From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:24:44 -0500 The Walther's Jordan spreader kit is very much like a PRR Jorden spreader I photographed and measured on a siding in Lancaster, Pa. many years ago. Walther's model was close enough to the real thing that I decided not to bother kitbashing. No, I don't know where the photos are at the moment. I bought several kits and built two and still have one unbuilt. I didn't have problems with mine although I used mine in well detailed static displays set up close to the edge of the layout. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Ronald Di Orio" Cc: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > > > Is this an accurate model of a PRR prototype, either the crane (or should I > say derrick) or the boom car? What about the paint scheme? It would seem to > me that the crane should be all black, and that cranes were never painted > either grey or yellow. If model is indeed accurate, what were the classes of > the equipment and possible numbers? And speaking of MOW equipment, did the PRR > ever have Jordan spreaders like the one offered by Walthers in HO? > > Ronald, > > The PRR did have 250 ton Derricks, although the Bachman model is > relatively crude and certainly doesn't look like Pennsy's. Among the > problems I note right away are the grossly out of scale main hook and the > extra tall stack. As you note, the derrick should be black, and that boom > car...that's amusing...a truss rod car with a 250 ton > derrick...interesting...accurate??? (probably not) Boom cars were usually > modified steel flat cars (class FM, FGR, FGRA) or gons (GR, GRA). The > only "boom cars" I know of with the little house on them were the class > FXL cars used as idler cars for crawler cranes. > > As for Jordan spreaders, the answer is a cautious yes. PRR Color Guide 3 > has a photo of Jordan 497404, built May 1929 that appears to have a > similar front blade. It is difficult to tell, but it appears to have a > wood sheathed cab. I would caution you that the Walthers kit is > relatively poorly engineered. I had a great deal of difficulty witht hte > mounting of the blade mechanism, as it couldn't support its own weight. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Power Generation Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 08:27:39 -0500 I understand that the blower motors in the Tunnel Hill area were originally powered by steam generated electricity and later replaced by the current diesel powered genereating equipment. Can anyone give me an idea of when this change occurred? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 09:13:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power Generation From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 2/1/03 8:27 AM, parkvarieties at parkvarieties@provide.net wrote: > I understand that the blower motors in the Tunnel Hill area were originally > powered by steam generated electricity and later replaced by the current > diesel powered genereating equipment. Can anyone > give me an idea of when this change occurred? Thanks. I can't pin down an exact era, but everything tells me it was done prior to 1954. I suspect late '40's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a "fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:46:56 -0500 Did ya havta remind us??? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:25 AM Subject: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today > > It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New > York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a > "fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:12:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale,paper,books,n scale --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the=20 above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages=20 =A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30 PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,=20 =A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $35 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5 PRR Annual Report-1930 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached, =A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18=A0=20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, =A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk=20 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30 PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95 PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5 PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section=20 =A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20=20 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40 CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & logo= =A0=20 $40 CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2 reg style=A0 $15 CR Annual Report-1987=A0 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent.=A0 $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0=20 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0=20 $55pr EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $15 Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List
=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp.

PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages
=A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30
PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85
PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20=
PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6
PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300
PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6<= /B>
PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5
PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,
=A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $3= 5
PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5
PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5
PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5
PRR Annual Report-1930 $3= 0
PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25
PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12
PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15
PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached,
=A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18= =A0
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22
PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents,
=A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk
PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5
PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30
PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95
PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18
PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12
PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5<= BR> PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16=
PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section
=A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20
PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40<= BR> PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40=
CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40
CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & l= ogo=A0 $40
CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2= reg style=A0 $15<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
CR Annual Report-1987=A0 = $12
CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo
but other wise excellent.=A0 $30
Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0
Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0 $55pr
EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $= 15

Thank you.
Pat McKinney



 --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:12:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale,paper,books,n scale --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the=20 above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages=20 =A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30 PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,=20 =A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $35 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5 PRR Annual Report-1930 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached, =A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18=A0=20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, =A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk=20 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30 PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95 PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5 PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section=20 =A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20=20 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40 CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & logo= =A0=20 $40 CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2 reg style=A0 $15 CR Annual Report-1987=A0 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent.=A0 $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0=20 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0=20 $55pr EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $15 Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List
=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp.

PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages
=A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30
PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85
PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20=
PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6
PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300
PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6<= /B>
PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5
PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,
=A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $3= 5
PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5
PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5
PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5
PRR Annual Report-1930 $3= 0
PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25
PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12
PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15
PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached,
=A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18= =A0
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22
PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents,
=A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk
PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5
PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30
PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95
PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18
PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12
PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5<= BR> PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16=
PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section
=A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20
PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40<= BR> PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40=
CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40
CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & l= ogo=A0 $40
CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2= reg style=A0 $15<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
CR Annual Report-1987=A0 = $12
CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo
but other wise excellent.=A0 $30
Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0
Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0 $55pr
EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $= 15

Thank you.
Pat McKinney



 --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:21:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today In a message dated 2/1/03 8:56:38 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a "fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. >> I have to take some of the responsibility for this. I told them in late 1966 that I wanted a raise and an official promotion to the position I was actually filling, along with my own job. They declined and said that I was, of course, free to find another job. I warned them that, if I left, it was downhill from there for the Pennsy. They said that it was a risk they would have to take (at least, that is how I remember it now). So, I found another job and left the PRR effective October 14, 1966. And, about 15 months later, the PRR ceased to exist. Most of my colleagues in the administrative areas went to the merged company. And, for the next couple of years where I kept some contacts, I heard nothing but stories of the friction between the red team and the green team. What I am not sure of is how, when or why the Penn Central failed. And, since I never worked for the outfit, I've never bothered to check. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods --0-688077495-1044119895=:89437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRROBS.html. Others have already sent you the names. Ron John Sheets wrote:PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427 Did they also have names? TIA John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-688077495-1044119895=:89437 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRROBS.html. Others have already sent you the names.   Ron

 John Sheets <john@mpa-inc.com> wrote:

PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations

Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427

Did they also have names?

TIA
John


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-688077495-1044119895=:89437-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:27:17 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today Long live the Pennsylvania Railroad. zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New >York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a >"fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bowser I1 "RealisM' --0-1729054476-1044120680=:49890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Check out the photos of I-1s in Pennsy Power. The three sets of blind drivers are clearly visible, and as you mentioned, appear awfully wide. Ron VVA249@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes: I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more realistic. In terms of "realism" It's been a while since I visited the sole surviving I-1 in Buffalo but, as I recall, the last "Real" one (which should be some measure of "realism") had three axles worth of "blinded" drivers. Center axle had blind tires which must have been 10" wide --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1729054476-1044120680=:49890 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Check out the photos of I-1s in Pennsy Power.  The three sets of blind drivers are clearly visible, and as you mentioned, appear awfully wide.   Ron

 VVA249@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes:


I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers
with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more
realistic.

In terms of "realism"


It's been a while since I visited the sole surviving I-1 in Buffalo but, as I recall, the
last "Real" one (which should be some measure of "realism")
had three axles worth of "blinded" drivers.


Center axle had blind tires which must have been 10" wide




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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1729054476-1044120680=:49890-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes --0-657539002-1044121267=:37408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 1. P-54 coaches. Were these used in suburban service anywhere in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification of the Main Line to Paoli? For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? 2. Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions? Have a a couple of photographs, that's not the problem. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-657539002-1044121267=:37408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

1.  P-54 coaches.  Were these used in suburban service anywhere in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification of the Main Line to Paoli?  For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area?

2.  Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549).  Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions?  Have a a couple of photographs, that's not the problem.

Thanks.  Ron

 


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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-657539002-1044121267=:37408-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 12:49:13 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0460_01C2C9F0.52B1C030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have one item left for sale on e-Bay, item #2156403574 (4 PRR Time = Tables) . Other items will be forthcoming in the near future. Thanks.. Don ------=_NextPart_000_0460_01C2C9F0.52B1C030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks..
Don
------=_NextPart_000_0460_01C2C9F0.52B1C030-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bowser I1 "RealisM' Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 13:44:24 -0500 The 2 basic reasons blind drivers are wide is because they are normally made that way by cutting the flanges off. This increases the effective width of the wheels and for good reason if you are going to run on tight a tight radius turn. They could jam on the rails and cause a derailment. They don't look good, But... If you all know this I apologize for preaching to the "choir" . Phil > > Check out the photos of I-1s in Pennsy Power. The three sets of blind drivers are clearly visible, and as you mentioned, appear awfully wide. Ron > VVA249@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes: > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:20:28 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes Hi Ronald, Ronald asked: > 1. P-54 coaches. Were these used in suburban service anywhere > in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification > of the Main Line to Paoli? I don't know. > For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified > coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? Apparently yes. "Pennsy Power" by Stauffer pg 136 bottom shows a train of three P54 coaches behind E7s 8588, dated Aug 4, 1929 leaving Union Station, Chicago. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:24:58 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0728_01C2C9E4.8DA4CEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the cars has been made AMTRAK compatible and is currently stored = at the ATSF station in Winslow AZ. approx 2 blocks east of the famous = "corner" Bennett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: John Sheets ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at = http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRROBS.html. Others have already sent you = the names. Ron=20 John Sheets wrote:=20 PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427 Did they also have names? TIA John = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_0728_01C2C9E4.8DA4CEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the cars has been made AMTRAK = compatible and=20 is currently stored at the ATSF station in Winslow AZ. approx 2 blocks = east of=20 the famous "corner"
 
Bennett
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
Sent: Saturday, February 01, = 2003 9:18=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class = POS211=20 Ods

There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at http://varnish.pennsyrr.= com/PRROBS.html. Others=20 have already sent you the names.   Ron=20

 John Sheets <john@mpa-inc.com> = wrote:=20 PRR=20 Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR = Observations

Pullman=20 Built were numbered car 8421-8427

Did they also have=20 = names?

TIA
John


------------------------------------= -----------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_0728_01C2C9E4.8DA4CEF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 13:10:21 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] MP-54 coaches Hello, all, Class MP-54 coaches, combines, and other variations were used all over the PRR system, but especially in suburban services such as Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. As far as I can tell, the class designation (at least in 1920) was MP-54, even for non-electrified cars. There were around 600 class -54 cars in 1920, the majority of which were non-electrified. Outside of suburban service, these cars seemed most likely to be assigned to the lower density branch lines. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:58:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks --part1_112.1e2b692e.2b6d8edb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery car brake details and assignment questions. One last question on the battery car. Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? Walthers had made caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone. Oops, that's three questions. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_112.1e2b692e.2b6d8edb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery car brake details and assignment questions.

  One last question on the battery car.  Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator?  Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale?  Walthers had made caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone.

  Oops, that's three questions.

  Many thanks,

  Evan Leisey


   --part1_112.1e2b692e.2b6d8edb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 15:42:42 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today Marty, what a load off my mind. The New York Central was still making a profit when I left there in 1966...and then they went downgrade, too...I have always had these guilt feelings. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------ Marty wrote: ....... I have to take some of the responsibility for this..... ...So, I found another job and left the PRR effective October 14, 1966. And, about 15 months later, the PRR ceased to exist.... Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 16:48:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C2CA11.B66F56C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, Don't know about HO, but Micro-Trains makes this truck in N scale. They = call it a "coil-elliptic" truck. Perhapds Kadee makes the same thing in = HO. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:58 PM Subject: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery = car brake details and assignment questions.=20 One last question on the battery car. Noticed in the scanned photo = that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. = Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this = truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? Walthers had made caboose = trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone. Oops, that's three questions. Many thanks, Evan Leisey =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C2CA11.B66F56C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
Don't know about HO, but Micro-Trains makes this = truck in N=20 scale. They call it a "coil-elliptic" truck. Perhapds Kadee makes the = same thing=20 in HO.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, February 01, = 2003 3:58=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Battery Car = Trucks

  First, thanks to all for the informative = responses=20 to the battery car brake details and assignment questions. =

  One=20 last question on the battery car.  Noticed in the scanned photo = that the=20 truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this = a Pennsy=20 design and if so what was the PRR designator?  Is this truck or = leaf=20 springs available in HO scale?  Walthers had made caboose trucks = leaf=20 springs about a decade ago but they are long gone.

  Oops, = that's=20 three questions.

  Many thanks,

  Evan=20 Leisey


   = ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C2CA11.B66F56C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 18:52:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes In a message dated 2/1/03 11:52:50 AM Central Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? >> Chicago. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:02:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks In a message dated 2/1/03 3:06:17 PM Central Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: << Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? >> Pennsy design. I have a vague recollection Sunshine Models made this truck in a metal casting kit. Can anyone else confirm? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:14:36 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes > From: > Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST > > > --part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Jerry: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin > car arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings: > > Shadow Keystone > ND, NDA, N6, N6B drawing date 1-5-56 > N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F drawing stged 12-8-55 > N8 drawing 12-15-55 > > All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK > > Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61 > > Rich Orr > True -- To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b. Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.). Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone. There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially. However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along. There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday. Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all. Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's. And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing. I know you picked 1954 for good reason. But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars). This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts... Best wishes, Rick Tipton Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout. You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:14:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b --part1_16f.1a0d374c.2b6dbcec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes > From: > Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST > > > --part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Jerry: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin > car arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings: > > Shadow Keystone > ND, NDA, N6, N6B drawing date 1-5-56 > N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F drawing stged 12-8-55 > N8 drawing 12-15-55 > > All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK > > Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61 > > Rich Orr > True -- To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b. Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.). Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone. There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially. However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along. There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday. Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all. Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's. And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing. I know you picked 1954 for good reason. But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars). This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts... Best wishes, Rick Tipton Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout. You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio. --part1_16f.1a0d374c.2b6dbcec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes
From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST


--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jerry:

The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin
car  arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings:

Shadow Keystone
ND, NDA, N6, N6B         drawing date 1-5-56
N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F   drawing stged 12-8-55
N8   drawing 12-15-55

All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK

Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61

Rich Orr



True --

To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b.  Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.).

Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone.  There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially.  However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along.

There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday.

Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all.   Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's.  And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing.

I know you picked 1954 for good reason.  But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars).  This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts...

Best wishes,

Rick Tipton
Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout.  You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio.
 --part1_16f.1a0d374c.2b6dbcec_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Subject: [PRR] New Releases Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:18:33 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C2CA26.B60A6DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the Big E show in Springfield, MA we have debuted our latest = releases. A PRR Standard Tool House and a Standard Scale House. They = are available in N, HO, S, O, & G Scale. Check our website for more = information. Dayna Warner CEO Trainstuff LLC www.trainstuffllc.com ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C2CA26.B60A6DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At the Big E show in Springfield, = MA we=20 have debuted our latest releases.  A PRR Standard Tool House and a = Standard=20 Scale House.  They are available in N, HO, S, O, & G = Scale.  Check=20 our website for more information.
 
 
Dayna Warner CEO
Trainstuff = LLC
www.trainstuffllc.com ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C2CA26.B60A6DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RobertR453@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:49:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum --part1_176.15acd576.2b6de12b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the position of the Musuem in town but if the track was available the Sam Rea shops sure would make a nice musuem. If the track was available too they could run excursion too? Has any researched/mentioned this? --part1_176.15acd576.2b6de12b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I like the position of the Musuem in town but if the track was available the Sam Rea shops sure would make a nice musuem.  If the track was available too they could run excursion too?  Has any researched/mentioned this? --part1_176.15acd576.2b6de12b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 20:51:50 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/1/03 3:06:17 PM Central Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com > writes: > > << Is this a > Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this truck or leaf > springs available in HO scale? >> > > Pennsy design. I have a vague recollection Sunshine Models made this truck > in a metal casting kit. Can anyone else confirm? Bowser makes these trucks in HO. Part #74190 Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:02:09 -0800 From: smartcommco@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] A point of clarification. It has been brought to my attention off-line that I may have caused undo and unfair embarrassment to the interim Board of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Hopefully this will set the record straight. I was asked by my client to determine the "creative control" issue BEFORE revealing their underwriting offer. Since the issue of " creative control" was not approved by the Museum, the funding offer was not presented. At no time did the Museum turn down a corporate funding offer over the issue of "creative control". If my comments caused anyone on this list to come to that conclusion, I am deeply regretful. Harry Webber ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 23:15:43 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Gentlemen, I have two requests involving the N-5b cabooses: (1) KENNY KING bought a N-5? from CONRAIL and has it on a piece of track in his yard in LATROBE, PA. It has a CR number on it . . . CR 46152. He is building a 1.6 scale model of this caboose and would like to number his model the PRR number of the CR 46152. Can anyone, please cross-reference this CR number and give me the PRR number for this caboose and the class? I have to get the lettering before FEBRUARY 7th, so I need this information ASAP! If you have any history connected with this caboose, he would like to have it too! (2) I am building a 1.6 scale model of a N-5b caboose. I plan to letter it with the full PENNSYLVANIA on the side with the "Shadow" keystone. I would like to number it for a caboose that was assigned between ENOLA and ALTOONA or CONWAY. Can you come up with a good PRR number? Please be sure it is a N-5b! THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:21:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C2CA51.05087FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron Di Orio asked: Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find = plans or at least major dimensions? Have a couple of photographs, = that's not the problem. See the October 1999 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman for drawings by = Chuck Yungkurth. By the way, you can search for magazine articles at = http://index.mrmag.com by keyword or author. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C2CA51.05087FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron Di Orio asked:
Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549).  Anyone know where I can = find=20 plans or at least major dimensions?  Have a couple of photographs, = that's=20 not the problem.
 
See the October 1999 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman for drawings = by=20 Chuck Yungkurth.
 
By the way, you can search for magazine articles at http://index.mrmag.com by keyword or = author.
 
 
Ben Hom
------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C2CA51.05087FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:47:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Answers to Part 2: Here are some numbers of N5b cabin cars assigned between Enola,Altoona and Conway: 477683: Alto-Enola Crew 222/Pitts. Div 477640: Enola- Alto Crew 132/Pitts Div. (TrainPhone Eqiup.) 477717: Conway-Altoona Crew/Pitts Div. 477718: Conway-Altoona Pool/Pitts Div. (cabin car equip. for Pass. Service) info from "System Cabin Car Assignments" May 1957. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 06:43:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Battery Car coil-eliptic trucks In a message dated 2/2/03 6:12:27 AM !!!First Boot!!!, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? >> Typically, these trucks were 2D-F18 or 2D-F19. The official PRR tracings indicate different contours to the two sideframes Brian Butcher PRRT&HS #5540 PRR 30s-50s 1/160th scale http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 04:54:48 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa flanged drivers Hello list, With all of the talk about I1s/I1sa flanged drivers, I leafed through my Keystone reprints. Volume 7, Number 1 (March 1974) says on page 9 that I1s/I1sa engines began receiving flanged second and fourth driver sets starting in 1938. Center driver remained unflanged (blind). With a large fleet of engines (over 4000 during most of the 1940s), it probably took quite some time to convert the entire fleet of I1s/I1sa engines. The article lists the drivers (1st through 5th axles) as Flanged 7.5" plain 8.5" plain 7.5" plain flanged After 1938, listing shows all drivers flanged, except the center driver, which was 7" plain. One other tidbit from the same issue. Until 1934, all Pacifics had unflanged center drivers. After 1934, they began to receive flanged center drivers. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:41:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes 1. P-54 coaches. Were these used in suburban service anywhere in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification of the Main Line to Paoli? For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? 2. Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions? Have a a couple of photographs, that's not the problem. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:21:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes Ron Di Orio asked: Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions? Have a couple of photographs, that's not the problem. See the October 1999 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman for drawings by Chuck Yungkurth. By the way, you can search for magazine articles at http://index.mrmag.com by keyword or author. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:46:17 EST Subject: [PRR] What Pass. Train --part1_65.8c03784.2b6e7b29_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, In the 60's, 64 to 68, I would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 at night and this train would be passed Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns first light. What train, number and name, would this have been? Evan Leisey --part1_65.8c03784.2b6e7b29_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

   In the 60's, 64 to 68,  I would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 at night and this train would be passed Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns first light.   What train, number and name, would this have been?

Evan Leisey --part1_65.8c03784.2b6e7b29_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:52:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR G39 Jennies from Stewart Hobbies (HO) List....... I just want to pass on some info I just got. PRR G39 ore jennies will be released with both style trucks real soon. Don't know all the details but I understand that the jennies will be released in packs of four, maybe more. Maybe someone else can chime in with more info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Observation Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:26:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2CA9D.3231DCC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is Three = GG-1's with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive. Is my 72 year old memory failing me wasn't this problem corrected after = the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged these = intakes? I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near the = Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the = picture caption?? Lee Burbage ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2CA9D.3231DCC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is = Three GG-1's=20 with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive.
 
Is my 72 year old memory failing me  wasn't this problem = corrected=20 after the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged = these=20 intakes?
 
I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near = the=20 Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the = picture=20 caption??
 
Lee Burbage
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2CA9D.3231DCC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 09:33:25 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Looking for Paul Martineau Paul, if you are on this list, would you drop me a line, please? Anyone else, if you hve a current email address for Paul, please let me know. Thanks, Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:55:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] What Pass. Train --part1_163.1b1af000.2b6e8b77_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/2003 8:54:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > In the 60's, 64 to 68, I would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, > Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 at night and this train would be passed > Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns first light. What train, number and > name, would this have been? > My 1968 Official Guide (after the merger) shows Train 615 stopping at Lancaster at 11:01 pm en route to an 11:34 pm arrival in Harrisburg. However no connecting service into Ohio is shown. For trains running through into Ohio, Train 3, the "Penn Texas", stopped at Lancaster at 9:38 pm but was in Indiana by 5 am, en route to St. Louis. Train 49, the "Broadway Limited", stopped at Lancaster at 7:50 pm and exited Ohio just after 6 am en route to Chicago. Lee Rainey --part1_163.1b1af000.2b6e8b77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/2/2003 8:54:05 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes:


In the 60's, 64 to 68,  I=20= would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 a= t night and this train would be passed Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns= first light.   What train, number and name, would this have been?=


My 1968 Official Guide (after the merger) shows Train 615 stopping at Lancas= ter at 11:01 pm en route to an 11:34 pm arrival in Harrisburg. However no co= nnecting service into Ohio is shown.

For trains running through into Ohio, Train 3, the "Penn Texas", stopped at=20= Lancaster at 9:38 pm but was in Indiana by 5 am, en route to St. Louis. = ; Train 49, the "Broadway Limited", stopped at Lancaster at 7:50 pm and exit= ed Ohio just after 6 am en route to Chicago.

Lee Rainey --part1_163.1b1af000.2b6e8b77_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:16:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] What Pass. Train Evan, In 1964, train #3, the Penn Texas, made a westbound stop at 11:38 PM. The closest Chicago trains were the General at 7:45 pm and the Pennsylvania Ltd at 2:05AM. Looks like #3. Would that train's route take you to where you were going? Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 12:30:27 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks --------------CFA011EE8B313542029DB350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery > car brake details and assignment questions. > > One last question on the battery car. Noticed in the scanned photo > that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. > Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is > this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? Walthers had made > caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone. > > Oops, that's three questions. > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > Evan- These are some of the coil-elliptical trucks PRR used. There are others. If you want the whole list, let me know off line. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO 2D-F3 ASF Andrews- Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton - Accurail #103 2D-F3 ASF Andrews- Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton- Bowser #74190 2D-F4a ARA Type W Bett-Cast 5'6"-coil/ellip spg-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-Bolted jrnls-FB-33"pl wh.-Scale width- #Accurail 100 2D-F12 AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ single coil/elliptical springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton-1930's Sunshine Models TM6 2D-F12 AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton Bowser 74190 2D-F12 AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton Rail Classics ?? 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Ribbed wh. LifeLike 21251 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Flat wh. LifeLike 21253 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton Tichy 3049 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-Sprung-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1001 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Metal wh. Walthers 1008 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1012 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Brass wh. Intermountain 40060 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Red Caboose 5004 --------------CFA011EE8B313542029DB350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

  First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery car brake details and assignment questions.

  One last question on the battery car.  Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator?  Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale?  Walthers had made caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone.

  Oops, that's three questions.

  Many thanks,

  Evan Leisey
 

Evan-

These are some of the coil-elliptical trucks PRR used. There are others. If you want the whole list,
let me know off line.

Regards,

Eddie
Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO

2D-F3  ASF Andrews-   Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton -    Accurail #103

2D-F3  ASF Andrews-   Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton-   Bowser #74190

2D-F4a   ARA Type W Bett-Cast 5'6"-coil/ellip spg-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-Bolted jrnls-FB-33"pl wh.-Scale width- #Accurail 100

2D-F12     AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ single coil/elliptical springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton-1930's   Sunshine Models TM6

2D-F12     AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton Bowser 74190

2D-F12     AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton   Rail Classics ??

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Ribbed wh. LifeLike 21251

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Flat wh. LifeLike 21253 

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton Tichy 3049

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-Sprung-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1001

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Metal wh. Walthers 1008

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1012

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Brass wh. Intermountain 40060

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Red Caboose 5004
  --------------CFA011EE8B313542029DB350-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:46:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Observation Lee and the List, While the railroad modified many of the GG1s, most probably did not get it. I base this on my observations in the PC/Conrail days where Dick Pfeiffer and I each tabulated which had the modifications on the GG1s still running. Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:50:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Update List, Work on the B6sb progressed well this week with the Tender being my main focus. The final look of the Tender captured what I was after. I posted more photos on the website if you care to check: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html .......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 13:58:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/03 From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, Just a bit of trivia for you Railfesters. As you know, the PRR Testing plant along 17th St. was torn down some time ago. My Uncle Don Croyle worked in the plant and rescued a number of important things such as boxes of glass negatives of very old steam builders shots. The demolition crew, knowing that a parking lot would be close by (the Station Mall), they simply dumped a lot of PRR stuff into the hole along with fill and covered it with blacktop. Some day, when the Station Mall has lost its charm ;) RR archaeologists will find many interesting artifacts. So, next time you're tailgating at RF, just imagine what you're standing on top of!!! Steve -- Steve Prosser sprosser@attbi.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:28:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dream Excursion From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Howse about this for a dream excursion for 1361? >From the RR museum down the old Hollidaysburg Branch to the Wye switches and then (here comes the dream part) around Duncansville to Foot of Ten (so called because it was the foot of the tenth plane of the Portage RR) up along old Rt. 22 to the Muleshoe Curve up to the mountain crest with a turn around before you hit Rt. 22 near Tunnel Hill . . . OK I said it was a dream, but what a dream. I walk the Muleshoe every Spring to watch birds and the roadbed is still beautifully crested and you can kick up a spike and other metal parts without much trouble. This is now State Game lands and the area, one can imagine, is just as beautiful as when Dickens took the trip on the Portage RR in the mid-1800s. Still dreaming! -- Steve Prosser sprosser@attbi.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:02:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Ore traffic questions The announcement of the G39 from Stewart raises a few questions. I have also seen leased DM&IR jennies on the Pennsy. Were they ever run mixed with G38s and G39s? What year were they leased? Second, would there be a reasonable expectation in 1961 that a shark lashup could pull the Pennsy cars? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR G39 Jennies from Stewart Hobbies (HO) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:51:08 -0500 Stewart had samples at the Springfield train show yesterday... They were complete except for the ladders and some other detail parts. They looked real nice, and are heavy! The body of the car is cast metal. The ladders are separate but the grabs are cast on. They're doing G39's (Crown Trucks) and G39b's (bettendorf trucks) Three four packs of each type in PRR along with a single decorated car of each type for 26 decorated cars total! Supposedly they'll be out in March... The flyer just has TBA for the price.... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:52 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR G39 Jennies from Stewart Hobbies (HO) List....... I just want to pass on some info I just got. PRR G39 ore jennies will be released with both style trucks real soon. Don't know all the details but I understand that the jennies will be released in packs of four, maybe more. Maybe someone else can chime in with more info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore traffic questions Bob, I have seen photos of Sharks pulling jennies around the Cleveland area (Whiskey Island) in early 1960s. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:11:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Terminating Cincinnati passenger trains --part1_11.8e0d958.2b6effa5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/03 10:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:27:34 EST > From: RGAST2@aol.com > Subject: Cincinnati Question > > Since CUT opened, didn't all Pennsy passenger trains into Cincinnati use > the > Norwood connection, thence the B&O down through Ivorydale Junction to CUT? True - PRR trains from Columbus and from Richmond (and N&W trains from Portsmouth) used OAKLEY to reach the Norwood connection, entering the B&O at the east end of EAST NORWOOD interlocking. > > A friend and I got to wondering this week if PRR didn't have a way to get > from Undercliff into the south end of CUT. I said I didn't think they had > a > direct way, but still could saw through if they ever had to. Does anyone > know for sure? Did PRR passenger trains ever have to run via Undercliff, > either regularly or as a detour? > > Jeff > Jeff, Chad, et al, Before CUT opened, there's evidence that drafts of sleepers (and maybe headend equipment) were shuttled among the 5 or 7 or whatever predecessor passenger stations. Some MAY have been via the PRR's Cincinnati Street Connecting Railway you refer to, although this is a lot of street running. If you'd ever watched PRR freight transfers or DT&I DC-7/DC-6 crawling in Front Street across the waterfront at Cincinnati (west of Undercliff, OASIS, and the site of former PRR Pearl Street Station), dodging autos and trucks and lots of industry switches, you would understand why CSCRy would be a very undesirable route for passenger trains. There were many interconnectons along Cincinnati's west waterfront to B&O, Southern, Big Four, and C&O. However, like you I'm not aware of any that would lead a movement off the CSCRy to CUT without any backing. Backing from Storrs Yard on the B&O onto the CUT southwest connector, or backing up off the NYC ditch track at Wood Street onto the C&O bridge to reach the southeast connector would make this evolution even more unattractive. In fact, the Wood Street maneuver would be something like switchbacking the Cincinnati Limited across Rollins Pass (the "Giant's Ladder" was of course replaced by Moffatt Tunnel). I'm not saying they NEVER did this (although I've never heard of it before, and no author I know gives this theory a whirl). I'm just saying it would be a lot worse than, say, detouring via Dayton down the New York Central to Ivorydale Junction, or detouring via B&O's Toledo Division/CH&D from Hamilton. Those are emergency diversions that make good operating sense. BTW -- forgive all the unexplained locations and jargon folks. I'm currently trying to write an article on the PRR in Cincinnati for the Keystone. Hopefully, some of this will make more sense when developed in the article. If you can't wait, consult Carl Condit's The Railroad and the City for more detail than you ever dreamed of. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.8e0d958.2b6effa5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/03 10:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:27:34 EST
   From: RGAST2@aol.com
Subject: Cincinnati Question

Since CUT opened, didn't all Pennsy passenger trains into Cincinnati use the
Norwood connection, thence the B&O down through Ivorydale Junction to CUT?


True - PRR trains from Columbus and from Richmond (and N&W trains from Portsmouth) used OAKLEY to reach the Norwood connection, entering the B&O at the east end of EAST NORWOOD interlocking.


A friend and I got to wondering this week if PRR didn't have a way to get
from  Undercliff into the south end of CUT.  I said I didn't think they had a
direct way, but still could saw through if they ever had to.  Does anyone
know for sure?  Did PRR passenger trains ever have to run via Undercliff,
either regularly or as a detour?

Jeff  


Jeff, Chad, et al,

Before CUT opened, there's evidence that drafts of sleepers (and maybe headend equipment) were shuttled among the 5 or 7 or whatever predecessor passenger stations.  Some MAY have been via the PRR's Cincinnati Street Connecting Railway you refer to, although this is a lot of street running.

If you'd ever watched PRR freight transfers or DT&I DC-7/DC-6 crawling in Front Street across the waterfront at Cincinnati (west of Undercliff, OASIS, and the site of former PRR Pearl Street Station), dodging autos and trucks and lots of industry switches, you would understand why CSCRy would be a very undesirable route for passenger trains.  

There were many interconnectons along Cincinnati's west waterfront to B&O, Southern, Big Four, and C&O.  However, like you I'm not aware of any that would lead a movement off the CSCRy to CUT without any backing.  Backing from Storrs Yard on the B&O onto the CUT southwest connector, or backing up off the NYC ditch track at Wood Street onto the C&O bridge to reach the southeast connector would make this evolution even more unattractive.  In fact, the Wood Street maneuver would be something like switchbacking the Cincinnati Limited across Rollins Pass (the "Giant's Ladder" was of course replaced by Moffatt Tunnel).

I'm not saying they NEVER did this (although I've never heard of it before, and no author I know gives this theory a whirl).  I'm just saying it would be a lot worse than, say, detouring via Dayton down the New York Central to Ivorydale Junction, or detouring via B&O's Toledo Division/CH&D from Hamilton.  Those are emergency diversions that make good operating sense.

BTW -- forgive all the unexplained locations and jargon folks.  I'm currently trying to write an article on the PRR in Cincinnati for the Keystone.  Hopefully, some of this will make more sense when developed in the article.

If you can't wait, consult Carl Condit's The Railroad and the City for more detail than you ever dreamed of.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.8e0d958.2b6effa5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:07:38 -0600 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Coil-Leaf Trucks Re Evan Leisey's question concerning coil-leaf trucks. This is style 2D-F12. Sunshine did in fact make this truck. Its fresh in my mind because I just finished an X-26C boxcar by Sunshine. The kit included these trucks. I haven't a clue whether they are still available -- I've had the kit on the shelf for about five years. Now that its finished, its a great looking boxcar!! Sunshine's directions report that the V-9306 sideframe was made by Pennsy, and used on the 2D-F8, F12, and F19 trucks. The idea of the coil-leaf design was to reduce harmonic oscillation. However, after WWII, the leaf springs slowly gave way to twin coil springs. This made the 2D-F12 look identical to the 2D-F8 (which is available from Kadee). chuck Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:02:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks --part1_1c4.46c4fac.2b6f27c5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: Bowser makes these trucks part number 74190 $2.75 a pair. If I recall correctly Tichy also makes a version. I think the Tichy nad Bowser differ in the orientation of the coil and leaf springs. Rich Orr --part1_1c4.46c4fac.2b6f27c5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All:

Bowser makes these trucks part number 74190  $2.75 a pair.  If I recall correctly Tichy also makes a version.  I think the Tichy nad Bowser differ in the orientation of the coil and leaf springs.

Rich Orr --part1_1c4.46c4fac.2b6f27c5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:22:33 -0500 Richard, You already have an answer to part (2), so here is part (1): The former PRR number and class for CR 46152 are 477117, class N5. An outline of the history of the car follows. The Class N5 cabin car was built in Altoona on 2-1-1917, given number 487118, and assigned to the Northern Grand Division. It was renumbered to 477117 on 5-14-1920 at Venango. It was shopped at Olean on 3-2-1923. On 1-7-1926 it had an air brake pressure gauge installed at Renovo. The equipment boxes were removed on 2-27-1926 at Renovo. Two Sherburne alarm whistles and emergency brake valves were installed on 3-16-1926 at Renovo. On 10-15-1926 the "old style" couplers were replaced by ARA Type D couplers at Renovo. The cast iron wheels on axles 1 and 2 were replaced by one-wear wrought steel wheels at Renovo on 7-10-1931. Those on axles 3 and 4 were replaced on 10-3-1931 at Buffalo. Brake beam safety supports were added on 2-27-1936 at Pitcairn. On 4-10-1943 at Erie Car Shops the 2A-F1 archbar trucks were replaced by 2A-F3 trucks and the wheels were replaced by new one-wear wrought steel wheels. The KD 1012 air brake system was replaced by AB brakes on 4-29-1943 at Erie Car Shops. The Type D couplers were replaced by Type E couplers on 10-25-1943 at Erie. On 4-27-1950 at Altoona Car Shops the vertical staff hand brakes were replaced by Equipco power hand brakes. Collision posts were added. New Type E couplers were applied with Edgewater draft gear. The end hand rails were raised to 48". An air brake release mechanism was installed. The composition flooring was replaced by maple flooring. And, the single flat wick oil lamp was replaced by two round wick oil lamps. In the 5-15-1957 System Cabin Car Assignments list, N5 477117 is assigned to the Northern Region, Warren Ridgeway RW-2. The 5-3-1974 Penn Central Caboose Directory shows that PC 19330 was former PRR 477117. By this time it had 2A-F5 trucks, a 12 volt electrical system, screened cupola windows, screen doors, oil heat and a toilet. It was in yard only service and had last been shopped on 8-23-1971. The 6-6-1981 Conrail Caboose Directory shows that CR 46152 was former PC 19330 and was listed as work equipment. If anyone can add further details to this car's history, I would be pleased to hear about it. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Poole" > Gentlemen, > > I have two requests involving the N-5b cabooses: > > (1) KENNY KING bought a N-5? from CONRAIL and has it on a piece of track in his yard in LATROBE, PA. It has a CR number on it . . . CR 46152. He is building a 1.6 scale model of this caboose and would like to number his model the PRR number of the CR 46152. Can anyone, please cross-reference this CR number and give me the PRR number for this caboose and the class? I have to get the lettering before FEBRUARY 7th, so I need this information ASAP! If you have any history connected with this caboose, he would like to have it too! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:08:14 -0500 That cabin car is sort of like Caesar's Axe. Its on its third handle and fourth head!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:23 PM To: dpoole17@PAnetwork.com; PRR TALK Subject: Re: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Richard, You already have an answer to part (2), so here is part (1): The former PRR number and class for CR 46152 are 477117, class N5. An outline of the history of the car follows. The Class N5 cabin car was built in Altoona on 2-1-1917, given number 487118, and assigned to the Northern Grand Division. It was renumbered to 477117 on 5-14-1920 at Venango. It was shopped at Olean on 3-2-1923. On 1-7-1926 it had an air brake pressure gauge installed at Renovo. The equipment boxes were removed on 2-27-1926 at Renovo. Two Sherburne alarm whistles and emergency brake valves were installed on 3-16-1926 at Renovo. On 10-15-1926 the "old style" couplers were replaced by ARA Type D couplers at Renovo. The cast iron wheels on axles 1 and 2 were replaced by one-wear wrought steel wheels at Renovo on 7-10-1931. Those on axles 3 and 4 were replaced on 10-3-1931 at Buffalo. Brake beam safety supports were added on 2-27-1936 at Pitcairn. On 4-10-1943 at Erie Car Shops the 2A-F1 archbar trucks were replaced by 2A-F3 trucks and the wheels were replaced by new one-wear wrought steel wheels. The KD 1012 air brake system was replaced by AB brakes on 4-29-1943 at Erie Car Shops. The Type D couplers were replaced by Type E couplers on 10-25-1943 at Erie. On 4-27-1950 at Altoona Car Shops the vertical staff hand brakes were replaced by Equipco power hand brakes. Collision posts were added. New Type E couplers were applied with Edgewater draft gear. The end hand rails were raised to 48". An air brake release mechanism was installed. The composition flooring was replaced by maple flooring. And, the single flat wick oil lamp was replaced by two round wick oil lamps. In the 5-15-1957 System Cabin Car Assignments list, N5 477117 is assigned to the Northern Region, Warren Ridgeway RW-2. The 5-3-1974 Penn Central Caboose Directory shows that PC 19330 was former PRR 477117. By this time it had 2A-F5 trucks, a 12 volt electrical system, screened cupola windows, screen doors, oil heat and a toilet. It was in yard only service and had last been shopped on 8-23-1971. The 6-6-1981 Conrail Caboose Directory shows that CR 46152 was former PC 19330 and was listed as work equipment. If anyone can add further details to this car's history, I would be pleased to hear about it. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Poole" > Gentlemen, > > I have two requests involving the N-5b cabooses: > > (1) KENNY KING bought a N-5? from CONRAIL and has it on a piece > of track in his yard in LATROBE, PA. It has a CR number on it . . . CR 46152. He is building a 1.6 scale model of this caboose and would like to number his model the PRR number of the CR 46152. Can anyone, please cross-reference this CR number and give me the PRR number for this caboose and the class? I have to get the lettering before FEBRUARY 7th, so I need this information ASAP! If you have any history connected with this caboose, he would like to have it too! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore traffic questions Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:13:14 -0500 Bobspf wrote: >>>>Second, would there be a reasonable expectation in 1961 that a shark lashup could pull the Pennsy cars? Bill Replies: I would say they (the changes) were pretty good, since almost the entire fleet was still operable, minus the three (ABA set)that were stored at 12th St. Shop in Altoona awaiting rebuild at Schnectady to Alco prime movers. I think 1961 was the year that the work was done because they scrapped the idea and bought the DL640s in 1962. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 7:02 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Ore traffic questions The announcement of the G39 from Stewart raises a few questions. I have also seen leased DM&IR jennies on the Pennsy. Were they ever run mixed with G38s and G39s? What year were they leased? Second, would there be a reasonable expectation in 1961 that a shark lashup could pull the Pennsy cars? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:03:24 -0600 From: Frederick Ripley Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic to Toledo The discussion of PRR ore jennies reminds me of an article about the PRR's ore traffic in "Trains" around 1960. Included was a map of the routes of showed of regular ore traffic. The route furthest west on the system was from Toledo to the east. Does anyone remember these trains? (Toledo-Carrothers-Bucyrus, then east on the Ft. Wayne main line). I am curious if they used ore jennies, or regular hoppers as some PRR ore trains seemed to. Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:20:58 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coil-Leaf Trucks The 2D-F12 is also available from Bowser. They put them under their X31s. They also sell just the sideframes so you could put Reboxx wheels in them. I've done this for many of my X29s. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Chuck Bowman wrote: > Re Evan Leisey's question concerning coil-leaf trucks. This is style > 2D-F12. Sunshine did in fact make this truck. Its fresh in my mind > because I just finished an X-26C boxcar by Sunshine. The kit included > these trucks. I haven't a clue whether they are still available -- I've > had the kit on the shelf for about five years. Now that its finished, its > a great looking boxcar!! > > Sunshine's directions report that the V-9306 sideframe was made by Pennsy, > and used on the 2D-F8, F12, and F19 trucks. The idea of the coil-leaf > design was to reduce harmonic oscillation. However, after WWII, the leaf > springs slowly gave way to twin coil springs. This made the 2D-F12 look > identical to the 2D-F8 (which is available from Kadee). > > chuck > > Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 > Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 > 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 > College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Amherst Show Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:52:49 -0500 Listers, I was already beaten to the punch about the G39's at the Amherst show, but no one has mentioned the DCC uncouplers coming from Tony's Train Exchange. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:09:24 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBAF.623570E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; I think you may be being too hard on yourselves. The truth is, that you can probably develop sessions for different years with not much difficulty. Granted, you may have repack dates on your cars that won't match up with earlier or later dates, but who can tell anyway on a moving train! You will, in all likelihood, be the only person who would notice! You can swap out cars, engines, automobiles, billboards, and other details, to change your era convincingly, at least within a five years period or so. I went through this all a number of years ago. My solution was to figure out exactly what I needed to change out to make the switch from year to year. It gives me the option of changing the year, year-by-year, to allow me to phase out early freight cars and diesels, and introduce new ones in their stead. I can change a couple billboards, change a few autos on the layout, take a few H21s, GSs, X29s off, and add a couple G41s and later boxcars, and voila! No, I can't model 1957 or 1967, as those safety ladders and Trainphones can't come off, but who says that you have to have all your equipment on the layout all the time, anyway! Best of the day, Elden P.S. And Rick, I can't believe you wouldn't want to have at least one session with the Lima Transfers running around! -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR@egroups.com Subject: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes From: Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST --part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry: The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin car arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings: Shadow Keystone ND, NDA, N6, N6B drawing date 1-5-56 N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F drawing stged 12-8-55 N8 drawing 12-15-55 All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61 Rich Orr True -- To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b. Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.). Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone. There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially. However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along. There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday. Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all. Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's. And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing. I know you picked 1954 for good reason. But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars). This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts... Best wishes, Rick Tipton Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout. You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBAF.623570E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all;  I think you may be being too hard on yourselves.  The truth is, that you can probably develop sessions for different years with not much difficulty.  Granted, you may have repack dates on your cars that won't match up with earlier or later dates, but who can tell anyway on a moving train!  You will, in all likelihood, be the only person who would notice!  You can swap out cars, engines, automobiles, billboards, and other details, to change your era convincingly, at least within a five years period or so.
I went through this all a number of years ago.  My solution was to figure out exactly what I needed to change out to make the switch from year to year.  It gives me the option of changing the year, year-by-year, to allow me to phase out early freight cars and diesels, and introduce new ones in their stead.
I can change a couple billboards, change a few autos on the layout, take a few H21s, GSs, X29s off, and add a couple G41s and later boxcars, and voila!
No, I can't model 1957 or 1967, as those safety ladders and Trainphones can't come off, but who says that you have to have all your equipment on the layout all the time, anyway!
Best of the day,
Elden
P.S. And Rick,  I can't believe you wouldn't want to have at least one session with the Lima Transfers running around!
-----Original Message-----
From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:15 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR@egroups.com
Subject: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b

In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes
From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST


--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jerry:

The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin
car  arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings:

Shadow Keystone
ND, NDA, N6, N6B         drawing date 1-5-56
N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F   drawing stged 12-8-55
N8   drawing 12-15-55

All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK

Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61

Rich Orr



True --

To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b.  Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.).

Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone.  There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially.  However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along.

There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday.

Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all.   Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's.  And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing.

I know you picked 1954 for good reason.  But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars).  This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts...

Best wishes,

Rick Tipton
Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout.  You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBAF.623570E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:43:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic --part1_c.8f24875.2b702e5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/3/03 9:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, frederick.ripley@murraystate.edu writes: > The route furthestest on the system was from Toledo to the east. > > See photos of "Sharks" and "Jennies" moving east, over "Bridge # 1" from > "Whiskey" island on NYC tracks in a Keystone article on the C&P docks. (One > of the photos is, I believe, mislabeled as westbound) > I also believe that these trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights > to Ashtabula, the B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore > jennies were often stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the > convention center and south of the stadium) > Ore trains also went SE, via Alliance and the C&P - but these were mostly > in hopper trains - going south to bring coal back up to the C&P rotary > dumper. > > Related question - when did the "Jennies" start to get their furry, > insulated coating? > > Dick --part1_c.8f24875.2b702e5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/3/03= 9:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, frederick.ripley@murraystate.edu writes:<= BR>

The route furthestest on the sy= stem was from Toledo to the east.

See photos of "Sharks" and "Jennies" moving east, over "Bridge # 1" from "Wh= iskey" island on NYC tracks in a Keystone article on the C&P docks. (One= of the photos is, I believe, mislabeled as westbound)


I also believe that these train= s mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the B&LE or=20= perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often stored on tra= cks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center and south of the=20= stadium)
Ore trains also went SE, via Alliance and the C&P - but these were mostl= y in hopper trains - going south to bring coal back up to the C&P rotary= dumper.

Related question - when did the "Jennies" start to get their furry, insulate= d coating?

Dick


--part1_c.8f24875.2b702e5b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Capt. ER Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 21:47:42 +0000 Does anyone have an E mail address for John Teichmoeller or know the source of the plan of the ER that appeared in the Keystone several years ago? I'd like to get a bigger more legible copy for modeling purposes. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:04:15 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_NB1F3SahtfKizFgePCzaGA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding the previously posted comment> I also believe that these trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center and south of the stadium) Be advised that ex-lake ore unloaded at PRR docks at: Cleveland went east on the C&P Ashtabula went east on the PY&A Erie went east on the E&P or P&E It would be very highly unlikely for ore unloaded at any of the above PRR docks to go anywhere on the NYC. However, ex-Lake ore unloaded at Conneaut on the B&LE was interchanged to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P for movement to Sharon, Sharpsville and Youngstown. Al --Boundary_(ID_NB1F3SahtfKizFgePCzaGA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Regarding the previously posted comment> I also believe that these trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center and south of the stadium)
 
 
Be advised that ex-lake ore unloaded at PRR docks at:
Cleveland went east on the C&P
Ashtabula went east on the PY&A
Erie went east on the E&P or P&E
 
It would be very highly unlikely for ore unloaded at any of the above PRR docks to go anywhere on the NYC.
 
However, ex-Lake ore unloaded at Conneaut on the B&LE was interchanged to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P for movement to Sharon, Sharpsville and Youngstown.
 
Al
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_NB1F3SahtfKizFgePCzaGA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:25:20 +0000 I have some pictures of insulated PRR ore cars descending the curve in the late 60's or more probably the early 70's. I assume these would have been in ore transfer service between one of the Pittsburgh USS plants and heading for Fairless works? Norm Bell > Regarding the previously posted comment> I also believe that these > trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the > B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often > stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center > and south of the stadium) > > > > Be advised that ex-lake ore unloaded at PRR docks at: > Cleveland went east on the C&P > Ashtabula went east on the PY&A > Erie went east on the E&P or P&E > > It would be very highly unlikely for ore unloaded at any of the above > PRR docks to go anywhere on the NYC. > > However, ex-Lake ore unloaded at Conneaut on the B&LE was interchanged > to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P for movement to Sharon, Sharpsville > and Youngstown. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations --0-1938729542-1044312082=:98629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? Now th P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1938729542-1044312082=:98629 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR.  I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers.  What about equipment?  Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis?  What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations?  I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services.  How were such passengers handled?  If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds",

P.S.  I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question.  I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads.

 


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1938729542-1044312082=:98629-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:56:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Not only were the station waiting rooms segregated, so were the rest rooms and in some cases water fountains. Al [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:53:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Re the comment: I have some pictures of insulated PRR ore cars descending the curve in the late 60's or more probably the early 70's. I assume these would have been in ore transfer service between one of the Pittsburgh USS plants and heading for Fairless works? First question is can you determine if they are really loaded with ore (check the springs)? Typically the eastward movement of ore jennies on the curve would have been mtys returning to Pier 122 in PHL for loading of South American ore for return movement to the Pittsburgh area. Fairless typically got its ore from its own docks at the Fairless works. Some may have been lightered at PHL for movement to Fairless to allow the ships to navigate the Delaware River upper channels. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:56:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0jBXyDEIHizT3OQoIwlh+Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Not only were the station waiting rooms segregated, so were the rest rooms and in some cases water fountains. Al --Boundary_(ID_0jBXyDEIHizT3OQoIwlh+Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Not only were the station waiting rooms segregated, so were the rest rooms and in some cases water fountains.
 
Al
 
--Boundary_(ID_0jBXyDEIHizT3OQoIwlh+Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:59:44 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBD7.F1161A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Norm, If those cars are full, it indicates a rather unusual situation, as I think most of us believed that the ore traffic was primarily going west from South Philly to Pgh and eastern Ohio blast furnaces (at least between Philly and Pittsburgh on the main line). The traffic I remember seeing was coming into Pitcairn or Conway from the east, getting reclassified to locals, and ending up at Edgar Thomson, Duquesne or Homestead (Carrie Furnaces) of USS, possibly also J&L Pittsburgh, although I do not know for sure on this last part. I understand some went further west to Weirton and elsewhere. I never saw an additional part of this traffic, and I do not know how this was done and on what ore source, but some ore went to Saxonburg for sintering, so would have been diverted off the main onto the Conemaugh at some point. I also do remember that a lot of ore that came up the Monongahela was already pelletized, both in regular hoppers and ore cars (G38/39). The pellets were always scattered all over the right-of-way, providing the look of red speckles in the otherwise grey (or black) ballast. At least one car in a train seemed to be "bleeding" pellets. You had to watch out with standing too close to the tracks when these went by, as those pellets hurt! Even the ore cars bled, as the G38's had those holes in them. I believe that most of the pellets came from Ashtabula or somewhere else on the lakes, as the stuff coming in from the east was (I think!) powdery. I think I am just guessing, but wouldn't Fairless have utilized Venezuelan ore by the time the ore cars became available? Due to the shorter distance from Philly? Just a guess! Elden P.S. I need someone to provide more info on this, but my memory is that there were very few of the insulated cars during the PRR years. I only remember a few in a sea of uninsulated cars. Is this just my selective memory? -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:25 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBD7.F1161A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic

Norm,  If those cars are full, it indicates a = rather unusual situation, as I think most of us believed that the ore = traffic was primarily going west from South Philly to Pgh and eastern = Ohio blast furnaces (at least between Philly and Pittsburgh on the main = line).  The traffic I remember seeing was coming into Pitcairn or = Conway from the east, getting reclassified to locals, and ending up at = Edgar Thomson, Duquesne or Homestead (Carrie Furnaces) of USS, possibly = also J&L Pittsburgh, although I do not know for sure on this last = part.  I understand some went further west to Weirton and = elsewhere.  I never saw an additional part of this traffic, and I = do not know how this was done and on what ore source, but some ore went = to Saxonburg for sintering, so would have been diverted off the main = onto the Conemaugh at some point.  I also do remember that a lot = of ore that came up the Monongahela was already pelletized, both in = regular hoppers and ore cars (G38/39).  The pellets were always = scattered all over the right-of-way, providing the look of red speckles = in the otherwise grey (or black) ballast. At least one car in a train = seemed to be "bleeding" pellets.  You had to watch out = with standing too close to the tracks when these went by, as those = pellets hurt!  Even the ore cars bled, as the G38's had those = holes in them.  I believe that most of the pellets came from = Ashtabula or somewhere else on the lakes, as the stuff coming in from = the east was (I think!) powdery.  I think I am just guessing, but = wouldn't Fairless have utilized Venezuelan ore by the time the ore cars = became available?  Due to the shorter distance from Philly?  = Just a guess!

Elden
P.S. I need someone to provide more info on this, = but my memory is that there were very few of the insulated cars during = the PRR years.  I only remember a few in a sea of uninsulated = cars.  Is this just my selective memory?

-----Original Message-----
From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:25 PM
To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic



------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBD7.F1161A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:03:36 -0800 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations I believe there was some interesting writings about this the the PRRTHS Keystone or Philadelphia Chapter Highline specifically related to the line to Winchester VA Bennett Levin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Di Orio To: MoPac HS ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:03:36 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0911_01C2CB95.6DA2B2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe there was some interesting writings about this the the PRRTHS = Keystone or Philadelphia Chapter Highline specifically related to the = line to Winchester VA Bennett Levin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: MoPac HS ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably = more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were = separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for = "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there = separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where = cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the = bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't = know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but = there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required = Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate = coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked = in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was = used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds",=20 P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to = be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or = create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in = any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation = on the railroads. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_0911_01C2CB95.6DA2B2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe there was some interesting = writings about=20 this the the PRRTHS Keystone or Philadelphia Chapter Highline = specifically=20 related to the line to Winchester VA
 
Bennett Levin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
To: MoPac HS ; PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 = 2:41=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Segregation and = Passenger=20 Accomodations

Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while = probably more=20 appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the=20 PRR.  I know that in the days of segregation there were separate = waiting=20 rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and = "colored"=20 passengers.  What about equipment?  Were there separate = coaches for=20 white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south=20 segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis?  = What=20 about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations?  I don't know if = there was=20 enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be = some=20 travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services.  = How were=20 such passengers handled?  If separate coaches/sleepers were = assigned to=20 "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently = or=20 temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always = assigned only=20 to "coloreds",=20

P.S.  I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those = seem to=20 be correct for the period in question.  I have no desire to = offend or=20 create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro",=20 "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any=20 socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on = the=20 railroads.

 


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Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_0911_01C2CB95.6DA2B2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? Now the question as it effects the PRR. On through sleepers to southern destinations originating on the PRR, what was the policy? As I previously stated, an unusual topic but I would like to find some direction in getting answers. Ron P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] P-54 and X42 Thanks to all those who sent on information on my queries. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] P-54 and X42 --0-228668470-1044314757=:13400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all those who sent on information on my queries. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-228668470-1044314757=:13400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all those who sent on information on my queries.  Ron


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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-228668470-1044314757=:13400-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:26:07 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_rA31ee7PmOtrBvVX5JrR0g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Elden, et al., I don't believe too many of the Jennies got the foam protection. Al --Boundary_(ID_rA31ee7PmOtrBvVX5JrR0g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Elden, et al.,
 
I don't believe too many of the Jennies got the foam protection.
 
Al


--Boundary_(ID_rA31ee7PmOtrBvVX5JrR0g)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:24:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic In a message dated 2/3/03 5:09:30 PM Central Standard Time, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: << was already pelletized, both in regular hoppers and ore cars (G38/39). The pellets were always scattered all over the right-of-way, providing the look of red speckles in the otherwise grey (or black) ballast. >> I have a question about the color. The pellets I have seen looked more gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red color? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:35:47 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBE5.5C666940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob, The ones I have at home are red with a partial brown (oxidized?) coating. They clearly look red to me, as that is how I spotted them when picking them up off the roadbed. I now wish I had picked up more! And some coke to go with it( the other detritus worth going after)! I'd like to see some of the other ones and the story behind all of them. Plus, the insides of the ore jennies were redder than any car I've ever seen....Have you seen that overhead in vol3 of the Morning Sun PRR freight series? Wow! Best, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:24 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBE5.5C666940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic

Bob,  The ones I have at home are red with a = partial brown (oxidized?) coating.  They clearly look red to me, = as that is how I spotted them when picking them up off the = roadbed.  I now wish I had picked up more!  And some coke to = go with it( the other detritus worth going after)!  I'd like to = see some of the other ones and the story behind all of them.  = Plus, the insides of the ore jennies were redder than any car I've ever = seen....Have you seen that overhead in vol3 of the Morning Sun PRR = freight series?  Wow!

Best,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:24 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic



------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBE5.5C666940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 20:42:11 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Dear Ronald and Group, I'm not familiar with how things worked on the PRR or other "northern" railroads whose systems extended into states where the "Jim Crow" laws applied. But, on many southern railroads, "colored" passengers were indeed seated in separate coaches, or in separate sections of coaches. For example, GM&N's "Rebel" streamliner included a "Jim Crow" buffet-coach. Whether the railroad management approved or not (it must have created its share of operational difficulties), sadly, it was the law. I notice this message has been cross-posted to the MoPac Historical Society Yahoo list. I imagine that members of that list will be more familiar with operations in the segregated south, since it was MoPac's home territory. On the bright side, the railroads did provide employment opportunities for many African-American men, in an era when few other opportunities were available. James Porterfield's "Dining by Rail" provides some interesting insights. Although the more desirable positions were still reserved for whites in many cases, experienced black cooks could be promoted to chef on railroads that were willing or able to do so. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] segeration Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:21:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CBC1.E07B5160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember riding the Train from Philadelphia, Pa. to Salisbury, MD to = spend the Summer with my Uncle and Aunt in Ocean City, MD. and when we = would leave the station around Delmar, the Conductor walked thru the = cars and would announce Jim Crow Car to the rear. All Colored Folks to = the last car!! Hell I didn't know any better when I was a kid and I played many a trip = with the Black Kids in the car before the Jim Crow Car announcement. And = life goes on. Lee Burbage USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader also. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CBC1.E07B5160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I remember riding the Train from Philadelphia, Pa. to Salisbury, MD = to=20 spend the Summer with my Uncle and Aunt in Ocean City, MD. and when we = would=20 leave the station around Delmar, the Conductor walked thru the cars and = would=20 announce Jim Crow Car to the rear. All Colored Folks to the last = car!!
 
Hell I didn't know any better when I was a kid and I played many a = trip=20 with the Black Kids in the car before the Jim Crow Car announcement. And = life=20 goes on.
 
 
Lee Burbage
USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader also.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CBC1.E07B5160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:33:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 4:53:16 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? >> My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963 when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being told that that was the "Negro" locker room. If you are interested in this subject from a research point of view, you may want to check some recent black authors. I remember a review of a book by a black author telling about how, when a boy, he and his family went on vacation in the South. There were specific places that were not hostile to northern blacks and they planned the trips around these places. There also has to be some material from Randolph's Sleeping Car Porters, some of whom may have been more hostile to black first class passengers than white railroad employees. Both the Red Caps and Sleeping Car Porters groups were all black. Both jobs were unusual in that they paid well. I'm certain that there are books/articles that describe the situation before, during, and after the war. But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried in brown paper bags. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:36:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 7:42:50 PM Central Standard Time, LAMAassoc@aol.com writes: << In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. >> I dont know about the railroads, but at least in Chicago, there were separate facilities for the races in many locations. In college, I interviewed for a summer job in about 1957 at a steel foundry which had separate toilet and shower facilities. Not the only example there. I note that the January 2003 issue of Mainline Modeler plan for a KCS "divided coach" doesn't mention its purpose. Smoking/nonsmoking or a Jim Crow car, I don't know. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:42:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2CBCD.2E913E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, I am going to give my observations as a former PRR employee who worked = in the Traffic Department in a Southern city (New Orleans) before = passage of the civil rights legislation of the mid-1960's that outlawed = segregation in interstate passenger accomodations. First, where there was more than one coach on a train, a separate coach = for "coloreds" was furnished, unless there were too few to even half = fill a coach. In that case, a "Jim Crow" coach was furnished that was = divided into three sections - two large ones at the ends and one in the = middle that contained only four seats (seated 8), which was usually used = by the crew. Rode in one of these cars (a former N&W) in Mexico, that = had been divided into one half "primera clase" and one half "segunda = clase".. There were also many combines in the South where the baggage = compartment was in the middle and the races sat at either end. Now, as to how the PRR handled this on trains to and from the South. The = Southerner, for example, was a through train from New York to New = Orleans and carried through coaches and Pullmans. If someone in New = Orleans was making a round trip to New York (or Philly, etc.), New = Orleans Union Passenger Terminal would call the PRR office and we would = teletype New York, which held the Southbound space. Since the states = where the train originated frowned upon seqregation, but it was the law = in the South, the clerks at the Terminal would let us know subtly if the = passengers were "colored" and we would make reservations for = "xpassenger".. When using the teletype, it was difficult to back space, = and you could only retype a spacebar whick opened all the holes in the = tape, so "x"'s were often used for corrections, but never before the = word "passenger" as that had a definite meaning. "Xpassengers" = magically ended up in the coach that became the "colored" car once the = trains were South of Washington. In New Orleans, the streetcars had holes in the top of the reversible = wooden seats where a sign was placed "For our colored patrons only". = These could be moved depending on the number of folks of each race in = the car. Enogh recollection of an era we're not particularly pround of. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: MoPac HS ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably = more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were = separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for = "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there = separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where = cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the = bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't = know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but = there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required = Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate = coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked = in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was = used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds",=20 P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to = be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or = create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in = any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation = on the railroads. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2CBCD.2E913E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,
 
I am going to give my observations as a former PRR = employee=20 who worked in the Traffic Department in a Southern city (New Orleans) = before=20 passage of the civil rights legislation of the mid-1960's that outlawed=20 segregation in interstate passenger accomodations.
 
First, where there was more than one coach on a = train, a=20 separate coach for "coloreds" was furnished, unless there were too few = to even=20 half fill a coach. In that case, a "Jim Crow" coach was furnished that = was=20 divided into three sections - two large ones at the ends and one in the = middle=20 that contained only four seats (seated 8), which was usually used by the = crew.=20 Rode in one of these cars (a former N&W) in Mexico, that had been = divided=20 into one half "primera clase" and one half "segunda clase".. There were = also=20 many combines in the South where the baggage compartment was in the = middle and=20 the races sat at either end.
 
Now, as to how the PRR handled this on trains to and = from the=20 South. The Southerner, for example, was a through train from New York to = New=20 Orleans and carried through coaches and Pullmans. If someone in New = Orleans was=20 making a round trip to New York (or Philly, etc.),  New Orleans = Union=20 Passenger Terminal would call the PRR office and we would teletype New = York,=20 which held the Southbound space. Since the states where the train=20 originated frowned upon seqregation, but it was the law in the South, = the clerks=20 at the Terminal would let us know subtly if the passengers were = "colored" and we=20 would make reservations for "xpassenger".. When using the teletype, it = was=20 difficult to back space, and you could only retype a spacebar whick = opened=20 all the holes in the tape, so "x"'s were often used for corrections, but = never=20 before the word "passenger" as that had a definite = meaning.  "Xpassengers" magically ended up in the coach that became the = "colored"=20 car once the trains were South of Washington.
 
In New Orleans, the streetcars had holes in the top = of the=20 reversible wooden seats where a sign was placed "For our colored patrons = only".=20 These could be moved depending on the number of folks of each race in = the=20 car.
 
Enogh recollection of an era we're not particularly = pround=20 of.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
To: MoPac HS ; PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 = 5:41=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Segregation and = Passenger=20 Accomodations

Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while = probably more=20 appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the=20 PRR.  I know that in the days of segregation there were separate = waiting=20 rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and = "colored"=20 passengers.  What about equipment?  Were there separate = coaches for=20 white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south=20 segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis?  = What=20 about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations?  I don't know if = there was=20 enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be = some=20 travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services.  = How were=20 such passengers handled?  If separate coaches/sleepers were = assigned to=20 "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently = or=20 temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always = assigned only=20 to "coloreds",=20

P.S.  I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those = seem to=20 be correct for the period in question.  I have no desire to = offend or=20 create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro",=20 "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any=20 socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on = the=20 railroads.

 


Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2CBCD.2E913E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bbreynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:52:32 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Marty wrote: >But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted >their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a >train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P >to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC >referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both >directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but >simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried >in brown paper bags. This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with the subject header being Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad? initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks). My contribution to the thread was as follows: "Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach. I would see it coming south through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local to New Brunswick. Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme. Will try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the folks to that particular car in NYC". It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu. A quick google under groups will get the full thread. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:52:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations --part1_68.2c8eea11.2b7084f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Marty wrote: >But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted >their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a >train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P >to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC >referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both >directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but >simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried >in brown paper bags. This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with the subject header being Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad? initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks). My contribution to the thread was as follows: "Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach. I would see it coming south through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local to New Brunswick. Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme. Will try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the folks to that particular car in NYC". It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu. A quick google under groups will get the full thread. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_68.2c8eea11.2b7084f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Marty wrote:

>But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted
>their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a
>train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P
>to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC
>referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both
>directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but
>simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried
>in brown paper bags.

This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with
the subject header being

Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad?

initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks).

My contribution to the thread was as follows:

"Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach.  I would see it coming south through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local to New Brunswick.  Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme.  Will try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the folks to that particular car in NYC".

It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu.

A quick google under groups will get the full thread.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_68.2c8eea11.2b7084f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:25:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accommodations Greetings to Jerry, the List and all who posted on this topic: The term "divided coach" was very definitely a euphemism for "Jim Crow car." Another sugar-coated term for the same thing was "partition coach." If you scan old timetables of Southern roads, carefully examining the equipment lists, you can sometimes find these terms. I've found them in Seaboard, Central of Georgia, and Florida East Coast timetables, although the practice extended well beyond those three roads. The CofG was particularly aggressive on this issue, proudly proclaiming (in the Official Guide, no less) that its postwar diesel-powered Nancy Hanks all-coach streamliner offered accommodations thus: "Seats for white passengers reserved."(Nov. 1950, p.664). The North Carolina Transportation Museum at Spencer has in its collection a streamlined divided coach (I think ex-Southern Ry.), which it uses to interpret the issue of civil rights to visitors. PRR, of course, was officially nonsegregated but some of its direct operations did touch the South, i.e., the Cumberland Valley Railroad into Virginia, thus implying a conflict with state laws requiring separate accommodations. Westhaeffer's history of that road, which is otherwise comprehensive, is silent on the issue. N&W, which was controlled by PRR, posted regulations in the cabooses of its mixed trains that governed how passengers were to be seated. These posters quickly disappeared after passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/3/03 7:42:50 PM Central Standard Time, LAMAassoc@aol.com > writes: > > << In the North, in NYC and Philly and > Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. >> > > I dont know about the railroads, but at least in Chicago, there were separate > facilities for the races in many locations. In college, I interviewed for a > summer job in about 1957 at a steel foundry which had separate toilet and > shower facilities. Not the only example there. > > I note that the January 2003 issue of Mainline Modeler plan for a KCS > "divided coach" doesn't mention its purpose. Smoking/nonsmoking or a Jim > Crow car, I don't know. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:48:07 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations The Crescent "Green" scheme was long gone by the 1960's. Southern's cars were usually Budd and Pullman postwar lightweights. The train would sometimes use rebuilt heavyweight coaches that were painted a dark green, but this was not the famous Crescent two-tone green. John Ryan BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern > Standard Time, Marty wrote: > > >But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply > adapted > >their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in > NYC, a > >train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times > (RF&P > >to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in > NYC > >referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both > >directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but > >simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken > carried > >in brown paper bags. > > This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with > the subject header being > > Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad? > > initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks). > > My contribution to the thread was as follows: > > "Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a > defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach. I would see it coming south > through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local > to New Brunswick. Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in > NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where > they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; > the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches > (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme. Will > try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on > the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the > folks to that particular car in NYC". > > It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu. > > A quick google under groups will get the full thread. > > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:07:17 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Re> The pellets I have seen looked more gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red color? My experience with taconite pellet color is more of a dirty dusty grayish brown-red with a subtle hint of blue-violet maybe. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:02:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic In a message dated 2/3/03 10:07:09 PM Central Standard Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: << My experience with taconite pellet color is more of a dirty dusty grayish brown-red with a subtle hint of blue-violet maybe. >> That is about the color of a few pellets I picked up in the Wisconsin Central repair shop from an Ortner hopper . Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 03:48:37 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Segregation and DelMarVa Many people forget that, before the Civil War, (also known as "the Late Unpleasantness, depending on where you are,) Maryland and Delaware were slave states, with a cultural mind-set not too different from that of Virginia. One suspects that the PRR, although a "Yankee" railroad, followed the local customs to some extent on the DelMarVa peninsula, but to what extent were "Jim Crow" laws and customs observed? Peter Weiglin San Mateo CA (but grew up in N'Yawk) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:12:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Hi Bob, Not all iron ore was from the Missabe Range. One of the richest and oldest operating iron-ore mines in the US was in Cornwall, Pa. The iron ore from that mine was in limestone and it was gray not red. Regards, Nick Kulp I have a question about the color. The pellets I have seen looked more gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red color? Bob Zoeller http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:28:18 -0500 From: "Gluckman, Robert" Subject: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable Does anyone have a current mailing address for Diamond Scale? I need a turntable for Renovo (mandatory PRR content) and would like to order one from them but I can't seem to find the correct address. Bob Gluckman IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database 8*222-2693 (585) 422-2693 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:58:33 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and DelMarVa Delmarva, being mostly MAryland and VirginiA were Jim Crow states with all the evil that implies. I don't know how that affected travel on the Delmarva lines-- I'm not old enough to remember of that era and didn't move here until the mid 70's-- but state laws then required separate, and usually unequal, accommodations. I assume that one of the coaches on the all coach Delmarva trains became a Jim Crow car when the train passed south through Delmar. An article in the C&O HS magazine recently reviewed one of their modern divided cars. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva where there is no passenger service of any sort ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:15:35 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Stolen PRR Items !! Frank Kuhn has advise us of the following: Fellow Members in Early January an ex PRR employee had his collection of PRR items stolen During a Burglary at his home. Here are the following items stolen: 1 milepost # 289 1 oval "Watch out For Locomotive" Sign, and the following Oval Locomotive number Plates: 5201, 650, 7347, 8220, 1071, 1126, 2945, 3723, 4471, 4305 , 4237, 4245. Any Member who comes across or sees for sale at a swap meet or on ebay please report it stolen to the local authorities. Or Contact me at 717-292-0350 . The family of the gentleman are very upset and hope all items can be found. As members of the PRRT&HS lets help them out Thanks, Frank Kuhn PRRT&HS Media Director ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:35:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable From: Eugene Nowlan A new company demonstrated their turntable with superb indexing system at the Amherst Train Show this last weekend. Very well engineered table. The indexing was precise in both directions without the back & forth seek motion of the nearest competitor. Hope you find this of interest, Gene Nowlan > From: "Gluckman, Robert" > Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:28:18 -0500 > To: "'prr-talk@dsop.com'" > Subject: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable > > Does anyone have a current mailing address for Diamond Scale? I need a > turntable for Renovo (mandatory PRR content) and would like to order one > from them but I can't seem to find the correct address. > > Bob Gluckman > IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database > 8*222-2693 > (585) 422-2693 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:10:54 -0600 I have heard the name "Chicken Bone Special" still being applied by AMTRAK employees when referring to coach passengers on the Silver Palm, Meteor, and Star trains. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:34 PM To: prr2249@yahoo.com; MoPacHS@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 4:53:16 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? >> My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963 when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being told that that was the "Negro" locker room. If you are interested in this subject from a research point of view, you may want to check some recent black authors. I remember a review of a book by a black author telling about how, when a boy, he and his family went on vacation in the South. There were specific places that were not hostile to northern blacks and they planned the trips around these places. There also has to be some material from Randolph's Sleeping Car Porters, some of whom may have been more hostile to black first class passengers than white railroad employees. Both the Red Caps and Sleeping Car Porters groups were all black. Both jobs were unusual in that they paid well. I'm certain that there are books/articles that describe the situation before, during, and after the war. But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried in brown paper bags. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:07:39 -0500 Diamond Scale's address is: Diamond Scale Construction 3742 W. Anderson Dr. Glendale, AZ 85308 602-504-8589 One of my customers recently made contact with them at this address. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Gluckman, Robert To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:32 AM Subject: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable >Does anyone have a current mailing address for Diamond Scale? I need a >turntable for Renovo (mandatory PRR content) and would like to order one >from them but I can't seem to find the correct address. > >Bob Gluckman >IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database >8*222-2693 >(585) 422-2693 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:06:44 -0500 If you ever had the task of cleaning the interior of a train at Sunnyside that came from Miami, you would very quickly learn where that name came from, believe me! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:11 AM To: 'LAMAassoc@aol.com'; prr2249@yahoo.com; MoPacHS@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations I have heard the name "Chicken Bone Special" still being applied by AMTRAK employees when referring to coach passengers on the Silver Palm, Meteor, and Star trains. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:34 PM To: prr2249@yahoo.com; MoPacHS@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 4:53:16 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? >> My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963 when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being told that that was the "Negro" locker room. If you are interested in this subject from a research point of view, you may want to check some recent black authors. I remember a review of a book by a black author telling about how, when a boy, he and his family went on vacation in the South. There were specific places that were not hostile to northern blacks and they planned the trips around these places. There also has to be some material from Randolph's Sleeping Car Porters, some of whom may have been more hostile to black first class passengers than white railroad employees. Both the Red Caps and Sleeping Car Porters groups were all black. Both jobs were unusual in that they paid well. I'm certain that there are books/articles that describe the situation before, during, and after the war. But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried in brown paper bags. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:53:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > In a message dated 2/3/03 10:07:09 PM Central Standard Time, > abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: > > << My experience with taconite pellet color is more of a dirty dusty > grayish brown-red with a subtle hint of blue-violet maybe. > >> > > That is about the color of a few pellets I picked up in the Wisconsin > Central repair shop from an Ortner hopper . > > Bob Zoeller > There are a lot of these pellets on the roadbed of the Oil Creek and Titusville (ex-PRR) if anyone in the western Penna area wants some. I picked up a bunch (don't have any idea what I'll do with them) at the Drake Well Station area. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:13:03 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC5F.AA42253A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies. Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC5F.AA42253A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies.
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC5F.AA42253A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:50:47 -0500 From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR (and other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only once, and last year I was surprised to see it documented at the Altoona museum - "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be a Protestant and a Mason", and "I could do something for you but you wear the wrong ring" (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This neatly locked out Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could not get admitted to a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. Two questions: 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago but it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:48:44 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR segregated equipment Hello, everyone, As a follow-up to "Jim Crow" cars on the PRR, the PRR Passenger Equipment Register effective March 1, 1916 indicates two groups of such cars and their usual assigned areas. Class MP-54 (non-electrified) coaches #463-474, under the "special fittings" column, were listed as "partition cars." They are assigned to the Baltimore Division, the Maryland Division, and one to the Pope's Creek line. While no expert, I recall as a kid in pre-civil rights Baltimore that Maryland had many "southern style" segregation practices and this appears to be one example. There were also a few misc. P-class and O- class wooden passenger cars listed as "partition" cars. Also the NYP&N section (a separate part of the equipment register) lists five P-class cars which, in the "special fittings" column, are listed as "Jim Crow." They were assigned to Philly-Cape Charles trains. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:19 -0500 Charles, Graduating from Princeton didn't hurt either. The New York Central favored folks who wore the other ring (Knights of Columbus). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 AM Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees > Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. > > It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited > to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is > discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR (and > other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only once, and > last year I was surprised to see it documented at the Altoona museum - > "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be a Protestant and a > Mason", and "I could do something for you but you wear the wrong ring" > (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This neatly locked out > Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could not get admitted to > a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. > > Two questions: > > 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member > of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was > restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago but > it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? > > 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I scooped up two coffee cans full of the red ore that is still all over the place at the (now closed) ore docks in South Philly. I'm thinking of running it through some screens to get the dirt out and using it as a load in the ore cars. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:29:30 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Greetings to Charles, Jerry and the List: This is a subject that's barely been touched. I'm delighted to hear that someone is reading the panels in the Altoona exhibits. As the historian for that project, I found much more on this topic than could have ever been used in the displays. As part of that research, I deconstructed all PRR entries in the 1940 edition of "Who's Who of Railroading" to trace the background, affiliations, and denomonational preferences of PRR executives. As expected, I found that freemasonry was common among them. One of the biggest centers for this activity was the Jaffa Shrine/Mosque in Altoona, where membership was the key to advancement in PRR management. Even more interesting was the fact that most PRR management types, including many who came up through the ranks of Altoona, were Presbyterians or Episcopalians. In other words, members of church denominations that were (1) Protestant, (2) heavily populated with Anglo-Saxons (English, Welsh, and Scotch-Irish), and (3) politically conservative, which also neatly fit the pattern of Republican political affiliation that was necessary to rise in the PRR hierarchy. What all of this this says is that, without explicitly saying so, PRR was able to set up a system that limited opportunities for advancement, discriminating against blacks, women, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants who weren't "in line" (evangelicals such as Baptists were probably too vocal about their faith for the cultured Main Line bluebloods, and Lutherans may have been uncomfortably close to Catholic traditions for PRR). This pattern did not prevail on all railroads. The Milwaukee Road, for example, was known as a "Catholic" railroad, in which key leaders were of that faith and promoted into management those who went to the same churches as they did. New York Central did not hesitate to promote Catholics, Irish or otherwise, and of course, Al Perlman was a Jew who became its president. No surprise that Penn Central had troubles at the top: Being Jewish, Perlman was not welcome in Philadelphia or its social clubs; being a Democrat (supposedly with ties to the Johnson Administration), Stuart Saunders was not exactly old-money Main Line aristocracy; only David Bevan had the right club memberships and affiliations from the gitgo. Is it any wonder that the three didn't get along? I don't believe that PRR explicitly discriminated against blacks in train-service employment but rather, accomplished the same end by not challenging union traditions that barred blacks. I have yet to meet anyone who can verify that PRR ever employed a black engineman. Civil Rights legislation probably came along too late for the effect to trickle down into the locomotive cab by the time PRR expired on 2/1/68. Would be interested to learn otherwise from any ex-employees. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore (color) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:57:02 -0600 Hi All. I too, have some iron ore samples. Mine were obtained back in the 1960's while on a trip up to Northern Michigan. DM&IR territory. I have 3 little film canisters full. (Remember the metal film canisters?). They are all shades of red, one almost pink, one dark red - almost magenta. Of course, being in MI, may or may not be applicable to PRR. Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:07:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees --part1_44.2d3c6577.2b714d3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/2003 9:57:54 AM Central Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes: > How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > We're getting way OT here, but... I don't know about freemasonry, but I remember the father of my dad's business partner was told at his Rock Island retirement dinner that he was a great employee and if he hadn't been Jewish he would have really risen high in his 45 years with the road. He wasn't Jewish. Bob Zoeller --part1_44.2d3c6577.2b714d3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/4/20= 03 9:57:54 AM Central Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes:


How typical was this among=20= railroads? I know that Freemasonry was
very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in
business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this?


We're getting way OT here, but... I  don't know about freemasonry,=20= but I remember the father of my dad's business partner was told at his Rock=20= Island retirement dinner that he was a great employee and if he hadn't been=20= Jewish he would have really risen high in his 45 years with the road.  = He wasn't Jewish.

Bob Zoeller --part1_44.2d3c6577.2b714d3c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona - and Strasburg and the Northumberland From: "M. E Allen" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_4aad.46d4.4b74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, Throwing in my own slightly belated two cents or so here - It wasn't so much that Judge Fullam wanted the collection scrapped as the really screwed up records that the Trustee had that merely showed the collection as X-many locomotives stored unserviceable. What I believe the Judge did was authorize the sale for scrap of unserviceable power as a source of cash. The Trustee's rep I was working with was not familiar with the railroad (he was a finance type - and a very competent one) and he had no idea that there were several steam locomotives squirreled away. To his credit once he knew what the problem was he recognized that the value as a collection was probably higher than as scrap and the deal with the state became possible. As for the screwed up records the question of "What do we do with those old engines?" came up many times after the transfer (as late as 1980!!) and I had a canned "We gave them to the state and you got from under Y-many dollars of back taxes" answer. Usually at this point I also had to explain again that: 1, since they did not own the Long Bridge over the Potomac the couldn't sell it; and, 2, that they should stop paying property taxes on Exchange Place because it hadn't been there for 15 years. Mike Allen ----__JNP_000_4aad.46d4.4b74 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen,
 
Throwing in my own slightly belated two cents or so here -
 
        It wasn't so much that = Judge=20 Fullam wanted the collection scrapped as the really screwed up records= that=20 the Trustee had that merely showed the collection as X-many locomotives = stored=20 unserviceable. What I believe the Judge did was authorize the sale for = scrap of=20 unserviceable power as a source of cash. The Trustee's rep I was working = with=20 was not familiar with the railroad (he was a finance type - and a very = competent=20 one) and he had no idea that there were several steam locomotives = squirreled=20 away. To his credit once he knew what the problem was he recognized that = the=20 value as a collection was probably higher than as scrap and the deal with = the=20 state became possible.
 
As for the screwed up records the question of "What do we do with = those old=20 engines?" came up many times after the transfer (as late as 1980!!) and I = had a=20 canned "We gave them to the state and you got from under Y-many dollars of = back=20 taxes" answer. Usually at this point I also had to explain again that: 1, = since=20 they did not own the Long Bridge over the Potomac the couldn't sell it; and= , 2,=20 that they should stop paying property taxes on Exchange Place because it = hadn't=20 been there for 15 years.
 
 
Mike Allen   
----__JNP_000_4aad.46d4.4b74-- ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:34:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Thanks for the tip! Maybe I won't be using the ore after all. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:21:30 -0600 Watch out! This ore is magnetic, and will affect uncouplers, magnets in model locomotives, and possibly other electrical devices. I'm not sure any magnetic material should be used on model railroads. -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:23 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I scooped up two coffee cans full of the red ore that is still all over the place at the (now closed) ore docks in South Philly. I'm thinking of running it through some screens to get the dirt out and using it as a load in the ore cars. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:19:04 -0500 When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse in 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered whites about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker room/welfare building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse (i.e. an outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough lockers in the roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. I suspect several guys had more than one locker in use in both facilities. If women had been hired there, I have no clue where they would have changed clothes. I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from the ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a LOT of members there! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:23 AM To: Charles Ring, W3NU; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Charles, Graduating from Princeton didn't hurt either. The New York Central favored folks who wore the other ring (Knights of Columbus). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 AM Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees > Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. > > It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited > to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is > discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR > (and other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only > once, and last year I was surprised to see it documented at the > Altoona museum - "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be > a Protestant and a Mason", and "I could do something for you but you > wear the wrong ring" (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This > neatly locked out Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could > not get admitted to a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. > > Two questions: > > 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member > of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was > restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago > but it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? > > 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:15:49 -0500 From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Bill Volkmer wrote: > When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse in > 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered whites > about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker room/welfare > building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse (i.e. an > outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough lockers in the > roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. I suspect > several guys had more than one locker in use in both facilities. If > women had been hired there, I have no clue where they would have changed > clothes. > > I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of > managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level > supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from the > ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish > persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, > discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a > LOT of members there! > WDV > My father was a yardmaster, which I understand was at the highest level where one is a union member and not management, and thus reachable by non-Masons. Was a General Foreman at the same level? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:20:27 -0600 Hi All! Agreed, but: IMHO if the ore is glued in a "removable" manner for placement in the ore car, then the "magnetism" will not be a problem. Plus, the added weight is well needed. i.e., removable manner means like the "loads" now available, that can be inserted and removed at will! Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, 04 February, 2003 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic > Watch out! This ore is magnetic, and will affect uncouplers, magnets in model locomotives, and possibly other electrical devices. I'm not sure any magnetic material should be used on model railroads....................... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:35:53 -0500 No, Gang Foreman was the highest unionized level (in the Mechanical Dept.) The (some) Gang Foremen had their own union and it was not in any way affiliated with the AFL or CIO. I personally was a Gang Foreman and never a part of a Union. Asst. Foreman, Foreman and Gen. Foreman were non-union in the M of E Dept. Foreman in MW WAS unionized. Like I said before I don't remember anybody keeping score so I can't off the top of my head site any ferinstances on either side of the equation. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring, W3NU [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:16 PM To: Bill Volkmer; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Bill Volkmer wrote: > When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse > in 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered > whites about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker > room/welfare building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse > (i.e. an outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough > lockers in the roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. > I suspect several guys had more than one locker in use in both > facilities. If women had been hired there, I have no clue where they > would have changed clothes. > > I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of > managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level > supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from > the ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish > persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, > discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a > LOT of members there! WDV > My father was a yardmaster, which I understand was at the highest level where one is a union member and not management, and thus reachable by non-Masons. Was a General Foreman at the same level? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:39:15 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Probably not on PRR at Cincinnati In a message dated 2/4/03 1:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and > Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, > DC > and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being > shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in > 1963 > when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather > mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being > told that that was the "Negro" locker room. That sort of thing was probably the norm, by law or still by custom, in 1963. However, I have a problem with a "Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati", as the PRR had no property south of the Ohio River (in Kentucky). PRR's Cincinnati engine house facility was at Pendleton OH, a section of Cincinnati. And passenger power was serviced at CUT, also north of the river Possibilities: 1. you were on one of those transfers to L&N DeCoursey (KY) which you've described earlier. 2. you were on a transfer to SR Ludlow KY or C&O Stevens Yard Silver Grove KY (neither very likely) 2. you could be describing a situation in Louisville KY -- but by 1963 the PRR engine facility had moved north of the river to Jeffersonville (IN) Yard. When I ask older locals here in Louisville about segregation on the railroads in that era, I often get some vague statement that Kentucky wasn't serious about segregation by then. However, I see the pictures of L&N's "divided" combines on the locals, and suspect it was serious enough for black citizens. One more comment -- most of the black men I worked with in the 1960's (in the north) were very careful not to offend their white co-workers. Their rule seemed to be that good jobs were worth being considerate of white sensibilities. In retrospect, I think it took a lot of self-discipline for them to succeed, but they did it and took care of their families. I think this is a story not often enough repeated. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:39:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Probably not on PRR at Cincinnati --part1_1d4.19cfced.2b7162d3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/03 1:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and > Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, > DC > and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being > shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in > 1963 > when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather > mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being > told that that was the "Negro" locker room. That sort of thing was probably the norm, by law or still by custom, in 1963. However, I have a problem with a "Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati", as the PRR had no property south of the Ohio River (in Kentucky). PRR's Cincinnati engine house facility was at Pendleton OH, a section of Cincinnati. And passenger power was serviced at CUT, also north of the river Possibilities: 1. you were on one of those transfers to L&N DeCoursey (KY) which you've described earlier. 2. you were on a transfer to SR Ludlow KY or C&O Stevens Yard Silver Grove KY (neither very likely) 2. you could be describing a situation in Louisville KY -- but by 1963 the PRR engine facility had moved north of the river to Jeffersonville (IN) Yard. When I ask older locals here in Louisville about segregation on the railroads in that era, I often get some vague statement that Kentucky wasn't serious about segregation by then. However, I see the pictures of L&N's "divided" combines on the locals, and suspect it was serious enough for black citizens. One more comment -- most of the black men I worked with in the 1960's (in the north) were very careful not to offend their white co-workers. Their rule seemed to be that good jobs were worth being considerate of white sensibilities. In retrospect, I think it took a lot of self-discipline for them to succeed, but they did it and took care of their families. I think this is a story not often enough repeated. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1d4.19cfced.2b7162d3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/03 1:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and
Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC
and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being
shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963
when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather
mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being
told that that was the "Negro" locker room.


That sort of thing was probably the norm, by law or still by custom, in 1963.  However, I have a problem with a "Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati", as the PRR had no property south of the Ohio River (in Kentucky).  PRR's Cincinnati engine house facility was at Pendleton OH, a section of Cincinnati.  And passenger power was serviced at CUT, also north of the river

Possibilities:
1. you were on one of those transfers to L&N DeCoursey (KY) which you've described earlier.
2.  you were on a transfer to SR Ludlow KY or C&O Stevens Yard Silver Grove KY (neither very likely)
2. you could be describing a situation in Louisville KY -- but by 1963 the PRR engine facility had moved north of the river to Jeffersonville (IN) Yard.

When I ask older locals here in Louisville about segregation on the railroads in that era, I often get some vague statement that Kentucky wasn't serious about segregation by then.  However, I see the pictures of L&N's "divided" combines on the locals, and suspect it was serious enough for black citizens.

One more comment -- most of the black men I worked with in the 1960's (in the north) were very careful not to offend their white co-workers.  Their rule seemed to be that good jobs were worth being considerate of white sensibilities.  In retrospect, I think it took a lot of self-discipline for them to succeed, but they did it and took care of their families.  I think this is a story not often enough repeated.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1d4.19cfced.2b7162d3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:34 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Segregation, etc. --0-538388526-1044386614=:48598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded to my questions, especially those who recounted personal experiences. While not only interesting from an historical standpoint, there is certainly some material here that could contribute to more accurate modeling of the era. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-538388526-1044386614=:48598 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded to my questions, especially those who recounted personal experiences.  While not only interesting from an historical standpoint, there is certainly some material here that could contribute to more accurate modeling of the era.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-538388526-1044386614=:48598-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:31:19 -0500 Bill, As a traffic department sales rep, I was a system employee, and as such I can vouch that while there were folks of many religious persuasions in the department, those of the "right" denominations and Freemasons were the ones "on the circuit" for promotion. I definitely recall about the masons as I was asked to join. Of interest, the PRR was the first railroad to hire an African-American Sales Representative. He was assigned to the System Passenger Sales department in Philadelphia and his "territory" was the professional sports teams. Another interesting sidelight, PRR sought Native Americans as employees. The Stationmaster at Baltimore was a full-blooded Indian ( I can't remember his tribe). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; "'Charles Ring, W3NU'" ; "'PRR Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] discrimination - employees > When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse in > 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered whites > about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker room/welfare > building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse (i.e. an > outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough lockers in the > roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. I suspect > several guys had more than one locker in use in both facilities. If > women had been hired there, I have no clue where they would have changed > clothes. > > I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of > managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level > supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from the > ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish > persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, > discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a > LOT of members there! > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:23 AM > To: Charles Ring, W3NU; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees > > > Charles, > > Graduating from Princeton didn't hurt either. The New York Central > favored folks who wore the other ring (Knights of Columbus). > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" > To: "PRR Talk" > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 AM > Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees > > > > Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. > > > > It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited > > > to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is > > discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR > > (and other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only > > once, and last year I was surprised to see it documented at the > > Altoona museum - "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be > > a Protestant and a Mason", and "I could do something for you but you > > wear the wrong ring" (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This > > neatly locked out Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could > > not get admitted to a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. > > > > Two questions: > > > > 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member > > > of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was > > restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago > > but it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? > > > > 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:33:06 -0500 Just as an adjunct to Dan Cupper's post: Two of the Penn Central 'big three' were "outlanders" even to the component railroads of PC: Al Perlman was brought in to the NYC from the Rio Grande by Robert R. Young after the famous proxy fight where Young got control of the Central. Perlman was supposedly a 'crack' operating man and Young wanted to shake things up in the complacent Central management. While it may have been a losing cause (I've read that any profits Central made in its final years were coming from its Park Avenue real estate, not its railroad operations) Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. I read recently in Classic Trains that Perlman found running a railroad the size of the NYC a bit more challenging than the little Rio Grande, and pulled a few operational boners in the process. Stuart Saunders was brought in by then PRR-president Jim Symes as his replacement, after Saunders was able to orchestrate the parallel merger of the Virginian and the Norfolk & Western as head of the N&W at that time. He came up through N&W's law department, as I remember. I believe Saunders was also the man who dieselized (sob) the Norfolk and Western -- no 'faith in steam', he. Symes brought him in over Alan Greenough or other very-qualified PRR men, in order to implement Symes obsession of reducing duplicate facilities and unnecessary competition by merging with the PRR's arch-rival to the north. Given that PRR controlled the N&W and that railroad was often used as a "farm team" to groom prospective PRR upper management, the same Protestant/Masonic criteria was probably in place in Roanoke. David Bevan, the financial guy of the three who invested the railroad's money in pipelines, amusement parks, shopping centers and the like rather than keeping up the railroad's physical plant and equipment, came up through the PRR's standard management path, I believe, and was probably both a Protestant and a Mason. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:53:37 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR So Stuart Saunders was responsible for killing steam on the N&W, demolishing Penn Station, and bringing about the end of both the PRR and the NYC. That's quite a resume' ! I wouldn't want to be holding his Life Insurance if he ever showed up at a railfan meet. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Drew wrote: (in part) > Just as an adjunct to Dan Cupper's post: > > . . . > > Stuart Saunders was brought in by then PRR-president Jim Symes as > his replacement, after Saunders was able to orchestrate the parallel merger > of the Virginian and the Norfolk & Western as head of the N&W at that time. > He came up through N&W's law department, as I remember. I believe Saunders > was also the man who dieselized (sob) the Norfolk and Western -- no 'faith > in steam', he. Symes brought him in over Alan Greenough or other > very-qualified PRR men, in order to implement Symes obsession of reducing > duplicate facilities and unnecessary competition by merging with the PRR's > arch-rival to the north. Given that PRR controlled the N&W and that railroad > was often used as a "farm team" to groom prospective PRR upper management, > the same Protestant/Masonic criteria was probably in place in Roanoke. > > . . . > > -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:15:43 -0500 Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with something that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond Loewy and Associates, too? People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of what the station had become. Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot of people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse 'train shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn Station, or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. Doug Drew > ---------- > From: Andrew S. Miller > Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:53 PM > To: Doug Drew > Cc: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > So Stuart Saunders was responsible for killing steam on the N&W, > demolishing > Penn Station, and bringing about the end of both the PRR and the NYC. > That's > quite a resume' ! I wouldn't want to be holding his Life Insurance if he > ever > showed up at a railfan meet. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Doug Drew wrote: (in part) > > > Just as an adjunct to Dan Cupper's post: > > > > . . . > > > > Stuart Saunders was brought in by then PRR-president Jim Symes > as > > his replacement, after Saunders was able to orchestrate the parallel > merger > > of the Virginian and the Norfolk & Western as head of the N&W at that > time. > > He came up through N&W's law department, as I remember. I believe > Saunders > > was also the man who dieselized (sob) the Norfolk and Western -- no > 'faith > > in steam', he. Symes brought him in over Alan Greenough or other > > very-qualified PRR men, in order to implement Symes obsession of > reducing > > duplicate facilities and unnecessary competition by merging with the > PRR's > > arch-rival to the north. Given that PRR controlled the N&W and that > railroad > > was often used as a "farm team" to groom prospective PRR upper > management, > > the same Protestant/Masonic criteria was probably in place in Roanoke. > > > > . . . > > > > -- Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:49:21 -0500 List, Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the "Garden" after the PC merger. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! > > I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of > Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can > understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. > > Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that > godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with something > that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting > room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond > Loewy and Associates, too? > > People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of > what the station had become. > > Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the > Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the > plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to > the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the > like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' > PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as > they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition > began. > > Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot of > people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of > turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" > Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing > attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse 'train > shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn Station, > or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. > > Doug Drew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Segregation, etc. Thanks to all who responded to my questions, especially those who recounted personal experiences. While not only interesting from an historical standpoint, there is certainly some material here that could contribute to more accurate modeling of the era. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:59:58 -0500 (EST) From: Will Semanchuk-Enser Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR And the fact that PC owned the Rangers didn't have anything to do with it did it?? Wreck of the Penn Central has that nice fold out chart in it that shows all the pies the PC fingers were in. Who owned the Rangers before the merger...PRR or NYC?? Which company was the one that owned Six Flags before the merger or did that come about during the PC years?? Great Southwestern Corp or whatever it was called! On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >List, > >Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the >property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, >but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on >that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air >rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the >"Garden" after the PC merger. > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Doug Drew" >To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" > >Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" >Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM >Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > >> Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! >> >> I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots >of >> Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can >> understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. >> >> Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that >> godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with >something >> that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting >> room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond >> Loewy and Associates, too? >> >> People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of >> what the station had become. >> >> Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the >> Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the >> plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came >to >> the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and >the >> like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' >> PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as >> they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition >> began. >> >> Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot >of >> people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of >> turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" >> Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing >> attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse >'train >> shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn >Station, >> or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. >> >> Doug Drew >> >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:53:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2CC97.E8F9ACC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, The Sam Rea Line was featured in the Summer 1986 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 ) Regards, John H. Wright, =20 Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: = http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Listers, Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the = never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies. Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2CC97.E8F9ACC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
The Sam Rea Line was featured in the = Summer 1986=20 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 )
 
Regards,
         &n= bsp;    =20 John H. Wright,  =20
           &nb= sp;  =20 Washington,   England
Websites at:  http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/  =20 and:  http://www.xclent.clara.net
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, = 2003 3:13=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea = Line

Listers,
 
Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan = for the=20 never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies.
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Chris Chany
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2CC97.E8F9ACC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:07:13 -0600 Unfortunately, descrimination of the type covered in this thread still exists today, although it is much more subtle. They don't call it the "old boy" network for nothing! Preferences are still given to certain religions, colleges where one graduates, etc. The corporate world is littered with people who have progressed up the corporate ladder yet have very little to point to in terms of what they really accomplished. And, above a certain level, they need not even be responsible for their failures. I stop. This is a medium to discuss the Railroad, not the general ills of society. -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:49 PM To: Doug Drew; 'Andrew S. Miller'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR List, Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the "Garden" after the PC merger. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! > > I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of > Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can > understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. > > Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that > godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with something > that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting > room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond > Loewy and Associates, too? > > People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of > what the station had become. > > Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the > Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the > plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to > the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the > like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' > PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as > they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition > began. > > Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot of > people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of > turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" > Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing > attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse 'train > shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn Station, > or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. > > Doug Drew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:09:53 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC9A.05A67E64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gosh, I thought it was closer to the present than that. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: John H. Wright [mailto:johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:54 PM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Chris, The Sam Rea Line was featured in the Summer 1986 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 ) Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Listers, Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies. Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC9A.05A67E64 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gosh,  I thought it was closer to the present than that. 
 
Thanks,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: John H. Wright [mailto:johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:54 PM
To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line

Chris,
The Sam Rea Line was featured in the Summer 1986 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 )
 
Regards,
               John H. Wright,  
               Washington,   England
Websites at:  http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/   and:  http://www.xclent.clara.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:13 PM
Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line

Listers,
 
Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies.
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC9A.05A67E64-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:11:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. ********************** Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. >> In fact, I had an office on the Northwest corner of old Penn Station that overlooked the Turf Bar on the North side and the PO building on the West. Our section of offices had a men's room that had the most interesting shower I had ever used. It had multiple shower heads, maybe 5. I "lived" in those offices several times, most often, in the threat of a labor problem. But, once, because of the NYC blackout. I had gone to Philly for a staff meeting and was on my way back and got as far as Newark, the day of the NYC blackout. I was able to get on a diesel switcher the crossed into NYC. The station, which was under destruction at that time (would have been 11/65), was pitch black, at least the lower level platforms were. We were lucky, however, that the construction crews had their own lighting systems (they worked around the clock to minimize interference with Pennsy & LIRR traffic during the day) and much of the building was lighted. I was told that in order to get into the station, MoW folks had to move and spike switches because there was no juice to do it. The main floor of the station had a number of automobiles on display and their lights were turned on. There were some giant searchlights on the 8th Avenue side and someone had moved them from skyward to parallel to the street and just aimed them uptown. Thus, for most of the blackout, Penn Station was one of the few islands of light in NYC. There were commuters bunking in everywhere they could find a space. My wife had just given birth to our first daughter and was safe and sound at Roosevelt Hospital. The 'phones worked and I was able to talk to her and call my worried parents in California. I walked around a while and then went back to the office which I had all to myself. There were stowed fold up beds and clean sheets and blankets sealed in brown paper packages. There were also some standard Pennsy lanterns with the big nine volt batteries. I got some food from the dinning car services down in the guts of the station and, in the morning, enjoyed the shower. So, the destruction of Penn Station in NYC was well underway in November, 1965. I do also remember moving the office out of the Station to the building immediately south of Penn Sta. That was before I left in Oct, 1966. I never went back although, I did visit with some colleagues at the Penn Central offices in or near Grand Central. I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:51:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line --part1_1cf.1a3032b.2b719ddd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris and others, You are thinking of the article "Penn Station and the Sam Rea Line" by Ed Waytel in the Spring 1999 (Vol. 32, No. 1) issue of "The Keystone". In the article, Ed forms a scenario of what may have happened if the Pennsy had used the funds for building Penn Station and the PRR Hudsin River Tunnels to build the Sam Rea Line instead. Many of the details from the previous article about the Sam Rea Line were repeated. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_1cf.1a3032b.2b719ddd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris and others,

You are thinking of the article "Penn Station and the Sam Rea Line" by Ed Wa= ytel in the Spring 1999 (Vol. 32, No. 1) issue of "The Keystone".  In t= he article, Ed forms a scenario of what may have happened if the Pennsy had=20= used the funds for building Penn Station and the PRR Hudsin River Tunnels to= build the Sam Rea Line instead.  Many of the details from the previous= article about the Sam Rea Line were repeated.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_1cf.1a3032b.2b719ddd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:12:25 -0500 Will, They ALL belonged to the PRR before the merger. Want to hear the strangest part of all? PRR purchased the Arvida Corp., the real estate company in Florida that owned the Boca Raton golf club, through the Six Flags-Great Southwest subsidiary. I retired from the Apalachicola Northern Railroad, a subsidiary of St Joe Paper Company, after it sold the paper business and became a real estate company.. St. Joe Company promptly purchased the same Arvida Corp. and is now building a 1500 unit high end beach community between my house and Port Saint Joe! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Semanchuk-Enser" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Cc: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" ; Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > > And the fact that PC owned the Rangers didn't have anything to do with it > did it?? > > Wreck of the Penn Central has that nice fold out chart in it that shows > all the pies the PC fingers were in. Who owned the Rangers before the > merger...PRR or NYC?? > > Which company was the one that owned Six Flags before the merger or did > that come about during the PC years?? Great Southwestern Corp or whatever > it was called! > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > >List, > > > >Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the > >property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, > >but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on > >that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air > >rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the > >"Garden" after the PC merger. > > > >Gregg Mahlkov > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Doug Drew" > >To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" > > > >Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" > >Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM > >Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > > > > >> Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! > >> > >> I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots > >of > >> Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can > >> understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. > >> > >> Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that > >> godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with > >something > >> that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting > >> room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond > >> Loewy and Associates, too? > >> > >> People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of > >> what the station had become. > >> > >> Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the > >> Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the > >> plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came > >to > >> the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and > >the > >> like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' > >> PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as > >> they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition > >> began. > >> > >> Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot > >of > >> people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of > >> turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" > >> Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing > >> attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse > >'train > >> shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn > >Station, > >> or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. > >> > >> Doug Drew > >> > >> > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager > www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting > www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:22:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore (color) Morgan, Hmm, Could you possibly be thinking of northern Minnesota? The Missabe Road doesn't run any further east than Superior, Wisconsin. (Well, Itasca Jct, WI, actually) Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:31:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR --part1_1ef.100f812.2b71c384_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your discussion they are representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing bad things. Roger --part1_1ef.100f812.2b71c384_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your discussion=20= they are representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing bad= things.

Roger --part1_1ef.100f812.2b71c384_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:12:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CC92.31B60860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger, That's certainly NOT something anyone was inferring. I frankly can't = understand where you could derive that from the discussion we have been = having on PRR's (and other railroads') employment practices. Years ago, the AN Railroad went out of its way to hire good baseball = players (there was an industrial league here). Did that make baseball = players representative of the devil?? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Huber25@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR=20 What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your discussion they are = representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing bad = things. Roger=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CC92.31B60860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger,
 
That's certainly NOT something anyone was inferring. = I frankly=20 can't understand where you could derive that from the discussion we have = been=20 having on PRR's (and other railroads') employment = practices.
 
Years ago, the AN Railroad went out of its way to = hire good=20 baseball players (there was an industrial league here). Did that make = baseball=20 players representative of the devil??
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Huber25@aol.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, = 2003 8:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] re: = Freemasonry,=20 discrimination, and the PRR

What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your = discussion they=20 are representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing = bad=20 things.

Roger ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CC92.31B60860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:27:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the day? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 08:57:15 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Hi folks, with the discussion on iron ore you touch the professional side of my rail enthusiasm. As a geologist, I am familiar with mining, ore types and distribution. There are 4 basic types of iron ore: 1) Hematite, which gives the red color and is an iron oxide. It is the most common one and can be found as well in old basement rocks (i.e. Missabe range) as in the paleozoic rocks of the Appalachian belt. I used to live as a child in a mining area for this hematitic iron ore here in Germany, and I can tell you, the colour is very hard (impossible) to be completely washed from boots, etc. Old, long ago abandoned ore loading facilities have still a redish colour all around. Fine coats of hematite also gives the red colour to red sandstones. Nick Kulp schrieb: > Hi Bob, > > Not all iron ore was from the Missabe Range. One of the richest and oldest operating > iron-ore mines in the US was in Cornwall, Pa. The iron ore from that mine was > in limestone and it was gray not red. > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > > I have a question about the color. The pellets I have seen looked more > gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red > > color? > > Bob Zoeller > > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 09:19:24 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (=?iso-8859-1?Q?c=B4td?=) -- Sorry, pressed "send" by accident; let my start again -- Hi folks, with the discussion on iron ore you touch the professional side of my rail enthusiasm. As a geologist, I am familiar with mining, ore types and distribution. There are 4 basic types of iron ore: 1) Hematite, which gives the red color and is an iron oxide. It is the most common one and can be found as well in old basement rocks (i.e. Missabe range) as in the paleozoic rocks of the Appalachian belt. I used to live as a child in a mining area for this hematitic iron ore here in Germany, and I can tell you, the colour is very hard (impossible) to be completely washed from boots, etc. Old, long ago abandoned ore loading facilities have still a redish colour all around. Fine coats of hematite also gives the red colour to red sandstones. Hematite is not magnetic; the name comes from the greek word "haima" for blood, because of the colour. Btw., polished hematite has a greyish shine and is used as a gem, however, the moment you have some hematite dust, it shows the red again. 2) Magnetite is also an iron oxide, but with more iron in the grid. Thus magnetite is the only iron ore which, as the name says, is magnetic. It sometimes is associated with hematitic mines, but the main deposits are the "banded iron formations" like the ones in brasil in Minas Gerais. These formations are only found in very old rocks like those of the Canadian shield. The colour of magnetite is dark grey to black. 3) The ore Nick Kulp mentions from Cornwall, PA, he says is associated with limestone. This is typical for Siderite, the iron carbonate. A main deposit of this type is e.g. the ore mountain in Styria/Austria, famous to railfans because the ore was shipped by a standard-gauge rack railway with large steam engines, replaced today by diesels with special braking (no rack anymore). Sideritic iron ore may be found in the Appalachian belt. The colour is brown to greyish, the ore is not magnetic. 4) The last type is Limonite, which occurs as secondary deposits e.g. on top of limestone layers. It consists of a mixtures of iron oxides and hydroxides, and is more or less just rust. Thus the colour is brown-yellow-red, just like rust. Deposits usually are minor and can occur everywhere where limestones or marls are not too far from primary deposits of hematite or magnetite. The ore sometimes has excellent quality and can contain much manganese, which made it interesting for the steel industry. All these ore types could have been shipped on the Pennsy, resulting in several different colours of the ore. Because of the excellent pigment quality of hematite, cars once being loaded with this stuff will carry a reddish tone for a long time (the "Falun red", the typical red of most Swedish and many North American houses, originally was made with hematite from the iron ore mines in Falun, Sweden). Regards, Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 06:21:12 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Burkhard, Thanx for the interesting dissertation on iron ore colors. Most of the colors that were being described in the previous editions of the thread by Bob, Elden and myself were not of iron ore itself, but of taconite pellets. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 08:19:55 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR If I recall correctly, Saunders was a graduate of a small law school in Cambridge, our fair city, MA...which was and is it's own club and key to advancement in corporate ranks. Oh, the PRR did not run or control the N&W, even though they did own lots of N&W stock (dividends of which kept the PRR financially sound through the bad times.) Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva near NS headquarters, where they are still making money hauling coal from West VA to Norfolk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:24:50 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[PRR]=20PRR=20ore=20traffic=20(c=B4td)?= In a message dated 2/5/03 2:27:59 AM Central Standard Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: << There are 4 basic types of iron ore: (big snip) >> Thanks very much for the information, Burkhard. Sorry to "pile on", but can you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the only pellet? Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on the subject). A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:29:00 -0500 Yea, and Perlman did it with Collins Radio computers. Collins quit the computer biz by the time of the PC merger. Worked so well with the PRR IBM's that there was a small army riding "clockers" between NY and Phila with tapes and printouts! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, > DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and > innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> > > Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the day? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:08:15 -0500 Correction. The PRR used Frieden punched tape system. The NYC stuck with their IBM punched card system. That was one of the principal screw-ups with the merger. Neither "team" was willing to yield their turf to settle on a common computer system. In the Williamsport area alone there were six computers, two in the passenger station, two at Newberry (NYC) Yard and two at the PRR Williamsport yard. Small wonder that the merged railroad went into the toilet. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:29 AM To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Yea, and Perlman did it with Collins Radio computers. Collins quit the computer biz by the time of the PC merger. Worked so well with the PRR IBM's that there was a small army riding "clockers" between NY and Phila with tapes and printouts! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, > DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards > and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. > >> > > Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the > day? > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:39:21 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:03 AM To: 'Prr-talk@dsop.cim' Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation Lee, Only a few GG1's had the louver relocation. Several different styles were used. The problem was basically solved with improved motor insulation, so the remainder of the fleet retained their original louvers. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: edmund burbage [mailto:leeprrswitchkey@msn.com] Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:27 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Observation I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is Three GG-1's with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive. Is my 72 year old memory failing me wasn't this problem corrected after the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged these intakes? I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near the Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the picture caption?? Lee Burbage **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:57:34 -0500 I seem to remember the pellets (looked like rabbit poop) coming from either Liberia or Libya when the ore jennies first came out. All came through S. Philadelphia and got dumped somewhere in the Wierton area. WDV (don't know poop about rabbits) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:25 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c´td) In a message dated 2/5/03 2:27:59 AM Central Standard Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: << There are 4 basic types of iron ore: (big snip) >> Thanks very much for the information, Burkhard. Sorry to "pile on", but can you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the only pellet? Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on the subject). A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Penn Center Plaza Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:02:46 -0500 Marty Wrote: I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty Broad Street burned in 1952. Was located on the same turf where Penn Center Plaza was built. I think 4 Penn Center Plaza opened in 1956. Was featured on the calendar I think around 1957. I was hired there in 1958. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:12 PM To: DDrew@channing-bete.com; asmiller@mitre.org Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. ********************** Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. >> In fact, I had an office on the Northwest corner of old Penn Station that overlooked the Turf Bar on the North side and the PO building on the West. Our section of offices had a men's room that had the most interesting shower I had ever used. It had multiple shower heads, maybe 5. I "lived" in those offices several times, most often, in the threat of a labor problem. But, once, because of the NYC blackout. I had gone to Philly for a staff meeting and was on my way back and got as far as Newark, the day of the NYC blackout. I was able to get on a diesel switcher the crossed into NYC. The station, which was under destruction at that time (would have been 11/65), was pitch black, at least the lower level platforms were. We were lucky, however, that the construction crews had their own lighting systems (they worked around the clock to minimize interference with Pennsy & LIRR traffic during the day) and much of the building was lighted. I was told that in order to get into the station, MoW folks had to move and spike switches because there was no juice to do it. The main floor of the station had a number of automobiles on display and their lights were turned on. There were some giant searchlights on the 8th Avenue side and someone had moved them from skyward to parallel to the street and just aimed them uptown. Thus, for most of the blackout, Penn Station was one of the few islands of light in NYC. There were commuters bunking in everywhere they could find a space. My wife had just given birth to our first daughter and was safe and sound at Roosevelt Hospital. The 'phones worked and I was able to talk to her and call my worried parents in California. I walked around a while and then went back to the office which I had all to myself. There were stowed fold up beds and clean sheets and blankets sealed in brown paper packages. There were also some standard Pennsy lanterns with the big nine volt batteries. I got some food from the dinning car services down in the guts of the station and, in the morning, enjoyed the shower. So, the destruction of Penn Station in NYC was well underway in November, 1965. I do also remember moving the office out of the Station to the building immediately south of Penn Sta. That was before I left in Oct, 1966. I never went back although, I did visit with some colleagues at the Penn Central offices in or near Grand Central. I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:44:41 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines West In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Local Freight Symbols > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 > > Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras. > Here's the subject for today... > > Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even > Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some > Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN > 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train > Service". > > > EASTWARD > > > > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. > > > > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > WESTWARD > > > > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. > > > > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload > > freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. > > Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document? > I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for Philadelphia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just as local arranged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) suggest CN-__ = Cincinnati Div CL-__ = Columbus Div GR-__ = Grand Rapids & Indiana Div FW-__ = Fort Wayne Division PH-__ = Panhandle Division SW-__ = Southwest Division I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading. I don't see it in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a divisional designation, either. However, later several long distance trains used PR designations. For example, in 1966 these trains would have passed through Pittsburgh: PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - PC added a PR-2 from Chicago). OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of the various St. Louis points. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:44:41 EST Subject: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines West --part1_17e.16622d75.2b729979_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Local Freight Symbols > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 > > Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras. > Here's the subject for today... > > Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even > Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some > Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN > 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train > Service". > > > EASTWARD > > > > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. > > > > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > WESTWARD > > > > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. > > > > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload > > freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. > > Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document? > I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for Philadelphia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just as local arranged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) suggest CN-__ = Cincinnati Div CL-__ = Columbus Div GR-__ = Grand Rapids & Indiana Div FW-__ = Fort Wayne Division PH-__ = Panhandle Division SW-__ = Southwest Division I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading. I don't see it in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a divisional designation, either. However, later several long distance trains used PR designations. For example, in 1966 these trains would have passed through Pittsburgh: PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - PC added a PR-2 from Chicago). OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of the various St. Louis points. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17e.16622d75.2b729979_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 1/22/03 3= :26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Local Freight Symbols<= BR> From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500

Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras.
Here's the subject for today...

Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN
234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train Service".

> EASTWARD
>
> P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS  -<= BR> > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary.
>
> PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer run]
>
> P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching.
>
> PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer run]
>
> WESTWARD
>
> PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m.
>
> P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carloa= d
> freight for points on run and performs station switching.
>
> P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. -
> carload freight for points on run and performs station switching.
>
> PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m.

Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document?


I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for Philadelph= ia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just as local arran= ged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) suggest

CN-__ =3D Cincinnati Div
CL-__ =3D Columbus Div
GR-__ =3D Grand Rapids & Indiana Div
FW-__ =3D Fort Wayne Division
PH-__ =3D Panhandle Division
SW-__ =3D Southwest Division

I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its use fo= r transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading.  I don't see it in ci= rca-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was= a divisional designation, either.  However, later several long distanc= e trains used PR designations.  For example, in 1966 these trains would= have passed through Pittsburgh:

PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis
PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria
PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago
PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis

Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - PC ad= ded a PR-2 from Chicago).  OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined for P= ittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of the vario= us St. Louis points.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_17e.16622d75.2b729979_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:59:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Perlman - WAS: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR There were major installations of mainframe computer systems in the mid 1960's: an IBM 3000 system, and a Collins radio system of equal physical size to computerize the company's communications network, both at 466 Lexington Ave. There were also lower-tech projects, such as a closed-circuit TV system in Indianapolis to allow car clerks to read car reporting marks from an office location as the cars passed, rather than have to go out in the yard and read them in the field. Steve Bartlett Who installed the power systems for these Bobspf@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the day? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:58:01 -0500 > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and > innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> > > BZ: Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the > day? > > DD: Yes, he did. Of course, the system they went with was totally > different in configuration from the PRR's. > > The systems chosen reflected the different management philosophies between > the two lines > > I believe Pennsy's data processing was centralized in Philadelphia, while > the Central's had various data processing 'nodes' around their system. > I've read that Perlman preferred to be out on the property 'working out of > his hat' and gave his regional superintendants more authority vs. the > PRR's running everything out of Philadelphia. > > Central's was better for keeping track of trains and cars and moving > traffic and generated this kind of data faster, Pennsy's was slower but > better for accounting and reporting purposes (given the amount of > paperwork involved in car accounting alone, this was important). Central > was focused on moving expensive finished goods and priority freight, > Pennsy was far more focused on moving mineral trains and raw materials. > > The Central used CRT terminals, Pennsy's used teletype terminals. > > They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for NYC, > IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk to each > other after the merger. > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading old > Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the one > that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known period > where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and yardmasters had yards > chock full of cars, not knowing where to send them. > > Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Panza" Subject: Re: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:02:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2CD0E.6E714B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for = Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but the article = claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also states that the = trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to customers at Chicago and = St. Louis or to interchange with connecting lines. The PR trains = replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols. Of course, these were all westbounds = and perishable train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC era. PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the = TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM. It carries = piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight. PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago = at 5:50 AM the second morning. It carries piggyback shipments, = autoparts and merchandise. PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars received the same day from other = trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at = 6:45 AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting railroads. PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and general merchandise leaves = Harsimus Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from Baltimore and = Harrisburg and arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the second = morning. PR-9 carrying piggyback and general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM = and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the second morning. PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with cars received form Eastern Cities = and delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the next day. The article made no mention of eastbounds that surfaced later on. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@egroups.com ; PRR@egroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:44 AM Subject: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines = West=20 In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Local Freight Symbols From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of = Extras. Here's the subject for today... Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that = even Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with = some Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition = of GN 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight = Train Service". > EASTWARD >=20 > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, = and > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. >=20 > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. = Daily > [this was probably a transfer run] >=20 > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. = DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. >=20 > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. = Daily > [this was probably a transfer run] >=20 > WESTWARD >=20 > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. >=20 > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - = carload > freight for points on run and performs station switching. >=20 > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. >=20 > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" = document? I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for = Philadelphia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just = as local arranged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) = suggest CN-__ =3D Cincinnati Div CL-__ =3D Columbus Div GR-__ =3D Grand Rapids & Indiana Div FW-__ =3D Fort Wayne Division PH-__ =3D Panhandle Division SW-__ =3D Southwest Division I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its = use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading. I don't see it = in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily = mean it was a divisional designation, either. However, later several = long distance trains used PR designations. For example, in 1966 these = trains would have passed through Pittsburgh: PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - = PC added a PR-2 from Chicago). OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined = for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of = the various St. Louis points. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2CD0E.6E714B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
According to the September 15, 1966 = issue of "The=20 Pennsy", PR stands for Preference.  This appears to have been a = marketing=20 tool but the article claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery.  The = article=20 also states that the trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to = customers at=20 Chicago and St. Louis or to interchange with connecting lines.  The = PR=20 trains replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols.  Of course, these were all=20 westbounds and perishable train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC=20 era.
 
PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg = at 2:30 am=20 and arrives at the TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at = 5:00=20 AM.  It carries piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous=20 freight.
 
PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and = arrives at=20 55th St. Yard Chicago at 5:50 AM the second morning.  It carries = piggyback=20 shipments, autoparts and merchandise.
 
PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars = received=20 the same day from other trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th = St. Yard=20 in Chicago at 6:45 AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting=20 railroads.
 
PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and = general=20 merchandise leaves Harsimus Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from = Baltimore=20 and Harrisburg and arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the = second=20 morning.
 
PR-9 carrying piggyback and general = merchandise=20 leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the = second=20 morning.
 
PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with = cars received=20 form Eastern Cities and delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the = next=20 day.
 
The article made no mention of = eastbounds that=20 surfaced later on.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@egroups.com ; PRR@egroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, = 2003 10:44=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PR symbol = freights,=20 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines West

In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: Local Freight Symbols
From: "Jerry Britton" = <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: = Tue, 21=20 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500

Okay, gang, we had a great discussion = yesterday on the naming of Extras.
Here's the subject for=20 today...

Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was = telling=20 me that even
Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He = provided=20 me with some
Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the = "1958=20 edition of GN
234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the = Arranged=20 Local Freight Train
Service".

> EASTWARD
> =
> P-26=20 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS  = -
>=20 carload freight for points on run and performs station switching,=20 and
> operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when=20 necessary.
>
> PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to = Rutherford=20 arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer = run]
>=20
> P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 = p.m. DESS=20 -
> carload freight for points on run and performs station=20 switching.
>
> PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to = Rutherford=20 arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer = run]
>=20
> WESTWARD
>
> PR-9 flip side of PR-8, = Rutherford 10:00=20 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m.
>
> P-21 flip side of PR-20, York = Haven=20 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload
> freight for points on = run and=20 performs station switching.
>
> P-25 flip side of P-16, = Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. -
> carload freight = for points=20 on run and performs station switching.
>
> PR-3 flip = side of=20 PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m.

Anyone have a = 1954=20 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B"=20 document?


I'll go out on a limb here and guess = that=20 P-__ was the symbol for Philadelphia Division locals and divisional = trains=20 (more or less), just as local arranged freight schedules (and some = inductive=20 reasoning) suggest

CN-__ =3D Cincinnati Div
CL-__ =3D = Columbus=20 Div
GR-__ =3D Grand Rapids & Indiana Div
FW-__ =3D Fort = Wayne=20 Division
PH-__ =3D Panhandle Division
SW-__ =3D Southwest=20 Division

I've never known what PR referred to, although the = above=20 suggests its use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and = Reading.  I=20 don't see it in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't = necessarily mean it was a divisional designation, either.  = However, later=20 several long distance trains used PR designations.  For example, = in 1966=20 these trains would have passed through Pittsburgh:

PR-11 = Pitcairn to=20 TRRA E St Louis
PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria
PR-19 Pitcairn to = Indiana=20 Harbor Belt Chicago
PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St=20 Louis

Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here = (exception - PC added a PR-2 from Chicago).  OTOH, 1966 usage = offered=20 SW's destined for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite = numbers"=20 out of the various St. Louis points.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad and especially PRR Lines West = ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2CD0E.6E714B30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:10:23 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR --0-484332006-1044468623=:25587 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen down years ago) check out links from the New Haven Historical society site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, from what I've read. Ron LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. ********************** Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. >> In fact, I had an office on the Northwest corner of old Penn Station that overlooked the Turf Bar on the North side and the PO building on the West. Our section of offices had a men's room that had the most interesting shower I had ever used. It had multiple shower heads, maybe 5. I "lived" in those offices several times, most often, in the threat of a labor problem. But, once, because of the NYC blackout. I had gone to Philly for a staff meeting and was on my way back and got as far as Newark, the day of the NYC blackout. I was able to get on a diesel switcher the crossed into NYC. The station, which was under destruction at that time (would have been 11/65), was pitch black, at least the lower level platforms were. We were lucky, however, that the construction crews had their own lighting systems (they worked around the clock to minimize interference with Pennsy & LIRR traffic during the day) and much of the building was lighted. I was told that in order to get into the station, MoW folks had to move and spike switches because there was no juice to do it. The main floor of the station had a number of automobiles on display and their lights were turned on. There were some giant searchlights on the 8th Avenue side and someone had moved them from skyward to parallel to the street and just aimed them uptown. Thus, for most of the blackout, Penn Station was one of the few islands of light in NYC. There were commuters bunking in everywhere they could find a space. My wife had just given birth to our first daughter and was safe and sound at Roosevelt Hospital. The 'phones worked and I was able to talk to her and call my worried parents in California. I walked around a while and then went back to the office which I had all to myself. There were stowed fold up beds and clean sheets and blankets sealed in brown paper packages. There were also some standard Pennsy lanterns with the big nine volt batteries. I got some food from the dinning car services down in the guts of the station and, in the morning, enjoyed the shower. So, the destruction of Penn Station in NYC was well underway in November, 1965. I do also remember moving the office out of the Station to the building immediately south of Penn Sta. That was before I left in Oct, 1966. I never went back although, I did visit with some colleagues at the Penn Central offices in or near Grand Central. I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-484332006-1044468623=:25587 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, Mass., before restoration.  If you want to see a beautiful job of restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen down years ago) check out links from the New Haven Historical society site or do a search.  Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, from what I've read.  Ron

  LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote:

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C2DB45.5B2DCDB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 16:49:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Ties on the Right of Way This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_2XD+p0kBFMBsGXnnoI485A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: Ron Di Oro's bizarre ties and rail story. Yes, bizarre indeed. The value of steel typically exceeds that of timbers and steel is usually removed before timber. Most times railroads don't have forces available to remove track when it is the only track remaining and the line for all intents and purposes has been taken out of service and abandoned. In these instances the track structure is usually sold in place for its scrap/salvage value and is reclaimed by a contractor. However, MW forces usually do remove track structure in areas where active adjacent track is remaining. It is quite unusual to remove ties before the rail as it is a time consuming arduous job, especially if done by hand w/o the use of tie handling machinery. First the ballast shoulder around one end of the tie must be dug out and the spikes removed. Then the tie must be slipped out from under the rail and man-handled into a truck. In many cases the ties are completely embedded in ballast, dirt and mud which makes the job even more difficult. Ties, even those not fit for reuse for railroad purposes have a value for landscaping and cribbing. When rail is removed it is classified as salvage or scrap. Salvage may include reuse in track somewhere as part of the railroad's overall rail cascading program, which begins with either the installation of new rail in main track or release of good rail from an abandoned line. The other salvage use is being sold as reroller stock. That is the steel is not quite good enough for railroad use but is good enough to be heated and rerolled by a mill into a new useful structural shape. Scrap means the rail isn't good for anything except being melted down and reused as "new" steel. Each level carries a value which varies over time depending on the market place. Typically relay rail carries the highest value, scrap the lowest, reroller in between. Rail was picked up by crane using rail tongs and placed in a gon and shipped to the reclamation plant. I'm talking stick rail here, CWR is a different story. In its simplest terms cascading rail involves moving it from main track to secondary track to yard track to scrap. The piles of anchors, spikes, plates, bars, bolts, nuts and nutlocks, (a.k.a. OTM = Other Track Material) also have value. Depending on its condition, anchors, plates and bars are many times reused again. Spikes, bolts, nuts, and nutlocks are typically scrap. I don't remember sorting them by type along the ROW, just piles of OTM that were picked up by work train cranes using magnets into a gon. They were shipped to the reclamation plant in Altoona where they were separated into salvage and scrap. Al --Boundary_(ID_2XD+p0kBFMBsGXnnoI485A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Re: Ron Di Oro's bizarre ties and rail story.
 
Yes, bizarre indeed. The value of steel typically exceeds that of timbers and steel is usually removed before timber. Most times railroads don't have forces available to remove track when it is the only track remaining and the line for all intents and purposes has been taken out of service and abandoned. In these instances the track structure is usually sold in place for its scrap/salvage value and is reclaimed by a contractor. However, MW forces usually do remove track structure in areas where active adjacent track is remaining.
 
It is quite unusual to remove ties before the rail as it is a time consuming arduous job, especially if done by hand w/o the use of tie handling machinery. First the ballast shoulder around one end of the tie must be dug out and the spikes removed. Then the tie must be slipped out from under the rail and man-handled into a truck. In many cases the ties are completely embedded in ballast, dirt and mud which makes the job even more difficult.  Ties, even those not fit for reuse for railroad purposes have a value for landscaping and cribbing.
 
When rail is removed it is classified as salvage or scrap. Salvage may include reuse in track somewhere as part of the railroad's overall rail cascading program, which begins with either the installation of new rail in main track or release of good rail from an abandoned line. The other salvage use is being sold as reroller stock. That is the steel is not quite good enough for railroad use but is good enough to be heated and rerolled by a mill into a new useful structural shape. Scrap means the rail isn't good for anything except being melted down and reused as "new" steel. Each level carries a value which varies over time depending on the market place. Typically relay rail carries the highest value, scrap the lowest, reroller in between. Rail was picked up by crane using rail tongs and placed in a gon and shipped to the reclamation plant. I'm talking stick rail here, CWR is a different story.
 
In its simplest terms cascading rail involves moving it from main track to secondary track to yard track to scrap.
 
The piles of anchors, spikes, plates, bars, bolts, nuts and nutlocks, (a.k.a. OTM = Other Track Material) also have value. Depending on its condition, anchors, plates and bars are many times reused again. Spikes, bolts, nuts, and nutlocks are typically scrap. I don't remember sorting them by type along the ROW, just piles of OTM that were picked up by work train cranes using magnets into a gon. They were shipped to the reclamation plant in Altoona where they were separated into salvage and scrap. 
 
Al
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_2XD+p0kBFMBsGXnnoI485A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:24:23 EST Subject: [PRR] P70 roof vents --part1_e.2d3ff77a.2b8adc57_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, I latched onto some of the old ALCO passenger car kits. While checking photos for finishing details, I noticed that the roof vents changed on the cars with clerestory style roofs at the time the ice activated air-conditioning was added. Referencing the Liljestrand/Sweetland book, Passenger Equipment of the Penna. Railroad, Vol. 1: Coaches, published by The Railroad Press, the front cover shows two cars with the original style vents and probably mechanical air-conditioning(?). On page 21 both styles of roof vents are shown in the two photos. Were the original vents capped and a lone old style vent added mid-length along the roof line when the ice air-conditioning was added?? Or if not capped, what type of vent is this and is there a detail piece made in HO scale to dulplicate it with?? Can anyone direct me to an overhead photo of the ice air-conditioned P70 coach? If the old vents were capped, I would like to get a good look at the construction to see exactly how to model these. Many thanks in advance, Evan Leisey PS Was ALCO Models the forerunner of Eastern Car Works? The kits seem very similar in many respects. --part1_e.2d3ff77a.2b8adc57_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR List,

   I latched onto some of the old ALCO passenger car kits.  W= hile checking photos for finishing details, I noticed that the roof vents ch= anged on the cars with clerestory style roofs at the time the ice activated=20= air-conditioning was added.

   Referencing the Liljestrand/Sweetland book, Passenger Equipment= of the Penna. Railroad,  Vol. 1: Coaches, published by The Railroad Pr= ess, the front cover shows two cars with the original style vents and probab= ly mechanical air-conditioning(?).  On page 21 both styles of roof vent= s are shown in the two photos.  Were the original vents capped and a lo= ne old style vent added mid-length along the roof line when the ice air-cond= itioning was added??   Or if  not capped, what type of vent i= s this and is there a detail piece made in HO scale to dulplicate it with??&= nbsp;

  Can anyone direct me to an overhead photo of the ice air-conditioned=20= P70 coach?  If the old vents were capped, I would like to get a good lo= ok at the construction to see exactly how to model these.

  Many thanks in advance,

  Evan Leisey

  PS  Was ALCO Models the forerunner of Eastern Car Works?  T= he kits seem very similar in many respects. --part1_e.2d3ff77a.2b8adc57_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 roof vents Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:46:57 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2DB7C.B4AF2500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All I too, am interested in the answer. i.e., pictures of roofs. I have = the ECW P70, so believe it is the same as ALCO. Flat plastic as in all = in one plane, very little depth (not much depth needed in this kit), and = with oversize details. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, 23 February, 2003 20:24 Subject: [PRR] P70 roof vents PRR List, I latched onto some of the old ALCO passenger car kits. While = checking photos for finishing details, I noticed that the roof vents = changed on the cars with clerestory style roofs at the time the ice = activated air-conditioning was added. Referencing the Liljestrand/Sweetland book, Passenger Equipment of = the Penna. Railroad, Vol. 1: Coaches, published by The Railroad Press, = the front cover shows two cars with the original style vents and = probably mechanical air-conditioning(?). On page 21 both styles of roof = vents are shown in the two photos. Were the original vents capped and a = lone old style vent added mid-length along the roof line when the ice = air-conditioning was added?? Or if not capped, what type of vent is = this and is there a detail piece made in HO scale to dulplicate it = with?? =20 Can anyone direct me to an overhead photo of the ice air-conditioned = P70 coach? If the old vents were capped, I would like to get a good = look at the construction to see exactly how to model these. Many thanks in advance, Evan Leisey PS Was ALCO Models the forerunner of Eastern Car Works? The kits = seem very similar in many respects. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2DB7C.B4AF2500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All
 
I too, am interested in the = answer. =20 i.e., pictures of roofs.  I have the ECW P70, so believe it is the = same as=20 ALCO.  Flat plastic as in all in one plane, very little depth (not = much=20 depth needed in this kit), and with oversize details.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, 23 February, 2003 = 20:24
Subject: [PRR] P70 roof = vents

PRR List,

   I latched onto some = of the=20 old ALCO passenger car kits.  While checking photos for finishing = details, I noticed that the roof vents changed on the cars with = clerestory=20 style roofs at the time the ice activated air-conditioning was=20 added.

   Referencing the Liljestrand/Sweetland book, = Passenger Equipment of the Penna. Railroad,  Vol. 1: Coaches, = published=20 by The Railroad Press, the front cover shows two cars with the = original style=20 vents and probably mechanical air-conditioning(?).  On page 21 = both=20 styles of roof vents are shown in the two photos.  Were the = original=20 vents capped and a lone old style vent added mid-length along the roof = line=20 when the ice air-conditioning was added??   Or if  not = capped,=20 what type of vent is this and is there a detail piece made in HO scale = to=20 dulplicate it with?? 

  Can anyone direct me to an = overhead=20 photo of the ice air-conditioned P70 coach?  If the old vents = were=20 capped, I would like to get a good look at the construction to see = exactly how=20 to model these.

  Many thanks in advance,

  = Evan=20 Leisey

  PS  Was ALCO Models the forerunner of = Eastern Car=20 Works?  The kits seem very similar in many respects.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2DB7C.B4AF2500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 19:25:40 -0800 Subject: [PRR] PRR Heavyweight Pullmans From: "Douglas Nelson" Gary Spear's list of PRR Pullman Heavyweights notes numerous cars in Pullman Green paint. Does anyone have information on when and if these cars were repainted into PRR red? And how often did the green Pullmans show up in east-west PRR trains. Thanks, Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Heavyweight Pullmans Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 23:17:21 -0500 Doug, You need to read the Notes: http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_Notes.htm The paint is from the Sept. 1942 Pullman List. Before the cars were sold to the PRR. Tom Madden is creating a database of the Pullman Car Construction Records (CCR) and most cars have complete painting records, but NOT ALL. http://home.att.net/~tgmadden/Pullman_CCR_Text2.htm Will get you to the data. You must download the data and find the car name. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Nelson [SMTP:dougnelson@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 10:26 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Heavyweight Pullmans Gary Spear's list of PRR Pullman Heavyweights notes numerous cars in Pullman Green paint. Does anyone have information on when and if these cars were repainted into PRR red? And how often did the green Pullmans show up in east-west PRR trains. Thanks, Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: HIGHLINER HELP Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 23:48:58 -0500 Mark Taylor asked: I am trying to install the window glass into a couple of Athearn Genesis F-7's. I am not having very much luck in getting the results that I am looking for. I've tried CA glue (medium and thin), that clouded the glass, and a Window glue offered by Micro Mark, that has a thick base and left a small glue ring visible around the edges. What am I doing wrong? Can anyone steer me in the right direction? 1. Stay away from using CA. The fumes will cloud clear plastic almost every time. 2. Micro-Mark window glue, Microscale Kristal Klear, and Elmer's glue all work effectively. They all have thick bases and will dry clear, but will show if you use too much. Make sure you remove any excess with a damp tissue before the glue sets. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:11:20 -0500 Thanks Lew; Those are good suggestions for me as I already have a work in progress, But I haven't gone so far as to be ready to ballast. Phil > Phil: > > Here are some suggestions to follow to make your roadbed -whatever kind you > want to use, especially Homasote - work better and not warp. I used to use > a homasote product that was milled to profile and cut partially across to > make it flexible enough to curve. After installing the roadbed, take > drywall compound on a narrow putty knife, same width as your roadbed > surface, and go over the entire roadbed. This levels and fills in any gaps > or holes, after all, dry wall compound is cheaper than ballast. When dry, > lightly sand smooth with a flat sanding block. If you notice any low spots > when sanding, more compound may be in order. This is a good time to check > your roadbed shoulder profile too, especially on the viewing side. Check > out any low spots very carefully to make sure the roadbed doesn't need > reinstalling. After the compound dries, your roadbed should be almost > perfectly level with no dips or spaces within your roadbed splices and > connections. Paint it dark (or light) gray to match your ballast color, > with latex wall paint. Overlap the roadbed color onto the table top about > 1" on either side. This seals the roadbed and colors it so if you don't get > a perfect coverage with your ballast, it won't be noticeable. After the > latex paint dries, you can saturate the ballast to your heart's content and > won't get any warpage. I use a very dark gray paint on top of flat Homasote > sheets for yard areas, the dark paint matches the cinders. Works well with > tan for mud, etc. Remember, you only get one EASY chance to make your > roadbed and track perfect before all the scenery goes on. > > Lew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:54:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E9_01C2DBE2.5F8DB710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have any really vivid memories of the place. I think when they took the tower part out of the southwest corner, they made the whole building a rectangular foot print with some sort of asbestos shingle siding. I don't remember there being any trace of that tower portion that jutted out. The place was mainly a yard office, with the usual clerical types and the trainmaster in the lower corner of the first floor. I do remember shooting the SD-9s out the upstairs window that usually laid over in front of the tower. Sorry I never shot the tower as I just wasn't "into" shooting pictures of towers unless they happened to get in the way while the train was passing. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Weinland [mailto:rkweinland@knology.net] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 4:27 PM To: Bill Volkmer; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower Bill, Thanks for the comments on ROSE and the great story. I am modeling the late 1950's Altoona yard and am trying to add details that make the drastically condensed layout recongizable as Altoona. Your comments on the roof and missing wooden tower section of the building will be a great help. Since you have firsthand knowledge of ROSE, I hope you'll take a moment to answer a few questions: 1) Are the 2 unseen sides of the building similar looking to the 2 sides seen in the picture? 2) Did they brick over the windows where the tower used to be or were they glass? 3) Where is the door? 4) Are there any other else that stand out I should add to the model (outside stairs, signs, lights, ...) Thanks again Bill. I'll post a picture of the model when its done so you can tell me how close I got. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: 'Weinland' ; PRR-talk@dsop.com Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:57 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower This is far different appearance than the way I remember Rose Tower in 1958 when I worked in Altoona. The roof had been entirely rebuilt and did not have anything in the way of cupolas, dormers or whatever you call the stuff on the roof. Also the tower portion had been amputated. You are correct in your observations that a- the view looks southeasterly, and b- that the two tracks in the foreground were the passenger main tracks, which brings up a funny story. Take a look at the window in the lower left hand corner of the building. Note particularly how close to the track it is. I would say 15 feet would be a good guess as to how close to the CENTERLINE of the track that window was. Well, that happened to be the Trainmaster's Office. Not only was it the Trainmaster's Office, but the TM, Ralph Decker in those days, used to sit in his chair with the back tilted up against the windowsill and his head literally resting against the glass. I will never forget the first day I visited Ralph in that office. He was sitting in the tilted position, when an eastbound passenger train (probably 50 the Admiral running a little late) roared past. When I say roared past, I mean ROARED past. Every window pain in the entire building shook and rattled. I personally was looking for a window to jump out of. Ralph kind of grinned, never moved a muscle, and pointed over his shoulder, "Best damned maintained piece of track on the entire Pennsylvania Railroad! Gets inspected EVERY DAY by the Trainmaster himself!" I found the picture at : http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs and go to the Altoona and Juniata photos page and scroll down to the bottom right hand photo, in case you had trouble locating it. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weinland Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:08 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over the past few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I found this list! I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for information on the various towers there with special interest in my current project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/A LVERY%20red%20bridge.jpg Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the building look like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience that they would care to share with me? Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The photographer is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are the passenger tracks that run north of the freight yard and south of the shops. 2) The main building is brick. The Tower addition on the south west corner is wooden. 3) The main brick building is 25 feet deep and 45 feet long. The two lower floors are almost 21 feet tall. The third floor is just over 11 feet tall. 4) The wooden tower addition to the building protrudes 3 feet out to the west of the building. It appears that it also protrudes 3 feet out to the south (unseen). 5) The tower is 14 feet on the west side and I think it's about 17 feet across the south (unseen) side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 inches high. I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. I don't even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the other Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be greatly appreciated. Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. Thanks in advance. Ron rkweinland@knology.net ------=_NextPart_000_00E9_01C2DBE2.5F8DB710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I=20 don't have any really vivid memories of the place.  I think when = they took=20 the tower part out of the southwest corner, they made the whole building = a=20 rectangular foot print with some sort of asbestos shingle siding.  = I don't=20 remember there being any trace of that tower portion that jutted = out.  The=20 place was mainly a yard office, with the usual clerical types and the=20 trainmaster in the lower corner of the first  floor.  I do = remember=20 shooting the SD-9s out the upstairs window that usually laid over in = front of=20 the tower.
 
 
Sorry=20 I never shot the tower as I just wasn't "into" shooting pictures of = towers=20 unless they happened to get in the way while the train was=20 passing.
 
Bill=20 V.
-----Original Message-----
From: = Weinland=20 [mailto:rkweinland@knology.net]
Sent: Friday, February 21, = 2003=20 4:27 PM
To: Bill Volkmer; = PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower

Bill,
 
Thanks for the comments on ROSE and = the great=20 story. I am modeling the late 1950's Altoona yard and am trying to add = details=20 that make the drastically condensed layout recongizable as Altoona. = Your=20 comments on the roof and missing wooden tower section of the building = will be=20 a great help.
 
Since you have firsthand knowledge of = ROSE, I=20 hope you'll take a moment to answer a few questions:
 
1) Are the 2 unseen sides of the = building similar=20 looking to the 2 sides seen in the picture?
 
2) Did they brick over the windows = where the=20 tower used to be or were they glass?
 
3) Where is the door?
 
4) Are there any other else that = stand out I=20 should add to the model (outside stairs, signs, lights, = ...)
 
Thanks again Bill. I'll post a = picture of the=20 model when its done so you can tell me how close I got.
 
Ron
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Volkmer
To: 'Weinland' ; PRR-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, February 21, = 2003 1:57=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona's = ROSE=20 Tower

This is far different appearance than the way I remember = Rose Tower=20 in 1958 when I worked in Altoona.  The roof had been entirely = rebuilt=20 and did not have anything in the way of cupolas, dormers or whatever = you=20 call the stuff on the roof.  Also the tower portion had been=20 amputated.
 
You are correct in your observations that a- the view looks = southeasterly, and b- that the two tracks in the foreground were the = passenger main tracks, which brings up a funny = story.
 
Take a look at the window in the lower left hand corner of = the=20 building.  Note particularly how close to the track it = is.  I=20 would say 15 feet would be a good guess as to how close to the = CENTERLINE of=20 the track that window was.  Well, that happened to be the = Trainmaster's=20 Office.  Not only was it the Trainmaster's Office, but the TM, = Ralph=20 Decker in those days, used to sit in his chair with the back tilted = up=20 against the windowsill and his head literally resting against the=20 glass.
 
I=20 will never forget the first day I visited Ralph in that = office.  He was=20 sitting  in the tilted  position, when an eastbound = passenger=20 train (probably 50 the Admiral running a little late) roared = past. =20 When I say roared past, I mean ROARED past.  Every window pain = in the=20 entire building shook and rattled.  I personally was looking = for a=20 window to jump out of.
 
Ralph kind of grinned, never moved a muscle, and pointed = over his=20 shoulder, "Best damned maintained piece of track on the entire = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad!  Gets inspected EVERY DAY by the Trainmaster=20 himself!"
 
I=20 found the picture at :  http://www.trainweb.= org/horseshoecurve-nrhs
and go to the Altoona and Juniata photos = page and=20 scroll down to the bottom right hand photo, in case you had trouble locating=20 it.
 
Bill Volkmer
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 Weinland
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:08=20 PM
To: PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] = Altoona's ROSE=20 Tower

I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic = over the=20 past few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I = found=20 this list!=20

I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking = for=20 information on the various towers there with special interest in = my=20 current project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at:=20

http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecur= ve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/ALVERY%20red%20bridge.jpg=20

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the = building=20 look like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand = experience that=20 they would care to share with me?=20

Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The=20 photographer is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are = the=20 passenger tracks that run north of the freight yard and south of = the=20 shops. 2) The main building is brick. The Tower addition on the = south west=20 corner is wooden. 3) The main brick building is 25 feet deep and = 45 feet=20 long. The two lower floors are almost 21 feet tall. The third = floor is=20 just over 11 feet tall. 4) The wooden tower addition to the = building=20 protrudes 3 feet out to the west of the building. It appears that = it also=20 protrudes 3 feet out to the south (unseen). 5) The tower is 14 = feet on the=20 west side and I think it's about 17 feet across the south (unseen) = side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 inches high.=20

I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 = sides. I=20 don't even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any = of the=20 other Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also = be=20 greatly appreciated.=20

Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post = here.=20 Thanks in advance.=20

Ron

rkweinland@knology.net

------=_NextPart_000_00E9_01C2DBE2.5F8DB710-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:33:18 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Scenery David Says: >I am after some photos >of certain areas to help me decide on location: > >(1) Elmira branch, particularly any photos of the bridges mentioned on the >KC website; You need the Elmira branch book...its OOP, but you can still find copies if you look hard enough! >(2) Spruce Creek tunnels and stone bridges; >(3) Atglen & Susquehanna Branch bridges; The double bridges at Safe Harbor (Conestoga Creek, incorrectly called Pequa Creek in Harumph!) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/SafeHarbor.JPEG and from terra-server http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?S=10&T=1&X=1908&Y=22101&Z=18&W =2 I also have the terra server views of PORT (where the C&PD and A&S join in a double track "flyover"), as well as some scans of that bridge from a list member. The bridge at Martic Forge on the A&S (Pequa Creek) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/MarticForge.JPEG For some layout ideas, here is my planned A&S, C&PD and Octarao Branch layout. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Homerr.html >(4) Any typical Pennsy looking tunnels or bridges - see next paragraph. Some additional bridge links at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR.html Frazier tunnel (C&PD) on terra server http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?S=10&T=1&X=1975&Y=21986&Z=18&W =2 > I am also sometimes tempted to build a fictitious layout along the lines >of John Armstrong's Schuylkill Division layout in his book Creative Model >Railroad Design. "Four tracks disappear into three portals in high fill >supporting three upper level tracks - pure Pennsy!" he writes. However, >although I have a few books I've never seen a Pennsy flyover that looks >quite like this. Admittedly most of my PRR books are Lines West, so maybe >I'm looking in the wrong area. You can "get away" with fictitious PRR locations, but these sometimes don't fly when you want to show off your work to fellow Pennsy fans, mainly becuase they see that it isn't a real place. As always with layout design, you need to back off your desires to a realistic level...flyovers are great and REAL PRR, but they eat space...likewise, a 3 or 4 track main is way cool, but requires miles of staging just to support the traffic volume. For more design ideas, I would try to focus in on a specific period, and type of traffic (steam? elcetric? diseasel?) and then look for additional books. There are a number of "trackside" type publications now that cover locations or branches in depth. The books you list are more devoted to motive power than location. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:22:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: HIGHLINER HELP --part1_a3.3b423307.2b8b92cf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you cannot easily find the products Ben mentions, ask for model aircraft canopy cement (same stuff) or jewelers watch crystal cement (same stuff.) --part1_a3.3b423307.2b8b92cf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you cannot easily find the products Ben me= ntions, ask for model aircraft canopy cement (same stuff) or jewelers watch=20= crystal cement (same stuff.) --part1_a3.3b423307.2b8b92cf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Taverna" Subject: [PRR] P-70 roof vents Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:01:41 -0500 List, The roof vents on the P70's were indeed changed when the car was air conditioned. I and a friend have been on the roof of a P70 to take pictures of the vents. The original vents were capped with a flat round plate that was soldered or welded to the pipe from the interior after the cap was removed from the existing vent. A new larger vent was added at the mid point of the car. These vents appear to be the same vents as used on the ends of the later rebuilds. I cannot locate the pictures offhand but some good side views are in the Sweetland book on PRR Coaches. Jim Taverna _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:12:17 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 roof vents I too have found roof fotos hard to find. Perhaps its because most railfans stand on the ground when they take pictures. I'm guessing that's why most model RRers spend lots of time on underbody details and almost no time on roofs! That said, I have always detailed my ALCO/E&BV/ECW P70 roofs in two ways. Non AC cars have the 10 roof vents provided with an electrical bus made of .015 wire running down the side of them and starting and ending in a junction box made from a square piece of small channel mounted over the vestibules, flanges down. Similar junction boxes are mounted alongside each ventilator and the bus passes through the boxes. That's why I use channel. AC P70s have a piece of 1/16 rod representing the capped vent holes and one ventilator in the middle. lAter AC P70s (P70frs, P70fbs, P70fars) have only one vent at the end, both ends for the FBR. BTW, Morgan, I always thought the ECW details were downright delicate when compared to the rubber mold copies made by Bachmann! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > PRR List, > > I latched onto some of the old ALCO passenger car kits. While > checking photos for finishing details, I noticed that the roof vents > changed on the cars with clerestory style roofs at the time the ice > activated air-conditioning was added. > > Referencing the Liljestrand/Sweetland book, Passenger Equipment of > the Penna. Railroad, Vol. 1: Coaches, published by The Railroad > Press, the front cover shows two cars with the original style vents > and probably mechanical air-conditioning(?). On page 21 both styles > of roof vents are shown in the two photos. Were the original vents > capped and a lone old style vent added mid-length along the roof line > when the ice air-conditioning was added?? Or if not capped, what > type of vent is this and is there a detail piece made in HO scale to > dulplicate it with?? > > Can anyone direct me to an overhead photo of the ice air-conditioned > P70 coach? If the old vents were capped, I would like to get a good > look at the construction to see exactly how to model these. > > Many thanks in advance, > > Evan Leisey > > PS Was ALCO Models the forerunner of Eastern Car Works? The kits > seem very similar in many respects. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:26:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Scenery On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Bruce F. Smith wrote: > The double bridges at Safe Harbor (Conestoga Creek, incorrectly called > Pequa Creek in Harumph!) He didn't even spell Pequea right? I don't have my copy handy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:11:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way --part1_1ab.115a1435.2b8bac50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend used homasote that he had painted one side of then nailed it down and it all over the place. Should it be glued down? and I assume all sides painted to seal it versus one side. Mike Schock --part1_1ab.115a1435.2b8bac50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A friend used homasote that he had painted one side of= then nailed it down and it all over the place.  Should it be glued dow= n? and I assume all sides painted to seal it versus one side.

Mike Schock
 --part1_1ab.115a1435.2b8bac50_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:19:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Mail Storage Cars From: Jerry Britton I'd like to submit a new angle on an old subject... In various passenger makeup books/consist reports, there are many references to specific mail storage cars, such as "B60", "X29", or "R50". But sometimes the requirement is for a "MS60, B60, or R50". In previous discussions, it's been the opinion that the underlying requirement was for 60' of mail storage space. Some held the opinion that two X29's might also be used. In providing 60' of mail storage space, might they have ever used a BM class car, such as a BM70k, or BM70m? The presence of windows, or mail bag racks may have precluded such use. While we're on the subject, is there any reason they would not have used a spare "messenger equipped B60" when the requirement was for a "B60"? That is, would they run a "messenger designated" car without an attendant inside? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:21:11 -0500 Subject: END THREAD Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way From: Listmaster On 2/24/03 12:11 PM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com (USMCnewdog25431@cs.com) wrote: > A friend used homasote that he had painted one side of then nailed it down and > it all over the place. Should it be glued down? and I assume all sides > painted to seal it versus one side. > Please end this thread. As originally posted, this thread was about the profile of a four track RoW and was Pennsy-oriented. The subject matter now at hand would be more appropriate for the Layout Design SIG list or the Layout Construction list. Thanks! ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:27:32 EST Subject: Re: END THREAD Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way --part1_30.39683d46.2b8bb004_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about that! When I read further down my questions were answered, so this is finished! Mike Schock --part1_30.39683d46.2b8bb004_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry about that!  When I read further down my qu= estions were answered, so this is finished!

Mike Schock
 --part1_30.39683d46.2b8bb004_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Scenery Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:32:28 -0500 David Honner wrote: " I am also sometimes tempted to build a fictitious layout along the lines of John Armstrong's Schuylkill Division layout in his book Creative Model Railroad Design. "Four tracks disappear into three portals in high fill supporting three upper level tracks - pure Pennsy!" he writes. However, although I have a few books I've never seen a Pennsy flyover that looks quite like this. Admittedly most of my PRR books are Lines West, so maybe I'm looking in the wrong area." David, I just finished building this layout (converted to HO) If you like to run trains and not do any switching it's a great layout. However it does not have a lot of storage capacity. The grade also tend to get a little steep in HO. The layout unsceniced looks like a spaghetti bowl. However the flying junction looks great and is ingenious in its design. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:15:56 +0000 From: Christian Schonberger Subject: [PRR] PRR book This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QfNljARRC8lS+ncm9E+9Tw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello all, Found this book at Barnes and Noble: The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s by Don Ball They ask US$ 50 Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars. Any answers highly appreciated Best regards Christian --Boundary_(ID_QfNljARRC8lS+ncm9E+9Tw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hello all,

Found this book at Barnes and Noble:

The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s
by Don Ball
 
They ask US$ 50
Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars.
 
Any answers highly appreciated
 
Best regards
 
Christian
--Boundary_(ID_QfNljARRC8lS+ncm9E+9Tw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:20:58 +0000 Excellent book. That is about what it sold for originally. All color pictures of 99.5% PRR equipment. Works it's way from Penn Station westward. Photography from that era was limited by film speed (usually 25 ASA) and the pages are not glossy but a very good resource in my opinion. I am glad to have a copy. > Hello all, > > Found this book at Barnes and Noble: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s > by Don Ball > > They ask US$ 50 > > Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer > ratings are all five stars. > > Any answers highly appreciated > > Best regards > > Christian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:25:08 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book > Hello all,Found this book at Barnes and Noble:The Pennsylvania >Railroad: The 1940s-1950sby Don Ball They ask US$ 50 Does anyone have >this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are >all five stars. Any answers highly appreciated Best regards >Christian Christian, It is a "coffee-table" book of outstanding (mostly color) photogrpahs. As such, there is plenty of material in the photos to keep any SPF drooling. The text is limited to captions, usually describing location, with some additional information. I rate it *****!!!! A must have for the PRR fan's library (that's up to around 20-25 books and growing!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:00:23 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book Christian- I got one for the same price. I think its excellent for the pictures. For me it represents the timeframe and region I want to model. --- Christian Schonberger wrote: > Hello all, > > Found this book at Barnes and Noble: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s > by Don Ball > > They ask US$ 50 > > Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference > for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars. > > > Any answers highly appreciated > > Best regards > > Christian > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:22:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, Has anyone tried weathering with fireplace ashes? I am modeling Altoona and environs, and it seems to me that "soot" as we used to call it in Altoona would be ably modeled using the various ash textures found in a fireplace. What would listers stabilize such weathering with? Steve -- Stephen H. Prosser, Ph.D., J.D. Holliston. MA sprosser@attbi.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:27:52 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] brass diamond plate Hi All, I am working on an old Alco Models RS3. I want to add battery (or equipment?) boxes to the deck by the cab doors. Does anyone know where I can get sheets of brass simulated diamond plate? I think something in the range of .010 - 015 thick would be good. I could go thicker if I had to. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net because I do not receive email from most of my Yahoo groups. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:29:02 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book --------------A342A5C6050457CC09BE6A58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is absolutely superb. Don Ball passed away just a month or so before this book was released. This book is a true monument to his artistry. He put exceptional effort into matching the images on the pages, and the collection of photographs and text flows through the book from east to west, ending in St. Louis. Don't just focus on the pictures - the supporting text is also a very good read. Start at the beginning because the entire text flows through the volume. If I had to choose between this book and all the "color guides" together, this book would win hands down. Christian Schonberger wrote: > Hello all, > > Found this book at Barnes and Noble: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s > by Don Ball They ask US$ 50Does anyone have this book. Is it a good > reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars. Any > answers highly appreciated Best regards Christian --------------A342A5C6050457CC09BE6A58 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is absolutely superb.  Don Ball passed away just a month or so before this book was released.  This book is a true monument to his artistry. He put exceptional effort into matching the images on the pages, and the collection of photographs and text flows through the book from east to west, ending in St. Louis.

 Don't just focus on the pictures - the supporting text is also a very good read. Start at the beginning because the entire text flows through the volume.

If I had to choose between this book and all the "color guides" together, this book would win hands down.

Christian Schonberger wrote:

Hello all,

Found this book at Barnes and Noble:

The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s
by Don Ball They ask US$ 50Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars. Any answers highly appreciated Best regards Christian

--------------A342A5C6050457CC09BE6A58-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:30:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book In a message dated 2/24/03 4:16:03 PM Central Standard Time, chrissch@iol.pt writes: << Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars. >> It was one of the first good color books on the PRR. Excellent book. Just an opinion, but my feeling about Don Ball's books is that they have a higher percentage of accuracy in the text and photo legends than many other books. Again, just an opinion which others are free to flame:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:31:48 -0700 Chris, This is an excellent book, well worth the asking price. I've owned a copy since it came out and enjoy reading it over and over again. I think some of the caption information could be taken with a grain of salt (but then what book is 100% accurate), and I think the emphasis is heavily on the east as opposed to middle (or even the western end) of the road (Altoona, for example is about 3/4 of the way through). Notwithstanding these minor shortcomings I would highly recommend it for your library. And it was the first all-color photo book on the PRR...My only regret is that Mr Ball died of a heart attack just before it was published and he never saw the final product. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:49:37 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Wow, using fireplace ashes for weathering is probably not a long-term good idea. Fireplace ashes are not chemically neutral. I don't know if they would adversely react with plastic or paint finishes over time (several years?) Would some of the chemist people like to comment on this? If you do use fireplace ashes, good 'ol Testors Dullcote would seal in the ashes. I would suggest colored chalks as a safer alternative. Larger craft stores (like "Michaels") carry these chalks in the painting aisle. Others have used the chalks for years for weathering without problems. Dale "Stephen H. Prosser" wrote: > Dear Listers, > > Has anyone tried weathering with fireplace ashes? I am modeling Altoona and > environs, and it seems to me that "soot" as we used to call it in Altoona > would be ably modeled using the various ash textures found in a fireplace. > What would listers stabilize such weathering with? > > Steve > > -- > Stephen H. Prosser, Ph.D., J.D. > Holliston. MA > sprosser@attbi.com > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:08:48 -0500 Steve: Watch out for ashes and soot. Ashes can be very base in chemistry and interact poorly with different metals. Soot can be greasy and/or have creosote. Both items can be bad for your skin. I tried these items a long time ago and decided the problems weren't worth the results. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen H. Prosser" To: Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:22 PM Subject: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > Dear Listers, > > Has anyone tried weathering with fireplace ashes? I am modeling Altoona and > environs, and it seems to me that "soot" as we used to call it in Altoona > would be ably modeled using the various ash textures found in a fireplace. > What would listers stabilize such weathering with? > > Steve > > > -- > Stephen H. Prosser, Ph.D., J.D. > Holliston. MA > sprosser@attbi.com > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:57:43 +0000 From: Christian Schonberger Subject: [PRR] just ordered the PRR book This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Rxcf/tEYOcW8U0tK1ZFn+Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks all for your recommendation regarding the PRR book by the late Mr. Ball. Just ordered my copy :-) Best Christian --Boundary_(ID_Rxcf/tEYOcW8U0tK1ZFn+Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Thanks all for your recommendation regarding the PRR book by the late Mr. Ball.
 
Just ordered my copy :-)
 
Best
 
Christian
--Boundary_(ID_Rxcf/tEYOcW8U0tK1ZFn+Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:22:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dale, Lew and Listers, Thanks for the warnings on the chemical nature of ashes. I've tried them on an AMB Laserkit (wood obviously) and darned if it doesn't look like Altoona "soot". It'll be interesting to see what happens to the wood over time. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jean Sterrett" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:31:47 -0500 -- Jean Sterrett jss318@voicenet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Paskos" To: "PRRlist" Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way > Thanks Lew; > Those are good suggestions for me as I already have a work in progress, But > I haven't gone so far as to be ready to ballast. > > Phil > > > > Phil: > > > > Here are some suggestions to follow to make your roadbed -whatever kind > you > > want to use, especially Homasote - work better and not warp. I used to > use > > a homasote product that was milled to profile and cut partially across to > > make it flexible enough to curve. After installing the roadbed, take > > drywall compound on a narrow putty knife, same width as your roadbed > > surface, and go over the entire roadbed. This levels and fills in any > gaps > > or holes, after all, dry wall compound is cheaper than ballast. When > dry, > > lightly sand smooth with a flat sanding block. If you notice any low > spots > > when sanding, more compound may be in order. This is a good time to > check > > your roadbed shoulder profile too, especially on the viewing side. Check > > out any low spots very carefully to make sure the roadbed doesn't need > > reinstalling. After the compound dries, your roadbed should be almost > > perfectly level with no dips or spaces within your roadbed splices and > > connections. Paint it dark (or light) gray to match your ballast color, > > with latex wall paint. Overlap the roadbed color onto the table top > about > > 1" on either side. This seals the roadbed and colors it so if you don't > get > > a perfect coverage with your ballast, it won't be noticeable. After the > > latex paint dries, you can saturate the ballast to your heart's content > and > > won't get any warpage. I use a very dark gray paint on top of flat > Homasote > > sheets for yard areas, the dark paint matches the cinders. Works well > with > > tan for mud, etc. Remember, you only get one EASY chance to make your > > roadbed and track perfect before all the scenery goes on. > > > > Lew > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:17:16 -0500 List, I've used cigarette ashes in my ashpit over Woodland Scenics cinders. Looks right to me. Don't think they'll affect the cork roadbed or plywood base! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen H. Prosser" To: Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > Dale, Lew and Listers, > > Thanks for the warnings on the chemical nature of ashes. I've tried them on > an AMB Laserkit (wood obviously) and darned if it doesn't look like Altoona > "soot". It'll be interesting to see what happens to the wood over time. > > Steve > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "" Date: Mon, 24 Feb 03 13:49:18 -0500 Subject: Press From AOBO AOBO

 Home Page - Company Info 

.

AOBO Completes Purchase of Soybean Protein Peptide Project
January 28, 2003 12:06:00 PM ET

HONG KONG, Jan. 28 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- American Oriental Bioengineering Inc. (OTC Bulletin Board: AOBO) announced that its board of directors has approved the completion of the Soybean Protein Peptide project purchase, worth an estimated $40 million, effective immediately.

On October 11, 2002, AOBO filed an Information Statement Pursuant to Section 14(c) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, announcing that a total of 20,284,810 shares of Common Stock and 1,000,000 shares of Class A Preferred Stock will be issued by AOBO in consideration for 100% ownership interest in a soybean protein peptide biochemical engineering project (the "Project") as described in the Purchase Agreement dated as of August 17, 2002 signed by Shujun Liu and AOBO. The value of the Common Stock to be issued is approximately $3,205,000, which is equivalent to $0.158 per share of common stock, which is the average of the closing price for the five-day period immediately following the date of the Purchase Agreement, August 19, 2002 to August 23, 2002. By acquiring the Project, among other assets, AOBO will acquire ownership of the building housing the Project's manufacturing plant, manufacturing equipment, and environmental control equipment of which the historical cost is approximately $3,205,000.

In addition, AOBO will receive the right to produce the products that resulted from the Project as well as ownership rights on a pending patent in China for the process of the extraction and production of soybean peptide. The Project, including the production, marketing and sales of various functional soybean peptide medical tablets and powders, has a fair market value of $40,406,000.

About American Oriental Bioengineering, Inc.

American Oriental Bioengineering, Inc. is a leading Chinese nutracuetical company that uses proprietary processes for producing soybean protein peptide more efficiently than traditional extracting techniques. These techniques are used to manufacture and formulate supplemental and medicinal products. The Company focuses on new product research to combine biotechnology and Chinese medical technology to capture the increasing demand for traditional Chinese medicines and health supplements, both domestically and internationally. Soybean peptides are used widely in general food and health food products, sports foods, medicines, fermentation industry and in environmental protection applications

Safe Harbor Statement

Except for the historical statements made herein, the statements made in this release are forward-looking statements, including. Risk factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those projected in forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, general business conditions, managing growth, and political and other business risks. Although the Company believes that the forward-looking statements contained herein are reasonable, it can give no assurance that the Company's expectations are correct. All forward-looking statements are expressly qualified in their entirety by this Cautionary Statement and the risks and other factors detailed in the Company's reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

China Contact: Lily Li
86-451-6666601
F: 86-451-6690967
aobo@biosly.com

Hong Kong Contact: Clarence Chan
852-9522-3111
F: 852-2829-7410
sly@biosly.com

Investor Contact: Harvey Goralnick/David Zazoff
FOCUS Partners LLC
212-752-9445
aobo@focuspartners.com

© 2003 PRNewswire

more...

AOBO Completes Purchase of Soybean Protein Peptide Project
12:06 pm - PR Newswire
Friday January 24, 2003

AOBO Expects to Have a Total of 65 Enuresis Soft Gel Clinics Operating in 2003
9:14 am - PR Newswire
Tuesday January 14, 2003

AOBO Expands Into Japan; Signs LOI to Export Its Soybean Protein Peptide Products
9:28 am - PR Newswire
Monday January 6, 2003

AOBO Enters the Hong Kong Market
10:25 am - PR Newswire 

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:47:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Walthers PRR R50b Express Reefer List, Yesterday someone mentioned Walthers lacking to place end numbers on this R50b car . Someone then replied that it wasn't required. What does "required" mean? Was it they didn't need to apply the number and some did . or does that mean they didn't receive the end numbers at all? Take a look at this r50b photo on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2161268105&category=1445 This apears to be a builders photo. The end number is plainly visible. Is this "not required" have a specific time frame or ? Just curious. Need to know if I want to apply them for my era.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:09:40 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass diamond plate Hi Bill, Since you didn't mention which scale you are working in, I will assume you are working in the same scale I am working in. In N scale, use Gold Medal Models 160-62 Diamond-Pattern Non-Skid Steel Plating It's a little coarse for N scale, and would probably be quite alright for HO as well. - Claus > Hi All, > > I am working on an old Alco Models RS3. I want to add battery (or > equipment?) boxes to the deck by the cab doors. Does anyone know where I can > get sheets of brass simulated diamond plate? I think something in the range > of .010 - 015 thick would be good. I could go thicker if I had to. Please > reply to billlane@comcast.net because I do not receive email from most of my > Yahoo groups. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:04:12 +0000 The amount of harmful materials would be at a minimum and in my opinion wouldn't have any adverse eeffect on much of anything. Remember people have to smoke for many yaers in most cases before getting cancer. The big problem to me is whether you are tolerant of the smell or not. Nothing looks like the real thing in any case. > Wow, using fireplace ashes for weathering is probably not a long-term good idea. > Fireplace ashes are not chemically neutral. I don't know if they would adversely > react with plastic or paint finishes over time (several years?) > > Would some of the chemist people like to comment on this? > > If you do use fireplace ashes, good 'ol Testors Dullcote would seal in the > ashes. > > I would suggest colored chalks as a safer alternative. Larger craft stores (like > "Michaels") carry these chalks in the painting aisle. Others have used the > chalks for years for weathering without problems. > > Dale > > > > "Stephen H. Prosser" wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Has anyone tried weathering with fireplace ashes? I am modeling Altoona and > > environs, and it seems to me that "soot" as we used to call it in Altoona > > would be ably modeled using the various ash textures found in a fireplace. > > What would listers stabilize such weathering with? > > > > Steve > > > > -- > > Stephen H. Prosser, Ph.D., J.D. > > Holliston. MA > > sprosser@attbi.com > > -- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:10:55 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR book FWIW, not only is it a great book with excellent pictures, it has the ONLY picture I have ever seen showing a clear view of the roof of a New Haven EP3. And it includes a photo of a Q2 by former friend and Houston Model RR Club member, the late Joe Thompson. Joe's obit is in the March issue of Trains Mag. Steve Bartlett Christian Schonberger wrote: ... The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s by Don Ball ... Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? ... Any answers highly appreciated Best regards Christian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:16:53 -0500 Gregg: I believe your scale models are safe by you using cigarette ash because all the volatile and dangerous chemistry of the tobacco combustion process has been removed by your lungs. :-) Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Stephen H. Prosser" ; Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > List, > > I've used cigarette ashes in my ashpit over Woodland Scenics cinders. Looks > right to me. Don't think they'll affect the cork roadbed or plywood base! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen H. Prosser" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > > > > Dale, Lew and Listers, > > > > Thanks for the warnings on the chemical nature of ashes. I've tried them > on > > an AMB Laserkit (wood obviously) and darned if it doesn't look like > Altoona > > "soot". It'll be interesting to see what happens to the wood over time. > > > > Steve > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:31:48 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Walthers PRR R50b Express Reefer It may be a matter of era. Note that the car in the photo is lettered for "American Railway Express". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Yesterday someone mentioned Walthers lacking to place end numbers > on this R50b car . Someone then replied that it wasn't required. What > does "required" mean? Was it they didn't need to apply the number and > some did . or does that mean they didn't receive the end numbers at all? > > Take a look at this r50b photo on eBay. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2161268105&category=1445 > > This apears to be a builders photo. The end number is plainly visible. > Is this "not required" have a specific time frame or ? Just curious. > Need to know if I want to apply them for my era.....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:54:46 -0500 No, Lew, Actually, I had give up that filthy habit years before I used the ashes from other folks' cigarettes on my ash pit. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" ; "Gregg Mahlkov" Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > Gregg: > > I believe your scale models are safe by you using cigarette ash because all > the volatile and dangerous chemistry of the tobacco combustion process has > been removed by your lungs. :-) > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > To: "Stephen H. Prosser" ; > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:17 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > > > > List, > > > > I've used cigarette ashes in my ashpit over Woodland Scenics cinders. > Looks > > right to me. Don't think they'll affect the cork roadbed or plywood base! > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stephen H. Prosser" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:22 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > > > > > > > Dale, Lew and Listers, > > > > > > Thanks for the warnings on the chemical nature of ashes. I've tried > them > > on > > > an AMB Laserkit (wood obviously) and darned if it doesn't look like > > Altoona > > > "soot". It'll be interesting to see what happens to the wood over time. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:39:45 -0500 Congratulations! As befitting a PRR "no smoke" rule. :-) Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > No, Lew, > > Actually, I had give up that filthy habit years before I used the ashes from > other folks' cigarettes on my ash pit. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" ; "Gregg Mahlkov" > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > > > > Gregg: > > > > I believe your scale models are safe by you using cigarette ash because > all > > the volatile and dangerous chemistry of the tobacco combustion process has > > been removed by your lungs. :-) > > > > Lew > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > To: "Stephen H. Prosser" ; > > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > I've used cigarette ashes in my ashpit over Woodland Scenics cinders. > > Looks > > > right to me. Don't think they'll affect the cork roadbed or plywood > base! > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Stephen H. Prosser" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:22 PM > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathering with Ashes? > > > > > > > > > > Dale, Lew and Listers, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the warnings on the chemical nature of ashes. I've tried > > them > > > on > > > > an AMB Laserkit (wood obviously) and darned if it doesn't look like > > > Altoona > > > > "soot". It'll be interesting to see what happens to the wood over > time. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:00:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book In a message dated 2/24/03 4:16:14 PM, chrissch@iol.pt writes: << Found this book at Barnes and Noble: The Pennsylvania Railroad: The 1940s-1950s by Don Ball They ask US$ 50 Does anyone have this book. Is it a good reference for the modeler? Cutomer ratings are all five stars. >> ************************* Don't know anything about the book, but you might want to check eBay to see if anyone is willing to sell a copy for a better price. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] GG-1's Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:11:53 +0000 Just visited BLI's web page and my opinion is the G isn't going to be worth the price. I don't find the sounds to be a tremendous advantage with something so quiet anyway. The gap between the nose and pilot appears as big or bigger than what is currently available. IHC is selling G's on their web site for $51.99 with free shipping over $45 on any order. I'd rather have seven IHC's than one BLI engine but to each their own. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:21:46 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Union Transportation Co. question The following is from the ICC Valuation Report on the U. T. Co.: The carrier was incorporated July 17, 1888, under the general laws of the State of New Jersey, for the purpose of leasing and operating a portion of the road now owned by the Pennsylvania and Atlantic. This is from a caption on a picture in a 1956 Trains magazine: Her famous life suddenly cut short, Pennsy B6 , 0-6-0 , 5244 sits disconsolately in the 46th Street Yard in Philadelphia July 17 after diesel bumped her off Union Transportation short line in NJ. She was the last Pennsylvania engine under steam. The question: How long after 1956 did the U. T. Co. continue to exist? Does it still exist? Inquiring minds and all that. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1's Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:06:20 -0500 This seems to be my opinion too. Also, if you examine the sample pictures - http://www.broadway-limited.com/gg1thumb/gg1sampleshots.jpg - the end of the unit appears round. If this is true, there is no reason for me to even look at the engine. I have asked the question about the shape of the end before with no response. Does anybody really know if the end is formed correctly? Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [SMTP:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 11:12 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] GG-1's Just visited BLI's web page and my opinion is the G isn't going to be worth the price. I don't find the sounds to be a tremendous advantage with something so quiet anyway. The gap between the nose and pilot appears as big or bigger than what is currently available. IHC is selling G's on their web site for $51.99 with free shipping over $45 on any order. I'd rather have seven IHC's than one BLI engine but to each their own. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:38:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Re: (STMFC) Walthers PRR R50b Express Reefer --part1_40.2c24ec6c.2b8d0433_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all, The following info is provided to clarify dates when painting and lettering changes were made to PRR R50b Express Reefers: >From PRR D85733 issued 7-5-28 latest reissue 7-9-36 (from PC Railroader March-April 1975 Page 40) "Material for letters and numerals change from gold leaf to buff lettering color. 7-9-36" "AMERICAN RAILWAY EXPRESS has been changed to RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY, INC. 4-4-29" "The word incorporated has been removed. 10-15-29" "Car number on end of car removed. 8-14-30" "Specifications for interior and exterior painting have been added. 4-30-31" "-Exterior Painting" Letters and numerals to be standard buff lettering color applied with a spray stencil. Letters and numerals to be edged with 1/16" black line. Body, painted Tuscan red Roof, painted Metallic brown Trucks, painted Olive Iron work, painted Black Handholds, painted Black enamel Letters for "PENNSYLVANIA" and number on left portion of car side were the standard style for that period and 6" Ht. Letters for "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" and "REFRIGERATOR" on the right portion of the car side were the standard style for that period and 4" Ht. >From PRR Tracing C-413747 dated 4-6-38 (from "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Painting and Lettering" by Charles Blardone, Jr. and Peter Tilp, PRRT&HS 1988, Page 25. The above tracing does not cover R50b express reefers, but it is likely that specifications for painting and lettering headend cars (other than the Buff color for lettering) applied. "This tracing supercedes (previous tracings) which have been made obsolete on account of replacing present type of lettering with 'Futura' letters and numerals... 4-12-38" "-Exterior Painting-" Body - Tuscan Red Roof - Car Cement Trucks - Olive Iron work - Black Handholds - Black Lettering and numerals outlined with 1/16" black line "Reference to letters and numerals outlined with 1/16" black line crossed out on account of discontinuing the practice. 4-17-39" >From PRR D-unknown issued 10-19-43 latest reissue 6-24-55 (from Rails Northeast, February 1979, Pages 26-31) for various PRR headend cars including R50b "This tracing, with tracing C-429418, supercedes Tracing C-413746 and C-413747 which have been made obsolete on account of changing from Futura to block type letters and numerals. also changing specifications for painting on account of painting all equipment under car body Tuscan Red except trucks which are black. 9-29-43" "-Exterior Painting-" Letters and Numerals - Buff Body - Tuscan Red Roof - Black Trucks - Black (crossed out), Truck Green Handholds - Black Underframe & equipment below body - Tuscan Red (crossed out), Truck Green "Truck Green Enamel has been specified for all equipment below car body also for step treads and platform floors. 9-7-44" "Specifications for exterior painting crossed off, see F-433145. 5-25-45" (This is probably when the Truck Green color was changed back to Black.) "Lettering relative to RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" has been crossed off to conform to new contract with Railway Express Agency, Inc. 2-17-54" Drawings of the R50b in the 1937 and 1943 Car Builders Cyclopedia show safety appliances as the existed when the car was built. (No ladder on side and ladders located on the right on car ends.) PRR photos E13409, E13410, and E13411 dated 1-6-42 show revised locations of safety appliances. (Ladder on side of car and ladders on the left of car ends plus rearrangement of hand grabs, brake wheel, etc.) E13410 is shown in the 1943 cyc. The car in the photos, #2670, is in the pre-Futura scheme. I do not know when the changes in safety appliances occurred. I hope that the above answers many of the questions about the changes to the R50b's over the years. I think that few R50b's were ever redone with Futura lettering. Regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_40.2c24ec6c.2b8d0433_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings to all,

The following info is provided to clarify dates when painting and lettering=20= changes were made to PRR R50b Express Reefers:

>From PRR D85733 issued 7-5-28 latest reissue 7-9-36 (from PC Railroader Marc= h-April 1975 Page 40)

"Material for letters and numerals change from gold leaf to buff lettering c= olor. 7-9-36"

"AMERICAN RAILWAY EXPRESS has been changed to RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY, INC. 4= -4-29"

"The word incorporated has been removed. 10-15-29"

"Car number on end of car removed. 8-14-30"

"Specifications for interior and exterior painting have been added. 4-30-31"=

"-Exterior Painting"
Letters and numerals to be standard buff lettering color applied with a spra= y stencil.  Letters and numerals to be edged with 1/16" black line.
Body, painted     Tuscan red
Roof, painted      Metallic brown
Trucks, painted   Olive
Iron work, painted  Black
Handholds, painted  Black enamel

Letters for "PENNSYLVANIA" and number on left portion of car side were the s= tandard style for that period  and 6" Ht.

Letters for "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" and "REFRIGERATOR" on the right portion= of the car side were the standard style for that period and 4" Ht.

>From PRR Tracing C-413747 dated 4-6-38 (from "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenge= r Painting and Lettering" by Charles Blardone, Jr. and Peter Tilp, PRRT&= HS 1988, Page 25.

The above tracing does not cover R50b express reefers, but it is likely that= specifications for painting and lettering headend cars (other than the Buff= color for lettering) applied.

"This tracing supercedes (previous tracings) which have been made obsolete o= n account of replacing present type of lettering with 'Futura' letters and n= umerals...
4-12-38"

"-Exterior Painting-"
Body - Tuscan Red
Roof - Car Cement
Trucks - Olive
Iron work - Black
Handholds - Black
Lettering and numerals outlined with 1/16" black line

"Reference to letters and numerals outlined with 1/16" black line crossed ou= t on account of discontinuing the practice. 4-17-39"

>From PRR D-unknown issued 10-19-43 latest reissue 6-24-55 (from Rails Northe= ast, February 1979, Pages 26-31) for various PRR headend cars including R50b=

"This tracing, with tracing C-429418, supercedes Tracing C-413746 and C-4137= 47
which have been made obsolete on account of changing from Futura to block ty= pe letters and numerals. also changing specifications for painting on accoun= t of painting all equipment under car body Tuscan Red except trucks which ar= e black. 9-29-43"

"-Exterior Painting-"
Letters and Numerals - Buff
Body - Tuscan Red
Roof - Black
Trucks - Black (crossed out), Truck Green
Handholds - Black
Underframe & equipment below body - Tuscan Red (crossed out), Truck Gree= n

"Truck Green Enamel has been specified for all equipment below car body also= for step treads and platform floors. 9-7-44"

"Specifications for exterior painting crossed off, see F-433145. 5-25-45" (This is probably when the Truck Green color was changed back to Black.)

"Lettering relative to RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" has been crossed off to confo= rm to new contract with Railway Express Agency, Inc. 2-17-54"

Drawings of the R50b in the 1937 and 1943 Car Builders Cyclopedia show safet= y appliances as the existed when the car was built. (No ladder on side and l= adders located on the right on car ends.)  PRR photos E13409, E13410, a= nd E13411 dated 1-6-42 show revised locations of safety appliances. (Ladder=20= on side of car and ladders on the left of car ends plus rearrangement of han= d grabs, brake wheel, etc.)
E13410 is shown in the 1943 cyc.  The car in the photos, #2670, is in t= he pre-Futura scheme.  I do not know when the changes in safety applian= ces occurred.

I hope that the above answers many of the questions about the changes to the= R50b's over the years.  I think that few R50b's were ever redone with=20= Futura lettering.

Regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92


 --part1_40.2c24ec6c.2b8d0433_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:03:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Union Transportation Co. question --part1_1cd.3a2174b.2b8d09ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/25/03 11:30:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > The question: How long after 1956 did the U. T. Co. continue to > exist? Does it still exist? Greetings, The last run was made on March 31, 1977 with Penn Central GE 44-tonner (ex-PRR) 9999, 3 covered hoppers, and CR cabin car 18677 (ex-LV 95073). The U. T. Co. officially dissolved on May 23, 1981. An excellent history of the line is the book, "Pemberton and Hightstown" by John Brinckmann, published by the author in 1987. The hardbound book is about 250 pages with photos and maps. I think it is out of print. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_1cd.3a2174b.2b8d09ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/25/03 11:30:23 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:

The question: How long after 19= 56 did the U. T. Co. continue to
exist? Does it still exist?


Greetings,

The last run was made on March 31, 1977 with Penn Central GE 44-tonner (ex-P= RR) 9999, 3 covered hoppers, and CR cabin car 18677 (ex-LV 95073).  The= U. T. Co. officially dissolved on May 23, 1981.

An excellent history of the line is the book, "Pemberton and Hightstown" by=20= John Brinckmann, published by the author in 1987.  The hardbound book i= s about 250 pages with photos and maps.  I think it is out of print.
Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_1cd.3a2174b.2b8d09ef_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:45:37 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] ECW bought the Alco P70 molds Evan, list, MR reviewed the Alco P70 in the January 1983 issue. The Alco P70 molds were purchased by Eastern Car Works between 1983 (According to the August 1983 MR on page 14, Alco was closing down it's operations) and 1985 (June 1985 MR page 40 has a review of the ECW PB70 and P70FBR (not described as such in the review, but the coach picture is definitely a P70FBR). According to the review "Eastern Car Works purchased the passenger car line..." When I was a teenager, I purchased a few of the P70s in boxes that were the old Alco blue with ECW labels on top of the old Alco ones. I bought a few as recently as 1994 (one of my first pilgrimages to the Timonium show at the tender age of 24...grin!). Doug --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote, in part: > PRR List, > > Was ALCO Models the forerunner of Eastern Car > Works? The kits seem very similar in many respects. > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:00:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1's ndbprr@att.net sez: >Just visited BLI's web page and my opinion is the G isn't going to be >worth the >price. I don't find the sounds to be a tremendous advantage with >something so >quiet anyway. Gary added: >Also, if you examine the sample pictures - >http://www.broadway-limited.com/gg1thumb/gg1sampleshots.jpg > - the end of the unit appears round. If this is true, there is no reason >for me to even look at the engine. You're just going to have to wait along with the rest of us :^( The photos on the web site are preproduction...as the site says "NOTE: These are engineering sample photos and there are some imperfections: Windows will be included on the production units and there will be sharper detail where lettering and lines are applied. Several enhancements will be made." The site continues "Please refrain from using these photos for public discussion as they do not represent the final product. We will make production quality sample photos available as soon as they become available. Your comments are welcomed and appreciated. Please direct all comments to info@broadway-limited.com." Yes, I hope the body sits lower, and yes, I hope that the nose isn't round and yes, I hope that eventually they release the DGLE 5 stripe schemes in the correct numbers. However there are some things y'all appear to be happily overlooking that would make this a "better" model than the Premier.... 1) seperate grabs, window bars, railings, drop step, enddoor barriers, wipers?, doorknobs?! 2) full length ladders 3) pilot and nose details (air and MU hoses) 4) Very nice looking pantograph (far superior to IHC) 5) Brake rigging on trucks 6) Sound...now I know that the GG1 didn't make a lot of ENGINE noises...but on my RR, the first engineer who takes off without the REQUIRED whistle signal is gonna lose his job . IMHO, sound is required for every loco, once you use it operationally. Sound on a GG1 doesn't have to be elaborate...just the bells and whistles, so to speak...but it (sound) is a big plus. Operating without sound is like running undec locos...you're half necked!!! So, on the subject of the BLI GG1, I see some real plusses and some things I wish that they had done differently...I'm probably not going to order an entire fleet this time round, but rather I'll order one (undec, since the DGLE/5 stripe gold is an incorrect #) and see it in person...this will also give me the chance to "fix" the issue of the air intakes and backdate them to 1944, with flush edges with metal strips accross them for the stripes. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:09:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1's From: Jerry Britton On 2/25/03 2:00 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > So, on the subject of the BLI GG1, I see some real plusses and some things > I wish that they had done differently...I'm probably not going to order an > entire fleet this time round The saving grace for those shying away from ordering now, is that they plan to release two numbers (or so) at a time and do more every now and then. So you can see what people think of the first run (this spring) and wait until a later run if you want them. Will just be in different paint schemes. This is, perhaps, an advantage when compared to the M1a/b and T1 offerings which are "one timers"...at least as far as has been revealed to date. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1's Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:20:49 +0000 A couple of comments: 1. "Please refrain from using these photos for public > discussion as they do not represent the final product. We will make > production quality sample photos available as soon as they become > available. Then why did they post them? 2.Sound on a GG1 doesn't have > to be elaborate...just the bells and whistles, so to speak...but it (sound) > is a big plus. Can't that be accomplished with fixed sound generators at say grade crossings? 3.1) seperate grabs, window bars, railings, drop step, enddoor barriers, > wipers?, doorknobs?! > 2) full length ladders > 3) pilot and nose details (air and MU hoses) > 4) Very nice looking pantograph (far superior to IHC) > 5) Brake rigging on trucks Can't argue with those but they could be added for far less than the price of the unit. > ndbprr@att.net sez: > >Just visited BLI's web page and my opinion is the G isn't going to be > >worth the > >price. I don't find the sounds to be a tremendous advantage with > >something so > >quiet anyway. > > Gary added: > >Also, if you examine the sample pictures - > >http://www.broadway-limited.com/gg1thumb/gg1sampleshots.jpg > > - the end of the unit appears round. If this is true, there is no reason > >for me to even look at the engine. > > You're just going to have to wait along with the rest of us :^( The > photos on the web site are preproduction...as the site says "NOTE: These > are engineering sample photos and there are some imperfections: Windows > will be included on the production units and there will be sharper detail > where lettering and lines are applied. Several enhancements will be made." > > The site continues "Please refrain from using these photos for public > discussion as they do not represent the final product. We will make > production quality sample photos available as soon as they become > available. Your comments are welcomed and appreciated. Please direct all > comments to info@broadway-limited.com." > > Yes, I hope the body sits lower, and yes, I hope that the nose isn't round > and yes, I hope that eventually they release the DGLE 5 stripe schemes in > the correct numbers. However there are some things y'all appear to be > happily overlooking that would make this a "better" model than the > Premier.... > 1) seperate grabs, window bars, railings, drop step, enddoor barriers, > wipers?, doorknobs?! > 2) full length ladders > 3) pilot and nose details (air and MU hoses) > 4) Very nice looking pantograph (far superior to IHC) > 5) Brake rigging on trucks > 6) Sound...now I know that the GG1 didn't make a lot of ENGINE > noises...but on my RR, the first engineer who takes off without the > REQUIRED whistle signal is gonna lose his job . IMHO, sound is required > for every loco, once you use it operationally. Sound on a GG1 doesn't have > to be elaborate...just the bells and whistles, so to speak...but it (sound) > is a big plus. Operating without sound is like running undec > locos...you're half necked!!! > > So, on the subject of the BLI GG1, I see some real plusses and some things > I wish that they had done differently...I'm probably not going to order an > entire fleet this time round, but rather I'll order one (undec, since the > DGLE/5 stripe gold is an incorrect #) and see it in person...this will also > give me the chance to "fix" the issue of the air intakes and backdate them > to 1944, with flush edges with metal strips accross them for the stripes. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:27:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1's From: Jerry Britton On 2/25/03 2:20 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > 2.Sound on a GG1 doesn't have >> to be elaborate...just the bells and whistles, so to speak...but it (sound) >> is a big plus. > > Can't that be accomplished with fixed sound generators at say grade crossings? > I disagree. Once you've experienced and operated with on-board sound, there's no turning back. (I can thank Larry Reynolds for that!) Before switching to N scale 2.5 years ago, putting a sound decoder into an N scale loco (dummy) was a pre-requisite for the switch. Fortunately they've since come out with Soundtraxx decoders specifically for N scale, which really helps. It's amazing...something so small making such a big difference! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mtevans@jps.net" Subject: [PRR] Bowser G43 Mill Gondola? Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:39:18 -0500 Dear Jerry, In the "Future" listing on the "Keystone Crossings" web site you show a HO scale PRR Class G43 Mill Gondola coming from Bowser. Do you know what the current status of this car is? Thanks! Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:45:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1's I said: >> 2.Sound on a GG1 doesn't have >>> to be elaborate...just the bells and whistles, so to speak...but it (sound) >>> is a big plus. >> ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: >> Can't that be accomplished with fixed sound generators at say grade >>crossings? Jerry replied >I disagree. Once you've experienced and operated with on-board sound, >there's no turning back. (I can thank Larry Reynolds for that!) And I agree!! Stationary sound just doesn't cut it for trains. Sure, back in the bad old days of sitting there at a big console control in the sky and running trains around in circles, you could press a button for the grade crossing sound about when and where you wanted it...but what about the two whistle blasts to "release brakes", the three for "backing", The appropriate whistle signals for sending out or calling in the flagman, the bell when passing an obstruction, station or bridge.... Many of these signals occur at variable locations...I plan of having the wire train on different parts of the layout at each operating session...and in double track territory, you'll need to warn the crews on the other track of your presence. Additionally, most of these sounds have a realistic doppler effect when mounted in the locomotive that is simply not there in a stationary sound box. No, for OPERATIONS, sound in the loco is where its at...and its been that way for 20+ years...just ask PFM! Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:47:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G43 Mill Gondola? From: Jerry Britton On 2/25/03 2:39 PM, mtevans@jps.net (mtevans@jps.net) wrote: > In the "Future" listing on the "Keystone Crossings" web site you show a HO > scale PRR Class G43 Mill Gondola coming from Bowser. Do you know what the > current status of this car is? Thanks! > Off in the distance... probably two models (HO) down the road. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:22:28 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW bought the Alco P70 molds I believe that E&B Valley ("Quality RR kits for over a fiftieth of a century"!) purchased the Alco dies. Then ECW purchased the E&BV assets. I have Alco blue boxes, E&BV yellow boxes, and ECW red boxes. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Kisala wrote: > Evan, list, > > MR reviewed the Alco P70 in the January 1983 issue. > The Alco P70 molds were purchased by Eastern Car Works > between 1983 (According to the August 1983 MR on page > 14, Alco was closing down it's operations) and 1985 > (June 1985 MR page 40 has a review of the ECW PB70 and > P70FBR (not described as such in the review, but the > coach picture is definitely a P70FBR). According to > the review "Eastern Car Works purchased the passenger > car line..." > > When I was a teenager, I purchased a few of the P70s > in boxes that were the old Alco blue with ECW labels > on top of the old Alco ones. I bought a few as > recently as 1994 (one of my first pilgrimages to the > Timonium show at the tender age of 24...grin!). > > Doug > > --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote, in part: > > PRR List, > > > > Was ALCO Models the forerunner of Eastern Car > > Works? The kits seem very similar in many respects. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:32:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: TAN - cost of [PRR] GG-1's >3.1) seperate grabs, window bars, railings, drop step, enddoor barriers, >> wipers?, doorknobs?! >> 2) full length ladders >> 3) pilot and nose details (air and MU hoses) >> 4) Very nice looking pantograph (far superior to IHC) >> 5) Brake rigging on trucks > ndbprr@att.net sez >Can't argue with those but they could be added for far less than the price of >the unit. Reality check time ...(all prices are list and rounded to the nearest dollar for the sake of comparison) List Price, BLI GG1 $280.00 List Price, P2k/Genesis SD70 $140.00 DSD-150 DCC and sound (List) $170.00 Total $310.00 or Premier GG1 $80.00 (list, since all of the above are list) DSD-150 DCC and sound $170.00 sub total $250.00 for a detailed model to match the BLI details, add: scale pantographs $25.00+ (IF you can find it ) detail parts $20.00 (hoses, ladders, brakes...) Decals $4.00 Paint $1.00 Lead/pennies (weight) $1.00 total $301.00 Some generic sound decoders are less but you want a GG1 horn and bell, not some EMD diseasels, right?!! For a Genesis/P2K quality GG1 with sound and DCC, the list price ought to be in the range of $310.00 (dealer cost ~$150) or HIGHER due to the complex under body. Now, unless I'm missing something here, or you wanted to pay ~$310 for your GG1, it seems to me that a "loss of quality" of roughly 21% over P2K (ie $30/$140) is perfectly reasonably given the costs associated with models. Also it would appear that all those beautiful added details (BLI vs. IHC) are worth in the range of $50 (list) when compared to undetailed models...exactly what the market seems to say for example in P1K vs P2K pricing... BTW, the most likely source of the nose gap on the BLI model (if it is there on the production model) is the minimum radius it can operate at and the need for it to handle less than ideal trackwork...from BLI's perspective, they need it to work on 18" curves to sell enough models. I think that this is a HUGE handicap, but how many of you would whine if it didn't go through #4 turnouts or around the kid's 4x8 table layout? Heck, I'm shocked that they can get the side ladders on!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:33:34 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G43 Mill Gondola? Boy you are a tease! What two models?? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 2/25/03 2:39 PM, mtevans@jps.net (mtevans@jps.net) wrote: > > > In the "Future" listing on the "Keystone Crossings" web site you show a HO > > scale PRR Class G43 Mill Gondola coming from Bowser. Do you know what the > > current status of this car is? Thanks! > > > Off in the distance... probably two models (HO) down the road. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G43 Mill Gondola? Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:00:20 +0000 One has got to be the N-8 Correct? :-) Ted Andrews >From: "Andrew S. Miller" >To: Jerry Britton >CC: mtevans@jps.net, PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G43 Mill Gondola? >Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:33:34 -0500 > >Boy you are a tease! What two models?? > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >================================================== >Jerry Britton wrote: > > > On 2/25/03 2:39 PM, mtevans@jps.net (mtevans@jps.net) wrote: > > > > > In the "Future" listing on the "Keystone Crossings" web site you show >a HO > > > scale PRR Class G43 Mill Gondola coming from Bowser. Do you know what >the > > > current status of this car is? Thanks! > > > > > Off in the distance... probably two models (HO) down the road. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > >-- > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tammra Link" Subject: [PRR] Steam locomotive pilot lettering Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:09:26 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2DCE8.45132080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellas, Finally have most confuser problems worked out and am glad to be = back on "The List". Question: Depending on era, many PRR steam = locomotives have lettering on one or both sides of the pilot. I'm = assuming this may be division and or roundhouse assignments? Anyway, = does anyone have a complete list of what those abbreviations and their = meaning? Thanks for the Help! Matt Link PRR T&HS # 7140 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2DCE8.45132080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fellas,
        = Finally have=20 most confuser problems worked out and am glad to be back on "The = List". =20 Question:  Depending on era, many PRR steam locomotives have = lettering on=20 one or both sides of the pilot. I'm assuming this may be division and or = roundhouse assignments?  Anyway, does anyone have a complete list = of what=20 those abbreviations and their meaning?  Thanks for the=20 Help!
 
Matt Link
PRR T&HS # = 7140
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2DCE8.45132080-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:33:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1's >I have a PFM sound system so I understand the sound side. I have real >trouble >with adding electronics that cost more than the engine however. PFM sound >cost >is roughly $25 per engine. That's the cost of the installation in each engine..the cost of the system certainly adds something to that, but as the fleet grows, so the cost goes down. The real problem for you is that the DCC and PFM are not really compatible so the DCC costs are completely wasted for you...Of course, DCC only runs around $30-$50 list, so most of the "magic smoke" costs are related to the sound card. >us do not have unlimited budgets for modeling. I model the corridor. No >grade >crossings and very few interruptions to the clockers. A bell under 30th st. >and maybe a horn will suffice for me. To each there own as I said in my >original post. N. Bell One station....No interlockings (call for signals (4 shorts), inspect train (one short, one long)? No bridges? No unscheduled stops? No mail hooks? No MOW work? No bothersome railfans? ...I think that there are loads more areas where we can use sound without overdoing it...but with PFM, all of these are very possible, so what you could use is the BLI loco w/o electronics, at $110 list...Obviously BLI has made a business decision that your purchase is not important...get used to the feeling! I know I belong to several groups whose opinion is scorned by many in the business, including groups like "folks who LIKE to build kits" Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:19:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G43 Mill Gondola? From: Jerry Britton On 2/25/03 4:00 PM, "Ted Andrews" wrote: > One has got to be the N-8 > > Correct? :-) > ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:06:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1's Gary and list....... If you can found one (which isn't hard), try RMC December 1975. This issue has scale drawings of the nose contours. Also has scale drawings of the body,frame,pantogragh,etc. Also has the plans for the alternate high air intakes A "must have" for the GG1 fan. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:57:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Don Ball book --part1_120.1e5d3cb6.2b8d9524_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Don Ball book; The Pennsylvania Railroad: the 1940s and 1950s is one of my very favorite books. It deals with a very interesting and rewarding time in the history of the Pennsylvania Railroad. In my opinion it is well worth $50.00. Al Guckes --part1_120.1e5d3cb6.2b8d9524_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Don Ball book; The Pennsylvania Railroad:= the 1940s and 1950s is one of my very favorite books. It deals with a very=20= interesting and rewarding time in the history of the Pennsylvania Railroad.=20= In my opinion it is well worth $50.00.

Al Guckes --part1_120.1e5d3cb6.2b8d9524_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:24:49 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest F30k tie cars John, Don't know exactly when the PRR started converting the class F30 to F30K work equipment "tie handling" cars, except it was late in the game. I have a photo (from Bob's photos) of PRR 497506 just out of the shop in pristine Camp Car Yellow with a Jan 68 reweigh date. They served longer in the PC era than the PRR era, however, they were renumbered during the PC daze. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam locomotive pilot lettering Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:44:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C2DD27.CE6B5980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Matt--You asked about steam engine pilot markings. The Keystone for = March, 1972, has a complete listing and explains the changes over time = as the PRR reorganized. PRRT&HS may have this available as a reprint. = If you have a specific era and location/division, I would be happy to = look it up and provide the info. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C2DD27.CE6B5980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Matt--You asked about steam engine = pilot=20 markings.  The Keystone for March, 1972, has a complete listing and = explains the changes over time as the PRR reorganized.  PRRT&HS = may=20 have this available as a reprint.  If you have a specific era and=20 location/division, I would be happy to look it up and provide the=20 info.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C2DD27.CE6B5980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 06:15:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] FW: Derailment in Pennsylvania From: Jerry Britton ------ Forwarded Message From: "NSINFO" Reply-To: alert@nscorp.com Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:55:34 -0500 (EST) To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: Derailment in Pennsylvania Derailment in Pennsylvania A derailment this afternoon has impacted Norfolk Southern's main line operations near Johnstown, Pennsylvania. (Johnstown is on Norfolk Southern's mainline between Pittsburgh and Conway, PA.) All mainlines at this location are out of service. Efforts are currently underway to clear and repair tracks as quickly as possible. Operations over one of the lines is expected to be restored early Wednesday. Customers with traffic normally moving through this area should expect up to 24 hour delay For information on specific shipments, please contact the National Customer Service Center at 800.635.5768. ------ End of Forwarded Message ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Honner" Subject: [PRR] PRR Books Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:37:12 +1100 Sorry to start a new thread but I can't figure out how to reply to messages on my e-mail digest. Some good reviews of Don Ball's book "The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s-1950s". If you're looking for good book prices on any book try this site: http://www.addall.com/ The site will search the web for you and find the best price for any book, including shipping costs. I found "The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s-1950s" through this service for CDN $42 - much cheaper than the US $50 quoted earlier on the thread. It checks both new and used prices - the price I got was for a new book. I am not affiliated with the site in any way, just a satisfied customer. Thank you for all the reviews of this book, and the answers to my earlier question about PRR modelling sites. I have ordered Don Ball's book based upon the many rave reviews, and I hope it will give me a wider look at the Pennsy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Question for Membership Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:41:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2DD6A.6F7F97E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has Don Ball come out with a new book on the PRR or has it been out for = awhile? I have lost conversation on whats happening. Please help this = OLD OLD Man?? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2DD6A.6F7F97E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has Don Ball come out with a new book on the PRR or has it been out = for=20 awhile? I have lost conversation on whats happening. Please help this = OLD OLD=20 Man??
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2DD6A.6F7F97E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:52:03 -0500 SPF's, I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were "basically the same", but... Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? Thanks. Doug in snowy/cold eastern OH. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:58:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. From: Jerry Britton On 2/26/03 7:52 AM, Doug Day (dougday@1st.net) wrote: > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > "basically the same", but... > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > Totally different boilers. The K5 was larger. Depending on which of the two K5's you wish to model, different valve gears as well. Don't know if you have the budget for brass, but the K5 done by Key Imports is still available. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:03:14 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. As Jerry said, the K5 was a bigger boiler. Where the K4 shared a boiler design with the Li Mikado, the K5 used the boiler designed for the I1 and M1. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Day wrote: > SPF's, > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > "basically the same", but... > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > Thanks. > > Doug in snowy/cold eastern OH. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stokers Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:08:39 +0000 Looking through old Keystones last night and one issue in the early 80's had an article about the various stokers used. I understand how coal got to the firebox with a single feed tube butI don't understand how a duplex stoker transferred the coal from the horizontal screw to the vertical screws. Does anybody know why or how the coal would become engaged with the vertical screws. Also what size was the coal after going though the crushers included as part of the stoker screw mechanism? Stokers were incredibly complex devices with several hundred parts according to the cutaway drawings in the Keystone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:12:02 -0500 Listers, Not that I'm going to do this since I have a brass K5 but could you put a Bowser new I1 boiler on their K4 mechanism and make it work as a K5? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:03 AM To: Doug Day Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. As Jerry said, the K5 was a bigger boiler. Where the K4 shared a boiler design with the Li Mikado, the K5 used the boiler designed for the I1 and M1. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Day wrote: > SPF's, > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > "basically the same", but... > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > Thanks. > > Doug in snowy/cold eastern OH. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:21:12 -0600 Subject: [PRR] FW: RS: Old CNW GP40 From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" One of the Railspotters north of Houston posted the following shot of UP 9975. http://community.webshots.com/album/64817212pvJOzd This engine has run for several railroads: delivered to the NYC in Dec 1965 as 3031, to PC 3031 when it was formed in 1968, to CR 3031 when it was formed in 1976, to CNW 5520 sometime in the 1980's and then to UP 9975 sometime after the UP took over the CNW. If you look carefully, it looks like a slanted "PE" under the dynamic brakes - maybe the old Penn Central letters showing through the paint. Thought the Penn Central or CR fans in the group might enjoy. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:31:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stokers >Looking through old Keystones last night and one issue in the early 80's >had an >article about the various stokers used. I understand how coal got to the >firebox with a single feed tube butI don't understand how a duplex stoker >transferred the coal from the horizontal screw to the vertical screws. Does >anybody know why or how the coal would become engaged with the vertical >screws. Also what size was the coal after going though the crushers included >as part of the stoker screw mechanism? Stokers were incredibly complex >devices >with several hundred parts according to the cutaway drawings in the Keystone. Indeed they were complex... The screw worked on the Archimedes principal, so that the horizontal screw, moving coal from the bunker, would have to use gravity or pressure to drop or push coal into the vertical screw. Once there, the coal would be transferred up to the opening of the firebox, where it would be blown into the firebox by steam, or compressed air. The stoker screws did a pretty good job of crushing whatever got into them (except metal, which would foul them badly), so the coal size entering the firebox varied from a couple of inches at the largest to powder. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Rose Tower Revisited Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:46:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2DD7B.EEC6D840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the book "Altoona and the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Betty Wagner Loeb on the bottom of Page 38 there is a picture of Rose Tower as it appeared in 1973. I stand corrected. They did not "amputate" the tower portion in the southwest quadrant, but they did apparently amputate its roof. In the photo you can see that portion jutting out from the rest of the building proper. As I recall that corner was where the Yardmaster sat observing the action out in the yard. The door in the immediate foreground lead to the Trainmaster's Office, his chief clerk being by the middle window and the TM in the office behind the window on the right with the infamous passenger main just to the right of that. The eastbound passenger trains had made their running brake test about 4th street opposite the Altoona passenger car shops, throttled out passing Juniata Shop and were just about "up to speed" when they roared past this frail looking building. According to drawings, Rose was formerly called "RV". Westbound passenger trains were, of course, still "at speed" as they passed by (making their final descent into downtown Altoona international passenger station). At least they were one full track away from the shaking and rattling window glass of Rose. Mr. Lund, if you are listening, please contact me off list as I discarded your e-mail address. If you'd like, I could scan the photo for you and send it. Bill Volkmer ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2DD7B.EEC6D840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
In the = book "Altoona=20 and the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Betty Wagner Loeb on the bottom of = Page 38=20 there is a picture of Rose Tower as it appeared in 1973. =20
 
I = stand=20 corrected.  They did not "amputate" the tower portion in the = southwest=20 quadrant, but they did apparently amputate its roof.   In the = photo=20 you can see that portion jutting out from the rest of the building = proper. =20 As I recall that corner was where the Yardmaster sat observing the = action out in=20 the yard. 
 
The = door in the=20 immediate foreground lead to the Trainmaster's Office, his chief clerk = being by=20 the middle window and the TM in the office behind the window on the = right with=20 the infamous passenger main just to the right of that.  The = eastbound=20 passenger trains had made their running brake test about 4th street = opposite the=20 Altoona passenger car shops, throttled out passing Juniata Shop and were = just=20 about "up to speed" when they roared past this frail looking=20 building.   According to drawings, Rose was formerly called=20 "RV".  Westbound passenger trains were, of course, still "at speed" = as they=20 passed by (making their final descent into downtown Altoona = international=20 passenger station).  At least they were one full track away from = the=20 shaking and rattling window glass of Rose.
 
Mr. = Lund, if you are=20 listening, please contact me off list as I discarded your e-mail = address. =20 If you'd like, I could scan the photo for you and send = it.
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2DD7B.EEC6D840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:48:03 -0500 From: Ike Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 2/26/03 7:52 AM, Doug Day (dougday@1st.net) wrote: > > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what > > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > > "basically the same", but... > > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > > Totally different boilers. The K5 was larger. Depending on which of the two > K5's you wish to model, different valve gears as well. > Isn't the steam delivery piping to the steam chests on a K5 similar to the K2 also? (Internal rather than externally visible as on a K4?) I have a few pics saved of 5698, Jerry, what was the number of the other K5? I had not realized there were only 2. Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:12:35 -0500 You can compare the diagrams for the K4 and K5 on my web site... See: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=ste The K5's were numbered 5698 & 5699. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ike > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:48 AM > Cc: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. > > > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > On 2/26/03 7:52 AM, Doug Day (dougday@1st.net) wrote: > > > > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a > friend asked me what > > > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > > > "basically the same", but... > > > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > > > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > > > > Totally different boilers. The K5 was larger. Depending on > which of the two > > K5's you wish to model, different valve gears as well. > > > > Isn't the steam delivery piping to the steam chests on a K5 similar to > the K2 also? (Internal rather than externally visible as on a K4?) I > have a few pics saved of 5698, Jerry, what was the number of the other > K5? I had not realized there were only 2. > > > Ike > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:14:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RE: Ball Book From: "Stephen H. Prosser" I agree with Al, Don Ball's book is really good. It has a great spread on Altoona! For those interested, go to bn.com (barnes and noble); click on "Out of Print"; type in "Pennsylvania" in the title box and "ball" in the author box and press search. You'll find about 18 copies there ranging from $38. Up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:16:34 -0500 Here's a photo of K5 #5699 at Lima, OH in 1939 (H.K. Vollrath collection): http://www.velocity.net./~geshick/prr/images/k5_5699.jpg The steam pipe is not visible, and it has very strange looking valve gear. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ike" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > On 2/26/03 7:52 AM, Doug Day (dougday@1st.net) wrote: > > > > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what > > > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > > > "basically the same", but... > > > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > > > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > > > > Totally different boilers. The K5 was larger. Depending on which of the two > > K5's you wish to model, different valve gears as well. > > > > Isn't the steam delivery piping to the steam chests on a K5 similar to > the K2 also? (Internal rather than externally visible as on a K4?) I > have a few pics saved of 5698, Jerry, what was the number of the other > K5? I had not realized there were only 2. > > > Ike > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:51:32 +0000 The K-5's had Caprotti valve gear according to Pennsy Power. I think I recall that this was a form of rotary cam valve gear that led to the Franklin rotary cams being installed on a K4 that led to the decision to use rotary cams on the T-1's which was one fo the weaknesses. > Here's a photo of K5 #5699 at Lima, OH in 1939 (H.K. Vollrath collection): > http://www.velocity.net./~geshick/prr/images/k5_5699.jpg > The steam pipe is not visible, and it has very strange looking valve gear. > > Jerry Shickler > Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ike" > Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:48 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. > > > > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > > > On 2/26/03 7:52 AM, Doug Day (dougday@1st.net) wrote: > > > > > > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked > me what > > > > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > > > > "basically the same", but... > > > > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > > > > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > > > > > > Totally different boilers. The K5 was larger. Depending on which of the > two > > > K5's you wish to model, different valve gears as well. > > > > > > > Isn't the steam delivery piping to the steam chests on a K5 similar to > > the K2 also? (Internal rather than externally visible as on a K4?) I > > have a few pics saved of 5698, Jerry, what was the number of the other > > K5? I had not realized there were only 2. > > > > > > Ike > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Stokers Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:55:07 +0000 I know the screw worked as a ramp but were the horizontal and vertical screws intermeshed or was it just the force of the coal being fed that pushed it over into the vertical screw? It seems like a place that it could get jammed very easily. > >Looking through old Keystones last night and one issue in the early 80's > >had an > >article about the various stokers used. I understand how coal got to the > >firebox with a single feed tube butI don't understand how a duplex stoker > >transferred the coal from the horizontal screw to the vertical screws. Does > >anybody know why or how the coal would become engaged with the vertical > >screws. Also what size was the coal after going though the crushers included > >as part of the stoker screw mechanism? Stokers were incredibly complex > >devices > >with several hundred parts according to the cutaway drawings in the Keystone. > > Indeed they were complex... > > The screw worked on the Archimedes principal, so that the horizontal screw, > moving coal from the bunker, would have to use gravity or pressure to drop > or push coal into the vertical screw. Once there, the coal would be > transferred up to the opening of the firebox, where it would be blown into > the firebox by steam, or compressed air. The stoker screws did a pretty > good job of crushing whatever got into them (except metal, which would foul > them badly), so the coal size entering the firebox varied from a couple of > inches at the largest to powder. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stokers Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:25:13 -0500 I don't know if this has the answer you're looking for but it has a pretty good discussion of how stokers worked... See chapter 6 starting on page 36: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/MachineryExaminationsForLocomotiveFiremen-1 949.pdf Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > ndbprr@att.net > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 10:55 AM > To: PRR-Talk; Bruce F. Smith > Subject: Re: [PRR] Stokers > > > I know the screw worked as a ramp but were the horizontal and > vertical screws > intermeshed or was it just the force of the coal being fed that > pushed it over > into the vertical screw? It seems like a place that it could get > jammed very > easily. > > >Looking through old Keystones last night and one issue in the > early 80's > > >had an > > >article about the various stokers used. I understand how coal > got to the > > >firebox with a single feed tube butI don't understand how a > duplex stoker > > >transferred the coal from the horizontal screw to the vertical > screws. Does > > >anybody know why or how the coal would become engaged with the vertical > > >screws. Also what size was the coal after going though the > crushers included > > >as part of the stoker screw mechanism? Stokers were incredibly complex > > >devices > > >with several hundred parts according to the cutaway drawings > in the Keystone. > > > > Indeed they were complex... > > > > The screw worked on the Archimedes principal, so that the > horizontal screw, > > moving coal from the bunker, would have to use gravity or > pressure to drop > > or push coal into the vertical screw. Once there, the coal would be > > transferred up to the opening of the firebox, where it would be > blown into > > the firebox by steam, or compressed air. The stoker screws did a pretty > > good job of crushing whatever got into them (except metal, > which would foul > > them badly), so the coal size entering the firebox varied from > a couple of > > inches at the largest to powder. > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - > Benjamin Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ > __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:47:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Doug, The difference between the K4s and K5 are many. From Appliances, Tender Trucks, Boiler Size, Steam Chest, Frame, Bell Location-(pre and post war look both), Valve gear. To best model this loco one would need most of a Bowser K4 Chassis, The Cylinder Block form an old Cary M1a or a Bowser version my work as well?, a new Bowser I1 Boiler, many specialty detail parts, , good reference pics amd good skills to put everything together. But you could also find an old cheapy (about $275.00 or so) Westside Model K5. Not the best but not the that bad as is. This represents 5698. For a better K5, (but I heard stories about this model too), is the Key K5. They imported both 5698 and 5699. Quite expesive at 800.00. Originally the K5's were used in Phiily service and then onto Pittsburgh service in the midlate 30's but they eventually found there way into Maryland. My 1931 MP229 has them at Philly.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:03:58 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: K4 & K5 Differences. Hi Doug, As an owner of both a K5 and K4 the differences are pronounced. The K5 was the M1a "prototype" It included: 1. a larger boiler 2. internal steam delivery pipes and larger cylinders. 3. higher boiler pressure 4 5698 had Walschert's valve gear 5 5699 had Capprioti valve gear similar to the T1.(later changed to Walscherts) 6. The bell was mounted under the headlight as on the Q2. 7. I also believe that the drivers were larger than the K4 but I'm not certain. Both Westside and Key have made the K5. I own a Westside and they can sill be purchased at meets for a LOT less than the Key model. There is an opinion that the Westside model is inferior but mine has operated well over the past 27 years I have owned it. A bit of weight is needed and the blind center driver should be replaced with the flanged one included with the original model. Since my operations revolve around freight rather than passengers, it has been under utilized in recent years. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Doug Day" SPF's, I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were "basically the same", but... Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:04:22 -0500 Chris, Group, I have drawings from Hank Mummert that list all the peices from Bowser to make a Bowser version of the K5. He forwarded them to me a couple of years ago. I never did the project because I found a Brass one cheeper than buying all the parts but it is possible. If Hank would agree to it I could scan them and post. Sam Vastano >From: "Chany, Christopher" >CC: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:12:02 -0500 > >Listers, > >Not that I'm going to do this since I have a brass K5 but could you put a >Bowser new I1 boiler on their K4 mechanism and make it work as a K5? > >Chris Chany > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] >Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:03 AM >To: Doug Day >Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. > > >As Jerry said, the K5 was a bigger boiler. Where the K4 shared a boiler >design >with the Li Mikado, the K5 used the boiler designed for the I1 and M1. > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >================================================== >Doug Day wrote: > > > SPF's, > > > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me >what > > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > > "basically the same", but... > > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Doug in snowy/cold eastern OH. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:20:59 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Derailment in Pennsylvania In a message dated 2/26/2003 6:15:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > (Johnstown is on Norfolk > Soutern's mainline between Pittsburgh and Conway, PA.) Not exactly. Johnstown is on the mainline but about 70 miles east of Pittsburgh. The Johnstown metropolitan area, what there is of it, is located west of SO and east of SG. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Derailment in Pennsylvania Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:49:08 GMT Rich and all, NS has updated their web page alert to agree with what you say. "A derailment yesterday afternoon has impacted Norfolk Southern's main line operations near Johnstown, Pennsylvania. (Johnstown is on Norfolk Southern's mainline between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, PA). One main line was cleared this morning and Norfolk Southern will begin a directional operating plan to relieve a backlog of trains moving through the area. It is expected a second main line will return to service late today. Efforts are being made to clear resulting congestion, however customers should expect delays to all traffic that normally moves through area." Howdy > In a message dated 2/26/2003 6:15:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > (Johnstown is on Norfolk > > Soutern's mainline between Pittsburgh and Conway, PA.) > > Not exactly. Johnstown is on the mainline but about 70 miles east of Pittsburgh. The Johnstown metropolitan area, what there is of it, is located west of SO and east of SG. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:48:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C2DD9D.C1EF88E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crestline roundhouse Annual Meeting and Open HouseThe book "Lewistown = and the Pennsylvania Railroad" has a chapter on the Denholm Coal Wharf = which has some very good pictures showing good detail of the overall = wharf and individual features, both from below and above, including the = round sand hatches on the upper deck for filling the sand bunkers. It = also includes track diagrams of the yards and the wharf, both top and = bottom. I believe the Thorndale Coal Wharf (Philadelphia Division mainline) is = virtually identical to Denholm. I haven't seen any video of Denholm, = but there are a few cameo shots of Thorndale on one of the Digital Image = Works Pennsy videos. I believe awhile back Jerry Britton (listmeister PRR-Talk) said that he = had seen big pieces of the Denholm Wharf virtually intact in a scrap = yard somewhere in that area. Perhaps Jerry could comment and even offer = directions to the scrap yard (if indeed Jerry is the person I'm thinking = of. If not, sorry Jerry!). Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C2DD9D.C1EF88E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crestline roundhouse Annual Meeting and Open = House
The book "Lewistown and the Pennsylvania = Railroad" has a=20 chapter on the Denholm Coal Wharf which has some very good pictures = showing good=20 detail of the overall wharf and individual features, both from below and = above,=20 including the round sand hatches on the upper deck for filling the sand=20 bunkers.  It also includes track diagrams of the yards and the = wharf, both=20 top and bottom.
 
I believe the Thorndale Coal Wharf (Philadelphia = Division=20 mainline) is virtually identical to Denholm.  I haven't seen any = video of=20 Denholm, but there are a few cameo shots of Thorndale on one of the = Digital=20 Image Works Pennsy videos.
 
I believe awhile back Jerry Britton (listmeister = PRR-Talk)=20 said that he had seen big pieces of the Denholm Wharf virtually intact = in a=20 scrap yard somewhere in that area.  Perhaps Jerry could comment and = even=20 offer directions to the scrap yard (if indeed Jerry is the person I'm = thinking=20 of.  If not, sorry Jerry!).
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C2DD9D.C1EF88E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:48:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Denholm Coal Wharf The book "Lewistown and the Pennsylvania Railroad" has a chapter on the Denholm Coal Wharf which has some very good pictures showing good detail of the overall wharf and individual features, both from below and above, including the round sand hatches on the upper deck for filling the sand bunkers. It also includes track diagrams of the yards and the wharf, both top and bottom. I believe the Thorndale Coal Wharf (Philadelphia Division mainline) is virtually identical to Denholm. I haven't seen any video of Denholm, but there are a few cameo shots of Thorndale on one of the Digital Image Works Pennsy videos. I believe awhile back Jerry Britton (PRR-Talk) said that he had seen big pieces of the Denholm Wharf virtually intact in a scrap yard somewhere in that area. Perhaps Jerry could comment and even offer directions to the scrap yard (if indeed Jerry is the person I'm thinking of. If not, sorry Jerry!). Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:13:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3129113588_1711525 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/26/03 1:48 PM, "William Bigler" wrote: > The book "Lewistown and the Pennsylvania Railroad" has a chapter on the > Denholm Coal Wharf which has some very good pictures showing good detail = of > the overall wharf and individual features, both from below and above, > including the round sand hatches on the upper deck for filling the sand > bunkers. It also includes track diagrams of the yards and the wharf, bot= h top > and bottom. > =20 > I believe the Thorndale Coal Wharf (Philadelphia Division mainline) is > virtually identical to Denholm. I haven't seen any video of Denholm, but > there are a few cameo shots of Thorndale on one of the Digital Image Work= s > Pennsy videos. > =20 > I believe awhile back Jerry Britton (listmeister PRR-Talk) said that he h= ad > seen big pieces of the Denholm Wharf virtually intact in a scrap yard > somewhere in that area. Perhaps Jerry could comment and even offer direc= tions > to the scrap yard (if indeed Jerry is the person I'm thinking of. If not= , > sorry Jerry!). > =20 It was a second-hand report. Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, was taken to the location by, I believe, Todd Treaster. Todd is an N scale modeler in Lewistown and an engineer for Norfolk Southern. The location of the Denholm leftovers was at the scrap yard owned by the same family that owns the East Broad Top. The name escapes me at the moment. If you are west on 322 and get off at the Electric Avenue exit, bear right. Go past McDonald=B9s on the right and Wendy=B9s on the left. Follow this road about a mile or so. It will curve around to the left and you=B9ll go through at least one light. The scrap yard will be on the right. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3129113588_1711525 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf On 2/26/03 1:48 PM, "William Bigler" <wbi= gler@stny.rr.com> wrote:

The book "Lewistown and the Penn= sylvania Railroad" has a chapter on the Denholm Coal Wharf which has so= me very good pictures showing good detail of the overall wharf and individua= l features, both from below and above, including the round sand hatches on t= he upper deck for filling the sand bunkers.  It also includes track dia= grams of the yards and the wharf, both top and bottom.
I believe the Thorndale Coal Wharf (Philadelphia = Division mainline) is virtually identical to Denholm.  I haven't seen a= ny video of Denholm, but there are a few cameo shots of Thorndale on one of = the Digital Image Works Pennsy videos.
I believe awhile back Jerry Britton (listmeister = PRR-Talk) said that he had seen big pieces of the Denholm Wharf virtually in= tact in a scrap yard somewhere in that area.  Perhaps Jerry could comme= nt and even offer directions to the scrap yard (if indeed Jerry is the perso= n I'm thinking of.  If not, sorry Jerry!).

It was a second-hand report. Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central = Chapter, was taken to the location by, I believe, Todd Treaster. Todd is an = N scale modeler in Lewistown and an engineer for Norfolk Southern. The locat= ion of the Denholm leftovers was at the scrap yard owned by the same family = that owns the East Broad Top. The name escapes me at the moment.

If you are west on 322 and get off at the Electric Avenue exit, bear right.= Go past McDonald’s on the right and Wendy’s on the left. Follow= this road about a mile or so. It will curve around to the left and you̵= 7;ll go through at least one light. The scrap yard will be on the right.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3129113588_1711525-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:13:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars --0-586444412-1046290384=:67631 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle with more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves me correctly, I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!! This is the problem with being young while train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing together. Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a train? Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-586444412-1046290384=:67631 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle with more than one cabin car at the end.  If memory serves me correctly, I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that.  Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!!  This is the problem with being young while train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing together. 

Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a train?  Deadheads?  Rider cars?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-586444412-1046290384=:67631-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:30:59 -0500 In the early '60's, I have memories of two cabin cars on the rear of a mail/express train (ALL baggage and express cars) passing non-stop through Newark, NJ Penn Station. A PRR/REA cabin car (REAL dirty) was on the rear of the train. A New Haven caboose was ahead of the PRR. I assume (and that's dangerous) the the PRR caboose was cut off in New York Penn Station and the train continued onto the New Haven by way of the Hell Gate bridge. Dennis @ D & S Hobbies ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Ronald Di Orio To: PRR Fax , PRR Modeling , PRR Talk Sent: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:13:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars > I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the > Panhandle with more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves > me correctly, I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong > on that. Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was > ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!! This is the > problem with being young while train watching---I tended to focus > more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting > car, loco, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing > together. > > Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins > on a train? Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:45:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2DDAE.1823E9D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depends on which year you were watching. Before about 1965 the crews had their own assigned cabin cars. If they (the crews)deadheaded back home on a passenger train, their assigned cabin had to be deadheaded back on a passing freight train. After Pennsy began pooling the cabin cars they too, often found an imbalance of available cabin cars. The locomotives were being similarly deadheaded, but you didn't notice them because instead of a two unit train, they often became four unit trains with two just going along to balance out the power. Such were the vagaries of the PRR. Power imbalance was particularly visible in the electrified zone where "six-packs" of light Gs were often seen running back and forth to and from Enola to points east. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:13 PM To: PRR Fax; PRR Modeling; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle with more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves me correctly, I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!! This is the problem with being young while train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing together. Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a train? Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2DDAE.1823E9D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Depends on which year you were watching.  Before about = 1965 the=20 crews had their own assigned cabin cars.  If they (the = crews)deadheaded=20 back home on a passenger train, their assigned cabin had to be = deadheaded back=20 on a passing freight train.
 
After Pennsy began pooling the cabin cars they too, often = found an=20 imbalance of available cabin cars.  The locomotives were being = similarly=20 deadheaded, but you didn't notice them because instead of a two unit = train, they=20 often became four unit trains with two just going along  to balance = out the=20 power.
 
Such=20 were the vagaries of the PRR.  Power imbalance was particularly = visible in=20 the electrified zone where "six-packs" of  light Gs were often seen = running=20 back and forth to and from Enola to points east.
 
Bill=20 V.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Ronald Di=20 Orio
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:13 = PM
To: PRR=20 Fax; PRR Modeling; PRR Talk
Subject: [PRR] Cabin=20 Cars

I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the = Panhandle=20 with more than one cabin car at the end.  If memory serves me = correctly,=20 I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. =20 Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the = cabin cars,=20 mail/express or freight!!!  This is the problem with being young = while=20 train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the = "forest",=20 i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried to = put the=20 whole thing together. 

Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins = on a=20 train?  Deadheads?  Rider cars?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and = more
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2DDAE.1823E9D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:35:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C2DDAC.B0EF9580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For Ron Di Orio. When I woirked for the PRR we Deadheaded a lot of extra = Cabooses on the tail end of freights a few times. = leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: PRR Fax ; PRR Modeling ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the = Panhandle with more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves me = correctly, I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on = that. Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of = the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!! This is the problem with = being young while train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" = than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but = never tried to put the whole thing together. =20 Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a = train? Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C2DDAC.B0EF9580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For Ron Di Orio. When I woirked for the PRR we Deadheaded a lot of = extra=20 Cabooses on the tail end of freights a few times.  =20 leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
----- Original Message -----=20
To: PRR Fax ; PRR Modeling ; PRR Talk =
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:13 PM
Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars

I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the = Panhandle=20 with more than one cabin car at the end.  If memory serves me = correctly, I=20 think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. =20 Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin = cars,=20 mail/express or freight!!!  This is the problem with being young = while=20 train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the = "forest", i.e.,=20 I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried to put the = whole=20 thing together. 

Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins = on a=20 train?  Deadheads?  Rider cars?  Thanks.  Ron


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Yahoo!=20 Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C2DDAC.B0EF9580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:08:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars Bill replies: >After Pennsy began pooling the cabin cars they too, often found an >imbalance of available cabin cars. The locomotives were being similarly >deadheaded, but you didn't notice them because instead of a two unit >train, they often became four unit trains with two just going along to >balance out the power. Such were the vagaries of the PRR. Power >imbalance was particularly visible in the electrified zone where >"six-packs" of light Gs were often seen running back and forth to and >from Enola to points east. This sees to have been the practice for much of the history of the A&S. Due to the prevailing preponderance of loads eastbound and empties westbound, eastbound trains were shorter and more frequent. Westbounds were longer, and often carried extra cabins (sometimes 3 or 4!). Locomotive imbalances were cured either by adding locos to a consist, even if they weren't needed, or be deadheading them back. Plenty of examples on film from the '30s and '40s with both electrics and steam. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:22:40 +0000 An interesting comment about cabin cars which your post jogged in my memory is that there was a problem with them on tructrains derailing at crossovers due to the variance in wheelbase length of the respective cars. A transistion box car of intermediate length was sometimes added as a precaution. I think I read that either in the Keystone or Rails Northeast some years back. Norm Bell > > I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle with > more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves me correctly, I think they > were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. Unfortunately, cannot > remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or > freight!!! This is the problem with being young while train watching---I tended > to focus more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, > loco, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing together. > > Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a train? > Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:38:03 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf --- Jerry Britton wrote: > The > location of the Denholm leftovers was at the scrap yard owned by > the same > family that owns the East Broad Top. The name escapes me at the > moment. Kovalchik. Nick (now deceased), son's name is, I believe, Joseph. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:31:22 -0500 Friends: I looked into doing this conversion a while ago. It is possible to do this using mostly parts available from Bowser for their M1a and a chassis for the K4. You would have scratch build the valve gear. There was something about the wheels (shape, counter balance, size ???) that wasn't right, but I can't remember what. Mounting the M1a cylinders on the K4 chassis will require some work, too. I think the K4 chassis is a wee bit too short, too, and needs to be chopped and lengthened. If you are going to do this, make a card stock wrapper for the cab and add some details to it. No point in doing this much work if you don't do it all. Somewhere, I have all the parts, including a tender, to do this, now that I'm thinking about it. I also made up several sheet of notes and sketches. I always try to work out a kitbash on paper before I commit my $$$ models. When the snow clears (???) I'll go over to the barn and look for this. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Doug Day" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & K5 Differences. > As Jerry said, the K5 was a bigger boiler. Where the K4 shared a boiler design > with the Li Mikado, the K5 used the boiler designed for the I1 and M1. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Doug Day wrote: > > > SPF's, > > > > I don't think I've ever seen this discussed here, but a friend asked me what > > the differences were between a K4 & K5 and I told him that they were > > "basically the same", but... > > Can someone enlighten me here and what about changina a commercially > > available K4 to q a 5...say a Spectrum or Bowser? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Doug in snowy/cold eastern OH. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:46:16 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Question for Membership --------------823E2FFEF6E252E7549C6B0F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been out for a number of years (maybe 1988?). Unfortunately Don Ball passed away just before this book was released. A real sleeper, but certainly a beautiful book. I paid $45 for mine when it was initially released, and I notice that the price has not dropped over time....tells you something about the quality of the content. You won't find this one on the bargain tables. I HAVE seen it in a couple of public libraries, so if you want to check it out before plopping down $50, that would be the way to go. edmund burbage wrote: > Has Don Ball > come out with a new book on the PRR or has it been out for awhile? I > have lost conversation on whats happening. Please help this OLD OLD > Man?? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com --------------823E2FFEF6E252E7549C6B0F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been out for a number of years (maybe 1988?). Unfortunately Don Ball passed away just before this book was released.

A real sleeper, but certainly a beautiful book.

I paid $45 for mine when it was initially released, and I notice that the price has not dropped over time....tells you something about the quality of the content.  You won't find this one on the bargain tables. I HAVE seen it in a couple of public libraries, so if you want to check it out before plopping down $50, that would be the way to go.

edmund burbage wrote:

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" />Has Don Ball come out with a new book on the PRR or has it been out for awhile? I have lost conversation on whats happening. Please help this OLD OLD Man?? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
--------------823E2FFEF6E252E7549C6B0F-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:19:12 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Denholm coal wharf Hi, all, Here's my two cents worth. One, Denhom and Thorndale were essentially identical. The major difference was that the ash house was on the (timetable) east side of the south end of Thorndale but on the east side of the NORTH end of Denholm. Failure to note this difference has caused a number of people, seeing Thorndale, to mis-identify it as Denholm. There's a shot of an I1 in one of the PENNSY POWER books which falls prey to this. Also, at Thorndale, the north end of the wharf was a dead end, necessitating that hoppers be rolled on and off the same end (although occasionally they kept rolling right off the north end!). By contrast, at Denholm, the north end had a track that curved down to track 4. Cars on the wharf had to be winched with a car puller to get them rolling, but once they were, a brakeman rode the empty hopper down to holding tracks. RE the remains of Denholm at the Kovalcik scrap yard at Lewistown (Burnham), I was there with Bill Lewis and while it is possible, I saw nothing that I thought was INDISPUTABLY a part of Denholm. Apparently Kovalcik did scrap the Denholm wharf so it's possible...but it's been almost 50 years, so don't get your hopes up. Although I will say that what IS in the scrap yard is quite fascinating. One more detail - sometime during the life of the Denholm wharf, the steel girder structure was significantly reinforced. Compare early (pre-1930) shots of Denholm with later views (such as those Don Wood took) and you will notice that additional steel has been added to the legs. Also, the number and location of the standpipes changed over the years. Apparently, as engines got heavier, they were no longer run out onto the wharf, although you see H6's on the wharf in photos taken before WW I. And since I'm warming to my subject, if you review the photos of Denholm in the KEYSTONE article (mostly taken by Joe Henry Kline), you'll notice that some of the stone piers appear to be much lighter than their surroundings. I asked a friend, a retired railroader, if he could explain this, and his suggestion was that these piers were painted white to increase their visibility, esp. at night. After all, whatever Denholm was originally painted, all that coal and coal smoke must have rapidly turned it all black, making the piers not easy to see if you are working around the wharf on the ground at night. One last thought - I seem to recall coming across evidence that there were two types of pits at Denholm. One set (the most prominent) was for dumping ashes from locomotives, and it was through these that the two continuous bucket chains ran which drew the ashes from the ash pits to the ash house. But in addition, there were separate inspection pits where workers could do an underneath inspection of locos. Apparently the engine crews were admonished to start their engines gently because if they didn't, the poor guy in the inspection pit got a lovely shower of all sorts of stuff, including hot coals. Can anyone confirm this? BTW the entrances to the ash pits can still be found at Denholm, filled with rubble. Joe Henry once told me that at one time you could still crawl down into these tunnels, but he added "you had better like snakes!" George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:31:50 -0500 I presume you all know that this place was pronounced Den-hall-um? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of robert netzlof Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:38 PM To: Jerry Britton; William Bigler; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf --- Jerry Britton wrote: > The > location of the Denholm leftovers was at the scrap yard owned by the > same family that owns the East Broad Top. The name escapes me at the > moment. Kovalchik. Nick (now deceased), son's name is, I believe, Joseph. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:28:49 -0500 I am delighted with my set if 3 Walthers R50bs. But, one problem, when coupled they look far to far apart. Since I run close coupled on all my stuff and use operating diaphragms, I need to shorten up the couplers on these. Right now it looks like I'll need KD#33 and also move the pocket back by cutting the original pockets off the frame. Now the real question. How far apart can/should they be? It is great that they included the buffers (diaphragm floors). But they are the problem. In operation they would be in contact or even compressed a bit. This won't work in HO. So I may need cut them back a bit too. The question? How far apart should the car ends be? If I know that dimension I can locate the couplers correctly. Then if need be, cut the buffers back. Di any of you have any photos showing the spacing between two R50bs? Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:31:54 -0500 Friends: I received a mail order catalog from Walthers a few days ago and looked for the R50b but didn't see any advertised for sale. How long have they been on the market? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Rea" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: [PRR] R50b coupler length? > > > I am delighted with my set if 3 Walthers R50bs. But, one problem, when > coupled they look far to far apart. Since I run close coupled on all my > stuff and use operating diaphragms, I need to shorten up the couplers on > these. Right now it looks like I'll need KD#33 and also move the pocket > back by cutting the original pockets off the frame. > > Now the real question. How far apart can/should they be? It is great that > they included the buffers (diaphragm floors). But they are the problem. In > operation they would be in contact or even compressed a bit. This won't > work in HO. So I may need cut them back a bit too. The question? How far > apart should the car ends be? > > If I know that dimension I can locate the couplers correctly. Then if need > be, cut the buffers back. Di any of you have any photos showing the spacing > between two R50bs? > > Fred Rea > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:54:58 -0600 Fred, I couldn't find an equipment diagram on Rob's site, but there is a drawing in NJ International's PRR Heavyweight passenger car book. It shows the R50b's coupled length to be 53' 5 3/4". Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:28:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boxcars behind TOFC was Cabin Cars --part1_165.1bf2da70.2b8ec3d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/26/2003 4:30:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > An interesting comment about cabin cars which your post jogged in my memory > is > that there was a problem with them on tructrains derailing at crossovers > due to > the variance in wheelbase length of the respective cars. A transistion box > car > of intermediate length was sometimes added as a precaution. I think I read > > that either in the Keystone or Rails Northeast some years back. Norm Bell > Norm et. al. I was told and under the impression that initially the boxcar was a negotiated safety feature with one of the unions. There was concern that the trailer next to the cabin would come loose and crash into the cabin. Thus the empty boxcar to absorb any loose trailer and add some amount of protection for the crew. Rich Orr --part1_165.1bf2da70.2b8ec3d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/26/2003 4:30:48 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:


An interesting comment about ca= bin cars which your post jogged in my memory is
that there was a problem with them on tructrains derailing at crossovers due= to
the variance in wheelbase length of the respective cars.  A transistion= box car
of intermediate length was sometimes added as a precaution.  I think I=20= read
that either in the Keystone or Rails Northeast some years back.  Norm B= ell


Norm et. al.

I was told and under the impression that initially the boxcar was a negotiat= ed safety feature with one of the unions.  There was concern that the t= railer next to the cabin would come loose and crash into the cabin.  Th= us the empty boxcar to absorb any loose trailer and add some amount of prote= ction for the crew.

Rich Orr --part1_165.1bf2da70.2b8ec3d4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:13:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabin Cars I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle with more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves me correctly, I think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!! This is the problem with being young while train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing together. Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a train? Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:42:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b coupler length? On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Lewis J. Matt PhD wrote: > Friends: > > I received a mail order catalog from Walthers a few days ago and looked for > the R50b but didn't see any advertised for sale. How long have they been on > the market? I think they hit the streets in the last 2 or 3 weeks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:09:53 -0500 You didn't look hard enough! (They're listed under passenger cars but don't show the coupled length Side view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=R50b-E92119.gif&sel=re efpas End view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=R50b_fp-E92119.gif&sel =reefpas The diagrams have do have these measurements... 54'-7 3/4" over buffers 53'-5 3/4" over end castings Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Cich Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:55 PM To: Fred Rea; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Fred, I couldn't find an equipment diagram on Rob's site, but there is a drawing in NJ International's PRR Heavyweight passenger car book. It shows the R50b's coupled length to be 53' 5 3/4". Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:27:24 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf From: "Douglas Nelson" A few remaining hard bits of the Denholm coal wharf are in the scrapyard at Burnham, just north of Lewistown. Bill Lewis took a few of us there a couple of years ago. Also of interest in the scrapyard is a B6 belpaire boiler, several cabin cars and passenger cars. If you like rust, this place is heaven. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Fw: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:05:49 -0500 Andy and the List: Thanks for the 53' 6" number. That is about 7 3/8". As delivered when you couple them up it is 7 3/4". If you install KD 33s it is down to 7 5/8". If you remove the couplers and butt the buffers together you get the desired 7 3/8". I am using a one foot ruler because my scale rule is not long enough. With a coupled pair on track in front of me I measure from the right end of the roof walk on the right car to the right end of the walk on the left car. This is easier than measuring the theoretical mid coupler length. What this all means is, to get scale spacing, a bit of the buffers need removed and the couplers moved in from the ends by about 3/16" or only 1/8" if you use short shank KDs. Now comes the rub. If one is to cut the factory pockets off the frame and take some of the frame too, one loses the screw hole. It should be straight forward to drill and tap 0-80 down into the frame. But, how does one pop off the roof to get inside and at the screws? This may sound like a nit pick, but to me the over scale 5' spacing between the cars is hard to ignore. Too bad as they are beautiful models. Any thoughts or comments? Fred > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Cich" > To: "Fred Rea" ; "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:54 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] R50b coupler length? > > > > Fred, > > > > I couldn't find an equipment diagram on Rob's site, but there is a drawing > > in NJ International's PRR Heavyweight passenger car book. > > > > It shows the R50b's coupled length to be 53' 5 3/4". > > > > Andy Cich > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:40:39 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: new CD From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" You may remember me asking for the address of Semaphore Records a couple of months ago. I was stiffed one CD of "On Time." Yesterday I received the CD with a letter of apology for the mix up, and a complementary CD "Sounds of Steam on Horseshoe Curve." This was originally on a 45 rpm record, so is short, but was remastered for CD and the sound is great. The cuts: 1. Ride behind a K-4; 4:43. An on-train recording of a K-4 passenger train. The location is not given. 2. The Morning Commuter; 1:45. Trackside recording of a K-4 passing 3. Class T-1 Duplex Locomotive, Westbound. 1:10. A passenger train recorded as it passed the site of the old Kitanning Point station, crosses the fill and rounds the Curve on the way to the summit. 4. Class J Manifest Freight, Westbound; 2:22. Great exhaust sounds. 5. Class I-1sa Work Train Eastbound; 1:11. The engine is drifting downgrade and the rod clanking is very pronounced. Toward the end of the cut the engine blows at a crossing. 6. East and Westbound Action; 2:21. An I-1sa is assaulting the Curve westbound with sharp exhaust cracks. It slips several times. It is passed by an eastbound J drifting downgrade with, cylinder cocks open, making a whistling sound that almost masks the pounding of the I-1sa as it gets farther up the Curve. There are only 12 minutes and 52 seconds of recorded sound, the sound quality is great, and the CD is only $5 plus $3 S&H. The price list that came with the CDs also listed "Rods, Wheels & Whistles." Anyone have one of these? Don Harper Marine Laboratory Texas A&M - Galveston 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:11:35 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] R50b coupler length? Fred, My personal preference is to use a Kadee #43 rather than a 33. The couplers are interchangeable, but the 40 series are metal while the 20 and 30 series are plastic. Notice that there is no #48. The x8's are the standard height and length in each series and therefore a 48 would be identical to a #5. BTW This consistent numbering scheme raises the expectation that the new #58 is the vanguard of a whole 50 series with all the variations :-)) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Fred Rea wrote: > Andy and the List: > > Thanks for the 53' 6" number. That is about 7 3/8". As delivered when you > couple them up it is 7 3/4". If you install KD 33s it is down to 7 5/8". If > you remove the couplers and butt the buffers together you get the desired 7 > 3/8". > > I am using a one foot ruler because my scale rule is not long enough. With a > coupled pair on track in front of me I measure from the right end of the > roof walk on the right car to the right end of the walk on the left car. > This is easier than measuring the theoretical mid coupler length. > What this all means is, to get scale spacing, a bit of the buffers need > removed and the couplers moved in from the ends by about 3/16" or only 1/8" > if you use short shank KDs. > > Now comes the rub. If one is to cut the factory pockets off the frame and > take some of the frame too, one loses the screw hole. It should be straight > forward to drill and tap 0-80 down into the frame. But, how does one pop > off the roof to get inside and at the screws? > > This may sound like a nit pick, but to me the over scale 5' spacing between > the cars is hard to ignore. Too bad as they are beautiful models. > > Any thoughts or comments? > > Fred > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andy Cich" > > To: "Fred Rea" ; "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:54 PM > > Subject: RE: [PRR] R50b coupler length? > > > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > I couldn't find an equipment diagram on Rob's site, but there is a > drawing > > > in NJ International's PRR Heavyweight passenger car book. > > > > > > It shows the R50b's coupled length to be 53' 5 3/4". > > > > > > Andy Cich > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: [PRR] Track Diagrams Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:15:42 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DE73.17E27E80 Content-Type: text/plain Question for the group, I was looking at some track diagrams of Holmes tower along the NEC. The diagram shows an item labeled "Engine tap". What is the engine tap ? I'm trying to do some historical research of the junction for modeling reasons and would like to know if there was a water tank or other facilities there. Right where the engine tap is, the old Bleigh street yard is and also where the "Yard track 0" merges into the 4 track line of the NEC. My main interest is where the bustleton branch connects with the NEC, and any comments on that would also be appreciated. Here's the diagram I'm looking at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/holmes.gif Thanks Kenny ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DE73.17E27E80 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Track Diagrams

Question for the group,
I was looking at some track diagrams = of Holmes tower along the NEC.   The diagram shows an item = labeled "Engine tap".
What is the engine tap = ?    I'm trying to do some historical research of the = junction  for modeling reasons and would like to know if there was = a water tank or other facilities there.     Right = where the engine tap is, the old Bleigh street yard is and also where = the "Yard track 0" merges into the 4 track line of the = NEC.    My main interest is where the bustleton branch = connects with the NEC, and any comments on that would also be = appreciated.    Here's the diagram I'm looking = at

<= FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Arial">http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/holmes.gi= f

Thanks

Kenny

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DE73.17E27E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:58:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: new CD Don, I got Rods Wheels and Whistles and a few others various PRR titles on LP. Side 1 is PRR and side 2 is N&W. The PRR stuff is from NY&LB, Mantawan areas. K4 sounds mostly but there is a track of the B6sb at New Egypt NJ. N&W stuff is GP'9, Y6b's K2 J. Havn't played it in a long time so forget what the sounds were like. But, if you want the best samples of PRR Steam on an audio recording, pick up the outstanding set from the PRRT&HS. They got it on Tape and CD as well. I have this set on album but can only imagine the pure sounds on CD. Purchase through the society by all means. It bennifits the Society....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rv" Subject: [PRR] Engine Taps Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:04:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C2DE4F.FEDFAED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kenny...The Pennsy put these taps at most of their air plants, usually = on a non-main track or a pocket area (out of the way of traffic), for = the purpose of parking an engine to supply air for the plant, in case = of air compressor failure, using the back-up hose. =20 RV ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C2DE4F.FEDFAED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kenny...The Pennsy put these taps at = most of their=20 air plants,  usually on a non-main track or a pocket area (out of = the way=20 of traffic),  for the purpose of parking an engine to supply air = for the=20 plant,  in case of air compressor failure,  using the back-up=20 hose. 
RV
------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C2DE4F.FEDFAED0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Digital Image Works Tapes Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:00:48 -0500 I was browsing the Digital Image Works website and noticed two Pennsy tapes that I know nothing about - Phila. Terminal Division and PRR Steam & Electric Years Vol. II. Would any listmembers owning these tapes care to comment on their picture quality and subject content? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:31:54 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf --0-1819120751-1046385114=:15908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Another classic of local PA dialects, along with "Carnegie", "Monroeville", "Coraopolis", "Versailles", etc. Ron Bill Volkmer wrote:I presume you all know that this place was pronounced Den-hall-um? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of robert netzlof Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:38 PM To: Jerry Britton; William Bigler; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf --- Jerry Britton wrote: > The > location of the Denholm leftovers was at the scrap yard owned by the > same family that owns the East Broad Top. The name escapes me at the > moment. Kovalchik. Nick (now deceased), son's name is, I believe, Joseph. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1819120751-1046385114=:15908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Another classic of local PA dialects, along with "Carnegie", "Monroeville", "Coraopolis", "Versailles", etc.  Ron

 Bill Volkmer <bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com> wrote:

I presume you all know that this place was pronounced Den-hall-um?

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of robert
netzlof
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:38 PM
To: Jerry Britton; William Bigler; PRR-Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf


--- Jerry Britton wrote:
> The
> location of the Denholm leftovers was at the scrap yard owned by the
> same family that owns the East Broad Top. The name escapes me at the
> moment.

Kovalchik. Nick (now deceased), son's name is, I believe, Joseph.


=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1819120751-1046385114=:15908-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:37:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cabins on Mail & Express trains --part1_5b.364eaf55.2b901764_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/27/03 4:47:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > I seem to remember seeing trains pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle > with more than one cabin car at the end. If memory serves me correctly, I > think they were headed eastbound but I may be wrong on that. > Unfortunately, cannot remember what sort of train was ahead of the cabin > cars, mail/express or freight!!! This is the problem with being young > while train watching---I tended to focus more on the "trees" than the > "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loco, or practice but never tried > to put the whole thing together. > > Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a > train? Deadheads? Rider cars? Thanks. Ron > All the above, and more... Ohio railfan Charlie McCoy tells me that, up on the PRR Fort Wayne line (Eastern Division) he used to see M&E trains with two cabin cars, but not together. Apparently in the Fifties it was an everyday occurence for solid M& E trains to carry a caboose on the end for the crew. These "passenger" cabooses carried 4 digit passenger equipment numbers in the 5xxx series, and made it unnecessary to find a spare P70 for this duty. Years ago Charlie gave a clinic on this, and pointed out that in some cases there might be a cut of cars on the rear end to be dropped. Since we're talking M&E equipment, the object of the game was to drop the cars in a passenger terminal with a minimum of fuss and delay. The technique used was to put one cabin at the back of the train, and another cabin ahead of the "drop" cut. When the train arrived at the station, the crew pulled the pin behind the front cabin, climbed on, and (depending on era) displayed signals on the rear. Then the train departed, leaving its drop cut for the terminal switcher to deal with. I think there was mention of some passenger train that, for a while, carried two drop cuts on the rear, each with its cabin. Obviously, the rear cut was dropped at one town, and the other cut was left on the main at a later town. This practice explains not only cabins in the middle of M&E or passenger trains, but explains why some trains would carry M&E cars on the front and again on the back of its passenger-carrying cars. The idea was to minimize work and delay in getting the cars to destination. Of course, one's imagination runs wild about the processes by which 1. stray cabins were collected 2. unloaded M&E cars were assigned to reloads or routed back to likely reloading points. 3. foreign M&E cars (e.g. Rock Island, Florida East Coast, RF&P, N&W) were routed home. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_5b.364eaf55.2b901764_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/27/03 4:47:43 AM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


I seem to remember seeing train= s pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle with more than one cabin car at= the end.  If memory serves me correctly, I think they were headed east= bound but I may be wrong on that.  Unfortunately, cannot remember what=20= sort of train was ahead of the cabin cars, mail/express or freight!!! =20= This is the problem with being young while train watching---I tended to focu= s more on the "trees" than the "forest", i.e., I saw an interesting car, loc= o, or practice but never tried to put the whole thing together. 

Anyone have any idea as to why there would be double or more cabins on a tra= in?  Deadheads?  Rider cars?  Thanks.  Ron


All the above, and more...

Ohio railfan Charlie McCoy tells me that, up on the PRR Fort Wayne line (Eas= tern Division) he used to see M&E trains with two cabin cars, but not to= gether.  Apparently in the Fifties it was an everyday occurence for sol= id M&E trains to carry a caboose on the end for the crew.  These "p= assenger" cabooses carried 4 digit passenger equipment numbers in the 5xxx s= eries, and made it unnecessary to find a spare P70 for this duty.

Years ago Charlie gave a clinic on this, and pointed out that in some cases=20= there might be a cut of cars on the rear end to be dropped.  Since we'r= e talking M&E equipment, the object of the game was to drop the cars in=20= a passenger terminal with a minimum of fuss and delay.  The technique u= sed was to put one cabin at the back of the train, and another cabin ahead o= f the "drop" cut.  When the train arrived at the station, the crew pull= ed the pin behind the front cabin, climbed on, and (depending on era) displa= yed signals on the rear.  Then the train departed, leaving its drop cut= for the terminal switcher to deal with.

I think there was mention of some passenger train that, for a while, carried= two drop cuts on the rear, each with its cabin.  Obviously, the rear c= ut was dropped at one town, and the other cut was left on the main at a late= r town. 

This practice explains not only cabins in the middle of M&E or passenger= trains, but explains why some trains would carry M&E cars on the front=20= and again on the back of its passenger-carrying cars.  The idea was to=20= minimize work and delay in getting the cars to destination.

Of course, one's imagination runs wild about the processes by which
1. stray cabins were collected
2. unloaded M&E cars were assigned to reloads or routed back to likely r= eloading points.
3. foreign M&E cars (e.g. Rock Island, Florida East Coast, RF&P, N&a= mp;W) were routed home.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_5b.364eaf55.2b901764_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:06:59 -0500 Not to be left out - those wonderful diesels continued the balancing act right on trough to Conrail days! http://www.wsbcos.com/cr3208.jpg Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone Locomotive imbalances were cured either by adding locos to a consist, even if they weren't needed, or be deadheading them back. Plenty of examples on film from the '30s and '40s with both electrics and steam. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Panza" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boxcars behind TOFC was Cabin Cars Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:21:55 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2DEA6.411A1140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The placement of the cabin probably had more to do with the combination = of long truck centers (66') on the TOFC cars combined with the long = shank couplers (43" or 60" depending on the specific car type) than it = had anything to do with the securement of the trailer. As far as hitches = go, in my days as the TTX Maintenance Supervisor based at the Berwind = plant in Hollidaysburg, we got many a wrecked TOFC car in with about = four square feet of trailer floor with the kingpin firmly locked in the = hitch jaws. I also recall that even into the CR days, 86' an auto parts = boxcar being switched from the rear of the train at Alto when helpers = were added. =20 If the unions did require it as a safety concern, it may have been from = the days when jacks and chains were used to secure the trailers during = piggyback's infancy. =20 Jim Panza ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20 To: ndbprr@att.net ; Prr-Talk@dsop.com ; prr2249@yahoo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Boxcars behind TOFC was Cabin Cars In a message dated 02/26/2003 4:30:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, = ndbprr@att.net writes: An interesting comment about cabin cars which your post jogged in my = memory is=20 that there was a problem with them on tructrains derailing at = crossovers due to=20 the variance in wheelbase length of the respective cars. A = transistion box car=20 of intermediate length was sometimes added as a precaution. I think = I read=20 that either in the Keystone or Rails Northeast some years back. = Norm Bell Norm et. al. I was told and under the impression that initially the boxcar was a = negotiated safety feature with one of the unions. There was concern = that the trailer next to the cabin would come loose and crash into the = cabin. Thus the empty boxcar to absorb any loose trailer and add some = amount of protection for the crew. Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2DEA6.411A1140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The placement of the cabin probably had = more to do=20 with the combination of long truck centers (66') on the TOFC cars = combined with=20 the long shank couplers (43" or 60" depending on the specific car type) = than it=20 had anything to do with the securement of the trailer. As far as hitches = go, in=20 my days as the TTX Maintenance Supervisor based at the Berwind plant in=20 Hollidaysburg, we got many a wrecked TOFC car in with about four square = feet of=20 trailer floor with the kingpin firmly locked in the hitch = jaws. I also=20 recall that even into the CR days, 86' an auto parts boxcar being = switched=20 from the rear of the train at Alto when helpers were added.  =
 
If the unions did require it as a = safety concern,=20 it may have been from the days when jacks and chains were used to secure = the=20 trailers during piggyback's infancy. 
 
Jim Panza
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUVCWORR@aol.com=20
To: ndbprr@att.net ; Prr-Talk@dsop.com ; prr2249@yahoo.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, = 2003 7:28=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Boxcars = behind TOFC=20 was Cabin Cars

In a message dated 02/26/2003 4:30:48 PM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, ndbprr@att.net = writes:


An interesting comment about cabin cars which your post = jogged=20 in my memory is
that there was a problem with them on tructrains = derailing at crossovers due to
the variance in wheelbase length = of the=20 respective cars.  A transistion box car
of intermediate = length was=20 sometimes added as a precaution.  I think I read
that = either in the=20 Keystone or Rails Northeast some years back.  Norm=20 Bell


Norm et. al.

I was told and under = the=20 impression that initially the boxcar was a negotiated safety feature = with one=20 of the unions.  There was concern that the trailer next to the = cabin=20 would come loose and crash into the cabin.  Thus the empty boxcar = to=20 absorb any loose trailer and add some amount of protection for the=20 crew.

Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2DEA6.411A1140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:24:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Cabins on Mail & Express trains --part1_60.2e038600.2b903076_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've also read that 2 cabins coupled together at the end of a train could indicate a transfer taking place of the crew from one cabin to the other. It seems that crews (in the early days, at least) were assigned to or preferred specific cabin cars when traversing their district. Thus, if their usual cabin was due for periodic work, they'd be given an opportunity to transfer their 'stuff' from one car to the other during a regular assignment. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_60.2e038600.2b903076_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've also read that 2 cabins coupled together at the e= nd of a train could indicate a transfer taking place of the crew from one ca= bin to the other.  It seems that crews (in the early days, at least) we= re assigned to or preferred specific cabin cars when traversing their distri= ct.  Thus, if their usual cabin was due for periodic work, they'd be gi= ven an opportunity to transfer their 'stuff' from one car to the other durin= g a regular assignment.

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_60.2e038600.2b903076_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:21:14 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Train Movement Charts In my collection of Pennsy paper I came across a set of blueline drawings titled "Train Movement" These charts cover certain locations along the Pennsy on a certain days. Such as Overbrook to Bryn Mawr - Friday April 8th, 1955. Lewis to Jacks - Friday, April 1st, 1955. These charts show a description of the area they cover, Track speeds for the individual tracks, the breakdown of trains passing through the area on the date mentioned, and Daily Track Mile Train Occupancy. My favorite chart is the North Philadelphia to Zoo chart. It covers the Friday, March 25th, 1955. The train breakdown for that day was probably a normal day but to me it seems so incredible. There were 68 Freight and Other Trains and 234 Passenger Trains that passed through this area. A total of 302 trains! Daily Track Mile Train Occupancy was 165.8 minutes or 11 percent of the day there was some type of movement through this area. Randy Williamson http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:06:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Digital Image Works Tapes Reviews Dear Mr. Brua In the PRRT&HS Keystone you may find reviews of the Digital Image Works videos that may be helpful. The folowing reviewws were done by the Keystone "Waybill" editor Robert D. Brubaker. Pennsy Steam & Electric Yeras Vol. I -Spring 1997: page 5 Pennsy In New Jersey NY&LB/PRSL- Spring 1997: Page 5 Pennsy Steam & Electric Yeras Vol. II-Winter 2000: page 7 The review for the Pennsy Philadelhphia Terminal Division was done in the Keyston I belive in 1998 but do not recall the issue. This video was also reviewed in Trains Magazine in I believe the October 1997 issue. I'd be happy to answer any specific questions about the tapes directly off the list. Thank you SIncerely Brad C Bower Sr. Editor Digital Image Works ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: [PRR] Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:13:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2DF2B.312FD000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry and List, First, more questions! ...... What was the purpose of the messenger = in these cars? I note that many passenger trains had several B60 (messenger) cars in = their consist. Was there a messenger in each one? I do not recall seeing an answer posted to the original question. If the = US situation was the same as ours in Britain, the mail sorting cars would always have been at a premium. Sometimes it was difficult for our people = to find enough cars in the right location, in perfect mechanical order with lighting, brakes and all other equipment working properly, to fulfil the nightly requirements. It was most unlikely that one would be used for = mail storage. Regards, Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:19 PM Subject: [PRR] Mail Storage Cars > I'd like to submit a new angle on an old subject... > > In various passenger makeup books/consist reports, there are many references > to specific mail storage cars, such as "B60", "X29", or "R50". But sometimes > the requirement is for a "MS60, B60, or R50". In previous discussions, it's > been the opinion that the underlying requirement was for 60' of mail storage > space. Some held the opinion that two X29's might also be used. > > In providing 60' of mail storage space, might they have ever used a BM class > car, such as a BM70k, or BM70m? The presence of windows, or mail bag = racks > may have precluded such use. > > While we're on the subject, is there any reason they would not have = used a > spare "messenger equipped B60" when the requirement was for a "B60"? = That > is, would they run a "messenger designated" car without an attendant inside? ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2DF2B.312FD000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry and=20 List,
First, more questions! ......    What was the = purpose of=20 the messenger in
these cars?

I note that many passenger trains = had=20 several B60 (messenger) cars in their
consist. Was there a messenger = in each=20 one?

I do not recall seeing an answer posted to the original = question. If=20 the US
situation was the same as ours in Britain, the mail sorting = cars=20 would
always have been at a premium. Sometimes it was difficult for = our=20 people to
find enough cars in the right location, in perfect = mechanical order=20 with
lighting, brakes and all other equipment working properly, to = fulfil=20 the
nightly requirements. It was most unlikely that one would be used = for=20 mail
storage.

Regards,
Martin S.

----- Original = Message=20 -----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: = [PRR] Mail=20 Storage Cars


> I'd like to submit a new angle on an old=20 subject...
>
> In various passenger makeup books/consist = reports,=20 there are many
references
> to specific mail storage cars, such = as=20 "B60", "X29", or "R50". But
sometimes
> the requirement is for = a "MS60,=20 B60, or R50". In previous discussions,
it's
> been the opinion = that the=20 underlying requirement was for 60' of mail
storage
> space. = Some held=20 the opinion that two X29's might also be used.
>
> In = providing 60'=20 of mail storage space, might they have ever used a BM
class
> = car, such=20 as a BM70k, or BM70m? The presence of windows, or mail bag racks
> = may=20 have precluded such use.
>
> While we're on the subject, is = there=20 any reason they would not have used a
> spare "messenger equipped = B60"=20 when the requirement was for a "B60"? That
> is, would they run a=20 "messenger designated" car without an=20 attendant
inside?

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2DF2B.312FD000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:23:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars On the multiple cabin cars, wasn't there some sort of labor agreement in the mid-60s that required the Pennsy to upgrade the cabins. I seem to remember diesel fired stoves and refrigerators, maybe potable water, and several other comforts that weren't available in the traditional cabooses. I vaguely recall that the agreement with the BRT came at about the time and was connected to, the everlasting efforts to get rid of firemen (BLF&E) on the diesel engines. Once they were gone, the PRR put one of the trainmen in the engine, at least within yard limits. Weren't some headend cabins related to these trainmen? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:19:55 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Martin asks: > Jerry and List,First, more questions! ...... What was the purpose >of the messenger inthese cars? Often the "messenger" was a guard (probably an REA employee), accompaning valuable shipments. I was surprised to learn that sending a man along with a shipment was not an uncommon event in the steam era. Railroads at War, a book published in 1944 tells the story of the UP receiving a boxcar of airplane instruments valued at $900,000+. The Operations Dept apparently had a cow! Almost $1M of delicate instruments in a boxcar. They immediately dispatched an Ops Dept employee to "ride with" the shipment (obviously, not in the boxcar, but in the cab or cabin, and I'm sure the boxcar was the next car). This employee had to telegraph the Ops Dept at every Div point to report on the progress of getting the car safely to the consignee. >I note that many passenger trains had several B60 (messenger) cars in >theirconsist. Was there a messenger in each one? When the consist for a train on a given day is reported, then not necessarily. These cars are being reported as "equipped for messenger service"...as in the white star on the side of the B60B. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:52:23 -0500 Marty et al: Close, but no cigar. They (the unions) mandated kerosene fired stoves be installed all right, and refrigerators, PLUS aluminum sash windows, and flushable toilets. The old cabins had toilet compartments that were used to store COAL in them for the coal fired stoves. Those old stoves glowed cherry red when the train was standing still and you could see right through them. When the train started to move, the cherry red went out like a lightbulb! Where did they sXXX in the wintertime?, you ask. Ever notice the positioning of the two horizontal bars at the end of the car? One was conveniently placed at knee height and the other was for you to hold on to while conducting your business, often at speed. Came in mighty handy on occasion, plus gave the motorists with their headlights trained on the side of the train an occasional good laugh!!! As Paul Harvey says: "NOW you know the ressssssssst of the story!" Bill V. PS Now, who will be the first model railroader to place people in THAT position? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 8:23 AM To: cos@mycyberlink.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars On the multiple cabin cars, wasn't there some sort of labor agreement in the mid-60s that required the Pennsy to upgrade the cabins. I seem to remember diesel fired stoves and refrigerators, maybe potable water, and several other comforts that weren't available in the traditional cabooses. I vaguely recall that the agreement with the BRT came at about the time and was connected to, the everlasting efforts to get rid of firemen (BLF&E) on the diesel engines. Once they were gone, the PRR put one of the trainmen in the engine, at least within yard limits. Weren't some headend cabins related to these trainmen? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:15:51 -0500 The wind came past the weatherstripping in the door like it was OPEN. This caused the red stove to be highly ineffective. More weatherstripping was added to the doors and windows when the stoves were changed but that did not help much. In other words, if you were a freight conductor, you dressed WARM for both indoor and outdoor work. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:57 AM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars When the train started to move, the cherry red went out like a lightbulb ? what do you mean by this. greg -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:52 AM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; talk prr Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Cars Marty et al: Close, but no cigar. They (the unions) mandated kerosene fired stoves be installed all right, and refrigerators, PLUS aluminum sash windows, and flushable toilets. The old cabins had toilet compartments that were used to store COAL in them for the coal fired stoves. Those old stoves glowed cherry red when the train was standing still and you could see right through them. When the train started to move, the cherry red went out like a lightbulb! Where did they sXXX in the wintertime?, you ask. Ever notice the positioning of the two horizontal bars at the end of the car? One was conveniently placed at knee height and the other was for you to hold on to while conducting your business, often at speed. Came in mighty handy on occasion, plus gave the motorists with their headlights trained on the side of the train an occasional good laugh!!! As Paul Harvey says: "NOW you know the ressssssssst of the story!" Bill V. PS Now, who will be the first model railroader to place people in THAT position? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 8:23 AM To: cos@mycyberlink.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars On the multiple cabin cars, wasn't there some sort of labor agreement in the mid-60s that required the Pennsy to upgrade the cabins. I seem to remember diesel fired stoves and refrigerators, maybe potable water, and several other comforts that weren't available in the traditional cabooses. I vaguely recall that the agreement with the BRT came at about the time and was connected to, the everlasting efforts to get rid of firemen (BLF&E) on the diesel engines. Once they were gone, the PRR put one of the trainmen in the engine, at least within yard limits. Weren't some headend cabins related to these trainmen? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:22:15 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Train Movement Charts --=====================_133331841==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Fred & Bruce, Unfortunately I don't have one from Cola but I do have one from Lewis to Jacks. Here are the rest of my charts: Hudson To "A" New York - April 29, 1955 - 308 total trains. Hook to Bellevue (Maryland Division) - March 18, 1955 - 156 total trains. Gray to Bell (Middle Division) - April 1, 1955 - 126 total trains. Lewis to Jacks - April 1, 1955 - 113 total trains. Overbrook to Bryn Mawr - April 8, 1955 - 206 total trains Bengies to Bay (Maryland Division) - March 18, 1955 - 123 total trains. Odenton to Landover (Maryland Division - March 18, 1955 - 128 total trains. Randy Williamson http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm --=====================_133331841==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi Fred & Bruce,

Unfortunately I don't have one from Cola but I do have one from Lewis to Jacks.  Here are the rest of my charts:

Hudson To "A" New York - April 29, 1955 - 308 total trains.
Hook to Bellevue (Maryland Division) - March 18, 1955 - 156 total trains.
Gray to Bell (Middle Division) - April 1, 1955 - 126 total trains.
Lewis to Jacks - April 1, 1955 - 113 total trains.
Overbrook to Bryn Mawr - April 8, 1955 - 206 total trains
Bengies to Bay (Maryland Division) - March 18, 1955 - 123 total trains.
Odenton to Landover (Maryland Division - March 18, 1955 - 128 total trains.

Randy Williamson
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm --=====================_133331841==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins on front or back of train? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:29:42 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DF46.98E4A020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; I was wondering if anyone had any information on what condition(s) determined whether a cabin was placed just behind the engine(s), or on the rear of the train. Aside from the obvious ideas I have always had, were there certain criteria? Locals? Lengths of train? Number of set-outs? Thanks! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DF46.98E4A020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi all;
I was wondering if anyone had any information on what condition(s) determined whether a cabin was placed just behind the engine(s), or on the rear of the train.  Aside from the obvious ideas I have always had, were there certain criteria?  Locals?  Lengths of train?  Number of set-outs?  Thanks!
Elden
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DF46.98E4A020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins on front or back of train? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:04:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2DF21.905FFDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Locals around Chicago and other places always put the cabin behind the engine so that the crew could easily converse with one another (in the days before radios). Saved time in switching too, if the job was mainly set offs. Sometimes when there were helpers put on, they wanted the cabin behind the helpers, particularly if there were sharp curves during the snap. I believe some railroads and or states had rules against pushing on cabeese but the PRR wasn't one of them to my knowledge. Pushing against wooden cabin cars was definately a no no. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ELDEN GATWOOD Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:30 AM To: 'RickTipton@aol.com'; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins on front or back of train? Hi all; I was wondering if anyone had any information on what condition(s) determined whether a cabin was placed just behind the engine(s), or on the rear of the train. Aside from the obvious ideas I have always had, were there certain criteria? Locals? Lengths of train? Number of set-outs? Thanks! Elden ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2DF21.905FFDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Locals=20 around Chicago and other places always put the cabin behind the engine = so that=20 the crew could easily converse with one another (in the days before=20 radios).  Saved time in switching too, if the job was mainly set=20 offs.
 
Sometimes when there were helpers put on, = they wanted=20 the cabin behind the helpers, particularly if there were sharp curves = during the=20 snap.  I believe some railroads and or states had rules against = pushing on=20 cabeese but the PRR wasn't one of them to my = knowledge.
 
Pushing against wooden cabin cars was = definately a no=20 no.
 
Bill=20 V.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ELDEN = GATWOOD
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:30 = AM
To:=20 'RickTipton@aol.com'; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; = PennsyWest@egroups.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins on front or back = of=20 train?

Hi=20 all;
I=20 was wondering if anyone had any information on what condition(s) = determined=20 whether a cabin was placed just behind the engine(s), or on the rear = of the=20 train.  Aside from the obvious ideas I have always had, were = there=20 certain criteria?  Locals?  Lengths of train?  Number = of=20 set-outs?  Thanks!
Elden
 
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2DF21.905FFDC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger car was Re: [STMFC] Walthers PRR R50b Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:14:35 -0500 Mr. Mittner wrote: Take a look at this r50b photo on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2161268105&category=1445 Listers, Go to seller's other items on this page and click on the 5th photo description down. How many of these cars were there? Where were they used? Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:25:43 -0500 Listers, After reading about the Sam Rea Line in the Keystone, I was thinking about modeling it for the following reasons. (the below assumes that it was built in real life) 1) It has a 2 track mainline. (a continuous 4 track main is a little hard to do in HO) 2) It has grades, tunnels, cross overs with the mail line, an electrified tunnel with DD-1's (this could be upgraded to over head) 3) while I can model specific loco's and cars and locations the actual track work would be as I see fit. 4)Industries can be whatever I want to put in the town assuming "If you build it (railroad) they will come (industry)" I will now run and hide from the comments. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:41:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Train Movement Charts It's amazing how PRR could move all those trains with just telephones,train orders,tower ops.,and dispatchers. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:54:01 +0000 I thought of that too. The big question for me is would they have put up catenary? Portions joined the existing mainline and could be interesting start and end points. I abandoned the idea becasue I thought that it would basically be a bridge line with no industries or yards to any extent but even that is speculative. I doubt any stations would have been built and it would have been a freight secondary line with possibly some through passenger traffic. Norm Bell > Listers, > > After reading about the Sam Rea Line in the Keystone, I was thinking about > modeling it for the following reasons. (the below assumes that it was built > in real life) > > 1) It has a 2 track mainline. (a continuous 4 track main is a little hard > to do in HO) > 2) It has grades, tunnels, cross overs with the mail line, an electrified > tunnel with DD-1's (this could be upgraded to over head) > 3) while I can model specific loco's and cars and locations the actual track > work would be as I see fit. > 4)Industries can be whatever I want to put in the town assuming "If you > build it (railroad) they will come (industry)" > > I will now run and hide from the comments. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:14:29 -0500 Well if it was built instead of Penn Station around 1910, I assumed that by the 1950's there would have been 50 years of growth around it. (look what's happened to Orlando) According to the article almost all of the Blue ribbon trains would have been shifted to the line for time savings. and any expedited freights (I assume reefers, livestock) One could also pretend that a major derailment or rockslide flood fire whatever has closed the mainline forcing all traffic onto the Sam Rea Line. Chris -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 2:54 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Chany, Christopher Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line I thought of that too. The big question for me is would they have put up catenary? Portions joined the existing mainline and could be interesting start and end points. I abandoned the idea becasue I thought that it would basically be a bridge line with no industries or yards to any extent but even that is speculative. I doubt any stations would have been built and it would have been a freight secondary line with possibly some through passenger traffic. Norm Bell > Listers, > > After reading about the Sam Rea Line in the Keystone, I was thinking about > modeling it for the following reasons. (the below assumes that it was built > in real life) > > 1) It has a 2 track mainline. (a continuous 4 track main is a little hard > to do in HO) > 2) It has grades, tunnels, cross overs with the mail line, an electrified > tunnel with DD-1's (this could be upgraded to over head) > 3) while I can model specific loco's and cars and locations the actual track > work would be as I see fit. > 4)Industries can be whatever I want to put in the town assuming "If you > build it (railroad) they will come (industry)" > > I will now run and hide from the comments. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:24:26 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins on front or back of train? Elden asks: > Hi all; I was wondering if anyone had any information on what >condition(s) determined whether a cabin was placed just behind the >engine(s), or on the rear of the train. Aside from the obvious ideas I >have always had, were there certain criteria? Locals? Lengths of >train? Number of set-outs? I can think of 2 particular reasons for a second cabin on the head end. In both cases there is a cabin on the back as well... 1) Room for the extra headend crew (for example, New York required one more man on the crew than Pa) 2) Ease of protection on run around moves. Especially for locals that are "turns" (aout and back), a cabin might be placed on each end to allow the locomotive to simply run around the train, and head for home without having to swap the cabin as well. As for the exclusive use of a cabin on the head end, this would need ot be for fairly short runs as the train would still have to carry "markers"| on the rear and that might also include the requirement that a crew ride the end. This would certainlky be true if such a train reversed direction. In the video Pennsy Steam and Elelctric Years Vol, a local is shown going through Downinton with an H class steamer and an N6B cabin together, in the middle of the train. A crewman is also riding each end. Clearly, this local is set up this way for leading and trailing point drops. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:33:51 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Chris said, "After reading about the Sam Rea Line in the Keystone, I was thinking about modeling it..." Sounds like a creative great idea to me. I'd like to see what you do with it. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:41:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger car Chris Chany wrote: >Mr. Mittner wrote: > Take a look at this r50b photo on eBay. >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2161268105&category=1445 > > Listers, > >Go to seller's other items on this page and click on the 5th photo >description down. How many of these cars were there? Where were they used? Chris, I'm not sure of why you gave us the "follow the dotted line" approach rather than the direct URL http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1445&item=2161153120...to I hope this IS the car you referred to (as the lists change as Items sell) This appears to be the one-of-a-kind articulated mP54 which was built as an experiment in the 1930's IIRC...I know I have seen a 3/4 view of the same car. Of interest too is that the car rode on inside bearing trucks . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Admiral consist Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:04:34 +0000 Turned my Cedco calendar over to March annleafed through the rest of the year. The December picture is E7's and the first car is 4004 in a very similar paint scheme to the Cogo and Senator. It has a tuscan letterboard instead of a stripe. I don't recall seeing this car or similar ones before. Was this an oddball or was the Admiral a stainless train also? Who made it and how many cars in the series? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:13:39 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Admiral consist Norm, Car Class Info Paint Trucks P82R Coach-85' Budd-1939 #4000,4002-4014-Seats 66 rotate-recline FOM/PRR/St.St. 2DP7, 2DP8 P82R Coach-85' Budd-1939 #4001-for thru service-Seats 66 rotate-recline FOM/PRR/St.St. 2DP15, 2DP8 P82aR Coach-85' Budd-1939 #4014,18-Not painted as del. Used as display car at 1939 Worlds Fair-Seats 60 rotate- recline St. St./PRR 2DP8, 2DP15 P82aR Coach-85' Budd-1939 #4015-4018-Assign. to SAL-Seats 60 rotate-recline SAL 2DP8, 2DP15 Hope this helps. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > Turned my Cedco calendar over to March annleafed through the rest of the year. > The December picture is E7's and the first car is 4004 in a very similar paint > scheme to the Cogo and Senator. It has a tuscan letterboard instead of a > stripe. I don't recall seeing this car or similar ones before. Was this an > oddball or was the Admiral a stainless train also? Who made it and how many > cars in the series? Thank you, Norm Bell > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:31:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line --part1_49.2b970b00.2b913d55_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/28/2003 3:31:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > I assume reefers, livestock Chris, also all the LCL trains, mail express without any drops or pickups in Pittsburgh.. Rich Orr --part1_49.2b970b00.2b913d55_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/28/2003 3:31:57 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes:


I assume reefers, livestock

Chris, also all the LCL trains, mail express without any drops or pickups in= Pittsburgh..

Rich Orr --part1_49.2b970b00.2b913d55_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:37:35 EST Subject: [PRR] P54 with 3 trucks --part1_f9.2a548695.2b914cbf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a nice picture and some details about this car in Volume I of PASSENGER EQUIPMENT OF THE PRR by Liljestrand & Sweetland Ray Burghart Life time SPF --part1_f9.2a548695.2b914cbf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a nice picture and some details=20= about this car in Volume I of PASSENGER EQUIPMENT OF THE PRR by Liljestrand=20= & Sweetland

Ray Burghart
Life time SPF
 --part1_f9.2a548695.2b914cbf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:58:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Toilet?? From: "Stephen H. Prosser" > Where did they sXXX in the wintertime?, you ask. Ever notice the > positioning of the two horizontal bars at the end of the car? One was > conveniently placed at knee height and the other was for you to hold on > to while conducting your business, often at speed. Came in mighty handy > on occasion, plus gave the motorists with their headlights trained on > the side of the train an occasional good laugh!!! > > As Paul Harvey says: "NOW you know the ressssssssst of the story!" > > Bill V. That's what I love about this list. Thanks Bill!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:06:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabins on front or back of train? In a message dated 2/28/03 10:59:31 AM Central Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << Locals around Chicago and other places always put the cabin behind the engine so that the crew could easily converse with one another (in the days before radios). >> Was gonna ask this on Pennsy West list, but there are probably enough Indiana spfs to answer it here. What was the Indiana rule for cabins (crews?) on both headend and rearend? Locals only? Dates in effect? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:08:55 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabins on front or back of train? --=====================_164931919==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bob, If my memory serves me correctly the law was if the train was over 69 cars their had to be a swing brakeman added to the crew. Randy --=====================_164931919==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bob,

If my memory serves me correctly the law was if the train was over 69 cars their had to be a swing brakeman added to the crew.

Randy --=====================_164931919==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:22:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: K4 & K5 Differences. --part1_d3.1932a1cf.2b91654e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/26/2003 12:10:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, caseyj@igateway.com writes: > And the American Flyer S-Gauge Pennsylvania Pacific from c. 1946 on was a K5. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_d3.1932a1cf.2b91654e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/26/2= 003 12:10:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, caseyj@igateway.com writes:


Both Westside and Key have=20= made the K5.


And the American Flyer S-Gauge Pennsylvania Pacific from c. 1946 on=20
was a K5.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_d3.1932a1cf.2b91654e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:51:25 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b Messenger Cars From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3129306685_1214744_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Martin: The messenger-equipped B60b's had a desk and toilet for the Railway Express Agency messenger. Messengers often accompanied express shipments and would be responsible for unloading the packages at the correct station stops along the way. Messenger-equipped cars were distinguished by the large roof vents and the small gold/deluxe/or buff star above the car number. I believe that the equipment registers did not distinguish between messenger-equipped and standard B60b's, but in our unscientific survey for Hell Gate Models, we estimate that approximately 25% of B60b's were messenger equipped. Not all trains had messenger cars, but you can't model PRR passenger trains without these distinctive cars. Doug Nelson Hell Gate Models. ---------- From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" To: "PRR-Talk" Subject: [PRR] Date: Fri, Feb 28, 2003, 5:13 AM Jerry and List, First, more questions! ...... What was the purpose of the messenger in these cars? I note that many passenger trains had several B60 (messenger) cars in their consist. Was there a messenger in each one? I do not recall seeing an answer posted to the original question. If the US situation was the same as ours in Britain, the mail sorting cars would always have been at a premium. Sometimes it was difficult for our people to find enough cars in the right location, in perfect mechanical order with lighting, brakes and all other equipment working properly, to fulfil the nightly requirements. It was most unlikely that one would be used for mail storage. Regards, Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:19 PM Subject: [PRR] Mail Storage Cars > I'd like to submit a new angle on an old subject... > > In various passenger makeup books/consist reports, there are many references > to specific mail storage cars, such as "B60", "X29", or "R50". But sometimes > the requirement is for a "MS60, B60, or R50". In previous discussions, it's > been the opinion that the underlying requirement was for 60' of mail storage > space. Some held the opinion that two X29's might also be used. > > In providing 60' of mail storage space, might they have ever used a BM class > car, such as a BM70k, or BM70m? The presence of windows, or mail bag racks > may have precluded such use. > > While we're on the subject, is there any reason they would not have used a > spare "messenger equipped B60" when the requirement was for a "B60"? That > is, would they run a "messenger designated" car without an attendant inside? --MS_Mac_OE_3129306685_1214744_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR]  B60b Messenger Cars Hi Martin:

The messenger-equipped B60b's had a desk and toilet for the Railway Express= Agency messenger.  Messengers often accompanied express shipments and = would be responsible for unloading the packages at the correct station stops= along the way.  Messenger-equipped cars were distinguished by the larg= e roof vents and the small gold/deluxe/or buff star above the car number.
I believe that the equipment registers did not distinguish between messenge= r-equipped and standard B60b's, but in our unscientific survey for Hell Gate= Models, we estimate that approximately 25% of B60b's were messenger equippe= d.

Not all trains had messenger cars, but you can't model PRR passenger trains= without these distinctive cars.

Doug Nelson
Hell Gate Models.

----------
From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" <martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.ne= t>
To: "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR]
Date: Fri, Feb 28, 2003, 5:13 AM


Jerry and List,
First, more questions! ......    What was the purpose of the= messenger in
these cars?

I note that many passenger trains had several B60 (messenger) cars in their=
consist. Was there a messenger in each one?

I do not recall seeing an answer posted to the original question. If the US=
situation was the same as ours in Britain, the mail sorting cars would
always have been at a premium. Sometimes it was difficult for our people to=
find enough cars in the right location, in perfect mechanical order with lighting, brakes and all other equipment working properly, to fulfil the nightly requirements. It was most unlikely that one would be used for mail<= BR> storage.

Regards,
Martin S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com= >
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: [PRR] Mail Storage Cars


> I'd like to submit a new angle on an old subject...
>
> In various passenger makeup books/consist reports, there are many
references
> to specific mail storage cars, such as "B60", "X29"= ;, or "R50". But
sometimes
> the requirement is for a "MS60, B60, or R50". In previous di= scussions,
it's
> been the opinion that the underlying requirement was for 60' of mail storage
> space. Some held the opinion that two X29's might also be used.
>
> In providing 60' of mail storage space, might they have ever used a BM=
class
> car, such as a BM70k, or BM70m? The presence of windows, or mail bag r= acks
> may have precluded such use.
>
> While we're on the subject, is there any reason they would not have us= ed a
> spare "messenger equipped B60" when the requirement was for = a "B60"? That
> is, would they run a "messenger designated" car without an a= ttendant
inside?


--MS_Mac_OE_3129306685_1214744_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:18:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Restored PRR Loco&Cabin --part1_1e.b8df631.2b918e7d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out the restored PRR GP-30 and N8 cabin car on this shortline. http://www.nshr.com/ Evan Leisey --part1_1e.b8df631.2b918e7d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Check out the restored PRR GP-30 and N8 cabin c= ar on this shortline.

  http://www.nshr.com/

  Evan Leisey --part1_1e.b8df631.2b918e7d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!
I have one item left for sale on e-Bay, item = #2156403574 (4 PRR Time Tables) . Other = items will be=20 forthcoming in the near future.

In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes:

<< I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of

Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can

understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down.

**********************

Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the

Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the

plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to

the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the

like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern'

PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as

they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-484332006-1044468623=:25587-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] PRR/NYC computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:29:40 -0500 Wow, I guess I should have waited for the next digest of replies to Bob Zoeller's question about NYC's computers. Both Gregg M. and Bill V. replied with the real answers, vs. my obviously bad memory. Before my post, of course -- the hazards of getting PRR-talk in digest form! "Better to be silent and be thought a fool, that to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain Thanks, guys. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:44:39 -0500 Doug Drew wrote: They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for > NYC, IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk > to each other after the merger. > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading > old Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the > one that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known > period where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and > yardmasters had yards chock full of cars, not knowing where to send > them. > > Doug Drew Bill V. writes: As I recall, both (computer)systems had their individual merits and demerits. I guess it was six of one or half a dozen as to which one was better. My problem with the whole thing was that the two railroad top managements should have gotten together BEFORE the merger and ironed that one out. As it turned out, they didn't, until the PC was darned near into bankruptcy and most of the players in the debacle had long since resigned (I was one of the first to do that, 6-30-58). Perleman ran the show strictly by the seat of his pants. His philosophy was "if it looks good in the catalogue buy one. If that one works, buy some more. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" The PRR on the other hand was very conservative, almost to a fault. They would buy one of something and send it to the Altoona Test Department for endless testing. So much testing that by the time they decided to buy a second one, the one they had tested had become obsolete. Then each office on the system had to individually order one for themselves (Xerox Machines is a good example that comes to mind). The requisition had to go up the daisy chain of command for approval, and after the Division Supt. signed off on the requisition, then Philadelphia had to buy it and have it shipped to the place that ordered it. This often took months and months. Over on the NYC Perleman left the (testing) responsibility in the hands of the individual location. If the product didn't work out, then shame on them, let them go out and buy a replacement. This exemplified why the PRR called themselves the "Standard Railroad of the World". The pencil sharpeners were all alike, but the locomotives were all different. I used to say that the only reason that the Pennsy didn't buy locomotives from Lionel is because they were all built to the wrong gauge track! Bill V. (Don't get me started on the wreck of the Penn Central, PLEASE) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Doug Drew Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:58 PM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards > and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. > >> > > BZ: Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of > the day? > > DD: Yes, he did. Of course, the system they went with was totally > different in configuration from the PRR's. > > The systems chosen reflected the different management philosophies > between the two lines > > I believe Pennsy's data processing was centralized in Philadelphia, > while the Central's had various data processing 'nodes' around their > system. I've read that Perlman preferred to be out on the property > 'working out of his hat' and gave his regional superintendants more > authority vs. the PRR's running everything out of Philadelphia. > > Central's was better for keeping track of trains and cars and moving > traffic and generated this kind of data faster, Pennsy's was slower > but better for accounting and reporting purposes (given the amount of > paperwork involved in car accounting alone, this was important). > Central was focused on moving expensive finished goods and priority > freight, Pennsy was far more focused on moving mineral trains and raw > materials. > > The Central used CRT terminals, Pennsy's used teletype terminals. > > They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for > NYC, IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk > to each other after the merger. > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading > old Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the > one that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known > period where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and > yardmasters had yards chock full of cars, not knowing where to send > them. > > Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:48:22 -0500 The combined system used by PC had features of both systems. I recall that car inventory (DICCS) and the sales reports were basically the NYC system. PRR sales types missed the Daily New Loads Reports as we went to weekly reports, except at the end of the month, where we got the last nine or ten days (except Feb) as the 4th week. Thankfully the Friden "Flexowriter" system used by the PRR to input yard and billing data was junked.. The stuff was so noisy that as soon as those operating it got enough seniority, they bid off the jobs, so PRR had to train yet another clerk in Flexowriter operation.. NIH was alive and well in the industry through the 1980's. During that time, the AN, with 100 miles of track and 100 employees, designed its very own computer system for rating and billing, car accounting and many other functions. Thankfully, the development of the ISS by the AAR ended the era of each road going its own way. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems > > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and > > innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> > > > > BZ: Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the > > day? > > > > DD: Yes, he did. Of course, the system they went with was totally > > different in configuration from the PRR's. > > > > The systems chosen reflected the different management philosophies between > > the two lines > > > > I believe Pennsy's data processing was centralized in Philadelphia, while > > the Central's had various data processing 'nodes' around their system. > > I've read that Perlman preferred to be out on the property 'working out of > > his hat' and gave his regional superintendants more authority vs. the > > PRR's running everything out of Philadelphia. > > > > Central's was better for keeping track of trains and cars and moving > > traffic and generated this kind of data faster, Pennsy's was slower but > > better for accounting and reporting purposes (given the amount of > > paperwork involved in car accounting alone, this was important). Central > > was focused on moving expensive finished goods and priority freight, > > Pennsy was far more focused on moving mineral trains and raw materials. > > > > The Central used CRT terminals, Pennsy's used teletype terminals. > > > > They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for NYC, > > IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk to each > > other after the merger. > > > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading old > > Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the one > > that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known period > > where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and yardmasters had yards > > chock full of cars, not knowing where to send them. > > > > Doug Drew > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:54:45 EST Subject: [PRR] Wreck of the Penn Central In a message dated 2/5/03 12:36:58 PM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << (Don't get me started on the wreck of the Penn Central, PLEASE) >> As I've said, I left the Pennsy in 1966 and, for the most part, never looked back. I did, however, pick up one document that covers the wreck of the Penn Central. I don't remember where I got it but it may have been at the old GPO office in Washington, DC. There may be copies around and, you may be able to get one from your Congressman's office. It is titled: "The Financial Collapse of the Penn Central Company," Staff Report of the Securities and Exchange Commission to the Special Subcommittee on Investigations, Harley O. Staggers, Chairman, August, 1972. [Subcommittee Print], Printed for the use of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. Geez, that's 30 years ago; maybe your Congressman wouldn't be able to get a copy. I've thumbed through and found more detail than anyone really needs. There is lots of finger pointing and claims that the other guys were fudging the books. Bevan (PRR) began a diary in 1967 and I see some grumping at "S.T.S" (Stuart Saunders - PRR) about fudging per diem costs. It is not well indexed so it is tough to pick specific subjects. But, if there are questions, I'll try to find answers. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Passenger cars --0-1353579252-1044472672=:10361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Now that I know what I'm looking for, I noticed that Car Numbers and Consists has floor plans of a couple of "partitioned" and "divided" cars, for the Southern Railway. On a different subject, when did Pullman begin painting cars two-tone gray rather than Pullman Green? Anyone know of a color photograph on line of a car so painted? Thank you. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1353579252-1044472672=:10361 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Now that I know what I'm looking for, I noticed that Car Numbers and Consists has floor plans of a couple of "partitioned" and "divided" cars, for the Southern Railway.

On a different subject, when did Pullman begin painting cars two-tone gray rather than Pullman Green?  Anyone know of a color photograph on line of a car so painted?  Thank you.  Ron

 


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1353579252-1044472672=:10361-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:20:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Weekend From: Jerry Britton The Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS has a meeting this Sunday, February 9th, at 1:30 p.m. The meeting will be at the Otterbein United Methodist Church, York, Pa. Park out back and enter through the rear door. The meeting is open to the public, so feel free to join in. Besides a short business meeting, this is the annual "LCL" meeting. Members are encouraged to bring along any PRR stuff to show off. Typically this would include any railroadiana or models acquired or built during the past year. Past displays have included track charts, valuation maps (all of Enola, one year), Board of Director trip books, etc. Always something new and unique to see. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] RE: Wreck of the Penn Central Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:36:58 -0500 OK. I'll blow my own horn for one short toot. If you all will dig out the Keystone from a couple of years ago. I forget the exact issue but it was the green one with the U-25bs on the cover. In it you will find an article by MOI that pretty well sums up my feelings on the subject. It was in rebuttal to the interview with George Weaver. After you have read that article, I will be glad to answer questions. Bill V. (Could have wrote the book Wreck of the Penn Central before it was published but it probably wouldn't sell at the time) -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:55 PM To: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com; DDrew@channing-bete.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Wreck of the Penn Central In a message dated 2/5/03 12:36:58 PM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << (Don't get me started on the wreck of the Penn Central, PLEASE) >> As I've said, I left the Pennsy in 1966 and, for the most part, never looked back. I did, however, pick up one document that covers the wreck of the Penn Central. I don't remember where I got it but it may have been at the old GPO office in Washington, DC. There may be copies around and, you may be able to get one from your Congressman's office. It is titled: "The Financial Collapse of the Penn Central Company," Staff Report of the Securities and Exchange Commission to the Special Subcommittee on Investigations, Harley O. Staggers, Chairman, August, 1972. [Subcommittee Print], Printed for the use of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. Geez, that's 30 years ago; maybe your Congressman wouldn't be able to get a copy. I've thumbed through and found more detail than anyone really needs. There is lots of finger pointing and claims that the other guys were fudging the books. Bevan (PRR) began a diary in 1967 and I see some grumping at "S.T.S" (Stuart Saunders - PRR) about fudging per diem costs. It is not well indexed so it is tough to pick specific subjects. But, if there are questions, I'll try to find answers. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1 Observation Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:47:40 -0500 Buzz wrote: Only a few GG1's had the louver relocation. Several different styles were used. The problem was basically solved with improved motor insulation, so the remainder of the fleet retained their original louvers. Buzz Bill V. writes: By the time the remainder of the G's were available for the louvre modification, the E-44s had arrived and there was little or no money spent on the Gs. Very few received any kind of an overhaul. We were just plain out of money. Not many passenger trains left to pull etc. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Burnley, Charles Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:39 AM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:03 AM To: 'Prr-talk@dsop.cim' Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation Lee, Only a few GG1's had the louver relocation. Several different styles were used. The problem was basically solved with improved motor insulation, so the remainder of the fleet retained their original louvers. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: edmund burbage [mailto:leeprrswitchkey@msn.com] Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:27 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Observation I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is Three GG-1's with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive. Is my 72 year old memory failing me wasn't this problem corrected after the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged these intakes? I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near the Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the picture caption?? Lee Burbage ************************************************************************ **** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. ************************************************************************ **** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Passenger cars Now that I know what I'm looking for, I noticed that Car Numbers and Consists has floor plans of a couple of "partitioned" and "divided" cars, for the Southern Railway. On a different subject, when did Pullman begin painting cars two-tone gray rather than Pullman Green? Anyone know of a color photograph on line of a car so painted? Thank you. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:00:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Thanks Mr Panza, You must have read my mind. I was just about to ask about PRR"s "PR- Preference" freights. Looking for info on PRR's "AST" 2 and 4. Thanks, Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:50:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger cars --part1_a2.3311c3dd.2b72fd41_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe Pullman switched to the 2-tone grey scheme about the time that the prewar streamlined cars started coming off the assembly line. Corrections anyone?? Chris Baker #1918 --part1_a2.3311c3dd.2b72fd41_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe Pullman switched to the 2-tone grey scheme a= bout the time that the prewar streamlined cars started coming off the assemb= ly line.

Corrections anyone??

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_a2.3311c3dd.2b72fd41_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:29:56 EST Subject: [PRR] K-4 1361 Here is a follow-up reply to the 1361 staybolt rumor. Bushing down staybolt holes in wrapper sheets was common practice on many roads. If you think about it (and/or know anything about boiler work) you have to do something to reduce the size of the staybolt holes in the wrapper sheet eventually. Typically, staybolts start out being 15/16th or 1" dia. Each time a staybolt is changed out you ream and tap the hole to the next larger size (by 1/16ths) up to 1-1/8th or 1-3/16th which is generally considered to be the largest practical staybolt size. After the locomotive has had three or four new inner fireboxes, the staybolts are getting too large. So to save and get more use from the wrapper sheet, the holes in it are bushed down to original size and the process begins again. Changing out inner fireboxes was done continuously, they are consumable just like brake shoes, but the wrapper sheet was seldom renewed. J. David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR X43 Boxcars Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:33:24 -0500 I have all 16 Branchline PRR X43b's and X43c's. What type of roofwalk was used on these cars. I want to replace the plastic ones with metal ones. I realize that discussing PRR X43's can open a can of worms. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:00:27 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (=?iso-8859-1?Q?c=B4td?=) Bill Volkmer scribit: > I seem to remember the pellets (looked like rabbit poop) coming from > either Liberia or Libya when the ore jennies first came out. That would be Liberia, as there is now iron ore Libya (just crude oil...). Some tangent: To ship the ore from Liberia, a railraod was built from the inland mines to the port, and some unique German/American engines used: The old and famous loco builders Henschel in Kassel (now part of Thyssen and, if I remember correctly, Bombardier) got the contract to built these engines under EMD- license, with genuine GM engines. They look a bit like SD40s, and were the heaviest single engines ever built within Germany. Quite some task to move them from the factory to the shipping port! Henschel started into the loco business with another American partnership, building its first engine called "Drache" (Dragon) in 1848 with a license from Norris (bringing me back into PRR-country!). Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:41:54 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (=?iso-8859-1?Q?c=B4td?=) Dear Bob and list, Bobspf@aol.com scribit: > Sorry to "pile on", but can > you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for > "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the > only pellet? This is what the "Glossary of Geology" of the American Geological Insitute says on Taconite: "(a) A local term used in the Lake Superior iron- bearing district of Minnesota for any bedded ferruginous chert or variously tinted jaspery rock, esp. on that enclosed the Mesabi (sic!) iron ores (granular hematite); an unleached iron formation containing magnetite, hematite, siderite, and hydrous iron silicates. The term is specifically applied to this rock when the iron content, either banded or disseminated, is at least 25 %, so that natural leaching can convert it into a low-grade iron ore, with 50 to 60 % iron. (b) Since World War II, a low-grade iron formation suitable for concentration of magnetite and hematite by fine grinding and magnetic treatment, from which pellets containing 62 to 65 % iron can be manufactured." I think, this answers the question completely. Taconite is the name of a certain rock type containing the ore, which mainly is hematite and magnetite. And the pellets are a step of ore refinement, increasing the iron content of the material and thus reducing shipping volume. Pellets will also be even denser, i.e. heavier for the same volume, as the raw ore. Pellets are used in other ore types, too, so they are not restricted to "taconite". I would guess that Taconite pellets can also form some nice red dust, even if the pellets look more grey. And, because of the step for enrichment of the ore, they might be slightly magnetic, if the content of magnetite is high enough. Bobspf@aol.com continued: > Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on > the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for > Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the > pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their > cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on > the subject). > A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the > timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. I do not know if much of the Swedish ore went to North America. It was shipped on the Malmbanen (ore railway, see the new Roco engines and ore cars) from Kiruna and Gaellivara, where the "iron mountains" are, to either Lulea on the Baltic ore to Narviik on the Norwegian Atlantic coast. Due to the Gulf Stream, Narvik is ice-free all winter. >From Lulea, shipments would be directed mainly to Europe; from Narvik, a part could be headed for USA, too. Iron ore from South America stems mainly from the Minas Gerais region in Brasil and is similar to "taconite". This is also a similar type as the one mined in Labrador. I would guess that, following taditional trade lines, most of the imported iron ore in Eastern US came from Liberia and Brasil. As for the time of the change, the pellet process took over after World War II (see above). Because it includes heavy and expensive machinery, it would have been introduced in steps, and with smallers mines probably shipping raw ore until the end of their operation. Regards from the hematite area of Germany, Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines Delmarva Division arranged freight services were all "D-somethings" both odd and even numbers. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva but who can't remember where he saved the info "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:15:46 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 Delmarva Division arranged freight services were all "D-somethings" both odd and even numbers. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva but who can't remember where he saved the info ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c´td) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 16:43:08 +0000 My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't lead to the book definition. Taconite as the term is used in the steel industry with which I am familiar is crushed iron ore (to a talc size) that is magnetically separated from the non-iron bearing rock and pelletized to produce a marble sized ball that is about 75-70% iron. The advantage is that the iron content is consistent which is necessary for today's quality reuqirements. In addition the mills don't pay to ship a waste product. In the past ten to fifteen years there have been efforts somewhat successfully to include limestone in the pellets to insure greater contact with the ore to remove impurities. the only problem is that the equipment used doesn't hold up that well in the basic environment this creates. This particulalry affects the stainless steel grates on which the taconite pellets are downdraft roasted to harden them. Prior to that they are just a bunch of mud balls. If you ever get the chance to visit a taconite plant it is a rather impressive sight. Empire mines in Palmer Michigan is probably the best one in my opinion because it is on the side of a mountain and you walk downhill the whole way but it had forty or fifty crushers that are about 30'x40' followed by slurry tanks to conentrate the ore fines and forty or fifty rotary ball mills that create the pellets and an equal number of furnaces that harden the pellets. It was running 24/7 the last time I was there. I don't know of any grade of iron ore that is called taconite. It is a man made product. > Dear Bob and list, > > Bobspf@aol.com scribit: > > > Sorry to "pile on", but can > > you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for > > "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the > > only pellet? > > This is what the "Glossary of Geology" of the > American Geological Insitute says on Taconite: > > "(a) A local term used in the Lake Superior iron- > bearing district of Minnesota for any bedded > ferruginous chert or variously tinted jaspery rock, > esp. on that enclosed the Mesabi (sic!) iron ores > (granular hematite); an unleached iron formation > containing magnetite, hematite, siderite, and > hydrous iron silicates. > The term is specifically applied to this rock when > the iron content, either banded or disseminated, > is at least 25 %, so that natural leaching can > convert it into a low-grade iron ore, with 50 to > 60 % iron. > (b) Since World War II, a low-grade iron > formation suitable for concentration of > magnetite and hematite by fine grinding > and magnetic treatment, from which pellets > containing 62 to 65 % iron can be > manufactured." > > I think, this answers the question completely. > Taconite is the name of a certain rock type > containing the ore, which mainly is hematite > and magnetite. And the pellets are a step > of ore refinement, increasing the iron content > of the material and thus reducing shipping > volume. Pellets will also be even denser, i.e. > heavier for the same volume, as the raw ore. > Pellets are used in other ore types, too, so > they are not restricted to "taconite". > I would guess that Taconite pellets can also > form some nice red dust, even if the pellets > look more grey. And, because of the step > for enrichment of the ore, they might be > slightly magnetic, if the content of magnetite > is high enough. > > Bobspf@aol.com continued: > > > Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on > > the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for > > Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the > > pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their > > cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on > > the subject). > > A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the > > timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. > > I do not know if much of the Swedish ore > went to North America. It was shipped on > the Malmbanen (ore railway, see the new > Roco engines and ore cars) from Kiruna > and Gaellivara, where the "iron mountains" > are, to either Lulea on the Baltic ore to Narviik > on the Norwegian Atlantic coast. Due to the > Gulf Stream, Narvik is ice-free all winter. > From Lulea, shipments would be directed > mainly to Europe; from Narvik, a part could > be headed for USA, too. > > Iron ore from South America stems mainly > from the Minas Gerais region in Brasil and > is similar to "taconite". This is also a similar > type as the one mined in Labrador. I would > guess that, following taditional trade lines, > most of the imported iron ore in Eastern US > came from Liberia and Brasil. > > As for the time of the change, the pellet > process took over after World War II > (see above). Because it includes heavy > and expensive machinery, it would have > been introduced in steps, and with smallers > mines probably shipping raw ore until the > end of their operation. > > Regards from the hematite area of Germany, > > Burkhard Sanner > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Book seen at Amherst Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:08:48 -0500 Listers, Forgot to mention this earlier this week when posting about the Amherst show. While complaining to Weekend Chief about the lack of a PRR calendar, (It seems they got a lot of complaints for the lack of a PRR one.) I noticed in their discount bin, 3 copies of The PRR in Indiana I don't know if this book is readily available but if anyone is looking for a copy you could try them. The 3 copies where there with 20 min to go on Sun. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:30:50 -0500 Group, Wanted to know how accurate these models are? Looks nice to me but What do I know! Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:15:04 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[PRR]=20PRR=20ore=20traffic=20(c=B4td)?= In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:16 AM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't lead to the book definition. >> Norm, I have to ask both you and Burkhard to clarify his statement that the pellets are heavier than raw ore. The article I read about the G39 high side said that it was developed to fill to load versus the low side G38 which did not with the advent of the pellets. Is there more air in the pellet load due to the configuration? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:13:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CDE1.84A2E980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the = flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the = Pennsylvania RR System? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CDE1.84A2E980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on = the=20 flat metal plate sign.
 
Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the=20 Pennsylvania RR System?
 
 
=
 
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CDE1.84A2E980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:23:08 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CE0C.CC4AD1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sam, Are you talking about Tichy's 52' composite war emergency gon? I do not have one yet, but John Johnson used one to build a nice accurate representation of a G30 (not the steel side rebuild G30a). I think he worked on the brake system to make it closer to a G30, though. The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco? Therefore, there must be a revised mounting arrangement and all. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:31 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Group, Wanted to know how accurate these models are? Looks nice to me but What do I know! Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CE0C.CC4AD1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola

Sam, Are you talking about Tichy's 52' composite war = emergency gon?  I do not have one yet, but John Johnson used one = to build a nice accurate representation of a G30 (not the steel side = rebuild G30a).  I think he worked on the brake system to make it = closer to a G30, though. The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax = system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco?  Therefore, = there must be a revised mounting arrangement and all.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:31 AM
To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola


Group,

Wanted to know how accurate these models are?  = Looks nice to me but What do
I know!

Sam Vastano








_______________________________________________________________= __
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 = months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail


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For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CE0C.CC4AD1A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c´td) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 18:55:52 +0000 There isn't much question that pellets are going to weigh more for the same volume than ore. Pellets are quite heavy and feel like you are holding a ball bearing of the same size. I wonder if the cars were developed because the trucks could withstand greater loading than the car was capable of carrying? I am purely guessing because the iron ores were played out before I got into the steel industry and have absolutely zero experience in that area. The G39's appear to be a pretty standard size for ore cars without doing some volumetric research. > In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:16 AM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't lead to > the > book definition. >> > > Norm, I have to ask both you and Burkhard to clarify his statement that the > pellets are heavier than raw ore. The article I read about the G39 high side > said that it was developed to fill to load versus the low side G38 which did > not with the advent of the pellets. Is there more air in the pellet load due > to the configuration? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] question --0-1588868387-1044558814=:77776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am not positve. But, I seem to remeber it as a stop on the PRR Chestnut Hill commuter line out of Suburban Station, Philadelphia. Please correct me if I am wrong. Randy Harrison edmund burbage wrote:I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee BurbageBMCM USCG-Ret.Ex Railroader --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1588868387-1044558814=:77776 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I am not positve. But, I seem to remeber it as a stop on the PRR Chestnut Hill commuter line out of Suburban Station, Philadelphia.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Randy Harrison

 edmund burbage <leeprrswitchkey@msn.com> wrote:

I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign.
 
Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System?
 
 
 
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1588868387-1044558814=:77776-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:02:48 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] question > I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on >the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or >Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? > leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage >BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader Now, I'm not sure if the sign is related, to this but those of you who have ever lived/worked in Philly should find "Tasker" familiar...Tasker Homes is located right of I76 in South Philly. Tasker Street was crossed by the Delaware Extension, within the limits of Penrose Interlocking. You can see this on Mark Bej's site at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/penrose.gif Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:15:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] question From: Jerry Britton Well, I just happen to carry a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954", a cd-rom published by, uh, myself, in my planner. Found the answer rather quickly... (shameless plug!!!) In the Delmarva Division employee timetable number 6, published September 26, 1954, on page 4, TASKER is listed as a Block Station on the Main Line at milepost 6.5 (distance from Wilmington), but notes that it is on the Maryland Division. The Maryland Division employee timetable number 7, of the same date, shows TASKER on page 11 as a Block Station on the Delaware Branch and quotes the same milepost. On 2/6/03 3:02 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on >> the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or >> Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? >> leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage >> BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader > > Now, I'm not sure if the sign is related, to this but those of you who have > ever lived/worked in Philly should find "Tasker" familiar...Tasker Homes is > located right of I76 in South Philly. Tasker Street was crossed by the > Delaware Extension, within the limits of Penrose Interlocking. You can see > this on Mark Bej's site at > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/penrose.gif > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:36:44 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] PR (specifically) and Arranged Freight Schedules (comments) In a message dated 2/5/03 1:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com writes: > According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for > Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but the article > claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also states that the > trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to customers at Chicago and St. > Louis or to interchange with connecting lines. The PR trains replaced AC, > SW and LCL symbols. Of course, these were all westbounds and perishable > train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC era. CG-2 (59th Street to Greenville) was another persistent eastbound schedule, running from at least 1955 to 1974. > > PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the > TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM. It carries > piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight. > > PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago at > 5:50 AM the second morning. It carries piggyback shipments, autoparts and > merchandise. > > PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars received the same day from other > trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at 6:45 > AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting railroads. > > PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and general merchandise leaves Harsimus > Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from Baltimore and Harrisburg and > arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the second morning. > > PR-9 carrying piggyback and general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM > and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the second morning. > > PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with cars received form Eastern Cities and > delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the next day. > > The article made no mention of eastbounds that surfaced later on. > Thanks, Jim - that's a helpful addition to my info-at-hand. 1. Westbound PRIORITY seems a good explanation of the use of PR-xx in 1966. I don't see any eastbound PR's until after the merger. 2. However, in the Oct ETT, there were already at least two more PR's shown: a. PR-15 from Pitcairn to Peoria, and b. PR-17 from Pitcairn to Blue Island (Indiana Harbor Belt, Chicago) 3. In addition, the PR's schedules themselves can be changeable. Somewhere I've picked up info at slight variance with the Pennsy article you cite: a. PR-9 comes from Greenville NJ and runs to the Alton & Southern (probably MoPac connections) b. PR-11 comes from Pitcairn and runs to ? Yard on the TRRA in East St. Louis. A couple of thoughts: 1. The object of Arranged Freight Schedules was to organize a network of trains that expedited traffic by collecting like destinations early and then kept them out of as many yards as possible -- a car generally lost about a day for every hump yard it entered - and more at a "gateway" like Chicago or St. Louis. The systems AFS was created and maintained by a headquarters activity called something like "Operations Planning" (anybody know the correct title in PRR days?). 2. A hot AFS train was aimed at long distance, highly competitive and/or perishable traffic, where speed and reliability counted. So instead of dumping cars at the end of a run into a 59th Street (Chicago) or a Rose Lake (East St. Louis), they might tend to act like a runthrough and use the terminals of another railroad. 3. These Arranged Freight Schedules were altered whenever management saw fit. Thus, it's common to see a train moved from one yard to another in the same town (e.g Pitcairn to Conway). It's also pretty common to see a train extended - Conway one version, Enola the next. 4. Despite the churn, there were some AFS trains that ran from 50's Pennsy to 80's Conrail, changing symbols but still recognizably serving the same traffic lane. 5. This would make a great subject for an article (Keystone?). I wish I had time to pursue the additional research needed to make it comprehensive. Just keeping data sources straight would be a challenge. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:36:44 EST Subject: [PRR] PR (specifically) and Arranged Freight Schedules (comments) --part1_159.1b7c519d.2b74215c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/03 1:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com writes: > According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for > Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but the article > claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also states that the > trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to customers at Chicago and St. > Louis or to interchange with connecting lines. The PR trains replaced AC, > SW and LCL symbols. Of course, these were all westbounds and perishable > train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC era. CG-2 (59th Street to Greenville) was another persistent eastbound schedule, running from at least 1955 to 1974. > > PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the > TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM. It carries > piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight. > > PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago at > 5:50 AM the second morning. It carries piggyback shipments, autoparts and > merchandise. > > PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars received the same day from other > trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at 6:45 > AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting railroads. > > PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and general merchandise leaves Harsimus > Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from Baltimore and Harrisburg and > arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the second morning. > > PR-9 carrying piggyback and general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM > and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the second morning. > > PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with cars received form Eastern Cities and > delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the next day. > > The article made no mention of eastbounds that surfaced later on. > Thanks, Jim - that's a helpful addition to my info-at-hand. 1. Westbound PRIORITY seems a good explanation of the use of PR-xx in 1966. I don't see any eastbound PR's until after the merger. 2. However, in the Oct ETT, there were already at least two more PR's shown: a. PR-15 from Pitcairn to Peoria, and b. PR-17 from Pitcairn to Blue Island (Indiana Harbor Belt, Chicago) 3. In addition, the PR's schedules themselves can be changeable. Somewhere I've picked up info at slight variance with the Pennsy article you cite: a. PR-9 comes from Greenville NJ and runs to the Alton & Southern (probably MoPac connections) b. PR-11 comes from Pitcairn and runs to ? Yard on the TRRA in East St. Louis. A couple of thoughts: 1. The object of Arranged Freight Schedules was to organize a network of trains that expedited traffic by collecting like destinations early and then kept them out of as many yards as possible -- a car generally lost about a day for every hump yard it entered - and more at a "gateway" like Chicago or St. Louis. The systems AFS was created and maintained by a headquarters activity called something like "Operations Planning" (anybody know the correct title in PRR days?). 2. A hot AFS train was aimed at long distance, highly competitive and/or perishable traffic, where speed and reliability counted. So instead of dumping cars at the end of a run into a 59th Street (Chicago) or a Rose Lake (East St. Louis), they might tend to act like a runthrough and use the terminals of another railroad. 3. These Arranged Freight Schedules were altered whenever management saw fit. Thus, it's common to see a train moved from one yard to another in the same town (e.g Pitcairn to Conway). It's also pretty common to see a train extended - Conway one version, Enola the next. 4. Despite the churn, there were some AFS trains that ran from 50's Pennsy to 80's Conrail, changing symbols but still recognizably serving the same traffic lane. 5. This would make a great subject for an article (Keystone?). I wish I had time to pursue the additional research needed to make it comprehensive. Just keeping data sources straight would be a challenge. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_159.1b7c519d.2b74215c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/5/03 1:= 02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com writes:


According to the September 15,=20= 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for Preference.  This appears to=20= have been a marketing tool but the article claims 24 to 48 hour faster deliv= ery.  The article also states that the trains were blocked at Conway fo= r delivery to customers at Chicago and St. Louis or to interchange with conn= ecting lines.  The PR trains replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols.  Of=20= course, these were all westbounds and perishable train SW-6 continued to ope= rate into the PC era.


CG-2 (59th Street to Greenvi= lle) was another persistent eastbound schedule, running from at least 1955 t= o 1974.


PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the TrucTra= in terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM.  It carries piggyb= ack shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight.

PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at=20= 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago at 5:50 AM the second morning.&= nbsp; It carries piggyback shipments, autoparts and merchandise.

PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 P= M with cars received the same day from other trains from Eastern cities and=20= arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at 6:45 AM the next morning to meet sche= dules of connecting railroads.

PR-7 carrying piggyback ship= ments and general merchandise leaves Harsimus Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick=20= up cars from Baltimore and Harrisburg and arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago=20= at 8:30 AM the second morning.

PR-9 carrying piggyback and=20= general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM and arrives at East St. Louis a= t 11:45 AM the second morning.

PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00=20= PM with cars received form Eastern Cities and delivers them at East St. Loui= s at 4:15 PM the next day.
The article made no mention=20= of eastbounds that surfaced later on.


Thanks, Jim - that's a helpful addition to my info-at-hand.

1. Westbound PRIORITY seems a good explanation of the use of PR-xx in 1966.&= nbsp; I don't see any eastbound PR's until after the merger.
2. However, in the Oct ETT, there were already at least two more PR's shown:=
a. PR-15 from Pitcairn to Peoria, and
b. PR-17 from Pitcairn to Blue Island (Indiana Harbor Belt, Chicago)
3. In addition, the PR's schedules themselves can be changeable.  Somew= here I've picked up info at slight variance with the Pennsy article you cite= :
a. PR-9 comes from Greenville NJ and runs to the Alton & Southern (proba= bly MoPac connections)
b. PR-11 comes from Pitcairn and runs to ? Yard on the TRRA in East St. Loui= s.

A couple of thoughts:
1. The object of Arranged Freight Schedules was to organize a network of tra= ins that expedited traffic by collecting like destinations early and then ke= pt them out of as many yards as possible -- a car generally lost about a day= for every hump yard it entered - and more at a "gateway" like Chicago or St= . Louis.  The systems AFS was created and maintained by a headquarters=20= activity called something like "Operations Planning" (anybody know the corre= ct title in PRR days?).
2. A hot AFS train was aimed at long distance, highly competitive and/or per= ishable traffic, where speed and reliability counted.  So instead of du= mping cars at the end of a run into a 59th Street (Chicago) or a Rose Lake (= East St. Louis), they might tend to act like a runthrough and use the termin= als of another railroad.
3.  These Arranged Freight Schedules were altered whenever management s= aw fit.  Thus, it's common to see a train moved from one yard to anothe= r in the same town (e.g Pitcairn to Conway).  It's also pretty common t= o see a train extended - Conway one version, Enola the next.
4. Despite the churn, there were some AFS trains that ran from 50's Pennsy t= o 80's Conrail, changing symbols but still recognizably serving the same tra= ffic lane.
5. This would make a great subject for an article (Keystone?).  I wish=20= I had time to pursue the additional research needed to make it comprehensive= .  Just keeping data sources straight would be a challenge.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_159.1b7c519d.2b74215c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Tasker Sign Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:51:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2CDF7.A6B9B600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe my question has been answered. I have been told the sign came = from a collection in Wilmington, DE. I think I will go with the Block = Station theory. Thank you all very very much. Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2CDF7.A6B9B600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe my question has been answered. I have been told the sign = came=20 from a collection in Wilmington, DE. I think I will go with the Block = Station=20 theory.
 
Thank you all very very much.
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2CDF7.A6B9B600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] question Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:07:07 -0500 Or for you cheapskates out there, Derrick the 9/54 Delmarva ETT at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/delmarva_div_ett_9_1954.pdf He also has a MD one from 1935 at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/maryland_div_ett_1935.pdf which on page 6 also lists TASKER but has the distance from west yard (5.1 miles) instead of Wilmington. Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:16 PM > To: Bruce Smith; PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] question > > > Well, I just happen to carry a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad > in 1954", > a cd-rom published by, uh, myself, in my planner. Found the answer rather > quickly... (shameless plug!!!) > > In the Delmarva Division employee timetable number 6, published September > 26, 1954, on page 4, TASKER is listed as a Block Station on the > Main Line at > milepost 6.5 (distance from Wilmington), but notes that it is on the > Maryland Division. > > The Maryland Division employee timetable number 7, of the same date, shows > TASKER on page 11 as a Block Station on the Delaware Branch and quotes the > same milepost. > > On 2/6/03 3:02 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > > >> I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on > >> the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a > Station or > >> Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? > >> leeprrswitchkey@msn.com > Lee Burbage > >> BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader > > > > Now, I'm not sure if the sign is related, to this but those of > you who have > > ever lived/worked in Philly should find "Tasker" > familiar...Tasker Homes is > > located right of I76 in South Philly. Tasker Street was crossed by the > > Delaware Extension, within the limits of Penrose Interlocking. > You can see > > this on Mark Bej's site at > > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/penrose.gif > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:47:31 -0500 The ore jennies were created because the H-21 fleet was so rag tag that the numerous cracks had been stuffed with rags and the ore pellets found their way around the rags! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:56 PM To: PRR-Talk; Bobspf@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c´td) There isn't much question that pellets are going to weigh more for the same volume than ore. Pellets are quite heavy and feel like you are holding a ball bearing of the same size. I wonder if the cars were developed because the trucks could withstand greater loading than the car was capable of carrying? I am purely guessing because the iron ores were played out before I got into the steel industry and have absolutely zero experience in that area. The G39's appear to be a pretty standard size for ore cars without doing some volumetric research. > In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:16 AM Central Standard Time, > ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't > lead to > the > book definition. >> > > Norm, I have to ask both you and Burkhard to clarify his statement > that the > pellets are heavier than raw ore. The article I read about the G39 high side > said that it was developed to fill to load versus the low side G38 which did > not with the advent of the pellets. Is there more air in the pellet load due > to the configuration? > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:00:47 -0500 OK sportsfans try this one on. During the 1966-68 period when I was at Renovo we had a movement of wooden CN box cars that came through ever day or two that made a turn to York, Pa. Have no idea who the consignee was but those old wooden box cars were quite an anachronisim in the 60s. Then one day, in the snow, a bunch of them derailed all over the place about half way between Renovo and Lock Haven, as usual on the opposite side of the river from the highway and a 10 mile drive by rr access road. There, sure enough was a whole bunch of these CN box cars all split open and loaded with ore that was about the constituancy of face powder. There was a front end loader scoop over each truck. The stuff was HEAVVVVVVY!. Turns out that the stuff was highly corrosive and they used wooden box cars to keep the rust down and then throw the car away when it finally disintigrated. So in addition to taking two hooks we hired a fleet of D-9 cats to plow the ore into the ground and tow the box cars off the right of way. So if you happen by MP 211 on a Sunday afternoon drive, help yourself to some ore and load up your box cars. Just make sure your models are made of WOOD! wdv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:06:42 -0500 Should have said "consistancy" in previous post. Also I forgot to mention that there is a picture of this wreck in my book PRR Hudson to Horseshoe, in case you be interested. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:01 PM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo OK sportsfans try this one on. During the 1966-68 period when I was at Renovo we had a movement of wooden CN box cars that came through ever day or two that made a turn to York, Pa. Have no idea who the consignee was but those old wooden box cars were quite an anachronisim in the 60s. Then one day, in the snow, a bunch of them derailed all over the place about half way between Renovo and Lock Haven, as usual on the opposite side of the river from the highway and a 10 mile drive by rr access road. There, sure enough was a whole bunch of these CN box cars all split open and loaded with ore that was about the constituancy of face powder. There was a front end loader scoop over each truck. The stuff was HEAVVVVVVY!. Turns out that the stuff was highly corrosive and they used wooden box cars to keep the rust down and then throw the car away when it finally disintigrated. So in addition to taking two hooks we hired a fleet of D-9 cats to plow the ore into the ground and tow the box cars off the right of way. So if you happen by MP 211 on a Sunday afternoon drive, help yourself to some ore and load up your box cars. Just make sure your models are made of WOOD! wdv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] PR (specifically) and Arranged Freight Schedules Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:07:15 +0000 Rick and Jim wrote: > > > According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR >stands >for Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but >the >article claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also >states >that the trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to >customers at >Chicago and St. Louis or to interchange with connecting >lines. The PR >trains replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols. Just as an aside to this thread about the PR symbols, I recall talking to an operator at Alliance who told me a story about how he was working Leetonia one night and had a routing conflict between PR-5 and a passenger train due to another westbound in emergacny on # 2 track around Sebring. It seems the word from above was NO delays to PR trains. He suggested to the dispatcher that they reserve PR-5 on #1 track to CP and do it with enough time to not delay the passenger train. The dispatcher went along with him, put out the orders and off went PR-5 wrong main. Apparently one of PR-5's engines decided to act up on the climb up Garfield Hill. The train didn't stall, but it dragged along enough to delay the eastbound passenger train. At the end of his shift, the op got two phone calls/chewing outs. The first was from the chief dispatcher, reaming him for delaying the passenger train. The second call was from the division super, getting all over him for delaying a PR train. Steve Hipes, Columbus, Ohio, who still misses visiting towers and listening to operators tell stories. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:32:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain / Tichy From: "Jerry @ PRR" Public Service Announcement... In February, InterMountain will be delivering built-up Tichy's "USRA Single-Sheathed Boxcar" in Pennsylvania livery. Suggested retail is $32.95 each. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:14:59 -0900 Listers, I've seen pictures of GG1s on the upper level of 30th Street Station. Did they ever run into Suburban Station, or before that Broad Street Station? I dont think there is or was any where to do a run-around to change sides, so maybe not. They could pull in engine first, unload, then deadhead out through 30th Street, and maybe put the engine on the front, and back into Suburban, I suppose. During the Broad Street Station "Chinese Wall" days, I think there was a turntable to turn steam, and likely a runaround there as well, so it would have been possible then. thanks in advance.. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:21:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola In a message dated 2/6/03 12:34:22 PM Central Standard Time, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: << I think he worked on the brake system to make it closer to a G30, though. The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco? >> That is the major need. I have both a Tichy and Sunshine kit to build and paint and did some dimensions from the end photo in the Keystone to approximate that brake in styrene (none commercially available), using the three foot rule. By the way, the Sunshine resin kit is great, but the Tichy one-piece body is awesome---one of the best models I have ever seen, though I didn't mike it for dimensions. I also have an Equipco brake booklet I picked up for about a buck at a Railroadiana meet and if I can find it I will scan it and post it. Don't worry. If I get around to fabricating one, it will immediately be available from Details West or someone. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:26:58 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Sodus Point in MR? From: "Jerry @ PRR" On page 121 of the March issue of Model Railroader they advertise what will be in the next issue. It includes "Prototype Drawings: Lake Ontario coal dock". Could it be the PRR's Sodus Point dock? Will be interesting to see. A few years back I acquired via eBay a valuation map of the Sodus Bay area, including the dock. It also includes the locations of navigational buoys and depth soundings in the bay. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:39:04 -0500 Sam Vastano asked: Wanted to know how accurate these models [Tichy War Emergency Gon] are? Elden Gatewood replied: The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco? Therefore, there must be a revised mounting arrangement and all. Bob Zoeller added: That is the major need. I have both a Tichy and Sunshine kit to build and paint and did some dimensions from the end photo in the Keystone to approximate that brake in styrene (none commercially available), using the three foot rule. <> Don't worry. If I get around to fabricating one, it will immediately be available from Details West or someone. Sam, the kit doesn't exactly match Class G30 straight out of the box, but it doesn't take much work at all to get a great model. Richard Hendrickson details the modifications that he made to the Tichy kit to match a Class G30 gon in the May 2002 Rail Model Journal. He modeled the Klasing hand brake from styrene and wire, and replaced the kit trucks with Proto 2000 National Type B trucks. He also includes a photo of completed brake rigging on the model to augment the kit's instructions. Prototype photos of PRR 362548 and PRR 362853 (with a good view of the hand brake) are included. Ted Culotta also authored an excellent article in the August 2001 Railroad Model Craftsman including photos of PRR 343432, PRR 363797 (with a neat cable reel load), and builders photos of PRR 362548, including a nice B end photo. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:33:34 -0500 From: davep Subject: OT Wista Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but > not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, > Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of > restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen > down years ago) The towers were TAKEN down, as they were too heavy and starting to crack... > check out links from the New Haven Historical society > site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, > from what I've read. ...and they still have not got anyone inside the station using the space... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:19:14 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B4td=29?= First, a few notes after looking at the library. The September 1982 Keystone had the article on the jennies. In answer to another question, 110 of the last G39As had the foam insulation added in 1964 and were tested by putting 55 with 45 noninsulated in unit trains in 1965 for comparison. Worked OK, but not worth the giveup in capacity and never repeated, except for a handful of other experimentals. The source for the comment about the G39 and pelletizing is the PRR color guide I; take that for what it is worth. Quote, re the G39: "The sides were extended (beyond those of the G38) because pelletized ore which is 125 lbs. per cubic foot, did not produce a capacity load without the extension" Not to bore the rest of the list with how many angels can dance on the head of a(n) (iron) pin, but besides a certain intellectual curiosity about things, my question is a modeler one arising from deciding what load to put when in a G39 and how high to pile it. That is, pellets or raw ore, gray-maroon or iron oxide color, heaping or smaller loads ala the H21 loads? If G39s and G38s were in the same train, was one heaped and another a smaller load, depending on pellets or raw ore? I normally focus on my 1950+/- era, but I venture outside my time era at the club to run certain trains (i.e., TT1, the South Wind with a dome behind ACL E6s, and now ore jennies, etc). I am less familiar with some of the details of those later trains. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:30:56 -0800 GG-1 used the old Broad Street Station all the time. I don't know the logistics of turning trains, but the chinese wall had 8 or 9 tracks on it, so getting the engine off a train was a relatively easy manouver. If I recall, they found that the GG-1 couldn't handle the grade out of suburban station. I don't think a G in suburban station was ever a regular event. I did see one in suburban station once around 1980 but I was in such a hurry to get to where I was going I didn't notice what it was doing there. John -----Original Message----- From: Alex Charyna To: PRR-Talk Posting Date: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station >Listers, > >I've seen pictures of GG1s on the upper level of 30th Street Station. >Did they ever run into Suburban Station, or before that Broad Street >Station? > >I dont think there is or was any where to do a run-around to >change sides, so maybe not. >They could pull in engine first, unload, then deadhead out through >30th Street, and maybe put the engine on the front, and back into >Suburban, I suppose. > >During the Broad Street Station "Chinese Wall" days, I think there >was a turntable to turn steam, and likely a runaround there as well, >so it would have been possible then. > >thanks in advance.. >-alex > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 07:52:15 -0500 Thanks for all who responded... I would like to get a hold of the article. Anybody willing to scan it for me and e-mail???? Thanks again Sam Vastano >From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" >To: , >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola >Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:39:04 -0500 > >Sam Vastano asked: >Wanted to know how accurate these models [Tichy War Emergency Gon] are? > >Elden Gatewood replied: >The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump >brake, maybe an Equipco? Therefore, there must be a revised mounting >arrangement and all. > >Bob Zoeller added: >That is the major need. I have both a Tichy and Sunshine kit to build and >paint and did some dimensions from the end photo in the Keystone to >approximate that brake in styrene (none commercially available), using the >three foot rule. <> Don't worry. If I get around to fabricating >one, >it will immediately be available from Details West or someone. > > >Sam, the kit doesn't exactly match Class G30 straight out of the box, but >it >doesn't take much work at all to get a great model. Richard Hendrickson >details the modifications that he made to the Tichy kit to match a Class >G30 >gon in the May 2002 Rail Model Journal. He modeled the Klasing hand brake >from styrene and wire, and replaced the kit trucks with Proto 2000 National >Type B trucks. He also includes a photo of completed brake rigging on the >model to augment the kit's instructions. Prototype photos of PRR 362548 >and >PRR 362853 (with a good view of the hand brake) are included. > >Ted Culotta also authored an excellent article in the August 2001 Railroad >Model Craftsman including photos of PRR 343432, PRR 363797 (with a neat >cable reel load), and builders photos of PRR 362548, including a nice B end >photo. > > >Ben Hom > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Thank _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:32:42 -0500 Ah so. But I have another bit of trivia to add to this. After the Lehigh and New England went bellyup in 1961, a bunch of their Alco RS-2s were sold and repainted a two tone blue, lettered Raymond Construction Co. and shipped to Liberia to be used in the construction of the railroad. I have pix of them in Pen Argyl awaiting shipment. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Burkhard Sanner Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:00 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c´td) Bill Volkmer scribit: > I seem to remember the pellets (looked like rabbit poop) coming from > either Liberia or Libya when the ore jennies first came out. That would be Liberia, as there is now iron ore Libya (just crude oil...). Some tangent: To ship the ore from Liberia, a railraod was built from the inland mines to the port, and some unique German/American engines used: The old and famous loco builders Henschel in Kassel (now part of Thyssen and, if I remember correctly, Bombardier) got the contract to built these engines under EMD- license, with genuine GM engines. They look a bit like SD40s, and were the heaviest single engines ever built within Germany. Quite some task to move them from the factory to the shipping port! Henschel started into the loco business with another American partnership, building its first engine called "Drache" (Dragon) in 1848 with a license from Norris (bringing me back into PRR-country!). Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:07:54 -0600 As a college student, I worked in a zinc smelter along south of Conway Yard on the opposite side of the Ohio River. While the smelter was not served directly be the PRR, it was served by the P&LE. The zinc ore for the plant came in standard steel box cars. So, at least in the 1960s, the shipment of ore in box cars was not all that unusual. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:07 PM To: 'Bill Volkmer'; zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Should have said "consistancy" in previous post. Also I forgot to mention that there is a picture of this wreck in my book PRR Hudson to Horseshoe, in case you be interested. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:01 PM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo OK sportsfans try this one on. During the 1966-68 period when I was at Renovo we had a movement of wooden CN box cars that came through ever day or two that made a turn to York, Pa. Have no idea who the consignee was but those old wooden box cars were quite an anachronisim in the 60s. Then one day, in the snow, a bunch of them derailed all over the place about half way between Renovo and Lock Haven, as usual on the opposite side of the river from the highway and a 10 mile drive by rr access road. There, sure enough was a whole bunch of these CN box cars all split open and loaded with ore that was about the constituancy of face powder. There was a front end loader scoop over each truck. The stuff was HEAVVVVVVY!. Turns out that the stuff was highly corrosive and they used wooden box cars to keep the rust down and then throw the car away when it finally disintigrated. So in addition to taking two hooks we hired a fleet of D-9 cats to plow the ore into the ground and tow the box cars off the right of way. So if you happen by MP 211 on a Sunday afternoon drive, help yourself to some ore and load up your box cars. Just make sure your models are made of WOOD! wdv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:56:53 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Folks, I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' around Norris Street would be of great interest. I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, but a place that has some special affection for me. Thanks for your time, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:24:18 -0500 I seem to remember that area as being called Shakomaxin Street Yard. Had one of the ubiquitous Baldwin switchers there plus a 44 tonner. Better order up a 44 tonner for the layout. The 44 tonners had what we called "bullnose couplers" because they had no draft gear and could swivel when dragging box cars around tight curves. That's why they had the 44 tonners down there. They ran light once a month over the main line past North Phillie to the 46th St. Enginehouse for MI which gave comic relief to the many resident train watchers on the North Philadelphia station platform watching endless parades of GG-1s and coaches. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of BPX29@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:57 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Folks, I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' around Norris Street would be of great interest. I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, but a place that has some special affection for me. Thanks for your time, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:47:38 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CED1.0129F990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob, Jack, and company; Thanks for the great feedback on this. I am also wrestling with the needs for doing a good G30, and also G30a (from the F&C kit), and didn't know about either the articles or type of brake. I was thinking about using a spare Equipco, but as Jack points out, the majority seemed to have Klasing units. I would like to see the photos before I get going on this. It is nice to hear about how good this Tichy kit is. I have an older WE gon kit that is not nearly good enough to make a good car from. I will now retire that one. Thanks guys! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:21 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CED1.0129F990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola

Bob, Jack, and company;  Thanks for the great = feedback on this.  I am also wrestling with the needs for doing a = good G30, and also G30a (from the F&C kit), and didn't know about = either the articles or type of brake.  I was thinking about using = a spare Equipco, but as Jack points out, the majority seemed to have = Klasing units.  I would like to see the photos before I get going = on this.  It is nice to hear about how good this Tichy kit = is.  I have an older WE gon kit that is not nearly good enough to = make a good car from.  I will now retire that one.  Thanks = guys!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:21 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CED1.0129F990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 14:25:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's From: Jerry Britton The Pennsy had 10 Fairbanks Morse H16-44's which they classed F16m. They were numbered 8807-8816 and purchased in 1952. Atlas just announced these in N scale (#8807, #8809) for delivery in June. ( http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/n1516441.asp ) Anyone know what portion(s) of the system these roamed? I have a photocopy of a 1954 MP225 I'll have to dig out tonight. But what about other eras? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] dormitory-chair cars --0-1977212680-1044646123=:70379 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations? Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing? I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1977212680-1044646123=:70379 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations?  Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing?  I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami.  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1977212680-1044646123=:70379-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:48:14 -0500 They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and on the Cresson coal branches. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:25 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's The Pennsy had 10 Fairbanks Morse H16-44's which they classed F16m. They were numbered 8807-8816 and purchased in 1952. Atlas just announced these in N scale (#8807, #8809) for delivery in June. ( http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/n1516441.asp ) Anyone know what portion(s) of the system these roamed? I have a photocopy of a 1954 MP225 I'll have to dig out tonight. But what about other eras? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 14:36:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/03 2:48 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and on > the Cresson coal branches. Well isn't that convenient...with me modeling the Cresson Secondary! > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:25 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's > > > The Pennsy had 10 Fairbanks Morse H16-44's which they classed F16m. They > were numbered 8807-8816 and purchased in 1952. > > Atlas just announced these in N scale (#8807, #8809) for delivery in > June. ( http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/n1516441.asp ) > > Anyone know what portion(s) of the system these roamed? > > I have a photocopy of a 1954 MP225 I'll have to dig out tonight. But > what about other eras? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:44:55 -0000 Barry, If you are using a new Spectrum 44tonner, it will need the botom of the trucks filing down my example grounds on Peco code 75 points.... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal > Folks, > I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. > Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' around Norris Street would be of great interest. > I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, but a place that has some special affection for me. > Thanks for your time, and regards, > Barry Peltier > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:00:24 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ZJLDc7CvFF5h7dOEBI+IWA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Tasker was a Block Station and Interlocking located at the junction of the Delmarva Branch, MP 6.3 (distance from Wilmington), and the New Castle Secondary Track, MP 5.4 (Distance from Bridge 3). It was located in the Town of New Castle, DE. It was closed sometime in 1968, subsequent to removal from service of the portion of the Delmarva between West Yard and Farnhurst, the redesignation of the portion from Tasker to Porter as part of the New Castle Secondary and "relocation" of the Delmarva Branch to the Newark and Delaware City Secondary between Davis and Porter. ----- Original Message ----- From: edmund burbage To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:13 PM Subject: [PRR] question I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader --Boundary_(ID_ZJLDc7CvFF5h7dOEBI+IWA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Tasker was a Block Station and Interlocking located at the junction of the Delmarva Branch, MP 6.3 (distance from Wilmington), and the New Castle Secondary Track, MP 5.4 (Distance from Bridge 3). It was located in the Town of New Castle, DE. It was closed sometime in 1968, subsequent to removal from service of the portion of the Delmarva between West Yard and Farnhurst, the redesignation of the portion from Tasker to Porter as part of the New Castle Secondary and "relocation" of the Delmarva Branch to the Newark and Delaware City Secondary between Davis and Porter. 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: [PRR] question

I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign.
 
Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System?
 
 
 
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader
--Boundary_(ID_ZJLDc7CvFF5h7dOEBI+IWA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] dormitory-chair cars What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations? Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing? I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:34:45 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station Short Answer -Yes GG1s did operate into/out of both Broad Street Station, and Suburban Station during the PRR and PC era. Most recently, back in the 1970s with trains consisting of old MU equipment especially during SEPTA Strikes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:14 PM Subject: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station > Listers, > > I've seen pictures of GG1s on the upper level of 30th Street Station. > Did they ever run into Suburban Station, or before that Broad Street > Station? > > I dont think there is or was any where to do a run-around to > change sides, so maybe not. > They could pull in engine first, unload, then deadhead out through > 30th Street, and maybe put the engine on the front, and back into > Suburban, I suppose. > > During the Broad Street Station "Chinese Wall" days, I think there > was a turntable to turn steam, and likely a runaround there as well, > so it would have been possible then. > > thanks in advance.. > -alex > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:36:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: OT Wista Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the --0-632644603-1044650193=:96428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for correction on cause of towers removal. Understand that they are having problems getting tenants for station, but it is still a beautiful restoration job. davep wrote:> Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but > not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, > Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of > restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen > down years ago) The towers were TAKEN down, as they were too heavy and starting to crack... > check out links from the New Haven Historical society > site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, > from what I've read. ...and they still have not got anyone inside the station using the space... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-632644603-1044650193=:96428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks for correction on cause of towers removal.   Understand that they are having problems getting tenants for station, but it is still a beautiful restoration job.  

 davep <davep@quik.com> wrote:

> Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but
> not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester,
> Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of
> restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen
> down years ago)

The towers were TAKEN down, as they were too
heavy and starting to crack...

> check out links from the New Haven Historical society
> site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million,
> from what I've read.

...and they still have not got anyone inside the
station using the space...
--
best
dwp

...the net of a million lies...
Vernor Vinge
There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things.
-me


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fo Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-632644603-1044650193=:96428-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:51:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/03 2:48 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and on > the Cresson coal branches. > On the east slope, ABA sets of F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp. Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling, requiring perhaps only two units? As for working the coal branches, would this be a scenario where the H16-44's would marshall smaller trains up the Irvona Branch and the Cresson Secondary and its connections, to the small yard on the Cresson end of the Cresson Secondary, then larger units would pull a combined larger train onto the mains? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 16:30:30 -0500 The east slope helpers were commonly three unit DL-702s 5400 HP. The west slope was anything they could find. Two unit FS-16s, FS-24ms, 3 unit sharks, 3 unit EH-15s, you name it. On the weekends you often would find a pair of FS-16ms laid up at the Cresson Enginehouse. I think they worked Irvona etc. during the week. I have seen just about everything take coal trains down into Altoona from Cresson, 3 unit Pas, 3 unit FF-20s, F-7s, 3 unit FS-20ms, two unit Baldwin BS-7ms. When I get the time I will scan shots of all that stuff. WDV (froze my a** off shooting diesels at Cresson in the winter time) -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:52 PM To: Bill Volkmer; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's On 2/7/03 2:48 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and > on the Cresson coal branches. > On the east slope, ABA sets of F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp. Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling, requiring perhaps only two units? As for working the coal branches, would this be a scenario where the H16-44's would marshall smaller trains up the Irvona Branch and the Cresson Secondary and its connections, to the small yard on the Cresson end of the Cresson Secondary, then larger units would pull a combined larger train onto the mains? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:44:05 -0500 Has there been any announcement on what will the price be for the new Stewart PRR G39s. Garry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:26:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Week Old news: Atlas & InterMountain "O" Scale Am I the only one to notice during the past week? Alas "O" has announced acquisition of Intermountain's "O" scale line - and a new "body" of their own - Postwar rebuild of a USRA car - straight lower sill, c a new steel body. Is the Pennsy version anywhere close to an X-26 or X-29? Think they may have stenciled it X-26c "AtlasO.com" or, am I the only "O" scaler left on the list? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:50:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] dormitory-chair cars --part1_104.26cb6cc1.2b75a058_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those seats in combination cars were sold to passengers. It was one way of making a car that was generally considered 'non-revenue' earn a little anyway, and it added some capacity to a train that might have a modest consist of equipment. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_104.26cb6cc1.2b75a058_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those seats in combination cars were sold to passenger= s.  It was one way of making a car that was generally considered 'non-r= evenue' earn a little anyway, and it added some capacity to a train that mig= ht have a modest consist of equipment.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_104.26cb6cc1.2b75a058_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 17:54:20 -0600 From: "Colm Chomicky" Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I would agree with Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist on cementing your load. Sounds like your ore is red, so most likely it is composed of the mineral hematite, which is not strongly magnetic when compared to a common iron or ceramic magnets that may exist elsewhere in your equipment or layout. Even if your ore has stronger magnetic material such as the mineral "magnetite" you may be alright if you do test your load with a old compass. For example, take an old compass and see if the needle deflects with your ore load. Test your ore before loading because the empty car itself may have a stronger field than the ore. I suspect if your ore is all small pieces and packed randomly in your load , the magnetic field would be quite small plus different orientations cancel out the overall weak fields from each piece. Also. if the load is cemented together, that would be extra insurance that vibrating your load would keep the grains from reorienting parallel to common magnetic field (plus spills to clean up). You might want to experiment, take your compass and run it by other magnetic sources in your layout. If you have switches with solenoids etc, you may have see much stronger measurable effects compared to the ore load. By the way, hematite is also used as a pigment. Perhaps it is an ingredient to the famed Tuscan Red? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: "PennsyNut" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:20:27 -0600 Hi All! Agreed, but: IMHO if the ore is glued in a "removable" manner for placement in the ore car, then the "magnetism" will not be a problem. Plus, the added weight is well needed. i.e., removable manner means like the "loads" now available, that can be inserted and removed at will! Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:21:30 -0600 Watch out! This ore is magnetic, and will affect uncouplers, magnets in model locomotives, and possibly other electrical devices. I'm not sure any magnetic material should be used on model railroads. -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:23 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I scooped up two coffee cans full of the red ore that is still all over the place at the (now closed) ore docks in South Philly. I'm thinking of running it through some screens to get the dirt out and using it as a load in the ore cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:14:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's --part1_7b.960f0f4.2b75a5ff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They were all assigned to the Pittsburgh Division. Most operated on the branches (including the Cresson and South Fork) handling coal drags. A number were assigned to Conemaugh and Cresson for this specific purpose. If I recall correctly nearly all of them were assigned to Conemaugh for maintenance. Rich Orr --part1_7b.960f0f4.2b75a5ff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They were all assigned to the Pittsburgh Division.&nbs= p; Most operated on the branches (including the Cresson and South Fork) hand= ling coal drags.  A number were assigned to Conemaugh and Cresson for t= his specific purpose.  If I recall correctly nearly all of them were as= signed to Conemaugh for maintenance.

Rich Orr --part1_7b.960f0f4.2b75a5ff_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:21:38 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Power smoke collectors? In a message dated 2/7/03 12:06:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > List, > > I recently purchased a large photo collection from the PRR Chicago > Publicity > Department files. In this collection, there are several photos taken at > the > Chicago 55th St. enginehouse. Along the engine ready tracks are several > devices that look like water spouts, but I have been told these are smoke > collectors. They look like they swing over the stack on an engine. > However, in the photos, none are in use. The engine beside them is smoking > away. > > I also have Sanborn maps of the terminal, and there is a building that is > labeled as a fan and motor room, and another labeled smoke washer. > > Is anybody familiar with this system, or how these devices worked? Did the > blowers provide suction to draw smoke from the engines? > > > Thanks, > > Andy Cich > Not familiar, but Trostel's Bradford the Railroad Town shows a plan of Bradford OH's 1919 roundhouse with a "blower room" out back. And you can just see it in an aerial view... This, plus a mention I recently read about smoke hoods and smoke abatement at N&W's Clare Yard (Mariemont OH, suburban Cincinnati), makes me wonder if vacuum-assisted smokejacks weren't more common than one might have thought. Or could this have been a Lines West thing? BTW, the Bradford facility adjoined only a small community, mostly inhabited by PRR employees, so I don't think the motivation there was "big city smoke ordinances". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:17:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's --part1_14a.1b76c987.2b75a67e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/07/2003 4:00:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On the east slope, ABA sets of F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp. > Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling, > requiring perhaps only two units? > Jerry, from everything I have read, when used as helpers on the west slope they an H16-44 was teamed with an H20-44 (3500 hp). Rich Orr --part1_14a.1b76c987.2b75a67e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/07/2003 4:00:31 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


On the east slope, ABA sets of=20= F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp.
Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling,
requiring perhaps only two units?


Jerry, from everything I have read, when used as helpers on the west slope t= hey an H16-44 was teamed with an H20-44 (3500 hp).

Rich Orr --part1_14a.1b76c987.2b75a67e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:21:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Power smoke collectors? --part1_60.2d0dcd45.2b75a792_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/03 12:06:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > List, > > I recently purchased a large photo collection from the PRR Chicago > Publicity > Department files. In this collection, there are several photos taken at > the > Chicago 55th St. enginehouse. Along the engine ready tracks are several > devices that look like water spouts, but I have been told these are smoke > collectors. They look like they swing over the stack on an engine. > However, in the photos, none are in use. The engine beside them is smoking > away. > > I also have Sanborn maps of the terminal, and there is a building that is > labeled as a fan and motor room, and another labeled smoke washer. > > Is anybody familiar with this system, or how these devices worked? Did the > blowers provide suction to draw smoke from the engines? > > > Thanks, > > Andy Cich > Not familiar, but Trostel's Bradford the Railroad Town shows a plan of Bradford OH's 1919 roundhouse with a "blower room" out back. And you can just see it in an aerial view... This, plus a mention I recently read about smoke hoods and smoke abatement at N&W's Clare Yard (Mariemont OH, suburban Cincinnati), makes me wonder if vacuum-assisted smokejacks weren't more common than one might have thought. Or could this have been a Lines West thing? BTW, the Bradford facility adjoined only a small community, mostly inhabited by PRR employees, so I don't think the motivation there was "big city smoke ordinances". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_60.2d0dcd45.2b75a792_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/7/03 12:06:46 PM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


List,

I recently purchased a large photo collection from the PRR Chicago Publicity=
Department files.  In this collection, there are several photos taken a= t the
Chicago 55th St. enginehouse.  Along the engine ready tracks are severa= l
devices that look like water spouts, but I have been told these are smoke collectors.  They look like they swing over the stack on an engine.
However, in the photos, none are in use.  The engine beside them is smo= king
away.

I also have Sanborn maps of the terminal, and there is a building that is labeled as a fan and motor room, and another labeled smoke washer.

Is anybody familiar with this system, or how these devices worked?  Did= the
blowers provide suction to draw smoke from the engines?


Thanks,

Andy Cich


Not familiar, but Trostel's Bradford the Railroad Town shows a plan of Bradf= ord OH's 1919 roundhouse with a "blower room" out back.  And you can ju= st see it in an aerial view...

This, plus a mention I recently read about smoke hoods and smoke abatement a= t N&W's Clare Yard (Mariemont OH, suburban Cincinnati), makes me wonder=20= if vacuum-assisted smokejacks weren't more common than one might have though= t.  Or could this have been a Lines West thing?

BTW, the Bradford facility adjoined only a small community, mostly inhabited= by PRR employees, so I don't think the motivation there was "big city smoke= ordinances".


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_60.2d0dcd45.2b75a792_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:52:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s From: "Jerry @ PRR" On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 05:44 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > Has there been any announcement on what will the price be for the new > Stewart PRR G39s. > > No. I contacted Stewart to check, and they haven't decided yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:35:28 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: jeffrey d thomas This has been a very interesting topic. I thought I would mention that other types of ore were transported in the ore cars. During my college years I worked at a ferroalloys plant in Ohio. We received chrome ore and manganese ore in PRR/PC ore cars. This ore originated in South Africa and Rhodesia,(I think). It came in to one of the East Coast ports, was loaded on to PRR/PC ore cars, then delivered to the B&O, who then delivered it to the plant. At one time, there were 5 Ferroalloy plants in Ohio. Three were served directly by the PRR/PC. The PRR/PC also served one in West Virginia I believe. The Chrome ore was red and looked like red dirt with rocks in it. The Manganese ore was reddish black, and also looked about like dirt. These loads could easily be mistaken for "iron ore". This also opens up a lot of other routings that these cars could have been seen on. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "JOHN PLACHA" Subject: [PRR] ALLEGHENY DIVISION Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:05:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CEEC.A04E87A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to find the "copy" track chart of the Allegheny Division . = Need from MP 0 to Red Bank. Also need a good copy of the Red Bank Yard. = This is for our club the Allegheny Valley Model Railroad = Museum..........placha@alltel.net ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CEEC.A04E87A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am trying to find the "copy" track = chart of the=20 Allegheny Division . Need from MP 0 to Red Bank. Also need a good = copy of=20 the Red Bank Yard. This is for our club the Allegheny Valley Model = Railroad Museum..........placha@= alltel.net
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CEEC.A04E87A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:30:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Ore Train Routes Hello List, I dug out the Sept. 1962 edition of Trains magazine which contains the article by Bert Pennypacker,"Who the No. 2 Ore Hauler? Pennsy!" Here are the routes listed: Phila-Saxtonburg-383 miles Phila-Lackawanna-423 miles Phila-Bethlehem-104 miles Phila-Weirton-397 miles Baltimore-Lackawanna-420 miles Baltimore-Youngstown-435 miles Baltimore-Ecorse (Detroit)-677 miles Morrisville (Fairless Works)-Saxonburg-407 Cleveland-Weirton-122 miles Cleveland-Mingo Jct-117 miles Cleveland-East Steubenville-124 miles Cleveland-Johnstown-221 miles Ashtabula-Weirton-158 miles Ashtabula-Mingo Jct-153 miles Ashtabula-East Steubenville-160 miles Ashtabula-Johnstown-209 miles Ashtabula-Youngstown-61 miles Hope this helps........ Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:12:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] dormitory-chair cars In a message dated 2/7/03 1:36:24 PM Central Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations? Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing? I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami. >> Don't know about the South Wind in particular, but my impression was that not infrequently the "chair" part of these combines were "smokers", i.e., the smoking section of the train if a complete coach wasn't so assigned. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:14:40 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Roundhouse morphology In a message dated 2/8/03 2:54:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > It is my play on words ref a friend in Coulubus, Ohio (CMH), named Ron > Wideman, that counted each of the roundhouse window panes to determine if > that Columbus roundhouse is/was the same as the brutes in Canton & > Crestline. It looks just the same but the CMH version has less window panes > in each "facet" or segmented wall on the back of the roundhouse. I'd bet > this means the less windowed 'house is smaller in diameter. This means > those so called (by me I guess) "1919 PRR Roundhouses" came in TWO sizes of > the same construction. The rather dark copies I got in the mail match Ron > Wideman's description as do at least two other roundhouses stated as used > for passenger car maintenance.........something I had never heard about, > these small ones. > Earl > Earl, Ron, and listfellows: Would it help our efforts in analyzing roundhouses to invent some simple classification system? I propose something similar to the familiar Whyte system for steam locomotives. For example, I can tell from aerial photos in Bradford The Railroad Town that Bradford's roundhouse sidewall was five bays long; further, that there were two bays in the low "front" section (facing the turntable), and there were three bays in the tall "middle" section. Then instead of a low "back" section, Bradford has the dramatic two story back wall. So with 15 stalls, Bradford would be a 2-3-0 (15) roundhouse. By comparison, the Mingo Jct. roundhouse at the beginning of Pennsy Power III was built in two phases. The original construction is a 2-4-0 (16?) house. But the added, more modern (and longer) stalls are a 3-2-2 (9) design. I must confess that other pics I've looked at are less conclusive. For example, the picture in the Q2 book on page 24 at Crestline establishes the center section was 4 bays long, but leaves the length of front and back sections unconfirmed. The p 36 picture, labelled "Chicago", is probably 59th Street, and strongly implies another 4 bay center section, but is otherwise indefinite. The list of "only partials" goes on -- Columbus' Spruce Street (passenger roundhouse, 32 stalls) obviously has no back section, but more pix would be needed to confirm or deny that it's a 2-4-0 design. An aerial view of Columbus' St. Clair Avenue (41 stalls?) is hard to interpret, but seems to show a house with a "front" and a "back" slanting up to meet at a shallow peak, with no raised center section at all. Thus, St. Clair Ave. may be a ?-0-? (41) house. Guess this shows the hazards of trying to study lineside buildings using roster photos. Despite the slight odor of mental midgetry, I wonder if using such a classification might not help us make sense out of the copies, the older brothers, and the other variants in our study of roundhouses, Lines West and other. If you find better pictures, please let us know... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:14:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse morphology --part1_198.15509161.2b7678e0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/03 2:54:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > It is my play on words ref a friend in Coulubus, Ohio (CMH), named Ron > Wideman, that counted each of the roundhouse window panes to determine if > that Columbus roundhouse is/was the same as the brutes in Canton & > Crestline. It looks just the same but the CMH version has less window panes > in each "facet" or segmented wall on the back of the roundhouse. I'd bet > this means the less windowed 'house is smaller in diameter. This means > those so called (by me I guess) "1919 PRR Roundhouses" came in TWO sizes of > the same construction. The rather dark copies I got in the mail match Ron > Wideman's description as do at least two other roundhouses stated as used > for passenger car maintenance.........something I had never heard about, > these small ones. > Earl > Earl, Ron, and listfellows: Would it help our efforts in analyzing roundhouses to invent some simple classification system? I propose something similar to the familiar Whyte system for steam locomotives. For example, I can tell from aerial photos in Bradford The Railroad Town that Bradford's roundhouse sidewall was five bays long; further, that there were two bays in the low "front" section (facing the turntable), and there were three bays in the tall "middle" section. Then instead of a low "back" section, Bradford has the dramatic two story back wall. So with 15 stalls, Bradford would be a 2-3-0 (15) roundhouse. By comparison, the Mingo Jct. roundhouse at the beginning of Pennsy Power III was built in two phases. The original construction is a 2-4-0 (16?) house. But the added, more modern (and longer) stalls are a 3-2-2 (9) design. I must confess that other pics I've looked at are less conclusive. For example, the picture in the Q2 book on page 24 at Crestline establishes the center section was 4 bays long, but leaves the length of front and back sections unconfirmed. The p 36 picture, labelled "Chicago", is probably 59th Street, and strongly implies another 4 bay center section, but is otherwise indefinite. The list of "only partials" goes on -- Columbus' Spruce Street (passenger roundhouse, 32 stalls) obviously has no back section, but more pix would be needed to confirm or deny that it's a 2-4-0 design. An aerial view of Columbus' St. Clair Avenue (41 stalls?) is hard to interpret, but seems to show a house with a "front" and a "back" slanting up to meet at a shallow peak, with no raised center section at all. Thus, St. Clair Ave. may be a ?-0-? (41) house. Guess this shows the hazards of trying to study lineside buildings using roster photos. Despite the slight odor of mental midgetry, I wonder if using such a classification might not help us make sense out of the copies, the older brothers, and the other variants in our study of roundhouses, Lines West and other. If you find better pictures, please let us know... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_198.15509161.2b7678e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/8/03 2:54:17 AM Eastern Standard=20= Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes:


Rick;
 It is my play on words ref=20= a friend in Coulubus, Ohio (CMH), named Ron Wideman,  that counted each= of the roundhouse window panes to determine if that Columbus roundhouse is/= was the same as the brutes in Canton & Crestline. It looks just the same= but the CMH version has less window panes in each "facet" or segmented wall= on the back of the roundhouse.  I'd bet this means the less windowed '= house is smaller in diameter. This means those so called (by me I guess) "19= 19 PRR Roundhouses" came in TWO sizes of the same construction. The rather d= ark copies I got in the mail match Ron Wideman's description as do at least=20= two other roundhouses stated as used for passenger car maintenance.........s= omething I had never heard about, these small ones.
Earl


Earl, Ron, and listfellows:

Would it help our efforts in analyzing roundhouses to invent some simple cla= ssification system?  I propose something similar to the familiar Whyte=20= system for steam locomotives.

For example, I can tell from aerial photos in Bradford The Railroad Town&= nbsp; that Bradford's roundhouse sidewall was five bays long; further, t= hat there were two bays in the low "front" section (facing the turntable), a= nd there were three bays in the tall "middle" section.  Then instead of= a low "back" section, Bradford has the dramatic two story back wall. =20= So with 15 stalls, Bradford would be a 2-3-0 (15) roundhouse.

By comparison, the Mingo Jct. roundhouse at the beginning of Pennsy Power II= I was built in two phases.  The original construction is a 2-4-0 (16?)=20= house.  But the added, more modern (and longer) stalls are a 3-2-2 (9)=20= design.

I must confess that other pics I've looked at are less conclusive.  For= example, the picture in the Q2 book on page 24 at Crestline establishes the= center section was 4 bays long, but leaves the length of front and back sec= tions unconfirmed.  The p 36 picture, labelled "Chicago", is probably 5= 9th Street, and strongly implies another 4 bay center section, but is otherw= ise indefinite.

The list of "only partials" goes on -- Columbus' Spruce Street (passenger ro= undhouse, 32 stalls) obviously has no back section, but more pix would be ne= eded to confirm or deny that it's a 2-4-0 design.  An aerial view of Co= lumbus' St. Clair Avenue (41 stalls?) is hard to interpret, but seems to sho= w a house with a "front" and a "back" slanting up to meet at a shallow peak,= with no raised center section at all.  Thus, St. Clair Ave. may be a ?= -0-? (41) house.  Guess this shows the hazards of trying to study lines= ide buildings using roster photos.

Despite the slight odor of mental midgetry, I wonder if using such a classif= ication might not help us make sense out of the copies, the older brothers,=20= and the other variants in our study of roundhouses, Lines West and other.
If you find better pictures, please let us know...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_198.15509161.2b7678e0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:13:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s --part1_30.37e8101f.2b7686b0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So now we are going to have two. One made with a cast metal body and some details (I can just imagine) the other a plastic with Genesis-like quality... The players in this hobby just blow my mind... I think they need to be locked in a room once a year and trade projects like Monopoly... Greg Martin --part1_30.37e8101f.2b7686b0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So now we are going to have two.  One mad= e with a cast metal body and some details (I can just imagine) the other a p= lastic with Genesis-like quality...  The players in this hobby just blo= w my mind... I think they need to be locked in a room once a year and trade=20= projects like Monopoly...

Greg Martin --part1_30.37e8101f.2b7686b0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Roundhouse morphology Rick, and other EH buffs, You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code" listing. For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included: Shape - R=Round or S=Straight Material - Brick or Frame Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid, Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition. These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have. ----------------------- Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include: Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood. Name of Builder - When Built - Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center. Pit Dimensions - Diameter - Pit, Circle wall Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone, Top of circle rail Paved - Yes, No Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None. Average number of engines turned/24 hrs - Table - Heavy, Medium, Light. Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number of engines turned/24 hrs.] Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Roundhouse morphology Rick, and other EH buffs, You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code" listing. For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included: Shape - R=Round or S=Straight Material - Brick or Frame Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid, Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition. These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have. ----------------------- Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include: Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood. Name of Builder - When Built - Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center. Pit Dimensions - Diameter - Pit, Circle wall Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone, Top of circle rail Paved - Yes, No Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None. Average number of engines turned/24 hrs - Table - Heavy, Medium, Light. Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number of engines turned/24 hrs.] Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:26:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CF64.F64966C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would be illegal, no?? Sort of like the two major road = construction groups splitting NH and VT to bid on jobs closer to their = equipment and quarry areas. Resulted in heavy fines and in the infinite = wisdom of anti-trust, we now essentially have only one major company. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; gspear01@erols.com=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s So now we are going to have two. One made with a cast metal body and = some details (I can just imagine) the other a plastic with Genesis-like = quality... The players in this hobby just blow my mind... I think they = need to be locked in a room once a year and trade projects like = Monopoly...=20 Greg Martin ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CF64.F64966C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That would be illegal,  no??  = Sort of=20 like the two major road construction groups splitting NH and VT to bid = on jobs=20 closer to their equipment and quarry areas. Resulted in heavy fines and = in the=20 infinite wisdom of anti-trust, we now essentially have only one major=20 company.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; gspear01@erols.com
Sent: Saturday, February 08, = 2003 11:13=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the = New=20 G39s

So now we are going to have two.  One = made with a=20 cast metal body and some details (I can just imagine) the other a = plastic with=20 Genesis-like quality...  The players in this hobby just blow my = mind... I=20 think they need to be locked in a room once a year and trade projects = like=20 Monopoly...

Greg Martin =
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CF64.F64966C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:47:40 -0800 Greg Martin said: >>So now we are going to have two. One made with a cast metal body and some details (I can just imagine) the other a plastic with Genesis-like quality...<< And what model will sell? The CHEAP (Stewart) one, not the DETAILED (Hy-Tech/Eel River) one. Because CHEAP is better, right? And besides, you might actually have to assemble lots of little parts to build the good one. I'm sure that the Stewart model can be thrown together in about 15 minutes. And that's what PRR modelers want, right? Cheap always seems to triumph over anything else, it seems. >>The players in this hobby just blow my mind...<< No argument there! I wonder how far along Stewart's G-39 plans were (if there were any plans at all) when Hy-Tech/Eel River announced their model? Or are they just a predator? Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 13:20:16 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Hi All, I just shot this car in Woodbury NJ. It is rare to see a flat in Woodbury. At first I thought it was a F30, but now I know it is not. F30 was not 52-6 long. The build date is 1-34, and was painted not quite a year ago. Does anyone have an idea way this car would have handrails on it? It would not make a very comfortable track inspection car. If it is of PRR heritage, it has fallen into being painted in NYC markings. Alas, all is not well in Woodbury NJ. (:-<) http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat2.jpg Enjoy, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 13:20:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Hi All, I just shot this car in Woodbury NJ. It is rare to see a flat in Woodbury. At first I thought it was a F30, but now I know it is not. F30 was not 52-6 long. The build date is 1-34, and was painted not quite a year ago. Does anyone have an idea way this car would have handrails on it? It would not make a very comfortable track inspection car. If it is of PRR heritage, it has fallen into being painted in NYC markings. Alas, all is not well in Woodbury NJ. (:-<) http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat2.jpg Enjoy, Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Interchanges at Duncannon and Newport Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:33:57 -0500 From: "Joe Boeke" Listers, Hi all, I am new to the list. I recently moved back to Central PA, and I am I am starting to do some research on the PRR interchanges at Duncannon (Perry County RR) and Newport (Newport and Sherman's Valley RR) for a model railroad layout circa 1895-1920. I also know that there was some surveying and grading work done on a line that would have connected the Perry County RR with the Cumberland Valley RR (from Landisburg to Newville through McLure's Gap I think), as well as some tunneling work through Conococheague Mountain (to connect to the Path Valley RR). At any rate, I was wondering if any of the many Pennsy books had any good photos of the interchanges (or any history of those branch lines). At Jerry's suggestion, I am trying to contact George Pierson to talk with him, but I thought I would through it out to the collected wisdom of the group as well... Thanks, Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 15:34:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2CF87.84C91360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just buy the Stewart ones for empties (they're heavy enough) and the Eel River ones for loaded cars (I'm guessing they'll be too light to run empty... Stewart's sample at Springfield didn't have any details but they do have separate ladders (but cast on regular grabs.) Is Eel River doing G39a's with the brake reservoir on the ends? Stewart's not doing that one (or just hasn't announced it yet..) Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TGREGMRTN@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:14 AM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; gspear01@erols.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s So now we are going to have two. One made with a cast metal body and some details (I can just imagine) the other a plastic with Genesis-like quality... The players in this hobby just blow my mind... I think they need to be locked in a room once a year and trade projects like Monopoly... Greg Martin ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2CF87.84C91360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just=20 buy the Stewart ones for empties (they're heavy enough) and the Eel = River ones=20 for loaded cars (I'm guessing they'll be too light to run=20 empty...
 
Stewart's sample at Springfield didn't have any details but = they do have=20 separate ladders (but cast on regular = grabs.)  
 
Is Eel=20 River doing G39a's with the brake reservoir on the ends?  Stewart's = not=20 doing that one (or just hasn't announced it yet..)
 
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 = 11:14=20 AM
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; gspear01@erols.com
Cc:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New=20 G39s

So now we are going = to have=20 two.  One made with a cast metal body and some details (I can = just=20 imagine) the other a plastic with Genesis-like quality...  The = players in=20 this hobby just blow my mind... I think they need to be locked in a = room once=20 a year and trade projects like Monopoly...

Greg Martin=20
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2CF87.84C91360-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 15:34:05 -0500 Bill, Could it be an idler car?? Don ------------------------------------------ Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net All outgoing email and attachments checked with Norton Anti-Virus ------------------------------------------ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 13:20 To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk; S Scale List Subject: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Hi All, I just shot this car in Woodbury NJ. It is rare to see a flat in Woodbury. At first I thought it was a F30, but now I know it is not. F30 was not 52-6 long. The build date is 1-34, and was painted not quite a year ago. Does anyone have an idea way this car would have handrails on it? It would not make a very comfortable track inspection car. If it is of PRR heritage, it has fallen into being painted in NYC markings. Alas, all is not well in Woodbury NJ. (:-<) http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat2.jpg Enjoy, Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:52:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Bill & List. Late during Conrail the M of E dept had a car( or cars) made up of from old flats to put brake shoes on and then distribute them along the track that trains would be brought in and inspected. Heritage of the cars unknown,just what ever was available for the project. Its possible it may have been a flat that use to hold the MW univan camp cars and the univan may have been destroyed and the flat sat around idle. Sorry this doesn't help on the heritage but I think it answers what they were used for. Can anyone else shed more light on the subject? Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:52:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint --part1_c1.2e53fff8.2b76d61e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill & List. Late during Conrail the M of E dept had a car( or cars) made up of from old flats to put brake shoes on and then distribute them along the track that trains would be brought in and inspected. Heritage of the cars unknown,just what ever was available for the project. Its possible it may have been a flat that use to hold the MW univan camp cars and the univan may have been destroyed and the flat sat around idle. Sorry this doesn't help on the heritage but I think it answers what they were used for. Can anyone else shed more light on the subject? Pat McKinney --part1_c1.2e53fff8.2b76d61e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill & List.
            &nbs= p; Late during Conrail the M of E dept had a car( or cars) made up of from o= ld flats to put brake shoes on and then distribute them along the track that= trains would be brought in and inspected. Heritage of the cars unknown,just= what ever was available for the project. Its possible it may have been a fl= at that use to hold the MW univan camp cars and the univan may have been des= troyed and the flat sat around idle. Sorry this doesn't help on the heritage= but I think it answers what they were used for.
   Can anyone else shed more light on the subject?

Pat McKinney --part1_c1.2e53fff8.2b76d61e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 15:34:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Bill, Could it be an idler car?? Don "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:57:54 -0500 Bill and Don, Can you say "cabin car"? That's its successor on CSXT! Now known as a "shoving platform", the conductor rides on it when making backup moves. NS got all the CR reporting marks except NYC, so if CSXT doesn't want to number it in a CSX series, it HAS to use NYC. Bummer. Must be real comfortable in weather like shown in the picture! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." To: ; "'PRR Talk'" ; "'S Scale List'" Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint > Bill, > > Could it be an idler car?? > > Don > > ------------------------------------------ > Don E. Anderson, Jr. > Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net > All outgoing email and attachments > checked with Norton Anti-Virus > ------------------------------------------ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 13:20 > To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk; S Scale List > Subject: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheeps gray paint > > > Hi All, > > I just shot this car in Woodbury NJ. It is rare to see a flat in Woodbury. > At first I thought it was a F30, but now I know it is not. F30 was not 52-6 > long. The build date is 1-34, and was painted not quite a year ago. Does > anyone have an idea way this car would have handrails on it? It would not > make a very comfortable track inspection car. If it is of PRR heritage, it > has fallen into being painted in NYC markings. Alas, all is not well in > Woodbury NJ. (:-<) > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat1.jpg > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NYC_flat2.jpg > > Enjoy, > > Bill > > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While > Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:00:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s In a message dated 2/8/03 10:53:41 AM Central Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes: << Cheap always seems to triumph over anything else, it seems. >> First, I must have been behind a door because I first heard of the Eel River model a couple weeks ago (and the people I heard it from didn't know if it was a G38 or G39). Second, what are the prices? I don't mind paying $30 for a resin or craft kit of something I will have one of, but a string of ore cars does lend itself to a low price, easier kit (I have a Westerfield H21 which will be the basis for an H25 someday, but I was glad to buy Bowser kits for the H21s and the GLs in quantity). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:13:13 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] communications boxes Hi All, Does anyone have or know where I can get the communications boxes that are next to the cab here? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RS3.jpg I am guessing that a large box for HO may work for the small box for S Scale. I would be interested in buying about 5 of them if you have "extras" in your parts box. Please reply to me with a price and hopefully a scan or photo at billlane@comcast.net because I don't get email from most of my lists. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:42:04 EST Subject: [PRR] N6b cabin car HELP.Offset or Centered cupolas --part1_184.1695f02b.2b770bec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. I am looking for help in determining which of the following car numbers I want to use for my N6b. These are all Pittsburgh Div cabins. I have their assigned locations but do not know if the car has a centered cupola or an offset cupola. This I need to determine which way I want the cupola.Can anyone help in determining this from pictures they may have or some listing they may have. A few have the word stub in with the asignment. Can anyone tell me the meaning of this? Below are the car numbers. Thanks to all who can help in advance. Pat McKinney PRR 980137 PRR 980156 PRR 980242 PRR 980352 PRR 980561 PRR 980792 PRR 980933 PRR 981778 PRR 982160 PRR 982203 --part1_184.1695f02b.2b770bec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
       I am looking for help in determining wh= ich of the following car numbers I want
to use for my N6b. These are all Pittsburgh Div cabins. I have their assigne= d locations but do not know if the car has a centered cupola or an offset cu= pola. This I need to determine which way I want the cupola.Can anyone help i= n determining this from pictures they may have or some listing they may have= .
   A few have the word stub in with the asignment. Can anyone tell= me the meaning of this?
   Below are the car numbers. Thanks to all who can help in advanc= e.

Pat McKinney

PRR 980137
PRR 980156
PRR 980242
PRR 980352
PRR 980561
PRR 980792
PRR 980933
PRR 981778
PRR 982160
PRR 982203

 --part1_184.1695f02b.2b770bec_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:15:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheep's gray paint Bill, et al., The car in question was built using the PRR class F30 (52' 6") flat car. It is known as either a "push car" or "shove platform," depending on who you ask. CR had this equipment built, by the CSX at its Raceland Shops, to replace cabin cars. They are stenciled NYC because Conrail Shared Asset Operations (CSAO) is not a member of the AAR and therefore, does not have reporting marks. The cars where stenciled NYC because these former CR flats came into CSX ownership after split date and are also stenciled for restricted service due to age. The hand rails that run the length allow for the crew members to walk from one end to the other and are equipped with conductor valves and backup whistles. The purpose of this platform is to provide a "safe" area for crew members to ride when making a shove move for distances over one mile. CR currently has 35 of this type car (NYC 901001 through 901035) on its property from Detroit to South Jersey. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:15:05 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] F30? A wolf in sheep's gray paint Bill, et al., The car in question was built using the PRR class F30 (52' 6") flat car. It is known as either a "push car" or "shove platform," depending on who you ask. CR had this equipment built, by the CSX at its Raceland Shops, to replace cabin cars. They are stenciled NYC because Conrail Shared Asset Operations (CSAO) is not a member of the AAR and therefore, does not have reporting marks. The cars where stenciled NYC because these former CR flats came into CSX ownership after split date and are also stenciled for restricted service due to age. The hand rails that run the length allow for the crew members to walk from one end to the other and are equipped with conductor valves and backup whistles. The purpose of this platform is to provide a "safe" area for crew members to ride when making a shove move for distances over one mile. CR currently has 35 of this type car (NYC 901001 through 901035) on its property from Detroit to South Jersey. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Week Old news: Atlas & InterMountain "O" Scale Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:42:49 -0500 Dick Ross wrote: Atlas "O" has announced...a new "body" of their own - Postwar rebuild of a USRA car - straight lower sill, & a new steel body. Is the Pennsy version anywhere close to an X-26 or X-29? Think they may have stenciled it X-26c. DISCLAIMER: This is a preliminary review based on the pre-production sample photos at the Atlas "O" website and may not take all features of the model into account. PROTOTYPE INFO: During the 1930s and continuing into the 1940s, many railroad (including the Pennsy) chose to rebuild their USRA DS and SS boxcars into all steel boxcars rather than reapply wood sheathing. Youngstown marketed kits to the railroads during the 1930s to rebuild single- and double-sheathed boxcars; however, each individual railroad chose to rebuild the cars in their own shops (especially in the 1930s to keep their shop forces employed during the Depression). Some roads simply replaced the sides while retaining the original roof and ends; others replaced the sides and roof while retaining the ends, and one (KCS) doing a USRA DS rebuild in 1949 by fitting a modern boxcar body, ends and all on top of the old underframe. Almost all rebuilds increased the height of the car, and railroads took different approaches to making the ends taller, with some adding a blank panel and others splicing in sections of Murphy ends. The cars were also widened - a reliable spotting feature of a rebuilt SS or DS boxcar is an indented side sill with trapezoidal or triangular brackets supporting the new steel sides. The wider cars required end modifications as well - most railroads simply used an angle to join the ends to the side creating an indent there, but some roads used sheet metal to widen the ends creating a more familiar square corner. (This can be seen on Class X26C and X26F cars.) The original trucks were almost always reused; the underframe was always reused (though may have been replaced later in a second rebuild). The net result is that rebuilt boxcars were unique to each railroad. For a more detailed account of USRA DS rebuilds, see "Steel Side USRA Rebuilds," Parts 1 and 2 by Martin Lofton in the September and October 1989 Railroad Model Craftsman. MODEL FEATURES: Sides: 8-panel steel sides, no distinct inset side sill, T-section support brackets. Ends: Not pictured, but product descriptions notes "different ends as per the prototype." Roof: Original USRA steel-sheathed Murphy roof Underframe: USRA SS (straight center sill) PROS: - Injection-molded plastic non-Tinplate USRA Steel Rebuilt Boxcars not previously available. - Paint and lettering appear to be excellent. - Car numbers fit into number series for rebuilt cars for CMO (with one exception), GN, PRR, and UP. (I don't have info available for the NYC or NYS&W cars). CONS: - The combination of details on the model does not match any prototype. o There is no noticeable side sill inset, and very few rebuilt boxcars had flush side sills. o The support brackets are actually closer to those used on Pennsy Class X29 rebuilds than anything used on an SS or DS rebuild. o Without this inset, the car fails to capture the look of a wider new carbody fitted to a narrow older underframe. o This model is probably closest to the ACL and SL-SF USRA DS rebuilds, but will need a fishbelly underframe and need modifications to the side sills to match the prototype. The prototypes almost all of the roadnames offered differed significantly from the model. o All rebuilds received power hand brakes. None have the vertical staff hand brake of the model. PROTOTYPE COMPARISON: Kit No 6481, CMO CMO 37100-37498 (even), 200 cars rebuilt c. 1941, later renumbered into 1600 and 1700 number series (even) when repainted into green and yellow scheme. (Avoid the car that Atlas offers with the odd number.) Sides: 8 panel Ends: 5/B/5/5 Murphy Ends Roof: Viking Underframe: USRA DS (fishbelly) Kit No. 6482, GN GN 27000-27799, 800 cars rebuilt in 1961 from DS boxcars similar to 1937 AAR boxcars (the car modeled by Athearn's HO scale DS boxcar). Sides: 12 panel Ends: 4/5 Dreadnaught Roof: Rectangular Panel Underframe: Non-USRA, straight center sill Kit No. 6483, NYC NYC rebuilt some 1916-design DS cars into all steel boxcars - I don't have enough info on those cars to make a call on the kit. Their subsidiary PMcK&Y rebuilt their USRA SS cars which later went to the P&LE (modeled by Tichy's No. 4028 kit in HO): Sides: 8 panel Ends: 1/5/5/5 Murphy Ends Roof: Rectangular Panel Underframe: USRA SS (straight center sill) Kit No. 6484, PRR PRR 104260-107759, Class X26C, 3500 cars rebuilt 1945-1949. 700 Class X26C rebuilt to Class X26F in the early 1960s with new underframes. Sides: 10 panel Ends: 5/5/5 Murphy with filler plate at top Roof: Rectangular Panel (early), Diagonal Panel (later) Underframe: USRA SS (straight center sill) NOTE: This model isn't even close to Class X26C or any Class X29 rebuild. Kit No. 6485, UP UP 180000-182346, Class B-50-17 rebuilt from 2000 Class B-50-13 DS boxcars similar to USRA DS design. Sides: 10 panel Ends: 1/5/5/5 Murphy Ends Roof: Rectangular Panel Underframe: "Bettendorf" Underframe (similar to PFE reefer underframe) Kit No. 6486, NYS&W I don't have specific information on this car, but believe it was obtained second hand by the Susquehanna in the 1960s from an equipment leasing dealer. Would like prototype pictures of this car. CONCLUSIONS: This is a prototype not previously available in O scale; however, the model is a compromise of details that doesn't match the majority of prototypes and will require an amount of rework to match a specific prototype. The buyer must weigh whether or not an inaccurate car is worth the $54.95 MSRP. Ben Hom P.S. NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 02:26:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s --part1_f4.28da5115.2b775c9f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob writes... > Just buy the Stewart ones for empties (they're heavy enough) and the Eel > River ones for loaded cars (I'm guessing they'll be too light to run > empty... > > Stewart's sample at Springfield didn't have any details but they do have > separate ladders (but cast on regular grabs). > > Is Eel River doing G39A's with the brake reservoir on the ends? Stewart's > not doing that one (or just hasn't announced it yet). > > Rob > Well, Providing Eel River doesn't scrap the project and he may very well. He was going to do the G39, G39A and the G38. I am all in favor of competition, and having a meeting once a year to decide who was going to do what is not illegal because I realize most of the players ... well, let's just say they skew the truth. This is why I like relationships with manufacturers who are honest and forthright, like Walthers and I would say there is a couple of others. Nuff said, because things like this just frost my backside... Now we dilute the market with a toy-like example of a long needed prototype ... go figure. Like Mark Evans says, you might spend a few hobby hours having to put together something that looks like an accomplishment, instead of something I might see under a Christmas tree... Just my thoughts... Greg Martin --part1_f4.28da5115.2b775c9f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rob writes...

Just buy the Stewart ones for empties (they're heavy enough= ) and the Eel River ones for loaded cars (I'm guessing they'll be too light=20= to run empty...

Stewart's sample at Springfi= eld didn't have any details but they do have separate ladders (but cast on r= egular grabs).
<= BR>

Is Eel River doing G39A's wi= th the brake reservoir on the ends?  Stewart's not doing that one (or j= ust hasn't announced it yet).

Rob

 Well, Providing Eel Ri= ver doesn't scrap the project and he may very well. He was going to do the G= 39, G39A and the G38.  I am all in favor of competition, and having a m= eeting once a year to decide who was going to do what is not illegal because= I realize most of the players ... well, let's just say they skew the truth.= This is why I like relationships with manufacturers who are honest and fort= hright, like Walthers and I would say there is a couple of others. Nuff said= , because things like this just frost my backside... Now we dilute the marke= t with a toy-like example of a long needed prototype ... go figure.  Li= ke Mark Evans says, you might spend a few hobby hours having to put together= something that looks like an accomplishment, instead of something I might s= ee under a Christmas tree... 

Just my thoughts...

Greg Martin
--part1_f4.28da5115.2b775c9f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 08:07:08 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] N6 numbers Pat & lists, You are probably using the same Cabin roster I have from 1958? There were 850 active N6 at that time. If I remember a Cabin slide show from a PRR convention correctly, the cupolas were not tracked. You could have had almost any combination. Furthermore, I think the presenter had proof that the same car had different cupolas due to a rebuild. As usual, the best confirmation is with photos. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 08:07:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6 numbers Pat & lists, You are probably using the same Cabin roster I have from 1958? There were 850 active N6 at that time. If I remember a Cabin slide show from a PRR convention correctly, the cupolas were not tracked. You could have had almost any combination. Furthermore, I think the presenter had proof that the same car had different cupolas due to a rebuild. As usual, the best confirmation is with photos. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:40:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s --part1_180.15f1cd14.2b77d05b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Evan writes... > And what model will sell? The CHEAP (Stewart) one, not the DETAILED > (Hy-Tech/Eel River) one. Because CHEAP is better, right? And besides, you > might actually have to assemble lots of little parts to build the good one. > I'm sure that the Stewart model can be thrown together in about 15 minutes. > And that's what PRR modelers want, right? Cheap always seems to triumph > over anything else, it seems. You are right we seem to be an easy crowd to just push around... "they'll buy anything as long as it says Pennsy..." > > >>The players in this hobby just blow my mind...<< > > No argument there! I wonder how far along Stewart's G-39 plans were (if > there were any plans at all) when Hy-Tech/Eel River announced their model? > Or are they just a predator? > > Mark T. Evans > Anaheim, CA > I did have a conversation with Steve just as Jimmy started cutting his dies and Steve ask me who was doing the car and I told him and I ask him straight out, are you going to do the car because we sure don't need two and his reply was no... And that is the name of the tune... Again just what we need two of the same thing. Greg Martin --part1_180.15f1cd14.2b77d05b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Evan writes...

And what model will sell? The C= HEAP (Stewart) one, not the DETAILED (Hy-Tech/Eel River) one. Because CHEAP=20= is better, right? And besides, you might actually have to assemble lots of l= ittle parts to build the good one.
I'm sure that the Stewart model can be thrown together in about 15 minutes.<= BR> And that's what PRR modelers want, right? Cheap always seems to triumph over= anything else, it seems.

You are right we seem t= o be an easy crowd to just push around... "they'll buy anything as long as i= t says Pennsy..."


>>The players in this hobby just blow my mind...<<

No argument there! I wonder how far along Stewart's G-39 plans were (if ther= e were any plans at all) when Hy-Tech/Eel River announced their model? Or ar= e they just a predator?

Mark T. Evans
Anaheim, CA


I did have a conversation with Steve just as Jimmy started cutting his dies=20= and Steve ask me who was doing the car and I told him and I ask him straight= out, are you going to do the car because we sure don't need two and his rep= ly was no...  And that is the name of the tune... Again just what we ne= ed two of the same thing.

Greg Martin --part1_180.15f1cd14.2b77d05b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:21:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2D035.D7872E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; In the old days, (WW2 era), would the PRR have used any 3 compartment = tankers for their yard POL stores and delivery?? Can't seem to find any = pictures to go along with this. Earl Myers PRR Canton District, 1944 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2D035.D7872E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 In the old days, (WW2 era), would = the PRR=20 have used any 3 compartment tankers for their yard POL stores and = delivery??=20 Can't seem to find any pictures to go along with this.
Earl Myers
PRR Canton District,=20 1944
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2D035.D7872E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:15:42 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Kineke Subject: [PRR] Hello, and a request Hi all, I just signed onto this list today and am looking forward to it's discussions! I am trying to make an accurate Train Dispatcher territory for the 1965 era PRR from Landover to Bell, and although I have most ofthe interlocking info, I am not quite remembering the layout(s) of the following Interlockings from 1965 configuration... Odenton Bowie Gwynn Fulton B&P Union I have "Vern", Landover, Winans, and Lanham (Beltway) When I was growing up, my father and I would "tour" the interlocking stations up and down the present day Northeast Corridor, and Main Line Phila-Harris. I have many fond memories of looking at the model board and sketching the diagram into my many notebooks (most of which are now lost :-( I spent most of my "Tower" time in either Perryville or Edgewood since that's where I used to live. If anyone can help, I will give full credit in the release of the territory and of course, it will be for free. Anyways, Glad to be here... Paul Kineke Altus AFB, OK __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:01:46 -0600 Hi All: Mark said: >And what model will sell? The CHEAP (Stewart) one, not the DETAILED (Hy-Tech/Eel River) one. Because CHEAP is better, right? And besides, you might actually have to assemble lots of little parts to build the good one. I'm sure that the Stewart model can be thrown together in about 15 minutes. And that's what PRR modelers want, right? Cheap always seems to triumph over anything else, it seems.< Greg replied: >You are right we seem to be an easy crowd to just push around... "they'll buy anything as long as it says Pennsy..."< And Greg stated further: >I did have a conversation with Steve just as Jimmy started cutting his dies and Steve ask me who was doing the car and I told him and I ask him straight out, are you going to do the car because we sure don't need two and his reply was no... And that is the name of the tune... Again just what we need two of the same thing.< Now, I want to know: Why can't Stewart make the most common version, and Eel make the more "specialized" cars? Or is this too simple? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:08:11 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] PRR 9833 or CR 4333 I am presently building a 1.6 scale model of this locomotive. It will be painted and lettered as delivered, TUSCAN RED with the 5 stripe lettering scheme. It was on the "active" roster in CONWAY or COLLINGWOOD as of 4-1-77. Does anyone know it's history after 4-1-77?? Was it part of the "trade-in" to EMD for the first GP-38's?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:23:08 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] H&BT and the PRR Hello, all, I'm curious - was there some sort of legal control of the Huntingdon & Broad Top RR by the PRR back in the early part of the 20th century? I've noticed that in some documents (for example, in a 1916 and 1920 PRR list of passenger equipment) the H&BT cars are listed just like other PRR subsidiaries. I know that the H&BT used PRR tracks to reach Bedford and I think there was some additional connection for the PRR's access to Cumberland, MD. When I first saw this listing of the H&BT under the PRR, it was in a 1919 ORER and I assumed that it had something to do with the USRA management of the railroads but maybe someone can spell out more details. Certainly the H&BT's equipment remained its own (unlike other PRR subsidiaries in the 20th century). Look forward to hearing from you, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:39:03 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Why a simple morphology for roundhouses In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: Roundhouse morphology > > Rick, and other EH buffs, > > You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code" > listing. > > For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included: > > Shape - R=Round or S=Straight > Material - Brick or Frame > Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid, > Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition. > > These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have. > > ----------------------- > > Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include: > > Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood. > Name of Builder - > When Built - > Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center. > Pit Dimensions - > Diameter - Pit, Circle wall > Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone, Top of > circle rail > Paved - Yes, No > Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None. > Average number of engines turned/24 hrs - > Table - Heavy, Medium, Light. > Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number > of engines turned/24 hrs.] > > Al > Al, All worthy data, and may we advance to that. However, we're still at a simple level. What Earl and others and I have been trying to figure out for several weeks is: 1. We know that at least one group of Lines West roundhouses were built from a single set of plans. The plans refer to these as the "1919 Lines West Roundhouse", and refers to Crestline, Canton, Mingo Jct., Scully, and two not built at Mosier (Youngstown OH) and at Jeffersonville IN (across the Ohio River from me). 2. We thought we saw additional roundhouses that resemble these, but are not on the list. We suspected they differed in design or in some dimensions. Suspects included Bradford, Columbus Spruce Street, and 59th Street Chicago. 3. Thus, for starters, I suggested classifying these roundhouses by the number of bays between the pillars in the side wall. Since each bay has a group of windows, this count is something that can be discerned from aerial photos or sometimes even behind a loco roster shot. Now that Earl has sent me some scans of aerial pix of Crestline, there's not much doubt in my mind that Crestline was built with a front section (facing the turntable) two bays long, a center high bay section four bays long, and no back section -- in other words, the back of the roundhouse does not step back down, but has a very tall windowed wall extending from the roofline to the ground. This makes Crestline a 2-4-0 roundhouse, which agrees with the Mingo Jct aerial in the front of Pennsy Power III. Verified so far: 2-4-0 Crestline, Mingo Jct (original construction), both "1919 Lines West" design (and others say Canton is the "mirror image" of Crestline) 2-3-0 Bradford (1918) 3-2-2 Mingo Jct addition on south end (longer stalls, perhaps WW2 vintage) The search for informative pix continues... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:39:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Why a simple morphology for roundhouses --part1_132.1a542b75.2b782477_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: Roundhouse morphology > > Rick, and other EH buffs, > > You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code" > listing. > > For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included: > > Shape - R=Round or S=Straight > Material - Brick or Frame > Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid, > Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition. > > These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have. > > ----------------------- > > Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include: > > Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood. > Name of Builder - > When Built - > Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center. > Pit Dimensions - > Diameter - Pit, Circle wall > Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone, Top of > circle rail > Paved - Yes, No > Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None. > Average number of engines turned/24 hrs - > Table - Heavy, Medium, Light. > Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number > of engines turned/24 hrs.] > > Al > Al, All worthy data, and may we advance to that. However, we're still at a simple level. What Earl and others and I have been trying to figure out for several weeks is: 1. We know that at least one group of Lines West roundhouses were built from a single set of plans. The plans refer to these as the "1919 Lines West Roundhouse", and refers to Crestline, Canton, Mingo Jct., Scully, and two not built at Mosier (Youngstown OH) and at Jeffersonville IN (across the Ohio River from me). 2. We thought we saw additional roundhouses that resemble these, but are not on the list. We suspected they differed in design or in some dimensions. Suspects included Bradford, Columbus Spruce Street, and 59th Street Chicago. 3. Thus, for starters, I suggested classifying these roundhouses by the number of bays between the pillars in the side wall. Since each bay has a group of windows, this count is something that can be discerned from aerial photos or sometimes even behind a loco roster shot. Now that Earl has sent me some scans of aerial pix of Crestline, there's not much doubt in my mind that Crestline was built with a front section (facing the turntable) two bays long, a center high bay section four bays long, and no back section -- in other words, the back of the roundhouse does not step back down, but has a very tall windowed wall extending from the roofline to the ground. This makes Crestline a 2-4-0 roundhouse, which agrees with the Mingo Jct aerial in the front of Pennsy Power III. Verified so far: 2-4-0 Crestline, Mingo Jct (original construction), both "1919 Lines West" design (and others say Canton is the "mirror image" of Crestline) 2-3-0 Bradford (1918) 3-2-2 Mingo Jct addition on south end (longer stalls, perhaps WW2 vintage) The search for informative pix continues... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_132.1a542b75.2b782477_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard=20= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500
   From: Al Buchan <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Roundhouse morphology

Rick, and other EH buffs,

You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code"
listing.

For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included:

Shape - R=3DRound or S=3DStraight
Material - Brick or Frame
Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid,=
Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition.

These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have.

-----------------------

Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include:

Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood.
Name of Builder -
When Built -
Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center.
Pit Dimensions -
    Diameter - Pit, Circle wall
    Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone,=20= Top of
circle rail
    Paved - Yes, No
    Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None.
Average number of engines turned/24 hrs -
Table - Heavy, Medium, Light.
Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number
of engines turned/24 hrs.]

Al


Al,

All worthy data, and may we advance to that.  However, we're still at a= simple level.  What Earl and others and I have been trying to figure o= ut for several weeks is:

1.  We know that at least one group of Lines West roundhouses were buil= t from a single set of plans.  The plans refer to these as the "1919 Li= nes West Roundhouse", and refers to Crestline, Canton, Mingo Jct., Scully, a= nd two not built at Mosier (Youngstown OH) and at Jeffersonville IN (across=20= the Ohio River from me).
2.  We thought we saw additional roundhouses that resemble these, but a= re not on the list.  We suspected they differed in design or in some di= mensions.  Suspects included Bradford, Columbus Spruce Street, and 59th= Street Chicago.
3.  Thus, for starters, I suggested classifying these roundhouses by th= e number of bays between the pillars in the side wall.  Since each bay=20= has a group of windows, this count is something that can be discerned from a= erial photos or sometimes even behind a loco roster shot.

Now that Earl has sent me some scans of aerial pix of Crestline, there's not= much doubt in my mind that Crestline was built with a front section (facing= the turntable) two bays long, a center high bay section four bays long, and= no back section -- in other words, the back of the roundhouse does not step= back down, but has a very tall windowed wall extending from the roofline to= the ground.  This makes Crestline a 2-4-0 roundhouse, which agrees wit= h the Mingo Jct aerial in the front of Pennsy Power III.

Verified so far:
2-4-0 Crestline, Mingo Jct (original construction), both "1919 Lines West" d= esign (and others say Canton is the "mirror image" of Crestline)
2-3-0 Bradford (1918)
3-2-2 Mingo Jct addition on south end (longer stalls, perhaps WW2 vintage)
The search for informative pix continues...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_132.1a542b75.2b782477_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Paint Problem Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:42:47 -0500 I was about ready to do some airbrushing with a new bottle of Polly Scale paint thinned with Polly S airbrush thinner and the mixture curdled. After cleaning out the airbrush I thinned some more paint from the same bottle with distilled water and had no problems. Has anyone else run into this problem? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:11:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Class FGR and FGRA A few weeks ago Bruce Smith and I (perhaps some others) were discussion the class FGR and FGRA conversions to revenue service before work equipment status. While cruising through PCG-3 today I came across a caption under a photo of class FGR 497918, on page 118. It states "During World War 2 when additional flat cars were needed for the loading of wide military equipment, the sides and ends of 1100 class GR and GRA composite gondola cars were removed to convert them into class FGR and FGRA flat cars." In as much as freight car guru Ian Fischer authored this volume I give the caption a high degree of accuracy. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:12:02 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Why a simple morphology for roundhouses In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: Roundhouse morphology > > Rick, and other EH buffs, > > You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code" > listing. > > For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included: > > Shape - R=Round or S=Straight > Material - Brick or Frame > Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid, > Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition. > > These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have. > > ----------------------- > > Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include: > > Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood. > Name of Builder - > When Built - > Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center. > Pit Dimensions - > Diameter - Pit, Circle wall > Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone, Top of > circle rail > Paved - Yes, No > Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None. > Average number of engines turned/24 hrs - > Table - Heavy, Medium, Light. > Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number > of engines turned/24 hrs.] > > Al > Al, All worthy data, and may we advance to that. However, we're still at a simple level. What Earl and others and I have been trying to figure out for several weeks is: 1. We know that at least one group of Lines West roundhouses were built from a single set of plans. The plans refer to these as the "1919 Lines West Roundhouse", and refers to Crestline, Canton, Mingo Jct., Scully, and two not built at Mosier (Youngstown OH) and at Jeffersonville IN (across the Ohio River from me). 2. We thought we saw additional roundhouses that resemble these, but are not on the list. We suspected they differed in design or in some dimensions. Suspects included Bradford, Columbus Spruce Street, and 59th Street Chicago. 3. Thus, for starters, I suggested classifying these roundhouses by the number of bays between the pillars in the side wall. Since each bay has a group of windows, this count is something that can be discerned from aerial photos or sometimes even behind a loco roster shot. Now that Earl has sent me some scans of aerial pix of Crestline, there's not much doubt in my mind that Crestline was built with a front section (facing the turntable) two bays long, a center high bay section four bays long, and no back section -- in other words, the back of the roundhouse does not step back down, but has a very tall windowed wall extending from the roofline to the ground. This makes Crestline a 2-4-0 roundhouse, which agrees with the Mingo Jct aerial in the front of Pennsy Power III. Verified so far: 2-4-0 Crestline, Mingo Jct (original construction), both "1919 Lines West" design (and others say Canton is the "mirror image" of Crestline) 2-3-0 Bradford (1918) 3-2-2 Mingo Jct addition on south end (longer stalls, perhaps WW2 vintage) The search for informative pix continues... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:12:10 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] AFS -- hot trains a problem to combine In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 01:18:18 -0600 > From: Dominic M Mazoch > Subject: Freight Schedules > > Remember too, that if there are too few cars, trains could be combined. > Example: You might have two trains to go to two different yards in St. > Louis. But, say, you don't have enough cars for two separte trains. ONE > train then would be sent for St. Louis, with two blocks of cars, a block > for each yard. > > Dominic Mazoch > Dominic, The thing to remember is that St. Louis was a "gateway" (in traffic work, also referred to as a snake pit). The purpose of the two trains was to get into each yard directly and separately for speed. In St. Louis, where the relevant yards aren't strung out on one line like beads, combining the trains won't work. If an A&S string goes north into competitor TRRA's yard, it'll be a cold day when it comes out again. If a train goes south to A&S Gateway Yard, the yard likely won't want to accept the TRRA cars, citing "space problems". If either cut goes into PRR Rose Lake first -- well, that's the day's delay we were trying to avoid in the first place. Bottom line -- if there's a service commitment here, then many of these trains have to run independently, no matter how short they are (remember Santa Fe's "Super C" carrying three trailers some days?). If the connection is really competitive, the train will average "long enough to run". If not, then it will soon be "rearranged" out of the Arranged Freight Schedule. History records that multiple trains into and through (and around) St. Louis were successful for many years -- and undoubtedly still are. In fact, Conrail became such a wizard at running trains into other people's yards there that Rose Lake was scrapped and rebuilt as an intermodal yard. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:12:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6's, Foreigner's waiting room. In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:43:21 EST > From: PKMac101@aol.com > Subject: N6b cabin car HELP.Offset or Centered cupolas > > List. > I am looking for help in determining which of the following car > numbers I want > to use for my N6b. These are all Pittsburgh Div cabins. I have their > assigned > locations but do not know if the car has a centered cupola or an offset > cupola. This I need to determine which way I want the cupola.Can anyone > help > in determining this from pictures they may have or some listing they may > have. > A few have the word stub in with the asignment. Can anyone tell me the > meaning of this? > Below are the car numbers. Thanks to all who can help in advance. > > Pat McKinney > > PRR 980137 > PRR 980156 > PRR 980242 > PRR 980352 > PRR 980561 > PRR 980792 > PRR 980933 > PRR 981778 > PRR 982160 > PRR 982203 > Pat, I ran this list past my freight car photo index but got no hits. BTW, have been enjoying your station drawing book again. Is one of the waiting rooms (Butler Jct on the Conemaugh Div) really labelled "foreigner's waiting room"? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:11:12 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Class FGR and FGRA A few weeks ago Bruce Smith and I (perhaps some others) were discussion the class FGR and FGRA conversions to revenue service before work equipment status. While cruising through PCG-3 today I came across a caption under a photo of class FGR 497918, on page 118. It states "During World War 2 when additional flat cars were needed for the loading of wide military equipment, the sides and ends of 1100 class GR and GRA composite gondola cars were removed to convert them into class FGR and FGRA flat cars." In as much as freight car guru Ian Fischer authored this volume I give the caption a high degree of accuracy. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:12:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Why a simple morphology for roundhouses --part1_1d6.2253294.2b782c32_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: Roundhouse morphology > > Rick, and other EH buffs, > > You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code" > listing. > > For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included: > > Shape - R=Round or S=Straight > Material - Brick or Frame > Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid, > Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition. > > These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have. > > ----------------------- > > Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include: > > Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood. > Name of Builder - > When Built - > Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center. > Pit Dimensions - > Diameter - Pit, Circle wall > Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone, Top of > circle rail > Paved - Yes, No > Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None. > Average number of engines turned/24 hrs - > Table - Heavy, Medium, Light. > Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number > of engines turned/24 hrs.] > > Al > Al, All worthy data, and may we advance to that. However, we're still at a simple level. What Earl and others and I have been trying to figure out for several weeks is: 1. We know that at least one group of Lines West roundhouses were built from a single set of plans. The plans refer to these as the "1919 Lines West Roundhouse", and refers to Crestline, Canton, Mingo Jct., Scully, and two not built at Mosier (Youngstown OH) and at Jeffersonville IN (across the Ohio River from me). 2. We thought we saw additional roundhouses that resemble these, but are not on the list. We suspected they differed in design or in some dimensions. Suspects included Bradford, Columbus Spruce Street, and 59th Street Chicago. 3. Thus, for starters, I suggested classifying these roundhouses by the number of bays between the pillars in the side wall. Since each bay has a group of windows, this count is something that can be discerned from aerial photos or sometimes even behind a loco roster shot. Now that Earl has sent me some scans of aerial pix of Crestline, there's not much doubt in my mind that Crestline was built with a front section (facing the turntable) two bays long, a center high bay section four bays long, and no back section -- in other words, the back of the roundhouse does not step back down, but has a very tall windowed wall extending from the roofline to the ground. This makes Crestline a 2-4-0 roundhouse, which agrees with the Mingo Jct aerial in the front of Pennsy Power III. Verified so far: 2-4-0 Crestline, Mingo Jct (original construction), both "1919 Lines West" design (and others say Canton is the "mirror image" of Crestline) 2-3-0 Bradford (1918) 3-2-2 Mingo Jct addition on south end (longer stalls, perhaps WW2 vintage) The search for informative pix continues... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1d6.2253294.2b782c32_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard=20= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0500
   From: Al Buchan <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Roundhouse morphology

Rick, and other EH buffs,

You also might want to consider adding other attributes to the "code"
listing.

For example the PRR LW in its early Engine House reports included:

Shape - R=3DRound or S=3DStraight
Material - Brick or Frame
Roof - Asphalt & Slag, Gravel, Slate, Shingle, Granite, Board, Ruberoid,=
Slate/Gravel, Tin, Composition.

These are all items in a 1908 LW-NW EH report I have.

-----------------------

Also don't forget the turntables. Early PRR LW reports I have include:

Material - Iron, Cast Iron, Steel, Wood.
Name of Builder -
When Built -
Girder Dimensions - Length, Depth, Width at center to center.
Pit Dimensions -
    Diameter - Pit, Circle wall
    Depth Front Face of Rail on Table - Top of center stone,=20= Top of
circle rail
    Paved - Yes, No
    Circle wall - Stone/brick, Stone, Brick, Wood, None.
Average number of engines turned/24 hrs -
Table - Heavy, Medium, Light.
Service - Very heavy, Heavy, Medium, Light [Function of Average number
of engines turned/24 hrs.]

Al


Al,

All worthy data, and may we advance to that.  However, we're still at a= simple level.  What Earl and others and I have been trying to figure o= ut for several weeks is:

1.  We know that at least one group of Lines West roundhouses were buil= t from a single set of plans.  The plans refer to these as the "1919 Li= nes West Roundhouse", and refers to Crestline, Canton, Mingo Jct., Scully, a= nd two not built at Mosier (Youngstown OH) and at Jeffersonville IN (across=20= the Ohio River from me).
2.  We thought we saw additional roundhouses that resemble these, but a= re not on the list.  We suspected they differed in design or in some di= mensions.  Suspects included Bradford, Columbus Spruce Street, and 59th= Street Chicago.
3.  Thus, for starters, I suggested classifying these roundhouses by th= e number of bays between the pillars in the side wall.  Since each bay=20= has a group of windows, this count is something that can be discerned from a= erial photos or sometimes even behind a loco roster shot.

Now that Earl has sent me some scans of aerial pix of Crestline, there's not= much doubt in my mind that Crestline was built with a front section (facing= the turntable) two bays long, a center high bay section four bays long, and= no back section -- in other words, the back of the roundhouse does not step= back down, but has a very tall windowed wall extending from the roofline to= the ground.  This makes Crestline a 2-4-0 roundhouse, which agrees wit= h the Mingo Jct aerial in the front of Pennsy Power III.

Verified so far:
2-4-0 Crestline, Mingo Jct (original construction), both "1919 Lines West" d= esign (and others say Canton is the "mirror image" of Crestline)
2-3-0 Bradford (1918)
3-2-2 Mingo Jct addition on south end (longer stalls, perhaps WW2 vintage)
The search for informative pix continues...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1d6.2253294.2b782c32_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:12:10 EST Subject: [PRR] AFS -- hot trains a problem to combine --part1_19c.10b453ee.2b782c3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 01:18:18 -0600 > From: Dominic M Mazoch > Subject: Freight Schedules > > Remember too, that if there are too few cars, trains could be combined. > Example: You might have two trains to go to two different yards in St. > Louis. But, say, you don't have enough cars for two separte trains. ONE > train then would be sent for St. Louis, with two blocks of cars, a block > for each yard. > > Dominic Mazoch > Dominic, The thing to remember is that St. Louis was a "gateway" (in traffic work, also referred to as a snake pit). The purpose of the two trains was to get into each yard directly and separately for speed. In St. Louis, where the relevant yards aren't strung out on one line like beads, combining the trains won't work. If an A&S string goes north into competitor TRRA's yard, it'll be a cold day when it comes out again. If a train goes south to A&S Gateway Yard, the yard likely won't want to accept the TRRA cars, citing "space problems". If either cut goes into PRR Rose Lake first -- well, that's the day's delay we were trying to avoid in the first place. Bottom line -- if there's a service commitment here, then many of these trains have to run independently, no matter how short they are (remember Santa Fe's "Super C" carrying three trailers some days?). If the connection is really competitive, the train will average "long enough to run". If not, then it will soon be "rearranged" out of the Arranged Freight Schedule. History records that multiple trains into and through (and around) St. Louis were successful for many years -- and undoubtedly still are. In fact, Conrail became such a wizard at running trains into other people's yards there that Rose Lake was scrapped and rebuilt as an intermodal yard. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_19c.10b453ee.2b782c3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard=20= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 10
   Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 01:18:18 -0600
   From: Dominic M Mazoch <domemt@juno.com>
Subject: Freight Schedules

Remember too, that if there are too few cars, trains could be combined.
Example:  You might have two trains to go to two different yards in St.=
Louis.  But, say, you don't have enough cars for two separte trains.&nb= sp; ONE
train then would be sent for St. Louis, with two blocks of cars, a block
for each yard.

Dominic Mazoch


Dominic,

The thing to remember is that St. Louis was a "gateway" (in traffic work, al= so referred to as a snake pit).  The purpose of the two trains was to g= et into each yard directly and separately for speed.  In St. Louis, whe= re the relevant yards aren't strung out on one line like beads, combining th= e trains won't work. 

If an A&S string goes north into competitor TRRA's yard, it'll be a cold= day when it comes out again.  If a train goes south to A&S Gateway= Yard, the yard likely won't want to accept the TRRA cars, citing "space pro= blems".  If either cut goes into PRR Rose Lake first -- well, that's th= e day's delay we were trying to avoid in the first place.

Bottom line -- if there's a service commitment here, then many of these trai= ns have to run independently, no matter how short they are (remember Santa F= e's "Super C" carrying three trailers some days?).  If the connection i= s really competitive, the train will average "long enough to run".  If=20= not, then it will soon be "rearranged" out of the Arranged Freight Schedule.=

History records that multiple trains into and through (and around) St. Louis= were successful for many years -- and undoubtedly still are.  In fact,= Conrail became such a wizard at running trains into other people's yards th= ere that Rose Lake was scrapped and rebuilt as an intermodal yard.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_19c.10b453ee.2b782c3a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:12:07 EST Subject: [PRR] N6's, Foreigner's waiting room. --part1_a6.33c55c30.2b782c37_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:43:21 EST > From: PKMac101@aol.com > Subject: N6b cabin car HELP.Offset or Centered cupolas > > List. > I am looking for help in determining which of the following car > numbers I want > to use for my N6b. These are all Pittsburgh Div cabins. I have their > assigned > locations but do not know if the car has a centered cupola or an offset > cupola. This I need to determine which way I want the cupola.Can anyone > help > in determining this from pictures they may have or some listing they may > have. > A few have the word stub in with the asignment. Can anyone tell me the > meaning of this? > Below are the car numbers. Thanks to all who can help in advance. > > Pat McKinney > > PRR 980137 > PRR 980156 > PRR 980242 > PRR 980352 > PRR 980561 > PRR 980792 > PRR 980933 > PRR 981778 > PRR 982160 > PRR 982203 > Pat, I ran this list past my freight car photo index but got no hits. BTW, have been enjoying your station drawing book again. Is one of the waiting rooms (Butler Jct on the Conemaugh Div) really labelled "foreigner's waiting room"? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a6.33c55c30.2b782c37_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/9/03 8:00:32 AM Eastern Standard=20= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 8
   Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:43:21 EST
   From: PKMac101@aol.com
Subject: N6b cabin car HELP.Offset or Centered cupolas

List.
       I am looking for help in determining wh= ich of the following car
numbers I want
to use for my N6b. These are all Pittsburgh Div cabins. I have their assigne= d
locations but do not know if the car has a centered cupola or an offset
cupola. This I need to determine which way I want the cupola.Can anyone help=
in determining this from pictures they may have or some listing they may have.
   A few have the word stub in with the asignment. Can anyone tell= me the
meaning of this?
   Below are the car numbers. Thanks to all who can help in advanc= e.

Pat McKinney

PRR 980137
PRR 980156
PRR 980242
PRR 980352
PRR 980561
PRR 980792
PRR 980933
PRR 981778
PRR 982160
PRR 982203


Pat, I ran this list past my freight car photo index but got no hits.

BTW, have been enjoying your station drawing book again.  Is one of the= waiting rooms (Butler Jct on the Conemaugh Div) really labelled "foreigner'= s waiting room"?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_a6.33c55c30.2b782c37_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:20:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Foam Insulation class G39's Also whilst cruising further into the CGs I found another caption on page 70 of CG-2 about another recent subject - the use of foam insulation on hoppers and gons. The caption indicates foam was applied to H39 277299 (in photo) and a G39 ore jenny during 1962. It goes on to say that 110 class G39A cars were sprayed with foam in 1962, with an additional eight in 1965, and two class H43 were sprayed in 1965. The foam was effective but would crack and peel off and was determined that the benefits did not warrant the cost. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 17:18:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s List, In the business of Model Railroad Manufacturing, what is the most common reason for the same item to be released by several companies at once, just like the new G38-39's will be, the many F's in the past and others?... Is it Loose Lips, Company Spies, Too Early of an Announcement of a New Item, Just Plain Coincidence or all of the above? One would think if a company knows of a future product from another company, they would avoid the competition and produce something different. I know I would. I think cornering the market on an item would result in a bigger payoff, not sharing an identically released item and battling for the income. If this is to continue, then we need some company to announce, be it true or not, a Plastic Hi-Tech J1, Sharks, The Perfect K4, or anything else PRR not yet released . Once announce it is a given we would see 3-4 companies release them within days of each other. Just my little gripe I know that is shared by many....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:20:18 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Foam Insulation class G39's Also whilst cruising further into the CGs I found another caption on page 70 of CG-2 about another recent subject - the use of foam insulation on hoppers and gons. The caption indicates foam was applied to H39 277299 (in photo) and a G39 ore jenny during 1962. It goes on to say that 110 class G39A cars were sprayed with foam in 1962, with an additional eight in 1965, and two class H43 were sprayed in 1965. The foam was effective but would crack and peel off and was determined that the benefits did not warrant the cost. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:50:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Three Dome Tank Cars (class TM8B) Norm Bell earlier today (or yesterday) was inquiring about PRR three dome tank cars. See page 126 of PCG-1 for a photo of class TM8B 498748. The two outboard domes appear to be smaller than the center dome. See also Rich Burg's article in "Keystone" V17-N1 (Spring 1984) in which he states that the cars were acquired in 1952 (after WW II) from the Ozark Oil Line (OZKX). There were other previous owners before Ozark. Rich indicates the number of cars was perhaps less than 10 and as few as four. Numbers in the article include 498745, 498746, 498748 and 498751. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:54:16 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] PRR Three Dome Tank Cars (class TM8B) Sorry, that was friend Earl Myers, not friend Norm Bell who inquired about the three dome tankers. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:50:01 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRR Three Dome Tank Cars (class TM8B) Norm Bell earlier today (or yesterday) was inquiring about PRR three dome tank cars. See page 126 of PCG-1 for a photo of class TM8B 498748. The two outboard domes appear to be smaller than the center dome. See also Rich Burg's article in "Keystone" V17-N1 (Spring 1984) in which he states that the cars were acquired in 1952 (after WW II) from the Ozark Oil Line (OZKX). There were other previous owners before Ozark. Rich indicates the number of cars was perhaps less than 10 and as few as four. Numbers in the article include 498745, 498746, 498748 and 498751. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:54:16 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] PRR Three Dome Tank Cars (class TM8B) Sorry, that was friend Earl Myers, not friend Norm Bell who inquired about the three dome tankers. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Power smoke collectors? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:29:32 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 7 Feb, Andy Cich wrote: > I recently purchased a large photo collection from the PRR Chicago Publicity > Department files. In this collection, there are several photos taken at the > Chicago 55th St. enginehouse. Along the engine ready tracks are several > devices that look like water spouts, but I have been told these are smoke > collectors. They look like they swing over the stack on an engine. > However, in the photos, none are in use. The engine beside them is smoking > away. I might guess that these weren't for capturing the smoke, but rather for creating a smokebox draft while lighting the loco fire. I believe that some steamers had a fan for this, but I don't know which ones. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Power smoke collectors? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:07:52 -0700 Dennis and all, You might guess but you would be wrong. As Andy mentioned these were smoke collectors. Chicago had very strict anti-smoke ordinances and these were used to allow locomotives to build up steam pressure (a "head" of steam) while at the enginehouse. Engineers at Union Station had to be extremely careful not to let a Chicago smoke inspector catch then in the act of making smoke (as Chicago was the hub of railroading in the US you can imagine how much of a problem smoke was in the steam era). Why were the collectors not in use in Andy's photos? Interesting question. It could be that it was near the end of steam and they were no longer functional, or more interestingly, (remember who you got the pictures from, Andy) it could be a staged photo to illustrate why they were required in the first place. I believe that they were not fan equipped (imagine the damage to a fan blade from the cinders) but piped to a smokestack which had sufficent draft to pull the smoke up. Incidently, no steam locomotive that I know of was equipped with a fan to aid draft...(although some roads used a detachable fan that fit onto the stack to aid in draft). All steam locomotives were equipped with a blower (a steam jet fitted to the exhaust nozzle) to assist in drafting, but it wasn't much help on a cold locomotive if there was no steam pressure. In those cases roundhouse steam would be used to help create a draft. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:29:32 -0500 Dennis Rockwell wrote: > On 7 Feb, Andy Cich wrote: > > > I recently purchased a large photo collection from the > PRR Chicago Publicity > > Department files. In this collection, there are > several photos taken at the > > Chicago 55th St. enginehouse. Along the engine ready > tracks are several > > devices that look like water spouts, but I have been > told these are smoke > > collectors. They look like they swing over the stack > on an engine. > > However, in the photos, none are in use. The engine > beside them is smoking > > away. > > I might guess that these weren't for capturing the smoke, > but rather for creating a smokebox draft while lighting > the > loco fire. I believe that some steamers had a fan for > this, > but I don't know which ones. > > Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:19:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class FGR and FGRA Al said: >A few weeks ago Bruce Smith and I (perhaps some others) were discussion >the class FGR and FGRA conversions to revenue service before work >equipment status. While cruising through PCG-3 today I came across a >caption under a photo of class FGR 497918, on page 118. It states >"During World War 2 when additional flat cars were needed for the >loading of wide military equipment, the sides and ends of 1100 class GR >and GRA composite gondola cars were removed to convert them into class >FGR and FGRA flat cars." In as much as freight car guru Ian Fischer >authored this volume I give the caption a high degree of accuracy. This fits perfectly with the appearance of these cars in the July 1944 ORER FGRA, 470899-471418, 520 cars FGR, 472418-472998, 580 cars Interestingly, there were ~2020 FM flat cars and 1500 F30A flat cars at the same time making the FGR, and FGRA a relatively significant portion of the total pool! >From a modeling point of view, the GRA is pretty close to an FM with side stakes...I wonder how close an FM would be to an FGRA? That is, could one model an FGRA flat by lettering an FM as such? It should work great as a stand in of course. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:33:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Power smoke collectors? In a message dated 2/10/03 9:15:14 AM, billd@gci-net.com writes: << You might guess but you would be wrong. As Andy mentioned these were smoke collectors. Chicago had very strict anti-smoke ordinances and these were used to allow locomotives to build up steam pressure (a "head" of steam) while at the enginehouse. Engineers at Union Station had to be extremely careful not to let a Chicago smoke inspector catch then in the act of making smoke (as Chicago was the hub of railroading in the US you can imagine how much of a problem smoke was in the steam era). >> ************* I may have mentioned this before, but there are cases in the 1st Div, NRAB decisions of PRR engineers being disciplined for "making excessive smoke." I have not been able to locate a library that has this material and found recently that the NRAB (located in Chicago) actually stopped publishing its labor awards in book form in 1972. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:04:54 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Class FGR and FGRA Bruce sez> "From a modeling point of view, the GRA is pretty close to an FM with side stakes...I wonder how close an FM would be to an FGRA? That is, could one model an FGRA flat by lettering an FM as such? It should work great as a stand in of course." Check out the PCG-3 pg 118 photo as that class FGR has 12 pockets for side stakes as does the class FM. However, the pocket spacing appears to be different, most likely to accommodate the different rivet patterns. >From the equipment diagrams, the lengths of the class FM and FGR are identical. However, the width of the class FM wood floor is 9'-0", whilst the class FGR is 9'-4." Over stake pocket widths also vary with the class FM at 9'-11 1/2" and the class FGR at 10'-2 3/4". The deck heights vary slightly w/ the class FM at 3'-10 3/4" and the class FGR at 3'-10 3/8." As an interesting aside the class FGRA cars had 13 side stake pockets. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Bachman Diner and class BD85 --0-162641662-1044901885=:88533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My passenger car questions for the day: 1. The Bachman diner is a model of a D78C, correct? However, the interior arrangement as supplied by Bachman does not correspond to any interior plans I have seen of PRR D78C diners. Is this something I've missed, or is the Bachman interior merely a fantasy? Also, the Bachman car has the word "DINER" centered on the car. I have never seen a picture of a PRR D78C lettered "DINER". Once again, is this a stretch by Bachman or is there photographic proof that car 8016 was lettered "DINER"? Finally, any ideas on an easy way to remove the "DINER" lettering without damaging the rest of the paint on the car? I've heard of using isopropyl alcohol or art gum erasers but don't want to risk ruining the finish if someone has a better suggestion. Thanks. 2. PRR had four class BD85 baggage/dormitory cars, nos. 6691-6694. Anyone know to what trains these were assigned and if there are any photos available online? I know these were later renumbered and converted to other use, but I am interested in their initial use. Have some left over hacked up AHM bodies that may be useful as these cars appear to have only a few doors and windows. Thanks again. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-162641662-1044901885=:88533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

My  passenger car questions for the day:

     1.  The Bachman diner is a model of a D78C, correct?   However, the interior arrangement as supplied by Bachman does not correspond to any interior plans I have seen of PRR D78C diners.  Is this something I've missed, or is the Bachman interior merely a fantasy?  Also, the Bachman car has the word "DINER" centered on the car.  I have never seen a picture of a PRR D78C lettered "DINER".  Once again, is this a stretch by Bachman or is there photographic proof that car 8016 was lettered "DINER"?  Finally, any ideas on an easy way to remove the "DINER" lettering without damaging the rest of the paint on the car?  I've heard of using isopropyl alcohol or art gum erasers but don't want to risk ruining the finish if someone has a better suggestion.  Thanks.

     2.  PRR had four class BD85 baggage/dormitory cars, nos. 6691-6694.  Anyone know to what trains these were assigned and if there are any photos available online?  I know these were later renumbered and converted to other use, but I am interested in their initial use.  Have some left over hacked up AHM bodies that may be useful as these cars appear to have only a few doors and windows.  Thanks again.  Ron




Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-162641662-1044901885=:88533-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Bachman Diner and class BD85 My passenger car questions for the day: 1. The Bachman diner is a model of a D78C, correct? However, the interior arrangement as supplied by Bachman does not correspond to any interior plans I have seen of PRR D78C diners. Is this something I've missed, or is the Bachman interior merely a fantasy? Also, the Bachman car has the word "DINER" centered on the car. I have never seen a picture of a PRR D78C lettered "DINER". Once again, is this a stretch by Bachman or is there photographic proof that car 8016 was lettered "DINER"? Finally, any ideas on an easy way to remove the "DINER" lettering without damaging the rest of the paint on the car? I've heard of using isopropyl alcohol or art gum erasers but don't want to risk ruining the finish if someone has a better suggestion. Thanks. 2. PRR had four class BD85 baggage/dormitory cars, nos. 6691-6694. Anyone know to what trains these were assigned and if there are any photos available online? I know these were later renumbered and converted to other use, but I am interested in their initial use. Have some left over hacked up AHM bodies that may be useful as these cars appear to have only a few doors and windows. Thanks again. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:22:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Penn Station NY Film I've mentioned that I had an office in the old Penn Station in NYC. Over the years, I've seen interior shots of the great halls. Last night, I just happened to click through in time to catch the very begining of a 1955 flic, "The Seven Year Itch," and there was the inside of Penn Station. Are there any commercially available videos(disks) of old PRR film, especially, Penn Station in NYC? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:44:03 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Class FGR and FGRA AL and Bruce, I believe the old old TYCO/Mantua 40-foot flat car comes extremely close to this car. It is the car with the solid metal underframe. THe stake pockets match the drawings as doe the rest of the car to the drawings that showed up in RMC some years back. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:14:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner and class BD85 In a message dated 2/10/03 12:43:11 PM Central Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << PRR had four class BD85 baggage/dormitory cars, nos. 6691-6694. Anyone know to what trains these were assigned and if there are any photos available online? >> Two were assigned to the Broadway before the arrival of the 2-unit kitchen-domitory/diner combinations. I have seen at least one photo and one or two video shots. Can't tell you offhand the sources. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:21:25 -0600 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Polly Scale Paint Re the question on curdled paint, I have had a similar problem with Polly Scale paint, wherein it plugs up the suction to the airbrush after prolonged spraying. There was a thread on this topic a few weeks ago, wherein it was pointed out that the new Badger 200-20 with its redesigned nozzle is better with acrylics than the older Badger 200 (which I have). I never thought about changing the thinner, but will try distilled water and report back. chuck Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:39:53 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] BOOKS FOR SALE I have (3) books FOR SALE: (1) Hard-Cover of PENN CENTRAL BI-ANNUAL by Robert Reid, Editor of the PC RAILROADER. It covers the PRR, NYC, NH & PC up thru June 1, 1973. (2) Soft-Cover of CONRAIL POWER 1 (1976) published by the PC RAILROADER/RAIL NORTHEAST. Covers power till April 21, 1976. (3) Soft-Cover of CONRAIL POWER 2. Covers the CR power thru 1977. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:09:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman Diner and class BD85 --part1_1df.1a40a08.2b79b569_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Bachmann dining car is indeed a PRR D78C and the interior is a passable representation of the actual interior, although there are a couple of discrepancies. The most notable appears to be the pair of tables that are third back from the kitchen and then the pair of tables that should be in the sixth place from the kitchen. The rest of the interior seems okay. Here is a link to PRR diner floorplans: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= Although I haven't come across any photos of dining cars with the word "DINER" painted mid-car on the sides, I do have pictures of several coach and cafe-coach cars that were painted in this way. The paint scheme is dated between 1937 and 1945, and I believe it was considered 'experimental'. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1df.1a40a08.2b79b569_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Bachmann dining car is indeed a PRR D78C and the i= nterior is a passable representation of the actual interior, although there=20= are a couple of discrepancies.  The most notable appears to be the pair= of tables that are third back from the kitchen and then the pair of tables=20= that should be in the sixth place from the kitchen.  The rest of the in= terior seems okay.  Here is a link to PRR diner floorplans:

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=3Ddin&sz= =3Dsm&fr=3D

Although I haven't come across any photos of dining cars with the word "DINE= R" painted mid-car on the sides, I do have pictures of several coach and caf= e-coach cars that were painted in this way.  The paint scheme is dated=20= between 1937 and 1945, and I believe it was considered 'experimental'.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1df.1a40a08.2b79b569_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:47:37 -0500 From: davep Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: [transport-communications] Monday, February 10, 2003] ============================================ 2) New York Terminal A Traffic Minefield No room for error at Penn Station. Link to story in The Star-Ledger (Newark, New Jersey): http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-3/10447759449820.xml ============================================= The Transportation Communications Newsletter is published electronically Monday through Friday. For a free subscription please send an e-mail message to: transport-communications-subscribe@yahoogroups.com To unsubscribe please send a message to: transport-communications-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com You may read previous editions of the newsletter, and even do a simple search, by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transport-communications/messages or http://www.itsportal.com/article/archive/2/ Questions, comments about the Transportation Communications Newsletter? Please write the editor, Bernie Wagenblast, at i95berniew@aol.com © 2003 4464 ================================================================= best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:30:12 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] [Fwd: [transport-communications] Monday, February 10, "Transportation officials said directing traffic through the busiest railroad station in the nation is much more complicated than commuters appreciate, with 982 trains per weekday from three railroads using 21 tracks and only six tunnels under the Hudson and East rivers." We blew it up in 1963 and it's still the "busiest railroad station in the nation". That speaks volumes in itself. davep wrote: > > ============================================ > 2) New York Terminal A Traffic Minefield > No room for error at Penn Station. > Link to story in The Star-Ledger (Newark, New Jersey): > http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-3/10447759449820.xml > > ============================================= > The Transportation Communications Newsletter is published > electronically Monday through Friday. > > For a free subscription please send an e-mail message to: > transport-communications-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > To unsubscribe please send a message to: > transport-communications-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > You may read previous editions of the newsletter, and even do a simple > search, by going to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transport-communications/messages or > http://www.itsportal.com/article/archive/2/ > > Questions, comments about the Transportation Communications Newsletter? > Please write the editor, > Bernie Wagenblast, at i95berniew@aol.com > © 2003 4464 > ================================================================= > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:56:57 -0500 (EST) From: Will Semanchuk-Enser Subject: [PRR] (OT)(totalcsx) Be on the lookout: Strasburg RR Robbed (fwd) While NOT PRR related...this is something that everyone should be on the lookout for!!! Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:09:48 EST From: MJRyan13@aol.com Reply-To: totalcsx@lists.railfan.net To: totalcsx@lists.railfan.net Subject: (totalcsx) Be on the lookout: Strasburg RR Robbed >From the Anthracite List: "Last night, thieves forcibly broke in at the Strasburg Rail Road's engine house, and took the following items: The number plates from engines #31, #90, #475. Classification lights from engines #31, and #89. 1 new classification light. 6 rear end marker lamps, 4 kerosene, and 2 converted to battery operation. 1 photograph of engine #89 on the Green Mountain. Side view with specifications. 1 Strasburg Rail Road rule book. Red loose leaf format. 1 Small (about ½ normal size) locomotive brass bell and yoke. 1 ICC steam locomotive defect chart. They also forced open (and destroyed in the process) a steel door to the back shop, but we haven't spotted anything missing from in there yet. It appears that there were two perpetrators in that they left many footprints and tire tracks in the snow. Pennsylvania State Police are investigating. They seemed to have a specific "shopping list" in that they took only railfan collectibles, and only specific ones at that. We at the Strasburg Rail Road ask for the help of the community to return our property to us, and to bring these criminals to justice. If anyone has any information, please call the Strasburg Rail Road at 717-687-8421 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: FW: [PRR] (OT)(totalcsx) Be on the lookout: Strasburg RR Robbed Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:02:30 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D1EF.5CB06C10 Content-Type: text/plain That, is truly awful. The Stratsburg museum goes to great pains to maintain it's PRR locomotive collection. Get the rope out for these guys Kenny This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D1EF.5CB06C10 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: [PRR] (OT)(totalcsx) Be on the lookout: Strasburg RR Robbed = (fwd)

That, is truly awful.
The Stratsburg museum goes to great pains to = maintain it's PRR locomotive collection.
Get the rope out for these guys

Kenny


This message uses a character set that is not = supported by the Internet Service.  To view the original message = content,  open the attached message. If the text doesn't display = correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer = that can display the original character set.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D1EF.5CB06C10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:43:58 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: RE: [PRR] Power smoke collectors? Bill Daniels said: > I believe that they were >not fan equipped (imagine the damage to a fan blade from >the cinders) but piped to a smokestack which had sufficent >draft to pull the smoke up. But see this note from the Crestline Roundhouse restoration site : http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/mstack.2001.jpg.html Which indicates that a fan was used, at least at Crestline Also see the photo of the H9 under the smokejack on the same site: http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/H-9.jpg.html This is not to say that the Chicago ones must have also used a fan, but it seems likely. Neat website about the Crestline Enginehouse. Tom Hayden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:27:34 -0500 From: Don LaPlante Subject: [PRR] PRR COLORS I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST AND AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. THERE IS THE TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON PASSENGER ENGINES BUT THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:47:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS From: Jerry Britton On 2/11/03 2:27 PM, Don LaPlante (dlaplante@ll.mit.edu) wrote: > I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST AND > AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. THERE IS THE > TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON PASSENGER ENGINES BUT > THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND > ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK > GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? > Geez, okay, it's been awhile!!! You can check the list archives for your answer... What you are seeing as Black or Brunswich Green is "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel". It's like taking a 55 gallon drum of black and adding a gallon or two of green. Any models that look black, are too black. Those that look green, aren't black enough. Many will agree that the best color match done to date -- with credit to Greg Martin -- are the Athearn Genesis F7 units that were done a few years back. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:08:08 -0500 Don, The correct color is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE), sometimes called Brunswick Green. When I worked for the PRR, I was told that DGLE was one pint of Forest Green in ten gallons of black paint! To me, it looks black until it's parked next to something that is black - like an NYC unit right after the merger! Everyone has their own choice of model colors, but I like the Scalecoat II PRR Brunswick Green myself. Gregg Mahlkov PS: Using all caps makes it hard to read your messages. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don LaPlante" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR COLORS > I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST AND > AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. THERE IS THE > TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON PASSENGER ENGINES BUT > THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND > ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK > GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:11:05 +0000 Glad you didn't ask about steam! That is the most frequently asked question of the historical society from what I have heard. The best representation of DGLE (dark green locomotive enamel) in my opinion is the Lifelike Proto 200 series of engines. Brunswick Green is not the correct name but was started by one of the paint manufacturers many years ago and has seemed to stick in spite of the society's efforts to get us to change. The caveat in color however is how old the engine is and when it was last painted. Most of the fleet oxidized to a lighter shade that is darker than the Athearn green but not as black as when first applied. They also got washed infrequently and had a layer of road dust on most cases that gave a dusty dark green color. Your best bet is to check some of the color pictures either in books or on the internet of all PRR diesels and motors to note how long after the engine was new to determine the degree of piant color you will need to duplicate. Some passenger engines ( a couple of FP7's I think, the Baldwin BP20's, and I think the Baldwin BP60's were Tuscan red initially. The Alco PA's were originally DGLE with gold striping and lettering and were converted to Tuscan and five buff stripes and then some were converted back to DGLE with a single stripe when they became freight engines. You may want to check that last staement before taking it as gospel however. Color drift cards are or were available from the society that have the correct colors for matching to paint samples. Norm Bell > I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST AND > AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. THERE IS THE > TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON PASSENGER ENGINES BUT > THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND > ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK > GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:32:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Strasburg RR Theft --part1_185.16be3c88.2b7ab7e2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First, my apologies for the attempts at forwarding this posting. Hopefull= y=20 this will get out. Date: Monday, 10 February 2003, at 1:58 p.m. "Last night, thieves forcibly broke in at the Strasburg Rail Road's engine house, and took the following items: The number plates from engines #31, #90, #475. Classification lights from engines #31, and #89. 1 new classification light. 6 rear end marker lamps, 4 kerosene, and 2 converted to battery operation. 1 photograph of engine #89 on the Green Mountain. Side view with specifications. 1 Strasburg Rail Road rule book. Red loose leaf format. 1 Small (about =BD normal size) locomotive brass bell and yoke. 1 Interstate Commerce Commision steam locomotive defect chart. They also forced open (and destroyed in the process) a steel door to the back shop, but we haven't spotted anything missing from in there yet. It appears that there were two perpetrators in that they left many footprints and tire tracks in the snow. Pennsylvania State Police are investigating. They seemed to have a specific "shopping list" in that they took only railfan collectibles, and only specific ones at that. We at the Strasburg Rail Road ask for the help of the community to return our property to us, and to bring these criminals to justice. If anyone has any information, please call the Strasburg Rail Road at 717-687-8421." If you see any of these items on eBay or at a railroadiana show, please=20 contact the railroad or PA State police. Posted By: Kelly Thank you, Evan Leisey --part1_185.16be3c88.2b7ab7e2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   First, my apologies for the attempts at forward= ing this posting.  Hopefully this will get out.

Date: Monday, 10 February 2003, at 1:58 p.m.

"Last night, thieves forcibly broke in at the Strasburg Rail Road's
engine house, and took the following items:

The number plates from engines #31, #90, #475.
Classification lights from engines #31, and #89.
1 new classification light.
6 rear end marker lamps, 4 kerosene, and 2 converted to battery
operation. 1 photograph of engine #89 on the Green Mountain. Side view
with specifications. 1 Strasburg Rail Road rule book. Red loose leaf
format. 1 Small (about =BD normal size) locomotive brass bell and yoke. 1 Interstate Commerce Commision steam locomotive defect chart.

They also forced open (and destroyed in the process) a steel door to the
back shop, but we haven't spotted anything missing from in there yet. It
appears that there were two perpetrators in that they left many
footprints and tire tracks in the snow. Pennsylvania State Police are
investigating. They seemed to have a specific "shopping list" in that
they took only railfan collectibles, and only specific ones at that. We
at the Strasburg Rail Road ask for the help of the community to return
our property to us, and to bring these criminals to justice. If anyone
has any information, please call the Strasburg Rail Road at
717-687-8421."

If you see any of these items on eBay or at a railroadiana show, please
contact the railroad or PA State police.

Posted By: Kelly <kelly@strasburgrailroad.com>

Thank you,

Evan Leisey




 --part1_185.16be3c88.2b7ab7e2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Early equipment on the Panhandle --0-136165047-1044996087=:21971 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s? Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted. Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History". Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-136165047-1044996087=:21971 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s?  Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted.  Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History".  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-136165047-1044996087=:21971-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Early equipment on the Panhandle Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s? Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted. Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History". Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:10:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS --part1_5a.17a711a7.2b7ac0cd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/11/03 2:59:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Any models that look black, are too black. Those that look green, aren't > black enough. > > MTH does a great job of this in "O" guage (OK, it's 3 rail) > You'd never guess the locos are green - until you compare the boilers to > the drivers - which ARE black > > RE Ross --part1_5a.17a711a7.2b7ac0cd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/11/0= 3 2:59:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


Any models that look black, are= too black. Those that look green, aren't
black enough.

MTH does a great job of this in "O" guage (OK, it's 3 rail)
You'd never guess the locos are green - until you compare the boilers to the= drivers - which ARE black

RE Ross


 --part1_5a.17a711a7.2b7ac0cd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:16:30 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS Don LaPlante writes: >SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS?< Please... Don't get us started... 3^) Just understand that Dark Green Locomotive Paint is not as green as most manufacturers would have you believe. Brunswick Green/DGLP or DGLE is for all intent and purposes BLACK. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:21:55 -0500 Hi all, Elden Gatwood mailed me a copy of a PRR document from 1966 that calls out "Brunswick Green" and "Tuscan Red" as colors for painting locomotives so the though that Brunswick Green is incorrect because the railroad never called it that seems to be false. It's possible that this was not the official PRR name for the color but it was used at least once in railroad correspondence! The memo itself is kind of interesting, it's painting instructions for renumbering locomotives in preparation for the PC merger. If you want to read it, it's at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_May16_1966.pdf Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > ndbprr@att.net > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:11 PM > To: PRR-Talk; Don LaPlante > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS > > > Glad you didn't ask about steam! That is the most frequently > asked question of > the historical society from what I have heard. The best > representation of DGLE > (dark green locomotive enamel) in my opinion is the Lifelike > Proto 200 series > of engines. Brunswick Green is not the correct name but was > started by one of > the paint manufacturers many years ago and has seemed to stick in > spite of the > society's efforts to get us to change. The caveat in color > however is how old > the engine is and when it was last painted. Most of the fleet > oxidized to a > lighter shade that is darker than the Athearn green but not as > black as when > first applied. They also got washed infrequently and had a layer > of road dust > on most cases that gave a dusty dark green color. Your best bet > is to check > some of the color pictures either in books or on the internet of all PRR > diesels and motors to note how long after the engine was new to > determine the > degree of piant color you will need to duplicate. Some passenger > engines ( a > couple of FP7's I think, the Baldwin BP20's, and I think the > Baldwin BP60's > were Tuscan red initially. The Alco PA's were originally DGLE with gold > striping and lettering and were converted to Tuscan and five buff > stripes and > then some were converted back to DGLE with a single stripe when > they became > freight engines. You may want to check that last staement before > taking it as > gospel however. Color drift cards are or were available from the > society that > have the correct colors for matching to paint samples. Norm Bell > > I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST AND > > AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. THERE IS THE > > TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON PASSENGER ENGINES BUT > > THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND > > ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK > > GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:46:38 -0500 My memory ain't what it used to be, but if my recollection is correct, DuPont called the stuff Brunswick Green on the can the stuff came out of. Could be wrong on that but I did give out numerous babyfood jars of the stuff over the years, just to prove it waaan't black! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Rob Schoenberg Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 4:22 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS Hi all, Elden Gatwood mailed me a copy of a PRR document from 1966 that calls out "Brunswick Green" and "Tuscan Red" as colors for painting locomotives so the though that Brunswick Green is incorrect because the railroad never called it that seems to be false. It's possible that this was not the official PRR name for the color but it was used at least once in railroad correspondence! The memo itself is kind of interesting, it's painting instructions for renumbering locomotives in preparation for the PC merger. If you want to read it, it's at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_May16_1966.p df Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > ndbprr@att.net > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:11 PM > To: PRR-Talk; Don LaPlante > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS > > > Glad you didn't ask about steam! That is the most frequently asked > question of the historical society from what I have heard. The best > representation of DGLE > (dark green locomotive enamel) in my opinion is the Lifelike > Proto 200 series > of engines. Brunswick Green is not the correct name but was > started by one of > the paint manufacturers many years ago and has seemed to stick in > spite of the > society's efforts to get us to change. The caveat in color > however is how old > the engine is and when it was last painted. Most of the fleet > oxidized to a > lighter shade that is darker than the Athearn green but not as > black as when > first applied. They also got washed infrequently and had a layer > of road dust > on most cases that gave a dusty dark green color. Your best bet > is to check > some of the color pictures either in books or on the internet of all PRR > diesels and motors to note how long after the engine was new to > determine the > degree of piant color you will need to duplicate. Some passenger > engines ( a > couple of FP7's I think, the Baldwin BP20's, and I think the > Baldwin BP60's > were Tuscan red initially. The Alco PA's were originally DGLE with gold > striping and lettering and were converted to Tuscan and five buff > stripes and > then some were converted back to DGLE with a single stripe when > they became > freight engines. You may want to check that last staement before > taking it as > gospel however. Color drift cards are or were available from the > society that > have the correct colors for matching to paint samples. Norm Bell > > I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST > > AND AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. > > THERE IS THE TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON > > PASSENGER ENGINES BUT THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN > > THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS > > SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE > > HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:16:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS In a message dated 2/11/03 3:31:43 PM, robs@actel.com writes: << The memo itself is kind of interesting, it's painting instructions for renumbering locomotives in preparation for the PC merger. If you want to read it, it's at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_May16_1966.pd >> Great memo! It reminds me of one of the Pennsy conventions that used to drive me crazy. All internal correspondence was addressed by the three initials of the recipient, first, middle and last. I never used my middle initial so I was shown with only two initials. This convention made it very difficult to "see" who was included in an older memo. Department designators weren't used, only the top guy's initials. Here, I believe "G.C.V." is G.C. Vaughn, and "H.C.K." is Herman C. Kohout who were regional (?) operating vice presidents. When we get down to the cc's, I don't recognize a single person. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] PRR Colors- CONFESSION and the TIP Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:19:56 +0000 Listers: First the Confession: When I started to model PRR engines in 1982, I did not use brunswick green. I had no idea that these engines were painted this color; they looked "black" to me. Hence, my Athearn SD-45, SW-8, SD-9, Trainmaster, an Altas SD-35, and a Life Like C-628 were all painted Testors flat black. It was not for another 2 years until I found out my oversight. However, there is good news to report. I applied a moderate amount of weathering to these units, concentrating on track color and a grayish road dust. In looking at the color photographs in the Pennsy Diesel Years series, I observed that make PRR diesels took on a variety of colors. Subject to the amount of weathering and the lighting that the photo was taken, PRR diesels looked black accented with shades of gray, brown, green, and even blue. Since my models took on shades of both gray and brown, I was in the clear.....I dodged a MAJOR modelling bullet! Now for the Tip: Many modelers including me, believe that the P2K DGLE is too green. Instead of repainting the unit and starting over, two options are available to the model. First, you can just weather the engine. The green shade of the engine would almost require a moderate to heavy amount of weathering to past off the engine as an authentic color. The next option is to apply a gloss coat to the body shell. Most of the P2K painted shells have a dull finish. A gloss coat yields not only a "wet" look, but it also darkens the base color on the engine. I have done this technique on both of my P2K PRR SD-7 and SD-9 with interesting results. When compared before and after, the gloss coat makes the color look darker. It does not eliminate the green in the paint but rather brings the black out more than before. After the gloss coat is applied, the then add any additional detail parts such as antennas, etc. I am currently in the process of finding an off-the-shelf paint that will closely match the gloss-coated P2K brunswick green. I looks like a matching paint may either be Accuflex or Polly S paint. After, the additional detail parts are painted, weathering and a finish coat can be applied. This second technique may not produce the exact shade of DGLE, but it is IMHO, closer than the out-of-box color of a P2K PRR unit. Has anyone else done the above mentioned technique with similar results? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nathan Clark" Subject: Re:[PRR] PRR COLORS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:28:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2D1F2.FA672630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey all, I am new at this so please bare with me. I just wanted to correct the = address that was just sent out It should be = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_May16_1966.pd= f Hope this makes it to all and everyone can read it. Hope to add more to = this wonderful list and keep up the good work. Thanks, Nate=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2D1F2.FA672630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey all,
   I am new at this so please = bare with=20 me. I just wanted to correct the address that was just sent = out
 
It should be http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_Ma= y16_1966.pdf

Hope this makes it to all and everyone can read it. Hope to add = more to=20 this wonderful list and keep up the good work. Thanks,
Nate
------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2D1F2.FA672630-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:35:20 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR COLORS --part1_175.163f23bf.2b7ad4a8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an Ohio boy, I could never figure out "Dulux" gold - NOT Delux - It seemed that it was just the designator between real gold and gold paint. The dawn finally came some years ago when "Dulux" paint company bought out Sherwin-Williams. "Dulux" was the Manufacturer of the "gold" paint specified. RR --part1_175.163f23bf.2b7ad4a8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an Ohio boy, I could n= ever figure out "Dulux" gold - NOT Delux - It seemed that it was just= the designator between real gold and gold paint.
The dawn finally came some years ago when "Dulux" paint company bought out S= herwin-Williams. "Dulux" was the Manufacturer of the "gold" paint specified.=

RR --part1_175.163f23bf.2b7ad4a8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:07:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Baldwin VO-1000 --part1_a2.335ba389.2b7aea55_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope to buy an Atlas n scale Baldwin VO-1000 switcher (undecorated as no PRR version is yet available). Question, there are two models one with step guards and one without. Which would be more correct for the PRR? Al --part1_a2.335ba389.2b7aea55_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope to buy an Atlas n scale Baldwin VO-100= 0 switcher (undecorated as no PRR version is yet available). Question, there= are two models one with step guards and one without. Which would be more co= rrect for the PRR?

Al --part1_a2.335ba389.2b7aea55_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Fw: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:57:30 -0500 > Barry, > > I'm modeling the same area and era, but my interest is in the Reading. But, > in order to model the Beltline South, ( the area we're both interested in ) > I have to include the Pennsy, since they had switching rights along this > portion of the waterfront. The reading would drop off blocks of cars for the > Pennsy to switch. I have a photo of Delaware ave with 44 tonner on it > and some Sandborn maps of the area, and there was an article in the Highline > about the Penny's operations on the waterfront. I don't know if this would > be helpful but let me know. I also belong to retired Reading employees > association and they may have some useful information. > > Regards, > > Dick Foley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bud Kaiser [mailto:bkaiser@voicenet.com] > Sent: 08 February 2003 22:01 > To: Foley, Dick > Subject: Fw: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal > > > Dick, > > Can you help the guy? > > Bud > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:56 AM > Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal > > > > Folks, > > I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & > Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book > that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of > photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text > states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. > > Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of > that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight > station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated > line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' > around Norris Street would be of great interest. > > I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such > info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most > helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, > but a place that has some special affection for me. > > Thanks for your time, and regards, > > Barry Peltier > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:05:41 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin VO-1000 From: "Jerry @ PRR" On Tuesday, February 11, 2003, at 04:07 PM, ALGUCKES@aol.com wrote: > I hope to buy an Atlas n scale Baldwin VO-1000 switcher (undecorated > as no PRR version is yet available). Question, there are two models > one with step guards and one without. Which would be more correct for > the PRR? Either, actually! I've been pushing Atlas to do PRR version(s) of the VO-1000 in N scale. I'm pretty confident they'll be included in the second run, which I expect to be announced in the next few weeks, so you may want to hold off on that purchase. Anyway, the PRR had 8 VO-1000's. Some with and some without step guards. Some with one stack, some with four stacks. One painted Tuscan Red. I gathered all the info and put it into a web page for Atlas (and others) to reference. It includes references to published photos as well. Enjoy... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/pleasemake_bs10.ws4d ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:11:52 -0500 Marty, The "man in the middle", G.M.S., is (G.) Mort(imer) Smith, GM of the Central Region, Pittsburgh, George Vaughn was GM, Eastern Region, and Herman Kohout was GM, Western Region. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS > > In a message dated 2/11/03 3:31:43 PM, robs@actel.com writes: > > << > > The memo itself is kind of interesting, it's painting instructions for > > renumbering > > locomotives in preparation for the PC merger. If you want to read it, it's > > at: > > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_Painting_Merger_Renumber_May16_1966.pd >> > > > > Great memo! It reminds me of one of the Pennsy conventions that used to drive > me crazy. > > All internal correspondence was addressed by the three initials of the > recipient, first, middle and last. I never used my middle initial so I was > shown with only two initials. This convention made it very difficult to "see" > who was included in an older memo. Department designators weren't used, only > the top guy's initials. > > Here, I believe "G.C.V." is G.C. Vaughn, and "H.C.K." is Herman C. Kohout who > were regional (?) operating vice presidents. When we get down to the cc's, I > don't recognize a single person. > > > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:46:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: roundhouse blower room In a message dated 2/10/03 11:39:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Hopefully in one of my last emails I included a plan of the Canton > roundhouse showing that "smoke blower room". > My brain says you (?) were asking about this system??? > Earl Myers > Yes, Earl -- several people have been asking about smoke collection systems. If Canton had one (and I noticed it on the plan you sent, snuggled up against the back wall), we might wonder if Crestline had one. And text in Trostel's Bradford tells about the fan building for the 1918 house there (and it's visible in one of the photos). Question -- if I had my Crestline photos here, would I find the stack hoods have a huge oval section at the bottom edge - kind of like a commercial range hood grown to giant size? Or am I thinking of somewhere else I once was? Other discussion shows that 55th Street Chicago had big fixtures that were set down over stacks and piped the smoke underground to a tall-draft stack. This is different because the photo being circulated is outside, and shows trackside fixtures like mad giant standpipes. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:46:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: roundhouse blower room --part1_1d3.25ef5e7.2b7b0f6f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/03 11:39:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Hopefully in one of my last emails I included a plan of the Canton > roundhouse showing that "smoke blower room". > My brain says you (?) were asking about this system??? > Earl Myers > Yes, Earl -- several people have been asking about smoke collection systems. If Canton had one (and I noticed it on the plan you sent, snuggled up against the back wall), we might wonder if Crestline had one. And text in Trostel's Bradford tells about the fan building for the 1918 house there (and it's visible in one of the photos). Question -- if I had my Crestline photos here, would I find the stack hoods have a huge oval section at the bottom edge - kind of like a commercial range hood grown to giant size? Or am I thinking of somewhere else I once was? Other discussion shows that 55th Street Chicago had big fixtures that were set down over stacks and piped the smoke underground to a tall-draft stack. This is different because the photo being circulated is outside, and shows trackside fixtures like mad giant standpipes. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1d3.25ef5e7.2b7b0f6f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/10/03 11:39:16 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes:


Rick;
 Hopefully in one of my last= emails I included a plan of the Canton roundhouse showing that "smoke blowe= r room".
My brain says you (?) were a= sking about this system??? Earl Myers


Yes, Earl -- several people have been asking about smoke collection systems.=   If Canton had one (and I noticed it on the plan you sent, snuggled up= against the back wall), we might wonder if Crestline had one.  And tex= t in Trostel's Bradford
tells about the fan building for the 1918 house there (and it's visible=20= in one of the photos).

Question -- if I had my Crestline photos here, would I find the stack hoods=20= have a huge oval section at the bottom edge - kind of like a commercial rang= e hood grown to giant size?  Or am I thinking of somewhere else I once=20= was?

Other discussion shows that 55th Street Chicago had big fixtures that were s= et down over stacks and piped the smoke underground to a tall-draft stack.&n= bsp; This is different because the photo being circulated is outside, and sh= ows trackside fixtures like mad giant standpipes.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1d3.25ef5e7.2b7b0f6f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:58:25 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] Brunswick Green Dear Group, I recall reading in Karl Zimmerman's "The Remarkable GG1" that PRR Brunswick Green was approximately 7 parts black to 1 part green. As was mentioned in previous posts, the "gold" pinstripes were Dupont Dulux gold. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:06:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS In a message dated 2/11/03 2:23:05 PM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << the Baldwin BP20's, and I think the Baldwin BP60's were Tuscan red initially. >> Norm, so as not to leave this without amplification or correction, the Baldwin BP20's were delivered in Deluxe Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) 5 stripe gold leaf pinstriping terminating behind the cab with a Keystone. Catswhisker 5-striping to the nose was soon added. They were painted in 5-stripe buff on tuscan with drawing of 8-11-52. In mid-1956 drawing a single broad buff stripe replaced the 5-stripes. The BP60s never appeared in tuscan. Delivered in gold leaf 5-stripe on DGLE and changed to single stripe on DGLE when regeared for freight service (someone can chime in with the date). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:10:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS In a message dated 2/11/03 1:59:54 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Many will agree that the best color match done to date -- with credit to Greg Martin -- are the Athearn Genesis F7 units that were done a few years back. >> Excellent work, but give credit to Stewart for coming VERY close a decade earlier on their F-units. However, the Athearn unit with Greg's direction has the most accurate striping ever, color and dimensions. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:27:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > << the Baldwin BP20's, and I think the Baldwin BP60's > were Tuscan red initially. >> > > Norm, so as not to leave this without amplification or correction, the > Baldwin BP20's were delivered in Deluxe Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) 5 "Dark" Green. One correction deserves another. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:41:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS In a message dated 2/11/03 10:33:29 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << Dark" Green. One correction deserves another. >> Yup, like mixing metaphors, mixed color nomenclature :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Re: roundhouse blower room Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:25:26 -0500 Rick; Crestline had those blower systems too. Those big indoor "hoods" are still in there! I have been all over that roundhouse as recently as a year ago. This roundhouse is well out in the country so I don't think they had the "outdoor" smoke collectors. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: roundhouse blower room > In a message dated 2/10/03 11:39:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, > emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > > > > Rick; > > Hopefully in one of my last emails I included a plan of the Canton > > roundhouse showing that "smoke blower room". > > My brain says you (?) were asking about this system??? > > Earl Myers > > > > Yes, Earl -- several people have been asking about smoke collection systems. > If Canton had one (and I noticed it on the plan you sent, snuggled up against > the back wall), we might wonder if Crestline had one. And text in Trostel's > Bradford > tells about the fan building for the 1918 house there (and it's visible in > one of the photos). > > Question -- if I had my Crestline photos here, would I find the stack hoods > have a huge oval section at the bottom edge - kind of like a commercial range > hood grown to giant size? Or am I thinking of somewhere else I once was? > > Other discussion shows that 55th Street Chicago had big fixtures that were > set down over stacks and piped the smoke underground to a tall-draft stack. > This is different because the photo being circulated is outside, and shows > trackside fixtures like mad giant standpipes. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:34:27 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Fw: more PRR "1919" roundhouses Hello Ron, Many thanks for your extensive message on roundhouses, especially Crestline. In the interests of brevity I'm going to cite just a few sentences here: In a message dated 2/11/03 8:25:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, r35bl4s@juno.com writes: > > Might I begin with an insight to direct all basic inquires to my good > friend and Crestline PRR historian Bill Ayers (fellow PRRT&HS member) web > site on the PRR Crestline Engine Facility. As you may know, Bills web site > is addressed: > > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > > Many questions will be answered about style, construction, dates and the > like, from actual paper work, if you take the time to study the web site > and the material contained, including window structure, length, viewing > size and width . Bill has spent a lot of time researching archives > pertaining to the Crestline story. His material gathered, is to be > considered the present day correlation of the past history, as he has been > able to ascertain the information. He visited the Hagley Museum in Delaware > to research and found specific material to Crestline. >> > As it happens, I revisited this site just last night. The pictures are great, and I look forward to your planned additions... > > > < same blueprints or designs. It is my understanding that the various > roundhouse styles exist due to the fact of the obvious PRR Regions and > Divisions with their steam engine maintenance and repair needs. What was > needed in certain locations was not needed in other locations. Breaking it > all down and basically, as I see it, the need for engine service began as > roundhouses and in addition to erection facilities with roundhouses, > roundhouses with backshops and roundhouses by themselves, were needed in > specific areas. As demand and traffic grew by leaps and bounds larger > enginehouses and areas were built to accommodate the demand. (1917 is when > the Crestline, Canton, Mingo Junction and other new roundhouse construction > began, larger engines were being made and would not fit into the smaller > houses.) Just as in the growth of engine size grew with the demand for more > freight of faster passenger trains. > > Thus we get into different designs, shapes, structure construction, and > facility needs. As I see it the basic design of roundhouses began at > Altoona and then worked into each Region/Division, meeting each individual > need. As the PRR main traveled the main line from NY to Chicago, the > roundhouse engine service facility sequence may have been as follows: > Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Altoona, Pittsburgh, Canton, Crestline, Ft. Wayne > and then Chicago. > And on the Southern route it had to have been (from Pittsburgh and west) > Pittsburgh, Mingo Junction, Dennison, Columbus, Bradford and Chicago. From > Columbus west and south it had to have been: Cincinnati, Louisville, then > on to St. Louis. Fill in the blanks from here on out, I need a better > understanding of the roundhouse facilities from here. (Pass along the > information and history if you know the facts and documents.) > At any rate. In Ohio, the backshops were Canton and Columbus (in addition > to roundhouses) thus being a approximately mid way point between Pittsburgh > and Chicago.>> My impression from the info Earl and others have been passing me is that between 1915 and 1920, Lines West, which was rostering some bigger power than Lines East at the time (remember the N1?), came up with at least two and possibly three generations of standard roundhouses that got built in the period, replacing earlier houses that went back many years. I must not be alone, as for example the Stark/Canton house has been referred to as the "mirror twin" of Crestline. Part of my buy-in is conditioned by the labeling of the second generation as "Lines West 1919" designs on their blueprints. I'll be the first to admit I don't know what Lines East was doing in this period, but I can say that in all my railfanning in the 1970's, I was struck by the family resemblance of many Lines West structures, and I didn't notice corresponding decoration, etc. on Lines East roundhouses. > > The Ron Widman Window Test is just an observation of size and structure. No > real serious deal here, just common comparisons of size and etc.. Case in > point: The Crestline, Canton/Mingo Junction roundhouse outside wall > curvature held "five sets" of windows in separate frames, per stall, from > left to right. That is to say there are five window sections covering each > engine stall that contained five window pains each per section. Study the > photos of the roundhouse and you will see what I mean. Then you have with > the five individual window pains wide, five sections that make up a engine > stall outside wall which then travels around the roundhouse forming each > engine stall to the end from stalls 1-30. This is how I would look for > similarities in structure framework on the outside. No big deal here, just > looking for likeness and size references. Once I heard about the Widman Test (above), I've been counting panes on outside walls, too. It looks to me like Spruce Street and Bradford both have "six sets" of windows (the end two sets are narrower), and each window opening is 10 panes high. Of course, the tall back wall of each of these stall has a high set of these 60 panes, and another low set, so each stall had a total of 120 panes of glass before accident and vandalism took them out. This supports my suspicion that these houses and probably others were built to a slightly different design that preceded the six "1919" houses (4 built, two cancelled). > > > Again I would reference everyone to Bill Ayers Web site > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > and search through the many building photos to compare differences. > > Soon to be up and running with photos and the like, our, The Crestline > Roundhouse Preservation Society, web site : www.crestlineroundhouse.org > will also contain more Crestline history to study over. (All in due time.) > > When new additions were made in the roundhouses and in certain areas, the > structure did change somewhat in dimension or shape. Some walls were > extended to length and other engine stalls were lengthened which made the > outside walls longer in certain sections (see Crestline on this.)>> Fortunately, the websites "before" and "after" pictures make the additions obvious. > > Ricks e mail of 2/8/03 hit some interesting points regarding shape and > size. The idea of a new numerical system [ examples: 3-2-2 Design > or...2-4-0-16 Design ] to ID roundhouses is interesting. > I think that when Rick mentions the term "bay" he means sections, as in > wall sections > and not to be confused with "engine stalls"....bays........ That's right. I'm conditioned by long-ago work in plant engineering to refer to the length of the windowed curtainwall that spans between two weightbearing posts as a "bay". Since a roundhouse is NOT a rectangular structure, the bays only go in one dimension (from front to back), as the long trapezoids we call "stalls" do not preserve a constant cross-section down the axis of track centerline. > > Dick Jockobs, PRRT&HS member, in Columbus, has some nice shots of the > Columbus Spruce St. Facility, maybe Dick can help here. (Note: See Pennsy > Power I, page #87 for rear shot of Spruce Street, shot from Olentangy tower > looking NE across the Big Four/PRR diamonds.Yes, the photo has to be > mislabeled Canton, Ohio 1935. Right, Earl from Canton???) I'd love for Dick Jacobs to help us out. He's always an incredible fount of information, especially on the world of PRR steam. Walt Stafa (also of Columbus) had to rescue me by tipping me off that the house in PP1 is Spruce Street instead of Canton. The string of N&W hoppers being slammed across the Big Four here make a lot more sense in Columbus than they would in Canton (they're probably headed for Chicago via Logansport). Incidentally, I've just about gone blind trying to see the sidewalls of Spruce Street in videos (esp Clear Block's The Panhandle Vol 4 and 5). I can't see enought to prove that the place is a 2-4-0 roundhouse, although the high back wall makes the '0' obvious enough. But I look forward to more pix... > > < of us so we all can learn more about the Pennsy and "The way it was". > > Till next time when more time is available. > > Ron Widman, Columbus, Ohio. President, Crestline Roundhouse Preservation > Society > > PRR Lines West. >> > I'll remind all once again that my observations about generations of Lines West roundhouses are long on hope and still a good deal shorter on evidence. Please bear with us as we await more pictures and factual data. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:34:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Fw: more PRR "1919" roundhouses --part1_136.1a78f7ef.2b7b9953_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron, Many thanks for your extensive message on roundhouses, especially Crestline. In the interests of brevity I'm going to cite just a few sentences here: In a message dated 2/11/03 8:25:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, r35bl4s@juno.com writes: > > Might I begin with an insight to direct all basic inquires to my good > friend and Crestline PRR historian Bill Ayers (fellow PRRT&HS member) web > site on the PRR Crestline Engine Facility. As you may know, Bills web site > is addressed: > > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > > Many questions will be answered about style, construction, dates and the > like, from actual paper work, if you take the time to study the web site > and the material contained, including window structure, length, viewing > size and width . Bill has spent a lot of time researching archives > pertaining to the Crestline story. His material gathered, is to be > considered the present day correlation of the past history, as he has been > able to ascertain the information. He visited the Hagley Museum in Delaware > to research and found specific material to Crestline. >> > As it happens, I revisited this site just last night. The pictures are great, and I look forward to your planned additions... > > > < same blueprints or designs. It is my understanding that the various > roundhouse styles exist due to the fact of the obvious PRR Regions and > Divisions with their steam engine maintenance and repair needs. What was > needed in certain locations was not needed in other locations. Breaking it > all down and basically, as I see it, the need for engine service began as > roundhouses and in addition to erection facilities with roundhouses, > roundhouses with backshops and roundhouses by themselves, were needed in > specific areas. As demand and traffic grew by leaps and bounds larger > enginehouses and areas were built to accommodate the demand. (1917 is when > the Crestline, Canton, Mingo Junction and other new roundhouse construction > began, larger engines were being made and would not fit into the smaller > houses.) Just as in the growth of engine size grew with the demand for more > freight of faster passenger trains. > > Thus we get into different designs, shapes, structure construction, and > facility needs. As I see it the basic design of roundhouses began at > Altoona and then worked into each Region/Division, meeting each individual > need. As the PRR main traveled the main line from NY to Chicago, the > roundhouse engine service facility sequence may have been as follows: > Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Altoona, Pittsburgh, Canton, Crestline, Ft. Wayne > and then Chicago. > And on the Southern route it had to have been (from Pittsburgh and west) > Pittsburgh, Mingo Junction, Dennison, Columbus, Bradford and Chicago. From > Columbus west and south it had to have been: Cincinnati, Louisville, then > on to St. Louis. Fill in the blanks from here on out, I need a better > understanding of the roundhouse facilities from here. (Pass along the > information and history if you know the facts and documents.) > At any rate. In Ohio, the backshops were Canton and Columbus (in addition > to roundhouses) thus being a approximately mid way point between Pittsburgh > and Chicago.>> My impression from the info Earl and others have been passing me is that between 1915 and 1920, Lines West, which was rostering some bigger power than Lines East at the time (remember the N1?), came up with at least two and possibly three generations of standard roundhouses that got built in the period, replacing earlier houses that went back many years. I must not be alone, as for example the Stark/Canton house has been referred to as the "mirror twin" of Crestline. Part of my buy-in is conditioned by the labeling of the second generation as "Lines West 1919" designs on their blueprints. I'll be the first to admit I don't know what Lines East was doing in this period, but I can say that in all my railfanning in the 1970's, I was struck by the family resemblance of many Lines West structures, and I didn't notice corresponding decoration, etc. on Lines East roundhouses. > > The Ron Widman Window Test is just an observation of size and structure. No > real serious deal here, just common comparisons of size and etc.. Case in > point: The Crestline, Canton/Mingo Junction roundhouse outside wall > curvature held "five sets" of windows in separate frames, per stall, from > left to right. That is to say there are five window sections covering each > engine stall that contained five window pains each per section. Study the > photos of the roundhouse and you will see what I mean. Then you have with > the five individual window pains wide, five sections that make up a engine > stall outside wall which then travels around the roundhouse forming each > engine stall to the end from stalls 1-30. This is how I would look for > similarities in structure framework on the outside. No big deal here, just > looking for likeness and size references. Once I heard about the Widman Test (above), I've been counting panes on outside walls, too. It looks to me like Spruce Street and Bradford both have "six sets" of windows (the end two sets are narrower), and each window opening is 10 panes high. Of course, the tall back wall of each of these stall has a high set of these 60 panes, and another low set, so each stall had a total of 120 panes of glass before accident and vandalism took them out. This supports my suspicion that these houses and probably others were built to a slightly different design that preceded the six "1919" houses (4 built, two cancelled). > > > Again I would reference everyone to Bill Ayers Web site > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > and search through the many building photos to compare differences. > > Soon to be up and running with photos and the like, our, The Crestline > Roundhouse Preservation Society, web site : www.crestlineroundhouse.org > will also contain more Crestline history to study over. (All in due time.) > > When new additions were made in the roundhouses and in certain areas, the > structure did change somewhat in dimension or shape. Some walls were > extended to length and other engine stalls were lengthened which made the > outside walls longer in certain sections (see Crestline on this.)>> Fortunately, the websites "before" and "after" pictures make the additions obvious. > > Ricks e mail of 2/8/03 hit some interesting points regarding shape and > size. The idea of a new numerical system [ examples: 3-2-2 Design > or...2-4-0-16 Design ] to ID roundhouses is interesting. > I think that when Rick mentions the term "bay" he means sections, as in > wall sections > and not to be confused with "engine stalls"....bays........ That's right. I'm conditioned by long-ago work in plant engineering to refer to the length of the windowed curtainwall that spans between two weightbearing posts as a "bay". Since a roundhouse is NOT a rectangular structure, the bays only go in one dimension (from front to back), as the long trapezoids we call "stalls" do not preserve a constant cross-section down the axis of track centerline. > > Dick Jockobs, PRRT&HS member, in Columbus, has some nice shots of the > Columbus Spruce St. Facility, maybe Dick can help here. (Note: See Pennsy > Power I, page #87 for rear shot of Spruce Street, shot from Olentangy tower > looking NE across the Big Four/PRR diamonds.Yes, the photo has to be > mislabeled Canton, Ohio 1935. Right, Earl from Canton???) I'd love for Dick Jacobs to help us out. He's always an incredible fount of information, especially on the world of PRR steam. Walt Stafa (also of Columbus) had to rescue me by tipping me off that the house in PP1 is Spruce Street instead of Canton. The string of N&W hoppers being slammed across the Big Four here make a lot more sense in Columbus than they would in Canton (they're probably headed for Chicago via Logansport). Incidentally, I've just about gone blind trying to see the sidewalls of Spruce Street in videos (esp Clear Block's The Panhandle Vol 4 and 5). I can't see enought to prove that the place is a 2-4-0 roundhouse, although the high back wall makes the '0' obvious enough. But I look forward to more pix... > > < of us so we all can learn more about the Pennsy and "The way it was". > > Till next time when more time is available. > > Ron Widman, Columbus, Ohio. President, Crestline Roundhouse Preservation > Society > > PRR Lines West. >> > I'll remind all once again that my observations about generations of Lines West roundhouses are long on hope and still a good deal shorter on evidence. Please bear with us as we await more pictures and factual data. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_136.1a78f7ef.2b7b9953_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ron,

Many thanks for your extensive message on roundhouses, especially Crestline.=   In the interests of brevity I'm going to cite just a few sentences he= re:

In a message dated 2/11/03 8:25:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, r35bl4s@juno.co= m writes:



Might I begin with an insight to direct all basic inquires to my good friend= and Crestline PRR historian Bill Ayers (fellow PRRT&HS member) web site= on the PRR Crestline Engine Facility.  As you may know, Bills web site= is addressed:

http://crestline.pennsyrr= .com        

Many questions will be answered about style, construction, dates and the lik= e, from actual paper work, if you take the time to study the web site and th= e material contained, including window structure, length, viewing size and w= idth . Bill has spent a lot of time researching archives pertaining to the C= restline story. His material gathered, is to be considered the present day c= orrelation of the past history, as he has been able to ascertain the informa= tion. He visited the Hagley Museum in Delaware to research and found specifi= c material to Crestline. >>


As it happens, I revisited this site just last night.  The pictures are= great, and I look forward to your planned additions...


<<As most of us know by now, not all PRR roundhouses were made by the=20= exact same  blueprints or designs. It is my understanding that the vari= ous roundhouse styles exist due to the fact  of the obvious PRR Regions= and  Divisions with their steam engine maintenance and repair needs. W= hat was needed in certain locations was not needed in other locations. Break= ing it all down and basically, as I see it, the need for engine service bega= n as roundhouses and in addition to erection facilities with roundhouses,&nb= sp; roundhouses with backshops and roundhouses by themselves, were needed in= specific areas.  As demand and traffic grew by leaps and bounds larger= enginehouses and areas were built to accommodate the demand. (1917 is when=20= the Crestline, Canton, Mingo Junction and other new roundhouse construction=20= began, larger engines were being made and would not fit into the smaller hou= ses.) Just as in the growth of engine size grew with the demand for more fre= ight of faster passenger trains.

Thus we get into different designs, shapes, structure construction, and = ; facility needs. As I see it the basic design of roundhouses began at Altoo= na and then worked into each Region/Division, meeting each individual need.=20= As the PRR main traveled the main line from NY to Chicago, the roundhouse en= gine service facility sequence may have been as follows:  Philadelphia,= Harrisburg, Altoona, Pittsburgh, Canton, Crestline, Ft. Wayne and then Chic= ago.
And on the Southern route it had to have been (from Pittsburgh and west) Pit= tsburgh, Mingo Junction, Dennison, Columbus, Bradford and  Chicago. Fro= m Columbus west and south it had to have been: Cincinnati, Louisville, then=20= on to St. Louis. Fill in the blanks from here on out, I need a better unders= tanding of the roundhouse facilities from here. (Pass along the information=20= and history if you know the facts and documents.)
At any rate. In Ohio, the backshops were Canton and Columbus (in addition to= roundhouses) thus being a approximately mid way point between Pittsburgh an= d Chicago.>>

My impression from the info=20= Earl and others have been passing me is that between 1915 and 1920, Lines We= st, which was rostering some bigger power than Lines East at the time (remem= ber the N1?), came up with at least two and possibly three generations of st= andard roundhouses that got built in the period, replacing earlier houses th= at went back many years.  I must not be alone, as for example the Stark= /Canton house has been referred to as the "mirror twin" of Crestline.

Part of my buy-in is conditioned by the labeling of the second generation as= "Lines West 1919" designs on their blueprints.  I'll be the first to a= dmit I don't know what Lines East was doing in this period, but I can say th= at in all my railfanning in the 1970's, I was struck by the family resemblan= ce of many Lines West structures, and I didn't notice corresponding decorati= on, etc. on Lines East roundhouses.



The Ron Widman Window Test is just an observation of size and structure. No=20= real serious deal here, just common comparisons of size and etc.. Case in po= int: The Crestline, Canton/Mingo Junction roundhouse outside wall curvature=20= held "five sets" of windows in separate frames, per stall, from left to righ= t. That is to say there are five window sections covering each engine stall=20= that contained five window pains each per section. Study the photos of th= e roundhouse and you will see what I mean. Then you have with the five i= ndividual window pains wide, five sections that make up a engine stall outsi= de wall which then travels around the roundhouse forming each  engine s= tall to the end from stalls 1-30. This is how I would look for similarities=20= in structure framework on the outside. No big deal here, just looking for li= keness and size references. =


Once I heard about the Widma= n Test (above), I've been counting panes on outside walls, too.  It loo= ks to me like Spruce Street and Bradford both have "six sets" of windows (th= e end two sets are narrower), and each window opening is 10 panes high. = ; Of course, the tall back wall of each of these stall has a high set of the= se 60 panes, and another low set, so each stall had a total of 120 panes of=20= glass before accident and vandalism took them out.

This supports my suspicion that these houses and probably others were built=20= to a slightly different design that preceded the six "1919" houses (4 built,= two cancelled).



Again I would reference everyone to Bill Ayers Web site   http://crestline.pennsyrr.com<= /B>
and search through the many building photos to compare differences.

Soon to be up and running with photos and the like, our, The Crestline Round= house Preservation Society,  web site : www.crestlineroundhouse.org    will also=20= contain more Crestline history to study over. (All in due time.)

When new additions were made in the roundhouses and in certain areas, the st= ructure did change somewhat in dimension or shape. Some walls were extended=20= to length and other engine stalls were lengthened which made the outside wal= ls longer in certain sections (see Crestline on this.)>>


Fortunately, the websites "b= efore" and "after" pictures make the additions obvious.


Ricks e mail of  2/8/03  hit some interesting points regarding sha= pe and size. The idea of a new numerical system [ examples:   3-2-= 2 Design or...2-4-0-16 Design ] to ID roundhouses is interesting.
I think that when Rick mentions the term "bay" he means sections, as in wal= l sections
and not to be confused with "engine stalls"....bays........


That's right.  I'm cond= itioned by long-ago work in plant engineering to refer to the length of the=20= windowed curtainwall that spans between two weightbearing posts as a "bay".&= nbsp; Since a roundhouse is NOT a rectangular structure, the bays only go in= one dimension (from front to back), as the long trapezoids we call "stalls"= do not preserve a constant cross-section down the axis of track centerline.=


Dick Jockobs, PRRT&HS member, in Columbus, has some nice shots of the Co= lumbus Spruce St. Facility, maybe Dick can help here. (Note: See Pennsy Powe= r I, page #87 for rear shot of Spruce Street, shot from Olentangy tower look= ing NE across the Big Four/PRR diamonds.Yes, the photo has to be mislabeled=20= Canton, Ohio 1935. Right, Earl from Canton???)


I'd love for Dick Jacobs to=20= help us out.  He's always an incredible fount of information, especiall= y on the world of PRR steam.  Walt Stafa (also of Columbus) had to resc= ue me by tipping me off that the house in PP1 is Spruce Street instead of Ca= nton.  The string of N&W hoppers being slammed across the Big Four=20= here make a lot more sense in Columbus than they would in Canton (they're pr= obably headed for Chicago via Logansport).

Incidentally, I've just about gone blind trying to see the sidewalls of Spru= ce Street in videos (esp Clear Block's The Panhandle Vol 4 and 5).  I c= an't see enought to prove that the place is a 2-4-0 roundhouse, although the= high back wall makes the '0' obvious enough.  But I look forward to mo= re pix...

<<Please share your historical PRR information that you may have with=20= all of us so we all can learn more about the Pennsy and "The way it was".
Till next time when more time is available.

Ron Widman, Columbus, Ohio.    President, Crestline Roundhous= e Preservation Society

PRR Lines West. >>

I'll remind all once again t= hat my observations about generations of Lines West roundhouses are long on=20= hope and still a good deal shorter on evidence.  Please bear with us as= we await more pictures and factual data.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_136.1a78f7ef.2b7b9953_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:34:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Early Panhandle power (exotic?) --part1_146.a59eac2.2b7b9968_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/11/03 5:30:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on > equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & > Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the > beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s? Would also be interested in any > later information, but especially the period quoted. Can't seem to find > much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's > "Pictorial History". Thanks. Ron > Ron, You've seen the section in Pennsy Power 3 prepared by the late Bill Edson. My impression is that something else once appeared in the NRHS? RLHS? bulletin. Wish I was more helpful. Do I need to comment (only partly in fun) that early Lines West locomotives tended to be almost anything except 1. PRR standard 2. built by Baldwin If the Panhandle was anything like the early power on the Little Miami (1843 to merger in 1868), it might be a pretty exotic mix, possibly leavened by very old secondhand PRR hand-me-downs. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_146.a59eac2.2b7b9968_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/11/03 5:30:20 PM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Anyone know of a a source of ph= otographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, u= sed on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhand= le, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s?&= nbsp; Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the=20= period quoted.  Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a singl= e photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History".  Thanks.  Ro= n


Ron,

You've seen the section in Pennsy Power 3 prepared by the late Bill Edson. My impression is that something else once appeared in the NRHS? RLHS? bullet= in.  Wish I was more helpful.

Do I need to comment (only partly in fun) that early Lines West locomotives=20= tended to be almost anything except
1. PRR standard
2. built by Baldwin

If the Panhandle was anything like the early power on the Little Miami (1843= to merger in 1868), it might be a pretty exotic mix, possibly leavened by v= ery old secondhand PRR hand-me-downs.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_146.a59eac2.2b7b9968_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Comment Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:30:47 -0500 Good morning: With all the discussion about the dark green paint, I would like to offer this little sidebar. In the summer of 1958, my first with the PRR, I was assigned to Juniata Shop. Times were EXTREMELY rough and only a skeleton crew was on hand doing only the most minimal repairs to the diesels. About the heaviest repair that summer was changing out main generators. No such thing as an overhaul or repaint. HOWEVER, the units did receive a thorough wash job and a guy would spray a coat of clear VARNISH on the outside of the unit. That made the units absolutly SPARKLE and green they did appear. I shot a two unit Baldwin shark at E. Altoona right after it rolled out of Juniata with the varnish treatment and I am sure Bob Yanosey published that shot in Pennsy Diesel Years Volume Something or other. This practice had a severe downside however. After about six months, the varnish began to craze something awful and the formerly beautiful green units turned a flakey yellow. Later on, when I get more time to write, I will comment about the Masterpiece Polish jobs we used to give the switchers. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Derrick J Brashear Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:28 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > << the Baldwin BP20's, and I think the Baldwin BP60's > were Tuscan red initially. >> > > Norm, so as not to leave this without amplification or correction, the > Baldwin BP20's were delivered in Deluxe Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE) 5 "Dark" Green. One correction deserves another. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:24:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS Now if we just knew who made the referenced "Spray paint in 16 oz. cans" of Brunswick Green and Tuscan Red! Even better than baby food jars.... Jim McDaniel, looking for paint here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:15:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Early equipment on the Panhandle In a message dated 2/11/03 2:48:21 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s? Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted. Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History". Thanks. Ron >> Ron- Got another long story for you. What revived my interest in the PRR and lead me to this list was a question related to my recollection of the Train Order Book for Lincoln's Funeral Train that used to be in the Library of the PRR's Executive Offices. During the Civil Way (1860-65), every Union Army military dispatch was sent via telegraph to the War Office in Washington. All these dispatches were cleaned up and published about 1900 in 127 volumes, lot of books. I discovered these books while writing my dissertation and made one of those long range notes to follow up to see about acquiring a set. In the mid-1990s, I began following up after finding my note and discovered that an outfit in Indiana had already issued the set on CD ROM. I bought the CD ($85?) and have used it a number of times. The best part is that it is searchable. For example, I was able to search for "funeral train" and actually extract the time table, routing and other details. As the train moved along its route, the military escorts sent status reports to the War Office. Don't know if it contains anything that would be of interest to you, but it is a fascinating piece of history. See: _The Civil War CD-ROM: The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies_, Guild Press of Indiana, Inc., "www.guildpress.com". Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:06:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Colors- CONFESSION and the TIP --part1_125.1e25cae6.2b7bcb11_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the idea of the glosscote. I will have to remember that one :) I have several engines that simply appear to green to me (mostly older atlas katos). Mike Schock --part1_125.1e25cae6.2b7bcb11_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like the idea of the glosscote. I will have to remem= ber that one :)  I have several engines that simply appear to green to=20= me (mostly older atlas katos).

Mike Schock
 --part1_125.1e25cae6.2b7bcb11_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] smoke system "range hoods" Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:27:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2D289.B5D56990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After the steam locomotives were scrapped, they tossed the hoods. Then the Logansport Roundhouse burned to the ground in 1958 and Meadows a year or so later. After the horse got out of the barn all the other roundhouses had their roof trusses painted with a fire retardant paint, sort of a Tuscan Red Color. You modelers TAKE NOTE! WDV (Stickler for detail) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Earl Myers Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:01 AM To: PRR Talk Cc: Chip Subject: [PRR] smoke system "range hoods" Rick; Yes, Crestline and Canton had those tapered-topped, oval shaped bottom smoke hoods. Crestline still has them and can be viewed in the link to the Crestline website in the previous postings. We assume the big hoods are made from pressed or molded material such as asbestos. They are very thick, like an inch or more and make a dull thud when struck with the Matt Link Material Tester. They are HUGE yet the framing connecting them to the ceiling is VERY light angle iron.These would make a museum piece all by themselves. Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2D289.B5D56990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
After=20 the steam locomotives were scrapped, they tossed  the hoods.  = Then the=20 Logansport Roundhouse burned to the ground in 1958 and Meadows a year or = so=20 later.   After the horse got out of the barn all the other = roundhouses=20 had their roof trusses painted with a fire retardant paint, sort of a = Tuscan Red=20 Color.  You modelers TAKE NOTE!
 
WDV=20 (Stickler for detail)
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Earl=20 Myers
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:01 = AM
To: PRR=20 Talk
Cc: Chip
Subject: [PRR] smoke system "range=20 hoods"

Rick;
 Yes, Crestline and Canton had = those=20 tapered-topped, oval shaped bottom smoke hoods. Crestline still = has them=20 and can be viewed in the link to the Crestline website in the = previous =20 postings. We assume the big hoods are made from pressed or molded = material=20 such as asbestos. They are very thick, like an inch or more and make a = dull=20 thud when struck with the Matt Link Material Tester. They are HUGE yet = the=20 framing connecting them to the ceiling is VERY light angle iron.These = would=20 make a museum piece all by themselves.
Earl = Myers
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2D289.B5D56990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:26:25 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS In a message dated 2/11/2003 2:27:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, dlaplante@ll.mit.edu writes: > > > I'M SURE THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A LOT BUT I AM NEW TO THE LIST AND > AM CONFUSED AS TO THE COLORS USED ON PRR MODEL LOCOMOTIVES. THERE IS THE > TUSCAN, THE GREEN USED BY LIFE LIKE AND ATHEARN ON PASSENGER ENGINES BUT > THERE ARE ALSO HOOD, FREIGHT, UNITS MODELED IN THE SAME COLOR GREEN AND > ALSO IN BLACK. SOMEONE TOLD ME THE BLACK IS SUPPOSED TO BE BRUNSWICK > GREEN BUT THEY ARE BLACK. WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE DIFFERENT COLORS? Don: PRR never (I know living dangerously with that word) painted its locomotives black in the 20th century. Even the steam engines were DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel). However, not the entire loco was DGLE. On diesels, the frame, underbody and track side frames were black. The body of the loco was DGLE. Color pictures of freshly painted locomitives show the distinction. Tuscan was adopted for passenger locomotives in 1952 with the notable exception of an experiment in the late 20's which involved painting an unknown number (but very few) K4s steam loco's tuscan. At least two switchers assigned to Sunnyside yard in NY were painted tuscan also. Prior to adoption of the tuscan color in 1952, passenger engines were painted DGLE. The ratio of black to green in the mix is debatable. Most agree it is somewhere 7:1 and 10:1. Part of the difficulty is the wide range of "green" colors which could be mixed with black. Lifelike and Athearn (except the Genesis units) are far too green. The Genesis F's from Athearn, and Stewart units are much closer. One must keep in mind the effect of scale on color perception as well as lighting when trying to match PRR DGLE. There is also variation to be found based upon the color of the material used to make the model. To avoid this interference you need to prime black plastic. The very dark underlying material will have an effect upon the color. This is especially true when airbrushing very light coats so that the details are not hidden by thick paint applications. My own preference is Scalecoat II and Accuflex. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Color TIPS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:17:38 -0600 Hi Don, Jerry, Gregg, Norm, Greg, Ted, & All! For those who know me, would know how adamant I get about this issue of color. If you look at your model inside at your layout (with whatever lighting you use), and you can see green, it's Wrong! If when standing outside in the sunlight (you may stand in the shade - LOL), you can see green, nothings wrong. But, if after you've done that, and take the model back in the house/club house/etc., and still see green, it's WRONG! So, IMHO, there's not one plastic model available lettered PRR that has the correct shade of green. So, what's the answer? Weather It! Weathering a loco is not only a necessity for getting rid of the green sheen, but The Only Time I ever saw a clean engine was when it came out of the shop/washer. But then, I'm post WW2. I was too little before the war to remember what I saw - except for when standing next to a 80" drivered engine and looking up and saying "Wow!". And I couldn't even tell you what kind of engine it was. I do remember 1949 Chicago's World Fair and the mighty PRR Turbine. That was 1949, wasn't it? Oh this sometimers disease! But if you told me it was DGLE or Black or whatever, I couldn't argue! Ted's probably the closest to the truth when he said he painted everything black because he didn't know better. I'm inclined to think that's the right way. That's why I will categorically state that Greg Martin's Formula is best. The ¼ oz bottle of Testor's Gloss Black filled only to the top of the "square" part of the bottle; fill with "brunswick green" to the top, shake/stir, and you got it. Remember this is not an exact science of mixing paint. There are those who disagree, but that's okay. Everyone's entitled to an opinion! And I won't finish that! And won't go into it further! I do not own any P2K, Bachmann (call them Botchman, LOL because "which Bachmann are you talking about? Some were good, some were "so-so", and some were Yuck!"), nor any of the other diesel offerings. If I were to buy one, I'd strip the paint, repaint it with the Greg Martin Formula (And a great big thanks to him for all he's done for the hobby!) (See the email from Jerry Britton about how Greg's Athearn Genesis EF15 was painted in the correct shade. And IMHO, even that's too green. LOL). But if you do paint it that color, it would/will pass any inspection anywhere by anyone! And last but not least, this is good for both steam and diesel. Unless you like Tuscan! LOL Don't you just love this hobby? It's such Fun! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF President of pending PRRTHS Penn Texas chapter Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association in Fort Worth TX Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders in Chicago IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Color TIPS Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:37:59 -0600 Hi Don, Jerry, Gregg, Norm, Greg, Ted, & All! For those who know me, would know how adamant I get about this issue of color. If you look at your model inside at your layout (with whatever lighting you use), and you can see green, it's Wrong! So you (re)paint it with a proper mix of DGLE. If when standing outside in the sunlight (you may stand in the shade - LOL), you can see green, nothings wrong. But, if after you've done that, and take the model back in the house/club house/etc., and still see green, it's WRONG! So, IMHO, there's not one plastic model available lettered PRR that has the correct shade of green. So, what's the answer? Weather It! Weathering a loco is not only a necessity for getting rid of the green sheen, but The Only Time I ever saw a clean engine was when it came out of the shop/washer. But then, I'm post WW2. I was too little before the war to remember what I saw - except for when standing next to a 80" drivered engine and looking up and saying "Wow!". And I couldn't even tell you what kind of engine it was. I do remember 1949 Chicago's World Fair and the mighty PRR Turbine. That was 1949, wasn't it? Oh this sometimers disease! But if you told me it was DGLE or Black or whatever, I couldn't agree or disagree! Ted's probably the closest to the truth when he said he painted everything black because he didn't know better. I'm inclined to think that's the right way. That's why I will categorically state that Greg Martin's Formula is best. The ¼ oz bottle of Testor's Gloss Black filled only to the top of the "square" part of the bottle; fill with "brunswick green" to the top, shake/stir, and you got it. Remember this is not an exact science of mixing paint. And you use gloss because that's what's best for decals. You dull it after lettering, etc. Then, you weather it. And I won't get into that because you can use paint, chalk, and who knows what else these days! LOL There are those who disagree, but that's okay. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.....! And I won't finish that! And won't go into it further! I do not own any P2K, Bachmann (call them Botchman, LOL because "which Bachmann are you talking about? Some were good, some were "so-so", and some were Yuck!"), nor any of the other diesel offerings. If I were to buy one, I'd strip the paint, repaint it with the Greg Martin Formula (And a great big thanks to him for all he's done for the hobby!) (See the email from Jerry Britton about how Greg's Athearn Genesis EF15 was painted in the correct shade. And IMHO, even that's too green. LOL). But if you do paint it that color, it would/will pass any inspection anywhere by anyone! And last but not least: This is good for both steam and diesel. Unless you like Tuscan! LOL Don't you just love this hobby? It's such Fun! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF President of pending PRRTHS Penn Texas chapter Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association in Fort Worth TX Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders in Chicago IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:19:37 -0600 Hi All! Question for all. re. engine facilities. Most of us that model PRR find that almost all the facilities are large. But on a model railroad, small is more what we can handle/model (unless we exercise extreme compression). What photos/plans are available on the web that give us some ideas on modeling small engine facilities. Like a 3 stall roundhouse, or if just an enginehouse? Or like at the end of a branchline? The recent info re Crestline is fantastic. Perfect time period for me. Photos, plans, and more on the way. But - too large for my model railroad. (LOL! Unless in N scale, and "that's all you model is Crestline and nothing else!") Thanks. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:36:08 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Morgan asks: >Most of us that model PRR find that almost all the facilities are large. >But on a model railroad, small is more what we can handle/model (unless we >exercise extreme compression). What photos/plans are available on the web >that give us some ideas on modeling small engine facilities. Like a 3 stall >roundhouse, or if just an enginehouse? Or like at the end of a branchline? Not on-line, but published. "Trackside in Scranton" has a nice PRR brachline, end of the line facility in several photos. There are also a few photos in the Philly Chapter's Highline reprint on the Octoraro Branch, "The Mushroom Train" of the facilities around Oxford, which included an armstrong table, and water tank...I'll need to model those! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:39:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. From: Jerry Britton On 2/12/03 12:19 PM, PennsyNut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote: > Most of us that model PRR find that almost all the facilities are large. > But on a model railroad, small is more what we can handle/model (unless we > exercise extreme compression). What photos/plans are available on the web > that give us some ideas on modeling small engine facilities. Like a 3 stall > roundhouse, or if just an enginehouse? Or like at the end of a branchline? > > The recent info re Crestline is fantastic. Perfect time period for me. > Photos, plans, and more on the way. But - too large for my model railroad. Morgan, all: What is your era? Do you have a specific locale you want to model -- main line, Lines West, a specific branch line, etc.? A few thoughts from areas that I have studied: 1) York, PA. The Northern Central Branch was a two track main from Baltimore to Harrisburg. At York it had junctions with the Columbia Branch and the Frederick Branch, plus it interchanged with the Western Maryland and also the Maryland & Pennsylvania (Ma & Pa). At one point the NCRy makes a 90-degree bend at a point where the Columbia Branch diverts. There is a wye there, and inside the wye was a decent coal tower and a two stall engine house. You could model the entire area (lots of space) or selectively compress the surroundings and use staging for through trains. During the 1950's there were six passenger trains each way per day. 2) On the Elmira Branch (1-2 tracks) there was a lot of coal traffic, helpers, but little passenger traffic. There was a coal marshalling yard near the PA/NY line, just south of Elmira. (name escapes me momentarily). There surely was a small loco facility there. 3) Lewistown, PA. Junction with two other branches, small yard, passenger station, interlocking plant nearby. Plus, you could include the track pans at Hawstone which is very close. 4) If your era is early 1900's, there was a turntable and small coal wharf on the Northern Central Branch real close to Hanover Junction (between Baltimore and York). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] PRR Color Tips Apology and Such! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:00:50 -0600 Hi All! I apologize for sending two messages on my "tips". I must have sent one last night, and forgot I had done so. Sorry! Call it my "Sometimers disease". As for our discourse on paint, etc. All IMHO of course! I use the DGLE in gloss form for decaling. If you need to "glosscote", then do so - because decals work better on a gloss coat. But you then need to "dullcote" over all paint/lettering. I do all that before weathering. Now - question for all! Do you have a favorite weathering technique? I've heard about chalks, but have not tried it. I also know someone who takes 3 bottles of cheap rubbing alcohol (currently 39¢ each) and puts 1 drop of India Ink in one, 2 drops in the 2nd, and 3 drops in the third. And brushes some on the model. Using the different tints for different parts of the car. Then, he uses chalk after that. But I don't remember how he did that. And I do know he did an excellent job of weathering. If it were allowed, I could put a photo on this. How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? Or does everyone just use a web page? The weathering I'm more familiar with is the traditional "Floquil" or "Polly Scale". These sometimes result in an unsatisfactory finish. So, one has to be carefull when working with "paint on top of paint". I always start with the weakest solution, thinned a lot, so-as to not mess up! Works most of the time. But tedious. The chalk technique I've heard about is easy to repair mistakes. Apparently the alcohol mix can remove the chalk. It's only after all done, and you are satisfied with the end result, that you apply the dullcote again to "seal" it all in. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:55:15 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: > 2) On the Elmira Branch (1-2 tracks) there was a lot of coal traffic, > helpers, but little passenger traffic. There was a coal marshalling yard > near the PA/NY line, just south of Elmira. (name escapes me momentarily). > There surely was a small loco facility there. Southport? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WHISTORM@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:05:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Shamokin Valley branch --part1_113.1ee430cf.2b7be6db_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I could find the track maps for the Shamokin Valley branch of the Susquehanna District of the Northern Division? The National Archives is missing their set from the 1917 valuation and the Pa archives doesn't have a set, nor does the Hagley Library. I've run out of ideas. Dick Whiston --part1_113.1ee430cf.2b7be6db_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know where I=20= could find the track maps for the Shamokin Valley branch of the Susquehanna=20= District of the Northern Division?  The National Archives is missing th= eir set from the 1917 valuation and the Pa archives doesn't have a set, nor=20= does the Hagley Library.  I've run out of ideas. Dick Whiston --part1_113.1ee430cf.2b7be6db_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:11:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. From: Jerry Britton On 2/12/03 12:55 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: > On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> 2) On the Elmira Branch (1-2 tracks) there was a lot of coal traffic, >> helpers, but little passenger traffic. There was a coal marshalling yard >> near the PA/NY line, just south of Elmira. (name escapes me momentarily). >> There surely was a small loco facility there. > > Southport? > I believe so. I kept telling myself "South Fork", but I knew that was the branch/flyover on the main line near Johnstown. The Elmira Branch would be neat to model...great scenery, bridges, helpers, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:29:58 -0600 Hi! Jerry said: > Morgan, all: > What is your era? Do you have a specific locale you want to model -- main line, Lines West, a specific branch line, etc.? And goes on to say: > A few thoughts from areas that I have studied: > 1) York, PA. The Northern Central Branch was a two track main from Baltimore to Harrisburg. At York it had junctions with the Columbia Branch and the Frederick Branch, plus it interchanged with the Western Maryland and also the Maryland & Pennsylvania (Ma & Pa). At one point the NCRy makes a 90-degree bend at a point where the Columbia Branch diverts. There is a wye there, and inside the wye was a decent coal tower and a two stall engine house. You could model the entire area (lots of space) or selectively compress the surroundings and use staging for through trains. During the 1950's there were six passenger trains each way per day. > 2) On the Elmira Branch (1-2 tracks) there was a lot of coal traffic, helpers, but little passenger traffic. There was a coal marshalling yard near the PA/NY line, just south of Elmira. (name escapes me momentarily). There surely was a small loco facility there. > 3) Lewistown, PA. Junction with two other branches, small yard, passenger station, interlocking plant nearby. Plus, you could include the track pans at Hawstone which is very close. > 4) If your era is early 1900's, there was a turntable and small coal wharf on the Northern Central Branch real close to Hanover Junction (between Baltimore and York). All very good, Jerry, but ------ I am not really sure. Mainly because the PRR was soooo large, it's hard to pin down unless I could study every track plan available and scrutinize each area of the railroad to figure out. I am thinking that my model railroad in HO is going to have to be part freelance, part proto. But if I can get a close approximation to the PRR, probably a branch line, but with "some" passenger traffic. Era anywhere from 1935 through 1950. With emphasis on older equipment. i.e. I have A5, E5, F3, H8, H9, H10, L1, L2, I1 steam and BF15, GEG415, BS12, EF15, ES6, FF16 and maybe more? A mix that probably don't mix! LOL Yes, I realize that the F3 (Mogul) was gone by 1929, and that the EF15 didn't come around until after WW2, but that's "modeler's license"! And then, Bruce said: > Not on-line, but published. "Trackside in Scranton" has a nice PRR branch line, end of the line facility in several photos. There are also a few photos in the Philly Chapter's Highline reprint on the Octoraro Branch, "The Mushroom Train" of the facilities around Oxford, which included an armstrong table, and water tank...I'll need to model those! To which I say: "Great"! Sounds like what I "think" I want. Now to find the book! Is the Philly Chapter Highline stuff available on line? I'll check the PRRTHS site. By the way, I do have the Video tape "The S&L Story" by Penn Valley Pictures. Every time I watch it, I drooooool! Talk about a SPF? But then, I drool on "any" PRR. Oh yeah, I also have an RDC-1? So how do I fit the PRSL in with all this? Impossible. I'll probably have to get rid of that! Thanks to everyone! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:07:24 -0500 Jerry, I agree that no one want's the actual photos sent out to everyone on the list but another list I belong to the Erie Lackawanna list hosted by railfan.net has a great solution to this. If you send a photo to the list, the list software strips it out of the message, checks to see if it is a valid jpg and adds it to a daily page photo page for the list. The original text of the e-mail is sent to the list along with the link to the photo page. It seems to work amazingly well as it allows anyone to easily share photos on the list while avoiding the problem of viruses and sending large files to everyone on the list! Here's a sample photo page http://www.railfan.net/lists/listthumb.cgi?erielack-01-26-03 Is there any way that the list software that you use can be set up or modified to do something similar to this? Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:15 PM > To: PennsyNut; PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? > > > On 2/12/03 1:00 PM, PennsyNut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote: > > > How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? Or does everyone just use a > web page? > > > You can't. Attachments are disabled. > > For one thing, these days that's how many viruses/worms get around. So > disabling attachments eliminates probably 80% of that problem. > > For the second thing, a majority probably don't want to see the photo. > Sending it to all will take up space in mailboxes that have size > limits and > people will complain. Before we disabled attachments, someone sent a bunch > of photos in a post that went to the 200 or so subscribers at the time. > Today we have over 600. That would also bog down the listserv. > > So the answer is, use a web page. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Early equipment on the Panhandle --0-1002847370-1045076900=:81597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for all the suggestions. Ron Ronald Di Orio wrote:Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s? Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted. Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History". Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! 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Thanks for all the suggestions. Ron

 Ronald Di Orio <prr2249@yahoo.com> wrote:

Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s?  Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted.  Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History".  Thanks.  Ron


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Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-1002847370-1045076900=:81597-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:11:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? From: Jerry Britton On 2/12/03 2:07 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@actel.com) wrote: > I agree that no one want's the actual photos sent out to everyone on the > list > but another list I belong to the Erie Lackawanna list hosted by railfan.net > has a great solution to this. If you send a photo to the list, the list > software strips it out of the message, checks to see if it is a valid jpg > and adds it to a daily page photo page for the list. The original text > of the e-mail is sent to the list along with the link to the photo page. > It seems to work amazingly well as it allows anyone to easily share photos > on the list while avoiding the problem of viruses and sending large files > to everyone on the list! > Here's a sample photo page > http://www.railfan.net/lists/listthumb.cgi?erielack-01-26-03 Interesting concept... > > Is there any way that the list software that you use can be set up or > modified to do something similar to this? > No, not automatically via the listserv, but my webserver supports web-page-based uploads so a person could upload a graphic and then make a post to the list referring to it. This would require some programming, which I can handle, but don't see as a priority at this time (sorry). I got "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD out the door in December and am now devoting my time to prepping and posting a lot of documents people have been submitting over the years. I've posted quite a bit of new stuff over the past few days and am scanning numerous public timetables from Dan Cupper and track charts from Randy Williamson that will be posted over the coming weeks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:29:13 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Color TIPS Morgan writes: > So, IMHO, there's not one plastic model available lettered PRR that has the correct shade of green. So, what's the answer?< The Genesis F units are the right color, the Life Like Steam engines lettered for PRR are correct... Morgan did you forget? 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:54:26 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Weathering, was..[PRR] PRR Color Tips Apology and Such! >Now - question for all! Do you have a favorite weathering technique? I've >heard about chalks, but have not tried it. I also know someone who takes 3 >bottles of cheap rubbing alcohol (currently 39¢ each) and puts 1 drop of >India Ink in one, 2 drops in the 2nd, and 3 drops in the third. And brushes >some on the model. Using the different tints for different parts of the >car. Then, he uses chalk after that. But I don't remember how he did that. >And I do know he did an excellent job of weathering. If it were allowed, I >could put a photo on this. 1) Use a variety of approaches...not every car sees the same dirt. One thing (perhaps the only thing) I liked about last months article on weathering in MR was that point...you need "dirt" mixes from around the country. An SFRD reefer should look very different that an H21 hopper. 2) Weather with chalks if you are timid...screw up and you can wash them off. I did this with a LL P2K HH1...I couldn't bear the thought of messing up a nearly $300 loco with paints. Remember that dull coating is required and also really tones down the weathering. Now I use Polyscale, unthinned, thinned (1:1), and washes (1:10) as well as chalks. 3) Approaches to weathering a) Fade paint - overspray the model with the body coat, lightened slightly b) Fade lettering - same as a) Also, sand decals until they are VERY thin c) Chalking - lettering "chalks" or runs. Dry brush white paint down from stencils, or use oils and brush wet with mineral spirits to cause the paint to run d) Rust - chalk or paint. New rust is bright, old rust is almost black. You can use oils and the "wet" brush with mineral spirits to give a nice rain effect. All open cars (hoppers and gons) should have rusty interiors. Many will show a "heap line" with body paint above and rust below the line where the load usually comes to. e) Soot - overspray the top of the car with black...usually fairly heavy in the steam era, lighter for the diseasel era. Also note that soot gets washed off the car onto the sides. Greg Martin taught me to hold a 3x5 card vertically on the side of the car at each roof seam, and spray the soot onto the card. The overspray hits the car side. f) Reweigh and repack stencils...having these cleaner than the rest of the car can REALLY make the difference. This indicates that a paint job is more than 3 years old! g) Road dirt - trains kick up dirt, lots of it...underframes and trucks are NEVER body color if the car has been out on the road more than a few months. As noted in (1), use dirt colors appropriate for where the car has come from...use lots of light grey/white ont he running gear of a helper loco...Look at a photo of a freight GG1, the ends are dirtier than the sides. h) WET - there are lots of things that look wet on a car/loco. Use gloss paint to touch up these areas...like journal lids (oil), tank car spills (oil), tenders (water). 4) Here are two examples of exactly the same car, a NYC style USRA steel boxcar...btw, missing chalk marks...I still need to add these . http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/NYC146527.jpeg This car is modeled circa 6/44 after having been repainted in 8/43 from a Michigan Central car. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/CCCStL59273.jpeg This car represents a "Big 4" car that has missed the NYC repainting in '42-43 and based on a photo, will remain in this scheme until at least 1949. I sanded the NYC heralds to get the weathered look and oversprayed the car with the body color. Note that the reweigh stencil is newer than the lettering, but is still covered by dirt as it is almost 2 years old. The reweigh stencil was covered with masking tape during the overspray and then uncovered for the dirt layer. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:00:36 -0500 Bruce, Morgan, Also published, but not on line is the PRSL Terminal at Atlantic City, NJ. A stub end passenger terminal (8-tracks??), a turntable, three-stall wood roundhouse, wood coal tower, wood water tank, and stub end coach and freight yards. Talk about being made for a model railroad...this one has it all. There are several good books on the PRSL with maps and aerial photo's and most of the recent color books on the PRR contain some photos of this facility. Happy researching!! Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 12:36 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Morgan asks: >Most of us that model PRR find that almost all the facilities are large. >But on a model railroad, small is more what we can handle/model (unless we >exercise extreme compression). What photos/plans are available on the web >that give us some ideas on modeling small engine facilities. Like a 3 stall >roundhouse, or if just an enginehouse? Or like at the end of a branchline? Not on-line, but published. "Trackside in Scranton" has a nice PRR brachline, end of the line facility in several photos. There are also a few photos in the Philly Chapter's Highline reprint on the Octoraro Branch, "The Mushroom Train" of the facilities around Oxford, which included an armstrong table, and water tank...I'll need to model those! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] How do we post photos on PRR-Talk?/optional method Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:14:42 -0500 Or,if you don't have access to a web page and you think it's important, invite those who want to see the pictures to email you off list and request it be sent as an attachment. Phil > On 2/12/03 1:00 PM, PennsyNut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote: > > > How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? Or does everyone just use a web page? > > > You can't. Attachments are disabled. > > For one thing, these days that's how many viruses/worms get around. So > disabling attachments eliminates probably 80% of that problem. > > For the second thing, a majority probably don't want to see the photo. > Sending it to all will take up space in mailboxes that have size limits and > people will complain. Before we disabled attachments, someone sent a bunch > of photos in a post that went to the 200 or so subscribers at the time. > Today we have over 600. That would also bog down the listserv. > > So the answer is, use a web page. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:54:06 EST Subject: Re: Weathering, was..[PRR] PRR Color Tips Apology and Such! --part1_115.1ee74450.2b7c389e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2003 4:05:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > 2) Weather with chalks if you are timid...screw up and you can wash them > off. This is good advice when working on plastic, metal or resin. However, trying to wash chalk off a wood model is likely to result in an effect similar to india ink. I tried to wash dark "coal dust/soot" chalk off a water tank, was horrified by the result (which was to spread a very dark wash over the entire tank.) I desparately repainted the tank with another coat of depot buff (it was the EBT tank from Mt. Union, so within sight of the PRR and thus relevant to this list!) and got a faded dirty buff look that is still one of my favorite weathering jobs. Lee Rainey --part1_115.1ee74450.2b7c389e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/12/2003 4:05:03 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:


2)  Weather with chalks if= you are timid...screw up and you can wash them
off.


This is good advice when working on plastic, metal or resin. However, trying= to wash chalk off a wood model is likely to result in an effect similar to=20= india ink. I tried to wash dark "coal dust/soot" chalk off a water tank, was= horrified by the result (which was to spread a very dark wash over the enti= re tank.) I desparately repainted the tank with another coat of depot buff (= it was the EBT tank from Mt. Union, so within sight of the PRR and thus rele= vant to this list!) and got a faded dirty buff look that is still one of my=20= favorite weathering jobs.

Lee Rainey --part1_115.1ee74450.2b7c389e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:19:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR mile post Does any one know where I could find a picture of a PRR miule post? Are any available on the web? Thanks in advance, Mike Dimaio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc.-Southport Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:46:52 -0600 >> There surely was a small loco facility there. > > Southport? IIRC, Southport had a 12 stall roundhouse. Roughly a quarter circle with 125 foot long side walls (I will check the Sanborn maps tonight if someone wants to know for sure). Also a large concrete coaling tower. Not real small. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:14:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? From: Jerry Britton On 2/12/03 1:00 PM, PennsyNut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote: > How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? Or does everyone just use a web page? > You can't. Attachments are disabled. For one thing, these days that's how many viruses/worms get around. So disabling attachments eliminates probably 80% of that problem. For the second thing, a majority probably don't want to see the photo. Sending it to all will take up space in mailboxes that have size limits and people will complain. Before we disabled attachments, someone sent a bunch of photos in a post that went to the 200 or so subscribers at the time. Today we have over 600. That would also bog down the listserv. So the answer is, use a web page. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:20:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Valley branch From: Jerry Britton On 2/12/03 1:05 PM, WHISTORM@aol.com (WHISTORM@aol.com) wrote: > Does anyone know where I could find the track maps for the Shamokin Valley > branch of the Susquehanna District of the Northern Division? The National > Archives is missing their set from the 1917 valuation and the Pa archives > doesn't have a set, nor does the Hagley Library. I've run out of ideas. Dick > Whiston I wasn't sure, so I had to look at my own web site!!! Yes, Keystone Crossings has it. Go to the Maps page at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ and scroll down to the Northern Region (below Northern Division) and you will find it... "Track Chart, Northern Region, Susquehanna District, Shamokin Branch (513K, PDF), correct to Jan. 1, 1962. Includes Shamokin Branch, Scott Branch, Green Ridge Branch, and the Lewistown Branch. Original for scanning provided by Mike Hauk." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:28:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] How do we post photos on PRR-Talk? From: Jerry Britton On 2/12/03 2:11 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: >> Is there any way that the list software that you use can be set up or >> modified to do something similar to this? >> > No, not automatically via the listserv, but my webserver supports > web-page-based uploads so a person could upload a graphic and then make a post > to the list referring to it. This would require some programming, which I can > handle, but don't see as a priority at this time (sorry). I got "The > Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD out the door in December and am now devoting > my time to prepping and posting a lot of documents people have been submitting > over the years. I've posted quite a bit of new stuff over the past few days > and am scanning numerous public timetables from Dan Cupper and track charts > from Randy Williamson that will be posted over the coming weeks. This may be easier than I first thought...stay tuned. I think I can fairly easily set it up the way Yahoo Groups does it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:48:49 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR History I mentioned the morning the CD-ROM of Civil War material. I did a search for "Pennsylvania Railroad" and came up with a lot of interesting stuff including the following letter: "HARRISBURG, June 29, 1863. (Received 6.20 p.m.) Hon. SECRETARY OF WAR: I hold from Altoona, along the Juniata and Susquehanna, to Cono-wingo Bridge, above Havre de Grace. The fortifications opposite here are being made as strong as we can make them. If a determined attack is made on me, their shells may destroy the bridges that communicate. Some 2,000 men of Milroy's command hold the country near Bedford Springs. I am afraid they will ford the river in its present stage. Ten thousand men in and about Carlisle last night. Their artillery has felt our intrenchments to-day. My whole force organized is, perhaps, 16,000 men. Five thousand regulars will whip them all to pieces in an open field Lee, Longstreet, the two Hills, and Ewell were in and about Chambersburg, and this side, on Saturday last; one hundred and sixty-two pieces of artillery, many of them heavy Parrott guns. There is some doubt about Longstreet and D. H. Hill. All the rest is reliable, and comes from four independent and trusty sources. The Pennsylvania militia are turning out in response to the call, but I much fear the Pennsylvania Railroad will be cut. Dispatch in reference to regulars received D. N. COUCH, Major-general. (Similar letter to Meade.)" June 29, 1863 was the week before Gettysburg. Does the Altoona Museum cover the Civil War connections to the railroads, especially the Pennsy? Regards, Mary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Early equipment on the Panhandle Thanks for all the suggestions. Ron Ronald Di Orio wrote:Anyone know of a a source of photographs, plans, information, etc., on equipment, especially locomotives, used on the Panhandle (Pittsburgh & Steubenville, Holiday's Cove, Panhandle, P, C. & St. Louis} at the beginning of operations, 1850-s to 1870s? Would also be interested in any later information, but especially the period quoted. Can't seem to find much of anything, other than a single photo of a loco in Alexander's "Pictorial History". Thanks. Ron "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:34:28 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] 59th Street from 1917. Also, PRR economics question In a message dated 2/10/03 7:45:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:30 -0600 > From: "Andy Cich" > Subject: RE: Why a simple morphology for roundhouses > > Rick, > > From pictures I've seen, I believe Chicago 59th St. was a 2-4-?. I agree, > The photo on P36 of the NJ International Q book sure makes the center > section look like a 4. I have a photo of an M1 on the 59th St. turntable, > and enough of the side of the roundhouse is seen to identify the front as > most likely a "2". Once again, the subject of the photo was the > locomotive, > and not the building, so part of the building is blocked. > > FWIW, I also have a Sanborn Map of the 59th St Enginehouse, and it says it > was built in 1917. > > Andy > Aha! Many thanks, Andy... It may be too early to announce a "class of 1917" on Lines West, but this doesn't hurt. ************************************************ To launch a slightly different thread -- my impression is that US rail traffic was at new highs well before the start of WW1 in Europe in 1914. So why the flurry of rail reconstruction in 1917-1919? Was money so tight that the Pennsy could only rebuild with USRA money? Or had management been predicting another disastrous business recession (the last one had started in 1907, IIRC)? I do suspect that interest rates were at an alltime high in this period (although lower than they would be in the Twenties). And it does occur to me that Tom Vondruska would want us to remember that Lines West was impoverished by the weather whammies in 1913 and again in 1914. But does anyone know for sure: 1. If this was just a Lines West financial workout, and the eastern properties were refurbished earlier? 2. If this was PRR company policy to postpone investment until the traffic actually showed up and stressed the existing capacity? 3. If this was PRR taking advantage of USRA funding? (the government was supposed to reimburse railroads for costs incurred during the period of USRA control) 3. Or if this was a rational operational response to the installation of newer, larger steam power in this period? Can anyone shed light on this? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:34:28 EST Subject: [PRR] 59th Street from 1917. Also, PRR economics question --part1_1e6.1db5230.2b7c5024_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/03 7:45:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:30 -0600 > From: "Andy Cich" > Subject: RE: Why a simple morphology for roundhouses > > Rick, > > From pictures I've seen, I believe Chicago 59th St. was a 2-4-?. I agree, > The photo on P36 of the NJ International Q book sure makes the center > section look like a 4. I have a photo of an M1 on the 59th St. turntable, > and enough of the side of the roundhouse is seen to identify the front as > most likely a "2". Once again, the subject of the photo was the > locomotive, > and not the building, so part of the building is blocked. > > FWIW, I also have a Sanborn Map of the 59th St Enginehouse, and it says it > was built in 1917. > > Andy > Aha! Many thanks, Andy... It may be too early to announce a "class of 1917" on Lines West, but this doesn't hurt. ************************************************ To launch a slightly different thread -- my impression is that US rail traffic was at new highs well before the start of WW1 in Europe in 1914. So why the flurry of rail reconstruction in 1917-1919? Was money so tight that the Pennsy could only rebuild with USRA money? Or had management been predicting another disastrous business recession (the last one had started in 1907, IIRC)? I do suspect that interest rates were at an alltime high in this period (although lower than they would be in the Twenties). And it does occur to me that Tom Vondruska would want us to remember that Lines West was impoverished by the weather whammies in 1913 and again in 1914. But does anyone know for sure: 1. If this was just a Lines West financial workout, and the eastern properties were refurbished earlier? 2. If this was PRR company policy to postpone investment until the traffic actually showed up and stressed the existing capacity? 3. If this was PRR taking advantage of USRA funding? (the government was supposed to reimburse railroads for costs incurred during the period of USRA control) 3. Or if this was a rational operational response to the installation of newer, larger steam power in this period? Can anyone shed light on this? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1e6.1db5230.2b7c5024_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/10/03 7:45:41 AM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:30 -0600
   From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Why a simple morphology for roundhouses

Rick,

>From pictures I've seen, I believe Chicago 59th St. was a 2-4-?.  I agr= ee,
The photo on P36 of the NJ International Q book sure makes the center
section look like a 4.  I have a photo of an M1 on the 59th St. turntab= le,
and enough of the side of the roundhouse is seen to identify the front as most likely a "2".  Once again, the subject of the photo was the locomo= tive,
and not the building, so part of the building is blocked.

FWIW, I also have a Sanborn Map of the 59th St Enginehouse, and it says it was built in 1917.

Andy


Aha!  Many thanks, Andy...

It may be too early to announce a "class of 1917" on Lines West, but this do= esn't hurt.

************************************************
To launch a slightly different thread -- my impression is that US rail traff= ic was at new highs well before the start of WW1 in Europe in 1914.  So= why the flurry of rail reconstruction in 1917-1919?  Was money so tigh= t that the Pennsy could only rebuild with USRA money?  Or had managemen= t been predicting another disastrous business recession (the last one had st= arted in 1907, IIRC)?

I do suspect that interest rates were at an alltime high in this period (alt= hough lower than they would be in the Twenties).  And it does occur to=20= me that Tom Vondruska would want us to remember that Lines West was impoveri= shed by the weather whammies in 1913 and again in 1914.  But does anyon= e know for sure:
1.  If this was just a Lines West financial workout, and the eastern pr= operties were refurbished earlier?
2.  If this was PRR company policy to postpone investment until the tra= ffic actually showed up and stressed the existing capacity?
3.  If this was PRR taking advantage of USRA funding?  (the govern= ment was supposed to reimburse railroads for costs incurred during the perio= d of USRA control)
3.  Or if this was a rational operational response to the installation=20= of newer, larger steam power in this period?

Can anyone shed light on this?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1e6.1db5230.2b7c5024_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:55:02 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] tender hatches Hi All, I have a 210F82 tender that I have started to take the antennas OFF, because it is going to be an auxiliary/alternate tender for my J1. All the tenders made for the run had antennas, and it is readily known only 20% of the J1s had antennas. I know that generally tenders with antennas had 2 hatches parallel with the track. Those without had a single hatch across the tracks. Is this completely true, without exception? Removing the hatches would leave 2 HUGE holes in the tender deck that I would have to fill somehow. I would just as much rather solder 'em shut and call it a day. I can easily fill the holes for the trainphone equipment with solder and wet sand them. Furthermore, it is a $400.00 tender I am bashing on here. I would really like to have something useable when I am done. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:06:49 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Morgan, In your quest for a small PRR EH, Wheatland, PA on the E&P had a nice 3 bay concrete and brick roundhouse w/ turntable. Nothing on the web but I could scan individual plans and send to you as an attachment, if you want them. It will take me awhile though as I have a ton of stuff in the both the work and pleasure pipeline. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:30:42 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk PRR color tips From: Beth Caples When I spray on the final dull coat to seal the decals on black hoppers, etc. I add a little black to the dull coat to give it a "black wash" effect. It makes the decals less noticeable and also makes the lettering appear painted on. It is opaque enough so that the lettering still shows through. Could this same idea be used for your engines that are "too green". To give it a darker green look. But don't overdo it. If you try this. Do it on a junk body first! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:17:46 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint Comment Bill Volkmer wrote: > > Good morning: > > With all the discussion about the dark green paint, I would like to > offer this little sidebar. > > In the summer of 1958, my first with the PRR, I was assigned to Juniata > Shop. Times were EXTREMELY rough and only a skeleton crew was on hand > doing only the most minimal repairs to the diesels. About the heaviest > repair that summer was changing out main generators. No such thing as > an overhaul or repaint. > > HOWEVER, the units did receive a thorough wash job and a guy would spray > a coat of clear VARNISH on the outside of the unit. That made the units > absolutly SPARKLE and green they did appear. I shot a two unit Baldwin > shark at E. Altoona right after it rolled out of Juniata with the > varnish treatment and I am sure Bob Yanosey published that shot in > Pennsy Diesel Years Volume Something or other. > > This practice had a severe downside however. After about six months, > the varnish began to craze something awful and the formerly beautiful > green units turned a flakey yellow. > > Later on, when I get more time to write, I will comment about the > Masterpiece Polish jobs we used to give the switchers. > > WDV Bill, Derrick and rest, If I could only have a dollar for how many times this came up on the PRRT&HS Forum. I do remember one tidbit of information which came from Chris Baer. Seems the greenish tint in the paint was due to the pigment in the copper salts in the paint used by the PRR which came from the mines in the Duchy of Brunswick (Germany). Translated directly from the German ("Braunschweiger Grun"), it becomes Brunswick Green. BTW, giving massive credit where it's due; Chris became my "Walking PRR Encyclopedia" on the Forum after the untimely passing of Jim Lynch and is still sharing his wealth of knowledge. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:18:10 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: FW: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS There was some discussion on the above subject as to who all of the people were listed on the 1966 PRR merger locomotive renumbering memo that was posted a few days ago. I got together with two of my good friends from the mechanical department (Bob Watson and Carl Korn) and after a few back and forth messages, we collectively got most of it, including job titles. We have one missing entry. Al =========== MEMO TO: GCV = George C. Vaughn - GM Eastern Region GMS = George M. Smith - GM Central Region HCK = Howard C. Kohout - GM Western region Author = William E. Lehr - CMO CC: JCW = Jack C. White - Manager Altoona Works ARM = Al R. Marsh - RMO Eastern Region, Phila CAK = Carl A. Korn - RMO Central Region, Pgh WLT = William L. Thigpen - RMO Western Region, Chi EJG = Edward J. Gentsch - Mgr Material JPS = Jack P. Sperry - Sys IE Trans (Merger Planning) DES = David E. Smucker - VPO REF = Richard E Franklin- Mechanical Planning AMH = A. Moseby Harris - GM Transportation REP = Richard E. Pinkham - Ass't GM Trans - Loco Util GRW = George R. Weaver - Manager Mechanical Equipment & Tests SVS = Spencer V. Smith - Electrical Engineer CSH = Charles S. Hill - Mgr Gen Accounting JWR = Jack W. Rathvon - Mgr Operating Rules GAR = ?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:55:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] tender hatches Hi All, I have a 210F82 tender that I have started to take the antennas OFF, because it is going to be an auxiliary/alternate tender for my J1. All the tenders made for the run had antennas, and it is readily known only 20% of the J1s had antennas. I know that generally tenders with antennas had 2 hatches parallel with the track. Those without had a single hatch across the tracks. Is this completely true, without exception? Removing the hatches would leave 2 HUGE holes in the tender deck that I would have to fill somehow. I would just as much rather solder 'em shut and call it a day. I can easily fill the holes for the trainphone equipment with solder and wet sand them. Furthermore, it is a $400.00 tender I am bashing on here. I would really like to have something useable when I am done. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:23:40 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] DGLE Paint Comment Re: Bill's comment> "BTW, giving massive credit where it's due; Chris became my "Walking PRR Encyclopedia" on the Forum..." Some of you may not realize it but Chris Baer is one of two being honored by the PRRT&HS at the annual meeting banquet this year. The other is Ted Rose, posthumously. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:46:53 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum This evening I was sitting half hearing the TV news from Altoona playing in the next room. Something went by to the effect that the state has or is going to put up some money. The number 1.6 megabucks sticks in my mind, but as I said, I was only half listening and by the time I perked up, some details had gone by. Perhaps someone else has heard something about this? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Elusive Trainphone Photo Found! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:09:52 -0600 On Page 15 of Sweetland's Color Pictorial Volume 3, there is a photo of a FM switcher. Parked right behind it is an EP-20. You can see the rear of the E-unit, and see how the trainphone was routed at the rear. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:32:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] 59th Street from 1917. Also, PRR economics question In a message dated 2/10/03 7:45:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:30 -0600 > From: "Andy Cich" > Subject: RE: Why a simple morphology for roundhouses > > Rick, > > From pictures I've seen, I believe Chicago 59th St. was a 2-4-?. I agree, > The photo on P36 of the NJ International Q book sure makes the center > section look like a 4. I have a photo of an M1 on the 59th St. turntable, > and enough of the side of the roundhouse is seen to identify the front as > most likely a "2". Once again, the subject of the photo was the > locomotive, > and not the building, so part of the building is blocked. > > FWIW, I also have a Sanborn Map of the 59th St Enginehouse, and it says it > was built in 1917. > > Andy > Aha! Many thanks, Andy... It may be too early to announce a "class of 1917" on Lines West, but this doesn't hurt. ************************************************ To launch a slightly different thread -- my impression is that US rail traffic was at new highs well before the start of WW1 in Europe in 1914. So why the flurry of rail reconstruction in 1917-1919? Was money so tight that the Pennsy could only rebuild with USRA money? Or had management been predicting another disastrous business recession (the last one had started in 1907, IIRC)? I do suspect that interest rates were at an alltime high in this period (although lower than they would be in the Twenties). And it does occur to me that Tom Vondruska would want us to remember that Lines West was impoverished by the weather whammies in 1913 and again in 1914. But does anyone know for sure: 1. If this was just a Lines West financial workout, and the eastern properties were refurbished earlier? 2. If this was PRR company policy to postpone investment until the traffic actually showed up and stressed the existing capacity? 3. If this was PRR taking advantage of USRA funding? (the government was supposed to reimburse railroads for costs incurred during the period of USRA control) 3. Or if this was a rational operational response to the installation of newer, larger steam power in this period? Can anyone shed light on this? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:32:07 EST Subject: [PRR] 59th Street from 1917. Also, PRR economics question --part1_1dd.27e1b6a.2b7c79c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/03 7:45:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:30 -0600 > From: "Andy Cich" > Subject: RE: Why a simple morphology for roundhouses > > Rick, > > From pictures I've seen, I believe Chicago 59th St. was a 2-4-?. I agree, > The photo on P36 of the NJ International Q book sure makes the center > section look like a 4. I have a photo of an M1 on the 59th St. turntable, > and enough of the side of the roundhouse is seen to identify the front as > most likely a "2". Once again, the subject of the photo was the > locomotive, > and not the building, so part of the building is blocked. > > FWIW, I also have a Sanborn Map of the 59th St Enginehouse, and it says it > was built in 1917. > > Andy > Aha! Many thanks, Andy... It may be too early to announce a "class of 1917" on Lines West, but this doesn't hurt. ************************************************ To launch a slightly different thread -- my impression is that US rail traffic was at new highs well before the start of WW1 in Europe in 1914. So why the flurry of rail reconstruction in 1917-1919? Was money so tight that the Pennsy could only rebuild with USRA money? Or had management been predicting another disastrous business recession (the last one had started in 1907, IIRC)? I do suspect that interest rates were at an alltime high in this period (although lower than they would be in the Twenties). And it does occur to me that Tom Vondruska would want us to remember that Lines West was impoverished by the weather whammies in 1913 and again in 1914. But does anyone know for sure: 1. If this was just a Lines West financial workout, and the eastern properties were refurbished earlier? 2. If this was PRR company policy to postpone investment until the traffic actually showed up and stressed the existing capacity? 3. If this was PRR taking advantage of USRA funding? (the government was supposed to reimburse railroads for costs incurred during the period of USRA control) 3. Or if this was a rational operational response to the installation of newer, larger steam power in this period? Can anyone shed light on this? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1dd.27e1b6a.2b7c79c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/10/03 7:45:41 AM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:30 -0600
   From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Why a simple morphology for roundhouses

Rick,

>From pictures I've seen, I believe Chicago 59th St. was a 2-4-?.  I agr= ee,
The photo on P36 of the NJ International Q book sure makes the center
section look like a 4.  I have a photo of an M1 on the 59th St. turntab= le,
and enough of the side of the roundhouse is seen to identify the front as most likely a "2".  Once again, the subject of the photo was the locomo= tive,
and not the building, so part of the building is blocked.

FWIW, I also have a Sanborn Map of the 59th St Enginehouse, and it says it was built in 1917.

Andy


Aha!  Many thanks, Andy...

It may be too early to announce a "class of 1917" on Lines West, but this do= esn't hurt.

************************************************
To launch a slightly different thread -- my impression is that US rail traff= ic was at new highs well before the start of WW1 in Europe in 1914.  So= why the flurry of rail reconstruction in 1917-1919?  Was money so tigh= t that the Pennsy could only rebuild with USRA money?  Or had managemen= t been predicting another disastrous business recession (the last one had st= arted in 1907, IIRC)?

I do suspect that interest rates were at an alltime high in this period (alt= hough lower than they would be in the Twenties).  And it does occur to=20= me that Tom Vondruska would want us to remember that Lines West was impoveri= shed by the weather whammies in 1913 and again in 1914.  But does anyon= e know for sure:
1.  If this was just a Lines West financial workout, and the eastern pr= operties were refurbished earlier?
2.  If this was PRR company policy to postpone investment until the tra= ffic actually showed up and stressed the existing capacity?
3.  If this was PRR taking advantage of USRA funding?  (the govern= ment was supposed to reimburse railroads for costs incurred during the perio= d of USRA control)
3.  Or if this was a rational operational response to the installation=20= of newer, larger steam power in this period?

Can anyone shed light on this?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1dd.27e1b6a.2b7c79c7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:08:10 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS In a message dated 2/12/2003 8:24:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, jlmcdaniel@esva.net writes: > > > Now if we just knew who made the referenced "Spray paint in 16 oz. cans" > of Brunswick Green and Tuscan Red! Even better than baby food jars.... > > Jim McDaniel, looking for paint here in Delmarva > If you use the reference numbers from the back of the drift cards the paint is available in Duponts Imron line by the gallon. (see archives when I posted this information after inquiring of Dupont chemists.) Anyone want to start bottling it in 2 oz. bottles? Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] smoke system "range hoods" Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:01:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C2D286.11EA17C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick; Yes, Crestline and Canton had those tapered-topped, oval shaped bottom = smoke hoods. Crestline still has them and can be viewed in the link to = the Crestline website in the previous postings. We assume the big hoods = are made from pressed or molded material such as asbestos. They are very = thick, like an inch or more and make a dull thud when struck with the = Matt Link Material Tester. They are HUGE yet the framing connecting them = to the ceiling is VERY light angle iron.These would make a museum piece = all by themselves. Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C2D286.11EA17C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rick;
 Yes, Crestline and Canton had = those=20 tapered-topped, oval shaped bottom smoke hoods. Crestline still has = them=20 and can be viewed in the link to the Crestline website in the = previous =20 postings. We assume the big hoods are made from pressed or molded = material such=20 as asbestos. They are very thick, like an inch or more and make a dull = thud when=20 struck with the Matt Link Material Tester. They are HUGE yet the framing = connecting them to the ceiling is VERY light angle iron.These would make = a=20 museum piece all by themselves.
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C2D286.11EA17C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:40:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse placement --part1_20.9f560dc.2b7cec51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/03 12:47:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Hi All! > > Question for all. re. engine facilities. > > Most of us that model PRR find that almost all the facilities are large. > But on a model railroad, small is more what we can handle/model (unless we > exercise extreme compression). What photos/plans are available on the web > that give us some ideas on modeling small engine facilities. Like a 3 > stall > roundhouse, or if just an enginehouse? Or like at the end of a branchline? > > The recent info re Crestline is fantastic. Perfect time period for me. > Photos, plans, and more on the way. But - too large for my model railroad. > (LOL! Unless in N scale, and "that's all you model is Crestline and nothing > else!") > > Thanks. > > Morgan Bilbo > A roundhouse and the attendant facilities, if done right and filled with great engine models, can be the centerpiece of a model railroad layout. Of course, it is also truly an enormous investment of layout space. As model railroaders with constrained space, we should feel free to ask if, for our use and in terms of its contribution to model railroad operations, the modeled roundhouse is a poor tradeoff. On my last layout, I made do with just a couple of ready tracks (capacity: 4 consists) at the modeled yard, and we told ourselves this was "on the edge of town". Within the past several months, I've also had to admit that the "roundhouse somewhere else" was a recurring theme on several Lines West prototypes. Here in Louisville, the 14th Street roundhouse was well over a mile from the passenger station, and from the main freight yard. In that case, both of them had "moved away" in the past. In Cincinnati, the Pendleton engine terminal was around a hill, out of sight of the freight yard (again, Pendleton kept the engine terminal when the yard moved in 1907 to bigger quarters at Undercliff. In Columbus, I've been amazed to realize that the J1's that worked trains out of Grogan Yard to Sandusky had to go to another yard a mile away (at St. Clair Avenue) to find their enginehouse or coal dock. And finally, I realized a week or so ago that Columbus Spruce Street, an engine house on the line to Logansport, was between (but out of sight of) both Union Station and PRR's Grandview Yard. Thus, modeling a station or a yard does not automatically mean that a roundhouse will be adjacent. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_20.9f560dc.2b7cec51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/12/03 1= 2:47:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Hi All!

Question for all.  re. engine facilities.

Most of us that model PRR find that almost all the facilities are large.
But on a model railroad, small is more what we can handle/model (unless we exercise extreme compression).  What photos/plans are available on the=20= web
that give us some ideas on modeling small engine facilities.  Like a 3=20= stall
roundhouse, or if just an enginehouse?  Or like at the end of a branchl= ine?

The recent info re Crestline is fantastic.  Perfect time period for me.=
Photos, plans, and more on the way.  But - too large for my model railr= oad.
(LOL! Unless in N scale, and "that's all you model is Crestline and nothing<= BR> else!")

Thanks.

Morgan Bilbo

A roundhouse and the attendant facilities, if done right and filled with gre= at engine models, can be the centerpiece of a model railroad layout.  O= f course, it is also truly an enormous investment of layout space.

As model railroaders with constrained space, we should feel free to ask if,=20= for our use and in terms of its contribution to model railroad operations, t= he modeled roundhouse is a poor tradeoff.  On my last layout, I made do= with just a couple of ready tracks (capacity: 4 consists) at the modeled ya= rd, and we told ourselves this was "on the edge of town".

Within the past several months, I've also had to admit that the "roundhouse=20= somewhere else" was a recurring theme on several Lines West prototypes. = ; Here in Louisville, the 14th Street roundhouse was well over a mile from t= he passenger station, and from the main freight yard.  In that case, bo= th of them had "moved away" in the past.

In Cincinnati, the Pendleton engine terminal was around a hill, out of sight= of the freight yard (again, Pendleton kept the engine terminal when the yar= d moved in 1907 to bigger quarters at Undercliff. 

In Columbus, I've been amazed to realize that the J1's that worked trains ou= t of Grogan Yard to Sandusky had to go to another yard a mile away (at St. C= lair Avenue) to find their enginehouse or coal dock.  And finally, I re= alized a week or so ago that Columbus Spruce Street, an engine house on the=20= line to Logansport, was between (but out of sight of) both Union Station and= PRR's Grandview Yard.

Thus, modeling a station or a yard does not automatically mean that a roundh= ouse will be adjacent.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_20.9f560dc.2b7cec51_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:36:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] tender hatches >I have a 210F82 tender that I have started to take the antennas OFF, because >it is going to be an auxiliary/alternate tender for my J1. All the tenders >made for the run had antennas, and it is readily known only 20% of the J1s >had antennas. Bill, for the J1, wouldn't that be a 210F84 tender? >I know that generally tenders with antennas had 2 hatches parallel with the >track. Those without had a single hatch across the tracks. Is this >completely true, without exception? No, but unfortunately, I don't know that it isn't true for the 210F84. Any high angle photos of J1/J1a locos in the PP series? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:00:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] tender hatches From: Jerry Britton On 2/13/03 9:36 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> I have a 210F82 tender that I have started to take the antennas OFF, because >> it is going to be an auxiliary/alternate tender for my J1. All the tenders >> made for the run had antennas, and it is readily known only 20% of the J1s >> had antennas. > > Bill, for the J1, wouldn't that be a 210F84 tender? > >> I know that generally tenders with antennas had 2 hatches parallel with the >> track. Those without had a single hatch across the tracks. Is this >> completely true, without exception? > > No, but unfortunately, I don't know that it isn't true for the 210F84. Any > high angle photos of J1/J1a locos in the PP series? > The Key Imports J's have hatches arranged as you indicate... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/key_n_j1.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:52:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] tender hatches Bill, Bruce, List, Ahem,,,, Mr Charlie Horan, please chime in and share your past emails to me with Bill and Bruce about Tender Hatches. Awhile back Charlie relayed to me all kinds of Hatch info, sightings, etc. Tell them about the Tender with 1 1/2 hatches as well as the 3 Hatch Tender. Interesting! As we all know by now, use a photo for evidence if possible. I also need/want to re-do a Key HO I1 Tender correctly....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:41 -0500 Listers, Speaking of Roundhouses, Is the rumor that the Con-cor/Heljan roundhouse is based on the Northumberland one true? If so, then: Where can one get better smoke jacks? Is the exterior natural brick or painted brick? What color are the window frames? Interior colors? Finally, The model has the tracks sunk down into the floor. I always thought that the top of the tracks was level with floor. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine Facilities, etc. On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Chany, Christopher wrote: > > Listers, > > > Speaking of Roundhouses, Is the rumor that the Con-cor/Heljan roundhouse is > based on the Northumberland one true? No. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:01:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Available Passenger Car Models From: Jerry Britton A few weeks ago someone was asking about the "correctness" of Rivarossi passenger car models. They were referred to Keystone Crossings to view a page of commentary made several years ago by Andy Miller. That link was found to be broken. I have just added links to two excellent external sites that provide commentary on not only Rivarossi, but on many other brands of available passenger equipment. One site provides proto spotting features and HO scale info. The other provides N scale info. Go to the "Modeling" page of "Keystone Crossings" and scroll down to "Modeling Passenger Operations" and look under "Related Sites"... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:03:05 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint Bill Morlitz and all, Correct, the color "Brunswick Green" was Black with Copper salts added (no definition to the mix). I guess you an blame Pullman and Glidden Paint for introducing the verbage "Brunswick Green" into our little world. Here is what my reseach has found. Around 1940 (the exact date escapes me but I can verify it if I were not at work)Pullman received instructions from the PRR to paint a 12-1 Sleeper in "Glidden Brunswick Green" or "PRR Locomotive Dark Green Enamel" (Pullman's verbage not mine). Then after Caryl was painted 3 other 12-1 sleepers were painted to the same spec's per the PRR. This is the first documentation I have found describing DGLE/DGLP as "Brunswick Green" and actually describing what it took to create this color and actually referencing a specific paint manufacturer as a supplier of what we know to be DGLE/DGLP. In Pullman's writings they mention the color is for all intents black except in extremely bright light. Just remember oxygen and copper equals oxidation, so as the varnish in the paint broke down more "green" would appear and when the color was cleaned and revarnished the color would/should return to the original color. Remember true varnish is a red-amber color thus a coat will darken any base color. Remember that Gidden was an online shipper/supplier with plants in the Chicago area as well as Camden, NJ. The X54 cars were labled to return to Glidden at both locatins as well as Campbell Soups. Just as a side note, Bruce Smith and I went over these 12-1's (4 total) in Cocoa Beach and I have encouraged him to do at least one car into this paint scheme as it fits his modeling era, not mine. However; I am going to do one into this scheme just because I think it is different enough to warrant one. I can answer your specific questions, but the information stream here is limited. Greg Martin ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÅ¢¶¬²+-jwÂ+a¶¬–+-þ™^jǯŠÈ­†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(§÷( !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Tunnel Portals Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:26:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2D36B.EECB7DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Listmembers, Did the PRR have a standard plan for Tunnel portals? = If so were can I find these? Thanks, Ken Miller. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2D36B.EECB7DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Listmembers, Did the PRR have a = standard plan=20 for Tunnel portals? If so were can I find these? Thanks, Ken=20 Miller.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2D36B.EECB7DB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:29:36 +0000 Well the copper addition under the right conditions could have caused the paint to take on a blueish tint and may be the source of the various rumors over the years about at least one engine being painted blue. Copper sulfate (CuSO4) is a medium color blue and if an engine paint was oxidized in a high sulfur area like around the discharge of a power plant (remember there were no polution controls until the mid60's) could certainly have taken on a blueish tint. Norm Bell > Bill Morlitz and all, > > Correct, the color "Brunswick Green" was Black with Copper salts added (no > definition to the mix). I guess you an blame Pullman and Glidden Paint for > introducing the verbage "Brunswick Green" into our little world. Here is what my > reseach has found. > > Around 1940 (the exact date escapes me but I can verify it if I were not at > work)Pullman received instructions from the PRR to paint a 12-1 Sleeper in > "Glidden Brunswick Green" or "PRR Locomotive Dark Green Enamel" (Pullman's > verbage not mine). Then after Caryl was painted 3 other 12-1 sleepers were > painted to the same spec's per the PRR. This is the first documentation I have > found describing DGLE/DGLP as "Brunswick Green" and actually describing what it > took to create this color and actually referencing a specific paint manufacturer > as a supplier of what we know to be DGLE/DGLP. In Pullman's writings they > mention the color is for all intents black except in extremely bright light. > Just remember oxygen and copper equals oxidation, so as the varnish in the paint > broke down more "green" would appear and when the color was cleaned and > revarnished the color would/should return to the original color. Remember true > varnish is a red-amber color thus a coat will darken any base color. > > Remember that Gidden was an online shipper/supplier with plants in the Chicago > area as well as Camden, NJ. The X54 cars were labled to return to Glidden at > both locatins as well as Campbell Soups. > > Just as a side note, Bruce Smith and I went over these 12-1's (4 total) in Cocoa > Beach and I have encouraged him to do at least one car into this paint scheme as > it fits his modeling era, not mine. However; I am going to do one into this > scheme just because I think it is different enough to warrant one. > > I can answer your specific questions, but the information stream here is > limited. > > Greg Martin ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿŠjË"²Ö§qŠØ¶¬þX¬¿•æ¬ûâ²+†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(¯÷(Ÿ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:56:48 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint Greg sez: >Just as a side note, Bruce Smith and I went over these 12-1's (4 total) in >Cocoa Beach and I have encouraged him to do at least one car into this >paint scheme as it fits his modeling era, not mine. However; I am going to >do one into this scheme just because I think it is different enough to >warrant one. > >I can answer your specific questions, but the information stream here is >limited. As Greg notes, we chatted about these cars recently...Where would we start ? Is the Rivarossi 12-1 suitable...are they going to re-release it in an upgraded version? Can anyone point me to a souce (and model number) since I don't have any 12-1's stashed (and I need a few in PULLMAN paint for troop trains as well). Is this the car Riv currently sells as a 1920s Era Heavyweight Pullman Sleeper in a variety of paint (except PULLMAN)? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:09:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1's (was Root History of DGLE Paint) From: Jerry Britton On 2/13/03 2:56 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Greg sez: >> Just as a side note, Bruce Smith and I went over these 12-1's (4 total) in >> Cocoa Beach and I have encouraged him to do at least one car into this >> paint scheme as it fits his modeling era, not mine. However; I am going to >> do one into this scheme just because I think it is different enough to >> warrant one. >> >> I can answer your specific questions, but the information stream here is >> limited. > > As Greg notes, we chatted about these cars recently...Where would we start > ? Is the Rivarossi 12-1 suitable...are they going to re-release it in > an upgraded version? Can anyone point me to a souce (and model number) > since I don't have any 12-1's stashed (and I need a few in PULLMAN paint > for troop trains as well). Is this the car Riv currently sells as a 1920s > Era Heavyweight Pullman Sleeper in a variety of paint (except PULLMAN)? > Geez, I missed the beginning of the 12-1 thread...I thought we were talking locos! What are "these 12-1's (4 total)" that you are referring to? Is someone contemplating production? The Rivarossi "1920s Era Heavyweight Pullman Sleeper" is indeed the 12-1. However, there were some variants of the 12-1. The Pennsy even owned a few of the versions. One easy spotting feature is the 2nd and 3rd windows at the one end. In one variation they are the same size as windows 1 and 4; in another they are a little shorter, with the tops aligned. Then there's the "as built" roof vs. the "after a/c" roof issue. Lots of combinations possible given the paint schemes added to the mix. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:25:33 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint In a message dated 2/13/2003 2:29:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,Norm Bell (ndbprr@att.net) writes: > Well the copper addition under the right conditions could have caused the paint > to take on a blueish tint... Well those of us who were art student we might call it "patina"... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:43:36 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint In a message dated 2/13/2003 2:56:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,Bruce Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) writes: > As Greg notes, we chatted about these cars recently...Where would we start ? Is the Rivarossi 12-1 suitable...< Yes, it can be suitable with some work and there are plenty of article written on the upgrading of these cars. >are they going to re-release it in an upgraded version?< Yes, they are going to upgrade their current line of Heavy wieght cars and I put Bill Wischer (Walthers) in touch with Tom Madden at Cocoa Beach to help him get the information needed to get Rivarossi on track as I understand it the current personal at Rivarossi where not around when the current line of cars dies were cut and they need HELP! >Can anyone point me to a souce (and model number)since I don't have any 12-1's stashed (and I need a few in PULLMAN paint for troop trains as well). Is this the car Riv currently sells as a 1920s Era Heavyweight Pullman Sleeper in a variety of paint (except PULLMAN)?< Yes, Bruce it is the 1920's ear "sleeper". You can usually oick them up cheap at Flea markets I bought one in December for 5 bucks. If you need one let me know. > > Happy Rails > Bruce Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:43:32 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint In a message dated 2/13/2003 2:56:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,Bruce Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) writes: > As Greg notes, we chatted about these cars recently...Where would we start ? Is the Rivarossi 12-1 suitable...< Yes, it can be suitable with some work and there are plenty of article written on the upgrading of these cars. >are they going to re-release it in an upgraded version?< Yes, they are going to upgrade their current line of Heavy wieght cars and I put Bill Wischer (Walthers) in touch with Tom Madden at Cocoa Beach to help him get the information needed to get Rivarossi on track as I understand it the current personal at Rivarossi where not around when the current line of cars dies were cut and they need HELP! >Can anyone point me to a souce (and model number)since I don't have any 12-1's stashed (and I need a few in PULLMAN paint for troop trains as well). Is this the car Riv currently sells as a 1920s Era Heavyweight Pullman Sleeper in a variety of paint (except PULLMAN)?< Yes, Bruce it is the 1920's ear "sleeper". You can usually oick them up cheap at Flea markets I bought one in December for 5 bucks. If you need one let me know. > > Happy Rails > Bruce Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Penn Station NY Film Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:06:06 -0500 Marty, One available video that comes to mind is the one produced by The History Channel for their Trains Unlimited series. Go to http://www.historychannel.com/ and follow the links to the Store. Look up Trains Unlimited in the "Find a Show" box and you will see all the available videos including the one titled Pennsylvania Station. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: [PRR] Penn Station NY Film > I've mentioned that I had an office in the old Penn Station in NYC. > > Over the years, I've seen interior shots of the great halls. Last night, I > just happened to click through in time to catch the very begining of a 1955 > flic, "The Seven Year Itch," and there was the inside of Penn Station. > > Are there any commercially available videos(disks) of old PRR film, > especially, Penn Station in NYC? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:36:21 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Extended piston rods --0-2088010191-1045172181=:25718 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What was the purpose of extended piston rods on some steam locomotives? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-2088010191-1045172181=:25718 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii What was the purpose of extended piston rods on some steam locomotives?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-2088010191-1045172181=:25718-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:36:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Extended piston rods What was the purpose of extended piston rods on some steam locomotives? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:06:00 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Extended rods Hi, everyone, As I understand it, the extended rods (called tail rods on the PRR) and their covers were used starting around WW I and lasting into the mid-1920's. It was thought (incorrectly, it turns out) that with the higher steam pressures and greater stresses of more powerful locomotives that the forward rod extension was needed to keep the cylinder head properly aligned in the cylinder. There were also, in some cases, valve rod extensions and covers. The covers protected the forward rod extensions from the grit and grime and kept them lubricated. Once it was extablished from practice that the rod extensions were not necessary, they were gradually removed. Engines classes so equipped were (to my knowledge) E6, K4, I1, and L1, but I have no idea if every such engine received the tail rods. One lasting mark of this experiment in loco design was the cast steel pilots of these PRR engines, which had a rounded "cut-out" on each end so the rod covers would clear the pilot. Many engines into the 1950's had these pilots, long after the tail roads were gone. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:49:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PPR mile post My msystem went down this morning taking with it any reponses to my query as to whetehr there were any pictures of PRR mile posts on the Web, If any one did post anything, I would appreciate a reposting. Thanks md ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:03:43 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] tender hatches part deaux Hi All, I did actually mean a 210F84 tender in my last post. Thanks to all who replied. Every time I start a project, I wrestle with what extent of modifications I am going to do to it. I have decided to leave the 2 hatches as is, even without the antennas. I have to simplify where possible to get projects done! I can't ALWAYS languish in the minutia. I have 2 more tenders in route that I am leaving the antennas on. Who, besides the people on the list, and my friend Gus, knows about the hatch arrangement? Don't answer please! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:59:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Brunswick Green --part1_12d.22c12261.2b7d8b76_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/13/2003 2:36:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > I guess you an blame Pullman and Glidden Paint for > > introducing the verbage "Brunswick Green" into our little world. > The term actually goes back long before that. An 1867 book on I have includes Brunswick Green in a list of "the different colours [sic] used in painting." I believe the term is actually much older and is associated with the color of the uniforms worn by the Brunswick army during the Napoleonic Wars. If Glidden did indeed introduce ithe terminology to the Pennsy, they probably assumed everyone knew what this venerable color was. Lee Rainey --part1_12d.22c12261.2b7d8b76_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/13/2003 2:36:59 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:


I guess you an blame Pullman an= d Glidden Paint for
> introducing the verbage "Brunswick Green" into our little world.


The term actually goes back long before that. An 1867 book on I have include= s Brunswick Green  in a list of "the different colours [sic] used in pa= inting." I believe the term is actually much older and is associated with th= e color of the uniforms worn by the Brunswick army during the Napoleonic War= s. If Glidden did indeed introduce ithe terminology to the Pennsy, they prob= ably assumed everyone knew what this venerable color was.

Lee Rainey
 --part1_12d.22c12261.2b7d8b76_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:42:04 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green I wrote... >>I guess you an blame Pullman and Glidden Paint for introducing the verbage "Brunswick Green" into our little world.<< Then Lee writes > > The term actually goes back long before that. An 1867 book on I have includes Brunswick Green in a list of "the different colours [sic] used in painting." I believe the term is actually much older and is associated with the color of the uniforms worn by the Brunswick army during the Napoleonic Wars. If Glidden did indeed introduce ithe terminology to the Pennsy, they probably assumed everyone knew what this venerable color was. > > Lee Rainey< Correct, but my point was that the in Pennsy's documentation the term "Brunswick Green" is almost void until I discovered the Pullman documentation to actually tie "Brunswick Green" back to DGLE/DGLP, at least until much later. Then with the exception of Glidden I can't find a reference to "Brunswick Green" at all by other paint manufacturers, again the documents show up in the 60's. What I wish I could find is a Purchase Order from the PRR for a quantity of DGLE and a see what the person responsible for buying it called it. that would be like finding a four leaf clove, wouldn't we agree? Nonetheless, I think that the document is a good explanation of what the components were in DGLE/DGLP and sets aside all the "wives tales" about green being added to black to make DGLE/DGLP at least until someone can come up with a PRR "shop mixing chart" like that for the smokebox color. We know that buff was mixture of Chrome Yellow, White and Indian Red, but we just don't know what percentages of each, again the instructions are missing. The yellow scaling of a re-varnished locomotive that Bill Volkmer mentions was likely from the varnish seperating form a poorly prepared surface. I have seen photos of units with this condition, but mostly in the early sixties. But BilL is correct most units were not repainted they were re-varnished. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:03:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] tender hatches part deaux Hi All, I did actually mean a 210F84 tender in my last post. Thanks to all who replied. Every time I start a project, I wrestle with what extent of modifications I am going to do to it. I have decided to leave the 2 hatches as is, even without the antennas. I have to simplify where possible to get projects done! I can't ALWAYS languish in the minutia. I have 2 more tenders in route that I am leaving the antennas on. Who, besides the people on the list, and my friend Gus, knows about the hatch arrangement? Don't answer please! Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 1980 23:09:04 -0500 From: jconsoli@paonline.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green --------------14ACABBAD4010AF396D469B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greg, all, Here is at least one of those four-leaf (Brunswick Green) clovers you have been looking for: An excerpt from a document forwarded by Chief of Motive Power H.T. Cover on 10-9-47 gives information to the concerned parties in the purchasing department, etc., as to approved paints for purchase for the 1st major wave of diesels beginning to arrive on the property: “The attached letter listing the finishes for the exterior and interior of Diesel-electric locomotives contains some new items. These new items, with the brands of materials approved, are given below: Ref. 47-2626 – Enamel, Locomotive Finish Dark Green, PRR Shade, approved brand, (Ext. D.E. Locos,) E I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., Inc.: Dark Green Locomotive Finish. Interchemical Corporation: Brunswick Green Enamel. Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co.: Dark Green Loco. Finish LS-8696-A. The Thresher Varnish Co.: Dark Green Locomotive Finish.” The list then continued to specify specific manufacturers colors that were approved for purchase for the other "generic" color names being used for these locomotives. I have found other examples as well. Jack Consoli TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Correct, but my point was that the in Pennsy's documentation the term "Brunswick Green" is almost void until I discovered the Pullman documentation to actually tie "Brunswick Green" back to DGLE/DGLP, at least until much later. Then with the exception of Glidden I can't find a reference to "Brunswick Green" at all by other paint manufacturers, again the documents show up in the 60's. What I wish I could find is a Purchase Order from the PRR for a quantity of DGLE and a see what the person responsible for buying it called it. that would be like finding a four leaf clove, wouldn't we agree? > > Greg Martin > > --------------14ACABBAD4010AF396D469B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greg, all,

Here is at least one of those four-leaf (Brunswick Green) clovers you have been looking for:

An excerpt from a document forwarded by Chief of Motive Power H.T. Cover on 10-9-47 gives information to the concerned parties in the purchasing department, etc., as to approved paints for purchase for the 1st major wave of diesels beginning to arrive on the property:

“The attached letter listing the finishes for the exterior and interior of Diesel-electric locomotives contains some new items. These new items, with the brands of materials approved, are given below:

Ref. 47-2626 – Enamel, Locomotive Finish Dark Green, PRR Shade, approved brand, (Ext. D.E. Locos,)

E I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., Inc.:        Dark Green Locomotive Finish.

Interchemical Corporation:                        Brunswick Green Enamel.

Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co.:                        Dark Green Loco. Finish LS-8696-A.

The Thresher Varnish Co.:                        Dark Green Locomotive Finish.”
 

The list then continued to specify specific manufacturers colors that were approved for purchase for the other "generic" color names being used for these locomotives. I have found other examples as well.

Jack Consoli
 
 

TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote:

Correct, but my point was that the in Pennsy's documentation the term "Brunswick Green" is almost void until I discovered the Pullman documentation to actually tie "Brunswick Green" back to DGLE/DGLP, at least until much later. Then with the exception of Glidden I can't find a reference to "Brunswick Green" at all by other paint manufacturers, again the documents show up in the 60's. What I wish I could find is a Purchase Order from the PRR for a quantity of DGLE and a see what the person responsible for buying it called it. that would be like finding a four leaf clove, wouldn't we agree?

Greg Martin
 
 

--------------14ACABBAD4010AF396D469B5-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] slightly off topic - St Louis Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:28:50 -0500 I am going to be in St Louis starting this Sunday through early Thursday. I am going to a Prefabricated Bridge and Bridge Elements conference. I have Sunday and Monday (Presidents Day) free. I was wondering if any list members could give me some ideas for my free time, and/or may want to get together. I will not have a car so mobility will be an issue, and being a civil/structural engineer I do want to try to see the Arch, and the Eads Bridge. But any other ideas would be welcomed. Any replies should contact me off list Thanks, Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: [PRR] Locomotive color Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:38:55 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D42E.6B269530 Content-Type: text/plain I've being reading through the posts on the locomotive colors and just want to be sure I'm understanding this correctly. No PRR locomotives were painted black ? Switchers, GPxx's, Alco's...... All were this shade of Brunswick Green ? Thanks Kenny ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D42E.6B269530 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Locomotive color

I've being reading through the posts = on the locomotive colors and just want to be sure I'm understanding = this correctly.

No PRR locomotives were painted black = ?     Switchers, GPxx's, Alco's......
All were this shade of Brunswick = Green ?

Thanks

Kenny

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D42E.6B269530-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Locomotive color Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:58:05 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D431.18C4B1E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kenny, No black! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: KNesbitt@penncro.com [mailto:KNesbitt@penncro.com] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:39 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Locomotive color I've being reading through the posts on the locomotive colors and just want to be sure I'm understanding this correctly. No PRR locomotives were painted black ? Switchers, GPxx's, Alco's...... All were this shade of Brunswick Green ? Thanks Kenny ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D431.18C4B1E8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Locomotive color
Kenny,
 
No black!
 
Chris Chany
-----Original Message-----
From: KNesbitt@penncro.com [mailto:KNesbitt@penncro.com]
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:39 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Locomotive color

I've being reading through the posts on the locomotive colors and just want to be sure I'm understanding this correctly.

No PRR locomotives were painted black ?     Switchers, GPxx's, Alco's......
All were this shade of Brunswick Green ?

Thanks

Kenny

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D431.18C4B1E8-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:03:37 -0500 Listers, There has been much talk about how green DGLE is. I was looking at Pennsy Diesel Years 6 last night and on the back cover is a FA unit just washed or varnished followed by a well worn b-unit which looks allot lighter. Something else was interesting. On the page for Tyrone there is a coal drag being led by a FP-7 and a tuscan 5 stripe F b-unit. I didn't realize the PRR had any of these. Were the FP-7 ever 5 stripe tuscan? Then it makes sense otherwise what did the b-units run behind on what type of train? Also a nice shot of the Aerotrain. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Switchers Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:10:04 +0000 Most of the switchers were very low speed engines for a variety of reasons. Does anybody know how they were transported from Altoona and Juniata when built to the final destinations? Were they transported slowly under their own power or were there special flats they were loaded on? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:04:27 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features From: Jerry Britton I'm working on my passenger car pages and today am addressing the many varieties of heavyweight steel cars the PRR had. I just completed the index and will soon be working on the detail pages... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/passclass_xref_ps_hw.ws4d The above index includes all of the plans I know of, plus a count of how many of each type the Pennsy had. Of the 12-1's (12 sections, 1 drawing room), can you folks help out with the spotting features between the different versions? The PRR had the following 12-1's: (26) Plan 2410 (6) Plan 2410A (1) Plan 2410B ("Launfal") (3) Plan 2410E (4) Plan 2410F (18) Plan 2410H (1) Plan 2410I ("Stephia") (84) Plan 3410 (120) Plan 3410A (16) Plan 3410B (1) Plan 4240 ("Nutwood") (2) Plan 4699 If I read Fred Klein's web page (http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm) right, the Rivarossi 12-1 is Plan 3410B. His page reads "A detailed article about this car, how to convert the Rivarossi plan 3410-B car into the more common plan 3410 and 3410-A cars, and a list of all the roads running them with the variations in air conditioning types begins on page 37 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia vol. 1, and continues in vol. 2." Is there anyone out there that has this article that could re-write it for web publishing? Let me, and the list, know what you know! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Switchers Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:05:30 -0500 Norm, Depending how far they had to go, some were run under their own power at whatever speed they were allowed if they did not obstruct other traffic. If this was not possible, the main rods were removed and they were towed in a train to their destination. Special movement orders usually applied This was also the method used to get locomotives back for major shopping. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:10 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Switchers Most of the switchers were very low speed engines for a variety of reasons. Does anybody know how they were transported from Altoona and Juniata when built to the final destinations? Were they transported slowly under their own power or were there special flats they were loaded on? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Tuscan Red FP-7s Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:18:56 -0500 9832-38 were apparently delivered in the five stripe red paint scheme. Don't know the real reason. Perhaps Ken Douglas' new book explains. Will look that up. The 9835 was burned in the Logansport Enginehouse fire in 1958 and came into Altoona as a piece of charcoal and was (eventually) rebuilt painted DGLE. There were only two or three red ones still running in the 1958-62 time frame when I was actively shooting PRR diesels (9832-33 and the B unit). WDV. PS Did you ever notice that 9839 and up were built with larger fuel tanks and they stuck out through the skirts? They were the last F units aquired by the road. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Chany, Christopher Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:04 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Listers, There has been much talk about how green DGLE is. I was looking at Pennsy Diesel Years 6 last night and on the back cover is a FA unit just washed or varnished followed by a well worn b-unit which looks allot lighter. Something else was interesting. On the page for Tyrone there is a coal drag being led by a FP-7 and a tuscan 5 stripe F b-unit. I didn't realize the PRR had any of these. Were the FP-7 ever 5 stripe tuscan? Then it makes sense otherwise what did the b-units run behind on what type of train? Also a nice shot of the Aerotrain. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Switchers Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:06:31 -0500 This thread jars memories of when I was assigned as Asst. Foreman at Enola. My predecessor there had taken a promotion to an Asst. Foreman at Sunnyside and called one day saying that they (Sunnyside) were short one B-1 switcher and since we had a bunch stored at Enola could be ship him one? So we pulled the 5687 out of the dead pile and repainted it (DGLE fer sure) and raised the pan skyward. We had it out on the ready track (Yes there is a photo of this little caper in Pennsy Electric Years). A crew was called. When they showed up at the pit, we told them that they were to take the unit to Meadows under its own power at 15 mph max. They replied something to the effect, "You gotta be kidding! Our liver won't make it to Meadows in that grasshopper!" Oh Yes, the crew outlawed 16 hours later near Trenton. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Burnley, Charles Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 11:06 AM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] Switchers Norm, Depending how far they had to go, some were run under their own power at whatever speed they were allowed if they did not obstruct other traffic. If this was not possible, the main rods were removed and they were towed in a train to their destination. Special movement orders usually applied This was also the method used to get locomotives back for major shopping. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:10 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Switchers Most of the switchers were very low speed engines for a variety of reasons. Does anybody know how they were transported from Altoona and Juniata when built to the final destinations? Were they transported slowly under their own power or were there special flats they were loaded on? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ************************************************************************ **** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. ************************************************************************ **** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Switchers Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:27:09 -0500 My guess is they shipped them DIT with their little rods protruding out the top of the tender behind. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 12:07 PM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: RE: [PRR] Switchers I have your book which I would like to get autographed some day but that would be possible with an electric becasue the wires were there. What about steam with those little tanks and not much coal on board? It would seem that they could run out between tanks or coal towers? It would be relatively easy to run one up a ramp onto a flat car(s). I can't imagine bobbing along at 5mph for hours on end. They probably would have had more of their mileage life expended getting there then in service! norm Bell > This thread jars memories of when I was assigned as Asst. Foreman at > Enola. My predecessor there had taken a promotion to an Asst. Foreman > at Sunnyside and called one day saying that they (Sunnyside) were > short one B-1 switcher and since we had a bunch stored at Enola could > be ship him one? > > So we pulled the 5687 out of the dead pile and repainted it (DGLE fer > sure) and raised the pan skyward. We had it out on the ready track (Yes > there is a photo of this little caper in Pennsy Electric Years). A > crew was called. > > When they showed up at the pit, we told them that they were to take > the unit to Meadows under its own power at 15 mph max. They replied > something to the effect, "You gotta be kidding! Our liver won't make > it to Meadows in that grasshopper!" > > Oh Yes, the crew outlawed 16 hours later near Trenton. > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Burnley, Charles > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 11:06 AM > To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: [PRR] Switchers > > > Norm, > > Depending how far they had to go, some were run under their own power > at whatever speed they were allowed if they did not obstruct other > traffic. If this was not possible, the main rods were removed and they > were towed in a train to their destination. Special movement orders > usually applied This was also the method used to get locomotives back > for major shopping. > > Buzz > > -----Original Message----- > From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:10 AM > To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Switchers > > > Most of the switchers were very low speed engines for a variety of > reasons. > > Does anybody know how they were transported from Altoona and Juniata > when built to the final destinations? Were they transported slowly > under their own power > or were there special flats they were loaded on? Thanks, Norm Bell > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ************************************************************************ > **** > This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is > proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging > to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended > solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are > not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that > any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in > relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and > any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly > prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and > infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email > communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of > such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable > for any damages or other liability so arising. > ************************************************************************ > **** > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:50:30 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Extended piston rods --0-1870182830-1045245030=:17522 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all for the explainations of the purpose of tail rods. Especially interesting was the PRR tie to the cut outs on cast pilots. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-1870182830-1045245030=:17522 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all for the explainations of the purpose of tail rods.  Especially interesting was the PRR tie to the cut outs on cast pilots.  Ron


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Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-1870182830-1045245030=:17522-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:11:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car From: Jerry Britton During the 1950's, the PRR and the N&W interchanged a car on the New York City to Roanoke route. The car traveled on #1, the Pennsylvania Limited, from New York City to Harrisburg. At Harrisburg it was moved to #645, which traveled down the Cumberland Valley Branch. The two cars that protected this service were "McDowell County" (N&W) and "Mackinaw Rapids" (PRR). Does anyone know what liveries these cars were in? Was the PRR car standard PRR livery or N&W livery. Was the N&W car in N&W livery or PRR livery? Is there an N&W society online? Anyone know of photos of the "McDowell County"? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:40:02 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car Jerry: there ain't much difference between Tuscan and Tuscan. The N&W is found at: http://www.nwhs.org/ complete with a modeling and prototype e-mail lists. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "HOWARD WESLEYIII" Subject: [PRR] PRR 50' Boxcars Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:52:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C2D438.A8614800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What was the first year the PRR used 50' boxcars? ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C2D438.A8614800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What was the first year the PRR used = 50'=20 boxcars?
------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C2D438.A8614800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: EFP-15 (was [PRR] DGLE Paint) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:11:51 -0600 Hi Chris--There are other references but I am using Withers' PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. Six. EFP-15's (FP7) numbered 9832 - 9871, all A's. Purchased with them were F7B's 9832-B to 9858-B (even numbers only); PRR classified these also as EFP-15 because their faster gearing and steam generators differed from the EF-15a B units, but EMD retained the F7B. The first four A's and the first two B's were delivered in Tuscan with "five buff (yellow)stripes". The remainder were delivered in freight DGLE with single stripe. The EFP-15's were bought to augment the E's in passenger service, and when not required during passenger business surges were used in freight service. During the mid fifties the Tuscan units were based in Enola. The EFP-15's were delivered 4/52 thru 8/52, one month before the last F7 order, 9872 to 9879 A's and 9872 to 9878 (even only) B's. Unlike any earlier F's, they both share the Farr vertical vents and vertical grills, but the last F7's had the larger fuel tanks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:34:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car Jerry, There's a photo, b&w, in "More Classic Trains", page 159. As far as colors go, to be sure, N&W tuscan was similar, but I alwys thought, from photos, that it had a 'redder' tone to it than Pennsy's. I must admit though that I have a poor eye for color refinements, so will leave it to paint experts to come up with the actual paint numbers and sources. I know the N&W Pullman had the Pennsy striping, which I don't think the bulk of N&W cars did. Another joint N&W-PRR through car interchange that seems to have escaped general railfan notice were the through Chicago-Norfolk sleepers, coachs and sleeper-lounge cars that ran via Cinncy. Now that's a service I'd like to know more about. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:56:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 50' Boxcars > What was the first year the PRR used 50' boxcars? >From Rob's pages http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html The one of a kind X30, 70'6" internal length, was the first boxcar 50' or greater owned by the PRR. It was built 9/1931. The next class of this size was the 50' X32, built circa 1933. Happy Rails Bruce1 Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:55:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car --0-2000329840-1045256124=:12747 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Actually, since we've just had the "Brunswick Green" discussion again, some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along similar lines. I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself). Personally, I think the tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light. What is the general opionion out there? Ron "James L. McDaniel" wrote:Jerry: there ain't much difference between Tuscan and Tuscan. The N&W is found at: http://www.nwhs.org/ complete with a modeling and prototype e-mail lists. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-2000329840-1045256124=:12747 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Actually, since we've just had the "Brunswick Green" discussion again, some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along similar lines.  I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself).  Personally, I think the tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light.  What is the general opionion out there?  Ron

 "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net> wrote:

Jerry: there ain't much difference between Tuscan and Tuscan.

The N&W is found at: http://www.nwhs.org/

complete with a modeling and prototype e-mail lists.

Jim McDaniel

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


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Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-2000329840-1045256124=:12747-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:12:43 -0500 When placed side by each, there was a definite difference in the red color. Difficult to describe. I'd almost go so far as to say there was a scosh of brown tossed into the red paint. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of BPX29@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 3:35 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car Jerry, There's a photo, b&w, in "More Classic Trains", page 159. As far as colors go, to be sure, N&W tuscan was similar, but I alwys thought, from photos, that it had a 'redder' tone to it than Pennsy's. I must admit though that I have a poor eye for color refinements, so will leave it to paint experts to come up with the actual paint numbers and sources. I know the N&W Pullman had the Pennsy striping, which I don't think the bulk of N&W cars did. Another joint N&W-PRR through car interchange that seems to have escaped general railfan notice were the through Chicago-Norfolk sleepers, coachs and sleeper-lounge cars that ran via Cinncy. Now that's a service I'd like to know more about. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:04:49 -0500 Friends: The excessive green and blue look of some GG1s is starting to make sense. The oxidation of the paint pigment created a bluish cast (patina?) and the yellowish varnish applied over the top would yield a green patina (cast?). I've noticed these colors on motors through the years, but could never quite catch them on film, (especially B&W). Since I could always easily see the difference (the GREEN-NESS) between Brunswick Green, excuse me, DGLE and black in daylight, I paint my models so that there is a color difference between my DGLE locos and black, i.e., a noticeable green cast (patina?) to the DGLE, under the railroad lighting. AND, I am PROUD to have done this. (I always liked Verdi best anyway.) I try to have various shades of Tuscan red passenger equipment, too, to emulate the infinite variety of colors created by oxidation and weather, but that's for another thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green > I wrote... > > >>I guess you an blame Pullman and Glidden Paint for introducing the verbage "Brunswick Green" into our little world.<< > > Then Lee writes > > > > The term actually goes back long before that. An 1867 book on I have includes Brunswick Green in a list of "the different colours [sic] used in painting." I believe the term is actually much older and is associated with the color of the uniforms worn by the Brunswick army during the Napoleonic Wars. If Glidden did indeed introduce ithe terminology to the Pennsy, they probably assumed everyone knew what this venerable color was. > > > > Lee Rainey< > > Correct, but my point was that the in Pennsy's documentation the term "Brunswick Green" is almost void until I discovered the Pullman documentation to actually tie "Brunswick Green" back to DGLE/DGLP, at least until much later. Then with the exception of Glidden I can't find a reference to "Brunswick Green" at all by other paint manufacturers, again the documents show up in the 60's. What I wish I could find is a Purchase Order from the PRR for a quantity of DGLE and a see what the person responsible for buying it called it. that would be like finding a four leaf clove, wouldn't we agree? > > Nonetheless, I think that the document is a good explanation of what the components were in DGLE/DGLP and sets aside all the "wives tales" about green being added to black to make DGLE/DGLP at least until someone can come up with a PRR "shop mixing chart" like that for the smokebox color. We know that buff was mixture of Chrome Yellow, White and Indian Red, but we just don't know what percentages of each, again the instructions are missing. > > The yellow scaling of a re-varnished locomotive that Bill Volkmer mentions was likely from the varnish seperating form a poorly prepared surface. I have seen photos of units with this condition, but mostly in the early sixties. But BilL is correct most units were not repainted they were re-varnished. > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Extended piston rods Thanks to all for the explainations of the purpose of tail rods. Especially interesting was the PRR tie to the cut outs on cast pilots. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:55:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car Actually, since we've just had the "Brunswick Green" discussion again, some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along similar lines. I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself). Personally, I think the tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light. What is the general opionion out there? Ron "James L. McDaniel" wrote:Jerry: there ain't much difference between Tuscan and Tuscan. The N&W is found at: http://www.nwhs.org/ complete with a modeling and prototype e-mail lists. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:19:00 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] "Cast" pilots (was: Extended piston rods) Hello to all: It'd be great if we could retire once and for all the myth of "cast" pilots on PRR steam locomotives. From my understanding, the pilot *beam* (with the tailrod cutouts) was a casting, but the shaped and contoured postwar pilot design was fabricated of heavy-gauge sheet steel, not poured into molds like cylinder saddles and builders' plates. On some of them, the weld marks between the plates are plainly visible. Another example of a PRR "truth" that got started when it appeared in print somewhere and has been picked up and repeated until it takes on the appearance and respectability of fact. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ================================================= Ronald Di Orio wrote: > > Thanks to all for the explainations of the purpose of tail rods. Especially interesting was the PRR tie to the cut outs on cast pilots. Ron > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:24:29 EST Subject: [PRR] N&W 10-6 cars and N&W Tuscan Red --part1_11a.1e817ffc.2b7ec69d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The N&W Tuscan Red was a different shade than that used on the Pennsy. If you think DGLE vs Brunswick Green is a topic here then you need to get in on the N&W site and follow the TR discussion. Actually there were 2 shades used......one was used earlier (the one you need to know about for the 1950 10-6 cars) and the newer version which has a purplish shade to it. That's what you'll see on the #611 in excursion service and the NS steam fleet of cars. The N&W actually had two different 10-6's that were used in the New York service over the Pennsy. They went up the N&W Shenandoah Division from Roanoke to Hagerstown where the PRR picked them up. One series of cars was the S-2 class built by Pullman-Standard in 1948. There were only 3 cars in this series: McDowell County, Sussex County & Buchanan County. These cars were striped like PRR cars with a thin stripe above the windows and 2 stripes along the window belt. They were part of a 6-car order shared with the RF&P (King & Queen, King George and King William). The second group of cars were the Budd S-1 class. There were 20 cars built in 1949. They were named for colleges, universities and counties found along the N&W line. These cars were painted like the rest of the N&W streamlined cars with gold stripes along the top edge and lower edge of the sides. All of the cars had NORFOLK AND WESTERN on the letterboard area and small PULLMAN at both ends of the letterboards. The name of the car was centered along the area below the windows. They had no numbers or other markings. Interesting point: in 1965 or 1966 I saw the McDowell County in Roanoke in Illinois Central colors (brown & orange with yellow stripes & letters) but lettered N&W. It was used for a while with some IC trains. I believe at least one other S-1 sleeper was painted this way too. Hope this helps! Roger Huber --part1_11a.1e817ffc.2b7ec69d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The N&W Tuscan Red was a different shade than that= used on the Pennsy. If you think DGLE vs Brunswick Green is a topic here th= en you need to get in on the N&W site and follow the TR discussion. Actu= ally there were 2 shades used......one was used earlier (the one you need to= know about for the 1950 10-6 cars) and the newer version which has a purpli= sh shade to it. That's what you'll see on the #611 in excursion service and=20= the NS steam fleet of cars.

The N&W actually had two different 10-6's that were used in the New York= service over the Pennsy. They went up the N&W Shenandoah Division from=20= Roanoke to Hagerstown where the PRR picked them up.

One series of cars was the S-2 class built by Pullman-Standard in 1948. Ther= e were only 3 cars in this series: McDowell County, Sussex County & Buch= anan County. These cars were striped like PRR cars with a thin stripe above=20= the windows and 2 stripes along the window belt. They were part of a 6-car o= rder shared with the RF&P (King & Queen, King George and King Willia= m).

The second group of cars were the Budd S-1 class. There were 20 cars built i= n 1949. They were named for colleges, universities and counties found along=20= the N&W line. These cars were painted like the rest of the N&W strea= mlined cars with gold stripes along the top edge and lower edge of the sides= . All of the cars had NORFOLK AND WESTERN on the letterboard area and small=20= PULLMAN at both ends of the letterboards. The name of the car was centered a= long the area below the windows. They had no numbers or other markings.

Interesting point: in 1965 or 1966 I saw the McDowell County in Roanoke in I= llinois Central colors (brown & orange with yellow stripes & letters= ) but lettered N&W. It was used for a while with some IC trains. I belie= ve at least one other S-1 sleeper was painted this way too.

Hope this helps!
Roger Huber --part1_11a.1e817ffc.2b7ec69d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:19:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Cast" pilots (was: Extended piston rods) Hello to all: It'd be great if we could retire once and for all the myth of "cast" pilots on PRR steam locomotives. From my understanding, the pilot *beam* (with the tailrod cutouts) was a casting, but the shaped and contoured postwar pilot design was fabricated of heavy-gauge sheet steel, not poured into molds like cylinder saddles and builders' plates. On some of them, the weld marks between the plates are plainly visible. Another example of a PRR "truth" that got started when it appeared in print somewhere and has been picked up and repeated until it takes on the appearance and respectability of fact. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ================================================= Ronald Di Orio wrote: > > Thanks to all for the explainations of the purpose of tail rods. Especially interesting was the PRR tie to the cut outs on cast pilots. Ron > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:38:25 -0800 Subject: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping Hi, I have a few questions on PRR passenger car painting. (1) It is my memory that in the "early years" PRR painted the window sashes on P70 coaches a dark orange color. Can anyone give me some idea during which years this was done? In particular, would this have been a common sight in 1929? (2) Also during early years, PRR used paired gold-and-black horizontal pinstriping on cars. Again, can someone tell me approximate time span for this treatment? How prevalent would this have been in 1929? Would this have been likely to be seen with the above dark orange sash color or without? (3) Lastly, I believe there was a time when PRR painted their P70 cars in plain Tuscan Red with no pinstriping at all. Can someone confirm this? If so, what is the appropriate time period for this treatment? Thanks in advance... Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:38:25 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Microscale decal sheet 60-1141 Hi, I recently did some research work with the Microscale N-scale decal sheet 60-1141 "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Cars (1912-1947)" I assume a similar set is available from Microscale in HO, so this may be of interest to those working in this hugely oversized scale as well. I checked all the decal sheets supplied car names in Ralph Barger's "A Century of Pullman Cars: Alphabetical List", and determined the car type, plan, and lot numbers. Note Barger organizes the names into three separate lists, separating cars into "wood", "steel", and "lightweight" categories. I only checked the "steel" category, as the wood and lightweight cars are not my current interest. I did coincidentally notice that at least some of the car names are for lightweight cars. You will notice I have indicated many of the car names as "No listing" - slightly more than half of the car names! Probably many of these are lightweight cars. Why they appear in a decal sheet which states in it's title "Heavyweight" is beyond me, but don't simply assume all the cars in the list are heavyweights! Note that a few car names are for 12SecDr (commonly known as 12-1) sleepers. These cars are readily modeled in N using the Atlas/Riva sleepers. I believe HO modelers have a similar plastic car available to them. (Note: This list is best viewed using a monospaced font.) Kiwanis Club - 13ChRestLng 3992 6289 Sumac Falls - No listing Federal View - No listing Green Rapids - No listing Imperial Meadows - No listing Morning Brook - No listing Zanesville Inn - No listing Cabin Creek - 12SecDr 2410 4105 Colonial Flags - No listing Ravenna - 12SecDr 3410 4762 Conemaugh - 12SecDrCpt 2411 3800 Little Miami - No listing Harbor Cove - No listing Anderson - 26ChDr 2416 3804 Uniontown - BaggClubSmk 2136C 3660 Schuylkill - 12SecDr 2410F 4515 Cascade Brink - No listing Colonial Arms - No listing Clarion - No listing Olean - No listing Sunbury - 12SecDr 2410E 4367 Raccoon - No listing The following Pullman car names can be easily made from various subsets or combinations: Cove - 12SecDr 3410 4762 (assigned PRR) Colonial - 24ChDrSunrm 4002b 6385 (unknown assignment) Federal Hall - CptLngObs 3960 4889 (assigned PRR IIRC) - Claus Schlund ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 03:31:36 +0000 1.According to Tilp and Blardone orange sash is up to mid 1943 and predates color photography but one reference is to 1927. 2. same source - four black and gold stripes until 1934. 3.same source - no stripes 1935 until mid 1948. Info from PRR passenger car painting and lettering guide P.43 Norm Bell > Hi, > > I have a few questions on PRR passenger car painting. > > (1) It is my memory that in the "early years" PRR painted the > window sashes on P70 coaches a dark orange color. > Can anyone give me some idea during which years this was done? > In particular, would this have been a common sight in 1929? > > (2) Also during early years, PRR used paired gold-and-black horizontal > pinstriping on cars. Again, can someone tell me approximate time span > for this treatment? How prevalent would this have been in 1929? > Would this have been likely to be seen with the above dark orange > sash color or without? > > (3) Lastly, I believe there was a time when PRR painted their > P70 cars in plain Tuscan Red with no pinstriping at all. Can someone > confirm this? If so, what is the appropriate time period for > this treatment? > > Thanks in advance... Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:41:34 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features Hi Jerry, I've done the conversion in N scale - it's not too hard, altho maybe a little tedious. A while back I went to Newark NJ on business for a few weeks. Knowing I'd need something to do in the evenings at the motel, I brought ten of the Atlas/Riva cars to modify. I got them all done in terms of plastic surgery, and most are now painted and lettered and in service. I'll try to remember to bring one home (they are all at the club) and do a side-by-side scan on the scanner bed of a modified/unmodified car. Might take a day or two... - Claus > The PRR had the following 12-1's: > > (26) Plan 2410 > (6) Plan 2410A > (1) Plan 2410B ("Launfal") > (3) Plan 2410E > (4) Plan 2410F > (18) Plan 2410H > (1) Plan 2410I ("Stephia") > (84) Plan 3410 > (120) Plan 3410A > (16) Plan 3410B > (1) Plan 4240 ("Nutwood") > (2) Plan 4699 > > If I read Fred Klein's web page > (http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm) right, the Rivarossi 12-1 > is Plan 3410B. His page reads "A detailed article about this car, how to > convert the Rivarossi plan 3410-B car into the more common plan 3410 and > 3410-A cars, and a list of all the roads running them with the variations in > air conditioning types begins on page 37 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia > vol. 1, and continues in vol. 2." Is there anyone out there that has this > article that could re-write it for web publishing? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:44:10 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Altoona museum, money, further report Tonight I paid attention to the news on Altoona Ch 10 (WTAJ). State has granted 1.6 megabucks, feds "a similar amount", for a total of "over 3 million". Money is for 1361 rehab and construction of a roundhouse at the museum. A delegation from the museum intend to visit Steamtown with a view to working out a schedule for the 1361 to return to Altoona. There was talk of the importance of steam excursions as a way of increasing attendance at the museum and thus mproving its financial picture. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:54:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive color --part1_ab.29799fd8.2b7f13e3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/14/2003 8:46:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, KNesbitt@penncro.com writes: > No PRR locomotives were painted black ? Switchers, GPxx's, Alco's...... > All were this shade of Brunswick Green ? > > YES. Rich Orr --part1_ab.29799fd8.2b7f13e3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/14/2003 8:46:27 AM Eastern Stand= ard Time, KNesbitt@penncro.com writes:


No PRR locomotives were painted= black ?     Switchers, GPxx's, Alco's......
All were this shade of Bruns= wick Green ?



YES.

Rich Orr --part1_ab.29799fd8.2b7f13e3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:56:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint --part1_4c.182c6d5b.2b7f1454_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/14/2003 9:11:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > On the page for Tyrone there is a coal drag > being led by a FP-7 and a tuscan 5 stripe F b-unit. I didn't realize the > PRR had any of these. Were the FP-7 ever 5 stripe tuscan? Then it makes > sense otherwise what did the b-units run behind on what type of train? > Also > a nice shot of the Aerotrain. > Chris: The first three sets (if I recall the number correctly) of FP-7 and the accompanying F-7B's were tuscan five stripe when delivered. Rich Orr --part1_4c.182c6d5b.2b7f1454_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/14/2003 9:11:28 AM Eastern Stand= ard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes:


On the page for Tyrone there is= a coal drag
being led by a FP-7 and a tuscan 5 stripe F b-unit.  I didn't realize t= he
PRR had any of these.   Were the FP-7 ever 5 stripe tuscan? =20= Then it makes
sense otherwise what did the b-units run behind on what type of train? = Also
a nice shot of the Aerotrain.



Chris:

The first three sets (if I recall the number correctly) of FP-7 and the acco= mpanying F-7B's were tuscan five stripe when delivered.

Rich Orr --part1_4c.182c6d5b.2b7f1454_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:24:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale decal sheet 60-1141 From: Jerry Britton On 2/14/03 9:38 PM, "Claus Schlund" wrote: > I checked all the decal sheets supplied car names in Ralph > Barger's "A Century of Pullman Cars: Alphabetical List", > and determined the car type, plan, and lot numbers. Note Barger > organizes the names into three separate lists, separating cars into > "wood", "steel", and "lightweight" categories. I only checked > the "steel" category, as the wood and lightweight cars are > not my current interest. > I don't recall off-hand if I had already done this for the heavyweight cars, but I had already gone through all the lightweight cars... My Passenger Car database ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ ) has all the lightweight and heavyweight sleepers, parlors, horse cars, and scenery cars. It lists road numbers and plan numbers for all these. Additionally, it lists the decal sheet the car name appears on, if any. The database is very fast at looking up PORTIONS of car names. Give it a try. I am currently entering (off-line) all the coaches and head-end equipment which will be added to the online database shortly. The online database has actually been there for some time. Perhaps it doesn't get used by others as much as I use it myself. Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:11:33 EST Subject: [PRR] "For Sale" --part1_12d.22eacda4.2b7fb2a5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All; I have a few Pennsy diesels for sale along the some Micro-Trains cars.E-mail me at EMACGIS@aol.com if you have any interest and I will send you the list. THANKS E.J. --part1_12d.22eacda4.2b7fb2a5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable    Hello All;
      I have a few Pennsy diesels for sale along th= e some Micro-Trains cars.E-mail
   me at EMACGIS@aol.com if you have any interest and I will send=20= you the list.
   THANKS E.J. --part1_12d.22eacda4.2b7fb2a5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:14:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange --part1_12.2d2a73da.2b7feb84_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron writes.... > ...some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along > similar lines. I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm > dating myself). Personally, I think the Tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum > passenger cars is too light. What is the general opinion out there? Ron Ron, Jim and all, Tuscan, IMHO, seems to changed some over the years. So, I would have to ask what era are you modeling? If you have the book PRR Color Pictorial Vol. II by David Sweetland, look on pages 114 to 117 and look at the variations of Tuscan Red there are in just the mid 50's and early 60's. Although to my way of thinking the color is close on all units except that on BP20. The light plays games, but all things considered they colors are close. By the time the scheme is simplified in the mid to late 60's the color of Tuscan appears to become much dark, redder and seems to me to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate this late color.) But whatever floats your boat. Also look at these photos and think of them in relative size to what you are modeling, put the photos in perspective in your mind. Forget the PRR drift cards because color scales down. Now that being said, read on... Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally have no use for any commercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR equipment, unless I was modeling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment. I have always used Floquil BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what I call photo close. It is what I recommend to those who are painting any PRR Passenger equipment. Forget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the color. Floquil produces a TUSCAN RED as well and I have never found a use for it. The Bachmann color is much closer to what I have seen offered to date even on brass, just slightly too light. You are going to see more "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offered in the future. If I could send you all a JPEG of the R50B and post it here so all could see you will see what I am talking about. I would also love to share with you all Bruce's tremendous work on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while there... Damn it is nice! His work is very CLEAN. Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured shared access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am no computer guru... 3^) Greg Martin --part1_12.2d2a73da.2b7feb84_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron writes....

...some of us newcomers might l= ike to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along similar lines.  I always pai= nted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself).  Person= ally, I think the Tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too ligh= t.  What is the general opinion out there?  Ron


Ron, Jim and all,

Tuscan, IMHO, seems to changed some over the years. So, I would have to ask=20= what era are you modeling? If you have the book PRR Color Pictorial Vol. II=20= by David Sweetland, look on pages 114 to 117 and look at the variations of T= uscan Red there are in just the mid 50's and early 60's. Although to my way=20= of thinking the color is close on all units except that on BP20. The light p= lays games, but all things considered they colors are close. By the time the= scheme is simplified in the mid to late 60's the color of Tuscan appears to= become much dark, redder and seems to me to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate=20= this late color.) But whatever floats your boat.  Also look at these ph= otos and think of them in relative size to what you are modeling, put the ph= otos in perspective in your mind.  Forget the PRR drift cards because c= olor scales down. Now that being said, read on...

Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally have no use for any comm= ercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR equipment, unless I was mode= ling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment.  I have always used Floqui= l BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what I call photo close. It i= s what I recommend to those who are painting any PRR Passenger equipment. Fo= rget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the color. Floquil produces a TUSCAN= RED as well and I have never found a use for it.  The Bachmann color i= s much closer to what I have seen offered to date even on brass, just slight= ly too light. You are going to see more "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offe= red in the future.  If I could send you all a JPEG of the R50B and post it here so all could see you will see what= I am talking about. I would also love to share with you all Bruce's tremend= ous work on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while there... Damn it is nice!  His wor= k is very CLEAN.

Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured shared=20= access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am  no computer gur= u...  3^)

Greg Martin --part1_12.2d2a73da.2b7feb84_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:55:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3128169345_36758192 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/15/03 2:14 PM, "TGREGMRTN@aol.com" wrote: >=20 > Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured shar= ed > access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am no computer guru.= .. > 3^) >=20 Getting real close. I=B9ve got the directory serving working. You can download/view files that are posted. I=B9ve got the posting process about 80% there: it successfully uploads the file and refreshes the directory display= . Problem is that the file isn=B9t being put into the desired directory. It=B9s going into the server root. Publisher of the server s/w is taking a look. Soon! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS --B_3128169345_36758192 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car On 2/15/03 2:14 PM, "TGREGMRTN@aol.com" <= TGREGMRTN@aol.com> wrote:


Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured shared= access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am  no computer gu= ru...  3^)


Getting real close. I’ve got the directory serving working. You can d= ownload/view files that are posted. I’ve got the posting process about= 80% there: it successfully uploads the file and refreshes the directory dis= play. Problem is that the file isn’t being put into the desired direct= ory. It’s going into the server root. Publisher of the server s/w is t= aking a look.

Soon!
----------------------------------------= -----------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS --B_3128169345_36758192-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:12:35 -0800 Subject: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features Hi Jerry & list members, I'm posting this both to PRR-Talk (where the question originated) and to N Scale Varnish where this may also be of interest to an entirely different audience. Jerry asked about the Atlas/Riva 12-1 heavyweight sleeper, which is a plan 3410B car, and about possibilities to convert it to an earlier plan 3410 (or other plan) car. While there were a lot of plan 3410B cars, there was a HUGE number of plan 3410 (and earlier 2410) cars. So backdating these cars is something of interest to many of us. As I mentioned to Jerry, I've done ten cars now, and I'm quite pleased with the result. You an find an image of a modified and a unmodified car at http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/models/pass/3410/plan3410.jpg The modified car (in red, Paul Jones) has been altered to have the window arrangement of a plan 3410 car. Other plans (3410A and also later variants of plan 2410 cars, such as 2410D thru H) seem to me to be visually identical in window arrangement from the outside, so several plan types can be done this way. Basically, on the top pair of sides, enlarge the 2nd window to standard size. Then enlarge the third window to standard size, and also widen it by removing material on the rite hand side. Then reduce the window width by gluing in a sliver of 0.030" or 0.040" styrene, so it is restored to standard width. The net effect is to move the window to the right a bit. The lower pair of sides is the easy one - only enlarge the third window to standard size. I did this work with jewelers files and simple hand tools. It's not hard, just takes a little time. Questions about how to do this? Ask me. Good luck. BTW: Jerry, you listed: > > (1) Plan 2410I ("Stephia") This is new to me - I've never heard of a plan 2410I car. I thought the series ended at H. - Claus > Hi Jerry, > > I've done the conversion in N scale - it's not too hard, altho > maybe a little tedious. > > A while back I went to Newark NJ on > business for a few weeks. Knowing I'd > need something to do in the evenings at the motel, I > brought ten of the Atlas/Riva cars to modify. > I got them all done in terms of plastic surgery, and > most are now painted and lettered and in service. > > I'll try to remember to bring one home > (they are all at the club) and do a side-by-side scan > on the scanner bed of a modified/unmodified car. > > Might take a day or two... > > - Claus > > > > > The PRR had the following 12-1's: > > > > (26) Plan 2410 > > (6) Plan 2410A > > (1) Plan 2410B ("Launfal") > > (3) Plan 2410E > > (4) Plan 2410F > > (18) Plan 2410H > > (1) Plan 2410I ("Stephia") > > (84) Plan 3410 > > (120) Plan 3410A > > (16) Plan 3410B > > (1) Plan 4240 ("Nutwood") > > (2) Plan 4699 > > > > If I read Fred Klein's web page > > (http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm) right, the Rivarossi 12-1 > > is Plan 3410B. His page reads "A detailed article about this car, how to > > convert the Rivarossi plan 3410-B car into the more common plan 3410 and > > 3410-A cars, and a list of all the roads running them with the variations in > > air conditioning types begins on page 37 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia > > vol. 1, and continues in vol. 2." Is there anyone out there that has this > > article that could re-write it for web publishing? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:47:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2D511.EA0128A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron wrote:. ...some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion = along similar lines. I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red = (guess I'm dating myself). Personally, I think the Tuscan on the = Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light. What is the general = opinion out there?=20 And Greg Martin replied: Tuscan, IMHO, seems to changed some over the years. So, I would have to = ask what era are you modeling? If you have the book PRR Color Pictorial = Vol. II by David Sweetland, look on pages 114 to 117 and look at the = variations of Tuscan Red there are in just the mid 50's and early 60's. = Although to my way of thinking the color is close on all units except = that on BP20. The light plays games, but all things considered they = colors are close. By the time the scheme is simplified in the mid to = late 60's the color of Tuscan appears to become much dark, redder and = seems to me to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate this late color.) But = whatever floats your boat. Also look at these photos and think of them = in relative size to what you are modeling, put the photos in perspective = in your mind. Forget the PRR drift cards because color scales down. Now = that being said, read on...=20 Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally have no use for any = commercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR equipment, unless I = was modeling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment. I have always used = Floquil BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what I call photo = close. It is what I recommend to those who are painting any PRR = Passenger equipment. Forget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the = color. Floquil produces a TUSCAN RED as well and I have never found a = use for it. The Bachmann color is much closer to what I have seen = offered to date even on brass, just slightly too light. You are going to = see more "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offered in the future. If I = could send you all a JPEG of the R50B and post it here so all could see = you will see what I am talking about. I would also love to share with = you all Bruce's tremendous work on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while there... = Damn it is nice! His work is very CLEAN.=20 Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured = shared access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am no = computer guru... 3^) --------------------------------------------- OK, guys, I'll teel you what I've used and then run for cover..... I = have only painted a freelance gas-electric in N scale in PRR "Tuscan = Red", but what I've found looked closest to the color I remember on PRR = passenger equipment is a mixture of one half Floquil Tuscan Red and one = half Caboose Red! Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2D511.EA0128A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron wrote:.
...some of us = newcomers might=20 like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along similar lines.  I = always=20 painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself).  = Personally, I think the Tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars = is too=20 light.  What is the general opinion out = there? 
 
And Greg = Martin=20 replied:

Tuscan, IMHO,=20 seems to changed some over the years. So, I would have to ask what era = are you=20 modeling? If you have the book PRR Color Pictorial Vol. II by David = Sweetland,=20 look on pages 114 to 117 and look at the variations of Tuscan Red there = are in=20 just the mid 50's and early 60's. Although to my way of thinking the = color is=20 close on all units except that on BP20. The light plays games, but all = things=20 considered they colors are close. By the time the scheme is simplified = in the=20 mid to late 60's the color of Tuscan appears to become much dark, redder = and=20 seems to me to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate this late color.) But = whatever=20 floats your boat.  Also look at these photos and think of them in = relative=20 size to what you are modeling, put the photos in perspective in your = mind. =20 Forget the PRR drift cards because color scales down. Now that being = said, read=20 on...

Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally have = no use=20 for any commercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR equipment, = unless I=20 was modeling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment.  I have always = used=20 Floquil BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what I call photo = close. It=20 is what I recommend to those who are painting any PRR Passenger = equipment.=20 Forget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the color. Floquil produces a = TUSCAN=20 RED as well and I have never found a use for it.  The Bachmann = color is=20 much closer to what I have seen offered to date even on brass, just = slightly too=20 light. You are going to see more "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offered = in the=20 future.  If I could send you all a JPEG of the R50B and = post it here so=20 all could see you will see what I am talking about. I would also love to = share=20 with you all Bruce's tremendous work on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while = there... Damn=20 it is nice!  His work is very CLEAN.

Jerry if you could = develop a=20 portion of your server for some secured shared access files (for photos) = that=20 would be neat, but I am  no computer guru...  = 3^)
 
---------------------------------------------
 
OK,=20 guys, I'll teel you what I've used and then run for cover..... I have = only=20 painted a freelance gas-electric in N scale in PRR "Tuscan Red", but = what I've=20 found looked closest to the color I remember on PRR passenger equipment = is a=20 mixture of one half Floquil Tuscan Red and one half Caboose=20 Red!
 
Gregg=20 Mahlkov

 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2D511.EA0128A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:00:17 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping Norm said> According to Tilp and Blardone four black and gold stripes until 1934. Except the business cars, which kept the above scheme until 1953. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Tuscan Red Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:44:37 -0500 Gregg Mahlkov wrote: OK, guys, I'll teel you what I've used and then run for cover..... I have only painted a freelance gas-electric in N scale in PRR "Tuscan Red", but what I've found looked closest to the color I remember on PRR passenger equipment is a mixture of one half Floquil Tuscan Red and one half Caboose Red! Gregg , Actually, I have used this formula for my PRR equipment quite often. I use a little less Caboose Red than you, probably 3 parts Tuscan to 1 part Caboose Red and have been quite happy with the results. I agree with Greg Martin that colors are very subjective and the lighting is a very importan factor. I don't think any two individuals see any color the same way so I do what looks right to my eye. I generally weather everything to some degree, including passenger equipment so the base color rarely remains uniform over the entire model. One would be hard pressed do describe the original base color on some of my Tuscan head end equipment. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:51:28 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Structural Shapes Hi All, Does anyone have recent contact information or website for Structural Shapes? They made lengths of brass channel, angle, and various other shapes. I have an old catalog around here somewhere, but it is quite old. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:35:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Brichwood, Calhoun, Caryl and Delaware... --part1_169.1aba7ba6.2b8052db_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Yuze Gize.... Here is the answer as to the plan numbers for the type of 12-1 these cars were and the exact dates they were repainted into Brunswick Green. Interestingly enough these cars did not go to the PRR at the Pullman break up. Again Thanks Gary for the quick response... Bravo! Garry Spear writes... ============================================================================== ======= Greg, Birchwood was built as a 2410 and rebuilt to a 2410I on 6/24/31; AC was Pullman Mechanical (PM) on 4/22/1935; and there is a repaint date of 4/17/42. Caryl was built as a 2410 and rebuilt to a 2410I on 8/24/30; AC was Pullman Mechanical (PM) on 4/24/1935; and there is a repaint date of 9/12/40. Calhoun was built as a 2410E and rebuilt to a 2410I on 6/24/31; AC was Pullman Mechanical (PM) on 4/10/1935; and there are repaint dates of Brunswick green (3/11/42); Pull. Std. (3/13/46). Delaware was built as a 2410 and rebuilt to a 2410I on 8/27/30; AC was Pullman Mechanical (PM) on 3/13/1935; and there are repaint dates of Brunswick Green (3/31/42); Pull. Std. (7/24/45). None of these four cars were sold to the PRR. The above data is from Tom's Pullman CCRs. Garry Spear --part1_169.1aba7ba6.2b8052db_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Yuze Gize....

Here is the answer as to the plan numbers for the type of 12-1 these cars we= re and the exact dates they were repainted into Brunswick Green. Interesting= ly enough these cars did not go to the PRR at the Pullman break up. Again Th= anks Gary for the quick response... Bravo!

Garry Spear writes...
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Greg,
Birchwood was built as a 2410 and rebuilt to a 2410I on 6/24/31; AC was Pull= man Mechanical (PM) on 4/22/1935; and there is a repaint date of 4/17/42.
Caryl was built as a 2410 and rebuilt to a 2410I on 8/24/30; AC was Pullman=20= Mechanical (PM) on 4/24/1935; and there is a repaint date of 9/12/40.

Calhoun was built as a 2410E and rebuilt to a 2410I on 6/24/31; AC was Pullm= an Mechanical (PM) on 4/10/1935; and there are repaint dates of Brunswick gr= een (3/11/42); Pull. Std. (3/13/46).

Delaware was built as a 2410 and rebuilt to a 2410I on 8/27/30; AC was Pullm= an Mechanical (PM) on 3/13/1935; and there are repaint dates of Brunswick Gr= een (3/31/42); Pull. Std. (7/24/45).

None of these four cars were sold to the PRR.

The above data is from Tom's Pullman CCRs.

Garry Spear

 --part1_169.1aba7ba6.2b8052db_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:37:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car --part1_1d1.2cc9bc5.2b805383_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry writes... > Getting real close. YIPPEE! That will give us the ability to share on a whole new level. Greg Martin --part1_1d1.2cc9bc5.2b805383_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry writes...

Getting real close.


YIPPEE! That will give us the ability to share on a whole new level.

Greg Martin --part1_1d1.2cc9bc5.2b805383_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:00:52 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Structural Shapes Bill, Could you possibly mean "Special Shapes?" Try http://www.specialshapes.com/ MS Internet Explorer worked better for me than Netscape 4.04. Steve Bartlett Bill Lane wrote: Hi All, Does anyone have recent contact information or website for Structural Shapes? They made lengths of brass channel, angle, and various other shapes. I have an old catalog around here somewhere, but it is quite old. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:32:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR and CTC Hello list members, Does anyone know if the PRR had plans to CTC major portions of their mainlines? Examples: Phila to Harrisburg,Altoona to Pittsburgh,Fort Wayne to Chicago,etc. Was the PRR too large of a railroad to CTC? Or maybe to expensive. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:32:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR and CTC Hello list members, Does anyone know if the PRR had plans to CTC major portions of their mainlines? Examples: Phila to Harrisburg,Altoona to Pittsburgh,Fort Wayne to Chicago,etc. Was the PRR too large of a railroad to CTC? Or maybe to expensive. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:34:49 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Tuscan Red Mix Hi Gregg & list members, Gregg wrote: > OK, guys, I'll teel you what I've used and then > run for cover..... I have only painted a freelance > gas-electric in N scale in PRR "Tuscan Red", but > what I've found looked closest to the color I > remember on PRR passenger equipment is a > mixture of one half Floquil Tuscan Red and one half Caboose Red! Gregg: we are not alone! I use mixture of two thirds Floquil Tuscan Red and one third Caboose Red! I've never had any complaints from anyone about my cars yet! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:52:33 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2D52B.C807F570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have had DuPont mix the Tuscan for us from their original formula = except as IMRON for use on our equipment. All I can say is do not be = fooled by photographs that might "tickle" some far gone memories. I am = amazed at how the photographs of some of our "stuff" varies with the = lighting and the film. Bennett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com ; jlmcdaniel@esva.net ; = PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 = Interchange Car Ron writes.... ...some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion = along similar lines. I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red = (guess I'm dating myself). Personally, I think the Tuscan on the = Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light. What is the general = opinion out there? Ron Ron, Jim and all, Tuscan, IMHO, seems to changed some over the years. So, I would have = to ask what era are you modeling? If you have the book PRR Color = Pictorial Vol. II by David Sweetland, look on pages 114 to 117 and look = at the variations of Tuscan Red there are in just the mid 50's and early = 60's. Although to my way of thinking the color is close on all units = except that on BP20. The light plays games, but all things considered = they colors are close. By the time the scheme is simplified in the mid = to late 60's the color of Tuscan appears to become much dark, redder and = seems to me to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate this late color.) But = whatever floats your boat. Also look at these photos and think of them = in relative size to what you are modeling, put the photos in perspective = in your mind. Forget the PRR drift cards because color scales down. Now = that being said, read on...=20 Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally have no use for = any commercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR equipment, = unless I was modeling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment. I have = always used Floquil BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what I = call photo close. It is what I recommend to those who are painting any = PRR Passenger equipment. Forget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the = color. Floquil produces a TUSCAN RED as well and I have never found a = use for it. The Bachmann color is much closer to what I have seen = offered to date even on brass, just slightly too light. You are going to = see more "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offered in the future. If I = could send you all a JPEG of the R50B and post it here so all could see = you will see what I am talking about. I would also love to share with = you all Bruce's tremendous work on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while there... = Damn it is nice! His work is very CLEAN.=20 Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured = shared access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am no = computer guru... 3^) Greg Martin=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2D52B.C807F570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have had DuPont mix the Tuscan for = us from their=20 original formula except as IMRON for use on our equipment. All I can say = is do=20 not be fooled by photographs that might "tickle" some far gone memories. = I am=20 amazed at how the photographs of some of our "stuff" varies with the = lighting=20 and the film.
 
 
Bennett
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com= ;=20 jlmcdaniel@esva.net ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Saturday, February 15, = 2003 11:14=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: = [PRR] New=20 York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car

Ron writes....

...some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" = discussion along similar lines.  I always painted my cars with = Floquil=20 Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself).  Personally, I think the = Tuscan=20 on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light.  What is = the=20 general opinion out there?  Ron


Ron, Jim and all,

Tuscan, IMHO, seems to = changed=20 some over the years. So, I would have to ask what era are you = modeling? If you=20 have the book PRR Color Pictorial Vol. II by David Sweetland, look on = pages=20 114 to 117 and look at the variations of Tuscan Red there are in just = the mid=20 50's and early 60's. Although to my way of thinking the color is close = on all=20 units except that on BP20. The light plays games, but all things = considered=20 they colors are close. By the time the scheme is simplified in the mid = to late=20 60's the color of Tuscan appears to become much dark, redder and seems = to me=20 to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate this late color.) But whatever = floats your=20 boat.  Also look at these photos and think of them in relative = size to=20 what you are modeling, put the photos in perspective in your = mind. =20 Forget the PRR drift cards because color scales down. Now that being = said,=20 read on...

Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally = have no=20 use for any commercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR = equipment,=20 unless I was modeling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment.  I = have=20 always used Floquil BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what = I call=20 photo close. It is what I recommend to those who are painting any PRR=20 Passenger equipment. Forget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the = color.=20 Floquil produces a TUSCAN RED as well and I have never found a use for = it.  The Bachmann color is much closer to what I have seen = offered to=20 date even on brass, just slightly too light. You are going to see more = "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offered in the future.  If I = could send=20 you all a JPEG of the R50B and post it here so all could see you will see what = I am=20 talking about. I would also love to share with you all Bruce's = tremendous work=20 on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while there... Damn it is nice!  His work = is very=20 CLEAN.

Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for = some=20 secured shared access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I = am  no=20 computer guru...  3^)

Greg Martin=20
------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2D52B.C807F570-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] tuscan red vs scale size Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:54:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C2D545.21A95380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Would the "shade" of Tuscan Red not vary in a static lighting scenario = due to the size of the subject?? Wouldn't an N scale hwgt be painted = lighter than say my 1/29th scale hgwt?? Earl Myers PRR Canton District, 1944 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C2D545.21A95380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Would the "shade" of Tuscan Red = not vary in a=20 static lighting scenario due to the size of the subject?? Wouldn't an N = scale=20 hwgt be painted lighter than say my 1/29th scale hgwt??
Earl Myers
PRR Canton District,=20 1944
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C2D545.21A95380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:52:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car We have had DuPont mix the Tuscan for us from their original formula except as IMRON for use on our equipment. All I can say is do not be fooled by photographs that might "tickle" some far gone memories. I am amazed at how the photographs of some of our "stuff" varies with the lighting and the film. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com ; jlmcdaniel@esva.net ; PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] New York to Roanoke 10-6 Interchange Car Ron writes.... ...some of us newcomers might like to see a "Tuscan Red" discussion along similar lines. I always painted my cars with Floquil Tuscan Red (guess I'm dating myself). Personally, I think the Tuscan on the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars is too light. What is the general opinion out there? Ron Ron, Jim and all, Tuscan, IMHO, seems to changed some over the years. So, I would have to ask what era are you modeling? If you have the book PRR Color Pictorial Vol. II by David Sweetland, look on pages 114 to 117 and look at the variations of Tuscan Red there are in just the mid 50's and early 60's. Although to my way of thinking the color is close on all units except that on BP20. The light plays games, but all things considered they colors are close. By the time the scheme is simplified in the mid to late 60's the color of Tuscan appears to become much dark, redder and seems to me to pick up a violet hue. ( I hate this late color.) But whatever floats your boat. Also look at these photos and think of them in relative size to what you are modeling, put the photos in perspective in your mind. Forget the PRR drift cards because color scales down. Now that being said, read on... Okay, (and I am headed for my foxhole) I personally have no use for any commercially available TUSCAN RED paints for my PRR equipment, unless I was modeling the simplified pre-PC merger equipment. I have always used Floquil BOXCAR RED, YUP, BOXCAR RED to get the color what I call photo close. It is what I recommend to those who are painting any PRR Passenger equipment. Forget what Floquil calls it and FOCUS on the color. Floquil produces a TUSCAN RED as well and I have never found a use for it. The Bachmann color is much closer to what I have seen offered to date even on brass, just slightly too light. You are going to see more "FLOQUIL BOXCAR RED TYPE COLOR" offered in the future. If I could send you all a JPEG of the R50B and post it here so all could see you will see what I am talking about. I would also love to share with you all Bruce's tremendous work on his 2-8-8-2 I shot while there... Damn it is nice! His work is very CLEAN. Jerry if you could develop a portion of your server for some secured shared access files (for photos) that would be neat, but I am no computer guru... 3^) Greg Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:57:00 -0500 Claus: This is what I "think" I researched about the painting in this period. (Barring Old-timers disease) The early passenger cars were painted Tuscan red with olive trucks, olive underbody and mineral brown roof. Handrails and grabs were black, widow sashes were dark orange and extremely thin black and thin gold stripes were the norm. There were two paired stripes, one black and one gold, that ran down the car, through the horizontal center-line of all the windows, a pair under the windows at the belt rail and across the bottom of the car on coaches and dining cars. I don't remember if there were stripes above the windows. I believe the baggage and mail cars didn't have the orange sash or any stripes. Lettering was gold leaf with fine black outline, with car numbers at both ends, while baggage and mail cars had their info in the car center, under the window line. The early baggage cars had windows, too. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:38 PM Subject: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping > Hi, > > I have a few questions on PRR passenger car painting. > > (1) It is my memory that in the "early years" PRR painted the > window sashes on P70 coaches a dark orange color. > Can anyone give me some idea during which years this was done? > In particular, would this have been a common sight in 1929? > > (2) Also during early years, PRR used paired gold-and-black horizontal > pinstriping on cars. Again, can someone tell me approximate time span > for this treatment? How prevalent would this have been in 1929? > Would this have been likely to be seen with the above dark orange > sash color or without? > > (3) Lastly, I believe there was a time when PRR painted their > P70 cars in plain Tuscan Red with no pinstriping at all. Can someone > confirm this? If so, what is the appropriate time period for > this treatment? > > Thanks in advance... Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:32:05 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] GG1 4935 --0-854692241-1045398725=:80755 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack? Regards, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-854692241-1045398725=:80755 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack?
Regards, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-854692241-1045398725=:80755-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:38:00 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains --0-515859487-1045399080=:10472 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I was going through all the Pennsy books I have and I noticed that there are few photos were you can see a flat car on a freight train. Since PRR had a large number of flat cars, why do you find few flatcars on trains compaired with tank cars, gondolas? Where were flat cars stored between assigments? Where there specific yards where you could find them or where they just send to the yard nearest to their last shipping address? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-515859487-1045399080=:10472 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi, I was going through all the Pennsy books I have and I noticed that there are few photos were you can see a flat car on a freight train. Since PRR had a large number of flat cars, why do you find few flatcars on trains compaired with tank cars, gondolas?

Where were flat cars stored between assigments? Where there specific yards where you could find them or where they just send to the yard nearest to their last shipping address?

Thanks, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-515859487-1045399080=:10472-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 07:45:09 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] GG1 4935 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ags1XSRI9/Os1/aNAFHCVQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Because 4+9+3+5 = 21 BLACK JACK Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack? Regards, Geoffrey --Boundary_(ID_ags1XSRI9/Os1/aNAFHCVQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Because 4+9+3+5 = 21 BLACK JACK

 
Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack?
Regards, Geoffrey


--Boundary_(ID_ags1XSRI9/Os1/aNAFHCVQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] PRR station plans Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 08:27:48 -0500 Friends: I am looking for plans, diagrams, dimensions and descriptions and/or front and side view pictures of the small wood frame passenger stations PRR used on small branch lines such as the one at Wrightstown, NJ (Fort Dix). Thanks, Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR station plans Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 08:24:00 -0700 How different was this depot from the one at Pensauken? I've seen several photos of the Pensauken depot and and think it would make a nice model... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 08:27:48 -0500 "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > Friends: > > I am looking for plans, diagrams, dimensions and > descriptions and/or front > and side view pictures of the small wood frame passenger > stations PRR used > on small branch lines such as the one at Wrightstown, NJ > (Fort Dix). > Thanks, > > Lew > > > Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic > and Energy Systems. > Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water > systems. > Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and CTC Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 08:29:59 -0700 Dave and all, Neither. Although your first suggestion is close. The operations of a four-track mainline operating in mountain territory were way too complex to be solved using CTC. It was only in the later years (post-PRR) that traffic levels dropped to the point where it was capable of being utilized. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:32:49 -0500 (EST) zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello list members, > > Does anyone know if the PRR had plans to CTC major > portions of > their mainlines? Examples: Phila to Harrisburg,Altoona to > Pittsburgh,Fort Wayne to Chicago,etc. Was the PRR too > large of a > railroad to CTC? Or maybe to expensive. Thanks in > advance. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] digest formatting Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:03:56 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2D5B3.7B361780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; I have recently switched to the digest version. It comes thru with more = "encoding" or format instructions than actual content. I am not a = confuser whiz, so how does one get rid of this extraneous "schtuff"? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2D5B3.7B361780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 I have recently switched to the = digest=20 version. It comes thru with more "encoding" or format instructions than = actual=20 content. I am not a confuser whiz, so how does one get rid of this = extraneous=20 "schtuff"?
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2D5B3.7B361780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:03:08 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] GG1 4935 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_4XeDguftWMkUQ4Ic557PqA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT 4 + 9 + 3 + 5 = ? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Geoffrey Van Dooren Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 7:32 AM To: PRR talk list Subject: [PRR] GG1 4935 Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack? Regards, Geoffrey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --Boundary_(ID_4XeDguftWMkUQ4Ic557PqA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
4 + 9 + 3 + 5 = ?
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Geoffrey Van Dooren
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 7:32 AM
To: PRR talk list
Subject: [PRR] GG1 4935

Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack?
Regards, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
--Boundary_(ID_4XeDguftWMkUQ4Ic557PqA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Tuscan Red Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:59:21 -0500 The suggestions for mixing tuscan red with caboose red are good ones. I remember Pennsy Maroon as being a bit brighter, so my mix is tuscan and signal red, or, when it was available, Socony Red. This is using Floquil, still my paint of choice. Scalecoat? Excellent paint. I've not tried their Pennsy Maroon straight up recently, but to me it's a bit on the too dark side. I would also cut it just a bit with some bright red. Now I wish there were a tube of oil paint that was close to Pennsy Red. The closest i've found is Caput Mortuum Deep, a very rich, dark burnt red with some blue in it. With a slight addition of white, it looks close. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:55:43 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 Greetings to Greg, Jerry, and the List: As in the numbers on the faces of playing cards. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. > Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: > > 4 + 9 + 3 + 5 = ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf > Of Geoffrey Van Dooren > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 7:32 AM > To: PRR talk list > Subject: [PRR] GG1 4935 > > Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack? > Regards, Geoffrey > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:53:46 -0900 At the risk of sounding Anal-retentive, an Ace and Jack (or any face card) are BlackJack. 4+9+3+5 does equal 21. But so does 4+9+2+6 and 4+9+1+7...... When did it get that name? I figured it had to do with it's restored status or something notable it was involved in..... thanks. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" Cc: "Geoffrey Van Dooren" ; "PRR talk list" Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 > Greetings to Greg, Jerry, and the List: > > > As in the numbers on the faces of playing cards. > > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > > > > > Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: > > > > 4 + 9 + 3 + 5 = ? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf > > Of Geoffrey Van Dooren > > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 7:32 AM > > To: PRR talk list > > Subject: [PRR] GG1 4935 > > > > Hi, why is GG1 4935 called black jack? > > Regards, Geoffrey > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:39:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 From: "Jerry @ PRR" It's the only GG1, perhaps the only PRR loco, that totals 21. On Sunday, February 16, 2003, at 02:53 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > At the risk of sounding Anal-retentive, > an Ace and Jack (or any face card) are BlackJack. > > 4+9+3+5 does equal 21. > > But so does 4+9+2+6 > and 4+9+1+7...... > > When did it get that name? > > I figured it had to do with it's restored status > or something notable it was involved in..... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:36:44 -0700 Nah...Bernie Paul (of AHM and IHC fame) gave it that name when they imported a batch of Rivarossi HO GG1's painted up as the restored 4935. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:53:46 -0900 "Alex Charyna" wrote: > > When did it get that name? > > I figured it had to do with it's restored status > or something notable it was involved in..... > > thanks. > -alex > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:49:33 -0800 I think Bill has it right! I seem to recall the same story. Bennett Levin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Alex Charyna" ; "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 > Nah...Bernie Paul (of AHM and IHC fame) gave it that name > when they imported a batch of Rivarossi HO GG1's painted up > as the restored 4935. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:53:46 -0900 > "Alex Charyna" wrote: > > > > When did it get that name? > > > > I figured it had to do with it's restored status > > or something notable it was involved in..... > > > > thanks. > > -alex > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:09:05 -0900 That was the one that came in the wooden box, with the "plate" that said it was authorized by NPRC (Amtrak) ? I've got that one. I noticed it was very dark in color. Dare I say, blacker than DGLE? ;) Jerry, According to this roster, http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/roster.html , 4800->4938 are GG1s. There's quite a number that add up to 21 in that list. Of the current survivors, http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/survive.html 4890, 4917, and 4935 work out. thanks to all for the trivia.... -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Alex Charyna" ; "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 > Nah...Bernie Paul (of AHM and IHC fame) gave it that name > when they imported a batch of Rivarossi HO GG1's painted up > as the restored 4935. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:53:46 -0900 > "Alex Charyna" wrote: > > > > When did it get that name? > > > > I figured it had to do with it's restored status > > or something notable it was involved in..... > > > > thanks. > > -alex > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:09:31 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] RS2/3 w/ antennas Hi All Does anyone have an overhead side shot of a RS2 or RS3 with antennas? My most wanted is of the short hood with the equipment box etc. The long hood would be great too. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:09:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS2/3 w/ antennas Hi All Does anyone have an overhead side shot of a RS2 or RS3 with antennas? My most wanted is of the short hood with the equipment box etc. The long hood would be great too. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:55:59 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and CTC > Neither. Although your first suggestion is close. The > operations of a four-track mainline operating in mountain > territory were way too complex to be solved using CTC. ...also: as heavily equipped, and heavily designed, as much of the PRR was, there was little advantage to CTC. While CTC CAN be used on multitrack lines, it's advantages are most apparent on single track (hence: lighter trafficked) lines. PRR used CTC in a variety of places and did detailed investigations. cf RR Signaling & Communications thru the years... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:24:02 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Crestline roundhouse Annual Meeting and Open House From: William Ayers > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3128264642_1786543_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers, It has been a while since I have posted news about The Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society. During the past several months we have been busy organizing and planning the future. In March, the CRPS will be one year old! On the 15th of March, The CRPS will hold its Annual Meeting and Open House at the Crestline Public Library starting at 10am. I realize that most of you on this list do not live in the Crestline area, but you are welcome to attend. The Open House will get under way at 1pm and will include displays of PRR artifacts, original PRR documents and maps, lectures and slide shows. It promises to be an exciting event. If you have any questions, please contact me off list. Thanks. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com Board of Directors, The Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society PRRT&HS #6859 prrq2@prairieinet.net --MS_Mac_OE_3128264642_1786543_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crestline roundhouse Annual Meeting and Open House Listers,

It has been a while since I have posted news about The Crestline Roundhouse= Preservation Society. During the past several months we have been busy orga= nizing and planning the future. In March, the CRPS will be one year old! On = the 15th of March, The CRPS will hold its Annual Meeting and Open House at t= he Crestline Public Library starting at 10am. I realize that most of you on = this list do not live in the Crestline area, but you are welcome to attend. = The Open House will get under way at 1pm and will include displays of PRR ar= tifacts, original PRR documents and maps, lectures and slide shows. It promi= ses to be an exciting event. If you have any questions, please contact me of= f list. Thanks.
--
Bill Ayers
Remembering the PRR in Crestline
http://crestline.pennsyrr.com
Board of Directors, The Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Societ= y
PRRT&HS #6859
prrq2@prairieinet.net
--MS_Mac_OE_3128264642_1786543_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:54:58 -0700 Glad to hear that there's nuthin wrong with my memory!!! ;-) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:49:33 -0800 "Bennett Levin" wrote: > I think Bill has it right! I seem to recall the same > story. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:28:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] File Area for PRR-talk List Now Available From: "Jerry @ PRR" I've made some progress, but have not yet perfected, the File Area for the PRR-talk list. The URL is http://lists.dsop.com/prr/files/ There is a link to it from the PRR-talk list home page. The area currently seems to work fine in terms of serving a directory of all available files, and in allowing all files to be downloaded or viewed. However, it currently is only allowing upload of .txt, .htm/.html, and .gif files. For some reason it is not allowing upload of .jpg/.jpeg or .pdf files. I will continue to work on this. Please keep file sizes to 500K or less. It's not that I don't have the disk space, but most people will not want to download files larger than that. Let me know how it works out for you, if it meets the need, etc. Once I get it working for PRR-talk, I'll apply the code to my other lists. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR station plans Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 20:40:30 -0600 Hi Lew--You asked about "the small wood frame passenger stations PRR used on small branch lines such as the one at Wrightstown, NJ (Fort Dix)." Until 1957 I lived in Englishtown across the street from the depot. Unfortunately we never took photos, but this turned up a few months ago. http://www.nelliebly.com/html/englishtown.htm Although this predates my time there by a couple of decades, it is as I remember it. The photo is looking west. The locomotive is crossing a road from which there was access to the station parking lot and a small truck high loading dock on the west end of the building. Incidentally, you can see the house where my family lived on the right edge of the photo thru the trees. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS2/3 w/ antennas Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 20:47:58 -0600 Hi Bill--You wrote-- > > Does anyone have an overhead side shot of a RS2 or RS3 with antennas? My > most wanted is of the short hood with the equipment box etc. The long hood > would be great too. > None of the RS2's had antennas; also some of the RS3's didn't either. I have had difficulty finding short hood shots, even in Withers Vol. 1, but there is a decent one on p. 135 of Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968 by Douglas and Weiglin. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS2/3 w/ antennas Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:45:01 -0500 Bill: I hope that the picture that I sent you helped you on the long hood. You are right, those short hood photos are rare!! At any rate, I found another photo that may help you. In Withers Vol. 1, Page 25, bottom photo, No. 8822. That has a pretty good shot of what is on top of the short hood. This, in addition to the photo that I emailed you, should help you out. Good luck! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (where we are keeping our brass monkeys in tonight!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hoxie" To: "Bill Lane" ; "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] RS2/3 w/ antennas > Hi Bill--You wrote-- > > > > Does anyone have an overhead side shot of a RS2 or RS3 with antennas? My > > most wanted is of the short hood with the equipment box etc. The long hood > > would be great too. > > > None of the RS2's had antennas; also some of the RS3's didn't either. I > have had difficulty finding short hood shots, even in Withers Vol. 1, but > there is a decent one on p. 135 of Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968 by Douglas and > Weiglin. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:34:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 4935 I always assumed it was an AHM promotional blurb resulting from the first model GG1 to actually be painted DGLE ("black":-)) instead of the usual varying shades of incorrect and brighter greens the previous several thousand were painted. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:58:26 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping According to PRR blueprint # 64547 A --Passenger Car Lettering Diagram -- for BM70c/e/g, dated 4-30-20, no stripes, "dark orange" window sashes and "METALLIC brown" roof with the remainder as you specified. And gold leaf lettering "outlined in 1/16" black." This drawing supersedes earlier ones that allowed both PENNSYLVANIA and PENNSYLVANIA LINES. 64547A it self became obsolete 3-24-21 for ?? reasons. Hope this helps. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva where PENNSYLVANIA superseded NYP&N about the same time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:46:43 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] GG1 numbers Folks, Just a little reminder...all GG1s were NOT the same. When modeling a DROP COUPLER pilot GG1 (all current and pending non-brass releases, AFIK) you want to make sure that your numbers are 4859 or higher since this feature is characteristic of the second production run of GG1s... 'nuff said Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:21:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains >Hi, I was going through all the Pennsy books I have and I noticed that >there are few photos were you can see a flat car on a freight train. Since >PRR had a large number of flat cars, why do you find few flatcars on >trains compaired with tank cars, gondolas? Hi Geoffrey, Sorry, but I'm afraid that your initial assumption is wrong . Take a look at my web page for the top 30 car classes in 1943 and 1945 at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html These classes account for approximately 225,000 cars, of which only two flat car classes are note, the F30a (1500) and the FM (2016), for a whopping great total of 3516, or approximately 1.6% of the fleet. That's 1.6 cars/100 cars, so one or two flats per 100 car train is about right. Note that I recognize that the above number is really PRR flats/PRR cars, and the PRR car percentage on the PRR hovers at 50%, but that actually works out to about 1-2 flat cars (all roads)/100 cars (all roads). Now the PRR did have a number of different flat car classes, many of which have been produced in brass (HO scale), but the rest of these classes were even smaller in number and therefore do not affect the totals. Of note too is the fact that late in WWII, the PRR added about 1100 MORE flats in classes FGR and FGRA by cutting down gons...the need was so great!! BTW, on a national level, in 1950 the flat car fleet looked like this: (from Dave Nelson) road totl Pct. Cum Pct. SP 5448 9.67% 9.67% CN 4743 8.42% 18.10% - can't count these...stay in Canada mostly CP 4199 7.46% 25.55% - can't count these...stay in Canada mostly CNW 3412 6.06% 31.61% PRR 2952 5.24% 36.85% - Note that this is down from 4500+ in late '45! MILW 2904 5.16% 42.01% UP 2857 5.07% 47.09% GN 2368 4.21% 51.29% ATSF 2180 3.87% 55.16% NP 1869 3.32% 58.48% IC 1520 2.70% 61.18% SOU 1474 2.62% 63.80% NYC 1356 2.41% 66.20% CBQ 1341 2.38% 68.59% RI 1250 2.22% 70.81% LN 1162 2.06% 72.87% EJE 902 1.60% 74.47% MP 794 1.41% 75.88% ACL 738 1.31% 77.19% SAL 581 1.03% 78.22% SOO 548 0.97% 79.20% SLSF 473 0.84% 80.04% >Where were flat cars stored between assigments? Where there specific yards >where you could find them or where they just send to the yard nearest to >their last shipping address? Car service rules were VERY specific, and except in WWII when they were suspended, they were generally followed. Usually a railroad had to load the available foreign cars whose route would most closely take them home. Based on the fleet size, flat cars did not spend lots of time idle. As with any car type, if there was no load, it would be routed to the home road, empty, where it would sit in a yard or on a storage siding until an agent found a load for it, or the Yard Master got tired of working around it and stuck some other YM with the car. Special duty flats (such as transformer flats) may have had specific routing instructions, if the demand was high enough, however, most of the time it was just the next, nearest, most suitable car. BTW, empty flat cars produced the same headaches for operations in real life as they do for modelers...the location in the train and the actions of that train need to be strictly monitored or they go on the ground! Empties are often at the back to prevent stringlining. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:54:21 -0500 To the group. Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 06:51:38 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] N6 cabins east of Pittsburgh, new datum In the closing years the 20th century, in November of 1999: --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > By the 1960's, some of the > wood-sheathed N6B's > (originally only used on the Panhandle Div, and then > later the standard cabin > of Lines West) had migrated onto Lines East as local > and work cabins. To which I said: Rather earlier, I think. Often saw an N6B on the local freight which served the team tracks and Ligonier Valley interchange in Latrobe, PA. That was certainly before 1948 (for we moved away from Railroad St. in '48). I now say: I'm reading "Set Up Running". Page 282, speaking of the cabin on his father's Williamsport, PA yard job: "It was called a 'Mae West' because it was an N6 model, with an offset cupola." This appears to have been in the last half of 1937 or first half of 1938. So, an N6 well east of Pittsburgh before WW2. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:21:52 -0500 Friends: The PRR metallic brown color looks exactly like Floquil color's mineral brown, the color the ATSF used on their prewar caboose fleet. Floquil's Depot Olive is a good match for the underbody and truck details. I use engine black with a little white for the black parts, and reefer orange with a little Tuscan red and dark blue to make it a darker orange, for the sash. Thanks for the heads up about mail car window sash being painted orange. I'm fairly certain that the baggage cars were not striped or had orange sash. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" ; "Claus Schlund" Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] window sashes & pinstriping > According to PRR blueprint # 64547 A --Passenger Car Lettering Diagram > -- for BM70c/e/g, dated 4-30-20, no stripes, "dark orange" window > sashes and "METALLIC brown" roof with the remainder as you specified. > And gold leaf lettering "outlined in 1/16" black." > > This drawing supersedes earlier ones that allowed both PENNSYLVANIA and > PENNSYLVANIA LINES. 64547A it self became obsolete 3-24-21 for ?? > reasons. > > Hope this helps. > > Jim McDaniel, Delmarva where PENNSYLVANIA superseded NYP&N about the > same time. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/12/03 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:38:20 -0500 On 02/11/03. RR wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:10 AM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/12/03 Subject: PRR COLORS From: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:35:20 EST As an Ohio boy, I could never figure out "Dulux" gold - NOT Delux - It seemed that it was just the designator between real gold and gold paint. The dawn finally came some years ago when "Dulux" paint company bought out Sherwin-Williams. "Dulux" was the Manufacturer of the "gold" paint specified. RR This would be news not only to Sherwin-Williams, but also to another large paint company in Deleware. I have been sitting back enjoying the unfolding of yet another DGLE thread, without comment. However, I must comment on Dulux before this information becomes an urban ledgend. According to the 1953 Trade-Mark Directory, published by the National Paint, Varnish and Lacquer Association, Inc., Dulux is a registered trademark of E.I. duPont de Nemours & Co. (Dupont), Wilmington Delaware. The 1969 edition of the Directory lists the trademark date as 09/09/28. As for the Dulux Paint Company buying out Sherwin-Williams (the largest paint company in the U.S.), let me know your reference. I feel cheated, if I don't learn something new each day. Carl P. Izzo, PRRT&HS # 832 Industrial Paint Consultant ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:30:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Questions --part1_163.1bf7430e.2b826829_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of basic questions, and please excuse my ignorance. 1. Why do the messages on this list come through in with a colored background? 2. Why are so many of the messages repeated as if individuals are replying and sending several old messages with the reply? Al --part1_163.1bf7430e.2b826829_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of basic questions, and please excuse my igno= rance.

1. Why do the messages on this list come through in with a colored backgroun= d?

2. Why are so many of the messages repeated as if individuals are replying a= nd sending several old messages with the reply?

Al --part1_163.1bf7430e.2b826829_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:57:31 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR station plans The Englishtown station looks very much like some of the remaining NYP&N/PRR stations here in Delmarva. The siding here is clapboard and there is no cross gable over the bay window but the windows, doors with transom, general size, etc. are very similar...as one would expect since many NYP&N stations were built by A.J. Cassatt in 1886-7. I have seen photos of the local stations in Board & batten siding as well as "half" stations with only one waiting room and an office instead of the standard two (white-colored or men-women is open to debate) plus central office like Englishtown. The local stations were passenger only though some had attached freight platforms. I would post a photo or two to the new file area but mine are jpegs and I don't seem to be able to convert them to gifs. I will email a few directly if you wish. Jim McDaniel, building miniatures of some Delmarva stations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:58:35 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions Welcome to the internet... > 1. Why do the messages on this list come through in with a colored > background? Possibly a local set up thing on 'that' end. Appear here in B&W 'plaintext'. > 2. Why are so many of the messages repeated as if individuals are > replying and sending several old messages with the reply? Various reasons: Some folks get the list in digest format, and don't trim unneeded text. Some folk get it in single message format, and don't trim unneeded text. Some previous text left in adds to the understanding. The 'exact' definition of 'unneeded' is TRICKY. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:04:27 +0000 Wouldn't be a great addition for someone to market a pair of drive truck frames with the fabricated pilot. To the best of my knowledge that was the only difference. That would be a really easy conversion. Norm Bell > Folks, > > Just a little reminder...all GG1s were NOT the same. When modeling a DROP > COUPLER pilot GG1 (all current and pending non-brass releases, AFIK) you > want to make sure that your numbers are 4859 or higher since this feature > is characteristic of the second production run of GG1s... > > 'nuff said > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:27:51 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Norm sez: >Wouldn't be a great addition for someone to market a pair of drive truck >frames >with the fabricated pilot. To the best of my knowledge that was the only >difference. That would be a really easy conversion. Indeed! It would open up some great possibilities, since there was a concerted effort to use (and regrear) the low # GG1s for freight duties. I'm waiting to see what the BLI loco looks like before dealing with this. Hopefully, it will sit a little lower than the Premier version, although I am concerned due to the advertised 18" radius...Of course, there are lots of other little detail variants, but they are era, not production specific. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 12:33:31 EST Subject: [PRR] AHM GG-1 Repower Has anyone experience in repowering the AHM GG-1's. I've a couple of units with one of the motors burnt out. Are there any simple "bolt-in" replacements? Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:18:41 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Greetings to Bruce, Jerry and the List: Almost. The GG1s with the flat pilot were in a group of 57. The prototype was 4800, the first 57 were 4801 through 4857, and the streamlined drop pilots began with 4858. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Bruce F. Smith wrote: > > Folks, > > Just a little reminder...all GG1s were NOT the same. When modeling a DROP > COUPLER pilot GG1 (all current and pending non-brass releases, AFIK) you > want to make sure that your numbers are 4859 or higher since this feature > is characteristic of the second production run of GG1s... > > 'nuff said > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Concor HO sale Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:19:31 +0000 http://www.con-cor.com/yardsale/bodyshel.htm This URL will take you to Concor's sale page. They are selling E7 shells for $2.50 each in DGLE or Red with a sigle stripe and detail kits for $1.50 each. There are several other shells they are unloading including SD35's but none in PRR. Thought this might interest someone. They also have N gauge sales items listed under Yard sale from teh previous page at their web site. N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] AHM GG-1 Repower Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:10:15 -0500 I used a right angle drive and a Swiss can motor with a gearbox attached (military surplus) to repower mine. I found the right angle drives with 2.4 mm shafts at the train show in Timonium. Motors were available through one of the PRR modelers in Delaware back in 1980. (can't remember who now) Bought a bunch at one time. Soldered these to the AHM worm using brass tubing as sleeves to adjust for the difference in shaft diameter. The motor shaft was ACC ed to the RA drive using brass tubing again. (I wanted to be able to remove the motor easily but still have a sturdy connection) The motor was correctly aligned and glued in place with RTV silicon. I put about 10 lbs of lead around everything for traction. These motors, like the prototypes, pull anything! Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: [PRR] AHM GG-1 Repower > Has anyone experience in repowering the AHM GG-1's. I've a couple of units > with one of the motors burnt out. Are there any simple "bolt-in" > replacements? Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:56:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Shades of the PENNSY --part1_140.ae6ffa9.2b82b48f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, In this time of Amtrak and NS bashing I just wanted to pass on this bit of info. Today Feb 17 2003, train # 40 the eastbound Three Rivers arrived in Altoona PA at 1:18PM 40 minutes late...Today we had had over a foot of snow and the weather only worsened as the train headed east. The train arrived in Harrisburg PA at 3:38PM 18 minutes early!!! The total running time was 2hr 20 minutes with stops at Huntington and Lewistown. The train was sold out. The PENNSY could not have done better! Bill --part1_140.ae6ffa9.2b82b48f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone,
            &nbs= p;         In this time of Amtrak an= d NS bashing I just wanted to pass on this bit of info.  Today Feb 17 2= 003, train # 40 the eastbound Three Rivers arrived in Altoona PA at 1:18PM&n= bsp; 40 minutes late...Today we had had over a foot of snow and the weather=20= only worsened as the train headed east.  The train arrived in Harrisbur= g PA at 3:38PM 18 minutes= early!!!  The tota= l running time was 2hr 20 minutes with stops at Huntington and Lewistown. Th= e train was sold out. The PENNSY could not have d= one better!
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            = Bill --part1_140.ae6ffa9.2b82b48f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:41:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/15/03 --part1_6f.355fd749.2b82bf14_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/03 9:42:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Re: [PRR-Modeling] Tuscan Red > by "Jerry Breon" List, IMHO not only the prototype but model paints as well, especially Floquil, have changed. Many years ago, I queried Floquil about the color formula's in several of their paints changing. They replied, emphatically, that nothing had changed. As my Dad used to say "horse feathers"!!! I used different containers of Floquil tuscan and reefer orange, and another color that slips my mind right now, several years apart. They are/were, without a doubt, different! I suspect the formula's changed, and thus the color, when they had to remove the lead content from the paint. Bob Martin --part1_6f.355fd749.2b82bf14_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/15/0= 3 9:42:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Re: [PRR-Modeling] Tuscan R= ed
         by "Jerry Breon"=20= <jbreon@email.msn.com>


List,

IMHO not only the prototype but model paints as well, especially Floquil= , have changed.  Many years ago, I queried Floquil about the color form= ula's in several of their paints changing.  They replied, emphatically,= that nothing had changed.  As my Dad used to say "horse feathers"!!! &= nbsp;I used different containers of Floquil tuscan and reefer orange, and an= other color that slips my mind right now, several years apart.  They ar= e/were, without a doubt, different!  I suspect the formula's changed, a= nd thus the color, when they had to remove the lead content from the paint.

Bob Martin --part1_6f.355fd749.2b82bf14_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:18:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains Thanks to Bruce for providing the statistics. One surprise to me was the SP total. I'm going to ask one of the other lists what they were mostly used for. I always thought the PRR was No.1, C&NW No. 2. I believe Pennsy did have the most special duty flats. During my days with the power transformer division of Allis-Chalmers, though it was on the A-C Belt Line between the C&NW and Milwaukee Road, it seemed like almost all of our loads were on Pennsy cars. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:25:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers List, Also, please remember that the frames and bodies were interchangeable and in later years there is at least one example of a drop number having a non-drop frame. Does anyone know if the Pennsy strictly adhered to making sure that the body always went back on its original frame? If not, you might be able to find photos in the era you are modeling of your favorite GG1 not having the frame you expect. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:04:18 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Shades of the PENNSY This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0gb+GhaO50aSNTViQhKAuA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bill, Thanx for the Train 40 performance info. It's nice that Amtrak is holding close to ca. 1960 PRR running times between Altoona and Harrisburg, despite the snow. However, that was close to the PRR's schedule time, depending on how many stops between. What's the Amtrak schedule time between both cities? It's got to be at least the 2:20 running time plus the 18 minutes early arrival time or 2:38. What's the published arrival and departure times at Altoona? PRR's was typically 8-15 minutes apart depending on headend station work by train. Seems like a lot of slop built into the schedule if it arrived at Altoona 40 minutes late and still arrived Harrisburg 18 minutes early. Unless there's a 40 minute dwell time in Altoona. Al --Boundary_(ID_0gb+GhaO50aSNTViQhKAuA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Bill,
 
Thanx for the Train 40 performance info.  It's nice that Amtrak is holding close to ca. 1960 PRR running times between Altoona and Harrisburg, despite the snow. However, that was close to the PRR's schedule time, depending on how many stops between. What's the Amtrak schedule time between both cities? It's got to be at least the 2:20 running time plus the 18 minutes early arrival time or 2:38. 
What's the published arrival and departure times at Altoona?  PRR's was typically 8-15 minutes apart depending on headend station work by train.
Seems like a lot of slop built into the schedule if it arrived at Altoona 40 minutes late and still arrived Harrisburg 18 minutes early. Unless there's a 40 minute dwell time in Altoona.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_0gb+GhaO50aSNTViQhKAuA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:41:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Arnold Rapido GG-1 --part1_17f.171acefd.2b830558_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question concerning the AHM GG-1 re-powering reminds me to ask if anyone has any tips for making the n scale Arnold Rapido GG-1 run any better? Mine are several years old and are just being put back into operation after resting while I built a G Scale outdoor railroad including the PRR LGB mogul, which is not a bad representation of the Waynesburg and Washington's locomotive (except for the maroon paint)! Al Guckes --part1_17f.171acefd.2b830558_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The question concerning the AHM GG-1 re-powering remin= ds me to ask if anyone has any tips for making the n scale Arnold Rapido GG-= 1 run any better? Mine are several years old and are just being put back int= o operation after resting while I built a G Scale outdoor railroad  inc= luding the PRR LGB mogul, which is not a bad representation of the Waynesbur= g and Washington's locomotive (except for the maroon paint)!

Al Guckes --part1_17f.171acefd.2b830558_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:17:45 -0800 From: Steve B Subject: Re: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains Bruce F. Smith wrote: >BTW, on a >national level, in 1950 the flat car fleet looked like this: (from Dave >Nelson) >road totl Pct. Cum Pct. >SP 5448 9.67% 9.67% >CN 4743 8.42% 18.10% - can't count these...stay in Canada mostly >CP 4199 7.46% 25.55% - can't count these...stay in Canada mostly >CNW 3412 6.06% 31.61% >PRR 2952 5.24% 36.85% - Note that this is down from 4500+ in late '45! >MILW 2904 5.16% 42.01% >UP 2857 5.07% 47.09% >GN 2368 4.21% 51.29% >ATSF 2180 3.87% 55.16% >NP 1869 3.32% 58.48% >IC 1520 2.70% 61.18% >SOU 1474 2.62% 63.80% >NYC 1356 2.41% 66.20% >CBQ 1341 2.38% 68.59% >RI 1250 2.22% 70.81% >LN 1162 2.06% 72.87% >EJE 902 1.60% 74.47% >MP 794 1.41% 75.88% >ACL 738 1.31% 77.19% >SAL 581 1.03% 78.22% >SOO 548 0.97% 79.20% >SLSF 473 0.84% 80.04% > This listing causes me to ask if there are sources, online or in books, where modelers can get an idea of the makeup of PRR freight trains with the number of cars by type and foreign railroad name? I'm working on modeling the PRR in Indiana. Is there a place I can go that will give me an idea of the percentage of foreign road cars by type in a typical PRR freight in central Indiana around 1950? I could by a boxcar for each of the roads listed above, but would putting them in one train be accurate? Regards and thanks for your help, Steve Beals Los Angeles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 05:46:18 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse --0-115763999-1045575978=:31350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Harry: Thank you for the post. I live in Baltimore and saw the dome from a distance on the way in to work this morning. According to the local radio, about 2/3 of the roof has collapsed and there has been extensive damage to the collection. Randy Harrison Harry Fitch wrote:To the group. Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-115763999-1045575978=:31350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Harry:

Thank you for the post. I live in Baltimore and saw the dome from a distance on the way in to work this morning. According to the local radio, about 2/3 of the roof has collapsed and there has been extensive damage to the collection.

Randy Harrison

 Harry Fitch <prrk4s@msn.com> wrote:

To the group.

Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff
fraternity.
Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time
that I am posting.

During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum
roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still
intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is
about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the
building at this time.

Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly
under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It
was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's
roundhouse.

Harry Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com



--------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-115763999-1045575978=:31350-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 07:56:48 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Fred sez: >Also, please remember that the frames and bodies were interchangeable and in >later years there is at least one example of a drop number having a non-drop >frame. > >Does anyone know if the Pennsy strictly adhered to making sure that the body >always went back on its original frame? > >If not, you might be able to find photos in the era you are modeling of your >favorite GG1 not having the frame you expect. I looked at a LOT of photos, and the only two I could find that were "out of sequence" were 4859, preserved in Harrisburg with a flat pilot and 4839, which was photographed in 1957 with a drop coupler pilot. In part this may have to do with the gearing on these locos as they were built and then modified (ie, the drop coupler pilot versions had higher speed gearing, one of the invisible differences). Because the numbers were the way the loco was recognized and number series were geared the same, generic swapping of frames would have been unlikely, however swapping of frames withing series could have been perfectly reasonable. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:00:56 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains >Thanks to Bruce for providing the statistics. One surprise to me was the SP >total. I'm going to ask one of the other lists what they were mostly used >for. First, those are the numbers for April, 1950, for classes FM and FMS. Other years may differ in who is #1!. As for loads, you'll note the predominance of western roads? I have just one word for you...LUMBER. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:05:48 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D756.D67B4F80 Content-Type: text/plain Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " Fair of the Iron Horse " or something ? I hope this doesn't interfere with that Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse To the group. Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D756.D67B4F80 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse

Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in = June , " Fair of the Iron Horse "   or something = ?
I hope this doesn't interfere with that

Kenny


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse


To the group.

Please excuse this non PRR post.  I feel it is = important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I = hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am = posting.

During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the = roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred.  The dome with its = iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff = estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%.  The loss is in = a single section and not scattered about the building at this = time.

Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this = building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the = turn of the 20th century.  It was a car shop and not an engine = roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse.

Harry Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D756.D67B4F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:46:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was flat cars) Steve asks: >This listing causes me to ask if there are sources, online or in books, >where modelers can get an idea of the makeup of PRR freight trains with >the number of cars by type and foreign railroad name? I'm working on >modeling the PRR in Indiana. Is there a place I can go that will give me >an idea of the percentage of foreign road cars by type in a typical PRR >freight in central Indiana around 1950? I could by a boxcar for each of >the roads listed above, but would putting them in one train be accurate? Not exactly ...Steve, the holy grail of the accurate modeler would be a combination of tower sheets (giving loco #s, engineers, times) and wheel reports (giving car numbers, roads, and lading). What that gives you is the ability to model exactly, a specific instant in time. Most of us aren't really into that, so you need to model the "flavor" of the moment. However, you wouldn't want to use the flat car list to model boxcar frequency...its a very different list!! One place where I learn a lot, and its where I got the flat car list, is the Steam Era Freight Car List on Yeahaw (groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/)...rivit counter heaven . In addition, specific clinics at places like Prototype Rails in Cocoa, or the Sunshine meet in Naperville have details of fleet composition. Finally, watch the videos for your area/era. I saw a UP boxcar in EVERY PRR freight train...then I learned that UP had one of the largest fleets of house cars! Here's my approach to accurate freight modleing on the PRR: 1) The ratio of PRR cars on the PRR hovers at around 50% (+/- 5%) over more than 20 years. This is the AVERAGE, so hopper trains may be >50% while reefers and tank trains are at 0%. 2) Determine the national fleet leaders. For example, SP is the fleet leader for flat cars. Another example would be reefers...in 1941 FGE had 13,951 reefers, National had 1805 meat reefers, WFE had 7020 reefers and BRE had 2014. SFRD had 14,549, MDT had 13,069 and ART had about 12,000...and PFE was the clear leader with 36,000+. Looking at stock cars, ATSF was the leader, followed by UP and CB&Q with the PRR 7th and NYC 12th. Pick the top 2 or 3 roads in the "fleet" and make sure that they are represented in the correct ratios. 3) Determine the predominant car type (or "signature" car) within the fleet. Many of these are available in resin or plastic. For example, I'm told by that the signature SP flat will be released shortly in HO. Or, using our other example, lets look at PFE reefers circa 1945 (based on Thompson, Church and Jones): R-30/40-9 7435 R-40-10 4700 R-30/40-16 3554 R-30-12 3351 WP R-30-13-9 2627 R-30/40-18 2500 You'll no doubt note that the largest class are R-30/40-9, and that ~90% of the fleet is wood sided. For PRR, look at my web page at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html for the top 30 car classes for 1943/45. 4) Make up the rest (minority) of your fleet from other sources - interesting available models. For example, the excellent Tichy R-30-2/4 for PFE. 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain shipments, while there would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse population,etc... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:43:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Theft Reports From: Jerry Britton In light of the recent rash of railroadiana thefts, Keystone Crossings has established a Theft Reports page at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/thefts.ws4d The Strasburg Railroad has been invited to submit a formal report for posting. It is my hope that this page will serve as a reference tool for the many railfans on this list who may witness the presence or attempted sale of these items. Submission of a theft report must come from the party directly affected and must include law enforcement contact information. If you are not the party affected, please do not send reports of theft to me. Please provide my contact information and have the affected party contact me. Hopefully this will do some good. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:15:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Pullman Colors on the PRR? From: "Douglas Nelson" Can anyone tell me how often green Pullmans could be found in PRR trains? Or were they strickly PRR red Pullmans? I would assume that cars for sleeping car routes that traveled on multiple railroads would bring green Pullmans to the PRR. Thanks for any help. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:27:17 -0800 From: Ken Douglas Subject: [PRR] PRR FP7A and RS-3 During the last few days, postings have discussed the road numbers of the class EFP-15 (EMD FP7A and F7B) units that were painted Tuscan Red and Alco RS-3 units. The writer a co-author of "Pennsy Diesels, 1924-1968. The issue of the EFP-15 units is discussed on page 88. After reviewing a number of photos of the units in question (9834A-9839A and 9834B-9838A), it was concluded that only the first four A-units and two B-units were so painted. This conflicts with the paint drawing applying to the red class EFP-15 units that includes 9834A-9839A and 9834B-9838A were the applicable units. This is believed to be in error. Several recent postings refer to PRR RS-2 units. It is easy to understand since the six D&H units purchased in 1956 were classed AS-15. Diesel data from Alco indicates that these unit were in fact model RS-3, built in accordance with Alco specification 1662. The reason why the PRR may have designated AS-15m was that the D&H set up the fuel racks on their early RS-3 units to 1500 horsepower. The writer was told this by a D&H road foreman of engines a number of years ago. The PRR document 109-L states that class AS-15m has a rated horsepower of 1500. The PRRs units in classes AS-15m, AS-16 and AS-16ms were all Alco model RS-3. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:32:31 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Theft Reports Jerry- Great idea. Now we can spread the word faster about stolen items. It is a shame the world has come to this. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:43 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; Reading-Talk LIST; Conrail-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Theft Reports In light of the recent rash of railroadiana thefts, Keystone Crossings has established a Theft Reports page at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/thefts.ws4d The Strasburg Railroad has been invited to submit a formal report for posting. It is my hope that this page will serve as a reference tool for the many railfans on this list who may witness the presence or attempted sale of these items. Submission of a theft report must come from the party directly affected and must include law enforcement contact information. If you are not the party affected, please do not send reports of theft to me. Please provide my contact information and have the affected party contact me. Hopefully this will do some good. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:32:56 -0600 Subject: [PRR] resin kits From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I am trying to assemble a couple of F&C gons. I have tried epoxy and CA cement. Doesn't seem to matter if I let the bonding agent set a couple of hours or 24 hours, all you have to do is look crosseyed at the bond and it pops loose. Any suggestions from those who have successfully built resin kits? Don Harper Marine Laboratory Texas A&M - Galveston 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:51:21 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cincinnati In a message dated 2/18/03 4:01:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:05:26 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal > > > > Randy Williamson wrote: > > > Browsing through the Library of Congress web site I happened upon a > folder > > of CUT photographs. Some were taken in the 60's. Some were under > > construction shots and some of just after the station opened. > > > > http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/oh/oh0000/oh0024/ > > > > Thank you Randy for sharing these marvelous photos. For those of you who > haven't yet, spend a half hour browsing through these and partake of the > most > beautiful railroad station ever constructed. It is was an art deco > masterpiece, truly temple-like in its grandeur. Note--for those who never > had > the pleasure of a visit: the murals in the rotunda and concourse were > actually > tile mosaics of exquisite beauty. > > I have to say that I was not quite prepared for the sudden transition from > design drawings to photos of the concourse demolition, and I must confess > to > having gasped out loud when I hit that first photo. > > Richard Wallis > > PS--One of the elevation drawings included a trolley loop passage-way which > reminded me: perhaps when we hold the PRRT&HS annual meeting in Cincinnati > (in > 2004?) we can manage a side-trip to explore the never-operated Cincinnati > subway? > We can always ask -- it's been almost 40 years since I was on such a field trip, and I'm told much of the subway R-O-W has been lost to new construction. Yet, I believe a drive up I-75 (up the Mill Creek Valley, Cincinnati's major "railroad gulch" still reveals several evidences of tunneling and concrete sidehill galleries. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:51:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati --part1_17.361cdda5.2b83be89_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/18/03 4:01:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:05:26 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal > > > > Randy Williamson wrote: > > > Browsing through the Library of Congress web site I happened upon a > folder > > of CUT photographs. Some were taken in the 60's. Some were under > > construction shots and some of just after the station opened. > > > > http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/oh/oh0000/oh0024/ > > > > Thank you Randy for sharing these marvelous photos. For those of you who > haven't yet, spend a half hour browsing through these and partake of the > most > beautiful railroad station ever constructed. It is was an art deco > masterpiece, truly temple-like in its grandeur. Note--for those who never > had > the pleasure of a visit: the murals in the rotunda and concourse were > actually > tile mosaics of exquisite beauty. > > I have to say that I was not quite prepared for the sudden transition from > design drawings to photos of the concourse demolition, and I must confess > to > having gasped out loud when I hit that first photo. > > Richard Wallis > > PS--One of the elevation drawings included a trolley loop passage-way which > reminded me: perhaps when we hold the PRRT&HS annual meeting in Cincinnati > (in > 2004?) we can manage a side-trip to explore the never-operated Cincinnati > subway? > We can always ask -- it's been almost 40 years since I was on such a field trip, and I'm told much of the subway R-O-W has been lost to new construction. Yet, I believe a drive up I-75 (up the Mill Creek Valley, Cincinnati's major "railroad gulch" still reveals several evidences of tunneling and concrete sidehill galleries. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17.361cdda5.2b83be89_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/18/03 4:01:35 AM Eastern Standard= Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:05:26 -0600
   From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal



Randy Williamson wrote:

> Browsing through the Library of Congress web site I happened upon a fol= der
> of CUT photographs.  Some were taken in the 60's.  Some were=20= under
> construction shots and some of just after the station opened.
>
> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/oh/oh0000/oh0024/
>

Thank you Randy for sharing these marvelous photos.  For those of you w= ho
haven't yet, spend a half hour browsing through these and partake of the mos= t
beautiful railroad station ever constructed.  It is was an art deco
masterpiece, truly temple-like in its grandeur.  Note--for those who ne= ver had
the pleasure of a visit: the murals in the rotunda and concourse were actual= ly
tile mosaics of exquisite beauty.

I have to say that I was not quite prepared for the sudden transition from design drawings to photos of the concourse demolition, and I must confess to=
having gasped out loud when I hit that first photo.

Richard Wallis

PS--One of the elevation drawings included a trolley loop passage-way which<= BR> reminded me: perhaps when we hold the PRRT&HS annual meeting in Cincinna= ti (in
2004?) we can manage a side-trip to explore the never-operated Cincinnati subway?


We can always ask -- it's been almost 40 years since I was on such a field t= rip, and I'm told much of the subway R-O-W has been lost to new construction= .  Yet, I believe a drive up I-75 (up the Mill Creek Valley, Cincinnati= 's major "railroad gulch" still reveals several evidences of tunneling and c= oncrete sidehill galleries.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_17.361cdda5.2b83be89_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trainstuff LLC" Subject: Re: [PRR] resin kits Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:47:53 -0500 Don I would recommend Cyanopoxy. It's a little on the expensive side but goes a long way and will bond anything. You can find it at http://www.mrhobby.com/ Dayna Warner CEO Trainstuff LLC www.trainstuffllc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] resin kits Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:52:04 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D76E.105956E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Don! I am in the middle of building a bunch of these guys right now. I just finished an F&C G30a and GS. I had the same problem. I seem to have solved it by sanding the mating surfaces really well, tacking the parts together initially with thicker FRESH CA (older bottles do not seem to make the grade, even if they were in the fridge), then after I am satisfied with their alignment, I take the thin CA and bleed it into each and every seam (use a pallet and a piece of bent wire to pick up the liquid) until the whole thing is locked together like a drum. The initial tack shouldn't take longer than 20 seconds to make the grab or there is something wrong with the CA. And don't use too much. I have never had luck with thick beads. Wipe it off and start over. Best of luck! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:33 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] resin kits I am trying to assemble a couple of F&C gons. I have tried epoxy and CA cement. Doesn't seem to matter if I let the bonding agent set a couple of hours or 24 hours, all you have to do is look crosseyed at the bond and it pops loose. Any suggestions from those who have successfully built resin kits? Don Harper Marine Laboratory Texas A&M - Galveston 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D76E.105956E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] resin kits

Hi Don!  I am in the middle of building a bunch = of these guys right now.  I just finished an F&C G30a and = GS.  I had the same problem.  I seem to have solved it by = sanding the mating surfaces really well, tacking the parts together = initially with thicker FRESH CA (older bottles do not seem to make the = grade, even if they were in the fridge), then after I am satisfied with = their alignment, I take the thin CA and bleed it into each and every = seam (use a pallet and a piece of bent wire to pick up the liquid) = until the whole thing is locked together like a drum.  The initial = tack shouldn't take longer than 20 seconds to make the grab or there is = something wrong with the CA.  And don't use too much.  I have = never had luck with thick beads.  Wipe it off and start = over.  Best of luck!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu= ]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:33 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] resin kits


I am trying to assemble a couple of F&C = gons.  I have tried epoxy and CA
cement.  Doesn't seem to matter if I let the = bonding agent set a couple of
hours or 24 hours, all you have to do is look = crosseyed at the bond and it
pops loose.  Any suggestions from those who = have successfully built resin
kits?

Don Harper
Marine Laboratory
Texas A&M - Galveston
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D76E.105956E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] resin kits Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:03:38 -0600 Don, What I have found with resin kits is that you need to wash the parts. They typically have an oily mold release compound on them. I use liquid dishwashing soap. I didn't wash the parts of the first kit I tried, and experienced the same problems you mentioned. After washing the parts, I was amazed how quickly the ACC set, and how strong the joints were. Good luck, Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Donald E. Harper, Jr Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:33 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] resin kits I am trying to assemble a couple of F&C gons. I have tried epoxy and CA cement. Doesn't seem to matter if I let the bonding agent set a couple of hours or 24 hours, all you have to do is look crosseyed at the bond and it pops loose. Any suggestions from those who have successfully built resin kits? Don Harper Marine Laboratory Texas A&M - Galveston 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:10:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2D746.C3492AF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at that location. Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of the roof collapse and no steam in sight. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " Fair of the Iron Horse " or something ? I hope this doesn't interfere with that Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse To the group. Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2D746.C3492AF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The=20 NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at that=20 location.  Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a = good=20 guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of the = roof=20 collapse and no steam in sight.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 = 9:06=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] = B&O Museum=20 Roof Collapse

Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year = in June , "=20 Fair of the Iron Horse "   or something ?
I=20 hope this doesn't interfere with that

Kenny


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry=20 Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com]=20
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 = AM=20
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: = [PRR] B&O=20 Museum Roof Collapse


To the group.

Please excuse this non PRR post.  I feel it is = important=20 to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope = this post=20 is not redundant at the time that I am posting.

During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of = the roof on=20 the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred.  The dome with its iron = ring=20 construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on = the=20 amount of roof loss is about 20%.  The loss is in a single = section and=20 not scattered about the building at this time.

Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this = building=20 was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of = the 20th=20 century.  It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was = known as=20 Bailey's roundhouse.

Harry Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com=20



----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2D746.C3492AF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:17:38 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D771.A2F2C290 Content-Type: text/plain One of my copies of "Trains" has an advertisment for this, forget what issue but I'll look it up tonight. This "Fair of the Iron Horse" is sponsored by CSX and is suppossed to be a week long deal with the largest collection of steam and diesel locomotives ever, sine the one that was in the 20's. -At least this is what the ad states. I'll let the list know tommorow what issue this is in. Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:11 PM To: KNesbitt@penncro.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at that location. Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of the roof collapse and no steam in sight. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " Fair of the Iron Horse " or something ? I hope this doesn't interfere with that Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com ] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse To the group. Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D771.A2F2C290 Content-Type: text/html Message
One of my copies of "Trains" has an advertisment for this, forget what issue but I'll look it up tonight.
This "Fair of the Iron Horse" is sponsored by CSX and is suppossed to be a week long deal with the largest collection of steam and diesel locomotives ever, sine the one that was in the 20's.      -At least this is what the ad states.  
I'll let the list know tommorow what issue this is in.
 
 

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:11 PM
To: KNesbitt@penncro.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse

The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at that location.  Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of the roof collapse and no steam in sight.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:06 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse

Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " Fair of the Iron Horse "   or something ?
I hope this doesn't interfere with that

Kenny


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse


To the group.

Please excuse this non PRR post.  I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting.

During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred.  The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%.  The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time.

Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century.  It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse.

Harry Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D771.A2F2C290-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:24:41 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) --0-750175542-1045589081=:70497 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-750175542-1045589081=:70497 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-750175542-1045589081=:70497-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:32:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments --0-36277679-1045589572=:72534 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers were assigned to which divisions? I am particularly interested in steam/diesel running circa 1945-1957 on the Panhandle division. Also, could someone give a general rundown as to where locomotives were changed on trains during that period? For example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from Harrisburg to St. Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus? What about other steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains? I realize this could be a rather complicated question. Also, as regards to lists of locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for example, that this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 is assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use pretty much pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in Pittsburgh? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-36277679-1045589572=:72534 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers were assigned to which divisions?  I am particularly interested in steam/diesel running circa 1945-1957 on the Panhandle division.  Also, could someone give a general rundown as to where locomotives were changed on trains during that period?  For example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from Harrisburg to St. Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus?  What about other steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains?  I realize this could be a rather complicated question.  Also, as regards to lists of locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for example, that this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 is assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use pretty much pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in Pittsburgh?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-36277679-1045589572=:72534-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was flat cars) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:31:29 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D773.9231E6F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bruce, Steve, and all; Yes, there's a lot of things you can do to figure this stuff out. One of the most helpful is to digest the CT1000 for all of the served industries around your area. Obviously for through trains this is not as much of a consideration, but for locals it is the determinant of what industries were served. Although it is probably not possible to establish how many cars went to each, it is quite possible to figure out what type. Doing the historical research into this is also fun. Find out the industries, do a search, visit some sources, figure out what they did and how they shipped their product, BINGO. I have figured some of this out for my area of the PRR, and it also doesn't apply one WHIT to where you are modeling. TOTALLY different car mix. But you have a lot of fun research cut out for you! Bruce is right...lots of grain boxes, flat cars with farm implements, boxes of seed, feed, and fertilizer, maybe some major industries on-line with very specific products... And what part of Indiana? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 6:47 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was flat cars) Steve asks: >This listing causes me to ask if there are sources, online or in books, >where modelers can get an idea of the makeup of PRR freight trains with >the number of cars by type and foreign railroad name? I'm working on >modeling the PRR in Indiana. Is there a place I can go that will give me >an idea of the percentage of foreign road cars by type in a typical PRR >freight in central Indiana around 1950? I could by a boxcar for each of >the roads listed above, but would putting them in one train be accurate? Not exactly ...Steve, the holy grail of the accurate modeler would be a combination of tower sheets (giving loco #s, engineers, times) and wheel reports (giving car numbers, roads, and lading). What that gives you is the ability to model exactly, a specific instant in time. Most of us aren't really into that, so you need to model the "flavor" of the moment. However, you wouldn't want to use the flat car list to model boxcar frequency...its a very different list!! One place where I learn a lot, and its where I got the flat car list, is the Steam Era Freight Car List on Yeahaw (groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/)...rivit counter heaven . In addition, specific clinics at places like Prototype Rails in Cocoa, or the Sunshine meet in Naperville have details of fleet composition. Finally, watch the videos for your area/era. I saw a UP boxcar in EVERY PRR freight train...then I learned that UP had one of the largest fleets of house cars! Here's my approach to accurate freight modleing on the PRR: 1) The ratio of PRR cars on the PRR hovers at around 50% (+/- 5%) over more than 20 years. This is the AVERAGE, so hopper trains may be >50% while reefers and tank trains are at 0%. 2) Determine the national fleet leaders. For example, SP is the fleet leader for flat cars. Another example would be reefers...in 1941 FGE had 13,951 reefers, National had 1805 meat reefers, WFE had 7020 reefers and BRE had 2014. SFRD had 14,549, MDT had 13,069 and ART had about 12,000...and PFE was the clear leader with 36,000+. Looking at stock cars, ATSF was the leader, followed by UP and CB&Q with the PRR 7th and NYC 12th. Pick the top 2 or 3 roads in the "fleet" and make sure that they are represented in the correct ratios. 3) Determine the predominant car type (or "signature" car) within the fleet. Many of these are available in resin or plastic. For example, I'm told by that the signature SP flat will be released shortly in HO. Or, using our other example, lets look at PFE reefers circa 1945 (based on Thompson, Church and Jones): R-30/40-9 7435 R-40-10 4700 R-30/40-16 3554 R-30-12 3351 WP R-30-13-9 2627 R-30/40-18 2500 You'll no doubt note that the largest class are R-30/40-9, and that ~90% of the fleet is wood sided. For PRR, look at my web page at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html for the top 30 car classes for 1943/45. 4) Make up the rest (minority) of your fleet from other sources - interesting available models. For example, the excellent Tichy R-30-2/4 for PFE. 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain shipments, while there would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse population,etc... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D773.9231E6F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was flat cars)

Bruce, Steve, and all;
Yes, there's a lot of things you can do to figure = this stuff out.  One of the most helpful is to digest the CT1000 = for all of the served industries around your area.  Obviously for = through trains this is not as much of a consideration, but for locals = it is the determinant of what industries were served.  Although it = is probably not possible to establish how many cars went to each, it is = quite possible to figure out what type.  Doing the historical = research into this is also fun.  Find out the industries, do a = search, visit some sources, figure out what they did and how they = shipped their product, BINGO.  I have figured some of this out for = my area of the PRR, and it also doesn't apply one WHIT to where you are = modeling.  TOTALLY different car mix.  But you have a lot of = fun research cut out for you!  Bruce is right...lots of grain = boxes, flat cars with farm implements, boxes of seed, feed, and = fertilizer, maybe some major industries on-line with very specific = products...

And what part of Indiana?
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 6:47 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was = flat cars)


Steve asks:
>This listing causes me to ask if there are = sources, online or in books,
>where modelers can get an idea of the makeup of = PRR freight trains with
>the number of cars by type and foreign railroad = name? I'm working on
>modeling the PRR in Indiana. Is there a place I = can go that will give me
>an idea of the percentage of foreign road cars = by type in a typical PRR
>freight in central Indiana around 1950? I could = by a boxcar for each of
>the roads listed above, but would putting them = in one train be accurate?

Not exactly <G>...Steve, the holy grail of the = accurate modeler would be a
combination of tower sheets (giving loco #s, = engineers, times) and wheel
reports (giving car numbers, roads, and = lading).  What that gives you is
the ability to model exactly, a specific instant in = time.  Most of us
aren't really into that, so you need to model the = "flavor" of the moment.
However, you wouldn't want to use the flat car list = to model boxcar
frequency...its a very different list!!  One = place where I learn a lot, and
its where I got the flat car list, is the Steam Era = Freight Car List on
Yeahaw (groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/)...rivit = counter heaven <G>.  In
addition, specific clinics at places like Prototype = Rails in Cocoa, or the
Sunshine meet in Naperville have details of fleet = composition.  Finally,
watch the videos for your area/era.  I saw a UP = boxcar in EVERY PRR freight
train...then I learned that UP had one of the = largest fleets of house cars!
Here's my approach to accurate freight modleing on = the PRR:

1)  The ratio of PRR cars on the PRR hovers at = around 50% (+/- 5%) over
more than 20 years.  This is the AVERAGE, so = hopper trains may be >50%
while reefers and tank trains are at 0%.

2)  Determine the national fleet leaders.  = For example, SP is the fleet
leader for flat cars.  Another example would be = reefers...in 1941 FGE had
13,951 reefers, National had 1805 meat reefers, WFE = had 7020 reefers and
BRE had 2014. SFRD had 14,549, MDT had 13,069 and = ART had about
12,000...and PFE was the clear leader with = 36,000+.  Looking at stock cars,
ATSF was the leader, followed by UP and CB&Q = with the PRR 7th and NYC 12th.
Pick the top 2 or 3 roads in the "fleet" = and make sure that they are
represented in the correct ratios.

3) Determine the predominant car type (or = "signature" car) within the
fleet.  Many of these are available in resin or = plastic.   For example, I'm
told by that the signature SP flat will be released = shortly in HO.  Or,
using our other example, lets look at PFE reefers = circa 1945 (based on
Thompson, Church and Jones):
R-30/40-9       = 7435
R-40-10         = 4700
R-30/40-16      3554
R-30-12         = 3351
WP R-30-13-9    2627
R-30/40-18      2500
You'll no doubt note that the largest class are = R-30/40-9, and that ~90% of
the fleet is wood sided.  For PRR, look at my = web page at:
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/car= classes.html for the
top 30 car classes for 1943/45.

4)  Make up the rest (minority) of your fleet = from other sources -
interesting available models.  For example, the = excellent Tichy R-30-2/4
for PFE.

5)  Remember to adjust the car frequencies for = the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to = avoid PRR routings.
Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain = shipments, while there
would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse = population,etc...

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to = be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;    __
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   /  \
  = __<+--+>________________\__/___   = ____________________________________
 |- ______/ = O        O \_______ -| | __  = __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ = |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ = | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_____________________________\|_|______________________= ______________|
 | O--O     \0  = 0  0  0/    O--O |   = 0-0-0           &= nbsp;            = 0-0-0



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D773.9231E6F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:39:14 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D774.A7351FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ron, I think the following is true (folks, correct me!): GP-7's 8503-8508 (ES-15m) and 8554-8582 (also ES-15m) had dynamics. No steam equipped PRR GP-7's had dynamics. 8797-8806, 8500-8501, 8503-8508, 8545-8546, 8551-8582 all had Trainphone antennae. I can't answer as to whether these guys came from the factory with antennae, but they were installed relatively quickly, as the in service photos show them. Hope this helps, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:25 AM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D774.A7351FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ron,  I think the following is true (folks, correct me!):
GP-7's 8503-8508 (ES-15m) and 8554-8582 (also ES-15m) had dynamics.  No steam equipped PRR GP-7's had dynamics.
8797-8806, 8500-8501, 8503-8508, 8545-8546, 8551-8582 all had Trainphone antennae.
I can't answer as to whether these guys came from the factory with antennae, but they were installed relatively quickly, as the in service photos show them.
Hope this helps,
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:25 AM
To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk
Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's)

Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D774.A7351FD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:49:25 -0600 Ron, Visit this page: http://www.whitehallhobbies.com/PRR%20GP7%20-%20GP9%20Summary.PDF It will have the answers you are looking for. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:25 AM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:49:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was flat cars) From: Jerry Britton On 2/18/03 12:31 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > Yes, there's a lot of things you can do to figure this stuff out. One of the > most helpful is to digest the CT1000 for all of the served industries around > your area. Obviously for through trains this is not as much of a > consideration, but for locals it is the determinant of what industries were > served. Although it is probably not possible to establish how many cars went > to each, it is quite possible to figure out what type. Doing the historical > research into this is also fun. Find out the industries, do a search, visit > some sources, figure out what they did and how they shipped their product, > BINGO. I have figured some of this out for my area of the PRR, and it also > doesn't apply one WHIT to where you are modeling. TOTALLY different car mix. > But you have a lot of fun research cut out for you! Bruce is right...lots of > grain boxes, flat cars with farm implements, boxes of seed, feed, and > fertilizer, maybe some major industries on-line with very specific products... > As a start, check the Arranged Freight Schedules. For the trains that go through your modeled area, you can get their "block" makeup from these documents. Sometimes it is "general" (i.e.: Pitcairn Classification) while other times it is more specific (i.e.: Reefers not requiring reicing at Renovo). Keystone Crossings offers a 1952 PDF version you can download, and a 1954 PDF version on "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" cd. Also, Randy Williamson's up-and-coming web site offers an HTML version that appears to be from 1955... http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm You can use this info to model your through freights. Then use the CT1000's to set up the appropriate cars for your local online customers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:53:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments From: Jerry Britton On 2/18/03 12:32 PM, Ronald Di Orio (prr2249@yahoo.com) wrote: > Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers were > assigned to which divisions? Form 229 (or is it 225?) documents the assignment of locos (by road number) to each division. I don't have any originals, but I do have a photocopy of one from 1954. > I am particularly interested in steam/diesel > running circa 1945-1957 on the Panhandle division. Also, could someone give a > general rundown as to where locomotives were changed on trains during that > period? In the Panhandle only, or anywhere? Harrisburg, Pa., was a major loco swap location, largely because that was where electric ended. > For example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from > Harrisburg to St. Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus? What > about other steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains? I > realize this could be a rather complicated question. Also, as regards to > lists of locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for example, > that this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 is > assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use pretty much > pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in > Pittsburgh? I don't think this is really documented. Best bet is to rely on photographs. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:59:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments The regional assignments were published as form M.P. 229, I think on a monthly basis. It doesn't go into specifics like you're looking for though. Just region assigned and special features of each loco... While at the very end of the time period you're interested in, the July 1, 1957 MP 229 is on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/MP229_070157_150mono.pdf It's a scan of a second or third generation photocopy so I'll apologize in advance for the quality in a few places... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:33 PM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers were assigned to which divisions? I am particularly interested in steam/diesel running circa 1945-1957 on the Panhandle division. Also, could someone give a general rundown as to where locomotives were changed on trains during that period? For example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from Harrisburg to St. Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus? What about other steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains? I realize this could be a rather complicated question. Also, as regards to lists of locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for example, that this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 is assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use pretty much pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in Pittsburgh? Thanks. Ron ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:59:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2D74D.8AA332C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The regional assignments were published as form M.P. 229, I think on a monthly basis. It doesn't go into specifics like you're looking for though. Just region assigned and special features of each loco... While at the very end of the time period you're interested in, the July 1, 1957 MP 229 is on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/MP229_070157_150mono.pdf It's a scan of a second or third generation photocopy so I'll apologize in advance for the quality in a few places... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:33 PM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers were assigned to which divisions? I am particularly interested in steam/diesel running circa 1945-1957 on the Panhandle division. Also, could someone give a general rundown as to where locomotives were changed on trains during that period? For example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from Harrisburg to St. Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus? What about other steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains? I realize this could be a rather complicated question. Also, as regards to lists of locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for example, that this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 is assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use pretty much pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in Pittsburgh? Thanks. Ron ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2D74D.8AA332C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 regional assignments were published as form M.P. 229, I think on a = monthly=20 basis.
It=20 doesn't go into specifics like you're looking for though.  Just = region=20 assigned and
special features of each loco...
 
While=20 at the very end of the time period you're interested in, the July 1, = 1957 MP 229=20 is
on my=20 site at:
http:/= /prr.railfan.net/documents/MP229_070157_150mono.pdf
 
It's a=20 scan of a second or third generation photocopy so I'll apologize in = advance for=20 the
quality in a few places...
 
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di = Orio
Sent:=20 Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:33 PM
To: PRR Fax; PRR=20 Talk
Subject: [PRR] Locomotives and their=20 assignments

Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly = basis, as=20 to which locomotive numbers were assigned to which divisions?  I = am=20 particularly interested in steam/diesel running circa 1945-1957 on the = Panhandle division.  Also, could someone give a general rundown = as to=20 where locomotives were changed on trains during that period?  For = example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from Harrisburg = to St.=20 Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus?  What about = other=20 steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains?  I = realize this=20 could be a rather complicated question.  Also, as regards to = lists of=20 locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for = example, that=20 this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 = is=20 assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use = pretty much=20 pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in=20 Pittsburgh?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!=20 Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's = Day
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2D74D.8AA332C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:00:16 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments Ron asks: >Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers >were assigned to which divisions? Ron, what you are looking for is an MP229, Assignment of Locomotives. There is one on the web for 1944 http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp229.htm. I'm afraid I'm less help with the rest of your questions Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:03:26 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Snow & the PRR... All the snow we've gotten here in the last day or two reminded me of this issue of "Information" about the blizzard of 1914 and the PRR's cleanup efforts... http://prr.railfan.net/documents/Information-03-18-1914.html Enjoy! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:19:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotives and their assignments From: Jerry Britton On 2/18/03 1:00 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Ron, what you are looking for is an MP229, Assignment of Locomotives. There > is one on the web for 1944 http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp229.htm. > I added this link and Rob's link to the Motive Ops page of Keystone Crossings, so we'll have an index to all available online versions. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:20:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling freights on the PRR (was flat cars) From: Jerry Britton On 2/18/03 12:49 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Also, Randy Williamson's up-and-coming web site offers an HTML version that > appears to be from 1955... > http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm > I added this link to the Freight Ops page of Keystone Crossings, so we'll have an index to all available online versions. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] GG1 numbers Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:57:15 -0500 I'm not quite sure what a 'frame' is. Are we are referring to the truck frame? These were interchangeable and the motor, quill drive unit had the gears. Not the wheel and axles. Truck frames broke were, removed repaired and replaced. Hope fully of the same unit, but maybe not. The last new GG1 truck frames were going through the Altoona machine shops in the summer of 1965. They were being annealed the week I was in that specific shop. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [SMTP:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:57 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Fred sez: >Also, please remember that the frames and bodies were interchangeable and in >later years there is at least one example of a drop number having a non-drop >frame. > >Does anyone know if the Pennsy strictly adhered to making sure that the body >always went back on its original frame? > >If not, you might be able to find photos in the era you are modeling of your >favorite GG1 not having the frame you expect. I looked at a LOT of photos, and the only two I could find that were "out of sequence" were 4859, preserved in Harrisburg with a flat pilot and 4839, which was photographed in 1957 with a drop coupler pilot. In part this may have to do with the gearing on these locos as they were built and then modified (ie, the drop coupler pilot versions had higher speed gearing, one of the invisible differences). Because the numbers were the way the loco was recognized and number series were geared the same, generic swapping of frames would have been unlikely, however swapping of frames withing series could have been perfectly reasonable. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:09:03 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) --0-412922-1045595343=:6520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to Eldon and Andy for their replies. The page Andy referred me to gives rise to two other questions, however. What is meant by "carbody cut outs", and, did the class "M" type radio also use the train antennae, or only the class "T"? Thanks again. Ron Andy Cich wrote:Ron, Visit this page: http://www.whitehallhobbies.com/PRR%20GP7%20-%20GP9%20Summary.PDF It will have the answers you are looking for. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:25 AM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-412922-1045595343=:6520 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks to Eldon and Andy for their replies.  The page Andy referred me to gives rise to two other questions, however. What is meant by "carbody cut outs", and, did the class "M" type radio also use the train antennae, or only the class "T"?  Thanks again.  Ron 

 

 Andy Cich <ajc5150@insightbb.com> wrote:

Ron,

Visit this page:

http://www.whitehallhobbies.com/PRR%20GP7%20-%20GP9%20Summary.PDF


It will have the answers you are looking for.

Andy Cich


-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di
Orio
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:25 AM
To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk
Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's)


Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and
Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic
brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron




Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-412922-1045595343=:6520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:10:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Root History of DGLE Paint --part1_63.18880fee.2b83df3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone else just get an alphabet mess with this message!? Mike Schock --part1_63.18880fee.2b83df3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone else just get an alphabet mess with this messag= e!?

Mike Schock

 --part1_63.18880fee.2b83df3e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:55:09 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Resin kits From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Thanks to all who responded to my query about the resin kits. I'll try washing in detergent and lightly sanding the parts to be glued. Don Harper Marine Laboratory Texas A&M - Galveston 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:24:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:32:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Locomotives and their assignments Do lists exist, perhaps on a yearly basis, as to which locomotive numbers were assigned to which divisions? I am particularly interested in steam/diesel running circa 1945-1957 on the Panhandle division. Also, could someone give a general rundown as to where locomotives were changed on trains during that period? For example, it is my understanding that T-1's ran through from Harrisburg to St. Louis, with no change at say Pittsburgh or Columbus? What about other steam/diesel power on both passenger and freight trains? I realize this could be a rather complicated question. Also, as regards to lists of locomotives, do more specialized lists exist that say, for example, that this B-6 was assigned to Scully yard or Mingo, etc., or that this G-5 is assigned to Burgettstown locals or were locomotives for local use pretty much pulled as available from the pool at the 28th Street Engine house in Pittsburgh? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:49:25 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Ron, Visit this page: http://www.whitehallhobbies.com/PRR%20GP7%20-%20GP9%20Summary.PDF It will have the answers you are looking for. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:25 AM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Does anyone know of a list by locomotive number as to which ES15m's and Es15ms's had dynamic brakes and/or train antennas? On those with dynamic brakes, were they factory supplied as such or added later? Thanks. Ron Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:09:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Thanks to Eldon and Andy for their replies. The page Andy referred me to gives rise to two other questions, however. What is meant by "carbody cut outs", and, did the class "M" type radio also use the train antennae, or only the class "T"? Thanks again. Ron Andy Cich wrote:Ron, Visit this page: http://www.whitehallhobbies.com/PRR%20GP7%20-%20GP9%20Summary.PDF It will have the answers you are looking for. Andy Cich "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:41:07 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains In a message dated 2/17/2003 6:18:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf writes: > During my days with the power transformer > division of Allis-Chalmers, though it was on the A-C Belt Line between the > C&NW and Milwaukee Road, it seemed like almost all of our > loads were on > Pennsy cars. Bob: This may have been because AC had a large plant on the northside of Pittsburgh served by the PRR. Many of the small classes of flat cars FW and FD were used for AC traffic. They were stored at Conway and/or Island Avenue yards when not being used. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:02:28 -0800 From: Ken Douglas Subject: [PRR] Class AS-15m Bill, You are right, the AS-15m units did have. 6-SL brake schedule. I should chide you about whether they had MU. Yes, they did as indicated by the "M" in the class. Ken Douglas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:09:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman Colors on the PRR? In a message dated 2/18/03 10:27:06 AM Central Standard Time, dougnelson@mindspring.com writes: << Can anyone tell me how often green Pullmans could be found in PRR trains? >> I presume you mean through Pullmans. Pullman green and two-tone gray heavyweights could be found in the appropriate trains. The Broadway in the 40's seemed to carry a green heavyweight in addition to the Sante Fe fluted side lightweight in several videos. Before the lightweights came, the Overland heavyweight was frequently in two-tone gray. And of course, the Southland (PRR-L&N-Cof G-ACL) had a mix of colors. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:13:07 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_07A6_01C2D781.C4B58A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron--The category "CARBODY CUT OUTS" refers to the oval shaped holes = in the skirt that extends from the walkway down to the side of the fuel = tank. This is one of the details which differentiate what modelers like = to call phases. Other details are the height of some of the hood doors = and the type of footboards. For instance, in HO you could model = 8797-8806 using the Atlas model because the footboards do not have the = built in pockets to store the unattached end of MU hoses. All the other = later built engines had these pockets and are best modeled starting with = the P2k engine. I don't know what Radio Type M is; however, 8547-8549 = do not have the trainphone antenna. When built these engines were = delivered to Wilkes Barre and replaced H9's in that area. Photo in = Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 2, p. 45. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_07A6_01C2D781.C4B58A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron--The category "CARBODY CUT OUTS" = refers to=20 the oval shaped holes in the skirt that extends from the walkway down to = the=20 side of the fuel tank.  This is one of the details which = differentiate what=20 modelers like to call phases.  Other details are the height of some = of the=20 hood doors and the type of footboards.  For instance, in HO you = could model=20 8797-8806 using the Atlas model because the footboards do not have the = built in=20 pockets to store the unattached end of MU hoses.  All the other = later built=20 engines had these pockets and are best modeled starting with the P2k=20 engine.  I don't know what Radio Type M is;  however, = 8547-8549 do not=20 have the trainphone antenna.  When built these engines were = delivered to=20 Wilkes Barre and replaced H9's in that area.  Photo in Pennsy Steam = Years=20 Vol. 2, p. 45.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_07A6_01C2D781.C4B58A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:16:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] resin kits In addition to the others comments on cleaning the parts of mold release oils, etc, after you have made your initial bond, if you have a joint where you can stand the appearance of a fillet, one of the strongest fillet materials is the slow-acting (30 second) cyanoacrylate with the kicker added. I am still experimenting with the cyanoepoxy and so far it looks good, though I am still having trouble controlling the application quantities in the right places. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:13:07 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Hi Ron--The category "CARBODY CUT OUTS" refers to the oval shaped holes in the skirt that extends from the walkway down to the side of the fuel tank. This is one of the details which differentiate what modelers like to call phases. Other details are the height of some of the hood doors and the type of footboards. For instance, in HO you could model 8797-8806 using the Atlas model because the footboards do not have the built in pockets to store the unattached end of MU hoses. All the other later built engines had these pockets and are best modeled starting with the P2k engine. I don't know what Radio Type M is; however, 8547-8549 do not have the trainphone antenna. When built these engines were delivered to Wilkes Barre and replaced H9's in that area. Photo in Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 2, p. 45. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:39:29 EST Subject: [PRR] American Orient Express My recent discovery of this list and your enthusiastic appreciation of the PRR and it's history have revived my interest in railroads and trains. On PBS this past weekend, they showed about 2 hours of train trips, Denver to Seattle and New Orleans to Washington, DC, on trains operated by the American Orient Express company. They looked wonderful. The company's web site provides some information. Has anyone had experience with a trip with this outfit? Any war stories you'd care to share? Good things? Bad things? It has been 40 years; I'd sure like to ride the main line from Chicago to New York or the other way, one more time. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:11:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] flat cars on freight trains In a message dated 2/18/03 3:41:07 PM Central Standard Time, SUVCW ORR writes: << This may have been because AC had a large plant on the northside of Pittsburgh served by the PRR. >> I worked there too. That was a small transformer plant and (mainly) a distribution transformer plant. They did build instrument transformers there and the large voltage instrument transformers which were a relatively light but high load were prime candidates for the 8 wheel well cars. There was no traffic between the Pittsburgh and Milwaukee plants to speak of. The Pittsbugh plant was a great destination for coil steel, some plate steel, and tankcars of insulating oil. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jconsoli@paonline.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 23:54:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Ron, The "T" indeed stands for the Inductive Train Communication System (Trainphone) that had the characteristic rooftop tranmitting loop "antenna" and receiving coil. The "M" likely stood for the installation of a Motorola Radio Communication System (radio-frequency system - a "real" radio). These units were applied to about a dozen I1sa locomotives in the mid 1950's. These I1sa exhibit the "M" code on MP 229 listings, as opposed to the "T" code on the Trainphone-equipped locomotives. These locomotives had a small firecracker-style antenna on the cab roof. The photo Steve mentions below is too distant to see this feature, if same was used on these GP7's. Jack Consoli Steve Hoxie wrote: > Hi Ron--The category "CARBODY CUT OUTS" refers to the oval shaped > holes in the skirt that extends from the walkway down to the side of > the fuel tank. This is one of the details which differentiate what > modelers like to call phases. Other details are the height of some of > the hood doors and the type of footboards. For instance, in HO you > could model 8797-8806 using the Atlas model because the footboards do > not have the built in pockets to store the unattached end of MU > hoses. All the other later built engines had these pockets and are > best modeled starting with the P2k engine. I don't know what Radio > Type M is; however, 8547-8549 do not have the trainphone antenna. > When built these engines were delivered to Wilkes Barre and replaced > H9's in that area. Photo in Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 2, p. 45. Steve > HoxiePensacola FL "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 23:54:53 -0500 From: jconsoli@paonline.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Es15m---(GP7's) Ron, The "T" indeed stands for the Inductive Train Communication System (Trainphone) that had the characteristic rooftop tranmitting loop "antenna" and receiving coil. The "M" likely stood for the installation of a Motorola Radio Communication System (radio-frequency system - a "real" radio). These units were applied to about a dozen I1sa locomotives in the mid 1950's. These I1sa exhibit the "M" code on MP 229 listings, as opposed to the "T" code on the Trainphone-equipped locomotives. These locomotives had a small firecracker-style antenna on the cab roof. The photo Steve mentions below is too distant to see this feature, if same was used on these GP7's. Jack Consoli Steve Hoxie wrote: > Hi Ron--The category "CARBODY CUT OUTS" refers to the oval shaped > holes in the skirt that extends from the walkway down to the side of > the fuel tank. This is one of the details which differentiate what > modelers like to call phases. Other details are the height of some of > the hood doors and the type of footboards. For instance, in HO you > could model 8797-8806 using the Atlas model because the footboards do > not have the built in pockets to store the unattached end of MU > hoses. All the other later built engines had these pockets and are > best modeled starting with the P2k engine. I don't know what Radio > Type M is; however, 8547-8549 do not have the trainphone antenna. > When built these engines were delivered to Wilkes Barre and replaced > H9's in that area. Photo in Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 2, p. 45. Steve > HoxiePensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:54:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Bruce, Good ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:55:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 numbers Hit Send too soon and by accident on the last one. What I started to say was: Bruce, Good point! I hadn't thought of that. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:11:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2D7E6.173E3D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThere are several ads for this event. My modeling group, the = Bedford (NH) Boomers have been aware of it for over a year. One of our = members is ramrodding the restoration of the Flying Yankee and plans are = to take one of the units (the 'A' unit) down to Baltimore for the event. = I have been passing the lists notes on this on to the group. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KNesbitt@penncro.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse One of my copies of "Trains" has an advertisment for this, forget what = issue but I'll look it up tonight. This "Fair of the Iron Horse" is sponsored by CSX and is suppossed to = be a week long deal with the largest collection of steam and diesel = locomotives ever, sine the one that was in the 20's. -At least this = is what the ad states. =20 I'll let the list know tommorow what issue this is in. Kenneth W. Nesbitt=20 Telecommunications Manager=20 Penncro Associates=20 215-322-2438 ext 317=20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:11 PM To: KNesbitt@penncro.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at = that location. Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a = good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of = the roof collapse and no steam in sight. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = KNesbitt@penncro.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " = Fair of the Iron Horse " or something ?=20 I hope this doesn't interfere with that=20 Kenny=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com]=20 Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse=20 To the group.=20 Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the = rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is = not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the = B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring = construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on = the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section = and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was = briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th = century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known = as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch=20 prrk4s@msn.com=20 = -----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. = ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2D7E6.173E3D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
There are several ads for this event. = My modeling=20 group, the Bedford (NH) Boomers have been aware of it for over a year. = One of=20 our members is ramrodding the restoration of the Flying Yankee and plans = are to=20 take one of the units (the 'A' unit) down to Baltimore for the event. I = have=20 been passing the lists notes on this on to the group.
 
Tom Mahon
Merrimack, NH
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, = 2003 12:17=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O = Museum Roof=20 Collapse

One=20 of my copies of "Trains" has an advertisment for this, forget what = issue but=20 I'll look it up tonight.
This=20 "Fair of the Iron Horse" is sponsored by CSX and is suppossed to be a = week=20 long deal with the largest collection of steam and diesel locomotives = ever,=20 sine the one that was in the 20's.      -At = least=20 this is what the ad states.  
I'll=20 let the list know tommorow what issue this is in.
 
 

Kenneth W.=20 Nesbitt
Telecommunications=20 Manager
Penncro = Associates=20
215-322-2438 ext 317

-----Original Message-----
From: = Bill Volkmer=20 [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Tuesday, = February 18,=20 2003 12:11 PM
To: KNesbitt@penncro.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof=20 Collapse

The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this = summer at=20 that location.  Since there is NO big steam slated for the = convention,=20 a good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because = of the=20 roof collapse and no steam in sight.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, = 2003 9:06=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] = B&O=20 Museum Roof Collapse

Aren't they supposed to have a big event this = year in June=20 , " Fair of the Iron Horse "   or something ? =
I hope this doesn't interfere with that

Kenny


-----Original Message-----
From:=20 Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com]=20
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 = AM=20
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: = [PRR]=20 B&O Museum Roof Collapse


To the group.

Please excuse this non PRR post.  I feel it = is=20 important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest = list, I=20 hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am = posting.

During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse = of the roof=20 on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred.  The dome with its = iron=20 ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff = estimate=20 on the amount of roof loss is about 20%.  The loss is in a = single=20 section and not scattered about the building at this = time.

Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that = this=20 building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about = the=20 turn of the 20th century.  It was a car shop and not an = engine=20 roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse.

Harry Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com=20



----------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2D7E6.173E3D40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:49:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Compostion of a model car fleet (theoretical vs. --part1_182.17316902.2b84d745_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are > modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. > Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain shipments, while there > would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse population,etc... > > OTOH, Pennsy's "grain boxes" were just the same 40' single door car as loaded everywhere across the system (I do agree that at any given time there could probably be a lot of these parked along LW lines, waiting for the next harvest). Hmm - "fewer auto cars" - unless you're on some outbound route from Detroit, which many PRR LW lines were. Then you'd see a lot of them, even in the late Thirties. Made-up ratios are all very well (and they are natural to us math/science/engineering types), but after 40 years in the hobby I'm not as enthusiastic about theoretical ratios as I once was. IMHO photos of the time and place you're modeling will show what cars you need... I adjusted my own car fleet in a more negative way -- if a car wasn't something appearing in a same-era picture, then I questioned its usefulness to the layout setting. Got rid of about 25% of my (non PRR) cars that way. BTW, just as important on a given model railroad is whether a type of car is used by local industries that are modeled. For example, if you have only one industry that will take one covered hopper, you probably don't need 8 covered hoppers on the layout. This is not a matter of how many of that car the Pennsy had -- it's simply a function of how many cars contribute to your operating scheme. In my mind, cars that are "overhead" only (can't work the local industries) should be employed once there are a plurality of cars to handle each type of local traffic. If you're operating your model railroad (and if it runs at all, you should already be switching cars at industries), it will quickly become obvious which types of cars are scarce. You can experiment by adding more of these, and subtracting something else. A good friend once observed that "there may be certain things that should be in a given prototype scene. But once you have them, you will only operate the ones that run well". At the time, he was talking about N scale locomotives, but this also seems like good advice for fitting the car fleet to the model railroad. Whatever you do, don't take all our prototype research so seriously that it gets in your way. A model railroad should be fun -- however YOU define fun. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_182.17316902.2b84d745_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


5)  Remember to adjust the= car frequencies for the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.
Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain shipments, while there would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse population,etc...



OTOH, Pennsy's "grain boxes" were just the same 40' single door car as loade= d everywhere across the system (I do agree that at any given time there coul= d probably be a lot of these parked along LW lines, waiting for the next har= vest).

Hmm - "fewer auto cars" - unless you're on some outbound route from Detroit,= which many PRR LW lines were.  Then you'd see a lot of them, even in t= he late Thirties.

Made-up ratios are all very well (and they are natural to us math/science/en= gineering types), but after 40 years in the hobby I'm not as enthusiastic ab= out theoretical ratios as I once was.  IMHO photos of the time and plac= e you're modeling will show what cars you need...

I adjusted my own car fleet in a more negative way -- if a car wasn't someth= ing appearing in a same-era picture, then I questioned its usefulness to the= layout setting.  Got rid of about 25% of my (non PRR) cars that way. <= BR>
BTW, just as important on a given model railroad is whether a type of car is= used by local industries that are modeled.  For example, if you have o= nly one industry that will take one covered hopper, you probably don't need=20= 8 covered hoppers on the layout.  This is not a matter of how many of t= hat car the Pennsy had -- it's simply a function of how many cars contribute= to your operating scheme.  In my mind, cars that are "overhead" only (= can't work the local industries) should be employed once there are a plurali= ty of cars to handle each type of local traffic. 

If you're operating your model railroad (and if it runs at all, you should a= lready be switching cars at industries), it will quickly become obvious whic= h types of cars are scarce.  You can experiment by adding more of these= , and subtracting something else.

A good friend once observed that "there may be certain things that should be= in a given prototype scene.  But once you have them, you will only ope= rate the ones that run well".  At the time, he was talking about N scal= e locomotives, but this also seems like good advice for fitting the car flee= t to the model railroad.

Whatever you do, don't take all our prototype research so seriously that it=20= gets in your way.  A model railroad should be fun -- however YOU define= fun.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_182.17316902.2b84d745_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR and CTC Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:09:13 -0500 I seem to recall portions of the line between Johnstown and Pittsburgh as having one or more tracks reverse signalled in the early 1960s. Rule 262 governed the operation and it was generally regarded as CTC. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 10:33 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR and CTC Hello list members, Does anyone know if the PRR had plans to CTC major portions of their mainlines? Examples: Phila to Harrisburg,Altoona to Pittsburgh,Fort Wayne to Chicago,etc. Was the PRR too large of a railroad to CTC? Or maybe to expensive. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] American Orient Express Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:59:46 -0600 At one time, the cars denoted as the American Orient Express rode behind Amtrak's Broadway Limited between New York and Chicago, and Amtrak's Capital Limited, between Washington and Chicago. The fares were not cheap - there were 3-4 times Amtrak's 1st class fares for the same trip. Starting prices 10 years ago ranged between $600 and $700 one way. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:39 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] American Orient Express My recent discovery of this list and your enthusiastic appreciation of the PRR and it's history have revived my interest in railroads and trains. On PBS this past weekend, they showed about 2 hours of train trips, Denver to Seattle and New Orleans to Washington, DC, on trains operated by the American Orient Express company. They looked wonderful. The company's web site provides some information. Has anyone had experience with a trip with this outfit? Any war stories you'd care to share? Good things? Bad things? It has been 40 years; I'd sure like to ride the main line from Chicago to New York or the other way, one more time. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: [PRR] Truc-Train service (LCL) & cabin cars Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:56:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2D81E.AC3D1D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry & all, I read thru your page in Keystone Crossings on the Truc-Train = service last night and learned a lot. It is great for someone like me in = the UK to have access to so much information on the Pennsy as and when = we need it - A tribute to your work and that of Mark Bej, together with = those guys you link to. As usual, a little education gives rise to more questions, so here = goes...... You mention that when Truc-Train was introduced, the F30 cars ran in = the LCL trains. Looking at the 1952 timings for the LCL1 service, it reads as though = the train departs Harsimus Cove, Picks up at Waverly, recesses at Enola = for 1 hour, recesses at Altoona for 45 minutes, recesses at Conway for = 45 minutes, recesses at Crestline for 45 minutes etc.,etc., en route to = Chicago. 1) LCL1 was not booked to pick up or set down at any of the recess = points (except for Enola on Sats. & Mons.). What was the reason for the = lengthy recesses? They seem far too generous for train crew changes. Was = it simply to make up any lost time? 2) Obviously, locomotives were changed at Enola, but was the cabin = car also changed? 3) Would the same locomotives and cabin work thru to Chicago from = Enola? These questions are, I suppose, relevant to most east-west services = although the LCL services seem planned to be "non-stop" for most of the = route. Getting back to Truc-Train van trailers=20 4) Any suggestions for a good or accurate model of the F30G (or even = a F30A) in N-scale? 5) Were the van trailers carried on the initial Truc-Train service = exclusively PRR-owned? 6) Any suggestions yet for a N-scale model of the early PRR-owned van = trailers? Thanks, Martin Skrzetuszewski =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2D81E.AC3D1D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry & all,
    I read thru your = page in=20 Keystone Crossings on the Truc-Train service last night and learned a = lot. It is=20 great for someone like me in the UK to have access to so much = information on the=20 Pennsy as and when we need it - A tribute to your work and that of Mark = Bej,=20 together with those guys you link to.
 
    As usual, a little = education=20 gives rise to more questions, so here goes......
    You mention that = when Truc-Train=20 was introduced, the F30 cars ran in the LCL trains.
    Looking at the 1952 = timings for=20 the LCL1 service, it reads as though the train departs Harsimus = Cove, Picks=20 up at Waverly, recesses at Enola for 1 hour, recesses at Altoona for 45 = minutes,=20 recesses at Conway for 45 minutes, recesses at Crestline for 45 = minutes=20 etc.,etc., en route to Chicago.
 
1)    LCL1 was not = booked to pick up=20 or set down at any of the recess points (except for Enola on Sats. & = Mons.).=20 What was the reason for the lengthy recesses? They seem far too generous = for=20 train crew changes. Was it simply to make up any lost time?
 
2)    Obviously, = locomotives were=20 changed at Enola, but was the cabin car also changed?
 
3)    Would the same = locomotives and=20 cabin work thru to Chicago from Enola?
 
    These questions are, = I suppose,=20 relevant to most east-west services although the LCL services seem = planned to be=20 "non-stop" for most of the route. Getting back to Truc-Train van = trailers=20
 
4)    Any suggestions = for a good or=20 accurate model of the F30G (or even a F30A) in N-scale?
 
5)    Were the van = trailers carried=20 on the initial Truc-Train service exclusively PRR-owned?
 
6)    Any suggestions = yet for=20 a N-scale model of the early PRR-owned van trailers?
 
Thanks,
Martin Skrzetuszewski
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C2D81E.AC3D1D20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:09:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR and CTC Re: "I seem to recall portions of the line between Johnstown and Pittsburgh as having one or more tracks reverse signaled in the early 1960s. Rule 262 governed the operation and it was generally regarded as CTC." Actually it's Rule 261 not 262, and was in effect on Track 2 between Johnstown and Derry, and from "R" to "CM." The ML between Johnstown and Pittsburgh had 14 interlockings, 11 or which were controlled from block stations, only three were remote. Not really a centralized operation. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:09:38 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR and CTC Re: "I seem to recall portions of the line between Johnstown and Pittsburgh as having one or more tracks reverse signaled in the early 1960s. Rule 262 governed the operation and it was generally regarded as CTC." Actually it's Rule 261 not 262, and was in effect on Track 2 between Johnstown and Derry, and from "R" to "CM." The ML between Johnstown and Pittsburgh had 14 interlockings, 11 or which were controlled from block stations, only three were remote. Not really a centralized operation. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:08:03 -0500 For those that might be interested there are photographs and a short write-up at this site. http://www.largescaleonline.com/ It's a commercial site and they are there to sell large scale trains, but this might be of some interest. Phil MessageThere are several ads for this event. My modeling group, the Bedford (NH) Boomers have been aware of it for over a year. One of our members is ramrodding the restoration of the Flying Yankee and plans are to take one of the units (the 'A' unit) down to Baltimore for the event. I have been passing the lists notes on this on to the group. Tom Mahon Merrimack, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Truc-Train service (LCL) & cabin cars Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:45:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2D7FB.9944C7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes those were all crew change points and the cabin car had to be changed (on off, and one on). 1952 was prior to the time that they (PRR) installed the cabin car ramps where the car rolled down onto the rear of the train by gravity and stayed with the train. At Altoona it was necessary to add helper engines to the rear of the train in addition to the new cabin after the inbound cabin was removed. Of course an air test had to be made and any air brake malfunctions had to be corrected. The car inspectors didn't ride around in golf carts like they do today. There were car inspectors who did a running inspection at crew change points as well, and all bearings had waste pack in those days which was a constant maintenance headache. There may have been a few roller bearing equipped truc-train cars in 1952, but they were few and far between. The same diesels TRIED to operate all the way from Chicago to Enola but the first generation diesels were highly malfunction prone and often had to be replaced enroute. This was particularly true for the non-EMD models. A successful trip from Altoona to Enola without any bells ringing on the FMs, the sharks, and Alco FAs was a rarity. Today's railroaders don't know how good they have it, compared to those days. 15 hours and 59 minutes was quite often a day's work in those early years of the diesel. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Martin Skrzetuszewski Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:56 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Truc-Train service (LCL) & cabin cars Jerry & all, I read thru your page in Keystone Crossings on the Truc-Train service last night and learned a lot. It is great for someone like me in the UK to have access to so much information on the Pennsy as and when we need it - A tribute to your work and that of Mark Bej, together with those guys you link to. As usual, a little education gives rise to more questions, so here goes...... You mention that when Truc-Train was introduced, the F30 cars ran in the LCL trains. Looking at the 1952 timings for the LCL1 service, it reads as though the train departs Harsimus Cove, Picks up at Waverly, recesses at Enola for 1 hour, recesses at Altoona for 45 minutes, recesses at Conway for 45 minutes, recesses at Crestline for 45 minutes etc.,etc., en route to Chicago. 1) LCL1 was not booked to pick up or set down at any of the recess points (except for Enola on Sats. & Mons.). What was the reason for the lengthy recesses? They seem far too generous for train crew changes. Was it simply to make up any lost time? 2) Obviously, locomotives were changed at Enola, but was the cabin car also changed? 3) Would the same locomotives and cabin work thru to Chicago from Enola? These questions are, I suppose, relevant to most east-west services although the LCL services seem planned to be "non-stop" for most of the route. Getting back to Truc-Train van trailers 4) Any suggestions for a good or accurate model of the F30G (or even a F30A) in N-scale? 5) Were the van trailers carried on the initial Truc-Train service exclusively PRR-owned? 6) Any suggestions yet for a N-scale model of the early PRR-owned van trailers? Thanks, Martin Skrzetuszewski ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2D7FB.9944C7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Yes=20 those were all crew change points and the cabin car had to be changed = (on off,=20 and one on).  1952 was prior to the time that they = (PRR) installed the=20 cabin car ramps where the car rolled down onto the rear of the train by = gravity=20 and stayed with the train.  At Altoona it was necessary to add = helper=20 engines to the rear of the train in addition to the new cabin after the = inbound=20 cabin was removed.  Of course an air test had to be made and any = air brake=20 malfunctions had to be corrected.  The car inspectors didn't ride = around in=20 golf carts like they do today.   There were car inspectors who = did a=20 running inspection at crew change points as well, and all bearings had = waste=20 pack in those days which was a constant maintenance headache.  = There may=20 have been a few roller bearing equipped truc-train cars in 1952, but = they were=20 few and far between.
 
The=20 same diesels TRIED to operate all the way from Chicago to Enola but the = first=20 generation diesels were highly malfunction prone and often had to be = replaced=20 enroute.  This was particularly true for the non-EMD models.  = A=20 successful trip from Altoona to Enola without any bells ringing on the = FMs, the=20 sharks, and Alco FAs was a rarity.
 
Today's railroaders don't know how good they have it, compared = to those=20 days.  15 hours and 59 minutes was quite often a day's work in = those early=20 years of the diesel.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Martin=20 Skrzetuszewski
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:56=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Truc-Train service = (LCL)=20 & cabin cars

Jerry & all,
    I read thru your = page in=20 Keystone Crossings on the Truc-Train service last night and learned a = lot. It=20 is great for someone like me in the UK to have access to so much = information=20 on the Pennsy as and when we need it - A tribute to your work and that = of Mark=20 Bej, together with those guys you link to.
 
    As usual, a little = education=20 gives rise to more questions, so here goes......
    You mention that = when=20 Truc-Train was introduced, the F30 cars ran in the LCL = trains.
    Looking at the = 1952 timings=20 for the LCL1 service, it reads as though the train departs = Harsimus Cove,=20 Picks up at Waverly, recesses at Enola for 1 hour, recesses at Altoona = for 45=20 minutes, recesses at Conway for 45 minutes, recesses at = Crestline for 45=20 minutes etc.,etc., en route to Chicago.
 
1)    LCL1 was not = booked to pick=20 up or set down at any of the recess points (except for Enola on Sats. = &=20 Mons.). What was the reason for the lengthy recesses? They seem far = too=20 generous for train crew changes. Was it simply to make up any lost=20 time?
 
2)    Obviously, = locomotives were=20 changed at Enola, but was the cabin car also changed?
 
3)    Would the same = locomotives=20 and cabin work thru to Chicago from Enola?
 
    These questions = are, I=20 suppose, relevant to most east-west services although the LCL services = seem=20 planned to be "non-stop" for most of the route. Getting back to = Truc-Train van=20 trailers
 
4)    Any suggestions = for a good=20 or accurate model of the F30G (or even a F30A) in = N-scale?
 
5)    Were the van = trailers=20 carried on the initial Truc-Train service exclusively = PRR-owned?
 
6)    Any suggestions = yet for=20 a N-scale model of the early PRR-owned van trailers?
 
Thanks,
Martin Skrzetuszewski
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2D7FB.9944C7E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:42:45 EST Subject: [PRR] Compostion of a model car fleet (theoretical vs. --part1_135.1b54f594.2b84f1e5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are > modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. > Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain shipments, while there > would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse population,etc... > > OTOH, Pennsy's "grain boxes" were just the same 40' single door car as loaded everywhere across the system (I do agree that at any given time there could probably be a lot of these parked along LW lines, waiting for the next harvest). Hmm - "fewer auto cars" - unless you're on some outbound route from Detroit, which many PRR LW lines were. Then you'd see a lot of them, even in the late Thirties. Made-up ratios are all very well (and they are natural to us math/science/engineering types), but after 40 years in the hobby I'm not as enthusiastic about theoretical ratios as I once was. IMHO photos of the time and place you're modeling will show what cars you need... I adjusted my own car fleet in a more negative way -- if a car wasn't something appearing in a same-era picture, then I questioned its usefulness to the layout setting. Got rid of about 25% of my (non PRR) cars that way. BTW, just as important on a given model railroad is whether a type of car is used by local industries that are modeled. For example, if you have only one industry that will take one covered hopper, you probably don't need 8 covered hoppers on the layout. This is not a matter of how many of that car the Pennsy had -- it's simply a function of how many cars contribute to your operating scheme. In my mind, cars that are "overhead" only (can't work the local industries) should be employed once there are a plurality of cars to handle each type of local traffic. If you're operating your model railroad (and if it runs at all, you should already be switching cars at industries), it will quickly become obvious which types of cars are scarce. You can experiment by adding more of these, and subtracting something else. A good friend once observed that "there may be certain things that should be in a given prototype scene. But once you have them, you will only operate the ones that run well". At the time, he was talking about N scale locomotives, but this also seems like good advice for fitting the car fleet to the model railroad. Whatever you do, don't take all our prototype research so seriously that it gets in your way. A model railroad should be fun -- however YOU define fun. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_135.1b54f594.2b84f1e5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


5)  Remember to adjust the= car frequencies for the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.
Lots of grain boxcars on Lines West to handle grain shipments, while there would be fewer auto cars, due to the sparse population,etc...



OTOH, Pennsy's "grain boxes" were just the same 40' single door car as loade= d everywhere across the system (I do agree that at any given time there coul= d probably be a lot of these parked along LW lines, waiting for the next har= vest).

Hmm - "fewer auto cars" - unless you're on some outbound route from Detroit,= which many PRR LW lines were.  Then you'd see a lot of them, even in t= he late Thirties.

Made-up ratios are all very well (and they are natural to us math/science/en= gineering types), but after 40 years in the hobby I'm not as enthusiastic ab= out theoretical ratios as I once was.  IMHO photos of the time and plac= e you're modeling will show what cars you need...

I adjusted my own car fleet in a more negative way -- if a car wasn't someth= ing appearing in a same-era picture, then I questioned its usefulness to the= layout setting.  Got rid of about 25% of my (non PRR) cars that way. <= BR>
BTW, just as important on a given model railroad is whether a type of car is= used by local industries that are modeled.  For example, if you have o= nly one industry that will take one covered hopper, you probably don't need=20= 8 covered hoppers on the layout.  This is not a matter of how many of t= hat car the Pennsy had -- it's simply a function of how many cars contribute= to your operating scheme.  In my mind, cars that are "overhead" only (= can't work the local industries) should be employed once there are a plurali= ty of cars to handle each type of local traffic. 

If you're operating your model railroad (and if it runs at all, you should a= lready be switching cars at industries), it will quickly become obvious whic= h types of cars are scarce.  You can experiment by adding more of these= , and subtracting something else.

A good friend once observed that "there may be certain things that should be= in a given prototype scene.  But once you have them, you will only ope= rate the ones that run well".  At the time, he was talking about N scal= e locomotives, but this also seems like good advice for fitting the car flee= t to the model railroad.

Whatever you do, don't take all our prototype research so seriously that it=20= gets in your way.  A model railroad should be fun -- however YOU define= fun.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_135.1b54f594.2b84f1e5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:15:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Compostion of a model car fleet (theoretical vs. I agree with Rick that photos from your era and locale are one of the best sources for deciding the model car fleet. Re Lines West autos, don't forget the X31F turtleroof PRR cars were designed to ship jeeps from Kenosha, Wisconsin (there was also a jeep plant back East as well). Also, depending on the location, gondolas with autoframe loads are certainly well photographed. As were PFE reefers. As far as the unusual cars, again it depends on the location and industries modeled. For example, vinegar tankcars and those exotic helium tank cars appear on trains on video more frequently than their numbers would dictate, but they were certainly common on certain routes in certain years. If you model FW8 which ran daily, you will need stockcars, again out of proportion to the statistics. But get yourself a lot of X29s, millgons, and hoppers and you won't go far wrong :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:12:33 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Shades of the PENNSY And I'll bet the local TV news made no mention of it! All I heard in Boston was that the airlines were hosed and that anyone traveling was out of luck. Amtrak was running on time (+/-) all day and no one said a word. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== WAMMP236@aol.com wrote: > Hello Everyone, > In this time of Amtrak and NS bashing I just > wanted to pass on this bit of info. Today Feb 17 2003, train # 40 the > eastbound Three Rivers arrived in Altoona PA at 1:18PM 40 minutes > late...Today we had had over a foot of snow and the weather only > worsened as the train headed east. The train arrived in Harrisburg PA > at 3:38PM 18 minutes early!!! The total running time was 2hr 20 > minutes with stops at Huntington and Lewistown. The train was sold > out. The PENNSY could not have done better! > > > Bill -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:42:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: photos needed of N-5c From: Jerry Britton I have a "request for help" from Bowser in regards to their forthcoming N scale N5c car. Lee English needs unit photos. He is specifically wanting to see examples of lettering and regional designations. He already has a bunch of photos (listed below) from various already published sources, so please don't repeat them. If you can help, please contact Lee directly. Thanks! P.S. Yes, this means the N5c is next in N scale...in case you didn't already know! There will be three road numbers in each paint scheme, and the paint schemes will roughly follow those available in HO scale. I have provided Lee with the 1957 cabin car roster and have requested that at least one, if not two, of the road numbers in each scheme be correct for units that had trainphones installed. I cannot comment on ETA ! On 2/19/03 8:08 AM, Bowser Mfg (bowser@bowser-trains.com) wrote: > I am looking for Reg designation on the side and > the changes on the same cars over the years. > with the 3 styles of lettering. > Below is my list of photos > > Car # Road Letter Style Where Color Region Add-ons > 23000 CR neg > 23025 CR MRing Feb 1993 > 23027 CR photo > 23051 CR photo > 23070 CR MRing Jan 1993 > 23077 CR MRing Feb 1993 > 23086 CR photo > 23110 CR MRing Jan 1993 > 23120 CR photo Brown > 23133 CR photo > 23147 CR photo > 54 Essex photo yellow > 477822 NRHX photo-web > 23035 PC MRing Jan 1993 > 23065 PC PC color guide p 109 Brown yellow lettering > 23138 PC MRing Jan 1993 > 23153 PC photo > 23153 PC photo > 23332 PC photo > 477829 PRR Old Style neg Eastern Reg Antenna > 477829 PRR Old Style Keystone 12-73 antenna > 477830 PRR Old Style neg New York Zone > 477854 PRR Old Style PRR Color guide II p.99 Western Reg > 477863 PRR Old Style Penn Power II p51 antenna > 477886 PRR Old Style photo Buckeye Reg > 477926 PRR Old Style PRR Color guide II p.100 Western Reg > 477927 PRR Old Style photo Western Reg Antenna > 477989 PRR Old Style photo Central Reg > 477989 PRR Old Style photo ????? > 478009 PRR Old Style photo "Buy War Bonds" > 477820 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477825 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477827 PRR Plain Keystone photo Yellow or white cupola > 477829 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477842 PRR Plain Keystone photo radio logo on cupola > 477844 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477846 PRR Plain Keystone PRR Color guide p99 Focal Orange > 477853 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477854 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477862 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477863 PRR Plain Keystone photo - web Junita Terminal Yellow cupola > 477865 PRR Plain Keystone PRR Color guide II p.101 antenna w/yellow cupola > 477874 PRR Plain Keystone photo Focal Orange > 477883 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477886 PRR Plain Keystone PRR color guide II p. 101 Focal Orange radio logo > on cupola > 477893 PRR Plain Keystone Keystone 12-74 > 477897 PRR Plain Keystone photo Pittsburgh Reg > 477901 PRR Plain Keystone MRing Jan 1993 Focal Orange > 477902 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477906 PRR Plain Keystone photo cupola body color > 477907 PRR Plain Keystone photo Central Reg > 477915 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477922 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477933 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477948 PRR Plain Keystone photo radio logo on cupola > 477954 PRR Plain Keystone PRR Color guide p 100 radio logo on cupola > 477967 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477982 PRR Plain Keystone PRR Color guide p100 > 477984 PRR Plain Keystone photo > 477990 PRR Plain Keystone PRR color guide II p.102 Focal Orange black > letter w/yellow cup > 478006 PRR Plain Keystone Penn Diesel Years 3 p69 > 477849 PRR Shadow Keystone photo Buckeye Region > 477870 PRR Shadow Keystone neg New York Zone > 477899 PRR Shadow Keystone PRR color guide II p.102 Buckeye reg > 477938 PRR Shadow Keystone Neg Pittsburgh > 477938 PRR Shadow Keystone PRR Color guide II p.100 antenna w/yellow > cupola > 477942 PRR Shadow Keystone photo Buckeye Reg > 477947 PRR Shadow Keystone PRR Color guide p99 > 477951 PRR Shadow Keystone photo > 477956 PRR Shadow Keystone photo - web Lake Reg Antenna > 477986 PRR Shadow Keystone photo Buckeye Reg > 477999 PRR Shadow Keystone photo Buckeye Reg > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:54:02 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Shades of the PENNSY Actually, the national news made mention of Amtrak, but I'm afraid it wasn't as good everywhere as it was for train #40. The mention included delays and cancellations and the usual rampant equipment failures that are experienced in cold weather (frozen water lines/commodes on sleeping cars, fozen doors, etc.) Other ex-PRR lines suffered similar fates. The Port Road was almost completely shut down for 24 hours or so. Hopefully, y'all got some good plow shots ! Happy Rails (my weather is 68, sunny, and the daffodils are blooming) how's yours? Bruce >And I'll bet the local TV news made no mention of it! All I heard in >Boston was that the airlines were hosed and that anyone traveling was >out of luck. Amtrak was running on time (+/-) all day and no one said a >word. > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >================================================== >WAMMP236@aol.com wrote: > >> Hello Everyone, >> In this time of Amtrak and NS bashing I just >> wanted to pass on this bit of info. Today Feb 17 2003, train # 40 the >> eastbound Three Rivers arrived in Altoona PA at 1:18PM 40 minutes >> late...Today we had had over a foot of snow and the weather only >> worsened as the train headed east. The train arrived in Harrisburg PA >> at 3:38PM 18 minutes early!!! The total running time was 2hr 20 >> minutes with stops at Huntington and Lewistown. The train was sold >> out. The PENNSY could not have done better! >> >> >> Bill > >-- > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:55:19 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features Jerry, Re: 12SEC-2SBR-1DBR 14RMT-4DBR (Plan #3975U) 1CMP-1DR-BARB-BUF-LNG-OBS (Plan #3999A) 20SEC-BUF-LNG >From Tom Madden's & Garry Spear's lists: Andrew W. Mellon 8531 PS 1-1- Bb-Bf-Sr 3975B; 3975C; 3975G; 3975K ); 3975M(4/16/34); 3975V (7/31/39) 6076 Pullman Pull. Std.; PRR Std. (3/29/33); Streamline colors (7/31/39; Pull. Std. (8/15/44) 14885 Rebuilt from Texas Route (3/29/33); Broadway Limited (7/31/39) 2410A Sold To PRR LTP 07-Apr-55 2x8; 1x16 (4/16/34); 2x8 Streamline front (7/31/39) 4T; 4T Folding (7/31/39) 1 pt; 2 pt (7/31/39) Ice 16-Apr-34 Steel plates EL; Skirting applied (7/31/39); Skirting remod. 8 5/16" (7/3/51) UC 1x18; UC 2x16 (7/31/39) Richard Beatty Mellon 8532 PS 1-1- Bb-Bf-Sr 3975B; 3975C; 3975G; 3975K; 3975M(4/16/34); 3975V (7/31/39) 6076 Pullman Pull. Std.; PRR Std. (3/29/33); Streamline colors (7/31/39; Pull. Std. (8/15/44) 12/31/48 Rebuilt from 3410A Oaks; Texas City (3/33) Broadway (7/39) 2410A Sold To PRR LTP 2x8; 1x16 (4/16/34); 2x8 Streamline front (7/31/39) 4T; 4T Folding (7/31/39) 1 pt; 2 pt (7/31/39) Ice Steel plates EL; Skirting applied (7/31/39); Skirting remod. 8 5/16" (7/3/51) UC 1x18; UC 2x16 (7/31/39) George Washington to John Endicott 6/51 7029 20C B 14Ls 3999C 6383 PRR 2411 Ice John Adams 7030 20C B 14Ls 3999C 6383 sPRR 2411 Ice No records found on first 2 cars. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm working on my passenger car pages and today am addressing the many > varieties of heavyweight steel cars the PRR had. I just completed the index > and will soon be working on the detail pages... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/passclass_xref_ps_hw.ws4d > > The above index includes all of the plans I know of, plus a count of how > many of each type the Pennsy had. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:01:44 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Compostion of a model car fleet (theoretical vs. --0-1660189765-1045688504=:53197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii RickTipton@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never really recorded the kind of information I look for now. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-1660189765-1045688504=:53197 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 

 RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


5)  Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.

Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.  I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in.  Being young then, never really recorded the kind of information I look for now. 

Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day --0-1660189765-1045688504=:53197-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:23:27 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features Jerry, 12-1 list info: Add 2411C- "Diogenes & Eupolis" 4240 & 4699 are Lot numbers. "Nutwood" is a 2410A. 4699 is the Lot number for 15 12-1's. regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm working on my passenger car pages and today am addressing the many > varieties of heavyweight steel cars the PRR had. I just completed the index > and will soon be working on the detail pages... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/passclass_xref_ps_hw.ws4d > > The above index includes all of the plans I know of, plus a count of how > many of each type the Pennsy had. > > Of the 12-1's (12 sections, 1 drawing room), can you folks help out with the > spotting features between the different versions? > > The PRR had the following 12-1's: > > (26) Plan 2410 > (6) Plan 2410A > (1) Plan 2410B ("Launfal") > (3) Plan 2410E > (4) Plan 2410F > (18) Plan 2410H > (1) Plan 2410I ("Stephia") > (84) Plan 3410 > (120) Plan 3410A > (16) Plan 3410B > (1) Plan 4240 ("Nutwood") > (2) Plan 4699 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:54:07 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Compostion of a model car fleet (theoretical vs. Ron writes: >Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >really recorded the kind of information I look for now. Actually, I made that statement . According to Tony Thompson, author of the PFE book, PFE preferred routing its reefers over the Erie, and other railroads for cargo headed to NYC and New England, as well as many other Atlantic Seaboard cities. PRR had one of the worst loss records for spoiled produce due to delays. That is not to say that PFE reefers didn't run on PRR tracks, as they would for markets soley served by PRR, but the preference was other routes. BTW, return traffic of empty reefers was a different issue and more empties traveled west on PRR than loads traveled east. Yet another isuue, although far fewer in terms of car numbers is the north south traffic. Much southern fruit was captured by FGE, but PFE had a fair amount of the imported fruit trade from southern and atlantic ports. During WWII, the car service rules were suspended and PFE had a hard time retrieving its reefers for its own use...they were grabbed by the railroad for any available loading, including non-perishable cargos, so WWII modelers like myself can add more PFE cars to the mix and are less likely to run solid blocks of one companies reefers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:19:15 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Spotting Features OK gang, I could use some additional Pullman 12-1 help! In particular, does anyone have any idea where I might find plan 2410 drawings? I would like to build a number of plan 2410 sleepers converted for troop train service, as these were commonly used during WWII. In addition, the four "brunswick" green pullmans were all plan 2410I, air conditioned. The data base says "MP" for a/c...what does that mean? Are there any photos or examples of 2410I cars that I might use to model one of these? It is my understanding that the Rivarossi 3410B 12-1 can be converted fairly easily to a 3410, which in turn closely resembled a 2410...any comments, suggestions etc? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Walthers Gons Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:50:20 +0000 My local hobby shop has a two pack of Walthers USRA gons in HO that are painted tuscan with the keystone logo and I think they are numbered in the 316xxx series. Are these legitimate cars and paint schemes? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Gons Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:19:05 -0600 Norm, I am unfamiliar with the Walther's models, but the PRR gons in the 316*** number range were the USRA class G25 gons. Specifically, they were in the range 315867-317366 (There were also other number series). These were 46' IL cars with drop ends and a wood floor. You mentioned a keystone logo, but didn't say circle or shadow. These cars were built 1919-1920, and most were retired by the mid fifties. How likely is it that any of these old cars were repainted in the shadow Keytone logo? So I think the circle keystone is legit, but I'd want to see a picture of a shadow keystone G25. And finally, I would hope they are painted freight car color, rather than tuscan. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- My local hobby shop has a two pack of Walthers USRA gons in HO that are painted tuscan with the keystone logo and I think they are numbered in the 316xxx series. Are these legitimate cars and paint schemes? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Can Motors Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:05:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2D849.D51AA2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen: At one time, Sagami made some very nice can motors. I know that they no = longer make them, but does anyone know where I can buy similar quality = motors, like Mashima? Thanks, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2D849.D51AA2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen:
 
At one time, Sagami made some very nice = can=20 motors.  I know that they no longer make them, but does anyone know = where I=20 can buy similar quality motors, like Mashima?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2D849.D51AA2A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Can Motors Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:28:55 -0500 Northwest Short Line also offers can type motors. We heard that a former manager of Sagami started a new company that now produces the motors. We prefer the NWSL over the Mashima because the shafts are longer and will accept a flywheel and NWSL universal coupling. BTW, eliminating the normal [old] Athearn drive train and replacing it with NWSL universals will eliminate most of the "drive noise" from the Athearn. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Larry Reynolds" To: "PRR-Talk" , Sent: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:05:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Can Motors > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2D849.D51AA2A0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Gentlemen: > > At one time, Sagami made some very nice can motors. I know that > they no = longer make them, but does anyone know where I can buy > similar quality = motors, like Mashima? > > Thanks, > > Larry > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:31:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] American Orient Express --part1_1a4.10b5ac0f.2b8589d6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The AOE was also carried for a time behind Amtrak's Cardinal, and offered Parlor Car service between the NEC and White Sulfur Springs. Amtrak had also operated [for a brief time] the AOE as a separate regularly scheduled train between The East and Chicago. That service was unsuccessful for AOE. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1a4.10b5ac0f.2b8589d6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The AOE was also carried for a time behind Amtrak's Ca= rdinal, and offered Parlor Car service between the NEC and White Sulfur Spri= ngs.  Amtrak had also operated [for a brief time] the AOE as a separate= regularly scheduled train between The East and Chicago.  That service=20= was unsuccessful for AOE.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1a4.10b5ac0f.2b8589d6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:25:57 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] FP-7a PAINTING QUESTION I am building the PRR 9833. It was one of the five striped, TUSCAN red FP-7a's. The only COLOR picture I have of this unit is in MR. BALL's book on page 103, or there abouts. Anyway, the unit goes to the paint shop shortly and according to the picture the HANDRAILS, GRAB-IRONS & RADIO ANTENNA structure are "BLACK". I'm sure this is correct since I have the picture. My question is: Were they ever TUSCAN on any of the other units?? I am fairly sure that the TUSCAN "E" units had TUSCAN handrails, grab-irons and antenna structures. Is it fair to say that the TUSCAN "FP" units had them black and the "E" units TUSCAN?? Hope some one can straighten me out on this matter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:56 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest F30k tie cars From: Beth Caples I am looking for information on the F30k tie cars. Anyone out there have a reference to photo's,drawings, or car numbers? Thanks , John Caples p.s. were these cars still active at the time of the PC merger? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Gons Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:51:50 -0500 The car itself is pretty good as a G25 gon. The paint is also to my eyes at least done in a pretty good freight car color. The lettering on the other hand is very suspect! The car is lettered in the Shadow Keystone scheme which was introduced in 1954 (paint mark on the Walthers car if 2/54. I don't have data for 1954 but there were still 701 G25's listed in the 10/53 ORER. The next data point I have is 10/58 at which time there were only 32 left! I doubt that many received the shadow keystone scheme with only 4 years to go. 5 were still there in 10/63 and the G25 is listed on a Shadow Keystone lettering diagram so it is possible... The real problem with the lettering is that Walthers deemed it necessary to tie these cars in with their containers and lettered the cars with a container load limit. It was the G22's that were in container service and had this lettering not the G25's. Also the return empty to lettering with no destination seems odd to me! I just wish that Walthers would run these cars in the more typical Circle Keystone scheme with out the bogus container lettering! Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Cich Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:19 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Gons Norm, I am unfamiliar with the Walther's models, but the PRR gons in the 316*** number range were the USRA class G25 gons. Specifically, they were in the range 315867-317366 (There were also other number series). These were 46' IL cars with drop ends and a wood floor. You mentioned a keystone logo, but didn't say circle or shadow. These cars were built 1919-1920, and most were retired by the mid fifties. How likely is it that any of these old cars were repainted in the shadow Keytone logo? So I think the circle keystone is legit, but I'd want to see a picture of a shadow keystone G25. And finally, I would hope they are painted freight car color, rather than tuscan. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- My local hobby shop has a two pack of Walthers USRA gons in HO that are painted tuscan with the keystone logo and I think they are numbered in the 316xxx series. Are these legitimate cars and paint schemes? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest F30k tie cars Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:58:35 -0500 John, I can't help out too much but according to my web site there were two photos in volume 32 #1 of the Keystone in Conrail paint in 1984 and 1986 so they were active post PRR. ( The car #'s CR 54139 and CR 54325.) I don't have the issue in front of me so I can't tell you more right now... The page is at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=F30 Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Beth Caples Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:08 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest F30k tie cars I am looking for information on the F30k tie cars. Anyone out there have a reference to photo's,drawings, or car numbers? Thanks , John Caples p.s. were these cars still active at the time of the PC merger? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] FP-7a PAINTING QUESTION Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 23:03:31 -0600 Hi Richard--I believe there were only four Tuscan FP-7 A units; 9832, 9833, 9834, and 9836. I would be leery of making a blanket statement about handrail colors on FP's and E's. More likely would be some variation among the units. In photos of DGLE engines some odd differences in handrail colors can be spotted. In that same photo of 9833 in Ball's book, although the A unit behind the B behind 9833is not completely in view, the yellow handrails are very obvious. In Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World, Vol. 1, by Plant and Yanosey, on p. 95, F3 9540 has yellow handrails while trailing 9524 has what we would expect to be "standard" DGLE handrails. It seems that there was always a lot of transition going on. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] FP-7a PAINTING QUESTION Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 23:38:07 -0600 Sorry--fat finger: 9836 should read 9835. Steve > Hi Richard--I believe there were only four Tuscan FP-7 A units; 9832, 9833, > 9834, and 9836. I would be leery of making a blanket statement about > handrail colors on FP's and E's. More likely would be some variation among > the units. In photos of DGLE engines some odd differences in handrail > colors can be spotted. In that same photo of 9833 in Ball's book, although > the A unit behind the B behind 9833is not completely in view, the yellow > handrails are very obvious. In Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World, > Vol. 1, by Plant and Yanosey, on p. 95, F3 9540 has yellow handrails while > trailing 9524 has what we would expect to be "standard" DGLE handrails. It > seems that there was always a lot of transition going on. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:06:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Gons In a message dated 2/19/03 9:58:53 PM Central Standard Time, robs@actel.com writes: << I just wish that Walthers would run these cars in the more typical Circle Keystone scheme with out the bogus container lettering! >> Join the group. Had em on order and was pleased to see the color and unpleasantly surprised to see the SK. I will be weathering and rusting and denting the daylights out of mine for scrap service, probably obliterating the Shadow Keystone and putting my containers in Westerfield G22s. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:47:31 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > > >> In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: >> >> >> >>> 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are >>> modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. >>> >>> >>> Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >>> routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >>> eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >>> during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >>> reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >>> really recorded the kind of information I look for now. >>> >>> Thanks. Ron >>> >>> >> > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final destination. Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the west coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Pennsy had a chunk of this PFE traffic. OTOH, I have almost no concrete evidence to this effect. There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle side into Columbus. Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everybody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were routed through Columbus. THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ice reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher mileage because: 1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing. 2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle all this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and also from Cincinnati). 3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched from the eastbound Yard A there. So the perishable traffic was organized into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the Fort Wayne). FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and older, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are often mentioned. These plants were still available to ice: 1. emergencies 2. cars originated online 3. cars before delivery online Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements. FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others. I got to watch Conrail's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection stop at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block. The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrigeration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and points east. FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:47:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact --part1_1c1.54d1dee.2b862863_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > > >> In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: >> >> >> >>> 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are >>> modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. >>> >>> >>> Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >>> routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >>> eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >>> during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >>> reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >>> really recorded the kind of information I look for now. >>> >>> Thanks. Ron >>> >>> >> > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final destination. Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the west coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Pennsy had a chunk of this PFE traffic. OTOH, I have almost no concrete evidence to this effect. There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle side into Columbus. Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everybody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were routed through Columbus. THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ice reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher mileage because: 1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing. 2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle all this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and also from Cincinnati). 3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched from the eastbound Yard A there. So the perishable traffic was organized into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the Fort Wayne). FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and older, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are often mentioned. These plants were still available to ice: 1. emergencies 2. cars originated online 3. cars before delivery online Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements. FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others. I got to watch Conrail's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection stop at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block. The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrigeration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and points east. FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1c1.54d1dee.2b862863_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard= Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes:



In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03= :31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


5)  Remember to adjust the= car frequencies for the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.


Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR routing= s.  I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an eastbound= freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle during dayl= ight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE reefers, with a=20= few other odd reefers thrown in.  Being young then, never really record= ed the kind of information I look for now.

Thanks.  Ron





Ron,

Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer er= a, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan fol= klore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in peris= hables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chica= go had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final des= tination.  Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the wes= t coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Penn= sy had a chunk of this PFE traffic.  OTOH, I have almost no concrete ev= idence to this effect.

There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules=20= on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle si= de into Columbus.  Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who= are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everyb= ody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were= routed through Columbus. 

THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ic= e reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher m= ileage because:
1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing.
2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle al= l this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and= also from Cincinnati).
3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched=20= from the eastbound Yard A there.  So the perishable traffic was organiz= ed into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the For= t Wayne).

FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and o= lder, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are oft= en mentioned.  These plants were still available to ice:
1. emergencies
2. cars originated online
3. cars before delivery online
Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't=20= fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements.

FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (= all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they= were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others.  I got to watch Conra= il's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection st= op at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block.&nb= sp; The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrige= ration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and po= ints east.

FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Exp= ress?  WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model,= the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit= Growers Express.  Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) we= nt into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there.  When FGE began=20= to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in F= GE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX=20= lettering resembles FGE lettering?

THEORY --  Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars t= raveled Pennsy into the East.  But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy= locations... you'll see them.

Hope this helps...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1c1.54d1dee.2b862863_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:42:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Profile of Four Track Right-of-Way From: Jerry Britton Just sharing this for those modeling in N scale... On the PRR's four track mains, the middle two tracks were typically elevated slightly over the outer two. If you do the math, representing this in N scale would seem almost negligible. However, for demonstration sake, I mocked up a section using HO scale cork for the center two tracks and N scale cork for the outer two tracks. The result was impressive. The difference amounted to just about the height of the rail, which actually is pretty close to prototype. I was surprised, and pleased. The advantage of using cork over posterboard (or something similar) is obvious: the cork can be curved vs. having to cut out posterboard. The next issue is track spacing. For proper track spacing, you need to leave a small gap between the two halves of the HO cork. There will likewise need to be a small gap between the HO cork and the N scale cork. Once the cork is in place, I suppose filling this crack with a bead of caulk would be preferable to filling it with ballast. Then cover the whole RoW with ballast once the track is installed. Finally, it will be required to feather the center two tracks down to the height of the N scale cork when you enter an interlocking. I'm thinking joint compound over about six inches of run. Haven't tried it yet. Super elevation on curves would be extremely tedious. To be visible in N scale it would have to be exaggerated. I haven't mocked it up yet, but I am thinking of just super elevating the entire RoW, so the outside of the RoW would be slightly higher than the front. This would provide the visual effect of trains "leaning into the curve" without the tedium of doing it on a "per track" basis. With the center tracks already elevated, I don't think this "cheat" will be as obvious. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:10:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact Rick writes: > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the >ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue >-- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were >specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of >perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was >going to switch the final destination. PFE records also support the Erie routing, so its more than folklore . However, that doesn't mean that there weren't PFE cars on the PRR, just that they were not routed over PRR to other destinations, if possible. >From a modeling standpoint, that means that rather than having a PFE to FGE ratio of 3:1, a PRR modeler might reverse that to 1:3 or 1:5. >There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train >schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the >Panhandle side into Columbus. Interesting point! Reefer traffic may well have differed in its makeup east and west of Pittsburgh. Eastbound from Chicago, solid trains of reefer would have blocks for intermediate cities. By the time these trains reached Pittsburgh they had lost many of their blocks and only had blocks for eastern PA, thereby limiting the number of "reefer" only trains (but not eliminating them) >FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit >Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, >the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by >Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) >went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began >to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in >FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much >WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little >proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But >watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Durn tootin you will! FGE, WFE and BRE had agreements to share cars during peaks. Thus, a substantial number of the WFE cars would appear in the south during harvest season, and the FGE cars would head to the Northwest for their crops. In 1941 the dominant class for WFE was the 60001-63910 series 12' 5/8" height, truss rod cars which numbered 3709 cars (Sunshine kit #34.10). This is the "signature car" for WFE. For the FGE/WFE/BRE fleet, it should be 6:3:1 with half of the FGE cars being 12' 1", and half being 12' 7", and two thirds of the WFEX cars should be the 12'5/8" truss rod cars...and I don't know about the BREX cars. Note that the FGEX car coming from IM in HO is a post war wood reefer, so it doesn't figure in my calculations, but might in yours. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Gons, COLOR Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:21:51 -0500 Andy said: "And finally, I would hope they are painted freight car color, rather than tuscan." Guess that depends on which Tuscan/freight car color you are referring to......... :-) Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" To: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Gons > Norm, > > I am unfamiliar with the Walther's models, but the PRR gons in the 316*** > number range were the USRA class G25 gons. Specifically, they were in the > range 315867-317366 (There were also other number series). These were 46' > IL cars with drop ends and a wood floor. > > You mentioned a keystone logo, but didn't say circle or shadow. These cars > were built 1919-1920, and most were retired by the mid fifties. How likely > is it that any of these old cars were repainted in the shadow Keytone logo? > So I think the circle keystone is legit, but I'd want to see a picture of a > shadow keystone G25. > > And finally, I would hope they are painted freight car color, rather than > tuscan. > > Andy Cich > > -----Original Message----- > My local hobby shop has a two pack of Walthers USRA gons in HO that are > painted > tuscan with the keystone logo and I think they are numbered in the 316xxx > series. Are these legitimate cars and paint schemes? Thanks, Norm Bell > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:39:48 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > > >> In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: >> >> >> >>> 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are >>> modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. >>> >>> >>> Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >>> routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >>> eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >>> during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >>> reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >>> really recorded the kind of information I look for now. >>> >>> Thanks. Ron >>> >>> >> > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final destination. Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the west coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Pennsy had a chunk of this PFE traffic. OTOH, I have almost no concrete evidence to this effect. There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle side into Columbus. Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everybody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were routed through Columbus. THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ice reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher mileage because: 1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing. 2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle all this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and also from Cincinnati). 3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched from the eastbound Yard A there. So the perishable traffic was organized into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the Fort Wayne). FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and older, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are often mentioned. These plants were still available to ice: 1. emergencies 2. cars originated online 3. cars before delivery online Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements. FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others. I got to watch Conrail's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection stop at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block. The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrigeration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and points east. FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:33:14 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D8ED.00196BF0 Content-Type: text/plain Okay, found the dates and issue for the "Fair of the Iron Horse" There is an ad for this event in the Sept/02 issue of Model Railroader on page 24. The event runs from June 27th thru July 6th. It is sponsored by CSX, the B&O museum and the Smithsonian. www.borail.org 770-518-9963 ( Frank Sheridan ) is the contact for more information Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 -----Original Message----- From: KNesbitt@penncro.com [mailto:KNesbitt@penncro.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:18 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse One of my copies of "Trains" has an advertisment for this, forget what issue but I'll look it up tonight. This "Fair of the Iron Horse" is sponsored by CSX and is suppossed to be a week long deal with the largest collection of steam and diesel locomotives ever, sine the one that was in the 20's. -At least this is what the ad states. I'll let the list know tommorow what issue this is in. Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:11 PM To: KNesbitt@penncro.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at that location. Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of the roof collapse and no steam in sight. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " Fair of the Iron Horse " or something ? I hope this doesn't interfere with that Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com ] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse To the group. Please excuse this non PRR post. I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting. During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred. The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%. The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time. Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century. It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D8ED.00196BF0 Content-Type: text/html Message
Okay, found the dates and issue for the "Fair of the Iron Horse"
There is an ad for this event in the Sept/02 issue of Model Railroader on page 24.     The event runs from June 27th thru July 6th.   It is sponsored by CSX, the B&O museum and the Smithsonian.     www.borail.org       770-518-9963 ( Frank Sheridan ) is the contact for more information
 
 

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

-----Original Message-----
From: KNesbitt@penncro.com [mailto:KNesbitt@penncro.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:18 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse

One of my copies of "Trains" has an advertisment for this, forget what issue but I'll look it up tonight.
This "Fair of the Iron Horse" is sponsored by CSX and is suppossed to be a week long deal with the largest collection of steam and diesel locomotives ever, sine the one that was in the 20's.      -At least this is what the ad states.  
I'll let the list know tommorow what issue this is in.
 
 

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:11 PM
To: KNesbitt@penncro.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse

The NRHS National Convention was set to take place this summer at that location.  Since there is NO big steam slated for the convention, a good guess would be that the convention might be cancelled because of the roof collapse and no steam in sight.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:06 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse

Aren't they supposed to have a big event this year in June , " Fair of the Iron Horse "   or something ?
I hope this doesn't interfere with that

Kenny


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Fitch [mailto:prrk4s@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:54 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] B&O Museum Roof Collapse


To the group.

Please excuse this non PRR post.  I feel it is important to the rail buff fraternity. Since I am on the digest list, I hope this post is not redundant at the time that I am posting.

During this heavy snowstorm a partial collapse of the roof on the B&O Museum roundhouse occurred.  The dome with its iron ring construction is still intact at this time. An Off the cuff estimate on the amount of roof loss is about 20%.  The loss is in a single section and not scattered about the building at this time.

Of course for the PRR-Talk purist remember that this building was briefly under PRR during control of the B&O about the turn of the 20th century.  It was a car shop and not an engine roundhouse and was known as Bailey's roundhouse.

Harry Fitch
prrk4s@msn.com



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2D8ED.00196BF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:39:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact --part1_1de.27757c3.2b8642b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > > >> In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: >> >> >> >>> 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are >>> modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. >>> >>> >>> Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >>> routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >>> eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >>> during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >>> reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >>> really recorded the kind of information I look for now. >>> >>> Thanks. Ron >>> >>> >> > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final destination. Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the west coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Pennsy had a chunk of this PFE traffic. OTOH, I have almost no concrete evidence to this effect. There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle side into Columbus. Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everybody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were routed through Columbus. THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ice reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher mileage because: 1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing. 2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle all this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and also from Cincinnati). 3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched from the eastbound Yard A there. So the perishable traffic was organized into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the Fort Wayne). FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and older, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are often mentioned. These plants were still available to ice: 1. emergencies 2. cars originated online 3. cars before delivery online Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements. FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others. I got to watch Conrail's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection stop at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block. The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrigeration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and points east. FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1de.27757c3.2b8642b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard= Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes:



In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03= :31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


5)  Remember to adjust the= car frequencies for the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.


Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR routing= s.  I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an eastbound= freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle during dayl= ight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE reefers, with a=20= few other odd reefers thrown in.  Being young then, never really record= ed the kind of information I look for now.

Thanks.  Ron





Ron,

Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer er= a, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan fol= klore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in peris= hables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chica= go had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final des= tination.  Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the wes= t coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Penn= sy had a chunk of this PFE traffic.  OTOH, I have almost no concrete ev= idence to this effect.

There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules=20= on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle si= de into Columbus.  Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who= are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everyb= ody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were= routed through Columbus. 

THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ic= e reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher m= ileage because:
1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing.
2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle al= l this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and= also from Cincinnati).
3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched=20= from the eastbound Yard A there.  So the perishable traffic was organiz= ed into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the For= t Wayne).

FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and o= lder, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are oft= en mentioned.  These plants were still available to ice:
1. emergencies
2. cars originated online
3. cars before delivery online
Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't=20= fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements.

FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (= all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they= were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others.  I got to watch Conra= il's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection st= op at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block.&nb= sp; The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrige= ration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and po= ints east.

FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Exp= ress?  WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model,= the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit= Growers Express.  Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) we= nt into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there.  When FGE began=20= to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in F= GE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX=20= lettering resembles FGE lettering?

THEORY --  Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars t= raveled Pennsy into the East.  But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy= locations... you'll see them.

Hope this helps...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1de.27757c3.2b8642b4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:08:51 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact Folks, If I recall correctly, it seems the Keystone article on the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal made some mention of the relationship between FGE, WFE and BREX. Seems the relationship was that FGE owned a controlling interest in BREX, which in turn owned control of WFE. (Or was it the other way around, WFE over BREX? Could be, as GN owned controlling interest over the Q.) It might be mentioned also that the areas served by PFE owners UP and SP didn't greatly overlap the areas served by WFE/BREX. It could be pointed out that the varying produce of the areas served had varying 'seasons'and I'd have to imagine the flow of reefers would be very inconstant over the course of a year, with Wanatchee apples moving at a different time than California melons. Toss in SFRD cars, URTX and ART's and we start to get a real salad bowel, so to speak. I guess this leads me to wonder who Pennsy's big connections in Chicago were? Or St.Louis? (At least down there they didn't have the Erie to contend with). It's one thing to picture the PRR on it's east end, but there were so many connections at the big midwestern gateways, and Pennsy was only one of many contenders, connecting with large numbers of midwestern and western carriers. Some, of course, were 'friendlier' than others. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Reefers - much controversy and a little Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:49:44 -0500 I seem to remember that FGE had "mechanics" on call all over the eastern part of the railroad (even in Sunbury/Northumberland)who would respond at a moment's notice if we found a load with the engine not running. When not responding to emergency calls, they routinely checked on the fuel levels, read temperatures and of course looked for signs of pilfering of the melons. Whereas one (would be thieves that is) never could guess what commodoty was in the box cars, the reefers always had salable items on board. Don't remember much talk about pilferage on the reefers however, come to think of it. Regards, WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of BPX29@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:09 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact Folks, If I recall correctly, it seems the Keystone article on the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal made some mention of the relationship between FGE, WFE and BREX. Seems the relationship was that FGE owned a controlling interest in BREX, which in turn owned control of WFE. (Or was it the other way around, WFE over BREX? Could be, as GN owned controlling interest over the Q.) It might be mentioned also that the areas served by PFE owners UP and SP didn't greatly overlap the areas served by WFE/BREX. It could be pointed out that the varying produce of the areas served had varying 'seasons'and I'd have to imagine the flow of reefers would be very inconstant over the course of a year, with Wanatchee apples moving at a different time than California melons. Toss in SFRD cars, URTX and ART's and we start to get a real salad bowel, so to speak. I guess this leads me to wonder who Pennsy's big connections in Chicago were? Or St.Louis? (At least down there they didn't have the Erie to contend with). It's one thing to picture the PRR on it's east end, but there were so many connections at the big midwestern gateways, and Pennsy was only one of many contenders, connecting with large numbers of midwestern and western carriers. Some, of course, were 'friendlier' than others. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:14:38 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > > >> In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: >> >> >> >>> 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are >>> modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. >>> >>> >>> Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >>> routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >>> eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >>> during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >>> reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >>> really recorded the kind of information I look for now. >>> >>> Thanks. Ron >>> >>> >> > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final destination. Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the west coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Pennsy had a chunk of this PFE traffic. OTOH, I have almost no concrete evidence to this effect. There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle side into Columbus. Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everybody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were routed through Columbus. THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ice reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher mileage because: 1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing. 2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle all this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and also from Cincinnati). 3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched from the eastbound Yard A there. So the perishable traffic was organized into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the Fort Wayne). FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and older, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are often mentioned. These plants were still available to ice: 1. emergencies 2. cars originated online 3. cars before delivery online Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements. FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others. I got to watch Conrail's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection stop at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block. The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrigeration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and points east. FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:55:55 -0600 Hi All! I changed this to just right of way because my comments do not have to be four track. Jerry said: > The advantage of using cork over posterboard (or something similar) is obvious: the cork can be curved vs. having to cut out posterboard. < I would ask: In HO, we could use homasote or whatever it's called that is already like cork. ie curveable. Would this be feasible? In N or HO? Jerry also said: > The next issue is track spacing. For proper track spacing, you need to leave a small gap between the two halves of the HO cork. There will likewise need to be a small gap between the HO cork and the N scale cork. Once the cork is in place, I suppose filling this crack with a bead of caulk would be preferable to filling it with ballast. Then cover the whole RoW with ballast once the track is installed. < This sounds extremely feasible, workable, and should present no problem that I know of. Time for others with more experience to chime in! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:14:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact --part1_6d.aa7e063.2b86750e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: > > >> In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: >> >> >> >>> 5) Remember to adjust the car frequencies for the line you are >>> modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings. >>> >>> >>> Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR >>> routings. I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an >>> eastbound freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle >>> during daylight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE >>> reefers, with a few other odd reefers thrown in. Being young then, never >>> really recorded the kind of information I look for now. >>> >>> Thanks. Ron >>> >>> >> > Ron, Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer era, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan folklore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in perishables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chicago had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final destination. Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the west coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Pennsy had a chunk of this PFE traffic. OTOH, I have almost no concrete evidence to this effect. There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle side into Columbus. Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everybody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were routed through Columbus. THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ice reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher mileage because: 1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing. 2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle all this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and also from Cincinnati). 3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched from the eastbound Yard A there. So the perishable traffic was organized into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the Fort Wayne). FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and older, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are often mentioned. These plants were still available to ice: 1. emergencies 2. cars originated online 3. cars before delivery online Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements. FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others. I got to watch Conrail's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection stop at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block. The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrigeration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and points east. FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Express? WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model, the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit Growers Express. Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) went into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there. When FGE began to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in FGE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX lettering resembles FGE lettering? THEORY -- Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars traveled Pennsy into the East. But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy locations... you'll see them. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_6d.aa7e063.2b86750e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/19/03 4:09:05 PM Eastern Standard= Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes:



In a message dated 2/18/03 1:03= :31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


5)  Remember to adjust the= car frequencies for the line you are
modeling...fewer PFE cars on PRR since PFE tried to avoid PRR routings.


Rick, care to elaborate on the statement that PFE tried to avoid PRR routing= s.  I ask only because I remember during the 50's and 60's an eastbound= freight that used to pass through Burgettstown on the Panhandle during dayl= ight hours that was composed almost entirely of PFE and WFE reefers, with a=20= few other odd reefers thrown in.  Being young then, never really record= ed the kind of information I look for now.

Thanks.  Ron





Ron,

Since I think everybody's mindset in this discussion is in the ice-reefer er= a, I'd have a tough time even hazarding a guess on this issue -- railfan fol= klore tells us the Erie and maybe the Nickel Plate were specialists in peris= hables, but I have a suspicion that the routing of perishables east of Chica= go had a lot more to do with the road that was going to switch the final des= tination.  Since the Pennsy went as many places as anybody, and the wes= t coast loadings were more PFE than anybody else, we should suspect the Penn= sy had a chunk of this PFE traffic.  OTOH, I have almost no concrete ev= idence to this effect.

There was enough volume to justify solid (eastbound) reefer train schedules=20= on Lines West, and I've noticed that these appear to run on the Panhandle si= de into Columbus.  Of course, mention of this irritates our friends who= are Fort Wayne fans, and from past postings, I can tell you that not everyb= ody on these lists believes ice reefers from both Chicago and St. Louis were= routed through Columbus. 

THEORY - A recurrent story says that for many years all eastbound through ic= e reefers were routed through Columbus OH even when it was slightly higher m= ileage because:
1. Columbus was as far east as traffic dared go without a reicing.
2. the big production ice plant at Columbus Yard A was expanded to handle al= l this business efficiently (eastbound cars from Chicago, from St. Louis and= also from Cincinnati).
3. cuts of reefers for each destination east could be managed in/dispatched=20= from the eastbound Yard A there.  So the perishable traffic was organiz= ed into blocks that could be moved swiftly to major PRR yards in the east. 4. this avoided the cost of a second major new icing facility (up on the For= t Wayne).

FACT - As many have pointed out in the past, other ice plants, smaller and o= lder, remained on Lines West -- Fort Wayne, Canton, and Indianapolis are oft= en mentioned.  These plants were still available to ice:
1. emergencies
2. cars originated online
3. cars before delivery online
Remember, there would always be some cars' traffic pattern that just didn't=20= fit the PRR's massive through reefer movements.

FACT -- way later than all of this (1982-1983) the through Chicago reefers (= all mechanicals by this time) had returned to the Fort Wayne route, and they= were PFE (UPFE and SPFE?) as much as any others.  I got to watch Conra= il's nightly IHEN (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) train make an inspection st= op at Mike Tower in Fort Wayne; it always had a substantial reefer block.&nb= sp; The local FGE guy would check the vital signs of each mechanical refrige= ration unit in the train, and then IHEN would pull out for Pittsburgh and po= ints east.

FACT -- your question raises one more issue -- that of the Western Fruit Exp= ress?  WFEX was much smaller than PFE, and in the era most of us model,= the owner GN had contracted to have the WFEX reefer fleet operated by Fruit= Growers Express.  Most of FGE's owners (eastern and southern roads) we= nt into Chicago, and FGE had service facilities there.  When FGE began=20= to run the WFEX fleet, it could maintain, rebuild, and repaint the cars in F= GE's Chicago shops -- aside from the goat herald, ever notice how much WFEX=20= lettering resembles FGE lettering?

THEORY --  Again I have little proof of what share of these WFEX cars t= raveled Pennsy into the East.  But watch for WFEX cars in pix of Pennsy= locations... you'll see them.

Hope this helps...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_6d.aa7e063.2b86750e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Train Antennas --0-1493111284-1045765288=:24678 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Are there other lists for other diesel locomotive types similar to the list for the ES-15's that indicate which locomotive numbers had train antennae? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1493111284-1045765288=:24678 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Are there other lists for other diesel locomotive types similar to the list for the ES-15's that indicate which locomotive numbers had train antennae? Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1493111284-1045765288=:24678-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:48:02 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Can Motors I think Q Car Co. uses Mashima motors in his trolley trucks. That might be a source for individual motors. http://www.qcarcompany.com/ Steve Bartlett Larry Reynolds wrote: Gentlemen: At one time, Sagami made some very nice can motors. I know that they no = longer make them, but does anyone know where I can buy similar quality = motors, like Mashima? Thanks, Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Train Antennas Are there other lists for other diesel locomotive types similar to the list for the ES-15's that indicate which locomotive numbers had train antennae? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:10:19 -0600 Great discussion on reefers. The Keystone of Spring 1988 in The Snapper on p. 16 carries a short article by Bill Neale which discusses trains BF-3, BF-5, and BF-7 in a mid-fifties timeframe. All were daily Enola to Buffalo trains. (Anybody smell the coal smoke from those M1's?) All included reefers in blocks. Included were loaded reefers which had come west from Philadelphia and Camden. Bruce, this means you have to run both full and empty reefers in both directions between Enola and Philly. Unfortunately, the article does not discuss reefer ownership. Rick, this issue also shows in its centerfold a great down shot of a EF-15 in Columbus, but also shown are a couple of Morrell reefers, a couple of Kingan cars, as well as an Armour reefer. All in color. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:41:43 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact Steve says: >Great discussion on reefers. The Keystone of Spring 1988 in The Snapper on >p. 16 carries a short article by Bill Neale which discusses trains BF-3, >BF-5, and BF-7 in a mid-fifties timeframe. All were daily Enola to Buffalo >trains. (Anybody smell the coal smoke from those M1's?) All included >reefers in blocks. Included were loaded reefers which had come west from >Philadelphia and Camden. Bruce, this means you have to run both full and >empty reefers in both directions between Enola and Philly. Unfortunately, >the article does not discuss reefer ownership. Indeed, and some of those loaded westbound Enola reefers would have come from Potomac Yard and Baltimore, although unfortunately for my layout, usually via the Northern Central. The Pot yard cars would be connecting from the south with produce like peaches, and the B'more cars would have bananas (and might well include some SFRD and PFE cars, tho those mostly moved out of B'more via the B&O). For the purposes of my layout, some of the reefer traffic normally carried on the Northern Central will detour up to Perryville and thence over the C&PD to Columbia and the A&S to Enola. BTW, because of my 1944 date, reefer blocks do not need to be all/predominantly one company, since the car service rules were suspended and the cars were all mixed up. In addition, reefers could and did appear in merchandise trains carrying non-perishable cargos. Finally, I'll model almost all of my reefers with closed hatched, this will work for both empties and loads with ice. There weren't too many ventilated loads shipped during June (but there were some!). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Paul R. Greenwald" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:03:21 GMT Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR-Talk Digest - 02/20/03 From: "Paul R. Greenwald" Re: Can Motors Has anyone done a re-gear/re-motor of a Boswer H-9? Thanks, Paul Greenwald paulrgreenwald@netzero.net Paul R. Greenwald, CPA paulrgreenwald@comcast.net paulrgreenwald@netzero.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:04:10 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Reefers in Pittsburgh Barry Peltier wrote: "Toss in SFRD cars, URTX and ART's and we start to get a real salad bowel, so to speak." Ah, roughage. Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] stalled train Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:11:46 -0500 Friends: Does history repeat itself??? An Amtrak train was recently stalled in Lampeter Township, Lancaster, County, PA during the snowstorm. This reminded me of the time when the GG1s got stuck near there because of ice particles being sucked into the motors. Anyone know details? Was this directly related to snow like the G's? Here's a link to Lancaster's WGAL news release about the incident: http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/a1502535.asp?vts=22020031502 Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:32:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact This is like deja vu all over again. Did we have this discussion on this list or was that another? In any case, regarding ownership, using the Great Yellow Fleet book as source, FGEX was a result of the FTC ruling in 1919 against Armour which required them to sell their fleet of cars.The VP of the Southern Railway saw this as an opportunity to put together a carline to serve the East and South. ACL, B&O, PRR, Southern and 6 other railroads formed FGEX in 1920 with 5200 cars. New Haven, N&W, and C&EI joined at the end of 1920. Skipping ahead to 1923, FGEX and GN jointly formed WFEX, adding 3000 cars. The semantics of the book is a little foggy but it appears that FGEX and CB&Q formed BREX in 1926, adding 2700 cars to the existing cars already leased from the Burlington to the FGE and WFE. I would love to see the publication of the long-rumored FGEX book which would give us more details. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] stalled train From: "Jerry @ PRR" This wasn't during the snowstorm. It was today, due to mechanical problems. On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 06:11 PM, Lewis J. Matt PhD wrote: > Does history repeat itself??? An Amtrak train was recently stalled in > Lampeter Township, Lancaster, County, PA during the snowstorm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:39:33 -0500 I used homasote on my first N gauge layout many years ago. I decided to go with it again when I started my HO layout several years ago. I'm sorry I did. First of all, Homasote is not bendable the way cork is, but it will warp. Boy will it warp. It's made out of a compressed paper substance. The stuff will soak up water in unbelievable amounts.You'll find that out when you go to ballast it. Put too much water in the wrong places and your track will turn into a roller coaster. Cutting it leaves a huge amount of gray dust flying all over the place. It does cut and shape easily. It is nice to run on because of it's sound absorbing qualities. Driving spikes in is very easy compared to wood and they hold better than you might think. Trying to bevel it for roadbed will probably leave "fuzzy" edges which are surprisingly difficult to clean up. If I ever build another layout I will not use it again. All the above is just my opinion, and I'm sharing my experiences. Others may love the stuff. Phil > Hi All! > > I changed this to just right of way because my comments do not have to be > four track. > > Jerry said: > The advantage of using cork over posterboard (or something > similar) is obvious: the cork can be curved vs. having to cut out > posterboard. < > > I would ask: In HO, we could use homasote or whatever it's called that is > already like cork. ie curveable. Would this be feasible? In N or HO? > > Jerry also said: > The next issue is track spacing. For proper track > spacing, you need to leave a small gap between the two halves of the HO > cork. There will likewise need to be a small gap between the HO cork and the > N scale cork. Once the cork is in place, I suppose filling this crack with a > bead of caulk would be preferable to filling it with ballast. Then cover the > whole RoW with ballast once the track is installed. < > > This sounds extremely feasible, workable, and should present no problem that > I know of. > > Time for others with more experience to chime in! > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:57:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way From: "Jerry @ PRR" On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 07:39 PM, Phil Paskos wrote: > I used homasote on my first N gauge layout many years ago. I decided > to go > with it again when I started my HO layout several years ago. I'm sorry > I > did. First of all, Homasote is not bendable the way cork is, but it > will > warp. Boy will it warp. It's made out of a compressed paper substance. I mount the homasote directly to 1/2" plywood of the same shape. The two together are solid. > The > stuff will soak up water in unbelievable amounts.You'll find that out > when > you go to ballast it. Put too much water in the wrong places and your > track > will turn into a roller coaster. I paint it first, which seals it. > Cutting it leaves a huge amount of gray > dust flying all over the place. Not so when you use the right blades. I use "knife" blades that are labeled "Specialty" for cutting leather, rubber, etc. Leaves a sealed edge and almost no dust at all! > It does cut and shape easily. It is nice to > run on because of it's sound absorbing qualities. Driving spikes in is > very > easy compared to wood and they hold better than you might think. > Trying to > bevel it for roadbed will probably leave "fuzzy" edges which are > surprisingly difficult to clean up. I'm pleased so far! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "marlana freitas" Subject: [PRR] TEST Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:37:33 -0500 cannot decipher encryption received --this is a test of my out going mail. thanks for your patience ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "marlana freitas" Subject: [PRR] FGEX etc>>>> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:51:55 -0500 1.] If FGEX book is in production-hope it's as well done as PFE tome. 2.] Walthers-G25--you can try "pretty nails" brand remover>>>small amount on Q-tip and rub lettering VERY LIGHTLY. ink will dissolve. refinish to your taste. 3.] In 1993 the Middle Divn. put out a flyer about P85 class cars. Were these ever made? still for sale? tried their web site, got nowhere. are they still producing decals? Anyone have info on this?? 4.] Grandfather worked for B&O in Grafton W.V.-- he would comment that the 3 major cars sent to PRR in Wheeling were reefers of hams & Florida fruit----coal----steel material. Hope this in some blanks for some. Fred in Vt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:18:11 -0500 O.K. Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And how do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. Phil > On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 07:39 PM, Phil Paskos wrote: > > > I used homasote on my first N gauge layout many years ago. I decided > > to go > > with it again when I started my HO layout several years ago. I'm sorry > > I > > did. First of all, Homasote is not bendable the way cork is, but it > > will > > warp. Boy will it warp. It's made out of a compressed paper substance. > > I mount the homasote directly to 1/2" plywood of the same shape. The > two together are solid. > > > The > > stuff will soak up water in unbelievable amounts.You'll find that out > > when > > you go to ballast it. Put too much water in the wrong places and your > > track > > will turn into a roller coaster. > > I paint it first, which seals it. > > > Cutting it leaves a huge amount of gray > > dust flying all over the place. > > Not so when you use the right blades. I use "knife" blades that are > labeled "Specialty" for cutting leather, rubber, etc. Leaves a sealed > edge and almost no dust at all! > > > It does cut and shape easily. It is nice to > > run on because of it's sound absorbing qualities. Driving spikes in is > > very > > easy compared to wood and they hold better than you might think. > > Trying to > > bevel it for roadbed will probably leave "fuzzy" edges which are > > surprisingly difficult to clean up. > > I'm pleased so far! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:35:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote From: "Jerry @ PRR" On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 09:18 PM, Phil Paskos wrote: > Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And > how > do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the > knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. > I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. Attach homasote to plywood with drywall screws, spaced irregularly. Paint exposed surface with regular wall paint. It seals the surface which prevents dust "flake off" over the years. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:40:13 -0500 Phil, You'll want to buy extra blades and use eye protection. You do tend to go through the blades quickly. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Phil Paskos" To: "PRRlist" Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:18:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote > O.K. > Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? > And how do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I > never used the knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. I > thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. > > Phil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:44:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FGEX etc>>>> In a message dated 2/20/03 8:01:52 PM Central Standard Time, mfreitas@sover.net writes: << In 1993 the Middle Divn. put out a flyer about P85 class cars. Were these ever made? still for sale? tried their web site, got nowhere. are they still producing decals? Anyone have info on this?? >> Des Plaines Hobbies bought what there was of the tooling and will release the cars this spring, if they haven't received them in time for a show already. Next to last test shots I saw looked great. Des Plaines and to a certain extent D&S have some of the freight decals. Good luck on the vaporware(as far as I am concerned) Fleet of Modernism decals. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:59:13 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers - much controversy and a little fact --Boundary_(ID_fIHogsp0k8IdppbY3nGieQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bruce, Can you tell us more about the freight trains that ran up the Northern Central from Baltimore in the 40s? Were they symbol freight trains? Would they originate from Bay View Yards? I'm modeling in HO scale Baltimore and the Northern Central connection. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS Bruce F. Smith wrote: >Steve says: > > >>Great discussion on reefers. The Keystone of Spring 1988 in The Snapper on >>p. 16 carries a short article by Bill Neale which discusses trains BF-3, >>BF-5, and BF-7 in a mid-fifties timeframe. All were daily Enola to Buffalo >>trains. (Anybody smell the coal smoke from those M1's?) All included >>reefers in blocks. Included were loaded reefers which had come west from >>Philadelphia and Camden. Bruce, this means you have to run both full and >>empty reefers in both directions between Enola and Philly. Unfortunately, >>the article does not discuss reefer ownership. >> >> > >Indeed, and some of those loaded westbound Enola reefers would have come >from Potomac Yard and Baltimore, although unfortunately for my layout, >usually via the Northern Central. The Pot yard cars would be connecting >from the south with produce like peaches, and the B'more cars would have >bananas (and might well include some SFRD and PFE cars, tho those mostly >moved out of B'more via the B&O). For the purposes of my layout, some of >the reefer traffic normally carried on the Northern Central will detour up >to Perryville and thence over the C&PD to Columbia and the A&S to Enola. > >BTW, because of my 1944 date, reefer blocks do not need to be >all/predominantly one company, since the car service rules were suspended >and the cars were all mixed up. In addition, reefers could and did appear >in merchandise trains carrying non-perishable cargos. Finally, I'll model >almost all of my reefers with closed hatched, this will work for both >empties and loads with ice. There weren't too many ventilated loads >shipped during June (but there were some!). > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --Boundary_(ID_fIHogsp0k8IdppbY3nGieQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bruce,
Can you tell us more about the freight trains that ran up the Northern Central from Baltimore in the 40s? Were they symbol freight trains? Would they originate from Bay View Yards? I'm modeling in HO scale Baltimore and the Northern Central connection.
Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS

Bruce F. Smith wrote:
Steve says:

  
Great discussion on reefers.  The Keystone of Spring 1988 in The Snapper on

p. 16 carries a short article by Bill Neale which discusses trains BF-3,

BF-5, and BF-7 in a mid-fifties timeframe.  All were daily Enola to Buffalo

trains.  (Anybody smell the coal smoke from those M1's?)  All included

reefers in blocks.  Included were loaded reefers which had come west from

Philadelphia and Camden.  Bruce, this means you have to run both full and

empty reefers in both directions between Enola and Philly.  Unfortunately,

the article does not discuss reefer ownership.

    


Indeed, and some of those loaded westbound Enola reefers would have come

from Potomac Yard and Baltimore, although unfortunately for my layout,

usually via the Northern Central.  The Pot yard cars would be connecting

from the south with produce like peaches, and the B'more cars would have

bananas (and might well include some SFRD and PFE cars, tho those mostly

moved out of B'more via the B&O).  For the purposes of my layout, some of

the reefer traffic normally carried on the Northern Central will detour up

to Perryville and thence over the C&PD to Columbia and the A&S to Enola.



BTW, because of my 1944 date, reefer blocks do not need to be

all/predominantly one company, since the car service rules were suspended

and the cars were all mixed up.  In addition, reefers could and did appear

in merchandise trains carrying non-perishable cargos.  Finally, I'll model

almost all of my reefers with closed hatched, this will work for both

empties and loads with ice.  There weren't too many ventilated loads

shipped during June (but there were some!).



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

                           __

                          /  \

  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |

 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|

 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--Boundary_(ID_fIHogsp0k8IdppbY3nGieQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:59:52 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update to my web site Good Evening, I have added two new train schedules MD-1 (Greenville to Potomac Yard), and PD-1 (Pitcairn to Toledo). I have also added a new page called Connecting Railroad Freight Schedules. It is a rough listing of connecting railroad freight schedules. Whatever railroads I had available. I want to show where some of the traffic that passes over the Pennsylvania Railroad goes in interchange. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] FGEX etc>>>> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:07:59 -0500 The P85 passenger cars in HO (and N??) were picked up by Des Plains hobbies in Chicago. I believe that they will be marketed as built-up, painted and assembled models complete with trucks and Kadee couplers by Intermountain later in the year. The decals are still available although it takes a while between ordering and receipt. To quote the owner, "We are not out of business, however we are certainly in hibernation for the time being.". Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "marlana freitas" To: Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:51:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] FGEX etc>>>> Snip > > 3.] In 1993 the Middle Divn. put out a flyer about P85 class cars. Were > these ever made? still for sale? tried their web site, got nowhere. > are they still producing decals? Anyone have info on this?? > Snip ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:13:33 -0500 I get a gallon of mis-mixed paint in a ground color for cheap and use that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ PRR" To: "Phil Paskos" Cc: "PRRlist" Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote > > On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 09:18 PM, Phil Paskos wrote: > > > Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And > > how > > do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the > > knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. > > I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. > > Attach homasote to plywood with drywall screws, spaced irregularly. > Paint exposed surface with regular wall paint. It seals the surface > which prevents dust "flake off" over the years. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:21:08 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Tie replacement Hi, I'm trying to form an understanding of track maintenance operations, in particular tie replacement. My interest in this topic is mostly so I can built a reasonable model of a work train to perform this function. My era of interest is 1929, but I'd be interested in hearing about this topic for other eras as well. I really can't recall ever seeing a photo of such a train in any of the books I have. I've seen wire trains, wreck trains, ballast-cleaning trains, but never something as mundane as tie replacement... It is my understanding that some days before the actual tie replacement work begins, a train comes along and workers distribute individual new ties to be used along the rite-of-way, dumping them parallel to (and right next to) the track where the ties will be needed. My main question is: What types of cars would make up the consist of such a train? Obviously some cars to hold the ties - are these flats, or gondolas, or something else? If they are flats, did PRR ever use bulkhead flats during the above era, or just plain flat cars? Were the ties stored any special way - today they are commonly bundled for example, but back then were they simply stacked? If so, was there any prefered way to stack them so they would be secure and not shift en route, yet still convenient for the crews? How high would the stack of ties have been? Would there be a separate car just to carry extra-long ties for switches and other special trackwork? Would these be stacked differently, since they are too long for the width of the car? Also, I would suppose some tool or supply cars might be needed? Would some type of kitchen car be included - the crews might be out in the middle of nowhere, right? How about a small crane of some sort to lift thinks heavy enuf that the crew cannot lift by hand? I imagine on the PRR such a train would normally be a day-shift out-in-the-morning and back-in-the-evening type of operation and would typically NOT include sleeping accomodations for the workers, is this right? Would a cabin car be included, or would the conductor simply ride with the crew of workers? I realize this is a lot of questions... thanks for any input. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:21:08 -0800 Subject: [PRR] passenger car window sash colors and pinstripes Hi, Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied to my inquiry on passenger car window sash colors and pinstripes. I found the discussion to be most informative. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:46:50 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Tie replacement Claus, A detailed discussion of tie replacement can be found in an article "Work Trains, Wreck Trains and Camp Cars - Wood Tie Work Trains and Tie Renewal Operations" in the June 1995 edition of MRG, pp 56-61. It includes photos of tie cars, tie replacement machinery and a tie distribution work train diagram and a complete discussion of how it all works. There are also tables showing tie spacing, tie sizes, and the organization of a PRR 1956 mechanized tie gang. The time period discussed is later than 1929 but the basics are the same. The major change would be the tie gang machines would be replaced by trackmen doing the work manually. This article was one of 13 articles carrying the major title of "Work Train, Wreck Trains and Camp Cars," that ran from January 1995 - January 1996 each dealing with a different subject. Highlands Station has been threatening for a couple of years now to consolidate and update these articles into a book. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:15:21 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Guys: To seal homosote against water, isn't exterior (water proof) better than interior? I'll second the mis-matched paint idea. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:51:02 -0500 From: jconsoli@paonline.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FP-7a PAINTING QUESTION Dick, I have photos of 9832A and 9835A showing the grabs definitely all painted Tuscan. Also have a later view of 9832A where they are black as on the photo you mentioned of 9833A. The trainphone "antenna" loops appear to be painted black (as they were not SUPPOSED to be painted due to a special black protective coating applied to them). It is really difficult to tell for sure what color the loop supports were painted in these photos due to the angles and lighting. For reference sake however, I have builder's photos of two red E8's where the supports are clearly red and loops are black. Jack Consoli Richard Poole wrote: > I am building the PRR 9833. It was one of the five striped, TUSCAN red FP-7a's. The only COLOR picture I have of this unit is in MR. BALL's book on page 103, or there abouts. Anyway, the unit goes to the paint shop shortly and according to the picture the HANDRAILS, GRAB-IRONS & RADIO ANTENNA structure are "BLACK". I'm sure this is correct since I have the picture. My question is: Were they ever TUSCAN on any of the other units?? I am fairly sure that the TUSCAN "E" units had TUSCAN handrails, grab-irons and antenna structures. Is it fair to say that the TUSCAN "FP" units had them black and the "E" units TUSCAN?? Hope some one can straighten me out on this matter. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:27:06 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote "Jerry @ PRR" wrote: > > On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 09:18 PM, Phil Paskos wrote: > > > Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And > > how > > do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the > > knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. > > I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. > > Attach homasote to plywood with drywall screws, spaced irregularly. > Paint exposed surface with regular wall paint. It seals the surface > which prevents dust "flake off" over the years. I'm going to disagree with Jerry on this. Regardless if you're going to use Homasote in the narrow roadbed size or in full sheets, using screws helps to transmit the vibration to the plywood base. It's best to use something like Liquid Nails. I also recommend using an interior bathroom/kitchen paint to seal it as it is designed to prevent moisture form entering the surface. If you're placing the Homasote on a plywood base, then you only need to seal the entire top, the sides and about 4 inches around the outside perimeter of the bottom since that will be sealed to the plywood. BTW, the painting process is especially important in humid areas to prevent swelling. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 06:30:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote From: Jerry Britton On 2/20/03 11:15 PM, "Jeff Warner" wrote: > > To seal homosote against water, isn't exterior (water proof) better than > interior? I'll second the mis-matched paint idea. > Okay, perhaps "seal" was too strong a word. If you dump water on it, yes, it will act like a sponge. Painting it seems to close up the "pores" in the surface, which reduces the surface area where water might get in (humidity). I've seen no swelling from water in 18 months. I do, however, have one very small area where tracks kinked because a heater was run underneath...ooops!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:13:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Hi Phil, I have tried several things for subroadbed over the years and I always come back to Homasoate. As others have stated, you must paint all exposed edges, even the underside. Exposed areas will absorb moisture. My own attempt at foam was not a great success. I like to hand-lay switches when possible and when time permits. Foam and cork are not a good base for this. Homasoate holds spikes very well, in wood, I have to predrill holes for spikes and in foam, there is no joy. I have even tried to used Woodland Scenic's foam roadbed and that is probably the worst material I have ever used. It doesn't hold spikes, it shifts around unless you "weld" it to the subroadbed and it "lumps" up under vertical changes. Foam's advantage is that it is uniform in thickness (usually). Homasoate is only "approximately" 1/2" thick. Even when you buy it from the same stock, it can have different thicknesses but it is still the best material around. I use the knife blades to cut it. I am cheap so I will sharpen them to extend their life. If you must use a toothed blade to cut it, have a friend hold the hose to your shop vac next to where you are cutting and you can get most of the dust. One word of caution. DO NOT use a band saw or belt sander on it within 5 miles of the layout (Don't ask). Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Phil Paskos" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:18:11 -0500 O.K. Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And how do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. Phil http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:19:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Can Motors Hi Paul, I think Alco Products made conversion kits for the K4, I1, and the H9 but the motors they use are cheap three pole motors. You might try Mainline Hobby Supply in Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. I know they carry them. I did a K4 a while back and the loco ran poorly after the remotoring job. The loco ran smooth with the Pittman motor but drew heavy current. I finally decided to make a motor mount out of brass stock and use a NWSL 36:1 gear set. Not an easy conversion but better than the Alco conversion. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Paul R. Greenwald" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:03:21 GMT Re: Has anyone done a re-gear/re-motor of a Boswer H-9? Thanks, Paul Greenwald paulrgreenwald@netzero.net Paul R. Greenwald, CPA paulrgreenwald@comcast.net paulrgreenwald@netzero.net http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tie replacement Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:01:29 -0500 With all due respect to Mr. Buchan and his contemporaries, I think one of the things that Model Railroaders totally miss the boat on in their PRR modelling is the scattering of new and used crossties along the shoulders of the tracks. I truly believe there must have been a rule in the RULE BOOK somewhere that the M of W guys "shall hinder and impede the use of railroad access roads by mechanical department forces to the greatest extent possible!" It is true that after it started raining, they would come out and burn the old crossties on site (in the pre-Sierra Club days of course). But I think the tie replacement schedule always called for the new ties to be distributed AT LEAST six months in advance of the actual work being done, and the burning of the old ties AT LEAST six months after they were pulled from the track. That way, by the time the old ties were burned, it was time to start off-loading the next round of NEW ties. Well, at least that is how it SEEMED to me! As I recall, they most of the time just coupled a couple of gons spliced by a Burro Crane and used the BC for power. No loco or cabin car associated with it. One of the few concessions the brothers made for the good of the order. WDV (blessed be the crossties that bind) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:47 PM To: 'Claus Schlund'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Tie replacement Claus, A detailed discussion of tie replacement can be found in an article "Work Trains, Wreck Trains and Camp Cars - Wood Tie Work Trains and Tie Renewal Operations" in the June 1995 edition of MRG, pp 56-61. It includes photos of tie cars, tie replacement machinery and a tie distribution work train diagram and a complete discussion of how it all works. There are also tables showing tie spacing, tie sizes, and the organization of a PRR 1956 mechanized tie gang. The time period discussed is later than 1929 but the basics are the same. The major change would be the tie gang machines would be replaced by trackmen doing the work manually. This article was one of 13 articles carrying the major title of "Work Train, Wreck Trains and Camp Cars," that ran from January 1995 - January 1996 each dealing with a different subject. Highlands Station has been threatening for a couple of years now to consolidate and update these articles into a book. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:24:58 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tie replacement Claus, A lot depends on the type of tie replacement in progress. In 1926, a great deal of this work would have been done by hand. As has been noted, the tie train, would merely have been a couple of gons, probably GR or GRA, with ties stacked longitudinally. In the 20's the train was probably pulled by an older H3 or perhaps a B or C class switcher, depending on location, and may well have had a cabin car for "markers" and as a place for the crew to ride. A crane to unload the ties would have been optional at best...in many cases the ties were probably unloaded by hand. The presence of additional camp cars would be unlikely given the small size of the crew needed, however,the crew might work out of a camp car train in a fixed location. More likely tho, this was the responsibility of the local section gang, who lived in the area. Additionally, the old ties were dug by hand, pulled (or pushed) and new ties insert by hand, and then hand tamped. Heck, I did this in the 1980's when I worked on a track gang for a couple of summers! One note on "scattered ties". I believe that in the early days, you would be far less likely to see the new ties scattered (evenly) along the ROW. Rather, the tie train would stop, and a stack of replacement ties would be unloaded, and then the train would move on a few hundred yards, and another stack...These ties would then be distributed as needed by hand, or hand cart, by the section gang. Happy Rails Bruce >Hi, > >I'm trying to form an understanding of track maintenance operations, >in particular tie replacement. My interest in this topic >is mostly so I can built a reasonable model of a work >train to perform this function. My era of interest is 1929, but >I'd be interested in hearing about this topic for other eras as >well. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:23:20 -0600 Anybody use the commercial Homosote product "Homobed"? If so, what's your impression of this product? -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:13 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Hi Phil, I have tried several things for subroadbed over the years and I always come back to Homasoate. As others have stated, you must paint all exposed edges, even the underside. Exposed areas will absorb moisture. My own attempt at foam was not a great success. I like to hand-lay switches when possible and when time permits. Foam and cork are not a good base for this. Homasoate holds spikes very well, in wood, I have to predrill holes for spikes and in foam, there is no joy. I have even tried to used Woodland Scenic's foam roadbed and that is probably the worst material I have ever used. It doesn't hold spikes, it shifts around unless you "weld" it to the subroadbed and it "lumps" up under vertical changes. Foam's advantage is that it is uniform in thickness (usually). Homasoate is only "approximately" 1/2" thick. Even when you buy it from the same stock, it can have different thicknesses but it is still the best material around. I use the knife blades to cut it. I am cheap so I will sharpen them to extend their life. If you must use a toothed blade to cut it, have a friend hold the hose to your shop vac next to where you are cutting and you can get most of the dust. One word of caution. DO NOT use a band saw or belt sander on it within 5 miles of the layout (Don't ask). Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Phil Paskos" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:18:11 -0500 O.K. Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And how do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. Phil http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:28:57 -0600 Subject: [PRR] WE stencil on steam From: John Sheets Does anyone know where 'WE' enginehouse was located? Saw stencil on a K-4 John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:53:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Trainphones on Which Locos - Answer From: Jerry Britton After discussing the trainphone installs on the GP7's/GP9's the other day, someone asked if there was a place one could find which other locos had trainphones installed. This information is also available in the MP229 "Assignment of Locomotives" documents. Both Trainphones "T" and Radio Telephones "M" are coded next to the locomotive numbers/classes, at least in some editions. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:02:58 -0500 Marvin & group, The Tuckahoe "O"Scalers have used "Homabed" on our PRSL layout with much success. It is a very good product. It comes in roughly 30" lengths. Curvable sections are knife-kerfed so that it is bendable (not for tight radii though). We glued, (yellow carpenters glue) and stapled it to the plywood sub-roadbed, then painted it with cheap black latex paint (the cheaper the better). All our ties are home-made and all rail and switches are hand-laid. The layout is approx 25'x 20' so most of the mainline trackage is curving. We have had no problems what-so-ever with the roadbed, and operation is basically flawless. I would highly recommend this product. Just remember to seal it with paint. I don't recall the cost, but it ain't cheap. A full 4'x8'x1/2" sheet of Homasote sells for about $8.00 here in South Jersey. The "Homabed" is much more expensive. Ironically, for us anyway, Homasote is manufactured in West Trenton, NJ. "Homabed" is manufactured in California from full sheets of Homasote. The stuff is shipped to the left coast, cut, milled, kerfed, sold to us, and then shipped back to NJ, about 50 miles from where it was created. Therein lies some of the expense. Still in all, a very good product. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 9:23 AM To: 'caseyj@igateway.com'; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Anybody use the commercial Homosote product "Homobed"? If so, what's your impression of this product? -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:13 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Hi Phil, I have tried several things for subroadbed over the years and I always come back to Homasoate. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Phil Paskos" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:18:11 -0500 O.K. Maybe I learned something here tonight. Phil http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:06:04 +0000 From: Christian Schonberger Subject: [PRR] New member This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_hg4DLLW3GogYvHZIIEcXvA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello all, Yesterday I decided to yoin the PRR-Talk email-list. I am in the process of collecting PRR locos and rolling stock in N scale. I thought some fellow PRR buffs might take a look at my pics online: http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/PRR/index.htm http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/freightcoll/index.htm http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/PRRpass/index.htm I don't want to bring up any subject that already has been beaten to death. Please forgive me if I do. But I do have some questions being located in southern Europe. I would love some advice what books to buy to get some insight into signaling practices, right-of-way/trackwork, structures, steam serving facilities (photos), yard operating practices etc. etc. Of course I am planning on a not too small layout (keep on dreaming LOL). Maybe someone is interested in knowing that I contacted the pewter kit manufacturer GHQ and asked if they could do a PRR 2-8-0 H8/9 conversion kit for the new Bachmann Consolidation. They are considering it. Unfortunately I missed out on the Shamhongsa brass PRR H9 some time ago and didn't find any used one till now. But I am eagerly awaiting my 2-10-4 J1 from Key. Any reply highly appreciated. :-) Best regards Christian --Boundary_(ID_hg4DLLW3GogYvHZIIEcXvA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hello all,
 
Yesterday I decided to yoin the PRR-Talk email-list. I am in the process of collecting PRR locos and rolling stock in N scale. I thought some fellow PRR buffs might take a look at my pics online:
 
 
 
 
I don't want to bring up any subject that already has been beaten to death. Please forgive me if I do. But I do have some questions being located in southern Europe. I would love some advice what books to buy to get some insight into signaling practices, right-of-way/trackwork, structures, steam serving facilities (photos), yard operating practices etc. etc. Of course I am planning on a not too small layout (keep on dreaming LOL).
 
Maybe someone is interested in knowing that I contacted the pewter kit manufacturer GHQ and asked if they could do a PRR 2-8-0 H8/9 conversion kit for the new Bachmann Consolidation. They are considering it. Unfortunately I missed out on the Shamhongsa brass PRR H9 some time ago and didn't find any used one till now. But I am eagerly awaiting my 2-10-4 J1 from Key.
 
Any reply highly appreciated. :-)
 
Best regards
 
Christian
 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_hg4DLLW3GogYvHZIIEcXvA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:42:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New member From: Jerry Britton On 2/21/03 10:06 AM, Christian Schonberger (chrissch@iol.pt) wrote: > > Yesterday I decided to yoin the PRR-Talk email-list. I am in the process of > collecting PRR locos and rolling stock in N scale. Welcome to the list! > I thought some fellow PRR > buffs might take a look at my pics online: > > http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/PRR/index.htm > > http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/freightcoll/index.htm > > http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/PRRpass/index.htm Nice pics! And a fellow N scaler to boot! > > Maybe someone is interested in knowing that I contacted the pewter kit > manufacturer GHQ and asked if they could do a PRR 2-8-0 H8/9 conversion kit > for the new Bachmann Consolidation. They are considering it. Unfortunately I > missed out on the Shamhongsa brass PRR H9 some time ago and didn't find any > used one till now. But I am eagerly awaiting my 2-10-4 J1 from Key. > Are you sure you have a 2-10-4 coming? These shipped in August 2002 and the entire run was sold out. Any unit on reservation should have been delivered to you by now. I bought a pair. You can view pics at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/key_n_j1.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:07:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Ugggh! I Hate When They Do That! From: Jerry Britton I really get peeved when you tell a manufacturer/painter/whoever that something isn't accurate when it is VERY EARLY in the production cycle, yet they choose to leave the errors in the product. Case in point: At a very bad train show in Gettysburg last summer, Robert West was showing off a work in progress, called "Pennsylvania Thunder". I expressed my concern that a few things weren't right with the painting. The painting is now available for sale...without any changes... http://www.trainpaintings.com/PennsylvaniaThunder.htm The scene is the four track main through Middletown, Pa., looking westbound. (Bob told me this himeself.) See any problems? 1) Only three cat wires over four tracks. 2) The passenger equipment is 1948 and newer...making the power line towers appear "way too new". They should be rusty and aged! 3) The passenger train coming toward the viewer should be one track over toward the right. The far two tracks are the passenger mains and the near tracks are the freight mains. Further to the west (about a mile) is a flyover to bring the passenger mains onto the near side for entry into Harrisburg. 4) Never say never, but there likely wouldn't be four signal heads on the signal bridge. There definitely weren't in the area depicted. You can view the interlocking diagram at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/roy.gif Interesting image, still, but dang I wish people would heed advice on errors...when there's time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ugggh! I Hate When They Do That! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:14:55 -0500 Jerry wrote, Interesting image, still, but dang I wish people would heed advice on errors...when there's time. Listers, Chalk it up to artistic license. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] K-4 details --0-901779840-1045848277=:92638 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What exactly are the "things" that extend out of the front of the cylinders below the center line of the pistons on most, if not all K-4's. They look like a rod with a shape something like a channel or I-beam on the end. What is their purpose? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-901779840-1045848277=:92638 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii What exactly are the "things" that extend out of the front of the cylinders below the center line of the pistons on most, if not all K-4's.  They look like a rod with a shape something like a channel or I-beam on the end.  What is their purpose?  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-901779840-1045848277=:92638-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:12:04 +0000 From: Christian Schonberger Subject: [PRR] forgot the diesel locos This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_h2gUFO/GPpIfIHLApHcHAw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Here they are: http://www.debrisfield.com/tn/transit/cschonberger/dieselcoll/index.htm Best regards Christian --Boundary_(ID_h2gUFO/GPpIfIHLApHcHAw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Here they are:
 
 
Best regards
 
Christian
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_h2gUFO/GPpIfIHLApHcHAw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:40:36 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Bowser K-4 --0-1158870179-1045849236=:89304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm finally getting around to working on a Bowser K-4 that I purchased back in the 70's and after a long hiatus from the hobby have resumed participation. I have a few questions on detailing that perhaps someone can answer. The ashpans that came with the super detail set purchased back then seem to be far too long. How are these supposed to be mounted? Anyone know of a clear photo on line that shows the ashpan detail and the injector area? Also, the after market power reverse that I have (don't know if it's Cal-scale, Kemtron, or what) doesn't seem to be correct. Anyone know the availability of a correct after market power reverse for a K-4? I will probably have some other questions concerning detailing in the future, so I thank all in advance for their help. In fact, this is one of a number of reasons I never finished this model (and others) back in the '70's. Being concerned about trying to get things right was a problem then, as information and help was not readily availabl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1158870179-1045849236=:89304 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I'm finally getting around to working on a Bowser K-4 that I purchased back in the 70's and after a long hiatus from the hobby have resumed participation.  I have a few questions on detailing that perhaps someone can answer.  The ashpans that came with the super detail set purchased back then seem to be far too long.  How are these supposed to be mounted?  Anyone know of a clear photo on line that shows the ashpan detail and the injector area?  Also, the after market power reverse that I have (don't know if it's Cal-scale, Kemtron, or what) doesn't seem to be correct.  Anyone know the availability of a correct after market power reverse for a K-4?  I will probably have some other questions concerning detailing in the future, so I thank all in advance for their help.  In fact, this is one of a number of reasons I never finished this model (and others)  back in the '70's. Being concerned about trying to get things right was a problem Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-1158870179-1045849236=:89304-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weinland" Subject: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:07:42 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2D9A1.D60C7D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over the = past few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I found = this list! I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for = information on the various towers there with special interest in my = current project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at:=20 http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/AL= VERY%20red%20bridge.jpg=20 Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the building = look like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience = that they would care to share with me?=20 Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The = photographer is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are the = passenger tracks that run north of the freight yard and south of the = shops. 2) The main building is brick. The Tower addition on the south = west corner is wooden. 3) The main brick building is 25 feet deep and 45 = feet long. The two lower floors are almost 21 feet tall. The third floor = is just over 11 feet tall. 4) The wooden tower addition to the building = protrudes 3 feet out to the west of the building. It appears that it = also protrudes 3 feet out to the south (unseen). 5) The tower is 14 feet = on the west side and I think it's about 17 feet across the south = (unseen) side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 inches high.=20 I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. I don't = even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the other = Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be greatly = appreciated. Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. = Thanks in advance. Ron rkweinland@knology.net ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2D9A1.D60C7D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over the = past=20 few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I found this = list!

I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for = information=20 on the various towers there with special interest in my current project = - ROSE=20 Tower. I found this great photo at:=20

http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecur= ve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/ALVERY%20red%20bridge.jpg=20

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the building = look=20 like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience that = they would=20 care to share with me?=20

Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The = photographer=20 is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are the passenger = tracks that=20 run north of the freight yard and south of the shops. 2) The main = building is=20 brick. The Tower addition on the south west corner is wooden. 3) The = main brick=20 building is 25 feet deep and 45 feet long. The two lower floors are = almost 21=20 feet tall. The third floor is just over 11 feet tall. 4) The wooden = tower=20 addition to the building protrudes 3 feet out to the west of the = building. It=20 appears that it also protrudes 3 feet out to the south (unseen). 5) The = tower is=20 14 feet on the west side and I think it's about 17 feet across the south = (unseen) side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 inches = high.=20

I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. I = don't even=20 know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the other = Altoona=20 Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be greatly = appreciated.

Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. = Thanks in=20 advance.

Ron

rkweinland@knology.net

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2D9A1.D60C7D60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] K-4 details What exactly are the "things" that extend out of the front of the cylinders below the center line of the pistons on most, if not all K-4's. They look like a rod with a shape something like a channel or I-beam on the end. What is their purpose? Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:36:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Ugggh! I Hate When They Do That! Greetings to Jerry and the List: FYI, the artist's website identifies the location as elsewhere -- south of Newark on the NEC. Here's the text from the site's description of the painting, reproduced without comment: "Being a railroad illustrator gives Robert the unique advantage of creating images out of his imagination based on realistic scenarios. After the initial burst of creativity comes the extensive research necessary to recreate an exact moment out of the past. For years Robert has wanted to paint a Pennsylvania GG1 pulling a matched consist in a thunderstorm. Because this unique locomotive gets its power from overhead electrical wires known as catenary, he felt a thunderstorm was appropriate for effect to evoke powerful imagery. Robert chose the area south of Newark, New Jersey because of the heavy side industry typical in the region. In order to convey the sense of speed, which was typically 110 mph, Robert decided to have the train slightly leaning as it pulls out of an elevated high speed curve. To increase this effect, Robert blurred the passing northbound trailing observation car of the Broadway Limited. This was another in Robert's long line of 'theme and deployment' pieces, where Robert can literally explode in the canvas with emotion. Can you hear the thunder?" Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:39:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ugggh! I Hate When They Do That! From: Jerry Britton On 2/21/03 1:36 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > FYI, the artist's website identifies the location as elsewhere -- south > of Newark on the NEC. Here's the text from the site's description of the > painting, reproduced without comment: Ah, thanks, Dan! I had not read the site and was going by what Robert told me personally at the Gettysburg show last summer. He said Middletown, and the one plant off to the right in the distance could pass for one that does exist in Middletown. > > "Being a railroad illustrator gives Robert the unique advantage of > creating images out of his imagination based on realistic scenarios. > After the initial burst of creativity comes the extensive research > necessary to recreate an exact moment out of the past. For years Robert > has wanted to paint a Pennsylvania GG1 pulling a matched consist in a > thunderstorm. Because this unique locomotive gets its power from > overhead electrical wires known as catenary, he felt a thunderstorm was > appropriate for effect to evoke powerful imagery. Robert chose the area > south of Newark, New Jersey because of the heavy side industry typical > in the region. In order to convey the sense of speed, which was > typically 110 mph, Robert decided to have the train slightly leaning as > it pulls out of an elevated high speed curve. To increase this effect, > Robert blurred the passing northbound trailing observation car of the > Broadway Limited. This was another in Robert's long line of 'theme and > deployment' pieces, where Robert can literally explode in the canvas > with emotion. Can you hear the thunder?" > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:57:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C2D9B9.9730F360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is far different appearance than the way I remember Rose Tower in 1958 when I worked in Altoona. The roof had been entirely rebuilt and did not have anything in the way of cupolas, dormers or whatever you call the stuff on the roof. Also the tower portion had been amputated. You are correct in your observations that a- the view looks southeasterly, and b- that the two tracks in the foreground were the passenger main tracks, which brings up a funny story. Take a look at the window in the lower left hand corner of the building. Note particularly how close to the track it is. I would say 15 feet would be a good guess as to how close to the CENTERLINE of the track that window was. Well, that happened to be the Trainmaster's Office. Not only was it the Trainmaster's Office, but the TM, Ralph Decker in those days, used to sit in his chair with the back tilted up against the windowsill and his head literally resting against the glass. I will never forget the first day I visited Ralph in that office. He was sitting in the tilted position, when an eastbound passenger train (probably 50 the Admiral running a little late) roared past. When I say roared past, I mean ROARED past. Every window pain in the entire building shook and rattled. I personally was looking for a window to jump out of. Ralph kind of grinned, never moved a muscle, and pointed over his shoulder, "Best damned maintained piece of track on the entire Pennsylvania Railroad! Gets inspected EVERY DAY by the Trainmaster himself!" I found the picture at : http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs and go to the Altoona and Juniata photos page and scroll down to the bottom right hand photo, in case you had trouble locating it. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weinland Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:08 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over the past few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I found this list! I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for information on the various towers there with special interest in my current project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/A LVERY%20red%20bridge.jpg Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the building look like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience that they would care to share with me? Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The photographer is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are the passenger tracks that run north of the freight yard and south of the shops. 2) The main building is brick. The Tower addition on the south west corner is wooden. 3) The main brick building is 25 feet deep and 45 feet long. The two lower floors are almost 21 feet tall. The third floor is just over 11 feet tall. 4) The wooden tower addition to the building protrudes 3 feet out to the west of the building. It appears that it also protrudes 3 feet out to the south (unseen). 5) The tower is 14 feet on the west side and I think it's about 17 feet across the south (unseen) side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 inches high. I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. I don't even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the other Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be greatly appreciated. Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. Thanks in advance. Ron rkweinland@knology.net ------=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C2D9B9.9730F360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
This=20 is far different appearance than the way I remember Rose Tower in 1958 = when I=20 worked in Altoona.  The roof had been entirely rebuilt and did not = have=20 anything in the way of cupolas, dormers or whatever you call the stuff = on the=20 roof.  Also the tower portion had been = amputated.
 
You=20 are correct in your observations that a- the view looks southeasterly, = and b-=20 that the two tracks in the foreground were the passenger main tracks, = which=20 brings up a funny story.
 
Take a=20 look at the window in the lower left hand corner of the building.  = Note=20 particularly how close to the track it is.  I would say 15 feet = would be a=20 good guess as to how close to the CENTERLINE of the track that window = was. =20 Well, that happened to be the Trainmaster's Office.  Not only was = it the=20 Trainmaster's Office, but the TM, Ralph Decker in those days, used to = sit in his=20 chair with the back tilted up against the windowsill and his head = literally=20 resting against the glass.
 
I will=20 never forget the first day I visited Ralph in that office.  He was=20 sitting  in the tilted  position, when an eastbound passenger = train=20 (probably 50 the Admiral running a little late) roared past.  When = I say=20 roared past, I mean ROARED past.  Every window pain in the entire = building=20 shook and rattled.  I personally was looking for a window to jump = out=20 of.
 
Ralph=20 kind of grinned, never moved a muscle, and pointed over his shoulder, = "Best=20 damned maintained piece of track on the entire Pennsylvania = Railroad!  Gets=20 inspected EVERY DAY by the Trainmaster himself!"
 
I=20 found the picture at :  http://www.trainweb.= org/horseshoecurve-nrhs
and go to the Altoona and Juniata photos page = and=20 scroll down to the bottom right hand photo, in case you had trouble locating=20 it.
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 Weinland
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:08 = PM
To:=20 PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE=20 Tower

I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over = the past=20 few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I found = this list!=20

I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for=20 information on the various towers there with special interest in my = current=20 project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at:=20

http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecur= ve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/ALVERY%20red%20bridge.jpg=20

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the = building look=20 like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience that = they=20 would care to share with me?=20

Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The = photographer=20 is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are the passenger = tracks=20 that run north of the freight yard and south of the shops. 2) The main = building is brick. The Tower addition on the south west corner is = wooden. 3)=20 The main brick building is 25 feet deep and 45 feet long. The two = lower floors=20 are almost 21 feet tall. The third floor is just over 11 feet tall. 4) = The=20 wooden tower addition to the building protrudes 3 feet out to the west = of the=20 building. It appears that it also protrudes 3 feet out to the south = (unseen).=20 5) The tower is 14 feet on the west side and I think it's about 17 = feet across=20 the south (unseen) side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 = inches=20 high.=20

I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. I = don't=20 even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the = other=20 Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be = greatly=20 appreciated.=20

Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. = Thanks=20 in advance.=20

Ron

rkweinland@knology.net

------=_NextPart_000_00B7_01C2D9B9.9730F360-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:46:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Bowser K-4 --0-322424565-1045856793=:21475 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ouch!! Looks like I should have checked out the Bowser web site before sending this inquiry. There are a lot of differences between the current K-4 offering and the kit I have from the 70's. Looks like a parts order from Bowser in the near future. Ron Ronald Di Orio wrote:I'm finally getting around to working on a Bowser K-4 that I purchased back in the 70's and after a long hiatus from the hobby have resumed participation. I have a few questions on detailing that perhaps someone can answer. The ashpans that came with the super detail set purchased back then seem to be far too long. How are these supposed to be mounted? Anyone know of a clear photo on line that shows the ashpan detail and the injector area? Also, the after market power reverse that I have (don't know if it's Cal-scale, Kemtron, or what) doesn't seem to be correct. Anyone know the availability of a correct after market power reverse for a K-4? I will probably have some other questions concerning detailing in the future, so I thank all in advance for their help. In fact, this is one of a number of reasons I never finished this model (and others) back in the '70's. Being concerned about trying to get things right was a problem then, as inf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-322424565-1045856793=:21475 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Ouch!!  Looks like I should have checked out the Bowser web site before sending this inquiry.  There are a lot of differences between the current K-4 offering and the kit I have from the 70's.  Looks like a parts order from Bowser in the near future.  Ron

 Ronald Di Orio <prr2249@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm finally getting around to working on a Bowser K-4 that I purchased back in the 70's and after a long hiatus from the hobby have resumed participation.  I have a few questions on detailing that perhaps someone can answer.  The ashpans that came with the super detail set purchased back then seem to be far too long.  How are these supposed to be mounted?  Anyone know of a clear photo on line that shows the ashpan detail and the injector area?  Also, the after market power reverse that I have (don't know if it's Cal-scale, Kemtron, or what) doesn't seem to be correct.  Anyone know the availability of a correct after market power reverse for a K-4?  I will probably have some other questions concerning detailing in the future, so I thank all in advance for their help.  In fact, this is one of a number of reasons I never finished this model (and others) 
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-322424565-1045856793=:21475-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:59:48 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Tie replacement Bill, et al., Bill's right about most modelers missing a modeling opportunity in the scattering of new and used ties along the ROW. However, given that tie renewals typically were made ideally-roughly on a six year cycle basis* and were typically installed within a few months of distribution and of all the miles of track in a region/division only (in theory) 1/6th would be scheduled for tie renewal each year the probability of finding ties all over the place in relatively low. However, Bill's encountering of ties along the ROW was most likely during wreck operations as the mechanical guys, from my experience, rarely ventured beyond the shop and yard areas and didn't walk along the ROW like us MW guys did all the time. Therefore, it stands to reason that an area needing tie renewal had a higher probability of being derailment prone just from the fact that the tie condition had deteriorated, perhaps to a point were the track structure was out of FRA tolerance** for the MAS. This was especially true in the later years of the PRR when the problems of deferred maintenance began to manifest itself in spades. But to set the record straight, us MW guys actually were more of a nuisance and annoyance with our tie distribution to the train and engine crews than the mechanical guys. ;^) Old ties were originally stacked in piles of about 8-10 along the shoulder and set on fire using a fusee, but only during periods when the probability of wayside grass and shrub fires were at a minimum. Ahhhh, there's nothing like the smell of burning creosote early in the morning. ;^) BTW, those piles burned, actually smoldered, for quite some time. Later of course DEP/EPA regulations precluded burning. For a period tie chippers were used to scatter wood chips along the ROW but that didn't last long. For awhile ties to be replaced were cut into three pieces with a "tie axe" before being removed from the track, but this was beyond the PRR period. May times old ties had to be picked up. This was low priority work as during that era, manpower was short and was needed on more pressing maintenance matters not mundane clean-up work. Also budgets were such that "wasting" money on a work train to pick up ties was not something to do. Work trains are expensive operations given T&E crew costs, diesel fuel costs, etc. Therefore, to get them out of Bill's and other's way they were thrown off the shoulder or more conveniently down an embankment. Most of my experience with tie distribution was using work trains not Burro cranes. We would use a Burro crane if: 1. It was equipped with couplers - many Burro's did not have couplers. And those that did when taking cars out beyond the boundaries of the MW yard area usually needed a "short crew." That's a conductor only [hopefully less than 5'6" ;^)]- work rules. Of course locomotive cranes (which did have couplers) could also be used. 2. There was only one or two gons of ties to be distributed, large tie renewals required several gons of ties. 3. The most likely use of a crane alone (w/o train) would be a gon of one or two sets of switch timbers to an interlocking location. 4. Also the ties would most likely be manually thrown off the gon not handled by a crane. Tie distribution work trains would be compromised of several gons of ties, maybe a riding car for the MW guys that were going to manually throw the ties off and a cabin for the train crew and a place to hang the obligatory markers - thus making the train complete.*** God forbid the train crew didn't have it's cabin. In later years a class F30K may be included (these conversion tie cars came in at the very end of the PRR). In my experience cranes were typically not used to distribute ties. I can expound on this more if you all like. There might also be a gon of spikes (in kegs), which most likely would be unloaded with a crane and magnet. Tie distribution would normally be accomplished by a local track gang, while the tie renewal itself would be done (in later years) by a mechanized divisional or regional gang. The tie gangs roamed from place to place within the division or region depending where the tie renewal work was to take place and lived out of camp cars spotted on a siding near the work. The gang got to the job site by riding the machinery back and forth from the siding to the work location. We tried to make tie renewal jobs last for a week so the gang's equipment and camp cars could be moved during the weekend while the gang was home. Tie renewal was a single shift daylight job. Prior to mechanization, tie renewal work was done manually usually by the section gang, so no camp cars. * Given a typical tie life of 30 years, and 3264 ties/mile in theory 108 ties/year would fail. Therefore, over a six year period 648 ties/mile could be expected to fail. And it was determined during tie gang mechanization that 500-600 ties/mile was a good productivity renewal rate for a gang. In later years, during the deferred maintenance era, the six-year cycle plan was greatly extended. Hard to say what the cycle time was then, but would be interesting to research. By the by, surfacing of the track usually followed the tie renewal and in theory surfacing should have taken place again three years later. ** FRA Track standards were not in place during the PRR days; however, I use the term to illustrate the point that trains were running at speeds above what the track structure in its extant condition would be safe for. I.e. the MW department had not issued a temporary slow order for the section involved. Actually in the later days of the PRR this would have resulted in a relatively high number of miles of track under slow order and during PC daze that would increase even more dramatically. *** Many times the MW gang rode out to the distribution site in their MW bus and met the work train when it arrived. This way they were not delayed in returning home when finished with the job. As work trains, especially mty ones, had a habit of being delayed by dispatchers as low priority trains. No sense paying an MW crew overtime while sitting in a siding when they could be home already, via the highways. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Cassatt Tower Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:12:20 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C2D9BB.A0F333C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can any of the subsribers to this network tell me or know when the Tower = at Casatt was built and was it built by the NYP&N or the PRR or the PB&W = when they took over the NYP&N RR. Tower is located on the banks of the Pocomoke River in Pocomoke City, MD = and guards the swing bridge and signals and switches which covered the = old Double Track into Single Track over the Bridge and back to Double = Tranck to Cape Charles, VA. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage Ret Rail and BMCM USCG-Ret. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C2D9BB.A0F333C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can any of the subsribers to this network tell me or know when the = Tower at=20 Casatt was built and was it built by the NYP&N or the PRR or the = PB&W=20 when they took over the NYP&N RR.
 
Tower is located on the banks of the Pocomoke River in Pocomoke = City, MD=20 and guards the swing bridge and signals and switches which covered the = old=20 Double Track into Single Track over the Bridge and back to Double Tranck = to Cape=20 Charles, VA.
 
 
=
 
 
Lee Burbage
Ret Rail and BMCM USCG-Ret.
------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C2D9BB.A0F333C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Ties on the Right of Way Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:34:17 -0500 Well, Mr. Al, let me tell you THIS about "That". We M of E guys spent a LOT of time on the right of way during the era of the first generation diesels, particularly the Baldwin sharks. We usually were carrying JUMPER CABLES for dead diesels with dead batteries. Now the jumper cables in your family Mercedies might be only five feet long or so, but the locomotive cables were something like 60 FEET LONG, and there were two of them. It sure would have been nice to have been able to simply drive our cars along the access road and pop the jumpers out of the trunk and jump those babies. When there were cross ties strewn along the road, it made for lots of extra work dragging those cables to their destination. Usually if one unit could still move the train, the thoughful crew would boogie on up to a highway overpass, go to a phone and call us for help, and then find a cab that was still warm, curl up and watch our poor electrician strain his milk while he dragged them cables up the embankment by himself. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 3:00 PM To: 'Bill Volkmer'; 'Claus Schlund'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Tie replacement Bill, et al., Bill's right about most modelers missing a modeling opportunity in the scattering of new and used ties along the ROW. However, given that tie renewals typically were made ideally-roughly on a six year cycle basis* and were typically installed within a few months of distribution and of all the miles of track in a region/division only (in theory) 1/6th would be scheduled for tie renewal each year the probability of finding ties all over the place in relatively low. However, Bill's encountering of ties along the ROW was most likely during wreck operations as the mechanical guys, from my experience, rarely ventured beyond the shop and yard areas and didn't walk along the ROW like us MW guys did all the time. Therefore, it stands to reason that an area needing tie renewal had a higher probability of being derailment prone just from the fact that the tie condition had deteriorated, perhaps to a point were the track structure was out of FRA tolerance** for the MAS. This was especially true in the later years of the PRR when the problems of deferred maintenance began to manifest itself in spades. But to set the record straight, us MW guys actually were more of a nuisance and annoyance with our tie distribution to the train and engine crews than the mechanical guys. ;^) Old ties were originally stacked in piles of about 8-10 along the shoulder and set on fire using a fusee, but only during periods when the probability of wayside grass and shrub fires were at a minimum. Ahhhh, there's nothing like the smell of burning creosote early in the morning. ;^) BTW, those piles burned, actually smoldered, for quite some time. Later of course DEP/EPA regulations precluded burning. For a period tie chippers were used to scatter wood chips along the ROW but that didn't last long. For awhile ties to be replaced were cut into three pieces with a "tie axe" before being removed from the track, but this was beyond the PRR period. May times old ties had to be picked up. This was low priority work as during that era, manpower was short and was needed on more pressing maintenance matters not mundane clean-up work. Also budgets were such that "wasting" money on a work train to pick up ties was not something to do. Work trains are expensive operations given T&E crew costs, diesel fuel costs, etc. Therefore, to get them out of Bill's and other's way they were thrown off the shoulder or more conveniently down an embankment. Most of my experience with tie distribution was using work trains not Burro cranes. We would use a Burro crane if: 1. It was equipped with couplers - many Burro's did not have couplers. And those that did when taking cars out beyond the boundaries of the MW yard area usually needed a "short crew." That's a conductor only [hopefully less than 5'6" ;^)]- work rules. Of course locomotive cranes (which did have couplers) could also be used. 2. There was only one or two gons of ties to be distributed, large tie renewals required several gons of ties. 3. The most likely use of a crane alone (w/o train) would be a gon of one or two sets of switch timbers to an interlocking location. 4. Also the ties would most likely be manually thrown off the gon not handled by a crane. Tie distribution work trains would be compromised of several gons of ties, maybe a riding car for the MW guys that were going to manually throw the ties off and a cabin for the train crew and a place to hang the obligatory markers - thus making the train complete.*** God forbid the train crew didn't have it's cabin. In later years a class F30K may be included (these conversion tie cars came in at the very end of the PRR). In my experience cranes were typically not used to distribute ties. I can expound on this more if you all like. There might also be a gon of spikes (in kegs), which most likely would be unloaded with a crane and magnet. Tie distribution would normally be accomplished by a local track gang, while the tie renewal itself would be done (in later years) by a mechanized divisional or regional gang. The tie gangs roamed from place to place within the division or region depending where the tie renewal work was to take place and lived out of camp cars spotted on a siding near the work. The gang got to the job site by riding the machinery back and forth from the siding to the work location. We tried to make tie renewal jobs last for a week so the gang's equipment and camp cars could be moved during the weekend while the gang was home. Tie renewal was a single shift daylight job. Prior to mechanization, tie renewal work was done manually usually by the section gang, so no camp cars. * Given a typical tie life of 30 years, and 3264 ties/mile in theory 108 ties/year would fail. Therefore, over a six year period 648 ties/mile could be expected to fail. And it was determined during tie gang mechanization that 500-600 ties/mile was a good productivity renewal rate for a gang. In later years, during the deferred maintenance era, the six-year cycle plan was greatly extended. Hard to say what the cycle time was then, but would be interesting to research. By the by, surfacing of the track usually followed the tie renewal and in theory surfacing should have taken place again three years later. ** FRA Track standards were not in place during the PRR days; however, I use the term to illustrate the point that trains were running at speeds above what the track structure in its extant condition would be safe for. I.e. the MW department had not issued a temporary slow order for the section involved. Actually in the later days of the PRR this would have resulted in a relatively high number of miles of track under slow order and during PC daze that would increase even more dramatically. *** Many times the MW gang rode out to the distribution site in their MW bus and met the work train when it arrived. This way they were not delayed in returning home when finished with the job. As work trains, especially mty ones, had a habit of being delayed by dispatchers as low priority trains. No sense paying an MW crew overtime while sitting in a siding when they could be home already, via the highways. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Cassatt Tower Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:28:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C2D9BD.DA7F0900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kelling: Yes you can still photo it from the outside it is in good = shape and still used when the Bridge Tender is summoned to open or close = the bridge. With this Orange Alert on you have to be acreful the Police = are around watching for the RR. Front windows are boarded up except one of the three. A Signalman uses = the bottom section of the Tower as an Office. Lee ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Kelling=20 To: leeprrswitchkey@msn.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Cassatt Tower Just curious, what kind of shape is it in? Photogenic? >>> "edmund burbage" 02/21/03 03:12PM >>> Can any of the subsribers to this network tell me or know when the Tower = at Casatt was built and was it built by the NYP&N or the PRR or the PB&W = when they took over the NYP&N RR. Tower is located on the banks of the Pocomoke River in Pocomoke City, MD = and guards the swing bridge and signals and switches which covered the = old Double Track into Single Track over the Bridge and back to Double = Tranck to Cape Charles, VA. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage Ret Rail and BMCM USCG-Ret. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C2D9BD.DA7F0900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Jim Kelling: Yes you can still photo it from the outside it = is in=20 good shape and still used when the Bridge Tender is summoned to open or = close=20 the bridge. With this Orange Alert on you have to be acreful the Police = are=20 around watching for the RR.
 
Front windows are boarded up except one of the three.  A = Signalman=20 uses the bottom section of the Tower as an Office.
 
Lee
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cassatt Tower

Just curious, what kind of shape is it in? =20 Photogenic?

>>> "edmund burbage" <leeprrswitchkey@msn.com> = 02/21/03=20 03:12PM >>>
Can any of the subsribers to this network tell me or know when the = Tower at=20 Casatt was built and was it built by the NYP&N or the PRR or the = PB&W=20 when they took over the NYP&N RR.
 
Tower is located on the banks of the Pocomoke River in Pocomoke = City, MD=20 and guards the swing bridge and signals and switches which covered the = old=20 Double Track into Single Track over the Bridge and back to Double Tranck = to Cape=20 Charles, VA.
 
 
=
 
 
Lee Burbage
Ret Rail and BMCM USCG-Ret.
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C2D9BD.DA7F0900-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:30 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: Ties on the Right of Way Bill, I got a great chuckle out of your post. Yes - I had forgotten about the hazards of the early diesel daze, good show. Actually putting ties off the shoulder and on the access road got them out of the T&E crews way. Geeeezzzzzzz, just can't please everybody. ;^) Ties on access roads were also a hazard to MW guys driving also. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weinland" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:27:07 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C2D9BD.B20FA010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageBill, Thanks for the comments on ROSE and the great story. I am modeling the = late 1950's Altoona yard and am trying to add details that make the = drastically condensed layout recongizable as Altoona. Your comments on = the roof and missing wooden tower section of the building will be a = great help. Since you have firsthand knowledge of ROSE, I hope you'll take a moment = to answer a few questions: 1) Are the 2 unseen sides of the building similar looking to the 2 sides = seen in the picture? 2) Did they brick over the windows where the tower used to be or were = they glass? 3) Where is the door? 4) Are there any other else that stand out I should add to the model = (outside stairs, signs, lights, ...) Thanks again Bill. I'll post a picture of the model when its done so you = can tell me how close I got. Ron ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Volkmer=20 To: 'Weinland' ; PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:57 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower This is far different appearance than the way I remember Rose Tower in = 1958 when I worked in Altoona. The roof had been entirely rebuilt and = did not have anything in the way of cupolas, dormers or whatever you = call the stuff on the roof. Also the tower portion had been amputated. You are correct in your observations that a- the view looks = southeasterly, and b- that the two tracks in the foreground were the = passenger main tracks, which brings up a funny story. Take a look at the window in the lower left hand corner of the = building. Note particularly how close to the track it is. I would say = 15 feet would be a good guess as to how close to the CENTERLINE of the = track that window was. Well, that happened to be the Trainmaster's = Office. Not only was it the Trainmaster's Office, but the TM, Ralph = Decker in those days, used to sit in his chair with the back tilted up = against the windowsill and his head literally resting against the glass. I will never forget the first day I visited Ralph in that office. He = was sitting in the tilted position, when an eastbound passenger train = (probably 50 the Admiral running a little late) roared past. When I say = roared past, I mean ROARED past. Every window pain in the entire = building shook and rattled. I personally was looking for a window to = jump out of. Ralph kind of grinned, never moved a muscle, and pointed over his = shoulder, "Best damned maintained piece of track on the entire = Pennsylvania Railroad! Gets inspected EVERY DAY by the Trainmaster = himself!" I found the picture at : http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs and go to the Altoona and Juniata photos page and scroll down to the = bottom right hand photo, in case you had trouble locating it. Bill Volkmer=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Weinland Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:08 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE Tower I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over = the past few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I = found this list!=20 I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for = information on the various towers there with special interest in my = current project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at:=20 = http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/AL= VERY%20red%20bridge.jpg=20 Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the building = look like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience = that they would care to share with me?=20 Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The = photographer is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are the = passenger tracks that run north of the freight yard and south of the = shops. 2) The main building is brick. The Tower addition on the south = west corner is wooden. 3) The main brick building is 25 feet deep and 45 = feet long. The two lower floors are almost 21 feet tall. The third floor = is just over 11 feet tall. 4) The wooden tower addition to the building = protrudes 3 feet out to the west of the building. It appears that it = also protrudes 3 feet out to the south (unseen). 5) The tower is 14 feet = on the west side and I think it's about 17 feet across the south = (unseen) side. 6) The windows are 34 inches wide and 68 inches high.=20 I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. I = don't even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the = other Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be = greatly appreciated.=20 Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post here. = Thanks in advance.=20 Ron rkweinland@knology.net ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C2D9BD.B20FA010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Bill,
 
Thanks for the comments on ROSE and the = great=20 story. I am modeling the late 1950's Altoona yard and am trying to add = details=20 that make the drastically condensed layout recongizable as Altoona. Your = comments on the roof and missing wooden tower section of the building = will be a=20 great help.
 
Since you have firsthand knowledge of = ROSE, I hope=20 you'll take a moment to answer a few questions:
 
1) Are the 2 unseen sides of the = building similar=20 looking to the 2 sides seen in the picture?
 
2) Did they brick over the windows = where the tower=20 used to be or were they glass?
 
3) Where is the door?
 
4) Are there any other else that stand = out I should=20 add to the model (outside stairs, signs, lights, ...)
 
Thanks again Bill. I'll post a picture = of the model=20 when its done so you can tell me how close I got.
 
Ron
 
----- Original Message -----
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C2D9BD.B20FA010-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:36:58 -0600 Hi! IMHO and 2¢ worth. Here in Texas, Fort Worth area, we used Homabed narrow roadbed, glued with Yellow Carpenters Glue (Elmer's) to spline roadbed, and NOT painted. HO scale. We never had any problem with moisture nor expansion, etc. And Texas is humid at times! Of course, when ballasted, we used the same glue. We found that the white glue became more brittle and was more prone to cracking. Seems the Yellow glue was ideal. Yes, the glue was diluted with some water and detergent for surfactant. If memory serves me correctly, it was maybe 10% water added and one or two drops of detergent. We used Ivory, and when I got my 2¢ in, tried Amway LOC with success too. Ivory and LOC do NOT contain any perfumes. We also used Franklins Wood Glue (it's yellow). Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill" To: "Jerry @ PRR" Cc: "Phil Paskos" ; "PRRlist" Sent: Friday, 21 February, 2003 00:27 Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote > "Jerry @ PRR" wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 09:18 PM, Phil Paskos wrote: > > > > > Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And > > > how > > > do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the > > > knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. > > > I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. > > > > Attach homasote to plywood with drywall screws, spaced irregularly. > > Paint exposed surface with regular wall paint. It seals the surface > > which prevents dust "flake off" over the years. > > > I'm going to disagree with Jerry on this. Regardless if you're going to > use Homasote in the narrow roadbed size or in full sheets, using screws > helps to transmit the vibration to the plywood base. It's best to use > something like Liquid Nails. > > I also recommend using an interior bathroom/kitchen paint to seal it as > it is designed to prevent moisture form entering the surface. If > you're placing the Homasote on a plywood base, then you only need to > seal the entire top, the sides and about 4 inches around the outside > perimeter of the bottom since that will be sealed to the plywood. > > BTW, the painting process is especially important in humid areas to > prevent swelling. > > Bill Morlitz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:27:07 -0500 Phil: Here are some suggestions to follow to make your roadbed -whatever kind you want to use, especially Homasote - work better and not warp. I used to use a homasote product that was milled to profile and cut partially across to make it flexible enough to curve. After installing the roadbed, take drywall compound on a narrow putty knife, same width as your roadbed surface, and go over the entire roadbed. This levels and fills in any gaps or holes, after all, dry wall compound is cheaper than ballast. When dry, lightly sand smooth with a flat sanding block. If you notice any low spots when sanding, more compound may be in order. This is a good time to check your roadbed shoulder profile too, especially on the viewing side. Check out any low spots very carefully to make sure the roadbed doesn't need reinstalling. After the compound dries, your roadbed should be almost perfectly level with no dips or spaces within your roadbed splices and connections. Paint it dark (or light) gray to match your ballast color, with latex wall paint. Overlap the roadbed color onto the table top about 1" on either side. This seals the roadbed and colors it so if you don't get a perfect coverage with your ballast, it won't be noticeable. After the latex paint dries, you can saturate the ballast to your heart's content and won't get any warpage. I use a very dark gray paint on top of flat Homasote sheets for yard areas, the dark paint matches the cinders. Works well with tan for mud, etc. Remember, you only get one EASY chance to make your roadbed and track perfect before all the scenery goes on. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Paskos" To: "PRRlist" Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way > I used homasote on my first N gauge layout many years ago. I decided to go > with it again when I started my HO layout several years ago. I'm sorry I > did. First of all, Homasote is not bendable the way cork is, but it will > warp. Boy will it warp. It's made out of a compressed paper substance. The > stuff will soak up water in unbelievable amounts.You'll find that out when > you go to ballast it. Put too much water in the wrong places and your track > will turn into a roller coaster. Cutting it leaves a huge amount of gray > dust flying all over the place. It does cut and shape easily. It is nice to > run on because of it's sound absorbing qualities. Driving spikes in is very > easy compared to wood and they hold better than you might think. Trying to > bevel it for roadbed will probably leave "fuzzy" edges which are > surprisingly difficult to clean up. If I ever build another layout I will > not use it again. > > All the above is just my opinion, and I'm sharing my experiences. Others > may love the stuff. > > Phil > > > Hi All! > > > > I changed this to just right of way because my comments do not have to be > > four track. > > > > Jerry said: > The advantage of using cork over posterboard (or something > > similar) is obvious: the cork can be curved vs. having to cut out > > posterboard. < > > > > I would ask: In HO, we could use homasote or whatever it's called that > is > > already like cork. ie curveable. Would this be feasible? In N or HO? > > > > Jerry also said: > The next issue is track spacing. For proper track > > spacing, you need to leave a small gap between the two halves of the HO > > cork. There will likewise need to be a small gap between the HO cork and > the > > N scale cork. Once the cork is in place, I suppose filling this crack > with a > > bead of caulk would be preferable to filling it with ballast. Then cover > the > > whole RoW with ballast once the track is installed. < > > > > This sounds extremely feasible, workable, and should present no problem > that > > I know of. > > > > Time for others with more experience to chime in! > > > > Morgan Bilbo > > Ferroequinologist > > PRRTHS #1204 and SPF > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:42:58 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR car names ? From: John Sheets Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? Andrew Carnegie Salmon P Chase Steubenville Inn Cyrus H McCormick Nathaniel Firestone Colonial Flags Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek Thanks! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Can Motors Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:47:19 -0500 Nick, et al: Does anyone know anything about the blister packed can motors that Radio Shack sells for $3.99? They are about 3/4 inch in dia. by 1 1/4" long and are rated at 12,000 RPM @ 12VDC no load, 1.3 Amps max load. They have one shaft about 1/16" dia. about 3/8 inch long. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Kulp" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 7:19 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Can Motors > Hi Paul, > > I think Alco Products made conversion kits for the K4, I1, and the H9 but the > motors they use are cheap three pole motors. You might try Mainline Hobby Supply > in Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. I know they carry them. > > I did a K4 a while back and the loco ran poorly after the remotoring job. The > loco ran smooth with the Pittman motor but drew heavy current. I finally decided > to make a motor mount out of brass stock and use a NWSL 36:1 gear set. Not an > easy conversion but better than the Alco conversion. > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > > From: "Paul R. Greenwald" > Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:03:21 GMT > > Re: > > Has anyone done a re-gear/re-motor of a Boswer H-9? > > Thanks, > > Paul Greenwald > paulrgreenwald@netzero.net > > > > Paul R. Greenwald, CPA > paulrgreenwald@comcast.net > paulrgreenwald@netzero.net > > > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:10:53 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Reefer Traffic... Guys, I know that a good friend of mine Jim Singer (of 5th Ave Car Shops) had released a reefer based on the IC's Bannana reefers and in his instruction sheet he gives a brief history of that traffic and one intersting note (and the decals for this were included in the kit) he memtions the traffic for the IC came off the IC and I believe interchanged in St Louis with the PRR and the cars were marked to return to PRR Indianapolis as well as (I believe) Ft. Wanye. He did extensive research on this traffic, perhaps we can get him to do a presentation in Cocoa Beach on the subject next year. He has put together several presentations base on "Wheel Reports" he had collected over the years and offered them both in Naperville and Cocoa Beach. Interesting stuff, especially when you see how many PRR cars were in these locals that he documents. He normally documents the locomotive, waycar, and every car in that local on that day in that train with slides of each. When he does it, it's a "must see" presentation. I know that my brother knew a gentleman that was a rate clerk for the NYC and he had mentioned that the tow BIG Eastern carriers didn't like perishable traffic and in fact the NYC got out of their Bannana traffic by setting out a string of cars and marking them "lost" until they were "REAL RIPE" and thus the consignee canceled the contract. I can sight at least two more instances where western carriers did similar things to get of a potato contract (ATSF) and the UP live Hog contract (with Farmer John). I have always heard perishables only lack one thing for the Railroads...PROFITS! Especially during the days of regulation. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:24:19 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? Off the top of my head, Andrew Carnegie - HW 14 section Salmon P Chase - HW 14 section Steubenville Inn - 21 roomette Cyrus H McCormick - one of the renamed 10-6s for the Pittsburger Nathaniel Firestone - I think you mean NICHOLAS FIRESTONE, a renamed 6br lounge for the Pittsburger Colonial Flags - Postwar 6 br lounge Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek - 12-4 duplex sleepers Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== John Sheets wrote: > Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? > > Andrew Carnegie > > Salmon P Chase > > Steubenville Inn > > Cyrus H McCormick > > Nathaniel Firestone > > Colonial Flags > > Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek > > Thanks! > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:37:36 -0500 Jeff: The amount of "waterproofing" you need to achieve is rather small in the wet scheme of things, so any latex paint will effectively do the job. Cheaper is better. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" Cc: "PRRlist" Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote > Guys: > > To seal homosote against water, isn't exterior (water proof) better than > interior? I'll second the mis-matched paint idea. > > Jeff > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:10:36 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? From: John Sheets Andy Thanks.... Were there additional renamed 10-6's ? Were these RAPIDS series originally John > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Organization: The MITRE Corporation > Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:24:19 -0500 > To: John Sheets > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? > > Off the top of my head, > > Andrew Carnegie - HW 14 section > > Salmon P Chase - HW 14 section > > Steubenville Inn - 21 roomette > > Cyrus H McCormick - one of the renamed 10-6s for the Pittsburger > > Nathaniel Firestone - I think you mean NICHOLAS FIRESTONE, a renamed 6br > lounge for the Pittsburger > > Colonial Flags - Postwar 6 br lounge > > Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek - 12-4 duplex sleepers > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > John Sheets wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? >> >> Andrew Carnegie >> >> Salmon P Chase >> >> Steubenville Inn >> >> Cyrus H McCormick >> >> Nathaniel Firestone >> >> Colonial Flags >> >> Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek >> >> Thanks! >> John >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:16:05 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? From: John Sheets Andy > Nathaniel Firestone - I think you mean NICHOLAS FIRESTONE, a renamed 6br > lounge for the Pittsburger You may be correct, I saw the car at Hollidaysburg Shop in the 70's with a white line thru the name. Was tough to read. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:35:19 -0000 A sneaky one, John! - They are not all lightweight cars! Andrew Carnegie, Salmon P Chase and Cyrus H McCormick - all plan 3958A, diagram 2, 14 section HW Steubenville Inn - #8284 PS21B built by Budd to plan 9513, diagram 289, dwg #9967-024. Colonial Flags - #8413 PS13L built by Pullman Standard to plan 4132 as part of lot 6792 delivered in 1949 Cabin Creek - #8361 PS124 built by Pullman Standard to plan 4130 as part of lot 6792 delivered in 1949 Cherry Creek - #8366 PS124 built by Pullman Standard to plan 4130 as part of lot 6792 delivered in 1949 "Nathaniel Firestone" - There were Nathanael Greene and Nathaniel Bacon - both plan 3410A, diagram 5, 12 section + 1 drawing room HW Nicholas Firestone was renamed from #8416 Colonial Doorways in 1956. PS13L built by Pullman Standard to plan 4132 as part of lot 6792 delivered in 1949 Regards, Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sheets To: PRR Talk Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:42 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR car names ? > Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? ...... > > Thanks! > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:43:05 -0000 John, The info I have shows the following: #8308 PS106A Iroquois Rapids - renamed Cyrus H. K. Curtis in 1950 PULL plan 4129 then: #8319 PS106 Raritan Rapids to Alexander M. Byers in 1956 PULL plan 4140 #8322 PS106 Shenango Rapids to Samuel M. Kier in '56 PULL plan 4140 #8323 PS106 Sherman Rapids to James O'Hara PULL plan 4140 #8328 PS106 Towanda Rapids to H.J.Heinz in '56 PULL plan 4140 #8329 PS106 Turtle Rapids to Henry W.Oliver in '56 PULL plan 4140 #8330 PS106 Tuscorora Rapids to James Park Jr. in '56 PULL plan 4140 #8362 PS124 Cedar Creek to August A.Busch in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8365 PS124 Chatham Creek to Hugh Henry Brackenridge in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8372 PS124 Cliff Creek to Charles Lockhart in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8373 PS124 Cloud Creek to Alfred E.Hunt in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8380 PS124 Conodoqulnet Creek to Benjamin Bakewell in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8381 PS124 Country Creek to Joseph Horne in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8384 PS124 Cypress Creek to Henry Clay Frick in '56 PULL plan 4130 #8405 PS6L Fir Falls to Charles Michael Schwab in '56 PULL plan 4131 #8407 PS6L Linden Falls to Henry Phipps in '56 PULL plan 4131 My info does not give a reason for the renaming. Regards, Martin S ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sheets To: Martin Skrzetuszewski Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:53 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? > Martin > > Understand there were a number of re-names, are these the cars for the > Pittsburgher ? > > Do you know of the others, particularly 10-6 sleepers? > > Thanks > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:50:06 -0000 John, #8323 is also shown as renamed in '56. Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Skrzetuszewski To: John Sheets Cc: PRR-Talk Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? >.........#8323 PS106 Sherman Rapids to James O'Hara PULL plan 4140 ....... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR car names ? Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:45:33 -0500 Look at http://PRR.Railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_SL_Rapids.htm to see the renamed 10-6 cars. Garry -----Original Message----- From: John Sheets [SMTP:john@mpa-inc.com] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 7:11 PM To: Andrew S. Miller Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? Andy Thanks.... Were there additional renamed 10-6's ? Were these RAPIDS series originally John > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Organization: The MITRE Corporation > Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:24:19 -0500 > To: John Sheets > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? > > Off the top of my head, > > Andrew Carnegie - HW 14 section > > Salmon P Chase - HW 14 section > > Steubenville Inn - 21 roomette > > Cyrus H McCormick - one of the renamed 10-6s for the Pittsburger > > Nathaniel Firestone - I think you mean NICHOLAS FIRESTONE, a renamed 6br > lounge for the Pittsburger > > Colonial Flags - Postwar 6 br lounge > > Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek - 12-4 duplex sleepers > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > John Sheets wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? >> >> Andrew Carnegie >> >> Salmon P Chase >> >> Steubenville Inn >> >> Cyrus H McCormick >> >> Nathaniel Firestone >> >> Colonial Flags >> >> Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek >> >> Thanks! >> John >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Evans" Subject: [PRR] Profile of Four Track Right-of-Way Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:59:35 -0800 Jerry, Why not use N-scale cork for all tracks? In N-scale, you should be able to use several of layers of masking tape on top of the N-scale cork roadbed under the two center tracks to raise them slightly in comparison to the outside mains. All tracks would be laid on the same thickness of cork. Similarly, use several layers of narrow masking tape (stacked one upon the other) under the outside rail of a curve to provide superelevation. Runoff of the superelevation in spirals, and "feathering" the center tracks down to level with the outside tracks at an interlocking, can be accomplished by staggering the overlaps of the masking tape layers over an appropriate distance. Bonded ballast will hold the track in its final alignment. I know that this works pretty well in HO scale; it should work great in N. I just performed a quick test: four layers of typical masking tape came out to about .020, which is about 3.2 inches in N-scale. What do you think? Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 5:43 AM To: prr-er@dsop.com; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Profile of Four Track Right-of-Way Just sharing this for those modeling in N scale... On the PRR's four track mains, the middle two tracks were typically elevated slightly over the outer two. If you do the math, representing this in N scale would seem almost negligible. However, for demonstration sake, I mocked up a section using HO scale cork for the center two tracks and N scale cork for the outer two tracks. The result was impressive. The difference amounted to just about the height of the rail, which actually is pretty close to prototype. I was surprised, and pleased. The advantage of using cork over posterboard (or something similar) is obvious: the cork can be curved vs. having to cut out posterboard. The next issue is track spacing. For proper track spacing, you need to leave a small gap between the two halves of the HO cork. There will likewise need to be a small gap between the HO cork and the N scale cork. Once the cork is in place, I suppose filling this crack with a bead of caulk would be preferable to filling it with ballast. Then cover the whole RoW with ballast once the track is installed. Finally, it will be required to feather the center two tracks down to the height of the N scale cork when you enter an interlocking. I'm thinking joint compound over about six inches of run. Haven't tried it yet. Super elevation on curves would be extremely tedious. To be visible in N scale it would have to be exaggerated. I haven't mocked it up yet, but I am thinking of just super elevating the entire RoW, so the outside of the RoW would be slightly higher than the front. This would provide the visual effect of trains "leaning into the curve" without the tedium of doing it on a "per track" basis. With the center tracks already elevated, I don't think this "cheat" will be as obvious. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:31:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? In a message dated 2/21/03 7:48:32 PM Central Standard Time, martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net writes: << My info does not give a reason for the renaming. >> They were renamed for the Pittsburgher because they are all movers and shakers in the steel industry, AFIK. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Ugggh! I Hate When They Do That! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:31:52 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 21 Feb, Jerry Britton wrote: > 1) Only three cat wires over four tracks. Umm, Jerry, the far overhead just grazes the water tanks on the horizon and disappears behind the G's marker light. I can't say I care much for the painting anyway. He failed to match the rolling stock or the cat towers to curve of the track. Notice how the second track looks like bigger rail than the closest one? Is that for real, or is it botched perspective? I could understand things like this happening, but this looks extreme. Even disregarding all the other commentary, that painting would just plain bug me every time I saw it. Feh. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:17:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote --part1_f8.295bdcdc.2b8853bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Bill here. I used Homasoate on my layout also, and knowing the problems with swelling, I took precautions. I first glued the homasoate to the plywood, but spread the glue thoroughly on the plywood surface before laying down the homasoate. Not only does it attach the homasoate to the plywood, but spreading the glue evenly over the plywood also seals the underside of the homasoate once it is down and dried. I then used the drywall screws, but only to hold the homasoate in place until the glue dries (about 24 hours), then I remove the screws as they are no longer needed, and as Bill mentioned, they will transmit the noise to the plywood if you leave them in. Then I generously paint all of the homasoate to seal the top and sides. I use standard latex house paint, and I use black as a base color for future scenery. Finally, one other recommendation as far as noise goes. About halfway through building my layout, I decided to try using the Woodland Scenices foam roadbed instead of cork. Best move I ever made! It has the same profile as the cork, but it a lot easier to work with too. But best part is that it is also quieter! I notice a big difference when trains run from an area with cork to an area with the foam roadbed. I glue the foam roadbed to the sub-roadbed, then I glue the track to the foam roadbed. I'll never use cork again. Mark In a message dated 2/21/03 1:29:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, prrbill@op.net writes: > > > Maybe I learned something here tonight. What do you paint it with? And > > > how > > > do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used the > > > knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them. > > > I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowadays. > > > > Attach homasote to plywood with drywall screws, spaced irregularly. > > Paint exposed surface with regular wall paint. It seals the surface > > which prevents dust "flake off" over the years. > > > I'm going to disagree with Jerry on this. Regardless if you're going to > use Homasote in the narrow roadbed size or in full sheets, using screws > helps to transmit the vibration to the plywood base. It's best to use > something like Liquid Nails. > > I also recommend using an interior bathroom/kitchen paint to seal it as > it is designed to prevent moisture form entering the surface. If > you're placing the Homasote on a plywood base, then you only need to > seal the entire top, the sides and about 4 inches around the outside > perimeter of the bottom since that will be sealed to the plywood. > > BTW, the painting process is especially important in humid areas to > prevent swelling. > > Bill Morlitz > --part1_f8.295bdcdc.2b8853bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Bill here.  I used Homasoate on my l= ayout also, and knowing the problems with swelling, I took precautions. = ; I first glued the homasoate to the plywood, but spread the glue thoroughly= on the plywood surface before laying down the homasoate.  Not only doe= s it attach the homasoate to the plywood, but spreading the glue evenly over= the plywood also seals the underside of the homasoate once it is down and d= ried.  I then used the drywall screws, but only to hold the homasoate i= n place until the glue dries (about 24 hours), then I remove the screws as t= hey are no longer needed, and as Bill mentioned, they will transmit the nois= e to the plywood if you leave them in.  Then I generously paint all of=20= the homasoate to seal the top and sides.  I use standard latex house pa= int, and I use black as a base color for future scenery.

Finally, one other recommendation as far as noise goes.  About halfway=20= through building my layout, I decided to try using the Woodland Scenices foa= m roadbed instead of cork.  Best move I ever made!  It has the sam= e profile as the cork, but it a lot easier to work with too.  But best=20= part is that it is also quieter!  I notice a big difference when trains= run from an area with cork to an area with the foam roadbed.  I glue t= he foam roadbed to the sub-roadbed, then I glue the track to the foam roadbe= d. I'll never use cork again.

Mark

In a message dated 2/21/03 1:29:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, prrbill@op.net=20= writes:


> > Maybe I learned somet= hing here tonight. What do you paint it with? And
> > how
> > do you bond it to the plywood? Nails, screws, or glue?I never used= the
> > knife blades in the saber saw, but I will try them.
> > I thought most people were using foam board over the plywood nowad= ays.
>
> Attach homasote to plywood with drywall screws, spaced irregularly.
> Paint exposed surface with regular wall paint. It seals the surface
> which prevents dust "flake off" over the years.


I'm going to disagree with Jerry on this.  Regardless if you're going t= o
use Homasote in the narrow roadbed size or in full sheets, using screws
helps to transmit the vibration to the plywood base.  It's best to use<= BR> something like Liquid Nails. 

I also recommend using an interior bathroom/kitchen paint to seal it as
it is designed to prevent moisture form entering the surface.   If=
you're placing the Homasote on a plywood base, then you only need to
seal the entire top, the sides and about 4 inches around the outside
perimeter of the bottom since that will be sealed to the plywood.

BTW, the painting process is especially important in humid areas to
prevent swelling.

Bill Morlitz


 --part1_f8.295bdcdc.2b8853bd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Honner" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Scenery Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 19:09:34 +1100 Hi, I'm trying to nail down a prototype PRR location for a medium size HO layout. I have a love of bridgework and industrial architecture. I have read the guidance on the Keystone Crossings (KC) web site (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/protolocales.html) and I am after some photos of certain areas to help me decide on location: (1) Elmira branch, particularly any photos of the bridges mentioned on the KC website; (2) Spruce Creek tunnels and stone bridges; (3) Atglen & Susquehanna Branch bridges; (4) Any typical Pennsy looking tunnels or bridges - see next paragraph. I am also sometimes tempted to build a fictitious layout along the lines of John Armstrong's Schuylkill Division layout in his book Creative Model Railroad Design. "Four tracks disappear into three portals in high fill supporting three upper level tracks - pure Pennsy!" he writes. However, although I have a few books I've never seen a Pennsy flyover that looks quite like this. Admittedly most of my PRR books are Lines West, so maybe I'm looking in the wrong area. I have Pennsy Power I and III, plus "Pennsy in the Steel City" and "Golden Triangle", so I'm after any photos on the web that aren't in those books. Thanks, David Honner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Scenery Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:41:50 -0500 Dave: I appreciate the angst in your search for creative expression. I gave up being a rivet counter a long time ago because it created too much frustration, like the frustration you are experiencing now. My solution was to be a "generic" modeler, i.e. model a few specific PRR goodies in perfect scale, to satisfy that creative need, and place them on a fictitious setting with fictitious surroundings that "could-have-been". I have never had the time, the money or the space to build "correctly". I have to thank my then 13 year old son Shawn and his buddy, Chris, 12 at the time, for showing me the light. (Shawn liked ATSF and Chris was a Great Northern and BN fan.) The three of us built a portable train layout (of which I still have parts stored in the barn ) on a fictitious line called the Safe Harbor and West Nottingham RR or S.H.A.W.N. RR. This shortline connecting RR, approximately located where the Chester cut off is, became the hub of a could-have-been railroad empire that included significant ownership in the PRR, Reading and B&O. The could-have-been possibilities for model construction are limitless. The boys incorporated their favorite Lancaster County railroad scenes in this layout. Safe Harbor dam and trestles, the coal wash, the overhead sluices along the Susquehanna, many bridges over small streams, Water street as a city switching area etc. Once you break with "this" reality, you can create a plausible reality complete with history, geology etc to back up that alternate reality. The kids and I had a blast developing an entire history, science, geography etc for this SHAWN RR and its subsidiaries. (Can you believe I had these kids at the library for days on end rewriting the history and economics of Lancaster County? They learned more history, economics, geography, map reading, drafting etc. on this project than was taught to them in 12 years of school. They had to know what was before they created what could-have-been) My railroad, the Conestoga Valley RR. follows PRR in its operations, structures, rolling stock and motive power, except for one large exception. I have a penchant for could-have-been locomotives, so I build what Pennsy may have had but letter it for the CV. (That keeps me out of trouble with the chat list) Our faith in the direction we were going with the fictitious system we developed for modeling was reinforced by the appearance and acceptability of Allen McClelland's railroad by the model press. He had created an empire doing what we were doing on a very small scale on a portable layout and my small home layout. To get back to the original thread, your dilemma: I would suggest the area around Lancaster, PA as offing a variety of modeling devices. The Susquehanna and its rugged hills, valleys, and streams are loaded with railroad scenery and operational potential; the rolling hills of the rest of the county are less rugged, but still offer great visual and operational excitement; the city and environs offer switching potential and some unique scenery; the interchange with the Reading is great fun and definitely good operation; the yards at Columbia and its tunnel; the through passenger, mail and express on the mainline; electric, steam and diesel operation, and on and on. This area's got it all. You can configure it anyway you want if you change reality to match your available space, your modeling interests, your pocket book and your available time. There are some other interesting things to consider in Lancaster, the Strasburg RR and the Lancaster, Oxford and Southern RR and the Quarryville and Peach Bottom RR. Change their history around a little, and you have some good raw ingredients to mix with PRR. Good Luck. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Honner" To: Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:09 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Scenery > Hi, > > I'm trying to nail down a prototype PRR location for a medium size HO > layout. I have a love of bridgework and industrial architecture. I have read > the guidance on the Keystone Crossings (KC) web site > (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/protolocales.html) and I am after some photos > of certain areas to help me decide on location: > > (1) Elmira branch, particularly any photos of the bridges mentioned on the > KC website; > (2) Spruce Creek tunnels and stone bridges; > (3) Atglen & Susquehanna Branch bridges; > (4) Any typical Pennsy looking tunnels or bridges - see next paragraph. > > I am also sometimes tempted to build a fictitious layout along the lines > of John Armstrong's Schuylkill Division layout in his book Creative Model > Railroad Design. "Four tracks disappear into three portals in high fill > supporting three upper level tracks - pure Pennsy!" he writes. However, > although I have a few books I've never seen a Pennsy flyover that looks > quite like this. Admittedly most of my PRR books are Lines West, so maybe > I'm looking in the wrong area. > > I have Pennsy Power I and III, plus "Pennsy in the Steel City" and "Golden > Triangle", so I'm after any photos on the web that aren't in those books. > Thanks, > > David Honner > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:03:06 -0500 From: Jerry Colman Subject: [PRR] Sunshine Decals Can anyone tell me where I can buy a couple of "Chalk-Marking" decal sets from Sunshine. My searches on the web and in magazines couldn't find a distributor for Sunshine kits or their decals. Thanks, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunshine Decals Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:28:11 -0500 Jerry Colman asked: Can anyone tell me where I can buy a couple of "Chalk-Marking" decal sets from Sunshine. My searches on the web and in magazines couldn't find a distributor for Sunshine kits or their decals. Order the decals directly from Sunshine (he has no e-mail or website) at: Sunshine Models Box 4997 Springfield MO 65805-4997 The chalk marking decal sets are $4 each, and decals are postpaid to US, $1.00 to Canada. The markings are taken from freight car photos, printed in soft gray, and contain approximately 70 per set. Here's a list of what's available: E.2 ATSF Boxcars E.3 SP Boxcars E.4 Howe Truss Boxcars E.5 40' Auto Cars E.6 Southeastern Roads E.7 Midwestern Roads E.8 Northeastern Roads E.10 MILW Rib Box E.11 1932 ARA Boxcar E.12 Produce Reefers E.13 PRR E.14 Meat Reefers E.15 Upper Midwest E.16 SS Boxcars E.17 Washington DC, 1947-48 E.18 SS Auto Boxcars E.19 Yellow Chalkmarks E.20 Pacific Northwest E.21 Southwestern E.22 Stock Cars E.23 Covered Hoppers E.24 Coal Hoppers E.25 Gondolas Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] model K4s From: "Robert" Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:48:13 -0500 (EST) Fellow PRR fans: I have 2 different K4s models, one Bachmann, one Bowser. I am interested in repowering them both. I currently have a small (18" radius) DC layout, but may eventually expand and convert to DCC. My questions are these: what have people's experiences been with the Bowser repower kit for the Bachmann? What about the Alliance Helix Humper repower for the Bowser? I read through the archived messages from a couple of years back (a nice feature, I may add) and the general consensus was to repower the Bachmann with the Bowser repower kit, then repower the repower kit. I am just curious to see if anyone has used these products with what results. I was quite sold on the idea of using the Helix Humper, until a recent post stated dissatisfaction with the motors (3 pole vice 5 pole... is this important?). Sincerely, R.R. Poggio Virginia Beach _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:56:49 -0500 Hi all, Does anyone have a source for the knife blade Saber saw blades that Jerry mentioned but with the Bosch type blade shaft? This is a blade type that has a "t" type shaft end for attaching to the saw. Local Sears, Home Depot and Lowes only seem to carry the straight blade types. I'm getting ready to start construction on my Sunbury, PA ( PRR and RDG) based railroad and would like to try the knife edge approach to cutting homosote. Thanks for your help. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:17:38 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? John, Andrew Carnegie 8981 PS 14 3958A 6376 Pullman PRR Std.; Streamline colors (5/23/38); MDD4973H (4/28/54) 20029 New 2411 Sold To PRR LTP 13-Aug-62 1x16; 2x8 (4/20/34); Streamline front (1/4/40) 4T; 4T Folding (1/4/40) 2 pt Ice 20-Apr-34 Steel plates EL; Streamline skirting (1/4/40); Remod. 8" Skirting (4/30/47) UC 1x18; UC 2x16 (1/4/40) Salmon P. Chase 8992 PS 14 3958A 6357 Pullman PRR Std.; Streamline colors (nd) New 2411 Sold To PRR LTP 2x8; 1x16 (nd); 2x8 Streamline front (nd) 4T; 4T Folding (nd) Ice Steel plates EL; Skirting applied (nd) UC 1x18; UC 2x16 (nd) Steubenville Inn 8284 PS 21b 9513 9667 Budd PRR Red; CED5062 (nd) 21445 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 2x24 & 1x9 4T Folding EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR 4x12 Cyrus H. McCormick 8984 PS 14 3958A 6357 Pullman PRR Std.; Streamline colors MDD4973E 6/6/38); MDD4973G (12/18/39) 11059 New 2411; 2411A (9/30/52) Sold To PRR LTP 01-Jun-62 2x8; 1x16 (3/23/34); 2x8 Streamline front (12/18/39) 4T; 4T Folding (12/18/39) Ice 23-Mar-34 Steel plates EL; Skirting applied (12/18/39) UC 1x18; UC 2x16 (12/18/39) Colonial Doorways; Nicholas Firestone (8/18/55) 8416 PS 13L 4132 6792 Pullman PRR Streamline colors; CED5062 (nd); CED5062D (8/18/55) 18059 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 13-May-64 3x19 4T Folding 2 pt EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR Renumbered (1964) to 7153 Colonial Flags 8413 PS 13L 4132 6792 Pullman PRR Streamline colors; CED5062D (6/2/54) 18051 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 13-May-64 3x19 4T Folding EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR Renumbered (1964) to 7150 Cabin Creek 8361 PS 12-4 4130 6792 Pullman PRR Streamline colors; CED5062D (nd); CED5062F (11/24/53) 39708 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 01-Jul-68 3x19 4T Folding EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR Cherry Creek 8366 PS 12-4 4130 6792 Pullman PRR Streamline colors; CED5062B (nd); CED5062F (nd) 46282 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 01-Jul-68 3x19 4T Folding EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO John Sheets wrote: > Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? > > Andrew Carnegie > > Salmon P Chase > > Steubenville Inn > > Cyrus H McCormick > > Nathaniel Firestone > > Colonial Flags > > Cabin Creek or Cherry Creek > > Thanks! > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:12:42 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Ties on the Right of Way --0-211653077-1045951962=:75296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One of the more bizarre railroad related things that I saw back in the sixties was the result of walking part of the abandoned secondary from Langeloth to Studa, PA. What was interesting here was that all the ties had been pulled and removed, but the rails, unspiked from the ties, had been left!!! Now, this wasn't because it was a work in progress---the line had been left in that condition for one only knows how long. The only thing I could figure is one of two things--(a) the price of scrap steel didn't warrant picking up the rails at that time, or more likely, (b) the ties had not been removed by the railroad, but by some unauthorized person(s) who didn't have the correct permits that you need to sell scrap rail to a scrap yard. This was in an isolated enough area that one could have gotten away with illegal removal. In any case, ultimately years later, all the metal was picked up. When they removed the single track that was left of the once proud triple track Panhandle main line outside my house in 1995 I talked with some of the workers concerning what was going to happen to the materiel. They had placed everything in separate piles along the right of way, spikes here, tie plates there, rail joiners in another place, the piles repeating themselves down the track. They told me that there was a count for each of the items as to how many equalled a ton. I understand that the rail that was removed was reused elsewhere to replace badly worn rail in some yard. Ron ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-211653077-1045951962=:75296 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

One of the more bizarre railroad related things that I saw back in the sixties was the result of walking part of the abandoned secondary from Langeloth to Studa, PA.  What was interesting here was that all the ties had been pulled and removed, but the rails, unspiked from the ties, had been left!!!  Now, this wasn't because it was a work in progress---the line had been left in that condition for one only knows how long.  The only thing I could figure is one of two things--(a) the price of scrap steel didn't warrant picking up the rails at that time, or more likely, (b)  the ties had not been removed by the railroad, but by some unauthorized person(s) who didn't have the correct permits that you need to sell scrap rail to a scrap yard.  This was in an isolated enough area that one could have gotten away with illegal removal. In any case, ultimately years later, all the metal was picked up.

When they removed the single track that was left of the once proud triple track  Panhandle main line outside my house in 1995 I talked with some of the workers concerning what was going to happen to the materiel.  They had placed everything in separate piles along the right of way, spikes here, tie plates there, rail joiners in another place, the piles repeating themselves down the track.  They told me that there was a count for each of the items as to how many equalled a ton.  I understand that the rail that was removed was reused elsewhere to replace badly worn rail in some yard.  Ron


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --0-211653077-1045951962=:75296-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:40:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car names ? --part1_1eb.2a03af8.2b895666_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/21/2003 5:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, john@mpa-inc.com writes: > Can anyone tell me the config/class/builder of these PRR lightweights? > > Andrew Carnegie PS plan 3958A 14 section this is a heavy weight > car > > Salmon P Chase PS plan 3958A 14 section this is a heavy weight car > > Steubenville Inn PS plan 9513 21 roomette > > Cyrus H McCormick PS plan 3958A 14 section this is a heavy weight car > > Nathaniel Firestone originally Colonial Doorways renamed Firestone 8/55 PS > plan 4132 8-3-1 bar lounge > > Colonial Flags PS plan 4132 8-3-1 bar lounge > Rich Orr --part1_1eb.2a03af8.2b895666_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/21/2003 5:48:23 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, john@mpa-inc.com writes:


Can anyone tell me the config/c= lass/builder of these PRR lightweights?

Andrew Carnegie         PS plan 3958= A 14 section  this is a heavy weight car

Salmon P Chase         PS plan 3958A= 14 section  this is a heavy weight car

Steubenville Inn          = PS plan 9513 21 roomette

Cyrus H McCormick    PS plan 3958A 14 section this is a heavy= weight car

Nathaniel Firestone  originally Colonial Doorways renamed Firestone 8/5= 5 PS  plan 4132   8-3-1 bar lounge

Colonial Flags       PS plan 4132  8-3-1=20= bar lounge


Rich Orr

 --part1_1eb.2a03af8.2b895666_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunshine Decals (chalk decals) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:32:57 -0500 Friends: Before you spend a lot of money putting "chalk mark" decals on your cars, get a white pencil from an art store for about $.90, sharpen it to a fine point and just scribble all over your cars, but in miniature. Makes great graffiti! Use it to make "white line" equipment, too. I've been using the same pencil for 30 years and its not even half used. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Colman" To: Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: [PRR] Sunshine Decals > Can anyone tell me where I can buy a couple of "Chalk-Marking" decal sets > from Sunshine. My searches on the web and in magazines couldn't find a > distributor for Sunshine kits or their decals. > > Thanks, > Jerry Colman > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:36:34 -0500 Bud: Take any old blade and grind it down to a knife edge. Don't let the steel get hot and keep the edge straight with a tapered bevel. The resulting knife edge will cut very well and it is cheap. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bud Kaiser" To: "PRRlist" Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Profile of Right-of-Way/Homasote > Hi all, > > Does anyone have a source for the knife blade Saber saw blades that Jerry > mentioned but with the Bosch type blade shaft? This is a blade type that > has a "t" type shaft end for attaching to the saw. Local Sears, Home Depot > and Lowes only seem to carry the straight blade types. I'm getting ready to > start construction on my Sunbury, PA ( PRR and RDG) based railroad and would > like to try the knife edge approach to cutting homosote. > > Thanks for your help. > > Bud > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 19:26:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Ties on the Right of Way In a message dated 2/22/03 4:21:01 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << One of the more bizarre railroad related things that I saw back in the sixties was the result of walking part of the abandoned secondary from Langeloth to Studa, PA. What was interesting here was that all the ties had been pulled and removed, but the rails, unspiked from the ties, had been left!!! Now, this wasn't because it was a work in progress---the line had been left in that condition for one only knows how long. The only thing I could figure is one of two things--(a) the price of scrap steel didn't warrant picking up the rails at that time, or more likely, (b) the ties had not been removed by the railroad, but by some unauthorized person(s) who didn't have the correct permits that you need to sell scrap rail to a scrap yard. This was in an isolated enough area that one could have gotten away with illegal removal. In any case, ultimately years later, all the metal was picked up. >> ******************** The return from taking up track wasn't only the scrap value of the rail. The ROW way paid property taxes to a variety of local entities. The maximum rate payable was for ROW as a functioning rail line. There was some specific downgrade that allowed the Pennsy tax folks to go into a local [school] district and petition for a lower rate because the ROW was no longer a functioning rail line. The tax consideration was an expense reduction, the sale of scrap, a revenue consideration. The two did not have to happen at the same time. There must be some subscribers here who have served on tax authority boards who can provide some detail. BTW, when I lived in Northern Virginia, working for an airline, I would go over to the RF&P Potomac Yard and pick up free rail ties and tie sections. I had to stop at the yardmaster's office and sign a release for the RF&P if I got hurt jackassing the ties around. I'd drive over to these mountains of ties that had been recovered and piled in Pot Yard, and cull what I wanted. They were wonderful for landscaping and building stairs in a hillside and the price was right. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] St Louis Trip -off topic (however there is a Pennsy Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:39:56 -0500 Just wanted to say thank you to all those who offered ideas on my trip to St. Louis I had a nice time visiting the city and the conference was very interesting. I did get to Union Station and it was nice to see they had some RR related displays and plaques throughout the mall. I went to the Arch on Monday and say the view from the top, A very good train watching place from what I could see. Then I went and watched the movie "A Monument to the Dream" that describes the building of the Arch. Being a Civil Engineer I found it very interesting. I didn't realize that the Arch panels were sandwich's of Carbon steel and stainless steel and that they were fabricated in Pittsburgh Pa and shipped over the Pennsy to St Louis. They showed sections in PRR Gons and 3 GP9's pulling a train loaded with the sections to the site. So anyone modeling the Pennsy Panhandle in 1963 -1964 timeframe should include a load or two. For those interested the video was available in the gift shop at the Arch for $19.99. Thanks again. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Fwd: HIGHLINER HELP Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:32:25 -0500 >From: "mark taylor" >To: >Subject: HIGHLINER HELP >Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:43:31 -0500 > >I am trying to install the window glass into a couple of Athearn Genesis >F-7's. I am not having very much luck in getting the results that I am >looking for. I've tried CA glue ( medium and thin ), that clouded the >glass, and a Window glue offered by Micro Mark ,that has a thick base and >left a small glue ring visible around the edges.What am I doing wrong? Can >anyone steer me in the right direction . MARK _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:01:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Walthers PRR R50b Express Reefer --part1_12e.23c923c4.2b8a749b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Al, Eric and all, Yes, I saw the review(s) that have come in so far of the R50B. Here's a couple of comments or let's say observations, from Eric's post: >The typical Walther's Window Box is Not a good choice for this model...< And this is another reason that I hate preassembled kits. Just please offer me a kit along with your RTR line. I am a modeler, that is what I like to do and will always make time for. >The Lettering looks slightly Faded and at first looks Bronze Gold, Closer inspection shows a somewhat faded Dulux.< The color was never intended to look Dulux (Gold) ... the color per the PRR spec.'s is "Buff PRR Shade" which in no way appears the same as Dulux until after 1963 when Dulux was introduced to the PRR on their diesel numerals. Buff was a mixture of Chrome Yellow, White and Indian Red in PRR terms the exact proportions is the mystery. To the PRR modeler can you say FLOQUIL Depot Buff? Jeeze, we Pennsy guys still see the world as flat ... so we have been told. >I don't understand why Walther's left off the Car Numbers on the Car Ends ?< They weren't left off they were never applied thank heavens. There were not required on passenger equipment. >The Side Ladders are painted the Body color. As far as I know they should be Black. I am sure this was a Budget reason.< Bob Johnson and I went over the safety appliances with Walthers several times and regardless as to what the spec.'s read we couldn't justify all that was written and if I am not mistaken it says black but we could not find any photos to support that at all, but we did find body color, this was also the case with the diagonal braces that support the roof walk, says black always body color. >Overall I give the Model a "B." It would probably be better in My Opinion to Buy the un-Painted cars and Paint and Letter them (Champ Decals) yourself. But until we here (hear) from Martin on his, this is really not a bad choice.< In lite of the things have been listed as short comings I would hope that you all might reconsider the early assessment of the kit and more forward and buy with confidence. I believe at some point Walthers will offer them in undecorated, but I would think you would be hard pressed to do better. So far as Martin doing the kit, unless he plans to do a truck, Walthers is going to release these truck after 2004, unless they decide to go forward with the B60b as considered and then it will be longer. So the truck becomes a problem. The credit for this projects complete accuracy and authenticity is primarily do to the extensive research so gratefully weathered by Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS and his access to the extensive files of which he seem to be the "key keeper." Thanks again, Bob Johnson it was fun working with you on this one. Greg Martin --part1_12e.23c923c4.2b8a749b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Al, Eric and all,

Yes, I saw the review(s) that have come in so far of the R50B.

Here's a couple of comments or let's say observations, from Eric's post:

>The typical Walther's Wi= ndow Box is Not a good choice for this model...<

And this is another rea= son that I hate preassembled kits. Just please offer me a kit along with you= r RTR line. I am a modeler, that is what I like to do and will always make t= ime for.

>The Lettering looks slightly Faded and at first looks Bronze Gold, Close= r inspection shows a somewhat faded Dulux.<

The color was never int= ended to look Dulux (Gold) ... the color per the PRR spec.'s is "Buff PRR Sh= ade" which in no way appears the same as Dulux until after 1963 when Dulux w= as introduced to the PRR on their diesel numerals. Buff was a mixture of Chr= ome Yellow, White and Indian Red in PRR terms the exact proportions is the m= ystery. To the PRR modeler can you say FLOQUIL Depot Buff?  Jeeze, we P= ennsy guys still see the world as flat ... so we have been told. 

>I don't understand why Walther's left off the Car Numbers on the Car End= s ?<

They weren't left off t= hey were never applied thank heavens. There were not required on passenger e= quipment.

>The Side Ladders are painted the Body color. As far as I know they shoul= d be Black. I am sure this was a Budget reason.<

Bob Johnson and I went=20= over the safety appliances with Walthers several times and regardless as to=20= what the spec.'s read we couldn't justify all that was written and if I am n= ot mistaken it says black but we could not find any photos to support that a= t all, but we did find body color, this was also the case with the diagonal=20= braces that support the roof walk, says black always body color.

>Overall I give the Model a "B." It would probably be better in My Opinio= n to Buy the un-Painted cars and Paint and Letter them (Champ Decals) yourse= lf. But until we here (hear) from Martin on his, this is really not a bad ch= oice.<

In lite of the things h= ave been listed as short comings I would hope that you all might reconsider=20= the early assessment of the kit and more forward and buy with confidence. I=20= believe at some point Walthers will offer them in undecorated, but I would t= hink you would be hard pressed to do better. So far as Martin doing the kit,= unless he plans to do a truck, Walthers is going to release these truck aft= er 2004, unless they decide to go forward with the B60b as considered and th= en it will be longer. So the truck becomes a problem.

The credit for this pro= jects complete accuracy and authenticity is primarily do to the extensive re= search so gratefully weathered by Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS and his acc= ess to the extensive files of which he seem to be the "key keeper."  Th= anks again, Bob Johnson it was fun working with you on this one.

Greg Martin




--part1_12e.23c923c4.2b8a749b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Walthers PRR R50b Express Reefer Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:10:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C2DB45.5B2DCDB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, Walthers does have them in undec. kits. Saw two yesterday. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com=20 Cc: abbuchan1@comcast.net ; bobjohnson@alltel.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 2:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Walthers PRR R50b Express Reefer Hi Al, Eric and all, Yes, I saw the review(s) that have come in so far of the R50B. Here's a couple of comments or let's say observations, from Eric's = post: >The typical Walther's Window Box is Not a good choice for this = model...< And this is another reason that I hate preassembled kits. Just please = offer me a kit along with your RTR line. I am a modeler, that is what I = like to do and will always make time for. >The Lettering looks slightly Faded and at first looks Bronze Gold, = Closer inspection shows a somewhat faded Dulux.< The color was never intended to look Dulux (Gold) ... the color per = the PRR spec.'s is "Buff PRR Shade" which in no way appears the same as = Dulux until after 1963 when Dulux was introduced to the PRR on their = diesel numerals. Buff was a mixture of Chrome Yellow, White and Indian = Red in PRR terms the exact proportions is the mystery. To the PRR = modeler can you say FLOQUIL Depot Buff? Jeeze, we Pennsy guys still see = the world as flat ... so we have been told. =20 >I don't understand why Walther's left off the Car Numbers on the Car = Ends ?< They weren't left off they were never applied thank heavens. There = were not required on passenger equipment.=20 >The Side Ladders are painted the Body color. As far as I know they = should be Black. I am sure this was a Budget reason.< Bob Johnson and I went over the safety appliances with Walthers = several times and regardless as to what the spec.'s read we couldn't = justify all that was written and if I am not mistaken it says black but = we could not find any photos to support that at all, but we did find = body color, this was also the case with the diagonal braces that support = the roof walk, says black always body color.=20 >Overall I give the Model a "B." It would probably be better in My = Opinion to Buy the un-Painted cars and Paint and Letter them (Champ = Decals) yourself. But until we here (hear) from Martin on his, this is = really not a bad choice.< In lite of the things have been listed as short comings I would hope = that you all might reconsider the early assessment of the kit and more = forward and buy with confidence. I believe at some point Walthers will = offer them in undecorated, but I would think you would be hard pressed = to do better. So far as Martin doing the kit, unless he plans to do a = truck, Walthers is going to release these truck after 2004, unless they = decide to go forward with the B60b as considered and then it will be = longer. So the truck becomes a problem.=20 The credit for this projects complete accuracy and authenticity is = primarily do to the extensive research so gratefully weathered by Bob = Johnson of the PRRT&HS and his access to the extensive files of which he = seem to be the "key keeper." Thanks again, Bob Johnson it was fun = working with you on this one. Greg Martin=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C2DB45.5B2DCDB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guys,
 
Walthers does have them in undec. = kits.  Saw=20 two yesterday.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Cc: abbuchan1@comcast.net ; bobjohnson@alltel.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 = 2:01=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] = Walthers PRR=20 R50b Express Reefer

Hi Al, Eric and all,

Yes, I saw the = review(s)=20 that have come in so far of the R50B.

Here's a couple of = comments or=20 let's say observations, from Eric's post:

>The typical Walther's Window Box is Not a good = choice for=20 this model...<

And = this is another=20 reason that I hate preassembled kits. Just please offer me a kit along = with=20 your RTR line. I am a modeler, that is what I like to do and will = always make=20 time for.

>The Lettering = looks slightly=20 Faded and at first looks Bronze Gold, Closer inspection shows a = somewhat faded=20 Dulux.<

The = color was never=20 intended to look Dulux (Gold) ... the color per the PRR spec.'s is = "Buff PRR=20 Shade" which in no way appears the same as Dulux until after 1963 when = Dulux=20 was introduced to the PRR on their diesel numerals. Buff was a mixture = of=20 Chrome Yellow, White and Indian Red in PRR terms the exact proportions = is the=20 mystery. To the PRR modeler can you say FLOQUIL Depot Buff?  = Jeeze, we=20 Pennsy guys still see the world as flat ... so we have been = told. =20

>I don't = understand why=20 Walther's left off the Car Numbers on the Car Ends = ?<

They weren't left off they were never = applied thank=20 heavens. There were not required on passenger equipment. =

>The Side Ladders are painted the Body = color. As far=20 as I know they should be Black. I am sure this was a Budget=20 reason.<

Bob = Johnson and I=20 went over the safety appliances with Walthers several times and = regardless as=20 to what the spec.'s read we couldn't justify all that was written and = if I am=20 not mistaken it says black but we could not find any photos to support = that at=20 all, but we did find body color, this was also the case with the = diagonal=20 braces that support the roof walk, says black always body color.=20

>Overall I give = the Model a=20 "B." It would probably be better in My Opinion to Buy the un-Painted = cars and=20 Paint and Letter them (Champ Decals) yourself. But until we here = (hear) from=20 Martin on his, this is really not a bad = choice.<

In lite of the things have been listed as short = comings I=20 would hope that you all might reconsider the early assessment of the = kit and=20 more forward and buy with confidence. I believe at some point Walthers = will=20 offer them in undecorated, but I would think you would be hard pressed = to do=20 better. So far as Martin doing the kit, unless he plans to do a truck, = Walthers is going to release these truck after 2004, unless they = decide to go=20 forward with the B60b as considered and then it will be longer. So the = truck=20 becomes a problem.

The credit for this projects complete accuracy and=20 authenticity is primarily do to the extensive research so gratefully = weathered=20 by Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS and his access to the extensive = files of=20 which he seem to be the "key keeper."  Thanks again, Bob Johnson = it was=20 fun working with you on this one.

Greg = Martin=20




From:=20 Bill Volkmer
To: 'Weinland' ; PRR-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 = 1:57=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona's = ROSE=20 Tower

This=20 is far different appearance than the way I remember Rose Tower in 1958 = when I=20 worked in Altoona.  The roof had been entirely rebuilt and did = not have=20 anything in the way of cupolas, dormers or whatever you call the stuff = on the=20 roof.  Also the tower portion had been = amputated.
 
You=20 are correct in your observations that a- the view looks southeasterly, = and b-=20 that the two tracks in the foreground were the passenger main tracks, = which=20 brings up a funny story.
 
Take=20 a look at the window in the lower left hand corner of the = building.  Note=20 particularly how close to the track it is.  I would say 15 feet = would be=20 a good guess as to how close to the CENTERLINE of the track that = window=20 was.  Well, that happened to be the Trainmaster's Office.  = Not only=20 was it the Trainmaster's Office, but the TM, Ralph Decker in those = days, used=20 to sit in his chair with the back tilted up against the windowsill and = his=20 head literally resting against the glass.
 
I=20 will never forget the first day I visited Ralph in that office.  = He was=20 sitting  in the tilted  position, when an eastbound = passenger train=20 (probably 50 the Admiral running a little late) roared past.  = When I say=20 roared past, I mean ROARED past.  Every window pain in the entire = building shook and rattled.  I personally was looking for a = window to=20 jump out of.
 
Ralph kind of grinned, never moved a muscle, and pointed over = his=20 shoulder, "Best damned maintained piece of track on the entire = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad!  Gets inspected EVERY DAY by the Trainmaster=20 himself!"
 
I=20 found the picture at :  http://www.trainweb.= org/horseshoecurve-nrhs
and go to the Altoona and Juniata photos = page and=20 scroll down to the bottom right hand photo, in case you had trouble locating=20 it.
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 Weinland
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:08 = PM
To:=20 PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Altoona's ROSE=20 Tower

I'm a new subscriber. I've been reading your message traffic over = the=20 past few days and I have to say it's very interesting! I'm glad I = found this=20 list!=20

I am modeling the PRRs Altoona yard in HO scale. I'm looking for=20 information on the various towers there with special interest in my = current=20 project - ROSE Tower. I found this great photo at:=20

http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecur= ve-nrhs/Photos/Traction/added_5-02/ALVERY%20red%20bridge.jpg=20

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other 2 sides of the = building look=20 like. Does anyone out there have photos or first hand experience = that they=20 would care to share with me?=20

Based on my own analysis, this is what I've determined: 1) The=20 photographer is facing southeast. The tracks in the foreground are = the=20 passenger tracks that run north of the freight yard and south of the = shops.=20 2) The main building is brick. The Tower addition on the south west = corner=20 is wooden. 3) The main brick building is 25 feet deep and 45 feet = long. The=20 two lower floors are almost 21 feet tall. The third floor is just = over 11=20 feet tall. 4) The wooden tower addition to the building protrudes 3 = feet out=20 to the west of the building. It appears that it also protrudes 3 = feet out to=20 the south (unseen). 5) The tower is 14 feet on the west side and I = think=20 it's about 17 feet across the south (unseen) side. 6) The = windows are=20 34 inches wide and 68 inches high.=20

I still don't know anything substancial about the other 2 sides. = I don't=20 even know where the door is. Any information/photos on any of the = other=20 Altoona Towers (WORKS, SOUTH, FARM, HOMER, ANTIS) would also be = greatly=20 appreciated.=20

Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me or post = here.=20 Thanks in advance.=20

Ron

rkweinland@knology.net