From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 08:51:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List. I am thinning out some double items so I have the following items for sale. Please contact me off list using the above subject please for further information. The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - The History of the Floods of March,1936 & January,1937 by Chas. W. Garrett. 154pgs. Excellent Cond. with some slight wear to top edge of rear cover near spine (from being in a tight shelf) and at front corner. Loads of great pictures and maps of weather information leading to the flood. Name of original owner inside front cover with Sept.15,1937 date. PRR CT1000E-May1,1945. Pages 129-158 have a notch cut out for easier referencing Phila. Div. Most likely from a former Phila. Div. employee. Book in excellent condition. Two Atlas N-scale PRR SD35,#6025 & #6018. New,never run. Would like to sell together. Two Atlas Great Northern FA1. Both powered. New older stock. I never ran them and I don't think they were ever run before I bought them as I got them a few years after they came out. Project cancelled. Thanks. Happy New Year to everyone. Pat McKinney --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List.
               I am thinning out some double items so I have the following
items for sale. Please contact me off list using the above subject please
for further information.

The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - The History of the Floods of March,1936
  & January,1937 by Chas. W. Garrett. 154pgs. Excellent Cond. with some
  slight wear to top edge of rear cover near spine (from being in a tight shelf)
  and at front corner. Loads of great pictures and maps of weather information
  leading to the flood. Name of original owner inside front cover with
  Sept.15,1937 date.

PRR CT1000E-May1,1945. Pages 129-158 have a notch cut out for easier
  referencing Phila. Div. Most likely from a former Phila. Div. employee. Book
  in excellent condition.

Two Atlas N-scale PRR SD35,#6025 & #6018. New,never run. Would like to
  sell together.

Two Atlas Great Northern FA1. Both powered. New older stock. I never ran
  them and I don't think they were ever run before I bought them as I got
  them a few years after they came out. Project cancelled.

Thanks. Happy New Year to everyone.

Pat McKinney

   --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Item For Sale Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:50:39 -0500 Group, I have an older Dremmel Drill press for sale I doen't fit my Dremmel. The throat is 1 3/4" If anybody is interested feel free to e-mail me direct at svastano@hotmail.com I am open to any offer. It will not work for me at all. The condition is good. Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:14:00 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Middle Division Michael, Would you be more specific as to the location of these screenshots? I was unsuccessful in a search of the forum sections, as well as other places. Thanks, and Happy New Year, Steve Bartlett Michael DiMaio wrote: I know where it is.. ... There are screen shots available in the fora at http://www.train- sim.com ... Michael DiMaio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Inventory Blow-Out Sale Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:47:16 -0500 The tax man cometh so the inventory must goeth. Items to be sold at 40-50% off MSRP's and I am offering items to listmember before my general mailing goes out. To view list please go to www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/saleitems.doc Happy hunting. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Repacked Dates Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:35:55 -0700 Bill, Repacking of journal bearings was usually done on a 24 month cycle. The process was that the journal box was jacked up under the cellar and the packing material underneath the journal bearing, (cotton waste or more likely later on a specially developed pad, unofficially refered to as a "Kotex") would be removed and replaced. The bearing surfaces would be inspected for damage. The axle would then be dropped while the new packing material would then be oiled. This was done on all eight (for most cars) journal boxes and the car would be restenciled to reflect the maintenance performed. Most cars were checked for oil on a almost daily basis...car knockers would carry a can of oil while inspecting inbound trains at a yard, lift the cover and add oil if needed. The pad was developed due to the fact that sometimes due to hard coupling the bearing would lift off the journal surface on the axle and a string of waste sometimes would get lodged under the babbit metal. This would lead to oil starvation on the bearing (the oil would form a wedge and be the actual load carrying surface on which the load was carried) would "wipe" causing bearing failure (hotbox). Another cause of bearing failure was the fact that bums and transients would remove the waste to use to start fires at night. Interestingly enough, most of the time at speeds greater than 15 mph, a conventional journal bearing had the same rolling resistance as a roller bearing. But the higher maintenance requirements, constant oil leakage on the face of the wheels (ever notice that all wheel faces on conventional bearing eqipped cars were dead black?) and cold weather resistance (due to higher oil viscosities in cold weather) at low speeds (as well as the other points mentioned above) led to the eventual banning of conventional bearings in railroad use. However, they are still used today in many applications. Please note that I do NOT refer to these bearings as "friction" bearings (there ain't no such thing) This was a slander that was due to the direct advertising efforts of the Timken Company to bad mouth these bearings. I once met a engineer who worked for Timken and he confirmed that this was the case. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 Bill Lane wrote: > Hi All, > > If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would > it be out on the > road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply > adding oil, or > disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does > the type of car make > a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the > main question is, > what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to > it's first painted > repacked date? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:41:32 -0600 Pofoff stainless steel grills may not be solvable for all conditions. Stainless steel expands and contracts at a different rate with respect to temperature than plastic, so the grill may fit at one condition, but not the other. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 6:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 12/31/02 3:13:22 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I can't tell you about brass, but the Athearn Genesis F-7s have to be either the best or right up there. >> Once you remove the extra horn and do something (don't know what, yet) about the mediocre mechanism. But on the bright side, the colors are right and the shell casting is great. BTW, they still haven't solved the problem of the popoff stainless grilles, but I can't fault them for that---no one else has, either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:18:42 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Exciting News --=====================_130421486==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed During the holidays I had the opportunity to view the masters for a new line of Pennsy structures. Most of these will be released in N scale through G scale. Estimated release dates should be starting in the spring 2003. Keep watch for the releases at www.trainstuffllc.com. Randy Williamson --=====================_130421486==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

During the holidays I had the opportunity to view the masters for a new line of Pennsy structures.  Most of these will be released in N scale through G scale.  Estimated release dates should be starting in the spring 2003.  Keep watch for the releases at www.trainstuffllc.com.

Randy Williamson --=====================_130421486==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy F7 Stainless Grills Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:47:11 -0500 I've had better results by using 3M spray adhesive. It remains flexible and sticky. The trick is applying it without getting it all over everything. I take the grills and clean them, then lay them on a sheet of newspaper, outdoors. I spray the back side (side to be attached to the model) lightly and evenly. Then, I lay it against the model and press gently. Spray should be just enough that it doesn't begin to fill up the openings in the grill. If you do apply too much adhesive, remove it with lacquer thinner and try it again. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Hello Bob & list...... You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre mechanism". What don't you like about the mech? I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just curious. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates List, Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:43:43 -0500 Gary, Those would be either the Baldwin or Lima "transfer" units with two prime movers and a center cab, classes BS24 and LS25, both were built starting in 1951. PRR 5683 was the last locomotive built by Lima. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates > List, > > Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After > learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was > attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. > This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 > unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos > represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did > they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:43:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Gregg, I thought of those locos also but PP2 says those locos were 2500 HP, not 2000 HP. Maybe the PRR never built the 7 2 unit 2000 HP locos? .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:02:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Exciting News --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J tower end of 2002??? Anyone got photos of the prototype or some info on the time period and so forth. I need more info! :) I will have to sell all my other kits for PRR specific stuff! :) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J tower end of 2002???  Anyone got photos of the prototype or some info on the time period and so forth.  I need more info! :)  I will have to sell all my other kits for PRR specific stuff! :)


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates List, Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Hess" Subject: [PRR] Worst PRR Models Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:59:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, =20 There has been a thread about the worst PRR models. What can you tell me about the Mantua PRR 0-4-0 switcher with the slope = back tender. Does this resemble anything that PRR ever had and if so = what road number was assigned? Thanks, Bob Hess ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

List,   
    There has been a = thread about=20 the worst PRR models.
What can you tell me about the Mantua = PRR 0-4-0=20 switcher with the slope back tender.  Does this resemble anything = that PRR=20 ever had and if so what road number was assigned?
Thanks,
 
Bob Hess
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:01:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Worst PRR Models --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are obviously just a youngster - in the 1960's Aristo - Craft sold european steam locos, complete with red plastic driver centers - as PRR, once tried to file a pair of them, purchase "two fer" into G-5's but they were just incredibly poor. If the Mantua 0-4-0 bothered you, you could always buy an English plastic A-5, less a motor, for 99 cents. A-5 boiler actually looked better on the Mantua "big six" chassis as a B-6. --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit     You are obviously just a youngster - in the 1960's Aristo - Craft sold european steam locos, complete with red plastic driver centers - as PRR, once tried to file a pair of them, purchase "two fer" into G-5's but they were just incredibly poor.
    If the Mantua 0-4-0 bothered you, you could always buy an English plastic A-5, less a motor, for 99 cents. A-5 boiler actually looked better on the Mantua "big six" chassis as a B-6.

 --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:27:39 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - IHC Pass. Cars From: Beth Caples Is the smooth side observation car that IHC CURRENTLY OFFERS the same as the PRR's Tower Series Car with the flat tail end? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 09:56:14 -0800 Good luck getting the signals to work properly on TS. I spent quite a bit of time trying to get the NEC signals right and finally gave up. When I was still employed by Uncle Bill, I tried my best to offer help to the TrainSim team when the product was still under development, but they weren't at all interested. The primary problem is that the signal API (application programming interface) is geared towards route signaling and not speed signaling like the PRR used. Route signaling is where the indication informs the engineer which route is selected and the engineer travels at the proper speed. Speed signaling tells the engineer what speed to go with no information about what route is selected. The intermediate signals were workable, but the scripting language was simply not robust enough to properly calculate interlocking signal indications in anything but the simplest of situations. The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the cabsignal. On the NEC simulation, you can fly past a clear signal at full speed, only to get an overspeed penalty brake application, because the cabsignal changed in anticipation of the next signal. John -----Original Message----- From: mdimaio@ids.net To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, December 30, 2002 5:10 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Middle Division Currently, the last task to be done is to complete the installation of signals. Currently the signals reach from Harrisburg to Lewistown. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:10:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division John Cooper wrote: "The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the cabsignal." But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. No? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:23:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. Absolutely NOT, cab signals carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by, NOT the signal ahead. Al --Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Re: But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet.
 
 
Absolutely NOT, cab signals carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by, NOT the signal ahead.
 
Al

 
--Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:22:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab signals should change to "approach". Right? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:36:04 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Dave said, "I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab signals should change to "approach". Right?" No Dave that's not correct, you carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until to get to the next signal. If you go by a "clear" the cab stays "clear" also until the next signal. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:47:22 -0700 Dave and all, I have no idea what this means...I own a three unit set of these in PRR and they are some of the finest drives I have ever run. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Bob & list...... > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre > mechanism". What > don't you like about the mech? > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just > curious. > > Dave Hopson > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:08:43 -0500 I own an A-A-B-A set of F's and I think that the drive surpasses the Kato drives for F-units. I am thinking of buying another A-B set. Go ahead and buy your set! That is my recommendation. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units > Dave and all, > > I have no idea what this means...I own a three unit set of > these in PRR and they are some of the finest drives I have > ever run. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) > zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Hello Bob & list...... > > > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre > > mechanism". What > > don't you like about the mech? > > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just > > curious. > > > > Dave Hopson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Thanks Ted, I've got a bunch of emails about how great they are. "Just as good as Kato drives" sounds good to me. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:31:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division 0100,0100,0100OK, I agree with John and Al now, the cab signal agrees with the signal the engine has just passed. I just spent some time with the rule book, and now I understand how it all is supposed to work: the cab signal conforms with the fixed signal shortly after passing the fixed signal; if conditions improve subsequently, the cab signal will display a more favorable indication, which then governs; or if something goes wrong (like a train running a signal and entering your block) the cab signal will show Restricting, which the engineman must be governed by. And if the cab signal does not conform with the signal just passed, it's an irregular condition that must be reported; if the cab signal gave a more favorable indication, in fact, the engine is to be taken out of service for inspection on arrival at the terminal. You learn something every day! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:08:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units In a message dated 1/1/03 12:45:39 PM Central Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << What don't you like about the mech? >> It is noisy. I have had two of the (quite thin, in my opinion underdesigned) dogbones out of 6 fracture. One of the truck assemblies was falling apart when I got it and works now, but is shaky. It is better than 75 percent of the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I don't have a new Kato to compare). I only made my remarks because I questioned calling it one of the best PRR locos made. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:27:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units In a message dated 1/1/03 8:13:17 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: << It is better than 75 percent of the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I don't have a new Kato to compare) >> Just to clarify, I am referring to the mechanism. The shell is probably better than all of the locos of 25 years ago . Again, it is not my intent to bash Athearn, though I have considered making up an aftermarket metal dogbone for the units. IMO, the new Stewart F mechanism is better. Haven't ever run an Intermountain unit, so can't comment. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Newspaper article on Altoona Railroaders Museum While looking for something else, I found: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_108419.html ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > It is noisy. I have had two of the (quite thin, in my opinion underdesigned) > dogbones out of 6 fracture. One of the truck assemblies was falling apart > when I got it and works now, but is shaky. It is better than 75 percent of > the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I > don't have a new Kato to compare). I only made my remarks because I > questioned calling it one of the best PRR locos made. I haven't run mine. If that happens to mine, I still stick with my choice, because I can easily replace drive components; Detailing and repainting a body is considerably harder. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:28:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Train-Sim Signals for the Middle Division As the one who has had the most experioence with PRR position light signals on the Mid Div within the sim, I thoughjtI would jump into the discussion (I installed 135 miles worth of them). First, no one really understands how signals work in MSTS. Mike Vone one of the two two deans of route design says as much in his standard work on route building. KUJU (the programers of MSTS) have never explained how they work. No one who designs a route expects them or should expect them to behave like those in the real world (pace the views ofd mygood friend Hank Sundermeyer aka the Signalmaster). Richard Garber, the other dean of route building and who has written the standard work on MSTS activity design, says the signals serve the function of flow control. That is to say, to keep ai trains (those controled by the computer) from being stalemated with the player's train. This means that a route designer has to optimize the signals to keep traffic moving, even if it means not following the prototype. I have attempted to follow the prototype and it may well cause problems with ai trains. Ill know in a day or two. Nore later! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:04:00 EST Subject: [PRR] And the answer is -- Lines West roundhouse, probably not --part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick??????? > ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan > To: 'Earl Myers' > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse > > > > Earl, > > There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to > certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think > friend Rick Tipton may have the answer. > > Al > > -----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse Al; I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened. Earl Myers >> Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question. This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book. Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses. Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana. Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been. Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air. I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes. OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)... <> And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea: << Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson >> I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design. The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes:


Rick???????
----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan
To: 'Earl Myers'
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse



Earl,

There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think friend Rick Tipton may have the answer.

Al


-----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM
To: Al Buchan
Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse


Al;
 I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened.
Earl Myers

>>

Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question.  This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book.

Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses.  Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana.  Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been.

Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air.  I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes.

OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)...

<<Re: PRR Crestline, Ohio roundhouse
From: John Amstrong "mjjarm@earthlink.net"
Category: General Questions
Date: 9/29/99
Time: 10:24:33 PM
Remote Name: 63.22.175.39
Comments
Th roundhuse was built by the Austin Co of Cleveland Ohio. I produced the models used in Th Austin FORTUNE Magazine ads for 13 years. The hadphotos but would not allow me to copy or use them. They built EMD's La Grange plant. Loaned the photos to the party who wrote the Trains article on EMD, and never saw the photos again. No one had access to anything after that. The photos showed USRA locos on the turntable>>

And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea:

<< Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures
From: "Bob Johnson" <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400

Greg and List,

I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with
considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were
actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any
other railroad build them?

Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I
found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no
reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western
Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477".
Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20,
1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to
get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA
designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design.

The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls:
Stark E.H., Canton - 30
Crestline E.H. - 30
Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?]
Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15
Jeffersonville E.H. - 15
Scully E.H. - 34

The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's
no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another
source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and
Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received
this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets
of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design,
instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of
drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for
Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to
the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32
stalls for a full circle.

Bob Johnson
>>

I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design.  The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. 

Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off).
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:29:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any given signal governs the track that lays beyond it. Therefore, at = any given time, the engineer is always complying with the rules of the = last signal he's seen. The cabsignals have the same amount of authority = to govern as do any wayside signal the engineer could look at. The = cabsignals are not merely an aide or convenience. Because they have the = same amount of authority, naturally there must be agreement between the = cabsignals and the wayside in terms of what the engineer is required to = do. Therefore the cabsignal must agree with the last signal passed. So for example, if an engineer passes an approach indication and has = come upon a stop signal, it is not the stop signal ahead of him that is = governing his movement (or lack thereof). Even when he is stopped in = front of the stop signal, he is still governed by the previous = "approach" which says: "Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal". = He is free to proceed forward anywhere in the block. The only thing he = can't do is pass the stop signal. As odd as it may seem, the cabsignals = will display approach when a train is stopped in front of a stop signal. = (There is an exception which I'll cover below) Walk to the front and = look in the window of an eastbound on the upper level of 30th st, or = westbound in Suburban station to see for yourself. =20 Likewise, if an engineer is viewing an approach signal, he need not = touch the brake until he passes it. The previous signal governs until = then. Thus the cabsignals will stay "clear" until the train passes the = "approach". The braking distances are calculated with this in mind when = the signal system is being designed. (There was actually much debate in = the PC days after the merger among rules examiners, because the NYC = believed the engineer was to react as soon as he saw the signal).=20 =20 There are a couple of exceptions to when the cabsignals don't agree with = the last signal. Because it is somewhat strange to have an approach on = the cabsignals when stopped at a stop signal, they implemented "code = change points" at interlockings. This was a point somewhere before an = interlocking home signal where the cabsignals would change to = restricting if the home signal was displaying stop, stop and proceed, or = restricting. The location of this point is usually clearly documented = on interlocking diagrams. The station tracks at 30th st and Suburban = station don't have code change points which is why I suggest them as = examples. =20 The other exception is after having crossed over and leaving the limits = of an interlocking. If the train crossed over on a "medium clear", that = rule says to proceed at medium speed within interlocking limits. = Outside interlocking limits, there is no speed restriction. In this = case, the cabsignal will display "approach medium" to conform (as best = it can) to the medium clear. At end of interlocking limits, the = cabsignal will return to "clear". =20 John =20 -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division John Cooper wrote: =20 =20 "The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed = to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the = cabsignal." =20 But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they = display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are = passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you = can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the = approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. =20 No? =20 John Bobsin =20 =20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any given signal governs the track that lays beyond = it. =20 Therefore, at any given time, the engineer is always complying with the = rules of=20 the last signal he's seen.  The cabsignals = have the=20 same amount of authority to govern as do any wayside signal the engineer = could=20 look at.  The cabsignals are not merely an aide or = convenience. =20 Because they have the same amount of authority, naturally there must be=20 agreement between the cabsignals and the wayside in terms of what the = engineer=20 is required to do.  Therefore the cabsignal must agree with the = last signal=20 passed.
 
So for example, if an engineer passes an approach = indication=20 and has come upon a stop signal, it is not the stop signal ahead of him = that is=20 governing his movement (or lack thereof).  Even when he is stopped = in front=20 of the stop signal, he is still governed by the previous = "approach"=20 which says: "Proceed prepared to stop at the next = signal".  He is=20 free to proceed forward anywhere in the block.  The only thing he = can't do=20 is pass the stop signal.  As odd as it may seem, the cabsignals = will=20 display approach when a train is stopped in front of a stop = signal.  (There=20 is an exception which I'll cover below)  Walk to the front and look = in the=20 window of an eastbound on the upper level of 30th st, or westbound in = Suburban=20 station to see for yourself.
 
Likewise, if an engineer is viewing an approach = signal, he=20 need not touch the brake until he passes it.  The previous signal = governs=20 until then.  Thus the cabsignals will stay "clear" until = the=20 train passes the "approach".  The braking distances are=20 calculated with this in mind when the signal system is being = designed. =20 (There was actually much debate in the PC days after the merger among = rules=20 examiners, because the NYC believed the engineer was to react as soon as = he saw=20 the signal). 
 
There are a couple of exceptions to when the = cabsignals don't=20 agree with the last signal.  Because it is somewhat strange to have = an=20 approach on the cabsignals when stopped at a stop signal, they = implemented=20 "code change points" at interlockings.  This was a point=20 somewhere before an interlocking home signal where the cabsignals would = change=20 to restricting if the home signal was displaying stop, stop and proceed, = or=20 restricting.  The location of this point is usually clearly = documented on=20 interlocking diagrams.  The station tracks at 30th st and Suburban = station=20 don't have code change points which is why I suggest them as=20 examples.
 
The other exception is after having crossed over and = leaving=20 the limits of an interlocking.  If the train crossed over on a = "medium=20 clear", that rule says to proceed at medium speed within = interlocking=20 limits.  Outside interlocking limits, there is no speed = restriction. =20 In this case, the cabsignal will display "approach medium" to = conform=20 (as best it can) to the medium clear.  At end of interlocking = limits, the=20 cabsignal will return to "clear".
 
John
 
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 bobsin@nac.net <bobsin@nac.net>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = TrainSim=20 signals Was: PRR Middle Division

John=20 Cooper wrote:


"The second problem is with the cab = signals.=20 In train sim, the cab
signal reflects the next signal ahead of = the train.=20 It is supposed to
reflect the last signal the train has passed. = This of=20 course totally
messes up any speed enforcement that is associated = with=20 the cabsignal."

But isn't this the way real cab signals = work? I=20 always thought they display an indication that reflects the next = signal=20 ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next = signal=20 is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal = yet, the=20 cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal = you=20 can't see yet.

No?

John = Bobsin


--------------------------------------------------=

---------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates (explained) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:35:53 -0500 The repacked (required) date varied over the years depending upon the type of bearings and the lubricating pads. The AAR published requirements each year and it was up to the railroad moving the car to note the last repack date and if the car was overdate, they would shop it and repack it. The term "repack" goes back to the days when all cars had friction bearings and cotton waste jammed into the journal box which acted as a wick to absorb the oil and oil the bottom of the axle journal. The oil would then stick on the axle as it rotated under the friction bearing on the top of the axle. Wastepack was used exclusively in 1955 and if I remember correctly, the cars needed to be repacked (i.e. all waste removed and replaced with new and the bearing inspected or replaced) every two years. The road doing the work, then stenciled their road name, shop location and date on the car. Then then billed the owning road for the work performed at a rate set by the AAR. Around 1957 or 58 the wastepack began to be replaced by foam rubber pads that were enclosed in a layer of canvas with cotton threads covering the whole think simlar to the sponge mops we use today. There were literally hundereds of varieties of these pads and some were quickly withdrawn from the approved list because they were failure prone. At anyrate, the two years requirement for wastepack was extended to four years (as I remember it) and in the early 1960s, cotton waste was outlawed from use and a restricted number of brands of foam rubber pads were allowed. Of course the roller bearing cars had re-lube requirements as well and the railroads followed the same pattern. Stencil the date re-lubed and bill the car owner. Towards the end of the friction bearing era, the N&W developed the flat back bearing which spread the load over a much wider area and the Pennsy late model hopper cars had these. The 100 ton cars had roller bearings with a few of them getting the sealed "Clevite" friction bearings which had a bad track record. Hope this helps a little. Bill Volkmer (been to lots of wrecks with failed journal bearings as the culprit) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lane Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 11:12 AM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:44:08 -0500 List: The only problem I've had with the Genesis locos is the electrical pickup. The electrical pickup is transferred from the wheel axles to brass plates located inside the plastic frames. This is fine except that the brass plates are NOT a bearing surface, so the power continuity can be momentarily lost. This is a problem on DCC as it will cause the locos to stop momentarily. This is a nuisance. I've corrected this by running jumper wires between all three locos in consist. This will almost guarantee that you'll never lose power to the decoders. Since adding these jumpers, I've had no problems with the Genesis and consider them to be some of the finest locos I own. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 1:45 PM Subject: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units > Hello Bob & list...... > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre mechanism". What > don't you like about the mech? > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just curious. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:06:18 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - IHC Pass. Cars Beth, No, the current IHC obs is a boat tail car. I have been told that the prototype for the current IHC streamlined cars are SF and Southern. Presumably some smoothside SF cars and some PS fluted Southern prototypes were chosen and then each kind was done in both smooth side and fluted. So half the cars have no prototype at all! Then they painted the cars, the prototype SF cars the prototype Southern Cars, and those with no prototype at all, for every RR they thought might sell. The cars also were made with Budd ends As an aside, the Southern prototype cars are reasonable, if you shave the Budd stuff off the ends, remove the oversize window frames, and replace the trucks. I rebuilt several coaches, a diner, and a combine (all Southern prototypes) for a Birmingham Special to run behind a GG-1. Of all the Southern connections which ran on the corridor, I chose the Birmingham Special because it was one of the few trains which carried the obscure Pullman which Bachmann produces. I had to find some use for that car! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Beth Caples wrote: > Is the smooth side observation car that IHC CURRENTLY OFFERS the same > as the PRR's Tower Series Car with the flat tail end? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:53:03 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum The temporary board of directors got Mr. Cessna to come in & clean up the mess at the museum. Maybe I'm missing something from the article but now, whoever, wants the life members to give up their voting rights for new people to stand for election to a new board of directors to confirm/oversee Mr. Cessna's actions. Instead, the lifers will be given a pat on the back and told, "Yeah, your $ were blown. Now, please go away. We are in charge, have different plans, and you will mess up the operation." What was not defined in the article:- 1) who elects the new ARM board of directors; 2) who is allowed to run for the new BoD; 3) who is this new organization which appears as the white knight - will they and their BoD really be in charge. They are able to run the ARM cheaper/efficiently? how? What is wrong with electing a new ARM BoD? They are placing a lot emphasis on bylaw changes or electing a new director - that is the skunk stink in the woodpile. Most organizations have a mechanism to appoint a director until the next election occurs. And what bylaw changes so desperately need to be made? There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about the ARM's future - guess I've heard one too many, "Trust us; we're in charge now - go away but still send $." Someone has found an 'Ivory Tower' in need of renovation and control - my nasty ole perspective. -=- Bob Colquitt another "Sweet Old Bob" > Subject: Newspaper article on Altoona Railroaders Museum > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) > > While looking for something else, I found: > > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_108419.html > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:39:01 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Listmembers, I posted this in hopes of getting additional measurements. Does anyone out there have an early PFM I1s with the supposedly smaller boiler, who can put a caliper to the smokebox front and tell us what is the diameter? My suspicion is that all the PFM I1s had the correct diameter boiler. Tom Hayden >-----Original Message----- >From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines > > >List, > >Maybe we can settle this. > >First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the >I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second >run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the >tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. > >More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more >correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. > >Here's what I have so far : > >I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR >loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with >measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These >are the dimensions at the smokebox: > >I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" >K4, L1 are 82 " > >In measuring all the models I and others own : > >I1's >Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) >PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) >Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc >casting) >PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late >"correct" size) >Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) >M1's >Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) >Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) >K4s/L1's >PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) >PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) >PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) >Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) >Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) > >I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to >different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small >difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made >directly across the smokebox front. > >If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe >they could make a measurement and add to this. > >Regards, Tom Hayden > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:15:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum In a message dated 1/2/03 10:02:51 AM, wahsatch@planetcomm.net writes: << Maybe I'm missing something from the article but now, whoever, wants the life members to give up their voting rights for new people to stand for election to a new board of directors to confirm/oversee Mr. Cessna's actions. Instead, the lifers will be given a pat on the back and told, "Yeah, your $ were blown. Now, please go away. We are in charge, have different plans, and you will mess up the operation." What was not defined in the article:- 1) who elects the new ARM board of directors; 2) who is allowed to run for the new BoD; 3) who is this new organization which appears as the white knight - will they and their BoD really be in charge. They are able to run the ARM cheaper/efficiently? how? >> I can't get through to the article but did do a Guidestar search (www.guidestar.org) & found "Railroaders Memorial Museum, Inc. Altoona, PA 16602 The mission of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum to honor railroad workers and their significant contributions to the culture and development of the railroad industry and to preserve this rich heritage for the education, enjoyment and enrichment of present and future generations." This is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit and has rules of governance very different from a standard corporation. Their tax return is at the Guidestar site. They have $15 million in assets ($14 in "investments") and an annual income of $1.6 million. I do a lot of volunteering to fix 501(c)(3). This much money and the salaries and perqs that go with can easily start a fight. The ED is shown as a guy named McNitt, a six year employee, IIRC. The construct of the BoD and who has power is a function of the by laws (not posted). But, "life" members may not have a vote. Directors can serve for a fixed period (we suggest not more than 3 terms of 2 years each) with elections staggered. After the six years, a loyal & interested director goes o n an "advisory" board. This is probably the "life" board. They have no vote but are carried on the letterhead. Warning - YMMV. Anyone interested should contact the museum directly and ask for a copy of the by laws, the state charter, and the 990s (IRS tax forms) for the past three years. All are, I believe, public records under federal law. A modest copying fee may be charged and all should be available, on demand, for personal inspection at the museum's primary business location. Regards, Marty   ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:33:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum The plot has moved on: "ALTOONA: Members give up voting Life members of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum have agreed to give up their voting rights as the financially troubled museum struggles to overcome its debts. The 800 life members had the power to vote on bylaw changes and elect board members, but otherwise did not run daily operations. The members voted 54-29 Saturday to give up their rights. Usually, fewer than 50 members attended annual meetings and some time ago, a quorum was reduced to 25. Scott Cessna, executive director of the museum, said answering to 800 members was too cumbersome and that streamlining would help the museum. In place of the life members, a nine member board will decide museum matters. Dick Charlesworth, a board member since 1975, likened the move to the voters of Pennsylvania giving the General Assembly the right to become self-perpetuating. Harley Burket, a life member, said while the change might be a step backward from a democratic ideal, the members hardly have a right to squawk because so few participated. The life members, most of whom paid $100 or $500, still will get perks such as free museum access and discounts. The museum has been hailed as a model for transit museums. It's on the site of what had been the largest factory for the Pennsylvania Railroad But in the spring, it found itself about $750,000 in debt. That's been pared to about $200,000 since a crisis management team took control. The new board will now consider whether to enter into a management agreement with Westsylvania Heritage Corp., which conserves and promotes heritage assets in the Altoona region. That could take place next month, Cessna said. The idea is for the museum to begin acting like a for-profit organization and become less reliant on government grants and more self-sustaining, Cessna said." Source: http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_east/20021223eburbp9.asp Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:04:00 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] And the answer is -- Lines West roundhouse, probably not USRA roundhouse In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick??????? > ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan > To: 'Earl Myers' > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse > > > > Earl, > > There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to > certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think > friend Rick Tipton may have the answer. > > Al > > -----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse Al; I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened. Earl Myers >> Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question. This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book. Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses. Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana. Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been. Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air. I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes. OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)... <> And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea: << Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson >> I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design. The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:36:36 -0500 From: bisbeelaw@cs.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) The early I-1 models from PFM used the boiler from the L-1/K-4. It was noticeably smaller than the correct boiler. The Pennline/Bowser I-1 boiler was also, at first, the same as their L-1/K-4 and thus too small. I don't know whether the latest Bowser I-1 boiler is correct, though I would imagine it is... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:52:52 -0500 Alex: Try this : http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr018.htm or these : http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr206.htm http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr212.htm -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Alex Charyna Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:21 PM To: PRR-Talk Posting Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Nice shot Ted. The Strasburg RR has a great computer wallpaper picture of #31. I'm looking for a Pennsy winter shot suitable for desktop wallpaper. Though any Pennsy snow pictures would be welcome. Please share links... (on or off list).. thanks. -alesx ----- Original Message ----- But as for the Pennsylvania, click on the following link to what I think is one of the best Pennsy-Christmas pictures ever taken. http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/contributor/scb-adams.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:51:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum In a message dated 1/2/03 10:02:51 AM, wahsatch@planetcomm.net writes: << There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about the ARM's future - guess I've heard one too many, "Trust us; we're in charge now - go away but still send $." Someone has found an 'Ivory Tower' in need of renovation and control - my nasty ole perspective. >> You've got me started. A Google search for "Scott Cessna" turned up a lot, including what looks to be the news index from a local radio station, WRTA. Source: "http://www.brianthomaswebworks.com/wrta/news2/viewnews.asp" >From this site, I culled the following: RAILROADERS MUSEUM -12/10/02 The Railroaders Memorial Museum is asking the city for help in securing 1.9 million dollars in additional funding from the government to complete the work at the museum. The city’s participation in securing the funding would not involve any outlay of any city money. ALTOONA RAILROADERS MEMORIAL MUSEUM -12/9/02 The interim executive board of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum will ask the museum’s 800 life members to relinguish their power over the organization at a meeting on December 21st. The interim board has guided the museum since the museum’s 750 thousand dollar debt became known in the spring. Members of the temporary board say the museum would be better served if a self-perpetuating executive board were apointed to run the museum. If the life members agree to vote away their power later this month, they will still retain their admission and museum-store discount privileges. RAILRAODERS MUSEUM -11/18/02 Last week, Scott Cessna was named the new Executive Director of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Cessna has been overseeing operations since the museum first appointed a special committee to save the facility from financial ruin. Cessna accepted the job, knowing that his tenure could be short with the possibility that the Westsylvania Heritage Group could take over operation of the museum. MUSEUM -11/12/02 Just one group so far has picked up information packets to make a pitch for control of the financially troubles Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, and proposals are due Friday. Scott Cessna, interim Finance Director, say it’s unlikely any other group has the time to pick up a packet and prepare a complete proposal. Westsylvania Heritage Corporation will propose intregating the museum into its ongoing mission to conserve and market the region’s heritage assets. RAILROADERS MUSEUM -10/16/02 Of all the uncertainty revolving around the Altoona Railroaders Museum, one thing appears to be clear. They need a bigger staff to promote and run the museum effectively. WRTA News spoke with the acting treasurer, Scott Cessna, who said that they are looking to have a staff of around 15 to 18 people. They currently have 10 employees. Cessna said that they are looking at two ways to do this. First, they can add staff of their own, or they can hire an outside group to run the museum. They have asked for proposals to be submitted within 30 days. RAILROADERS MUSEUM -10/15/02 It looks like the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is ready to make a management change. The Museum’s Executive Committee is looking for an outside firm, experienced with heritage and tourism, to take over the management operations. Committee Treasurer Scott Cessna says museum leadership will review proposals and then decide whether or not to turn over the day to day operations. A decision could be made by Thanksgiving. MUSEUM -10/4/02 The Altoona Railroaders Museum is hoping to have a big weekend during Railfest this Saturday and Sunday. The museum is holding a chicken barbecue at the museum Saturday. The museum, over the course of the weekend, is hoping to raise 30 thousand dollars. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:52:45 -0500 Tom: I don't own an early version of the PFM I1 but I can tell you that it was wrong. PFM used a K4 boiler on their early I1's also with undersized front air tanks. Very bad! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hayden To: PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) > Listmembers, > > I posted this in hopes of getting additional measurements. > Does anyone out there have an early PFM I1s with the supposedly smaller > boiler, who can put a caliper to the smokebox front and tell us what is the > diameter? My suspicion is that all the PFM I1s had the correct diameter > boiler. > > Tom Hayden > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM > >To: PRR-Talk > >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines > > > > > >List, > > > >Maybe we can settle this. > > > >First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the > >I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second > >run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the > >tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. > > > >More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more > >correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. > > > >Here's what I have so far : > > > >I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR > >loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with > >measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These > >are the dimensions at the smokebox: > > > >I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" > >K4, L1 are 82 " > > > >In measuring all the models I and others own : > > > >I1's > >Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) > >PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) > >Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc > >casting) > >PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late > >"correct" size) > >Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) > >M1's > >Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) > >Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) > >K4s/L1's > >PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) > >PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) > >PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) > >Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) > >Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) > > > >I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to > >different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small > >difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made > >directly across the smokebox front. > > > >If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe > >they could make a measurement and add to this. > > > >Regards, Tom Hayden > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:17:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) In a message dated 1/2/03 2:58:49 PM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes: << I don't own an early version of the PFM I1 but I can tell you that it was wrong. >> What constitutes an early version? My PFM United I1 measures 88 to 88.5 inches diameter depending on my shaky hands with the caliper, but I don't know what vintage it is or how to tell. BTW what are the air cylinder diameters supposed to be? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:07:48 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Bisbee, Do you know for a fact that the early PFM boilers were undersized? This is a common belief but there have been others who dispute this which is why I am asking for anyone who actually HAS one to simply measure it and let us know. We can all tell from Bowser manuals that it is it is a FACT that the early Penn-Line and Bowser I1s used the same boiler as the K4s. But, as you can see from the measurements I posted, the latest Bowser I1s boiler is actually slightly (about a scale 2") oversized. Tom At 01:36 PM 01/02/2003 -0500, bisbeelaw@cs.com wrote: >The early I-1 models from PFM used the boiler from the L-1/K-4. It was >noticeably smaller than the correct boiler. The Pennline/Bowser I-1 boiler >was also, at first, the same as their L-1/K-4 and thus too small. I don't >know whether the latest Bowser I-1 boiler is correct, though I would >imagine it is... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:35:29 -0500 PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? If anyone can help me with a photo of the correct lettering (especially loco numbering) of the "As Delivered" GP9b units your help would be very appreciated. My photos do not show the early lettering only the larger style. You can respond offline by sending to this E-mail address: prrk4s@msn.com Thanks in advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:02:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PFM I-1s From: Eugene Nowlan Only slightly helpful: according to the 1994 edition of "The Brown Book of Brass" PFM imported the following Prr Decapods 1 1967 490 1968 $70 600 1970 $90 500 1971 $100 These are the only ones listed. Peach Creek Shops has one listed for $200. They might know which year run it is and measure it or at least opinionate on the correctness. HTH, Gene Nowlan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Photos Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:02:35 -0500 Since many of the people on these lists use George Elwood's site I thought I would crosspost this message The original message is from Gerhard Stuebben.Please read. Brian Carlson > An unscrupulous person (operating under the name of "Blue Flame > Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / PRR images from George Elwood's > Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) and is selling them on CD. > > As George says: > "It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions > Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing > them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from > me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, > I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my > site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned > and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't > belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already > heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action." > > Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half of the NYC photos on that site > are from my personal collection, I am more than a little upset -- as are > contributors for other railroads. The eBay seller, who was apparently > unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed to remove them from sale: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=2152174635 > > My initial attempt to identify who is behind "Blue Flame Productions" has > been unsuccessful. If you have any leads, or should see these disks for > sale at train meets, please contact me (stuebben@flash.net) or George Elwood > (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of the seller. I am not > interested in taking action against innocent purchasers or dealers; I'm just > trying to get the illegal duplication stopped. > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > Gary Stuebben > Dayton, OH > > > > > NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION: http://www.nycshs.org/news.html > > New York Central System Historical Society Website: > www.nycshs.org > > Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada division) website: www.canadasouthern.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:34:29 -0700 Tom, I can assure you that the first run of these DID indeed have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late 1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did exist, and they are NOT rumor. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:07:48 -0500 Tom Hayden wrote: > > Bisbee, > > Do you know for a fact that the early PFM boilers were > undersized? This is a common belief but there have been > others who dispute this which is why I am asking for > anyone who actually HAS one to simply measure it and let > us know. We can all tell from Bowser manuals that it is > it is a FACT that the early Penn-Line and Bowser I1s used > the same boiler as the K4s. But, as you can see from the > measurements I posted, the latest Bowser I1s boiler is > actually slightly (about a scale 2") oversized. > > Tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:46:22 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - wire train car #495200 Hi, A while back John asked for pics of the PB70 used in wire train service inthe Harrisburg area. > > Does anyone out there have photo's or drawings of car #495200 ? It use > > to sit at the Harrisburg Station for years around the late 1970's - early > > 80's. > > I believe that it was a BP-70 combine that was converted to a MOW car. > > It also had round windows like the MP-54's on the A end of the car. B > > end ? > > Car was equipped with 6 wheel trucks and a cupola on the roof in the > > center of the car. Above the baggage end was a pantograph. > > I believe this car might have been used for wire inspection? > > Any info. would be greatly appreciated! John Caples I found the photos, and am mostly posting them for John, but perhaps others are interested. I did not write down the date the photos were taken, but it was probably mid-1990's See url's below. http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-1.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-2.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-3.jpg - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:18:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On page 36 of "Wayner Publications", "Passenger Train Consists of the = 1940's, there is a photo of the passageway side of PRR # 6707 = Baggage-Dormitory. I'd guess the photo was taken at the Sunnyside yard, = because of the industrial buildings in the background and the overhead = wire. The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. train 29 = westbound departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes = baggage-dormitory car 6707, which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit = diner with crew's quarters. George Votava photo." >From all outward appearances this looks like a lightweight car, low roof = and all, but rides on 6 wheel trucks. Here are my questions. Can anyone answer these questions or in the = alternative point me in the right direction? Question: Any history available on this car? Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the = non passageway side? Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would = like to share? Chris Baer, recently told me that Mr. Votava had passed away, the prints = sold off and the family wants max bucks for the negatives. =20 Great New Year to all !!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On page 36 of "Wayner = Publications",=20 "Passenger Train Consists of the 1940's, there is a photo of the = passageway side=20 of PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory.  I'd guess the photo was taken at = the=20 Sunnyside yard, because of the industrial buildings in the background = and the=20 overhead wire.  The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. train 29 = westbound=20 departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes baggage-dormitory car = 6707,=20 which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit diner with crew's = quarters. =20 George Votava photo."
 
From all outward = appearances this=20 looks like a lightweight car, low roof and all, but rides on 6 wheel=20 trucks.
 
Here are my = questions.  Can=20 anyone answer these questions or in the alternative point me in the = right=20 direction?
 
Question:  Any = history available=20 on this car?
 
Question:  Anyone = have the=20 window arrangement for the other side, the non passageway = side?
 
Question:  Does = anyone have=20 additional photos of this car they would like to share?
 
Chris Baer, recently = told me that Mr.=20 Votava had passed away, the prints sold off and the family wants max = bucks for=20 the negatives. 
 
Great New Year to all=20 !!!
 
All the best to you and = yours       = Weldon
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:26:16 -0500 Harry: On page 220 of Pennsy Power II, there is a photo of GP9B # 7198B. The photo credit is General Motors. Looks like a brand spanking new paint job. I'd be happy to scan it, or copy and mail it to you. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? > PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? > > If anyone can help me with a photo of the correct lettering (especially loco > numbering) of the "As Delivered" GP9b units your help would be very > appreciated. My photos do not show the early lettering only the larger > style. > > You can respond offline by sending to this E-mail address: prrk4s@msn.com > > > Thanks in advance, > > Harry Fitch > prrk4s@msn.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:40:55 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve Evanthought the curve is closed, is it possible to walk up the steps? If the lot is closed, where could I park, roadside? Will my car be disturbed parking along roadside? Is the museum open during all this commotion with the changing of the guard? I plan to visit the museum and the curve on my way to see Punxsutawney Phil. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:08:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > Question: Any history available on this car? The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo. Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train. There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708. There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981]. The car was PRR class PBD70A. Here is a link to the elevation and end view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70a.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan. > > Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment. you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though. > > Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like > to share? > --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes:

Question:  Any history available on this car?


The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo.  Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train.  There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708.  There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981].  The car was PRR class PBD70A.  Here is a link to the elevation and end view:  http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70a.gif&sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=
Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car:  http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif&sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=

The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan.

 
Question:  Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non passageway side?


Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment.  you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though.

 
Question:  Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like to share?


 --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:20:39 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I1sa front air tank diameters Hello list, Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the I1s/I1sa class front air tanks. I'm about 4500 miles from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc. MR Cyclopedia Vol 1 page 59 has plans of the I1s/I1sa. According to this plan, the front air tanks measure 30" in diameter. I also took a look at my Bowser I1sa. It has Cary front air tanks (part 13-156)that measure 32" in diameter. The original Bowser air tanks (part 603) measure 35 or 36". Assuming the MR plan is accurate, the Cary front air tanks are closer to prototype size. Anyone closer to the 4483, please chime in...grin! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:45:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa front air tank diameters --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/03 7:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: > Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the > I1s/I1sa class front air tanks. I'm about 4500 miles > from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc. > Hi Doug. Bob, and others, "The Keystone" Vol. 1, No.2 lists the dimensions of the I1s tanks on the pilot deck as 32-5/8"x 3'3". Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/03 7:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes:

Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the
I1s/I1sa class front air tanks.  I'm about 4500 miles
from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc.


Hi Doug. Bob, and others,

"The Keystone" Vol. 1, No.2 lists the dimensions of the I1s tanks on the pilot deck as 32-5/8"x 3'3".

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:45:27 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Hello list, Seconding someone else's good idea, let's hear about your favorite PRR models. I have two; both are K4s engines, albeit in different scales. I have an HO Bachmann/Bowser hybrid model of K4s 1361 that is now nearly all Bowser (the boiler is Bachmann, but the mechanism and tender are courtesy of the folks in Montoursville, PA). This engine was part of the first run of Bachmann K4s engines that arrived early in 1989, and it was the first PRR passenger engine I acquired. I also have an MTH Rail King K4s with sound that fulfills a childhood wish for a tinplate PRR engine that runs well. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:31:04 -0500 List, My favorite PRR models, all N scale, are 1. the PRR H3 I modified from an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0, 2. The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab, 3. the PRR B6sb modified from a MiniTrix 0-6-0 superdetailed and tender pickup added, 4. the PRR L1s modified from a Rivarossi 2-8-2 and Minitrix boiler. I could go on. I still have a Kato-GHQ L1s to complete, along with a MiniTrix I1s to modify, and have another MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 coming from eBay. These are marvelous runners, by the way. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models > Hello list, > > Seconding someone else's good idea, let's hear about > your favorite PRR models. > > I have two; both are K4s engines, albeit in different > scales. > > I have an HO Bachmann/Bowser hybrid model of K4s 1361 > that is now nearly all Bowser (the boiler is Bachmann, > but the mechanism and tender are courtesy of the folks > in Montoursville, PA). This engine was part of the > first run of Bachmann K4s engines that arrived early > in 1989, and it was the first PRR passenger engine I > acquired. > > I also have an MTH Rail King K4s with sound that > fulfills a childhood wish for a tinplate PRR engine > that runs well. > > Doug > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] RE: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:10:37 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" George, Send an email to safeharbor@ebay.com. They should investigate and will suspend sellers for infractions such as this. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:03 PM To: PRR Talk; EL LIST; PRR Fax Cc: stmfc@yahoogroups.com Subject: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Photos Since many of the people on these lists use George Elwood's site I thought I would crosspost this message The original message is from Gerhard Stuebben.Please read. Brian Carlson > An unscrupulous person (operating under the name of "Blue Flame > Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / PRR images from George Elwood's > Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) and is selling them on CD. > > As George says: > "It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions > Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing > them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from > me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, > I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my > site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned > and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't > belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already > heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action." > > Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half of the NYC photos on that site > are from my personal collection, I am more than a little upset -- as are > contributors for other railroads. The eBay seller, who was apparently > unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed to remove them from sale: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=2152174635 > > My initial attempt to identify who is behind "Blue Flame Productions" has > been unsuccessful. If you have any leads, or should see these disks for > sale at train meets, please contact me (stuebben@flash.net) or George Elwood > (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of the seller. I am not > interested in taking action against innocent purchasers or dealers; I'm just > trying to get the illegal duplication stopped. > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > Gary Stuebben > Dayton, OH > > > > > NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION: http://www.nycshs.org/news.html > > New York Central System Historical Society Website: > www.nycshs.org > > Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada division) website: www.canadasouthern.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR = Photos

George,

Send an email to safeharbor@ebay.com.  They = should investigate and will suspend sellers for infractions such as = this.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net= ]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:03 PM
To: PRR Talk; EL LIST; PRR Fax
Cc: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / = NYC / PRR Photos


Since many of the people on these lists use George = Elwood's site I thought I
would crosspost this message  The original = message is from Gerhard
Stuebben.Please read.

Brian Carlson

> An unscrupulous person (operating under the name = of "Blue Flame
> Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / = PRR images from George Elwood's
> Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) = and is selling them on CD.
>
> As George says:
> "It has come to my attention that a = company named Blue Flame Productions
> Company has downloaded many of the images from = my site and is distributing
> them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on = eBay without permission from
> me or the owners of the images. Checking the = Ebay site of items being
sold,
> I was able to identify most of the images shown = as sample as ones from my
> site. Also available on these CD are the = operator manuals which I scanned
> and made available on my site. I don't have = time to surf the net and don't
> belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by = surprise. I have already
> heard from several submitters to my site who = are considering legal
action."
>
> Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half = of the NYC photos on that
site
> are from my personal collection, I am more than = a little upset -- as are
> contributors for other railroads.  The = eBay seller, who was apparently
> unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed = to remove them from sale:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category= =3D130&item=3D2152174635
>
> My initial attempt to identify who is behind = "Blue Flame Productions" has
> been unsuccessful.  If you have any leads, = or should see these disks for
> sale at train meets, please contact me = (stuebben@flash.net) or George
Elwood
> (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of = the seller.  I am not
> interested in taking action against innocent = purchasers or dealers; I'm
just
> trying to get the illegal duplication = stopped.
>
> Thank you in advance for your help.
>
> Gary Stuebben
> Dayton, OH
>
>
>
>
> NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION:  http://www.nycshs.org/news.html
>
> New York Central System Historical Society = Website:
> www.nycshs.org
>
> Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada = division) website:
www.canadasouthern.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:58:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Steam locomotive suspensions, was: Bowser Just a general question on steam models, promted by Lewis' very positive views on Bowser; I am certainly interested in steam, but before anything I demand reliable operation: the unit must be able to run slowly, and keep on track even if it's not perfect, by not perfect I don't mean out of gauge, but I do mean track that's handlaid and not perfectly flat and level (just like the prototype, in fact). Until the modern high-quality diesels (Kato, Atlas in HO) arrived, performance was not encouraging; now, with higher quality, it's great. For diesels. For steam locomotives, there is the additional consideration of the driving wheel suspension. Time was, every review in a magazine mentioned whether the drivers are sprung; this almost is never mentioned these days. Years ago, I had a PFM brass 2-9-0, not PRR unfortunately; but it most definitely had sprung drivers, and in fact I had to modify the springing, with less stiff springs, to make it track properly. So, of all the engines people have been discussing, are any of them built with sprung drivers? If not, I cringe at what would happen every time the drivers find a slightly high point on the track; the whole engine would necessarily rise up, and maybe derail. I don't think it's possible to hand-lay perfectly level track; and neither do the prototype roads, that's why their drivers have springs! Has anyone found the springing question to be significant? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:47:05 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] PFM I1s, and air tanks --=====================_8319975==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bisbee wrote to me: And Bill Daniels wrote: >have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late >1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who >refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these >in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s >that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did >exist, and they are NOT rumor.> So it looks pretty sure to me that the early PFM I1s DID have an undersized boiler. AND they probably also had undersized air tanks. I will continue my search for an actual measurement, for completeness, but Bill and Bis have me convinced. I see others have already posted some interesting info about the air tank dimensions and models of such. I will also check the drawings I have from a 1953 issue of Model Railroader. If no one else does so, I will personally measure the air tanks on the 4483 next summer. Tom Hayden --=====================_8319975==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bisbee wrote to me:

<I am certain about the PFM models. I had one of each, at the same time, many years ago. One big boiler, one small boiler. The difference was obvious. Back in the brass-trading days of yore, we who subjected ourselves to that hobby had to be cautious to specify, when trying to acquire an I-1, that we only wanted a correct or fast boiler model. Otherwise, the guys who got stuck with the skinny ones were more than happy to sell it to the unsuspecting.

That's what I know...>

And Bill Daniels wrote:
 
<I can assure you that the first run of these DID indeed
have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late
1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who
refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these
in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s
that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did
exist, and they are NOT rumor.>


So it looks pretty sure to me that the early PFM I1s DID have an undersized boiler. AND they probably also had undersized air tanks.

I will continue my search for an actual measurement, for completeness, but Bill and Bis have me convinced.

I see others have already posted some interesting info about the air tank dimensions and models of such. I will also check the drawings I have from a 1953 issue of Model Railroader. If no one else does so, I will personally measure the air tanks on the 4483 next summer.

Tom Hayden



--=====================_8319975==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:01:53 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? --0-382422445-1041613313=:67840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? Thank you. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-382422445-1041613313=:67840 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed?

Thank you.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-382422445-1041613313=:67840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam locomotive suspensions, was: Bowser Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:07:40 +0000 It isn't a problem with Bowsers. They aren't sprung but weigh so much that tracking is rarely a problem. You will also find where you don't have enough support for your railroad if you park one in the wrong place long enough! > Just a general question on steam models, promted by Lewis' very > positive views on Bowser; > > I am certainly interested in steam, but before anything I demand > reliable operation: the unit must be able to run slowly, and keep on > track even if it's not perfect, by not perfect I don't mean out of > gauge, but I do mean track that's handlaid and not perfectly flat and > level (just like the prototype, in fact). > > Until the modern high-quality diesels (Kato, Atlas in HO) arrived, > performance was not encouraging; now, with higher quality, it's > great. For diesels. > > For steam locomotives, there is the additional consideration of the > driving wheel suspension. Time was, every review in a magazine > mentioned whether the drivers are sprung; this almost is never > mentioned these days. Years ago, I had a PFM brass 2-9-0, not > PRR unfortunately; but it most definitely had sprung drivers, and in > fact I had to modify the springing, with less stiff springs, to make it > track properly. > > So, of all the engines people have been discussing, are any of > them built with sprung drivers? If not, I cringe at what would > happen every time the drivers find a slightly high point on the track; > the whole engine would necessarily rise up, and maybe derail. I > don't think it's possible to hand-lay perfectly level track; and neither > do the prototype roads, that's why their drivers have springs! Has > anyone found the springing question to be significant? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:43:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? well, the easy part: there are certainly four tracks on the Delaware bridge! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:07:39 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Fw: NMRO List - Fw: [NERAIL] Expanded Historic USGS Maps Hi, List. I'm forwarding this email on the off-chance that some of you might be able to use the maps at UNH. Happy rails to you..... Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott J. Whitney" To: "List VRS&Rutland" ; "List Structures" ; "List Semaphores" ; "List Pinsly" ; "List NYSW" ; "List NYO&W" ; "List NSTier" ; "List NMRO" ; "List NERails" ; "List Nerailpic" ; "List NEModelers" ; "List NE C&S" ; "List Marailfan" ; "List GCDRA" ; "List EBT_Pictures" ; "List D-L" ; "List Delaware & Hudson" ; "List D&H" ; "List CV-Rwy" ; "List CV_RR" ; "List Boston & Maine" ; "List Backshop" ; "List B&M RR" Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:44 PM Subject: NMRO List - Fw: [NERAIL] Expanded Historic USGS Maps Web Site > Everyone: > The following post from the NERAIL list is VERY good news. For those > that are unaware, for a while now the University of New Hampshire has hosted > a historic topographical map site. It is an absolute wealth of information > for those wishing to research long abandoned rail lines. It had grown in > size to include areas all the way down to Maryland but then had to be scaled > back to just New York and New England. > Now comes the GREAT news that MapTech has picked up the ball and is > running with it. They are hosting a very similar site which includes all of > the UNH maps as well as those they had to drop all the way down into > Maryland. I'm hoping that they will continue to expand this coverage as > well. Please enjoy! > > SJW > > > > Everyone, > > Announcing a new web site with more historic maps of more areas: > > > > http://historical.maptech.com/ > > > > States available now include all of New England, Delaware, > > Maryland, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania. The new site is hosted > > by and supported by Maptech. They have but a substantial amount of > > effort into putting the new site together. Ed Lecuyer, a NERAIL member > > and the QA manager at Maptech was instrumental in arranging things. > > Thanks should go to Alan Simpson and Josh Davis at Maptech as well. > > We also have Ohio and most of West Virginia scanned, waiting for > > me to find some time to get them assembled and organized. These two > > states and some of Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania will come as the > > result of the scanning efforts made by Stephen Titchenal and Derrick > > Brashear. > > > > The University of New Hampshire Library has decided to keep the > > collection there to New England and New York. This UNH site will remain > up. > > > > Feel free to forward this on to any lists that might find these > > maps useful and of interest. > > > > Chris Marshall > > Amherst, New Hampshire > > NERAIL member > > > Visit the NMRO web site: http://home.adelphia.net/~nmro > Where the American Flag flies proudly on every page... > ....and always has! > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ATTENTION: > Railroad Explorer, Volume 2, #3 is on sale NOW at better railroad magazine dealers near you! > See the website http://railroadexplorer.com for details. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Post message: NMRO@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: NMRO-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: NMRO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: NMRO-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Chat: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NMRO/chat > > Got something to sell or trade? > Looking for a special railroad item? > Subscribe to The Backshop > http://www.egroups.com/subscribe.cgi/Backshop > Don't forget to vistit the NMRO homepage at: > http://home.adelphia.net/~nmro > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:11:13 -0500 From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Check out the Library of Congress . http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/hhquery.html Search for pennsylvania railroad northeast corridor There are a number of photos of the bridge. In this case, #31 is what you want. It shows the bridge, overhead, four tracks wide. With a freight coming over it from Trenton. Searching for pennsylvania railroad delaware comes up with a bunch of stuff too. You'd be surprised what pictures you can find here of old stuff. -alex On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:01:53 -0800 (PST) Randolph Harrison wrote: > > I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? > Thank you. > Randy Harrison > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:14:57 -0500 Close. The car was one of a series of PRR PDB70s, nothing to do with Pullman. Other PDB70s were modernized to match the mew streamlined equipment. Look at the drawings and note the truck center match other PRR PB70s. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com [SMTP:Chrisandbelton2@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:09 AM To: crashtech@chartermi.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > Question: Any history available on this car? The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo. Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train. There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708. There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981]. The car was PRR class PBD70A. Here is a link to the elevation and end view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.h tml?diag=pdb70a.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan. > > Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment. you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though. > > Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like > to share? > << File: ATT00000.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:27:37 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: NMRO List - Fw: [NERAIL] Expanded Historic USGS On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Zak wrote: > Hi, List. > > I'm forwarding this email on the off-chance that some of you might be able > to use the maps at UNH. [] > > Maryland. I'm hoping that they will continue to expand this coverage as > > well. Please enjoy! I can tell you that most of Virginia, West Virginia and Ohio are "in the can" waiting for people to have time to deal with them. A handful of maps, alphabetically at the end of Virginia, and a few missing or misscanned maps for the other 2 should be all that's left for complete coverage of those 3. Beyond that things may get sticky as there was apparently never full coverage of the U.S. in the 15' 1/62500 series. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFM I-1s Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:24:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_022A_01C2B323.16F24A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gene wrote-- > > Peach Creek Shops has one listed for $200. They might know which year = run it > is and measure it or at least opinionate on the correctness. > Wow, that one sure disappeared fast--wasn't there at noon on Jan 3. Also, I believe the PFM I1 with the small boiler has an injector under = the right side of the cab. On an I1 with feedwater heater this injector = should not be there. Easier to see that injector than it is to measure the = boiler. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_022A_01C2B323.16F24A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gene wrote--
>
> Peach Creek Shops has one listed for = $200.=20 They might know which year run
it
> is and measure it or at = least=20 opinionate on the correctness.
>
Wow, that one sure disappeared = fast--wasn't there at noon on Jan 3.

Also, I believe the PFM I1 = with the=20 small boiler has an injector under the
right side of the cab.  = On an I1=20 with feedwater heater this injector should
not be there.  Easier = to see=20 that injector than it is to measure the boiler.

Steve = Hoxie
Pensacola=20 FL
------=_NextPart_000_022A_01C2B323.16F24A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:33:15 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Weldon, Hope this helps? PDB70AR-70' Combine-Dormitory-Baggage- Budd #6707-6708- Seats 18 2DP5 Check out Rob Schoenberg's site for diagrams. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=ge Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Weldon Greiger wrote: > On page 36 of "Wayner Publications", "Passenger Train Consists of the > 1940's, there is a photo of the passageway side of PRR # 6707 > Baggage-Dormitory. I'd guess the photo was taken at the Sunnyside > yard, because of the industrial buildings in the background and the > overhead wire. The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. > train 29 westbound departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes > baggage-dormitory car 6707, which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit > diner with crew's quarters. George Votava photo." From all outward > appearances this looks like a lightweight car, low roof and all, but > rides on 6 wheel trucks. Here are my questions. Can anyone answer > these questions or in the alternative point me in the right > direction? Question: Any history available on this car? Question: > Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:47:13 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B358.8791D2D0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello all, I'm new to the list and was wondering if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia. Thanks Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B358.8791D2D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR-Talk

Hello all,
I'm new to the list and was wondering = if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that = comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia.

Thanks

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro = Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B358.8791D2D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:29:46 -0500 Listers, Ted wrote: I own an A-A-B-A set of F's and I think that the drive surpasses the Kato drives for F-units. I am thinking of buying another A-B set. Go ahead and buy your set! That is my recommendation. Ted Andrews I'm having trouble finding a single a-unit to go with my A-B set. So I have 3 questions 1) Can I build one from the Highliner shell? How hard a paint match and what underframe to use? It doesn't have to be powered. 2)in 1955-56 which was more common for the F-7's A-B-A or A-B-B-A 3)There is a single A-unit in a Hobby shop near me but it has the same road # as the A-unit I have. I assume that the PRR did not have A-B-A sets with all the same road numbers that 1 A and 1 B should have the same # but the other A should be different. Speaking of B-units does anyone know a hobby shop that has a P1000 PRR C-liner B-unit for sale? Got the latest Walther's sale flier and on page 32 is a nice shot of the R50B reefer! I assume the Keystone scheme is the late (60's) scheme where they just used a Keystone instead of a roadname. Finally I know there is a gentleman on this list on the Delmarva peninsula unfortunately I can't find a message with his name (and the many and varied signatures) Could you please e-mail me off list. Thanks for reading! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:56:49 EST Subject: [PRR] DREAM TRAINS --part1_ba.33c454fe.2b475311_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received my copy today. Looks interesting. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_ba.33c454fe.2b475311_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received my copy today.
Looks interesting.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years
 --part1_ba.33c454fe.2b475311_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:19:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car --part1_195.13442b53.2b475845_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weldon Geiger indicated that the trucks were 6 wheel. 2D-P5s are 4 wheel. My sources (Roster 10/01/54) indicate that they rode on 3D7P2s. Class was PDB70a Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_195.13442b53.2b475845_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weldon Geiger indicated that the trucks were 6 wheel. 2D-P5s are 4 wheel. My sources (Roster 10/01/54) indicate that they rode on 3D7P2s. Class was PDB70a

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_195.13442b53.2b475845_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:01:05 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Ray: You are right. My error. Eddie RBurg74133@aol.com wrote: > Weldon Geiger indicated that the trucks were 6 wheel. 2D-P5s are 4 > wheel. My sources (Roster 10/01/54) indicate that they rode on 3D7P2s. > Class was PDB70a > > Ray Burghart > SPF for over 50 years ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:50:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR] wire train car #495200 Hi everyone, Al Buchan sent me this privately, but I thought others might enjoy it. >Looks like you or whoever took the last two shots was falling down the >stairs. Hope no one got hurt. ;^) Don't worry - I'm all healed up by now! Sorry about the diagonal composition! Actually I couldn't get far enuf away from the car to fit the entire thing into the viewfinder, so I tried to fit it diagonally. It still didn't work, as you can see! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:50:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Hey Gregg, > The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 > using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab This one sounds pretty cool! Were there any special "gotchas" to watch for? While I've not done so yet, I believe the trucks & underframe from the recently-released KATO caboose should be good to use in tenders for small steam such as this, since it provides all-wheel pickup. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:13:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve From: "Douglas Nelson" George: I was in Altoona a couple of weeks ago. The museum is closed. The website gives no details other than saying that it is closed until Spring. The Curve is closed also. I'm not sure about parking outside the gate and walking in. The steps are probably covered with ice and about a foot of snow which may make going up difficult and coming down, well, fast. There are other ways to get to the Curve but they all involve trespassing which is probably not recommended these days. Lots of other good places to see trains though. I recommend Cassandra, just east of Portage. Doug Nelson ---------- >From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve >Date: Thu, Jan 2, 2003, 9:40 PM > > Evanthought the curve is closed, is it possible to walk up the steps? > If the lot is closed, where could I park, roadside? > Will my car be disturbed parking along roadside? > Is the museum open during all this commotion with the changing of the guard? > > I plan to visit the museum and the curve on my way to see Punxsutawney Phil. > > Thanks > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 22:17:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: wire train car #495200 Claus, et al., I was going through some photos this evening and found a color photo (from Bob's Photos) of what at first blush appears to be a PB70 in wire train service. A close examination of the window placement reveals that this car, PRR 495207, was actually a P70 with most of the windows blocked out and with a baggage door cut in. The other give away is it has a vestibule on both ends. Under the car number is a description of its use "RIDING TOOL & MATERIAL CAR." The other cars in the wire train were two class FM tower cars, a class X31 "S" car (looks like 497340) and a class GR cable and reel car. I have already deleted your message w/ photo attachments. Did the 495200 have a vestibule at only one end? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:36:47 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3124467407_198072_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy: The bridge has four tracks. Triumph V has an aerial photo of the bridge on page 68. Its not a close up, so it is hard to see the details, but there appears to be a railing, probably PRR safety railing. Doug Nelson ---------- From: Randolph Harrison To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 9:01 AM I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? Thank you. Randy Harrison --MS_Mac_OE_3124467407_198072_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Randy:

The bridge has four tracks.  Triumph V has an aerial photo of the brid= ge on page 68.  Its not a close up, so it is hard to see the details, b= ut there appears to be a railing, probably PRR safety railing.

Doug Nelson

----------
From: Randolph Harrison <hbcrandy@yahoo.com>
To: PRR talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?
Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 9:01 AM



I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River = to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any ph= otos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed?

Thank you.

Randy Harrison
--MS_Mac_OE_3124467407_198072_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Re: Favorite PRR models Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:01:33 -0500 Claus and list, Yes, there are a few "gotchas" on the A5. First, I left everything below the runningboards from the Rivarossi casting, as well as the front wall of the cab from the Rivarossi casting. This, like the B6sb, is a metal casting. The B6 boiler was also cut above the running board and in front of the cab and then cut into three pieces to make the A5 boiler. A single lung air pump was turned from brass as were various other details. Tomorrow I may try a picture with the same lousy camera. BTW, while we're discussing cameras. Any suggestions for a good digital camera around 200 bucks discount that will take good closeup pictures and doesn't have "bells & whistles" I don't want like "videos". It just has to download to a USB port. Claus, you can get a USB upgrade for Windows 95 according to the USB card I installed in my computer. You might check with Cyberguys at 1-800-892-1010 in Ranch Cucamonga. That's where I bought my card over the internet. Gregg Mahlkov BTW, took a better pix and will send separate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:50 PM Subject: Favorite PRR models > Hey Gregg, > > > The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 > > using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab > > This one sounds pretty cool! > > Were there any special "gotchas" to watch for? > > While I've not done so yet, I believe the trucks & > underframe from the recently-released KATO caboose should be > good to use in tenders for small steam such as this, since > it provides all-wheel pickup. > > - Claus > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:48:34 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Bl2xVCuNhqqp9w8NpMTi3w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Triumph V has that info. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph Harrison Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:02 PM To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? Thank you. Randy Harrison ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --Boundary_(ID_Bl2xVCuNhqqp9w8NpMTi3w) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Triumph V has that info.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph Harrison
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:02 PM
To: PRR talk
Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?

I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed?

Thank you.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
--Boundary_(ID_Bl2xVCuNhqqp9w8NpMTi3w)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 01:02:01 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-Talk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qU0HxK7ppaprmVb8jI5p+A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT PRR-TalkKen- To my knowledge, this branch has never had an issue done on it by the Phila. Chpt PRRTHS. What exactly are you looking for about the branch? The branch is not that long mileage wise. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk Hello all, I'm new to the list and was wondering if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia. Thanks Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 --Boundary_(ID_qU0HxK7ppaprmVb8jI5p+A) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT PRR-Talk
Ken-
 
To my knowledge, this branch has never had an issue done on it by the Phila. Chpt PRRTHS.  What exactly are you looking for about the branch?  The branch is not that long mileage wise.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:47 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk

Hello all,
I'm new to the list and was wondering if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia.

Thanks

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

--Boundary_(ID_qU0HxK7ppaprmVb8jI5p+A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 10:05:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Trenton -- was The Bridge On the subject of Fair Trenton, I drove through there a few weeks ago following the line to Bordentown, which is now being rebuilt as part of the south Jersey light rail system. What is the history of this line? Does it predate the PRR main line? The reason I ask is, in Trenton, it crosses over the PRR main (just west of the station) and continues, straight as an arrow, into downtown Trenton; the connection to the main line is a steep grade and seems to be almost an afterthought. In Warren Lee's "Down Along the Old Bel- Del" there are maps of Trenton trackage; this line is called the South Trenton Branch, and joins the Bel-Del near MG Tower (Allegheny enthusiasts, no, not _that_ MG!) Is this some ancient line that the PRR absorbed? Once the light rail line goes into service, later this year I think, it will be nice to have a considerable stretch of ex-PRR trackage restored to passenger service; this will run all the way to Camden on the old Camden & Amboy, although I think that at the Camden end new street-running trackage is being constructed. By the way, this was my first visit to the Bordentown junction (with the old Camden & Amboy line). It's much changed, I think; what was evidently a wye track connecting Trenton to the Amboy direction is gone, a large parking lot has been constructed, and the new light rail station. in place, near the local road underpass. What I think must've been the girders for the wye track bridge over the road are still there, newly painted, but now unused. The old C&A line towards Amboy remains in its historic state in its cut through the middle of Bordentown, probably still used for occasional freight service as far as it goes (Robbinsville?) John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:53:49 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: wire train car #495200 Hi Al & list members, Al wrote: I was going through some photos this evening and found a color photo > (from Bob's Photos) of what at first blush appears to be a PB70 in wire > train service. A close examination of the window placement reveals that > this car, PRR 495207, was actually a P70 with most of the windows > blocked out and with a baggage door cut in. The other give away is it > has a vestibule on both ends. Under the car number is a description of > its use "RIDING TOOL & MATERIAL CAR." > > The other cars in the wire train were two class FM tower cars, a class > X31 "S" car (looks like 497340) and a class GR cable and reel car. > > I have already deleted your message w/ photo attachments. Did the 495200 > have a vestibule at only one end? I didn't send the photos as attachments - I just gave the URL to find them - they are still on my web pages at: http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-1.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-2.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-3.jpg In general, the car is one hell of a prototype kitbash. The baggage end of the car seems to have an end from an mP54 - round porthole windows. Also the car is clearly is riding on 3C-P1 trucks - the dual support pads on the truck & car sides are the give-away. It has a pan and a cupola. But given the 3C-P1 trucks, this is no converted P70, that's for sure! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:29:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2B3EC.F9F9D9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to thank all who replied. I hope to model this car later this = year. I'll post a photo when done. Chris: If you come across a photo of the non passageway side I'd = appreciate a copy. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: gspear01@erols.com ; crashtech@chartermi.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2B3EC.F9F9D9F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I want to thank all who = replied.  I hope to model this car later this year.  I'll post = a photo=20 when done.
 
Chris:  If you = come across a=20 photo of the non passageway side I'd appreciate a copy.
 
All the best to you and yours      =20 Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
To: gspear01@erols.com ; crashtech@chartermi.net ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 = 8:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707=20 Baggage-Dormitory Car

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2B3EC.F9F9D9F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:06:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? --part1_137.19430c7d.2b487c98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: > Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider > modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan, > confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World > Takes." (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest, > "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Or to the east, "Lloyds of > Linden.") A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version > is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses." > > John Bobsin Hi John and others, The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer exists. I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester. "I saw a sign that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?" His reply was "Toilet paper." The Scott Paper Company was there and, unfortunately, Chester has seen better days. However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) Station has been restored recently. Regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_137.19430c7d.2b487c98_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net writes:

Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider
modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan,
confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World
Takes."  (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest,
"What Chester Makes Makes Chester."  Or to the east, "Lloyds of
Linden.")  A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version
is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses."

John Bobsin


Hi John and others,

The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer exists.  I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester.  "I saw a sign that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?"  His reply was "Toilet paper."  The Scott Paper Company was there and, unfortunately, Chester has seen better days.  However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) Station has been restored recently.

Regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_137.19430c7d.2b487c98_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 13:19:19 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_p2IwlU3Asfxjda6dsUSmbg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is a minor rant, so please ignore it unless you care to be amused. ------------------------------------------ I love MT trucks with couplers. I really do. I think they're the greatest thing since bread fresh from a bakery that you slice yourself. Can anyone tell me, however, if there is some very special, probably arcane, reason that the wheels pop out when the wheelset is looked at wrong? ------------------------ Sorry for the interruption of the normal flow of info on this web. I just got done putting new sets on about a dozen boxcars and/or reefers (about a 50-50 %age), and my back is killing me from bending over to pick the wheels up from the floor. ;-) Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_p2IwlU3Asfxjda6dsUSmbg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
This is a minor rant, so please ignore it unless you care to be amused.
------------------------------------------
I love MT trucks with couplers.  I really do.  I think they're the greatest thing since bread fresh from a bakery that you slice yourself.
 
Can anyone tell me, however, if there is some very special, probably arcane, reason that the wheels pop out when the wheelset is looked at wrong?
------------------------
Sorry for the interruption of the normal flow of info on this web.  I just got done putting new sets on about a dozen  boxcars and/or reefers (about a 50-50 %age), and my back is killing me from bending over to pick the wheels up from the floor.  ;-)
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_p2IwlU3Asfxjda6dsUSmbg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 13:56:03 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: wire train car #495200 Claus, Re: your comment, "But given the 3C-P1 trucks, this is no converted P70, that's for sure!" Your correct that it's a PB70 not a P70 as there is only one vestibule end also. The wire train P70 PRR 495207, which I spoke of also has round windows in the ends. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 16:11:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Well, if Chester makes toilet paper, my understanding is that one of the principal products of Trenton was "pottery," which in reality was . . . toilets! All no doubt shipped via Pennsy freight. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:24:39 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_CJMIYC2gybrGvGqcg+ZOOg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT "Trenton Makes -- The World Takes." Tell me if I am wrong, but this slogan originated in Philadelphia as "Philadelpha makes what the world takes" back in its days of being a manufacturing giant. Once industry left, the sign was passed onto Trenton. Now what's there. Lenox left. You do have a recently renovated train station. --Boundary_(ID_CJMIYC2gybrGvGqcg+ZOOg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
"Trenton Makes -- The World Takes."
 
Tell me if I am wrong, but this slogan originated in Philadelphia as "Philadelpha makes what the world takes" back in its days of being a manufacturing giant.  Once industry left, the sign was passed onto Trenton.  Now what's there.  Lenox left.  You do have a recently renovated train station.
--Boundary_(ID_CJMIYC2gybrGvGqcg+ZOOg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:28:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B427.7645B800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please Email me with your correct Email address. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B427.7645B800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please Email me with your correct Email address.
 
=
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B427.7645B800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Steve Bundick Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:44:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2B429.BF8023A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve Email me again please. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edmund burbage=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick Please Email me with your correct Email address. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2B429.BF8023A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve Email me again please.
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick

Please Email me with your correct Email address.
 
=
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2B429.BF8023A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Email address Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:46:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C2B429.EE6A5500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edmund burbage=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick Please Email me with your correct Email address. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C2B429.EE6A5500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick

Please Email me with your correct Email address.
 
=
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C2B429.EE6A5500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:52:26 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_1KNLqFS5YGVdjYZ49uIYxg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to me. Question though: how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas Accumate couplers? I seem to remember reading on this net - maybe a month or so ago - an email of someone who really despised the Accumate couplers. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob McKay To: Zak Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Sounds like you are referring to the low profile wheel sets?? MT axles for MT trucks, Atlas axles for Atlas and other trucks. Seems to work for me. Only because I got tired of bending over to pick up MT wheelsets off the floor. boB --Boundary_(ID_1KNLqFS5YGVdjYZ49uIYxg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to me.  Question though:  how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas Accumate couplers?  I seem to remember reading on this net - maybe a month or so ago - an email of someone who really despised the Accumate couplers.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob McKay
To: Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers

Sounds like you are referring to the low profile wheel sets??  MT axles for MT trucks, Atlas axles for Atlas and other trucks.  Seems to work for me.  Only because I got tired of bending over to pick up MT wheelsets off the floor.
boB
--Boundary_(ID_1KNLqFS5YGVdjYZ49uIYxg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:50:37 -0800 Subject: [PRR] paint the drivers Hi, I'd like to paint the drivers on several of my PRR steam locos - that is to say, the axle, spokes, and tire sides of the drivers. Can anyone suggest a suitable color? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 00:17:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2B44F.CDEA5DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, The two coupler types work fairly well together. The Accumates from = Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, causing = derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at = crosswise. A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel = superglue to attach the pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works = fine. I may try this on some Accumate trucks I have next time I need a = pair of trucks, since I'd have to drive over 100 miles each way to buy a = pair of M-T trucks. Gregg Mahlkov. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: Bob McKay ; prr-talk=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to me. Question though: = how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas Accumate couplers? I = seem to remember reading on this net - maybe a month or so ago - an = email of someone who really despised the Accumate couplers. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob McKay=20 To: Zak=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Sounds like you are referring to the low profile wheel sets?? MT = axles for MT trucks, Atlas axles for Atlas and other trucks. Seems to = work for me. Only because I got tired of bending over to pick up MT = wheelsets off the floor. boB ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2B44F.CDEA5DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 
The two coupler types work fairly well together. The = Accumates=20 from Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, = causing=20 derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at = crosswise.=20 A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel superglue to = attach the=20 pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works fine. I may try this on = some=20 Accumate trucks I have next time I need a pair of trucks, since I'd have = to=20 drive over 100 miles each way to buy a pair of M-T trucks.
 
Gregg Mahlkov.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 04, = 2003 11:52=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks=20 w/couplers

Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to = me. =20 Question though:  how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas = Accumate couplers?  I seem to remember reading on this net - = maybe a=20 month or so ago - an email of someone who really despised the Accumate = couplers.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing = mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob = McKay=20
To: Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 04, = 2003 7:50=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks=20 w/couplers

Sounds like you = are referring to=20 the low profile wheel sets??  MT axles for MT trucks, Atlas = axles for=20 Atlas and other trucks.  Seems to work for me.  Only = because I got=20 tired of bending over to pick up MT wheelsets off the = floor.
boB
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2B44F.CDEA5DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 02:58:17 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QSWR7PfI9+cqRU6wLWwgkA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gregg, I had the same experience - the lid on the draft gear box popping off and the coupler and spring going everywhere - with the MT set which includes the pilot for a Life-Like GP-18. It didn't exactly make my day. Did a quick glue job on the other 'assembled' gearbox/coupler before it flew somewhere into the Atlantic Ocean. You'd think that if the thing was 'assembled' to start with, the people at the factory would have the sense to glue it together, 'cause why would anyone buy it in the first place if it wasn't? I have been thinking about just using the trucks that came with cars, and mounting the MT 1023 'assembled' couplers/gear boxes to the bodies, but I wonder how many springs, etc, I'd have to go chasing after. Any ideas, anyone? Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregg Mahlkov To: Zak ; Bob McKay ; prr-talk Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Zak, The two coupler types work fairly well together. The Accumates from Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, causing derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at crosswise. A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel superglue to attach the pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works fine. I may try this on some Accumate trucks I have next time I need a pair of trucks, since I'd have to drive over 100 miles each way to buy a pair of M-T trucks. Gregg Mahlkov. --Boundary_(ID_QSWR7PfI9+cqRU6wLWwgkA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Gregg,
 
I had the same experience - the lid on the draft gear box popping off and the coupler and spring going everywhere - with the MT set which includes the pilot for a Life-Like GP-18.  It didn't exactly make my day.  Did a quick glue job on the other 'assembled' gearbox/coupler before it flew somewhere into the Atlantic Ocean.
 
You'd think that if the thing was 'assembled' to start with, the people at the factory would have the sense to glue it together, 'cause why would anyone buy it in the first place if it wasn't?
 
I have been thinking about just using the trucks that came with cars, and mounting the MT 1023 'assembled' couplers/gear boxes to the bodies, but I wonder how many springs, etc, I'd have to go chasing after.
 
Any ideas, anyone?
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers

Zak,
 
The two coupler types work fairly well together. The Accumates from Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, causing derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at crosswise. A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel superglue to attach the pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works fine. I may try this on some Accumate trucks I have next time I need a pair of trucks, since I'd have to drive over 100 miles each way to buy a pair of M-T trucks.
 
Gregg Mahlkov.
 
--Boundary_(ID_QSWR7PfI9+cqRU6wLWwgkA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 08:15:50 -0500 Claus, I like Microscale Loco Grimy black. But that's just my opinion. I think from the rest of the group the correct color out of the shops is just black, Hope this helps Sam Vastano >From: "Claus Schlund" >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] paint the drivers >Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:50:37 -0800 > >Hi, > >I'd like to paint the drivers on several of my PRR >steam locos - that is to say, the axle, spokes, and tire sides >of the drivers. > >Can anyone suggest a suitable color? > > - Claus > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. croscale _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:34:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Sam, Claus, Actually the drivers faces should be DGLE. Claus, I wouldn't recommend painting the axles. Especially in N Scale the oils will probably gum up the paint after awhile. I tape off the axles and any gear with masking tape prior to painting. I then go back afterwards and clean the tire treads off.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:58:17 -0500 List, I believe Claus means painting the axle ENDS, which are unpainted metal on most N scale locomotives. I haven't approached this either yet, being afraid to muck up the current collecting abilities of the drivers. Am wondering about the use of PBL's Neolube for rods and axle ends as well as outside of tires. Paint is too likely to chip in these locations. Anyone tried Neolube in N scale? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Sam Vastano" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers > Sam, Claus, > > Actually the drivers faces should be DGLE. Claus, I wouldn't > recommend painting the axles. Especially in N Scale the oils will > probably gum up the paint after awhile. I tape off the axles and any > gear with masking tape prior to painting. I then go back afterwards and > clean the tire treads off.....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:47:03 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Hi, > I believe Claus means painting the axle ENDS, which are unpainted metal on > most N scale locomotives. Correct. > I haven't approached this either yet, being afraid to muck up the current > collecting abilities of the drivers. Am wondering about the use of PBL's > Neolube for rods and axle ends as well as outside of tires. Paint is too > likely to chip in these locations. Anyone tried Neolube in N scale? Chipped factory paint is one of the reasons I'm wanting to do this. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:20:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers --part1_7a.34efdf08.2b49d17c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_7a.34efdf08.2b49d17c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_7a.34efdf08.2b49d17c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:06:40 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] paint the drivers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Zrp6gy5L7/7DEr1xYOLK5A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As Ray quoted, the publication put out by the Penn. Res. and Info Assoc, predecessor to the PRRTHS stated what colors to paint the different parts on PRR Steam. Personally, I paint the frame, trucks, and wheels Black. Tape the tire part of the wheel with masking tape. If you want a picture, let me know. I took a few when I painted my last locomotive. Photos are low resolution and won't take long downloading on a 56K. Contact me off list. Greg -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RBurg74133@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 1:21 PM To: mahlkov@gtcom.net Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --Boundary_(ID_Zrp6gy5L7/7DEr1xYOLK5A) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
As Ray quoted, the publication put out by the Penn. Res. and Info Assoc, predecessor to the PRRTHS stated what colors to paint the different parts on PRR Steam.  Personally, I paint the frame, trucks, and wheels Black.  Tape the tire part of the wheel with masking tape.  If you want a picture, let me know.  I took a few when I painted my last locomotive.  Photos are low resolution and won't take long downloading on a 56K.
 
Contact me off list.

Greg
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RBurg74133@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 1:21 PM
To: mahlkov@gtcom.net
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers

The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years
--Boundary_(ID_Zrp6gy5L7/7DEr1xYOLK5A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 With Disk Drivers Progress Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:52:03 -0500 Group, For anyone that is interested on my progress. He is the link of my latest progress. Might be a while for more progress. I am back to school on Tuesday! http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?Page=Last Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:22:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Microtrains couplers & trucks. --part1_182.14b1e2b3.2b4a4261_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro Trains trucks and couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive? Al Guckes Chapel Hill, North Carolina. --part1_182.14b1e2b3.2b4a4261_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro Trains trucks and couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive?

Al Guckes
Chapel Hill, North Carolina. --part1_182.14b1e2b3.2b4a4261_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:11:14 +0000 A couple of comments. 1. The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built. 2. What did Chester make. Well very close to Chester was Eddystone if I am not mistaken home to a little loccomotive works dear to all of us PRR aficianados. Also Sun ship had a ship building facility there and some really heavy industry although no steel mills that I am aware of. By the early 60's when I was in high school and having to play football at Chester we had to leave a manager in the locker room to be sure everything was still there after the game and you left your helmet on when you went to the locker room at the half and end of the game so when they spit on you it avoided you as much as possible > In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net > writes: > > > Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider > > modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan, > > confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World > > Takes." (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest, > > "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Or to the east, "Lloyds of > > Linden.") A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version > > is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses." > > > > John Bobsin > > Hi John and others, > > The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer > exists. I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester. "I saw a sign > that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?" His > reply was "Toilet paper." The Scott Paper Company was there and, > unfortunately, Chester has seen better days. However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) > Station has been restored recently. > > Regards, > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? I was poking around at the Penna. Dept. of State web site. Put "Wheeling Coal Railroad" into the corporation name search engine and got back a record saying that it had been incorporated in 1906, merged into "PennDel Company (Del. Corp.)" 31 Dec. 1954. If you're wondering, the WCRR was a PRR-sponsored road intended to build from Wheeling to Marianna, Pa. It's not clear to me why PRR wanted a to build railroad to Marianna, when they already had one and had previously started and suspended work on another. That name PennDel seems vaguely familiar, but I can't place it. Was it perhaps a PRR-owned holding company? What else did it hold? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Microtrains couplers & trucks. Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:05:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B50E.F71F7A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Cause they haven't figured out how to send them through the 'phone line = yet, Al. You can order them instantly, but you still have to wait on UPS = or USPS! Also, shipping costs more than the trucks if that's all you = need! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ALGUCKES@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: [PRR] Microtrains couplers & trucks. First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro Trains trucks and = couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive? Al Guckes Chapel Hill, North Carolina.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B50E.F71F7A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Cause they haven't figured out how to send them = through the=20 'phone line yet, Al. You can order them instantly, but you = still have=20 to wait on UPS or USPS! Also, shipping costs more than the trucks if = that's all=20 you need!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ALGUCKES@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 = 9:22=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Microtrains = couplers &=20 trucks.

First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro = Trains=20 trucks and couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive?

Al = Guckes
Chapel Hill, North Carolina. = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B50E.F71F7A00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:14:19 -0500 Bob, I remember the name as one of many the PRR had, but I thought that it was used for non-railroad subsidiaries. For example, Manor Real Estate was the main PRR owner of non-railroad related land, but there were at least three other companies used by the Pennsy to buy and sell real estate. All these "shell" subsidiaries were great for making top executive's wives members of their boards! But it did mean PRR could assemble land for a new customer without driving up real estate prices, by buying each tract under a different name! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:44 PM Subject: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? > I was poking around at the Penna. Dept. of State web site. Put > "Wheeling Coal Railroad" into the corporation name search engine and > got back a record saying that it had been incorporated in 1906, > merged into "PennDel Company (Del. Corp.)" 31 Dec. 1954. > > If you're wondering, the WCRR was a PRR-sponsored road intended to > build from Wheeling to Marianna, Pa. It's not clear to me why PRR > wanted a to build railroad to Marianna, when they already had one and > had previously started and suspended work on another. > > That name PennDel seems vaguely familiar, but I can't place it. Was > it perhaps a PRR-owned holding company? What else did it hold? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:26:12 -0500 Chester also made Ford Cars, Reynolds Wire and Cable, and a pelethora of heavy industry that supported Sun Ship and Baldwin. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? > A couple of comments. > 1. The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge > converted when the stone arch bridge was built. > 2. What did Chester make. Well very close to Chester was Eddystone if I am > not mistaken home to a little loccomotive works dear to all of us PRR > aficianados. Also Sun ship had a ship building facility there and some really > heavy industry although no steel mills that I am aware of. By the early 60's > when I was in high school and having to play football at Chester we had to > leave a manager in the locker room to be sure everything was still there > after the game and you left your helmet on when you went to the locker room at > the half and end of the game so when they spit on you it avoided you as much > as possible > > In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net > > writes: > > > > > Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider > > > modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan, > > > confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World > > > Takes." (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest, > > > "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Or to the east, "Lloyds of > > > Linden.") A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version > > > is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses." > > > > > > John Bobsin > > > > Hi John and others, > > > > The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer > > exists. I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester. "I saw a sign > > that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?" His > > reply was "Toilet paper." The Scott Paper Company was there and, > > unfortunately, Chester has seen better days. However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) > > Station has been restored recently. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:16:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Battery Car --part1_164.19a3ca3e.2b4a6b37_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Santa brought me a Red Caboose, stock number RC-7082-1, battery car. Q: What were these cars used for? As it is painted gray, I am assuming some form of maintenance work. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_164.19a3ca3e.2b4a6b37_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Santa brought me a Red Caboose, stock number RC-7082-1, battery car. 

Q:  What were these cars used for?  As it is painted gray,  I am assuming some form of maintenance work.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_164.19a3ca3e.2b4a6b37_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Reweigh locations Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:48:05 -0500 Does anyone have a list of Pennsy reweigh locations. My understanding is they are the letter P followed by a number. I am looking to reference the numbers to a location, Altoona, Erie, Enola, etc. Thanks Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 02:13:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Battery Car I believe moving batteries for passenger cars from Altoona to other locations. Could also be used to move diesel loco batteries. ---------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:36:07 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Reweigh locations Brian and list, I am not sure if all of the paint locations were reweigh locations as well. I do have the repaint locations as follows: Hope this helps, Bill P-2 Greenville Piers Westbound P-50 Enola P-57 Altoona P-61 South Altoona Foundry P-62 Hollidaysburg Eastbound P-63 Hollidaysburg Westbound P-83 Edge Moor, Del. North P-90 Cape Charles, Va. P-129 Northumberland, Pa. Eastward Yard P-130 Northumberland, Pa. Westward Yard P-133 Renovo, Pa. P-171 Park, Pa. P-203 Pitcairn, Pa. North Hump P-273 Mingo Junction, Oh. P-283 Ebenezer, NY. P-301 Olean, NY. P-314 Erie, Pa. (out of service by 11/23) P-380 Akron, Oh. P-441 Ft. Wayne, Ind. Car Shop P-475 Logansport, Ind. Yard "A" Eastbound P-545 Detroit, Mi. Ecorse Yard (Lincoln Yard) P-630 Columbus, Oh. Westbound P-708 Terre Haute, Ind. Easy Yard P-712 Terre Haute, Ind. New Shop P-718 Rose Lake, Ill Eastbound P-752 Indianapolis, Ind. East Yard Pennsylvania Eastern Region (P1-P199) P2 = Greenville Piers NJ P18 = Camden NJ P50 = Enola Yard PA + P54 = Martinsburg WV P57 = Altoona PA + P62 = Holidaysburg PA + P64 = Tyrone PA P81 = Thurlow MD P82 = Lenni Yard PA P90 = Cape Charles VA + P129 = Northumberland PA P131 = Williamsport PA P133 = Renovo PA + P134 = Southport NY Central Region (P200-P399) P205 = Pitcairn PA + P222 = Peterson PA P243 = Shire Oaks PA P273 = Mingo Jct. OH P301 = Glean NY P304 = Venango PA P314 = Erie PA P330 = New Castle PA + P341 = Conway PA P364 = Cleveland OH + Northwestern Region (P400-P599) P441 = Ft. Wayne Car Shop + P545 = Ecorse Yard (Detroit) MI Southwestern Region (P600-P799) P630 = Columbus OH P632 = Columbus, OH Car Shop + P658 = Cincinnati OH P708 = Terre Haute IN + P712 = Terre Haute. IN Car Shop + P732 = Jeffersonville IN P752 = Indianapolis IN + ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:36:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations Brian and list, I am not sure if all of the paint locations were reweigh locations as well. I do have the repaint locations as follows: Hope this helps, Bill P-2 Greenville Piers Westbound P-50 Enola P-57 Altoona P-61 South Altoona Foundry P-62 Hollidaysburg Eastbound P-63 Hollidaysburg Westbound P-83 Edge Moor, Del. North P-90 Cape Charles, Va. P-129 Northumberland, Pa. Eastward Yard P-130 Northumberland, Pa. Westward Yard P-133 Renovo, Pa. P-171 Park, Pa. P-203 Pitcairn, Pa. North Hump P-273 Mingo Junction, Oh. P-283 Ebenezer, NY. P-301 Olean, NY. P-314 Erie, Pa. (out of service by 11/23) P-380 Akron, Oh. P-441 Ft. Wayne, Ind. Car Shop P-475 Logansport, Ind. Yard "A" Eastbound P-545 Detroit, Mi. Ecorse Yard (Lincoln Yard) P-630 Columbus, Oh. Westbound P-708 Terre Haute, Ind. Easy Yard P-712 Terre Haute, Ind. New Shop P-718 Rose Lake, Ill Eastbound P-752 Indianapolis, Ind. East Yard Pennsylvania Eastern Region (P1-P199) P2 = Greenville Piers NJ P18 = Camden NJ P50 = Enola Yard PA + P54 = Martinsburg WV P57 = Altoona PA + P62 = Holidaysburg PA + P64 = Tyrone PA P81 = Thurlow MD P82 = Lenni Yard PA P90 = Cape Charles VA + P129 = Northumberland PA P131 = Williamsport PA P133 = Renovo PA + P134 = Southport NY Central Region (P200-P399) P205 = Pitcairn PA + P222 = Peterson PA P243 = Shire Oaks PA P273 = Mingo Jct. OH P301 = Glean NY P304 = Venango PA P314 = Erie PA P330 = New Castle PA + P341 = Conway PA P364 = Cleveland OH + Northwestern Region (P400-P599) P441 = Ft. Wayne Car Shop + P545 = Ecorse Yard (Detroit) MI Southwestern Region (P600-P799) P630 = Columbus OH P632 = Columbus, OH Car Shop + P658 = Cincinnati OH P708 = Terre Haute IN + P712 = Terre Haute. IN Car Shop + P732 = Jeffersonville IN P752 = Indianapolis IN + "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:01:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? ndbprr@att.net wrote: "The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built." Hmm, this is interesting; when did this happen? I just checked a map of Trenton, and if the railroad followed the alignment of the Trenton Makes bridge, it must've had quite a different right of way particularly on the Pennsylvania side; the bridge seems to diverge substantially from the current railroad route headed west. Also note that to my recollection the "Trenton Makes" bridge is now the second bridge upstream from the PRR bridge; the new Route 1 "toll bridge" now intervenes, making it harder to see the famous sign from passing trains. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:32:27 -0500 There is a list of scales and their codes in the CT1000. The scales section is on my website at: http://prr.railfan.net/lists/track_scales_1923.html Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:48 AM > To: PRR Fax > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations > > > Does anyone have a list of Pennsy reweigh locations. My understanding is > they are the letter P followed by a number. I am looking to reference the > numbers to a location, Altoona, Erie, Enola, etc. Thanks > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information > While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:11:11 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Very wrong. You can't miss that sign, unless you have the presently used Rt. 1 bridge bumper to bumper with tractor trailers, or trailer vans-whatever terminology you prefer to use! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:01 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? ndbprr@att.net wrote: "The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built." Hmm, this is interesting; when did this happen? I just checked a map of Trenton, and if the railroad followed the alignment of the Trenton Makes bridge, it must've had quite a different right of way particularly on the Pennsylvania side; the bridge seems to diverge substantially from the current railroad route headed west. Also note that to my recollection the "Trenton Makes" bridge is now the second bridge upstream from the PRR bridge; the new Route 1 "toll bridge" now intervenes, making it harder to see the famous sign from passing trains. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] Engine number 7298 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:34:17 -0600 Greetings.. I would appreciate learning the class of an old Pennsylvania Lines engine number.7298. Also, are there any photos of this engine on line? My photo was taken in the winter time and only two drivers are visible through the steam. Thanks, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:10:06 +0000 E. P. Alexander say's that in his book on the PRR written in the late 40's. > Very wrong. You can't miss that sign, unless you have the presently used > Rt. 1 bridge bumper to bumper with tractor trailers, or trailer > vans-whatever terminology you prefer to use! > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > bobsin@nac.net > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:01 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? > > > ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > "The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad > bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built." > > Hmm, this is interesting; when did this happen? I just checked a > map of Trenton, and if the railroad followed the alignment of the > Trenton Makes bridge, it must've had quite a different right of way > particularly on the Pennsylvania side; the bridge seems to diverge > substantially from the current railroad route headed west. Also > note that to my recollection the "Trenton Makes" bridge is now the > second bridge upstream from the PRR bridge; the new Route 1 "toll > bridge" now intervenes, making it harder to see the famous sign > from passing trains. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:27:59 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Battery Car In a message dated 1/6/2003 2:13:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, KEMACPRR writes: > > > I believe moving batteries for passenger cars from Altoona to other > locations. Could also be used to move diesel loco batteries. ---------- Ken > McCorry > Also for moving batteries for signals from Altoona to division MOW centers. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:31:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Among other things, PennDel Co. owned the Delmarva Division of the PRR. This was sold in 1981 to the Accomac Northampton Transportation District Commission, an arm of the two County governments that owns what is now the Eastern Shore Railroad. A copy of the plats --really old valuation drawings-- are in the Northampton County Courthouse as part of the deed and plat books. [Also home of the oldest continuous court records in the New World dating from 1628!] Jim McDaniel, not quite that old in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:33:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Dave wrote: > > I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you > > went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab > > signals should change to "approach". Right? Then Al Buchan wrote: > No Dave that's not correct, you carry the aspect of the signal you have > gone by until to get to the next signal. If you go by a "clear" the cab > stays "clear" also until the next signal. If the next signal is > "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Al, with your permission, I would like to make your reply a bit more specific. Please amplify further. I would put the cab signal rule as follows: The cab signal shows the aspect the signal you have gone by _would_ show were your train not there. The meaning of the detail I've added is probably not evident, so I will provide an example. However, when having trouble remembering it, imagine it this way: the cab signal is the equivalent of the engineer sticking out his hand, ripping the wayside signal out of the ground, and carrying it with him all the way to the next signal, with the signal all the while showing an aspect appropriate to that portion of the block that remains in front of the locomotive. Reaching the next signal, the engineer drops the signals he's been holding and picks up the next one. The example: a train passes a Clear wayside signal. Cab signal shows (or changes to) Clear. Wayside signal changes to Stop and Proceed or Stop, but cab signal remains at Clear. I.e., the wayside signal has properly changed to protect the block, but the cab signal is not concerned with the portion of the block behind and including the train, only that portion ahead. I.e., if your train were not there, the wayside signal would still show Clear, so this is what the cab signal shows. So far so good. Now here's the situation Al's statement does not cover: Let's say you've passed that same clear signal and have a Clear cab signal. Soon thereafter, a train on a spur throws a switch and backs up onto the main into YOUR block. Or a rail breaks from the cold weather. Or the next signal is an interlocking signal that the block operator knocks down because of some emergency. _Were your train not there_, the signal you have passed would have changed to Stop-and-Proceed in the first 2 cases or to Approach in the 3rd case. Your cab signal will drop to match the appropriate aspect, and you have immediate warning. Without a cab signal, your first warning may not come for a mile or two when you finally see the signal (or train!) in front of you. As to knowing the aspect of the signal in front of you: you MIGHT know this from you cab signal, if the variables of the situation are sufficiently constrained. However, you cannot count on this. A caveat and an exception: Caveat: cab signals have a minimalist set of aspects; wayside signals have more. Thus, your cab signal aspect may not be _identical_ to the aspect of the wayside signal you passed. E.g. REstricting on a cab signal corresponded to Stop, Stop-and-Proceed, and Restricting (at least) on wayside signals. The precise relationships areshown in the PRR rulebook (if you don't have one, a web version is on my site). Exception: this is the one I can think of right now. Probably there are more. In advance of interlocking signals there were "code change points" where the cab signal would drop from Approach to Restricting. After passing such a code change point, the rule as I wrote it above does not work. Hope this helps. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:35:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Gang, I have been contacted by a company interested in entering the HO scale US brass market. Are there any PRR cabins that you think need to be done/redone in brass (super detailed, expensive...)? Don't tell me the N8, since it is coming from Rail Classics, hopefully. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:41:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine number 7298 Don, Loco Number 7298 was an H4 Class 2-8-0. Built late 1890's thru 1901. Pennsy Power says Radial Stay Firebox. I assume it looked much like the H3 but without Belpaire.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:45:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Bruce, I really think Cabin Cars have been beat to death. Geez, this company really want to do another? If so how about the X-23 Box Car converted to Cabin or possibly an odd ball PlyWood N6b.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:54:10 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Bob, > > I remember the name as one of many the PRR had, but I thought that > it was > used for non-railroad subsidiaries. Well, the Wheeling Coal RR may have counted as non-railroad by 1954. As I understand it, it was going to run along the washington-greene County line in SW Pa. SO far as I know, it was projected but nothing was ever graded (although there is a state road along part of the route which looks suspiciously straight and level). Perhaps there had been some land purchased? > For example, Manor Real Estate > was the > main PRR owner of non-railroad related land, I think I read somewhere that Manor owned coal lands in the area in question. Perhaps PennDel was aconvenient place to stash additional holdings? See your remark below. but there were at > least three > other companies used by the Pennsy to buy and sell real estate. > ...it did mean PRR could assemble land for a new > customer without driving up real estate prices, by buying each > tract under a different name! My personal suspicion is that the WCRR was intended as a stopper, to prevent B&O from building into the SW Pa. coal fields. I seem to recall that under Pa. law railroad can map out a route and thereby reserve that route for a few years without doing anything more than stating an intention to do the deed. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:04:09 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > Among other things, PennDel Co. owned the Delmarva Division of the > PRR. Hm. That's interesting. As I was looking up the valuation report on the NYP&N, I thought the relation to the PRR wasn't very clear. Perhaps PennDel was the vehicle by which PRR owned NYP&N? When did PennDel come into being, and when did it acquire the NYP&N? (The Pa Dept of State site is no help, as PennDel was a Delaware corporation.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:19:16 -0500 > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob said, " My personal suspicion is that the WCRR was intended as a stopper, to prevent B&O from building into the SW Pa. coal fields. I seem to recall that under Pa. law railroad can map out a route and thereby reserve that route for a few years without doing anything more than stating an intention to do the deed." Yup, PRR and B&O were REAL good at doing this to one another. When GM built the plant at Lordstown, PRR bought a ten foot wide strip of land for a mile along the highway between the B&O and the plant property from several farmers to keep the B&O out. But, GM said "bad boy!" and PRR had to sell the land to the B&O. When GM said "jump" the rr's said "how high?". OTOH, B&O owned the sidewalk in Baltimore between PRR tracks in the street and several industries. Gregg Mahlkov > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:13:57 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations --- Rob Schoenberg wrote: > There is a list of scales and their codes in the CT1000. > The scales section is on my website at: > http://prr.railfan.net/lists/track_scales_1923.html There's another list at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Scales/ That one has data from 1923, 1918, and 1900 CT1000's. Note that the scheme for the marks was different in 1900. Note also that the 1945 CT1000 (next one after 1923) didn't include that information. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] > > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:48 AM > > To: PRR Fax > > Cc: PRR Talk > > Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations > > > > > > Does anyone have a list of Pennsy reweigh locations. My > > understanding is they are the letter P followed by a number. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:24:47 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals - Was TrainSim signals, Nee: PRR Middle Division Re: Mark's cab signal comments The reverse situation could apply also when an passing an "Approach" signal and your carrying an "Approach" cab signal and the conditions ahead improve where you would now get a "Clear" on the cab. The situations you cover are addressed primarily in Rules 553-558. I would probably modify it to say. You carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until you get to the next signal, unless conditions within the block change. If you go by a "clear" the cab stays "clear" until the next signal, unless conditions in the block change. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Note: When approaching a signal where a code change point has been installed to the rear of the signal, then the cab signal will change to conform with the wayside at that code change point prior to passing the wayside. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Just a few additional comments on cab signals: The Long Island Rail Road's cab signals are/were compatible with the PRR's system; one interesting difference I recall, whereas the "clear" indication on the PRR was a position-light aspect (i.e., three vertical lights) I believe the LIRR's showed the letters, "MAS,' in green. I imagine this stood for "maximum allowable speed." When were cab signals first used on PRR or its subsidiaries, BTW? I believe the LIRR either installed or expanded its system after the two 1950 wrecks (Richmond Hill and Rockville Centre), or possibly added the automatic train stop feature at that time. And more recently, note that wayside block signals have been eliminated between Hudson and New York; movement is by cab signals alone. Fixed signals remain at interlockings (which with the installation of Swift a few years ago and now several interlockings at the new NJT Secaucus Transfer station aka Allied Junction, are now quite a few actually). And a bit off-topic, there is a fixed signal sometimes seen (not sure if there is an example on ex-PRR lines), a post with the letters "DIB." I think you find this leaving a passenger station which is also in the approach block to an interlocking; it stands for "Delayed in Block" and is a reminder to the engineman to run at slower speed until the next fixed signal. I think for some reason it only applies to push-pull trains; but the relevance here is it's not needed if cab signals are in service. The DIB signal was mandated after the MARC/Amtrak wreck several years ago, in which apparently the MARC engineer made a station stop and forget he was governed by the preceding Approach signal. Near here we had a DIB signal installed, then removed a year or so later (cab signals had then been installed). This is not on a PRR line. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Just a few additional comments on cab signals: > > The Long Island Rail Road's cab signals are/were compatible with > the PRR's system; one interesting difference I recall, whereas the > "clear" indication on the PRR was a position-light aspect (i.e., > three vertical lights) I believe the LIRR's showed the letters, "MAS,' > in green. I imagine this stood for "maximum allowable speed." > > When were cab signals first used on PRR or its subsidiaries, > BTW? I believe the LIRR either installed or expanded its system Look at http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Book_Errata_Pennsy_P5.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Favorite PRR models Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:29:39 -0500 Gregg: I have a Sony "Mavica" digital camera that is super easy to use. I got it on sale at Staples for under $200.00. See my reply from around November, to Gary Mitner about close up photography in this chat list. Also see the January MR "tips" for close up photos from any digital camera. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Claus Schlund" Cc: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Favorite PRR models > Claus and list, > > Yes, there are a few "gotchas" on the A5. First, I left everything below the > runningboards from the Rivarossi casting, as well as the front wall of the > cab from the Rivarossi casting. This, like the B6sb, is a metal casting. The > B6 boiler was also cut above the running board and in front of the cab and > then cut into three pieces to make the A5 boiler. A single lung air pump was > turned from brass as were various other details. Tomorrow I may try a > picture with the same lousy camera. > > BTW, while we're discussing cameras. Any suggestions for a good digital > camera around 200 bucks discount that will take good closeup pictures and > doesn't have "bells & whistles" I don't want like "videos". It just has to > download to a USB port. Claus, you can get a USB upgrade for Windows 95 > according to the USB card I installed in my computer. You might check with > Cyberguys at 1-800-892-1010 in Ranch Cucamonga. That's where I bought my > card over the internet. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > BTW, took a better pix and will send separate. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Claus Schlund" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:50 PM > Subject: Favorite PRR models > > > > Hey Gregg, > > > > > The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 > > > using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab > > > > This one sounds pretty cool! > > > > Were there any special "gotchas" to watch for? > > > > While I've not done so yet, I believe the trucks & > > underframe from the recently-released KATO caboose should be > > good to use in tenders for small steam such as this, since > > it provides all-wheel pickup. > > > > - Claus > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:37:08 -0500 Bruce: How about any of the N6 series? They haven't been done in some time. (I don't believe) Just a side note. I have never been a fan of spending brass type money on cabins, or any freight car for that matter. (especially when you can get some pretty nice plastic at very low prices) I have one, and one only, brass freight car which is a N5C. After Bowser came out with their plastic cabins, I really can't see why I would want anymore cabins in brass. When they're on the layout during a session, I just don't notice the difference. That's just an opinion, not to say that the rule of, "To each his own", doesn't apply. Being an owner of a large fleet of brass locomotives, I can certainly appreciate the value and quality of brass, but a $100.00 cabin,....no way! All that being said, I wish the manufacturer in question good luck. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass > Gang, > > I have been contacted by a company interested in entering the HO scale US > brass market. Are there any PRR cabins that you think need to be > done/redone in brass (super detailed, expensive...)? Don't tell me the > N8, since it is coming from Rail Classics, hopefully. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:53:44 -0500 I echo Larry's sentiments about brass cabin cars. I have one brass cabin, an N6. It doesn't run anywhere because of the weight, I have a problem with that much weight on the tail end of a train. The rest of the cars have to be "overweight" to keep from pulling them off on a tight, uphill curve when hauling a long freight. I would rather see (and buy) something unusual, such as a speeder or a delicate hand car etc. That would make a good eye-catching detail. Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals - Was TrainSim signals, Nee: PRR Middle Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:00:18 +0000 The LIRR installed their ASC or Automatic Speed Control in the 50s after those two wrecks mentioned in a previous reply. Instead of the 4 speed PRR/US&S system, ASC has several more aspects, which are different depending on the type of equipment you are in (same track codes, different speed limits). MU equiptment displays a 15, 30, 40, 60, 70 and 80 while the DE/DM equiptment (including the cab cars) have a 15, 30, 40, 55, 65 and 80. The LIRR just went nuts for Cab Signaling w/o wayside atomatic signals and the only line w/ Waysides is the Main Line between HAROLD and JAY. Other new installations off PRR style CSS w/o Waysides have been on the former Conrail Fort Wayne Line, Morristown Line, Cleveland Line and Boston Line (B&A), all of the Metro North main lines, the NJT extension to Hackettstown, the Amtrak Shore Line b/t New Haven and Boston and the NEC between HUDSON and A. The ability of cab signals to upgrade themselves between blocks gives sort of a partial moving block effect without the added cost. Also, on cab signaled lines there is a cab signal break about 1500 feet in advance of every home signal so that a train on approach will get a restricting as it gets close to the stop signal. > >The reverse situation could apply also when an passing an "Approach" >signal and your carrying an "Approach" cab signal and the conditions >ahead improve where you would now get a "Clear" on the cab. The >situations you cover are addressed primarily in Rules 553-558. > >I would probably modify it to say. > >You carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until you get to the >next signal, unless conditions within the block change. If you go by a >"clear" the cab stays "clear" until the next signal, unless conditions >in the block change. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN >changes to "approach." Note: When approaching a signal where a code >change point has been installed to the rear of the signal, then the cab >signal will change to conform with the wayside at that code change point >prior to passing the wayside. > >Al > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. List, Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost you to place on the layout. Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b will be too...... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:38:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hello Gary...... Are you guys talking about the new Rail Classics N8 cabin cars? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:07:43 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B5E0.CCEA3CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks, This foray seems perhaps a response to the success Overland and others have had in producing expensive (and beautiful) cabooses for many roads (ever see OMI's B&O I-15?). The diff for us PRR guys is that we have many cabins available in plastic, and some older (and cheaper ones) in brass that can be had for considerably less than $200. Granted, a state-of-the-art custom-painted N8 may be too much for some people to resist, given no pocketbook limitations. But I agree that the vast majority of us will have to pass. However, the market for expensive brass PRR items continues. The Railworks and Rail Classics brass flats are astounding. These are cars that will NEVER be offered in any other form, due to their structural complexity and lack of any other reasonable options. They also sell fairly well, based on the number that are no longer available! And BTW, a friend that stopped in at Bowser the other day was told that they will NOT produce the N8, despite the rumors to the contrary. I cannot state this as fact, only as the opinion of some folks that work there. Their reasoning is that the N5 did not sell that well; YOU may need a couple dozen X31's or H21,s but honestly how many N8's will you really buy, and the market continues to be for numerous freight (or other) prototypes. Just so you don't get your hopes too far up! Have a great week! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B5E0.CCEA3CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars.

Folks, This foray seems perhaps a response to the = success Overland and others have had in producing expensive (and = beautiful) cabooses for many roads (ever see OMI's B&O = I-15?).  The diff for us PRR guys is that we have many cabins = available in plastic, and some older (and cheaper ones) in brass that = can be had for considerably less than $200.  Granted, a = state-of-the-art custom-painted N8 may be too much for some people to = resist, given no pocketbook limitations.  But I agree that the = vast majority of us will have to pass.

        However, = the market for expensive brass PRR items continues.  The Railworks = and Rail Classics brass flats are astounding.  These are cars that = will NEVER be offered in any other form, due to their structural = complexity and lack of any other reasonable options.  They also = sell fairly well, based on the number that are no longer = available! 

        And BTW, a = friend that stopped in at Bowser the other day was told that they will = NOT produce the N8, despite the rumors to the contrary.  I cannot = state this as fact, only as the opinion of some folks that work = there.  Their reasoning is that the N5 did not sell that = well;  YOU may need a couple dozen X31's or H21,s but honestly how = many N8's will you really buy, and the market continues to be for = numerous freight (or other) prototypes.  Just so you don't get = your hopes too far up!

Have a great week!
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B5E0.CCEA3CC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:54:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:18:07 -0500 Howdy Guys: I too would echo Dave's reply! Modeling late PRR - we have plenty of plastic SD45, SD40, SD35, GP35, C628, C630, C425 and so on. All sorts of great plastic revenue and non-revenue rolling stock But no plastic N8s. - just like no plastic E44s!!? On my upcoming Columbia area layout I'll need at least 10 cabins, I've got 3 plastic and 3 brass - looks like the other 4 will be brass too. Just a note - I would buy at least 10 plastic N8s - for anybody that's watching. And I would pay up to $50.00 per cabin - if production had to be in limited quantities - with the same quality of the current N5 - that's still $500 less then what the brass will cost! So maybe if the economics work out to a run of about 5000 units @ 50 per ea - would the $250,000 be enough to cover the cost? Next question would be - can 5000 N8s be sold? Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:44:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Fwd: CT 353 assistance request I received the following from Jim Foley. He says he once was signed up for PRR-talk but had to drop out as the traffic was too much for his company e-mail. If you can help him out, please respond to him directly or CC him on a reply to this group. > From: "Foley, Jim" > Subject: CT 353 > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:31:45 -0500 > > Bob > > I recently purchased on e-Bay a 1924 CT 353 Routing guide (the > "checkerboard > book"), which was the Classification Clerks Bible on PRR for > decades as I am > sure you are aware. > > "Checkerboard" page # A3/4 (Groupings 13-36) is missing, and I am > wondering > if you might know someone who has a 353 that would be willing to > make a full > size page copy (top half-bottom half) of both pages for me ?? > > Would greatly appreciate any assistance. > jim_foley@csx.com ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 00:49:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy Guys: > I too would echo Dave's reply! > Modeling late PRR - we have plenty of plastic SD45, SD40, SD35, GP35, C628, > C630, C425 and so on. Sure. And there's a HO P2K SD45 coming this year also. > But no plastic N8s. Isn't bowser tooling this one now? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:53:20 -0500 List: Regarding brass PRR passenger cars, I must say that I DO believe in buying these since so many have been available over the years and NOT available in plastic. Well, OK, the Rivarossi duplex, OBS, 10-6 and RPO not withstanding, (and let's not forget the BCW horse cars), but there are many more passenger car versions desired by fans of PRR Blue Ribbon trains. Now, Walthers has announced a smooth side Imperial class car, scheduled in March. If it's anything like the quality of their most recent Budd cars, we could be in for some real fun. My hopes are that Walthers continues to expand their passenger car line. BTW, Walthers has also promised this 4-4-2 in Golden State livery for us modelers that like to run through cars. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: William Ayers To: Gary Mittner ; Lewis J. Matt PhD Cc: ; PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > List, > > I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that > kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only > one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for > $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the > Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not > had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains > with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be > pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the > train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the > brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. > -- > Bill Ayers > Remembering the PRR in Crestline > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > > > > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > > > List, > > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > > you to place on the layout. > > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > & > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:27:49 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Subject: Fw: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:41:25 -0500 From: "edmund burbage" To: "James McDaniel" May I correct you, they sold PART of The Delmarva Division, not the whole thing. Lee Burbage He's correct: I should have said the Delmarva Division from Pocomoke City, MD [south of Cassatt] to Little Creek including the trackage to connect with NS, CSX, the Portsmouth Beltline, etc. across the waters. What was/is north of Pocomoke became PC and then Conrail and now NS. A number of the Delmarva branches were spun off into other short lines or abandoned from the early 80s onward. I don't know exactly how the PRR bought the NYP&N but PRR took control via a stock purchase in the late teens at a great premium to AJ Cassatt and Tom Scott who owned much of the "Nip & N." PRR began painting PRR on everything and operating it as the PRR in 1920. I don't know when PennDel took over but I suspect it was part of the Penn Central mess when many pieces of real estate were spun off. Jim McDaniel, corrected in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:40:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: Balamer real estate? Balamer has an odd system of land ownership --I owned a row house there in the early 80's. The building and the land under it are often NOT owned by the same person/entity. In the older sections of the city, there is a system of "ground rents" whereby one person owns the land, and another owns the building sitting on it. The building owner pays a "ground rent" to the land owner in perpetuity who fortunately doesn't have any say of control over what the building owner does with his building. The building and the ground have separate deeds and are bought and sold independently of each other. Jim McDaniel, ex-Baltomoron, now owning both land and building in Virginia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:05:09 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Mt. Union PRR station Hello, everyone, I'm looking for a plan or drawing of the PRR station at Mt. Union that was on the original PRR alignment through the middle of Mt. Union. This was the station that was also used by the East Broad Top and became the EBT station when the PRR switched to their newer elevated alignment in the early twentieth century. Any suggestions? TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:33:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Larry, >Bruce: > >How about any of the N6 series? They haven't been done in some time. (I >don't believe) Railworks did the N6 series, although some foiks question how accurately . There are still quite a few of these on the market too... >Just a side note. I have never been a fan of spending brass type money on >cabins, or any freight car for that matter. (especially when you can get >some pretty nice plastic at very low prices) I have one, and one only, >brass freight car which is a N5C. After Bowser came out with their plastic >cabins, I really can't see why I would want anymore cabins in brass. When >they're on the layout during a session, I just don't notice the difference. >That's just an opinion, not to say that the rule of, "To each his own", >doesn't apply. Being an owner of a large fleet of brass locomotives, I can >certainly appreciate the value and quality of brass, but a $100.00 >cabin,....no way! I have to agree, but I think these guys are mainly looking for collectors (and think $200-$300, or more...since some recent HO freight cars have been in that range) . Since my reply to their first contact, they have indicated that they would be willing to consider other classes of cars as well. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:20:34 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Re; Balamer real estate --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > Balamer has an odd system of land ownership --I owned a row house > there > in the early 80's. The building and the land under it are often > NOT > owned by the same person/entity. > > In the older sections of the city, there is a system of "ground > rents" > whereby one person owns the land, and another owns the building > sitting > on it. The building owner pays a "ground rent" to the land owner in > perpetuity who fortunately doesn't have any say of control over > what > the building owner does with his building. The building and the > ground > have separate deeds and are bought and sold independently of each > other. Does sound odd, but there are some gotcha's in Pennsylvania law also. I was told of a court case in Indiana County some years ago in which the owner of an orchard filed charges of theft against folks who had been picking fruit from his trees along a highway. The defense was that the fruit had been picked from branches which hung out over the fence separating the highway right-of-way from the orchard. The county judge ruled that while there was a well-established right to do that when another's trees hung over one's land, in this case the state, and therefore the public, did not own any land but only the right to pass along the road, that is, right of way. The state did not own a right to stand on the land to pick fruit or any other purpose not connected with passage along the road. This same consideration arises often when all that a railroad owns is right of way. The railroad might not then have a right to build a building on that land. Another one, and this can be a bear, is the separate ownership of surface rights and mineral rights. Under Pa. law, the owner of the minerals is not obliged to provide vertical support to the surface. That is, if the Acme Coal Mining Co. removes the coal from under your house which then sinks a couple feet into the ground, it's your problem, not theirs. This came to issue a couple years ago when a piece of I-70 in Washington County sank 3 feet one day. PennDoT said that they had been offered the coal under the highway but had declined to purchase on the ground that fixing the road, should it come to that, would be less expensive than buying the coal. It did come to that and, last I heard, the road had been repaired. The ICC valuation hearings got involved in debating whether money spent to obtain coal under railroad rights of way was an expenditure chargable to property owned for common-carrier purposes. I don't recall in detail, but I think the ICC was of the opinion that the market value of coal was not closely related to the value of coal in place and so disallowed the charge. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:24:26 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. "BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic." This model goes for $50. After the parts needed to super detail it, and the time to paint it, it is well worth it to pick up a F-38 from Rail Classics. Also, I the trucks side frames are styrene. I know someone who ran the hell out of Eastern Car Works trucks, only to have the axles wear through the truck frame. It all depends on how bad you are willing to part with your money. Bowser cabins are very nice. Carving off the grab irons, applying your own with a trainphone antenna, paint, windows, and weathering, you have a great model. Most of all, 95% of viewers can tell the difference between the Bowser and Brass if done with accuracy. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:38:32 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. "95% of viewers can tell the difference ..." sorry, meant to say 95% cannot tell the difference. You get the point. Furthermore, to my knowledge, the Bowser N8 is on its way. Good things come to those who wait. How long has it been since BLI promoted the M class? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:24 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. "BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic." This model goes for $50. After the parts needed to super detail it, and the time to paint it, it is well worth it to pick up a F-38 from Rail Classics. Also, I the trucks side frames are styrene. I know someone who ran the hell out of Eastern Car Works trucks, only to have the axles wear through the truck frame. It all depends on how bad you are willing to part with your money. Bowser cabins are very nice. Carving off the grab irons, applying your own with a trainphone antenna, paint, windows, and weathering, you have a great model. Most of all, 95% of viewers can tell the difference between the Bowser and Brass if done with accuracy. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:51:14 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B66C.FD708C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bruce and Larry, Given the success of the Railworks flats, and presumably some of the Rail Classics cars, it seems there is a market for some of these specialized freight cars (and I am sure, passenger), even at the costs incurred today. I would hope that someone might consider some unusual cars, perhaps with loads, that would find a market with those looking to fill a certain niche. The Railworks G41/G41a did very well, and are now extremely hard to find on the market. That'd be a nice car to consider. And maybe some of the other more unusual gons that folks have an interest in like the G32b with horizontal corrugations, or the G42 with corrugations and a removable roof? Those OMI G32c's sold well and are now hard to find... How about one of the gons with skids and covers in coil steel service? That'd be cool. There are also some more flats that haven't been done, like the F41 (no, it really is not like the Tichy/Walthers Commonwelath flats, trust me...). There's the F41a with PRR-specific bulkheads. There's also some hoppers that haven't been done, like the H35. And how about some of the boxcars that have never been done. The X38's, X46, X50, X51, etc. come to mind. I guess the list is endless! I have to say that I'd like to see any of the above in resin, too. It certainly doesn't matter to me what form they are in. Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B66C.FD708C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass

Bruce and Larry,
Given the success of the Railworks flats, and = presumably some of the Rail Classics cars, it seems there is a market = for some of these specialized freight cars (and I am sure, passenger), = even at the costs incurred today.

I would hope that someone might consider some unusual = cars, perhaps with loads, that would find a market with those looking = to fill a certain niche.

The Railworks G41/G41a did very well, and are now = extremely hard to find on the market.  That'd be a nice car to = consider.  And maybe some of the other more unusual gons that = folks have an interest in like the G32b with horizontal corrugations, = or the G42 with corrugations and a removable roof?  Those OMI = G32c's sold well and are now hard to find...  How about one of the = gons with skids and covers in coil steel service?  That'd be = cool.

There are also some more flats that haven't been = done, like the F41 (no, it really is not like the Tichy/Walthers = Commonwelath flats, trust me...).  There's the F41a with = PRR-specific bulkheads.

There's also some hoppers that haven't been done, = like the H35.
And how about some of the boxcars that have never = been done.  The X38's, X46, X50, X51, etc. come to mind.
I guess the list is endless!
I have to say that I'd like to see any of the above = in resin, too.  It certainly doesn't matter to me what form they = are in.

Elden


------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B66C.FD708C50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:59:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. --part1_128.1f9ae6d4.2b4c6165_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/7/2003 7:06:12 AM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes: > Now, > Walthers has announced a smooth side Imperial class car, scheduled in March. > If it's anything like the quality of their most recent Budd cars, we could > be in for some real fun. My hopes are that Walthers continues to expand > their passenger car line. BTW, Walthers has also promised this 4-4-2 in > Golden State livery for us modelers that like to run through cars. > As I have pointed out before the initial smoothside Imperial car shown at Milwaukee Trainfest was a 1938 version with skirts removed. The Sante Fe fluted side version had skirts and would be appropriate for the run-through sleeper pre-1954, but I am not sure how extensively the deskirted version of the 1938 smoothsides were used. A Walthers rep said the postwar versions might follow depending on the success of the prewar cars. Bob Zoeller --part1_128.1f9ae6d4.2b4c6165_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/7/2003 7:06:12 AM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes:


Now,
Walthers has announced a smooth side Imperial class car, scheduled in March.
If it's anything like the quality of their most recent Budd cars, we could
be in for some real fun.  My hopes are that Walthers continues to expand
their passenger car line.  BTW, Walthers has also promised this 4-4-2 in
Golden State livery for us modelers that like to run through cars.


As I have pointed out before the initial smoothside Imperial car shown at Milwaukee Trainfest was a 1938 version with skirts removed.  The Sante Fe fluted side version had skirts and would be appropriate for the run-through sleeper pre-1954, but I am not sure how extensively the deskirted version of the 1938 smoothsides were used.
A Walthers rep said the postwar versions might follow depending on the success of the prewar cars.

Bob Zoeller --part1_128.1f9ae6d4.2b4c6165_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 18:06:56 -0500 From: jamesfclay Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Gary Minter said..... Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b will be too...... Gary Gary Do you have any more details on when the Pacific Mountain N6b may be released. I checked their website, no mention of an N6b in their upcoming product announcements. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:44:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. James, I just checked their website out also. Looks like they changed a bit since I checked in last. I sent an email to Allan to see what the status is on the N6b. Will report back when I hear something. ...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cars Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:15:21 -0500

With the new cars coming out, I am having a tough time remembering which plastic passenger cars are accurate for the Pennsy and for what era. Could someone please list which plastic passenger cars are accurate for the Pennsy and for what era? This would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric Lauterbach
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:54:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Hello Elden, You brought up the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what the price was for those cars. I've been looking for a few. I understand that the cars pop up on ebay from time to time. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:58:08 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2B687.19C6BBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I have been in the = background off and on for quite some years now. I am wondering if there = are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there for HO scale? I = am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of timeframe. My = questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era and before = freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this timeframe) = and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make some well = detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2B687.19C6BBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
It has been awhile since I have posted = on this=20 list.  I have been in the background off and on for quite some = years=20 now.  I am wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on = this list=20 out there for HO scale?  I am contemplating a move back to HO and = this type=20 of timeframe.  My questions are where do you obtain proper early = WW-II era=20 and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this=20 timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make = some=20 well detailed models of steam?  Thank you for any inputs you=20 have.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2B687.19C6BBD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:47:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Greetings Jeremy, Well, leaving aside for the moment the subject of Bowser steam locos, you're pretty well set up for freight cars of WW2 and earlier times. Bowser has their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. Their covered hopper would be too new. Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars, everybody's 1937 AAR box car is obviously usable (PS1's are too new as well). Athearn has several tank cars and a nice series of twin hoppers, also a quad hopper of B&O prototype; Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and tank car; all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in their greatly improved line; Accurail has a nice wood reefer and single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; MDC has a decent gondola and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check the year. Very nice model in any event. Whew, that just popped off the top of my head, so I imagine a tour through the Bowser and Walthers catalogs, and a few recent mags could really get a good wish list together. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:16:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union PRR station --part1_188.13d4e37b.2b4cf205_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the building is still standing (and in use). If a trip to Mt Union is feasible, you could get the data you seek from "the source"... Chris Baker --part1_188.13d4e37b.2b4cf205_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the building is still standing (and in use).  If a trip to Mt Union is feasible, you could get the data you seek from "the source"...

Chris Baker --part1_188.13d4e37b.2b4cf205_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:19:23 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_058C_01C2B692.73876A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brassHi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a = boxcar which had not been done. In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad = Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications = to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_058C_01C2B692.73876A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass
Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a = boxcar which=20 had not been done.  In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model = Craftsman=20 James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications to the P2K 50 = foot=20 doubledoor boxcar to make the X38.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_058C_01C2B692.73876A10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:29:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union PRR station --part1_1b8.bf2b8cb.2b4cf518_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris. I think the building you are referring to is the former Freight Station. The Old Line Psgr. station is gone. Pat McKinney --part1_1b8.bf2b8cb.2b4cf518_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris.
           I think the building you are referring to is the former Freight Station. The Old Line Psgr. station is gone.

Pat McKinney --part1_1b8.bf2b8cb.2b4cf518_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:30:29 -0500 Actually the Tichy gondola is WW2 vintage. Jeremy may I suggest that you also join the steam era freight car group on Yahoo if you aren't already a member. I am including a website below ha may interest you also. http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers > Greetings Jeremy, > Well, leaving aside for the moment the subject of Bowser steam locos, you're > pretty well set up for freight cars of WW2 and earlier times. Bowser has > their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 > cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. Their covered hopper would > be too new. > Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars, everybody's 1937 AAR > box car is obviously usable (PS1's are too new as well). Athearn has several > tank cars and a nice series of twin hoppers, also a quad hopper of B&O > prototype; Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and > tank car; all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable > cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in > their greatly improved line; Accurail has a nice wood reefer and > single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn > and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill > gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; MDC has a decent gondola > and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous > wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check > the year. Very nice model in any event. > Whew, that just popped off the top of my head, so I imagine a tour through > the Bowser and Walthers catalogs, and a few recent mags could really get a > good wish list together. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:53:03 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) --part1_169.18d95ebf.2b4cfa9f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't realize that attachments were forbidden on the PRR e-mail list, so I have imported a text file directly into this e-mail: Manufacturer Name-Description of Car PRR Class Pullman Plan Era Used AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs POS21 plan 4133 1948 - 1968 PRR had only 2 of these for trains 28-29 AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs plan 3959 1920's - 50's? PRR had only one of these as of 1950. Model is poorly executed AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12S-1DR Sleeper plan 3410B 1920's - 50's? AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 8S-1DR-2C Sleeper plan 3979A 1920's - 60's? model is poorly executed AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106 plan 9008 1949 - 1968 AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12Dup Rmt-5DBR Slpr PS125A plan 4066 1938 - 1968 AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106B plan 9503 1949 - 1968 similar to PRR cars, model is based upon UP prototype AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 56-seat Chair Car P85A 1941 - 1968 PRR had only 3 of these for use on the Southerner (SOU RY) AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Baggage - Mail Car BM70N 1910 - 1968 model is a hybrid of several similar PRR cars Bachmann - Spectrum Baggage - Coach PB70 1910 - 1968 Bachmann - Spectrum Coach P70 (various) 1910 - 1968 Bachmann - Spectrum Diner D78C 1910 - 1968 Bachmann - Spectrum Business Car Z74D 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Coach P70 (various) 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Express B60 (various) 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Mail Car M70b 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Coach PB70 1910 - 1968 Con-Cor 10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106B plan 9520 1948 - 1968 PRR had only one similar car (Silver Rapids) for transcontinental service in the California Zephyr. This is a poorly executed model Walthers 52-seat Chair Car P85eR 1947 - 1968 PRR owned 10 of these for service on the Silver Meteor (SAL Rwy) Walthers 1DR,29-seat Parlor PP85 1952 - 1968 PRR had 16 of these for service on the Congressionals and Senators Walthers Refrig Expr Car R50B Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car R50B Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car R7 *These manufacturers'products are plastic kits. All others are ready-to-run. --part1_169.18d95ebf.2b4cfa9f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't realize that attachments were forbidden on the PRR e-mail list, so I have imported a text file directly into this e-mail:

Manufacturer Name-Description of Car    PRR Class  Pullman Plan Era Used
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs POS21        plan 4133    1948 - 1968
PRR had only 2 of these for trains 28-29
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs           plan 3959 1920's - 50's?
PRR had only one of these as of 1950. Model is poorly executed
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12S-1DR Sleeper           plan 3410B 1920's - 50's?
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 8S-1DR-2C Sleeper                plan 3979A   1920's - 60's?
model is poorly executed
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper      PS106        plan 9008    1949 - 1968
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12Dup Rmt-5DBR Slpr PS125A      plan 4066    1938 - 1968
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper     PS106B      plan 9503    1949 - 1968
similar to PRR cars, model is based upon UP prototype
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 56-seat Chair Car     P85A             1941 - 1968
PRR had only 3 of these for use on the Southerner (SOU RY)
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Baggage - Mail Car BM70N            1910 - 1968
model is a hybrid of several similar PRR cars
Bachmann - Spectrum Baggage - Coach PB70             1910 - 1968
Bachmann - Spectrum Coach     P70 (various)           1910 - 1968
Bachmann - Spectrum Diner     D78C             1910 - 1968
Bachmann - Spectrum Business Car Z74D             1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Coach     P70 (various)           1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Express B60 (various)           1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Mail Car M70b             1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Coach PB70             1910 - 1968
Con-Cor     10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106B       plan 9520     1948 - 1968
PRR had only one similar car (Silver Rapids) for transcontinental service in the California Zephyr.  This is a poorly executed model
Walthers        52-seat Chair Car P85eR             1947 - 1968
PRR owned 10 of these for service on the Silver Meteor (SAL Rwy)
Walthers        1DR,29-seat Parlor PP85             1952 - 1968
PRR had 16 of these for service on the Congressionals and Senators
Walthers         Refrig Expr Car    R50B
Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car      R50B
Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car     R7

*These manufacturers'products are plastic kits.  All others are ready-to-run.
 --part1_169.18d95ebf.2b4cfa9f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 07:16:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Helix photos Jerry and list members, While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather interesting helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 07:58:45 -0500 For reference purposes, I purchased these models new in August 1993 for $129.95 each unpainted (decals included). Railworks R-173 G41 w/angled lids, Railworks R-174 G41a w/round lids. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:54 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass > Hello Elden, > > You brought up the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what > the price was for those cars. I've been looking for a few. I understand > that the cars pop up on ebay from time to time. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:33:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? --part1_54.6ab6b52.2b4d8294_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. When I had worked at Morrisville yard there was a piece of track going into Morrisville call the Old Line.The Old Line( as it is called and where the connection is today)comes from the east end of the Morrisville yd and heads down grade into Morrisville(sort of northward) behind the Pizza Hut and then begins to curve to the right(eastward towards the river) and head directly under the present day Delaware River Bridge to a customer. Not knowing how much of this is exactly the original Old Line,if you would have kept going straight and not go around the curve you would be headed very closely to where the present day roadway crosses the bridge from Morrisville to Trenton. I am NOTsaying that it DID do this only that the possibility exists for the Old Line to do this. The present day alignment as we know it does not make it feasible to use to Trenton to Morrisville road bridge. Can anyone else give some more details on the Old Line track connection and alignment to see if this was possible. I never heard that the bridge in question was a former PRR railroad bridge into Trenton. Pat McKinney --part1_54.6ab6b52.2b4d8294_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List.
        When I had worked at Morrisville yard there was a piece of track going into Morrisville call the Old Line.The Old Line( as it is called and where the connection is today)comes from the east end of the Morrisville yd and heads down grade into Morrisville(sort of northward) behind the Pizza Hut and then begins to curve to the right(eastward towards the river) and head directly under the present day Delaware River Bridge to a customer.
   Not knowing how much of this is exactly the original Old Line,if you would have kept going straight and not go around the curve you would be headed very closely to where the present day roadway crosses the bridge from Morrisville to Trenton. I am NOTsaying that it DID do this only that the possibility exists for the Old Line to do this. The present day alignment as we know it does not make it feasible to use to Trenton to Morrisville road bridge.
   Can anyone else give some more details on the Old Line track connection and alignment to see if this was possible. I never heard that the bridge in question was a former PRR railroad bridge into Trenton.

Pat McKinney --part1_54.6ab6b52.2b4d8294_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:52:08 +0000 This railroad was written up in one of the Model Railroad Planning books by Kalmbach (2002 I think). The guy even took Kato SD's and converted them to the water cars so he can pull prototype length trains. Not my cup of tea due to 99% of the traffic being coal but an impressive effort none the less. > Jerry and list members, > > While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my > signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is > related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner > has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather > interesting > helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: > http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:26:43 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers > Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I >have been in the background off and on for quite some years now. I am >wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there >for HO scale? I am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of >timeframe. My questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era >and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this >timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make >some well detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. > Jeremy Helms Welcome back Jeremy! Excellent era choice! I model June 1944, electric and steam. There are lots of great freight car models out there, although to be accurate, you need to be willing to build resin kits (which are lots of fun once you get past "Westerfear !) I have a listing of PRR car classes at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html The only significant absences from the top 15 classes are the X23 box (coming from Westerfield hopefully) and the H25 hopper. For this time period, you should have around 50% home road cars. For other cars look to the the IM and P2k ACF tank cars, upcoming Sunshine UTLX (X-3s I beleive) tanks, P2K stock cars, P2K Erie mill gons (the rest were post WWII), Kato and Bowser 2 bay hovered hoppers, some IM and RC reefers (PFE R40-10, R30-12-9). We expect an appropriate FGE reefer from IM shortly. Finally some of the new UP stuff from Marklin/Trix is good as well, just get the Trix and not Marklin as Trix has Kaydees and RP25 wheels. I can't believe the ______ (fill in the perjorative) at MR didn't mention THAT in their product review!! The keys to finding the right cars are: 1) Build date (branchline puts this on the box) 2) Reweight date (branchline puts this on the box?) 3) Appropriate scheme for your era Al Westerfield is by far the best at providing this info...If yo go to his web site, http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/, he lists the appropriate era for each VERSION of the car offered! Barry covered most of the PRR stuff, so I'll add some comments... >Bowser has >their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 >cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. The Bowser GS gon is "as built", prior to safety appliances. Better kits are available in resin, but on the other hand, you need lots of these (it ranks as class #4 in '43-45). >Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars Watch RC...the X29 is good, but they have a disturbing tendency to make up paint schemes. An example is their PRR FM flat car...it isn't even close to a PRR car, its a NYC car. Good FM models are available from F&C and Sunshine (better) >Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and >tank car; The Tichy tank is a model without a prototype - it was never built. Tishy also has a wood PFE reefer > all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable >cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in >their greatly improved line; Don't forget Sunshine's excellent line as well - harder to get, but worth it. >Accurail has a nice wood reefer and >single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn >and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill >gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; ECW models are notoriously bad for detail and casting. The 90 tn depressed center flat (I'm finishing one now) was owned by NYC, New Haven and Southern among others >MDC has a decent gondola >and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous >wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check >the year. The box is too new (sigh) I would second Brian's reccomendation of teh Steam Era freight Car list and also, check out the Steam Era Freight Car web site at: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:25:19 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B6EF.89743AD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeremy, Take a look at the resin offerings from Sunshine Models. Off the top of my head they have the X28a, X37, X37a, X37b, X41, G27, G29, GS, GSh, FM. F30, and a great group of FGEX cars, Pete Reinhold Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I have been in the background off and on for quite some years now. I am wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there for HO scale? I am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of timeframe. My questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make some well detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B6EF.89743AD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeremy,

=

 

   Take a look at the resin = offerings from Sunshine Models. Off the top of my head they have the X28a, X37, = X37a, X37b, X41, G27, G29, GS, GSh, FM. F30, and a = great group of FGEX cars,

 

Pete = Reinhold

Hello = all,

 

It has been awhile since I = have posted on this list.  I have been in the background off and on for = quite some years now.  I am wondering if there are any steam ear only = modelers on this list out there for HO scale?  I am contemplating a move = back to HO and this type of timeframe.  My questions are where do you obtain = proper early WW-II era and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models = proper to this timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point = to make some well detailed models of steam?  Thank you for any inputs = you have.

 

Jeremy = Helms

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B6EF.89743AD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:00:20 +0000 You need to get a copy of George Pierson's presentation given at the National Convention regarding modeling the PRR in the 20's. He just presented this to the Chicago Terminal chapter last Saturday and it is excellent (Thanks George!). It will give you a basis from where to extend the engines and equipment used a little earlier on the PRR. George is a regular contributor here so you should be able to contact him directly. > > Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I > >have been in the background off and on for quite some years now. I am > >wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there > >for HO scale? I am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of > >timeframe. My questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era > >and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this > >timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make > >some well detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. > > Jeremy Helms > > Welcome back Jeremy! > > Excellent era choice! I model June 1944, electric and steam. There are > lots of great freight car models out there, although to be accurate, you > need to be willing to build resin kits (which are lots of fun once you get > past "Westerfear !) I have a listing of PRR car classes at > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html The > only significant absences from the top 15 classes are the X23 box (coming > from Westerfield hopefully) and the H25 hopper. For this time period, you > should have around 50% home road cars. For other cars look to the the IM > and P2k ACF tank cars, upcoming Sunshine UTLX (X-3s I beleive) tanks, P2K > stock cars, P2K Erie mill gons (the rest were post WWII), Kato and Bowser 2 > bay hovered hoppers, some IM and RC reefers (PFE R40-10, R30-12-9). We > expect an appropriate FGE reefer from IM shortly. Finally some of the new > UP stuff from Marklin/Trix is good as well, just get the Trix and not > Marklin as Trix has Kaydees and RP25 wheels. I can't believe the ______ > (fill in the perjorative) at MR didn't mention THAT in their product > review!! > > The keys to finding the right cars are: > 1) Build date (branchline puts this on the box) > 2) Reweight date (branchline puts this on the box?) > 3) Appropriate scheme for your era > > Al Westerfield is by far the best at providing this info...If yo go to his > web site, http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/, he lists the appropriate > era for each VERSION of the car offered! > > Barry covered most of the PRR stuff, so I'll add some comments... > >Bowser has > >their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 > >cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. > > The Bowser GS gon is "as built", prior to safety appliances. Better kits > are available in resin, but on the other hand, you need lots of these (it > ranks as class #4 in '43-45). > > >Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars > > Watch RC...the X29 is good, but they have a disturbing tendency to make up > paint schemes. An example is their PRR FM flat car...it isn't even close > to a PRR car, its a NYC car. Good FM models are available from F&C and > Sunshine (better) > > >Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and > >tank car; > > The Tichy tank is a model without a prototype - it was never built. Tishy > also has a wood PFE reefer > > > all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable > >cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in > >their greatly improved line; > > Don't forget Sunshine's excellent line as well - harder to get, but worth it. > > >Accurail has a nice wood reefer and > >single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn > >and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill > >gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; > > ECW models are notoriously bad for detail and casting. The 90 tn depressed > center flat (I'm finishing one now) was owned by NYC, New Haven and > Southern among others > > >MDC has a decent gondola > >and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous > >wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check > >the year. > > The box is too new (sigh) > > I would second Brian's reccomendation of teh Steam Era freight Car list and > also, check out the Steam Era Freight Car web site at: > http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:39:07 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Bowser cabins This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_CyNgmH0d2k/i7IGt25o3BA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brassThe N-5c in N scale is in production at the moment. Bowsers HO scale N-8 is on hold for the time being. The N-8 is being discussed for the possible ways to go on various issues such as applied grab irons- plastic or metal. Kit or RTR form. Which ever way Bowser goes, I am sure it will be of quality. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hoxie Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:19 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar which had not been done. In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL --Boundary_(ID_CyNgmH0d2k/i7IGt25o3BA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass
The N-5c in N scale is in production at the moment.  Bowsers HO scale N-8 is on hold for the time being.   The N-8 is being discussed for the possible ways to go on various issues such as applied grab irons- plastic or metal.  Kit or RTR form.  Which ever way Bowser goes, I am sure it will be of quality.

Greg V
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hoxie
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:19 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass

Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar which had not been done.  In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
--Boundary_(ID_CyNgmH0d2k/i7IGt25o3BA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:50:30 -0700 Barry and all, The Athearn tank car really isn't all that good...in reality the single dome car is the triple dome car with the outer two domes blanked off. If you can find some of the LL/P2k 8 or 10k kits they are more typical of the era. Don't forget that Tichey offers a USRA boxcar kit, which were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used to make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield still offers theirs. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:37:54 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B734.4AC852E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks, Jerry, And if you can find one now, they tend to be $150+. Unfortunately, the decals are not good for the car. Hopefully someone is addressing this issue as we speak. Regardless, Railworks ought to think about doing an upgraded version of this car. It was very popular with the buyers. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Breon [mailto:jbreon@email.msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:59 AM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41 For reference purposes, I purchased these models new in August 1993 for $129.95 each unpainted (decals included). Railworks R-173 G41 w/angled lids, Railworks R-174 G41a w/round lids. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:54 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass > Hello Elden, > > You brought up the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what > the price was for those cars. I've been looking for a few. I understand > that the cars pop up on ebay from time to time. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B734.4AC852E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41

Thanks, Jerry,
And if you can find one now, they tend to be = $150+.  Unfortunately, the decals are not good for the car.  = Hopefully someone is addressing this issue as we speak.

Regardless, Railworks ought to think about doing an = upgraded version of this car.  It was very popular with the = buyers.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Breon [mailto:jbreon@email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:59 AM
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; ELDEN GATWOOD; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41


For reference purposes, I purchased these models new = in August 1993 for
$129.95 each unpainted (decals included). Railworks = R-173 G41 w/angled lids,
Railworks R-174 G41a w/round lids.
Jerry Breon
Reading, PA

----- Original Message -----
From: <zootowerprr@webtv.net>
To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" = <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass


> Hello Elden,
>
>      You brought up = the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what
> the price was for those cars. I've been looking = for a few. I understand
> that the cars pop up on ebay from time to = time.
>
> Dave
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B734.4AC852E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:49:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N Scale X38's from InterMountain From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement... Among the monthly announcements from InterMountain are a run of PRR X38 50' AAR double door box cars in Circle Keystone livery lettered for "AUTOMOBILES". These are ready-to-run cars and 12 road numbers are being issued. The suggested retail price is $18.95 per car. These cars will ship in late January. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:06:35 -0800 Nick, This layout was featured on page 76 of Model Railroad Planning 2002. The helix design is very unusual. Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:16 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Helix photos Jerry and list members, While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather interesting helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Lines West H4 7298 Don, list, Lines West H4 7298was built by Baldwin as PFW&C 298 in August 1900. She was renumbered to 7298 in 1902. She was sold for scrap in June, 1923. H4 specifications: 22 x 28 cylinders, 56 inch drivers, 205 pounds of steam pressure, total weight of 179,000 pounds and a tractive effort of 42,168 pounds. All of the above information comes from Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster. Pennsy Power 3 lists the engines as having Belpaire fireboxes and 33.33 square feet of grate area. I don't know of any photos online, but Pennsy Steam: A Second Look, by Paul Carleton, has a nice shot of an H4 engine on page 64. Doug --- Don Millbranth wrote, in part: > Greetings.. > I would appreciate learning the class of an old > Pennsylvania Lines engine number.7298. Also, are there any photos of this engine on line? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? More on the Morrisville (PA) area, I am staring at a Hagstrom county map of Mercer County; it shows the alignment of what Pat calls the Old Line (also called this on a 1930s PRR schematic map of Trenton area trackage, in Down Along the Old Bel Del, p. 26-27). Anyway, the Old Line alignment, per the Hagstrom map, runs along the Pennsylvania Canal, swinging northeast and away from the Main Line; crosses (the new) Route 1; then swings a little to the east, away from the canal, and vanishes . ... but on an approximate alignment which would bring it onto Bridge St (old Route 1, now called Alt 1 on the map), which leads to the Trenton Makes bridge. This seems to support the assertion that the highway bridge may be an old PRR bridge, or constructed in its place! On the Hagstrom map, there is no track for a few blocks, but the industrial track reappears again further south, where the present rail bridge stands, and continues further south along the river. This line is clearly connected to the Old Line on the PRR 1930s map, as I imagine it still is today. But the Hagstrom map has omitted it in a populated area of many streets. The 1930s schematic map also shows spurs off the Old Line/industrial track in the "downtown" Morrisville area, including one spur to the north, and one to the south . . . leading to a sub- station, it seems to indicate. And coincidentally, NJ Transit has what I guess is a holiday exhibit in their new 7th Avenue concourse at NY Penn Station, it consists of several animated "floats" moving around an oval; they seem to portray the evolution of New Jersey history; the first one is a contraption which seems to have the king of England (?) sitting on a float made principally of . . . the Trenton Makes bridge! I just saw this last night. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:45:09 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B746.11F6B5D0 Content-Type: text/plain http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ This is a good photo for those of you who have not seen the bridge in question. I personally believe this bridge to be part of the old King's highway from Philadlephia to Trenton. Kenneth W. Nesbitt -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:31 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? More on the Morrisville (PA) area, I am staring at a Hagstrom county map of Mercer County; it shows the alignment of what Pat calls the Old Line (also called this on a 1930s PRR schematic map of Trenton area trackage, in Down Along the Old Bel Del, p. 26-27). Anyway, the Old Line alignment, per the Hagstrom map, runs along the Pennsylvania Canal, swinging northeast and away from the Main Line; crosses (the new) Route 1; then swings a little to the east, away from the canal, and vanishes . ... but on an approximate alignment which would bring it onto Bridge St (old Route 1, now called Alt 1 on the map), which leads to the Trenton Makes bridge. This seems to support the assertion that the highway bridge may be an old PRR bridge, or constructed in its place! On the Hagstrom map, there is no track for a few blocks, but the industrial track reappears again further south, where the present rail bridge stands, and continues further south along the river. This line is clearly connected to the Old Line on the PRR 1930s map, as I imagine it still is today. But the Hagstrom map has omitted it in a populated area of many streets. The 1930s schematic map also shows spurs off the Old Line/industrial track in the "downtown" Morrisville area, including one spur to the north, and one to the south . . . leading to a sub- station, it seems to indicate. And coincidentally, NJ Transit has what I guess is a holiday exhibit in their new 7th Avenue concourse at NY Penn Station, it consists of several animated "floats" moving around an oval; they seem to portray the evolution of New Jersey history; the first one is a contraption which seems to have the king of England (?) sitting on a float made principally of . . . the Trenton Makes bridge! I just saw this last night. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B746.11F6B5D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?

http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/

This is a good photo for those of you who have not = seen the bridge in question.     I personally = believe this bridge to be part of the old King's highway from = Philadlephia to Trenton.


Kenneth W. Nesbitt


-----Original Message-----
From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:31 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge = to Trenton?


More on the Morrisville (PA) area,

I am staring at a Hagstrom county map of Mercer = County; it shows
the alignment of what Pat calls the Old Line (also = called this on a
1930s PRR schematic map of Trenton area trackage, in = Down
Along the Old Bel Del, p. 26-27). 

Anyway, the Old Line alignment, per the Hagstrom map, = runs
along the Pennsylvania Canal, swinging northeast and = away from
the Main Line; crosses (the new) Route 1; then = swings a little to
the east, away from the canal, and vanishes . ... = but on an
approximate alignment which would bring it onto = Bridge St (old
Route 1, now called Alt 1 on the map), which leads = to the Trenton
Makes bridge.  This seems to support the = assertion that the
highway bridge may be an old PRR bridge, or = constructed in its
place!  On the Hagstrom map, there is no track = for a few blocks,
but the industrial track reappears again further = south, where the
present rail bridge stands, and continues further = south along the
river.  This line is clearly connected to the = Old Line on the PRR
1930s map, as I imagine it still is today.  But = the Hagstrom map
has omitted it in a populated area of many = streets. 

The 1930s schematic map also shows spurs off the Old =
Line/industrial track in the "downtown" = Morrisville area, including
one spur to the north, and one to the south . . . = leading to a sub- station, it seems to indicate.

And coincidentally, NJ Transit has what I guess is a = holiday exhibit
in their new 7th Avenue concourse at NY Penn = Station, it consists
of several animated "floats" moving around = an oval; they seem to
portray the evolution of New Jersey history; the = first one is a
contraption which seems to have the king of England = (?) sitting on
a float made principally of . .  . the Trenton = Makes bridge!   I just
saw this last night.

John Bobsin 

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B746.11F6B5D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:18:28 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Bill & folks, Yes, I've read that the Athearn single dome is a weirdo, with a very large capacity and too small a dome for that much expansion postential. Having been based on the three dome car(who's domes would be adequte, by the way)would explain it's too-small size. But I think the three dome and insulated ("chemical")tank car are pretty fair for their price. The other extreme, sizewise, would be the MDC 'old timer' tank car of about 4,000 gallons. Despite it's decrepid appearence, this is another good car for c1940 usage. Perhaps the best single source of freight car info, with built dates, etc, is the Berkshire Lines Freight Car Guides. Even if the book isn't available any longer, the NEB&W website offers pretty much the same info. I don't have the RPI website address any longer, and I think they've begun charging a nominal fee for monthly access, but still a might good asset for building a freight car fleet. Perhaps someone could advise? In any event, make sure wooden box cars dominate the offline cars if you're going to do prewar. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:50:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] Helix photos Very interesting photo. My own main helix in HO is fairly conventional, about 4-inch rise per revolution, 28-inch minimum radius (on the inside of 2 and sometimes 3 tracks); and in restrospect I now suspect that my "conventional" design is pushing it, in terms of the grade and curvature. I had speculated that an oval-shaped "helix" would be more successful, reducing the grade; in fact you could make the grade steeper on the straight legs and less steep on the curves, dunno if "Pocohontas Division" did this, but he's certainly done the oval concept in fine style! Just speculating, but N must be harder than HO, since fingers and the thickness of the subroadbed don't tend to scale down. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:50:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? 0100,0100,0100Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, 0000,8000,0000http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/0100,0100,0100 is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? John Bobsin0000,8000,0000 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trenton Bridge Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:58:22 +0000 I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves otherwise will gladly retract my statement. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:08:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos From: Jerry Britton On 1/8/03 2:50 PM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote: > Very interesting photo. My own main helix in HO is fairly > conventional, about 4-inch rise per revolution, 28-inch minimum > radius (on the inside of 2 and sometimes 3 tracks); and in > restrospect I now suspect that my "conventional" design is pushing > it, in terms of the grade and curvature. I had speculated that an > oval-shaped "helix" would be more successful, reducing the grade; > in fact you could make the grade steeper on the straight legs and > less steep on the curves, dunno if "Pocohontas Division" did this, > but he's certainly done the oval concept in fine style! Just > speculating, but N must be harder than HO, since fingers and the > thickness of the subroadbed don't tend to scale down. > Yes and No regarding N scale. You do still need about four inches clearance from rail head to rail head. At first thought you might think an N scale helix can be 1/2 the diameter of an HO scale helix (1:87 vs. 1:160) but it doesn't work out that way. Since you need to climb 4" per rotation, what might be a comfortable radius in HO scale (22") scaled down by 50% to 11" would have to have an enormous grade in order to rise 4" per turn! On my N scale helix I made the innermost track at 22.5". If I recall, the grade is just over 2% for the 4" per turn rise. The helix has five tracks, rising 3.5 turns. The outermost track has a very comfortable grade. I've pulled two dozen cars up the grade with only one loco running at less that 50% power (though from a running start!). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:19:00 -0900 It's computer generated. That applet which generates the water ripples is one of earliest Java applets. If the water level were lower, you'd see the piers keeping the bridge up rippling too. waaay offtopic, -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? > Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, > > http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ > > is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? > > John Bobsin > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:19:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge. On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular > bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR > entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at > Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases > that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to > an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. > Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch > bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original > location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that > the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves > otherwise will gladly retract my statement. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:30:43 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA > shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge. Ah, here we are: www.drjtbc.com/bridges/tollsupported.htm "As a result of floods reaching a level higher than expected during the construction period, the masonry was raised to a new high level. Because of this precaution, the bridge was not swept away during the 1841 flood that destroyed five other bridges over the Delaware north of Trenton. Several years later, the bridge was remodeled to permit passage of locomotives and became the first bridge in the United States to be used for interstate railroad traffic." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:54:12 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Barry sez: >Yes, I've read that the Athearn single dome is a weirdo, with a very large >capacity and too small a dome for that much expansion postential. Having >been based on the three dome car(who's domes would be adequte, by the >way)would explain it's too-small size. But I think the three dome and >insulated ("chemical")tank car are pretty fair for their price. The Athearn single dome can be fixed to represent a 12,500 gallon SP protoype with some carving and a new IM dome but its a lot of work (Richard Hendrickson published this a few years back). The insulated tank is a post war prototype. >The other extreme, sizewise, would be the MDC 'old timer' tank car of >about 4,000 gallons. Despite it's decrepid appearence, this is another >good car for c1940 usage. The only problem with the car is the oversized underframe...which reminds me that the very similar frameless "Van Dyke" tank car can be had as a kit from Precision - get the one with brass parts (and get the HO, not HON3 kit)! >Perhaps the best single source of freight car info, with built dates, etc, >is the Berkshire Lines Freight Car Guides. Even if the book isn't >available any longer, the NEB&W website offers pretty much the same info. >I don't have the RPI website address any longer, and I think they've begun >charging a nominal fee for monthly access, but still a might good asset >for building a freight car fleet. Perhaps someone could advise? http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/index.asp You pay $5.00 for a month - a VERY good deal considering the info. Otherwise, since the web is never dead, check out the archived FREE version of the site (circa 6/01) site at: http://web.archive.org/web/20010604034236/www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/ Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:19:24 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_nwlVw6btBr21OL67c7Q7lw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The water is much lower. That area of the Delaware River at times (drought, summer) can be crossed on foot. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:50 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --Boundary_(ID_nwlVw6btBr21OL67c7Q7lw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
The water is much lower.  That area of the Delaware River at times (drought, summer) can be crossed on foot.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:50 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?

Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted,

http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/

is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware?

John Bobsin









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
--Boundary_(ID_nwlVw6btBr21OL67c7Q7lw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:35:12 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge --------------080609030507040407080401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge. The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here. Derrick J Brashear wrote: >http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA >shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge. > >On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > >>I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular >>bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR >>entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at >>Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases >>that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to >>an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. >>Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch >>bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original >>location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that >>the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves >>otherwise will gladly retract my statement. >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >. > > > --------------080609030507040407080401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg

Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge.
The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here.

Derrick J Brashear wrote:
http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA

shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge.



On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote:



  
I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular 

bridge as soon as I get a chance.  It stands to reason that when the PRR 

entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at 

Trenton.  Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day.  In most cases 

that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to 

an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. 

Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch 

bridge.  I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original 

location or site of the bridge.  So for now I will stand by my statement that 

the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves 

otherwise will gladly retract my statement.  



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



    




-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



.

--------------080609030507040407080401-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:35:51 -0500 Nick: This was in last year's Model RR Planning. Truly a beauty. This is the best example of staging that I've ever seen. Makes one want to start all over again. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Kulp To: PRR-Talk Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:16 AM Subject: [PRR] Helix photos > Jerry and list members, > > While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my > signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is > related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner > has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather interesting > helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: > http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:45:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos My helix, the inside track is 28 inch radius, four inches rise per turn, works out to 2.2%. 22.5" radius works out to 2.9%, my calculator says. I recently tried backing a train up the grade, that is, engines pushing; this was maybe a 12 car train. With very little encouragement, half the train fell over to the outside of the curve. Hel-lo! (The tracks are not superelevated, which no doubt makes a great difference in such behavior -- pushing. But banking might make trains fall toward the inside when pulling uphill!) Just evidence that this is a pretty tough grade/hill even for models. Clearing derailments in such restricted space is no picnic. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:57:55 -0500 Did the Pennsy ever paint their wood water tanks? If so, what color please. In all of the color photos I can find one in they are just plain soot colored. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:59:44 -0500 John: Are your couplers body mounted? This grade, 2.2% with a twelve car train, should not be a problem when pushing, unless you have truck mounted couplers. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos > My helix, the inside track is 28 inch radius, four inches rise per > turn, works out to 2.2%. 22.5" radius works out to 2.9%, my > calculator says. > > I recently tried backing a train up the grade, that is, engines > pushing; this was maybe a 12 car train. With very little > encouragement, half the train fell over to the outside of the curve. > Hel-lo! (The tracks are not superelevated, which no doubt makes a > great difference in such behavior -- pushing. But banking might > make trains fall toward the inside when pulling uphill!) Just > evidence that this is a pretty tough grade/hill even for models. > > Clearing derailments in such restricted space is no picnic. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:19:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. James, List, I just heard back from Pacific Mountain concerning their previously announced N6b. Here is Allan's reply: ("Lack of drawings, information and demand has put the N6b on indefinite hold", Allan ) Well, it looks like we need to wait for another comapny to release an affordable N6b. Once an item is put on hold, it usually dosn't get produced. As per their website, they will produce anything in Resin, make masters, molds, etc. So if anyone wants to tackle the N6b on their own, they, Pacific Mountain can help produce it. I wish I could have produced my 1:29th N6b in resin but it was just to complicated and more or less all hand built. An HO version could be done, I just don't know how to go about doing it or have the funds to back me up...Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:44:56 -0500 Frank, I was under the impression that the wood sides of PRR water tanks were painted gray - believe I saw a shot of one on the line between Elmira & Sodus point that was freshly painted at one time. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "parkvarieties" To: "PRR- Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks > Did the Pennsy ever paint their wood water tanks? If so, what color please. > In all of the color photos I can find one in they are just plain > soot colored. Thanks. > Frank Brua > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:49:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Re: my train which fell over outward pushing 12 cars up 2% 28" radius (HO); no, all the couplers are body-mounted. I don't think it fell over of its own volition, but I just touched it lightly and it did so. It seemed very unstable. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:19:50 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos John/all: I routinely push 20 to 25 car trains up a 2.1% grade (1 inch in 4 feet) with 30" radius while re-staging with no problems... However, all my couplers are body-mounted AND I make sure all of my cars are at the NMRA recommeded weights or a little heavier. Furthermroe, whenever possible, I try to put the weight low in the car, directly over the trucks... I also use all metal wheels... Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Steam books Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:12:21 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0155_01C2B763.04092A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am writing again to kind of see if there is available anywhere out = there a listing of good books on PRR steam. I have recently obtained = excellent quality used copies of Paul Carleton's books on Pennsy steam A = to T and second look. I would imagine there are others out there also = but I do not want to get books that are really heavy on diesel coverage. Also in a response to a previous post I had submitted someone had = suggested Sunshine models for resin kits, is there an address for them = to get a product listing? Thanks for any help on either of these two = questions. All submissions have helped immensely. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_0155_01C2B763.04092A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
I am writing again to kind of see if = there is=20 available anywhere out there a listing of good books on PRR steam.  = I have=20 recently obtained excellent quality used copies of Paul Carleton's books = on=20 Pennsy steam A to T and second look.  I would imagine there are = others out=20 there also but I do not want to get books that are really heavy on = diesel=20 coverage.
 
Also in a response to a previous post I = had=20 submitted someone had suggested Sunshine models for resin kits, is there = an=20 address for them to get a product listing?  Thanks for any help on = either=20 of these two questions.  All submissions have helped=20 immensely.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_0155_01C2B763.04092A30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 23:33:13 -0500 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics N-8 Cabin Car Pilot Samples Hello All: We at Rail Classics will post photos of our N-8 Cabin Car Pilot Samples this weekend see them on our Web Site www.railclassics.com Take a look and let us know your input. Thank you for your support, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:24:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks In a message dated 1/8/03 6:05:09 PM Central Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << Did the Pennsy ever paint their wood water tanks? If so, what color please. In all of the color photos I can find one in they are just plain soot colored. >> I believe they were painted the standard structure colors. George M mentions gray, but I have seen several which appear to be painted the light building color, which I used to match with a 50-50 mix of Pollyscale Military Khaki and white, but now just use Aged Concrete. Certainly faded, weathered, and covered with soot in many cases. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam books Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:30:11 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06AC_01C2B776.45494990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeremy--I strongly recommend Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1, 2, and 3 from = Morning Sun Books. Very little diesel. For Sunshine, you can find a = listing at=20 http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ . Just a little ways down under = "What's New" you will find Sunshine All-Kit List. Sunshine does not = have a web site. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_06AC_01C2B776.45494990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeremy--I strongly recommend Pennsy = Steam Years=20 Vol. 1, 2, and 3 from Morning Sun Books.  Very little diesel.  = For=20 Sunshine, you can find a listing at
http://www.steamfreightcars.com= / . =20 Just a little ways down under "What's New" you will find Sunshine = All-Kit=20 List.  Sunshine does not have a web site.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_06AC_01C2B776.45494990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:04:30 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/09/03 RE: PRR Water tanks FROM: Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com I can remember three PRR wooden water tanks from the Allegheny Valley Branch and they all appeared to be unpainted wood. The tannish-gray color (kinda mushroom color) used on depots had a tendency after years of wear to look like unpainted wood from a distance but once examined closely was actually the paint with grime and soot embedded into it. This may be the case with the water tanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:50:34 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge --0-1084205998-1042116634=:99563 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for the photo. Randy Harrison Chris Brandt wrote:http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge. The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here. Derrick J Brashear wrote: http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PAshows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge.On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves otherwise will gladly retract my statement. -----------------------------------------------------------------------For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -----------------------------------------------------------------------For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1084205998-1042116634=:99563 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks for the photo.

Randy Harrison

 Chris Brandt <cobrandt@eclipse.net> wrote:

http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg

Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge.
The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here.

Derrick J Brashear wrote:
http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA

shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge.



On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote:



  
I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular 

bridge as soon as I get a chance.  It stands to reason that when the PRR 

entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at 

Trenton.  Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day.  In most cases 

that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to 

an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. 

Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch 

bridge.  I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original 

location or site of the bridge.  So for now I will stand by my statement that 

the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves 

otherwise will gladly retract my statement.  



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



    




-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1084205998-1042116634=:99563-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: [PRR] pictures of x43B. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:28:46 -0000 List, A happy new year to you and yours. I'm just started to build a Branchline X43B but I have only been able to find two photo's, in pt 1 & 2 of PRR Colour Guide. Anyone on the list know of the whereabouts of other pictures of this car in 'as built' condition. Any help would be most appreciated. Kind regards, James. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Front end cars Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:57:12 +0000 For cars to be used in regular pasenger service they need a steam line so the steam can be passed through to the passenger cars. From that I would assume (always dangerous) that any car at the front end of a passenger train was thus equipped. Yet there are many pictures of what appear to be standard cars used at the front end. Is that why mail cars had a stove in some cases? I remember riding the Duquense from Lancaster to Philadelphia on several occasions where the head end casr outnumbered the passenger cars. They would all have had to have steam connections. Correct? Were there any other lines like a signal line that needed to be added? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:32:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Helix Calculations From: Jerry Britton In yesterday's discussion, I mentioned my innermost helix track as having a radius of 21.5" and a rise of 4" per turn, resulting in a grade just over 2%. Another lister did the math and came up with a 2.9% grade. Turns out my memory was failing. My innermost track has a radius of 25.5", a 51" diameter, or roughly a run of 166", or a run of 41.5" per rise of 1", or a grade of roughly 2.4%. By comparison, the outermost track has a radius of 31.5", which translates to a grade of 1.9%. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:04:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:26:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 10:04 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut > off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound > trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the > freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel > and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front > would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the > Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West > of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ Most helpers cut off at UN, the tower just west of the tunnels. Others went as far as MO, the interlocking just a mile or two west, at Cresson. There was no need for helpers to remain on through Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] pictures of x43B. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:32:55 -0600 Hi James--You asked-- > > I'm just started to build a Branchline X43B but I have only been able to > find two photo's, in pt 1 & 2 of PRR Colour Guide. > > Anyone on the list know of the whereabouts of other pictures of this car in > 'as built' condition. > The Keystone Fall 1987 page 6 has a photo of an X43b. In Pennsy Power III on page 412 there is a photo of an X43a which differed from the "b" only by having Youngstown instead of Superior doors and welded side panels instead of riveted. Right below that photo is an X43b, but in the later Shadow Keystone scheme. If you come across a photo of an X43--no a, b, or c--please let us know. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Front end cars Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:09:13 -0500 You are correct. All X-29 type cars on the front end of passenger trains had steam connectors and signal lines. If they inadvertently cut the train and not the steam connector, the connector usually got yanked out with the break often back along the center sill. My first supervisory job was as a Gang Foreman at Penn Coach Yard in Philadelphia and my guys repaired many a steam trainline on those head end cars as well as the coaches and business cars. If a steam line got yanked out on the road, they would move the errant car to the rear of the train so as to allow the passengers to stay warm. Bill Volkmer (been there, done that, on the late great PRR) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:57 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Front end cars For cars to be used in regular pasenger service they need a steam line so the steam can be passed through to the passenger cars. From that I would assume (always dangerous) that any car at the front end of a passenger train was thus equipped. Yet there are many pictures of what appear to be standard cars used at the front end. Is that why mail cars had a stove in some cases? I remember riding the Duquense from Lancaster to Philadelphia on several occasions where the head end casr outnumbered the passenger cars. They would all have had to have steam connections. Correct? Were there any other lines like a signal line that needed to be added? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:34:25 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Mark- Diesel helpers, along with steam cut off just after exiting the portals. Then crossed over from no. 4 track to no. 3 track. After UN, engines switched left onto the loop-around track where they enter the Mainline eastbound onto track 3at AR for the return to Altoona. On the 2 loop tracks was a diesel servicing facility. Steam was serviced there prior to. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:27 AM To: Mark Lehman; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope On 1/9/03 10:04 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut > off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound > trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the > freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel > and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front > would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the > Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West > of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ Most helpers cut off at UN, the tower just west of the tunnels. Others went as far as MO, the interlocking just a mile or two west, at Cresson. There was no need for helpers to remain on through Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:20:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back to tracks 1&2? Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and diesel helpers?--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:50:05 -0500 Hi Guys, Given the responce to Mark's question seems to only address freight helpers on the REAR of the train. I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of passenger trains, therefore the helper engine(s) would be ahead of the road engine on the train. To re-state Mark's question, how was this situation addressed? Did the train stop somewhere, or did the helper accompany the train to the next station and cut off there?? I would think cutting off a head-end helper while under-way would be extremely dangerous, if not damn near impossible. Inquiring minds want to know. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:34 AM To: Jerry Britton; Mark Lehman; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Mark- Diesel helpers, along with steam cut off just after exiting the portals. Then crossed over from no. 4 track to no. 3 track. After UN, engines switched left onto the loop-around track where they enter the Mainline eastbound onto track 3at AR for the return to Altoona. On the 2 loop tracks was a diesel servicing facility. Steam was serviced there prior to. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:27 AM To: Mark Lehman; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope On 1/9/03 10:04 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut > off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound > trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the > freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel > and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front > would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the > Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West > of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ Most helpers cut off at UN, the tower just west of the tunnels. Others went as far as MO, the interlocking just a mile or two west, at Cresson. There was no need for helpers to remain on through Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Station Platform Removal Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:57:20 -0500 Can anyone tell me when the station platform east of AR tower in the Altoona area was removed? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:01:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 12:50 PM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > > Given the responce to Mark's question seems to only address freight helpers > on the REAR of the train. > I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of passenger > trains, therefore the helper > engine(s) would be ahead of the road engine on the train. To re-state Mark's > question, how was this > situation addressed? Did the train stop somewhere, or did the helper > accompany the train to the next > station and cut off there?? I would think cutting off a head-end helper > while under-way would be > extremely dangerous, if not damn near impossible. > Inquiring minds want to know. > I "believe" they stopped the train at UN. Any location would require a stop to cut off extra power up front. But remember, passenger trains were relatively short. Stopping short of the UN loop track would still allow the entire train to be west of the tunnels. Also worth noting is that, until circa 1940's, trains still stopped at Gallitzin station. The power could cut off while the train was at the station. At some point in the 1950's, an ABA set of E units was probably enough power for any passenger train so a helper would not have been needed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:10:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Station Platform Removal From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 12:57 PM, parkvarieties (parkvarieties@provide.net) wrote: > Can anyone tell me when the station platform east of AR tower in > the Altoona area was removed? Thanks. Sounds like you are referring to the eastbound station platform at Gallitzin? Don't know when they were removed, but passenger service there stopped before the 1950's. You can still locate where the platforms were. We took note during RailFest 2001. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:19:09 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope --- "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of > passenger > trains, I was told as a wee child that it was illegal. Perhaps "illegal" meant "contrary to ICC regulations". In any event, my impression was that it was some authority higher than "the railroad" which prohibited the practice. On the other hand, also as a wee child, I saw one passenger train move eastward through Latrobe, Pa with two steam engines, one pushing. This would have been during or just after WW2 and, in retrospect, I can't be sure if it was a passenger train or a string of empty coaches being moved somewhere. At the time, I thought it was a train carrying passengers which is why it sticks in my mind. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:28:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 1:19 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: >> I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of >> passenger >> trains, > > I was told as a wee child that it was illegal. Perhaps "illegal" > meant "contrary to ICC regulations". In any event, my impression was > that it was some authority higher than "the railroad" which > prohibited the practice. > > On the other hand, also as a wee child, I saw one passenger train > move eastward through Latrobe, Pa with two steam engines, one > pushing. This would have been during or just after WW2 and, in > retrospect, I can't be sure if it was a passenger train or a string > of empty coaches being moved somewhere. At the time, I thought it was > a train carrying passengers which is why it sticks in my mind. > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. HOWEVER, solid mail trains, which ran as passenger trains, were allowed to have helpers on the back. There are numerous published photos of this practice. Maybe that's what you saw as a child, a mail train? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:45:11 -0500 It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. I think the notch can still be seen where the shanty stood in the hill on the south side of the RR between Gallitzen and UN. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "robert netzlof" ; "Burnley, Charles" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope > On 1/9/03 1:19 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > > >> I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of > >> passenger > >> trains, > > > > I was told as a wee child that it was illegal. Perhaps "illegal" > > meant "contrary to ICC regulations". In any event, my impression was > > that it was some authority higher than "the railroad" which > > prohibited the practice. > > > > On the other hand, also as a wee child, I saw one passenger train > > move eastward through Latrobe, Pa with two steam engines, one > > pushing. This would have been during or just after WW2 and, in > > retrospect, I can't be sure if it was a passenger train or a string > > of empty coaches being moved somewhere. At the time, I thought it was > > a train carrying passengers which is why it sticks in my mind. > > > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that > prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice > started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. > > HOWEVER, solid mail trains, which ran as passenger trains, were allowed to > have helpers on the back. There are numerous published photos of this > practice. Maybe that's what you saw as a child, a mail train? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:59:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 1:45 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest > Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the > "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. The April 1957 issue of TRAINS that Bennett mentions certainly is a "must have" issue. I frequently see other issues of TRAINS from the late 1940's and through the 1950's for sale on eBay that list PRR content. Can anyone describe what's included in these other issues and whether or not they are as worth having is the 4/57 issue? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:01:35 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: FW: [PRR] Trenton Bridge I asked good friend and NJ railroad historian Paul Schopp about the railroad bridges in Trenton. His reply is below. BTW Paul will be giving a talk on the C&A during the 2003 PRRT&HS Annual Meeting. Al ==================== The Philadelphia & Trenton Railroad first crossed the Delaware River in 1837 on the 1806 Burr Arch covered bridge erected between Trenton and Morrisville and entering Trenton on Bridge Street. Rail traffic continued using this bridge, but beginning in 1868, the C&A and then the Pennsy allowed the bridge to deteriorate because of the desire to erect a new bridge. In 1874, the PRR began rebuilding and made additions to the stone bridge piers. The company used the new pier additions to erect an double-track, iron-truss bridge. The Pennsy installed the last span of this bridge in August 1875 and finally dismantled the old Burr arch bridge in December 1875. In 1876, the railroad erected another iron bridge to accommodate foot and horse traffic; wagons were forced to use the Calhoun Street Bridge. In 1892, the railroad again rebuilt the piers and installed a new four-track steel bridge erected by the American Bridge Company to the south of the iron bridges. Six years later, the iron railroad bridge came down and it, too, was replaced with a four-track steel bridge erected by the American Bridge Company. In 1903, the PRR opened its new stone viaduct across the Delaware and by 1908, the company discontinued use of the steel bridges, removed them and sold them to the Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington Railroad to use in bridging the Potomac. The remaining iron public bridge sitting on the piers, by now a toll bridge, was sold to the Joint Commission for Eliminating Toll Bridges for $240,000 in 1918. In 1928, the commission deemed the old iron bridge unsafe and constructed a new bridge on the piers which formerly held the 1898 steel railroad bridge at a cost of $650,000. Initially called the Lincoln Highway Bridge, today it is known as the "Trenton Makes-World Takes" bridge. This sign was first installed to attract the attention of those speeding by in trains on the 1903 stone viaduct. Hope this helps you out! Best, Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:23:18 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope --- Jerry Britton wrote: > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that > prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this > practice > started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. > > HOWEVER, solid mail trains, which ran as passenger trains, were > allowed to > have helpers on the back. There are numerous published photos of > this > practice. Maybe that's what you saw as a child, a mail train? No, pretty sure it was coaches or if not, some other sort of cars intended to carry people. Something with windows anyway. But as I say, memory can't be sure they weren't empty cars. (It's been a bit over 50 years.) It may have been a string of coaches heading to Altoona for repair, or going somewhere to pick up a bunch of troops. But if the cars were empty, why two locomotives? Regarding mail trains and their cousins, express trains, I recall seeing container flat cars (the long, 8 container type) running in such trains. Always wondered, since such trains had either a coach or combine or cabin on the rear, and those cars were steam heated, were the container flats equiped with steam lines or did the riders in the rear car have to tough it out in cold weather? By "container flat car", I mean the distinctively PRR ones written up in the Keystone sometime in the mid-80's. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:32:56 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Mark- Their is an uncoupling chain that dangles from the end handrail of the caboose to the coupling pin at the centerline of the cabin. The end brakeman would just pull on the chain, to pull the pin up to release the coupling. Then the snappers would slow down, switch tracks and hit the run around. >From the portals to UN interlocking, their is a good distance. For about 1/2 mile the track is practically level in this area. The passenger train would have already passed the area required for helper service. Also, a Jerry stated, Gallitzen had a passenger station in use into the 40's. Approx. 10 years left until steam operations ceased. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Lehman Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:20 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back to tracks 1&2? Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and diesel helpers?--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:34:34 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope To my understanding, snappers did not offer air line input. Please correct me if I am wrong. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Lehman Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:20 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back to tracks 1&2? Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and diesel helpers?--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:36:19 EST Subject: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey Now that the topic of Loewey and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:56:57 +0000 How would you like to ride up the hill five feet in front of say an I-1 and pull a pin? I know most of us would kill for the chance but I'll bet there were a lot of rear end guys who were very pleased to see those beasts depart from the scene. Can you imagine trying to even think with the stack talk coming in the cabin carlet alone the rear platform? Wonder how long it took for their hearing to improve if at all? > Mark- > > Their is an uncoupling chain that dangles from the end handrail of the > caboose to the coupling pin at the centerline of the cabin. The end > brakeman would just pull on the chain, to pull the pin up to release the > coupling. Then the snappers would slow down, switch tracks and hit the run > around. > > From the portals to UN interlocking, their is a good distance. For about > 1/2 mile the track is practically level in this area. The passenger train > would have already passed the area required for helper service. Also, a > Jerry stated, Gallitzen had a passenger station in use into the 40's. > Approx. 10 years left until steam operations ceased. > > Greg V > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark > Lehman > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:20 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope > > > Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would > be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what > about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger > train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back > to tracks 1&2? > > Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on > the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines > connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was > uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and > diesel helpers?--Mark-- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:28:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Hello Mark, Some heavy mail trains took their helpers are the way to Pittsburgh. These were the road helpers (steam era) on the front end of the train that were added at Altoona Station. During the diesel era, some westbound freights (mostly ore drags)took their helpers to Johnstown or even farther depending on how heavy the train was. There are enough hills and dips on the mainline to slow trains down so the helpers were used to keep the speed up in the 40 to 50 mph range. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:50:53 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey [Loewy] VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Now that the topic of Loewey LOEWY 8)>> > and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone > in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab > designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? Nope. THAT was the (other) point of my little rant. 8)>> ''the shape' just appeared' Its been said that it may have come from Westinghouse. To my eye, it looks a lot like a 'windblasted' L5, with possible relations to NYC S Motor and/or Milwaukee Bi Polars. Both those are GE, more or less as was, i think, the first L5. I make no assertions, just observations (and some may be iffy....). Candidates seem to be: GE PRR Westinghouse and all combinations -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:40:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope --part1_75.6d46c98.2b4f7084_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/2003 1:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that > prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice > started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. > Did not that other railroad use pushers westbound on West Albany Hill? In steaam days, there was one or more 0-8-0 switchers assigned, according to some still-firing neurons in my skull. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_75.6d46c98.2b4f7084_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/2003 1:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that
prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice
started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back.


Did not that other railroad use pushers westbound on West Albany Hill?
In steaam days, there was one or more 0-8-0 switchers assigned, according
to some still-firing neurons in my skull.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_75.6d46c98.2b4f7084_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:36:23 -0600 The issue in question was a comprehensive, photographic description of operations on primarily the Pittsburgh division showing the position of all trains at a certain time in the evening, when all the Blue Ribbon fleet was roughly near or at Altoona. A lot of pictures, description of tower operations, etc., a statement to the effect that the volume was too great to justify CTC. It is a typical Trains article of the David Morgan era in which one can almost feel the excitement and pulse of the Railroad on that particular evening. And at that time period, the decline of the railroad was not at all that evident. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 1:00 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine On 1/9/03 1:45 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest > Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the > "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. The April 1957 issue of TRAINS that Bennett mentions certainly is a "must have" issue. I frequently see other issues of TRAINS from the late 1940's and through the 1950's for sale on eBay that list PRR content. Can anyone describe what's included in these other issues and whether or not they are as worth having is the 4/57 issue? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:41:32 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: "Douglas Nelson" David P. Morgan wrote about the "Cutoff Man" at Gallitzin, who had a tiny hut, in the April 1957 TRAINS article on the PRR mountain crossing. I used this passage in the Philip Hastings book along with a photo of the cutoff man in action (page 65). Doug Nelson ---------- >From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope >Date: Thu, Jan 9, 2003, 9:20 AM > > Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would > be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what > about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger > train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back > to tracks 1&2? > > Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on > the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines > connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was > uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and > diesel helpers?--Mark-- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:55:52 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: "Douglas Nelson" The Philip Hastings lead photo from the April 1957 TRAINS shows two Geep helpers pushing on the rear rider coach of a mail and express train at Horsehoe Curve. That would have been a noisy ride. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:17:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? From: "M. E Allen" John, You're right. For the water to be that high one would need a boat to travel on route 29. Mike Allen (who sees that bridge from his car at least twice a week) Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:30:43 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? Gentlemen: I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember converging on a number: 1. What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared? I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties. 2. In the 1941 copy, there are 32 numbered pages. Most pages picture one division in red, with surrounding divisions in heavy black and other roads in light black lines. 3. In the 192? copy, there are 44 maps, plus pages LXXIX through LXXXII. Pages LXXXI and LXXXII are "corrections in maps 1 to 44". 4. Like the 1941 edition, the 192? has a Long Island map. Unlike 1941, it also has an RF&P map, just as if it were a division of the Pennsy. 5. The 192? maps use a softer, wider red line than that reproduced in my 1941 reprint. There is also use of a green line when two divisions are shown on the same page (e.g. New York Divison and Philadelphia Terminal Divisions). Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and one for the original map. Let's look at corrections first: 1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton RR". This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at Tipton PA. You'd think I would remember the date out of service. 2. Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood. 3. On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to "Baltimore & Eastern RR". 4. Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division" 5. On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct" 6. On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, Lawton. (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville). 7. The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div. 8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in just about every division. For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct. Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date. I'm sure everyone has favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out at me: 1. The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy. Thus, it's after 1916. 2. The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the Wilkes-Barre Div. 3. Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div. 4. Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div 5. The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the Buffalo Div at Clermont 6. The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.). At this date, all of it down to its junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division. 7. As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division. And the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the Panhandle Div. 8. The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) is shown as a PRR line leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain. This is a new one to me, but Lorain was once a major steelmaking city. In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a PRR line or affiliate. In 1941, this line is shown not PRR, and only exists from the town of Nova OH north. 9. The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis. All the lines south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially a. all the ancestral Little Miami plus b. the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus c. the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus d. the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and then north to Trinway 10. The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still alive. 11. The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached Waveland Jct. and Brazil. Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of Brazil IN are shown. So can we determine the date of the map and the date of the "corrections" sheet? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:30:43 EST Subject: [PRR] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? --part1_6.6e424c0.2b5016f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen: I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember converging on a number: 1. What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared? I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties. 2. In the 1941 copy, there are 32 numbered pages. Most pages picture one division in red, with surrounding divisions in heavy black and other roads in light black lines. 3. In the 192? copy, there are 44 maps, plus pages LXXIX through LXXXII. Pages LXXXI and LXXXII are "corrections in maps 1 to 44". 4. Like the 1941 edition, the 192? has a Long Island map. Unlike 1941, it also has an RF&P map, just as if it were a division of the Pennsy. 5. The 192? maps use a softer, wider red line than that reproduced in my 1941 reprint. There is also use of a green line when two divisions are shown on the same page (e.g. New York Divison and Philadelphia Terminal Divisions). Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and one for the original map. Let's look at corrections first: 1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton RR". This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at Tipton PA. You'd think I would remember the date out of service. 2. Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood. 3. On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to "Baltimore & Eastern RR". 4. Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division" 5. On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct" 6. On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, Lawton. (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville). 7. The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div. 8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in just about every division. For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct. Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date. I'm sure everyone has favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out at me: 1. The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy. Thus, it's after 1916. 2. The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the Wilkes-Barre Div. 3. Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div. 4. Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div 5. The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the Buffalo Div at Clermont 6. The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.). At this date, all of it down to its junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division. 7. As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division. And the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the Panhandle Div. 8. The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) is shown as a PRR line leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain. This is a new one to me, but Lorain was once a major steelmaking city. In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a PRR line or affiliate. In 1941, this line is shown not PRR, and only exists from the town of Nova OH north. 9. The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis. All the lines south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially a. all the ancestral Little Miami plus b. the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus c. the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus d. the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and then north to Trinway 10. The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still alive. 11. The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached Waveland Jct. and Brazil. Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of Brazil IN are shown. So can we determine the date of the map and the date of the "corrections" sheet? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_6.6e424c0.2b5016f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen:

I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember converging on a number:

1.  What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared?  I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties.

2.  In the 1941 copy, there are 32 numbered pages.  Most pages picture one division in red, with surrounding divisions in heavy black and other roads in light black lines.

3.  In the 192? copy, there are 44 maps, plus pages LXXIX through LXXXII.  Pages LXXXI and LXXXII are "corrections in maps 1 to 44". 

4.  Like the 1941 edition, the 192? has a Long Island map.  Unlike 1941, it also has an RF&P map, just as if it were a division of the Pennsy.

5.  The 192? maps use a softer, wider red line than that reproduced in my 1941 reprint.  There is also use of a green line when two divisions are shown on the same page (e.g. New York Divison and Philadelphia Terminal Divisions).

Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and one for the original map.  Let's look at corrections first:

1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton RR".  This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at Tipton PA.  You'd think I would remember the date out of service.

2.  Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood.

3.  On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to "Baltimore & Eastern RR".

4.  Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division"

5.  On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct"

6.  On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, Lawton.  (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville).

7.  The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div.

8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in just about every division.  For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct.

Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date.  I'm sure everyone has favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out at me:

1.  The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy.  Thus, it's after 1916.

2.  The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the Wilkes-Barre Div.

3.  Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div.

4.  Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div

5.  The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the Buffalo Div at Clermont

6.  The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.).  At this date, all of it down to its junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division.

7.  As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division.  And the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the Panhandle Div.

8.  The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) is shown as a PRR line leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain.  This is a new one to me, but Lorain was once a major steelmaking city.  In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a PRR line or affiliate.  In 1941, this line is shown not PRR, and only exists from the town of Nova OH north.

9.  The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis.  All the lines south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially
       a.  all the ancestral Little Miami plus
       b.  the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus
       c.  the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus
       d.  the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and then north to Trinway

10.  The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still alive.

11.  The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached Waveland Jct. and Brazil.  Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of Brazil IN are shown.

So can we determine the date of the map and the date of the "corrections" sheet? 

                          

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_6.6e424c0.2b5016f3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:26:27 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? If they changed the name of Ft. Meade to Ft. Leonard Wood on the map, that was a mistake as Meade is still to this day Ft.Meade and is still in MD. Ft. Wood is still Ft. Wood and is in MO. Al - USAR Ret. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:26:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? If they changed the name of Ft. Meade to Ft. Leonard Wood on the map, that was a mistake as Meade is still to this day Ft.Meade and is still in MD. Ft. Wood is still Ft. Wood and is in MO. Al - USAR Ret. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey [Loewy] Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:58:15 +0000 As near as I can trace it the first version was the L6 (?) The side rodded road engine that was a disaster and all gone by the 40's. The first semi- streamlined version was the modified P5a's when production was held due to a grade crossing accident of a box cab. The G's were a natural progresion from the P5a's. > VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > > Now that the topic of Loewey > > LOEWY > 8)>> > > > and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone > > > in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab > > designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? > Nope. > > THAT was the (other) point of my little rant. > 8)>> > ''the shape' just appeared' > > Its been said that it may have come from Westinghouse. > To my eye, it looks a lot like a 'windblasted' L5, > with possible relations to NYC S Motor and/or Milwaukee > Bi Polars. > Both those are GE, more or less as was, i think, the > first L5. > > I make no assertions, just observations (and some may be > iffy....). Candidates seem to be: > GE > PRR > Westinghouse > and all combinations > > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:29:40 -0500 The center cab P-5a carbody design came AFTER the GG-1 so I would guess you could say it was Loewey inspired. Bill V. (saw Loewey on his last PRR trip behind the 4935) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of VVA249@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:36 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey Now that the topic of Loewey and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Tyco GG1 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:39:54 +0000 How good are the pantographs on the Tyco engine? Are they good enough to reuse? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:41:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Looking for assistance --part1_15d.1a31b154.2b504398_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings; I model in N-Scale and I'm trying to find parts or guidance on to locos I want to cross-knit.Did,or does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? Does anyone know a source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_15d.1a31b154.2b504398_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings;
   I model in N-Scale and I'm trying to find parts or guidance on to locos I want to
cross-knit.Did,or does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? Does anyone
know a source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS  E.J.   EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_15d.1a31b154.2b504398_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:30:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Dayton Union Terminal's plant In a message dated 1/9/03 8:21:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > On an unrelated note, I picked up a hardbound edition of "History of > the B&O" for $10 at the GATS show last month, and to my suprize the > two page color lead in spread was Dayton Union Station with a B&O F > unit pulling a freight Eastbound on the far North track. I belive the > PRR track was the far South with an NYC and possibly an Erie track in > between. I can post publishing info if anyone wants it. > > Thanks, > > xlr8@atlantic.net > Please do give us publishing info. I'm not sure if this book is the same as the one authored by Kirk Reynolds and David P. Oroszi. My friend Dave Oroszi is a Dayton native and (unlike me) still lives there. Dave and Jill Oroszi have probably the best collection of railroading photos on the Dayton area that exists... If I may offer a correction on Dayton Union Station -- the ancestral PRR, B& O, NYC, and Erie tracks at downtown Dayton were replaced by the Dayton Union Terminal Company's four-track elevated main. Thus, I don't believe there are individually owned tracks within the DUT plant. Instead, from east to west: 1. DUT plant starts at Second Street with NYC, B&O, and Erie tracks entering from the west ends of their respective East Dayton Yards. 2. B&O Toledo line joins from the north 3. PRR main from Xenia comes in at "Wayne Avenue Junction" 4. About a mile west, the station tracks spread out between #2 and #3 mains. There are two stub tracks for express on the north side of the station. 5. At the west end of the station (once known by local fans as "under the trees", all tracks converge to a doubletrack main. 6. DUT main crosses Great Miami River on a 3-span curved-chord truss bridge ("Pennsylvania truss"). 7. After passing between factories for a few blocks, DUT ends at MIAMI CITY JUNCTION. Miami City, the area west of the Miami River, was once a separate municipality. Here, the Pennsy leaves for Richmond IN, and the NYC/Big Four and the B&O head downriver for Cincinnati. On the ground, the DUT plant was pretty much all standard PRR equipment. Track layout, position light signals (including a series of signal bridges), gas switch heaters, and even the railings to protect employees were PRR standard. Switches were electropneumatic for speed. The only deviation I could see was that the DUT buildings (notably the compressor house along Third Street) were constructed of locally popular yellow brick, and were not PRR standard. Despite the Pennsy resemblance (and a one quarter ownership), DUT was a separate company. For example, it had its own rule book (about 32 pages), which I suspect all PRR crews working Dayton were examined on and expected to carry. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:30:17 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Published Cincinnati pictures and errata Gentlemen, Most of you know that I'm doing a rush job for the PRRT&HS Keystone. One of the things I'm trying to do is list and gently critique the published pictures. Below is what I have so far... 1. Pennsy Diesel Years One - Page 134. Although the page is lettered "Columbus", the lower picture shows H-10-44 (class FS-10) #5980, and labels it as "Undercliff". Certainly, the FS-10 was normal switcher power for the Cincinnati-Dayton area in the early 60's, but this picture actually shows Clare. What we see here is a transfer cut that departed PRR's Undercliff Yard a couple of miles back, and headed up the Little Miami through RENDCOMB JUNCTION and RED BANK. It is now alongside N&W's Clare Yard (note the N&W gray office building), and the attractive Cincinnati suburb of Mariemont lies behind those trees on top of the hill. The switcher has just crossed the N&W diamond at PRR CLARE; you can see the peak of CLARE's two-story brick tower behind the GTW boxcar, and the N&W's bridge across the Little Miami River is out of the picture to the left. As these cars left "east" out of Undercliff, it was possible they were headed up to RENDCOMB JUNCTION for local industries or interchange across town. But there aren't many logical destinations past RED BANK, as from here to Xenia on-line industry is basically a few country elevators. The fact the cut is this far "east" suggests that these cars will be set out here, and will leave Clare Yard in an N&W train for Portsmouth, Kenova and points east. This is confirmed when we notice that the engine is coming through the crossover into the 3-track interchange yard, where these cars will be set out for the Norfolk road. 2. PDY 1 - Page 135, correctly labeled shots of PRR trains at the north end of CUT, waiting to go "east". Above the units of #207, we see the Terminal's Tower A, which has been preserved as a railfan lookout/museum/library through the efforts of the Cincinnati Railroad Club. 3. PDY 1 - Page 136. Here we have two photos of Trainmaster #8708. These are wonderful, nay, exciting shots of these FM's, but I'm unable to correlate the two pictures with any Cincinnati location. The overpass in the upper shot may look a little like Beechmont Avenue, which bisects Undercliff Yard. But the roundhouse in the lower shot is a total miss - Undercliff didn't have one. Also, the buildings in the shot are just not grimy enough for eastern Cincinnati, and there are no hills around the site. OTOH, the lower shot looks a lot like the engine terminal at Hawthorne Yard in Indianapolis. If it were, there would be a good-sized rectangular-bin concrete coaling tower still standing just to the right of the picture. 4. Pennsy Diesel Years Five - Page 92, we see 9095, an H-10-44 (class FS-10),. Although identified as the Undercliff Diesel Shop, this is more correctly called the "west" end of the diesel house at Pendleton Shops. Of course, Pendleton served as the engine terminal for Undercliff, but it's almost 2 miles closer to downtown and on the Ohio River instead of along the Little Miami River. . Over on the bottom of page 97, we are again at Pendleton, not Undercliff (notice the houses on the hill are the same ones) 5. PDY5 - Page 93. Yes, this is Undercliff Yard, and it's easy to guess this 1966 shot is westward from the Beechmont Avenue bridge, about the only overhead highway bridge in the length of the yard. The auto racks may be for GM Norwood, where Camaros were assembled 6. PDY5 - Page 94, 95, 96, top 97. Nice shots of CUT. Page 95 reminds us that PRR passenger trains out of CUT ran on the B&O for almost 10 miles - up the Mill Creek valley past Spring Grove Avenue, NA tower, and Winton Place's depot, then east to Norwood to get on Pennsy rails. From Norwood, eastbounds went OAKLEY, VALLEY, and RED BANK to get onto Little Miami rails and head for Xenia and Columbus. 7. Pennsy Diesel Years Six - No Cincinnati pix found 8. Pennsylvania Color Pictorials Vols I, II, and III by Dave Sweetland - No Cincinnati pix found 9. Pennsylvania Railroad by Mike Schaefer and Brian Solomon, p 37 - The Union, behind two EP20's, awaits departure for Chicago. A 1953 shot with the lead unit still in DGLE (green). Note X42 and R50b as headend cars. Also, the baggage trucks at left are standing in front of CUT's postal annex. 10. Pennsy Power I - p 39 shows L2s 9630. This is probably Pendleton, home terminal for the five USRA Mikes that Pennsy retained (25 or 30 others are rumored to have been quickly shipped off to roads farther west). 11. Pennsy Power II -- No Cincinnati pix found 12. Pennsy Power III - p 97 Middle photo of 7929 is similar scene to the 7930 pic (above), but identified as Pendleton in September 1933. Note the oval builders' plate. Tough to identify bottom location (PRR 7928) - it could be anywhere from Cincinnati to Fort Wayne along the L2s' normal route. 13. PPIII - p 115. Not Cincinnati, but perilously close. It's the Xenia coal dock, all right; photographer is standing on Cincinnati-bound main tracks. Being 1927, 7139 likely hasn't been an N2sa very long - most sources talk about Columbus applying the Belpaire firebox to these USRA 2-10-2's in 1926. 14. PPIII - p 313. PRR 6321 (and 6322) are at Pendleton - the hillside and concrete smokestack are suspicious, but with the giant circular vent over the enginehouse showing at left are definitive. Bet it was fun threading the curves of the Little Miami gorge with these monsters (Alco Century C630's). 15. PPIII - All these passenger car pix (p 378 - P70rf 3891, p 389 - parlor Defender, p389 - parlor Matchless) are taken at CUT, with Tower A showing in the upper background. 16. Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s by Don Ball - pp 160-161. All four pix are from CUT. The upper left is notable in that it is shot from the south and shows the arriving Cincinnati Limited; most PRR pix from Cincinnati are northside shots of departing trains. Top right is a closeup of that scene. The bottom two shots show Pennsy E8's mixed with other roads steam and diesel passenger power at CUT's art deco engine terminal. The overpass is Hopple Street viaduct, one of a series of highway overpasses spanning the rail-choked Mill Creek Valley. 17. Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet by Joe Welsh - p 6. PRR train 265 at Morrow OH, on its way to Cincinnati on the Little Miami. The caption notes that this photo (K4s 5498) is circa 1930. 18. Pennsy Streamliners - p 84. T1 5500 has the Cincinnati Limited eastbound at Columbus according to this caption. Trouble is, Columbus doesn't have any hills as big as the one in the background. I haven't been able to place this scene, but it could be in Cincinnati. Please send me any corrections, additions, or (especially) other known published pictures. There are a couple of photos that I can remember, but haven't been able to locate this week... Many thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:30:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Dayton Union Terminal's plant --part1_128.1ff15e9c.2b504f0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 8:21:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > On an unrelated note, I picked up a hardbound edition of "History of > the B&O" for $10 at the GATS show last month, and to my suprize the > two page color lead in spread was Dayton Union Station with a B&O F > unit pulling a freight Eastbound on the far North track. I belive the > PRR track was the far South with an NYC and possibly an Erie track in > between. I can post publishing info if anyone wants it. > > Thanks, > > xlr8@atlantic.net > Please do give us publishing info. I'm not sure if this book is the same as the one authored by Kirk Reynolds and David P. Oroszi. My friend Dave Oroszi is a Dayton native and (unlike me) still lives there. Dave and Jill Oroszi have probably the best collection of railroading photos on the Dayton area that exists... If I may offer a correction on Dayton Union Station -- the ancestral PRR, B& O, NYC, and Erie tracks at downtown Dayton were replaced by the Dayton Union Terminal Company's four-track elevated main. Thus, I don't believe there are individually owned tracks within the DUT plant. Instead, from east to west: 1. DUT plant starts at Second Street with NYC, B&O, and Erie tracks entering from the west ends of their respective East Dayton Yards. 2. B&O Toledo line joins from the north 3. PRR main from Xenia comes in at "Wayne Avenue Junction" 4. About a mile west, the station tracks spread out between #2 and #3 mains. There are two stub tracks for express on the north side of the station. 5. At the west end of the station (once known by local fans as "under the trees", all tracks converge to a doubletrack main. 6. DUT main crosses Great Miami River on a 3-span curved-chord truss bridge ("Pennsylvania truss"). 7. After passing between factories for a few blocks, DUT ends at MIAMI CITY JUNCTION. Miami City, the area west of the Miami River, was once a separate municipality. Here, the Pennsy leaves for Richmond IN, and the NYC/Big Four and the B&O head downriver for Cincinnati. On the ground, the DUT plant was pretty much all standard PRR equipment. Track layout, position light signals (including a series of signal bridges), gas switch heaters, and even the railings to protect employees were PRR standard. Switches were electropneumatic for speed. The only deviation I could see was that the DUT buildings (notably the compressor house along Third Street) were constructed of locally popular yellow brick, and were not PRR standard. Despite the Pennsy resemblance (and a one quarter ownership), DUT was a separate company. For example, it had its own rule book (about 32 pages), which I suspect all PRR crews working Dayton were examined on and expected to carry. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_128.1ff15e9c.2b504f0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 8:21:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


On an unrelated note, I picked up a hardbound edition of "History of
the B&O" for $10 at the GATS show last month, and to my suprize the
two page color lead in spread was Dayton Union Station with a B&O F
unit pulling a freight Eastbound on the far North track. I belive the
PRR track was the far South with an NYC and possibly an Erie track in
between. I can post publishing info if anyone wants it.

Thanks,

xlr8@atlantic.net


Please do give us publishing info.  I'm not sure if this book is the same as the one authored by Kirk Reynolds and David P. Oroszi.  My friend Dave Oroszi is a Dayton native and (unlike me) still lives there.  Dave and Jill Oroszi have probably the best collection of railroading photos on the Dayton area that exists...

If I may offer a correction on Dayton Union Station -- the ancestral PRR, B&O, NYC, and Erie tracks at downtown Dayton were replaced by the Dayton Union Terminal Company's four-track elevated main.  Thus, I don't believe there are individually owned tracks within the DUT plant.  Instead,  from east to west:
1. DUT plant starts at Second Street with NYC, B&O, and Erie tracks entering from the west ends of their respective East Dayton Yards.
2. B&O Toledo line joins from the north
3. PRR main from Xenia comes in at "Wayne Avenue Junction"
4. About a mile west, the station tracks spread out between #2 and #3 mains.  There are two stub tracks for express on the north side of the station.
5. At the west end of the station (once known by local fans as "under the trees", all tracks converge to a doubletrack main.
6. DUT main crosses Great Miami River on a 3-span curved-chord truss bridge ("Pennsylvania truss").
7.  After passing between factories for a few blocks, DUT ends at MIAMI CITY JUNCTION.  Miami City, the area west of the Miami River, was once a separate municipality.  Here, the Pennsy leaves for Richmond IN, and the NYC/Big Four and the B&O head downriver for Cincinnati.

On the ground, the DUT plant was pretty much all standard PRR equipment.  Track layout, position light signals (including a series of signal bridges), gas switch heaters, and even the railings to protect employees were PRR standard.  Switches were electropneumatic for speed.  The only deviation I could see was that the DUT buildings (notably the compressor house along Third Street) were constructed of locally popular yellow brick, and were not PRR standard.

Despite the Pennsy resemblance (and a one quarter ownership), DUT was a separate company.  For example, it had its own rule book (about 32 pages), which I suspect all PRR crews working Dayton were examined on and expected to carry.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_128.1ff15e9c.2b504f0f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:30:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Published Cincinnati pictures and errata --part1_d3.16db4144.2b504f19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, Most of you know that I'm doing a rush job for the PRRT&HS Keystone. One of the things I'm trying to do is list and gently critique the published pictures. Below is what I have so far... 1. Pennsy Diesel Years One - Page 134. Although the page is lettered "Columbus", the lower picture shows H-10-44 (class FS-10) #5980, and labels it as "Undercliff". Certainly, the FS-10 was normal switcher power for the Cincinnati-Dayton area in the early 60's, but this picture actually shows Clare. What we see here is a transfer cut that departed PRR's Undercliff Yard a couple of miles back, and headed up the Little Miami through RENDCOMB JUNCTION and RED BANK. It is now alongside N&W's Clare Yard (note the N&W gray office building), and the attractive Cincinnati suburb of Mariemont lies behind those trees on top of the hill. The switcher has just crossed the N&W diamond at PRR CLARE; you can see the peak of CLARE's two-story brick tower behind the GTW boxcar, and the N&W's bridge across the Little Miami River is out of the picture to the left. As these cars left "east" out of Undercliff, it was possible they were headed up to RENDCOMB JUNCTION for local industries or interchange across town. But there aren't many logical destinations past RED BANK, as from here to Xenia on-line industry is basically a few country elevators. The fact the cut is this far "east" suggests that these cars will be set out here, and will leave Clare Yard in an N&W train for Portsmouth, Kenova and points east. This is confirmed when we notice that the engine is coming through the crossover into the 3-track interchange yard, where these cars will be set out for the Norfolk road. 2. PDY 1 - Page 135, correctly labeled shots of PRR trains at the north end of CUT, waiting to go "east". Above the units of #207, we see the Terminal's Tower A, which has been preserved as a railfan lookout/museum/library through the efforts of the Cincinnati Railroad Club. 3. PDY 1 - Page 136. Here we have two photos of Trainmaster #8708. These are wonderful, nay, exciting shots of these FM's, but I'm unable to correlate the two pictures with any Cincinnati location. The overpass in the upper shot may look a little like Beechmont Avenue, which bisects Undercliff Yard. But the roundhouse in the lower shot is a total miss - Undercliff didn't have one. Also, the buildings in the shot are just not grimy enough for eastern Cincinnati, and there are no hills around the site. OTOH, the lower shot looks a lot like the engine terminal at Hawthorne Yard in Indianapolis. If it were, there would be a good-sized rectangular-bin concrete coaling tower still standing just to the right of the picture. 4. Pennsy Diesel Years Five - Page 92, we see 9095, an H-10-44 (class FS-10),. Although identified as the Undercliff Diesel Shop, this is more correctly called the "west" end of the diesel house at Pendleton Shops. Of course, Pendleton served as the engine terminal for Undercliff, but it's almost 2 miles closer to downtown and on the Ohio River instead of along the Little Miami River. . Over on the bottom of page 97, we are again at Pendleton, not Undercliff (notice the houses on the hill are the same ones) 5. PDY5 - Page 93. Yes, this is Undercliff Yard, and it's easy to guess this 1966 shot is westward from the Beechmont Avenue bridge, about the only overhead highway bridge in the length of the yard. The auto racks may be for GM Norwood, where Camaros were assembled 6. PDY5 - Page 94, 95, 96, top 97. Nice shots of CUT. Page 95 reminds us that PRR passenger trains out of CUT ran on the B&O for almost 10 miles - up the Mill Creek valley past Spring Grove Avenue, NA tower, and Winton Place's depot, then east to Norwood to get on Pennsy rails. From Norwood, eastbounds went OAKLEY, VALLEY, and RED BANK to get onto Little Miami rails and head for Xenia and Columbus. 7. Pennsy Diesel Years Six - No Cincinnati pix found 8. Pennsylvania Color Pictorials Vols I, II, and III by Dave Sweetland - No Cincinnati pix found 9. Pennsylvania Railroad by Mike Schaefer and Brian Solomon, p 37 - The Union, behind two EP20's, awaits departure for Chicago. A 1953 shot with the lead unit still in DGLE (green). Note X42 and R50b as headend cars. Also, the baggage trucks at left are standing in front of CUT's postal annex. 10. Pennsy Power I - p 39 shows L2s 9630. This is probably Pendleton, home terminal for the five USRA Mikes that Pennsy retained (25 or 30 others are rumored to have been quickly shipped off to roads farther west). 11. Pennsy Power II -- No Cincinnati pix found 12. Pennsy Power III - p 97 Middle photo of 7929 is similar scene to the 7930 pic (above), but identified as Pendleton in September 1933. Note the oval builders' plate. Tough to identify bottom location (PRR 7928) - it could be anywhere from Cincinnati to Fort Wayne along the L2s' normal route. 13. PPIII - p 115. Not Cincinnati, but perilously close. It's the Xenia coal dock, all right; photographer is standing on Cincinnati-bound main tracks. Being 1927, 7139 likely hasn't been an N2sa very long - most sources talk about Columbus applying the Belpaire firebox to these USRA 2-10-2's in 1926. 14. PPIII - p 313. PRR 6321 (and 6322) are at Pendleton - the hillside and concrete smokestack are suspicious, but with the giant circular vent over the enginehouse showing at left are definitive. Bet it was fun threading the curves of the Little Miami gorge with these monsters (Alco Century C630's). 15. PPIII - All these passenger car pix (p 378 - P70rf 3891, p 389 - parlor Defender, p389 - parlor Matchless) are taken at CUT, with Tower A showing in the upper background. 16. Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s by Don Ball - pp 160-161. All four pix are from CUT. The upper left is notable in that it is shot from the south and shows the arriving Cincinnati Limited; most PRR pix from Cincinnati are northside shots of departing trains. Top right is a closeup of that scene. The bottom two shots show Pennsy E8's mixed with other roads steam and diesel passenger power at CUT's art deco engine terminal. The overpass is Hopple Street viaduct, one of a series of highway overpasses spanning the rail-choked Mill Creek Valley. 17. Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet by Joe Welsh - p 6. PRR train 265 at Morrow OH, on its way to Cincinnati on the Little Miami. The caption notes that this photo (K4s 5498) is circa 1930. 18. Pennsy Streamliners - p 84. T1 5500 has the Cincinnati Limited eastbound at Columbus according to this caption. Trouble is, Columbus doesn't have any hills as big as the one in the background. I haven't been able to place this scene, but it could be in Cincinnati. Please send me any corrections, additions, or (especially) other known published pictures. There are a couple of photos that I can remember, but haven't been able to locate this week... Many thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_d3.16db4144.2b504f19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen,

Most of you know that I'm doing a rush job for the PRRT&HS Keystone.  One of the things I'm trying to do is list and gently critique the published pictures.  Below is what I have so far...

1. Pennsy Diesel Years One - Page 134.  Although the page is lettered "Columbus", the lower picture shows H-10-44 (class FS-10) #5980, and labels it as "Undercliff".  Certainly, the FS-10 was normal  switcher power for the Cincinnati-Dayton area in the early 60's, but this picture actually shows Clare.  What we see here is a transfer cut that departed PRR's Undercliff  Yard a couple of miles back, and headed up the Little Miami through RENDCOMB JUNCTION and RED BANK.  It is now alongside N&W's Clare Yard (note the N&W gray office building), and the attractive Cincinnati suburb of Mariemont lies behind those trees on top of the hill.  The switcher has just crossed the N&W diamond at PRR CLARE; you can see the peak of CLARE's two-story brick tower behind the GTW boxcar, and the N&W's bridge across the Little Miami River is out of the picture to the left.  As these cars left "east" out of Undercliff, it was possible they were headed 2. PDY 1 - Page 135, correctly labeled shots of PRR trains at the north end of CUT, waiting to go "east".   Above the units of #207, we see the Terminal's Tower A, which has been preserved as a railfan lookout/museum/library through the efforts of the Cincinnati Railroad Club.
3. PDY 1 - Page 136.  Here we have two photos of Trainmaster #8708.  These are wonderful, nay, exciting shots of these FM's, but I'm unable to correlate the two pictures with any Cincinnati location.  The overpass in the upper shot may look a little like Beechmont Avenue, which bisects Undercliff Yard.  But the roundhouse in the lower shot is a total miss - Undercliff didn't have one.  Also, the buildings in the shot are just not grimy enough for eastern Cincinnati, and there are no hills around the site.  OTOH, the lower shot looks a lot like the engine terminal at Hawthorne Yard in Indianapolis.  If it were, there would be a good-sized rectangular-bin concrete coaling tower still standing just to the right of the picture.
4. Pennsy Diesel Years Five - Page 92, we see 9095, an H-10-44 (class FS-10),.  Although identified as the Undercliff Diesel Shop, this is more correctly called the "west" end of the diesel house at Pendleton Shops.  Of course, Pendleton served as the engine terminal for Undercliff, but it's almost 2 miles closer to downtown and on the Ohio River instead of along the Little Miami River. .  Over on the bottom of page 97, we are again at Pendleton, not Undercliff (notice the houses on the hill are the same ones)
5. PDY5 - Page 93.  Yes, this is Undercliff Yard, and it's easy to guess this 1966 shot is westward from the Beechmont Avenue bridge, about the only overhead highway bridge in the length of the yard.  The auto racks may be for GM Norwood, where Camaros were assembled
6. PDY5 - Page 94, 95, 96, top 97.  Nice shots of CUT.  Page 95 reminds us that PRR passenger trains out of CUT ran on the B&O for almost 10 miles - up the Mill Creek valley past Spring Grove Avenue, NA tower, and Winton Place's depot, then east to Norwood to get on Pennsy rails.  From Norwood, eastbounds went OAKLEY, VALLEY, and RED BANK to get onto Little Miami rails and head for Xenia and Columbus.
7. Pennsy Diesel Years Six - No Cincinnati pix found
8. Pennsylvania Color Pictorials Vols I, II, and III by Dave Sweetland - No Cincinnati pix found
9. Pennsylvania Railroad by Mike Schaefer and Brian Solomon, p 37 - The Union, behind two EP20's, awaits departure for Chicago.  A 1953 shot with the lead unit still in DGLE (green).  Note X42 and R50b as headend cars.  Also, the baggage trucks at left are standing in front of CUT's postal annex.
10. Pennsy Power I - p 39 shows L2s 9630.  This is probably Pendleton, home terminal for the five USRA Mikes that Pennsy retained (25 or 30 others are rumored to have been quickly shipped off to roads farther west).
11. Pennsy Power II -- No Cincinnati pix found
12. Pennsy Power III - p 97 Middle photo of 7929 is similar scene to the 7930 pic (above), but identified as Pendleton in September 1933.  Note the oval builders' plate.  Tough to identify bottom location (PRR 7928) - it could be anywhere from Cincinnati to Fort Wayne along the L2s' normal route.
13. PPIII - p 115.  Not Cincinnati, but perilously close.   It's the Xenia coal dock, all right; photographer is standing on Cincinnati-bound main tracks.  Being 1927, 7139 likely hasn't been an N2sa very long - most sources talk about Columbus applying the Belpaire firebox to these USRA 2-10-2's in 1926.
14. PPIII - p 313.  PRR 6321 (and 6322) are at Pendleton - the hillside and concrete smokestack are suspicious, but with the giant circular vent over the enginehouse showing at left are definitive.  Bet it was fun threading the curves of the Little Miami gorge with these monsters (Alco Century C630's).
15. PPIII - All these passenger car pix (p 378 - P70rf 3891, p 389 - parlor Defender, p389 - parlor Matchless) are taken at CUT, with Tower A showing in the upper background.
16. Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s by Don Ball - pp 160-161.  All four pix are from CUT.  The upper left is notable in that it is shot from the south and shows the arriving Cincinnati Limited; most PRR pix from Cincinnati are northside shots of departing trains.  Top right is a closeup of that scene.  The bottom two shots show Pennsy E8's mixed with other roads steam and diesel passenger power at CUT's art deco engine terminal.  The overpass is Hopple Street viaduct, one of a series of highway overpasses spanning the rail-choked Mill Creek Valley.
17. Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet by Joe Welsh - p 6.  PRR train 265 at Morrow OH, on its way to Cincinnati on the Little Miami.  The caption notes that this photo (K4s 5498) is circa 1930.
18. Pennsy Streamliners - p 84.  T1 5500 has the Cincinnati Limited eastbound at Columbus according to this caption.  Trouble is, Columbus doesn't have any hills as big as the one in the background.  I haven't been able to place this scene, but it could be in Cincinnati.

Please send me any corrections, additions, or (especially) other known published pictures.  There are a couple of photos that I can remember, but haven't been able to locate this week...

Many thanks,

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_d3.16db4144.2b504f19_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:31:04 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_U+hltJGeD+zIIy7DGD74dA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, all. I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR operations in Buffalo, NY? Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_U+hltJGeD+zIIy7DGD74dA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, all.
 
I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY.  Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot.
 
Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR operations in Buffalo, NY?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_U+hltJGeD+zIIy7DGD74dA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:45:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information From: Jerry Britton On 1/10/03 12:31 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > > I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. > Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. > > Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR > operations in Buffalo, NY? > There is someone working on a "PRR in Western New York" web site on my server, but it's not open for use yet. Morning Sun Books published a "Trackside Around Buffalo" book that will have some photos of the physical plant. You should also refer to the CT1000 for listings of all the online businesses by tenths of mileposts. Also, the employee timetables. Both will shed light on operations in the area. The CT1000 can be downloaded from the Documents section of Keystone Crossings. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:06:53 -0000 Guys, Is it just me or does the photo of the post war R50b on the Walthers web page look brown..... Does anyone know if the pre-war version will be a better colour? Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:07:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2B8B1.96588120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable E.J.: You're on your own for a cast pilot for a K4s, but it shouldn't be hard = to file out of .080 styrene. The only slide valve cylinder block I am aware of is on the MDC = Roundhouse 2-8-0, but I don't believe MDC is selling individual parts. = This would work for a B8a. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: EMACGIS@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [PRR] Looking for assistance Greetings; I model in N-Scale and I'm trying to find parts or guidance on to = locos I want to cross-knit.Did,or does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? = Does anyone know a source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be = greatly appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2B8B1.96588120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
E.J.:
 
You're on your own for a cast pilot for a K4s, but = it=20 shouldn't be hard to file out of .080 styrene.
 
The only slide valve cylinder block I am aware of is = on the=20 MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0, but I don't believe MDC is selling individual = parts. This=20 would work for a B8a.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 EMACGIS@aol.com=20
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 = 10:41=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Looking for=20 assistance

Greetings;
   I model in N-Scale and = I'm=20 trying to find parts or guidance on to locos I want = to
cross-knit.Did,or=20 does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? Does anyone
know = a=20 source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be greatly=20 appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS  E.J.   EMACGIS@aol.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2B8B1.96588120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:20:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/09/03 --part1_181.150182fb.2b5076ff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 1:54:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > L1sDRIVER@webtv.net RE: your reference to a new PRR video that shows helpers cutting off on the fly in Gallitzin. Please list the name and production company of this video. I have several PRR video's but none showing a cutoff on the fly. Bob Martin --part1_181.150182fb.2b5076ff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 1:54:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


L1sDRIVER@webtv.net


RE:  your reference to a new PRR video that shows helpers cutting off on the fly in Gallitzin.  Please list the name and production company of this video.  I have several PRR video's but none showing a cutoff on the fly.

Bob Martin --part1_181.150182fb.2b5076ff_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:23:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance --part1_159.1a33b9ff.2b5077cc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Greg; Thanks for the info.Not what I really wanted to hear as I was hoping someone had cast that pilot at one time or another.I will try and check with MDC on the cylinders.They probably are not selling parts as you said. THANKS AGAIN E.J. --part1_159.1a33b9ff.2b5077cc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Greg;
   Thanks for the info.Not what I really wanted to hear as I was hoping someone
had cast that pilot at one time or another.I will try and check with MDC on the cylinders.They probably are not selling parts as you said.
   THANKS AGAIN
   E.J. --part1_159.1a33b9ff.2b5077cc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:49:32 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jX/RLkPobYlsc8h1nj3emw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There is a second edition (2000) book (first edition 1996) called "A History of Railroads in Western New York" by Fr. Edward T. Dunn. I recently purchased it and am almost a quarter way through it. It's heavy into NYC and Erie with discussions of other lines which made it into Buffalo and very light on any PRR history or operations. Al --Boundary_(ID_jX/RLkPobYlsc8h1nj3emw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
There is a second edition (2000) book (first edition 1996) called "A History of Railroads in Western New York" by Fr. Edward T. Dunn. I recently purchased it and am almost a quarter way through it. It's heavy into NYC and Erie with discussions of other lines which made it into Buffalo and very light on any PRR history or operations.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_jX/RLkPobYlsc8h1nj3emw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:31:36 -0500 A couple thoughts - pure conjecture on my part. One is that keeping a helper on past Gallitzin would help markedly with acceleration out of stations and speed restrictions. The second is that trains weren't going very fast out of the tunnels at Gallitzin, so time to stop to uncouple snappers would have been minimal if someone were posted there to do it. Just one SPF's opinion. FWIW, YMMV. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Mark Lehman" ; Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope > Hello Mark, > > Some heavy mail trains took their helpers are the way to > Pittsburgh. These were the road helpers (steam era) on the front end of > the train that were added at Altoona Station. > During the diesel era, some westbound freights (mostly ore > drags)took their helpers to Johnstown or even farther depending on how > heavy the train was. There are enough hills and dips on the mainline to > slow trains down so the helpers were used to keep the speed up in the 40 > to 50 mph range. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:34:39 -0500 Whoo boy - I sure would love to see that article. Could anyone scan it or send me a photo copy by snail mail? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Jerry Britton'" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine > The issue in question was a comprehensive, photographic description of > operations on primarily the Pittsburgh division showing the position of all > trains at a certain time in the evening, when all the Blue Ribbon fleet was > roughly near or at Altoona. A lot of pictures, description of tower > operations, etc., a statement to the effect that the volume was too great to > justify CTC. > > It is a typical Trains article of the David Morgan era in which one can > almost feel the excitement and pulse of the Railroad on that particular > evening. And at that time period, the decline of the railroad was not at > all that evident. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 1:00 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine > > > On 1/9/03 1:45 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > > > It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest > > Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the > > "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. > > The April 1957 issue of TRAINS that Bennett mentions certainly is a "must > have" issue. I frequently see other issues of TRAINS from the late 1940's > and through the 1950's for sale on eBay that list PRR content. Can anyone > describe what's included in these other issues and whether or not they are > as worth having is the 4/57 issue? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:35:08 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information Zak You might want to take a look at http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/trainthumb.cgi?maps/1950usgs/ I was given a HUGE (4x8) USGS map of the Buffalo area and we scanned a number of RR related areas and have them thumbnailed and indexed on the page above. My good friend Henry wrote the descriptions! Regards Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: >On 1/10/03 12:31 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > >> >> I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. >> Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. >> >> Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR >> operations in Buffalo, NY? >> >There is someone working on a "PRR in Western New York" web site on my >server, but it's not open for use yet. > >Morning Sun Books published a "Trackside Around Buffalo" book that will have >some photos of the physical plant. > >You should also refer to the CT1000 for listings of all the online >businesses by tenths of mileposts. Also, the employee timetables. Both will >shed light on operations in the area. The CT1000 can be downloaded from the >Documents section of Keystone Crossings. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR in Buffalo Information Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:21:58 -0500 I am the one working on the PRR in WNY site but I have been concentrating on items still standing like the Ebenezer Roundhouse and the I1 in Hamburg. I hope to continue working on it once work settles down. Please contact me if you need any details. There is not a lot of printed info on the PRR in Buffalo, it seems to appear more by accident than intent. One of the better books I found is "Western New York and Pennsylvania Railway" by Pietrak, Streamer & Van Brocklin. The WNY&PA Railroad became the PRR Northern Division. The book goes into the history of the acquisition of by the PRR and has some good pictures and maps from Buffalo to Olean and beyond. Now if I can only find my copy again... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Zak" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information > On 1/10/03 12:31 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > > > > > I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. > > Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. > > > > Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR > > operations in Buffalo, NY? > > > There is someone working on a "PRR in Western New York" web site on my > server, but it's not open for use yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Black Gold/Black Diamonds Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:27:18 -0600 Since Volume 1 came out in 1997, and Volume 2 in 2000, could this be the year for Volume 3? Has anybody heard any news from the publisher? Is anybody taking advance reservations? Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:42:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/09/03 --part1_1c7.342ce4c.2b50d09f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a copy of Pennsylvania Glory, Volume 3 from Herron Rail Services (c. 1991). In this video there are 2 shots of helpers being cut on the fly at Gallitzin. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1c7.342ce4c.2b50d09f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a copy of Pennsylvania Glory, Volume 3 from Herron Rail Services (c. 1991).  In this video there are 2 shots of helpers being cut on the fly at Gallitzin.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1c7.342ce4c.2b50d09f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kunkle" Subject: [PRR] Allegheny River Bridge Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:45:32 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2B8E9.37BC8E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to get some information on the two level railroad bridge over= the Allegheny River by the Pittsburgh Station. In particular: How many= tracks were there on the lower level? Were there any height restriction= s on the lower level? How late was the lower level used? Can anybody di= rect me to pictures of the approaches on the Pittsburgh side or how it co= nnected on the North Side? Thanks in advance. Bob ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2B8E9.37BC8E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am trying to= get some information on the two level railroad bridge over the Allegheny= River by the Pittsburgh Station.  In particular:  How many tra= cks were there on the lower level?  Were there any height restrictio= ns on the lower level?  How late was the lower level used?  Can= anybody direct me to pictures of the approaches on the Pittsburgh side o= r how it connected on the North Side?  Thanks in advance.
 
Bob

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2B8E9.37BC8E30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:24:05 -0500 I would love to see the entire 4x8 map of all this in it's entirety. Where is it located? Anywhere I could see it if I were in the area? Any way of scanning it somehow in a smaller scale or in pieces with a code that would enable printing them and piecing them together? Imagine all this in the days of steam! Imagine an HO model! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "Zak" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information > > > Zak > > You might want to take a look at > > http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/trainthumb.cgi?maps/1950usgs/ > > I was given a HUGE (4x8) USGS map of the Buffalo area and we scanned a > number of RR related areas and have them thumbnailed and indexed on the > page above. My good friend Henry wrote the descriptions! > > Regards > > > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager > www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting > www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services > > On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jerry Britton wrote: > > >On 1/10/03 12:31 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > > > >> > >> I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. > >> Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. > >> > >> Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR > >> operations in Buffalo, NY? > >> > >There is someone working on a "PRR in Western New York" web site on my > >server, but it's not open for use yet. > > > >Morning Sun Books published a "Trackside Around Buffalo" book that will have > >some photos of the physical plant. > > > >You should also refer to the CT1000 for listings of all the online > >businesses by tenths of mileposts. Also, the employee timetables. Both will > >shed light on operations in the area. The CT1000 can be downloaded from the > >Documents section of Keystone Crossings. > >----------------------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:26:56 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest Bobs Photos and #495207 From: Beth Caples I know this is old news but my computer went on the fritz. I am finally back on line after more than a week of @#!$$. Someone mentioned a link to Bobs Photo's and a photo of car # 495207. It is a converted P70 used in wire train service. I can't find it on the web. Could you email me the link . Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:38:32 -0500 From: davep Subject: [Loewy] Re: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey > The center cab P-5a carbody design came AFTER the GG-1 Indeed. Covered in the roster in the P5 Book. > so I would guess you could say it was Loewey Loewy 8)>> > inspired. How? 'someone' had designed and created GG1 (Rivets) (and the R1, with essentially identical shape) Well before Loewy's association with the PRR. (6 months or so, at least). cf the recent archives of this list, and Loewy's autobiography, pp 135 et seq. (Need to have the dates from RR sources as Loewy omits them.) In brief: Loewy was given a photograph of GG1 'Rivets' and asked if it could be 'improved'. He suggested welding up essentially the same shape, some painting and other odds and ends. I posted fuller references a few weeks back. > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > VVA249@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:36 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey >>Now that the topic of Loewey and the GG-1 has been totally >> beaten to death - is anyone in particular credited with >>the pre Loewey Loewy >> centercab designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? > >> Dick Ross, >> Cleveland best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:48:57 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Allegheny River Bridge, maps --- Robert Kunkle wrote: > I am trying to get some information on the two level railroad > bridge over the Allegheny River by the Pittsburgh Station. The following may be interesting. 1903 http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=03sv3p05 1923 http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=23v0105a 1929 http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=29v10p26 1890, North Side http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=90v02p01 ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:44:28 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Buffalo NY aerial photos, 1950's and 1920's Erie County, New York, has a number of elderly aerial photos available on-line at: http://www.erie.gov/depts/community/highways_aerial.phtml ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 04:20:38 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_epo8dt7/l/JIWpqWyqM5ZQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I would like to thank everyone who gave me input to my question. I have enough on my plate to keep me going for some time. I found those aerial photos of Erie County from 1951, which Bob Netzlof pointed out to me, especially interesting. Normally when I look at an aerial photo, all I see is a bunch of dots. These are really good, though. I can even see house I lived in until I joined the Army!. Wow! >From a non-railroad point of view, I was four in '51, and NYS was starting real work - which I even remember - on the Thruway system. These photos show the digging, etc., that was already going on. Eventual cloverleaf ingress/egress areas can even be found. Again, many thanks to everyone. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_epo8dt7/l/JIWpqWyqM5ZQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
I would like to thank everyone who gave me input to my question.  I have enough on my plate to keep me going for some time.
 
I found those aerial photos of Erie County from 1951, which Bob Netzlof pointed out to me, especially interesting.
 
Normally when I look at an aerial photo, all I see is a bunch of dots.  These are really good, though.  I can even see house I lived in until I joined the Army!.  Wow!
 
From a non-railroad point of view, I was four in '51, and NYS was starting real work - which I even remember - on the Thruway system.  These photos show the digging, etc., that was already going on.  Eventual cloverleaf ingress/egress areas can even be found.
 
Again, many thanks to everyone.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_epo8dt7/l/JIWpqWyqM5ZQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 07:29:19 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] A.D.80 mysteries revealed Thanks, Chris, for the wonderful rundown on details found in my A.D.80 as copied below. So the answer is that the original map is circa 1923 and the corrections pages are circa 1929. Also, thanks to those who responded pointing out that Fort Leonard Wood was/is an army post in Missouri. Something struck me strange at the time, but apparently the ca. 1929 "correction" I copied was simply wrong as printed. Instead, Camp Meade became Fort George G. Meade (and is shown labelled properly on the 1941 A.D.80 maps). I have been told that Fort Meade has a Tipton Army Air Field; it appears on some maps. This just may be a reference to my ancestors who entered at Baltimore in 1758 and settled outside of town, possibly on that land. In a message dated 1/10/03 10:37:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:36:22 -0500 > From: Chris Baer > Subject: Re: A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? > > At 07:30 AM 1/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Gentlemen: > > > >I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember > >converging on a number: > > > >1. What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books > prepared? > >I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy > (the > >covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the > Twenties. > > I have a copy of the one from the 1920s and dated it to ca. 1923 and the > revised version to ca. 1929. > > (text removed) > > > >Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and > >one for the original map. Let's look at corrections first: > > > >1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase > "Tipton > >RR". This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at > >Tipton PA. You'd think I would remember the date out of service. > > Tipton RR dissolved 6/8/1927 > > >2. Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood. > > > >3. On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to > >"Baltimore & Eastern RR". > > BC&A conveyed to B&E 11/28/1928 > > > >4. Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division" > > On 3/1/1928 > > > >5. On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct" > > > >6. On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point > >between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, > >Lawton. (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western > has > >been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville). > > In 1928 > > >7. The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH > changes > >from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div. > > On 1/16/1924 > > > >8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) > in > >just about every division. For example, on the Panhandle Division, > Weirton > >Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct. > > > >Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date. I'm sure everyone has > >favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump > out > >at me: > > > >1. The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, > replacing > >PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy. Thus, it's after > >1916. > > > >2. The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as > the > >Wilkes-Barre Div. > > On 5/16/1932 > > >3. Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div. > > On 5/16/1932 > > >4. Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div > > Baltimore Div. of PB&W (Balt-DC) merged into Maryland Div. of PB&W > 1/1/1918; Baltimore Div. of NC merged into Maryland Div. 7/16/1938 > > >5. The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with > the > >Buffalo Div at Clermont > > Service abandoned Johnsonburg-Clermont 10/31/1927 > > > >6. The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly > >provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio > coalfields > >to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in > the > >middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.). At this date, all of it down to its > >junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern > Division. > > Abandoned 1936 > > >7. As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division. And > >the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the > >Panhandle Div. > > OR&W abandoned Woodsfield-Lawton in 1928, Bellaire-Woodsfield in 1931 > > > >8. The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) (NOT POSSIBLY) is > >shown as a PRR line > >leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via > >Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain. This is a new one to me, > but > >Lorain was once a major steelmaking city. In 192?, the LA&S is marked as > a > >PRR line or affiliate.(JOINTLY OWNED WITH ERIE) In 1941, this line is > >shown not PRR, and only exists > >from the town of Nova OH north. > > Abandoned 8/1/1925; on 7/16/1931 portion Nova-Lorain sold to PRR and > remainder of line torn up. > > >9. The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH > through > >Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis. All the lines > >south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main > through > >Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially > > a. all the ancestral Little Miami plus > > b. the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus > > c. the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as > far > >as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus > > d. the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and > > then > >north to Trinway > > Dayton-Lytle, Xenia-Springfield ceded to Columbus Div. 9/24/1939 > Rendcomb Jct.-Richmond (old Richmond Division) ceded to Cincinnati Div. > 5/1/1928 > > > >10. The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from > >Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was > still > >alive. > > Old line abandoned 1927 > > >11. The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still > reached > >Waveland Jct. and Brazil. Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of > >Brazil IN are shown. > > Central Indiana abandoned: Muncie-Anderson, Ladoga-Waveland Jct. and Sand > Creek-Brazil, 1928; Advance-Ladoga, 1929. > > Chris Baer > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 07:29:34 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Mysteries of Columbus Indiana In a message dated 1/10/03 10:37:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:22:05 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Cummins Engine in Columbus, IN > > Listfellows: > > I was thumbing through the PRR's Station and Siding List > (CT1000) from 1945 and made what I felt was a rather > stunning discovery. There is no listing in Columbus, > Indiana for the town's largest and most important > industry--Cummins Engine Company. In fact, according to > the index of this book, the PRR did not serve a Cummins > company anywhere along its lines. Can it possibly be > true that Cummins relied only on the Big Four's CH&G > branch for rail service? If so, there must be one > pretty interesting story behind this. > > Richard Wallis > Just one of the many mysteries about Columbus IN, along with 1945's "Old Main" and "New Main" and the "Present Main" which is obviously a third alignment pushed west out of the city center in the 60's and 70's by Columbus' passion for new architecture. IIRC, what was the Columbus yard and freight house became a shopping mall. In the early 70's, I watched them knock down the freight house, which was sufficiently antique to have loadbearing walls and heavily arched freight doorways. I can't find a Cummins Engine plant listed on any of the three (really four) PRR lines at Columbus IN in the 1945 CT1000W. In addition, I don't remember seeing a Cummins plant alongside the rights-of-way I've visited there. Various possibilities: 1. The company wasn't called Cummins Engine in 1945. 2. The company had its works on the Big Four branch from Greensburg (and this was more central to the east end of town than either of the Pennsy branches). 3. Being a maker of truck engines, it may not have used rail. Of course, this is a ridiculous thought for 1945. All the other manufacturers of trucks and truck components I know use rail at least for inbound materials. Columbus Indiana is about 50 miles north of me, along PRR's Louisville Branch. For what it's worth, I've tried to reach the Columbus/Bartholomew County Historical Society by email, but have not received an answer. Maybe questions about railroads are beneath their interest, but more likely they just don't have someone active interested in rail history. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 07:29:19 EST Subject: [PRR] A.D.80 mysteries revealed --part1_77.6fc3f8a.2b51681f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Chris, for the wonderful rundown on details found in my A.D.80 as copied below. So the answer is that the original map is circa 1923 and the corrections pages are circa 1929. Also, thanks to those who responded pointing out that Fort Leonard Wood was/is an army post in Missouri. Something struck me strange at the time, but apparently the ca. 1929 "correction" I copied was simply wrong as printed. Instead, Camp Meade became Fort George G. Meade (and is shown labelled properly on the 1941 A.D.80 maps). I have been told that Fort Meade has a Tipton Army Air Field; it appears on some maps. This just may be a reference to my ancestors who entered at Baltimore in 1758 and settled outside of town, possibly on that land. In a message dated 1/10/03 10:37:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:36:22 -0500 > From: Chris Baer > Subject: Re: A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? > > At 07:30 AM 1/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Gentlemen: > > > >I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember > >converging on a number: > > > >1. What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books > prepared? > >I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy > (the > >covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the > Twenties. > > I have a copy of the one from the 1920s and dated it to ca. 1923 and the > revised version to ca. 1929. > > (text removed) > > > >Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and > >one for the original map. Let's look at corrections first: > > > >1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase > "Tipton > >RR". This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at > >Tipton PA. You'd think I would remember the date out of service. > > Tipton RR dissolved 6/8/1927 > > >2. Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood. > > > >3. On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to > >"Baltimore & Eastern RR". > > BC&A conveyed to B&E 11/28/1928 > > > >4. Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division" > > On 3/1/1928 > > > >5. On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct" > > > >6. On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point > >between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, > >Lawton. (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western > has > >been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville). > > In 1928 > > >7. The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH > changes > >from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div. > > On 1/16/1924 > > > >8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) > in > >just about every division. For example, on the Panhandle Division, > Weirton > >Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct. > > > >Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date. I'm sure everyone has > >favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump > out > >at me: > > > >1. The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, > replacing > >PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy. Thus, it's after > >1916. > > > >2. The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as > the > >Wilkes-Barre Div. > > On 5/16/1932 > > >3. Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div. > > On 5/16/1932 > > >4. Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div > > Baltimore Div. of PB&W (Balt-DC) merged into Maryland Div. of PB&W > 1/1/1918; Baltimore Div. of NC merged into Maryland Div. 7/16/1938 > > >5. The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with > the > >Buffalo Div at Clermont > > Service abandoned Johnsonburg-Clermont 10/31/1927 > > > >6. The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly > >provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio > coalfields > >to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in > the > >middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.). At this date, all of it down to its > >junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern > Division. > > Abandoned 1936 > > >7. As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division. And > >the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the > >Panhandle Div. > > OR&W abandoned Woodsfield-Lawton in 1928, Bellaire-Woodsfield in 1931 > > > >8. The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) (NOT POSSIBLY) is > >shown as a PRR line > >leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via > >Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain. This is a new one to me, > but > >Lorain was once a major steelmaking city. In 192?, the LA&S is marked as > a > >PRR line or affiliate.(JOINTLY OWNED WITH ERIE) In 1941, this line is > >shown not PRR, and only exists > >from the town of Nova OH north. > > Abandoned 8/1/1925; on 7/16/1931 portion Nova-Lorain sold to PRR and > remainder of line torn up. > > >9. The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH > through > >Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis. All the lines > >south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main > through > >Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially > > a. all the ancestral Little Miami plus > > b. the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus > > c. the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as > far > >as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus > > d. the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and > > then > >north to Trinway > > Dayton-Lytle, Xenia-Springfield ceded to Columbus Div. 9/24/1939 > Rendcomb Jct.-Richmond (old Richmond Division) ceded to Cincinnati Div. > 5/1/1928 > > > >10. The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from > >Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was > still > >alive. > > Old line abandoned 1927 > > >11. The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still > reached > >Waveland Jct. and Brazil. Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of > >Brazil IN are shown. > > Central Indiana abandoned: Muncie-Anderson, Ladoga-Waveland Jct. and Sand > Creek-Brazil, 1928; Advance-Ladoga, 1929. > > Chris Baer > Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_77.6fc3f8a.2b51681f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Chris, for the wonderful rundown on details found in my A.D.80 as copied below.  So the answer is that the original map is circa 1923 and the corrections pages are circa 1929.

Also, thanks to those who responded pointing out that Fort Leonard Wood was/is an army post in Missouri.  Something struck me strange at the time, but apparently the ca. 1929 "correction" I copied was simply wrong as printed.  Instead, Camp Meade became Fort George G. Meade (and is shown labelled properly on the 1941 A.D.80 maps). 

I have been told that Fort Meade has a Tipton Army Air Field; it appears on some maps.  This just may be a reference to my ancestors who entered at Baltimore in 1758 and settled outside of town, possibly on that land.

In a message dated 1/10/03 10:37:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:36:22 -0500
   From: Chris Baer <cbaer@udel.edu>
Subject: Re: A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates?

At 07:30 AM 1/10/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Gentlemen:
>
>I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember
>converging on a number:
>
>1.  What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared?
>I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the
>covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties.

I have a copy of the one from the 1920s and dated it to ca. 1923 and the
revised version to ca. 1929.

                 (text removed)


>Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and
>one for the original map.  Let's look at corrections first:
>
>1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton
>RR".  This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at
>Tipton PA.  You'd think I would remember the date out of service.

Tipton RR dissolved 6/8/1927

>2.  Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood.
>
>3.  On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to
>"Baltimore & Eastern RR".

BC&A conveyed to B&E 11/28/1928


>4.  Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division"

On 3/1/1928


>5.  On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct"
>
>6.  On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point
>between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run,
>Lawton.  (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has
>been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville).

In 1928

>7.  The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes
>from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div.

On 1/16/1924


>8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in
>just about every division.  For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton
>Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct.
>
>Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date.  I'm sure everyone has
>favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out
>at me:
>
>1.  The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing
>PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy.  Thus, it's after
>1916.
>
>2.  The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the
>Wilkes-Barre Div.

On 5/16/1932

>3.  Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div.

On 5/16/1932

>4.  Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div

Baltimore Div. of PB&W (Balt-DC) merged into Maryland Div. of PB&W
1/1/1918; Baltimore Div. of NC merged into Maryland Div. 7/16/1938

>5.  The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the
>Buffalo Div at Clermont

Service abandoned Johnsonburg-Clermont 10/31/1927


>6.  The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly
>provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields
>to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the
>middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.).  At this date, all of it down to its
>junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division.

Abandoned 1936

>7.  As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division.  And
>the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the
>Panhandle Div.

OR&W abandoned Woodsfield-Lawton in 1928,  Bellaire-Woodsfield in 1931


>8.  The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) (NOT POSSIBLY) is
>shown as a PRR line
>leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via
>Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain.  This is a new one to me, but
>Lorain was once a major steelmaking city.  In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a
>PRR line or affiliate.(JOINTLY OWNED WITH ERIE) In 1941, this line is
>shown not PRR, and only exists
>from the town of Nova OH north.

Abandoned 8/1/1925; on 7/16/1931 portion Nova-Lorain sold to PRR and
remainder of line torn up.

>9.  The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through
>Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis.  All the lines
>south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through
>Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially
>        a.  all the ancestral Little Miami plus
>        b.  the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus
>        c.  the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far
>as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus
>        d.  the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and
> then
>north to Trinway

Dayton-Lytle, Xenia-Springfield ceded to Columbus Div. 9/24/1939
Rendcomb Jct.-Richmond (old Richmond Division) ceded to Cincinnati Div.
5/1/1928


>10.  The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from
>Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still
>alive.

Old line abandoned 1927

>11.  The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached
>Waveland Jct. and Brazil.  Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of
>Brazil IN are shown.

Central Indiana abandoned: Muncie-Anderson, Ladoga-Waveland Jct. and Sand
Creek-Brazil, 1928; Advance-Ladoga, 1929.

Chris Baer



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_77.6fc3f8a.2b51681f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 07:29:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Mysteries of Columbus Indiana --part1_12b.1fd7c787.2b51682e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/10/03 10:37:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:22:05 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Cummins Engine in Columbus, IN > > Listfellows: > > I was thumbing through the PRR's Station and Siding List > (CT1000) from 1945 and made what I felt was a rather > stunning discovery. There is no listing in Columbus, > Indiana for the town's largest and most important > industry--Cummins Engine Company. In fact, according to > the index of this book, the PRR did not serve a Cummins > company anywhere along its lines. Can it possibly be > true that Cummins relied only on the Big Four's CH&G > branch for rail service? If so, there must be one > pretty interesting story behind this. > > Richard Wallis > Just one of the many mysteries about Columbus IN, along with 1945's "Old Main" and "New Main" and the "Present Main" which is obviously a third alignment pushed west out of the city center in the 60's and 70's by Columbus' passion for new architecture. IIRC, what was the Columbus yard and freight house became a shopping mall. In the early 70's, I watched them knock down the freight house, which was sufficiently antique to have loadbearing walls and heavily arched freight doorways. I can't find a Cummins Engine plant listed on any of the three (really four) PRR lines at Columbus IN in the 1945 CT1000W. In addition, I don't remember seeing a Cummins plant alongside the rights-of-way I've visited there. Various possibilities: 1. The company wasn't called Cummins Engine in 1945. 2. The company had its works on the Big Four branch from Greensburg (and this was more central to the east end of town than either of the Pennsy branches). 3. Being a maker of truck engines, it may not have used rail. Of course, this is a ridiculous thought for 1945. All the other manufacturers of trucks and truck components I know use rail at least for inbound materials. Columbus Indiana is about 50 miles north of me, along PRR's Louisville Branch. For what it's worth, I've tried to reach the Columbus/Bartholomew County Historical Society by email, but have not received an answer. Maybe questions about railroads are beneath their interest, but more likely they just don't have someone active interested in rail history. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_12b.1fd7c787.2b51682e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/10/03 10:37:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:22:05 -0600
   From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Cummins Engine in Columbus, IN

Listfellows:

I was thumbing through the PRR's Station and Siding List
(CT1000) from 1945 and made what I felt was a rather
stunning discovery.  There is no listing in Columbus,
Indiana for the town's largest and most important
industry--Cummins Engine Company.  In fact, according to
the index of this book, the PRR did not serve a Cummins
company anywhere along its lines.  Can it possibly be
true that Cummins relied only on the Big Four's CH&G
branch for rail service?  If so, there must be one
pretty interesting story behind this.

Richard Wallis


Just one of the many mysteries about Columbus IN, along with 1945's "Old Main" and "New Main" and the "Present Main" which is obviously a third alignment pushed west out of the city center in the 60's and 70's by Columbus' passion for new architecture.  IIRC, what was the Columbus yard and freight house became a shopping mall.  In the early 70's, I watched them knock down the freight house, which was sufficiently antique to have loadbearing walls and heavily arched freight doorways.

I can't find a Cummins Engine plant listed on any of the three (really four) PRR lines at Columbus IN in the 1945 CT1000W.  In addition, I don't remember seeing a Cummins plant alongside the rights-of-way I've visited there.  Various possibilities:
1. The company wasn't called Cummins Engine in 1945.
2. The company had its works on the Big Four branch from Greensburg (and this was more central to the east end of town than either of the Pennsy branches).
3. Being a maker of truck engines, it may not have used rail.  Of course, this is a ridiculous thought for 1945.  All the other manufacturers of trucks and truck components I know use rail at least for inbound materials.

Columbus Indiana is about 50 miles north of me, along PRR's Louisville Branch.  For what it's worth, I've tried to reach the Columbus/Bartholomew County Historical Society by email, but have not received an answer.  Maybe questions about railroads are beneath their interest, but more likely they just don't have someone active interested in rail history.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_12b.1fd7c787.2b51682e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:36:11 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] FW: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? I'm sending this to West and Talk as it was answered only on FAX. That's the problem with multiple posts and responders are only on one list. It solves the Meade-Wood question. The AD 80 maps WERE correct ca. 1928-1929, not in error as I initially thought. Al -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 5:52 PM To: 'PRR@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? Ken said re Ft. Meade," There MAY be something to this. I have no idea where I heard, or read it, but I would swear that I have heard that Mead was Wood, at least for a time." Very good Ken - I stand corrected, it seems Meade was Wood for a year or so. See below from Fort Meade's website. I knew it was opened as Meade and had friends stationed at Meade in one of the Armored Cav Regiments (2d or 3d forget which) during the Cold War in the 1950s and 60s. Al =============== Fort George G. Meade became an Army installation in 1917. Authorized by Act of Congress in May 1917, it was one of 16 cantonments built for troops drafted for the war with the Central Powers in Europe. The present Maryland site was selected on June 23, 1917. Actual construction began in July. The first contingent of troops arrived here that September. The post was originally named Camp Meade for Major General George Gordon Meade, whose defensive strategy at the Battle of Gettysburg proved a major factor in turning the tide of the Civil War in favor of the North. During World War I, more than 100,000 men passed through Fort Meade, a training site for three infantry divisions, three training battalions and one depot brigade. In 1928, when the post was renamed Fort Leonard Wood, Pennsylvanians registered such a large protest that the installation was permanently named Fort George G. Meade on March 5, 1929. This action was largely the result of a rider attached to the Regular Army Appropriation Act by a member of the House of Representatives from the Keystone State. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:38:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thats good reasoning Bill but the speed of the trains is what really got me thinking about where the passenger help cut off at. The videos I have show several trains coming out of the Galitzin tunnel (west bound). Yes the freights were going pretty slow but the passenger trains were cooking on by at a good clip! I guess they could stop a lot quicker. I wonder if the passenger trains that stopped at Cresson would keep there helpers and cut off there.-------Mark------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Allegheny River Bridge (aka Fort Wayne Bridge) There are two books with info on the Allegheny River Bridge. "The Pennsy in the Steel City" and "The Pennsylvania Railroad"s Golden Triangle". Both books were published by the PRRT&HS. I think these books are available through the PRR Society. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 10:05:25 EST Subject: [PRR] MPB54 usage --part1_159.1a4a1d2e.2b52de35_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In re-reading the Summer 2002 Keystone article about a mixed train ride on a branch in central PA, it sank in that the train included an MPB54 as the passenger accomodations. I had not realized these cars were used in anything but electrified service. Shame on me. Can anyone comment on, or point me to sources on, the use of the various xx54 classes in non-electrified territory. This may solve a problem on my layout. Many thanks. Lee Rainey --part1_159.1a4a1d2e.2b52de35_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In re-reading the Summer 2002 Keystone article about a mixed train ride on a branch in central PA, it sank in that the train included an MPB54 as the passenger accomodations.

I had not realized these cars were used in anything but electrified service. Shame on me.

Can anyone comment on, or point me to sources on, the use of the various xx54 classes in non-electrified territory.

This may solve a problem on my layout.

Many thanks.

Lee Rainey --part1_159.1a4a1d2e.2b52de35_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:20:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information --part1_ba.3498d275.2b52efcc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/10/03 12:42:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes: > I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. > Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. > > Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR > operations in Buffalo, NY? > Hi Zak and others, An excellent book titled "Western New York and Pennsylvania Railway" was written and published by Paul V. Pietrak, Joseph G. Streamer, and James A. Van Brocklin in 2000. The soft cover book has over 200 pages of text, many photos, maps and charts on this portion of the PRR which had lines in northwestern PA and western NY. It covers the history, motive power, passenger and freight operations, stations and other facilities, and historical antecdotes on the railroad, its predecessors and succesors. It is probably available from well known railroad book dealers and I highly recommend it. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_ba.3498d275.2b52efcc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/10/03 12:42:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes:

I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY.  Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot.
 
Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR operations in Buffalo, NY?


Hi Zak and others,

An excellent book titled "Western New York and Pennsylvania Railway" was written and published by Paul V. Pietrak, Joseph G. Streamer, and James A. Van Brocklin in 2000.  The soft cover book has over 200 pages of text, many photos, maps and charts on this portion of the PRR which had lines in northwestern PA and western NY.  It covers the history, motive power, passenger and freight operations, stations and other facilities, and historical antecdotes on the railroad, its predecessors and succesors.  It is probably available from well known railroad book dealers and I highly recommend it.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_ba.3498d275.2b52efcc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:28:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information In a message dated 1/10/03 11:42:14 AM, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes: << I've been trying to dig out information about the PRR in Buffalo, NY. Although I have gone to and through many web pages, I don't find a lot. Is(are) there any published book(s) that give detailed information on PRR operations in Buffalo, NY? >> I was assigned to Buffalo in July, 1960 for an 18 month training program but lasted only 9 months before I got promoted to Cincinnati. The Division headquarters was down on Seneca Street in an industrial section and right across the street from a nasty eating place we called "Dirty Mary's." In those days, coffee was prepared in percolators and most work areas were not equipped. So, if you want coffee, you had to go across the street to Dirty Mary's. It is strange because to this day, I remember the white ceramic cups she used, how they were chipped and ground and how vile her coffee was. If you are in Buffalo and haven't checked the library, you might want to see if they have the old newspapers on microfilm. While I was there, I remember some press coverage and assume that the Pensny was always a subject for coverage. The PRR was a large employer and paid lots of property taxes. IIRC, the was an automobile assembly plant (Ford?) nearby and there was a shift from using trucks to haul in parts to rail. One day we began to get these beautiful new flat cars with special rigging holding dozens of automobile frames. There was coverage in the Buffalo paper about all this. I also learned a lot about discrimination from my brief tour in Buffalo. First, they used to point out people sleeping in doorways up and down Seneca on Monday mornings as being Indians. I had never been aware of that perspective before. Second, was a disparity in wages. Buffalo was the first place that I ever had a secretary/clerk to do my routine administrative work. And, on the Pennsy, most of the positions were filled by males. The rationale was that since these employees might have to accompany the Division Superintendent over the Division on the Superintendent's Rail Car, these folks couldn't be females and had to be males. Then, as males, they had to be paid as though they were heads of households. Thus, the Pennsy was always able to attract clerical employees because the pay scales were generally higher than market norms because they were male, rather than female based. I don't know if this distinction exists today although I doubt the BRAC [or its successor] would have willingly given it up. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Basket Case Brass 0-6-0 Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:27:23 -0500 Group, Here is a link to a scan of a PRR 0-6-0 I picked up for 35.00 at a train show today. Could sombody help me identify the manufacturer? Open frame motor and the wheels are not sprung. Did not come in a box. http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?Page=Last Thanks for your help Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:50:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Basket Case Brass 0-6-0 Hey Sam, Did you attend the McMennimy Hall Train Show today in Niles? If so I seen that engine before you bought it. The dealer originally priced it at $50.00. It is a PRR "B6sb" wanna be imported by HO Train Company, sometimes listed as an AHM model. It was imported in the mid 1960's. I believe the orignal prices were under $20.00. Lots of work to detail per PRR practice. But for the price it is a stand in....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] More BLI GG1 pictures posted Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:59:02 -0500

 
Broadway Limited Imports has posted more pictures of their upcoming GG1 on their website.
 
Eric Lauterbach
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 05:25:49 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power II errata --0-447206454-1042464349=:73595 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, does someone has errata for this book and the 2 others? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-447206454-1042464349=:73595 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi, does someone has errata for this book and the 2 others?

Thanks, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-447206454-1042464349=:73595-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:28:07 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance > Hello Greg; Thanks for the info.Not what I really wanted to hear as I >was hoping someone had cast that pilot at one time or another.I will try >and check with MDC on the cylinders.They probably are not selling parts as >you said. THANKS AGAIN E.J. I'm puzzled by Greg's comment as the cast pilot has been available for years from Cal Scale or Precision...Walthers shows it as in stock http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/190-387 "PRR Solid Welded w/Drop Coupler Walthers Part # 190-387, p. 966 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference HO scale, $6.75, currently in stock at Walthers" Is this pilot wrong for a K4? (not that I really care as this is some fantasmic futuristic invention that hasn't occured yet in my world ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:34:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance From: Jerry Britton On 1/13/03 9:28 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> Hello Greg; Thanks for the info.Not what I really wanted to hear as I >> was hoping someone had cast that pilot at one time or another.I will try >> and check with MDC on the cylinders.They probably are not selling parts as >> you said. THANKS AGAIN E.J. > > I'm puzzled by Greg's comment as the cast pilot has been available for > years from Cal Scale or Precision...Walthers shows it as in stock > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/190-387 I don't have the original post handy, but I think the original request was for an N scale pilot, not HO. > > "PRR Solid Welded w/Drop Coupler > Walthers Part # 190-387, p. 966 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference > HO scale, $6.75, currently in stock at Walthers" > > Is this pilot wrong for a K4? (not that I really care as this is some > fantasmic futuristic invention that hasn't occured yet in my world ) > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: (Some observations) RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:52:03 -0500 I remember during the late 1950s when I was a denizen of the Altoona area........ The ore trains had three unit helpers (RSD-12's) spliced into the middle of the train and three (RSD-12s) on the rear. Nobody had radios OR train phone. The train would stop after the middle helpers were clear of the tunnel. I guess the lead engineer just took a wild guess where that point was. The crew on the center helper would pull the pin ahead of the helpers and close the angle cock on the rear hopper and the front part of the train would pull ahead so that the middle helpers could turn on the loop track. Since the train was on a curve I don't believe they could pass hand signals to the head end. But here is the best part. Quite often because of the lack of air in the tunnel (it was full of Alco exhaust!) One or more of the helper units would have shut down for lack of oxygen. On one occasion I saw ALL THREE units shut down and the crew was having a helluva time getting them started. When that happened, all hell would let loose, especially if the rear three helpers were still inside the tunnel and the crews as well as the diesels starving for oxygen! I have ridden passenger units (EMDs)through those tunnels with one of the 8600 series Alcos leading up ahead, and been hoping for the end of the tunnel to come real soon because there was no air to breathe. The old timers told me that when they ran the T-1s through those tunnels they often had to get down on their knees and keep their noses close to the deck to get enough oxygen to stay alive in the tunnels. That's scary isn't it? Bill Volkmer (still breathing) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Mark Lehman Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 8:38 AM To: William Bigler; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thats good reasoning Bill but the speed of the trains is what really got me thinking about where the passenger help cut off at. The videos I have show several trains coming out of the Galitzin tunnel (west bound). Yes the freights were going pretty slow but the passenger trains were cooking on by at a good clip! I guess they could stop a lot quicker. I wonder if the passenger trains that stopped at Cresson would keep there helpers and cut off there.-------Mark------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:23:53 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50 Patrick asks: > >Is it just me or does the photo of the post war R50b on the Walthers web >page look brown..... > >Does anyone know if the pre-war version will be a better colour? Gang, I'm just back from Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach Florida. Bill Wischer (sp?) of Wallthers had two pf the (pre?)production R50Bs with him, and for my eyes, the color looks perfect. It is Tuscan, not the maroon that has been foisted on us by many manufacturers. I think you will like it - Greg Martin should get either the credit or the blame depepnding on your point of view. He has sworn me to secrecy on the color mix, because you won't BELIEVE it anyway . The cars look xcellent - I did not compare to a scale drawing, and didn't look at the the fine pojnts of grab location. The strong points are the carbody, drill points for all the grabs, adn the trucks. The weakest point are the nonexistent underbody detail (same as their REA reefer). I would have hoped that a $29 list car would have better (after all Kaydee can do it, but OTOH, KD tooled that detail a number of years ago). On the whole its a real winner for anyone needing an R50B!! BTW, Bill says send him PHOTOS of other schemes and he WILL do them! Anyone got the Futura scheme in a photo??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:27:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] MPB54 usage >In re-reading the Summer 2002 Keystone article about a mixed train ride on >a branch in central PA, it sank in that the train included an MPB54 as the >passenger accomodations. I had not realized these cars were used in >anything but electrified service. Shame on me. Can anyone comment on, or >point me to sources on, the use of the various xx54 classes in >non-electrified territory. This may solve a problem on my layout. Many >thanks. Lee Rainey Lee, The cars were classed mpXX prior to the addition of electrical equipment. Thus, the mpb54 you are looking at is a 62' steel combine, almost certainly WITHOUT pantograph or electric control equipment. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:39:03 -0500 Bruce, Your're making the mistake many HO modelers are guilty of - assuming that's the only scale anyone models in! You should know better with me, as you've seen my N scale PRR models!!! E.J. and and I were referring to N scale PRR K4's and B8's! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance > > Hello Greg; Thanks for the info.Not what I really wanted to hear as I > >was hoping someone had cast that pilot at one time or another.I will try > >and check with MDC on the cylinders.They probably are not selling parts as > >you said. THANKS AGAIN E.J. > > I'm puzzled by Greg's comment as the cast pilot has been available for > years from Cal Scale or Precision...Walthers shows it as in stock > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/190-387 > > "PRR Solid Welded w/Drop Coupler > Walthers Part # 190-387, p. 966 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference > HO scale, $6.75, currently in stock at Walthers" > > Is this pilot wrong for a K4? (not that I really care as this is some > fantasmic futuristic invention that hasn't occured yet in my world ) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:21:04 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance OOOPS!!! How about if I blame repetitive lack of sleep...too much going on at Proto Rails, Cocoa to waste time asleep, and then I rolled in a little late last night after driving from just south of Melbourne (layout tours...SPECTACULAR C&O layout and Mike Brock's INCREDIBLE UP layout). Well, the part IS avail. in HO...maybe you should think bigger BTW, I'll update more later, but there was a fantastic clinic on etching brass...PRR 2 and 3 rail fence posts are availble for VERY reasonable prices, as well as blank keystones/circles and brass numbers as well as perhaps custom numbers...so maybe some etched parts could be looked at? (although that is better as a cast part) Happy Rails Bruce >Bruce, > >Your're making the mistake many HO modelers are guilty of - assuming that's >the only scale anyone models in! > >You should know better with me, as you've seen my N scale PRR models!!! >E.J. and and I were referring to N scale PRR K4's and B8's! > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bruce F. Smith" >To: >Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:28 AM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance > > >> > Hello Greg; Thanks for the info.Not what I really wanted to hear as >I >> >was hoping someone had cast that pilot at one time or another.I will try >> >and check with MDC on the cylinders.They probably are not selling parts >as >> >you said. THANKS AGAIN E.J. >> >> I'm puzzled by Greg's comment as the cast pilot has been available for >> years from Cal Scale or Precision...Walthers shows it as in stock >> http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/190-387 >> >> "PRR Solid Welded w/Drop Coupler >> Walthers Part # 190-387, p. 966 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference >> HO scale, $6.75, currently in stock at Walthers" >> >> Is this pilot wrong for a K4? (not that I really care as this is some >> fantasmic futuristic invention that hasn't occured yet in my world ) >> >> Happy Rails >> Bruce >> >> >> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >> Scott-Ritchey Research Center >> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >> >> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin >> __ >> / \ >> __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ >> |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | >> | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| >> |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| >> | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MPB54 usage Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:23:28 -0500 Lee, What the train in question probably had in it's consist was a PB54 not an MPB54. This would have been one of the standard steam era commuter coaches used prior to electrification. When the Philly area commuter electrification program began, the Railroad converted many of these cars to electric operation. Thus, the "M" designation (for motorized) was added to the PB54 (Passenger-Baggage-54' length) designation. MP54 was the class of a motorized coach car. Not all P54's were converted, and remained in service as originally built. Also MP54's were built new, after electrification was shown to be a success. Hope this helps. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: LeeRainey@aol.com [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 10:05 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] MPB54 usage In re-reading the Summer 2002 Keystone article about a mixed train ride on a branch in central PA, it sank in that the train included an MPB54 as the passenger accomodations. I had not realized these cars were used in anything but electrified service. Shame on me. Can anyone comment on, or point me to sources on, the use of the various xx54 classes in non-electrified territory. This may solve a problem on my layout. Many thanks. Lee Rainey **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:26:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] HH-1 Sounds From: Jerry Britton Regarding the PRR's HH-1's... These were N&W Class Y3, I believe. Is it reasonable to say that it would sound like the N&W Class A? Reason I ask...the HH-1's are coming out in N scale. Soundtraxx has the sound for the N&W Class A. If it known to be almost the same, then I've got it made. Did the PRR change the whistles or anything? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:28:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Gary sez: >James, List, > >I just heard back from Pacific Mountain concerning their previously >announced N6b. Here is Allan's reply: > >("Lack of drawings, information and demand has put the N6b on indefinite >hold", Allan ) > > Well, it looks like we need to wait for another comapny to release >an affordable N6b. Once an item is put on hold, it usually dosn't get >produced. I would point out that this is a problem with the N6b and not with Pacific Mountain. They are VERY good at getting stuff done and their stuff is spectacular. Some of the discussins we had regarding this car at Cocoa indicate that good drawings are VERY tough to come by, mostly dues to its LW origin. We modelers, in our interest in correct modeling then (rightfully) drive the market to produce correct versions. Without the drawings, no-one, not the resin casters, not the laser cutters are going to do this car. Tom V., do you have or know who does have drawings of these cars that could go to Pacific Mountain? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:48:24 -0500 Bruce, It seems that you have Walthers ear. If indeed the R50B trucks (I am assuming they are 2DP5's) are good looking and roll well they need to be motivated to release the trucks as a separte item soon after model introduction. In the last e-mail correspondence I had with their Customer Service Dept. they indicated that the trucks would probably be released as an end item sometime during 2004. IMHO, this is a mistake - there are a lot of R50B's and P70 coaches running around on inaccurate or poor rolling trucks that could use help now. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50 >Patrick asks: > >> >>Is it just me or does the photo of the post war R50b on the Walthers web >>page look brown..... >> >>Does anyone know if the pre-war version will be a better colour? > >Gang, > >I'm just back from Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach Florida. Bill Wischer >(sp?) of Wallthers had two pf the (pre?)production R50Bs with him, and for >my eyes, the color looks perfect. It is Tuscan, not the maroon that has >been foisted on us by many manufacturers. I think you will like it - Greg >Martin should get either the credit or the blame depepnding on your >point of view. He has sworn me to secrecy on the color mix, because you >won't BELIEVE it anyway . The cars look xcellent - I did not compare >to a scale drawing, and didn't look at the the fine pojnts of grab >location. The strong points are the carbody, drill points for all the >grabs, adn the trucks. The weakest point are the nonexistent underbody >detail (same as their REA reefer). I would have hoped that a $29 list car >would have better (after all Kaydee can do it, but OTOH, KD tooled that >detail a number of years ago). On the whole its a real winner for anyone >needing an R50B!! > >BTW, Bill says send him PHOTOS of other schemes and he WILL do them! >Anyone got the Futura scheme in a photo??? > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] HH-1 Sounds Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:04:47 -0500 Jerry, The whistle would likely be the same, but the exhaust sound would not. The Y3's (and all Y's) were compound articulated or Mallets, while the A's were simple articulateds. So, with Mallets, the rear cylinders exhausted into the front ones, while on the A's all four exhausted out the stack. The A's had a much sharper exhaust as I recall. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: [PRR] HH-1 Sounds > Regarding the PRR's HH-1's... > > These were N&W Class Y3, I believe. Is it reasonable to say that it would > sound like the N&W Class A? > > Reason I ask...the HH-1's are coming out in N scale. Soundtraxx has the > sound for the N&W Class A. If it known to be almost the same, then I've got > it made. > > Did the PRR change the whistles or anything? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:11:55 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] HH-1 Sounds Gregg/Jerry: On the soundtraxx decoders, the compound articulated/simple articulated is a CV setting, so that shouldn't effect decoder selection, just programming. Any decoder may be used for either. There is a small bit of adjustment that can be made for "sharpness" on the decoders (called "exhaust tone"). Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Paint questions Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:32:33 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2BB08.3AC75670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, First off let me say thanks to all who replied on the questions on PRR = steam modeling and freight cars. I have a question I thought I should = ask here though (my membership on the steam-era freight car list is = pending right now). I am wondering if resin kits can be painted with = "environmentally friendly" paints? And also what would be the suggested = company to buy from? I am not looking to solve that age old question on = "what color is right," just others experiences with these paints since = we are getting ready to move overseas where I cannot have the enamel = based paints. Thanks for any pointers and suggestions on this one. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2BB08.3AC75670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
First off let me say thanks to all who = replied on=20 the questions on PRR steam modeling and freight cars.  I have a = question I=20 thought I should ask here though (my membership on the steam-era freight = car=20 list is pending right now).  I am wondering if resin kits can be = painted=20 with "environmentally friendly" paints?  And also what would be the = suggested company to buy from?  I am not looking to solve that age = old=20 question on "what color is right," just others experiences with these = paints=20 since we are getting ready to move overseas where I cannot have the = enamel based=20 paints.  Thanks for any pointers and suggestions on this = one.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2BB08.3AC75670-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:59:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions Jeremy asks: > Hello all, First off let me say thanks to all who replied on the >questions on PRR steam modeling and freight cars. I have a question I >thought I should ask here though (my membership on the steam-era freight >car list is pending right now). I am wondering if resin kits can be >painted with "environmentally friendly" paints? And also what would be >the suggested company to buy from? The bottom line is yes. I am a big fan of Poly Scale. I will say that my previous enthusiasm was dampened over the past year, when I upgraded my air compressor...seems I had tons of trouble with my badger 150 airbrush clogging because I was getting too much air!! I have since upgraded to a Badger 200-20, and it works FANTASTIC with little or no thinning (ie paint straight out of the bottle) and at lower psi than before (15-20 psi now). When using Poly Scale or any of the other Alcolol based paints, remember that they need to be strained...badger makes a little strainer that goes on the intake tube - works perfect. These paints also work well with brush painting as they are self leveling. One helpful hint is to prewet the brush beforw putting it in the paint. With resin kits, surface prep needs some attention. Manufacturers suggest an initial wash of parts in Dawn dish detergent (that brand apparently has no added oils, which others do). Another appraoch is to wipe the car down with iospropanol just before painting. I not longer do these, but I do grit blast the car (has the advantage of etching the brass parts so tha paint goes on and sticks better) and then do a wash in whatever dish soap (diluted) that I have. Seems to work fine. Oh yeah, alwasy handle the clean part with gloves on! Poly scale colors that work for PRR: PRR Tuscan, PRR Brusnwick Green (DGLE), Special Oxide Red (for FCC) Happy Painting Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:02:17 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Steve Hoxie writes (steveh@dotstar.net) writes: > Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar which had not been done. In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications > to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL Steve Elden and all, Although the article Steve mentions is well done it only produces a "stand-in" as the side sheathing is not the same. Sorry if my post comes late and was answered by someone else but I just got back into town from the PROTOTYPE RAIL RAILS TO THE SEA 3 last night and we all had a great time... Just ask Mark Kerlick, Bruce Smith, Dayna Warner, and Randy Wilson... hope I didn't miss anyone, but I'm sure I did. WE saw the first production R-50b and they should be on the water as of this past Saturday... That means about another 30 days to the dealers. This will please everyone but perhaps the Brass manufacturers. Thanks again to the PRRT&HS and in particular Bob Johnson. And yes they will do them in N Scale at some point. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:13:14 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50 Frank sez: >Bruce, > >It seems that you have Walthers ear. I wish! I just know where the ear is!! > If indeed the R50B trucks (I am >assuming they are 2DP5's) are >good looking and roll well they need to be motivated to release the trucks >as a separte item soon after model introduction. In the last e-mail >correspondence I had with their Customer Service Dept. they indicated that >the trucks would probably be released as an end item >sometime during 2004. IMHO, this is a mistake - there are a lot of >R50B's and P70 coaches running around on inaccurate or poor rolling trucks >that could use help now. Frank, you can argue this as much as you want, but from the Walthers perspective, this is the way the business works! The fact that we may see the trucks as a seperate part is reason to BE HAPPY...the factory run was for enough parts to make up the ordered cars...you can't just conjure up a few thousand trucks from somewhere. Someone has to convince marketing that they will sell...someone has to pay CASH for them...someone has to have mold time... Just the dealy to get on the mold could be a year! (ie the 2004 date). Bill (from Walthers) pointed out repeatedly at Cocoa that inventory is bad for business. Walthers is not interested in making trucks so that you can buy them when you need them...ain't the way the business works, and if we want R50bs and 2D-P5s, we need to work within those constraints. So when the trucks do come out...buy as many as you think you will EVER need, cause Walthers doesn't want to keep an inventory. A good example of this is the PC decorated Budd cars. These were produced when a lot of modelers asked for them. Apparently, they have been dogs selling...on the shelf for over a year. Don't expect too many more PC cars from Walthers!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:48:01 +0000 Somebody must be buying from a different Walthers than I am if they are looking for good rolling trucks! > Frank sez: > >Bruce, > > > >It seems that you have Walthers ear. > > I wish! I just know where the ear is!! > > > If indeed the R50B trucks (I am > >assuming they are 2DP5's) are > >good looking and roll well they need to be motivated to release the trucks > >as a separte item soon after model introduction. In the last e-mail > >correspondence I had with their Customer Service Dept. they indicated that > >the trucks would probably be released as an end item > >sometime during 2004. IMHO, this is a mistake - there are a lot of > >R50B's and P70 coaches running around on inaccurate or poor rolling trucks > >that could use help now. > > Frank, you can argue this as much as you want, but from the Walthers > perspective, this is the way the business works! The fact that we may see > the trucks as a seperate part is reason to BE HAPPY...the factory run was > for enough parts to make up the ordered cars...you can't just conjure up a > few thousand trucks from somewhere. Someone has to convince marketing that > they will sell...someone has to pay CASH for them...someone has to have > mold time... Just the dealy to get on the mold could be a year! (ie the > 2004 date). Bill (from Walthers) pointed out repeatedly at Cocoa that > inventory is bad for business. Walthers is not interested in making trucks > so that you can buy them when you need them...ain't the way the business > works, and if we want R50bs and 2D-P5s, we need to work within those > constraints. So when the trucks do come out...buy as many as you think you > will EVER need, cause Walthers doesn't want to keep an inventory. A good > example of this is the PC decorated Budd cars. These were produced when a > lot of modelers asked for them. Apparently, they have been dogs > selling...on the shelf for over a year. Don't expect too many more PC > cars from Walthers!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI engine Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:49:51 +0000 Now that the engine has been out for a couple of months is there anything we should know about it that isn't holding up or doing better than originally thought? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:51:14 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Cars Eric, I believe I, and several others have posted data on this subject on Jerry's Keystone Crossings website. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Eric Lauterbach wrote: > With the new cars coming out, I am having a tough time remembering > which plastic passenger cars are accurate for the Pennsy and for what > era. Could someone please list which plastic passenger cars are > accurate for the Pennsy and for what era? This would be greatly > appreciated.Thanks,Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] X38 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:56:05 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BB4E.92556B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greg and Steve and all; Thanks for the feedback. I also suspected that it would be difficult to do in HO, as I believe that the X37 and X38 (in unrebuilt form, at least) shared similar side sheathing patterns and roof patterns. I suppose one might investigate the possibility of resin-bashing a Sunshine X37, but talk about expensive! Too bad, as the X38 was numerous, found in many kinds of service (including dedicated auto parts), and really cool looking to boot! Elden -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:02 PM To: steveh@dotstar.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Steve Hoxie writes (steveh@dotstar.net) writes: > Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar which had not been done. In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications > to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL Steve Elden and all, Although the article Steve mentions is well done it only produces a "stand-in" as the side sheathing is not the same. Sorry if my post comes late and was answered by someone else but I just got back into town from the PROTOTYPE RAIL RAILS TO THE SEA 3 last night and we all had a great time... Just ask Mark Kerlick, Bruce Smith, Dayna Warner, and Randy Wilson... hope I didn't miss anyone, but I'm sure I did. WE saw the first production R-50b and they should be on the water as of this past Saturday... That means about another 30 days to the dealers. This will please everyone but perhaps the Brass manufacturers. Thanks again to the PRRT&HS and in particular Bob Johnson. And yes they will do them in N Scale at some point. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BB4E.92556B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] X38

Greg and Steve and all;
Thanks for the feedback.  I also suspected that = it would be difficult to do in HO, as I believe that the X37 and X38 = (in unrebuilt form, at least) shared similar side sheathing patterns = and roof patterns.  I suppose one might investigate the = possibility of resin-bashing a Sunshine X37, but talk about = expensive!  Too bad, as the X38 was numerous, found in many kinds = of service (including dedicated auto parts), and really cool looking to = boot!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:02 PM
To: steveh@dotstar.net; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass


Steve Hoxie writes (steveh@dotstar.net) = writes:

> Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar = which had not been done.  In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad = Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications =

> to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the = X38.
> 
> Steve Hoxie
> Pensacola FL

Steve Elden and all,

Although the article Steve mentions is well done it = only produces a "stand-in" as the side sheathing is not the = same. Sorry if my post comes late and was answered by someone else but = I just got back into town from the PROTOTYPE RAIL RAILS TO THE SEA 3 = last night and we all had a great time... Just ask Mark Kerlick, Bruce = Smith, Dayna Warner, and Randy Wilson... hope I didn't miss anyone, but = I'm sure I did.

WE saw the first production R-50b and they should be = on the water as of this past Saturday... That means about another 30 = days to the dealers. This will please everyone but perhaps the Brass = manufacturers. Thanks again to the PRRT&HS and in particular Bob = Johnson. And yes they will do them in N Scale at some point.

Greg Martin  

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BB4E.92556B70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:10:05 EST Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives --part1_180.1484334f.2b54cb7d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes --part1_180.1484334f.2b54cb7d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or  N6B caboose available in N scale.

Al Guckes --part1_180.1484334f.2b54cb7d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:09:14 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Looking for assistance Hi Gregg & E.J.: Gregg wrote: >You're on your own for a cast pilot for a K4s, but it shouldn't be hard to >file out of .080 styrene. Well Gregg, I dunno about that! The shape is kinda complex, nothing is strait, nothing is even at rite angles! And then you need to cut out the step into each side. And then remember this was a drop-coupler pilot. So the cutout for the drop coupler needs to be done, and then you need to fit a dummy coupler in the drop position (or put it in the working position? Less likely, but good for double-heading). So I probably wouldn't say "it shouldn't be hard"... E.J.: I remember Mark Gribbler posted a photo of a very nicely detailed Minitrix K4s in the PRR N-scale list. The photo may still be there in the list database. It had a cast pilot on it. I don't recall if Mark ever wrote up how he did the pilot. I was in touch with him briefly a long while back, but have since lost touch with him, but obviously he managed to accomplish this task. >The only slide valve cylinder block I am aware of is on the MDC Roundhouse >2-8-0, but I don't believe MDC is selling individual parts. This would >work for a B8a. E.J.: Check the Bmann 0-4-0 (current production, not the older ones which were different) - I think this might meet your needs. Bmann sells replacement parts. - Claus Greetings; I model in N-Scale and I'm trying to find parts or guidance on to locos I want to cross-knit.Did,or does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? Does anyone know a source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:44:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2BB55.5E32D880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, The only H9 has been a brass one by Key. The show up on eBay nnow and = then and bring aroud $500. I built an H10 approximation years ago. If = you can get the MiniTrix K4 and B6sb boilers you should be able to make = one out of a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0. Atlas is about to release a = VO1000, of which PRR had 6. Quality Craft and then Gloor Craft made a = wood and metal N6b kit that makes an excellent model. Again, these kits = show up on eBay on occasion and can be bought fairly reasonably. I've = got two but they're not for sale! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ALGUCKES@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the = Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or = BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale.=20 Al Guckes=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2BB55.5E32D880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
The only H9 has been a brass one by Key. The show up = on eBay=20 nnow and then and bring aroud $500. I built an H10 approximation years = ago. If=20 you can get the MiniTrix K4  and B6sb boilers you should be able to = make=20 one out of a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0. Atlas is about to release a = VO1000, of=20 which PRR had 6. Quality Craft and then Gloor Craft made a wood and = metal N6b=20 kit that makes an excellent model. Again, these kits show up on eBay on = occasion=20 and can be bought fairly reasonably. I've got two but they're not for=20 sale!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ALGUCKES@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 = 9:10=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR = steam=20 locomotives

I am returning to N scale to possibly model the = Newton=20 Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there = ever been=20 an H9 or BS10a locomotive or  N6B caboose available in N scale.=20

Al Guckes ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2BB55.5E32D880-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:58:33 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] GG1 relettering During what frame did the GG1's use the Futura Lettering? Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:03:04 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UQYCCjcr5i/vMJ22dYYOWg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the hobby. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes --Boundary_(ID_UQYCCjcr5i/vMJ22dYYOWg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the hobby.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives

I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or  N6B caboose available in N scale.

Al Guckes
--Boundary_(ID_UQYCCjcr5i/vMJ22dYYOWg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:27:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance EJ, Claus, Another option to the drop coupler is the fabricated early type solid pilot. You may be able to use the MiniTrix pilot and add sheet styrene similar to what the PRR did by taking plate metal to a standard pilot.. There is a good photo in Many Faces of the K4. It looks easier to do than a scratch built drop pilot. Just a thought...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Howdy" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:28:14 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I have a Key Imports H8SA but I am not real happy with the way it runs. I am planning a remotor for it. Just remember that you can get twice as much railroading in N scale. Howdy On 13 Jan 2003, at 22:44, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Al, The only H9 has been a brass one by Key. The show up on eBay nnow and then and bring aroud $500. I built an H10 approximation years ago. If you can get the MiniTrix K4 and B6sb boilers you should be able to make one out of a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0. Atlas is about to release a VO1000, of which PRR had 6. Quality Craft and then Gloor Craft made a wood and metal N6b kit that makes an excellent model. Again, these kits show up on eBay on occasion and can be bought fairly reasonably. I've got two but they're not for sale! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: ALGUCKES@aol.com To: PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] More BLI GG1 pictures posted Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:43:21 -0500 I have looked at the pictures and get the feeling that the end is round, not the correct parabolic. Can someone verify the shape of the end. I asked this question before and never saw any answers. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Eric Lauterbach [SMTP:ealauterbach@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 9:59 PM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] More BLI GG1 pictures posted << File: ATT00000.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:47:48 -0600 Following up on Bruce's response: > Jeremy asks: > > > Hello all, First off let me say thanks to all who replied on the > >questions on PRR steam modeling and freight cars. I have a question I > >thought I should ask here though (my membership on the steam-era freight > >car list is pending right now). I am wondering if resin kits can be > >painted with "environmentally friendly" paints? And also what would be > >the suggested company to buy from? > I must enthusiastically agree about the Badger 200-20. I was also struggling with a Badger 150 which clogged and grew paint deposits at the tip. It became a royal pain. What a difference! I usually use Modelflex paint since that is what I can get locally, and no thinning is required. I use Badger's recommended 23-28 psi. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] X38 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:48:54 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0A0B_01C2BB55.F366A580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] X38Greg, Elden and all-- Drat--the dreaded "stand-in" disease! I counted the side panels but I = sure missed the side panel construction. At least I found that the P2K = car has the correct roof--Murphy Improved Solid Panel--for cars numbered = 73700 - 76099. X38's in the other two number series had the PRR unique = riveted steel roof in common with the 40 ft X37. Reference the Keystone = December 1981. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0A0B_01C2BB55.F366A580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] X38
Greg, Elden and=20 all--
Drat--the dreaded "stand-in" = disease!  I=20 counted the side panels but I sure missed the side panel = construction.  At=20 least I found that the P2K car has the correct roof--Murphy Improved = Solid=20 Panel--for cars numbered 73700 - 76099.  X38's in the other two = number=20 series had the PRR unique riveted steel roof in common with the 40 ft = X37. =20 Reference the Keystone December 1981.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola = FL 
------=_NextPart_000_0A0B_01C2BB55.F366A580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:59:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2BB5F.D30061A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al,=20 The only way to adequately depict the majesty and sweep of the PRR is in = N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything that can be = done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched forty years ago and = have not regretted it.! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr=20 To: ALGUCKES@aol.com ; PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the = hobby. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the = Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or = BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale.=20 Al Guckes=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2BB5F.D30061A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
The only way to adequately depict the majesty and = sweep of the=20 PRR is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything = that can=20 be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched forty years ago = and have=20 not regretted it.!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gregory=20 Vlassopoulos Jr
To: ALGUCKES@aol.com ; PRR-Talk
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 = 11:03=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR = steam=20 locomotives

Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of = the=20 hobby.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com
Sent: = Monday,=20 January 13, 2003 9:10 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: = [PRR] N=20 scale PRR steam locomotives

I am=20 returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the = Cardington=20 branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a=20 locomotive or  N6B caboose available in N scale.

Al=20 Guckes
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2BB5F.D30061A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 relettering Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:01:59 -0500 Ken 1938-1941, same as all other PRR motive power. Gregg Malhkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Meyer" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:58 PM Subject: [PRR] GG1 relettering > During what frame did the GG1's use the Futura Lettering? > Ken > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Meyer Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:58:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] GG1 relettering During what frame did the GG1's use the Futura Lettering? Ken "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:30:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions Bruce and list members, I have a real quandry. I was taught airbrushing by a professional in the 1980's. I also learned how to paint by using the "dreaded" solvent-based paints. I have tried many of the acrylic and water-based paints and I have never gotten a high-gloss finish that is necessary to apply decals. Without the smooth-glossy finish, decals look milky and do not settle properly. I use both a Pasche H-style and the newer Millenium double-action brush and every time I have attempted to paint a locomotive or car with anything but Scalecoat paint it has resulted in spending money for paint stripper. I'd love to know how you can attain a high gloss finish with the newer paints and without having to spend every three minutes clearing the nozzle on the airbrush. Badger's early products and Accuflex, resulted in having to purchase a new airbrush and a pretty colored bottle filled with a jelly-like substance colored DGLE. Wasted money and wasted time. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Bruce F. Smith" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:59:13 -0600 Jeremy asks: > Hello all, First off let me say thanks to all who replied on the >questions on PRR steam modeling and freight cars. I have a question I >thought I should ask here though (my membership on the steam-era freight >car list is pending right now). I am wondering if resin kits can be >painted with "environmentally friendly" paints? And also what would be >the suggested company to buy from? The bottom line is yes. I am a big fan of Poly Scale. I will say that my previous enthusiasm was dampened over the past year, when I upgraded my air compressor...seems I had tons of trouble with my badger 150 airbrush clogging because I was getting too much air!! I have since upgraded to a Badger 200-20, and it works FANTASTIC with little or no thinning (ie paint straight out of the bottle) and at lower psi than before (15-20 psi now). When using Poly Scale or any of the other Alcolol based paints, remember that they need to be strained...badger makes a little strainer that goes on the intake tube - works perfect. These paints also work well with brush painting as they are self leveling. One helpful hint is to prewet the brush beforw putting it in the paint. http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:20:17 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] odd stuff/ETT questions The following turned up on a site suggested by the N&W list as a source of copal field photos. There are indeed many photos of coal towns, tipple, etc. There are also these two photos: http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/heritage/images/prr_train1.jpg http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/heritage/images/prr_train2.jpg I also have an ETT question: in the 1962 NY/PHILA/Chesapeake No.14 ETT, the engine and load restrictions tables list "special loads" L,M,I,J and notes where they can't be run. What are these letters referring to... The various engine listings are well explained. Jim McDaniel, curious in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:57:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Looking for assistance --part1_75.729264a.2b557132_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claus & all who responded. I was going through my junk box & found a brass cast pilot in it.I have no idea who made it or when it was made.The coupler cut out in it is all wrong but I can more than likely get it to work.I have had no luck with MDC on the cylinders.I will check out the Bachmann cylinders as suggested.Does anyone have a parts list for the MDC 2-8-0 they could scan & e-mail me direct??? THANKS to all again.E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_75.729264a.2b557132_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claus & all who responded.
  
   I was going through my junk box & found a brass cast pilot in it.I have no idea who
made it or when it was made.The coupler cut out in it is all wrong but I can more than likely get it to work.I have had no luck with MDC on the cylinders.I will check out the Bachmann cylinders as suggested.Does anyone have a parts list for the
MDC 2-8-0 they could scan & e-mail me direct??? THANKS to all again.E.J.
EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_75.729264a.2b557132_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:09:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions Nick asks: >I have a real quandry. I was taught airbrushing by a professional in the >1980's. >I also learned how to paint by using the "dreaded" solvent-based paints. I >have >tried many of the acrylic and water-based paints and I have never gotten a >high-gloss >finish that is necessary to apply decals. Without the smooth-glossy finish, >decals look milky and do not settle properly. I use both a Pasche H-style and >the newer Millenium double-action brush and every time I have attempted to >paint >a locomotive or car with anything but Scalecoat paint it has resulted in >spending >money for paint stripper. I'd love to know how you can attain a high gloss >finish >with the newer paints and without having to spend every three minutes clearing >the nozzle on the airbrush. Badger's early products and Accuflex, resulted in >having to purchase a new airbrush and a pretty colored bottle filled with a >jelly-like substance colored DGLE. Wasted money and wasted time. Nick, Yeah, there were defintiely problems with the early stuff!! Bottom line is that the new Badgere 200-20 is designed to work with the acrylics. It has a very short nozzle and there is a parabloic curve to the needle that help eliminate closgs. I find that the paint goes on icredibly smoothly. I used to just decal over that, but now I shoot with a coat of Poly Scale gloss, decal and shoot Poly Scale flat. (Their satin leaves a lot to be desired). When I decal, I use walthers solvaset, usually diluted with the water under the decal the first time and then applied straight (mine is 10 years old, so it has probalby lost some oooomph, making it easier to use). About 3 applications gets a nice flat decal, stuck down well. I do find that the decal will lift over time if I don't hit it with a protective coat of flat. BTW, if you hit it with flat, and see a lifted spot, just cut the spot carefully with a SHARP #11 blade, add more solvaset and snug it back down. The solvaset dissolves the flat coat and will usually result in an adhering decal with a flat coat in place!! (I usually hit it lightly again anyway). I also use solvbaset on a Q-tip to lighten areas of weathering . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:20:37 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 relettering >Ken > >1938-1941, same as all other PRR motive power. > >Gregg Malhkov Um, well, NOT EXACTLY . The dates are 1935-41. Here is some information I put together late last year: DGLE / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering with a small keystone on sides and noses with locomotive number in both was the "as delivered scheme" for #4801-4910(?). So this scheme origated in 1935 (Loewy). The side keystones were larger than the nose keystones. The height of the lettering "Pennsylvania" may have also changed circa 1937. Photos of this scheme are rare, and particularly of units above #4858 (the last of the flat pilots). I did locate a photos of #4859, 4861, 4863, 4867, 4892, 4896 & 4906 in this scheme indicating that some drop coupler locos could have worn the scheme, albeit briefly. This paint scheme would NEVER have been applied to locos 4911-4938. I did not find color photos, and therefore no clear indication of window frame color is possible. 4829 - one of a kind variant scheme in 1937 - the five stripes become 1 at the vents, may have been aluminum, not gold. Very short lived. Verified numbers from photographs: 4896 was displayed at the 1939 World's Fair 4802,4810,4813,4814,4820,4821,4824,4829,4831,4840,4842,4843,4845,4848, 4856. Note that 4859 is preserved in Harrisburg and that at some point, its drop coupler pilot was switched for a flat pilot. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:19:21 +0000 How about buying the Cal Scale HO version and soaking it in water until it shrinks! :-) > EJ, Claus, > > Another option to the drop coupler is the fabricated early type > solid pilot. You may be able to use the MiniTrix pilot and add sheet > styrene similar to what the PRR did by taking plate metal to a standard > pilot.. There is a good photo in Many Faces of the K4. It looks easier > to do than a scratch built drop pilot. Just a thought...Gary > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:49:47 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: 4859 -- was Re: [PRR] GG1 relettering Bruce F. Smith wrote: > > > Verified numbers from photographs: > 4896 was displayed at the 1939 World's Fair > 4802,4810,4813,4814,4820,4821,4824,4829,4831,4840,4842,4843,4845,4848, > 4856. Note that 4859 is preserved in Harrisburg and that at some point, its drop coupler pilot was switched for a flat pilot. > Greetings to Bruce and the List: Not only the pilot(s) but possibly and maybe even probably the entire underframe appears to be that of a different GG1. Apparently at some point, Wilmington Shop began to quite freely swap cabs and underframes as needed. For the 4859, this occurred in the mid-1970s. No one really knows which locomotive's guts are underneath there. The number 4854 is chalked on the steam generator -- but of course, those components were changed out, too, so it's anyone's guess. The downside is that, in the language of preservation, the 4859 as it now appears is not completely "original fabric." The upside is that no other underframe/pilot was saved from any of the first production run GG1s (4801-4857) so this is the only extant example of that method of fabrication and technology. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:58:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Sherman's Creek Bridge at VIEW Interlocking From: Jerry Britton I have just received in a custom-prepared version of Model Railroad Stoneworks Rockville Bridge kit, for use on my layout at the Sherman's Bridge location at Duncannon, where VIEW tower stood. Like the prototype, my model has six arches. The Rockville kit is modified in that instead of having high piers, only 3-4 courses of stone of the piers will be above the water, again per the prototype. I have some photos of the real bridge here... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/tour_view.ws4d Now, the reason for my post... We discussed this about 18 months ago, with no real conclusions. I am hoping there may be new folks on the list, or new information, that can help. At some point, steel girders were added to the outsides of the arches (see the pics) for added support. This happened all over the system. Anyone know the approximate timeframe this was done on the Sherman's Creek/VIEW bridge? I would like to model the bridge without the steel. I know, modeler's license, I can do whatever I want. I am modeling 1954. If it was "sometime in the 50's" I will model it without the girders and with a clear conscious. If it was "early 50's" then I might take advantage of modeler's license. But if it was earlier than that, then I will likely include the steel. Anyone know? Anyone have dated (trustable) photos? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Streamlined K4 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:14:03 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BBDF.92BCE7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To all: I have a HO Brass Alco K4s Streamlined, Road Number 3768. I have finally decided to add some details, paint it in the bronze scheme mentioned on this list, and decal it. Can anyone recommend a paint mix for the bronze. Also, can anyone suggest decals. I looked at Champ and didn't see a specific set for the K4s streamlined. Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BBDF.92BCE7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Streamlined K4

To all:

I have a HO Brass Alco K4s Streamlined, Road Number 3768.

I have finally decided to add some details, paint it in the bronze scheme mentioned on this list, and decal it.

Can anyone recommend a paint mix for the bronze.

Also, can anyone suggest decals.  I looked at Champ and didn't see a specific set for the K4s streamlined.

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BBDF.92BCE7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:27:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 From: Jerry Britton On 1/14/03 10:14 AM, Colman Gerald (ColmanG@tce.com) wrote: > Also, can anyone suggest decals. I looked at Champ and didn't see a specific > set for the K4s streamlined. > I believe Champ had them at one time. Unfortunately, Champ is working its way out of business. They are making no new sets and are not re-printing out-of-stock sets. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:32:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] B60 color Greetings, Anyone know if the Pennsy painted all there B60s tuscan? I was watching my Middle Div. video, again. I noticed that several of the Passenger trains. had what looked like a B60 painted white or light grey. I could find no reference the these cars in my Pennsy color guid book. Were these Prr cars? Could these be crew cars for express trains.--------Mark L------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:42:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color From: Jerry Britton On 1/14/03 10:32 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know if the Pennsy painted all there B60s tuscan? I > was watching my Middle Div. video, again. I noticed that several of the > Passenger trains. had what looked like a B60 painted white or light > grey. I could find no reference the these cars in my Pennsy color guid > book. Were these Prr cars? Could these be crew cars for express > trains. It's called "dirt"! Head end cars were rarely washed and often had a grey look to them. Sometimes they appear a pale green in photos. Just the combo of the dirt/red/light combination. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:43:54 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 8 Jan, billd@gci-net.com wrote: > Don't forget that Tichey offers a USRA boxcar kit, which > were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent > (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used to > make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield > still offers theirs. Oddballs also has these decals, sheet #202, in multiple scales. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:48:21 +0000 Anybody know if they plan to do any with the fabricated pilot like the early ones had or will they all be the cast pilot? That might be a good investment casting for someone to offer to back date some G's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:51:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Fans--Helpers on the East&West slope Those poor crews on the T1s ! I guess the fans on the tunnel were insufficient to keep the tunnel clear of smoke. I'm curious how these fans worked. Did they suck or blow? Were these fans used for diesels after 1957 when steam power was ended. ---Mark--- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:43:28 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Port Royal tower Hello, everyone, Port Royal (46 miles w of Harrisburg) once had an interlocking tower about a mile west of the PRR station next to the eastbound tracks. There's a great photo of it both in Alexander's ON THE MAIN LINE and in the new Rau book. By sometime c. WWI the tower was gone, probably the result of completely 4- tracking the section between Port Royal and Mifflin. Anyway, does anyone know when this tower was removed? I believe the 4-tracking was completed c.1910. Thanks, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:24:42 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color >On 1/14/03 10:32 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > >> Greetings, Anyone know if the Pennsy painted all there B60s tuscan? I >> was watching my Middle Div. video, again. I noticed that several of the >> Passenger trains. had what looked like a B60 painted white or light >> grey. I could find no reference the these cars in my Pennsy color guid >> book. Were these Prr cars? Could these be crew cars for express >> trains. > > It's called "dirt"! > >Head end cars were rarely washed and often had a grey look to them. >Sometimes they appear a pale green in photos. Just the combo of the >dirt/red/light combination. Happened to me! Color photos of a DGLE express X29...no...wait...looking under the grabs there is some FCC showing, where the brakeman's gloves have rubbed...so the X29 is just COVERED with a black green slime . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:23:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance --part1_a5.33afbd61.2b55937d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is amazing 10,000 comedians out of work and we have Claus trying to break into the business. Ray Burghart --part1_a5.33afbd61.2b55937d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is amazing 10,000 comedians out of work and we have Claus trying to break into the business.

Ray Burghart --part1_a5.33afbd61.2b55937d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:27:39 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: X26 models was [PRR] Steam era modelers >On 8 Jan, billd@gci-net.com wrote: > >> Don't forget that Tichey offers a USRA boxcar kit, which >> were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent >> (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used to >> make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield >> still offers theirs. > >Oddballs also has these decals, sheet #202, in multiple >scales. This message reminded me to say that the Tichy car has the original roof and that all of the PRR cars received Hutchins roofs in the late 30's. These are modeled in the new Westerfield "unibody" kits, making the Westerfield the only correct model for a mid to late steam era PRR car IIRC. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:27:17 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] odd stuff/ETT questions The letters refer to classes of steam locomotives even though none were running in 1962. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:57:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 Jerry C, For decals you will have to jerry-rig (no pun intended) a set together. Start with the Futura Style lettering from Middle Division Decals. He has several lengths pf PENNSYLVANIA that you can choose from from the sheet and he may have Numbers for the Cab, not sure You will have to supply Stripes and the Circle Keystone for the Tender. The Circle Keystone is a little larger than the Micro Scale 5 tripe Diesel Loco decal so that won't work too well but it will work in a pinch. I used it once on the later day DGLE 3768. The biggest problem, if it isn't present in the Alco Box is the Winged Keystone for the Loco Shroud. Not sure if it is available anywhere else. I think I have a photo on my model pages of that 3768 I did. ....Gary PS: Good Luck on the Shade of Bronze. Pick something you like because no good records exsist of the actual color so who is to say it would be wrong.. I like Grif Tellers Rendition in his 1937 Calender Paintng "Ready to Go" . I have a Key Import 3768 in Bronze. It is no where near the Teller color. Who know's who is closer..... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:39:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 >Anybody know if they plan to do any with the fabricated pilot like the early >ones had or will they all be the cast pilot? That might be a good investment >casting for someone to offer to back date some G's. I have not received an answer to that question from BLI yet... The casting shown on the web site and Broadway's choice of paint schemes indicate that we will see another drop coupler version. It would be nice to see them come back with a flat pilot version in the next release, since it appears to be "just" a swap of the pilot castings. If not, a post release resin part might be in order. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:41:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] It's Never Too Early To Book! From: Jerry Britton The PRRT&HS convention is in Essington, PA (Philadelphia) this year, kicking off on Thursday, May 1 and culminating on Saturday evening, May 3. Though the program has not been finalized (nor am I the one to say it is), it's never too early to book hotel rooms! The hotel is Ramada Inn 76 Industrial Highway Essington PA 19029 610-521-9600 Be sure to ask for the PRRT&HS rate. The regular rate is $89 per night. Our convention rate is $69 per night. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:42:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color Its definitely not a dirty car. These single cars in the train stuck out like a sore thumb against the rest of the tuscan colored train. I understand the early color film and developing was not as it is today and could be misleading. To be a little more precise. The cars were white or light grey overall with the lower portion below the windows painted a darker grey or a light blue. There were 3or4 runbys of trains at Rockville that had one of these cars in its makeup.-----Mark--- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:50:39 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 > >To all: > >I have a HO Brass Alco K4s Streamlined, Road Number 3768. > >I have finally decided to add some details, paint it in the bronze scheme >mentioned on this list, and decal it. > >Can anyone recommend a paint mix for the bronze. No but I can reccomend asbestos underwear for anyone who does ...as Gary has indicated, the color "bronze" has been elusive to spf who care... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:59:51 -0500 Could it be a B60 in MOW colors? Light gray with "dark gray" dirt? Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sent: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:42:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color > Its definitely not a dirty car. These single cars in the train stuck > out like a sore thumb against the rest of the tuscan colored train. I > understand the early color film and developing was not as it is today > and could be misleading. To be a little more precise. The cars were > white or light grey overall with the lower portion below the windows > painted a darker grey or a light blue. There were 3or4 runbys of trains > at Rockville that had one of these cars in its makeup.-----Mark--- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:05:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Photo of B60 Greetings, Here is a scan from the video. http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:15:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of B60 From: Jerry Britton On 1/14/03 2:05 PM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Here is a scan from the video. > > http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ > You certainly are correct about the color. Doesn't look like a Pennsy scheme. Did the PRR sell any B60's to other roads and then run them in interchange service? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Photo of B60 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:26:30 -0500 Guys, Hard to tell from the picture, but this probably is NOT a PRR B60. The color scheme looks like MoPac which, like other roads, operated their cars in Pennsy trains. Lets see if someone can find Missouri Pacific passenger car equipment diagrams and pin down a class for this car. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net [mailto:L1sDRIVER@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:06 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Photo of B60 Greetings, Here is a scan from the video. http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:40:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of B60 From: Jerry Britton On 1/14/03 2:26 PM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > Hard to tell from the picture, but this probably is NOT a PRR B60. > The color scheme looks like MoPac which, like other roads, operated > their cars in Pennsy trains. Lets see if someone can find Missouri Pacific > passenger car equipment diagrams and pin down a class for this car. > I agree and was also thinking MoPac "Eagle", but I wasn't aware of baggage cars used in this service. The MoPac cars ran on the Penn Texas. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:41:20 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of B60 First, I presume everyone really means a B60b. B60s had clerestory roofs (and three more panels per side). But this car is defiantly NOT a B60b. Notice the roof vents , very un Pennsy, and it lacks the B60's signature low floor. Compare it to the car before which has the low floor and probably IS a B60b in messenger service as indicated by the roof vents. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > Guys, > > Hard to tell from the picture, but this probably is NOT a PRR B60. > The color scheme looks like MoPac which, like other roads, operated > their cars in Pennsy trains. Lets see if someone can find Missouri Pacific > passenger car equipment diagrams and pin down a class for this car. > > Buzz > > > -----Original Message----- > From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net [mailto:L1sDRIVER@webtv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:06 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Photo of B60 > > Greetings, Here is a scan from the video. > > http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of B60 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:49:15 -0500 Mark, Are you sure this is a B60? Take a close look compared to the car in front with regard to overall height and location of the beltrail. The colors on the car in question looks like those of the Missouri Pacific. I don't know how close the Missouri Pacific baggage cars were to the B60 in appearance. I don't think seeing one running through on a PRR train would be that unusual. In fact the PRR had a number of lightweight sleepers painted in Missouri Pacific "Eagle" colors for run through service. I have not seen any mention of B60s so painted. but I suppose it could have happened???? Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: [PRR] Photo of B60 > Greetings, Here is a scan from the video. > > http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:51:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives --part1_6f.33c07b8f.2b55c445_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are not going o start this scale stuff are we?? :) Cant we all just get along! (VBG) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_6f.33c07b8f.2b55c445_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are not going o start this scale stuff are we?? :)
Cant we all just get along! (VBG)

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_6f.33c07b8f.2b55c445_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:55:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions --part1_12e.2042e661.2b55c527_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a badger 200-3 deluxe set. Am I in trouble here when it comes to acrylics? See I haven't gotten my airbrush going yet, but its going to almost be a must to use acrylics. Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_12e.2042e661.2b55c527_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a badger 200-3 deluxe set. Am I in trouble here when it comes to acrylics? See I haven't gotten my airbrush going yet, but its going to almost be a must to use acrylics.


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_12e.2042e661.2b55c527_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Trainphone era Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:02:05 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2BBD5.85180FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I have looked through all the previous listings from the list for = trainphone usage but do not think I have found the definative listing of = when the trainphone antenna frirst came into use, anyone know this one? = Thanks. Also just received the Walther's quarterly sale catalogue and = they had the HO R50B in there, it looks pretty good but looks to have = cast on grab irons, is this the case with this car. Color looks good = though in their picture. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2BBD5.85180FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
I have looked through all the previous = listings=20 from the list for trainphone usage but do not think I have found the = definative=20 listing of when the trainphone antenna frirst came into use, anyone know = this=20 one?  Thanks.  Also just received the Walther's quarterly sale = catalogue and they had the HO R50B in there, it looks pretty good but = looks to=20 have cast on grab irons, is this the case with this car.  Color = looks good=20 though in their picture.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2BBD5.85180FD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:26:06 -0500 At least some of us don't use signatures that mess up other folk's computers! :( Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives We are not going o start this scale stuff are we?? :) Cant we all just get along! (VBG) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:24:02 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color Gents, heck, that's a MoPac car, a pretty common sight on St.Louis trains. Nice picture, too. The image I'm getting isn't terribly clear, and the underframe is quite dark, but I almost wonder if that's part of a truss rod visible on that car? Probably not, but it's remotely possible that that could even be a steel-sheathed car of very early vintage. I recall seeing a similar D&H car rolling into 30th Street back in the early 1960's. What really stumps me is seeing a photo in the first Pennsy book by Four Ways West, in which a Pennsy train is carrying an all yellow-sided baggage car. No red Milwaukee or Union Pacific stripes,or Green C&NW letterboard, but what almost appears to be MofW yellow. I haven't looked at that book for some time, but it struck me as something I can't identify. 'Course, maybe what I'm taking to be a MoPac car in the video photo could have just been dirtied in that manner? (G). Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of B60 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:30:55 -0500 Mark, That looks more like a Harriman style baggage car to me than a PRR B60b, but those were used mostly on UP. SP, and IC, and that's definitely a MP-T&P color scheme. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: [PRR] Photo of B60 > Greetings, Here is a scan from the video. > > http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:40:25 EST Subject: Re: X26 models was [PRR] Steam era modelers --part1_128.2053c81d.2b55cfb9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/2003 10:39:56 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > These are modeled in the new Westerfield "unibody" kits, making the > Westerfield the only correct model for a mid to late steam era PRR car IIRC. > Al pointed out about a dozen other discrepancies for a PRR version using the Tichy car when he sold me his kit at Milwaukee :-). Bob Zoeller --part1_128.2053c81d.2b55cfb9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/2003 10:39:56 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:


These are modeled in the new Westerfield "unibody" kits, making the
Westerfield the only correct model for a mid to late steam era PRR car IIRC.

Al pointed out about a dozen other discrepancies for a PRR version using the Tichy car when he sold me his kit at Milwaukee :-).

Bob Zoeller
--part1_128.2053c81d.2b55cfb9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:43:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color --part1_11f.1cb87233.2b55d06e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/2003 11:53:33 AM Central Standard Time, L1sDRIVER@webtv.net writes: > . The cars were > white or light grey overall with the lower portion below the windows > painted a darker grey or a light blue. There were 3or4 runbys of trains > at Rockville that had one of these cars in its makeup.----- You're not talking about the T&P (MOP) cars, are you? Bob Zoeller --part1_11f.1cb87233.2b55d06e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/2003 11:53:33 AM Central Standard Time, L1sDRIVER@webtv.net writes:


. The cars were
white or light grey overall with the lower portion below the windows
painted a darker grey or a light blue. There were 3or4 runbys of trains
at Rockville that had one of these cars in its makeup.-----
You're not talking about the T&P (MOP) cars,  are you?

Bob Zoeller --part1_11f.1cb87233.2b55d06e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:45:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR 2D-P8 truck photos or drawing Hi Gang, Well, the process of turning me into a passenger car modeler progresses. The Budd built cars purchased by the PRR in 1939 and 40 rode on 2D-P8 trucks. For example the P82R and P85R pictured on pages 41, 42 and the back cover of "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Volume 1: Coaches" have these trucks. There was nothing too unusual about these trucks, except that the brake cylinder was mounted on an extension off of the end of the truck closest to the cars center. I do not beleive these trucks are commercially available and wondered if anyone had either a PRR or Budd photo of just the truck, or even better, if you knew of a drawing of the trucks. Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:56:29 -0000 Avoid the Walther's ones like the plague, they have a carrier film that is so thick that micro-sol cannot deal with them......... Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Rockwell" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers > On 8 Jan, billd@gci-net.com wrote: > > > Don't forget that Tichey offers a USRA boxcar kit, which > > were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent > > (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used to > > make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield > > still offers theirs. > > Oddballs also has these decals, sheet #202, in multiple > scales. > > Dennis > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:46:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Another B60 scan??? Here is another photo fom the curve. Sure looks like a B60(general reference) but I think its a little different. I hope this car can be ID. I'd like to add 1 or 2 to my passenger fleet. Anyone know when the use of the MoPac cars may have been started? If thats a MoPac car. http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:10:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Sup-le Milk Cars??? Anyone know about these cars. I'm not sure I'm spelling it correctly. Video shows them on the end of a passenger train at Lewistown Jct. To poor to scan. Looks like a box car, X33 or X53. Almost as long as a passenger car. I'm curious if these cars were local movements or long distance. Were they a common sight on the Prr? This is the only one I've seen.---mark---- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:51:38 -0000 Mark, Are you sure these are PRR B60s? Could they not be MOPAC baggage cars working through? Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 color > Its definitely not a dirty car. These single cars in the train stuck > out like a sore thumb against the rest of the tuscan colored train. I > understand the early color film and developing was not as it is today > and could be misleading. To be a little more precise. The cars were > white or light grey overall with the lower portion below the windows > painted a darker grey or a light blue. There were 3or4 runbys of trains > at Rockville that had one of these cars in its makeup.-----Mark--- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:50:47 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Photo of B60 It looks like a MoPAC (MP) baggage car to me. Not a PRR class B60. Al Here is a scan from the video. http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sup-le Milk Cars??? Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 19:40:47 -0500 Mark, That is a Suplee-Jones milk refrigerator car. There were two basic types, one, used locally, picked up cans of milk at station stops and brought them to a creamery. The others, which were really tank cars inside an insulated body, carried milk from local creameries to large processing plants in big cities. These were carried by PRR mail and express trains to Philadelphia. Not sure when these stopped on the PRR, but probably in the 1950's. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Sup-le Milk Cars??? > Anyone know about these cars. I'm not sure I'm spelling it correctly. > Video shows them on the end of a passenger train at Lewistown Jct. To > poor to scan. Looks like a box car, X33 or X53. Almost as long as a > passenger car. I'm curious if these cars were local movements or long > distance. Were they a common sight on the Prr? This is the only one I've > seen.---mark---- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 19:58:10 -0500 Patrick Grace wrote: Avoid the Walthers' ones like the plague, they have a carrier film that is so thick that micro-sol cannot deal with them......... Micro-Sol can't deal with many of Walthers or older Champ sets - it's simply not strong enough because it was specifically designed for thinfilm decals. That's what Solvaset or Champ Decal Set is for! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:37:45 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives --Boundary_(ID_9l1RCHVHiRFZ4p7iQn63Qw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The majesty and sweep of the 9.2 mile single track Newtown Square branch or the 2.3 mile single track Cardington branch? :-) These can be done in HO with no problem and there is a better choice of locomotives for them. At 11:59 PM -0500 1/13/03, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >Al, > >The only way to adequately depict the majesty and sweep of the PRR >is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything >that can be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched >forty years ago and have not regretted it.! > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr >To: ALGUCKES@aol.com ; >PRR-Talk >Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:03 PM >Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives > >Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the hobby. > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >[mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of >ALGUCKES@aol.com >Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives > >I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the >Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 >or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. > >Al Guckes David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net --Boundary_(ID_9l1RCHVHiRFZ4p7iQn63Qw) Content-type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The majesty and sweep of the 9.2 mile single track Newtown Square branch or the 2.3 mile single track Cardington branch? :-) These can be done in HO with no problem and there is a better choice of locomotives for them. At 11:59 PM -0500 1/13/03, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Al, The only way to adequately depict the majesty and sweep of the PRR is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything that can be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched forty years ago and have not regretted it.! Gregg Mahlkov right,left----- Original Message ----- From: <Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: <ALGUCKES@aol.com ; <PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Arial0000,0000,FFFFStick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the hobby. right,right,left,left-----Original Message----- From: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of <ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives ArialI am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes Arial David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net --Boundary_(ID_9l1RCHVHiRFZ4p7iQn63Qw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:10:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of B60 In a message dated 1/14/03 1:50:45 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << I agree and was also thinking MoPac "Eagle", but I wasn't aware of baggage cars used in this service. The MoPac cars ran on the Penn Texas. >> But the T&P (MOP) express cars are common in video shots (and a few stills) on the Duquesne and other trains. As I might have mentioned on this or another list, there are several shots of them in Cincinatti as well. A two-door arch roof baggage doesn't automatically make a B60b. As. George M or someone else pointed out, a great tipoff is the height (or rather depth---the low floor) of the B60 compared to just about anyone else's passenger car. I believe (but am not sure) that these cars came in on the Fast Mail from St. Louis. Why they got shifted to the Duquesne I don't know. BTW, the same cars were seen in Pennsy shots of the Chicago Union Station area but I think they came in on the GM&O. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:46:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2BC1E.B6711420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glad someone has the space for a 558 foot long main line! That's what it = would take in HO! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David J. Wartell=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives The majesty and sweep of the 9.2 mile single track Newtown Square = branch or the 2.3 mile single track Cardington branch? :-) These can be = done in HO with no problem and there is a better choice of locomotives = for them. At 11:59 PM -0500 1/13/03, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Al, The only way to adequately depict the majesty and sweep of the PRR = is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything that = can be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched forty years = ago and have not regretted it.! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: ALGUCKES@aol.com ; = PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the = hobby. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com = [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the = Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or = BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2BC1E.B6711420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Glad someone has the space for a 558 foot long main = line!=20 That's what it would take in HO!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David J.=20 Wartell
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 = 9:37=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR = steam=20 locomotives

The majesty and sweep of the 9.2 mile single track = Newtown=20 Square branch or the 2.3 mile single track Cardington branch? :-) = These can be=20 done in HO with no problem and there is a better choice of locomotives = for=20 them.



At 11:59 PM -0500 1/13/03, Gregg Mahlkov = wrote:
Al,

The only way to adequately depict the majesty = and=20 sweep of the PRR is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized = stuff.=20 Anything that can be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I = switched=20 forty years ago and have not regretted it.!

Gregg = Mahlkov

----- Original Message=20 -----
From: <mailto:gregvl@comcast.net>Gregory = Vlassopoulos=20 Jr
To: <mailto:ALGUCKES@aol.com>ALGUCKES@aol.com ;=20 <mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com>PRR-Talk
Sent: Monday, = January 13,=20 2003 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam=20 locomotives

Stick=20 to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the = hobby.

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 <mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com>PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of=20 <mailto:ALGUCKES@aol.com>ALGUCKES@aol.com
Sent: = Monday,=20 January 13, 2003 9:10 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: = [PRR] N=20 scale PRR steam locomotives

I am = returning=20 to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington = branch=20 outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a = locomotive or=20 N6B caboose available in N scale.

Al = Guckes

David=20 J. Wartell
djwartel@comcast.net ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2BC1E.B6711420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] Newtown Sq Branch was " N scale PRR steam locomotives" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:58:16 -0900 Was the Newtown Square branch ever electrified? Triumph III(IV?) on Philly Terminal, shows this on the map, but didn't talk much about it. Was there ever regular commuter service into Philly? thanks. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "David J. Wartell" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Glad someone has the space for a 558 foot long main line! That's what it would take in HO! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: David J. Wartell To: PRR-Talk Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives The majesty and sweep of the 9.2 mile single track Newtown Square branch or the 2.3 mile single track Cardington branch? :-) These can be done in HO with no problem and there is a better choice of locomotives for them. At 11:59 PM -0500 1/13/03, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Al, The only way to adequately depict the majesty and sweep of the PRR is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything that can be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched forty years ago and have not regretted it.! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: ALGUCKES@aol.com ; PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the hobby. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SM" Subject: [PRR] B-60 at cove and NC double headers Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:15:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C2BC22.E652EF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all.... Is it possible that what we're looking at is a=20 former PRR car,perhaps one of the early B-60 ,s (the ones with the different panel confiqurations) that disappeared early on? In the second shot could that be a former PRR B-70? Perhaps these older cars were sold to Mopac. Also...I know that passenger trains on the Baltimore- Harrisburg section of the old Northern Central were double headed sometimes up until dieselization.(Including K -4s - E-6sand K-4,5 - H-9s and K-4s-L-1s doubles) But what about run through freight? I know that most run thru freights were non existant in later years, but what about extra trains or reroutings? Would they have rated two L-1s engines? Due to curve and bridge restrictions the two K-5s engines were heaviest ever allowed there. No I or M classes ever ran there that i know of. Til Later Hank Mummert ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C2BC22.E652EF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all....
 
Is it possible that what we're looking = at is a=20
former PRR car,perhaps one of the = early B-60=20 ,s
(the ones with the different panel=20 confiqurations)
that disappeared early on?
 
In the second shot could that be a = former=20 PRR
B-70? Perhaps these older cars were = sold=20 to
Mopac.
 
Also...I know that passenger trains on = the=20 Baltimore-
Harrisburg section of the old Northern=20 Central
were double headed sometimes up = until
dieselization.(Including = K -4s - E-6sand=20 K-4,5 -
H-9s and K-4s-L-1s doubles) But = what about run=20 through
freight? I know that most run thru=20 freights
were non existant in later years, but=20 what
about extra trains or = reroutings?
Would they have rated two L-1s=20 engines?
Due to curve and bridge restrictions = the=20 two
K-5s engines were heaviest ever=20 allowed
there. No I or M classes ever ran there = that
i know of.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;      =20 Til Later
          &nbs= p;            = ;      =20 Hank Mummert
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C2BC22.E652EF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:10:57 -0800 Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Hi Al, >I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the >Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or >BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. The H classes were made in brass some years back. I see them for sale from time to time, but they are not cheap. The N6b has been done in brass. both center cab and offset cab versions. I've bought two, used, each for under $80. Gloor Craft makes (made?) a kit for the center-cab N6b. Availability is spotty, so if you find one and you want one you should grab it immediately. It is a craftsman wood kit with metal detail castings. I've not built mine up yet, altho I've seen them built up and they look nice, but of course, they require a bit of modeling skill to assemble. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:10:57 -0800 Subject: [PRR] early type solid pilot Hi Gary, > Another option to the drop coupler is the fabricated early type >solid pilot. You may be able to use the MiniTrix pilot and add sheet >styrene similar to what the PRR did by taking plate metal to a standard >pilot.. There is a good photo in Many Faces of the K4. It looks easier >to do than a scratch built drop pilot. Just a thought...Gary I always thought this early solid pilot was quite attractive. I didn't remember the coverage in "Many Faces", but I believe there was at least one photo in Stauffer's PP3 someplace. I believe these pilots were applied in 1927 or 1928, so they are entirely applicable to my chosen era of 1929. Altho I've not persued it yet, since many other projects have priority. But thanks for mentioning the idea. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:22:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: early type solid pilot Claus, Page 124-125 in Many Faces of K4 shows K4 5492 with the first drop coupler Pilot of 1928. This would be good for your era but not the others who are modeling the post war versions. For either version I would think putty can be applied and carved into the proper shape. Its only N scale so not much is needed to get the look of a solid pilot.....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:33:59 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone era Jeremy & Soni Helms wrote: > Hello all, > I have looked through all the previous listings from the > list for trainphone usage but do not think I have found > the definative listing of when the trainphone antenna first > came into use, anyone know this one? 1937-39. I could check if more exactitude needed. Main intallations were post WWII. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:05:47 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] South Wind again (he ranted) In a message dated 1/12/03 10:20:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:06:28 -0800 (PST) > From: ted andrews > Subject: Re: South Wind wanders to East Coast? > > --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > The South Wind traversed one of the many alternative > > routes offered over the > > years by Chicago-Florida trains. In the Wind's > > case, the route was > > Chicago-Logansport-Frankfort > > IN-Indianapolis-Louisville (L&N)-Nashville and > > on through Atlanta (ACL) to Jacksonville and then > > Miami. > > > Rick and the List: > > On Page 171 in "Pennsy Power," Al Staufer refers to > the South Wind reaching Cincinnatti via Fort Wayne. > This would imply a Chicago-Ft.Wayne-Cincy-Miami route. > > Did the South Wind ever go this route? If not, were > there other PRR passenger boung for Miami that did? > > This topis has always been unclear to me. > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > Ted, Before next Christmas, I fully expect somebody to tell me that the South Wind went to Florida via the North Pole. This is nuts... I consider R. Lyle Key Jr's Midwest Florida Sunliners to be the definitive book on this subject. If Lyle has any errors in this book, I haven't found them. This book covers the South Wind, its competitors in this market, and predecessors back quite a ways. Besides trains, Key deals with through Pullman routings. The PRR routings in this book appear to be: 1. Chicago via Louisville: train Florida Arrow (1935-1942 and 1946-1949), train South Wind (1940-1971), train Jacksonian (1941-1943). 2. Chicago via Cincinnati: train Chicago and Florida Limited (1900-1904?), train Southland (?-1959), plus through cars 3. Grand Rapids - Fort Wayne via Cincinnati: through cars 4. Detroit - Fort Wayne - via Cincinnati: through cars Some South Wind notes: 1. The South Wind, the Dixie Flagler (C&EI via Evansville IN), and the City of Miami (IC) were set up in 1940 so that one of them left Chicago every 3 days. This probably meant there were 2 trainsets of each one of them -- a sample schedule from Pullman gives each trainset only a two hour turnaround time in Miami. 2. South Wind's two sets were bought by PRR and by ACL. 3. 1940 consist was Budd coaches 4. K4s 1120 and 2665 (streamlined) were original South Wind locomotives. 5. Streamlined K4s photographed in Louisville 4-6-1942. 6. T1 6111 photographed here 2-15-1948. 7. BP20 5775 photographed here 4-22-1949 8. 1949 acquired 3 sleepers (George Wythe, Poplar Summit, and Grand Canyon, probably added because the Southland was cancelled that year) 9. NP sleeper dome leased winter 1959-1960 and again 1964-1965 and 3 following years. These remained two tone green, unlike the ones leased to IC for the City of Miami. The entire history of the South Wind is built around Chicago-PRR-Louisville-L& N-Montgomery-ACL-Jacksonville-FEC-Miami (in an earlier post I mistakenly wrote Atlanta instead of Montgomery, and that was wrong). Exception -- in 1963 the train was rerouted on its south end around FEC after a dynamiting. But PRR Chicago to Louisville necessarily implies Chicago-Logansport-Frankfort-Indianapolis-Louisville, as there aren't any other practical ways to get here from Chicago on Pennsy rails. Bottom line: 1. I don't really know much about this -- I just live here in Louisville, and know a few of the people who photographed the South Wind. 2. Questions on the South Wind sure do come up a lot -- on all the possible Pennsy lists, and on others. 3. I realize that not everybody has Key's book, but that's where the answers are. 4. It'd be great if all concerned could look it up in Key's book. Copyright 1979 - wonder if it's still in print? 5. However, the South Wind is so far afield from the core of Pennsy knowledge that I doubt any of us will ever get the story right in a Pennsy publication (that's a challenge, folks). 6. If I had nothing on my plate, I'd try to put together an article for the Keystone. But I'm working hammer and tongs on an article on PRR in Cincinnati. Right now the South Wind is not even on my list of things to attempt. Good luck to all... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:05:47 EST Subject: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted) --part1_199.13f056c8.2b56462b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/03 10:20:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:06:28 -0800 (PST) > From: ted andrews > Subject: Re: South Wind wanders to East Coast? > > --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > The South Wind traversed one of the many alternative > > routes offered over the > > years by Chicago-Florida trains. In the Wind's > > case, the route was > > Chicago-Logansport-Frankfort > > IN-Indianapolis-Louisville (L&N)-Nashville and > > on through Atlanta (ACL) to Jacksonville and then > > Miami. > > > Rick and the List: > > On Page 171 in "Pennsy Power," Al Staufer refers to > the South Wind reaching Cincinnatti via Fort Wayne. > This would imply a Chicago-Ft.Wayne-Cincy-Miami route. > > Did the South Wind ever go this route? If not, were > there other PRR passenger boung for Miami that did? > > This topis has always been unclear to me. > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > Ted, Before next Christmas, I fully expect somebody to tell me that the South Wind went to Florida via the North Pole. This is nuts... I consider R. Lyle Key Jr's Midwest Florida Sunliners to be the definitive book on this subject. If Lyle has any errors in this book, I haven't found them. This book covers the South Wind, its competitors in this market, and predecessors back quite a ways. Besides trains, Key deals with through Pullman routings. The PRR routings in this book appear to be: 1. Chicago via Louisville: train Florida Arrow (1935-1942 and 1946-1949), train South Wind (1940-1971), train Jacksonian (1941-1943). 2. Chicago via Cincinnati: train Chicago and Florida Limited (1900-1904?), train Southland (?-1959), plus through cars 3. Grand Rapids - Fort Wayne via Cincinnati: through cars 4. Detroit - Fort Wayne - via Cincinnati: through cars Some South Wind notes: 1. The South Wind, the Dixie Flagler (C&EI via Evansville IN), and the City of Miami (IC) were set up in 1940 so that one of them left Chicago every 3 days. This probably meant there were 2 trainsets of each one of them -- a sample schedule from Pullman gives each trainset only a two hour turnaround time in Miami. 2. South Wind's two sets were bought by PRR and by ACL. 3. 1940 consist was Budd coaches 4. K4s 1120 and 2665 (streamlined) were original South Wind locomotives. 5. Streamlined K4s photographed in Louisville 4-6-1942. 6. T1 6111 photographed here 2-15-1948. 7. BP20 5775 photographed here 4-22-1949 8. 1949 acquired 3 sleepers (George Wythe, Poplar Summit, and Grand Canyon, probably added because the Southland was cancelled that year) 9. NP sleeper dome leased winter 1959-1960 and again 1964-1965 and 3 following years. These remained two tone green, unlike the ones leased to IC for the City of Miami. The entire history of the South Wind is built around Chicago-PRR-Louisville-L& N-Montgomery-ACL-Jacksonville-FEC-Miami (in an earlier post I mistakenly wrote Atlanta instead of Montgomery, and that was wrong). Exception -- in 1963 the train was rerouted on its south end around FEC after a dynamiting. But PRR Chicago to Louisville necessarily implies Chicago-Logansport-Frankfort-Indianapolis-Louisville, as there aren't any other practical ways to get here from Chicago on Pennsy rails. Bottom line: 1. I don't really know much about this -- I just live here in Louisville, and know a few of the people who photographed the South Wind. 2. Questions on the South Wind sure do come up a lot -- on all the possible Pennsy lists, and on others. 3. I realize that not everybody has Key's book, but that's where the answers are. 4. It'd be great if all concerned could look it up in Key's book. Copyright 1979 - wonder if it's still in print? 5. However, the South Wind is so far afield from the core of Pennsy knowledge that I doubt any of us will ever get the story right in a Pennsy publication (that's a challenge, folks). 6. If I had nothing on my plate, I'd try to put together an article for the Keystone. But I'm working hammer and tongs on an article on PRR in Cincinnati. Right now the South Wind is not even on my list of things to attempt. Good luck to all... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_199.13f056c8.2b56462b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/03 10:20:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 6
   Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:06:28 -0800 (PST)
   From: ted andrews <andrewsted@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: South Wind wanders to East Coast?

--- RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

> The South Wind traversed one of the many alternative
> routes offered over the
> years by Chicago-Florida trains.  In the Wind's
> case, the route was
> Chicago-Logansport-Frankfort
> IN-Indianapolis-Louisville (L&N)-Nashville and
> on through Atlanta (ACL) to Jacksonville and then
> Miami.


Rick and the List:

On Page 171 in "Pennsy Power," Al Staufer refers to
the South Wind reaching Cincinnatti via Fort Wayne.
This would imply a Chicago-Ft.Wayne-Cincy-Miami route.

Did the South Wind ever go this route? If not, were
there other PRR passenger boung for Miami that did?

This topis has always been unclear to me.


Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana

Ted,

Before next Christmas, I fully expect somebody to tell me that the South Wind went to Florida via the North Pole.  This is nuts...

I consider R. Lyle Key Jr's Midwest Florida Sunliners to be the definitive book on this subject.  If Lyle has any errors in this book, I haven't found them. 

This book covers the South Wind, its competitors in this market, and predecessors back quite a ways.  Besides trains, Key deals with through Pullman routings.  The PRR routings in this book appear to be:
1. Chicago via Louisville: train Florida Arrow (1935-1942 and 1946-1949), train South Wind (1940-1971), train Jacksonian (1941-1943).
2. Chicago via Cincinnati: train Chicago and Florida Limited (1900-1904?), train Southland (?-1959), plus through cars
3. Grand Rapids - Fort Wayne via Cincinnati: through cars
4. Detroit - Fort Wayne - via Cincinnati: through cars

Some South Wind notes:
1. The South Wind, the Dixie Flagler (C&EI via Evansville IN), and the City of Miami (IC) were set up in 1940 so that one of them left Chicago every 3 days.  This probably meant there were 2 trainsets of each one of them -- a sample schedule from Pullman gives each trainset only a two hour turnaround time in Miami.
2. South Wind's two sets were bought by PRR and by ACL.
3. 1940 consist was Budd coaches
4.  K4s 1120 and 2665 (streamlined) were original South Wind locomotives.
5.  Streamlined K4s photographed in Louisville 4-6-1942.
6.  T1 6111 photographed here 2-15-1948.
7.  BP20 5775 photographed here 4-22-1949
8. 1949 acquired 3 sleepers (George Wythe, Poplar Summit, and Grand Canyon, probably added because the Southland was cancelled that year)
9.  NP sleeper dome leased winter 1959-1960 and again 1964-1965 and 3 following years.  These remained two tone green, unlike the ones leased to IC for the City of Miami.

The entire history of the South Wind is built around Chicago-PRR-Louisville-L&N-Montgomery-ACL-Jacksonville-FEC-Miami (in an earlier post I mistakenly wrote Atlanta instead of Montgomery, and that was wrong).  Exception -- in 1963 the train was rerouted on its south end around FEC after a dynamiting.  But PRR Chicago to Louisville necessarily  implies Chicago-Logansport-Frankfort-Indianapolis-Louisville, as there aren't any other practical ways to get here from Chicago on Pennsy rails.

Bottom line:
1.  I don't really know much about this -- I just live here in Louisville, and know a few of the people who photographed the South Wind.
2.  Questions on the South Wind sure do come up a lot -- on all the possible Pennsy lists, and on others.
3.  I realize that not everybody has Key's book, but that's where the answers are.
4.  It'd be great if all concerned could look it up in Key's book.  Copyright 1979 - wonder if it's still in print?
5.  However, the South Wind is so far afield from the core of Pennsy knowledge that I doubt any of us will ever get the story right in a Pennsy publication (that's a challenge, folks).
6.  If I had nothing on my plate, I'd try to put together an article for the Keystone.  But I'm working hammer and tongs on an article on PRR in Cincinnati.  Right now the South Wind is not even on my list of things to attempt.

Good luck to all...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_199.13f056c8.2b56462b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:17:46 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Newtown Sq Branch was " N scale PRR steam locomotives" The Newtown Square branch was never electrified. The tracks did run between catenary type poles for about a third of the route. At Yeadon, where the NS and Cardinton branches branched off of the West Chester Line(still in use by SEPTA), the line I guess was thought to be electrified at some time but never materialized. Philly Chpt put out 2 awesome issues pertaining to the Cardington Branch and the Newtown Square Branch. By the way, the thru girder bridge that carried the line over Baltimore Pike for the approach into Pembroke Yard is being dismantled as we speak. Another PRR branchline structure soon gone. The torches have already been taking out the decking. By this Friday, the bridge will most likely be gone. The line was last used in 1981. I am surprized the bridge lasted as long as it has. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Alex Charyna Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:58 PM To: PRR-Talk Posting Subject: [PRR] Newtown Sq Branch was " N scale PRR steam locomotives" Was the Newtown Square branch ever electrified? Triumph III(IV?) on Philly Terminal, shows this on the map, but didn't talk much about it. Was there ever regular commuter service into Philly? thanks. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "David J. Wartell" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Glad someone has the space for a 558 foot long main line! That's what it would take in HO! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: David J. Wartell To: PRR-Talk Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives The majesty and sweep of the 9.2 mile single track Newtown Square branch or the 2.3 mile single track Cardington branch? :-) These can be done in HO with no problem and there is a better choice of locomotives for them. At 11:59 PM -0500 1/13/03, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Al, The only way to adequately depict the majesty and sweep of the PRR is in N scale, forget about the Horribly Oversized stuff. Anything that can be done in HO can be done better in N scale. I switched forty years ago and have not regretted it.! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: ALGUCKES@aol.com ; PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives Stick to HO, your selection is much larger in all aspects of the hobby. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 9:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR steam locomotives I am returning to N scale to possibly model the Newton Square or the Cardington branch outside of Philadelphia. Has there ever been an H9 or BS10a locomotive or N6B caboose available in N scale. Al Guckes David J. Wartell djwartel@comcast.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:19:42 -0600 Hi Nick--You can't beat a Paasche H and Scalecoat for brass. But for acrylics I am learning that you can't beat the Badger 200-20. I am following Bruce again, but he is right on for decaling over Polyscale. However, Modelflex has some gloss in it, and I have found that a gloss coat isn't necessary. And of course my most popular color is Light Tuscan Oxide Red. They should have just called it Freight Car Color instead of that nonsense. Great color to start weathering on. Somebody not far from you must have a 200-20; get a bottle of paint, screw it on and try it--I think you will be impressed. Soap and water cleanup. Paint this afternoon, decal tonight, weather in the morning. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:25:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Newtown Sq Branch --part1_a.2b5fafc3.2b564ace_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, the Newtown Square Branch was never electrified. Passanger service ran from 1898 to 1908 with as many as 13 trains each day in and out of Newtown Square to Broad Street Station in Philadelphia. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. Newtown Square Historical Preservation Society. --part1_a.2b5fafc3.2b564ace_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, the Newtown Square Branch was never electrified.
Passanger service ran from 1898 to 1908 with as many as 13 trains each day in and out of Newtown Square to Broad Street Station in Philadelphia.



Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
Newtown Square Historical Preservation Society. --part1_a.2b5fafc3.2b564ace_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:57:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] B-60 at cove and NC double headers In a message dated 1/14/03 10:18:28 PM Central Standard Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: << Is it possible that what we're looking at is a former PRR car,perhaps one of the early B-60 ,s (the ones with the different panel confiqurations) that disappeared early on? In the second shot could that be a former PRR B-70? Perhaps these older cars were sold to Mopac. >> Finally got the URL to come up. As best I can tell, both cars are the T&P (MOP colors) express cars ubiquitous in PRR trains of the era. The arch roof car is clearly not a B60b and I think you would find if you could put a measure to it that the clerestory roof car differs from a B70 particularly in the door size and spacing. I use a Rivarossi MOP HW baggage car as a standin in my mail and express string until I can research with the MOP historical society guys. I also may use it in my GM&O short train behind my new DL109 at the club, a rather common car on that railroad as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:57:25 EST Subject: Re:[PRR] Newtown Square Branch Correction --part1_1ab.f5f8036.2b565245_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information regarding Passanger Service should have read 1895 to 1908 not 1898 to 1908. Passanger service ran from 1895 to 1908 with as many as 13 trains each day in and out of Newtown Square to Broad Street Station in Philadelphia. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. Newtown Square Historical Preservation Society. --part1_1ab.f5f8036.2b565245_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Information regarding Passanger Service should have read
1895 to 1908 not 1898 to 1908.

Passanger service ran from 1895 to 1908 with as many as 13 trains each day in and out of Newtown Square to Broad Street Station in Philadelphia.



Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
Newtown Square Historical Preservation Society.
 --part1_1ab.f5f8036.2b565245_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:45:59 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR steam locomotives Can anyone tell me whether the three N-scale PRR steam locomotives previously produced by Mini Trix (B6sb, K4, and I1) were decent runners or were they junk like so many other N-scale steam locomotives? I'm considering getting into N-scale but am hesitant because of my love for Pennsy steam and the absence of decent running (and looking) steam locomotives. Can these locomotives still be found? I guess I need advice from an N-scale PRR modeler. Thank you, Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:30:24 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Builders Photos for sale Hi All, In compliance with list rules, I offer the following photos for sale. Here is a set of 2) 8 x 10 EMD Builders photos that I am offering at $24.00 shipped. I can print them up to 13 x 19 on special request. They are printed on an Epson 2200 printer. The results are stunning! They were scanned from original EMD 4 x 5 transparencies. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_6100.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_6106.jpg I will be offering more soon. Here is a set of H30a Builders photos I have on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=2153852670&r d=1 Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:00:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR steam locomotives Tom, I've always found the Trix locos to run ok out of the box. Yes you still can buy them. Make sure you test run them before you buy. I've run across a few with bent axels which made them wabb-Lin -me-mes. You may want to check the PRR-N talk list archive. There is some good info and tips on Trix steam locos from earlier posts. ------------Mark--------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:27:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] UP Sleepers on the PRR Greetings again. Its my understanding now that the PRR also used some Union Pacific sleepers. There is reference to these cars in my video. To far away to see the type car and paint scheme. Anyone know what type of cars these were? Were these painted yellow and silver?--Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:35:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Sleepers on the PRR From: Jerry Britton On 1/15/03 8:27 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings again. Its my understanding now that the PRR also used some > Union Pacific sleepers. There is reference to these cars in my video. To > far away to see the type car and paint scheme. Anyone know what type of > cars these were? Were these painted yellow and silver?--Mark- > Off the top of my head, I believe they were 10-6's. They are covered in detail in the "Painting and Lettering" book by Blardone and Tilp (published by PRRT&HS). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Kolbe" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:17:41 -400 Subject: [PRR] Item for Sale Hi all, Its the 15th so I thought I too would offer an item for sale. I have a Stewart VO1000, new in box, unnumbered, in Pennsy livery (of course) for sale. Price is $45, including shipping within the USA. Please contact me offlist. Rick Kolbe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:24:47 EST Subject: [PRR] For Sale or Trade --part1_d3.171738ac.2b56c92f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 16 diesel loco units that are all powered for sale or swap.They are all lettered for the Pennsylvania R.R..Manufactures include LifeLike,E-R Models,ConCor & several custom units.I also have more than 80 Kadee/Micro-Trains cars to let go of. Most of these cars are out of production.Somewhere near half of these cars are priced at or below the issue price.Please e-mail me at EMACGIS@aol.com for any list you would be interested in.WANTED--Quality vehicle kits of the era of 1958 or before.Key Imports brass 2-10-0 with short haul tender.Hallmark brass diesel switchers.Brass Pennsy cabeese with antennae by any manufacture.Have cash for the items I'm looking for.What have you??? THANKS-- E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_d3.171738ac.2b56c92f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 16 diesel loco units that are all powered for sale or swap.They are all lettered
for the Pennsylvania R.R..Manufactures include LifeLike,E-R Models,ConCor &
several custom units.I also have more than 80 Kadee/Micro-Trains cars to let go of.
Most of these cars are out of production.Somewhere near half of these cars are priced at or below the issue price.Please e-mail me at EMACGIS@aol.com for any
list you would be interested in.WANTED--Quality vehicle kits of the era of 1958 or
before.Key Imports brass 2-10-0 with short haul tender.Hallmark brass diesel
switchers.Brass Pennsy cabeese with antennae by any manufacture.Have cash
for the items I'm looking for.What have you??? THANKS-- E.J.
EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_d3.171738ac.2b56c92f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR steam locomotives Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:48:17 -0500 Tom (and list), The MiniTrix N scale locomotives all run well "out of the box". but fast by today's standards. The worst cosmetically is the 2-10-0 (the stack doesn't line up with the cylibnders), but it is the best operating. Most folks in N think it was the smoothest running steam locomotive prior to the Kato 2-8-2. BTW, GHQ sold a kit to convert this to an L1s. The 0-6-0 picks up only on the drivers. If you add electrical pickup to the tender, it is a great switch engine. It is the only one specifically designed as a PRR locomotive. The 4-6-2 and 2-10-0 use mechanisms originally designed for German locomotives so there are compromises, including unacceptable ones on the I1, but they can be rectified by moving the boiler back - not a minor job, but one done by many folks. These engines show up on eBay all the time, but they aren't cheap by the time bidding ends. The digital camera I ordered is supposed to be here tomorrow and I plan to put some shots on my website of PRR locomotives in N scale. I have an A5, B6sb, H3b, H10s, K4s, and L1s, with an I1s and another L1s under construction. None are brass. I've also got another MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 on its way to me to make another H3 - this is one sweet running model - can you say Patek Phillippe? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 6:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR steam locomotives > > Can anyone tell me whether the three N-scale PRR steam locomotives > previously produced by Mini Trix > (B6sb, K4, and I1) were decent runners or were they junk like so many other > N-scale steam locomotives? > I'm considering getting into N-scale but am hesitant because of my love for > Pennsy steam and the absence > of decent running (and looking) steam locomotives. Can these locomotives > still be found? I guess I need > advice from an N-scale PRR modeler. > > Thank you, > Tom Rimer > twrimer@uss.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Another B60 scan??? Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:47:47 -0500 Definately NOT a B60. Definately MoPac. Definately need a MoPac guy to I.D. it. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net [mailto:L1sDRIVER@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 4:46 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Another B60 scan??? Here is another photo fom the curve. Sure looks like a B60(general reference) but I think its a little different. I hope this car can be ID. I'd like to add 1 or 2 to my passenger fleet. Anyone know when the use of the MoPac cars may have been started? If thats a MoPac car. http://community-2.webtv.net/L1sDRIVER/B60atCOVE/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:50:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR steam locomotives From: Jerry Britton On 1/15/03 9:48 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > The MiniTrix N scale locomotives all run well "out of the box". but fast by > today's standards. The worst cosmetically is the 2-10-0 (the stack doesn't > line up with the cylibnders), but it is the best operating. Most folks in N > think it was the smoothest running steam locomotive prior to the Kato 2-8-2. > BTW, GHQ sold a kit to convert this to an L1s. > > The 0-6-0 picks up only on the drivers. If you add electrical pickup to the > tender, it is a great switch engine. It is the only one specifically > designed as a PRR locomotive. The 4-6-2 and 2-10-0 use mechanisms originally > designed for German locomotives so there are compromises, including > unacceptable ones on the I1, but they can be rectified by moving the boiler > back - not a minor job, but one done by many folks. > > These engines show up on eBay all the time, but they aren't cheap by the > time bidding ends. Should be noted that these locos will not run well on Atlas Code 55 track as their flanges are oversized. > > The digital camera I ordered is supposed to be here tomorrow and I plan to > put some shots on my website of PRR locomotives in N scale. Quick tips... 1) Set to highest F-stop possible in increase depth of field (focus). 2) If you camera offers it, you may want to experiment with changing the ASA to 400 or so, to reduce exposure time. 3) Shoot with a higher resolution and then use PhotoShop to downsample (if needed) for web distribution. PhotoShop does "smarter" downsampling than does a camera or a scanner. I don't profess to be a digital camera expert myself, but my model shots are improving consistently as I learn the "ins and outs" of the settings. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:06:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - E-mail Filtering From: Jerry Britton To all subscribers: Desktop Solutions, host of these mailing lists, has installed a new mail filter on its mail server. It "should" not bounce e-mail destined for the lists, but it is always a possibility. Modifications to the filter will be an on-going process. If you receive mail bounced back to you with a SPAM notification, it is likely the result of a filter rule that needs tweaked. Since you won't be able to e-mail me to report the problem, please call Desktop Solutions at 717-938-4270. The date, time, and your e-mail address are critical pieces of information needed to locate your issue in the log files. Just for example's sake: I recently went on vacation for 11 days. When I returned, I had over 2,300 e-mails. Over 2,000 of them were SPAM!!! Didn't take me long to plop down the $$$ for a good filter! Anyway, shouldn't be an issue for list traffic. It's all based on keywords in the headers, subject, and body. Now back to your regular programming... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Oriental Limited M-1 for sale Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:28:04 +0000 I have an extra Oriental Limited M-1 for sale. It is from the 1985 run and was built by Samhongsa in Korea. It is factory painted and numbered. Basically new in box and only test run. If interested, please contact me off list. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:52:03 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] UP Big Boy I have a Bowser UP BigBoy for sale. I heard they used PRR and Horseshoe Curve to transfer the locomotive from ALCo to Wyoming. Contact me offlist. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:54:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Note on "For Sale" Posts From: Jerry Britton Folks, when posting items "for sale", please be sure to specify the scale (if it is a model railroad item). There were two items posted today with no indication of scale. The "M1" I presume is HO scale. The MicroTrains cars would be N scale. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Kolbe" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:09:31 -400 Subject: [PRR] Item for sale Hi, Sorry for the omission of the scale -- the VO1000 that I previously listed for sale is in HO scale. Rick Kolbe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Oriental Limited M-1 for sale (HO Scale) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:00:13 +0000 I have an extra Oriental Limited M-1 for sale. It is from the 1985 run and was built by Samhongsa in Korea. It is factory painted and numbered. Basically new in box and only test run. If interested, please contact me off list. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:12 -0500 A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. Any idea how far south the T1's ran? Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:03:25 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] T1s in Louisville andrew harmantas wrote: > > A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. > Any idea how far south the T1's ran? Greetings to Andy and the List: Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines of that weight to run through. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:14:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s in Louisville From: Jerry Britton On 1/15/03 1:03 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > andrew harmantas wrote: >> >> A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. >> Any idea how far south the T1's ran? > > Greetings to Andy and the List: > > Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was > the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, > before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR > communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but > they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines > of that weight to run through. > About 18 months ago there was a beautiful HO layout in Model Railroader. It was the FEC "Key West Extension" of Cal Winters. In fact, there is a Great Model Railroads video of the layout. It starts in Miami. With Dan's post, I had images of a beautiful Pennsy T1 rolling onto his layout. Wow, what a sight that would have been! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dan Cupper Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:03:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] T1s in Louisville andrew harmantas wrote: > > A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. > Any idea how far south the T1's ran? Greetings to Andy and the List: Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines of that weight to run through. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: Re: Digital photography was:[PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR steam Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:03 -0600 Jerry and all, Thanks for the digital pics tips. I have recently acquired a very good digital camera myself. I have found when taking pictures of models it is good to have the camera set at (for my Canon G2 anyway) ISO 50 still. I set it on a sturdy tripod with a longer exposure time. I also use either the time delay feature to take the picture of the camera IR remote. I would share pictures but so far I only have some of some Rio Grande Southern Sn3 stuff I own. I found that with this camera (as I know it also does with other digital cameras) as you go to a higher ISO setting you get a grainier finish on the photo. Also other items of note are to go with the largest super fine file format capable on the camera. Lighting is also key and I have picked up a good bit of information on this from other model photographers like Lane Stewart and his more recent columns in Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette. Thanks for indulging me. Jeremy Helms ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:51:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Digital photography was:[PRR] Mini Trix N-scale PRR From: Jerry Britton On 1/15/03 1:45 PM, Jeremy & Soni Helms (jeremy-sonihelms@cox.net) wrote: > I have found when taking pictures of models it is good to have the camera > set at (for my Canon G2 anyway) ISO 50 still. I set it on a sturdy tripod > with a longer exposure time. I also use either the time delay feature to > take the picture of the camera IR remote. I would share pictures but so far > I only have some of some Rio Grande Southern Sn3 stuff I own. I found that > with this camera (as I know it also does with other digital cameras) as you > go to a higher ISO setting you get a grainier finish on the photo. True. That's how "real" film works. That plays into why I said to shoot with a higher resolution to start with. It depends on the features of the camera and what extras (tripod, extra lights) you have to work with. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:08:46 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] >Jeremy, The 1937-39 efforts were experimental only. Railway Age magazine Feb 1944 has explanation of the first real tests. A Nov 1944 issue describes extensive implementation over the year of 1944. I think it was deployed as fully as it ever was over the next few years. Tom Hayden >Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone era >From: "davep" >Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:33:59 -0500 > >Jeremy & Soni Helms wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I have looked through all the previous listings from the > > > list for trainphone usage but do not think I have found > > > the definative listing of when the trainphone antenna first > > > came into use, anyone know this one? > > 1937-39. I could check if more exactitude needed. > Main intallations were post WWII. > >-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:55:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Big Boy Greg sez: >I have a Bowser UP BigBoy for sale. I heard they used PRR and Horseshoe >Curve to transfer the locomotive from ALCo to Wyoming. Contact me offlist. If it was ALCo built, it probably went NYC west and never saw PRR rails. If it was Baldwin built it was routed Eddystone to Perryville to Columbia (where it was cut out of the train and inspected by Baldwin) to Enola, and on West via Horseshoe curve...I can model Santa Fe 2-10-4s in transit as well as a couple of VO-1000s, circa June 1944. Happy Rails Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:10:06 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] UP Big Boy Who makes an accurate model of the Santa Fe locomotives that the PRR leased? Rivarossi? Bowser? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:56 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Big Boy Greg sez: >I have a Bowser UP BigBoy for sale. I heard they used PRR and Horseshoe >Curve to transfer the locomotive from ALCo to Wyoming. Contact me offlist. If it was ALCo built, it probably went NYC west and never saw PRR rails. If it was Baldwin built it was routed Eddystone to Perryville to Columbia (where it was cut out of the train and inspected by Baldwin) to Enola, and on West via Horseshoe curve...I can model Santa Fe 2-10-4s in transit as well as a couple of VO-1000s, circa June 1944. Happy Rails Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Big Boy Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:25:21 -0500 Brian & list, The 25 Big Boys were all built by American Locomotive Co. in Schnectady. It was an ALCo employee that named them by chalking "Big Boy" on the smokebox door of the first one. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Big Boy > Greg sez: > > >I have a Bowser UP BigBoy for sale. I heard they used PRR and Horseshoe > >Curve to transfer the locomotive from ALCo to Wyoming. Contact me offlist. > > If it was ALCo built, it probably went NYC west and never saw PRR rails. > If it was Baldwin built it was routed Eddystone to Perryville to Columbia > (where it was cut out of the train and inspected by Baldwin) to Enola, and > on West via Horseshoe curve...I can model Santa Fe 2-10-4s in transit as > well as a couple of VO-1000s, circa June 1944. > > Happy Rails > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:29:26 -0000 Ok, where do I find it in the UK??? Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" To: "pgrace" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers > Patrick Grace wrote: > Avoid the Walthers' ones like the plague, they have a carrier film that is > so thick that micro-sol cannot deal with them......... > > > Micro-Sol can't deal with many of Walthers or older Champ sets - it's simply > not strong enough because it was specifically designed for thinfilm decals. > That's what Solvaset or Champ Decal Set is for! > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Big Boy Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:38:30 -0500 Greg & List, The only accurate models of the ATSF 5011-series 2-10-4's made in HO were brass imports. Bachmann had the correct locomotive in plastic at one time, but for some reason put the tender for a NYC Niagara behind it! Go figure, when they had the correct tender behind their 4-8-4! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" To: "Bruce F. Smith" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:10 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] UP Big Boy > Who makes an accurate model of the Santa Fe locomotives that the PRR leased? > Rivarossi? Bowser? > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. > Smith > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:56 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] UP Big Boy > > > Greg sez: > > >I have a Bowser UP BigBoy for sale. I heard they used PRR and Horseshoe > >Curve to transfer the locomotive from ALCo to Wyoming. Contact me offlist. > > If it was ALCo built, it probably went NYC west and never saw PRR rails. > If it was Baldwin built it was routed Eddystone to Perryville to Columbia > (where it was cut out of the train and inspected by Baldwin) to Enola, and > on West via Horseshoe curve...I can model Santa Fe 2-10-4s in transit as > well as a couple of VO-1000s, circa June 1944. > > Happy Rails > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:38:26 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] UP Big Boy >Who makes an accurate model of the Santa Fe locomotives that the PRR leased? >Rivarossi? Bowser? BRASS...(Larry Reynolds - I know you have one...who made it?) ...so I'm faced with buying a brass model, giving it a mint paint job (or a paitned model) and then removing the drive rods, and most likely covering the headlight, and windows with wood and the stack with oilcloth. These locos were almost certainly hauled dead to the Santa Fe. The VO 1000s will be easier. I have 2 of the Stewart Models already...one NP and one undec that will be a U.S. Army Tranportation Corps loco. I'll make them into unpowered dummies and again cover all the glass...and perhaps add a sign like that seen on a Frisco steamer headed west in 1941 (photo in the Keystone). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:33:17 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50 Bruce (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) points out... (As I am trying to catch up from being in Cocoa Beach with my mail) > Frank, you can argue this as much as you want, but from the Walthers perspective, this is the way the business works! The fact that we may see the trucks as a seperate part is reason to BE HAPPY...< And Bruce is certainly correct, but remeber that Walthers wants to make cars that sell. The trucks will come from an "overrun" at the end of production of the R50b and not because we modlers want a better truck for our ECW or BCW cars that are coming from anohter source. Inventory unfortunately is a bad word for all manufacturers, regardless of the cost of money right now. I spearheaded this project two years ago at Cocoa Beach and handed of much of the very "basic" information. It has taken that long to do the marketing and R&D. I think if you look at the scope of what has to be done on a single project you will see why. Bob Johnson and I spent most of August and part of September on just the appliances and paint and letttering. Bruce knew most of what was going on behind the scenes. At times I expected to get an email from Bob saying, "Okay, enough you guys, I just explained this..." but he hung in there and I credit the largest part of project to Bob Jhnson, all I did was get the committment to start it and then the basics. I am sure everyone is going to be more than pleased with what they buy it is as nice as brass and as bruce explained the underframe is "bare bones" but at least it leaves some modeling to us. Some will say. "if I have to pay $`*.!# for that damn thing I expect it to have all the brake riggiong...". But the funny thing is that we will pay almost 3 times that or more for brass with less detail and act like it is the best model man could buy.... Go Figure! Frank the truck will come but if all goes well with the sales of the R50b there is another car that will come along to absorb the overrun... sorry! Greg Martin ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÅ¢¶¬²+-jwÂ+a¶¬–+-þ™^jǯŠÈ­†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(§÷( !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:41:24 -0800 From: Ken Douglas Subject: [PRR] Re:Trainphone Era There were two phases for trainphone on the PRR. The first was the development phase that started about June, 1942 when an installation was made on the Belvedere branch along with the first locomotive and caboose. By 1944 there were ten cabooses and ten locomotives and one wayside station (Frenchtown, NJ). This installation used a 5.7-kilocycle AM signal. By 1947, the development installation had been superseded by an installation on two divisions, the Middle and Pittsburgh divisions. For this installation, the characteristics were changed to an FM signal with two frequencies--88 and 144 kilocycles (now kilohertz). As time went by, trainphone was installed over most of the PRR mainlines. By the middle 1960, conventional space radio had been developed to the extent that trainphone was obsolete. By the end of 1966, radio had been installed on the PRR. A general order was issued April 30, 1967 formally discontinuing trainphone. Since today in the 15th of the month a plug can be made for the book "Pennsy Diesels, 1924-1968" that contains a more extensive discussion of trainphone on pages 38 and 38. Ken Douglas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] M1 & M1a scale drawings Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:49:40 -0500 I am looking for scale drawings (preferably HO) for PRR class M1 and M1a locomotives. I already have diagrams but these are not sufficient for my needs. The book that I have these in is unavailable to me for some period of time. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated. Regards, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:17:48 -0500 Nick et al: I use a single action Wren air brush for painting water based paints. I thin my paint with 50/50 diluted vodka and overspray with water based clear varnish both as a base and a finish coat to protect the decal. All things considered, I prefer solvent based paint for its ease and excellent results. Good Luck, Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Kulp" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint questions > Bruce and list members, > > I have a real quandry. I was taught airbrushing by a professional in the 1980's. > I also learned how to paint by using the "dreaded" solvent-based paints. I have > tried many of the acrylic and water-based paints and I have never gotten a high-gloss > finish that is necessary to apply decals. Without the smooth-glossy finish, > decals look milky and do not settle properly. I use both a Pasche H-style and > the newer Millenium double-action brush and every time I have attempted to paint > a locomotive or car with anything but Scalecoat paint it has resulted in spending > money for paint stripper. I'd love to know how you can attain a high gloss finish > with the newer paints and without having to spend every three minutes clearing > the nozzle on the airbrush. Badger's early products and Accuflex, resulted in > having to purchase a new airbrush and a pretty colored bottle filled with a > jelly-like substance colored DGLE. Wasted money and wasted time. > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:59:13 -0600 > > Jeremy asks: > > > Hello all, First off let me say thanks to all who replied on the > >questions on PRR steam modeling and freight cars. I have a question I > >thought I should ask here though (my membership on the steam-era freight > >car list is pending right now). I am wondering if resin kits can be > >painted with "environmentally friendly" paints? And also what would be > >the suggested company to buy from? > > The bottom line is yes. I am a big fan of Poly Scale. I will say that my > previous enthusiasm was dampened over the past year, when I upgraded my air > > compressor...seems I had tons of trouble with my badger 150 airbrush > clogging because I was getting too much air!! I have since upgraded to a > Badger 200-20, and it works FANTASTIC with little or no thinning (ie paint > straight out of the bottle) and at lower psi than before (15-20 psi now). > When using Poly Scale or any of the other Alcolol based paints, remember > that they need to be strained...badger makes a little strainer that goes on > > the intake tube - works perfect. These paints also work well with brush > painting as they are self leveling. One helpful hint is to prewet the > brush beforw putting it in the paint. > > > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] M1 & M1a scale drawings Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:37:30 -0800 Harr, The Model Railroader Cyclopedia volume 1 has a plan of the M1a on page 180-181 Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: Harry Fitch To: PRR-Talk Sent: 15/01/2003 15:49 Subject: [PRR] M1 & M1a scale drawings I am looking for scale drawings (preferably HO) for PRR class M1 and M1a locomotives. I already have diagrams but these are not sufficient for my needs. The book that I have these in is unavailable to me for some period of time. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated. Regards, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:00:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale --part1_1ca.73210.2b575e31_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions and for prices. PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages notched out along edge. PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay PRR CT1515 Qualification Card PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60 PRR Annual Reports-1930,45,49,52,53,55,56,58,59,60,61,62 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle PRR Middle Div ETT No.14, 9-25-49 PRR Middle Div ETT No.17, 4-29-51 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached,has all G.O.'s PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used) PRR 25 year Bronze service pin PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark PC MW1-New Unused PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform CR Annual Reports-1977,81,82,83,84,86,87,89,96 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent. Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_1ca.73210.2b575e31_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List
     I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions and for prices.

PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages
notched out along edge.
PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6
PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960
PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay
PRR CT1515 Qualification Card
PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card
PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60
PRR Annual Reports-1930,45,49,52,53,55,56,58,59,60,61,62
PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle
PRR Middle Div ETT No.14, 9-25-49
PRR Middle Div ETT No.17, 4-29-51
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached,has all G.O.'s
PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)
PRR 25 year Bronze service pin
PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run
PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond
PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond
PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark
PC MW1-New Unused
PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges
PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform
CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform
CR Annual Reports-1977,81,82,83,84,86,87,89,96
CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo
but other wise excellent.

Thank you.
Pat McKinney

 --part1_1ca.73210.2b575e31_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Dremel Drill Press for Sale Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:12:32 -0500 Have a used dremel drill press for sale. Asking 10.00 +Shipping e-mail me off list Sam Vastano svastano@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:48:54 EST Subject: [PRR] Newton Square Branch, electrified? --part1_8b.220e40df.2b576986_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I read that the PRR had plans to electrify the Newton Square Branch, but that the plans were never carried out. I am sure people more expert than me can answer the question about commuter service to Philadelphia. However, the publication of the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRR Technical and Historical Society, The Newton Square Branch, has two timetables showing that the Philadelphia and Delaware County Railroad did run some trains to Philadelphia until 1908. Competition from the Philadelphia and West Chester Traction Company evidently caused a precipitous drop in passengers. Al Guckes --part1_8b.220e40df.2b576986_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I read that the PRR had plans to electrify the Newton Square Branch, but that the plans were never carried out.

I am sure people more expert than me can answer the question about commuter service to Philadelphia. However, the publication of the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRR Technical and Historical Society, The Newton Square Branch, has two timetables showing that the Philadelphia and Delaware County Railroad did run some trains to Philadelphia until 1908. Competition from the Philadelphia and West Chester Traction Company evidently caused a precipitous drop in passengers.

Al Guckes --part1_8b.220e40df.2b576986_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:03:45 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8's I heard a rumor that the PRR E-8's are coming to Spencer Shops in Spencer, NC for Rail Days in late April. Would love to know the route and schedule so I can plan for photos. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:43:37 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Newton Square Branch, electrified? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Uz1CVBp35rW2cqK9uO9ZiQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT go to Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRTHS website at http://prrths.com/Phila_New_Index.htm. Keep abreast of the newsstand. The Newtown Square Edition, I believe, is soon to be re-produced for a 2nd time with added photo's. I will let you know when it comes out. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 8:49 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Newton Square Branch, electrified? I think I read that the PRR had plans to electrify the Newton Square Branch, but that the plans were never carried out. I am sure people more expert than me can answer the question about commuter service to Philadelphia. However, the publication of the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRR Technical and Historical Society, The Newton Square Branch, has two timetables showing that the Philadelphia and Delaware County Railroad did run some trains to Philadelphia until 1908. Competition from the Philadelphia and West Chester Traction Company evidently caused a precipitous drop in passengers. Al Guckes --Boundary_(ID_Uz1CVBp35rW2cqK9uO9ZiQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
go to Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRTHS website at  http://prrths.com/Phila_New_Index.htm.  Keep abreast of the newsstand.  The Newtown Square Edition, I believe, is soon to be re-produced for a 2nd time with added photo's. I will let you know when it comes out.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ALGUCKES@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 8:49 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Newton Square Branch, electrified?

I think I read that the PRR had plans to electrify the Newton Square Branch, but that the plans were never carried out.

I am sure people more expert than me can answer the question about commuter service to Philadelphia. However, the publication of the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRR Technical and Historical Society, The Newton Square Branch, has two timetables showing that the Philadelphia and Delaware County Railroad did run some trains to Philadelphia until 1908. Competition from the Philadelphia and West Chester Traction Company evidently caused a precipitous drop in passengers.

Al Guckes
--Boundary_(ID_Uz1CVBp35rW2cqK9uO9ZiQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:25:32 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Bowser Painting I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting to chip. How should I use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? I heard about etching the locomotive with white vinigar prior to painting to give is a microsize dimpled surface for better adhesion of the primer and paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last thing I need is a bowl full of super detail parts floating around in it. How long should it sit in the vinigar. How many coats of paint should I put on? What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used scalecoat and was happy with the results. How does floquil go on? How many coats of primer? Thanks for your input Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting Greg, If you want to etch the boiler in vinegar, do so before you start assembly. I've only done this on 1 engine so far; I haven't finished my L1s yet, so I can't say how much it helps with paint chipping. Vinegar may, in fact, break down CA joints, and I think it actually eats away brass (relatively slowly, but nonetheless). Those of you with more science classes than I had (which would be most of you....grin!), please pipe up. --- Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: > I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting > to chip. How should I > use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? > > I heard about etching the locomotive with white > vinigar prior to painting to > give is a microsize dimpled surface for better > adhesion of the primer and > paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last > thing I need is a bowl > full of super detail parts floating around in it. > How long should it sit in > the vinigar. > > How many coats of paint should I put on? > > What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used > scalecoat and was happy > with the results. How does floquil go on? How many > coats of primer? > > Thanks for your input > > Greg V > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:38:25 -0500 Vinegar is acidic. Using it was a trick my parent's generation used to etch the zinc to get better paint adhesion on the old galvanized rain gutters. I used it to remove some very heavy tarnish on brass door harware with no apparent ill effects. I have seen some recommendations to use the red oxide(sic) primer rather than the grey on 'new' metal. I'm interested in this thread because I have at least one Bowser that I will be painting. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting > Greg, > > If you want to etch the boiler in vinegar, do so > before you start assembly. I've only done this on 1 > engine so far; I haven't finished my L1s yet, so I > can't say how much it helps with paint chipping. > > Vinegar may, in fact, break down CA joints, and I > think it actually eats away brass (relatively slowly, > but nonetheless). Those of you with more science > classes than I had (which would be most of > you....grin!), please pipe up. > --- Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr > wrote: > > I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting > > to chip. How should I > > use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? > > > > I heard about etching the locomotive with white > > vinigar prior to painting to > > give is a microsize dimpled surface for better > > adhesion of the primer and > > paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last > > thing I need is a bowl > > full of super detail parts floating around in it. > > How long should it sit in > > the vinigar. > > > > How many coats of paint should I put on? > > > > What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used > > scalecoat and was happy > > with the results. How does floquil go on? How many > > coats of primer? > > > > Thanks for your input > > > > Greg V > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:17:45 -0500 Tom & group, I have used thinned down self etching primer for automotive use with good results. I have painted both brass & Bowser locos. It will not chip trust me! I dropped a bowser off the workbench to the floor with no chips, the detail parts took a beating but not the paint. Just my opinion. Sam Vastano >From: "Tom Mahon" >To: "Doug Kisala" , "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" > >CC: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting >Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:38:25 -0500 > >Vinegar is acidic. Using it was a trick my parent's generation used to etch >the zinc to get better paint adhesion on the old galvanized rain gutters. I >used it to remove some very heavy tarnish on brass door harware with no >apparent ill effects. I have seen some recommendations to use the red >oxide(sic) primer rather than the grey on 'new' metal. I'm interested in >this thread because I have at least one Bowser that I will be painting. > >Tom Mahon >Merrimack, NH > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Doug Kisala" >To: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" >Cc: >Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 3:41 AM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting > > > > Greg, > > > > If you want to etch the boiler in vinegar, do so > > before you start assembly. I've only done this on 1 > > engine so far; I haven't finished my L1s yet, so I > > can't say how much it helps with paint chipping. > > > > Vinegar may, in fact, break down CA joints, and I > > think it actually eats away brass (relatively slowly, > > but nonetheless). Those of you with more science > > classes than I had (which would be most of > > you....grin!), please pipe up. > > --- Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr > > wrote: > > > I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting > > > to chip. How should I > > > use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? > > > > > > I heard about etching the locomotive with white > > > vinigar prior to painting to > > > give is a microsize dimpled surface for better > > > adhesion of the primer and > > > paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last > > > thing I need is a bowl > > > full of super detail parts floating around in it. > > > How long should it sit in > > > the vinigar. > > > > > > How many coats of paint should I put on? > > > > > > What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used > > > scalecoat and was happy > > > with the results. How does floquil go on? How many > > > coats of primer? > > > > > > Thanks for your input > > > > > > Greg V > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:28:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting In a message dated 1/16/03 6:47:19 AM Central Standard Time, tmahon@adelphia.net writes: << I have seen some recommendations to use the red oxide(sic) primer rather than the grey on 'new' metal >> The red oxide (or zinc chromate) is not a primer any more than any other paint, it is just a color, to the best of my knowledge. Ready to stand corrected by one of the manufacturers if that is not true. Good starting point for PRR "freight car color", though :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser Painting Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:53:10 -0800 Whenever I paint a metal engine, be it brass or white metal, I always follow four steps: 1) wash the engine thoroughly with Dawn dish soap, warm water, and a fierce scrubbing with a toothbrush. This gets rid of any finger and cutting oils left on the engine (I generally wash an engine several times during the assembly process, since ACC doesn't like cutting oil). 2) etch the engine with white vinegar, and rewash. White vinegar will microabrade the metal of the engine, which is really the vinegar eating away at the metal! But...household vinegar isn't strong enough to eat all the metal away, and the water will wash it all away, stopping the chemical reaction anyway. 3) Paint the engine. At least two thin, even coats. Don't bother with "primer", since it's really just paint anyway. In this ultra-high-tech modeling world of Accuflex and Scalecoat, I prefer Krylon out of a spray can. The paint goes on smooth & evenly, with a minimum of spotting, is a more resilient paint than model paint (which means it won't chip as readily), and costs around $2.50 for a huge can of paint. Don't laugh until you try it! Krylon makes four shades of black, in three "shininess" levels (including a dead flat which is flatter than any model paint I've ever seen!). 4) BAKE. Turn the oven on to 150 or 175, place the model (paint dry to the touch) in the center of the oven, and take it out about 1 hour later. You will end up with a virtually indestructible paint finish. Note: DO NOT BAKE PLASTIC! Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 9:26 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Bowser Painting I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting to chip. How should I use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? I heard about etching the locomotive with white vinigar prior to painting to give is a microsize dimpled surface for better adhesion of the primer and paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last thing I need is a bowl full of super detail parts floating around in it. How long should it sit in the vinigar. How many coats of paint should I put on? What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used scalecoat and was happy with the results. How does floquil go on? How many coats of primer? Thanks for your input Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser Painting Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:07:35 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Whatever method is chosen to paint metals, the surface must be ABSOLUTELY clean. Surface preparation is the MOST IMPORTANT step in painting a metal model. And once cleaned, the model should not be touched. Hands deposit oil on surfaces, and this oil (and the paint above it) can easily come off while the locomotive is handled. The best method of cleaning is probaby quartz blasting, which gives the metal tooth for adhesion. I clean my models with an ultrasonic cleaner, and paint the model ASAP after the clenaing material has been reinsed off and the model is dry. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 7:28 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting In a message dated 1/16/03 6:47:19 AM Central Standard Time, tmahon@adelphia.net writes: << I have seen some recommendations to use the red oxide(sic) primer rather than the grey on 'new' metal >> The red oxide (or zinc chromate) is not a primer any more than any other paint, it is just a color, to the best of my knowledge. Ready to stand corrected by one of the manufacturers if that is not true. Good starting point for PRR "freight car color", though :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser Painting Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:17:08 -0500 Listers, Floquil in its military colors line makes a spray can called figure primer. I believe it is formulated for priming metal military miniature figures. It works well on metal. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:21:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting >I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting to chip. How should I >use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? Don't bother. The "primers" sold by Floquil (either grey or "zinc oxide" are not true primers, but as has been said, really just another paint, and they cover up details (although, on a Bowser engine, that might be desirable...anything to reduce those hamburger sized rivets !!!). >I heard about etching the locomotive with white vinigar prior to painting to >give is a microsize dimpled surface for better adhesion of the primer and >paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last thing I need is a bowl >full of super detail parts floating around in it. How long should it sit in >the vinigar. Grit blast it. Works VERY well to add tooth, it won't remove details and its not toxic. I have the North Coast Hobbies booth - vey nice, but not cheap. Just about the same booth (minus the fine tip) can be had from Harbor Freight for less than $100. >How many coats of paint should I put on? As many as needed, but not so many as to cover the details . With Polyscale, I usually end up with 2-3 light coats being sufficient. >What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used scalecoat and was happy >with the results. How does floquil go on? How many coats of primer? I use Poly Scale - sticks well to grit blasted metal (brass, zinc, etc). It is probably more "fragile" than the enamels, but I feel that it is up to the task, adn retouches MUCH better, due to its self leveling properties. Both Floquil and Scalecoat are pushed as being for brass. These are enamel paints, so they have the associated health risks (model rr's have a higher than normal incidence of liver cancer... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: [PRR] Timely news ? Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:59:16 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BD6F.D6ED2340 Content-Type: text/plain I noticed a mention of the PRR E-8's in an earlier posting that it is "Rumored" they will appear somewhere. Is there any source of news that has this information and is easily accessable ? ( I am not a member of the PRRTHS ) I do have a subscription to "Trains" magazine and was steaming mad when in the December issue they had a photo of these units on Delaware Ave back in May. (Seems most news in that mag is months old) That is 5 miles from my house -and I missed it. How does one get the word of events occuring in their area ? Thanks Kenny ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BD6F.D6ED2340 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Timely news ?

I noticed a mention of the PRR E-8's = in an earlier posting that it is "Rumored" they will appear = somewhere.
Is there any source of news that has = this information and is easily accessable ?  ( I am not a member = of the PRRTHS )
I do have a subscription to = "Trains" magazine and was steaming mad when in the December = issue they had a photo of these units on Delaware Ave back in May. = (Seems most news in that mag is months old)   That is 5 miles = from my house  -and I missed it.    How does one = get the word of events occuring in their area ?

Thanks

Kenny

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BD6F.D6ED2340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:12:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Bill Knepper From: Jerry Britton A bit belated, but I learned last evening from Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS, that Society and Chapter member Bill Knepper passed away earlier this month from complications from an earlier surgery. Bill was the point person who guided the restoration of the New Freedom station, on the Northern Central Branch at New Freedom, PA. He was 51. Bill was a frequent contributor to "PRR-talk", may his signature rest in peace... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:56:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Doodlebugs on the Panhandle Tried posting this on the PRRTHS Forum but did not get response I needed, so will try here. At one time, probably in the teens or twenties, passenger service was being provided on the Atlasburg secondary from Burgettstown to Atlasburg, PA, by a gas/electric "doodlebug". Service may also have been provided on the Cherry Valley and Cedar Grove (Studa) secondaries. Does anyone know exactly what type of railcar was used for this service, have pictures, car numbers, etc? What about steam trains they may also have been used on these routes? By the way, Burgettstown is (or rather, was, as the tracks have now been removed) located on the old Panhandle division mainline of the PRR between Pittsburgh and Mingo Junction. Thanks in advance. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:44:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] HO Scale "Merchandise Service" X29's Ready-to-Run From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement... Red Caboose has in production, for February shipment, HO scale PRR X-29 box cars with dreadnaught ends, in the "Merchandise Service" scheme. 12 road numbers will be available. Cars will feature McHenry couplers and metal wheels. "Suggested" retail prices are $17.95 for kits and $27.95 for ready-to-run. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] passenger stations Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:30:41 +0000 I need an education about the golden age and stations. I was in the Charlotte airport last night watching plnes land and it is just the opposite of what RR's did. The planes go all over the sky and basically follow each other into one track (runway) at the terminal. Railroads had one track that split at a station so that more than one train could be serviced at the same time. I understand N. Philadelphia with one platform with two tracks in each direction as a clocker and a name train or a PRSL train could be in the station at one time. I also understand that 30th st. was designed as a Union station that never came about so there are excess platforms and tracks. BUT, why was Broad Street so many tracks or Penn Station so many tracks or Pittsburgh? IF N. PHl could handle both the east west and north south traffic why couldn't two platforms work in New York or Pittsburgh? Were they monuments from the day they were built? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] passenger stations Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:32:00 -0500 Norm, The BIG difference is whether the station is a through station or a terminal. At through stations, trains dwell for a few minutes at most and then resume their journeys, so a track might handle six trains within an hour easily.. A terminal station, OTOH, is the beginning and end point for trains, so EVERYONE gets on and off, including the train crew, and this takes MUCH longer, especially if it is a stub ended terminal, where switch engines must handle the train.. One train an hour would a a good average for a stub ended terminal track. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:30 PM Subject: [PRR] passenger stations > I need an education about the golden age and stations. I was in the Charlotte > airport last night watching plnes land and it is just the opposite of what RR's > did. The planes go all over the sky and basically follow each other into one > track (runway) at the terminal. Railroads had one track that split at a > station so that more than one train could be serviced at the same time. I > understand N. Philadelphia with one platform with two tracks in each direction > as a clocker and a name train or a PRSL train could be in the station at one > time. I also understand that 30th st. was designed as a Union station that > never came about so there are excess platforms and tracks. BUT, why was Broad > Street so many tracks or Penn Station so many tracks or Pittsburgh? IF N. PHl > could handle both the east west and north south traffic why couldn't two > platforms work in New York or Pittsburgh? Were they monuments from the day > they were built? Thanks, Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:36:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] passenger stations From: Jerry Britton On 1/16/03 1:32 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > The BIG difference is whether the station is a through station or a > terminal. At through stations, trains dwell for a few minutes at most and > then resume their journeys, so a track might handle six trains within an > hour easily.. A terminal station, OTOH, is the beginning and end point for > trains, so EVERYONE gets on and off, including the train crew, and this > takes MUCH longer, especially if it is a stub ended terminal, where switch > engines must handle the train.. One train an hour would a a good average for > a stub ended terminal track. > The other fallacy about comparing to an airport is that the runway would really be just an approach track...once landed airplanes spread out all over the terminal area...different wings, multiple gates, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:44:16 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X38 Elden [ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] writes: > Greg and Steve and all; > Thanks for the feedback. I also suspected that it would be difficult to do in HO, as I believe that the X37 and X38 (in unrebuilt form, at least) shared similar side sheathing patterns and roof patterns.< Even when the cars were rebuilt in the mid-60's the side sheathing was the same pattern, which is the bugaboo. Not that you can't do it but it is not for the faint at heart. You can resheath the sides with .005" styrene with a new rivet pattern. For the rebuilt plug door car you could use the Athearn car but removing the ladders on the ends would be no fun. But it could be done on the P2K car just resheath and add a plug door. Watch the roof as there are three different roofs on the rebuilds as well. >I suppose one might investigate the possibility of resin-bashing a Sunshine X37, but talk about expensive! Too bad, as the X38 was numerous, found in many kinds of service (including dedicated auto parts), and really cool looking to boot! > Elden Hack up resin... YIKES! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:46:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] passenger stations In a message dated 1/16/03 11:36:10 AM, ndbprr@att.net writes: << I was in the Charlotte airport last night watching plnes land and it is just the opposite of what RR's did. The planes go all over the sky and basically follow each other into one track (runway) at the terminal. Railroads had one track that split at a station so that more than one train could be serviced at the same time. >> I disagree with your analysis. I worked on the Pennsy for 6 years and then went to work for American Airlines. I was always amazed at how they were the same business. The planes don't follow into one track. The runway is the "mainline." Few railroad location had more that one or, maybe, two "mainlines." The Pennsy mainline had four tracks. Most airports have two parallel runways, "mainlines," DFW has four. The passenger vehicles, train or plane, travels between terminals on the mainline and, once within the destination terminal limits, is shunted to a secondary route that takes them to a staging area in the terminal, platforms in one, boarding gates in another. We build these terminal staging areas to accommodate the number or variety of planes/trains we have at any one time. The number of platforms or gates may also be a function of the type of passenger service, through or connecting. A railroad whistle stop had one track, that spilt at either end, and two platforms (maybe) to accommodate the daily eastbound and westbound at the same time. An airport may have one second level boarding position to accommodate the two daily flights (if they are there at the same time, one will be boarded from the ground). 30th Street Stations had platforms to accommodate through traffic and local traffic from Suburban Station. The property was developed over years to best utilize available resources to accommodate well defined passenger volumes and flows. That optimum utilization for high volume hasn't existed for the railroads for 40-50 years. Center city rail stations are disappearing, unless there is significant commuter traffic (SEPTA, DART, BART). Many of the rail terminals in which I worked no longer exist as rail facilities, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Penn Station, for example. Airports, each of which has a much larger "footprint" than rail terminals ever did, are growing and new gates added as quickly as possible as passenger volumes grow. There are very few places to build new airports and increases in capacity come as a result of increasing the number of gates and the number of seats per plane. No, they are two versions of the same business, one almost dead the other much more dynamic. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:43:27 -0500 From: Charles Chandler Subject: [PRR] Brill Tower This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_sPDn+bHM8n0qHUvDm6gRYw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi everyone, I am in the process of planning my next PRR layout based on the Phila. area. Although I live very close to Philly, I don't know exactly where Brill tower is(or was). Would like to visit the area sometime to see what is left. Also would like to know the layout of the interlocking in the 50's and where the tower stood. Thanks, Charlie C. --Boundary_(ID_sPDn+bHM8n0qHUvDm6gRYw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi everyone, I am in the process of planning my next PRR layout based on the Phila. area. Although I live very close to Philly, I don't know exactly where Brill tower is(or was). Would like to visit the area sometime to see what is left. Also would like to know the layout of the interlocking in the 50's and where the tower stood. Thanks, Charlie C.
--Boundary_(ID_sPDn+bHM8n0qHUvDm6gRYw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:13:40 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04C1_01C2BD61.16B14970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you visit carry a gun. It was a very interesting area because the B&O crossed to the east. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charles Chandler=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:43 PM Subject: [PRR] Brill Tower Hi everyone, I am in the process of planning my next PRR layout based = on the Phila. area. Although I live very close to Philly, I don't know = exactly where Brill tower is(or was). Would like to visit the area = sometime to see what is left. Also would like to know the layout of the = interlocking in the 50's and where the tower stood. Thanks, Charlie C. ------=_NextPart_000_04C1_01C2BD61.16B14970 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you visit carry a gun.
 
It was a very interesting area because = the B&O=20 crossed to the east.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charles=20 Chandler
Sent: Thursday, January 16, = 2003 12:43=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Brill = Tower

Hi everyone, I am in the process of = planning my=20 next PRR layout based on the Phila. area. Although I live very close = to=20 Philly, I don't know exactly where Brill tower is(or was). Would = like to=20 visit the area sometime to see what is left. Also would like to know = the=20 layout of the interlocking in the 50's and where the tower stood. = Thanks,=20 Charlie C.
------=_NextPart_000_04C1_01C2BD61.16B14970-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Bowser H21 Retool Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:30:59 -0500 Don't recall discussion on this item before ( so shoot me if there was) but in e-mail dialogs with Lee English at Bowser he has confirmed that the HO H21 hopper body has been retooled to eliminate the heavy top chord reinforcing member. The new body will be phased in as current stocks are depleted. There will be no change in stock numbers and no timetable as to when the phase in will be completed. Currently, the new bodies are available in #54061 Coal Goes To War cars only. Now. can someone please refresh my memory as to the time frame that the reinforcing member was removed? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] X38 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:58:17 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BDAA.603B8A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greg, Steve, and all; I have looked at this with some idea of doing it. I would like an X38c (or 2 or 3!) in auto parts service. The differences I can see (and I'd sure like to see more photos) are the addition of side panels, which would have to be added, or like Greg said, a new side created, plus the addition of new panels in the PRR-designed roof. The rebuilds would actually be easier to do, with the availability of nice replacement roofs for 50 footers and sides that could be used. Given the list of projects I am already working on, I just wish that someone like Martin Lofton would just get Frank (the MAN) Hodina to do it for us! Regards all, Elden -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:44 PM To: ELDEN GATWOOD; steveh@dotstar.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X38 Elden [ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] writes: > Greg and Steve and all; > Thanks for the feedback. I also suspected that it would be difficult to do in HO, as I believe that the X37 and X38 (in unrebuilt form, at least) shared similar side sheathing patterns and roof patterns.< Even when the cars were rebuilt in the mid-60's the side sheathing was the same pattern, which is the bugaboo. Not that you can't do it but it is not for the faint at heart. You can resheath the sides with .005" styrene with a new rivet pattern. For the rebuilt plug door car you could use the Athearn car but removing the ladders on the ends would be no fun. But it could be done on the P2K car just resheath and add a plug door. Watch the roof as there are three different roofs on the rebuilds as well. >I suppose one might investigate the possibility of resin-bashing a Sunshine X37, but talk about expensive! Too bad, as the X38 was numerous, found in many kinds of service (including dedicated auto parts), and really cool looking to boot! > Elden Hack up resin... YIKES! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BDAA.603B8A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] X38

Greg, Steve, and all;
I have looked at this with some idea of doing = it.  I would like an X38c (or 2 or 3!) in auto parts = service.  The differences I can see (and I'd sure like to see more = photos) are the addition of side panels, which would have to be added, = or like Greg said, a new side created, plus the addition of new panels = in the PRR-designed roof.  The rebuilds would actually be easier = to do, with the availability of nice replacement roofs for 50 footers = and sides that could be used.  Given the list of projects I am = already working on, I just wish that someone like Martin Lofton would = just get Frank (the MAN) Hodina to do it for us!

Regards all,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:44 PM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD; steveh@dotstar.net; = prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] X38


Elden [ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] writes:

> Greg and Steve and all;
> Thanks for the feedback.  I also suspected = that it would be difficult to do in HO, as I believe that the X37 and = X38 (in unrebuilt form, at least) shared similar side sheathing = patterns and roof patterns.< 

Even when the cars were rebuilt in the mid-60's the = side sheathing was the same pattern, which is the bugaboo. Not that you = can't do it but it is not for the faint at heart. You can resheath the = sides with .005" styrene with a new rivet pattern. For the rebuilt = plug door car you could use the Athearn car but removing the ladders on = the ends would be no fun. But it could be done on the P2K car just = resheath and add a plug door. Watch the roof as there are three = different roofs on the rebuilds as well.

>I suppose one might investigate the possibility = of resin-bashing a Sunshine X37, but talk about expensive!  Too = bad, as the X38 was numerous, found in many kinds of service (including = dedicated auto parts), and really cool looking to boot!

> Elden

Hack up resin... YIKES!

Greg Martin

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BDAA.603B8A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser H21 Retool Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:03:55 -0600 Frank, IIRC, not all H21a's received the angle reinforcement on the top cord and the H21e rebuilds would have no reinforcing angle. Pete Reinhold ------ Don't recall discussion on this item before ( so shoot me if there was) but in e-mail dialogs with Lee English at Bowser he has confirmed that the HO H21 hopper body has been retooled to eliminate the heavy top chord reinforcing member. The new body will be phased in as current stocks are depleted. There will be no change in stock numbers and no timetable as to when the phase in will be completed. Currently, the new bodies are available in #54061 Coal Goes To War cars only. Now. can someone please refresh my memory as to the time frame that the reinforcing member was removed? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser H21 Retool Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:15:51 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BDAC.D4668BB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Frank, That is good news! Does this mean that we will see an H21e with the triangular gussets in place of the horizontal reinforcements in the near future? It sure would be a simple add-on (part), and give them a remarkable variety. For those of us that model later PRR, it would give us the reason to buy a couple dozen more. Elden -----Original Message----- From: parkvarieties [mailto:parkvarieties@provide.net] Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 1:31 PM To: PRR- Talk Subject: [PRR] Bowser H21 Retool Don't recall discussion on this item before ( so shoot me if there was) but in e-mail dialogs with Lee English at Bowser he has confirmed that the HO H21 hopper body has been retooled to eliminate the heavy top chord reinforcing member. The new body will be phased in as current stocks are depleted. There will be no change in stock numbers and no timetable as to when the phase in will be completed. Currently, the new bodies are available in #54061 Coal Goes To War cars only. Now. can someone please refresh my memory as to the time frame that the reinforcing member was removed? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BDAC.D4668BB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Bowser H21 Retool

Frank,  That is good news!  Does this mean = that we will see an H21e with the triangular gussets in place of the = horizontal reinforcements in the near future?  It sure would be a = simple add-on (part), and give them a remarkable variety.  For = those of us that model later PRR, it would give us the reason to buy a = couple dozen more.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: parkvarieties [mailto:parkvarieties@provide.n= et]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 1:31 PM
To: PRR- Talk
Subject: [PRR] Bowser H21 Retool


Don't recall discussion on this item before ( so = shoot me if there was)  but
in e-mail dialogs with
Lee English at Bowser he has confirmed that the HO = H21 hopper body has been
retooled to eliminate the heavy top chord = reinforcing member.  The new body
will be phased in as current stocks are = depleted.  There will be no change
in stock numbers and no timetable
as to when the phase in will be completed.  = Currently, the new bodies are
available in #54061 Coal Goes To War cars = only.

Now. can someone please refresh my memory as to the = time frame
that the reinforcing member was removed?  = Thanks.

Frank Brua


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BDAC.D4668BB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:45:57 +0000 Grit blast. Are there different grits/pressures to be used for "making tooth", stripping or cleaning ? If so, which are the best for the various purposes ? Thank you. - HANK > >I painted a K4 last year and the paint is starting to chip. How should I > >use to prime the next Bowser engine I paint? > > Don't bother. The "primers" sold by Floquil (either grey or "zinc oxide" > are not true primers, but as has been said, really just another paint, and > they cover up details (although, on a Bowser engine, that might be > desirable...anything to reduce those hamburger sized rivets !!!). > > >I heard about etching the locomotive with white vinigar prior to painting to > >give is a microsize dimpled surface for better adhesion of the primer and > >paint. Does white vinigar break down CA? The last thing I need is a bowl > >full of super detail parts floating around in it. How long should it sit in > >the vinigar. > > Grit blast it. Works VERY well to add tooth, it won't remove details and > its not toxic. I have the North Coast Hobbies booth - vey nice, but not > cheap. Just about the same booth (minus the fine tip) can be had from > Harbor Freight for less than $100. > > >How many coats of paint should I put on? > > As many as needed, but not so many as to cover the details . With > Polyscale, I usually end up with 2-3 light coats being sufficient. > > >What type of paint should I use? Last time, I used scalecoat and was happy > >with the results. How does floquil go on? How many coats of primer? > > I use Poly Scale - sticks well to grit blasted metal (brass, zinc, etc). > It is probably more "fragile" than the enamels, but I feel that it is up to > the task, adn retouches MUCH better, due to its self leveling properties. > Both Floquil and Scalecoat are pushed as being for brass. These are enamel > paints, so they have the associated health risks (model rr's have a higher > than normal incidence of liver cancer... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] H21g: Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 23:23:55 -0500 For those of you that don't get by Strasburg too often - Here it is on Friday 12/20/2002 on a very windy and cold day - Took a troop of Girl Scouts to the Choo-Choo Barn. On all Fridays in December, you can get admission to the Choo-Choo Barn for a donation of a can of food. No I could not convince them to take a ride on the SRR. http://www.wsbcos.com/h21g_194796.jpg How many cars do you see that still have their ACI strip still on? Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting the Bowser locos Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:43:12 -0500 Greg: I think this thread is nearly exhausted but it needs some tweaking. And of course, I get to add some of my 2 cents. :-) ACC is not a waterproof adhesive, neither is fast setting epoxy or any epoxy that cures clear or translucent. The only reliable primers are those we "borrow" from the auto repair industry. The alloy boilers that Bowser makes oxidize rapidly, but not as rapidly as the high lead (pewter?) alloy they sold several years ago. I remove all flash and do all the cutting and drilling with cutting oil to add the detail parts first. Do any filing, filling and sanding. Then, it is a good idea to thoroghly clean the metal before assembly with strong detergent and/or TSP (tri-sodium phosphate) to remove all the mold release material and grease and oils from the manufacturing and drilling process. Vinegar etch for several hours or until you see very tiny bubbles form a mat on the surface. Use white vinegar, it has nothing in it but acetic acid and water to dilute it to 5% acidity. If you want a more aggressive etch or want to move faster, use photo stop bath, which is 28% acetic acid. Dilute if you want. I use it full strength on the brass parts. Use eye and skin protection with this item. Separately wash and etch all the metal detail parts and wash any plastic parts. Rinse off the acid with plain water. Chemically blacken the brass and steel details, especially the handrails. (These are hard to keep from chipping, and if the underlay metal is black, you won't notice the shiny brass or silver spot.) When the body is clean and dry, put on surgical gloves and add all the details in two stages. I use industrial slow seting epoxy, the opaque kind with metal fillers, to attach the large details that get bumped a lot and ACC for the rest. The epoxy can take more shear force than ACC. Use an accelerator on the ACC to make it harder. Allow the body to sit undisturbed in a warm place for 24 hours to make sure everything has "cured" completely. I use a closed cardboard box with a 25 watt light bulb. That keeps the temperature at about 130 degrees F. and the epoxy can cure through and through. At this temperature, the plastic details won't melt or distort. Still wearing gloves, wash the body gently in 90% isopropyl alcohol to remove any finger grease and the residue of the ACC accelerator. Air dry for about an hour then airbrush two very thin auto primer coats onto the body. Allow about 15 minutes between coats. The first coat will appear to be dry, but it will readily bond with the second coat. Don't worry if you miss some out of the way spots, just keep the coatings thin. Back in the box for an overnight bake. The next day, paint the iron oxide roof and tender deck and then back in the box for over night. Mask off the roof and tender deck and spray DGLE (or Brunswick Green if you prefer :-). Remove the masking and back in the box for 24 hours. Use a small brush to touch up any spots and paint the interior of the cab, window sash color etc. I coat the loco with a thinned out clear gloss paint and bake it overnight. Add the canvass curtains at the back of the cab and paint with a brush. Then I decal, dullcoat, weather and dullcoat and weather again, but I don't bake this time. Add jewels, lenses, fireman's apron between the cab and tender, details on the running boards or foot boards and figures to the cab and you are done! Wear gloves when handling the loco throughout this process. The weathering is suseptable to removal by abrasion, so be careful how you handle the loco. When I have to handle my locos, I always use two hands and cover the loco with a small piece of saran wrap or plastic bag to keep my fingers off the paint. I don't like giant fingerprints in the weathering. The finish should be so durable at this point, it will resist scratching, chipping, flaking and scrubbing. I tried to change the DGLE color one of my Bowser locos once, and had to grit blast it because it resisted the paint remover I was using. That is tough. Have fun! Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:57:38 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BDA1.E733A120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brill was the 2nd tower from 30th station towards Wilmington. =20 First comes Arsenal. Arsenal is where the upper level middle platform = tracks (Maryland Div tracks) from Broad join the lower level tracks from = Penn, and where the Media branch diverges. Arsenal also controlled the = junction of tracks from Greenwich yard to the highline. =20 Second came Brill. This is where the highline tracks joined up with the = tracks from Arsenal. Tracks from the west were numbered 1,2,3,4 as you = might expect. Tracks to the east were numbered 2,3,1,4 where 2,3 were = for freight headed to the highline and 1,4 were for passengers headed to = Penn and Broad. The role of Brill was to cross everybody to the proper = track. =20 Brill is somewhat uncharacteristic of the PRR actually. Makes you = wonder why something like Morris wasn't built. Or Park, or Thorn, or = Lane, or Bell, or ... Brill was also unusual in that it was an = Armstrong lever machine. =20 I don't think the tower is still standing. It has been replaced in = function by Phil and is where the airport line diverges. Phil realigns = tracks 1 and 4 from Arsenal to be 2 and 3 so Amtrak doesn't have to = crossover. =20 Maps can be found at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com =20 John -----Original Message----- From: Charles Chandler To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Brill Tower =20 =20 Hi everyone, I am in the process of planning my next PRR layout = based on the Phila. area. Although I live very close to Philly, I don't = know exactly where Brill tower is(or was). Would like to visit the area = sometime to see what is left. Also would like to know the layout of the = interlocking in the 50's and where the tower stood. Thanks, Charlie C. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BDA1.E733A120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brill was the 2nd tower from 30th = station=20 towards Wilmington.
 
First comes Arsenal.  Arsenal = is where the=20 upper level middle platform tracks (Maryland Div tracks) from Broad join = the=20 lower level tracks from Penn, and where the Media branch diverges.  = Arsenal=20 also controlled the junction of tracks from Greenwich yard to the=20 highline.
 
Second came Brill.  This is where the highline = tracks=20 joined up with the tracks from Arsenal.  Tracks from the west were = numbered=20 1,2,3,4 as you might expect.  Tracks to the east were numbered = 2,3,1,4=20 where 2,3 were for freight headed to the highline and 1,4 were for = passengers=20 headed to Penn and Broad.  The role of Brill was to cross everybody = to the=20 proper track.
 
Brill is somewhat uncharacteristic of the PRR = actually. =20 Makes you wonder why something like Morris wasn't built.  Or Park, = or=20 Thorn, or Lane, or Bell, or ...   Brill was also unusual in that it was an Armstrong lever=20 machine.
 
I don't think the tower is still = standing. =20 It has been replaced in function by Phil and is where the airport line=20 diverges.  Phil realigns tracks 1 and 4 from Arsenal to be 2 and 3 = so=20 Amtrak doesn't have to crossover.
 
Maps can be found at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com
 
John
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Charles Chandler <shelb68man@comcast.net>
= To:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com = <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:53 PM
Subject: [PRR] = Brill=20 Tower

Hi everyone, I am in the process of = planning my=20 next PRR layout based on the Phila. area. Although I live very close = to=20 Philly, I don't know exactly where Brill tower is(or was). = Would like=20 to visit the area sometime to see what is left. Also would like to = know the=20 layout of the interlocking in the 50's and where the tower stood. = Thanks,=20 Charlie C.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BDA1.E733A120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:12:01 -0800 Subject: [PRR] early type solid pilot Hi Gary, Gary wrote: > Page 124-125 in Many Faces of K4 shows K4 5492 with the first drop >coupler Pilot of 1928. This would be good for your era but not the others >who are modeling the post war versions. For either version I would think >putty can be applied and carved into the proper shape. Its only N scale so >not much is needed to get the look of a solid pilot.....Gary. Now that I think of it, I have several Minitrix K4 locos where the plastic "chicken-coop" pilot is broken or missing - not my doing - they were bought used and abused. Making one of these pilots would be a really good way to repair one of these old beat-up locos and bring it back into service. I have also (in the past) considered adding plain "sheet-metal" sheathing on top of the chicken coop pilots. This was standard practice on the LIRR, and when K4 locos leased to the LIRR were returned to the PRR they kept this sheet metal for at least a little while. So using the same approach as the LIRR shop workmen, I'd add a bit of cut 0.005" styrene on top of the existing pilot to model this. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:12:01 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance Hi Ray, Ray wrote: >This is amazing 10,000 comedians out of work and we have Claus trying to >break into the business. Ray, if you are refering to the post below, it wasn't me. It was posted semi-anonymously by whoever ndbprr@att.net is. - Claus From: ndbprr@att.net To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk), mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance Date sent: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:19:21 +0000 How about buying the Cal Scale HO version and soaking it in water until it shrinks! :-) > EJ, Claus, > > Another option to the drop coupler is the fabricated early type > solid pilot. You may be able to use the MiniTrix pilot and add sheet > styrene similar to what the PRR did by taking plate metal to a standard > pilot.. There is a good photo in Many Faces of the K4. It looks easier > to do than a scratch built drop pilot. Just a thought...Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:18:39 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Micro-Trains couplers for Bowser N H21 and N5 Hello list, My dabbling in N scale continues (not to be construed as a slur on this or any other scale). I added MT couplers to my H21 and N5. I used the couplers that Bowser recommended on the boxes. I chose to buy the assembled MT couplers; I didn't trust my eyes to get the less expensive kits assembled correctly. The couplers for the H21 were a drop in fit; Bowser even predrilled the holes for the MT 00-90 screws. The N5 was just as easy; I was even able to use the original screw to mount the MT couplers. There's a huge difference in appearance vs the Rapido couplers. I don't have an MT coupler height gauge yet, so I don't know if my couplers were at the right height, but the two cars seemed to match each other (if nothing else...grin!). Kudos to Bowser for making these conversions simple and fun. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:12:01 -0800 Subject: [PRR] "parts list for the MDC 2-8-0 Hi E.J., >I have had no luck with MDC on the >cylinders.I will check out the Bachmann cylinders as suggested.Does anyone >have a parts list for the MDC 2-8-0 they could scan & e-mail me direct??? >THANKS to all again.E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com I own several of these locos, and I'm unaware of the existence of any "parts list for the MDC 2-8-0". - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:38:08 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] The T1 stops here - in Louisville In a message dated 1/15/03 3:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted) > From: "andrew harmantas" > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:12 -0500 > > A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. > > Any idea how far south the T1's ran? > > Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. > Yes - they went to Kentucky Street tower on the L&N (while being hostled on or off the South Wind at Louisville Union Station). L&N had its own steam assigned, Pacific #295 -- and engineer Harry "Grandpa" Eubanks to run her south on the "Main Stem". Remember, we're barely past the era when engines ran 100+ miles and were changed out. The T1 came all the way from Chicago (313 miles). And let's not get carried away by one T1 picture -- most of the PRR steam power photographed on the South Wind was one K4s, whether streamlined or not. Two additional thoughts that occur to me: 1. L&N power was conservative and generally much lighter than PRR steam. I doubt the L&N management was eager to risk their track structure and bridges on a monster like the T1. 2. The Pennsy was having enough trouble maintaining these duplexes online -- there were serious availability issues, and every productive engine hour was needed. Sending them off onto a foreign road would have been the height of lunacy. Further, Pennsy author Dan Cupper offers: Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines of that weight to run through. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:18:03 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "parts list for the MDC 2-8-0 Gents, You might have some luck by going to the MDC website. They list all parts for all their loco kits, as far as I know. At least they did when I needed some valve gear parts for the Pennsy atlantic I was working on. Same with their boxcab diesel. Maybe I better have another look to make sure they're still doing so. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:20:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower --part1_5b.34604829.2b595d34_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/03 1:10:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, johncoop@ix.netcom.com writes: > I don't think the tower is still standing. It has been replaced in function > by Phil and is where the airport line diverges. Phil realigns tracks 1 and > 4 from Arsenal to be 2 and 3 so Amtrak doesn't have to crossover. Hi John and others, Brill tower was still standing when I last rode the SEPTA R1 train to the airport in October. IIRC the machine was removed and installed in J tower at Strasburg. Regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_5b.34604829.2b595d34_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/03 1:10:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, johncoop@ix.netcom.com writes:

I don't think the tower is still standing.  It has been replaced in function by Phil and is where the airport line diverges.  Phil realigns tracks 1 and 4 from Arsenal to be 2 and 3 so Amtrak doesn't have to crossover.


Hi John and others,

Brill tower was still standing when I last rode the SEPTA R1 train to the airport in October.  IIRC the machine was removed and installed in J tower at Strasburg.

Regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_5b.34604829.2b595d34_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:17:13 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Once again the X38 Steve [steveh@dotstar.net] writes: > Greg, Elden and all-- > Drat--the dreaded "stand-in" disease! I counted the side panels but I sure missed the side panel construction. At least I found that the P2K car has the correct roof--Murphy Improved Solid Panel--for cars numbered 73700 - 76099. X38's in the other two number series had the PRR unique riveted steel roof in common with the 40 ft X37. Reference the Keystone > December 1981. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL We often think of this "riveted flat panel" as being a PRR only roof, but while I was living in Tehachapi (seven years plus back) I photo'd the rebuilding of several [20+] 50-foot PS-1 boxcars cars from the Naval Weapons Station at China Lake California that had this same roof. It was odd and I can't find the PS lot #'s for the cars, but they were there and they had a riveted flat panel roof, with PS-1 ends, a single 9-foot door, welded sides and built in 1953. Anyone care to do the research? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:32:50 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: X26 models was [PRR] Steam era modelers In a message Bruce Smith [smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] writes: Guys, There is evidence of three types of roofs used on the x26 prior to rebuilding and then after the rebuilds there was an additional two roofs used. Greg Martin > This message reminded me to say that the Tichy car has the original roof > and that all of the PRR cars received Hutchins roofs in the late 30's. > These are modeled in the new Westerfield "unibody" kits, making the > Westerfield the only correct model for a mid to late steam > era PRR car IIRC. > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:38:08 EST Subject: [PRR] The T1 stops here - in Louisville --part1_17b.14979155.2b595330_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/03 3:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted) > From: "andrew harmantas" > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:12 -0500 > > A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. > > Any idea how far south the T1's ran? > > Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. > Yes - they went to Kentucky Street tower on the L&N (while being hostled on or off the South Wind at Louisville Union Station). L&N had its own steam assigned, Pacific #295 -- and engineer Harry "Grandpa" Eubanks to run her south on the "Main Stem". Remember, we're barely past the era when engines ran 100+ miles and were changed out. The T1 came all the way from Chicago (313 miles). And let's not get carried away by one T1 picture -- most of the PRR steam power photographed on the South Wind was one K4s, whether streamlined or not. Two additional thoughts that occur to me: 1. L&N power was conservative and generally much lighter than PRR steam. I doubt the L&N management was eager to risk their track structure and bridges on a monster like the T1. 2. The Pennsy was having enough trouble maintaining these duplexes online -- there were serious availability issues, and every productive engine hour was needed. Sending them off onto a foreign road would have been the height of lunacy. Further, Pennsy author Dan Cupper offers: Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines of that weight to run through. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA. Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17b.14979155.2b595330_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/03 3:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted)
From: "andrew harmantas" <frisco482@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:12 -0500

A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville?  Really?  Now, that is a surprise.

Any idea how far south the T1's ran?

Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero.


Yes - they went to Kentucky Street tower on the L&N (while being hostled on or off the South Wind at Louisville Union Station).  L&N had its own steam assigned, Pacific #295 -- and engineer Harry "Grandpa" Eubanks to run her south on the "Main Stem".

Remember, we're barely past the era when engines ran 100+ miles and were changed out.  The T1 came all the way from Chicago (313 miles).  And let's not get carried away by one T1 picture -- most of the PRR steam power photographed on the South Wind was one K4s, whether streamlined or not.

Two additional thoughts that occur to me:
1.  L&N power was conservative and generally much lighter than PRR steam.  I doubt the L&N management was eager to risk their track structure and bridges on a monster like the T1.
2.  The Pennsy was having enough trouble maintaining these duplexes online -- there were serious availability issues, and every productive engine hour was needed.  Sending them off onto a foreign road would have been the height of lunacy.

Further, Pennsy author Dan Cupper offers:

Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was
the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940,
before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR
communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but
they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines
of that weight to run through.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, PA.

Hope this helps...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17b.14979155.2b595330_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:46:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: "parts list for the MDC 2-8-0 --part1_1c3.391c5d7.2b5946fd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THANKS CLAUS; I didn't know if the 2-8-0s came with a parts list or not.I don't own one of these locos as it is not belpaire equiped.THANKS AGAIN E.J. --part1_1c3.391c5d7.2b5946fd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   THANKS CLAUS;
      I didn't know if the 2-8-0s came with a parts list or not.I don't own one of these locos as it is not belpaire equiped.THANKS AGAIN   E.J. --part1_1c3.391c5d7.2b5946fd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:52:28 +0000 God forbid we not take this as seriously as the war on terrorism. If people are that intense about the PRR and modeling that they can't just delete an obvious bit of humor I'll juts take pity on them. Norm Bell ( the infamous at this point and anonymous ndbprr) > Hi Ray, > > Ray wrote: > > >This is amazing 10,000 comedians out of work and we have Claus trying to > >break into the business. > > Ray, if you are refering to the post below, it wasn't me. > > It was posted semi-anonymously by whoever ndbprr@att.net is. > > - Claus > > From: ndbprr@att.net > To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk), mittner@webtv.net (Gary > Mittner) > Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for assistance > Date sent: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:19:21 +0000 > > How about buying the Cal Scale HO version and soaking it in water until it > shrinks! :-) > EJ, Claus, > > Another option to the drop coupler is > the fabricated early type > solid pilot. You may be able to use the > MiniTrix pilot and add sheet > styrene similar to what the PRR did by > taking plate metal to a standard > pilot.. There is a good photo in Many > Faces of the K4. It looks easier > to do than a scratch built drop pilot. > Just a thought...Gary > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:43:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Modeling Washington Union Terminal in N Scale From: Jerry Britton "Trackside North of Washington" by Morning Sun Books really brought to my attention the variety of motive power and color schemes present at Washington Union Terminal. Wow, what a place to model! I've seen a few layouts that have included WUT (Charlie Grant, Charlie Corangi) in HO scale. If there are any N scalers out there who have considered it, this may be your year to move on it. Life Like has made some announcements that bode well for such a project... In October, EMD SW8/900 switchers will include Baltimore & Ohio (as well as Electro Motive Division (demonstrator)). In November, EMD E8's will include Atlantic Coast Line, Baltimore & Ohio (Capitol scheme), and Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac. These releases will make a pretty good start for a WUT!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:47:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Painting >Grit blast. Are there different grits/pressures to be used for "making >tooth", >stripping or cleaning ? If so, which are the best for the various purposes ? >Thank you. - HANK Definitely! I use aluminum oxide grit (Very very fine) from North Coast. Some folks use baking soda. The glass beads will not work as they polish the surface (but they are nice for restoring the polish to brass for display, naked as it were). For stripping and metal surface prep I usually blast around 50-80 psi, and then turn it down to 30 psoi or less for "erasing" (that is, removing small amounts of paint, like lettering, or excess weathering) or plastic/resin surface prep. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:54:38 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Nocturne and Eventide Was it ever resolved if either of these 16 duplex single room cars ever appeared in the paint/lettering scheme as provided by AHM, i.e, Tuscan Red sides, black roof, with "Pennsylvania" across the letterboard? Any photographic evidence? Also, did AHM or it's successors ever make a drop-in interior for this car style? Thanks. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:39:45 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: [PCL] "I did it! I did it!" Passenger Car photo This just arrived on the Passenger car list. If you like PRR passenger cars, you gadda keep this bookmark, and pass him more links! Regards, Andy Miller -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PCL] "I did it! I did it!" Passenger Car photo indexes Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:22:46 -0500 From: "Jerry M. LaBoda" Reply-To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com To: N-scaleVarnish@yahoogroups.com, PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com,passconsist@yahoogroups.com, domecars@yahoogroups.com,doodlebugs@yahoogroups.com, commutermodeler@yahoogroups.com,Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com Okay, I'll admit it... "I did it!!!" And I think you all are going to like it!!! I have finished surfing the world wide web for passenger car photos (North American only... sorry) and have compiled everything so far that I have found into indexes that I have posted to my website. The link below will take you to the photo index page, where you will find all six of the indexes completed so far, four for regular passenger car types (broken down by roadname), one for business car types and one for doodlebug/rail motor cars. I hope you will find the indexes to be of use. There are some lines that are not represented on the web and I hope that if anyone can help change this I would appreciate it. And if you know of any links that I have missed please let me know. The address for the photo indexes is: If you find these inedexes to be of use, please, pass the word along to someone else. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:04:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Futura Lettering Afternoon gang, Does anyone here possess or know if the PRRT&HS archives posses a Futura tracing...not a tracing of a loco or car in Futura, but the actual tracing of the futura lettering? I need one for a project that I am helping with. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bell, Kurt" Subject: [PRR] PRR Air Brake Instruction Car Restoration Project Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:40:08 -0500 The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is commencing restoration of former Pennsylvania Railroad Air-Brake Instruction Car No. 492445. Built in 1910 by Altoona Car Shops as class M70 Railway Post Office car No. 6517, it was rebuilt to air-brake instruction car No. 492445 in 1928. The car was acquired by the Wilmington and Western RR in the mid-1960s and donated by Red Clay Valley Equipment and Leasing Corp., to the Railroad Museum of PA in 1977. The car will undergo a three- year, museum-quality restoration to its 1940s/1950s appearance using a $300,000 "Save America's Treasures" grant. All of the air brake machinery inside the car will be made operable and it will be featured as part of a planned interpretive exhibition on mid-20th century railroad technology on the PRR. In order to restore the car accurately, the Curatorial and Restoration Departments are conducting research on the heritage of this historic car and are seeking any photographs, both interior and exterior, as well as any maintenance records and drawings that might aid in the restoration. Remembrances, stories or contacts of persons who worked on this car or received classroom instruction in air brake operation in this or similar cars are invited to share their stories with the staff. The staff will gladly pay for any fees regarding duplication, scanning or copying of printed or graphic materials. For more information, please contact Kurt Bell, Museum Archivist, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, at c-kbell@state.pa.us or call (717) 687-8628 x3010. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:47:51 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Buffalo Information On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 AHARTPRR137@aol.com wrote: > An excellent book titled "Western New York and Pennsylvania Railway" was > written and published by Paul V. Pietrak, Joseph G. Streamer, and James A. > Van Brocklin in 2000. The soft cover book has over 200 pages of text, many > photos, maps and charts on this portion of the PRR which had lines in > northwestern PA and western NY. It covers the history, motive power, Thanks for the recommendation. I picked up a used copy (autographed by all 3 authors, as it happens) and it's very interesting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:26:11 -0800 Clearly, I'm wrong then. Thanks for pointing this out. That's a cool thing to be wrong about. John -----Original Message----- From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Brill tower was still standing when I last rode the SEPTA R1 train to the airport in October. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:07:26 -0900 You can see it pretty well from the "60th Street" crossover, (i think it's called that), where the Airport line diverges from the NEC. Looks pretty bad. All of the towers, save ZOO and Holmes look bad in the Philly Terminal Division. Sad. A number still stand. Brill, Arsenal, Zoo, Bryn Mawr, Paoli, North Philly,Shore,Holmes, Grundy(?). -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower > In a message dated 1/17/03 1:10:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, > johncoop@ix.netcom.com writes: > > > I don't think the tower is still standing. It has been replaced in function > > by Phil and is where the airport line diverges. Phil realigns tracks 1 and > > 4 from Arsenal to be 2 and 3 so Amtrak doesn't have to crossover. > > Hi John and others, > > Brill tower was still standing when I last rode the SEPTA R1 train to the > airport in October. IIRC the machine was removed and installed in J tower at > Strasburg. > > Regards, > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The T1 stops here - in Louisville Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:50:41 +0000 I was very surprised that the PRR would want to run them all the way to Florida. Didn't the rr have to install special water columns to get over the shrouding on the tehders? Where would you get repair parts from if it needed them offline? Offhand didn't all roads keep their steam power on their lines with no run throughs except for trials? Norm Bell > In a message dated 1/15/03 3:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted) > > From: "andrew harmantas" > > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:12 -0500 > > > > A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. > > > > Any idea how far south the T1's ran? > > > > Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. > > > > Yes - they went to Kentucky Street tower on the L&N (while being hostled on > or off the South Wind at Louisville Union Station). L&N had its own steam > assigned, Pacific #295 -- and engineer Harry "Grandpa" Eubanks to run her > south on the "Main Stem". > > Remember, we're barely past the era when engines ran 100+ miles and were > changed out. The T1 came all the way from Chicago (313 miles). And let's > not get carried away by one T1 picture -- most of the PRR steam power > photographed on the South Wind was one K4s, whether streamlined or not. > > Two additional thoughts that occur to me: > 1. L&N power was conservative and generally much lighter than PRR steam. I > doubt the L&N management was eager to risk their track structure and bridges > on a monster like the T1. > 2. The Pennsy was having enough trouble maintaining these duplexes online -- > there were serious availability issues, and every productive engine hour was > needed. Sending them off onto a foreign road would have been the height of > lunacy. > > Further, Pennsy author Dan Cupper offers: > > Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was > the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, > before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR > communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but > they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines > of that weight to run through. > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, PA. > > Hope this helps... > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Nocturne and Eventide Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:06:37 -0500 The answer is a definite yes to the paint scheme, but the lettering is still in question. PRR Color guide to Freight and Passanger Equipment Vol. 3 (Ian Fisher, Morning Sun) has picture of both sides of Nocturne in Tuscan Red with black roof and what appears to be black underbody and trucks. The gold lettering consists of "PULLMAN" on the letterboard and "NOCTURNE" centered below the windows. The photos were taken in 1947 so it is possible that the lettering was changed to either the AHM scheme or to "PENNSYLVANIA" with small "PULLMAN"s at each end on the letterboard. Anybody know about the lettering, or later paint schemes. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Di Orio" To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:54 PM Subject: [PRR] Nocturne and Eventide > Was it ever resolved if either of these 16 duplex > single room cars ever appeared in the paint/lettering > scheme as provided by AHM, i.e, Tuscan Red sides, > black roof, with "Pennsylvania" across the > letterboard? Any photographic evidence? Also, did AHM > or it's successors ever make a drop-in interior for > this car style? Thanks. Ron > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] The T1 stops here - in Louisville Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:24:16 -0500 Norm, The "competition" (The Alphabet Route) would run CNJ, RDG, or WM steam locomotives through between Hagerstown, MD, and Jersey City, NJ, so, yes, some railroads did run stream power through interchange points. B&O steam also ran through between Baltimore and Jersey City on passenger trains via B&O-RDG-CNJ. At the same time that Baldwin was proposing the T1, BLW also proposed building a 4-4-4-4 duplex for the Atlantic Coast Line as well. ACL opted for 4-8-4's instead, but never used them for passenger service. (Well, almost never). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The T1 stops here - in Louisville > I was very surprised that the PRR would want to run them all the way to > Florida. Didn't the rr have to install special water columns to get over the > shrouding on the tehders? Where would you get repair parts from if it needed > them offline? Offhand didn't all roads keep their steam power on their lines > with no run throughs except for trials? Norm Bell > > In a message dated 1/15/03 3:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind again (he ranted) > > > From: "andrew harmantas" > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:45:12 -0500 > > > > > > A Pennsy T1 photographed in Louisville? Really? Now, that is a surprise. > > > > > > Any idea how far south the T1's ran? > > > > > > Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. > > > > > > > Yes - they went to Kentucky Street tower on the L&N (while being hostled on > > or off the South Wind at Louisville Union Station). L&N had its own steam > > assigned, Pacific #295 -- and engineer Harry "Grandpa" Eubanks to run her > > south on the "Main Stem". > > > > Remember, we're barely past the era when engines ran 100+ miles and were > > changed out. The T1 came all the way from Chicago (313 miles). And let's > > not get carried away by one T1 picture -- most of the PRR steam power > > photographed on the South Wind was one K4s, whether streamlined or not. > > > > Two additional thoughts that occur to me: > > 1. L&N power was conservative and generally much lighter than PRR steam. I > > doubt the L&N management was eager to risk their track structure and bridges > > on a monster like the T1. > > 2. The Pennsy was having enough trouble maintaining these duplexes online -- > > there were serious availability issues, and every productive engine hour was > > needed. Sending them off onto a foreign road would have been the height of > > lunacy. > > > > Further, Pennsy author Dan Cupper offers: > > > > Had the PRR had its way, T1s would have run through to Miami. That was > > the original service for which they were intended (this is in 1940, > > before they were built). Correspondence on file at Hagley shows that PRR > > communicated its intention and desire to its southern connections, but > > they wrote back to say that bridge limitations would not permit engines > > of that weight to run through. > > > > Dan Cupper > > Harrisburg, PA. > > > > Hope this helps... > > > > Rick Tipton > > Louisville KY > > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:46:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Passenger car photo index The index by Jerry M. LaBoda referred to in the recent post here, a monumental work, is useful for our recent discussions about T&P/MOP baggage/express/mail storage cars. Several good shots. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:47:53 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car photo index --0-1521864150-1042919273=:60261 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Many thanks to Jerry for compiling this list. Sorry that I missed the discussions on T&P/MOP baggage/express/mail storage cars but I just recently subscribed. Will have to check out thread in archives. For what it's worth, I grew up in Burgettstown, PA, on the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Mingo Junction, literally a stone's throw from the main line. I watched trains through my living room and bedroom windows. After many years, am back in the same house, but the raillroad is gone. I definitely remember seeing the double door 60' cars like MOPAC 149 going by--I especially remember them because they were unusual. Need to come up with a model of one for my Penn-Texas. Bobspf@aol.com wrote:The index by Jerry M. LaBoda referred to in the recent post here, a monumental work, is useful for our recent discussions about T&P/MOP baggage/express/mail storage cars. Several good shots. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1521864150-1042919273=:60261 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Many thanks to Jerry for compiling this list.  Sorry that I missed the discussions on T&P/MOP baggage/express/mail storage cars but I just recently subscribed.  Will have to check out thread in archives.  For what it's worth, I grew up in Burgettstown, PA, on the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Mingo Junction, literally a stone's throw from the main line.  I watched trains through my living room and bedroom windows.  After many years, am back in the same house, but the raillroad is gone.  I definitely remember seeing the double door 60' cars like MOPAC 149 going by--I especially remember them because they were unusual.  Need to come up with a model of one for my Penn-Texas.    

 Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

The index by Jerry M. LaBoda referred to in the recent post here, a
monumental work, is useful for our recent discussions about T&P/MOP
baggage/express/mail storage cars. Several good shots.

Bob Zoeller

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1521864150-1042919273=:60261-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] assistance in locating used loco Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:03:53 -0500 Friends: I'm trying to find a used Bachman 2-10-4 locomotive. I want to turn it into a SF 5011 series loco for my son's birthday present. (I know, its a shame, but he just insists on modeling the ATSF in California ca 1951. BTW, the GG1 I gave him looks pretty darn good in silver with the warbonnet scheme! NB: RL did NOT design this scheme.) Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Renovo/Southport Coaling Tower Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:12:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2BF36.52622C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Hasting's book "Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad" on page 86 & = 87, it appears that the coaling towers at Renovo and Southport were = identical. (The photo on page 87 is mislabled) Does anyone have drawings = of either of them or have an idea where I could obtain them? Thanks. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2BF36.52622C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In Hasting's book "Portrait of the = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad" on page 86 & 87, it appears that the coaling towers at = Renovo and=20 Southport were identical. (The photo on page 87 is mislabled) Does = anyone have=20 drawings of either of them or have an idea where I could obtain them?=20 Thanks.
 
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS #6703
The Elmira Branch=20 1956-57
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2BF36.52622C60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:45:43 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] H21 and H25 hopper question As most of y'ns know, the hoppers on most railroads' 4-bay hopper cars were arranged so that all hoppers dumped toward the center of the car, thus: |_________________| OO V/ V/ \V \V OO PRR did it differently: |_________________| OO V/ \V V/ \V OO I have seen a photo of a Montour car with its hoppers arranged thus, but in general the arrangement seems to be "a PRR thing". My question (of some years standing) is why did they do it that way? I've speculated that when the 4-bay cars were introduced, the majority of coal customers may have had rather short dump pits such that two hoppers could be dumped but that... Perhaps pictures will help. Two bay hopper dump pit: V\ /V V\ Open door V/ Closed door |---| Four bay car on same pit: V\ V\ \V \V |---| What I'm trying to suggest is that with that arrangement, coal from the one hopper might spill onto and pile up on the ties beyond the end of the pit. PRR-style 4-bay on same pit: V\ /V V/ \V |---| That is, one pair of hoppers would "fit" like a 2-bay car, when that half of the car was emptied, moving less than 1/2 a car length would allow the other half to be dumped. Has anyone seen anything in the trade press of the time or in PRR correspondence which would clarify why the PRR choose that arrangement of hoppers? Inquiring minds and all that. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:47:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Gem (HO) G-5 for sale Stopped doing HO years ago - while putting stuff away after Christmas I found a Gem (fuzzy box) brass G-5 from 1968-70, This is the one that got left behind when I did the last train show. It is basically brand new - never been run - no tarnish broken or missing parts, includes original box and all those certificates with colorfull Japanese rubber stamped inspection stations. If interest - contact me off list. Dick Ross, Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:49:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins --part1_1c2.3ab532e.2b5b886f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Is the cabin car on the right the Focal Orange that was discussed a few weeks back? http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_2_1966.jpg For the Chicago area members on the PRR List the following will be of interest: http://algomacentral.railfan.net/chicago_area.htm Evan Leisey --part1_1c2.3ab532e.2b5b886f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  Is the cabin car on the right the Focal Orange that was discussed a few weeks back?

  http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_2_1966.jpg

   For the Chicago area members on the PRR List the following will be of interest:

  http://algomacentral.railfan.net/chicago_area.htm

Evan Leisey
 --part1_1c2.3ab532e.2b5b886f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:20:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2BFCE.59089CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, That's the dirtiest "focal orange" cabin car I've seen shots of. The key = is the window frames. The PRR cabin cars that were painted focal orange = were rebuilds and received new, sealed windows, except the side windows = on the cupola, which were also new but slid open. Note the new, rounded = corners on the windows on this car. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins PRR List, Is the cabin car on the right the Focal Orange that was discussed a = few weeks back? http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_2_1966.jpg For the Chicago area members on the PRR List the following will be = of interest: http://algomacentral.railfan.net/chicago_area.htm Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2BFCE.59089CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
That's the dirtiest "focal orange" cabin car I've = seen shots=20 of. The key is the window frames. The PRR cabin cars that were painted = focal=20 orange were rebuilds and received new, sealed windows, except the side = windows=20 on the cupola, which were also new but slid open. Note the new, rounded = corners=20 on the windows on this car.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, January 18, = 2003 11:49=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange = Cabins

PRR List,

  Is the cabin car on the = right the=20 Focal Orange that was discussed a few weeks back?

  http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_2_1966.jpg
  =20 For the Chicago area members on the PRR List the following will be of=20 interest:

  http://algomac= entral.railfan.net/chicago_area.htm

Evan=20 Leisey
 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2BFCE.59089CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:11:16 -0500 From: Ike Subject: Re: [PRR] Renovo/Southport Coaling Tower > Mike Morrow wrote: > > In Hasting's book "Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad" on page 86 & > 87, it appears that the coaling towers at Renovo and Southport were > identical. (The photo on page 87 is mislabled) Does anyone have > drawings of either of them or have an idea where I could obtain them? > Thanks. Along this line- Is the tower at Renovo still standing? It was 3 years ago... -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:36:08 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 and H25 hopper question Hi Bob, All, Bob. I can't quote Chapter and Verse but, with that caveat, I recall reading somewhere that they, somehow, gained capacity in the car by the change. I do think that your theorem does make some sense whether this was an actual consideration or not. I think the hopper gurus will have to clue us in on this one? Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:39:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange - Thanks. --part1_f6.276fddc2.2b5cbb4a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for making the positive ID on the focal orange cabin car. I had never seen one of these back in the good old days. Evan Leisey --part1_f6.276fddc2.2b5cbb4a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Thanks for making the positive ID on the focal orange cabin car.  I had never seen one of these back in the good old days.

Evan Leisey --part1_f6.276fddc2.2b5cbb4a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: M16872@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:51:59 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR F-3 Mogul Pictures and Information --part1_14d.1a833a5c.2b5c4dcf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I trying to find pictures, drawings, or any other information in the PRR F-3c Mogul. I am currently building a live stream version in 1.6 scale. It seems that there are very few pictures on this little engine. Could anyone share with me some sources on where to find good information for my project. Thanks, Brian --part1_14d.1a833a5c.2b5c4dcf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I trying to find pictures, drawings, or any other information in the PRR F-3c Mogul.  I am currently building a live stream version in 1.6 scale. It seems that there are very few pictures on this little engine. Could anyone share with me some sources on where to find good information for my project.

Thanks,
Brian --part1_14d.1a833a5c.2b5c4dcf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:48:33 +1100 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Change of e-mail sddress Hi all, Sorry if this bursts in without any meaning to you, but I thought that this would be the best way to let everyone know that e-mail address:es pennsy@alphalink.com.au & pennsy@keystone.alphalink.au will be off the air after April 2003. However, pennsy@optushome.com.au will remain operational As dollars are a little tight I had to rationalise my internet accounts and Alphalink no longer meets my needs. This is no slight on Alpalink, I think they are an excellent ISP. Its just that with my cable-internet connection running so much faster than dailup I have to make a choice between the two and the speed of cable wins! If this message means nothing to you then please accept my apologies and ignore it. I have broadcast this to all who are in my address book for whatever reason. Thanks, Mick Molloy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:37:48 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] The T1 in Cincinnati In a message dated 1/17/03 10:18:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chapbob writes: > Rick -- > Brings back a Cincinnati memory. When I was quite small, Dad stopped at the > Pennsy tracks in Terrace Park (outlying Cincy suburb) to watch the > late-afternoon Iron City Express come through. We had seen it before, and > it always had what my young eyes considered to be a standard steam engine > on the point. > > This day, what was on it was huge, and what I remember the most was the > noise it made -- not the rhythmic chug chug chug of the pistons, but a loud > and steady hissing sound as it passed. I asked Dad what type of locomotive > it was, but he said, "I don't know -- I have never seen one like this > before!" > > I much later concluded that it must have been a T-1, and at various Pennsy > conventions began asking the experts about whether T-1's ever made it to > Cincy. The unanimous answer was "NO -- they couldn't have. There was a > sharp curve on the line near Columbus that the T-1's couldn't navigate." So > it was with great joy that I discovered the real truth from one of Gib > Yungblut's CUT presentations, where in all its glory, there was a T-1 > pulling out of town with CUT clearly in the background! > > Final score -- Memory - 1, Pennsy Experts - 0! > > Regards, > Bob Chapman > Gotta love it. People used to tell me that T1's were forbidden from Cincinnati because Pendleton's old turntable was too short -- ignoring the fact that after 1933, PRR passenger power never went close to Pendleton and was serviced at CUT's roundhouse (turntable 125'). This is exactly how superstitions get started -- and why the average railroader thinks the average railfan is a raving lunatic. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 05:08:49 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F-3 Mogul Pictures and Information Brian, list, PRR Moguls have received relatively little attention over the years; there weren't many and they were retired early. Plans of the F3c are on page 44 of the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1, Steam Locomotives. There's one good picture accompanying the plans. Also, check out page 43 of Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T. It has shots of F3c 2024 (mistakenly classed as an F1a in the caption) and F3c 99. Anyone else know of more pictures? Pennsy Power 3 (page 81) lists the following stats for the F3c class: 20 x 28 cylinders, 62" drivers, 205 pounds steam pressure, an engine weight of 165,900 pounds, a tractive force of 31,477 pounds, and a grate area of 47 square feet. Doug --- M16872@aol.com wrote, in part: > I trying to find pictures, drawings, or any other > information in the PRR F-3c Mogul. It seems > that there are very few pictures on this little > engine. > Thanks, > Brian > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:36:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras From: Jerry Britton Aside from passenger trains and scheduled freight trains (which have symbols), a few months ago we discussed mineral trains (coal, coke, ore, empties) running as "extras". The April 1957 issue of TRAINS has an article on the PRR crossing the mountains and it has a graph showing where all the trains were at a specific moment. Numerous "extras" are shown. When a train ran as an extra, who/what designated its number, such as "Ore Extra 601"? The odd/even would be determined by the direction. Did trains to/from specific branches get assigned to particular numerical ranges? For instance, would an extra coming off the Irvona Secondary be in the 6xx range? Is this info documented anywhere? Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:33:02 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Re: Aside from passenger trains and scheduled freight trains (which have symbols), a few months ago we discussed mineral trains (coal, coke, ore, empties) running as "extras". Technically speaking the symbol freight trains were not scheduled, they were part of the "Arranged Freight Service," and ran as extras not on a schedule as the passenger trains did. For operational purposes (dispatching and train tracking) all extra trains (arranged or not) were identified by the number of the lead engine and the direction in which they were headed, e.g. "Extra 1904 West." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:39:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/03 12:33 PM, Al Buchan (abbuchan1@comcast.net) wrote: >> Re: Aside from passenger trains and scheduled freight trains (which have >> symbols), a few months ago we discussed mineral trains (coal, coke, ore, >> empties) running as "extras". > > Technically speaking the symbol freight trains were not scheduled, they > were part of the "Arranged Freight Service," and ran as extras not on a > schedule as the passenger trains did. Very good point, Al. I used the term loosely and should not have. The "Arranged Freight Schedule" provides "target" times, but maintaining the connections are the underlying priority. > For operational purposes > (dispatching and train tracking) all extra trains (arranged or not) were > identified by the number of the lead engine and the direction in which > they were headed, e.g. "Extra 1904 West." > So train BNY-16 might be "Extra 1904 East" on the radio/dispatcher sheet/tower sheet rather than "BNY-16"? If so, was the "BNY-16" symbol used over the air at all? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:25:24 -0800 Many evening spent at MILES (should have been better spent at the Pattee) seems to have etched into the recesses of my mind that the operator responded on the radio to the locomotive and to the desk in Altoona the symbol of the train and the lead locomotive number. I vividly recall AN and AS for the Altoona-Nothumberland train and AS for the Altoona to Southport coal trains. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Al Buchan" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras > On 1/20/03 12:33 PM, Al Buchan (abbuchan1@comcast.net) wrote: > > >> Re: Aside from passenger trains and scheduled freight trains (which have > >> symbols), a few months ago we discussed mineral trains (coal, coke, ore, > >> empties) running as "extras". > > > > Technically speaking the symbol freight trains were not scheduled, they > > were part of the "Arranged Freight Service," and ran as extras not on a > > schedule as the passenger trains did. > > Very good point, Al. I used the term loosely and should not have. The > "Arranged Freight Schedule" provides "target" times, but maintaining the > connections are the underlying priority. > > > For operational purposes > > (dispatching and train tracking) all extra trains (arranged or not) were > > identified by the number of the lead engine and the direction in which > > they were headed, e.g. "Extra 1904 West." > > > So train BNY-16 might be "Extra 1904 East" on the radio/dispatcher > sheet/tower sheet rather than "BNY-16"? > > If so, was the "BNY-16" symbol used over the air at all? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:30:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/03 1:25 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > Many evening spent at MILES (should have been better spent at the Pattee) Are you a PSU alum? > seems to have etched into the recesses of my mind that the operator > responded on the radio to the locomotive and to the desk in Altoona the > symbol of the train and the lead locomotive number. I vividly recall AN and > AS for the Altoona-Nothumberland train and AS for the Altoona to Southport > coal trains. > Seems like they must have at least "opened" their conversation with the train symbol and, as you said, the lead loco number. I just looked over a Dispatcher Sheet from the Philadelphia Division and a Tower Sheet from LEMO and they reflect both the symbol and the loco numbers for "arranged freight trains". All this is for my model railroad operations, by the way. And Al answered my biggest question, which was the numbering for the true (non-arranged) extras, which just went by the loco number. I feel comfortable with using "modelers license" and using the symbol on "arranged trains" so the dispatcher can better track them. A symbol ran a specific route, regardless of loco number, and a dispatcher will memorize these over time. All four legs of my Rockville Bridge will be active, so I'll have many different routes. Thanks, all! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:35:16 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Jerry, Re: So train BNY-16 might be "Extra 1904 East" on the radio/dispatcher sheet/tower sheet rather than "BNY-16"? If so, was the "BNY-16" symbol used over the air at all? This is a good question, with a not straight forward answer. Although the symbol freights were run as extras, not all of them were required to run on train orders as an extra train. Rule 95 states "Regular trains must be designated by both schedule and engine number. They will be identified by engine number." The definition of "Regular Train" is "A train authorized by a time-table schedule," to wit a passenger train (or mail, express, etc.) Therefore, the passenger trains, as I remember, would be reported by block operators using the train number and engine number, although I seem to remember that only train numbers were also used. Rule S-97 states, "Extra trains must not be run without train orders." However, a note says that this will not apply where rule 261 is in effect. This means on a single track line where 261 is in effect an extra train may run w/o train orders and on signal indication only. Rule D-97 states, "Extra trains may be run without train orders." A note explains, that in multiple track territory signal permission of the operator will be the authority for a train to run as an extra, therefore train orders would not be required. As I recall the arranged freights that ran with orders (per S-97) were identified and reported as extras with the engine number, e.g., "Extra 1904 East." While the arranged freights that ran w/o orders were identified and reported by their symbol. What I can't recall is how a non-arranged train (coal, ore, gondola, or whatever extra) was identified and reported when train orders were not required. I would imagine it would have been by extra and engine number, however, that's speculation at this point. I would welcome additional comments and clarifications on this interesting subject. Nobody said railroading was straight forward and easy. ;^) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Wanted & For-Sale Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:49:29 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0B4.AA051020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" WANTED: I am looking for copies of "High Line" Vol 14, all numbers. Please let me know if you have a copy to sell. FOR-SALE: HO Brass Key 2-10-0 I1s. Unpainted, early run version. Good condition, no tarnish. Runs well, recentely adjusted and lubed. Asking $500 or best offer. Please contact me off-list. Thanks, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0B4.AA051020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Wanted & For-Sale

WANTED:

I am looking for copies of "High Line" Vol 14, all numbers.
Please let me know if you have a copy to sell.


FOR-SALE:

HO Brass Key 2-10-0 I1s.  Unpainted, early run version.
Good condition, no tarnish.
Runs well, recentely adjusted and lubed.
Asking $500 or best offer.

Please contact me off-list.

Thanks,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0B4.AA051020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:52:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Swift Packing Plant at Harrisburg From: Jerry Britton A few weeks ago we had a conversation about a Swift meat packing plant at Harrisburg. One of the outstanding questions was where it was located. I've taken a valuation map and outlined its location in red... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/temp/harrisburg_swift.jpeg The online version won't provide details. That's just the nature of what I can reasonable show. However, it does the job of showing you where the plant was. In looking at the image... * Railroad west is to the left and railroad east is to the right. * Vertically on the right edge is the State Street bridge, with HARRIS tower and the passenger station just beyond. * Vertically at left is Herr Street underpass. Just beyond would be the beginning of the passenger locomotive facility. * The greater area in question is now a power substation and parking garage. * The Swift plant (Swift & Co. No. 1) was served by only one track and this track doubled as a switchback for other sidings. The other businesses were United Ice & Coal No. 1, American Rag & Metal Co., and Simon Michlovitz. (Anyone know what the last one was?) * Between the Swift plant and the mains was "North Street delivery" which featured a gantry crane. Based on the val map, it does not appear that there were any stock pens at this location. Perhaps basic butchering was done elsewhere and then final product was prepared here? BTW: The green lines indicate tracks to be retired (circa 1962). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:59:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] For Sale/Wanted Posts From: Jerry Britton Reminder: Per the list rules that have been in place for years, please limit Wanted and For Sale posts to the 1st and 15th days of the month. This hasn't been a problem for some time, but there's been a bit of a deluge this month. Thanks! P.S.: http://lists.dsop.com/prr/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:04:43 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0B6.CAB90860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Guys, you just partially explained a long-standing question for me! I have been thoroughly confused by the statement that "On the Mon Division/Branch, all freight trains ran as extras", despite their appearance on arranged freight trains schedules. Even to the point of having "times" stated in the schedule over which the train was generally (?) intended to operate. My further question would be that if there were two "symbol freights" designated, for example MA-50 and MA-52, which had stated times leaving "point X" only a half hour apart, over the same route, and arriving same, with set-outs in between, some of which appear to have been substantial, was the time of departure for the later train only a "place holder" for the train to keep someone from scheduling other trains immediately after the earlier train, and that the later would just depart and arrive when folks felt it was appropriate, or is there some other consideration? The reason for my confusion is that, in constructing a string diagram to figure how how these trains would have been run over a two-track/northbound/southbound/busy branch, there are times and locations that the schedule would have placed trains in direct conflict with one another. That is, if they held to the times stated, there would have been trains trying to enter some of the smaller intermediate yards to do set-outs or pick-ups, at the same time, from the same direction, or perhaps only minutes apart! When if they placed them farther apart in time, would have had no problem. Given that, on the Mon, they were running most of their trains at night (perhaps to avoid interference with the commuter trains during daylight?), they had some very close trains running that would have run right up against one another, arriving within minutes at a poorly-lit yard in the middle of nowhere at 3 a.m. in the morning. Sounds difficult! Did fights ever ensue over this sort of thing? And, unless I am reading incorrectly, are you saying that a train might run as MA-52 9803 EAST, as a symbol freight with lead engine number 9803? And that a gon extra not appearing on the arranged freight train service would run simply as 9803 EAST or Extra 9803 EAST? Thanks so much for this interesting topic! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:35 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0B6.CAB90860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as = Extras

Guys, you just partially explained a long-standing = question for me!  I have been thoroughly confused by the statement = that "On the Mon Division/Branch, all freight trains ran as = extras", despite their appearance on arranged freight trains = schedules.  Even to the point of having "times" stated = in the schedule over which the train was generally (?) intended to = operate.

My further question would be that if there were two = "symbol freights" designated, for example MA-50 and MA-52, = which had stated times leaving "point X" only a half hour = apart, over the same route, and arriving same, with set-outs in = between, some of which appear to have been substantial, was the time of = departure for the later train only a "place holder" for the = train to keep someone from scheduling other trains immediately after = the earlier train, and that the later would just depart and arrive when = folks felt it was appropriate, or is there some other = consideration?

The reason for my confusion is that, in constructing = a string diagram to figure how how these trains would have been run = over a two-track/northbound/southbound/busy branch, there are times and = locations that the schedule would have placed trains in direct conflict = with one another.  That is, if they held to the times stated, = there would have been trains trying to enter some of the smaller = intermediate yards to do set-outs or pick-ups, at the same time, from = the same direction, or perhaps only minutes apart!  When if they = placed them farther apart in time, would have had no problem.  = Given that, on the Mon, they were running most of their trains at night = (perhaps to avoid interference with the commuter trains during = daylight?), they had some very close trains running that would have run = right up against one another, arriving within minutes at a poorly-lit = yard in the middle of nowhere at 3 a.m. in the morning.  Sounds = difficult!  Did fights ever ensue over this sort of = thing?

And, unless I am reading incorrectly, are you saying = that a train might run as MA-52 9803 EAST, as a symbol freight with = lead engine number 9803?  And that a gon extra not appearing on = the arranged freight train service would run simply as 9803 EAST or = Extra 9803 EAST?

Thanks so much for this interesting topic!
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net]<= /FONT>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:35 AM
To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'PRR-Talk LIST'
Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains = Running as Extras

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0B6.CAB90860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:16:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/03 2:04 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > And, unless I am reading incorrectly, are you saying that a train might run as > MA-52 9803 EAST, as a symbol freight with lead engine number 9803? And that a > gon extra not appearing on the arranged freight train service would run simply > as 9803 EAST or Extra 9803 EAST? > That's the conclusion I am coming to. It may not be 100% accurate, but for my modeling purposes would work well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:40:48 -0500 > > And, unless I am reading incorrectly, are you saying that a train might run as > > MA-52 9803 EAST, as a symbol freight with lead engine number 9803? And that a > > gon extra not appearing on the arranged freight train service would run simply > > as 9803 EAST or Extra 9803 EAST? > > > That's the conclusion I am coming to. It may not be 100% accurate, but for > my modeling purposes would work well. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Hi guys, I'm glad this topic came up as I am putting together my operating plan but all this begs a few questions... Who does the actual assignment of power to a particular train? How does the Dispatcher find out what locomotive was assigned? Presumably this is a communication between the yardmaster and the dispatcher, right? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Mail List Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:45:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C2C092.A0D88DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trains when they originated to run all started from East to West and = North to South so East to West would start with an ODD Number same as = North to South and Returning they would have Even Numbers. Returning ie = south to North. leeprr switchkey ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C2C092.A0D88DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Trains when they originated to run all started from East to West = and North=20 to South so East to West would start with an ODD Number same as North to = South=20 and Returning they would have Even Numbers. Returning ie south to = North.
 
 
leeprr switchkey
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C2C092.A0D88DA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:00:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/03 2:40 PM, Dave Vinci (vinci4@net-link.net) wrote: > I'm glad this topic came up as I am putting together my operating plan but > all this begs a few questions... If anyone is interested in my slate of planned trains, see... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/scenario1.html The grid shows known timetable times (ETT) at various points. Other times will be plotted based on trial and error. The grid also shows where trains appear on the layout (from staging) and leave the layout (staging). Clicking on the train symbol brings up the Train Detail, which provides block information for freights or consist information for a passenger train. As you will see, the Extras are not labeled yet, pending the outcome of this discussion. > > Who does the actual assignment of power to a particular train? The Hostler? I know specific lashups were typically assigned to specific trains, based on their weight. > How does the Dispatcher find out what locomotive was assigned? Presumably > this is a communication between the yardmaster and the dispatcher, right? > "Probably" the same way they do it now. When the train calls the dispatcher to tell him/her they are ready to leave the yard, the dispatcher interviews them and gets: all loco numbers, number of loaded cars, number of empty cars, tonnage of trains. Dispatcher sometimes asks for how much fuel is in each unit and makes a determination as to whether they should go through the online fueling racks (present day, Harrisburg). The dispatcher knows, based on the grades of the route, whether or not the motive power has the pulling/stopping power for the tonnage in question. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:15:54 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/20/03 PRR X-23 and X-26 boxcars Does anyone have any data to indicate how long these two single sheathed wooden boxcars remained in revenue service? My Railway Equipment Register is Penn Central era and of course had no 23's or 26's in service. I model in an early 50's time frame and wanted to know if I could get away with using these classes in revenue service. Thank you, Tom Rimer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:36:55 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_PVG2wJTctP2BSjyGoCQGDA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Elden, et al., Re: "...are you saying that a train might run as MA-52 9803 EAST, as a symbol freight with lead engine number 9803? And that a gon extra not appearing on the arranged freight train service would run simply as 9803 EAST or Extra 9803 EAST?" Basically yes, except obviously the gon extra would run as "Extra 9803 East" only if the 9803 had finished its run w/ MA-52 and was available for a new assignment. Otherwise if the 9803 was still working w/ MA-52 the gon extra would carry the engine number of what ever was assigned to it. I'm sure this is obvious to you but might not be to others. Re: Times shown in the arranged freight service schedule. These times had no timetable authority, as is stated in the arranged freight service schedules. The times were primarily for planning purposes and were not strictly abided by. The symbols would run when they were ready. For example a train that protected a connection from another train might be held to await the connecting cars. A train that was extremely light might be held for additional traffic or maybe even annulled and combined with a later train. Just because a train had an arranged service schedule didn't guarantee it was going to run. We even annulled scheduled passenger trains when necessary, not very often, but not unheard of. Al --Boundary_(ID_PVG2wJTctP2BSjyGoCQGDA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Elden, et al.,
 
Re: "...are you saying that a train might run as MA-52 9803 EAST, as a symbol freight with lead engine number 9803?  And that a gon extra not appearing on the arranged freight train service would run simply as 9803 EAST or Extra 9803 EAST?"
 
Basically yes, except obviously the gon extra would run as "Extra 9803 East" only if the 9803 had finished its run w/ MA-52 and was available for a new assignment. Otherwise if the 9803 was still working w/ MA-52 the gon extra would carry the engine number of what ever was assigned to it. I'm sure this is obvious to you but might not be to others.
 
Re: Times shown in the arranged freight service schedule.
 
These times had no timetable authority, as is stated in the arranged freight service schedules. The times were primarily for planning purposes and were not strictly abided by. The symbols would run when they were ready. For example a train that protected a connection from another train might be held to await the connecting cars.  A train that was extremely light might be held for additional traffic or maybe even annulled and combined with a later train. Just because a train had an arranged service schedule didn't guarantee it was going to run. We even annulled scheduled passenger trains when necessary, not very often, but not unheard of.
 
Al
 
--Boundary_(ID_PVG2wJTctP2BSjyGoCQGDA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:44:47 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] FLATS & GONDOLAS I am presently building, in ONE INCH SCALE, (2) 40' flat cars and a 50', "covered" gondola. Could anyone give me the number series for either or both of these cars? THANKS!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:53:08 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Dave, et al., Re: Who does the actual assignment of power to a particular train? How does the Dispatcher find out what locomotive was assigned? Presumably this is a communication between the yardmaster and the dispatcher, right? In the later days this was done at system level by the Motive Power Bureau operating out of the Blue Room. In the diesel days motive power was typically allocated by system to various pools and/or regions-divisions. The assignment of specific units to trains was most likely done at the regional or divisional level by knowing what power was available for work (on the ready track) at each originating terminal. The selection would be made primarily based on the tonnage of the train and the power required to haul that train over its planned route. This was done using the motive power tonnage rating charts that had been prepared by the system electrical engineers office. In some very few cases only specific units could be assigned to a train because of some territorial special requirements, such as weight on drivers, the need for NYC ATS equipment, etc. Once the trailing tons of the originating train was known, power could be assigned. When power was assigned the yard was notified of the engine numbers. The engine crew then picked up their power at the enginehouse and proceeded to work their way from there to their train in the yard. Following the proper inspection and brake testing the train was essentially good to go. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:03:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Class X23 and X26 in early '50s Yes X-23 and X-26 were around according to my October 1950 ORER. X-23, 106 in series 39995-44000 X-26, 1704 in series 37100-39865 X-26, 1666 in series 44001-46725. X-26, 19 in series 93901-93923 plus 1000s of others in other series. X-26c, over 3500 in series 104260-107759 Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:06:24 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] FLATS & GONDOLAS Re your request for flat car numbers, what class cars are you building? The numbers will be different by different classes. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:06:53 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0D0.3D82AD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Al, Thanks! That clarifies things quite a bit. I was using "9803" only as a point of commonality, although I should have stated it. On a busy line, I imagine some of the arranging of trains had to be done with a view toward staging them such that they weren't running into one another (literally). So, if unscheduled extras and slow locals were to be put into the mix, would that have also been a reason to schedule the symbol freights and bigger transfers at night? The only people needed to "service" these trains would have been PRR folks, unlike a local, which could conceivably have needed to have industry folks available to open gates so they could spot cars, take record of set-outs, etc. That way, the locals could do all the smaller (non-PRR yard) set-outs during daylight when customers had people working? And the tie-up of the mains would not matter as much with fewer trains present? And my example of MA-50 and MA-52 could conceivably have had MA-52 annulled due to a lack of cars, if that were the case and MA-50 could handle all of them? In an industry that had a lot of regularity, like the movement of coal, you could have had expectation that you would need these trains most of the time. But other trains dominated by things like structural steel shipment, might not be as regular? Also, what types of freight were viewed by the railroad as being higher priority, and thus, more likely to run in a symbol freight? I realize merchandise and auto parts might be two. How was coal and steel regarded? Did high and wides ever run as high priority? Thanks! Elden -----Original Message----- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0D0.3D82AD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message
Al,  Thanks!  That clarifies things quite a bit.  I was using "9803" only as a point of commonality, although I should have stated it.  On a busy line, I imagine some of the arranging of trains had to be done with a view toward staging them such that they weren't running into one another (literally).  So, if unscheduled extras and slow locals were to be put into the mix, would that have also been a reason to schedule the symbol freights and bigger transfers at night?  The only people needed to "service" these trains would have been PRR folks, unlike a local, which could conceivably have needed to have industry folks available to open gates so they could spot cars, take record of set-outs, etc.  That way, the locals could do all the smaller (non-PRR yard) set-outs during daylight when customers had people working?  And the tie-up of the mains would not matter as much with fewer trains present?
And my example of MA-50 and MA-52 could conceivably have had MA-52 annulled due to a lack of cars, if that were the case and MA-50 could handle all of them?  In an industry that had a lot of regularity, like the movement of coal, you could have had expectation that you would need these trains most of the time.  But other trains dominated by things like structural steel shipment, might not be as regular?
Also, what types of freight were viewed by the railroad as being higher priority, and thus, more likely to run in a symbol freight?  I realize merchandise and auto parts might be two.  How was coal and steel regarded?  Did high and wides ever run as high priority?
Thanks!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C0D0.3D82AD60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:08:44 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] F unit Antenna Stanchions Hi All, Does anyone have Bona Fide PRR or EMD drawings showing the location of the antenna stanchions on a F-7? If not, what is the best second choice? I am about to hang some antennas on my S Scale S Helper Service F-7 set. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html I will be more them happy to buy or trade for what you have. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class X23 and X26 in early '50s Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:52:09 -0500 Tom Rimer asked: PRR X-23 and X-26 boxcars Does anyone have any data to indicate how long these two single sheathed wooden boxcars remained in revenue service? My Railway Equipment Register is Penn Central era and of course had no 23's or 26's in service. I model in an early 50's time frame and wanted to know if I could get away with using these classes in revenue service. Tom, as Al's post shows, the answer is definitely yes, though the number in service changes drastically as you go through the decade. A summary of Class X23 ORER info is on Rob Schoenberg's website: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X23 Note that the numbers drop off quickly during early 1950s - down to 34 in April 1952, 15 in October 1953. Many of these went to stores and work service, so you can still justify them on your layout. Here's the link to the Class X26 page: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X26 The number of SS cars drop off quickly in mid-1950s, down to only 17 in revenue service by October 1958. Al Westerfield has 1950 and 1955 ORERs available on CD - a great bargain at $19.95, especially with what you'd pay for an original. More info at: http://users.multipro.com/westerfield By the way - NO DASHES IN CAR CLASSES unless you're talking about Class H-2A (which was an N&W class anyway). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:00:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Tower --part1_ae.36a3ab0e.2b5e11df_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a reverse view of BRILL, see pp. 102-103 of John F. Kirkland, _Dawn of the Diesel Age_, Glendale, Interurban Press, 1981: this is a shot of Brill-built Long Island #402 (1) climbing the grade from the PRR into the Brill plant. Milepost 4 is conspicuous between the mainline and the spur. The rail grade is still noticeable alongside the NEC, but all that remains of the Brill plant are some concrete building frames. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_ae.36a3ab0e.2b5e11df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a reverse view of BRILL, see pp. 102-103 of John F. Kirkland, _Dawn of
the Diesel Age_, Glendale, Interurban Press, 1981: this is a shot of
Brill-built Long Island #402 (1) climbing the grade from the PRR into the
Brill plant. Milepost 4 is conspicuous between the mainline and the spur.
The rail grade is still noticeable alongside the NEC, but all that remains
of the Brill plant are some concrete building frames.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_ae.36a3ab0e.2b5e11df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:08:51 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a photo --part1_18c.14daac68.2b5e13c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I have managed to pick up two Kato NW2 in PRR. I was so happy with the performance of the first one that I had to get another :) One came with the detail parts already installed, and Phase 2 exhaust stacks. I was thinking Phase 1 exhaust stacks, but maybe I am wrong. I model a wide time frame 1940's to the late 1950's. So anyhow I went searching for some photos, and I couldn't find any in my time frame. I found several dated in the 1960's, but none before that. I checked what resource material I have here at home also with no luck! I was also wondering how prototypical it would be to have two NW2's Mu'd?? I am planning on using them for yard service and maybe a local run or two! I am looking for any input here! How about one o each phases??!! I know its my railroad, but I like to stay fairly prototypical! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_18c.14daac68.2b5e13c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

I have managed to pick up two Kato NW2 in PRR.  I was so happy with the performance of the first one that I had to get another :)

One came with the detail parts already installed, and Phase 2 exhaust stacks.  I was thinking Phase 1 exhaust stacks, but maybe I am wrong.  I model a wide time frame 1940's to the late 1950's.  So anyhow I went searching for some photos, and I couldn't find any in my time frame.  I found several dated in the 1960's, but none before that.  I checked what resource material I have here at home also with no luck!

I was also wondering how prototypical it would be to have two NW2's Mu'd?? I am planning on using them for yard service and maybe a local run or two!

I am looking for any input here!  How about one o each phases??!!  I know its my railroad, but I like to stay fairly prototypical!

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_18c.14daac68.2b5e13c3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:23:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a > I was also wondering how prototypical it would be to have two NW2's Mu'd?? I > am planning on using them for yard service and maybe a local run or two! If you really want to be prototypical, not very. The PRR owned 1, #3909 (later #5912) > List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo Having HTML in a plain text message is sort of silly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:29:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Class F-38 Flat Car info --part1_12f.20d7563a.2b5e188e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just purchased an Eastern Car Works F-38 flat car kit. While pricey, I couldn't resist this model. However, once I got it home and began to tackle the assembly, I was very disappointed. The directions are poorly written (and I'm being nice), and while there is a picture, it is too dark to notice details. The only diagram provided is a very poorly drawn hand sketch, and it does not include showing where all the parts go. As far as painting instructions, forget it... there aren't any! So a word of advice to anyone considering this kit; while it is a decent kit, a lot of work and research is required to complete this kit. It leaves me very disappointed with Eastern Car Works. Now on to my questions. First, can anyone refer me to any photos, either on line or in books, of this car? Specifically, I am looking for placement of the brake components, as well as a lettering guide. They do provide decals, but absolutely no mention of placement. Also, I assume this car was painted Oxide red. However, while I'm confident that the body of the car is red, I'm not sure about the two 'bolster extensions' that have decks. Were these also painted red? And finally, would the truck side frames have been painted red as well? Thanks in advance to all! Mark Frysztacki --part1_12f.20d7563a.2b5e188e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just purchased an Eastern Car Works F-38 flat car kit.  While pricey, I couldn't resist this model.  However, once I got it home and began to tackle the assembly, I was very disappointed.  The directions are poorly written (and I'm being nice), and while there is a picture, it is too dark to notice details.  The only diagram provided is a very poorly drawn hand sketch, and it does not include showing where all the parts go.  As far as painting instructions, forget it... there aren't any!  So a word of advice to anyone considering this kit; while it is a decent kit, a lot of work and research is required to complete this kit.  It leaves me very disappointed with Eastern Car Works.

Now on to my questions.  First, can anyone refer me to any photos, either on line or in books, of this car?  Specifically, I am looking for placement of the brake components, as well as a lettering guide.  They do provide decals, but absolutely no mention of placement.  Also, I assume this car was painted Oxide red.  However, while I'm confident that the body of the car is red, I'm not sure about the two 'bolster extensions' that have decks.  Were these also painted red?  And finally, would the truck side frames have been painted red as well?

Thanks in advance to all!

Mark Frysztacki --part1_12f.20d7563a.2b5e188e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:43:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a Brian Carlson points out I'm full of it, and he's right. I have no idea what I was thinking of. On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Brian J Carlson wrote: > Derrick they actually owned 32 3909 (renumbered 5912 in 42) 5921-5922, > 5923-5925, 9155-9176, 9247-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:46:32 -0600 The problem with the Kato NW2 body is there are no louvres in the doors. The PRR NW2's had louvres. Does Cannon or anybody else make suitable doors to represent this? BTW, the PRR had 32 NW2's. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:17:14 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Numerical Designations of Trains Running as Extras This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6MzwudaYtYRaKBN6IMOjPw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Elden, et al., Actually the presence of industry folks wasn't all that important when switching. In many cases industry gates had two locks, an industry lock and a railroad lock linked together so either the crew or industry could open as required. Also many times the waybills were left in the knuckle or in waybill boxes (sometimes US type mailboxes) adjacent to the spur track or on the loading dock wall provided for that purpose. Yes, MA-52 might have been annulled for lack of traffic. Re: Also, what types of freight were viewed by the railroad as being higher priority, and thus, more likely to run in a symbol freight. First of all the through and local freight trains all carried symbols. It was only the coal, ore and special car movement (e.g., gon) trains that were non-symbol trains. These were also typically solid trains of coal and ore moving to and from the docks. Or in the case of a gon extra, collecting mty gons from along the line for Pittsburgh or wherever. It sometimes ran short of gons for the steel mills. In the later PC and CR era the coal and ore trains got symbols also. Regarding priority, it was mostly time sensitive high value goods. Although the movement of coal especially to the docks could take high priority at times because it was sometimes timed to boat arrivals. Also the movement of mty hoppers to ore docks could take on some priorities at times again as a function of boat arrival and wanting to load it directly into cars and not double handle it, i.e., to ground storage and thence into a car. Re: Did high and wides ever run as high priority? Usually not unless it was some hot item that had a time sensitive deadline. Lots of times priority it was dependent on just who the shipper or consignee was, General Motors, General Mills, General Electric, USS, etc, etc. We had a sort of gross saying that when GM said s**t, the PRR squatted and asked what color. Al --Boundary_(ID_6MzwudaYtYRaKBN6IMOjPw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Elden, et al.,
 
Actually the presence of industry folks wasn't all that important when switching. In many cases industry gates had two locks, an industry lock and a railroad lock linked together so either the crew or industry could open as required. Also many times the waybills were left in the knuckle or in waybill boxes (sometimes US type mailboxes) adjacent to the spur track or on the loading dock wall provided for that purpose. 
 
Yes, MA-52 might have been annulled for lack of traffic.
 
Re: Also, what types of freight were viewed by the railroad as being higher priority, and thus, more likely to run in a symbol freight.
First of all the through and local freight trains all carried symbols. It was only the coal, ore and special car movement (e.g., gon) trains that were non-symbol trains. These were also typically solid trains of coal and ore moving to and from the docks. Or in the case of a gon extra, collecting mty gons from along the line for Pittsburgh or wherever. It sometimes ran short of gons for the steel mills. In the later PC and CR era the coal and ore trains got symbols also.
 
Regarding priority, it was mostly time sensitive high value goods. Although the movement of coal especially to the docks could take high priority at times because it was sometimes timed to boat arrivals. Also the movement of mty hoppers to ore docks could take on some priorities at times again as a function of boat arrival and wanting to load it directly into cars and not double handle it, i.e., to ground storage and thence into a car.
 
Re: Did high and wides ever run as high priority?
Usually not unless it was some hot item that had a time sensitive deadline.
 
Lots of times priority it was dependent on just who the shipper or consignee was, General Motors, General Mills, General Electric, USS, etc, etc.
We had a sort of gross saying that when GM said s**t, the PRR squatted and asked what color.
 
Al
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_6MzwudaYtYRaKBN6IMOjPw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:08:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] F unit Antenna Stanchions Hi All, Does anyone have Bona Fide PRR or EMD drawings showing the location of the antenna stanchions on a F-7? If not, what is the best second choice? I am about to hang some antennas on my S Scale S Helper Service F-7 set. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html I will be more them happy to buy or trade for what you have. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:27:28 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] T-1 in Cincinnati (correspondence) In a message dated 1/21/03 9:48:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:10:20 EST > From: RGAST2@aol.com > Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati > > Dan Finfrock once told me about the PRR's Union passenger train > (Cincinnati-Chicago) coming through Hamilton with a T1 that had trouble > pulling the train around the big curve there (where the NS--CSX connection > is > now at Butler Street.) > > Jeff > Probably not surprising -- the 1968 track chart shows this as a 13 degree curve. Though 1955 was apparently too late to call out T1 restrictions, this area was restricted to 15 mph for all trains in the 1955 Cincinnati District ETT (to be exact, MP 30.0 to Old River Jct.). Old River Junction (MP 31.5) was where the Richmond Branch started trackage rights on the B&O Toledo Division/CH&D through Hamilton, getting off at MP 33.1. ************************* Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 09:26:33 -0600 From: Frederick Ripley Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati <> I need the citation of the Trains article/photo if someone can provide it. If a westbound local, it could be 203 or 205, unnamed Pittsburgh - Cincinnati trains. As we'll discuss more fully in the coming Keystone article, that "Pennsy Streamliners" p 84 photo of #40 the Cincinnati Limited is not in Columbus, but is just north of Cincinnati Union Terminal. The train is still in the Mill Creek Valley, but debate continues as to whether the train is still on CUT rails, or (more likely) on its trackage rights on the B&O/Marietta & Cincinnati. ************************ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:19:02 EST From: RGAST2@aol.com Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati <> If I'm thinking of the same photo, it's in the rain and the H-10-44 is going to help out from the front. This photo may not exactly be the indictment of T1 tractive effort that fans have made it out to be -- unfortunately, Columbus Union Station had a 1% grade pulling out eastbound, probably aggravated further by flat platform tracks. I'm told that if you had a couple too many cars in your train, getting out of there was tricky no matter what the power. The culprit here was not the T1, but rain, a heavily loaded train, and a profile climbing up away from the Scioto River. OTOH, I'll bet it's true the puzzle switches at this end did get a beating from time to time. ************************** Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 14:27:59 -0600 From: Frederick Ripley Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati >The photo also showed an FM switcher passing the passenger >train, which had stalled. The caption said the FM was going to come up >against the train's rear end and help push it out of the station. Said the >track at the depot was chewed up from other T1's having the same trouble. Yes, that's the one- I thought the train was WB, but I could be wrong. In either case, I assume a T1 would have run through from Pittsburgh to Cincy. Anyone know differently? Fred R.>> If the head house is on the left, then we're looking at an eastbound. Think most roads tried to avoid pushing passengers -- those long cars would be easy to derail and jackstraw. Have no way of determining if a T1 would run through Cincinnati - Pittsburgh. One of the objections might be nasty grades Pittsburgh - Dennison. *************************** Message: 5 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:43:20 -0000 From: "jkendig2001 " Subject: T-1s At Cincinnati <> I think we're safe in saying that. <> I'm not sure I proved that anywhere -- true, I don't see any weight limits or engine restrictions in 1955 or 1966 ETT's, although the T1 is out of both. My comment was that Pendleton's turntable size could not have been a limiting factor as some claimed, as PRR passenger power tied up at CUT, not Pendleton. ******************************************** Message: 6 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:49:31 EST From: RGAST2@aol.com Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati <> Eastbound freights faced upgrade eastbound, made worse by the curvy bypass tracks. Eastbound passenger trains ran fairly "straight" through the Columbus station, but had to tackle the quirky "extra eastbound grade" at departure from the platform tracks. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Local Freight Symbols From: Jerry Britton Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras. Here's the subject for today... Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train Service". > EASTWARD > > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. > > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily > [this was probably a transfer run] > > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily > [this was probably a transfer run] > > WESTWARD > > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. > > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload > freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class F-38 Flat Car info Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:52:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01C2C119.A8E4B820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Having also purchased this kit, I must agree with you assessment of the = instructions. Given the price of the kit, they are inexcusable. I am also interested in the placement of brake components and the piping = as well. While this is a nice model, I could be improved with some more = detail. As far as the paint goes, there are photos of the other big PRR flat = car, FD2/FW1, in Color Guide to Pennsylvania Railroad Freight and = Passenger Equipment Vol-2. This is the one with the four T1 tender = trucks which are painted black. The bolsters appear to have been painted = red including the deck, may be a bit worn. Given nothing else, I would = guess the F38s were painted the same way Bruce ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkCFry@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:29 PM Subject: [PRR] Class F-38 Flat Car info I just purchased an Eastern Car Works F-38 flat car kit. While = pricey, I couldn't resist this model. However, once I got it home and = began to tackle the assembly, I was very disappointed. The directions = are poorly written (and I'm being nice), and while there is a picture, = it is too dark to notice details. The only diagram provided is a very = poorly drawn hand sketch, and it does not include showing where all the = parts go. As far as painting instructions, forget it... there aren't = any! So a word of advice to anyone considering this kit; while it is a = decent kit, a lot of work and research is required to complete this kit. = It leaves me very disappointed with Eastern Car Works. Now on to my questions. First, can anyone refer me to any photos, = either on line or in books, of this car? Specifically, I am looking for = placement of the brake components, as well as a lettering guide. They = do provide decals, but absolutely no mention of placement. Also, I = assume this car was painted Oxide red. However, while I'm confident = that the body of the car is red, I'm not sure about the two 'bolster = extensions' that have decks. Were these also painted red? And finally, = would the truck side frames have been painted red as well? Thanks in advance to all! Mark Frysztacki ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01C2C119.A8E4B820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
 
Having also purchased this kit, I must = agree with=20 you assessment of the instructions.  Given the price of the kit, = they are=20 inexcusable.
 
I am also interested in the placement = of brake=20 components and the piping as well.  While this is a nice model, I = could be=20 improved with some more detail.
 
As far as the paint goes, there are = photos of the=20 other big PRR flat car, FD2/FW1, in Color Guide to Pennsylvania Railroad = Freight=20 and Passenger Equipment Vol-2.  This is the one with the four T1 = tender=20 trucks which are painted black. The bolsters appear to have been painted = red=20 including the deck, may be a bit worn. Given nothing else, I would = guess=20 the F38s were painted the same way
 
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MarkCFry@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 = 10:29=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Class F-38 Flat = Car=20 info

I just purchased an Eastern Car Works F-38 flat = car=20 kit.  While pricey, I couldn't resist this model.  However, = once I=20 got it home and began to tackle the assembly, I was very = disappointed. =20 The directions are poorly written (and I'm being nice), and while = there is a=20 picture, it is too dark to notice details.  The only diagram = provided is=20 a very poorly drawn hand sketch, and it does not include showing where = all the=20 parts go.  As far as painting instructions, forget it... there = aren't=20 any!  So a word of advice to anyone considering this kit; while = it is a=20 decent kit, a lot of work and research is required to complete this = kit. =20 It leaves me very disappointed with Eastern Car Works.

Now on = to my=20 questions.  First, can anyone refer me to any photos, either on = line or=20 in books, of this car?  Specifically, I am looking for placement = of the=20 brake components, as well as a lettering guide.  They do provide = decals,=20 but absolutely no mention of placement.  Also, I assume this car = was=20 painted Oxide red.  However, while I'm confident that the body of = the car=20 is red, I'm not sure about the two 'bolster extensions' that have = decks. =20 Were these also painted red?  And finally, would the truck side = frames=20 have been painted red as well?

Thanks in advance to = all!

Mark=20 Frysztacki ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01C2C119.A8E4B820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:34:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class F-38 Flat Car info Mark says: >I just purchased an Eastern Car Works F-38 flat car kit. While pricey, I >couldn't resist this model. However, once I got it home and began to >tackle the assembly, I was very disappointed. The directions are poorly >written (and I'm being nice), and while there is a picture, it is too dark >to notice details. The only diagram provided is a very poorly drawn hand >sketch, and it does not include showing where all the parts go. As far as >painting instructions, forget it... there aren't any! So a word of advice >to anyone considering this kit; while it is a decent kit, a lot of work >and research is required to complete this kit. It leaves me very >disappointed with Eastern Car Works. Now on to my questions. First, can >anyone refer me to any photos, either on line or in books, of this car? >Specifically, I am looking for placement of the brake components, as well >as a lettering guide. They do provide decals, but absolutely no mention >of placement. Also, I assume this car was painted Oxide red. However, >while I'm confident that the body of the car is red, I'm not sure about >the two 'bolster extensions' that have decks. Were these also painted >red? And finally, would the truck side frames have been painted red as >well? Thanks in advance to all! 1) You're suprised? I open any ECW kit with trepidation, based on my past experiences (minial instructions, poorly cast parts, warped parts, grossly oversized details...). For example, they took a really nice B60B kit from Bethlehem and removed all of the underbody details, and then upped the price! 2) The car, bolsters and trucks were painted Freight Car Color (trucks were painted red on new cars, black on rebuilt cars IIRC) 3) Photographs of the Rail Classics model (including underframe) are at: http://www.railclassics.com/Models.htm Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:46:11 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR prints From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" All I visited the Plano (north of Dallas, TX) Train show this past weekend. The vendors' tables are usually devoid of PRR stuff (or anything else east of the Mississippi), but the grandkids like the show and a lot of my Railspot buddies attend. I was elated to find a print by John Winfield entitled "Pennsylvania Gateway." Remember the Keystone cover several issues back that shows a T eastbound on the Panhandle with Pittsburgh in the background? Well, Winfield has used the same photo only he included the westbound J that was also in the photo. Take a look at his web site. It is in the middle of the page when it pops up: www.winfieldrailart.com. He also has prints of the Rockville Bridge, and the snout of a GG1 at Broad Street Station. There is an online order page if you are inclined to purchase a print, complete with phone numbers. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Winfield except that I bought one of these prints. Don Harper Marine Laboratory Texas A&M - Galveston 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:46:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cresson Local From: Jerry Britton Think 1950's... There was obviously a local to Cresson that brought materials to the locomotive facility. Anyone know, did it come out of Altoona or Johnstown? Logic suggests Altoona, because of the shops there. Any idea what it's symbol was, or typical power? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:47:09 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C174.FEC67502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Is that a power plant in the back? If so what was it for? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 3:21 PM To: RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins Evan, That's the dirtiest "focal orange" cabin car I've seen shots of. The key is the window frames. The PRR cabin cars that were painted focal orange were rebuilds and received new, sealed windows, except the side windows on the cupola, which were also new but slid open. Note the new, rounded corners on the windows on this car. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins PRR List, Is the cabin car on the right the Focal Orange that was discussed a few weeks back? http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_2_1966.jpg For the Chicago area members on the PRR List the following will be of interest: http://algomacentral.railfan.net/chicago_area.htm Evan Leisey ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C174.FEC67502 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers,
 
Is=20 that a power plant in the back?  If so what was it = for?
 
Chris=20 Chany
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Mahlkov=20 [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 = 3:21=20 PM
To: RDG2124@aol.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Focal Orange Cabins

Evan,
 
That's the dirtiest "focal orange" cabin car I've = seen shots=20 of. The key is the window frames. The PRR cabin cars that were = painted focal=20 orange were rebuilds and received new, sealed windows, except the = side windows=20 on the cupola, which were also new but slid open. Note the new, = rounded=20 corners on the windows on this car.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, January 18, = 2003 11:49=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange=20 Cabins

PRR List,

  Is the cabin car on = the right the=20 Focal Orange that was discussed a few weeks back?

  http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_2_1966.jpg=

  =20 For the Chicago area members on the PRR List the following will be = of=20 interest:

  http://algoma= central.railfan.net/chicago_area.htm

Evan=20 Leisey
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C174.FEC67502-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:14:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a --part1_11c.1d9e66fd.2b5f122c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess when I said MU'd I didn't really meant MU'd :) I meant two of them running together with one crew or two crews! Thanks for reminding me! Can someone shed some light on this phase thing with the exhaust stacks? From the directions the phase 1's are short and the phase 2 are taller. Do they both need to be the same phase, or would you have seen two different phases working the railroad at the same time? Thanks for all the information so far! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio I remember to dump the SIG this time :) --part1_11c.1d9e66fd.2b5f122c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess when I said MU'd I didn't really meant MU'd :)  I meant two of them running together with one crew or two crews!  Thanks for reminding me!

Can someone shed some light on this phase thing with the exhaust stacks? From the directions the phase 1's are short and the phase 2 are taller.  Do they both need to be the same phase, or would you have seen two different phases working the railroad at the same time?

Thanks for all the information so far!

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio

I remember to dump the SIG this time :)




--part1_11c.1d9e66fd.2b5f122c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:21:35 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] F unit antenna mast Bill and all, If the drawing are out there I could never find them... I don't have the exact measurements here in from of me at work but they are not all evenly spaced all the way down. That is to say the first mast (over the cab) and the second mast (just behind the cab) are spaced slight wider apart then they they become evenly space. The trick is getting them correct going down the back of the unit and then they come forward under the rear of the sill. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:27:28 EST Subject: [PRR] T-1 in Cincinnati (correspondence) --part1_131.195727d6.2b5f85c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/03 9:48:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:10:20 EST > From: RGAST2@aol.com > Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati > > Dan Finfrock once told me about the PRR's Union passenger train > (Cincinnati-Chicago) coming through Hamilton with a T1 that had trouble > pulling the train around the big curve there (where the NS--CSX connection > is > now at Butler Street.) > > Jeff > Probably not surprising -- the 1968 track chart shows this as a 13 degree curve. Though 1955 was apparently too late to call out T1 restrictions, this area was restricted to 15 mph for all trains in the 1955 Cincinnati District ETT (to be exact, MP 30.0 to Old River Jct.). Old River Junction (MP 31.5) was where the Richmond Branch started trackage rights on the B&O Toledo Division/CH&D through Hamilton, getting off at MP 33.1. ************************* Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 09:26:33 -0600 From: Frederick Ripley Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati <> I need the citation of the Trains article/photo if someone can provide it. If a westbound local, it could be 203 or 205, unnamed Pittsburgh - Cincinnati trains. As we'll discuss more fully in the coming Keystone article, that "Pennsy Streamliners" p 84 photo of #40 the Cincinnati Limited is not in Columbus, but is just north of Cincinnati Union Terminal. The train is still in the Mill Creek Valley, but debate continues as to whether the train is still on CUT rails, or (more likely) on its trackage rights on the B&O/Marietta & Cincinnati. ************************ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:19:02 EST From: RGAST2@aol.com Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati <> If I'm thinking of the same photo, it's in the rain and the H-10-44 is going to help out from the front. This photo may not exactly be the indictment of T1 tractive effort that fans have made it out to be -- unfortunately, Columbus Union Station had a 1% grade pulling out eastbound, probably aggravated further by flat platform tracks. I'm told that if you had a couple too many cars in your train, getting out of there was tricky no matter what the power. The culprit here was not the T1, but rain, a heavily loaded train, and a profile climbing up away from the Scioto River. OTOH, I'll bet it's true the puzzle switches at this end did get a beating from time to time. ************************** Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 14:27:59 -0600 From: Frederick Ripley Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati >The photo also showed an FM switcher passing the passenger >train, which had stalled. The caption said the FM was going to come up >against the train's rear end and help push it out of the station. Said the >track at the depot was chewed up from other T1's having the same trouble. Yes, that's the one- I thought the train was WB, but I could be wrong. In either case, I assume a T1 would have run through from Pittsburgh to Cincy. Anyone know differently? Fred R.>> If the head house is on the left, then we're looking at an eastbound. Think most roads tried to avoid pushing passengers -- those long cars would be easy to derail and jackstraw. Have no way of determining if a T1 would run through Cincinnati - Pittsburgh. One of the objections might be nasty grades Pittsburgh - Dennison. *************************** Message: 5 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:43:20 -0000 From: "jkendig2001 " Subject: T-1s At Cincinnati <> I think we're safe in saying that. <> I'm not sure I proved that anywhere -- true, I don't see any weight limits or engine restrictions in 1955 or 1966 ETT's, although the T1 is out of both. My comment was that Pendleton's turntable size could not have been a limiting factor as some claimed, as PRR passenger power tied up at CUT, not Pendleton. ******************************************** Message: 6 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:49:31 EST From: RGAST2@aol.com Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati <> Eastbound freights faced upgrade eastbound, made worse by the curvy bypass tracks. Eastbound passenger trains ran fairly "straight" through the Columbus station, but had to tackle the quirky "extra eastbound grade" at departure from the platform tracks. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_131.195727d6.2b5f85c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/03 9:48:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:10:20 EST
   From: RGAST2@aol.com
Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati

Dan Finfrock once told me about the PRR's Union passenger train
(Cincinnati-Chicago) coming through Hamilton with a T1 that had trouble
pulling the train around the big curve there (where the NS--CSX connection is
now at Butler Street.)

Jeff


Probably not surprising -- the 1968 track chart shows this as a 13 degree curve.  Though 1955 was apparently too late to call out T1 restrictions, this area was restricted to 15 mph for all trains in the 1955 Cincinnati District ETT (to be exact, MP 30.0 to Old River Jct.).  Old River Junction (MP 31.5) was where the Richmond Branch started trackage rights on the B&O Toledo Division/CH&D through Hamilton, getting off at MP 33.1.

*************************
Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 09:26:33 -0600
   From: Frederick Ripley <frederick.ripley@murraystate.edu>
Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati

<<Listfriends,

I enjoyed the T1 memories.  There are a couple of shots in Columbus that
would suggest that T1's ran to Cincy not infrequently.  In a mid/late
'70's "Trains" issue, there is photo of a westbound Pittsburgh-Cincy
passenger train taken about 1949 (described as a "local", and big-
about 17 cars) leaving the station with a T1.  On page 84 on "Pennsy
Streamliners" is
a shot of the eastbound "Cincinnati Limited" at Columbus in 1951 with a
T1.  As the caption
notes, this would certainly have a very late date for a T1 to power a
limited, or any
train at all.

Fred R.>>

I need the citation of the Trains article/photo if someone can provide it.  If a westbound local, it could be 203 or 205, unnamed Pittsburgh - Cincinnati trains.

As we'll discuss more fully in the coming Keystone article, that "Pennsy Streamliners" p 84 photo of #40 the Cincinnati Limited is not in Columbus, but is just north of Cincinnati Union Terminal.  The train is still in the Mill Creek Valley, but debate continues as to whether the train is still on CUT rails, or (more likely) on its trackage rights on the B&O/Marietta & Cincinnati.

************************
Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:19:02 EST
   From: RGAST2@aol.com
Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati

<<I remember seeing a Trains' centerspread showing a T1 at Columbus.  Don't
know if that's the one you're referring to or not.  I thought that photo was
of an eastbound.  The photo also showed an FM switcher passing the passenger
train, which had stalled.  The caption said the FM was going to come up
against the train's rear end and help push it out of the station.  Said the
track at the depot was chewed up from other T1's having the same trouble.

Jeff>>

If I'm thinking of the same photo, it's in the rain and the H-10-44 is going to help out from the front.  This photo may not exactly be the indictment of T1 tractive effort that fans have made it out to be -- unfortunately, Columbus Union Station had a 1% grade pulling out eastbound, probably aggravated further by flat platform tracks.  I'm told that if you had a couple too many cars in your train, getting out of there was tricky no matter what the power.

The culprit here was not the T1, but rain, a heavily loaded train, and a profile climbing up away from the Scioto River.  OTOH, I'll bet it's true the puzzle switches at this end did get a beating from time to time.

**************************
Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 14:27:59 -0600
   From: Frederick Ripley <frederick.ripley@murraystate.edu>
Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati

>The photo also showed an FM switcher passing the passenger
>train, which had stalled.  The caption said the FM was going to come up
>against the train's rear end and help push it out of the station.  Said the
>track at the depot was chewed up from other T1's having the same trouble.

Yes, that's the one- I thought the train was WB, but I could be wrong. 
In either
case, I assume a T1 would have run through from Pittsburgh to Cincy. 
Anyone know
differently?

Fred R.>>

If the head house is on the left, then we're looking at an eastbound.  Think most roads tried to avoid pushing passengers -- those long cars would be easy to derail and jackstraw.  Have no way of determining if a T1 would run through Cincinnati - Pittsburgh.  One of the objections might be nasty grades Pittsburgh - Dennison.

***************************
Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:43:20 -0000
   From: "jkendig2001 <jkendig@blomand.net>" <jkendig@blomand.net>
Subject: T-1s At Cincinnati

<<List Members
In a message from Bob Chapman he states that he was informed by some
Pennsy "experts" that there is a curve near Columbus that the T-1
could not negotiate and for that reason the T-1 could not be used in
service to Cincinnati.  This is obviously bunk since the T-1
routinely operated through Dayton and further West.  Cincinnati and
Dayton trains used the same tracks through Columbus as far as
Xenia.>>

I think we're safe in saying that.

<<I could accept an explanation for the absence of T-1s in
Cincinnati if it were based on curvature or bridge limit issues
South of Xenia on the Little Miami- but as Rick Tipton has pointed
out, that was apparently not a problem. >>

I'm not sure I proved that anywhere -- true, I don't see any weight limits or engine restrictions in 1955 or 1966 ETT's, although the T1 is out of both.  My comment was that Pendleton's turntable size could not have been a limiting factor as some claimed, as PRR passenger power tied up at CUT, not Pendleton.

********************************************
Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:49:31 EST
   From: RGAST2@aol.com
Subject: Re: The T1 in Cincinnati

<<I haven't come across that photo for a long time.  Maybe I need to dig it up
again!
But wasn't the hard pull out of the station eastbound?  Westbound, trains
should've been headed downgrade for the river.  I guess freights had to
traverse a severe curve "behind the stack," but don't know if passenger
trains used the same trackage or not.

Jeff>>

Eastbound freights faced upgrade eastbound, made worse by the curvy bypass tracks.  Eastbound passenger trains ran fairly "straight" through the Columbus station, but had to tackle the quirky "extra eastbound grade" at departure from the platform tracks.






Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_131.195727d6.2b5f85c0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:40:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote: > Can someone shed some light on this phase thing with the exhaust stacks? From > the directions the phase 1's are short and the phase 2 are taller. Do they > both need to be the same phase, or would you have seen two different phases > working the railroad at the same time? Phase I lacks louvres in hood-side doors, and has short exhaust stacks. Phase II has conical exhaust stacks which are taller. Phase III has six sets of vertical louvres in the hood-side doors. Phase IV adds a gap in the hood side louvres to allow a road name to be painted on the unit carbody. Phase V changes to a uniform (instead of 2 step) taper on the hood to the cab. http://yardlimit.railfan.net/emd/spotting/ Brian Carlson suggested it was the "one SW" I was thinking of, but I think it was actually "one NW2 phase 1". I should check that, though. > I remember to dump the SIG this time :) Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:32:29 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] not all locomotives MU equally.. (from erielack list) Dear Group, A discussion has been ongoing on the erielack mailgroup about MU capabilities of various EL locomotives. Here is a forwarded message of PRR interest. I'll forward another shortly. Cheers, Alan Samostie -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: (erielack) not all locomotives MU equally.. Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:34:26 -0500 From: "Bill K." Reply-To: "Bill K." CC: "ELHS Mailing List" Most cab "A" units as built could not MU on the nose end, but virtually all of them were later modified to do so (the addition over the headlight on EL PA's was an MU connection). Most Baldwins were built with a pneumatic throttle arrangement and could not be MU'ed to other power. EL units, however, were ordered with electric throttles by the Erie. But they came with the MU system unique to Erie units, not compatible with Lackawanna or later EL power. Different number of jumpers to it if I remember correctly. The Pennsy did rebuild an ABA shark set with Alco 251's and electric throttles as an experiment but it was short lived - although the B, turned generator on a truck dolly, became the last Shark B to exist anywhere before it was cut up in the 1990's. Bill K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph D. Fisher" To: "Gary R. Kazin" Cc: "ELHS Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:44 PM Subject: Re: (erielack) not all locomotives MU equally.. > I am not sure about the EL fleet, but there were many examples within > the Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel fleet which only had MU on one end of > the locomotive. > > I know comparing EL to the PRR is like comparing apples to oranges, but > on some railroads, certain model locomotives (as specified by the owner) > were built in such a way, resulting in 2 unit lashups only due to this > odd specification. > > Here are some oddities.... > > PRR ALCo RS-1s had MU only on the short hood, long hood was designated > the front. (later corrected by PC) > > PRR ordered all their SW-9's with MU, yet when returning to EMD for > SW-1200's, ditched the MU option altogether. > > Did the same with ALCo T-6, depsite ordering some ALCo S-4's with MU. > > Baldwin 1,000 H.P. roadswitchers (believe their called DRS-44-10) had no > MU despite being of roadswitcher design. > > Point here is like this, for modeling purposes, its a hobby, it dosen't > matter how you lash them up. > > For prototypical purposes, from talking to people who were hostlers, it > dosen't matter how they were lashed up as long as they worked. There was > (and still is) rarely any time in the motorpits to try and make > "photogenic" lashups. > > Paul is right in the sense that a pair of GP-7's look nice back to back, > but in reality, if units came in elephant style, they tended to be > turned as a set and sent back out elephant style, unless more power was > added or a unit was swapped out due to failure. > > Joe > > New Jersey Transit / Norfolk Southern > Milepost B-21.4, Boonton Tpke > Mountain View, New Jersey > > "Let the bodies hit the floor...." > ~Drowning Pool~ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:34:19 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] Re: not all locomotives MU equally.. (from erielack list) Dear Group, A reply to the previous message forwarded from the erielack mailgroup. Cheers, Alan Samostie -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: (erielack) not all locomotives MU equally.. Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:32:27 -0500 (EST) From: "J. Henry Priebe Jr." Reply-To: "J. Henry Priebe Jr." To: Erie Lackawanna Mail List On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Bill K. wrote: 8<--- > The Pennsy did rebuild an ABA shark set with Alco 251's and electric > throttles as an experiment but it was short lived - although the B, turned > generator on a truck dolly, became the last Shark B to exist anywhere before > it was cut up in the 1990's. > > Bill K. My dad and I found that Shark B outside Scranton in the early 90's and crawled around it one afternoon. I was like "Dad, stop, what was that?!! Look at that thing over there!" It looked mostly intact on the exterior, just missing trucks, some roof panels and some of its guts. It was obviously a PRR Shark B in single stripe DGLP. At least I can _say_ I have been in a Shark B. Stupid me didn't get any pictures :( I think we were in the area for one of the early Steamtown Railphoto weekends, might have been the first one actually. It may have been the trip on which I only took the Sony 8mm camcorder and earlier that weekend it had managed to convert itself into $1500 worth of scrap while in the parking lot! I still got to railfan a lot of the DL&W and Erie that weekend, I'm just stuck with mostly memories instead of video... Henry J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon Internet Corp Network Administrator www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:30:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Class F-38 Flat Car info --part1_16d.1808c8ab.2b602127_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to thank everyone for the replies that I received. I got a few good links to some photos on line which helped to answer most of my questions. It also appears that many agree with my assesment of the ECW kit. I am 'detailing' the kit replacing the grabs and stirrups, as the plastic ones that they molded on are terribly oversize. A few other things can be done to improve the appearance of this kit as well. Thanks again for everyone's input. Mark --part1_16d.1808c8ab.2b602127_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to thank everyone for the replies that I received.  I got a few good links to some photos on line which helped to answer most of my questions.  It also appears that many agree with my assesment of the ECW kit.  I am 'detailing' the kit replacing the grabs and stirrups, as the plastic ones that they molded on are terribly oversize.  A few other things can be done to improve the appearance of this kit as well. 

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Mark
 --part1_16d.1808c8ab.2b602127_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:48:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Back Online From: Jerry Britton We're back online... Once again, our upstream ISP was down -- from around 5 a.m. to 1 p.m. May be time to start shopping for a new ISP! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:24:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Eastern Car Works Passenger Cars Anyone know where on the internet there is a list matching Eastern Car Works passenger cars with plan and diagram numbers? Have not been able to find one. Thanks. Ron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] 1954 Wilkes-Barre Track Chart? Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:57:44 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Does anybody have a track chart for the Wilkes-Barre branch for any time between 1945 and 1955? I'm researching it for a 1954 layout and I'm going nuts with the changes that happened between the 1945 ct1000e and the 1965 track chart that Jerry has online. http://historical.maptech.com has 1954/1955 topo maps for this whole line except for Wilkes-Barre itself, so that's a great help, and even though I know I can't count on its accuracy for trackwork, it shows some interesting differences between then and now. I'm rather out of the Pennsy area here in Boston, so they don't show up at the local shows, and I won't be able to get to Springfield next weekend, so if anybody has any leads, I'd like to know. If I wind up buying one, I'll loan it to Jerry for scanning and posting. Thanks for any help you can render! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:06:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR B6sb Update Lists, Below are several pics as to what the 1:29th Scale B6sb looks like as of right now. Just 2 more detail items to attach (Brake Shoes & Leaf Springs) to the loco and it would appear to be finished, minus some finishing work on rods. Work on the Tender can now proceed. Firemans side: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000850.jpg Engineers side: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000853.jpg Complete coverage of the Project: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html PS: Sadly, the running ability isn't quite up to the quality I was looking for, Yet. You just can't do good work with hand tools when it comes to a smooth chassis. Work is now being planned for a better chassis with the help of a machinist and his workshop. Chassis main core will now be of Aluminum, not Styrene.......More in a few weeks....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:06:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: PRR B6sb Update Lists, Below are several pics as to what the 1:29th Scale B6sb looks like as of right now. Just 2 more detail items to attach (Brake Shoes & Leaf Springs) to the loco and it would appear to be finished, minus some finishing work on rods. Work on the Tender can now proceed. Firemans side: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000850.jpg Engineers side: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000853.jpg Complete coverage of the Project: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html PS: Sadly, the running ability isn't quite up to the quality I was looking for, Yet. You just can't do good work with hand tools when it comes to a smooth chassis. Work is now being planned for a better chassis with the help of a machinist and his workshop. Chassis main core will now be of Aluminum, not Styrene.......More in a few weeks....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:40:10 -0500 Based on Derricks post PRR 5923-5925, and 9155-9176 Phase IV units. I don't have pictures of the other series, 3909/5912, 5921, 5922, 9247-9250 to verify what series they are. Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:49:26 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR NW2's- I need some information here and maybe a On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Brian J Carlson wrote: > Based on Derricks post PRR 5923-5925, and 9155-9176 Phase IV units. I don't > have pictures of the other series, 3909/5912, 5921, 5922, 9247-9250 to > verify what series they are. Scott Chatsfield argued the following on the diesel modeler's list: The system (Derrick) listed is the old single-magnitude system. [] I divide NW2s into two primary phases, based on the shape of the hood and the presence of frame "falsies." Stacks and louvers were too easy to change. [] So Phase One has the two-step hood taper and "falsies." Phase Twos don't have either. It also appears that all Phase Twos were built at Cleveland. [] The first NW2s had much simpler handrails that didn't extend down into the stepwells. Most of these had their handrails modified within a few years. The short stacks lasted into the early war years, although a few may have been built with straight extensions. The conical stack came after the war, followed by unbroken louvers, then gapped louvers, then the simple taper and finally the frame falsies were left off. There was also a minor change in the walkway decking that I've never quite been able to figure out. The SW7 replaced the NW2 soon afterward (mid-49). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:47:56 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR B6sb Update Gary, That's a fantastic job. I hope you can put some verbiage with it and turn it into an article (for the Keystone, of course). John Ryan Gary Mittner wrote: > Lists, > > Below are several pics as to what the 1:29th Scale B6sb looks like > as of right now. Just 2 more detail items to attach (Brake Shoes & Leaf > Springs) to the loco and it would appear to be finished, minus some > finishing work on rods. > Work on the Tender can now proceed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:03:52 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Produce Terminal (Baltimore) Al/George/Group Speaking of trains operations in Baltimore. Symbol freight BP-108 (Potomac Yard to Baltimore) consisted of several blocks classified: 1. Loudon Park-Gwynns Run; 2. PRR Produce Terminal-Balto; 3. Highland Yard; 4. Canton (empties); 5. Canton (loads). At Gwynns Run, BP-108 would set off blocks 1 and 2. Question: How were the set offs moved to the Produce Terminal? Was and Extra assigned to pull the cars through B&P tunnel on to A track in the station? Then would the Extra run around his train and pull the cars across the interlocking up the Northern Central and then proceed to push the train into the Produce Terminal? Or would the train be pushed or pulled up the Highline? This information was found in a "Maryland Division-Time Table of Freight Trains, November 23, 1949." Thanks, Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS (Modeling the PRR in Baltimore, of course) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:31:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K4 --part1_1cb.931fee.2b60ca10_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary I sent an answer to Jerry but neglected to info the list. I purchased a set about 10 years ago shortly after buying the engine. They are from "Wagon Custom Products 180 Parke Ave, Amityville NY 11701". They are specifically for the K-4 Steamline with "Bronze" paint. I may have another set around if I can locate my decals. FYI. Steve Keough --part1_1cb.931fee.2b60ca10_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary
  I sent an answer to Jerry but neglected to info the list.  I purchased a set about 10 years ago shortly after buying the engine.  They are from "Wagon Custom Products 180 Parke Ave, Amityville NY 11701".  They are specifically for the K-4 Steamline with "Bronze" paint.  I may have another set around if I can locate my decals.  FYI.  
                                                                                            Steve Keough --part1_1cb.931fee.2b60ca10_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR B6sb Update Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:06:45 -0000 Gary, It looks like you have done a fantistic job! Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR B6sb Update > Lists, > > Below are several pics as to what the 1:29th Scale B6sb looks like > as of right now. Just 2 more detail items to attach (Brake Shoes & Leaf > Springs) to the loco and it would appear to be finished, minus some > finishing work on rods. > Work on the Tender can now proceed. > > Firemans side: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000850.jpg > > Engineers side: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000853.jpg > > Complete coverage of the Project: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html > > PS: > > Sadly, the running ability isn't quite up to the quality I was > looking for, Yet. You just can't do good work with hand tools when it > comes to a smooth chassis. Work is now being planned for a better > chassis with the help of a machinist and his workshop. Chassis main core > will now be of Aluminum, not Styrene.......More in a few > weeks....Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Grades on Model Railroad advice Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:56:34 +0000 Guys: I am currently putting in the following vertical alignment on my layout: I have an grade on my HO scale mainline of 1.35% which runs for 23 lineal feet. There are two horizontal curves on this grade but I have maximized their radii to about 45 inches. The track that I will be using on these curves is Precision Scale's superelevated flex track whose gauge is slightly widened (as per NMRA) to allow for wide wheel bases on curves. I am yet to run something on this alignment (roadbed and track are yet to be installed) but I am now wondering if this is too steep especially for steam. I will be running passenger trains approximately 10-15 cars long. The cars would be of the weight of Rivarossi/Walthers cars. The steam engines will consist of Bowser/BLI/Brass (with some weight added). In regards to freight, I will be running both steam and diesel. I would assume that the typical freight train length would be 20-30 cars long and have the standard weight per car a la Athearn. In either case, I doubt if I will have trouble with 2-3 diesel units made of Athearn/Kato/P2K engines, but I have suspicions regarding steam engines. Has anyone had any good or bad experiences in regards to vertical grades? Have any of you put in grades steeper than 1.35% and saw a significant drop in performance? I do not have a helix but have any of you had grades on helices steeper than 1.35%? Any information or feedback that you can provide me would be greatly appreciated. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:59:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR FXL, FGR, FGRA ORER help Evening y'all, Once upon a time, the PRR modified some of its XL boxcars and some composite gons (GR and GRA) to flat cars to create classes FXL, FGR and FGRA. Many of these were used in company service, however in perusing the January 1943 ORER last night I found a listing for class FGR, #472899-472998. There was no listing for FXL or FGRA. I wonder if any of you kind souls (with time on your hands) might check other ORERs to determine when these cars appeared, and when they were removed from revenue service. I have some suspicion that they might have made a brief appearance in revenue service at the height of the WWII flat car shortage. BTW, the FXL isn't too bad a kitbash using a Westerfield XL underframe, but the FGR and FGRA could drive you crazy since the stake pockets on the gons appear to have been removed on the flats, so you can't just use F&C or Westerfield sides, and there are a LOT of rivets! >From the artic SOUTH (its supposed to go down to 11 tonight...sheesh, this is ALABAMA!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:18:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] First Look: InterMountain N Scale PRR X38's From: Jerry Britton Just received the ready-to-run N scale AAR 50' double door box cars lettered for PRR "Circle Keystone" "AUTOMOBILES" class X38b. Twelve road numbers are offered. Notes against the prototype: There was only 1 X38b car built. The model reflects well the general X38 class, but doesn't seem to match any single subclass, at least per the equipment diagrams on Rob's site (http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X38). I warned InterMountain well in advance of this, but you know how it goes. Notes on the model: Good paint job. Good color; a hair brighter than the Red Caboose X29 counterparts. Atlas trucks and couplers, with brown wheels. Usual good detail from IM, such as raised ladders and grabs, brake wheel, etc. However, car weights only .8 oz. Being a 4" car, the NMRA suggested weight would be 1.1 oz. I placed one on the outer track of my helix...about a 2% grade. It didn't move on its own; moved well after one shot of help. By comparison, most new Atlas cars start moving on their own. The paint date on the car is "42". I've already assigned my 12 cars to train ED-4 (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/ED-4.ws4d), Detroit to Enola, with cars bound for Ford an GM in PA and NJ. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:32:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Test By Listmaster From: Jerry Britton Please pardon this test (by the Listmaster) and don't try this yourself. I am a trained (semi) professional! Installed an e-mail filter about a week ago. Been working fine. But today its been stripping out (I think) the sender address, then the filter is discarding it as SPAM, due to no valid sender. Go figure! Anyway, I just turned it off to see if that makes a difference. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:19:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Grades on Model Railroad advice We have a 40 inch radius 1.5% grade. Don't worry about a Bowser loco! :-) My M1 will pull about 36 NMRA weighted freight cars with little problem--I have never really tested its limits. Of course my 3 pound Gem J1 will do the same. My United I1 is not too far behind those two, but in our track cleaning zeal, we have somehow altered the adhesion on our grade so it is now down to about 18 cars. I haven't tested it recently. Of course the Spectrum K4s have to be doubleheaded on level track to pull anything,so they are fairly limited on the grade. Before the track cleaning my ABA F7 with only the lead Stewart unit powered would easily pull up to 24 cars up the grade. Dropped off a little now. Guys with Athearn unweighted 6-axle diesels spin the drivers with two units and 18 cars. Dunno why they don't weight them. I have an Atlas six-axle U-boat and Athearn SD40-2 with a Mashima can motor which will easily pull 36 cars up a 2.5% grade from our staging area, but just start to slip slightly on a curve on that grade. Above FWIW. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon D. Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] E bay car Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:44:12 -0500 This car shows a paint scheme applied to PRR's X-29 box cars. The one on ebay seems to be taller than an X-29. The X-29's had a low profile (13'3") and could move under the wire into Penn Station, according to the caption on page 74 of the "PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment by David R. Sweetland and Robert J. Yanosey. The lettering placement also looks about right. The photo is not clear as to the small print, so I cannot compare it to the photos I have. The cars were equipped with passenger car fittings, (steam and air signal lines), and modified freight car trucks for high speed service. According to Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment reprints of 1943 and 1953, the car number of 102397 was listed as an appropriate number. In this number series there were 167 cars listed in 1943 and 164 cars listed in 1953. There were X-29's in other number series as well. I may have missed a few , but there appeared to have been in excess of 1000 cars in service in 1953. Lastly, these cars were not REA cars. They were PRR cars dedicated to express and bulk mail service. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] E bay car > Norm Bell asked: > There is an REA car on E bay that is up today. It is an MDC box in Tuscan > with Pennsylvania on the left side and Railway Express Agency on the right > side. Aside from the car issue is this a legitimate paint scheme because I > don't recall ever seeing it before. > > > Norm, is this the car? I couldn't find any MDC car fitting your > description: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1923527878 > > Aside from the incorrect car and the fact that the lettering is poorly done, > this is a legitimate scheme - one that was applied to approximately 800 > Class X29 express boxcars between 1930 and 1954. Here's a photo of a > restored express car at the Valley Railroad Museum: > > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-xm-9495.jpg > > There's a shop photo of PRR 2185 in Brady McGuire's article in the > Summer 1998 Keystone. The reason you haven't noticed this scheme before is > because it's normally underneath a ton of grime! > > As for the auction, hope the buyer's happy with the purchase - $20.50 is > probably a bit much for a Mantua boxcar. Check your local hobby shops - you > might be able to turn a profit from someone's dead stock! > > One more thing - please include the eBay item number if you have questions > on a particular item - it makes the one in question a lot easier to find! > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:46:37 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Grades on Model Railroad advice Ted, Although powering the train is of concern, another area, which I believe could be more problematic, is the superelevation. I've heard of the superelevated flex track, but have not seen it. How much superelevation in scale inches does it have? One thing you really want to be careful of is string-lining your train while it's on the curve. I use MicroEngineering code 83 HO track and have installed a standard 3" superelevation (regardless of speed and degree of curvature) by installing the appropriate size styrene rod (equivalent of 3" scale) just inside the ties under the outer rail. I would recommend that if you use the Precision Scale elevated track that you do a thorough testing of train handling under all kinds of speed, train length and loading circumstances (heavies in forward, heavies midtrain and heavies in the back) before permanently installing it. Many years ago I installed superelevation on HO track and had stringlineing problems when starting stopped trains whilst they were on the curve. This is especially a problem if the heavier cars are on the rear of the train. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:54:48 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR FXL, FGR, FGRA ORER help Bruce, The October 1950 ORER shows the following: FGra 222 470899-471417 FGR 248 472419-472997 No FXL Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] PRR FXL, FGR, FGRA ORER help Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:20:57 -0500 Bruce Smith wrote: Once upon a time, the PRR modified some of its XL boxcars and some composite gons (GR and GRA) to flat cars to create classes FXL, FGR and FGRA. Many of these were used in company service, however in perusing the January 1943 ORER last night I found a listing for class FGR, #472899-472998. There was no listing for FXL or FGRA. I wonder if any of you kind souls (with time on your hands) might check other ORERs to determine when these cars appeared, and when they were removed from revenue service. Went through my PRR 1927-1950 and January 1955 CD-ROMs from Westerfield - here's what I found: Jan 1942: None Apr 1943: FGR, 472899-472998, 100 cars Jul 1944: FGRA, 470899-471418, 520 cars FGR, 472418-472998, 580 cars Jan 1945: FGRA, 470899-471418, 520 cars FGR, 472418-472998, 580 cars Jan 1946: FGRA, 470899-471418, 520 cars FGR, 472418-472998, 579 cars Oct 1947: FGRA, 470899-471418, 516 cars FGR, 472418-472998, 570 cars Jan 1948: FGRA, 470899-471418, 515 cars FGR, 472418-472998, 566 cars Oct 1949: FGRA, 470899-471418, 447 cars FGR, 472418-472997, 470 cars Jan 1955: FGRA, 470899-471417, 33 cars FGR, 472419-472987, 63 cars No Class FXL listed in revenue service during any year. Turns out there were more than a few of these cars, and they lasted into the 1950s (though in steadily decreasing numbers). If we find some photos of the cars in revenue service and can get someone to make new masters for the sides to provide Al Westerfield, we're in business! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam books Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:19:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0166_01C2C32D.75977500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeremy Helms asked: Also in a response to a previous post I had submitted someone had = suggested Sunshine models for resin kits, is there an address for them = to get a product listing?=20 Sunshine Models Box 4997 Springfield MO 65805-4997 An all-time list of Sunshine's kits can be found at=20 http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20products/sunshine/sunkits1= 22002main.html Kits known to be discontinued are marked on the list. Check = availability with Sunshine for kits not discontinued which have been on = the market for several years. Send a SASE to Sunshine and Martin Lofton will send you his latest = flyers. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0166_01C2C32D.75977500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeremy Helms asked:
Also in a response to a previous post I had submitted someone had = suggested=20 Sunshine models for resin kits, is there an address for them to get a = product=20 listing? 
 
 
Sunshine Models
Box 4997
Springfield MO 65805-4997
 
An all-time list of Sunshine's kits can be found at 
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20pr= oducts/sunshine/sunkits122002main.html
 
Kits known to be discontinued are marked on the list.  Check=20 availability with Sunshine for kits not discontinued which have been on = the=20 market for several years.
Send a SASE to Sunshine and Martin Lofton will send you his = latest=20 flyers.
 
 
Ben Hom 
------=_NextPart_000_0166_01C2C32D.75977500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:39:55 -0500 Barry Peltier asked: I don't have the RPI website address any longer, and I think they've begun charging a nominal fee for monthly access, but still a might good asset for building a freight car fleet. Perhaps someone could advise? Information on subscribing to the RPI website are at: http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/Site-membership.asp The cost is $7 per month or one year for $50. When you consider the amount of information that you get from a magazine subscription against what you pay per month, the information found on this website is worth many times the cost of the subscription. Check it out - you won't be disappointed. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:00:35 -0500 Bill Daniels wrote: Don't forget that Tichy offers a USRA boxcar kit, which were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used to make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield still offers theirs. Decals for Class X26 Boxcars: Walthers: PRR, 934-77150 (NK3, NK4, CK) Champ: PRR, HB-40 (NK3, NK4, CK) Westerfield: PRR/PL, 3306 (NK3, NK4, CK) GR&I/NYP&N, 3313 (NK3) Middle Division: HBX-6 (NK4, CK) Oddballs: 202 (NK4, CK) (Note: Any CK set can be backdated to NK4 by leaving off the Keystone.) All of these sets are very nice. The Walthers set was one of the last ones released before they scaled back their decal business; the Champ set was updated several years back with new research and artwork, and the Westerfield sets were created specifically for their kits and are very accurate. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SM" Subject: [PRR] Bill Knepper Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:53:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2C33A.A47EFB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello.... I'm sorry to hear about Bill. He had recently retired a year or so ago. He had known my dad and had helped me out a lot when i had Northern Central questions. If not for him New Freedom station might not have been restored. He showed my wife and i the inside of the station just before it (inside) was restored. He had also mentioned something about building a replica octagonal tower in New Freedom also. The current "Rail- Trail" owes a lot to him too. He'll me missed lots. Til Later Hank Mummert ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2C33A.A47EFB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello....
 
 I'm sorry to hear about Bill. He = had=20 recently
retired a year or so ago. He had known = my=20 dad
and had helped me out a lot when i = had
Northern Central questions. If not for = him=20 New
Freedom station might not have been = restored.=20 He
showed my wife and i the inside of the=20 station
just before it (inside) was restored. = He had also=20 mentioned
something about building a replica=20 octagonal
tower in New Freedom also. The current=20 "Rail-
Trail" owes a lot to him too. He'll me=20 missed
lots.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ; =20 Til Later
          &nbs= p;            = ; =20 Hank Mummert
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2C33A.A47EFB60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: [PRR] STATE Tower Tour Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 05:40:59 +0000 Recently I had the luck to be invited up into STATE tower in Harrisburg PA for a tour. I have posted some of the pics I took to a messageboard I frequent. The URL is http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=439074 I thought you guys would be especially inerested for what passes for scrap paper up in the tower. Feel free to download the pics as they will only be on my server for a week or two. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] First Look: InterMountain N Scale PRR X38's Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:07:26 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 23 Jan, Jerry Britton wrote: > Notes against the prototype: There was only 1 X38b car built. The model > reflects well the general X38 class, but doesn't seem to match any single > subclass, at least per the equipment diagrams on Rob's site > (http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X38). I warned > InterMountain well in advance of this, but you know how it goes. Yeah, I told them that when I bought my dozen as kits five or so years ago. Maybe they'll remove the 'b' when/if they run another set. If they had enough kits after five years to ship them off to China to get assembled, they may not think it worthwhile to make another batch. An X-acto knife removes the 'b' without much trouble, but I'd really like to get a real Pennsy roof for these cars. > [ ... ] However, car weights only .8 oz. Being a 4" car, the NMRA suggested > weight would be 1.1 oz. I placed one on the outer track of my helix...about > a 2% grade. It didn't move on its own; moved well after one shot of help. By > comparison, most new Atlas cars start moving on their own. The paint date on > the car is "42". Thanks to the openable doors, adding weight is easy. I used stickon weights from a local auto store when I built mine. > I've already assigned my 12 cars to train ED-4 > (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/ED-4.ws4d), Detroit to Enola, with > cars bound for Ford an GM in PA and NJ. My cars will arrive on CSB-8 ("The Champion"), whose makeup includes Detroit cars from ED-4 at Altoona. Are you planning on modelling run-throughs like CSB-8 on your layout? I wouldn't be surprised if you compressed them out, you're modelling the crossroads of the Pennsy! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 06:33:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] First Look: InterMountain N Scale PRR X38's From: Jerry Britton On 1/24/03 1:07 AM, "Dennis Rockwell" wrote: > >> I've already assigned my 12 cars to train ED-4 >> (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/ED-4.ws4d), Detroit to Enola, with >> cars bound for Ford an GM in PA and NJ. > > My cars will arrive on CSB-8 ("The Champion"), whose makeup > includes Detroit cars from ED-4 at Altoona. > > Are you planning on modelling run-throughs like CSB-8 on > your layout? I wouldn't be surprised if you compressed them > out, you're modelling the crossroads of the Pennsy! > I'll have about a dozen and a half freight run throughs. All of the consist/makeup/blocking info is on my layout web site under the "Scenario 1" link (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/). The block info comes from the Arranged Freight Service book and reflects the consist of the trains as they enter my modeled area. That is, a train from Detroit to Enola that drops the aforementioned block at Altoona would not have that block modeled. Compression...what's compression? ;-) I will compress, but not much. I expect to run 60 car freight trains. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:34:13 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Thanks Ben, there's more information, and inspriration, than a person can describe at the BNE&W site. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:02:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose --part1_174.15c57a91.2b62a163_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A wide spread misconception about this HO scale frt. car manufacturer, Red Caboose of Mead, Colorado is that they had gone strictly to producing only painted and assembled cars. Yesterday while checking their website, I noted that they listed undecorated kits for most of their cars. A quick call to them gleaned that while all of their current offerings are in finished form, that they still do get some undecorated kits with most of their orders from their supplier. Good news for those of us that do not want to spend thirty bucks for a car just to strip, redetail and paint it. Red Caboose is doing this just to see if there is some market left for their kits. If the undecorated kits wind up sitting on their shelves, then RC will discontinue them. Okay gang, for those of us doing the transistion period and the first generation diesel eras we could all do an X-24 /X-29 car or two for our road in an scheme that hasn't been offered or CNJ cars from Victor Roseman's article in the Nov. 2002 Model Railroading Journal. Now to check out Intermountain to see if they are doing the same thing or are truely only ready-to-run. I am pretty sure the answer to that one is RTR only. Evan Leisey --part1_174.15c57a91.2b62a163_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   A wide spread misconception about this HO scale frt. car manufacturer, Red Caboose of Mead, Colorado is that they had gone strictly to producing only painted and assembled cars. 

  Yesterday while checking their website, I noted that they listed undecorated kits for most of their cars.  A quick call to them gleaned that while all of their current offerings are in finished form,  that they still do get some undecorated kits with most of their orders from their supplier.  Good news for those of us that do not want to spend thirty bucks for a car just to strip,  redetail and paint it.  Red Caboose is doing this just to see if there is some market left for their kits.  If the undecorated kits wind up sitting on their shelves,  then RC will discontinue them.   Okay gang,  for those of us doing the transistion period and the first generation diesel eras we could all do an X-24 /X-29 car or two for our road in an scheme that hasn't been offered or CNJ cars from Victor Roseman's article in the Nov. 2002 Model Railroading Journal.  

  Now to check out Intermountain to see if they are doing the same thing or are truely only ready-to-run.  I am pretty sure the answer to that one is RTR only.

Evan Leisey --part1_174.15c57a91.2b62a163_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:13:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose From: Jerry Britton DISCLAIMER: Dealer comments follow! On 1/24/03 9:02 AM, RDG2124@aol.com (RDG2124@aol.com) wrote: > A wide spread misconception about this HO scale frt. car manufacturer, Red > Caboose of Mead, Colorado is that they had gone strictly to producing only > painted and assembled cars. They are doing a new run of ARA and X29 cars for February and they are offering them both as kits and RtR. Since Red Caboose started offering RtR cars a few months ago, our sales are about 50/50. > > Yesterday while checking their website, I noted that they listed undecorated > kits for most of their cars. A quick call to them gleaned that while all of > their current offerings are in finished form, that they still do get some > undecorated kits with most of their orders from their supplier. Good news for > those of us that do not want to spend thirty bucks for a car just to strip, > redetail and paint it. Red Caboose is doing this just to see if there is some > market left for their kits. If the undecorated kits wind up sitting on their > shelves, then RC will discontinue them. Okay gang, for those of us doing > the transistion period and the first generation diesel eras we could all do an > X-24 /X-29 car or two for our road in an scheme that hasn't been offered or > CNJ cars from Victor Roseman's article in the Nov. 2002 Model Railroading > Journal. It can also be noted that cars that are "in stock" now as kits, may disappear, to reappear a few months later as RtR. Yes, they have kits in stock because they haven't yet sent that particular car to the Far East to have built-up. When they do, most of the kits will disappear in the process. > > Now to check out Intermountain to see if they are doing the same thing or are > truely only ready-to-run. I am pretty sure the answer to that one is RTR > only. > InterMountain is still producing new kits. However, they typically announce one kit per 4-5 RtR offerings per month, in both HO and N scales. We hardly ever get requests for kits anymore and sell mostly RtR. While the desire to build a kit is a valid argument, those who need whole fleets of cars of IM or RC cars should consider the time it takes to build up each car. Not taking into account the discount a dealer may offer to customers, the price difference at suggested retail is $10-12. While that represents extra $$$ out of the customer's pocket, I suspect it is a good tradeoff for 3-4 hours work. I know I can't afford to build up cars for $3-4 per hour!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:10:35 -0700 Ben and all, I've got several of the Walthers decal sets (as well as some non-PRR ones as well) and they are suprisingly good...even if they are Walthers decals! Probably why Walthers had discontinued them...they had a reputation to keep up!!! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ (where it's ONLY going to be 75 today (with a low of 43 tonight...at least my tusks aren't gonna get loosa!) On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:00:35 -0500 "Benjamin Frank Hom" wrote: > Bill Daniels wrote: > Don't forget that Tichy offers a USRA boxcar kit, which > were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent > (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used > to > make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield > still offers theirs. > > Decals for Class X26 Boxcars: > Walthers: PRR, 934-77150 (NK3, NK4, CK) > Champ: PRR, HB-40 (NK3, NK4, CK) > Westerfield: PRR/PL, 3306 (NK3, NK4, CK) > GR&I/NYP&N, 3313 (NK3) > Middle Division: HBX-6 (NK4, CK) > Oddballs: 202 (NK4, CK) > > (Note: Any CK set can be backdated to NK4 by leaving off > the Keystone.) > > All of these sets are very nice. The Walthers set was > one of the last ones > released before they scaled back their decal business; > the Champ set was > updated several years back with new research and artwork, > and the > Westerfield sets were created specifically for their kits > and are very > accurate. > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:20:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose In a message dated 1/24/03 8:07:44 AM Central Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: << Now to check out Intermountain to see if they are doing the same thing or are truely only ready-to-run. I am pretty sure the answer to that one is RTR only. >> We just got the latest dealer flyer yesterday and they continue to offer kits. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:31:37 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Evan sez: >Now to check out Intermountain to see if they are doing the same thing or >are truely only ready-to-run. I am pretty sure the answer to that one is >RTR only. Evan Leisey My understanding from Marty M. is that they will continnue to offer kits, direct purchase from them only, IF they sell. The problem wiht this whole approach is, of course, that the undec kits were never the bioggest sellers and now you can't buy them on "impulse"...so the cynic in me says that the sales will justify the decision to D/C kits completely and you'd better stock up now, or look to resin. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] STATE Tower Tour From: Jerry Britton On 1/24/03 12:40 AM, "E. Mike" wrote: > Recently I had the luck to be invited up into STATE tower in Harrisburg PA > for a tour. I have posted some of the pics I took to a messageboard I > frequent. The URL is > http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=439074 I thought you > guys would be especially inerested for what passes for scrap paper up in the > tower. > > Feel free to download the pics as they will only be on my server for a week > or two. > Since Mike was only providing these for a week or so, I asked if they could be permanently added to Keystone Crossings, and he agreed. Thanks, Mike! They are in the Photos section under Harrisburg. Direct link is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/state_tour/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:51:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] STATE Tower Tour Those are some great shots of the inner workings of STATE. It's hard to belive that the little box marked "STATE WEST" controls old HARRIS interlocking. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:59:23 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR] painting the axel ends Resurecting an old topic I think that the axel ends were supposed to be left unpainted, for visual inspection, though most eventually were painted. I think that it might be a good idea to leave them unpainted so that you do not, inadvertainly, insulate them at that point. BTW, did you know that most steam loco axels were hollow? In heat treating metal, most of the hardness is near the surface - so, by creating 4 heat treatable surfaces - hollow axels (tubing) could be made stronger than solid rods. So, if you do paint the axel ends - give em just a dot, in the center, to represnt this usually unmeled feature. Dick Ross Cleveland I ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:31:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Grades on Model Railroad advice In a message dated 1/23/03 6:57:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ted_andrews@msn.com writes: << I do not have a helix but have any of you had grades on helices steeper than 1.35%? >> I used 2.25% on a helix with steam and 24" radius curves in Sn3, and had no complaints with whort trains (6-8 cars). Can't comment on standard gauge implications. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:49:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 and H25 hopper question on hopper bay arrangement Although it's been nearly a week, I havn't seen a real answer to this question, so I'll give you my Grandad's - who worked more than 50 years for the PRR "musta been cheaper that way." PRR (and NYC) bought pencils and erasers seperately. .. It was cheaper that way. I don't think that it was to fit coal ramps, PRR dispatched 32' 2 bay hoppers (50 ton cars) to retail dealers. Many of them WOULD probably have had problems with 40' 70 ton cars regardless of the type, hopper arangement or maker. I also don't think that it was an issue of "capacity" - If that were a concern PRR, would have had at least some "offset" side cars. The only differences between offset side cars and rib side cars was a few cubic yards of capacity and whether you put the steel sheathing inside or outside the car's upright ribs. The cars were both 70 ton cars, and usually both types carried the same weight away from the tipple, and WEIGHT X distance, not cubic yards, was what the RR was selling. I do not believe either type could carry sand, stone or clay "heaped" Offset side cars could carry a bit more of lighter cargos, each trip, but were a bit more expensive to build and because the load was trying to tear the sides off, not pressing them against the ribs, required more frequent and more expensive maintenance. Ignore plastic model hoppers, in it's entire history PRR only ever had ONE (1) offset side hopper car - the one of a kind 6 bay experimental H-27 class. I "usta" wonder about Pennsy's extensive use of circular windows - they must have been more expensive to make, unless they had someone casting circular glass, but someone gave me the real reason: supported equally, all the way round, they were a lot harder to break, less maintenance, less downtime. So, until someone has the real answer I'll give you two: 1) Just Pennsy being Pennsy - and figuring that everybody else had it wrong, or my Granddads: 2) Musta been cheaper that way......... somewhere, somehow. \ Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:46:29 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] T1 in Hamilton OH In a message dated 1/22/03 9:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Docfrockrail writes: > Subj:Re: T1 in Columbus? > Date:1/22/03 9:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time > From:Docfrockrail > To:RickTipton > > > > we are speaking about the sharp curve just west of the former PRR Depot in > Hamilton, Ohio. About mp 30 + or - a little bit. This is the Cincinnati - > Richmond Ind line which was controled by a CTC board in the west end of the > Hamilton Depot. > The grade is just east of the Hamilton Depot and the east bound trains > were the ones that used to hang up once in a while. > > Dan Finfrock Dan (and Jon, Roger, et al), With help from all of you, I believe we're finally "on the same page". We've been confusing ourselves and all readers by jumping around from Cincinnati to Columbus to Hamilton under the single subject "T1 in Columbus". Roger Rassche reminds me that the current (now N&W) trackage at Hamilton is a post- 1976 rearrangement, but the 1968 track chart plots the PRR-era alignment with that 13 degree curve from MP 30.8 to MP 31.0. The setting of all this is Hamilton Ohio (an industrial city on the Great Miami River, separated by some miles of uplands from the valleys of Cincinnati) The line is the PRR Richmond Branch from Chicago coming off a short stretch of B&O trackage rights at Old River Junction (MP 31.5), turning from approximate geographic south to east around the curve cited, and the PRR's station being immediately off the curve at MP 30.7. Since then, Dan has pinpointed a larger operational problem in Hamilton than that sharp curve. He says that the real pain was eastbound -- a departing train hit the 0.8 percent grade at High Street (by the station), which stiffened to 1.00 percent about the middle of the yard. This flattened out before the overpass for the Miami & Erie Canal (Erie Avenue?), but this was a tough grade to pull with a train from a standing start at the station. As Dan says, "The T-1 locos sure could run, however they were slippery as all get out in getting a train up to speed. The train would leave the station at 7th St. and only have a few hundred yards before they hit the grade. I have seen the big T-1s hit that grade and spin out of control loosing complete traction. Usually they would back to High Street and get more of a run, however I have seen the local switch crew get the little 0-6-0 switcher on the rear and give just enough of a shove that the train would make it. By the time the switcher hit Maple Ave crossing her little drivers would be flying. They would cut off just past the Erie Ave bridge. K-4s had no trouble but their stack noise was thundering." BTW, the "ruling grades" marked on the 1968 track chart for the line segment Glen (Richmond) to Red Bank (Cincinnati) are near the line's end points. The eastbound ruling grade is a 0.90 incline that's part of the climb out of Glen (MP 72.4 to 69.0). The westbound ruling grade is a 0.93% climb through Oakley and Norwood Heights (most of MP 9 to MP 11). Incidentally, I believe this particular link in the Richmond Branch from Red Bank OH (suburban Cincinnati, on the Little Miami RR) to Hamilton was built by PRR interests circa 1888, replacing trackage rights to Cincinnati down B&O predecessor Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton (later B&O's Toledo Division). Like many Lines West routes, the traffic was heavy enough for signaling updates, but never heavy enough to justify a PRR-style rebuilding for grade reduction. More to come on the passenger trains on this line... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:46:29 EST Subject: [PRR] T1 in Hamilton OH --part1_12b.210c4811.2b636295_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/03 9:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Docfrockrail writes: > Subj:Re: T1 in Columbus? > Date:1/22/03 9:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time > From:Docfrockrail > To:RickTipton > > > > we are speaking about the sharp curve just west of the former PRR Depot in > Hamilton, Ohio. About mp 30 + or - a little bit. This is the Cincinnati - > Richmond Ind line which was controled by a CTC board in the west end of the > Hamilton Depot. > The grade is just east of the Hamilton Depot and the east bound trains > were the ones that used to hang up once in a while. > > Dan Finfrock Dan (and Jon, Roger, et al), With help from all of you, I believe we're finally "on the same page". We've been confusing ourselves and all readers by jumping around from Cincinnati to Columbus to Hamilton under the single subject "T1 in Columbus". Roger Rassche reminds me that the current (now N&W) trackage at Hamilton is a post- 1976 rearrangement, but the 1968 track chart plots the PRR-era alignment with that 13 degree curve from MP 30.8 to MP 31.0. The setting of all this is Hamilton Ohio (an industrial city on the Great Miami River, separated by some miles of uplands from the valleys of Cincinnati) The line is the PRR Richmond Branch from Chicago coming off a short stretch of B&O trackage rights at Old River Junction (MP 31.5), turning from approximate geographic south to east around the curve cited, and the PRR's station being immediately off the curve at MP 30.7. Since then, Dan has pinpointed a larger operational problem in Hamilton than that sharp curve. He says that the real pain was eastbound -- a departing train hit the 0.8 percent grade at High Street (by the station), which stiffened to 1.00 percent about the middle of the yard. This flattened out before the overpass for the Miami & Erie Canal (Erie Avenue?), but this was a tough grade to pull with a train from a standing start at the station. As Dan says, "The T-1 locos sure could run, however they were slippery as all get out in getting a train up to speed. The train would leave the station at 7th St. and only have a few hundred yards before they hit the grade. I have seen the big T-1s hit that grade and spin out of control loosing complete traction. Usually they would back to High Street and get more of a run, however I have seen the local switch crew get the little 0-6-0 switcher on the rear and give just enough of a shove that the train would make it. By the time the switcher hit Maple Ave crossing her little drivers would be flying. They would cut off just past the Erie Ave bridge. K-4s had no trouble but their stack noise was thundering." BTW, the "ruling grades" marked on the 1968 track chart for the line segment Glen (Richmond) to Red Bank (Cincinnati) are near the line's end points. The eastbound ruling grade is a 0.90 incline that's part of the climb out of Glen (MP 72.4 to 69.0). The westbound ruling grade is a 0.93% climb through Oakley and Norwood Heights (most of MP 9 to MP 11). Incidentally, I believe this particular link in the Richmond Branch from Red Bank OH (suburban Cincinnati, on the Little Miami RR) to Hamilton was built by PRR interests circa 1888, replacing trackage rights to Cincinnati down B&O predecessor Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton (later B&O's Toledo Division). Like many Lines West routes, the traffic was heavy enough for signaling updates, but never heavy enough to justify a PRR-style rebuilding for grade reduction. More to come on the passenger trains on this line... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_12b.210c4811.2b636295_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/03 9:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Docfrockrail writes:


Subj:Re: T1 in Columbus?
Date:1/22/03 9:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:Docfrockrail
To:RickTipton



we are speaking about the sharp curve just west of the former PRR Depot in Hamilton, Ohio.  About mp 30 + or - a little bit.  This is the Cincinnati - Richmond Ind line which was controled by a CTC board in the west end of the Hamilton Depot.
  The grade is just east of the Hamilton Depot and the east bound trains were the ones that used to hang up once in a while.

                           Dan Finfrock


Dan (and Jon, Roger, et al),

With help from all of you, I believe we're finally "on the same page".  We've been confusing ourselves and all readers by jumping around from Cincinnati to Columbus to Hamilton under the single subject "T1 in Columbus". 

Roger Rassche reminds me that the current (now N&W) trackage at Hamilton is a post- 1976 rearrangement, but the 1968 track chart plots the PRR-era alignment with that 13 degree curve from MP 30.8 to MP 31.0. 

The setting of all this is Hamilton Ohio (an industrial city on the Great Miami River, separated by some miles of uplands from the valleys of Cincinnati)  The line is the PRR Richmond Branch from Chicago coming off a short stretch of B&O trackage rights at Old River Junction (MP 31.5), turning from approximate geographic south to east around the curve cited, and the PRR's station being immediately off the curve at MP 30.7. 

Since then, Dan has pinpointed a larger operational problem in Hamilton than that sharp curve.  He says that the real pain was eastbound -- a departing train hit the 0.8 percent grade at High Street (by the station), which stiffened to 1.00 percent about the middle of the yard.  This flattened out before the overpass for the Miami & Erie Canal (Erie Avenue?), but this was a tough grade to pull with a train from a standing start at the station.

As Dan says,

"The T-1 locos sure could run, however they were slippery as all get out in getting a train up to speed.  The train would leave the station at 7th St. and only have a few hundred yards before they hit the grade.  I have seen the big T-1s hit that grade and spin out of control loosing complete traction. Usually they would back to High Street and get more of a run, however I have seen the local switch crew get the little 0-6-0 switcher on the rear and give just enough of a shove that the train would make it.  By the time the switcher hit Maple Ave crossing her little drivers would be flying.  They would cut off just past the Erie Ave bridge.  K-4s had no trouble but their stack noise was thundering."

BTW, the "ruling grades" marked on the 1968 track chart for the line segment Glen (Richmond) to Red Bank (Cincinnati) are near the line's end points.  The eastbound ruling grade is a 0.90 incline that's part of the climb out of Glen (MP 72.4 to 69.0).  The westbound ruling grade is a 0.93% climb through Oakley and Norwood Heights (most of MP 9 to MP 11).

Incidentally, I believe this particular link in the Richmond Branch from Red Bank OH (suburban Cincinnati, on the Little Miami RR) to Hamilton was built by PRR interests circa 1888, replacing trackage rights to Cincinnati down B&O predecessor Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton (later B&O's Toledo Division).  Like many Lines West routes, the traffic was heavy enough for signaling updates, but never heavy enough to justify a PRR-style rebuilding for grade reduction.

More to come on the passenger trains on this line...
                                                                             
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_12b.210c4811.2b636295_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Never say never for B6sb cylinder slant Hello list, I was rereading Don Wood's I Rememeber Pennsy yesterday. On page 64, there's a photo of B6sb 1733. According to Edson's PRR All-Time Steam Roster, she was built by Juniata in October 1916 and dropped from the roster in October 1956. What makes this photo especially interesting is that this engine (one of the early B6sb) has the outward slanting cylinders of the later built B6sb (1924-26). Some possibilities for this: 1. PRR replaced the orginal cylinders on this engine with new cylinders as part of a heavy overhaul. 2. PRR replaced the original cylinders on this engine with parts from a newer, but retired sister from the later production groups. Every time I do research, I learn more.....and I'm learning never to say never as far as the PRR is concerned. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Produce Terminal (Baltimore) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:36:47 -0500 Ken, The PPT in Baltimore was my responsibliity as a PRR Sales Rep. in 1965-1966. There was a third trick shifter as I recall that went to Gwynn's Run and got the reefers from the South. How he made his moves through the station trackage I have no idea, but there weren't many passenger schedules at that hour of the night! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Meyer" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "George Pitz" ; "Al Buchan" Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Produce Terminal (Baltimore) > Al/George/Group > > Speaking of trains operations in Baltimore. Symbol freight BP-108 > (Potomac Yard to Baltimore) consisted of several blocks classified: 1. > Loudon Park-Gwynns Run; 2. PRR Produce Terminal-Balto; 3. Highland Yard; > 4. Canton (empties); 5. Canton (loads). At Gwynns Run, BP-108 would set > off blocks 1 and 2. > > Question: How were the set offs moved to the Produce Terminal? Was and > Extra assigned to pull the cars through B&P tunnel on to A track in the > station? Then would the Extra run around his train and pull the cars > across the interlocking up the Northern Central and then proceed to push > the train into the Produce Terminal? Or would the train be pushed or > pulled up the Highline? > > This information was found in a "Maryland Division-Time Table of Freight > Trains, November 23, 1949." > > Thanks, > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS > (Modeling the PRR in Baltimore, of course) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone reference file Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:16:06 +0000 Has anyone ever attempted to compile an authoritative reference file concernig the articles and pictures in the Keystones? Is such a thing avaialable? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks Gary looking at pages 260 and 261 of Volume 4 - Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units of the Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, The ABF-18 units have the same trucks as the other RF-16 units. However looking at Volume 6, the Alco Cab units had similar trucks. I don't know if the wheelbase of the trucks were different.Someone else will have to answer that one. Brian C "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:44:12 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] F unit antenna stanchions Hi All, I posted last week looking for F Unit antenna stanchion information. A few replied that they know of no official drawings. So I took it upon myself to try it this way. I scanned the roof section of this EMD Builders photo at a HIGH dpi. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_F3_Set.jpg (I will be offering this photo for sale on the 30th) I got this. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/F3_roof.jpg You may have to download and save it to view it. I compared a known horizontal measurement (rear to the door) from the photo to my brass and plastic S Scale models. The downloaded photo will probably not be to true S scale anymore. I put the real measurements in inches that are the photo to true S Scale and the roof of my Overland F3. I am trying to see who is the least wrong. Any ideas? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:52:35 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Train communications in the 40's Group, It is my understanding that the trainphone did not work under catenary. Besides the use of lineside telephones and written train orders. How did train crews and block operators communicate along the mainline between Philadelphia and Washington if the train was experiencing a problem? Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:23:00 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] the Carryphone Hi All, A question was recently asked about trainphone communications. Here is a photo that I recently won on Ebay. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/carryphone.jpg It is the great great granddaddy of your cell phone! Chuck Blardone called it the Carryphone. I think the brakeman is either being told to eeeck out a smile, or is in pain from having this huge thing on his shoulder. I can't imagine Union Switch sold many of these. This photo will be in an upcoming issue of the Phila. Chapter Highline. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:18:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks Lists, I was wondering about a specific detail on the PRR BF 15 or 16? Sharks. I recall reading that the PRR took several Baldwin Shark units and upgraded/repowered them with Alco equipment sometime in the early 1960's. When they did this, did they attach the Alco Trucks as well or kept the Baldwins Trucks? Reason I ask is once I am finished with my 1:29th B6sb I may try my hand at a Shark. I know no Baldwin Trucks are available in 1:29th but Alco (RS3 and FA"s Trucks are). This could make my project much easier or do-able if I don't have to scratch build trucks. Please advise if possible. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:16:03 -0500 Gary looking at pages 260 and 261 of Volume 4 - Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units of the Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, The ABF-18 units have the same trucks as the other RF-16 units. However looking at Volume 6, the Alco Cab units had similar trucks. I don't know if the wheelbase of the trucks were different.Someone else will have to answer that one. Brian C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: ; Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 12:18 PM Subject: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks > Lists, > > I was wondering about a specific detail on the PRR BF 15 or 16? > Sharks. I recall reading that the PRR took several Baldwin Shark units > and upgraded/repowered them with Alco equipment sometime in the early > 1960's. When they did this, did they attach the Alco Trucks as well or > kept the Baldwins Trucks? Reason I ask is once I am finished with my > 1:29th B6sb I may try my hand at a Shark. I know no Baldwin Trucks are > available in 1:29th but Alco (RS3 and FA"s Trucks are). This could make > my project much easier or do-able if I don't have to scratch build > trucks. Please advise if possible. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:36:09 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, Brian J Carlson wrote: > Gary looking at pages 260 and 261 of Volume 4 - Baldwin Cab and Transfer > Units of the Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, The ABF-18 > units have the same trucks as the other RF-16 units. However looking at > Volume 6, the Alco Cab units had similar trucks. I don't know if the > wheelbase of the trucks were different.Someone else will have to answer that > one. The Baldwin trucks had 9'10" wheelbases to accomodate their larger Westinghouse motors. The Alcos had GE motors and were 9'4" wheelbase. The Westinghouse-motored variant also had 4 leaf springs instead of 3. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:49:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Battery Box Car --part1_15.83d297a.2b65a3c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, I have the Red Caboose kit for the gray colored X29 box car dedicated to battery service. I need references to determine when this car was in us, the brake equipment type on the end, and the location of the tack boards. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Evan Leisey --part1_15.83d297a.2b65a3c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

   I have the Red Caboose kit for the gray colored X29 box car dedicated to battery service.  I need references to determine when this car was in us,  the brake equipment type on the end, and the location of the tack boards.

  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey --part1_15.83d297a.2b65a3c7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: davep Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:02:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Train communications in the 40's > It is my understanding that the trainphone did not work > under catenary. It worked just fine, where fitted. Among other things, Trainphone used FM. Arguably, it worked TOO well: All the 'knitting' caused the trainphone signal to travel too far. > Besides the use of lineside telephones and written train orders. > How did train crews and block operators communicate along the mainline > between Philadelphia and Washington if the train was experiencing a > problem? Lineside telephones and tower telephones, similar to other RRs. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:02:24 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Train communications in the 40's > It is my understanding that the trainphone did not work > under catenary. It worked just fine, where fitted. Among other things, Trainphone used FM. Arguably, it worked TOO well: All the 'knitting' caused the trainphone signal to travel too far. > Besides the use of lineside telephones and written train orders. > How did train crews and block operators communicate along the mainline > between Philadelphia and Washington if the train was experiencing a > problem? Lineside telephones and tower telephones, similar to other RRs. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:31:23 -0500 Yep I rechecked the leaf springs, Derricks right, FA's 3, RF16's 4. I didn't even think to count them. Doh! Something to remember for the next time. For the record an ABA set was coverted, A units 9632-A (nee 9726-A), 9633-A (nee 2001-A), and B unit 9632-B (nee 9583-B). So anyone running the 3 original unit wouldn't be correct after Dec 1959. Gary, one good reason to model these is you could get away with only doing one of them since when rebuilt they were able to mate with other units. These is a pic of 9632-A and a F-unit on page 261 of Volume 4. Brian Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks > On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, Brian J Carlson wrote: > > > Gary looking at pages 260 and 261 of Volume 4 - Baldwin Cab and Transfer > > Units of the Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, The ABF-18 > > units have the same trucks as the other RF-16 units. However looking at > > Volume 6, the Alco Cab units had similar trucks. I don't know if the > > wheelbase of the trucks were different.Someone else will have to answer that > > one. > > The Baldwin trucks had 9'10" wheelbases to accomodate their larger > Westinghouse motors. The Alcos had GE motors and were 9'4" wheelbase. > > The Westinghouse-motored variant also had 4 leaf springs instead of 3. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:38:03 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] (Motive Power) Sharks On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, Brian J Carlson wrote: > Yep I rechecked the leaf springs, Derricks right, FA's 3, RF16's 4. I > didn't even think to count them. Doh! Something to remember for the next > time. http://diesels.dementia.org/sideframes Another of my projects that's overdue for some love. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:30:40 EST Subject: [PRR] US&S PL-4 dwarf restoration: Need help with several --part1_150.1acf5967.2b661e00_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to everyone, I'm involved with restoring a US&S PL-4 dwarf signal. It is a pre-1940's PRR style cast iron, 4 light (no colors) position signal with a slope on the left side. The signal is being completely torn apart and rebuilt. There are many questions that we need some help with, fasteners, gaskets, sealants, etc.... If anyone out there who knows these types of signals and feels they could help answer some questions, please e-mail me directly off list at: STEVEGG1@AOL.COM and I'll send the questions to you. Thanks ! Steve Panopoulos --part1_150.1acf5967.2b661e00_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to everyone,
I'm involved with restoring a US&S PL-4 dwarf signal. It is a pre-1940's PRR style cast iron, 4 light (no colors) position signal with a slope on the left side.
The signal is being completely torn apart and rebuilt. There are many questions that we need some help with, fasteners, gaskets, sealants, etc....
If anyone out there who knows these types of signals and feels they could help answer some questions, please e-mail me directly off list at: STEVEGG1@AOL.COM and I'll send the questions to you.
Thanks !
Steve Panopoulos --part1_150.1acf5967.2b661e00_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:53:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] How Was Timonium? From: Jerry Britton Anyone go to Timonium? The January show is usually the best of the four, in my opinion. Any works in progress displayed? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:40:58 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] the CarryPhone >Bill Lane wrote: > Chuck Blardone called it the Carryphone. Bill, Not only Chuck, but the PRR called it that. There is a version of this same photo, much more close up to the brakeman and he is nearer the steps of the cabin car, in the 1946 PRR Annual Report, and the caption calls it the Carryphone. Tom Hayden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:32:06 -0500 Hi Guys, Need some help. Does anyone out there have, or know of a source of PRR drawings for PRSL lettering. I need lettering size and spacing for passenger cars (P70, P70fbR), diesel locomotives (BS10, BS16ms), and steam locomotive tenders. Since we are building an "O"Scale PRSL museum quality layout at the RR Museum of South Jersey at Tuckahoe accurate lettering of equipment is critical. There are no commercially available decals for PRSL. My thought is to have custom sets made from accurate PRR lettering drawings. If anyone can help please contact.... Buzz PRRT&HS #271 Charles.Burnley@Conectiv.com Thank you!! **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:55:57 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Charles, I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:15:58 -0500 Mr. Burnley, There ARE commercially available dry transfers for PRSL equipment; steam locomotives, Diesel locomotives, passenger cars and MU cars from Clover House, P. O. Box 62, Sebastopol, CA 95473-0062. Russ Clover does not have a website. His Fax is 707-823-7301 Here's what he has in "O" 7788-01 Steam, pre-1942 7788-02 Steam, post-1942 7788-03 Baggage-Mail and Electrics 7788-04 Electric and Gas Electric 7788-05 Diesels, pre-1968 7788-06 Diesels, post-1968 7788-08 Passenger cars 1948-1973 Everything but 7788-06 are $3.25 each, 7788-06 is $4.00. Minimum order ias $20.00 plus $3.50 shipping. he does take credit cards. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burnley, Charles" To: Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:32 AM Subject: [PRR] > > Hi Guys, > > Need some help. > Does anyone out there have, or know of a source of PRR drawings for PRSL > lettering. > I need lettering size and spacing for passenger cars (P70, P70fbR), diesel > locomotives (BS10, BS16ms), and > steam locomotive tenders. > Since we are building an "O"Scale PRSL museum quality layout at the RR > Museum of South Jersey at Tuckahoe > accurate lettering of equipment is critical. There are no commercially > available decals for PRSL. My thought is to > have custom sets made from accurate PRR lettering drawings. > If anyone can help please contact.... > > Buzz PRRT&HS #271 > Charles.Burnley@Conectiv.com > > Thank you!! > **************************************************************************** > This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, > privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or > its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of > the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient > of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, > copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments > to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete > the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy > expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements > and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email > communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such > communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any > damages or other liability so arising. > **************************************************************************** > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:13:58 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Champ makes HO decals Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Charles, > I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:56:45 -0500 Andy, Champ is EXACTLY the reason I would prefer to have custom sets made. Their HO line is about the only game in town, and they dont make "O". However their HO sets are just plain wrong! (cabin car sets excluded) The basic set, I believe was for Steam Locomotive tenders. All other sets were simply copies of this layout in different colors and different package names. Diesel, Passenger Car, RDC, etc. The damn things are entirely too short for any application other than the steam tender, and I'm not to sure about that, as I've never done a PRSL steam engine. Having lettered (2) scale length RDC cars (not Athearn) by cutting and re-spacing each letter got real old, real fast! Their "O"Scale stuff (for PRR locomotives) ain't much better. Too tall, too fat, etc. Hope I didn't offend anyone. Champ has been around for a long time and makes a good product...except in this case. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:14 AM To: BPX29@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Champ makes HO decals Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Charles, > I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: FW: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:23:38 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C628.D48F2E60 Content-Type: text/plain If anyone would be interested, I believe the PRSL employed Baldwin DS-4-4-1000's ? There are a few of these still in active service with PennJersey rail lines, one is always sitting at Penn Warner industrial park off near Morrisville. Not good for the paint scheme for the PRSL, but good for details as I think this one comes from the PRSL Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles [mailto:Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com] Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:57 AM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Andy, Champ is EXACTLY the reason I would prefer to have custom sets made. Their HO line is about the only game in town, and they dont make "O". However their HO sets are just plain wrong! (cabin car sets excluded) The basic set, I believe was for Steam Locomotive tenders. All other sets were simply copies of this layout in different colors and different package names. Diesel, Passenger Car, RDC, etc. The damn things are entirely too short for any application other than the steam tender, and I'm not to sure about that, as I've never done a PRSL steam engine. Having lettered (2) scale length RDC cars (not Athearn) by cutting and re-spacing each letter got real old, real fast! Their "O"Scale stuff (for PRR locomotives) ain't much better. Too tall, too fat, etc. Hope I didn't offend anyone. Champ has been around for a long time and makes a good product...except in this case. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:14 AM To: BPX29@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Champ makes HO decals Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Charles, > I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know > Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C628.D48F2E60 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL

If anyone would be interested, I believe the PRSL = employed Baldwin DS-4-4-1000's ?
There are a few of these still in active service = with PennJersey rail lines, one is always sitting at Penn Warner = industrial park off near Morrisville.    Not good for = the paint scheme for the PRSL, but good for details as I think this one = comes from the PRSL

Kenny


-----Original Message-----
From: Burnley, Charles [mailto:Charles.Burnley@cone= ctiv.com]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:57 AM
To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com'
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL


Andy,

Champ is EXACTLY the reason I would prefer to have = custom sets made. Their HO line is about the only game in town, and = they dont make "O". However their HO sets are just plain = wrong! (cabin car sets excluded)

The basic set, I believe was for Steam Locomotive = tenders. All other sets
were simply copies of this layout in different = colors and different package names.
Diesel, Passenger Car, RDC, etc. The damn things are = entirely too short for any application other than the steam tender, and = I'm not to sure about that, as I've never done a PRSL steam engine. = Having lettered (2) scale length RDC cars (not

Athearn) by cutting and re-spacing each letter got = real old, real fast! Their "O"Scale stuff (for PRR = locomotives) ain't much better. Too tall, too fat, etc. Hope I didn't = offend anyone. Champ has been around for a long time and makes a good = product...except in this case.

Buzz



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org]=
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:14 AM
To: BPX29@aol.com
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL


Champ makes HO decals

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

BPX29@aol.com wrote:

> Charles,
> I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals = either, but I know
> Clover
House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They = cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. = I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than = nothing.

> Regards,
> Barry Peltier
>
> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--




---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
***************************************************************= *************
This e-mail and any attachment may contain = information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential  or = subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries = (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to = which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient of = this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, = distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents = of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be = unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please = notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and = any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Conectiv policy = expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive = statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by = email communications.  Conectiv will not accept any liability in = respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be = personally liable for any damages or other liability so = arising.

***************************************************************= *************


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C628.D48F2E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:37:53 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? --0-509447086-1043689073=:66420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does Clover House have a web site? When I do a Google search, all I get is a reference to a charitable organization of the same name. Randy Harrison BPX29@aol.com wrote:Charles, I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-509447086-1043689073=:66420 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Does Clover House have a web site? When I do a Google search, all I get is a reference to a charitable organization of the same name.

Randy Harrison

 BPX29@aol.com wrote:

Charles,
I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-509447086-1043689073=:66420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:50:27 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C62C.939DD3D0 Content-Type: text/plain http://www.railwayeng.com/dspp/cdsleter.htm Kenny Does Clover House have a web site? When I do a Google search, all I get is a reference to a charitable organization of the same name. Randy Harrison BPX29@aol.com wrote: Charles, I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C62C.939DD3D0 Content-Type: text/html Message
 
 

 Kenny 

Does Clover House have a web site? When I do a Google search, all I get is a reference to a charitable organization of the same name.

Randy Harrison

 BPX29@aol.com wrote:

Charles,
I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C62C.939DD3D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:31:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? --part1_57.1729a76b.2b66d4ee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more people could see what they offer...Bill Donahue --part1_57.1729a76b.2b66d4ee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more people could see what they offer...Bill Donahue --part1_57.1729a76b.2b66d4ee_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:32:39 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? --0-1666606869-1043692359=:27289 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii So, how do I contact them? Randy Harrison BillyDee53@aol.com wrote:No they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more people could see what they offer...Bill Donahue --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1666606869-1043692359=:27289 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

So, how do I contact them?

Randy Harrison

 BillyDee53@aol.com wrote:

No they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more people could see what they offer...Bill Donahue


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1666606869-1043692359=:27289-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:54:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? --part1_1db.f4fec3.2b66da6a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick web search turned up: Clover House Box 62M Sebastopol, Ca 95473-0062 They also advertise in Model Railroader. Their catalog #10 is $5.00 Bill --part1_1db.f4fec3.2b66da6a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick web search turned up:
Clover House
Box 62M
Sebastopol, Ca
95473-0062
They also advertise in Model Railroader. 
Their catalog #10 is $5.00
Bill --part1_1db.f4fec3.2b66da6a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:57:14 -0500 Randy, Info I got from Gregg Mahlkov; Clover House P.O. Box 62 Sebastopol, CA 95473-0062 Fax: 707-823-7301 Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Randolph Harrison [mailto:hbcrandy@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:33 PM To: BillyDee53@aol.com; BPX29@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? So, how do I contact them? Randy Harrison BillyDee53@aol.com wrote: No they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more people could see what they offer...Bill Donahue _____ Do you Yahoo!? HYPERLINK "http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com"Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. HYPERLINK "http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com"Sign up now **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:48:34 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2C613.2AA48AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, Since the United Staes Postal Service is still delivering mail, Russ = Clover prefers to deal that way. I did also funish a Fax number if you = absolutely can't wait for the mails. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randolph Harrison=20 To: BillyDee53@aol.com ; BPX29@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? So, how do I contact them?=20 Randy Harrison=20 BillyDee53@aol.com wrote:=20 No they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more = people could see what they offer...Bill Donahue=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2C613.2AA48AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy,
 
Since the United Staes Postal Service is still = delivering=20 mail, Russ Clover prefers to deal that way. I did also funish a Fax = number if=20 you absolutely can't wait for the mails.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randolph=20 Harrison
To: BillyDee53@aol.com ; BPX29@aol.com = ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House = Dry=20 Transfer Lettering?

So, how do I contact them?=20

Randy Harrison=20

 BillyDee53@aol.com = wrote:=20 No=20 they don't, unfortunately...their sales would skyrocket if more = people could=20 see what they offer...Bill Donahue


Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2C613.2AA48AE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:46:00 -0800 From: Ken Douglas Subject: [PRR] P-RSL Baldwin Switchers The P-RSL did not have any Baldwin DS 4-4-1000 units on their roster. They had one Baldwin S-8 and a number of S-12 units. The PRR did lease Baldwin switchers from time to time although the only specific case was PRR DS 4-4-660 number 9000, which burned on the P-RSL and was retired by the PRR Ken Douglas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:55:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C2C614.1C386A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageKenny, C-D-S Lettering is NOT Clover House. The first is in Nepean, ON, Canada, = the other is in Sebastopol, California! You might say they are = competitors, but their lines don't overlap that much. Gregg Mahlkov BTW, I have used dry transfers from both. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KNesbitt@penncro.com=20 To: hbcrandy@yahoo.com ; BPX29@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:50 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? http://www.railwayeng.com/dspp/cdsleter.htm Kenny=20 Does Clover House have a web site? When I do a Google search, all I = get is a reference to a charitable organization of the same name.=20 Randy Harrison=20 BPX29@aol.com wrote:=20 Charles, I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know = Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam = engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer = decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. Regards, Barry Peltier = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C2C614.1C386A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Kenny,
 
C-D-S Lettering is NOT Clover House. The first is in = Nepean,=20 ON, Canada, the other is in Sebastopol, California! You might say they = are=20 competitors, but their lines don't overlap that much.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
 
BTW, I have used dry transfers from = both.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KNesbitt@penncro.com
To: hbcrandy@yahoo.com ; BPX29@aol.com = ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 = 12:50=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Clover House = Dry=20 Transfer Lettering?

http://www.railwayen= g.com/dspp/cdsleter.htm
 
 

 Kenny 

Does Clover House have a web site? When I do a Google search, all = I get=20 is a reference to a charitable organization of the same name.=20

Randy Harrison=20

 BPX29@aol.com=20 wrote:=20 Charles,
I=20 can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know = Clover=20 House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam = engines,=20 passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals = myself,=20 but dry transfers are a lot better than = nothing.
Regards,
Barry=20 = Peltier

----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o!=20 Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now
------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C2C614.1C386A20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:53:43 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 --0-1306270594-1043697223=:93457 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is this an accurate model of a PRR prototype, either the crane (or should I say derrick) or the boom car? What about the paint scheme? It would seem to me that the crane should be all black, and that cranes were never painted either grey or yellow. If model is indeed accurate, what were the classes of the equipment and possible numbers? And speaking of MOW equipment, did the PRR ever have Jordan spreaders like the one offered by Walthers in HO? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1306270594-1043697223=:93457 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Is this an accurate model of a PRR prototype, either the crane (or should I say derrick) or the boom car?  What about the paint scheme?  It would seem to me that the crane should be all black, and that cranes were never painted either grey or yellow.  If model is indeed accurate, what were the classes of the equipment and possible numbers?  And speaking of MOW equipment, did the PRR ever have Jordan spreaders like the one offered by Walthers in HO?


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1306270594-1043697223=:93457-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:01:32 -0500 Charles and Barry, You can always apply the dry transfer to a sheet of plain decal paper, dullcote them and apply like a regular decal. :<) I often do this to apply dry transfers to things like single sheathed boxcars! (I work in N scale) Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:55 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]--PRSL > Charles, > I can't think of any O scale supplier or decals either, but I know Clover House makes dry transfer lettering for PRSL. They cover steam engines, passenger cars, and, I think,cabin cars and RDC's. I prefer decals myself, but dry transfers are a lot better than nothing. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:04:49 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Clover House Dry Transfer Lettering? Folks, I have to agree with an earlier posting regarding this company, in that if they were more widely known, theri sales would probably surge. Aside from their dry transfers, which cover many eras, they offer a lot of nice scratchbuilding supplies. Ties, siding, roofing, chains, signs, 'scale' window glass, etc are all their catalog, though some of it is produced by other companies. All quality goods, though. I like this outfit, and would recommend them without hesitation. Regards, Barry Peltier (a bit of a PRSL fan myself). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Timonium Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:24:44 -0500

Jerry,

Timonium was great.  There was a lot of variety there.  I did happen to notice a large void on the layout side as far as Pennsy was concerned.  As always, there were a ton of WM guys there.  A little disapointing considering the proximity to Pennsy (the NC being so close :-) ).  There was a nice selection of PRR rolling stock and things as well as books and artwork.  The show was the biggest and most varied that I can remember.

Sorry you missed it.

-Matt


STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:57:11 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Dear Group, I'm not all that familiar with the PRSL, but recent posts about it have inspired a few questions: 1) When did dieselization of the PRSL (freight and passenger) begin? 2) What types of diesel locomotives were used to haul passenger trains on the PRSL prior to introduction of the RDCs? 3) What year did the RDCs arrive? Once the RDCs were in service, were they used exclusively, or were there still some locomotive-hauled passenger trains on the PRSL? 4) In the post-WWII era, were all the trains "locals" from Philadelphia, or were there through trains from other PRR or RDG points? 5) Were P70s the most modern passenger cars used on the PRSL, prior to the arrival of the RDCs? Were newer streamlined coaches ever regularly assigned to the line? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walther' R50 Reefer Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:03:18 -0500 Listers, The link below will lead you to the Walther's web site page where you can access pictures of the R50 reefers. I assume if I am modeling 1954-1957 I would need the postwar scheme and not the one with the keystone replacing the "Pennsylvania" Chris Chany PS: You may have to cut and paste http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&ke ywords=reefer&instock=A&split=30&Submit=Search ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:14:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium --part1_2b.37167891.2b672562_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I went both Saturday and Sunday. (The hand stamp got you in free the second day.) The majority of the PRR stuff was brass and VERY expensive. I was hoping that, on Sunday the dealers would lower the prices so they wouldn't have to tote everything home. I was disappointed in that regard. Ended up not buying anything. Chris Baker --part1_2b.37167891.2b672562_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I went both Saturday and Sunday.  (The hand stamp got you in free the second day.)  The majority of the PRR stuff was brass and VERY expensive.  I was hoping that, on Sunday the dealers would lower the prices so they wouldn't have to tote everything home.  I was disappointed in that regard.  Ended up not buying anything.

Chris Baker --part1_2b.37167891.2b672562_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:50:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 Ron and others, >From what I can see, the wrecking crane (aka derrick) appears to be an attempt at a 250 tonner. The PRR did have these (I recall about 5 or 6), but I can't tell how accurate that specific model is. At best it appears to be a stand-in. The stack is too high, and all derricks were painted black. The idler car is a truss rod flat car with house. PRR did not have that specific car in service at the time the 250 tonners were on the property (ca 1945 onward). I'm sure they used truss rod flats for work equipment at one time, but it would have predated the 250 tonners by many years. There were very few flat cars with houses on them (mostly class FXL) and most appeared to have been used as idlers for crawler cranes. The 250-ton derrick would have most likely used a modified class FM, F21, FGR, FGRA, GR or GRA car as an idler. It would have been solid gray or solid yellow depending on time period. Although some have appeared with black frames and yellow side boards. So much for the standards. Al [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:49:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Alan, Whew, that's a lot of territory to cover in your message! But, I can take a passing shot at some of it, as i don't have a lot of my PRSL materiel handy. Anyway: 1)-The Seashore Lines started getting Baldwin road switchers (DRS 4-4-15) in 1950, with six of them going into service. These were duel service engines numbered 6000-6005, and were geared for 65 mph. They were often used on the Millville passenger jobs, and elsewhere, after the demise of electric operations on that line. 2)-Passenger trains were hauled by the DRS 4-4-15's and AS16's. I recall seeing, and have seen photos of Baldwin S12 switchers hauling connecting P70 coachs on the Tuckahoe-Ocean City line! The road units were in 30th Street-Atlantic City service until at least 1966, and I recall seeing one of these trains in late 1965 at frankfurt Jct with an AS16, a PB70 and three P70's. 3)-RDC's arrived in 1950-51 and were used largely in Camden-Ocean City-Wildwood-Cape May service, as well as some Camden-Millville trains, and Camden-Haddonfield shuttle service. Later they were used on a number of Camden communter trains, such as to Ashland and Clemonton on ex-Rdg routes, and all Millville runs. But diesel hauled trains stayed on the Atlantic City runs until very late. The two Camden-AC trains used Pennsy PA's, then E7's from the late 50's-early 60's. RDC's didn't run into Philley until around 1967 or 68. Atlantic City and Cherry Hill race track trains often used Pennsy E units or even FP7's; the Nelly Bly ran behind either PRSL Baldwins or a Pennsy GP9 (or 7, I'm not certain). 4)-Actually, Philadelphia was the terminal for Atlantic City trains for the most part, with most service out of Camden. There was a ferry service from Philley to Federal Street, Camden. This was cut back to Broadway Street, Camden in the early 1950's (1952?) when the ferry was dropped. Camden originated trains for Cape May/Ocean City,Hammondton, Millville, Atlantic City, Haddonfield and other points. Philley mostly saw through service to Cape May/etc on a summer-season basis. I'm not aware of trains originating on the PRR or RDG other than from Broad St or 30th Street stations on a regular basis. 5)-Yes, the PRSL modernized/upgraded some P70's (simialr to the FBR versions on the nicer cars) under state mandate in exchange for dropping some local services. Some cars didn't get air and I don't think any got reclining seats, but they were spiffed up quite a bit. I don't know of any actual lightweight coachs running there on a regular basis, but the race track trains and possibly the NY trains had frequent appearences of many modernized Pennsy cars. In the heavy summer season, all kinds of cars might appear. One of the 30th Street-AC trains also carried a 4-4-2 lightweight Pullman until c1960, connecting with the Pittsburgher. I hope this is some help, and can supply better detail if you'd like, but it might take a few days. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:50:46 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_uOQ0r43IdEUJn7NE7OEWsA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ron and others, >From what I can see, the wrecking crane (aka derrick) appears to be an attempt at a 250 tonner. The PRR did have these (I recall about 5 or 6), but I can't tell how accurate that specific model is. At best it appears to be a stand-in. The stack is too high, and all derricks were painted black. The idler car is a truss rod flat car with house. PRR did not have that specific car in service at the time the 250 tonners were on the property (ca 1945 onward). I'm sure they used truss rod flats for work equipment at one time, but it would have predated the 250 tonners by many years. There were very few flat cars with houses on them (mostly class FXL) and most appeared to have been used as idlers for crawler cranes. The 250-ton derrick would have most likely used a modified class FM, F21, FGR, FGRA, GR or GRA car as an idler. It would have been solid gray or solid yellow depending on time period. Although some have appeared with black frames and yellow side boards. So much for the standards. Al --Boundary_(ID_uOQ0r43IdEUJn7NE7OEWsA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Ron and others,
 
From what I can see, the wrecking crane (aka derrick) appears to be an attempt at a 250 tonner. The PRR did have these (I recall about 5 or 6), but I can't tell how accurate that specific model is. At best it appears to be a stand-in. The stack is too high, and all derricks were painted black.
 
The idler car is a truss rod flat car with house. PRR did not have that specific car in service at the time the 250 tonners were on the property (ca 1945 onward). I'm sure they used truss rod flats for work equipment at one time, but it would have predated the 250 tonners by many years. There were very few flat cars with houses on them (mostly class FXL) and most appeared to have been used as idlers for crawler cranes. The 250-ton derrick would have most likely used a modified class FM, F21, FGR, FGRA, GR or GRA car as an idler. It would have been solid gray or solid yellow depending on time period. Although some have appeared with black frames and yellow side boards. So much for the standards.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_uOQ0r43IdEUJn7NE7OEWsA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:21:24 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Is this an accurate model of a PRR prototype, either the crane (or should I say derrick) or the boom car? What about the paint scheme? It would seem to me that the crane should be all black, and that cranes were never painted either grey or yellow. If model is indeed accurate, what were the classes of the equipment and possible numbers? And speaking of MOW equipment, did the PRR ever have Jordan spreaders like the one offered by Walthers in HO? Ronald, The PRR did have 250 ton Derricks, although the Bachman model is relatively crude and certainly doesn't look like Pennsy's. Among the problems I note right away are the grossly out of scale main hook and the extra tall stack. As you note, the derrick should be black, and that boom car...that's amusing...a truss rod car with a 250 ton derrick...interesting...accurate??? (probably not) Boom cars were usually modified steel flat cars (class FM, FGR, FGRA) or gons (GR, GRA). The only "boom cars" I know of with the little house on them were the class FXL cars used as idler cars for crawler cranes. As for Jordan spreaders, the answer is a cautious yes. PRR Color Guide 3 has a photo of Jordan 497404, built May 1929 that appears to have a similar front blade. It is difficult to tell, but it appears to have a wood sheathed cab. I would caution you that the Walthers kit is relatively poorly engineered. I had a great deal of difficulty witht hte mounting of the blade mechanism, as it couldn't support its own weight. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jconsoli@paonline.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:22:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Train communications in the 40's All, I was reading a PRR Motive Power Department memorandum regarding the Policies and Installations of Trainphones recently that has some pertinent information in it (to quote): ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trainphone POLICY The first trainphone applications were authorized for Bel-Del Branch early in 1944, followed by authorizations, 6-28-44, passenger service between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, and freight service on the Middle Division, and consisted of 300 locomotives, 90 cabins, and 6 wayside units. Extension of trainphone service was authorized February 25, 1948, for locomotives, cabin cars, and wayside stations on the Sandusky Branch. As steam engines were replaced by diesel-electric locomotives, trainphone was applied by the diesel builders. The first units to be equipped by a builder were purchased in the 1947 diesel program. All road passenger and road freight diesel-electric locomotive units are equipped with trainphone. Some road-switcher type locomotives have trainphone but applications were discontinued when the new style "LC" apparatus, used on Class EFS-17m diesel locomotives, proved unsatisfactory. Until this trouble was experienced, the policy had been to equip any locomotive units operating in freight service. Trainphone facilities have not been installed on electric locomotives because of the ready accessibility of wayside telephones in the electrified territory. INSTALLATION Diesels 1036 Cabin cars 258 TOTAL 1294 Wayside Stations 174 Office of Elec'l Engr. Philadelphia, Pa. 4-12-61. PSE/s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Consoli Ken Meyer wrote: > Group, > It is my understanding that the trainphone did not work under > catenary. > Besides the use of lineside telephones and written train orders. > How did train crews and block operators communicate along the mainline > > between Philadelphia and Washington if the train was experiencing a > problem? > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS > Bel Air, Maryland > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:22:40 -0500 From: jconsoli@paonline.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Train communications in the 40's All, I was reading a PRR Motive Power Department memorandum regarding the Policies and Installations of Trainphones recently that has some pertinent information in it (to quote): ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trainphone POLICY The first trainphone applications were authorized for Bel-Del Branch early in 1944, followed by authorizations, 6-28-44, passenger service between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, and freight service on the Middle Division, and consisted of 300 locomotives, 90 cabins, and 6 wayside units. Extension of trainphone service was authorized February 25, 1948, for locomotives, cabin cars, and wayside stations on the Sandusky Branch. As steam engines were replaced by diesel-electric locomotives, trainphone was applied by the diesel builders. The first units to be equipped by a builder were purchased in the 1947 diesel program. All road passenger and road freight diesel-electric locomotive units are equipped with trainphone. Some road-switcher type locomotives have trainphone but applications were discontinued when the new style "LC" apparatus, used on Class EFS-17m diesel locomotives, proved unsatisfactory. Until this trouble was experienced, the policy had been to equip any locomotive units operating in freight service. Trainphone facilities have not been installed on electric locomotives because of the ready accessibility of wayside telephones in the electrified territory. INSTALLATION Diesels 1036 Cabin cars 258 TOTAL 1294 Wayside Stations 174 Office of Elec'l Engr. Philadelphia, Pa. 4-12-61. PSE/s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Consoli Ken Meyer wrote: > Group, > It is my understanding that the trainphone did not work under > catenary. > Besides the use of lineside telephones and written train orders. > How did train crews and block operators communicate along the mainline > > between Philadelphia and Washington if the train was experiencing a > problem? > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS > Bel Air, Maryland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Howdy" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:36:48 -0800 Subject: [PRR] You might be a model railroader if......just a little off You might be a model railroader if... 1. You walk into your favorite hobby shop, and the employees immediately say, "Hi, [your name], we'll get the boss for you." 2. You've ever plunked down half your paycheck for equipment in your favorite scale, and then wondered what it would be like to model in a different scale. 3. You've ever sold a perfectly good freight or passenger car, only because the new super detailed one you just bought makes the old one look bland. 4. You really agonize over decisions like, "Should I buy flowers for my wife or a pair of turnouts for my new staging yard?" 5. You talk about your favorite scale with the zeal and fervor of an evangelist promoting his religion. 6. You see a piece of plywood, and your first thought is to imagine what kind of layout could be built on it. 7. You haven't let your son play with "his" trains since last Christmas. 8. You honestly feel that, if your wife buys a new video tape, that entitles you to buy a freight car, and a new outfit for her means an engine for you. Fair is fair. 9. You've ever gotten into a debate over whether Kato is pronounced "kay-to" or "kah-to." 10. You name the places on your railroad after your wife and children, mostly out of guilt for spending so much time on the layout instead of with them. 11. You've ever traced the route of a wire under your layout by pulling on it. 12. Brass isn't something you polish, it's something you paint and weather. 13. You spend more on your model trains in a year than most Third-World nations spend on the real thing. 14. The latest issue of Model Railroader arrives on the same day as your federal tax refund check, and you open the magazine first. 15. The latest issue of Model Railroader arrives on the same day as your state tax refund check, and the only reason you open the check first is so you'll know how much you can afford to spend as you read the ads in the magazine. 16. You've ever bought a freight car you had no use for, just because it looked so nice, and then bought more just like it, so it wouldn't look out of place. 17. You've ever been tempted to send flame e-mail to someone whose only wrongdoing was outbidding you for that special engine on eBay. 18. Your wife buys you a bag of ground foam and a box of Hydrocal for your birthday, and you're speechless with joy. 19. You hate watching The Addams Family because of what Gomez does to those gorgeous, rare tinplate trains. 20. You've ever suggested that your wife's ceramic Christmas village needs a train running through it. 21. Someone says he's finished his model railroad, and you sadly shake your head and say he's missed the point of the entire hobby. 22. Your model trains run closer to schedule than CSX's do in real life. 23. You have a manila folder (or a subdirectory on your computer) full of home-drawn track plans that you know you'll never build, but they're too good to get rid of. 24. You look forward to the latest announcements from your favorite engine maker with more enthusiasm than a six-year-old looks forward to Christmas. 25. You think that three hours forming and mounting wire grab-irons on a caboose is time well spent. 26. You never miss a chance to try and interest your children in your hobby, even your teen-age son who's in the "cars" stage. 27. You've ever poured your heart into showing off your layout for friends, and their only questions are, "How much did all this cost?" and, "How fast can the engine go?" 28. You sincerely believe that the concept of limited-run engines and cars was dreamed up by the Devil himself. 29. You're setting up a simple Lionel train set to run around the Christmas tree, and you're mentally planning the scenery and structures you'll need "to make it look right." 30. You hate collectors, because they drive up the prices of the equipment you're trying to collect. (But you're going to run yours, and that's different.) 31. Your wife assumes you can fix toasters, radios, and vacuum cleaners because "you know all about that wiring stuff from working on your trains, right?" 32. You've ever told yourself, "Never again will I try to mount tiny coupler springs while working over a shag rug!" 33. You've ever felt smug because you found an inaccuracy in a published photo of somebody else's gorgeous layout. Not that you'd ever say anything about it, of course. 34. You've ever refused to buy a model freight car because the stenciled build date (which you had to squint to read) is a year off from the era you're modeling. 35. You've visited a hobby shop on a busy day, and wound up answering detailed questions for the customers. 36. You justify the money you spent at a train show as "just doing my part to improve the nation's economy." 37. Your wife gives you something expensive but inappropriate, like an articulated stack car when you model the 50's, and you run it to avoid hurting her feelings, but the whole time, you're squirming inside. 38. You can recite the plot line from at least five Thomas the Tank Engine episodes. 39. You grumble through the entire family vacation trip because there wasn't time to stop at Northlands. 40. You refuse to buy an inexpensive, beautifully-detailed boxcar lettered for your favorite railroad, because the real thing had fourteen ribs and the model has sixteen. 41. You feel compelled to browse in the local mall's hobby shop every time you go near it, even though you know they charge list price and have nothing you need. 42. You've ever run two or more identical cars in a train, and hoped no one else noticed that the road numbers were the same. 43. You've ever tried to justify bringing home a new freight car on the grounds that it's your wife's favorite color. 44. You talk about the merits of DCC versus cab control at parties. 45. Hardly a day goes by without you making progress on planning the layout you're going to build someday. 46. Your family has ever eaten in the den because the kitchen table was buried in decals, tools, and detail parts for your latest project. 47. You've ever gotten defensive with your railroading friends about buying a model engine or car from a manufacturer they hold in contempt. 48. You've ever calculated how long your layout is in scale miles, and padded the number by adding the lengths of the sidings and spurs. 49. It constantly annoys you that the kits for model airplanes, cars, and boats in the hobby shop aren't made to useful scales, like 1:87 or 1:160. 50. You've ever told anyone, "I can quit buying freight cars any time I want!" ------- End of forwarded message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:00:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR List of Stations and Sidings 1884 From: Jerry Britton I am not the seller, but this item just appeared on eBay... PRR List of Stations and Sidings 1884 RARE Item # 2156102677 In 1923 and 1945, this document was called the CT1000. In 1884, above, it was Form 76. Hopefully someone on the list will snag it or, better yet, share it for scanning and PDF distribution! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:20:33 -0500 Alan & Barry, I responded to Alan off-line yesterday with just some brief answers until I did some research last night. I was going to fill in the gray areas today. Since you did such a fine job, I'll just add to some of the answers. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 9:49 PM To: quahog@sprint.ca Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Alan, Whew, that's a lot of territory to cover in your message! But, I can take a passing shot at some of it, as i don't have a lot of my PRSL materiel handy. Anyway: 1)-The Seashore Lines started getting Baldwin road switchers (DRS 4-4-15) in 1950, with six of them going into service. These were duel service engines numbered 6000-6005, and were geared for 65 mph. They were often used on the Millville passenger jobs, and elsewhere, after the demise of electric operations on that line. 1a. The AS16 (BS16ms) arrived 1953-65. GP38's without dynamic brakes arrived 1968-69. 2)-Passenger trains were hauled by the DRS 4-4-15's and AS16's. I recall seeing, and have seen photos of Baldwin S12 switchers hauling connecting P70 coachs on the Tuckahoe-Ocean City line! The road units were in 30th Street-Atlantic City service until at least 1966, and I recall seeing one of these trains in late 1965 at frankfurt Jct with an AS16, a PB70 and three P70's. 3)-RDC's arrived in 1950-51 and were used largely in Camden-Ocean City-Wildwood-Cape May service, as well as some Camden-Millville trains, and Camden-Haddonfield shuttle service. Later they were used on a number of Camden communter trains, such as to Ashland and Clemonton on ex-Rdg routes, and all Millville runs. But diesel hauled trains stayed on the Atlantic City runs until very late. The two Camden-AC trains used Pennsy PA's, then E7's from the late 50's-early 60's. RDC's didn't run into Philley until around 1967 or 68. Atlantic City and Cherry Hill race track trains often used Pennsy E units or even FP7's; the Nelly Bly ran behind either PRSL Baldwins or a Pennsy GP9 (or 7, I'm not certain). 3a. RDC's were #402-413. #404 & 412 were destroyed in a fire at Camden Feb.1958 The usual Nellie Bly Pennsy engine was a GP7 with torpedo tubes on the roof. 4)-Actually, Philadelphia was the terminal for Atlantic City trains for the most part, with most service out of Camden. There was a ferry service from Philley to Federal Street, Camden. This was cut back to Broadway Street, Camden in the early 1950's (1952?) when the ferry was dropped. Camden originated trains for Cape May/Ocean City,Hammondton, Millville, Atlantic City, Haddonfield and other points. Philley mostly saw through service to Cape May/etc on a summer-season basis. I'm not aware of trains originating on the PRR or RDG other than from Broad St or 30th Street stations on a regular basis. 5)-Yes, the PRSL modernized/upgraded some P70's (simialr to the FBR versions on the nicer cars) under state mandate in exchange for dropping some local services. Some cars didn't get air and I don't think any got reclining seats, but they were spiffed up quite a bit. I don't know of any actual lightweight coachs running there on a regular basis, but the race track trains and possibly the NY trains had frequent appearences of many modernized Pennsy cars. In the heavy summer season, all kinds of cars might appear. One of the 30th Street-AC trains also carried a 4-4-2 lightweight Pullman until c1960, connecting with the Pittsburgher. 5a. 60-P70's were ordered to be upgraded to P70fbR but were they were allowed to do only 40 because they bought the Budd RDC's. Many of the fresh air cars continued to remain in service with minimal improvements. I hope this is some help, and can supply better detail if you'd like, but it might take a few days. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:41:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 Re: As for Jordan spreaders, I would caution you that the Walthers kit is relatively poorly engineered. The Walthers model also has a completely inaccurate front blade as compared with Jordan PRR 497404 on page 123 of the PRR Color Guide 3, and as I recall the placement of the main air reservoir is also incorrect. That major front plow blade was also not standard on all PRR Jordan's. As I said previously, the only truly accurate PRR Jordan I know of is the brass OMI model. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:41:22 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 Re: As for Jordan spreaders, I would caution you that the Walthers kit is relatively poorly engineered. The Walthers model also has a completely inaccurate front blade as compared with Jordan PRR 497404 on page 123 of the PRR Color Guide 3, and as I recall the placement of the main air reservoir is also incorrect. That major front plow blade was also not standard on all PRR Jordan's. As I said previously, the only truly accurate PRR Jordan I know of is the brass OMI model. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:47:43 -0500 From: Don LaPlante Subject: [PRR] CENTIPEDE ARE THERE ANY MANUFACTURES OF PRR BALDWIN CENTIPEDE DIESELS IN HO GAUGE? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:58:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE From: Jerry Britton On 1/28/03 9:47 AM, Don LaPlante (dlaplante@ll.mit.edu) wrote: > ARE THERE ANY MANUFACTURES OF PRR BALDWIN CENTIPEDE DIESELS IN HO GAUGE? > Ouch, not only did I fall off my chair laughing, I hit my head!!! Sorry, don't mean to beat you up for a legit question. Unfortunately, there are no BP60/BH50 Centipedes produced in HO or N scale in anything OTHER than brass...and the brass models are 10+ years old and very hard to find. If I recall, the HO units go on eBay for $1200-1400 and the N scale units for around $1000. Since switching to N scale 2+ years ago I haven't been watching the HO scale section of eBay, but in that time only one set of N scale units has shown up. What makes it tough for a manufacturer to do this model is that only three (correct me if I am wrong) railroads bought these beasts. PRR, by far, had the majority of the units ever produced. The only way I foresee you seeing these in HO in non-brass would be from Broadway Limited Imports. They seem "set up" for the task. Cross your fingers! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:08:43 -0500 Only 3 railroads had these PRR Seaboard and NdeM (mexican railway) Hallmark made 2 runs in brass years ago. The second run went for about $400 a loco. the first set had lousy trucks. Overland imported 2 runs I believe. The second set went for over $1000 a loco Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Don LaPlante [mailto:dlaplante@ll.mit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:48 AM To: PRR-TALK@DSOP.COM Subject: [PRR] CENTIPEDE ARE THERE ANY MANUFACTURES OF PRR BALDWIN CENTIPEDE DIESELS IN HO GAUGE? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:19:31 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:21 AM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Alan & Barry, Talk about lizdexia. Please correct 1a. to read 1953-56, NOT 65. Please correct 5a. 60-P70's were ordered to be upgraded to P70fbR but they (PRSL) were allowed to do only 40 because they bought the Budd RDC's. Many of the fresh air cars continued to remain in service with minimal improvements. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:24:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Anyone want BRASSTRAINS.NET domain name? From: Jerry Britton I'm about to let the BRASSTRAINS.NET site go dead. Anyone wish to take it over? It currently has a database where people can buy/sell brass non-commercially. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:31:09 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of CT1000 et al. 11th revision For information received, thanks to Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Tom Sellers, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell, and eBay seller cvrrcar41. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | 1904 | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not certain 1898 Form C. T. 1000 1897 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1892 | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1884 "Form number 76" <--- New info ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known 1877 Form 89 C. R. 1876 Form number not known ???? This newest entry, according to the seller on eBay, "supercedes all previous editions". ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:29:33 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Dear Jerry and Group, While it's true that the Centipedes were only purchased by PRR, SAL and NdeM (according to my sources), I know many modelers who like "oddball" units and, in particular, BIG power. I'm sure many of them would welcome having a Centipede in their fleets, if the price were reasonable (i.e., not brass). Although there are more UP modelers than there are for many other roads, there is certainly no lack of "UP only" units on the market: Big Blow gas turbines, DDA40X, and 4-8-8-4 Big Boys, among others. And, lest we forget, there are plenty of buyers for GG1 models, even among those who don't model the PRR, or don't have catenary on their layouts. My own "one of these days" project is to paint GG1s in Erie black / yellow and DL&W grey / maroon / yellow. I think they'd look mighty sharp, even though they certainly wouldn't be prototypical. Perhaps coordinating efforts with SAL modelers might result in a manufacturer undertaking a Centipede project. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 1/28/03 9:47 AM, Don LaPlante (dlaplante@ll.mit.edu) wrote: > > > ARE THERE ANY MANUFACTURES OF PRR BALDWIN CENTIPEDE DIESELS IN HO GAUGE? > > > What makes it tough for a manufacturer to do this model is that only three > (correct me if I am wrong) railroads bought these beasts. PRR, by far, had > the majority of the units ever produced. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:40:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE From: Jerry Britton On 1/28/03 1:29 PM, A Samostie (quahog@sprint.ca) wrote: > While it's true that the Centipedes were only purchased by PRR, SAL and > NdeM (according to my sources), I know many modelers who like "oddball" > units and, in particular, BIG power. I'm sure many of them would > welcome having a Centipede in their fleets, if the price were reasonable > (i.e., not brass). > The number of "freelancers" who are likely to do this is so small that it would be irrelevant for a manufacturer to consider. The good news is that PRR buyers would always be purchasing A-A sets, as they ran in pairs. > > Perhaps coordinating efforts with SAL modelers might result in a > manufacturer undertaking a Centipede project. > Agreed. But I think SAL only had three units. More good news is that there are at least two valid Pennsy paint schemes that would encourage some to purchase multiple sets. There are BP60 passenger units and the later BH50 helpers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:44:26 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C6FD.4857E2E0 Content-Type: text/plain I would personally think that since Bachman has released a E44 electric model, maybe a centipede would not be out of the question. How many roads used the E44 and number of units compared to the centipede ? Ken Nesbitt -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:30 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Dear Jerry and Group, While it's true that the Centipedes were only purchased by PRR, SAL and NdeM (according to my sources), I know many modelers who like "oddball" units and, in particular, BIG power. I'm sure many of them would welcome having a Centipede in their fleets, if the price were reasonable (i.e., not brass). Although there are more UP modelers than there are for many other roads, there is certainly no lack of "UP only" units on the market: Big Blow gas turbines, DDA40X, and 4-8-8-4 Big Boys, among others. And, lest we forget, there are plenty of buyers for GG1 models, even among those who don't model the PRR, or don't have catenary on their layouts. My own "one of these days" project is to paint GG1s in Erie black / yellow and DL&W grey / maroon / yellow. I think they'd look mighty sharp, even though they certainly wouldn't be prototypical. Perhaps coordinating efforts with SAL modelers might result in a manufacturer undertaking a Centipede project. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 1/28/03 9:47 AM, Don LaPlante (dlaplante@ll.mit.edu) wrote: > > > ARE THERE ANY MANUFACTURES OF PRR BALDWIN CENTIPEDE DIESELS IN HO > > GAUGE? > > > What makes it tough for a manufacturer to do this model is that only > three (correct me if I am wrong) railroads bought these beasts. PRR, > by far, had the majority of the units ever produced. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C6FD.4857E2E0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE

I would personally think that since Bachman has = released a E44 electric model, maybe a centipede would not be out of = the question.   How many roads used the E44 and number of = units compared to the centipede ?

Ken Nesbitt


-----Original Message-----
From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:30 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE



Dear Jerry and Group,

While it's true that the Centipedes were only = purchased by PRR, SAL and NdeM (according to my sources), I know many = modelers who like "oddball" units and, in particular, BIG = power.  I'm sure many of them would welcome having a Centipede in = their fleets, if the price were reasonable (i.e., not brass). =

Although there are more UP modelers than there are = for many other roads, there is certainly no lack of "UP only" = units on the market: Big Blow gas turbines, DDA40X, and 4-8-8-4 Big = Boys, among others.  And, lest we forget, there are plenty of = buyers for GG1 models, even among those who don't model the PRR, or = don't have catenary on their layouts.  My own "one of these = days" project is to paint GG1s in Erie black / yellow and DL&W = grey / maroon / yellow.  I think they'd look mighty sharp, even = though they certainly wouldn't be prototypical. 

Perhaps coordinating efforts with SAL modelers might = result in a manufacturer undertaking a Centipede project.

Cheers,
Alan Samostie
<quahog at sprint.ca>
ELHS #3178

Jerry Britton wrote:
>
> On 1/28/03 9:47 AM, Don LaPlante = (dlaplante@ll.mit.edu) wrote:
>
> > ARE THERE ANY MANUFACTURES OF PRR BALDWIN = CENTIPEDE DIESELS IN HO
> > GAUGE?
> >

> What makes it tough for a manufacturer to do = this model is that only
> three (correct me if I am wrong) railroads = bought these beasts. PRR,
> by far, had the majority of the units ever = produced.



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C6FD.4857E2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:00:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE From: Jerry Britton On 1/28/03 1:44 PM, KNesbitt@penncro.com (KNesbitt@penncro.com) wrote: > I would personally think that since Bachman has released a E44 electric model, > maybe a centipede would not be out of the question. How many roads used the > E44 and number of units compared to the centipede ? > Have you looked at the drive train on the Centipede? The E44 is easy from a mechanical aspect; the Centipede is quite opposite. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:23:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE > >I would personally think that since Bachman has released a E44 electric >model, maybe a centipede would not be out of the question. How many >roads used the E44 and number of units compared to the centipede ? > >Ken Nesbitt Ken, The Botchman model is an E33, so the roads that had it are VIRGINIAN, NORFOLK & WESTERN, NEW HAVEN, PENN CENTRAL, CONRAIL. Several of those schemes are colorful "impulse buy" schemes. The E44 might slide in next, as it did actually have as many road names (PRR, PC, CR, AMTRACK, NJT) and some were colorful, but the PRR, PC and most of the CR units were dull, dull, dull (in terms of color). The E44 could "stand in" for Muskingom Electric Railway E50, but they had all of 2 units... As for the centipede... On the minus side: 1) Only 2 US railroads 2) BIG loco (will it run on 18" min radius in HO?) 3) Dull, dull, dull PRR paint (face it gang, PRR lcoos sell because lots of people model the PRR, not because somebody decides that its a "pretty paint scheme"...the Santa Fe sells because its pretty On the plus side: 1) Unique loco - the "oddball" factor 2) ACL scheme is pretty 3) There are a LOT of PRR fans who would buy 2, or 4, or... 4) You could do it in fantasy schemes (note that many manufacturers are still happy to do this with cars, but far more reluctant to take the heat over fake loco schemes....for example IM will introduce a number of bogus schemes on their N-scale FGE reefer, but will likely stick to proto schemes for the new diesels.) Hey, someday we might get lucky...after all LL did the DL-109...but I should point out that a 2 unit set of BP60/BH50 locos from a company like Broadway or LL will likely run close to $500. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:43:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Looking for Neal Campbell From: Jerry Britton Sorry folks... I'm looking for Neal Campbell, formerly of Bel Air, Md. The e-mail address I have for you is bad, and I'm told you moved. Are you back on this list under a new address? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:24:33 +0000 Jerry wrote: >"The E44 is easy from a mechanical aspect; the Centipede is quite >opposite." Maybe IHC could be a starting point. Perhaps the powerful drive train for their GG-1 could be a basis for a Centipede. Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:39:16 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Box Car --0-1129438605-1043793556=:20606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" published by the Wayner Group on page there is a picture of battery car 498805, an X-29, assigned service Altoona and Pittsburgh. Sorry, I don't have a scanner or would scan it in but I hope the reference helps. Ron RDG2124@aol.com wrote:PRR List, I have the Red Caboose kit for the gray colored X29 box car dedicated to battery service. I need references to determine when this car was in us, the brake equipment type on the end, and the location of the tack boards. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Evan Leisey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1129438605-1043793556=:20606 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

In "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" published by the Wayner Group on page  there is a picture of battery car 498805, an X-29, assigned service Altoona and Pittsburgh.  Sorry, I don't have a scanner or would scan it in but I hope the reference helps.    Ron 

 RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

PRR List,

   I have the Red Caboose kit for the gray colored X29 box car dedicated to battery service.  I need references to determine when this car was in us,  the brake equipment type on the end, and the location of the tack boards.

  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1129438605-1043793556=:20606-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:56:48 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Passenger diagrams, derricks, and Jordan spreaders --0-506973657-1043794608=:3309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded to my question concerning the Bachmann crane and the Walthers Jordan spreader. I now have another unrelated question. While looking through my copy of the "Pullman Company List of cars 1950" I thought I'd throw out a few questions that I always wanted cleared up. My understanding is that the plan numbers are the numbers assigned to cars on their construction blueprints, whereas diagram numbers refer to the actual floor plan (i.e., arrangement of the interior) of the car. My first question then is, do all cars with the same diagram number have exactly the same interior arrangement regardless of plan number? Secondly, if the interior arrangement is the same, would not the window arrangement also be the same for cars with similar diagram numbers? For example, would a 12 section-1 drawing room car built to diagram 5 have the same window and interior arrangement regardless if it were built to plan 2410, 2410F, 3410, 3410B, etc., etc.? I would assume becaus --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-506973657-1043794608=:3309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded to my question concerning the Bachmann crane and the Walthers Jordan spreader.  I now have another unrelated question.  While looking through my copy of the "Pullman Company List of cars 1950" I thought I'd throw out a few questions that I always wanted cleared up.  My understanding is that the plan numbers are the numbers assigned to cars on their construction blueprints, whereas diagram numbers refer to the actual floor plan (i.e., arrangement of the interior) of the car.  My first question then is, do all cars with the same diagram number have exactly the same interior arrangement regardless of plan number?  Secondly, if the interior arrangement is the same, would not the window arrangement also be the same for cars with similar diagram numbers?  For example, would a 12 section-1 drawing room car built to diagram 5 have the same window and interior arrangement regardless if it were built to plan 2410, 2410F, 3410, 3 Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-506973657-1043794608=:3309-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:45:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRSL Passenger Equipment Charles, thanks for the note. Any additional info about the little PRSL is always welcome. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:56:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Passenger diagrams, derricks, and Jordan spreaders Thanks to all who responded to my question concerning the Bachmann crane and the Walthers Jordan spreader. I now have another unrelated question. While looking through my copy of the "Pullman Company List of cars 1950" I thought I'd throw out a few questions that I always wanted cleared up. My understanding is that the plan numbers are the numbers assigned to cars on their construction blueprints, whereas diagram numbers refer to the actual floor plan (i.e., arrangement of the interior) of the car. My first question then is, do all cars with the same diagram number have exactly the same interior arrangement regardless of plan number? Secondly, if the interior arrangement is the same, would not the window arrangement also be the same for cars with similar diagram numbers? For example, would a 12 section-1 drawing room car built to diagram 5 have the same window and interior arrangement regardless if it were built to plan 2410, 2410F, 3410, 3410B, etc., etc.? I would assume because of differences in air conditioning and other mechanical factors that different plan numbers would have different roof styles and underbody arrangements even if window and interior arrangements were the same diagram number. Is there a book available that shows floor plans corresponding to all diagram numbers? What about something similar for plan numbers? Next, were all Pullman owned cars as late as 1950 still painted Pullman green with black roofs and underbodies? How can one tell, lacking an actual photograph, if a Pullman owned car assigned to the PRR was painted green or tuscan? Is there a list somewhere? Thank you. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:38:11 -0000 I agree that the Centipede would have a relatively low market interest for most manufacturers, but Roco are doing the Swedish Dm3 rod drive unit and have just done the new LKAB electric and apparently managed to sell lots of them hence the equally obscure Dm3 ( both are restricted to the Narvik - Lulea iron ore line in the far north of Sweden. So perhaps there is a chance.... Anyone fancy trying to persuade Roco? Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:23 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE > > > >I would personally think that since Bachman has released a E44 electric > >model, maybe a centipede would not be out of the question. How many > >roads used the E44 and number of units compared to the centipede ? > > > >Ken Nesbitt > > Ken, > > The Botchman model is an E33, so the roads that had it are VIRGINIAN, > NORFOLK & WESTERN, NEW HAVEN, PENN CENTRAL, CONRAIL. Several of those > schemes are colorful "impulse buy" schemes. The E44 might slide in next, > as it did actually have as many road names (PRR, PC, CR, AMTRACK, NJT) and > some were colorful, but the PRR, PC and most of the CR units were dull, > dull, dull (in terms of color). The E44 could "stand in" for Muskingom > Electric Railway E50, but they had all of 2 units... > > As for the centipede... > On the minus side: > 1) Only 2 US railroads > 2) BIG loco (will it run on 18" min radius in HO?) > 3) Dull, dull, dull PRR paint (face it gang, PRR lcoos sell because lots of > people model the PRR, not because somebody decides that its a "pretty paint > scheme"...the Santa Fe sells because its pretty > > On the plus side: > 1) Unique loco - the "oddball" factor > 2) ACL scheme is pretty > 3) There are a LOT of PRR fans who would buy 2, or 4, or... > 4) You could do it in fantasy schemes (note that many manufacturers are > still happy to do this with cars, but far more reluctant to take the heat > over fake loco schemes....for example IM will introduce a number of bogus > schemes on their N-scale FGE reefer, but will likely stick to proto schemes > for the new diesels.) > > Hey, someday we might get lucky...after all LL did the DL-109...but I > should point out that a 2 unit set of BP60/BH50 locos from a company like > Broadway or LL will likely run close to $500. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:54:40 -0500 (EST) From: Will Semanchuk-Enser Subject: [PRR] (rshsdepot) Altoona Rail Museum (fwd) This came on the RSHS list....thought it would be of interest... Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:00:31 -0500 From: Bernie Wagenblast Reply-To: rshsdepot@lists.railfan.net To: Rail Depot List Subject: (rshsdepot) Altoona Rail Museum Officials Plan to Save Altoona Rail Museum Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Jan. 28--ALTOONA, Pa.--He wouldn't even take questions yesterday on what happens if his squad of rescuers fails to pull Altoona's landmark railroad museum from its financial mire. By regional tourism bureau chief Randy Cooley's reckoning, defeat isn't an option. But to save the museum -- expanded five years ago with $16 million in federal and state money -- rescuers in this railroad city yesterday announced an all-fronts attack that runs from reduced ticket prices to heavier marketing to recruitment of volunteers to bolster a pared-down museum work force. With that, they expect to pare a shortfall estimated at $750,000 last spring and cut it to $200,000 after six months of crisis management. "The museum is not a position to absorb years of losses," said Scott Cessna, the museum's operations director. "It has to turn around in 12 to 18 months. ... But I hope our worst-case scenario this year is a very small loss." "This job, this facility, will succeed," said Cooley, president of Westsylvania Heritage Corp., a regional agency created to promote history as a tourism hook and now the adviser for the museum rescue. A century-and-a-half ago, the Pennsylvania Railroad bred Altoona. Two decades ago, Altoona bred the museum, officially, the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. In the mid-1990s, state and federal money made it a showpiece, telling people the story of a city and a work force of up to 16,500 railroaders that ran to the rhythm of the railroad. The revamped museum won praise from experts. "It's not simply a collection of rusty old rail cars," said Cessna, a former rail station master's son who left his job as chief financial officer at a local electric equipment supply chain to run the museum. "We want to be known as the ... premier museum of its type in the country." But the shine of novelty wore off. The number of visitors last year was under 50,000 -- well below the museum's six-figure potential, Cooley said. Low turnout was a damper for revenues in places such as the museum gift shop, a source that museums traditionally look to increase their take. The museum, closed now for financial retooling, will reopen March 29 with reduced ticket prices. The top-price ticket, once $10, will be $7.50 for out-of-county adults and $4 for Blair County residents. Cheaper tickets will be available for senior citizens, children and groups -- fare that covers visits both to the museum and nearby Horseshoe Curve, the mid-1800s engineering feat that opened the Allegheny Mountains to trains. The museum work force, once 33, has been pared to four, Cessna said. The work force is expected to grow to seven employees and volunteers will be used to help balance the museum's $750,000 budget. ================================= The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Signalling question to N scalers Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:05:30 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C77D.F431D0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am contemplating a move to N scale but I am looking at a couple of = different areas that are important to me. One of my most important = issues in modelling a railroad is prototype signals. Can this be done = in N scale with proper lighting aspects and signals for PRR? What is = available? If I did PRR in N I would actually be looking at planning a = layout for the Altoona and Horseshoe curve area. Thanks for any input. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C77D.F431D0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
I am contemplating a move to N scale = but I am=20 looking at a couple of different areas that are important to me.  = One of my=20 most important issues in modelling a railroad is prototype = signals.  Can=20 this be done in N scale with proper lighting aspects and signals for = PRR? =20 What is available?  If I did PRR in N I would actually be looking = at=20 planning a layout for the Altoona and Horseshoe curve area.  Thanks = for any=20 input.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C77D.F431D0A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] You might be a model railroader IF Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:21:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0349_01C2C788.8B7DC3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might be a model railroader if... 1. You walk into your favorite hobby shop, and the employees immediately say, "Hi, [your name], we'll get the boss for you." 2. You've ever plunked down half your paycheck for equipment in your favorite scale, and then wondered what it would be like to model in a different scale. 3. You've ever sold a perfectly good freight or passenger car, only because the new super detailed one you just bought makes the old one look bland. 4. You really agonize over decisions like, "Should I buy flowers for my wife or a pair of turnouts for my new staging yard?" 5. You talk about your favorite scale with the zeal and fervor of an evangelist promoting his religion. 6. You see a piece of plywood, and your first thought is to imagine what kind of layout could be built on it. 7. You haven't let your son play with "his" trains since last Christmas. 8. You honestly feel that, if your wife buys a new video tape, that entitles you to buy a freight car, and a new outfit for her means an engine for you. Fair is fair. 9. You've ever gotten into a debate over whether Kato is pronounced "kay-to" or "kah-to." 10. You name the places on your railroad after your wife and children, mostly out of guilt for spending so much time on the layout instead of with them. 11. You've ever traced the route of a wire under your layout by pulling on it. 12. Brass isn't something you polish, it's something you paint and weather. 13. You spend more on your model trains in a year than most Third-World nations spend on the real thing. 14. The latest issue of Model Railroader arrives on the same day as your federal tax refund check, and you open the magazine first. 15. The latest issue of Model Railroader arrives on the same day as your state tax refund check, and the only reason you open the check first is so you'll know how much you can afford to spend as you read the ads in the magazine. 16. You've ever bought a freight car you had no use for, just because it looked so nice, and then bought more just like it, so it wouldn't look out of place. 17. You've ever been tempted to send flame e-mail to someone whose only wrongdoing was outbidding you for that special engine on eBay. 18. Your wife buys you a bag of ground foam and a box of Hydrocal for your birthday, and you're speechless with joy. 19. You hate watching The Addams Family because of what Gomez does to those gorgeous, rare tinplate trains. 20. You've ever suggested that your wife's ceramic Christmas village needs a train running through it. 21. Someone says he's finished his model railroad, and you sadly shake your head and say he's missed the point of the entire hobby. 22. Your model trains run closer to schedule than CSX's do in real life. 23. You have a manila folder (or a subdirectory on your computer) full of home-drawn track plans that you know you'll never build, but they're too good to get rid of. 24. You look forward to the latest announcements from your favorite engine maker with more enthusiasm than a six-year-old looks forward to Christmas. 25. You think that three hours forming and mounting wire grab-irons on a caboose is time well spent. 26. You never miss a chance to try and interest your children in your hobby, even your teen-age son who's in the "cars" stage. 27. You've ever poured your heart into showing off your layout for friends, and their only questions are, "How much did all this cost?" and, "How fast can the engine go?" 28. You sincerely believe that the concept of limited-run engines and cars was dreamed up by the Devil himself. 29. You're setting up a simple Lionel train set to run around the Christmas tree, and you're mentally planning the scenery and structures you'll need "to make it look right." 30. You hate collectors, because they drive up the prices of the equipment you're trying to collect. (But you're going to run yours, and that's different.) 31. Your wife assumes you can fix toasters, radios, and vacuum cleaners because "you know all about that wiring stuff from working on your trains, right?" 32. You've ever told yourself, "Never again will I try to mount tiny coupler springs while working over a shag rug!" 33. You've ever felt smug because you found an inaccuracy in a published photo of somebody else's gorgeous layout. Not that you'd ever say anything about it, of course. 34. You've ever refused to buy a model freight car because the stenciled build date (which you had to squint to read) is a year off from the era you're modeling. 35. You've visited a hobby shop on a busy day, and wound up answering detailed questions for the customers. 36. You justify the money you spent at a train show as "just doing my part to improve the nation's economy." 37. Your wife gives you something expensive but inappropriate, like an articulated stack car when you model the 50's, and you run it to avoid hurting her feelings, but the whole time, you're squirming inside. 38. You can recite the plot line from at least five Thomas the Tank Engine episodes. 39. You grumble through the entire family vacation trip because there wasn't time to stop at Northlands. 40. You refuse to buy an inexpensive, beautifully-detailed boxcar lettered for your favorite railroad, because the real thing had fourteen ribs and the model has sixteen. 41. You feel compelled to browse in the local mall's hobby shop every time you go near it, even though you know they charge list price and have nothing you need. 42. You've ever run two or more identical cars in a train, and hoped no one else noticed that the road numbers were the same. 43. You've ever tried to justify bringing home a new freight car on the grounds that it's your wife's favorite color. 44. You talk about the merits of DCC versus cab control at parties. 45. Hardly a day goes by without you making progress on planning the layout you're going to build someday. 46. Your family has ever eaten in the den because the kitchen table was buried in decals, tools, and detail parts for your latest project. 47. You've ever gotten defensive with your railroading friends aboutbuying a model engine or car from a manufacturer they hold in contempt. 48. You've ever calculated how long your layout is in scale miles,and padded the number by adding the lengths of the sidings and spurs. 49. It constantly annoys you that the kits for model airplanes, cars, and boats in the hobby shop aren't made to useful scales, like 1:87 or 1:160. 50. You've ever told anyone, "I can quit buying freight cars any time I want!" ------=_NextPart_000_0349_01C2C788.8B7DC3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

You might be a model railroader if...

1. You walk into your favorite hobby shop, and the=20 employees immediately say, "Hi, = [your=20 name], we'll get the boss for you."

2. You've ever plunked down half your paycheck for=20 equipment in your favorite scale, and then = wondered what it=20 would be like to model in a different scale.

3. You've ever sold a perfectly good freight or = passenger=20 car,

only because the new super detailed one you just = bought makes=20 the old one look bland.

4. You really agonize over decisions like, "Should I = buy=20 flowers for my wife or a pair of = turnouts=20 for my new staging yard?"

5. You talk about your favorite scale with the zeal = and=20 fervor of an evangelist = promoting his=20 religion.

6. You see a piece of plywood, and your first thought = is to imagine what kind of layout could be = built on=20 it.

7. You haven't let your son play with "his" trains = since=20 last Christmas.

8. You honestly feel that, if your wife buys a new = video=20 tape, that entitles you to buy a = freight=20 car, and a new outfit for her means an engine for you. Fair is = fair.

9. You've ever gotten into a debate over whether Kato = is pronounced "kay-to" or = "kah-to."

10. You name the places on your railroad after your = wife=20 and children, mostly out of = guilt for=20 spending so much time on the layout instead of with them.

11. You've ever traced the route of a wire under your = layout=20 by pulling on it.

12. Brass isn't something you polish, it's something = you paint=20 and weather.

13. You spend more on your model trains in a year than = most Third-World nations spend on the real = thing.

14. The latest issue of Model Railroader arrives on = the same day=20 as your federal tax refund = check, and you=20 open the magazine first.

15. The latest issue of Model Railroader arrives on = the same day=20 as your state tax refund check, = and the=20 only reason you open the check first is so you'll know how much you can = afford=20 to spend as you read the ads in the magazine.

16. You've ever bought a freight car you had no use = for,=20 just because it looked so nice, = and then=20 bought more just like it, so it wouldn't look out of place.

17. You've ever been tempted to send flame e-mail to = someone=20 whose only wrongdoing was = outbidding you=20 for that special engine on eBay.

18. Your wife buys you a bag of ground foam and a box = of=20 Hydrocal for your birthday, and = you're=20 speechless with joy.

19. You hate watching The Addams Family because of = what Gomez=20 does to those gorgeous, rare = tinplate=20 trains.

20. You've ever suggested that your wife's ceramic = Christmas=20 village needs a train running = through=20 it.

21. Someone says he's finished his model railroad, and = you=20 sadly shake your head and say = he's missed=20 the point of the entire hobby.

22. Your model trains run closer to schedule than = CSX's do in=20 real life.

23. You have a manila folder (or a subdirectory on = your=20 computer) full of home-drawn = track plans=20 that you know you'll never build, but they're too good to get rid = of.

24. You look forward to the latest announcements from = your=20 favorite engine maker with more = enthusiasm=20 than a six-year-old looks forward to Christmas.

25. You think that three hours forming and mounting = wire=20 grab-irons on a caboose is time = well=20 spent.

26. You never miss a chance to try and interest your = children=20 in your hobby, even your = teen-age son=20 who's in the "cars" stage.

27. You've ever poured your heart into showing off = your layout=20 for friends, and their only = questions are,=20 "How much did all this cost?" and, "How fast can the engine = go?"

28. You sincerely believe that the concept of = limited-run=20 engines and cars was dreamed up = by the=20 Devil himself.

29. You're setting up a simple Lionel train set to run = around=20 the Christmas tree, and you're = mentally=20 planning the scenery and structures you'll need "to make it look=20 right."

30. You hate collectors, because they drive up the = prices of=20 the equipment you're trying to = collect.=20 (But you're going to run yours, and that's different.)

31. Your wife assumes you can fix toasters, radios, = and=20 vacuum cleaners because "you = know all=20 about that wiring stuff from working on your trains, right?"

32. You've ever told yourself, "Never again will I try = to mount=20 tiny coupler springs while = working over a=20 shag rug!"

33. You've ever felt smug because you found an = inaccuracy in=20 a published photo of somebody = else's=20 gorgeous layout. Not that you'd ever say anything about it, of=20 course.

34. You've ever refused to buy a model freight car = because=20 the stenciled build date (which = you had to=20 squint to read) is a year off from the era you're modeling.

35. You've visited a hobby shop on a busy day, and = wound up answering detailed questions for the=20 customers.

36. You justify the money you spent at a train show as = "just=20 doing my part to improve the = nation's=20 economy."

37. Your wife gives you something expensive but = inappropriate,=20 like an articulated stack car = when you=20 model the 50's, and you run it to avoid hurting her feelings, but the = whole=20 time, you're squirming inside.

38. You can recite the plot line from at least five = Thomas the=20 Tank Engine episodes.

39. You grumble through the entire family vacation = trip=20 because there wasn't time to = stop at=20 Northlands.

40. You refuse to buy an inexpensive, = beautifully-detailed=20 boxcar lettered for your = favorite=20 railroad, because the real thing had fourteen ribs and the model has=20 sixteen.

41. You feel compelled to browse in the local mall's = hobby=20 shop every time you go near it, = even=20 though you know they charge list price and have nothing you = need.

42. You've ever run two or more identical cars in a = train, and=20 hoped no one else noticed that = the road=20 numbers were the same.

43. You've ever tried to justify bringing home a new = freight car=20 on the grounds that it's your = wife's=20 favorite color.

44. You talk about the merits of DCC versus cab = control at=20 parties.

45. Hardly a day goes by without you making progress = on planning=20 the layout you're going to build = someday.

46. Your family has ever eaten in the den because the = kitchen=20 table was buried in decals, = tools, and=20 detail parts for your latest project.

47. You've ever gotten defensive with your railroading = friends=20 aboutbuying a model engine or car from a = manufacturer they=20 hold in contempt.

48. You've ever calculated how long your layout is in = scale=20 miles,and padded the number by adding the lengths = of the=20 sidings and spurs.

49. It constantly annoys you that the kits for model=20 airplanes, cars, and boats in = the hobby=20 shop aren't made to useful scales, like 1:87 or 1:160.

50. You've ever told anyone, "I can quit buying = freight cars=20 any time I=20 want!"

------=_NextPart_000_0349_01C2C788.8B7DC3B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:22:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signalling question to N scalers From: Jerry Britton On 1/29/03 11:05 AM, Jeremy & Soni Helms (jeremy-sonihelms@cox.net) wrote: > I am contemplating a move to N scale but I am looking at a couple of different > areas that are important to me. One of my most important issues in modelling > a railroad is prototype signals. Can this be done in N scale with proper > lighting aspects and signals for PRR? What is available? If I did PRR in N I > would actually be looking at planning a layout for the Altoona and Horseshoe > curve area. Thanks for any input. > Alkem Scale Models (http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/PRRSignalBridges.html) makes beautiful four-track signal bridges and pole position light signals. As offered, they DO NOT have working lights. However, Alkem is working on a PRR position light module that will be one chip with surface mounted LED's (read that as "no per light" wiring!) that will work with their signal targets. No ETA as of yet. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signalling question to N scalers Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:25:05 -0600 Jerry, This may be just what the doctor ordered once we get working lights for them that is what I am looking for. Jeremy > Alkem Scale Models > (http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/PRRSignalBridges.html) makes > beautiful four-track signal bridges and pole position light signals. As > offered, they DO NOT have working lights. > > However, Alkem is working on a PRR position light module that will be one > chip with surface mounted LED's (read that as "no per light" wiring!) that > will work with their signal targets. No ETA as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] R50 reefer Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:52:43 -0500 Listers, Since traffic has been slow this afternoon ( and because no one has answered) I repost this question. Chris Chany The link below will lead you to the Walther's web site page where you can access pictures of the R50 reefers. I assume if I am modeling 1954-1957 I would need the postwar scheme and not the one with the keystone replacing the "Pennsylvania" PS: You may have to cut and paste http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&ke ywords=reefer&instock=A&split=30&Submit=Search ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:23:21 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Chris, FWIW I hung around SSY as a kid in the late 40s - mid 50's and never saw the Keystone scheme. Frankly I have never seen a photo of this scheme. My GUESS is not many were done in as it was probably an outgrowth of merger planning, when "PENNSYLVANIA" lettering started disappearing from locomotives and passenger equipment. This would have started ca. 60s. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:46:38 -0500 Chris, I think for any post-war era I would use the post war scheme. I know I have never seen the "Keystone" lettering scheme on any R50bs, or any photographs of R50b's. Is this a real paint scheme or something someone dreamed up. Some of the B60 baggage cars had a similar scheme with the keystones, but not the R50's. Hope this helps. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:53 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] R50 reefer Listers, Since traffic has been slow this afternoon ( and because no one has answered) I repost this question. Chris Chany The link below will lead you to the Walther's web site page where you can access pictures of the R50 reefers. I assume if I am modeling 1954-1957 I would need the postwar scheme and not the one with the keystone replacing the "Pennsylvania" PS: You may have to cut and paste http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&ke ywords=reefer&instock=A&split=30&Submit=Search ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:57:18 -0500 Chris and AL, As a follow-up to my previous reply. If this was a legitimate scheme, it was probably on paper only. In the late 60's early 70's many of the R50's were being removed from service. I doubt if PC would have shopped any of the cars at that late date and thus repainted them. I really believe this scheme to be modelers license on Walthers part. If it is, it's a shame because it is wrong, and will probably after some time become an "example of legitimate Pennsy lettering". Lets hope not! Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:23 PM To: 'Chany, Christopher'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Chris, FWIW I hung around SSY as a kid in the late 40s - mid 50's and never saw the Keystone scheme. Frankly I have never seen a photo of this scheme. My GUESS is not many were done in as it was probably an outgrowth of merger planning, when "PENNSYLVANIA" lettering started disappearing from locomotives and passenger equipment. This would have started ca. 60s. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:21:08 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Guys, Before this gets out of hand and y'all embarrass yourselves, Walthers has been very scrupulous about paint schemes. Bill Wischer keeps telling me "show me a picture" when I ask for the R50B in Futura . The scotchlite keystone scheme was rare, but it is documented in photos. Happy Rails Bruce >Chris and AL, > >As a follow-up to my previous reply. >If this was a legitimate scheme, it was probably on paper only. >In the late 60's early 70's many of the R50's were being removed >from service. I doubt if PC would have shopped any of the cars at that >late date and thus repainted them. I really believe this scheme to >be modelers license on Walthers part. If it is, it's a shame because >it is wrong, and will probably after some time become an "example of >legitimate Pennsy lettering". Lets hope not! > >Buzz > >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] >Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:23 PM >To: 'Chany, Christopher'; 'PRR-Talk' >Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer > > >Chris, > >FWIW I hung around SSY as a kid in the late 40s - mid 50's and never saw >the Keystone scheme. Frankly I have never seen a photo of this scheme. >My GUESS is not many were done in as it was probably an outgrowth of >merger planning, when "PENNSYLVANIA" lettering started disappearing from >locomotives and passenger equipment. This would have started ca. 60s. > >Al > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >**************************************************************************** >This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, >privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or >its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of >the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient >of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, >copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments >to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this >e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete >the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy >expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements >and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email >communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such >communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any >damages or other liability so arising. >**************************************************************************** > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 reefer Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:36:07 -0500 Chris, As others have stated, this was the last paint scheme used by PRR on passenger equipment, and only started to be applied sometime after 1960, once merger talks started. Locomotives and passenger equipment, when repainted, had no roadname, only vinyl decals of the PRR keystone applied. By this time, I was working for the PRR, but in New Orleans, so I didn't see many R50's. But I would expect very few, if any, got repainted after 1960. OTOH, if another railroad damaged one in a derailment, PRR may have restored it and billed the road responsible for the cost, so I suspect one or more may have actually worn this scheme. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:52 PM Subject: [PRR] R50 reefer > Listers, > > Since traffic has been slow this afternoon ( and because no one has > answered) I repost this question. > > > Chris Chany > > > The link below will lead you to the Walther's web site page where you can > access pictures of the R50 reefers. I assume if I am modeling 1954-1957 I > would need the postwar scheme and not the one with the keystone replacing > the "Pennsylvania" > > > PS: You may have to cut and paste > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&ke > ywords=reefer&instock=A&split=30&Submit=Search > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] R50 reefer--Another Question Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:45:25 -0600 List, Would any of the pre-war paint jobs survived until 1950? If yes, would this been fairly common or rare. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "marlana freitas" Subject: [PRR] PRR messages Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:56:22 -0500 The wife says hello, it's her computer. Power behind the buttons: Fred Freitas,PRRTHS 1/ to Howdy- 51. You might be a master model railroader if --- you've never used the same justification for what you have done in your hobby pursuits more that once! 2/ to Bruce & Ken re Centipede not to be disheartened-- if LL can put out Erie A&B in P/1000 for reasonable $, then a pair of BP60/BH50 should not cost more. only one mold process to work with. I agree that PRR fans will buy in pairs, maybe one of each paint scheme? Altoona fans are encouraged to hold tax return checks in escrow until offered for sale. Do not under estimate the power of request, send e-mail to either LL or Stewart, or your choice. One of them will pick up on it, the economy needs incentive. Has anyone thought to ask Bowser if the N-8 or the X-23 are in the process of working their way into production? Guess the 172 piece box car kits are affecting me as much as the Vermont weather. The only good thing is that it gives me more free time for model construction projects. Recently acquired ORER/PASSENGER March 1963.Does anyone in the system have the capacity to scan and send to list online? 40 years model railroader>3 weeks computer operator. My problem is obvious. Thank you for my welcome to the system, Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:26:39 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy finances? With the recent emails about the financial problems at Horseshoe curve and Altoona's Railroader's Memorial Museum, it occurred to me that their financial problems might disappear if K4 1361 were running locally there on a regular basis. Does anyone have ANY current idea when 1361 is realistically expected to be running again? When you go to the 1361 home page, it says that excursions will begin in 2002. Obviously that didn't happen, but I know that work continues. Again, I think that the combination of horseshoe curve, the Altoona museum, and 1361 would be quite a destination - and maybe a moneymaker. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:42:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes In a message dated 1/29/03 9:00:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, mfreitas@sover.net writes: << PRR fans will buy in pairs, maybe one of each paint scheme? >> PRR fans should buy 2 at a time - Pennsy's were drawbar connected pairs, Seaboard's were single units (were they double ended?) and what of the NdeM's - were they bought new or 2nd hand? Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:55:53 -0500 SEABOARD's were single ended and NdeM were also new ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes > In a message dated 1/29/03 9:00:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mfreitas@sover.net writes: > > << PRR fans will buy in pairs, maybe one of each paint scheme? >> > > PRR fans should buy 2 at a time - Pennsy's were drawbar connected pairs, > Seaboard's were single units > (were they double ended?) and what of the NdeM's - were they bought new or > 2nd hand? > > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:51:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy In a message dated 1/29/03 9:30:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ddembinski@centurytel.net writes: << Again, I think that the combination of horseshoe curve, the Altoona museum, and 1361 would be quite a destination - and maybe a moneymaker. Dale >> You really believe that the "Nazi Southern" would allow "Daisy pickers" sponsored by an organization fighting bakruptcy to foul its main line - especially now that it's down to three tracks? I don't Maybe the Strasburg RR would let you run it there - if you got it running - perhaps yet another argument for the redundancy of the Altoona group? Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy From: "Robert" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:04:02 -0500 (EST) Dale, Last time I was at Steamtown NHS, which was 4th of July weekend, 1361 was still in alot of pieces. My recollection is that the fire tubes (I think thats the right term) were all in, but they were working on putting in all the vast multitude of staybolts. I agree with you that if she were steaming, more people would go to Altoona. I sure would. Virginia Beach isn't THAT far from Altoona. At least for a steaming K4s it isn't. -Bob --- On Wed 01/29, Dale Dembinski < ddembinski@centurytel.net > wrote: From: Dale Dembinski [mailto: ddembinski@centurytel.net] To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:26:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy finances? With the recent emails about the financial problems at Horseshoe curveand Altoona's Railroader's Memorial Museum, it occurred to me thattheir financial problems might disappear if K4 1361 were running locallythere on a regular basis. Does anyone have ANY current idea when 1361is realistically expected to be running again?When you go to the 1361 home page, it says that excursions will begin in2002. Obviously that didn't happen, but I know that work continues.Again, I think that the combination of horseshoe curve, the Altoonamuseum, and 1361 would be quite a destination - and maybe a moneymaker.Dale-----------------------------------------------------------------------For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:13:12 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy Last I heard, the "experts" at Steamtown drilled the staybolts holes in the boiler too large to accomodate the original staybolts. To coverup their mistake, they placed steel rings to bring the staybolt boiler holes down to workable size, then sanded the metal down around them to make them look as if the rings were part of the boiler pieces. Major damage. Estimate was up around $850,000 dollars worth. Also heard legal action may be taken up with the project managers. Again, THIS IS ALL HEAR-SAY AND I WILL NOT LIST THE SOURCE. Their are definitely problems as no word has been spoken about 1361 in a while. In my opinion, scrap it and savor its parts to get 3750 running. The excess cash can be used to build a beautiful roundhouse at the RR Museum of PA. Altoona and Strasburg can then share the monies generated from joint venture excursions. Any K4 locomotive in working order, compliant with FRA regulations can be utilized as a marketing tool for the state to generate money for all parties interested. I am interested to know how much money the 1361 number plate alone will go for? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dale Dembinski Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:27 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy finances? With the recent emails about the financial problems at Horseshoe curve and Altoona's Railroader's Memorial Museum, it occurred to me that their financial problems might disappear if K4 1361 were running locally there on a regular basis. Does anyone have ANY current idea when 1361 is realistically expected to be running again? When you go to the 1361 home page, it says that excursions will begin in 2002. Obviously that didn't happen, but I know that work continues. Again, I think that the combination of horseshoe curve, the Altoona museum, and 1361 would be quite a destination - and maybe a moneymaker. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:52:00 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Bowser I1 question Hi, everyone, I recently finished mounting the newer correct Bowser I1 boiler on an old Penn Line I1 frame and drivers. Everything is fine except that the #1 and #5 set of drivers are carrying most of the engine's weight and I can slip a thin piece of paper between the #2-4 drivers and the rail, which effectively turns the engine into a long wheelbase 2-4-0. Two solutions suggest themselves: shim out the bearing surfaces of #2-4 driver axles or carefully remove some cast metal from the bearing surface of driver axles #1 and 5. However, I'd like to hear from some others of you who may have dealt with this before before I try fiddling with what it otherwise a good loco. Your thoughts? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:35:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR Now the target date is 2004 (Horseshoe Curve 150th Anniversary) for 1361. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] change to a digest version Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:29:41 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C2C7F6.AE4D9F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anybody send me the link to convert to a digest version of this = list?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C2C7F6.AE4D9F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anybody send me the link to convert = to a digest=20 version of this list??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C2C7F6.AE4D9F00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:27:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR messages From: Jerry Britton On 1/29/03 8:56 PM, "marlana freitas" wrote: > Has anyone thought to ask Bowser if the N-8 or the X-23 are in the process > of working their way into production? Guess the 172 piece box car kits are > affecting me as much as the Vermont weather. The only good thing is that it > gives me more free time for model construction projects. > N8 is in progress in HO scale; N5c in N scale. Both still a ways off. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:23:06 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] EMD Builders photos for sale Hi All, In accordance with list rules, I offer the following EMD Builders Photos for sale. Here is a set of 2) 8 x 10 Color EMD Builders photos that I am offering at $24.00 shipped. I have done some color corrections on them. I can print them up to 13 x 19 on special request. They are printed on an Epson 2200 printer. The results are stunning! They were scanned from original EMD 4 x 5 transparencies. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_6100.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_6106.jpg Here is a new one. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_F3_Set.jpg A limited number of first 8 x 10 prints sold will be photographic contact prints from the original 8 x 10 negative at $12.00 each shipping included. This can also be printed up to 13 x 19. I will offer a special of $30.00 for all 3) 8 x 10 photos shipping included. I will have 13 x 19 prints of these photos for sale at the Phila. Chapter meeting on Saturday. I have listed on Ebay a Cd-r of 47 HIGH resolution FD2 Queen Mary Flatcar Builders photos here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35975&item=2155716077 &rd=1 It is the complete story of the car from construction to completion. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:23:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] EMD Builders photos for sale Hi All, In accordance with list rules, I offer the following EMD Builders Photos for sale. Here is a set of 2) 8 x 10 Color EMD Builders photos that I am offering at $24.00 shipped. I have done some color corrections on them. I can print them up to 13 x 19 on special request. They are printed on an Epson 2200 printer. The results are stunning! They were scanned from original EMD 4 x 5 transparencies. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_6100.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_6106.jpg Here is a new one. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/EMD_F3_Set.jpg A limited number of first 8 x 10 prints sold will be photographic contact prints from the original 8 x 10 negative at $12.00 each shipping included. This can also be printed up to 13 x 19. I will offer a special of $30.00 for all 3) 8 x 10 photos shipping included. I will have 13 x 19 prints of these photos for sale at the Phila. Chapter meeting on Saturday. I have listed on Ebay a Cd-r of 47 HIGH resolution FD2 Queen Mary Flatcar Builders photos here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35975&item=2155716077 &rd=1 It is the complete story of the car from construction to completion. Thank You Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:05:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] EMD Builders photos for sale From: Jerry Britton On 1/30/03 7:23 AM, Bill Lane (billlane@comcast.net) wrote: > In accordance with list rules, I offer the following EMD Builders Photos for > sale. > Huh? You posted to several lists, which may have different rules, but the PRR-talk list rules request that "For Sale" postings be posted on the 1st and 15th of the month, with a prefix of "For Sale". Last I checked, this is the 30th. http://lists.dsop.com/prr/ I'm not arguing the value of the post, just clarifying the error in the first sentence. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser I1 question Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:57:56 -0500 George, It's been a while since I've done anything on my I1's, so this is from a rapidly failing memory. I believe drivers 2,3&4 are blind to accommodate the 18" curves Penn Line designed their locomotives to negotiate. Most, if not all the weight was carried by the first and last set of drivers. This allowed the middle three to overhang the rails on tight curves. The real railroad did the same thing, but typically with only the center driver blind. Not knowing your minimum radius, you might try the same thing. Buy flanged I1s axle sets from Bowser and replace #2 and #4. The bearing surfaces on the frame should all be the same, the blind wheels tires were undercut to provide the clearance. If not, shim the bearing beds down with brass shim stock, don't cut #1 & 5 as this will lower the entire locomotive. Bye the way, the locomotive is a good puller even with only 2 sets of drivers. Good luck! Let me know how you make out. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: gpierson@trnty.edu [mailto:gpierson@trnty.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:52 PM To: PRR list; PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Bowser I1 question Hi, everyone, I recently finished mounting the newer correct Bowser I1 boiler on an old Penn Line I1 frame and drivers. Everything is fine except that the #1 and #5 set of drivers are carrying most of the engine's weight and I can slip a thin piece of paper between the #2-4 drivers and the rail, which effectively turns the engine into a long wheelbase 2-4-0. Two solutions suggest themselves: shim out the bearing surfaces of #2-4 driver axles or carefully remove some cast metal from the bearing surface of driver axles #1 and 5. However, I'd like to hear from some others of you who may have dealt with this before before I try fiddling with what it otherwise a good loco. Your thoughts? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:06:15 +0000 NdeM's were purchased new. Trains did an article on them many years ago - maybe 30. The NdeM nicknamed them, "the thousand feets" according to the Baldwin guy sent down there to break them in. Norm Bell > In a message dated 1/29/03 9:00:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mfreitas@sover.net writes: > > << PRR fans will buy in pairs, maybe one of each paint scheme? >> > > PRR fans should buy 2 at a time - Pennsy's were drawbar connected pairs, > Seaboard's were single units > (were they double ended?) and what of the NdeM's - were they bought new or > 2nd hand? > > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:14:56 -0500 Bruce, Can you obtain copies, and post the photo's, or direct me to the source? I would really like to see them. Thanks. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 5:21 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 reefer Guys, Before this gets out of hand and y'all embarrass yourselves, Walthers has been very scrupulous about paint schemes. Bill Wischer keeps telling me "show me a picture" when I ask for the R50B in Futura . The scotchlite keystone scheme was rare, but it is documented in photos. Happy Rails Bruce > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >*************************************************************************** * >This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, >privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or >its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of >the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient >of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, >copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments >to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this >e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete >the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy >expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements >and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email >communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such >communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any >damages or other liability so arising. >*************************************************************************** * > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:40:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Altoona From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, Am relatively new to the list, so please forgive a neophyte's plea. Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and it's artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the potential for making Altoona the center for PRR history. I say this fully realizing that the Juniata-built locos will always stand, however illogically, at Strasburg. Politics dealt Altoona a serious blow when the "official" state RR museum was situated in Strasburg. And Altoona must continually recover from this unfortunate choice. And, thus, I quite agree with Dale that the combination of the Curve, the Museum and a steaming #1361 would attract a sufficient visitor base upon which to solidify and perhaps grow the preservation effort at Altoona. Admitting to being born and raised in Altoona with 5 generations of PRR cinders in my blood, and also spending many a Friday night on top of the Curve, having jumped the fence and climbing into the cab of #1361, drinking a few beers and imagining the living pulse of steam . . . Best to all, Steve -- Stephen H. Prosser, Ph.D., J.D. Holliston. MA sprosser@attbi.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Centipedes Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:52:29 -0500 The trains mag article(you speak of)devoted to centipedes was published in 1983. The Pennsy article was authored by myself, after D.P. Morgan asked me via an annual postcard to write the article for over 18 years! I had written the first version in one of the very first issues of X2200 South, in 1962, and impressed him. He literally BEGGED me to rewrite the article. I wanted to wait until most of the people on the PRR involved with the Centipedes were dead before I wrote the article, lest I might offend someone. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk; VVA249@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes NdeM's were purchased new. Trains did an article on them many years ago - maybe 30. The NdeM nicknamed them, "the thousand feets" according to the Baldwin guy sent down there to break them in. Norm Bell > In a message dated 1/29/03 9:00:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mfreitas@sover.net writes: > > << PRR fans will buy in pairs, maybe one of each paint scheme? >> > > PRR fans should buy 2 at a time - Pennsy's were drawbar connected > pairs, > Seaboard's were single units > (were they double ended?) and what of the NdeM's - were they bought new or > 2nd hand? > > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:33:03 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] More on Bowser I1 Hi, everyone, Thanks for your helpful suggestions. The majority view is to buy flanged drivers from Bowser for #2 and 4. Can anyone tell me what the minimum radius becomes for an engine modified this way? I have a 4-track main line and I think there is one place with a minimum of 22" on the inside track. Your thoughts? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:00:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona From: Jerry Britton On 1/30/03 9:40 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote: > Am relatively new to the list, so please forgive a neophyte's plea. Welcome, no plea required! > > Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and it's > artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the potential > for making Altoona the center for PRR history. I agree on the former, but not on the latter. It would be great if we could "go back" and make Altoona the center for PRR history, but Strasburg is already well established. True, it's the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, but its rolling stock collection is first rate. They'll never give it up, at any price, nor should they. Too bad it didn't go to Altoona. But there were valid reasons. Given today's status of Altoona, probably a good thing they didn't go there! > > I say this fully realizing that the Juniata-built locos will always stand, > however illogically, at Strasburg. Politics dealt Altoona a serious blow > when the "official" state RR museum was situated in Strasburg. And Altoona > must continually recover from this unfortunate choice. I could be wrong, but I don't think Altoona was established then, didn't have all the property it has now, etc. Probably wasn't even an option. The powers that be in Altoona at the time probably didn't want to fork over the properties to the state for their control of the museum, either. > > And, thus, I quite agree with Dale that the combination of the Curve, the > Museum and a steaming #1361 would attract a sufficient visitor base upon > which to solidify and perhaps grow the preservation effort at Altoona. NS will never/seldom allow #1361 to run on the main line. That would be the perfect scenario, but it won't happen. However, at Strasburg you could run #1361. > > Admitting to being born and raised in Altoona with 5 generations of PRR > cinders in my blood, and also spending many a Friday night on top of the > Curve, having jumped the fence and climbing into the cab of #1361, drinking > a few beers and imagining the living pulse of steam . . . > I appreciate your viewpoint... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:28:00 -0600 Does our group have sufficient resources to present a package to Bachman that they can use to design a loco? --- I must assume the answer is yes. The "package" is a key part of moving any project along according to an employee of Life-Like. Will we see a centipede if we do this. I can't say. I will say that we have an erie-built, a C-liner and a DL-109. Who would have thought this would have happened. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:46:02 +0000 IMHO Altoona will never make it. It is just to far off the turnpike or I-80 to get tourists to deviate. Now IF and note the IF excursions up and down the curve reagrdless of motive power in open cars could be arranged it might stand a chance but I still don't think that would draw enough people. Let's face it Joe sixpack taking his family on a vacation doesn't know and probably isn't intersted in the history or the experience and the population base in the Altoona area isn't large enough to support it. Some guy on AOL several years ago couldn't understand why most of thought it was a dumb idea to try to buy AlCO's buildings and turn it into an ALCO shrine. Who is going to go to Schenectedy to look at a bunch of buildings except a diehard ALCo afficienado. We have the same problem. It's kind of a chicken or egg thing to me. Are we better off saving equipment or the buildings that produced them. Given a choice which would you want to see? I'll bet it's the rolling stock every time. Norm Bell > On 1/30/03 9:40 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote: > > > Am relatively new to the list, so please forgive a neophyte's plea. > > Welcome, no plea required! > > > > Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and it's > > artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the potential > > for making Altoona the center for PRR history. > > I agree on the former, but not on the latter. It would be great if we could > "go back" and make Altoona the center for PRR history, but Strasburg is > already well established. True, it's the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, > but its rolling stock collection is first rate. They'll never give it up, at > any price, nor should they. Too bad it didn't go to Altoona. But there were > valid reasons. Given today's status of Altoona, probably a good thing they > didn't go there! > > > > I say this fully realizing that the Juniata-built locos will always stand, > > however illogically, at Strasburg. Politics dealt Altoona a serious blow > > when the "official" state RR museum was situated in Strasburg. And Altoona > > must continually recover from this unfortunate choice. > > I could be wrong, but I don't think Altoona was established then, didn't > have all the property it has now, etc. Probably wasn't even an option. The > powers that be in Altoona at the time probably didn't want to fork over the > properties to the state for their control of the museum, either. > > > > And, thus, I quite agree with Dale that the combination of the Curve, the > > Museum and a steaming #1361 would attract a sufficient visitor base upon > > which to solidify and perhaps grow the preservation effort at Altoona. > > NS will never/seldom allow #1361 to run on the main line. That would be the > perfect scenario, but it won't happen. However, at Strasburg you could run > #1361. > > > > Admitting to being born and raised in Altoona with 5 generations of PRR > > cinders in my blood, and also spending many a Friday night on top of the > > Curve, having jumped the fence and climbing into the cab of #1361, drinking > > a few beers and imagining the living pulse of steam . . . > > > I appreciate your viewpoint... > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:52:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona From: Jerry Britton On 1/30/03 10:46 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > IMHO Altoona will never make it. It is just to far off the turnpike or I-80 > to > get tourists to deviate. Now IF and note the IF excursions up and down the > curve reagrdless of motive power in open cars could be arranged it might stand > a chance but I still don't think that would draw enough people. "Open" cars? Yeah, right. I'm sure NS would allow an excursion with open cars to proceed on a track parallel to one carrying 100+ cars in the opposite direction only 18" (or less) away with a speed differential of, at times, 60 mph. Lloyd's of London wouldn't even insure that operation! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:07:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Open Cars 
Well, there are open cars and there are open cars...  Certainly, modified 

flat or gondola cars, ala' Cass Scenic Railroad wouldn't be very desirable, 

but on the other hand, open window cars, such as were on many excursions back 

in the 70's, 80.s and early 90's, might be accepted a bit better.  Than 

doesn't overcome the current NS phobia of anything steam.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:19:45 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Open Cars

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/30/03 11:07 AM, GFPat420@aol.com (GFPat420@aol.com) wrote:



> 
Well, there are open cars and there are open cars...  Certainly, modified

> flat or gondola cars, ala' Cass Scenic Railroad wouldn't be very desirable,

> but on the other hand, open window cars, such as were on many excursions back

> in the 70's, 80.s and early 90's, might be accepted a bit better.  Than

> doesn't overcome the current NS phobia of anything steam.

> 

Even open window cars wouldn't fly.



If you watch Digital Image Works video "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers"

there are numerous scences shot from the window of the helper cab. When an

oncoming train passes, it IS close!!!



There is absolutely NO DOUBT that if someone put their arm out the window it

would be hit by the oncoming train...without even stretching!



Brad Bower (DIW) once told me they had camera mounts...it was not

hand-held...just in case.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:23:49 -0600



With respect to the PRR collection, I believe both between Altoona and

Strasburg vied for the collection some thirty some-odd years ago.  Primarily

for politica reasons, Altoona lost out.  Had they not, things might be

different today.



-----Original Message-----

From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net]

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:46 AM

To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Jerry Britton

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona





IMHO Altoona will never make it.  It is just to far off the turnpike or I-80

to 

get tourists to deviate.  Now IF and note the IF excursions up and down the 

curve reagrdless of motive power in open cars could be arranged it might

stand 

a chance but I still don't think that would draw enough people.  Let's face

it 

Joe sixpack taking his family on a vacation doesn't know and probably isn't 

intersted in the history or the experience and the population base in the 

Altoona area isn't large enough to support it.  Some guy on AOL several

years 

ago couldn't understand why most of thought it was a dumb idea to try to buy



AlCO's buildings and turn it into an ALCO shrine.  Who is going to go to 

Schenectedy to look at a bunch of buildings except a diehard ALCo

afficienado.  

We have the same problem.  It's kind of a chicken or egg thing to me.  Are

we 

better off saving equipment or the buildings that produced them. Given a

choice 

which would you want to see?  I'll bet it's the rolling stock every time.

Norm 

Bell

> On 1/30/03 9:40 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote:

> 

> > Am relatively new to the list, so please forgive a neophyte's plea.

> 

> Welcome, no plea required!

> > 

> > Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and

it's

> > artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the

potential

> > for making Altoona the center for PRR history.

> 

> I agree on the former, but not on the latter. It would be great if we

could

> "go back" and make Altoona the center for PRR history, but Strasburg is

> already well established. True, it's the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania,

> but its rolling stock collection is first rate. They'll never give it up,

at

> any price, nor should they. Too bad it didn't go to Altoona. But there

were

> valid reasons. Given today's status of Altoona, probably a good thing they

> didn't go there!

> > 

> > I say this fully realizing that the Juniata-built locos will always

stand,

> > however illogically, at Strasburg.  Politics dealt Altoona a serious

blow

> > when the "official" state RR museum was situated in Strasburg.  And

Altoona

> > must continually recover from this unfortunate choice.

> 

> I could be wrong, but I don't think Altoona was established then, didn't

> have all the property it has now, etc. Probably wasn't even an option. The

> powers that be in Altoona at the time probably didn't want to fork over

the

> properties to the state for their control of the museum, either.

> > 

> > And, thus, I quite agree with Dale that the combination of the Curve,

the

> > Museum and a steaming #1361 would attract a sufficient visitor base upon

> > which to solidify and perhaps grow the preservation effort at Altoona.

> 

> NS will never/seldom allow #1361 to run on the main line. That would be

the

> perfect scenario, but it won't happen. However, at Strasburg you could run

> #1361.

> > 

> > Admitting to being born and raised in Altoona with 5 generations of PRR

> > cinders in my blood, and also spending many a Friday night on top of the

> > Curve, having jumped the fence and climbing into the cab of #1361,

drinking

> > a few beers and imagining the living pulse of steam . . .

> > 

> I appreciate your viewpoint...

> -----------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> 

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:12:18 -0600

Subject: [PRR] virus???

From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 



I just received an e-mail from:  





PRR_Fan 



Please keep virus reports off-list.



Don, please correct me if I am wrong, but the e-mail in question did not

come from the list. The listserv is disabling attachments (or should be).



If you encounter something that you think is a virus, please check with the

Symantec Antivirus Research Center (SARC)...



    http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/



If you determine that you have a virus and it came via a DSOP.COM list,

please contact listmaster@dsop.com directly. Do not post to the list!

Thanks.



P.S. If you desire to discuss viruses via list, join a virus list!!!



On 1/30/03 12:12 PM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:



> I just received an e-mail from:

> 

> 

> PRR_Fan  

> with a message:

> 

> This is a  new website

> I hope you would enjoy it.

> 

> And there are two files included, both called

> 

> SUPPORT.exe

> 

> This looks suspiciously like the way viruses have been transmitted.  Anyone

> have any bad results with it?  I can't open it anyway because I use a Mac.

> 



-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "PGrace" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:52:23 -0000



Lew,



If Bachmann / Life Like are not interested we could try someone like

Roco....



regards



Patrick



----- Original Message -----

From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" 

To: "Bruce F. Smith" 

Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" 

Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 2:13 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE





> Bruce:

>

> Aside from the marketing opportunities, which I believe are adequate, what

> about erection drawings, painting and lettering schematics etc.?  Does our

> group have sufficient resources to present a package to Bachman that they

> can use to design a loco?

>

> I don't think designing a diesel loco chassis, like the centipede's, to

run

> on 18" R or even 15" R, would present too many mechanical problems.  After

> all, there are existing Bachman 8 and 10 couple steam locos that can run

on

> 15" R.  (I'm not saying that they look good doing it, they just can)

>

> The question then is: "should we, as an organization, pursue this agenda?"

> I believe a project like this has more merit for our group than most of

the

> projects that have been proposed.

>

> Lew

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Bruce F. Smith" 

> To: 

> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 2:23 PM

> Subject: RE: [PRR] CENTIPEDE

>

>

> > >

> > >I would personally think that since Bachman has released a E44 electric

> > >model, maybe a centipede would not be out of the question.   How many

> > >roads used the E44 and number of units compared to the centipede ?

> > >

> > >Ken Nesbitt

> >

> > Ken,

> >

> > The Botchman model is an E33, so the roads that had it are VIRGINIAN,

> > NORFOLK & WESTERN, NEW HAVEN, PENN CENTRAL, CONRAIL.  Several of those

> > schemes are colorful "impulse buy" schemes.  The E44 might slide in

next,

> > as it did actually have as many road names (PRR, PC, CR, AMTRACK, NJT)

and

> > some were colorful, but the PRR, PC and most of the CR units were dull,

> > dull, dull (in terms of color).  The E44 could "stand in" for Muskingom

> > Electric Railway E50, but they had all of 2 units...

> >

> > As for the centipede...

> > On the minus side:

> > 1) Only 2 US railroads

> > 2) BIG loco (will it run on 18" min radius in HO?)

> > 3) Dull, dull, dull PRR paint (face it gang, PRR lcoos sell because lots

> of

> > people model the PRR, not because somebody decides that its a "pretty

> paint

> > scheme"...the Santa Fe sells because its pretty

> >

> > On the plus side:

> > 1) Unique loco - the "oddball" factor

> > 2) ACL scheme is pretty

> > 3) There are a LOT of PRR fans who would buy 2, or 4, or...

> > 4)  You could do it in fantasy schemes (note that many manufacturers are

> > still happy to do this with cars, but far more reluctant to take the

heat

> > over fake loco schemes....for example IM will introduce a number of

bogus

> > schemes on their N-scale FGE reefer, but will likely stick to proto

> schemes

> > for the new diesels.)

> >

> > Hey, someday we might get lucky...after all LL did the DL-109...but I

> > should point out that a 2 unit set of BP60/BH50 locos from a company

like

> > Broadway or LL will likely run close to $500.

> >

> > Happy Rails

> > Bruce

> >

> > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

> > Scott-Ritchey Research Center

> > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

> > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

> >

> > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin

> Franklin

> >                            __

> >                           /  \

> >   __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

> >  |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __

|

> >  | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ |

||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

> >

|/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|

> >  | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0

> >

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

> >

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

>





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:04:46 -0500



Au contraire.  The debate was NOT between Altoona and Strasburg.  Rather

it was between St. Louis Museum of Transport and Strasburg.  St. Louis

got the P-5, WABCO got the I-1 and the rest went to Strasburg.  I don't

recall anyone in Altoona even suggesting the idea of getting into the

museum business.   You must remember that when Strasburg started as a

tourist railroad in 1959, they were pretty much alone in the business.

I personally was offered the chance to buy $500 worth of Strasburg RR

stock.  I said, "Are you kidding?  $500 is a lot of money to pour down a

rathole!"  (and $500 WAS a lot of money in those days.  I was making

$466 per month, just to  put it into perspective)



WDV



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell,

Marvin L

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:24 AM

To: 'ndbprr@att.net'; Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Jerry Britton

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona





With respect to the PRR collection, I believe both between Altoona and

Strasburg vied for the collection some thirty some-odd years ago.

Primarily for politica reasons, Altoona lost out.  Had they not, things

might be different today.



-----Original Message-----

From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net]

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:46 AM

To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Jerry Britton

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona





IMHO Altoona will never make it.  It is just to far off the turnpike or

I-80 to 

get tourists to deviate.  Now IF and note the IF excursions up and down

the 

curve reagrdless of motive power in open cars could be arranged it might

stand 

a chance but I still don't think that would draw enough people.  Let's

face it 

Joe sixpack taking his family on a vacation doesn't know and probably

isn't 

intersted in the history or the experience and the population base in

the 

Altoona area isn't large enough to support it.  Some guy on AOL several

years 

ago couldn't understand why most of thought it was a dumb idea to try to

buy



AlCO's buildings and turn it into an ALCO shrine.  Who is going to go to



Schenectedy to look at a bunch of buildings except a diehard ALCo

afficienado.  

We have the same problem.  It's kind of a chicken or egg thing to me.

Are we 

better off saving equipment or the buildings that produced them. Given a

choice 

which would you want to see?  I'll bet it's the rolling stock every

time. Norm 

Bell

> On 1/30/03 9:40 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote:

> 

> > Am relatively new to the list, so please forgive a neophyte's plea.

> 

> Welcome, no plea required!

> > 

> > Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and

it's

> > artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the

potential

> > for making Altoona the center for PRR history.

> 

> I agree on the former, but not on the latter. It would be great if we

could

> "go back" and make Altoona the center for PRR history, but Strasburg 

> is already well established. True, it's the Railroad Museum of 

> Pennsylvania, but its rolling stock collection is first rate. They'll 

> never give it up,

at

> any price, nor should they. Too bad it didn't go to Altoona. But there

were

> valid reasons. Given today's status of Altoona, probably a good thing 

> they didn't go there!

> > 

> > I say this fully realizing that the Juniata-built locos will always

stand,

> > however illogically, at Strasburg.  Politics dealt Altoona a serious

blow

> > when the "official" state RR museum was situated in Strasburg.  And

Altoona

> > must continually recover from this unfortunate choice.

> 

> I could be wrong, but I don't think Altoona was established then, 

> didn't have all the property it has now, etc. Probably wasn't even an 

> option. The powers that be in Altoona at the time probably didn't want



> to fork over

the

> properties to the state for their control of the museum, either.

> > 

> > And, thus, I quite agree with Dale that the combination of the 

> > Curve,

the

> > Museum and a steaming #1361 would attract a sufficient visitor base 

> > upon which to solidify and perhaps grow the preservation effort at 

> > Altoona.

> 

> NS will never/seldom allow #1361 to run on the main line. That would 

> be

the

> perfect scenario, but it won't happen. However, at Strasburg you could



> run #1361.

> > 

> > Admitting to being born and raised in Altoona with 5 generations of 

> > PRR cinders in my blood, and also spending many a Friday night on 

> > top of the Curve, having jumped the fence and climbing into the cab 

> > of #1361,

drinking

> > a few beers and imagining the living pulse of steam . . .

> > 

> I appreciate your viewpoint...

> -----------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone 

> Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> 

> 

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> -

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:07:38 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/30/03 12:52 PM, PGrace (pgrace@aspects.net) wrote:



> If Bachmann / Life Like are not interested we could try someone like

> Roco....

> 

I wouldn't waste time with Bachmann or Roco. If you're going to take the

time to do this model, which would likely only ever be produced once, do it

right.



I think it would have to be one of



    Athearn Genesis

    Life Like Proto 2000

    Broadway Limited Imports



I don't think Atlas or Kato would touch it, and am very doubtful about

Athearn and Life Like. Given the limited appeal, I'd bet the only practical

route would be BLI...at about $500 per loco. Done right, it would be worth

it. 



Remember, these were HUGE locos. In model railroad terms, each loco would

really have two engines. So an A-A set would be like four locomotives. The

real A-A units were 6000 hp, the same as an ABBA set of E7's.



So you'd have a dual engine locomotive, with sound and DCC, for $500 retail.

A pair of "normal" locos with widespread appeal would retail for around

$300. 

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 03:52:22 -0500

From: "Michael A. Hmel" 

Subject: Fw: [PRR] CENTIPEDE





In an earlier post :

----- Original Message -----

From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" 

To: "Bruce F. Smith" 

Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" 

Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:13 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE





> Aside from the marketing opportunities, which I believe are adequate, what

> about erection drawings, painting and lettering schematics etc.?  Does our

> group have sufficient resources to present a package to Bachman that they

> can use to design a loco?



Hello List  ,

I have to believe that there is sufficient  info / drawings  available , MTH

seems to have made their "Centipede " a terrific model . They went ahead

with the model to the "O" scale market , a harder sales group in my opinion

.  This could be a selling point to help convince a  manufacturer to produce

it in "H O". I will attempt to contact them to see the amout produced / sold

to date . This actual number may help or hinder our cause , to see it

produced .



> The question then is: "should we, as an organization, pursue this agenda?"

> I believe a project like this has more merit for our group than most of

the

> projects that have been proposed.

>

> Lew



I think it is important to be pro-active about items that have " merit for

our group ". I feel that we as an organization should indeed pursue this

agenda .

Thanks ,

Mike Hmel

PRR Talk , PRRT&HS





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:00:53 -0500

From: "James L. McDaniel" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes



a Centipede should be a "hundred feets" even in Mexico.



Jim McDaniel, 2 feet in Delmarva



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:26:40 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona



--- Bill Volkmer  wrote:

> Au contraire.  The debate was NOT between Altoona and Strasburg. 

> Rather

> it was between St. Louis Museum of Transport and Strasburg.  St.

> Louis

> got the P-5, WABCO got the I-1 and the rest went to Strasburg.



Pardon me, I think two debates of decades ago have gotten tangled

together.



1. PRR had a bunch of locomotives stashed in a roundhouse at

Northumberland. PRR wanted to get rid of them. Where should they go?

That one, I think, is the debate noted above.



2. Pennsylvania, the commonwealth, set out to establish a railroad

museum. Where should it go? In that debate, Altoona was a participant

and lost.



I don't remember the order in which those happened, but I seem to

recall that Strasburg, the railroad, had established itself as

something of a draw by the time the state went shopping for a museum

site. Similarly, Altoona had a museum, or was planning a museum, or

had broken ground for a museum, or something.



> I don't recall anyone in Altoona even suggesting the idea of 

> getting into the museum business.



Perhaps not when the Northumberland collection was being dispersed,

but someone must have gotten the idea as evidenced by the existance

of the current existance of the museum in Altoona.



> You must remember that when Strasburg started as a

> tourist railroad in 1959, they were pretty much alone in the

> business.



But, at least in the beginning, Strasburg the Railroad and Strasburg

the Museum were two separate and distinct organizations.



Hoping I haven't muddied the waters too much,



=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

http://mailplus.yahoo.com



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:30:35 -0500

From: John W Rosenbauer 

Subject: [PRR] Builders plate



A friend is looking for information on this builders plate.



http://www.wpa.net/~jlrosen/plate1.jpg



This is the info he was given:



JR.......with any luck this is 2 pictures...... a guy named xx gave this 

plate to my guy here, as a going away present. He was told this was a 

plate that was to go on the 3633 but shorty after the engine  ( which he 

was told was an experiment ) was finished it was dismantled.  the 

builders plate was never even put on.  He also told a story about some 

kind of a book that turned up missing from the shop........    I hope 

this helps ......  if only one picture comes through .....the second one 

is just a close up.......... thanks Norm



Can anyone help?



Thanks,



John W Rosenbauer



---

[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.66i2]





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "PennsyNut" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser I1 question

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:19:09 -0600



Hi!



A little clarification of the prototype, which I just researched.  Pennsy

Power 1 on page 66 says:  "To get them over some of the more crooked

branches, as well as around Horseshoe or Muleshoe Curves, only the two end

pairs of driving wheels were flanged...".  Somewhere else I read that in

1938, some Decapods got flanged drivers on Nos. 2 & 4 axles, leaving only

the center/#3 drivers blind.  There's lot's of photo evidence available.



So, on your Bowser/Penn Line Decapod, you can use either configuration.  I

would assume that with the 1, 2, 4 & 5 drivers flanged, some experimentation

will be necessary to determine minimum radius.  Has anyone done this?  What

is that minimum radius with those additional flanged drivers?



Morgan Bilbo

Ferroequinologist

PRRTHS #1204 and SPF



----- Original Message -----

From: "Burnley, Charles" 

To: 

Sent: Thursday, 30 January, 2003 07:57 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser I1 question





> George,

>

> It's been a while since I've done anything on my I1's, so this is from a

> rapidly

> failing memory.

> I believe drivers 2,3&4 are blind to accommodate the 18" curves Penn Line

> designed

> their locomotives to negotiate. Most, if not all the weight was carried by

> the

> first and last set of drivers. This allowed the middle three to overhang

the

> rails

> on tight curves. The real railroad did the same thing, but typically with

> only the

> center driver blind.

> Not knowing your minimum radius, you might try the same thing. Buy flanged

> I1s axle sets

> from Bowser and replace #2 and #4. The bearing surfaces on the frame

should

> all be the

> same, the blind wheels tires were undercut to provide the clearance. If

not,

> shim the

> bearing beds down with brass shim stock, don't cut #1 & 5 as this will

lower

> the entire

> locomotive.

> Bye the way, the locomotive is a good puller even with only 2 sets of

> drivers.

> Good luck! Let me know how you make out.

>

> Buzz

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: gpierson@trnty.edu [mailto:gpierson@trnty.edu]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:52 PM

> To: PRR list; PRR-talk

> Subject: [PRR] Bowser I1 question

>

>

> Hi, everyone,

>

> I recently finished mounting the newer correct Bowser I1 boiler on an old

> Penn

> Line I1 frame and drivers.  Everything is fine except that the #1 and #5

set

>

> of drivers are carrying most of the engine's weight and I can slip a thin

> piece of paper between the #2-4 drivers and the rail, which effectively

> turns

> the engine into a long wheelbase 2-4-0.  Two solutions suggest themselves:

> shim out the bearing surfaces of #2-4 driver axles or carefully remove

some

> cast metal from the bearing surface of driver axles #1 and 5.  However,

I'd

> like to hear from some others of you who may have dealt with this before

> before I try fiddling with what it otherwise a good loco.  Your thoughts?

>

> George Pierson

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

>

****************************************************************************

> This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is

proprietary,

> privileged, confidential  or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or

> its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of

> the person to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended

recipient

> of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,

distribution,

> copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and

attachments

> to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received

this

> e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently

delete

> the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Conectiv

policy

> expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive

statements

> and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email

> communications.  Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such

> communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any

> damages or other liability so arising.

>

****************************************************************************

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

>



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:30:30 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/30/03 1:26 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote:



> --- Bill Volkmer  wrote:

>> Au contraire.  The debate was NOT between Altoona and Strasburg.

>> Rather

>> it was between St. Louis Museum of Transport and Strasburg.  St.

>> Louis

>> got the P-5, WABCO got the I-1 and the rest went to Strasburg.

> 

> Pardon me, I think two debates of decades ago have gotten tangled

> together.

> 

> 1. PRR had a bunch of locomotives stashed in a roundhouse at

> Northumberland. PRR wanted to get rid of them. Where should they go?

> That one, I think, is the debate noted above.



One of the videos shows the above being moved to Strasburg.

> 

>> You must remember that when Strasburg started as a

>> tourist railroad in 1959, they were pretty much alone in the

>> business.

> 

> But, at least in the beginning, Strasburg the Railroad and Strasburg

> the Museum were two separate and distinct organizations.

> 

They still are separate, but cooperative.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:51:04 -0500



In my  humble opinion, the opposite was the case.  In the beginning the

Strasburg R.R. and the proposed museum were pretty much one and the same

entity.  Over the years the two have grown apart to the point where the

highway that separates them seems more like the Grand Canyon.  



I remember during my  tenure at Northumberland, the CMO of the Strasburg

coming up to Northumberland on more than one occasion and helping

himself to things like flue rattlers, washout plugs and gaskets etc. to

keep the 1225 (D-16)in operation.  He almost took the G-5 to put into

service when they got a good deal on the US Sugar 2-10-0 #90 that was

already in good operating condition.  (The H-6 was in  far better

mechanical condition than the G-5, but the G-5 was thought to have more

passenger train appeal.)  The talk at that time was  of taking the whole

collection and starting a museum on Strasburg RR property.  Naturally

they were looking to the State of Penna for a handout to help finance

it.  I think that when the State did finally pony up with the money and

took the PRR loco collection is about the time that the divorce settled

in between the railroad and the museum.



If there was anything serious at that time (1966-68) about Altoona

starting a railroad museum, I was not aware of it.  They were more

interested in what the future held for them under the Penn Central

regime that pitted Altoona against Collinwood as the backshop of choice.

There was very little, if any sentiment in either management for museum

pieces in those heady days.



WDV







-----Original Message-----

From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] 

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:27 PM

To: Bill Volkmer; 'Cadwell, Marvin L'; ndbprr@att.net;

Prr-Talk@dsop.com; 'Jerry Britton'

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona





--- Bill Volkmer  wrote:

> Au contraire.  The debate was NOT between Altoona and Strasburg.

> Rather

> it was between St. Louis Museum of Transport and Strasburg.  St.

> Louis

> got the P-5, WABCO got the I-1 and the rest went to Strasburg.



Pardon me, I think two debates of decades ago have gotten tangled

together.



1. PRR had a bunch of locomotives stashed in a roundhouse at

Northumberland. PRR wanted to get rid of them. Where should they go?

That one, I think, is the debate noted above.



2. Pennsylvania, the commonwealth, set out to establish a railroad

museum. Where should it go? In that debate, Altoona was a participant

and lost.



I don't remember the order in which those happened, but I seem to recall

that Strasburg, the railroad, had established itself as something of a

draw by the time the state went shopping for a museum site. Similarly,

Altoona had a museum, or was planning a museum, or had broken ground for

a museum, or something.



> I don't recall anyone in Altoona even suggesting the idea of

> getting into the museum business.



Perhaps not when the Northumberland collection was being dispersed, but

someone must have gotten the idea as evidenced by the existance of the

current existance of the museum in Altoona.



> You must remember that when Strasburg started as a

> tourist railroad in 1959, they were pretty much alone in the business.



But, at least in the beginning, Strasburg the Railroad and Strasburg the

Museum were two separate and distinct organizations.



Hoping I haven't muddied the waters too much,



=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

http://mailplus.yahoo.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:43:34 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/30/03 1:51 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote:



> I remember during my  tenure at Northumberland, the CMO of the Strasburg

> coming up to Northumberland on more than one occasion and helping

> himself to things like flue rattlers, washout plugs and gaskets etc. to

> keep the 1225 (D-16)in operation.  He almost took the G-5 to put into

> service when they got a good deal on the US Sugar 2-10-0 #90 that was

> already in good operating condition.  (The H-6 was in  far better

> mechanical condition than the G-5, but the G-5 was thought to have more

> passenger train appeal.)  The talk at that time was  of taking the whole

> collection and starting a museum on Strasburg RR property.  Naturally

> they were looking to the State of Penna for a handout to help finance

> it.  I think that when the State did finally pony up with the money and

> took the PRR loco collection is about the time that the divorce settled

> in between the railroad and the museum.

> 

True or not, that is a very logical explanation and would explain a lot.



"Divorce" may be too strong of a word. One is a state non-profit

institution; the other is a for-profit venture.



The RR continues to lease some museum equipment in its operations and, I

believe, some RR-owned equipment is on display at the museum.



Their operations at the same site draw more tourists than, I believe, either

would on its own.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:52:31 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Who Worked for the PRR?

From: Jerry Britton 



We recently see posts from numerous former-PRR employees who write something

to the effect of "when I was assigned at..." and then they relate their PRR

employment to the question at hand.



If the former-PRR employees on the list would oblige, I would very much

enjoy each of you posting your PRR-related bio as a new post. It might

incite some new chatter, shed light on old subjects, or key us in on who to

contact about a particular subject off-list.



I would recommend you...



1) Create a new message with the subject "PRR Bio - " followed by your name.



2) Create a paragraph by paragraph listing of the assignments you held with

the PRR, including approximate dates.



This would be equally great to have in the list archive. Please give it some

consideration. Thanks!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:07:11 -0500



I use the word "divorce" because when I last visited there in 1998 for

the first time in 25 or more years, I inquired inside the museum of the

present whereabouts of certain  people who were the movers and shakers

of the Strasburg RR.  I was greeted with a, "What are you asking ME for?

Those guys are probably across the street.  We got nuthin to do with

those guys!"   



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry

Britton

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:44 PM

To: PRR-Talk LIST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona





On 1/30/03 1:51 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote:



> I remember during my  tenure at Northumberland, the CMO of the 

> Strasburg coming up to Northumberland on more than one occasion and 

> helping himself to things like flue rattlers, washout plugs and 

> gaskets etc. to keep the 1225 (D-16)in operation.  He almost took the 

> G-5 to put into service when they got a good deal on the US Sugar 

> 2-10-0 #90 that was already in good operating condition.  (The H-6 was



> in  far better mechanical condition than the G-5, but the G-5 was 

> thought to have more passenger train appeal.)  The talk at that time 

> was  of taking the whole collection and starting a museum on Strasburg



> RR property.  Naturally they were looking to the State of Penna for a 

> handout to help finance it.  I think that when the State did finally 

> pony up with the money and took the PRR loco collection is about the 

> time that the divorce settled in between the railroad and the museum.

> 

True or not, that is a very logical explanation and would explain a lot.



"Divorce" may be too strong of a word. One is a state non-profit

institution; the other is a for-profit venture.



The RR continues to lease some museum equipment in its operations and, I

believe, some RR-owned equipment is on display at the museum.



Their operations at the same site draw more tourists than, I believe,

either would on its own.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone

Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "PennsyNut" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE and More!

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:58:35 -0600



Hi All.  IMHO!



I would only disagree with one point.  Life Like Proto 1000 has already done

some locos with what looks like good success.  So why limit to LLP 2000?  If

the DL109 can sell, so should the Centipede.  Another choice would be

Botchman, but I'm not sure they can do it right, so I agree there.  I have

no experience with Roco.  The only reason I bring this up is cost.  LLP1

would be far cheaper than LLP2, Athearn Genesis, or BLI.



As for dual engined, why?  With all those wheels?  And with proper

weighting?  In the "real" modeling world, what difference does a 6,000 hp

engine have with the normal 3,500 hp or so?  Either one on a model layout

would probably be able to pull more cars than "most" layouts can

accommodate.  I saw an Atlas RS2 or 3 pull more cars than we cared to

imagine.  Ditto for lots of other current diesel models.  And as for steam,

that's why there's Bowser!  LOL  And although I've not seen one, has anyone

ever built a single motored T1?  Does it pull?  And if the model requires 2

motors, is it because there are 2 sets of drivers?  Can't one motor be

linked through both sets of drivers?



A final IMHO - for those who don't like cast on grabs, etc. (as in LLP1), go

ahead and cut them off, etc.  That's what "modeling" is all about.  And at

$40 or so, what do you expect?  I am satisfied with my C-Liner.  The only

real complaint I have with any and all manufacturers is the DGLE.  Athearn

Genesis is about as close as I think we can expect.  (On mass produced,

non-brass).



Morgan Bilbo

Ferroequinologist

PRRTHS #1204 and SPF



----- Original Message -----

From: "Jerry Britton" 

To: "PGrace" ; "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ;

"Bruce Smith" 

Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" 

Sent: Thursday, 30 January, 2003 12:07 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE





> On 1/30/03 12:52 PM, PGrace (pgrace@aspects.net) wrote:

>

> > If Bachmann / Life Like are not interested we could try someone like

> > Roco....

> >

> I wouldn't waste time with Bachmann or Roco. If you're going to take the

> time to do this model, which would likely only ever be produced once, do

it

> right.

>

> I think it would have to be one of

>

>     Athearn Genesis

>     Life Like Proto 2000

>     Broadway Limited Imports

>

> I don't think Atlas or Kato would touch it, and am very doubtful about

> Athearn and Life Like. Given the limited appeal, I'd bet the only

practical

> route would be BLI...at about $500 per loco. Done right, it would be worth

> it.

>

> Remember, these were HUGE locos. In model railroad terms, each loco would

> really have two engines. So an A-A set would be like four locomotives. The

> real A-A units were 6000 hp, the same as an ABBA set of E7's.

>

> So you'd have a dual engine locomotive, with sound and DCC, for $500

retail.

> A pair of "normal" locos with widespread appeal would retail for around

> $300.

> -----------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

>



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PKMac101@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:59:21 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders plate





--part1_b2.1794f70e.2b6ad009_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



John.

        The HC1,engine number 3700, was a one of kind simple articulated loco 

built in 1919 at Juniata. Was at the time suppose to be the largest in the 

world. Its drawbar pull was to much for the cars of that time. It was not a 

sucessful locomotive. It ended up in pusher service, as did alot of oddball 

power right through the diesel years,and was retired some time in the 1930's. 

This info found in STAUFER's PENNSY POWER.



Pat McKinney



--part1_b2.1794f70e.2b6ad009_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



John.


        The HC1,engine number 3700, was a one of kind simple articulated loco built in 1919 at Juniata. Was at the time suppose to be the largest in the world. Its drawbar pull was to much for the cars of that time. It was not a sucessful locomotive. It ended up in pusher service, as did alot of oddball power right through the diesel years,and was retired some time in the 1930's. This info found in STAUFER's PENNSY POWER.





Pat McKinney



--part1_b2.1794f70e.2b6ad009_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:09:54 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE and More!

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/30/03 1:58 PM, PennsyNut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote:



> I would only disagree with one point.  Life Like Proto 1000 has already done

> some locos with what looks like good success.  So why limit to LLP 2000?



Detail. Again, if you're going to do it, do it right.



> If

> the DL109 can sell, so should the Centipede.  Another choice would be

> Botchman, but I'm not sure they can do it right, so I agree there.  I have

> no experience with Roco.  The only reason I bring this up is cost.  LLP1

> would be far cheaper than LLP2, Athearn Genesis, or BLI.

> 

> As for dual engined, why?  With all those wheels?  And with proper

> weighting?  In the "real" modeling world, what difference does a 6,000 hp

> engine have with the normal 3,500 hp or so?  Either one on a model layout

> would probably be able to pull more cars than "most" layouts can

> accommodate.  I saw an Atlas RS2 or 3 pull more cars than we cared to

> imagine.  Ditto for lots of other current diesel models.  And as for steam,

> that's why there's Bowser!  LOL  And although I've not seen one, has anyone

> ever built a single motored T1?  Does it pull?  And if the model requires 2

> motors, is it because there are 2 sets of drivers?  Can't one motor be

> linked through both sets of drivers?



My simple answer: count the wheels. The Centipede is "all wheels". Leaving

all but 2 axles unpowered would create so much drag in a heavy locomotive

that it would be self-defeating. Even the newer GG-1's from IHC have dual

motors. 



-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:19:05 -0500 (EST)

From: Derrick J Brashear 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE and More!



On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, PennsyNut wrote:



> Hi All.  IMHO!

> 

> I would only disagree with one point.  Life Like Proto 1000 has already done

> some locos with what looks like good success.  So why limit to LLP 2000?  If

> the DL109 can sell, so should the Centipede.  Another choice would be

> Botchman, but I'm not sure they can do it right, so I agree there.  I have



They probably can, but would they? Any comments on the E33s yet?



> no experience with Roco.  The only reason I bring this up is cost.  LLP1

> would be far cheaper than LLP2, Athearn Genesis, or BLI.



Likewise, I guess we haven't seen the new Roco diesels; The steam they did

for Life-Like looked very nice.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Pete Reinhold" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser I1 question

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:17:57 -0600



Morgan Bilbo asked: What is that minimum radius with those additional

flanged drivers?

---

I don't know about the Bowser but my PFM with all drivers flanged will

make it around a 22" radius no problem. Hope this is of some help.



Pete Reinhold









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:20:35 -0500

From: Dan Cupper 

Subject: [PRR] Altoona/Strasburg/Mount Union (long)



Jerry Britton wrote:

> 

>>  

> I could be wrong, but I don't think Altoona was established then, didn't have all the property it has now, etc. Probably wasn't even an option. The

> powers that be in Altoona at the time probably didn't want to fork over the

> properties to the state for their control of the museum, either.

>>



Greetings to Jerry, Stephen, Bill, and the List:



In the early 1960s, no Altoona museum organization was in existence, but

then, none was needed; promoters of each of the three candidate sites

under consideration (Altoona, Mount Union, Strasburg) were under the

(correct) assumption that the state would administer the site, wherever

it was finally located. In each community, it was left to local civic

boosters/chamber of commerce types to make the case for their location.



PRR was officially on record as favoring Altoona as the site selection.

Talk is cheap, of course, and no evidence survives to suggest that PRR

ever offered any portion of the hundreds of acres of (by then) surplus

real estate it owned in the city. East Broad Top offered much land in

the Mount Union yards, and of course would have extended its restored

trackage and steam operation northward to Mount Union had the state

chosen that town.



The Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission deliberated and, by a

margin of *one vote*, chose Strasburg as the site for the state museum.

The nature and result of that process was controversial then and has

remained so ever since. In the context of state railroad history,

neither Strasburg nor Lancaster County generally has ever been known as

a railroad center -- one would never think of either in the same

category as, say, Reading, Altoona, Sayre, McKees Rocks, Harrisburg,

Enola, Pitcairn, Conway, DuBois, Greenville, Renovo, Eddystone, or even

Scranton -- i.e., no major yards or shops, no major passenger

facilities, no landmark-status fixtures or facilities, and comparatively

speaking, no major railroad employment base. Think of the final

selection as the equivalent of placing the Pennsylvania Farm Museum in

downtown Erie (except that that was placed in Lancaster County, too,

where it logically fits the heritage, geography, culture, and pattern of

land use).



PHMC wanted to place the museum *next to* an operating steam railroad

but didn't want to get into the cost and technical involvement of

mounting and running a steam program. From PHMC's standpoint, this was

one of the biggest strikes against Altoona -- no steam and no prospect

of steam. One of the strongest arguments for Strasburg was the

double-pronged existence of the Strasburg Rail Road and the

Penn-Dutch/Amish Country tourism base that was situated within easy

driving distance of Philadelphia and the East Coast. This would, they

reasoned, guarantee a built-in flow of paying customers through any

museum that might be placed there, thus reducing the subsidy that the

state would have to fork out.



The relative remoteness of the other two sites counted heavily against

them. Altoona boosters pointed out that Horseshoe Curve drew a lot of

tourists -- they claimed 100,000 a year but with no way to document

that, who knows what the real figure was? With the Curve and the

heritage of a railroad shop town employing, at its peak, some 16,000

workers, Altoona boosters believed it to be unthinkable that the state

would not locate the museum there.



As it turned out, they couldn't have been more wrong.



Soon after the selection, when outraged voices were raised from Altoona,

a PHMC official tried to put a spin on it all, saying that building a

single museum would not reverse the downward economic slide that Altoona

was then experiencing (ironically enough, as a result of PRR laying off

thousands of workers as the labor-saving effects of dieselization

continued to permeate the organization).



The elected Blair County delegation in Harrisburg got a resolution

passed in the state House 146-51 urging a reconsideration of the vote.

But of course, resolutions carry exactly as much weight as the paper

they're printed on. The sour-grapes response was summarized by Blair

County's Senator D. Emmert Brumbaugh, who said the museum should have

gone to Altoona because it was (direct quote) "the ideal American

railroad town. Instead, the Historical and Museum Commission has

recommended that it be put in a small non-railroad community, where an

old short-line railroad operates a tourist ride." Further info on this

and the debate is carried in THE PENNSY issue of 5-1-1965, p. 6.



History happens where it happens, not where we would like it to happen

for external reasons. Would we build a Battle of Gettysburg museum in

York because the latter is on an Interstate and the former is not? With

that said, when I go to the RMPa in Strasburg to do research in the

library or archives, there's absolutely no reason why that experience

would be any more productive or successful if it were in Altoona. At

this remove, there's no point to re-fighting the battle. We can only

imagine what might have happened had PRR offered, and PHMC accepted, the

East Altoona Enginehouse.



Dan Cupper

Harrisburg, Pa.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:30:40 -0800

From: Ken Douglas 

Subject: [PRR] Re: Centipede



Mr. McDaniel is exactly correct.  I was the author of the Trains article

on the NdeM Centipedes in the May 1982 issue.



While discussing the article with Dave Ingles on the article.  I related

the incident to him about the "one-hundred  feets."  Dave used the story

in the Second Section column, Here is an except from this story:



"Riding Fiat motor car going south from San Luis Potosi, Ken got in a

conversation with the motorman, who had not used his excellent English

in several years.  The language was still coming back to him when we

passed one of the NdeM Centipedes in a siding.  The motorman asked Ken

'Do you know what we call these?'  After Ken answered in the negative,

the motorman replied, 'One-hundred feets.'"



Ken Douglas





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:32:20 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] HC1 Builders plate



John said:

>a guy named xx gave this

plate to my guy here, as a going away present. He was told this was a

plate that was to go on the 3633 but shorty after the engine  ( which he

was told was an experiment ) was finished it was dismantled.  the

builders plate was never even put on.



Pat replied

>John.         The HC1,engine number 3700, was a one of kind simple

>articulated loco built in 1919 at Juniata. Was at the time suppose to be

>the largest in the world. Its drawbar pull was to much for the cars of

>that time. It was not a sucessful locomotive. It ended up in pusher

>service, as did alot of oddball power right through the diesel years,and

>was retired some time in the 1930's. This info found in STAUFER's PENNSY

>POWER.  Pat McKinney



I'll add that the loco can be seen on Gary's page at:

http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/images/prr3700.jpg

If you look, you will see the builder's plate on the side of the smokebox.



The number on the plate in John's photo is 3633, which may represent the

production number of #3700...is this in Edson's roster?  If it is, the

plate is one-of-a-kind (OK, one of two since there were two per loco) and

if it is not a fake, it is worth something indeed...The story John recounts

sounds like fiction/fantasy to me.



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

                           __

                          /  \

  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |

 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|

 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:33:24 -0400

From: A Samostie 

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes





"James L. McDaniel" wrote:

> 

> a Centipede should be a "hundred feets" even in Mexico.

> 

> Jim McDaniel, 2 feet in Delmarva





Dear Jim,



¡Es verdad!  a centipede = un ciempiés

             a millipede = un milpiés



Of course, neither insect actually has the number of feet referred to by

its name, and I seem to recall that "un milpiés" is more commonly used

in Spanish.  Either way, it's an NdeM locomotive with lots of wheels!



Now, one additional question about all this...

CNJ had Baldwin "babyface" cab units of several different models and

horsepower ratings, both single and double-ended.  I always thought that

both CNJ and CNW had Centipedes, but I have since learned otherwise. 

Any guesses as to why CNJ didn't actually have them?



On a CNJ-related note... Did the PRR Centipedes ever operate on the

NY&LB ?



And... looking at the Centipedes with all those driving wheels, I always

thought they were designed for heavy freight.  Again, I have since

learned otherwise... but why would so many wheels be needed for a

passenger diesel?  Traction / adhesion -- surely A1A trucks were enough?



Cheers,

Alan Samostie









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:46:01 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: Jerry Britton 



Time will tell if the Altoona museum can be "financially saved". Altoona

remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you can stand trackside and

"smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and Tuscan power drifting by, with

Tuscan varnish to boot.



The museum's interpretive collection, in the Master Mechanic's building, is

first rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock collection, outside, is

in extremely poor shape.



I haven't been there in 18 months. The 1/4 round house was supposed to be

under construction. Is it? As soon as some internal storage space comes

available, perhaps there's hope.



To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions. I don't believe NS

will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope, except perhaps for

RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw tourists, must an Altoona

excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?



Due to track removal by NS, there is some excess right-of-way through the

station area and down through the WORKS area. A question would be: Might

enough room be available through the east/south edge of the yards to allow

one track to be open for excursions in the eastbound direction? It would be

level (safe) and perhaps a pretty decent run could be managed...perhaps even

negotiated all the way to Tyrone. That run would equal or best what

Strasburg offers. (And we haven't even discussed theme or dinner trains.)



The solution may be to look east for excursions, not west.



It would be a shame for #1361 to be restored to life and have no place to

run. And Altoona will take her to the grave before sending it to Strasburg.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Cprrboss@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:01:59 EST

Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/30/03





--part1_4e.16ece1a1.2b6adeb7_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 1:12:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:





> Subject: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy

> finances



How about maintaining the loco (1361 or as suggested 3750) at Strasburg and 

running on the AMTRAK main line between Harrisburg and somewhere west of 

Philly.  For example, the new (if it gets built) AMTRAK station at Paradise.  

Better run for speed; closer to large population area's; would be where there 

are folks that know what they are doing around steam; could occasionally 

stray into NS territory like Altoona and the Curve or the NE corridor between 

Philly and Perryville and then onto the Port Road and north to Harrisburg (or 

Enola/Rockville) if NS could be convinced.



--part1_4e.16ece1a1.2b6adeb7_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 1:12:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:








Subject: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy


finances






How about maintaining the loco (1361 or as suggested 3750) at Strasburg and running on the AMTRAK main line between Harrisburg and somewhere west of Philly.  For example, the new (if it gets built) AMTRAK station at Paradise.  Better run for speed; closer to large population area's; would be where there are folks that know what they are doing around steam; could occasionally stray into NS territory like Altoona and the Curve or the NE corridor between Philly and Perryville and then onto the Port Road and north to Harrisburg (or Enola/Rockville) if NS could be convinced.



--part1_4e.16ece1a1.2b6adeb7_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ALGUCKES@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:10:30 EST

Subject: [PRR] (no subject)





--part1_28.32cba738.2b6ae0b6_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Folks:



Was not the Steam Town museum in Vermont closed to move several locomotives 

to Altoona? What is the real potential in Altoona given its geographic 

location? I think I rmember reading that this museum was kind of a political 

boon doggle. However, it certainly is a logical place for a museum given its 

history. I think the state musuem around Strasburg is successful. But its 

location is much more central to tourist traffic. Comments?



Al Guckes



--part1_28.32cba738.2b6ae0b6_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Folks:





Was not the Steam Town museum in Vermont closed to move several locomotives to Altoona? What is the real potential in Altoona given its geographic location? I think I rmember reading that this museum was kind of a political boon doggle. However, it certainly is a logical place for a museum given its history. I think the state musuem around Strasburg is successful. But its location is much more central to tourist traffic. Comments?





Al Guckes



--part1_28.32cba738.2b6ae0b6_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 

Subject: [PRR] PRR Bio-Gregg Mahlkov

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:20:10 -0500



OK, Jerry, here goes:



Was hired by I. T. Marine, AVP-Freight Sales and told to report to the PRR

sales Office in New Orleans, LA, on May 9, 1962, as Steno-Clerk. Since I

could neither type nor take shorthand, the District Sales Manager asked

Philadelphia why I was hired. HQ reply was to promote me to Office Manager..

Took me six months to convince the office I wasn't a spy sent by

Philadelphia. PRR used these jobs for sales training, and I guess I'd done a

good enough sales job on Ted Marine to get hired!!.



In April 1964 I was transferred to Cleveland, Ohio, as Rate Clerk in the

Regional Sales office (I had studied freight rate construction at Tulane

University), where I promptly got tangled up in the sale of the Sandusky

Branch to the N&W, having to work with the Nickel Plate guys in Cleveland to

find which PRR rates now applied locally on the N&W or as joint-line rates.



In December 1964 I was transferred to Baltimore, Maryland, as a Sales

Representative. At age 23 with less than 3 years service, this was somewhat

of an experiment. I had a city territory in Baltimore, basically one fifth

of the city, plus commodity responsibility for Freight Forwarders,

Perishable Receivers, and Fertilizer companies.



January 1, 1967 I was transferred back to New Orleans, LA, as a Sales

Representative, covering New Orleans, Baton Rouge, and what is generally

referred to as "Cajun country" in South Louisiana. This included the

"American Ruhr" from New Orleans to Baton Rouge with many chemical plants

shipping to PRR points and beyond.



We all know what happened on February 1, 1968...................



I continued in New Orleans as a Sales Representative for the PC, with a

slightly different territory, until 1973, when I was transferred to Atlanta.

I remained there until I resigned from what was by that time Conrail,

effective December 31, 1978.



After that, I worked for the Erie Western, Chicago & Indiana, and

Apalachicola Northern, retiring from the AN as its Director, Marketing &

Sales at the end of November, 1999.



Gregg Mahlkov









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:23:00 -0500 (EST)

From: Derrick J Brashear 

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)



On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 ALGUCKES@aol.com wrote:



> Folks:

> 

> Was not the Steam Town museum in Vermont closed to move several locomotives 

> to Altoona? 



Scranton.



> I think I rmember reading that this museum was kind of a political 

> boon doggle. 



Still Scranton.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:22:24 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Altoona

From: "Stephen H. Prosser" 



Dear Listers,



Thanks for all the diverse discourse on the Altoona and the PA Railroad

Museum.



Jerry is certainly correct about the "difficulties" about running excursions

on NS's lines.  The last time #1361 ran an excursion, I believe all

participants had to quarantine their first-born children as insurance.



One small point I would like to make is that Altoona was quite in the thick

of things regarding the site of the PA RR Museum.  I know this from memory

because my Dad, Bill Prosser, was Mayor of Altoona during the time.

Although I was a young teenager, I remember that he was very frustrated with

the process (along with our state rep--I forget his name--and upon whom the

failure to get the site fell upon unfortunately).



I have my Dad's detailed scrapbooks from that period and I'm sure that I

could dig out some interesting info on the matter.



Regardless, I'm sure we are all happy that the PRR lives on at Strasburg;  I

just hope that Altoona can rebound.  I-99 (North to South access between

I-80 and the PA Turnpike) has been approved for completion.  That will make

the city a more easily accessible site for PRR-related history and (let's

not forget) the Portage Railroad.





-- 

Steve Prosser

sprosser@attbi.com

--





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:23:42 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders plate



John,



     The Plate you showed us is from the PRR HC-1 2-8-8-0. It was a

short lived Locomotive that was too powerful for it's day. 



     The story about your friends plate is interesting. BUT, the plate

is a reproduction. I know that for a fact. I know the person who

actually owns the 2 Originals. Yes, he owns both HC1 Builders Plates. I

have seen them. ! There surely wasn't 3!!!!.......Gary











Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, Historical Items and  Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>



PRR Loco Pics:

http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com



&



http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html

and......



PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:



http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:28:21 -0500

From: "Andrew S. Miller" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE



The number of roads which used the loco is not relevant to Bachmann.

They would produce them in PRR, NYC, NH, GN, UP, ATSF, SP, C&O.  They

would not do SAL or NdeM.  These roads don't sell ;-)



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



==================================================

KNesbitt@penncro.com wrote:



>

>

> I would personally think that since Bachman has released a E44

> electric model, maybe a centipede would not be out of the question.

> How many roads used the E44 and number of units compared to the

> centipede ?

>

> Ken Nesbitt

>







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:40:30 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/30/03 3:28 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote:



> The number of roads which used the loco is not relevant to Bachmann.

> They would produce them in PRR, NYC, NH, GN, UP, ATSF, SP, C&O.  They

> would not do SAL or NdeM.  These roads don't sell ;-)

> 

Or, worse yet, they would make them in everything BUT PRR!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:44:22 -0500

From: BPX29@aol.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE and More!/ Roco, Broadway Ltd,etc



Folks,

Well, at least it seems there's plenty of Centipede interest on this list, it seems. I'd sure buy a pair just because they're so appealing, in their own strange way, and because I love Baldwins. Who knows, the model might have reasonable appeal to the general modeling market, which I think was the case with the DL109. (At least it seemed that way, as the local shop sold out their 18 copies in one day, a lot of them to fellas who don't model any of the owning roads).

In any event, Roco might be worth a look. They did a fine job on LifeLike's articulated. They also did Atlas's Alco switchers and Walthers H1044, all nicely -done models.



On the other hand, I finally got a hands-on look at the Broadway Hudson. I must say it's an appealing model too, particularly around the drivers and on a lot of the added-on parts and piping. The tender deck and other parts were less so. I felt the engine had crisper and finer detail than the Spectrum USRA 4-8-2, but less so than the Athearn Genesis USRA engines, from what I could see. I'm holding a few reservations until I see some more of their steamers. It looks like they're planning, besides the E unit and Pennsy stuff, to do a heavy USRA mike in a line that has a few less frills. Could be promising, but I'd have no doubts about Roco.



This is probably pie in the sky anyway, but we can always hope.I'm a bit surprised that nobody's done an Alco HH switcher yet, as these had many prototype users from coast to coast.

Regards,

Barry Peltier



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:46:45 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE



Lew asked me (and y'all):

>Bruce:

>

>Aside from the marketing opportunities, which I believe are adequate, what

>about erection drawings, painting and lettering schematics etc.?  Does our

>group have sufficient resources to present a package to Bachman that they

>can use to design a loco?



>The question then is: "should we, as an organization, pursue this agenda?"

>I believe a project like this has more merit for our group than most of the

>projects that have been proposed.



And lots of you replied with ideas, speculation, and discussion.



My answer?  YES



BOTTOM LINE:  I am willing to present this project idea to several contacts

that I have or know how to reach.  I do not have the time to do the leg

work.  If you want to send me stuff, I'll put a package together and plead

our case to whomever will listen.  I have been told REPEATEDLY that the

person who comes with the data, often gets the model.



I WILL NEED:

1)  Full drawings of the superstructure and running gear

2)  Paint and lettering diagrams for each scheme for PRR, Seaboard, NdeM

3)  Appropriate color matches for Seaboard and NdeM (I've got PRR!)

4)  Photographs of each scheme (not photocopies)

5)  Histories (full details...built dates, numbers, modifications,

scrapping dates) for EACH railroad.



I beleive that y'all can come up with the stuff, but if we don't have ALL

the pieces, it isn't going to happen.  The major companies have become very

sensitive to the issue of prototype accuracy and are generally unwilling to

gamble on guesses.



Good Luck, and I await your packages 

Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

                           __

                          /  \

  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |

 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|

 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ndbprr@att.net

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:50:52 +0000



When Baldwin built the engine they were used to designing steam and the 4-8-8-4 

wheel arrangement was a natural progression.  The original plan called for a 

series of small diesels mounted transverse to the carbody.  I don't recall 

offhand if it was one for each wheel set or one per two wheel sets  but the 

idea was redundancy and changing out entire drive units in the event of 

failure.  Apparently someone at one of the RR's convinced them this wasn't a 

good strategy or the competition did so two turbo charged engines becane the 

norm.

> 

> "James L. McDaniel" wrote:

> > 

> > a Centipede should be a "hundred feets" even in Mexico.

> > 

> > Jim McDaniel, 2 feet in Delmarva

> 

> 

> Dear Jim,

> 

> ¡Es verdad!  a centipede = un ciempiés

>              a millipede = un milpiés

> 

> Of course, neither insect actually has the number of feet referred to by

> its name, and I seem to recall that "un milpiés" is more commonly used

> in Spanish.  Either way, it's an NdeM locomotive with lots of wheels!

> 

> Now, one additional question about all this...

> CNJ had Baldwin "babyface" cab units of several different models and

> horsepower ratings, both single and double-ended.  I always thought that

> both CNJ and CNW had Centipedes, but I have since learned otherwise. 

> Any guesses as to why CNJ didn't actually have them?

> 

> On a CNJ-related note... Did the PRR Centipedes ever operate on the

> NY&LB ?

> 

> And... looking at the Centipedes with all those driving wheels, I always

> thought they were designed for heavy freight.  Again, I have since

> learned otherwise... but why would so many wheels be needed for a

> passenger diesel?  Traction / adhesion -- surely A1A trucks were enough?

> 

> Cheers,

> Alan Samostie

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:55:54 -0500

From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Subject: [PRR] EMD Builders photos for sale



Bill, Jerry and all,



I was just wondering if Bill owned these originals or if he is selling copies of the origianals with permission of EMD.



The resason I ask is that it seems to me that there was a problem with this on a particular website we all enjoy. If these are EMD Builders photos I would be surprised to know that anyone but EMD has the rights to sell them, and I would certainly not sell them with someones name on them that might mislead someone else to believe that the photos are are the property or taken by someone other than EMD's. 



Abuses of privleges like this lead to mega problems for others wishing to use photos for reference in the future. It's kinda like getting a photo from the historical society and then distributing them as if they were ones own. 



I was just wondering about a couple of minor details...







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ndbprr@att.net

Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Worked for the PRR?

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:58:02 +0000



I would also like to extend an invitation to Ex-PRR employees to be added to 

the Chicago Chapter mailing list and to come to our meeting when in the area. 

We would love to have you attend and participate in our meetings.  Norm Bell

> We recently see posts from numerous former-PRR employees who write something

> to the effect of "when I was assigned at..." and then they relate their PRR

> employment to the question at hand.

> 

> If the former-PRR employees on the list would oblige, I would very much

> enjoy each of you posting your PRR-related bio as a new post. It might

> incite some new chatter, shed light on old subjects, or key us in on who to

> contact about a particular subject off-list.

> 

> I would recommend you...

> 

> 1) Create a new message with the subject "PRR Bio - " followed by your name.

> 

> 2) Create a paragraph by paragraph listing of the assignments you held with

> the PRR, including approximate dates.

> 

> This would be equally great to have in the list archive. Please give it some

> consideration. Thanks!

> -----------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> 

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ndbprr@att.net

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/30/03

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:46:36 +0000



No steam engine is run at speed for the most part.  Up has great concerns about 

the 4-8-4.  It is almost 60 years old.  I suspect the K4 is more like 80 years 

old.  About 50 mph would be tops for her I am afraid and then not for very long.

> In a message dated 1/30/03 1:12:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

> 

> 

> > Subject: [PRR] K4 1361+Horseshoe curve+Altoona RR museum=healthy

> > finances

> 

> How about maintaining the loco (1361 or as suggested 3750) at Strasburg and 

> running on the AMTRAK main line between Harrisburg and somewhere west of 

> Philly.  For example, the new (if it gets built) AMTRAK station at Paradise.  

> Better run for speed; closer to large population area's; would be where there 

> are folks that know what they are doing around steam; could occasionally 

> stray into NS territory like Altoona and the Curve or the NE corridor between 

> Philly and Perryville and then onto the Port Road and north to Harrisburg (or 

> Enola/Rockville) if NS could be convinced.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:23:24 -0500 (EST)

From: Derrick J Brashear 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE and More!/ Roco, Broadway Ltd,etc



On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 BPX29@aol.com wrote:



> Folks,

> Well, at least it seems there's plenty of Centipede interest on this

> list, it seems. I'd sure buy a pair just because they're so appealing,



I'd buy a fleet if they were decent models.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Centipedes

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:04:36 -0500



A Samostie wrote:



And... looking at the Centipedes with all those driving wheels, I always

thought they were designed for heavy freight.  Again, I have since

learned otherwise... but why would so many wheels be needed for a

passenger diesel?  Traction / adhesion -- surely A1A trucks were enough?



Reply;



If one looks closely at the running gear of a centipede one sees a

striking similarity with the GG-1 underframe.  Both underframes two

halves "pinned" together at the center with a center pin.



On the annual boiler wash inspection, we used to check the play in the

center pin on the GG-1s by cutting the traction motors out on one half

of the unit and "stretching" the two halves.  The inspector used a long

steel rod with a 90 degree bend on each end.  He would make a scratch

mark in the dirt on the underframe before the hostler stretched the unit

and then would make another scratch mark after the frames were

stretched.  The distance between the two scratch marks indicated the

amount of wear on the center pin.  I forget what the condemning limits

were, but I believe it was on the order of a quarter of an inch.



Although I don't recall seeing it done, I am sure that they were

required to do the same thing on the centipedes on the annual

inspection.  



Bottom line is that I personally am convinced that the GG-1 was the

grand-daddy of the Baldwin Centipede.  In passenger service, they were

never what we might refer to as speed demons.  They had trouble getting

out of their own way!



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of A

Samostie

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:33 PM

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Centipedes







"James L. McDaniel" wrote:

> 

> a Centipede should be a "hundred feets" even in Mexico.

> 

> Jim McDaniel, 2 feet in Delmarva





Dear Jim,



¡Es verdad!  a centipede = un ciempiés

             a millipede = un milpiés



Of course, neither insect actually has the number of feet referred to by

its name, and I seem to recall that "un milpiés" is more commonly used

in Spanish.  Either way, it's an NdeM locomotive with lots of wheels!



Now, one additional question about all this...

CNJ had Baldwin "babyface" cab units of several different models and

horsepower ratings, both single and double-ended.  I always thought that

both CNJ and CNW had Centipedes, but I have since learned otherwise. 

Any guesses as to why CNJ didn't actually have them?



On a CNJ-related note... Did the PRR Centipedes ever operate on the

NY&LB ?



And... looking at the Centipedes with all those driving wheels, I always

thought they were designed for heavy freight.  Again, I have since

learned otherwise... but why would so many wheels be needed for a

passenger diesel?  Traction / adhesion -- surely A1A trucks were enough?



Cheers,

Alan Samostie









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:51:23 -0600

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 







> 

> To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions.



I agree with this 1000% Jerry.  From personal experience I know that

interest in having birthday parties and like events at the Galveston

Railroad Museum increased once word of mouth news circulated that I was

giving the kids cab rides in our diesel switcher.  And this is just inside

the confines of the museum yard.



A railroad museum with perpetually non-moving equipment can be visited only

so many times before boredom sets in.  As I have told the other board

members since I joined the board, something HAS to move to maintain

interest.





Don Harper

Marine Laboratory

Texas A&M - Galveston

5007 Avenue U

Galveston, TX  77551

409/740-4540



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:22:26 -0800 (PST)

From: Ronald Di Orio 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



--0-739167817-1043965346=:22126

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii





Unfortunately, while I agree that any official Pennsylvania State Railroad museum should have been located in Altoona, those that point out that Altoona is not in a very good geographic location to attract casual visitors are correct.  For all intents and purposes, there is no reason to visit Altoona unless one wants to visit Altoona, and other than friends and family and a minor league baseball team, about the only reason for any visit to Altoona is its historical connection with the PRR.  Moreover, the city is, as has been pointed out, bypassed by the modern interstate system.  I do think that excursion trains are a possibility, running from Pittsburgh, but even these would require considerable promotion and I have my doubts that enough patronage could be generated to support more than one or two trains per year, perhaps a summer train and a foilage special in the fall.  A couple of years ago, one could take a train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe to dine at a restaurant that had been ope

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.







---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-739167817-1043965346=:22126

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii




Unfortunately, while I agree that any official Pennsylvania State Railroad museum should have been located in Altoona, those that point out that Altoona is not in a very good geographic location to attract casual visitors are correct.  For all intents and purposes, there is no reason to visit Altoona unless one wants to visit Altoona, and other than friends and family and a minor league baseball team, about the only reason for any visit to Altoona is its historical connection with the PRR.  Moreover, the city is, as has been pointed out, bypassed by the modern interstate system.  I do think that excursion trains are a possibility, running from Pittsburgh, but even these would require considerable promotion and I have my doubts that enough patronage could be generated to support more than one or two trains per year, perhaps a summer train and a foilage special in the fall.  A couple of years ago, one could take a train from Pittsburgh to L

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-739167817-1043965346=:22126--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:32:49 -0800 (PST)

From: Ronald Di Orio 

Subject: Re: [PRR] CENTIPEDE and More!



--0-258948139-1043965969=:87201

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii





Remember also, that there is a market for those who collect locomotive models.  Centipedes are ideal for that market in being large, unusual, and attractive in their own way.  Problem for overall marketing is the usual expected number of sales at a given price point, and unfortunately, even a poorly done centipede model in plastic is going to be an expensive proposition.  And as has been pointed out, you really need two of them to be correct.  Nevertheless, I would love to have a pair to head a model of the No 13 or 14 Mail and Express running through Burgettstown. Will have to also get a few of those new Walthers express reefers!  Ron





> Hi All. IMHO!

> 

> I would only disagree with one point. Life Like Proto 1000 has already done

> some locos with what looks like good success. So why limit to LLP 2000? If

> the DL109 can sell, so should the Centipede. Another choice would be

> Botchman, but I'm not sure they can do it right, so I agree there. I have



They probably can, but would they? Any comments on the E33s yet?



> no experience with Roco. The only reason I bring this up is cost. LLP1

> would be far cheaper than LLP2, Athearn Genesis, or BLI.



Likewise, I guess we haven't seen the new Roco diesels; The steam they did

for Life-Like looked very nice.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.







---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-258948139-1043965969=:87201

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii




Remember also, that there is a market for those who collect locomotive models.  Centipedes are ideal for that market in being large, unusual, and attractive in their own way.  Problem for overall marketing is the usual expected number of sales at a given price point, and unfortunately, even a poorly done centipede model in plastic is going to be an expensive proposition.  And as has been pointed out, you really need two of them to be correct.  Nevertheless, I would love to have a pair to head a model of the No 13 or 14 Mail and Express running through Burgettstown. Will have to also get a few of those new Walthers express reefers!  Ron




> Hi All. IMHO!
> 
> I would only disagree with one point. Life Like Proto 1000 has already done
> some locos with what looks like good success. So why limit to LLP 2000? If
> the DL109 can sell, so should the Centipede. Another choice would be
> Botchman, but I'm not sure they can do it right, so I agree there. I have

They probably can, but would they? Any comments on the E33s yet?

> no experience with Roco. The only reason I bring this up is cost. LLP1
> would be far cheaper than LLP2, Athearn Genesis, or BLI.

Likewise, I guess we haven't seen the new Roco diesels; The steam they did
for Life-Like looked very nice.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

Do you Yahoo!?


Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-258948139-1043965969=:87201--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:42:36 -0800 (PST)

From: Ronald Di Orio 

Subject: [PRR] Problem with e-mails



--0-1288808398-1043966556=:10072

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Can't figure this out.  Once again the last few sentences of the message I sent to PRR-talk were cut off.  I know that they are there because the entire message is still in my "sent" file.  Any idea why this is happening?  As you indicated you can't accept attachments, I tried forwarding from my sent file as a text message only, hoping that will work.  Otherwise, I guess I have to retype the entire message unless you have a better suggestion.  Thanks.  Ron





---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-1288808398-1043966556=:10072

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii



Can't figure this out.  Once again the last few sentences of the message I sent to PRR-talk were cut off.  I know that they are there because the entire message is still in my "sent" file.  Any idea why this is happening?  As you indicated you can't accept attachments, I tried forwarding from my sent file as a text message only, hoping that will work.  Otherwise, I guess I have to retype the entire message unless you have a better suggestion.  Thanks.  Ron

Do you Yahoo!?


Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-1288808398-1043966556=:10072--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:42:25 EST

Subject: [PRR] CENTIPEDE RESEARCH





--part1_3b.32b97e51.2b6b0451_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 9:26:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net 

writes:





> 

> Bruce:

> 

> Aside from the marketing opportunities, which I believe are adequate, what

> about erection drawings, painting and lettering schematics etc.?  Does our

> group have sufficient resources to present a package to Bachman that they

> can use to design a loco?

> 



MTH electric trains (Columbia, Md)recently did a nice 2&3 rail version in 

1/4" SCALE - a real brute, with 4 motors and 4 prolific smoke units - I've 

heard no complaints from either "scale" or "Tinplate" types - (real ones had 

"Tinplate" front ends - as lead trucks pivoted) 

I'd bet the MTH drawings are already CAD/CAM in a Samhongsa's Korean computer 

- & that they'd be happy to rent or license them to any interested party with 

cash - up front.



Dick Ross



--part1_3b.32b97e51.2b6b0451_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 9:26:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes:












Bruce:





Aside from the marketing opportunities, which I believe are adequate, what


about erection drawings, painting and lettering schematics etc.?  Does our


group have sufficient resources to present a package to Bachman that they


can use to design a loco?









MTH electric trains (Columbia, Md)recently did a nice 2&3 rail version in 1/4" SCALE - a real brute, with 4 motors and 4 prolific smoke units - I've heard no complaints from either "scale" or "Tinplate" types - (real ones had "Tinplate" front ends - as lead trucks pivoted) 


I'd bet the MTH drawings are already CAD/CAM in a Samhongsa's Korean computer - & that they'd be happy to rent or license them to any interested party with cash - up front.





Dick Ross



--part1_3b.32b97e51.2b6b0451_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:51:28 -0600

Subject: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

From: John Sheets 



PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations



Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427



Did they also have names?



TIA

John





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:51:31 -0800 (PST)

From: Ronald Di Orio 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



--0-1278458494-1043967091=:40825

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii





OK, here's what was cut off from my previous communications.  A couple of years ago, one could take a day train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe for dinner at a restaurant that had been opened in the newly restored Latrobe station.  Due to weekend work at that time, I never had the opportunity to take the trip.  Does anyone know if this is still running?  If a dinner excursion day trip failed financially, and this is something that had appeal to the general public, I would not have much hope for excursions to Altoona, more lengthy in time and drawing from a much more limited number of possible buyers.  RonTime will tell if the Altoona museum can be "financially saved". Altoona

remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you can stand trackside and

"smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and Tuscan power drifting by, with

Tuscan varnish to boot.



The museum's interpretive collection, in the Master Mechanic's building, is

first rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock collection, outside, is

in extremely poor shape.



I haven't been there in 18 months. The 1/4 round house was supposed to be

under construction. Is it? As soon as some internal storage space comes

available, perhaps there's hope.



To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions. I don't believe NS

will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope, except perhaps for

RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw tourists, must an Altoona

excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?



Due to track removal by NS, there is some excess right-of-way through the

station area and down through the WORKS area. A question would be: Might

enough room be available through the east/south edge of the yards to allow

one track to be open for excursions in the eastbound direction? It would be

level (safe) and perhaps a pretty decent run could be managed...perhaps even

negotiated all the way to Tyrone. That run would equal or best what

Strasburg offers. (And we haven't even discussed theme or dinner trains.)



The solution may be to look east for excursions, not west.



It would be a shame for #1361 to be restored to life and have no place to

run. And Altoona will take her to the grave before sending it to Strasburg.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-1278458494-1043967091=:40825

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii




OK, here's what was cut off from my previous communications.  A couple of years ago, one could take a day train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe for dinner at a restaurant that had been opened in the newly restored Latrobe station.  Due to weekend work at that time, I never had the opportunity to take the trip.  Does anyone know if this is still running?  If a dinner excursion day trip failed financially, and this is something that had appeal to the general public, I would not have much hope for excursions to Altoona, more lengthy in time and drawing from a much more limited number of possible buyers.  Ron


Time will tell if the Altoona museum can be "financially saved". Altoona
remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you can stand trackside and
"smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and Tuscan power drifting by, with
Tuscan varnish to boot.

The museum's interpretive collection, in the Master Mechanic's building, is
first rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock collection, outside, is
in extremely poor shape.

I haven't been there in 18 months. The 1/4 round house was supposed to be
under construction. Is it? As soon as some internal storage space comes
available, perhaps there's hope.

To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions. I don't believe NS
will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope, except perhaps for
RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw tourists, must an Altoona
excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?



Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-1278458494-1043967091=:40825--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:56:29 EST

Subject: [PRR] OTHER ODDITIES





--part1_199.14d55e9c.2b6b079d_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 10:35:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

preinhol@unidie.com writes:





> I must assume the answer is yes. The "package" is a key part of moving

> any project along according to an employee of Life-Like. Will we see a

> centipede if we do this. I can't say. I will say that we have an

> erie-built, a C-liner and a DL-109. Who would have thought this would

> have happened.

> 

> Pete Reinhold





MTH has also done fairly accurate "O" scale plastic shells for the "C" liner 

(I think they did the B-C version) and the DL 109 - all an interested MFG 

would have to do would be to pay a license, hit a few buttons on the 

computer, (reduce 1/48 to 1/87 and build the chassis.

MTH has already done this on many designs reducing 1/4" scale dimensions to 

3/16" to make "0-27" size versions.

Dick Ross











--part1_199.14d55e9c.2b6b079d_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 10:35:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, preinhol@unidie.com writes:









I must assume the answer is yes. The "package" is a key part of moving


any project along according to an employee of Life-Like. Will we see a


centipede if we do this. I can't say. I will say that we have an


erie-built, a C-liner and a DL-109. Who would have thought this would


have happened.





Pete Reinhold









MTH has also done fairly accurate "O" scale plastic shells for the "C" liner (I think they did the B-C version) and the DL 109 - all an interested MFG would have to do would be to pay a license, hit a few buttons on the computer, (reduce 1/48 to 1/87 and build the chassis.


MTH has already done this on many designs reducing 1/4" scale dimensions to 3/16" to make "0-27" size versions.


Dick Ross
















--part1_199.14d55e9c.2b6b079d_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:59:24 -0800 (PST)

From: Ronald Di Orio 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum



--0-1485219017-1043967564=:32373

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii





I agree 100%.  The big difference is that there is heavy traffic through Scranton on 81 and the Turnpike extension, so that Steamtown can attract the casual visitor--one need only take the right exit.  And while I have neglected to stop at Steamtown on any of a number of my trips back to New England, it is at least on the way and one of these days I will stop when I have the time.  I had visited Steamtown when it was at Bellow's Falls and I lived in New Hampshire, but that necessitated making a special trip, and it wasn't too far to drive.  And even at that, Bellow's Falls was on an interstate!!  Ron 

 "Cadwell, Marvin L"  wrote:I think the same could be said of Scranton.  Except for Steam Town, why would anyone want to visit?  -----Original Message-----

From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com]

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:22 PM

To: Jerry Britton; PRR Talk

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum





Unfortunately, while I agree that any official Pennsylvania State Railroad museum should have been located in Altoona, those that point out that Altoona is not in a very good geographic location to attract casual visitors are correct.  For all intents and purposes, there is no reason to visit Altoona unless one wants to visit Altoona, and other than friends and family and a minor league baseball team, about the only reason for any visit to Altoona is its historical connection with the PRR.  Moreover, the city is, as has been pointed out, bypassed by the modern interstate system.  I do think that excursion trains are a possibility, running from Pittsburgh, but even these would require considerable promotion and I have my doubts that enough patronage could be generated to support more than one or two trains per year, perhaps a summer train and a foilage special in the fall.  A couple of years ago, one could take a train from Pitt! sburgh to L Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign







---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-1485219017-1043967564=:32373

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii




I agree 100%.  The big difference is that there is heavy traffic through Scranton on 81 and the Turnpike extension, so that Steamtown can attract the casual visitor--one need only take the right exit.  And while I have neglected to stop at Steamtown on any of a number of my trips back to New England, it is at least on the way and one of these days I will stop when I have the time.  I had visited Steamtown when it was at Bellow's Falls and I lived in New Hampshire, but that necessitated making a special trip, and it wasn't too far to drive.  And even at that, Bellow's Falls was on an interstate!!  Ron 


 "Cadwell, Marvin L" <cadwelml@bp.com> wrote:







I think the same could be said of Scranton.  Except for Steam Town, why would anyone want to visit?  






-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Di Orio [mailto:prr2249@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:22 PM
To: Jerry Britton; PRR Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum




Unfortunately, while I agree that any official Pennsylvania State Railroad museum should have been located in Altoona, those that point out that Altoona is not in a very good geographic location to attract casual visitors are correct.  For all intents and purposes, there is no reason to visit Altoona unless one wants to visit Altoona, and other than friends and family and a minor league baseball team, about the only reason for any visit to Altoona is its historical connection with the PRR.  Moreover, the city is, as has been pointed out, bypassed by the modern interstate system.  I do think that excursion trains are a possibility, running from Pittsburgh, but even these would require considerable promotion and I have my doubts that enough patronage could be generated to support more than one or two trains per year, perhaps a summer train and a foilage special in the fall.  A couple of years ago, one could take a train from Pitt! sburgh to

Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

--0-1485219017-1043967564=:32373--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:09:29 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona





--part1_108.1ea3aa63.2b6b0aa9_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 11:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com 

writes:





> Altoona and

> Strasburg vied for the collection some thirty some-odd years ago.  

> Primarily

> for politica reasons, Altoona lost out.  Had they not, things might be

> different today.



More than "political" Strasburg was/is an established tourist destination - 

and they had the Strasburg RR, its shops, equipment, and knowledgeable 

restoration people.

One more problem with Altoona - the "passenger" equipment they had was old, 

still motorized, MP-54's. Without arguing "Open" or "Openable" window 

equipment idea.

NS/FRA regard the MP-54's as "Locomotives" and would require them to be 

demotorized, or pass inspection as "Locomotives." Either way, some of them 

are what 80-90 years old?



Dick









--part1_108.1ea3aa63.2b6b0aa9_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 11:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes:









Altoona and


Strasburg vied for the collection some thirty some-odd years ago.  Primarily


for politica reasons, Altoona lost out.  Had they not, things might be


different today.






More than "political" Strasburg was/is an established tourist destination - and they had the Strasburg RR, its shops, equipment, and knowledgeable restoration people.


One more problem with Altoona - the "passenger" equipment they had was old, still motorized, MP-54's. Without arguing "Open" or "Openable" window equipment idea.


NS/FRA regard the MP-54's as "Locomotives" and would require them to be demotorized, or pass inspection as "Locomotives." Either way, some of them are what 80-90 years old?





Dick













--part1_108.1ea3aa63.2b6b0aa9_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:20:01 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona





--part1_112.1e157a38.2b6b0d21_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 1:50:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:





> Naturally they were looking to the State of Penna for a handout to help 

> finance

> it.  I think that when the State did finally pony up with the money and

> took the PRR loco collection is about the time that the divorce settled

> in between the railroad and the museum.



As I recall, it was a "Non-cash" transaction - the COMMONWEALTH took the 

collection from the PC bankruptcy - Banruptdy judge wanted them scrappd, in 

return for "forgiveness" of taxes they probably have gotten anyhow.



Dick Ross









--part1_112.1e157a38.2b6b0d21_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/30/03 1:50:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:









Naturally they were looking to the State of Penna for a handout to help finance


it.  I think that when the State did finally pony up with the money and


took the PRR loco collection is about the time that the divorce settled


in between the railroad and the museum.






As I recall, it was a "Non-cash" transaction - the COMMONWEALTH took the collection from the PC bankruptcy - Banruptdy judge wanted them scrappd, in return for "forgiveness" of taxes they probably have gotten anyhow.





Dick Ross













--part1_112.1e157a38.2b6b0d21_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:27:57 -0500

From: Dale Dembinski 

Subject: [PRR] Excursions along NS ROW - Horseshoe curve



I think that there has been one track removed from Horseshoe curve, so

that there are three active tracks, instead of the original four. Why

couldn't one extra track be laid for the excursion train? It wouldn't

clog the NS main line.



Also, the Altoona organization (with proposed excursion line) needs to

align itself as a destination from the nearest large city (Pittsburgh).

You should be able to hop a train in Pittsburgh, travel to Altoona, see

the sights, eat at a restaurant (rr-themed, of course) and then ride

back to Pittsburgh late in the day, with a smile on your face and a

lighter wallet...similar excursions from Dennison/Orville OH. to

Pittsburgh charge somewhere around $100 or so per person for the day

trip (I'm doing this from memory, so feel free to correct me). They've

done it for years, once a year, so they must not lose money...



Dale





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Obs

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:36:19 -0000



John and List,

Reference item 1306, "Streamliner Cars - Vol.1 Pullman Standard" by

W.D.Randall published by RPC Publications, Godfrey, Illinois, 1981.



The 7 cars were ordered 1/1946 and delivered between 3/'49 and 4/'49.

Built by Pullman to plan 4134 and as part of lot# 6792.



8421 POS211 Thomas Alexander Scott, retired 1963

8422 POS211 George Brooke Roberts, re# and re-class parlor #7158 in '57

8423 POS211 Frank Thomson, to #7156 in '57

8424 POS211 Alexander Johnston Cassatt, to #7154 in '57

8425 POS211 James McCrea, to #7157 in '57

8426 POS211 Samuel Rea, retired 1968



Hope this helps,

Martin Skrzetuszewski

London, England



----- Original Message -----

From: John Sheets 

To: PRR Talk 

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:51 PM

Subject: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods



> PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations

> Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427

> Did they also have names?

> TIA

> John







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:39:19 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 reefer





--part1_157.1b2123b0.2b6b1fb7_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



"Before this gets out of hand and y'all embarrass yourselves, Walthers has

been very scrupulous about paint schemes."



Bruce, I assume you mean Walthers is scrupulous [sic] about paint schemes on 

accurate PRR models.  In their Budd line of cars they have applied PRR paint 

schemes to cars the Pennsy never owned.  Even cars (like the 

Baggage-Dormitory car) remotely similar to a PRR prototype hasn't been 

released with a correct paint scheme so that a modeler could use the car as a 

stand-in for a more correct model.



Chris Baker



--part1_157.1b2123b0.2b6b1fb7_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



"Before this gets out of hand and y'all embarrass yourselves, Walthers has


been very scrupulous about paint schemes."





Bruce, I assume you mean Walthers is scrupulous [sic] about paint schemes on accurate PRR models.  In their Budd line of cars they have applied PRR paint schemes to cars the Pennsy never owned.  Even cars (like the Baggage-Dormitory car) remotely similar to a PRR prototype hasn't been released with a correct paint scheme so that a modeler could use the car as a stand-in for a more correct model.





Chris Baker



--part1_157.1b2123b0.2b6b1fb7_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: hanel29@att.net

Subject: [PRR] SMITHSONIAN magazine photo

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:45:16 +0000



On page 84 of the February 2003 issue of the SMITHSONIAN magazine is a photo, 

circa 1932, of a group of "Bonus Army" veterans arrayed around the front end 

of a steam locomotive. They supposedly comandeered a train in Cleveland to go 

to Washington, D.C., to support their cause. The locomotive, (headlight number 

4254) looks suspiciously like a PRR locomotive. Can this be ?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:10:31 -0500

From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr 

Subject: RE: [PRR] EMD Builders photos for sale



Bewar purchasing a photo that is reproduced from an inexpensive store bought

printer.  For sure, you will get a non-archive quality photo that will fade

in about 5 years.



To get a digital photo to last an eternity(archival) like traditional photo

format, one must send the file to a photo shop that has an archival printer.

They run into the tens of thousands of dollars.  I paid $45 for two 8 x 10

scans I did that were 50 megabytes each.  You can do the math for other

sizes.



Be careful of scanned images.  You really need to know the quality of the

printer being used.



This doesnt evan touch on the issue of ownership.



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of

TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 3:56 PM

To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; billlane@comcast.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] EMD Builders photos for sale





Bill, Jerry and all,



I was just wondering if Bill owned these originals or if he is selling

copies of the origianals with permission of EMD.



The resason I ask is that it seems to me that there was a problem with this

on a particular website we all enjoy. If these are EMD Builders photos I

would be surprised to know that anyone but EMD has the rights to sell them,

and I would certainly not sell them with someones name on them that might

mislead someone else to believe that the photos are are the property or

taken by someone other than EMD's.



Abuses of privleges like this lead to mega problems for others wishing to

use photos for reference in the future. It's kinda like getting a photo from

the historical society and then distributing them as if they were ones own.



I was just wondering about a couple of minor details...







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PKMac101@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:30:45 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Excursions along NS ROW - Horseshoe curve





--part1_166.1af63fe2.2b6b39d5_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Dale & List.

       I for one am willing to support steam rail excursions by purchasing 

tickets for trips from Altoona to Gallitzin and return,but from an operation 

stand point it could become a nightmare. If you tie up a main line track with 

a steam excursion and you have any kind of trouble you have the block from 

"ALTO" to "MG" or the block from "MG" to "UN-AR" unusable. Now put the 

remaining freight traffic in the picture and one more piece of trouble 

happens you have essentially tied up the mountain in one direction or 

possibly both plus trying to rescue the steam excursion. This is what NS Mgt 

looks at along with all the other problems that could complicate such events. 

My congradulations to the NS Mgt for still supporting the rail excursions 

that are held for Altoona's RailFest events. This is what happened on the Pgh 

M/L some years back with a doubled headed excursion returning to Pgh when it 

broke down on the two track system from "CONPITT " westward. 

   My point seems harsh and blunt but they are some of the factors that the 

fans do not always think of. This is only my opinion.



Pat McKinney



--part1_166.1af63fe2.2b6b39d5_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Dale & List.


       I for one am willing to support steam rail excursions by purchasing tickets for trips from Altoona to Gallitzin and return,but from an operation stand point it could become a nightmare. If you tie up a main line track with a steam excursion and you have any kind of trouble you have the block from "ALTO" to "MG" or the block from "MG" to "UN-AR" unusable. Now put the remaining freight traffic in the picture and one more piece of trouble happens you have essentially tied up the mountain in one direction or possibly both plus trying to rescue the steam excursion. This is what NS Mgt looks at along with all the other problems that could complicate such events. My congradulations to the NS Mgt for still supporting the rail excursions that are held for Altoona's RailFest events. This is what happened on the Pgh M/L some years back with a doubled headed excursion returning to Pgh when it broke down on the two track system from "CONPITT " westward. 


   My point seems harsh and blunt but they are some of the factors that the fans do not always think of. This is only my opinion.





Pat McKinney



--part1_166.1af63fe2.2b6b39d5_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Claus Schlund" 

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:47:35 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona





Hi Stephen,



Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote:



> Am relatively new to the list



Again, others have already said so,

but welcome to the list!



> Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and

> it's artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the

> potential for making Altoona the center for PRR history.

>

> I say this fully realizing

> that the Juniata-built locos will always stand,

> however illogically, at

> Strasburg.  Politics dealt Altoona a serious blow

> when the "official"

> state RR museum was situated in Strasburg.  And Altoona

> must continually

> recover from this unfortunate choice.



I understand the historical and the emotional desire to have

Altoona be the "PRR capitol of the world". Yes, logically it

makes a good deal of sense.



However, I'm compelled to point out that wether it be thru

logic, illogic, or just blind luck, we are indeed supremely

fortunate to have a first-rate institution like the RR Museum of PA.



As much as we might want to have the museum relocated to Altoona,

we should consider ourselves lucky the collection even still

exists today, and lucky beyond compare that the collection is as

well-kept as it is.



So overall, I'd say we really have little reason to lament.



Consider for a moment how completely all traces of other

railroads have disappeared into oblivion. Just one example: while

the New Haven served parts of the country which today host

many railroad museums, NOT A SINGLE NEW HAVEN STEAM ENGINE

EXISTS ANYMORE - ANYWHERE! NOT ONE! As Pennsy devotees we

at least still have one - and sometimes more -

examples of many of the significant steam classes

here with us to inspect, measure, admire, and worship.



  -  Claus





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Wayne S. Betty" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona/Strasburg/Mount Union (long)

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:22:39 -0500



Howdy List:

Just my two cents worth -

I don't think the SRR would be too excited about having a K4s running on

it's rail anytime soon.

With a driving axel load close to 34 tons - yea the 7002 was 30 tons, the

current SRR motive power is all under 20 tons on drivers.

Just imagine the additional track maintenance that occurs with that extra 14

plus tons.

And do you really want to watch it backing up half the time?



Just for grins - an SD80MAC has an axel load of 35 tons.



I was growing up in Strasburg in the '60s - I remember the big engines

coming to town.

I remember the increase in traffic at the east end of town and my parents

telling me to be extra careful crossing the busy Main Street to get to the

school bus stop.  The other thing I remember is the new macadam pavement -

laid down by McMinns in either '65 or '66.

I'm not sure that the SRR could have grown and prospered the way it has

without the RmofPA coming to town.

Just think, we could still have The Willows and Joe Myers Restaurants, the

Guernsey barn would still be hosting special events and the Congress Inn

would be all by itself on the Lincoln Highway East.

Altoona could have Horseshoe Square and a tourist industry that would be

bringing it millions of dollars each year.

Or maybe the PHMC saw the potential draw of the Amish, the SRR and a museum

so close to Phila, New York and Baltimore.



While the Centipede would be a lot of fun - how about something more useful

like a nice Alco C636.





Cos

Wayne S. Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

Small business IT services.



Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified zone





The Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission deliberated and, by a

margin of *one vote*, chose Strasburg as the site for the state museum.

The nature and result of that process was controversial then and has

remained so ever since. In the context of state railroad history,

neither Strasburg nor Lancaster County generally has ever been known as

a railroad center -- one would never think of either in the same

category as, say, Reading, Altoona, Sayre, McKees Rocks, Harrisburg,

Enola, Pitcairn, Conway, DuBois, Greenville, Renovo, Eddystone, or even

Scranton -- i.e., no major yards or shops, no major passenger

facilities, no landmark-status fixtures or facilities, and comparatively

speaking, no major railroad employment base. Think of the final

selection as the equivalent of placing the Pennsylvania Farm Museum in

downtown Erie (except that that was placed in Lancaster County, too,

where it logically fits the heritage, geography, culture, and pattern of

land use).



PHMC wanted to place the museum *next to* an operating steam railroad

but didn't want to get into the cost and technical involvement of

mounting and running a steam program. From PHMC's standpoint, this was

one of the biggest strikes against Altoona -- no steam and no prospect

of steam. One of the strongest arguments for Strasburg was the

double-pronged existence of the Strasburg Rail Road and the

Penn-Dutch/Amish Country tourism base that was situated within easy

driving distance of Philadelphia and the East Coast. This would, they

reasoned, guarantee a built-in flow of paying customers through any

museum that might be placed there, thus reducing the subsidy that the

state would have to fork out.





History happens where it happens, not where we would like it to happen

for external reasons. Would we build a Battle of Gettysburg museum in

York because the latter is on an Interstate and the former is not? With

that said, when I go to the RMPa in Strasburg to do research in the

library or archives, there's absolutely no reason why that experience

would be any more productive or successful if it were in Altoona. At

this remove, there's no point to re-fighting the battle. We can only

imagine what might have happened had PRR offered, and PHMC accepted, the

East Altoona Enginehouse.



Dan Cupper

Harrisburg, Pa.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:34:08 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Excursions along NS ROW - Horseshoe curve



Pat & List.......



        To allow 1361 to operate on the NS main line, why don't they do

what other class 1 railroads do when there is a steam excursion on the

main: run diesels a mile ahead or behind to rescue if need be. 



Dave





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ALGUCKES@aol.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:50:14 EST

Subject: [PRR] Vogt Meat Packing





--part1_41.2a616fa1.2b6b4c76_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Does anyone on the list have any information concerning the Vogt Meat Packing 

Plant which was in Philadelphia (southwest I believe) up to about 1938 or so 

when it was sold to a national firm (perhaps Rath). It did a lot of business 

with the Pennsy.



Al Guckes



--part1_41.2a616fa1.2b6b4c76_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Does anyone on the list have any information concerning the Vogt Meat Packing Plant which was in Philadelphia (southwest I believe) up to about 1938 or so when it was sold to a national firm (perhaps Rath). It did a lot of business with the Pennsy.





Al Guckes



--part1_41.2a616fa1.2b6b4c76_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Phil Paskos" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:15:13 -0500



Unfortunately; Jerry is right on about the future of Altoona. I am also a

member of  RCTHS. Reading Company and Technical Historical Society. Last

year they hired a consultant to help them choose a site for their museum. A

lot of local people want it in Reading, PA which is where it belongs. But

all the trackage in Reading is controlled by N.S. They have earned the Nasty

nickname of Nazi Southern. They will not hear of any talk of passenger

operations (these days anyway). They will not grant "outsiders" permission

to use their trackage, ( the old Insurance regulations excuse). RCTHS has

found several sites along friendly trackage (Reading Northern) which is old

Pennsy trackage by the way. NS is in business to make money which they are

doing by running huge amounts of freight, which they are doing around

Reading, the likes of which hasn't been seen in these parts since the Heyday

of the Reading,RR during WWII.



Phil



> On 1/30/03 9:40 AM, Stephen H. Prosser (sprosser@attbi.com) wrote:

>

> > Am relatively new to the list, so please forgive a neophyte's plea.

>

> Welcome, no plea required!

> >

> > Altoona's RR heritage must survive, and not only must the Museum and

it's

> > artifacts be preserved in Altoona, one must seriously consider the

potential

> > for making Altoona the center for PRR history.

>

> I agree on the former, but not on the latter. It would be great if we

could

> "go back" and make Altoona the center for PRR history, but Strasburg is

> already well established. True, it's the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania,

> but its rolling stock collection is first rate. They'll never give it up,

at

> any price, nor should they. Too bad it didn't go to Altoona. But there

were

> valid reasons. Given today's status of Altoona, probably a good thing they

> didn't go there!

> >

> > I say this fully realizing that the Juniata-built locos will always

stand,

> > however illogically, at Strasburg.  Politics dealt Altoona a serious

blow

> > when the "official" state RR museum was situated in Strasburg.  And

Altoona

> > must continually recover from this unfortunate choice.

>

> I could be wrong, but I don't think Altoona was established then, didn't

> have all the property it has now, etc. Probably wasn't even an option. The

> powers that be in Altoona at the time probably didn't want to fork over

the

> properties to the state for their control of the museum, either.

> >

> > And, thus, I quite agree with Dale that the combination of the Curve,

the

> > Museum and a steaming #1361 would attract a sufficient visitor base upon

> > which to solidify and perhaps grow the preservation effort at Altoona.

>

> NS will never/seldom allow #1361 to run on the main line. That would be

the

> perfect scenario, but it won't happen. However, at Strasburg you could run

> #1361.

> >

> > Admitting to being born and raised in Altoona with 5 generations of PRR

> > cinders in my blood, and also spending many a Friday night on top of the

> > Curve, having jumped the fence and climbing into the cab of #1361,

drinking

> > a few beers and imagining the living pulse of steam . . .

> >

> I appreciate your viewpoint...

> -----------------------------------------------------------







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR messages

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:35:12 -0500



Fred Freitas wrote:

Has anyone thought to ask Bowser if the N-8 or the X-23 are in the process

of working their way into production?



Westerfield for the Class X23 boxcar, and pattern work is still in progress.

Good things come to those who wait.



By the way, THERE ARE NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES unless you're talking

about Class H-2A, which was an N&W class anyway.





Ben Hom





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:11:34 -0500



Yes, they did have names as follows:



8421 Thomas Alexander Scott

8422 George Brooke Roberts

8423 Frank Thomson 

8424 Alexander Johnson Cassatt

8425 James Mc Crea

8426 Samuel Rea

8427 William Wallace Atterbury



This info is on PRR drawing E-447845D



I presume all of these gents were President of the PRR at one time or

another.



I remember personally seeing the then Prime Minister of Isreal Nathan

Ben Gurion arrive at Penn Station New York aboard the 8423 in 1960, so

it was still in service at that time.  The last update of the drawing

was in 1959.



Bill V.



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John

Sheets

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 5:51 PM

To: PRR Talk

Subject: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods





PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations



Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427



Did they also have names?



TIA

John





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:10:34 -0500

From: "Andrew S. Miller" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] SMITHSONIAN magazine photo



The two big pilot-mounted air tanks are visible.  It's an I-1.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



==================================================





hanel29@att.net wrote:



> On page 84 of the February 2003 issue of the SMITHSONIAN magazine is a photo,

> circa 1932, of a group of "Bonus Army" veterans arrayed around the front end

> of a steam locomotive. They supposedly comandeered a train in Cleveland to go

> to Washington, D.C., to support their cause. The locomotive, (headlight number

> 4254) looks suspiciously like a PRR locomotive. Can this be ?

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



--









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: LAMAassoc@aol.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:15:11 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods





In a message dated 1/31/03 7:06:11 AM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:



<< 

8421 Thomas Alexander Scott

8422 George Brooke Roberts

8423 Frank Thomson 

8424 Alexander Johnson Cassatt

8425 James Mc Crea

8426 Samuel Rea

8427 William Wallace Atterbury >>







Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere out 

west, Northern Division, maybe?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:16:17 -0500

From: "James L. McDaniel" 

Subject: [PRR] Re: E33



I saw one decorated for the N&W in a local Virginia hobby shop last

week...looks very nice. The N&W oriented shop owner seemed pleased with

it. So, Bachman can do a good model and certainly knows what sells,

i.e., shays and generic steam.



Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva where the Centipedes never ran



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:35:49 -0500



Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!



-----Original Message-----

From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] 

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:15 AM

To: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com; john@mpa-inc.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods







In a message dated 1/31/03 7:06:11 AM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com

writes:



<< 

8421 Thomas Alexander Scott

8422 George Brooke Roberts

8423 Frank Thomson 

8424 Alexander Johnson Cassatt

8425 James Mc Crea

8426 Samuel Rea

8427 William Wallace Atterbury >>







Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere

out 

west, Northern Division, maybe?





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:29:34 -0500

From: "James L. McDaniel" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



For what its worth: at the North Carolina Transportation Museum -- the

old Southern Rwy Spencer Shops -- the excursion rides are about 2 miles

long, often diesel powered and all on the shop grounds.  My sense is

they are successful as an added "draw" to the museum which is

figuratively "in the middle of no where" though adjacent to the SRR-NS

Washington  to Atlanta mainline.  While a short ride, it is a train ride

and does introduce rail travel to folks like my then 11 year old son who

had seen only the rare Eastern Shore railroad freight train . . .



Jim McDaniel, awaiting passenger service on Delmarva, where the 1361

would be right at home with 50+ flat straight miles on which to stretch

her legs!



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:40:45 -0500

From: Al Buchan 

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods



Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on the

Allegheny Division. ??????????



=================



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

Volkmer



Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!



-----Original Message-----

From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] 



Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere

out 

west, Northern Division, maybe?







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:00:31 -0500



Naaa.  They moved it in about 1955 to somewheres in Central Pa.



-----Original Message-----

From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] 

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:41 AM

To: 'Bill Volkmer'; LAMAassoc@aol.com; john@mpa-inc.com;

PRR-talk@dsop.com

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods





Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on the

Allegheny Division. ??????????



=================



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

Volkmer



Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!



-----Original Message-----

From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] 



Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere

out 

west, Northern Division, maybe?







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:58:52 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona

From: "Stephen H. Prosser" 



on 1/30/03 9:47 PM, Claus Schlund at schlund@cwnet.com wrote:







Dear Claus and Listers,



Thank you for your kind welcome and email.



> we are indeed supremely

> fortunate to have a first-rate institution like the RR Museum of PA.



I must agree.  It's a beautiful presentation.  As I mentioned to the list, I

am thankful for it.



>I'd say we really have little reason to lament.



I agree in general.  My only lamentation is that the locos and RS that were

built in Altoona and Juniata should reside there.  There is so much

developmental potential in Altoona.  But, it's not going to be that way and

I accept that.



Best to all,



Steve







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:00:52 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



>For what its worth: at the North Carolina Transportation Museum -- the

>old Southern Rwy Spencer Shops -- the excursion rides are about 2 miles

>long, often diesel powered and all on the shop grounds.  My sense is

>they are successful as an added "draw" to the museum which is

>figuratively "in the middle of no where" though adjacent to the SRR-NS

>Washington  to Atlanta mainline.



Yeah, but the museum is about 5 miles off of I-85 and less than an hour

from both Charlotte and Greensboro...



When we drive Nawth from Alabamy, we can choose I-85 and take a rest break

at Spencer, or I-81 and stop at the Virginia Museum of transportation in

Roanoke...ah, choices!!



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

                           __

                          /  \

  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |

 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|

 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:09:19 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Altoona Connections

From: "Stephen H. Prosser" 



on 1/30/03 11:25 PM, PRR-Talk at PRR-Talk@dsop.com wrote:



> Moreover, the city is, as has been pointed out, bypassed by the modern

> interstate system.



Just one caveat to Ron's comment.  As I mentioned in an earlier email,

Interstate I-99 which moves north to south connecting the PA turnpike near

Bedford/Breezewood will soon (?) connect it's last link from Bald Eagle

(north of Altoona) to Bellefonte/Milesburg area.  With this interstate link

is completed, access to downtown Altoona from either I-80 or PA Turnpike

will be under one hour.  Interestingly, there is excursion-available track

within eyeshot of I-99 from Milesburg to Bald Eagle and into Tyrone.



I think the city hopes that this final connection will not only improve

tourism but also make better use of Altoona's talented workforce.  This may

help the Altoona museum's efforts to stay alive and hopefully prosper.



Best to all,





Steve





--

Stephen H. Prosser, Ph.D., J.D.

27 Fairview Street

Holliston. MA  01746

(508) 429-8935

sprosser@attbi.com

--





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ndbprr@att.net

Subject: [PRR] 1361

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:11:01 +0000



How about relaying the tarck on Muleshoe adn using that for an excursion 

location?  That shouldn't cost more than $5 or 6 million.  Norm Bell



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:16:02 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 9:00 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:



> 

> Yeah, but the museum is about 5 miles off of I-85 and less than an hour

> from both Charlotte and Greensboro...

> 

> When we drive Nawth from Alabamy, we can choose I-85 and take a rest break

> at Spencer, or I-81 and stop at the Virginia Museum of transportation in

> Roanoke...ah, choices!!

> 

The new I-99 through Altoona will/should make Altoona more accessible. A lot

of folks probably travel through and never even know about the HC or the

museum. I think on I-99, in both directions, there should be huge billboards

for the museum/HC. I realize this has cost, but you are reaching people who

are already in the area vs. trying to market to people where...?



Don't know if the state would go along with it, but what if an actual loco

where placed perpendicular inside the median at the museum's exit? Now THAT

would get attention! (Yes, and vandalism!)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:28:40 -0600

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

From: John Sheets 



Samuel Rea shops were in Hollidaysburg, PA, western part of the state



John



> From: Al Buchan 

> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:40:45 -0500

> To: 'Bill Volkmer' , LAMAassoc@aol.com,

> john@mpa-inc.com, PRR-talk@dsop.com

> Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

> 

> Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on the

> Allegheny Division. ??????????

> 

> =================

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

> Volkmer

> 

> Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com]

> 

> Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere

> out 

> west, Northern Division, maybe?

> 

> 





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:41:21 -0500



I rather suspect that Strasburg also draws a huge number of tour buses

which are "Day trippers" from New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore,

Washington, and possibly even Atlantic City.

Doing that to Altoona would be a bit of a stretch.



WDV



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry

Britton

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:16 AM

To: Bruce Smith; PRR-Talk LIST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum





On 1/31/03 9:00 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:



> 

> Yeah, but the museum is about 5 miles off of I-85 and less than an 

> hour from both Charlotte and Greensboro...

> 

> When we drive Nawth from Alabamy, we can choose I-85 and take a rest 

> break at Spencer, or I-81 and stop at the Virginia Museum of 

> transportation in Roanoke...ah, choices!!

> 

The new I-99 through Altoona will/should make Altoona more accessible. A

lot of folks probably travel through and never even know about the HC or

the museum. I think on I-99, in both directions, there should be huge

billboards for the museum/HC. I realize this has cost, but you are

reaching people who are already in the area vs. trying to market to

people where...?



Don't know if the state would go along with it, but what if an actual

loco where placed perpendicular inside the median at the museum's exit?

Now THAT would get attention! (Yes, and vandalism!)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone

Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:33:28 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 9:41 AM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote:



> I rather suspect that Strasburg also draws a huge number of tour buses

> which are "Day trippers" from New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore,

> Washington, and possibly even Atlantic City.

> Doing that to Altoona would be a bit of a stretch.

> 

Marketing ideas:



1) Push to become a destination for boy scout/cub scout trips. Market to NY,

MD, WV as well.



2) As the PRRT&HS sometimes offers "ladies tours", find out what conventions

for women are in Altoona, Johnstown, State College and offer "mens tours" to

compliment them.



3) Are there any sites of interest to women in Altoona that the museum can

regularly co-market with, so "the other half" has something to do?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:36:03 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Shops

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 9:28 AM, John Sheets (john@mpa-inc.com) wrote:



> Samuel Rea shops were in Hollidaysburg, PA, western part of the state



At first I thought this thread was a joke...is it? Sam Rea shops ARE in

Hollidaysburg, just southeast of Altoona. NS either did close them or is

going to, but a few years back they were open at RailFest.



I've seen plant tours on Pennsylvania's PCN cable channel...showing hoppers

being assembled. Kinda like a big Bowser kit!

> 

> John

> 

>> From: Al Buchan 

>> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:40:45 -0500

>> To: 'Bill Volkmer' , LAMAassoc@aol.com,

>> john@mpa-inc.com, PRR-talk@dsop.com

>> Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

>> 

>> Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on the

>> Allegheny Division. ??????????

>> 

>> =================

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

>> Volkmer

>> 

>> Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com]

>> 

>> Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere

>> out 

>> west, Northern Division, maybe?

>> 

>> 



-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:39:44 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



I said:

>> Yeah, but the museum is about 5 miles off of I-85 and less than an hour

>> from both Charlotte and Greensboro...

>>

>> When we drive Nawth from Alabamy, we can choose I-85 and take a rest break

>> at Spencer, or I-81 and stop at the Virginia Museum of transportation in

>> Roanoke...ah, choices!!



Jerry replied:

>The new I-99 through Altoona will/should make Altoona more accessible. A lot

>of folks probably travel through and never even know about the HC or the

>museum. I think on I-99, in both directions, there should be huge billboards

>for the museum/HC. I realize this has cost, but you are reaching people who

>are already in the area vs. trying to market to people where...?

>

>Don't know if the state would go along with it, but what if an actual loco

>where placed perpendicular inside the median at the museum's exit? Now THAT

>would get attention! (Yes, and vandalism!)



Jerry et al,



Both of those museums have official State DOT signs at their exits.  The NC

museum has large color posters in the NC Welcome centers on I-85.  The

Virginia museum has a trail of signs to guide you to the actual parking

lot...one at each turn, to make sure you don't get lost.  All FREE to the

museums.  I cannot imagine why PennDOT whould not do the same for Altoona.



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

                           __

                          /  \

  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |

 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|

 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:50:15 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 9:39 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:



> Both of those museums have official State DOT signs at their exits.  The NC

> museum has large color posters in the NC Welcome centers on I-85.  The

> Virginia museum has a trail of signs to guide you to the actual parking

> lot...one at each turn, to make sure you don't get lost.  All FREE to the

> museums.  I cannot imagine why PennDOT whould not do the same for Altoona.

> 

Until 1995, I worked at Elizabethtown College, Elizabethtown, PA. As

director of publications, I worked out of the College Relations (public

relations) office. We had to PAY to have PennDOT put our "designator" up

along the highway. I don't recall the amount, but I remember that the first

winter following a truck plowed through it during a storm. PennDOT took care

of the replacement, albeit slowly.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Phil Paskos" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:48:05 -0500



Museums today Must attract Mom and the kids. The Rail fans are not enough to

support any substantial museum. If you don't believe this go to Strasburg

when Thomas the tank engine is there. They've limited ticket sales to 6000 a

day( I think that's the number) because they can't handle the crowds.



Phil





> I rather suspect that Strasburg also draws a huge number of tour buses

> which are "Day trippers" from New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore,

> Washington, and possibly even Atlantic City.

> Doing that to Altoona would be a bit of a stretch.

>

> WDV

>







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Chany, Christopher" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:04:28 -0500





Listers,



With the Sam Rea shops in Hollidaysburg closing or closed could the K-4 run

down to Wye, turn there and return without clogging the NS mainline?  Is

there anything else down that branch that NS needs to get to?  What would

the mileage be?





Chris Chany



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:14:38 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 10:04 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote:



> With the Sam Rea shops in Hollidaysburg closing or closed could the K-4 run

> down to Wye, turn there and return without clogging the NS mainline?  Is

> there anything else down that branch that NS needs to get to?  What would

> the mileage be?

> 

VERY interesting thought!



I was questioning whether or not the track is still intact, but I guess it

would have to be to get cars to/from the shops.



It also causes me to question whether, in light of NS closing the shops, I

wonder if they would consider appeasing Altoona somewhat by donating the

line through the shops and also a portion of the land there.



Why the land? It would give the museum a place to store eyesore equipment

until it is restored. It would give the museum a place to store newly

donated equipment from the Hollidaysburg shops (that they'll want to get rid

of). It'll give them a place to have an off-site restoration shop.



Good thought, Chris.



Is anyone from the Altoona museum board still on the list? I know there was

a few months ago. Take these ideas and run with them!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Volkmer" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:35:23 -0500



As I remember it, the shop was located somewhat east of the Wye Tower on

the H&P Branch.  The north south line continued south and connected with

the Everett RR  and I thought there were still some active industries

located south of Holidaysburg.  It is hard to keep track of where there

is still active track in this day and age.



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry

Britton

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:15 AM

To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk LIST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum





On 1/31/03 10:04 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote:



> With the Sam Rea shops in Hollidaysburg closing or closed could the 

> K-4 run down to Wye, turn there and return without clogging the NS 

> mainline?  Is there anything else down that branch that NS needs to 

> get to?  What would the mileage be?

> 

VERY interesting thought!



I was questioning whether or not the track is still intact, but I guess

it would have to be to get cars to/from the shops.



It also causes me to question whether, in light of NS closing the shops,

I wonder if they would consider appeasing Altoona somewhat by donating

the line through the shops and also a portion of the land there.



Why the land? It would give the museum a place to store eyesore

equipment until it is restored. It would give the museum a place to

store newly donated equipment from the Hollidaysburg shops (that they'll

want to get rid of). It'll give them a place to have an off-site

restoration shop.



Good thought, Chris.



Is anyone from the Altoona museum board still on the list? I know there

was a few months ago. Take these ideas and run with them!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone

Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:28:01 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes

From: Jerry Britton 



When did the PRR start painting the Keystone on cabin cars? If there is a

need to be specific, classes N5 and N5c.



Looks like it was earlier than was the case for freight cars (1954).



In posts a long ways ago, it was mentioned that some of Bowser's model paint

schemes were fantasy. Which of their PRR schemes weren't right?



If the response is too lengthy, keep in mind that I am interested in what

would have been in service in 1954.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PKMac101@aol.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:54:20 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361





--part1_c.8b1d4d7.2b6c043c_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Norm. 

          I think some of that R/W may have been given to or purchased by the 

national park service in connection with the Old Portage Railroad and the #6 

thru #10 inclined planes back during CR. Plus the fact that the bridge is 

gone where is crossed over old route US 220,so there is no connection to the 

Everett RR at the old Wye tower,the bridge at Foot of Ten would need rebuilt 

and I feel others have reclaimed the R/W from their ajoining property. 

  But yes, that would have been a great line had it been kept,along with some 

good hard working grades from "WYE" to M?L at "SF" almost matching the East 

slope.



Pat McKinney



--part1_c.8b1d4d7.2b6c043c_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Norm. 


          I think some of that R/W may have been given to or purchased by the national park service in connection with the Old Portage Railroad and the #6 thru #10 inclined planes back during CR. Plus the fact that the bridge is gone where is crossed over old route US 220,so there is no connection to the Everett RR at the old Wye tower,the bridge at Foot of Ten would need rebuilt and I feel others have reclaimed the R/W from their ajoining property. 


  But yes, that would have been a great line had it been kept,along with some good hard working grades from "WYE" to M?L at "SF" almost matching the East slope.





Pat McKinney



--part1_c.8b1d4d7.2b6c043c_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:07:52 -0500

From: Tom Hayden 

Subject: [PRR] RE: Bowser I1 question



George,



I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers 

with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more 

realistic. I am guessing that it would handle 22" radius with just one 

blind driver. I know my old AHM brass J1 2-10-4 with all flanged drivers 

will handle 28" and based on measurements and calculations, I think it 

would handle 22" with the #3 blind.



But I think it is also important to understand that even without replacing 

the drivers on your Bowser I1, there will NOT be a problem with tractive 

force, even if only 2 driver sets are making rail contact.  Even with all 

drivers flanged, and even with all drivers even on the rails, this 

all-wheel contact is only maintained on perfectly flat track. Since the 

Bowser is not sprung, the odds are that at any given time or point on the 

track, most likely only 4 wheels are actually providing traction. And that 

traction has always been sufficient from the experience I have experienced 

and heard .



Tom Hayden





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Roc83@aol.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:10:03 EST

Subject: [PRR] (no subject)





--part1_14d.1b128b0f.2b6c07eb_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Fellow listers,

     

       What type of horn did the Pennsy use on the GP30 and who makes them in 

HO scale?  Additionally, did the PC continue to use this same type of horn?  

Thanks!



Ralph Clark

Hertford, NC



--part1_14d.1b128b0f.2b6c07eb_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Fellow listers,


     


       What type of horn did the Pennsy use on the GP30 and who makes them in HO scale?  Additionally, did the PC continue to use this same type of horn?  Thanks!





Ralph Clark


Hertford, NC



--part1_14d.1b128b0f.2b6c07eb_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:15:12 -0500 (EST)

From: Derrick J Brashear 

Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361



On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 PKMac101@aol.com wrote:



> Norm. 

>           I think some of that R/W may have been given to or purchased by the 

> national park service in connection with the Old Portage Railroad and the #6 

> thru #10 inclined planes back during CR. Plus the fact that the bridge is 

> gone where is crossed over old route US 220,so there is no connection to the 

> Everett RR at the old Wye tower,the bridge at Foot of Ten would need rebuilt 

> and I feel others have reclaimed the R/W from their ajoining property. 



Perhaps between wye and old route 220; I've driven the right of way

between muleshoe curve and old route 220 not that hugely long ago.



Though I guess that's precisely the section where it might have happened.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PKMac101@aol.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:16:41 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum





--part1_172.15d8c9de.2b6c0979_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Chris.

       The line is intact and the K4 did make some runs out there in 1987. 

There are some customers on the line but don't know to what extent how much 

business there is and cars are delivered to the intercahnge track for 

delivery by the Everett RR on their lines. From what I understand the line is 

going to be sold and I think that the Everett RR will be the likely buyer 

since they have the remaining track of the old Morrison Cove,Bedford and 

Martinsburg Branches. The Hollidaysburg Car Shops( ex PRR Samuel Rea Car 

Shops) have been advertised for sale as a whole or to be split and sold in  

seperate sections within the structure. Rail service will continue on the 

line as Millenium Car( ex Berwind White Car Repair)is still a active 

customer.



Pat McKinney



--part1_172.15d8c9de.2b6c0979_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Chris.


       The line is intact and the K4 did make some runs out there in 1987. There are some customers on the line but don't know to what extent how much business there is and cars are delivered to the intercahnge track for delivery by the Everett RR on their lines. From what I understand the line is going to be sold and I think that the Everett RR will be the likely buyer since they have the remaining track of the old Morrison Cove,Bedford and Martinsburg Branches. The Hollidaysburg Car Shops( ex PRR Samuel Rea Car Shops) have been advertised for sale as a whole or to be split and sold in  seperate sections within the structure. Rail service will continue on the line as Millenium Car( ex Berwind White Car Repair)is still a active customer.





Pat McKinney



--part1_172.15d8c9de.2b6c0979_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "PennsyNut" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Worked for the PRR?

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:49:53 -0600



Hey Guys!



That invitation is also extended from the "Penn Texas" chapter.  After all,

if and when y'all travel, IF you get down this way, we might be able to have

a "special" meeting just to meet you.  We love to hear about the PRR!

 (Like - who doesn't?)



This invitation is also extended to current employees.



Morgan Bilbo

Ferroequinologist

PRRTHS #1204 and SPF

President of pending PRRTHS Penn Texas chapter

Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association in Fort Worth TX

Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders in Chicago IL



----- Original Message -----

From: 

To: "PRR-Talk" ; "Jerry Britton" 

Sent: Thursday, 30 January, 2003 02:58 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Worked for the PRR?





> I would also like to extend an invitation to Ex-PRR employees to be added

to

> the Chicago Chapter mailing list and to come to our meeting when in the

area.

> We would love to have you attend and participate in our meetings.  Norm

Bell

> > We recently see posts from numerous former-PRR employees who write

something

> > to the effect of "when I was assigned at..." and then they relate their

PRR

> > employment to the question at hand.

> >

> > If the former-PRR employees on the list would oblige, I would very much

> > enjoy each of you posting your PRR-related bio as a new post. It might

> > incite some new chatter, shed light on old subjects, or key us in on who

to

> > contact about a particular subject off-list.

> >

> > I would recommend you...

> >

> > 1) Create a new message with the subject "PRR Bio - " followed by your

name.

> >

> > 2) Create a paragraph by paragraph listing of the assignments you held

with

> > the PRR, including approximate dates.

> >

> > This would be equally great to have in the list archive. Please give it

some

> > consideration. Thanks!

> > -----------------------------------------------------------

> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

> >     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

>



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:17:25 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Worked for the PRR?

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 1:49 PM, PennsyNut (PennsyNut@hotmail.com) wrote:



> That invitation is also extended from the "Penn Texas" chapter.  After all,

> if and when y'all travel, IF you get down this way, we might be able to have

> a "special" meeting just to meet you.  We love to hear about the PRR!

> (Like - who doesn't?)

> 

Don't forget to "interchange" with the MP society down there. After all, the

"Penn Texas" carried three cars in MP Eagle livery!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: ndbprr@att.net

Subject: [PRR] 1361 excursions

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:29:52 +0000



I know NS isn't going to allow it since they won't even run their own engines 

but maybe UP has the answer in the way they run their steam program.  If the 

1361 could roam to a degree and run excursions from say Philadelphia to New 

York and return or Chicago to Ft Wayne or Cincinnati to Columbus or St' Louis 

to Indianapolis and return it may generate more revenue then just being captive 

in one spot.  Wouldn't all those communities that regularly saw K4's be 

thrilled at the sight of it once more?  Think of the goodwill it would generate 

for the PRR and maybe the society with all those newspapers writing about the 

glory years and what the PRR meant to the economy.  It could also just run for 

the summer months and have the winter to make repairs and maybe local 

excursions in Altoona area.  That scenario could work IF the running rights 

could somehow miraculously be obtained.  norm Bell



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bennett Levin" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:46:21 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_0518_01C2C91E.5FC827F0

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



At last year's Railfest the last Saturday excursion ran to Pittsburgh =

and returned to Altoona on Sunday Morning. With the exception of the =

"high-roller's" dinner in the 1157, the ticket sales were abysmal. =

Railfans, in general, take pictures; what you need are tourists who want =

to do something special. With all the problems at the museum last fall =

one can see how things were NOT promoted. But there will be no =

acceptance of excuses this year!



The truth is that the "select committee" who were running things in the =

interim, (not including Scott and Andy) voted against a FREE offer from =

a Hollywood PR guy to promote Railfest. They used local talent and =

failed miserably.



Also consider that the Altoona business community has never gone out of =

their way to promote Raifest and never have made an effort to make =

railfans feel welcome. The entire community needs lessons in hospitality =

if the museum is going to get back on its feet!!!!!





Bennett

  ----- Original Message -----=20

  From: Ronald Di Orio=20

  To: Jerry Britton ; PRR Talk=20

  Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:51 PM

  Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum





  OK, here's what was cut off from my previous communications.  A couple =

of years ago, one could take a day train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe for =

dinner at a restaurant that had been opened in the newly restored =

Latrobe station.  Due to weekend work at that time, I never had the =

opportunity to take the trip.  Does anyone know if this is still =

running?  If a dinner excursion day trip failed financially, and this is =

something that had appeal to the general public, I would not have much =

hope for excursions to Altoona, more lengthy in time and drawing from a =

much more limited number of possible buyers.  Ron=20



    Time will tell if the Altoona museum can be "financially saved". =

Altoona

    remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you can stand =

trackside and

    "smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and Tuscan power drifting =

by, with

    Tuscan varnish to boot.



    The museum's interpretive collection, in the Master Mechanic's =

building, is

    first rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock collection, =

outside, is

    in extremely poor shape.



    I haven't been there in 18 months. The 1/4 round house was supposed =

to be

    under construction. Is it? As soon as some internal storage space =

comes

    available, perhaps there's hope.



    To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions. I don't =

believe NS

    will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope, except perhaps =

for

    RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw tourists, must an Altoona

    excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?



    Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now



------=_NextPart_000_0518_01C2C91E.5FC827F0

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


















At last year's Railfest the last =

Saturday excursion=20

ran to Pittsburgh and returned to Altoona on Sunday Morning. With the =

exception=20

of the "high-roller's" dinner in the 1157, the ticket sales were =

abysmal.=20

Railfans, in general, take pictures; what you need are tourists who =

want to=20

do something special. With all the problems at the museum last fall one =

can see=20

how things were NOT promoted. But there will be no acceptance of excuses =

this=20

year!



 



The truth is that the "select =

committee" who were=20

running things in the interim, (not including Scott and Andy) voted =

against a=20

FREE offer from a Hollywood PR guy to promote Railfest. They used local =

talent=20

and failed miserably.



 



Also consider that the Altoona business =

community=20

has never gone out of their way to promote Raifest and never have made =

an effort=20

to make railfans feel welcome. The entire community needs lessons in =

hospitality=20

if the museum is going to get back on its feet!!!!!



 



 



Bennett





  
----- Original Message ----- 


  From:=20

  Ronald =

Di Orio=20

  

  
To: Jerry Britton ; PRR =

Talk 


  
Sent: Thursday, January 30, =

2003 2:51=20

  PM


  
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona =

Museum


  



  
OK, here's what was cut off from my previous communications.  =

A couple=20

  of years ago, one could take a day train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe =

for dinner=20

  at a restaurant that had been opened in the newly restored Latrobe=20

  station.  Due to weekend work at that time, I never had the =

opportunity=20

  to take the trip.  Does anyone know if this is still =

running?  If a=20

  dinner excursion day trip failed financially, and this is something =

that had=20

  appeal to the general public, I would not have much hope for =

excursions to=20

  Altoona, more lengthy in time and drawing from a much more limited =

number of=20

  possible buyers.  Ron=20

  Time=20

    will tell if the Altoona museum can be "financially saved".=20

    Altoona
remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you can =

stand=20

    trackside and
"smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and Tuscan =

power=20

    drifting by, with
Tuscan varnish to boot.

The museum's=20

    interpretive collection, in the Master Mechanic's building, =

is
first=20

    rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock collection, outside, =

is
in=20

    extremely poor shape.

I haven't been there in 18 months. The =

1/4=20

    round house was supposed to be
under construction. Is it? As soon =

as some=20

    internal storage space comes
available, perhaps there's =

hope.

To=20

    fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions. I don't believe=20

    NS
will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope, except =

perhaps=20

    for
RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw tourists, must an=20

    Altoona
excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?

Yaho=

o!=20

    Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign=

 up=20

    now




------=_NextPart_000_0518_01C2C91E.5FC827F0--







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "PennsyNut" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:52:38 -0600



Hi All.



It was a few years ago, we attended a PRRTHS meeting in Altoona.  There were

"things" for the females.  My wife enjoyed the tour of historical homes, how

the railroad workers were housed, etc.  And some old mansions.  She says was

"a very nice tour".



Sorry I don't remember other details.



Morgan Bilbo

Ferroequinologist

PRRTHS #1204 and SPF

President of pending PRRTHS Penn Texas chapter

Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association in Fort Worth TX

Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders in Chicago IL



> 2) As the PRRT&HS sometimes offers "ladies tours", find out what

conventions for women are in Altoona, Johnstown, State College and offer

"mens tours" to

compliment them.>

> 3) Are there any sites of interest to women in Altoona that the museum can

regularly co-market with, so "the other half" has something to do?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:01:19 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: Jerry Britton 



On 1/31/03 2:46 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote:



> At last year's Railfest the last Saturday excursion ran to Pittsburgh and

> returned to Altoona on Sunday Morning. With the exception of the

> "high-roller's" dinner in the 1157, the ticket sales were abysmal. Railfans,

> in general, take pictures; what you need are tourists who want to do something

> special. With all the problems at the museum last fall one can see how things

> were NOT promoted.



As for promotion, the RailFest mailers went out way too late. As for what

other methods were used, I don't know. But the mailer should have gone out

in July.



As for abysmal ticket sales: Wrong audience! With the train leaving Altoona

after 5 p.m., evening was falling. Railfans do want to take photos, so the

trip had little to offer! So one sees little, then has to fork out $$$ for

the hotel. Granted, the return trip is in daylight.



I think a much better trip would have been to have one less "up and around"

trip on Saturday and do a longer trip -- at perhaps double cost ($20) -- to

Johnstown and back the same day, so the riders get to run both slopes during

daylight.



> But there will be no acceptance of excuses this year!



Are your E8's committed? I heard they weren't going in 2003. But that was

umpteenth-hand and unreliable. What are the dates for RailFest 2003? They

aren't on the (poor) web site.

> 

> The truth is that the "select committee" who were running things in the

> interim, (not including Scott and Andy) voted against a FREE offer from a

> Hollywood PR guy to promote Railfest. They used local talent and failed

> miserably.



Hmmm, bet I know who the offer was from! What happened to him anyway? Don't

think the Broadway Limited ever got past "Episode 2".



I had offered to promote RailFest over Conrail-talk, Reading-talk, PRR-talk,

and Keystone Crossings, but they never sent any materials. Guess they didn't

see it as a viable venue for marketing! (But we did discuss it informally

anyway.)

> 

> Also consider that the Altoona business community has never gone out of their

> way to promote Raifest and never have made an effort to make railfans feel

> welcome. The entire community needs lessons in hospitality if the museum is

> going to get back on its feet!!!!!

> 

Agreed. I'm not sure "what" the city should do, but they should do

something. RailFest is really a "celebration of Altoona". There should be

"Welcome" banners across the streets around Station Mall.



I usually spend a few hours of RailFest behind the Mall watching the

action...tailgating from my van. A good use of the parking lot at the corner

of the museum grounds would be an "outdoor food court". Get the local street

vendors that do ball games to come out and set up!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Burnley, Charles" 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Sam Rea Shops

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:41:22 -0500



BTW, the locals pronounce it "Holl-dees-burg"



-----Original Message-----

From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:36 AM

To: John Sheets; Al Buchan; 'Bill Volkmer'; LAMAassoc@aol.com; PRR-Talk

LIST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Shops





On 1/31/03 9:28 AM, John Sheets (john@mpa-inc.com) wrote:



> Samuel Rea shops were in Hollidaysburg, PA, western part of the state



At first I thought this thread was a joke...is it? Sam Rea shops ARE in

Hollidaysburg, just southeast of Altoona. NS either did close them or is

going to, but a few years back they were open at RailFest.



I've seen plant tours on Pennsylvania's PCN cable channel...showing hoppers

being assembled. Kinda like a big Bowser kit!

> 

> John

> 

>> From: Al Buchan 

>> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:40:45 -0500

>> To: 'Bill Volkmer' , LAMAassoc@aol.com,

>> john@mpa-inc.com, PRR-talk@dsop.com

>> Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

>> 

>> Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on the

>> Allegheny Division. ??????????

>> 

>> =================

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

>> Volkmer

>> 

>> Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com]

>> 

>> Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility, somewhere

>> out 

>> west, Northern Division, maybe?

>> 

>> 



-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

****************************************************************************

This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary,

privileged, confidential  or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or

its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of

the person to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient

of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,

copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments

to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this

e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete

the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Conectiv policy

expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements

and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email

communications.  Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such

communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any

damages or other liability so arising.

****************************************************************************





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Larry Reynolds" 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Shops

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:14:51 -0500



Sam Rea Shops ARE closed!



Larry

----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Britton 

To: John Sheets ; Al Buchan ; 'Bill

Volkmer' ; ; PRR-Talk LIST



Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:36 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Shops





> On 1/31/03 9:28 AM, John Sheets (john@mpa-inc.com) wrote:

>

> > Samuel Rea shops were in Hollidaysburg, PA, western part of the state

>

> At first I thought this thread was a joke...is it? Sam Rea shops ARE in

> Hollidaysburg, just southeast of Altoona. NS either did close them or is

> going to, but a few years back they were open at RailFest.

>

> I've seen plant tours on Pennsylvania's PCN cable channel...showing

hoppers

> being assembled. Kinda like a big Bowser kit!

> >

> > John

> >

> >> From: Al Buchan 

> >> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:40:45 -0500

> >> To: 'Bill Volkmer' , LAMAassoc@aol.com,

> >> john@mpa-inc.com, PRR-talk@dsop.com

> >> Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

> >>

> >> Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on the

> >> Allegheny Division. ??????????

> >>

> >> =================

> >>

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

> >> Volkmer

> >>

> >> Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!

> >>

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com]

> >>

> >> Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility,

somewhere

> >> out

> >> west, Northern Division, maybe?

> >>

> >>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:10:34 -0500

From: Al Buchan 

Subject: RE: [PRR] Sam Rea Shops



Yes Jerry you're correct - the thread was a joke between two former PRR

employes - Bill Volkmer (ME) and myself (MW). Of course to some people

that fact was transparent.



Al



================



-----Original Message-----

From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] 



On 1/31/03 9:28 AM, John Sheets (john@mpa-inc.com) wrote:



> Samuel Rea shops were in Hollidaysburg, PA, western part of the state



At first I thought this thread was a joke...is it? Sam Rea shops ARE in

Hollidaysburg, just southeast of Altoona. NS either did close them or is

going to, but a few years back they were open at RailFest.



I've seen plant tours on Pennsylvania's PCN cable channel...showing

hoppers being assembled. Kinda like a big Bowser kit!

> 

> John

> 

>> From: Al Buchan 

>> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:40:45 -0500

>> To: 'Bill Volkmer' , LAMAassoc@aol.com,

>> john@mpa-inc.com, PRR-talk@dsop.com

>> Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods

>> 

>> Mmmmmmmmmm, I always thought the System Sam Rea Shop was located on

>> the Allegheny Division. ??????????

>> 

>> =================

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill

>> Volkmer

>> 

>> Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right!

>> 

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com]

>> 

>> Didn't the Pennsy have the Samuel Rea Shops, an MofE facility,

>> somewhere out west, Northern Division, maybe?

>> 

>> 



-----------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone

Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com









-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Scott Cessna" 

Subject: [PRR] Railroaders Memorial Museum

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:14:48 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_04AD_01C2C94C.42692640

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Wow,



Nothing about us here for sometime and now non-stop conversation!  Hello =

all - from the Director of Operations in Altoona.  Where do I start?  =

First, we are all painfully aware of why Altoona did not get the state =

museum 30+ years ago when we asked for it and there is simply nothing we =

can do about it.  Would we like to have some of the rolling stock =

currently at RRMPA, of course we would.  Can we do some sort of =

exchanges/loans in the future?  Not until we prove ourselves a sound =

viable operation.  We are, in fact, working very hard to make ourselves =

just that.



As far as marketing Altoona as a tourist destination, we are not as =

isolated as many of you seem to think.  We are a mere 30 minutes off the =

turnpike using I-99 --- one of those interstate highways someone said =

"passed us by" and will soon be linked to I-80 in the north by the same =

I-99 under construction.  We are the home of a Double A baseball team =

(the Altoona Curve) that has set attendance records each year of its =

existence and draws well from all over this part of the state.  The team =

is owned by a group out of Pittsburgh that includes Mario Lemieux and =

Jerome Bettis.



We are the largest shopping destination between Pittsburgh and =

Harrisburg and the hotels here are filled every home football weekend in =

the fall with Penn State fans who are attending games at Beaver Stadium =

only 45 minutes up I-99.  We have a brand new Blair county Convention =

Center here that is bringing many different types of shows, meetings and =

conventions to the area.  We have not only the Museum and the Horseshoe =

Curve but for the heritage traveler are also the home of Gallitzin =

Tunnel Park, Allegheny Portage Railroad, Canal Basin Park in =

Hollidaysburg, Baker Mansion, Fort Roberdeau and are only a stone's =

throw from the EBT.  We have Raystown Lake and Prince Gallitzin Park for =

the boating and fishing enthusiast - shall I go on?



Our roundhouse is under construction and we are the proud owners of a =

100' turntable to be installed as the next phase of the yard =

construction here.  The funding is in place to finish the K4 as well.  =

There will be a press conference in late February to give all of you the =

date for its return to Altoona.  For your calendars, let me tell you =

Railfest 2003 is tentatively set for October 4 and 5.  There will also =

be many great events in 2004 to celebrate the 150th birthday of the =

Horseshoe Curve. Conversations are already underway with OSRAM Sylvania =

to recreate the Life Magazine photo they did for the 100th Anniversary - =

lighting the Curve and taking an aerial photo - fireworks, etc.  Our =

rolling stock is indeed in poor shape but the roundhouse completion will =

certainly help us there. =20



Look for a new website in late February and I want to see everyone at =

the front door when we go back to a 7-day per week operation on March =

29th.  By the way, the Curve will be open after March 29th for FREE =

during non-operating hours - no funicular, no visitor center, but use =

the steps and have a ball!



Thanks



Scott Cessna

Director of Operations

Railroaders Heritage Corporation

814-946-0834  ext 224

Fax 814-946-9457





------=_NextPart_000_04AD_01C2C94C.42692640

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


















Wow,



 



Nothing about us here for sometime and =

now non-stop=20

conversation!  Hello all - from the Director of Operations in=20

Altoona.  Where do I start?  First, we are all painfully aware =

of why=20

Altoona did not get the state museum 30+ years ago when we asked for it =

and=20

there is simply nothing we can do about it.  Would we like to have =

some of=20

the rolling stock currently at RRMPA, of course we would.  Can =

we do=20

some sort of exchanges/loans in the future?  Not until we prove =

ourselves a=20

sound viable operation.  We are, in fact, working very hard to make =



ourselves just that.



 



As far as marketing Altoona as a =

tourist=20

destination, we are not as isolated as many of you seem to think.  =

We are a=20

mere 30 minutes off the turnpike using I-99 --- one of those interstate =

highways=20

someone said "passed us by" and will soon be linked to I-80 in the north =

by the=20

same I-99 under construction.  We are the home of a Double A =

baseball team=20

(the Altoona Curve) that has set attendance records each year of its =

existence=20

and draws well from all over this part of the state.  The team is =

owned by=20

a group out of Pittsburgh that includes Mario Lemieux and Jerome=20

Bettis.



 



We are the largest shopping destination =

between=20

Pittsburgh and Harrisburg and the hotels here are filled every home =

football=20

weekend in the fall with Penn State fans who are attending games at =

Beaver=20

Stadium only 45 minutes up I-99.  We have a brand new Blair county=20

Convention Center here that is bringing many different types of shows, =

meetings=20

and conventions to the area.  We have not only the Museum and the =

Horseshoe=20

Curve but for the heritage traveler are also the home of Gallitzin =

Tunnel Park,=20

Allegheny Portage Railroad, Canal Basin Park in Hollidaysburg, Baker =

Mansion,=20

Fort Roberdeau and are only a stone's throw from the EBT.  We have =

Raystown=20

Lake and Prince Gallitzin Park for the boating and fishing enthusiast - =

shall I=20

go on?



 



Our roundhouse is under construction =

and we are the=20

proud owners of a 100' turntable to be installed as the next phase of =

the yard=20

construction here.  The funding is in place to finish the K4 as =

well. =20

There will be a press conference in late February to give all of you the =

date=20

for its return to Altoona.  For your calendars, let me tell you =

Railfest=20

2003 is tentatively set for October 4 and 5.  There will also be =

many great=20

events in 2004 to celebrate the 150th birthday of the Horseshoe Curve.=20

Conversations are already underway with OSRAM Sylvania to recreate the =

Life=20

Magazine photo they did for the 100th Anniversary - lighting the Curve =

and=20

taking an aerial photo - fireworks, etc.  Our rolling stock is =

indeed in=20

poor shape but the roundhouse completion will certainly help us =

there. =20





 



Look for a new website in late February =

and I want=20

to see everyone at the front door when we go back to a 7-day per week =

operation=20

on March 29th.  By the way, the Curve will be open after March 29th =

for=20

FREE during non-operating hours - no funicular, no visitor center, but =

use the=20

steps and have a ball!



 



Thanks



 



Scott Cessna
Director of=20

Operations
Railroaders Heritage Corporation



814-946-0834  ext 224
Fax=20

814-946-9457




------=_NextPart_000_04AD_01C2C94C.42692640--







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:50:27 -0500

From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr 

Subject: [PRR] Altoona Area Commerce



The Allegheny Mountain Convention and Visitors Bureau and the Blair County

Convention Center need to step up to the plate and provide reasons (Portage

RR Museum, Johnstown flood museum, Altoona RR Mem Museum, etc.)  to attract

large scale convention and event planners to the area.  They need to market

the area for what it is worth.  It has much to offer.  Face it, major

industry in Altoona area is long gone, especially since the PRR is not

there.



Outside of the convention and event industry, what is in the Altoona area

for people to come in by the hundreds to visit museums and fuel the local

economy?  People do not trek by the thousands to "remote" locations for a

few museums alone, unfortunately.  The Chamber of Commerce needs to get

involved.  Who knows, with the new governor and a focus on education,

hopefully Altoona and the surrounding area will benefit from future

programs.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:57:16 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bowser I1 "RealisM'





--part1_16a.1a006be2.2b6c594c_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

thayden@keithley.com writes:





> I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers 

> with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more 

> realistic. 

> 

> In terms of "realism" 



It's been a while since I visited the sole surviving I-1 in Buffalo but, as I 

recall, the 

> last "Real" one (which should be some measure of "realism")

> had three axles worth of "blinded" drivers. 



Center axle had blind tires which must have been 10" wide

> 

> 





--part1_16a.1a006be2.2b6c594c_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes:









I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers 


with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more 


realistic. 





In terms of "realism" 






It's been a while since I visited the sole surviving I-1 in Buffalo but, as I recall, the 



last "Real" one (which should be some measure of "realism")


had three axles worth of "blinded" drivers. 






Center axle had blind tires which must have been 10" wide















--part1_16a.1a006be2.2b6c594c_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Cessvw@cs.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:03:25 EST

Subject: [PRR] More From Altoona





--part1_d.8b6babd.2b6c68cd_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Hello again everyone.  I didn't get the chance to address another issue in my 

earlier post.  I want to make it clear to everyone that NS could not be more 

cooperative than they have been with the museum.  To somehow imply they have 

not been good corporate citizens in their dealings with the museum and 

potential excursion traffic is simply not true.  Our Railfest event could not 

be held without the continued cooperation of NS.  As it regards the operation 

of the K4, we cannot be upset with NS because they are not willing to let us 

tie up a good portion of the freight in the Northeast United States to run an 

excursion around the Horseshoe Curve on a regular basis.  While their are 

particular issues with steam, the situation would not be any different if we 

asked them to allow diesel excursions on a regular basis.  It isn't going to 

happen and they should not be frowned upon for that decision. We will run the 

K4 when it returns and we will hopefully run diesel excursions at some point 

as well, but the museum "colors" will not be seen regularly rounding the 

Curve.  It just isn't possible.  There was also some mention of "insurance 

excuses" for not allowing trips like this.  They are not excuses.  There is a 

real, not perceived, problem in the insurance end of this business.  We are 

down to I believe only 6 companies in the United Sates that will insure an 

excursion operation and only 3 that will insure a class 1 railroad.  This 

poses a huge problem for the continued existence of the tourist train 

industry.  NS and the Railroaders Memorial Museum enjoy a good relationship 

that will only get better as we get over our financial issues and can spend 

the appropriate time building these types of business relationships that are 

going to be the anchor of the museum's future success.  Yes our museum can be 

"saved".  It is already well on its way.  Our goal is more than the 

stabilization of the museum itself.  Our goal is to use the museum as a part 

of a larger wealth creation effort that benefits the entire Central 

Pennsylvania community.  Come visit.



Scott Cessna

Director of Operations

Railroaders Heritage Corporation

Operating the Railroaders Memorial Museum

& the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark



--part1_d.8b6babd.2b6c68cd_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Hello again everyone.  I didn't get the chance to address another issue in my earlier post.  I want to make it clear to everyone that NS could not be more cooperative than they have been with the museum.  To somehow imply they have not been good corporate citizens in their dealings with the museum and potential excursion traffic is simply not true.  Our Railfest event could not be held without the continued cooperation of NS.  As it regards the operation of the K4, we cannot be upset with NS because they are not willing to let us tie up a good portion of the freight in the Northeast United States to run an excursion around the Horseshoe Curve on a regular basis.  While their are particular issues with steam, the situation would not be any different if we asked them to allow diesel excursions on a regular basis.  It isn't going to happen and they should not be frowned upon for that decision. We will run th





Scott Cessna


Director of Operations


Railroaders Heritage Corporation


Operating the Railroaders Memorial Museum


& the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark



--part1_d.8b6babd.2b6c68cd_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes





--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Jerry:



The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin 

car  arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings:



Shadow Keystone

ND, NDA, N6, N6B         drawing date 1-5-56

N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F   drawing stged 12-8-55

N8   drawing 12-15-55



All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK



Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61



Rich Orr



--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Jerry:





The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin car  arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings:





Shadow Keystone


ND, NDA, N6, N6B         drawing date 1-5-56


N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F   drawing stged 12-8-55


N8   drawing 12-15-55





All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK





Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61





Rich Orr



--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary--



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:03:44 -0800

From: smartcommco@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum





--------------FE24BDD1A9118D78DF479561

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



The true tragedy of my "free" offer is that it came with a Fortune 100

sponsor attached that was willing to drop as much as $5 million into the

museum and completely underwrite the cost of restoring the K-4. Their

only requirement was that they have creative control over the way in

which their money and messaging were deployed. As for

TheBroadwayLtd.com, Darin Wilson, the amazing Flash illustrator whose

work was featured on the site died tragically in the World Trade Center

on 9/11. Mr. Britton's attitude is indicative of many of those

associated with the Museum at that time and one of the reasons I chose

not to involve my clients in their affairs. I will say that members of

the new board did try to mend the damage done by their colleagues, but

by that time the train had left the station.



Harry Webber

Smart Communications, Inc.

Los Angeles





Bennett Levin wrote:



> At last year's Railfest the last Saturday excursion ran to Pittsburgh

> and returned to Altoona on Sunday Morning. With the exception of the

> "high-roller's" dinner in the 1157, the ticket sales were abysmal.

> Railfans, in general, take pictures; what you need are tourists who

> want to do something special. With all the problems at the museum last

> fall one can see how things were NOT promoted. But there will be no

> acceptance of excuses this year! The truth is that the "select

> committee" who were running things in the interim, (not including

> Scott and Andy) voted against a FREE offer from a Hollywood PR guy to

> promote Railfest. They used local talent and failed miserably. Also

> consider that the Altoona business community has never gone out of

> their way to promote Raifest and never have made an effort to make

> railfans feel welcome. The entire community needs lessons in

> hospitality if the museum is going to get back on its

> feet!!!!!  Bennett

>

>      ----- Original Message -----

>      From: Ronald Di Orio

>      To: Jerry Britton ; PRR Talk

>      Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:51 PM

>      Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

>       OK, here's what was cut off from my previous

>      communications.  A couple of years ago, one could take a day

>      train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe for dinner at a restaurant

>      that had been opened in the newly restored Latrobe station.

>      Due to weekend work at that time, I never had the

>      opportunity to take the trip.  Does anyone know if this is

>      still running?  If a dinner excursion day trip failed

>      financially, and this is something that had appeal to the

>      general public, I would not have much hope for excursions to

>      Altoona, more lengthy in time and drawing from a much more

>      limited number of possible buyers.  Ron

>

>           Time will tell if the Altoona museum can be

>           "financially saved". Altoona

>           remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you

>           can stand trackside and

>           "smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and

>           Tuscan power drifting by, with

>           Tuscan varnish to boot.

>

>           The museum's interpretive collection, in the

>           Master Mechanic's building, is

>           first rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock

>           collection, outside, is

>           in extremely poor shape.

>

>           I haven't been there in 18 months. The 1/4 round

>           house was supposed to be

>           under construction. Is it? As soon as some

>           internal storage space comes

>           available, perhaps there's hope.

>

>           To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs

>           excursions. I don't believe NS

>           will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope,

>           except perhaps for

>           RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw

>           tourists, must an Altoona

>           excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?

>

>           Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up

>           now

>



--------------FE24BDD1A9118D78DF479561

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit









The true tragedy of my "free" offer is that it came with a Fortune 100

sponsor attached that was willing to drop as much as $5 million into the

museum and completely underwrite the cost of restoring the K-4. Their only

requirement was that they have creative control over the way in which their

money and messaging were deployed. As for TheBroadwayLtd.com, Darin Wilson,

the amazing Flash illustrator whose work was featured on the site died

tragically in the World Trade Center on 9/11. Mr. Britton's attitude is

indicative of many of those associated with the Museum at that time and

one of the reasons I chose not to involve my clients in their affairs.

I will say that members of the new board did try to mend the damage done

by their colleagues, but by that time the train had left the station.


Harry Webber


Smart Communications, Inc.


Los Angeles


 


Bennett Levin wrote:




At

last year's Railfest the last Saturday excursion ran to Pittsburgh and

returned to Altoona on Sunday Morning. With the exception of the "high-roller's"

dinner in the 1157, the ticket sales were abysmal. Railfans, in general,

take pictures; what you need are tourists who want to do something special.

With all the problems at the museum last fall one can see how things were

NOT promoted. But there will be no acceptance of excuses this year! The

truth is that the "select committee" who were running things in the interim,

(not including Scott and Andy) voted against a FREE offer from a Hollywood

PR guy to promote Railfest. They used local talent and failed miserably. Also

consider that the Altoona business community has never gone out of their

way to promote Raifest and never have made an effort to make railfans feel

welcome. The entire community needs lessons in hospitality if the museum

is going to get back on its feet!!!!!  Bennett





----- Original Message -----













Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:51

PM





Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum


 OK, here's what was cut off from my previous communications. 

A couple of years ago, one could take a day train from Pittsburgh to Latrobe

for dinner at a restaurant that had been opened in the newly restored Latrobe

station.  Due to weekend work at that time, I never had the opportunity

to take the trip.  Does anyone know if this is still running? 

If a dinner excursion day trip failed financially, and this is something

that had appeal to the general public, I would not have much hope for excursions

to Altoona, more lengthy in time and drawing from a much more limited number

of possible buyers.  Ron


Time

will tell if the Altoona museum can be "financially saved". Altoona


remains one of the last vestiges of PRR, where you can stand trackside

and


"smell the soot" and easily imagine DGLE and Tuscan power drifting

by, with


Tuscan varnish to boot.


The museum's interpretive collection, in the Master Mechanic's building,

is


first rate. No doubt about that. The rolling stock collection, outside,

is


in extremely poor shape.


I haven't been there in 18 months. The 1/4 round house was supposed

to be


under construction. Is it? As soon as some internal storage space comes


available, perhaps there's hope.


To fully recover, I do think Altoona needs excursions. I don't believe

NS


will ever allow #1361 to run on the eastern slope, except perhaps for


RailFest. That leaves a question: To draw tourists, must an Altoona


excursion include the Horseshoe Curve?


Yahoo!

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign

up now
















--------------FE24BDD1A9118D78DF479561--





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:16:20 -0500 (EST)

From: Derrick J Brashear 

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 smartcommco@earthlink.net wrote:



> which their money and messaging were deployed. As for

> TheBroadwayLtd.com, Darin Wilson, the amazing Flash illustrator whose

> work was featured on the site died tragically in the World Trade Center

> on 9/11. Mr. Britton's attitude is indicative of many of those

> associated with the Museum at that time and one of the reasons I chose



Mr. Britton isn't involved in the museum, so that's not really even a good

excuse; I am sorry, however, to hear of the loss of your colleague.



> not to involve my clients in their affairs. I will say that members of

> the new board did try to mend the damage done by their colleagues, but

> by that time the train had left the station.



The offer had been pulled from the table, I assume? I don't speak for the

museum, either, only for me, but that's also pretty poor. I thought taking

your ball and going home went out in 3rd grade. If I mischaracterize the

situation, I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong.



-D







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:30:13 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum

From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" 



on 1/31/03 8:16 PM, Derrick J Brashear at shadow@dementia.org wrote:



> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 smartcommco@earthlink.net wrote:

> 

>> which their money and messaging were deployed. As for

>> TheBroadwayLtd.com, Darin Wilson, the amazing Flash illustrator whose

>> work was featured on the site died tragically in the World Trade Center

>> on 9/11. Mr. Britton's attitude is indicative of many of those

>> associated with the Museum at that time and one of the reasons I chose

> 

> Mr. Britton isn't involved in the museum, so that's not really even a good

> excuse; I am sorry, however, to hear of the loss of your colleague.

> 

I seemed to have missed a post in the middle somewhere...



The news of the passing of Mr. Wilson and his role in the Broadway Limited

project is indeed new news to me and, I suspect, most of us. I'm sorry to

hear of this. The work in progress was first rate.



Unfortunately, as with many projects on the Internet, they remain long after

the originator moves on. There are so many privately created sites whose

owners move to new ISP's and, amazingly, their sites remain active on their

old ISP's for months and sometimes years.



The site in question -- thebroadwayltd.com -- is actually still

active...with no indication that anything was amiss.



I'm not being argumentative here, just reflective.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region

 Modeling the PRR in September 1954

  http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:42:31 -0800

From: smartcommco@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum



Mr. Brashear,



To clarify the circumstances. I volunteered the time, materials and expenses

to launch a marketing and corporate sponsorship program for the Museum. I met

with and spoke to several members of the board and presented them with

programs that could be deployed immediately at absolutely no cost to bring

critically needed revenue into the Museum.

The sincerity and earnestness of those in my initial discussions and

subsiquent meetings convinced me of the seriousness of the situation and the

need for deep pockets to be brought into the mix. For this reason and for the

commitment shown by Mr. Levin, Mr. Cessna and Dr. Andy Mulhollen I went out

on a limb and presented the Museum's plight to one of my clients who had

expressed an interest in the sponsorship of an historic site. Their only

caveat was that I exercise creative control of the marketing messaging so as

to not cause them legal or branding damage as a result of their involvement.

When bringing up the issue of this creative control, I was told "Thanks, but

no thanks. We don't want to cause a conflict with the chairman of our

marketing committee. I did not pick up my blocks and go home. I was asked to

leave. And left to explain to my client, who by this time had already begin

to mobilize their considerable clout that now they would have to stand down.

This is not "third grade". This is just one more example of an American

Historic Treasure left to the whims of Philistines. And this from the same

people who thought that the spectacular EF-15's built by Gregg Martin and

donated by Athearn were best served by being stuffed in a desk drawer at the

Museum. As for Mr. Britton, I know he is not associated with the Museum. My

comment was directed to his off-handed remark about TheBroadwayLtd.com.

Although the site was only able to create 7 installments, the work of Mr

Buchan, Mr.Strassner, Darin and the many other artisans, designers and

technologists involved is worthy of our respect even if it "ever got past

Episode 2".

A great deal of blood, sweat, tears and money has gone into the Altoona

Railroad Memorial Museum. It is very easy for us to Monday Morning

Quarterback it's uncertain fate. But even though it has caused me personal

and professional embarrassment, I applaud the effort of all of those who have

done what they could to keep it alive. You are wrong Mr. Brashear. But at

least you are here. Long live the spirit of the PRR.



Harry Webber



Derrick J Brashear wrote:



> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 smartcommco@earthlink.net wrote:

>

> > which their money and messaging were deployed. As for

> > TheBroadwayLtd.com, Darin Wilson, the amazing Flash illustrator whose

> > work was featured on the site died tragically in the World Trade Center

> > on 9/11. Mr. Britton's attitude is indicative of many of those

> > associated with the Museum at that time and one of the reasons I chose

>

> Mr. Britton isn't involved in the museum, so that's not really even a good

> excuse; I am sorry, however, to hear of the loss of your colleague.

>

> > not to involve my clients in their affairs. I will say that members of

> > the new board did try to mend the damage done by their colleagues, but

> > by that time the train had left the station.

>

> The offer had been pulled from the table, I assume? I don't speak for the

> museum, either, only for me, but that's also pretty poor. I thought taking

> your ball and going home went out in 3rd grade. If I mischaracterize the

> situation, I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong.

>

> -D

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:19:23 -0500

From: "Michael A. Hmel" 

Subject: Fw: [PRR] Altoona Museum



in a message posted by :

From: "Derrick J Brashear" 

To: "PRR Talk" 

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:16 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum









> The offer had been pulled from the table, I assume? I don't speak for the

> museum, either, only for me, but that's also pretty poor. I thought taking

> your ball and going home went out in 3rd grade. If I mischaracterize the

> situation, I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong.

>

> -D



In responds to your characterization :



Mr Webber offered the museum his services for free .

I , trying to get involved , contacted him with a few ideas I had . He was

very genuine in his desire to help and as I recall the only costs were going

to be print fees / postage . When the powers that be decided to not accept

his generous offer  he was still gracious and implored me to contact the

Museum  with the ideas I had discussed with him .

Regardless of the fact that the offers was not accepted , it was by far the

best offer that came from anyone who responded to the thread . We are unable

to determine the results of said offer since he never had the chance to

conduct his effort . I am positive it would have been as good as  if not

better than what was done . It is his business and on top of that his heart

was obviously in it .

 As for said peoples " taking their ball and going home " , maybe it could

be rephrased as " dropping of the ball " , or " dropping a bag of money " .

I can't imagine someone keeping an offer like this one on the table

indefinitely . Furthermore the criticism can no more lie with the removal of

an offer than with the decline of that offer .   The museum had and still

has the right to accept or decline any offer it wants , they have people in

place who I am sure have the museum in their best interest . However I think

members of this list may not have realized the incredible potential of

having someone like Mr .Webber on the job .



Mike Hmel

PRRT&HS , PRR Talk , TCA , PC Modeler , Conrail talk , Lonel Collector





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:45:11 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroaders Memorial Museum

From: "Douglas Nelson" 



> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand

this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.



--MS_Mac_OE_3126901511_494532_MIME_Part

Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Scott Cessna from the museum wrote:  By the way, the Curve will be open 

after March 29th for FREE during non-operating hours - no funicular, no

visitor center, but use the steps and have a ball!



That's great news!



In regard to all the discussion about the Altoona museum, as too often

happens, the negative tone of the discussion overwhelms the truth.  The

reality is that we have an excellent museum now.  The fact that there has

been financial mismanagement combined with an unusual drop in tourism (post

9/11) and a downturn in the national economy does not mean that the museum

is not viable.  On the positive side, it is already is a great place to

visit and new programs, including the K4, in the future will make it better.

The museum does not exist in a vacuum, rather it is one of many

heritage-oriented attractions in the western Pennsylvania region.  With the

new management group's focus on promoting the entire region, the Altoona

museum will benefit from more effective marketing.  The museum's mission, in

contrast to Strasburg, focuses on more on the railroaders and this sets it

apart.  As fans of the PRR, we should look for ways to support the museum.



Doug Nelson.

--MS_Mac_OE_3126901511_494532_MIME_Part

Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Re: [PRR] Railroaders Memorial Museum






Scott Cessna from the museum wrote:  By the way, the Curve will be open after March 29th for FREE du=

ring non-operating hours - no funicular, no visitor center, but use the step=

s and have a ball!


 


That's great news!





In regard to all the discussion about the Altoona museum, as too often happ=

ens, the negative tone of the discussion overwhelms the truth.  The rea=

lity is that we have an excellent museum now.  The fact that there has =

been financial mismanagement combined with an unusual drop in tourism (post =

9/11) and a downturn in the national economy does not mean that the museum i=

s not viable.  On the positive side, it is already is a great place to =

visit and new programs, including the K4, in the future will make it better.=

  The museum does not exist in a vacuum, rather it is one of many herit=

age-oriented attractions in the western Pennsylvania region.  With the =

new management group's focus on promoting the entire region, the Altoona mus=

eum will benefit from more effective marketing.  The museum's mission, =

in contrast to Strasburg, focuses on more on the railroaders and this sets i=

t apart.  As fans of the PRR, we should look for ways to support the mu=

seum.





Doug Nelson.








--MS_Mac_OE_3126901511_494532_MIME_Part--





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!