cars kept their globe vents and exterior = > electrical conduits for lighting on the roof. However, it appears that = > there was an additional, slightly larger globe vent added in the middle = > of the roof. Can anyone add any clarifications to this? > > John Bruce >> > > John; > > PRR Form 213B "Air-conditioning Systems for Passenger Trains" issued 1945 > names / shows this roof vent on the P70R to be "Penn Ventilator" w/ 12" > 2-speed Robbins & Myers 900 C.F.M. Fan. > > P70R cars so-equipped in May 1934 included 3413, 3519, 3596-3599, 3611, 3613, > 3706, 3708, 3709, 3713-3719, 3722, 3730, 3734, 3736, 3744-3755, 3757-3760. > > Regards; > Brian Butcher > yahoogroups.com/group/PRR-n_scale > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel S1 There are going to be a number of O scale S1's on the market. 3rd Rail (Sunset) released one not too long ago, MTH has one due anytime now, and Lionel's is due out this summer. This may mean that one can be had for a good price. When both Lionel and MTH came out with their T1's, they could be found for about $750 which is far below their list of around $1400. Also, I think both the Lionel and MTH version will have the full skirts, and I think Sunset did release theirs in both the fullskirt and unskirted version. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:04:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: P70R Air Conditioning Andy; The vent in question was actually the "Fresh Air Intake" and on 1934 ice-activated P70R this vent was in the top ends of the clerestory. Some later P70R had an air handler "on-board" in between the lavatory and vestibule....in these cases the "fresh air" intake was located next to the vestibule. Getting back to Johns question...sometimes the RH end window was elimated on P70R because of the floorplan....sometimes the window was elimated bacause of the "on-board" air handler. No difference in class...both were designated P70R Regards; Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: threebutchers@cs.com Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:04:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: P70R Air Conditioning Andy; The vent in question was actually the "Fresh Air Intake" and on 1934 ice-activated P70R this vent was in the top ends of the clerestory. Some later P70R had an air handler "on-board" in between the lavatory and vestibule....in these cases the "fresh air" intake was located next to the vestibule. Getting back to Johns question...sometimes the RH end window was elimated on P70R because of the floorplan....sometimes the window was elimated bacause of the "on-board" air handler. No difference in class...both were designated P70R Regards; Brian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:13:40 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70R Air Conditioning Jerry, I'd have to go back to the various photo sources (mostly PRR Passenger Cars Vol 1 Coaches) to get numbers, but ThreeButchers has already responded to say they were all P70R's. My list of projects is very long. It will probably be a looooong time before I get around to upgrading my P70Rs to have either of these vents. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 5/15/03 8:54 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > > > As long as we're on P70 modifications. I have noticed from photos that there > > appears to be (at least) two different side vent configurations on P70R's. > > One > > has a vent imbedded in the side of the clerestory at the end, while the other > > has > > a vent in the car side next to the vestibule. Are these separate classes or > > are > > they both P70R's? > > > Andy, what are the road numbers? From them I may be able to determine > subclasses. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF M ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:19:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70R Air Conditioning From: Jerry Britton On 5/15/03 9:13 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I'd have to go back to the various photo sources (mostly PRR Passenger Cars > Vol 1 > Coaches) to get numbers, but ThreeButchers has already responded to say they > were > all P70R's. I saw. I have a HUGE database project underway. The class/car number info is already in. I thought maybe by entering car numbers a different subclass might show up. Hope to have this project completed in July. It goes with me on vacation...nothing like indexing passenger car information while overlooking the beach! ;-) > > My list of projects is very long. It will probably be a looooong time before > I get > around to upgrading my P70Rs to have either of these vents. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel S1 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:35:18 +0000 Interesting..... I wonder if it will be able to negotiate the old O-27, 27-inch diameter track? :P Seriously, great news for O-scalers. Ted >From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Lionel S1 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:09:46 -0400 (EDT) > >Lionel is coming out with a O scale three rail Pennsy S1 this summer. >Lionel has pictures posted on their website. Now that is going to be one >long model train engine. >Eric > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:35:43 -0400 From: caseyj Subject: [PRR] Wanted: 6-car Bachmann PRR passenger car set I'm looking for one of the Bachmann PRR passenger car sets that came out a couple of years ago. If anyone has one for sale, Please reply to caseyj@igateway.com Thanks, Nick Kulp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:43:11 +0000 Perhaps this has been discussed earlier, but if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 modeled after the late 1940's production? I did buy one and I noticed that the decals were lettered for the "Imperial-xxxx" series for the PRR. Was the Imperial series named for 4-4-2's in both the late 1930's and late 1940's? I think that the smaller upper berth windows were only on the late 1930's PRR 4-4-2's. Still it is a great model and hopefully a sign of things to come. Imagine Walthers producing a 12-car set of the 1948 Broadway Limited! I would buy a set. Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:49:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification From: Jerry Britton On 5/15/03 9:43 AM, Ted Andrews (ted_andrews@msn.com) wrote: > Perhaps this has been discussed earlier, but if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 > modeled after the late 1940's production? I did buy one and I noticed that > the decals were lettered for the "Imperial-xxxx" series for the PRR. Was the > Imperial series named for 4-4-2's in both the late 1930's and late 1940's? > > I think that the smaller upper berth windows were only on the late 1930's > PRR 4-4-2's. > > Still it is a great model and hopefully a sign of things to come. Imagine > Walthers producing a 12-car set of the 1948 Broadway Limited! I would buy a > set. > Ted: Yes, both the pre-war and post-war 4-4-2's were "IMPERIAL ___" cars. Only the pre-war cars had the smaller upper berth windows. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:49:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel S1 Am I missing something? Didn't MTH or someone else have this out years ago? Cover of Classic Trains, IIRC? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:54:56 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel S1 >Interesting..... > >I wonder if it will be able to negotiate the old O-27, 27-inch diameter >track? :P > >Seriously, great news for O-scalers. Incredibly, given the size of the loco and Lionel's track record, this will apparently be a scale LENGTH loco!!! Way to go! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel S1 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:10:51 -0700 The reality is that Lionel did one, some years ago. Fully scale (with the doubled main rods between drivers 2 and 3), made of brass (!) and it came with a nice (also brass) scale N8 cabin car (which wasn't built until after the S2 was taken out of service). Samhongsa built it...but don't know how many were done. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 15 May 2003 09:49:33 EDT Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Am I missing something? Didn't MTH or someone else have > this out years ago? > Cover of Classic Trains, IIRC? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:12:31 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification Ted, The Walthers' cars are the 1938 series. Both 38 and 48 series cars had IMPERIAL names. The names provided on the decal sheet are correct for the 38 cars. Now will they release them in FOM :-))) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================= Ted Andrews wrote: > Perhaps this has been discussed earlier, but if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 > modeled after the late 1940's production? I did buy one and I noticed that > the decals were lettered for the "Imperial-xxxx" series for the PRR. Was the > Imperial series named for 4-4-2's in both the late 1930's and late 1940's? > > I think that the smaller upper berth windows were only on the late 1930's > PRR 4-4-2's. > > Still it is a great model and hopefully a sign of things to come. Imagine > Walthers producing a 12-car set of the 1948 Broadway Limited! I would buy a > set. > > Ted Andrews > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel S1 Bob, Bruce, Ted, List,         Bob, That is the problem with manufacturing these days. When 1 company brings a loco or car out, it seems to be just a matter of short time before it is released again by someone else. Instead of doing something fresh and new, we have lots of copy cats. Why? who knows. When BLI produces the PRR J1, can we see others following? Bruce, Ted,   I seen the Lionel fold out flyer for this S1 the other day. Not sure but I think the fold out was full length. Like they say, it is "The Big Engine". I didn't read the specs but the cost is $1500.00. I would assume 072 curves at the minimum unless Lionel articulates the drive.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:19:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification In a message dated 5/15/03 8:48:10 AM Central Daylight Time, ted_andrews@msn.com writes: << Perhaps this has been discussed earlier, but if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 modeled after the late 1940's production? I did buy one and I noticed that the decals were lettered for the "Imperial-xxxx" series for the PRR. Was the Imperial series named for 4-4-2's in both the late 1930's and late 1940's? >> Discussed extensively on the passenger car list and on this list. The car is one of the 12 prewar Pullman-Standard cars. The postwar Imperial 4-4-2s were built by ACF. My conclusion about the Walthers car is that there might have been a car in that particular configuration (postwar paint scheme, upper berth windows, no skirting, 41HR trucks) but noone including myself can find it. I lettered mine Imperial Crest since that car ran occasionally on the Broadway and may have overlapped the 1948 cars on that train (that is, run mixed with some of the new cars). In addition, that car ran on the South Wind in the 50's. It also was one of the 5 which had the 41HR trucks rather than the 7 which had triple-bolster 43R. HOWEVER, if it ran on the Broadway overlapping delivery of the 1948 cars, it may have still had its FOM paint scheme. And it had its full skirting. The cars apparently had at least abbreviated skirting through 1964. I believe Tom Madden on PCL made the conclusion that a few most likely had the skirting fully removed when the upper berth windows were plated over (I don't know about Imperial Crest---it was scrapped in 1964, as far as I can tell, and other cars with plated over windows still had the abbreviated skirting) . Thus, my conclusion the Walthers configuration never existed, until proven otherwise. Similarly, three of the car names in the kit are in gold lettering . Most of their lives they were in two-tone gray and would have had the appropriate lettering. Walthers made the car for general market. They could have made it extremely flexible marketwise if they had produced it in full skirting, with perhaps scoring on the back for partial or complete removal. They produced the ATSF Indian-name fluted side version in the correct full skirting, though I think all or most that ran in PRR coast-to-coast pool had 43R trucks. The latter change is easy. Even filling in the upper berth windows on the smoothside is doable for 60's use. However, adding skirts is another story. If I could figure out how to get the Walthers car back together, after checking dimensions, I might consider doing ECW sides and seeing if they would fit an undec kit. Given that my era PRR tuscan cars, three Imperial cars in two-tone gray, plus the Rock Island Golden state cars in coast-to-coast service were fully skirted until late, I am a little disappointed in Walthers choice. But I run it in my later-era South Wind with ACF cars (now to get an NP Budd dome and add the DHP P85s) behind ACL purple E6s ! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:32:26 +0000 Thanks to all who have responded. I have one other question. What do you think of Walthers choice for Tuscan Red on the 4-4-2? Is it a good shade or is it off? Is it off by allot? I noticed when comparing it to my Rivarossi smooth side cars, that there was little difference in shade. Ted >From: "Ted Andrews" >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:43:11 +0000 > >Perhaps this has been discussed earlier, but if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 >modeled after the late 1940's production? I did buy one and I noticed that >the decals were lettered for the "Imperial-xxxx" series for the PRR. Was >the Imperial series named for 4-4-2's in both the late 1930's and late >1940's? > >I think that the smaller upper berth windows were only on the late 1930's >PRR 4-4-2's. > >Still it is a great model and hopefully a sign of things to come. Imagine >Walthers producing a 12-car set of the 1948 Broadway Limited! I would buy a >set. > >Ted Andrews > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:45:10 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] FM brake detail Good morning, I'm working on an HO scale PRR FM flat car model to use as a Carrier Car for a crawler crane. While both F&C and Sunshine make FM kits, I'm using the Sunshine kit for this project. I'd like to build this car with "split K" (KD) brakes as it was unlikely to have been converted to AB brakes by 1944. Unfortunately, the description and photograph of the underbody in the directions do not provide a great deal of insight (in fact, I think the brake detail is for a B&O car). The F&C directions do have a nice drawing, that VERY strongly resembles that for the GR gondola, published in Mainline Modeler. This isn't a big surprise since the GR and FM were contemporaries and the GR is really an FM with sides, but is it accurate for the FM? Sooooo, my question is, does anyone have underbody drawings for the FM? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:06:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman and L&N through cars --0-889033539-1053022000=:99453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andy and list members I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Southern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birmingham Special. I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc. According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was taken from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE: "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & Nashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via Nashville on the following L&N trains: #!164 The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW) #8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car #98 The Pan American New Orleans-Pittsburgh 10 Sections/Lounge #99 The PanAmerican NY-Louisville (10-6) NY-Nashville (10-6) NY-Memphis (10-6) switched at Louisville Pittsburgh-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (8-5) Washington-New Orleans (10 Sections/Lounge)" Anyone have any accurate information on what cars were used in these various services? I know that the L&N had three Plan 4140 10-6 sleepers painted in PRR colors for this service, GREEN RIVER, BARREN RIVER, and KENTUCKY RIVER. There is a photo of one of these accesible through the Passenger Car Photo Index. What about those 10-1-2's? Could these be the four cars owned by L&N built to plan 4074 which the Bachmann car more or less represents, or are they some other 10-1-2's, possibly PRR cars? A quick look at a 1944 PRR public timetable in my possession also shows through service on these routes, but I would assume that all cars supplied at that time would be Pullman owned and lettered. Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated, especially for the period 1947-1950. I posted a similar query to the L&N discussion group and was given a reference to a past issue of "Dixie Line", the equivalent of "The Keystone", but I have no access to this publication. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-889033539-1053022000=:99453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Andy and list members
 
I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Southern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birmingham Special.
 
I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc.  According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was taken from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE:
 
  "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & Nashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via Nashville on the following L&N trains:
#!164   The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW)
#8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car
#98   The Pan American
          New Orleans-Pittsburgh  10 Sections/Lounge
#99   The PanAmerican
          NY-Louisville (10-6)
          NY-Nashville (10-6)
          NY-Memphis (10-6)  switched at Louisville
          Pittsburgh-New Orleans (10-1-2)
          NY-New Orleans (10-1-2)
          NY-New Orleans (8-5)
          Washington-New Orleans (10 Sections/Lounge)"
 
Anyone have any accurate information on what cars were used in these various services?  I know that the L&N had three Plan 4140 10-6 sleepers painted in PRR colors for this service, GREEN RIVER, BARREN RIVER, and KENTUCKY RIVER.  There is a photo of one of these accesible through the Passenger Car Photo Index.
 
What about those 10-1-2's?  Could these be the four cars owned by L&N built to plan 4074 which the Bachmann car more or less represents, or are they some other 10-1-2's, possibly PRR cars?
 
A quick look at a 1944 PRR public timetable in my possession also shows through service on these routes, but I would assume that all cars supplied at that time would be Pullman owned and lettered.
 
Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated, especially for the period 1947-1950.  I posted a similar query to the L&N discussion group and was given a reference to a past issue of "Dixie Line", the equivalent of "The Keystone", but I have no access to this publication.
 
Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-889033539-1053022000=:99453-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert A. Kessler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PS 4-4-2 & 6-6-4 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:14:05 -0700 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] PS 4-4-2 & 6-6-4 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:32:38 -0400 > What are appropriate diaphrams for these cars? I prefer the Amer. Lmt. > operating diaphrams. Believe these cars may have been delivered with ful= l > width diaphrams which I am not interested in. I am looking for the later > "narrow" ones. The American Limited diaphragms are perfect for the later, narrow ones. PRR Didn't have any 6-6-4 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS The American Limited "Budd style" diaphragms have what appears to be the correct buffer face shape.for PRR lightweight Pullmans Bob Kessler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:08:16 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70R Air Conditioning Jerry- I have a breakdown list of P70 cars. Will send it to to you, if interested. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Jerry Britton wrote: > > I saw. I have a HUGE database project underway. The class/car number info is > already in. I thought maybe by entering car numbers a different subclass > might show up. > > Hope to have this project completed in July. It goes with me on > vacation...nothing like indexing passenger car information while overlooking > the beach! ;-) > > > > My list of projects is very long. It will probably be a looooong time before > > I get > > around to upgrading my P70Rs to have either of these vents. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:32:54 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] HO Car Kits For Sale HO Car kits For Sale: All are out of stock at Walthers. All prices are plus shipping. C&BT- PRR X43c 1944 AAR 40' box-SK. Original version w/ seperate ladders & grabs.6 different numbers.NIB. $10 ea. Bowser- PRR H21a Quad hoppers-CK. 10 different numbers. NIB. $14 ea. Bowser- PRR H22a Quad hoppers-CK. 10 different numbers. NIB. $12 ea. Stewart- PRR H37b 70 ton 13 panel triple hoppers.Set of 6 different numbers. NIB $72. 3rd Rail Graphics/Athearn- PRR H31 ribbed side twin bay hoppers.SK. 3 different numbers.NIB. $9 ea. 3rd Rail Graphics/Athearn- PRR H31b comp. side twin bay hoppers.CK. Buy War Bonds. 3 different numbers.NIB. $9 ea. Cooper & Oshtemo/Athearn- PRR GLa twin bay hoppers.Coal Goes To War.2 different numbers.NIB. $11 ea. Walthers- 40' reefers. Beer cars, 6 different brands. NIB. $11 ea. Please reply off-line, if interested. Thank you. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:45:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones From: Jerry Britton As many of you know, the PRRT&HS eStore was run via my server. There were several issues that led to its suspension -- notably problems with the PayPal gateway, and also with the "hierarchy" of different people managing different products. Reopening of the store, here or under contract, is still off in the future. One thing that never panned out, that was an initial goal of mine, was for the Society to fill orders for Keystone magazines online. The Society's administrator of the eStore never took the time to list back issues during the 18 months or so the site was running. Merchandise Service has been authorized as a dealer of Society products. Offering Keystones online would financially benefit the Society. It will also require a lot of work setting it up. I am willing to do that. So I ask... How many of you would be likely to purchase back issues of the Keystone if Merchandise Service kept them in stock so there would be a turnaround to your door of about a week? Please respond off-list to sales@dsop.com . Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:17:16 -0500 How many old Keystones are left after the Society auction? -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 3:46 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones As many of you know, the PRRT&HS eStore was run via my server. There were several issues that led to its suspension -- notably problems with the PayPal gateway, and also with the "hierarchy" of different people managing different products. Reopening of the store, here or under contract, is still off in the future. One thing that never panned out, that was an initial goal of mine, was for the Society to fill orders for Keystone magazines online. The Society's administrator of the eStore never took the time to list back issues during the 18 months or so the site was running. Merchandise Service has been authorized as a dealer of Society products. Offering Keystones online would financially benefit the Society. It will also require a lot of work setting it up. I am willing to do that. So I ask... How many of you would be likely to purchase back issues of the Keystone if Merchandise Service kept them in stock so there would be a turnaround to your door of about a week? Please respond off-list to sales@dsop.com . Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lionel S1 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:21:18 -0400 Well, trainworld is already discounting it: LIONEL O GAUGE LIMITED EDITIONS #38024 PENNSY S1 DUPLEX $1295.00 THE LARGEST O GUAGE STEAM ENGINE EVER BUILT 36 1/4" IN LENGTH Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:32:40 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Re: Marvin's question - "How many old Keystones are left after the Society auction?" There were still complete sets remaining after the previous auction. There will be an item on a new upcoming single issue auction of "The Keystone," in tomorrow's "e-NEWS." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lionel S1 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:37:26 -0400 My guess is that we will see much lower than that in about two months or in the fall when the big York show occurs. Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > [Original Message] > From: Chany, Christopher > To: > Date: 5/15/03 5:21:18 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Lionel S1 > > Well, trainworld is already discounting it: > > > LIONEL O GAUGE LIMITED EDITIONS > #38024 PENNSY S1 DUPLEX $1295.00 > THE LARGEST O GUAGE STEAM ENGINE EVER BUILT > 36 1/4" IN LENGTH > > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:40:55 +0100 I would be interetsted Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Jerry Britton'" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 10:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones > How many old Keystones are left after the Society auction? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 3:46 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones > > > As many of you know, the PRRT&HS eStore was run via my server. There were > several issues that led to its suspension -- notably problems with the > PayPal gateway, and also with the "hierarchy" of different people managing > different products. > > Reopening of the store, here or under contract, is still off in the future. > > One thing that never panned out, that was an initial goal of mine, was for > the Society to fill orders for Keystone magazines online. The Society's > administrator of the eStore never took the time to list back issues during > the 18 months or so the site was running. > > Merchandise Service has been authorized as a dealer of Society products. > Offering Keystones online would financially benefit the Society. It will > also require a lot of work setting it up. I am willing to do that. So I > ask... > > How many of you would be likely to purchase back issues of the Keystone if > Merchandise Service kept them in stock so there would be a turnaround to > your door of about a week? > > Please respond off-list to sales@dsop.com . Thank you. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:44:53 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel S1 Gary Mittner wrote: > > Bob, Bruce, Ted, List, > >         Bob, That is the problem with manufacturing > these days. When 1 company brings a loco or car out, it seems to be just > a matter of short time before it is released again by someone else. > Instead of doing something fresh and new, we have lots of copy cats. > Why? who knows. When BLI produces the PRR J1, can we see others > following? > > Bruce, Ted,   I seen the Lionel fold out flyer for this S1 the other > day. Not sure but I think the fold out was full length. Like they say, > it is "The Big Engine". I didn't read the specs but the cost is > $1500.00. I would assume 072 curves at the minimum unless Lionel > articulates the drive.....Gary The brochure is a full sized fold-out. The engine is about 37 1/2 inches long and is supposed to handle O-72. It's still too big for my O Gauge layout but boy, I wish I had the bucks for it. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:50:28 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] FS: MOW standard plan and signal standard plan CD's Rob, I would be interested in both CD's. Dave Wartell 7605 Woodside Ave. Harrisburg, PA 17112-4221 djwartel@comcast.net At 2:30 AM -0400 5/15/03, Rob Schoenberg wrote: >Hi all, > >Since it's the 15th... >For the PRRT&HS meeting I made up some CD's of Maintenance of Way Standard >plans >and Signal Standard Plans and didn't sell them all so I'm making them >available >here... > >There are two different CD's, each is $15 + shipping. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:24:57 -0400 Marvin and All, The Keystones that Jerry is talking about are not the ones that were in the recent auction or that will be in the next part of the auction. The Keystones sold at retail are those in open stock. There are currently 44 different issues in open stock, including every issue from 1994 on. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Jerry Britton'" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones > How many old Keystones are left after the Society auction? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 3:46 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones > > > As many of you know, the PRRT&HS eStore was run via my server. There were > several issues that led to its suspension -- notably problems with the > PayPal gateway, and also with the "hierarchy" of different people managing > different products. > > Reopening of the store, here or under contract, is still off in the future. > > One thing that never panned out, that was an initial goal of mine, was for > the Society to fill orders for Keystone magazines online. The Society's > administrator of the eStore never took the time to list back issues during > the 18 months or so the site was running. > > Merchandise Service has been authorized as a dealer of Society products. > Offering Keystones online would financially benefit the Society. It will > also require a lot of work setting it up. I am willing to do that. So I > ask... > > How many of you would be likely to purchase back issues of the Keystone if > Merchandise Service kept them in stock so there would be a turnaround to > your door of about a week? > > Please respond off-list to sales@dsop.com . Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Wanted: 6-car Bachmann PRR passenger car set Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:18:53 -0400 Nick: Still getting kicked back by your ISP. I have a set, I'll be glad to bring it with me for the next OS, However, it's not for sale yet - Don't know if it will fit into the scheme of things on my future empire. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Subject: [PRR] Wanted: 6-car Bachmann PRR passenger car set I'm looking for one of the Bachmann PRR passenger car sets that came out a couple of years ago. If anyone has one for sale, Please reply to caseyj@igateway.com Thanks, Nick Kulp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:22:16 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: FW: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Jerry, Thanx for your comments - here are some answers. JB - As many of you know, the PRRT&HS eStore was run via my server [Merchandise.pennsyrr.com]. There were several issues that led to its suspension -- notably problems with the PayPal gateway, and also with the "hierarchy" of different people managing different products. AB - It was mostly the PayPal situation - there were no problems w/ the people managing products and filling orders. We just changed order fillers from the Stanleys to Frantz (books) and Kuhn (magazines) several months ago and things have worked well. The Stanleys needed a much deserved rest after many years of loyal and dedicated service. Both of these items have been openly discussed in the "e-NEWS." ---------------- JB- Reopening of the store, here or under contract, is still off in the future. AB - The Society's store will probably be open within 30 days using a contract service that responded to the Society's RFP. A deal is currently under negotiation and is close to closing. ---------------- JB - One thing that never panned out, that was an initial goal of mine, was for the Society to fill orders for Keystone magazines online. The Society's administrator of the eStore never took the time to list back issues during the 18 months or so the site was running. AB - It was a goal of mine also and I agree that "The Keystones" should have been up on the e-store. However, when we ran into problems with PayPal early on we made a decision to see how things would go before spending a lot of effort adding products. "The Keystones" will be up on the new e-store site. However, most issues have also been available all along on the website. ------------------- Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:29:59 -0400 I like to purchase back issues one or two at a time. This would be a convenient way to select issues when I feel moved to do so. Good idea, and hope it is worth your time. Bob McKay N Scale Susquehanna Div. PRR 1965 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:45 PM Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones > As many of you know, the PRRT&HS eStore was run via my server. There were > several issues that led to its suspension -- notably problems with the > PayPal gateway, and also with the "hierarchy" of different people managing > different products. > > Reopening of the store, here or under contract, is still off in the future. > > One thing that never panned out, that was an initial goal of mine, was for > the Society to fill orders for Keystone magazines online. The Society's > administrator of the eStore never took the time to list back issues during > the 18 months or so the site was running. > > Merchandise Service has been authorized as a dealer of Society products. > Offering Keystones online would financially benefit the Society. It will > also require a lot of work setting it up. I am willing to do that. So I > ask... > > How many of you would be likely to purchase back issues of the Keystone if > Merchandise Service kept them in stock so there would be a turnaround to > your door of about a week? > > Please respond off-list to sales@dsop.com . Thank you. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:20:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walters 4-4-2 Clarification --part1_d0.397c8c73.2bf5dd36_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, Seeing how I select the color I would have to say YES! Rivarossi will likely be changing their color to match the Walthers in the near future. The Brown and Yellow of the old Rivarossi cars is going to be a collectors item. Like they say you tell the lie long enough and it becomes the truth???? Excuse me? I don't think so! > Thanks to all who have responded. I have one other question. What do you > think of Walthers choice for Tuscan Red on the 4-4-2? Is it a good shade or > is it off? Is it off by allot? I noticed when comparing it to my Rivarossi > smooth side cars, that there was little difference in shade. > > Ted > Greg Martin --part1_d0.397c8c73.2bf5dd36_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted,

Seeing how I select the color I would have to say YES!  Rivarossi will=20= likely be changing their color to match the Walthers in the near future. The= Brown and Yellow of the old Rivarossi cars is going to be a collectors item= . Like they say you tell the lie long enough and it becomes the truth???? Ex= cuse me? I don't think so!

Thanks to all who have responde= d. I have one other question. What do you think of Walthers choice for Tusca= n Red on the 4-4-2? Is it a good shade or is it off? Is it off by allot? I n= oticed when comparing it to my Rivarossi smooth side cars, that there was li= ttle difference in shade.

Ted


Greg Martin --part1_d0.397c8c73.2bf5dd36_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:10:48 -0400 List, Bob Johnson is right about the selling of the Keystone's. If you would like an article from a pre-1994 issue you can ask other members to make copies. I'm lucky because my dad had a complete set. For that reason we have made copies numerous times for other emebers or people that are interested in a certain aspect of the PRR that aren't a member of the society. This being said, if there is an article you would like copied get in touch with me and i'll forward the request to my dad. Even so, if i remember rightly you will be charged for the copies, but the money goes to the society. Al would know more on this topic. Speaking of which i think he has a complete set too. One more thing, I'm slowly compiling an updated index of the keystones for the files of my dad and I. Once i'm finished, i can mail these if you like or maybe see about posting it on Jerry's site. Yours in railroading, John Frantz #7237 Crew for the 'Operators' Yardmaster for the York Connecting Railroad ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:39:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones From: Jerry Britton On 5/16/03 7:10 AM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > One more thing, I'm slowly compiling an updated index of > the keystones for the files of my dad and I. Once i'm > finished, i can mail these if you like or maybe see about > posting it on Jerry's site. > There already IS a complete index of the Keystone on the Keystone Crossings site. The index is also nearly complete on Pennsy Journal and Rails Northeast. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:47:59 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Re: If you would like an article from a pre-1994 issue Pre-1994 single issues will be available during "The Keystone" single issue auction - to be held at the end of this year. See today's "e-NEWS" for additional details. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:15:42 -0400 From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? Hello All, My question is simple. Did any of the PRR's 598 2-10-0 Decapods survive? Thanks, George Modeling the PRR in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH area from 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:34:13 -0400 #4483 is at Hamburg, NY. Boiler jacket removed & out in the elements: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/class_i.htm Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Pandelios" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? > Hello All, > > My question is simple. Did any of the PRR's 598 2-10-0 Decapods survive? > > Thanks, > > George > > Modeling the PRR in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH area from 1948-1957 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:47:19 -0400 George, The I1 that was part of the PRR's original museum collection resides at a museum in New York. I can't recall the road number offhand. The museum also has a website which i'm at a loss to know right now. Last i've seen it has been repainted and they are talking about restoring it to run. The MSTS I1 team is using this as the model base. This will give you a good start. I hope others can help my floundering young mind. Good to be of some help to you. -John Frantz >Hello All, >My question is simple. Did any of the PRR's 598 2-10-0 >Decapods survive? >Thanks, >George >Modeling the PRR in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH >area from 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE: Feedback Sought on Society Keystones Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:12:52 -0400 Jerry, Al, and List, From here on out until i become educated I will formally be assuming the roll of a lurker. All previously made statements trhat were made correct or not i wish to be formally withdrawn from any and all memory banks. I am just the epitome of a kid that thought they could offer something. I have nothing to offer, since i know nothing. I do not wish to be withdrawn so as I can gain the education needed to maybe sometime tell others what i can recolect. For those that wishto say something to me. Don't bother what i tell you will probably be wrong anyway. Thank you for your understanding in matters of my unknowingness. -JSF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:59:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Airslide Covered Hopper --part1_184.1b123960.2bf70d8b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have finished modifying two of these single bay models for the Pennsy cars. Anyone have a good suggestion on what shade of gray to paint these. I spary paint and am familiar with Floquil, Scale Coat, Modelflex and Poly Scale paints. Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_184.1b123960.2bf70d8b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   I have finished modifying two of these single b= ay models for the Pennsy cars.  Anyone have a good suggestion on what s= hade of gray to paint these.  I spary paint and am familiar with Floqui= l, Scale Coat, Modelflex and Poly Scale paints.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_184.1b123960.2bf70d8b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 05:38:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thoughts on "operating", NMRA Chief Dispatcher's certificate --part1_3c.2fb2ad67.2bf75d28_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/12/03 8:36:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Flores > Subject: Re: Prototype Operations > > As a member of The Janus Junction RR Club, one of > our members, Carl Albrech has written train orders > that involve as many members as are available for a > given operating session. There are typically yard > masters that make up trains with specific cars, or > passenger trains that are made up, and these trains > are turned over to operators who have specific orders > to drop off cars at industries, or pick them up at > specific industries. The passenger trains are still > given precedence, and the doodlebug makes runs as > well. This is run in sequence, and we have been > trying to generate timetables to correspond to the > fast clock based on these operations. Cars will sit > between operating sessions for several weeks, and > hopefully not be in the way, as they are in sidings. > It is up to the operator to get the cars in or out, > and he can make up the train in a specific order if he > can, or has time. There is a combination of cars from > the yards, and pickups that are transfered. It can be > an interesting operating session. > Carl is working on one of his certificates for > the NMRA. As a general rule, most of the freight > trains are not of any great length, more like local > service. Tuesdays at the Janus Center. Get back with > me if you would like more information. > Operations can be very interesting. I am not > sure how closely this matches prototype operations, > but there could be some similarities. There > definitely is more then on way to do things. The only > computers we use are for the word processor to do a > neat job of writing up these sessions, and perhaps a > spreadsheet to make up the timetables. > Bob Flores, in Columbus, Ohio > Hello again, Bob: More reasons to visit the Janus Center! That's on the grounds of the Ohio State Fairgrounds, right? Glad you're having fun with all this. It sounds like Carl Albrech is working on his Chief Dispatcher's certificate in the NMRA's Achievement Program. As a holder of the "CD", I'd be happy to assist him (and others) in working toward the "CD" any way I can -- that is both my wish AND a requirement of receiving the certificate. Hopefully, Carl is clear on the difference between "train orders" and switching "work orders". Train Orders (usually the highly stylized Form 19 and Form 31 Orders) are for the purpose of altering train schedules as established in the employee timetable. Of course, for extras, these Train Orders also create a schedule that does not exist in/on the employee timetable. A train order is fairly easy to identify; it's written/typed on the railroad's Form 19 (or 31 for life-threatening changes), is numbered, and is issued by the dispatcher over the superintendent's signature or initials. Your "sequence" of train movements can easily be written out as these Train Orders -- that's what I did on the last Panhandle layout. Various work orders, on the other hand, figure in prototype or model car movement. Whether switchlists, orders to work specific sidings and industries, or some other kind of paper, they distinctly different from Train Orders and are far less formal. They may range from a car list form provided by the railroad, to a message form, or even a scribbled note. In any case, they describe work to be done, but cannot establish the rights of a train to hold a particular track at a particular time. BTW, there's a nice chicken-or-the-egg argument here. I like to point out to my operators that, on a layout, the car movement "system" comes first. However, as soon as the car fleet starts moving around, a schedule (or at least a fixed sequence of train movements) becomes desirable. I know there are folks who believe they should design their train movements first, and then establish car movement to fit. But in my experience (40 years), if you start moving the cars, the train schedules design themselves -- and keep on changing as long as you operate. As you might guess, I'm not exactly impressed by the "operation in a box" philosophy. Why try to go up two learning curves at the same time when one (car movement) is enough to start with? I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun... Rick Tipton NMRA Life Member Chief Dispatcher's certificate Mad operator -- got up to 800 cars on the last layout's switchlist. It's doubtful 800 cars a day passed through Dayton on the PRR. --part1_3c.2fb2ad67.2bf75d28_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/12/03 8:36:52 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Bob Flores <bobflores99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Prototype Operations

    As a member of The Janus Junction RR Club, one of
our members, Carl Albrech has written train orders
that involve as many members as are available for a
given operating session.  There are typically yard
masters that make up trains with specific cars, or
passenger trains that are made up, and these trains
are turned over to operators who have specific orders
to drop off cars at industries, or pick them up at
specific industries.  The passenger trains are still
given precedence, and the doodlebug makes runs as
well.  This is run in sequence, and we have been
trying to generate timetables to correspond to the
fast clock based on these operations.  Cars will sit
between operating sessions for several weeks, and
hopefully not be in the way, as they are in sidings.
It is up to the operator to get the cars in or out,
and he can make up the train in a specific order if he
can, or has time.  There is a combination of cars from
the yards, and pickups that are transfered.  It can be
an interesting operating session.
     Carl is working on one of his certificates for
the NMRA.  As a general rule, most of the freight
trains are not of any great length, more like local
service.  Tuesdays at the Janus Center.  Get back with
me if you would like more information.
     Operations can be very interesting.  I am not<= BR> sure how closely this matches prototype operations,
but there could be some similarities.  There
definitely is more then on way to do things.  The only
computers we use are for the word processor to do a
neat job of writing up these sessions, and perhaps a
spreadsheet to make up the timetables. 
            &nbs= p;  Bob Flores, in Columbus, Ohio


Hello again, Bob:

More reasons to visit the Janus Center!  That's on the grounds of the O= hio State Fairgrounds, right?  Glad you're having fun with all this.
It sounds like Carl Albrech is working on his Chief Dispatcher's certificate= in the NMRA's Achievement Program.  As a holder of the "CD", I'd be ha= ppy to assist him (and others) in working toward the "CD" any way I can -- t= hat is both my wish AND a requirement of receiving the certificate.

Hopefully, Carl is clear on the difference between "train orders" and switch= ing "work orders".  Train Orders (usually the highly stylized Form 19 a= nd Form 31 Orders) are for the purpose of altering train schedules as establ= ished in the employee timetable.  Of course, for extras, these Train Or= ders also create a schedule that does not exist in/on the employee timetable= .  A train order is fairly easy to identify; it's written/typed on the=20= railroad's Form 19 (or 31 for life-threatening changes), is numbered, and is= issued by the dispatcher over the superintendent's signature or initials.&n= bsp; Your "sequence" of train movements can easily be written out as these T= rain Orders -- that's what I did on the last Panhandle layout.

Various work orders, on the other hand, figure in prototype or model car mov= ement.  Whether switchlists, orders to work specific sidings and indust= ries, or some other kind of paper, they distinctly different from Train Orde= rs and are far less formal.  They may range from a car list form provid= ed by the railroad, to a message form, or even a scribbled note.  In an= y case, they describe work to be done, but cannot establish the rights of a=20= train to hold a particular track at a particular time.

BTW, there's a nice chicken-or-the-egg argument here.  I like to point=20= out to my operators that, on a layout, the car movement "system" comes first= .  However, as soon as the car fleet starts moving around, a schedule (= or at least a fixed sequence of train movements) becomes desirable.  I=20= know there are folks who believe they should design their train movements fi= rst, and then establish car movement to fit.  But in my experience (40=20= years), if you start moving the cars, the train schedules design themselves=20= -- and keep on changing as long as you operate.

As you might guess, I'm not exactly impressed by the "operation in a box" ph= ilosophy.  Why try to go up two learning curves at the same time when o= ne (car movement) is enough to start with?  I thought this hobby was su= pposed to be fun...

Rick Tipton
NMRA Life Member
Chief Dispatcher's certificate
Mad operator -- got up to 800 cars on the last layout's switchlist.  It= 's doubtful 800 cars a day passed through Dayton on the PRR. --part1_3c.2fb2ad67.2bf75d28_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:47:38 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] A SURPRISE FROM RAIL CLASSICS, THE N-5c Hello All: We at RAIL CLASSICS have been working on a project while we were building our N-8, the N-5c, also including interior and lights. Also, before you certain ones ask, NO RUNNING WATER, however there will be a water tank inside the interior, so !! They will be available in a few months and will BE THE SAME GREAT PRICE as our N-8's Factory Paint with painted interiors and lighting were. See our Web Site for info www.railclassics.com Thank you for your support, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:30:50 -0400 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/4483Frame1Source1.htm -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Shickler Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 4:34 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? #4483 is at Hamburg, NY. Boiler jacket removed & out in the elements: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/class_i.htm Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Pandelios" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? > Hello All, > > My question is simple. Did any of the PRR's 598 2-10-0 Decapods survive? > > Thanks, > > George > > Modeling the PRR in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH area from 1948-1957 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Any surviving 2-10-0 PRR Decapods? It would be nice to see her under steam! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "william pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/06/03 Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:11:05 -0400 As response to question your about what type of operating people like. I prefer through freights , way freights and and locals in that order. I get enough stress and have enough time lines to meet to have to worry about such things in my leisure time. I like things layed back.I belong to the Delmarva model railroad club and we have a group of operators that trys to get together monthly. We are located in Delmar DE. I have also operated on Bob Clarks pennsy layout in eastern shore MD. Both layouts use a version of car cards and a train list to let us know whats up next. As to my own layout it is in the very beginning stages. Meaning it's still in my head and on many scraps of paper. It will though use some mixture of car cards and train lists. That destination list thing sounds interesting. I do like the idea that I don't have to worry about staging or running a just for fun train between op sessions. This is my first attempt at posting to PRR TALK so if I've done it incorrectly please let me know Bill Pokorny Subject: Operating Pennsy Model Railroads From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:49:26 -0400 If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts". For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I didn't think of. Through Train Engineer - Whether it be passenger or freight, this job is to run a train through the layout, mostly non-stop. Probably an ideal job for the "rail fan". Way Freight Engineer - Take a small train out on the layout and drop off/pick up cars. Not overly involved, but some activity. Local Switcher - Larger switching areas often have dedicated switchers. This involves a lot of switching, planning moves, switch-backs, etc. Yard - Assembling a disassembling trains per car cards. Very fast paced, but usually straightforward. Hostler - Works with the yard to get power to/from trains. Dispatcher - Plans movements over the main line. Very analytical. Must think 15 minutes ahead (or more). May assume the role of tower operators for the entire system, depending on set-up. May or may not be computerized. Tower - A subset of the dispatcher's role. Sets alignments through a specific territory. On a model railroad, one tower may/probably controls several interlockings. May or may not be computerized. I've heard people comment on layouts they've been to and they didn't like them because they were "all switching", "not enough switching", etc. I hope to provide a little of everything. My one switching area will be a monster (Harrisburg freight station and REA area). Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. (Having operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] L&N through Varnish on PRR --0-873146441-1053205853=:75749 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ron, surprised you haven't gotten response. I know that the L&N was the Pennsy's first and closest business partner forwarding through Cincinnati. The PRR's direct connection south was via the L&N bridge. Oasis Tower, located on the riverfront line on the northern approaches to the bridge (located just east of Riverfront Colesium and the Great American Ballpark and west of I-71 bridge, demolished in early or mid 1990s) controlled the junction. I've sold all my PRR ptt's.I seem to remember that the L&N and PRR ran through cars, coach and sleeper, on The Manhattan, an L&N name train, that joined (I think)The Cincinnatian at CUT. It may be that only PRR cars crossed the river. The PRR also swapped varnish with the C&O at CUT. Passenger interchange w/L&N also at Louisville, route of Chicago-Florida PRR "-wind" trains. The Southern also may have been involved. Hope this inspires Rick Tipton or someone else to fill in the blanks. Tom V Ronald Di Orio wrote: Andy and list members I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Southern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birmingham Special. I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc. According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was taken from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE: "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & Nashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via Nashville on the following L&N trains: #!164 The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW) #8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car #98 The Pan American New Orleans-Pittsburgh 10 Sections/Lounge #99 The PanAmerican NY-Louisville (10-6) NY-Nashville (10-6) NY-Memphis (10-6) switched at Louisville Pittsburgh-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (8-5) Washington-New Orleans (10 Sections/Lounge)" Anyone have any accurate information on what cars were used in these various services? I know that the L&N had three Plan 4140 10-6 sleepers painted in PRR colors for this service, GREEN RIVER, BARREN RIVER, and KENTUCKY RIVER. There is a photo of one of these accesible through the Passenger Car Photo Index. What about those 10-1-2's? Could these be the four cars owned by L&N built to plan 4074 which the Bachmann car more or less represents, or are they some other 10-1-2's, possibly PRR cars? A quick look at a 1944 PRR public timetable in my possession also shows through service on these routes, but I would assume that all cars supplied at that time would be Pullman owned and lettered. Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated, especially for the period 1947-1950. I posted a similar query to the L&N discussion group and was given a reference to a past issue of "Dixie Line", the equivalent of "The Keystone", but I have no access to this publication. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PennsyWest-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-873146441-1053205853=:75749 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Ron,
 
  surprised you haven't gotten response.  I know that the L&N was the Pennsy's first and closest business partner forwarding through Cincinnati. The PRR's direct connection south was via the L&N bridge. Oasis Tower, located on the riverfront line on the northern approaches to the bridge (located just east of Riverfront Colesium and the Great American Ballpark and west of I-71 bridge, demolished in early or mid 1990s) controlled the junction.
   I've sold all my PRR ptt's.I seem to remember that the L&N and PRR ran through cars, coach and sleeper, on The Manhattan, an L&N name train, that joined (I think)The Cincinnatian at CUT. It may be that only PRR cars crossed the river. The PRR also swapped varnish with the C&O at CUT. Passenger interchange w/L&N also at Louisville, route of Chicago-Florida PRR "-wind" trains. The Southern also may have been involved.
   Hope this inspires Rick Tipton or someone else to fill in the blanks.
 
Tom V

Ronald Di Orio <prr2249@yahoo.com> wrote:
Andy and list members

I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Southern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birmingham Special.

I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc.  According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was taken from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE:

  "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & Nashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via Nashville on the following L&N trains:
#!164   The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW)
#8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car
#98   The Pan American
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-873146441-1053205853=:75749-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jimpierceiii" Subject: [PRR] Assistance Asked Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 21:51:12 -0400 This is first to introduce myself , and then to ask a question or two . I'm Jim Pierce from Grand Rapids Mi. I've been into HO Railroading for about twenty five years now . The last fifteen or so doing PRR passengers equipment ..That sounds like a lot more experience than it really is , as you can only do just so much on a ship at sea . Since my retirement , my hopes to start a train room have had to be set aside since the arrival of my , at the time five year old , now nine granddaughter . So it's still display pieces only . For about the last year and a half , I've been building a 15 car consist for the Broadway . I am working from a Aug.1 1949 departure from Sunnyside . This taken from a copy of Pennsy Streamliners by Joe Welsh . I now have all the cars represented , and am doing upgrades down the line . Now is when it gets interesting . I have been using the PRRTHS website , equipment diagrams , Photos from Joe Welsh's book . And , just about anything I can get my hands on . As I now work for the Grand Rapids Public Library , my resources are very good . My biggest problem is undercar details . I've made myself about half blind working with a magnifying glass while I study what ever photos I can get , trying to pick out details from heavily shadowed angled pictures . I was in hopes that some of you could help . I need a line on some accurate diagrams , source material , what ever I can get . As I have been hanging around the edges for a while reading the posts , I noticed that I'm not the last man in the world building full length passenger cars . Even if only for display as I haven't as yet figured a way to set-up R 36" turns on the dinning table . If you think I'm a nut , your probably right . But , I'm enjoying myself . From what I've read , I think I share a common interest with more than a few of you . So , if I haven't worn out my welcome , I hope to have many pleasant hours going over the posts on the group list . One last thing , if it will help my credentials any , my father used to fire K-4s from Grand Rapids to Wheeling , in the last years before Diesel took over completely . That's where I picked -up the Pennsy bug in the first place . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:14:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Budd Underbody Detail --part1_116.235f39d6.2bf84676_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a request for underbody details has been posted. Along with their excellent line of HO Budd cars, Walthers offers an underbody detail kit, 0933-1057, that not only includes underbody but roof vent and interior bulkheads w/doors. The kit is well worth the price for all the goodies included. The parts are done in black plastic. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_116.235f39d6.2bf84676_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   As a request for underbody details has been pos= ted. 

  Along with their excellent line of HO Budd cars, Walthers offers an u= nderbody detail kit, 0933-1057, that not only includes underbody but roof ve= nt and interior bulkheads w/doors.  The kit is well worth the price for= all the goodies included.  The parts are done in black plastic.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_116.235f39d6.2bf84676_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Budd Coach Class for PRR Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:31:58 -0400 List, I'm asking for some advice for a model i aquired before christmas which I am finally getting time to work on. It's a Kashiner all-metal coach. I'd like to add it to my Congressional fleet but it doesn't totally match any particular class. My best guess is close to a P82R or a P85. Would anyone have any other suggestions? I realise it wont be PRR acurate, but it won't be a contest model. While i'm on this general idea, does anyone know where I could purchase black futura decals in HO? Thanks in advance for any help rendered. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Water Hatch Positions on Streamline K4 Tender Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:37:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C31D10.59F02B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was looking at a recent Challenger HO model of PRR streamlined K4 3670 = at the hobby shop yesterday, and its water hatches are parallel and = right next to the upward extension of the tender sides. There are bars = between the hatches that suggest they may have been opened by sliding = them rather than lifting them. Ideally in the past, importers have made the drawings that were used in = their projects available to MR, the Gazette, or Mainline Modeler, along = with relevant photos and other info. At least Precision Scale comes to = mind for doing this. It doesn't seem like this has happened in this = case. It might be worth a letters to the importers and letters to the = editor campaign about this. Publishing the drawings and photos means (1) the importer or the person = who worked with the importer on research gets a little extra money and = recognition for work on the project; (2) the buying public gets a clear = idea of the accuracy of the project. But if anyone uses the drawings to = scratchbuild a whatever, it likely won't detract from the importer's = market. ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C31D10.59F02B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was looking at a recent Challenger HO model of PRR = streamlined K4 3670 at the hobby shop yesterday, and its water hatches = are=20 parallel and right next to the upward extension of the tender = sides.  There=20 are bars between the hatches that suggest they may have been opened by = sliding=20 them rather than lifting them.
 
Ideally in the past, importers have made the = drawings that=20 were used in their projects available to MR, the Gazette, or Mainline = Modeler,=20 along with relevant photos and other info.  At least Precision = Scale comes=20 to mind for doing this.  It doesn't seem like this has happened in = this=20 case.  It might be worth a letters to the importers and letters to = the=20 editor campaign about this.
 
Publishing the drawings and photos means (1) the = importer or=20 the person who worked with the importer on research gets a little extra = money=20 and recognition for work on the project; (2) the buying public gets a = clear idea=20 of the accuracy of the project.  But if anyone uses the drawings to = scratchbuild a whatever, it likely won't detract from the importer's=20 market.
------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C31D10.59F02B20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:38:07 -0400 From: Phil Balles Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd Coach Class for PRR All At first I thought it was just me, but at least a few people seem to be looking for underbody details for modeling passenger cars - as David Sweetland has written a few books on PRR cars (as well as worked in the car shops at Altoona) , he would seem to be the right guy to get info from. Does anyone know how to get in contact with him? Phil Balles John Frantz wrote: > List, > > I'm asking for some advice for a model i aquired before christmas > which I am finally getting time to work on. It's a Kashiner all-metal > coach. I'd like to add it to my Congressional fleet but it doesn't > totally match any particular class. My best guess is close to a P82R > or a P85. > Would anyone have any other suggestions? I realise it wont be PRR > acurate, but it won't be a contest model. While i'm on this general > idea, does anyone know where I could purchase black futura decals in HO? > Thanks in advance for any help rendered. > -John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd Coach Class for PRR Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:12:04 -0400 Phil and List, The car I have is prebuilt. It does have fluted sides. The car is actually supposed to be a New York Central coach. For obvious reasons there is no way it will be in that scheme. If anyone on this list has any resources, the suggested NYC coach number is 3029. A class identification could possibly be made through that and then a similar PRR class given. Secondly, Phil, it is convienient that the current subject matter is that of passenger cars. I don't really care for underbody details unless it adds to the overall side profile. Such as the water tanks, and refridgeration equipment on a diner. -John Phil wrote: >All >At first I thought it was just me, but at least a few >people seem to be looking for underbody details for >modeling passenger cars - as David Sweetland has written >a >few books on PRR cars (as well as worked in the car shops >at Altoona) , he would seem to be the right guy to get >info from. Does anyone know how to get in contact with >him? >Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 23:24:48 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale F7 Antennas Hi All, I have just finished a project started in January. It is an antenna stanchion drill fixture http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F3_fixture.jpg for my S Scale S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html F7. I researched MANY photos, and measured 100 times. It is as close as I can get without having an actual antenna layout drawing, which no one has been able to find. I probably have 30-40 hours of time in making it. I wondered recently if I should have just put tape down and drilled through that! I just placed the stanchions in the holes here to get a feel for the future finished model. Here is the one of my factory painted A Units that is about to be drilled. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/SHS_F3.jpg Since I have copied my S Scale lists, please contact me privately if you are interested in having me drill the antenna holes for you. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:30:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... --part1_1e6.9249737.2bfa1a40_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/03 6:27:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:21:57 -0700 > From: "John Bruce" > Subject: Re: Thoughts on "operating", NMRA Chief Dispatcher's certificate > > Rick, I was delighted to hear a sane, modeler-oriented, discussion of train > orders vs switchlists, done in a pleasant tone that encourages us to > continue operating. That it came from an NMRA person is doubly surprising, > but certainly says good things about you personally. > John, Thanks for your kind comments. Really just passing along the message that operating is just one more way that model railroading is (take your pick) 1. The world's greatest hobby 2. Fun 3. A wonderful way for adults to play together 4. A good second best for a railfan since the "good" railroads are gone. 5. Not a bad way to pass time when not in pursuit of women . I take no real credit nor blame for being an NMRA member. Where I grew up (Dayton OH), the best modelers and layout builders and operators were all NMRA members. So as soon as I could put together the money, I became a life member. Since then, I've railroaded with NMRA people in Columbus, Palo Alto, Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, and (most of the last 30 years) in Louisville. Like any other group of people, I find most of them friendly, many helpful, and a few obnoxious beyond belief. I've learned a lot from all of them. Cleverly changing the subject, I would like to ask our listers some questions about operation: 1. Do you think there's anything about Pennsy modeling that makes operating the layout more (or less) likely that for other prototypes? In other words, does modeling the Pennsy give us a familiarity with the equipment, signaling practices, routes, etc. that makes it more likely a Pennsy layout will be operated by a group of Pennsy fans? One possible answer -- maybe operating cars and engines carrying the classes and road numbers of real equipment reinforces our enjoyment of the models. 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via Pennsy email lists... 3. Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around 5-star mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo Tower, or Newark Penn Station? Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines and still appeal to other Pennsy fans? 4. Can the "Bill Darnaby and Tony Koester" paradigm of midwestern railroading translate into a layout with interest to Pennsy fans? So much of PRR Lines West was essentially "grangers with keystones". Those of you who know me can guess that I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to choose one of several track plans designed around Panhandle lines in Ohio. I have no trouble at all with the principle that I must please myself, not just others. However, I'm giving a lot of thought to various alternatives that might entertain me -- and I can only build one at a time. Meantime -- get out there and run that layout if you've got one. Otherwise, go visit a friend who does. Switchin' cars is mighty satisfyin'... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West And hoping to be back in operation soon --part1_1e6.9249737.2bfa1a40_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/18/03 6:27:12 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:21:57 -0700
   From: "John Bruce" <j.bruce@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on "operating", NMRA Chief Dispatcher's certificate
Rick, I was delighted to hear a sane, modeler-oriented, discussion of train=20= orders vs switchlists, done in a pleasant tone that encourages us to continu= e operating.  That it came from an NMRA person is doubly surprising, bu= t certainly says good things about you personally.


John,

Thanks for your kind comments.  Really just passing along the message t= hat operating is just one more way that model railroading is (take your pick= )
1.  The world's greatest hobby
2.  Fun
3.  A wonderful way for adults to play together
4.  A good second best for a railfan since the "good" railroads are gon= e.
5.  Not a bad way to pass time when not in pursuit of women <G>.<= BR>
I take no real credit nor blame for being an NMRA member.  Where I grew= up (Dayton OH), the best modelers and layout builders and operators were al= l NMRA members.  So as soon as I could put together the money, I became= a life member.  Since then, I've railroaded with NMRA people in Columb= us, Palo Alto, Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, and (most of the last 30 years) in Lo= uisville.  Like any other group of people, I find most of them friendly= , many helpful, and a few obnoxious beyond belief.  I've learned a lot=20= from all of them.

Cleverly changing the subject, I would like to ask our listers some question= s about operation:

1. Do you think there's anything about Pennsy modeling that makes operating=20= the layout more (or less) likely that for other prototypes?  In other w= ords, does modeling the Pennsy give us a familiarity with the equipment, sig= naling practices, routes, etc. that makes it more likely a Pennsy layout wil= l be operated by a group of Pennsy fans?  One possible answer -- maybe=20= operating cars and engines carrying the classes and road numbers of real equ= ipment reinforces our enjoyment of the models. 

2.  Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known= prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and equi= pment that's fictionalized?   Certainly, we get to know each other= via Pennsy email lists...

3.  Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around 5= -star mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo Tower,=20= or Newark Penn Station?  Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines and= still appeal to other Pennsy fans?

4.  Can the "Bill Darnaby and Tony Koester" paradigm of midwestern rail= roading translate into a layout with interest to Pennsy fans?  So much=20= of PRR Lines West was essentially "grangers with keystones".

Those of you who know me can guess that I'm asking these questions because I= 'm trying to choose one of several track plans designed around Panhandle lin= es in Ohio.  I have no trouble at all with the principle that I must pl= ease myself, not just others.  However, I'm giving a lot of thought to=20= various alternatives that might entertain me -- and I can only build one at=20= a time.

Meantime -- get out there and run that layout if you've got one.  Other= wise, go visit a friend who does.  Switchin' cars is mighty satisfyin'.= ..

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
And hoping to be back in operation soon --part1_1e6.9249737.2bfa1a40_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:30:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Favorite types of jobs --part1_2d.2ecb69c1.2bfa1a55_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/03 1:11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Operating Pennsy Model Railroads > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:49:26 -0400 > > If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is > a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, > I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts". > > For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or > hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll > suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I > didn't think of. > > Through Train Engineer - Whether it be passenger or freight, this job is to > run a train through the layout, mostly non-stop. Probably an ideal job for > the "rail fan". > > Way Freight Engineer - Take a small train out on the layout and drop > off/pick up cars. Not overly involved, but some activity. > > Local Switcher - Larger switching areas often have dedicated switchers. > This > involves a lot of switching, planning moves, switch-backs, etc. > > Yard - Assembling a disassembling trains per car cards. Very fast paced, > but > usually straightforward. > > Hostler - Works with the yard to get power to/from trains. > > Dispatcher - Plans movements over the main line. Very analytical. Must > think > 15 minutes ahead (or more). May assume the role of tower operators for the > entire system, depending on set-up. May or may not be computerized. > > Tower - A subset of the dispatcher's role. Sets alignments through a > specific territory. On a model railroad, one tower may/probably controls > several interlockings. May or may not be computerized. > > I've heard people comment on layouts they've been to and they didn't like > them because they were "all switching", "not enough switching", etc. I hope > to provide a little of everything. My one switching area will be a monster > (Harrisburg freight station and REA area). > > Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and > radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. > (Having > operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Hi Jerry, I apologize for answering this one a little late -- much else going on here right now. When I first entered the hobby, I "knew" from reading Frank Ellison etc. that the central job on a model railroad was the Way Freight Engineer -- except that our locals always carried an Engr and a Conductor. Ever since, I've always liked to be introduced to a layout by running a way freight as either engineer or conductor -- that way you see yards, mainline, and towns with industries, and really get a feeling for what's on the pike and how it works. I can see that I'm mixing up your categories a little -- our way freights combined your "local" description, carrying cars out from the yard to a town and then making deliveries and pickups. The more cars to switch in a town, the more our way freights sounded like your "local" job type, with extended switching at multicar industries and staying in one town a long time to get the job done. Once I had tasted way freight operation, I was hungry to try out a yard job. First one I got, I brought the whole operating session to its knees because I had not learned that you must sort cars as they arrive -- in a lively operating session, you never get a second chance and fall behind quickly. However, with some experience, I found that trying to keep a yard fluid when all cars had to be sorted immediately for new outgoing trains was a lot of fun. Once I built up a home layout, I found that we could use the road jobs (yard to staging) to introduce new operators as engineers, but had to have at least one and preferably two experienced operators on each way freight. I also found that the most experienced operators wanted me to dispatch so they could get into the yardmaster's position. In a perfect world, all operators would be or would become experienced enough to handle any job right up to dispatcher. However, in the real world, the layout owner makes compromises, trying to match less experienced operators with jobs they can grow into easily, and hoarding the experienced ops for the really tough jobs that keep the model railroad humming. Some recommendations that occur to me: 1. Don't set up inexperienced people to fail. The greener the engineer, the more experienced the conductor needs to be. Annul trains or let things run late in preference to letting someone have a bad/embarassing experience (this is for your benefit, that of your crew, and that of the newbie). 2. Don't qualify an operator by how many times he's understudied a job -- people learn this stuff at different rates. "Promote" the operator when you've seen him perform satisfactorily. 3. Do let your operator bring their friends to a session. DON'T let them operate together -- assign them to different crews, each paired with the right level of capability. Also, don't let operators pair off for the evening. Keep mixing up engineers and conductors if you can, so that learning continues. 3. Do try to rotate your experienced folks into the dispatcher's chair, the yardmaster's spot, and any "nasty and intricate" local conductor jobs. One well-known layout owner would only let two "experts" run the main yard. And I was there the night that a group visited but both of the "experts" had dates. Bummer! 4. Do try to keep a sense of humor about all this. Try to downplay the disciplinary crap. Even the best operators can make the dumbest mistakes on a model railroad -- if you set the right tone, even they will be able to find this funny. Model railroading just isn't the "everyday professional", fail-safe, "safety above everything" show that we expect from the prototype. It's not just a matter of being serious -- it's that the consequences are simply not life-threatening. 5. Leave room for fun stuff. Stop the fast clock when things get bungled up. Show slides if the layout shorts out. Go out for pizza if you lose utility power. Maybe use a car movement system that is not destroyed by a few goofs. Let any pressure on your operators to perform be strictly self-inflicted. Lean over backwards not to assign blame. Folks will enjoy themselves more, will come back again, and will bring their friends. Jerry, I'm still not sure this was a good answer to your question. Still, these are a few things to think about in coordinating your operators with all those positions. I look forward to operating with you there... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_2d.2ecb69c1.2bfa1a55_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/18/03 1:11:52 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Operating Pennsy Model= Railroads
From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:49:26 -0400

If the prototype-only folks will "bear with" for a few posts, since this is<= BR> a proto/model list and we are just past a weekend of Pennsy layout tours, I'd like to open a thread on "Operating Pennsy Layouts".

For those of you who own operating layouts, operate on other's layouts, or hope to operate, I'd like to know what types of jobs you look for. I'll
suggest the following, and open it up for other categories that perhaps I didn't think of.

Through Train Engineer - Whether it be passenger or freight, this job is to<= BR> run a train through the layout, mostly non-stop. Probably an ideal job for the "rail fan".

Way Freight Engineer - Take a small train out on the layout and drop
off/pick up cars. Not overly involved, but some activity.

Local Switcher - Larger switching areas often have dedicated switchers. This=
involves a lot of switching, planning moves, switch-backs, etc.

Yard - Assembling a disassembling trains per car cards. Very fast paced, but=
usually straightforward.

Hostler - Works with the yard to get power to/from trains.

Dispatcher - Plans movements over the main line. Very analytical. Must think=
15 minutes ahead (or more). May assume the role of tower operators for the entire system, depending on set-up. May or may not be computerized.

Tower - A subset of the dispatcher's role. Sets alignments through a
specific territory. On a model railroad, one tower may/probably controls
several interlockings. May or may not be computerized.

I've heard people comment on layouts they've been to and they didn't like them because they were "all switching", "not enough switching", etc. I hope<= BR> to provide a little of everything. My one switching area will be a monster (Harrisburg freight station and REA area).

Also, feel free to chime in on use of car cards, timetable operation, and radio vs. telephone. I plan to use car cards, timetable, and radios. (Having=
operators with trainphone rigs seemed a bit extreme!)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyr= r.com


Hi Jerry,

I apologize for answering this one a little late -- much else going on here=20= right now.

When I first entered the hobby, I "knew" from reading Frank Ellison etc. tha= t the central job on a model railroad was the Way Freight Engineer -- except= that our locals always carried an Engr and a Conductor.  Ever since, I= 've always liked to be introduced to a layout by running a way freight as ei= ther engineer or conductor -- that way you see yards, mainline, and towns wi= th industries, and really get a feeling for what's on the pike and how it wo= rks.

I can see that I'm mixing up your categories a little -- our way freights co= mbined your "local" description, carrying cars out from the yard to a town a= nd then making deliveries and pickups.  The more cars to switch in a to= wn, the more our way freights sounded like your "local" job type, with exten= ded switching at multicar industries and staying in one town a long time to=20= get the job done.

Once I had tasted way freight operation, I was hungry to try out a yard job.=   First one I got, I brought the whole operating session to its knees b= ecause I had not learned that you must sort cars as they arrive -- in a live= ly operating session, you never get a second chance and fall behind quickly.=   However, with some experience, I found that trying to keep a yard flu= id when all cars had to be sorted immediately for new outgoing trains was a=20= lot of fun.

Once I built up a home layout, I found that we could use the road jobs (yard= to staging) to introduce new operators as engineers, but had to have at lea= st one and preferably two experienced operators on each way freight.  I= also found that the most experienced operators wanted me to dispatch so the= y could get into the yardmaster's position.

In a perfect world, all operators would be or would become experienced enoug= h to handle any job right up to dispatcher.  However, in the real world= , the layout owner makes compromises, trying to match less experienced opera= tors with jobs they can grow into easily, and hoarding the experienced ops f= or the really tough jobs that keep the model railroad humming.

Some recommendations that occur to me:

1. Don't set up inexperienced people to fail.  The greener the engineer= , the more experienced the conductor needs to be.  Annul trains or let=20= things run late in preference to letting someone have a bad/embarassing expe= rience (this is for your benefit, that of your crew, and that of the newbie)= .
2. Don't qualify an operator by how many times he's understudied a job -- pe= ople learn this stuff at different rates.  "Promote" the operator when=20= you've seen him perform satisfactorily.
3. Do let your operator bring their friends to a session.  DON'T let th= em operate together -- assign them to different crews, each paired with the=20= right level of capability.  Also, don't let operators pair off for the=20= evening.  Keep mixing up engineers and conductors if you can, so that l= earning continues.
3. Do try to rotate your experienced folks into the dispatcher's chair, the=20= yardmaster's spot, and any "nasty and intricate" local conductor jobs. = One well-known layout owner would only let two "experts" run the main yard.=   And I was there the night that a group visited but both of the "exper= ts" had dates.  Bummer!
4.  Do try to keep a sense of humor about all this.  Try to downpl= ay the disciplinary crap.  Even the best operators can make the dumbest= mistakes on a model railroad -- if you set the right tone, even they will b= e able to find this funny.  Model railroading just isn't the "everyday=20= professional", fail-safe, "safety above everything" show that we expect from= the prototype.   It's not just a matter of being serious -- it's=20= that the consequences are simply not life-threatening.
5.  Leave room for fun stuff.  Stop the fast clock when things get= bungled up.  Show slides if the layout shorts out.  Go out for pi= zza if you lose utility power.  Maybe use a car movement system that is= not destroyed by a few goofs.  Let any pressure on your operators to p= erform be strictly self-inflicted.  Lean over backwards not to assign b= lame.  Folks will enjoy themselves more, will come back again, and will= bring their friends.

Jerry, I'm still not sure this was a good answer to your question.  Sti= ll, these are a few things to think about in coordinating your operators wit= h all those positions.

I look forward to operating with you there...
 
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_2d.2ecb69c1.2bfa1a55_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:30:52 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR - L&N Through Varnish In a message dated 5/18/03 1:11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] L&N through Varnish on PRR > From: "Tom Vondruska" > Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) > > --0-873146441-1053205853=:75749 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Ron, > > surprised you haven't gotten response. I know that the L&N was the > Pennsy's first and closest business partner forwarding through Cincinnati. > The PRR's direct connection south was via the L&N bridge. Oasis Tower, > located on the riverfront line on the northern approaches to the bridge > (located just east of Riverfront Colesium and the Great American Ballpark > and west of I-71 bridge, demolished in early or mid 1990s) controlled the > junction. > I've sold all my PRR ptt's.I seem to remember that the L&N and PRR ran > through cars, coach and sleeper, on The Manhattan, an L&N name train, that > joined (I think)The Cincinnatian at CUT. It may be that only PRR cars > crossed the river. The PRR also swapped varnish with the C&O at CUT. > Passenger interchange w/L&N also at Louisville, route of Chicago-Florida > PRR "-wind" trains. The Southern also may have been involved. > Hope this inspires Rick Tipton or someone else to fill in the blanks. > > Tom V > Ronald Di Orio wrote: Andy and list members I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Southern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birmingham Special. I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc. According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was taken from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE: "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & Nashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via Nashville on the following L&N trains: #!164 The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW) #8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car #98 The Pan American New Orleans-Pittsburgh 10 Sections/Lounge #99 The PanAmerican NY-Louisville (10-6) NY-Nashville (10-6) NY-Memphis (10-6) switched at Louisville Pittsburgh-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (8-5) Washington-New Orleans (10 Sections/Lounge)" Anyone have any accurate information on what cars were used in these various services? I know that the L&N had three Plan 4140 10-6 sleepers painted in PRR colors for this service, GREEN RIVER, BARREN RIVER, and KENTUCKY RIVER. There is a photo of one of these accesible through the Passenger Car Photo Index. What about those 10-1-2's? Could these be the four cars owned by L&N built to plan 4074 which the Bachmann car more or less represents, or are they some other 10-1-2's, possibly PRR cars? A quick look at a 1944 PRR public timetable in my possession also shows through service on these routes, but I would assume that all cars supplied at that time would be Pullman owned and lettered. Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated, especially for the period 1947-1950. I posted a similar query to the L&N discussion group and was given a reference to a past issue of "Dixie Line", the equivalent of "The Keystone", but I have no access to this publication. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron Di Orio Tom and Ron, I've been chicken on this (besides being tied up with other things). And I find coordinating the various references on this to be hard -- I get the feeling that not all my printed resources agree on all points. Some facts I can offer: 1. I think the Manhattan was PRR, not L&N. I have no idea where it ran west of New York city. The Cincinnatian was the premier B&O train out of Cincinnati, first to the east and later to Detroit. The Pennsy's major train into the Queen City was the Cincinnati Limited (nos 40 and 41). We can safely assume that the Cin. Ltd. carried the New York Pullmans to CUT in the diesel era. 2. No question that until 1933 PRR-L&N sleepers were interlined at Pearl Street Station (near OASIS) and the New York-Louisville, New York-Nashville, New York-Memphis, and possible New York-Birmingham sleepers went onto L&N trains there, crossing the Ohio River on the Newport & Cincinnati (aka "L&N" bridge) into Newport KY and taking the L&N's Short Line to Louisville, thence the L&N "Main Stem" toward Nashville. Cincinnati Union Terminal opened in 1933 and all PRR and L&N passenger trains moved there when it opened. Southbound L&N trains left CUT and used the nearby "C&O" bridge and trackage to cross the Ohio River and reach L&N tracks in Covington KY. 3. Once upon a time (1949, Pullman Standard) there were three L&N "River" series 10-6's painted in tuscan (Kentucky River, Green River, Barren River, as Ron said). Instead of the usual script Louisville & Nashville on the letterboard, these tuscan lightweights carried a PRR-like block lettering ("Standard Modified block font") and three 1-inch stripes, according to the recent L&N passenger book by Castner, Chapman, and Dorin). This reference states these cars were reassigned to other trains and repainted dark blue "by the early 1960's". Page 224 of the same book shows a photo of the Green River in Louisville (not Chicago), identified as taken 5/65. Not only is the Green River still in its Pennsy livery, but with a PRR diner ahead and a Northern Pacific dome-sleeper behind, this has to be a winter-season South Wind southbound out of Chicago (see below). 4. Incidentally, if that book Louisville & Nashville Passenger Trains, the Pan-American ERa, 1921-1971 had not been here on my shelf, Charlie Castner and Bob Chapman would still have been the first two guys I'd contact for an answer. 5. Although the cars were reassigned, New York-Louisville and New York-Nashville sleeper routes continued via Cincinnati, undoubtedly with PRR 10-6's in the Rapids series. I've seen a slide circa 1964 of a blue L&N consist (the Pan American?) coming into Louisville trailed by a tuscan PRR 10-6. 6. The story of the South Wind and its Chicago-Florida predecessors and competitors is fairly complex. It involves heavy interlining, and the subject seems to generate jealous growls from the fans of each of the 9 or more railroads involved. The last time I tried an explanation of this, I was invited by angry parties to breathe in some new and highly implausible ways, so this time I will leave attempts at explanation to others. At least there seem to be no L&N sleepers regularly involved with this train; the Pennsy's equipment partners for the South Wind seemed to be ACL and FEC. 7. I will state that a group of railfans here in Louisville are trying to assemble photos for several articles/books focusing on the area. Included in our clutch of photos are some really interesting pics of the South Wind at Louisville, virtually all of them mixes of the PRR and ACL equipment assigned. I'm not sure how representative our collection is -- due to schedule, they're mostly southbounds, pausing at Louisville Union Station (10th and Broadway). Notably there's not a "pure" PRR or ACL train in the bunch; I wonder if we are the victims of the tendency of railfans to ignore the norrmal and photograph the unusual? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:30:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR - L&N Through Varnish --part1_8f.2d136e4d.2bfa1a6c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/03 1:11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] L&N through Varnish on PRR > From: "Tom Vondruska" > Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) > > --0-873146441-1053205853=:75749 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Ron, > > surprised you haven't gotten response. I know that the L&N was the > Pennsy's first and closest business partner forwarding through Cincinnati. > The PRR's direct connection south was via the L&N bridge. Oasis Tower, > located on the riverfront line on the northern approaches to the bridge > (located just east of Riverfront Colesium and the Great American Ballpark > and west of I-71 bridge, demolished in early or mid 1990s) controlled the > junction. > I've sold all my PRR ptt's.I seem to remember that the L&N and PRR ran > through cars, coach and sleeper, on The Manhattan, an L&N name train, that > joined (I think)The Cincinnatian at CUT. It may be that only PRR cars > crossed the river. The PRR also swapped varnish with the C&O at CUT. > Passenger interchange w/L&N also at Louisville, route of Chicago-Florida > PRR "-wind" trains. The Southern also may have been involved. > Hope this inspires Rick Tipton or someone else to fill in the blanks. > > Tom V > Ronald Di Orio wrote: Andy and list members I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Southern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birmingham Special. I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc. According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was taken from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE: "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & Nashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via Nashville on the following L&N trains: #!164 The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW) #8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car #98 The Pan American New Orleans-Pittsburgh 10 Sections/Lounge #99 The PanAmerican NY-Louisville (10-6) NY-Nashville (10-6) NY-Memphis (10-6) switched at Louisville Pittsburgh-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (10-1-2) NY-New Orleans (8-5) Washington-New Orleans (10 Sections/Lounge)" Anyone have any accurate information on what cars were used in these various services? I know that the L&N had three Plan 4140 10-6 sleepers painted in PRR colors for this service, GREEN RIVER, BARREN RIVER, and KENTUCKY RIVER. There is a photo of one of these accesible through the Passenger Car Photo Index. What about those 10-1-2's? Could these be the four cars owned by L&N built to plan 4074 which the Bachmann car more or less represents, or are they some other 10-1-2's, possibly PRR cars? A quick look at a 1944 PRR public timetable in my possession also shows through service on these routes, but I would assume that all cars supplied at that time would be Pullman owned and lettered. Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated, especially for the period 1947-1950. I posted a similar query to the L&N discussion group and was given a reference to a past issue of "Dixie Line", the equivalent of "The Keystone", but I have no access to this publication. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron Di Orio Tom and Ron, I've been chicken on this (besides being tied up with other things). And I find coordinating the various references on this to be hard -- I get the feeling that not all my printed resources agree on all points. Some facts I can offer: 1. I think the Manhattan was PRR, not L&N. I have no idea where it ran west of New York city. The Cincinnatian was the premier B&O train out of Cincinnati, first to the east and later to Detroit. The Pennsy's major train into the Queen City was the Cincinnati Limited (nos 40 and 41). We can safely assume that the Cin. Ltd. carried the New York Pullmans to CUT in the diesel era. 2. No question that until 1933 PRR-L&N sleepers were interlined at Pearl Street Station (near OASIS) and the New York-Louisville, New York-Nashville, New York-Memphis, and possible New York-Birmingham sleepers went onto L&N trains there, crossing the Ohio River on the Newport & Cincinnati (aka "L&N" bridge) into Newport KY and taking the L&N's Short Line to Louisville, thence the L&N "Main Stem" toward Nashville. Cincinnati Union Terminal opened in 1933 and all PRR and L&N passenger trains moved there when it opened. Southbound L&N trains left CUT and used the nearby "C&O" bridge and trackage to cross the Ohio River and reach L&N tracks in Covington KY. 3. Once upon a time (1949, Pullman Standard) there were three L&N "River" series 10-6's painted in tuscan (Kentucky River, Green River, Barren River, as Ron said). Instead of the usual script Louisville & Nashville on the letterboard, these tuscan lightweights carried a PRR-like block lettering ("Standard Modified block font") and three 1-inch stripes, according to the recent L&N passenger book by Castner, Chapman, and Dorin). This reference states these cars were reassigned to other trains and repainted dark blue "by the early 1960's". Page 224 of the same book shows a photo of the Green River in Louisville (not Chicago), identified as taken 5/65. Not only is the Green River still in its Pennsy livery, but with a PRR diner ahead and a Northern Pacific dome-sleeper behind, this has to be a winter-season South Wind southbound out of Chicago (see below). 4. Incidentally, if that book Louisville & Nashville Passenger Trains, the Pan-American ERa, 1921-1971 had not been here on my shelf, Charlie Castner and Bob Chapman would still have been the first two guys I'd contact for an answer. 5. Although the cars were reassigned, New York-Louisville and New York-Nashville sleeper routes continued via Cincinnati, undoubtedly with PRR 10-6's in the Rapids series. I've seen a slide circa 1964 of a blue L&N consist (the Pan American?) coming into Louisville trailed by a tuscan PRR 10-6. 6. The story of the South Wind and its Chicago-Florida predecessors and competitors is fairly complex. It involves heavy interlining, and the subject seems to generate jealous growls from the fans of each of the 9 or more railroads involved. The last time I tried an explanation of this, I was invited by angry parties to breathe in some new and highly implausible ways, so this time I will leave attempts at explanation to others. At least there seem to be no L&N sleepers regularly involved with this train; the Pennsy's equipment partners for the South Wind seemed to be ACL and FEC. 7. I will state that a group of railfans here in Louisville are trying to assemble photos for several articles/books focusing on the area. Included in our clutch of photos are some really interesting pics of the South Wind at Louisville, virtually all of them mixes of the PRR and ACL equipment assigned. I'm not sure how representative our collection is -- due to schedule, they're mostly southbounds, pausing at Louisville Union Station (10th and Broadway). Notably there's not a "pure" PRR or ACL train in the bunch; I wonder if we are the victims of the tendency of railfans to ignore the norrmal and photograph the unusual? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_8f.2d136e4d.2bfa1a6c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/18/03 1:11:52 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] = L&N through Varnish on PRR
From: "Tom Vondruska" <tvondruska@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT)

--0-873146441-1053205853=3D:75749
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

Ron,

  surprised you haven't gotten response.  I know that the L&N=20= was the Pennsy's first and closest business partner forwarding through Cinci= nnati. The PRR's direct connection south was via the L&N bridge. Oasis T= ower, located on the riverfront line on the northern approaches to the bridg= e (located just east of Riverfront Colesium and the Great American Ballpark=20= and west of I-71 bridge, demolished in early or mid 1990s) controlled the ju= nction.
   I've sold all my PRR ptt's.I seem to remember that the L&N=20= and PRR ran through cars, coach and sleeper, on The Manhattan, an L&N na= me train, that joined (I think)The Cincinnatian at CUT. It may be that only=20= PRR cars crossed the river. The PRR also swapped varnish with the C&O at= CUT. Passenger interchange w/L&N also at Louisville, route of Chicago-F= lorida PRR "-wind" trains. The Southern also may have been involved.
   Hope this inspires Rick Tipton or someone else to fill in the b= lanks.

Tom V


Ronald Di Orio <prr2249@yahoo.com> wrote:
Andy and list members

I recently reread your comments on the Bachmann 10-1-2 sleeper as posted in=20= Keystone Crossings and noticed that you decided to letter yours for the Sout= hern, as the Southern cars got into Penn Station as through cars on the Birm= ingham Special.

I have been trying to track down the other cars from Birmingham, those that=20= ended up in New York via the L & N through Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc.&= nbsp; According to a post on PCL by Tim Gilbert, the following info was take= n from the February 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE:

  "The L&N did not have any direct coaches between New York & N= ashville.........There was through Pullman service to and from New York via=20= Nashville on the following L&N trains:
#!164   The Azalean--NY Birmingham (10-1-2 HW)
#8 Nashville-NY (10-6 LW) also a 10-6 Louisville-NY car
#98   The Pan American
          New Orleans-Pittsburg= h  10 Sections/Lounge
#99   The PanAmerican
          NY-Louisville (10-6)<= BR>   NY-Nashville (10-6)
          NY-Memphis (10-6)&nbs= p; switched at Louisville
          Pittsburgh-New Orlean= s (10-1-2)
          NY-New Orleans (10-1-= 2)
          NY-New Orleans (8-5)<= BR>           Washington-New Orlean= s (10 Sections/Lounge)"

Anyone have any accurate information on what cars were used in these various= services?  I know that the L&N had three Plan 4140 10-6 sleepers p= ainted in PRR colors for this service, GREEN RIVER, BARREN RIVER, and KENTUC= KY RIVER.  There is a photo of one of these accesible through the Passe= nger Car Photo Index.

What about those 10-1-2's?  Could these be the four cars owned by L&= ;N built to plan 4074 which the Bachmann car more or less represents, or are= they some other 10-1-2's, possibly PRR cars?

A quick look at a 1944 PRR public timetable in my possession also shows thro= ugh service on these routes, but I would assume that all cars supplied at th= at time would be Pullman owned and lettered.

Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated, especially for t= he period 1947-1950.  I posted a similar query to the L&N discussio= n group and was given a reference to a past issue of "Dixie Line", the equiv= alent of "The Keystone", but I have no access to this publication.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Ron Di Orio


Tom and Ron,

I've been chicken on this (besides being tied up with other things).  A= nd I find coordinating the various references on this to be hard -- I get th= e feeling that not all my printed resources agree on all points.

Some facts I can offer:
1.  I think the Manhattan was PRR, not L&N.  I have no=20= idea where it ran west of New York city.  The Cincinnatian was t= he premier B&O train out of Cincinnati, first to the east and later to D= etroit.  The Pennsy's major train into the Queen City was the Cincin= nati Limited (nos 40 and 41).  We can safely assume that the Cin= . Ltd. carried the New York Pullmans to CUT in the diesel era.

2.  No question that until 1933 PRR-L&N sleepers were interlined at= Pearl Street Station (near OASIS) and the New York-Louisville, New York-Nas= hville, New York-Memphis, and possible New York-Birmingham sleepers went ont= o L&N trains there, crossing the Ohio River on the Newport & Cincinn= ati (aka "L&N" bridge) into Newport KY and taking the L&N's Short Li= ne to Louisville, thence the L&N "Main Stem" toward Nashville.  Cin= cinnati Union Terminal opened in 1933 and all PRR and L&N passenger trai= ns moved there when it opened.  Southbound L&N trains left CUT and=20= used the nearby "C&O" bridge and trackage to cross the Ohio River and re= ach L&N tracks in Covington KY.

3.  Once upon a time (1949, Pullman Standard) there were three L&N=20= "River" series 10-6's painted in tuscan (Kentucky River, Green River, Barren= River, as Ron said).  Instead of the usual script Louisville & Nas= hville on the letterboard, these tuscan lightweights carried a PRR-like bloc= k lettering ("Standard Modified block font") and three 1-inch stripes, accor= ding to the recent L&N passenger book by Castner, Chapman, and Dorin).&n= bsp; This reference states these cars were reassigned to other trains and re= painted dark blue "by the early 1960's".  Page 224 of the same book sho= ws a photo of the Green River in Louisville (not Chicago), identified as tak= en 5/65.  Not only is the Green River still in its Pennsy livery, but w= ith a PRR diner ahead and a Northern Pacific dome-sleeper behind, this has t= o be a winter-season South Wind southbound out of Chicago (see below).

4.  Incidentally, if that book Louisville & Nashville Passenger=20= Trains, the Pan-American ERa, 1921-1971 had not been here on my shelf, C= harlie Castner and Bob Chapman would still have been the first two guys I'd=20= contact for an answer.

5.  Although the cars were reassigned, New York-Louisville and New York= -Nashville sleeper routes continued via Cincinnati, undoubtedly with PRR 10-= 6's in the Rapids series.  I've seen a slide circa 1964 of a blue L&= ;N consist (the Pan American?) coming into Louisville trailed by a tuscan PR= R 10-6.

6.  The story of the South Wind and its Chicago-Florida predecessors an= d competitors is fairly complex.  It involves heavy interlining, and th= e subject seems to generate jealous growls from the fans of each of the 9 or= more railroads involved.  The last time I tried an explanation of this= , I was invited by angry parties to breathe in some new and highly implausib= le ways, so this time I will leave attempts at explanation to others. =20= At least there seem to be no L&N sleepers regularly involved with this t= rain; the Pennsy's equipment partners for the South Wind seemed to be ACL an= d FEC.

7.  I will state that a group of railfans here in Louisville are trying= to assemble photos for several articles/books focusing on the area.  I= ncluded in our clutch of photos are some really interesting pics of the Sout= h Wind at Louisville, virtually all of them mixes of the PRR and ACL equipme= nt assigned.  I'm not sure how representative our collection is -- due=20= to schedule, they're mostly southbounds, pausing at Louisville Union Station= (10th and Broadway).  Notably  there's not a "pure" PRR or ACL tr= ain in the bunch; I wonder if we are the victims of the tendency of railfans= to ignore the norrmal and photograph the unusual?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_8f.2d136e4d.2bfa1a6c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:36:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Favorite types of jobs In a message dated 5/19/03 6:35:32 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I brought the whole operating session to its knees because I had not learned that you must sort cars as they arrive -- in a lively operating session, you never get a second chance and fall behind quickly. However, with some experience, I found that trying to keep a yard fluid when all cars had to be sorted immediately for new outgoing trains was a lot of fun. >> Even if you are operating on a yard to staging layout (as opposed to a staging to staging with, say, midpoint yard(s)), there are a few thoughts to avoid halting operations. First, use cutoff times. I have had to explain to newbie yard operators that if they have the Summit turn cars sorted on a track awaiting power and caboose, and a freight arrives with a car for Summit, you don't cherry pick that car out of the arriving freight. The crew for the Summit turn has been called and departs. The car goes next day (session). Cherrypicking in general is the downfall of newbie yardmasters. I sound like a broken record on other lists on the subject,but use the Grand Shove or the Grand Pull (term I picked up from a letter to the editor in the Dispatchers's Office from Tony Koester, and a procedure confirmed by modelers who have prototype job experience). Pull the whole track and begin sorting the way the prototype does. Then pull the next. You will get a yard sorted much more quickly. This presupposes you have designed the layout with an adequate yard lead. If you are just now designing the layout, then plan in that adequate yard lead. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd Coach Class for PRR Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:46:41 -0400 John Frantz wrote: I don't really care for underbody details unless it adds to the overall side profile. Such as the water tanks, and refrigeration equipment on a diner. Unless you're building a contest winner, this is a great rule to follow for both passenger and freight equipment. If it's good enough for Richard Hendrickson, it's good enough for me! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:10:41 -0400 From: caseyj Subject: [PRR] Re: operating Pennsy Layouts (long) Friends, This past Saturday I held an op session on my layout. This is not a new thing, I have been doing it now for about 4 years. This weekend was a bit different. I have a person that usually is my dispatcher. His profession is a NS dispatcher for the Buffalo Branch to Harrisburg. Lately, he has been unable to attend the sessions because of work. I have a couple of experienced crew members that attend most sessions but none that have ever dispatched on my layout. I have one member that usually takes the Lebanon YM's job and has grown into the job very well over the past year or two. I have another member that works well independently and has been performing a hostler job on another layout we operate on. This session my YM knew we wouldn't have a dispatcher and he wanted to try the hot seat. That left the YM's position open. When I sent out my crew call, I asked the members what position they would prefer. My hostler volunteered for YM or hostler. On my layout, I can live without a hostler bu The session started off well, I had 5 road crews assigned, two yard assistants (new crews), and a new dispatcher and Lebanon YM. New operating elements introduced this session were a spot card. The spot card is a traffic control device that prevents a YM from sending twelve cars to an industry with only a capacity of two cars as has happened in the past. A spot card must be in the car card pocket for a crew to accept it for delivery. No spot card, no car movement from the yard, simple. Each train has a train order card describing it's duties. It is inserted into the caboose card along with the engine card(s) that is assigned to that train. The trains are fairly short, 12-15 cars, due to the short distances between areas. There is nothing more unrealistic, IMOHO, than a train that stretches over four towns on a layout that are supposed to be miles apart. Smaller trains are a bit more managable on a layout that has areas less than 20 feet apart. My layout is also designed around the short, busy locals I used to see switching local industries in town when I was a kid in the 1950's. The mainline trains held no interest for me with their hundred cars, multiple unit diesels, going through town at speed while blowing for the continuous string of grade crossings. They were there and gone in a hurry. They never slowed down to give a kid a chance to see the engineer or talk to him while he was waiting for traffic to stop at the flagged crossing like the locals. That being said, I do not design "puzzle" switching areas. Lebanon, the busiest local, has it's area designed with two run-arounds to accomodate facing and trailing point moves. It's industrial area is also separate from the main track and yard to prevent it from stabbing arriving and departing trains. Lickdale is designed with a little more complexity but it is still not a spagheti bowl. One problem I have noticed is that the crews have a tendency to use the mainline to attempt to switch a long cut of cars into the industrial siding instead of taking small "bites" while using the open passing siding or the interchange tracks. This process kills the ability of the dispatcher to route traffic around the local during the session. I will investigate the possibility of adding a switching lead at the end of the entrance. That should help to eliminate that situation. Cornwall is a self-contained operation that involves the open-pit mine and it's operations moving iron ore to the concentrator plant and the blast furnace. The mine is also an operation itself that will keep a crew busy shuffling cars from the empty tracks to the tipples and departure tracks. The session was a good one considering the fact that over 50% of the crews were new and had never seen the layout and two of the key positions were being held down by trainees. From the conversation at the end of the session at the Pizza shop, everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. More experience and a few improvements in wheel cleaning will improve future sessions. Once again, this just proves that operating a layout is more fun than railfanning one. Regards, Nick Kulp Cornwall Railroad ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:31:05 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... Rick Tipton writes: >Cleverly changing the subject, I would like to ask our listers some >questions about operation: >1. Do you think there's anything about Pennsy modeling that makes >operating the layout more (or less) likely that for other prototypes? In >other words, does modeling the Pennsy give us a familiarity with the >equipment, signaling practices, routes, etc. that makes it more likely a >Pennsy layout will be operated by a group of Pennsy fans? I'm not sure that there it is any more likely for a PRR layout to be "operated" (as opposed to run). In fact, the complexity of mainline ops on the PRR may be a handicap to realistic operation, as is the tower system. Another potential pitfall, which I think we all live with to some degree is that PRR modelers can fall to the "collectors syndrome". PRR had such a wealth of interesting and unusual locos that we want one of each...Heck, I have two LL P2K HH1s, and while I MIGHT be able to rationalize one occaisionally, the main steam power on the Philly Division in 1944 was the L1s mike...and I only have one. I also see lots of PRR layouts that are "railfanning" layouts, with limited prototypical operation capability. I think this occurs for two reasons...first, many PRR modelers are a little older and these are classic 1950-80 "spaghetti bowl" layouts. Second, big power and long trains leave little room for much else on many a layout. >2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known >prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and >equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via >Pennsy email lists... Again, as above, I'm not sure if this is helpful or harmful...I find I get bogged down sometimes in projects making sure that detail is just right, because I have all the wonderful resources... That said, I'm a prototype modeler, and not a big fan of freelancing and its wonderful to be a PRR modeler. >3. Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around >5-star mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo >Tower, or Newark Penn Station? Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines >and still appeal to other Pennsy fans? While the 5-star location can be a big thrill, its also a BIG headache. For example, I have yet to see a layout that can actually support the traffic density of the New York-Philly electrified mainline...In fact, I believe that the 5-star stuff is WAY over modeled. It is MUCH easier to support a maximum 2 track main, from the point of view of modeled operations. Certainly, that is always my philosophy when designing a PRR layout. Another issue here is that you when you choose to model some icon of the PRR, you have to be careful taking liberties. We noted before that the PRR layout in MR with the eastward grade on Horseshoe curve and a 3 track steam era curve just seem "wrong" and are very disorienting. The more I reflect on my layout plans the more I like the mix of ops potential. a) The A&S - Double track main with helpers...railfanning potential, heavy trains, long runs, signals and towers, little switching, other than helpers on/off and dropping/adding blocks at Columbia b) The C&PD - Single track with passing sidings, signals. Meets, some switching c) The Octararo Branch - bucolic rambling single track with block stations (phone for clearance!), locals, lots of switching, passenger extras (mixed trains). >4. Can the "Bill Darnaby and Tony Koester" paradigm of midwestern >railroading translate into a layout with interest to Pennsy fans? So much >of PRR Lines West was essentially "grangers with keystones". Absolutely! In fact, it lends itself to some interesting and unique modeling and operations approaches...As I stated above, single or at most double track main, plenty of switching...Both Bill and Tony have included very PRR specific elements in their PRR junctions to capture the essence. In the steam era, nothing says Lines West to me like an H10, lines west tender and N6B! On top of that you can APPROPRIATELY use some pretty interesting motive power, like the N2s and Q2. Lots of grain box cars, plus the other notables of granger lines - grain elevators, team tracks for farm equipment, etc... The bottom line in designing a layout is to find the operational elements that will keep you and your operators coming back year after year. I personally find little "play value" in driving a train from one staging yard to another over the layout without any "work" (switching), IF that is the only thing to do. In identifying protoypic locations to model, you need to evaluate the operational potentail of each piece or stretch of track. My original plan was to model the C&PD between Perryville and Columbia. On examination, three serious problems were obvious... 1) How to model the wye at Perryville? Wyes EAT space, and again, how to model the traffic density going by on a VERY short strech of the mainline 2) What was the A&S junction at PORT going to contribute? Most trains would actyually use the A&S and not the C&PD, leaving heavy traffic and a VERY short mainline and lighter traffic on the layout portion...again, running trains from staging to staging with 3 minutes layout time is not a good plan! 3) What were C&PD trains going to do? Bottom line, almost no switching of through trains, and only a few local coal moves between Safe Harbor and Holtwood. In reality, 1&2 could be answered with computers to control looped traffic (but the loops eat space) or with dummy tracks (esp the A&S) but 3 was the killer...a pretty but BORING layout! Moving up the line to focus on Columbia and including far more of the A&S and adding the Octararo as a lower deck really helped address this! If I wanted to design a SMALL PRR lines east layout - I would seriously think about the Octararo Branch (10 car trains, double heading, helpers, switching, a "dark" RR! What a great layout!)...my second choice for a larger layout is the Elmira branch...both a single track lines. Obviously, these are my opinions and YMMV Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:36:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, Just came back from a four-day trip to Altoona. High point -- got lots of modeling photos including Slope, Alto, Rose, Homer, the hump at Homer, the foundation for the old East Altoona Passenger Station (right behind Homer). BUT, also just "took a drive" into the shop yards and drove around with complete freedom--I was surprised that no one stopped us but the employees we did see just waved to us. Also drove down deep into the old classification yards east of Red Bridge. Got a great look at the North run of the hump yard. The Sour: Made a detour on the way back to Boston to stop at "Steamtown". The facility is nice enough and the surrounding areas (with two large stations still standing) show promise for preservation. But, there are only two PRR boxcars in the collection. OK they have a different focus on local rail (although it's hard to see with the crazy quilt collection of motive power (Boston & Maine, Union Pacific Big Boy, Nickel Plate, Canadian Rail, etc.). The sour is this: I noticed that everyone I talked to from Park Rangers, volunteers and folks working on the locos had an antipathy toward anything PRR AND when I asked to see the K4, one of the workers said it was spread around all over the yard. He said "Look out that back window and you'll see the pile of junk we took off of it, and I think the boiler's over there somewhere." I know that some of our listers have done volunteer work on the K4. Can anyone give us a good idea of the real state of the #1361? When I asked the Ranger (a so-called rail historian) about the progress of the rebuild he said the contract was for completion by 2009 but they had better, more important and prestigious work in the meantime. I was pissed! Hoping I just caught people on a bad day, Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs _____________________________________________†\ / =ALTOONA= | / | \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | \____________________________________________ | \ | \| -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:39:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... From: Jerry Britton On 5/19/03 11:31 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known >> prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and >> equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via >> Pennsy email lists... > > Again, as above, I'm not sure if this is helpful or harmful...I find I get > bogged down sometimes in projects making sure that detail is just right, > because I have all the wonderful resources... That said, I'm a > prototype modeler, and not a big fan of freelancing and its wonderful to be > a PRR modeler. > I think it comes down to how well the freelancing was done. If the owner takes the time to create a legitimate reason for the railroad's existence it can take on a life of its own and be just as popular to operate. Case in points: Allen McClelland's V&O and Tony Koester's AM. I operate on a freelanced layout and enjoy it. However, each town and industry has a purpose. Car cards are used. It's not a jumble of "here's a space so let's put this industry here". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:41:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: dreaming of a PRR BRANCHLINE LAYOUT Re: [PRR] A question for --0-1362995496-1053358872=:83020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rick, When I'm finally get to construct my dream layout I'm planning to base it on the Little Miami and Cincinnati, Lebanon and Northern systems in Southwest Ohio. I'm most interested in focusing on the branchl;ine operations -- The Panhandle's 21-mile Springfield branch, part of Ohio's first cross-state rail line built by the Little Miami 1842-1846, that ran between Xenia & Springfield, the 10-mile DT&I line between Springfield the Panhandle's Columbus-Cincinnati Main at South Charleston; and the CL&N lines, the former narrow guaged CL&N and Dayton, :Lebanon and Cincinnati known as the Hghland Rouite because of its flood-proof access to Dayton and Cincinnati and its 14-mile branch, the Middletown and Cincinnati, that provided a direct connection to ARMCO Steel's Middletown works with the Columbus-Xenia-Cincinnati Main. While I forsee he mainlines as hidden trackage, I'm tempted to model MIddlletown Junction and a portion of the Columbus-Cincinnati Main in the narrow and scenic Little MIami river valley which recent postings have noted is narrow enought in spots to be bridged by Interstate 71. Another temptation is to model the CL&N's tunnel entrace into downtown Cincinnati. This would require an ambitious, multi-level layout that would encompass the dual nature of Lines West railroading. the open flatlands with rifleshot mainlines in the north and the riverside valley lines winding their way south to the Ohio. BTW, is there any interest in trying to get a group of modules to depict THE HILL at Madison, Ind., in time for the '04 PRRT&HS Cincy confab? Tom V. RickTipton@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/18/03 6:27:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 1 Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:21:57 -0700 From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: Thoughts on "operating", NMRA Chief Dispatcher's certificate Rick, I was delighted to hear a sane, modeler-oriented, discussion of train orders vs switchlists, done in a pleasant tone that encourages us to continue operating. That it came from an NMRA person is doubly surprising, but certainly says good things about you personally. John, Thanks for your kind comments. Really just passing along the message that operating is just one more way that model railroading is (take your pick) 1. The world's greatest hobby 2. Fun 3. A wonderful way for adults to play together 4. A good second best for a railfan since the "good" railroads are gone. 5. Not a bad way to pass time when not in pursuit of women . I take no real credit nor blame for being an NMRA member. Where I grew up (Dayton OH), the best modelers and layout builders and operators were all NMRA members. So as soon as I could put together the money, I became a life member. Since then, I've railroaded with NMRA people in Columbus, Palo Alto, Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, and (most of the last 30 years) in Louisville. Like any other group of people, I find most of them friendly, many helpful, and a few obnoxious beyond belief. I've learned a lot from all of them. Cleverly changing the subject, I would like to ask our listers some questions about operation: 1. Do you think there's anything about Pennsy modeling that makes operating the layout more (or less) likely that for other prototypes? In other words, does modeling the Pennsy give us a familiarity with the equipment, signaling practices, routes, etc. that makes it more likely a Pennsy layout will be operated by a group of Pennsy fans? One possible answer -- maybe operating cars and engines carrying the classes and road numbers of real equipment reinforces our enjoyment of the models. 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via Pennsy email lists... 3. Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around 5-star mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo Tower, or Newark Penn Station? Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines and still appeal to other Pennsy fans? 4. Can the "Bill Darnaby and Tony Koester" paradigm of midwestern railroading translate into a layout with interest to Pennsy fans? So much of PRR Lines West was essentially "grangers with keystones". Those of you who know me can guess that I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to choose one of several track plans designed around Panhandle lines in Ohio. I have no trouble at all with the principle that I must please myself, not just others. However, I'm giving a lot of thought to various alternatives that might entertain me -- and I can only build one at a time. Meantime -- get out there and run that layout if you've got one. Otherwise, go visit a friend who does. Switchin' cars is mighty satisfyin'... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West And hoping to be back in operation soon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1362995496-1053358872=:83020 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Rick,
 
   When I'm finally get to construct my dream layout I'm planning to base it on the Little Miami and Cincinnati, Lebanon and Northern systems in Southwest Ohio. I'm most interested in focusing on the branchl;ine operations -- The Panhandle's 21-mile Springfield branch, part of Ohio's first cross-state rail line built by the Little Miami 1842-1846, that ran between Xenia & Springfield, the 10-mile DT&I line between Springfield the Panhandle's Columbus-Cincinnati Main at South Charleston; and the CL&N lines, the former narrow guaged CL&N and Dayton, :Lebanon and Cincinnati known as the Hghland  Rouite because of its flood-proof access to Dayton and Cincinnati and its 14-mile branch, the Middletown and Cincinnati,  that provided a direct connection to ARMCO Steel's Middletown works with the Columbus-Xenia-Cincinnati Main.
  While I forsee he mainlines as hidden trackage, I'm tempted to model MIddlletown Junction and a portion of the Columbus-Cincinnati Main in the narrow and scenic Little MIami river valley which recent postings have noted is narrow enought in spots to be bridged by Interstate 71.
  Another temptation is to model the CL&N's tunnel entrace into downtown Cincinnati.
   This would require an ambitious, multi-level layout that would encompass the dual nature of Lines West railroading. the open flatlands with rifleshot mainlines in the north and the riverside valley lines winding  their way south to the Ohio.
   BTW, is there any interest in trying to get a group of modules to depict THE HILL at Madison, Ind., in time for the '04 PRRT&HS Cincy confab?
 
Tom V.

RickTipton@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/18/03 6:27:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:21:57 -0700
   From: "John Bruce" <j.bruce@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on "operating", NMRA Chief Dispatcher's certificate

Rick, I was delighted to hear a sane, modeler-oriented, discussion of train orders vs switchlists, done in a pleasant tone that encourages us to continue operating.  That it came from an NMRA person is doubly surprising, but certainly says good things about you personally.


John,

Thanks for your kind comments.  Really just passing along the message that operating is just one more way that model railroading is (take your pick)
1.  The world's greatest hobby
2.  Fun
3.  A wonderful way for adults to play together
4.  A good second best for a railfan since the "good" railroads are gone.
5.  Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1362995496-1053358872=:83020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:45:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... From: Jerry Britton On 5/19/03 11:31 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> 3. Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around >> 5-star mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo >> Tower, or Newark Penn Station? Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines >> and still appeal to other Pennsy fans? > > While the 5-star location can be a big thrill, its also a BIG headache. > For example, I have yet to see a layout that can actually support the > traffic density of the New York-Philly electrified mainline...In fact, I > believe that the 5-star stuff is WAY over modeled. It is MUCH easier to > support a maximum 2 track main, from the point of view of modeled > operations. Certainly, that is always my philosophy when designing a PRR > layout. Another issue here is that you when you choose to model some icon > of the PRR, you have to be careful taking liberties. We noted before that > the PRR layout in MR with the eastward grade on Horseshoe curve and a 3 > track steam era curve just seem "wrong" and are very disorienting. The > more I reflect on my layout plans the more I like the mix of ops potential. > When I designed the Eastern Region, I had NO interest in doing the Horseshoe Curve. My main design goal was to do the Harrisburg passenger station in critical detail. That's it! All I needed beyond that was a staging yard in each direction. Rather than tuck the staging behind the station, I opted to helix down at both ends into a double-ended staging yard. Then, after seeing many successful multi-level layouts in N scale, I considered an upper level. I love Cresson, and conjured up part of the eastern slope, ending at Cresson. Fine. But I had to get trains from one end of the main level to the other end of the upper level. First thought was a duckunder across the door, which I wanted to avoid. I ended up with a "nolix" perimeter helix rising up and behind the main level. This got me back to where I needed to start. Trains then helixed up to the upper level. Next question was "where on the eastern slope do I start?" The geography of my train room left trains exiting a helix and needing to cross an aisle. If I looped the track around the aisle, which there was room for, guess what? It made the Horseshoe Curve quite by accident! The HC is way overdone. I plan to do it as well as possible. But it was not a design goal. My upper level should be a railfan's paradise. The lower level should be a rivet-counter's paradise. And when nobody is around, I will have a long, four-track main to play on! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:54:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour From: Jerry Britton On 5/19/03 11:36 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote: > The Sour: Made a detour on the way back to Boston to stop at "Steamtown". > The facility is nice enough and the surrounding areas (with two large > stations still standing) show promise for preservation. But, there are only > two PRR boxcars in the collection. OK they have a different focus on local > rail (although it's hard to see with the crazy quilt collection of motive > power (Boston & Maine, Union Pacific Big Boy, Nickel Plate, Canadian Rail, > etc.). The sour is this: I noticed that everyone I talked to from Park > Rangers, volunteers and folks working on the locos had an antipathy toward > anything PRR AND when I asked to see the K4, one of the workers said it was > spread around all over the yard. He said "Look out that back window and > you'll see the pile of junk we took off of it, and I think the boiler's over > there somewhere." > My recollection from various conversations and news reports on the matter is that Steamtown came into being so late that the only steam readily available for acquisition was from Canadian roads that used steam later than US roads. Steamtown was an unfortunate result of one politician's pork barrel projects. There was no need for another rail museum in Pennsylvania. Strasburg is first rate. They have an awesome collection and historically have only been behind in interpretation. They are making huge gains there and will soon be, if not already, the only "worthwhile" railroad museum in the state. Altoona has no worthwhile collection, but has a great interpretive display, thanks to Peter Barton. Unfortunately, they are in dire straights, and nobody can say if they will pull out of the dive they are in. IF Altoona had gotten the PRR steam collection, the entire situation would be very different today. But they didn't, and that's all she wrote. What happens if Altoona folds? K4s #1361 is the primary concern, but they do have a few cars that would be nice to see at Strasburg...R50, private car Loretto, etc. Since Altoona is not part of the state system, I guess it would all go to open auction. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:03:25 -0500 I visited Steamtown just before the PRR convention. Had you taken the shop tour, which on the day I visited was given in the afternoon, you would have seen work being performed on the K4. Its boiler is currently lacking its front as its stay bolts clearly visible. The cab of the K4 was in the yard in back of the shop, painted up and numbered. The tender was also in the shop. Work was clearly being performed to restore the K4 during my visit. The two Pennsy freight cars appeared to have been restored to pristine condition. The Steam Town collection was originally acquired by Nelson Blount. When he passed away, the collection was eventually bought by the National Parks Service and moved to Scranton. I would have preferred that the $30-40,000,000 that was spent at Steam Town be allocated to something far more meaningful places and/or projects, such as an East Broad Top restoration, aid to the Altoona Railroaders Museum, or the Strasburg Museum, but such is the way of Federal pork barrel projects. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen H. Prosser [mailto:sprosser@attbi.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 10:36 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour Dear Listers, Just came back from a four-day trip to Altoona. High point -- got lots of modeling photos including Slope, Alto, Rose, Homer, the hump at Homer, the foundation for the old East Altoona Passenger Station (right behind Homer). BUT, also just "took a drive" into the shop yards and drove around with complete freedom--I was surprised that no one stopped us but the employees we did see just waved to us. Also drove down deep into the old classification yards east of Red Bridge. Got a great look at the North run of the hump yard. The Sour: Made a detour on the way back to Boston to stop at "Steamtown". The facility is nice enough and the surrounding areas (with two large stations still standing) show promise for preservation. But, there are only two PRR boxcars in the collection. OK they have a different focus on local rail (although it's hard to see with the crazy quilt collection of motive power (Boston & Maine, Union Pacific Big Boy, Nickel Plate, Canadian Rail, etc.). The sour is this: I noticed that everyone I talked to from Park Rangers, volunteers and folks working on the locos had an antipathy toward anything PRR AND when I asked to see the K4, one of the workers said it was spread around all over the yard. He said "Look out that back window and you'll see the pile of junk we took off of it, and I think the boiler's over there somewhere." I know that some of our listers have done volunteer work on the K4. Can anyone give us a good idea of the real state of the #1361? When I asked the Ranger (a so-called rail historian) about the progress of the rebuild he said the contract was for completion by 2009 but they had better, more important and prestigious work in the meantime. I was pissed! Hoping I just caught people on a bad day, Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs _____________________________________________?\ / =ALTOONA= | / | \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | \____________________________________________ | \ | \| -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:08:41 +0000 I don'think having the PRR collection at Altoona would have made much impact at all. It is just too far from the population centers and too far off the interstates to get any kind of visitor except the hard core PRR fan. The secret of Strasburg also lies in what the area has to offer for famalies who will tolerate a visit by the feroequinoligist. Strasburg can be done as a day trip for most people from Trenton to Washington DC. Altoona can't. The general public not interested in trains gives very high marks to Steamtown by the way. The National Park Service treats it as a historic cite and does interprative efforts which the average non railfan finds informative. Should it have been built? Another question entirely. > On 5/19/03 11:36 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote: > > > The Sour: Made a detour on the way back to Boston to stop at "Steamtown". > > The facility is nice enough and the surrounding areas (with two large > > stations still standing) show promise for preservation. But, there are only > > two PRR boxcars in the collection. OK they have a different focus on local > > rail (although it's hard to see with the crazy quilt collection of motive > > power (Boston & Maine, Union Pacific Big Boy, Nickel Plate, Canadian Rail, > > etc.). The sour is this: I noticed that everyone I talked to from Park > > Rangers, volunteers and folks working on the locos had an antipathy toward > > anything PRR AND when I asked to see the K4, one of the workers said it was > > spread around all over the yard. He said "Look out that back window and > > you'll see the pile of junk we took off of it, and I think the boiler's over > > there somewhere." > > > My recollection from various conversations and news reports on the matter is > that Steamtown came into being so late that the only steam readily available > for acquisition was from Canadian roads that used steam later than US roads. > > Steamtown was an unfortunate result of one politician's pork barrel > projects. There was no need for another rail museum in Pennsylvania. > > Strasburg is first rate. They have an awesome collection and historically > have only been behind in interpretation. They are making huge gains there > and will soon be, if not already, the only "worthwhile" railroad museum in > the state. > > Altoona has no worthwhile collection, but has a great interpretive display, > thanks to Peter Barton. Unfortunately, they are in dire straights, and > nobody can say if they will pull out of the dive they are in. > > IF Altoona had gotten the PRR steam collection, the entire situation would > be very different today. But they didn't, and that's all she wrote. > > What happens if Altoona folds? K4s #1361 is the primary concern, but they do > have a few cars that would be nice to see at Strasburg...R50, private car > Loretto, etc. Since Altoona is not part of the state system, I guess it > would all go to open auction. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: dreaming of a PRR BRANCHLINE LAYOUT Re: [PRR] A question for Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:18:18 +0000 a direct connection to ARMCO Steel's Middletown works > with the Columbus-Xenia-Cincinnati Main I remember vividly after Project 600 was built and the old PRR yard was incorporated into the mill that every morning I would be held up trying to get into the plant by a single SD-7 pulling a string of cars into the plant around a very tight radius curve at about 1mph. I would time my entry so I could be first in line and watch the wheel slip on the engine. I don't ever recall it not making it but it always looked like it would stall at any second. The new yard was built at a right angle to the main line so it took trains a long time to get into and out of the yard there. I rummaged through the couple of buildings left in the old yard but never found anything PRR related left behind. I did get to crawl all over the N&W Y-3 that was there for back up steam generation. They didn't use it once in my time there from 1968-1972. Eventually it wound up out here at Union, Illinois. > Rick, > > When I'm finally get to construct my dream layout I'm planning to base it on > the Little Miami and Cincinnati, Lebanon and Northern systems in Southwest Ohio. > I'm most interested in focusing on the branchl;ine operations -- The Panhandle's > 21-mile Springfield branch, part of Ohio's first cross-state rail line built by > the Little Miami 1842-1846, that ran between Xenia & Springfield, the 10-mile > DT&I line between Springfield the Panhandle's Columbus-Cincinnati Main at South > Charleston; and the CL&N lines, the former narrow guaged CL&N and Dayton, > :Lebanon and Cincinnati known as the Hghland Rouite because of its flood-proof > access to Dayton and Cincinnati and its 14-mile branch, the Middletown and > Cincinnati, that provided a direct connection to ARMCO Steel's Middletown works > with the Columbus-Xenia-Cincinnati Main. > While I forsee he mainlines as hidden trackage, I'm tempted to model > MIddlletown Junction and a portion of the Columbus-Cincinnati Main in the narrow > and scenic Little MIami river valley which recent postings have noted is narrow > enought in spots to be bridged by Interstate 71. > Another temptation is to model the CL&N's tunnel entrace into downtown > Cincinnati. > This would require an ambitious, multi-level layout that would encompass the > dual nature of Lines West railroading. the open flatlands with rifleshot > mainlines in the north and the riverside valley lines winding their way south > to the Ohio. > BTW, is there any interest in trying to get a group of modules to depict THE > HILL at Madison, Ind., in time for the '04 PRRT&HS Cincy confab? > > Tom V. > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/18/03 6:27:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:21:57 -0700 > From: "John Bruce" > Subject: Re: Thoughts on "operating", NMRA Chief Dispatcher's certificate > > Rick, I was delighted to hear a sane, modeler-oriented, discussion of train > orders vs switchlists, done in a pleasant tone that encourages us to continue > operating. That it came from an NMRA person is doubly surprising, but certainly > says good things about you personally. > > > John, > > Thanks for your kind comments. Really just passing along the message that > operating is just one more way that model railroading is (take your pick) > 1. The world's greatest hobby > 2. Fun > 3. A wonderful way for adults to play together > 4. A good second best for a railfan since the "good" railroads are gone. > 5. Not a bad way to pass time when not in pursuit of women . > > I take no real credit nor blame for being an NMRA member. Where I grew up > (Dayton OH), the best modelers and layout builders and operators were all NMRA > members. So as soon as I could put together the money, I became a life member. > Since then, I've railroaded with NMRA people in Columbus, Palo Alto, Cincinnati, > Fort Wayne, and (most of the last 30 years) in Louisville. Like any other group > of people, I find most of them friendly, many helpful, and a few obnoxious > beyond belief. I've learned a lot from all of them. > > Cleverly changing the subject, I would like to ask our listers some questions > about operation: > > 1. Do you think there's anything about Pennsy modeling that makes operating the > layout more (or less) likely that for other prototypes? In other words, does > modeling the Pennsy give us a familiarity with the equipment, signaling > practices, routes, etc. that makes it more likely a Pennsy layout will be > operated by a group of Pennsy fans? One possible answer -- maybe operating cars > and engines carrying the classes and road numbers of real equipment reinforces > our enjoyment of the models. > > 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known > prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and equipment > that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via Pennsy email > lists... > > 3. Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around 5-star > mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo Tower, or Newark > Penn Station? Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines and still appeal to > other Pennsy fans? > > 4. Can the "Bill Darnaby and Tony Koester" paradigm of midwestern railroading > translate into a layout with interest to Pennsy fans? So much of PRR Lines West > was essentially "grangers with keystones". > > Those of you who know me can guess that I'm asking these questions because I'm > trying to choose one of several track plans designed around Panhandle lines in > Ohio. I have no trouble at all with the principle that I must please myself, > not just others. However, I'm giving a lot of thought to various alternatives > that might entertain me -- and I can only build one at a time. > > Meantime -- get out there and run that layout if you've got one. Otherwise, go > visit a friend who does. Switchin' cars is mighty satisfyin'... > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > And hoping to be back in operation soon > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:51:53 -0700 (PDT) From: m repka Subject: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown A shame! Have been to Steamtown one time when it was in Vermont, and one time in Scranton, about 2 years after it opened. As a museum it is fair, but you can see the federal influence of " throw a bunch of money at it"! I can not recall, why did the K-4 go to Steamtown instead of sending it to Strasburg? If it had gone to Strasburg it would be rebuilt by now, and I would have been glad to send a few bucks that way! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:01:28 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour Re: What happens if Altoona folds?...... Since Altoona is not part of the state system, I guess it would all go to open auction. If the Altoona Museum is a bona fide 501(c)(3) non-profit they, as I recall from my historic sites management classes, are required to have a deaccessioning statement in their by-laws specifying that their possessions go to a like organization (with or without monetary consideration). Such an organization would be the Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:04:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown From: Jerry Britton On 5/19/03 12:51 PM, m repka (mikerepka@yahoo.com) wrote: > I can not recall, why did the K-4 go to Steamtown > instead of sending it to Strasburg? I believe it was a gift direct from the PRR to Altoona and was never "on the market". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:28:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown --- Jerry Britton wrote: > On 5/19/03 12:51 PM, m repka (mikerepka@yahoo.com) wrote: > > > I can not recall, why did the K-4 go to Steamtown > > instead of sending it to Strasburg? > > I believe it was a gift direct from the PRR to Altoona and was > never "on the > market". Pardon me, Jerry, but I think you misread the question. I took it as "When the K-4 needed repair, why did it go to Steamtown rather than Strasburg?". My understanding, perhaps defective, has been that the K-4 is "in the shop" at Steamtown, not "on the books" at Steamtown. Or did it start out one way and end up going another? I don't know the answer to that question, nor do I wish to imply anything by raising it. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:32:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown From: Jerry Britton On 5/19/03 1:28 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > --- Jerry Britton wrote: >> On 5/19/03 12:51 PM, m repka (mikerepka@yahoo.com) wrote: >> >>> I can not recall, why did the K-4 go to Steamtown >>> instead of sending it to Strasburg? >> >> I believe it was a gift direct from the PRR to Altoona and was >> never "on the >> market". > > Pardon me, Jerry, but I think you misread the question. I took it as > "When the K-4 needed repair, why did it go to Steamtown rather than > Strasburg?". My understanding, perhaps defective, has been that the > K-4 is "in the shop" at Steamtown, not "on the books" at Steamtown. > > Or did it start out one way and end up going another? > > I don't know the answer to that question, nor do I wish to imply > anything by raising it. You're correct. I read it as "why did the K4 go to Altoona instead of Strasburg" with regards to ownership. My mistake. Sorry. As for the repair, I seem to recall that Strasburg was too busy to do the work. Again, that is a recollection. It's also possible that with Strasburg having so much PRR stuff already that Altoona thought that would pull visitors away from Altoona? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:33:36 -0400 Jerry & list, The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at Horseshoe Curve. I do not recall the sequence of events that lead to it's being placed in railfan service. But, I believe it was still City of Altoona property via the Railroaders Museum. After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs only. To the best of my knowledge Steamtown does NOT own the locomotive, but was merely contracted to provide shop facilities for the repair (which by now has turned into a major total rebuild). Please correct me if I am wrong about this. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:04 PM To: m repka; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown On 5/19/03 12:51 PM, m repka (mikerepka@yahoo.com) wrote: > I can not recall, why did the K-4 go to Steamtown > instead of sending it to Strasburg? I believe it was a gift direct from the PRR to Altoona and was never "on the market". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:51:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... Jerry comments about freelancing: >I think it comes down to how well the freelancing was done. If the owner >takes the time to create a legitimate reason for the railroad's existence it >can take on a life of its own and be just as popular to operate. Case in >points: Allen McClelland's V&O and Tony Koester's AM. While I agree with these points and the subsequent points Jerry makes about freelancing (I operate on a "protofreelanced RR) it is interesting to note that Tony K has gone proto and Bill Darnaby has said publically that if he were to start today, he would go proto too. One reason that the AM was so convincing (at least in Tony's opinion) was that it was the used NKP motive power, C&O buildings etc, and therefore, was really "proto in disguise" Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:11:06 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E32.04874D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; I can't speak to all the questions, but I am modeling a segment of the PRR's Mon Branch in the early 60's. All my equipment is being built for that purpose. I am not an elitist, but chose this as my interest area. When I eventually complete all the aspects of the RR that I can, I will hope it a fairly faithful rendition of what I chose, including its operations. I have to learn a great deal yet on signalling on this part of the railroad, but I am getting a decent understanding of operations on this part of the Pennsy. I certainly find myself to have been extremely fortunate to have been privy to more info on this subject that most folks have been. I will just have to get used to the idea of doing things the way they did them, and not worry about my convenience or desires. It really doesn't bother me, if I were freelancing I would have made that choice correctly, too. That being said, life is compromise. I can't model a truly scale piece of reality due to space constraints. However, I am trying to duplicate a compressed form of the trackplan in that area. And it's surroundings. But finally to get to my point (whew, you say). I had a gent over recently who "critiqued" my plan for me (unasked) and told me that my operations would be much better if I, "x, y, and z....(changed my track plan, crossover locations, etc.)" I thought it was quite interesting, as my track plan and operation is what was there. While I have compromised on length, I have not on crossover locations, etc. So, perhaps prototyping does have its limitations, after all. And one can still be criticized for modeling the prototype, too. For those that model freelanced stuff, breath a heavy sigh of relief, without regret. I, for one, certainly will not ever criticize your choice. There is no right answer to this, folks. Have a great week, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 10:51 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... Jerry comments about freelancing: >I think it comes down to how well the freelancing was done. If the owner >takes the time to create a legitimate reason for the railroad's existence it >can take on a life of its own and be just as popular to operate. Case in >points: Allen McClelland's V&O and Tony Koester's AM. While I agree with these points and the subsequent points Jerry makes about freelancing (I operate on a "protofreelanced RR) it is interesting to note that Tony K has gone proto and Bill Darnaby has said publically that if he were to start today, he would go proto too. One reason that the AM was so convincing (at least in Tony's opinion) was that it was the used NKP motive power, C&O buildings etc, and therefore, was really "proto in disguise" Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E32.04874D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers...

Hi all;
        I can't = speak to all the questions, but I am modeling a segment of the PRR's = Mon Branch in the early 60's.  All my equipment is being built for = that purpose.  I am not an elitist, but chose this as my interest = area.  When I eventually complete all the aspects of the RR that I = can, I will hope it a fairly faithful rendition of what I chose, = including its operations.  I have to learn a great deal yet on = signalling on this part of the railroad, but I am getting a decent = understanding of operations on this part of the Pennsy.  I = certainly find myself to have been extremely fortunate to have been = privy to more info on this subject that most folks have been.  I = will just have to get used to the idea of doing things the way they did = them, and not worry about my convenience or desires.  It really = doesn't bother me, if I were freelancing I would have made that choice = correctly, too.

        That being = said, life is compromise.  I can't model a truly scale piece of = reality due to space constraints.  However, I am trying to = duplicate a compressed form of the trackplan in that area.  And = it's surroundings.  But finally to get to my point (whew, you = say).  I had a gent over recently who "critiqued" my = plan for me (unasked) and told me that my operations would be much = better if I, "x, y, and z....(changed my track plan, crossover = locations, etc.)"  I thought it was quite interesting, as my = track plan and operation is what was there.  While I have = compromised on length, I have not on crossover locations, etc.  = So, perhaps prototyping does have its limitations, after all. And one = can still be criticized for modeling the prototype, too.  For = those that model freelanced stuff, breath a heavy sigh of relief, = without regret.  I, for one, certainly will not ever criticize = your choice.  There is no right answer to this, folks.

Have a great week,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 10:51 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy = modelers...


Jerry comments about freelancing:
>I think it comes down to how well the = freelancing was done. If the owner
>takes the time to create a legitimate reason for = the railroad's existence it
>can take on a life of its own and be just as = popular to operate. Case in
>points: Allen McClelland's V&O and Tony = Koester's AM.

While I agree with these points and the subsequent = points Jerry makes about
freelancing (I operate on a "protofreelanced = RR) it is interesting to note
that Tony K has gone proto and Bill Darnaby has said = publically that if he
were to start today, he would go proto too.  = One reason that the AM was so
convincing (at least in Tony's opinion) was that it = was the used NKP motive
power, C&O buildings etc, and therefore, was = really "proto in disguise" <G>

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to = be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;    __
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   /  \
  = __<+--+>________________\__/___   = ____________________________________
 |- ______/ = O        O \_______ -| | __  = __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ = |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ = | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_____________________________\|_|______________________= ______________|
 | O--O     \0  = 0  0  0/    O--O |   = 0-0-0           &= nbsp;            = 0-0-0



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E32.04874D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:32:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 --0-1339216650-1053369176=:78046 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know if and when K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 ever received front-end modernization with cast (I know it's not really cast, but that's what everybody seems to call it) pilot, drop coupler, etc? Any photographic evidence? Last photo's I have of each from 1940 and 1939 respectively show slatted pilot but the mechanical lubricator has been installed. Thanks in advance. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1339216650-1053369176=:78046 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Does anyone know if and when K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 ever received front-end modernization with cast (I know it's not really cast, but that's what everybody seems to call it) pilot, drop coupler, etc?  Any photographic evidence?  Last photo's I have of each from 1940 and 1939 respectively show slatted pilot but the mechanical lubricator has been installed. Thanks in advance. 
 
Ron 

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1339216650-1053369176=:78046-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 Does anyone know if and when K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 ever received front-end modernization with cast (I know it's not really cast, but that's what everybody seems to call it) pilot, drop coupler, etc? Any photographic evidence? Last photo's I have of each from 1940 and 1939 respectively show slatted pilot but the mechanical lubricator has been installed. Thanks in advance. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 Ron, I take it you looked at my K4 Photo pages for those particular K4s numbers? If not, those dates you stae are the same as what is on those pages. I do have many other K4s pics in my collection and most likely, but no guarantee, have other views of 1517 and 5464. I will check later today. Did those 2 K4s's receive the front end "beauty treatment" aka Post War Modernization, Cast Pilot etc etc. Odds are, Yes, but photo evidence is what you ask for. I will try to come thru for you.....Later, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 Ron, I take it you looked at my K4 Photo pages for those particular K4s numbers? If not, those dates you stae are the same as what is on those pages. I do have many other K4s pics in my collection and most likely, but no guarantee, have other views of 1517 and 5464. I will check later today. Did those 2 K4s's receive the front end "beauty treatment" aka Post War Modernization, Cast Pilot etc etc. Odds are, Yes, but photo evidence is what you ask for. I will try to come thru for you.....Later, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:58:21 -0400 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/k4.htm -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Burnley, Charles Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:34 PM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Jerry & list, The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at Horseshoe Curve. I do not recall the sequence of events that lead to it's being placed in railfan service. But, I believe it was still City of Altoona property via the Railroaders Museum. After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs only. To the best of my knowledge Steamtown does NOT own the locomotive, but was merely contracted to provide shop facilities for the repair (which by now has turned into a major total rebuild). Please correct me if I am wrong about this. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:04 PM To: m repka; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown On 5/19/03 12:51 PM, m repka (mikerepka@yahoo.com) wrote: > I can not recall, why did the K-4 go to Steamtown > instead of sending it to Strasburg? I believe it was a gift direct from the PRR to Altoona and was never "on the market". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:17:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown --0-1332647380-1053371866=:84823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Burnley, Charles" wrote: Jerry & list, The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at Horseshoe Curve. >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, ready to fire up and steam away. Was this a myth?<<<< After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs >>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this story. Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described above with a subsequent disastor?<<< Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1332647380-1053371866=:84823 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


"Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com> wrote:

Jerry & list,

The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at
Horseshoe Curve.

 >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, ready to fire up and steam away.  Was this a myth?<<<<

After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs

>>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this story.  Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described above with a subsequent disastor?<<<

Ron

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1332647380-1053371866=:84823-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:18:10 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... Rick & folks, Hmmm, your commentary and questions cover a lot of territory, and give lots of food for thought. One of your questions that I found particularly interesting is whether a Pennsy layout has to be a 'five star' mainline scenario in order to really appeal to other Pennsy fans. I'm assuming that means whether it such an operation is necessary to capture the PRR feel. Personally, I don't think so at all. Maybe it's only me and a few strays who think the same way, but I think the Pennsy has a feel all it's own, whether you encountered it in Indiana, New Jersey or on the Middle Division. Whenever I saw, or now see in model form, a Pennsy depot with it's trademark station nane in red and gold, my mind's already in gear. Toss in position lights, a tower and section house, maybe a freight house, and things really begin to come together. Keystone whistle posts, a stone culvert, perhaps an X29 or roundtop box car spotted nearby and it becomes hard to miss. I feel there's any number of contenders for a fine Pennsy operation, none of them big time. How about Cadillac, Mi with North Yard, the joint 'belt line' with the AA and the Northern Arrow in season?Be sure to have the Grand Rapids-Cadillac local passenger and freight jobs still running. Toss in the through freight, maybe an ore extra, a transfer run and some local industrial switching and you've got a pretty good session lined up already. How's about the Camden and Amboy from north of Camden to maybe Bordentown? That gives a person commuters, gas electrics, local freights, a through freight and the Nellie Bly at a miminum. An inner city switching line ala Philley or Baltimore would stave off boredom for a looong time. So would the Northern Central between say Sunbury and Williamsport. And I've never heard of anyone doing the line from say Logansport to Kokomo or so, which would provide some fine passenger operations in the 1950's complete with N&W, L&N and Southern lines through cars, not to mention through freights and granger switching. No four track mains anywhere in t hat mix. Just a few quick notions. Regards, Barry Peltier ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÅ¢¶¬²+-jwÂ+a¶¬–+-þ™^jǯŠÈ­†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(§÷( !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:26:58 -0500 The K4 is still owned by Altoona, and went to Steamtown somewhere around 1996 or 1997. It was disassembled at the time and was going through it's second restoration since being removed from Horseshoe Curve. The restoration, being done in part of Conrail's shop, had come to a halt for reasons I'm not aware of. Conrail wanted it out of their way, so the Altoona museum folks contracted with Steamtown to restore it. It went to Steamtown in many many pieces. Steamtown evaluated what needed to be done and hired a project manager to perform and oversee the work. I don't know why their regular shop forces were not given the work. The project has become far more involved since the initial evaluation greatly extending the time required for completion. The most recent estimate I am aware of for a completion date was spring 2004. That may have changed based on the need for some additional fire box work that was found a couple of months ago. > The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at > Horseshoe Curve. > I do not recall the sequence of events that lead to it's being placed in > railfan service. > But, I believe it was still City of Altoona property via the Railroaders > Museum. After the > disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for > repairs only. > To the best of my knowledge Steamtown does NOT own the locomotive, but was > merely contracted > to provide shop facilities for the repair (which by now has turned into a > major total rebuild). > Please correct me if I am wrong about this. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:40:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown --0-1696438816-1053373253=:24135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List and all Having now checked out the K-4 restoration project web site thanks to Gregory's reference post it appears that my questions are answered. Ron Ronald Di Orio wrote: "Burnley, Charles" wrote: Jerry & list, The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at Horseshoe Curve. >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, ready to fire up and steam away. Was this a myth?<<<< After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs >>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this story. Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described above with a subsequent disastor?<<< Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1696438816-1053373253=:24135 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
List and all
 
Having now checked out the K-4 restoration project web site thanks to Gregory's reference post it appears that my questions are answered.
 
Ron

Ronald Di Orio <prr2249@yahoo.com> wrote:


"Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com> wrote:

Jerry & list,

The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at
Horseshoe Curve.

 >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, ready to fire up and steam away.  Was this a myth?<<<<

After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs

>>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this story.  Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described above with a subsequent disastor?<<<

Ron

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1696438816-1053373253=:24135-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:58:20 -0400 Ron, 1361 when donated to Altoona at the Curve was overhauled, in that, it was in operable condition. It was not, however, given any heavy class repairs. The ravages of time and weather at the Curve neccesitated a major overhaul before she was put in railfan service. Urban legend has it that the last fan trip run by the 1361 was to York, Pa. I don't remember the year. On the return trip to Altoona The "crew" simply forgot (or did not even know) to thoroughly lubricate the driving wheel axle bearings, and as a result, the damage done, rendered the locomotive inoperable. Hence, the need for the second overhaul at Steamtown. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:18 PM To: Burnley, Charles; 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown "Burnley, Charles" wrote: Jerry & list, The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at Horseshoe Curve. >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, ready to fire up and steam away. Was this a myth?<<<< After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs >>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this story. Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described above with a subsequent disastor?<<< Ron _____ Do you Yahoo!? HYPERLINK "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com"The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:00:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead --part1_21.2f77fbfd.2bfa91ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/19/03 11:32:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Cherrypicking in general is the downfall of newbie yardmasters. I sound > like > a broken record on other lists on the subject,but use the Grand Shove or > the > Grand Pull (term I picked up from a letter to the editor in the > Dispatchers's > Office from Tony Koester, and a procedure confirmed by modelers who have > prototype job experience). Pull the whole track and begin sorting the way > the > prototype does. Then pull the next. You will get a yard sorted much more > quickly. This presupposes you have designed the layout with an adequate > yard lead. If you are just now designing the layout, then plan in that > adequate yard lead. > > Bob Zoeller > That's a big yes on "no cherry-picking" -- that's what got me the first time, and I agree wholeheartedly that it's a great way to tie up the world. More monstrous yet (and perhaps at the risk of making some folks unhappy) I've been a guest on several layouts where the yardmaster is handed a worklist that essentially says "pull these cars from these tracks and local industries and send out train 1". Then the next worklist says "pull these cars from the same tracks and local industries and send out train 2" -- in other words, the operating paper institutionalizes cherry picking to get each train out. In one case, by the time I as yardmaster got to train 3, I asked my "native guide" (a regular operator on that layout) to hand me all the yard's work orders at once, and I started classifying yard tracks by the eventual routing of cars. Then we went 'round to the industries once and collected up all the cars to go (note that this could have been done by a second crew if we'd had one). The regular op/guide didn't understand me quite at first, but after we had fired off train 3 and train 4 in short order, the light bulb went on in his head and he got the point. Being a polite guest, I didn't take this any further, so I don't know if the host is still cherry picking by train or not. On another occasion, I was handed similar paperwork, except output from Ship It. Now we all know that if Ship It is set up correctly, the work orders will simply cause us to classify inbounds on the appropriate tracks, until the corresponding train leaves. However, this was one of those cases when some cars didn't arrive as planned, and thus the yard crew could only forward those cars on hand. As the session proceeded to fall apart, we set up some ad hoc classifications by track, at the cost of looking ahead in the switch lists to dope out car routings. Bob, you mention the need for an adequate yard lead, to keep switching work from blocking the main line. There seems to be more than one definition of yard lead, but my normal definition would say that one part of the lead is long enough to hold a full length train as it's built up or torn down. Then an extension of that called the drill track gives the switcher room to pull out cuts and then classify them into other tracks alongside. The length of that drill track might be: 1. As long as a train (one pull does it all) 2. Half as long as a train (two pulls to classify a train) 3. A third as long (three pulls to classify a train) 4. As long as most of the classification tracks (one pull to set a cut into a new train) 5. At least half as long as the longest class track (two pulls to set a cut into a new train) 6. Some other number. Clearly, a longer drill track up to the length of a train makes yard work more efficient -- but on model railroads, this may be compromised by lack of room, because you must find about two train lengths end to end. I tend to think that arrival/departure on a full length track is very high priority, and that a drill track at least half that long is good policy -- if you can fit it in. One of the problems I'm finding in designing a new layout is that one of my operators is pushing for train length of 30 cars or more. That means that total yard lead length needs to be 45 cars or more, for a Columbus yard upwards of 30 feet in length. This eats space like crazy. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_21.2f77fbfd.2bfa91ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/19/03 11:32:34 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Cherrypicking in general is the= downfall of newbie yardmasters.  I sound like
a broken record on other lists on the subject,but use the Grand Shove or the=
Grand Pull (term I picked up from a letter to the editor in the Dispatchers'= s
Office from Tony Koester, and a procedure confirmed by modelers who have prototype job experience). Pull the whole track and begin sorting the way th= e
prototype does.  Then pull the next.  You will get a yard sorted m= uch more
quickly.   This presupposes you have designed the layout with an a= dequate
yard lead.  If you are just now designing the layout, then plan in that=
adequate yard lead.

Bob Zoeller


That's a big yes on "no cherry-picking" -- that's what got me the first time= , and I agree wholeheartedly that it's a great way to tie up the world.

More monstrous yet (and perhaps at the risk of making some folks unhappy) I'= ve been a guest on several layouts where the yardmaster is handed a worklist= that essentially says "pull these cars from these tracks and local industri= es and send out train 1".  Then the next worklist says "pull these cars= from the same tracks and local industries and send out train 2" -- in other= words, the operating paper institutionalizes cherry picking  to get ea= ch train out.

In one case, by the time I as yardmaster got to train 3, I asked my "native=20= guide" (a regular operator on that layout) to hand me all the yard's work or= ders at once, and I started classifying yard tracks by the eventual routing=20= of cars.  Then we went 'round to the industries once and collected up a= ll the cars to go (note that this could have been done by a second crew if w= e'd had one).  The regular op/guide didn't understand me quite at first= , but after we had fired off train 3 and train 4 in short order, the light b= ulb went on in his head and he got the point.  Being a polite guest, I=20= didn't take this any further, so I don't know if the host is still cherry pi= cking by train or not.

On another occasion, I was handed similar paperwork, except output from Ship= It.  Now we all know that if Ship It is set up correctly, the work ord= ers will simply cause us to classify inbounds on the appropriate tracks, unt= il the corresponding train leaves.  However, this was one of those case= s when some cars didn't arrive as planned, and thus the yard crew could only= forward those cars on hand.  As the session proceeded to fall apart, w= e set up some ad hoc classifications by track, at the cost of looking ahead=20= in the switch lists to dope out car routings.

Bob, you mention the need for an adequate yard lead, to keep switching work=20= from blocking the main line.  There seems to be more than one definitio= n of yard lead, but my normal definition would say that one part of the lead= is long enough to hold a full length train as it's built up or torn down.&n= bsp; Then an extension of that called the drill track gives the switcher roo= m to pull out cuts and then classify them into other tracks alongside. = The length of that drill track might be:
1.  As long as a train (one pull does it all)
2.  Half as long as a train (two pulls to classify a train)
3.  A third as long (three pulls to classify a train)
4.  As long as most of the classification tracks (one pull to set a cut= into a new train)
5.  At least half as long as the longest class track (two pulls to set=20= a cut into a new train)
6.  Some other number.

Clearly, a longer drill track up to the length of a train makes yard work mo= re efficient -- but on model railroads, this may be compromised by lack of r= oom, because you must find about two train lengths end to end.  I tend=20= to think that arrival/departure on a full length track is very high priority= , and that a drill track at least half that long is good policy -- if you ca= n fit it in.

One of the problems I'm finding in designing a new layout is that one of my=20= operators is pushing for train length of 30 cars or more.  That means t= hat total yard lead length needs to be 45 cars or more, for a Columbus yard=20= upwards of 30 feet in length.  This eats space like crazy.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_21.2f77fbfd.2bfa91ef_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown --0-1917027216-1053375010=:50209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Charles Thanks for the clarifying info. Ron "Burnley, Charles" wrote: Ron, 1361 when donated to Altoona at the Curve was overhauled, in that, it was in operable condition. It was not, however, given any heavy class repairs. The ravages of time and weather at the Curve neccesitated a major overhaul before she was put in railfan service. Urban legend has it that the last fan trip run by the 1361 was to York, Pa. I don't remember the year. On the return trip to Altoona The "crew" simply forgot (or did not even know) to thoroughly lubricate the driving wheel axle bearings, and as a result, the damage done, rendered the locomotive inoperable. Hence, the need for the second overhaul at Steamtown. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:18 PM To: Burnley, Charles; 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown "Burnley, Charles" wrote: Jerry & list, The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at Horseshoe Curve. >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, ready to fire up and steam away. Was this a myth?<<<< After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to Steamtown for repairs >>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this story. Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described above with a subsequent disastor?<<< Ron _____ Do you Yahoo!? HYPERLINK "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com"The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1917027216-1053375010=:50209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Charles
 
Thanks for the clarifying info.
 
Ron

"Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com> wrote:
Ron,

1361 when donated to Altoona at the Curve was overhauled, in that, it was in
operable condition. It was not, however,
given any heavy class repairs. The ravages of time and weather at the Curve
neccesitated a major overhaul before
she was put in railfan service.

Urban legend has it that the last fan trip run by the 1361 was to York, Pa.
I don't remember
the year. On the return trip to Altoona The "crew" simply forgot (or did not
even know) to thoroughly
lubricate the driving wheel axle bearings, and as a result, the damage done,
rendered the locomotive inoperable.
Hence, the need for the second overhaul at Steamtown.

Buzz


-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:18 PM
To: Burnley, Charles; 'prr-talk@dsop.com'
Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown



The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1917027216-1053375010=:50209-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:14:25 +0000 > Urban legend has it that the last fan trip run by the 1361 was to York, Pa. > I don't remember > the year. On the return trip to Altoona The "crew" simply forgot (or did not > even know) to thoroughly > lubricate the driving wheel axle bearings, Didn't subsequent testing prove that much of the locomotive was worn out also. Wasn't the entire crown sheet and firebox suspect and replaced? The rebuild should provide a locomotive that is in essence totaly rebuilt that should be operational for many years with proper care. > Ron, > > 1361 when donated to Altoona at the Curve was overhauled, in that, it was in > operable condition. It was not, however, > given any heavy class repairs. The ravages of time and weather at the Curve > neccesitated a major overhaul before > she was put in railfan service. > > Urban legend has it that the last fan trip run by the 1361 was to York, Pa. > I don't remember > the year. On the return trip to Altoona The "crew" simply forgot (or did not > even know) to thoroughly > lubricate the driving wheel axle bearings, and as a result, the damage done, > rendered the locomotive inoperable. > Hence, the need for the second overhaul at Steamtown. > > Buzz > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:18 PM > To: Burnley, Charles; 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown > > > > > > "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > Jerry & list, > > The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at > Horseshoe Curve. > > >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was > "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, > ready to fire up and steam away. Was this a myth?<<<< > > After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to > Steamtown for repairs > > >>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this > story. Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described > above with a subsequent disastor?<<< > > Ron > > > > _____ > > Do you Yahoo!? > HYPERLINK > "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com"The New > Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > > **************************************************************************** > This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, > privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or > its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of > the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient > of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, > copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments > to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete > the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy > expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements > and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email > communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such > communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any > damages or other liability so arising. > **************************************************************************** > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:19:28 -0400 List Dudes- ndbprr@att.net said: I don't know if anyone was aware of this, but Amtrak is seriously looking into building a station at Paradise to interchange passengers with the Strasburg Railroad. This could increase commerce and vistors to both the SRR and museum. From what i've heard trains would originate from Philadelphia or Harrisburg. Have a train to Paradise in the morning, and a return trip that night. If the station ever appears, it would be an interesting photo op. -John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:29:08 -0400 Ron and list, I was only 5 at the time but, haering recent stories, i know one of the problems was that the electric generator for the headlights, markerlights, etc. wasn't working. This i know as a fact because members of the Miniature railroad club of york were on the "York K4 Crew". Two members went to the club and pulled one of our auxiallary power supplies to fix the task. A power cord was relayed from the supply car, over the tender, and to the engine. We were recently talking about getting a plaque made for the supply. They used this power supply for the remainder of the trips and it was eventually returned. Just a little bit of insight. I can ask some questions tonight because we have club. Hope that gave a little bit of insight. Yours in railroading, -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 Ron, Well, I looked thru my pics. Sorry, can't help more with those 2 particular K4s's. What you seen is what I got for 1517 and 5464. While going thru my pics I wanted to see how late a photo I have with a K4s still looking like a K4s when built, circa 1928ish, ie original (not oil) Headlight and Slatted Pilot. I found several as late as July 1950, Converse Ind and Chicago (5495 and 5497) in original appearance. K4s 5038 East St Louis Ill, in Feb 1952 still retains the Slatted Pilot but with Smaller Headlight mounted in original location. Also found were many others with mixed configurations. Solid Pilot/Large Headlight, Solid Pilot/Small Headlight, Slatted Pilot/Modern Front End etc etc. Then I looked in "Many Faces of the K4s" book. One shot in there blew my photo away by 4 years. On page 49, a view at Englewood shows 2 K4s's meeting. K4s 5477 shows the Slatted Pilot and Original Headlight. May 1956!. The other K4s (number unknown) has Original Headlight and Solid Pilot. My observations from my photos show that Lines West was slow in converting to the Post War look. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 Ron, Well, I looked thru my pics. Sorry, can't help more with those 2 particular K4s's. What you seen is what I got for 1517 and 5464. While going thru my pics I wanted to see how late a photo I have with a K4s still looking like a K4s when built, circa 1928ish, ie original (not oil) Headlight and Slatted Pilot. I found several as late as July 1950, Converse Ind and Chicago (5495 and 5497) in original appearance. K4s 5038 East St Louis Ill, in Feb 1952 still retains the Slatted Pilot but with Smaller Headlight mounted in original location. Also found were many others with mixed configurations. Solid Pilot/Large Headlight, Solid Pilot/Small Headlight, Slatted Pilot/Modern Front End etc etc. Then I looked in "Many Faces of the K4s" book. One shot in there blew my photo away by 4 years. On page 49, a view at Englewood shows 2 K4s's meeting. K4s 5477 shows the Slatted Pilot and Original Headlight. May 1956!. The other K4s (number unknown) has Original Headlight and Solid Pilot. My observations from my photos show that Lines West was slow in converting to the Post War look. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:08:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's nos 1517 and 5464 --0-1780910471-1053378501=:55035 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gary Thanks for checking, will check some of these numbers against my Panhandle lists. Ron Gary Mittner wrote: Ron, Well, I looked thru my pics. Sorry, can't help more with those 2 particular K4s's. What you seen is what I got for 1517 and 5464. While going thru my pics I wanted to see how late a photo I have with a K4s still looking like a K4s when built, circa 1928ish, ie original (not oil) Headlight and Slatted Pilot. I found several as late as July 1950, Converse Ind and Chicago (5495 and 5497) in original appearance. K4s 5038 East St Louis Ill, in Feb 1952 still retains the Slatted Pilot but with Smaller Headlight mounted in original location. Also found were many others with mixed configurations. Solid Pilot/Large Headlight, Solid Pilot/Small Headlight, Slatted Pilot/Modern Front End etc etc. Then I looked in "Many Faces of the K4s" book. One shot in there blew my photo away by 4 years. On page 49, a view at Englewood shows 2 K4s's meeting. K4s 5477 shows the Slatted Pilot and Original Headlight. May 1956!. The other K4s (number unknown) has Original Headlight and Solid Pilot. My observations from my photos show that Lines West was slow in converting to the Post War look. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1780910471-1053378501=:55035 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Gary
 
Thanks for checking, will check some of these numbers against my Panhandle lists.
 
Ron

Gary Mittner <mittner@webtv.net> wrote:
Ron,

Well, I looked thru my pics. Sorry, can't help more with those 2
particular K4s's. What you seen is what I got for 1517 and 5464.

While going thru my pics I wanted to see how late a photo I have
with a K4s still looking like a K4s when built, circa 1928ish, ie
original (not oil) Headlight and Slatted Pilot. I found several as
late as July 1950, Converse Ind and Chicago (5495 and 5497) in original
appearance. K4s 5038 East St Louis Ill, in Feb 1952 still retains the
Slatted Pilot but with Smaller Headlight mounted in original location.
Also found were many others with mixed configurations. Solid Pilot/Large
Headlight, Solid Pilot/Small Headlight, Slatted Pilot/Modern Front End
etc etc.

Then I looked in "Many Faces of the K4s" book. One shot in there blew
my photo away by 4 years. On page 49, a view at Englewood shows 2 K4s's
meeting. K4s 547 Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1780910471-1053378501=:55035-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:11:06 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:14 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Burnley, Charles Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown I believe the testing you refer to was conducted after the locomotive was rendered usless by the axle/bearing failure. In actuality the locomotive probably should not have ever been operated in railfan service as the original overhaul did not address the areas you just mentioned. This is one of the major reasons the Steamtown project has taken so long. As they correct one problem they uncover 10 more. Mostly due to unintended abuse and ignorance as to the "nature of the beast". Buzz Didn't subsequent testing prove that much of the locomotive was worn out also. Wasn't the entire crown sheet and firebox suspect and replaced? The rebuild should provide a locomotive that is in essence totaly rebuilt that should be operational for many years with proper care. > Ron, > > 1361 when donated to Altoona at the Curve was overhauled, in that, it was in > operable condition. It was not, however, > given any heavy class repairs. The ravages of time and weather at the Curve > neccesitated a major overhaul before > she was put in railfan service. > > Urban legend has it that the last fan trip run by the 1361 was to York, Pa. > I don't remember > the year. On the return trip to Altoona The "crew" simply forgot (or did not > even know) to thoroughly > lubricate the driving wheel axle bearings, and as a result, the damage done, > rendered the locomotive inoperable. > Hence, the need for the second overhaul at Steamtown. > > Buzz > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:18 PM > To: Burnley, Charles; 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: [PRR] K-4 at Steamtown > > > > > > "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > Jerry & list, > > The K4s was donated to the City of Altoona as a permanent display at > Horseshoe Curve. > > >>>> I had always heard that before 1361 was parked at Horseshoe it was > "completely overhauled" at Altoona and should have been, in theory at least, > ready to fire up and steam away. Was this a myth?<<<< > > After the disasterous fan trip to York, PA. the locomotive was sent to > Steamtown for repairs > > >>>>What is the reference to the "disasterous fan trip"---I don't know this > story. Did someone simply try to fire-up 1361 and steam away as described > above with a subsequent disastor?<<< > > Ron > > > > _____ > > Do you Yahoo!? > HYPERLINK > "http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com"The New > Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > > **************************************************************************** > This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, > privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or > its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of > the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient > of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, > copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments > to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete > the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy > expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements > and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email > communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such > communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any > damages or other liability so arising. > **************************************************************************** > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:58:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: K4 at Steamtown From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Greg and List, Thanks to Greg for the #1361 restoration link. Man, I must have run into the wrong people at Steamtown yesterday. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:40:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead Gents, I'm not aware of where the idea of working a cut the length of a road freight began to gain it's popularity, but I suspect it's a 'model railroading' idea rather than a prototype one. At least in the popular 1950's era, when the yards being used were laid out much earlier as a rule. Please recall that the typical yard switcher was an 0-6-0 or single unit diesel. Wrestling a 50 or 60 car cut would have made for some interesting work, considering the lack of radios and the immense slack action required to bunch the cars for every pull in the steam era. An 0-6-0 would have had a handful with a cut a third that size on most roads. On our layouts, of course, it's a lot different. A good diesel switcher can handle a model train length of 15-20 cars with little problem, and maybe that's where this idea comes in. But on the prototype, I recall watching countless yard moves in the 40 foot box car days and recall very few very long cuts being worked in flat yards. I can't speak universally, but I can site observations on roads as diverse as the Reading, B&O, Pennsy, Milw, M& StL, Soo, NP, GN, MN&S, Wabash, Q, CP and others. If nothing else, few towns wanted grade crossings tied up for blocks at a time, even if such moves were feasible. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:08:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour --part1_1cf.a00fa4d.2bfabde5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amtrak and PennDOT are, in fact planning a station stop at Paradise for the Keystone Service trains. This is part of the overall upgrade/expansion plan that Amtrak and PennDOT have been working on for a number of years now. Amtrak WILL NOT be interchanging cars though. That is a total myth. Chris B #1918 --part1_1cf.a00fa4d.2bfabde5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amtrak and PennDOT are, in fact planning a station sto= p at Paradise for the Keystone Service trains.  This is part of the ove= rall upgrade/expansion plan that Amtrak and PennDOT have been working on for= a number of years now.  Amtrak WILL NOT be interchanging cars though.&= nbsp; That is a total myth.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_1cf.a00fa4d.2bfabde5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:29:48 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E5E.89C19470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Barry, You are right, and I remember all the issues related to this at the then "state-of-the-art" Conway back in the 60's and 70's. They had big trouble, even at this new very large yard with long leads, managing in-coming trains. They would back up as the crews tried to break them in pieces quickly, either for running cuts over the hump or put into tempoorary storage until that time. The funneling of all these trains into Conway alone was more than they could imagine, and the length of trains had gotten to the point that they could not store it, much less work it, as a single entity. It gave some pause for thought as to their decision to downgrade all the smaller local yards like Scully and Pitcairn in favor of this one big yard. Obviously numerous switchers were needed and could not work the same lead at the same time. You would see this small fleet of switchers swoop in and drag pieces of the train off in numerous directions, and this all happening dozens of time in a shift. I also remember a time when I saw one switcher yanking back and forth, over and over trying to work a LONG string of cars, without much success. I imagine that part of the issue was the time that it took to get air into the entire string and being somewhat impatient for it to do so, but it was an interesting display of futile banging and crashing. They may have had an air leak, but I also think there was more to it than that. Short cuts fill faster. And Conway adapted their power as time went on. The necessity of pushing these new longer, but still much shorter than a train strings of cars over the hump required at least two SD's. It appeared to me that the single switchers were only used to pluck cabins and short cuts off and work them off to the sidelines, while the bigger power handled the big strings. Maybe someone else can provide some insight on this? Elden -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:41 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead Gents, I'm not aware of where the idea of working a cut the length of a road freight began to gain it's popularity, but I suspect it's a 'model railroading' idea rather than a prototype one. At least in the popular 1950's era, when the yards being used were laid out much earlier as a rule. Please recall that the typical yard switcher was an 0-6-0 or single unit diesel. Wrestling a 50 or 60 car cut would have made for some interesting work, considering the lack of radios and the immense slack action required to bunch the cars for every pull in the steam era. An 0-6-0 would have had a handful with a cut a third that size on most roads. On our layouts, of course, it's a lot different. A good diesel switcher can handle a model train length of 15-20 cars with little problem, and maybe that's where this idea comes in. But on the prototype, I recall watching countless yard moves in the 40 foot box car days and recall very few very long cuts being worked in flat yards. I can't speak universally, but I can site observations on roads as diverse as the Reading, B&O, Pennsy, Milw, M& StL, Soo, NP, GN, MN&S, Wabash, Q, CP and others. If nothing else, few towns wanted grade crossings tied up for blocks at a time, even if such moves were feasible. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E5E.89C19470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard = lead

Barry,  You are right, and I remember all the = issues related to this at the then "state-of-the-art" Conway = back in the 60's and 70's.  They had big trouble, even at this new = very large yard with long leads, managing in-coming trains.  They = would back up as the crews tried to break them in pieces quickly, = either for running cuts over the hump or put into tempoorary storage = until that time.  The funneling of all these trains into Conway = alone was more than  they could imagine, and the length of trains = had gotten to the point that they could not store it, much less work = it, as a single entity.  It gave some pause for thought as to = their decision to downgrade all the smaller local yards like Scully and = Pitcairn in favor of this one big yard.  Obviously numerous = switchers were needed and could not work the same lead at the same = time.  You would see this small fleet of switchers swoop in and = drag pieces of the train off in numerous directions, and this all = happening dozens of time in a shift.

        I also = remember a time when I saw one switcher yanking back and forth, over = and over trying to work a LONG string of cars, without much = success.  I imagine that part of the issue was the time that it = took to get air into the entire string and being somewhat impatient for = it to do so, but it was an interesting display of futile banging and = crashing.  They may have had an air leak, but I also think there = was more to it than that.  Short cuts fill faster.

        And Conway = adapted their power as time went on.  The necessity of pushing = these new longer, but still much shorter than a train strings of cars = over the hump required at least two SD's.  It appeared to me that = the single switchers were only used to pluck cabins and short cuts off = and work them off to the sidelines, while the bigger power handled the = big strings.  Maybe someone else can provide some insight on = this?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 3:41 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of = cherry-picking/length of yard lead


Gents,
I'm not aware of where the idea of working a cut the = length of a road freight
began to gain it's popularity, but I suspect it's a = 'model railroading' idea
rather than a prototype one. At least in the popular = 1950's era, when the
yards being used were laid out much earlier as a = rule. Please recall that the
typical yard switcher was an 0-6-0 or single unit = diesel. Wrestling a 50 or
60 car cut would have made for some interesting = work, considering the lack of
radios and the immense slack action required to = bunch the cars for every pull
in the steam era. An 0-6-0 would have had a handful = with a cut a third that
size on most roads.
On our layouts, of course, it's a lot different. A = good diesel switcher can
handle a model train length of 15-20 cars with = little problem, and maybe
that's where this idea comes in. But on the = prototype, I recall watching
countless yard moves in the 40 foot box car days and = recall very few very
long cuts being worked in flat yards. I can't speak = universally, but I can
site observations on roads as diverse as the = Reading, B&O, Pennsy, Milw, M&
StL, Soo, NP, GN, MN&S, Wabash, Q, CP and = others. If nothing else, few towns
wanted grade crossings tied up for blocks at a time, = even if such moves were
feasible.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E5E.89C19470-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:33:09 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C31E24.559219C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Further along the questions Rick Tipton posed, I think one big neglected = field is the architecture, both local vernacular houses and stores, and = railroad buildings, connected with the PRR. After leaving PRR = territory around the time PC came along and moving to California, I'm = struck every time I return by the very distinctive local architecture in = places like Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Ohio. I went on = the Camden and Amboy bus trip at the Philadelphia meeting, and the local = buildings in places like Camden, Burlington, and Bordentown just bowled = me over. And keep in mind that the PRR ran down the main street in = Burlington and many other places. The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype modelers, cover a lot of = this for their areas. The only modeler who's done something close near = PRR territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff he's done is = very, very specific to Troy, NY This may be one reason why published = PRR model layouts don't turn my crank -- something's missing. The = modeler feels he's got to have all kinds of distinctive PRR rolling = stock, but it's placed in "generic" ground foam scenery with somewhat = bland commercial kits for structures. =20 PRR modelers have a gold mine of material in the local areas and are = doing little or nothing with it! ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C31E24.559219C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Further along the questions Rick Tipton posed, I = think one big=20 neglected field is the architecture, both local vernacular houses and = stores,=20 and railroad buildings, connected with the PRR.     = After=20 leaving PRR territory around the time PC came along and moving to = California,=20 I'm struck every time I return by the very distinctive local = architecture in=20 places like Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Ohio.   I = went on=20 the Camden and Amboy bus trip at the Philadelphia meeting, and the local = buildings in places like Camden, Burlington, and Bordentown just bowled = me=20 over.   And keep in mind that the PRR ran down the main street = in=20 Burlington and many other places.
 
The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype = modelers, cover=20 a lot of this for their areas.  The only modeler who's done = something close=20 near PRR territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff he's done = is very,=20 very specific to Troy, NY   This may be one reason why = published PRR=20 model layouts don't turn my crank -- something's missing.   = The=20 modeler feels he's got to have all kinds of distinctive PRR rolling = stock,=20 but it's placed in "generic" ground foam scenery with somewhat = bland=20 commercial kits for structures.    
 
PRR modelers have a gold mine of material in the = local areas=20 and are doing little or nothing with it!
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C31E24.559219C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:09:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --part1_11f.21dd2e41.2bfada5c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/19/2003 7:53:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, j.bruce@gte.net writes: > The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype modelers, cover a lot of this > for their areas. The only modeler who's done something close near PRR > territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff he's done is very, > very specific to Troy, NY This may be one reason why published PRR model > layouts don't turn my crank -- something's missing. The modeler feels > he's got to have all kinds of distinctive PRR rolling stock, but it's > placed in "generic" ground foam scenery with somewhat bland commercial kits > for structures. > > PRR modelers have a gold mine of material in the local areas and are doing > little or nothing with it! > Jim Foster gave an excellent clinic on this topic at the MiniBunch meeting this past April. I gave one specifically on distinctive Pennsylvania architecture as part of my East Broad Top presentation at the Wilkes-Barre narrow gauge convention back in . . . gosh, in . . . well, 1983 or somewhere thereabouts. Lee Rainey --part1_11f.21dd2e41.2bfada5c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/19/2003 7:53:44 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, j.bruce@gte.net writes:


The narrow gaugers, and some We= stern prototype modelers, cover a lot of this for their areas.  The onl= y modeler who's done something close near PRR territory is John Nehrich, tho= ugh a lot of the stuff he's done is very, very specific to Troy, NY &nb= sp; This may be one reason why published PRR model layouts don't turn my cra= nk -- something's missing.   The modeler feels he's got to have al= l kinds of distinctive PRR rolling stock, but it's placed in "generic" groun= d foam scenery with somewhat bland commercial kits for structures. &nbs= p;  

PRR modelers have a gold min= e of material in the local areas and are doing little or nothing with it!


Jim Foster gave an excellent clinic on this topic at the MiniBunch meeting t= his past April. I gave one specifically on distinctive Pennsylvania architec= ture as part of my East Broad Top presentation at the Wilkes-Barre narrow ga= uge convention back in . . . gosh, in . . . well, 1983 or somewhere thereabo= uts.

Lee Rainey --part1_11f.21dd2e41.2bfada5c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:57:08 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C31E38.724C22E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee, I know Jim from the Three Rivers group (I've been to several of = their meets, but missed any where architecture was discussed -- though = last year's meet in Waynesburg, PA, was an excellent case in point of = fascinating local architecture, as well as inside-and-out inspection of = the PRR station in Washington). =20 But the question is PUBLISHING this stuff! John Nehrich does it. Don = Spiro has an interesting piece in the current RMC where he's = scratchbuilt some models of buildings from Pennsylvania and upstate New = York, but doesn't give us real info beyond things like downspouts. We = need more in these areas. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LeeRainey@aol.com=20 To: j.bruce@gte.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout In a message dated 5/19/2003 7:53:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, = j.bruce@gte.net writes: The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype modelers, cover a lot = of this for their areas. The only modeler who's done something close = near PRR territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff he's done = is very, very specific to Troy, NY This may be one reason why = published PRR model layouts don't turn my crank -- something's missing. = The modeler feels he's got to have all kinds of distinctive PRR rolling = stock, but it's placed in "generic" ground foam scenery with somewhat = bland commercial kits for structures. =20 PRR modelers have a gold mine of material in the local areas and are = doing little or nothing with it! Jim Foster gave an excellent clinic on this topic at the MiniBunch = meeting this past April. I gave one specifically on distinctive = Pennsylvania architecture as part of my East Broad Top presentation at = the Wilkes-Barre narrow gauge convention back in . . . gosh, in . . . = well, 1983 or somewhere thereabouts. Lee Rainey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C31E38.724C22E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee, I know Jim from the Three Rivers group (I've = been to=20 several of their meets, but missed any where architecture was discussed = --=20 though last year's meet in Waynesburg, PA, was an excellent case in = point of=20 fascinating local architecture, as well as inside-and-out inspection of = the PRR=20 station in Washington). 
 
But the question is PUBLISHING this stuff!  = John Nehrich=20 does it.  Don Spiro has an interesting piece in the current = RMC where=20 he's scratchbuilt some models of buildings from Pennsylvania and upstate = New=20 York, but doesn't give us real info beyond things like downspouts.  = We need=20 more in these areas.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LeeRainey@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 6:09 = PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Another = Factor That=20 Makes a PRR Layout

In a message dated 5/19/2003 7:53:44 PM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, j.bruce@gte.net = writes:


The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype modelers, = cover a=20 lot of this for their areas.  The only modeler who's done = something=20 close near PRR territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff = he's=20 done is very, very specific to Troy, NY   This may be one = reason=20 why published PRR model layouts don't turn my crank -- something's=20 missing.   The modeler feels he's got to have all kinds of = distinctive PRR rolling stock, but it's placed in "generic" ground = foam=20 scenery with somewhat bland commercial kits for=20 structures.    

PRR modelers=20 have a gold mine of material in the local areas and are doing little = or=20 nothing with it!


Jim=20 Foster gave an excellent clinic on this topic at the MiniBunch meeting = this=20 past April. I gave one specifically on distinctive Pennsylvania = architecture=20 as part of my East Broad Top presentation at the Wilkes-Barre narrow = gauge=20 convention back in . . . gosh, in . . . well, 1983 or somewhere=20 thereabouts.

Lee Rainey = ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C31E38.724C22E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:16:39 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR and local flavor; operations Hello, everyone, There's a point here, which I've been trying to work on on my Middle Div. layout - first, visit the local areas you are modeling and take lots of photos (and find older photos if you can). Much that remains in many parts of PRR territory, esp. lines East, still has its distinctive 19th century flavor. Central PA, for example, has a style of mid-19th century house architecture that is very distinctive and few structure models come this way. Second, use your photos to begin kit-bashing. There are almost no commercial building structures that, for example, are right for central PA right out of the box (Maybe we PRR guys should be making more noise on this to the manufactureres on this!). Many kits can be modified to look right - some Model Power and American Model Builders houses are candidates here. While I've been too busy to follow the recent thread on operations, I have a 4- track portion of the Middle Div. in HO and we regularly operate both outside tracks - #1 and #4. The PRR locals on my layout, M18 and M19, work out of Lewistown (which is essentially a staging yard tied into track #4. There's enough to keep a crew busy for a couple of hours. I have facilitated this by having a track connection between tracks #1 and 4 so that the same local can appear to head out of "Lewistown" on #4, switch over to track #1 and then back to #4 to return to Lewistown. It's not exactly prototypical (the train should start on Track #1, head east, and then return on track #4), it's close enough for my layout. In addition, I run a number of scheduled passenger trains that enter and leave the layout via hidden staging tracks. Also, with 4 mainline tracks that are continuous loops, tracks #2 and 3 can have trains that just run, entering and leaving each scene on the layout periodically. Call it moving scenery. If I really wanted more internse PRR operations, I would have a branch line (say, the Bald Eagle branch or the like) connecting and run as a point-to- point with a dispatcher. In fact, I have a n.g. connection at Port Royal, the Tuscarora Valley RR, which runs as a point-to-point, uses a Ramsey transfer to place st.g. cars on n.g. trucks, and connects with two other narrow gauges along the way. Using a 5:1 fast clock, we can run a great session for between 8 and 10 people. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:33:27 -0400 List: Bruce said: > Bruce is right about protofreelancing, I feel that you should at least give some base to your freelancing. I know that on my planned layout it will be the Northern Central. My private roadname is the Tuckahoe Valley Railroad. I can tie this in at a few spots. If i have enough room it could be the substitute for the Cumberland Valley. It could also stand in for the Stewartstown Railroad at New Freedom. A last resort would be Hanover Junction depsite a Proto junction with the Western Maryland. The cars for my road have enough guidlines that they can fit in with PRR equipment but have their own special taste. I'm also doing a semi-freelance with the Northern Central itself. In my version, the Northern Central may have been bought out by the PRR, but part of the contract staates that the NCR still has an active presense on the line. I'm working on decals for some 1940-50's NCR equipment. It's how to have prototypical freelancing fun. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:50:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead In a message dated 5/19/03 5:48:25 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << I'm not aware of where the idea of working a cut the length of a road freight began to gain it's popularity, but I suspect it's a 'model railroading' idea rather than a prototype one. At least in the popular 1950's era, when the yards being used were laid out much earlier as a rule. >> It is not a model railroading invention, but may be era and location specific, as you suggest. I concur that an 0-6-0 in a 1950 flat yard sans radios might not want to switch with a 60 car handle on a yard with even a gentle curve, even if it could. In any case, noone is suggesting that a train might not be broken down into a few managable cuts rather than one road freight length. However, how many cuts did a hump engine in the late 40's make in a long train for the "grand shove"at at least a semi-modern hump yard. On the flat, a diesel switcher could normally handle a pretty long cut, albeit as slow as 6 mph in some cases. By the 80's, radio came into play and the efficiencies of the grand pull and shove were more achievable in longer cuts. Certainly, the prototype railroaders of more recent vintage I know concur in the procedure. It would be interesting to know from any railroaders of the earlier era what was considered a reasonable cut for flat switching. I still doubt cherrypicking was the order of the day, but am willing to be contradicted by someone who was there. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:05:56 +0000 Isn't that going to be more a function of the size of the yard than anything else? I would expect that an Enola or Conway would handle far different lengths of cuts than a Margie, Estes or Frankford Junction. Just a thought. Norm Bell > In a message dated 5/19/03 5:48:25 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com > writes: > > << I'm not aware of where the idea of working a cut the length of a road > freight > began to gain it's popularity, but I suspect it's a 'model railroading' idea > rather than a prototype one. At least in the popular 1950's era, when the > yards being used were laid out much earlier as a rule. >> > > It is not a model railroading invention, but may be era and location > specific, as you suggest. I concur that an 0-6-0 in a 1950 flat yard sans > radios might not want to switch with a 60 car handle on a yard with even a > gentle curve, even if it could. In any case, noone is suggesting that a train > might not be broken down into a few managable cuts rather than one road > freight length. However, how many cuts did a hump engine in the late 40's > make in a long train for the "grand shove"at at least a semi-modern hump yard. > On the flat, a diesel switcher could normally handle a pretty long cut, > albeit as slow as 6 mph in some cases. > By the 80's, radio came into play and the efficiencies of the grand pull and > shove were more achievable in longer cuts. Certainly, the prototype > railroaders of more recent vintage I know concur in the procedure. > > It would be interesting to know from any railroaders of the earlier era what > was considered a reasonable cut for flat switching. I still doubt > cherrypicking was the order of the day, but am willing to be contradicted by > someone who was there. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The Sweet and the Sour Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:13:27 +0000 I can see someone unloading eastbound and stepping accross a platform to board a Strasburg train but what will westbound people do? I can see a disaster in the making with a lot of tourists unfamiliar with safety practices wandering accross the main line to get to the Strasburg train. I believe that area is on a slight curve also isn't it? > Amtrak and PennDOT are, in fact planning a station stop at Paradise for the > Keystone Service trains. This is part of the overall upgrade/expansion plan > that Amtrak and PennDOT have been working on for a number of years now. > Amtrak WILL NOT be interchanging cars though. That is a total myth. > > Chris B #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:33:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Symbol Freight Numbers From: Jerry Britton In the case of symbol freights appearing in the "Arranged Freight Schedules"... The symbol often depicts the origination/destination, such as ENPI might be Enola to Pittsburgh. In other cases, such as CV, it indicates the branch it runs on (Cumberland Valley). However, is there a rhyme or reason for the number that follows? I know the LCL trains, which had high priority, were low, such as 2, 5, 7, etc. The CV trains were high...60, 88, etc. Since there were only a couple of these in 1954, why weren't they 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.? Is the number an over-the-entire-system priority rating of some sort? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Starsburg Amtrak Connection Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:14:32 +0000 Wouldn't that be at Lehman Place rather than Paradise? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] RE: Sweet & Sour Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:51:26 -0400 >From what I remember, Steamtown continued after Nelson Blount's death in 1968 at Bellow Falls Vt until 1983. The Foundation in 1979 was talking about moving to former Ulster & Delaware in New York, but that didn't come about. As always, the problem was that Bellows Falls was out of the way in a State that could care less if they were there or even acknowledged their presence. [Somewhat similar to Altoona's position]. This was especially true after the Bicentennial Train project flop. There were several shake-ups of Foundation Board during those years too. They did move in 1984 [?] to Scranton after working with local politicians and development leaders to tie into the Lackawanna Terminal rehab and downtown development projects. Plans were presented at 1985 Railfan weekend for an interactive museum that in some ways did occur and in other ways were too outlandish. Then they were only going for grants, afterwards if I recall NPS was brought into picture by the Congressman from Scranton after another shake-up of Steamtown Foundation and immenient closure. Paul ---------- From: PRR-Talk[SMTP:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: Monday, 19 May, 2003 2:20 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/19/03 The Steam Town collection was originally acquired by Nelson Blount. When he passed away, the collection was eventually bought by the National Parks Service and moved to Scranton. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] length of yard lead Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:29:54 -0500 Hi Just want to jump in with an observation I had several years ago. Around 1995 I think. I was stopped at a grade crossing. The yard engine was a little SW1200. I counted the cars this engine was pulling out of the yard, and later pushed back in. There were 250 cars in the string. That engine was crawling, to say the least. But she was getting the train ready for the road engines, sitting on another track. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:48:07 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31EEF.9718AE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John, There is actually a lot of information being collected out there on just this very subject. It is just not something that gets discussed within the larger groups generally. I have over a thousand images taken in the Pittsburgh area that contain no railroad subject, but just local architecture, buildings, signs, telephone poles, road surfaces, manhole covers, etc., etc, etc. However, as was mentioned in previous messages, this is a really specific subject, and not one that a whole lot of people want to hear about. Most want focus on the railroad aspects only. And some model manufacturers are willing to work on this. I am working with Randy Bachman of Modeler's Choice to bring out a model of an "I-House", that specific narrow, highly peaked roofed, hose that appears all over the east and northern midwest. Randy seems very interested in doing structures specific to that area, and I am willing to invest time in helping out. If you would all like to discuss all these peripheral subjects, I would love to get involved. I would also like to hear any discussion on subjects that make our layout-building more accurate. SO, let's kick the ball off....OTHER than the PRR-specific things that should appear on your layout (or in your modeling)what makes a layout call out PENNSY! I am sure the Lines Westers have their own call on this, but how about Pennsylvania and vicinity. Have you ever noticed the patina that buildings get in Pennsylvania, Ohio and nearby? That black/grey overcast that covers things? How do you simulate it? Have you noticed the dominance of brick of every variety in commercial architecture? Yellow, red, brown, orange, and all shades in between. But the biggest issue on this is that brick buildings on many layouts just don;t look right for Pennsylvania! Why? I was staring at a bunch of photos before I figured it out. Unless the building has just been repointed, the mortar is NOT white or even light grey (concrete color), it is DARK grey to black. That is the soot collecting in the mortar lines where rainwash will not wash it down the wall. Many modelers paint their brick medium red and then mortar the cracks with white. Does that look right to you? What I also noticed is that the mortar color you use should be toward the opposite color value from that which you use on the brick. Lighter brick needs a dark mortar, and vice versa. My brown brick building looked better with a lighter grey mortar (but still pretty dark), and my lighter brick looked better with dark grey mortar. This just seems to look right to the eye. Have you also noticed how the dirt collects more readily under window lintels? You get that patch of darker color right under the window openings? And under the eaves? I used an airbrush to simulate this and it looks better to me than it did before. Have you noticed the way sandstone lintels and scroll work darkens from the soot? Unless you are modeling one of those structures that got sandblasted later (MUCH later), much of Pennsylvania commercial architecture was filthy with soot. Light tan sandstone weathered to grimy black. Brick went several shades darker. And clapboard siding went grey. Light painted houses got sooty streaking down the sides. Ever notice how clean most models are? What other details do you notice? Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very area-specific. So, let's open up this discussion! I am sure you've all given this a lot of thought. Best of the day, Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:33 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Further along the questions Rick Tipton posed, I think one big neglected field is the architecture, both local vernacular houses and stores, and railroad buildings, connected with the PRR. After leaving PRR territory around the time PC came along and moving to California, I'm struck every time I return by the very distinctive local architecture in places like Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Ohio. I went on the Camden and Amboy bus trip at the Philadelphia meeting, and the local buildings in places like Camden, Burlington, and Bordentown just bowled me over. And keep in mind that the PRR ran down the main street in Burlington and many other places. The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype modelers, cover a lot of this for their areas. The only modeler who's done something close near PRR territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff he's done is very, very specific to Troy, NY This may be one reason why published PRR model layouts don't turn my crank -- something's missing. The modeler feels he's got to have all kinds of distinctive PRR rolling stock, but it's placed in "generic" ground foam scenery with somewhat bland commercial kits for structures. PRR modelers have a gold mine of material in the local areas and are doing little or nothing with it! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31EEF.9718AE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
John,
    There is actually a lot of information being collected out there on just this very subject.  It is just not something that gets discussed within the larger groups generally.  I have over a thousand images taken in the Pittsburgh area that contain no railroad subject, but just local architecture, buildings, signs, telephone poles, road surfaces, manhole covers, etc., etc, etc.  However, as was mentioned in previous messages, this is a really specific subject, and not one that a whole lot of people want to hear about.  Most want focus on the railroad aspects only.
    And some model manufacturers are willing to work on this.  I am working with Randy Bachman of Modeler's Choice to bring out a model of an "I-House", that specific narrow, highly peaked roofed, hose that appears all over the east and northern midwest.  Randy seems very interested in doing structures specific to that area, and I am willing to invest time in helping out. 
    If you would all like to discuss all these peripheral subjects, I would love to get involved.  I would also like to hear any discussion on subjects that make our layout-building more accurate.
    SO, let's kick the ball off....OTHER than the PRR-specific things that should appear on your layout (or in your modeling)what makes a layout call out PENNSY!  I am sure the Lines Westers have their own call on this, but how about Pennsylvania and vicinity.
    Have you ever noticed the patina that buildings get in Pennsylvania, Ohio and nearby?  That black/grey overcast that covers things?  How do you simulate it? 
    Have you noticed the dominance of brick of every variety in commercial architecture?  Yellow, red, brown, orange, and all shades in between.  But the biggest issue on this is that brick buildings on many layouts just don;t look right for Pennsylvania!  Why?  I was staring at a bunch of photos before I figured it out.  Unless the building has just been repointed, the mortar is NOT white or even light grey (concrete color), it is DARK grey to black.  That is the soot collecting in the mortar lines where rainwash will not wash it down the wall.  Many modelers paint their brick medium red and then mortar the cracks with white.  Does that look right to you?  What I also noticed is that the mortar color you use should be toward the opposite color value from that which you use on the brick.  Lighter brick needs a dark mortar, and vice versa.  My brown brick building looked better with a lighter grey mortar (but still pretty dark), and my lighter brick looked better with dark grey mortar.  This just seems to look right to the eye. 
    Have you also noticed how the dirt collects more readily under window lintels?  You get that patch of darker color right under the window openings?  And under the eaves?  I used an airbrush to simulate this and it looks better to me than it did before.
    Have you noticed the way sandstone lintels and scroll work darkens from the soot?  Unless you are modeling one of those structures that got sandblasted later (MUCH later), much of Pennsylvania commercial architecture was filthy with soot.  Light tan sandstone weathered to grimy black.  Brick went several shades darker.  And clapboard siding went grey.  Light painted houses got sooty streaking down the sides.  Ever notice how clean most models are?
    What other details do you notice?  Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very area-specific.
    So, let's open up this discussion!  I am sure you've all given this a lot of thought.
Best of the day,
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:33 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout

Further along the questions Rick Tipton posed, I think one big neglected field is the architecture, both local vernacular houses and stores, and railroad buildings, connected with the PRR.     After leaving PRR territory around the time PC came along and moving to California, I'm struck every time I return by the very distinctive local architecture in places like Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Ohio.   I went on the Camden and Amboy bus trip at the Philadelphia meeting, and the local buildings in places like Camden, Burlington, and Bordentown just bowled me over.   And keep in mind that the PRR ran down the main street in Burlington and many other places.
 
The narrow gaugers, and some Western prototype modelers, cover a lot of this for their areas.  The only modeler who's done something close near PRR territory is John Nehrich, though a lot of the stuff he's done is very, very specific to Troy, NY   This may be one reason why published PRR model layouts don't turn my crank -- something's missing.   The modeler feels he's got to have all kinds of distinctive PRR rolling stock, but it's placed in "generic" ground foam scenery with somewhat bland commercial kits for structures.    
 
PRR modelers have a gold mine of material in the local areas and are doing little or nothing with it!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31EEF.9718AE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Anti-Cherry Picking Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:54:52 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31EB5.DBE90060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been operating for several years with a yard that's too small for = the layout, and I'm in the process of adding another peninsula with a = yard that might be closer to the right size. However, in the real = basement world, it's not an easy thing to say "just make your yard = bigger" or "add a bigger yard". This goes, among other things, to the = John Armstrong "givens and druthers" -- if I want enough scenery to = satisfy me, then other factors will need adjustment. Based on the discussion so far, all you need to avoid cherry picking is = (1) a yard lead long enough to handle your trains efficiently; (2) (not = really pointed out yet) "bowl tracks" or yard body tracks also with = enough capacity to handle the cars and destinations of one or more = trains; (3) arrival and departure tracks laid out to prevent obstruction = of the sorting process; (4) (referred to obliquely by Rick) a routing = system that will tell you your day's work in the yard -- predicting = insofar as possible what trains are going out, and what cars will be in = them AT THE START OF YOUR WORK DAY. =20 I've operated with yardmasters who get all the car cards laid out in = front of them like a giant solitaire game, and I respect that, but it = makes my head hurt. I don't think most of the computerized routers = have the facility to tell the yardmaster how to sort a full yard without = the yardmaster also having to scratch his head pretty hard. No system = to my knowledge will let you set up track 4 as Memphis, track 8 as Fort = Wayne shorts, etc. etc., and then tell the yardmaster to put the cars = there. So in part the idea just to avoid cherry-picking and do it all in one = big shove is not always practical on a model layout, which isn't = surprising,. since based on discussion it wasn't always practical on the = prototype. So an interesting point is how in fact WAS it done if you couldn't do it = the efficient way? I keep thinking of the oral history published in the = Keystone by the guy who worked various towers in the Philadelphia = Division, in particular his account of NORRIS, where the yardmaster = routinely used the main tracks, clearing them only for first class = trains. This is a little more like my own layout. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31EB5.DBE90060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've been operating for several years with a yard = that's too=20 small for the layout, and I'm in the process of adding another peninsula = with a=20 yard that might be closer to the right size.   However, in the = real=20 basement world, it's not an easy thing to say "just make your yard = bigger" or=20 "add a bigger yard".  This goes, among other things, to the John = Armstrong=20 "givens and druthers" -- if I want enough scenery to satisfy me, then = other=20 factors will need adjustment.
 
Based on the discussion so far, all you need to = avoid cherry=20 picking is (1) a yard lead long enough to handle your trains = efficiently; (2)=20 (not really pointed out yet) "bowl tracks" or yard body tracks also with = enough=20 capacity to handle the cars and destinations of one or more trains; (3) = arrival=20 and departure tracks laid out to prevent obstruction of the sorting = process; (4)=20 (referred to obliquely by Rick) a routing system that will tell you your = day's=20 work in the yard -- predicting insofar as possible what trains are going = out,=20 and what cars will be in them AT THE START OF YOUR WORK DAY.   =
 
I've operated with yardmasters who get all the car = cards laid=20 out in front of them like a giant solitaire game, and I respect that, = but it=20 makes my head hurt.   I don't think most of the computerized = routers=20 have the facility to tell the yardmaster how to sort a full yard without = the=20 yardmaster also having to scratch his head pretty hard.   No = system to=20 my knowledge will let you set up track 4 as Memphis, track 8 as Fort = Wayne=20 shorts, etc. etc., and then tell the yardmaster to put the cars=20 there.
 
So in part the idea just to avoid cherry-picking and = do it all=20 in one big shove is not always practical on a model layout, which isn't=20 surprising,. since based on discussion it wasn't always practical on the = prototype.
 
So an interesting point is how in fact WAS it done = if you=20 couldn't do it the efficient way?  I keep thinking of the oral = history=20 published in the Keystone by the guy who worked various towers in the=20 Philadelphia Division, in particular his account of NORRIS, where the = yardmaster=20 routinely used the main tracks, clearing them only for first class=20 trains.   This is a little more like my own=20 layout.
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31EB5.DBE90060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:02:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout From: Jerry Britton On 5/20/03 12:48 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > What other details do you notice? Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone > poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very > area-specific. > So, let's open up this discussion! I am sure you've all given this a lot of > thought. Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:27:44 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout With Interior details ?? ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:29:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout From: Jerry Britton On 5/20/03 1:27 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > With Interior details ?? ;-) Actually, things that can hint of a northern basement... ..."dorothy doors" (the hatch-type doors some houses have for external access to a basement) ...a coal truck making a delivery with its chute through an opening in the foundation of the house. ...the obvious...an exposed basement. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Jerry Britton wrote: > >> Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-) >> ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:40:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --0-1029548496-1053452409=:32788 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Okay, here's a few things that I would include on a Western PA oriented Pennsy layout if I wanted to make it look more realistic: 1. sulfur creeks ("cricks") and strip-mine cuts---unfortunately, until quite recently many of the streams and creeks in western PA ran a dirty orange like color from the sulfur drainage from the various mines that were all over the area. Unfortunately, most layouts that I have seen that try to model water try to make it look nice and clean, maybe with someone sitting in a boat or canoe in it. Nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near the water in one of these bodies of water except foolish adolescents like myself, who used to swim in the cleaner strip mine cuts at the risk of punishment from the parents. 2. slag piles-----there are slag piles everywhere in western PA. These are appropriate and necessary for almost all periods, as some of the mines were being abandoned early in the century and abandonment continued right through the 50's and 60's. Until fairly recently there was no requirement to clean up the environment, so piles of slag and mine tailings were simply left as is. For that matter, many of the buildings and facilities were left as is, cheaper to just leave them than to tear them down, i.e,. mine tipples, office buildings, old banks of beehive ovens for coke making. And remember, most of these things were immediately adjacent to the railroad tracks. 3. brick streets---there were and still are quite a few streets in the smaller towns of western PA that were paved with brick. Although many have since been asphalted over, there are still a number of brick streets visible in the area, once again often in the areas adjacent to the railroad tracks. Also, even on paved over brick streets one will find exposed paving bricks in the ubiquitous potholes. 4. trolley tracks in streets---even if you don't want to actually model traction, there were trolley tracks in street all over western PA. Do it right, make them broad gauge where appropriate. 5. telephone and electric wiring/pole systems---not much in underground lines in western PA. There were poles and wires everywhere, even in the middle of nowhere. Don't forget the string of poles with numerous cross arms that ran along the edge of the PRR main line. 6. Dirt in general----I agree that there seemed to be a certain overall patina on the buildings in this area. That dinginess seemed to cover the landscape as a whole. Maybe after finishing a layout and scenery, one should overspray the whole thing with a light mixture of grimy black!! Hope these observations are of interest from one who grew up and still lives in western PA. Ron Di Orio Jerry Britton wrote: On 5/20/03 12:48 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > What other details do you notice? Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone > poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very > area-specific. > So, let's open up this discussion! I am sure you've all given this a lot of > thought. Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1029548496-1053452409=:32788 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Okay, here's a few things that I would include on a Western PA oriented Pennsy layout if I wanted to make it look more realistic:
       
        1.  sulfur creeks  ("cricks") and strip-mine cuts---unfortunately, until quite recently many of the streams and creeks in western PA ran a dirty orange like color from the sulfur drainage from the various mines that were all over the area.  Unfortunately, most layouts that I have seen that try to model water try to make it look nice and clean, maybe with someone sitting in a boat or canoe in it.  Nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near the water in one of these bodies of water except foolish adolescents like myself, who used to swim in the cleaner strip mine cuts at the risk of punishment from the parents.
 
       2.  slag piles-----there are slag piles everywhere in western PA.  These are appropriate and necessary for almost all periods, as some of the mines were being abandoned early in the century and abandonment continued right through the 50's and 60's.  Until fairly recently there was no requirement to clean up the environment, so piles of slag and mine tailings were simply left as is.  For that matter, many of the buildings and facilities were left as is, cheaper to just leave them than to tear them down, i.e,. mine tipples, office buildings, old banks of beehive ovens for coke making.  And remember, most of these things were immediately adjacent to the railroad tracks.
 
      3.  brick streets---there were and still are quite a few streets in the smaller towns of western PA that were paved with brick.  Although many have since been asphalted over, there are still a number of brick streets visible in the area, once again often in the areas adjacent to the railroad tracks.  Also, even on paved over brick streets one will find exposed paving bricks in the ubiquitous potholes.
 
     4.  trolley tracks in streets---even if you don't want to actually model traction, there were trolley tracks in street all over western PA.  Do it right, make them broad gauge where appropriate.
 
     5.  telephone and electric wiring/pole systems---not much in underground lines in western PA.  There were poles and wires everywhere, even in the middle of nowhere.  Don't forget the string of poles with numerous cross arms that ran along the edge of the PRR main line.
 
     6.  Dirt in general----I agree that there seemed to be a certain overall patina on the buildings in this area. That dinginess seemed to cover the landscape as a whole.  Maybe after finishing a layout and scenery, one should overspray the whole thing with a light mixture of grimy black!!
 
  Hope these observations are of interest from one who grew up and still lives in western PA.
 
Ron Di Orio
 
Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote:
On 5/20/03 12:48 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote:

> What other details do you notice? Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone
> poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very
> area-specific.
> So, let's open up this discussion! I am sure you've all given this a lot of
> thought.

Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1029548496-1053452409=:32788-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:08:36 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Connection (was: The Sweet and the Sour) Hi all, having a train connection to a museum railway and, in consequence, with a railway museum would be great! And, as was said elsewhere, the region has something for everybody, not just for the train nuts. For us few addicts the operation of a museum railway or a collection like in the museum at Strasburg could not be justified, so we should be thankful for all those who just come to have fun with the choo-choo. To comment on a remark by ndbprr@att.net: >From my visits to the place and photos I have taken (one with an Eastbound Amtrak train roaring by while Strasburg #90 was running around the train, in 1995) I recall that there is a road overpass directly to the East side of the junction. A sidewalk and steps up to the bridge would solve the problem for westbound travelers. Without major work alike the junction could not be used for passengers, in the state it is now. Another nice feature existed at the junction, at least when I was there last time, which is a ice-cream-factory with outlet, and benches to watch the action with the Strasburg train making its turn. I got there by car, and the lady at the icecream counter told me she heared of many people who had seen the signs for the icecream from the train, and afterwards had problems to get to the place. A junction would surely boost there business (and the stuff was good, too). I hope to have a chance to go to Lancaster area again in not too distant future. Burkhard Sanner ndbprr@att.net schrieb: > I can see someone unloading eastbound and stepping accross a platform to board > a Strasburg train but what will westbound people do? I can see a disaster in > the making with a lot of tourists unfamiliar with safety practices wandering > accross the main line to get to the Strasburg train. I believe that area is on > a slight curve also isn't it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:30:33 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31EFD.E6019B50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jerry is right, and how often do you see correctly-modeled foundations and basement walls. Most often on layouts you seen houses and brick buildings mounted directly on the ground. Many eastern homes and businesses were structured so the first floor elevation was at least two, more often 3-4 feet above the surrounding ground surface. This was done for two reasons, one was elevation above anticipated water levels during flood events, the other being light into the interior. Most foundation/basement walls had short windows in each wall to let natural light in. You have to remember that most of these structures were put in prior to 1930 and had limited light sources. Basements were used for laundrying, working, and active storage, not dead storage like today. You needed those windows. Jerry also brings up the coal doors and large access doors (Dorothy) to the basement that most folks don't model. Foundations ran the gamut, from stone to brick to concrete block, but were ALWAYS there. And Ron, you brought up some really great ones. You've obviously spent some time looking at the right stuff. I also grew up in Pgh., and you hit it. Those are all great elements for a layout. On my last layout I had a coal mining area with the orange water in the creek downstream of the mine drainage. I added orange paint to the Envirotex just before the final pour. I also had a green/grey creek downstream of the mill complex. People used to say, "I guess this is before the Clean Water Act!" On my new one I have a green creek, as the water in that one is actually green in appearance. I think it has as much to do with the algae on the rocks and bed as it does with light reflectance or whatever off the nearby canopy. I also have a brick street on my new layout. I used brick sheet, painted it fcc, glued it down, and used black stain on it to accentuate the gaps and draken the brick. It is not quite right, as this street was really cobblestone, and cobblestone is slightly fatter (being stone and being thicker in dimension than brick), but I didn't want to wait to get it done. I think in retrospect that I should have, as I think Faller makes this stuff. But it gives the right feel. Has anyone looked at the Walthers brick sheets with the track in them for trolley/streetcar modeling? I bought a batch, but have not gotten to that part of the layout yet. Does it look right? I'd hate to have to carve over 12 feet of cobblestone street complete with trackage. Argh. Has anyone investigated the idea of doing cobblestone street trackage with trolley tracks as a reverse casting from a mold? Like making a master, then making a rubber mold and casting sections in plaster? Oh, has everyone seen that photo by John Vachon on the back cover of "Pennsy in the Steel City" (Kobus & Consoli)? I got a blow up of the original on my wall in front of me right now. Cobblestone street with tracks, brick sidewalk, Fire/Police call box, tele pole with wire rung steps, Fort Pitt neon beer sign, and a string of hoppers in front of USSteels Duquesne Works. The BOMB!!! It is my best reference and motivation photo. Great ideas, everybody! Thanks. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:40 AM To: Jerry Britton; ELDEN GATWOOD; 'John Bruce'; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Okay, here's a few things that I would include on a Western PA oriented Pennsy layout if I wanted to make it look more realistic: 1. sulfur creeks ("cricks") and strip-mine cuts---unfortunately, until quite recently many of the streams and creeks in western PA ran a dirty orange like color from the sulfur drainage from the various mines that were all over the area. Unfortunately, most layouts that I have seen that try to model water try to make it look nice and clean, maybe with someone sitting in a boat or canoe in it. Nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near the water in one of these bodies of water except foolish adolescents like myself, who used to swim in the cleaner strip mine cuts at the risk of punishment from the parents. 2. slag piles-----there are slag piles everywhere in western PA. These are appropriate and necessary for almost all periods, as some of the mines were being abandoned early in the century and abandonment continued right through the 50's and 60's. Until fairly recently there was no requirement to clean up the environment, so piles of slag and mine tailings were simply left as is. For that matter, many of the buildings and facilities were left as is, cheaper to just leave them than to tear them down, i.e,. mine tipples, office buildings, old banks of beehive ovens for coke making. And remember, most of these things were immediately adjacent to the railroad tracks. 3. brick streets---there were and still are quite a few streets in the smaller towns of western PA that were paved with brick. Although many have since been asphalted over, there are still a number of brick streets visible in the area, once again often in the areas adjacent to the railroad tracks. Also, even on paved over brick streets one will find exposed paving bricks in the ubiquitous potholes. 4. trolley tracks in streets---even if you don't want to actually model traction, there were trolley tracks in street all over western PA. Do it right, make them broad gauge where appropriate. 5. telephone and electric wiring/pole systems---not much in underground lines in western PA. There were poles and wires everywhere, even in the middle of nowhere. Don't forget the string of poles with numerous cross arms that ran along the edge of the PRR main line. 6. Dirt in general----I agree that there seemed to be a certain overall patina on the buildings in this area. That dinginess seemed to cover the landscape as a whole. Maybe after finishing a layout and scenery, one should overspray the whole thing with a light mixture of grimy black!! Hope these observations are of interest from one who grew up and still lives in western PA. Ron Di Orio Jerry Britton wrote: On 5/20/03 12:48 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > What other details do you notice? Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone > poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very > area-specific. > So, let's open up this discussion! I am sure you've all given this a lot of > thought. Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31EFD.E6019B50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jerry is right, and how often do you see correctly-modeled foundations and basement walls.  Most often on layouts you seen houses and brick buildings mounted directly on the ground.  Many eastern homes and businesses were structured so the first floor elevation was at least two, more often 3-4 feet above the surrounding ground surface.  This was done for two reasons, one was elevation above anticipated water levels during flood events, the other being light into the interior.  Most foundation/basement walls had short windows in each wall to let natural light in.  You have to remember that most of these structures were put in prior to 1930 and had limited light sources.  Basements were used for laundrying, working, and active storage, not dead storage like today.  You needed those windows.  Jerry also brings up the coal doors and large access doors (Dorothy) to the basement that most folks don't model.  Foundations ran the gamut, from stone to brick to concrete block, but were ALWAYS there.
    And Ron, you brought up some really great ones.  You've obviously spent some time looking at the right stuff.  I also grew up in Pgh., and you hit it.  Those are all great elements for a layout.
    On my last layout I had a coal mining area with the orange water in the creek downstream of the mine drainage.  I added orange paint to the Envirotex just before the final pour.  I also had a green/grey creek downstream of the mill complex.  People used to say, "I guess this is before the Clean Water Act!"  On my new one I have a green creek, as the water in that one is actually green in appearance.  I think it has as much to do with the algae on the rocks and bed as it does with light reflectance or whatever off the nearby canopy.
    I also have a brick street on my new layout.  I used brick sheet, painted it fcc, glued it down, and used black stain on it to accentuate the gaps and draken the brick.  It is not quite right, as this street was really cobblestone, and cobblestone is slightly fatter (being stone and being thicker in dimension than brick), but I didn't want to wait to get it done.  I think in retrospect that I should have, as I think Faller makes this stuff.  But it gives the right feel. 
    Has anyone looked at the Walthers brick sheets with the track in them for trolley/streetcar modeling?  I bought a batch, but have not gotten to that part of the layout yet.  Does it look right?  I'd hate to have to carve over 12 feet of cobblestone street complete with trackage.  Argh.  Has anyone investigated the idea of doing cobblestone street trackage with trolley tracks as a reverse casting from a mold?  Like making a master, then making a rubber mold and casting sections in plaster? 
    Oh, has everyone seen that photo by John Vachon on the back cover of "Pennsy in the Steel City" (Kobus & Consoli)?  I got a blow up of the original on my wall in front of me right now.  Cobblestone street with tracks, brick sidewalk, Fire/Police call box, tele pole with wire rung steps, Fort Pitt neon beer sign, and a string of hoppers in front of USSteels Duquesne Works.  The BOMB!!!  It is my best reference and motivation photo.
    Great ideas, everybody!
Thanks.
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:40 AM
To: Jerry Britton; ELDEN GATWOOD; 'John Bruce'; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout

Okay, here's a few things that I would include on a Western PA oriented Pennsy layout if I wanted to make it look more realistic:
       
        1.  sulfur creeks  ("cricks") and strip-mine cuts---unfortunately, until quite recently many of the streams and creeks in western PA ran a dirty orange like color from the sulfur drainage from the various mines that were all over the area.  Unfortunately, most layouts that I have seen that try to model water try to make it look nice and clean, maybe with someone sitting in a boat or canoe in it.  Nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near the water in one of these bodies of water except foolish adolescents like myself, who used to swim in the cleaner strip mine cuts at the risk of punishment from the parents.
 
       2.  slag piles-----there are slag piles everywhere in western PA.  These are appropriate and necessary for almost all periods, as some of the mines were being abandoned early in the century and abandonment continued right through the 50's and 60's.  Until fairly recently there was no requirement to clean up the environment, so piles of slag and mine tailings were simply left as is.  For that matter, many of the buildings and facilities were left as is, cheaper to just leave them than to tear them down, i.e,. mine tipples, office buildings, old banks of beehive ovens for coke making.  And remember, most of these things were immediately adjacent to the railroad tracks.
 
      3.  brick streets---there were and still are quite a few streets in the smaller towns of western PA that were paved with brick.  Although many have since been asphalted over, there are still a number of brick streets visible in the area, once again often in the areas adjacent to the railroad tracks.  Also, even on paved over brick streets one will find exposed paving bricks in the ubiquitous potholes.
 
     4.  trolley tracks in streets---even if you don't want to actually model traction, there were trolley tracks in street all over western PA.  Do it right, make them broad gauge where appropriate.
 
     5.  telephone and electric wiring/pole systems---not much in underground lines in western PA.  There were poles and wires everywhere, even in the middle of nowhere.  Don't forget the string of poles with numerous cross arms that ran along the edge of the PRR main line.
 
     6.  Dirt in general----I agree that there seemed to be a certain overall patina on the buildings in this area. That dinginess seemed to cover the landscape as a whole.  Maybe after finishing a layout and scenery, one should overspray the whole thing with a light mixture of grimy black!!
 
  Hope these observations are of interest from one who grew up and still lives in western PA.
 
Ron Di Orio
 
Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote:
On 5/20/03 12:48 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote:

> What other details do you notice? Manholes covers, storm drains, telephone
> poles with lamps mounted to the side, mail boxes, sidewalks, were all very
> area-specific.
> So, let's open up this discussion! I am sure you've all given this a lot of
> thought.

Being up north, folks, don't forget to model the basements!!! ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


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------_=_NextPart_001_01C31EFD.E6019B50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout You have line-wrap disabled in your mail client, don't you? ;-) On Tue, 20 May 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Okay, here's a few things that I would include on a Western PA oriented Pennsy layout if I wanted to make it look more realistic: > > 1. sulfur creeks ("cricks") and strip-mine > cuts---unfortunately, until quite recently many of the streams and > creeks in western PA ran a dirty orange like color from the sulfur > drainage from the various mines that were all over the area. > Unfortunately, most layouts that I have seen that try to model water try > to make it look nice and clean, maybe with someone sitting in a boat or > canoe in it. Nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near the > water in one of these bodies of water except foolish adolescents like > myself, who used to swim in the cleaner strip mine cuts at the risk of > punishment from the parents. Where Tinkers Run flows into Brush Creek at the north end of Irwin still has the iron precipitate resulting from acid mine discharge. The remains of a bridge which carried a PRR branch off the original main alignment through Irwin are partially extant at this site. > 4. trolley tracks in streets---even if you don't want to actually > model traction, there were trolley tracks in street all over western PA. > Do it right, make them broad gauge where appropriate. Finding broad gauge trucks, if you do want to run, is hard. Some systems (Johnstown Traction is one) had standard gauge. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:39:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout From: Jerry Britton On 5/20/03 2:30 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > Jerry is right, and how often do you see correctly-modeled foundations and > basement walls. Most often on layouts you seen houses and brick buildings > mounted directly on the ground. Many eastern homes and businesses were > structured so the first floor elevation was at least two, more often 3-4 feet > above the surrounding ground surface. This was done for two reasons, one was > elevation above anticipated water levels during flood events, the other being > light into the interior. Most foundation/basement walls had short windows in > each wall to let natural light in. You have to remember that most of these > structures were put in prior to 1930 and had limited light sources. Basements > were used for laundrying, working, and active storage, not dead storage like > today. You needed those windows. Jerry also brings up the coal doors and > large access doors (Dorothy) to the basement that most folks don't model. > Foundations ran the gamut, from stone to brick to concrete block, but were > ALWAYS there. Hmmm. Maybe model the interior of an exposed basement with a guy building a model railroad! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:54:36 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Gents, This is all good info being exchanged to be sure. As one who only gets to visit the Old Country (PA) on too-rare occasions, perhaps my impressions of things Pennsy are a bit different from those who have the good fortune to live there. There may be some blurring of the general setting with the Pennsy itself, though, as the slag heaps and houses look the same alongside the Pennsy as they do the B&O or Reading. Still good info however. Last summer I had to drive over from Altoona to Johnstown, to trade off a rental car whose A/C wasn't working. After a lovely drive through some wonderful scenery, I was realy struck by the approach into Johnstown on the freeway. Suddenly the road was in a narrow valley, descending quickly, and suddenly I was in the fringes of downtown. The car rental place was on, I think, Bedford Street, less than half a block from the old B&O freight station. A track ran right through the parking lot of the rental agency. I had an hour to kill and poked around a bit. Now this was more like it, I was thinking, compared to, say, Madison, Wisconsin. The city lay in a steep and wooded valley, laid alongside a river. The streets were narrow, some angled off, everything seemed pressed together. Brick buildings everywhere, a stream cut through it all. I had been through here on the train many times but had never seen this.This seemed like Pennsy's natural setting, as much so as Delaware Ave, Kensington, Fort Wayne or Chicago Union Station.Somehow I figured if I could make my way to the depot I could catch a look at the Admiral heading east, or the St.Louisan. At least some Sharks on a coal drag. Just one more face of the Pennsy. That old line's in my blood for good and I like it just about any way it comes. I'd like to have ridden the gas electric from Camden to Trenton, the Buffalo Day Express all the way form Baltimore to Buffalo and the Northern Arrow up to the Straight. And I should have taken advantage of one of those no-cost optional routes from Chicago to Philley via Logansport, Kokomo, Richmond and Columbus or Cinncy once in a while. Oh well, I guess that's one of the reason's we try to recreate it on the layout, or at least our favorite parts. Regards, Barry Peltier ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÅ¢¶¬²+-jwÂ+a¶¬–+-þ™^jǯŠÈ­†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(§÷( !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] 13 61 & Altoona Museum Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:29:18 -0400 All this recent discussion about 1361 raises again in my mind my ongoing questions about the Altoona Museum and 1361. Anyone who has ever been at least remotely involved with the operation of live steam knows what an expensive proposition it is. Getting the beast rebuilt and running is just the tip of the iceberg. The next questions that come up are where to run it, how to pay for operating costs, and how to pay for insurance, which has sunk many a well funded steam operation. For information on all active steam locomotives in the USA, point your browser to http://www.steamcentral.com/ and click on Active Steam Locomotives. There seem to be 148 or so, counting museums and tourist lines. Given that the Altoona Museum is in financial trouble and as far as I know doesn't have a place to operate 1361 except for possibly a piece of test track on the museum grounds, isn't restoring the locomotive to operating condition perhaps a pipe dream? Might those funds be better spent on other aspects of the museum's financial troubles? Might it be feasible to lease the locomotive to someone who could/would operate it and hopefully generate publicity and possibly even a bit of income for the museum, returning it to the museum at some future date? Is there anyone on this list associated with the museum in Altoona who can comment based on facts and first hand knowledge? I'd like nothing better than to see 1361 back in regular operation and the Altoona museum back on firm footing. Hoping for the best, but fearing the realities of steam operation, Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:32:33 -0400 List Gize: A big thing for an eatern layout is having eastern foliage. This means a lot of pine trees and hardwoods. (Like we can't have a pine tree and cactus on the horshoe curve. Unless you have the Pink Flamingo Hotel ;)) And also the changing of the leaves in fall and such. One other factor for scenery is dirt. There is a high quantity of clay soil in pa. Limestone and sandy patches mixed with regualr soil can also be included. This is because at one time pennsylvania was covered by ocean. You need to break everything down. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:38:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 & Altoona Museum From: Jerry Britton On 5/20/03 3:29 PM, William Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > Given that the Altoona Museum is in financial trouble and as far as I know > doesn't have a place to operate 1361 except for possibly a piece of test > track on the museum grounds, isn't restoring the locomotive to operating > condition perhaps a pipe dream? Might those funds be better spent on other > aspects of the museum's financial troubles? Might it be feasible to lease > the locomotive to someone who could/would operate it and hopefully generate > publicity and possibly even a bit of income for the museum, returning it to > the museum at some future date? > While leasing the 1361 to another location (Steamtown or Strasburg) would indeed create income for the museum, I am 95% confident they will not do it. Having had direct e-mail contact and telephone contact with them, I am confident that they believe the 1361 will be their savior. Unfortunately, it will only create a surge of interest for the first six months, I believe, since they won't have a place to be running it. (I seriously doubt NS will allow them on the main line any time other than RailFest, and that is still at NS' discretion.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:42:43 -0500 Jerry, et.al.: Have any of you ever investigated dollhouse miniatures for ideas and structures for your layouts? Or, looked at dollhouse idea books for finishing techniques? Quarter inch dollhouse items are great for O-scale modeling and dollhouse dollhouse items are great for n-scale work. No, I didn't stutter. They do make dollhouses to fit inside of dollhouses. I'm modeling O-scale and my wife does dollhouse miniatures. The two go great together. (Oh yes, she is also getting started in n-scale.) Oh yes, looking for coal loads for your freights? Try your local aquarium shop. The charcoal for aquariums filters is from bituminous coal and looks great. By the way, keep up the discussion. It has been great. Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:49:06 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Jerry wrote: >Hmmm. Maybe model the interior of an exposed basement with a guy building a >model railroad! > This is not as far off as you might think... I have seen an outdoor G scale layout with a Z scale train running behind one of the houses... Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --0-632119033-1053460222=:52547 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Elden et al: Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus "cobblestone" roads. Those of us in the area know what we're talking about. While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty buff/yellow color. These are, however, regular in size, not like European cobblestones. Barry's comments about the terrain bring up another factor. There isn't much of anything that is flat around here. Those houses sitting on foundations should also be sitting on the sides of hills, in most cases. How about billboards? There used to be billboards everywhere in this area, and there are still a lot more around western PA than in other areas of the country. And many of those should be for locally produced products, Iron City, Fort Pitt and Duquesne Beers, Isaly's products, etc. Another thing that might be considered is ethnic names for businesses. Older businesses such as feed stores will tend to have English, Scotch-Irish, or German names. More modern businesses, restaurants, grocery stores, etc., will often have Italian or Slavic names. Same thing with churches. Model a town and there are probably three or four Presbyterian churches and a Catholic Church, parish name often reflecting what immigrants were recruited to work the local mine. You will often find churches with exotic architecture, i.e, Greek and Orthodox styles once again depending on who immigrated to that area. How about classic duplex mining houses? A string of four or five of them to represent the "patch", complete with outbuildings behind them (and vegetable gardens) and a better house to represent the "bosses" houses. Will add more if I think of them. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-632119033-1053460222=:52547 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Elden et al:
 
Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus "cobblestone" roads.  Those of us in the area know what we're talking about.  While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty buff/yellow color.  These are, however, regular in size, not like European cobblestones.
 
Barry's comments about the terrain bring up another factor.  There isn't much of anything that is flat around here.  Those houses sitting on foundations should also be sitting on the sides of hills, in most cases. 
 
How about billboards?  There used to be billboards everywhere in this area, and there are still a lot more around western PA than in other areas of the country.   And many of those should be for locally produced products, Iron City, Fort Pitt and Duquesne Beers, Isaly's products, etc.
 
Another thing that might be considered is ethnic names for businesses.  Older businesses such as feed stores will tend to have English, Scotch-Irish, or German names.  More modern businesses, restaurants, grocery stores, etc., will often have Italian or Slavic names.
 
Same thing with churches.  Model a town and there are probably three or four Presbyterian churches and a Catholic Church, parish name often reflecting what immigrants were recruited to work the local mine.  You will often find churches with exotic architecture, i.e, Greek and Orthodox styles once again depending on who immigrated to that area.
 
How about classic duplex mining houses?  A string of four or five of them to represent the "patch", complete with outbuildings behind them (and vegetable gardens) and a better house to represent the "bosses" houses.
 
Will add more if I think of them.
 
Ron Di Orio 
  

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-632119033-1053460222=:52547-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:57:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout From: Jerry Britton On 5/20/03 3:50 PM, Ronald Di Orio (prr2249@yahoo.com) wrote: > How about billboards? There used to be billboards everywhere in this area, > and there are still a lot more around western PA than in other areas of the > country. I have a bunch of National Geographics from 1953-54. I plan to cut out ads, scan and resize them, and use them as posters and billboards. > And many of those should be for locally produced products, Iron > City, Fort Pitt and Duquesne Beers, Isaly's products, etc. > There's a web site that documents the Isaly's history and has photos of most of the locations they ever operated. I may sneak one a little further east, to Cresson. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Another PRR Item Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:14:31 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C31ED1.C0011380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another one of those very subtle items that says PRR is a particular = type of swing bridge, found apparently in Delaware and southern New = Jersey. Plastruct has a kit shown at = http://www.plastruct.com/Pages/Action.lasso?-database=3DPI.PRODUCTS.fp5&-= Layout=3DComplete&-Response=3DOnlineProductDetail.html&-op=3Deq&CCode=3DK= IT-1007&-Search There was also an RMC article on scratchbuilding a = bridge like this. One or more such bridges remain, apparently upgraded = to power operation, on Conrail Shared Assets. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C31ED1.C0011380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another one of those very subtle items that says PRR = is a=20 particular type of swing bridge, found apparently in Delaware and = southern New=20 Jersey.  Plastruct has a kit shown at http://www.plastruct.com/Pag= es/Action.lasso?-database=3DPI.PRODUCTS.fp5&-Layout=3DComplete&-R= esponse=3DOnlineProductDetail.html&-op=3Deq&CCode=3DKIT-1007&= -Search =20 There was also an RMC article on scratchbuilding a bridge like = this.  =20 One or more such bridges remain, apparently upgraded to power operation, = on=20 Conrail Shared Assets.
------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C31ED1.C0011380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Symbol Freight Numbers Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:23:19 -0400 Jerry & List, When I worked for the PRR in Baltimore I asked one of the old heads where some of these train designations came from. For example, the local that served industries from Baltimore South to Washington was BP125, which everyone called "BP one and a quarter". I was told that these were probably the train numbers used by the original railroad, with its initials added, as in "BP" for Baltimore & Potomac or "CV" for Cumberland Valley, or the Division of the PRR, when each division numbered its own locals.. Seemed reasonable at the time to me. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: [PRR] Symbol Freight Numbers > In the case of symbol freights appearing in the "Arranged Freight > Schedules"... > > The symbol often depicts the origination/destination, such as ENPI might be > Enola to Pittsburgh. In other cases, such as CV, it indicates the branch it > runs on (Cumberland Valley). > > However, is there a rhyme or reason for the number that follows? > > I know the LCL trains, which had high priority, were low, such as 2, 5, 7, > etc. > > The CV trains were high...60, 88, etc. Since there were only a couple of > these in 1954, why weren't they 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.? > > Is the number an over-the-entire-system priority rating of some sort? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:34:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Monongahela Division I, II, III --part1_189.19a9ee45.2bfbeb70_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/19/03 4:02:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] A question for Pennsy modelers... > From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:11:06 -0700 > > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand > this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31E32.04874D80 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all; > I can't speak to all the questions, but I am modeling a segment of > the PRR's Mon Branch in the early 60's. All my equipment is being built > for > that purpose. I am not an elitist, but chose this as my interest area. > When I eventually complete all the aspects of the RR that I can, I will > hope > it a fairly faithful rendition of what I chose, including its operations. > I > have to learn a great deal yet on signalling on this part of the railroad, > but I am getting a decent understanding of operations on this part of the > Pennsy. I certainly find myself to have been extremely fortunate to have > been privy to more info on this subject that most folks have been. I will > just have to get used to the idea of doing things the way they did them, > and > not worry about my convenience or desires. It really doesn't bother me, if > I were freelancing I would have made that choice correctly, too. > That being said, life is compromise. I can't model a truly scale > piece of reality due to space constraints. However, I am trying to > duplicate a compressed form of the trackplan in that area. And it's > surroundings. But finally to get to my point (whew, you say). I had a > gent > over recently who "critiqued" my plan for me (unasked) and told me that my > operations would be much better if I, "x, y, and z....(changed my track > plan, crossover locations, etc.)" I thought it was quite interesting, as > my > track plan and operation is what was there. While I have compromised on > length, I have not on crossover locations, etc. So, perhaps prototyping > does have its limitations, after all. And one can still be criticized for > modeling the prototype, too. For those that model freelanced stuff, breath > a heavy sigh of relief, without regret. I, for one, certainly will not > ever > criticize your choice. There is no right answer to this, folks. > Have a great week, > Elden > Elden, you're one of three people I know modeling the Monongahela Division at various periods. I'll bet the three layouts are all very different (other than names). And all three are fun... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_189.19a9ee45.2bfbeb70_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/19/03 4:02:55 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: RE: [PRR] A question f= or Pennsy modelers...
From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:11:06 -0700

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C31E32.04874D80
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Hi all;
    I can't speak to all the questions, but I am modeling a s= egment of
the PRR's Mon Branch in the early 60's.  All my equipment is being buil= t for
that purpose.  I am not an elitist, but chose this as my interest area.=
When I eventually complete all the aspects of the RR that I can, I will hope=
it a fairly faithful rendition of what I chose, including its operations.&nb= sp; I
have to learn a great deal yet on signalling on this part of the railroad, but I am getting a decent understanding of operations on this part of the Pennsy.  I certainly find myself to have been extremely fortunate to ha= ve
been privy to more info on this subject that most folks have been.  I w= ill
just have to get used to the idea of doing things the way they did them, and=
not worry about my convenience or desires.  It really doesn't bother me= , if
I were freelancing I would have made that choice correctly, too.
    That being said, life is compromise.  I can't model=20= a truly scale
piece of reality due to space constraints.  However, I am trying to
duplicate a compressed form of the trackplan in that area.  And it's surroundings.  But finally to get to my point (whew, you say).  I=20= had a gent
over recently who "critiqued" my plan for me (unasked) and told me that my operations would be much better if I, "x, y, and z....(changed my track
plan, crossover locations, etc.)"  I thought it was quite interesting,=20= as my
track plan and operation is what was there.  While I have compromised o= n
length, I have not on crossover locations, etc.  So, perhaps prototypin= g
does have its limitations, after all. And one can still be criticized for modeling the prototype, too.  For those that model freelanced stuff, br= eath
a heavy sigh of relief, without regret.  I, for one, certainly will not= ever
criticize your choice.  There is no right answer to this, folks.
Have a great week,
Elden


Elden, you're one of three people I know modeling the Monongahela Division a= t various periods.  I'll bet the three layouts are all very different (= other than names).  And all three are fun...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_189.19a9ee45.2bfbeb70_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Prototypes for Unorthodox PRR Layouts Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:50:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C31ED6.BBB5E300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've always been fascinated by the late-stage PRR operations in places = like southern New Jersey and the Delmarva Peninsula. When I was an = adolescent, we lived in Maryland and got over to the Eastern Shore = pretty frequently, enough to see the very intriguing bits and pieces = that were left in places like Oxford. Or the Pemberton branch and = ex-PRR Union Transportation Company. Or the truncated versions of the = Camden and Amboy Back Road. I was a very naughty boy and SKIPPED the = PRRT&HS business meeting a few weeks ago to drive back up to areas = beyond those that were covered in the bus tour and found some very = interesting industrial trackage out in the middle of nowhere near = Cranbury Station. (I would love to hear from anyone who knows more = about this). I think you could design a very effective and interesting layout of the = types described at the site http://www.modeltrainsinternational.co.uk/ = (while this magazine comes from the UK, there are many creative small = US-prototype layouts described on the site) or http://carendt.com/ or = http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/small-layouts.html using some of = these out-of-the-way prototypes. Just be sure to incorporate some = local architecture!! ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C31ED6.BBB5E300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've always been fascinated by the late-stage PRR = operations=20 in places like southern New Jersey and the Delmarva Peninsula.  = When I was=20 an adolescent, we lived in Maryland and got over to the Eastern Shore = pretty=20 frequently, enough to see the very intriguing bits and pieces that were = left in=20 places like Oxford.    Or the Pemberton branch and ex-PRR = Union=20 Transportation Company.  Or the truncated versions of the Camden = and Amboy=20 Back Road.  I was a very naughty boy and SKIPPED the PRRT&HS = business=20 meeting a few weeks ago to drive back up to areas beyond those that were = covered=20 in the bus tour and found some very interesting industrial trackage out = in the=20 middle of nowhere near Cranbury Station.   (I would love to = hear from=20 anyone who knows more about this).
 
I think you could design a very effective and = interesting=20 layout of the types described at the site http://www.modeltrain= sinternational.co.uk/ (while=20 this magazine comes from the UK, there are many creative small = US-prototype=20 layouts described on the site) or http://carendt.com/ or http:/= /www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/small-layouts.html using=20 some of these out-of-the-way prototypes.   Just be sure to = incorporate=20 some local architecture!!
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C31ED6.BBB5E300-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:00:52 -0400 From: Martin Harriss Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout > Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout > From: "Jeff Warner" > Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:49:06 -0400 > > Jerry wrote: > > >Hmmm. Maybe model the interior of an exposed basement with a guy building a > >model railroad! > > > This is not as far off as you might think... I have seen an outdoor G > scale layout with a Z scale train running behind one of the houses... > > Jeff Rick Spano of Trenton, NJ has a hobby shop building on his layout that has a train running in a circle in the window. And his layout is N scale! Very impressive, as are the other animations on his layout, even if it's not PRR. Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:35:41 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31F17.C30C7BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ron, Good ones! I have spent the last twenty five years trying to get a source for old advertising billboards IN the Pittsburgh area. The real actual billboards, not made up ones. Lots of companies market those cutesy turn of the century ad sheets, but nothing like what we need. And scanned beer bottle labels don't cut it. Iron City, Duquesne and Fort Pitt all had active advertising campaigns, and you can see portions of many of their billboards in photos (and memory), but Pittsburgh Outdoor Advertising and others, as well as Pittsburgh Brewing, will not allow access to those files. I don't know why. They never write back. I have scaled portions of color photos and cropped the ads out as digital files, but there is something wrong with almost every one of them (wires, parallelogramming, but mostly graininess from blowing them up from a small image). I do have a few good ones that I will eventually scale for use in the Walthers billboard frames. Keep them coming! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:50 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry Britton; 'John Bruce'; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Elden et al: Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus "cobblestone" roads. Those of us in the area know what we're talking about. While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty buff/yellow color. These are, however, regular in size, not like European cobblestones. Barry's comments about the terrain bring up another factor. There isn't much of anything that is flat around here. Those houses sitting on foundations should also be sitting on the sides of hills, in most cases. How about billboards? There used to be billboards everywhere in this area, and there are still a lot more around western PA than in other areas of the country. And many of those should be for locally produced products, Iron City, Fort Pitt and Duquesne Beers, Isaly's products, etc. Another thing that might be considered is ethnic names for businesses. Older businesses such as feed stores will tend to have English, Scotch-Irish, or German names. More modern businesses, restaurants, grocery stores, etc., will often have Italian or Slavic names. Same thing with churches. Model a town and there are probably three or four Presbyterian churches and a Catholic Church, parish name often reflecting what immigrants were recruited to work the local mine. You will often find churches with exotic architecture, i.e, Greek and Orthodox styles once again depending on who immigrated to that area. How about classic duplex mining houses? A string of four or five of them to represent the "patch", complete with outbuildings behind them (and vegetable gardens) and a better house to represent the "bosses" houses. Will add more if I think of them. Ron Di Orio _____ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31F17.C30C7BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ron,  Good ones!
    I have spent the last twenty five years trying to get a source for old advertising billboards IN the Pittsburgh area.  The real actual billboards, not made up ones.  Lots of companies market those cutesy turn of the century ad sheets, but nothing like what we need.  And scanned beer bottle labels don't cut it.
      Iron City, Duquesne and Fort Pitt all had active advertising campaigns, and you can see portions of many of their billboards in photos (and memory), but Pittsburgh Outdoor Advertising and others, as well as Pittsburgh Brewing, will not allow access to those files.  I don't know why.  They never write back.
    I have scaled portions of color photos and cropped the ads out as digital files, but there is something wrong with almost every one of them (wires, parallelogramming, but mostly graininess from blowing them up from a small image).  I do have a few good ones that I will eventually scale for use in the Walthers billboard frames. 
    Keep them coming!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:50 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; Jerry Britton; 'John Bruce'; PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout



Elden et al:
 
Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus "cobblestone" roads.  Those of us in the area know what we're talking about.  While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty buff/yellow color.  These are, however, regular in size, not like European cobblestones.
 
Barry's comments about the terrain bring up another factor.  There isn't much of anything that is flat around here.  Those houses sitting on foundations should also be sitting on the sides of hills, in most cases. 
 
How about billboards?  There used to be billboards everywhere in this area, and there are still a lot more around western PA than in other areas of the country.   And many of those should be for locally produced products, Iron City, Fort Pitt and Duquesne Beers, Isaly's products, etc.
 
Another thing that might be considered is ethnic names for businesses.  Older businesses such as feed stores will tend to have English, Scotch-Irish, or German names.  More modern businesses, restaurants, grocery stores, etc., will often have Italian or Slavic names.
 
Same thing with churches.  Model a town and there are probably three or four Presbyterian churches and a Catholic Church, parish name often reflecting what immigrants were recruited to work the local mine.  You will often find churches with exotic architecture, i.e, Greek and Orthodox styles once again depending on who immigrated to that area.
 
How about classic duplex mining houses?  A string of four or five of them to represent the "patch", complete with outbuildings behind them (and vegetable gardens) and a better house to represent the "bosses" houses.
 
Will add more if I think of them.
 
Ron Di Orio 
  

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31F17.C30C7BF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:06:03 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] PRR E8 excursion photos Hey All, Took these photos and videos today at Valley Forge and at Royersford. They are PRR locomotives, but at Reading stations. Threw them up quick (after some editing).. Post more later... Hopefully my server will be able to stand up to the load. http://charyna.homeunix.com/trains/20030522/ -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] another factor that makes a PRR Layout Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:23:29 -0400 guys, Let us not forget the "typical" mill town home. Front door opening onto a "brick" street, with a 48" wide x 12" deep step,(stoop couldn't be big, cause the streets were so narrow) and the back door opened onto a back porch where the ole folks had a small garden and the ubiquitous bathtub with a plaster religious statue. Ahh Braddock and Homestead. Let's see a kit maker do that! And the whole thing was facing the tracks. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:33:19 -0400 1361: I doubt the SRR will lease the 1361 - maybe a weekend fling, in conjunction with RRMofPA. Leaman Place: A new station complex and shops, westbound passengers will not cross the tracks at grade. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:42:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: --part1_6b.11683004.2bfc2582_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s? I have always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the light side. Chris B #1918 --part1_6b.11683004.2bfc2582_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heav= y as the K4s?  I have always been under the impression that Strasburg's= motive power was all on the light side.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_6b.11683004.2bfc2582_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:45:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Connection (was: The Sweet and the Sour) --part1_48.1d08d921.2bfc2612_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would imagine that, at least in the beginning, any westbound Keystone Service train that is going to make the Strasburg stop would be crossed over to the track closest to the transfer platform. Chris B #1918 --part1_48.1d08d921.2bfc2612_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would imagine that, at least in the beginning, any w= estbound Keystone Service train that is going to make the Strasburg stop wou= ld be crossed over to the track closest to the transfer platform.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_48.1d08d921.2bfc2612_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:03:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: --------------050103020008030702030507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to Chris, Jerry, and the list: In the late 1960s Strasburg hauled all of the PRR and other steam engines -- the M1, K4, L1, etc., as well as the NKP Berkshire, inbound en route to the museum, and it has handled a couple of active GG1s needing some help at the drop table--as well as the several GG1s that have gone into the museum (4800, 4935) and the 4859 ,which went in for restoration and then out again en route to Harrisburg for display. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------------- Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s? I > have always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power > was all on the light side. > > Chris B #1918 --------------050103020008030702030507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to Chris, Jerry, and the list:

In the late 1960s Strasburg hauled all of the PRR and other steam engines -- the M1, K4, L1, etc., as well as the NKP Berkshire, inbound en route to the museum, and it has handled a couple of active GG1s needing some help at the drop table--as well as the several GG1s that have gone into the museum (4800, 4935) and the 4859 ,which went in for restoration and then out again en route to Harrisburg for display.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
-------------------------------
Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote:
Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s?  I have always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the light side.

Chris B  #1918

--------------050103020008030702030507-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:15:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: --part1_154.1f8cbc93.2bfc2d29_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/20/2003 9:09:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes: > In the late 1960s Strasburg hauled all of the PRR and other steam engines -- > the M1, K4, L1, etc., as well as the NKP Berkshire, inbound en route to the > museum, and it has handled a couple of active GG1s needing some help at the > drop table--as well as the several GG1s that have gone into the museum > (4800, 4935) and the 4859 ,which went in for restoration and then out again > en route to Harrisburg for display. > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > ------------------------------- > Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > >> Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s? I >> have always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was >> all on the light side. >> >> Chris B # > What is the driver axle loading of the "7002" Atlantic vs. a K4s, the former having been used in Strasburg service for a number of years? Also, it's likely that the E6s has a higher axle loading than a K4s. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_154.1f8cbc93.2bfc2d29_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/20/2= 003 9:09:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes:


In the late 1960s Strasburg= hauled all of the PRR and other steam engines -- the M1, K4, L1, etc., as w= ell as the NKP Berkshire, inbound en route to the museum, and it has handled= a couple of active GG1s needing some help at the drop table--as well as the= several GG1s that have gone into the museum (4800, 4935) and the 4859 ,whic= h went in for restoration and then out again en route to Harrisburg for disp= lay.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
-------------------------------
Chrisandbelton2@aol.com w= rote:
Can the Strasburg trackage=20= handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s?  I have always been under the=20= impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the light side.

Chris B  #



What is the driver axle loading of the "7002" Atlantic vs. a K4s,=20
the former having been used in Strasburg service for a number=20
of years? Also, it's likely that the E6s has a higher axle loading
than a K4s.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_154.1f8cbc93.2bfc2d29_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:24:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C31F16.3D695280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The SRR has significantly rebuilt it's roadbed during the last several years. The 7002's per driver load is about 58,000lbs ((a big guess - total engine weight listed as 191,000lbs - PRR standard of the time is about 60,000 lbs per driver, - E2 specs call for 109,000lbs (54500 per driver) on drivers with 36,000+ on the front truck and 31,000- on the rear truck {total weight listed as 183,500} add in the additional weight of 7500lbs hopefully all on the drivers or 58,000lbs)) and it ran the rails for several years. Big concern would be the curve coming into Leamen place. It would take a lot of pounding on the outside rail. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 8:43 PM To: Wayne Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s? I have always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the light side. Chris B #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C31F16.3D695280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The SRR has significantly rebuilt it’s roadbed = during the last several years.

Th= e 7002’s per driver load is about 58,000lbs ((a big guess – total engine = weight listed as 191,000lbs – PRR standard of the time is about 60,000 lbs per = driver, - E2 specs call for 109,000lbs (54500 per driver) on drivers with 36,000+ on = the front truck and 31,000- on the rear truck {total weight listed as = 183,500} add in the additional weight of 7500lbs hopefully all on the drivers or = 58,000lbs)) and it ran the rails for several years.  Big concern would be the curve coming into Leamen place.  It would take a lot of = pounding on the outside rail.

 

 

Cos

=

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

=

Small = business IT services.

=

 

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

=

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

=

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

=

http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

=

<= span class=3DEmailStyle15> 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, = 2003 8:43 PM
To: Wayne Betty; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Strasburg stuff:

 

Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s?  I have = always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the = light side.

Chris B  #1918

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C31F16.3D695280-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:39:46 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31F18.5503E2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did not finish my last post before I hit the send button. The standard K4s had a weight on drivers of 209,300lbs (68,400 - 71,100 - 69,800) ((PRR 109-J of 5/15/48)) or about 10,000lbs more per driver then the E7s class. Total weight listed in working order 284,500 empty, 320,000 in working order with a 110 P 75a tender. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of BBReynolds@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 9:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: In a message dated 5/20/2003 9:09:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes: In the late 1960s Strasburg hauled all of the PRR and other steam engines -- the M1, K4, L1, etc., as well as the NKP Berkshire, inbound en route to the museum, and it has handled a couple of active GG1s needing some help at the drop table--as well as the several GG1s that have gone into the museum (4800, 4935) and the 4859 ,which went in for restoration and then out again en route to Harrisburg for display. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------------- Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: Can the Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s? I have always been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the light side. Chris B # What is the driver axle loading of the "7002" Atlantic vs. a K4s, the former having been used in Strasburg service for a number of years? Also, it's likely that the E6s has a higher axle loading than a K4s. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31F18.5503E2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I = did not finish my last post before I hit the send = button.

&n= bsp;

The standard K4s had a weight on drivers of 209,300lbs (68,400 – 71,100 – 69,800) ((PRR 109-J of = 5/15/48))

or about 10,000lbs more per driver then the = E7s class.   Total weight = listed in working order 284,500 empty, 320,000 in working order with a 110 P = 75a tender.

 

 

 

Cos

=

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

=

Small = business IT services.

=

 

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

=

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

=

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

=

http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

=

<= span class=3DEmailStyle17> 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of BBReynolds@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, = 2003 9:15 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Strasburg stuff:

 

In a message dated 5/20/2003 9:09:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes:



In the late 1960s Strasburg hauled all of the PRR and other steam engines -- = the M1, K4, L1, etc., as well as the NKP Berkshire, inbound en route to the = museum, and it has handled a couple of active GG1s needing some help at the drop = table--as well as the several GG1s that have gone into the museum (4800, 4935) and = the 4859 ,which went in for restoration and then out again en route to = Harrisburg for display.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
-------------------------------
Chrisandbelton2@aol.com = wrote:

Can the = Strasburg trackage handle a locomotive as heavy as the K4s?  I have always = been under the impression that Strasburg's motive power was all on the light = side.

Chris B  #





What is the driver axle loading of the "7002" Atlantic vs. a = K4s,
the former having been used in Strasburg service for a number
of years? Also, it's likely that the E6s has a higher axle loading
than a K4s.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside = PA<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31F18.5503E2A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: Chris, List, As Dan stated a second ago, the Strasburg Railroad could handle the K4's weight but I doubt its needs. The K4 needs a place where it can stretch her legs. The speed limitations on the Strasburg Railroad is probably quite limited. I'm talking Tourist Railroad speed. Whats that, 10-12 mph? Not too good. I hate to say it but Steamtown looks to be the place where the 1361, although not on home tracks, can strutt her stuff. I could imagine a lease deal being struck between the Railroad Memorial Museum and Steamtown to have this happen. Like others have said, the museum is on shakey grounds in Altoona and if the BoD thinks a deal could be done to help support themselves by leasing the 1361, short term or long term, then why not? Other rumors I have heard for the future of 1361 is to run her out in NJ, The Hoilidaysburg Branch and even back to the Bald Eagle Branch. With Steamtown having the know how and the facilities, one would think they would be the leading candidate. My preferance/dream would be to see the 1361 on weekend service between Altoona and Galitzin and return. But that will never happen so anywhere on the high iron will do........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:01:35 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Symbol Freight Numbers Re: The symbol often depicts the origination/destination, such as ENPI might be Enola to Pittsburgh. The specific symbol above was not a typical PRR symbol, rather a very fine train designation system developed post PRR, during the Conrail era if I recall correctly, which unfortunately was abandoned in the post Conrail era.. The PRR O/D pair symbols were a lot more cryptic, typically one letter for each segment of the pair, somewhat rarely two characters. Many of the symbols used represented the O/D pairs and also sometimes if the train was extended beyond the original O/D points the original symbol reflected the new locations beyond the original run, or less that the original run. For example, NC = New Castle-Conway, actually also sometimes ran beyond New Castle to Wheatland. Also sometimes the same letter was used to represent two different locations, e.g., S= Sharon, S=Shire Oaks, C= Camden, C= Conway two which quickly come to mind - there are others. Then we have H = Harrisburg and G = Harrisburg. Sometimes the symbols reflected the specific function of the train, such as LCL = Less than Carload Lot, NF = No Feed (cattle east), TRS = Tank, Reefer, Stock (mtys west), etc., etc. And, as was mentioned the railroad over which it ran, corporate name or division name (some with only a single character, A, D, N, P, S, W, etc.). Then there was ED = Enola- Detroit also ED = Eastern Division of the PFW&C. Regarding the numbers, in this case the lower numbers (1 and 2) where the inter-divisional Enola-Detroit trains, while the higher number ED's where the Pittsburgh and Lake Division Inter-and Intra-divisional trains. It was not a very straight forward, user friendly method of identifying trains, but to those of us who grew up with it and used it, it was somewhat understandable. It would be a tremendous research project to try and figure it all out, if it really could be completely rationalized at all. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:48:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --- ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Jerry is right, and how often do you see correctly-modeled > foundations and > basement walls. Most often on layouts you seen houses and brick > buildings > mounted directly on the ground. Many eastern homes and businesses > were > structured so the first floor elevation was at least two, more > often 3-4 > feet above the surrounding ground surface. Yes, but... Houses in coal towns (patches) tended not to have basements, standing up on brick or stone piers 2 or 3 feet high with boards closing off the space under the house. Here and there in "real towns" you would find a house with a basement under a part of the house (you have to have some place to put he furnace and caol bin) but only a crawl space under the rest of the house. Granted, these tended to be in the older and/or less prosperous parts of town. > This was done for two > reasons, > one was elevation above anticipated water levels during flood > events, the > other being light into the interior. More like to get sufficient headroom in the basement without having to dig so deep that a) you couldn't afford the labor b) you got into the ground water c) you hit solid rock. > Most foundation/basement walls had short windows in each > wall to let natural light in. Sometimes, windows taller than the exposed height of the foundation wall. Pits lined with brick, stone, or corrugated steel outside eash window. And yes, they had to have drains, and somebody had to rake the leaves out of them, and they were a pain in the butt. > You have to remember > that most of these structures were put in prior to 1930 and had > limited light sources. Basements were used for laundrying, > working, and active storage,... Don't forget the several trips a day to shovel coal into the furnace and shovel the ashs out of the furnace. > not dead storage like today. You needed those windows. > Jerry also brings up the coal doors... A common arrangement for houses in towns was, if the house had a porch, was to have th ecoal bin under the porch with the coal door in the front wall facing the street. That was handy for the coal man who could park his truck at the curb, bridge a chute from the side wall of the truck to the caol door and shovel in the coal. The coal bin itself could be roughly finished inside, after all, it's just a coal bin. If there was no porch, it was still customary to have the coal bin in the front of the basement with the coal door facing the street. > and large access doors (Dorothy) to the basement > that most folks don't model. Foundations ran the gamut, from stone > to brick > to concrete block, but were ALWAYS there. See above regarding coal town housing. Another thing to bear in mind: Houses in towns tended to be close together. Three feet between the side walls of neighboring houses was not uncommon. Thus, things like coal doors and outside basement steps had to be at the front or the back. There would be no way to get to them at the sides. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:42:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] #1361 From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Listers, Maybe I'm naïve, but I just can't imagine #1361 at Steamtown or Strasburg. I don't think it's appropriate -- especially since all that Juniata-built MP already sits at Strasburg. I don't know the current status of the Altoona Museum nor the 1/4 Round project. Maybe Dave S. or someone on the list from Altoona can bring us up to date. -- Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs _____________________________________________†\ / =ALTOONA= | / | \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | \____________________________________________ | \ | \| -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:54:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 From: Jerry Britton On 5/21/03 8:42 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote: > Maybe I'm naïve, but I just can't imagine #1361 at Steamtown or Strasburg. > I don't think it's appropriate -- especially since all that Juniata-built MP > already sits at Strasburg. So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? > I don't know the current status of the Altoona > Museum nor the 1/4 Round project. Maybe Dave S. or someone on the list from > Altoona can bring us up to date. > I was in Altoona a few weeks ago. The roof is on the roundhouse, but no walls. Here's a URL to a photo on my site... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/00001/00468_m.jpg You'll also note that it's not a 1/4 roundhouse as advertised. It's ONE STALL!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:09:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas From: Jerry Britton I'm building the 1954 Penn Texas. I have numerous consist reports that gives me the cars that I need, but I have no spotting reports/references as to "typical" power assigned. The Penn Texas, though a prestige train, was not one of the "highest tier" trains, such as the Broadway and the Liberty. These likely had E8's by 1954. Anyone have any power reports for the Penn Texas? I'm thinking maybe an Alco PA1/PB1/PA1 lashup. I have a set of Kato's in DGLE five stripe that are waiting for an assignment! The train will have 16 cars upon departing Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:15:31 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Gentry, I too am greatly enjoying this discussion. I'm more familar with Pennsy's hometown of Philadelphia as regards some of these details than I am out on the Main Line points, but one little detail sticks out as being common to town or city. In the older neighborhoods in Quaker City districts like Kensington, the sidewalks as well as streets were often brick.(Or brick-like paving stones in the street). The difference in elevation was often very little between the street and sidewalks, a few inchs if that, especially if the street had been paved over with asphalt. And the narrowness of the streets often made them designated as one-way. Don't forget to park at least some of the residents cars partly up on the sidewalk, to avoid being sideswiped by passing traffic on these one lane streets. Many of the residences, even in smaller communities, were rowhouses, and in Philley the back yards are often no more than the width of the house wide and maybe 8 feet deep and divided from the next yard by wooden fences or brick walls. Oftentimes the corner building was/is a bar or grocery store. In warn weather be sure to have quite a few folks sitting on their front steps, or with lawn chairs on the sidewalk. If you've got a sizable city, a street vender selling watermelon or other fruit off a horse-drawn wagon wouldn't be out of place, even in the 1960's. Just a few thoughts. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:29:50 -0400 From: STEVEN HANLON Subject: [PRR] pb&w coaling tower? at Patuxent, MD is the remains of what appears to be a coaling tower. does anyone know for sure that this is the remains of a coaling tower? the base is poured cement roughly 15 feet high and the top is metal. on the sides are 3 lever like arms or braces. i'd love to find out for sure what this is. it is just west of the signal bridge at Patuxent near Odenton. i missed the chance to get a clear picture as the foilage has nearly covered this structure. i will try to get a picture in the near future. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Symbol Freight Numbers Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:45:21 +0000 Jerry and the List: Priority in numbering trains could be based on priority or on the sequence of the train numbers assigned. Another reason of jumping to double digits, given that there are single digits available may be to reduce any confusion in the trains via communication between dispatchers, tower operators, trainmasters, and conductors. For example, one hot shot train on the Ft. Wayne line was FW-8, a live stock train from Chicago to New York. "FW" stood for "Feed Water" However, the locals on the Ft. Wayne division had their prefixes "FW" which I think stood for the either the division or the yard in Ft. Wayne which these trains originated or worked. The numbers that were used were either in the teens, twenties, or eighties. I think that this may have been done to do 2 things. No single digits were used on the Ft. Wayne locals so that there would not be any confusion with FW-8. Second, there seemed to be a order to Pennsy's naming of trains. The double-digit named trains "typically" were local, intra-division trains while the single-digit trains were more for inter-division/region trains. My 2 cents worth! Ted Andrews >From: Jerry Britton >To: Al Buchan , PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] Symbol Freight Numbers >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:43:51 -0400 > >On 5/20/03 10:01 PM, "Al Buchan" wrote: > > > Re: The symbol often depicts the origination/destination, such as ENPI > > might be Enola to Pittsburgh. > > >Al: > >Thanks for your extensive comment. But the gist of my question was not >about >the alpha prefix of the symbol, but rather the number that follows. > >Does the number reflect any sort of priority? > >The LCL's were all low numbers: 2, 5, 7, etc. > >Then there's the ED-3, ED-4, BF-16, etc. > >But when you get to the CV's, the numbers are 60, 88, etc. > >Since the O-D is already designated by the letters, does the number set any >kind of priority for movement? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:55:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 From: "Stephen H. Prosser" > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? Jerry and List, I'm not yet convinced that a run at Altoona is impossible, although I realize the general feeling is negative on this given NS's recalcitrance. So, no, I don't want a restoration of #1361 with degradation to follow. The question remains whether the Altoona museum can financially maintain her and put her to use. I was in Altoona last week and I saw the shed roof up; the plans still show a 1/4 Round to be built in the yard. A Hollidaysburg run from Alto? Back up to Milesburg like the earliest runs? Maybe? After driving through the Juniata yards last week, I realized again that there is no place for Rail preservation like Altoona. Like so many things which seem like an impossibility, history has shown nevertheless that strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) and political influence (Steamtown) can accomplish surprising things for certain locales. With the Horsehoe Curve, the ever-changing NS shop disposition, the vast historically important shops, the completion of Interstate 99, and the history of Altoona and its people as context, perhaps either kismet, political influence, or plain common sense will prevail--and Altoona will get what it deserves--a first class interpretive site of the amazing story of the PRR and Altoona. Hope remains, -- Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs _____________________________________________†\ / =ALTOONA= | / | \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | \____________________________________________ | \ | \| -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Shoo-fly tracks Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:56:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C31F7F.3AA97E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A discussion about shoo-fly tracks (temporary tracks built around a construction site) came up the other day and I was asked where that term came from. Can anybody out there shed any light or pontifications on where this term came from? I bet you M of W types can answer that in a Manhattan minute. Thanks in advance WDV ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C31F7F.3AA97E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
A = discussion about=20 shoo-fly tracks (temporary tracks built around a construction site) came = up the=20 other day and I was asked where that term came from.
 
Can = anybody out=20 there shed any light or pontifications on where this term came=20 from?
 
I bet = you M of W=20 types can answer that in a Manhattan minute.
 
Thanks = in=20 advance
 
WDV
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C31F7F.3AA97E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:27:27 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" > Okay, here's a few things that I would include on a Western PA oriented Pennsy layout if I wanted to make it look more realistic: > > 1. sulfur creeks ("cricks") and strip-mine cuts---unfortunately, until quite recently many of the streams and creeks in western PA ran a dirty orange like color from the sulfur drainage from the various mines that were all over the area. And the bridge pilings/abutments were (and many still are) stained with the same vivid orange-brown to the high water mark. The fade is from a darker brown at the bottom, nearest the water, to bright orange at the high water point. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:31:02 +0000 history has shown nevertheless that > strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known tourist line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in trains in a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a group that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and has proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania need an equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a never ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. > > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it > > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again > > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? > > > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it > > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again > > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? > > Jerry and List, > > I'm not yet convinced that a run at Altoona is impossible, although I > realize the general feeling is negative on this given NS's recalcitrance. > So, no, I don't want a restoration of #1361 with degradation to follow. The > question remains whether the Altoona museum can financially maintain her and > put her to use. I was in Altoona last week and I saw the shed roof up; the > plans still show a 1/4 Round to be built in the yard. A Hollidaysburg run > from Alto? Back up to Milesburg like the earliest runs? Maybe? > > After driving through the Juniata yards last week, I realized again that > there is no place for Rail preservation like Altoona. Like so many things > which seem like an impossibility, and political > influence (Steamtown) can accomplish surprising things for certain locales. > > With the Horsehoe Curve, the ever-changing NS shop disposition, the vast > historically important shops, the completion of Interstate 99, and the > history of Altoona and its people as context, perhaps either kismet, > political influence, or plain common sense will prevail--and Altoona will > get what it deserves--a first class interpretive site of the amazing story > of the PRR and Altoona. > > Hope remains, > > > -- > Steve Prosser > Modeling Altoona and Environs > > _____________________________________________†\ > / =ALTOONA= | > / | > \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | > \____________________________________________ | > \ | > \| > > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas von Trott" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 & Altoona Museum Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:34:30 -0400 This has been the problem with that group from the very get go, they can not face reality. The reality is they have no place to run 1361 in Altoona. NS's current policies bascially ensure that 1361 would not run on their track. There are other carriers in the region that may allow it to run, but that does not solve the problem of insurance. Even finacially sound entities such as the Freinds of 4449 in Portland have ceased operations in 2003 because of the high cost of insurance. A basically bankrunpt organization like Altoona will probably not be able to get coverage at any price. There is also the fact, that no matter how ideal the conditions, Altoona is still in a remote part of central PA that sees very little tourism. Railfan's can only carry you so far, to truely make it you have to be like Strasburg and appeal to the general pubic as well. Although Steamtown is not at the level yet that Strasburg is, they have come a long way since they moved to Scranton. Once 1361 is operational Altoona will be the owners of a priceless treausure, but if they don't know how to properly take advantage of it they will be just as lost as they are now. They need to come up with some sort of arrangment with Steamtown and the NPS. A partnership between the two organizations will only make both stronger. I'm sure it can be done. Steamtown is the ideal location for a heay pacific. There are very few other regular steam operations in the nation that have the facilities, crew, and track, to handle a locomotive of that size on a regular basis. I can certainly understand their feelings about not wanting to give up their locomotive, having worked with a steam locomotive myself I understand the deep attachment one can feel for them. In the future, maybe 1361 can come home, nobody knows, in 10 years there may be a new board of directors at NS that is freindly to historic equipment operations. There have been past insurance problems for steam operators, and although they can be very troubling, they usually pass within a few years. The work has been slow, and one problem has lead to another. But when the work is finished the scope of the work on 1361 will put her in the best condition she's been in since new, time will be on her side for a change. But sitting in Altoona will not generate revenue. I can go to Strasburg and see a silent K4. I hope someone in Altoona will see the light, and realize that taking the best advantage of the current realities is the best way to set the stage for a future home comming for the Pride of Altoona. Tom von Trott >From: Jerry Britton >To: William Bigler , PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 & Altoona Museum >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:38:48 -0400 > >On 5/20/03 3:29 PM, William Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > Given that the Altoona Museum is in financial trouble and as far as I >know > > doesn't have a place to operate 1361 except for possibly a piece of test > > track on the museum grounds, isn't restoring the locomotive to operating > > condition perhaps a pipe dream? Might those funds be better spent on >other > > aspects of the museum's financial troubles? Might it be feasible to >lease > > the locomotive to someone who could/would operate it and hopefully >generate > > publicity and possibly even a bit of income for the museum, returning it >to > > the museum at some future date? > > >While leasing the 1361 to another location (Steamtown or Strasburg) would >indeed create income for the museum, I am 95% confident they will not do >it. > >Having had direct e-mail contact and telephone contact with them, I am >confident that they believe the 1361 will be their savior. Unfortunately, >it >will only create a surge of interest for the first six months, I believe, >since they won't have a place to be running it. (I seriously doubt NS will >allow them on the main line any time other than RailFest, and that is still >at NS' discretion.) >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:34:50 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" > Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus "cobblestone" roads. Those of us in the area know what we're talking about. While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty buff/yellow color. These are, however, regular in size, not like European cobblestones. Some towns had the Belgium Block paving stones, too. These are much larger than either the red/pink brick or the larger cream/buff brick. They're gray, and have a slightly convex surface. They were used extensively in the city of Pittsburgh, but also in some of the surrounding towns along the PRR. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:35:32 +0000 If you've got a sizable city, a street vender > selling watermelon or other fruit off a horse-drawn wagon wouldn't be out of > place, even in the 1960's. If you are modeling Philly it better be a guy selling soft pretzels from a cart! And don't forget the gallon jar of yellow mustard on the end of the cart with a paint stick for a spreader in it. > Gentry, > I too am greatly enjoying this discussion. I'm more familar with Pennsy's > hometown of Philadelphia as regards some of these details than I am out on the > Main Line points, but one little detail sticks out as being common to town or > city. In the older neighborhoods in Quaker City districts like Kensington, the > sidewalks as well as streets were often brick.(Or brick-like paving stones in > the street). The difference in elevation was often very little between the > street and sidewalks, a few inchs if that, especially if the street had been > paved over with asphalt. And the narrowness of the streets often made them > designated as one-way. Don't forget to park at least some of the residents cars > partly up on the sidewalk, to avoid being sideswiped by passing traffic on these > one lane streets. > Many of the residences, even in smaller communities, were rowhouses, and in > Philley the back yards are often no more than the width of the house wide and > maybe 8 feet deep and divided from the next yard by wooden fences or brick > walls. Oftentimes the corner building was/is a bar or grocery store. In warn > weather be sure to have quite a few folks sitting on their front steps, or with > lawn chairs on the sidewalk. > Just a few thoughts. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:43:08 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" > How about classic duplex mining houses? A string of four or five of them to represent the "patch", complete with outbuildings behind them (and vegetable gardens) and a better house to represent the "bosses" houses. And nearby, the miners' "club", often, like the churches, reflective of the ethnic background of the local miners, like the Polish Sokol or Jugoslav E&E clubs. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:46:11 -0400 If you take into consideration that attendence at the RRMPA is one-half the attendence at the SRR, you could only conclude that without the SRR the RRMPA would not nearly be the success that it is. The RRMPA has the highest attendence rate of any museum in the State Museum System. If SRR was not the neighbor it would languish and you would not have nearly as much preservation success that the museum has enjoyed. The question is how do you entice the other 50% of the SRR visitors to cross the street and pay an admission to visit the RRMPA. With all the carping about location and politics, you have to admit that the synergy is almost perfect especially when one considers the population base within a 1 day RT drive. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" ; "Stephen H. Prosser" Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 > history has shown nevertheless that > > strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) > > Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known tourist > line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in trains in > a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a group > that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no > infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was > probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and has > proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania need an > equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a never > ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. > > > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it > > > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again > > > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? > > > > > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to have it > > > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once again > > > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? > > > > Jerry and List, > > > > I'm not yet convinced that a run at Altoona is impossible, although I > > realize the general feeling is negative on this given NS's recalcitrance. > > So, no, I don't want a restoration of #1361 with degradation to follow. The > > question remains whether the Altoona museum can financially maintain her and > > put her to use. I was in Altoona last week and I saw the shed roof up; the > > plans still show a 1/4 Round to be built in the yard. A Hollidaysburg run > > from Alto? Back up to Milesburg like the earliest runs? Maybe? > > > > After driving through the Juniata yards last week, I realized again that > > there is no place for Rail preservation like Altoona. Like so many things > > which seem like an impossibility, and political > > influence (Steamtown) can accomplish surprising things for certain locales. > > > > With the Horsehoe Curve, the ever-changing NS shop disposition, the vast > > historically important shops, the completion of Interstate 99, and the > > history of Altoona and its people as context, perhaps either kismet, > > political influence, or plain common sense will prevail--and Altoona will > > get what it deserves--a first class interpretive site of the amazing story > > of the PRR and Altoona. > > > > Hope remains, > > > > > > -- > > Steve Prosser > > Modeling Altoona and Environs > > > > _____________________________________________?\ > > / =ALTOONA= | > > / | > > \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | > > \____________________________________________ | > > \ | > > \| > > > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:57:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 & Altoona Museum From: Jerry Britton On 5/21/03 10:34 AM, Thomas von Trott (prr643@hotmail.com) wrote: > The reality is they have no place to run 1361 in Altoona. Hey, Bennett, how much track do you have at Juniata Terminal? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Commerical Kits Good for PRR and Regional Structures Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:18:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C31F71.93AD9CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are some commercial kits that will work for a PRR layout. IHC had a series of brick residential buildings that appear to have been = copied from Philadelphia. Some of the ornament seemed over the top when = I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, it's clearly = prototypical. However, these would be for a big-city area. C.C.Crow has I-houses and Pennsylvania style barns. Does anyone know of others? =20 There are no commercial kits that I'm aware of for the common building = design in New Jersey and elsewhere, the peaked roof at a very obtuse = angle parallel to the street and windows that reach all the way up to = the eaves. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C31F71.93AD9CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are some commercial kits that will work for a = PRR=20 layout.
 
IHC had a series of brick residential buildings that = appear to=20 have been copied from Philadelphia.  Some of the ornament seemed = over the=20 top when I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, it's = clearly=20 prototypical.  However, these would be for a big-city = area.
 
C.C.Crow has I-houses and Pennsylvania style=20 barns.
 
Does anyone know of others? 
 
There are  no commercial kits that I'm aware of = for the=20 common building design in New Jersey and elsewhere, the peaked roof at a = very=20 obtuse angle parallel to the street and windows that reach all the way = up to the=20 eaves.
------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C31F71.93AD9CE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:33:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1361 From: Jerry Britton Okay, this is a pure fantasy comment... The City of Harrisburg and the outlying areas is putting in a new commuter rail system over the next couple of years. The first route will connect the Harrisburg International Airport with Harrisburg (following the Amtrak main line) and going west through Lemoyne, Mechanicsburg, to Carlisle (via the ex-Cumberland Valley). That's a pretty good run! Now do it with K4s #1361! Harrisburg is already a draw for a variety of tourist attractions. Hosts the National Civil War Museum, is an hour from Gettysburg, an hour from Lancaster area (Strasburg), has its own baseball team, is 20 minutes from Hershey, etc. I called this "commuter rail" and not "light rail" for a reason. Perhaps Dan Cupper can chime in here. Since the new line will coexist with existing rail, does that make it "regular rail" vs. "light rail"? I realize the gauge would be the same, but would track coexist, or would all new rail be heavy as well? Web site for new system is at http://www.cattransit.com/ . Click on Rail in header. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:49:32 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 YAWN! Could I suggest those of you interested in rehashing the Steamtown, Altoona, RRMoPA debate spend some time in the PRR-talk archives...seems to me we just had this discussion a few months back. If you'll allow me to summarize the points of view: 1) Altoona is a tourist attraction...HAHAHAHAHA (Oh God, that is so funny!) No offense, but you can build a 14 lane direct connector to every major east coast metropolis and Altoona ain't gonna be a "tourist destination". The museum lives in a small niche market and will need to learn to survive on something other than the gate take and the gift shop. Add to that, there is no place to run a K4. 2) The K4 belongs with the "collection" in Strasburg...Yeah, and so does the I1. You'll note that the collection is stationary, and is NOT the same thing as the Strasburg RR...two DIFFERENT entities gang. If the K4 is on the Strasburg, those 5 minute runs will be just stunning, eh? 3) Steamtown...gang its only "pork barrel" spending when its the OTHER guy's project! The money is going to help preserve railroad history!!! In this case it is an insightful, far thinking, preservationist attitude helping to save part of the industrialized history of our great country...geez, I'd rather have my taxes go to that than some other programs!! Seems like a no-brainer to me - they have the facilities, the track, the tourist basis, the knowledge to run a big loco like 1361...I've chased double headed steam out of there a few times and they have some great locations as well...then 1361 can visit places like the curve once a year IF insurance and the NS can be had... I have to admit to being amused at thought that this list is so ready and willing to offer advice on just about every topic, from the design construction of new railroad stations to the management of museums and tourism! Glad to know our "expertise" is so broad ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:59:39 -0500 Based on what I saw during my visit to Scranton, there were not than many buldings standing that were worth preservation until the government money started flowing. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:14 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums Strasburg makes lots of sense for a State RR museum location. There are two huge tourist draws to that area: Strasburg RR and the Amish. It's strange; the townsfolk themselves hate dealing with either, but readily take the tourist dollars they draw. The only reason that dinky dive of a town is even on the map is because of their two tourist attractions (just like Gettysburg's only draw is the battlefield, and the townsfolk there dislike THAT attraction). Both Gettysburg and Strasburg are close enough to major East Coast population centers to make them attractive daytrip destinations. No one in their right mind would want to vacation in Altoona (might as well go to Shamokin...). Steamtown makes little sense, but more sense than Altoona. Scranton is on the beaten path, has a good, long mainline, and has a nice set of buildings, for a complete railroady package. Altoona is in the middle of nowhere, has no mainline, Horseshoe is an oddball drive away (the highway or fun backroads), and the only buildings are uninspiring rectangular things. That and what equipment they do have is in a variety of decay, and there's no rhyme nor reason to how it's displayed. >From my perspective, I think NS should be inticed to construct a railfan's park somewhere in Altoona (like Rochelle), the Altoona museum should be packed up and moved to Steamtown (they have more space than Strasburg), and the buildings should be placed on the National Register of Historic Places, and turned into Condos. The money saved from closing Altoona could be better spent on fewer, but better, Pennsylvania RR museums. And lest you-all think that I'm just an uninformed Midwesterner, I've lived in PA for five years. Four in Williamsport (Lycoming College) and one in Scranton (first job). I've actually been to all these places, and know how much or how little each has to offer. Personally, I like Strasburg the best, but the city has zoned them into the space their in, with no room for expansion. The threatened artifacts at Altoona have the best chance for survival at Steamtown. As for 1361, she should be put back together and put on permanent display at Steamtown. As it is, it looks like she'll never run again, and Steamtown doesn't have any PRR engines (a travesty in a PA museum!) Ray Breyer (who likes Steamtown mostly for their three NKP engines!) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:31 AM To: PRR-Talk; Stephen H. Prosser Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 history has shown nevertheless that > strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known tourist line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in trains in a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a group that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and has proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania need an equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a never ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Commerical Kits Good for PRR and Regional Structures Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:19:36 +0000 John Bruce wrote: "IHC had a series of brick residential buildings that appear to have been copied from Philadelphia. Some of the ornament seemed over the top when I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, it's clearly prototypical. However, these would be for a big-city area." IHC has three lines of row houses. The ones you're talking about have stock numbers 100-7 through 100-11 and aren't bad for larger city row houses. However, stay away from the commercial/residential kits (100-14 through 100- 18!) They are very badly out of proportion, with store levels (and second floors for the kits with bay windows) closer to S Scale, which combined with the HO scale upper floors produces a unrealistic building. Too bad, because these would be otherwise useful. The third line (100-1 through 100-5) is based on San Francisco Victorian row houses. "Does anyone know of others?" Design Preservation Models has an excellent line of building which would look right at home representing small towns. While not exact replicas of specific buildings, they are well-proportioned and avoid the major sin of many older plastic structure kits, which is including outlandish details or out-of- proportion appearance. I'm surprised you didn't mention these, because their line is well distributed and can be seen at many hobby shops. We modified many of these to represent row houses and stores in Troy, NY on the NEB&W. Their website is at http://www.dpmkits.com/ Walthers also has similar kits in their Cornerstone line and their older Magunson Line of resin structure kits (out of production but still languishing in older store stock). Ditto for Rix Products in their Smalltown USA line: http://www.rixproducts.com/smalltown.htm Any of these kits can be modified (windows, doors, cornices, etc.) to more closely represent a specific prototype. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:23:18 -0400 Yes, we've discussed the PA museum issue in the past, but this thread got started relative to 1361 and its future when/if its rebuild is ever completed. This becomes a very important topic as completion of the rebuild nears, as its FRA flue time is only for a finite number of years (5 I think?), especially once it's been fired up, whether it's subsequently run or not. It would sure be a shame to have it sit around waiting for a place to run while the flue time clock runs out and wind up back needing another rebuild. The mysteries of museums and steam operation attendance seem to depend on an awful lot of factors, not all of them obvious like population and accessibility. There are some very remote and obscure railroad museums that run live steam and seem to survive. On the other hand, Ross Rowland didn't seem to be able to make ends meet on his superb fall excursions with C&O 614 on Metro North from Hoboken to Port Jervis, in one of the most highly populated and most accessible areas of the country, and finally had to sell the locomotive at auction. It's now in storage. The frustratring problem with Altoona is that it has so much to offer with respect to railroading, railroad history, and the current museum. A few days in the Altoona area will provide some of the best mainline railroad operation to be found anywhere with dozens of superb viewing locations. There is already a superb museum in place. Even the remaining shops and yards, while only a shell of what was once there, are still pretty awesome and can provide some pretty interesting viewing and photography. There are at least some other attractions. Altoona does have a baseball team. The mountains and surrounding countryside are awesome for outdoor recreation. They have (or at least recently had) a nationally ranked bicycle race weekend each August. I've seen locations with less to offer and with more remote locations somehow pull in the tourists. It seems to me that with the right creative thinking Altoona can do it. But we still need a place to run 1361, preferably Altoona, and preferably a place that would give her an opportunity to stretch her legs and do what she did best. The Bald Eagle Branch is a little too far away. The Hollidaysburg Branch wouldn't permit any sort of speed, and I think it's part of NS. But hey, there has to be a solution, and there has to be money around somewhere - how do we find the creative solutions and get enough money channeled in the right direction? Perhaps we shouldn't be in such a hurry to get 1361's rebuild completed - we need to get the "where to run her" question answered before the flue time clock starts. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/21/03 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:39:46 -0400

>I called this "commuter rail" and not "light rail" for a reason. Perhaps
Dan Cupper can chime in here. Since the new line will coexist with existing rail, does that make it "regular rail" vs. "light rail"? I realize the gauge would be the same, but would track coexist, or would all new rail be heavy as well?

Jerry,

Here in Baltimore they are expanding the rail network www.baltimorerailplan.com.  The plans are still in their infancy, but along the current Amtrak and CSX ROW there will be service called "urban rail."  It would be parallel grade with the current lines.  The report says much like the current operations of SEPTA along Amtrak alignments.  There used to be more about it on the site, but it has been recently reconfigured.

I wish I could remember more, but I would imagine that your new lines in Harrisburg will be a similar configuration.


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:41:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --- Kevin Trichtinger wrote: > And nearby, the miners' "club", often, like the churches, > reflective of the > ethnic background of the local miners, like the Polish Sokol or > Jugoslav E&E > clubs. Don't forget the Slovenska Narodna Podporna Jednota and the ever-present Croatian Club. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:52:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] RE: YAWN! From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Gang, Bruce, as usual, is right. We did hash this over, more or less, a couple of months ago. Altoona is a great tourist attraction (if you like railroads--other listers made that point.): Portage Railroad, The Shops, The Museum, The Curve, I mean the whole story of east-to-west canal/rail travel is there. Oh, well, I admit it's a bore for all the rest!! As an ex-Altoonan, though, I must put in a plug for Texas Hot Dogs--well worth the trip alone! Although there's nothing more exciting than seeing an E6 sitting beside a corn field, I'll make this suggestion: Howsabout Strasburg sending all of its Altoona-built stock to the RMM for awhile? OK, I'm just kidding--sort of!! The defense rests (I know I'm losing this case!). Sorry folks! Just for chuckles, I'll put some recent shots up on my web site (Alto, Rose, Homer, Slope, the hump at Homer, the remains of the East Altoona Passenger Station, some of those beautiful brick boxes (shops), some mystery cars (PC can still be found!). Bla, bla, bla. -- Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs _____________________________________________†\ / =ALTOONA= | / | \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | \____________________________________________ | \ | \| -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --- Kevin Trichtinger wrote: They were used extensively in > the city > of Pittsburgh, but also in some of the surrounding towns along the > PRR. Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on streets and even country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts paved with concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's and perhaps even the early 50's. There were two reasons: 1) Concrete poured on a steep slope tended to run downhill before it started to set up. 2) The bricks used were special for the purpose. Picture a brick with one of the long edges beveled at a 45 deg. angle. I think they were called "side-hill pavers" in the catalogs. These were placed so that the bevels formed grooves an inch or so deep running across the street/road with the "sharp" corner on the down-hill side. The idea was that caulks on horses' shoes would catch in the grooves, helping the horses get traction on the hill. I also recall travelling somewhere in the South Fork country in 1958 or '59 and coming upon a few miles of brick-paved road somewhere in the boondocks there. As I recall, there were curbstones set on both sides of the road with the bricks laid flat (broad side up) rather than on edge. The tops of the curbstones were flush with the top of the bricks. I supposed then that the stones were there to contain the bricks rather than confine traffic to the road pavement. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:01:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas In a message dated 5/21/03 8:19:11 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << The Penn Texas, though a prestige train, was not one of the "highest tier" trains, such as the Broadway and the Liberty. These likely had E8's by 1954. >> Hmm. Last night I just coincidentally was in the "library" reading the Summer 1991 Keystone. The centerspread is a photo in November, 1952, of the Penn Texas Westbound at Greenville, Illinois. The power is the last pair of EP22As delivered in DGLE, #5904 and 5905. Its your railroad but I suspect by 1954 Pennsy felt more comfortable protecting the schedule for passengers on the 4 through sleepers and other cars on this long leg of the run with EMD products, as they did on this day in 1952. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:03:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout In a message dated 5/21/03 8:24:40 AM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << If you've got a sizable city, a street vender selling watermelon or other fruit off a horse-drawn wagon wouldn't be out of place, even in the 1960's. >> And it gives you a chance to run one or more of those beautiful Westerfield ACL Dispatch watermelon cars :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Design Preservation and PRR/regional buildings Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:05:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C31F80.871856A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn't mention DPM buildings for a very good reason. Yes, they have a = general brick vernacular store/row house look. But actually I would be = more inclined to use them as-is if I were doing Illinois. Or even = Calilfornia. They are good background buildings, but I would not use = them as a centerpiece for a scene -- where, for instance, I was trying = to say BALTIMORE or CAMDEN. I do have three of the DPM row houses on my layout, but I may gradually = replace them. A big problem with them is, as some have pointed out = regarding other buildings, that there is no foundation or basement. = Both John Nehrich and Frank Cicero have published items on cutting the = DPM row houses apart and reassembling them with a basement story. I = will definitely do this on any further row houses I do for my layout and = may eventually redo the ones on the layout now. The higher "ground" = floor would then allow for a full porch, also very common but can't be = done with the DPMs as-is. Also, the DPM row houses or town houses should, to be good mid-Atlantic = prototype, be DUPLEXES, which they are not. I don't believe anyone has = a kit for a duplex of any kind -- please correct me so I can order one!! I first added DPM town houses to my layout because they sorta-kinda = reminded me of Georgetown DC, but I'll bet if I go back and look I'll be = disappointed. Also, I have a problem with the roof lines. Most of the DPM buildings = have a single-slope roof that slopes back from the street. But if you = look at REAL roofs, they are often peaked in the middle parallel to the = street. I am not sure how much leeway there is in the side castings to = allow you to hack away and create a peaked roofline, at however obtuse = an angle. My recent visit to Southern New Jersey suggested that many older New = Jersey towns (like Burlington, for instance) seem to have had wooden, = colonial-style vernacular houses arranged along the street to eventually = create a row-house situation, all with center-peaked roofs at a very = obtuse angle. The details on the houses could be Second Empire (top = floor is dormers in a steeply sloping roof), Italianate (heavy dentils = at eave line, near-flat roof), or Colonial, all mixed up on the same = street. I simply do not think there is any kit you could use as a = starting point for this type of situation. You could intersperse DPM = town houses in brick among the wood buildings. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C31F80.871856A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I didn't mention DPM buildings for a very good = reason. =20 Yes, they have a general brick vernacular store/row house look.  = But=20 actually I would be more inclined to use them as-is if I were doing=20 Illinois.  Or even Calilfornia.  They are good background = buildings,=20 but I would not use them as a centerpiece for a scene -- where, for = instance, I=20 was trying to say BALTIMORE or CAMDEN.
 
I do have three of the DPM row houses on my layout, = but I may=20 gradually replace them.  A big problem with them is, as some have = pointed=20 out regarding other buildings, that there is no foundation or=20 basement.   Both John Nehrich and Frank Cicero have published = items on=20 cutting the DPM row houses apart and reassembling them with a basement=20 story.  I will definitely do this on any further row houses I do = for my=20 layout and may eventually redo the ones on the layout = now.    The=20 higher "ground" floor would then allow for a full porch, also very = common but=20 can't be done with the DPMs as-is.
 
Also, the DPM row houses or town houses should, to = be good=20 mid-Atlantic prototype, be DUPLEXES, which they are not.  I don't = believe=20 anyone has a kit for a duplex of any kind -- please correct me so I can = order=20 one!!
 
I first added DPM town houses to my layout because = they=20 sorta-kinda reminded me of Georgetown DC, but I'll bet if I go back and = look=20 I'll be disappointed.
 
Also, I have a problem with the roof = lines.   Most=20 of the DPM buildings have a single-slope roof that slopes back from the=20 street.  But if you look at REAL roofs, they are often peaked in = the middle=20 parallel to the street.   I am not sure how much leeway there = is in=20 the side castings to allow you to hack away and create a peaked = roofline, at=20 however obtuse an angle.
 
My recent visit to Southern New Jersey suggested = that many=20 older New Jersey towns (like Burlington, for instance) seem to have had = wooden,=20 colonial-style vernacular houses arranged along the street to eventually = create=20 a row-house situation, all with center-peaked roofs at a very obtuse=20 angle.  The details on the houses could be Second Empire (top floor = is=20 dormers in a steeply sloping roof), Italianate (heavy dentils at eave = line,=20 near-flat roof), or Colonial, all mixed up on the same street.  I = simply do=20 not think there is any kit you could use as a starting point for this = type of=20 situation.   You could intersperse DPM town houses in brick = among the=20 wood buildings.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C31F80.871856A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Brick Streets Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:12:22 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C31F81.7879DB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin Trichtinger wrote, Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on streets and even country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts paved with concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's and perhaps even the early 50's. The reason for paving stones or bricks was to give a surface for horses = to get traction. Horses were still used on utility, ice, and milk = wagons in the 1930s and 40s. The Travel Town museum in Los Angeles has = a very 1930s airflow-type horse drawn milk truck! ------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C31F81.7879DB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kevin Trichtinger wrote,
 
Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on = streets and=20 even
country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts paved=20 with
concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's=20 and
perhaps even the early 50's.

The reason for paving stones or bricks was to give a = surface=20 for horses to get traction.   Horses were still used on = utility, ice,=20 and milk wagons in the 1930s and 40s.   The Travel Town museum = in Los=20 Angeles has a very 1930s airflow-type horse drawn milk = truck!
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C31F81.7879DB40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:13:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas From: Jerry Britton On 5/21/03 1:01 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 5/21/03 8:19:11 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << The Penn Texas, though a prestige train, was not one of the "highest tier" > trains, such as the Broadway and the Liberty. These likely had E8's by 1954. >>> > > Hmm. Last night I just coincidentally was in the "library" reading the > Summer 1991 Keystone. > The centerspread is a photo in November, 1952, of the Penn Texas Westbound > at Greenville, Illinois. The power is the last pair of EP22As delivered in > DGLE, #5904 and 5905. Its your railroad but I suspect by 1954 Pennsy felt > more comfortable protecting the schedule for passengers on the 4 through > sleepers and other cars on this long leg of the run with EMD products, as > they did on this day in 1952. > Excellent reference...works for me! I don't have any DGLE E8's. I have numerous sets of Tuscan units, though I think I may repaint the Kato units because they just appear too light to me. They definitely don't match other Tuscan units I own. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:14:26 -0700 Strasburg makes lots of sense for a State RR museum location. There are two huge tourist draws to that area: Strasburg RR and the Amish. It's strange; the townsfolk themselves hate dealing with either, but readily take the tourist dollars they draw. The only reason that dinky dive of a town is even on the map is because of their two tourist attractions (just like Gettysburg's only draw is the battlefield, and the townsfolk there dislike THAT attraction). Both Gettysburg and Strasburg are close enough to major East Coast population centers to make them attractive daytrip destinations. No one in their right mind would want to vacation in Altoona (might as well go to Shamokin...). Steamtown makes little sense, but more sense than Altoona. Scranton is on the beaten path, has a good, long mainline, and has a nice set of buildings, for a complete railroady package. Altoona is in the middle of nowhere, has no mainline, Horseshoe is an oddball drive away (the highway or fun backroads), and the only buildings are uninspiring rectangular things. That and what equipment they do have is in a variety of decay, and there's no rhyme nor reason to how it's displayed. >From my perspective, I think NS should be inticed to construct a railfan's park somewhere in Altoona (like Rochelle), the Altoona museum should be packed up and moved to Steamtown (they have more space than Strasburg), and the buildings should be placed on the National Register of Historic Places, and turned into Condos. The money saved from closing Altoona could be better spent on fewer, but better, Pennsylvania RR museums. And lest you-all think that I'm just an uninformed Midwesterner, I've lived in PA for five years. Four in Williamsport (Lycoming College) and one in Scranton (first job). I've actually been to all these places, and know how much or how little each has to offer. Personally, I like Strasburg the best, but the city has zoned them into the space their in, with no room for expansion. The threatened artifacts at Altoona have the best chance for survival at Steamtown. As for 1361, she should be put back together and put on permanent display at Steamtown. As it is, it looks like she'll never run again, and Steamtown doesn't have any PRR engines (a travesty in a PA museum!) Ray Breyer (who likes Steamtown mostly for their three NKP engines!) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:31 AM To: PRR-Talk; Stephen H. Prosser Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 history has shown nevertheless that > strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known tourist line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in trains in a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a group that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and has proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania need an equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a never ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:16:21 -0500 Hi Guys Thanks a million for this thread. As you know, the Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS is the Penn Texas Chapter. So any and all info is greatly appreciated. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist & Proud SPF Member of PRRTHS #1204 President of Penn Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] #1361 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:19:39 -0700 You're not going to get the other half of the SRR's riders to cross the street. They're there to ride the cute choo-choos, not because they're railfans. The first time I went to the SRR, I got a guided tour of the entire facility by one of their conductors, on Memorial Day Weekend, simply because I was the first "real" railfan any of the crews had seen all season! They told me that in reality, about 90% of their clientele are non-railfans, and most of those have never even seen a steam engine before! Be glad attendance at the RRM o' PA is even CLOSE to 50% of SRR's. Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bennett Levin Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:46 AM To: Stephen H. Prosser; PRR-Talk; ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 If you take into consideration that attendence at the RRMPA is one-half the attendence at the SRR, you could only conclude that without the SRR the RRMPA would not nearly be the success that it is. The RRMPA has the highest attendence rate of any museum in the State Museum System. If SRR was not the neighbor it would languish and you would not have nearly as much preservation success that the museum has enjoyed. The question is how do you entice the other 50% of the SRR visitors to cross the street and pay an admission to visit the RRMPA. With all the carping about location and politics, you have to admit that the synergy is almost perfect especially when one considers the population base within a 1 day RT drive. Bennett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:49:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas From: Jerry Britton On 5/21/03 1:16 PM, Pennsy Nut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote: > Thanks a million for this thread. As you know, the Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS > is the Penn Texas Chapter. So any and all info is greatly appreciated. > Should be quite a showy train when complete -- the unique recreation car, a "Texas Special" car, and four MP "Eagle" cars! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:56:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Light Rail Apologies if this was covered before, but one of the key distinctions between light rail and conventional commuter lines is whether the operations and equipment satisfy FRA standards for operation on a "regular" railroad, where standard equipment can be dispatched over the same line at the same time. Light rail systems typically do not meet these requirements and if conventional equipment (typically local freight service) is allowed on a light rail line, it's usually at night when the light rail service is shut down completely and there is no chance of a collision between light rail and conventional equipment, which could be disastrous. I think parallel tracks on the same right of way are acceptable for light rail, as long as regular rail equipment can't be used on the light rail lines during light rail operations. An example of this is the Blue Line light rail system in Los Angeles (the former Pacific Electric line to Long Beach), and there are probably many others. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:59:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg stuff: --0-1848694200-1053539992=:13369 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gary Mittner wrote: My preferance/dream would be to see the 1361 on weekend service between Altoona and Galitzin and return. But that will never happen so anywhere on the high iron will do........Gary It's a shame you couldn't see her run Pittsburgh to Altoona. By the way, I've been looking at what's left of Amtrak and I think it's possible to do an interesting day trip via Amtrak from Pittsburgh to Altoona. According to current scheduling, one could take the "Pennsylvanian" from Pittsburgh at 7:20 am Monday through Saturday, arriving at Altoona at 9:49 am. One could then do the Altoona museum, eat dinner, and return to Pittsburgh on the "Three Rivers", leaving Altoona at 7:05 pm and arriving in Pittsburgh at 10:00 pm. Fare according to the Amtrak calculator would be $34.00. Trip at that time would maximize daylight hours and still give one about an hour of night running on the return. As the "Three Rivers" is reserved seat coaches only reservations would have to be made in advance. With museum admission and dinner whole day would probably cost between $50-$75. Not bad for a day's railfanning. I'm thinking about making this trip myself sometime, possibly on a Saturday in June. Would be interested if any other listers, local PRRHTS members would want to go also. Any takers, contact me off list and we'll see what can be arranged. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1848694200-1053539992=:13369 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Gary Mittner <mittner@webtv.net> wrote:


My preferance/dream would be to see the 1361 on weekend service
between Altoona and Galitzin and return. But that will never happen so
anywhere on the high iron will do........Gary


It's a shame you couldn't see her run Pittsburgh to Altoona.

By the way, I've been looking at what's left of Amtrak and I think it's possible to do an interesting day trip via Amtrak from Pittsburgh to Altoona.  According to current scheduling, one could take the  "Pennsylvanian" from Pittsburgh at 7:20 am Monday through Saturday, arriving at Altoona at 9:49 am. One could then do the Altoona museum, eat dinner, and return to Pittsburgh on  the "Three Rivers", leaving Altoona at 7:05 pm and arriving in Pittsburgh at 10:00 pm.  Fare according to the Amtrak calculator would be $34.00. 

Trip at that time would maximize daylight hours and still give one about an hour of night running on the return.  As the "Three Rivers" is reserved seat coaches only reservations would have to be made in advance.  With museum admission and dinner whole day would probably cost between $50-$75.  Not bad for a day's railfanning.

I'm thinking about making this trip myself sometime, possibly on a Saturday in June.  Would be interested if any other listers, local PRRHTS members would want to go also.  Any takers, contact me off list and we'll see what can be arranged.

Ron Di Orio 



Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1848694200-1053539992=:13369-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Another Factor That Makes a PRR Layout --0-841467758-1053540470=:9889 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kevin Yes, remember bouncing over this type of pavement many a time driving streets of downtown Pittsburgh, squeezing between parked cars, trolleys, and trolley platforms in the middle of the street, never really sure what lane one was in. That convex surface you are talking about made them especially slippery for pedestrians to walk on. Ron Kevin Trichtinger wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" > Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus "cobblestone" roads. Those of us in the area know what we're talking about. While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty buff/yellow color. These are, however, regular in size, not like European cobblestones. Some towns had the Belgium Block paving stones, too. These are much larger than either the red/pink brick or the larger cream/buff brick. They're gray, and have a slightly convex surface. They were used extensively in the city of Pittsburgh, but also in some of the surrounding towns along the PRR. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-841467758-1053540470=:9889 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Kevin
 
Yes, remember bouncing over this type of pavement many a time driving streets of downtown Pittsburgh, squeezing between parked cars, trolleys, and trolley platforms in the middle of the street, never really sure what lane one was in. That convex surface you are talking about made them especially slippery for pedestrians to walk on.
 
Ron

Kevin Trichtinger <ktrick45@icubed.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald Di Orio"

> Yes, I should have made it a little clearer about the "brick" versus
"cobblestone" roads. Those of us in the area know what we're talking about.
While there are actual "brick" roads, ie., roads paved with bricks of more
or less normal size, there are also "cobblestone" roads that were still
often referred to as brick in the local vernacular that are done with a
paving brick that is larger than a regular brick and a sort of dirty
buff/yellow color. These are, however, regular in size, not like European
cobblestones.

Some towns had the Belgium Block paving stones, too. These are much larger
than either the red/pink brick or the larger cream/buff brick. They're gray,
and have a slightly convex surface. They were used extensively in the city
of Pittsburgh, but also in some of the surrounding town Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-841467758-1053540470=:9889-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Brick Streets Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:08:36 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FC3.FFCEE9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; There are a number of streets paved with Belgian Block (cobblestone) still around, in the Pittsburgh area. It is wonderful to find them in this day and age, but they survive due to the reluctance of some cities to convert to the more slippery ("slippy" in Pittsburghese) surface that macadam or concrete provide on steep hills. There is a very steep (>8%) hill in Duquesne that has a surface that has got to be over 60 years old. It is deeply rutted (actually the blocks have been pushed deeper into the subsurface materials over time) and patched in places with asphalt, but still in good enough condition to function as a major artery in the City. I have spent many hours trying to figure out how to model this one, and some other unique features of that area on my layout. I have resigned myself to eventually having to carve in in plaster, but any suggestions would be more than welcome. There are also numerous alleys and side streets in the area still paved with red brick, also a durable, long-lasting surface that does well in the icy and destructive Pittsburgh climate/environment. Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:12 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Brick Streets Kevin Trichtinger wrote, Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on streets and even country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts paved with concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's and perhaps even the early 50's. The reason for paving stones or bricks was to give a surface for horses to get traction. Horses were still used on utility, ice, and milk wagons in the 1930s and 40s. The Travel Town museum in Los Angeles has a very 1930s airflow-type horse drawn milk truck! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FC3.FFCEE9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all;
There are a number of streets paved with Belgian Block (cobblestone) still around, in the Pittsburgh area.  It is wonderful to find them in this day and age, but they survive due to the reluctance of some cities to convert to the more slippery ("slippy" in Pittsburghese) surface that macadam or concrete provide on steep hills. There is a very steep (>8%) hill in Duquesne that has a surface that has got to be over 60 years old.  It is deeply rutted (actually the blocks have been pushed deeper into the subsurface materials over time) and patched in places with asphalt, but still in good enough condition to function as a major artery in the City.  I have spent many hours trying to figure out how to model this one, and some other unique features of that area on my layout.  I have resigned myself to eventually having to carve in in plaster, but any suggestions would be more than welcome.
There are also numerous alleys and side streets in the area still paved with red brick, also a durable, long-lasting surface that does well in the icy and destructive Pittsburgh climate/environment.
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:12 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Brick Streets

Kevin Trichtinger wrote,
 
Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on streets and even
country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts paved with
concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's and
perhaps even the early 50's.

The reason for paving stones or bricks was to give a surface for horses to get traction.   Horses were still used on utility, ice, and milk wagons in the 1930s and 40s.   The Travel Town museum in Los Angeles has a very 1930s airflow-type horse drawn milk truck!
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FC3.FFCEE9E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Commerical Kits Good for PRR and Regional Structures Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:10:30 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C31F89.97860830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you look hard enough, there are a LOT of building kits out there that will work for Pennsylvania, with only a litle work. With a quickie check of the Walthers website for HO houses in stock, I found the following that will work, with little more than changes to the roofs: AMB: Nine Mile House & Tavern; The Hanley House. City Classcs: RR Street Company House. Most of the DPM buildings. IHC: Society Hill Townhouse; Havanaugh House; Victorian House Assortment. Model Power: Rooming House; Delta Frat House; Haunted House; Sullivan House; Mr. & Mrs. Diggers; Sinatra's House; Mr. Rogers House. Walthers: 109 Elm Street. The Model Power Rooming House is especially useful, as it's easily kitbashed to all sort of arrangements (both MR and RMC have dome articles about kitbashing it). Frankly, it's easier to do a residential neighborhood based on the East Coast than it is for the Midwest. I'm modeling Central Illinois, and will have to scratchbuild a mess of brick or wood bungalows, foursquares, and Denver fours. And for Jersey, NYC, it's even easier. There are lots of Brownstones and row houses out there, by Scale Scenics, City Classics, DPM, and Walthers. For a good primer on East Coast city history and modeling, check out the Rensselaer Model RR site: http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/ Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Bruce Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 8:19 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Commerical Kits Good for PRR and Regional Structures There are some commercial kits that will work for a PRR layout. IHC had a series of brick residential buildings that appear to have been copied from Philadelphia. Some of the ornament seemed over the top when I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, it's clearly prototypical. However, these would be for a big-city area. C.C.Crow has I-houses and Pennsylvania style barns. Does anyone know of others? There are no commercial kits that I'm aware of for the common building design in New Jersey and elsewhere, the peaked roof at a very obtuse angle parallel to the street and windows that reach all the way up to the eaves. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C31F89.97860830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you=20 look hard enough, there are a LOT of building kits out there that will = work for=20 Pennsylvania, with only a litle work. With a quickie check of the = Walthers=20 website for HO houses in stock, I found the following that will work, = with=20 little more than changes to the roofs:
 
AMB:=20 Nine Mile House & Tavern; The Hanley House.
City=20 Classcs: RR Street Company House.
Most=20 of the DPM buildings.
IHC:=20 Society Hill Townhouse; Havanaugh House; Victorian House=20 Assortment.
Model=20 Power: Rooming House; Delta Frat House; Haunted House; Sullivan House; = Mr. &=20 Mrs. Diggers; Sinatra's House; Mr. Rogers House.
Walthers: 109 Elm Street.
 
The=20 Model Power Rooming House is especially useful, as it's easily kitbashed = to all=20 sort of arrangements (both MR and RMC have dome articles about = kitbashing=20 it).
 
Frankly, it's easier to do a residential = neighborhood=20 based on the East Coast than it is for the Midwest. I'm modeling Central = Illinois, and will have to scratchbuild a mess of brick or wood = bungalows,=20 foursquares, and Denver fours.
 
And=20 for Jersey, NYC, it's even easier. There are lots of Brownstones and row = houses=20 out there, by Scale Scenics, City Classics, DPM, and=20 Walthers.
 
For a=20 good primer on East Coast city history and modeling, check out the = Rensselaer=20 Model RR site:
 
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/
 
Ray=20 Breyer
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John = Bruce
Sent:=20 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 8:19 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Commerical Kits Good for = PRR and=20 Regional Structures

There are some commercial kits that will work for = a PRR=20 layout.
 
IHC had a series of brick residential buildings = that appear=20 to have been copied from Philadelphia.  Some of the ornament = seemed over=20 the top when I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, = it's=20 clearly prototypical.  However, these would be for a big-city=20 area.
 
C.C.Crow has I-houses and Pennsylvania style=20 barns.
 
Does anyone know of others? 
 
There are  no commercial kits that I'm aware = of for the=20 common building design in New Jersey and elsewhere, the peaked roof at = a very=20 obtuse angle parallel to the street and windows that reach all the way = up to=20 the eaves.
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C31F89.97860830-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:10:32 -0700 True, but the Federal money's already there and many of the buildings are already restored. Why not send more money that way, instead of diluting funds by scattering it all over? BEsides, no amount of pleading is going to convince NS to tie up a track around the Curve to run money losing and dangerous (to them) steam fantrips. Better to send the PRR stuff to Scranton, with the hopes that 1361 will eventually make the occasional run to Moscow. Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:00 AM To: 'Ray Breyer'; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums Based on what I saw during my visit to Scranton, there were not than many buldings standing that were worth preservation until the government money started flowing. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:14 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums Strasburg makes lots of sense for a State RR museum location. There are two huge tourist draws to that area: Strasburg RR and the Amish. It's strange; the townsfolk themselves hate dealing with either, but readily take the tourist dollars they draw. The only reason that dinky dive of a town is even on the map is because of their two tourist attractions (just like Gettysburg's only draw is the battlefield, and the townsfolk there dislike THAT attraction). Both Gettysburg and Strasburg are close enough to major East Coast population centers to make them attractive daytrip destinations. No one in their right mind would want to vacation in Altoona (might as well go to Shamokin...). Steamtown makes little sense, but more sense than Altoona. Scranton is on the beaten path, has a good, long mainline, and has a nice set of buildings, for a complete railroady package. Altoona is in the middle of nowhere, has no mainline, Horseshoe is an oddball drive away (the highway or fun backroads), and the only buildings are uninspiring rectangular things. That and what equipment they do have is in a variety of decay, and there's no rhyme nor reason to how it's displayed. >From my perspective, I think NS should be inticed to construct a railfan's park somewhere in Altoona (like Rochelle), the Altoona museum should be packed up and moved to Steamtown (they have more space than Strasburg), and the buildings should be placed on the National Register of Historic Places, and turned into Condos. The money saved from closing Altoona could be better spent on fewer, but better, Pennsylvania RR museums. And lest you-all think that I'm just an uninformed Midwesterner, I've lived in PA for five years. Four in Williamsport (Lycoming College) and one in Scranton (first job). I've actually been to all these places, and know how much or how little each has to offer. Personally, I like Strasburg the best, but the city has zoned them into the space their in, with no room for expansion. The threatened artifacts at Altoona have the best chance for survival at Steamtown. As for 1361, she should be put back together and put on permanent display at Steamtown. As it is, it looks like she'll never run again, and Steamtown doesn't have any PRR engines (a travesty in a PA museum!) Ray Breyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:17:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Western PA and PRR modeling --part1_17c.1b49f1eb.2bfd1cd5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. I does not have an enclosure. I messed up the address on the initial sending then tried to cut the message text out and send that. I will retype the message and send it fresh. Steve Keough --part1_17c.1b49f1eb.2bfd1cd5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks.  I does not have an enclosure.  I me= ssed up the address on the initial sending then tried to cut the message tex= t out and send that.  I will retype the message and send it fresh.
            &nbs= p;   Steve Keough --part1_17c.1b49f1eb.2bfd1cd5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Design Preservation and PRR/regional buildings Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:20:49 +0000 John Bruce wrote: "I didn't mention DPM buildings for a very good reason. Yes, they have a general brick vernacular store/row house look. But actually I would be more inclined to use them as-is if I were doing Illinois. Or even Calilfornia. They are good background buildings, but I would not use them as a centerpiece for a scene -- where, for instance, I was trying to say BALTIMORE or CAMDEN." Geez John, lighten up - I did say we had to MODIFY them for Troy, and you never stipulated in your original post that they had to be 100% dead nuts on out of the box. BTW, I can confirm as one of the guys helping Nehrich out on these that adding the basement story and a front stairwell does a lot for the appearance of the building, and the price is definitely right on the DPM kits where kitbashing is concerned. "Also, the DPM row houses or town houses should, to be good mid-Atlantic prototype, be DUPLEXES, which they are not. I don't believe anyone has a kit for a duplex of any kind -- please correct me so I can order one!!" I don't know of one - there's always sheet styrene, Holgate & Reynolds brick, and Grandt Line windows & details...scratchbuilding or kitbashing structures need not be as hard as people make it out to be. "Also, I have a problem with the roof lines. Most of the DPM buildings have a single-slope roof that slopes back from the street. But if you look at REAL roofs, they are often peaked in the middle parallel to the street. I am not sure how much leeway there is in the side castings to allow you to hack away and create a peaked roofline, at however obtuse an angle." Often, but not always - most of the roofs that I see on older buildings still standing as I look out of my office here in lovely Southeast DC by the Navy Yard have flat roofs. The bottom line, as you've done in the next paragraph, is to take a look at your specific prototype. "My recent visit to Southern New Jersey suggested that many older New Jersey towns (like Burlington, for instance) seem to have had wooden, colonial-style vernacular houses arranged along the street to eventually create a row-house situation, all with center-peaked roofs at a very obtuse angle. The details on the houses could be Second Empire (top floor is dormers in a steeply sloping roof), Italianate (heavy dentils at eave line, near-flat roof), or Colonial, all mixed up on the same street. I simply do not think there is any kit you could use as a starting point for this type of situation." When we get styrene structure kits as donations at RPI, those that don't get resold get broke up by components - walls go in one box, windows in another, and so on, kind of like an scale architectural recycling yard. This gives us a pool of details that can be used when the need arises during scratchbuilding or kitbashing. Very few kits are used straight out of box. Don't hesitate to pick up kits for specific architectural details, ESPECIALLY if you can get them cheaply in a box lot at a train show or auction. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:33:45 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Altoona web site Steven, What web site ?? URL? Tom Hayden >Subject: RE: YAWN! >From: "Stephen H. Prosser" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:52:28 -0400 > > >Just for chuckles, I'll put some recent shots up on my web site (Alto, Rose, >Homer, Slope, the hump at Homer, the remains of the East Altoona Passenger >Station, some of those beautiful brick boxes (shops), some mystery cars (PC >can still be found!). Bla, bla, bla. >-- >Steve Prosser ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:49:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling --part1_a.30a28eee.2bfd243c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List This thread has brought back a flood of memories. I initially responded individually to several emails then began to write down a list of some of those memories. Following are some memories I have from the 5-'s and 60's. Specifically, they are from around the SW branch between Greensburg and New Stanton. The branch actually runs to Connellsville but I did not stray much beyond Greensburg and New Stanton. 1. The water flow that was described earlier, I remember it having an almost rust color. It would shine differently than water normally would. The crick am referring to was called "Jacks Run", the smell was horrendous. 2. In neighborhoods with the "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs being either marble like or stone like in 8' or 10' lengths. Knowing the economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have been marble. 3. Also in neighborhoods, mixed in with a block of single family and duplex residences were 2 story buildings. These would have a local grocery store, or other merchant on the first floor with apartments on the second floor. These apartments would have a large porch on the back second floor that ran the entire width of the building. The one I specifically recall was called the "Black and White Grocery Store". It was located in South Greensburg. There were houses on either side of the market. 4. Along with the narrow streets, there were one lane alleys or alley ways between blocks. They varied in construction materials. I remember all brick, patchy concrete, brick tread ways with concrete running down the sides and middle. Some were made with a lighter material like ash or cinders. In one home I lived in, the house ran right up to the alley, no walk way or yard. 5. In warmer weather, almost every home had their windows left open all day. (It was safe to do that then.) 6. I had a white '62 Chevy. I would clean it in the afternoon or evening only to find it covered with a fine layer of soot from the coal furnaces in the morning. Kind of like nature over weathering something. 7. As for ethnic clubs, I remember The Sons of Italy Club with its Bocci Ball pits on the side of the building. In the summer time, these pits were teaming with men playing Bocci Ball. 8. I remember Sears homes in whole neighborhoods. Some had brick siding, some frame with wood siding, some with brick and stucco and still others with cedar siding. The homes were very similar in size and shape but looked so totally different because of the siding. I don't know if the Sears house kits are still available but if they are, they could provide the perfect patterns for mass production. 9. In the summer time, the different Fire Companies would have a street fair or carnival. This was usually a crowd pleaser. We would normally have them in the parking lot next to the fire house or a field close by. 10. Finally, I remember fire alarm pull boxes on the corners of every other block. Usually, within 50 feet there was a fire plug/hydrant. Once again, thanks for jogging the memory of days gone by. Reading these responses is extremely enjoyable. Steve Keough --part1_a.30a28eee.2bfd243c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List

     This thread has brought back a flood of memories.&n= bsp; I initially responded individually to several emails then began to writ= e down a list of some of those memories.  Following are some memories I= have from the 5-'s and 60's.  Specifically, they are from around the S= W branch between Greensburg and New Stanton.  The branch actually runs=20= to Connellsville but I did not stray much beyond Greensburg and New Stanton.=      
       1.  The water flow that was descri= bed earlier, I remember it having an almost rust color.  It would shine= differently than water normally would.  The crick  am referring t= o was called "Jacks Run", the smell was horrendous.
       2.  In neighborhoods with the "yel= low" brick streets, I recall the curbs being either  marble like or sto= ne like in 8' or 10' lengths.  Knowing the economy of the area, I serio= usly doubt it would have been marble.
       3.  Also in neighborhoods, mixed i= n with a block of single family and duplex residences were 2 story buildings= .  These would have a local grocery store, or other merchant on the fir= st floor with apartments on the second floor.  These apartments would h= ave a large porch on the back second floor that ran the entire width of the=20= building.  The one I specifically recall was called the "Black and Whit= e Grocery Store".  It was located in South Greensburg.  There were= houses on either side of the market.
       4.  Along with the narrow streets,= there were one lane alleys or alley ways between blocks.  They varied=20= in construction materials.  I remember all brick, patchy concrete, bric= k tread ways with concrete running down the sides and middle.  Some wer= e made with a lighter material like ash or cinders.  In one home I live= d in, the house ran right up to the alley, no walk way or yard.
       5.  In warmer weather, almost ever= y home had their windows left open all day.  (It was safe to do that th= en.)
       6.  I had a white '62 Chevy. = I would clean it in the afternoon or evening only to find it covered with a= fine layer of soot from the coal furnaces in the morning.  Kind of lik= e nature over weathering something.
       7.  As for ethnic clubs, I remembe= r The Sons of Italy Club with its Bocci Ball pits on the side of the buildin= g.  In the summer time, these pits were teaming with men playing Bocci=20= Ball.
       8.  I remember Sears homes in whol= e neighborhoods.  Some had brick siding, some frame with wood siding, s= ome with brick and stucco and still others with cedar siding.  The home= s were very similar in size and shape but looked so totally different becaus= e of the siding.  I don't know if the Sears house kits are still availa= ble but if they are, they could provide the perfect patterns for mass produc= tion.
       9.  In the summer time, the differ= ent Fire Companies would have a street fair or carnival.  This was usua= lly a crowd pleaser.  We would normally have them in the parking lot ne= xt to the fire house or a field close by.
       10.  Finally, I remember fire alar= m pull boxes on the corners of every other block.  Usually, within 50 f= eet there was a fire plug/hydrant.

     Once again, thanks for jogging the memory of days g= one by.  Reading these responses is extremely enjoyable.

            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;        Steve Keough --part1_a.30a28eee.2bfd243c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:52:27 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Power (& equipment) for the Penn Texas Jerry, While you're adding that recreation car and MoPac sleepers, please don't forget the red and silver Texas Special Pullman. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:04:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power (& equipment) for the Penn Texas From: Jerry Britton On 5/21/03 2:52 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > While you're adding that recreation car and MoPac sleepers, please don't > forget the red and silver Texas Special Pullman. It was smack, dab in the middle of my previous post...not sure how you missed it... On 5/21/03 1:49 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 5/21/03 1:16 PM, Pennsy Nut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote: > >> Thanks a million for this thread. As you know, the Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS >> is the Penn Texas Chapter. So any and all info is greatly appreciated. >> > Should be quite a showy train when complete -- the unique recreation car, a > "Texas Special" car, and four MP "Eagle" cars! I'm having someone build the Texas Special 10-6 for me. It had shadlowlining and I don't care to learn the technique for one car! I've seen their work on a whole Texas Special train and was quite pleased...and this is N scale!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:24:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling Steve remembers: 2. In neighborhoods with the "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs being either marble like or stone like in 8' or 10' lengths. Knowing the economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have been marble. Granite? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:31:49 -0400 From: "George Pandelios" Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums & #1361 All, Strasburg has a number of railroad-related attractions: Toy Train Museum (Train Collectors of America) Choo-Choo Barn - a 3-rail operating layout ~1700 sq feet and associated shops (yes, I hear all you scale snobs snickering ;^) Strasburg Railroad & associated shops Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania All these places (plus the Red Caboose Motel) tend to create a very positive "train-like" atmosphere in Strasburg. As Bennett Levin pointed out, the Strasburg Railroad is the big draw, permitting the RRMPA to catch the overflow. I am member of the Friends of the Railroad Museum (as well as an O-gauge (Hi-Rail) modeler). To me, Strasburg is a very special place with a unique collection of railroad attractions. I also like the Railroaders' Museum in Altoona, but wish it wasn't so difficult to access. It really is off the beaten-track. Perhaps, the real solution to Altoona's access problems are literally right in front of us. What about regular excursion trains into Altoona from popular junction points? For example - Bedford Interchange (#11) on the PA Turnpike? What if a branch line (does one already exist?) ran between Bedford and Altoona? The package deal would include access to the Museum, the Curve (and small museum), and round-trip from your parking lot (kind of a long parking shuttle ride, isn't it? ;^) I haven't crunched any numbers to see if this would work financially - this is just speculation. What are your thoughts? George I've not been to Steamtown yet. >Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 >From: "Bennett Levin" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:46:11 -0400 > >If you take into consideration that attendence at the RRMPA is one-half the >attendence at the SRR, you could only conclude that without the SRR the >RRMPA would not nearly be the success that it is. The RRMPA has the highest >attendence rate of any museum in the State Museum System. If SRR was not the >neighbor it would languish and you would not have nearly as much >preservation success that the museum has enjoyed. The question is how do you >entice the other 50% of the SRR visitors to cross the street and pay an >admission to visit the RRMPA. With all the carping about location and >politics, you have to admit that the synergy is almost perfect especially >when one considers the population base within a 1 day RT drive. > >Bennett >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: "PRR-Talk" ; "Stephen H. Prosser" > >Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 > > >> history has shown nevertheless that >> > strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) >> >> Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known >tourist >> line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in >trains in >> a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a >group >> that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no >> infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was >> probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and >has >> proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania >need an >> equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a >never >> ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. >> > > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to >have it >> > > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once >again >> > > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? >> > >> > > So you would rather see millions spent on its restoration, only to >have it >> > > not only not run at Altoona, but gradually degrade in condition once >again >> > > if the museum is financially unable to maintain her? >> > >> > Jerry and List, >> > >> > I'm not yet convinced that a run at Altoona is impossible, although I >> > realize the general feeling is negative on this given NS's >recalcitrance. >> > So, no, I don't want a restoration of #1361 with degradation to follow. >The >> > question remains whether the Altoona museum can financially maintain her >and >> > put her to use. I was in Altoona last week and I saw the shed roof up; >the >> > plans still show a 1/4 Round to be built in the yard. A Hollidaysburg >run >> > from Alto? Back up to Milesburg like the earliest runs? Maybe? >> > >> > After driving through the Juniata yards last week, I realized again that >> > there is no place for Rail preservation like Altoona. Like so many >things >> > which seem like an impossibility, and political >> > influence (Steamtown) can accomplish surprising things for certain >locales. >> > >> > With the Horsehoe Curve, the ever-changing NS shop disposition, the vast >> > historically important shops, the completion of Interstate 99, and the >> > history of Altoona and its people as context, perhaps either kismet, >> > political influence, or plain common sense will prevail--and Altoona >will >> > get what it deserves--a first class interpretive site of the amazing >story >> > of the PRR and Altoona. >> > >> > Hope remains, >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Steve Prosser >> > Modeling Altoona and Environs >> > >> > _____________________________________________?\ >> > / =ALTOONA= | >> > / >| >> > \ HOME OF THE LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | >> > \____________________________________________ | >> > \ >| >> > >\| >> > >> > -- >> > >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 & Altoona Museum >From: "Jerry Britton" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:57:07 -0400 > >On 5/21/03 10:34 AM, Thomas von Trott (prr643@hotmail.com) wrote: > >> The reality is they have no place to run 1361 in Altoona. > >Hey, Bennett, how much track do you have at Juniata Terminal? ;-) >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums >From: "Ray Breyer" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:14:26 -0700 > >Strasburg makes lots of sense for a State RR museum location. There are two >huge tourist draws to that area: Strasburg RR and the Amish. It's strange; >the townsfolk themselves hate dealing with either, but readily take the >tourist dollars they draw. The only reason that dinky dive of a town is even >on the map is because of their two tourist attractions (just like >Gettysburg's only draw is the battlefield, and the townsfolk there dislike >THAT attraction). Both Gettysburg and Strasburg are close enough to major >East Coast population centers to make them attractive daytrip destinations. >No one in their right mind would want to vacation in Altoona (might as well >go to Shamokin...). > >Steamtown makes little sense, but more sense than Altoona. Scranton is on >the beaten path, has a good, long mainline, and has a nice set of buildings, >for a complete railroady package. Altoona is in the middle of nowhere, has >no mainline, Horseshoe is an oddball drive away (the highway or fun >backroads), and the only buildings are uninspiring rectangular things. That >and what equipment they do have is in a variety of decay, and there's no >rhyme nor reason to how it's displayed. > >>From my perspective, I think NS should be inticed to construct a railfan's >park somewhere in Altoona (like Rochelle), the Altoona museum should be >packed up and moved to Steamtown (they have more space than Strasburg), and >the buildings should be placed on the National Register of Historic Places, >and turned into Condos. The money saved from closing Altoona could be >better spent on fewer, but better, Pennsylvania RR museums. > >And lest you-all think that I'm just an uninformed Midwesterner, I've lived >in PA for five years. Four in Williamsport (Lycoming College) and one in >Scranton (first job). I've actually been to all these places, and know how >much or how little each has to offer. Personally, I like Strasburg the best, >but the city has zoned them into the space their in, with no room for >expansion. The threatened artifacts at Altoona have the best chance for >survival at Steamtown. > >As for 1361, she should be put back together and put on permanent display at >Steamtown. As it is, it looks like she'll never run again, and Steamtown >doesn't have any PRR engines (a travesty in a PA museum!) > >Ray Breyer (who likes Steamtown mostly for their three NKP engines!) > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of >ndbprr@att.net >Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:31 AM >To: PRR-Talk; Stephen H. Prosser >Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 > > >history has shown nevertheless that >> strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) > >Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known >tourist >line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in trains >in >a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a >group >that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no >infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was >probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and >has >proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania need >an >equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a >never >ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: RE: [PRR] #1361 >From: "Ray Breyer" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:19:39 -0700 > >You're not going to get the other half of the SRR's riders to cross the >street. They're there to ride the cute choo-choos, not because they're >railfans. The first time I went to the SRR, I got a guided tour of the >entire facility by one of their conductors, on Memorial Day Weekend, simply >because I was the first "real" railfan any of the crews had seen all season! >They told me that in reality, about 90% of their clientele are non-railfans, >and most of those have never even seen a steam engine before! > >Be glad attendance at the RRM o' PA is even CLOSE to 50% of SRR's. > >Ray Breyer > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bennett >Levin >Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:46 AM >To: Stephen H. Prosser; PRR-Talk; ndbprr@att.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 > > >If you take into consideration that attendence at the RRMPA is one-half the >attendence at the SRR, you could only conclude that without the SRR the >RRMPA would not nearly be the success that it is. The RRMPA has the highest >attendence rate of any museum in the State Museum System. If SRR was not the >neighbor it would languish and you would not have nearly as much >preservation success that the museum has enjoyed. The question is how do you >entice the other 50% of the SRR visitors to cross the street and pay an >admission to visit the RRMPA. With all the carping about location and >politics, you have to admit that the synergy is almost perfect especially >when one considers the population base within a 1 day RT drive. > >Bennett > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Commerical Kits Good for PRR and Regional Structures >From: "John Bruce" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:18:36 -0700 > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C31F71.93AD9CE0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >There are some commercial kits that will work for a PRR layout. > >IHC had a series of brick residential buildings that appear to have been = >copied from Philadelphia. Some of the ornament seemed over the top when = >I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, it's clearly = >prototypical. However, these would be for a big-city area. > >C.C.Crow has I-houses and Pennsylvania style barns. > >Does anyone know of others? =20 > >There are no commercial kits that I'm aware of for the common building = >design in New Jersey and elsewhere, the peaked roof at a very obtuse = >angle parallel to the street and windows that reach all the way up to = >the eaves. > >------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C31F71.93AD9CE0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
There are some commercial kits that will work for a = >PRR=20 >layout.
>
 
>
IHC had a series of brick residential buildings that = >appear to=20 >have been copied from Philadelphia.  Some of the ornament seemed = >over the=20 >top when I first saw the kits, but looking at subsequent photos, it's = >clearly=20 >prototypical.  However, these would be for a big-city = >area.
>
 
>
C.C.Crow has I-houses and Pennsylvania style=20 >barns.
>
 
>
Does anyone know of others? 
>
 
>
There are  no commercial kits that I'm aware of = >for the=20 >common building design in New Jersey and elsewhere, the peaked roof at a = >very=20 >obtuse angle parallel to the street and windows that reach all the way = >up to the=20 >eaves.
> >------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C31F71.93AD9CE0-- > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: 1361 >From: "Jerry Britton" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:33:59 -0400 > >Okay, this is a pure fantasy comment... > >The City of Harrisburg and the outlying areas is putting in a new commuter >rail system over the next couple of years. The first route will connect the >Harrisburg International Airport with Harrisburg (following the Amtrak main >line) and going west through Lemoyne, Mechanicsburg, to Carlisle (via the >ex-Cumberland Valley). > >That's a pretty good run! > >Now do it with K4s #1361! > >Harrisburg is already a draw for a variety of tourist attractions. Hosts the >National Civil War Museum, is an hour from Gettysburg, an hour from >Lancaster area (Strasburg), has its own baseball team, is 20 minutes from >Hershey, etc. > >I called this "commuter rail" and not "light rail" for a reason. Perhaps Dan >Cupper can chime in here. Since the new line will coexist with existing >rail, does that make it "regular rail" vs. "light rail"? I realize the gauge >would be the same, but would track coexist, or would all new rail be heavy >as well? > >Web site for new system is at http://www.cattransit.com/ . Click on Rail in >header. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 >From: "Bruce F. Smith" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:49:32 -0500 > >YAWN! > >Could I suggest those of you interested in rehashing the Steamtown, >Altoona, RRMoPA debate spend some time in the PRR-talk archives...seems to >me we just had this discussion a few months back. If you'll allow me to >summarize the points of view: > >1) Altoona is a tourist attraction...HAHAHAHAHA (Oh God, that is so >funny!) No offense, but you can build a 14 lane direct connector to every >major east coast metropolis and Altoona ain't gonna be a "tourist >destination". The museum lives in a small niche market and will need to >learn to survive on something other than the gate take and the gift shop. >Add to that, there is no place to run a K4. > >2) The K4 belongs with the "collection" in Strasburg...Yeah, and so does >the I1. You'll note that the collection is stationary, and is NOT the same >thing as the Strasburg RR...two DIFFERENT entities gang. If the K4 is on >the Strasburg, those 5 minute runs will be just stunning, eh? > >3) Steamtown...gang its only "pork barrel" spending when its the OTHER >guy's project! The money is going to help preserve railroad history!!! In >this case it is an insightful, far thinking, preservationist attitude >helping to save part of the industrialized history of our great >country...geez, I'd rather have my taxes go to that than some other >programs!! Seems like a no-brainer to me - they have the facilities, the >track, the tourist basis, the knowledge to run a big loco like 1361...I've >chased double headed steam out of there a few times and they have some >great locations as well...then 1361 can visit places like the curve once a >year IF insurance and the NS can be had... > >I have to admit to being amused at thought that this list is so ready and >willing to offer advice on just about every topic, from the design >construction of new railroad stations to the management of museums and >tourism! Glad to know our "expertise" is so broad ;^) > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums >From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:59:39 -0500 > >Based on what I saw during my visit to Scranton, there were not than many >buldings standing that were worth preservation until the government money >started flowing. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@cesinfo.com] >Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:14 PM >To: PRR-talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] PA museums > > >Strasburg makes lots of sense for a State RR museum location. There are two >huge tourist draws to that area: Strasburg RR and the Amish. It's strange; >the townsfolk themselves hate dealing with either, but readily take the >tourist dollars they draw. The only reason that dinky dive of a town is even >on the map is because of their two tourist attractions (just like >Gettysburg's only draw is the battlefield, and the townsfolk there dislike >THAT attraction). Both Gettysburg and Strasburg are close enough to major >East Coast population centers to make them attractive daytrip destinations. >No one in their right mind would want to vacation in Altoona (might as well >go to Shamokin...). > >Steamtown makes little sense, but more sense than Altoona. Scranton is on >the beaten path, has a good, long mainline, and has a nice set of buildings, >for a complete railroady package. Altoona is in the middle of nowhere, has >no mainline, Horseshoe is an oddball drive away (the highway or fun >backroads), and the only buildings are uninspiring rectangular things. That >and what equipment they do have is in a variety of decay, and there's no >rhyme nor reason to how it's displayed. > >>From my perspective, I think NS should be inticed to construct a railfan's >park somewhere in Altoona (like Rochelle), the Altoona museum should be >packed up and moved to Steamtown (they have more space than Strasburg), and >the buildings should be placed on the National Register of Historic Places, >and turned into Condos. The money saved from closing Altoona could be >better spent on fewer, but better, Pennsylvania RR museums. > >And lest you-all think that I'm just an uninformed Midwesterner, I've lived >in PA for five years. Four in Williamsport (Lycoming College) and one in >Scranton (first job). I've actually been to all these places, and know how >much or how little each has to offer. Personally, I like Strasburg the best, >but the city has zoned them into the space their in, with no room for >expansion. The threatened artifacts at Altoona have the best chance for >survival at Steamtown. > >As for 1361, she should be put back together and put on permanent display at >Steamtown. As it is, it looks like she'll never run again, and Steamtown >doesn't have any PRR engines (a travesty in a PA museum!) > >Ray Breyer (who likes Steamtown mostly for their three NKP engines!) > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of >ndbprr@att.net >Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:31 AM >To: PRR-Talk; Stephen H. Prosser >Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 > > >history has shown nevertheless that >> strange choices (Strasburg location for a State Museum) > >Boy do I ever disagree with that statement. An internationally known >tourist >line that is highly successful drawing crowds who have an interest in trains >in >a high population area that is a tourist mecca was a wrong choice over a >group >that was proposing an off the beaten path site that had abslutely no >infrasturcture or museum in place (read Altoona). My opinion is that was >probably the best choice as it could be done with the least investment and >has >proven to be a money making operation. Do the citizens of Pennsylvania need >an >equivalent of a Steamtown funded with their dollars somewhere else and a >never >ending sinkhole that increases every year? I'll take Strasburg any day. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:34:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH --part1_29.40720163.2bfd3cea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/21/03 10:41:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Thanks, guys, for this thread. > > One of the problems for us 'foreign' Pennsy modellers is the inability to > do > what Jerry correctly says is the first thing you should do in researching > the modelled area - go there and get hundreds of pictures. > > Simply put, I'm too far away to visit the area enough to get the photos and > do the research. That is the reason my layout will be a freelanced area in > south/west Pennsylvania - probably based on a little 'revised' history > where > the South Penn actually got built and was run by the PRR. > > I can model prototypical railroad items as there is such a vast quantity of > information available to us, including a bunch of truly excellent websites > (Jerry, Mark, Rob, George and so on and so on) and a whole raft of > excellent > books. However, I feel that the true merit of any model railroad is its > believability. It has to look real and it has to look as though it belongs > in the setting you choose. Hence my delight in this thread - for the first > time, I hear locals talking about how the non-railroad 'things' looked. > > Keep it up guys, we overseas SPFs are desperate for this. > > > Regards, Viv Brice > An SPF from 'Down Under' > Viv, I agree, this is a really satisfying thread... I also agree its very satisfying to be able to "go there" and see how the scene is laid out. However, railroad physical plant has been imploding in the 35 years since the end of the Pennsy, and what you see today is often only a strange shadow of what the animal was like in its heyday. Need I mention such changes as road names on cars and engines, welded rail, demolition of most railroad buildings as their functions went away, and the disappearance of maybe 49 out of 50 railroad employees who used to work "on the ground" (off the trains). More subtly, reductions of tracks and the rooting out of spurs, along with wholesale replacement of the 1942 generation of signals and C&S circuitry, has changed the look of any stretch of railroad. Finally, with the death of US manufacturing, the whole "backdrop" of industrial plants and warehouses has been cut up, torn down, and deleted from the scene. Indeed, if you didn't know your history, you'd wonder why most surviving PRR main lines were built where they are. Turning aside from the whole thing about "you can't go back" (I can't even go back, and I grew up there), we're all highly dependent on books, videos, slides, and other means of looking into the past. As Tony Koester and others remind us, that's offsite RESEARCH, a fun part of this hobby. Luckily (as you point out), we're now living in the era of the WEB, and can benefit from resources I could only dream about in 1970. It's not the same as having been there -- but it's pretty good in its own right. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_29.40720163.2bfd3cea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/21/03 10:41:17 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Thanks, guys, for this thread.<= BR>
One of the problems for us 'foreign' Pennsy modellers is the inability to do=
what Jerry correctly says is the first thing you should do in researching the modelled area - go there and get hundreds of pictures.

Simply put, I'm too far away to visit the area enough to get the photos and<= BR> do the research. That is the reason my layout will be a freelanced area in south/west Pennsylvania - probably based on a little 'revised' history where=
the South Penn actually got built and was run by the PRR.

I can model prototypical railroad items as there is such a vast quantity of<= BR> information available to us, including a bunch of truly excellent websites (Jerry, Mark, Rob, George and so on and so on) and a whole raft of excellent=
books. However, I feel that the true merit of any model railroad is its
believability. It has to look real and it has to look as though it belongs in the setting you choose. Hence my delight in this thread - for the first time, I hear locals talking about how the non-railroad 'things' looked.

Keep it up guys, we overseas SPFs are desperate for this.


Regards, Viv Brice
An SPF from 'Down Under'


Viv,

I agree, this is a really satisfying thread...

I also agree its very satisfying to be able to "go there" and see how the sc= ene is laid out.  However, railroad physical plant has been imploding i= n the 35 years since the end of the Pennsy, and what you see today is often=20= only a strange shadow of what the animal was like in its heyday.

Need I mention such changes as road names on cars and engines, welded rail,=20= demolition of most railroad buildings as their functions went away, and the=20= disappearance of maybe 49 out of 50 railroad employees who used to work "on=20= the ground" (off the trains).  More subtly, reductions of tracks and th= e rooting out of spurs, along with wholesale replacement of the 1942 generat= ion of signals and C&S circuitry, has changed the look of any stretch of= railroad.  Finally, with the death of US manufacturing, the whole "bac= kdrop" of industrial plants and warehouses has been cut up, torn down, and d= eleted from the scene.  Indeed, if you didn't know your history, you'd=20= wonder why most surviving PRR main lines were built where they are.

Turning aside from the whole thing about "you can't go back" (I can't even g= o back, and I grew up there),  we're all highly dependent on books, vid= eos, slides, and other means of looking into the past.  As Tony Koester= and others remind us, that's offsite RESEARCH, a fun part of this hobby.
Luckily (as you point out), we're now living in the era of the WEB, and can=20= benefit from resources I could only dream about in 1970.  It's not the=20= same as having been there -- but it's pretty good in its own right.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_29.40720163.2bfd3cea_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling Bruce, Most Likely Sand Stone Curbs. Plenty of that still remains in Beaver Falls, although upgrading to concrete has been going on for some time now. .....Gary. Thread: 2. In neighborhoods with the "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs being either marble like or stone like in 8' or 10' lengths. Knowing the economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have been marble. Granite? Happy Rails Bruce Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:57:44 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C31FE4.01DF6CD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick, I agree as I am on the far side of the "pond" to the USA. Patrick Grace ( in the UK ) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:34 PM Subject: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH In a message dated 5/21/03 10:41:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Thanks, guys, for this thread. One of the problems for us 'foreign' Pennsy modellers is the = inability to do what Jerry correctly says is the first thing you should do in = researching the modelled area - go there and get hundreds of pictures. Simply put, I'm too far away to visit the area enough to get the = photos and do the research. That is the reason my layout will be a freelanced = area in south/west Pennsylvania - probably based on a little 'revised' = history where the South Penn actually got built and was run by the PRR. I can model prototypical railroad items as there is such a vast = quantity of information available to us, including a bunch of truly excellent = websites (Jerry, Mark, Rob, George and so on and so on) and a whole raft of = excellent books. However, I feel that the true merit of any model railroad is = its believability. It has to look real and it has to look as though it = belongs in the setting you choose. Hence my delight in this thread - for the = first time, I hear locals talking about how the non-railroad 'things' = looked. Keep it up guys, we overseas SPFs are desperate for this. Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' Viv, I agree, this is a really satisfying thread... I also agree its very satisfying to be able to "go there" and see how = the scene is laid out. However, railroad physical plant has been = imploding in the 35 years since the end of the Pennsy, and what you see = today is often only a strange shadow of what the animal was like in its = heyday. Need I mention such changes as road names on cars and engines, welded = rail, demolition of most railroad buildings as their functions went = away, and the disappearance of maybe 49 out of 50 railroad employees who = used to work "on the ground" (off the trains). More subtly, reductions = of tracks and the rooting out of spurs, along with wholesale replacement = of the 1942 generation of signals and C&S circuitry, has changed the = look of any stretch of railroad. Finally, with the death of US = manufacturing, the whole "backdrop" of industrial plants and warehouses = has been cut up, torn down, and deleted from the scene. Indeed, if you = didn't know your history, you'd wonder why most surviving PRR main lines = were built where they are.=20 Turning aside from the whole thing about "you can't go back" (I can't = even go back, and I grew up there), we're all highly dependent on = books, videos, slides, and other means of looking into the past. As = Tony Koester and others remind us, that's offsite RESEARCH, a fun part = of this hobby. Luckily (as you point out), we're now living in the era of the WEB, = and can benefit from resources I could only dream about in 1970. It's = not the same as having been there -- but it's pretty good in its own = right. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C31FE4.01DF6CD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rick,
 
I agree as I am on the far side of the = "pond" to=20 the USA.
 
Patrick Grace
 
( in the UK )
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com =
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 9:34=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] research vs.=20 RESEARCH

In a message dated 5/21/03 10:41:17 AM Eastern = Daylight=20 Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Thanks, guys, for this thread.

One of the = problems for us=20 'foreign' Pennsy modellers is the inability to do
what Jerry = correctly=20 says is the first thing you should do in researching
the modelled = area -=20 go there and get hundreds of pictures.

Simply put, I'm too = far away=20 to visit the area enough to get the photos and
do the research. = That is=20 the reason my layout will be a freelanced area in
south/west = Pennsylvania=20 - probably based on a little 'revised' history where
the South = Penn=20 actually got built and was run by the PRR.

I can model = prototypical=20 railroad items as there is such a vast quantity of
information = available=20 to us, including a bunch of truly excellent websites
(Jerry, = Mark, Rob,=20 George and so on and so on) and a whole raft of excellent
books. = However,=20 I feel that the true merit of any model railroad is = its
believability. It=20 has to look real and it has to look as though it belongs
in the = setting=20 you choose. Hence my delight in this thread - for the first
time, = I hear=20 locals talking about how the non-railroad 'things' = looked.

Keep it up=20 guys, we overseas SPFs are desperate for this.


Regards, = Viv=20 Brice
An SPF from 'Down = Under'


Viv,

I agree,=20 this is a really satisfying thread...

I also agree its very = satisfying=20 to be able to "go there" and see how the scene is laid out.  = However,=20 railroad physical plant has been imploding in the 35 years since the = end of=20 the Pennsy, and what you see today is often only a strange shadow of = what the=20 animal was like in its heyday.

Need I mention such changes as = road=20 names on cars and engines, welded rail, demolition of most railroad = buildings=20 as their functions went away, and the disappearance of maybe 49 out of = 50=20 railroad employees who used to work "on the ground" (off the = trains). =20 More subtly, reductions of tracks and the rooting out of spurs, along = with=20 wholesale replacement of the 1942 generation of signals and C&S = circuitry,=20 has changed the look of any stretch of railroad.  Finally, with = the death=20 of US manufacturing, the whole "backdrop" of industrial plants and = warehouses=20 has been cut up, torn down, and deleted from the scene.  Indeed, = if you=20 didn't know your history, you'd wonder why most surviving PRR main = lines were=20 built where they are.

Turning aside from the whole thing about = "you=20 can't go back" (I can't even go back, and I grew up there),  = we're all=20 highly dependent on books, videos, slides, and other means of looking = into the=20 past.  As Tony Koester and others remind us, that's offsite = RESEARCH, a=20 fun part of this hobby.

Luckily (as you point out), we're now = living in=20 the era of the WEB, and can benefit from resources I could only dream = about in=20 1970.  It's not the same as having been there -- but it's pretty = good in=20 its own right.

Rick = Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and=20 especially PRR Lines West
------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C31FE4.01DF6CD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:02:08 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FDC.3DE65FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In Pittsburgh, the usual was buff sandstone that weathered to a grey color, but limestone was sometimes used, which was lighter grey with a finer texture. Given limestone's mineral composition, this could look a lot like marble. I've seen granite or diorite elsewhere, but W. Pa. does not have much of that. Another feature of sidewalks and curbs in that area was the amount of offset between pieces of pavement, slabs, curbs and street surfaces. It varied widely. As was said, sometimes the street surface lay only slightly below the sidewalk, due to re-paving or maybe not. But you often see slabs tilted every which way, either by tree roots or settlement. This is a feature I want to incorporate in some way. I used commercial paving on the portions of my layout that I have already done and am not complete happy with the way it turned out, even with etched cracks and all. It is also too tan colored for my taste, even though I used concrete with quite a lot of grey in it. I am contemplating using cut pieces for the next installment, and putting them in with some variation in height. Also, storm drains with visible open space beneath. Do you remember those storm drains that had an opening in the face of the curb and a round manhole on the sidewalk surface behind it? Both the storm drain inlet and manhole were iron castings with lettering on them? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:24 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling Steve remembers: 2. In neighborhoods with the "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs being either marble like or stone like in 8' or 10' lengths. Knowing the economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have been marble. Granite? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FDC.3DE65FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling

In Pittsburgh, the usual was buff sandstone that = weathered to a grey color, but limestone was sometimes used, which was = lighter grey with a finer texture.  Given limestone's mineral = composition, this could look a lot like marble.  I've seen granite = or diorite elsewhere, but W. Pa. does not have much of that.

Another feature of sidewalks and curbs in that area = was the amount of offset between pieces of pavement, slabs, curbs and = street surfaces.  It varied widely.  As was said, sometimes = the street surface lay only slightly below the sidewalk, due to = re-paving or maybe not.  But you often see slabs tilted every = which way, either by tree roots or settlement.  This is a feature = I want to incorporate in some way.  I used commercial paving on = the portions of my layout that I have already done and am not complete = happy with the way it turned out, even with etched cracks and = all.  It is also too tan colored for my taste, even though I used = concrete with quite a lot of grey in it.  I am contemplating using = cut pieces for the next installment, and putting them in with some = variation in height.  Also, storm drains with visible open space = beneath.  Do you remember those storm drains that had an opening = in the face of the curb and a round manhole on the sidewalk surface = behind it?  Both the storm drain inlet and manhole were iron = castings with lettering on them?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:24 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Western PA and PRR = modeling


Steve remembers:
2.  In neighborhoods with the = "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs
being either  marble like or stone like in 8' = or 10' lengths.  Knowing the
economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have = been marble.

Granite?

Happy Rails
Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to = be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;    __
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   /  \
  = __<+--+>________________\__/___   = ____________________________________
 |- ______/ = O        O \_______ -| | __  = __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ = |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ = | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_____________________________\|_|______________________= ______________|
 | O--O     \0  = 0  0  0/    O--O |   = 0-0-0           &= nbsp;            = 0-0-0



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FDC.3DE65FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Brick Streets Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:06:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C31FBB.4C40DAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 60 years old, my eye. Those pavers were 60 years old 60 years ago. Try 100, at least. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ELDEN GATWOOD Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:09 PM To: 'John Bruce'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Brick Streets Hi all; There are a number of streets paved with Belgian Block (cobblestone) still around, in the Pittsburgh area. It is wonderful to find them in this day and age, but they survive due to the reluctance of some cities to convert to the more slippery ("slippy" in Pittsburghese) surface that macadam or concrete provide on steep hills. There is a very steep (>8%) hill in Duquesne that has a surface that has got to be over 60 years old. It is deeply rutted (actually the blocks have been pushed deeper into the subsurface materials over time) and patched in places with asphalt, but still in good enough condition to function as a major artery in the City. I have spent many hours trying to figure out how to model this one, and some other unique features of that area on my layout. I have resigned myself to eventually having to carve in in plaster, but any suggestions would be more than welcome. There are also numerous alleys and side streets in the area still paved with red brick, also a durable, long-lasting surface that does well in the icy and destructive Pittsburgh climate/environment. Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:12 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Brick Streets Kevin Trichtinger wrote, Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on streets and even country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts paved with concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's and perhaps even the early 50's. The reason for paving stones or bricks was to give a surface for horses to get traction. Horses were still used on utility, ice, and milk wagons in the 1930s and 40s. The Travel Town museum in Los Angeles has a very 1930s airflow-type horse drawn milk truck! ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C31FBB.4C40DAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
60=20 years old, my eye.  Those pavers were 60 years old 60 years = ago.  Try=20 100, at least.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ELDEN = GATWOOD
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:09 PM
To: = 'John=20 Bruce'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Brick=20 Streets

Hi=20 all;
There are a number of streets paved with Belgian Block = (cobblestone)=20 still around, in the Pittsburgh area.  It is wonderful to find = them in=20 this day and age, but they survive due to the reluctance of some = cities to=20 convert to the more slippery ("slippy" in Pittsburghese) surface that = macadam=20 or concrete provide on steep hills. There is a very steep (>8%) = hill in=20 Duquesne that has a surface that has got to be over 60 years = old.  It is=20 deeply rutted (actually the blocks have been pushed deeper into the = subsurface=20 materials over time) and patched in places with asphalt, but still in = good=20 enough condition to function as a major artery in the City.  I = have spent=20 many hours trying to figure out how to model this one, and some other = unique=20 features of that area on my layout.  I have resigned myself to = eventually=20 having to carve in in plaster, but any suggestions would be more than=20 welcome.
There are also numerous alleys and side streets in the area = still paved=20 with red brick, also a durable, long-lasting surface that does well in = the icy=20 and destructive Pittsburgh climate/environment.
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: John Bruce=20 [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 10:12=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Brick=20 Streets

Kevin Trichtinger wrote,
 
Note that it was not uncommon to find hills on = streets and=20 even
country roads paved with brick, with the more level parts = paved=20 with
concrete or macadam. This was fairly common into the 1940's=20 and
perhaps even the early 50's.

The reason for paving stones or bricks was to = give a=20 surface for horses to get traction.   Horses were still = used on=20 utility, ice, and milk wagons in the 1930s and 40s.   The = Travel=20 Town museum in Los Angeles has a very 1930s airflow-type horse drawn = milk=20 truck!
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C31FBB.4C40DAD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:35:58 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FE0.F77485D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Patrick, Viv, and all; I am glad that Jerry is letting us "go there". This is a subject that I rarely get to discuss outside my little group of friends that like this stuff. If you seriously want to know more details, keep asking. That's what we're here for. And I also have continual questions (ask my friends), and am very pleased each time I hear another subject opened up. There is so much to prototype model railroading that makes anyone's modeling better. We just don't tend to discuss the non-railroady features in these forums. I apologize that we hadn't done this well so far. There are also model railroads that have done well, even on the opposite side of the ocean; John Wright's being one. While there are commonalities between his neck of the woods and PRR country, he admitted that he had to adapt his usual techniques a little to match the Pittsburgh area look. And the result is astounding! Just goes to show how a trained eye can pick up the right balance. And Rick is right, too much has changed for our tastes. Yet, I still go back to Pittsburgh for my annual "pilgrimage" and take hundreds of photos/images each time. There is still that much to look for, and much of it is in the associated areas we need to get right on our layouts or modeling. There was a discussion some time ago about the differences in the way freight cars weather in different parts of the country, including a discussion on the possible factors. One thing I noticed on both my diesels and freight cars was that weathering that leant toward the cooler portion of the spectrum did not look exactly right. Neither did muddy colors. My opinion of Pennsy country is that there is a reddish cast to all but the buildings, unless they are not red brick... I think it has something to do with the clay soils, acid rain, and resulting rusty cast to things. Although much of the building background appears sooty (Grimy Black to my eye), there's a clear rusty cast to RR equipment that sits out in that arena. But that same muddy cast that doesn't look right in Pgh looks good in the American southwest (SP, ATSF). What does everyone else think? Elden -----Original Message----- From: PGrace [mailto:pgrace@aspects.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:58 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH Rick, I agree as I am on the far side of the "pond" to the USA. Patrick Grace ( in the UK ) ----- Original Message ----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:34 PM Subject: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH In a message dated 5/21/03 10:41:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Thanks, guys, for this thread. One of the problems for us 'foreign' Pennsy modellers is the inability to do what Jerry correctly says is the first thing you should do in researching the modelled area - go there and get hundreds of pictures. Simply put, I'm too far away to visit the area enough to get the photos and do the research. That is the reason my layout will be a freelanced area in south/west Pennsylvania - probably based on a little 'revised' history where the South Penn actually got built and was run by the PRR. I can model prototypical railroad items as there is such a vast quantity of information available to us, including a bunch of truly excellent websites (Jerry, Mark, Rob, George and so on and so on) and a whole raft of excellent books. However, I feel that the true merit of any model railroad is its believability. It has to look real and it has to look as though it belongs in the setting you choose. Hence my delight in this thread - for the first time, I hear locals talking about how the non-railroad 'things' looked. Keep it up guys, we overseas SPFs are desperate for this. Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' Viv, I agree, this is a really satisfying thread... I also agree its very satisfying to be able to "go there" and see how the scene is laid out. However, railroad physical plant has been imploding in the 35 years since the end of the Pennsy, and what you see today is often only a strange shadow of what the animal was like in its heyday. Need I mention such changes as road names on cars and engines, welded rail, demolition of most railroad buildings as their functions went away, and the disappearance of maybe 49 out of 50 railroad employees who used to work "on the ground" (off the trains). More subtly, reductions of tracks and the rooting out of spurs, along with wholesale replacement of the 1942 generation of signals and C&S circuitry, has changed the look of any stretch of railroad. Finally, with the death of US manufacturing, the whole "backdrop" of industrial plants and warehouses has been cut up, torn down, and deleted from the scene. Indeed, if you didn't know your history, you'd wonder why most surviving PRR main lines were built where they are. Turning aside from the whole thing about "you can't go back" (I can't even go back, and I grew up there), we're all highly dependent on books, videos, slides, and other means of looking into the past. As Tony Koester and others remind us, that's offsite RESEARCH, a fun part of this hobby. Luckily (as you point out), we're now living in the era of the WEB, and can benefit from resources I could only dream about in 1970. It's not the same as having been there -- but it's pretty good in its own right. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FE0.F77485D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Patrick, Viv, and all;
    I am glad that Jerry is letting us "go there".  This is a subject that I rarely get to discuss outside my little group of friends that like this stuff.  If you seriously want to know more details, keep asking.  That's what we're here for.  And I also have continual questions (ask my friends), and am very pleased each time I hear another subject opened up.
    There is so much to prototype model railroading that makes anyone's modeling better.  We just don't tend to discuss the non-railroady features in these forums.  I apologize that we hadn't done this well so far.
    There are also model railroads that have done well, even on the opposite side of the ocean; John Wright's being one.  While there are commonalities between his neck of the woods and PRR country, he admitted that he had to adapt his usual techniques a little to match the Pittsburgh area look.  And the result is astounding!  Just goes to show how a trained eye can pick up the right balance.
    And Rick is right, too much has changed for our tastes.  Yet, I still go back to Pittsburgh for my annual "pilgrimage" and take hundreds of photos/images each time.  There is still that much to look for, and much of it is in the associated areas we need to get right on our layouts or modeling.
    There was a discussion some time ago about the differences in the way freight cars weather in different parts of the country, including a discussion on the possible factors.  One thing I noticed on both my diesels and freight cars was that weathering that leant toward the cooler portion of the spectrum did not look exactly right.  Neither did muddy colors.  My opinion of Pennsy country is that there is a reddish cast to all but the buildings, unless they are not red brick...  I think it has something to do with the clay soils, acid rain, and resulting rusty cast to things.  Although much of the building background appears sooty (Grimy Black to my eye), there's a clear rusty cast to RR equipment that sits out in that arena.  But that same muddy cast that doesn't look right in Pgh looks good in the American southwest (SP, ATSF).  What does everyone else think?
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: PGrace [mailto:pgrace@aspects.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:58 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH

Rick,
 
I agree as I am on the far side of the "pond" to the USA.
 
Patrick Grace
 
( in the UK )
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:34 PM
Subject: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH

In a message dated 5/21/03 10:41:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Thanks, guys, for this thread.

One of the problems for us 'foreign' Pennsy modellers is the inability to do
what Jerry correctly says is the first thing you should do in researching
the modelled area - go there and get hundreds of pictures.

Simply put, I'm too far away to visit the area enough to get the photos and
do the research. That is the reason my layout will be a freelanced area in
south/west Pennsylvania - probably based on a little 'revised' history where
the South Penn actually got built and was run by the PRR.

I can model prototypical railroad items as there is such a vast quantity of
information available to us, including a bunch of truly excellent websites
(Jerry, Mark, Rob, George and so on and so on) and a whole raft of excellent
books. However, I feel that the true merit of any model railroad is its
believability. It has to look real and it has to look as though it belongs
in the setting you choose. Hence my delight in this thread - for the first
time, I hear locals talking about how the non-railroad 'things' looked.

Keep it up guys, we overseas SPFs are desperate for this.


Regards, Viv Brice
An SPF from 'Down Under'


Viv,

I agree, this is a really satisfying thread...

I also agree its very satisfying to be able to "go there" and see how the scene is laid out.  However, railroad physical plant has been imploding in the 35 years since the end of the Pennsy, and what you see today is often only a strange shadow of what the animal was like in its heyday.

Need I mention such changes as road names on cars and engines, welded rail, demolition of most railroad buildings as their functions went away, and the disappearance of maybe 49 out of 50 railroad employees who used to work "on the ground" (off the trains).  More subtly, reductions of tracks and the rooting out of spurs, along with wholesale replacement of the 1942 generation of signals and C&S circuitry, has changed the look of any stretch of railroad.  Finally, with the death of US manufacturing, the whole "backdrop" of industrial plants and warehouses has been cut up, torn down, and deleted from the scene.  Indeed, if you didn't know your history, you'd wonder why most surviving PRR main lines were built where they are.

Turning aside from the whole thing about "you can't go back" (I can't even go back, and I grew up there),  we're all highly dependent on books, videos, slides, and other means of looking into the past.  As Tony Koester and others remind us, that's offsite RESEARCH, a fun part of this hobby.

Luckily (as you point out), we're now living in the era of the WEB, and can benefit from resources I could only dream about in 1970.  It's not the same as having been there -- but it's pretty good in its own right.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FE0.F77485D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Penn Station incident Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:38:09 +0000 Well since we have beaten the museum debacle to death this was on the Kalmbach web site. Suspicious passenger prompts Penn Station evacuation NEW YORK CITY – As the federal government raised the nation’s alert level to “high risk,” reports of a suspicious passenger aboard an Amtrak train caused a partial evacuation, and some train service interruptions, at New York’s Penn Station, Amtrak’s busiest station. Northeast Corridor Regional train 174, en route from Washington to Boston, arrived at Penn Station shortly after Noon and was searched by a bomb-sniffing dog, which according to sources, found something that made it suspicious. Authorities immediately ordered the evacuation of the station platform, as well as the pedestrian hallway above it. Police searched the passenger’s belongings, but turned up nothing of concern. After questioning by Amtrak police, the man was turned over to federal authorities on immigration violations. Rail service in and out of the station resumed shortly after 3 p.m. The police action delayed some two-dozen Amtrak trains, plus those of commuter railroads Long Island Rail Road and New Jersey Transit. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Cessna" Subject: [PRR] Altoona and 1361 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:00:20 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C31FC2.D8083980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK everyone, since this seems to come to a boil about once every six = months or so, I will regrettably respond to all the recent posts about = the state of affairs here in Altoona and #1361. First of all, while I = am not naive enough to believe we are the northeast's answer to Disney, = Altoona is not as "far off the beaten path" as you all seem to believe. = The museum sits blocks off of Interstate 99 and is only 30 minutes from = the PA Turnpike. Over 106,000 football fans seems to find us on every = home Penn State football weekend! We are the home (Blair County = Ballpark) of the Altoona Curve baseball team, the AA Affiliate of the = Pittsburgh Pirates and the team has set attendance records each of the 4 = previous seasons they have been here. We have as much to offer the = outdoor recreation enthusiast as the rest of the state -- with Prince = Gallitzin State Park and Raystown Lake for the boating and camping = enthusiast to Blue Knob Ski Resort (highest skiable mountain in PA) for = the winter sports lover. We host the Tour DeToona Bike race each summer = - one of the premier cycling events in the country. We have golf = courses galore and have not only our railroaders museum attractions but = the Gallitzin Tunnels and the Allegheny Portage Railroad. We are a = stone's throw from the EBT as well. Second, I take a offense to the comment that we are "asleep" here as it = relates to museum operation. I have been the director here since = November and can assure you I have gotten very little sleep since then. = We are working hard to make this the best operation of its kind. To the = gentleman who made rather disparaging remarks about us and said the = entire museum in Altoona should be "packed up and sent to Steamtown", I = can only offer this -- you must be kidding me!! You obviously spent no = time in this museum or you would realize that nothing contained in this = building could possibly be interpreted and appreciated in Scranton. It = is all about the Altoona experience. Some have called us a "niche" museum. So what! I can live with that. = We are what we are and can offer no more. We are not a "PRR" museum, we = are not the "State" museum. We are THE railroaders museum - I said = railroader not railroad. You will not find this "personal" story in any = other rail museum in the country. It is a story of how this city came = to be what it came to be. We claim to be no more and no less. I have = every confidence we can succeed on this presentation - "off the beaten = path" as we are. Get a current map in your hands and see how easy it is = to get here. Visit the web sites at Westsylvania.org and = Alleghenymountains.org and see what we have to offer. OK - the K4. Let's end this right here and now. It is OUR locomotive. = While I can appreciate everyone on this list wanting to write us off and = give it away, none of you have the authority to do that. The money, = know-how and personnel are in place to finish the restoration and return = her to operating condition and that is what we are going to do. If ANY = of you had been handed the money and were told to restore that = locomotive that is exactly what you would have done - so that is what we = are doing. Some of you said the money could have been better used to = right the wrongs here at the museum. Sorry - it doesn't work that way. = This is a "color of money" issue. Capital funds are capital funds and = CANNOT be used to pay operating expenses. Case closed. Some of you = poor-mouthed our roundhouse saying it wasn't a quarter roundhouse "as = advertised". Nobody here is advertising a quarter roundhouse. We are = advertising the fact that one is going to be built and the money is in = place to accomplish that and the drawings are being finished as I write = this email. If you want to see yard plans, stop by my office and I will = gladly show them to you. Might we run the locomotive elsewhere - yes. Will it "live" here in = Altoona - most certainly YES. Is insurance a concern - definitely. = Guess what - it is a concern in Scranton and Strasburg too! Do you all = think that those 2 operations are immune from the high cost of a steam = program? I would argue with those of you that said the short lines here = in the area are "too far away" or not suitable for operation of #1361. = On those short lines is exactly where we plan to run her. Anyone who = has seen the video of the inaugural run from Tyrone in the 80's can tell = you what a nice ride it is. We also have the option of the RJ Corman in = Clearfield County. This is not going to be a locomotive that is run on = a daily basis - that just isn't feasible. So in closing, the debate can = cease right now. It is coming back to Altoona to stay and we will = venture out with it as we see fit. If that doesn't meet your = expectations, I'm sorry but that is how it is going to be. If you would = like to continue debating a subject you have no authoritative stake in, = feel free to continue. However, make sure you have done your homework = before lending your expertise on either the condition of our facility or = the state of our wonderful central Pennsylvania community. =20 Scott Cessna Director Railroaders Memorial Museum 814-946-0834 ext 224 Fax 814-946-9457 ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C31FC2.D8083980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK everyone, since this seems to come = to a boil=20 about once every six months or so, I will regrettably respond to all the = recent=20 posts about the state of affairs here in Altoona and #1361.  First = of all,=20 while I am not naive enough to believe we are the northeast's answer to = Disney,=20 Altoona is not as "far off the beaten path" as you all seem to = believe. =20 The museum sits blocks off of Interstate 99 and is only 30 minutes from = the PA=20 Turnpike.  Over 106,000 football fans seems to find us on = every home=20 Penn State football weekend!  We are the home (Blair County = Ballpark) of=20 the Altoona Curve baseball team, the AA Affiliate of the Pittsburgh = Pirates and=20 the team has set attendance records each of the 4 previous seasons = they=20 have been here.  We have as much to offer the outdoor recreation = enthusiast=20 as the rest of the state -- with Prince Gallitzin State Park and = Raystown Lake=20 for the boating and camping enthusiast to Blue Knob Ski Resort (highest = skiable=20 mountain in PA) for the winter sports lover.  We host the Tour = DeToona Bike=20 race each summer - one of the premier cycling events in the = country.  We=20 have golf courses galore and have not only our railroaders museum = attractions=20 but the Gallitzin Tunnels and the Allegheny Portage = Railroad.  We are=20 a stone's throw from the EBT as well.
 
Second,  I take a offense to the = comment that=20 we are "asleep" here as it relates to museum operation.  I have = been the=20 director here since November and can assure you I have gotten very = little sleep=20 since then.  We are working hard to make this the best operation of = its=20 kind.  To the gentleman who made rather disparaging remarks about = us and=20 said the entire museum in Altoona should be "packed up and sent to = Steamtown", I=20 can only offer this -- you must be kidding me!!  You obviously = spent no=20 time in this museum or you would realize that nothing contained in this = building=20 could possibly be interpreted and appreciated in Scranton.  It is = all about=20 the Altoona experience.
 
Some have called us a "niche" = museum.  So=20 what! I can live with that.  We are what we are and can offer no=20 more.  We are not a "PRR" museum, we are not the "State" = museum.  We=20 are THE railroaders museum - I said railroader not = railroad.  You=20 will not find this "personal" story in any other rail museum in the = country.  It is a story of how this city came to be = what it came=20 to be.  We claim to be no more and no less.  I have every = confidence=20 we can succeed on this presentation - "off the beaten path" as we = are.  Get=20 a current map in your hands and see how easy it is to get here.  = Visit the=20 web sites at Westsylvania.org and Alleghenymountains.org and see what we = have to=20 offer.
 
OK - the K4.  Let's end this = right here=20 and now.  It is OUR locomotive.  While I can appreciate = everyone on=20 this list wanting to write us off and give it away, none of you = have the=20 authority to do that.  The money, know-how and personnel are in = place to=20 finish the restoration and return her to operating condition and that is = what we=20 are going to do.  If ANY of you had been handed the money and were = told to=20 restore that locomotive that is exactly what you would have done - so = that is=20 what we are doing.  Some of you said the money could have been = better used=20 to right the wrongs here at the museum.  Sorry - it doesn't work = that=20 way.  This is a "color of money" issue.  Capital funds are = capital=20 funds and CANNOT be used to pay operating expenses.  Case = closed. =20 Some of you poor-mouthed our roundhouse saying it wasn't a quarter = roundhouse=20 "as advertised".  Nobody here is advertising a quarter = roundhouse.  We=20 are advertising the fact that one is going to be built and the money is = in place=20 to accomplish that and the drawings are being finished as I write this=20 email.  If you want to see yard plans, stop by my office and I = will=20 gladly show them to you.
 
Might we run the locomotive elsewhere - = yes. =20 Will it "live" here in Altoona - most certainly YES.  Is insurance = a=20 concern - definitely.  Guess what - it is a concern in Scranton and = Strasburg too!  Do you all think that those 2 operations are immune = from=20 the high cost of a steam program?  I would argue with those of you = that=20 said the short lines here in the area are "too far away" or not suitable = for=20 operation of #1361.  On those short lines is exactly where we plan = to run=20 her.  Anyone who has seen the video of the inaugural run from = Tyrone in the=20 80's can tell you what a nice ride it is.  We also have the option = of the=20 RJ Corman in Clearfield County.  This is not going to be a = locomotive that=20 is run on a daily basis - that just isn't feasible.  So in closing, = the=20 debate can cease right now.  It is coming back to Altoona to stay = and we=20 will venture out with it as we see fit.  If that doesn't meet your=20 expectations, I'm sorry but that is how it is going to be.  If you = would=20 like to continue debating a subject you have no authoritative stake in, = feel=20 free to continue.  However, make sure you have done your homework = before=20 lending your expertise on either the condition of our facility or the = state of=20 our wonderful central Pennsylvania community.
 
Scott Cessna
Director
Railroaders = Memorial=20 Museum
814-946-0834  ext 224
Fax=20 814-946-9457
------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C31FC2.D8083980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:09:22 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling --- LKeough107@aol.com wrote: > 1. The water flow that was described earlier, I remember it > having an > almost rust color. It would shine differently than water normally > would. > The crick am referring to was called "Jacks Run", the smell was > horrendous. If the mine water hadn't made the water opaque orange, you would have been able to see the gray stain of domestic sewage. Sewage treatment plants were unknown outside large cities. In summer, when the water was low, the Loyalhanna Creek in Latrobe would, as the saying goes, gag a maggot. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Weathering Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:04:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C31FB2.ACEF27A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Elden has hit one of my hot-button items. I am still digesting his = presentation on modeling gons, so I am not going to say anything about = gons. However, a major factor in weathering all over the US is tunnels. = Equipment that went through northern and central California went through = many tunnels that deposited soot on it, both in the steam and diesel = eras. The claim has been made that the soot was worse in the diesel = era. The same would apply to parts of the PRR, such as the Middle = Division. However, it's worth noting that the Baltimore and Hudson = River tunnels, even without a lot of steam, seem to have made equipment = sooty. There was nowhere else Congressional cars could go to get their = roofs as dirty as they were. (Note the instructions in employee = timetables to avoid steam discharge from steam generators in the = Baltimore tunnels -- would presumably bring down old soot).=20 This also applies to lines like the Chicago Great Western that had only = one tunnel. Their cabooses got very sooty, though the locos seem to = have been washed frequently.=20 So some equipment like PFE or Santa Fe reefers, other cars carrying = lumber from the far West, and cars from lines that had a lot of tunnels, = should be expected to be sooty. Santa Fe equipment would get sooty from = the tunnel in Franklin Canyon and on Tehachapi. You would expect to see = a certain percentage of SP, GN, NP, and MILW cars very sooty. So I = think you would want to have some percentage of equipment very = dark-weathered, with some logic as to which. I have been shot down about this in the past, so beware. I've been noticing the colors of the interiors of hopper cars on videos. = They range from black to rusty to occasional shiny bare metal. I paint = the interiors of most of my hopper cars Floquil Rail Brown. More = recently I have hit the bottoms with random sprays of Floquil Rust, as = the videos seem to show the rust is newer and lighter at the bottom. = When the mood hits me I then make chalk dust in various rusty colors and = mix the chalk dust with brush loads of Rust of Rail Brown and generally = crud up the insides of the hoppers in a random pattern with this stuff. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C31FB2.ACEF27A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Elden has hit one of my hot-button items.  I am = still=20 digesting his presentation on modeling gons, so I am not going to say = anything=20 about gons.
 
However, a major factor in weathering all over the = US is=20 tunnels.   Equipment that went through northern and central = California=20 went through many tunnels that deposited soot on it, both in the steam = and=20 diesel eras.  The claim has been made that the soot was worse in = the diesel=20 era.   The same would apply to parts of the PRR, such as the = Middle=20 Division.  However, it's worth noting that the Baltimore and Hudson = River=20 tunnels, even without a lot of steam, seem to have made equipment=20 sooty.  There was nowhere else Congressional cars could = go to get=20 their roofs as dirty as they were.  (Note the instructions in = employee=20 timetables to avoid steam discharge from steam generators in the = Baltimore=20 tunnels -- would presumably bring down old soot). 
 
This also applies to lines like the Chicago Great = Western that=20 had only one tunnel.  Their cabooses got very sooty, though the = locos seem=20 to have been washed frequently.
 
So some equipment like PFE or Santa Fe reefers, = other cars=20 carrying lumber from the far West, and cars from lines that had a lot of = tunnels, should be expected to be sooty.  Santa Fe equipment = would get=20 sooty from the tunnel in Franklin Canyon and on Tehachapi.  You = would=20 expect to see a certain percentage of SP, GN, NP, and MILW cars very=20 sooty.  So I think you would want to have some percentage of = equipment very=20 dark-weathered, with some logic as to which.
 
I have been shot down about this in the past, so=20 beware.
 
I've been noticing the colors of the interiors of = hopper cars=20 on videos. They range from black to rusty to occasional shiny bare = metal. =20 I paint the interiors of most of my hopper cars Floquil Rail = Brown.  =20 More recently I have hit the bottoms with random sprays of Floquil Rust, = as the=20 videos seem to show the rust is newer and lighter at the bottom.  = When the=20 mood hits me I then make chalk dust in various rusty colors and mix the = chalk=20 dust with brush loads of Rust of Rail Brown and generally crud up the = insides of=20 the hoppers in a random pattern with this = stuff.
------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C31FB2.ACEF27A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:06:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona and 1361 --part1_15.11bfb4c8.2bfd6e8b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/21/2003 6:16:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, director@railroadcity.com writes: > You obviously spent no time in this museum or you would realize that nothing > contained in this building could possibly be interpreted and appreciated in > Scranton. It is all about the Altoona experience. > > Some have called us a "niche" museum. So what! I can live with that. We > are what we are and can offer no more. We are not a "PRR" museum, we are > not the "State" museum. We are THE railroaders museum - I said railroader > not railroad. You will not find this "personal" story in any other rail > museum in the country. > I have been to all the other museums under discussion, plus many others. The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg (not to be confused with the tourist train across the street) is great for rolling stock. The Altoona museum has some interesting rolling stock as well AND it is mainly about railroading and railroad towns as a way of life. Scott is right. It is unique and fascinating. I love railroads, but after visiting the Railroaders Museum, I am not sure I would have loved the way of life. There is a great deal to be said for a museum that makes on think! This is not to deny that central Pennsylvania is a bit off the beaten path. (I know. I live there.) The EBT and many other interesting sites in Central Pennsylvania suffer from the same challenge. The solution is creative marketing to maximize revenue, followed by careful management to live within one's income. No credible case has been presented in this thread to give up and/or move out. Lee Rainey Volunteer Coordinator, Friends of the East Broad Top Railroad "The Standard NARROW GAUGE Railroad of the World" --part1_15.11bfb4c8.2bfd6e8b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/21/2003 6:16:41 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, director@railroadcity.com writes:


You obviously spent no time in=20= this museum or you would realize that nothing contained in this building cou= ld possibly be interpreted and appreciated in Scranton.  It is all abou= t the Altoona experience.
Some have called us a "niche= " museum.  So what! I can live with that.  We are what we are and=20= can offer no more.  We are not a "PRR" museum, we are not the "State" m= useum.  We are THE railroaders museum - I said railroader not railroad.=   You will not find this "personal" story in any other rail museum in t= he country.


I have been to all the other museums under discussion, plus many others. The= Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg (not to be confused with the t= ourist train across the street) is great for rolling stock. The Altoona muse= um has some interesting rolling stock as well AND it is mainly about railroa= ding and railroad towns as a way of life.  Scott is right. It is unique= and fascinating. I love railroads, but after visiting the Railroaders Museu= m, I am not sure I would have loved the way of life. There is a great deal t= o be said for a museum that makes on think!

This is not to deny that central Pennsylvania is a bit off the beaten path.=20= (I know. I live there.) The EBT and many other interesting sites in Central=20= Pennsylvania suffer from the same challenge. The solution is creative market= ing to maximize revenue, followed by careful management to live within one's= income. No credible case has been presented in this thread to give up and/o= r move out.

Lee Rainey
Volunteer Coordinator, Friends of the East Broad Top Railroad
"The Standard NARROW GAUGE Railroad of the World" --part1_15.11bfb4c8.2bfd6e8b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:13:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona and 1361 From: Jerry Britton On 5/21/03 6:00 PM, "Scott Cessna" wrote: > OK everyone, since this seems to come to a boil about once every six months or > so, First, I want to thank Mr. Cessna for responding on-list. I don't think anyone regrets expressing their "opinions" now that they know a representative of the museum is online. But I think we all APPRECIATE that the museum is paying attention to this list as it is a dominant source of information on the topic of the museum itself! I also commend Mr. Cessna for making a very professional post. A predecessor failed to do so. Second, there are a lot of sites around Altoona. Tour deToona? Okay, that's a new one! Third, I want to clear the air on my post about the museum not having a quarter roundhouse "as advertised". I think/hope most know what I was referring to. No, it's not advertising materials from the museum. Rather, many months ago Andy M., an "authority" from the museum, posted on list that a "quarter roundhouse" was under construction. Great! But then a single-stall roundhouse shows up. My point was that the musuem's idea of a quarter roundhouse and the public's idea of a single stall roundhouse differ. So you only built one stall initially. That's a valid explanation. But you certainly must be able to understand our conclusion, can't you? The Altoona Museum, from an interpretive standpoint, is first-rate. There is no argument there. (And I stated that just days ago.) Everyone should check it out if they haven't been there. But, Mr. Cessna, given the recent history of the museum, the closing of the Curve during winter months (I took a van load of people there in March to find the gates locked), etc., it would benefit both the museum and your potential client base (this list) if you would take the initiative and maybe make a post once a month or so to update everyone on the "goings on" at the Altoona Museum. In moments you will reach a pre-qualified audience of over 600 people! Again, thank you for speaking up! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:42:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Westerfield X-23's --part1_fb.3f538653.2bfd850d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw one of these kits the other day at my local dealer. Anyone have any feedback on these yet? Todd Horton --part1_fb.3f538653.2bfd850d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I saw one of these kits the other day at my local deal= er. Anyone have any feedback on these yet? Todd Horton --part1_fb.3f538653.2bfd850d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:02:00 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Westerfield X-23's I got one at the PRRT&HS meeting. It looks really nice. I just started building it and I'm having trouble interpreting some of the instructions, especially relative to the photos. I should have paid more attention to his built-up model at the convention. John Ryan CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > I saw one of these kits the other day at my local dealer. Anyone have > any feedback on these yet? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:37:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Another PRR Item --part1_167.209f2937.2bfd91f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Plastruct kit looks very much like the ones used on the trolley line out of Atlantic City, NJ. Believe the trolley line was controlled by the PRR. Will have to dig the Jersey and P-RSL books out this weekend to find the photos of these swing bridges. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_167.209f2937.2bfd91f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   The Plastruct kit looks very much like the ones= used on the trolley line out of Atlantic City, NJ.  Believe the trolle= y line was controlled by the PRR.  Will have to dig the Jersey and P-RS= L books out this weekend to find the photos of these swing bridges.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_167.209f2937.2bfd91f4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Westerfield X-23's Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:40:40 -0400 I picked up one at the PRRTHS convention and finished it up last week. I agree that there are one or two parts where the instructions could have been a little clearer. It me a while to figure out how the door tracks went but other than that it was pretty much smooth sailing... It usually takes me forever to finish up one of Al's kits but this one only took me a few nights to complete... The kit built up into a beautiful car. I definitely recommend getting one! Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Ryan Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:02 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Cc: CENTGA@aol.com; STMFC@egroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Westerfield X-23's I got one at the PRRT&HS meeting. It looks really nice. I just started building it and I'm having trouble interpreting some of the instructions, especially relative to the photos. I should have paid more attention to his built-up model at the convention. John Ryan CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > I saw one of these kits the other day at my local dealer. Anyone have > any feedback on these yet? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:42:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Western PA and PRR modeling --part1_1cb.a298b1d.2bfd92fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/21/2003 4:27:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > 2. In neighborhoods with the "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs > being either marble like or stone like in 8' or 10' lengths. Knowing the > economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have been marble. > This is commonly referred to as flagstone. Rather hard and rugged. In sheets about 2 inches thich it was used for sidewalks too. Rich O --part1_1cb.a298b1d.2bfd92fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 05/21/2003 4:27:56 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:


2.  In neighborhoods with=20= the "yellow" brick streets, I recall the curbs
being either  marble like or stone like in 8' or 10' lengths.  Kno= wing the
economy of the area, I seriously doubt it would have been marble.


This is commonly referred to as flagstone.  Rather hard and rugged.&nbs= p; In sheets about 2 inches thich it was used for sidewalks too.

Rich O --part1_1cb.a298b1d.2bfd92fa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Keith" Subject: [PRR] Did all PRR roundhouses have inspection pits? Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:58:01 -0700 What is the general rule of thumb for PRR roundhouses to have inspection pits on every track? I am especially interested in the roundhouse at East Altoona but I would also like to know about other roundhouses to the west as well. Is there an online source of accurate data? I would like to know so I can figure out if one roundhouse would be easier to model than others although I might have to do them all one day. Also, were there any outside inspection pits in Altoona that were not part of Altoona works? Thanks -- Doug _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:01:09 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR, EAGLE, TX SPECIAL cars From: Dominic Mazoch Ah, EAGLE cars for MP, T&P, and PRR, MKT and SL-SF cars for the TX SP, and the regular PRR passenger cars. Sounds like a very colorful train, even if one does not include the head end cars. I am planning to model it in 3R O-31 O guage, using Lionel and Williams cars. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:38:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 5/21/03 3:42:13 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Indeed, if you didn't know your history, you'd wonder why most surviving PRR main lines were built where they are. >> The change in demographics came home to me the other night. In S.Kip Farrington's Railroading from the Rear End, he describes the troop homeward movements on the SP in 1945 (500,000 troops/month, with a peak of 46 military trains on the line on December 1, 1945). 80% of those troops came from East of the Mississippi. I suspect a large chunk of that 80% were from Pennsy territory. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:39:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] research vs. RESEARCH My apologies for somehow deleting the subject on my last post. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:09:18 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Museums, etc. Frankly, the flood of messages on the general topic of museums, the general comparative merits of sundry locations, the politics, the travails; it's all very wearying. At least one legitimate Pennsy-knowledgable fan has said he may unsubscribe, if that is what dominates what should be a list about the PRR. Thanks to Scott Cessna for injecting some possibly unwelcome sanity and fact into what had become a dream-woven spiderweb of conjecture. Now -- if there isn't a "Museum Dreams and Operations" discussion group out there, it seems that there might be a market for one. But the question is whether PRR-Talk is the proper place for field-of-dreams blather. If the consensus is that PRR-Talk IS such a place, look for a realignment of some subscribers; those who value their time and don't wish to waste it on speculations about something that (a) does not really relate to the PRR (which ceased to exist in 1968, remember??), and (2) cannot be influenced by the discussion. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:43:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Museums, etc. From: Listmaster On 5/22/03 2:09 AM, "Peter Weiglin" wrote: > If the consensus is that PRR-Talk IS such a place, look for a realignment of > some subscribers; those who value their time and don't wish to waste it on > speculations about something that (a) does not really relate to the PRR (which > ceased to exist in 1968, remember??), and (2) cannot be influenced by the > discussion. > Hmmm. Let's see. The PRRT&HS has a huge archive at the Lewistown Station. But I guess we can't talk about that either, cause the PRR ceased to exist in 1968. How about Bennett Levin's restored PRR E8's? Oops, there's that 1968 thing again! Sorry, Peter, but if it relates to the PRR through survivorship, it's legit. The bulk of the museum thread was on 1361, the PRR's only surviving K4 with chances of having her firebox relighted. I'd hate to think that such a PRR-knowledgeable person like you would leave over a short-lived discussion, but the topic is still in "fair game" territory. Please be patient. The conversation about features of Western PA may not be, but it's amazing how many people are coming out of the woodwork and saying how much they are enjoying that thread, so it too continues, for now. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:57:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Museums, etc. Just wanted to say that I visited the Railroaders Museum last fall while following the line from Harrisburg to Johnstown, and thought it was an excellent exhibition; nobody visiting the area should miss it, IMHO. Its focus on the railroaders themselves, rather than the railroad per se, may not be what most Pennsy fans would prefer, but it is fascinating in its own right, and likely should attract a broader community of visitors; after all, more people are probably interested in "people" than are interested in "railroads." It's difficult to run any kind of attraction in this depressed economy, let alone a cultural one; travel and visits are down, philanthropy is drying up, government aid is vanishing. Clearly they face difficult times; I would not try to second-guess how they manage their program, unless perhaps I had a background in managing nonprofit institutions. As for 1361, if they get it into running condition, it will be a magnificent contribution to the conservation of the PRR; as to where to run it, well, there is almost no opportunity to run steam on main lines anywhere in the eastern US right now, and very little in the West either. In the future, who can tell what will happen? By the time the restoration is finished, NS may well be part of UP or BNSF, and the whole situation may have changed. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Westerfield X-23's Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:27:50 -0500 Despite statements to the contrary, I have always found Westerfield's instructions a challenge in interpretation. -----Original Message----- From: John Ryan [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:02 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Cc: CENTGA@aol.com; STMFC@egroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Westerfield X-23's I got one at the PRRT&HS meeting. It looks really nice. I just started building it and I'm having trouble interpreting some of the instructions, especially relative to the photos. I should have paid more attention to his built-up model at the convention. John Ryan CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > I saw one of these kits the other day at my local dealer. Anyone have > any feedback on these yet? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Museums, etc. Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:33:27 -0700 Don't hold your breath... Union Pacific does not allow ANY steam operations on their lines using locomotives that are not owned by the UP. > In the future, who can tell what will > happen? By > the time the restoration is finished, NS may well be part > of UP or > BNSF, and the whole situation may have changed. > Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Museums, etc. Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:57:43 +0000 Well it wouldn't be all bad to see the challenger strutting it's stuff on Horseshoe curve. I bet you would hear it leave Altoona! > Don't hold your breath... Union Pacific does not allow ANY > steam operations on their lines using locomotives that are > not owned by the UP. > > In the future, who can tell what will > > happen? By > > the time the restoration is finished, NS may well be part > > of UP or > > BNSF, and the whole situation may have changed. > > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Cessna" Subject: [PRR] Altoona and A Few Loose Ends Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:07:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0137_01C3204A.05264A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First, thanks to everyone who responded to me in an encouraging fashion = in response to my earlier post. Let me take care of a few loose ends. = Concerning keeping everyone up to date on the happenings here in Altoona = - we will try to do that on our web site and our renewed newsletter = mailings. For those who arrived at the Curve to find it closed this = winter - that is not a new occurrence. The Curve was always closed over = the winter due to weather and our inability to keep the steps free of = ice and snow and thereby avoid being sued for slips and falls. = (unofficially - all you had to do was walk AROUND the fence) For those = of you that don't know, the Curve is open (194 steps to the top) FREE of = charge during non-operating hours. Regarding the roundhouse, Dr. Mulhollen, Board President, did post the = fact we were building a quarter roundhouse and we are. If you made the = assumption that what is in the yard right now is all there was going to = be you didn't pay attention to the site plan posted in a display case on = the fence. A contract should be awarded by the fall with steel going up = in the spring. Our turntable issue appears to be solved with the = acquisition of the old LN&E table in Penn Argyle - details are being = worked out with the owner. Thanks =20 Scott Cessna Director of Operations Railroaders Heritage Corporation 814-946-0834 ext 224 Fax 814-946-9457 ------=_NextPart_000_0137_01C3204A.05264A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First, thanks to=20 everyone who responded to me in an encouraging fashion in response to my = earlier=20 post.  Let me take care of a few loose ends.  Concerning = keeping=20 everyone up to date on the happenings here in Altoona - we will try to = do that=20 on our web site and our renewed newsletter mailings.  For those who = arrived=20 at the Curve to find it closed this winter - that is not a new = occurrence. =20 The Curve was always closed over the winter due to weather and our = inability to=20 keep the steps free of ice and snow and thereby avoid being sued for = slips and=20 falls.  (unofficially - all you had to do was walk AROUND the = fence) =20 For those of you that don't know, the Curve is open (194 steps to the = top) FREE=20 of charge during non-operating hours.
 
Regarding the roundhouse, Dr. = Mulhollen, Board=20 President, did post the fact we were building a quarter roundhouse and = we=20 are.  If you made the assumption that what is in the yard right now = is all=20 there was going to be you didn't pay attention to the site plan posted = in a=20 display case on the fence.  A contract should be awarded by the = fall with=20 steel going up in the spring.  Our turntable issue appears to = be=20 solved with the acquisition of the old LN&E table in Penn = Argyle -=20 details are being worked out with the owner.
 
Thanks
 
Scott Cessna
Director of=20 Operations
Railroaders Heritage Corporation
814-946-0834  ext = 224
Fax 814-946-9457
------=_NextPart_000_0137_01C3204A.05264A10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:16:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona and A Few Loose Ends From: Jerry Britton On 5/22/03 10:07 AM, Scott Cessna (director@railroadcity.com) wrote: > First, thanks to everyone who responded to me in an encouraging fashion in > response to my earlier post. Let me take care of a few loose ends. > Concerning keeping everyone up to date on the happenings here in Altoona - we > will try to do that on our web site and our renewed newsletter mailings. For > those who arrived at the Curve to find it closed this winter - that is not a > new occurrence. The Curve was always closed over the winter due to weather > and our inability to keep the steps free of ice and snow and thereby avoid > being sued for slips and falls. That I didn't know. This past March was, I guess, my first attempt to visit during the winter. > (unofficially - all you had to do was walk > AROUND the fence) For those of you that don't know, the Curve is open (194 > steps to the top) FREE of charge during non-operating hours. That is also news to me, but I guess we are hearing it from THE authoritative source. I always would have assumed, by default, that going around a locked gate would be tresspassing. Thanks for the clarification IN THIS INSTANCE. > > Regarding the roundhouse, Dr. Mulhollen, Board President, did post the fact we > were building a quarter roundhouse and we are. If you made the assumption > that what is in the yard right now is all there was going to be you didn't pay > attention to the site plan posted in a display case on the fence. A contract > should be awarded by the fall with steel going up in the spring. Our > turntable issue appears to be solved with the acquisition of the old LN&E > table in Penn Argyle - details are being worked out with the owner. > Unfortunately, the "site plan posted in a display case on the fence" wasn't included in Andy's post. He announced the construction and the single stall showed up. Easy to draw conclusions online. Thanks for this clarification as well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: PRR Conductor Recording Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:40:08 -0400 Hi all, Got this query via my website. Can anyone help Chuck out? Thanks, Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Theresa Dale [mailto:tkdale@attbi.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:03 AM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: PRR Condctor Recording Hi Rob, I'm looking for any help or info you or anyone in your group. I'm trying to locate a copy even if it is just a cassette copy of a 78rpm record that was sold in the early to mid 50's of a conductor making his boarding call from Pittsburgh for like Greensburg, Altoona and points East. I think it may have been on a Blue Bird record label, but that's a maybe. The one I had came from the 5&10 or Faravos in Elizabeth, Pa. around 53 or 55. At some point in time when I was in the service it was broken and discarded. I still play with trains and run PRR steamers. If anyone has any info I would really appreciate it. Have a Good Day, Chuck Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: PRR Conductor Recording Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:24:22 +0000 I can help as I have the records. They came with a scale tender with a speaker that ran behind my Lionel #2025 2-6-2 engine. The tender had sprung trucks and was close to scale as I remember. The recordings were made in Pittsburgh, New York or Chicago but I want to think Pittsburgh as I believe Bill Rau was involved in it (speculation). They consist of the station announcer giving the train # and name followed by the stops. I dont think they give a track number but it has been years since I played them. This is followed by two whistle blasts and the engine accelerating out of the station and running at speed for 30 seconds or so. The process was written up in Trains magazine in the late 40's. There was a picture of the engine used which I want to remember as a K4. I have no idea how the sound was superimposed over the AC on Lionel track as I was a kid at the time. The big problem is they are 78's so you need a turntable with 78rpm on it. I have kept an old Garrard turntable just for that reason. There are three or four records with a different train on each side but they all utilize the same engine sounds. Each side lasts a litle more than a minute. I last used them to confirm the whistle setting for a K4 on my PFM sound system years ago. Norm Bell > Hi all, > > Got this query via my website. Can anyone help Chuck out? > Thanks, > Rob > http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Theresa Dale [mailto:tkdale@attbi.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:03 AM > To: robs@railfan.net > Subject: PRR Condctor Recording > > > Hi Rob, > > I'm looking for any help or info you or anyone in your group. I'm trying to > locate a copy even if it is just a cassette copy of a 78rpm record that was > sold in the early to mid 50's of a conductor making his boarding call from > Pittsburgh for like Greensburg, Altoona and points East. I think it may > have been on a Blue Bird record label, but that's a maybe. > > The one I had came from the 5&10 or Faravos in Elizabeth, Pa. around 53 or > 55. At some point in time when I was in the service it was broken and > discarded. I still play with trains and run PRR steamers. > > If anyone has any info I would really appreciate it. > > Have a Good Day, > Chuck Dale > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Thanks for your response Re: [PRR] Altoona and 1361 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:29:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C32066.3DDCCF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for taking the time to respond to the group. Although we all = have our own thoughts on 1361, yours obviously matter a little more. I'm = happy to know you are at least willing to read all our diverse opinions = and thoughts. It may not make a difference in your decisions, but open = debate is one of things that makes this country great, and I'm glad = someone who cares enough about the PRR fan community to be reading our = list is at the helm. Thanks again, and I hope you let us know when 1361 = is ready for her first fireup, whenever that may be, so we can all camp = out in Scranton (make sure you ask us for donations, we'll be the = obsessed looking one's with the cameras! :) ) =20 Tom von Trott ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Scott Cessna=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 6:00 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona and 1361 OK everyone, since this seems to come to a boil about once every six = months or so, I will regrettably respond to all the recent posts about = the state of affairs here in Altoona and #1361. First of all, while I = am not naive enough to believe we are the northeast's answer to Disney, = Altoona is not as "far off the beaten path" as you all seem to believe. = The museum sits blocks off of Interstate 99 and is only 30 minutes from = the PA Turnpike. Over 106,000 football fans seems to find us on every = home Penn State football weekend! We are the home (Blair County = Ballpark) of the Altoona Curve baseball team, the AA Affiliate of the = Pittsburgh Pirates and the team has set attendance records each of the 4 = previous seasons they have been here. We have as much to offer the = outdoor recreation enthusiast as the rest of the state -- with Prince = Gallitzin State Park and Raystown Lake for the boating and camping = enthusiast to Blue Knob Ski Resort (highest skiable mountain in PA) for = the winter sports lover. We host the Tour DeToona Bike race each summer = - one of the premier cycling events in the country. We have golf = courses galore and have not only our railroaders museum attractions but = the Gallitzin Tunnels and the Allegheny Portage Railroad. We are a = stone's throw from the EBT as well. Second, I take a offense to the comment that we are "asleep" here as = it relates to museum operation. I have been the director here since = November and can assure you I have gotten very little sleep since then. = We are working hard to make this the best operation of its kind. To the = gentleman who made rather disparaging remarks about us and said the = entire museum in Altoona should be "packed up and sent to Steamtown", I = can only offer this -- you must be kidding me!! You obviously spent no = time in this museum or you would realize that nothing contained in this = building could possibly be interpreted and appreciated in Scranton. It = is all about the Altoona experience. Some have called us a "niche" museum. So what! I can live with that. = We are what we are and can offer no more. We are not a "PRR" museum, we = are not the "State" museum. We are THE railroaders museum - I said = railroader not railroad. You will not find this "personal" story in any = other rail museum in the country. It is a story of how this city came = to be what it came to be. We claim to be no more and no less. I have = every confidence we can succeed on this presentation - "off the beaten = path" as we are. Get a current map in your hands and see how easy it is = to get here. Visit the web sites at Westsylvania.org and = Alleghenymountains.org and see what we have to offer. OK - the K4. Let's end this right here and now. It is OUR = locomotive. While I can appreciate everyone on this list wanting to = write us off and give it away, none of you have the authority to do = that. The money, know-how and personnel are in place to finish the = restoration and return her to operating condition and that is what we = are going to do. If ANY of you had been handed the money and were told = to restore that locomotive that is exactly what you would have done - so = that is what we are doing. Some of you said the money could have been = better used to right the wrongs here at the museum. Sorry - it doesn't = work that way. This is a "color of money" issue. Capital funds are = capital funds and CANNOT be used to pay operating expenses. Case = closed. Some of you poor-mouthed our roundhouse saying it wasn't a = quarter roundhouse "as advertised". Nobody here is advertising a = quarter roundhouse. We are advertising the fact that one is going to be = built and the money is in place to accomplish that and the drawings are = being finished as I write this email. If you want to see yard plans, = stop by my office and I will gladly show them to you. Might we run the locomotive elsewhere - yes. Will it "live" here in = Altoona - most certainly YES. Is insurance a concern - definitely. = Guess what - it is a concern in Scranton and Strasburg too! Do you all = think that those 2 operations are immune from the high cost of a steam = program? I would argue with those of you that said the short lines here = in the area are "too far away" or not suitable for operation of #1361. = On those short lines is exactly where we plan to run her. Anyone who = has seen the video of the inaugural run from Tyrone in the 80's can tell = you what a nice ride it is. We also have the option of the RJ Corman in = Clearfield County. This is not going to be a locomotive that is run on = a daily basis - that just isn't feasible. So in closing, the debate can = cease right now. It is coming back to Altoona to stay and we will = venture out with it as we see fit. If that doesn't meet your = expectations, I'm sorry but that is how it is going to be. If you would = like to continue debating a subject you have no authoritative stake in, = feel free to continue. However, make sure you have done your homework = before lending your expertise on either the condition of our facility or = the state of our wonderful central Pennsylvania community. Scott Cessna Director Railroaders Memorial Museum 814-946-0834 ext 224 Fax 814-946-9457 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C32066.3DDCCF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for taking the time to respond = to the=20 group.  Although we all have our own thoughts on 1361, yours = obviously=20 matter a little more. I'm happy to know you are at least willing to read = all our=20 diverse opinions and thoughts.  It may not make a difference in = your=20 decisions, but open debate is one of things that makes this country = great, and=20 I'm glad someone who cares enough about the PRR fan community to be = reading our=20 list is at the helm.  Thanks again, and I hope you let us know when = 1361 is=20 ready for her first fireup, whenever that may be, so we can all camp out = in=20 Scranton (make sure you ask us for donations, we'll be the obsessed = looking=20 one's with the cameras! :) ) 
 
Tom von Trott
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Scott Cessna
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 6:00=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Altoona and = 1361

OK everyone, since this seems to come = to a boil=20 about once every six months or so, I will regrettably respond to all = the=20 recent posts about the state of affairs here in Altoona and = #1361.  First=20 of all, while I am not naive enough to believe we are the northeast's = answer=20 to Disney, Altoona is not as "far off the beaten path" as you all seem = to=20 believe.  The museum sits blocks off of Interstate 99 and is only = 30=20 minutes from the PA Turnpike.  Over 106,000 football fans = seems to=20 find us on every home Penn State football weekend!  We are the = home=20 (Blair County Ballpark) of the Altoona Curve baseball team, the AA = Affiliate=20 of the Pittsburgh Pirates and the team has set attendance records each = of=20 the 4 previous seasons they have been here.  We have as much = to=20 offer the outdoor recreation enthusiast as the rest of the state -- = with=20 Prince Gallitzin State Park and Raystown Lake for the boating and = camping=20 enthusiast to Blue Knob Ski Resort (highest skiable mountain in PA) = for the=20 winter sports lover.  We host the Tour DeToona Bike race each = summer -=20 one of the premier cycling events in the country.  We have golf = courses=20 galore and have not only our railroaders museum attractions but the = Gallitzin=20 Tunnels and the Allegheny Portage Railroad.  We are a = stone's throw=20 from the EBT as well.
 
Second,  I take a offense to the = comment=20 that we are "asleep" here as it relates to museum operation.  I = have been=20 the director here since November and can assure you I have gotten very = little=20 sleep since then.  We are working hard to make this the best = operation of=20 its kind.  To the gentleman who made rather disparaging remarks = about us=20 and said the entire museum in Altoona should be "packed up and sent to = Steamtown", I can only offer this -- you must be kidding me!!  = You=20 obviously spent no time in this museum or you would realize that = nothing=20 contained in this building could possibly be interpreted and = appreciated in=20 Scranton.  It is all about the Altoona experience.
 
Some have called us a "niche" = museum.  So=20 what! I can live with that.  We are what we are and can offer no=20 more.  We are not a "PRR" museum, we are not the "State" = museum.  We=20 are THE railroaders museum - I said railroader not = railroad. =20 You will not find this "personal" story in any other rail museum = in the=20 country.  It is a story of how this city came to be = what it=20 came to be.  We claim to be no more and no less.  I have = every=20 confidence we can succeed on this presentation - "off the beaten path" = as we=20 are.  Get a current map in your hands and see how easy it is to = get=20 here.  Visit the web sites at Westsylvania.org and = Alleghenymountains.org=20 and see what we have to offer.
 
OK - the K4.  Let's end = this right here=20 and now.  It is OUR locomotive.  While I can appreciate = everyone on=20 this list wanting to write us off and give it away, none of you = have the=20 authority to do that.  The money, know-how and personnel are in = place to=20 finish the restoration and return her to operating condition and that = is what=20 we are going to do.  If ANY of you had been handed the money and = were=20 told to restore that locomotive that is exactly what you would have = done - so=20 that is what we are doing.  Some of you said the money could have = been=20 better used to right the wrongs here at the museum.  Sorry - it = doesn't=20 work that way.  This is a "color of money" issue.  Capital = funds are=20 capital funds and CANNOT be used to pay operating expenses.  Case = closed.  Some of you poor-mouthed our roundhouse saying it wasn't = a=20 quarter roundhouse "as advertised".  Nobody here is advertising a = quarter=20 roundhouse.  We are advertising the fact that one is going to be = built=20 and the money is in place to accomplish that and the drawings are = being=20 finished as I write this email.  If you want to see = yard plans, stop=20 by my office and I will gladly show them to you.
 
Might we run the locomotive elsewhere = -=20 yes.  Will it "live" here in Altoona - most certainly YES.  = Is=20 insurance a concern - definitely.  Guess what - it is a concern = in=20 Scranton and Strasburg too!  Do you all think that those 2 = operations are=20 immune from the high cost of a steam program?  I would argue with = those=20 of you that said the short lines here in the area are "too far away" = or not=20 suitable for operation of #1361.  On those short lines is exactly = where=20 we plan to run her.  Anyone who has seen the video of the = inaugural run=20 from Tyrone in the 80's can tell you what a nice ride it is.  We = also=20 have the option of the RJ Corman in Clearfield County.  This is = not going=20 to be a locomotive that is run on a daily basis - that just isn't=20 feasible.  So in closing, the debate can cease right now.  = It is=20 coming back to Altoona to stay and we will venture out with it as we = see=20 fit.  If that doesn't meet your expectations, I'm sorry but that = is how=20 it is going to be.  If you would like to continue debating a = subject you=20 have no authoritative stake in, feel free to continue.  However, = make=20 sure you have done your homework before lending your expertise on = either the=20 condition of our facility or the state of our wonderful central = Pennsylvania=20 community.
 
Scott = Cessna
Director
Railroaders Memorial=20 Museum
814-946-0834  ext 224
Fax=20 814-946-9457
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C32066.3DDCCF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: FRA Flue time, Re: [PRR] #1361 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:46:28 -0400 Under the old regs that dated back to the days of regular steam operations it was 5 years. With the revised FRA regulations put into effect after the Gettysburg explosion flue time is now 15 years, or 5 years of total operating days, whichever comes first. This time begins after the first fireup. If I'm not mistaken you can put them in the boiler for as long as you want beforehand, until you put pressure on the boiler, then the clock starts ticking This is also the interval for the FRA required full tear down and inspection of the boiler. Under the old regs Flue time was 5 years, but extensions used to be available. Meaning if at the time of tear down the flues where removed, inspected, and found to be in good shape, they could be safe ended and returned to the boiler if the FRA granted the extension. I believe though this got to be rare towards the end of the old regs, and I'm pretty sure that extensions are no longer available under the new regs. Tom von Trott ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] #1361 > Yes, we've discussed the PA museum issue in the past, but this thread got > started relative to 1361 and its future when/if its rebuild is ever > completed. This becomes a very important topic as completion of the rebuild > nears, as its FRA flue time is only for a finite number of years (5 I > think?), especially once it's been fired up, whether it's subsequently run > or not. It would sure be a shame to have it sit around waiting for a place > to run while the flue time clock runs out and wind up back needing another > rebuild. > > The mysteries of museums and steam operation attendance seem to depend on an > awful lot of factors, not all of them obvious like population and > accessibility. There are some very remote and obscure railroad museums that > run live steam and seem to survive. On the other hand, Ross Rowland didn't > seem to be able to make ends meet on his superb fall excursions with C&O 614 > on Metro North from Hoboken to Port Jervis, in one of the most highly > populated and most accessible areas of the country, and finally had to sell > the locomotive at auction. It's now in storage. > > The frustratring problem with Altoona is that it has so much to offer with > respect to railroading, railroad history, and the current museum. A few > days in the Altoona area will provide some of the best mainline railroad > operation to be found anywhere with dozens of superb viewing locations. > There is already a superb museum in place. Even the remaining shops and > yards, while only a shell of what was once there, are still pretty awesome > and can provide some pretty interesting viewing and photography. There are > at least some other attractions. Altoona does have a baseball team. The > mountains and surrounding countryside are awesome for outdoor recreation. > They have (or at least recently had) a nationally ranked bicycle race > weekend each August. I've seen locations with less to offer and with more > remote locations somehow pull in the tourists. It seems to me that with the > right creative thinking Altoona can do it. > > But we still need a place to run 1361, preferably Altoona, and preferably a > place that would give her an opportunity to stretch her legs and do what she > did best. The Bald Eagle Branch is a little too far away. The > Hollidaysburg Branch wouldn't permit any sort of speed, and I think it's > part of NS. But hey, there has to be a solution, and there has to be money > around somewhere - how do we find the creative solutions and get enough > money channeled in the right direction? > > Perhaps we shouldn't be in such a hurry to get 1361's rebuild completed - we > need to get the "where to run her" question answered before the flue time > clock starts. > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:33:59 +0000 If any of you could get the chance to check www.trains.com today there is a picture on the opneing page of a new Kibri tower that without the walkway looks like it could be bashable into a PRR tower. Am I in left field on this or does anyone think this might work? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Operations and Prototype Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:03:46 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32062.94B6D600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable William Neale writes, "I prefer to model a prototype myself, for all the reasons that Tony Koester has articulated so very well when he "saw the light" and moved = to the NKP. . . . Railroads like Darnaby's Maumee (Wabash in disguise) are = based on the single track, dark territory, low volume operations. Time Tables and = Train Orders are the rule. These are railroads that could not afford to = build to the standards of the PRR. Most of the PRR mainlines were double track, = with signals and towers, so the whole operating scheme is very different. = That leaves the PRR secondary branches. These parts of the railroad did not = get the overhead through traffic that is a key part of the TT&TO operating challenge. If you are a third class freight on the Maumee, you need to = know when the first and second class trains are due so you can get off the mainline. If you are a local on a PRR branch, there is not much to = dodge." I agree with William (Bill's?) later conclusion that there must be some = other set of options. One concern I have about the state of the hobby = is that everyone seems to feel the need to do things the way a very = small number of people say they should be done (key offenders are in the = quote above). However, my own experience is that it is difficult, even in a large = metropolitan area, to get an operating group of a dozen or more who = share an interest in operation on a layout that isn't established. And = as a recent column in RMC said, if you did, would you really want to? = Groups that size have politics to deal with, and you run the risk of = letting the other guys tell you how to build your layout. Some = modelers are risk-averse and don't want to get involved with a project = that hasn't been published. Past a certain point, one option is to let = those guys live their lives and go ahead and live yours. If you decide you don't need to build your layout the way one guy in a = magazine tells you to, you have many more options, which would include = sequence-style operation on a smaller prototype; freelance or = semi-freelance prototype; or other ideas. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32062.94B6D600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
William Neale writes,
 
"I prefer to model a prototype myself, for all the = reasons=20 that Tony
Koester has articulated so very well when he "saw the = light" and=20 moved to
the NKP. . . . Railroads like Darnaby's Maumee (Wabash in = disguise)=20 are based on the
single track, dark territory, low volume = operations. =20 Time Tables and Train
Orders are the rule.   These are = railroads=20 that could not afford to build to
the standards of the PRR.  = Most of the=20 PRR mainlines were double track, with
signals and towers, so the = whole=20 operating scheme is very different.  That
leaves the PRR = secondary=20 branches.   These parts of the railroad did not get
the = overhead=20 through traffic that is a key part of the TT&TO=20 operating
challenge.  If you are a third class freight on the = Maumee,=20 you need to know
when the first and second class trains are due so = you can=20 get off the
mainline.  If you are a local on a PRR branch, there = is not=20 much to dodge."
 
I agree with William (Bill's?) later conclusion that = there=20 must be some other set of options.  One concern I have about the = state of=20 the hobby is that everyone seems to feel the need to do things the way a = very=20 small number of people say they should be done (key offenders are in the = quote=20 above).
 
However, my own experience is that it is difficult, = even in a=20 large metropolitan area, to get an operating group of a dozen or more = who share=20 an interest in operation on a layout that isn't established.  And = as a=20 recent column in RMC said, if you did, would you really want to?  = Groups=20 that size have politics to deal with, and you run the risk of letting = the other=20 guys tell  you how to build your layout.   Some modelers = are=20 risk-averse and don't want to get involved with a project that hasn't = been=20 published.  Past a certain point, one option is to let those guys = live=20 their lives and go ahead and live yours.
 
If you decide you don't need to build your layout = the way one=20 guy in a magazine tells you to, you have many more options, which would = include=20 sequence-style operation on a smaller prototype; freelance or = semi-freelance=20 prototype; or other ideas.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32062.94B6D600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:20:44 +0000 I think that it has potential to be "Americanized". I think that with some work, it may be able to have a PRR look. The roof and the roof overhang is too big, IMHO. On the other hand, the two towers that Walthers produced recently (one in kit form only and one in built up only) are very close to generic PRR towers. Ted Andrews >From: ndbprr@att.net >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) >Subject: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:33:59 +0000 > >If any of you could get the chance to check www.trains.com today there is a >picture on the opneing page of a new Kibri tower that without the walkway >looks >like it could be bashable into a PRR tower. Am I in left field on this or >does >anyone think this might work? Thanks > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:21:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas --0-497478435-1053634887=:38478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry & list members What year did the Penn-Texas start running as a train by that name? Weren't through sleeping cars run New York to Texas destinations via the PRR to St. Louis then the MP and MKT prior to their being a "Penn-Texas" by name? Also, was there not at one time a through car New York--Mexico City also routed the same way? Anybody have any details on this service? Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-497478435-1053634887=:38478 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Jerry & list members
 
What year did the Penn-Texas start running as a train by that name?  Weren't through sleeping cars run New York to Texas destinations via the PRR to St. Louis then the MP and MKT prior to their being a "Penn-Texas" by name?  Also, was there not at one time a through car New York--Mexico City also routed the same way?  Anybody have any details on this service?
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-497478435-1053634887=:38478-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:00:17 -0700 Along those lines, I bought the Walthers tower kit and just recently began to paint it. I decided to use the PRR Standard Light and PRR Standard Dark recommendations from Jerry's website when I realized I did not know which to use where. I dug out two pictures (J tower at Strasburg and one from the Ball book) and in both, there seems to be a third color. The window sashes seem to be a shade of red. Any input? Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:21 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? On the other hand, the two towers that Walthers produced recently (one in kit form only and one in built up only) are very close to generic PRR towers. Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:05:35 -0400 Sorry folks, I just got a blivet of about 10 PRR-talk digests around 1pm today. Rick Tipton wrote; I would like to ask our listers some questions about operation: RT: 1. Do you think there's anything about Pennsy modeling that makes operating the layout more (or less) likely that for other prototypes? In other words, does modeling the Pennsy give us a familiarity with the equipment, signaling practices, routes, etc. that makes it more likely a Pennsy layout will be operated by a group of Pennsy fans? One possible answer -- maybe operating cars and engines carrying the classes and road numbers of real equipment reinforces our enjoyment of the models. DD: The short answer: No. I think a lot of this comes down to the "taste" of the layout's owner and their self-discipline. Personally, I find operating a layout scenicked and populated with a railroad's equipment appropriate for the era far more statisfying than operating a layout with steam running side by side with SD60's, pulling truss rod box cars and hycubes in the same train. However, whenever I encounter a layout where such a situation exists, I can only say "it's your layout, buddy, enjoy yourself!" RT: 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via Pennsy email lists... DD: I haven't seen any correlation. I've seen some REALLY BAD Pennsy layouts, and superlative freelanced ones. Again, it comes down to the individual, and how talented they are in taking prototype information and transferring it into their modeling and operation. I WILL say that PRR modelers certainly have an advantage over modelers of, say, the Yazoo and Mississippi Valley, in terms of the amount of material available from which to gather operational details, photos of facilities or equipment for modeling, etc. Jerry's Keystone Crossings and Rob Schoenburg's web site are fantastic resources, to name a couple. This particular chat list is also a shining example of the great knowledge resource that exists in the heads of a variety of PRR fans and modelers. In this case, the bigger and better-known the railroad, the more "knowledge resources" are available to post. 3. Do PRR layouts with successful operations have to be built around 5-star mainline locations like Horseshoe Curve, Rockville Bridge, Zoo Tower, or Newark Penn Station? Or can they be rural, rambling branchlines and still appeal to other Pennsy fans? DD: Bruce Smith already gave an excellent response to this one. Pennsy modelers have an advantage in that what they choose to model can range from mixed-train-daily kinds of branches to America's biggest railroad operations. John Armstrong once said that the number of trains passing a given point on a typical model layout on a given operating night might justify a 4-track mainline, but this was back in the 50's when round and round operation was more common. To keep such a physical plant populated with enough trains to justify it requires a lot of men, both on the prototype and the model -- or a computer, and I didn't get into this hobby to be a computer programmer, thanks. Attempting to model such large installations as Rick mentions above seems a more appropriate task for a club, both in manpower and finances. 4. Can the "Bill Darnaby and Tony Koester" paradigm of midwestern railroading translate into a layout with interest to Pennsy fans? So much of PRR Lines West was essentially "grangers with keystones". DD: Sure, why not, if that type of railroading just shouts "Pennsy!" to you? Keep in mind that to do what those two have as goals (replication of Wabash/NKP style "high speed service" TT&TO operation), they have gone all-out for extremely long main lines filling most of their basements, to enable enough running time between stations for a freight to get up to track speed from a standing start and to cruise along for a while. Darnaby's Maumee must be really sweet to operate, I've lost track of what Tony the K has been doing. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:13:12 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Operations and Prototype --------------000603090106050500030408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John wrote: > However, my own experience is that it is difficult, even in a large > metropolitan area, to get an operating group of a dozen or more who > share an interest in operation on a layout that isn't established. > And as a recent column in RMC said, if you did, would you really want > to? Groups that size have politics to deal with, and you run the risk > of letting the other guys tell you how to build your layout. Some > modelers are risk-averse and don't want to get involved with a project > that hasn't been published. Past a certain point, one option is to > let those guys live their lives and go ahead and live yours. I'm not sure that Harrisburg is a "large metropolitan area", but we do have a local group of roughly a dozen who share that interest. We rotate operating between different layouts in the area who all use a similar style. None of these layouts are complete (some are not close to complete for that matter), but the majority are operable (even if the station looks remarkable like an index card). The local group is often "augmented" from further away to operate, but we give the local guys first choice of jobs. There is an open invitation at most of them for people to come and help build them also. A group of about 6 regularly do so (as schedule permits). All of us have an understanding that the owner of the layout does have final say, but that there is no such thing as a "bad idea"... Usually, we laugh at the idea, tell the guy who suggested it how terrible it is, then go ahead and do it because it was really a good idea. Other times, we explain to the person why that idea won't work with what we really want to do... No one seems to get offended by this (every one keeps coming back). This group does have people who are more and less proto-type based (I myself fall into the "semi-prototypical" group). We have been together for over 2 years now in one form or another and politics have not (yet) appeared. Perhaps we're lucky, but it is working here. > If you decide you don't need to build your layout the way one guy in a > magazine tells you to, you have many more options, which would include > sequence-style operation on a smaller prototype; freelance or > semi-freelance prototype; or other ideas. One thing I personally feel that "100% proto-type modelers" forget is that there was a reason the prototype railroad did things the way they did -- because they experimented over the years and found what worked for them. As was discusses earlier on the list, different yards might class cars in different ways (smaller or larger cuts for example). Why? Because that's what worked best for that yard. Unless you are modeling a true scale version of the prototype with correct milages, correct number of yard tracks (I've yet to see/hear of a full size model of Enola), a slightly different approach may be better for the model... So, basically, I'm agreeing with what John said in that you should keep your options open. It will make it more enjoyable for all involved (except the most prototypical -- and they can go run their own trains...) Jeff Warner --------------000603090106050500030408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John wrote:

However, my own experience is that it is difficult, even in a large metropolitan area, to get an operating group of a dozen or more who share an interest in operation on a layout that isn't established.  And as a recent column in RMC said, if you did, would you really want to?  Groups that size have politics to deal with, and you run the risk of letting the other guys tell  you how to build your layout.   Some modelers are risk-averse and don't want to get involved with a project that hasn't been published.  Past a certain point, one option is to let those guys live their lives and go ahead and live yours.
I'm not sure that Harrisburg is a "large metropolitan area", but we do have a local group of roughly a dozen who share that interest.  We rotate operating between different layouts in the area who all use a similar style.  None of these layouts are complete (some are not close to complete for that matter), but the majority are operable (even if the station looks remarkable like an index card).  The local group is often "augmented" from further away to operate, but we give the local guys first choice of jobs.  There is an open invitation at most of them for people to come and help build them also.  A group of about 6 regularly do so (as schedule permits).  All of us have an understanding that the owner of the layout does have final say, but that there is no such thing as a "bad idea"...  Usually, we laugh at the idea, tell the guy who suggested it how terrible it is, then go ahead and do it because it was really a good idea.  Other times, we explain to the person why that idea won't work with what we really want to do...  No one seems to get offended by this (every one keeps coming back).  This group does have people who are more and less proto-type based (I myself fall into the "semi-prototypical" group).  We have been together for over 2 years now in one form or another and politics have not (yet) appeared.  Perhaps we're lucky, but it is working here.

If you decide you don't need to build your layout the way one guy in a magazine tells you to, you have many more options, which would include sequence-style operation on a smaller prototype; freelance or semi-freelance prototype; or other ideas.

One thing I personally feel that "100% proto-type modelers" forget is that there was a reason the prototype railroad did things the way they did -- because they experimented over the years and found what worked for them.  As was discusses earlier on the list, different yards might class cars in different ways (smaller or larger cuts for example).  Why?  Because that's what worked best for that yard.  Unless you are modeling a true scale version of the prototype with correct milages, correct number of yard tracks (I've yet to see/hear of a full size model of Enola), a slightly different approach may be better for the model...  

So, basically, I'm agreeing with what John said in that you should keep your options open.  It will make it more enjoyable for all involved (except the most prototypical -- and they can go run their own trains...)

Jeff Warner
--------------000603090106050500030408-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:18:14 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: PRR Conductor Recording If you are so inclined, you can connect that turntable to your PC and with MusicMatch software, or similar product, turn that recording on a 78 record into one or more mp3 or wav files. The sound file can reside on your hard drive or you can burn it to a CD....(or you can share copies of the file with other people!!) ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I can help as I have the records. They came with a scale tender with a speaker > that ran behind my Lionel #2025 2-6-2 engine. The tender had sprung trucks and > was close to scale as I remember. The recordings were made in Pittsburgh, New > York or Chicago but I want to think Pittsburgh as I believe Bill Rau was > involved in it (speculation). They consist of the station announcer giving the > train # and name followed by the stops. I dont think they give a track number > but it has been years since I played them. This is followed by two whistle > blasts and the engine accelerating out of the station and running at speed for > 30 seconds or so. The process was written up in Trains magazine in the late > 40's. There was a picture of the engine used which I want to remember as a > K4. I have no idea how the sound was superimposed over the AC on Lionel track > as I was a kid at the time. The big problem is they are 78's so you need a > turntable with 78rpm on it. I have kept an old Garrard turntable just for that > reason. There are three or four records with a different train on each side > but they all utilize the same engine sounds. Each side lasts a litle more than > a minute. I last used them to confirm the whistle setting for a K4 on my PFM > sound system years ago. Norm Bell > > Hi all, > > > > Got this query via my website. Can anyone help Chuck out? > > Thanks, > > Rob > > http://prr.railfan.net > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Theresa Dale [mailto:tkdale@attbi.com] > > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:03 AM > > To: robs@railfan.net > > Subject: PRR Condctor Recording > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > I'm looking for any help or info you or anyone in your group. I'm trying to > > locate a copy even if it is just a cassette copy of a 78rpm record that was > > sold in the early to mid 50's of a conductor making his boarding call from > > Pittsburgh for like Greensburg, Altoona and points East. I think it may > > have been on a Blue Bird record label, but that's a maybe. > > > > The one I had came from the 5&10 or Faravos in Elizabeth, Pa. around 53 or > > 55. At some point in time when I was in the service it was broken and > > discarded. I still play with trains and run PRR steamers. > > > > If anyone has any info I would really appreciate it. > > > > Have a Good Day, > > Chuck Dale > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:22:09 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts Doug: Regarding question 2 (below), I think there is one big advantaged to a prototype (or semi-prototype) based layout versus a freelanced that you didn't mention. Familarity with the general route can help with operations. If I'm operating a PRR layout with Horseshoe Curve, I know that if I'm headed toward it from Pittsburgh, I'm going East. From Enola, it's west. The same could be said about smaller layouts like mine which uses Enola and Baltimore at the two ends. 99% of the operators know that Baltimore is south of Enola. It gives a new operator a basis for direction and a way to generally orient himself you do not get when it is a true freelanced railroad between Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, and Adams... It makes the operator, especially new ones, feel more "comfortable" that he is in the right place and headed the right direction... It may also depend on what Rick meant by "promote operation"... Jef >RT: 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another well-known >prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and >equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other via >Pennsy email lists... > >DD: I haven't seen any correlation. I've seen some REALLY BAD Pennsy >layouts, and superlative freelanced ones. Again, it comes down to the >individual, and how talented they are in taking prototype information and >transferring it into their modeling and operation. I WILL say that PRR >modelers certainly have an advantage over modelers of, say, the Yazoo and >Mississippi Valley, in terms of the amount of material available from which >to gather operational details, photos of facilities or equipment for >modeling, etc. Jerry's Keystone Crossings and Rob Schoenburg's web site are >fantastic resources, to name a couple. This particular chat list is also a >shining example of the great knowledge resource that exists in the heads of >a variety of PRR fans and modelers. In this case, the bigger and >better-known the railroad, the more "knowledge resources" are available to >post. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:26:11 -0500 The color in slides and pictures are a function of the age and method upon which the photograph is developed. It is also a function of when the object in the picture itself was painted, or if the side of the object in which the picture appears is exposed to the sun more than the other sides. Unless the color is distinctly different, I would not worry about it. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Kane [mailto:Tom.Kane@hds.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:00 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Along those lines, I bought the Walthers tower kit and just recently began to paint it. I decided to use the PRR Standard Light and PRR Standard Dark recommendations from Jerry's website when I realized I did not know which to use where. I dug out two pictures (J tower at Strasburg and one from the Ball book) and in both, there seems to be a third color. The window sashes seem to be a shade of red. Any input? Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:21 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? On the other hand, the two towers that Walthers produced recently (one in kit form only and one in built up only) are very close to generic PRR towers. Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:36:09 +0000 It is a shade of marroon. I think Bob Zoeller (who is one this list) indicated that Wisconsin Central marroon is a close match. I have not used it yet, but I will. Ted Andrews >From: Tom Kane >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:00:17 -0700 > >Along those lines, I bought the Walthers tower kit and just recently began >to paint it. I decided to use the PRR Standard Light and PRR Standard Dark >recommendations from Jerry's website when I realized I did not know which >to >use where. > >I dug out two pictures (J tower at Strasburg and one from the Ball book) >and >in both, there seems to be a third color. The window sashes seem to be a >shade of red. > >Any input? > >Tom Kane > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] >Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:21 PM >To: ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? > > >On the other hand, the two towers that Walthers produced recently (one in >kit form only and one in built up only) are very close to generic PRR >towers. > >Ted Andrews > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:39:13 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Re: The window sashes seem to be a shade of red. Yes, the window sash was painted red. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Towers Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:46:50 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C32070.FA3E03A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To save anyone else the trouble of looking, the Walthers Cornerstone = tower kit is a Santa Fe prototype -- however, its details are generic = enough that it seems to be very close to Milwaukee Road, and one guy did = an article in RMC on converting it into a Reading tower. However, I = think you would have a bigger kitbash trying to get it closer to PRR. The Walthers Built-Ups tower is, I've been told, from the Soo Line. =20 Nobody will arrest you for painting either one in PRR colors, though the = Built-Up is sort of tough to break apart and turn into a kit (I've done = it but haven't finished painting it). ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C32070.FA3E03A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To save anyone else the trouble of looking, the = Walthers=20 Cornerstone tower kit is a Santa Fe prototype -- however, its details = are=20 generic enough that it seems to be very close to Milwaukee Road, and one = guy did=20 an article in RMC on converting it into a Reading tower.  However, = I think=20 you would have a bigger kitbash trying to get it closer to = PRR.
 
The Walthers Built-Ups tower is, I've been told, = from the Soo=20 Line. 
 
Nobody will arrest you for painting either one in = PRR colors,=20 though the Built-Up is sort of tough to break apart and turn into a kit = (I've=20 done it but haven't finished painting it).
------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C32070.FA3E03A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:52:56 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] The Penn Texas --------------030400030808070909040501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to Ron, Jerry and the List: Through PRR service to Texas and Mexico began on July 7, 1946, with much fanfare and the establishment of a through train named the Sunshine Special (which was the name of an existing MP train), which ran via PRR-St. Louis-MP-Dallas-T&P-Laredo-NdeM. It included: -- a sleeper-lounge NY-Dallas-Fort Worth -- coaches NY-DFW, NY-San Anton, Wash.-Houston -- sleepers NY-Houston, NY-San Anton., NY-El Paso, NY-Mexico City, Wash.-Dallas, and Wash.-Houston. -- diner NY-DFW It operated as Trains 3 and 4 on PRR and, as mentioned, assumed the existing name of the MP train. In April 1948, it ceased being a through train and the coaches, lounge and diner stopped running through to MP, but the sleepers continued to provide through service. Coach pasengers could still connect, but they had to change at St. Louis. On PRR, the train continued to carry the name Sunshine Special. In summer 1948, the connection was changed to meet MP's Texas Eagle (MP's Sunshine Special continued to operate under that name on MP). On PRR, the train name was changed to Texas Eagle (still numbered 3 and 4 on PRR). Even though PRR used the MP train name, only the sleepers continued to run through, and no through train was re-established. PRR subsequently renamed its train the Penn Texas by December of that same year (still numbered PRR 3 and 4). The Texas Eagle still ran on the MP and the two trains continued to exchange sleepers, but again, no through train service was reinstated. Through Texas-NY sleeper service via MP-PRR finally ended in 1961, but the Penn Texas, still carrying numbers 3 and 4, continued to run right up into Penn Central days, and still provided a change-trains connection with MP's Texas Eagle at St. Louis. The Penn Texas was finally discontinued in late June 1970, less than a year before the coming of Amtrak. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------- Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Jerry & list members > > What year did the Penn-Texas start running as a train by that name? > Weren't through sleeping cars run New York to Texas destinations via > the PRR to St. Louis then the MP and MKT prior to their being a > "Penn-Texas" by name? Also, was there not at one time a through car > New York--Mexico City also routed the same way? Anybody have any > details on this service? > > Ron Di Orio > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search > - > Faster. Easier. Bingo. --------------030400030808070909040501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to Ron, Jerry and the List:

Through PRR service to Texas and Mexico began on July 7, 1946, with much fanfare and the establishment of a through train named the Sunshine Special (which was the name of an existing MP train), which ran via PRR-St. Louis-MP-Dallas-T&P-Laredo-NdeM. It included:
-- a sleeper-lounge NY-Dallas-Fort Worth
-- coaches NY-DFW, NY-San Anton, Wash.-Houston
-- sleepers NY-Houston, NY-San Anton., NY-El Paso, NY-Mexico City, Wash.-Dallas, and Wash.-Houston.
-- diner NY-DFW

It operated as Trains 3 and 4 on PRR and, as mentioned, assumed the existing name of the MP train. In April 1948, it ceased being a through train and the coaches, lounge and diner stopped running through to MP, but the sleepers continued to provide through service. Coach pasengers could still connect, but they had to change at St. Louis. On PRR, the train continued to carry the name Sunshine Special.

In summer 1948, the connection was changed to meet MP's Texas Eagle (MP's Sunshine Special continued to operate under that name on MP). On PRR, the train name was changed to Texas Eagle (still numbered 3 and 4 on PRR). Even though PRR used the MP train name, only the sleepers continued to run through, and no through train was re-established.

PRR subsequently renamed its train the Penn Texas by December of that same year (still numbered PRR 3 and 4). The Texas Eagle still ran on the MP and the two trains continued to exchange sleepers, but again, no through train service was reinstated.

Through Texas-NY sleeper service via MP-PRR finally ended in 1961, but the Penn Texas, still carrying numbers 3 and 4, continued to run right up into Penn Central days, and still provided a change-trains connection with MP's Texas Eagle at St. Louis. The Penn Texas was finally discontinued in late June 1970, less than a year before the coming of Amtrak.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

-----------------------------------------
Ronald Di Orio wrote:
Jerry & list members
 
What year did the Penn-Texas start running as a train by that name?  Weren't through sleeping cars run New York to Texas destinations via the PRR to St. Louis then the MP and MKT prior to their being a "Penn-Texas" by name?  Also, was there not at one time a through car New York--Mexico City also routed the same way?  Anybody have any details on this service?
 
Ron Di Orio
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

--------------030400030808070909040501-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] museum thread Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:40:48 -0400 Several years ago Gloria Schliecher of the PAHMC got everyone together to market a statewide RRer's Hertiage Discount Pass. She is gone and so is the pass. I think we have a "friend" in the new Chairman of the Commission. Hopefully we can get something together when they hire her replacement. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Freitas" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: [PRR] museum thread > Jerry & Scott, > > When you market the RAILROADER'S PASS that links ALL > of the PRR experiences send me a note>>I'll buy the first one! Then in one > trip one can study equipment, and what it took to operate it and keep it > moving. No research is without merit, and museums are an endless mine to be > explored. > Fred in Vt. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:52:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: PRR Conductor Recording --part1_163.20c4b841.2bfeaec4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That would be nice! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio --part1_163.20c4b841.2bfeaec4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would be nice!

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
 --part1_163.20c4b841.2bfeaec4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:58:31 -0400 List, >From the look of some photgraphs, it looks like it might be toluidine red, same as used in keystone number plates. Anyone know if it was?? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Tom Kane'" ; Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? > Re: The window sashes seem to be a shade of red. > > Yes, the window sash was painted red. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:26:29 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Gregg, Tom, et al., I'd say that toluidine red was pretty close if not exact for the sash. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:36:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas --part1_f8.2cc53458.2bfec70b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/22/2003 4:29:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > What year did the Penn-Texas start running as a train by that name? > Weren't through sleeping cars run New York to Texas destinations via the PRR to St. > Louis then the MP and MKT prior to their being a "Penn-Texas" by name? > Also, was there not at one time a through car New York--Mexico City also routed > the same way? Anybody have any details on this service? > August 15, 1948 renames Penn-Texas formerly The Sunshime Special. Rich Orr --part1_f8.2cc53458.2bfec70b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 05/22/2003 4:29:59 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes:


What year did the Penn-Texas st= art running as a train by that name?  Weren't through sleeping cars run= New York to Texas destinations via the PRR to St. Louis then the MP and MKT= prior to their being a "Penn-Texas" by name?  Also, was there not at o= ne time a through car New York--Mexico City also routed the same way? =20= Anybody have any details on this service?


August 15, 1948 renames Penn-Texas formerly The Sunshime Special.

Rich Orr --part1_f8.2cc53458.2bfec70b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:39:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts --part1_f8.2cc4cbce.2bfec7b8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the process of building a proto-freelanced version of the PRR's Schuylkill Branch. The reason I chose to do this is because the Pennsy, as vast and as impressive at is was all through its network, doesn't provide the exact combination of features that I want for my own model railroad. As a result, I'm building a double-track, heavy-duty passenger line between Philadelphia and Pottsville that's electrified as far as Reading. I've "liberated" some trackage from the Reading Company to extend my line through Pottsville into Mt Carmel and onto Sunbury, eventually reconnecting with the true mainline at Lewisburg. Since PRR's Blue Ribbon fleet generally bypassed downtown Philadelphia, the route will serve as a sort of secondary passenger main for through East-West traffic that has Philly as the eastern anchor. I'm also "beefing up" the population bases in Norristown, Pottstown, Phoenixville, Reading and Pottsville to further justify the frequency and diversity of passenger trains that will operate over my line. Despite my obvious fits of fantasy here, I am trying to be true to the scenic, railroad and architectural elements of the real Schuylkill Branch whenever it suits my scheme to do so. I hope to achieve an obvious but generalized Pennsy look and feel, and perhaps even present some actually recognizable scenes from the Schuylkill Branch! Chris Baker #1918 --part1_f8.2cc4cbce.2bfec7b8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in the process of building a proto-freelanced ver= sion of the PRR's Schuylkill Branch.  The reason I chose to do this is=20= because the Pennsy, as vast and as impressive at is was all through its netw= ork, doesn't provide the exact combination of features that I want for my ow= n model railroad. 

As a result, I'm building a double-track, heavy-duty passenger line between=20= Philadelphia and Pottsville that's electrified as far as Reading.  I've= "liberated" some trackage from the Reading Company to extend my line throug= h Pottsville into Mt Carmel and onto Sunbury, eventually reconnecting with t= he true mainline at Lewisburg.  Since PRR's Blue Ribbon fleet generally= bypassed downtown Philadelphia, the route will serve as a sort of secondary= passenger main for through East-West traffic that has Philly as the eastern= anchor.  I'm also "beefing up" the population bases in Norristown, Pot= tstown, Phoenixville, Reading and Pottsville to further justify the frequenc= y and diversity of passenger trains that will operate over my line.

Despite my obvious fits of fantasy here, I am trying to be true to the sceni= c, railroad and architectural elements of the real Schuylkill Branch wheneve= r it suits my scheme to do so.  I hope to achieve an obvious but genera= lized Pennsy look and feel, and perhaps even present some actually recogniza= ble scenes from the Schuylkill Branch!

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_f8.2cc4cbce.2bfec7b8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:41:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Texas Special" Cars From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Anyone know of published or online photos of the two 10-6 cars that were painted in "Texas Special" livery as of 1953? Swatara Rapids and Tioga Rapids replaced a couple of CASCADE 10-5 cars as of that time. I can find photos of the CASCADE's, but not of the RAPIDS'. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] museum thread Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:21:01 -0700 Jerry & Scott, When you market the RAILROADER'S PASS that links ALL of the PRR experiences send me a note>>I'll buy the first one! Then in one trip one can study equipment, and what it took to operate it and keep it moving. No research is without merit, and museums are an endless mine to be explored. Fred in Vt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:27:02 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Power for the 1954 Penn Texas > In a message dated 5/21/03 8:19:11 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << The Penn Texas, though a prestige train, was not one of the "highest tier" > trains, such as the Broadway and the Liberty. These likely had E8's by 1954. > >> > > Hmm. Last night I just coincidentally was in the "library" reading the > Summer 1991 Keystone. > The centerspread is a photo in November, 1952, of the Penn Texas Westbound > at Greenville, Illinois. The power is the last pair of EP22As delivered in > DGLE, #5904 and 5905. Its your railroad but I suspect by 1954 Pennsy felt > more comfortable protecting the schedule for passengers on the 4 through > sleepers and other cars on this long leg of the run with EMD products, as > they did on this day in 1952. > > Bob Zoeller > .....The last E8A pair numerically, delivered green, were #5905 & 5905 in April 1951, the last pair chronologically were #5806 & 5807 in July 1952. Jack Consoli ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:16:26 -0400 Guys, I am looking at the piece of wooden window trim I "liberated" from a Pittsburgh area PRR structure shortly before its demise. The exposed part (what little is left of it) is expectedly pretty dark. On the back side that was nailed against the frame the paint looks fairly fresh (considering it was probably last painted in 196x). It looks pretty close to my PRRTH&S "Maroon Building Paint" color drift card (shameless plug) with some tendncies towards the Tuscan Red card. I was looking through the 1954 building painting instructions I have and oddly enough they never mention a paint color for the sash trim. They talk about the Maroon for the gray and maroon scheme, Toluidine Red for Station signs and Tuscan Red for other signs - but nothing about sashes. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; 'Tom Kane' ; Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? > Gregg, Tom, et al., > > I'd say that toluidine red was pretty close if not exact for the sash. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 06:41:10 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Museums, etc. I second the motion there Pete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peter Weiglin wrote: > Frankly, the flood of messages on the general topic of museums, the general > comparative merits of sundry locations, the politics, the travails; it's all > very wearying. At least one legitimate Pennsy-knowledgable fan has said he may > unsubscribe, if that is what dominates what should be a list about the PRR. > > Thanks to Scott Cessna for injecting some possibly unwelcome sanity and fact > into what had become a dream-woven spiderweb of conjecture. > > Now -- if there isn't a "Museum Dreams and Operations" discussion group out > there, it seems that there might be a market for one. But the question is > whether PRR-Talk is the proper place for field-of-dreams blather. > > If the consensus is that PRR-Talk IS such a place, look for a realignment of > some subscribers; those who value their time and don't wish to waste it on > speculations about something that (a) does not really relate to the PRR (which > ceased to exist in 1968, remember??), and (2) cannot be influenced by the > discussion. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 05:53:00 -0700 Thanks everyone for your input. I will finish the painting and assembling this weekend. Tom -----Original Message----- From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:16 PM To: Al Buchan; 'Gregg Mahlkov'; 'Tom Kane'; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? Guys, I am looking at the piece of wooden window trim I "liberated" from a Pittsburgh area PRR structure shortly before its demise. The exposed part (what little is left of it) is expectedly pretty dark. On the back side that was nailed against the frame the paint looks fairly fresh (considering it was probably last painted in 196x). It looks pretty close to my PRRTH&S "Maroon Building Paint" color drift card (shameless plug) with some tendncies towards the Tuscan Red card. I was looking through the 1954 building painting instructions I have and oddly enough they never mention a paint color for the sash trim. They talk about the Maroon for the gray and maroon scheme, Toluidine Red for Station signs and Tuscan Red for other signs - but nothing about sashes. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; 'Tom Kane' ; Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR bashable tower? > Gregg, Tom, et al., > > I'd say that toluidine red was pretty close if not exact for the sash. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:58:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Withers PRR Diesels Volume 8 From: Jerry Britton Withers has reprinted volume 8 of their PRR diesels book. If you recall, they had it at the PRRT&HS convention in early May, but the printer had assembled it out of order. Withers issued a recall on the few copies they had sold. Quantities of the corrected printing are now in the dealer channel. Volume 1, on the Atlas RS series, is also back in print and in the dealer channel. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:33:58 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Test From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Checking to see if I typed your email correctly. No need to respond. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Steam under catenary in the 50's Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:53:56 +0000 How common was it for steam to be on the corridor in the mid 50's? I know that steam was used on several PRSL runs out of 30th st. What about freight? I assume H's and B6sb's were used on transfer runs to Camden but what about running up the corridor. Has anyone ever seen a picture of steam on the Highline? Could I1s and M1s be seen in Philly also? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:43:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam under catenary in the 50's >How common was it for steam to be on the corridor in the mid 50's? As through power...almost never. As power on locals...more common, but a LOT depends on what year you mean by "mid 50's"....BY the mid 50's the power shortage on the electrified lines had been solved weith the second batch of GG1s, and all of the P5as were on freight duty. Of course, the PRR was trying to find replacements in the experimental of the 50's but this was because they wanted to improve on the P5s (1930's technology...20+ years old etc) >I know that steam was used on several PRSL runs out of 30th st. What >about freight? I assume H's and B6sb's were used on transfer runs to >Camden but what about running up the corridor. Also, many videos of "Race Track Specials" pulled by K4s from philly to NJ. >Has anyone ever seen a picture of steam on the >Highline? Yes, K4s on freight >Could I1s and M1s be seen in Philly also? Yes, but...as of 1945, 240 steam locomotives were assigned to the Philadelphia Division, 210 to the Philly Terminal Div. On the Philly division, the ranking was: 1) L1s 82 2) H9S 68 3) I1sa 20 4) B6sb 12 5) M1a 11 6) M1 9 On the Philly terminal: 1) H9sb 50 2) B6sb 43 3) L1s 40 4) A5s 31 5) B6sa 17 6) B8 14 Of course, in 10 years a WHOLE lot changed, but this gives you an idea of the distribution...Philly was never the home of the big road power like the middle of PA. After all, they had electrics for the heavy work. You will notice the total absence of K4s on either list? That of course DOES NOT mean that there were no K4s, just that they were assigned to other divisions, such as NY and MD. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:53:03 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit --=====================_1496165==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List Members, I have read with interest all the postings about 1361 and getting it back on rails and under steam. But today's posting by the Ohio Central is VERY discouraging. They have (had?)and outstanding steam program, including a large 4-8-4, #6325 and their own track to run it on, including a large portion of the old PRR Panhandle. But it appears the insurance issue is killing even their program. Read and weep. Tom Hayden END OF AN ERA May 22, 2003 The Ohio Central Railroad regretfully announces the end of regular passenger train service effective Saturday May 24, 2003. Daily Steam powered passenger trains based out of Sugarcreek, OH will make the final run at 3:30pm on Saturday May 24th. "Rails to the Circus" train will run from Columbus to Coshocton, OH powered by Vintage Diesel on May 24th. On May 31st, 4-8-4 #6325 will pull possibly her last excursion from Dennison to Newark, OH and vintage diesel will be the return power. The very emotional and difficult decision was based mainly on skyrocketing liability insurance costs and a sluggish tourism economy. This was a very hard choice to make and one that we had hoped would never have to make. At this time, we will be running the "Ohio Bicentennial" train ride on June 21st with vintage diesel. All Fall excursions are currently on hold pending further discussions with the insurance agent. All other excursions are canceled for the year including Pittsburgh excursions, Murder Mysteries, Riverboat Cruises, and all other trips planned for this Summer. No decisions have been made as of yet what will happen with the steam locomotives, passenger equipment and tooling. The decision to shut down daily passenger operations is final. We would like to thank everyone that came out and supported us over the past 15 years, without you, none of this would have been possible. Regretfully, The Ohio Central Steam Department Ticket information for remaining excursions: May 31 Strawberry Festival Flyer Steam and Diesel. Enjoy a daylong outing to the Newark, Ohio Strawberry Festival. Departs Dennison Ohio Depot at 8:30 a.m. and returns at 6:00 p.m. Contact: Mahoning Valley Railroad Historical Association at P.O. Box 3055, Youngstown, Ohio 44511 or 1-800-571-1199 for tickets. June 21 Ohio Bicentennial Train, Vintage Diesel, Whistle stop across the state from Newark, Ohio to Dennison, Ohio and back. Meet famous Ohio personalities such as Cy Young, Woody Hayes, Clark Gable, Governor William Dennison, U.S. Grant during your trip. Enjoy a layover at "The Big Buckeye Birthday Bash." Train stops at Newark, Frazeysburg, Coshocton, West Lafayette, Newcomerstown, Port Washington, Gnadenhutten, Uhrichsville, and Dennison. Call the Dennison depot for further information 877-278-8020. --=====================_1496165==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" List Members,

I have read with interest all the postings about 1361 and getting it back on rails and under steam. But today's posting by the Ohio Central is VERY discouraging. They have (had?)and outstanding steam program, including a large 4-8-4, #6325 and their own track to run it on, including a large portion of the old PRR Panhandle. But it appears the insurance issue is killing even their program. Read and weep.

Tom Hayden

END OF AN ERA
May 22, 2003

The Ohio Central Railroad regretfully announces the end of regular
passenger train service effective Saturday May 24, 2003. Daily Steam
powered passenger trains based out of Sugarcreek, OH will make the
final run at 3:30pm on Saturday May 24th.

"Rails to the Circus" train will run from Columbus to Coshocton, OH
powered by Vintage Diesel on May 24th. On May 31st, 4-8-4 #6325 will
pull possibly her last excursion from Dennison to Newark, OH and
vintage diesel will be the return power. The very emotional and
difficult decision was based mainly on skyrocketing liability
insurance costs and a sluggish tourism economy.  This was a very hard
choice to make and one that we had hoped would never have to make. 

At this time, we will be running the "Ohio Bicentennial" train ride
on June 21st with vintage diesel. All Fall excursions are currently
on hold pending further discussions with the insurance agent. All
other excursions are canceled for the year including Pittsburgh
excursions, Murder Mysteries, Riverboat Cruises, and all other trips
planned for this Summer.

No decisions have been made as of yet what will happen with the steam
locomotives, passenger equipment and tooling.  The decision to shut
down daily passenger operations is final.

We would like to thank everyone that came out and supported us over
the past 15 years, without you, none of this would have been
possible.

Regretfully,
The Ohio Central Steam Department


Ticket information for remaining excursions:

May 31 Strawberry Festival Flyer Steam and Diesel. Enjoy a daylong
outing to the Newark, Ohio Strawberry Festival. Departs Dennison Ohio
Depot at 8:30 a.m. and returns at 6:00 p.m. Contact: Mahoning Valley
Railroad Historical Association at P.O. Box 3055, Youngstown, Ohio
44511 or 1-800-571-1199 for tickets.

June 21 Ohio Bicentennial Train, Vintage Diesel, Whistle stop across
the state from Newark, Ohio to Dennison, Ohio and back. Meet famous
Ohio personalities such as Cy Young, Woody Hayes, Clark Gable,
Governor William Dennison, U.S. Grant during your trip. Enjoy a
layover at "The Big Buckeye Birthday Bash." Train stops at Newark,
Frazeysburg, Coshocton, West Lafayette, Newcomerstown, Port
Washington, Gnadenhutten, Uhrichsville, and Dennison. Call the
Dennison depot for further information 877-278-8020.


--=====================_1496165==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam under catenary in the 50's K4s operated under catenary from Jersey City to South Amboy in the mid-50s. K4s also powered the shore bound trains out of 30th street. I have a PENN tower sheet (30th Street Sta.) from 1956 that has quite a few K4s in service. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:06:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit In a message dated 5/23/03 10:48:26 AM, rbreyer@cesinfo.com writes: << We're now going to be left with nothing but captive small steam on 3 mile mainlines, and narrow gauge in the Rockies. It may soon be too expensive for even the UP to keep big steam alive, so get your pictures NOW. >> At the risk of telling you something you already know, there is a steam railroad operating several trips a day between Grapevine, Texas and Fort Worth, about 30 miles, call ed the Fort Worth & Western Railroad, operating a train called the Tarantula. Their website (http://www.TarantulaTrain.com/) describes the one steam engine as follows: "Steam Locomotive No. 2248 is a product of the Cooke Locomotive Works of Paterson, NJ. Built in 1896, 2248 was called a "heavy mountain-class" locomotive as indicated on the original Cooke drawings. The 4-6-0, or 10 wheeler, was built for and used by Southern Pacific long past the time that many steam engines had been replaced by diesels. This extension on life was due to 2248 being converted to a fire control "pumper" locomotive and assigned to the Northern California mountain district to fight forest, wooden snow shed and tunnel fires. As more modern fire control methods became available, the 2248 was remodeled and assigned to exhibition train service as a ceremonial engine for the SP. When her flue time ran out in late 1959, she was retired and purchased by a private collector, Chas. T. Brown. He and Walt Disney had plans to build a full size steam railroad around Griffith Park in Los Angeles. These plans never materialized, and Mr. Disney went on to open Disneyland. In 1974, 2248 was purchased by the Texas State Railroad, became Engine No. 200 and was painted blue with red and white trim in honor of the United States Bicentennial. Again, the locomotive became obsolete after 5 years of service and was stored in Rusk, Texas. In 1990, 2248 was purchased by Tarantula and was fully restored at the 8th Avenue Yard in Fort Worth, with the exception of boiler repairs. "Puffy", as the engine is fondly called, was placed in service January 1992, and is the only operational steam locomotive in Texas that dates from before the turn of the century. (Restoration Cost: $1,000,000) " My wife and I frequently drive in to FW on weekends to have a beer, listen to the local music at stockyard bars and watch the arrival and departure of the train. The engine pulls the train into the station, detaches and moves forward to a small turntable. The engine spins and runs around the station, backing onto the far end of the train. At departure, it simply pulls out. It isn't a draft of road engines, but it is a nice little line. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nevin Byers" Subject: [PRR] Official East Broad Top Railroad Homepage Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:36:54 -0400 I would like to announce the debut of the East Broad Top Railroad's official webpage. Please update your bookmarks. http://www.ebtrr.com -- Nevin Byers http://www.parails.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:02:59 -0500 Hi Y'all Please don't forget the Texas State Railroad running from Palestine TX to Rusk TX (and vice versa). URL: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/park/railroad/railroad.htm Then there's the Hill Country Flyer down in Austin TX. URL: http://www.austinsteamtrain.org/ These were/are running the last I heard. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, 23 May, 2003 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > > In a message dated 5/23/03 10:48:26 AM, rbreyer@cesinfo.com writes: > > << We're now going to be left with nothing but > captive small steam on 3 mile mainlines, and narrow gauge in the Rockies. > It may soon be too expensive for even the UP to keep big steam alive, so get > your pictures NOW. >> > > At the risk of telling you something you already know, there is a steam > railroad operating several trips a day between Grapevine, Texas and Fort Worth, > about 30 miles, call ed the Fort Worth & Western Railroad, operating a train > called the Tarantula. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:39:52 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C32117.A47D10D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yup, this really sucks. The first thing I saw this morning when I checked my emails was a lot of postings on the death of the OC steam program. My plans have changed drastically for this Memorial Day weekend (I'm now chasing steam in Ohio). The only mainline steam running this year is 2-3 trips by 3985. After that, nada. Personally, I think that big steam is dead in this country, due to the gross insurance costs. We're now going to be left with nothing but captive small steam on 3 mile mainlines, and narrow gauge in the Rockies. It may soon be too expensive for even the UP to keep big steam alive, so get your pictures NOW. Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Tom Hayden Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:53 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit List Members, I have read with interest all the postings about 1361 and getting it back on rails and under steam. But today's posting by the Ohio Central is VERY discouraging. They have (had?)and outstanding steam program, including a large 4-8-4, #6325 and their own track to run it on, including a large portion of the old PRR Panhandle. But it appears the insurance issue is killing even their program. Read and weep. Tom Hayden ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C32117.A47D10D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yup,=20 this really sucks.   The first thing I saw this morning when I = checked=20 my emails was a lot of postings on the death of the OC steam = program.  My=20 plans have changed drastically for this Memorial Day weekend (I'm now = chasing=20 steam in Ohio).
 
The=20 only mainline steam running this year is 2-3 trips by 3985.  After = that,=20 nada.  Personally, I think that big steam is dead in this country, = due to=20 the gross insurance costs.  We're now going to be left with nothing = but=20 captive small steam on 3 mile mainlines, and narrow gauge in the = Rockies. =20 It may soon be too expensive for even the UP to keep big steam alive, so = get=20 your pictures NOW.
 
Ray=20 Breyer
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Tom = Hayden
Sent:=20 Friday, May 23, 2003 7:53 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: = [PRR]=20 Operating steam takes a big hit

List=20 Members,

I have read with interest all the postings about 1361 = and=20 getting it back on rails and under steam. But today's posting by the = Ohio=20 Central is VERY discouraging. They have (had?)and outstanding steam = program,=20 including a large 4-8-4, #6325 and their own track to run it on, = including a=20 large portion of the old PRR Panhandle. But it appears the insurance = issue is=20 killing even their program. Read and weep.

Tom Hayden=20

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C32117.A47D10D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Official East Broad Top Railroad Homepage Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:20 -0500 There is also a Friends of the East Broad Top Home Page. What's the difference, and why could not the be combined? -----Original Message----- From: Nevin Byers [mailto:nevin@parails.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:37 AM To: slimrails@yahoogroups.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Official East Broad Top Railroad Homepage I would like to announce the debut of the East Broad Top Railroad's official webpage. Please update your bookmarks. http://www.ebtrr.com -- Nevin Byers http://www.parails.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:15:14 -0700 Actually, I didn't know about the Tarantula Train. Thanks for the link. Right after I sent my last email, I realized that I did forget three other relatively long tourist operations: Nevada Northern, Grand Canyon RR, and the Tennessee Valley. I suppose I can include Steamtown in that list, too. But my main point is still that the days of mainline steam are basically over, and that big steam is on the outs as well. I wonder why organizations are still restoring big steam to operate these days? Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 9:07 AM To: rbreyer@cesinfo.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit In a message dated 5/23/03 10:48:26 AM, rbreyer@cesinfo.com writes: << We're now going to be left with nothing but captive small steam on 3 mile mainlines, and narrow gauge in the Rockies. It may soon be too expensive for even the UP to keep big steam alive, so get your pictures NOW. >> At the risk of telling you something you already know, there is a steam railroad operating several trips a day between Grapevine, Texas and Fort Worth, about 30 miles, call ed the Fort Worth & Western Railroad, operating a train called the Tarantula. Their website (http://www.TarantulaTrain.com/) describes the one steam engine as follows: "Steam Locomotive No. 2248 is a product of the Cooke Locomotive Works of Paterson, NJ. Built in 1896, 2248 was called a "heavy mountain-class" locomotive as indicated on the original Cooke drawings. The 4-6-0, or 10 wheeler, was built for and used by Southern Pacific long past the time that many steam engines had been replaced by diesels. This extension on life was due to 2248 being converted to a fire control "pumper" locomotive and assigned to the Northern California mountain district to fight forest, wooden snow shed and tunnel fires. As more modern fire control methods became available, the 2248 was remodeled and assigned to exhibition train service as a ceremonial engine for the SP. When her flue time ran out in late 1959, she was retired and purchased by a private collector, Chas. T. Brown. He and Walt Disney had plans to build a full size steam railroad around Griffith Park in Los Angeles. These plans never materialized, and Mr. Disney went on to open Disneyland. In 1974, 2248 was purchased by the Texas State Railroad, became Engine No. 200 and was painted blue with red and white trim in honor of the United States Bicentennial. Again, the locomotive became obsolete after 5 years of service and was stored in Rusk, Texas. In 1990, 2248 was purchased by Tarantula and was fully restored at the 8th Avenue Yard in Fort Worth, with the exception of boiler repairs. "Puffy", as the engine is fondly called, was placed in service January 1992, and is the only operational steam locomotive in Texas that dates from before the turn of the century. (Restoration Cost: $1,000,000) " My wife and I frequently drive in to FW on weekends to have a beer, listen to the local music at stockyard bars and watch the arrival and departure of the train. The engine pulls the train into the station, detaches and moves forward to a small turntable. The engine spins and runs around the station, backing onto the far end of the train. At departure, it simply pulls out. It isn't a draft of road engines, but it is a nice little line. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:38:47 +0000 PRR-Listers: It is very discouraging news. I do have a question. Are the spiraling insurance costs directly related to unlimited tort liability? Is it because that if there is an accident on the steam excursion, the railroad can be sued out of existance? If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform than anything else. Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:21:30 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re:Operations and Prototype --=====================_17787430==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Friends, I have been told that my layout doesn't follow "realistic values" and I do not qualify as a layout based on PRR methods. To that I plead guilty but, in my defense,I also only had a vague idea of how my prototype operated even though I lived in the area for 26 years and I was within walking distance of it's operations. With a railroad as obscure as the one I model, I did the next best thing, I created a railroad based on "what-if".Very little has ever been written about the Cornwall Railroad and even less about the Lebanon Branch of the PRR that paralleled it for 10 miles into Lebanon. I challenge anyone on this list to come up with enough information to model that branch accurately. That said, I also chose this railroad for very personal reasons. My father worked for 37 years at the Lebanon Bethlehem Steel plant and my wife's Grandfather worked for Bethlehem mines in Cornwall. I couldn't think of a better way to honor these two men than by preserving the memory of their chosen careers and the industry that fed their families. The layout was designed to fit the space I had available and to provide several friends that did not have the space for a large railroad of their own, the opportunity to help build and operate a large model railroad. Sadly, most of the original members of this group have dropped off the face of the earth and out of the hobby but there has been a new group to take their place. >One concern I have about the state of the hobby is that everyone seems to >feel the need to do things the way a very small number of people say they >should be done Over the years I have had experience with these so-called "experts" and the common theme I've seen is that they cannot seem to remember that this is a HOBBY, not a profession. If I can't afford to buy 200 XYZ style hoppers because that is the number that was really used on that branch, I won't remortgage the house to get them. If I have 20 1950's Varney hoppers, they will just have to make do. I love to see beautifully detailed equipment that is available but I also realize that I cannot afford the newest eye-candy from the brass importers. The 30+ year-old brass that I posess will outlast the newer models because they were designed to run, not display on a shelf. >However, my own experience is that it is difficult, even in a large >metropolitan area, to get an operating group of a dozen or more who share >an interest in operation on a layout that isn't established. And as a >recent column in RMC said, if you did, would you really want to? The biggest problem I have encountered in my remote rural area is not finding operators, but finding people that want to work on a large layout. I had a small problem when I wanted to start operating, most of the work crew wasn't interested in "operation". They had never been exposed to it. They were content to run trains, sans LIONEL-Style, in circles until the wheels fell off. I had designed and built the layout for operation, not railfanning, so I explained to them that they were first-choice for crews when I started operating but if they didn't want to join in the operation, they could stay home during the operating sessions and I would find operators for the op sessions. Through the many lists I belong to for my DCC choice, my operations group, my car cards group, and the PRR groups, I have a list of over 35 people that will gladly come from as far away as Staten Island, New York and as far south as Virginia just to operate. The best part is that they don't care that I don't have 200 XYZ hopper cars, they just want to operate and have fun. >Groups that size have politics to deal with, and you run the risk of >letting the other guys tell you how to build your layout. The simple thing that I use to quell that problem is a large pickel jar. When someone insists that I do something I don't want to do on a layout that I pay 100% of the costs, I simply hand them the jar and tell them to fill it with $20.00 bills every time they come over. That way they will have a vested interest in the layout, until they comply, I simply do what I feel is the priority, in the manner I decide. On the flip side, if the idea is a valid one that simply hadn't been approached yet, any logical suggestion is a good one as long as it doesn't alter my ultimate goal of operating the layout. >Some modelers are risk-averse and don't want to get involved with a >project that hasn't been published. Excallent point. A lot of the ideas on my layout are "unpublished". When we were preparing the layout for the PRRT&HS national convention in 2002, my crew spent a lot of time doing scenery in an area. I had tried the old masking tape web and newspaper method on an earlier layout and I HATED it for the mess, the large amount of wood and material it used, and the large expense. When one of my crew asked where the newspaper was, I told him we weren't using newspaper, we were going to try something I had dreamed up. They argued about it until they saw I wasn't going to build a new support structure out of wood just for the scnery. We took the 3/16" fan-fold foam found at Home Depot ($20.00 for a section 4' high and over 48' long)and I told them to make a "grid" out of it. It is self-supporting (no lumber), it is strong, and it goes together in a short time. I then took plaster gauze that I had purchased from a medical supply company for less than 1/4 of the "model railroad" brand, andcovered the grid. We added pre mixed joint compound on top of that and painted it with a dark latex paint. It was detailed later in the week by my wife with normal scenery materials. If you don't try new ideas there won't be any new articles in the model press because it's been done before. My main goal is operation. I enjoy that aspect of the hobby as well as the socialization. I don't want to constantly be wondering,"would the real brakeman have to turn the brake wheel 13 or 14 times to apply the brakes on a car", that just doesn't trip my trigger. To those that it does, I simply say, "It's your railroad, do what you want". Cheers, Nick Kulp >From: "John Bruce" >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:03:46 -0700 >William Neale writes, > >I agree with William (Bill's?) later conclusion that = there=20 must be >some other set of options. > > > >If you decide you don't need to build your layout = the way one=20 guy in >a magazine tells you to, you have many more options, which would = >include=20 sequence-style operation on a smaller prototype; freelance or = >semi-freelance=20 prototype; or other ideas. --=====================_17787430==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends,

I have been told that my layout doesn't follow "realistic values" and I do not qualify as a layout based on PRR methods. To that I plead guilty but, in my defense,I also only had a vague idea of how my prototype operated even though I lived in the area for 26 years and I was within walking distance of it's operations. With a railroad as obscure as the one I model, I did the next best thing, I created a railroad based on "what-if".Very little has ever been written about the Cornwall Railroad and even less about the Lebanon Branch of the PRR that paralleled it for 10 miles into Lebanon. I challenge anyone on this list to come up with enough information to model that branch accurately.

That said, I also chose this railroad for very personal reasons. My father worked for 37 years at the Lebanon Bethlehem Steel plant and my wife's Grandfather worked for Bethlehem mines in Cornwall. I couldn't think of a better way to honor these two men than by preserving the memory of their chosen careers and the industry that fed their families.

The layout was designed to fit the space I had available and to provide several friends that did not have the space for a large railroad of their own, the opportunity to help build and operate a large model railroad. Sadly, most of the original members of this group have dropped off the face of the earth and out of the hobby but there has been a new group to take their place.

One concern I have about the state of the hobby is that everyone seems to feel the need to do things the way a very small number of people say they should be done

Over the years I have had experience with these so-called "experts" and the common theme I've seen is that they cannot seem to remember that this is a HOBBY, not a profession. If I can't afford to buy 200 XYZ style hoppers because that is the number that was really used on that branch, I won't remortgage the house to get them. If I have 20 1950's Varney hoppers, they will just have to make do. I love to see beautifully detailed equipment that is available but I also realize that I cannot afford the newest eye-candy from the brass importers. The 30+ year-old brass that I posess will outlast the newer models because they were designed to run, not display on a shelf.

However, my own experience is that it is difficult, even in a large metropolitan area, to get an operating group of a dozen or more who share an interest in operation on a layout that isn't established.  And as a recent column in RMC said, if you did, would you really want to? =20

The biggest problem I have encountered in my remote rural area is not finding operators, but finding people that want to work on a large layout. I had a small problem when I wanted to start operating, most of  the work crew wasn't interested in "operation". They had never been exposed to it. They were content to run trains, sans LIONEL-Style, in circles until the wheels fell off. I had designed and built the layout for operation, not railfanning, so I explained to them that they were first-choice for crews when I started operating but if they didn't want to join in the operation, they could stay home during the operating sessions and I would find operators for the op sessions. Through the many lists I belong to for my DCC choice, my operations group, my car cards group, and the PRR groups, I have a list of over 35 people that will gladly come from as far away as Staten Island, New York and as far south as Virginia just to operate. The best part is that they don't care that I don't have 200 XYZ hopper cars, they just want to operate and have fun.

Groups that size ha= ve politics to deal with, and you run the risk of letting the other guys tell  you how to build your layout.  

The simple thing that I use to quell that problem is a large pickel jar. When someone insists that I do something I don't want to do on a layout that I pay 100% of the costs, I simply hand them the jar and tell them to fill it with $20.00 bills every time they come over. That way they will have a vested interest in the layout, until they comply, I simply do what I feel is the priority, in the manner I decide. On the flip side, if the idea is a valid one that simply hadn't been approached yet, any logical suggestion is a good one as long as it doesn't alter my ultimate goal of operating the layout.

Some modelers are risk-averse and don't want to get involved with a project that hasn't been published.

Excallent point. A lot of the ideas on my layout are "unpublished". When we were preparing the layout for the PRRT&HS national convention in 2002, my crew spent a lot of time doing scenery in an area. I had tried the old masking tape web and newspaper method on an earlier layout and I HATED it for the mess, the large amount of wood and material it used, and the large expense. When one of my crew asked where the newspaper was, I told him we weren't using newspaper, we were going to try something I had dreamed up. They argued about it until they saw I wasn't going to build a new support structure out of wood just for the scnery. We took the 3/16" fan-fold foam found at Home Depot ($20.00 for a section 4' high and over 48' long)and I told them to make a "grid" out of it. It is self-supporting (no lumber), it is strong, and it goes together in a short time. I then took plaster gauze that I had purchased from a medical supply company for less than 1/4 of the "model railroad" brand, andcovered the grid. We added pre mixed joint compound on top of that and painted it with a dark latex paint. It was detailed later in the week by my wife with normal scenery materials. If you don't try new ideas there won't be any new articles in the model press because it's been done before.

My main goal is operation. I enjoy that aspect of the hobby as well as the socialization. I don't want to constantly be wondering,"would the real brakeman have to turn the brake wheel 13 or 14 times to apply the brakes on a car", that just doesn't trip my trigger. To those that it does, I simply say, "It's your railroad, do what you want".

Cheers,
Nick Kulp



From: "John Bruce" <j.bruce@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:03:46 -0700
William Neale writes,
 
I agree with William (Bill's?) later conclusion that =3D there=3D20 must be some other set of options. 
 

 
If you decide you don't need to build your layout =3D the way one=3D20 guy i= n a magazine tells you to, you have many more options, which would =3D include=3D20 sequence-style operation on a smaller prototype; freelance or =3D semi-freelance=3D20 prototype; or other ideas.
--=====================_17787430==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:23:30 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32160.CB1BCE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ted, I can only say what relates to to the engineering field and that is that recent changes mean that anything that happens anywhere for whatever reason (it needn't be negligence) can put an individual in the position of being subject to a lawsuit and ENORMOUS penalties at any time during one's lifetime. For that reason alone, insurance on businesses has increased many times. One may expect that many small businesses that could be subject to accident or mishap may cease to exist in short order. We are now witnessing small and medium-sized firms going out of business, or being willingly absorbed into larger concerns that can afford the insurance and legal retainage necessary to continue operations. One can expect that engineer's will be unwilling to put their stamp on plans, doctors will be unwilling to treat patients, and manufacturers will be unwilling to produce products that may pose a threat through misuse. The day of the Mom-and-Pop operation that produces something or provides a service may be at end. You can see how that will affect an operation that relies on something as potentially dangerous as steam. We can only hope for reform. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:39 AM To: rbreyer@cesinfo.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit PRR-Listers: It is very discouraging news. I do have a question. Are the spiraling insurance costs directly related to unlimited tort liability? Is it because that if there is an accident on the steam excursion, the railroad can be sued out of existance? If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform than anything else. Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32160.CB1BCE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit

Ted,  I can only say what relates to to the = engineering field and that is that recent changes mean that anything = that happens anywhere for whatever reason (it needn't be negligence) = can put an individual in the position of being subject to a lawsuit and = ENORMOUS penalties at any time during one's lifetime.  For that = reason alone, insurance on businesses has increased many times.  = One may expect that many small businesses that could be subject to = accident or mishap may cease to exist in short order.  We are now = witnessing small and medium-sized firms going out of business, or being = willingly absorbed into larger concerns that can afford the insurance = and legal retainage necessary to continue operations.  One can = expect that engineer's will be unwilling to put their stamp on plans, = doctors will be unwilling to treat patients, and manufacturers will be = unwilling to produce products that may pose a threat through = misuse.  The day of the Mom-and-Pop operation that produces = something or provides a service may be at end.  You can see how = that will affect an operation that relies on something as potentially = dangerous as steam.

We can only hope for reform.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com]
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:39 AM
To: rbreyer@cesinfo.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big = hit


PRR-Listers:

It is very discouraging news. I do have a question. = Are the spiraling
insurance costs directly related to unlimited tort = liability? Is it because
that if there is an accident on the steam excursion, = the railroad can be
sued out of existance?

If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform = than anything else.

Ted Andrews

_______________________________________________________________= __
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 = months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32160.CB1BCE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:39:03 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Official East Broad Top Railroad Homepage Greetings to all: For several years, the best online sources of information about EBT were those of the Friends (www.febt.org) and one of its members, Chris Coleman (http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/links.html). Various others have sponsored pages on the Web, but EBT itself did not, that is, until several weeks ago. As to why the EBT and FEBT sites are not combined, the organizations are certainly interrelated and share many of the same goals, but they are fundamentally different. The railroad is owned by a for-profit company (and is therefore a .com), while FEBT -- like PRRT&HS (required PRR content) -- is a 501(c)3 non-profit group (and is therefore a .org). While FEBT often posted information about the railroad and its operations, schedules and fares (and still does), it could never speak officially for it. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: >There is also a Friends of the East Broad Top Home Page. What's the >difference, and why could not the be combined? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nevin Byers [mailto:nevin@parails.com] >Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:37 AM >To: slimrails@yahoogroups.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Official East Broad Top Railroad Homepage > > >I would like to announce the debut of the East Broad Top Railroad's official >webpage. Please update your bookmarks. > >http://www.ebtrr.com > >-- >Nevin Byers >http://www.parails.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:51:31 -0400 A very good question. Does anyone on this list really know about these things? Frd Rea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > PRR-Listers: > > It is very discouraging news. I do have a question. Are the spiraling > insurance costs directly related to unlimited tort liability? Is it because > that if there is an accident on the steam excursion, the railroad can be > sued out of existance? > > If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform than anything else. > > Ted Andrews > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:44:31 -0400 List, In addition to the liability problems, principally with those looking for a "lottery winning" (My daughter broke her toe on the hopper flush pedal, pay me $1 million.), the other problem is that for some reason the insurance companies think that excursion trains, and especially steam locomotives, make exceptionally juicy targets for foreign terrorists. Whether they know something we don't is beyond me. Y'all forgot that the Frisco Mountain stopped operating for this very reason - insurance. I was once involved with a proposal to operate excursion trains on a freight railroad. The increase in premiums would have made insurance the largest single cost of the operation - and this was before 9/11/2001. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Breyer" To: "Fred Rea" ; "Ted Andrews" ; Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > It's very simple: skyrocketing insurance premiums have been the #1 reason > big steam and mainline excursions are going the way of the Dodo. Trains had > an article on it last year. The Ohio Central sites insurance costs as one of > the two reasons it's shutting down. SP 4449, SP&S 700, SOO 1003, and MILW > 261 are all in the same boat, according to their respective groups, and are > either not running at all, or are only running VERY limited schedules. > > It's a well-known reason for the end of lots of steam programs. > > Ray Breyer > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Rea [mailto:frea@insight.rr.com] > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 12:52 PM > To: Ted Andrews; rbreyer@cesinfo.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > > > A very good question. Does anyone on this list really know about these > things? > > Frd Rea > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ted Andrews" > To: ; > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 2:38 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > > > > PRR-Listers: > > > > It is very discouraging news. I do have a question. Are the spiraling > > insurance costs directly related to unlimited tort liability? Is it > because > > that if there is an accident on the steam excursion, the railroad can be > > sued out of existance? > > > > If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform than anything else. > > > > Ted Andrews > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:55:06 -0700 It's very simple: skyrocketing insurance premiums have been the #1 reason big steam and mainline excursions are going the way of the Dodo. Trains had an article on it last year. The Ohio Central sites insurance costs as one of the two reasons it's shutting down. SP 4449, SP&S 700, SOO 1003, and MILW 261 are all in the same boat, according to their respective groups, and are either not running at all, or are only running VERY limited schedules. It's a well-known reason for the end of lots of steam programs. Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: Fred Rea [mailto:frea@insight.rr.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 12:52 PM To: Ted Andrews; rbreyer@cesinfo.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit A very good question. Does anyone on this list really know about these things? Frd Rea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > PRR-Listers: > > It is very discouraging news. I do have a question. Are the spiraling > insurance costs directly related to unlimited tort liability? Is it because > that if there is an accident on the steam excursion, the railroad can be > sued out of existance? > > If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform than anything else. > > Ted Andrews > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam under catenary in the 50's Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:54:16 -0400 Friends: I remember many summer days sitting along the main at Lancaster watching trains during the 1954 to 1959 period. My initial remembrance was that there was some steam, but only local stuff, like H class and B and A class switchers. Electrics were the heavies, with some diesels, more diesel switchers than steam as time passed. I do remember a lot of double headed GG1 express/mail trains. I can't ever remember seeing a K4 or an M1 go past while I was train watching. PRR did keep an A5s on the 2X daily Water Street run to Quarryville for a long time, maybe into 1959, but I don't know the date for sure. I just gave away the last of my squashed pennies from the A5s at Farnum Field on water street. Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 9:53 AM Subject: [PRR] Steam under catenary in the 50's > How common was it for steam to be on the corridor in the mid 50's? I know that > steam was used on several PRSL runs out of 30th st. What about freight? I > assume H's and B6sb's were used on transfer runs to Camden but what about > running up the corridor. Has anyone ever seen a picture of steam on the > Highline? Could I1s and M1s be seen in Philly also? Thanks > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:42:28 -0400 List, This mostly addressed towards bennet. I realise that operating diesels is a different game in some respects to steam. Since you are obviously surviving though, how are you handling the insurance situation? Post 9-11 poloicies have forced you to obtain a poassenger manifest, but what else is involved for you to keep the Juniata Terminal Company and sepcifically the E-8 program alive? I may be looking for a hard answer, but since you're an insider, a different pespective would be appreciated. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:50:39 -0400 Insurance costs have more than doubled in the last two years. We have taken steps to limit our risks and have agreed to assume more financial responsibility where we believed it to be prudent. However, we now also carry higher limits on our liability coverage because of all of the aggressive lawyers that spam your TV sets. That is the one reason we have a strict "No Visitor" policy at our facility. Those who visited during the convention most likely had a once in a lifetime opportunity. We thought long and hard before saying, "Yes". Thank Steve Agostini for keeping the battry charged in his digital camera. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > List, > > This mostly addressed towards bennet. I realise that > operating diesels is a different game in some respects to > steam. Since you are obviously surviving though, how are > you handling the insurance situation? Post 9-11 poloicies > have forced you to obtain a poassenger manifest, but what > else is involved for you to keep the Juniata Terminal > Company and sepcifically the E-8 program alive? > > I may be looking for a hard answer, but since you're an > insider, a different pespective would be appreciated. > > -John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:36:35 -0500 From: "Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Ted Andrews said on Friday, May 23, 2003 at 1:38:47 PM: > If so, it sounds like we need tort liability reform than anything else. For the love of God, let's not get into a stupid political discussion! Trust me when I tell you that you are completely right, and that no more *ever* needs to be said on the subject. The same is true for people who believe the 180 degree opposite. Now let's get back to the PRR! -- Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen bob at crispen dot org "I'm supposed to be rooting for AOL over Microsoft? What's up next, Union Carbide versus Philip Morris?" - Jamie Zawinski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:52:59 -0400 From: davep Subject: Insurance Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit While I am no big fan of some legal verdicts, I don't think (as below) 'unlimited tort problems' are the main thing. I am semiproffessionally involved in display fireworks. We get to _know_ more about insurance than most people want to. As i have heard it (professionally) explained: Insurance companies (as any other) exist to make profits. Insurance compnaies (to some extent) are _investment_ compamies: Premiums do not Just Sit There, they get invested, to make money. Over the past coupla years, insurance Cos, as others, Have Lost Lotsa Money in the financial crunch. Soooooo, they need more money. One Guess where it comes from.... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:15:12 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: PRR - L&N Through Varnish Charles Castner, the dean of L&N passenger traffic, offers the following: In a message dated 5/22/03 8:22:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chascastner@earthlink.net writes: > Thu., 5/22/'03 @ 8:20 pm, edt > Rick: > > Re your friend Ron's query about L&N-PRR interchange in Cincy, > prior to CUT/'33, the New York/East through cars were swapped by both > roads at the Pearl & Butler depot near the river. I'm not sure how the > Chicago-Cincy-Florida cars were swapped (to-from L&N's Southland) but > maybe at the same station. > > After '33 of course, the through cars (mostly sleepers) were > swapped at CUT. Both the Pan and the Azalean handled red sleepers off > the Pennsy, and same for No. 8, which worked a Birmingham-New York and > Louisville-New York sleepers for #40, the "Cincinnati Ltd." (same > westbound, off PRR's #41). The "Southland" also received, forwarded > cars to/from PRR at Cincy, those cars moving overnight to/from Chicago. > I can remember sometime in the late 40s watching a K-4 start a very > heavy northbound "Southland" out of Winton Place, the suburban station > north of CUT. Quite a show! > > Hope this helps your friend. > > Charlie > Thanks, Charlie. Best guess is that the Southland and other trains out of Chicago used Pearl & Butler until CUT opened -- the Richmond Branch came all the way across northern Cincinnati to connect to the main line from Columbus at Rendcomb Junction, between Mariemont and Linwood (after CUT, these two passenger routes combined at Oakley in Norwood). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:15:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR - L&N Through Varnish --part1_146.12120eea.2c004bd0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Castner, the dean of L&N passenger traffic, offers the following: In a message dated 5/22/03 8:22:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chascastner@earthlink.net writes: > Thu., 5/22/'03 @ 8:20 pm, edt > Rick: > > Re your friend Ron's query about L&N-PRR interchange in Cincy, > prior to CUT/'33, the New York/East through cars were swapped by both > roads at the Pearl & Butler depot near the river. I'm not sure how the > Chicago-Cincy-Florida cars were swapped (to-from L&N's Southland) but > maybe at the same station. > > After '33 of course, the through cars (mostly sleepers) were > swapped at CUT. Both the Pan and the Azalean handled red sleepers off > the Pennsy, and same for No. 8, which worked a Birmingham-New York and > Louisville-New York sleepers for #40, the "Cincinnati Ltd." (same > westbound, off PRR's #41). The "Southland" also received, forwarded > cars to/from PRR at Cincy, those cars moving overnight to/from Chicago. > I can remember sometime in the late 40s watching a K-4 start a very > heavy northbound "Southland" out of Winton Place, the suburban station > north of CUT. Quite a show! > > Hope this helps your friend. > > Charlie > Thanks, Charlie. Best guess is that the Southland and other trains out of Chicago used Pearl & Butler until CUT opened -- the Richmond Branch came all the way across northern Cincinnati to connect to the main line from Columbus at Rendcomb Junction, between Mariemont and Linwood (after CUT, these two passenger routes combined at Oakley in Norwood). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_146.12120eea.2c004bd0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charles Castner, the dean of L&N passenger traffic= , offers the following:

In a message dated 5/22/03 8:22:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chascastner@ear= thlink.net writes:


Thu., 5/22/'03 @ 8:20 pm, edt Rick:

    Re your friend Ron's query about L&N-PRR interchange=20= in Cincy,
prior to CUT/'33, the New York/East through cars were swapped by both
roads at the Pearl & Butler depot near the river.  I'm not sure how= the
Chicago-Cincy-Florida cars were swapped (to-from L&N's Southland) but maybe at the same station.

    After '33 of course, the through cars (mostly sleepers) w= ere
swapped at CUT.  Both the Pan and the Azalean handled red sleepers off=20=
the Pennsy, and same for No. 8, which worked a Birmingham-New York and
Louisville-New York sleepers for #40, the "Cincinnati Ltd." (same
westbound, off PRR's #41).  The "Southland" also received, forwarded cars to/from PRR at Cincy, those cars moving overnight to/from Chicago. = ;
I can remember sometime in the late 40s watching a K-4 start a very
heavy northbound "Southland" out of Winton Place, the suburban station
north of CUT.  Quite a show!

    Hope this helps your friend.

            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =   Charlie


Thanks, Charlie.  Best guess is that the Southland and other trains out= of Chicago used Pearl & Butler until CUT opened -- the Richmond Branch=20= came all the way across northern Cincinnati to connect to the main line from= Columbus at Rendcomb Junction, between Mariemont and Linwood (after CUT, th= ese two passenger routes combined at Oakley in Norwood).

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_146.12120eea.2c004bd0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 04:59:34 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR and MPL Passenger train split. From: Dominic Mazoch If they passed head end and Pullmans between the two, why not the whole train, execpt for that one post war year? Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] Texas sleepers Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:57:26 -0700 List; One of our listers inquired about the Cascade/Rapids sleepers used on the Texas routes>>>>>thus far the research works out this way: >>>Cascade Meadow & Cascade Range were lettered for the Texas Special , May, 1948. Black roof>>>Red window band>>>Silver sides with "shadow line">>>skirting was dark maroon >>>In 1950 these cars were transferred to the Meteor. They were repainted for this service : >>>equipment now has Red roof, ends, and window band>>>Silver sides with "shadow lines">>>>letter board is changed to read PENNSYLVANIA not the name of the train as was the case in Texas Special consist >>>Cascade cars were replaced on the Texas Special by>>Swatara Rapids & Tioga Rapids in the 1950 upgrade. These cars were repainted to match the consist of the Texas Special as outlined at the beginning. >>>painting notes>>>have seen shadow line done by using fine printers border tape { 4 lines above the windows & 7 lines below } stuff comes in 32nds & 16ths as I recall, spray at VERY shallow angle. Try first!!!!! Remember to block out lettering spaces. So much for HO and larger N-- only saw one piece done with minute black decal stripes, and weathered to fool the eye. Nice work, if your up to it. >>>Champ used to make decals for these interchange cars, not sure as of this date if they are still available. Hope this helps with the project contemplated /// wish you good luck. Fred in Vt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] correction to prior post Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:06:28 -0700 Cascade cars were terminated on the Texas in 1950, and replaced by Rapids cars in same paint scheme, and reassigned. Cascade Brim & Cascade Ravine were the ones assigned to the Meteor, which ended in 1949, the cars were repainted tuscan in early 1950 This happens when you try 3 projects in one week. Sorry for the misquote earlier>>>never claimed perfection. Fred up too late in Vt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:47:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/20/03 From: John Sheets Chris B > > I can see someone unloading eastbound and stepping accross a platform to > board > a Strasburg train but what will westbound people do? One option, do like AMTRAK occasionally does here in Naperville, IL on BNSF, cross over and use the same platform for EAST and WEST bounds. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts (long!!!) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 12:34:34 -0400 Jeff: We're getting somewhat off-topic for a Pennsy-specific list, but if Jerry will indulge me: OK, perhaps I didn't explain as well as I might have. Jeff, if you're talking about a Gorre & Daphetid type of freelanced layout that goes from East Jockstrap to West Cupcake you MAY have a point, but again, it depends on the modeler. I don't remember if John Allen conducted "realistic" operations, or not. I think most "freelanced" layouts these days have some basis in geographical reality, in order to help bring in some of the owner's favorite prototype equipment via a connection, somewhere. There is also the "proto-freelancing" aspect, for instance, if a modeler dreams up a layout where the PRR had been extended into New England to compete directly with the NYC's Boston & Albany. Or, if the modeler can't find a particular part of the PRR that fits in everything he wants within a given prototypical segment, and freelances a PRR layout that does. This reminds me of an O-scale layout John Armstrong designed in a 1960-era MR article entitled "For men who want everything" -- the layout had no (stated) prototype, but it sure looked like the PRR, and if it ever got built, man, what a blast it must have been to operate! The basic schematic was point-to-loop. It had a large (for O-scale) sea- or lake port terminal on both sides of an aisle (with a functional bascule bridge connecting things), a large terminal freight yard, operating ore dock and coal dumper, multi-track passenger terminal with electrified suburban service (serving at least six suburban stations with various platform configurations), Truc-train -- er -- piggyback terminal, a large steam/diesel engine terminal, two-and-three track main, a helper district to get trains to the upper level (the upper level was mainly a turnback loop, holdover tracks and helper wye, as this was an attic layout and things were getting close to the peak of the roof), branch lines, etc. All this in O scale too -- sweeeeeet! It was a pip, but had no basis in 'geographic reality' -- except Armstrong had used his vast knowledge of prototype railroading operation to design a railroad that would have been extremely "real-feeling" and rewarding to operate, in the right hands. And it would have made a GREAT Pennsy proto-freelanced layout, even though the big terminal would have been named "Easternport" or something as it didn't resemble anything the Pennsy really had. But then, model railroading is one big exercise in compromise and adjusting prototype reality to our space/talent/budget realities, isn't it? I *have* operated on *totally* freelanced layouts where, operationally, the feeling was very authentic even though there was no fixed geographic locale -- on one, the town names are based on the names of the owner's children (which I find a bit precious but had meaning to him -- and it was his layout). The realism has to do with how the sessions are conducted -- the movement of trains had purpose other than just to entertain the operators by seeing them rolling around. Directions were established via employee timetable, train orders and via signage on the fascia at stations -- even as a new operator, knowing the direction I was going or which way to route cars was never a problem ("once through the scene" layout design helped there, too). Freight and passenger trains were built in terminals and worked en route using "train work" handouts per train. The owner had studied prototype operations enough to understand what kinds of trains did what, what trains he needed based on his envisioned geographical setting, how to plan operation of mixed traffic efficiently using string diagrams, what trackage was required where to enable that operation to happen, the fact that part of the entertainment of operation is solving problems so he employed "situation cards" both for the session as a whole (i.e. summer camp train extras one session, potato rush requiring extra trains another session), and also cards to be drawn for individual trains (flat wheels requiring cutting out a car, brake test delay in a yard, hotboxes, bad locomotive coal requiring slower running, etc.). Model railroading friends that I have brought to these sessions have 'bailed out' of subsequent ones, as this type of operating requires more brainwork than they are willing to devote to what's really sophisticated playing with trains. It all comes down to one's expectations of the hobby. This is not to say that just seeing trains run around in circles is not a valid reason to have a layout or have people over to help do that, it's a matter of one's taste, as I said. The "bad" (my judgmental term) PRR layouts I mentioned were basically a means for the owners to orbit their HO scale collections, including unpainted brass -- how realistic! Any "operation" was done at the whim of the particular train operator, if the passenger train operator felt like making a station stop, he made it -- or not. Trains were built in the yards just on what the yard switcher operator (no yard conductors or switchmen) felt like putting together. No car cards or switchlist anything, just make it up as you go. As you can expect, this lead to some interesting situations. BUT -- this way of conducting things was the owners' decision, it gave them a thrill to see their equipment rolling around the unscenicked layout, rather than sitting on shelves or in boxes. That is model railroading to them, but as I learned more about actual train operations and how interesting it all is (or in my case, WAS), their mode of doing things became somewhat childish and pointless to me. But that's MY problem, not theirs. The odd thing is, these guys know a LOT about the prototype, it kind of baffled me why they operated their layouts as they did, maybe they felt setting up prototypical ops sessions was too much work. I didn't feel it was my place to ask, the guys were being kind enough to host a session, with refreshments and the like. I used to attend their sessions more as a comraderie/bull-shooting type of thing, rather than as a means of any real rewarding train operation. Also -- and this is key -- their layouts weren't designed and built with "real" operation in mind: they were mainly a collection of yards connected by double track main lines. But again, what they had and were doing with it gave them joy, so who was I to say that they are 'wrong'? My distaste for their lack of realistic operation is MY issue, and that's why I stopped attending those sessions. Sorry for the long post, as Mark Twain said "I would have written a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time" Doug Drew > ---------- > From: Jeff Warner > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:22 PM > To: Doug Drew > Cc: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating PRR layouts > > Doug: > > Regarding question 2 (below), I think there is one big advantaged to a > prototype (or semi-prototype) based layout versus a freelanced that you > didn't mention. Familarity with the general route can help with > operations. If I'm operating a PRR layout with Horseshoe Curve, I know > that if I'm headed toward it from Pittsburgh, I'm going East. From > Enola, it's west. The same could be said about smaller layouts like > mine which uses Enola and Baltimore at the two ends. 99% of the > operators know that Baltimore is south of Enola. It gives a new > operator a basis for direction and a way to generally orient himself you > do not get when it is a true freelanced railroad between Washington, > Lincoln, Jefferson, and Adams... It makes the operator, especially new > ones, feel more "comfortable" that he is in the right place and headed > the right direction... > > It may also depend on what Rick meant by "promote operation"... > > Jef > > >RT: 2. Do you think prototype modeling of the Pennsy or another > well-known > >prototype promotes operation over, say, a layout that's freelanced and > >equipment that's fictionalized? Certainly, we get to know each other > via > >Pennsy email lists... > > > >DD: I haven't seen any correlation. I've seen some REALLY BAD Pennsy > >layouts, and superlative freelanced ones. Again, it comes down to the > >individual, and how talented they are in taking prototype information and > >transferring it into their modeling and operation. I WILL say that PRR > >modelers certainly have an advantage over modelers of, say, the Yazoo and > >Mississippi Valley, in terms of the amount of material available from > which > >to gather operational details, photos of facilities or equipment for > >modeling, etc. Jerry's Keystone Crossings and Rob Schoenburg's web site > are > >fantastic resources, to name a couple. This particular chat list is also > a > >shining example of the great knowledge resource that exists in the heads > of > >a variety of PRR fans and modelers. In this case, the bigger and > >better-known the railroad, the more "knowledge resources" are available > to > >post. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] Re:Operations and Prototype Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:29:45 -0400 Nick, I don't know why you feel compelled to explain it. Last time I checked: 1) Model railroading is a hobby 2) First rule of this hobby is "It's my model railroad and ..." So, if somebody can't take a joke, they might as well be one. George Modeling (loosely) the PRR in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH area (1948-1957) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Question Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:55:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C322AC.2F00B280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would anyone out there in Pennsy Land have any photo's or data on = Franklin City, VA. and the Rail Line to this seaport I could use in an = up coming article for the Keystone magazine or a talk I have to give at = Home Coming Day at Greenbackville, Va. in October? Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret Retired Rail also leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Thank You all Very much!! ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C322AC.2F00B280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Would anyone out there in Pennsy Land have any photo's or data on = Franklin=20 City, VA. and the Rail Line to this seaport I could use in an up coming = article=20 for the Keystone magazine or a talk I have to give at Home Coming Day at = Greenbackville, Va. in October?
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret
Retired Rail also
 
=
 
Thank You all Very much!!
------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C322AC.2F00B280-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Al Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:02:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C322BD.D7420FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the assistance. I have Emailed the address you sent via = PRRTALK. Appreciate it very very much. Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C322BD.D7420FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for the assistance. I have Emailed the address you sent = via=20 PRRTALK. Appreciate it very very much.
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C322BD.D7420FA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:49:26 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] K4 No. 3768 List. What a surprise to turn the TV on this morning and see No. 3768 with full skirting. Was watching the Turner Classic Movie channel, which had there usual military movies for the Memorial Holiday weekend,and the movie STAGE DOOR CANTEEN starts. After a long list of credits and actors the movie starts with a scene at dusk and the 3768 at full throttle open with a RPO and heavy weight pullmans following,of which one was in the FOM. Although in B&W, it was great to see. Happy Holiday to all. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:49:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] K4 No. 3768 --part1_1d3.a6f19a9.2c025c26_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. What a surprise to turn the TV on this morning and see No. 3768 with full skirting. Was watching the Turner Classic Movie channel, which had there usual military movies for the Memorial Holiday weekend,and the movie STAGE DOOR CANTEEN starts. After a long list of credits and actors the movie starts with a scene at dusk and the 3768 at full throttle open with a RPO and heavy weight pullmans following,of which one was in the FOM. Although in B&W, it was great to see. Happy Holiday to all. Pat McKinney --part1_1d3.a6f19a9.2c025c26_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
      What a surprise to turn the TV on this mornin= g and see No. 3768 with full skirting. Was watching the Turner Classic Movie= channel, which had there usual military movies for the Memorial Holiday wee= kend,and the movie STAGE DOOR CANTEEN starts. After a long list of credits a= nd actors the movie starts with a scene at dusk and the 3768 at full throttl= e open with a RPO and heavy weight pullmans following,of which one was in th= e FOM. Although in B&W, it was great to see.
   Happy Holiday to all.

Pat McKinney --part1_1d3.a6f19a9.2c025c26_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:09:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Altoona-area photos From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, As someone pointed out last week, the PRR is dead, but I just can't help myself. Here is the url for some photos I took last week of Altoona and environs. For those who are just too darn busy, the photos are fairly good quality and may take some time to download. Caveat Emptor. URL: steveprosser.com (click on the Keystone) Best, Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 21:49:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Penske Racing From: Jerry Britton During slow times on the list, we have a history of sharing the triumphs and tribulations of our list members. Today congratulations go out to list lurker Jerry Breon. Jerry is involved with the Penske Racing Team, which won and placed in the Indy 500 today. If my recollection is correct, this is actually their third straight win (two drivers) and the second time in three years they have finished 1-2. Congrats, Jerry! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR whistle on Ebay I just wanted to pass this on to the list. There is a PRR steam whistle up for bid on ebay. It's a three chime whistle but I don't know what type of locomotive it came off of. The owner does list the serial numbers that are on it's base. Last time I looked, the bid was at $1600.00. Here the item number if anyone wants to check it out. item# 2175090680 Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR whistle on Ebay Dave, List, I have been watching it all week long. Day by day, little by little it is nearing the aprox value people are willing to pay for these. I have a Pennsy 3 Chime from a K4 and M1 (both loco numbers, 5343 and 6998 are stamped). Comparing mine with the one on ebay and with his casting numbers, they are a bit different. The whistle itself is the same, it is the Valve and Mount angle that is a angled different. I could be wrong but the eBay whistle could be from a T1, but that is just a guess. I am out of the running. Just can't afford another...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR whistle on Ebay Gary & list....... I was amazed that the opening bid was $49.00. I don't think the owner knew what he had. When I first saw the whistle up for bid, I called a few PRRT&HS members on what a PRR whistle is worth. I got a lot of different answers. Some said "it depends on what type of locomotive it came off of". Most said; "it depends on what you are willing to pay." And you can never tell with an Ebay auction. My favorite whistle is the high pitch whistle of an I1. Maybe one day, I'll find one at a train show for $50 bucks.:-) Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 08:22:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Hey guys and gals It isn't just operating steam programs that have seen big increases in insurance. The Galveston Railroad Museum's liability insurance has going up something on the order of 20 to 25% for the last two years. And the only thing we do in the way of operations is to give cab rides in our diesel switcher to Boy Scouts enrolled in our merit badge program. It has been said before, and I suspect is probably true - a lot of the increased premiums are a direct result of the insurance companies not making as large a profit off their investments as they did a few years ago. Any insurance agents in the group care to chime in on this? Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Bennett Levin" >To: "John Frantz" , >Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit >Date: Fri, 23 May, 2003, 18:50 > > Insurance costs have more than doubled in the last two years. We have taken > steps to limit our risks and have agreed to assume more financial > responsibility where we believed it to be prudent. However, we now also > carry higher limits on our liability coverage because of all of the > aggressive lawyers that spam your TV sets. That is the one reason we have a > strict "No Visitor" policy at our facility. > > Those who visited during the convention most likely had a once in a lifetime > opportunity. We thought long and hard before saying, "Yes". Thank Steve > Agostini for keeping the battry charged in his digital camera. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Frantz" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > > >> List, >> >> This mostly addressed towards bennet. I realise that >> operating diesels is a different game in some respects to >> steam. Since you are obviously surviving though, how are >> you handling the insurance situation? Post 9-11 poloicies >> have forced you to obtain a poassenger manifest, but what >> else is involved for you to keep the Juniata Terminal >> Company and sepcifically the E-8 program alive? >> >> I may be looking for a hard answer, but since you're an >> insider, a different pespective would be appreciated. >> >> -John >> >> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:23:25 -0400 Well, I'm not an insurance agent, but I do work for a local government pool in New Hampshire. A 20-25 percent increase is mild compared to some. It is clearly a factor of investments gone cold. In addition, we cover the majority of first responders in NH. Our re-insurance rates (The amount of liability we can get others, like Lloyd's of London, to assume has been halved. They also want us to have higher retention of exposure, so before they were willing to take everything over $350,000 up to $2M. Now the floor is $1 or $2M with some of them.) got so bad, a group of governmental pools across the country formed their own re-insurance program. So, as a previous post said, they are in it for the stock holders and they need a certain amount of return to retain the investors. A large company left the municipal market here in NH last year and another one is leaving this year. There are other issues at work. There is probably an element of unfamiliarity with steam and tourist operations by the rating staff at the carriers. We have gotten quotes from carriers that clearly indicated to us that they had no clue of the operations and therefore the exposures they would be covering. In addition, sometimes they don't want the business and set rates that an insured won't take, and if they do, it's more money for the insurer. No altruism here, rail fans, pure bottom line! Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" To: Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > Hey guys and gals > > It isn't just operating steam programs that have seen big increases in > insurance. The Galveston Railroad Museum's liability insurance has going up > something on the order of 20 to 25% for the last two years. And the only > thing we do in the way of operations is to give cab rides in our diesel > switcher to Boy Scouts enrolled in our merit badge program. > > It has been said before, and I suspect is probably true - a lot of the > increased premiums are a direct result of the insurance companies not making > as large a profit off their investments as they did a few years ago. Any > insurance agents in the group care to chime in on this? > > > > Don Harper > Marine Lab > Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------- > >From: "Bennett Levin" > >To: "John Frantz" , > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > >Date: Fri, 23 May, 2003, 18:50 > > > > > Insurance costs have more than doubled in the last two years. We have taken > > steps to limit our risks and have agreed to assume more financial > > responsibility where we believed it to be prudent. However, we now also > > carry higher limits on our liability coverage because of all of the > > aggressive lawyers that spam your TV sets. That is the one reason we have a > > strict "No Visitor" policy at our facility. > > > > Those who visited during the convention most likely had a once in a lifetime > > opportunity. We thought long and hard before saying, "Yes". Thank Steve > > Agostini for keeping the battry charged in his digital camera. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Frantz" > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > > > > > >> List, > >> > >> This mostly addressed towards bennet. I realise that > >> operating diesels is a different game in some respects to > >> steam. Since you are obviously surviving though, how are > >> you handling the insurance situation? Post 9-11 poloicies > >> have forced you to obtain a poassenger manifest, but what > >> else is involved for you to keep the Juniata Terminal > >> Company and sepcifically the E-8 program alive? > >> > >> I may be looking for a hard answer, but since you're an > >> insider, a different pespective would be appreciated. > >> > >> -John > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Memorial Day Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:51:34 -0400 Gents, and list, I hope that everyone will ahve a safe and happy Memorial day. But, let us also remember the fallen comrades of wars gone past, including the many railroaders that joined up in arms or kept service to the rails running smooth during times of war and peace. We owe ourselves to their noble cause. Have a good holiday. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:14:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] red white and blue graffiti Among the 50 trains in 9 hours we shot at Rochelle, Illinois, last Thursday, was this UP United Way loco---colors right for Memorial Day! See: www.fleetofmodernism.com/upunitedway.jpg Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:34:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Is it not possible to run mainline steam under the auspices of existing passenger railroads? Amtrak for one, if they will do it; or commuter carriers (such as the trips on NJ Transit five years ago or so to Port Jervis, the problem was they lost money); or regionals who may have their own coverage (e.g. Susquehanna - who runs their own mainline steam on occasion). I suspect some or all of these are open to proposals, but need good assurance that the sponsoring group can bring it off without economic or PR disaster. If experienced entrepreneur Ross Rowland couldn't make money in the New York market, you can't blame the railroads for being careful. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:51:25 -0400 John, The problem is that each carrier's insurance policy clearly states what is covered and normally specifically excludes "excursions" or "passenger extras". When such are operated, a "rider" to the policy has to be issued to cover the extraordinary operation, so you're right back where you started from. This subject was brought up by a fairly large regional freight carrier dropping its steam excursions due to insurance costs. Now, if you could get a state-owned carrier to hide behind sovereign immunity.........................??????????????????? Naaaaah, the trial lawyers would never let them get by with it. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit > Is it not possible to run mainline steam under the auspices of > existing passenger railroads? Amtrak for one, if they will do it; or > commuter carriers (such as the trips on NJ Transit five years ago or > so to Port Jervis, the problem was they lost money); or regionals > who may have their own coverage (e.g. Susquehanna - who runs > their own mainline steam on occasion). I suspect some or all of > these are open to proposals, but need good assurance that the > sponsoring group can bring it off without economic or PR disaster. > If experienced entrepreneur Ross Rowland couldn't make money in > the New York market, you can't blame the railroads for being > careful. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:22:10 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale PRR F7 Antenna Project Hi Everyone, The following 2 photo links should tell you how I have spent my holiday weekend. If you have ever wondered what REALLY happens to the antenna conduit at the rear end of F Units, keep reading. Rear shots of F Units are difficult to find, but rear shots that show the antenna detail are even more rare. I have a few of them, including PRR photo E16592 of F3 9501-a and 9501-b, which is available from the Hagley Museum. http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/index.html I wanted to add some more details to my S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html F7 A-B-A set. Since I had the parts and photos, it was a project that was going to get done. I did have to get the stanchions for the rear wall cast though. It started back in January when I began making my drilling fixture. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F3_fixture.jpg Once that was completed, I could drill all of the roof holes in about 10 minutes. It took LOTS of photo research and triple checking before I could be happy with where to drill the holes in the fixture. I drove myself crazy before I just said enough already! I have come to the following conclusions as to where the stanchions are located, and is my opinion based from my research. I don't think the stanchions are in the same place, or are spaced the same for F3, F7 & F9. I will email you with the dimensions I used in real inches if you want. I do know that the conduit enters the cab above the engineer differently between the F3 and F7. The section that goes along the rear appears to be a flexible cord, and eventually attaches to the rear truck on the engineer's side somehow. Here are the 2 links to my model photos: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_S_Scale_F7_1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_S_Scale_F7_2.jpg I left them unpainted to highlight the detail. I will be painting them later tonight. I am particularly proud that there are only 3 pieces of wire used per A unit. The piece I formed that goes down the back wall and continues along the side is one piece of wire. The other 2 are on the roof. I can do this because I used phosphor brass wire. It takes the abuse the antennas will get a lot better then brass wire. I can also straighten and bend the wire again in a small area without it breaking. I will post more photos when I get it weathered. If you are still reading this, I have a question. Should I tape off the grills to weather the unit? What happens when you dull coat stainless steel? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:43:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Gregg says that carriers' insurance policies generally exclude excursions or special trains; can this really be true for operating passenger railroads? Amtrak and the commuter agencies run (diesel) special excursions all the time. Maybe the problem is with steam, rather than special moves per se? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Insurance - A Proposal Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:01:10 -0400 All, I have been following with interest the discussion regarding the impact of insurance costs on museums, steam excursions, and related concerns. Why don't all these various groups band together and negotiate with the insurance vendors as a united group? While I can understand the individual groups may be met with reluctance and non-comprehension, as a total group the potential business ($$) might approach numbers that would cause insurance underwriters to sit up and take more notice. Plus the group could be instrumental in promoting safety standards and compliance, both of which would make underwriters more willing to do business. This would take some real leadership within the museum and excursion community, but it might provide a means to address the problem. Don ------------------------------------------ Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net All outgoing email and attachments checked with Norton Anti-Virus ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:01:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Insurance - A Proposal All, I have been following with interest the discussion regarding the impact of insurance costs on museums, steam excursions, and related concerns. Why don't all these various groups band together and negotiate with the insurance vendors as a united group? While I can understand the individual groups may be met with reluctance and non-comprehension, as a total group the potential business ($$) might approach numbers that would cause insurance underwriters to sit up and take more notice. Plus the group could be instrumental in promoting safety standards and compliance, both of which would make underwriters more willing to do business. This would take some real leadership within the museum and excursion community, but it might provide a means to address the problem. Don ------------------------------------------ Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net All outgoing email and attachments checked with Norton Anti-Virus ------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:32:05 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR -Talk PRR Station at Reading, Pa From: Beth Caples Is the station at Reading still standing? I am going to be on vacation in June so I want to photograph it if possible. Also I will be traveling on I-70 through Ill., Ind.,Ohio. Is there any PRR stuff left out there that isn't too far off the beaten path? (I will have the whole family with me so it will have to be all short side trips that the "wife" will tolerate) Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Insurance - A Proposal Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:43:21 -0400 Don, There is an organization called the Tourist Railway Association, http://www.traininc.org which has attempted to offer insurance to such groups and indeed used to have several insurance companies as assocaite members. So, it's so of a case of "been there, done that." John, Concerning passenger operations by commuter railroads and Amtrak, I am relative sure they would need a "rider" to their policies if they operated a special train on trackage other than that on which they usually operated scheduled service, although Amtrak's insurance may cover all lines of the railroads hosting Amtrak. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." To: "PRR Talk (E-mail)" ; "PRR-FAX (E-mail)" Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Insurance - A Proposal > All, > > I have been following with interest the discussion regarding the impact of > insurance costs on museums, steam excursions, and related concerns. Why > don't all these various groups band together and negotiate with the > insurance vendors as a united group? While I can understand the individual > groups may be met with reluctance and non-comprehension, as a total group > the potential business ($$) might approach numbers that would cause > insurance underwriters to sit up and take more notice. Plus the group could > be instrumental in promoting safety standards and compliance, both of which > would make underwriters more willing to do business. > > This would take some real leadership within the museum and excursion > community, but it might provide a means to address the problem. > > Don > > ------------------------------------------ > Don E. Anderson, Jr. > Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net > All outgoing email and attachments > checked with Norton Anti-Virus > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:52:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR -Talk PRR Station at Reading, Pa --part1_130.20355163.2c043af3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pennsy station at Reading, PA was torn down as was the Reading Company's Outer Station. Both station locations are readily accessible but the only trace is the Reading's Outer Station driveway. The Reading Company's downtown station on 5th Street is intact but boarded up and disused. Chris B #1918 --part1_130.20355163.2c043af3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Pennsy station at Reading, PA was torn down as was= the Reading Company's Outer Station.  Both station locations are readi= ly accessible but the only trace is the Reading's Outer Station driveway.
The Reading Company's downtown station on 5th Street is intact but boarded u= p and disused.

Chris B #1918 --part1_130.20355163.2c043af3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:52:59 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Penn Texas via/around Dayton Many thanks to Dan Cupper for his history below of the Penn Texas. It ran through Dayton and Xenia (at least in later years), and was "famous" around there for never being photographed in steam. This is finally explained by the fact its name changed to Penn Texas in December 1948, and dieselization of Lines West mainline passenger trains was under way by then. Still needed - verification whether the Penn Texas ran "around Dayton" on the Bradford line at first. Back then, some Blue Ribbon trains transiting western Ohio avoided the high grades between New Paris and Xenia and used the low grade freight routing via New Paris - Bradford - Urbana - Columbus. We know that, by the 1960's, all remaining passenger trains ran via Dayton. In this era, it seemed the Penn Texas would be handling more headend equipment and less sleepers than the Spirit of St. Louis, whose headend was mostly a working RPO. In a message dated 5/22/03 6:06:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: The Penn Texas > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:52:56 -0400 > > > --------------030400030808070909040501 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Greetings to Ron, Jerry and the List: > > Through PRR service to Texas and Mexico began on July 7, 1946, with much > fanfare and the establishment of a through train named the Sunshine > Special (which was the name of an existing MP train), which ran via > PRR-St. Louis-MP-Dallas-T&P-Laredo-NdeM. It included: > -- a sleeper-lounge NY-Dallas-Fort Worth > -- coaches NY-DFW, NY-San Anton, Wash.-Houston > -- sleepers NY-Houston, NY-San Anton., NY-El Paso, NY-Mexico City, > Wash.-Dallas, and Wash.-Houston. > -- diner NY-DFW > > It operated as Trains 3 and 4 on PRR and, as mentioned, assumed the > existing name of the MP train. In April 1948, it ceased being a through > train and the coaches, lounge and diner stopped running through to MP, > but the sleepers continued to provide through service. Coach pasengers > could still connect, but they had to change at St. Louis. On PRR, the > train continued to carry the name Sunshine Special. > > In summer 1948, the connection was changed to meet MP's Texas Eagle > (MP's Sunshine Special continued to operate under that name on MP). On > PRR, the train name was changed to Texas Eagle (still numbered 3 and 4 > on PRR). Even though PRR used the MP train name, only the sleepers > continued to run through, and no through train was re-established. > > PRR subsequently renamed its train the Penn Texas by December of that > same year (still numbered PRR 3 and 4). The Texas Eagle still ran on the > MP and the two trains continued to exchange sleepers, but again, no > through train service was reinstated. > > Through Texas-NY sleeper service via MP-PRR finally ended in 1961, but > the Penn Texas, still carrying numbers 3 and 4, continued to run right > up into Penn Central days, and still provided a change-trains connection > with MP's Texas Eagle at St. Louis. The Penn Texas was finally > discontinued in late June 1970, less than a year before the coming of > Amtrak. > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:52:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Penn Texas via/around Dayton --part1_1aa.15118150.2c043b1b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to Dan Cupper for his history below of the Penn Texas. It ran through Dayton and Xenia (at least in later years), and was "famous" around there for never being photographed in steam. This is finally explained by the fact its name changed to Penn Texas in December 1948, and dieselization of Lines West mainline passenger trains was under way by then. Still needed - verification whether the Penn Texas ran "around Dayton" on the Bradford line at first. Back then, some Blue Ribbon trains transiting western Ohio avoided the high grades between New Paris and Xenia and used the low grade freight routing via New Paris - Bradford - Urbana - Columbus. We know that, by the 1960's, all remaining passenger trains ran via Dayton. In this era, it seemed the Penn Texas would be handling more headend equipment and less sleepers than the Spirit of St. Louis, whose headend was mostly a working RPO. In a message dated 5/22/03 6:06:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: The Penn Texas > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:52:56 -0400 > > > --------------030400030808070909040501 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Greetings to Ron, Jerry and the List: > > Through PRR service to Texas and Mexico began on July 7, 1946, with much > fanfare and the establishment of a through train named the Sunshine > Special (which was the name of an existing MP train), which ran via > PRR-St. Louis-MP-Dallas-T&P-Laredo-NdeM. It included: > -- a sleeper-lounge NY-Dallas-Fort Worth > -- coaches NY-DFW, NY-San Anton, Wash.-Houston > -- sleepers NY-Houston, NY-San Anton., NY-El Paso, NY-Mexico City, > Wash.-Dallas, and Wash.-Houston. > -- diner NY-DFW > > It operated as Trains 3 and 4 on PRR and, as mentioned, assumed the > existing name of the MP train. In April 1948, it ceased being a through > train and the coaches, lounge and diner stopped running through to MP, > but the sleepers continued to provide through service. Coach pasengers > could still connect, but they had to change at St. Louis. On PRR, the > train continued to carry the name Sunshine Special. > > In summer 1948, the connection was changed to meet MP's Texas Eagle > (MP's Sunshine Special continued to operate under that name on MP). On > PRR, the train name was changed to Texas Eagle (still numbered 3 and 4 > on PRR). Even though PRR used the MP train name, only the sleepers > continued to run through, and no through train was re-established. > > PRR subsequently renamed its train the Penn Texas by December of that > same year (still numbered PRR 3 and 4). The Texas Eagle still ran on the > MP and the two trains continued to exchange sleepers, but again, no > through train service was reinstated. > > Through Texas-NY sleeper service via MP-PRR finally ended in 1961, but > the Penn Texas, still carrying numbers 3 and 4, continued to run right > up into Penn Central days, and still provided a change-trains connection > with MP's Texas Eagle at St. Louis. The Penn Texas was finally > discontinued in late June 1970, less than a year before the coming of > Amtrak. > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1aa.15118150.2c043b1b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many thanks to Dan Cupper for his history below of the= Penn Texas.  It ran through Dayton and Xenia (at least in later years)= , and was "famous" around there for never being photographed in steam. = This is finally explained by the fact its name changed to Penn Texas in Dec= ember 1948, and dieselization of Lines West mainline passenger trains was un= der way by then.

Still needed - verification whether the Penn Texas ran "around Dayton" on th= e Bradford line at first.  Back then, some Blue Ribbon trains transitin= g western Ohio avoided the high grades between New Paris and Xenia and used=20= the low grade freight routing via New Paris - Bradford - Urbana - Columbus.<= BR>
We know that, by the 1960's, all remaining passenger trains ran via Dayton.&= nbsp; In this era, it seemed the Penn Texas would be handling more headend e= quipment and less sleepers than the Spirit of St. Louis, whose headend was m= ostly a working RPO.

In a message dated 5/22/03 6:06:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.c= om writes:


Subject: The Penn Texas
From: "Dan Cupper" <cupper@att.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:52:56 -0400


--------------030400030808070909040501
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings to Ron, Jerry and the List:

Through PRR service to Texas and Mexico began on July 7, 1946, with much fanfare and the establishment of a through train named the Sunshine
Special (which was the name of an existing MP train), which ran via
PRR-St. Louis-MP-Dallas-T&P-Laredo-NdeM. It included:
-- a sleeper-lounge NY-Dallas-Fort Worth
-- coaches NY-DFW, NY-San Anton, Wash.-Houston
-- sleepers NY-Houston, NY-San Anton., NY-El Paso, NY-Mexico City,
Wash.-Dallas, and Wash.-Houston.
-- diner NY-DFW

It operated as Trains 3 and 4 on PRR and, as mentioned, assumed the
existing name of the MP train. In April 1948, it ceased being a through
train and the coaches, lounge and diner stopped running through to MP,
but the sleepers continued to provide through service. Coach pasengers
could still connect, but they had to change at St. Louis. On PRR, the
train continued to carry the name Sunshine Special.

In summer 1948, the connection was changed to meet MP's Texas Eagle
(MP's Sunshine Special continued to operate under that name on MP). On
PRR, the train name was changed to Texas Eagle (still numbered 3 and 4
on PRR). Even though PRR used the MP train name, only the sleepers
continued to run through, and no through train was re-established.

PRR subsequently renamed its train the Penn Texas by December of that
same year (still numbered PRR 3 and 4). The Texas Eagle still ran on the MP and the two trains continued to exchange sleepers, but again, no
through train service was reinstated.

Through Texas-NY sleeper service via MP-PRR finally ended in 1961, but
the Penn Texas, still carrying numbers 3 and 4, continued to run right
up into Penn Central days, and still provided a change-trains connection with MP's Texas Eagle at St. Louis. The Penn Texas was finally
discontinued in late June 1970, less than a year before the coming of
Amtrak.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.




Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1aa.15118150.2c043b1b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:53:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: [IllinoisCentral] Re: Signals on the Matoon Decatur --part1_192.1ae0bb4b.2c043b1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/22/03 5:11:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, iwbaugh@insightbb.com writes: > Rick: > > > > This came to me from an Illinois Central discussion list. Knowing that you > were a Pennsylvania knowledgeable person, I though I would ask you. > > > > Ivan > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: niceoneace@aol.com [mailto:niceoneace@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:48 PM > To: illinoiscentral@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [IllinoisCentral] Re: Signals on the Matoon Decatur main > > > > Hi list, > > Thought I would ask this again, as it has been a while. Since the Pennsy > > ran over the west end of the line from matoon, IL into Decatur, IL and it > was/is > signaled, what TYPE of signals are/were used? POsition light, triangle > color, or > vertical color? > > ANY help appreciated!! > > Thanks! > Kelley D. Ellison > > > Ivan, I do believe the PRR Peoria Branch used several miles' IC trackage rights to go through Decatur. On this part of a run, a westbound PRR train (Terre Haute to Peoria) entered IC tracks south of Decatur (I'm assuming this is the Matoon-Decatur line referred to) and running north through town, crossing the Wabash main near the shops in doing so. It's well-known among Pennsy fans that the Peoria Branch was a big-time loser, with poor construction, light bridges, and lots of trackage rights on pieces of other railroads. Having visited the IC crossing of the WAB in Decatur, I know of no Pennsy-type signaling in the area (I would be glad of any corrections). Thus, the question is not "what kind of Pennsy signaling did the IC encounter when on tracks shared with the PRR?". Instead, the question is "how many different signaling systems (and rulebooks) did the few PRR trains encounter due to trackage rights on various roads that got them across Illinois and into Peoria"? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_192.1ae0bb4b.2c043b1e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/22/03 5:11:11 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, iwbaugh@insightbb.com writes:


Rick:

This came to me from an Illi= nois Central discussion list. Knowing that you were a Pennsylvania knowledge= able person, I though I would ask you.



Ivan

-----Original Message-----<= BR> From: niceoneace@aol.com [mailto:niceoneace@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:48 PM
To: illinoiscentral@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [IllinoisCentral] Re: Signals on the Matoon Decatur main=



Hi list,

    Thought I would ask this again, as it has been a while. S= ince the Pennsy
ran over the west end of the line from matoon, IL in= to Decatur, IL and it was/is
signaled, what TYPE of signals are/were used? POsition light, triangle color= , or
vertical color?

ANY help appreciated!!

Thanks!
Kelley D. Ellison




Ivan,

I do believe the PRR Peoria Branch used several miles' IC trackage rights to= go through Decatur.  On this part of a run, a westbound PRR train (Ter= re Haute to Peoria) entered IC tracks south of Decatur (I'm assuming this is= the Matoon-Decatur line referred to) and running north through town, crossi= ng the Wabash main near the shops in doing so.

It's well-known among Pennsy fans that the Peoria Branch was a big-time lose= r, with poor construction, light bridges, and lots of trackage rights on pie= ces of other railroads.  Having visited the IC crossing of the WAB in D= ecatur, I know of no Pennsy-type signaling in the area (I would be glad of a= ny corrections).

Thus, the question is not "what kind of Pennsy signaling did the IC encounte= r when on tracks shared with the PRR?".  Instead, the question is "how=20= many different signaling systems (and rulebooks) did the few PRR trains enco= unter due to trackage rights on various roads that got them across Illinois=20= and into Peoria"?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_192.1ae0bb4b.2c043b1e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:09:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Modeling signals A while back I asked some questions about modeling position light signals; I'm getting close to trying to install a position-light signal or two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a control panel before trying to simulate interlockings. This is getting closer to reality . Meanwhile: There's a characteristic of signals that I never thought much about until now. When a signal aspect changes, does the signal change to the new indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period when the signal is dark? Does this vary with different systems, e.g. automatic block signals vs interlocking signals for example, or with the type of interlocking machine perhaps? What brought this up was, a week or so ago I was riding a NJ Transit commuter train out of New York. I was sitting on the left side near the back of the train, and, as we proceeded through the long left curve at Harrison, I could clearly see the position-light signal ahead as my train passed beneath the signal bridge. (This was probably the westward home signal at Dock interlocking.) The signal changed from medium clear to stop, as expected; but it went dark for a loooong time, I would say about 3/4 of a second. This may not sound like much, but it sure is noticeable. Is this typical or some kind of aberration? Even if the signal changes "instantaneously," is there a noticeable delay as the new lamps come to full brightness? If this is the case, does a lamp previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center lamp in a position light target) stay on throughout, or does it go dark briefly too? Modeling this kind of behavior accurately might lead to some pretty hairy electronics. I guess the hard way to do this would be to go out and watch lots of signals in action! But maybe it has changed over time, too. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] S Scale PRR F7 Antenna Project Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:19:36 -0400 Bill: Yes, I would like the dimensions for stanchion location for the f3s f7s etc. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "S Trains" ; "S Scale List" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 6:22 PM Subject: [PRR] S Scale PRR F7 Antenna Project > Hi Everyone, > > The following 2 photo links should tell you how I have spent my holiday > weekend. If you have ever wondered what REALLY happens to the antenna > conduit at the rear end of F Units, keep reading. Rear shots of F Units are > difficult to find, but rear shots that show the antenna detail are even more > rare. I have a few of them, including PRR photo E16592 of F3 9501-a and > 9501-b, which is available from the Hagley Museum. > http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/index.html > > I wanted to add some more details to my S Helper Service > http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html F7 A-B-A set. Since I had the parts > and photos, it was a project that was going to get done. I did have to get > the stanchions for the rear wall cast though. It started back in January > when I began making my drilling fixture. > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F3_fixture.jpg Once that was > completed, I could drill all of the roof holes in about 10 minutes. It took > LOTS of photo research and triple checking before I could be happy with > where to drill the holes in the fixture. I drove myself crazy before I just > said enough already! > > I have come to the following conclusions as to where the stanchions are > located, and is my opinion based from my research. I don't think the > stanchions are in the same place, or are spaced the same for F3, F7 & F9. I > will email you with the dimensions I used in real inches if you want. I do > know that the conduit enters the cab above the engineer differently between > the F3 and F7. The section that goes along the rear appears to be a flexible > cord, and eventually attaches to the rear truck on the engineer's side > somehow. > > Here are the 2 links to my model photos: > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_S_Scale_F7_1.jpg > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_S_Scale_F7_2.jpg > > I left them unpainted to highlight the detail. I will be painting them later > tonight. I am particularly proud that there are only 3 pieces of wire used > per A unit. The piece I formed that goes down the back wall and continues > along the side is one piece of wire. The other 2 are on the roof. I can do > this because I used phosphor brass wire. It takes the abuse the antennas > will get a lot better then brass wire. I can also straighten and bend the > wire again in a small area without it breaking. > > I will post more photos when I get it weathered. If you are still reading > this, I have a question. Should I tape off the grills to weather the unit? > What happens when you dull coat stainless steel? > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ask the man who owns one! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:24:43 -0400 As the Packard commercial once said, "Ask an Man who owns one"! The NRHS convention to the Grand Canyon was a Steam "AMTRAK" train. I am not sure how Doyle operates his equipment in the NW, but as far as I know, and I have run a few excursions ,all major freight carriers require any excursion (Steam or Diesel) to operater as AMTRAK "Specials for several reasons all having to do liability. Here goes: 1. The freights can filter out the "men from the boys" by using the Amtrak operating agreements to preclude any passenger operations on their lines other than those run by Amtrak. 2. Amtrak operated trains shield freight carriers from liability as a result of the "liability cap" as well as the underlying insurance. No excursion operator can buy that amount of coverage in the marketplace especially for limited operations. The economics of the coverage forces excursion operations to the only real source of coverage which is AMTRAK, and when faced with the "franchise" issues, Amtrak becomes the sole source for your "pleasure". If there were no provisions in the Amtrak act about accessibility and liability, you would not see any excursions on Mainline carriers. The trips to Port Jervis were a-typical because most commuter authorites do not have lines of that length and nature. (Now for Pennsy content) I would suspect that while NS will ferry the K4 to Tyrone or Cresson, the real operation of the engine will wind up on RJ Corman from Cresson to Clearfield to Keating or the Nittany and Bald Eagle. Remember the K4 will only haul a limited number of cars with a limited total seating capacity. That inturns means limited revenue. The E's have done 18 cars, the K4 will be lucky to do half of that. So if the N&BE or R.J. Corman will except $10mill in coverage, rather than the $200mil required by NS or CSX, insurance might be not affordable but obtainable. As an example the premium for the seven short Clearfield cluster trips last October with 5 cars not exceeding 25MPH and 25 miles one way was $18,000. This is another reason that some revenue mechanism has to be devised to suppliment the on-board ridership ticket sales. You cannot charge enough with the limited seating available to pay for the insurance. Sooner or later the trackside photographers will have to find a way to help underwrite their pleasure also. Frankly I was quite impressed that on the Altoona Railfest trips so many of the great trackside and chasing Cyclops' at least had the sense and decency to ride one trip around the 'curve. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:04:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ask the man who owns one! Bemmet said, "The trips to Port Jervis were a-typical because most commuter authorites do not have lines of that length and nature." ++++++ And actually, most of that line was Conrail-owned (now NS), with NJT trackage rights (even if NJT dispatches the line, Conrail owned it I think.) So, similarly, NJT could run a K4 trip from Newark to Trenton and back, using their trackage rights on the Corridor, no? (With Railroaders Museum sponsorship, of course.) Now, wouldn't that be something! And maybe SEPTA could pick it up at Trenton . . . Newark to Newark even!! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:08:12 -0700 On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are several shots taken with a train passing a signal and the signal going from proceed to stop. On these signals, mostly in electrified territory (for what that's worth), the change in the lights is pretty much instantaneous. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:09 AM Subject: [PRR] Modeling signals > A while back I asked some questions about modeling position light > signals; I'm getting close to trying to install a position-light signal or > two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a control panel before > trying to simulate interlockings. This is getting closer to reality . > Meanwhile: > > There's a characteristic of signals that I never thought much about > until now. > > When a signal aspect changes, does the signal change to the new > indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period when the signal > is dark? Does this vary with different systems, e.g. automatic > block signals vs interlocking signals for example, or with the type > of interlocking machine perhaps? > > What brought this up was, a week or so ago I was riding a NJ > Transit commuter train out of New York. I was sitting on the left > side near the back of the train, and, as we proceeded through the > long left curve at Harrison, I could clearly see the position-light > signal ahead as my train passed beneath the signal bridge. (This > was probably the westward home signal at Dock interlocking.) > > The signal changed from medium clear to stop, as expected; but it > went dark for a loooong time, I would say about 3/4 of a second. > This may not sound like much, but it sure is noticeable. > > Is this typical or some kind of aberration? Even if the signal > changes "instantaneously," is there a noticeable delay as the new > lamps come to full brightness? If this is the case, does a lamp > previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center lamp in a position > light target) stay on throughout, or does it go dark briefly too? > Modeling this kind of behavior accurately might lead to some pretty > hairy electronics. > > I guess the hard way to do this would be to go out and watch lots > of signals in action! But maybe it has changed over time, too. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:08:35 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] John, Not far off I-70, a bit East of Columbus OH, is Newark, where the original PRR station still stands in excellent condition as bank or other commercial building. I do not have an address but it is in the city center area. A bit further East on the old Panhandle Division is Dennison, OH, where the original PRR station has been turned into a museum. see this link http://www.neohiotravel.com/Twincity/dennison.htm Dennison once had a fairly large PRR yard- long gone. If you are traveling near there on May 31, you may wish to take a look at the steam loco #6325 a 4-8-4 on its last excursion. It travels from Dennison to Newark departing Dennison at 8:30 am, I think. http://www.ocsteam.com/excursions.html Hope this helps. Tom Hayden At 11:55 PM 05/26/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Subject: PRR -Talk PRR Station at Reading, Pa >From: "Beth Caples" >Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:32:05 -0600 > >Is the station at Reading still standing? I am going to be on vacation in >June so I want to photograph it if possible. >Also I will be traveling on I-70 through Ill., Ind.,Ohio. Is there any >PRR stuff left out there that isn't too far off the beaten path? (I will >have the whole family with me so it will have to be all short side trips >that the "wife" will tolerate) >Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:09:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Insurance - A Proposal From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I contacted the Association of Railway Museums and suggested group insurance. I received no reply ( which really bugs me). There has to be some kind of group buying power that will bring prices down somewhat. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." >To: "PRR Talk (E-mail)" , "PRR-FAX (E-mail)" >Subject: [PRR] Insurance - A Proposal >Date: Mon, 26 May, 2003, 20:01 > > All, > > I have been following with interest the discussion regarding the impact of > insurance costs on museums, steam excursions, and related concerns. Why > don't all these various groups band together and negotiate with the > insurance vendors as a united group? While I can understand the individual > groups may be met with reluctance and non-comprehension, as a total group > the potential business ($$) might approach numbers that would cause > insurance underwriters to sit up and take more notice. Plus the group could > be instrumental in promoting safety standards and compliance, both of which > would make underwriters more willing to do business. > > This would take some real leadership within the museum and excursion > community, but it might provide a means to address the problem. > > Don > > ------------------------------------------ > Don E. Anderson, Jr. > Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net > All outgoing email and attachments > checked with Norton Anti-Virus > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:13:46 -0700 You mean, like the German Plandampfs? Not in this country. Amtrak would require their engineers on regularly scheduled passenger trains, insurance would still be stupidly high, and the freight roads would have one more reason to hate Amtrak. A commuter line might be better, but didn't those C&O 612 trips out east bomb due to low ridership? Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 12:34 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating steam takes a big hit Is it not possible to run mainline steam under the auspices of existing passenger railroads? Amtrak for one, if they will do it; or commuter carriers (such as the trips on NJ Transit five years ago or so to Port Jervis, the problem was they lost money); or regionals who may have their own coverage (e.g. Susquehanna - who runs their own mainline steam on occasion). I suspect some or all of these are open to proposals, but need good assurance that the sponsoring group can bring it off without economic or PR disaster. If experienced entrepreneur Ross Rowland couldn't make money in the New York market, you can't blame the railroads for being careful. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trip insurance Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:27:23 +0000 I think we are missing some key facts in our frustration. 1. The odds of a serious mishap with a steam engine far outweigh those of a diesel. 2. The consists of steam excursions are usually privately owned equipment of dubious maintenance. 3. None of it is newer than 60 years old and some of it is approaching 80 years old or longer. How would you like to be an insurnace company approached by say a group that wanted to charter 1930 busses and cars for a field outing and was going to use the Interstate system to get there? How many breakdowns or potential disasters do you see occurring? I would run in a heartbeat or charge them exorbitant fees to be sure I don't wind up on the short end. We all want to see 1361 under steam and preferably on the PRR trackage. I doubt I will ever live to see it however. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling signals Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:28:43 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32464.A8592590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John, When I used to go watch things around Port Perry and PG tower, the change from one aspect to another was quite fast; it appeared to be a minute fraction of a second. Elden -----Original Message----- From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:08 AM To: bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are several shots taken with a train passing a signal and the signal going from proceed to stop. On these signals, mostly in electrified territory (for what that's worth), the change in the lights is pretty much instantaneous. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:09 AM Subject: [PRR] Modeling signals > A while back I asked some questions about modeling position light > signals; I'm getting close to trying to install a position-light signal or > two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a control panel before > trying to simulate interlockings. This is getting closer to reality . > Meanwhile: > > There's a characteristic of signals that I never thought much about > until now. > > When a signal aspect changes, does the signal change to the new > indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period when the signal > is dark? Does this vary with different systems, e.g. automatic > block signals vs interlocking signals for example, or with the type > of interlocking machine perhaps? > > What brought this up was, a week or so ago I was riding a NJ > Transit commuter train out of New York. I was sitting on the left > side near the back of the train, and, as we proceeded through the > long left curve at Harrison, I could clearly see the position-light > signal ahead as my train passed beneath the signal bridge. (This > was probably the westward home signal at Dock interlocking.) > > The signal changed from medium clear to stop, as expected; but it > went dark for a loooong time, I would say about 3/4 of a second. > This may not sound like much, but it sure is noticeable. > > Is this typical or some kind of aberration? Even if the signal > changes "instantaneously," is there a noticeable delay as the new > lamps come to full brightness? If this is the case, does a lamp > previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center lamp in a position > light target) stay on throughout, or does it go dark briefly too? > Modeling this kind of behavior accurately might lead to some pretty > hairy electronics. > > I guess the hard way to do this would be to go out and watch lots > of signals in action! But maybe it has changed over time, too. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32464.A8592590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Modeling signals

John,  When I used to go watch things around = Port Perry and PG tower, the change from one aspect to another was = quite fast; it appeared to be a minute fraction of a second.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:08 AM
To: bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals


On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are several = shots taken with a train
passing a signal and the signal going from proceed = to stop.  On these
signals, mostly in electrified territory (for what = that's worth), the change
in the lights is pretty much instantaneous.

----- Original Message -----
From: <bobsin@nac.net>
To: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:09 AM
Subject: [PRR] Modeling signals


> A while back I asked some questions about = modeling position light
> signals; I'm getting close to trying to install = a position-light signal or
> two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a = control panel before
> trying to simulate interlockings.  This is = getting closer to reality .
> Meanwhile:
>
> There's a characteristic of signals that I = never thought much about
> until now.
>
> When a signal aspect changes, does the signal = change to the new
> indication instantly, or is there a noticeable = period when the signal
> is dark?  Does this vary with different = systems, e.g. automatic
> block signals vs interlocking signals for = example, or with the type
> of interlocking machine perhaps?
>
> What brought this up was, a week or so ago I = was riding a NJ
> Transit commuter train out of New York.  I = was sitting on the left
> side near the back of the train, and, as we = proceeded through the
> long left curve at Harrison, I could clearly = see the position-light
> signal ahead as my train passed beneath the = signal bridge.  (This
> was probably the westward home signal at Dock = interlocking.)
>
> The signal changed from medium clear to stop, = as expected; but it
> went dark for a loooong time, I would say about = 3/4 of a second.
> This may not sound like much, but it sure is = noticeable.
>
> Is this typical or some kind of = aberration?  Even if the signal
> changes "instantaneously," is there a = noticeable delay as the new
> lamps come to full brightness?  If this is = the case, does a lamp
> previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the = center lamp in a position
> light target) stay on throughout, or does it go = dark briefly too?
> Modeling this kind of behavior accurately might = lead to some pretty
> hairy electronics.
>
> I guess the hard way to do this would be to go = out and watch lots
> of signals in action!  But maybe it has = changed over time, too.
>
> John Bobsin
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32464.A8592590-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:42:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip insurance From: Jerry Britton On 5/27/03 11:27 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > We all want to see 1361 > under steam and preferably on the PRR trackage. Earlier today Bennett expressed his opinion that the two most likely spots for 1361 to run are either on the Bald Eagle Branch, out of Tyrone, or the "Clearfield Cluster" out of Cresson. Question is, would running out of either of these locations help/maintain the identity of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum? The museum "needs" 1361 to be part of its image. Having the departure point 30 minutes away may not be a good situation. The Cresson alternative would provide some good mountain scenery. The Bald Eagle would allow wide open running down a long valley. >From an insurance standpoint, I'd venture a guess that the Bald Eagle option would be less expensive. It's relatively flat with casual curves, and there's fairly ready access if there's a problem. Back the Cresson branches there are some areas that aren't real close to any roads! There are also some steep hillsides a derailed car could slide or tumble down! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] More Steam on the Corridor Questions Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:48:44 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0203_01C3242C.C7EF1000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A week or so ago there was a question about how much steam operated in = the electrified NEC in the 1950s. The answers were basically that steam = ran from Frankford Jct to 30th Street and from Jersey City to South = Amboy. However, this ties in to something I noticed about the Don Wood shot of = the K4 at Bay Head Jct on the cover of the current Keystone. The = enginehouse assignment for this loco is EA-CTE. This is Camden Terminal = Enginehouse. Were all NY&LB K4s assigned to Camden? If not, was there = an equivalent enginehouse in northern New Jersey that would have = appeared on their pilot beams? If the K4s were all assigned to Camden, = did they need to return to Camden regularly for inspections and = maintenance? If so, how did they get there? Did they go via the main = line, or did they go via the Camden and Amboy back road? ------=_NextPart_000_0203_01C3242C.C7EF1000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A week or so ago there was a question about how much = steam=20 operated in the electrified NEC in the 1950s.  The answers were = basically=20 that steam ran from Frankford Jct to 30th Street and from Jersey City to = South=20 Amboy.
 
However, this ties in to something I noticed about = the Don=20 Wood shot of the K4 at Bay Head Jct on the cover of the current = Keystone. =20 The enginehouse assignment for this loco is EA-CTE.  This is Camden = Terminal Enginehouse.  Were all NY&LB K4s assigned to=20 Camden?   If not, was there an equivalent enginehouse in = northern New=20 Jersey that would have appeared on their pilot beams?   If the = K4s=20 were all assigned to Camden, did they need to return to Camden regularly = for=20 inspections and maintenance?  If so, how did they get = there?  =20 Did they go via the main line, or did they go via the Camden and Amboy = back=20 road?
------=_NextPart_000_0203_01C3242C.C7EF1000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:15:22 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip insurance It seems that most people want to SEE 1361 run, rather than be behind it. This is the usual railfan's wishes. It also seems that the high cost of insurance is because of the passengers. So why not have the museum lease all the best foto op site along the curve for a few hours, charge admission to these sites, and have 1361 run with empty P70s in tow? The insurance might be a lot lower, especially if railfans could be kept 100 ft back from the trackside. The other good news is that digital cameras produce no litter! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 5/27/03 11:27 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > We all want to see 1361 > > under steam and preferably on the PRR trackage. > > Earlier today Bennett expressed his opinion that the two most likely spots > for 1361 to run are either on the Bald Eagle Branch, out of Tyrone, or the > "Clearfield Cluster" out of Cresson. > > Question is, would running out of either of these locations help/maintain > the identity of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum? The museum "needs" > 1361 to be part of its image. Having the departure point 30 minutes away may > not be a good situation. > > The Cresson alternative would provide some good mountain scenery. > > The Bald Eagle would allow wide open running down a long valley. > > From an insurance standpoint, I'd venture a guess that the Bald Eagle option > would be less expensive. It's relatively flat with casual curves, and > there's fairly ready access if there's a problem. Back the Cresson branches > there are some areas that aren't real close to any roads! There are also > some steep hillsides a derailed car could slide or tumble down! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip insurance Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:16:46 -0400 The fact that the RJ Corman line is remote from highways is a plus in that photo runby can be set up just for the paying guests! Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip insurance > On 5/27/03 11:27 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > We all want to see 1361 > > under steam and preferably on the PRR trackage. > > Earlier today Bennett expressed his opinion that the two most likely spots > for 1361 to run are either on the Bald Eagle Branch, out of Tyrone, or the > "Clearfield Cluster" out of Cresson. > > Question is, would running out of either of these locations help/maintain > the identity of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum? The museum "needs" > 1361 to be part of its image. Having the departure point 30 minutes away may > not be a good situation. > > The Cresson alternative would provide some good mountain scenery. > > The Bald Eagle would allow wide open running down a long valley. > > From an insurance standpoint, I'd venture a guess that the Bald Eagle option > would be less expensive. It's relatively flat with casual curves, and > there's fairly ready access if there's a problem. Back the Cresson branches > there are some areas that aren't real close to any roads! There are also > some steep hillsides a derailed car could slide or tumble down! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ask the man who owns one! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:19:34 -0400 It is a much different world since the demise of Conrail. Don't count on "trackage rights" for excursions. It is subject to the golden rule. He who owns the gold, makes the rules! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Ask the man who owns one! > Bemmet said, > > "The trips to Port Jervis were a-typical because most commuter > authorites do not have lines of that length and nature." > > ++++++ > > And actually, most of that line was Conrail-owned (now NS), with > NJT trackage rights (even if NJT dispatches the line, Conrail owned > it I think.) > > So, similarly, NJT could run a K4 trip from Newark to Trenton and > back, using their trackage rights on the Corridor, no? (With > Railroaders Museum sponsorship, of course.) Now, wouldn't that > be something! And maybe SEPTA could pick it up at Trenton . . . > Newark to Newark even!! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:41:33 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] liability insurance Just to let the "liability insurance challenged" in on the magnitude of the problem... It is not just big steam, but any person or organization that has insurance. I am a physician and my malpractice insurance has doubled in the past 3 years to about $8000 a year which sounds bad until its compared to other states. Virginia has some tort reform -- a "cap" on medical malpractice cases of $2 million per incident and less lawyers than some areas. Dade County/ Miami has internists like me paying $50,000 a year and "high risk" docs like obstetricians paying $250,000. The small country hospital where I work, which was an official PRR Hospital!! (listed in the ETTs, notice how I snuck in the obligatory content) will pay close to $1 million for liability and property insurance this year...over 2% of our operating expenses. It is a combination of out uniquely American propensity to sue for almost anything, a few folks using lawsuits as a "lottery", and the insurers loosing money on their investments (they invest premium dollars as reserves to pay out future losses.) Depressing subject, Jim McDaniel, paying through the nose in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:52:15 +0000 OK one of you passenger experts can help me out here. What was the availability of equipment in say the 50's for PRR passenger equipment? How many miles were trucks good for before the wheelsets needed turning or replacing or brakeshoes? How often was equipment down for major repairs? The Broadway had a 10-12 hour layover in Chicago. Could major work be perfromed in this time? I don't think I have ever read anything about passenger car maintenance in any publication. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:30:11 +0000 I think that in the Broadway's case, there were a select number of cars assigned to "protect" the train. Given a 10-12 hour layover, no substantial repairs could be preformed. Hence, substitute cars were available to fill in if the primary cars were out of commission. I believe that a select number of cars were used to protect a select number of train(s). Therefore, the quality and consistancy of equipment would be assured. Ted >From: ndbprr@att.net >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) >Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:52:15 +0000 > >OK one of you passenger experts can help me out here. What was the >availability of equipment in say the 50's for PRR passenger equipment? How >many miles were trucks good for before the wheelsets needed turning or >replacing or brakeshoes? How often was equipment down for major repairs? >The >Broadway had a 10-12 hour layover in Chicago. Could major work be >perfromed in >this time? I don't think I have ever read anything about passenger car >maintenance in any publication. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:03:28 -0400 This was basicly true across the board. However, PRR discontinued ALL Class repairs to passenger coaches in 1957 and did not resume until 1959 when a limited number of P85s and P70gs and Scheme 6s went through Altoona. In two years time the fleet had become VERY downtrodden! One exception to this rule was that the P70fbrs were continuously cycled through Wilmington Shops for truck overhauls. This amounted to jacking the coach up and removing both trucks. The trucks were then completely disassembled and all bushings and wear plates were renewed. New springs were applied, the equalizers checked for cracks, new wheels and rebuilt brake rigging applied. At the same time, all couplers and draft gears were removed and replaced. Touch up painting and new plastic seat cushion covers were also applied. They were nice cars. Very smooth riding, but the lack of reclining seats was a bummer! Brake shoes were changed out between runs on all trains on turnaround and since there were no in-floor wheel truing machines except at Harrisburg Diesel Shop, the coaches and sleepers had to be pulled out of the consists and placed on the shop track at Sunnyside and Chicago for wheel replacements. I remember on a couple of occasions coaches were shopped at Harrisburg and brought over the wheel truing machine in a pinch. Since we didn't have computers to keep track in those days, no accurate records were kept of mileage on wheels. The wheels were usually replaced for flat spots and then condemned to scrap if worn past their limits by the wheel shop (Haltoona), where the coach number had long since been lost as to origin. Probably the most Herculean task for coach maintenance was keeping the Tubular Train on the rails with a very short window of opportunity to work on it each night at West Philadelphia between its daily runs. Make sense? WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:30 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance I think that in the Broadway's case, there were a select number of cars assigned to "protect" the train. Given a 10-12 hour layover, no substantial repairs could be preformed. Hence, substitute cars were available to fill in if the primary cars were out of commission. I believe that a select number of cars were used to protect a select number of train(s). Therefore, the quality and consistancy of equipment would be assured. Ted >From: ndbprr@att.net >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) >Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:52:15 +0000 > >OK one of you passenger experts can help me out here. What was the >availability of equipment in say the 50's for PRR passenger equipment? >How many miles were trucks good for before the wheelsets needed turning >or replacing or brakeshoes? How often was equipment down for major repairs? >The >Broadway had a 10-12 hour layover in Chicago. Could major work be >perfromed in >this time? I don't think I have ever read anything about passenger car >maintenance in any publication. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:42:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Since we didn't have computers to keep track in those days, no accurate > records were kept of mileage on wheels. The wheels were usually > replaced for flat spots and then condemned to scrap if worn past their > limits by the wheel shop (Haltoona), where the coach number had long > since been lost as to origin. This paragraph from Bill raised a question in my mind. What flat spot size gets (or got - if the size has changed over time) a car yanked out of service and sent to repair? Seems like I remember reading somewhere that it was 4", but that seems awfully large. And is the flat spot size different for freight than passenger cars? Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:00:28 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale PRR F7 Antenna Project Matt & list, The following is in real inches for S scale, from the rear wall. BTW, the first stanchion is RIGHT on the rear edge of the roof for F3 A units that had the rear roof overhang cut off. I believe that to be true for F7 & F9 as well. I have not seen anything to contradict that. I chose to move everything slightly forward approximately 1/16" because I did not want possibly to pierce the overhang. 1 1/16" from first to the second stanchion. Equally spaced at 1 1/16" until the 6th stanchion. 1 " spacing from the 6th to the 7th (last) stanchion. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:26:40 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C3247D.841CD5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The signals that can be seen from the platform at Wayne, PA on the = Harrisburg line will display Approach briefly before tumbling down to = Stop&Proceed. Presumably, the same circuitry would be in place = elsewhere on the Harrisburg line. I would assume that in this case the = distant relay has different characteristics and drops before the home = relay, or some such. Pentrex's video of the northeast cooridor has a good shot of an EB = passing the tower on 2 taking a home signal. I believe the outer lights = go dark for a fraction of a second, while the center light stays lit. John -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: 'John Bruce' ; bobsin@nac.net ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:37 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling signals =20 =20 John, When I used to go watch things around Port Perry and PG = tower, the change from one aspect to another was quite fast; it appeared = to be a minute fraction of a second. Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:08 AM=20 To: bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals=20 =20 =20 On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are several shots taken with a = train=20 passing a signal and the signal going from proceed to stop. On = these=20 signals, mostly in electrified territory (for what that's worth), = the change=20 in the lights is pretty much instantaneous.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: =20 To: =20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:09 AM=20 Subject: [PRR] Modeling signals=20 =20 =20 > A while back I asked some questions about modeling position light=20 > signals; I'm getting close to trying to install a position-light = signal or=20 > two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a control panel = before=20 > trying to simulate interlockings. This is getting closer to = reality .=20 > Meanwhile:=20 >=20 > There's a characteristic of signals that I never thought much = about=20 > until now.=20 >=20 > When a signal aspect changes, does the signal change to the new=20 > indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period when the = signal=20 > is dark? Does this vary with different systems, e.g. automatic=20 > block signals vs interlocking signals for example, or with the = type=20 > of interlocking machine perhaps?=20 >=20 > What brought this up was, a week or so ago I was riding a NJ=20 > Transit commuter train out of New York. I was sitting on the left = > side near the back of the train, and, as we proceeded through the=20 > long left curve at Harrison, I could clearly see the = position-light=20 > signal ahead as my train passed beneath the signal bridge. (This=20 > was probably the westward home signal at Dock interlocking.)=20 >=20 > The signal changed from medium clear to stop, as expected; but it=20 > went dark for a loooong time, I would say about 3/4 of a second.=20 > This may not sound like much, but it sure is noticeable.=20 >=20 > Is this typical or some kind of aberration? Even if the signal=20 > changes "instantaneously," is there a noticeable delay as the new=20 > lamps come to full brightness? If this is the case, does a lamp=20 > previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center lamp in a = position=20 > light target) stay on throughout, or does it go dark briefly too?=20 > Modeling this kind of behavior accurately might lead to some = pretty=20 > hairy electronics.=20 >=20 > I guess the hard way to do this would be to go out and watch lots=20 > of signals in action! But maybe it has changed over time, too.=20 >=20 > John Bobsin=20 >=20 > = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. = =20 =20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C3247D.841CD5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Modeling = signals
The signals that can be seen from = the platform=20 at Wayne, PA on the Harrisburg line will display Approach briefly before = tumbling down to Stop&Proceed.  Presumably, the same circuitry = would be=20 in place elsewhere on the Harrisburg line.  I would assume that in = this=20 case the distant relay has different characteristics and drops before = the home=20 relay, or some such.
 
Pentrex's video of the northeast cooridor has a good = shot of=20 an EB passing the tower on 2 taking a home signal.  I believe the = outer=20 lights go dark for a fraction of a second, while the center light stays=20 lit.
 
John
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 ELDEN GATWOOD <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>To:=20 'John Bruce' <j.bruce@gte.net>; bobsin@nac.net <bobsin@nac.net>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Modeling=20 signals

John,  When I used to go watch things around = Port Perry=20 and PG tower, the change from one aspect to another was quite fast; = it=20 appeared to be a minute fraction of a second.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] =
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:08 AM
To:=20 bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: = Re: [PRR]=20 Modeling signals


On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are several = shots taken=20 with a train
passing a signal and the = signal going=20 from proceed to stop.  On these
signals, mostly=20 in electrified territory (for what that's worth), the change=20
in the lights is pretty much = instantaneous.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 <bobsin@nac.net>
To:=20 <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, = May 27,=20 2003 5:09 AM
Subject: [PRR] Modeling = signals=20



----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C3247D.841CD5A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:11:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C324A5.5B410F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clarification. The Pentrex shot I spoke of is at Dock. -----Original Message----- From: Laurie Cooper To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals =20 =20 The signals that can be seen from the platform at Wayne, PA on the = Harrisburg line will display Approach briefly before tumbling down to = Stop&Proceed. Presumably, the same circuitry would be in place = elsewhere on the Harrisburg line. I would assume that in this case the = distant relay has different characteristics and drops before the home = relay, or some such. =20 Pentrex's video of the northeast cooridor has a good shot of an EB = passing the tower on 2 taking a home signal. I believe the outer lights = go dark for a fraction of a second, while the center light stays lit. =20 John -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: 'John Bruce' ; bobsin@nac.net = ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:37 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling signals =20 =20 John, When I used to go watch things around Port Perry and PG = tower, the change from one aspect to another was quite fast; it appeared = to be a minute fraction of a second. Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:08 AM=20 To: bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals=20 =20 =20 On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are several shots taken = with a train=20 passing a signal and the signal going from proceed to stop. On = these=20 signals, mostly in electrified territory (for what that's = worth), the change=20 in the lights is pretty much instantaneous.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: =20 To: =20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:09 AM=20 Subject: [PRR] Modeling signals=20 =20 =20 > A while back I asked some questions about modeling position = light=20 > signals; I'm getting close to trying to install a = position-light signal or=20 > two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a control panel = before=20 > trying to simulate interlockings. This is getting closer to = reality .=20 > Meanwhile:=20 >=20 > There's a characteristic of signals that I never thought much = about=20 > until now.=20 >=20 > When a signal aspect changes, does the signal change to the = new=20 > indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period when the = signal=20 > is dark? Does this vary with different systems, e.g. = automatic=20 > block signals vs interlocking signals for example, or with the = type=20 > of interlocking machine perhaps?=20 >=20 > What brought this up was, a week or so ago I was riding a NJ=20 > Transit commuter train out of New York. I was sitting on the = left=20 > side near the back of the train, and, as we proceeded through = the=20 > long left curve at Harrison, I could clearly see the = position-light=20 > signal ahead as my train passed beneath the signal bridge. = (This=20 > was probably the westward home signal at Dock interlocking.)=20 >=20 > The signal changed from medium clear to stop, as expected; but = it=20 > went dark for a loooong time, I would say about 3/4 of a = second.=20 > This may not sound like much, but it sure is noticeable.=20 >=20 > Is this typical or some kind of aberration? Even if the = signal=20 > changes "instantaneously," is there a noticeable delay as the = new=20 > lamps come to full brightness? If this is the case, does a = lamp=20 > previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center lamp in a = position=20 > light target) stay on throughout, or does it go dark briefly = too?=20 > Modeling this kind of behavior accurately might lead to some = pretty=20 > hairy electronics.=20 >=20 > I guess the hard way to do this would be to go out and watch = lots=20 > of signals in action! But maybe it has changed over time, = too.=20 >=20 > John Bobsin=20 >=20 > = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 > For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20 =20 =20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C324A5.5B410F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Modeling = signals
Clarification.  The Pentrex shot I spoke of is = at=20 Dock.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Laurie Cooper <johncoop@ix.netcom.com>
= To:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com = <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Modeling=20 signals

The signals that can be seen = from the=20 platform at Wayne, PA on the Harrisburg line will display Approach = briefly=20 before tumbling down to Stop&Proceed.  Presumably, the same = circuitry would be in place elsewhere on the Harrisburg line.  = I would=20 assume that in this case the distant relay has different = characteristics and=20 drops before the home relay, or some such.
 
Pentrex's video of the northeast cooridor has a = good shot=20 of an EB passing the tower on 2 taking a home signal.  I = believe the=20 outer lights go dark for a fraction of a second, while the center = light=20 stays lit.
 
John
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: ELDEN GATWOOD <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>To:=20 'John Bruce' <j.bruce@gte.net>; bobsin@nac.net <bobsin@nac.net>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Modeling=20 signals

John,  When I used to go watch things = around Port=20 Perry and PG tower, the change from one aspect to another was = quite=20 fast; it appeared to be a minute fraction of a = second.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:08 AM =
To: bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals


On the Emery Gulash PRR video, there are = several shots=20 taken with a train
passing a signal = and the=20 signal going from proceed to stop.  On these =
signals, mostly in electrified territory (for what = that's worth),=20 the change
in the lights is pretty = much=20 instantaneous.

----- Original Message -----
From: <bobsin@nac.net>
To:=20 <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: = Tuesday, May 27,=20 2003 5:09 AM
Subject: [PRR] Modeling=20 signals


> A while back I asked some questions about = modeling=20 position light
> signals; I'm = getting close=20 to trying to install a position-light signal or
> two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a = control=20 panel before
> trying to simulate=20 interlockings.  This is getting closer to reality .=20
> Meanwhile:
>=20
> There's a characteristic of signals that = I never=20 thought much about
> until = now.=20
>
> When a = signal aspect=20 changes, does the signal change to the new
>=20 indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period when the=20 signal
> is dark?  Does this = vary with=20 different systems, e.g. automatic
> = block=20 signals vs interlocking signals for example, or with the = type=20
> of interlocking machine perhaps? =
>
> What brought this = up was, a=20 week or so ago I was riding a NJ
> = Transit=20 commuter train out of New York.  I was sitting on the = left=20
> side near the back of the train, and, as = we=20 proceeded through the
> long left = curve at=20 Harrison, I could clearly see the position-light =
> signal ahead as my train passed beneath the signal = bridge.  (This
> was probably = the=20 westward home signal at Dock interlocking.)
>
> The signal changed = from medium=20 clear to stop, as expected; but it
> went=20 dark for a loooong time, I would say about 3/4 of a = second.=20
> This may not sound like much, but it = sure is=20 noticeable.
>
> Is=20 this typical or some kind of aberration?  Even if the = signal=20
> changes "instantaneously," is = there a=20 noticeable delay as the new
> lamps = come to=20 full brightness?  If this is the case, does a lamp =
> previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center = lamp in a=20 position
> light target) stay on = throughout,=20 or does it go dark briefly too?
> = Modeling=20 this kind of behavior accurately might lead to some = pretty=20
> hairy electronics.
>
> I guess the hard = way to do this=20 would be to go out and watch lots
> = of=20 signals in action!  But maybe it has changed over time, = too.=20
>
> John = Bobsin=20
>
>=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20
> For assistance with this list, please = visit http://lists.dsop.com.


----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C324A5.5B410F20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:47:19 +0100 Bill, I found your posting very interesting, being (still) involved in the business over here. What sort of facilities were available at Sunnyside & Chicago? Were the cars lifted or jacked there? Did east-west duty passenger cars get their Class repairs only at Altoona? I assume that air conditioning and electrical "exams" (filter changing/cleaning, testing etc.) were also carried out on Due cars during the (what I consider (these days) to be a long 10 hour!) turnround? Were individual cars allocated to a particular facility for light maintenance such as this? Sorry if this reads like just a load of questions, but my curiosity is aroused! Regards, Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: 'Ted Andrews' ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance > This was basicly true across the board. However, PRR discontinued ALL > Class repairs to passenger coaches in 1957 and did not resume until 1959 > when a limited number of P85s and P70gs and Scheme 6s went through > Altoona. In two years time the fleet had become VERY downtrodden! One > exception to this rule was that the P70fbrs were continuously cycled > through Wilmington Shops for truck overhauls. This amounted to jacking > the coach up and removing both trucks. The trucks were then completely > disassembled and all bushings and wear plates were renewed. New springs > were applied, the equalizers checked for cracks, new wheels and rebuilt > brake rigging applied. At the same time, all couplers and draft gears > were removed and replaced. Touch up painting and new plastic seat > cushion covers were also applied. They were nice cars. Very smooth > riding, but the lack of reclining seats was a bummer! > > Brake shoes were changed out between runs on all trains on turnaround > and since there were no in-floor wheel truing machines except at > Harrisburg Diesel Shop, the coaches and sleepers had to be pulled out of > the consists and placed on the shop track at Sunnyside and Chicago for > wheel replacements. I remember on a couple of occasions coaches were > shopped at Harrisburg and brought over the wheel truing machine in a > pinch. > > Since we didn't have computers to keep track in those days, no accurate > records were kept of mileage on wheels. The wheels were usually > replaced for flat spots and then condemned to scrap if worn past their > limits by the wheel shop (Haltoona), where the coach number had long > since been lost as to origin. > > Probably the most Herculean task for coach maintenance was keeping the > Tubular Train on the rails with a very short window of opportunity to > work on it each night at West Philadelphia between its daily runs. > > Make sense? > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted > Andrews > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:30 PM > To: ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance > > > I think that in the Broadway's case, there were a select number of cars > assigned to "protect" the train. Given a 10-12 hour layover, no > substantial > repairs could be preformed. Hence, substitute cars were available to > fill in > if the primary cars were out of commission. I believe that a select > number > of cars were used to protect a select number of train(s). Therefore, the > > quality and consistancy of equipment would be assured. > > Ted > > > >From: ndbprr@att.net > >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) > >Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance > >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:52:15 +0000 > > > >OK one of you passenger experts can help me out here. What was the > >availability of equipment in say the 50's for PRR passenger equipment? > > >How many miles were trucks good for before the wheelsets needed turning > > >or replacing or brakeshoes? How often was equipment down for major > repairs? > >The > >Broadway had a 10-12 hour layover in Chicago. Could major work be > >perfromed in > >this time? I don't think I have ever read anything about passenger car > >maintenance in any publication. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 06:49:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals This is all very interesting; different signals behave differently. The dark period on the Pentrex video is at Dock? That's where I saw the dark period too, so maybe Dock has a different kind of machine controlling the signals. Slower relays or something? Modeling will probably involve some kind of compromise. The most straighforward implementation would be instantaneous change between aspects, which is probably the most unrealistic unfortunately. And we haven't discussed manually-operated signals. I recall riding a fan trip years ago on the LIRR, in which the train ran west on the (nonelectrified) Montauk Branch from Jamaica to Long Island City, then went around the connecting track that joins the LIRR/PRR main line tracks just at the east portals of the East River tunnels, around the Hunterspoint Ave LIRR station. (It comes down a ramp after flying over some of the main tracks.) As we left the Montauk line, I was standing on the rear platform; and we passed what was evidently a manual block signal for movements in the opposite direction. The operator skillfully changed the indication rapidly so he made the position light signal look like a pinwheel! The lights spun around quickly for a few seconds, clear, to stop, to, umm, maybe Restricting, to clear, etc. He knew he was playing to an audience of rail buffs, and made the most of it! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:33:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Some modeling intentions... --part1_84.11cb1fc9.2c05f8a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/27/03 11:42:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Flores > Subject: Re: Choice of operations : which portion of the Panhandle to model > > Actually the Panhandle was anything west of > Pittsburgh, so not necessarily in Ohio, although I cna > see what you mean. There are at least 5 issues of the > Keystone magazine that dealt with the Panhandle, > Panhandle vols 1 & 2, and the Branches, vols 1&2, and > the Panhandle revisited, not to mention articles that > were set in the Panhandle. I am sure Rick can help > you with this to a greater extent. Bob Flores, out in > Columbus Ohio, on the Panhandle > > --- pinecreekrr wrote: > > Rick : I've followed your writings since you wrote > > in the model > > press about loco horsepower and choice of locos for > > different types > > of train service. I've enjoyed the exploratory > > nature and detailed > > features of your posts on this list since I > > discovered it earlier in > > the year. > > > > Following up on Stu Thayer's curiousity, I wondered > > if you'd offer > > some of your own thoughts/considerations in trying > > to pin down a > > portion of the Panhandle to model. Apparently it > > will be in Ohio? > > > > Looking forward to reading more of the List's > > comments on this > > topic. Bruce Luecke > > > > > > > Bruce, Thanks for the kind words. I've been unusually busy lately and am only just returning to the issues of end points and track plan for the next "Panhandle" layout. The back files of PRR-Modeling, PennsyWest, and of PRR-Talk contain some past debate on possible designs for the new pike. Back files should also have some discussion about my last "Panhandle Route" layout, where scenes were inspired by locales west of Xenia OH. Many people would say the new and old layouts (nearly same 1968 era, same equipment) are too similar -- and I'm concerned about that. However, I think my major motivations are: 1. to move toward a locale of heavier traffic. Columbus Ohio fits this ticket, with plenty of through traffic reclassified, and also heavy local industry. 2. To attempt to model actual towns with some faithfulness. The previous layout was pretty generic, and the names of most places had been disguised to protect the guilty. Most of the track plans I've been sketching start in downtown Columbus a little east of the station, go west to High Street, and then follow the Dayton line west as far as Xenia. The Chicago tracks from High Street (via Bradford OH and Logansport IN) can orbit the room and return from the east as the Panhandle line from Pittsburgh and Mingo Junction, and this double-track loop of mostly-hidden track would connect to copious behind-the-scenes staging. Also, the loop, two thirds unscenicked, would be an excellent first stage of construction, getting some trains running quickly. Hopefully, this new "Buckeye Division" layout (set tentatively in summer 1967) would capture the big traffic that passed through Columbus, with some trains turning off onto a single track line to Xenia that will be "more modelable" and "more operatable". As the west end, Xenia would be backed up by Cincinnati and Dayton staging yards. And the line west to Xenia would support local freights working mixed agricultural and industrial customers. As I've said before, think of "a granger with keystones". However, at this point, there's still plenty of options that are being thrown into the pot. These inputs have been slowing down finalization of a plan: 1. There's an expectation that the layout will support great big 30-car trains, as well as the large radii (44") found on the last layout. Even in a large room, staging tracks, passing sidings, and yard arrival/departure tracks take up a lot of room, and the number of good sites for these starts to dwindle as the trains get longer. I'm beginning to see that long trains may work for the Chicago traffic, but standards on the Cincinnati-Xenia line may need to be less generous. 2. Locally, I'm beset by an enormous corps of enthusiastic DCC proponents. Because DCC is a declining-cost item, and is likely to improve in capabilities in the future, I'm deferring any such move until the layout is up and running. I want to demonstrate that the layout is worth building, before I tinker with installing circuit boards in up to 115 diesel units. DCC or not, I will be using large wire to keep circuit resistance down. 3. My friends in the Layout Design SIG long ago made up their minds that seeing a train pass through scenery more than once is exceedingly unrealistic. Fortunately, I built the previous layout before this rule became cast in stone, and so "used" virtually all my scenery twice, with a curvy "river level line" near the aisle and a "horizon line" right-of-way at the rear, right in front of the backdrop. Frankly, I thought this was a great way to show off two contrasting rights-of-way, but I know that I won't be allowed to do this again. 4. Since High Street to Xenia is some 54 miles on the prototype, there's an issue of just how long the modeled run to Xenia needs to be. If the line were cropped off short of Xenia, we'd lose the only outlying yard fit to dispatch locals. Besides, Xenia sends out locals in four directions (to Dayton, Springfield, Cincinnati, and Columbus). If a main line run of 200 feet or less won't cut it, then the layout could require some double decking. We all know that Tony Koester decided to go double deck to get the 500 foot main line he decided he needs, and my debate is similar. However, I'm not completely happy with the scenery I see on most multideck layouts, so we're still noodling with this one. 5. If there's to be any substandard scenery or lighting, I think I'd prefer it to be on the eastern half of the line (east of London OH and toward Columbus). One reason is that Xenia, Cedarville, and South Charleston (i.e, the west end of this line) are a lot closer to "home" and need to be modeled more fully to be satisfactory to me. Fortunately, if there's multidecking, the east end will be on the bottom deck. I'm determined that any "top deck" be of decent width, with good lighting and a backdrop at least 3 feet high. You can see I've still got a lot of thinking to do, and tradeoffs to make. However, that's what makes the planning of a layout so rewarding - and I'm starting to really enjoy myself. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_84.11cb1fc9.2c05f8a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/27/03 11:42:29 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Bob Flores <bobflores99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Choice of operations : which portion of the Panhandle to model<= BR>
Actually the Panhandle was anything west of
Pittsburgh, so not necessarily in Ohio, although I cna
see what you mean.  There are at least 5 issues of the
Keystone magazine that dealt with the Panhandle,
Panhandle vols 1 & 2, and the Branches, vols 1&2, and
the Panhandle revisited, not to mention articles that
were set in the Panhandle.  I am sure Rick can help
you with this to a greater extent.  Bob Flores, out in
Columbus Ohio, on the Panhandle

--- pinecreekrr <blFormSA@aol.com> wrote:
> Rick :  I've followed your writings since you wrote
> in the model
> press about loco horsepower and choice of locos for
> different types
> of train service.  I've enjoyed the exploratory
> nature and detailed
> features of your posts on this list since I
> discovered it earlier in
> the year.
>
> Following up on Stu Thayer's curiousity, I wondered
> if you'd offer
> some of your own thoughts/considerations in trying
> to pin down a
> portion of the Panhandle to model.  Apparently it
> will be in Ohio?
>
> Looking forward to reading more of the List's
> comments on this
> topic.   Bruce Luecke  
>
>
>


Bruce,

Thanks for the kind words.  I've been unusually busy lately and am only= just returning to the issues of end points and track plan for the next "Pan= handle" layout.  The back files of PRR-Modeling, PennsyWest, and of PRR= -Talk contain some past debate on possible designs for the new pike. Back fi= les should also have some discussion about my last "Panhandle Route" layout,= where scenes were inspired by locales west of Xenia OH. 

Many people would say the new and old layouts (nearly same 1968 era, same eq= uipment) are too similar -- and I'm concerned about that.   Howeve= r, I think my major motivations are:
1. to move toward a locale of heavier traffic.  Columbus Ohio fits this= ticket, with plenty of through traffic reclassified, and also heavy local i= ndustry.
2. To attempt to model actual towns with some faithfulness.  The previo= us layout was pretty generic, and the names of most places had been disguise= d to protect the guilty.

Most of the track plans I've been sketching start in downtown Columbus a lit= tle east of the station, go west to High Street, and then follow the Dayton=20= line west as far as Xenia.  The Chicago tracks from High Street (via Br= adford OH and Logansport IN) can orbit the room and return from the east as=20= the Panhandle line from Pittsburgh and Mingo Junction, and this double-track= loop of mostly-hidden track would connect to copious behind-the-scenes stag= ing.  Also, the loop, two thirds unscenicked, would be an excellent fir= st stage of construction, getting some trains running quickly.

Hopefully, this new "Buckeye Division" layout (set tentatively in summer 196= 7) would capture the big traffic that passed through Columbus, with some tra= ins turning off onto a single track line to Xenia that will be "more modelab= le" and "more operatable".  As the west end, Xenia would be backed up b= y Cincinnati and Dayton staging yards.  And the line west to Xenia woul= d support local freights working mixed agricultural and industrial customers= .  As I've said before, think of "a granger with keystones".

However, at this point, there's still plenty of options that are being throw= n into the pot.  These inputs have been slowing down finalization of a=20= plan:
1.  There's an expectation that the layout will support great big 30-ca= r trains, as well as the large radii (44") found on the last layout. &n= bsp; Even in a large room, staging tracks, passing sidings, and yard arrival= /departure tracks take up a lot of room, and the number of good sites for th= ese starts to dwindle as the trains get longer.  I'm beginning to see t= hat long trains may work for the Chicago traffic, but standards on the Cinci= nnati-Xenia line may need to be less generous.
2.  Locally, I'm beset by an enormous corps of enthusiastic DCC propone= nts.  Because DCC is a declining-cost item, and is likely to improve in= capabilities in the future, I'm deferring any such move until the layout is= up and running.  I want to demonstrate that the layout is worth buildi= ng, before I tinker with installing circuit boards in up to 115 diesel units= .  DCC or not, I will be using large wire to keep circuit resistance do= wn.
3. My friends in the Layout Design SIG long ago made up their minds that see= ing a train pass through scenery more than once is exceedingly unrealistic.&= nbsp; Fortunately, I built the previous layout before this rule became cast=20= in stone, and so "used" virtually all my scenery twice, with a curvy "river=20= level line" near the aisle and a "horizon line" right-of-way at the rear, ri= ght in front of the backdrop.  Frankly, I thought this was a great way=20= to show off two contrasting rights-of-way, but I know that I won't be allowe= d to do this again.
4. Since High Street to Xenia is some 54 miles on the prototype, there's an=20= issue of just how long the modeled run to Xenia needs to be.  If the li= ne were cropped off short of Xenia, we'd lose the only outlying yard fit to=20= dispatch locals.  Besides, Xenia sends out locals in four directions (t= o Dayton, Springfield, Cincinnati, and Columbus).  If a main line run o= f 200 feet or less won't cut it, then the layout could require some double d= ecking.  We all know that Tony Koester decided to go double deck to get= the 500 foot main line he decided he needs, and my debate is similar. = However, I'm not completely happy with the scenery I see on most multideck=20= layouts, so we're still noodling with this one.
5.  If there's to be any substandard scenery or lighting, I think I'd p= refer it to be on the eastern half of the line (east of London OH and toward= Columbus).  One reason is that  Xenia, Cedarville, and South Char= leston (i.e, the west end of this line) are a lot closer to "home" and need=20= to be modeled more fully to be satisfactory to me.  Fortunately, if the= re's multidecking, the east end will be on the bottom deck.  I'm determ= ined that any "top deck" be of decent width, with good lighting and a backdr= op at least 3 feet high.

You can see I've still got a lot of thinking to do, and tradeoffs to make.&n= bsp; However, that's what makes the planning of a layout so rewarding - and=20= I'm starting to really enjoy myself.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_84.11cb1fc9.2c05f8a4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 05:10:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Meadows Enginehouse and Camden Enginehouse...and pilot beam John, list, Bearing in mind that I was born two years after the PRR vanished into Penn Central, this is what my research has uncovered so far. Corrections and additions are always welcome. According to Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, page 123, the author recalls seeing K4s 830 steaming home from Camden Enginehouse after her monthly boiler wash on the old Camden and Amboy line at an unspecified date during the 1950s. I don't see why they couldn't have run the engines on the mail line either (the K4s certainly had the speed potential on level ground to keep the main line fluid enough and not slow the electrics down). On page 128 of the same book, there are several shots of K4s engines (including the 1361, 830, and 3678) at Meadows in 1955 and 1956. According to the caption, the coal dock and coaling tower were out of service at Meadows by that time and coaling was accomplished with a bucket loader. In Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A Second Look, on page 157, there's a shot of K4s engines 1453 and 646 on 24 November 1955 serving as protection engines for the GG1s powering the Army-Navy football game specials. According to the caption, "By this time, the Meadows Enginehouse no longer performed heavy steam locomotive repairs...." Based on this secondary information, I believe that K4s assigned to the New York and Long Branch that needed boiler washes and running repairs would go to Meadows through the early 1950s. Sometime around 1954-1955 and lasting until the end of PRR steam, as Meadows performed less steam work, the K4s engines would go to Camden for their boiler washes. I model the NY&LB in 1948-50, and I'm still trying to figure out what the correct pilot beam symbols for my steamers should be....let the list know what you find out. Doug --- John Bruce wrote: > A week or so ago there was a question about how much > steam operated in the electrified NEC in the 1950s. > The answers were basically that steam ran from > Frankford Jct to 30th Street and from Jersey City to > South Amboy. > > However, this ties in to something I noticed about > the Don Wood shot of the K4 at Bay Head Jct on the > cover of the current Keystone. The enginehouse > assignment for this loco is EA-CTE. This is Camden > Terminal Enginehouse. Were all NY&LB K4s assigned > to Camden? If not, was there an equivalent > enginehouse in northern New Jersey that would have > appeared on their pilot beams? If the K4s were all > assigned to Camden, did they need to return to > Camden regularly for inspections and maintenance? > If so, how did they get there? Did they go via the > main line, or did they go via the Camden and Amboy > back road? > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:04:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C324F8.223CDFD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunnyside had probably the largest running repair facility on the road, but by today's standards it was something out of the dark ages. There were no such things as "lifts" that I can remember. Everything was jacked with portable air jacks and the car end set on "tubs" while the truck was rolled out from under the car. I don't remember exactly what they had at Chicago, but I am certain it was nowhere near as complete as Sunnyside if you could call Sunnyside "complete." Penn Coach Yard at Philadelphia and Ivy City were also fair sized operations but even Philadelphia you could only get a maximum of four coaches on two tracks under roof at any one time and the roof had no sides except on one side where there was a shall workshop for tools and supplies. Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati etc. all had very small rip tracks for working on coaches. All coaches were assigned to maintenance points for air brake, air conditioning and heating attention. For example, West Philadelphia was assigned the "clocker" cars. Sunnyside was assigned the North Jersey Commuter fleet, the east west fleet and the New York-Washington Congo fleet. All heavy repairs were carried out at Altoona, but Wilmington often had programmed repair projects such as RPO cars, truck overhauls, MU car heavy repairs and the like. Probabably the biggest headache on the coach fleet was maintaining the water raising system which was a complex piping arrangement whereby train air was utilized to force water from the storage tank down below up to the toilet(s) and drinking fountain. When a train would come uncoupled on the road during freezing weather, the steam connector would break off. The train would frequently continue across the country with the rear half of the train unheated and several coaches would freeze up. When this happened the ENTIRE undercar water raising system had to be replaced in each affected coach. This kept a gang of 15 or so people busy at West Philadelphia during the coldest winter months. Electrically heated coaches were a Godsend to the railroads, believe me. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Martin Skrzetuszewski [mailto:martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:47 AM To: PRR-Talk Cc: Bill Volkmer Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance Bill, I found your posting very interesting, being (still) involved in the business over here. What sort of facilities were available at Sunnyside & Chicago? Were the cars lifted or jacked there? Did east-west duty passenger cars get their Class repairs only at Altoona? I assume that air conditioning and electrical "exams" (filter changing/cleaning, testing etc.) were also carried out on Due cars during the (what I consider (these days) to be a long 10 hour!) turnround? Were individual cars allocated to a particular facility for light maintenance such as this? Sorry if this reads like just a load of questions, but my curiosity is aroused! Regards, Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: 'Ted Andrews' ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance > This was basicly true across the board. However, PRR discontinued ALL > Class repairs to passenger coaches in 1957 and did not resume until 1959 > when a limited number of P85s and P70gs and Scheme 6s went through > Altoona. In two years time the fleet had become VERY downtrodden! One > exception to this rule was that the P70fbrs were continuously cycled > through Wilmington Shops for truck overhauls. This amounted to jacking > the coach up and removing both trucks. The trucks were then completely > disassembled and all bushings and wear plates were renewed. New springs > were applied, the equalizers checked for cracks, new wheels and rebuilt > brake rigging applied. At the same time, all couplers and draft gears > were removed and replaced. Touch up painting and new plastic seat > cushion covers were also applied. They were nice cars. Very smooth > riding, but the lack of reclining seats was a bummer! > > Brake shoes were changed out between runs on all trains on turnaround > and since there were no in-floor wheel truing machines except at > Harrisburg Diesel Shop, the coaches and sleepers had to be pulled out of > the consists and placed on the shop track at Sunnyside and Chicago for > wheel replacements. I remember on a couple of occasions coaches were > shopped at Harrisburg and brought over the wheel truing machine in a > pinch. > > Since we didn't have computers to keep track in those days, no accurate > records were kept of mileage on wheels. The wheels were usually > replaced for flat spots and then condemned to scrap if worn past their > limits by the wheel shop (Haltoona), where the coach number had long > since been lost as to origin. > > Probably the most Herculean task for coach maintenance was keeping the > Tubular Train on the rails with a very short window of opportunity to > work on it each night at West Philadelphia between its daily runs. > > Make sense? > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted > Andrews > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:30 PM > To: ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance > > > I think that in the Broadway's case, there were a select number of cars > assigned to "protect" the train. Given a 10-12 hour layover, no > substantial > repairs could be preformed. Hence, substitute cars were available to > fill in > if the primary cars were out of commission. I believe that a select > number > of cars were used to protect a select number of train(s). Therefore, the > > quality and consistancy of equipment would be assured. > > Ted > > > >From: ndbprr@att.net > >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) > >Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance > >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:52:15 +0000 > > > >OK one of you passenger experts can help me out here. What was the > >availability of equipment in say the 50's for PRR passenger equipment? > > >How many miles were trucks good for before the wheelsets needed turning > > >or replacing or brakeshoes? How often was equipment down for major > repairs? > >The > >Broadway had a 10-12 hour layover in Chicago. Could major work be > >perfromed in > >this time? I don't think I have ever read anything about passenger car > >maintenance in any publication. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C324F8.223CDFD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Sunnyside had probably the largest running repair facility on = the road,=20 but by today's standards it was something out of the dark ages.  = There were=20 no such things as "lifts" that I can remember.  Everything was = jacked with=20 portable air jacks and the car end set on "tubs" while the truck was = rolled out=20 from under the car.  I don't remember exactly what they had at = Chicago, but=20 I am certain it was nowhere near as complete as Sunnyside if you could = call=20 Sunnyside "complete." 
 
Penn=20 Coach Yard at Philadelphia and Ivy City were also fair sized operations = but even=20 Philadelphia you could only get a maximum of four coaches on two tracks = under=20 roof at any one time and the roof had no sides except on one side where = there=20 was a shall workshop for tools and supplies.
 
Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati etc. all had very small rip = tracks for=20 working on coaches.
 
All=20 coaches were assigned to maintenance points for air brake, air = conditioning and=20 heating attention.  For example, West Philadelphia was assigned the = "clocker" cars.  Sunnyside was assigned the North Jersey Commuter = fleet,=20 the east west fleet and the New York-Washington Congo = fleet.
 
All=20 heavy repairs were carried out at Altoona, but Wilmington often had = programmed=20 repair projects such as RPO cars, truck overhauls, MU car heavy repairs = and the=20 like.
 
Probabably the biggest headache on the coach fleet was = maintaining the=20 water raising system which was a complex piping arrangement whereby = train air=20 was utilized to force water from the storage tank down below up to the = toilet(s)=20 and drinking fountain.  When a train would come uncoupled on the = road=20 during freezing weather, the steam connector would break off.  The = train=20 would frequently continue across the country with the rear half of the = train=20 unheated and several coaches would freeze up.  When this happened = the=20 ENTIRE undercar water raising system had to be replaced in each affected = coach.  This kept a gang of 15 or so people busy at West = Philadelphia=20 during the coldest winter months.
 
Electrically heated coaches were a Godsend to the railroads, = believe=20 me.
 
WDV
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = Martin=20 Skrzetuszewski [mailto:martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net] =
Sent:=20 Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:47 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Cc: = Bill=20 Volkmer
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car=20 maintenance

Bill,
I found your posting very interesting, = being (still)=20 involved in the
business over here.

What sort of facilities = were=20 available at Sunnyside & Chicago? Were the cars
lifted or = jacked=20 there?

Did east-west duty passenger cars get their Class = repairs only=20 at Altoona?

I assume that air conditioning and electrical = "exams"=20 (filter
changing/cleaning, testing etc.) were also carried out on = Due cars=20 during
the (what I consider (these days) to be a long 10 hour!) = turnround?=20 Were
individual cars allocated to a particular facility for light=20 maintenance
such as this?

Sorry if this reads like just a = load of=20 questions, but my curiosity is
aroused!

Regards,
Martin=20 Skrzetuszewski
London, England


----- Original Message=20 -----
From: Bill Volkmer = <bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com>
To: 'Ted=20 Andrews' <ted_andrews@msn.com>;=20 <ndbprr@att.net>;
<Prr-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, = May 27,=20 2003 8:03 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car = maintenance


>=20 This was basicly true across the board.  However, PRR = discontinued=20 ALL
> Class repairs to passenger coaches in 1957 and did not = resume=20 until 1959
> when a limited number of P85s and P70gs and Scheme = 6s went=20 through
> Altoona. In two years time the fleet had become VERY=20 downtrodden!  One
> exception to this rule was that the = P70fbrs=20 were continuously cycled
> through Wilmington Shops for truck=20 overhauls.  This amounted to jacking
> the coach up and = removing=20 both trucks.  The trucks were then completely
> = disassembled and=20 all bushings and wear plates were renewed. New springs
> were = applied,=20 the equalizers checked for cracks, new wheels and rebuilt
> = brake=20 rigging applied.  At the same time, all couplers and draft = gears
>=20 were removed and replaced.  Touch up painting and new plastic=20 seat
> cushion covers were also applied.  They were nice=20 cars.  Very smooth
> riding, but the lack of reclining = seats was a=20 bummer!
>
> Brake shoes were changed out between runs on = all=20 trains on turnaround
> and since there were no in-floor wheel = truing=20 machines except at
> Harrisburg Diesel Shop, the coaches and = sleepers=20 had to be pulled out of
> the consists and placed on the shop = track at=20 Sunnyside and Chicago for
> wheel replacements.  I remember = on a=20 couple of occasions coaches were
> shopped at Harrisburg and = brought=20 over the wheel truing machine in a
> pinch.
>
> = Since we=20 didn't have computers to keep track in those days, no accurate
> = records=20 were kept of mileage on wheels.  The wheels were usually
> = replaced=20 for flat spots and then condemned to scrap if worn past their
> = limits=20 by the wheel shop (Haltoona), where the coach number had long
> = since=20 been lost as to origin.
>
> Probably the most Herculean = task for=20 coach maintenance was keeping the
> Tubular Train on the rails = with a=20 very short window of opportunity to
> work on it each night at = West=20 Philadelphia between its daily runs.
>
> Make=20 sense?
>
> WDV
>
> -----Original = Message-----
>=20 From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On = Behalf Of=20 Ted
> Andrews
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:30 = PM
> To:=20 ndbprr@att.net; Prr-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger = car=20 maintenance
>
>
> I think that in the Broadway's = case, there=20 were a select number of cars
> assigned to "protect" the train. = Given a=20 10-12 hour layover, no
> substantial
> repairs could be = preformed.=20 Hence, substitute cars were available to
> fill in
> if = the=20 primary cars were out of commission. I believe that a select
>=20 number
> of cars were used to protect a select number of = train(s).=20 Therefore, the
>
> quality and consistancy of equipment = would be=20 assured.
>
> Ted
>
>
> >From:=20 ndbprr@att.net
> >To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk)
>=20 >Subject: [PRR] Passenger car maintenance
> >Date: Tue, 27 = May=20 2003 16:52:15 +0000
> >
> >OK one of you passenger = experts=20 can help me out here.  What was the
> >availability of = equipment=20 in say the 50's for PRR passenger equipment?
>
> >How = many=20 miles were trucks good for before the wheelsets needed = turning
>
>=20 >or replacing or brakeshoes?  How often was equipment down for = major
> repairs?
> >The
> >Broadway had a = 10-12 hour=20 layover in Chicago.  Could major work be
> >perfromed = in
>=20 >this time?  I don't think I have ever read anything about = passenger=20 car
> >maintenance in any publication.
> >
>=20 = >---------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>=20 >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>= =20 = _________________________________________________________________
>= MSN=20 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?= page=3Dfeatures/virus
>
>
>=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>=
>=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C324F8.223CDFD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Meadows Enginehouse and Camden Enginehouse...and Doug, Here is a rundown of all known PRR Pilot Stenciling. This came from the Keystone articles that dealt with this subject. You will note that the "EA"----- stencil did not come into use until 1951. Your pilots for the late 40's era would read NJ---- then the enginhouse stencil, possibly JYC (Jersey CIty), ME (Meadows), ETE (East Trenton), WH (West Morrisville) WE (46th St. Phiily), CTE (Camden) . There are others that were assigned to a nearby div but worked out of local enginehouses (ET---CTE and ET----ETE) It gets complicated, read on.... Here tiz http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/index-pilot.html Hope it is understandable.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:28:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors From: Jerry Britton We are fortunate to have "some" interior shots of passenger cars, though most are of lounge cars, and nearly all are black/white shots. Anyone know what color the typical bedroom walls would have been in the post-war cars? From the photos, I'm guessing an "institutional gray", though beige is possible. Also, the lounge windows typically had venetian blinds. What about the bedrooms -- venetian or roll down? I'm asking from a modeler's perspective. Though I don't plan on doing complete interiors (hey, it's N scale!), I do plan on doing partitions and shades. The partitions will be cardstock, but I imagine I should paint them either gray or beige. As for the shades, laser etched venetians are available, though I have seen masking tape used for decent roll-down shades. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:07:59 -0400 Jerry, I don't think you could go wrong with beige as a interior wall color. Floors varied from light to dark green(light in the isleway, dark under the seats). Bedrooms shades would be roll-downs, a light beige pastel base color with a pastel rose color accent pattern. Really taxing my memory, but this seems to be what I remember seeing the most. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:29 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors We are fortunate to have "some" interior shots of passenger cars, though most are of lounge cars, and nearly all are black/white shots. Anyone know what color the typical bedroom walls would have been in the post-war cars? From the photos, I'm guessing an "institutional gray", though beige is possible. Also, the lounge windows typically had venetian blinds. What about the bedrooms -- venetian or roll down? I'm asking from a modeler's perspective. Though I don't plan on doing complete interiors (hey, it's N scale!), I do plan on doing partitions and shades. The partitions will be cardstock, but I imagine I should paint them either gray or beige. As for the shades, laser etched venetians are available, though I have seen masking tape used for decent roll-down shades. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:18:02 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3250A.CE04AF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pale green was used extensively in coach and sleeper interiors along with the ever present beige. During the early 1960s the PRR hired an interior decorator who made extensive use of a peach color to contrast with the light green. I always thought that this gave the feeling of being in a pizza parlor while riding across the terrain! -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles [mailto:Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:08 AM To: Prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors Jerry, I don't think you could go wrong with beige as a interior wall color. Floors varied from light to dark green(light in the isleway, dark under the seats). Bedrooms shades would be roll-downs, a light beige pastel base color with a pastel rose color accent pattern. Really taxing my memory, but this seems to be what I remember seeing the most. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:29 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors We are fortunate to have "some" interior shots of passenger cars, though most are of lounge cars, and nearly all are black/white shots. Anyone know what color the typical bedroom walls would have been in the post-war cars? From the photos, I'm guessing an "institutional gray", though beige is possible. Also, the lounge windows typically had venetian blinds. What about the bedrooms -- venetian or roll down? I'm asking from a modeler's perspective. Though I don't plan on doing complete interiors (hey, it's N scale!), I do plan on doing partitions and shades. The partitions will be cardstock, but I imagine I should paint them either gray or beige. As for the shades, laser etched venetians are available, though I have seen masking tape used for decent roll-down shades. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ************************************************************************ **** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. ************************************************************************ **** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3250A.CE04AF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Pale=20 green was used extensively in coach and sleeper interiors along with the = ever=20 present beige.  During the early 1960s the PRR hired an interior = decorator=20 who made extensive use of a peach color to contrast with the light = green. =20 I always thought that this gave the feeling of being in a pizza parlor = while=20 riding across the terrain!
-----Original Message-----
From: = Burnley, Charles=20 [mailto:Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May = 28, 2003=20 10:08 AM
To: Prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR]=20 Passenger Car Interiors

Jerry,

I don't think you could go wrong with = beige as a=20 interior wall color. Floors
varied from
light to dark = green(light in the=20 isleway, dark under the seats).
Bedrooms shades would be = roll-downs, a=20 light beige pastel base color with a
pastel rose color accent=20 pattern.
Really taxing my memory, but this seems to be what I = remember=20 seeing the
most.

Buzz


-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]
Sent= :=20 Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:29 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: [PRR] = Passenger Car Interiors


We are fortunate to have "some" = interior=20 shots of passenger cars, though
most are of lounge cars, and nearly = all are=20 black/white shots.

Anyone know what color the typical bedroom = walls=20 would have been in the
post-war cars? From the photos, I'm guessing = an=20 "institutional gray", though
beige is possible.

Also, the = lounge=20 windows typically had venetian blinds. What about the
bedrooms -- = venetian=20 or roll down?

I'm asking from a modeler's perspective. Though I = don't=20 plan on doing
complete interiors (hey, it's N scale!), I do plan on = doing=20 partitions and
shades.

The partitions will be cardstock, but = I=20 imagine I should paint them either
gray or beige.

As for the = shades,=20 laser etched venetians are available, though I have seen
masking = tape used=20 for decent roll-down=20 = shades.
-----------------------------------------------------------Jerry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS  =20 jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing=20 list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandis= e=20 Service" - Model railroad products...
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com<= /A>


----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
************= ****************************************************************
This = e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is=20 proprietary,
privileged, confidential  or subject to copyright = belonging to Conectiv or
its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail = is=20 intended solely for the use of
the person to which it is = addressed. =20 If you are not the intended recipient
of this email, you are hereby = notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying or other = action=20 taken in relation to the contents of and attachments
to this e-mail = is=20 prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received = this
e-mail in=20 error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently = delete
the=20 original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Conectiv=20 policy
expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or = offensive=20 statements
and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by = email
communications.  Conectiv will not accept any liability = in=20 respect of such
communications. The employee responsible will be = personally=20 liable for any
damages or other liability so=20 = arising.
*************************************************************= ***************


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For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3250A.CE04AF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:14:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" --0-1091676305-1054142048=:36992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List members Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the Steel City" I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility is provided on the rear of the map insert". What map insert? There was none in my copy of the book, albeit obtained second hand. Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make a photocopy for me? I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc. Thanks. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1091676305-1054142048=:36992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
List members
 
Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the Steel City"  I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility is provided on the rear of the map insert". 
 
What map insert?  There was none in my copy of the book, albeit obtained second hand.  Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make a photocopy for me?  I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc.
 
Thanks.
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1091676305-1054142048=:36992-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" List members Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the Steel City" I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility is provided on the rear of the map insert". What map insert? There was none in my copy of the book, albeit obtained second hand. Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make a photocopy for me? I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc. Thanks. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:18:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" From: Jerry Britton On 5/28/03 1:14 PM, Ronald Di Orio (prr2249@yahoo.com) wrote: > Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the Steel > City" I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility is provided > on the rear of the map insert". > > What map insert? There was none in my copy of the book, albeit obtained > second hand. Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make a photocopy > for me? I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc. > If I recall, this book was given to all attendees at one of the conventions. A large fold out map came with it. If you ordered it after the fact, I don't think the map was included. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:41:49 -0400 I believe the map is available separately from PRRT&HS. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:19 PM To: Ronald Di Orio; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" On 5/28/03 1:14 PM, Ronald Di Orio (prr2249@yahoo.com) wrote: > Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the Steel > City" I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility is provided > on the rear of the map insert". > > What map insert? There was none in my copy of the book, albeit obtained > second hand. Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make a photocopy > for me? I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc. > If I recall, this book was given to all attendees at one of the conventions. A large fold out map came with it. If you ordered it after the fact, I don't think the map was included. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:19:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Penn Texas via/around Dayton --0-305367313-1054160368=:48298 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rick and all youse gize, According to stories in issues of the Xenia (Ohio) Daily Gazette published during June and July 1949, PRR announced that beginning Aug. 1, 1949 all "scheduled" through trains traveling through Xenia would be powered by cleaner, less-polluting diesel-electric locomotives. This decision was in reaction to frequent and numerous complaints about the soot left behind by the PRR's coal-burning locomotives. A division town, one of this nation's earliest rail hubs, trains operated by the PRR Co. and the Baltimore & Ohio operated uncomfortably close to Xenia's residential areas and non-railroad businesses Tracks of the Springfield branch, Ohio's first cross-state rail line, were laid in the easternmost northbound lane of Detroit Street (U.S. 68), Xenia's major north-sound thorougfare taking scheduled Cincinnati-Springfield freight and passenger traffic through backyards of the city's well-to-do north end until August 1953. I don't know when, exactly, the last Pennsy steam locomotive passed through Xenia. For nearly a century, the yards and shops in Xenia used by the Little Miami RR Co., the Panhandle Route and the PRR Co. were dominated by the massive 25 to 30 foot high timber coal dock which rose in the center of the Pennsy yard just west of the 1850 Little Miami an Columbus & Xenia passenger station. It was an curved, steeply inclined trestle more than 500 feet long that ended with two coaling stations. A coal-fillled open-top hopper spotted at either one could fill tenders of locomotives on tracks running parallel to the dock. It had been rebuilt after a July 1939 fire. It was razed in the summer of 1951 after installation of its nearly invisible replacement, an above-ground diesel tank of unknown capacity to service the three? four? six? Fairbanks Morse H-10-44 or H-12-44 shifters assigned there during the early 1950s. This is why I've chosen July 1949 as the focus date of my PRR modeling. I can run steam with head held high. Tom V. ntown and past the GRe Many thanks to Dan Cupper for his history below of the Penn Texas. It ran through Dayton and Xenia (at least in later years), and was "famous" around there for never being photographed in steam. This is finally explained by the fact its name changed to Penn Texas in December 1948, and dieselization of Lines West mainline passenger trains was under way by then. Still needed - verification whether the Penn Texas ran "around Dayton" on the Bradford line at first. Back then, some Blue Ribbon trains transiting western Ohio avoided the high grades between New Paris and Xenia and used the low grade freight routing via New Paris - Bradford - Urbana - Columbus. We know that, by the 1960's, all remaining passenger trains ran via Dayton. In this era, it seemed the Penn Texas would be handling more headend equipment and less sleepers than the Spirit of St. Louis, whose headend was mostly a working RPO. In a message dated 5/22/03 6:06:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: The Penn Texas > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:52:56 -0400 > > > --------------030400030808070909040501 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Greetings to Ron, Jerry and the List: > > Through PRR service to Texas and Mexico began on July 7, 1946, with much > fanfare and the establishment of a through train named the Sunshine > Special (which was the name of an existing MP train), which ran via > PRR-St. Louis-MP-Dallas-T&P-Laredo-NdeM. It included: > -- a sleeper-lounge NY-Dallas-Fort Worth > -- coaches NY-DFW, NY-San Anton, Wash.-Houston > -- sleepers NY-Houston, NY-San Anton., NY-El Paso, NY-Mexico City, > Wash.-Dallas, and Wash.-Houston. > -- diner NY-DFW > > It operated as Trains 3 and 4 on PRR and, as mentioned, assumed the > existing name of the MP train. In April 1948, it ceased being a through > train and the coaches, lounge and diner stopped running through to MP, > but the sleepers continued to provide through service. Coach pasengers > could still connect, but they had to change at St. Louis. On PRR, the > train continued to carry the name Sunshine Special. > > In summer 1948, the connection was changed to meet MP's Texas Eagle > (MP's Sunshine Special continued to operate under that name on MP). On > PRR, the train name was changed to Texas Eagle (still numbered 3 and 4 > on PRR). Even though PRR used the MP train name, only the sleepers > continued to run through, and no through train was re-established. > > PRR subsequently renamed its train the Penn Texas by December of that > same year (still numbered PRR 3 and 4). The Texas Eagle still ran on the > MP and the two trains continued to exchange sleepers, but again, no > through train service was reinstated. > > Through Texas-NY sleeper service via MP-PRR finally ended in 1961, but > the Penn Texas, still carrying numbers 3 and 4, continued to run right > up into Penn Central days, and still provided a change-trains connection > with MP's Texas Eagle at St. Louis. The Penn Texas was finally > discontinued in late June 1970, less than a year before the coming of > Amtrak. > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PennsyWest-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-305367313-1054160368=:48298 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Rick and all youse gize,
 
   According to stories in issues of the Xenia (Ohio) Daily Gazette published during June and July 1949, PRR announced that beginning Aug. 1, 1949 all "scheduled" through trains traveling through Xenia would be powered by cleaner, less-polluting diesel-electric locomotives. This decision was in reaction to frequent and numerous complaints about the soot left behind by the PRR's coal-burning locomotives. A division town, one of this nation's earliest rail hubs, trains operated by the PRR Co. and the Baltimore & Ohio operated uncomfortably close to Xenia's residential areas and non-railroad businesses
   Tracks of the Springfield branch, Ohio's first cross-state rail line, were laid in the easternmost northbound lane of Detroit Street (U.S. 68), Xenia's major north-sound thorougfare taking scheduled Cincinnati-Springfield freight and passenger traffic through backyards of the city's well-to-do  north end until August 1953.
   I don't know when, exactly, the last Pennsy steam locomotive passed through Xenia. For nearly a century, the yards and shops in Xenia used by the Little Miami RR  Co., the Panhandle Route and the PRR Co. were dominated by the massive 25 to 30 foot high timber coal dock which rose in the center of the Pennsy yard just west of the 1850 Little Miami an Columbus & Xenia passenger station. It was an curved, steeply inclined trestle more than 500 feet long that ended with two coaling stations. A coal-fillled open-top hopper spotted at either one could fill tenders of locomotives on tracks running parallel to the dock. It had been rebuilt after a July 1939 fire. It was razed in the summer of 1951 after installation of its nearly invisible replacement, an above-ground diesel tank of unknown capacity to service the three? four? six? Fairbanks Morse H-10-44 or H-12-44 shifters assigned there during the early 1950s.
   This is why I've chosen July 1949 as the focus date of my PRR modeling. I can run steam with head held high.
 
Tom V.
 
 
 
 
 ntown and past the GRe

Many thanks to Dan Cupper for his history below of the Penn Texas.  It ran
through Dayton and Xenia (at least in later years), and was "famous" around
there for never being photographed in steam.  This is finally explained by the
fact its name changed to Penn Texas in December 1948, and dieselization of Lines
West mainline passenger trains was under way by then.

Still needed - verification whether the Penn Texas ran "around Dayton" on the
Bradford line at first.  Back then, some Blue Ribbon trains transiting
western Ohio avoided the high grades between New Paris and Xenia and used the low
grade freight routing via New Paris - Bradford - Urbana - Columbus.

We know that, by the 1960's, all remaining passenger trains ran via Dayton. 
In this era, it seemed the Penn Texas would be handling more headend equipment
and less sleepers
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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-305367313-1054160368=:48298-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Hello John, You were talking about how some PL signals go "dark" or outer lights flicker before changing aspects. I remember the westbound home signals SF interlocking used to do that. They would go dark for about 2 seconds then go red. With you doing the Phila area, you won't have to worry about "AP" (approach lit) PL signals. We'll have a few on our Altoona to Cresson layout. I was trying to come up with an excuse to put a few "flashing aspect" PLs on the layout but there were none between Alto and Cresson. I don't know how serious you are about signals but there are a lot of signals around 30th street. Lots of dwarfs. 100s of them. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:11:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" Ron, Yes, there was a insert in the book originally. It was about 2' x 3' : one side was a large RR map of the Pittsburgh area showing tracks, yards, facilities and industries; the other had more detailed track, yard and interlocking diagrams. I am checking to see if the PRRT&HS still has any extra copies for sale. Will let you know. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Di Orio To: PRR Fax ; PRR Talk Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:14 PM Subject: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" List members Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the Steel City" I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility is provided on the rear of the map insert". What map insert? There was none in my copy of the book, albeit obtained second hand. Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make a photocopy for me? I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc. Thanks. Ron Di Orio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:11:48 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C32566.223E3560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, Yes, there was a insert in the book originally. It was about 2' x 3' : = one side was a large RR map of the Pittsburgh area showing tracks, yards, facilities and industries; the other had = more detailed track, yard and interlocking=20 diagrams. I am checking to see if the PRRT&HS still has any extra copies for sale. = Will let you know. =20 Jack Consoli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: PRR Fax ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:14 PM Subject: [PRR] "The Pennsy in the Steel City" List members Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in the = Steel City" I find the statement that " a track diagram of the facility = is provided on the rear of the map insert". =20 What map insert? There was none in my copy of the book, albeit = obtained second hand. Was there a map insert and if so, can anyone make = a photocopy for me? I would be glad to pay price, postage, etc. Thanks. Ron Di Orio -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C32566.223E3560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,
 
Yes, there was a insert in the book = originally. It=20 was about 2' x 3' : one side was a large RR map of the = Pittsburgh
area showing tracks, yards, facilities = and=20 industries;  the other had more detailed track, yard and = interlocking=20
diagrams.
 
I am checking to see if = the PRRT&HS still=20 has any extra copies for sale. Will let you know.
 
Jack Consoli
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 = 1:14=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] "The Pennsy in = the Steel=20 City"

List members
 
Looking at the captions on some of the photos in "The Pennsy in = the Steel=20 City"  I find the statement that " a track diagram of the = facility is=20 provided on the rear of the map insert". 
 
What map insert?  There was none in my copy of the book, = albeit=20 obtained second hand.  Was there a map insert and if so, can = anyone make=20 a photocopy for me?  I would be glad to pay price, postage, = etc.
 
Thanks.
 
Ron Di Orio

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Free on= line=20 calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C32566.223E3560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Trust Plates List, I know there have been several people that produce(d) brass etched Trust Plates for PRR model Locos, but what about other equipment, ie Cabins, Freight Cars etc.? The Pennsy had many series of Trust Plates, from A-Z? to double lettered. I think it would be pretty difficult/expensive to make etched plates for each. But what about decal Trust Plates? Anyone ever produce these? Could be something for a custom decal maker to look into. Would it be possible to take a digital photo of an actual Trust Plate, edit the photo to represent each of the series of plates (just change the letter) and reduce the photos to HO Scale and print them using an Alps Printer. It all sounds easy enough but there would be stumbling blocks. There were Cast Plates and there were Aluminum sheet metal Plates. One would have to know which series was on each plate. One would also have to know which finacial institute was on each series. This info may be out there? Who wants to volunteer a few minutes of computer work? I can't attempt this with my webtv setup. email me. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:42:13 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR Talk Station at Reading, Pa From: Beth Caples Thank you all who answered my questions concerning this station! I would also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the beaten path) along this same route? Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:56:28 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Trust Plates The financial institution information may be available in old copies of Moody's Manuals. I have some from the 1960's and 1970's. John Ryan Gary Mittner wrote: >List, > > I know there have been several people that produce(d) brass etched >Trust Plates for PRR model Locos, but what about other equipment, ie >Cabins, Freight Cars etc.? The Pennsy had many series of Trust Plates, >from A-Z? to double lettered. I think it would be pretty >difficult/expensive to make etched plates for each. But what about decal >Trust Plates? Anyone ever produce these? Could be something for a >custom decal maker to look into. Would it be possible to take a digital >photo of an actual Trust Plate, edit the photo to represent each of the >series of plates (just change the letter) and reduce the photos to HO >Scale and print them using an Alps Printer. It all sounds easy enough >but there would be stumbling blocks. There were Cast Plates and there >were Aluminum sheet metal Plates. One would have to know which series >was on each plate. One would also have to know which finacial institute >was on each series. This info may be out there? > > Who wants to volunteer a few minutes of computer work? I can't >attempt this with my webtv setup. email me. Thanks, Gary > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:57:15 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Trust Plates The financial institution information may be available in old copies of Moody's Manuals. I have some from the 1960's and 1970's. John Ryan Gary Mittner wrote: >List, > > I know there have been several people that produce(d) brass etched >Trust Plates for PRR model Locos, but what about other equipment, ie >Cabins, Freight Cars etc.? The Pennsy had many series of Trust Plates, >from A-Z? to double lettered. I think it would be pretty >difficult/expensive to make etched plates for each. But what about decal >Trust Plates? Anyone ever produce these? Could be something for a >custom decal maker to look into. Would it be possible to take a digital >photo of an actual Trust Plate, edit the photo to represent each of the >series of plates (just change the letter) and reduce the photos to HO >Scale and print them using an Alps Printer. It all sounds easy enough >but there would be stumbling blocks. There were Cast Plates and there >were Aluminum sheet metal Plates. One would have to know which series >was on each plate. One would also have to know which finacial institute >was on each series. This info may be out there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Talk Station at Reading, Pa Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:58:01 +0000 several pieces including I believe and N6Aor B and a couple of passenger cars at the RR museum on the NW side of Columbus Ohio > Thank you all who answered my questions concerning this station! I would > also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 > through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. > Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the > beaten path) along this same route? > Thanks, John Caples > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:11:14 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] More PRR along I-70 Greetings to John, Jerry, and the List: Not equipment, but some more I-70 PRR highlights: Columbus, Ohio It's fairly easy to take a quick detour off I-70 to the Columbus Airport. If you follow a service road to the southeast end of the airport property, you'll find the original Port Columbus Airport terminal building intact, converted for office space. It is exactly as shown in surviving photos and the 1929 Grif Teller PRR calendar painting, which illustrated the rail-to-air transfer when PRR's Airway Limited connected with Transcontinental Air Transport to offer 48-hour coast-to-coast travel. The ex-PRR Panhandle main line, now Ohio Central, tracks are right across the street, and you can see how easy it was for detraining PRR passengers to walk the short distance to the waiting TAT Ford Tri-Motor plane. Zanesville to Bellaire, Ohio (opposite Wheeling, W.Va.) Definitely need more time than a quick stop off the interstate provides, but this was Ohio River & Western narrow-gauge territory and the abandoned right-of-way can still be seen in places. Wheeling W.Va. If you have an extra half-hour while you're passing through Wheeling, W.Va., it's fairly easy to find a surviving ex-PRR tunnel on active track. From the Interstate(s), there are two ways to get there. If using I-70 proper through town, exit into the city and follow local streets south until you come to the only tracks left in town, then turn around and follow them northeast, using parallel and cross streets, and you'll eventually come to the tunnel. If using I-470, the bypass, exit the interstate and start to drive north on local streets toward Wheeling until you come to the tracks, then follow the directions above. This is a remnant of PRR's former Wheeling Terminal Railway. If you have more time to explore, it's not too difficult to follow local streets to trace the ex-PRR trackage on the north end of the tunnel. Connected to the outside world only via ex-B&O trackage on the south end, this ex-PRR line leads to a small industrial park and what used to be an interchange (and once upon a time, a wye) with the now-abandoned Pittsburgh-Wheeling line of the B&O, now a hiking-biking trail in and around Wheeling. (By the way, the very substantial ex-B&O passenger station still stands in the city, but all the B&O tracks leading to it are gone.) North of the industrial park, the ex-PRR line is abandoned, but it previously passed through two more tunnels and then crossed the Ohio into Martin's Ferry, Ohio, on a bridge that no longer exists. From there, it connected with another PRR line that ran north to Steubenville, Ohio, and a connection with the Panhandle main line. If you drive to the north end of Wheeling, you can observe the northernmost portal of the northernmost WTRy tunnel at the point where it exited the mountain high on a bluff, and from that, you can judge the height and the angle it took in crossing the river. A different ex-PRR route into town from the north, the Wheeling Branch, which followed the south bank of the Ohio from Weirton Junction, has been long abandoned. You can see Weirton Jct. and the beginning of the Wheeling Branch on the extreme left side of the 1953 Grif Teller PRR calendar painting, which shows the Panhandle main line crossing the Ohio at Weirton W.Va./Steubenville, Ohio. If you were to have the time to drive up to that area (28 miles), you can almost replicate the scene of that painting because the substantial 1926 steel bridge over the Ohio is still there and still used. Probably not a viable detour with family considerations, but it is possible to take U.S. Route 22 from there to Pittsburgh. Washington, Pa. Pennsylvania Trolley Museum north of the city is located adjacent to the former PRR Chartiers Branch (Pittsburgh area to Washington, Pa.), which is still active and now served by a shortline operator. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Beth Caples wrote: >I would >also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 >through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. >Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the >beaten path) along this same route? >Thanks, John Caples > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:21:22 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] PRR on I-70, Part II Greetings to John, Jerry and the List: More PRR remnants to see along I-70. Indiana: If you have time to drive one direction or the other on any portion of U.S. 40 between Indianapolis and Richmond, the highway parallels the ex-PRR St. Louis main line for most of the way. The line has been abandoned, but in many of the towns you can find strong evidence of the railroad presence via surviving stations, bridges, and concrete overhead overpasses (Cambridge City, for example) that were the result of massive grade-crossing separation projects in the teens. There is even a crumbling interlocking tower (barely) standing at, I believe, Greenfield. Family component for this route--plenty of frozen custard stands and quaint shops and antique stores along U.S. 40 that you won't find on I-70. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 06:34:45 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Trust Plates Gary & list, I am currently PRR Trust Plates made in S Scale with at least 8 different trust letters on the sheet. He is a very capable person from north of the border named Andy Malette. http://www.mlwservices.ca/ While he is also an S Scaler, he was produced some of his items in other scales as well. Here is the best part. When you get the parts from him, the parts are ready to use. There is NO trimming, filing, or tab marks. The etching process he uses makes everything right to size and clean. He currently makes boxcar detail parts and Canadian loco number plates in S and HO. Perhaps you want to lead the way with getting HO Trust Plates made with him. Why have a decal when you can get the third dimension of depth with the etched plate? BTW, I had an Alps MD-5000 printer. I sold it because I did not think it made the quality decals like it was supposed to. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:55:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C? --part1_3b.38c69395.2c075d29_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did the Pennsy ever use the steam ejector air-conditioning system? Everything I have states/shows either ice activated or mechanical air-conditionig. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_3b.38c69395.2c075d29_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Did the Pennsy ever use the steam ejector air-c= onditioning system?  Everything I have states/shows either ice activate= d or mechanical air-conditionig.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_3b.38c69395.2c075d29_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:12:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Dave writes, I don't know how serious you are about signals but there are a lot of signals around 30th street. Lots of dwarfs. 100s of them. ++++++++ I'm just getting started; I have bought a few of the Oregon Rail Supply position-light target kits, and am trying to get up the courage to assemble the tiny things! One thing, I think there are dwarf kits to be had, but not sure I've seen pedestal type signals, which I imagine must be pretty common around 30th St, no? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C? Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:20:31 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C325C3.8EA7D500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No. That was used by the Santa Fe and UP and some of the other western roads. Not on PRR. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:55 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C? Did the Pennsy ever use the steam ejector air-conditioning system? Everything I have states/shows either ice activated or mechanical air-conditionig. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C325C3.8EA7D500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
No.  That was used by the Santa Fe and UP and some of the = other=20 western roads.  Not on PRR.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:55=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Steam = Ejector=20 A/C?

  Did the Pennsy ever use the steam = ejector=20 air-conditioning system?  Everything I have states/shows either = ice=20 activated or mechanical air-conditionig.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346=20
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C325C3.8EA7D500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:30:35 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Magazine and Book Orders Effective June 1, 2003. All mail orders for books and magazines should now be directed to The Stanleys, as it had been in the recent past. This will provide all members and distributors a single point of contact, greatly simplifying the system for everyone. The Stanleys, 558 Summit Drive, Lewistown, PA 17044-1252 The Society's new and improved e-store offering back issues of "The Keystone," and all current Society books will soon be operational again. In addition, new memberships, membership renewals and donations will be able to be made online. Watch for future announcement. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:44:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals On Thu, 29 May 2003 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > One thing, I think there are dwarf kits to be had, but not sure I've > seen pedestal type signals, which I imagine must be pretty > common around 30th St, no? I have a Swedish etched dwarf, damn close to a PRR dwarf, no lamps, just the body, which I picked up for 40SEK (about $5) for it's either 2 or 4 bodies, I can check. I know of no pedestal or dwarf kits other than the NJ International dwarf, which is oversize. I suspect I will be importing a few hundred dollars worth of the etchings for myself at some point for lack of a better answer. This is HO I'm speaking of, BTW. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:54:21 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO There is a PRR Parlor car at the Dennison depot: http://www.dennisondepot.org/ And here's a link to the Ohio RR Museum noted by ndbprr http://www.ohiorailwaymuseum.org/ Tom Hayden >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Talk Station at Reading, Pa >From: >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:58:01 +0000 > >several pieces including I believe and N6Aor B and a couple of passenger cars >at the RR museum on the NW side of Columbus Ohio > > Thank you all who answered my questions concerning this station! I would > > also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 > > through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. > > Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the > > beaten path) along this same route? > > Thanks, John Caples > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:05:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO There's a caboose in (I think it was Brookville?) just west of Dayton http://prr.dementia.org/places/panhandle-div/1231_014.jpg This was somewhere east of Xenia: http://prr.dementia.org/places/panhandle-div/1231_018.jpg The earliest pictures in this directory should be the PRR station in Richmond, IN, if I remember correctly. I was on my way home from western Ohio and diverted a bit west before following ex-PRR lines and grades as far as somewhere just east of Newark. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] Interesting site... Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:33:32 -0500 I just ran across this site and thought it might of interest http://www.apex-ephemera.com/RailroadSalesAgent Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:40:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: X-23 box cars From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Westerfield has produced a variety of PRR X-23 cars. There are a fair number of these listed in the 1953 ORER. So a question: By the late '40s and early '50s, had all the X-23s received Youngstown doors and new roofs? Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: X-23 box cars Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:08:58 +0000 Don Harper asked: By the late '40s and early '50s, had all the X-23s received Youngstown doors and new roofs? 1. There are NO dashes in PRR car classes, unless you're taking about Class H- 2A, which was N&W anyway. 2. No. See Ed Martin's photo on Rob Schoenberg's website of PRR 499277 in work service (photo taken 1974): http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html? photo=prr_499277_X23_ed_martin.jpg&fr= The car clearly has a CRECo door and original roof. To be safe, always refer to a photo if you model Class X23 boxcars after 1940. These cars picked up door, roof, and sheathing variations as they were shopped, with some cars retaining the original truss design, bottom "sheathing retainers," and vertical sheathing until retirement; other cars lost the horizontal truss members and "sheathing retainers" and received horizontal sheathing, and one car has been documented having both sheathing variations on the same car. ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:31:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: X-23 box cars >Westerfield has produced a variety of PRR X-23 cars. There are a fair >number of these listed in the 1953 ORER. So a question: > >By the late '40s and early '50s, had all the X-23s received Youngstown doors >and new roofs? Don, The terms I kept hearing from Al were that "most" or "a majority" of post WWII cars should have the "new roof"...These were applied to many cars in the 1928 rebuildings, along with the Youngstown doors (10053)...however, not every car was rebuilt (10054), and some didn't get new doors (10052) and some only got new doors (10055)... Even in 1945, when there were 5602 cars, this was the 5th most populated XM class following the X29, X26, X25 and X31, so it will be rare for multiple X23s to show up in one train... By October of 1953, there were a total of 17 left in various classes...So for my layout, I'm working on creating the impression that all X23s were not the same...I bought 2 each of the 10052, 10054, and 10054. And as Ben says, model from photos! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:41:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Steel City Map --0-173430611-1054230082=:60487 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who offered to help with information concerning the Steel City Map. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-173430611-1054230082=:60487 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks to all who offered to help with information concerning the Steel City Map. 
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-173430611-1054230082=:60487-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Steel City Map Thanks to all who offered to help with information concerning the Steel City Map. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:55:45 -0400 I almost forgot! My friend that bought the remains of the N6 also has several nicely restored PRR cabins at his brother's house on US Rt 40, a few miles East of Cambridge. From I-70, go north on I-77 to the US 40 Exit. Then head East on 40 until you see some PRR cabins on a piece of track on the right. Can'i miss them! They are on private property but just off the highway so it will be easy to stop and photograph them. Fred Rea Columbus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hayden" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "Beth Caples" Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO > There is a PRR Parlor car at the Dennison depot: > http://www.dennisondepot.org/ > > And here's a link to the Ohio RR Museum noted by ndbprr > http://www.ohiorailwaymuseum.org/ > > Tom Hayden > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Talk Station at Reading, Pa > >From: > >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:58:01 +0000 > > > >several pieces including I believe and N6Aor B and a couple of passenger cars > >at the RR museum on the NW side of Columbus Ohio > > > Thank you all who answered my questions concerning this station! I would > > > also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 > > > through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. > > > Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the > > > beaten path) along this same route? > > > Thanks, John Caples > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:03:00 -0500 There is a former Pennsylvania Heavyweight Pullman, at the end in MOW service, sitting forlorn on a siding in Grand Rapids, Ohio. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Rea [mailto:frea@insight.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 12:56 PM To: Tom Hayden; PRR-Talk; Beth Caples Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO I almost forgot! My friend that bought the remains of the N6 also has several nicely restored PRR cabins at his brother's house on US Rt 40, a few miles East of Cambridge. From I-70, go north on I-77 to the US 40 Exit. Then head East on 40 until you see some PRR cabins on a piece of track on the right. Can'i miss them! They are on private property but just off the highway so it will be easy to stop and photograph them. Fred Rea Columbus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hayden" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "Beth Caples" Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR equipment in OHIO > There is a PRR Parlor car at the Dennison depot: > http://www.dennisondepot.org/ > > And here's a link to the Ohio RR Museum noted by ndbprr > http://www.ohiorailwaymuseum.org/ > > Tom Hayden > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Talk Station at Reading, Pa > >From: > >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:58:01 +0000 > > > >several pieces including I believe and N6Aor B and a couple of passenger cars > >at the RR museum on the NW side of Columbus Ohio > > > Thank you all who answered my questions concerning this station! I would > > > also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 > > > through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. > > > Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the > > > beaten path) along this same route? > > > Thanks, John Caples > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Centipede Question Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:13:18 +0000 Guys: Were they different versions in Baldwin Centipedes that the Pennsy owned? Overland models came out with a set of Centipedes (with and without antennas) but also labeled "(Type II)". Was there a type I? If so, what were the differences? Which PRR Centipedes were type I and which were type II? Thanks in advance! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:18:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipede Question On Thu, 29 May 2003, Ted Andrews wrote: > Guys: > > Were they different versions in Baldwin Centipedes that the Pennsy owned? Yes. > Overland models came out with a set of Centipedes (with and without > antennas) but also labeled "(Type II)". Was there a type I? If so, what were > the differences? Which PRR Centipedes were type I and which were type II? The most obvious difference was in the orientation of the large vent on the sides of the units. the "bar" running horizontally along the vent was centered in one order (I think the first) and offset in the other. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Yes Derrick, We are talking about HO scale signals. There was one guy who did make scale PRR dwarf signals. He custom made all of the different style PRR signal heads. He took a lot of orders (and money) from PRRT&HS members at one of the conventions and no one his seen him since. Most never got thier signals or money back. Hopefully some model company will do a scale dwarf and pedestal signal. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling signals Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:20:04 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32630.7466B680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, I paid for 7 dwarves and got the witch instead. Elden -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:04 PM To: shadow@dementia.org; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals Yes Derrick, We are talking about HO scale signals. There was one guy who did make scale PRR dwarf signals. He custom made all of the different style PRR signal heads. He took a lot of orders (and money) from PRRT&HS members at one of the conventions and no one his seen him since. Most never got thier signals or money back. Hopefully some model company will do a scale dwarf and pedestal signal. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32630.7466B680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Modeling signals

Yes, I paid for 7 dwarves and got the witch = instead.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net]<= /FONT>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:04 PM
To: shadow@dementia.org; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals


Yes Derrick,

      We are talking about = HO scale signals. There was one guy who did
make scale PRR dwarf signals. He custom made all of = the different style
PRR signal heads. He took a lot of orders (and = money) from PRRT&HS
members at one of the conventions and no one his = seen him since. Most
never got thier signals or money back. Hopefully = some model company will
do a scale dwarf and pedestal signal.

Dave


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32630.7466B680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:35:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C Answered --part1_14b.1fcb2098.2c07e530_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the responses. Steam A/C was definitely was not used on the Pennsy. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_14b.1fcb2098.2c07e530_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to all for the responses.  Steam A/C was definitely was not used= on the Pennsy.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_14b.1fcb2098.2c07e530_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:20:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals On Thu, 29 May 2003 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > We are talking about HO scale signals. There was one guy who did > make scale PRR dwarf signals. He custom made all of the different style > PRR signal heads. He took a lot of orders (and money) from PRRT&HS > members at one of the conventions and no one his seen him since. Most > never got thier signals or money back. Hopefully some model company will > do a scale dwarf and pedestal signal. I should take pictures of the etched signal and post them; Perhaps someone will have ideas for lighting it. Best I can come up with is fiber optic, and i don't like that. Maybe surface mount LEDs on a thin circuit board would be better. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: RE: [PRR] Centipede Question Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:35:02 -0400 Ted: >From what I can tell Derrick is right. Although I have never seen it in print, the photo evidence seems to show that only the first pair built (and maybe the second) were Type 1. Apparently, they were soon modified to Type II specs. Every photo of the Type I shows the loco brand new and shiny. Later photos show the first pair nasty and grimy as well as modified into a Type II. Bill Box On Thu, 29 May 2003, Ted Andrews wrote: > Guys: > > Were they different versions in Baldwin Centipedes that the Pennsy owned? Yes. > Overland models came out with a set of Centipedes (with and without > antennas) but also labeled "(Type II)". Was there a type I? If so, what were > the differences? Which PRR Centipedes were type I and which were type II? The most obvious difference was in the orientation of the large vent on the sides of the units. the "bar" running horizontally along the vent was centered in one order (I think the first) and offset in the other. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:47:05 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C: Hmmm, never say never on the PRR --------------020902090906020001080006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to Evan, Bill, Jerry and the List: The copy in a mid-1930s PRR brochure titled "The Inside Story of Air Conditioning" touts the railroad's "largest fleet of air-conditioned trains in the world" (750 Pullmans, diners, and coaches) and reads as follows: "Three systems... Several air-conditioning systems have been developed to a high degree of efficiency. They are the Ice Activated, the Mechanical Compression, and the Steam Jet systems. The Pennsylvania Railroad uses all three." "The Steam Jet System ... In this system, refrigeration is produced by spraying water into a partially evacuated, heavily insulated chamber. Here the water evaporates. In so doing, it lowers the temperature of the remaining water and this cool water is circulated in the overhead air-conditioning units. The steam jet is employed to evacuate the chamber and to compress the water vapor and steam to the slightly higher pressure of the condenser, where the heat of the steam and vapor is given off in the atmosphere. The air circulation in this system is the same as that used in the other two systems." I'm wondering if this is the same as what Evan described as a "steam ejector" system. Sounds awfully close but I'm no techno-guy. And again, this was a 1930s brochure--it's entirely possible that PRR found the other two systems to be more suited to its needs and disposed of this "steam jet" method early, and thus perhaps by the time that Bill V. came on the scene, the only systems left on PRR were the other two. Any thoughts? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks to all for the responses. Steam A/C was definitely was not > used on the Pennsy. > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 --------------020902090906020001080006 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to Evan, Bill, Jerry and the List:

The copy in a mid-1930s PRR brochure titled "The Inside Story of Air Conditioning" touts the railroad's "largest fleet of air-conditioned trains in the world" (750 Pullmans, diners, and coaches) and reads as follows:

"Three systems... Several air-conditioning systems have been developed to a high degree of efficiency. They are the Ice Activated, the Mechanical Compression, and the Steam Jet systems. The Pennsylvania Railroad uses all three."
<snip>
"The Steam Jet System ... In this system, refrigeration is produced by spraying water into a partially evacuated, heavily insulated chamber. Here the water evaporates. In so doing, it lowers the temperature of the remaining water and this cool water is circulated in the overhead air-conditioning units. The steam jet is employed to evacuate the chamber and to compress the water vapor and steam to the slightly higher pressure of the condenser, where the heat of the steam and vapor is given off in the atmosphere. The air circulation in this system is the same as that used in the other two systems."

I'm wondering if this is the same as what Evan described as a "steam ejector" system. Sounds awfully close but I'm no techno-guy. And again, this was a 1930s brochure--it's entirely possible that PRR found the other two systems to be more suited to its needs and disposed of this "steam jet" method early, and thus perhaps by the time that Bill V. came on the scene, the only systems left on PRR were the other two. Any thoughts?
 
Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.


RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

Thanks to all for the responses.  Steam A/C was definitely was not used on the Pennsy.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346

--------------020902090906020001080006-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Centipede question Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:34:35 -0400 Guys, with regards to Phase I vs Phase II, based upon info in "Diesels From Eddystone", all of the Pennsy Centipedes were delivered under one order. BUT Seaboard's units superceeded Pennsy's and looked somewhat different especially in the vent and window arrangement along the unit's sides. Interestingly, NdeM's order was run at the same time as the Pennsy order, but their locos look exactly like Seaboards. So I would surmise that Seaboard and NdeM are "Type I", and the Pennsy units were "Type II". nuff said, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C: Hmmm, never say never on the PRR Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:35:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C32608.A2819120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steam ejector air conditioning I believe was used on some early = Pullman-Standard streamlined equipment, and this I think may have = included the Southern Railway Tennessean and Southerner. I think the = PRR coaches ordered to operate in these trains had a different system, = but presumably Sunnyside would have had to service whatever came in. The spotting features for a steam ejector system were most typically a = large hatch in the car roof, but I'm not sure if this was always the = case. Roads using the steam ejector system would include the Santa Fe, = Erie, Milwaukee, SP (I'm pretty sure, though oddly enough they used = different systems on different train sets), Southern (I'm pretty sure) = and possibly other southeastern connections. Pullman cars assigned to = these roads also had the steam ejector system, so such equipment might = also have wandered onto the PRR. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dan Cupper=20 To: RDG2124@aol.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C: Hmmm, never say never on the PRR Greetings to Evan, Bill, Jerry and the List: The copy in a mid-1930s PRR brochure titled "The Inside Story of Air = Conditioning" touts the railroad's "largest fleet of air-conditioned = trains in the world" (750 Pullmans, diners, and coaches) and reads as = follows: "Three systems... Several air-conditioning systems have been developed = to a high degree of efficiency. They are the Ice Activated, the = Mechanical Compression, and the Steam Jet systems. The Pennsylvania = Railroad uses all three." "The Steam Jet System ... In this system, refrigeration is produced by = spraying water into a partially evacuated, heavily insulated chamber. = Here the water evaporates. In so doing, it lowers the temperature of the = remaining water and this cool water is circulated in the overhead = air-conditioning units. The steam jet is employed to evacuate the = chamber and to compress the water vapor and steam to the slightly higher = pressure of the condenser, where the heat of the steam and vapor is = given off in the atmosphere. The air circulation in this system is the = same as that used in the other two systems." I'm wondering if this is the same as what Evan described as a "steam = ejector" system. Sounds awfully close but I'm no techno-guy. And again, = this was a 1930s brochure--it's entirely possible that PRR found the = other two systems to be more suited to its needs and disposed of this = "steam jet" method early, and thus perhaps by the time that Bill V. came = on the scene, the only systems left on PRR were the other two. Any = thoughts? =20 Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. RDG2124@aol.com wrote: Thanks to all for the responses. Steam A/C was definitely was not = used on the Pennsy. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C32608.A2819120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steam ejector air conditioning I believe was used on = some=20 early Pullman-Standard streamlined equipment, and this I think may have = included=20 the Southern Railway Tennessean and Southerner.   I think the = PRR=20 coaches ordered to operate in these trains had a different system, but=20 presumably Sunnyside would have had to service whatever came = in.
 
The spotting features for a steam ejector system = were most=20 typically a large hatch in the car roof, but I'm not sure if this was = always the=20 case.  Roads using the steam ejector system would include the Santa = Fe,=20 Erie, Milwaukee, SP (I'm pretty sure, though oddly enough they used = different=20 systems on different train sets), Southern (I'm pretty sure) and = possibly other=20 southeastern connections.  Pullman cars assigned to these roads = also had=20 the steam ejector system, so such equipment might also have wandered = onto the=20 PRR.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dan = Cupper
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 = 4:47=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector = A/C: Hmmm,=20 never say never on the PRR

Greetings to Evan, Bill, Jerry and the List:

The = copy in=20 a mid-1930s PRR brochure titled "The Inside Story of Air Conditioning" = touts=20 the railroad's "largest fleet of air-conditioned trains in the world" = (750=20 Pullmans, diners, and coaches) and reads as follows:

"Three = systems...=20 Several air-conditioning systems have been developed to a high degree = of=20 efficiency. They are the Ice Activated, the Mechanical Compression, = and the=20 Steam Jet systems. The Pennsylvania Railroad uses all=20 three."
<snip>
"The Steam Jet System ... In this system,=20 refrigeration is produced by spraying water into a partially = evacuated,=20 heavily insulated chamber. Here the water evaporates. In so doing, it = lowers=20 the temperature of the remaining water and this cool water is = circulated in=20 the overhead air-conditioning units. The steam jet is employed to = evacuate the=20 chamber and to compress the water vapor and steam to the slightly = higher=20 pressure of the condenser, where the heat of the steam and vapor is = given off=20 in the atmosphere. The air circulation in this system is the same as = that used=20 in the other two systems."

I'm wondering if this is the same as = what=20 Evan described as a "steam ejector" system. Sounds awfully close but = I'm no=20 techno-guy. And again, this was a 1930s brochure--it's entirely = possible that=20 PRR found the other two systems to be more suited to its needs and = disposed of=20 this "steam jet" method early, and thus perhaps by the time that Bill = V. came=20 on the scene, the only systems left on PRR were the other two. Any=20 thoughts?
 
Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.


RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

Thanks to all for the responses.  = Steam A/C was=20 definitely was not used on the Pennsy.

Evan=20 Leisey
RCT&HS =20 346

------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C32608.A2819120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Centipede question Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:38:36 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Prusick To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: Centipede question > Guys, > with regards to Phase I vs Phase II, based upon info in "Diesels From > Eddystone", all of the Pennsy Centipedes were delivered under one order. BUT > Seaboard's units superceeded Pennsy's and looked somewhat different > especially in the vent and window arrangement along the unit's sides. > Interestingly, NdeM's order was run at the same time as the Pennsy order, > but their locos look exactly like Seaboards. So I would surmise that > Seaboard and NdeM are "Type I", and the Pennsy units were "Type II". > > nuff said, > Walt Prusick > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipede question For those who would like to see the difference between a "Type 1" and a "Type 2", please refer to "Pennsy Diesels- A to Z" page 55 and 56. There you will see a Centipede without the roofvents. Turn the page and you'll see a Centipede with roofvents. That's how you tell them apart. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:10:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steam Ejector Air -Conditioning In a message dated 5/30/03 1:11:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << I'm wondering if this is the same as what Evan described as a "steam ejector" system. Sounds awfully close but I'm no techno-guy. And again, this was a 1930s brochure--it's entirely possible that PRR found the other two systems to be more suited to its needs and disposed of this "steam jet" method early, and thus perhaps by the time that Bill V. came on the scene, the only systems left on PRR were the other two. Any thoughts? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. >> Dan; "Steam Jet" and "Steam Ejector" are one and the same, and yes (as of 1945), the PRR did have a single "Steam Jet" air-conditioned coach (P70R #3461) in the "List of Air-conditioned Cars" published in PRR Form 213B Form 213B only covers PRR equipment so it is possible that Pullman cars were equipped with "Steam Jet / Steam Elector" systems on the PRR. Regards; Brian Butcher PRR 30s-50s 1/160th ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Fw: Centipede question Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:56:52 -0400 I have been told that when the Pennsy centipedes were first delivered there were gauges in the cab written in Spanish! The ammeter read "Ampheros" or some such! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Walter Prusick Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:39 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Fw: Centipede question ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Prusick To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: Centipede question > Guys, > with regards to Phase I vs Phase II, based upon info in "Diesels From > Eddystone", all of the Pennsy Centipedes were delivered under one > order. BUT > Seaboard's units superceeded Pennsy's and looked somewhat different > especially in the vent and window arrangement along the unit's sides. > Interestingly, NdeM's order was run at the same time as the Pennsy > order, but their locos look exactly like Seaboards. So I would surmise > that Seaboard and NdeM are "Type I", and the Pennsy units were "Type > II". > > nuff said, > Walt Prusick > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Ejector A/C: Hmmm, never say never on the PRR Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:59:36 +0000 Sounds to me that the PR guy who wrote that knew nothing of engineering priciples. An ejector is basically a high pressure nozzle in the center of a large pipe and discharges down the center of the pipe. This creates a suction effect that can in the case of a steam engine pull water for the boiler. Air ejectors have been used for longer than I know to provide massive amounts of cooling air in the steel industry for guys working inside furnaces and to disipate the heat in the refractory. In this case I question the water injection but that could be. In either case the principle is that pressure, temperature and flow have relationships. In general the higher the pressure the higher the temperature and the faster the flow the lower the temperature. (P1V1)/T1= (P2V2)/T2. So to lower the temperature you either need to lower the pressure or increase velocity and that is what the ejector does. IT considerably increase the flow by suction which in itself lowers the temperature. A slight stream of water would cool it further. A portion of that cooled air could then be channeled to the car for cooling. WIth a ready supply of steam at the ehad end of the train and steam heat already the preffered method it had to be the choice of the railroads until proven too costly. > Greetings to Evan, Bill, Jerry and the List: > > The copy in a mid-1930s PRR brochure titled "The Inside Story of Air > Conditioning" touts the railroad's "largest fleet of air-conditioned > trains in the world" (750 Pullmans, diners, and coaches) and reads as > follows: > > "Three systems... Several air-conditioning systems have been developed > to a high degree of efficiency. They are the Ice Activated, the > Mechanical Compression, and the Steam Jet systems. The Pennsylvania > Railroad uses all three." > > "The Steam Jet System ... In this system, refrigeration is produced by > spraying water into a partially evacuated, heavily insulated chamber. > Here the water evaporates. In so doing, it lowers the temperature of the > remaining water and this cool water is circulated in the overhead > air-conditioning units. The steam jet is employed to evacuate the > chamber and to compress the water vapor and steam to the slightly higher > pressure of the condenser, where the heat of the steam and vapor is > given off in the atmosphere. The air circulation in this system is the > same as that used in the other two systems." > > I'm wondering if this is the same as what Evan described as a "steam > ejector" system. Sounds awfully close but I'm no techno-guy. And again, > this was a 1930s brochure--it's entirely possible that PRR found the > other two systems to be more suited to its needs and disposed of this > "steam jet" method early, and thus perhaps by the time that Bill V. came > on the scene, the only systems left on PRR were the other two. Any thoughts? > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > > > RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Thanks to all for the responses. Steam A/C was definitely was not > > used on the Pennsy. > > > > Evan Leisey > > RCT&HS 346 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:11:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Air conditioning This won't help anybody to understand AC systems, but I recall leaving NY Penn Station back in the Sixties in some creaky P70 bound for the NY&LB. The car was sweltering, and if it had air conditioning it was certainly mechanical; but when some harried commuter asked the equally harried trainman why it was so hot, he got a quick reply: "No ice!" -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:30:27 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipede question Walt sez: >with regards to Phase I vs Phase II, based upon info in "Diesels From >Eddystone", all of the Pennsy Centipedes were delivered under one order. BUT >Seaboard's units superceeded Pennsy's and looked somewhat different >especially in the vent and window arrangement along the unit's sides. >Interestingly, NdeM's order was run at the same time as the Pennsy order, >but their locos look exactly like Seaboards. So I would surmise that >Seaboard and NdeM are "Type I", and the Pennsy units were "Type II". Actually, only the first of Seaboard's units has the REALLY differrent vent arrangement. Unit 4512 appears to be a "Type I". Units 4508, 4513 appear to be almost the same as PRR's "Type II". In looking last night, I could clearly see the difference on the one PRR Type I unit in a builders photo (PRR 5823) - the assymetric horizontal brace in the side vents. Another difference that appears with the brace moved down is a row of louvers in the carbody roof just above the side vent. The SAL units do NOT appear to have this. Of note too are the other minor appearance changes on PRR units such as the addition of grabs on the nose that appeared around the time of conversion to BH50. Anyone have any photos of the NdeM units? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Centipede question Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:03:02 +0000 G' Morning everyone; First of all, I would like to thank all the those who have participated in this discussion. I have looked at the pictures available to me last night (I have most of the typical PRR books including the Withers books) and have found the following unique features of Baldwin Centipedes on the Pennsy: 1. Roof Vents. These vents were located directly above the vents on the cab sides in the middle portion of the engine. Some Centipedes had them while others did not. Engine 5823 is of particular interest. It was originally delivered without the vents but buy the early to mid-1950's, had them. Perhaps the Pennsy sent this unit back to Eddystone in the early '50's for some retrofitting? 2. Side Vent Grills. All Centipedes had them but there appeared to be 2 types. The first one was the vent grills were bisected horizontally but at the top third or quarter of the grill. These assymetric grills are somewhat rare and seemed to be found on the earlier Centipedes. From the Withers book, it appears that some engines that were originally equipped with these grills were later replaced with the second type, which was the side vent grill bisected in the middle (halfway) of the grill. This grill seemed to be the most common of all the grills. There could have been another side vent grill that had no horizontal bisecting lines. If they did exist, they were only observed on the surviving Centipedes in the late '50's and early '60's. 3. Location of Side Vents. Centipedes had 3 basic side vents on the sides of the cab, one large one in the middle and two smaller ones on towards the ends of the engine. Typically, all of these side vents were positioned on the upper half of the cab body. However, the Wither's and PDY books indicate that some of the PRR Centipedes had the smaller side vents located on the bottom half of the engine body. I am not sure with these were delivered this were to the side vents were relocated after delivery. 4. Cab Body Base Panels. Pennsy Centipedes had 2 types. The first were straight cab panels that ran from the back of the engine all the way the the cab ladder and door near the from of the engine (Engines 5827 and 5834). These cab panels were essentially the same height. The second type of panels were similar to the first except the panel, just behind the cab ladder and door, would angle upward and increase in height (Engine 5811 and 5823). These panels seemed to be with the engines as they were delivered new. I did not know that there were so many variations with the Pennsy Centipedes. My perdicament is that I have an Overland Models of the following PRR Centipede (which Overland claims to be "Type II"). It has the following: 1. Roof Vents 2. Assymetric Side Vent Grills 3. All Side Vents in upper half of body 4. Straight Base Panels behind the cab ladder and door In all of the PRR pictures that I have, I have not found a Pennsy Centipede that has all of these features. Did Overland goof up? The verdict is still out though since I do not have all of the photos of all Centipedes as delivered or later in their lives. If anyone has a photo of a Pennsy Centipede with the above features and especially in 5-stripe color scheme, please email me. Thank you in advance! Ted M. Andrews Carmel, Indiana (Modeling the Ft. Wayne Line in Indiana and where the Centipedes roamed) >From: "Walter Prusick" >Reply-To: "Walter Prusick" >To: >Subject: [PRR] Fw: Centipede question >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:38:36 -0400 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Walter Prusick >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:34 PM >Subject: Centipede question > > > > Guys, > > with regards to Phase I vs Phase II, based upon info in "Diesels From > > Eddystone", all of the Pennsy Centipedes were delivered under one order. >BUT > > Seaboard's units superceeded Pennsy's and looked somewhat different > > especially in the vent and window arrangement along the unit's sides. > > Interestingly, NdeM's order was run at the same time as the Pennsy >order, > > but their locos look exactly like Seaboards. So I would surmise that > > Seaboard and NdeM are "Type I", and the Pennsy units were "Type II". > > > > nuff said, > > Walt Prusick > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Photos Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:12:45 -0400 Listers, I got this from the Trains newswire. Some interesting PRR photos(after a few clicks). Chris Chany -- TRAINS PHOTO ARCHIVE ----------------------------------------- Final opportunity to purchase Trains Photo Archive prints! Friday, May 30th will be your last chance to purchase Trains Photo Archive prints. For over 60 years the photography presented in TRAINS Magazine has been acclaimed as some of the finest railroad photography in the world. Personally selected by the publisher and editors of TRAINS and Classic Trains magazines, these prints are the best of our extensive collection. Visit our Trains Photo Archive store for all the details. But, do it soon, as May 30th will be your last opportunity to purchase one of these great prints. Click here: http://list.trains.com/UM/T.asp?A7.58.146.3.124234 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] Army/Navy Games with B&O and NYC Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:35:01 -0800 In Triumph III, there is a caption about the Navy team arriving at the game via the B&O from Annapolis, and the Army team getting to Philly on an NYC train from West Point. Does anyone know what kind of equipment both roads used to get there? I'm interested in the 50s in particular. The B&O had easy access to the Greenwich Yard and stadium area because of their yard there. How did the NYC train get there? I'm assuming down the NEC through Trenton, taking the High Line and going east @ Arsenal, but I'm not sure how north of Trenton. thanks in advance.. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rwo1361@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:02:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling signals --part1_a6.383180f4.2c092ef7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 29 May 2003 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: >=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 We are talking about HO scale signals. There was one guy who= did > make scale PRR dwarf signals. He custom made all of the different style > PRR signal heads. He took a lot of orders (and money) from PRRT&HS > members at one of the conventions and no one his seen him since. Most > never got thier signals or money back. Hopefully some model company will > do a scale dwarf and pedestal signal. There is a company that makes great dwarf signals along with bridge and mast= =20 signals I don't think they have a web site but the name and phone number is=20 INTEGRATED SIGNAL SYSTEMS P.O. BOX 25451, ROCHESTER, NY 14625 716-421-0876= =20 I bought some of his dwarf last year and they were to scale and look great,=20 he uses LED in the signal. --part1_a6.383180f4.2c092ef7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 29 May 2003 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote:

>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 We are talking about HO scale signals. There was one guy=20= who did
> make scale PRR dwarf signals. He custom made all of the different style=
> PRR signal heads. He took a lot of orders (and money) from PRRT&HS<= BR> > members at one of the conventions and no one his seen him since. Most > never got thier signals or money back. Hopefully some model company wil= l
> do a scale dwarf and pedestal signal.

There is a company that makes great dwarf signals along with bridge and mast= signals I don't think they have a web site but the name and phone number is= INTEGRATED SIGNAL SYSTEMS   P.O. BOX 25451, ROCHESTER, NY 14625 7= 16-421-0876  

I bought some of his dwarf last year and they were to scale and look great,=20= he uses LED in the signal.



 --part1_a6.383180f4.2c092ef7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:29:44 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O Hi All, Is it just me, or is there a strong resemblance between a K4 and this B & O loco? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35975&item=2176939520 Look at the tender! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:29:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR influence on the B & O Hi All, Is it just me, or is there a strong resemblance between a K4 and this B & O loco? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35975&item=2176939520 Look at the tender! Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:46:33 -0700 Someone else will have to provide the actual years, but the PRR controlled the B&O in the early part of the 20th century, I believe up to about 1912. PRR surrendered its control as part of a complex deal in which Harriman's Union Pacific gave up its control of the Southern Pacific and Illinois Central, and stock was swapped all around. During this period the B&O actually had versions of the H6 2-8-0 and H21 hopper and other PRR designs. The resemblance of the President pacifics to the K4 has been pointed out before, but this is after the actual period of control. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O > Hi All, > > Is it just me, or is there a strong resemblance between a K4 and this B & O > loco? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35975&item=2176939520 > Look at the tender! > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Army/Navy Games with B&O and NYC Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:57:56 -0400 Alex, It's been a good trick to get from Annapolis on the B&O, since it didn't go there. It got no closer than the PRR, Baltimore. Annapolis was served by the Baltimore & Annapolis, an electric interurban, which did connect only with the B&O and entered Camden Station, so I suppose it is remotely possible that the middies transferred from interurbans to B&O coaches at Camden Station, prior to the 1950 abandonment of B&A service. As far as West Point, PRR connected with NYC(WS) at Jersey City. I believe the junction was Marion Interchange, but don't hold me to that! West Point was on the West Shore, NYC(WS). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 4:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Army/Navy Games with B&O and NYC > In Triumph III, there is a caption about the Navy team arriving at the game > via the B&O from Annapolis, and the Army team getting to Philly on an NYC > train from West Point. > > Does anyone know what kind of equipment both roads used to get there? I'm > interested in the 50s in particular. > > The B&O had easy access to the Greenwich Yard and stadium area because of > their yard there. How did the NYC train get there? I'm assuming down the > NEC through Trenton, taking the High Line and going east @ Arsenal, but I'm > not sure how north of Trenton. > > thanks in advance.. > -alex > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 01:19:02 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C32712.9F2B1040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MoPac baggage cars in PRR consists were discussed recently. I have seen = either video or a photo of a New Haven baggage car on the curve (train = unknown but IIRC during the 1950's). I have also seen video of PFE green = express reefers in head-end from the same era. Does anyone know how common the inclusion of non-PRR baggage/reefer cars = in baggage-mail consists was in the mid-1950's? Would these cars have = been extra to the booked consist or substitutes? Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C32712.9F2B1040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MoPac baggage cars in PRR consists were = discussed=20 recently. I have seen either video or a photo of a New Haven baggage car = on the=20 curve (train unknown but IIRC during the 1950's). I have also seen video = of PFE=20 green express reefers in head-end from the same era.
 
Does anyone know how common the = inclusion of=20 non-PRR baggage/reefer cars in baggage-mail consists was in the = mid-1950's?=20 Would these cars have been extra to the booked consist or=20 substitutes?
 
Martin Skrzetuszewski
London, = England 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C32712.9F2B1040-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:50:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C326DC.61D649C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Typically there were express car "lines" that ran from one city to = another, and often involved routing beyond the PRR. This would not be = all that different from interchange of coaches or Pullman cars, but the = destinations were more extensive. So you might typically see an express = car "line" of one or more cars maybe six days a week from Los Angeles to = New York, running on specific trains, on the Santa Fe Fast Mail, = transferred to a particular PRR train in Chicago to run to New York. = You would multiply this by many other cities and many other trains. = This would have been very common up to the essential collapse of = pre-Amtrak rail passenger service. The PRR was unique in running steam = line equipped cabin cars on mail and express trains, but the New Haven = also had steam line equipped cabooses that ran through onto the PRR. I = believe one of the photo books shows a New Haven caboose in this service = in Ohio. The New Haven did a great deal of through express business = with the PRR, and the NH ex-troop sleeper express cars were very common = sights on the PRR through the 1960s. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Martin Skrzetuszewski=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 5:19 PM Subject: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars MoPac baggage cars in PRR consists were discussed recently. I have = seen either video or a photo of a New Haven baggage car on the curve = (train unknown but IIRC during the 1950's). I have also seen video of = PFE green express reefers in head-end from the same era. =20 Does anyone know how common the inclusion of non-PRR baggage/reefer = cars in baggage-mail consists was in the mid-1950's? Would these cars = have been extra to the booked consist or substitutes? =20 Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C326DC.61D649C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Typically there were express car "lines" that ran = from one=20 city to another, and often involved routing beyond the PRR.  This = would not=20 be all that different from interchange of coaches or Pullman cars, but = the=20 destinations were more extensive.  So you might typically see an = express=20 car "line" of one or more cars maybe six days a week from Los Angeles to = New=20 York, running on specific trains, on the Santa Fe Fast Mail, transferred = to a=20 particular PRR train in Chicago to run to New York.  You would = multiply=20 this by many other cities and many other trains.  This would have = been very=20 common up to the essential collapse of pre-Amtrak rail passenger = service. =20 The PRR was unique in running steam line equipped cabin cars on mail and = express=20 trains, but the New Haven also had steam line equipped cabooses that ran = through=20 onto the PRR.  I believe one of the photo books shows a New Haven = caboose=20 in this service in Ohio.  The New Haven did a great deal of through = express=20 business with the PRR, and the NH ex-troop sleeper express cars were = very common=20 sights on the PRR through the 1960s.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Martin Skrzetuszewski =
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 5:19 = PM
Subject: [PRR] Other Road's = head-end=20 cars

MoPac baggage cars in PRR consists = were discussed=20 recently. I have seen either video or a photo of a New Haven baggage = car on=20 the curve (train unknown but IIRC during the 1950's). I have also seen = video=20 of PFE green express reefers in head-end from the same = era.
 
Does anyone know how common the = inclusion of=20 non-PRR baggage/reefer cars in baggage-mail consists was in the = mid-1950's?=20 Would these cars have been extra to the booked consist or=20 substitutes?
 
Martin Skrzetuszewski
London,=20 England 
------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C326DC.61D649C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:10:44 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: RE: [PRR] Army/Navy Games with B&O and NYC the B&O interchanged with the Annapolis and Elk Ridge Railroad at Annapolis Junction, MD. the line east to Annapolis crossed the NEC at grade at Odenton. the line then crossed teh Washington, Baltimore, and Annapolis at grade. this is called Academy Junction since it went to the Academy. once in Annapolis, the line connected with the Baltimore and Annapolis. here's a link with more info. http://navpooh.com/southshore_b_and_o.html -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:19:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars --part1_108.235cfc8f.2c096b4d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An Overview" [Rocky Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an excellent starting point for car assignments and routings. The Eastern railroads -- including the P.R.R. - are prominently featured. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_108.235cfc8f.2c096b4d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An Ov= erview"  [Rocky Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an excellent start= ing point for car assignments and routings.  The Eastern railroads -- i= ncluding the P.R.R. - are prominently featured.

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_108.235cfc8f.2c096b4d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Manhattan Limited List, For modeling purposes I need to find out for someone, what the consist was for the Manhattan Limited, circa 1951, Eastbound out of Chicago would be great but Westbound info is usable as well. I remember a back issue of the Keystone had this type info for The Broadway. Can someone please help? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:37:51 -0700 Subject: [PRR] f you need to weather a hippo Hi list members, I noticed this a while back, but thought I'd better write something before we turn the pages on out calendars... The PRR Cedco calendar for this month (May 2003) has a photo of a pair of hippos. If you examine it for more that a second or two, it becomes plain to see this is an excellent reference for weathering steam! The subtlety of the various colors is plainly visible. So if you need to weather a hippo, I recommend taking a good long close look at the image. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:20:10 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O --- John Bruce wrote: > Someone else will have to provide the actual years, but the PRR > controlled > the B&O in the early part of the 20th century, I believe up to > about 1912. Schotter (pp 294-295) says: "...it was deemed advisable in 1906 to sell a part of the Company's holdings... This sale, which was made at a profit, included all of the stock owned in the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway Company and a majority of the Company's ownership in the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad and Norfolk and Western Railway Companies. It has since, however, re-purchased an additional interest in the shares of the latter company." Note: 1906 ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:02:57 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3274B.0C591120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the recommendation. Sadly the ($12.95?) book seems to command = a used price in excess of $150!!. Regards, Martin Skrzetuszewski ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: j.bruce@gte.net ; martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An Overview" [Rocky = Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an excellent starting point for car = assignments and routings. The Eastern railroads -- including the P.R.R. = - are prominently featured. Chris Baker #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3274B.0C591120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the recommendation. Sadly = the ($12.95?)=20 book seems to command a used price in excess of $150!!.
 
Regards,
Martin Skrzetuszewski
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
To: j.bruce@gte.net ; martinskrzetuszewski@lin= eone.net=20 ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 = 3:19=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's = head-end=20 cars

I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: = An=20 Overview"  [Rocky Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an = excellent=20 starting point for car assignments and routings.  The Eastern = railroads=20 -- including the P.R.R. - are prominently featured.

Chris = Baker =20 #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3274B.0C591120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:38:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Manhattan Limited From: Jerry Britton On 5/30/03 10:36 PM, "Gary Mittner" wrote: > For modeling purposes I need to find out for someone, what the > consist was for the Manhattan Limited, circa 1951, Eastbound out of > Chicago would be great but Westbound info is usable as well. I remember > a back issue of the Keystone had this type info for The Broadway. Can > someone please help? Thanks, Gary > Not quite 1951, but two records from just after... 1953 makeup per "Rails Northeast", September 1978: MS60...New York to Council Bluffs or St. Paul MS60...New York to Council Bluffs or St. Paul MS60...Philadelphia to Council Bluffs or St. Paul (From 611 at Harrisburg.) MS60...Philadelphia to Chicago (From 611 at Harrisburg.) MS60...(X) Philadelphia to Chicago (From 611 at Harrisburg.) MS60...(X) Harrisburg to Chicago (Added at Harrisburg.) MS60...(X) New York or PCC to Chicago MS60...(X) New York or PCC to Chicago MS60...New York or PCC to Chicago MS60...New York or PCC to Chicago B60...New York to Chicago R50 or X29...New York to Chicago B60...New York to Chicago P70KR...New York to Chicago P70KR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago Diner...New York to Chicago PS5L...New York to Chicago PS21...New York to Chicago 12 section-1 drawing room...New York to Chicago P70 (Fri,Sun)...New York to Pittsburgh P70 (Fri,Sun)...New York to Pittsburgh P70 (Fri,Sun)...New York to Pittsburgh P70 (ex Fri, Sun)...New York to Harrisburg MS60...Baltimore to Pittsburgh (From 533 at Harrisburg.) Per 1954 "Makeup of Trains, New York Division": MS60.....New York to Council Bluff MS60.....New York to Omaha MS60.....New York to Oakland Piers R50 or X29.....New York to Chicago B60.....New York to Chicago P85BR.....New York to Chicago P85BR.....New York to Chicago P85BR.....New York to Chicago P85BR.....New York to Pittsburgh P85BR.....New York to Pittsburgh Dining Car.....New York to Altoona PS13L.....New York to Chicago "Colonial Houses" or "Colonial Arms" PS21.....New York to Chicago "Cambridge Inn" or "Uniontown Inn" HW 12-1.....New York to Chicago "Launfal" or "Akeley" Note that the '54 version indicates specific sleeper car assignments. I will have all of the sleeper assignments in my online database in a few weeks. I am working on it offline and should be completing on my vacation in early July. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Manhattan Limited List, Thanks all who supplied info. That should be enough for making up this train. As you can see it was a mix match consist at this late date but most if not all are available in model form, one way or another. I will relay this on. Thanks again, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:25:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C32756.89F03F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there anyone out there who can point me in the right direction of = Railroad Freight Car markings and their meanings in book form. What I need is an explanation of the weights, built date etc stenciled = on the sides of Freight cars for an article I want to write for our NRHS = Club's Bulletin (Newsletter). Thank you, Lee Burbage No/1943 PRRT&HS leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C32756.89F03F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there anyone out there who can point me in the right direction = of=20 Railroad Freight Car markings and their meanings in book form.
 
What I need is an explanation of the weights, built date etc = stenciled on=20 the sides of Freight cars for an article I want to write for our NRHS = Club's=20 Bulletin (Newsletter).
 
Thank you,
 
 
Lee Burbage
No/1943
PRRT&HS
 
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
= ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C32756.89F03F40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:13:52 -0500 Lee, What you need is Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol 4. It has an excellent article defining all the lettering. http://members.aol.com/rpcyc/v4.html Andy Cich -----Original Message----- Is there anyone out there who can point me in the right direction of Railroad Freight Car markings and their meanings in book form. What I need is an explanation of the weights, built date etc stenciled on the sides of Freight cars for an article I want to write for our NRHS Club's Bulletin (Newsletter). Thank you, Lee Burbage No/1943 PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:56:15 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_FEm9Azd42TM++9UJCH89Cw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lee, et al., RE: Car side markings Generally for all railroad equipment, but specifically for PRR as it did not follow AAR practice exactly. As you would look at the car from the side. LEFT SIDE - Typically* CAPY = Nominal CAPacitY in pounds (must not exceed load limit). LD LMT = LoaD LiMiT - Allowable weight on rail minus light weight LT WT = LighT WeighT - Weight of the car empty to the nearest 100 pounds - followed by XX MM-YY - where XX= Station code where weighed (scale mark), and MM-YY = Month and Year of most recent weighing or reweighing of car. XM = AAR car class (this one for box cars - typically not used on PRR cars) RIGHT SIDE - Typically* EX W = outside EXtreme Width - H = outside extreme Height EW = outside Eve Width - H = outside eve Height IL = Interior Length IW = Interior Width IH = Interior Height CU FT = CUbic FeeT of cargo compartment level full Note - Not all of above "right side" characters are used on all cars. XNN = PRR car class (this one for box car) F = Flat, G = Gondola (including ore jennies), H = open top Hopper and covered Hopper, N= cabiN, K = stocK PRR (or if before ca. 1942 could also be owning subsidiary such as E&P) = ownership initials - maybe omitted on cars with trust badges RPKD MM-DD-YY XX = Journal box Repacked Date Month-Day-Year, XX = shop code * May be reversed for some boxcars on account of door configuration LEFT, CENTER OR RIGHT - depending on car - check photos/lettering diagrams. NEW MM-YY = Month and Year originally built BLT MM-YY = Month and Year originally BuiLT or a later date if rebuilt. ON AIR CYLINDER (only on side nearest car edge) XX MM-DD-YY XRR = Info on latest airbrake COTS **- XX= Location (shop) code, MM-DD-YY = Month-Day-Year , XRR = railroad or shop performing test. ** COTS = Clean, Oil, Test, Stencil I think I have them all. Al --Boundary_(ID_FEm9Azd42TM++9UJCH89Cw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message
Lee, et al.,
 
RE: Car side markings
 
Generally for all railroad equipment, but specifically for PRR as it did not follow AAR practice exactly.
As you would look at the car from the side.
 
 
LEFT SIDE - Typically*
 
CAPY = Nominal CAPacitY in pounds (must not exceed load limit).
 
LD LMT = LoaD LiMiT - Allowable weight on rail minus light weight
 
LT WT = LighT WeighT - Weight of the car empty to the nearest 100 pounds - followed by XX MM-YY  - where XX= Station code where weighed (scale mark), and MM-YY = Month and Year of most recent weighing or reweighing of car.
 
XM = AAR car class (this one for box cars - typically not used on PRR cars)
 
 
 
 
RIGHT SIDE - Typically*
 
EX W = outside EXtreme Width -  H = outside extreme Height
 
EW = outside Eve Width  - H = outside eve Height 
 
IL = Interior Length
 
IW = Interior Width
 
IH = Interior Height
 
CU FT = CUbic FeeT of cargo compartment level full
 
Note - Not all of above "right side" characters are used on all cars.
 
XNN = PRR car class (this one for box car) F = Flat, G = Gondola (including ore jennies), H = open top Hopper and covered Hopper, N= cabiN, K = stocK
 
PRR (or if before ca. 1942 could also be owning subsidiary such as E&P) = ownership initials - maybe omitted on cars with trust badges
 
RPKD MM-DD-YY XX =  Journal box Repacked Date Month-Day-Year, XX = shop code
 
* May be reversed for some boxcars on account of door configuration 
 
 
LEFT, CENTER OR RIGHT - depending on car - check photos/lettering diagrams.
 
NEW MM-YY = Month and Year originally built
 
BLT MM-YY = Month and Year originally BuiLT or a later date if rebuilt.
 
 
 
ON AIR CYLINDER (only on side nearest car edge)
 
XX MM-DD-YY XRR  = Info on latest airbrake COTS **- XX= Location (shop) code, MM-DD-YY = Month-Day-Year , XRR = railroad or shop performing test.
 
** COTS = Clean, Oil, Test, Stencil
 
 
 
I think I have them all.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_FEm9Azd42TM++9UJCH89Cw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Panza" Subject: Re: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:35:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C32771.2FBEFFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThe NEW MM-YY indicates that the last time the car was weighed = was when it was built. If the car was weighed subsequent to the build = date, the station weighing and stenciling the weights (LT. WT., LD LMT = and CAPY) would be stenciled in place of NEW and the built date. = Generally, cars were to be reweighed every 5 years or when the car was = modified that changed the light weight between 300 and 500 pounds = depending on the weight of the car. The AAR Rule covering car weights = (AAR Rule 70), has gone through numerous changes over the years. A good = source is the AAR Field Manual of Interchange Rules for the time period = being modeled. Section L of the AAR Standards and Recommended Practices covers the = minimum required stencils for freight cars. You may be able to find a = copy at a railroad flee market. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Buchan=20 To: 'edmund burbage' ; PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 11:56 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? Lee, et al., RE: Car side markings=20 Generally for all railroad equipment, but specifically for PRR as it = did not follow AAR practice exactly. As you would look at the car from the side. LEFT SIDE - Typically* CAPY =3D Nominal CAPacitY in pounds (must not exceed load limit). LD LMT =3D LoaD LiMiT - Allowable weight on rail minus light weight=20 LT WT =3D LighT WeighT - Weight of the car empty to the nearest 100 = pounds - followed by XX MM-YY - where XX=3D Station code where weighed = (scale mark), and MM-YY =3D Month and Year of most recent weighing or = reweighing of car. XM =3D AAR car class (this one for box cars - typically not used on = PRR cars) RIGHT SIDE - Typically* EX W =3D outside EXtreme Width - H =3D outside extreme Height EW =3D outside Eve Width - H =3D outside eve Height=20 IL =3D Interior Length IW =3D Interior Width IH =3D Interior Height CU FT =3D CUbic FeeT of cargo compartment level full Note - Not all of above "right side" characters are used on all cars. XNN =3D PRR car class (this one for box car) F =3D Flat, G =3D Gondola = (including ore jennies), H =3D open top Hopper and covered Hopper, N=3D = cabiN, K =3D stocK PRR (or if before ca. 1942 could also be owning subsidiary such as = E&P) =3D ownership initials - maybe omitted on cars with trust badges RPKD MM-DD-YY XX =3D Journal box Repacked Date Month-Day-Year, XX =3D = shop code * May be reversed for some boxcars on account of door configuration=20 LEFT, CENTER OR RIGHT - depending on car - check photos/lettering = diagrams. NEW MM-YY =3D Month and Year originally built=20 BLT MM-YY =3D Month and Year originally BuiLT or a later date if = rebuilt. ON AIR CYLINDER (only on side nearest car edge) XX MM-DD-YY XRR =3D Info on latest airbrake COTS **- XX=3D Location = (shop) code, MM-DD-YY =3D Month-Day-Year , XRR =3D railroad or shop = performing test. ** COTS =3D Clean, Oil, Test, Stencil I think I have them all. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C32771.2FBEFFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The NEW MM-YY indicates that the last time the = car was=20 weighed was when it was built.  If the car was weighed subsequent = to the=20 build date, the station weighing and stenciling the weights (LT. WT., LD = LMT and=20 CAPY) would be stenciled in place of NEW and the built date.  = Generally,=20 cars were to be reweighed every 5 years or when the car was = modified that=20 changed the light weight between 300 and 500 pounds depending on the = weight of=20 the car.  The AAR Rule covering car weights (AAR Rule 70), has gone = through=20 numerous changes over the years.  A good source is the AAR Field = Manual of=20 Interchange Rules for the time period being modeled.
 
Section L of the AAR Standards and Recommended = Practices=20 covers the minimum required stencils for freight cars.  You may be = able to=20 find a copy at a railroad flee market. 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al=20 Buchan
To: 'edmund burbage' ; PRR-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 = 11:56=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Asking for = assistance=20 please?

Lee, et al.,
 
RE: Car side markings =
 
Generally for all railroad equipment, but=20 specifically for PRR as it did not follow AAR practice=20 exactly.
As you would look at the car from the=20 side.
 
 
LEFT = SIDE -=20 Typically*
 
CAPY = =3D Nominal=20 CAPacitY in pounds (must not exceed load=20 limit).
 
LD = LMT =3D LoaD LiMiT -=20 Allowable weight on rail minus light weight
 
LT WT =3D = LighT WeighT - Weight=20 of the car empty = to the=20 nearest 100 pounds - followed by XX MM-YY  - where XX=3D = Station=20 code where weighed (scale = mark), and MM-YY = =3D Month and Year of most recent weighing or = reweighing of=20 car.
 
XM = =3D AAR car class=20 (this one for box cars - typically not used on PRR = cars)
 
 
 
 
RIGHT SIDE -=20 Typically*
 
EX W = =3D outside EXtreme Width -  H = =3D outside extreme Height
 
EW = =3D outside Eve Width  - H = =3D outside eve Height 
 
IL = =3D Interior=20 Length
 
IW = =3D Interior=20 Width
 
IH = =3D Interior=20 Height
 
CU = FT =3D CUbic FeeT of=20 cargo compartment level full
 
Note - Not=20 all of above "right side"=20 characters are used on all cars.
 
XNN =3D PRR car class (this one for box car) F =3D Flat, G =3D = Gondola=20 (including ore jennies), H =3D open top Hopper and covered Hopper, = N=3D cabiN, K =3D=20 stocK
 
PRR = (or if=20 before ca. 1942 could = also be=20 owning subsidiary such as E&P) =3D ownership initials - maybe = omitted on=20 cars with trust badges
 
RPKD MM-DD-YY XX =3D  Journal box = Repacked Date=20 Month-Day-Year, XX =3D shop=20 code
 
* = May be reversed=20 for some boxcars on account of door = configuration 
 
 
LEFT, CENTER OR = RIGHT -=20 depending on car - check photos/lettering=20 diagrams.
 
NEW MM-YY =3D Month and=20 Year originally built=20
 
BLT = MM-YY=20 =3D Month and Year=20 originally BuiLT or a later date if=20 rebuilt.
 
 
 
ON AIR=20 CYLINDER (only on side nearest car edge)
 
XX MM-DD-YY XRR  =3D Info on latest = airbrake COTS **- XX=3D=20 Location (shop) code, MM-DD-YY =3D Month-Day-Year , XRR =3D railroad = or shop=20 performing test.
 
** COTS =3D=20 Clean, Oil, Test, Stencil
 
 
=
 
I = think I have=20 them all.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C32771.2FBEFFA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:45:11 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_OYWKIJU0beXF99xBDgangQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanx Jim. Al From: Jim Panza [mailto:JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? The NEW MM-YY indicates that the last time the car was weighed was when it was built. If the car was weighed subsequent to the build date, the station weighing and stenciling the weights (LT. WT., LD LMT and CAPY) would be stenciled in place of NEW and the built date. Generally, cars were to be reweighed every 5 years or when the car was modified that changed the light weight between 300 and 500 pounds depending on the weight of the car. The AAR Rule covering car weights (AAR Rule 70), has gone through numerous changes over the years. A good source is the AAR Field Manual of Interchange Rules for the time period being modeled. Section L of the AAR Standards and Recommended Practices covers the minimum required stencils for freight cars. You may be able to find a copy at a railroad flee market. --Boundary_(ID_OYWKIJU0beXF99xBDgangQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message
Thanx Jim.
 
Al

From: Jim Panza [mailto:JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com]
Subject: Re: [PRR] Asking for assistance please?

The NEW MM-YY indicates that the last time the car was weighed was when it was built.  If the car was weighed subsequent to the build date, the station weighing and stenciling the weights (LT. WT., LD LMT and CAPY) would be stenciled in place of NEW and the built date.  Generally, cars were to be reweighed every 5 years or when the car was modified that changed the light weight between 300 and 500 pounds depending on the weight of the car.  The AAR Rule covering car weights (AAR Rule 70), has gone through numerous changes over the years.  A good source is the AAR Field Manual of Interchange Rules for the time period being modeled.
 
Section L of the AAR Standards and Recommended Practices covers the minimum required stencils for freight cars.  You may be able to find a copy at a railroad flee market. 
--Boundary_(ID_OYWKIJU0beXF99xBDgangQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:24:06 -0500 The resemblance to the K4 tender in the picture may be more an artifact of the angle of the photograph and the distance of the tender from the photographer. B&O's Class E24 consolidation is based on PRR's E6. They also had an 0-8-0 switchers based on the H6. Some E24s lasted till the end of steam on the B&O. At that time, the only thing distinguishing the locomotive as an original PRR design was the Belpaire firebox, and perhaps the tender. -----Original Message----- From: John Bruce [mailto:j.bruce@gte.net] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 6:47 PM To: Bill Lane; PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O Someone else will have to provide the actual years, but the PRR controlled the B&O in the early part of the 20th century, I believe up to about 1912. PRR surrendered its control as part of a complex deal in which Harriman's Union Pacific gave up its control of the Southern Pacific and Illinois Central, and stock was swapped all around. During this period the B&O actually had versions of the H6 2-8-0 and H21 hopper and other PRR designs. The resemblance of the President pacifics to the K4 has been pointed out before, but this is after the actual period of control. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR influence on the B & O > Hi All, > > Is it just me, or is there a strong resemblance between a K4 and this B & O > loco? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35975&item=2176939520 > Look at the tender! > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 21:24:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Asking for assistance please? On Sat, 31 May 2003, Jim Panza wrote: > MessageThe NEW MM-YY indicates that the last time the car was weighed was when it was built. If the car was weighed subsequent to the build date, the station weighing and stenciling the weights (LT. WT., LD LMT and CAPY) would be stenciled in place of NEW and the built date. Generally, cars were to be reweighed every 5 years or when the car was modified that changed the light weight between 300 and 500 pounds depending on the weight of the car. Well, not EXACTLY At no point in the PRR's history was the reweigh interval as long as 60 months. Prior to 1949, the interval was as follows: NEW cars of wood or composite construction - 15 months NEW cars of steel construction - 30 months REWIGH steel or wood/composite - 30 months In 1949, the REWEIGH interval on steel cars went to 48 months, and NEW remained at 30 months. I know I'm having fun trying to make sure all my reweigh dates are correct for June 1944!!!! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:47:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Lewis J. Matt PhD wrote: > Friends: > > When I was a youngster, I remember seeing a three light, two position dwarf > signal near the station at Lancaster, PA. Since then, I don't believe I have > seen any. Where were these signals usually located, what was their purpose > and what did the positions indicate. Some of the illustrations I have seen > of dwarf signals showed what looked like three aspects, vertical, diagonal > up to the right and horizontal, using four lights. If you can get up to Leetsdale, one is on the west side of the main next to the signal bridge just north of Leetsdale station (now Red Cap Cleaners, but with a keystone station sign still on the building) I have pictures somewhere... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!

> A while back I asked some questions about = modeling=20 position light
> signals; I'm getting = close to=20 trying to install a position-light signal or
>=20 two, but got sidetracked by the need to built a control panel = before=20
> trying to simulate interlockings.  This = is=20 getting closer to reality .
> = Meanwhile:=20
>
> There's a = characteristic=20 of signals that I never thought much about
>=20 until now.
>
> When a=20 signal aspect changes, does the signal change to the new =
> indication instantly, or is there a noticeable period = when the=20 signal
> is dark?  Does this vary = with=20 different systems, e.g. automatic
> = block signals=20 vs interlocking signals for example, or with the type =
> of interlocking machine perhaps?
>
> What brought this up = was, a week or=20 so ago I was riding a NJ
> Transit = commuter train=20 out of New York.  I was sitting on the left
> side near the back of the train, and, as we proceeded = through=20 the
> long left curve at Harrison, I = could=20 clearly see the position-light
> signal = ahead as=20 my train passed beneath the signal bridge.  (This =
> was probably the westward home signal at Dock=20 interlocking.)
>
> The=20 signal changed from medium clear to stop, as expected; but it =
> went dark for a loooong time, I would say = about 3/4 of=20 a second.
> This may not sound like = much, but it=20 sure is noticeable.
>
> Is this typical or some kind of aberration?  Even = if the=20 signal
> changes = "instantaneously," is=20 there a noticeable delay as the new
> = lamps come=20 to full brightness?  If this is the case, does a lamp =
> previously lighted which stays on (e.g. the center = lamp in a=20 position
> light target) stay on = throughout, or=20 does it go dark briefly too?
> Modeling = this kind=20 of behavior accurately might lead to some pretty
> hairy electronics.
>
> I guess the hard way to do this would be to go out and = watch=20 lots
> of signals in action!  But = maybe it=20 has changed over time, too.
> =
> John Bobsin
> =
>=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20
> For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20