From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 08:51:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List. I am thinning out some double items so I have the following items for sale. Please contact me off list using the above subject please for further information. The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - The History of the Floods of March,1936 & January,1937 by Chas. W. Garrett. 154pgs. Excellent Cond. with some slight wear to top edge of rear cover near spine (from being in a tight shelf) and at front corner. Loads of great pictures and maps of weather information leading to the flood. Name of original owner inside front cover with Sept.15,1937 date. PRR CT1000E-May1,1945. Pages 129-158 have a notch cut out for easier referencing Phila. Div. Most likely from a former Phila. Div. employee. Book in excellent condition. Two Atlas N-scale PRR SD35,#6025 & #6018. New,never run. Would like to sell together. Two Atlas Great Northern FA1. Both powered. New older stock. I never ran them and I don't think they were ever run before I bought them as I got them a few years after they came out. Project cancelled. Thanks. Happy New Year to everyone. Pat McKinney --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List.
               I am thinning out some double items so I have the following
items for sale. Please contact me off list using the above subject please
for further information.

The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - The History of the Floods of March,1936
  & January,1937 by Chas. W. Garrett. 154pgs. Excellent Cond. with some
  slight wear to top edge of rear cover near spine (from being in a tight shelf)
  and at front corner. Loads of great pictures and maps of weather information
  leading to the flood. Name of original owner inside front cover with
  Sept.15,1937 date.

PRR CT1000E-May1,1945. Pages 129-158 have a notch cut out for easier
  referencing Phila. Div. Most likely from a former Phila. Div. employee. Book
  in excellent condition.

Two Atlas N-scale PRR SD35,#6025 & #6018. New,never run. Would like to
  sell together.

Two Atlas Great Northern FA1. Both powered. New older stock. I never ran
  them and I don't think they were ever run before I bought them as I got
  them a few years after they came out. Project cancelled.

Thanks. Happy New Year to everyone.

Pat McKinney

   --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Item For Sale Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:50:39 -0500 Group, I have an older Dremmel Drill press for sale I doen't fit my Dremmel. The throat is 1 3/4" If anybody is interested feel free to e-mail me direct at svastano@hotmail.com I am open to any offer. It will not work for me at all. The condition is good. Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:14:00 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Middle Division Michael, Would you be more specific as to the location of these screenshots? I was unsuccessful in a search of the forum sections, as well as other places. Thanks, and Happy New Year, Steve Bartlett Michael DiMaio wrote: I know where it is.. ... There are screen shots available in the fora at http://www.train- sim.com ... Michael DiMaio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Inventory Blow-Out Sale Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:47:16 -0500 The tax man cometh so the inventory must goeth. Items to be sold at 40-50% off MSRP's and I am offering items to listmember before my general mailing goes out. To view list please go to www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/saleitems.doc Happy hunting. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Repacked Dates Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:35:55 -0700 Bill, Repacking of journal bearings was usually done on a 24 month cycle. The process was that the journal box was jacked up under the cellar and the packing material underneath the journal bearing, (cotton waste or more likely later on a specially developed pad, unofficially refered to as a "Kotex") would be removed and replaced. The bearing surfaces would be inspected for damage. The axle would then be dropped while the new packing material would then be oiled. This was done on all eight (for most cars) journal boxes and the car would be restenciled to reflect the maintenance performed. Most cars were checked for oil on a almost daily basis...car knockers would carry a can of oil while inspecting inbound trains at a yard, lift the cover and add oil if needed. The pad was developed due to the fact that sometimes due to hard coupling the bearing would lift off the journal surface on the axle and a string of waste sometimes would get lodged under the babbit metal. This would lead to oil starvation on the bearing (the oil would form a wedge and be the actual load carrying surface on which the load was carried) would "wipe" causing bearing failure (hotbox). Another cause of bearing failure was the fact that bums and transients would remove the waste to use to start fires at night. Interestingly enough, most of the time at speeds greater than 15 mph, a conventional journal bearing had the same rolling resistance as a roller bearing. But the higher maintenance requirements, constant oil leakage on the face of the wheels (ever notice that all wheel faces on conventional bearing eqipped cars were dead black?) and cold weather resistance (due to higher oil viscosities in cold weather) at low speeds (as well as the other points mentioned above) led to the eventual banning of conventional bearings in railroad use. However, they are still used today in many applications. Please note that I do NOT refer to these bearings as "friction" bearings (there ain't no such thing) This was a slander that was due to the direct advertising efforts of the Timken Company to bad mouth these bearings. I once met a engineer who worked for Timken and he confirmed that this was the case. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 Bill Lane wrote: > Hi All, > > If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would > it be out on the > road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply > adding oil, or > disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does > the type of car make > a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the > main question is, > what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to > it's first painted > repacked date? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:41:32 -0600 Pofoff stainless steel grills may not be solvable for all conditions. Stainless steel expands and contracts at a different rate with respect to temperature than plastic, so the grill may fit at one condition, but not the other. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 6:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 12/31/02 3:13:22 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I can't tell you about brass, but the Athearn Genesis F-7s have to be either the best or right up there. >> Once you remove the extra horn and do something (don't know what, yet) about the mediocre mechanism. But on the bright side, the colors are right and the shell casting is great. BTW, they still haven't solved the problem of the popoff stainless grilles, but I can't fault them for that---no one else has, either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:18:42 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Exciting News --=====================_130421486==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed During the holidays I had the opportunity to view the masters for a new line of Pennsy structures. Most of these will be released in N scale through G scale. Estimated release dates should be starting in the spring 2003. Keep watch for the releases at www.trainstuffllc.com. Randy Williamson --=====================_130421486==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

During the holidays I had the opportunity to view the masters for a new line of Pennsy structures.  Most of these will be released in N scale through G scale.  Estimated release dates should be starting in the spring 2003.  Keep watch for the releases at www.trainstuffllc.com.

Randy Williamson --=====================_130421486==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy F7 Stainless Grills Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:47:11 -0500 I've had better results by using 3M spray adhesive. It remains flexible and sticky. The trick is applying it without getting it all over everything. I take the grills and clean them, then lay them on a sheet of newspaper, outdoors. I spray the back side (side to be attached to the model) lightly and evenly. Then, I lay it against the model and press gently. Spray should be just enough that it doesn't begin to fill up the openings in the grill. If you do apply too much adhesive, remove it with lacquer thinner and try it again. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Hello Bob & list...... You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre mechanism". What don't you like about the mech? I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just curious. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates List, Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:43:43 -0500 Gary, Those would be either the Baldwin or Lima "transfer" units with two prime movers and a center cab, classes BS24 and LS25, both were built starting in 1951. PRR 5683 was the last locomotive built by Lima. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates > List, > > Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After > learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was > attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. > This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 > unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos > represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did > they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:43:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Gregg, I thought of those locos also but PP2 says those locos were 2500 HP, not 2000 HP. Maybe the PRR never built the 7 2 unit 2000 HP locos? .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:02:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Exciting News --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J tower end of 2002??? Anyone got photos of the prototype or some info on the time period and so forth. I need more info! :) I will have to sell all my other kits for PRR specific stuff! :) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J tower end of 2002???  Anyone got photos of the prototype or some info on the time period and so forth.  I need more info! :)  I will have to sell all my other kits for PRR specific stuff! :)


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates List, Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Hess" Subject: [PRR] Worst PRR Models Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:59:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, =20 There has been a thread about the worst PRR models. What can you tell me about the Mantua PRR 0-4-0 switcher with the slope = back tender. Does this resemble anything that PRR ever had and if so = what road number was assigned? Thanks, Bob Hess ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

List,   
    There has been a = thread about=20 the worst PRR models.
What can you tell me about the Mantua = PRR 0-4-0=20 switcher with the slope back tender.  Does this resemble anything = that PRR=20 ever had and if so what road number was assigned?
Thanks,
 
Bob Hess
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:01:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Worst PRR Models --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are obviously just a youngster - in the 1960's Aristo - Craft sold european steam locos, complete with red plastic driver centers - as PRR, once tried to file a pair of them, purchase "two fer" into G-5's but they were just incredibly poor. If the Mantua 0-4-0 bothered you, you could always buy an English plastic A-5, less a motor, for 99 cents. A-5 boiler actually looked better on the Mantua "big six" chassis as a B-6. --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit     You are obviously just a youngster - in the 1960's Aristo - Craft sold european steam locos, complete with red plastic driver centers - as PRR, once tried to file a pair of them, purchase "two fer" into G-5's but they were just incredibly poor.
    If the Mantua 0-4-0 bothered you, you could always buy an English plastic A-5, less a motor, for 99 cents. A-5 boiler actually looked better on the Mantua "big six" chassis as a B-6.

 --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:27:39 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - IHC Pass. Cars From: Beth Caples Is the smooth side observation car that IHC CURRENTLY OFFERS the same as the PRR's Tower Series Car with the flat tail end? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 09:56:14 -0800 Good luck getting the signals to work properly on TS. I spent quite a bit of time trying to get the NEC signals right and finally gave up. When I was still employed by Uncle Bill, I tried my best to offer help to the TrainSim team when the product was still under development, but they weren't at all interested. The primary problem is that the signal API (application programming interface) is geared towards route signaling and not speed signaling like the PRR used. Route signaling is where the indication informs the engineer which route is selected and the engineer travels at the proper speed. Speed signaling tells the engineer what speed to go with no information about what route is selected. The intermediate signals were workable, but the scripting language was simply not robust enough to properly calculate interlocking signal indications in anything but the simplest of situations. The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the cabsignal. On the NEC simulation, you can fly past a clear signal at full speed, only to get an overspeed penalty brake application, because the cabsignal changed in anticipation of the next signal. John -----Original Message----- From: mdimaio@ids.net To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, December 30, 2002 5:10 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Middle Division Currently, the last task to be done is to complete the installation of signals. Currently the signals reach from Harrisburg to Lewistown. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:10:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division John Cooper wrote: "The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the cabsignal." But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. No? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:23:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. Absolutely NOT, cab signals carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by, NOT the signal ahead. Al --Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Re: But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet.
 
 
Absolutely NOT, cab signals carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by, NOT the signal ahead.
 
Al

 
--Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:22:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab signals should change to "approach". Right? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:36:04 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Dave said, "I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab signals should change to "approach". Right?" No Dave that's not correct, you carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until to get to the next signal. If you go by a "clear" the cab stays "clear" also until the next signal. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:47:22 -0700 Dave and all, I have no idea what this means...I own a three unit set of these in PRR and they are some of the finest drives I have ever run. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Bob & list...... > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre > mechanism". What > don't you like about the mech? > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just > curious. > > Dave Hopson > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:08:43 -0500 I own an A-A-B-A set of F's and I think that the drive surpasses the Kato drives for F-units. I am thinking of buying another A-B set. Go ahead and buy your set! That is my recommendation. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units > Dave and all, > > I have no idea what this means...I own a three unit set of > these in PRR and they are some of the finest drives I have > ever run. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) > zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Hello Bob & list...... > > > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre > > mechanism". What > > don't you like about the mech? > > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just > > curious. > > > > Dave Hopson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Thanks Ted, I've got a bunch of emails about how great they are. "Just as good as Kato drives" sounds good to me. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:31:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division 0100,0100,0100OK, I agree with John and Al now, the cab signal agrees with the signal the engine has just passed. I just spent some time with the rule book, and now I understand how it all is supposed to work: the cab signal conforms with the fixed signal shortly after passing the fixed signal; if conditions improve subsequently, the cab signal will display a more favorable indication, which then governs; or if something goes wrong (like a train running a signal and entering your block) the cab signal will show Restricting, which the engineman must be governed by. And if the cab signal does not conform with the signal just passed, it's an irregular condition that must be reported; if the cab signal gave a more favorable indication, in fact, the engine is to be taken out of service for inspection on arrival at the terminal. You learn something every day! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:08:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units In a message dated 1/1/03 12:45:39 PM Central Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << What don't you like about the mech? >> It is noisy. I have had two of the (quite thin, in my opinion underdesigned) dogbones out of 6 fracture. One of the truck assemblies was falling apart when I got it and works now, but is shaky. It is better than 75 percent of the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I don't have a new Kato to compare). I only made my remarks because I questioned calling it one of the best PRR locos made. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:27:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units In a message dated 1/1/03 8:13:17 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: << It is better than 75 percent of the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I don't have a new Kato to compare) >> Just to clarify, I am referring to the mechanism. The shell is probably better than all of the locos of 25 years ago . Again, it is not my intent to bash Athearn, though I have considered making up an aftermarket metal dogbone for the units. IMO, the new Stewart F mechanism is better. Haven't ever run an Intermountain unit, so can't comment. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Newspaper article on Altoona Railroaders Museum While looking for something else, I found: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_108419.html ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > It is noisy. I have had two of the (quite thin, in my opinion underdesigned) > dogbones out of 6 fracture. One of the truck assemblies was falling apart > when I got it and works now, but is shaky. It is better than 75 percent of > the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I > don't have a new Kato to compare). I only made my remarks because I > questioned calling it one of the best PRR locos made. I haven't run mine. If that happens to mine, I still stick with my choice, because I can easily replace drive components; Detailing and repainting a body is considerably harder. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:28:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Train-Sim Signals for the Middle Division As the one who has had the most experioence with PRR position light signals on the Mid Div within the sim, I thoughjtI would jump into the discussion (I installed 135 miles worth of them). First, no one really understands how signals work in MSTS. Mike Vone one of the two two deans of route design says as much in his standard work on route building. KUJU (the programers of MSTS) have never explained how they work. No one who designs a route expects them or should expect them to behave like those in the real world (pace the views ofd mygood friend Hank Sundermeyer aka the Signalmaster). Richard Garber, the other dean of route building and who has written the standard work on MSTS activity design, says the signals serve the function of flow control. That is to say, to keep ai trains (those controled by the computer) from being stalemated with the player's train. This means that a route designer has to optimize the signals to keep traffic moving, even if it means not following the prototype. I have attempted to follow the prototype and it may well cause problems with ai trains. Ill know in a day or two. Nore later! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:04:00 EST Subject: [PRR] And the answer is -- Lines West roundhouse, probably not --part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick??????? > ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan > To: 'Earl Myers' > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse > > > > Earl, > > There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to > certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think > friend Rick Tipton may have the answer. > > Al > > -----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse Al; I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened. Earl Myers >> Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question. This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book. Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses. Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana. Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been. Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air. I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes. OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)... <> And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea: << Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson >> I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design. The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes:


Rick???????
----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan
To: 'Earl Myers'
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse



Earl,

There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think friend Rick Tipton may have the answer.

Al


-----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM
To: Al Buchan
Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse


Al;
 I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened.
Earl Myers

>>

Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question.  This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book.

Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses.  Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana.  Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been.

Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air.  I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes.

OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)...

<<Re: PRR Crestline, Ohio roundhouse
From: John Amstrong "mjjarm@earthlink.net"
Category: General Questions
Date: 9/29/99
Time: 10:24:33 PM
Remote Name: 63.22.175.39
Comments
Th roundhuse was built by the Austin Co of Cleveland Ohio. I produced the models used in Th Austin FORTUNE Magazine ads for 13 years. The hadphotos but would not allow me to copy or use them. They built EMD's La Grange plant. Loaned the photos to the party who wrote the Trains article on EMD, and never saw the photos again. No one had access to anything after that. The photos showed USRA locos on the turntable>>

And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea:

<< Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures
From: "Bob Johnson" <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400

Greg and List,

I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with
considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were
actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any
other railroad build them?

Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I
found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no
reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western
Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477".
Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20,
1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to
get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA
designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design.

The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls:
Stark E.H., Canton - 30
Crestline E.H. - 30
Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?]
Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15
Jeffersonville E.H. - 15
Scully E.H. - 34

The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's
no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another
source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and
Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received
this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets
of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design,
instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of
drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for
Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to
the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32
stalls for a full circle.

Bob Johnson
>>

I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design.  The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. 

Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off).
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:29:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any given signal governs the track that lays beyond it. Therefore, at = any given time, the engineer is always complying with the rules of the = last signal he's seen. The cabsignals have the same amount of authority = to govern as do any wayside signal the engineer could look at. The = cabsignals are not merely an aide or convenience. Because they have the = same amount of authority, naturally there must be agreement between the = cabsignals and the wayside in terms of what the engineer is required to = do. Therefore the cabsignal must agree with the last signal passed. So for example, if an engineer passes an approach indication and has = come upon a stop signal, it is not the stop signal ahead of him that is = governing his movement (or lack thereof). Even when he is stopped in = front of the stop signal, he is still governed by the previous = "approach" which says: "Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal". = He is free to proceed forward anywhere in the block. The only thing he = can't do is pass the stop signal. As odd as it may seem, the cabsignals = will display approach when a train is stopped in front of a stop signal. = (There is an exception which I'll cover below) Walk to the front and = look in the window of an eastbound on the upper level of 30th st, or = westbound in Suburban station to see for yourself. =20 Likewise, if an engineer is viewing an approach signal, he need not = touch the brake until he passes it. The previous signal governs until = then. Thus the cabsignals will stay "clear" until the train passes the = "approach". The braking distances are calculated with this in mind when = the signal system is being designed. (There was actually much debate in = the PC days after the merger among rules examiners, because the NYC = believed the engineer was to react as soon as he saw the signal).=20 =20 There are a couple of exceptions to when the cabsignals don't agree with = the last signal. Because it is somewhat strange to have an approach on = the cabsignals when stopped at a stop signal, they implemented "code = change points" at interlockings. This was a point somewhere before an = interlocking home signal where the cabsignals would change to = restricting if the home signal was displaying stop, stop and proceed, or = restricting. The location of this point is usually clearly documented = on interlocking diagrams. The station tracks at 30th st and Suburban = station don't have code change points which is why I suggest them as = examples. =20 The other exception is after having crossed over and leaving the limits = of an interlocking. If the train crossed over on a "medium clear", that = rule says to proceed at medium speed within interlocking limits. = Outside interlocking limits, there is no speed restriction. In this = case, the cabsignal will display "approach medium" to conform (as best = it can) to the medium clear. At end of interlocking limits, the = cabsignal will return to "clear". =20 John =20 -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division John Cooper wrote: =20 =20 "The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed = to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the = cabsignal." =20 But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they = display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are = passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you = can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the = approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. =20 No? =20 John Bobsin =20 =20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any given signal governs the track that lays beyond = it. =20 Therefore, at any given time, the engineer is always complying with the = rules of=20 the last signal he's seen.  The cabsignals = have the=20 same amount of authority to govern as do any wayside signal the engineer = could=20 look at.  The cabsignals are not merely an aide or = convenience. =20 Because they have the same amount of authority, naturally there must be=20 agreement between the cabsignals and the wayside in terms of what the = engineer=20 is required to do.  Therefore the cabsignal must agree with the = last signal=20 passed.
 
So for example, if an engineer passes an approach = indication=20 and has come upon a stop signal, it is not the stop signal ahead of him = that is=20 governing his movement (or lack thereof).  Even when he is stopped = in front=20 of the stop signal, he is still governed by the previous = "approach"=20 which says: "Proceed prepared to stop at the next = signal".  He is=20 free to proceed forward anywhere in the block.  The only thing he = can't do=20 is pass the stop signal.  As odd as it may seem, the cabsignals = will=20 display approach when a train is stopped in front of a stop = signal.  (There=20 is an exception which I'll cover below)  Walk to the front and look = in the=20 window of an eastbound on the upper level of 30th st, or westbound in = Suburban=20 station to see for yourself.
 
Likewise, if an engineer is viewing an approach = signal, he=20 need not touch the brake until he passes it.  The previous signal = governs=20 until then.  Thus the cabsignals will stay "clear" until = the=20 train passes the "approach".  The braking distances are=20 calculated with this in mind when the signal system is being = designed. =20 (There was actually much debate in the PC days after the merger among = rules=20 examiners, because the NYC believed the engineer was to react as soon as = he saw=20 the signal). 
 
There are a couple of exceptions to when the = cabsignals don't=20 agree with the last signal.  Because it is somewhat strange to have = an=20 approach on the cabsignals when stopped at a stop signal, they = implemented=20 "code change points" at interlockings.  This was a point=20 somewhere before an interlocking home signal where the cabsignals would = change=20 to restricting if the home signal was displaying stop, stop and proceed, = or=20 restricting.  The location of this point is usually clearly = documented on=20 interlocking diagrams.  The station tracks at 30th st and Suburban = station=20 don't have code change points which is why I suggest them as=20 examples.
 
The other exception is after having crossed over and = leaving=20 the limits of an interlocking.  If the train crossed over on a = "medium=20 clear", that rule says to proceed at medium speed within = interlocking=20 limits.  Outside interlocking limits, there is no speed = restriction. =20 In this case, the cabsignal will display "approach medium" to = conform=20 (as best it can) to the medium clear.  At end of interlocking = limits, the=20 cabsignal will return to "clear".
 
John
 
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 bobsin@nac.net <bobsin@nac.net>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = TrainSim=20 signals Was: PRR Middle Division

John=20 Cooper wrote:


"The second problem is with the cab = signals.=20 In train sim, the cab
signal reflects the next signal ahead of = the train.=20 It is supposed to
reflect the last signal the train has passed. = This of=20 course totally
messes up any speed enforcement that is associated = with=20 the cabsignal."

But isn't this the way real cab signals = work? I=20 always thought they display an indication that reflects the next = signal=20 ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next = signal=20 is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal = yet, the=20 cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal = you=20 can't see yet.

No?

John = Bobsin


--------------------------------------------------=

---------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates (explained) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:35:53 -0500 The repacked (required) date varied over the years depending upon the type of bearings and the lubricating pads. The AAR published requirements each year and it was up to the railroad moving the car to note the last repack date and if the car was overdate, they would shop it and repack it. The term "repack" goes back to the days when all cars had friction bearings and cotton waste jammed into the journal box which acted as a wick to absorb the oil and oil the bottom of the axle journal. The oil would then stick on the axle as it rotated under the friction bearing on the top of the axle. Wastepack was used exclusively in 1955 and if I remember correctly, the cars needed to be repacked (i.e. all waste removed and replaced with new and the bearing inspected or replaced) every two years. The road doing the work, then stenciled their road name, shop location and date on the car. Then then billed the owning road for the work performed at a rate set by the AAR. Around 1957 or 58 the wastepack began to be replaced by foam rubber pads that were enclosed in a layer of canvas with cotton threads covering the whole think simlar to the sponge mops we use today. There were literally hundereds of varieties of these pads and some were quickly withdrawn from the approved list because they were failure prone. At anyrate, the two years requirement for wastepack was extended to four years (as I remember it) and in the early 1960s, cotton waste was outlawed from use and a restricted number of brands of foam rubber pads were allowed. Of course the roller bearing cars had re-lube requirements as well and the railroads followed the same pattern. Stencil the date re-lubed and bill the car owner. Towards the end of the friction bearing era, the N&W developed the flat back bearing which spread the load over a much wider area and the Pennsy late model hopper cars had these. The 100 ton cars had roller bearings with a few of them getting the sealed "Clevite" friction bearings which had a bad track record. Hope this helps a little. Bill Volkmer (been to lots of wrecks with failed journal bearings as the culprit) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lane Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 11:12 AM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:44:08 -0500 List: The only problem I've had with the Genesis locos is the electrical pickup. The electrical pickup is transferred from the wheel axles to brass plates located inside the plastic frames. This is fine except that the brass plates are NOT a bearing surface, so the power continuity can be momentarily lost. This is a problem on DCC as it will cause the locos to stop momentarily. This is a nuisance. I've corrected this by running jumper wires between all three locos in consist. This will almost guarantee that you'll never lose power to the decoders. Since adding these jumpers, I've had no problems with the Genesis and consider them to be some of the finest locos I own. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 1:45 PM Subject: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units > Hello Bob & list...... > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre mechanism". What > don't you like about the mech? > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just curious. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:06:18 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - IHC Pass. Cars Beth, No, the current IHC obs is a boat tail car. I have been told that the prototype for the current IHC streamlined cars are SF and Southern. Presumably some smoothside SF cars and some PS fluted Southern prototypes were chosen and then each kind was done in both smooth side and fluted. So half the cars have no prototype at all! Then they painted the cars, the prototype SF cars the prototype Southern Cars, and those with no prototype at all, for every RR they thought might sell. The cars also were made with Budd ends As an aside, the Southern prototype cars are reasonable, if you shave the Budd stuff off the ends, remove the oversize window frames, and replace the trucks. I rebuilt several coaches, a diner, and a combine (all Southern prototypes) for a Birmingham Special to run behind a GG-1. Of all the Southern connections which ran on the corridor, I chose the Birmingham Special because it was one of the few trains which carried the obscure Pullman which Bachmann produces. I had to find some use for that car! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Beth Caples wrote: > Is the smooth side observation car that IHC CURRENTLY OFFERS the same > as the PRR's Tower Series Car with the flat tail end? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:53:03 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum The temporary board of directors got Mr. Cessna to come in & clean up the mess at the museum. Maybe I'm missing something from the article but now, whoever, wants the life members to give up their voting rights for new people to stand for election to a new board of directors to confirm/oversee Mr. Cessna's actions. Instead, the lifers will be given a pat on the back and told, "Yeah, your $ were blown. Now, please go away. We are in charge, have different plans, and you will mess up the operation." What was not defined in the article:- 1) who elects the new ARM board of directors; 2) who is allowed to run for the new BoD; 3) who is this new organization which appears as the white knight - will they and their BoD really be in charge. They are able to run the ARM cheaper/efficiently? how? What is wrong with electing a new ARM BoD? They are placing a lot emphasis on bylaw changes or electing a new director - that is the skunk stink in the woodpile. Most organizations have a mechanism to appoint a director until the next election occurs. And what bylaw changes so desperately need to be made? There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about the ARM's future - guess I've heard one too many, "Trust us; we're in charge now - go away but still send $." Someone has found an 'Ivory Tower' in need of renovation and control - my nasty ole perspective. -=- Bob Colquitt another "Sweet Old Bob" > Subject: Newspaper article on Altoona Railroaders Museum > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) > > While looking for something else, I found: > > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_108419.html > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:39:01 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Listmembers, I posted this in hopes of getting additional measurements. Does anyone out there have an early PFM I1s with the supposedly smaller boiler, who can put a caliper to the smokebox front and tell us what is the diameter? My suspicion is that all the PFM I1s had the correct diameter boiler. Tom Hayden >-----Original Message----- >From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines > > >List, > >Maybe we can settle this. > >First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the >I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second >run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the >tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. > >More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more >correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. > >Here's what I have so far : > >I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR >loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with >measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These >are the dimensions at the smokebox: > >I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" >K4, L1 are 82 " > >In measuring all the models I and others own : > >I1's >Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) >PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) >Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc >casting) >PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late >"correct" size) >Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) >M1's >Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) >Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) >K4s/L1's >PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) >PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) >PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) >Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) >Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) > >I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to >different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small >difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made >directly across the smokebox front. > >If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe >they could make a measurement and add to this. > >Regards, Tom Hayden > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:15:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum In a message dated 1/2/03 10:02:51 AM, wahsatch@planetcomm.net writes: << Maybe I'm missing something from the article but now, whoever, wants the life members to give up their voting rights for new people to stand for election to a new board of directors to confirm/oversee Mr. Cessna's actions. Instead, the lifers will be given a pat on the back and told, "Yeah, your $ were blown. Now, please go away. We are in charge, have different plans, and you will mess up the operation." What was not defined in the article:- 1) who elects the new ARM board of directors; 2) who is allowed to run for the new BoD; 3) who is this new organization which appears as the white knight - will they and their BoD really be in charge. They are able to run the ARM cheaper/efficiently? how? >> I can't get through to the article but did do a Guidestar search (www.guidestar.org) & found "Railroaders Memorial Museum, Inc. Altoona, PA 16602 The mission of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum to honor railroad workers and their significant contributions to the culture and development of the railroad industry and to preserve this rich heritage for the education, enjoyment and enrichment of present and future generations." This is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit and has rules of governance very different from a standard corporation. Their tax return is at the Guidestar site. They have $15 million in assets ($14 in "investments") and an annual income of $1.6 million. I do a lot of volunteering to fix 501(c)(3). This much money and the salaries and perqs that go with can easily start a fight. The ED is shown as a guy named McNitt, a six year employee, IIRC. The construct of the BoD and who has power is a function of the by laws (not posted). But, "life" members may not have a vote. Directors can serve for a fixed period (we suggest not more than 3 terms of 2 years each) with elections staggered. After the six years, a loyal & interested director goes o n an "advisory" board. This is probably the "life" board. They have no vote but are carried on the letterhead. Warning - YMMV. Anyone interested should contact the museum directly and ask for a copy of the by laws, the state charter, and the 990s (IRS tax forms) for the past three years. All are, I believe, public records under federal law. A modest copying fee may be charged and all should be available, on demand, for personal inspection at the museum's primary business location. Regards, Marty   ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:33:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum The plot has moved on: "ALTOONA: Members give up voting Life members of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum have agreed to give up their voting rights as the financially troubled museum struggles to overcome its debts. The 800 life members had the power to vote on bylaw changes and elect board members, but otherwise did not run daily operations. The members voted 54-29 Saturday to give up their rights. Usually, fewer than 50 members attended annual meetings and some time ago, a quorum was reduced to 25. Scott Cessna, executive director of the museum, said answering to 800 members was too cumbersome and that streamlining would help the museum. In place of the life members, a nine member board will decide museum matters. Dick Charlesworth, a board member since 1975, likened the move to the voters of Pennsylvania giving the General Assembly the right to become self-perpetuating. Harley Burket, a life member, said while the change might be a step backward from a democratic ideal, the members hardly have a right to squawk because so few participated. The life members, most of whom paid $100 or $500, still will get perks such as free museum access and discounts. The museum has been hailed as a model for transit museums. It's on the site of what had been the largest factory for the Pennsylvania Railroad But in the spring, it found itself about $750,000 in debt. That's been pared to about $200,000 since a crisis management team took control. The new board will now consider whether to enter into a management agreement with Westsylvania Heritage Corp., which conserves and promotes heritage assets in the Altoona region. That could take place next month, Cessna said. The idea is for the museum to begin acting like a for-profit organization and become less reliant on government grants and more self-sustaining, Cessna said." Source: http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_east/20021223eburbp9.asp Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:04:00 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] And the answer is -- Lines West roundhouse, probably not USRA roundhouse In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick??????? > ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan > To: 'Earl Myers' > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse > > > > Earl, > > There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to > certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think > friend Rick Tipton may have the answer. > > Al > > -----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse Al; I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened. Earl Myers >> Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question. This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book. Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses. Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana. Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been. Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air. I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes. OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)... <> And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea: << Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson >> I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design. The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:36:36 -0500 From: bisbeelaw@cs.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) The early I-1 models from PFM used the boiler from the L-1/K-4. It was noticeably smaller than the correct boiler. The Pennline/Bowser I-1 boiler was also, at first, the same as their L-1/K-4 and thus too small. I don't know whether the latest Bowser I-1 boiler is correct, though I would imagine it is... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:52:52 -0500 Alex: Try this : http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr018.htm or these : http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr206.htm http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr212.htm -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Alex Charyna Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:21 PM To: PRR-Talk Posting Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Nice shot Ted. The Strasburg RR has a great computer wallpaper picture of #31. I'm looking for a Pennsy winter shot suitable for desktop wallpaper. Though any Pennsy snow pictures would be welcome. Please share links... (on or off list).. thanks. -alesx ----- Original Message ----- But as for the Pennsylvania, click on the following link to what I think is one of the best Pennsy-Christmas pictures ever taken. http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/contributor/scb-adams.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:51:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum In a message dated 1/2/03 10:02:51 AM, wahsatch@planetcomm.net writes: << There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about the ARM's future - guess I've heard one too many, "Trust us; we're in charge now - go away but still send $." Someone has found an 'Ivory Tower' in need of renovation and control - my nasty ole perspective. >> You've got me started. A Google search for "Scott Cessna" turned up a lot, including what looks to be the news index from a local radio station, WRTA. Source: "http://www.brianthomaswebworks.com/wrta/news2/viewnews.asp" >From this site, I culled the following: RAILROADERS MUSEUM -12/10/02 The Railroaders Memorial Museum is asking the city for help in securing 1.9 million dollars in additional funding from the government to complete the work at the museum. The city’s participation in securing the funding would not involve any outlay of any city money. ALTOONA RAILROADERS MEMORIAL MUSEUM -12/9/02 The interim executive board of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum will ask the museum’s 800 life members to relinguish their power over the organization at a meeting on December 21st. The interim board has guided the museum since the museum’s 750 thousand dollar debt became known in the spring. Members of the temporary board say the museum would be better served if a self-perpetuating executive board were apointed to run the museum. If the life members agree to vote away their power later this month, they will still retain their admission and museum-store discount privileges. RAILRAODERS MUSEUM -11/18/02 Last week, Scott Cessna was named the new Executive Director of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Cessna has been overseeing operations since the museum first appointed a special committee to save the facility from financial ruin. Cessna accepted the job, knowing that his tenure could be short with the possibility that the Westsylvania Heritage Group could take over operation of the museum. MUSEUM -11/12/02 Just one group so far has picked up information packets to make a pitch for control of the financially troubles Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, and proposals are due Friday. Scott Cessna, interim Finance Director, say it’s unlikely any other group has the time to pick up a packet and prepare a complete proposal. Westsylvania Heritage Corporation will propose intregating the museum into its ongoing mission to conserve and market the region’s heritage assets. RAILROADERS MUSEUM -10/16/02 Of all the uncertainty revolving around the Altoona Railroaders Museum, one thing appears to be clear. They need a bigger staff to promote and run the museum effectively. WRTA News spoke with the acting treasurer, Scott Cessna, who said that they are looking to have a staff of around 15 to 18 people. They currently have 10 employees. Cessna said that they are looking at two ways to do this. First, they can add staff of their own, or they can hire an outside group to run the museum. They have asked for proposals to be submitted within 30 days. RAILROADERS MUSEUM -10/15/02 It looks like the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is ready to make a management change. The Museum’s Executive Committee is looking for an outside firm, experienced with heritage and tourism, to take over the management operations. Committee Treasurer Scott Cessna says museum leadership will review proposals and then decide whether or not to turn over the day to day operations. A decision could be made by Thanksgiving. MUSEUM -10/4/02 The Altoona Railroaders Museum is hoping to have a big weekend during Railfest this Saturday and Sunday. The museum is holding a chicken barbecue at the museum Saturday. The museum, over the course of the weekend, is hoping to raise 30 thousand dollars. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:52:45 -0500 Tom: I don't own an early version of the PFM I1 but I can tell you that it was wrong. PFM used a K4 boiler on their early I1's also with undersized front air tanks. Very bad! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hayden To: PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) > Listmembers, > > I posted this in hopes of getting additional measurements. > Does anyone out there have an early PFM I1s with the supposedly smaller > boiler, who can put a caliper to the smokebox front and tell us what is the > diameter? My suspicion is that all the PFM I1s had the correct diameter > boiler. > > Tom Hayden > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM > >To: PRR-Talk > >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines > > > > > >List, > > > >Maybe we can settle this. > > > >First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the > >I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second > >run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the > >tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. > > > >More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more > >correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. > > > >Here's what I have so far : > > > >I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR > >loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with > >measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These > >are the dimensions at the smokebox: > > > >I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" > >K4, L1 are 82 " > > > >In measuring all the models I and others own : > > > >I1's > >Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) > >PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) > >Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc > >casting) > >PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late > >"correct" size) > >Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) > >M1's > >Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) > >Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) > >K4s/L1's > >PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) > >PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) > >PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) > >Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) > >Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) > > > >I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to > >different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small > >difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made > >directly across the smokebox front. > > > >If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe > >they could make a measurement and add to this. > > > >Regards, Tom Hayden > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:17:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) In a message dated 1/2/03 2:58:49 PM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes: << I don't own an early version of the PFM I1 but I can tell you that it was wrong. >> What constitutes an early version? My PFM United I1 measures 88 to 88.5 inches diameter depending on my shaky hands with the caliper, but I don't know what vintage it is or how to tell. BTW what are the air cylinder diameters supposed to be? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:07:48 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Bisbee, Do you know for a fact that the early PFM boilers were undersized? This is a common belief but there have been others who dispute this which is why I am asking for anyone who actually HAS one to simply measure it and let us know. We can all tell from Bowser manuals that it is it is a FACT that the early Penn-Line and Bowser I1s used the same boiler as the K4s. But, as you can see from the measurements I posted, the latest Bowser I1s boiler is actually slightly (about a scale 2") oversized. Tom At 01:36 PM 01/02/2003 -0500, bisbeelaw@cs.com wrote: >The early I-1 models from PFM used the boiler from the L-1/K-4. It was >noticeably smaller than the correct boiler. The Pennline/Bowser I-1 boiler >was also, at first, the same as their L-1/K-4 and thus too small. I don't >know whether the latest Bowser I-1 boiler is correct, though I would >imagine it is... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:35:29 -0500 PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? If anyone can help me with a photo of the correct lettering (especially loco numbering) of the "As Delivered" GP9b units your help would be very appreciated. My photos do not show the early lettering only the larger style. You can respond offline by sending to this E-mail address: prrk4s@msn.com Thanks in advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:02:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PFM I-1s From: Eugene Nowlan Only slightly helpful: according to the 1994 edition of "The Brown Book of Brass" PFM imported the following Prr Decapods 1 1967 490 1968 $70 600 1970 $90 500 1971 $100 These are the only ones listed. Peach Creek Shops has one listed for $200. They might know which year run it is and measure it or at least opinionate on the correctness. HTH, Gene Nowlan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Photos Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:02:35 -0500 Since many of the people on these lists use George Elwood's site I thought I would crosspost this message The original message is from Gerhard Stuebben.Please read. Brian Carlson > An unscrupulous person (operating under the name of "Blue Flame > Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / PRR images from George Elwood's > Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) and is selling them on CD. > > As George says: > "It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions > Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing > them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from > me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, > I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my > site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned > and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't > belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already > heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action." > > Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half of the NYC photos on that site > are from my personal collection, I am more than a little upset -- as are > contributors for other railroads. The eBay seller, who was apparently > unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed to remove them from sale: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=2152174635 > > My initial attempt to identify who is behind "Blue Flame Productions" has > been unsuccessful. If you have any leads, or should see these disks for > sale at train meets, please contact me (stuebben@flash.net) or George Elwood > (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of the seller. I am not > interested in taking action against innocent purchasers or dealers; I'm just > trying to get the illegal duplication stopped. > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > Gary Stuebben > Dayton, OH > > > > > NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION: http://www.nycshs.org/news.html > > New York Central System Historical Society Website: > www.nycshs.org > > Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada division) website: www.canadasouthern.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:34:29 -0700 Tom, I can assure you that the first run of these DID indeed have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late 1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did exist, and they are NOT rumor. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:07:48 -0500 Tom Hayden wrote: > > Bisbee, > > Do you know for a fact that the early PFM boilers were > undersized? This is a common belief but there have been > others who dispute this which is why I am asking for > anyone who actually HAS one to simply measure it and let > us know. We can all tell from Bowser manuals that it is > it is a FACT that the early Penn-Line and Bowser I1s used > the same boiler as the K4s. But, as you can see from the > measurements I posted, the latest Bowser I1s boiler is > actually slightly (about a scale 2") oversized. > > Tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:46:22 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - wire train car #495200 Hi, A while back John asked for pics of the PB70 used in wire train service inthe Harrisburg area. > > Does anyone out there have photo's or drawings of car #495200 ? It use > > to sit at the Harrisburg Station for years around the late 1970's - early > > 80's. > > I believe that it was a BP-70 combine that was converted to a MOW car. > > It also had round windows like the MP-54's on the A end of the car. B > > end ? > > Car was equipped with 6 wheel trucks and a cupola on the roof in the > > center of the car. Above the baggage end was a pantograph. > > I believe this car might have been used for wire inspection? > > Any info. would be greatly appreciated! John Caples I found the photos, and am mostly posting them for John, but perhaps others are interested. I did not write down the date the photos were taken, but it was probably mid-1990's See url's below. http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-1.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-2.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-3.jpg - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:18:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On page 36 of "Wayner Publications", "Passenger Train Consists of the = 1940's, there is a photo of the passageway side of PRR # 6707 = Baggage-Dormitory. I'd guess the photo was taken at the Sunnyside yard, = because of the industrial buildings in the background and the overhead = wire. The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. train 29 = westbound departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes = baggage-dormitory car 6707, which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit = diner with crew's quarters. George Votava photo." >From all outward appearances this looks like a lightweight car, low roof = and all, but rides on 6 wheel trucks. Here are my questions. Can anyone answer these questions or in the = alternative point me in the right direction? Question: Any history available on this car? Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the = non passageway side? Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would = like to share? Chris Baer, recently told me that Mr. Votava had passed away, the prints = sold off and the family wants max bucks for the negatives. =20 Great New Year to all !!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On page 36 of "Wayner = Publications",=20 "Passenger Train Consists of the 1940's, there is a photo of the = passageway side=20 of PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory.  I'd guess the photo was taken at = the=20 Sunnyside yard, because of the industrial buildings in the background = and the=20 overhead wire.  The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. train 29 = westbound=20 departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes baggage-dormitory car = 6707,=20 which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit diner with crew's = quarters. =20 George Votava photo."
 
From all outward = appearances this=20 looks like a lightweight car, low roof and all, but rides on 6 wheel=20 trucks.
 
Here are my = questions.  Can=20 anyone answer these questions or in the alternative point me in the = right=20 direction?
 
Question:  Any = history available=20 on this car?
 
Question:  Anyone = have the=20 window arrangement for the other side, the non passageway = side?
 
Question:  Does = anyone have=20 additional photos of this car they would like to share?
 
Chris Baer, recently = told me that Mr.=20 Votava had passed away, the prints sold off and the family wants max = bucks for=20 the negatives. 
 
Great New Year to all=20 !!!
 
All the best to you and = yours       = Weldon
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:26:16 -0500 Harry: On page 220 of Pennsy Power II, there is a photo of GP9B # 7198B. The photo credit is General Motors. Looks like a brand spanking new paint job. I'd be happy to scan it, or copy and mail it to you. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? > PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? > > If anyone can help me with a photo of the correct lettering (especially loco > numbering) of the "As Delivered" GP9b units your help would be very > appreciated. My photos do not show the early lettering only the larger > style. > > You can respond offline by sending to this E-mail address: prrk4s@msn.com > > > Thanks in advance, > > Harry Fitch > prrk4s@msn.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:40:55 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve Evanthought the curve is closed, is it possible to walk up the steps? If the lot is closed, where could I park, roadside? Will my car be disturbed parking along roadside? Is the museum open during all this commotion with the changing of the guard? I plan to visit the museum and the curve on my way to see Punxsutawney Phil. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:08:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > Question: Any history available on this car? The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo. Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train. There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708. There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981]. The car was PRR class PBD70A. Here is a link to the elevation and end view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70a.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan. > > Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment. you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though. > > Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like > to share? > --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes:

Question:  Any history available on this car?


The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo.  Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train.  There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708.  There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981].  The car was PRR class PBD70A.  Here is a link to the elevation and end view:  http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70a.gif&sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=
Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car:  http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif&sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=

The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan.

 
Question:  Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non passageway side?


Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment.  you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though.

 
Question:  Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like to share?


 --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:20:39 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I1sa front air tank diameters Hello list, Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the I1s/I1sa class front air tanks. I'm about 4500 miles from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc. MR Cyclopedia Vol 1 page 59 has plans of the I1s/I1sa. According to this plan, the front air tanks measure 30" in diameter. I also took a look at my Bowser I1sa. It has Cary front air tanks (part 13-156)that measure 32" in diameter. The original Bowser air tanks (part 603) measure 35 or 36". Assuming the MR plan is accurate, the Cary front air tanks are closer to prototype size. Anyone closer to the 4483, please chime in...grin! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:45:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa front air tank diameters --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/03 7:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: > Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the > I1s/I1sa class front air tanks. I'm about 4500 miles > from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc. > Hi Doug. Bob, and others, "The Keystone" Vol. 1, No.2 lists the dimensions of the I1s tanks on the pilot deck as 32-5/8"x 3'3". Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/03 7:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes:

Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the
I1s/I1sa class front air tanks.  I'm about 4500 miles
from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc.


Hi Doug. Bob, and others,

"The Keystone" Vol. 1, No.2 lists the dimensions of the I1s tanks on the pilot deck as 32-5/8"x 3'3".

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:45:27 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Hello list, Seconding someone else's good idea, let's hear about your favorite PRR models. I have two; both are K4s engines, albeit in different scales. I have an HO Bachmann/Bowser hybrid model of K4s 1361 that is now nearly all Bowser (the boiler is Bachmann, but the mechanism and tender are courtesy of the folks in Montoursville, PA). This engine was part of the first run of Bachmann K4s engines that arrived early in 1989, and it was the first PRR passenger engine I acquired. I also have an MTH Rail King K4s with sound that fulfills a childhood wish for a tinplate PRR engine that runs well. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:31:04 -0500 List, My favorite PRR models, all N scale, are 1. the PRR H3 I modified from an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0, 2. The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab, 3. the PRR B6sb modified from a MiniTrix 0-6-0 superdetailed and tender pickup added, 4. the PRR L1s modified from a Rivarossi 2-8-2 and Minitrix boiler. I could go on. I still have a Kato-GHQ L1s to complete, along with a MiniTrix I1s to modify, and have another MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 coming from eBay. These are marvelous runners, by the way. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models > Hello list, > > Seconding someone else's good idea, let's hear about > your favorite PRR models. > > I have two; both are K4s engines, albeit in different > scales. > > I have an HO Bachmann/Bowser hybrid model of K4s 1361 > that is now nearly all Bowser (the boiler is Bachmann, > but the mechanism and tender are courtesy of the folks > in Montoursville, PA). This engine was part of the > first run of Bachmann K4s engines that arrived early > in 1989, and it was the first PRR passenger engine I > acquired. > > I also have an MTH Rail King K4s with sound that > fulfills a childhood wish for a tinplate PRR engine > that runs well. > > Doug > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] RE: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:10:37 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" George, Send an email to safeharbor@ebay.com. They should investigate and will suspend sellers for infractions such as this. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:03 PM To: PRR Talk; EL LIST; PRR Fax Cc: stmfc@yahoogroups.