From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Zoo Tower Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 03:54:32 +0000 Its a green plastic catenary shield to protect workers et al from accidently comming into contact with the overhead wire of the track emerging from the underpass. It is standard equipment on everything that passes over an electrified line. >From: "John Cooper" >To: "PRR-TALK" >Subject: [PRR] Zoo Tower >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:42:43 -0800 > >Anyone know what is up with the green wall in the following picture of Zoo >Tower? >http://personalwebs.myriad.net/lruback/Philly/AMTK/AMTK_ZooTwr01.jpg > >BTW, there are good railfanning pictures of someone's trip to Philadelphia >at: >http://personalwebs.myriad.net/lruback/Philly/ > >John > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] For Sale Items Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:33:37 -0500 I have two items I would like to offer to listmembers. First is a factory sealed copy of Four Ways West Publishing's "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume 3 - Chicago to Camden" by Dave Sweetland. Price is $35.95 plus Media Mail and optional insurance to your ZIP Code. Second item is a new in the box Proto 2000 HO PRR GP9 Ph. III; stock number 21643, enginre #7160. Price is $44.95 plus Parcel Post and optional insurance to your ZIP Code. If interested in either of these items, please contact me directly with your ZIP Code. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:05:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Project Update From: Jerry Britton Preston, Bruce: On 3/31/03 you wrote: > > Drawings arrived today... Glad everything is falling into place. It was unbelievably good timing that those drawings came available when they did, and the fact that the drive train has been worked out is a major breakthrough. As you know, this is what nixed the project twice before. I have confirmed painting & lettering diagrams coming from the other two roads, so we'll have those two schemes to offer in addition to the two Pennsy schemes. The fact that the PRR always ran them in pairs will certainly get us to our minimum orders faster. Remember, only need the trainphone on one of the two units. I doubt we'll have any problem given the expected price and inclusion of sound and DCC for the HO version. On the N scale version, since sound won't be possible, can we look at including DCC? There's certainly enough room. If not your decoder, perhaps an NCE decoder? Remember, the PRRT&HS convention is in four weeks. We really need to get part numbers and firm up road numbers by then. Look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks for all your hard work on this project! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 08:15:22 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Project Update --=====================_68344934==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed What Project? --=====================_68344934==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" What Project? --=====================_68344934==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:28:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Project Update From: Jerry Britton On 4/1/03 9:15 AM, Randy Williamson (pennsy@vbe.com) wrote: > What Project? Sorry, case of e-mail address "autofill" gone awry. Please disregard. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Project Update Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:38:21 -0500 Just checking my calendar... Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Randy Williamson" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Cc: "Bruce Smith" Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Project Update > On 4/1/03 9:15 AM, Randy Williamson (pennsy@vbe.com) wrote: > > > What Project? > > Sorry, case of e-mail address "autofill" gone awry. Please disregard. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Project Update Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:01:19 -0500 As the forensic scientist on the list, looking at the evidence, I would say Centipedes from Broadway Limited. (Although the n-scale is new to Broadway) Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:05 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Cc: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: Project Update Preston, Bruce: On 3/31/03 you wrote: > > Drawings arrived today... Glad everything is falling into place. It was unbelievably good timing that those drawings came available when they did, and the fact that the drive train has been worked out is a major breakthrough. As you know, this is what nixed the project twice before. I have confirmed painting & lettering diagrams coming from the other two roads, so we'll have those two schemes to offer in addition to the two Pennsy schemes. The fact that the PRR always ran them in pairs will certainly get us to our minimum orders faster. Remember, only need the trainphone on one of the two units. I doubt we'll have any problem given the expected price and inclusion of sound and DCC for the HO version. On the N scale version, since sound won't be possible, can we look at including DCC? There's certainly enough room. If not your decoder, perhaps an NCE decoder? Remember, the PRRT&HS convention is in four weeks. We really need to get part numbers and firm up road numbers by then. Look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks for all your hard work on this project! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:27:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Project Update On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Chany, Christopher wrote: > As the forensic scientist on the list, looking at the evidence, I would say > Centipedes from Broadway Limited. (Although the n-scale is new to Broadway) As the sane guy, I'll go with "April Fooled" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 17:33:48 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Project Update That would be Centipedes, guessing from the info given... Is this a new way to celebrate April 1st, raising expectations of the poor SPF family? Just say itīs not true, and I can relax again. ;-) Burkhard Sanner Jerry Britton schrieb: > On 4/1/03 9:15 AM, Randy Williamson (pennsy@vbe.com) wrote: > > > What Project? > > Sorry, case of e-mail address "autofill" gone awry. Please disregard. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Project Update Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:43:45 -0500 Forgot it was April 1st, This ranks up there with "The Resin Rat" of a couple of years ago. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:28 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Project Update On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Chany, Christopher wrote: > As the forensic scientist on the list, looking at the evidence, I would say > Centipedes from Broadway Limited. (Although the n-scale is new to Broadway) As the sane guy, I'll go with "April Fooled" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] April Fool's Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:56:18 +0000 To raise the hopes of all us SPF's like that is indeed a very cruel joke bordering on the humorless. May all your trains derail in the least accesible spot for that one. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re-project update Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:46:32 -0500 Fred, Well at least this year we didn't have a link to a couple of photos of a gray painted brass loco claiming it was resin. Chris -----Original Message----- From: marlana freitas [mailto:mfreitas@sover.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 1997 4:27 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re-project update Bob, Chris, drive train will again be delayed> Easter Bunny is tied up for the next six weeks. This moves production back until we can get the great pumpkin to ship the J-series. And to think that I was reallocating funds in my mind for over 3 minutes! Senior moment, being over 55. Could you arrange for the most inconvenient spot to be the middle level , 12 track, staging yard>>>that sounded about right to me. Fred in Vt. { and still more snow this a.m. - beginning to understand why Bill V. speaks so fondly of it.} ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:15:37 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re-project update >Fred, > >Well at least this year we didn't have a link to a couple of photos of a >gray painted brass loco claiming it was resin. > >Chris Yeah, but boy the detail looked nice ...and we got nearly 30 requests to "reserve" models... Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:24:18 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] K-4 seats What material were the engineer's and fireman's seats in a K-4 made from? What color were they? Anyone know of a photo of the seats on line? Thanks. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] K-4 seats What material were the engineer's and fireman's seats in a K-4 made from? What color were they? Anyone know of a photo of the seats on line? Thanks. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] K-4 seats Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:58:15 -0500 All seat cushions were fabricated from a canvas like material that was covered on one side by black immitation leather. I had the upholstery shop fabricate a couple of camera cases using the material and I still have the cameras and bags, even though the 616 size film it used is no longer sold. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:24 PM To: PRR Fax; PRR Modeling; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] K-4 seats What material were the engineer's and fireman's seats in a K-4 made from? What color were they? Anyone know of a photo of the seats on line? Thanks. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Not PRR but April Fool anyway Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:08:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2F858.1BA95D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we are all on the subject of April Fools, this one is currently circulating in the railroad circles. Thought you might enjoy the day. WDV MEMORANDUM 4-1-03 Subject: Restroom Upgrades Due to the rising cost of maintenance on the train onboard restrooms, strong consideration is being given to the following modifications to our tariffs in the future... Magnetic card readers will be installed on all restroom doors that can be actuated by a passenger inserting his/her currently valid ticket into the slot and turning the handle counterclockwise. ONLY PASSENGERS WITH VALID TICKETS will be admitted to the restrooms. If a passenger purchasing a ticket from a ticket vending machine feels that he/she will be needing to use the restroom during the trip, an upgraded ticket must be purchased by pressing the "upgrade" button on the TVM. The extra 25-cent surcharge will go towards restroom maintenance funding. A flashing light on the TVM will remind the passenger to MAKE THIS DECISION NOW! For those struck with a "sudden urge", we will be equipping the doors with a voice recognition sensor that will automatically unlock the restroom when it senses a person swearing under duress. Security officers are asked not to advise the passengers of this in advance, lest the privilege will be abused. In order to further ration the use of restrooms, timers will be installed with a three-minute warning buzzer. This will give the patron 30 seconds to "finish up" before the restroom door automatically flings open. As an additional incentive, 15 seconds following the warning buzzer, the toilet paper holders will retract and the toilets will automatically flush. It is hoped that this action will result in cleaner and more available restrooms, pleasing all patrons to no end. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2F858.1BA95D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Since = we are all on=20 the subject of April Fools, this one is currently circulating in the = railroad=20 circles.
 
Thought you might=20 enjoy the day.
 
WDV
 

MEMORANDUM

 

 

4-1-03

 

 

Subject:           &nbs= p;           =20 Restroom Upgrades

 

Due to the rising cost of maintenance on the train onboard = restrooms,=20 strong consideration is being given to the following modifications to = our=20 tariffs in the future………

 

Magnetic card readers will be installed on all restroom doors = that can be=20 actuated by a passenger inserting his/her currently valid ticket into = the slot=20 and turning the handle counterclockwise. =20 ONLY PASSENGERS WITH VALID TICKETS will be admitted to the=20 restrooms.

 

If a passenger purchasing a ticket from a ticket vending = machine feels=20 that he/she will be needing to use the restroom during the trip, an = upgraded=20 ticket must be purchased by pressing the “upgrade” button on = the TVM.  The extra 25-cent surcharge = will go=20 towards restroom maintenance funding. =20 A flashing light on the TVM will remind the passenger to MAKE = THIS=20 DECISION NOW!

 

For those struck with a “sudden urge”, we will be = equipping the doors=20 with a voice recognition sensor that will automatically unlock the = restroom when=20 it senses a person swearing under duress. =20 Security officers are asked not to advise the passengers of this = in=20 advance, lest the privilege will be abused.

 

In order to further ration the use of restrooms, timers will be = installed=20 with a three-minute warning buzzer.  This will give the patron 30 = seconds to=20 “finish up” before the restroom door automatically flings = open.  As an additional incentive, 15 = seconds=20 following the warning buzzer, the toilet paper holders will retract and = the=20 toilets will automatically flush.

 

It is hoped that this action will result in cleaner and more = available=20 restrooms, pleasing all patrons to no end.

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2F858.1BA95D50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re-project update Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:21:25 -0500 OK Jerry, Time to come clean and admit it's an April Fool Joke. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:54:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re-project update From: Jerry Britton On 4/1/03 2:21 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Time to come clean and admit it's an April Fool Joke. > > Yeah, yeah, so my imagination is shot. But do you know how much pressure is on me to pull off a good one? Gary Mittner jumped right on this one. Only took him about five minutes to tell me he'd been "waiting all morning" for my post! So what's your favorite been? The two that top my list are: * The first time, when I announced I was merging my site with the Internet's largest NYC site, to economize; * When NS was acquiring Conrail and I announced that legal parties out of Virginia told me to quit using the PRR logo as it would be coming back into use. Mark Bej, in on the joke, reported the same. Totally by coincidence, Bruce Smith's site was down. He went along with it, saying he was told to take it down. Boy did the speculation go wild on that one. I even got a call from a reporter out of Altoona! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Restroom Upgrades Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:20:06 -0500 I kind of like it. Another way for Amtrak to raise revenue. And those of us who don't want to bother with the "extra fare" coupon can just use the vestibules or showers on sleepers. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:26:07 EST Subject: [PRR] April Fools Joke --part1_1c5.6ec218b.2bbb5def_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very glad this was a joke! One more Pennsy loco from BLI and I would need a second mortage and a divorce lawyer. Good one, Jerry B. and "crew". Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_1c5.6ec218b.2bbb5def_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Very glad this was a joke!  One more Penns= y loco from BLI and I would need a second mortage and a divorce lawyer.

   Good one, Jerry B. and "crew".

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_1c5.6ec218b.2bbb5def_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:47:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] April Fools Joke From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3132060443_11642686 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/1/03 4:26 PM, "RDG2124@aol.com" wrote: > Very glad this was a joke! One more Pennsy loco from BLI and I would n= eed a > second mortage and a divorce lawyer. >=20 > Good one, Jerry B. and "crew". >=20 >=20 Some folks got downright nasty! Geez, lighten up! There may not be any centipedes now, but I gotta tell you, if I were considering switching to N scale today, it wouldn=B9t happen. Don=B9t get me wrong, N is going great, and my design totally fits my needs and will end u= p providing even more than I asked for. But since I switched, HO scalers have seen the release/announcements of R50b=B9s, M1=B9s, T1=B9s, J1=B9s, VO1000=B9s, G39=B9s, etc. Would be very tough to talk myself into that switch now! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3132060443_11642686 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] April Fools Joke On 4/1/03 4:26 PM, "RDG2124@aol.com" <RDG= 2124@aol.com> wrote:

 Very glad this = was a joke!  One more Pennsy loco from BLI and I would need a second mo= rtage and a divorce lawyer.

   Good one, Jerry B. and "crew".


Some folks got downright nasty! Geez, li= ghten up!

There may not be any centipedes now, but I gotta tell you, if I were consid= ering switching to N scale today, it wouldn’t happen. Don’t get = me wrong, N is going great, and my design totally fits my needs and will end= up providing even more than I asked for.

But since I switched, HO scalers have seen the release/announcements of R50= b’s, M1’s, T1’s, J1’s, VO1000’s, G39’s, = etc. Would be very tough to talk myself into that switch now!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3132060443_11642686-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 18:11:05 -0500 From: Jerry Colman Subject: [PRR] Wanted Highline Back-Issues If anyone has a copy of "Highline" Vol. 1 or Vol 14 they would like to sell, please contact me off list at jcolman@on-net.net. Thanks, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] April Fools Joke Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:09:43 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F918.9A6CEC9A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jerry wrote: There may not be any centipedes now, but I gotta tell you, if I were considering switching to N scale today, it wouldn't happen. Don't get me wrong, N is going great, and my design totally fits my needs and will end up providing even more than I asked for. But since I switched, HO scalers have seen the release/announcements of R50b's, M1's, T1's, J1's, VO1000's, G39's, etc. Would be very tough to talk myself into that switch now! Jerry and list: Didn't the buzz this generated prove that we need Centipedes! Broadway Limited are you listening? Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F918.9A6CEC9A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Re: [PRR] April Fools Joke
 Jerry wrote: There may not be any centipedes now, but I gotta tell you, if I were considering switching to N scale today, it wouldn't happen. Don't get me wrong, N is going great, and my design totally fits my needs and will end up providing even more than I asked for.

But since I switched, HO scalers have seen the release/announcements of R50b's, M1's, T1's, J1's, VO1000's, G39's, etc. Would be very tough to talk myself into that switch now!
 
 Jerry and list:
 
Didn't the buzz this generated prove that we need Centipedes!  Broadway Limited are you listening?
 
 
Chris Chany
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F918.9A6CEC9A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Back Issue Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:22:25 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2F90A.234AF7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] April Fools JokeI am trying to get a copy of the issue of the = Keystone that had the first article on Renovo. I have the issue with = the second article from the 90's. Not sure of date - early 80's or 70's = I think. Also any Keystone with articles or significant coverage on = Williamsport. Can anyone help? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2F90A.234AF7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] April Fools Joke
I am trying to get a copy of the issue of the = Keystone=20 that had the first article on Renovo.  I have the issue with the = second=20 article from the 90's.  Not sure of date - early 80's or 70's I=20 think.  Also any Keystone with articles or significant coverage on=20 Williamsport.  Can anyone help?
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2F90A.234AF7A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:43:52 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: RE: [PRR] April Fools Joke On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Jerry wrote: There may not be any centipedes now, but I gotta tell you, if > I were considering switching to N scale today, it wouldn't happen. Don't get > me wrong, N is going great, and my design totally fits my needs and will end > up providing even more than I asked for. > Chris replied: > Jerry and list: > > Didn't the buzz this generated prove that we need Centipedes! Broadway > Limited are you listening? Chris, and all PRR-tlakers, As I indicated a couple of months ago, I am willing to push this project forward. Since that time I have recieved: 1) a stunning 16' long 3' wide drawing 2) complete roster information on the Seaboard units 3) photos (electronic) of the Seaborad schemes In addition, I have started to calalog detail variants (phases) on the PRR units. Still needed are paint and lettering diagrams for PRR, Seaboard, NdeM and roster info for the NdeM. Happy Rails (on the road - from PRR territory - Washington DC!) Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 21:16:09 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Looking for Jim Foster Hi All, I am looking for Jim Foster in the Philadelphia area. According to Frank Kozempel, he and Jim used to shoot the PRSL in the mid 50s. Frank also said that Jim sells O Scale trains. Jim, if you are on line, please contact me. If not, does anyone have a phone number? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:39:53 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] what is it? I was in Parksley yesterday, home of the Eastern Shore RR Museum. New to the grounds is a wood sided, steel outside braced tool or work car in rough shape but basically sound. I could find no markings anywhere, or anyone to talk to and ask about it. It looks like an X-23 to me based on drawings on at http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html with 4 small window per side and end doors. I have some digital photos but don't know how to post them on Jerry's site. Jim McDaniel, reporting from Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 00:03:13 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] PRRTHS national meeting To everyon who have sent in registration forms: Originally, we were going to send a postcard to each registrant with a confimation number. I thought about it, and decided to only send a postcard to those who do not have an e-mail address to save the society mailing cost, postcard cost, and time. For everyone who is on this list, you will be receiving a confirmation e-mail within the next few days confirming your registration. Confirmation emails will go out according like the timely manner we are receiving the registrations. If a trip fills up, you will be notified so you can change your agenda accordingly. Your PRRTHS National membership number will be your confirmation number. For those bring their BETTER Halfs! a letter "b" will be placed after their own registration number unless the significant other is already a member. Thier were some concerns about the way the trips were listed in the flyer and how they appeared on the registration form (a slight mis-print). For the record: C & A trip A is the morning, Trip B is the afternoon. Juniata Terminal Trip A is the morning and Trip B is the afternoon. If you go with the way it is printed on the registration form, we will have no problems. So far, no problems have come up. The registration desk will have registration packets in alphabetical order. Everything is falling into place as expected. If you know people who do not have an e-mail address, you can let them know about the process or they can find out via snail mail. I look forward to meeting all of you at the meeting. See you in May. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Registration Committee Chair. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Is it just me? Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 07:32:51 -0500 Is it just me or is there not have been any messages lately? Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] List master Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 08:01:09 -0500 Jerry, I have not received any postings since Wednesday, would check to see that my e-mail address has not been removed? Thanks Charlie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 08:14:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR X56 Hi All, I was corresponding with someone earlier this year that I thought was looking for PRR X56 photos. I did not have them then, but do now. Feel free to contact me if you are still interested. I just received 35 Builders photos that show the entire construction process very well, up to the completed cars. There was a lot of concentration on making the center sill that included a large cylinder that may have been hydraulic. It was definitely used in shock dampening somehow. Also included were the 3 views of the trucks used. While this car was built later then my modeling interests, it is still a PRR car, and it is very interesting to me to see the construction processes at work. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 08:14:38 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR X56 Hi All, I was corresponding with someone earlier this year that I thought was looking for PRR X56 photos. I did not have them then, but do now. Feel free to contact me if you are still interested. I just received 35 Builders photos that show the entire construction process very well, up to the completed cars. There was a lot of concentration on making the center sill that included a large cylinder that may have been hydraulic. It was definitely used in shock dampening somehow. Also included were the 3 views of the trucks used. While this car was built later then my modeling interests, it is still a PRR car, and it is very interesting to me to see the construction processes at work. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:36:11 -0500 Subject: [PRR] We're Back! (We Think!) From: Listmaster After yet another three day bout with my ISP, saying it was at my end, the phone company finally came out and agreed that it was an ISP error. We're technically back online, but the immediate traffic is very heavy and things could be quite slow. Please be patient over the next few hours. Thanks. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Test Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:20:05 -0500

Just checking to see if the list is up. I have not received anything in a few days. The BLI GG1 is now listed as coming out this July. The Class A is now list as May. I wonder where this puts the M1a/b.
Eric
 
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:57:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] April Fools Joke From: Jerry Britton On 4/2/03 8:43 PM, "Bruce F Smith" wrote: > Still needed are paint and lettering diagrams for PRR, Seaboard, NdeM and > roster info for the NdeM. > Rails Northeast has the P&L diagrams for both BP60 and BH50. I have a copy that I was looking at last night. I think it was January 1980. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 14:06:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cresson - Some Final Thoughts on Dates From: Jerry Britton I previously had indicated my research led me to believe the steam facility was still at Cresson circa 1954. Recently others led me to believe that was not the case. I am now certain I was correct, based on the following: 1) A valuation map current as of 1955 that shows "no changes" since 1948. It also shows the suggested removal of steam tracks and the suggested addition of diesel tracks. Since the diesel helpers were just being purchased in the late 1940's and early 1950's, it is doubtful that the facility would have converted immediately. 2) Steam service was alive and well on the Cresson-based branches well into the 1950's. They were serviced at Cresson and would have continued to need service. 3) Pat McKinney found a person who worked for the railroad out of Pitcairn through 1955. He recollected the steam shop was still there when he left. It was gone when he returned in 1964. 4) A valuation map current through 1958 that shows changes in '57 and '58. This leads me to believe the earliest change would have been 1957. 5) Under my nose the entire time was the January 1980 issue of Rails Northeast, with an article on the Cresson Roundhouse! The text is quite "iffy" and provides no exact dates. But more importantly are SEVERAL photos by Phil Hastings of the diesels being serviced right on the Gallitzin loop tracks in 1956. It is well documented that Hastings was photographing the area in 1956, so these dates are probably accurate. Therefore, It is my hypothesis that the facility changed from steam to diesel no earlier than 1957 and no later than 1958. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR M1a/b [was: Test] Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:32:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_080F_01C2FB88.877F34E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eric--Check Tony's Train Exchange for the latest. Go to http://www.ttx-dcc.com/locoreserve/broadway.htm Looks like August this year. Note that I am not suggesting you get your = M1 from him, but that is a good date summary. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_080F_01C2FB88.877F34E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric--Check Tony's Train Exchange = for the=20 latest.  Go to
 
http://www.ttx-d= cc.com/locoreserve/broadway.htm
 
Looks like August this year.  Note = that I am=20 not suggesting you get your M1 from him, but that is a good date=20 summary.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_080F_01C2FB88.877F34E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:41:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR M1a/b [was: Test] From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 04:32 PM, Steve Hoxie wrote: > Hi Eric--Check Tony's Train Exchange for the latest.  Go to >   > http://www.ttx-dcc.com/locoreserve/broadway.htm >   > Looks like August this year.  Note that I am not suggesting you get > your M1 from him, but that is a good date summary. > Everyone needs to really take dates with a grain of salt. Just last week I received an "official dealer update" from BLI. It indicated that 7 of the GG-1 schemes would ship in the first release, instead of the 3 originally announced. The ETA was still holding from spring. Yet just days later, their web site now says July!!! I'm also amazed that, with the M slated for summer and the T slated for Fall, that the new NW2/SW7 are also scheduled for release this Fall. My advice: Don't hold your breath! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:21:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re- K4 & J1 Bell List, With the help from prr-talk member Steve Prosser, I now have a few sound samples of my Brass/Bronze PRR Bell and a Rolled Steel PRR Bell. Below are 2 .wav files. The first listed is the standard Brass/Bronze Bell, which is assumed to be from K4s 5389. The second is that of a Rolled Steel PRR J1 Bell, J1 number unknown. Plainly heard are the difference in the sounds. Warning, if you do not have a fast modem, please give them a few minutes to load and adjust your speakers accordingly. (note--these wav files really don't do the Bell sounds justice like one would hear if in person, but you will get the idea) K4s Bell: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/kbell.wav J1 Bell: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/jbell.wav A bit of history (from what I have been able to learn anyway) on the J1 Bell. Last year after I had purchased the Bell, the obvious question for me was to find out what Loco it came from. We know that 3 different PRR Class (and subclass) Steam Locos were built during the war. The Q's, T's and J's. Because of the War certain metals were in "rationed". Bell Brass Bronze was one of them. We do know however that the T's and Q's had Brass/Bronze Bells installed, photo evidence shows this. That meant the J1 was the only other candidate for this Steel Bell. Personal recollections also stated that the J1 Bell sounded different. More like todays diesels but with more of a "clung". After inspecting the J1 Bell further I noticed something strange. It looks like the Pennsy fabricated this Bell. One would have assumed it was made of 1 piece cast steel. It is not. The Bell was fabricated from 3 seperate pieces. First, you have 2 halves (rolled from plate steel). These were then welded together and the seams machined/ground flat. Then a top piece was machined with a cone then welded in place from the inside. That weld bead is plainly seen when looking in the inside. A standard PRR Air Clapper was then installed. I am not sure yet how the Bell was mounted behind the Pilot. I assume similar to the way diesel bells are mounted today with a flat plate. I just learned several days ago that when the J1's were retired, some Bells where then donated to other power. One was witnessed on a P5 Boxcab. That Clung Clung sound was unmistakenable. I will relay this sound bite to Broadway Limited Imports so they can sample the sound as well. This is the sound their new J needs to have. If QSI does not have this sound in their files, maybe a standard Diesel Bell wIll work? At least it would be better than a brass sounding bell that will most likely be used :-(......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 12:04:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BLI Update From: Jerry Britton Just yesterday I pointed out that the ETA's Broadway Limited was providing to their dealers (via a dealer mailing two weeks ago) conflicted with what is on their web site. I received another dealer mailing yesterday. It now syncs with the web site and indicates the GG-1's were bounced to July. HOWEVER, BLI has now announced April 30th as the final date for ordering GG-1's with guaranteed delivery. So if you want one, get your order in soon (somewhere). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 14:18:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Keystone --part1_198.1851bae6.2bc1c975_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone received the latest issue of the Keystone? I understand there was some type of computer problem and they were delayed. My last issue was Vol 35, #4, Winter 2002. Is there a more recent issue? Thanks, Roger Huber --part1_198.1851bae6.2bc1c975_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone received the latest issue of the Keystone?=20= I understand there was some type of computer problem and they were delayed.=20= My last issue was Vol 35, #4, Winter 2002. Is there a more recent issue?

Thanks,
Roger Huber --part1_198.1851bae6.2bc1c975_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 14:24:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone On Sun, 6 Apr 2003 Huber25@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone received the latest issue of the Keystone? I understand there was > some type of computer problem and they were delayed. My last issue was Vol > 35, #4, Winter 2002. Is there a more recent issue? A few days ago. (Trafford PA 15085) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:00:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Color of M70b window grates Hello list, What color should the window grates be for the M70b? I'm almost done with my Bethelhem Car Works M70b. I've searched throughout the Spring 1993 Keystone; no color photos of the M70b there or in any of the Morning Sun Color guides. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 15:33:10 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] driveshafts Hi All, Does anyone know where I can get drive shafts like this? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/driveshaft.jpg I know that Overland models come with them. I added the piece of brass square stock in a pinch. They are typically all plastic, and are telescopic. They need to be for all scales, since I need them for S Scale. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] I gotta Complaint Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:18:49 -0400 Vince, Yes, I share your frustration, but there are several reasons behind what's in the Keystone. First, Chuck needs people to write the articles - he can only choose from what he's got on hand. Second, a lot of SPF's (slobbering Pennsy freaks) are really interested in the stuff that appears. Hopper cars that appear all the same to you and me are as different as night and day to others. As for some of those lists, lists of locomotive assignments or a CT-1000 (list of stations and sidings etc.) can keep me fascinated for hours on end. It's differences of opinion that make horse races and an interesting archive of Keystones. As I think back on past Keystones, there are issues I've nearly worn out going back to them again and again. So patience, Vince - Chuck will get to your areas of interest. If I remember correctly, aren't you Capt. Vinny, the retired towboat Captain? If so, why not get some help/guidance and research/write an article on the Pennsy's river crossings in the Steel City, for example? Or an article on how towboat loads and the Pennsy interfaced. Bet you shoved a lot of coal! Iron ore? Hope this somehow helps! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vince Miller" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: [PRR] I gotta Complaint > I have been recieving the Keystone for maybe 4-5 years , I'm not > quite sure . I've had this PRR talk maybe two years . I am not , by any > stretch of the imagination , a railroad nut , and I don't mean that as a > put down to any of You . I just don't have the knowlege most of you have > about railroads , let alone the Pennsy . > I got interested as a kid , and have loved Trains ever since . In a > bookstore , I ran into two booklets " The Pennsy in the Steel City" and > The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle " These two little books > are fantastic , especially so because I live here in the X-Steel City . > Soon after I found out about the Keystone , I joined , and have been a > member ever since . > Now for my complaint , Some of the Magazines articles are very > interesting , some not so . This latest is almost entirely about Dining > Cars , another was mostly about Hopper Cars . I am sure some people > put lots of time , and work into the projects , and did a thorough Job , > so why is there a picture of a "K4" on the cover ? I suppose all those > lists are important , same with the Hopper Car article , all I got from > it was all Hopper Cars look alike , except for miner details . Seems to > me there must still be lots of former Pennys Rail-road Workers out there > who have great stories to tell , so why not more of that kind of stuff ? > One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches . > Vince Miller > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Magazine Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:23:55 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2FC58.EBACFEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received my Spring issue last Thursday. I was looking for an article I = had written that was to be in this issue, it wasn't. Lee BURBAGE ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2FC58.EBACFEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I received my Spring issue last Thursday. I was looking for an = article I=20 had written that was to be in this issue, it wasn't.
 
Lee BURBAGE
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2FC58.EBACFEE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Complaint Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:32:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2FC5A.13CAA8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vince Miller registered his complaint about the Keystone. I too was = disappointed. I have worked on 4 different Railroads Including the = Pennsy and I have tried to write short but interesting articles about = the Railroad down here on the Delmarva Peninsula for the readres. It is kinda hard to get any articles printed but by the same token the = Editor does the best he can in the situation of having so many articles = to choose from to print in the magazine. I like Mr. Miller don't really = favor an issue all about one particular Car but sometimes it has to be = if we like it or not. All things taken into account where can we find a magazine that is = devoted to the Pennsylvania Railroad so completely? Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret. And Ex-Railroader. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2FC5A.13CAA8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vince Miller registered his complaint about the Keystone. I too was = disappointed. I have worked on 4 different Railroads Including the = Pennsy and I=20 have tried to write short but interesting articles about the Railroad = down here=20 on the Delmarva Peninsula for the readres.
 
It is kinda hard to get any articles printed but by the same token = the=20 Editor does the best he can in the situation of having so many articles = to=20 choose from to print in the magazine. I like Mr. Miller don't really = favor an=20 issue all about one particular Car but sometimes it has to be if we like = it or=20 not.
 
All things taken into account where can we find a magazine that is = devoted=20 to the Pennsylvania Railroad so completely?
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
 
And Ex-Railroader.
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2FC5A.13CAA8E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:09:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone --part1_142.e8fa1bc.2bc1f1a2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I still haven't received my Spring issue but I did receive the Annual Meeting registration package.... --part1_142.e8fa1bc.2bc1f1a2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I still haven't received my Spring issue but I did rec= eive the Annual Meeting registration package.... --part1_142.e8fa1bc.2bc1f1a2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] driveshafts Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:13:49 +0000 Hobbytown made ones that are similar. You get a universal joint that press fits on to the square shaft and one that free floats on the shaft at the other end. Any length square brass stock could be substituted for the supplied piece that is about three inches long. An exact duplicate - never saw that one before. > Hi All, > > Does anyone know where I can get drive shafts like this? > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/driveshaft.jpg I know that Overland > models come with them. I added the piece of brass square stock in a pinch. > They are typically all plastic, and are telescopic. They need to be for all > scales, since I need them for S Scale. > > Please reply to billlane@comcast.net > > Thanks > Bill > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:44:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3132499468_5960581 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4/6/03 5:09 PM, "Chrisandbelton2@aol.com" wrote: > I still haven't received my Spring issue but I did receive the Annual Meeting > registration package.... I received the Spring issue of the Keystone yesterday. The entire issue is an excellent article on the D78 class diners by Chuck Blardone. He did an awesome job and this article will be of great use to those modeling passenger service. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3132499468_5960581 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Keystone On 4/6/03 5:09 PM, "Chrisandbelton2@aol.com"= <Chrisandbelton2@aol.com> wrote:

I still haven't receiv= ed my Spring issue but I did receive the Annual Meeting registration package= ....

I received the Spring issue of the Keystone yesterday. The entire issue is = an excellent article on the D78 class diners by Chuck Blardone. He did an aw= esome job and this article will be of great use to those modeling passenger = service.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3132499468_5960581-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:46:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] I gotta Complaint From: Jerry Britton On 4/7/03 4:16 PM, "Vince Miller" wrote: > One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches . If the press can't satisfy you, you may not be aware of the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy" section of my Keystone Crossings web site. It has histories of dozens of branches and a I am always interested in publishing more. Take a look... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" Can anyone tell me the going price for a first edition Pennsy Power 2 book in mint condition is now a days? And is the book still in print? Thanks in advance, Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 20:10:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Book has been out of print for many years. Al Stouffer told me personally it would not be reprinted because the majority of its content went into PP3 as well. On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 07:35 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Can anyone tell me the going price for a first edition Pennsy > Power > 2 book in mint condition is now a days? And is the book still in print? > Thanks in advance, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" Thanks Guys....... I want to replace my old and beat up copy of Pennsy Power 2. I saw one today at the Timonium train show and went to purchase it. The guy wanted 150.00 for the book. OUCH!!! I passed. Maybe I'll see one at the PRRT&HS Annual meet. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:11:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Some of the used book vendors at the convention are greedy. You may or may not do better there. I bought mine on eBay for about $30. On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 09:04 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > I want to replace my old and beat up copy of Pennsy Power 2. I > saw > one today at the Timonium train show and went to purchase it. The guy > wanted 150.00 for the book. OUCH!!! > I passed. > Maybe I'll see one at the PRRT&HS Annual meet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:41:07 -0400 List, I'm on the board of the local Friends of the Public Libraries and got Pennsy Power II and two other steam locomotive books, including the Baldwin Locomotive Works history for $2.00 for all 3. I didn't get a lower price, I only got the chance to look through the surplus books before the public did at a book sale. Talk about serendiipity. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" > Some of the used book vendors at the convention are greedy. You may or > may not do better there. I bought mine on eBay for about $30. > > On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 09:04 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > > I want to replace my old and beat up copy of Pennsy Power 2. I > > saw > > one today at the Timonium train show and went to purchase it. The guy > > wanted 150.00 for the book. OUCH!!! > > I passed. > > Maybe I'll see one at the PRRT&HS Annual meet. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Craig Williams" Subject: Re: [PRR] I gotta Complaint Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:30:23 -0400 Vince Miller wrote: One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches . My question to Vince Miller is, why don't you write such an article? Craig Williams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 09:25:31 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] driveshafts Bill, Have you tried Athearn's drive parts? They have several styles of telescoping universal drive shafts for their pre Genisis diesels. They are inexpensive, rugged, quiet, and usually in stock. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bill Lane wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone know where I can get drive shafts like this? > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/driveshaft.jpg I know that Overland > models come with them. I added the piece of brass square stock in a pinch. > They are typically all plastic, and are telescopic. They need to be for all > scales, since I need them for S Scale. > > Please reply to billlane@comcast.net > > Thanks > Bill > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:27:13 -0400 A convention of two ago I remember seeing Al Stauffer with most of his books for sale (and happy to autograph them). Otherwise check Jerry's Merchandise Service, Strassberg RR. Bookstore, or Amazon.com. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 7:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" > > Can anyone tell me the going price for a first edition Pennsy Power > 2 book in mint condition is now a days? And is the book still in print? > Thanks in advance, > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 15:52:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Coming Sunday From: Jerry Britton This coming Sunday, April 13th, the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS will meet at 1:30 p.m. at the Otterbein United Methodist Church, York, Pa. Following the business meeting will be shown a video tape of a presentation Ed (?) Wrable gave at the 1995 convention on the PRR's Maryland Division. He authored the feature length article on Baltimore that appeared in The Keystone around the same time. You do not need to be a member to attend. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:01:26 +0100 Dave, I managed to pick up a copy for STG35 ( aboust us$ 56) last November Patrick www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 12:35 AM Subject: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" > > Can anyone tell me the going price for a first edition Pennsy Power > 2 book in mint condition is now a days? And is the book still in print? > Thanks in advance, > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:16:35 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: [PRR] I gotta Complaint I have been recieving the Keystone for maybe 4-5 years , I'm not quite sure . I've had this PRR talk maybe two years . I am not , by any stretch of the imagination , a railroad nut , and I don't mean that as a put down to any of You . I just don't have the knowlege most of you have about railroads , let alone the Pennsy . I got interested as a kid , and have loved Trains ever since . In a bookstore , I ran into two booklets " The Pennsy in the Steel City" and The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle " These two little books are fantastic , especially so because I live here in the X-Steel City . Soon after I found out about the Keystone , I joined , and have been a member ever since . Now for my complaint , Some of the Magazines articles are very interesting , some not so . This latest is almost entirely about Dining Cars , another was mostly about Hopper Cars . I am sure some people put lots of time , and work into the projects , and did a thorough Job , so why is there a picture of a "K4" on the cover ? I suppose all those lists are important , same with the Hopper Car article , all I got from it was all Hopper Cars look alike , except for miner details . Seems to me there must still be lots of former Pennys Rail-road Workers out there who have great stories to tell , so why not more of that kind of stuff ? One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches . Vince Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:10:27 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" Al also usually has a table/display at the York TCA show which will be held April 25th and 26th this year. Bill morlitz >William Bigler wrote: > > A convention of two ago I remember seeing Al Stauffer with most of his books > for sale (and happy to autograph them). Otherwise check Jerry's Merchandise > Service, Strassberg RR. Bookstore, or Amazon.com. > > Bill > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 7:35 PM > Subject: [PRR] Price on "Pennsy Power 2" > > > > > Can anyone tell me the going price for a first edition Pennsy Power > > 2 book in mint condition is now a days? And is the book still in print? > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Beware Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:12:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2FD31.3904B5B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Currently on auction on E-bay are several items that Eric and I believe = have been improperly removed from our collections and are being offered = for sale without our consent. We are currently taking steps through the = justice system to try to recover our property. The items currently offered are a PRR ink well that was purchased at a = Mauer Auction, A big Wheels in Safety Award, and several files of PRR = builder's photographs. While there is not much that can be done at this time to stop the sale = of these items I want everyone to know we are taking steps to recover = our property. We also believe that this has been going on for a protracted period of = time, and that Eric and I are not the only victims of this = misappropiation of property and its conversion and sale on E-bay by the = party that is offering them for sale. Bennett Levin Click here: eBay item 2168989047 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - 12 = RARE PRR RAILROAD PHOTOS BUSINESS CAR Z74=20 Click here: eBay item 2168756571 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - 5 RARE = PRR RAILROAD BLDR PHOTOS X54A BOXCAR=20 Click here: eBay item 2169012694 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - RARE = PRR 1800'S RAILROAD INK WELL AWESOME=20 Click here: eBay item 3217617023 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - 30 PRR = RAILROAD PULLMAN ACF BUILDERS PHOTOS=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2FD31.3904B5B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Currently on auction on E-bay are = several items=20 that Eric and I believe have been improperly removed from our = collections and=20 are being offered for sale without our consent. We are currently taking = steps=20 through the justice system to try to recover our property.
 
The items currently offered are a PRR = ink well that=20 was purchased at a Mauer Auction, A big Wheels in Safety Award, and = several=20 files of PRR builder's photographs.
 
While there is not much that can be = done at this=20 time to stop the sale of these items I want everyone to know we are = taking steps=20 to recover our property.
 
We also believe that this has been = going on for a=20 protracted period of time, and that Eric and I are not the = only=20 victims of this misappropiation of property and its conversion and sale = on E-bay=20 by the party that is offering them for sale.
 
 
Bennett Levin
 
 
Click here: eBay item 2168989047 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - 12 RARE PRR RAILROAD PHOTOS BUSINESS CAR Z74
 
Click here: eBay item 2168756571 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - 5 RARE PRR RAILROAD BLDR PHOTOS X54A BOXCAR

Click here: eBay item 2169012694 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - RARE PRR 1800'S RAILROAD INK WELL AWESOME=20
 
Click here: eBay item 3217617023 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - 30 PRR RAILROAD PULLMAN ACF BUILDERS PHOTOS
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2FD31.3904B5B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Beware Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:15:24 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2FD31.A89C0FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Currently on auction on E-bay are several items that Eric and I believe = have been improperly removed from our collections and are being offered = for sale without our consent. We are currently taking steps through the = justice system to try to recover our property. The items currently offered are a PRR ink well that was purchased at a = Mauer Auction, A big Wheels in Safety Award, and several files of PRR = builder's photographs. While there is not much that can be done at this time to stop the sale = of these items I want everyone to know we are taking steps to recover = our property. We also believe that this has been going on for a protracted period of = time, and that Eric and I are not the only victims of this = misappropiation of property and its conversion and sale on E-bay. Bennett Levin Click here: eBay item 2168989047 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - 12 = RARE PRR RAILROAD PHOTOS BUSINESS CAR Z74=20 Click here: eBay item 2168756571 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - 5 RARE = PRR RAILROAD BLDR PHOTOS X54A BOXCAR=20 Click here: eBay item 2169012694 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - RARE = PRR 1800'S RAILROAD INK WELL AWESOME=20 Click here: eBay item 3217629099 (Ends Apr-13-03 17:00:00 PDT ) - RARE = PRR RAILROAD AWARD "BIG WHEELERS "=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2FD31.A89C0FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Currently on auction on E-bay are = several items=20 that Eric and I believe have been improperly removed from our = collections and=20 are being offered for sale without our consent. We are currently taking = steps=20 through the justice system to try to recover our property.
 
The items currently offered are a PRR = ink well that=20 was purchased at a Mauer Auction, A big Wheels in Safety Award, and = several=20 files of PRR builder's photographs.
 
While there is not much that can be = done at this=20 time to stop the sale of these items I want everyone to know we are = taking steps=20 to recover our property.
 
We also believe that this has been = going on for a=20 protracted period of time, and that Eric and I are not the = only=20 victims of this misappropiation of property and its conversion and sale = on=20 E-bay.
 
 
Bennett Levin
 
Click here: eBay item 2168989047 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - 12 RARE PRR RAILROAD PHOTOS BUSINESS CAR Z74
 
Click here: eBay item 2168756571 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - 5 RARE PRR RAILROAD BLDR PHOTOS X54A BOXCAR

Click here: eBay item 2169012694 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - RARE PRR 1800'S RAILROAD INK WELL AWESOME=20
 

Click here: eBay item 3217629099 (Ends Apr-13-03 = 17:00:00 PDT=20 ) - RARE PRR RAILROAD AWARD "BIG WHEELERS "=20
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2FD31.A89C0FE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:22:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Beware --part1_1e5.63b9de7.2bc3542c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you notified ebay? Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 --part1_1e5.63b9de7.2bc3542c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you notified ebay?

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001


 --part1_1e5.63b9de7.2bc3542c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:02:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Critiquing the Keystone --part1_151.1df51c47.2bc37996_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/7/03 1:11:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Now for my complaint , Some of the Magazines articles are very > interesting , some not so . This latest is almost entirely about Dining > Cars , another was mostly about Hopper Cars . I am sure some people > put lots of time , and work into the projects , and did a thorough Job , > so why is there a picture of a "K4" on the cover ? I suppose all those > lists are important , same with the Hopper Car article , all I got from > it was all Hopper Cars look alike , except for miner details . Seems to > me there must still be lots of former Pennys Rail-road Workers out there > who have great stories to tell , so why not more of that kind of stuff ? > One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches . > Vince Miller Hi Vince, You ask good and valid questions. I probably shouldn't put in my 2 cents worth (I'm the criminal that wrote the extremely long article on covered hopper car lettering in 2000), but let me offer some comments on Keystone article content: 1. The magazine is written by the members. Every article is researched, written, and usually has pictures provided by the author. Thus, what you will see is a series of pieces on things that one person thought was worthwhile to present. 2. The magazine is edited and moderated by a volunteer named Chuck Blardone. As editor, Chuck has the almost thankless job of editing, supplementing with photos, formatting for publication, and whatever else it takes to get the magazine to the printers. Often, as you've noted, he will use a cover (and often back cover) that doesn't dovetail with the contents. It may happen that the photos provided by the authors just didn't include a good vertical suitable as the front cover. In addition, he brings along newbie authors like me -- and almost never loses his temper. This gentlemen does this job as far as I can see because he's qualified to do it and loves turning out a first-rate product for the Society. Of course, Chuck is just one of the hardworking volunteers that makes the PRRT&HS an outstanding organization. 3. The Keystone in particular and any magazine in general deals with many subjects in its lifetime. Over the years, many articles on engines, rolling stock, key sites, not-so-key branch lines, buildings, and the people of the Pennsy have already appeared. You're coming in in the middle of the process -- with many subjects covered to some degree, and for that matter with some of our original experts/authors gone to their reward. I'd suggest that no one is likely to be enthralled with each article, but each article has its enthusiasts -- and the body of knowledge on the Pennsy is increased. Also, don't be surprised to go back to old issues and find out that which didn't thrill you then is a winner now. 4. Bottom line -- the magazine, like the Society, is very much what we elect to make of it. I'm told by my friends that the Keystone is a best-of-kind -- for UP or C&O modelers to say it's a good magazine is praise indeed. I'm glad your'e concerned with content and appeal -- that bodes well for the future. As new folks join the Society, I think they need to take their place as students of the Pennsy, informed critics of the Keystone's articles, and ultimately writers of articles themselves. The ultimate tragedy for the Keystone would be if its readers don't care about its content -- fortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon. 5. You mention you're interested in some branch lines. I'd love to know more about those around Pittsburgh, where you live. You can shake a lot of info loose here on PRR-Talk. Ask questions about your Pennsy neighborhood, and then follow up any leads into books, magazines, the Internet sites, and to nearby libraries. Once your research is gathered and starts to make sense, you might decide to write the article, or through Chuck Blardone seek an author who could co-write with you. I think Chuck would agree with me that it's good to stay dissatisfied with the Keystone -- that way, we can look forward to improving it. Hope to meet you at an annual meeting, this year or maybe next year upriver in Cincinnati... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_151.1df51c47.2bc37996_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/7/03 1:11:24 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Now for my  complaint , So= me of the Magazines articles are very
interesting , some not so . This latest is almost entirely about Dining
Cars , another  was mostly about Hopper Cars .  I am sure some peo= ple
put lots of time , and work into the projects , and did a thorough Job ,
so why is there a picture of a "K4" on the cover ? I suppose all those
lists are important , same with the Hopper Car article , all I got from
it was all Hopper Cars look alike , except for miner details . Seems to
me there must still be lots of former Pennys Rail-road Workers out there
who have great stories to tell , so why not more of that kind of stuff ?
One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches .
       Vince Miller


Hi Vince,

You ask good and valid questions.  I probably shouldn't put in my 2 cen= ts worth (I'm the criminal that wrote the extremely long article on covered=20= hopper car lettering in 2000), but let me offer some comments on Keystone ar= ticle content:

1.  The magazine is written by the members.  Every article is rese= arched, written, and usually has pictures provided by the author.  Thus= , what you will see is a series of pieces on things that one person thought=20= was worthwhile to present.

2.  The magazine is edited and moderated by a volunteer named Chuck Bla= rdone.   As editor, Chuck has the almost thankless job of editing,= supplementing with photos, formatting for publication, and whatever else it= takes to get the magazine to the printers.  Often, as you've noted, he= will use a cover (and often back cover) that doesn't dovetail with the cont= ents.  It may happen that the photos provided by the authors just didn'= t include a good vertical suitable as the front cover.

In addition, he brings along newbie authors like me -- and almost never lose= s his temper.  This gentlemen does this job as far as I can see because= he's qualified to do it and loves turning out a first-rate product for the=20= Society.  Of course, Chuck is just one of the hardworking volunteers th= at makes the PRRT&HS an outstanding organization.

3.  The Keystone in particular and any magazine in general deals with m= any subjects in its lifetime.  Over the years, many articles on engines= , rolling stock, key sites, not-so-key branch lines, buildings, and the peop= le of the Pennsy have already appeared.  You're coming in in the middle= of the process -- with many subjects covered to some degree, and for that m= atter with some of our original experts/authors gone to their reward. =20= I'd suggest that no one is likely to be enthralled with each article, but ea= ch article has its enthusiasts -- and the body of knowledge on the Pennsy is= increased.  Also, don't be surprised to go back to old issues and find= out that which didn't thrill you then is a winner now.

4.  Bottom line -- the magazine, like the Society, is very much what we= elect to make of it.  I'm told by my friends that the Keystone is a be= st-of-kind -- for UP or C&O modelers to say it's a good magazine is prai= se indeed.  I'm glad your'e concerned with content and appeal -- that b= odes well for the future.  As new folks join the Society, I think they=20= need to take their place as students of the Pennsy, informed critics of the=20= Keystone's articles, and ultimately writers of articles themselves.  Th= e ultimate tragedy for the Keystone would be if its readers don't care about= its content -- fortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon.

5.  You mention you're interested in some branch lines.  I'd love=20= to know more about those around Pittsburgh, where you live.  You can sh= ake a lot of info loose here on PRR-Talk.  Ask questions about your Pen= nsy neighborhood, and then follow up any leads into books, magazines, the In= ternet sites, and to nearby libraries.  Once your research is gathered=20= and starts to make sense, you might decide to write the article, or through=20= Chuck Blardone seek an author who could co-write with you.

I think Chuck would agree with me that it's good to stay dissatisfied with t= he Keystone -- that way, we can look forward to improving it.  Hope to=20= meet you at an annual meeting, this year or maybe next year upriver in Cinci= nnati...


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_151.1df51c47.2bc37996_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 23:44:38 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] I gotta Complaint I guess I stirred up the bean pot with my remark about the Keystone , being boring once in a while ,well I'm sorry , but it is . As for your suggestion about me writing an article about a branch line , I'll look into it , maybe I will !! I'm interested in the Branch from Bradley Junction to Cherrytree . Have any idea where I could find any information . I don't even know the name of it , so you see I have a long way to go . I really look forward to getting my Keystone every quarter , so I'm sorry if I hurt some feelings , but some of this is far too detailed for me . Vince Miller Craig Williams wrote: > Vince Miller wrote: > > One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches . > > > My question to Vince Miller is, why don't you write such an article? > > Craig Williams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:54:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Streamlined Steam No responses received on this query, so I thought I'd try again. Does anyone know if any of the streamlined K-4s assigned to St. Louis trains ever ran all the way east to Pittsburgh, or vice versa, running from Pittsburgh to St Louis? Thank you. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Streamlined Steam No responses received on this query, so I thought I'd try again. Does anyone know if any of the streamlined K-4s assigned to St. Louis trains ever ran all the way east to Pittsburgh, or vice versa, running from Pittsburgh to St Louis? Thank you. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save Smiley. Help put Messenger back in the office. http://us.click.yahoo.com/4PqtEC/anyFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:32:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam Ron, I have no specific data on that, but I don't think ANY steam ever ran that far. How far is Pittsburgh to St. Louis - 600 miles +/-? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ronald Di Orio wrote: > No responses received on this query, so I thought I'd > try again. Does anyone know if any of the streamlined > K-4s assigned to St. Louis trains ever ran all the way > east to Pittsburgh, or vice versa, running from > Pittsburgh to St Louis? Thank you. Ron ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save Smiley. Help put Messenger back in the office. http://us.click.yahoo.com/4PqtEC/anyFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:32:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam Ron, I have no specific data on that, but I don't think ANY steam ever ran that far. How far is Pittsburgh to St. Louis - 600 miles +/-? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ronald Di Orio wrote: > No responses received on this query, so I thought I'd > try again. Does anyone know if any of the streamlined > K-4s assigned to St. Louis trains ever ran all the way > east to Pittsburgh, or vice versa, running from > Pittsburgh to St Louis? Thank you. Ron ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] visit Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:39:48 GMT Now that it looks like the prr-talk is back online I will send this quick. I will be headed for the central Pa. area for a vacation from April 12th to the 20th and was wondering if there would be any club/home layouts open for a visit in that timeframe. Thanks in advance, Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Loco Whistle help List I was contacted by someone who viewed and listened to my K4 Whistle wav file that I have on my K4 website. He is a Live Steam modeler and wishes to duplcate this Whistle and sound on his 1/8" Scale K4. He asked me what the 3 notes the PRR used were. I do remember reading at one time what these notes were but now can not recall that info. Anyone here have this so I can pass it on? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Loco Whistle help List I was contacted by someone who viewed and listened to my K4 Whistle wav file that I have on my K4 website. He is a Live Steam modeler and wishes to duplcate this Whistle and sound on his 1/8" Scale K4. He asked me what the 3 notes the PRR used were. I do remember reading at one time what these notes were but now can not recall that info. Anyone here have this so I can pass it on? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:19:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam Sorry, I didn't state the question clearly. I did not mean did any streamlined steam (K-4s)run non-stop St. Louis to Pittsburgh. What I meant was did any of these locomotives regularly run on the section of the Panhandle that begins/ends in Pittsburgh, i.e, say Columbus to Pittsburgh or Pittsburgh to Columbus. Also, as another response mentioned, the locomotives didn't magically appear in St. Louis. But whether they got there by running over Panhandle rails is another question. They may have run originally to Chicago or some other point on Ft Wayne rails and ended up in St. Louis by a circuitous route. The idea of a circuitous route is not necessarily bizarre. I have been told by a man who used to be a tower operator here in Burgettstown that J class engines ran primarily westbound through town, and were rarely seen on eastbound trains. Evidently, they somehow returned east by a route that took them through Crestline. Anyone else ever heard of this? Ron --- "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Ron, > > I have no specific data on that, but I don't think > ANY steam ever ran that > far. How far is Pittsburgh to St. Louis - 600 miles > +/-? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Ronald Di Orio wrote: > > > No responses received on this query, so I thought > I'd > > try again. Does anyone know if any of the > streamlined > > K-4s assigned to St. Louis trains ever ran all the > way > > east to Pittsburgh, or vice versa, running from > > Pittsburgh to St Louis? Thank you. Ron > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam Sorry, I didn't state the question clearly. I did not mean did any streamlined steam (K-4s)run non-stop St. Louis to Pittsburgh. What I meant was did any of these locomotives regularly run on the section of the Panhandle that begins/ends in Pittsburgh, i.e, say Columbus to Pittsburgh or Pittsburgh to Columbus. Also, as another response mentioned, the locomotives didn't magically appear in St. Louis. But whether they got there by running over Panhandle rails is another question. They may have run originally to Chicago or some other point on Ft Wayne rails and ended up in St. Louis by a circuitous route. The idea of a circuitous route is not necessarily bizarre. I have been told by a man who used to be a tower operator here in Burgettstown that J class engines ran primarily westbound through town, and were rarely seen on eastbound trains. Evidently, they somehow returned east by a route that took them through Crestline. Anyone else ever heard of this? Ron --- "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Ron, > > I have no specific data on that, but I don't think > ANY steam ever ran that > far. How far is Pittsburgh to St. Louis - 600 miles > +/-? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Diner Article Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:49:05 -0500 There has been some comments on the Keystone lately, so I'll add my two cents. The diner article in the Spring Keystone is my idea of an excellent MODELING article. This article will be a great reference to anybody modeling these diners. There are plenty of photos and drawings. I'm really glad photos of the ends and trucks are included. To me, a good modeling article is a reference about the prototype. This information is timeless. I can learn actual modeling techniques elsewhere, and they change over time. 10 years from now someone modeling diners will ask on this list "which issue of the Keystone was it that that great diner article was in". The only thing that I would have liked to see included is a drawing of the underframe showing the layout of the brake system. But the isometrics do a good job of showing a lot of the major underframe parts. My hat's off to Chuck for an excellent article. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Diner Article Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:59:56 -0400 I second Andy's sentiments. This article and the previous mail car issue are phenomenal passenger car references. Put them together and they would make a great book, too. Just fill in with some regular passenger cars and the MP 54's. Kudos to Chuck Blairdon HIP HIP .............. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" To: "Prr-talk" Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:49 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone Diner Article > There has been some comments on the Keystone lately, so I'll add my two > cents. > > The diner article in the Spring Keystone is my idea of an excellent MODELING > article. This article will be a great reference to anybody modeling these > diners. There are plenty of photos and drawings. I'm really glad photos of > the ends and trucks are included. > > To me, a good modeling article is a reference about the prototype. This > information is timeless. I can learn actual modeling techniques elsewhere, > and they change over time. 10 years from now someone modeling diners will > ask on this list "which issue of the Keystone was it that that great diner > article was in". > > The only thing that I would have liked to see included is a drawing of the > underframe showing the layout of the brake system. But the isometrics do a > good job of showing a lot of the major underframe parts. > > My hat's off to Chuck for an excellent article. > > Andy Cich > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:01:29 -0700 Andy, While this was not set by the PRR, the record for the longest continous run with a steam locomotive was set on the Santa Fe, which ran their 4-8-4's through from Argerntine yard (in Kansas) to the West Coast (L.A), about 1700 miles with NO locomotive changes enroute. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:32:39 -0400 "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Ron, > > I have no specific data on that, but I don't think ANY > steam ever ran that > far. How far is Pittsburgh to St. Louis - 600 miles +/-? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:39:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Diner Article --part1_7a.3d0efee4.2bc4c5c6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that the diner article is fantastic. Chuck Blardone is a font of passenger car data that has heretofore only been hinted at... I have a D78 question: my ancient Walther's D78 diner model has air conditioning ductwork over the dining room windows. Is there any prototype for this or was it an erroneous assumption on the part of the model builder? Thanks, Chris Baker #1918 --part1_7a.3d0efee4.2bc4c5c6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that the diner article is fantastic.  Chu= ck Blardone is a font of passenger car data that has heretofore only been hi= nted at...

I have a D78 question:  my ancient Walther's D78 diner model has air co= nditioning ductwork over the dining room windows.  Is there any prototy= pe for this or was it an erroneous assumption on the part of the model build= er?

Thanks,
Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_7a.3d0efee4.2bc4c5c6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SM" Subject: [PRR] old RMC article, 1876 Philly centennial and Strafford Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:03:14 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2FE1A.A7201E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all..... >From time to time i find and buy old train and=20 modeling magazines to fill in my collection. Recently i got a copy of the December 1978 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. Big deal you might say.....so what..... well read on......There was'nt much Pennsy stuff in this issue but........ On page 98 there is a small article written by Eric LaNal. It tells of a rather large scale model of the 1876 Philadelphia Centennial Exhibition. It is or perhaps was 20x30 in size. He mentions that it once was 31 feet in diameter. It was then located in the basement at the Memorial Hall in Fairmount = Park in West Philly.=20 He says it was still there during the 1970's. Heres the kicker.....Its built to 1:192 scale (somewhere between "N" and "Z" scale) and it was....believe it or not built in 1889! Thats right its not a typo......1889! Mr LaNal had seen it when he was younger=20 (1920's-1930's) and was'nt even sure it was still there in 1978 until he saw it again. It even has....get this....a Marble slab for the bench work! I wonder if its still there. I also mention all of this as two stations from the 1876 exibition were moved by the Pennsy. One is the Strafford station which recently (ok a year or so ago) had a fire. And the other was the PRSL station at Cape May, New Jersey. The original train sheds at old Broad st station were based on some of the exibit hall designs. I wonder if its still there and what the status of the Strafford station is and if thats the same station at Cape May today. For you folks who might have this issue..... Look it up....you'll be surprized. Til Later Hank Mummert ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2FE1A.A7201E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all.....
 
From time to time i find and buy old = train and=20
modeling magazines to fill in my=20 collection.
Recently i got a copy of the December=20 1978
issue of Railroad Model = Craftsman.
 
Big deal you might say.....so=20 what.....
well read on......There was'nt much=20 Pennsy
stuff in this issue = but........
 
On page 98 there is a small = article
written by Eric LaNal. It tells of a = rather=20 large
scale model of the 1876 Philadelphia=20 Centennial
Exhibition. It is or perhaps was 20x30 = in=20 size.
He mentions that it once was 31 feet in = diameter.
It was then located in the basement =  at the=20 Memorial Hall in Fairmount Park in = West Philly.=20
He says it was still there during the=20 1970's.
 
Heres the kicker.....Its built to 1:192 = scale
(somewhere between "N" and "Z" = scale)
and it was....believe it or not built = in=20 1889!
Thats right its not a = typo......1889!
Mr LaNal had seen it when he was = younger=20
(1920's-1930's) and was'nt even sure it = was
still there in 1978 until he saw it=20 again.
It even has....get this....a Marble = slab=20 for
the bench work!
I wonder if its still = there.
 
I also mention all of this as two = stations from=20 the
1876 exibition were moved by the=20 Pennsy.
One is the Strafford station which=20 recently
(ok a year or so ago) had a fire. And = the=20 other
was the PRSL station at Cape May, New=20 Jersey.
The original train sheds at old Broad = st=20 station
were based on some of the exibit hall=20 designs.
 
I wonder if its still there and what = the status=20 of
the Strafford station is and if thats = the=20 same
station at Cape May today.
 
For you folks who might have this=20 issue.....
Look it up....you'll be = surprized.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;         =20 Til Later
          &nbs= p;            = ;         =20 Hank Mummert
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2FE1A.A7201E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Vince Miller Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:04:47 -0400 Vince, would you contact me at cabincar01@earthlink.net Seems we grew up in the same area. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:45:03 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiquing the Keystone --------------61BE3EA1D36586AFE5009A8D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Thanks Rick And the rest of you who wrote to give me the surprisingly mild scolding I got over the past two days . After the first few I knew I hurt some feelings , and started to duck down as I passed a window . Thanks for being gentleman about it . I must tell you all I learned a lot from your comments , so thank for that . Last night I took the magazine to bed , and so help me I found some pretty good reading . I'll look up that Hopper Car one you wrote Rick and give it another shot too . About Pittsburgh , what do you want to know ? Used to be a lot of railroading around here , still is . I'm not a big fan of that ugly -ass Black Horse RR but they are the main player here . Where I live is a little place called Gibsonia , the B&O 'oops CSX is about an eight of a mile down the street , I listen to the air horns all the time when they make the crossing . The CSX bought the old P&LE a while back so this line doesn't get as much traffic as it once did . It will probably be a yuppy bike trail before we know it . Also near by is the Pittsburgh Model Rail Road Museum . Great place , they have an on going project modeling a combination , P&LE, B&O ,WESTERN MARYLAND from Pittsburgh to Cumberland MD. Hopfully I won't have to wear some kind of "Dumbo" ribbon if I ever come to a Society event . Vince Miller RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/7/03 1:11:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > >> Now for my complaint , Some of the Magazines articles are very >> interesting , some not so . This latest is almost entirely about >> Dining >> Cars , another was mostly about Hopper Cars . I am sure some >> people >> put lots of time , and work into the projects , and did a thorough >> Job , >> so why is there a picture of a "K4" on the cover ? I suppose all >> those >> lists are important , same with the Hopper Car article , all I got >> from >> it was all Hopper Cars look alike , except for miner details . Seems >> to >> me there must still be lots of former Pennys Rail-road Workers out >> there >> who have great stories to tell , so why not more of that kind of >> stuff ? >> One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches >> . >> Vince Miller > > Hi Vince, > > You ask good and valid questions. I probably shouldn't put in my 2 > cents worth (I'm the criminal that wrote the extremely long article on > covered hopper car lettering in 2000), but let me offer some comments > on Keystone article content: > > 1. The magazine is written by the members. Every article is > researched, written, and usually has pictures provided by the author. > Thus, what you will see is a series of pieces on things that one > person thought was worthwhile to present. > > 2. The magazine is edited and moderated by a volunteer named Chuck > Blardone. As editor, Chuck has the almost thankless job of editing, > supplementing with photos, formatting for publication, and whatever > else it takes to get the magazine to the printers. Often, as you've > noted, he will use a cover (and often back cover) that doesn't > dovetail with the contents. It may happen that the photos provided by > the authors just didn't include a good vertical suitable as the front > cover. > > In addition, he brings along newbie authors like me -- and almost > never loses his temper. This gentlemen does this job as far as I can > see because he's qualified to do it and loves turning out a first-rate > product for the Society. Of course, Chuck is just one of the > hardworking volunteers that makes the PRRT&HS an outstanding > organization. > > 3. The Keystone in particular and any magazine in general deals with > many subjects in its lifetime. Over the years, many articles on > engines, rolling stock, key sites, not-so-key branch lines, buildings, > and the people of the Pennsy have already appeared. You're coming in > in the middle of the process -- with many subjects covered to some > degree, and for that matter with some of our original experts/authors > gone to their reward. I'd suggest that no one is likely to be > enthralled with each article, but each article has its enthusiasts -- > and the body of knowledge on the Pennsy is increased. Also, don't be > surprised to go back to old issues and find out that which didn't > thrill you then is a winner now. > > 4. Bottom line -- the magazine, like the Society, is very much what > we elect to make of it. I'm told by my friends that the Keystone is a > best-of-kind -- for UP or C&O modelers to say it's a good magazine is > praise indeed. I'm glad your'e concerned with content and appeal -- > that bodes well for the future. As new folks join the Society, I > think they need to take their place as students of the Pennsy, > informed critics of the Keystone's articles, and ultimately writers of > articles themselves. The ultimate tragedy for the Keystone would be > if its readers don't care about its content -- fortunately, I don't > see that happening any time soon. > > 5. You mention you're interested in some branch lines. I'd love to > know more about those around Pittsburgh, where you live. You can > shake a lot of info loose here on PRR-Talk. Ask questions about your > Pennsy neighborhood, and then follow up any leads into books, > magazines, the Internet sites, and to nearby libraries. Once your > research is gathered and starts to make sense, you might decide to > write the article, or through Chuck Blardone seek an author who could > co-write with you. > > I think Chuck would agree with me that it's good to stay dissatisfied > with the Keystone -- that way, we can look forward to improving it. > Hope to meet you at an annual meeting, this year or maybe next year > upriver in Cincinnati... > > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --------------61BE3EA1D36586AFE5009A8D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      OK Thanks Rick
            And the rest of you who wrote to give me the surprisingly mild scolding  I got over the past two days . After the first few I knew I hurt some feelings , and started to duck down as I passed a window .  Thanks for being gentleman about it . I must tell you all I learned a lot from your comments , so thank for that .
            Last night I took the magazine to bed , and so help me I found some pretty good reading .  I'll look up that Hopper Car one you wrote Rick and give it another shot  too .
             About Pittsburgh , what do you want to know ? Used to be a lot of railroading around here , still is . I'm not a big  fan of that  ugly -ass Black Horse RR but they are the main player here .  Where I live is a little place called Gibsonia , the B&O 'oops CSX is   about an eight of a mile down the street , I listen to the air horns all the time when they make the crossing . The CSX bought the old P&LE a while back so this line doesn't get as much traffic as it once did . It will probably be a yuppy bike trail before we know it .  Also near by is the Pittsburgh Model Rail Road Museum . Great place , they have an on going  project modeling a combination  , P&LE, B&O ,WESTERN MARYLAND  from Pittsburgh to Cumberland MD.  Hopfully I won't have to wear some kind of "Dumbo"  ribbon if I ever come to a Society event .
              Vince Miller
 

RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/03 1:11:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:
 
 
Now for my  complaint , Some of the Magazines articles are very
interesting , some not so . This latest is almost entirely about Dining
Cars , another  was mostly about Hopper Cars .  I am sure some people
put lots of time , and work into the projects , and did a thorough Job ,
so why is there a picture of a "K4" on the cover ? I suppose all those
lists are important , same with the Hopper Car article , all I got from
it was all Hopper Cars look alike , except for miner details . Seems to
me there must still be lots of former Pennys Rail-road Workers out there
who have great stories to tell , so why not more of that kind of stuff ?
One thing I'd like to see is more articles about Individual Branches .
       Vince Miller
Hi Vince,

You ask good and valid questions.  I probably shouldn't put in my 2 cents worth (I'm the criminal that wrote the extremely long article on covered hopper car lettering in 2000), but let me offer some comments on Keystone article content:

1.  The magazine is written by the members.  Every article is researched, written, and usually has pictures provided by the author.  Thus, what you will see is a series of pieces on things that one person thought was worthwhile to present.

2.  The magazine is edited and moderated by a volunteer named Chuck Blardone.   As editor, Chuck has the almost thankless job of editing, supplementing with photos, formatting for publication, and whatever else it takes to get the magazine to the printers.  Often, as you've noted, he will use a cover (and often back cover) that doesn't dovetail with the contents.  It may happen that the photos provided by the authors just didn't include a good vertical suitable as the front cover.

In addition, he brings along newbie authors like me -- and almost never loses his temper.  This gentlemen does this job as far as I can see because he's qualified to do it and loves turning out a first-rate product for the Society.  Of course, Chuck is just one of the hardworking volunteers that makes the PRRT&HS an outstanding organization.

3.  The Keystone in particular and any magazine in general deals with many subjects in its lifetime.  Over the years, many articles on engines, rolling stock, key sites, not-so-key branch lines, buildings, and the people of the Pennsy have already appeared.  You're coming in in the middle of the process -- with many subjects covered to some degree, and for that matter with some of our original experts/authors gone to their reward.  I'd suggest that no one is likely to be enthralled with each article, but each article has its enthusiasts -- and the body of knowledge on the Pennsy is increased.  Also, don't be surprised to go back to old issues and find out that which didn't thrill you then is a winner now.

4.  Bottom line -- the magazine, like the Society, is very much what we elect to make of it.  I'm told by my friends that the Keystone is a best-of-kind -- for UP or C&O modelers to say it's a good magazine is praise indeed.  I'm glad your'e concerned with content and appeal -- that bodes well for the future.  As new folks join the Society, I think they need to take their place as students of the Pennsy, informed critics of the Keystone's articles, and ultimately writers of articles themselves.  The ultimate tragedy for the Keystone would be if its readers don't care about its content -- fortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon.

5.  You mention you're interested in some branch lines.  I'd love to know more about those around Pittsburgh, where you live.  You can shake a lot of info loose here on PRR-Talk.  Ask questions about your Pennsy neighborhood, and then follow up any leads into books, magazines, the Internet sites, and to nearby libraries.  Once your research is gathered and starts to make sense, you might decide to write the article, or through Chuck Blardone seek an author who could co-write with you.

I think Chuck would agree with me that it's good to stay dissatisfied with the Keystone -- that way, we can look forward to improving it.  Hope to meet you at an annual meeting, this year or maybe next year upriver in Cincinnati...
 

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West

--------------61BE3EA1D36586AFE5009A8D-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] old RMC article, 1876 Philly centennial and Strafford Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:55:09 -0400 I saw the display in the late 80's early 90's. It was fascinating. I believe that area of the building is now closed to the public. I have not been back to Fairmount Park since that time. DF Cramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Conductor-Historian www.geocities.com/armconband >Subject: [PRR] old RMC article, 1876 Philly centennial and Strafford >station. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:59:25 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam While I'm no expert, I recall that the N&W Js went Norfolk to Cinci to Norfolk routinely, and rapidly... Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva where nothing moved rapidly... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:59:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Streamlined Steam While I'm no expert, I recall that the N&W Js went Norfolk to Cinci to Norfolk routinely, and rapidly... Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva where nothing moved rapidly... ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:35:23 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: Loco Whistle help --=====================_43659303==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Gary, It would be a fairly simple task for many technical PC users to take your K4 file and run the data through an FFT ( Fast Fourier Transform) routine contained in any Math or Analysis SW like Mathworks and find the frequency components. I'm away from any access to such for a while but I'd guess others have such access. Tom Hayden >Subject: Loco Whistle help >From: "Gary Mittner" >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:11:03 -0400 (EDT) > >List > > I was contacted by someone who viewed and listened to my K4 Whistle >wav file that I have on my K4 website. He is a Live Steam modeler and >wishes to duplcate this Whistle and sound on his 1/8" Scale K4. He asked >me what the 3 notes the PRR used were. I do remember reading at one >time what these notes were but now can not recall that info. Anyone here >have this so I can pass it on? Thanks, Gary --=====================_43659303==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Gary,


It would be a fairly simple task for many technical PC users to take your K4 file and run the data through an FFT ( Fast Fourier Transform) routine contained in any Math or Analysis SW like Mathworks and find the frequency components.

I'm away from any access to such for a while but I'd guess others have such access.

Tom Hayden




Subject: Loco Whistle help
From: "Gary Mittner" <mittner@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:11:03 -0400 (EDT)

List

    I was contacted by someone who viewed and  listened to my K4 Whistle
wav file that I have on my K4 website. He is a Live Steam modeler and
wishes to duplcate this Whistle and sound on his 1/8" Scale K4. He asked
me what the 3 notes the PRR used  were. I do remember reading at one
time what these notes were but now can not recall that info. Anyone here
have this so I can pass it on? Thanks, Gary
--=====================_43659303==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:35:49 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: [PRR] Bridge on Keystone 26 4 Hi, I came across an ebay item for some back issues of the Keystone: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3126325919&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 One of the issues, i think it is the Winter 1993(vol 26 no 4) issue (the right most Keystone in the photo), shows a large viaduct type bridge in the background. Can someone tell me what and where that bridge is? Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:50:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rails Northeast magazine From: Jerry Britton I know I had this info somewhere, but seem to have misplaced it. Rails Northeast started with issue #19 (#'s 1-18 were called PC Railroader). What was the final issue number? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:00:03 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bridge on Keystone 26 4 That's the Westinghouse Bridge in Pittsburgh. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Keith B Thompson wrote: > Hi, > > I came across an ebay item for some back issues of the Keystone: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3126325919&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 > > One of the issues, i think it is the Winter 1993(vol 26 no 4) issue > (the right most Keystone in the photo), shows a large viaduct type > bridge in the background. Can someone tell me what and where that > bridge is? > > Thanks, > kbt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bridge on Keystone 26 4 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:05:04 -0400 Keith, It is the Westinghouse bridge east of Pittsburgh. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Bridge on Keystone 26 4 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:08:37 +0000 Looks like a painting of the Westinghouse bridge in Pittsburgh to me. > > Hi, > > I came across an ebay item for some back issues of the Keystone: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3126325919&ssPageName=ADME:B: > SS:US:1 > > One of the issues, i think it is the Winter 1993(vol 26 no 4) issue > (the right most Keystone in the photo), shows a large viaduct type > bridge in the background. Can someone tell me what and where that > bridge is? > > Thanks, > kbt > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Sunnyside blueprints Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:01:07 +0000 http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/kds/main/new11.htm This link will take you to a Microsoft train simulator web page where someone has uploaded Sunnyside blueprints of the track from the East river through the yard and the signals. just click on the view button and them you can click on the two JPEG files to open them. They are big! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:04:44 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Additions To My Web Site --=====================_67078273==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed After a long hiatus I have made a new addition to the web site. Locomotive Tonnage Ratings for individual regions from 1964/65. The first one I have finished is for the Buckeye Region. What I would like is some feedback (off-line) on what you think of it. I have scanned the individual pages into .pdf (Acrobat version 4.0) for accurate information. The other regions I will be covering are Lake, Southwestern, Fort Wayne, Chicago, Northern and Harrisburg. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/LOCOMOTIVE%20TONNAGE%20RATINGS%20-%20BUCKEYE.htm Thanks, Dayna & Randy Williamson --=====================_67078273==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" After a long hiatus I have made a new addition to the web site.  Locomotive Tonnage Ratings for individual regions from 1964/65.  The first one I have finished is for the Buckeye Region.  What I would like is some feedback (off-line) on what you think of it.  I have scanned the individual pages into .pdf (Acrobat version 4.0) for accurate information.  The other regions I will be covering are Lake, Southwestern, Fort Wayne, Chicago, Northern and Harrisburg.
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/LOCOMOTIVE%20TONNAGE%20RATINGS%20-%20BUCKEYE.htm

Thanks,
Dayna & Randy Williamson --=====================_67078273==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: [PRR] Micromodels Pennsylvania RR & CPR Locos Item # 2169712071 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:32:55 +0100 List Re: Micromodels Pennsylvania RR & CPR Locos Item # 2169712071 Is the above of interest to the collectors on this list. I have no connection with the sale. Regards, James. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:05:16 -0400 Jerry, Are you going to convince "Broadway Limited" to lend you a GG1 for the meeting like they did last year with the NYC J. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Numbering Schemes. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:12:33 -0400 List, Does anybody know when the PRR started using the tall yellow numbers on their diesel locomotives? I have a Front Range GP-9 that has the taller yellow numbers and I think it is too new for my 1957 cut-off date. I know the Pennsy owned a slew of GP-9's and I'm thinkng of possibly changing the number. How aboust removal of it from a FR loco...alcohol, solvaset? Is it paint or a decal? Doug (OH) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:44:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Annual Meeting From: Jerry Britton On 4/10/03 3:05 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Are you going to convince "Broadway Limited" to lend you a GG1 for the > meeting like they did last year with the NYC J. > I asked last week, haven't heard back yet. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Numbering Schemes. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:04:23 -0400 The 2500 U-25B was the first diesel to get them. 4400 (an electric) about 18 months previous started it off if you really want to get technical. 4400 of course had the Pennsylvania spelled out. 2500 and 2501 were painted at GE with a P.R.R. on the flanks and then had it painted over and were delivered with keystones only. I was the first to use the large numbers on a repaint (complete) of an older unit when I painted 8942 in Canton, Ohio in February 1964, followed by 8941 (also an FS-20m) and then 8880 and AS-6 S-3 in June 1964. Some shops started adding the numbers only around that time but were not repainting the entire unit. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Doug Day Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 3:13 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Numbering Schemes. List, Does anybody know when the PRR started using the tall yellow numbers on their diesel locomotives? I have a Front Range GP-9 that has the taller yellow numbers and I think it is too new for my 1957 cut-off date. I know the Pennsy owned a slew of GP-9's and I'm thinkng of possibly changing the number. How aboust removal of it from a FR loco...alcohol, solvaset? Is it paint or a decal? Doug (OH) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] X23's in HO... Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:06:21 -0400 Just got a Westerfield flyer in the mail in slated for May release (hmm isn't that when the PRRTHS convention is :) It mentioned that one of the later versions (8 in all) should be ready in time for the meeting. According to the flyer they'll be $35.00 each... Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:56:58 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR Builders Photos Hi All, I will be attending the PRR convention in just under a month. I am interested in trading first generation PRR Builders photos while I am there. I will be equipped with my new laptop, and at least 1 scanner capable of scanning HIGH quality images, including up to 8 x 10 negatives. I will also be able to burn CDs. Here is my collection: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRRphotos.xls Please reply with what you have. I can bring a high quality photo printer upon special request, if you prefer prints. I can also bring a 35 mm slide and negative scanner as well. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:03:50 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] X23's in HO... Rob sez: >Just got a Westerfield flyer in the mail in slated for May release (hmm >isn't that >when the PRRTHS convention is :) It mentioned that one of the later >versions >(8 in all) should be ready in time for the meeting. According to the flyer >they'll >be $35.00 each... I got the flyer a couple of days agop as well...unfortunately he says "late" May, and the meeting is the first week in May, so I think we'll be seeing the sample, but we won't be able to buy the kits. There was a picture of the X23 in the flyer, and although hard to see, it sure did look like an X23 . The preproduction model is also shown at the Westerfield web site http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/ under #2, Whats new. The good news is that I only need 5 to 6 of these cars for my 1944 fleet.... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:14:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N5c's in N Scale From: Jerry Britton The following is a public service announcement... Though it was no secret that these were coming, Bowser has now "officially" announced that the N5c's in N scale will ship in June. (The web site says "Summer", but Lee English told me June.) There will be three road numbers in each painted scheme. Cars will be ready to run. As with the N5's, will NOT feature MicroTrains couplers. Retail is $24.95. (Your retailer may be discounting.) Here are the part numbers: #37500 Undecorated PRR Original Lettering #37501 Eastern Region #37502 Western Region #37503 Central Region PRR Shadow Keystone #37504 Pittsburgh Region #37505 Eastern Region #37506 Philadelphia Region #37507 Buckeye Region PRR Plain Keystone #37508 Focal Orange Body PRR Plain Keystone #37509 Red Body PRR Original Lettering #37512 "Buy War Bonds" Conrail #37510 Conrail Penn Central #37511 Penn Central ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:27:47 -0400 Subject: Divisional Structure Re: [PRR] Bowser N5c's in N Scale From: Jerry Britton That a quick recap of PRR divisional structure was in order... On 4/11/03 9:14 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > PRR Original Lettering > #37501 Eastern Region > #37502 Western Region > #37503 Central Region The above paint schemes are good from early on through 1954, though they could last longer until a repaint was done. There were three PRR "regions", each made up of numerous divisions. There were 19 divisions in 1954, for instance. > > PRR Shadow Keystone > #37504 Pittsburgh Region > #37505 Eastern Region > #37506 Philadelphia Region > #37507 Buckeye Region > Though the Shadow Keystone appeared before 1956, the above "regions" depict the 1956 reorganization. So you wouldn't want these cars if you were modeling before 1956. The exception is the "Eastern Region", which didn't exist as of the 1956 reorg. I'm not sure if this car is supposed to depict a 1954-55 repaint in Shadow Keystone or not. Notably missing from the SK schemes is the Northern Region, which I would think would be fairly popular. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Name Trains Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:01:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C30019.A6355000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Circa 1944, Canton District (Pits to Cleve and Pitts to = Chicago)....anybody have an idea of the consist of those trains and = their names??? I am a new guy to model RRng and I enjoy ALL the info offered in the = Keystones. It is nice to see a magazine that "caters" to the burgeoning = author, the little guy.......it is one quality magazine! Earl Myers PRR, Canton District, 1944 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C30019.A6355000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gents;
 Circa 1944, Canton District (Pits = to Cleve=20 and Pitts to Chicago)....anybody have an idea of the consist of those = trains and=20 their names???
 
 I am a new guy to model RRng and = I enjoy ALL=20 the info offered in the Keystones. It is nice to see a magazine that = "caters" to=20 the burgeoning author, the little guy.......it is one quality=20 magazine!
Earl Myers
PRR, Canton District,=20 1944
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C30019.A6355000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:18:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Name Trains From: Jerry Britton On 4/11/03 11:01 AM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > Circa 1944, Canton District (Pits to Cleve and Pitts to Chicago)....anybody > have an idea of the consist of those trains and their names??? > Earl: The best source, which is very hard to find, is the PRR's own "Makeup of Trains" books which were published irregularly to the crews who assemble the trains in the yards. I have a New York Division Makeup of Trains book for 1954. It's amazing how much info you can glean from one of these. Your best bet will to keep your eyes peeled for one for the Chicago Terminal Division. Lacking that, what is more readily available are public timetables. While you typically think of these as just showing the schedule, that's not the case. There will be some detail for each train, such as "coaches, reclining seats", "parlor", "sleeper", "diner", etc. This will at least give you an idea of the types of cars that were/weren't assigned to the train. Next, and really hard to find, are completed "CT220" forms. This is a record of a particular train on a particular day, complete with car numbers and names. Two of these from 1943 are posted on "Keystone Crossings" in the "Passenger Operations" section. Another source are unofficial sightings reports. These will show up in a variety of places. Wayner published a book of them at one point. Kalmbach's book on the Pennsy's "Blue Ribbon Fleet" provides quite a few. I have started an online database of consists, but it's not ready for prime time. I backburnered that project in favor of another -- also passenger related -- that will be unveiled shortly...perhaps next week. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:26:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rails Northeast -- Passenger Consists From: Jerry Britton Rails Northeast did a series of installments on Pennsy's "Inter-Region Passenger Consists" from 1953. I only have RNE through 1980 and have four installments of the above. Anyone know if there were any additional installments of this series after 1980? RNE is next in line for me to pursue in filling out my collection. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:47:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Early Altoona PRR Train Dispatchers Office --part1_6.e7def29.2bc83d92_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. Somewhere last year I saw a picture of the old PRR Altoona Train dispatchers office,that at one time was located in the former Logan House, being moved on flat cars to just east of the old 24 St. bridge,almost across from SLOPE. I can not find that picture and would like to know what book or magizine I may have seen it in. The picture was looking east,I think at ground level from about the 24 St overhead bridge or SLOPE, showing the 2 story structure being moved west at a location that seemed to be just west of ALTO. Can anyone help with the source for this picture PLEASE? Thank you to all in advance. Pat McKinney Altoona,Pa --part1_6.e7def29.2bc83d92_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
      Somewhere last year I saw a picture of the ol= d PRR Altoona Train dispatchers office,that at one time was located in the f= ormer Logan House, being moved on flat cars to just east of the old 24 St. b= ridge,almost across from SLOPE. I can not find that picture and would like t= o know what book or magizine I may have seen it in.
  The picture was looking east,I think at ground level from about the 2= 4 St overhead bridge or SLOPE, showing the 2 story structure being moved wes= t at a location that seemed to be just west of ALTO.
  Can anyone help with the source for this picture PLEASE? Thank you to= all in advance.

Pat McKinney
Altoona,Pa --part1_6.e7def29.2bc83d92_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:04:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Early Altoona PRR Train Dispatchers Office Hello Pat, The photo I have of that building was shot from the 24th Street Bridge looking east. At the bottom of the photo it reads "about 1930". I think it may be earlier than that date. I can't find any info on this building anywhere. And it's not on any PRR maps I've ever seen, but it was there. What year was the Logan House torn down? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:04:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Early Altoona PRR Train Dispatchers Office Hello Pat, The photo I have of that building was shot from the 24th Street Bridge looking east. At the bottom of the photo it reads "about 1930". I think it may be earlier than that date. I can't find any info on this building anywhere. And it's not on any PRR maps I've ever seen, but it was there. What year was the Logan House torn down? Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] TV Progrm Note Lists, Not sure what this will be about or how long the segment will be but this coming Sunday, the 13th, on CBS Sunday Morning with Charles Osgood, there will be something on the PRR. I was contacted via email by a CBS Producer who requested high quality scans of some photos that appear on my websites. With little time to come thru with his request, I had him contact Chuck Blardone to see if he can supply what the producer is looking for. I believe Chuck has come thru with flying colors. All I know is what the producer told me. A segment was being put together to commemorate the Charter signing of the Pennsylvana Railroad. I myself won't be able to see the program as I have a train show to go to. Hopeflly I can figure out how to hook up this old vcr and catch it when I get home.... Speaking of a Train Show. I may as well alert anyone in the Western Pa / Pittsburgh area, that the Beaver County Model Railroad Club is holding their Spring Train Sale/Show Sunday April 13th at The Center Stage in Monaca from 10am-3pm. You can get more info at http://www.bcmrr.com for directions etc. It is dubbed "The Biggest Little Train Show". About 90 tables or so worth of all scales. You never know what you wil find. Last year I found an A-B-B-A set of Overland Sharks (the good ones) for just $500.00! So if you don't have anything to do, stop on in.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] TV Progrm Note Lists, Not sure what this will be about or how long the segment will be but this coming Sunday, the 13th, on CBS Sunday Morning with Charles Osgood, there will be something on the PRR. I was contacted via email by a CBS Producer who requested high quality scans of some photos that appear on my websites. With little time to come thru with his request, I had him contact Chuck Blardone to see if he can supply what the producer is looking for. I believe Chuck has come thru with flying colors. All I know is what the producer told me. A segment was being put together to commemorate the Charter signing of the Pennsylvana Railroad. I myself won't be able to see the program as I have a train show to go to. Hopeflly I can figure out how to hook up this old vcr and catch it when I get home.... Speaking of a Train Show. I may as well alert anyone in the Western Pa / Pittsburgh area, that the Beaver County Model Railroad Club is holding their Spring Train Sale/Show Sunday April 13th at The Center Stage in Monaca from 10am-3pm. You can get more info at http://www.bcmrr.com for directions etc. It is dubbed "The Biggest Little Train Show". About 90 tables or so worth of all scales. You never know what you wil find. Last year I found an A-B-B-A set of Overland Sharks (the good ones) for just $500.00! So if you don't have anything to do, stop on in.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:53:36 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRDelMarVa] Re:X23 I have no idea other than it was "donated" according to the Delmarva Chapter NRHS newsletter. When -- if -- I hear, I will post info. I posted some photos at Yahooooooooo, under PRR-Delmarva, photos, X-23 album but it ain't yodeling today! http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRDelMarVa/lst Jim McDaniel, from rainy, wet Delmarva (no washouts, yet...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Beaver County RR show and B6s Loco Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:10:34 -0400 Friends: Just got back from the Beaver Co. (Pennsylvania) train show. I had a great time and met some really nice people. The show was excellent and the dealers covered just about every interest, twice. Unfortunately, I didn't find any used X29 cars lettered for PRR with the circle keystone, my main reason for going. However, I did find a pair of Pennsy HO trucks for use on a MP54 trailer and a book on Lionel trains that looks interesting. As the highlight of my day, I had a first hand, close up look at Gary Mitner's B6s in 1:29 scale. This scratchbuilt loco is fabulous! The pictures on the web are good, but can't hold a candle to up front viewing. The detail is considerable and impeccably done. I can't wait until he has the mechanism back from the machine shop so I can watch it run. Move over Mel Thornbourgh, Gary Mitner is here! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Beaver County RR show > Lew, > > Sunday April 13, 10am-3pm at Center Stage. See you there....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:30:09 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Tower, shelter interiors Hello, everyone, I'm interested in knowing what colors were standard for the interior of PRR wooden towers on the Middle Div. and on the interiors of wooden passenger shelters (typically across the tracks from the station). The time that interests me is 1920. TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:07:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" At the Northern Central Chapter meeting today I was speaking with an acquaintance of several years who is also a subscriber to the PRR-talk list. His name isn't important, but his situation is similar to many. He has been on the list for years, just lurking in a corner. There are over 600 people on the list, and only 50 or so who speak up "regularly". This is okay, but I bet a lot of those other folks are intimidated and afraid to speak up. Don't be!!! If you have a valid PRR question, ask it!!! I've had a pool of questions that have gone unanswered for years. That happens! But I typically re-ask them and re-word them every six months or so. That either generates a new response or better understanding of my question and pieces slowly fall into place. (Such was the case with the recent Cresson roundhouse thread.) So, come out of the shadows and speak up! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Beaver County RR show and B6sb Loco Lew, List, Thanks for stopping by at the Show. Spoke to Lew and Ron, missed Sam, and any other "lurkers" that may have attended. Thanks for the kind mention of the B6sb. Hopefully in the near future I can continue work on it. It has been sitting in Primer for several months now waiting for parts to come in. It is my hopes that when finished, and with a nice weather beaten years of service kinda paint job, it will come more lifelike. Mel Thornburgh, ah yes, I remember reading those back issues of MR of the 40's and 50's. I once attempted a Brass K4 like he did in that multi issue article. I quit after making a mess of the Boiler. I prefer Styrene these days. Thanks again, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:57:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Monday, April 14, 2003, at 09:39 PM, Vince Miller wrote: > I'm still trying to tell the difference between E and F EMD units . > That will give a lot of you a big laugh but I'll bet someone else is > just > like me . So send in your cards and letters all you "Lurkers" out > there . > There are no dumb questions , only a few dopes who think they are > smarter > than everyone else, the rest are Gentleman one and all Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger cars. The E's were used in passenger service and the F's in freight service. As such, the F units were painted Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) with one narrow stripe. The E units were originally DGLE, with five narrow stripes, but as of 1952 were painted in Tuscan Red, still with five narrow stripes. In 1954 the five stripes was replaced by one broad stripe. Now, suppose you model in HO and have the Athearn F7 units in Tuscan Red? They're wrong! Athearn's been marketing these units for decades with an incorrect paint scheme! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Switcher lettering color Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:09:16 -0400 Andy, To finish answering your question, I dug out the earlier painting diagrams for the PRR switchers. As noted below, the two 1948 diagrams were preceded by tracing D-438379 for classes ES-10, ES-6 and ES-6(5911). It was issued 8-27-47 and showed the body to be Dark Green Locomotive Paint with PRR standard Buff lettering. All outside surfaces below cab and engine hood to be black. Cab interior was to be medium blue gray, brake stand and control equipment in cab to be black, cab floor to be Indian red, piping to be the usual red, yellow green and black colors. Interior color was changed to suede gray 3-22-48. This resulting scheme was the same as what then appeared on the two tracings that superseded it except that they specified all handrails and handholds to be painted black. Specifications for painting the safety appliances chrome yellow were added to these tracings 10-12-51. Instructions to paint the edges of footboards yellow were added 9-24-52. D-438379 was not the first diagram for these classes, it superseded D-412053 on account of relocation of lettering. The earlier drawing was issued 8-26-37. It showed the same paint colors as the later drawing but it originally called out Futura lettering. The Futura was changed to block lettering 6-18-41. Bottom line: Dark green paint with Buff lettering. Jack Consoli -----Original Message----- From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:49 PM To: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Switcher lettering color Andy, PRR tracing B-441288, issued 11-26-48 for class ES10 switchers shows the color scheme to be Dark Green Locomotive Paint with all lettering and numerals Buff color. Classes ES12 and ES12M were later added to the same tracing. [ES10 (NW2) were built 1941-1948] Similarly, tracing B-441289, issued 11-26-48 for class ES6 and ES6 (#5911) switchers shows the same scheme. [ES6 #5911 was built 1937, other ES6 built 1942-1950] Both supeseded tracing D-438379 whch was changed "on account of adding numbers on ends of the locomotive". Don't have this one in hand, but would be surprised if it showed lettering color other than Buff (same as steam shifters). Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Cich To: Prr-talk Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Diesel Switcher lettering color > List, > > I've been studying lettering colors for diesel locomotives, and am now a > little confused about the switchers. Now that I know the F-units came > delivered in buff lettering, this has cast doubt on what the lettering color > was on the switchers. > > In the 40's, the PRR got lots of switchers; SW1's, NW2's, S1's, VO-660's, > VO-1000's, etc. What lettering color were these locos delivered with? Did > this change in the early 50's when the passenger diesels switched from Gold > Leaf to Delux Gold? > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:11:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > On Monday, April 14, 2003, at 09:39 PM, Vince Miller wrote: > > > I'm still trying to tell the difference between E and F EMD units . > > That will give a lot of you a big laugh but I'll bet someone else is > > just > > like me . So send in your cards and letters all you "Lurkers" out > > there . > > There are no dumb questions , only a few dopes who think they are > > smarter > > than everyone else, the rest are Gentleman one and all > > Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences > between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were > longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger cars. Well, um, there's also the obvious: E units had 6 axles F units (except the FL-9) had 4. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:21:18 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: There are over 600 people on the list, and only 50 or so who speak up "regularly". This is okay, but I bet a lot of those other folks are intimidated and afraid to speak up. Don't be!!! Come out of the shadows and speak up! > Well, sometimes lurkers don't "speak up regularly" because we don't speak > "Pennsy". I, personally, regularly lurk on roughly 50 Yahoo rail sites > and only speak on maybe 4 or 5. However, there isn't one day goes by that > I haven't learned somthing important from 1 or 2 of the sites. My own railway for modeling is the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo Ry. The TH&B was a connecting line between, guess where, Toronto and Buffalo, and centered in Hamilton. Since I grew up in Hamilton, it seemed to be the most reasonable line to model ! :-) Sooo.... Don't be surprised if ALL your members don't speak up regularly ! . > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:27:47 -0800 To take Jerry up on his offer... In reading Triumph III (Philadelphia Terminal Division), it seems to me that part of the Pennsy's growth involved a bunch of smaller "companies" that seemed to connected to the railroad, yet somehow not part of it. Example... The Connecting Ry Company. It connected the Philadephia & Trenton (at Frankford Jct) with the PRR (at Mantua). It seems that the P&T was already part of the PRR. So it looks like 3 companies are involved in this connection. Why wouldn't the "PRR" just build tracks from Mantua (now ZOO) to Frankford Jct? In a similar vein, the Delaware Bridge & Railroad Co built a swing bridge from Frankford Jct to Pennsauken (i think to the Camden & Amboy RR (PRR)) over the Delaware River. It's a wholly PRR effort, yet a new company is formed to do this. There are probably dozens more like this. I haven't seen an explanation of why this is.... Is it to arrange a favorable tax scheme, secure financing, limit liabilities? I dont think I've ever seen pictures of P&T,DBRR,CRy locos or rolling stock, (but they might exist). The Reading seems equally guilty of this...... thanks.... -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:30:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:21 PM, Godfrey Hall wrote: > My own railway for modeling is the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo Ry. The > TH&B > was a connecting line between, guess where, Toronto and Buffalo, and > centered in Hamilton. Since I grew up in Hamilton, it seemed to be the > most > reasonable line to model ! :-) > > Sooo.... Don't be surprised if ALL your members don't speak up > regularly ! > Gotta ask, what brought you to a PRR list? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:38:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences > between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were > longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger cars. I don't want to jump in here an "scare" any of our lurkers, but this comment is too good an opportunity to miss! It shows that you never know too enough not to learn more!!! I only found this out recently, but the "standard" F unit could be purchased with a steam generator...giving you three distinct options for passenger service with steam heat, the F, FP and E series from GM, of which PRR only used the later two...The reason for the longer carbody in the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence nearly twice the horses as an F unit). This actually becomes interesting if you add sound, since an E unit ought to sound as if it has two motors that aren't quite in sync! I'm doing this with a sound decoder in a B-unit (yeah, I know that I should really have FOUR primer movers, but then the effect is lost, and so is my wallet!) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:38:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:27 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > In reading Triumph III (Philadelphia Terminal Division), it seems to > me that > part of the Pennsy's growth involved a bunch of smaller "companies" > that > seemed to connected to the railroad, yet somehow not part of it. > > In a similar vein, the Delaware Bridge & Railroad Co built a swing > bridge > from Frankford Jct to Pennsauken (i think to the Camden & Amboy RR > (PRR)) > over the Delaware River. It's a wholly PRR effort, yet a new company > is > formed to do this. > > There are probably dozens more like this. > Yes, the system was totally full of these scenarios. The PRR would financially control one railroad (without outright owning it) or lease it; that railroad would do the same to another, etc. A lot of this info is in the "Centennial History of the PRR". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:42:11 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! A friend of mine models Pennsy, and told me how much he enjoyed the group. This was the first Yahoo group I signed up to and it started me on my "collection" of sites. Because of the information I have gleaned, I have met a number of new friends and am now involved in such things as co-editing a 28 page Quarterly newsmagazine and working with a manufacturer to, possibly, bring out a passenger car that is not on the market. All of this from lurking on "your" site. "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:21 PM, Godfrey Hall wrote: > > > My own railway for modeling is the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo Ry. The > > TH&B > > was a connecting line between, guess where, Toronto and Buffalo, and > > centered in Hamilton. Since I grew up in Hamilton, it seemed to be the > > most > > reasonable line to model ! :-) > > > > Sooo.... Don't be surprised if ALL your members don't speak up > > regularly ! > > > Gotta ask, what brought you to a PRR list? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:44:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:38 PM, Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: >> Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences >> between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were >> longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger >> cars. > > I don't want to jump in here an "scare" any of our lurkers, but > this comment is too good an opportunity to miss! It shows that you > never > know too enough not to learn more!!! > > I only found this out recently, but the "standard" F unit could > be purchased with a steam generator...giving you three distinct options News to me! > for passenger service with steam heat, the F, FP and E series from GM, > of > which PRR only used the later two... Knew about the FP, of course, but didn't want to complicate matters! > The reason for the longer carbody in > the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence nearly twice the > horses as an F unit). Don't know if I didn't know this or never thought about it much. The F's started at 1500 hp and the E's at 2000 hp. Never really pondered the mechanism. > This actually becomes interesting if you add sound, > since an E unit ought to sound as if it has two motors that aren't > quite > in sync! I'm doing this with a sound decoder in a B-unit (yeah, I know > that I should really have FOUR primer movers, but then the effect is > lost, > and so is my wallet!) And the "Digital Geek award goes to..."!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:47:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:42 PM, Godfrey Hall wrote: > A friend of mine models Pennsy, and told me how much he enjoyed the > group. > This was the first Yahoo group I signed up to and it started me on my > "collection" of sites. Confusion reigns! This was never a Yahoo site! Nor its predecessors OneList and eGroups! PRR-talk, the first Internet mailing list dedicated to the PRR, has always been at prr-talk@dsop.com! > > Because of the information I have gleaned, I have met a number of new > friends and am now involved in such things as co-editing a 28 page > Quarterly > newsmagazine and working with a manufacturer to, possibly, bring out a > passenger car that is not on the market. > > All of this from lurking on "your" site. No doubt there's a lot to be learned. I'm constantly learning. Just cause I run the list doesn't mean I'm an expert -- as many will remind me!!! My forte is more in passenger equipment than anything else. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:53:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alex Charyna wrote: > Example... > The Connecting Ry Company. It connected the Philadephia & Trenton (at > Frankford Jct) with the PRR (at Mantua). It seems that the P&T was already > part of the PRR. So it looks like 3 companies are involved in this > connection. Why wouldn't the "PRR" just build tracks from Mantua (now ZOO) > to Frankford Jct? Vagaries of chartering, probably. I can't prove this, I should do some research, but it seems to have been easier to charter a new railroad to run between Y and X than to amend the charter of one already running between Y and Z to include a run to X. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:27:47 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections --------------000805040900030107000507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derrick wins the prize. The original PRR charter allowed it to build a main line across Pennsylvania plus branches into any contiguous counties. That leaves out a lot of Pennsylvania, plus of course all other states. It was easier for PRR to buy connecting lines or lease them for 999 years than to amend the charter, which did allow these business practices. This changed slowly over time, because PRR bought the state works outright in 1857, and eventually merged other lines into itself. It acquired control of the Northern Central (1914) but even in the 1960s continued to maintain it as a separate corporate entity. By contrast, PRR acquired control of the Cumberland Valley (1919) but didn't keep it separate. A 1966 annual report statement says PRR operated and held stock or bonds in the following: Cleveland & Pittsburgh RR Connecting Ry Delaware RR Elmira & Williamsport RR Erie & Pittsburgh RR Little Miami RR New York Bay RR Co. Northern Central Pennsylvania Tunnel & Terminal RR Philadelphia & Trenton RR Phila., Balt. & Wash. RR Pgh., Cincinnati, Chic. & St. Louis RR Pgh., Ft. Wayne & Chicago Ry Pgh., Youngtown & Ashtabula Ry Shamokin Valley & Pottsville RR Union RR Co. of Balt. United NJ RR & Canal Co West Jersey & Seashore RR Nobody has researched the full story of the whys and wherefores behind decisions to buy or lease, merge or not merge, and in fact it may not be possible to do so at this date, even with the records that are available at Hagley and Harrisburg. Probably the answers lie in a combination of tax, legal, financial, and labor issues. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA --------------------------------------------- Derrick J Brashear wrote: >On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alex Charyna wrote: > > > >>Example... >>The Connecting Ry Company. It connected the Philadephia & Trenton (at >>Frankford Jct) with the PRR (at Mantua). It seems that the P&T was already >>part of the PRR. So it looks like 3 companies are involved in this >>connection. Why wouldn't the "PRR" just build tracks from Mantua (now ZOO) >>to Frankford Jct? >> >> > >Vagaries of chartering, probably. > >I can't prove this, I should do some research, but it seems to have been >easier to charter a new railroad to run between Y and X than to amend the >charter of one already running between Y and Z to include a run to X. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------000805040900030107000507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Derrick wins the prize.
 
The original PRR charter allowed it to build a main line across Pennsylvania plus branches into any contiguous counties. That leaves out a lot of Pennsylvania, plus of course all other states.

It was easier for PRR to buy connecting lines or lease them for 999 years than to amend the charter, which did allow these business practices.

This changed slowly over time, because PRR bought the state works outright in 1857, and eventually merged other lines into itself. It acquired control of the Northern Central (1914) but even in the 1960s continued to maintain it as a separate corporate entity. By contrast, PRR acquired control of the Cumberland Valley (1919) but didn't keep it separate. A 1966 annual report statement says PRR operated and held stock or bonds in the following:
Cleveland & Pittsburgh RR
Connecting Ry
Delaware RR
Elmira & Williamsport RR
Erie & Pittsburgh RR
Little Miami RR
New York Bay RR Co.
Northern Central
Pennsylvania Tunnel & Terminal RR
Philadelphia & Trenton RR
Phila., Balt. & Wash. RR
Pgh., Cincinnati, Chic. & St. Louis RR
Pgh., Ft. Wayne & Chicago Ry
Pgh., Youngtown & Ashtabula Ry
Shamokin Valley & Pottsville RR
Union RR Co. of Balt.
United NJ RR & Canal Co
West Jersey & Seashore RR

Nobody has researched the full story of the whys and wherefores behind decisions to buy or lease, merge or not merge, and in fact it may not be possible to do so at this date, even with the records that are available at Hagley and Harrisburg. Probably the answers lie in a combination of tax, legal, financial, and labor issues.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, PA
---------------------------------------------
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alex Charyna wrote:



  
Example...

The Connecting Ry Company.  It connected the Philadephia & Trenton (at

Frankford Jct) with the PRR (at Mantua).  It seems that the P&T was already

part of the PRR.  So it looks like 3 companies are involved in this

connection.  Why wouldn't the "PRR" just build tracks from Mantua (now ZOO)

to Frankford Jct?

    


Vagaries of chartering, probably.



I can't prove this, I should do some research, but it seems to have been

easier to charter a new railroad to run between Y and X than to amend the

charter of one already running between Y and Z to include a run to X.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------------000805040900030107000507-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:51:26 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections Derrick/all: Derrick wrote [abridged]: >it seems to have been easier to charter a new railroad to run between Y and X than to amend the charter of one already running between Y and Z to include a run to X. > I have no idea if this is true for the PRR, but the above is the exact reason the Western Maryland did the same thing when expanding. It was easier to get a new charter in MD than extend an existing one. I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true for the PRR/Reading in PA. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Diesel Switcher lettering color Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:54:31 -0500 Joe, Thanks for the summary: "Bottom line: Dark green paint with Buff lettering." I also had an off-list conversation with Greg Martin regarding this matter. He said he thought Microscale re-released one of their PRR sets in buff. My inquiries to Microscale regarding this matter have gone unanswered. Stewart has been releasing a bunch of wonderful Baldwin switchers. I'm satisfied with the green they used, but all the lettering is gold. At least some of the manufacturers are listening to Greg; the Athearn Genesis units are absolutely beautiful. I guess I better be careful before jumping on Stewart, since your drawing is for EMD switchers. But I did talk to some guys who actually worked on the railroad in the 50's at the last PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter meeting where the consensus was all the switchers were buff. I guess the next question for this matter is were the switchers ever painted in gold lettering? Or have all the manufacturers been promulgating a myth for all these years? Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:54:58 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alex Charyna wrote: > > connection. Why wouldn't the "PRR" just build tracks from Mantua > (now ZOO) > > to Frankford Jct? > > Vagaries of chartering, probably. > > I can't prove this, I should do some research, but it seems to have > been > easier to charter a new railroad to run between Y and X than to > amend the > charter of one already running between Y and Z to include a run to > X. Two thoughts: 1) In addition to whether or not the charter gave the right to build the desired addition, there would be the question of whether the charter's limits on stock and debt would accomodate the new undertaking. A new corporation would have its own limits. 2} If you're going to encourage the legislature to amend your charter, there is a risk that they will amend in ways you hadn't thought of and do not want. There is a third sneakier motive, although I don't think PRR engaged in it. The basic idea is to build RR A, getting your funds from a mix of common (voting) and preferred (non-voting) stocks, and bonds. Say, 25% common, 25% preferred, 50% bonds. Since you need only 50% + 1 share of the common stock, you can control the RR while putting up roughly 1/8 of its cost. Now charter RR B, set up the same arrangemnt of stocks and bonds. Use your control of A to cause it to buy 50%+ of B's common, with others picking up the rest of the tab. You've just doubled the assets you control at no additional cost to you. Now RR C, and you use your control of A to cause A to buy C common. Or, you cause A to use its control of B to cause B to buy C common. Or, you do some of each. And so on and so on through D, E, F... It's called "leverage" in some circles. That would allow you to control arbitrarily large RR undertakings for a rather small initial expense to you. Granted your modest holding in the stock of A would not yield much income, but you would have power, which might be better than cash. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:53:28 -0500 Jerry wrote-- > > The E's were used in passenger service and the F's in freight service. > As such, the F units were painted Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) > with one narrow stripe. The E units were originally DGLE, with five > narrow stripes, but as of 1952 were painted in Tuscan Red, still with > five narrow stripes. In 1954 the five stripes was replaced by one broad > stripe. > Here you are trying to encourage folks to speak up--a good thing--and I have to risk seeming "smarter than everyone else". It ain't so; I am just reading it from a book. According to Withers Vol. 7, p. 473, the single broad stripe came into being in August of 1956. This should make a difference to both of us modeling in 1954. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:21:08 -0800 Thanks to all for quick replies!! Another piece of the puzzle explained! -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "Derrick J Brashear" ; "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections > --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Alex Charyna wrote: > > > connection. Why wouldn't the "PRR" just build tracks from Mantua > > (now ZOO) > > > to Frankford Jct? > > > > Vagaries of chartering, probably. > > > > I can't prove this, I should do some research, but it seems to have > > been > > easier to charter a new railroad to run between Y and X than to > > amend the > > charter of one already running between Y and Z to include a run to > > X. > > Two thoughts: > > 1) In addition to whether or not the charter gave the right to build > the desired addition, there would be the question of whether the > charter's limits on stock and debt would accomodate the new > undertaking. A new corporation would have its own limits. > > 2} If you're going to encourage the legislature to amend your > charter, there is a risk that they will amend in ways you hadn't > thought of and do not want. > > There is a third sneakier motive, although I don't think PRR engaged > in it. The basic idea is to build RR A, getting your funds from a mix > of common (voting) and preferred (non-voting) stocks, and bonds. Say, > 25% common, 25% preferred, 50% bonds. > > Since you need only 50% + 1 share of the common stock, you can > control the RR while putting up roughly 1/8 of its cost. > > Now charter RR B, set up the same arrangemnt of stocks and bonds. Use > your control of A to cause it to buy 50%+ of B's common, with others > picking up the rest of the tab. You've just doubled the assets you > control at no additional cost to you. > > Now RR C, and you use your control of A to cause A to buy C common. > Or, you cause A to use its control of B to cause B to buy C common. > Or, you do some of each. And so on and so on through D, E, F... It's > called "leverage" in some circles. > > That would allow you to control arbitrarily large RR undertakings for > a rather small initial expense to you. Granted your modest holding in > the stock of A would not yield much income, but you would have power, > which might be better than cash. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more > http://tax.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:22:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! From: Jerry Britton On 4/13/03 11:53 PM, "Steve Hoxie" wrote: >> The E's were used in passenger service and the F's in freight service. >> As such, the F units were painted Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) >> with one narrow stripe. The E units were originally DGLE, with five >> narrow stripes, but as of 1952 were painted in Tuscan Red, still with >> five narrow stripes. In 1954 the five stripes was replaced by one broad >> stripe. >> > Here you are trying to encourage folks to speak up--a good thing--and I have > to risk seeming "smarter than everyone else". It ain't so; I am just > reading it from a book. According to Withers Vol. 7, p. 473, the single > broad stripe came into being in August of 1956. This should make a > difference to both of us modeling in 1954. > I have some actual Painting and Lettering diagrams that show broad stripe in 1954. That was part of the basis for my picking 1954 as my modeling era. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:31:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Broad Stripe Scheme From: Jerry Britton A few moments ago I posted a response that reaffirmed that the passenger loco paint scheme switched from five narrow stripes to single broad stripe in 1954, saying that I had lettering diagrams. This was in response to a post that indicated they thought it was in 1956. The cover shot of the 1954 annual report is the night shot of Horseshoe Curve. In the lower foreground is a passenger train pulled by an ABA set of E7's in Tuscan Red with a single broad stripe. This is a photo, and it is in color, and it is on the 1954 annual report which would have been printed early in 1955. You can always say that a photo in a photo book has an error in the caption. You can also say that a lettering diagram was created as of xxx date, but wasn't implemented until later. But a piece of PRR printed/dated photo material is proof! I know there are other examples, but the annual report was quick and easy! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:42:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mainline --part1_1e9.68251c2.2bcbea98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was recently back home (east) and had the opportunity to view the former PRR mainline at Kinzers, Pa.. Other than Amtrak, what traffic is using the Philly to Harrisburg section? Do trailvan and mail trains still ply this route. The rail doesn't appear to be heavily used. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_1e9.68251c2.2bcbea98_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   I was recently back home (east) and had the opp= ortunity to view the former PRR mainline at Kinzers, Pa..

  Other than Amtrak, what traffic is using the Philly to Harrisburg sec= tion?  Do trailvan and mail trains still ply this route.  The rail= doesn't appear to be heavily used.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_1e9.68251c2.2bcbea98_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Broad Stripe Scheme Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:17:14 -0500 FWIW, Pennsy Journal, Spring 1981, has an article on the PA's. Many lettering diagrams are included. The single broad stripe drawing says it is effective 8/1/56. Pennsy Journal, Winter 1981, has an article on the passenger sharks, including lettering drawings. The broad stripe diagram says it was effective 7/20/56. Douglas & Weiglin's "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968" also says the change took place in 1956. I took a look at the 1954 annual report. I do not think the cover is a photograph. It looks to me like an artist's drawing. My guess is a little artistic license, and the five stripes appeared as one from the distance to the units. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:50:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Broad Stripe Scheme From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/03 7:17 AM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@insightbb.com) wrote: > FWIW, Pennsy Journal, Spring 1981, has an article on the PA's. Many > lettering diagrams are included. The single broad stripe drawing says it is > effective 8/1/56. > > Pennsy Journal, Winter 1981, has an article on the passenger sharks, > including lettering drawings. The broad stripe diagram says it was > effective 7/20/56. > > Douglas & Weiglin's "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968" also says the change took > place in 1956. > > I took a look at the 1954 annual report. I do not think the cover is a > photograph. It looks to me like an artist's drawing. My guess is a little > artistic license, and the five stripes appeared as one from the distance to > the units. > Fair enough, commentary-wise. I guess I'll have to dig! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:24:09 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) All HO gaugers knew that. The classic Athearn F unit has the steam generator. On of the long time requirement of PRR fans was to remove all that roof hardware in the rear before repainting the F unit. It wasn't until the recent spate of highly detailed, road-accurate F units that this requirement went away. BTW Didn't the ATSF haul most of its passenger trains with steam heat equipped F-7s? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > > Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences > > between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were > > longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger cars. > > I don't want to jump in here an "scare" any of our lurkers, but > this comment is too good an opportunity to miss! It shows that you never > know too enough not to learn more!!! > > I only found this out recently, but the "standard" F unit could > be purchased with a steam generator...giving you three distinct options > for passenger service with steam heat, the F, FP and E series from GM, of > which PRR only used the later two...The reason for the longer carbody in > the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence nearly twice the > horses as an F unit). This actually becomes interesting if you add sound, > since an E unit ought to sound as if it has two motors that aren't quite > in sync! I'm doing this with a sound decoder in a B-unit (yeah, I know > that I should really have FOUR primer movers, but then the effect is lost, > and so is my wallet!) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:47:18 -0400 Howdy All: Hold on to those sound units for a bit guys. The E's used two 12 cylinders 567's - basically EMD's standard switcher engines, or 1000hp each (E7s - 1125hp for the E8)(Selling point for the Alco PA - one 16cylinder 244 @ 2000hp - reliability point for EMD - if one failed the other could limp the train in) The F's used one 16 cylinder 567 or 1500 hp each The Pennsy did have some of each too: EF-15a the F7 EPA-15 the FP7's 42 A's and 12 B's (no FP3's hence not EPA-15a) some in Tuscan (Those darn Athearn folks had it write - well wrong number and not quite the correct color) EP-20's and EP-22's the E7s and E8s Don't forget - they are normally aspirated engines - can't use that turbo whinner sound. Back to lurking... Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! I only found this out recently, but the "standard" F unit could be purchased with a steam generator...giving you three distinct options for passenger service with steam heat, the F, FP and E series from GM, of which PRR only used the later two...The reason for the longer carbody in the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence nearly twice the horses as an F unit). This actually becomes interesting if you add sound, since an E unit ought to sound as if it has two motors that aren't quite in sync! I'm doing this with a sound decoder in a B-unit (yeah, I know that I should really have FOUR primer movers, but then the effect is lost, and so is my wallet!) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:28:30 -0400 Andy, Yes. I believe they had only a few E units. Of course they also used PA's Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:24 AM To: Bruce F Smith Cc: Jerry @ Pennsy; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) All HO gaugers knew that. The classic Athearn F unit has the steam generator. On of the long time requirement of PRR fans was to remove all that roof hardware in the rear before repainting the F unit. It wasn't until the recent spate of highly detailed, road-accurate F units that this requirement went away. BTW Didn't the ATSF haul most of its passenger trains with steam heat equipped F-7s? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > > Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences > > between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were > > longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger cars. > > I don't want to jump in here an "scare" any of our lurkers, but > this comment is too good an opportunity to miss! It shows that you never > know too enough not to learn more!!! > > I only found this out recently, but the "standard" F unit could > be purchased with a steam generator...giving you three distinct options > for passenger service with steam heat, the F, FP and E series from GM, of > which PRR only used the later two...The reason for the longer carbody in > the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence nearly twice the > horses as an F unit). This actually becomes interesting if you add sound, > since an E unit ought to sound as if it has two motors that aren't quite > in sync! I'm doing this with a sound decoder in a B-unit (yeah, I know > that I should really have FOUR primer movers, but then the effect is lost, > and so is my wallet!) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:53:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) In a message dated 4/14/03 8:36:33 AM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes (re the ATSF): << Of course they also used PA's >> And a stray DL-109 and Erie-built. I know it is the wrong list, but somewhere in my files is a discussion of the use or non-use of FP7s by ATSF. Some of their dual-service Fs were F3s, by the way. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:54:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) In a message dated 4/14/03 7:33:01 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << On of the long time requirement of PRR fans was to remove all that roof hardware in the rear before repainting the F unit. >> As well as removing the dynamic brakes on the Rivarossi E-8, if you are going to go all the way :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:12:18 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! In a message dated 4/13/2003 8:38:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > The reason for the longer carbody in > the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence > nearly twice the > horses as an F unit). This isn't quite right. F units were 1500 hp E7's were 2000 and E8' 2250. The E's had two prime movers, either of which could continue to operate if the other went down. To a certain extent they served as redundant power plants to keep the passenger trains moving. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:36:30 -0700 On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:53:16 EDT Bobspf@aol.com wrote: >...but > somewhere in my files is a discussion of the use or > non-use of FP7s by ATSF. > Some of their dual-service Fs were F3s, by the way. > Bob, FWIW, the Santa Fe did NOT use FP-7's. All of their passenger F's were straight FT's (used until the delivery of the F-3's was completed), and F-3 and F-7 units. An interesting quirk of Santa Fe F units was that they contained the steam generator in the B unit only. Their dual-sevice units (300 class, and painted in passenger "red nose" colors) were all F-7's (no F-3's) while their 281-class F-9's were used in freight service only. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:37:15 -0400 Question: What part of the Rivarossi do you remove to make a PRR engine? I have never seen the roof of an E-8 in real life. I have 4 Riv. E-8s sitting here to be superdetailed and painted. I want to run them back to back as permanently drawbar coupled units. Anyone want to offer suggestions on how I should proceed, and what to remove/add? Any suggestions for hardware, paint, lettering and numbers would be welcome and appreciated. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) > In a message dated 4/14/03 7:33:01 AM Central Daylight Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > << On of the long time requirement of PRR fans was to remove all that roof > hardware in the rear before repainting the F unit. >> > > As well as removing the dynamic brakes on the Rivarossi E-8, if you are > going to go all the way :-). > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:43:56 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! I said: > >> The reason for the longer carbody in >> the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence >> nearly twice the >> horses as an F unit). > Rich Orr replies: >This isn't quite right. F units were 1500 hp E7's were 2000 and E8' 2250. >The E's had two prime movers, either of which could continue to operate if >the other went down. To a certain extent they served as redundant power >plants to keep the passenger trains moving. See, I'm still learning!! Actually, Diseasels are mostly past my 1944 time frame, so the only ones I have are either going to be display modles (2 GP30s I want to "trick out") or will somehow end up on my layout as visitors (ACL E6A&B, NP VO1000, US Transportation Corps VO1000) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:53:20 -0500 While the Sante Fe regularly used F units in pasenger service, I think only the B units were equipped with steam generators. Can someone confirm or elaborate on this? -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:29 AM Cc: PRR Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Andy, Yes. I believe they had only a few E units. Of course they also used PA's Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:24 AM To: Bruce F Smith Cc: Jerry @ Pennsy; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) All HO gaugers knew that. The classic Athearn F unit has the steam generator. On of the long time requirement of PRR fans was to remove all that roof hardware in the rear before repainting the F unit. It wasn't until the recent spate of highly detailed, road-accurate F units that this requirement went away. BTW Didn't the ATSF haul most of its passenger trains with steam heat equipped F-7s? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > > Even I would have to get out the books to detail the differences > > between the E's and F's, but a generalization is that the E units were > > longer in order to house the steam generator to heat the passenger cars. > > I don't want to jump in here an "scare" any of our lurkers, but > this comment is too good an opportunity to miss! It shows that you never > know too enough not to learn more!!! > > I only found this out recently, but the "standard" F unit could > be purchased with a steam generator...giving you three distinct options > for passenger service with steam heat, the F, FP and E series from GM, of > which PRR only used the later two...The reason for the longer carbody in > the E unit is that it had TWO primer movers (and hence nearly twice the > horses as an F unit). This actually becomes interesting if you add sound, > since an E unit ought to sound as if it has two motors that aren't quite > in sync! I'm doing this with a sound decoder in a B-unit (yeah, I know > that I should really have FOUR primer movers, but then the effect is lost, > and so is my wallet!) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:07:02 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections > Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:27:47 -0400 > > > --------------000805040900030107000507 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This changed slowly over time, because PRR bought the state works > outright in 1857, and eventually merged other lines into itself. It > acquired control of the Northern Central (1914) but even in the 1960s > continued to maintain it as a separate corporate entity. By contrast, > PRR acquired control of the Cumberland Valley (1919) but didn't keep it > separate. Didn't PRR acquire stock control of the Cumberland Valley RR long before 1919, like in the mid-19th Century? Same question for the Northern Central. 1919 was just the year that the PRR merged the CVRR into its organizational structure as part of a general consolidation of management fo several controlled lines following release of the railroads by FRA. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:10:30 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units Folks, Yessir, aside from the forementioned units, Santa Fe also had a few E units, at least one of which was a rebuild from an old box cab passenger unit, if I recall. Other roads using passenger F's would include the Rock Island, B&M, NP, GM&O, SP&S, B&O, Erie, GN, CGW and Monon. I'm sure there's others, but those lines came to mind right off. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:28:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi HO EMD E-8s (PRR class EP22) Lew, list, I just converted an old Rivarossi dummy E-8 into a facsimilie of PRR 5711 (one of the Juniata Terminal-owned engines). I cut off the existing pilot and replaced it with an EMD "passenger pilot." There are now several sources for these; mine was from Detail Associates. I added Cal Scale lift rings to the nose and the Cal Scale antenna set. I also filed and sanded off the dynamic brake fan (before adding the antenna set); none of PRR's E units had dynamics. I used the Champ buff/dulux decal set and painted her Tuscan red with 5 stripes. You can go a lot farther than I did, and some people will ask why I didn't buy a LifeLike Proto 2000 unit; the engine is a sentimental favorite of my grandfather and scrapping it was not in the cards. Doug --- "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > Question: > > What part of the Rivarossi do you remove to make a > PRR engine? I have never > seen the roof of an E-8 in real life. > > I have 4 Riv. E-8s sitting here to be superdetailed > and painted. I want to > run them back to back as permanently drawbar coupled > units. Anyone want to > offer suggestions on how I should proceed, and what > to remove/add? Any > suggestions for hardware, paint, lettering and > numbers would be welcome and > appreciated. > > Lew Matt > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:33:06 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections Greetigns to Vagel and the List: Oh yes, very true. PRR had been buying control bit by bit for decades. In the case of the NC, it was to keep it out of the hands of the B&O, just as it increased its holdings in PFtW&C to keep it out of the Erie camp. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Vagel C. Keller, Jr. wrote: > >> Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Company Names & PRR connections >> From: "Dan Cupper" >> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:27:47 -0400 >> >> >> --------------000805040900030107000507 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> This changed slowly over time, because PRR bought the state works >> outright in 1857, and eventually merged other lines into itself. It >> acquired control of the Northern Central (1914) but even in the 1960s >> continued to maintain it as a separate corporate entity. By contrast, >> PRR acquired control of the Cumberland Valley (1919) but didn't keep it >> separate. > > > Didn't PRR acquire stock control of the Cumberland Valley RR long > before 1919, like in the mid-19th Century? Same question for the > Northern Central. 1919 was just the year that the PRR merged the CVRR > into its organizational structure as part of a general consolidation > of management fo several controlled lines following release of the > railroads by FRA. > > Vagel Keller > Pittsburgh > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:37:19 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Broad Stripe Scheme Greetings to Jerry and the List: Be aware that the Sylvania night photo of Horseshoe Curve as published almost always appears in retouched form (fireworks added, etc.). The five stripes either "read" as one, or they were retouched for some reason. Check the road-name lettering beneath the stripe -- it's the same 8-inch size as that on the Fairbanks-Morse freight diesel to the right. If this were truly the broad stripe scheme, the unit would in all likelihood also be carrying the 16-inch lettering, which is absent. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Jerry Britton wrote: >A few moments ago I posted a response that reaffirmed that the passenger >loco paint scheme switched from five narrow stripes to single broad stripe >in 1954, saying that I had lettering diagrams. > >This was in response to a post that indicated they thought it was in 1956. > >The cover shot of the 1954 annual report is the night shot of Horseshoe >Curve. In the lower foreground is a passenger train pulled by an ABA set of >E7's in Tuscan Red with a single broad stripe. This is a photo, and it is in >color, and it is on the 1954 annual report which would have been printed >early in 1955. > >You can always say that a photo in a photo book has an error in the caption. >You can also say that a lettering diagram was created as of xxx date, but >wasn't implemented until later. But a piece of PRR printed/dated photo >material is proof! > >I know there are other examples, but the annual report was quick and easy! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:42:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) From: aurora7@juno.com Good Lord! It isn't a question of F's vs E's. It's FA's vs PA's! Complicate it further by adding C-Liners vs Erie-Builts. F's vs E's. Puuulease! Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I think crime pays. The hours are good and you travel a lot." - Woody Allen ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:47:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Broad Stripe Scheme From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/03 11:37 AM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > > Be aware that the Sylvania night photo of Horseshoe Curve as published > almost always appears in retouched form (fireworks added, etc.). The > five stripes either "read" as one, or they were retouched for some > reason. Check the road-name lettering beneath the stripe -- it's the > same 8-inch size as that on the Fairbanks-Morse freight diesel to the > right. If this were truly the broad stripe scheme, the unit would in all > likelihood also be carrying the 16-inch lettering, which is absent. > Okay, Dan, I don't like you any more!!! Just kidding. I really would like to know the answer. For my modeling purposes, broad stripe isn't that big of a deal. I prefer the five stripers. Out of 54 locos, only two (a pair of E8's) have broad stripe paint. When I researched this originally, years ago, I quickly determined that it started in 1954, but was slow to be adopted. I'll have to now try to recreate what my sources were. If it did indeed start in 1954, the slow adoption may be attributed to the fact that the paint schemes had just been changed two years before (DGLE to Tuscan) and that most units did not need repainting that quickly. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:53:05 -0400 Jerry wrote: "... his situation is similar to many. He has > been on the list for years, just lurking in a corner. > > There are over 600 people on the list, and only 50 or so who speak up > "regularly". > This is probably sacriledge on PRR-talk, but Pennsy isn't my 'first love' of railroads. Family connections, proximity and my first railroad experiences with the Boston & Maine put that line first in my heart. But PRR's mammoth multiple-track (and multiple train) Lines East mainline operations were damned impressive, and got me hooked after a friend loaned me "Pennsy Power II" way back when. I'm a fan of the Walter Franklin cats-whisker era of the PRR, when the ballast on the main lines was still being boarded and almost unbelievably perfect, and seemingly every model of diesel under the sun ran on PRR metals. The wide-single-stripe era represents Jim Symes and the beginning of the end of the "great" PRR, to me. A real eye-opener for me were the PRR documents Bob Reid reprinted in PC Railroader and Rails Northeast: the yard maps, interlocking diagrams, mainline track charts, arranged freight service documents, makeup of passenger trains documents, etc.etc. Books such as "Pennsy in the Steel City" and "Pennsy's Golden Triangle" really put someone like me over the edge. Gotta pick up some of those "Triumph" books before they're out of print, too. I'm sitting here shaking my head, just thinking of how huge the Pennsy was, in terms of its facilities: Altoona, Enola, Conway/Pitcairn, the great track complexes through Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (among others) with the separated rights of way for passenger and freight traffic, flying junctions, entire main lines like the A&S, Trenton branch or Conemaugh division dedicated to freight in order to reduce congestion on the mains (because THEY were so full of trains, especially long haul passenger and commuters), etc. There was nothing else like it, and I doubt ever will be again. My head is also shaking because so much of it is gone: flat green fields around Pittsburgh where huge PRR-served steel mills used to stand, rights of way like the A&S lying fallow and unused, Enola a mere shadow of itself, enormous shops like Sam Rea at Hollidaysburg being closed, etc. Such is progress, I guess, and progress sometimes sucks. I enjoy reading some of the postings on this list. Some of the discourse gets over the top for me, or is about aspects of the PRR that I find less than interesting, but that's what the 'delete' button is for on my email client. The RPI club's John Nehrich also put it well (and I'll paraphrase): "If you model American standard gauge railroading in the 1950's, you're a Pennsy modeler." It's good to hear about new releases of PRR models on PRR-talk. Unfortunately, I'm in a hobby shop desert around here, the closest ones are an hour's drive in either direction. And, neither of them carry Bowser products. :^( Thus, my B&M/MEC layout is woefully unrepresentative of PRR cars in the numbers it should have, in terms of relatively *accurate* cars. I guess I need to start buying on ebay or via mail order, but I really prefer to see what I'm buying in person, been burned several times on the mail order route. I also don't have the pockets deep enough nor the time to shell out $20+ each for an Intermountain X29 kit. I have enough 'skill required' no trucks/no couplers/no paint/no time kits on the workshop shelves for my New England models, that I probably won't be able to tackle until I retire. The Walthers Trainline RTR version of the X29 is more my speed/budget, at the moment. I can live with the 'claws' on the doors, all my Athearn/MDC box cars have them, too. Just wish Walthers had done up their PRR version in something even CLOSE to freight car color, the tuscan red they put on it looks a bit ridiculous, to me anyway. Anybody have any recommendations for a good approach to assemble a representative fleet of late 50's PRR freight cars in HO, on a limited budget/skill set, i.e. more along the lines of shake the box types of cars than craftsman kits? "Bowser" seems the logical answer, but which cars were most prevalent in interchange service? For instance, try as I might, I haven't seen a lot of photos of PRR hoppers in New England, at least in my modeling era of 1955-1960. Boxcars, gondolas and flat cars seem more prevalent, in the photos I've been perusing. Anyhoo, $.02 from one of the "silent majority" of 550 on this list. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:03:43 -0400 Barry Peltier wrote: Folks, Yessir, aside from the forementioned units, Santa Fe also had a few E units, at least one of which was a rebuild from an old box cab passenger unit, if I recall. Other roads using passenger F's would include the Rock Island, B&M, NP, GM&O, SP&S, B&O, Erie, GN, CGW and Monon. I'm sure there's others, but those lines came to mind right off. So what's all of this got to do with the Pennsy? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:12:14 -0400 I'm sure some PRR R50 reefers ran behind these engines. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Frank Hom [mailto:b.hom@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:04 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units Barry Peltier wrote: Folks, Yessir, aside from the forementioned units, Santa Fe also had a few E units, at least one of which was a rebuild from an old box cab passenger unit, if I recall. Other roads using passenger F's would include the Rock Island, B&M, NP, GM&O, SP&S, B&O, Erie, GN, CGW and Monon. I'm sure there's others, but those lines came to mind right off. So what's all of this got to do with the Pennsy? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:43:21 +0000 Well said! Norm Bell > Jerry wrote: > > "... his situation is similar to many. He has > > been on the list for years, just lurking in a corner. > > > > There are over 600 people on the list, and only 50 or so who speak up > > "regularly". > > > This is probably sacriledge on PRR-talk, but Pennsy isn't my 'first love' of > railroads. Family connections, proximity and my first railroad experiences > with the Boston & Maine put that line first in my heart. > > But PRR's mammoth multiple-track (and multiple train) Lines East mainline > operations were damned impressive, and got me hooked after a friend loaned > me "Pennsy Power II" way back when. I'm a fan of the Walter Franklin > cats-whisker era of the PRR, when the ballast on the main lines was still > being boarded and almost unbelievably perfect, and seemingly every model of > diesel under the sun ran on PRR metals. The wide-single-stripe era > represents Jim Symes and the beginning of the end of the "great" PRR, to me. > > > A real eye-opener for me were the PRR documents Bob Reid reprinted in PC > Railroader and Rails Northeast: the yard maps, interlocking diagrams, > mainline track charts, arranged freight service documents, makeup of > passenger trains documents, etc.etc. Books such as "Pennsy in the Steel > City" and "Pennsy's Golden Triangle" really put someone like me over the > edge. Gotta pick up some of those "Triumph" books before they're out of > print, too. > > I'm sitting here shaking my head, just thinking of how huge the Pennsy was, > in terms of its facilities: Altoona, Enola, Conway/Pitcairn, the great track > complexes through Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (among others) with the > separated rights of way for passenger and freight traffic, flying junctions, > entire main lines like the A&S, Trenton branch or Conemaugh division > dedicated to freight in order to reduce congestion on the mains (because > THEY were so full of trains, especially long haul passenger and commuters), > etc. There was nothing else like it, and I doubt ever will be again. > > My head is also shaking because so much of it is gone: flat green fields > around Pittsburgh where huge PRR-served steel mills used to stand, rights of > way like the A&S lying fallow and unused, Enola a mere shadow of itself, > enormous shops like Sam Rea at Hollidaysburg being closed, etc. Such is > progress, I guess, and progress sometimes sucks. > > I enjoy reading some of the postings on this list. Some of the discourse > gets over the top for me, or is about aspects of the PRR that I find less > than interesting, but that's what the 'delete' button is for on my email > client. > > The RPI club's John Nehrich also put it well (and I'll paraphrase): "If you > model American standard gauge railroading in the 1950's, you're a Pennsy > modeler." It's good to hear about new releases of PRR models on PRR-talk. > Unfortunately, I'm in a hobby shop desert around here, the closest ones are > an hour's drive in either direction. And, neither of them carry Bowser > products. :^( Thus, my B&M/MEC layout is woefully unrepresentative of PRR > cars in the numbers it should have, in terms of relatively *accurate* cars. > I guess I need to start buying on ebay or via mail order, but I really > prefer to see what I'm buying in person, been burned several times on the > mail order route. > > I also don't have the pockets deep enough nor the time to shell out $20+ > each for an Intermountain X29 kit. I have enough 'skill required' no > trucks/no couplers/no paint/no time kits on the workshop shelves for my New > England models, that I probably won't be able to tackle until I retire. The > Walthers Trainline RTR version of the X29 is more my speed/budget, at the > moment. I can live with the 'claws' on the doors, all my Athearn/MDC box > cars have them, too. Just wish Walthers had done up their PRR version in > something even CLOSE to freight car color, the tuscan red they put on it > looks a bit ridiculous, to me anyway. > > Anybody have any recommendations for a good approach to assemble a > representative fleet of late 50's PRR freight cars in HO, on a limited > budget/skill set, i.e. more along the lines of shake the box types of cars > than craftsman kits? "Bowser" seems the logical answer, but which cars were > most prevalent in interchange service? For instance, try as I might, I > haven't seen a lot of photos of PRR hoppers in New England, at least in my > modeling era of 1955-1960. Boxcars, gondolas and flat cars seem more > prevalent, in the photos I've been perusing. > > Anyhoo, $.02 from one of the "silent majority" of 550 on this list. > > Doug Drew > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: johncoop@ix.netcom.com Subject: [PRR] Layout Progress - Philadelphia Terminal Our listmeister has kindly uploaded some new pictures of my layout to his website. Thanks Jerry. The new pictures are of the 2nd reassembly of the Philadelphia Terminal after my most recent move. Things are still in the plywood stage so it takes some imagination, but I've also included some prototype photos to show where it's headed. Currently I have one track laid to the eastern limits of Zoo. It's at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/cooper/cooper.htm John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:55:55 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re:[PRR] Es vs Fs > All HO gaugers knew that. The classic Athearn F unit has the steam > generator. > On of the long time requirement of PRR fans was to remove all that roof > hardware in the rear before repainting the F unit. It wasn't until the > recent > spate of highly detailed, road-accurate F units that this requirement went > away. And how well I remember the magical day that I discovered the softmetal casting by Detail Associates of a Passenger Pilot for an Athearn F in the bowels of my hobby shop's details drawer!? Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Buff vs. gold Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:24:33 +0000 I sent Andy Cich's comments to my brother who knows Steve Stewart personnaly and this is the response I got. This certainly muddies the water: I passed on your email to Steve Stewart. He replied, saying that this is not a new controversy re. PRR diesels regardless of model. He has photographs of shifters and other diesels as well as photocopies of documents from the Altoona shops with specs for both gold and buff paint. The concensus here is that both were used at various times and without any rhyme or reason as to its application to various models. The GG1s, of course, got gold for much of their careers, but in the 1960's, many of them received buff paint. According to the documentation, lines west were more likely to be buff, while lines east often had gold paint. From a marketing standpoint, surveys by Stewart Hobbies has shown that potential purchasers prefer gold which is why he uses gold. One photo in Stewart's collection shows two Baldwins end-to-end at Wilmington, DE in good light. One unit is buff and the other, which is freshly painted, clearly is shiny gold. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:31:11 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Progress - Philadelphia Terminal Great photos and a great layout, John. Jerry, the " click thumbnail" feature doesn't seem to work. I am dieing to see these shots in full size. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== johncoop@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Our listmeister has kindly uploaded some new pictures of my layout to his website. Thanks Jerry. > > The new pictures are of the 2nd reassembly of the Philadelphia Terminal after my most recent move. Things are still in the plywood stage so it takes some imagination, but I've also included some prototype photos to show where it's headed. Currently I have one track laid to the eastern limits of Zoo. It's at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/cooper/cooper.htm > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:42:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Progress - Philadelphia Terminal From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/03 2:31 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Great photos and a great layout, John. Jerry, the " click thumbnail" feature > doesn't seem to work. I am dieing to see these shots in full size. > Not my issue! John scripted something that is unique to his layout site. I didn't write the code. It does work on my system (MacOS 10.2 w/ Explorer). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:02:37 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Progress - Philadelphia Terminal Jerry/Andrew: It also works on the newest Netscape (7.02) and MIE (6.028) under Windows XP, just not the way I first thought... You click on the small photos at the left and they appear in the place where it says "click on thumbnail" at the right. Clicking on the right doesn't do anything. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:19:21 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Lest this point cause confusion, a steam generator in an F unit did not make an FP unit. The FP7 was about 4 feet longer than an F, even an F with a steam generator. An F unit, with or without steam generator, had one standard length. The purpose for the FP was increased boiler water capacity over an F unit, evidenced by the large crosswise tank below the carbody ahead of the fuel tank and battery boxes. BTW, my understanding is that the only PRR Five-stripe Tuscan F's were the FP's. Any five-stripe F's that were not FP's were DGLE, not Tuscan. I am not giving the PRR class designations here because I can't do them from memory and don't want to give incorrect nomenclature. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: [PRR] re PRR G5 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:33:03 +0100 List, I can recall at some time seeing a picture of a PRR (not LIRR) G5 attached to a K4 tender. For the life of me I cannot find it now. Can anyone on the list help me out by reminding me of the location. I have the opportunity of a Westside Model Co; G5, but with this tender decaled for the PRR. Anyone have any views on this company's model? Thanks in anticipation. James. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... Doug I believe many of us have multiple railroad interests. While my primary interest is the Pennsylvania, I certainly appreciate the B&M, MEC, NH, and B&A having lived a total of 25 years or so in Waterville, ME, the Worcester, Mass. area, and Concord, NH. Then again, a number of people think I'm an hopeless heretic as I also like European locomotives and passenger equipment. Actually, with all the recent talk concerning corporate control of smaller railraods, I probably should have said my primary interest is the P C C & St. Louis and its predecessors, the Pittsburgh & Steubenville, et. al.---seems the Pennsylvania Railroad simply operated its equipment over these lines! Ron P.S. Gary's locomotive is a beauty. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:46:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 aurora7@juno.com wrote: > Good Lord! It isn't a question of F's vs E's. It's FA's vs PA's! 4 axles versus 6. > Complicate it further by adding C-Liners vs Erie-Builts. If you ignore the versions sold to other railroads, also 4 axles versus 6. > F's vs E's. Puuulease! It's all so easy, if you just think to look down;-) (I know, it's cheating, and it glosses over a lot of the more interesting details) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:47:13 -0400 Everybody, Just belongong to the list as previously stated by others is a great resourse. I am fortunate that my father, Ivan Frantz, is knowledgable in most topics. The answer that i can't get from him i attempt to get from either the PRRT&HS Discussion web or on here. To regularly recieve the e-mail from the list is enough to help some people discern differences and recieve answers without asking a question. The may be 550 members that do not talk, but they don't have to talk to get the answers they want. Well, since i'm on my soap box, i might as well ask a PRR quetion. lol. Would anybody know where i could find the roster numbers for NX-23 class cabin cars before they were converted to mow service. I would specifically like to know for the Chesapeke region of the Maryland Division. I have already looked through Jerry's site as well as issues of the Keystone. Happy Rails John Frantz PRRT&HS 7237 Crew for the 'Operators' Yardmaster for York Connecting Railroad of the Miniature Railroad Club of York: Celebrating 60 Years of Model Railroading in York, Pennsylvania 1943-2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:11:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units In a message dated 4/14/03 10:16:38 AM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Other roads using passenger F's would include the Rock Island, B&M, NP, GM&O, SP&S, B&O, Erie, GN, CGW and Monon. I'm sure there's others, but those lines came to mind right off. >> Rio Grande, IIRC. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lurkers.... Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:21:07 +0000 Young John Frantz' comments are pertinent. There are many of us out here who are getting an education just by reading the chat. Having never been a railroad employee, much of the items of interest that appear are revelations to the uninitiate. I've joined in occasionally, both with comment and with questions. I have never been disappointed by the responses received. The other night my wife asked me if I wanted to go to the movies. I declined, telling her that the chat on PRRT&HS was better than any movie I could imagine. Keep up the great show and tell ! -HANK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:23:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... In a message dated 4/14/03 2:47:03 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << I believe many of us have multiple railroad interests. While my primary interest is the Pennsylvania, I certainly appreciate the B&M, MEC, NH, and B&A having lived a total of 25 years or so in Waterville, ME, the Worcester, Mass. area, and Concord, NH. Then again, a number of people think I'm an hopeless heretic as I also like European locomotives and passenger equipment. >> Fantastic! One of my best PRR recollections was from Canton, Ohio. My wife and I went to her room mates wedding. I remember seeing two purple and yellow locomotives (EMDs, bride & groom?) that the Pennsy had leased from the Bangor & Aroostock Railroad (BAR?). They were bright and gleaming and must have been brand new. When I asked at the office, someone told me that we frequently leased engines from railroads in Maine. Maine needed them in the winter to move logs and log trains around and in the summer leased them out to other railroads. Does the BAR still exist? Are the engines still painted that gaudy color scheme? Regards, Marty PS: I may be dating myself, but, I applied to attend only two colleges. Boudwin (sp?) in Waterville was one of them. It was the first year that the school moved to the new campus (1955?). My mother and I went up there in the dead of winter. It was so desolate and cold that I refused to go there, even though my mother (at the time) had family in Belfast and Machias. I went to Wharton, instead. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:28:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... In a message dated 4/14/03 2:47:03 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << I believe many of us have multiple railroad interests. While my primary interest is the Pennsylvania, I certainly appreciate the B&M, MEC, NH, and B&A having lived a total of 25 years or so in Waterville, ME, the Worcester, Mass. area, and Concord, NH. Then again, a number of people think I'm an hopeless heretic as I also like European locomotives and passenger equipment. >> Fantastic! One of my best PRR recollections was from Canton, Ohio. My wife and I went to her room mates wedding. I remember seeing two purple and yellow locomotives (EMDs, bride & groom?) that the Pennsy had leased from the Bangor & Aroostock Railroad (BAR?). They were bright and gleaming and must have been brand new. When I asked at the office, someone told me that we frequently leased engines from railroads in Maine. Maine needed them in the winter to move logs and log trains around and in the summer leased them out to other railroads. Does the BAR still exist? Are the engines still painted that gaudy color scheme? Regards, Marty PS: I may be dating myself, but, I applied to attend only two colleges. Boudwin (sp?) in Waterville was one of them. It was the first year that the school moved to the new campus (1955?). My mother and I went up there in the dead of winter. It was so desolate and cold that I refused to go there, even though my mother (at the time) had family in Belfast and Machias. I went to Wharton, instead, and, from Wharton to the Pennsy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:57:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... Marty wrote, in part: "Fantastic! One of my best PRR recollections was from Canton, Ohio. My wife and I went to her room mates wedding. I remember seeing two purple and yellow locomotives (EMDs, bride & groom?) that the Pennsy had leased from the Bangor & Aroostock Railroad (BAR?). They were bright and gleaming and must have been brand new." ------- Greetings Marty, What year did that wedding take place? BAR's geeps used to be blue/grey/yellow and were later solid blue with yellow trimming. (One of these units still resides a few miles from where I'm sitting, behind a terminal lines roundhouse, by the way). These units were actually jointly owned between the BAR and Pennsy, with their usage rotating between the owning carriers seasonal, as you mentioned. If you'd like further details on this ownership arrangement, please let me know. I can dig it out of a BAR book sitting around here. It was an unusual agreement, to be sure. Aside from that, I think a lot of us have interest and affection for lines besides the Pennsy. Much as I love the old home town road, I'm afraid I just can't be monogomous about railroads. Too many other beautiful ones out there I'm afraid. I guess that's why some of us model Union Stations. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:39:48 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! Easy for you to say Jerry , I opened my big mouth last week about the ( Dining Car story ) Which I later read , and enjoyed by the way , and got my lunch handed to me . Ha-Ha !! I'm sure you're right , that many good questions and stories , are out there waiting to be heard . So send them in . Just last year I told a guy the best spot to see the Ohio Connecting Bridge , here in Pittsburgh , he later said it was a good spot . So you see even new guys can help sometimes . I'm still trying to tell the difference between E and F EMD units . That will give a lot of you a big laugh but I'll bet someone else is just like me . So send in your cards and letters all you "Lurkers" out there . There are no dumb questions , only a few dopes who think they are smarter than everyone else, the rest are Gentleman one and all Capt vinnie "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > At the Northern Central Chapter meeting today I was speaking with an > acquaintance of several years who is also a subscriber to the PRR-talk > list. > > His name isn't important, but his situation is similar to many. He has > been on the list for years, just lurking in a corner. > > There are over 600 people on the list, and only 50 or so who speak up > "regularly". This is okay, but I bet a lot of those other folks are > intimidated and afraid to speak up. Don't be!!! > > If you have a valid PRR question, ask it!!! > > I've had a pool of questions that have gone unanswered for years. That > happens! But I typically re-ask them and re-word them every six months > or so. That either generates a new response or better understanding of > my question and pieces slowly fall into place. (Such was the case with > the recent Cresson roundhouse thread.) > > So, come out of the shadows and speak up! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wide Stripe Passenger paint scheme Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:02:22 -0400 An excerpt from a PRR Motive Power department memo dated May 4, 1956 recapping some locomotive painting information, under the heading Diesel-electric Locomotives: "On 11/22/55 two units, Nos. 5713A and 5892A were painted in accordance with Tracing B-456310A showing an 8" wide band painting scheme on Tuscan Red background. These units are experimental and awaiting decision as to whether the painting scheme will be made standard." These were both class EP-22, E8A's. Sounds like Steve & Paul Withers have it right. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Hoxie To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers! > Jerry wrote-- > > > > The E's were used in passenger service and the F's in freight service. > > As such, the F units were painted Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) > > with one narrow stripe. The E units were originally DGLE, with five > > narrow stripes, but as of 1952 were painted in Tuscan Red, still with > > five narrow stripes. In 1954 the five stripes was replaced by one broad > > stripe. > > > Here you are trying to encourage folks to speak up--a good thing--and I have > to risk seeming "smarter than everyone else". It ain't so; I am just > reading it from a book. According to Withers Vol. 7, p. 473, the single > broad stripe came into being in August of 1956. This should make a > difference to both of us modeling in 1954. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:44:38 -0500 Hi Doug--Absolutely model to whatever level of detail you like! But if your shop is trying to sell you a "Intermountain (should be Red Caboose) X29 kit for $20+", then run, don't walk, out the door. Red Caboose lists decorated kits for $16.95; I know you can find them cheaper. They aren't quite shake the box, but everything is there. Also you might be interested to know that Red Caboose in the near future is doing an MEC paint scheme on their ARA style X29. As far as reliable mail order, Jerry's Merchadise Service has provided impeccable service. You can't go wrong there. Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:01:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) While we are on the subject "passenger pilots" comes up frequently. This is probably a useful shorthand which communicates what people mean and understand (sort of like Brunswick Green to the rest of the model rr world). However, I don't believe it is an official term for anything. Pennsy used pilots with coupler covers on many first generation diesels, freight and passenger. I'm open to being proven totally wrong on this, so fire away if you have documentation to the contrary. Or if you have another documented official term for the pilots in question which would be useful, say, in parts catalogs. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:21:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/03 11:44 PM, "Steve Hoxie" wrote: > Hi Doug--Absolutely model to whatever level of detail you like! But if your > shop is trying to sell you a "Intermountain (should be Red Caboose) X29 kit > for $20+", then run, don't walk, out the door. Red Caboose lists decorated > kits for $16.95; I know you can find them cheaper. They aren't quite shake > the box, but everything is there. Also you might be interested to know that > Red Caboose in the near future is doing an MEC paint scheme on their ARA > style X29. Sounds like (I hope) he was quoted on one of the newer ready-to-run cars, and not a kit. > > As far as reliable mail order, Jerry's Merchadise Service has provided > impeccable service. You can't go wrong there. > Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:26:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/03 7:57 PM, "BPX29@aol.com" wrote: > Greetings Marty, > What year did that wedding take place? BAR's geeps used to be > blue/grey/yellow and were later solid blue with yellow trimming. (One of > these units still resides a few miles from where I'm sitting, behind a > terminal lines roundhouse, by the way). > These units were actually jointly owned between the BAR and Pennsy, with > their usage rotating between the owning carriers seasonal, as you mentioned. The units were owned by the BAR and leased by the PRR for six months of the year. First GP7's, then GP9's. The BAR used them for hauling potatos. When it wasn't potato season, they didn't need them. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 04:37:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR G5s with LIRR 110P82 tender James, Are you thinking of PRR G5s 5741? In October 1955, she was leased briefly to the nearly-dieselized LIRR and coupled to a 110P82 normally used with the LIRR's G5s engines. This looks similar to the 110P70 used by non-stoker fired K4s engines in the 20s and 30s. There's a picture in Ron Ziel's book Long Island Heritage. While out of print, it's readily available at shows, and you may be able to get a copy through interlibrary loan. Reunited with a more typical PRR G5s tender, the 5741 now resides in the RR Museum of PA. Doug --- James Lucas wrote, in part: > List, > > I can recall at some time seeing a picture of a PRR > (not LIRR) G5 attached > to a K4 tender. > > For the life of me I cannot find it now. Can anyone > on the list help me out > by reminding me of the location. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:03:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) In a message dated 4/15/03 12:10:52 AM, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << While we are on the subject "passenger pilots" comes up frequently. This is probably a useful shorthand which communicates what people mean and understand (sort of like Brunswick Green to the rest of the model rr world). However, I don't believe it is an official term for anything. Pennsy used pilots with coupler covers on many first generation diesels, freight and passenger. >> Maybe, we are using the same word to cover several things, but there definitely was something called "pilot service" written into the collective bargaining agreements for the engineers. It was basically training a new man. Someone with "qualifications" had to ride with a newly promoted man, in either passenger or freight service [road service, and maybe, yard service, as well] the first time the new man had the seniority to hold a job on a new piece of track. He would put in a time card making a pay claim for "pilot service." It was one of those terms that was used on the railroad before it was used on the airlines. Any other old Pennsy labor skates on this list? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] PRR HO brass locos for sale Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:26:12 -0700 Hello, I have a couple of HO brass PRR locomotives I would like to list for sale. 1. Gem E6s, painted as #460 (needs oxide red cab roof and tender deck) $275.00 2. Red Ball K4s, unpainted. In Reboxx box. This is a model of the 5497 (with an etched number plate), and is modeled with the cast frame as applied to the last 5 locomotives built. $275.00 Both of these are excellent runners. Shipping is extra. Please contact me off list if you are interested in these. Thanks, Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:59:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR G5s with LIRR 110P82 tender From: aurora7@juno.com Just an interesting side note is that quite a few of the locos at the RRMof Pa served on the LIRR during some portion of their service life. This includes the K4, the E6, and the G5. LIRR fans are terribly proud of that. IF you are a PRR steam fan and you are not following the two LIRR groups, restoring the LIRR G5's, this season is a good time to get over there and get involved. Lots of PRR design equipment at those sights. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I think crime pays. The hours are good and you travel a lot." - Woody Allen ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Starsburg #7002 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:24:55 +0000 What class is #7002. I am thinking E3 but need to confirm. thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] NX-23 Assignments Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:31:56 -0400 Gents, What i found through keystone so afr is just the road number lot. I surfed through jerry's site again and saw that there was at leastone that was used on the Chesapeake Region. It was stationed out of Colgate Creek. I know this is a small creek in southern baltimore but does anybody have an idea of what subdivision of Railroad this was on? (ie:B&P, Union RR, etc.) The number was 478564. If there is any other information it would be appreciated. I'm planning on painting this in the 1944 era scheme in regular service before being assigned to MOW. Happy Rails, John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:33:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Starsburg #7002 From: Jerry Britton On 4/15/03 12:24 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > What class is #7002. I am thinking E3 but need to confirm. thanks > According to the searchable database on Keystone Crossings, it was an E2a. However, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania reports it as follows: Pennsylvania Railroad No. 7002 Juniata 4-4-2. PRR class E7s. 1902. Gift 12/1979 of Penn Central Corp. Represents world's record speed holder (127.1 mph) in 1905; originally No. 8063. (1st) No. 7002 scrapped in 1934. Last operated 1/20/1989. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:45:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] NX-23 Assignments From: Jerry Britton On 4/15/03 12:31 PM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > What i found through keystone so afr is just the road > number lot. I surfed through jerry's site again and saw > that there was at leastone that was used on the Chesapeake > Region. It was stationed out of Colgate Creek. I know this > is a small creek in southern baltimore but does anybody > have an idea of what subdivision of Railroad this was on? > (ie:B&P, Union RR, etc.) Yup! Checked the Maryland Division ETT from 1954 (on the "PRR in 1954" CD-ROM). No hits on the station list, meaning it was not a block station, interlocking, etc. So I went to the CT1000E from 1945. Sure enough, there it is, on page 109 under the Maryland Division. Colgate Creek is 6.2 miles from Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station. It is at the junction of the Union Railroad and the P.B.&W. R.R. Sparrow's Point Branch. The CT1000E shows this location as being on the Sparrow's Point Branch with the following at the same location, named "CI": Jct. Union R.R. Jct. B.&O. R.R. Federal Yeast Co. Yard ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:05:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Division Accounting Maps From: Jerry Britton Anyone have a set of Division Accounting Maps as of the 1951 reorg? The 1941 maps are online at Keystone Crossings, and I now have a set as of the 1956 reorg (9 regions) that I'll scan and post, but I'd really like to borrow a set of the maps for the 1951-1955 era. Anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Division Accounting Maps --- Jerry Britton wrote: > The 1941 maps are online at Keystone Crossings, and I now have a > set as of > the 1956 reorg (9 regions) that I'll scan and post, but I'd really > like to > borrow a set of the maps for the 1951-1955 era. On a related topic, your site mentions a hope to post some 1920's maps. Any news on that front or has it fallen through? Inquiring minds, you know. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:57:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Z74 Business Cars This is ultimately a prototype question although it relates to modeling so I have sent it to both lists. According to what I have read, the Bachmann "observation" car is supposedly a Pennsy Z74c business car. However, I cannot find plans/photographs to confirm this. >From what I can see, the left side of the Bachmann car is similar to Pennsy car number 180, "Philadelphia", with the exception of one window. The right hand side of the car has a window arrangement identical to car 7507, "Pennsylvania", in the 1913 pre-modernization version, a Z74d. To make the car an accurate model of either prototype will require considerable alteration to the windows on the opposite side. The interior appears to be a fantasy. My questions are: 1. Was there ever a Pennsy business car numbered 140 and if so, what was the class, window arrangement etc? 2. What determined the Pennsy class number of a business car? It evidently wasn't the window arrangement/interior floor plan, as there appear to be cars with the same class number that have different window/interior arrangements. 3. While some business cars were evidently assigned to specific individuals or positions, i.e., the President of the Railroad, what other criteria determined to whom, when, and why a pool service business car would be assigned? Thanks in advance for your help. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy Z74 Business Cars This is ultimately a prototype question although it relates to modeling so I have sent it to both lists. According to what I have read, the Bachmann "observation" car is supposedly a Pennsy Z74c business car. However, I cannot find plans/photographs to confirm this. >From what I can see, the left side of the Bachmann car is similar to Pennsy car number 180, "Philadelphia", with the exception of one window. The right hand side of the car has a window arrangement identical to car 7507, "Pennsylvania", in the 1913 pre-modernization version, a Z74d. To make the car an accurate model of either prototype will require considerable alteration to the windows on the opposite side. The interior appears to be a fantasy. My questions are: 1. Was there ever a Pennsy business car numbered 140 and if so, what was the class, window arrangement etc? 2. What determined the Pennsy class number of a business car? It evidently wasn't the window arrangement/interior floor plan, as there appear to be cars with the same class number that have different window/interior arrangements. 3. While some business cars were evidently assigned to specific individuals or positions, i.e., the President of the Railroad, what other criteria determined to whom, when, and why a pool service business car would be assigned? Thanks in advance for your help. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:00:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Division Accounting Maps From: Jerry Britton On 4/15/03 1:48 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > --- Jerry Britton wrote: > >> The 1941 maps are online at Keystone Crossings, and I now have a >> set as of >> the 1956 reorg (9 regions) that I'll scan and post, but I'd really >> like to >> borrow a set of the maps for the 1951-1955 era. > > On a related topic, your site mentions a hope to post some 1920's > maps. Any news on that front or has it fallen through? > > Inquiring minds, you know. > I'll need to dig through my e-mails of folks offering to send me stuff to see who it was. I'll be happy to post if it is provided. With the 1954 CD finally done, my time is freed up somewhat. Randy Williamson sent me some track charts several years ago that were backburnered. I'm feverishly working to finish them. When they are done, then there's all sorts of stuff to do in all categories. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:17:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... > Boudwin (sp?) in Waterville was one of them. It was > the first year that the > school moved to the new campus (1955?). A bit off topic but I feel compelled to respond: Waterville, Maine is the home of Colby College, my alma mater, which did move to a new campus on Mayflower Hill in the 50's. Arch-rival Bowdoin is in Brunswick, Maine. Maine winters are equally as bad in either place. And they still close down the schools in Aroostook county during the potato harvest. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:38:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A post from one of the silent lurking majority... In a message dated 4/15/03 1:17:26 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << A bit off topic but I feel compelled to respond: Waterville, Maine is the home of Colby College, my alma mater, which did move to a new campus on Mayflower Hill in the 50's. Arch-rival Bowdoin is in Brunswick, Maine. Maine winters are equally as bad in either place. And they still close down the schools in Aroostook county during the potato harvest. Ron >> Sorry, Ron. You are absolutely correct. It was Colby College, not Bowdoin. I remember that it was sooo cold and desolate. The landscaping on the campus was meager and there was a grey, chilling rain. I've said many times that college selection was one of my first examples of failing to build into a plan sufficient alternatives and then being forced to accept a default. In the case of my college selection, I wound up at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia and, as a direct result of attending Penn, began working for the Pennsy two weeks after graduation. The Pennsy sent me to Buffalo where it was also very cold. Thanks for the correction. Best regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:50:32 -0400 From: Mark Kerlick Subject: [PRR] Ebay stuff http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=3126960841 Nice model very well painted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:01:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ebay stuff From: Listmaster On 4/15/03 2:50 PM, Mark Kerlick (markkerlick@att.net) wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=3126960841 > Nice model very well painted > Please be advised that the individual that made the above post IS THE SELLER of the item. The ad is "fair game" as this is the 15th of the month, but the fact that he is the seller should perhaps have been disclosed. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Z74 Business Cars Ron........ According to the list I have from the May,1977 issue of Rails Northeast, there was no "140" business car. But the business car fleet was always being upgraded. Also the names of the cars were change from time to time. Plans for the Z74C class can be found in "Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Photo and Plan Book" Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:56:01 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] BAR Units THE BANGOR AND AROOSTOOK UNITS The PRR was no stranger to leasing motive power in times of need. It was such a need for seasonal power and a desire to not perform costly repairs on its retiring steam fleet that led to a special arrangement with the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad (BAR). The BAR was looking to complete its dieselization with twelve new units. However, with a highly seasonal traffic flow of essentially potatoes between November and May, the BAR had difficulty justifying the capital expense. An agreement was made with the PRR, who needed power during its seasonal ore flow, which occurred between May and November, to lease ten of the BAR units for a period of seven years. The Board approved a contract on June 28, 1950, to take effect on May 5, 1951, to lease ten BAR GP-7 road switchers. These units were originally confined to operations at the Erie coal and ore docks. In later years, when the Erie traffic diminished and additional units were leased, the "Bangors," as the PRR crews referred to them as, turned up at Cleveland and Ashtabula. A further agreement to use additional power between May and November allowed the BAR to acquire five additional GP-9 units, thus completely dieselizing their system, even during the winter potato rush. The September 1957 M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives showed 10 BAR class ES15m (GP-7) units numbers 64, 66-68 and 70-75, as well as five class BAR EFS17m (GP-9) units numbered 76-80 on the property. This seasonal use of BAR units at the docks continued until the PC merger. The original units were gray-blue and silver w/ yellow numbers and stripes, they were later painted all blue w/ yellow numbers. >From the E&P book. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:55:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BAR Units From: aurora7@juno.com Just for the record, three of the GP-9's are still in existence, about three miles from where I live. None are operable, several are severely damaged by collisions and cannibalizing. BAR management has seen fit to save one BL-2, now indoors in a local museum, and one F-3, still stored serviceable in the Derby shops. If photos were allowed on the news letter, I'd send along several from this winter. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I think crime pays. The hours are good and you travel a lot." - Woody Allen ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (pilots) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:49:07 -0400 Bob, From an EMD parts catalog from 1954, they used the terms "enclosed coupler pilot" and "exposed coupler pilot" for what modelers and railfans have called "passenger" and "freight" pilots, respectively. The enclosed coupler pilots were included in the base price of the E-units, while they were an additional charge as optional equipment on the F's. Many railroads bought them with the "stock" pilots and so the modeler names probably resulted from the facts that the E's usually were used in passenger service and the F's more so in freight service. The moving parts were called pilot doors or coupler covers. Jack Consoli > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:01 AM > Subject: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) > > > > While we are on the subject "passenger pilots" comes up frequently. This > is > > probably a useful shorthand which communicates what people mean and > > understand (sort of like Brunswick Green to the rest of the model rr > world). > > However, I don't believe it is an official term for anything. Pennsy used > > pilots with coupler covers on many first generation diesels, freight and > > passenger. > > > > I'm open to being proven totally wrong on this, so fire away if you have > > documentation to the contrary. Or if you have another documented official > > term for the pilots in question which would be useful, say, in parts > catalogs. > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (pilots) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:09:00 -0400 Gents, From what i've known the 'covered coupler' pilots were found on both frieght and passenger units. My father recently finished a Hobbytown A-B-A lashup of F's in PRR Freight scheme. He put the 'clamshells' on the front to give something close to an 'as delivered' look. EMD produced E's and F's with the clamshells. PRR ordered some of these, but they were later removed due to maintenence costs and other contributing factors. I'm attempting to clear up a few points of confusion, though i porbably threw another wrench into the works. Either way, Happy Rails all, -John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:12:53 -0400 Bob: OK, so what do people mean when they say "Passenger pilot"? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:01 AM Subject: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) > While we are on the subject "passenger pilots" comes up frequently. This is > probably a useful shorthand which communicates what people mean and > understand (sort of like Brunswick Green to the rest of the model rr world). > However, I don't believe it is an official term for anything. Pennsy used > pilots with coupler covers on many first generation diesels, freight and > passenger. > > I'm open to being proven totally wrong on this, so fire away if you have > documentation to the contrary. Or if you have another documented official > term for the pilots in question which would be useful, say, in parts catalogs. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR G5s with LIRR 110P82 tender Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:16:06 -0400 Friends: I believe this engine is on display at the Carriage Museum in Stony Book, Long Island. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "James Lucas" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR G5s with LIRR 110P82 tender > James, > > Are you thinking of PRR G5s 5741? In October 1955, > she was leased briefly to the nearly-dieselized LIRR > and coupled to a 110P82 normally used with the LIRR's > G5s engines. This looks similar to the 110P70 used by > non-stoker fired K4s engines in the 20s and 30s. > There's a picture in Ron Ziel's book Long Island > Heritage. While out of print, it's readily available > at shows, and you may be able to get a copy through > interlibrary loan. > > Reunited with a more typical PRR G5s tender, the 5741 > now resides in the RR Museum of PA. > > Doug > > > --- James Lucas wrote, in > part: > > List, > > > > I can recall at some time seeing a picture of a PRR > > (not LIRR) G5 attached > > to a K4 tender. > > > > For the life of me I cannot find it now. Can anyone > > on the list help me out > > by reminding me of the location. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo > http://search.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:22:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Ebay stuff On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Listmaster wrote: > On 4/15/03 2:50 PM, Mark Kerlick (markkerlick@att.net) wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=3126960841 > > Nice model very well painted > > > Please be advised that the individual that made the above post IS THE SELLER > of the item. > > The ad is "fair game" as this is the 15th of the month, but the fact that he > is the seller should perhaps have been disclosed. It might also be nice if the lister noted what was for sale! (so I could tell if it was worth my time...mow its just a delete!) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:25:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) In a message dated 4/15/03 8:17:55 PM Central Daylight Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: << OK, so what do people mean when they say "Passenger pilot"? >> As Jack Consoli explained : From an EMD parts catalog from 1954, they used the terms "enclosed coupler pilot" and "exposed coupler pilot" for what modelers and railfans have called "passenger" and "freight" pilots, respectively. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one of the Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:18:12 -0400 Doug Drew asked: "Anybody have any recommendations for a good approach to assemble a representative fleet of late 50's PRR freight cars in HO, on a limited budget/skill set, i.e. more along the lines of shake the box types of cars than craftsman kits? "Bowser" seems the logical answer, but which cars were most prevalent in interchange service? For instance, try as I might, I haven't seen a lot of photos of PRR hoppers in New England, at least in my modeling era of 1955-1960. Boxcars, gondolas and flat cars seem more prevalent, in the photos I've been perusing." It just so happens that I'm working on a "Balancing the Model Boxcar Fleet" article for RMC. Here are some thoughts on building a fleet for your layout: The prevalent foreign road car type found on any North American railroad during the 1940s and 1950s was the general service boxcar. During this timeframe, anything that could fit through the door of a boxcar was shipped in one. Also, a nationwide shortage of boxcars persisted during the 1940s and 1950s due to several factors including: - A slowdown of new car construction during the 1930s; - Limited construction of new freight cars during WWII; - Cars built 1910-1929 remaining in service without replacement; - Heavy wear and tear on equipment due to WWII traffic demands, and - Post-war car order demand far exceeding plant capacity of freight car builders. The net result is that general service boxcars can be considered to be in an ad hoc "national pool" during this period, where you can expect general service boxcars from any road to appear on any given railroad. Data compiled by Tim Gilbert and Dave Nelson from various sources including conductor's notebooks suggests a mix of approximately 20-30% home road boxcars with the remainder corresponding to the proportions of the national fleet. For example, the top ten railroad boxcar fleets at the end of 1947 were: PRR - 10.8% NYC - 9.3% ATSF - 4.9% B&O - 4.7% MILW - 4.3% IC - 4.0% MP - 4.0% SP - 3.8% RI - 3.8% GN - 3.3% Keep in mind that these are the overall averages, and that every train will not be an "average" train, just as every neighborhood in a town doesn't exactly represent national demographics. Still, two facts bear out concerning general service boxcars: Peacock's Theorem (after Frank Peacock, the first researcher to note this fact): If you model (fill in the blank) railroad, you model the Pennsy. Hom's Corollary: If you model the Pennsy, you model everyone else. OK, back to Doug's original question - which PRR cars will I need? During my sophomore year at RPI in 1986, I ran some numbers from the 1949 ORER and came up with the top five Pennsy general service boxcars: X29, 25967 cars, 38.7% of the PRR XM fleet X31A, 7207 cars, 10.7% X26, 6622 cars, 9.9% X25, 6420 cars, 9.6% X28A, 4477 cars, 6.7% Numbers 3-5 changed as the 1950s went on as new boxcars were delivered, replacing the numerically smaller older classes (X23, X25) and the Class X26 USRA cars were rebuilt into Class X26C steel boxcars. However, large numbers of Class X29 and X31A remained in service through the 1950s, so you won't go wrong by including these on your 1955-1960 B&M/MEC layout. A couple suggestions to make your shake-the-box kits look better when they sit next to your "'skill required' no trucks/no couplers/no paint/no time kits on the workshop shelves for your New England models." Walthers "Trainline" X29: - Remove the door claws. - Replace the running board with a Tichy wood running board. - Replace the stirrup steps. - Replace the brake wheel (the original one is grossly overscale giving the car a "TV Antenna"). - Replace the trucks with Bowser or Red Caboose 2D-F8 trucks. - Try a light overspray of your favorite Freight Color Mix to lighten the shade of red. The Walthers lettering is nice and sharp and will withstand this "fading" effect well. In fact, if Walthers ever gets a better shade of FCC on these cars, the lettering is accurate. If you choose to repaint, you might consider doing a couple of SK cars as you model post-1954. Bowser X31 subclasses: - The CK reporting mark fonts are incorrect, especially if the car is in the vicinity of one that has correct lettering. Carefully remove the reporting marks with an alcohol swab and reletter. - Determine if you can live with Bowser's version of Freight Car Color (the one used on the Class X32 subclasses and Class GLA hoppers is much better IMHO). If not, try a light overspray of your favorite FCC. - Otherwise, the models are very nice for shake the box kits, with thin running boards, a nice brakewheel, and a nice variety of lettering schemes. BTW, you shouldn't expect to see too many foreign road hoppers (including PRR) on the B&M as most coal to New England arrived in ports via steamer and carried inland using the B&M's own cars, which you can model using Athearn offset quads and offset twins. As for gons and flats, I'll leave them to Bruce Smith. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:27:00 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Es vs Fs (was:Come Out of the Closet, Lurkers!) I always have assumed that the terms passenger and freight pilots on EMD units referred to the pilot contours, the "passenger" pilot extending downward at an outward angle, but in a straight line, whereas the "freight" pilot had the pronounced curved section below the anti-climber. Steve Bartlett Lewis J. Matt PhD wrote: Bob: OK, so what do people mean when they say "Passenger pilot"? Lew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] G5s survivor locations Lew, list, PRR G5s 5741 is enshrined at the RR Musuem of PA. Here's the link to their roster; I don't have a way to post the photos of my various visits to her and the rest of the PRR collection. http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/motive.htm LIRR G5s 35 is undergoing restoration at Oster Bay, Long Island. http://www.lirr35.org/ LIRR G5s 39 is undergoing restoration at Riverhead, Long Island. http://www.rmli.org/ Ironic that the minor (I use the term relatively) G5s class has three surviviors and some more famous classes (like the J1 and T1) have no survivors. In any case, I'm hoping we'll see one or both of the LIRR engines in steam soon. Doug --- "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > Friends: > > I believe this engine is on display at the Carriage > Museum in Stony Book, > Long Island. > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Kisala" > To: "James Lucas" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 7:37 AM > Subject: [PRR] PRR G5s with LIRR 110P82 tender > > > > James, > > > > Are you thinking of PRR G5s 5741? In October > 1955, > > she was leased briefly to the nearly-dieselized > LIRR > > and coupled to a 110P82 normally used with the > LIRR's > > G5s engines. This looks similar to the 110P70 > used by > > non-stoker fired K4s engines in the 20s and 30s. > > There's a picture in Ron Ziel's book Long Island > > Heritage. While out of print, it's readily > available > > at shows, and you may be able to get a copy > through > > interlibrary loan. > > > > Reunited with a more typical PRR G5s tender, the > 5741 > > now resides in the RR Museum of PA. > > > > Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:40:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR 7002 is actually E7s 8063 Hello list, The engine lettered for PRR 7002 is actually E7s 8063. She was built as an E2a and rebuilt to E7s. I'm away from my reference material and can't provide exact dates for construction and conversion. Doug --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > What class is #7002. I am thinking E3 but need to > confirm. thanks __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] BAR Units Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:38:51 -0400 Ah yes, the "Bangors". I remember that each year when it came time to give the units back to the BAR, they would send an inspector down to Erie with white gloves and a magnifying glass and he would nit-pick every last little flaw that he could find on the units so that no maintenance would need to be performed on the units, whatsoever, while they were in Maine. I don't remember the reverse process being true, probably because the Pennsy was too cheap to pay the travel expenses for an inspector, and besides, the BAR owned the units. The silver painted trucks DID look a little out of context on the grimy PRR turf. WDV P.S. Speaking of travel expense accounts, I remember that the Pennsy was heavily into codes on the expense account form for explaining expenses. One travelling auditor I knew out of the (Altoona based) AAR foreign-car billing department used to put down a code "PT 10 cents". This code did double duty for a- "Pay Toilet - 10 cents" and b- "Pay Telephone - 10 cents". That way the financial department wouldn't know whether he was talking or s***ing. Just a point of trivia you probably didn't need to know about the PRR!! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 4:56 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] BAR Units THE BANGOR AND AROOSTOOK UNITS The PRR was no stranger to leasing motive power in times of need. It was such a need for seasonal power and a desire to not perform costly repairs on its retiring steam fleet that led to a special arrangement with the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad (BAR). The BAR was looking to complete its dieselization with twelve new units. However, with a highly seasonal traffic flow of essentially potatoes between November and May, the BAR had difficulty justifying the capital expense. An agreement was made with the PRR, who needed power during its seasonal ore flow, which occurred between May and November, to lease ten of the BAR units for a period of seven years. The Board approved a contract on June 28, 1950, to take effect on May 5, 1951, to lease ten BAR GP-7 road switchers. These units were originally confined to operations at the Erie coal and ore docks. In later years, when the Erie traffic diminished and additional units were leased, the "Bangors," as the PRR crews referred to them as, turned up at Cleveland and Ashtabula. A further agreement to use additional power between May and November allowed the BAR to acquire five additional GP-9 units, thus completely dieselizing their system, even during the winter potato rush. The September 1957 M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives showed 10 BAR class ES15m (GP-7) units numbers 64, 66-68 and 70-75, as well as five class BAR EFS17m (GP-9) units numbered 76-80 on the property. This seasonal use of BAR units at the docks continued until the PC merger. The original units were gray-blue and silver w/ yellow numbers and stripes, they were later painted all blue w/ yellow numbers. >From the E&P book. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:38:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BAR Units In a message dated 4/16/03 7:30:34 AM Central Daylight Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << One travelling auditor I knew out of the (Altoona based) AAR foreign-car billing department used to put down a code "PT 10 cents". This code did double duty for a- "Pay Toilet - 10 cents" >> We had a manager at work who used to put that 10 cents down on his expense reports. Guy who worked for him said he probably made money on it since he was so cheap he probably did the "limbo" under the stall door to avoid paying the 10 cents anyway. Slightly offtopic. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:53:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout >Doug Drew asked: >"Anybody have any recommendations for a good approach to assemble a >representative fleet of late 50's PRR freight cars in HO, on a limited >budget/skill set, i.e. more along the lines of shake the box types of cars >than craftsman kits? Ben replies: >OK, back to Doug's original question - which PRR cars will I need? During >my sophomore year at RPI in 1986, I ran some numbers from the 1949 ORER and >came up with the top five Pennsy general service boxcars: > >X29, 25967 cars, 38.7% of the PRR XM fleet >X31A, 7207 cars, 10.7% >X26, 6622 cars, 9.9% >X25, 6420 cars, 9.6% >X28A, 4477 cars, 6.7% >As for gons and flats, I'll leave them to Bruce Smith. Annnnnnnd heeeeereeeeees Bruce! At Jerry's request, I added 1955 to my PRR car classes page at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html Gons are a problematic area...The most common gon is the G31, followed by the G34, G31B, G29, G35, G28, G26, GRA, G32A, and the G25B. You won't recognize too many shake the box or RTR cars on that list!!! The G25B is the USRA car from Walthers, and I'm not sure of any of the others (although I think we'll find out more at the PRRT&HS meeting from one of our members!!). For my 1944 era, the GS, GR and GRA gons are still going strong, with an influx of newer cars...all from resin kits...The Bowser GS represents an "as built" pre-safety appliance car and needs modifications to resemble anything seen in the safety appliance era (let alone 1955, when they were allmost all gone) Flats are much better - the F30A was the most common and Bowser will do just fine, although the lettering is "suspect" at best. Sunshine makes a very nice F30A kit. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Car Mix Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:56:04 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C30430.AF7A1220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all! Great info! While my era is later, for a late 50's scenario, you could also add for the flats: FM - F&C and Sunshine resin kits and Railworks brass..sorry F30d - you can also do this guy from the Bowser F30a kit, although Bruce is right, the Sunshine is the bomb, and Martin is not making them anymore (yes, I am bummed, I need more) F41 - sorry, no one makes this either. no, the Walthers GSC is at best a poor stand-in. I think they came onto the PRR in ~'56, and were the PRR's second most numerous flat after that And what Bruce said goes double for gons, other than the Bowser GS, there really are no simple-to-build PRR gon kits. And the Bowser needs work... The ECW G26 can be built up into a respectable car, but there are no good decals for it (yet) But there are SO many nice resin kits, maybe you should consider it! Yes, they are a lot of work, but MUCH easier than scratchbuilding... You are lucky on the hoppers, as the H21's and GLA's from Bowser are easy, and Stewart has an H37b (I think the H39's were ~'59?) that almost fall together. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:53 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout >Doug Drew asked: >"Anybody have any recommendations for a good approach to assemble a >representative fleet of late 50's PRR freight cars in HO, on a limited >budget/skill set, i.e. more along the lines of shake the box types of cars >than craftsman kits? Ben replies: >OK, back to Doug's original question - which PRR cars will I need? During >my sophomore year at RPI in 1986, I ran some numbers from the 1949 ORER and >came up with the top five Pennsy general service boxcars: > >X29, 25967 cars, 38.7% of the PRR XM fleet >X31A, 7207 cars, 10.7% >X26, 6622 cars, 9.9% >X25, 6420 cars, 9.6% >X28A, 4477 cars, 6.7% >As for gons and flats, I'll leave them to Bruce Smith. Annnnnnnd heeeeereeeeees Bruce! At Jerry's request, I added 1955 to my PRR car classes page at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html Gons are a problematic area...The most common gon is the G31, followed by the G34, G31B, G29, G35, G28, G26, GRA, G32A, and the G25B. You won't recognize too many shake the box or RTR cars on that list!!! The G25B is the USRA car from Walthers, and I'm not sure of any of the others (although I think we'll find out more at the PRRT&HS meeting from one of our members!!). For my 1944 era, the GS, GR and GRA gons are still going strong, with an influx of newer cars...all from resin kits...The Bowser GS represents an "as built" pre-safety appliance car and needs modifications to resemble anything seen in the safety appliance era (let alone 1955, when they were allmost all gone) Flats are much better - the F30A was the most common and Bowser will do just fine, although the lettering is "suspect" at best. Sunshine makes a very nice F30A kit. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C30430.AF7A1220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Car Mix

Hi all!
Great info!
While my era is later, for a late 50's scenario, you = could also add for the flats:
FM - F&C and Sunshine resin kits and Railworks = brass..sorry
F30d - you can also do this guy from the Bowser F30a = kit, although Bruce is right, the Sunshine is the bomb, and Martin is = not making them anymore (yes, I am bummed, I need more)

F41 - sorry, no one makes this either.  no, the = Walthers GSC is at best a poor stand-in.  I think they came onto = the PRR in ~'56, and were the PRR's second most numerous flat after = that

And what Bruce said goes double for gons, other than = the Bowser GS, there really are no simple-to-build PRR gon kits.  = And the Bowser needs work...

The ECW G26 can be built up into a respectable car, = but there are no good decals for it (yet)
But there are SO many nice resin kits, maybe you = should consider it!  Yes, they are a lot of work, but MUCH easier = than scratchbuilding...

You are lucky on the hoppers, as the H21's and GLA's = from Bowser are easy, and Stewart has an H37b (I think the H39's were = ~'59?) that almost fall together.

Elden


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:53 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC = Layout


>Doug Drew asked:
>"Anybody have any recommendations for a = good approach to assemble a
>representative fleet of late 50's PRR freight = cars in HO, on a limited
>budget/skill set, i.e. more along the lines of = shake the box types of cars
>than craftsman kits?

Ben replies:
>OK, back to Doug's original question - which PRR = cars will I need?  During
>my sophomore year at RPI in 1986, I ran some = numbers from the 1949 ORER and
>came up with the top five Pennsy general service = boxcars:
>
>X29, 25967 cars, 38.7% of the PRR XM = fleet
>X31A, 7207 cars, 10.7%
>X26, 6622 cars, 9.9%
>X25, 6420 cars, 9.6%
>X28A, 4477 cars, 6.7%
>As for gons and flats, I'll leave them to Bruce = Smith.

Annnnnnnd heeeeereeeeees Bruce!

At Jerry's request, I added 1955 to my PRR car = classes page at
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/car= classes.html

Gons are a problematic area...The most common gon is = the G31, followed by
the G34, G31B, G29, G35, G28, G26, GRA, G32A, and = the G25B.  You won't
recognize too many shake the box or RTR cars on that = list!!!  The G25B is
the USRA car from Walthers, and I'm not sure of any = of the others (although
I think we'll find out more at the PRRT&HS = meeting from one of our
members!!).  For my 1944 era, the GS, GR and = GRA gons are still going
strong, with an influx of newer cars...all from = resin kits...The Bowser GS
represents an "as built" pre-safety = appliance car and needs modifications
to resemble anything seen in the safety appliance = era (let alone 1955, when
they were allmost all gone)

Flats are much better - the F30A was the most common = and Bowser will do
just fine, although the lettering is = "suspect" at best.  Sunshine makes a
very nice F30A kit.

Happy rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to = be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;    __
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   /  \
  = __<+--+>________________\__/___   = ____________________________________
 |- ______/ = O        O \_______ -| | __  = __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ = |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ = | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_____________________________\|_|______________________= ______________|
 | O--O     \0  = 0  0  0/    O--O |   = 0-0-0           &= nbsp;            = 0-0-0



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C30430.AF7A1220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Steam engine education Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:09:46 +0000 I have a picture of a K4 over my desk and was thinking about the left hand lead the PRR used which brings me to my question. Everybody knows that one of the big problems with steam was the pounding the roadbed took because of the mass of the rods. Why a 90 degree lead? Was the track width sufficient that each side had it's own dynamic vibration and independent of the other side or was there a common effect? If so wouldn't a 120-150 degree lead have helped to balance some of the pounding? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] F-30d Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:20:06 -0400 Bruce, Would you happen to know if anybody has a good model of an F30d for Truc Train service? I know Jerry is pleading for someone to make them in N scale since he needs about 60. It'salso be nice in Ho. My father has a bowser F30 thats on the backburner for converting to an F30d. Just tosing out a question. Happy Rails to all. and have a good Easter. -John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:38:00 -0400 Norm, The reason is simple. With a 90 degree lead, whenever one piston's main rod was at a position where its thrust would be directly against the axle centerline rather than the wheel rim, the other piston's main rod was at its furthest position from the axle centerline so its thrust was directed toward the wheel rim and rotation. It was the variation of the angle of the piston's thrust that caused the "dynamic augment" or rail pounding. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam engine education > I have a picture of a K4 over my desk and was thinking about the left hand lead > the PRR used which brings me to my question. Everybody knows that one of the > big problems with steam was the pounding the roadbed took because of the mass > of the rods. Why a 90 degree lead? Was the track width sufficient that each > side had it's own dynamic vibration and independent of the other side or was > there a common effect? If so wouldn't a 120-150 degree lead have helped to > balance some of the pounding? Thanks > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:53:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features --- Jerry Britton wrote: > > If I read Fred Klein's web page > (http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm) > right, the Rivarossi 12-1 > is Plan 3410B. His page reads "A detailed article > about this car, how to > convert the Rivarossi plan 3410-B car into the more > common plan 3410 and > 3410-A cars, and a list of all the roads running > them with the variations in > air conditioning types begins on page 37 of the > Railway Prototype Cyclopedia > vol. 1, and continues in vol. 2." Is there anyone > out there that has this > article that could re-write it for web publishing? > Jerry Did you ever get a response to this request? I would be very interested in seeing that conversion article. Thanks. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:58:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] F-30d From: Jerry Britton On 4/16/03 12:20 PM, "John Frantz" wrote: > Would you happen to know if anybody has a good model of an > F30d for Truc Train service? I know Jerry is pleading for > someone to make them in N scale since he needs about 60. > It'salso be nice in Ho. My father has a bowser F30 thats > on the backburner for converting to an F30d. Just tosing > out a question. Happy Rails to all. and have a good > Easter. I always assumed -- perhaps I shouldn't have -- that the Bowser F30 is close to a PRR F30. If so, that would be an excellent basis for the F30d model. I have numerous TrucTrain documents that highlight the changes, as does an article in The Keystone. Should be a fairly easy conversion in HO. N, that's another story! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:59:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features From: Jerry Britton On 4/16/03 12:53 PM, "Ronald Di Orio" wrote: > Did you ever get a response to this request? I would > be very interested in seeing that conversion article. Bruce Smith mailed me a copy of the article, but it's not something I can post. I will, at some point, summarize the spotting features online. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] F30a, F30d, F30e Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:25:55 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3043D.3CB050D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks; I'm sorry if I left anyone with the impression that the Bowser doesn't represent the F30a/F30d adequately. It is an OK model. It just doesn't look quite as good as the Sunshine F30a. Because the F30a and d were cast, they have that slighty rounded look to the webs and main assemblies. The Bowser is much more sharply cut and angular, almost like a welded assembly. They really do look fine, but if I had a choice, I'd still build a Sunshine for the cast cars. Now building a F30e from a Bowser would be a really cool way of doing that car. You'd need to get rid of the cast bolster pockets and narrow (shallow) the outer side sill, and do some other stuff, but I think someone ought to do one! The paint and lettering on the Bowser is another matter. You HAVE to repaint and reletter it. At least on the ones I bought, the lettering was SO bad. I shelved them right after they came in the mail. Brown paint? Angled letters? Yikes! I am not sure what the best lettering solution is at this point, but they wore several variations during their long tenure on the PRR (and after). After this gon thing is out of the way, I have to get back to the flats, so when I get back to that I'll let you know what I find. Best of the day, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:59 AM To: John Frantz; Bruce Smith; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] F-30d On 4/16/03 12:20 PM, "John Frantz" wrote: > Would you happen to know if anybody has a good model of an > F30d for Truc Train service? I know Jerry is pleading for > someone to make them in N scale since he needs about 60. > It'salso be nice in Ho. My father has a bowser F30 thats > on the backburner for converting to an F30d. Just tosing > out a question. Happy Rails to all. and have a good > Easter. I always assumed -- perhaps I shouldn't have -- that the Bowser F30 is close to a PRR F30. If so, that would be an excellent basis for the F30d model. I have numerous TrucTrain documents that highlight the changes, as does an article in The Keystone. Should be a fairly easy conversion in HO. N, that's another story! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3043D.3CB050D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] F30a, F30d, F30e

Folks;
        I'm sorry = if I left anyone with the impression that the Bowser doesn't represent = the F30a/F30d adequately.  It is an OK model.  It just = doesn't look quite as good as the Sunshine F30a.  Because the F30a = and d were cast, they have that slighty rounded look to the webs and = main assemblies.  The Bowser is much more sharply cut and angular, = almost like a welded assembly.  They really do look fine, but if I = had a choice, I'd still build a Sunshine for the cast cars.  Now = building a F30e from a Bowser would be a really cool way of doing that = car.  You'd need to get rid of the cast bolster pockets and narrow = (shallow) the outer side sill, and do some other stuff, but I think = someone ought to do one!

        The paint = and lettering on the Bowser is another matter.  You HAVE to = repaint and reletter it.  At least on the ones I bought, the = lettering was SO bad.  I shelved them right after they came in the = mail.  Brown paint?  Angled letters?  Yikes!  I am = not sure what the best lettering solution is at this point, but they = wore several variations during their long tenure on the PRR (and = after).  After this gon thing is out of the way, I have to get = back to the flats, so when I get back to that I'll let you know what I = find.

Best of the day,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:59 AM
To: John Frantz; Bruce Smith; PRR-Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] F-30d


On 4/16/03 12:20 PM, "John Frantz" = <johnf2384@suscom.net> wrote:

> Would you happen to know if anybody has a good = model of an
> F30d for Truc Train service? I know Jerry is = pleading for
> someone to make them in N scale since he needs = about 60.
> It'salso be nice in Ho. My father has a bowser = F30 thats
> on the backburner for converting to an F30d. = Just tosing
> out a question. Happy Rails to all. and have a = good
> Easter.


I always assumed -- perhaps I shouldn't have -- that = the Bowser F30 is close
to a PRR F30. If so, that would be an excellent = basis for the F30d model. I
have numerous TrucTrain documents that highlight the = changes, as does an
article in The Keystone.

Should be a fairly easy conversion in HO. N, that's = another story!
---------------------------------------------------------------= ------
Jerry Britton, SPF      = jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of = Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad = and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web = site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists = "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you = purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet = endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank = you!-----------------------------


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3043D.3CB050D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] F-30d Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:32:03 -0400 The bowser kit is a great start for an ho conversio. I mant an f30d specifically for Truc train service with the side barriers and truck support. this would be much easier if it were produced then converting an F30. Jerry, it would be like taking 60 Bowser f30's in N and converting all 60. The per unit cost could, in some possible be less then that of a brass modl, but the brass or resin model, would take less time overall. It's just a theory. -John frantz I always assumed -- perhaps I shouldn't have -- that the Bowser F30 is close to a PRR F30. If so, that would be an excellent basis for the F30d model. I have numerous TrucTrain documents that highlight the changes, as does an article in The Keystone. Should be a fairly easy conversion in HO. N, that's another story! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:57:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: F-30d Hi John, My understanding is that Stan Rydarowicz sells both a decal set for the F30D and the rub rails to convert the bowser car to an F30D. Stan Rydarowicz 165 Manchester Ave. Youngstown Ohio 44509 330-799-5321 His parts list is on this page: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/parts/partsmain.html A couple of months ago, we discussed the very same issues on the Railroad modeler list (formerly PM-Forum) on Yehaw. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RAILROADmodeler/ Happy Rails Bruce >Bruce, >Would you happen to know if anybody has a good model of an >F30d for Truc Train service? I know Jerry is pleading for >someone to make them in N scale since he needs about 60. >It'salso be nice in Ho. My father has a bowser F30 thats >on the backburner for converting to an F30d. Just tosing >out a question. Happy Rails to all. and have a good >Easter. >-John Frantz Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:52:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] F-30d From: Jerry Britton On 4/16/03 1:32 PM, "John Frantz" wrote: > The bowser kit is a great start for an ho conversio. I > mant an f30d specifically for Truc train service with the > side barriers and truck support. this would be much easier > if it were produced then converting an F30. Jerry, it > would be like taking 60 Bowser f30's in N and converting > all 60. The per unit cost could, in some possible be less > then that of a brass modl, but the brass or resin model, > would take less time overall. It's just a theory. The side rails were perforated I beams. I just happen to know a laser cutter that ALREADY makes these in HO just for the Bowser F30! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:27:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Spectrum P70 --0-920991095-1050528446=:52388 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have several of the Spectrum P70s, as well as some of the other cars, and I am curious about what details I can add to them. I am interested in the era around 1950. Obviously fixed couplers, diaphragms, steam and air hoses, and cut levers would help the ends. Anything else on the rest of the car? I am not trying for contest quality, just some improvements. What is an appropriate color for the interior walls, and for the seats? Pat EganChicago --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-920991095-1050528446=:52388 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I have several of the Spectrum P70s, as well as some of the other cars, and I am curious about what details I can add to them.  I am interested in the era around 1950.
 
Obviously fixed couplers, diaphragms, steam and air hoses, and cut levers would help the ends.  Anything else on the rest of the car?  I am not trying for contest quality, just some improvements.
 
What is an appropriate color for the interior walls, and for the seats? 
 
Pat Egan
Chicago
 


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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-920991095-1050528446=:52388-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] F30D Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:43:40 -0400 John Frantz asked: Would you happen to know if anybody has a good model of an F30D for Truc Train service? Sorry John, no specific kit for Class F30D is out there in HO scale. However, Stan Rydarowicz has decals and instructions to convert a Bowser kit to a TrucTrain flat with lengths of .060 I-Beams with milled slots to model the side rails. I'm not sure if he has trailer securing gear. Parts and ordering information follow: F30 Flat Car Decal Set for Bowser Car (set does 2 cars) $4.00 .060 I-Beam with Milled Slots $5.00 All parts postage paid (USA only) Stan Rydarowicz 165 Manchester Ave Youngstown OH 44509 (No website/e-mail) For those of you who don't know Stan, he gets a ton of mileage out of kits that most people would immediately consign to the meet junk table, including nice models out of Gilbert reefers and the Red Ball/Wabash Valley/Cannonball Car Shops X23 boxcar kit. He also makes a bunch of resin conversion parts, conversion kits for Wabash/Ann Arbor panel side hoppers, and Rivarossi/AHM/IHC 12-1 Pullmans with the window panels already laser cut (so you can buy and use those great NERS parts gathering dust at your hobby shop). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one of Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:59:49 -0400 Ben Hom wrote: > Subject: PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one of the > silent lurking majority...) > > It just so happens that I'm working on a "Balancing the Model Boxcar > Fleet" > article for RMC. Here are some thoughts on building a fleet for your > layout: > > As for gons and flats, I'll leave them to Bruce Smith. > Looking forward to hearing from you, Bruce ! Wow, Ben, this is terrific!!! Exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for. Be sure to share with the list about when your article will be published in RMC. RMC is another thing that I can't easily obtain around here, since the local news dealer that carried it shut their doors for good a few months ago. I don't subscribe, as I get too many other RR/MRR mags already. As I said, it's a model railroading desert around here. Oh well, have to make another hour's drive to the hobby shop... :^) Pennsters, I've been looking through my "$50 slide show" books on the B&M/MEC for PRR freight cars lurking in the backgrounds. Actually, the most prevalent ones in the photos are PRR express box cars, in camp trains to Maine or New Hampshire. These trains ran up until the mid-60's, with all kinds of different roads' passenger equipment (making some money on equipment they weren't otherwise running by that time, I suppose), and apparently at least some ran via Penn Station. I've seen shots of camp trains with equipment from that OTHER railroad, too, no PRR express boxcars, of course. Here's a question: did PRR express boxes/other passenger equipment ever show up in Grand Central, courtesy of the New Haven? Ben, you're right about the hoppers -- at least for the Maine Central: apparently locomotive coal was brought up the coast from Hampton Roads by colliers and transloaded at Portland onto company hopper cars for shipping to the engine terminals. I'll have to keep that little detail in mind, I hadn't thought of that. My one coaling tower fueling Steam's Last Stand In Northern New Hampshire is presently served by off-line hoppers, which I guess is unlikely. There IS a shot in one of my books of the Worcester, MA engine terminal the B&M shared with the New Haven, taken ca. 1952. It shows a well-worn PRR composite hopper (I assume a 'war emergency' version?) coupled to a P&LE steel hopper, feeding the coaler. I guess the New Haven with its Poughkeepsie Bridge felt it was cost-effective to have the coal travel via rail all the way from the Pennsy's western PA coal fields to the L&HR and thence to Maybrook. The PRR hopper car was too dirty/weathered for me to make out the complete number, it was 6 digits, 44xxxx. Someone with an ORER from that period might be able to tell us what class of car it was. I also couldn't tell how many 'bays' it had as it was half hidden by the subject of the picture, a shiny new F3. Is Athearn or Life-Like's composite two-bay hopper anywhere near accurate for this kind of car? Sounds like a few may have lasted until the mid 50's... Shots of the huge paper mills in Maine often show cars from all over the country, being used in pulpwood service (yes, pulpwood was often shipped in closed-roof boxcars, to supplement the bulkhead flat cars most of us associate with that type of lading). More modern types of PRR 40' box cars are in those shots (not the rounded-roof variety, though), with the shadow keystone lettering. They look like PS-1s, but they're in the distance and I can't tell for sure -- the doors are wider than some of the other cars and they don't look like PS-1 doors that I've seen. Did Pennsy own PS-1 boxcars? There were also plenty of Santa Fe, MoPac, Southern Pacific, Great Northern, etc etc. cars as well -- I guess MEC just grabbed any empties that happened to be on their lines and put them into pulp service. Oddly, a lot of Pittsburgh and Lake Erie box cars seemed to end up in Maine, too -- steel shipments to Bath Iron Works (a shipbuilder), perhaps? Ben, also thanks on the tips for modifying the Trainline cars. Great stuff, sounds like it would be a good idea to go your route in modifying an RTR car to ramp up my skills before tackling a pieces-parts kind of kit. I'll get there, sooner or later. Those Walthers X29s are one group of my cars where the "claws" CAN be dispensed with -- if you open the door to represent an empty car, there on the floor of the car are the steel weights with big blobs of hot glue holding them in place! Lovely, and oh so realistic... :^P I *do* like the functional doors on other cars (which I know probably has the car modeling experts on the list gagging in disgust) -- I guess it's the train-set kid in me coming out. Before moving a car out of a consignee's spot, I open the door to represent its being empty. I paint the floors of those functional-door cars a grayish-brown "used wood" color and spatter paint to represent spilled lading, scuff them up to represent dolly-wheel scrapes, and put little scraps of thin tissue, thin wire 'banding' and the like in there to represent the junk and abuse one almost always sees in an empty box car. Looks better than shiny black plastic and little modeling skill involved. One question I have that I haven't been able to verify: were interiors of boxcars of the period -- steel or wood -- painted white, or just left a natural 'blonde' wood color? For some reason, my memory is telling me "natural wood" but maybe it varied by railroad. Someone on this list must know how the Pennsy did it. Did steel boxcars of the 40's-50's era still have wood interiors? Modern steel boxcars I see passing here these days with open doors have white interiors, and boy, they are really banged up inside, undoubtedly from over-exuberant forklift operators. Exuberantly yours, Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:21:51 -0400 Doug Drew wrote: "There IS a shot in one of my books of the Worcester, MA engine terminal the B&M shared with the New Haven, taken ca. 1952. It shows a well-worn PRR composite hopper (I assume a 'war emergency' version?) coupled to a P&LE steel hopper, feeding the coaler. <> The PRR hopper car was too dirty/weathered for me to make out the complete number, it was 6 digits, 44xxxx. Someone with an ORER from that period might be able to tell us what class of car it was." Are you sure about the car number? 44xxxxx will get you a gon. The only PRR composite hoppers around during the 1940s and 1950s are the "War Emergency" H31 subclasses: one Class H31A prototype (PRR 249990) and 500 production Class H31B twin hoppers (PRR 220842-221341), built in 1942. "Is Athearn or Life-Like's composite two-bay hopper anywhere near accurate for this kind of car? Sounds like a few may have lasted until the mid 50's..." No - you can get much closer by using Accurail's composite hopper. Unfortunately, Accurail based the kit's sides on the Class H31A prototype instead of the H31B production cars - the H31A was taller by 5 inches and had an extra board. At any rate, most of us could live with this car as a stand in since this was a rare class by Pennsy standards (500 cars vs. 36,000+ Class H21A). By 1955, 266 class H31B cars were left. These cars were rebuilt with steel sides as the 1950s went on - the 1955 ORER lists 228 Class H31C cars, numbered in the same series. "Shots of the huge paper mills in Maine often show cars from all over the country, being used in pulpwood service (yes, pulpwood was often shipped in closed-roof boxcars, to supplement the bulkhead flat cars most of us associate with that type of lading)." I've seen pictures of boxcars on the D&H crammed full of pulpwood, with longer pieces sticking out of open doors. I also have a photo from the Library of Congress' FSA/OWI collection of workers loading pulpwood into a boxcar stick by stick. "More modern types of PRR 40' box cars are in those shots (not the rounded-roof variety, though), with the shadow keystone lettering. They look like PS-1s, but they're in the distance and I can't tell for sure -- the doors are wider than some of the other cars and they don't look like PS-1 doors that I've seen." They're probably X43 subclasses (X43A/X43B/X43C), a total of 5000 cars purchased from AC&F and Pressed Steel Car Co. in 1950 and 1951. When you model these cars, make sure you have photos handy as the details differ between subclass and car builder. You can model these cars using Branchline (preferred) or C&BT kits (requires more work unless you use a later kit with molded on grabs). "Did Pennsy own PS-1 boxcars?" PRR 47000-47019, Class X48, 20 cars equipped with P-S cushioned underframes. "Did steel boxcars of the 40's-50's era still have wood interiors?" Yes. Red Caboose sells laser-cut inserts to fit their 1937 AAR boxcar kits. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JRobb123@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:26:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education --part1_115.21fb7901.2bcf4091_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, The reason for the 90 degree lead is so that the engine will be "self starting" at any crankpin angle that the engine stops on. At least one end of one cylinder will be on a power stroke. The Union Pacific 9000 class 4-12-2 engines were three cylinder engines and I believe that that the crankpins were set at 120 degrees to each other. Although extremely heavy and powerful they did not pound the rails as badly as some two cylinder engines. Just my two cents worth. Joe Robbins --part1_115.21fb7901.2bcf4091_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys,

         The reason for the 90 degre= e lead is so that the engine will be "self starting" at any crankpin angle t= hat the engine stops on. At least one end of one cylinder will be on a power= stroke. The Union Pacific 9000 class 4-12-2 engines were three cylinder eng= ines and I believe that that the crankpins were set at 120 degrees to each o= ther. Although extremely heavy and powerful they did not pound the rails as=20= badly as some two cylinder engines. Just my two cents worth.

             =20=               =20= Joe Robbins

       --part1_115.21fb7901.2bcf4091_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:41:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features --part1_12d.278a269e.2bcf442d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aren't there copyright infringement issues with copying an article out of a subscription publication and posting it on the web? CB #1918 --part1_12d.278a269e.2bcf442d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aren't there copyright infringement issues with copyin= g an article out of a subscription publication and posting it on the web?
CB  #1918 --part1_12d.278a269e.2bcf442d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Progress - Philadelphia Terminal Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:19:24 -0400 Excellent wok, John! Can't wait to see how you string the catenary!! Thumbnail enlargements work well on Windows XP. S. D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Layout Progress - Philadelphia Terminal > Our listmeister has kindly uploaded some new pictures of my layout to his website. Thanks Jerry. > > The new pictures are of the 2nd reassembly of the Philadelphia Terminal after my most recent move. Things are still in the plywood stage so it takes some imagination, but I've also included some prototype photos to show where it's headed. Currently I have one track laid to the eastern limits of Zoo. It's at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/cooper/cooper.htm > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:17:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Of course. That's why I said I couldn't post it! On Wednesday, April 16, 2003, at 07:41 PM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > Aren't there copyright infringement issues with copying an article out > of a subscription publication and posting it on the web? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:44:33 -0700 I had never really thought about the physics of this before. I had always just assumed the pounding was from the up and down motion of the side rods that just was never perfectly balanced. But from what you're saying, it appears that a steam engine coasting with its throttle closed does not pound the rails. Let me see if I got this right. When the main rod is at the top of the wheel, there is a downward force component, because the main rod is at an angle and pulling. As the main rod approaches either the left or right of the wheel, (centerline of axle) the vertical component becomes zero because the main rod become horizontal. Then, as the main rod approaches the bottom of the wheel, there is also a vertical component downward because the main rod is at an opposite angle but pushing. Therefore I conclude that the rail gets pounded not once but twice for every revolution of the wheel? Is this right? John -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov To: ndbprr@att.net ; PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education >Norm, > >The reason is simple. With a 90 degree lead, whenever one piston's main rod >was at a position where its thrust would be directly against the axle >centerline rather than the wheel rim, the other piston's main rod was at its >furthest position from the axle centerline so its thrust was directed toward >the wheel rim and rotation. It was the variation of the angle of the >piston's thrust that caused the "dynamic augment" or rail pounding. > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: "PRR-Talk" >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:09 PM >Subject: [PRR] Steam engine education > > >> I have a picture of a K4 over my desk and was thinking about the left hand >lead >> the PRR used which brings me to my question. Everybody knows that one of >the >> big problems with steam was the pounding the roadbed took because of the >mass >> of the rods. Why a 90 degree lead? Was the track width sufficient that >each >> side had it's own dynamic vibration and independent of the other side or >was >> there a common effect? If so wouldn't a 120-150 degree lead have helped >to >> balance some of the pounding? Thanks >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:52:02 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features There are pictures of a PRR 12-1 Plan 3410A Model on Jerry's site. http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRRModel.html Then select BEAVER, car number 8733. Garry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: [PRR] After a wet spell Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:54:27 -0400 Jerry, and all users of Homasote, How is that beautiful trackwork on your painted Homasote after the great flood? Most reports give very little difference to painted vs. unpainted Homasote expansion due to moisture. Your results surely will tell a HUGE story for the rest of us. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:19:36 -0400 John and list, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I think it gets even more complicated. There are stories that when the "big engine" was on the test bed at Altoona it actually raised all four drivers of an engine off the rails at certain (very high) speeds. I believe if nothing more were involved than the weight of the side rods, it would be no problem to perfectly counterbalance that. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cooper" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education > I had never really thought about the physics of this before. I had always > just assumed the pounding was from the up and down motion of the side rods > that just was never perfectly balanced. But from what you're saying, it > appears that a steam engine coasting with its throttle closed does not pound > the rails. > > Let me see if I got this right. When the main rod is at the top of the > wheel, there is a downward force component, because the main rod is at an > angle and pulling. As the main rod approaches either the left or right of > the wheel, (centerline of axle) the vertical component becomes zero because > the main rod become horizontal. Then, as the main rod approaches the bottom > of the wheel, there is also a vertical component downward because the main > rod is at an opposite angle but pushing. > > Therefore I conclude that the rail gets pounded not once but twice for every > revolution of the wheel? Is this right? > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregg Mahlkov > To: ndbprr@att.net ; PRR-Talk > Date: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:37 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam engine education > > > >Norm, > > > >The reason is simple. With a 90 degree lead, whenever one piston's main rod > >was at a position where its thrust would be directly against the axle > >centerline rather than the wheel rim, the other piston's main rod was at > its > >furthest position from the axle centerline so its thrust was directed > toward > >the wheel rim and rotation. It was the variation of the angle of the > >piston's thrust that caused the "dynamic augment" or rail pounding. > > > >Gregg Mahlkov > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: "PRR-Talk" > >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:09 PM > >Subject: [PRR] Steam engine education > > > > > >> I have a picture of a K4 over my desk and was thinking about the left > hand > >lead > >> the PRR used which brings me to my question. Everybody knows that one of > >the > >> big problems with steam was the pounding the roadbed took because of the > >mass > >> of the rods. Why a 90 degree lead? Was the track width sufficient that > >each > >> side had it's own dynamic vibration and independent of the other side or > >was > >> there a common effect? If so wouldn't a 120-150 degree lead have helped > >to > >> balance some of the pounding? Thanks > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:25:25 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] What goes around comes around A bit less than a year ago, Bruce Smith wrote: Here's an interesting photo and a question... http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/NG.jpeg Is this a location on the PRR? It sure looks that way to me, and NG tower strikes a bell...but I'm not sure. That started a spate of e-mail which eventually concluded that the tower was a B&O structure along the Youghiogheny River at the mouth of Indian Creek. Just tonight I was poking about in the library at the club and came on the June 1940 issue of Model Railroader. There on page 322, in an article titled "B&O Scenery and Right of Way" was a small version of the photo Bruce had (and still has) at the URL above. The caption read "Indian Creek, Pa", photo credit was "B&O photo". (No, the June 1940 MR didn't have over 300 pages. They had a strange numbering scheme.) Small world, isn't it? PRR content: The same article showed a photo of the B&O Susquehanna River bridge at Havre de Grace, which passed over the PRR as well as the river, as well as being quite impressive in its own right. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:34:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] After a wet spell From: Jerry Britton On 4/16/03 10:54 PM, "Bob McKay" wrote: > How is that beautiful trackwork on your painted Homasote after the great > flood? Most reports give very little difference to painted vs. unpainted > Homasote expansion due to moisture. Your results surely will tell a HUGE > story for the rest of us. Actually, let me back up. You posted this to PRR-talk, which doesn't know about the incident. I had reported it to the PRR-ER list. Yesterday morning, at 4 a.m., my wife awoke to a sound she wasn't familiar with. A trip downstairs found the kitchen under a half inch of water. Turns out one of the supply hoses on the washing machine blew out and had been dumping water into the house for HOURS! Of course I blew past the kitchen and headed to the basement. At its deapest, water was about 1.5 inches deep. The finished office was untouched, sitting in the highest corner. Under the kitchen, which will be the Crew's Lounge, it was like a tropical shower, with water dripping here and there and everywhere. Some of my drywall material (unused as yet) was stored directly under the brunt of it. The layout room had NO WATER coming in from above. Whew! After shutting off the water and using about 30 towels to clean up the first floor, we took to the basement. We pushed the water en masse towards the sump pump and got most of it out in about an hour. I then got two fans and a dehumidifier running. Out in the main room, it took several hours to clean up the mess. Because I was cutting material there for both the layout and the Crew's Lounge, there were small scraps all over the floor, with the associated sawdust, etc. Yuk! In the end, it cleaned up pretty darn well. The biggest casualties were my collection of Keystones and Rails Northeast, both easily replaced. (My Keystones only went back to 1992 or so.) The insurance company was prompt, very professional, and very helpful. Not at all what I expected! A general contractor was on-site within an hour of the adjuster leaving and two crews were on-site within an hour after that. One crew was a "dry out" crew that sucked up most remaining standing water, put in four h/d fans and a commercial dehumidifier. They also tore out several HVAC ducts which had been soaked. They sprayed to prevent mildew and other molds. The other crew was measuring to fabricate new HVAC ductwork, which should go in tomorrow. (The water drained down two floor registers and worked its way into the main supply system in the basement.) Back to the layout. It has now been over 24 hours and there are ZERO signs of damage. I had cut the homasote with a knife blade, which "seals" the edges. I had painted the exposed surfaces. There is no evidence of moisture, expansion, etc. No kinks in the track. Surface feels its usual hardness. In fact, we proceeded with a work session last evening! I was able to sleep last night! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:47:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Homasote Roadbed --part1_131.1d3934f9.2bcfe02f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I build a staging yard module for our club's traveling, modular layout. The modules showed little or no change in Colorado, but when we took the layout to North Platte, Nebraska for an NMRA meet. Well, the Exxon Valdez or the Titanic would have looked right at home in that yard as the higher humid caused noticeable swelling. Once back in Colorado, the roadbed returned to its original, flat surface. The track was removed and the Homasote sealed with latex primer and two coats of latex paint. The following year in North Platte the humid had no effect on the Homasote. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_131.1d3934f9.2bcfe02f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   I build a staging yard module for our club's tr= aveling,  modular layout.  The modules showed little or no change=20= in Colorado, but when we took the layout to North Platte, Nebraska for an NM= RA meet.  Well,  the Exxon Valdez or the Titanic would have looked= right at home in that yard as the higher humid caused noticeable swelling.&= nbsp; Once back in Colorado, the roadbed returned to its original, flat surf= ace.  The track was removed and the Homasote sealed with latex primer a= nd two coats of latex paint.  The following year in North Platte the hu= mid had no effect on the Homasote.


Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_131.1d3934f9.2bcfe02f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:31:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine Education --part1_18c.18f9b9c9.2bcfea99_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Gregg Mahlkov mentioned about the PRR test bed experience of the drivers lifting off of the rail at a given speed. A movie made as part of an engineering study on the Atlantic Coast Line (it may have been the Seaboard Air Line), the footage showed all of the drivers on a 2-8-2 engine simultaneously lifting off of the rail while accelerating to track speed. This lifting was also exhibited when the loco was slowing down and noted as occurring in the same speed range. The camera was mounted to the loco's frame at the railhead level. In the written report it was noted that not only the application of lightweight rods but also the cross-counter balancing of the main drivers nearly eliminated this wheel hop. The footage of the modified engine show no lifting of the wheel tread from the rail but there was still a noticeable vertical motion with each revolution of the wheels. After viewing that movie, there was little wonder why the MoW folks took an instant liking to the diesel locomotive. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_18c.18f9b9c9.2bcfea99_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   As Gregg Mahlkov mentioned about the PRR test b= ed experience of the drivers lifting off of the rail at a given speed. = A movie made as part of an engineering study on the Atlantic Coast Line (it= may have been the Seaboard Air Line),  the footage showed all of the d= rivers on a 2-8-2 engine simultaneously lifting off of the rail while accele= rating to track speed. This lifting was also exhibited when the loco was slo= wing down and noted as occurring in the same speed range.  The camera w= as mounted to the loco's frame at the railhead level.  In the written r= eport it was noted that not only the application of lightweight rods but als= o the cross-counter balancing of the main drivers nearly eliminated this whe= el hop.  The footage of the modified engine show no lifting of the whee= l tread from the rail but there was still a noticeable vertical motion with=20= each revolution of the wheels.

  After viewing that movie, there was little wonder why the MoW folks t= ook an instant liking to the diesel locomotive.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_18c.18f9b9c9.2bcfea99_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:59:22 -0400 List, I'm doing an installation on my PRR layout of a light engine service/hostling facility and need some specifics on what's out there/available for coaling towers, water towers, sanding facilities, ash pits, and a single stall engine house. I've started laying out this area, but want it "done right". Any help here is appreciated. Doug (OH) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:55:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Education I pretend no expertise in this, but wouldn't setting the cranks 90 degrees apart (on a two-cylinder engine) be required in order to obtain four evenly-spaced power strokes per driver revolution? Not to mention the exhaust sounds; if the cranks were set at 60 degrees, then the exhaust would sound like . . chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff . . . .. If the power strokes were not evenly spaced, wouldn't the gross vibration be inevitably worse? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:29:57 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Steam engine education Counterbalancing can be surprisingly (or maybe not) sophisticated. I once saw a display of a cutaway airplane engine, rotating at slow speed. Mounted in openings in the counterweight parts of the crankshaft were freely pivoted weight inserts that could move back and forth a few degrees around the axis of the crankshaft as the shaft rotated. I never understood what was supposed to be going on there other than being told it had to do with counterbalancing (I was about 12 years old) but never forgot the display. Re the drivers leaving the rails, Karl Kantola told me he had made movies with a camera mounted on a locomotive near track level looking forward past the drivers. The movies showed drivers lifting up to three inches. He said more than one engineer retired upon seeing the movie. Steve Bartlett Gregg Mahlkov wrote: John and list, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I think it gets even more complicated. There are stories that when the "big engine" was on the test bed at Altoona it actually raised all four drivers of an engine off the rails at certain (very high) speeds. I believe if nothing more were involved than the weight of the side rods, it would be no problem to perfectly counterbalance that. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Steam engine education Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:57:32 +0000 Counter balancing can be a very sophisticated process. Don't forget though we are talking about the 1940's and the 1950's at the very latest. A dynamic tire balancer is a form of counterbalancing (and raely done properly in my opinion). The technologies employed today weren't even thought of then. The current abilities could easily have extnded road time for the engines of the day through the materials alone that weren't even thought of then. As an aside a 747 first stage turbine blade grows 3/4" when wound up through the centifugal force. They are made of titanium that is heat treated in most case up to about a month to insure that they are a single crystal. Other wise they wouldn't be able to take the forces. If you ever get the chance to be near an aircraft engine that the wind is turning over you will hear a clank,clank,clank as the blades fall over center. They are that loose at rest. Fortunately steam engines never operated at the RPM level of jets except for maybe the big swoosh! > Counterbalancing can be surprisingly (or maybe not) sophisticated. I > once saw a display of a cutaway airplane engine, rotating at slow speed. > Mounted in openings in the counterweight parts of the crankshaft were > freely pivoted weight inserts that could move back and forth a few > degrees around the axis of the crankshaft as the shaft rotated. I never > understood what was supposed to be going on there other than being told > it had to do with counterbalancing (I was about 12 years old) but never > forgot the display. > > Re the drivers leaving the rails, Karl Kantola told me he had made > movies with a camera mounted on a locomotive near track level looking > forward past the drivers. The movies showed drivers lifting up to three > inches. He said more than one engineer retired upon seeing the movie. > > Steve Bartlett > > Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > John and list, > > I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I think it gets even more > complicated. > There are stories that when the "big engine" was on the test bed at > Altoona > it actually raised all four drivers of an engine off the rails at > certain > (very high) speeds. I believe if nothing more were involved than the > weight > of the side rods, it would be no problem to perfectly counterbalance > that. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Engine Education Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:16:51 -0400 John, Yes, this called being "out of quarter". On some sound recordings of Pennsy engines this effect can be clearly heard. Probably caused by wear and the valve gear needing adjustment. The locomotive would be shopped to correct this problem. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:56 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Education I pretend no expertise in this, but wouldn't setting the cranks 90 degrees apart (on a two-cylinder engine) be required in order to obtain four evenly-spaced power strokes per driver revolution? Not to mention the exhaust sounds; if the cranks were set at 60 degrees, then the exhaust would sound like . . chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff . . . .. If the power strokes were not evenly spaced, wouldn't the gross vibration be inevitably worse? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:32:34 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: A Bit OT Re: [PRR] After a wet spell Greetings to Jerry and the group, Sorry to hear about your flood Jerry and happy that things are being repaired. We had the same situation happen last year. Hot water line under kitchen sink blew (was plastic but met code) and dumped hot water for hours while we were at work. Our ranch home had two inches of water in every room on the first floor except two bedrooms, which remained completely dry. All of this water too wound up in the basement, which had three inches of standing water when we got home. Luckily for me, I'm still in the armchair mode of modeling. However the point of my reply is that our insurance company could not have been more helpful. They had a plumber there to fix the kitchen sink line within two hours and made the decision to replace our solid oak flooring, which is used throughout 90% of our house, within 48 hours. We had some serious damage to the flooring of our home and the insurance company adjuster didn't even blink, "Make it the way it was." Yes there are cheaper dot com and '800' number insurance companies out there that claim they can save you money. As we all are told from a very early age, "You get what you pay for." Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 06:34 AM 4/17/2003 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >Yesterday morning, at 4 a.m., my wife awoke to a sound she wasn't familiar >with. A trip downstairs found the kitchen under a half inch of water. Turns >out one of the supply hoses on the washing machine blew out and had been >dumping water into the house for HOURS! > >Of course I blew past the kitchen and headed to the basement. At its >deapest, water was about 1.5 inches deep. The finished office was untouched, >sitting in the highest corner. Under the kitchen, which will be the Crew's >Lounge, it was like a tropical shower, with water dripping here and there >and everywhere. Some of my drywall material (unused as yet) was stored >directly under the brunt of it. > >The layout room had NO WATER coming in from above. Whew! > >The insurance company was prompt, very professional, and very helpful. Not >at all what I expected! A general contractor was on-site within an hour of >the adjuster leaving and two crews were on-site within an hour after that. > >One crew was a "dry out" crew that sucked up most remaining standing water, >put in four h/d fans and a commercial dehumidifier. They also tore out >several HVAC ducts which had been soaked. They sprayed to prevent mildew and >other molds. > >The other crew was measuring to fabricate new HVAC ductwork, which should go >in tomorrow. (The water drained down two floor registers and worked its way >into the main supply system in the basement.) > >I was able to sleep last night! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: A Bit OT Re: [PRR] After a wet spell Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:43:24 +0000 That is why I insist my wife turn off the faucets to the washing machine when not in use. The old "ounce of prevention" routine. > Greetings to Jerry and the group, > > Sorry to hear about your flood Jerry and happy that things are being > repaired. We had the same situation happen last year. Hot water line under > kitchen sink blew (was plastic but met code) and dumped hot water for hours > while we were at work. Our ranch home had two inches of water in every room > on the first floor except two bedrooms, which remained completely dry. All > of this water too wound up in the basement, which had three inches of > standing water when we got home. Luckily for me, I'm still in the armchair > mode of modeling. > > However the point of my reply is that our insurance company could not have > been more helpful. They had a plumber there to fix the kitchen sink line > within two hours and made the decision to replace our solid oak flooring, > which is used throughout 90% of our house, within 48 hours. We had some > serious damage to the flooring of our home and the insurance company > adjuster didn't even blink, "Make it the way it was." > > Yes there are cheaper dot com and '800' number insurance companies out > there that claim they can save you money. As we all are told from a very > early age, "You get what you pay for." > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > At 06:34 AM 4/17/2003 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: > > >Yesterday morning, at 4 a.m., my wife awoke to a sound she wasn't familiar > >with. A trip downstairs found the kitchen under a half inch of water. Turns > >out one of the supply hoses on the washing machine blew out and had been > >dumping water into the house for HOURS! > > > >Of course I blew past the kitchen and headed to the basement. At its > >deapest, water was about 1.5 inches deep. The finished office was untouched, > >sitting in the highest corner. Under the kitchen, which will be the Crew's > >Lounge, it was like a tropical shower, with water dripping here and there > >and everywhere. Some of my drywall material (unused as yet) was stored > >directly under the brunt of it. > > > >The layout room had NO WATER coming in from above. Whew! > > > >The insurance company was prompt, very professional, and very helpful. Not > >at all what I expected! A general contractor was on-site within an hour of > >the adjuster leaving and two crews were on-site within an hour after that. > > > >One crew was a "dry out" crew that sucked up most remaining standing water, > >put in four h/d fans and a commercial dehumidifier. They also tore out > >several HVAC ducts which had been soaked. They sprayed to prevent mildew and > >other molds. > > > >The other crew was measuring to fabricate new HVAC ductwork, which should go > >in tomorrow. (The water drained down two floor registers and worked its way > >into the main supply system in the basement.) > > > >I was able to sleep last night! > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:50:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Driver Balancing --0-41664986-1050594651=:97125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It is my understanding that the rods on a steam locomotive can be balanced reasonably well, if there is enough room in the pockets in the drivers for a sufficient amount of lead. The lack of space is the reason why low drivered ten coupled engines often hammered the track, and why some main driver counterweights stuck out from the wheel maybe a foot. That this can be done, and done well, was shown by the New York Central with some tests using a Hudson standing still on greased rail. At 164 mph, there was no lift on the main driver, and at about 230 mph, the driver lifted a small amount, maybe 1/4 inch or less. I have also seen movies taken on the Burlington showing far greater lift, maybe an inch or two, at much more ordinary speeds, on some heavy freight engines. I believe it was the "before" in a "before and after" series. There is another consideration, cross-counterbalancing. It is an effort to counteract the piston thrust, that causes the locomotive to nose from side to side Pat EganChicago --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-41664986-1050594651=:97125 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
It is my understanding that the rods on a steam locomotive can be balanced reasonably well, if there is enough room in the pockets in the drivers for a sufficient amount of lead.  The lack of space is the reason why low drivered ten coupled engines often hammered the track, and why some main driver counterweights stuck out from the wheel maybe a foot.
 
That this can be done, and done well, was shown by the New York Central with some tests using a Hudson standing still on greased rail.  At 164 mph, there was no lift on the main driver, and at about 230 mph, the driver lifted a small amount, maybe 1/4 inch or less.  I have also seen movies taken on the Burlington showing far greater lift, maybe an inch or two, at much more ordinary speeds, on some heavy freight engines.  I believe it was the "before" in a "before and after" series. 
 
There is another consideration, cross-counterbalancing.  It is an effort to counteract the piston thrust, that causes the locomotive to nose from side to side as it goes down the track.  I believe this is why the counterweight pockets are often not exactly across the wheel from the crank pin.  As I understand it, it is the cross-counterbalancing which causes the hammer blow to the track.
 
I have read that the N&W Js were not cross-counterbalanced, or at least much less so than is usual.  To counter the nosing, the leading and trailing trucks were set up to strongly resist side to side movement.  It must have been successful.  They were 100 mph locomotives with 69 inch drivers.
 
I wonder if the Pennsy did something like this with the T1s, given their phenominal capability for speed.

Pat Egan
Chicago
 


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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-41664986-1050594651=:97125-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Tower pictures Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:52:27 +0000 Does anyone know of pictures of Grundy, Morris and Fair Towers on the internet that I can use for modeling purposes? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:53:01 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Doug asks: >I'm doing an installation on my PRR layout of a light engine >service/hostling facility and need some specifics on what's out >there/available for: >coaling towers It is helpful to have an actual facility in mind sometimes...for a true small scale facility, one of my favorites is Watkins Glen NY, where helpers on the Elmira Branch were based... A single or double track Fairbanks Morse wooden tower might work...examples are: Campbell 357 Coaling Station Gloor Craft 4001 Coaling Tower I'm not sure if either of these are strictly PRR prototypes, but PRR did buy FM coaling stations. The Tichy 400 ton coal dock is WAY too big for you...Consider too the idea of a bucket crane and coal hopper on a siding...a common way of dealing with this problem. A third approach is the FM ash hoist...a single bucket "skip" in a metal frame tower such as was seen at Thorndale's helper track and a number of other small PRR facilities...got to scratchbuild that one . >water towers Lots of variety here too...a small wooden tank or a larger metal tank, or even a cistern/tank at a distance and just the spout at trackside (which would be my approach!). Again, not sure if any of these are strictly PRR... American Model Builders 154 50,000 Gallon Wood Railroad Water Tank Campbell 356 Wood Water Tower Sheepscot Scale Products 1080 50,000-Gallon Wood Water Tower Walthers 2800 series Wood Water tank Tichy water collumn Note that there are brass models of specific PRR water towers available. >sanding facilities Again, not sure of any specific PRR protoypes but Campbell has a nice kit >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need >single stall engine house. Not aware of any PRR prototypes/models (ie, does the PRR have a single stall engine house for steam anywhere on the system?) Me thinks the let 'em sit outside most times! So to sum it up...I'm not sure that there is a lot of specific PRR stuff out there of the nature you are looking for...so how to make your facility appear to be part of the PRR? 1) PRR locos go a LONG way to doing that! 2) PRR logos...perhaps a sign with a Keystone denoting the name of the yard, or engine facility. 3) PRR MOW equipment parked at the facility 4) PRR two or three pipe fence protecting that concrete culvert 5) PRR position light signals out there on the main... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:04:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service From: Jerry Britton Also, a few tips... You will quickly realize that engine facilities take up a ton of space. Sometimes you can get away with just implying the presence of the engine facility, or including only a portion. Examples... On Bill Darnaby's (?) Maumee Route, he included the service facilities and the turntable, but since the roundhouse really eats space, he included the inside edge and a few long stalls. The remainder of the building cuts off where it meets the wall or the edge of the layout. Since the inside wall has more doors than stalls that actually work, the implication is that it is bigger than it really is. You can also put tenders sticking out of those dummy stalls. Bowser sells tenders by themselves. You can see photos of this roundhouse in past issues of Model Railroad Planning. On Tony Koester's former Allegheny Midland, at Sunrise Yard, he included the coaling tower, water, etc. But from there the leads just went off the edge of the benchwork...implying that there was more. Just some ideas. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:24:00 +0000 That is why I have never understood the logic of trying to model a steel mill. A modern hot rolling mill is a minimum of 3/4 of a mile long. The Walthers "rolling mill" is an absolute joke. The blast furnace is smaller than foundry cupola furnaces and is about a 1900 size furnace. Unless modeling the ends of buildings to give the impression of a mill it is impossible. Fortunately Fairless Works and most others have a transfer yard between the PRR and the mill that can be modeled easily with background photos of the mill at a distance for effect. I still have a module with an 18" turntable pit in my garage that I can't bear to part with and don't want to use. The engine facilities took over 25% of my available space when I built it! Now I hint at them without modeling them. In this day and age of staging yards and operation they no longer rank high on the list of must haves for me. I would prefer to use the space for something like an industry that can be switched. To each their own however. > Also, a few tips... > > You will quickly realize that engine facilities take up a ton of space. > Sometimes you can get away with just implying the presence of the engine > facility, or including only a portion. Examples... > > On Bill Darnaby's (?) Maumee Route, he included the service facilities and > the turntable, but since the roundhouse really eats space, he included the > inside edge and a few long stalls. The remainder of the building cuts off > where it meets the wall or the edge of the layout. Since the inside wall has > more doors than stalls that actually work, the implication is that it is > bigger than it really is. You can also put tenders sticking out of those > dummy stalls. Bowser sells tenders by themselves. You can see photos of this > roundhouse in past issues of Model Railroad Planning. > > On Tony Koester's former Allegheny Midland, at Sunrise Yard, he included the > coaling tower, water, etc. But from there the leads just went off the edge > of the benchwork...implying that there was more. > > Just some ideas. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:29:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service --part1_13.1b5fa483.2bd0305b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are up to a crafstman kit, the Diamond Scale coaling tower is very similar to those seen in photos of PRR small terminals. The Tichy kit for a water tower can be constructed in a style nearly identical to Pennsy steel types. A beautiful kit, when completed. I built one for the club, substituting strip metal for the styrene for the safety ladder to make it more rigid. The Walthers steel tank is similar, though cruder. Bob Zoeller --part1_13.1b5fa483.2bd0305b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are up to a crafst= man kit, the Diamond Scale coaling tower is very similar to those seen in ph= otos of PRR small terminals.  The Tichy kit for a water tower can be co= nstructed in a style nearly identical to Pennsy steel types.  A beautif= ul kit, when completed.  I built one for the club, substituting strip m= etal for the styrene for the safety ladder to make it more rigid.  The=20= Walthers steel tank is similar, though cruder.

Bob Zoeller --part1_13.1b5fa483.2bd0305b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:44:55 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Homasote Roadbed For the past 15 years, the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum has been treating all Homasote prior to installation with three coats of shellac cut 1 part shellac to 3 parts thinner (first two coats) ans 1 part shellac to 1 part thinner for the third coat. This has worked well and there have been no problems with the Homasote which was properly sealed. On the other hand, when some members have taken shortcuts (cutting the Homasote for some reason) and not sealed the cut surfaces, after a few years it warps, buckles etc. The result is a very realistic model of PC trackwork. Needless to say this has resulted in the need to do major repairs in the affected areas. The moral -- seal it and seal it again or pay the price. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:59:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Bachman Diner Hello y'all, I see we've covered the Bachman P70 and Z74 recently, how about the diner? Using the latest resource, Vol 36, number 1 of the Keystone (Spring 2003), my Bachman diner most closely represents a D78C, as built, which is confirmed by the car number(8016). The Bachman model underbody details conform nicely to the as built photos of the D78C. I find in the Keystone that there were but 3 D78C cars constructed, all in 1929-30, intended for Lines West (8016, 8017, 8018). All three were airconditioned on 5/26/32, which almost certainly resulted in altered underbody details. Unfortunately, there are no shots or drawings of D78CR cars in the article. So, a classic Botchman again...we have 70 D78, 13 D78A and 34 D78B, and they pick the class with 3 cars in it, and model a version good to mid 1932! Actually, the news isn't quite that bad as the Botchman model does appear to have the correct window arrangement for a D78BR, so with completely new underbody details and some minor roof modifications (vents), the car can represent a D78BR or perhaps a D78CR(?) diner post mid 1932. Happy Rails? (Time to get out the razor saw!) Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner --- "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Hello y'all, > > I see we've covered the Bachman P70 and Z74 > recently, how about the diner? > > Check the archives for my question about and the answers concerning the Bachmann diner, posted around the 10th of February of this year if I remember. By the way, in reference to my questions concerning Z74 business cars, I received no response to my general question about who was permitted use of business cars and for what purposes. Any info on this question? Thanks Ron > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bachman Diner Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:36:22 -0500 Is the Bachmann observation a business car? I don't have mine handy, but I thought it was a 10-section obsrvation lounge. -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 3:14 PM To: Bruce F. Smith; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner --- "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Hello y'all, > > I see we've covered the Bachman P70 and Z74 > recently, how about the diner? > > Check the archives for my question about and the answers concerning the Bachmann diner, posted around the 10th of February of this year if I remember. By the way, in reference to my questions concerning Z74 business cars, I received no response to my general question about who was permitted use of business cars and for what purposes. Any info on this question? Thanks Ron > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] Bachman Diner Marvin See recent postings and answers on this question. General opinion seems to be that it represents a Class Z74 business car, but an amalgam of types. The window arrangement on one side is one window off from being a Z74C, the window arrangement on the other side is accurate for a Z74D, and the interior supplied is more or less a fantasy. I have no information concerning the underbody details. Ron --- "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > Is the Bachmann observation a business car? I don't > have mine handy, but I > thought it was a 10-section obsrvation lounge. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 3:14 PM > To: Bruce F. Smith; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner > > > > --- "Bruce F. Smith" > wrote: > > Hello y'all, > > > > I see we've covered the Bachman P70 and Z74 > > recently, how about the diner? > > > > Check the archives for my question about and the > answers concerning the Bachmann diner, posted around > the 10th of February of this year if I remember. > > By the way, in reference to my questions concerning > Z74 business cars, I received no response to my > general question about who was permitted use of > business cars and for what purposes. Any info on > this > question? > > Thanks > > Ron > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:41:14 -0400 Ronald, Depending on the era, Superintendents and above were assigned business cars which they used to tour their divisions with their staff. After World War II, business cars on the PRR were generally under the control of headquarters and fell into two categories, those used to inspect the railroad, used by General Managers and their staff, and those used for entertainment, used by the Vice Presidents, Traffic, Operations, and Public Affairs. Nothing impresses politicians like a trip in a private car. It impresses shippers, too. I know from personal experience, having been a guest of CSXT on a private train made up of CSXT's business car fleet from Jacksonville, FL, to Washington, DC, in 1991. Several CR cars were in the train. Theoretically, both Sales and Operation executives below the Vice Presidential level could use the cars, but their budgets would be billed for the use. The same applied to the company aircraft (a DC3). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" To: "Bruce F. Smith" ; Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner > > --- "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > > Hello y'all, > > > > I see we've covered the Bachman P70 and Z74 > > recently, how about the diner? > > > > Check the archives for my question about and the > answers concerning the Bachmann diner, posted around > the 10th of February of this year if I remember. > > By the way, in reference to my questions concerning > Z74 business cars, I received no response to my > general question about who was permitted use of > business cars and for what purposes. Any info on this > question? > > Thanks > > Ron > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:54:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Education --part1_18e.18f961b4.2bd098bb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/2003 9:03:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: > I pretend no expertise in this, but wouldn't setting the cranks 90 > degrees apart (on a two-cylinder engine) be required in order to > obtain four evenly-spaced power strokes per driver revolution? Not > to mention the exhaust sounds; if the cranks were set at 60 > degrees, then the exhaust would sound like . . > > chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff . . . .. > > If the power strokes were not evenly spaced, wouldn't the > gross vibration be inevitably worse? > And thus, one of the arguments for three-cylinder engines. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_18e.18f961b4.2bd098bb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/17/2= 003 9:03:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net writes:


I pretend no expertise in t= his, but wouldn't setting the cranks 90=20
degrees apart (on a two-cylinder engine) be required in order to=20
obtain four evenly-spaced power strokes per driver revolution?  Not= =20
to mention the exhaust sounds; if the cranks were set at 60=20
degrees, then the exhaust would sound like . .=20

chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff (pause) chuff-chuff . . . ..=20

If the power strokes were not evenly spaced, wouldn't the=20
gross vibration be inevitably worse?


And thus, one of the arguments for three-cylinder engines.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_18e.18f961b4.2bd098bb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:53:19 -0500 Hi Doug--Let me add a coal tower to the list Bruce provided: the Walthers Concrete Coaling Tower, 933-3042. I have not actually seen this tower model, but from photos it is very similar to the South Amboy tower. If the coal chutes and other details are a bit crude, the details from the Tichy tower are available separately and are exquisite; they could be used to make a very nice model. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:13:54 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - after a wet spell From: Beth Caples Sorry to hear all the "horror stories" about flooding due to plumbing. I was a maintenance crew chief for ten years at an apartment complex of about 500+ apartments. Seen it all . Spent many a day cleaning up floods from broken hoses and other problems. My best advice is to change out your hoses every 6 to 8 years depending on the type of hose. If it is the usual rubber hose. Feel it for sponginess or look for bulges on a regular basis. If you find this Change it A.S.A.P. I use steel braided hoses on all my appliances and my sinks and toilets. I haven't had to change one out in 10 years. They are more costly but well worth it. (cheap insurance against disaster) I only had to change a couple of these out at the apartments due to manufacturer defect. Not bad considering how many we installed! Hope this helps, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:11:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F-30d --part1_174.199fa5ed.2bd0e31a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ijerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The side rails were perforated I beams. I just happen to know a laser cutter > that ALREADY makes these in HO just for the Bowser F30! > Yes, Jerry he make them for: Stan Rydarowicz 165 Manchester Ave. Youngstown Ohio 44509 330-799-5321 I would hope that he doesn't breech his agreement. Stan also offers the correct decals for the car(s). Greg Martin --part1_174.199fa5ed.2bd0e31a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ijerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


The side rails were perforated=20= I beams. I just happen to know a laser cutter that ALREADY makes these in HO= just for the Bowser F30!


Yes, Jerry he make them for:

Stan Rydarowicz
165 Manchester Ave.
Youngstown Ohio 44509
330-799-5321

I would hope that he doesn't breech his agreement. Stan also offers the corr= ect decals for the car(s).

Greg Martin --part1_174.199fa5ed.2bd0e31a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:43:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service --part1_f5.2c06e8a4.2bd0f88c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think Dr. Smith will mind if I jump in here and my 2=A2 worth.... > Doug asks: > >I'm doing an installation on my PRR layout of a light engine=20 > service/hostling facility and need some specifics on what's out=20 > there/available for: > >coaling towers > It is helpful to have an actual facility in mind sometimes...for a true=20 > small scale facility, one of my favorites is Watkins Glen, NY, where=20 > helpers on the Elmira Branch were based... >=20 > A single or double track Fairbanks Morse wooden tower might work...example= s=20 > are: > Campbell 357 Coaling Station > Gloor Craft 4001 Coaling Tower > I'm not sure if either of these are strictly PRR prototypes, but PRR did=20 > buy FM coaling stations. The Tichy 400 ton coal dock is WAY too big for=20 > you...Consider too the idea of a bucket crane and coal hopper on a=20 > siding...a common way of dealing with this problem. A third approach is=20 > the FM ash hoist...a single bucket "skip" in a metal frame tower such as=20 > was seen at Thorndale's helper track and a number of other small PRR=20 > facilities...got to scratchbuild that one . FM manufactured "kits" of coaling towers for the RR's and they came in a=20 variety of sizes. Bachmann makes an example of a FM coaling tower that=20 followed the drawings done by the great modeler Wayne Wesloski in RMC. I=20 know because I took his drawings and did an article for RMC myself of a=20 diorama that I still use for my modeling photography. Wayne's article was a=20 great help as he had excellent prototype photos to work from. I did a lot of= =20 suggested upgade to the very basic Bachmann kit to bring the level of detail= =20 to my comfort level and time has taken it's toll on the poor thing. I believ= e=20 it represented an FM 50 ton coal tower, but that is from memory. Consider=20 this as a good starting point. The D&RGW used the FM Coaling tower like the=20 Campbell's kit represents, which was duplicated in plastic by TYCO and Model= =20 Power.=20 >=20 > >Water towers > Lots of variety here too...a small wooden tank or a larger metal tank, or=20 > even a cistern/tank at a distance and just the spout at trackside (which=20 > would be my approach!). Again, not sure if any of these are strictly=20 > PRR... American Model Builders 154 50,000 Gallon Wood Railroad Water=20 > Tank Campbell 356 Wood Water Tower Sheepscot Scale Products 1080 =20 > 50,000-Gallon Wood Water Tower Walthers 2800 series Wood Water tank Tichy=20 > water column. Note that there are brass models of specific PRR water tower= s=20 > available. I personally gravitate towards styrene so the Water tower of choice for me i= s=20 the Atlas as it is an actual PRR prototype and as Bruce mentions you can use= =20 it as a cistern and use a water column. This can create a cluster of=20 buildings which can be a value in scenicking a small space. =20 > >Sanding facilities > Again, not sure of any specific PRR prototypes but Campbell has a nice kit= . Again, the Bachmann kit contains a sanding facility representing the typical= =20 FM type and is about the same thing as the Campbell and if you are modeling=20 the atypical there are a few things that need fixin" on the Bachmann but=20 nuttin' major. It is just like, "well that makes sense, without that the=20 walls of the sand pit would fall over..." And on the coal tower replacing th= e=20 metal threaded tie irons with wire does make a big difference. Just typical=20 fun stuff... Hey it gives us a chance to use our craftsmanship... >=20 > >ash pits > Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS=20 > Limited) and a hopper car are all you need I believe at one time there was a company that produced an ashpit but I woul= d=20 have to dig into the gray matter to remember who.=20 >=20 > >Single stall engine house. > Not aware of any PRR prototypes/models (i.e., does the PRR have a single=20 > stall engine house for steam anywhere on the system?) Me thinks the let=20 > 'em sit outside most times! None that I know of but the new Atlas always "reminded" me of the roundhouse= =20 at Hagerstown, MD. I actually will likely use this kit on my layout. It is=20 just a couple extra stalls... I would consider this one.=20 > So to sum it up...I'm not sure that there is a lot of specific PRR stuff o= ut=20 > there of the nature you are looking for...so how to make your facility=20 > appear to be part of the PRR? >=20 > 1) PRR locos go a LONG way to doing that! > 2) PRR logos...perhaps a sign with a Keystone denoting the name of the=20 > yard, or engine facility. > 3) PRR MOW equipment parked at the facility > 4) PRR two or three pipe fence protecting that concrete culvert > 5) PRR position light signals out there on the main... >=20 > Happy Rails > Bruce Doug, Bruce and all, I think there is more PRR specific "stuff" out there=20 than we think and remember, just as Bruce has mentioned above you want to=20 capture the signature of the PRR, while maintaining your sanity. As well=20 regarded as the RPI layout is the NEB&W is still a fantasy road capturing th= e=20 flavor but not duplicating and exact spot. And there are other layouts that=20 convince us we are looking at the NP/GN/UP/MILW in Tacoma, and the SP/ATSF=20 over Tehachapi without duplicating it exactly, more like convincingly. Greg Martin=20 --part1_f5.2c06e8a4.2bd0f88c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think Dr. Smith will mind if I jump in here an= d my 2=A2 worth....

Doug asks:
>I'm doing an installation on my PRR layout of a light engine service/hos= tling facility and need some specifics on what's out there/available for:
>coaling towers
It is helpful to have an actual facility in mind sometimes...for a true smal= l scale facility, one of my favorites is Watkins Glen, NY, where helpers on=20= the Elmira Branch were based...

A single or double track Fairbanks Morse wooden tower might work...examples=20= are:
Campbell 357    Coaling Station
Gloor Craft 4001 Coaling Tower
I'm not sure if either of these are strictly PRR prototypes, but PRR did buy= FM coaling stations.  The Tichy 400 ton coal dock is WAY too big for y= ou...Consider too the idea of a bucket crane and coal hopper on a siding...a= common way of dealing with this problem.  A third approach is the FM a= sh hoist...a single bucket "skip" in a metal frame tower such as was seen at= Thorndale's helper track and a number of other small PRR facilities...got t= o scratchbuild that one <G>.


FM manufactured "kits" of co= aling towers for the RR's and they came in a variety of sizes. Bachmann make= s an example of a FM coaling tower that followed the drawings done by the gr= eat modeler Wayne Wesloski in RMC.  I know because I took his drawings=20= and did an article for RMC myself of a diorama that I still use for my model= ing photography. Wayne's article was a great help as he had excellent protot= ype photos to work from. I did a lot of suggested upgade to the very basic B= achmann kit to bring the level of detail to my comfort level and time has ta= ken it's toll on the poor thing. I believe it represented an FM 50 ton coal=20= tower, but that is from memory. Consider this as a good starting point. The=20= D&RGW used the FM Coaling tower like the Campbell's kit represents, whic= h was duplicated in plastic by TYCO and Model Power.


>Water towers
Lots of variety here too...a small wooden tank or a larger metal tank, or ev= en a cistern/tank at a distance and just the spout at trackside (which would= be my approach!).  Again, not sure if any of these are strictly PRR...= American Model Builders 154    50,000 Gallon Wood Railroad W= ater Tank Campbell 356    Wood Water Tower Sheepscot Scale Pr= oducts 1080    50,000-Gallon Wood Water Tower Walthers 2800 s= eries Wood Water tank Tichy water column. Note that there are brass models o= f specific PRR water towers available.


I personally gravitate towar= ds styrene so the Water tower of choice for me is the Atlas as it is an actu= al PRR prototype and as Bruce mentions you can use it as a cistern and use a= water column. This can create a cluster of buildings which can be a value i= n scenicking a small space. 



>Sanding facilities
Again, not sure of any specific PRR prototypes but Campbell has a nice kit.<= /FONT>


Again, the Bachmann kit cont= ains a sanding facility representing the typical FM type and is about the sa= me thing as the Campbell and if you are modeling the atypical there are a fe= w things that need fixin" on the Bachmann but nuttin' major. It is just like= , "well that makes sense, without that the walls of the sand pit would fall=20= over..." And on the coal tower replacing the metal threaded tie irons with w= ire does make a big difference. Just typical fun stuff... Hey it gives us a=20= chance to use our craftsmanship...


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS=20= Limited) and a hopper car are all you need


I believe at one time there=20= was a company that produced an ashpit but I would have to dig into the gray=20= matter to remember who.


>Single stall engine house.
Not aware of any PRR prototypes/models (i.e., does the PRR have a single sta= ll engine house for steam anywhere on the system?)  Me thinks the let '= em sit outside most times!

None that I know of but the=20= new Atlas always "reminded" me of the roundhouse at Hagerstown, MD. I actual= ly will likely use this kit on my layout. It is just a couple extra stalls..= . I would consider this one.

So to sum it up...I'm not sure=20= that there is a lot of specific PRR stuff out there of the nature you are lo= oking for...so how to make your facility appear to be part of the PRR?

1) PRR locos go a LONG way to doing that!
2) PRR logos...perhaps a sign with a Keystone denoting the name of the yard,= or engine facility.
3)  PRR MOW equipment parked at the facility
4)  PRR two or three pipe fence protecting that concrete culvert
5) PRR position light signals out there on the main...

Happy Rails
Bruce


Doug, Bruce and all, I think there is more PRR specific "stuff" out there th= an we think and remember, just as Bruce has mentioned above you want to capt= ure the signature of the PRR, while maintaining your sanity. As well regarde= d as the RPI layout is the NEB&W is still a fantasy road capturing the f= lavor but not duplicating and exact spot. And there are other layouts that c= onvince us we are looking at the NP/GN/UP/MILW in Tacoma, and the SP/ATSF ov= er Tehachapi without duplicating it exactly, more like convincingly.

Greg Martin --part1_f5.2c06e8a4.2bd0f88c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:55:34 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C30590.A7F84100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug, Bruce, Greg and list: There were small engine houses on the PRR. I don't have any information = on single stall facilities, but there are drawings of engine houses with = two or three parallel stalls. I can't tell whether or not all the = engine houses shown in the drawings were actually built, but here are = some notes I took many years ago, when I last saw the drawings. The = information is location, date of drawing, siding material, number of = stalls, length and width of building: Washington, Pa., 7-1901, German siding, 3 stalls, 150' by 54' Irwin, Pa., 4-1899, brick, 3 stalls, 147' by 48' Phillipston, Pa., 6-1924, novelty siding, 2 stalls, 172' by 50' Driftwood, Pa., 8-1911, board & batten, 2 stalls, 80' by 60' South Fork, Pa., 10-1916, brick and board & batten, 3 stalls, 146' 8" by = 67' 2" Dock Junction, Pa., 11-1918, board & batten, 2 stalls, 115' 6" by 44' Perhaps others on the list can say whether or not these structures were = actually built and, if so, about how long they lasted. I assume these drawings are now at Lewistown ..... somewhere. It will = be several years before we get to that part of the collection in the = archiving work. By the way, I think Bruce is correct that locomotives were left outside = most of the time. The purpose of small engine houses (and large = roundhouses, too) was more to provide an out-of-the-weather place to = work on the locomotives, rather than to provide a parking place. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service >Single stall engine house. Not aware of any PRR prototypes/models (i.e., does the PRR have a = single stall engine house for steam anywhere on the system?) Me thinks = the let 'em sit outside most times! None that I know of but the new Atlas always "reminded" me of the = roundhouse at Hagerstown, MD. I actually will likely use this kit on my = layout. It is just a couple extra stalls... I would consider this one.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C30590.A7F84100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Doug, Bruce, Greg and = list:
 
There were small engine houses on the = PRR.  I=20 don't have any information on single stall facilities, but there are = drawings of=20 engine houses with two or three parallel stalls.  I can't tell = whether or=20 not all the engine houses shown in the drawings were actually built, but = here=20 are some notes I took many years ago, when I last saw the = drawings.  The=20 information is location, date of drawing, siding material, number of = stalls,=20 length and width of building:
 
Washington, Pa., 7-1901, German siding, = 3 stalls,=20 150' by 54'
Irwin, Pa., 4-1899, brick, 3 stalls, = 147' by=20 48'
Phillipston, Pa., 6-1924, novelty = siding, 2 stalls,=20 172' by 50'
Driftwood, Pa., 8-1911, board & = batten, 2=20 stalls, 80' by 60'
South Fork, Pa., 10-1916, brick and = board &=20 batten, 3 stalls, 146' 8" by 67' 2"
Dock Junction, Pa., 11-1918, board = & batten, 2=20 stalls, 115' 6" by 44'
 
Perhaps others on the list can say = whether or not=20 these structures were actually built and, if so, about how long they=20 lasted.
 
I assume these drawings are now at = Lewistown .....=20 somewhere.  It will be several years before we get to that part of = the=20 collection in the archiving work.
 
By the way, I think Bruce is correct = that=20 locomotives were left outside most of the time.  The purpose of = small=20 engine houses (and large roundhouses, too) was more to provide an=20 out-of-the-weather place to work on the locomotives, rather than to = provide=20 a parking place.
 
Bob Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 = 2:43=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine=20 Service

>Single stall engine house.
Not aware of any = PRR=20 prototypes/models (i.e., does the PRR have a single stall engine = house for=20 steam anywhere on the system?)  Me thinks the let 'em sit = outside most=20 times!
None that I know of but the new Atlas always = "reminded" me=20 of the roundhouse at Hagerstown, MD. I actually will likely use this = kit on my=20 layout. It is just a couple extra stalls... I would consider this one. =
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C30590.A7F84100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:07:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/18/03 --part1_69.3747a247.2bd16099_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/18/03 1:11:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Re: PRR-Talk Digest - after a wet spell > by "Beth Caples" > Very good advice. However, the best advice, in my opinion, is to shut off the water when not using the washing machine. I had a single handle valve installed when our house was built 26 years ago. However, it took a minor leak to get my wife to use the valve. Since the leak, she uses the valve faithfully (I think). That said, an almost foolproof method is to spend some big bucks and install an automatic electronic shutoff valve; especially if the washing machine is located over the train room (or other finished room). Bob Martin --part1_69.3747a247.2bd16099_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/18/0= 3 1:11:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Re: PRR-Talk Digest - after= a wet spell
         by "Beth Caples"=20= <caples5@juno.com>


Very good advice.  However, the best advice, in my opinion, is to s= hut off the water when not using the washing machine.  I had a single h= andle valve installed when our house was built 26 years ago.  However,=20= it took a minor leak to get my wife to use the valve.  Since the leak,=20= she uses the valve faithfully (I think).  That said, an almost foolproo= f method is to spend some big bucks and install an automatic electronic shut= off valve; especially if the washing machine is located over the train room=20= (or other finished room).

Bob Martin --part1_69.3747a247.2bd16099_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/18/03 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:40:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C30596.E06059F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why don't you guys get "creative" and install a working train washer , if your layout is beneath the laundry room, so that your GG-1's will have an excuse for operating in a squeaky clean (and unprototypical) appearance! You seem to have all the right resources at hand! Just a thought. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cprrboss@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:07 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/18/03 In a message dated 4/18/03 1:11:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - after a wet spell by "Beth Caples" Very good advice. However, the best advice, in my opinion, is to shut off the water when not using the washing machine. I had a single handle valve installed when our house was built 26 years ago. However, it took a minor leak to get my wife to use the valve. Since the leak, she uses the valve faithfully (I think). That said, an almost foolproof method is to spend some big bucks and install an automatic electronic shutoff valve; especially if the washing machine is located over the train room (or other finished room). Bob Martin ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C30596.E06059F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Why=20 don't you guys get "creative" and install a working train washer , = if your=20 layout is beneath the laundry room, so that your GG-1's will have = an excuse=20 for operating in a squeaky clean (and unprototypical) = appearance!  You=20 seem to have all the right resources at hand!
 
Just a=20 thought.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 Cprrboss@aol.com
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:07=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: = PRR-Talk=20 Digest - 04/18/03

In a message dated 4/18/03 1:11:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Re: PRR-Talk Digest - after a wet spell=20
         by "Beth = Caples"=20 <caples5@juno.com>


Very good advice. =  However, the best advice, in my opinion, is to shut off the = water when=20 not using the washing machine.  I had a single handle valve = installed=20 when our house was built 26 years ago.  However, it took a minor = leak to=20 get my wife to use the valve.  Since the leak, she uses the valve = faithfully (I think).  That said, an almost foolproof method is = to spend=20 some big bucks and install an automatic electronic shutoff valve; = especially=20 if the washing machine is located over the train room (or other = finished=20 room).

Bob Martin ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C30596.E06059F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: RE: [PRR] Great idea! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:43:54 -0500 Bill, You ALMOST caused my screen to get "washed" with coffee!!! Great idea.....gonna move the washer OVER the loco service facility. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:40:05 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/18/03 > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C30596.E06059F0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Why don't you guys get "creative" and install a working train washer > , if your layout is beneath the laundry room, so that your GG-1's > will have an excuse for operating in a squeaky clean (and > unprototypical) appearance! You seem to have all the right > resources at hand! <<>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:49:29 -0400 I have an aerial photo of Dock Junction on the E&P on my site at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/djyard2.gif The building you have listed may be the white building right of center. Judging by the 40' boxcars nearby, it appears to be about the size indicated by the drawings, although it looks to be a single stall, not double. This photo was probably taken in the late '40s, and may have been modified since it was built. I'm sure Al Buchan will know. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Johnson" To: Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Doug, Bruce, Greg and list: There were small engine houses on the PRR. I don't have any information on single stall facilities, but there are drawings of engine houses with two or three parallel stalls. I can't tell whether or not all the engine houses shown in the drawings were actually built, but here are some notes I took many years ago, when I last saw the drawings. The information is location, date of drawing, siding material, number of stalls, length and width of building: Washington, Pa., 7-1901, German siding, 3 stalls, 150' by 54' Irwin, Pa., 4-1899, brick, 3 stalls, 147' by 48' Phillipston, Pa., 6-1924, novelty siding, 2 stalls, 172' by 50' Driftwood, Pa., 8-1911, board & batten, 2 stalls, 80' by 60' South Fork, Pa., 10-1916, brick and board & batten, 3 stalls, 146' 8" by 67' 2" Dock Junction, Pa., 11-1918, board & batten, 2 stalls, 115' 6" by 44' Perhaps others on the list can say whether or not these structures were actually built and, if so, about how long they lasted. ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:19:58 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum P70 Pat, Perhaps the biggest improvement is in the roof. That's the most visible part of the model. As Bachmann modeled it (or copied it from ECW), it's a model of an non AC car. That's why it has all those vents on the roof. However, the prototype had an electrical bus running down the roof connecting to all the fans under the vents. There was a junction box alongside each vent thru which the bus ran. The bus started and ended near the vestibules in similar junction boxes. I have modeled these features on all my non AC P70s (mostly ECW). I use very small channel mounted flanges down on the roof for the junction boxes. Find a good foto in book showing the roof. Early ACed P70s had only one vent in the center of the car and a "stub" where the 10 original vents had been. That's easy to do, but the underbody will then also require substantial rework. They had some very distinctive underbody fittings for the PRR's ice activated AC. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Pat Egan wrote: > I have several of the Spectrum P70s, as well as some of the other > cars, and I am curious about what details I can add to them. I am > interested in the era around 1950. Obviously fixed couplers, > diaphragms, steam and air hoses, and cut levers would help the ends. > Anything else on the rest of the car? I am not trying for contest > quality, just some improvements. What is an appropriate color for the > interior walls, and for the seats? Pat EganChicago ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:33:06 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one Doug Drew wrote: (in part) > ...More modern types of PRR 40' box carsare in those shots (not the > rounded-roof variety, though), with the shadowkeystone lettering. They look > like PS-1s, but they're in the distance and I can't tell for sure -- the doors > are wider than some of the other cars and they don't look like PS-1 doors that > I've seen. Did Pennsy own PS-1 boxcars? > Exuberantly yours, > Doug Drew > Doug, Those were probably X43s. There were numerous variant representing the output of several builders. Some came with 7 and 8 foot doors. Branchline make proper models of all the variants in the "Blueprint" series. While these are not shake the box kits, they are not very difficult to build and produce a beautiful and accurate car. If you must have a good looking shake the box kit, try Branchline's new "Yardmaster" series. There are far superior to Athearn's ancient stuff, but I have not looked at them in detail to see how accurately the model one of the X43 variants. The PRR did have PS-1s (X48) but what you saw was probably not them. They only had 12 (I think). They had cushion underframes and were in captive service for some particular shipper/receiver -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:01:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service In a message dated 4/18/03 1:53:19 AM Central Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << I believe at one time there was a company that produced an ashpit but I would have to dig into the gray matter to remember who. >> Diamond Scale. I don't know if the successor owner still offers it. If you can find it in an old Walthers catalog you can do a search for it on their present site to see if they have one laying around in the warehouse. If we didn't throw away the box, I can see if we have the number at the club (Would have to dig too far into my storage locker to find my kit). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:04:59 -0400 Andy Miller wrote: "If you must have a good looking shake the box kit, try Branchline's new "Yardmaster" series. There are far superior to Athearn's ancient stuff, but I have not looked at them in detail to see how accurately they model one of the X43 variants." They don't - Branchline's Yardmaster kit accurately models 10 ft IH 1937 AAR boxcars with 6 ft doors and 4/5 Dreadnaught Ends, W-section (rounded) corner posts - the vast majority of these cars (but of which the Pennsy owned exactly zero.) However, the Yardmaster kits are perfect for rounding out your foreign road boxcar fleet quickly and will not look bad at all if you couple them next to a Kadee PS-1. The venerable Athearn 40 ft is only completely accurate for three roads (if you ignore the detail shortcomings) - IC, Soo, and DSS&A. "The PRR did have PS-1s (X48) but what you saw was probably not them. They only had 12 (I think). They had cushion underframes and were in captive service for some particular shipper/receiver." PRR 47000-47019, Class X48, 20 cars equipped with P-S cushioned underframes. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:21:46 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner No, it is definitely a PRR Z-74 variant. "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > Is the Bachmann observation a business car? I don't have mine handy, but I > thought it was a 10-section obsrvation lounge.-- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:45:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0261_01C305A8.76992B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary Mitner) = this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item for = their layout. Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it = will grow and bring forth fruit! Lew >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS = Limited) and a hopper car are all you need ------=_NextPart_000_0261_01C305A8.76992B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends:
 
In the last several months (except = for=20 comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone = suggested=20 scratchbuilding an item for their layout.  Maybe we can nurture = this=20 comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth = fruit!
 
Lew
 


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene sides for = concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all = you=20 need
------=_NextPart_000_0261_01C305A8.76992B20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:28:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum P70 Pat asked: >I have several of the Spectrum P70s, as well as some of the other cars, >and I am curious about what details I can add to them. I am interested in >the era around 1950. Obviously fixed couplers, diaphragms, steam and air >hoses, and cut levers would help the ends. Anything else on the rest of >the car? I am not trying for contest quality, just some improvements. >What is an appropriate color for the interior walls, and for the seats? I was all set to answer regarding A/C when Andy did that for me . I am thinking about opening a few windows on mine, since they are non-AC cars, but that's a bit of work...About the only other thing I would do for the Bachman P70, would be to add some window shades and weather it. I may model one specific P70 as a POW car since my era is WWII. These cars had blocks of wood nailed to the sashes to allow the window to open about 4 inches and then stop. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum P70 > I may model one specific P70 as a POW car since my > era is WWII. These cars > had blocks of wood nailed to the sashes to allow the > window to open about 4 > inches and then stop. > > Bruce Any photos of these POW cars anywhere online? Were they marked in anyway or otherwise visibly different from a "normal" P70 other than the wood blocks you mention? Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:54:51 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Bob and all, Jeeze the engine house at Irwin, PA sparks my interest probably because it was Brick but I sure would like to see drawings of these, especially Irwin, PA. With good drawings and a little time I bet we could get Dayna to produce them from a well set of masterrs and for those who like novelty siding (aka clappboard siding)would be a nice kit as well. I just wonder if they went the way of Wellsville, Ohio. Greg Martin > There were small engine houses on the PRR. I don't have any information on single stall facilities, but there are drawings of engine houses with two or three parallel stalls. I can't tell whether or not all the engine houses shown in the drawings were actually built, but here are some notes I took many years ago, when I last saw the drawings. The information is location, date of drawing, siding material, number of stalls, length and width of building: > > Washington, Pa., 7-1901, German siding, 3 stalls, 150' by 54' > Irwin, Pa., 4-1899, brick, 3 stalls, 147' by 48' > Phillipston, Pa., 6-1924, novelty siding, 2 stalls, 172' by 50' > Driftwood, Pa., 8-1911, board & batten, 2 stalls, 80' by 60' > South Fork, Pa., 10-1916, brick and board & batten, 3 stalls, 146' 8" by 67' 2" > Dock Junction, Pa., 11-1918, board & batten, 2 stalls, 115' > 6" by 44' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:05:15 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C305E5.D3DD4810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lew, Not a bad idea.......=20 Patrick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Friends: In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary Mitner) = this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item for = their layout. Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it = will grow and bring forth fruit! Lew >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or = SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C305E5.D3DD4810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lew,
 
Not a bad idea.......
 
Patrick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 = 5:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine = Service

Friends:
 
In the last several months = (except for=20 comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone = suggested=20 scratchbuilding an item for their layout.  Maybe we can nurture = this=20 comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth = fruit!
 
Lew
 


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene sides = for=20 concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are = all you=20 need
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C305E5.D3DD4810-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:13:52 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Hey Yuze Gize.. You know as I was writing my message late last night I was going to direct my question to Mr.Z as I had a funny feeling he would know the answer to this one and by josh he did...It the God's honest truth I figured he would know! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service List, What about the engine house on the Western Allegheny Branch. Was this a PRR design? It was only 1 or 2 stall and was made of wood, if I recall photos correctly.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:34:30 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 >Bruce > >Any photos of these POW cars anywhere online? Were >they marked in anyway or otherwise visibly different >from a "normal" P70 other than the wood blocks you >mention? > >Ron Ron, Bob Netzlof posted this link way back in Jan 2002...its from the U.S. Army Signal Corps archive http://image.vtls.com/cgi-bin/photo.cgi/VTLS/SC/04/071 I commented at the time: [It] appears to be a PRR P-70 or similar coach (non airconditioned) with Futura lettering. As soon as I saw the image, I thought it was a POW train as the MP has an automatic weapon at the ready, the hair cuts are too long and the windows are all open the same small amount. A little searching came up with the following: Newport News, Va. : U.S. Army Signal Corps, Hampton Roads Port of Embarkation, May 29 1943. Official photograph. Caption: Pvt. M. A. Sabol, 33262246, Uniontown, Pa., and Lt. C. A. Newton, 1796141, Moultrie, Ga., of 725th Military Police Battalion, assigned to guard Italian prisoners of war just arrived from Tunisia. Note safety blocks on upper part of wooden sash. I would add now that I doubt that these trains were too well marked, although the Geneva convention may actually specify some marking. Doors/car sides might be marked to discourage civilians from getting too close. Distinguishing features of a POW movement would be the blocks on the windows, armed gaurds in the vestibules and perhaps a sleeper for the guards who are off duty. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 List, During the Korean War my dad was first stationed at Ft Dix and then went onto New Cumberland near Harrisburg. He was an MP at that time and his job was to escort Prisoners of some kind to the trains. He enjoyed his job as it was mixed in with Trains. I never heard him talk much about this though. Sadly the only pics he had taken was him in uniform on standing on duty. I guess it would have been pretty hard for him to pul a camera out from under his uniform and snap a quick pic of anything interesting trackside.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service --- TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Jeeze the engine house at Irwin, PA sparks my interest probably > because it was Brick but I sure would like to see drawings of > these, especially Irwin, PA.... > > Irwin, Pa., 4-1899, brick, 3 stalls, 147' by 48' Somewhere in this list's archive, under the subject "Youghiogheny Branch through the ages" are some dates and other data regarding the Youghiogheny RR which later became the PRR's Youghiogheny Branch. If I'm remembering correctly, that 1899 date seems about right for PRR's acquisition of the YRR. The Youghiogheny RR had, I believe, a car shop at or near Irwin and had locomotives, so I would suppose they had an engine house. Thus, the engine house in question was probably built by YRR, or Penn Gas Coal, to their own design and might not resemble any PRR-desined engine house. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JRobb123@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:06:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine Education --part1_172.1959651d.2bd1dede_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Great Western Railway of England designed and manufactured many FOUR cylinder simple expansion steam locomotives of the "King" and "Castle" class. One of the reasons for four cylinders was the ability to increase the per driver axle weight without increasing track damage due to the inherent better balancing of reciprocating parts in a rigid frame locomotive of more than two cylinders. Baldwin Locomotive Works Number 60,000 , now on display in the Franklin Institute, is a three cylinder locomotive due to the fact that the piston rod thrust if divided between just two cylinders would require heavier main rods hence more difficult to counterbalance than dividing the power between 3 cylinders. The Pennsy T1 Class was divided into two completely independent power groups with the exact same goal in mind-lighter reciprocating parts mean less rail pounding. --part1_172.1959651d.2bd1dede_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Great Western Railway of England designed and manu= factured many FOUR cylinder simple expansion steam locomotives of the "King"= and "Castle" class. One of the reasons for four cylinders was the ability t= o increase the per driver axle weight without increasing track damage due to= the inherent better balancing of reciprocating parts in a rigid frame locom= otive of more than two cylinders.
Baldwin Locomotive Works Number 60,000 , now on display in the Franklin Inst= itute, is a three cylinder locomotive due to the fact that the piston rod th= rust if divided between just two cylinders would require heavier main rods h= ence more difficult to counterbalance than dividing the power between 3 cyli= nders. The Pennsy T1 Class was divided into two completely independent power= groups with the exact same goal in mind-lighter reciprocating parts mean le= ss rail pounding. --part1_172.1959651d.2bd1dede_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:52:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 In a message dated 4/18/03 4:04:06 PM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << He was an MP at that time and his job was to escort Prisoners of some kind to the trains. >> My brother was in the Korean war. The prisoners he guarded were Americans---GIs who had strayed from the straight and narrow for one offense or another. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 Bob, I think you are right about the US prisoner type. Not sure if they even brought Korean Prisoners to the states? It is hard to believe my Dad escorted these types to the Trains. He was only 130 lbs or so. I guess they honored that MP Arm Band. I don't think he ever road the Prisoner Train, just escorted to them. He is gone now so can't shed much more than that....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:39:17 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Dock Junction EH was Engine Service Re: Bob J's > Dock Junction, Pa., 11-1918, board & batten, 2 stalls, 115' 6" by 44' Re: Jerry S's > I have an aerial photo of Dock Junction on the E&P on my site A 1908 PRR listing of LW engine houses shows Dock Junction to have a 7 stall frame roundhouse built in 1903 with 75'3" stalls. It was authorized to replace the existing EH in Erie (at the end of the City Branch), which according to the August 29, 1901, correspondence was "worn out." BTW the new 7 stall frame EH was estimated to cost $11,000. A later document, listing existing and proposed engine houses, which has the date cutoff but I can tell from the entries is ca. 1917/18, shows the extant 7 stall EH with 78' stalls and a proposed 2 stall 115' EH. A handwritten notation shows it as "in service." My assumption is with the class N locomotives primarily in ore service the length of the stalls in the existing roundhouse was inadequate and this new one was proposed. >From an operations standpoint it most likely would have been placed off the turntable, which begs the question, was it a two bay radial extension of the 7 stall roundhouse or a straight two track EH? According to Bob's dimensions it appears to have been of the straight design. If it was off the turntable the one shown in Jerry's photo has the wrong orientation, (About 90 degrees out of kilter). The one in the photo also looks perhaps to be too new. A 1936 diagram of the EH facilities drawn up to show the retirement of the turntable and radial tracks has no evidence of the 115' EH, although by this time there were 16 radial tracks. We have some more sleuthing to do. I'm hoping a visit to NARA in the near future and a study of the Bureau of Valuation records will uncover this as well as a few other mysteries. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR Car Mix - B&M/MEC Layout (was: A post from one Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:48:28 -0500 Hi Andy--You wrote (in part)-- > > Branchline make proper models of all the variants in the "Blueprint" series. > Almost. Branchline makes excellent models of the X43b (7 ft door, riveted sides, 85400-86399) and X43c (8 ft door, riveted sides, 600000-601999). However, they don't do the welded side X43a (602000-603499). And then there is the elusive basic X43 (no a,b, or c) (603500-603999). We can't even find a photo of that one. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:12:03 -0400 To the PRR-Talk List I don't post very much so maybe I am one of the so called "lurkers" Here is a problem that I present that someone may have conquered before. I own a fleet of Bachmann passenger cars. P70's, etc. These things have been in my possession for years but only recently have been set up to operate on the club layout. I have trouble with this cars. They never met a piece of track on the club layout they can't derail on. They also like to uncouple on our "Hill & Dale" central due to some uneven track. The smallest restricting radius on the mainline run is 26". Most curves are 28" or wider. I have done the following things: Checked and double checked the wheels/trucks for tram and gauge. Removed the offensive Bachmann couplers and all the inside related linkages. The body of each car was carefully prepared for the mounting of Kadee #5 couplers in Kadee boxes To ensure good coupler mounting, a smooth flat mounting surface for the Kadee couplers was prepared on each car end. Each coupler is attached with two screws into tapped holes in the body. They are right and tight and do not flop around. Each coupler on each end of the offending cars checks in A-OK on the Kadee coupler height gauge. Coupler trip pins are set correctly. The couplers were mounted in such a way that their is sufficient clearance between the cars to allow for travel on curves. Couplers are dry lubed and center perfectly. Offending cars have been run in both directions and mixed up in the consists with no improvement. These cars have yet to have any functional diaphragms installed. Nothing rubbing between cars Bachmann Pullmans such as "Edgar Allen Poe" are most effective at derailing. I do not have many problems with Rivarossi cars. The Bachmann's are Kamikaze. They just look for a place to commit suicide. If somebody can give me a tip that will help make them work I would be very appreciative. Thank you in advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:20:59 -0400 Gary et al: I think the .45 in the holster had more "impact" than the armband. BTW, I didn't realize that Futura lettering was still in use in 1942. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 > Bob, > > I think you are right about the US prisoner type. Not sure if they > even brought Korean Prisoners to the states? It is hard to believe my > Dad escorted these types to the Trains. He was only 130 lbs or so. I > guess they honored that MP Arm Band. I don't think he ever road the > Prisoner Train, just escorted to them. He is gone now so can't shed much > more than that....Gary > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:34:00 -0400 Harry: The first time I ran into this problem on a club layout, I thought it was the brand car that did all the derailing, and I checked the cars out very carefully, as you did the Bachman. After I satisfied myself that the car was as perfect as could be, I realized that it was irregularities in the track affecting a "sensitive" car. After that, I focused on the track work and made it as perfect as possible and the derailments stopped. I found that minute vertical misalignment of track is difficult to spot and difficult to correct, but was responsible for most problems. The second major culprit was incorrect flangeway clearance, too loose or too tight inside turnouts at the frog. I also checked the tapered end of the points for clearance from the stock rail and made some guardrails to help guide the wheels into the end of the point on curves, and one straight section too I believe. The attention to the trackwork eliminated the derailing problems. Good luck with your investigation. Remember what Sherlock Holmes said,"whenever all the obvious reasons have been eliminated, what ever is left, however remote, must be the reason." Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 2:12 AM Subject: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars > To the PRR-Talk List > > I don't post very much so maybe I am one of the so called "lurkers" > > Here is a problem that I present that someone may have conquered before. > I own a fleet of Bachmann passenger cars. P70's, etc. > These things have been in my possession for years but only recently have > been > set up to operate on the club layout. > > I have trouble with this cars. They never met a piece of track on the club > layout they can't derail on. They also like to uncouple on our "Hill & > Dale" central due to some uneven track. The smallest restricting radius on > the mainline run is 26". > Most curves are 28" or wider. > > I have done the following things: > > Checked and double checked the wheels/trucks for tram and gauge. > Removed the offensive Bachmann couplers and all the inside related linkages. > The body of each car was carefully prepared for the mounting of Kadee #5 > couplers in Kadee boxes > To ensure good coupler mounting, a smooth flat mounting surface for the > Kadee couplers was prepared on each car end. > Each coupler is attached with two screws into tapped holes in the body. They > are right and tight and do not flop around. > Each coupler on each end of the offending cars checks in A-OK on the Kadee > coupler height gauge. > Coupler trip pins are set correctly. > The couplers were mounted in such a way that their is sufficient clearance > between the cars to allow for travel on curves. > Couplers are dry lubed and center perfectly. > Offending cars have been run in both directions and mixed up in the consists > with no improvement. > These cars have yet to have any functional diaphragms installed. Nothing > rubbing between cars > Bachmann Pullmans such as "Edgar Allen Poe" are most effective at derailing. > I do not have many problems with Rivarossi cars. The Bachmann's are > Kamikaze. They just look for a place to commit suicide. > > If somebody can give me a tip that will help make them work I would be very > appreciative. > > Thank you in advance, > > Harry Fitch > prrk4s@msn.com > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:28:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars In addition to what Lewis said about checking track, get a two-inch line level (made for hanging on a string) and lay it across both rails, then slide it along the track to pick up unwanted "superelevation" of one rail or the other. I found minor but sudden changes in rail-to- rail height difference to be a major cause of derailments, and this type of defect can be very hard to spot with the naked eye; track gauges won't pick it up at all. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:48:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars One thing to look at is the trucks. If they are the early run cars they'll have plastic sideframes. The later run cars have metal sideframes. Take a good look at the bottom part of the equalizers and make sure they are higher than the bottom of the wheel tread. I've had a number of the early run have the equalizers so low they derail on grade crossings , switches etc. If bad they extend below the rail head which causes problems. I replaced the trucks on mine with some of the brass ones from Rail Classics. Throw the old trucks away as there is no fix for the problem. ---------------------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:53:10 -0400 Harry: While I was reading your letter it occurred to me that your cars may be just a little too good. Perhaps a little "slop" in the truck mounts and a little vertical play in your couplers may help to overcome the vertical oscillations the ends of the long cars are subject to when traversing uneven track. Loosening one of the trucks may help the car ride over sections where the rail height changes from high inside to high outside and back within the length of your car. You can also try a loosely attached drawbar between the cars that will always run as a unit instead of using individual couplers. That may help with uneven track. (I used to make "unit trains" to run on club tracks so no one would accidentally take home one of my superdetailed American Beauty cars with full interior and lights.) "Have you ever tried some of the Kadee's that provide a swing to a body mount coupler?" ANS. NO. American beauty used to have a swing bar coupler to give some added clearance when using scale 85' length cars on short curves. I used those with Mantua couplers, but never with Kadees. I don't have any more of the AB cars, they were replaced with brass some time ago, so I can't measure the coupler swing gadget they used. I believe Rocco has a patented device to do the same thing, and it may be available as an accessory. There was an article in MR about Rocco's gadget way back when. Maybe one of the other chat members remembers when or has the article. "I love the PRR but I have a roving eye for some steam like NKP berks, etc" So do I. I have a large collection of HO motive power that is not PRR. There are many very beautiful engines out there that never had a keystone on them! Yes, the NKP Berkshire is one of those beauties. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars > Lew, > > Thanks for writing. I do appreciate it. > > > Lew I can't agree with you more. I guess I was looking for the "Magic > Bullet" that would somehow bring about a breakthrough that would make the > cars "club layout proof" > There are some deficiencies in the club track work and this does account for > some of the uncoupling problems. The length of these cars must be a large > contributor as I can take steam era freights through the same HO jungle and > get along fairly well. > > To make matters worse for me is that some members run passenger without > major persistent mishaps. I have studied some of their equipment and some > of the cars they run are slightly shorter. I have also seen a few Bachmann > cars painted Santa Fe make it around that HO jungle. I better take a second > look at that fellows cars to see if there is something not common between > the Santa Fe and the PRR Bachmann. I know the trucks are different. Only > the PRR painted Bachmann cars have PRR trucks. > > The sad part Lew is that a lot of the club track work discrepancies will > never be revised. > > Have you ever tried some of the Kadee's that provide a swing to a body mount > coupler? I thought this might be worth a shot for counteracting some of the > miserable track. In the meantime I have gathered a train length of WWII > Troop Sleepers that I know will run on the "Hill & Dale Central" They are > shorter, can be pulled by any correct era motive power and by any road. > (I also have some road "X" brass steam. I love the PRR but I have a roving > eye for some steam like NKP berks, etc.) > > Much Thanks, > > Harry > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:54:22 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars Ken/all: I just purchased two of the newer version with the metal sideframes and there was so much vertical play in them that they were actually shorting on the frogs of Atlas #6 switches and shutting down the layout. I changed to NWSL 38" wheels and dremelled down the highest spots a little bit. Then recovered the bottom with insulating paint (automobile laquer) and the problem "went away"... The replacement trucks would have been an easier solution... Jeff KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: >One thing to look at is the trucks. If they are the early run cars they'll >have plastic sideframes. The later run cars have metal sideframes. Take a >good look at the bottom part of the equalizers and make sure they are higher >than the bottom of the wheel tread. I've had a number of the early run have >the equalizers so low they derail on grade crossings , switches etc. If bad >they extend below the rail head which causes problems. I replaced the trucks >on mine with some of the brass ones from Rail Classics. Throw the old trucks >away as there is no fix for the problem. > ---------------------------------------------- Ken McCorry > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Egan Subject: Re: [PRR] Kamikaze Bachmann passenger cars --0-438373501-1050817392=:82244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have been having a similar problem with some brass cars, not Pennsylvania, that is much like yours. The fixes may help you too. I changed the truck kingpins to allow the trucks to rock easily from side to side and fore and aft, as well as swivel. Probably the most important thing however, was that each axle on a six wheel truck must be free to move side to side, at least a little bit, and the center axle wants the most movement. A 1/16th of an inch was plenty. Attending to those things generally took care of most of the problems. However, one of these days, you may install diaphragms. The American Limited and Walthers diaphragms work fine, but the Walthers ones want some fussing. Among other things, reshape the chafing plate so it looks a bit more like something the Pennsy might have had. Then, round all of the edges of the chafing plate so they don't catch on each other as they round curves. Finally, the bottom of the diaphragm wants to be enough above the coupler that vertical coupler motion will not lift the car. If you decide to make your own diaphragms, the best material available seems to be a nice crisp, new dollar bill. Supposedly you can get three diaphragms for a buck, and if you think that is a waste of money, price a Walthers pair. Note however, that you will NOT get 30 diaphragms out of a ten dollar bill. Pat Egan Chicago --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-438373501-1050817392=:82244 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I have been having a similar problem with some brass cars, not Pennsylvania, that is much like yours.  The fixes may help you too.  I changed the truck kingpins to allow the trucks to rock easily from side to side and fore and aft, as well as swivel.  Probably the most important thing however, was that each axle on a six wheel truck must be free to move side to side, at least a little bit, and the center axle wants the most movement.  A 1/16th of an inch was plenty.  Attending to those things generally took care of most of the problems.

However, one of these days, you may install diaphragms.  The American Limited and Walthers diaphragms work fine, but the Walthers ones want some fussing.  Among other things, reshape the chafing plate so it looks a bit more like something the Pennsy might have had.  Then, round all of the edges of the chafing plate so they don't catch on each other as they round curves.  Finally, the bottom of the diaphragm wants to be enough above the coupler that vertical coupler motion will not lift the car.  If you decide to make your own diaphragms, the best material available seems to be a nice crisp, new dollar bill.  Supposedly you can get three diaphragms for a buck, and if you think that is a waste of money, price a Walthers pair.  Note however, that you will NOT get 30 diaphragms out of a ten dollar bill.

Pat Egan

Chicago

      

 


Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-438373501-1050817392=:82244-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:38:05 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 --=====================_7130142==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This request for help came off the RLHS list. >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:59:17 -0700 > From: jgarcaro@juno.com >Subject: PRR Business car 7503 > >Folks, > Our organization in Cleveland, Ohio has acquired former PRR Business >car 7503. This car was on display for many years at Quaker Square in >Akron, Ohio and was numbered and lettered as #6 " Illinois". We now have >reason to believe this is incorrect. Can anyone help identify the proper >name ? We are certain this is the 7503, as many markings have been found >"hidden" in the car, but no name. > > The car was built in 1912 by Pullman, and is a sister to 7502 " >Chicagoan", and 7507 " Quaker City". The car is in very rough shape, and >will require many hours and dollars to restore. Any help on the name and >details would be appreciated. > >Thanks, >Jim >jgarcaro@juno.com >Dayna & Randy Williamson --=====================_7130142==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This request for help came off the RLHS list.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:59:17 -0700
   From: jgarcaro@juno.com
Subject: PRR Business car 7503

Folks,
    Our organization in Cleveland, Ohio  has acquired former PRR Business
car 7503. This car was on display  for many years at Quaker Square in
Akron, Ohio  and was numbered and lettered as #6 " Illinois". We now have
reason to believe this is incorrect. Can anyone help identify  the proper
name ? We are certain this is the 7503, as many markings have been found
"hidden" in the car, but no name.

    The car was built in 1912 by Pullman, and is a sister to 7502 "
Chicagoan", and 7507 " Quaker City". The car is in very rough shape, and
will require many hours and dollars to restore. Any help on the name and
details would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim
jgarcaro@juno.com



Dayna & Randy Williamson
--=====================_7130142==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] M1b question (MP229 question) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:59:33 -0400 In a previous email I was provided information from an MP229 regarding the dates M1b's 6704 and 6738 (11-19-1958) were dropped from service. Does the MP 229 also have the regional assignments around these (summer 1957 or later) dates. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 Hello Randy...... PRR No. 7503 was named "Duquesne". It was a Z74 class. I'm about 90% sure that there is a published photo of that car. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:23:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Randy...... > > PRR No. 7503 was named "Duquesne". It was a Z74 class. I'm about > 90% sure that there is a published photo of that car. Hope this helps. Amusingly, google finds this claim: http://www.privaterail.com/text.htm I don't know the truth of it, but I figured I'd share. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:25:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Randy...... > > PRR No. 7503 was named "Duquesne". It was a Z74 class. I'm about > 90% sure that there is a published photo of that car. Hope this helps. This claim, from broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Fan/pass_cars.html makes more sense: #7503 "Harrisburg", Strasburg, Pa. Heavyweight open platform business (office) car. Built by Pullman in 1914. Owned by Hallowell Dunlap, renamed Francis L. Suter by current owner. Assigned private car accounting number 800383 by Amtrak. Stored on the Strasburg RR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:37:11 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 --=====================_10676441==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Any information regarding my posting could you please send it on to the gentleman's email address listed on the post. I just forwarded it to the list knowing there are a lot of individuals that would have the information he is requesting. This gentleman is not a member of the list. Thanks, Randy --=====================_10676441==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Any information regarding my posting could you please send it on to the gentleman's email address listed on the post.  I just forwarded it to the list knowing there are a lot of individuals that would have the information he is requesting.  This gentleman is not a member of the list.

Thanks,
Randy --=====================_10676441==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 Great find D. Looks like PRR 7503 is alive and well. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:45:11 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 The only war that I know of that any prisoners of war came here was during WW11 , then only those from Europe , German and Italian . No prisoners from the Pacific came here . As for the Korean conflict , prisoners were kept in country (Korea) in camps . North Korean and Chinese prisoners were very troublesome , and rioted in the camps causing big problems during the latter part of the war . Most of the problem was between those that were real commies ,demanding to go home and those who wanted to stay. MP's were kept busy here chasing down guys who would go AWOL , Sometimes they would have to travel to local jails to pick up these guys , they called that "Prison Chasing" . Korea was not a very popular war here , and a very brutal war , lots of nasty things done to our people/ prisoners . People shot with their hands bound with barbed wire . So I guess there were plenty of Awol's Vince miller Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > During the Korean War my dad was first stationed at Ft Dix and then > went onto New Cumberland near Harrisburg. He was an MP at that time and > his job was to escort Prisoners of some kind to the trains. He enjoyed > his job as it was mixed in with Trains. I never heard him talk much > about this though. Sadly the only pics he had taken was him in uniform > on standing on duty. I guess it would have been pretty hard for him to > pul a camera out from under his uniform and snap a quick pic of anything > interesting trackside.......Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:52:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 --part1_1e5.72c24c4.2bd45483_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. The "Duquesne" last carried the number 7511 after a 1941 renumbering & renaming of the fleet. At this time 7503 did not carry a name. It did carry the name "Duquesne" on a 1920's-1930's roster. The name and number changes for the periods noted are found in PENNSY JOURNAL issue #4(fall 1981) & issue #7(summer 1982). The 7511 "Duquesne", class Z 74E, is presently located in Altoona awaiting restoration. Pat McKinney Altoona, Pa. --part1_1e5.72c24c4.2bd45483_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
       The "Duquesne" last carried the number=20= 7511 after a 1941 renumbering & renaming of the fleet. At this time 7503= did not carry a name. It did carry the name "Duquesne" on a 1920's-1930's r= oster.
  The name and number changes for the periods noted are found in PENNSY= JOURNAL issue #4(fall 1981) & issue #7(summer 1982).
  The 7511 "Duquesne", class Z 74E, is presently located in Altoona awa= iting restoration. 

Pat McKinney
Altoona, Pa. --part1_1e5.72c24c4.2bd45483_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:56:20 EDT Subject: Re:(2) [PRR] PRR Business car 7503 --part1_143.f497486.2bd49bb4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim & List. In checking the Penn Central 5-1-68 Passenger Car Directory, here is what is listed of former PRR car numbers. The 7503 is listed as class Z 74, the"Harrisburg". The car 100 "Chicagoan" & car 7507 "Quaker City" are class Z 74D as are 7504 "William Penn", 7510 "Pittsburger" & 120 "Pennsylvania". Number 180 "Philadelphia"(which has been scrapped) is class Z 74C. The list does not saw what PC numbers are asigned to the cars as it does for the ex NYC business cars. The ex PRR 7125,the "Queen Mary" is listed as PC 31. There is a picture in a Rails Northeast that shows PC 180 & PC 6 and lists them as Z 74 C. The PC 6 has had its older wooden window frames replaced by sealed windows at some point in time but looks as if it could be the former PC 180 as the under carriage look exactly alike as they are shot on the same side but 22 months apart and I have only seen one Z 74 C class business car and it was always the 180 "Philadelphia". The car 7506 was at one time named "Illinios". This may be the car in question. There is a picture of the 7506 in the PENNSY JOURNAL issue # 7 showing it with 6 wheel trucks,although the photo is a bit dark I feel there is enough to verify it by the window arrangement. The 7506 was also a class Z 74,like the 7503 "Harrisburg". Pat McKinney --part1_143.f497486.2bd49bb4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim & List.
    In checking the Penn Central 5-1-68 Passenger Car Directo= ry, here is what is listed of former PRR car numbers.
   The 7503 is listed as class Z 74, the"Harrisburg". The car 100=20= "Chicagoan" & car 7507 "Quaker City" are class Z 74D as are 7504 "Willia= m Penn", 7510 "Pittsburger" & 120 "Pennsylvania". 
   Number 180 "Philadelphia"(which has been scrapped) is class Z 7= 4C.
   The list does not saw what PC numbers are asigned to the cars a= s it does for the ex NYC business cars.
   The ex PRR 7125,the "Queen Mary" is listed as PC 31.
   There is a picture in a Rails Northeast that shows PC 180 &= PC 6 and lists them as Z 74 C. The PC 6 has had its older wooden window fra= mes replaced by sealed windows at some point in time but looks as if it coul= d be the former PC 180 as the under carriage look exactly alike as they are=20= shot on the same side but 22 months apart and I have only seen one Z 74 C cl= ass business car and it was always the 180 "Philadelphia".
   The car 7506 was at one time named "Illinios". This may be the=20= car in question. There is a picture of the 7506 in the PENNSY JOURNAL issue=20= # 7 showing it with 6 wheel trucks,although the photo is a bit dark I feel t= here is enough to verify it by the window arrangement. The 7506 was also a c= lass Z 74,like the 7503 "Harrisburg".

Pat McKinney --part1_143.f497486.2bd49bb4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:01:24 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 Bruce Smith says: Bob Netzlof posted this link way back in Jan 2002...its from the U.S. Army > >Signal Corps archive > http://image.vtls.com/cgi-bin/photo.cgi/VTLS/SC/04/071 > >Newport News, Va. : U.S. Army Signal Corps, Hampton Roads Port of > >Embarkation, May 29 1943. Official photograph. this photo raises another Question: There are no PRR tracks in Newport News where the Army terminals were, how/why did a PRR passenger car get there to be used as a POW car? Newport News is C&O territory...no other RR anywhere else on that peninsula. The nearest PRR tracks are at Little Creek in Norfolk but ASAK, no passenger cars there. PRR rail passenger service ended at Cape Charles with ferry connections to the rest of Tidewater Virginia (but NOT to Newport News directly.) Little Creek PRR tracks connected to the N&P Beltline that connects to Norfolk Southern (old), Southern, ACL, N&W and Virginian. Car float service was used to interchange with C&O. Jim McDaniel, Inquiring minds in Delmarva and all that ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] The Federal Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:15:08 -0400

Amtrak brings Federal back to Washington-Boston service

WASHINGTON, D.C - Amtrak will connect the nation's capital with Boston later this month with a new overnight train, the Federal.

The Federal will depart Washington, D.C., at 10 nightly and arrive in Boston at 8:15 a.m. Amtrak says the new service will also be enhanced by new onboard amenities and convenient departure and arrival times. Three classes of service - first, business, and coach - will be offered.

"Those who recall the days of the Federal, operated by the New Haven and Pennsylvania Railroads, will welcome the return of the train on its former schedule, said Amtrak president David Gunn.

First class passengers will be allowed to board as early as 9 p.m. And once aboard, they'll enjoy private bedrooms in Viewliner sleepers featuring two comfortable beds, a fold-down table, and in-room lavatory facilities. Business ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:17:28 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Engine Service For what its worth, there is a 2 stall engine house that dates to PRR days at Little Creek (Norfolk) Virginia, the southern terminus of the Chesapeake Bay Car Ferry Service. Is shows on 1936(?) valuation maps of the area and is still there. Now in use by the Eastern Shore RR. I assume it is frame construction as it is covered with metal siding. I can't find a photo to link to of the enginehouse but I did find this one of cassatt Tower and a working position light at the Pocomoke River Bridge. http://www.trainweb.org/peninsularailfan/eshr_jobpics.html Jim McDaniel, reporting from "across the Bay" from Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:12:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 Jim sez: >this photo raises another Question: > >There are no PRR tracks in Newport News where the Army terminals were, >how/why did a PRR passenger car get there to be used as a POW car? During WWII, passenger cars were usually grabbed by the home road for use in MAINs. However, when the train crossed into another RR's territory, the troops did not detrain, and board a new set of cars, but rather rode them to the end of the journey. Thus troop trains on the PRR might actually be a very interesting mix of foreign equipment depending on origin. My theory on this movement is that these prisoners were headed to the POW camp at Camp Atterbury, Indianna, online on the PRR and either the PRR was requested to provide the cars, or, there were PRR cars available in Newport News due to having been brought in on a troop train. "No transfers, no stops!" Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:48:17 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 In a message dated 4/21/03 8:15:29 AM, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << During WWII, passenger cars were usually grabbed by the home road for use in MAINs. However, when the train crossed into another RR's territory, the troops did not detrain, and board a new set of cars, but rather rode them to the end of the journey. Thus troop trains on the PRR might actually be a very interesting mix of foreign equipment depending on origin. >> Very interesting discussion on POW cars and troop trains. Wasn't the use of the US rail system for military purposes well covered in General Order 17, the operating regulations set up by General McAdoo when the feds took over the railraods in 1916? Where can I find a copy of General Order 17? Any references to good books/articles that describe this period and the content of the Order? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:04:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 Marty says: >Very interesting discussion on POW cars and troop trains. > >Wasn't the use of the US rail system for military purposes well covered in >General Order 17, the operating regulations set up by General McAdoo when the >feds took over the railraods in 1916? Of course, the biggest difference was that the Feds did not take over the railroads in WWII...however there was (at least there was supposed to be!) very close cooperation with respect to military cargos (people and material). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:45:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal Hmm. leave Boston 10 pm, arrive DC 8:15 am. Let's go back to 1957, #172, leave Washington 11 pm, arrive Boston 8:25 am. Well, they had high-speed trains back then. And the train carried sleeping cars Wash-Boston, Wash-Springfield, Wash-Providence, and NY-Boston; quite a bit of switching enroute! Going back further, 1915, #72, leave DC 7:05 pm, Baltimore 6:35, arr West Phila 8:36 (to discharge), Broad St 8:40/8:55, West Phila (to receive) 8:59, North Phila 9:09, Trenton 9:42, Phillipsburg 10:54, then I lose it onto the L&HR, arriving Boston 10:05 am via the Poughkeepsie Bridge. Imagine boarding at Phillipsburg to ride a sleeper to Boston! Well, good to see the Federal back, even though it's not quite as fast as in 1957! Wonder what train number Amtrak will assign. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:03:43 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C30817.330B3B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lew, I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a (almost done). I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but had to have these cars. It is hard work, only I appreciate the results (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about what we have been doing. If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be more talkative about it! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Friends: In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item for their layout. Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth fruit! Lew >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need ------_=_NextPart_001_01C30817.330B3B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Lew,  I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a (almost done).  I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but had to have these cars.  It is hard work, only I appreciate the results (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about what we have been doing.  If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be more talkative about it!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service

Friends:
 
In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item for their layout.  Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth fruit!
 
Lew
 


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need
------_=_NextPart_001_01C30817.330B3B70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:25:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] B&O / PRR / WM Relationship in 1950's From: Jerry Britton Looking at the relationships of the B&O, WM, and PRR in Hagerstown, MD, in the 1950's... Both B&O and WM had lines along the Potomac River in Maryland. They both went into Hagerstown. The PRR shared Shomo Yard in Hagerstown with the WM. The WM had its own line towards Harrisburg, to Lurgan, where it met the Reading line for the remainder of the trip (into the Reading's Rutherford Yard). Given these physical aspects, and adding "political" aspects, which railroad (B&O or WM), in practice or theory, would have been most likely to send interchange up the PRR's Cumberland Valley Branch? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:05:30 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C307FE.4DB96870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm glad to see that other folks scratchbuild.... That's the only way to = get towers that look like Pennsy towers (except for the old Quality = Craft kit I guess). I've scratchbuilt several towers, 2 octagonal = towers, and 2 in the style of Jacks ond one from an old Keystone from = the Elmyra branch I think. I've also scratchbuilt a couple of G22 gons = and finished a GS Gon just before Bowser released their kit. I always = thought scratchbuilding was part of the modeling environment but I guess = it's relatively rare these days? Dave Vinci Modeling a mythical branch of the PRR in the 1920-1935 period in HO = scale. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Lew, I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a = (almost done). I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but = had to have these cars. It is hard work, only I appreciate the results = (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an = exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about = what we have been doing. If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be = more talkative about it! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Friends: In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary = Mitner) this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item = for their layout. Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it = will grow and bring forth fruit! Lew >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers = or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C307FE.4DB96870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm glad to see that other = folks=20 scratchbuild.... That's the only way to get towers that look like Pennsy = towers=20 (except for the old Quality Craft kit I guess).   I've = scratchbuilt=20 several towers, 2 octagonal towers, and 2 in the style of Jacks ond one = from an=20 old Keystone from the Elmyra branch I think.  I've also = scratchbuilt a=20 couple of G22 gons and finished a GS Gon just before Bowser released = their=20 kit.  I always thought scratchbuilding was part of the modeling = environment=20 but I guess it's relatively rare these days?
 
Dave Vinci
Modeling a mythical branch of = the PRR in=20 the 1920-1935 period in HO scale.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk = LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 11:03=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine = Service

Lew,  I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, = and G33a=20 (almost done).  I would have preferred almost any other = alternative, but=20 had to have these cars.  It is hard work, only I appreciate the = results=20 (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an = exceptional=20 modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about what we = have been=20 doing.  If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be more = talkative=20 about it!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt = PhD=20 [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 = 9:46=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: = Re:=20 [PRR] Engine Service

Friends:
 
In the last several months = (except for=20 comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone = suggested=20 scratchbuilding an item for their layout.  Maybe we can nurture = this=20 comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth = fruit!
 
Lew
 


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene sides = for=20 concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are = all you=20 need
=
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C307FE.4DB96870-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:20:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] TAN: calling Matthew Hurst Hello, A few weeks back Mattthew Hurst emailed me, and I've tried to respond to the email in the reply line, but it keeps getting bounced...Matthew, if you're out there, can you send me a working email address? Sorry for the bandwidth Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:26:00 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] HELP! PRR MOW Decals Hi gang, Okay, this is an EMERGENCY... I need PRR MOW decals (black letters) to letter my crawler crane. As best I can figure, the lettering was about half the size of the normal roadname... Does anyone make an N-scale PRR MOW decal set with "PENNSYLVANIA" in black? My other option is going to be to create one (and I may have to do that anyway, as I need all of the "ASSIGNED CARRIER/IDLER CAR FOR CRAWLER CRANE" for the cars and "ASSIGNED CARRIER/IDLER CAR IS" for the crane...I know, Sunshine makes the set in HO for their MOW FM, but if you look you will see that the Carrier and Idler car lettering are in two different fonts!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:35:59 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O / PRR / WM Relationship in 1950's --=====================_12034574==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jerry, Doing research for my web site I have acquired a 1964 Western Maryland Freight Time table. Looking through the timetable there is no mention at all of connecting trains with the Pennsy. I imagined the two railroads interchanged cars but nothing in through train service. Dayna & Randy Williamson http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm --=====================_12034574==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jerry,

Doing research for my web site I have acquired a 1964 Western Maryland Freight Time table.  Looking through the timetable there is no mention at all of connecting trains with the Pennsy. I imagined the two railroads interchanged cars but nothing in through train service.

Dayna & Randy Williamson
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm --=====================_12034574==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dave, Elden, list, Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I have done are both fun and educational and the results are far more than what I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. Not sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale, probably not as good. Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to where the rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I am thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a B&O prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, share photos of your scratch builds......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:33:32 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C30834.82B0EAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gary and list; I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly. Like I said, I am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my layout. I can't get in the league of you guys. Rivets give me the willies... Elden -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM To: vinci4@net-link.net Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dave, Elden, list, Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I have done are both fun and educational and the results are far more than what I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. Not sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale, probably not as good. Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to where the rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I am thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a B&O prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, share photos of your scratch builds......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C30834.82B0EAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)

Gary and list;
I am finishing up my presentation, but will have = slides of the cars and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in = Philly.  Like I said, I am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to = have these cars for my layout.  I can't get in the league of you = guys.  Rivets give me the willies...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM
To: vinci4@net-link.net
Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)


Dave, Elden, list,

     Thanks for the kind words = Elden. Projects like those that I have
done are both fun and educational and the results = are far more than what
I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out = scratch builds. Not
sure what the results would have been like in HO, my = real scale,
probably not as good.

    Elden, Dave,  and others. If = possible, post some links to where the
rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see = some towers as I am
thinking of doing one in the future of either an O = Scale (of a B&O
prototype, "UN" Tower for our local = Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR
Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at = the Convention last
year got my interests up for a larger scale model. = Again, anyone, share
photos of your scratch builds......Gary
 





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical Items and  Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 = WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.h= tml
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C30834.82B0EAE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:02:30 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/21/03 PRR MofW decals Bruce, Pennsy M of W decals in black are still sold by Champion Decals. Their general M of W decal in HO scale is HC120N. They also offer decals for a wrecking crane which I would imagine would be white lettering on the black crane and the number for this is HC280. T. Rimer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:22:52 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/21/03 RE: Scratchbuilding Scratchbuilding is still alive in model railroading and I have been building structures for shows in the western PA and eastern OH area for the past 15 years. (Mostly HO scale) A friend of mine who enjoys spending an entire day at these shows takes the structures with him and sells them. Usually included are some PRR interlocking towers, frame depots, etc and I do not exaggerate when I say that I can't build them fast enough. Even depots from other railroads take on a Pennsy look when painted in the familiar mushroom tan-gray with dark brown trim and sell very quickly. If you consider the time that I spend constructing these buildings, this is not by any means a big money maker. It is, however, my form of stress relief and it gives me an outlet to at least recoup my material costs plus a few extra $$. Anyone who attends shows in this area have probably seen the structures over the years. The next big show is the Greenberg show at Monroeville Expo Mart in July. T. Rimer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:10:59 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re:B&O / PRR / WM Relationship in 1950's > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:25:55 -0400 > > Looking at the relationships of the B&O, WM, and PRR in Hagerstown, MD, in > the 1950's... which railroad (B&O or WM), in practice or theory, would > have been most likely to send interchange up the PRR's Cumberland Valley > Branch? > From: "Randy Williamson" > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:35:59 -0500 > Doing research for my web site I have acquired a 1964 Western Maryland > Freight Time table. Looking through the timetable there is no mention at > all of connecting trains with the Pennsy. I imagined the two railroads > interchanged cars but nothing in through train service. CUMBO Yard, Martinsburg, WV was a major interchange (mostly coal) between B&O and CV Branch. Not sure what level of activity you'd see there in the mid-50s. And I believe there was also a connection between B&O and CV Branch at north end of Winchester, VA. WM had interchange with CV at Hagerstown, as did N&W. But WM paralleled CV from Hagerstown to Shippensburg and jct with RDG, thence RDG paralleled the CV into Harrisburg. WM's Lurgan Div and CV got into all but one of the major towns north of Hagerstown (Waynesboro, Chambersburg, Shippensburg - Greencastle was CV only). And because of its "Alphabet Route" traffic pooling arrangement, WM did not need PRR to get into the NE railroad network or west of Connellsville, for that matter. N&W, perhaps because of its "suthurn her'tidge," did not cross the Mason-Dixon line :-). These observations might help you to make an educated guess. Also, take a look at the passenger consists for that era. A N&W run-through sleeper might still have been in service over the CV Branch in the mid-50s. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/21/03 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:22:11 -0500 Hi T W Rimer & Listers This is the kind of "self-promotion" that is desirable. For those in the area, please do attend and help. All IMHO of course. Keep your wheels on the rails. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, 21 April, 2003 14:22 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/21/03 > > RE: Scratchbuilding > Scratchbuilding is still alive in model railroading and I have been > building structures for shows in the western PA and eastern OH > area for the past 15 years. (Mostly HO scale) A friend of mine who enjoys > spending an entire day at these shows takes the structures > with him and sells them. Usually included are some PRR interlocking > towers, frame depots, etc and I do not exaggerate when I say that > I can't build them fast enough. Even depots from other railroads take on a > Pennsy look when painted in the familiar mushroom tan-gray with > dark brown trim and sell very quickly. If you consider the time that I > spend constructing these buildings, this is not by any means a > big money maker. It is, however, my form of stress relief and it gives me > an outlet to at least recoup my material costs plus a few > extra $$. Anyone who attends shows in this area have probably seen the > structures over the years. The next big show is the > Greenberg show at Monroeville Expo Mart in July. > > T. Rimer > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] New Jersey interchanges Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:30:11 +0000 Were there any direct interchanges with any of the other railroads in New Jersy that crossed the corridor? Wasn't most New Haven traffic car floated to Brooklyn from Greenview or a similar named yard around New York? What about CNJ, Erie, Lackawanna and Lehigh Valley? Any others? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:39:19 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] New Jersey interchanges --=====================_23034321==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Hi Norm. The interchange was between Greenville (PRR) and Bay Ridge (NYNH&H). I have a float schedule on my web site. I also have a listing of all interchange points on the PRR circa 1964. Randy --=====================_23034321==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Norm.


The interchange was between Greenville (PRR) and Bay Ridge (NYNH&H).  I have a float schedule on my web site.  I also have a listing of all interchange points on the PRR circa 1964.

 Randy --=====================_23034321==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:03:58 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:B&O / PRR / WM Relationship in 1950's Vagel C. Keller, Jr. wrote: Also, take a look at the passenger consists for that era. A N&W run-through sleeper might still have been in service over the CV Branch in the mid-50s. Greeings to Vagel, Jerry, and the List: Yes, it lasted until 1961, NY-Harrisburg-Roanoke. The train and the sleeper came off at the same time. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:52:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal --part1_193.191c1258.2bd5de44_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amtrak's Federal will be train 66 and 67. Chris B #1918 --part1_193.191c1258.2bd5de44_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amtrak's Federal will be train 66 and 67.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_193.191c1258.2bd5de44_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:10:11 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal > Well, good to see the Federal back, even though it's not quite as > fast as in 1957! The speed on such trains is set by good arrival/departure times, rather than 'my word thats fast'. Those wishing speed will go by air... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] HELP! PRR MOW Decals Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:24:53 -0400 Bruce, I am looking at the tracing for "all crawler cranes assigned -M.W. Service" issued 9-3-47. The lettering on the side of the cab is as follows: 1" up from the bottom of the cab, in the rear corner is "Shovel Wt. 00000"; 2" above that is "CRANE Wt. 00000", both in 2" lettering. 30" up from the cab bottom is the crane number "0000", 4" above that is "PENNSYLVANIA", both in 4" tall lettering - what appears to be the standard type style for freight car roadnames and numbers. It is shwon more or less centered on the open area of the cab side with a note stating that the approximate location is shown: " Locate to suit conditions on crane. It is desired that legend and number be so located that they will not be obscured with doors in the open position." Maybe 6" below the bottom of the number is: "ASSIGNED CARRIER CAR IS P.R.R. NO. 000000" in 3" lettering, spaced 3" apart. This lettering was added to the tracing 5-23-50. Different tracings are called out for the details of the 3' lettering and numerals than for the 2" and 4" lettering and numerals. The 3" lettering appears to be a sans-serif style, unlike the 2" and 4". (Two different fonts!) The outside of the cab and boom to be painted yellow enamel. The original note to paint the chassis, crawler tracks, etc. black, was crossed off 12-11-47 and changed to yellow enamel. Letters, figures and handholds to be painted black. Inside of cab to be structural gray, machinery inside to be gray or black at the option of the builder. Hope this helps, Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: [PRR] HELP! PRR MOW Decals > Hi gang, > > Okay, this is an EMERGENCY... > > I need PRR MOW decals (black letters) to letter my crawler crane. As best > I can figure, the lettering was about half the size of the normal > roadname... > > Does anyone make an N-scale PRR MOW decal set with "PENNSYLVANIA" in black? > > My other option is going to be to create one (and I may have to do that > anyway, as I need all of the "ASSIGNED CARRIER/IDLER CAR FOR CRAWLER CRANE" > for the cars and "ASSIGNED CARRIER/IDLER CAR IS" for the crane...I know, > Sunshine makes the set in HO for their MOW FM, but if you look you will see > that the Carrier and Idler car lettering are in two different fonts!!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:23:27 -0400 Jerry Britton asked: I was once told by a member of the list that Berwind sold its hoppers to the PRR circa 1956. Can anyone confirm? (Just hoping it was after 1954!) Still working on clearing out the e-mail backlog, and never saw an answer to this one. No. From Jim Panza and Richard Burg's "The Berwind Hopper Fleet," Railroad Model Craftsman, October 1986: "The first large group of cars to be sold were 75 Class GL hoppers [from BWCX 2001-3000] sold to the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1950. In 1964, a total of 1,925 cars were sold, with 1,639 cars going to the Pennsylvania Railroad [where they ran under BWC reporting marks]. The remainder of the Berwind fleet was sold off or scrapped until the last car was retired in August 1967." Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:23:27 -0400 Jerry Britton asked: I was once told by a member of the list that Berwind sold its hoppers to the PRR circa 1956. Can anyone confirm? (Just hoping it was after 1954!) Still working on clearing out the e-mail backlog, and never saw an answer to this one. No. From Jim Panza and Richard Burg's "The Berwind Hopper Fleet," Railroad Model Craftsman, October 1986: "The first large group of cars to be sold were 75 Class GL hoppers [from BWCX 2001-3000] sold to the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1950. In 1964, a total of 1,925 cars were sold, with 1,639 cars going to the Pennsylvania Railroad [where they ran under BWC reporting marks]. The remainder of the Berwind fleet was sold off or scrapped until the last car was retired in August 1967." Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRR interchanges with others Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:24:51 -0400 List, Since after World War I, it was required that all railroads list all of their interchange points as part of their listing in the Official Railway Equipment Register. The ICC considered this the "official list" of interchange points.. The most common note was Note 1: "Track connection but not used as a regular interchange point" Another common note was Note 50: "Within the _______Switching District.", so Colehour, IL, for example would show IC, Note 50, "Within the Chicago Switching District". So, any of you with an ORER from the PRR years already has the official interchange list. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:25:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/21/03 --part1_105.2cd7a5cc.2bd6103b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, Please change my e-mail address for this newsletter to GPandelios@paonline.com Thanks, George --part1_105.2cd7a5cc.2bd6103b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,

Please change my e-mail address for this newsletter to GPandelios@paonline.c= om

Thanks,

George
 --part1_105.2cd7a5cc.2bd6103b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: F&C H30A and Branchline X43B Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:49:57 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01C30860.B6B7FE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Siller wrote: Also, on page 6 [of the Autumn 1987 Keystone] there is a good photo of = an X43B in the CK scheme. I always wondered about the dash in the X43-B = on the Branchline models. I have seen very few car sub-classes that are = preceded by a dash. Was this unique to particular classes or car = builders? Another one from the backlog that I haven't seen an answer on... The dash on the Branchline Models was copied from the builder's photo. = I believe the fact that the Class X43B cars were not built by Altoona = but by Pressed Steel Car Co. allowed the dash to creep in. Company = documentation certainly shows no dashes used in Arrangement of Lettering = drawings or equipment diagrams save for Class H-2A, which was a leased = N&W class anyway. Bottom line: in this case, the dash is correct, but = any other use of a dash save Class H-2A is incorrect. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01C30860.B6B7FE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rick Siller wrote:
Also, on page 6 [of the Autumn 1987 Keystone] there is a good photo = of an=20 X43B in the CK scheme.  I always wondered about the dash in the = X43-B on=20 the Branchline models.  I have seen very few car sub-classes = that are=20 preceded by a dash.  Was this unique to particular classes or car=20 builders?
 
Another one from the backlog that I haven't seen an answer = on...
The dash on the Branchline Models was copied from the builder's=20 photo.  I believe the fact that the Class X43B cars were not = built by=20 Altoona but by Pressed Steel Car Co. allowed the dash to creep in.  = Company=20 documentation certainly shows no dashes used in Arrangement of Lettering = drawings or equipment diagrams save for Class H-2A, which was a leased = N&W=20 class anyway.  Bottom line: in this case, the dash is correct, but = any=20 other use of a dash save Class H-2A is incorrect.
 
 
Ben Hom
------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01C30860.B6B7FE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind Hoppers Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:16:13 -0400 Jerry and all, Ben is partially correct. After the Berwind cars were sold to the PRR they retained they're black paint scheme but the reporting marks were changed slightly. From BWC to BWCX. The 'X' was added to give a PRR owership. So Jerry, you can model the Berwind Cars in 1954 but the repoerting marks need to be BWCX. Happy Railroading. -John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:51:02 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Prisoner of War car was Spectrum P70 Thanks, this makes sense. The POW cars would have taken US troops from PRR land to Newport News to embark for Europe or North Africa and then taken inbound POWS to where ever they were going in the US. I wonder if the window blocks were used in both directions- troops and POWS?? For what its worth, there was a small POW camp here on Delmarva near Cape Charles. I have heard that these men were offered work tending truck crops on some local farms and that at least a few wanted to stay after the war. Jim McDaniel, in rainy Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:01:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C308A5.56E3C6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GREAT! =20 Let's talk about this. Can you share pictures and some experiences? Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Lew, I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a = (almost done). I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but = had to have these cars. It is hard work, only I appreciate the results = (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an = exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about = what we have been doing. If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be = more talkative about it! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Friends: In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary = Mitner) this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item = for their layout. Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it = will grow and bring forth fruit! Lew >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers = or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C308A5.56E3C6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
GREAT! 
 
Let's talk about this.  Can you = share pictures=20 and some experiences?
 
Lew
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk = LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 11:03=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine = Service

Lew,  I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, = and G33a=20 (almost done).  I would have preferred almost any other = alternative, but=20 had to have these cars.  It is hard work, only I appreciate the = results=20 (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an = exceptional=20 modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about what we = have been=20 doing.  If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be more = talkative=20 about it!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt = PhD=20 [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 = 9:46=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: = Re:=20 [PRR] Engine Service

Friends:
 
In the last several months = (except for=20 comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone = suggested=20 scratchbuilding an item for their layout.  Maybe we can nurture = this=20 comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth = fruit!
 
Lew
 


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene sides = for=20 concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car are = all you=20 need
= ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C308A5.56E3C6A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:05:40 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C308A5.F7355740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: I think we have been intimidated by the quality of ready to run models = and by the nit pickers that see perfection as the only merit. I believe = any scratchbuilt item is a meritorious venture, particularly to the = builder and their criticism is just a cheap shot. I always enjoy = looking at someone else's work and hearing how and what they did to get = where they are. Always learn something this way. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Vinci=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service I'm glad to see that other folks scratchbuild.... That's the only way = to get towers that look like Pennsy towers (except for the old Quality = Craft kit I guess). I've scratchbuilt several towers, 2 octagonal = towers, and 2 in the style of Jacks ond one from an old Keystone from = the Elmyra branch I think. I've also scratchbuilt a couple of G22 gons = and finished a GS Gon just before Bowser released their kit. I always = thought scratchbuilding was part of the modeling environment but I guess = it's relatively rare these days? Dave Vinci Modeling a mythical branch of the PRR in the 1920-1935 period in HO = scale. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Lew, I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a = (almost done). I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but = had to have these cars. It is hard work, only I appreciate the results = (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an = exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about = what we have been doing. If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be = more talkative about it! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service Friends: In the last several months (except for comments about/by Gary = Mitner) this is the first time anyone suggested scratchbuilding an item = for their layout. Maybe we can nurture this comment, so like a seed, it = will grow and bring forth fruit! Lew >ash pits Scratch build! Styrene sides for concrete, a conveyor (Walthers = or SS Limited) and a hopper car are all you need ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C308A5.F7355740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends:
 
I think we have been intimidated by the = quality of=20 ready to run models and by the nit pickers that see perfection as the = only=20 merit.  I believe any scratchbuilt item is a meritorious venture,=20 particularly to the builder and their criticism is just a cheap = shot.  I=20 always enjoy looking at someone else's work and hearing how and what = they did to=20 get where they are.  Always learn something this way.
 
Lew
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave Vinci=20
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 12:05=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine = Service

I'm glad to see that other = folks=20 scratchbuild.... That's the only way to get towers that look like = Pennsy=20 towers (except for the old Quality Craft kit I guess).   = I've=20 scratchbuilt several towers, 2 octagonal towers, and 2 in the style of = Jacks=20 ond one from an old Keystone from the Elmyra branch I think.  = I've also=20 scratchbuilt a couple of G22 gons and finished a GS Gon just before = Bowser=20 released their kit.  I always thought scratchbuilding was part of = the=20 modeling environment but I guess it's relatively rare these = days?
 
Dave Vinci
Modeling a mythical branch = of the PRR=20 in the 1920-1935 period in HO scale.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk = LIST ;=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 11:03=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine = Service

Lew,  I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, = G33, and G33a=20 (almost done).  I would have preferred almost any other = alternative,=20 but had to have these cars.  It is hard work, only I appreciate = the=20 results (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is = just an=20 exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent = about what=20 we have been doing.  If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I = might be=20 more talkative about it!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt = PhD=20 [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 = 9:46=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST; = TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Engine Service

Friends:
 
In the last several months = (except for=20 comments about/by Gary Mitner) this is the first time anyone=20 suggested scratchbuilding an item for their layout.  Maybe we = can=20 nurture this comment, so like a seed, it will grow and bring forth = fruit!
 
Lew
 


>ash pits
Scratch build!  Styrene = sides for=20 concrete, a conveyor (Walthers or SS Limited) and a hopper car = are all=20 you need
= ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C308A5.F7355740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:05:57 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: FW: [PRR] Berwind Hoppers John said> "After the Berwind cars were sold to the PRR they retained they're black paint scheme but the reporting marks were changed slightly. From BWC to BWCX. The 'X' was added to give a PRR ownership. " This is NOT correct the letter "X" denotes non-carrier private ownership in all reporting marks. When they were in Berwind ownership they carried the "X." When they came into PRR ownership the "X" was painted over to signify the cars were in a carrier's ownership. Other suffixes are "Z" for trailers (carrier and private) and "U" for containers (carrier and private). Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind Hoppers Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:14:00 -0400 John Frantz wrote: Ben is partially correct. After the Berwind cars were sold to the PRR they retained their black paint scheme but the reporting marks were changed slightly. From BWC to BWCX. The 'X' was added to give a PRR ownership. So Jerry, you can model the Berwind Cars in 1954 but the reporting marks need to be BWCX. John, check your facts. Under Berwind ownership, the cars ran under BWCX reporting marks - "X" indicates a privately owned (i.e., non-railroad and NOT PRR) car. When the cars passed from Berwind to PRR, the PRR painted out the "X" and ran them under BWC reporting marks rather than reletter and renumber all of the cars PRR. Remember, by 1964, most of these (save the Class BW1 and GL2 cars) were pretty old cars, and I suspect that the Pennsy car department simply didn't want to go through the effort of integrating these cars into a fleet of Class GLCA and GLA cars that were being retired quickly. Please review the Panza/Burg article for more information. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind Hoppers Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:14:33 -0400 John, You've got it backwards. All PRIVATE (non-railroad) cars have an ending "X". The "X" was DROPPED when the cars were sold to PRR. PRR got the AAR to assign the reporting marks "BWC" to it. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind Hoppers > Jerry and all, > > Ben is partially correct. After the Berwind cars were sold > to the PRR they retained they're black paint scheme but > the reporting marks were changed slightly. From BWC to > BWCX. The 'X' was added to give a PRR owership. So Jerry, > you can model the Berwind Cars in 1954 but the repoerting > marks need to be BWCX. > Happy Railroading. > -John Frantz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:10:53 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal Unfortunately, those wishing to do business in DC or Boston will miss the TSL's 6:30 arrival time :-( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== davep wrote: > > Well, good to see the Federal back, even though it's not quite as > > fast as in 1957! > > The speed on such trains is set by good > arrival/departure times, rather than 'my word thats > fast'. Those wishing speed will go by air... > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:01:25 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F9_01C308C6.E65CE3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)Dear Friends: It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or = embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the = rivet counters and nay-sayers. What have we done to the hobby??? There = was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we = HAD things to share. =20 I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are = built. This organization should be sharing information with each other = before we build so that we can build the best model we know how. I = recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for = some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references = which I know some of you have. I only received detailing information = from one person. What does that imply about our chat group's purpose?=20 I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what other = people are doing. I don't like the critical atmosphere because it keeps = the doers from sharing. Elden, bring on your gondolas! I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE = DONE. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Gary and list;=20 I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the cars = and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly. Like I said, I = am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my = layout. I can't get in the league of you guys. Rivets give me the = willies... Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM=20 To: vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)=20 Dave, Elden, list,=20 Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I have=20 done are both fun and educational and the results are far more than = what=20 I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. = Not=20 sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale,=20 probably not as good.=20 Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to where = the=20 rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I = am=20 thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a B&O=20 prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th = PRR=20 Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last = year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, = share=20 photos of your scratch builds......Gary=20 =20 Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art=20 Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>=20 PRR Loco Pics:=20 http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com=20 &=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html=20 and......=20 PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F9_01C308C6.E65CE3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)
Dear Friends:
 
It really concerns me that any modeler = must feel=20 apologetic or embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated = criticism of the rivet counters and nay-sayers.  What have we done = to the=20 hobby???  There was once a time when we shared things and everyone = was=20 grateful that we HAD things to share. 
 
I think it is time to stop being = critical of=20 things AFTER they are built.  This organization should be = sharing=20 information with each other before we build so that we can build the = best model=20 we know how.  I recently asked detailing questions about E8s = because I=20 am gearing up for some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good = diesel photo=20 references which I know some of you have.  I only = received=20 detailing information from one person.  What does that = imply=20 about our chat group's purpose? 
 
I want to see what other people are = doing. I like=20 to see what other people are doing.  I don't like the critical = atmosphere=20 because it keeps the doers from sharing.
 
Elden, bring on your gondolas!  I = AM VERY=20 INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
 
Lew
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 2:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch = Buildin=20 (was Enine Service)

Gary and list;
I am = finishing up my=20 presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe one or two = real ones,=20 at the meet in Philly.  Like I said, I am NOT a good = scratchbuilder, but=20 I had to have these cars for my layout.  I can't get in the = league of you=20 guys.  Rivets give me the willies...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] =
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM
To: vinci4@net-link.net =
Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)=20


Dave, Elden, list,

     Thanks for the kind words = Elden.=20 Projects like those that I have
done are = both fun and=20 educational and the results are far more than what
I=20 imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. = Not=20
sure what the results would have been like in HO, = my real=20 scale,
probably not as good.

    Elden, Dave,  and others. If = possible,=20 post some links to where the
rest can view = your work=20 of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I am
thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of = a=20 B&O
prototype, "UN" Tower for our local = Historical=20 Society) or a 1:29th PRR
Prototype. Seeing = those=20 Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last
year=20 got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, = share=20
photos of your scratch builds......Gary =
 





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical=20 Items and  Art
Work!.......and MY = NEW =20 K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com=20

&

http:/= /www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html=20
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.= angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html=20


----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_00F9_01C308C6.E65CE3E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Proposed Model RR Operation Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:54:58 +0000 I am getting close to starting my planned Philadelphia to Trenton HO RR. I have some ideas for operation that I have not seen before and am interested in comments regarding feasability. I had originally planned to model from 30th St. station since the freights could disappear behind the station on the High Line and the passenger trains disappear into 30Th St. and then loop back as northbounds. This causes problems in that it limits me to north south passenger ops. If I stop at Zoo the passenger trains can disappear into the subways and achieve the same result while also including some of the east west trains. I will lose the visual effect of the High Line but there wasn't much to be gained operationally by modeling the coach yard at 30th ST. The east end will really stop at Morrisville yard. This will allow all eastbound local freights to service industries from Margie yard in Phila. and all westbounds from Morris. Here is the idea. Since this is the corridor there needs to be a lot of clockers and freight run throughs. I thought if there was a tower operator assigned to each of the towers (Zoo, N. Phila., Shore, Holmes, Grundy and Morris) they could monitor the through trains with DCC and keep tower sheets. N. Phl. beccomes a very busy location with passenger train stops for all trains. Until someone comes out with affordable MP54's commuter trains will be a thing of the future. All Local freights and MU's when they can be added will have individual crews subject to the tower operators in their respective zones. Margie and Morrisville will also have yard crews (probably 2 each at this point. Most northbound freights will call at Morris and most southbounds at Margie to pick up and drop off cars. I even consider the idea of eventually giving the tower operators windows on three side of a desk to look through so they have the feel of being in the tower. Their main duty is to monitor the through trains, adjust speed where required, record their passage on the tower sheets and notify the next tower east or west of the coming train, engine number, time, etc. How feasable does this operating scheme seem? Do you think people would be interested in being towermen rather than engineers on locals? Does it seem doable? Feel free to e mail me off line. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR gon scratchbuilding Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:25:47 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C308F4.3695DF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lew, You bet! I don't know who all is going to the meet, and I am not sure how much detail I will be able to go into this at the meet, due to time constraints. I was planning to get through the entire list of classes and subclasses, how each might be done, how I did the ones I did, briefly show what cars require scratchbuilding, and the short strokes on how one might get them done expeditiously. Unless I have time for it at the end or someone comes up and asks me for more detail after the presentation. But I had to try to model all the major classes and subclasses of PRR gon (20th century only) so I could hopefully tell people how to do it themselves. Even though there are so many beautiful PRR gon kits in resin, there are still some major holes in your fleet if you don't scratchbuild. And I am telling you, I am not that good a modeler. So if I can scratcbuild these babies, anyone can. Seriously. I did each class I wanted assembly-line fashion. I figured it would reduce my aggravation level (I make lots of mistakes, so it is easier just throwing out a piece if it is screwed up). I wrote all dimensions down on a sheet of paper. I scaled them from photos and got the major ones (like IL) from those Pennsy class drawings. Rob has most on his website. I did the G36 class a couple years ago, and learned on them. The G36's were EXTREMELY numerous and had a bunch of classes. If you model the 60's you HAVE to have them. They are also welded and very clean dimensionally. The ribs are all the same dimension (I think .04 x .06) and of the same length, so I cut them out with a NWSL Chopper, sanded down the ends to create the taper, and made a big batch of them. More than I needed. Then I cut out the sides from .02 sheet. I penciled the rib locations on a big sheet, then penciled on the outline of the side and cut them out. I made a template to fit the side into that has lines above and below the rib location on the side. That gets your alignment going (the biggest hurdle for me). Then I created about a dozen sides. The ones that don't turn out with acceptable rib alignments get tossed......no aggravation factor. I hold the rib in place and wick styrene cement under it with a brush. I can adjust it as needed. Move from left to right. Done. Once the sides are made, you will feel much better. The top chord/bulb angle was created from strip, I think .06 x .06 or so, and cut to length. I glued it in place on a sheet of glass. It abuts the side. Floors were cut out of .04 embossed styrene sheet that has the planking. I made a bunch. I also make steel floors (G36e) out of scribed sheet (no rivets on these guys). I penciled on the floor location on the back of each side. Then I glued on pieces of styrene strip .04" below the line, every so often. These strips reinforce the side-to-floor joint. Then you can glue the floor to the side, initially with CA, then after you are happy, with styrene cement. The only thing to remember here is that the floor lines up with the pencil line well. The body gets its box shape once the ends go on. Take a DA GS gon end and try it on for size. I think you have to cut off part of the top of the side so you can add your own top chord on. Make the cut less than you need and sand off the excess. But get the fiddling around part done. Sand off the rivets on the bottom of the end. Glue it on with CA and if you dont like the slignment, break it back off and try again. Add the top chord. Check for squareness by putting it upside down on the sheet of glass. It ought to sit square, or try again. You can twist the body around if you need to to get the alignment right. Once the box is done, go have a beer. Sand the corners and all to get a nice smooth body contour. The top chord should look dead rectangle. Now glue some styrene stock in the junction between floor and side and right up against the end of the car. Drill these and place A-Line type A stirrups. Cut some styrene strip to make the corner pads and glue them in place. They line up with the bottom of the end and bottom of the side. Again, check your pics. Draw a line down the center of the floor on the bottom. Glue Kadee #58's in the box to the floor, centering on the line. Now cut some .125 x .156 styrene to length from the back of the coupler box to the third rib in or so. Weights will go in the center. Glue in place so the strip has the narrow face against the floor (i.e., taller than it is wide). Mark and drill #50 for truck screws. Create rivet strips for the corners out of styrene sheet scored down the center for a fold line. Emboss rivets with a pounce wheel or pin. Fold down the center so the rivets are on the outside. Glue one on each corner. Now, for the G36 you need to indent the corners of the top chord to accomodate the ladders. Sides only. I used a sanding stick. Look at the photos in your Morning Sun books. Cut some ladders to length. The DA ones have little pegs on the back that can be cut down to the proper length to provide stand-off at the bottom of the ladders. Two rung ladders on the left side of the side, four rung on the right. The top of the ladder gets glued flush with the indent in the top chord and the bottom has the stand-off. Adjust until it is parallel with the side and all. Check the pics for the end ladders. Remember those stand-offs. Drill for grabs on the ends. Drill for a cut lever eyebolt. Install grabs and cut lever. Glue brass or styrene strips on each end to represent those reinforcement strips. See them in the pics? Choose a "B" end and install an Ajax or Miner set with a chain, rud and fulcrum below. Put a retainer on if you like them. Install a Plano brake platform. You are done with the body! I think... Paint it. 75% LTOR and 25% DTOR works well. Cobble together decals for the original scheme from MDiv G31e set and asst. Champ (urgh). It has the 13" letters with the "PRR" in serif. Remember the G36a-d are "rebuilt" and need that lettering. Paint the interior sides and ends really rusty (they were not painted) and the floor as it suits you. Put two strips of A-Line weights down either side of the center line. The thicker ones go in the fishbelly area. That makes it nice and heavy. If the lack of brake gear bothers you, put cut-off pieces on the bottoms of the weights in appropriate places and wire for the rods. They are really not that visible in photos. I think the G36a, b, c, d have Crown trucks (Bowser). The G36, G36e, and f use the Stewart 70ton. The Crown sideframes were really rusty, too. I think you are done. If you are still interested in the G32 and G33, let me know. The G32 is really easy. Elden P.S. I don't have a scanner but I will have photos and models at the meet... -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:01 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service GREAT! Let's talk about this. Can you share pictures and some experiences? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Lew, I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a (almost done). I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but had to have these cars. It is hard work, only I appreciate the results (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about what we have been doing. If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be more talkative about it! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service ------_=_NextPart_001_01C308F4.3695DF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Lew, 
    You bet!  I don't know who all is going to the meet, and I am not sure how much detail I will be able to go into this at the meet, due to time constraints.   I was planning to get through the entire list of classes and subclasses, how each might be done, how I did the ones I did, briefly show what cars require scratchbuilding, and the short strokes on how one might get them done expeditiously.  Unless I have time for it at the end or someone comes up and asks me for more detail after the presentation. 
    But I had to try to model all the major classes and subclasses of PRR gon (20th century only) so I could hopefully tell people how to do it themselves.  Even though there are so many beautiful PRR gon kits in resin, there are still some major holes in your fleet if you don't scratchbuild.
    And I am telling you, I am not that good a modeler.  So if I can scratcbuild these babies, anyone can.  Seriously.
    I did each class I wanted assembly-line fashion.  I figured it would reduce my aggravation level (I make lots of mistakes, so it is easier just throwing out a piece if it is screwed up).  I wrote all dimensions down on a sheet of paper.  I scaled them from photos and got the major ones (like IL) from those Pennsy class drawings.  Rob has most on his website.
    I did the G36 class a couple years ago, and learned on them.  The G36's were EXTREMELY numerous and had a bunch of classes.  If you model the 60's you HAVE to have them.  They are also welded and very clean dimensionally.  The ribs are all the same dimension (I think .04 x .06) and of the same length, so I cut them out with a NWSL Chopper, sanded down the ends to create the taper, and made a big batch of them.  More than I needed.
    Then I cut out the sides from .02 sheet.  I penciled the rib locations on a big sheet, then penciled on the outline of the side and cut them out.  I made a template to fit the side into that has lines above and below the rib location on the side.  That gets your alignment going (the biggest hurdle for me).
    Then I created about a dozen sides.  The ones that don't turn out with acceptable rib alignments get tossed......no aggravation factor.  I hold the rib in place and wick styrene cement under it with a brush.  I can adjust it as needed.  Move from left to right.  Done.  Once the sides are made, you will feel much better.
    The top chord/bulb angle was created from strip, I think .06 x .06 or so, and cut to length.  I glued it in place on a sheet of glass.  It abuts the side.
    Floors were cut out of .04 embossed styrene sheet that has the planking.  I made a bunch.  I also make steel floors (G36e) out of scribed sheet (no rivets on these  guys).
    I penciled on the floor location on the back of each side.  Then I glued on pieces of styrene strip .04" below the line, every so often.  These strips reinforce the side-to-floor joint. 
    Then you can glue the floor to the side, initially with CA, then after you are happy, with styrene cement.  The only thing to remember here is that the floor lines up with the pencil line well.  The body gets its box shape once the ends go on.
    Take a DA GS gon end and try it on for size.  I think you have to cut off part of the top of the side so you can add your own top chord on.  Make the cut less than you need and sand off the excess. But get the fiddling around part done.  Sand off the rivets on the bottom of the end.  Glue it on with CA and if you dont like the slignment, break it back off and try again.  Add the top chord.  Check for squareness by putting it upside down on the sheet of glass.  It ought to sit square, or try again.  You can twist the body around if you need to to get the alignment right.
    Once the box is done, go have a beer.
    Sand the corners and all to get a nice smooth body contour.  The top chord should look dead rectangle.
    Now glue some styrene stock in the junction between floor and side and right up against the end of the car.  Drill these and place A-Line type A stirrups.  Cut some styrene strip to make the corner pads and glue them in place.  They line up with the bottom of the end and bottom of the side.  Again, check your pics.
    Draw a line down the center of the floor on the bottom.  Glue Kadee #58's in the box to the floor, centering on the line.
    Now cut some .125 x .156 styrene to length from the back of the coupler box to the third rib in or so.  Weights will go in the center.  Glue in place so the strip has the narrow face against the floor (i.e., taller than it is wide).  Mark and drill #50 for truck screws.
    Create rivet strips for the corners out of styrene sheet scored down the center for a fold line.  Emboss rivets with a pounce wheel or pin.  Fold down the center so the rivets are on the outside.  Glue one on each corner. 
    Now, for the G36 you need to indent the corners of the top chord to accomodate the ladders.  Sides only.  I used a sanding stick.  Look at the photos in your Morning Sun books.  Cut some ladders to length.  The DA ones have little pegs on the back that can be cut down to the proper length to provide stand-off at the bottom of the ladders.  Two rung ladders on the left side of the side, four rung on the right.  The top of the ladder gets glued flush with the indent in the top chord and the bottom has the stand-off.  Adjust until it is parallel with the side and all.  Check the pics for the end ladders.  Remember those stand-offs.
    Drill for grabs on the ends.  Drill for a cut lever eyebolt.  Install grabs and cut lever.
    Glue brass or styrene strips on each end to represent those reinforcement strips.  See them in the pics?  Choose a "B" end and install an Ajax or Miner set with a chain, rud and fulcrum below.  Put a retainer on if you like them.  Install a Plano brake platform.  You are done with the body!  I think...
    Paint it.  75% LTOR and 25% DTOR works well.  Cobble together decals for the original scheme from MDiv G31e set and asst. Champ (urgh).  It has the 13" letters with the "PRR" in serif.  Remember the G36a-d are "rebuilt" and need that lettering.  Paint the interior sides and ends really rusty (they were not painted) and the floor as it suits you.
    Put two strips of A-Line weights down either side of the center line.  The thicker ones go in the fishbelly area.  That makes it nice and heavy.
    If the lack of brake gear bothers you, put cut-off pieces on the bottoms of the weights in appropriate places and wire for the rods.  They are really not that visible in photos.
    I think the G36a, b, c, d have Crown trucks (Bowser).  The G36, G36e, and f use the Stewart 70ton.  The Crown sideframes were really rusty, too.
    I think you are done.
If you are still interested in the G32 and G33, let me know.  The G32 is really easy.
    Elden
P.S.  I don't have a scanner but I will have photos and models at the meet...
   
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:01 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service

GREAT! 
 
Let's talk about this.  Can you share pictures and some experiences?
 
Lew
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service

Lew,  I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a (almost done).  I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but had to have these cars.  It is hard work, only I appreciate the results (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about what we have been doing.  If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be more talkative about it!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service

------_=_NextPart_001_01C308F4.3695DF60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:50:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR gon scratchbuilding On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > P.S. I don't have a scanner but I will have photos and models at the > meet... I will have a scanner there, if that's helpful to you... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re:[PRR] Berwind Hoppers Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:27:37 -0400 Gents, Sorry for the mis-information this morning. I knew it was something like that and i couldn't find the right book. Also, dad was already at work this morning. Ah, the beauty of being young and stupid. Anyway, i did bring out some more lurkers. And the exact specifications have been made. -John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Scratchbuilding Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:33:54 -0400 Gents, The merits of scratchbuilding a car can be great. but they can also wreak havoc on an otherwise sane mind. I'm attempting to scratchbuild an early PRR test car, class YZ, from the ground up. The base is a modified 4-wheel passenger truck, but everything else needs to be built. Everything is great until you realize couplers need to fit. So, for now, hopefully the car could be ready for Cinncinatti next year. When it comes to scratchbuilding anything, good luck. -John Frantz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] MS Train Simulator Question Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:21:11 +0000 PRR Gize: I just purchased this software this weekend. Overall, I think that it is great. I have already download F-7 skin files for PRR; they look great on the NE Corridor. Does anyone know if there are other routes that are being developed? Not necessarily by MS but novices. Last year, there were a few posts on PRR-Talk regarding the Middle Division on Train Simulator. Does anyone have the latest news on that? I am just starting out on learning the editor commands. Once I get familiar, I will begin doing PRR lines Specifically, I will do the Ft. Wayne Line in Indiana (Chicago to Ft. Wayne). If things go well with this project, I may even attempt to do the Panhandle in Indiana as well as the Erie / EL. (Boy, am I sounding ambitious!!) :P Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] MS Train Simulator Question Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:35:46 +0000 You need to go to train-sim.com. They have tons of stuff in their files. GG1's, the Congo cars, MP54's, sveral diesels, T1, better scenery for the NE corridor. Be prepared if you use a 56k modem for it to take hours to download. They also have a Lehigh Valley route, WM and a CR in Ohio route. they also have a message board where people discuss the problems and fixes. Prepare to purchase a LARGE hard drive for train sim alone as the files become massive after a few downloads and upgrades. > PRR Gize: > > I just purchased this software this weekend. Overall, I think that it is > great. I have already download F-7 skin files for PRR; they look great on > the NE Corridor. > > Does anyone know if there are other routes that are being developed? Not > necessarily by MS but novices. Last year, there were a few posts on PRR-Talk > regarding the Middle Division on Train Simulator. Does anyone have the > latest news on that? > > I am just starting out on learning the editor commands. Once I get familiar, > I will begin doing PRR lines Specifically, I will do the Ft. Wayne Line in > Indiana (Chicago to Ft. Wayne). If things go well with this project, I may > even attempt to do the Panhandle in Indiana as well as the Erie / EL. (Boy, > am I sounding ambitious!!) :P > > Ted Andrews > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR gon scratchbuilding Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:06:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01C308F1.80E15F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Elden: Fantastic! I can't wait to try a few for myself. I've been using = Athearn and Mantua gons, from the 1950's, painted and lettered circle = keystone for PRR and desperately need to upgrade. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR gon scratchbuilding Lew, =20 You bet! I don't know who all is going to the meet, and I am not = sure how much detail I will be able to go into this at the meet, due to = time constraints. I was planning to get through the entire list of = classes and subclasses, how each might be done, how I did the ones I = did, briefly show what cars require scratchbuilding, and the short = strokes on how one might get them done expeditiously. Unless I have = time for it at the end or someone comes up and asks me for more detail = after the presentation. =20 But I had to try to model all the major classes and subclasses of = PRR gon (20th century only) so I could hopefully tell people how to do = it themselves. Even though there are so many beautiful PRR gon kits in = resin, there are still some major holes in your fleet if you don't = scratchbuild. And I am telling you, I am not that good a modeler. So if I can = scratcbuild these babies, anyone can. Seriously. I did each class I wanted assembly-line fashion. I figured it = would reduce my aggravation level (I make lots of mistakes, so it is = easier just throwing out a piece if it is screwed up). I wrote all = dimensions down on a sheet of paper. I scaled them from photos and got = the major ones (like IL) from those Pennsy class drawings. Rob has most = on his website. I did the G36 class a couple years ago, and learned on them. The = G36's were EXTREMELY numerous and had a bunch of classes. If you model = the 60's you HAVE to have them. They are also welded and very clean = dimensionally. The ribs are all the same dimension (I think .04 x .06) = and of the same length, so I cut them out with a NWSL Chopper, sanded = down the ends to create the taper, and made a big batch of them. More = than I needed. Then I cut out the sides from .02 sheet. I penciled the rib = locations on a big sheet, then penciled on the outline of the side and = cut them out. I made a template to fit the side into that has lines = above and below the rib location on the side. That gets your alignment = going (the biggest hurdle for me). Then I created about a dozen sides. The ones that don't turn out = with acceptable rib alignments get tossed......no aggravation factor. I = hold the rib in place and wick styrene cement under it with a brush. I = can adjust it as needed. Move from left to right. Done. Once the = sides are made, you will feel much better. The top chord/bulb angle was created from strip, I think .06 x .06 = or so, and cut to length. I glued it in place on a sheet of glass. It = abuts the side. Floors were cut out of .04 embossed styrene sheet that has the = planking. I made a bunch. I also make steel floors (G36e) out of = scribed sheet (no rivets on these guys). I penciled on the floor location on the back of each side. Then I = glued on pieces of styrene strip .04" below the line, every so often. = These strips reinforce the side-to-floor joint. =20 Then you can glue the floor to the side, initially with CA, then = after you are happy, with styrene cement. The only thing to remember = here is that the floor lines up with the pencil line well. The body = gets its box shape once the ends go on. Take a DA GS gon end and try it on for size. I think you have to = cut off part of the top of the side so you can add your own top chord = on. Make the cut less than you need and sand off the excess. But get = the fiddling around part done. Sand off the rivets on the bottom of the = end. Glue it on with CA and if you dont like the slignment, break it = back off and try again. Add the top chord. Check for squareness by = putting it upside down on the sheet of glass. It ought to sit square, = or try again. You can twist the body around if you need to to get the = alignment right. Once the box is done, go have a beer. Sand the corners and all to get a nice smooth body contour. The = top chord should look dead rectangle. Now glue some styrene stock in the junction between floor and side = and right up against the end of the car. Drill these and place A-Line = type A stirrups. Cut some styrene strip to make the corner pads and = glue them in place. They line up with the bottom of the end and bottom = of the side. Again, check your pics. Draw a line down the center of the floor on the bottom. Glue = Kadee #58's in the box to the floor, centering on the line. Now cut some .125 x .156 styrene to length from the back of the = coupler box to the third rib in or so. Weights will go in the center. = Glue in place so the strip has the narrow face against the floor (i.e., = taller than it is wide). Mark and drill #50 for truck screws. Create rivet strips for the corners out of styrene sheet scored = down the center for a fold line. Emboss rivets with a pounce wheel or = pin. Fold down the center so the rivets are on the outside. Glue one = on each corner.=20 Now, for the G36 you need to indent the corners of the top chord = to accomodate the ladders. Sides only. I used a sanding stick. Look = at the photos in your Morning Sun books. Cut some ladders to length. = The DA ones have little pegs on the back that can be cut down to the = proper length to provide stand-off at the bottom of the ladders. Two = rung ladders on the left side of the side, four rung on the right. The = top of the ladder gets glued flush with the indent in the top chord and = the bottom has the stand-off. Adjust until it is parallel with the side = and all. Check the pics for the end ladders. Remember those = stand-offs. Drill for grabs on the ends. Drill for a cut lever eyebolt. = Install grabs and cut lever. Glue brass or styrene strips on each end to represent those = reinforcement strips. See them in the pics? Choose a "B" end and = install an Ajax or Miner set with a chain, rud and fulcrum below. Put a = retainer on if you like them. Install a Plano brake platform. You are = done with the body! I think... Paint it. 75% LTOR and 25% DTOR works well. Cobble together = decals for the original scheme from MDiv G31e set and asst. Champ = (urgh). It has the 13" letters with the "PRR" in serif. Remember the = G36a-d are "rebuilt" and need that lettering. Paint the interior sides = and ends really rusty (they were not painted) and the floor as it suits = you. Put two strips of A-Line weights down either side of the center = line. The thicker ones go in the fishbelly area. That makes it nice = and heavy. If the lack of brake gear bothers you, put cut-off pieces on the = bottoms of the weights in appropriate places and wire for the rods. = They are really not that visible in photos. I think the G36a, b, c, d have Crown trucks (Bowser). The G36, = G36e, and f use the Stewart 70ton. The Crown sideframes were really = rusty, too. I think you are done. If you are still interested in the G32 and G33, let me know. The G32 = is really easy. Elden P.S. I don't have a scanner but I will have photos and models at the = meet... =20 -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:01 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service GREAT! =20 Let's talk about this. Can you share pictures and some experiences? Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Service Lew, I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, G33, and G33a = (almost done). I would have preferred almost any other alternative, but = had to have these cars. It is hard work, only I appreciate the results = (how many people actually appreciate gons?), and Gary is just an = exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of us rather silent about = what we have been doing. If I was a talented scratchbuilder, I might be = more talkative about it! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:46 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Service ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01C308F1.80E15F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Elden:
 
Fantastic!  I can't wait to try a = few for=20 myself.  I've been using Athearn and Mantua gons, from the 1950's, = painted=20 and lettered circle keystone for PRR and desperately need to=20 upgrade.
 
Lew
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk = LIST ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 = 1:25=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR gon=20 scratchbuilding

Lew, 
    You bet!  I don't know who all is = going to the=20 meet, and I am not sure how much detail I will be able to go into this = at the=20 meet, due to time constraints.   I was planning to get = through the=20 entire list of classes and subclasses, how each might be done, how I = did the=20 ones I did, briefly show what cars require scratchbuilding, and = the short=20 strokes on how one might get them done expeditiously.  Unless I = have time=20 for it at the end or someone comes up and asks me for more detail = after the=20 presentation. 
    But I had to try to model all the major = classes and=20 subclasses of PRR gon (20th century only) so I could hopefully tell = people how=20 to do it themselves.  Even though there are so many beautiful PRR = gon=20 kits in resin, there are still some major holes in your fleet if you = don't=20 scratchbuild.
    And I am telling you, I am not that good a = modeler.  So if I can scratcbuild these babies, anyone can.  = Seriously.
    I did each class I wanted assembly-line = fashion.  I=20 figured it would reduce my aggravation level (I make lots of mistakes, = so it=20 is easier just throwing out a piece if it is screwed up).  I = wrote all=20 dimensions down on a sheet of paper.  I scaled them from photos = and got=20 the major ones (like IL) from those Pennsy class drawings.  Rob = has most=20 on his website.
    I did the G36 class a couple years ago, = and learned=20 on them.  The G36's were EXTREMELY numerous and had a bunch of=20 classes.  If you model the 60's you HAVE to have them.  They = are=20 also welded and very clean dimensionally.  The ribs are all the = same=20 dimension (I think .04 x .06) and of the same length, so I cut them = out with a=20 NWSL Chopper, sanded down the ends to create the taper, and made a big = batch=20 of them.  More than I needed.
    Then I cut out the sides from .02 = sheet.  I penciled=20 the rib locations on a big sheet, then penciled on the outline of the = side and=20 cut them out.  I made a template to fit the side into that has = lines=20 above and below the rib location on the side.  That gets your = alignment=20 going (the biggest hurdle for me).
    Then I created about a dozen sides.  The = ones that=20 don't turn out with acceptable rib alignments get tossed......no = aggravation=20 factor.  I hold the rib in place and wick styrene cement under it = with a=20 brush.  I can adjust it as needed.  Move from left to = right. =20 Done.  Once the sides are made, you will feel much=20 better.
    The top chord/bulb angle was created from = strip, I think=20 .06 x .06 or so, and cut to length.  I glued it in place on a = sheet of=20 glass.  It abuts the side.
    Floors were cut out of .04 embossed styrene = sheet that=20 has the planking.  I made a bunch.  I also make steel floors = (G36e)=20 out of scribed sheet (no rivets on these  = guys).
    I penciled on the floor location on the back = of each=20 side.  Then I glued on pieces of styrene strip .04" below the = line, every=20 so often.  These strips reinforce the side-to-floor joint. =20
    Then you can glue the floor to the side, = initially with=20 CA, then after you are happy, with styrene cement.  The only = thing to=20 remember here is that the floor lines up with the pencil line = well.  The=20 body gets its box shape once the ends go on.
    Take a DA GS gon end and try it on for = size.  I=20 think you have to cut off part of the top of the side so you can add = your own=20 top chord on.  Make the cut less than you need and sand off the=20 excess. But get the fiddling around part done.  Sand off the = rivets=20 on the bottom of the end.  Glue it on with CA and if you dont = like the=20 slignment, break it back off and try again.  Add the top = chord. =20 Check for squareness by putting it upside down on the sheet of = glass.  It=20 ought to sit square, or try again.  You can twist the body around = if you=20 need to to get the alignment right.
    Once the box is done, go have a = beer.
    Sand the corners and all to get a nice smooth = body=20 contour.  The top chord should look dead = rectangle.
    Now glue some styrene stock in the junction = between floor=20 and side and right up against the end of the car.  Drill = these and=20 place A-Line type A stirrups.  Cut some styrene strip to make the = corner=20 pads and glue them in place.  They line up with the bottom of the = end and=20 bottom of the side.  Again, check your pics.
    Draw a line down the center of the floor on = the=20 bottom.  Glue Kadee #58's in the box to the floor, centering on = the=20 line.
    Now cut some .125 x .156 styrene to length = from the back=20 of the coupler box to the third rib in or so.  Weights will go in = the=20 center.  Glue in place so the strip has the narrow face against = the floor=20 (i.e., taller than it is wide).  Mark and drill #50 for truck=20 screws.
    Create rivet strips for the corners out of = styrene sheet=20 scored down the center for a fold line.  Emboss rivets with a = pounce=20 wheel or pin.  Fold down the center so the rivets are on the=20 outside.  Glue one on each corner. 
    Now, for the G36 you need to indent the = corners of the=20 top chord to accomodate the ladders.  Sides only.  I used a = sanding=20 stick.  Look at the photos in your Morning Sun books.  Cut = some=20 ladders to length.  The DA ones have little pegs on the back that = can be=20 cut down to the proper length to provide stand-off at the bottom of = the=20 ladders.  Two rung ladders on the left side of the side, four = rung on the=20 right.  The top of the ladder gets glued flush with the indent in = the top=20 chord and the bottom has the stand-off.  Adjust until it is = parallel with=20 the side and all.  Check the pics for the end ladders.  = Remember=20 those stand-offs.
    Drill for grabs on the ends.  Drill for = a cut lever=20 eyebolt.  Install grabs and cut lever.
    Glue brass or styrene strips on each end to = represent=20 those reinforcement strips.  See them in the pics?  Choose a = "B" end=20 and install an Ajax or Miner set with a chain, rud and fulcrum = below. =20 Put a retainer on if you like them.  Install a Plano brake=20 platform.  You are done with the body!  I=20 think...
    Paint it.  75% LTOR and 25% DTOR works = well. =20 Cobble together decals for the original scheme from MDiv G31e = set and=20 asst. Champ (urgh).  It has the 13" letters with the "PRR" in=20 serif.  Remember the G36a-d are "rebuilt" and need that = lettering. =20 Paint the interior sides and ends really rusty (they were not painted) = and the=20 floor as it suits you.
    Put two strips of A-Line weights down either = side of the=20 center line.  The thicker ones go in the fishbelly area.  = That makes=20 it nice and heavy.
    If the lack of brake gear bothers you, put = cut-off pieces=20 on the bottoms of the weights in appropriate places and wire for the=20 rods.  They are really not that visible in = photos.
    I think the G36a, b, c, d have Crown trucks=20 (Bowser).  The G36, G36e, and f use the Stewart 70ton.  The = Crown=20 sideframes were really rusty, too.
    I think you are done.
If=20 you are still interested in the G32 and G33, let me know.  = The G32=20 is really easy.
    Elden
P.S.  I don't have a scanner but I will have photos and = models at=20 the meet...
   
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. Matt = PhD=20 [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 = 5:01=20 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk LIST;=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine=20 Service

GREAT! 
 
Let's talk about this.  Can = you share=20 pictures and some experiences?
 
Lew
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 ELDEN GATWOOD
To: 'Lewis J. Matt PhD' ; PRR-Talk LIST=20 ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 21, = 2003 11:03=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine=20 Service

Lew,  I just finished scratchbuilding a G32, G32a, = G33, and=20 G33a (almost done).  I would have preferred almost any other=20 alternative, but had to have these cars.  It is hard work, = only I=20 appreciate the results (how many people actually appreciate = gons?), and=20 Gary is just an exceptional modeler, tending to make the rest of = us rather=20 silent about what we have been doing.  If I was a talented=20 scratchbuilder, I might be more talkative about = it!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20 [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 = 9:46=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST; = TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Engine=20 = Service

------=_NextPart_000_0168_01C308F1.80E15F20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:06:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C308F9.F4910710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)Well, I used s little = digital camra and took some shots of the towers I've built and posted = them in a folder called Dave's PRR which is in the files section of the = Structure Modeler group on Yahoo. Don't know if this thing will work = but here goes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STRUCTUREmodeler/files/Dave%27s%20PRR/ If you can get there you should be able to see a few photos. Dave ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dear Friends: It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or = embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the = rivet counters and nay-sayers. What have we done to the hobby??? There = was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we = HAD things to share. =20 I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are = built. This organization should be sharing information with each other = before we build so that we can build the best model we know how. I = recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for = some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references = which I know some of you have. I only received detailing information = from one person. What does that imply about our chat group's purpose?=20 I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what other = people are doing. I don't like the critical atmosphere because it keeps = the doers from sharing. Elden, bring on your gondolas! I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE = DONE. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Gary and list;=20 I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the cars = and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly. Like I said, I = am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my = layout. I can't get in the league of you guys. Rivets give me the = willies... Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM=20 To: vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)=20 Dave, Elden, list,=20 Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I = have=20 done are both fun and educational and the results are far more than = what=20 I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. = Not=20 sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale,=20 probably not as good.=20 Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to where = the=20 rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as = I am=20 thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a B&O=20 prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th = PRR=20 Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention = last=20 year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, = share=20 photos of your scratch builds......Gary=20 =20 Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art=20 Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>=20 PRR Loco Pics:=20 http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com=20 &=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html=20 and......=20 PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C308F9.F4910710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)
Well, I used s little digital = camra and=20 took some shots of the towers I've built and posted them in a folder = called=20 Dave's PRR which is in the files section of the Structure Modeler group = on=20 Yahoo.  Don't know if this thing will work but here = goes:
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STRUCTUREmodeler/files/Dave%27s%20PRR/=
 
If you can get there you = should be able=20 to see a few photos.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20
To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net=20 ; vinci4@net-link.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 = 12:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch = Buildin=20 (was Enine Service)

Dear Friends:
 
It really concerns me that any = modeler must feel=20 apologetic or embarrassed about his work because of the = anticipated=20 criticism of the rivet counters and nay-sayers.  What have we = done to the=20 hobby???  There was once a time when we shared things and = everyone was=20 grateful that we HAD things to share. 
 
I think it is time to stop being = critical of=20 things AFTER they are built.  This organization should be = sharing=20 information with each other before we build so that we can build the = best=20 model we know how.  I recently asked detailing questions = about E8s=20 because I am gearing up for some superdetailing and don't have a lot = of good=20 diesel photo references which I know some of you = have.  I only=20 received detailing information from one person.  What = does that=20 imply about our chat group's purpose? 
 
I want to see what other people are = doing. I like=20 to see what other people are doing.  I don't like the critical = atmosphere=20 because it keeps the doers from sharing.
 
Elden, bring on your gondolas!  = I AM VERY=20 INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
 
Lew
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 = 2:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: = Scratch Buildin=20 (was Enine Service)

Gary and list;
I am = finishing up my=20 presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe one or two = real=20 ones, at the meet in Philly.  Like I said, I am NOT a good=20 scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my layout.  I = can't=20 get in the league of you guys.  Rivets give me the=20 willies...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM =
To: vinci4@net-link.net =
Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine=20 Service)


Dave, Elden, list,

     Thanks for the kind words = Elden.=20 Projects like those that I have
done are = both fun=20 and educational and the results are far more than what =
I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out = scratch builds.=20 Not
sure what the results would have been = like in=20 HO, my real scale,
probably not as = good.

    Elden, Dave,  and others. = If=20 possible, post some links to where the
rest can view=20 your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I am =
thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale = (of a=20 B&O
prototype, "UN" Tower for our = local=20 Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR
Prototype.=20 Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last =
year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, = anyone,=20 share
photos of your scratch = builds......Gary=20
 





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical=20 Items and  Art
Work!.......and MY = NEW =20 K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html= =20
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html<= /FONT>=20


----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C308F9.F4910710-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:23:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal --part1_186.18b31c07.2bd728eb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who does business at 6:30AM?? I'm sure that 8:00AM will work just as well... C Baker --part1_186.18b31c07.2bd728eb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who does business at 6:30AM??  I'm sure that 8:00= AM will work just as well...

C Baker --part1_186.18b31c07.2bd728eb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:00:16 -0400 PRR Listers: There seems to be a few of us scratchbuilders coming out of the woodwork. I have been building a 1/32 scale PRR L2s USRA light mike for a few months now. The cylinders are done and I have most of the pieces made for the pilot that are awaiting assembly. Everything is brass. I made the master patterns for the pilot details such as the flag/lantern brackets and the coupler lift bar brackets which I then investment cast. Scratch building can be daunting. This is especially true in the larger scales where the detail is more easily seen. I have decided that I would approach each major subassembly as a separate project. For me, I would become frustrated if I had to wait for the entire loco to be finished before I felt that I had "completed something". I will try to post a photo of the cylinders soon for everyone's comment. maybe that way I will actually finish this project! I am afraid that I am easily sidetracked. If I were into furniture making, my first step would be to plant the trees I would use! For example, I made a CNC controlled rivet embosser because I hate uneven rivets and I would go crazy before I would ever get a good tender side! I bought and learned to use a relatively cheap (under $3,000) MAXNC CNC milling machine so I could make things like the cylinder chest ends, and the frame (in planning). It also drills holes in the precise spot you want, too. Well, back to work on the pilot. Bill Box ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service) List, I can attest to Bill's work. When it came to building the Marker Lamps for my B6sb, my results were not so good. Bill stepped to the plate and alerted me about his brass cast markers and other suitable parts. 2 piece, just like the real ones. Unbelieveable detail! They look like the real ones from my collection.. Bill's parts now reside on the B6sb Pilot and Tender. I can imagine what other items he is coming up with for his L2s. Brass is a good medium to work in, if you are a good metal worker. I am not so Styrene fit my bill......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:28:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proposed Model RR Operation --part1_144.fc3c4c8.2bd75467_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/2003 1:04:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > Do you think people would be interested in being towermen rather > than engineers on locals? Does it seem doable? I am a confirmed way freight andf yard man, but I think it would be an interesting change on a busy line. From what I recall of reading about model railroading in the 40s, this was something fairly frequently modeled back then. The last gasp, perhaps, was a series of articles by my hero Gordon Odegard on building a working interlocking plant. It was in MR about 1960 or so. Lee Rainey --part1_144.fc3c4c8.2bd75467_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/22/2003 1:04:03 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:


Do you think people would be in= terested in being towermen rather
than engineers on locals?  Does it seem doable?


I am a confirmed way freight andf yard man, but I think it would be an inter= esting change on a busy line. From what I recall of reading about model rail= roading in the 40s, this was something fairly frequently modeled back then.=20= The last gasp, perhaps, was a series of articles by my hero Gordon Odegard o= n building a working interlocking plant. It was in MR about 1960 or so.

Lee Rainey --part1_144.fc3c4c8.2bd75467_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:56:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units From: Michael E Allen As I catch up with the various groups after a really tough week of trial prep - Didn't the Rio Grande lease some Fs to the PRR or PC for use out of Mingo Junction in the late sixties? Somewhere I believe I have an old copy of Trains with a photograph of same. Mike Allen On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:11:47 EDT Bobspf@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 4/14/03 10:16:38 AM Central Daylight Time, > BPX29@aol.com > writes: > > << Other roads using passenger F's would include the Rock Island, > B&M, NP, > GM&O, SP&S, B&O, Erie, GN, CGW and Monon. I'm sure there's others, > but those > lines came to mind right off. >> > > Rio Grande, IIRC. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:29:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units --part1_19c.13875ddb.2bd770ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike and all... Yes, Penn Central did acquire 4 D&RGW F units, two A units (5721 & 5754) and two B units (5712 & 5733). Who knows why at the point they decided o do that, but... I would have to do some digging but the B units may have been F-5's, I would have to do some digging. Greg Martin > Didn't the Rio Grande lease some Fs to the PRR or PC for use out of Mingo > Junction in the late sixties? Somewhere I believe I have an old copy of > Trains with a photograph of same. > > Mike Allen > --part1_19c.13875ddb.2bd770ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike and all...

Yes, Penn Central did acquire 4 D&RGW F units, two A units (5721 & 5= 754) and two B units (5712 & 5733). Who knows why at the point they deci= ded o do that, but... I would have to do some digging but the B units may ha= ve been F-5's, I would have to do some digging.

Greg Martin

Didn't the Rio Grande lease som= e Fs to the PRR or PC for use out of Mingo
Junction in the late sixties? Somewhere I believe I have an old copy of
Trains with a photograph of same.

Mike Allen 


--part1_19c.13875ddb.2bd770ae_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:30:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] M1b 6704 and M1b 6738 assignments Brian,list, 1 July 1957 MP299, page 14 shows M1b 6704 and M1b 6738 assigned to the Pittsburgh Region. Doug --- Brian J Carlson wrote: > In a previous email I was provided information from > an MP229 regarding the > dates M1b's 6704 > and 6738 (11-19-1958) were dropped from service. > Does the MP 229 also have > the regional assignments around these (summer 1957 > or later) dates. > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lurkers and Passenger F units Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:11:05 -0400 Mike Allen wrote: Didn't the Rio Grande lease some Fs to the PRR or PC for use out of Mingo Junction in the late sixties? Somewhere I believe I have an old copy of Trains with a photograph of same. PC bought 10 D&RGW F units on February 28, 1970 to use for trade-in credit. Out of the 10, 2 A units (D&RGW 5721, 5754) and 2 B units (D&RGW 5712, 5733) were found to be in better shape than what PC had at the time, so they were put into service in D&RGW paint and renumbered by dropping the first digit of the D&RGW number. They later received black paint and were renumbered in the 1870 (F7A) and 3400 (F7B) series. (Info from Yanosey's Penn Central Power). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:29:41 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal > Unfortunately, those wishing to do business in DC or Boston will miss the > TSL's 6:30 arrival time :-( As one who rode the Night Owl (which precded the TSL) regularly, i could never find anything to do in DC at 6:30 AM. Little to do in Bahstahn, either... I guess if one needed to drive.bus.whatever some hours further from either 6:30 AM has its uses... >>>Well, good to see the Federal back, even though it's not quite as >>>fast as in 1957! >>> >> The speed on such trains is set by good >> arrival/departure times, rather than 'my word thats >> fast'. Those wishing speed will go by air... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Decals/Dry Transfers Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:28:24 -0400 List, I want to change some #'s on N5's & N5C's. They had different fonts and styles on them. Does anybody make a "match" for the numbering fonts/styles on the Bowser cabeese? Also, how about the removal of old numbering from Bowser stuff? I've also got a Front Range GP9 that has the newer tall yellow lettering on it and need to remove it to apply decals of the smaller gold block lettering. Any tips on lettering removal of these FR locos? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:41:37 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] MS Train Simulator Question Ted and the group, Here is one group on Yahoo that is made up of PRR oriented folks. I've been a lurker with this group awhile but don't have Train Simulator yet. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-COS/ Doing a "MS Train Simulator" search on Yahoo found some others. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 07:21 PM 4/22/2003 +0000, Ted Andrews wrote: >PRR Gize: > >I just purchased this software this weekend. Overall, I think that it is >great. I have already download F-7 skin files for PRR; they look great on >the NE Corridor. > >Does anyone know if there are other routes that are being developed? Not >necessarily by MS but novices. Last year, there were a few posts on >PRR-Talk regarding the Middle Division on Train Simulator. Does anyone >have the latest news on that? > >I am just starting out on learning the editor commands. Once I get >familiar, I will begin doing PRR lines Specifically, I will do the Ft. >Wayne Line in Indiana (Chicago to Ft. Wayne). If things go well with this >project, I may even attempt to do the Panhandle in Indiana as well as the >Erie / EL. (Boy, am I sounding ambitious!!) :P > >Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:35:26 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Federal Anyone doing business on the Beltway needs to either rent a car or take the metro and possibly a cab. In any event a 6:30 arrival was cutting it close for an 8 AM mtg in Falls Church! If your business is in Union Station you're in great shape with the Federal! Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > Who does business at 6:30AM?? I'm sure that 8:00AM will work just as > well... > > C Baker -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:25:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton Convention is only a week away...yippee! Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. I'll be there, but I'm only 100 miles away. I suspect the usual pair from California will be there...so the long shot will likely have to be from farther away than that. Any Aussies coming? Who all plans to attend? I'll be manning the PENNSYRR.COM tables in the vendors room, so listers, please stop by and say hello and take the opportunity to meet other listers there! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: scratchbuilding, PRR gons, and etc. Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:28:18 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C309AC.F74EFE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lew and all, I certainly didn't mean to imply to anyone that someone criticized my work. Or that some inference about my stuff made me reluctant to get it out there. I have to be honest about my scratchbuilding and not "gold plate" a pig. I am NOT that good a modeler, just persistent. I can't emboss a decent rivet. I can only approximate a straight line. Which brings me to my point. If I can do this stuff ANYONE can. I honestly believe that if I can scratchbuild a simple gon, then anyone can do me one better. And I am challenging you all to do it. I really want to see all these cars that haven't been done by anyone. There are still many unique cars out there to be done. All you have to do is be a bit persistent about getting it done. Now, if you want to see stellar modeling, take a gander at Jack's work. He has done some of the finest HO models I have seen. He's done an ND cabin that would make you salivate. And you should see some of the PRR work Mark Evans is doing. He has an X54 that's a beauty. And an X48 that's the bomb. So now, who is going to get out the riveter and do a 40' PRR box side with the bolster rivet row like they used on the X46? Or better, a 50' box side with the same rivet row like they used on the X51's and others? I know someone has the guts! The rest of the car you could pirate from a Branchline kit. Elden -----Original Message----- From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:35 PM To: Lewis J. Matt PhD Cc: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: E8's Lew, I do not recall seeing the questions you mentioned that you asked recently about detailing E8's. If you could point me to where they are, I might be able to help as I have been doing a lot of research on the F's and invariably have run into E-unit information as well. Jack Consoli P.S. Don't let Elden hand you that crap about him not being a good modeler! ----- Original Message ----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net ; vinci4@net-link.net Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dear Friends: It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the rivet counters and nay-sayers. What have we done to the hobby??? There was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we HAD things to share. I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are built. This organization should be sharing information with each other before we build so that we can build the best model we know how. I recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references which I know some of you have. I only received detailing information from one person. What does that imply about our chat group's purpose? I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what other people are doing. I don't like the critical atmosphere because it keeps the doers from sharing. Elden, bring on your gondolas! I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Gary and list; I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly. Like I said, I am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my layout. I can't get in the league of you guys. Rivets give me the willies... Elden -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [ mailto:mittner@webtv.net ] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM To: vinci4@net-link.net Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dave, Elden, list, Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I have done are both fun and educational and the results are far more than what I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. Not sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale, probably not as good. Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to where the rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I am thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a B&O prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, share photos of your scratch builds......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C309AC.F74EFE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)
Lew and all,
I certainly didn't mean to imply to anyone that someone criticized my work.  Or that some inference about my stuff made me reluctant to get it out there.  I have to be honest about my scratchbuilding and not "gold plate" a pig.
    I am NOT that good a modeler, just persistent.  I can't emboss a decent rivet.  I can only approximate a straight line.  Which brings me to my point.  If I can do this stuff ANYONE can.  I honestly believe that if I can scratchbuild a simple gon, then anyone can do me one better.  And I am challenging you all to do it.  I really want to see all these cars that haven't been done by anyone.  There are still many unique cars out there to be done.  All you have to do is be a bit persistent about getting it done.
    Now, if you want to see stellar modeling, take a gander at Jack's work.  He has done some of the finest HO models I have seen.  He's done an ND cabin that would make you salivate.  And you should see some of the PRR work Mark Evans is doing.  He has an X54 that's a beauty.  And an X48 that's the bomb.
    So now, who is going to get out the riveter and do a 40' PRR box side with the bolster rivet row like they used on the X46?  Or better, a 50' box side with the same rivet row like they used on the X51's and others?  I know someone has the guts!  The rest of the car you could pirate from a Branchline kit.
 
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:35 PM
To: Lewis J. Matt PhD
Cc: ELDEN GATWOOD
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: E8's

Lew,
 
I do not recall seeing the questions you mentioned that you asked recently about detailing E8's. If you could point me to where they are, I might be able to help as I have been doing a lot of research on the F's and invariably have run into E-unit information as well.
 
Jack Consoli
 
 
P.S. Don't let Elden hand you that crap about him not being a good modeler! 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)

Dear Friends:
 
It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the rivet counters and nay-sayers.  What have we done to the hobby???  There was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we HAD things to share. 
 
I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are built.  This organization should be sharing information with each other before we build so that we can build the best model we know how.  I recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references which I know some of you have.  I only received detailing information from one person.  What does that imply about our chat group's purpose? 
 
I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what other people are doing.  I don't like the critical atmosphere because it keeps the doers from sharing.
 
Elden, bring on your gondolas!  I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
 
Lew
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)

Gary and list;
I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly.  Like I said, I am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my layout.  I can't get in the league of you guys.  Rivets give me the willies...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM
To: vinci4@net-link.net
Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)


Dave, Elden, list,

     Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I have
done are both fun and educational and the results are far more than what
I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch builds. Not
sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale,
probably not as good.

    Elden, Dave,  and others. If possible, post some links to where the
rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I am
thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a B&O
prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR
Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the Convention last
year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, share
photos of your scratch builds......Gary
 





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, Historical Items and  Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C309AC.F74EFE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:13:06 -0400 Jerry Britton asked: Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. I'll be there Friday night and Saturday. Ben Hom Arlington, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:54:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention >Convention is only a week away...yippee! > >Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. > >I'll be there, but I'm only 100 miles away. I suspect the usual pair from >California will be there...so the long shot will likely have to be from >farther away than that. Any Aussies coming? > >Who all plans to attend? I'll be arriving Thursday evening from Alabama Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:00:06 -0400 I'll be coming from 1 hour north of NYC. Are the listers planning a get together? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 11:26 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Convention is only a week away...yippee! Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. I'll be there, but I'm only 100 miles away. I suspect the usual pair from California will be there...so the long shot will likely have to be from farther away than that. Any Aussies coming? Who all plans to attend? I'll be manning the PENNSYRR.COM tables in the vendors room, so listers, please stop by and say hello and take the opportunity to meet other listers there! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:11:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/23/03 1:00 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Are the listers planning a get > together? No plans have been made to get PRR-talk listers together formally. This is usually done if someone local to the convention can put something together. Over the past three years in Camp Hill, I have usually welcomed people to "hang out" around one end of my tables in the vendors room. I have three tables and the sign reads PENNSYRR.COM. As for gathering for a list event, perhaps the best opportunity would be a breakfast get-together. Is everyone staying at the hotel? I'll be arriving with Dave Wartell, another list member, late morning on Thursday. I'll be setting up in the vendor's room Thursday afternoon. Unlike previous years, the vendors room will be OFFICIALLY OPEN on Thursday evening. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:16:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours From: Jerry Britton Is there anyone on the list that is involved in the convention planning that can provide a glimpse of what layout tours will be offered? We've seen the program, and know of the regular tours, would be nice to know what layouts will be open for us Friday evening and Sunday afternoon. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:27:59 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: [PRR] Convention Bob Farquharson and I will be landing about noon on Thursday, coming from Charlotte. I guess Bruce has us beat. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:31:55 -0400 Gents, I will be attending for my first time. I'll be tagging along with my dad and taking in everything. As far as I know the UK group isn't going to be there. Allan lewis has a bunch of wedding gigs for his job and John Pearson is busy with Engineering projects on the British Rail. Allan is planning to come over in September though. It'll be my first time but i plan on bringing a car for the model room which i partially scratchbuilt/wrecked. To all who attend. Hopefully i'll see you there. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:33:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/23/03 1:31 PM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > Allan lewis has > a bunch of wedding gigs for his job and John Pearson is > busy with Engineering projects on the British Rail. Shame. Allan can usually be depended upon for one or two bad (but entertaining) jokes during the business meeting. I thought for sure he'd be the farthest one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:23:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Being considerate of others... --part1_179.19410f55.2bd84244_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/23/03 1:13:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Dear Friends: > > It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or = > embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the = > rivet counters and nay-sayers. What have we done to the hobby??? There = > was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we = > HAD things to share. =20 > > I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are = > built. This organization should be sharing information with each other = > before we build so that we can build the best model we know how. I = > recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for = > some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references = > which I know some of you have. I only received detailing information = > from one person. What does that imply about our chat group's purpose?=20 > > I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what other = > people are doing. I don't like the critical atmosphere because it keeps = > the doers from sharing. > > Elden, bring on your gondolas! I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE = > DONE. > > Lew > Lew -- I suspect that your query may be the 37th iteration on this subject or something like that since the list started up. When a list is new, all parties are driven to interact, and lots of info is offered up. As most lists mature, many questions get answered and traffic drops off (we're fortunate that PRR-Talk's overall traffic is holding up). Another point - there may be an unwritten expectation here that you would first examine the common books on Pennsy diesels; if the Withers book on E's is out yet, you need its illustrations at the very minimum. Then you would search the Model Train index, and get some back issue magazines from the publisher or copies from the NMRA library. Of course, it's reasonable to do the index search and then ask the list which of the articles found would be most helpful. While doing all this, be mindful of your era, as that makes a big difference in the details list. You really need to be seen different than the Fast Freddies that locate a list and then ask encyclopedic questions, expecting their listmates to do all the work. I've caught a couple of these characters who seem insulted that all research materials aren't on the web, in the public domain, so they can get everything they want essentially without cost. Personally, think these folks should "freeze in the dark"; they're leeches, not colleagues. ****************************************************************** MY GENERAL THINKING ON CRITICIZING OTHERS' MODELING I agree that criticism of modeling after the fact is easy, cheap, and hurts others' feelings. For example, I'm big on the eras of freight cars and especially freight car lettering schemes (big surprise there). But, after making a couple of rivet-counter type comments that inadvertently insulted modelers I look up to, I figured out long ago that I should keep comments on era, appropriate lettering for an era, correct numbers for a PRR car class, etc. to myself except when asked a direct question. In other words, being on top of some detailed knowledge is a fine hobby. But it's not necessarily the next guy's hobby, and we should respect that, especially since all modeling is an artful compromise. I do know some fine prototype authorities, at the top of their game, who are persona non grata because they are never able to put a cork in it. These are the _______ who give "rivet counting" a bad name. **************************************************************8 Lew, good luck on your research and your parts search. One of these days I've got to follow you and figure out what details to add/delete for PRR E's of 1968. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_179.19410f55.2bd84244_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/23/03 1= :13:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Dear Friends:

  It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or =3D embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the =3D rivet counters and nay-sayers.  What have we done to the hobby??? = There =3D
was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we =3D<= BR> HAD things to share. =3D20

  I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are=20= =3D
built.  This organization should be sharing information with each other= =3D
before we build so that we can build the best model we know how.  I=20= =3D
recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for=20= =3D
some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references=20= =3D
which I know some of you have.  I only received detailing information=20= =3D
from one person.  What does that imply about our chat group's purpose?= =3D20

  I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what other=20= =3D
people are doing.  I don't like the critical atmosphere because it keep= s =3D
the doers from sharing.

  Elden, bring on your gondolas!  I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU= HAVE =3D
DONE.

  Lew


Lew -- I suspect that your query may be the 37th iteration on this subject o= r something like that since the list started up.  When a list is new, a= ll parties are driven to interact, and lots of info is offered up.  As=20= most lists mature, many questions get answered and traffic drops off (we're=20= fortunate that PRR-Talk's overall traffic is holding up).

Another point - there may be an unwritten expectation here that you would fi= rst examine the common books on Pennsy diesels; if the Withers book on E's i= s out yet, you need its illustrations at the very minimum.  Then you wo= uld search the Model Train index, and get some back issue magazines from the= publisher or copies from the NMRA library.  Of course, it's reasonable= to do the index search and then ask the list which of the articles found wo= uld be most helpful.  While doing all this, be mindful of your era, as=20= that makes a big difference in the details list.

You really need to be seen different than the Fast Freddies that locate a li= st and then ask encyclopedic questions, expecting their listmates to do all=20= the work.  I've caught a couple of these characters who seem insulted t= hat all research materials aren't on the web, in the public domain, so they=20= can get everything they want essentially without cost.  Personally, thi= nk these folks should "freeze in the dark"; they're leeches, not colleagues.=

******************************************************************

MY GENERAL THINKING ON CRITICIZING OTHERS' MODELING

I agree that criticism of modeling after the fact is easy, cheap, and hurts=20= others' feelings.  For example, I'm big on the eras of freight cars and= especially freight car lettering schemes (big surprise there).  But, a= fter making a couple of rivet-counter type comments that inadvertently insul= ted modelers I look up to, I figured out long ago that I should keep comment= s on era, appropriate lettering for an era, correct numbers for a PRR car cl= ass, etc. to myself except when asked a direct question.

In other words, being on top of some detailed knowledge is a fine hobby.&nbs= p; But it's not necessarily the next guy's hobby, and we should respect that= , especially since all modeling is an artful compromise.

I do know some fine prototype authorities, at the top of their game, who are= persona non grata because they are never able to put a cork in it.  Th= ese are the _______ who give "rivet counting" a bad name.

**************************************************************8

Lew, good luck on your research and your parts search.  One of these da= ys I've got to follow you and figure out what details to add/delete for PRR=20= E's of 1968.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_179.19410f55.2bd84244_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:24:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Berwind cars --part1_3a.37e434d5.2bd84255_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/03 1:37:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Jerry and all, > > Ben is partially correct. After the Berwind cars were sold > to the PRR they retained they're black paint scheme but > the reporting marks were changed slightly. From BWC to > BWCX. The 'X' was added to give a PRR owership. So Jerry, > you can model the Berwind Cars in 1954 but the repoerting > marks need to be BWCX. > Happy Railroading. > -John Frantz > John, I believe this should be the other way around. As a private owner, Berwind-White would be required to have reporting marks ending in X. Deleting the X tags the cars as railroad owned -- and the July 1966 ORER entry for PRR starts right out with the notation "Reporting Marks "PRR" and "BWC". Incidentally, the listing of BWC cars in that 1966 issue shows 1786 steel hoppers rostered. I'm not sure when they were conveyed to PRR, but this was some time after January 1953's ORER, which NMRA reprinted. Alas, all the pix I can find (for example, Teichmoeller's Steel Hoppers p20) are after 1966. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_3a.37e434d5.2bd84255_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/22/03 1= :37:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Jerry and all,

Ben is partially correct. After the Berwind cars were sold
to the PRR they retained they're black paint scheme but
the reporting marks were changed slightly. From BWC to
BWCX. The 'X' was added to give a PRR owership. So Jerry,
you can model the Berwind Cars in 1954 but the repoerting
marks need to be BWCX.
Happy Railroading.
-John Frantz

John,
I believe this should be the other way around.  As a private owner, Ber= wind-White would be required to have reporting marks ending in X.  Dele= ting the X tags the cars as railroad owned -- and the July 1966 ORER entry f= or PRR starts right out with the notation "Reporting Marks "PRR" and "BWC".<= BR>
Incidentally, the listing of BWC cars in that 1966 issue shows 1786 steel ho= ppers rostered.  I'm not sure when they were conveyed to PRR, but this=20= was some time after January 1953's ORER, which NMRA reprinted.  Alas, a= ll the pix I can find (for example, Teichmoeller's Steel Hoppers p20) are af= ter 1966.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_3a.37e434d5.2bd84255_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind cars --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/22/03 1:37:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Jerry and all, > I believe this should be the other way around. As a private owner, > > Berwind-White would be required to have reporting marks ending in > X. > Deleting the X tags the cars as railroad owned -- and the July 1966 > ORER > entry for PRR starts right out with the notation "Reporting Marks > "PRR" and > "BWC". > > Incidentally, the listing of BWC cars in that 1966 issue shows 1786 > steel > hoppers rostered. I'm not sure when they were conveyed to PRR, but > this was > some time after January 1953's ORER, which NMRA reprinted. Alas, > all the pix > I can find (for example, Teichmoeller's Steel Hoppers p20) are > after 1966. I was around at the time, although not paying close attention. As I recall, the repainting when the BWC cars were transferred to PRR ownership amounted to a neat square of black paint covering the "X". That is, whatever you see in Teichmoeller's pictures, except for the missing X, is probably what you would have seen prior to the transfer. There may have been other minor changes, such as erasing "Return to PRR agent, Windber, Pa" but I don't recall any gross change in the appearance of the cars. Indeed, it was a while before I noticed the missing X. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:53:03 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Jerry Britton wrote: > > Convention is only a week away...yippee! > > Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. > > I'll be there, but I'm only 100 miles away. I suspect the usual pair from > California will be there...so the long shot will likely have to be from > farther away than that. Any Aussies coming? > > Who all plans to attend? > > I'll be manning the PENNSYRR.COM tables in the vendors room, so listers, > please stop by and say hello and take the opportunity to meet other listers > there! I'll be there Thursday and Friday nights and all day Saturday. Between TCA/York this week and PRRT&HS next week, my wallet, gas tank and energy will be exhausted. Guess I'll count GG1's as I drift off to sleep. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:03:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours Jerry and group. I finally got some info on the open houses yesterday. There are 13 layouts open 5 on friday night and all 13 on sunday. They range from Herb George in Randolph NJ to Chuck Cover in Elkton Md. to Bob Jans in Yardley Pa. Hours listed are 7-10 on friday and 12-4/5 on sunday. A few corrections to the list. I live in Eagle Pa not Phoenixville as shown on the map.My rr will be open friday evening 7-11. I've had numerous calls asking when it will be open and didn't know until yesterday when I would be open. The list shows sunday 12-5 only. Paul Backenstose house number is 103 not 102. I have seen all the rr's before except Herb George's and Chuck Covers and all are worth seeing. A number have catenary in place. -----------------------------------------------------------------------Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours Ken Rideout's HO "Pittsburgh Division-Altoona to Cresson" layout will be open on Sunday. Layout features Altoona Station, Alto and Slope interlockings,Horseshoe Curve, SF interlocking,the "Slide", New Portage Tunnel, Allegheny and Galittzin Tunnels with tunnel blowers. Also UN and AR interlockings are included. Layout is 4 tracks wide (5 tracks between MO and AR). All are invited,we'd love to see you! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:15:34 -0400 I'm SAD!!!! I have a board of directors meeting to attend and won't get to the PRRT&HS meet as I had planned. I'll think of all of you while I conduct business. (They think I take notes, but I am really doodling track plans) Lew :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 11:25 AM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention > Convention is only a week away...yippee! > > Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. > > I'll be there, but I'm only 100 miles away. I suspect the usual pair from > California will be there...so the long shot will likely have to be from > farther away than that. Any Aussies coming? > > Who all plans to attend? > > I'll be manning the PENNSYRR.COM tables in the vendors room, so listers, > please stop by and say hello and take the opportunity to meet other listers > there! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Fw: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:36:08 -0400 Add one more for Philly>>>> For the benefit of the pollsters, I'm coming down from Bennington, Vt. See you there-- Fred Freitas [pennsy@sover.net] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:57:58 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR Builders photos and the PRR T&HS convention Hi All, This is for those who are attending the PRR T & HS convention next week. I will be fully equipped to scan, buy, sell and trade PRR Builders photos. My preference BY FAR would be to trade. Here is my collection, with more on the way this week. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRRphotos.xls I have loaded 6 GB (Yes that is GIGA BYTES) on my 80 GB portable hard drive. At about 6 MB a file, that is many photos! I am not currently planning on bringing my Epson 2200 photo printer, as it is quite large. I can also bring my slide scanner. Please bring your first generation photos to the convention and catch up with me. Reply with what you have and want. I am sure we can work something out. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:57:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Builders photos and the PRR T&HS convention Hi All, This is for those who are attending the PRR T & HS convention next week. I will be fully equipped to scan, buy, sell and trade PRR Builders photos. My preference BY FAR would be to trade. Here is my collection, with more on the way this week. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRRphotos.xls I have loaded 6 GB (Yes that is GIGA BYTES) on my 80 GB portable hard drive. At about 6 MB a file, that is many photos! I am not currently planning on bringing my Epson 2200 photo printer, as it is quite large. I can also bring my slide scanner. Please bring your first generation photos to the convention and catch up with me. Reply with what you have and want. I am sure we can work something out. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z_CBYA/vB5FAA/AG3JAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:35:21 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention As Jerry said, I will traveling with him to the convention. Dave At 11:25 AM -0400 4/23/03, Jerry Britton wrote: >Convention is only a week away...yippee! > >Seems every year we kinda poll who all is attending and from how far. > >I'll be there, but I'm only 100 miles away. I suspect the usual pair from >California will be there...so the long shot will likely have to be from >farther away than that. Any Aussies coming? > >Who all plans to attend? > >I'll be manning the PENNSYRR.COM tables in the vendors room, so listers, >please stop by and say hello and take the opportunity to meet other listers >there! >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. (Steve) Sejda" Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:49:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower pictures Grundy Tower: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/grundy.htm Morris Tower: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/morris.htm Fair Tower: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/fair.htm Many more Towers: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/index.htm http://www.internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/ Hope this helps. Steve Sejda (eBay ID: "zoo-tower") On 17 Apr 2003 at 15:52, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Does anyone know of pictures of Grundy, Morris and Fair Towers on the > internet that I can use for modeling purposes? Thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:49:59 -0400 Jerry, List guys: As far as I know there won't be any members from over the atlantic or pacific ponds. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:41:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals/Dry Transfers --part1_7b.f79fc31.2bd8a8d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use an 1/8" diameter wood dowel with a round piece of fine sanding film on the end mounted in an ajustable speed Dremel Tool. At the slowest speed and with the disk at a slight angle to the lettered surface, I gently pass over the painted on number . A little practice on a junk car to get the feel for this method is recommended before tackling the model. This method is quick and avoids having to repaint. The last project this method was used on was the Atlas twin hoppers of the Cambria & Indiana, and the Pittsburg and West Virginia. With a set of CDS 1/8" dry transfer numbers, it took less than an hour to renumber six of each roads hoppers. Much faster and easier than chemical stripping which far too often blemishes the paint. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_7b.f79fc31.2bd8a8d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   I use an 1/8" diameter wood dowel with a round=20= piece of fine sanding film on the end mounted in an ajustable speed Dremel T= ool.  At the slowest speed and with the disk at a slight angle to the l= ettered surface, I gently pass over the painted on number .  A little p= ractice on a junk car to get the feel for this method is recommended before=20= tackling the model.  This method  is quick and avoids having to re= paint.  The last project this method was used on was the Atlas twin hop= pers of the Cambria & Indiana, and the Pittsburg and West Virginia. = ; With a set of CDS 1/8" dry transfer numbers, it took less than an hour to=20= renumber six of each roads hoppers.  Much faster and easier than chemic= al stripping which far too often blemishes the paint.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_7b.f79fc31.2bd8a8d7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:22:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FW: West Chester RR - Horns Stolen Subject: Fw: West Chester RR - Horns Stolen as info. These thefts from rail heritage groups around here are getting distressingly too frequent lately... ----- Original Message ----- From: Schwassg@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: Horns Stolen Please pass on that a set of Nathan 5 Chime Horns were stolen between Thursday, April 17th and Saturday the 19th from locomotive GP-9 # 99 on the West Chester Railroad. We found them missing this morning while setting up for our Easter Bunny Specials. Three out of the Four bolts were removed from the horn on RS-18 #1803 but the thief either changed their mind or was scared off. The horns were in place on Thursday when # 99 was used to pull C-420 #315 to the Yard at West Chester. (See Railpace HotNews). So please spread the word. We have since removed all of our horns. (The 315's Horn and Bell were stolen en-route from Indiana-no surprise these days).. Thank You, Glenn C. Schwass Vice President West Chester Railroad Heritage Association ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/pDi3hB/OC5FAA/AG3JAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:22:30 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] FW: West Chester RR - Horns Stolen Subject: Fw: West Chester RR - Horns Stolen as info. These thefts from rail heritage groups around here are getting distressingly too frequent lately... ----- Original Message ----- From: Schwassg@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: Horns Stolen Please pass on that a set of Nathan 5 Chime Horns were stolen between Thursday, April 17th and Saturday the 19th from locomotive GP-9 # 99 on the West Chester Railroad. We found them missing this morning while setting up for our Easter Bunny Specials. Three out of the Four bolts were removed from the horn on RS-18 #1803 but the thief either changed their mind or was scared off. The horns were in place on Thursday when # 99 was used to pull C-420 #315 to the Yard at West Chester. (See Railpace HotNews). So please spread the word. We have since removed all of our horns. (The 315's Horn and Bell were stolen en-route from Indiana-no surprise these days).. Thank You, Glenn C. Schwass Vice President West Chester Railroad Heritage Association ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:58:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours --part1_1c9.8b9e34e.2bd8bad1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List; In addition to the layout tours, our club's portable layout will also be on display at the hotel. Our group is the Porta-Rail Group from Mt. Laurel, NJ and features mostly PRR modeling on a portable layout which is 14' x 20'. We are setting up Thursday afternoon and will be at the hotel throughout the convention. I am planning to be there Thursday and Friday night, as well as all day Saturday. Please stop by and say hi! Mark Frysztacki --part1_1c9.8b9e34e.2bd8bad1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List;

In addition to the layout tours, our club's portable layout will also be on=20= display at the hotel.  Our group is the Porta-Rail Group from Mt. Laure= l, NJ and features mostly PRR modeling on a portable layout which is 14' x 2= 0'.  We are setting up Thursday afternoon and will be at the hotel thro= ughout the convention.  I am planning to be there Thursday and Friday n= ight, as well as all day Saturday.  Please stop by and say hi!

Mark Frysztacki

 --part1_1c9.8b9e34e.2bd8bad1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower pictures Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:33:50 +0000 Yeah, those pics are mine. If you want higher quality pics contact me at mbrotzman@wesleyan.edu. You can also see my work in the files section of the Yahoo Group "Interlocking Towers". BTA, I just got some new pics of FAIR and they are really good. >From: "Stephen R. (Steve) Sejda" >Reply-To: srsejda@earthlink.net >To: ndbprr@att.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower pictures >Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:49:26 -0400 > >Grundy Tower: > >http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/grundy.htm > >Morris Tower: > >http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/morris.htm > >Fair Tower: > >http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/fair.htm > >Many more Towers: > >http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/index.htm >http://www.internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/ > >Hope this helps. > >Steve Sejda (eBay ID: "zoo-tower") > >On 17 Apr 2003 at 15:52, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > Does anyone know of pictures of Grundy, Morris and Fair Towers on the > > internet that I can use for modeling purposes? Thanks. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:49:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C309FB.52AF0930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)Hi Lew, Thanks.... there are two octagonal towers that I've modeled and the only = ones I've seen photos of are the ones at Kitanning Point and the Tower = that preceeded Alto. Both of these photographs have been published = several times in various places but the source that leaps to mind is the = small half-page book "World Famous Horshoe Curve" on pages 6 and 7. The = plans for these towers have been published at least 2 times I know of... = once in an early issue of the Keystone (don't remember the exact issue = but its one of the early white paper issues), and in the newly published = "Trackside on the Pennsylvania" by Jeff Scherb. I'm not sure when the = octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them there were. Maybe = someone on the list knows. I just liked them and since I'm modeling the = 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in. Sort of like = having both semaphores and position lights since that change was going = on about then. Dave ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: Dave Vinci=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dave: I like the octagonal tower. Where was that located? Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Vinci=20 To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Well, I used s little digital camra and took some shots of the = towers I've built and posted them in a folder called Dave's PRR which is = in the files section of the Structure Modeler group on Yahoo. Don't = know if this thing will work but here goes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STRUCTUREmodeler/files/Dave%27s%20PRR/ If you can get there you should be able to see a few photos. Dave ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dear Friends: It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or = embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the = rivet counters and nay-sayers. What have we done to the hobby??? There = was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we = HAD things to share. =20 I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they are = built. This organization should be sharing information with each other = before we build so that we can build the best model we know how. I = recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up for = some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo references = which I know some of you have. I only received detailing information = from one person. What does that imply about our chat group's purpose?=20 I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what = other people are doing. I don't like the critical atmosphere because it = keeps the doers from sharing. Elden, bring on your gondolas! I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU = HAVE DONE. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Gary and list;=20 I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the = cars and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly. Like I = said, I am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for = my layout. I can't get in the league of you guys. Rivets give me the = willies... Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM=20 To: vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)=20 Dave, Elden, list,=20 Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that I = have=20 done are both fun and educational and the results are far more = than what=20 I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch = builds. Not=20 sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real scale, = probably not as good.=20 Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to = where the=20 rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers = as I am=20 thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a = B&O=20 prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a = 1:29th PRR=20 Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the = Convention last=20 year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, = anyone, share=20 photos of your scratch builds......Gary=20 =20 Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and = Art=20 Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>=20 PRR Loco Pics:=20 http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com=20 &=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html=20 and......=20 PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C309FB.52AF0930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)
Hi Lew,
Thanks.... there are two = octagonal towers=20 that I've modeled and the only ones I've seen photos of are the ones at=20 Kitanning Point and the Tower that preceeded Alto.  Both of these=20 photographs have been published several times in various places but the = source=20 that leaps to mind is the small half-page book "World Famous Horshoe = Curve" on=20 pages 6 and 7.  The plans for these towers have been published at = least 2=20 times I know of... once in an early issue of the Keystone (don't = remember the=20 exact issue but its one of the early white paper issues), and in the = newly=20 published "Trackside on the Pennsylvania" by Jeff Scherb.   = I'm not=20 sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them there = were. =20 Maybe someone on the list knows.  I just liked them and since I'm = modeling=20 the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in.  Sort = of like=20 having both semaphores and position lights since that change was going = on about=20 then.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 = 6:27=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch = Buildin=20 (was Enine Service)

Dave:
 
I like the octagonal tower.  = Where was that=20 located?
 
Lew
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave=20 Vinci
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 = 6:06=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: = Scratch Buildin=20 (was Enine Service)

Well, I used s little = digital camra=20 and took some shots of the towers I've built and posted them in a = folder=20 called Dave's PRR which is in the files section of the Structure = Modeler=20 group on Yahoo.  Don't know if this thing will work but here=20 goes:
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STRUCTUREmodeler/files/Dave%27s%20PRR/=
 
If you can get there you = should be=20 able to see a few photos.
Dave
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Lewis = J. Matt=20 PhD
To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net ; vinci4@net-link.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, = 2003 12:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: = Scratch=20 Buildin (was Enine Service)

Dear Friends:
 
It really concerns me that any = modeler must=20 feel apologetic or embarrassed about his work because of the=20 anticipated criticism of the rivet counters and nay-sayers.  = What=20 have we done to the hobby???  There was once a time when we = shared=20 things and everyone was grateful that we HAD things to = share. =20
 
I think it is time to stop being = critical of=20 things AFTER they are built.  This organization should = be=20 sharing information with each other before we build so that we can = build=20 the best model we know how.  I recently asked detailing=20 questions about E8s because I am gearing up for some = superdetailing and=20 don't have a lot of good diesel photo references which I know some = of you=20 have.  I only received detailing information from=20 one person.  What does that imply about our chat = group's=20 purpose? 
 
I want to see what other people = are doing. I=20 like to see what other people are doing.  I don't like the = critical=20 atmosphere because it keeps the doers from sharing.
 
Elden, bring on your = gondolas!  I AM=20 VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
 
Lew
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN GATWOOD
Sent: Monday, April 21, = 2003 2:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: = Scratch=20 Buildin (was Enine Service)

Gary and list;
I am = finishing up=20 my presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe one = or two=20 real ones, at the meet in Philly.  Like I said, I am NOT a = good=20 scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my = layout.  I=20 can't get in the league of you guys.  Rivets give me the=20 willies...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM =
To: vinci4@net-link.net=20
Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com =
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)=20


Dave, Elden, list,

     Thanks for the kind = words=20 Elden. Projects like those that I have
done are=20 both fun and educational and the results are far more than = what=20
I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first = all out=20 scratch builds. Not
sure what the = results would=20 have been like in HO, my real scale,
probably=20 not as good.

    Elden, Dave,  and = others. If=20 possible, post some links to where the
rest can=20 view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as I = am=20
thinking of doing one in the future of either = an O=20 Scale (of a B&O
prototype, "UN" = Tower for=20 our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th PRR
Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the = Convention=20 last
year got my interests up for a = larger scale=20 model. Again, anyone, share
photos of = your=20 scratch builds......Gary
 =20





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical Items and  Art
Work!.......and=20 MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> =

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html= =20
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html<= /FONT>=20


----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20 =

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C309FB.52AF0930-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:28:41 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Bruswick Green v DGLE While web surfing at a British site ( the Northampton and Lamport railway http://www.nlr.org.uk/Welcome.htm) I found this reference to our favorite color: "In 1977 PWM651 was repainted from Bruwnswick Green into a lighter shade of green with a white roof and standard BR double arrow symbol." I am attempting to contact the folks there to find out if that is the official name for BR dark green locomotive enamel.......... Jim McDaniel, in Northampton County, part of very green Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:36:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Special Announcement -- Excursion Slated From: Jerry Britton I am pleased to announce a special excursion hosted by the Juniata Terminal. On July 19-20, the Warrior Ridge parlor and the 120 business car will be placed on the rear of Amtrak's Pennsylvanian for the trip from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh on Saturday, returning on Sunday. This trip is limited to 25 Pennsylvania Railroad fans. Details and reservation materials are available via the Timetable page on Keystone Crossings at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d Thanks, Bennett! (The Listmaster has granted an exemption on announcing this event on other than the 1st and 15th day of the month, when announcements of commercial nature are normally posted.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bruswick Green v DGLE Jim, I think it was mentioned here before at one time or another that the English version of Brunswick Green was a Green color, NOT dark like DGLE at all. I am thinking their version is like our forest green. Something like that was found on the Flying Socttsman. If it wasn't this discussion board it was another....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:17:44 -0400 (EDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] What is next? Seeing the anouncement of the BLI J1a leaves me wondering what is next to come in plastic Pennsy engines. I wonder if Bachmann will get smart and use their K4 boiler for a L1. My hope is that we will see a I1sa and a P5a. Also, as an aside, BLI has pictures up of their upcoming Heavy Mikado. I hope that May will bring pictures of the upcoming M1a/b. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: [PRR] Octagonal Towers Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:17:26 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C30A4A.B45B5D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found the other drawing of an Octagonal tower. It was in the June = 1973 issue of the Keystone. On the back cover is the picture of the = octagonal tower that was photographed in the 1870s and preceeded Alto = tower Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C30A4A.B45B5D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found the other drawing of = an Octagonal=20 tower.  It was in the June 1973 issue of the Keystone.  On the = back=20 cover is the picture of the octagonal tower that was photographed = in the=20 1870s and preceeded Alto tower
 
Dave 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C30A4A.B45B5D10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:19:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Custom Painting Needed --part1_16b.1da919d1.2bd94c87_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Group; I have some brass steam and diesel loco's that I need to have painted in PRR.I can no longer see well enough to take on this task.Can anyone recommend an excellent custom painter? If anyone does this kind of work please contact me at EMACGIS@aol.com THANKS for any input E.J. --part1_16b.1da919d1.2bd94c87_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Group;

I have some brass steam and diesel loco's that I need to have painted in PRR= .I can no longer see well enough to take on this task.Can anyone recommend a= n excellent
custom painter? If anyone does this kind of work please contact me at EMACGI= S@aol.com

THANKS for any input
E.J. --part1_16b.1da919d1.2bd94c87_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:04:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Walthers 4-4-2 The 4-4-2s and 6-6-4s just showed up at Charles Ro. I picked up a PRR 4-4-2. It was too pretty to pass up but now I have several quandaries: 1.. The A/C is wrong for the PRR (Waukesha was not allowed in NYC tunnels) 2. I don't remember the PRR having upper section windows - I have to check this out. 3. Since I model post war, I have to decide what kind of train to run this car in. The Bway, and other top of the line trains were running postwar 4-4-2s. But the lesser trains to which the prewar sleepers tended to be delegated rarely needed the luxury of a 4-4-2! Who knows where one of these ran in 1952? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/pDi3hB/OC5FAA/AG3JAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:04:55 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 The 4-4-2s and 6-6-4s just showed up at Charles Ro. I picked up a PRR 4-4-2. It was too pretty to pass up but now I have several quandaries: 1.. The A/C is wrong for the PRR (Waukesha was not allowed in NYC tunnels) 2. I don't remember the PRR having upper section windows - I have to check this out. 3. Since I model post war, I have to decide what kind of train to run this car in. The Bway, and other top of the line trains were running postwar 4-4-2s. But the lesser trains to which the prewar sleepers tended to be delegated rarely needed the luxury of a 4-4-2! Who knows where one of these ran in 1952? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:27:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/03 12:04 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > 2. I don't remember the PRR having upper section windows - I have to > check this out. Sounds like the pre-war 4-4-2 > 3. Since I model post war, I have to decide what kind of train to run > this car in. The Bway, and other top of the line trains were running > postwar 4-4-2s. But the lesser trains to which the prewar sleepers > tended to be delegated rarely needed the luxury of a 4-4-2! Who knows > where one of these ran in 1952? I don't have the source material in front of my, just access to summaries. If I recall, class PS442 were the post-war ACF Plan 9009/9011 cars. The Class PS442 cars were the pre-war PS cars built to plan 4069. If the above is correct, here are the assignments I can confirm based on actual PRR documentation for 2/1/1954... IMPERIAL TERRACE was assigned to the South Wind IMPERIAL PARK was assigned to the South Wind * IMPERIAL RANGE was assigned to the South Wind IMPERIAL PLATEAU was assigned to the South Wind IMPERIAL PASS was assigned offline to the SF * IMPERIAL POINT was assigned offline to the SF * IMPERIAL VIEW was assigned to Atlantic City-Pittsburgh (on 1038 / 36-1003) IMPERIAL LAWN was in the "extra pool" IMPERIAL PATH was in the "extra pool" IMPERIAL TRAIL was in the "extra pool" IMPERIAL MANTLE was in the "extra pool" *Still wearing two-tone grey interchange livery. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:42:16 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Jerry, Yes, they are prewar, but I still need to confirm that the PRR cars had the upper section windows. Not all prewar cars did, and not all prewar cars kept them. They were filled in in later years on a lot of roads (they leaked when it rained). Thanx for the 1954 assignments. Its as I feared. The western ers are in luck, but modeling the east, the best I can do is "pool assignment" and guess where they might have shown up. Well, I'm better off than the poor suckers who buy a Walthers PRR 6-6-4 !! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 4/24/03 12:04 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > > > 2. I don't remember the PRR having upper section windows - I have to > > check this out. > > Sounds like the pre-war 4-4-2 > > > 3. Since I model post war, I have to decide what kind of train to run > > this car in. The Bway, and other top of the line trains were running > > postwar 4-4-2s. But the lesser trains to which the prewar sleepers > > tended to be delegated rarely needed the luxury of a 4-4-2! Who knows > > where one of these ran in 1952? > > I don't have the source material in front of my, just access to summaries. > If I recall, class PS442 were the post-war ACF Plan 9009/9011 cars. The > Class PS442 cars were the pre-war PS cars built to plan 4069. > > If the above is correct, here are the assignments I can confirm based on > actual PRR documentation for 2/1/1954... > > IMPERIAL TERRACE was assigned to the South Wind > IMPERIAL PARK was assigned to the South Wind * > IMPERIAL RANGE was assigned to the South Wind > IMPERIAL PLATEAU was assigned to the South Wind > IMPERIAL PASS was assigned offline to the SF * > IMPERIAL POINT was assigned offline to the SF * > IMPERIAL VIEW was assigned to Atlantic City-Pittsburgh (on 1038 / 36-1003) > IMPERIAL LAWN was in the "extra pool" > IMPERIAL PATH was in the "extra pool" > IMPERIAL TRAIL was in the "extra pool" > IMPERIAL MANTLE was in the "extra pool" > > *Still wearing two-tone grey interchange livery. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:44:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/03 12:42 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > > Thanx for the 1954 assignments. Its as I feared. The western ers are in > luck, but modeling the east, the best I can do is "pool assignment" and guess > where they might have shown up. By '54, a surprising number of the post-war 4-4-2's were also in pool service. > > Well, I'm better off than the poor suckers who buy a Walthers PRR 6-6-4 !! > Indeed. Could be worse: dome! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:48:00 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers 6-6-4 was 4-4-2 Since these cars were used extensively by the UP, were any used for the through passenger service by UP? If so I might grab one in UP to run on the appripriate train. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Keith" Subject: [PRR] Lilly, PA in thelate 1940s Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:04:04 -0700 Hi All, I have a couple of questions about Lilly, PA south of Cresson. Was there a station there in the late 1940s ('45-'50) and what kind of engine services were there such as water and coal. I remember reading in one of the Triumph books that the station was razed in the 1920s and that only a water "bridge" remained. I'm in the early stages of planning a layout and I want to see if I can justify engine service and a station there in the late 1940s or if Cresson was it. Thanks in advance for your help. -- Doug _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:34:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: 1945 Scientific American From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" A colleague just handed me a copy of the March 1945 Scientific American (the 100th anniversary issue) which is devoted to railroading. On the cover is a photo of PRR 6200 representing the latest and greatest. Inside is the "Story of American Railroads. It starts with a history of early railroading and then covers the latest in metals technology, plastics, electronics, etc. The subscription rate in 1954 was $4 per year. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:29:06 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01C30A97.C5B63CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)Dave: I have the original PRR drawings of an octagonal crossing guard or = watchman's building from 1888. It is really cool. I redrew it in ink = to 1/2" =3D 1'-0" scale and want to build it in 1/4" scale in styrene = for my On30" modular layout. Its just a little too old fashioned for my = HO 1950ish PRR. =20 I will look for the plans for the octagonal tower, now that I know they = exist, and make one in 1/4" scale. Thanks for the info. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Vinci=20 To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service) Hi Lew, Thanks.... there are two octagonal towers that I've modeled and the = only ones I've seen photos of are the ones at Kitanning Point and the = Tower that preceeded Alto. Both of these photographs have been = published several times in various places but the source that leaps to = mind is the small half-page book "World Famous Horshoe Curve" on pages 6 = and 7. The plans for these towers have been published at least 2 times = I know of... once in an early issue of the Keystone (don't remember the = exact issue but its one of the early white paper issues), and in the = newly published "Trackside on the Pennsylvania" by Jeff Scherb. I'm = not sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them there = were. Maybe someone on the list knows. I just liked them and since I'm = modeling the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in. = Sort of like having both semaphores and position lights since that = change was going on about then. Dave ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: Dave Vinci=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dave: I like the octagonal tower. Where was that located? Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Vinci=20 To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Well, I used s little digital camra and took some shots of the = towers I've built and posted them in a folder called Dave's PRR which is = in the files section of the Structure Modeler group on Yahoo. Don't = know if this thing will work but here goes: = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STRUCTUREmodeler/files/Dave%27s%20PRR/ If you can get there you should be able to see a few photos. Dave ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Dear Friends: It really concerns me that any modeler must feel apologetic or = embarrassed about his work because of the anticipated criticism of the = rivet counters and nay-sayers. What have we done to the hobby??? There = was once a time when we shared things and everyone was grateful that we = HAD things to share. =20 I think it is time to stop being critical of things AFTER they = are built. This organization should be sharing information with each = other before we build so that we can build the best model we know how. = I recently asked detailing questions about E8s because I am gearing up = for some superdetailing and don't have a lot of good diesel photo = references which I know some of you have. I only received detailing = information from one person. What does that imply about our chat = group's purpose?=20 I want to see what other people are doing. I like to see what = other people are doing. I don't like the critical atmosphere because it = keeps the doers from sharing. Elden, bring on your gondolas! I AM VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU = HAVE DONE. Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) Gary and list;=20 I am finishing up my presentation, but will have slides of the = cars and maybe one or two real ones, at the meet in Philly. Like I = said, I am NOT a good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for = my layout. I can't get in the league of you guys. Rivets give me the = willies... Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 AM=20 To: vinci4@net-link.net=20 Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service)=20 Dave, Elden, list,=20 Thanks for the kind words Elden. Projects like those that = I have=20 done are both fun and educational and the results are far more = than what=20 I imagined. Those G Scale items are my first all out scratch = builds. Not=20 sure what the results would have been like in HO, my real = scale,=20 probably not as good.=20 Elden, Dave, and others. If possible, post some links to = where the=20 rest can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some = towers as I am=20 thinking of doing one in the future of either an O Scale (of a = B&O=20 prototype, "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a = 1:29th PRR=20 Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO Towers at the = Convention last=20 year got my interests up for a larger scale model. Again, = anyone, share=20 photos of your scratch builds......Gary=20 =20 Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and = Art=20 Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>=20 PRR Loco Pics:=20 http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com=20 &=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html=20 and......=20 PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:=20 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01C30A97.C5B63CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)
Dave:
 
I have the original PRR drawings of an = octagonal=20 crossing guard or watchman's building from 1888.  It is really = cool. =20 I redrew it in ink to 1/2" =3D 1'-0" scale and want to build it in 1/4" = scale in=20 styrene for my On30" modular layout.  Its just a little too old = fashioned=20 for my HO 1950ish PRR. 
 
I will look for the plans for the = octagonal tower,=20 now that I know they exist, and make one in 1/4" scale.
 
Thanks for the info.
 
Lew
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave Vinci=20
To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 = 12:49=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch = Buildin=20 (was Engine Service)

Hi Lew,
Thanks.... there are two = octagonal=20 towers that I've modeled and the only ones I've seen photos of are the = ones at=20 Kitanning Point and the Tower that preceeded Alto.  Both of these = photographs have been published several times in various places but = the source=20 that leaps to mind is the small half-page book "World Famous Horshoe = Curve" on=20 pages 6 and 7.  The plans for these towers have been published at = least 2=20 times I know of... once in an early issue of the Keystone (don't = remember the=20 exact issue but its one of the early white paper issues), and in the = newly=20 published "Trackside on the Pennsylvania" by Jeff Scherb.   = I'm not=20 sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them there=20 were.  Maybe someone on the list knows.  I just liked them = and since=20 I'm modeling the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit = in. =20 Sort of like having both semaphores and position lights since that = change was=20 going on about then.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis = J. Matt=20 PhD
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, = 2003 6:27=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: = Scratch Buildin=20 (was Enine Service)

Dave:
 
I like the octagonal tower.  = Where was=20 that located?
 
Lew
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Dave=20 Vinci
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, = 2003 6:06=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: = Scratch=20 Buildin (was Enine Service)

Well, I used s little = digital camra=20 and took some shots of the towers I've built and posted them in a = folder=20 called Dave's PRR which is in the files section of the Structure = Modeler=20 group on Yahoo.  Don't know if this thing will work but here=20 goes:
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STRUCTUREmodeler/files/Dave%27s%20PRR/=
 
If you can get there = you should be=20 able to see a few photos.
Dave
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Lewis J. Matt=20 PhD
To: ELDEN GATWOOD ; mittner@webtv.net ; vinci4@net-link.net =
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, = 2003 12:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: = Scratch=20 Buildin (was Enine Service)

Dear Friends:
 
It really concerns me that any = modeler must=20 feel apologetic or embarrassed about his work because of = the=20 anticipated criticism of the rivet counters and = nay-sayers.  What=20 have we done to the hobby???  There was once a time when we = shared=20 things and everyone was grateful that we HAD things to = share. =20
 
I think it is time to stop = being critical=20 of things AFTER they are built.  This organization = should be=20 sharing information with each other before we build so that we = can build=20 the best model we know how.  I recently asked = detailing=20 questions about E8s because I am gearing up for some = superdetailing and=20 don't have a lot of good diesel photo references which I know = some of=20 you have.  I only received detailing information = from=20 one person.  What does that imply about our chat = group's=20 purpose? 
 
I want to see what other people = are doing.=20 I like to see what other people are doing.  I don't like = the=20 critical atmosphere because it keeps the doers from=20 sharing.
 
Elden, bring on your = gondolas!  I AM=20 VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
 
Lew
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN GATWOOD =
To: 'mittner@webtv.net' ; = vinci4@net-link.net =
Sent: Monday, April 21, = 2003 2:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: = Scratch=20 Buildin (was Enine Service)

Gary and list;
I = am finishing=20 up my presentation, but will have slides of the cars and maybe = one or=20 two real ones, at the meet in Philly.  Like I said, I am = NOT a=20 good scratchbuilder, but I had to have these cars for my = layout. =20 I can't get in the league of you guys.  Rivets give me = the=20 willies...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net=20 [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]=20
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:03 = AM=20
To: vinci4@net-link.net=20
Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com =
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine = Service)=20


Dave, Elden, list,

     Thanks for the kind = words=20 Elden. Projects like those that I have
done=20 are both fun and educational and the results are far more than = what
I imagined. Those G Scale items = are my=20 first all out scratch builds. Not
sure what=20 the results would have been like in HO, my real scale,=20
probably not as good.

    Elden, Dave,  and = others. If=20 possible, post some links to where the
rest=20 can view your work of arts. I am anxious to see some towers as = I=20 am
thinking of doing one in the = future of=20 either an O Scale (of a B&O
prototype,=20 "UN" Tower for our local Historical Society) or a 1:29th = PRR=20
Prototype. Seeing those Scratch Built HO = Towers at=20 the Convention last
year got my = interests up=20 for a larger scale model. Again, anyone, share =
photos of your scratch builds......Gary =
 





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, = Models,=20 Historical Items and  Art
Work!.......and=20 MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB = PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com=20

&

http:/= /www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html=20
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: =

http://www.= angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html=20


----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.=20 =

------=_NextPart_000_01DA_01C30A97.C5B63CE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Tom V. returns!!!! --0-2112942400-1051228942=:40978 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear beloved brothers of the Keystone, I have returned from the wilderness. I have survived!!!!! The divorce was final on income tax day, April 15, 2003, ending the worst four years of my life. I anticipate reactivating my PRRT&HS membership as soon as I am able, financially. Unfortunately, despite some promising research, they still haven't found a cure for Parkinson's (unless Brother Bej has some good news). The good news is that I'm doing much better on my current suite of meds. I've returned to the mobility level I was at in April 2000 when ya'll met me at the Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia, Ohio. I'm anticipating organizing another. One plus side of the September 2000 F4 twiater that destoryed the Greene County Fairgrounds in Xenia is that we have a nuch inproved exhibition faciltiy. Tom V. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-2112942400-1051228942=:40978 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Dear beloved brothers of the Keystone, I have returned from the wilderness. I have survived!!!!!
 
  The divorce was final on income tax day, April 15, 2003, ending the worst four years of my life. I anticipate reactivating my PRRT&HS membership as soon as I am able, financially. Unfortunately, despite some promising research, they still haven't found a cure for Parkinson's (unless Brother Bej has some good news). The good news is that I'm doing much better on my current suite of meds. I've returned to the mobility level I was at in April 2000 when ya'll met me at the Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia, Ohio. I'm anticipating organizing another. One plus side of the September 2000 F4 twiater that destoryed the Greene County Fairgrounds in Xenia is that we have a nuch inproved exhibition faciltiy.
 
Tom V.


Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-2112942400-1051228942=:40978-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lilly, PA in thelate 1940s Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:06:30 -0400 I have a public timetable for Pittsburgh to Altoona dated 9/30/1937 and at that time there still were passenger trains stopping at Lilly. My Pittsburgh Division employee timetable dated 9/27/1942 stills lists passenger stops but they were gone by my Pittsburgh Region employee timetable dated 4/29/1956. Duane Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Keith" To: Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:04 PM Subject: [PRR] Lilly, PA in thelate 1940s > Hi All, > > I have a couple of questions about Lilly, PA south of Cresson. Was there a > station there in the late 1940s ('45-'50) and what kind of engine services > were there such as water and coal. I remember reading in one of the Triumph > books that the station was razed in the 1920s and that only a water "bridge" > remained. I'm in the early stages of planning a layout and I want to see if > I can justify engine service and a station there in the late 1940s or if > Cresson was it. Thanks in advance for your help. -- Doug > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:18:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tom V. returns!!!! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Excellent to hear from you, Tom! On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 08:02 PM, Tom Vondruska wrote: > Dear beloved brothers of the Keystone, I have returned from the > wilderness. I have survived!!!!! >   >   The divorce was final on income tax day, April 15, 2003, ending the > worst four years of my life. I anticipate reactivating my PRRT&HS > membership as soon as I am able, financially. Unfortunately, despite > some promising research, they still haven't found a cure > for Parkinson's (unless Brother Bej has some good news). The good news > is that I'm doing much better on my current suite of meds. I've > returned to the mobility level I was at in April 2000 when ya'll met > me at the Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia, Ohio. I'm anticipating > organizing another. One plus side of the September 2000 F4 twiater > that destoryed the Greene County Fairgrounds in Xenia is that we have > a nuch inproved exhibition faciltiy. >   ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:19:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lilly, PA in thelate 1940s From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" I think most of the smaller stops -- Lilly, Cresson, Gallitzin -- stopped in the late '40's to early '50's. On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 09:06 PM, Duane C. Miller wrote: > I have a public timetable for Pittsburgh to Altoona dated 9/30/1937 > and at > that time there still were passenger trains stopping at Lilly. My > Pittsburgh Division employee timetable dated 9/27/1942 stills lists > passenger stops but they were gone by my Pittsburgh Region employee > timetable dated 4/29/1956. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:27:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3134053662_59389_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark: What scale is your club layout? Doug. ---------- From: MarkCFry@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours Date: Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 8:58 PM List; In addition to the layout tours, our club's portable layout will also be on display at the hotel. Our group is the Porta-Rail Group from Mt. Laurel, NJ and features mostly PRR modeling on a portable layout which is 14' x 20'. We are setting up Thursday afternoon and will be at the hotel throughout the convention. I am planning to be there Thursday and Friday night, as well as all day Saturday. Please stop by and say hi! Mark Frysztacki --MS_Mac_OE_3134053662_59389_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours Mark:

What scale is your club layout?

Doug.

----------
From: MarkCFry@aol.com
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 8:58 PM


List;

In addition to the layout tours, our club's portable layout will also be on= display at the hotel.  Our group is the Porta-Rail Group from Mt. Laur= el, NJ and features mostly PRR modeling on a portable layout which is 14' x = 20'.  We are setting up Thursday afternoon and will be at the hotel thr= oughout the convention.  I am planning to be there Thursday and Friday = night, as well as all day Saturday.  Please stop by and say hi!

Mark Frysztacki


--MS_Mac_OE_3134053662_59389_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Keystone....has it arrived yet?? Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:11:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C30AA6.1F63F800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR-Listers: Can someone on the list confirm for arrival of the latest issue of the = Keystone. Were members receiving it in the mail about 2 -weeks ago? I = have not received mine yet. It may have gotten lost in the mail. Has = anyone had this problem before? Thanks in advance! Keystone-less in Indiana Ted Andrews Mem. No. 2338 ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C30AA6.1F63F800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR-Listers:
 
Can someone on the list confirm for arrival of the latest issue of = the=20 Keystone. Were members receiving it in the mail about 2  -weeks = ago? I have=20 not received mine yet. It may have gotten lost in the mail. Has anyone = had this=20 problem before? Thanks in advance!
 
Keystone-less in Indiana
 
Ted  Andrews Mem. No. 2338
------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C30AA6.1F63F800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:24:42 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Enine Service) A company by the name of Laser Horizons was considering a kit for the octagonal tower a couple of years ago. Jerry's Merchandise Service lists the Laser Horizons passenger car sides. You might be able to ask about the tower through Jerry. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:32:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Jerry, The PRR plan book you loaned me shows the prewar PS442 cars as having the upper berth windows as built, which is how I have made them. There are photos besides the plans. Interestingly in the NYC book of plans, they show a photo of the PRR car. Apparently the authors could not find one with an NYC name, since Pullman made them for both. The Pennsy & NYC cars had one special window that was placed differently from the plans, and this shows clearly in the photo. Regards, Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:38:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lilly, PA in thelate 1940s --part1_12c.28b29985.2bd9f993_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1948, Lilly had one train (number 19) scheduled with a flagstop. There was no ticket office. Rich Orr --part1_12c.28b29985.2bd9f993_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In 1948, Lilly had one train (number 19) scheduled wit= h a flagstop.  There was no ticket office.

Rich Orr --part1_12c.28b29985.2bd9f993_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:42:54 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Rails Northeast magazine...trading? Hi all, I've been working on completing my collection of Rails Northeasts and am about a dozen short. I've also managed to accumulate quite a stash of duplicates. Does anyone else have some extras that they'd like to trade? I have a list of issues I have... I'll be at the PRRT&HS meeting next week so maybe we can work something out! (I also have an extra Pennsy Journal Volume 5 if anyone has any of the later issues to trade.) Thanks, Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:19:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone....has it arrived yet?? From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3134096357_6549683 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4/24/03 10:11 PM, "Ted Andrews" wrote: > Can someone on the list confirm for arrival of the latest issue of the > Keystone. Were members receiving it in the mail about 2 -weeks ago? I have > not received mine yet. It may have gotten lost in the mail. Has anyone had > this problem before? Thanks in advance! > Arrived in Etters (Harrisburg/York) PA about two weeks ago. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3134096357_6549683 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Keystone....has it arrived yet?? On 4/24/03 10:11 PM, "Ted Andrews" <Ted_A= ndrews@msn.com> wrote:

Can someone on the list confirm for= arrival of the latest issue of the Keystone. Were members receiving it in t= he mail about 2  -weeks ago? I have not received mine yet. It may have = gotten lost in the mail. Has anyone had this problem before? Thanks in advan= ce!
 

Arrived in Etters (Harrisburg/York) PA about two weeks ago.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3134096357_6549683-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:00 +0100 Dear all, Gather round. I have a cautionary 'tail' I'd like to pass on in the hope it might avert a similar disaster to some of you in the future. What follows occurred over Easter weekend while I had my layout at the Barrow in Furness Model Railway Exhibition. These days my P87 layout is packed away between exhibitions and resides beneath the benchwork of the standard HO layout which is in the throes of a major rebuild. Likewise, the locos and rolling stock which are packed into a Curver box with layers of foam plastic padding. And after the Newcastle Show last November this was the situation as usual and all was duly removed and packed into the van for the drive over to Barrow. Sometime on the Thursday evening while assembling the layout one of the crew announced that there seemed to be ' ..... something stuck to the wheels of the rolling stock'. It did not take long to work out what had happened .... the stink was enough evidence even before I'd seen the disaster. All the stock on the bottom layer, which included five out of my six P87 locos had their wheels, couplers and indeed anything metal covered in what looked like a concoction of rust, green slime and cinder toffee. Nightmare ......! ! ! Over the course of the last month or so one of my cats must have climbed into the open topped box and piddled. The noxious mixture then must have reacted with everything it could reach, including the foam. You can see the results on a web page I've put up as a warning to modellers who live with cats . . . . . at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/p87/disaster.htm Be warned ..... it's not for the faint hearted. I'm considering whether to carry on exhibiting the layout any more but will make a decision in a couple of weeks or so when I'm 'feline' a bit calmer. Just 'paws' for thought and keep a lid on your stock boxes. PS. Please don't respond with cat-retribution stuff. It's not the animals' fault, just one of those things. The pleasure of having pets far outweighs what they get up to .... unless they have chewed up your winning lottery ticket, of course :-) Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] New PRR stuff Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:07:42 +0000 This is from the Trains.Com website. There is a picture of the tower under the 4/24 new offerings. Model Tech Studios has released a laser-cut interlocking tower kit. The kit, inspired by the Pennsylvania RR’s “J” tower (a.k.a. Lemo tower), features laser cut and etched framework, paneling, positionable windows and doors, inset panel detailing, and three roof bracket styles. The tower kit is $69. Model Tech Studios, 70 High St., Hampton, NH 03842; www.modeltechstudios.com. Westerfield has released a Pennsylvania RR class X23 boxcar kit. The kit features a one-piece body and a separate roof and doors. The car will be offered in the following road names and versions: Pennsylvania RR (original, new roof, plate door with new roof, Youngstown door with new roof, plate door with old roof, and Youngstown door with old roof), PL Union Line (original), and Vandalia Line/Cumberland Valley (original). The Pennsy cars are $35 each and the PL Union Line and Vandalia Line/Cumberland Valley cars are $36. Westerfield, 53 River Ln., Crossville, TN 38555. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone....has it arrived yet?? --part1_138.1ec634de.2bdac6b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mine arrived in Baltimore about 2 weeks ago. C Baker #1918 --part1_138.1ec634de.2bdac6b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mine arrived in Baltimore about 2 weeks ago.

C Baker #1918 --part1_138.1ec634de.2bdac6b7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:14:43 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tom V. returns!!!! Tom, Welcome home! We all missed your informative insight into Lines West! Life is Good! I have bookmarked yoou new address. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:00:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/24/03 --0-2099110781-1051300843=:30268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves, Federal Street tower in Pittsburgh was octagon, was it not? And brick, too. Admittedly, not all sides were equal length, and I think only the second story was that shape.Pat EganChicago PRR-Talk wrote: From: Dave Vinci=20 To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service) Hi Lew, ... I'm not sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them there = were. Maybe someone on the list knows. I just liked them and since I'm = modeling the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in... Dave --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-2099110781-1051300843=:30268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
If memory serves, Federal Street tower in Pittsburgh was octagon, was it not?  And brick, too.  Admittedly, not all sides were equal length, and I think only the second story was that shape.
Pat Egan
Chicago

PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com> wrote:

From: Dave Vinci=20
To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service)


Hi Lew,
... I'm not sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them there =
were. Maybe someone on the list knows. I just liked them and since I'm =
modeling the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in...

Dave


Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-2099110781-1051300843=:30268-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: RE: [PRR] P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:47:01 -0400 Sorry to hear about your disaster. I think your cat took the simulation of "acid rain" a bit too far. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Octagonal Towers Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:30:55 -0400 Dave, and Gents, The weekend has finally started so, i can now do some research. I broke out my dads Northern Central Railway/Railroad collection since, the NCR used octagonal towers widely on the maryland and pennsylvania stretches of the railroad. The only keystone issue that has information regarding octagonal towers is vol. 6 no. 2. and this is only drawings. A good book with excelent photos of octagonal towers is Robert L. Gunnarson's "The Story of the Northern Central Railway" A greenberg publication. they show numerous photos of Northern central Octagonal Towers. There is also a picture of a variation that was used for the yard office at Marysville. The locations for octagonal towers that are in photos are: Marysville, Summit Grove, Cockeysville, York Haven, and another close up of Cockeysville. The latest picture is from the 1920's and the earliest dated caption is for 1898. Interestingly these are for the two pictures of cockeysville. The recently published book by Jeff Scherb, "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Contains a full set of plans for an Octagonal 'Signal Cabin' by the pennsylvania railroad circa 1895. and the plans are convieniently printed in HO scale. Hope that can be a help. If you want, i can make copies of the pictures if you will be attending the convention next week. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:56:45 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR Head end cars on MoPac Pass Trains From: Dominic Mazoch In the latest MPHS EAGLE, there is an article aout MoPac passenger trains KC-St. Louis. It shows consists for a weekend. On the head end are express refers, BX Boxcars, and baggage cars from the PRR. Good article for those inerested in PRR head end interchange with the MoPac. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:35:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Cat Damage From: "Stephen H. Prosser" John and all, It's hard to believe that cat urine could do all that damage; what a d..n shame. I am starting a new layout but it's gonna be in a locked room . . So our 4 cats can't get up or under the layout. Thanks for the warning. -- Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:08:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! --part1_1e1.7a666e7.2bdc6b63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I can say is "YUCK"! Mike Schock --part1_1e1.7a666e7.2bdc6b63_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All I can say is "YUCK"!


Mike Schock
 --part1_1e1.7a666e7.2bdc6b63_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] BLI's T1 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:26:02 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C30C3A.7032F4D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I heard a rumor that Broadway Ltd Imports has dropped the T1 from its = plans because there were too few orders placed. The J1 is instead of, = not in addition to, the T1. Also, I heard they are not getting orders = on PRR steam in general, so, they may do more diesels, such as a SW1. Can anybody confirm or, hopefully, squelch these rumors? Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C30C3A.7032F4D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I heard a rumor that Broadway Ltd Imports has = dropped the T1=20 from its plans because there were too few orders placed.   The = J1 is=20 instead of, not in addition to, the T1.  Also, I heard they are not = getting=20 orders on PRR steam in general, so, they may do more diesels, such as a=20 SW1.
 
Can anybody confirm or, hopefully, squelch these=20 rumors?
 
Fred Rea
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C30C3A.7032F4D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:45:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 09:26 PM, Fred Rea wrote: > I heard a rumor that Broadway Ltd Imports has dropped the T1 from its > plans because there were too few orders placed.   The J1 is instead > of, not in addition to, the T1.  Also, I heard they are not getting > orders on PRR steam in general, so, they may do more diesels, such as > a SW1. >   > Can anybody confirm or, hopefully, squelch these rumors? > Dealer mailings, as recent as two weeks ago, indicate otherwise. The T1 is still showing for this fall, with the J1 next spring. In fact, they did just recently ammend the specs to say it requires a 22" minimum radius. Obviously work is continuing to some point. I cannot comment on the numbers BLI is receiving overall, but Merchandise Service has booked several T1 orders, no J1's (though they were just announced and are a year out), but dozens of M1 orders. (GG-1's are selling pretty well too.) As for making more diesels, consider two points: 1) Diesels have fewer parts and easier lines to mold. Will cost less for BLI to design and manufacture; 2) Diesels are units that were "standard" and used by multiple roads. Steam units are pretty much unique to each road. Therefore, it only makes sense that BLI will do a lot of diesels. I think that was part of their original plan. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43B Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:57:42 -0400 Fellows, I have recently started my kits, and I must say that I am greatly pleased with this product. Fits my abilities perfectly and gives a very nice finished product. However I do have a few questions; 1) The box art indicates a door other than the one supplied. Which is correct the 7 panel supplied with the kit or the 3 panel with ridges pictured on the side of the box? (sorry guys but my knowledge of housecar doors is limited ;-) 2) What is the appropriate color for the trucks, black or freight car color? 3) The directions state that the tackboards can be located in the upper or lower position. Which is correct for this car circa 1952? No need to rush, as I will probably be a building for another week or two. Thanks in advance for the info. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X43B Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:41:08 -0500 Hi Walt--1) Use the seven panel door. 2) I think the story is that new cars--as yours would be in 1952--got black trucks; when the cars were repainted the trucks were painted freight car color, too. 3) Tack boards in the upper position. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Prusick" To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 10:57 PM Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43B > Fellows, > I have recently started my kits, and I must say that I am greatly pleased > with this product. Fits my abilities perfectly and gives a very nice > finished product. However I do have a few questions; > 1) The box art indicates a door other than the one supplied. Which is > correct the 7 panel supplied with the kit or the 3 panel with ridges > pictured on the side of the box? (sorry guys but my knowledge of housecar > doors is limited ;-) > 2) What is the appropriate color for the trucks, black or freight car color? > 3) The directions state that the tackboards can be located in the upper or > lower position. Which is correct for this car circa 1952? > No need to rush, as I will probably be a building for another week or two. > Thanks in advance for the info. > > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X43B Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:50:35 -0400 Walt Prusick asked: "1) The box art indicates a door other than the one supplied. Which is correct the 7 panel supplied with the kit or the 3 panel with ridges pictured on the side of the box? (sorry guys but my knowledge of housecar doors is limited ;-)" The 7 panel (Superior) door. See PRR Color Guide Vol 2 p 46. BTW, the corrugated door design is a Youngstown door. "2) What is the appropriate color for the trucks, black or freight car color?" If you have kit #1608 (CK), which I'm assuming you have because of your next question, paint the underframe black. I don't have a PSC builders photo of these cars, but a color AC&F builder's photo of PRR 602056, Class X43A on p 14 of Railmodel Jounal Freight Cars Vol 1 clearly shows a black underframe. "3) The directions state that the tackboards can be located in the upper or lower position. Which is correct for this car circa 1952?" Upper position for 1952. The tackboards migrated down during the late 1960s at the same time running boards fell out of use. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:46:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Of all the PRR layouts that are linked from my pages, or otherwise, we never hear of folks modeling the PRR on its western edge... Chicago, St. Louis, etc. Lots of folks doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona, Eastern Slope, etc. But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing this? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43B Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:52:15 -0400 Thanks guys, your responses answered my questions exactly, plus carried over to those X43C's which will follow shortly on the erection table. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:58:35 +0100 John, Not Good! At least all I had to contend with at Derby was the heat in the Derwent Suite! Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "John H. Wright" To: "Nigel Anderson" Cc: "RM Group" ; "LD SIG" ; "Al Mitchell" ; "Alan Pearson" ; "Allan Goodwillie" ; ; "Andrew Burnham" ; "Bill Newton" ; "Bob Jones" ; "Bob Smith" ; "Cameron Lees" ; "Carl Swanson" ; "Charles Dean" ; "Dave Alexander" ; "Chris Hobbs" ; "Dave Bywater" ; "Dennis Lippert" ; "Derrick Brashear" ; "Des Norman" ; "Ed McCamey" ; "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; "Gareth Bayer" ; "George Watson" ; "Greg Martin" ; "IAN TRIVETT" ; Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 1:13 PM Subject: [PRR] P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! > Dear all, > Gather round. I have a cautionary 'tail' I'd like to pass on in the hope it > might avert a similar disaster to some of you in the future. > What follows occurred over Easter weekend while I had my layout at the > Barrow in Furness Model Railway Exhibition. > > These days my P87 layout is packed away between exhibitions and resides > beneath the benchwork of the standard HO layout which is in the throes of a > major rebuild. Likewise, the locos and rolling stock which are packed into a > Curver box with layers of foam plastic padding. And after the Newcastle Show > last November this was the situation as usual and all was duly removed and > packed into the van for the drive over to Barrow. > Sometime on the Thursday evening while assembling the layout one of the crew > announced that there seemed to be ' ..... something stuck to the wheels of > the rolling stock'. It did not take long to work out what had happened .... > the stink was enough evidence even before I'd seen the disaster. > All the stock on the bottom layer, which included five out of my six P87 > locos had their wheels, couplers and indeed anything metal covered in what > looked like a concoction of rust, green slime and cinder toffee. Nightmare > ......! ! ! > Over the course of the last month or so one of my cats must have climbed > into the open topped box and piddled. The noxious mixture then must have > reacted with everything it could reach, including the foam. > You can see the results on a web page I've put up as a warning to modellers > who live with cats . . . . . at: > http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/p87/disaster.htm > > Be warned ..... it's not for the faint hearted. > > I'm considering whether to carry on exhibiting the layout any more but will > make a decision in a couple of weeks or so when I'm 'feline' a bit calmer. > Just 'paws' for thought and keep a lid on your stock boxes. > > PS. Please don't respond with cat-retribution stuff. It's not the animals' > fault, just one of those things. The pleasure of having pets far outweighs > what they get up to .... unless they have chewed up your winning lottery > ticket, of course :-) > > > Regards, > John H. Wright, > Washington, England > Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: > http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:24:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 --part1_64.2f69fda8.2bddb285_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am very interested in obtaining a BLI T1 model, but I am also very wary of placing any preproduction orders with anyone. I've been burned too many times to be willing to commit my hard-earned cash on spec. I'll certainly buy one as soon as they roll off the assembly line though... Chris B #1918 --part1_64.2f69fda8.2bddb285_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am very interested in obtaining a BLI T1 mode= l, but I am also very wary of placing any preproduction orders with a= nyone.  I've been burned too many times to be willing to commit my hard= -earned cash on spec.  I'll certainly buy one as soon as they roll off=20= the assembly line though...

Chris B  #1918 --part1_64.2f69fda8.2bddb285_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:28:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C30CE2.620A72E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry and the List: I am modeling the Pennsy Ft. Wayne Line from Ft. Wayne to Valparaiso, Indiana in HO scale. I will emphasis the mainline operations on "the Speedway" while have operational intelockings within other railroads at Columbia City (PRR), Warsaw (NYC), Plymouth (PRR & NKP), Hamlet (NYC), = Hanna (C&O) and Wanatah (Monon). The Plymouth interlocking plant will be fully operational as all crossing routes are a functioning part of my layout. Columbia City will be semi-operational plant. In addition, I am modeling the South Bend Branch from South Bend to Logansport via Plymouth. Interlockings at Lakeville (Wabash), Lapaz = (B&O), Hibbard (NKP) and Delong (Erie) are represented. I will have one principal yard. While it is supposed to be Ft. Wayne, it = is more of a generic yard. Depending on operations, it can be either = Chicago, Ft. Wayne, Crestline, Conway, Pitcairn or Logansport. The turntable and roundhouse will be based on the PRR facilities in Crestline, Ohio. I have one staging yard the is hidden from view. This 5-track yard will primarily be used for the Blue Ribbon fleet of passenger trains. Since = my layout does not include any terminal stations such as Chicago's Union Station, no passenger trains will terminate on my layout. Hence, the = staging yard will be used for passenger trains to "appear" and then "disappear" = on my layout as they go to and from Chicago. The eras that I am modeling are late 1940's to mid 1950's as well as 1962-1965. All of my benchwork is up now and I am in the process of laying roadbed = and track. I am using code 83 for the mainline to resemble 131-140 pound = rail while code 70 track I am using on sidings, yards, and branchlines to represent 100 and 130 pound rail. I should have the mainline up and operational by summers end. This will include the wiring and the powered turnouts on the mainline. The yard = and branchline will be addressed this fall. I have been meaning to post something on Jerry's web site along with a = plan view of the layout and photos. I should be doing that soon if it is just text for now. My druthers for this layout is to provide high speed mainline passenger = and freight service, low speed branchline service, and fully operational interlocking plants (no armstrong levels!.just toggle switches). I = believe that my layout accomplishes this satisfactorily. If you have any questions, please ask. I am now heading off to lay = roadbed from Hamlet to Wanatah! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana LONG LIVE LINES WEST!!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 1:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? > Of all the PRR layouts that are linked from my pages, or otherwise, we > never hear of folks modeling the PRR on its western edge... Chicago, > St. Louis, etc. > > Lots of folks doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona, > Eastern Slope, etc. > > But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing this? > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C30CE2.620A72E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
Jerry and the List:

I am modeling the Pennsy Ft. = Wayne=20 Line from Ft. Wayne to Valparaiso,
Indiana in HO scale. I will = emphasis the=20 mainline operations on "the
Speedway" while have operational = intelockings=20 within other railroads at
Columbia City (PRR), Warsaw (NYC), Plymouth = (PRR=20 & NKP), Hamlet (NYC), Hanna
(C&O) and Wanatah (Monon). The = Plymouth=20 interlocking plant will be fully
operational as all crossing routes = are a=20 functioning part of my layout.
Columbia City will be semi-operational = plant.

In addition, I am modeling the South Bend Branch from = South Bend=20 to
Logansport via Plymouth. Interlockings at Lakeville (Wabash), = Lapaz=20 (B&O),
Hibbard (NKP) and Delong (Erie) are represented.

I = will=20 have one principal yard. While it is supposed to be Ft. Wayne, it = is
more of=20 a generic yard. Depending on operations, it can be either = Chicago,
Ft. Wayne,=20 Crestline, Conway, Pitcairn or Logansport. The turntable = and
roundhouse will=20 be based on the PRR facilities in Crestline, Ohio.

I have one = staging=20 yard the is hidden from view. This 5-track yard will
primarily be = used for=20 the Blue Ribbon fleet of passenger trains. Since my
layout does not = include=20 any terminal stations such as Chicago's Union
Station, no passenger = trains=20 will terminate on my layout. Hence, the staging
yard will be used for = passenger trains to "appear" and then "disappear" on
my layout as = they go to=20 and from Chicago.

The eras that I am modeling are late 1940's to = mid=20 1950's as well as
1962-1965.

All of my benchwork is up now and = I am in=20 the process of laying roadbed and
track. I am using code 83 for the = mainline=20 to resemble 131-140 pound rail
while code 70 track I am using on = sidings,=20 yards, and branchlines to
represent 100 and 130 pound rail.

I = should=20 have the mainline up and operational by summers end. This = will
include the=20 wiring and the powered turnouts on the mainline. The yard = and
branchline will=20 be addressed this fall.

I have been meaning to post something on = Jerry's=20 web site along with a plan
view of the layout and photos. I should be = doing=20 that soon if it is just
text for now.

My druthers for this = layout is=20 to provide high speed mainline passenger and
freight service, low = speed=20 branchline service, and fully operational
interlocking plants (no = armstrong=20 levels!.just toggle switches). I believe
that my layout accomplishes = this=20 satisfactorily.

If you have any questions, please ask. I am now = heading=20 off to lay roadbed
from Hamlet to Wanatah!

Ted = Andrews
Carmel,=20 Indiana

LONG LIVE LINES WEST!!!!!!!!!!!!



----- = Original=20 Message -----
From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: = "PRR-talk"=20 <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent:=20 Sunday, April 27, 2003 1:46 PM
Subject: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The = PRR in=20 the Midwest?


> Of all the PRR layouts that are linked from = my=20 pages, or otherwise, we
> never hear of folks modeling the PRR on = its=20 western edge... Chicago,
> St. Louis, etc.
>
> Lots of = folks=20 doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona,
> Eastern = Slope,=20 etc.
>
> But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing=20 this?
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C30CE2.620A72E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:06:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 06:24 PM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > I am very interested in obtaining a BLI T1 model, but I am also very > wary of placing any preproduction orders with anyone.  I've been > burned too many times to be willing to commit my hard-earned cash on > spec.  I'll certainly buy one as soon as they roll off the assembly > line though... > Unfortunately, you'll probably be out of luck. The NYC J1e Hudsons were sold out before they arrived. (Although they did a second paint scheme later.) The cutoff for guaranteed delivery on GG-1's is April 30th. If you snooze you lose. But I understand where you're coming from. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:34:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Keystone Crossings Milestone Approaches! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Sometime over the next week or ten days, Keystone Crossings will serve its ONE MILLIONTH PAGE! * If you happen to be the person who gets exactly the one millionth page (note the counter at the bottom of the page), do a screen dump or otherwise capture the page to disk, showing the counter. Note the date and time. Then contact me. Once I verify (from the logs) the page you saved was indeed served at the date and time noted, there will be something in it for you! Thank you for making my site such a success over the years! *This is a count of actual pages served, not "hits". Webmasters will know that a "hit" is a single element of a web page. The page is a hit and each graphic on it are a hit. Thus, a page with five graphics would generate a total of six hits. The aforementioned MILLION mark is pages served, not hits. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:17:41 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] River Raisin S Scale J-1 Hi All, I JUST got my River Raisin S Scale J-1 back from my painter. I had to share it with everyone. I am very happy with the results. I have another tender that still has to be completed. Charlie finished this one first because it is the one that I took the antennas off. This also is a new level for me, as it is DCC and sound equipped. I have not run it yet. I will be bringing it to the PRR Convention this week, so you can have a first hand look if you are attending. Enjoy! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_J1_1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_J1_2.jpg Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:40:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Octagonal SOUTH Tower --part1_24.3cf4aaf5.2bdde0a9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/03 1:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: [PRR] Octagonal Towers > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:30:55 -0400 > > Dave, and Gents, > The weekend has finally started so, i can now do some > research. I broke out my dads Northern Central > Railway/Railroad collection since, the NCR used octagonal > towers widely on the maryland and pennsylvania stretches > of the railroad. The only keystone issue that has > information regarding octagonal towers is vol. 6 no. 2. > and this is only drawings. A good book with excelent > photos of octagonal towers is Robert L. Gunnarson's "The > Story of the Northern Central Railway" A greenberg > publication. they show numerous photos of Northern central > Octagonal Towers. There is also a picture of a variation > that was used for the yard office at Marysville. The > locations for octagonal towers that are in photos are: > Marysville, Summit Grove, Cockeysville, York Haven, and > another close up of Cockeysville. The latest picture is > from the 1920's and the earliest dated caption is for > 1898. Interestingly these are for the two pictures of > cockeysville. > The recently published book by Jeff Scherb, > "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Contains a full set of > plans for an Octagonal 'Signal Cabin' by the pennsylvania > railroad circa 1895. and the plans are convieniently > printed in HO scale. > Hope that can be a help. If you want, i can make copies of > the pictures if you will be attending the convention next > week. Yours in railroading, > John > Don't know if anyone remembers the photo of South Tower, at the south (Louisville KY) end of the Ohio River Bridge. It establishes that South is a similar octagonal tower (both upper and lower floors). Although dating the photo is tough (the bridge shown stood from 1870 to 1917), the 3 three-way stub switches and the "U.T.L." tank cars visible probably place it in the 1880's. Is there any truth to the rumor that these structures came apart one story at a time so they could be repositioned? PS This print was found in Jack Fravert's collection after his death. I hope to attribute it eventually to a negative in a local library or archive. It would also be nice to locate a picture of NORTH tower, across the river on an ancient alignment of a PRR predecessor. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_24.3cf4aaf5.2bdde0a9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/26/03 1:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: [PRR] Octagonal Towers=
From: "John Frantz" <johnf2384@suscom.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:30:55 -0400

Dave, and Gents,
The weekend has finally started so, i can now do some
research. I broke out my dads Northern Central
Railway/Railroad collection since, the NCR used octagonal
towers widely on the maryland and pennsylvania stretches
of the railroad. The only keystone issue that has
information regarding octagonal towers is vol. 6 no. 2.
and this is only drawings. A good book with excelent
photos of octagonal towers is Robert L. Gunnarson's "The
Story of the Northern Central Railway" A greenberg
publication. they show numerous photos of Northern central
Octagonal Towers. There is also a picture of a variation
that was used for the yard office at Marysville. The
locations for octagonal towers that are in photos are:
Marysville, Summit Grove, Cockeysville, York Haven, and
another close up of Cockeysville. The latest picture is
from the 1920's and the earliest dated caption is for
1898. Interestingly these are for the two pictures of
cockeysville.
      The recently published book by Jeff Scherb, <= BR> "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Contains a full set of
plans for an Octagonal 'Signal Cabin' by the pennsylvania
railroad circa 1895. and the plans are convieniently
printed in HO scale.
Hope that can be a help. If you want, i can make copies of
the pictures if you will be attending the convention next
week. Yours in railroading,
John


Don't know if anyone remembers the photo of South Tower, at the south (Louis= ville KY) end of the Ohio River Bridge.  It establishes that South is a= similar octagonal tower (both upper and lower floors).  Although datin= g the photo is tough (the bridge shown stood from 1870 to 1917), the 3 three= -way stub switches and the "U.T.L." tank cars visible probably place it in t= he 1880's.

Is there any truth to the rumor that these structures came apart one story a= t a time so they could be repositioned?

PS This print was found in Jack Fravert's collection after his death. =20= I hope to attribute it eventually to a negative in a local library or archiv= e.  It would also be nice to locate a picture of NORTH tower, across th= e river on an ancient alignment of a PRR predecessor.
 
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_24.3cf4aaf5.2bdde0a9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:41:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tower economics? --part1_142.102daca8.2bdde0ad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/03 1:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > From: Dave Vinci=20 > To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 12:49 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service) > > > Hi Lew, > ... I'm not sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them > there = > were. Maybe someone on the list knows. I just liked them and since I'm = > modeling the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in... > > > Dave > > > For some time now, I've been under the assumption that the octagonals might have been replaced by rectangular buildings when Saxbe & Farmer armstrong interlockings were applied. A Lines West book circa 1905 shows dimensions and specs for various-size of these "new" plants, so there's at least some evidence that many octagonals were replaced well before 1920. Woudn't a survivor be pushing 50 years of age by that time? OTOH, any tower that survived until business started to fall off (1928?) was probably good until 1942. It might get closed as an economy move, but would be left in place. Right? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_142.102daca8.2bdde0ad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/26/03 1:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


From: Dave Vinci=3D20
To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=3D20
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scratch Buildin (was Engine Service)


Hi Lew,
... I'm not sure when the octagonal towers disappeared or how many of them t= here =3D
were. Maybe someone on the list knows. I just liked them and since I'm =3D modeling the 1920s or thereabouts, I thought they just might fit in...


Dave




For some time now, I've been under the assumption that the octagonals might=20= have been replaced by rectangular buildings when Saxbe & Farmer armstron= g interlockings were applied.  A Lines West book circa 1905 shows dimen= sions and specs for various-size of these "new" plants, so there's at least=20= some evidence that many octagonals were replaced well before 1920.  Wou= dn't a survivor be pushing 50 years of age by that time?

OTOH, any tower that survived until business started to fall off (1928?) was= probably good until 1942.  It might get closed as an economy move, but= would be left in place.  Right?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_142.102daca8.2bdde0ad_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:41:13 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Hi Tom -- I was just up in Cincinnati In a message dated 4/24/03 9:36:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Tom V. returns!!!! > From: "Tom Vondruska" > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:22 -0700 (PDT) > > --0-2112942400-1051228942=:40978 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Dear beloved brothers of the Keystone, I have returned from the wilderness. > I have survived!!!!! The divorce was final on income tax day, April 15, > 2003, ending the worst four years of my life. I anticipate reactivating my > PRRT&HS membership as soon as I am able, financially. Unfortunately, > despite some promising research, they still haven't found a cure for > Parkinson's (unless Brother Bej has some good news). The good news is that > I'm doing much better on my current suite of meds. I've returned to the > mobility level I was at in April 2000 when ya'll met me at the Lines West > Fans Fest in Xenia, Ohio. I'm anticipating organizing another. One plus > side of the September 2000 F4 twiater that destoryed the Greene County > Fairgrounds in Xenia is that we have a nuch inproved exhibition faciltiy. > Tom V. > Tom, Welcome back. Glad to hear you're doing better again. You may be cheered to know that quite a number of PRR fans/modelers were in evidence at the NMRA regional just concluded in Cincinnati, and they are looking forward to the PRRT&HS annual meeting just a year away, also in Cincinnati. We stayed in the hotel contracted for next year's annual meeting, and the hotel's staff did a great job of supporting our meeting. During the NMRA convention, I toured Pennsy layouts in O (three rail scale), HO, and N. The memory of the PRR is alive and well in Cincinnati! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:41:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Hi Tom -- I was just up in Cincinnati --part1_f5.2c5b13d9.2bdde0b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/24/03 9:36:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Tom V. returns!!!! > From: "Tom Vondruska" > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:22 -0700 (PDT) > > --0-2112942400-1051228942=:40978 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Dear beloved brothers of the Keystone, I have returned from the wilderness. > I have survived!!!!! The divorce was final on income tax day, April 15, > 2003, ending the worst four years of my life. I anticipate reactivating my > PRRT&HS membership as soon as I am able, financially. Unfortunately, > despite some promising research, they still haven't found a cure for > Parkinson's (unless Brother Bej has some good news). The good news is that > I'm doing much better on my current suite of meds. I've returned to the > mobility level I was at in April 2000 when ya'll met me at the Lines West > Fans Fest in Xenia, Ohio. I'm anticipating organizing another. One plus > side of the September 2000 F4 twiater that destoryed the Greene County > Fairgrounds in Xenia is that we have a nuch inproved exhibition faciltiy. > Tom V. > Tom, Welcome back. Glad to hear you're doing better again. You may be cheered to know that quite a number of PRR fans/modelers were in evidence at the NMRA regional just concluded in Cincinnati, and they are looking forward to the PRRT&HS annual meeting just a year away, also in Cincinnati. We stayed in the hotel contracted for next year's annual meeting, and the hotel's staff did a great job of supporting our meeting. During the NMRA convention, I toured Pennsy layouts in O (three rail scale), HO, and N. The memory of the PRR is alive and well in Cincinnati! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_f5.2c5b13d9.2bdde0b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/24/03 9= :36:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Tom V. returns!!!!
From: "Tom Vondruska" <tvondruska@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:22 -0700 (PDT)

--0-2112942400-1051228942=3D:40978
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

Dear beloved brothers of the Keystone, I have returned from the wilderness.=20= I have survived!!!!!   The divorce was final on income tax day, Ap= ril 15, 2003, ending the worst four years of my life. I anticipate reactivat= ing my PRRT&HS membership as soon as I am able, financially. Unfortunate= ly, despite some promising research, they still haven't found a cure for Par= kinson's (unless Brother Bej has some good news). The good news is that I'm=20= doing much better on my current suite of meds. I've returned to the mobility= level I was at in April 2000 when ya'll met me at the Lines West Fans Fest=20= in Xenia, Ohio. I'm anticipating organizing another. One plus side of the Se= ptember 2000 F4 twiater that destoryed the Greene County Fairgrounds in Xeni= a is that we have a nuch inproved exhibition faciltiy. Tom V.


Tom,

Welcome back.  Glad to hear you're doing better again.  You may be= cheered to know that quite a number of PRR fans/modelers were in evidence a= t the NMRA regional just concluded in Cincinnati, and they are looking forwa= rd to the PRRT&HS annual meeting just a year away, also in Cincinnati.
We stayed in the hotel contracted for next year's annual meeting, and the ho= tel's staff did a great job of supporting our meeting.

During the NMRA convention, I toured Pennsy layouts in O (three rail scale),= HO, and N.   The memory of the PRR is alive and well in Cincinnat= i!

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_f5.2c5b13d9.2bdde0b9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:34:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lines West modeling? --part1_123.21134ac2.2bde6bbe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/03 9:49:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Of all the PRR layouts that are linked from my pages, or otherwise, we > never hear of folks modeling the PRR on its western edge... Chicago, > St. Louis, etc. > > Lots of folks doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona, > Eastern Slope, etc. > > But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing this? My last layout modeled lines east of Dayton. Now that we've moved, the new pike is projected to focus on Columbus and west to Xenia. I know two modelers doing the Monongahela Division, and one doing the Panhandle Div. at Mingo Jct. But prototypes farther west between Cadiz Jct and St. Louis seem to be scarce. Visited the beautiful Mingo Jct layout (Curt Larue) in Cincinnati this weekend. Of the other PRR-oriented layouts in that area that I know, two have Horseshoe Curves (in O and N), one does the Monongahela, and one is near Philadelphia around West Chester. However, there are additional PRR modelers around Cincy who may be working on other things. Wonder what else the PRR modelers in Indianapolis might be doing? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_123.21134ac2.2bde6bbe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/27/03 9:49:53 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Of all the PRR layouts that are= linked from my pages, or otherwise, we
never hear of folks modeling the PRR on its western edge... Chicago,
St. Louis, etc.

Lots of folks doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona,
Eastern Slope, etc.

But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing this?


My last layout modeled lines east of Dayton.  Now that we've moved, the= new pike is projected to focus on Columbus and west to Xenia.

I know two modelers doing the Monongahela Division, and one doing the Panhan= dle Div. at Mingo Jct.  But prototypes farther west between Cadiz Jct a= nd St. Louis seem to be scarce.

Visited the beautiful Mingo Jct layout (Curt Larue) in Cincinnati this weeke= nd.  Of the other PRR-oriented layouts in that area that I know, two ha= ve Horseshoe Curves (in O and N), one does the Monongahela, and one is near=20= Philadelphia around West Chester.  However, there are additional PRR mo= delers around Cincy who may be working on other things.

Wonder what else the PRR modelers in Indianapolis might be doing?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_123.21134ac2.2bde6bbe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:43:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West modeling? From: Jerry Britton On 4/28/03 7:34 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > Visited the beautiful Mingo Jct layout (Curt Larue) in Cincinnati this > weekend. Of the other PRR-oriented layouts in that area that I know, two have > Horseshoe Curves (in O and N), one does the Monongahela, and one is near > Philadelphia around West Chester. However, there are additional PRR modelers > around Cincy who may be working on other things. > Wasn't Allen McClelland's new V&O layout supposed to be on that tour? Was it? Did you see it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:00:15 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] X-23 Housecar at Parksley, Va. --------------FBB23F3E12C0E0AD310A9F6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Further info on the tool car mentioned earlier, with some comments for those who don't know Delmarva.... From: edmund burbage (an old PRR man)To: ; James McDanielSent: Friday, April 25, 2003 5:52 AMSubject: Info on Wood sheathed Boxcar at Parksley, Va. When Tony Hannold took over operation of the [Delmarva Secondary] line from Pocomoke, MD to Cape Charles, Va [in the late 70s] and operated it as the Virginia and Maryland RR, he laid claim to the Wood Box Car at Cape Charles, Va. He got mad or what ever with the bunch who owned the tracks [the two county governments!] and went to form his own company, the Maryland and Delaware RR, headquartered at Hurlock, MD and that’s when I [Lee B.] worked for him on the Seaford to Cambridge line. [since abandoned...] Hannold moved the car from Cape Charles, Va. to Federalsburg, MD. Then he moved to Arkansas and formed the Arkansas and Missouri RR [leaving the car behind.] The new owners of the M&D donated the car to The [Eastern Shore Railway] Museum at Parksley. The Museum paid to have it loaded on a flat bed truck and brought to Parksley, Va where it was set up for display. The Museum at Parksley, Va. owns the car now. Lee Burbage Jim McDaniel, Reporting from Delmarva as details become available --------------FBB23F3E12C0E0AD310A9F6B Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Further info on the tool car mentioned earlier, with some comments for those who don't know Delmarva....
 
 
From: edmund burbage  (an old PRR man)To: ; James McDanielSent: Friday, April 25, 2003 5:52 AMSubject: Info on Wood sheathed Boxcar at Parksley, Va.
 
When Tony Hannold took over operation of the [Delmarva Secondary] line from Pocomoke, MD to Cape Charles, Va [in the late 70s] and operated it as the Virginia and Maryland RR,  he laid claim to the Wood Box Car at Cape Charles, Va. He got mad or what ever with the bunch who owned the tracks [the two county governments!] and went to form his own company, the Maryland and Delaware RR, headquartered at Hurlock, MD and that’s when I [Lee B.] worked for him on the Seaford to Cambridge line. [since abandoned...] Hannold moved the car from Cape Charles, Va. to Federalsburg, MD.  Then  he moved to Arkansas and formed the Arkansas and Missouri RR [leaving the car behind.] 
The new owners of the M&D donated the car to  The [Eastern Shore Railway] Museum at Parksley. The Museum paid to have it loaded on a flat bed truck and brought to Parksley, Va where it was set up for display. The  Museum at Parksley, Va. owns the car now. Lee Burbage
 

Jim McDaniel,  Reporting from Delmarva as details become available

--------------FBB23F3E12C0E0AD310A9F6B-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:02:12 -0700 I'm modeling the PRR's line into Peoria, including their trackage rights on the NKP and the interchange with the TP&W, circa 1950. That midwestern enough for ya? Ray Breyer Rockford, IL -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry@Pennsy Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:46 AM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? Of all the PRR layouts that are linked from my pages, or otherwise, we never hear of folks modeling the PRR on its western edge... Chicago, St. Louis, etc. Lots of folks doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona, Eastern Slope, etc. But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing this? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:45:47 +0000 This is what gripes me the most about the hobby. I announce I am going to build a ZB922 and it will be the best one ever. You are supposed to fund my project by ponying up your money with no guarantee of when it will be ready or receive interest on your money so that I can have the funds to make the model and money from you. Then if I find someting I think will sell better I'll jump ship to it and you can just wait. Oops, there wasn't enough interest so it has been pushed back. Isn't that called bait and switch and illegal by federal law? I may miss on a few I would like to have but as Clara would say, "show me the beef!". > On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 06:24 PM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > > > I am very interested in obtaining a BLI T1 model, but I am also very > > wary of placing any preproduction orders with anyone.  I've been > > burned too many times to be willing to commit my hard-earned cash on > > spec.  I'll certainly buy one as soon as they roll off the assembly > > line though... > > > Unfortunately, you'll probably be out of luck. > > The NYC J1e Hudsons were sold out before they arrived. (Although they > did a second paint scheme later.) > > The cutoff for guaranteed delivery on GG-1's is April 30th. > > If you snooze you lose. But I understand where you're coming from. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > This is what gripes me the most about the hobby. I announce I am going to > build a ZB922 and it will be the best one ever. You are supposed to fund my > project by ponying up your money with no guarantee of when it will be ready or > receive interest on your money so that I can have the funds to make the model > and money from you. Then if I find someting I think will sell better I'll jump > ship to it and you can just wait. Oops, there wasn't enough interest so it has > been pushed back. Isn't that called bait and switch and illegal by federal > law? I may miss on a few I would like to have but as Clara would say, "show me > the beef!". That was "where's the beef". Typically unless it's brass all you make up front is the promise to pay, your money isn't gone until it's time for delivery. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Norm, List I am no business industry guru, but on supposedly limited run stuff, a reservation fee may be required, at least for the Brass items of todays market. . Of all the BLI items that have been released and or announced, I have yet to have any money change hands until the loco was/is actually released. I purchased the J1e from Jerry, no upfront money needed. (not sure if Jerry had to send in advance monies or not) If the item wasn't delivered, I was out no money. So what is the harm in reserving? Unless that is, you are strickly dealing with the importer themselves? I do not know what the policy is with BLI. I never tried to order/reserve direct from them (do they require up front money?) as I know the items can be had at a much more reasonable price elsewhere via Jerry, eBay, Train Shows etc. However, if you do not deal directly with an importer, I will advise this. Once an item is announced, act fast thru your favorite dealer! The sooner you act, the higher you are on the list. I may or may not have been Jerry's first customer for the J1e (but I think I was). For the PRR J1, even before it was public knowledge of this proposed release, I made darn sure I first or second or third to be on a list for reservations for this loco. Again no money down needed. If the loco is a go, I pay when it arrives. If not, well, I will go back and admire my Key J1's.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:38:51 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] All: BLI requires dealers and direct purchasers to pre-pay for the order. The danger to a dealer who does not require a reservation fee (down payment) is he/she may possibly get "stuck" with the item. I had this happen to me on NYC block lettering J1e. Fortunately, I was able to sell it quickly. The amount of money required to be put at risk by the dealer can be substantial for a small dealer. For example, I have nearly $2000.00 (my cost) in N&W A's on order with not a penny in deposit. since I operate at a very small mark-up, if 2 or 3 of those are canceled, my cash flow will take a big hit. Also, BLI now requires a minimum order of 2 of any model. I now require a non-refundable 25% deposit unless I personally know the purchaser. Yes, one ruined it for all. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:03:15 +0000 Maybe there was a tone that was read into what I was saying but I am not mad or upset. I just don't understand why we jump through this "limited availability" hoop all the time. Want a Bowser? order one at any time or Athearn or MDC or several others. Want a Kato, P2K, Stewart or BLI. Play the game their way. Do they really come out better by not having the ability to allow dealers to stock items and make onging sales? If the demand is 10,000 engines of a model and they can talk 7500 into playing the game and stop production at that point do they win and we lose? All the costs for additional volumes are variable since all the die work and engineering is done. Translate - they are the ones sold where the profit is maximized. What are they gaining by operating this way? I don't know the answers. I just don't like my purchases to be emotional decisions. What if Dell or HP said we are only going to make 5000 computers? There is something going on here that flies in the face of traditional marketing and sales prinicples. I don't understand it. > Offline: > > Norm, I am not sure who you should be mad at. I have 4 BLI locos on order > with no deposit, but I work at a hobby shop. For 90% of our regular > customers, we will place an order with our distributor (who requires no > deposit) with no down payment required. Unfortunately, believe me there are > more deadbeat customers than deadbeat manufacturers, so guys like Jerry want > a deposit on everyone. For some customers we require the same. Before I > arrived, we got burned on a $1200 loco once because a guy triple ordered and > tried to haggle between shops. He bought for $50 savings elsewhere. > > For the 10% of the risky customers (including, sad to say, some of my own > club members), we ask for a deposit, which we may refund up to manufacturer > ship date if we catch it in time. There are one or two customers from whom > we won't accept an advance order even with a deposit. > > And by the way, don't get your blood pressure up too early :-). So far it is > an internet rumor that the T1 is cancelled. Possibly true, but remember, the > scuttlebutt on the Henny Penny list (PRR-talk) was that BLI wouldn't ship the > first loco or any, or even survive to this date. Since I have put off > building my Bowser T1 with sound, I will be as disappointed as others if the > BLI model doesn't come through. I ordered two M1s, though I am not sure I > will use both that much. Without a home layout, I couldn't see ordering two > T1s, though in another life (before retirement) I would have done so. > > I do not know if BLI requires a deposit from their large distributors. I > suspect they couldn't get away with it. With dealers it may be another > story: since we can get the locos from two sources we don't bother with a > dealership. > > See you in July, hopefully. > > Regards, > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:07:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] From: Jerry Britton On 4/28/03 2:04 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > I am no business industry guru, but on supposedly limited run stuff, > a reservation fee may be required, at least for the Brass items of > todays market. . Of all the BLI items that have been released and or > announced, I have yet to have any money change hands until the loco > was/is actually released. I purchased the J1e from Jerry, no upfront > money needed. (not sure if Jerry had to send in advance monies or not) I appreciated Gary's order, but I have to remind Gary that he was charged $25 up front. Merchandise Service charges a $25 down payment on all brass and "some" plastic reservations. No, MS does not have to prepay the manufacturer for reservations. Hate to say it, but this down payment is required because some people -- at MS and other dealers I have talked with -- place orders with multiple dealers in order to "guarantee" they will get one unit of a limited run product. If the manufacturer cancels the product, the down payment is immediately returned. If the customer cancels the order, the down payment is forfeit. While some may take offense to this practice, I based it on what many other dealers were doing. It's been MS' practice for several years now and without complaint. > If the item wasn't delivered, I was out no money. So what is the harm in > reserving? Unless that is, you are strickly dealing with the importer > themselves? I do not know what the policy is with BLI. I never tried to > order/reserve direct from them (do they require up front money?) as I > know the items can be had at a much more reasonable price elsewhere via > Jerry, eBay, Train Shows etc. However, if you do not deal directly with > an importer, I will advise this. Once an item is announced, act fast > thru your favorite dealer! The sooner you act, the higher you are on the > list. That is very true. Get high on the list. Importers only plan a slight overrun. Sometimes orders continue to come in until the production is done and it is fully reserved before delivery. Then add the problem of defects which creates a "short run". This is usually minimal. Another point -- and not intending to promote MS, it's just for background info -- when BLI opened its doors, MS arranged direct terms. Since then BLI has made arrangements to sell through a few distributors. Dealing with a distributor offers the advantage of being able to combine BLI orders with other manufacturer's items...which means less paperwork. MS opted to continue to deal direct with BLI to better control the first-in, first-out queue of models. By dealing direct there's no chance of an unscrupulous distributor stealing dealer A's unit for dealer B who ordered too late. On the down side, BLI -- as is the case with most brass importers -- requires the dealer to pay in full at the time the product is ready to ship. This means the dealer outlays for the product about 3-4 weeks before they receive the product. MS -- and some other dealers -- have "pro forma" payment policies whereby the customer is charged for the balance at this time as well. Perhaps not the best circumstance, but it does guarantee availability. By the way, April 30th is the final guaranteed delivery date for BLI GG-1's. That doesn't mean you won't get the one you want later. It does mean that if you order (and your dealer orders) by April 30th, BLI is guaranteeing that you will get the road number you ordered. > I may or may not have been Jerry's first customer for the J1e > (but I think I was). For the PRR J1, even before it was public > knowledge of this proposed release, I made darn sure I first or second > or third to be on a list for reservations for this loco. Again no money > down needed. If the loco is a go, I pay when it arrives. If not, well, I > will go back and admire my Key J1's.....Gary > I believe you were the first on the J1e Hudson's, Gary. Thanks for your business! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:13:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] From: Jerry Britton On 4/28/03 2:38 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > BLI requires dealers and direct purchasers to pre-pay for the order. The > danger to a dealer who does not require a reservation fee (down payment) is > he/she may possibly get "stuck" with the item. I had this happen to me on NYC > block lettering J1e. Fortunately, I was able to sell it quickly. The amount > of money required to be put at risk by the dealer can be substantial for a > small dealer. For example, I have nearly $2000.00 (my cost) in N&W A's on > order with not a penny in deposit. since I operate at a very small mark-up, > if 2 or 3 of those are canceled, my cash flow will take a big hit. Also, BLI > now requires a minimum order of 2 of any model. I now require a > non-refundable 25% deposit unless I personally know the purchaser. Yes, one > ruined it for all. > "Yes, one ruined it for all." Been there, done that! Similar to what Rich wrote, I specialize in PRR, as you probably all know. I typically do not require down payments on mainstream PRR locos from Atlas, Stewart, Life Like, etc. But on other roadnames, yes. If the customer doesn't consummate the purchase on a product I cannot move easily, the down payment -- though minimal -- helps offset my cost just enough that I can usually dump the product quicker. I had a set of Reading FA/FB units that took over three years to move! One last comment on BLI: Their discount to dealers is not nearly as great as what other manufacturers typically offer. So if you do the math and see that the discount percentage on BLI is not as great as what you see on Atlas, etc., that's why. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Re: P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:45:59 -0400 Urine, although biologically sterile, is very high in ammonium, nitrites and nitrates (remember, nitrates in the drinking water closed the red caboose inn at Strasburg) as well as several other nutrient chemicals. It can also have a low pH and of course, lots of water. Put that in a closed environment and allow bacteria to begin digesting the carbon material in the train layout in juxtaposition with all that nitrogen (C&N makes for complete amino acids for bacteria) and you have some really wild "dining" taking place and lots of stuff disintegrating. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Webb Keith" To: "'Phil Baggley'" ; "John H. Wright" Cc: "RM Group" ; "LD SIG" ; "Al Mitchell" ; "Alan Pearson" ; "Allan Goodwillie" ; ; "Andrew Burnham" ; "Bill Newton" ; "Bob Jones" ; "Bob Smith" ; "Cameron Lees" ; "Carl Swanson" ; "Charles Dean" ; "Dave Alexander" ; "Chris Hobbs" ; "Dave Bywater" ; "Dennis Lippert" ; "Derrick Brashear" ; "Des Norman" ; "Ed McCamey" ; "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; "Gareth Bayer" ; "George Watson" ; "Greg Martin" ; "IAN TRIVETT" ; "Ian Edwards" ; "Jim Six" ; "Jim Summers" ; "Joe Jack" ; "Joe Watts" ; "John Pearson" ; "Ken Kobus" ; "Lew Matt" ; "Mario Mateo" ; "Martin Boyask" ; "Martin Nield" ; "Mick Simpson" ; "Mike Cook" ; "Mike Fishwick" ; "Mike Scott" ; ; "Paul Doggett" ; "Paul Dolkos" ; "Paul Smith" ; "PROTO 87 List" ; "PRR Talk" ; "Simon Wall" ; "Tom Hayden" ; "Walter Lishman" ; "Webb Keith" ; "Tom Winlow" Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 6:33 AM Subject: RE: P87 wiped out in UK ..... by cats! > The question I ask is: > > What is he feeding the cat on? Hydrochloric acid and iron. > > Do you think he should change roads from Pennsy to C P, or even Chessie, at > least his box cars would then have the right symbol on them! > > Best Regards > Keith > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:10:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 --part1_147.104a1359.2bdef2ce_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holy Moly!! This debate was far more than I anticipated. Okay, so I've heard that reservations have been placed with Jerry and with Trainworld for BLI products -- both were made with full confidence in a successful outcome. So are reservations currently being taken for the T1? If so is the consensus to make a reservation with a small distributor or a large one? Chris B #1918 --part1_147.104a1359.2bdef2ce_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Holy Moly!!  This debate was far more than I anti= cipated. 

Okay, so I've heard that reservations have been placed with Jerry and with T= rainworld for BLI products -- both were made with full confidence in a succe= ssful outcome.  So are reservations currently being taken for the T1?&n= bsp; If so is the consensus to make a reservation with a small distributor o= r a large one?

Chris B  #1918 --part1_147.104a1359.2bdef2ce_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI's T1 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:34:55 -0700 Um Norm, who you foolin'? Looks to me like Bowser is the ONLY engine manufacturer left that always has stuff in stock (and they really don't count, cause all they sell is undec kits). Athearn has stated that they are now a limited run batch producer. MDC hasn't, but it's 50/50 if their product is in stock at any given time. Checking the Walthers website (not the best distributor, maybe, but certainly the 500 pound gorilla), Athearn has more items out of stock than in. Looking at the Athearn production schedule, they're NOT running more roadnames and engine types than they ARE running. Heck, Athearn has announced that they're discontinuing all dummy units, probably to reduce their inventorying system. Limited run locomotives are the name of the game now, and have been for the past 10-15 years. NOTHING is going to change that, EVER, so everyone might as well stop whining about it. Just as basically every "real" manufacturer on the planet has gone to Just In Time delivery and stocking to reduce overhead, slash costs, and cut inventorying costs, so too small model manufacturers have been moving towards batch production, so their money goes to where it's supposed to - their owner's pockets (it's called capitalism, remember?). Model RR manufacturers are not a social welfare program. So if you want any given engine in this day and age, you've got three options. Buy it when it comes out, as soon as it comes out, at full price. Haunt Ebay hoping for elusive discounts on your favorite road. Learn to paint. Respectfully, Ray Breyer PS: Dell and HP make more computers to order than otherwise, by a gigantic margin (like 1000 to 1). What you see sold at the local Best Buy is only a drop in their corporate buckets. I know; I work in the industry. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:03 PM To: PRR-Talk; Bobspf@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 Maybe there was a tone that was read into what I was saying but I am not mad or upset. I just don't understand why we jump through this "limited availability" hoop all the time. Want a Bowser? order one at any time or Athearn or MDC or several others. Want a Kato, P2K, Stewart or BLI. Play the game their way. Do they really come out better by not having the ability to allow dealers to stock items and make onging sales? If the demand is 10,000 engines of a model and they can talk 7500 into playing the game and stop production at that point do they win and we lose? All the costs for additional volumes are variable since all the die work and engineering is done. Translate - they are the ones sold where the profit is maximized. What are they gaining by operating this way? I don't know the answers. I just don't like my purchases to be emotional decisions. What if Dell or HP said we are only going to make 5000 computers? There is something going on here that flies in the face of traditional marketing and sales prinicples. I don't understand it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:06:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3134401618_18346428 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/28/03 5:10 PM, "Chrisandbelton2@aol.com" wrote: > Holy Moly!! This debate was far more than I anticipated. >=20 > Okay, so I've heard that reservations have been placed with Jerry and wit= h > Trainworld for BLI products -- both were made with full confidence in a > successful outcome. So are reservations currently being taken for the T1= ? If > so is the consensus to make a reservation with a small distributor or a l= arge > one? >=20 >=20 Yes, Merchandise Service is continuing to take reservations on the T1. Merchandise Service also has an official query in to Broadway Limited Imports about this =B3rumor=B2, asking for a confirm/deny in light of the PRRT&HS convention being just three days away. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3134401618_18346428 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] BLI's  T1 On 4/28/03 5:10 PM, "Chrisandbelton2@aol.com"= ; <Chrisandbelton2@aol.com> wrote:

Holy Moly!!  This= debate was far more than I anticipated.  

Okay, so I've heard that reservations have been placed with Jerry and with = Trainworld for BLI products -- both were made with full confidence in a succ= essful outcome.  So are reservations currently being taken for the T1? =  If so is the consensus to make a reservation with a small distributor = or a large one?


Yes, Merchandise Service is continuing t= o take reservations on the T1.

Merchandise Service also has an official query in to Broadway Limited Impor= ts about this “rumor”, asking for a confirm/deny in light of the= PRRT&HS convention being just three days away.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3134401618_18346428-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] GG1 Question Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:45:00 -0400

I am trying to decide which GG1 to order of the upcoming BLI release.  I want one in the DGLE five strip, here are the one available:
Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4905
Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering, #4862
Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4901
When were each of these scheme used? And are they all accurate for the drop coupler pilot?
Thanks,
Eric
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:22:05 -0400 Hello Ray and List, Do you have any pics for us to look at? I like to see what other PRR modelers are doing. Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Breyer" To: "Jerry@Pennsy" ; Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:02 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? > I'm modeling the PRR's line into Peoria, including their trackage rights on > the NKP and the interchange with the TP&W, circa 1950. That midwestern > enough for ya? > > Ray Breyer > Rockford, IL > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > Jerry@Pennsy > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:46 AM > To: PRR-talk > Subject: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? > > > Of all the PRR layouts that are linked from my pages, or otherwise, we > never hear of folks modeling the PRR on its western edge... Chicago, > St. Louis, etc. > > Lots of folks doing Philly, Harrisburg, Middle Division, Altoona, > Eastern Slope, etc. > > But nobody in the mid-west. Anyone out there doing this? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:45:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Does Nobody Model The PRR in the Midwest? From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 09:22 PM, wrote: > Hello Ray and List, Do you have any pics for us to look at? I like to > see > what other PRR modelers are doing. Ken. > For those not familiar, I have a substantial listing of PRR layouts on my web site at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ . Ray's was just added today, but no pics yet. There are many layouts with pics and diagrams posted. Most feature PRR, though Ray's is mostly NKP with a PRR element. If you would like a web site for your PRR layout, contact me off-list. It's free. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:58:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1 In a message dated 4/28/03 6:15:05 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Yes, Merchandise Service is continuing to take reservations on the T1. >> We and our distributor continue to do so as of last Friday (I was out sick today so can't comment on any weekend happenings). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI's T1/ Brass Locos Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:20:57 -0400 There really is nothing new about this practice. Those who have been around this hobby for many years will tell you about all the neat brass locos that were promised and never produced. For instance: Let's run an ad showing a picture of a full scale loco and see how many orders we get. If we don't get enough all we're out is the money for the ad. Phil P > Limited run locomotives are the name of the game now, and have been for the > past 10-15 years. NOTHING is going to change that, EVER, so everyone might > as well stop whining about it. Just as basically every "real" manufacturer > on the planet has gone to Just In Time delivery and stocking to reduce > overhead, slash costs, and cut inventorying costs, so too small model > manufacturers have been moving towards batch production, so their money goes > to where it's supposed to - their owner's pockets (it's called capitalism, > remember?). Model RR manufacturers are not a social welfare program. > > So if you want any given engine in this day and age, you've got three > options. Buy it when it comes out, as soon as it comes out, at full price. > Haunt Ebay hoping for elusive discounts on your favorite road. Learn to > paint. > > Respectfully, > > Ray Breyer > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:41:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Official Skinny on the BLI T1 Project From: Jerry Britton Yesterday the rumor floated that Broadway Limited Imports was cancelling their Pennsy T1 project. I found this hard to believe, but none-the-less, the rumor mill had struck again. I contacted BLI directly, through dealer channels, and just received this response: On 4/29/03 8:33 AM, BWTrain (private address ommitted) wrote: > There have been no discussions of canceling any projects. The T1 is > still scheduled for Fall 2003. Please post this response on your webs > for clarification. Thank you for choosing Broadway Limited Imports, > LLC. > Merchandise Service has taken orders and will continue to do so. In fact, this N scale modeler even ordered one! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR-talk Get-Together at Convention From: Jerry Britton I was asked last night if we ever set up a get-together for PRR-talk at the convention. No, we didn't. A few posts were made, but nothing firm. I think a Friday morning breakfast will be most doable. Let's do this. If you are interested in getting together for Friday breakfast, I'll scope out the hotel's offerings early Thursday. The vendor room will be open Thursday night. Stop by my tables (large WWW.PENNSYRR.COM sign) and we'll tally who all wants to attend and make plans. Other than that, PRR-talkers are welcome to hang out around my tables throughout the convention. Good to see and hear from you! What a great week: Keystone Crossings is hitting its ONE MILLIONTH page this week and the PRR-talk list has over 31,000 messages in its archive! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:51:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention in Cincinnati in 2004 From: Jerry Britton Next year the PRRT&HS convention moves to Cincinnati. Just last week there was an NMRA Regional in the same area. Allen McClelland, of the famed V&O, is in that area. His old V&O was dismantled when he moved. He is now building a new layout. I've seen some photos. He opened for the regional. His mainline reportedly will be up and running within the next year or so. Though it isn't PRR, I'm wondering how many people out there would be interested in seeing what this legend of model railroading is doing with his new division of the Virginian & Ohio? I know I'd jump at the chance. Are any of the 2004 convention planners on this list? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] 2004 convention Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:33:55 +0000 Is the convention always the first weekend in May? If not is the date of the 2004 convention set yet? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:42:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 2004 convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/03 11:33 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Is the convention always the first weekend in May? Subject to change, but yes. In 1999 it was in the fall in Altoona. > If not is the date of the > 2004 convention set yet? Thanks > Quite a while back the Society published the dates of April 29-May 3. However, you'll note that is five days, not four. I believe it will be April 29-May 2. That ends on a Sunday (2004 is a leap year, hence the two day difference from 2003). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] 2004 convention Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:43:28 -0400 Yes. Question to Mr. Tipton. Does anyone who goes to the Derby stay in Cincinnati? Will rooms be at a premium? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:34 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] 2004 convention Is the convention always the first weekend in May? If not is the date of the 2004 convention set yet? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 2004 convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/03 11:43 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Yes. Question to Mr. Tipton. Does anyone who goes to the Derby stay in > Cincinnati? Will rooms be at a premium? > Interesting catch! How far is Curchill Downs from Cincinnati? I see this year it coincides with the convention (which is obviously elsewhere). The Derby site does not have the date for 2004 posted. Would be a good opportunity for InterMountain to ship ready-to-run Bethlehem Car Works horse cars, huh? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] 2004 convention Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:58:15 -0400 Jerry, The derby is almost always conflicts withthe PRRT&HS meeting. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:55 AM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] 2004 convention On 4/29/03 11:43 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Yes. Question to Mr. Tipton. Does anyone who goes to the Derby stay in > Cincinnati? Will rooms be at a premium? > Interesting catch! How far is Curchill Downs from Cincinnati? I see this year it coincides with the convention (which is obviously elsewhere). The Derby site does not have the date for 2004 posted. Would be a good opportunity for InterMountain to ship ready-to-run Bethlehem Car Works horse cars, huh? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR in the midwest Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:07:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C30E50.42E544C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the = Canton District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track = mains, bridges, crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR = branches.......loads of industry and a huge roundhouse/yard..... You guys consider Ohio Midwest or??? Earl Myers Louisville, Ohio ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C30E50.42E544C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 I am in the "research" phase of = doing a=20 layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the Canton District from east of Alliance to = west of=20 Orville....4 track mains, bridges, crossings with W&LE, B&O, two = other=20 PRR branches.......loads of industry and a huge=20 roundhouse/yard.....
You guys consider Ohio Midwest = or???
Earl Myers
Louisville, = Ohio
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C30E50.42E544C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:16:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in the midwest From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/03 1:07 PM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the Canton > District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track mains, bridges, > crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of industry and a > huge roundhouse/yard..... > You guys consider Ohio Midwest or??? My original query was to strike up some talk of modeling the PRR's Western Region, which would be further west than Ohio. Still, good to hear from you... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:37:42 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] 2004 convention// Derby Day Jerry, yessir, the Kentucky Derby is always run on the first saturday in May. Having priorities, that's one reason I seldom make the conventions. Loovull's about a hundred miles from Cinncy, so I wouldn't be too surprised if there is some demand for rooms even that far over. Churchill Downs draws one huge crowd that weekend, and fairly late post times leave plenty of time for the drive. But I imagine the impact would be fairly minor. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:56:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Turning passenger cars Did the PRR routinely turn pullman cars so that the room rather than the corridor side would be facing the outside of the tracks, thus providing a better view for the traveller? Or was this a service provided only to better name trains, like the Broadway, or perhaps something done in the good old days that sort of just faded away like other curtosies on passenger trains? Thanks. Ron __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Turning passenger cars Did the PRR routinely turn pullman cars so that the room rather than the corridor side would be facing the outside of the tracks, thus providing a better view for the traveller? Or was this a service provided only to better name trains, like the Broadway, or perhaps something done in the good old days that sort of just faded away like other curtosies on passenger trains? Thanks. Ron __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:07:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Turning passenger cars From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/03 1:56 PM, Ronald Di Orio (prr2249@yahoo.com) wrote: > Did the PRR routinely turn pullman cars so that the > room rather than the corridor side would be facing the > outside of the tracks, thus providing a better view > for the traveller? Or was this a service provided > only to better name trains, like the Broadway, or > perhaps something done in the good old days that sort > of just faded away like other curtosies on passenger > trains? Thanks. Ron > The design of Sunnyside Yard, at the New York City end of the system, had a loop track, so cars were turned. I don't know what happened at the other ends, however. St. Louis, Detroit, and Chicago would be your major destinations. Harrisburg did not have a wye at the time. By the 1950's, I doubt much of that was done intentionally. However the 1954 ETT for the Pittsburgh Division does instruct the crew to announce the Horseshoe Curve IF traffic is such that there will be an unobstructed view. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:13:46 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Turning passenger cars The PRR stopped tuning the Congo in Washington some time in the 50's :-( It had to be Wyed on the B&O/PRR interlocking. However, the track plan at Sunnyside in NY was such that they would naturally have to use the turning loop or else cross over the multi-track (6 tracks?) LIRR main. So I suspect they continued to turn the trains at Sunnyside. Did this give rise to the strange situation that alternate Congos would arrive observation first, and be turned so they left the same way?? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 4/29/03 1:56 PM, Ronald Di Orio (prr2249@yahoo.com) wrote: > > > Did the PRR routinely turn pullman cars so that the > > room rather than the corridor side would be facing the > > outside of the tracks, thus providing a better view > > for the traveller? Or was this a service provided > > only to better name trains, like the Broadway, or > > perhaps something done in the good old days that sort > > of just faded away like other curtosies on passenger > > trains? Thanks. Ron > > > The design of Sunnyside Yard, at the New York City end of the system, had a > loop track, so cars were turned. > > I don't know what happened at the other ends, however. St. Louis, Detroit, > and Chicago would be your major destinations. Harrisburg did not have a wye > at the time. > > By the 1950's, I doubt much of that was done intentionally. > > However the 1954 ETT for the Pittsburgh Division does instruct the crew to > announce the Horseshoe Curve IF traffic is such that there will be an > unobstructed view. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:31:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Turning passenger cars But was there any intent to have the rooms face the right hand side where possible, I guess we are saying? Hmm, when I ride a train I always try to sit on the left hand side, so as to see more railroad action! Unless we're going east around Horseshoe, of course. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics PRR N-8 Cabin Cars. List........ Yesterday, I got my new PRR N-8 cabin cars by Rail Classics. I must say that these are the finest cabin cars I've even seen. I got the "Shadow Keystone" with antenna,Focal Orange" and the Penn Central versions. I know in the past on this list, folks shake their heads at brass cabin cars, but these cabins should make any PRR fan happy. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:57:45 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Florida Trains Hi, Pennsy hosted a significant number of foreign-road Florida trains, especially on the Washington-NYC portion of the railroad from roads like FEC, SAL, ACL and RF&P. I'm basically pretty ignorant when it comes to these trains, and I'm eager to learn a little more about them. So far, I've been looking thru Dubin's "Some Classic Trains" and also "The Orange Blossom Special". Both of these are excellent books, more than worthy of a place of honor in my library. Beyond these two titles, can anyone recommend any good books covering Florida trains? I'm asking this as a general question, and not just limited to the PRR hosting of such trains, altho my PRIMARY interest is to model the such a train on the PRR. My focus is on the heavyweight era, but I'd be delighted to also look thru references which cover both heavyweight and lightweight eras. Thanks in advance for any leads. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:04:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/29/03 --part1_1f1.7b0675a.2be0a55c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, My email has changed to gpandelios@paonline.com. Please update and continue sending this mailing list. Thanks, George --part1_1f1.7b0675a.2be0a55c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

My email has changed to gpandelios@paonline.com.  Please update and con= tinue sending this mailing list.

Thanks,

George
 --part1_1f1.7b0675a.2be0a55c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Florida Trains Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:22:42 -0400 Claus, It's late at night, but there were more than just the Florida trains hosted by PRR between NY and Wsshington. In connection with the Southern, there were trains to New Orleans (via three routes) and Memhpis as well. The Southerner to new Orleans went all SOU, the Crescent Limtied went SOU-A&WP-WofA-L&N, and the Pelican went SOU-Lynchburg-NW-Bristol-SOU. Rode all three between home and college! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:57 PM Subject: [PRR] Florida Trains > Hi, > > Pennsy hosted a significant number of foreign-road Florida > trains, especially on the Washington-NYC portion of the railroad > from roads like FEC, SAL, ACL and RF&P. > > I'm basically pretty ignorant when it comes to these trains, and > I'm eager to learn a little more about them. > > So far, I've been looking thru Dubin's "Some Classic Trains" > and also "The Orange Blossom Special". Both of these are excellent > books, more than worthy of a place of honor in my library. > > Beyond these two titles, can anyone recommend any good books > covering Florida trains? I'm asking this as a general question, > and not just limited to the PRR hosting of such trains, altho > my PRIMARY interest is to model the such a train on the PRR. > My focus is on the heavyweight era, but I'd be delighted to > also look thru references which cover both heavyweight and > lightweight eras. > > Thanks in advance for any leads. > > - Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05:36:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Florida Trains --part1_33.37e37afc.2be0f33b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claus, Try these books: By Streamliner - New York to Florida by Joseph M. Welsh Rails 'Neath the Palms by Robert W. Mann Through the Heart of the South - The Seaboard Air Line Railroad by Robert Wayne Johnson Atlantic Coast Line Passenger Service - The Post War Years by Larry Goolsby Also Public Timetables for the PRR, ACL, SAL, RF&P available on eBay Harold R. McGee Railroad Historian The Alachua County Florida Historical Commission --part1_33.37e37afc.2be0f33b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Claus,

Try these books:

By Streamliner - New York to Florida by Joseph M. Welsh

Rails 'Neath the Palms by Robert W. Mann

Through the Heart of the South - The Seaboard Air Line Railroad by Robert Wa= yne Johnson

Atlantic Coast Line Passenger Service - The Post War Years by Larry Goolsby<= BR>
Also Public Timetables for the PRR, ACL, SAL, RF&P available on eBay

Harold R. McGee
Railroad Historian
The Alachua County Florida Historical Commission --part1_33.37e37afc.2be0f33b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:34:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Today's the Day! From: Jerry Britton Sometime today Keystone Crossings will serve its one millionth page! I want to thank everyone who has made the site a success over the years, both through visitation and contributions. On the occasion of the ONE MILLIONTH page, please consider visiting the site and signing the Guest Book. Thank you! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] turning Chicago passenger trains Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:17:16 +0000 I forwarded the question to Bob Fredland one of our fledgling PRRT&HS Chicago chapter members. Bob worked Englewood tower for many years and say's more in one sentence then I will ever know about PRR operations in Chicago. Here is his response. Norm, I want to think that most long distance trains were, as a rule, turned, if for no other reason than to keep the Pullman cars properly pointed. Any car having roomettes (18 rmte., 10rmte.-5dbl.b-rm, 21 rmte., 10rmte.-6dbl.b-rm.) had all of the roomettes pointed, so that the occupants faced forward. The so- called all-room cars (12 duplex rm.-5dbl.b-rm., 13 dbl.b-rm., 4compt.- 2 dwg.rm.- 4dbl.b-rm.,12 duplex rm.-4dbl.b-rm.) had many pairings that had the double bedrooms, compartments and duplex rooms back-to-back, with the occupants alternately seated forward and backward, relative to forward train movement. With those cars, as a general rule, the hallway was on the left side of the car, relative to forward train movement. Another general observation (I can't be precise) is that PRR's imbedded dining cars usually rode with the dining room forward and the kitchen end aft. This applied to both single and twin-unit dining cars. I think that all of PRR's coaches (even up to the P85br class) had reversible seating, but on highly unitized trains, it made sense to turn the equipment, saving man-hours of coach yard labor, not to have to spin the seats around. Certainly, the so-called Pennsyliner trains were pretty much unitized and turned accordingly. These would have been; the Broadway Limited, the Liberty Limited, the General/Trail Blazer, the General and the Trail Blazer running separately (early 1950's) and the South Wind to Florida. The remaining East-West trains, and especially those to the South (Logansport and beyond), in all likelyhood, had their consists re-arranged at either end of their itineraries, as they may not have hosted the same type of traveller coming and going. Ed DeRouin and I had a similar discussion several months ago, relative to the same subject. One of the points explored was that there may not have been enough time to turn and service some of these train sets. The three (or four) Pennsyliner consists probably presented no problem as they all arrived by 9:00 A.M. and the earliest departure was 3:00 P.M. or later. The South Wind usually arrived in early evening and departed the next morning, no earlier than 8:30 A.M. The same applies to the Pennsylvania Limited (1->2), the Admiral (71->70, later 51->50) or The Gotham Limited (55->54). They all seem to have about six hour layovers. The problem train appears to be the Manhattan Limited (23->22). It arrived nominally at 7:30 A.M. and was due out variously, from 11:00 A.M. to 12:30 P.M. We were of a mind that another set of equipment may have protected that schedule. There were enough spare cars sitting around to do that. Another facet to consider is that several of the Florida trains were carry-overs from an older era. There used to be an all-Pullman train called the Florida Arrow. It disappeared from the schedule about 1952, at which point, streamlined Pullmans were added to the South Wind. That train was previously all-coach. Another train was the Southland. I briefly remember seeing it in 1957. It was gone, not long after. Both of these trains were principally equipped with heavyweight Pullmans. Because of the nature of heavyweight sections, compartments and drawing rooms, there were always facing seats in each unit. That being the case, there may have been no point in turning these cars. The other conditions may have yet applied. The turn-around route is not too hard to decipher. It may very well be in use by Amtrak. The six tracks leaving the South end of Chicago Union Station are broken into two groups. The Easterly four tracks, south of Roosevelt Road were used by the PRR and GM&ORR and known as the "joint tracks". They converged into two tracks at 18th.St. and crossed South Branch Bridge. The other two tracks passing south of Roosevelt Road became the CB&QRy. main line, turning west at 16th.St. towards Union Ave. Interlocking. At the point where the two Burlington mains turn to the west another track breaks away from the westermost of the "joint tracks" to follow the Burlington mains, along their south side. This North wye track is joined at its westerly point of tangency by another wye track returning to the south, which joins the four joint tracks, before their convergence to two tracks. The west tail of this wye parallels the Burlington mains, becoming a fourth main track, out to Cicero Yard. A switch off of this track goes to the CB&QRy. car washer. I never saw a complete move of this sort but can piece together enough of it from what I have seen. The "chaser", having a hold of the rear end of an incoming train, pulls southward on the westerly joint track, and around the North wye track, until it clears the wye switch. It will then shove the car set over the south wye, onto the joint tracks and out over the South Branch Bridge. The 18th.St. switchtender then re-aligns the switches to allow the chaser to pull through the PRR car washer (which is on the east side of the joint tracks, under the B&OCTRR and St Charles Air Line bridges), and straight north into the south end of the 12th.St. coach yard. I would see glimpses of these maneuvers when I rode to work on an inbound Rock Island suburban train. At about 8:00A.M. they would be turning either #75 or #23. The Burlington probably used the reverse maneuver, pulling out onto the South Branch Bridge, and shove around the south wye, through their car washer, and finally, pull across their mains, into their coach yard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:33:14 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Question Eric asks: > > I am trying to decide which GG1 to order of the upcoming BLI release. I >want >one in the DGLE five strip, here are the ones available: >Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4905 This is probably the second scheme for this loco as I have seen a photo of 4906 in Futura. The scheme is good for 1941- 1952 (ish). Certainly, the motors above 4910 never got Futura lettering. Thank goodness BLI corrected the number on this loco - they had been advertising 4805, which was wrong for a drop coupler pilot! >Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering, #4862 The as deleivered scheme, repainted to gold 5 stripe in 1941 (or '42 at the latest). 4862 was delivered at the end of 1937. I have photo confirmation of 4861 and 4863 in this scheme. >Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering, #4901 This is the third scheme for this motor. Repainted from 5 stripe gold in 1952 (or '53 at the latest). This GG1 would eventually help pull the JFK funeral train in PC paint. GG1s were repainted into the DGLE single broad stripe beginning in 1955, but a number of motors lasted into the late 50's with 5 stripe schemes, and the last unit to have this scheme was 4801 in 1974 so the "end date" for this scheme on this GG1 is vague! >When were each of these scheme used? And are they all accurate for the >drop coupler pilot? All are now appropriate for the drop coupler pilot (4859 and above) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:11:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] turning Chicago passenger trains Thanks to Norm and Bob for this interesting description; and yes, I think Amtrak still turns the trains on what Bob described as the "North wye track." Usually Amtrak turns the trains before arrival, with passengers aboard, and backs into Union Station. I rode #41, Three Rivers, into Chicago on March 18; I recall the procedure was to pull onto the "North wye" track, drop the rear-end cars (Material Handling Cars and RoadRailers), pull forward onto the ex-CB&Q tracks, and back into the station. The train was on time, but the Broadway it ain't. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention in Cincinnati in 2004 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:04:00 +0100 Jerry, I'm planning to attend the 2004 convention, all being well. Hopefully I'll have finished chipping cat-grot off loco wheels by then. Visiting the V & O would be an absolute must for me, if it can be arranged. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:51 PM Subject: [PRR] Convention in Cincinnati in 2004 > Next year the PRRT&HS convention moves to Cincinnati. > > Just last week there was an NMRA Regional in the same area. Allen > McClelland, of the famed V&O, is in that area. His old V&O was dismantled > when he moved. He is now building a new layout. I've seen some photos. He > opened for the regional. His mainline reportedly will be up and running > within the next year or so. > > Though it isn't PRR, I'm wondering how many people out there would be > interested in seeing what this legend of model railroading is doing with his > new division of the Virginian & Ohio? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:34:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] turning Chicago passenger trains In a message dated 4/30/03 9:14:41 AM Central Daylight Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: << Thanks to Norm and Bob for this interesting description; and yes, I think Amtrak still turns the trains on what Bob described as the "North wye track." >> I also appreciate the confirmation of what I suspected PRR did, based upon the video I took of Amtrak using that "North wye" during the visit by Chicago chapter members to the 20th Century club in January as guests of Jim Burd. As indicated, Amtrak wyes the trains with passengers on board, though it looked like one train arriving late headed right in, as I recall, and wyed later. In PRR case, other photo evidence indicates a switcher pulled the nonheadend part of the train to the wye. The road loco later backed out with any headend cars left to unload at Chicago Union Station. An interesting shot in one of the recent color books shows the Sante Fe 4-4-2 coast-to-coast Pullman from the Broadway being transferred to Dearborn station with the BM70nb still apparently coupled for the ride, unless they were planning to take the Sante Fe passengers along for the ride to drop the RPO car at the Post office :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:42:42 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Derby vs. PRRT&HS Cincinnati meeting In a message dated 4/30/03 1:12:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Yes. Question to Mr. Tipton. Does anyone who goes to the Derby stay in > Cincinnati? Will rooms be at a premium? > > Chris Chany > Chris, Answering several questions posted: 1. Yes, I nearly always have to decide whether to attend PRRT&HS or stay home for the Derby's parties and activities on the First Saturday in May. Believe I'm the only PRRT&HS member in Louisville who ever attends a Society annual. 2. Downtown Cincinnati is about 120 miles from the Derby in Louisville; northern Kentucky motels only a little closer. The Derby always impacts hotel room prices wickedly here in Louisville -- some people rent out their houses for the weekend. However, room prices over an hour away are usually not affected. 3. Speaking specifically of the PRRT&HS meeting in 2004, the Best Western Springdale is on the north side of Cincinnati (away from Louisville). I believe they have offered us a rate of $75 for next year, so we're obviously not going to pay a Derby premium. 4. I've not heard any plans about visiting my friend Allen McClelland's new Virginian & Ohio layout next year, but it's a visit that would appeal strongly to many modelers. As of last weekend, Allen had finished off his basement and had erected walls and benchwork for his "staging room". Other than one staging yard, only modest amounts of track had been laid yet. As you'd expect, the plans for the new division look good. BTW, Allen is again naming his stations alphabetically (this time from K to Z), and is toying with the idea of naming the western yard Undercliff (PRR's yard in Cincinnati was Undercliff). 5. I wish the 2004 committee was available online, but they departed Cincinnati last night in a van en route to eastern Pennsylvania. You'll be able to talk to them at the convention -- watch for the bright yellow shirts. I'd be on board that van if I hadn't developed a conflict literally at the last minute. Have a great time at this year's meet -- wish I could be with you. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:42:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Derby vs. PRRT&HS Cincinnati meeting --part1_11c.21bbed84.2be15702_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/30/03 1:12:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Yes. Question to Mr. Tipton. Does anyone who goes to the Derby stay in > Cincinnati? Will rooms be at a premium? > > Chris Chany > Chris, Answering several questions posted: 1. Yes, I nearly always have to decide whether to attend PRRT&HS or stay home for the Derby's parties and activities on the First Saturday in May. Believe I'm the only PRRT&HS member in Louisville who ever attends a Society annual. 2. Downtown Cincinnati is about 120 miles from the Derby in Louisville; northern Kentucky motels only a little closer. The Derby always impacts hotel room prices wickedly here in Louisville -- some people rent out their houses for the weekend. However, room prices over an hour away are usually not affected. 3. Speaking specifically of the PRRT&HS meeting in 2004, the Best Western Springdale is on the north side of Cincinnati (away from Louisville). I believe they have offered us a rate of $75 for next year, so we're obviously not going to pay a Derby premium. 4. I've not heard any plans about visiting my friend Allen McClelland's new Virginian & Ohio layout next year, but it's a visit that would appeal strongly to many modelers. As of last weekend, Allen had finished off his basement and had erected walls and benchwork for his "staging room". Other than one staging yard, only modest amounts of track had been laid yet. As you'd expect, the plans for the new division look good. BTW, Allen is again naming his stations alphabetically (this time from K to Z), and is toying with the idea of naming the western yard Undercliff (PRR's yard in Cincinnati was Undercliff). 5. I wish the 2004 committee was available online, but they departed Cincinnati last night in a van en route to eastern Pennsylvania. You'll be able to talk to them at the convention -- watch for the bright yellow shirts. I'd be on board that van if I hadn't developed a conflict literally at the last minute. Have a great time at this year's meet -- wish I could be with you. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11c.21bbed84.2be15702_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/30/03 1= :12:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Yes.  Question to Mr. Tipt= on.  Does anyone who goes to the Derby stay in
Cincinnati?  Will rooms be at a premium?

Chris Chany


Chris,

Answering several questions posted:

1. Yes, I nearly always have to decide whether to attend PRRT&HS or stay= home for the Derby's parties and activities on the First Saturday in May.&n= bsp; Believe I'm the only PRRT&HS member in Louisville who ever attends=20= a Society annual.

2.  Downtown Cincinnati is about 120 miles from the Derby in Louisville= ; northern Kentucky motels only a little closer.  The Derby always impa= cts hotel room prices wickedly here in Louisville -- some people rent out th= eir houses for the weekend.  However, room prices over an hour away are= usually not affected.

3.  Speaking specifically of the PRRT&HS meeting in 2004, the Best=20= Western Springdale is on the north side of Cincinnati (away from Louisville)= .  I believe they have offered us a rate of $75 for next year, so we're= obviously not going to pay a Derby premium.

4.  I've not heard any plans about visiting my friend Allen McClelland'= s new Virginian & Ohio layout next year, but it's a visit that would app= eal strongly to many modelers.  As of last weekend, Allen had finished=20= off his basement and had erected walls and benchwork for his "staging room".=   Other than one staging yard, only modest amounts of track had been la= id yet.  As you'd expect, the plans for the new division look good.&nbs= p; BTW, Allen is again naming his stations alphabetically (this time from K=20= to Z), and is toying with the idea of naming the western yard Undercliff (PR= R's yard in Cincinnati was Undercliff).

5.  I wish the 2004 committee was available online, but they departed C= incinnati last night in a van en route to eastern Pennsylvania.  You'll= be able to talk to them at the convention -- watch for the bright yellow sh= irts.  I'd be on board that van if I hadn't developed a conflict litera= lly at the last minute.  Have a great time at this year's meet -- wish=20= I could be with you.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_11c.21bbed84.2be15702_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:42:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Western Region --part1_1c7.8ef8a23.2be1570b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/30/03 1:12:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in the midwest > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:16:36 -0400 > > On 4/29/03 1:07 PM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > > > I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the > Canton > > District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track mains, > bridges, > > crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of industry > and a > > huge roundhouse/yard..... > > You guys consider Ohio Midwest or??? > > My original query was to strike up some talk of modeling the PRR's Western > Region, which would be further west than Ohio. Still, good to hear from > you... > Oops! In 1941 Western Region started at Crestline and at Columbus. Technically that leaves about half of Ohio (and how many divisions?) in Western Region. Although not gradeless, compared to Central Region, Western had flatter, faster runs with longer train lengths. This of course impacted on the motive power mix (at least until dieselization homogenized things some more). Again generally speaking, Ohio's Eastern and Panhandle Divisions had to deal with the remains of the eroded Appalachian plateau, with lots of streams cut deeply into hilly country. This same sort of formation extended east of Pittsburgh and south into West Virginia and Kentucky. On the other hand, the Western Region in Ohio ran across a landscape flattened by glaciers. In fact, a Columbus poster pointed out to me that the land west of Columbus and toward Xenia is technically the "Central Till Plain" (till being the ground up rocks left behind by a glacier). Check the recent Keystone writings on the fantastic speeds of T1 operation. Lots of those quoted 120 mph performances were on Western Region tracks in Ohio. PS In 1965, it looks like Western Region extended much farther east of Columbus and reached Cadiz Junction. So in that case, it almost reached Ohio's eastern boundary (the Ohio River). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1c7.8ef8a23.2be1570b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/30/03 1= :12:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in the m= idwest
From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:16:36 -0400

On 4/29/03 1:07 PM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote:

> I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the=20= Canton
> District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track mains, bri= dges,
> crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of= industry and a
> huge roundhouse/yard.....
> You guys consider Ohio Midwest or???

My original query was to strike up some talk of modeling the PRR's Western Region, which would be further west than Ohio. Still, good to hear from
you...


Oops!  In 1941 Western Region started at Crestline and at Columbus.&nbs= p; Technically that leaves about half of Ohio (and how many divisions?) in W= estern Region.  Although not gradeless, compared to Central Region, Wes= tern had flatter, faster runs with longer train lengths.  This of cours= e impacted on the motive power mix (at least until dieselization homogenized= things some more).

Again generally speaking, Ohio's Eastern and Panhandle Divisions had to deal= with the remains of the eroded Appalachian plateau, with lots of streams cu= t deeply into hilly country.  This same sort of formation extended east= of Pittsburgh and south into West Virginia and Kentucky. 

On the other hand, the Western Region in Ohio ran across a landscape flatten= ed by glaciers.  In fact, a Columbus poster pointed out to me that the=20= land west of Columbus and toward Xenia is technically the "Central Till Plai= n" (till being the ground up rocks left behind by a glacier).

Check the recent Keystone writings on the fantastic speeds of T1 operation.&= nbsp; Lots of those quoted 120 mph performances were on Western Region track= s in Ohio.

PS In 1965, it looks like Western Region extended much farther east of Colum= bus and reached Cadiz Junction.  So in that case, it almost reached Ohi= o's eastern boundary (the Ohio River).

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1c7.8ef8a23.2be1570b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:50:45 -0400 (GMT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] BLI E7- 04/30/03 The BLI E7 will be superior to the P2K. I have seen the NYC version, but not heard it run. The sound in their units is a key advantage of the whole product line. The simplicity of starting with a cheap MRC pack and going to DCC without having to buy a decoder and sound card. You have sound from day one and that equals fun especially for kids (even big ones)! If I get to see the M1 run I will let you know. The A for N&W is wonderful and pulls like a champ. If the T1 is even close to it in quality then I may have to come back to HO. Philip Taylor PRRT&HS #7240 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:53:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Derby vs. PRRT&HS Cincinnati meeting From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/03 12:42 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > 4. I've not heard any plans about visiting my friend Allen McClelland's new > Virginian & Ohio layout next year, but it's a visit that would appeal strongly > to many modelers. As of last weekend, Allen had finished off his basement and > had erected walls and benchwork for his "staging room". Other than one > staging yard, only modest amounts of track had been laid yet. As you'd > expect, the plans for the new division look good. BTW, Allen is again naming > his stations alphabetically (this time from K to Z), and is toying with the > idea of naming the western yard Undercliff (PRR's yard in Cincinnati was > Undercliff). > You say you've "not heard any plans". Might that be, as a non-PRR layout, that nobody thought of it? I've already gotten a few positive responses off-list at the suggestion. As for the new layout, he had an open house last week and there are photos of the layout plan and the layout online. Is Curt Larue (sp?) one of the planners? I see an e-mail address you included that looks like it could be his. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:01:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Hotel From: Jerry Britton If I read this topo map correctly, the convention hotel sits on a narrow slice of land between a road and the Northeast Corridor. That'll make for some interesting activity if/when there are slow times. Will need to pack my folding chairs! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] MR Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:01:46 +0000 Just read through the article on pike sized trains in the latest issue and wondered why MR was recommending people use the BLI E7 for a couple of the trains instead of P2k or Concor. Any thoughts as to why they would tell people to use the most expensive version that hasn't even hit the market instead of something that is available? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] MR & BLI E7 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:19:10 -0500 IMHO: Probably because it will appeal to a larger number of modelers, considering it's got sound, etc. Otherwise, I agree with you. A P2K would have been a better suggestion at this date. Maybe MR thought the BLI would be out by now? LOL Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 30 April, 2003 13:01 Subject: [PRR] MR > Just read through the article on pike sized trains in the latest issue and > wondered why MR was recommending people use the BLI E7 for a couple of the > trains instead of P2k or Concor. Any thoughts as to why they would tell people > to use the most expensive version that hasn't even hit the market instead of > something that is available? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Florida Trains Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:20:56 -0400 Claus and list, the PRRT&HS publication: Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering Guide, gives a brief overview of the PRR through train service to florida and nationwide. The also include the paintscheme and lettering of things. It doesn't go in depth, but gives the names of all of the interconnecting-pullmans for those trians that were owned by the PRR. If you don't have the book and are intgerested either stop by the National table this weekend or e-mail me back and i can forward the request to my dad. Yours in railroading, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:29:44 -0400 It also looks like it's on the take off glide path for the Airport. Can you say sleepless nights. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:01 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Convention Hotel If I read this topo map correctly, the convention hotel sits on a narrow slice of land between a road and the Northeast Corridor. That'll make for some interesting activity if/when there are slow times. Will need to pack my folding chairs! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:30:04 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] last year for diesels. Hello all: I was hoping somebody could tell me the LAST year that C-liners, Erie-Builts, and RS-12's could be found running before being traded-in/scrapped. Also, were all the F3's updated to F7's? Did they keep the same road numbers? Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:54:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/03 2:29 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > It also looks like it's on the take off glide path for the Airport. Can you > say sleepless nights. > Who sleeps at railroad conventions!!! Definitely right by the airport...on the "normal" approach side. Engines should be a little quieter! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:55:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: > If I read this topo map correctly, the convention hotel sits on a narrow > slice of land between a road and the Northeast Corridor. Isn't it further east than where the corridor turns "inland" from the river? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:04:10 -0400 Jerry, It's those 45 min power naps so that you can stay up all night!!!!!! :) See ya tomorrow!! Chris -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:54 PM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel On 4/30/03 2:29 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > It also looks like it's on the take off glide path for the Airport. Can you > say sleepless nights. > Who sleeps at railroad conventions!!! Definitely right by the airport...on the "normal" approach side. Engines should be a little quieter! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:16:51 -0400 What's the address? Chris -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:54 PM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel On 4/30/03 2:29 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > It also looks like it's on the take off glide path for the Airport. Can you > say sleepless nights. > Who sleeps at railroad conventions!!! Definitely right by the airport...on the "normal" approach side. Engines should be a little quieter! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:18:07 -0400 Al, Have we got someone to take photos of the models or should I bring my stuff? Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:25:26 -0400 No, there are no hotels in the flight path that I can recall. The runways are parallel to the river/highway/railroad. I have stayed at several in the area and never had any trouble. Don't plan on watching trains from a hotel window either as I don't think that can be accomplished unless there has been some new construction in the area. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Chany, Christopher Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:30 PM To: 'Jerry Britton'; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel It also looks like it's on the take off glide path for the Airport. Can you say sleepless nights. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:01 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Convention Hotel If I read this topo map correctly, the convention hotel sits on a narrow slice of land between a road and the Northeast Corridor. That'll make for some interesting activity if/when there are slow times. Will need to pack my folding chairs! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:26:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/03 3:18 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Have we got someone to take photos of the models or should I bring my > stuff? > I'll have a 3.1 megapixel digital camera. I'll also have my laptop. And the hotel has dataports. This may be a "digital convention"...imagine that! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:30:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Chany, Christopher wrote: > What's the address? 76 industrial highway. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:31:21 -0800 On all of the flights in and out of PHL i've been on... (50+ at last count).... The prevailing winds go generally north up the river. Just after take off, (runway 17), for noise abatement, the plane bears left to climb while over the river...... Good views off the right of the NEC through Chester, the 60th St Branch, and a RDG ROW. Leftside is the Paulsboro refinery and trackage.... On landing (runway 35), you get good views of the Delair Bridge, Delaware Ave tracks, and Greenwich Yard off the right.. Left side you can see Pavonia Yard sometimes... For railfanning, I recommend the South Street bridge, a few blocks south of the 30th Street Station. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel > No, there are no hotels in the flight path that I can recall. The > runways are parallel to the river/highway/railroad. I have stayed at > several in the area and never had any trouble. Don't plan on watching > trains from a hotel window either as I don't think that can be > accomplished unless there has been some new construction in the area. > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Chany, > Christopher > Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel > > > It also looks like it's on the take off glide path for the Airport. Can > you say sleepless nights. > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Subject: [PRR] Convention Hotel > > If I read this topo map correctly, the convention hotel sits on a narrow > slice of land between a road and the Northeast Corridor. > > That'll make for some interesting activity if/when there are slow times. > Will need to pack my folding chairs! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's the Day! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:53:28 -0500 Jerry, With all of this hype about the One Millionth page, I've been waiting for you to offer a prize for the person doing the down load. Merchandise Service could donate a BLI T1! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:54:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] MR >Just read through the article on pike sized trains in the latest issue and >wondered why MR was recommending people use the BLI E7 for a couple of the >trains instead of P2k or Concor. Any thoughts as to why they would tell >people >to use the most expensive version that hasn't even hit the market instead of >something that is available? Some folks think that the P2K nose is still wrong, I believe that the BLI E7 will come in a different "phase", adn at least for the GN train, it will come painted and lettered for the assigned loco! I was thinking about contributing a couple of trains from the PRR ranks...58/59 on the Octararo Branch (IIRC) aka the Mushroom Train and the Frederick RPO from Lancaster to Frederick Md. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:54:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/03 2:55 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> If I read this topo map correctly, the convention hotel sits on a narrow >> slice of land between a road and the Northeast Corridor. > > Isn't it further east than where the corridor turns "inland" from the > river? > > Upon further review, you are correct. There is a multi-track "Penn Central" line next to the hotel, which beelines towards 30th Street. However, when I backtracked, there is another multi-track line more inland. The two join about a mile SOUTH of the hotel. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:02:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Last year for diesels --part1_ca.1bc41ef6.2be185dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FM C-liners and Erie Builts ran into the spring of 1963 to my recollection at least that's the last I saw of them running. Some hung around in the scrap lines at East Altoona until 1965. RS12's ran into the PC era into early 1970's. --part1_ca.1bc41ef6.2be185dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FM C-liners and Erie Builts ran into the spring of 1963 to my rec= ollection
at least that's the last I saw of them running. Some hung around in the scra= p lines at East Altoona until 1965.
  RS12's ran into the PC era into early 1970's. --part1_ca.1bc41ef6.2be185dc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's the Day! On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Dave Pfeiffer wrote: > Jerry, > > With all of this hype about the One Millionth page, I've been waiting for you to offer a prize for the person doing the down load. Merchandise Service could donate a BLI T1! I'm sort of curious who it was. I got the 1000001'th page. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:12:21 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel Re: Just after take off, (runway 17), for noise abatement, the plane bears left to climb while over the river.....On landing (runway 35), you get good views of..... I believe the main runways and 09 and 27, generally parallel to the river and I-95. The general aviation and commuter runways might be 17 and 35. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Hotel Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:18:26 -0800 Ooops.. You're right. http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?size=big&mapdata=%2bDurgsgaQPu1q7cOaveg fIUUIfXQFAjwynwQ%2fWj3VS81QFZhaalVbU3BMEB2S1LTG7Z7orkqo0MBwKKHP5jEqKsNc2jUTa WzLk%2bf5G%2b1Nuz6b%2fGXY4XwKPfNBQFFfd52WHjXyzbNO1Fr1YhL%2bv4eAhhW8eeP3sQBDz Xv03PrvSMKRiUPNbVcdLqO2BREIA5AY1%2fvsx3SM7DUys6HM0ZXElGopOBKZme9ITCvzh1Zj3i7 6POwsrckdRB89IntUFrCYaJ9b%2bDwfOHoN5m5zkRwbut%2b7ycyEOf%2b7ehoG77ZvoU%3d -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Alex Charyna'" ; "'PRR-Talk Posting'" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:12 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Hotel > Re: Just after take off, (runway 17), for noise abatement, the plane > bears left to climb while over the river.....On landing (runway 35), you > get good views of..... > > > I believe the main runways and 09 and 27, generally parallel to the > river and I-95. The general aviation and commuter runways might be 17 > and 35. > > Al > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:12:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's the Day! From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/03 4:07 PM, "Derrick J Brashear" wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Dave Pfeiffer wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> With all of this hype about the One Millionth page, I've been waiting for >> you to offer a prize for the person doing the down load. Merchandise Service >> could donate a BLI T1! > > I'm sort of curious who it was. I got the 1000001'th page. > Nobody has come forward, thus far. May have been somebody off-list that dumbed into it! Remember, I did require a screen dump of the page displaying "1,000,000" so I could check the logs to verify that page served at the given time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:14:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MR From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/03 3:54 PM, "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > .58/59 on the Octararo Branch (IIRC) 58/59 was the Liberty Limited. Washington to Baltimore to York to Harrisburg to Pittsburgh to Chicago. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:20:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's the Day! On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: > > I'm sort of curious who it was. I got the 1000001'th page. > > > Nobody has come forward, thus far. May have been somebody off-list that > dumbed into it! > > Remember, I did require a screen dump of the page displaying "1,000,000" so > I could check the logs to verify that page served at the given time. 1) I wasn't #1000000 2) I intended to bring my laptop with said browser window still open, but then the browser (Mozilla) died anyway 3) can't you prove things by IP address? For instance, I know my cable modem is right now 24.53.182.224, and has been for months. I assume you know or can find out from the logs if #1000000 was from a dedicated address at leat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:38:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Florida Trains --part1_14e.1e810f19.2be1b874_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't forget the C&O trains that had through service on Pennsy rails between Washington and New York as well as a number of other Southern Railway trains as well. Chris B #1918 --part1_14e.1e810f19.2be1b874_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't forget the C&O trains that had through servi= ce on Pennsy rails between Washington and New York as well as a number of ot= her Southern Railway trains as well.

Chris B #1918 --part1_14e.1e810f19.2be1b874_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:48:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Western Region --part1_152.1ecbfc84.2be1bae3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/30/2003 12:49:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > I am in the "research" phase of doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the > Canton > > District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track mains, > bridges, > > crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of industry > and a > > huge roundhouse/yard..... > > You guys consider Ohio Midwest or??? > > I grew up in Canton and certainly consider Ohio to be the midwest. And for those of you who think Ohio is flat, west of Canton there was a grade through Wooster that required helper service. I used to go down to the depot while in college in Wooster and visit with railroaders there and watch the helpers run light downgrade. An engineer who usually worked the turnaround local out of Wooster told me the grade was the worst grade between X and Y -- where X and Y are cities whose names I have completely forgotten, but which at the time seemed quite distant. Lee Rainey --part1_152.1ecbfc84.2be1bae3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/30/2003= 12:49:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes:


I am in the "research" phase of= doing a layout circa 1944 in Ohio, the Canton
> District from east of Alliance to west of Orville....4 track mains, bri= dges,
> crossings with W&LE, B&O, two other PRR branches.......loads of= industry and a
> huge roundhouse/yard.....
> You guys consider Ohio Midwest or???



I grew up in Canton and certainly consider Ohio to be the midwest. And for t= hose of you who think Ohio is flat, west of Canton there was a grade through= Wooster that required helper service. I used to go down to the depot while=20= in college in Wooster and visit with railroaders there and watch the helpers= run light downgrade. An engineer who usually worked the turnaround local ou= t of Wooster told me the grade was the worst grade between X and Y -- where=20= X and Y are cities whose names I have completely forgotten, but which at the= time seemed quite distant.

Lee Rainey --part1_152.1ecbfc84.2be1bae3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:09:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Suitcase is packed. Vendor product is packed. Gas tank is topped off. Twelve hours until departure time. And I'm supposed to sleep tonight? Alas, the next sunrise will see the beginning of the pilgrimage from all points, converging on a tiny town outside of Philadelphia. The crusades! Long live the PRR! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:36:50 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! "Jerry @ Pennsy" wrote: > > Suitcase is packed. Vendor product is packed. Gas tank is topped off. > Twelve hours until departure time. > > And I'm supposed to sleep tonight? > > Alas, the next sunrise will see the beginning of the pilgrimage from > all points, converging on a tiny town outside of Philadelphia. The > crusades! Long live the PRR! It's all one big urban sprawl these days. You can go for miles and be surrounded by gas stations, fast food stores and strip malls. Advice for all those attending: the Wawa convenience store chain has the best coffee around. Their ice cream is also first rate since they started out as a dairy farm. At the intersection of Rt. 420 and MacDade Blvd (10~15 minutes away from the Convention site), there is a great fast food place called Nifty Fifty's. They make all their own food daily; sirloin burgers, fries, fantastic shakes, and 87 flavors of sodas (pop). See you there, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:37:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 08:36 PM, Bill wrote: > Advice for all those attending: the Wawa convenience store chain has > the best coffee around. Their ice cream is also first rate since they > started out as a dairy farm. At the intersection of Rt. 420 and > MacDade > Blvd (10~15 minutes away from the Convention site), there is a great > fast food place called Nifty Fifty's. They make all their own food > daily; sirloin burgers, fries, fantastic shakes, and 87 flavors of > sodas > (pop). > All that and no mention of Philly cheesesteaks? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:43:12 -0400 Did you pack your toothbrush? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! > Suitcase is packed. Vendor product is packed. Gas tank is topped off. > Twelve hours until departure time. > > And I'm supposed to sleep tonight? > > Alas, the next sunrise will see the beginning of the pilgrimage from > all points, converging on a tiny town outside of Philadelphia. The > crusades! Long live the PRR! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:45:01 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Model Photogaphy at the PRR convention Hi All, I have attended some of the convention planning meetings since last year. I have been involved in the model room management for my 2nd year now. I am taking the photos of all the models at the convention. I think I have the equipment and know how as you can see here. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_J1_2.jpg See you all in about 14 hours..... Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] last year for diesels. Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:16:32 -0400 Jeff, Very few F3's were "upgraded" to F7's and veen then that depends on what your definition is of "upgraded". None were renumbered because of this. Only those that survived to the general fleet renumbering of 1966 were renumbered. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Warner To: PRR-Talk Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:30 PM Subject: [PRR] last year for diesels. > Hello all: > I was hoping somebody could tell me the LAST year that C-liners, > Erie-Builts, and RS-12's could be found running before being > traded-in/scrapped. > > Also, were all the F3's updated to F7's? Did they keep the same road > numbers? > > Thanks, > > Jeff Warner > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:23:17 -0500 Jerry and all who are attending: Have a safe trip to the convention. Have a great time of fellowship. Have a cheese steak and tasty cake for me. I won't make it this year but next year will be a different story. :) As for me, I will be laying ballast and track on the Pennsy in northern Indiana. I gotta get the speedway ready for those BLI Mountains and T-1's! Ted Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:09 PM Subject: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! > Suitcase is packed. Vendor product is packed. Gas tank is topped off. > Twelve hours until departure time. > > And I'm supposed to sleep tonight? > > Alas, the next sunrise will see the beginning of the pilgrimage from > all points, converging on a tiny town outside of Philadelphia. The > crusades! Long live the PRR! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:23:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 08:43 PM, Bennett Levin wrote: > > Did you pack your toothbrush? > Cash...check, checkbook...check, credit card,..check, toothbrush...toothbrush?...uh... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] All Packed Up and No Place to Go! Don't forget an extra arm and a leg too. I suspect big city prices for goodies one would wish to take home from the vendor room :-). Have fun all!......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:56:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please! --part1_165.1f254b86.2be1d8e5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday morning. I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Tour for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing transfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make their own way there. The answer will affect my ETA in Essington... Chris Baker #1918 --part1_165.1f254b86.2be1d8e5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday mo= rning.  I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal To= ur for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing tra= nsfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make t= heir own way there.  The answer will affect my ETA in Essington...

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_165.1f254b86.2be1d8e5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:58:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How far east did those T1s roam?? --part1_145.1065fd05.2be1d95f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did any make as far east as Philadelphia or were they all turned back at Harrisburg? Chris Baker #1918 --part1_145.1065fd05.2be1d95f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did any make as far east as Philadelphia or were they=20= all turned back at Harrisburg?

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_145.1065fd05.2be1d95f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:18:44 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Help Please! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WE+f5GvJVwsLjzwa4XK5JQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Busses will be provided from the hotel to all destinations. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:57 PM To: mittner@webtv.net; jerry@pennsyrr.com Cc: v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please! I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday morning. I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Tour for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing transfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make their own way there. The answer will affect my ETA in Essington... Chris Baker #1918 --Boundary_(ID_WE+f5GvJVwsLjzwa4XK5JQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Busses will be provided from the hotel to all destinations.
 
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:57 PM
To: mittner@webtv.net; jerry@pennsyrr.com
Cc: v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Help Please!

I am planning to arrive at the convention on Friday morning.  I have a place reserved for Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Tour for Friday morning and I'm wondering if The Society will be providing transfers between the hotel and the tour site or are members expected to make their own way there.  The answer will affect my ETA in Essington...

Chris Baker  #1918
--Boundary_(ID_WE+f5GvJVwsLjzwa4XK5JQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!