From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 08:51:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List. I am thinning out some double items so I have the following items for sale. Please contact me off list using the above subject please for further information. The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - The History of the Floods of March,1936 & January,1937 by Chas. W. Garrett. 154pgs. Excellent Cond. with some slight wear to top edge of rear cover near spine (from being in a tight shelf) and at front corner. Loads of great pictures and maps of weather information leading to the flood. Name of original owner inside front cover with Sept.15,1937 date. PRR CT1000E-May1,1945. Pages 129-158 have a notch cut out for easier referencing Phila. Div. Most likely from a former Phila. Div. employee. Book in excellent condition. Two Atlas N-scale PRR SD35,#6025 & #6018. New,never run. Would like to sell together. Two Atlas Great Northern FA1. Both powered. New older stock. I never ran them and I don't think they were ever run before I bought them as I got them a few years after they came out. Project cancelled. Thanks. Happy New Year to everyone. Pat McKinney --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List.
               I am thinning out some double items so I have the following
items for sale. Please contact me off list using the above subject please
for further information.

The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - The History of the Floods of March,1936
  & January,1937 by Chas. W. Garrett. 154pgs. Excellent Cond. with some
  slight wear to top edge of rear cover near spine (from being in a tight shelf)
  and at front corner. Loads of great pictures and maps of weather information
  leading to the flood. Name of original owner inside front cover with
  Sept.15,1937 date.

PRR CT1000E-May1,1945. Pages 129-158 have a notch cut out for easier
  referencing Phila. Div. Most likely from a former Phila. Div. employee. Book
  in excellent condition.

Two Atlas N-scale PRR SD35,#6025 & #6018. New,never run. Would like to
  sell together.

Two Atlas Great Northern FA1. Both powered. New older stock. I never ran
  them and I don't think they were ever run before I bought them as I got
  them a few years after they came out. Project cancelled.

Thanks. Happy New Year to everyone.

Pat McKinney

   --part1_19f.e49f27e.2b444c6d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Item For Sale Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:50:39 -0500 Group, I have an older Dremmel Drill press for sale I doen't fit my Dremmel. The throat is 1 3/4" If anybody is interested feel free to e-mail me direct at svastano@hotmail.com I am open to any offer. It will not work for me at all. The condition is good. Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:14:00 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Middle Division Michael, Would you be more specific as to the location of these screenshots? I was unsuccessful in a search of the forum sections, as well as other places. Thanks, and Happy New Year, Steve Bartlett Michael DiMaio wrote: I know where it is.. ... There are screen shots available in the fora at http://www.train- sim.com ... Michael DiMaio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Inventory Blow-Out Sale Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:47:16 -0500 The tax man cometh so the inventory must goeth. Items to be sold at 40-50% off MSRP's and I am offering items to listmember before my general mailing goes out. To view list please go to www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/saleitems.doc Happy hunting. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Repacked Dates Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:35:55 -0700 Bill, Repacking of journal bearings was usually done on a 24 month cycle. The process was that the journal box was jacked up under the cellar and the packing material underneath the journal bearing, (cotton waste or more likely later on a specially developed pad, unofficially refered to as a "Kotex") would be removed and replaced. The bearing surfaces would be inspected for damage. The axle would then be dropped while the new packing material would then be oiled. This was done on all eight (for most cars) journal boxes and the car would be restenciled to reflect the maintenance performed. Most cars were checked for oil on a almost daily basis...car knockers would carry a can of oil while inspecting inbound trains at a yard, lift the cover and add oil if needed. The pad was developed due to the fact that sometimes due to hard coupling the bearing would lift off the journal surface on the axle and a string of waste sometimes would get lodged under the babbit metal. This would lead to oil starvation on the bearing (the oil would form a wedge and be the actual load carrying surface on which the load was carried) would "wipe" causing bearing failure (hotbox). Another cause of bearing failure was the fact that bums and transients would remove the waste to use to start fires at night. Interestingly enough, most of the time at speeds greater than 15 mph, a conventional journal bearing had the same rolling resistance as a roller bearing. But the higher maintenance requirements, constant oil leakage on the face of the wheels (ever notice that all wheel faces on conventional bearing eqipped cars were dead black?) and cold weather resistance (due to higher oil viscosities in cold weather) at low speeds (as well as the other points mentioned above) led to the eventual banning of conventional bearings in railroad use. However, they are still used today in many applications. Please note that I do NOT refer to these bearings as "friction" bearings (there ain't no such thing) This was a slander that was due to the direct advertising efforts of the Timken Company to bad mouth these bearings. I once met a engineer who worked for Timken and he confirmed that this was the case. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 Bill Lane wrote: > Hi All, > > If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would > it be out on the > road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply > adding oil, or > disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does > the type of car make > a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the > main question is, > what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to > it's first painted > repacked date? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:41:32 -0600 Pofoff stainless steel grills may not be solvable for all conditions. Stainless steel expands and contracts at a different rate with respect to temperature than plastic, so the grill may fit at one condition, but not the other. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 6:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 12/31/02 3:13:22 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I can't tell you about brass, but the Athearn Genesis F-7s have to be either the best or right up there. >> Once you remove the extra horn and do something (don't know what, yet) about the mediocre mechanism. But on the bright side, the colors are right and the shell casting is great. BTW, they still haven't solved the problem of the popoff stainless grilles, but I can't fault them for that---no one else has, either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:18:42 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Exciting News --=====================_130421486==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed During the holidays I had the opportunity to view the masters for a new line of Pennsy structures. Most of these will be released in N scale through G scale. Estimated release dates should be starting in the spring 2003. Keep watch for the releases at www.trainstuffllc.com. Randy Williamson --=====================_130421486==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

During the holidays I had the opportunity to view the masters for a new line of Pennsy structures.  Most of these will be released in N scale through G scale.  Estimated release dates should be starting in the spring 2003.  Keep watch for the releases at www.trainstuffllc.com.

Randy Williamson --=====================_130421486==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy F7 Stainless Grills Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:47:11 -0500 I've had better results by using 3M spray adhesive. It remains flexible and sticky. The trick is applying it without getting it all over everything. I take the grills and clean them, then lay them on a sheet of newspaper, outdoors. I spray the back side (side to be attached to the model) lightly and evenly. Then, I lay it against the model and press gently. Spray should be just enough that it doesn't begin to fill up the openings in the grill. If you do apply too much adhesive, remove it with lacquer thinner and try it again. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:12:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Hello Bob & list...... You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre mechanism". What don't you like about the mech? I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just curious. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates List, Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:43:43 -0500 Gary, Those would be either the Baldwin or Lima "transfer" units with two prime movers and a center cab, classes BS24 and LS25, both were built starting in 1951. PRR 5683 was the last locomotive built by Lima. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates > List, > > Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After > learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was > attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. > This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 > unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos > represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did > they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:43:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates Gregg, I thought of those locos also but PP2 says those locos were 2500 HP, not 2000 HP. Maybe the PRR never built the 7 2 unit 2000 HP locos? .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:02:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Exciting News --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J tower end of 2002??? Anyone got photos of the prototype or some info on the time period and so forth. I need more info! :) I will have to sell all my other kits for PRR specific stuff! :) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J tower end of 2002???  Anyone got photos of the prototype or some info on the time period and so forth.  I need more info! :)  I will have to sell all my other kits for PRR specific stuff! :)


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_38.337f364e.2b44a33e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:09:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Repacked Dates List, Several days ago Bill Lane provided info on PRR Trust Plates. After learning more info about the plate I own (Series Y) I see it was attached to a piece of equioment from the 1951 funds that were acquired. This list of locos that this plate could be from includes 7 pairs of 2 unit 2000 HP Switching Locos. I am unfamiliar as to what these locos represent. It sounds like a Cow/Calf unit. PRR didn't have these did they? What other loco could these be. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Hess" Subject: [PRR] Worst PRR Models Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:59:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, =20 There has been a thread about the worst PRR models. What can you tell me about the Mantua PRR 0-4-0 switcher with the slope = back tender. Does this resemble anything that PRR ever had and if so = what road number was assigned? Thanks, Bob Hess ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

List,   
    There has been a = thread about=20 the worst PRR models.
What can you tell me about the Mantua = PRR 0-4-0=20 switcher with the slope back tender.  Does this resemble anything = that PRR=20 ever had and if so what road number was assigned?
Thanks,
 
Bob Hess
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2B1AE.D22410C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:01:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Worst PRR Models --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are obviously just a youngster - in the 1960's Aristo - Craft sold european steam locos, complete with red plastic driver centers - as PRR, once tried to file a pair of them, purchase "two fer" into G-5's but they were just incredibly poor. If the Mantua 0-4-0 bothered you, you could always buy an English plastic A-5, less a motor, for 99 cents. A-5 boiler actually looked better on the Mantua "big six" chassis as a B-6. --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit     You are obviously just a youngster - in the 1960's Aristo - Craft sold european steam locos, complete with red plastic driver centers - as PRR, once tried to file a pair of them, purchase "two fer" into G-5's but they were just incredibly poor.
    If the Mantua 0-4-0 bothered you, you could always buy an English plastic A-5, less a motor, for 99 cents. A-5 boiler actually looked better on the Mantua "big six" chassis as a B-6.

 --part1_13.164213b0.2b44bf54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:27:39 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - IHC Pass. Cars From: Beth Caples Is the smooth side observation car that IHC CURRENTLY OFFERS the same as the PRR's Tower Series Car with the flat tail end? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 09:56:14 -0800 Good luck getting the signals to work properly on TS. I spent quite a bit of time trying to get the NEC signals right and finally gave up. When I was still employed by Uncle Bill, I tried my best to offer help to the TrainSim team when the product was still under development, but they weren't at all interested. The primary problem is that the signal API (application programming interface) is geared towards route signaling and not speed signaling like the PRR used. Route signaling is where the indication informs the engineer which route is selected and the engineer travels at the proper speed. Speed signaling tells the engineer what speed to go with no information about what route is selected. The intermediate signals were workable, but the scripting language was simply not robust enough to properly calculate interlocking signal indications in anything but the simplest of situations. The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the cabsignal. On the NEC simulation, you can fly past a clear signal at full speed, only to get an overspeed penalty brake application, because the cabsignal changed in anticipation of the next signal. John -----Original Message----- From: mdimaio@ids.net To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, December 30, 2002 5:10 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Middle Division Currently, the last task to be done is to complete the installation of signals. Currently the signals reach from Harrisburg to Lewistown. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:10:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division John Cooper wrote: "The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the cabsignal." But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. No? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:23:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. Absolutely NOT, cab signals carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by, NOT the signal ahead. Al --Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Re: But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal you can't see yet.
 
 
Absolutely NOT, cab signals carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by, NOT the signal ahead.
 
Al

 
--Boundary_(ID_EgzFM28da0xIz6U8F+E1ag)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:22:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab signals should change to "approach". Right? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:36:04 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Dave said, "I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab signals should change to "approach". Right?" No Dave that's not correct, you carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until to get to the next signal. If you go by a "clear" the cab stays "clear" also until the next signal. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:47:22 -0700 Dave and all, I have no idea what this means...I own a three unit set of these in PRR and they are some of the finest drives I have ever run. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Bob & list...... > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre > mechanism". What > don't you like about the mech? > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just > curious. > > Dave Hopson > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:08:43 -0500 I own an A-A-B-A set of F's and I think that the drive surpasses the Kato drives for F-units. I am thinking of buying another A-B set. Go ahead and buy your set! That is my recommendation. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units > Dave and all, > > I have no idea what this means...I own a three unit set of > these in PRR and they are some of the finest drives I have > ever run. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0500 (EST) > zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Hello Bob & list...... > > > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre > > mechanism". What > > don't you like about the mech? > > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just > > curious. > > > > Dave Hopson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Thanks Ted, I've got a bunch of emails about how great they are. "Just as good as Kato drives" sounds good to me. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:31:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division 0100,0100,0100OK, I agree with John and Al now, the cab signal agrees with the signal the engine has just passed. I just spent some time with the rule book, and now I understand how it all is supposed to work: the cab signal conforms with the fixed signal shortly after passing the fixed signal; if conditions improve subsequently, the cab signal will display a more favorable indication, which then governs; or if something goes wrong (like a train running a signal and entering your block) the cab signal will show Restricting, which the engineman must be governed by. And if the cab signal does not conform with the signal just passed, it's an irregular condition that must be reported; if the cab signal gave a more favorable indication, in fact, the engine is to be taken out of service for inspection on arrival at the terminal. You learn something every day! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:08:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units In a message dated 1/1/03 12:45:39 PM Central Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << What don't you like about the mech? >> It is noisy. I have had two of the (quite thin, in my opinion underdesigned) dogbones out of 6 fracture. One of the truck assemblies was falling apart when I got it and works now, but is shaky. It is better than 75 percent of the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I don't have a new Kato to compare). I only made my remarks because I questioned calling it one of the best PRR locos made. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:27:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units In a message dated 1/1/03 8:13:17 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote: << It is better than 75 percent of the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I don't have a new Kato to compare) >> Just to clarify, I am referring to the mechanism. The shell is probably better than all of the locos of 25 years ago . Again, it is not my intent to bash Athearn, though I have considered making up an aftermarket metal dogbone for the units. IMO, the new Stewart F mechanism is better. Haven't ever run an Intermountain unit, so can't comment. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Newspaper article on Altoona Railroaders Museum While looking for something else, I found: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_108419.html ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Athearn/Genesis F units On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > It is noisy. I have had two of the (quite thin, in my opinion underdesigned) > dogbones out of 6 fracture. One of the truck assemblies was falling apart > when I got it and works now, but is shaky. It is better than 75 percent of > the locos of 25 years ago, but not on a par with Atlas or Stewart today (I > don't have a new Kato to compare). I only made my remarks because I > questioned calling it one of the best PRR locos made. I haven't run mine. If that happens to mine, I still stick with my choice, because I can easily replace drive components; Detailing and repainting a body is considerably harder. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:28:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Train-Sim Signals for the Middle Division As the one who has had the most experioence with PRR position light signals on the Mid Div within the sim, I thoughjtI would jump into the discussion (I installed 135 miles worth of them). First, no one really understands how signals work in MSTS. Mike Vone one of the two two deans of route design says as much in his standard work on route building. KUJU (the programers of MSTS) have never explained how they work. No one who designs a route expects them or should expect them to behave like those in the real world (pace the views ofd mygood friend Hank Sundermeyer aka the Signalmaster). Richard Garber, the other dean of route building and who has written the standard work on MSTS activity design, says the signals serve the function of flow control. That is to say, to keep ai trains (those controled by the computer) from being stalemated with the player's train. This means that a route designer has to optimize the signals to keep traffic moving, even if it means not following the prototype. I have attempted to follow the prototype and it may well cause problems with ai trains. Ill know in a day or two. Nore later! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:04:00 EST Subject: [PRR] And the answer is -- Lines West roundhouse, probably not --part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick??????? > ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan > To: 'Earl Myers' > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse > > > > Earl, > > There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to > certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think > friend Rick Tipton may have the answer. > > Al > > -----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse Al; I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened. Earl Myers >> Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question. This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book. Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses. Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana. Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been. Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air. I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes. OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)... <> And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea: << Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson >> I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design. The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes:


Rick???????
----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan
To: 'Earl Myers'
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse



Earl,

There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think friend Rick Tipton may have the answer.

Al


-----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM
To: Al Buchan
Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse


Al;
 I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened.
Earl Myers

>>

Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question.  This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book.

Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses.  Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana.  Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been.

Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air.  I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes.

OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)...

<<Re: PRR Crestline, Ohio roundhouse
From: John Amstrong "mjjarm@earthlink.net"
Category: General Questions
Date: 9/29/99
Time: 10:24:33 PM
Remote Name: 63.22.175.39
Comments
Th roundhuse was built by the Austin Co of Cleveland Ohio. I produced the models used in Th Austin FORTUNE Magazine ads for 13 years. The hadphotos but would not allow me to copy or use them. They built EMD's La Grange plant. Loaned the photos to the party who wrote the Trains article on EMD, and never saw the photos again. No one had access to anything after that. The photos showed USRA locos on the turntable>>

And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea:

<< Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures
From: "Bob Johnson" <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400

Greg and List,

I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with
considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were
actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any
other railroad build them?

Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I
found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no
reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western
Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477".
Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20,
1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to
get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA
designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design.

The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls:
Stark E.H., Canton - 30
Crestline E.H. - 30
Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?]
Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15
Jeffersonville E.H. - 15
Scully E.H. - 34

The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's
no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another
source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and
Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received
this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets
of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design,
instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of
drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for
Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to
the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32
stalls for a full circle.

Bob Johnson
>>

I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design.  The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. 

Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off).
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_30.349bded5.2b451430_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:29:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any given signal governs the track that lays beyond it. Therefore, at = any given time, the engineer is always complying with the rules of the = last signal he's seen. The cabsignals have the same amount of authority = to govern as do any wayside signal the engineer could look at. The = cabsignals are not merely an aide or convenience. Because they have the = same amount of authority, naturally there must be agreement between the = cabsignals and the wayside in terms of what the engineer is required to = do. Therefore the cabsignal must agree with the last signal passed. So for example, if an engineer passes an approach indication and has = come upon a stop signal, it is not the stop signal ahead of him that is = governing his movement (or lack thereof). Even when he is stopped in = front of the stop signal, he is still governed by the previous = "approach" which says: "Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal". = He is free to proceed forward anywhere in the block. The only thing he = can't do is pass the stop signal. As odd as it may seem, the cabsignals = will display approach when a train is stopped in front of a stop signal. = (There is an exception which I'll cover below) Walk to the front and = look in the window of an eastbound on the upper level of 30th st, or = westbound in Suburban station to see for yourself. =20 Likewise, if an engineer is viewing an approach signal, he need not = touch the brake until he passes it. The previous signal governs until = then. Thus the cabsignals will stay "clear" until the train passes the = "approach". The braking distances are calculated with this in mind when = the signal system is being designed. (There was actually much debate in = the PC days after the merger among rules examiners, because the NYC = believed the engineer was to react as soon as he saw the signal).=20 =20 There are a couple of exceptions to when the cabsignals don't agree with = the last signal. Because it is somewhat strange to have an approach on = the cabsignals when stopped at a stop signal, they implemented "code = change points" at interlockings. This was a point somewhere before an = interlocking home signal where the cabsignals would change to = restricting if the home signal was displaying stop, stop and proceed, or = restricting. The location of this point is usually clearly documented = on interlocking diagrams. The station tracks at 30th st and Suburban = station don't have code change points which is why I suggest them as = examples. =20 The other exception is after having crossed over and leaving the limits = of an interlocking. If the train crossed over on a "medium clear", that = rule says to proceed at medium speed within interlocking limits. = Outside interlocking limits, there is no speed restriction. In this = case, the cabsignal will display "approach medium" to conform (as best = it can) to the medium clear. At end of interlocking limits, the = cabsignal will return to "clear". =20 John =20 -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division John Cooper wrote: =20 =20 "The second problem is with the cab signals. In train sim, the cab signal reflects the next signal ahead of the train. It is supposed = to reflect the last signal the train has passed. This of course totally messes up any speed enforcement that is associated with the = cabsignal." =20 But isn't this the way real cab signals work? I always thought they = display an indication that reflects the next signal ahead. So if you are = passing a "clear" signal and the next signal is "approach," even if you = can't see the wayside signal yet, the cab signal changes to reflect the = approach indication at the signal you can't see yet. =20 No? =20 John Bobsin =20 =20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any given signal governs the track that lays beyond = it. =20 Therefore, at any given time, the engineer is always complying with the = rules of=20 the last signal he's seen.  The cabsignals = have the=20 same amount of authority to govern as do any wayside signal the engineer = could=20 look at.  The cabsignals are not merely an aide or = convenience. =20 Because they have the same amount of authority, naturally there must be=20 agreement between the cabsignals and the wayside in terms of what the = engineer=20 is required to do.  Therefore the cabsignal must agree with the = last signal=20 passed.
 
So for example, if an engineer passes an approach = indication=20 and has come upon a stop signal, it is not the stop signal ahead of him = that is=20 governing his movement (or lack thereof).  Even when he is stopped = in front=20 of the stop signal, he is still governed by the previous = "approach"=20 which says: "Proceed prepared to stop at the next = signal".  He is=20 free to proceed forward anywhere in the block.  The only thing he = can't do=20 is pass the stop signal.  As odd as it may seem, the cabsignals = will=20 display approach when a train is stopped in front of a stop = signal.  (There=20 is an exception which I'll cover below)  Walk to the front and look = in the=20 window of an eastbound on the upper level of 30th st, or westbound in = Suburban=20 station to see for yourself.
 
Likewise, if an engineer is viewing an approach = signal, he=20 need not touch the brake until he passes it.  The previous signal = governs=20 until then.  Thus the cabsignals will stay "clear" until = the=20 train passes the "approach".  The braking distances are=20 calculated with this in mind when the signal system is being = designed. =20 (There was actually much debate in the PC days after the merger among = rules=20 examiners, because the NYC believed the engineer was to react as soon as = he saw=20 the signal). 
 
There are a couple of exceptions to when the = cabsignals don't=20 agree with the last signal.  Because it is somewhat strange to have = an=20 approach on the cabsignals when stopped at a stop signal, they = implemented=20 "code change points" at interlockings.  This was a point=20 somewhere before an interlocking home signal where the cabsignals would = change=20 to restricting if the home signal was displaying stop, stop and proceed, = or=20 restricting.  The location of this point is usually clearly = documented on=20 interlocking diagrams.  The station tracks at 30th st and Suburban = station=20 don't have code change points which is why I suggest them as=20 examples.
 
The other exception is after having crossed over and = leaving=20 the limits of an interlocking.  If the train crossed over on a = "medium=20 clear", that rule says to proceed at medium speed within = interlocking=20 limits.  Outside interlocking limits, there is no speed = restriction. =20 In this case, the cabsignal will display "approach medium" to = conform=20 (as best it can) to the medium clear.  At end of interlocking = limits, the=20 cabsignal will return to "clear".
 
John
 
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 bobsin@nac.net <bobsin@nac.net>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = TrainSim=20 signals Was: PRR Middle Division

John=20 Cooper wrote:


"The second problem is with the cab = signals.=20 In train sim, the cab
signal reflects the next signal ahead of = the train.=20 It is supposed to
reflect the last signal the train has passed. = This of=20 course totally
messes up any speed enforcement that is associated = with=20 the cabsignal."

But isn't this the way real cab signals = work? I=20 always thought they display an indication that reflects the next = signal=20 ahead. So if you are passing a "clear" signal and the next = signal=20 is "approach," even if you can't see the wayside signal = yet, the=20 cab signal changes to reflect the approach indication at the signal = you=20 can't see yet.

No?

John = Bobsin


--------------------------------------------------=

---------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2B1C3.B52A9100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates (explained) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:35:53 -0500 The repacked (required) date varied over the years depending upon the type of bearings and the lubricating pads. The AAR published requirements each year and it was up to the railroad moving the car to note the last repack date and if the car was overdate, they would shop it and repack it. The term "repack" goes back to the days when all cars had friction bearings and cotton waste jammed into the journal box which acted as a wick to absorb the oil and oil the bottom of the axle journal. The oil would then stick on the axle as it rotated under the friction bearing on the top of the axle. Wastepack was used exclusively in 1955 and if I remember correctly, the cars needed to be repacked (i.e. all waste removed and replaced with new and the bearing inspected or replaced) every two years. The road doing the work, then stenciled their road name, shop location and date on the car. Then then billed the owning road for the work performed at a rate set by the AAR. Around 1957 or 58 the wastepack began to be replaced by foam rubber pads that were enclosed in a layer of canvas with cotton threads covering the whole think simlar to the sponge mops we use today. There were literally hundereds of varieties of these pads and some were quickly withdrawn from the approved list because they were failure prone. At anyrate, the two years requirement for wastepack was extended to four years (as I remember it) and in the early 1960s, cotton waste was outlawed from use and a restricted number of brands of foam rubber pads were allowed. Of course the roller bearing cars had re-lube requirements as well and the railroads followed the same pattern. Stencil the date re-lubed and bill the car owner. Towards the end of the friction bearing era, the N&W developed the flat back bearing which spread the load over a much wider area and the Pennsy late model hopper cars had these. The 100 ton cars had roller bearings with a few of them getting the sealed "Clevite" friction bearings which had a bad track record. Hope this helps a little. Bill Volkmer (been to lots of wrecks with failed journal bearings as the culprit) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lane Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 11:12 AM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Repacked Dates Hi All, If a car was shopped (Painted etc) 10-55, how long would it be out on the road before it gets repacked again? Would this be simply adding oil, or disassembling the trucks for bearing maintenance? Does the type of car make a difference in this? How is this tracked? Finally, the main question is, what would the time frame have been from a paint job, to it's first painted repacked date? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net as I don't receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:44:08 -0500 List: The only problem I've had with the Genesis locos is the electrical pickup. The electrical pickup is transferred from the wheel axles to brass plates located inside the plastic frames. This is fine except that the brass plates are NOT a bearing surface, so the power continuity can be momentarily lost. This is a problem on DCC as it will cause the locos to stop momentarily. This is a nuisance. I've corrected this by running jumper wires between all three locos in consist. This will almost guarantee that you'll never lose power to the decoders. Since adding these jumpers, I've had no problems with the Genesis and consider them to be some of the finest locos I own. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 1:45 PM Subject: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units > Hello Bob & list...... > > You referred to the Genesis F-7 having a "mediocre mechanism". What > don't you like about the mech? > I'm about to buy an ABBA set of Genesis F-7s. Just curious. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:06:18 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - IHC Pass. Cars Beth, No, the current IHC obs is a boat tail car. I have been told that the prototype for the current IHC streamlined cars are SF and Southern. Presumably some smoothside SF cars and some PS fluted Southern prototypes were chosen and then each kind was done in both smooth side and fluted. So half the cars have no prototype at all! Then they painted the cars, the prototype SF cars the prototype Southern Cars, and those with no prototype at all, for every RR they thought might sell. The cars also were made with Budd ends As an aside, the Southern prototype cars are reasonable, if you shave the Budd stuff off the ends, remove the oversize window frames, and replace the trucks. I rebuilt several coaches, a diner, and a combine (all Southern prototypes) for a Birmingham Special to run behind a GG-1. Of all the Southern connections which ran on the corridor, I chose the Birmingham Special because it was one of the few trains which carried the obscure Pullman which Bachmann produces. I had to find some use for that car! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Beth Caples wrote: > Is the smooth side observation car that IHC CURRENTLY OFFERS the same > as the PRR's Tower Series Car with the flat tail end? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:53:03 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum The temporary board of directors got Mr. Cessna to come in & clean up the mess at the museum. Maybe I'm missing something from the article but now, whoever, wants the life members to give up their voting rights for new people to stand for election to a new board of directors to confirm/oversee Mr. Cessna's actions. Instead, the lifers will be given a pat on the back and told, "Yeah, your $ were blown. Now, please go away. We are in charge, have different plans, and you will mess up the operation." What was not defined in the article:- 1) who elects the new ARM board of directors; 2) who is allowed to run for the new BoD; 3) who is this new organization which appears as the white knight - will they and their BoD really be in charge. They are able to run the ARM cheaper/efficiently? how? What is wrong with electing a new ARM BoD? They are placing a lot emphasis on bylaw changes or electing a new director - that is the skunk stink in the woodpile. Most organizations have a mechanism to appoint a director until the next election occurs. And what bylaw changes so desperately need to be made? There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about the ARM's future - guess I've heard one too many, "Trust us; we're in charge now - go away but still send $." Someone has found an 'Ivory Tower' in need of renovation and control - my nasty ole perspective. -=- Bob Colquitt another "Sweet Old Bob" > Subject: Newspaper article on Altoona Railroaders Museum > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) > > While looking for something else, I found: > > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_108419.html > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:39:01 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Listmembers, I posted this in hopes of getting additional measurements. Does anyone out there have an early PFM I1s with the supposedly smaller boiler, who can put a caliper to the smokebox front and tell us what is the diameter? My suspicion is that all the PFM I1s had the correct diameter boiler. Tom Hayden >-----Original Message----- >From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines > > >List, > >Maybe we can settle this. > >First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the >I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second >run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the >tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. > >More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more >correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. > >Here's what I have so far : > >I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR >loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with >measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These >are the dimensions at the smokebox: > >I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" >K4, L1 are 82 " > >In measuring all the models I and others own : > >I1's >Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) >PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) >Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc >casting) >PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late >"correct" size) >Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) >M1's >Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) >Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) >K4s/L1's >PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) >PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) >PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) >Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) >Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) > >I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to >different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small >difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made >directly across the smokebox front. > >If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe >they could make a measurement and add to this. > >Regards, Tom Hayden > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:15:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum In a message dated 1/2/03 10:02:51 AM, wahsatch@planetcomm.net writes: << Maybe I'm missing something from the article but now, whoever, wants the life members to give up their voting rights for new people to stand for election to a new board of directors to confirm/oversee Mr. Cessna's actions. Instead, the lifers will be given a pat on the back and told, "Yeah, your $ were blown. Now, please go away. We are in charge, have different plans, and you will mess up the operation." What was not defined in the article:- 1) who elects the new ARM board of directors; 2) who is allowed to run for the new BoD; 3) who is this new organization which appears as the white knight - will they and their BoD really be in charge. They are able to run the ARM cheaper/efficiently? how? >> I can't get through to the article but did do a Guidestar search (www.guidestar.org) & found "Railroaders Memorial Museum, Inc. Altoona, PA 16602 The mission of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum to honor railroad workers and their significant contributions to the culture and development of the railroad industry and to preserve this rich heritage for the education, enjoyment and enrichment of present and future generations." This is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit and has rules of governance very different from a standard corporation. Their tax return is at the Guidestar site. They have $15 million in assets ($14 in "investments") and an annual income of $1.6 million. I do a lot of volunteering to fix 501(c)(3). This much money and the salaries and perqs that go with can easily start a fight. The ED is shown as a guy named McNitt, a six year employee, IIRC. The construct of the BoD and who has power is a function of the by laws (not posted). But, "life" members may not have a vote. Directors can serve for a fixed period (we suggest not more than 3 terms of 2 years each) with elections staggered. After the six years, a loyal & interested director goes o n an "advisory" board. This is probably the "life" board. They have no vote but are carried on the letterhead. Warning - YMMV. Anyone interested should contact the museum directly and ask for a copy of the by laws, the state charter, and the 990s (IRS tax forms) for the past three years. All are, I believe, public records under federal law. A modest copying fee may be charged and all should be available, on demand, for personal inspection at the museum's primary business location. Regards, Marty   ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:33:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum The plot has moved on: "ALTOONA: Members give up voting Life members of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum have agreed to give up their voting rights as the financially troubled museum struggles to overcome its debts. The 800 life members had the power to vote on bylaw changes and elect board members, but otherwise did not run daily operations. The members voted 54-29 Saturday to give up their rights. Usually, fewer than 50 members attended annual meetings and some time ago, a quorum was reduced to 25. Scott Cessna, executive director of the museum, said answering to 800 members was too cumbersome and that streamlining would help the museum. In place of the life members, a nine member board will decide museum matters. Dick Charlesworth, a board member since 1975, likened the move to the voters of Pennsylvania giving the General Assembly the right to become self-perpetuating. Harley Burket, a life member, said while the change might be a step backward from a democratic ideal, the members hardly have a right to squawk because so few participated. The life members, most of whom paid $100 or $500, still will get perks such as free museum access and discounts. The museum has been hailed as a model for transit museums. It's on the site of what had been the largest factory for the Pennsylvania Railroad But in the spring, it found itself about $750,000 in debt. That's been pared to about $200,000 since a crisis management team took control. The new board will now consider whether to enter into a management agreement with Westsylvania Heritage Corp., which conserves and promotes heritage assets in the Altoona region. That could take place next month, Cessna said. The idea is for the museum to begin acting like a for-profit organization and become less reliant on government grants and more self-sustaining, Cessna said." Source: http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_east/20021223eburbp9.asp Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:04:00 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] And the answer is -- Lines West roundhouse, probably not USRA roundhouse In a message dated 12/31/02 2:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick??????? > ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Buchan > To: 'Earl Myers' > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:50 PM > Subject: RE: "USRA" Roundhouse > > > > Earl, > > There was quite a discussion of the annotation "USRA" being assigned to > certain roundhouses quite sometime ago on one of the PRR lists. I think > friend Rick Tipton may have the answer. > > Al > > -----Original Message-----From: Earl Myers [mailto:emyers5@neo.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: "USRA" Roundhouse Al; I have some prints on the Crestline Roundhouse and have seen the whole file that is available on it. It is basically the mirror image of Canton's and same as the other two, Scully and Mingo Junction. I should say those two are built the same but have many fewer stalls. I have tramped all over the Crestline Facility as late as a year ago. Where did "we" as the railnuts ever see the "USRA" attached to those roundhouses??? Also heard #5 was to be built in Jeffersonville, Indiana but apparently that never happened. Earl Myers >> Sorry Al -- I'm the poor slob who originally asked the question. This was because I read about a "USRA" roundhouse design at Crestline in a caption in the Q2 book. Ever since I sent that message (can't find just when I sent it), we've been hearing about USRA roundhouses. Above, Earl states that four stood at Crestline, Mingo Junction, Scully and Canton, with a fifth projected but never built in Jeffersonville Indiana. Of course, to the local Louisville rail historians, that is a provocative statement, as we'd never heard of it before, and have no idea just what its positioning might have been. Incidentally, this leaves the design/origin of roundhouses at Columbus St. Clair Avenue, at Fort Wayne, at Alliance, and at Orville up in the air. I once saw an ad by the builder of Columbus' house in a publication of the 20's, but naturally I failed to take good notes. OTOH, I did find the following in my files, which I believe to be THE John Armstrong, the wizard of Silver Springs (MD)... <> And in still another email, Dr. Bob Johnson of the PRRT&HS pretty well debunks the "USRA roundhouse" idea: << Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Where was this?] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson >> I conclude that the "class of 1919" roundhouse was really a contemporary Lines West design. The need for this bigger roundhouse should be apparent -- consider how much bigger PRR standard engines were getting in this period. Perhaps some additional light would be shed on this subject by compiling the built dates of the other roundhouses mentioned -- I wonder how many of them are slightly later (I assume LW improvements continued through at least 1928, when traffic may have started to drop off). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:36:36 -0500 From: bisbeelaw@cs.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) The early I-1 models from PFM used the boiler from the L-1/K-4. It was noticeably smaller than the correct boiler. The Pennline/Bowser I-1 boiler was also, at first, the same as their L-1/K-4 and thus too small. I don't know whether the latest Bowser I-1 boiler is correct, though I would imagine it is... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:52:52 -0500 Alex: Try this : http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr018.htm or these : http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr206.htm http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr212.htm -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Alex Charyna Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:21 PM To: PRR-Talk Posting Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Nice shot Ted. The Strasburg RR has a great computer wallpaper picture of #31. I'm looking for a Pennsy winter shot suitable for desktop wallpaper. Though any Pennsy snow pictures would be welcome. Please share links... (on or off list).. thanks. -alesx ----- Original Message ----- But as for the Pennsylvania, click on the following link to what I think is one of the best Pennsy-Christmas pictures ever taken. http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/contributor/scb-adams.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:51:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Altoona Railroaders Museum In a message dated 1/2/03 10:02:51 AM, wahsatch@planetcomm.net writes: << There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about the ARM's future - guess I've heard one too many, "Trust us; we're in charge now - go away but still send $." Someone has found an 'Ivory Tower' in need of renovation and control - my nasty ole perspective. >> You've got me started. A Google search for "Scott Cessna" turned up a lot, including what looks to be the news index from a local radio station, WRTA. Source: "http://www.brianthomaswebworks.com/wrta/news2/viewnews.asp" >From this site, I culled the following: RAILROADERS MUSEUM -12/10/02 The Railroaders Memorial Museum is asking the city for help in securing 1.9 million dollars in additional funding from the government to complete the work at the museum. The city’s participation in securing the funding would not involve any outlay of any city money. ALTOONA RAILROADERS MEMORIAL MUSEUM -12/9/02 The interim executive board of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum will ask the museum’s 800 life members to relinguish their power over the organization at a meeting on December 21st. The interim board has guided the museum since the museum’s 750 thousand dollar debt became known in the spring. Members of the temporary board say the museum would be better served if a self-perpetuating executive board were apointed to run the museum. If the life members agree to vote away their power later this month, they will still retain their admission and museum-store discount privileges. RAILRAODERS MUSEUM -11/18/02 Last week, Scott Cessna was named the new Executive Director of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Cessna has been overseeing operations since the museum first appointed a special committee to save the facility from financial ruin. Cessna accepted the job, knowing that his tenure could be short with the possibility that the Westsylvania Heritage Group could take over operation of the museum. MUSEUM -11/12/02 Just one group so far has picked up information packets to make a pitch for control of the financially troubles Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, and proposals are due Friday. Scott Cessna, interim Finance Director, say it’s unlikely any other group has the time to pick up a packet and prepare a complete proposal. Westsylvania Heritage Corporation will propose intregating the museum into its ongoing mission to conserve and market the region’s heritage assets. RAILROADERS MUSEUM -10/16/02 Of all the uncertainty revolving around the Altoona Railroaders Museum, one thing appears to be clear. They need a bigger staff to promote and run the museum effectively. WRTA News spoke with the acting treasurer, Scott Cessna, who said that they are looking to have a staff of around 15 to 18 people. They currently have 10 employees. Cessna said that they are looking at two ways to do this. First, they can add staff of their own, or they can hire an outside group to run the museum. They have asked for proposals to be submitted within 30 days. RAILROADERS MUSEUM -10/15/02 It looks like the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is ready to make a management change. The Museum’s Executive Committee is looking for an outside firm, experienced with heritage and tourism, to take over the management operations. Committee Treasurer Scott Cessna says museum leadership will review proposals and then decide whether or not to turn over the day to day operations. A decision could be made by Thanksgiving. MUSEUM -10/4/02 The Altoona Railroaders Museum is hoping to have a big weekend during Railfest this Saturday and Sunday. The museum is holding a chicken barbecue at the museum Saturday. The museum, over the course of the weekend, is hoping to raise 30 thousand dollars. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:52:45 -0500 Tom: I don't own an early version of the PFM I1 but I can tell you that it was wrong. PFM used a K4 boiler on their early I1's also with undersized front air tanks. Very bad! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hayden To: PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) > Listmembers, > > I posted this in hopes of getting additional measurements. > Does anyone out there have an early PFM I1s with the supposedly smaller > boiler, who can put a caliper to the smokebox front and tell us what is the > diameter? My suspicion is that all the PFM I1s had the correct diameter > boiler. > > Tom Hayden > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM > >To: PRR-Talk > >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines > > > > > >List, > > > >Maybe we can settle this. > > > >First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the > >I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second > >run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the > >tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. > > > >More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more > >correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. > > > >Here's what I have so far : > > > >I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR > >loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with > >measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These > >are the dimensions at the smokebox: > > > >I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" > >K4, L1 are 82 " > > > >In measuring all the models I and others own : > > > >I1's > >Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) > >PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) > >Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc > >casting) > >PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late > >"correct" size) > >Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) > >M1's > >Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) > >Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) > >K4s/L1's > >PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) > >PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) > >PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) > >Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) > >Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) > > > >I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to > >different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small > >difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made > >directly across the smokebox front. > > > >If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe > >they could make a measurement and add to this. > > > >Regards, Tom Hayden > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:17:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) In a message dated 1/2/03 2:58:49 PM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes: << I don't own an early version of the PFM I1 but I can tell you that it was wrong. >> What constitutes an early version? My PFM United I1 measures 88 to 88.5 inches diameter depending on my shaky hands with the caliper, but I don't know what vintage it is or how to tell. BTW what are the air cylinder diameters supposed to be? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:07:48 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Bisbee, Do you know for a fact that the early PFM boilers were undersized? This is a common belief but there have been others who dispute this which is why I am asking for anyone who actually HAS one to simply measure it and let us know. We can all tell from Bowser manuals that it is it is a FACT that the early Penn-Line and Bowser I1s used the same boiler as the K4s. But, as you can see from the measurements I posted, the latest Bowser I1s boiler is actually slightly (about a scale 2") oversized. Tom At 01:36 PM 01/02/2003 -0500, bisbeelaw@cs.com wrote: >The early I-1 models from PFM used the boiler from the L-1/K-4. It was >noticeably smaller than the correct boiler. The Pennline/Bowser I-1 boiler >was also, at first, the same as their L-1/K-4 and thus too small. I don't >know whether the latest Bowser I-1 boiler is correct, though I would >imagine it is... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:35:29 -0500 PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? If anyone can help me with a photo of the correct lettering (especially loco numbering) of the "As Delivered" GP9b units your help would be very appreciated. My photos do not show the early lettering only the larger style. You can respond offline by sending to this E-mail address: prrk4s@msn.com Thanks in advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 21:02:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PFM I-1s From: Eugene Nowlan Only slightly helpful: according to the 1994 edition of "The Brown Book of Brass" PFM imported the following Prr Decapods 1 1967 490 1968 $70 600 1970 $90 500 1971 $100 These are the only ones listed. Peach Creek Shops has one listed for $200. They might know which year run it is and measure it or at least opinionate on the correctness. HTH, Gene Nowlan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Photos Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:02:35 -0500 Since many of the people on these lists use George Elwood's site I thought I would crosspost this message The original message is from Gerhard Stuebben.Please read. Brian Carlson > An unscrupulous person (operating under the name of "Blue Flame > Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / PRR images from George Elwood's > Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) and is selling them on CD. > > As George says: > "It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions > Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing > them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from > me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, > I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my > site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned > and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't > belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already > heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action." > > Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half of the NYC photos on that site > are from my personal collection, I am more than a little upset -- as are > contributors for other railroads. The eBay seller, who was apparently > unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed to remove them from sale: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=2152174635 > > My initial attempt to identify who is behind "Blue Flame Productions" has > been unsuccessful. If you have any leads, or should see these disks for > sale at train meets, please contact me (stuebben@flash.net) or George Elwood > (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of the seller. I am not > interested in taking action against innocent purchasers or dealers; I'm just > trying to get the illegal duplication stopped. > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > Gary Stuebben > Dayton, OH > > > > > NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION: http://www.nycshs.org/news.html > > New York Central System Historical Society Website: > www.nycshs.org > > Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada division) website: www.canadasouthern.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PFM I1s (was worst models..) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:34:29 -0700 Tom, I can assure you that the first run of these DID indeed have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late 1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did exist, and they are NOT rumor. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:07:48 -0500 Tom Hayden wrote: > > Bisbee, > > Do you know for a fact that the early PFM boilers were > undersized? This is a common belief but there have been > others who dispute this which is why I am asking for > anyone who actually HAS one to simply measure it and let > us know. We can all tell from Bowser manuals that it is > it is a FACT that the early Penn-Line and Bowser I1s used > the same boiler as the K4s. But, as you can see from the > measurements I posted, the latest Bowser I1s boiler is > actually slightly (about a scale 2") oversized. > > Tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:46:22 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - wire train car #495200 Hi, A while back John asked for pics of the PB70 used in wire train service inthe Harrisburg area. > > Does anyone out there have photo's or drawings of car #495200 ? It use > > to sit at the Harrisburg Station for years around the late 1970's - early > > 80's. > > I believe that it was a BP-70 combine that was converted to a MOW car. > > It also had round windows like the MP-54's on the A end of the car. B > > end ? > > Car was equipped with 6 wheel trucks and a cupola on the roof in the > > center of the car. Above the baggage end was a pantograph. > > I believe this car might have been used for wire inspection? > > Any info. would be greatly appreciated! John Caples I found the photos, and am mostly posting them for John, but perhaps others are interested. I did not write down the date the photos were taken, but it was probably mid-1990's See url's below. http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-1.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-2.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-3.jpg - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:18:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On page 36 of "Wayner Publications", "Passenger Train Consists of the = 1940's, there is a photo of the passageway side of PRR # 6707 = Baggage-Dormitory. I'd guess the photo was taken at the Sunnyside yard, = because of the industrial buildings in the background and the overhead = wire. The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. train 29 = westbound departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes = baggage-dormitory car 6707, which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit = diner with crew's quarters. George Votava photo." >From all outward appearances this looks like a lightweight car, low roof = and all, but rides on 6 wheel trucks. Here are my questions. Can anyone answer these questions or in the = alternative point me in the right direction? Question: Any history available on this car? Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the = non passageway side? Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would = like to share? Chris Baer, recently told me that Mr. Votava had passed away, the prints = sold off and the family wants max bucks for the negatives. =20 Great New Year to all !!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On page 36 of "Wayner = Publications",=20 "Passenger Train Consists of the 1940's, there is a photo of the = passageway side=20 of PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory.  I'd guess the photo was taken at = the=20 Sunnyside yard, because of the industrial buildings in the background = and the=20 overhead wire.  The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. train 29 = westbound=20 departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes baggage-dormitory car = 6707,=20 which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit diner with crew's = quarters. =20 George Votava photo."
 
From all outward = appearances this=20 looks like a lightweight car, low roof and all, but rides on 6 wheel=20 trucks.
 
Here are my = questions.  Can=20 anyone answer these questions or in the alternative point me in the = right=20 direction?
 
Question:  Any = history available=20 on this car?
 
Question:  Anyone = have the=20 window arrangement for the other side, the non passageway = side?
 
Question:  Does = anyone have=20 additional photos of this car they would like to share?
 
Chris Baer, recently = told me that Mr.=20 Votava had passed away, the prints sold off and the family wants max = bucks for=20 the negatives. 
 
Great New Year to all=20 !!!
 
All the best to you and = yours       = Weldon
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2B2BD.966045D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:26:16 -0500 Harry: On page 220 of Pennsy Power II, there is a photo of GP9B # 7198B. The photo credit is General Motors. Looks like a brand spanking new paint job. I'd be happy to scan it, or copy and mail it to you. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? > PRR EFS-17m (GP9) "B" unit as delivered lettering? > > If anyone can help me with a photo of the correct lettering (especially loco > numbering) of the "As Delivered" GP9b units your help would be very > appreciated. My photos do not show the early lettering only the larger > style. > > You can respond offline by sending to this E-mail address: prrk4s@msn.com > > > Thanks in advance, > > Harry Fitch > prrk4s@msn.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:40:55 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve Evanthought the curve is closed, is it possible to walk up the steps? If the lot is closed, where could I park, roadside? Will my car be disturbed parking along roadside? Is the museum open during all this commotion with the changing of the guard? I plan to visit the museum and the curve on my way to see Punxsutawney Phil. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:08:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > Question: Any history available on this car? The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo. Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train. There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708. There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981]. The car was PRR class PBD70A. Here is a link to the elevation and end view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70a.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan. > > Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment. you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though. > > Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like > to share? > --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes:

Question:  Any history available on this car?


The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo.  Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train.  There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708.  There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981].  The car was PRR class PBD70A.  Here is a link to the elevation and end view:  http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70a.gif&sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=
Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car:  http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif&sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=

The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan.

 
Question:  Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non passageway side?


Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment.  you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though.

 
Question:  Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like to share?


 --part1_187.13ca9e44.2b4682ed_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:20:39 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I1sa front air tank diameters Hello list, Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the I1s/I1sa class front air tanks. I'm about 4500 miles from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc. MR Cyclopedia Vol 1 page 59 has plans of the I1s/I1sa. According to this plan, the front air tanks measure 30" in diameter. I also took a look at my Bowser I1sa. It has Cary front air tanks (part 13-156)that measure 32" in diameter. The original Bowser air tanks (part 603) measure 35 or 36". Assuming the MR plan is accurate, the Cary front air tanks are closer to prototype size. Anyone closer to the 4483, please chime in...grin! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:45:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa front air tank diameters --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/03 7:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: > Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the > I1s/I1sa class front air tanks. I'm about 4500 miles > from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc. > Hi Doug. Bob, and others, "The Keystone" Vol. 1, No.2 lists the dimensions of the I1s tanks on the pilot deck as 32-5/8"x 3'3". Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/03 7:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes:

Bob Zoeller was wondering about the diameter of the
I1s/I1sa class front air tanks.  I'm about 4500 miles
from I1sa 4483, so I turned to the MR Cyc.


Hi Doug. Bob, and others,

"The Keystone" Vol. 1, No.2 lists the dimensions of the I1s tanks on the pilot deck as 32-5/8"x 3'3".

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_121.1c684711.2b46dfd5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:45:27 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Hello list, Seconding someone else's good idea, let's hear about your favorite PRR models. I have two; both are K4s engines, albeit in different scales. I have an HO Bachmann/Bowser hybrid model of K4s 1361 that is now nearly all Bowser (the boiler is Bachmann, but the mechanism and tender are courtesy of the folks in Montoursville, PA). This engine was part of the first run of Bachmann K4s engines that arrived early in 1989, and it was the first PRR passenger engine I acquired. I also have an MTH Rail King K4s with sound that fulfills a childhood wish for a tinplate PRR engine that runs well. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:31:04 -0500 List, My favorite PRR models, all N scale, are 1. the PRR H3 I modified from an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0, 2. The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab, 3. the PRR B6sb modified from a MiniTrix 0-6-0 superdetailed and tender pickup added, 4. the PRR L1s modified from a Rivarossi 2-8-2 and Minitrix boiler. I could go on. I still have a Kato-GHQ L1s to complete, along with a MiniTrix I1s to modify, and have another MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 coming from eBay. These are marvelous runners, by the way. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models > Hello list, > > Seconding someone else's good idea, let's hear about > your favorite PRR models. > > I have two; both are K4s engines, albeit in different > scales. > > I have an HO Bachmann/Bowser hybrid model of K4s 1361 > that is now nearly all Bowser (the boiler is Bachmann, > but the mechanism and tender are courtesy of the folks > in Montoursville, PA). This engine was part of the > first run of Bachmann K4s engines that arrived early > in 1989, and it was the first PRR passenger engine I > acquired. > > I also have an MTH Rail King K4s with sound that > fulfills a childhood wish for a tinplate PRR engine > that runs well. > > Doug > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] RE: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:10:37 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" George, Send an email to safeharbor@ebay.com. They should investigate and will suspend sellers for infractions such as this. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:03 PM To: PRR Talk; EL LIST; PRR Fax Cc: stmfc@yahoogroups.com Subject: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR Photos Since many of the people on these lists use George Elwood's site I thought I would crosspost this message The original message is from Gerhard Stuebben.Please read. Brian Carlson > An unscrupulous person (operating under the name of "Blue Flame > Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / PRR images from George Elwood's > Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) and is selling them on CD. > > As George says: > "It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions > Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing > them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from > me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, > I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my > site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned > and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't > belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already > heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action." > > Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half of the NYC photos on that site > are from my personal collection, I am more than a little upset -- as are > contributors for other railroads. The eBay seller, who was apparently > unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed to remove them from sale: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=2152174635 > > My initial attempt to identify who is behind "Blue Flame Productions" has > been unsuccessful. If you have any leads, or should see these disks for > sale at train meets, please contact me (stuebben@flash.net) or George Elwood > (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of the seller. I am not > interested in taking action against innocent purchasers or dealers; I'm just > trying to get the illegal duplication stopped. > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > Gary Stuebben > Dayton, OH > > > > > NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION: http://www.nycshs.org/news.html > > New York Central System Historical Society Website: > www.nycshs.org > > Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada division) website: www.canadasouthern.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / NYC / PRR = Photos

George,

Send an email to safeharbor@ebay.com.  They = should investigate and will suspend sellers for infractions such as = this.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net= ]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:03 PM
To: PRR Talk; EL LIST; PRR Fax
Cc: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (erielack) Fw: [NYC-Railroad] Pirated PC / = NYC / PRR Photos


Since many of the people on these lists use George = Elwood's site I thought I
would crosspost this message  The original = message is from Gerhard
Stuebben.Please read.

Brian Carlson

> An unscrupulous person (operating under the name = of "Blue Flame
> Productions") downloaded the PC / NYC / = PRR images from George Elwood's
> Fallen Flags web site (www.rr-fallenflags.org) = and is selling them on CD.
>
> As George says:
> "It has come to my attention that a = company named Blue Flame Productions
> Company has downloaded many of the images from = my site and is distributing
> them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on = eBay without permission from
> me or the owners of the images. Checking the = Ebay site of items being
sold,
> I was able to identify most of the images shown = as sample as ones from my
> site. Also available on these CD are the = operator manuals which I scanned
> and made available on my site. I don't have = time to surf the net and don't
> belong to eBay so this whole thing caught me by = surprise. I have already
> heard from several submitters to my site who = are considering legal
action."
>
> Since over 80% of the PC photos and over half = of the NYC photos on that
site
> are from my personal collection, I am more than = a little upset -- as are
> contributors for other railroads.  The = eBay seller, who was apparently
> unaware of the copyright violation, has agreed = to remove them from sale:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category= =3D130&item=3D2152174635
>
> My initial attempt to identify who is behind = "Blue Flame Productions" has
> been unsuccessful.  If you have any leads, = or should see these disks for
> sale at train meets, please contact me = (stuebben@flash.net) or George
Elwood
> (gelwood@dnaco.net) off-line with the name of = the seller.  I am not
> interested in taking action against innocent = purchasers or dealers; I'm
just
> trying to get the illegal duplication = stopped.
>
> Thank you in advance for your help.
>
> Gary Stuebben
> Dayton, OH
>
>
>
>
> NYCSHS 2003 CONVENTION:  http://www.nycshs.org/news.html
>
> New York Central System Historical Society = Website:
> www.nycshs.org
>
> Canada Southern (New York Central-Canada = division) website:
www.canadasouthern.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B33A.2BB19110-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:58:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Steam locomotive suspensions, was: Bowser Just a general question on steam models, promted by Lewis' very positive views on Bowser; I am certainly interested in steam, but before anything I demand reliable operation: the unit must be able to run slowly, and keep on track even if it's not perfect, by not perfect I don't mean out of gauge, but I do mean track that's handlaid and not perfectly flat and level (just like the prototype, in fact). Until the modern high-quality diesels (Kato, Atlas in HO) arrived, performance was not encouraging; now, with higher quality, it's great. For diesels. For steam locomotives, there is the additional consideration of the driving wheel suspension. Time was, every review in a magazine mentioned whether the drivers are sprung; this almost is never mentioned these days. Years ago, I had a PFM brass 2-9-0, not PRR unfortunately; but it most definitely had sprung drivers, and in fact I had to modify the springing, with less stiff springs, to make it track properly. So, of all the engines people have been discussing, are any of them built with sprung drivers? If not, I cringe at what would happen every time the drivers find a slightly high point on the track; the whole engine would necessarily rise up, and maybe derail. I don't think it's possible to hand-lay perfectly level track; and neither do the prototype roads, that's why their drivers have springs! Has anyone found the springing question to be significant? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:47:05 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] PFM I1s, and air tanks --=====================_8319975==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bisbee wrote to me: And Bill Daniels wrote: >have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late >1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who >refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these >in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s >that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did >exist, and they are NOT rumor.> So it looks pretty sure to me that the early PFM I1s DID have an undersized boiler. AND they probably also had undersized air tanks. I will continue my search for an actual measurement, for completeness, but Bill and Bis have me convinced. I see others have already posted some interesting info about the air tank dimensions and models of such. I will also check the drawings I have from a 1953 issue of Model Railroader. If no one else does so, I will personally measure the air tanks on the 4483 next summer. Tom Hayden --=====================_8319975==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bisbee wrote to me:

<I am certain about the PFM models. I had one of each, at the same time, many years ago. One big boiler, one small boiler. The difference was obvious. Back in the brass-trading days of yore, we who subjected ourselves to that hobby had to be cautious to specify, when trying to acquire an I-1, that we only wanted a correct or fast boiler model. Otherwise, the guys who got stuck with the skinny ones were more than happy to sell it to the unsuspecting.

That's what I know...>

And Bill Daniels wrote:
 
<I can assure you that the first run of these DID indeed
have a K4s/L1s sized boiler. The run came in in the late
1960's, and I personally knew the hobbyshop dealer who
refused them for that reason. I've seen a couple of these
in the interviening years, as well as the later correct I1s
that PFM brought in later on. The fact is that these did
exist, and they are NOT rumor.>


So it looks pretty sure to me that the early PFM I1s DID have an undersized boiler. AND they probably also had undersized air tanks.

I will continue my search for an actual measurement, for completeness, but Bill and Bis have me convinced.

I see others have already posted some interesting info about the air tank dimensions and models of such. I will also check the drawings I have from a 1953 issue of Model Railroader. If no one else does so, I will personally measure the air tanks on the 4483 next summer.

Tom Hayden



--=====================_8319975==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:01:53 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? --0-382422445-1041613313=:67840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? Thank you. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-382422445-1041613313=:67840 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed?

Thank you.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-382422445-1041613313=:67840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam locomotive suspensions, was: Bowser Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:07:40 +0000 It isn't a problem with Bowsers. They aren't sprung but weigh so much that tracking is rarely a problem. You will also find where you don't have enough support for your railroad if you park one in the wrong place long enough! > Just a general question on steam models, promted by Lewis' very > positive views on Bowser; > > I am certainly interested in steam, but before anything I demand > reliable operation: the unit must be able to run slowly, and keep on > track even if it's not perfect, by not perfect I don't mean out of > gauge, but I do mean track that's handlaid and not perfectly flat and > level (just like the prototype, in fact). > > Until the modern high-quality diesels (Kato, Atlas in HO) arrived, > performance was not encouraging; now, with higher quality, it's > great. For diesels. > > For steam locomotives, there is the additional consideration of the > driving wheel suspension. Time was, every review in a magazine > mentioned whether the drivers are sprung; this almost is never > mentioned these days. Years ago, I had a PFM brass 2-9-0, not > PRR unfortunately; but it most definitely had sprung drivers, and in > fact I had to modify the springing, with less stiff springs, to make it > track properly. > > So, of all the engines people have been discussing, are any of > them built with sprung drivers? If not, I cringe at what would > happen every time the drivers find a slightly high point on the track; > the whole engine would necessarily rise up, and maybe derail. I > don't think it's possible to hand-lay perfectly level track; and neither > do the prototype roads, that's why their drivers have springs! Has > anyone found the springing question to be significant? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:43:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? well, the easy part: there are certainly four tracks on the Delaware bridge! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:07:39 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Fw: NMRO List - Fw: [NERAIL] Expanded Historic USGS Maps Hi, List. I'm forwarding this email on the off-chance that some of you might be able to use the maps at UNH. Happy rails to you..... Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott J. Whitney" To: "List VRS&Rutland" ; "List Structures" ; "List Semaphores" ; "List Pinsly" ; "List NYSW" ; "List NYO&W" ; "List NSTier" ; "List NMRO" ; "List NERails" ; "List Nerailpic" ; "List NEModelers" ; "List NE C&S" ; "List Marailfan" ; "List GCDRA" ; "List EBT_Pictures" ; "List D-L" ; "List Delaware & Hudson" ; "List D&H" ; "List CV-Rwy" ; "List CV_RR" ; "List Boston & Maine" ; "List Backshop" ; "List B&M RR" Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:44 PM Subject: NMRO List - Fw: [NERAIL] Expanded Historic USGS Maps Web Site > Everyone: > The following post from the NERAIL list is VERY good news. For those > that are unaware, for a while now the University of New Hampshire has hosted > a historic topographical map site. It is an absolute wealth of information > for those wishing to research long abandoned rail lines. It had grown in > size to include areas all the way down to Maryland but then had to be scaled > back to just New York and New England. > Now comes the GREAT news that MapTech has picked up the ball and is > running with it. They are hosting a very similar site which includes all of > the UNH maps as well as those they had to drop all the way down into > Maryland. I'm hoping that they will continue to expand this coverage as > well. Please enjoy! > > SJW > > > > Everyone, > > Announcing a new web site with more historic maps of more areas: > > > > http://historical.maptech.com/ > > > > States available now include all of New England, Delaware, > > Maryland, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania. The new site is hosted > > by and supported by Maptech. They have but a substantial amount of > > effort into putting the new site together. Ed Lecuyer, a NERAIL member > > and the QA manager at Maptech was instrumental in arranging things. > > Thanks should go to Alan Simpson and Josh Davis at Maptech as well. > > We also have Ohio and most of West Virginia scanned, waiting for > > me to find some time to get them assembled and organized. These two > > states and some of Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania will come as the > > result of the scanning efforts made by Stephen Titchenal and Derrick > > Brashear. > > > > The University of New Hampshire Library has decided to keep the > > collection there to New England and New York. This UNH site will remain > up. > > > > Feel free to forward this on to any lists that might find these > > maps useful and of interest. > > > > Chris Marshall > > Amherst, New Hampshire > > NERAIL member > > > Visit the NMRO web site: http://home.adelphia.net/~nmro > Where the American Flag flies proudly on every page... > ....and always has! > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ATTENTION: > Railroad Explorer, Volume 2, #3 is on sale NOW at better railroad magazine dealers near you! > See the website http://railroadexplorer.com for details. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Post message: NMRO@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: NMRO-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: NMRO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: NMRO-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Chat: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NMRO/chat > > Got something to sell or trade? > Looking for a special railroad item? > Subscribe to The Backshop > http://www.egroups.com/subscribe.cgi/Backshop > Don't forget to vistit the NMRO homepage at: > http://home.adelphia.net/~nmro > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:11:13 -0500 From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Check out the Library of Congress . http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/hhquery.html Search for pennsylvania railroad northeast corridor There are a number of photos of the bridge. In this case, #31 is what you want. It shows the bridge, overhead, four tracks wide. With a freight coming over it from Trenton. Searching for pennsylvania railroad delaware comes up with a bunch of stuff too. You'd be surprised what pictures you can find here of old stuff. -alex On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:01:53 -0800 (PST) Randolph Harrison wrote: > > I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? > Thank you. > Randy Harrison > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:14:57 -0500 Close. The car was one of a series of PRR PDB70s, nothing to do with Pullman. Other PDB70s were modernized to match the mew streamlined equipment. Look at the drawings and note the truck center match other PRR PB70s. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com [SMTP:Chrisandbelton2@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:09 AM To: crashtech@chartermi.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car In a message dated 1/3/2003 12:26:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > Question: Any history available on this car? The original car was a heavyweight Pullman Baggage - Dorm - Lounge car rebuilt by the PRR shops into the streamstyled car in the photo. Apparently, the original streamlined Broadway Limited of 1938 did not include this car -- it was added sometime after the Broadway was re-launched in 1938 as a streamlined train. There were 2 such cars, #6707 and 6708. There is a floorplan and a 'same side' elevation of the car on page 13 in the Robert Wayner book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams [1981]. The car was PRR class PBD70A. Here is a link to the elevation and end view: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.h tml?diag=pdb70a.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= Here is a link to the floorplan of a similar car: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=pdb70ar.gif& sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr= The blueprint I have of 6707 and 6708 seems to have an identical floorplan. > > Question: Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? Although I have seen a photo of the 'other side' of this car somewhere in my collection, I can't seem to locate it at the moment. you should be able to extrapolate the window arrangement from the floorplan referenced above though. > > Question: Does anyone have additional photos of this car they would like > to share? > << File: ATT00000.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:27:37 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: NMRO List - Fw: [NERAIL] Expanded Historic USGS On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Zak wrote: > Hi, List. > > I'm forwarding this email on the off-chance that some of you might be able > to use the maps at UNH. [] > > Maryland. I'm hoping that they will continue to expand this coverage as > > well. Please enjoy! I can tell you that most of Virginia, West Virginia and Ohio are "in the can" waiting for people to have time to deal with them. A handful of maps, alphabetically at the end of Virginia, and a few missing or misscanned maps for the other 2 should be all that's left for complete coverage of those 3. Beyond that things may get sticky as there was apparently never full coverage of the U.S. in the 15' 1/62500 series. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFM I-1s Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:24:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_022A_01C2B323.16F24A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gene wrote-- > > Peach Creek Shops has one listed for $200. They might know which year = run it > is and measure it or at least opinionate on the correctness. > Wow, that one sure disappeared fast--wasn't there at noon on Jan 3. Also, I believe the PFM I1 with the small boiler has an injector under = the right side of the cab. On an I1 with feedwater heater this injector = should not be there. Easier to see that injector than it is to measure the = boiler. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_022A_01C2B323.16F24A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gene wrote--
>
> Peach Creek Shops has one listed for = $200.=20 They might know which year run
it
> is and measure it or at = least=20 opinionate on the correctness.
>
Wow, that one sure disappeared = fast--wasn't there at noon on Jan 3.

Also, I believe the PFM I1 = with the=20 small boiler has an injector under the
right side of the cab.  = On an I1=20 with feedwater heater this injector should
not be there.  Easier = to see=20 that injector than it is to measure the boiler.

Steve = Hoxie
Pensacola=20 FL
------=_NextPart_000_022A_01C2B323.16F24A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:33:15 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Weldon, Hope this helps? PDB70AR-70' Combine-Dormitory-Baggage- Budd #6707-6708- Seats 18 2DP5 Check out Rob Schoenberg's site for diagrams. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=passdormbagg&sz=sm&fr=ge Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Weldon Greiger wrote: > On page 36 of "Wayner Publications", "Passenger Train Consists of the > 1940's, there is a photo of the passageway side of PRR # 6707 > Baggage-Dormitory. I'd guess the photo was taken at the Sunnyside > yard, because of the industrial buildings in the background and the > overhead wire. The captions reads, "The consist below (Broadway Ltd. > train 29 westbound departing Harrisburg, PA. July 13, 1946) includes > baggage-dormitory car 6707, which was replaced in 1948 by a twin unit > diner with crew's quarters. George Votava photo." From all outward > appearances this looks like a lightweight car, low roof and all, but > rides on 6 wheel trucks. Here are my questions. Can anyone answer > these questions or in the alternative point me in the right > direction? Question: Any history available on this car? Question: > Anyone have the window arrangement for the other side, the non > passageway side? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:47:13 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B358.8791D2D0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello all, I'm new to the list and was wondering if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia. Thanks Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B358.8791D2D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR-Talk

Hello all,
I'm new to the list and was wondering = if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that = comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia.

Thanks

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro = Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B358.8791D2D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn/Genesis F units Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:29:46 -0500 Listers, Ted wrote: I own an A-A-B-A set of F's and I think that the drive surpasses the Kato drives for F-units. I am thinking of buying another A-B set. Go ahead and buy your set! That is my recommendation. Ted Andrews I'm having trouble finding a single a-unit to go with my A-B set. So I have 3 questions 1) Can I build one from the Highliner shell? How hard a paint match and what underframe to use? It doesn't have to be powered. 2)in 1955-56 which was more common for the F-7's A-B-A or A-B-B-A 3)There is a single A-unit in a Hobby shop near me but it has the same road # as the A-unit I have. I assume that the PRR did not have A-B-A sets with all the same road numbers that 1 A and 1 B should have the same # but the other A should be different. Speaking of B-units does anyone know a hobby shop that has a P1000 PRR C-liner B-unit for sale? Got the latest Walther's sale flier and on page 32 is a nice shot of the R50B reefer! I assume the Keystone scheme is the late (60's) scheme where they just used a Keystone instead of a roadname. Finally I know there is a gentleman on this list on the Delmarva peninsula unfortunately I can't find a message with his name (and the many and varied signatures) Could you please e-mail me off list. Thanks for reading! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:56:49 EST Subject: [PRR] DREAM TRAINS --part1_ba.33c454fe.2b475311_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received my copy today. Looks interesting. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_ba.33c454fe.2b475311_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received my copy today.
Looks interesting.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years
 --part1_ba.33c454fe.2b475311_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:19:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car --part1_195.13442b53.2b475845_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weldon Geiger indicated that the trucks were 6 wheel. 2D-P5s are 4 wheel. My sources (Roster 10/01/54) indicate that they rode on 3D7P2s. Class was PDB70a Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_195.13442b53.2b475845_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weldon Geiger indicated that the trucks were 6 wheel. 2D-P5s are 4 wheel. My sources (Roster 10/01/54) indicate that they rode on 3D7P2s. Class was PDB70a

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_195.13442b53.2b475845_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:01:05 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Ray: You are right. My error. Eddie RBurg74133@aol.com wrote: > Weldon Geiger indicated that the trucks were 6 wheel. 2D-P5s are 4 > wheel. My sources (Roster 10/01/54) indicate that they rode on 3D7P2s. > Class was PDB70a > > Ray Burghart > SPF for over 50 years ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:50:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR] wire train car #495200 Hi everyone, Al Buchan sent me this privately, but I thought others might enjoy it. >Looks like you or whoever took the last two shots was falling down the >stairs. Hope no one got hurt. ;^) Don't worry - I'm all healed up by now! Sorry about the diagonal composition! Actually I couldn't get far enuf away from the car to fit the entire thing into the viewfinder, so I tried to fit it diagonally. It still didn't work, as you can see! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:50:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Favorite PRR models Hey Gregg, > The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 > using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab This one sounds pretty cool! Were there any special "gotchas" to watch for? While I've not done so yet, I believe the trucks & underframe from the recently-released KATO caboose should be good to use in tenders for small steam such as this, since it provides all-wheel pickup. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:13:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve From: "Douglas Nelson" George: I was in Altoona a couple of weeks ago. The museum is closed. The website gives no details other than saying that it is closed until Spring. The Curve is closed also. I'm not sure about parking outside the gate and walking in. The steps are probably covered with ice and about a foot of snow which may make going up difficult and coming down, well, fast. There are other ways to get to the Curve but they all involve trespassing which is probably not recommended these days. Lots of other good places to see trains though. I recommend Cassandra, just east of Portage. Doug Nelson ---------- >From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the Curve >Date: Thu, Jan 2, 2003, 9:40 PM > > Evanthought the curve is closed, is it possible to walk up the steps? > If the lot is closed, where could I park, roadside? > Will my car be disturbed parking along roadside? > Is the museum open during all this commotion with the changing of the guard? > > I plan to visit the museum and the curve on my way to see Punxsutawney Phil. > > Thanks > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 22:17:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: wire train car #495200 Claus, et al., I was going through some photos this evening and found a color photo (from Bob's Photos) of what at first blush appears to be a PB70 in wire train service. A close examination of the window placement reveals that this car, PRR 495207, was actually a P70 with most of the windows blocked out and with a baggage door cut in. The other give away is it has a vestibule on both ends. Under the car number is a description of its use "RIDING TOOL & MATERIAL CAR." The other cars in the wire train were two class FM tower cars, a class X31 "S" car (looks like 497340) and a class GR cable and reel car. I have already deleted your message w/ photo attachments. Did the 495200 have a vestibule at only one end? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:36:47 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3124467407_198072_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy: The bridge has four tracks. Triumph V has an aerial photo of the bridge on page 68. Its not a close up, so it is hard to see the details, but there appears to be a railing, probably PRR safety railing. Doug Nelson ---------- From: Randolph Harrison To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 9:01 AM I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? Thank you. Randy Harrison --MS_Mac_OE_3124467407_198072_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Randy:

The bridge has four tracks.  Triumph V has an aerial photo of the brid= ge on page 68.  Its not a close up, so it is hard to see the details, b= ut there appears to be a railing, probably PRR safety railing.

Doug Nelson

----------
From: Randolph Harrison <hbcrandy@yahoo.com>
To: PRR talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?
Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 9:01 AM



I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River = to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any ph= otos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed?

Thank you.

Randy Harrison
--MS_Mac_OE_3124467407_198072_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Re: Favorite PRR models Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:01:33 -0500 Claus and list, Yes, there are a few "gotchas" on the A5. First, I left everything below the runningboards from the Rivarossi casting, as well as the front wall of the cab from the Rivarossi casting. This, like the B6sb, is a metal casting. The B6 boiler was also cut above the running board and in front of the cab and then cut into three pieces to make the A5 boiler. A single lung air pump was turned from brass as were various other details. Tomorrow I may try a picture with the same lousy camera. BTW, while we're discussing cameras. Any suggestions for a good digital camera around 200 bucks discount that will take good closeup pictures and doesn't have "bells & whistles" I don't want like "videos". It just has to download to a USB port. Claus, you can get a USB upgrade for Windows 95 according to the USB card I installed in my computer. You might check with Cyberguys at 1-800-892-1010 in Ranch Cucamonga. That's where I bought my card over the internet. Gregg Mahlkov BTW, took a better pix and will send separate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:50 PM Subject: Favorite PRR models > Hey Gregg, > > > The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 > > using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab > > This one sounds pretty cool! > > Were there any special "gotchas" to watch for? > > While I've not done so yet, I believe the trucks & > underframe from the recently-released KATO caboose should be > good to use in tenders for small steam such as this, since > it provides all-wheel pickup. > > - Claus > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 00:48:34 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Bl2xVCuNhqqp9w8NpMTi3w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Triumph V has that info. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph Harrison Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:02 PM To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed? Thank you. Randy Harrison ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --Boundary_(ID_Bl2xVCuNhqqp9w8NpMTi3w) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Triumph V has that info.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph Harrison
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:02 PM
To: PRR talk
Subject: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?

I am considering modeling the arched stone viaduct over the Delaware River to Trenton, N.J. How many tracks cross the bridge? Do any of you have any photos of the top of the bridge that will show me the roadbed?

Thank you.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
--Boundary_(ID_Bl2xVCuNhqqp9w8NpMTi3w)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 01:02:01 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-Talk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qU0HxK7ppaprmVb8jI5p+A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT PRR-TalkKen- To my knowledge, this branch has never had an issue done on it by the Phila. Chpt PRRTHS. What exactly are you looking for about the branch? The branch is not that long mileage wise. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk Hello all, I'm new to the list and was wondering if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia. Thanks Kenneth W. Nesbitt Telecommunications Manager Penncro Associates 215-322-2438 ext 317 --Boundary_(ID_qU0HxK7ppaprmVb8jI5p+A) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT PRR-Talk
Ken-
 
To my knowledge, this branch has never had an issue done on it by the Phila. Chpt PRRTHS.  What exactly are you looking for about the branch?  The branch is not that long mileage wise.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of KNesbitt@penncro.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:47 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk

Hello all,
I'm new to the list and was wondering if anyone had any historic information on the Bustleton branch that comes off the NEC at Holmesburg junction in Philadelphia.

Thanks

Kenneth W. Nesbitt
Telecommunications Manager
Penncro Associates
215-322-2438 ext 317

--Boundary_(ID_qU0HxK7ppaprmVb8jI5p+A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 10:05:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Trenton -- was The Bridge On the subject of Fair Trenton, I drove through there a few weeks ago following the line to Bordentown, which is now being rebuilt as part of the south Jersey light rail system. What is the history of this line? Does it predate the PRR main line? The reason I ask is, in Trenton, it crosses over the PRR main (just west of the station) and continues, straight as an arrow, into downtown Trenton; the connection to the main line is a steep grade and seems to be almost an afterthought. In Warren Lee's "Down Along the Old Bel- Del" there are maps of Trenton trackage; this line is called the South Trenton Branch, and joins the Bel-Del near MG Tower (Allegheny enthusiasts, no, not _that_ MG!) Is this some ancient line that the PRR absorbed? Once the light rail line goes into service, later this year I think, it will be nice to have a considerable stretch of ex-PRR trackage restored to passenger service; this will run all the way to Camden on the old Camden & Amboy, although I think that at the Camden end new street-running trackage is being constructed. By the way, this was my first visit to the Bordentown junction (with the old Camden & Amboy line). It's much changed, I think; what was evidently a wye track connecting Trenton to the Amboy direction is gone, a large parking lot has been constructed, and the new light rail station. in place, near the local road underpass. What I think must've been the girders for the wye track bridge over the road are still there, newly painted, but now unused. The old C&A line towards Amboy remains in its historic state in its cut through the middle of Bordentown, probably still used for occasional freight service as far as it goes (Robbinsville?) John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:53:49 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: wire train car #495200 Hi Al & list members, Al wrote: I was going through some photos this evening and found a color photo > (from Bob's Photos) of what at first blush appears to be a PB70 in wire > train service. A close examination of the window placement reveals that > this car, PRR 495207, was actually a P70 with most of the windows > blocked out and with a baggage door cut in. The other give away is it > has a vestibule on both ends. Under the car number is a description of > its use "RIDING TOOL & MATERIAL CAR." > > The other cars in the wire train were two class FM tower cars, a class > X31 "S" car (looks like 497340) and a class GR cable and reel car. > > I have already deleted your message w/ photo attachments. Did the 495200 > have a vestibule at only one end? I didn't send the photos as attachments - I just gave the URL to find them - they are still on my web pages at: http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-1.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-2.jpg http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/pass/PB70-3.jpg In general, the car is one hell of a prototype kitbash. The baggage end of the car seems to have an end from an mP54 - round porthole windows. Also the car is clearly is riding on 3C-P1 trucks - the dual support pads on the truck & car sides are the give-away. It has a pan and a cupola. But given the 3C-P1 trucks, this is no converted P70, that's for sure! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:29:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2B3EC.F9F9D9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to thank all who replied. I hope to model this car later this = year. I'll post a photo when done. Chris: If you come across a photo of the non passageway side I'd = appreciate a copy. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: gspear01@erols.com ; crashtech@chartermi.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707 Baggage-Dormitory Car ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2B3EC.F9F9D9F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I want to thank all who = replied.  I hope to model this car later this year.  I'll post = a photo=20 when done.
 
Chris:  If you = come across a=20 photo of the non passageway side I'd appreciate a copy.
 
All the best to you and yours      =20 Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
To: gspear01@erols.com ; crashtech@chartermi.net ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 = 8:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR # 6707=20 Baggage-Dormitory Car

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C2B3EC.F9F9D9F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:06:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? --part1_137.19430c7d.2b487c98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: > Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider > modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan, > confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World > Takes." (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest, > "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Or to the east, "Lloyds of > Linden.") A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version > is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses." > > John Bobsin Hi John and others, The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer exists. I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester. "I saw a sign that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?" His reply was "Toilet paper." The Scott Paper Company was there and, unfortunately, Chester has seen better days. However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) Station has been restored recently. Regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_137.19430c7d.2b487c98_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net writes:

Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider
modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan,
confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World
Takes."  (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest,
"What Chester Makes Makes Chester."  Or to the east, "Lloyds of
Linden.")  A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version
is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses."

John Bobsin


Hi John and others,

The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer exists.  I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester.  "I saw a sign that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?"  His reply was "Toilet paper."  The Scott Paper Company was there and, unfortunately, Chester has seen better days.  However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) Station has been restored recently.

Regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_137.19430c7d.2b487c98_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 13:19:19 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_p2IwlU3Asfxjda6dsUSmbg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is a minor rant, so please ignore it unless you care to be amused. ------------------------------------------ I love MT trucks with couplers. I really do. I think they're the greatest thing since bread fresh from a bakery that you slice yourself. Can anyone tell me, however, if there is some very special, probably arcane, reason that the wheels pop out when the wheelset is looked at wrong? ------------------------ Sorry for the interruption of the normal flow of info on this web. I just got done putting new sets on about a dozen boxcars and/or reefers (about a 50-50 %age), and my back is killing me from bending over to pick the wheels up from the floor. ;-) Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_p2IwlU3Asfxjda6dsUSmbg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
This is a minor rant, so please ignore it unless you care to be amused.
------------------------------------------
I love MT trucks with couplers.  I really do.  I think they're the greatest thing since bread fresh from a bakery that you slice yourself.
 
Can anyone tell me, however, if there is some very special, probably arcane, reason that the wheels pop out when the wheelset is looked at wrong?
------------------------
Sorry for the interruption of the normal flow of info on this web.  I just got done putting new sets on about a dozen  boxcars and/or reefers (about a 50-50 %age), and my back is killing me from bending over to pick the wheels up from the floor.  ;-)
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_p2IwlU3Asfxjda6dsUSmbg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 13:56:03 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: wire train car #495200 Claus, Re: your comment, "But given the 3C-P1 trucks, this is no converted P70, that's for sure!" Your correct that it's a PB70 not a P70 as there is only one vestibule end also. The wire train P70 PRR 495207, which I spoke of also has round windows in the ends. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 16:11:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Well, if Chester makes toilet paper, my understanding is that one of the principal products of Trenton was "pottery," which in reality was . . . toilets! All no doubt shipped via Pennsy freight. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:24:39 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_CJMIYC2gybrGvGqcg+ZOOg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT "Trenton Makes -- The World Takes." Tell me if I am wrong, but this slogan originated in Philadelphia as "Philadelpha makes what the world takes" back in its days of being a manufacturing giant. Once industry left, the sign was passed onto Trenton. Now what's there. Lenox left. You do have a recently renovated train station. --Boundary_(ID_CJMIYC2gybrGvGqcg+ZOOg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
"Trenton Makes -- The World Takes."
 
Tell me if I am wrong, but this slogan originated in Philadelphia as "Philadelpha makes what the world takes" back in its days of being a manufacturing giant.  Once industry left, the sign was passed onto Trenton.  Now what's there.  Lenox left.  You do have a recently renovated train station.
--Boundary_(ID_CJMIYC2gybrGvGqcg+ZOOg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:28:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B427.7645B800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please Email me with your correct Email address. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B427.7645B800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please Email me with your correct Email address.
 
=
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B427.7645B800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Steve Bundick Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:44:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2B429.BF8023A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve Email me again please. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edmund burbage=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick Please Email me with your correct Email address. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2B429.BF8023A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve Email me again please.
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick

Please Email me with your correct Email address.
 
=
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2B429.BF8023A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Email address Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:46:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C2B429.EE6A5500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edmund burbage=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick Please Email me with your correct Email address. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C2B429.EE6A5500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: [PRR] Steve Bundick

Please Email me with your correct Email address.
 
=
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C2B429.EE6A5500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:52:26 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_1KNLqFS5YGVdjYZ49uIYxg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to me. Question though: how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas Accumate couplers? I seem to remember reading on this net - maybe a month or so ago - an email of someone who really despised the Accumate couplers. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob McKay To: Zak Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Sounds like you are referring to the low profile wheel sets?? MT axles for MT trucks, Atlas axles for Atlas and other trucks. Seems to work for me. Only because I got tired of bending over to pick up MT wheelsets off the floor. boB --Boundary_(ID_1KNLqFS5YGVdjYZ49uIYxg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to me.  Question though:  how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas Accumate couplers?  I seem to remember reading on this net - maybe a month or so ago - an email of someone who really despised the Accumate couplers.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob McKay
To: Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers

Sounds like you are referring to the low profile wheel sets??  MT axles for MT trucks, Atlas axles for Atlas and other trucks.  Seems to work for me.  Only because I got tired of bending over to pick up MT wheelsets off the floor.
boB
--Boundary_(ID_1KNLqFS5YGVdjYZ49uIYxg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:50:37 -0800 Subject: [PRR] paint the drivers Hi, I'd like to paint the drivers on several of my PRR steam locos - that is to say, the axle, spokes, and tire sides of the drivers. Can anyone suggest a suitable color? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 00:17:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2B44F.CDEA5DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, The two coupler types work fairly well together. The Accumates from = Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, causing = derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at = crosswise. A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel = superglue to attach the pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works = fine. I may try this on some Accumate trucks I have next time I need a = pair of trucks, since I'd have to drive over 100 miles each way to buy a = pair of M-T trucks. Gregg Mahlkov. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: Bob McKay ; prr-talk=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to me. Question though: = how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas Accumate couplers? I = seem to remember reading on this net - maybe a month or so ago - an = email of someone who really despised the Accumate couplers. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob McKay=20 To: Zak=20 Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Sounds like you are referring to the low profile wheel sets?? MT = axles for MT trucks, Atlas axles for Atlas and other trucks. Seems to = work for me. Only because I got tired of bending over to pick up MT = wheelsets off the floor. boB ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2B44F.CDEA5DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 
The two coupler types work fairly well together. The = Accumates=20 from Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, = causing=20 derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at = crosswise.=20 A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel superglue to = attach the=20 pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works fine. I may try this on = some=20 Accumate trucks I have next time I need a pair of trucks, since I'd have = to=20 drive over 100 miles each way to buy a pair of M-T trucks.
 
Gregg Mahlkov.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 04, = 2003 11:52=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks=20 w/couplers

Okay, that makes all the sense in the world to = me. =20 Question though:  how well do the MT couplers work with the Atlas = Accumate couplers?  I seem to remember reading on this net - = maybe a=20 month or so ago - an email of someone who really despised the Accumate = couplers.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing = mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob = McKay=20
To: Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 04, = 2003 7:50=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks=20 w/couplers

Sounds like you = are referring to=20 the low profile wheel sets??  MT axles for MT trucks, Atlas = axles for=20 Atlas and other trucks.  Seems to work for me.  Only = because I got=20 tired of bending over to pick up MT wheelsets off the = floor.
boB
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2B44F.CDEA5DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 02:58:17 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QSWR7PfI9+cqRU6wLWwgkA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gregg, I had the same experience - the lid on the draft gear box popping off and the coupler and spring going everywhere - with the MT set which includes the pilot for a Life-Like GP-18. It didn't exactly make my day. Did a quick glue job on the other 'assembled' gearbox/coupler before it flew somewhere into the Atlantic Ocean. You'd think that if the thing was 'assembled' to start with, the people at the factory would have the sense to glue it together, 'cause why would anyone buy it in the first place if it wasn't? I have been thinking about just using the trucks that came with cars, and mounting the MT 1023 'assembled' couplers/gear boxes to the bodies, but I wonder how many springs, etc, I'd have to go chasing after. Any ideas, anyone? Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregg Mahlkov To: Zak ; Bob McKay ; prr-talk Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers Zak, The two coupler types work fairly well together. The Accumates from Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, causing derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at crosswise. A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel superglue to attach the pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works fine. I may try this on some Accumate trucks I have next time I need a pair of trucks, since I'd have to drive over 100 miles each way to buy a pair of M-T trucks. Gregg Mahlkov. --Boundary_(ID_QSWR7PfI9+cqRU6wLWwgkA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Gregg,
 
I had the same experience - the lid on the draft gear box popping off and the coupler and spring going everywhere - with the MT set which includes the pilot for a Life-Like GP-18.  It didn't exactly make my day.  Did a quick glue job on the other 'assembled' gearbox/coupler before it flew somewhere into the Atlantic Ocean.
 
You'd think that if the thing was 'assembled' to start with, the people at the factory would have the sense to glue it together, 'cause why would anyone buy it in the first place if it wasn't?
 
I have been thinking about just using the trucks that came with cars, and mounting the MT 1023 'assembled' couplers/gear boxes to the bodies, but I wonder how many springs, etc, I'd have to go chasing after.
 
Any ideas, anyone?
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MT trucks w/couplers

Zak,
 
The two coupler types work fairly well together. The Accumates from Atlas have a tendency to fall apart - the trip pins fall out, causing derailments, and the lid on the draft gear box pops off if looked at crosswise. A number of people on the Atlas N forum have used gel superglue to attach the pin and the lids and claim everyrthing works fine. I may try this on some Accumate trucks I have next time I need a pair of trucks, since I'd have to drive over 100 miles each way to buy a pair of M-T trucks.
 
Gregg Mahlkov.
 
--Boundary_(ID_QSWR7PfI9+cqRU6wLWwgkA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 08:15:50 -0500 Claus, I like Microscale Loco Grimy black. But that's just my opinion. I think from the rest of the group the correct color out of the shops is just black, Hope this helps Sam Vastano >From: "Claus Schlund" >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] paint the drivers >Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:50:37 -0800 > >Hi, > >I'd like to paint the drivers on several of my PRR >steam locos - that is to say, the axle, spokes, and tire sides >of the drivers. > >Can anyone suggest a suitable color? > > - Claus > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. croscale _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:34:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Sam, Claus, Actually the drivers faces should be DGLE. Claus, I wouldn't recommend painting the axles. Especially in N Scale the oils will probably gum up the paint after awhile. I tape off the axles and any gear with masking tape prior to painting. I then go back afterwards and clean the tire treads off.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:58:17 -0500 List, I believe Claus means painting the axle ENDS, which are unpainted metal on most N scale locomotives. I haven't approached this either yet, being afraid to muck up the current collecting abilities of the drivers. Am wondering about the use of PBL's Neolube for rods and axle ends as well as outside of tires. Paint is too likely to chip in these locations. Anyone tried Neolube in N scale? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Sam Vastano" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers > Sam, Claus, > > Actually the drivers faces should be DGLE. Claus, I wouldn't > recommend painting the axles. Especially in N Scale the oils will > probably gum up the paint after awhile. I tape off the axles and any > gear with masking tape prior to painting. I then go back afterwards and > clean the tire treads off.....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:47:03 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers Hi, > I believe Claus means painting the axle ENDS, which are unpainted metal on > most N scale locomotives. Correct. > I haven't approached this either yet, being afraid to muck up the current > collecting abilities of the drivers. Am wondering about the use of PBL's > Neolube for rods and axle ends as well as outside of tires. Paint is too > likely to chip in these locations. Anyone tried Neolube in N scale? Chipped factory paint is one of the reasons I'm wanting to do this. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:20:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers --part1_7a.34efdf08.2b49d17c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_7a.34efdf08.2b49d17c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_7a.34efdf08.2b49d17c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:06:40 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] paint the drivers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Zrp6gy5L7/7DEr1xYOLK5A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As Ray quoted, the publication put out by the Penn. Res. and Info Assoc, predecessor to the PRRTHS stated what colors to paint the different parts on PRR Steam. Personally, I paint the frame, trucks, and wheels Black. Tape the tire part of the wheel with masking tape. If you want a picture, let me know. I took a few when I painted my last locomotive. Photos are low resolution and won't take long downloading on a 56K. Contact me off list. Greg -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RBurg74133@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 1:21 PM To: mahlkov@gtcom.net Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --Boundary_(ID_Zrp6gy5L7/7DEr1xYOLK5A) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
As Ray quoted, the publication put out by the Penn. Res. and Info Assoc, predecessor to the PRRTHS stated what colors to paint the different parts on PRR Steam.  Personally, I paint the frame, trucks, and wheels Black.  Tape the tire part of the wheel with masking tape.  If you want a picture, let me know.  I took a few when I painted my last locomotive.  Photos are low resolution and won't take long downloading on a 56K.
 
Contact me off list.

Greg
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RBurg74133@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 1:21 PM
To: mahlkov@gtcom.net
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] paint the drivers

The special publication of the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association No. 1, indicates that dark green and black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frames. As of October 8, 1929.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years
--Boundary_(ID_Zrp6gy5L7/7DEr1xYOLK5A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 With Disk Drivers Progress Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:52:03 -0500 Group, For anyone that is interested on my progress. He is the link of my latest progress. Might be a while for more progress. I am back to school on Tuesday! http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?Page=Last Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:22:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Microtrains couplers & trucks. --part1_182.14b1e2b3.2b4a4261_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro Trains trucks and couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive? Al Guckes Chapel Hill, North Carolina. --part1_182.14b1e2b3.2b4a4261_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro Trains trucks and couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive?

Al Guckes
Chapel Hill, North Carolina. --part1_182.14b1e2b3.2b4a4261_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:11:14 +0000 A couple of comments. 1. The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built. 2. What did Chester make. Well very close to Chester was Eddystone if I am not mistaken home to a little loccomotive works dear to all of us PRR aficianados. Also Sun ship had a ship building facility there and some really heavy industry although no steel mills that I am aware of. By the early 60's when I was in high school and having to play football at Chester we had to leave a manager in the locker room to be sure everything was still there after the game and you left your helmet on when you went to the locker room at the half and end of the game so when they spit on you it avoided you as much as possible > In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net > writes: > > > Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider > > modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan, > > confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World > > Takes." (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest, > > "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Or to the east, "Lloyds of > > Linden.") A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version > > is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses." > > > > John Bobsin > > Hi John and others, > > The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer > exists. I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester. "I saw a sign > that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?" His > reply was "Toilet paper." The Scott Paper Company was there and, > unfortunately, Chester has seen better days. However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) > Station has been restored recently. > > Regards, > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? I was poking around at the Penna. Dept. of State web site. Put "Wheeling Coal Railroad" into the corporation name search engine and got back a record saying that it had been incorporated in 1906, merged into "PennDel Company (Del. Corp.)" 31 Dec. 1954. If you're wondering, the WCRR was a PRR-sponsored road intended to build from Wheeling to Marianna, Pa. It's not clear to me why PRR wanted a to build railroad to Marianna, when they already had one and had previously started and suspended work on another. That name PennDel seems vaguely familiar, but I can't place it. Was it perhaps a PRR-owned holding company? What else did it hold? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Microtrains couplers & trucks. Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:05:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B50E.F71F7A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Cause they haven't figured out how to send them through the 'phone line = yet, Al. You can order them instantly, but you still have to wait on UPS = or USPS! Also, shipping costs more than the trucks if that's all you = need! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ALGUCKES@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: [PRR] Microtrains couplers & trucks. First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro Trains trucks and = couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive? Al Guckes Chapel Hill, North Carolina.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B50E.F71F7A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Cause they haven't figured out how to send them = through the=20 'phone line yet, Al. You can order them instantly, but you = still have=20 to wait on UPS or USPS! Also, shipping costs more than the trucks if = that's all=20 you need!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ALGUCKES@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 = 9:22=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Microtrains = couplers &=20 trucks.

First message from a new subscriber. Aren't Micro = Trains=20 trucks and couplers readily avialable on the Web. Why drive?

Al = Guckes
Chapel Hill, North Carolina. = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2B50E.F71F7A00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:14:19 -0500 Bob, I remember the name as one of many the PRR had, but I thought that it was used for non-railroad subsidiaries. For example, Manor Real Estate was the main PRR owner of non-railroad related land, but there were at least three other companies used by the Pennsy to buy and sell real estate. All these "shell" subsidiaries were great for making top executive's wives members of their boards! But it did mean PRR could assemble land for a new customer without driving up real estate prices, by buying each tract under a different name! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:44 PM Subject: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? > I was poking around at the Penna. Dept. of State web site. Put > "Wheeling Coal Railroad" into the corporation name search engine and > got back a record saying that it had been incorporated in 1906, > merged into "PennDel Company (Del. Corp.)" 31 Dec. 1954. > > If you're wondering, the WCRR was a PRR-sponsored road intended to > build from Wheeling to Marianna, Pa. It's not clear to me why PRR > wanted a to build railroad to Marianna, when they already had one and > had previously started and suspended work on another. > > That name PennDel seems vaguely familiar, but I can't place it. Was > it perhaps a PRR-owned holding company? What else did it hold? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:26:12 -0500 Chester also made Ford Cars, Reynolds Wire and Cable, and a pelethora of heavy industry that supported Sun Ship and Baldwin. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? > A couple of comments. > 1. The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge > converted when the stone arch bridge was built. > 2. What did Chester make. Well very close to Chester was Eddystone if I am > not mistaken home to a little loccomotive works dear to all of us PRR > aficianados. Also Sun ship had a ship building facility there and some really > heavy industry although no steel mills that I am aware of. By the early 60's > when I was in high school and having to play football at Chester we had to > leave a manager in the locker room to be sure everything was still there > after the game and you left your helmet on when you went to the locker room at > the half and end of the game so when they spit on you it avoided you as much > as possible > > In a message dated 1/4/03 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net > > writes: > > > > > Anyway if you model the Trenton bridge, you should consider > > > modeling the upstream highway bridge, with the famous slogan, > > > confined to the Jersey side spans, "Trenton Makes -- The World > > > Takes." (Further west/south, I always preferred the more modest, > > > "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Or to the east, "Lloyds of > > > Linden.") A proper Trentonian once told me that the local version > > > is, "Trenton Uses what the World Refuses." > > > > > > John Bobsin > > > > Hi John and others, > > > > The Chester sign you mention was visible from the railroad and no longer > > exists. I once asked a fellow coworker who lived in Chester. "I saw a sign > > that says 'What Chester makes makes Chester'. What does Chester make?" His > > reply was "Toilet paper." The Scott Paper Company was there and, > > unfortunately, Chester has seen better days. However, the 1903 PRR (PB&W) > > Station has been restored recently. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:16:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Battery Car --part1_164.19a3ca3e.2b4a6b37_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Santa brought me a Red Caboose, stock number RC-7082-1, battery car. Q: What were these cars used for? As it is painted gray, I am assuming some form of maintenance work. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_164.19a3ca3e.2b4a6b37_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Santa brought me a Red Caboose, stock number RC-7082-1, battery car. 

Q:  What were these cars used for?  As it is painted gray,  I am assuming some form of maintenance work.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_164.19a3ca3e.2b4a6b37_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Reweigh locations Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:48:05 -0500 Does anyone have a list of Pennsy reweigh locations. My understanding is they are the letter P followed by a number. I am looking to reference the numbers to a location, Altoona, Erie, Enola, etc. Thanks Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 02:13:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Battery Car I believe moving batteries for passenger cars from Altoona to other locations. Could also be used to move diesel loco batteries. ---------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:36:07 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Reweigh locations Brian and list, I am not sure if all of the paint locations were reweigh locations as well. I do have the repaint locations as follows: Hope this helps, Bill P-2 Greenville Piers Westbound P-50 Enola P-57 Altoona P-61 South Altoona Foundry P-62 Hollidaysburg Eastbound P-63 Hollidaysburg Westbound P-83 Edge Moor, Del. North P-90 Cape Charles, Va. P-129 Northumberland, Pa. Eastward Yard P-130 Northumberland, Pa. Westward Yard P-133 Renovo, Pa. P-171 Park, Pa. P-203 Pitcairn, Pa. North Hump P-273 Mingo Junction, Oh. P-283 Ebenezer, NY. P-301 Olean, NY. P-314 Erie, Pa. (out of service by 11/23) P-380 Akron, Oh. P-441 Ft. Wayne, Ind. Car Shop P-475 Logansport, Ind. Yard "A" Eastbound P-545 Detroit, Mi. Ecorse Yard (Lincoln Yard) P-630 Columbus, Oh. Westbound P-708 Terre Haute, Ind. Easy Yard P-712 Terre Haute, Ind. New Shop P-718 Rose Lake, Ill Eastbound P-752 Indianapolis, Ind. East Yard Pennsylvania Eastern Region (P1-P199) P2 = Greenville Piers NJ P18 = Camden NJ P50 = Enola Yard PA + P54 = Martinsburg WV P57 = Altoona PA + P62 = Holidaysburg PA + P64 = Tyrone PA P81 = Thurlow MD P82 = Lenni Yard PA P90 = Cape Charles VA + P129 = Northumberland PA P131 = Williamsport PA P133 = Renovo PA + P134 = Southport NY Central Region (P200-P399) P205 = Pitcairn PA + P222 = Peterson PA P243 = Shire Oaks PA P273 = Mingo Jct. OH P301 = Glean NY P304 = Venango PA P314 = Erie PA P330 = New Castle PA + P341 = Conway PA P364 = Cleveland OH + Northwestern Region (P400-P599) P441 = Ft. Wayne Car Shop + P545 = Ecorse Yard (Detroit) MI Southwestern Region (P600-P799) P630 = Columbus OH P632 = Columbus, OH Car Shop + P658 = Cincinnati OH P708 = Terre Haute IN + P712 = Terre Haute. IN Car Shop + P732 = Jeffersonville IN P752 = Indianapolis IN + ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:36:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations Brian and list, I am not sure if all of the paint locations were reweigh locations as well. I do have the repaint locations as follows: Hope this helps, Bill P-2 Greenville Piers Westbound P-50 Enola P-57 Altoona P-61 South Altoona Foundry P-62 Hollidaysburg Eastbound P-63 Hollidaysburg Westbound P-83 Edge Moor, Del. North P-90 Cape Charles, Va. P-129 Northumberland, Pa. Eastward Yard P-130 Northumberland, Pa. Westward Yard P-133 Renovo, Pa. P-171 Park, Pa. P-203 Pitcairn, Pa. North Hump P-273 Mingo Junction, Oh. P-283 Ebenezer, NY. P-301 Olean, NY. P-314 Erie, Pa. (out of service by 11/23) P-380 Akron, Oh. P-441 Ft. Wayne, Ind. Car Shop P-475 Logansport, Ind. Yard "A" Eastbound P-545 Detroit, Mi. Ecorse Yard (Lincoln Yard) P-630 Columbus, Oh. Westbound P-708 Terre Haute, Ind. Easy Yard P-712 Terre Haute, Ind. New Shop P-718 Rose Lake, Ill Eastbound P-752 Indianapolis, Ind. East Yard Pennsylvania Eastern Region (P1-P199) P2 = Greenville Piers NJ P18 = Camden NJ P50 = Enola Yard PA + P54 = Martinsburg WV P57 = Altoona PA + P62 = Holidaysburg PA + P64 = Tyrone PA P81 = Thurlow MD P82 = Lenni Yard PA P90 = Cape Charles VA + P129 = Northumberland PA P131 = Williamsport PA P133 = Renovo PA + P134 = Southport NY Central Region (P200-P399) P205 = Pitcairn PA + P222 = Peterson PA P243 = Shire Oaks PA P273 = Mingo Jct. OH P301 = Glean NY P304 = Venango PA P314 = Erie PA P330 = New Castle PA + P341 = Conway PA P364 = Cleveland OH + Northwestern Region (P400-P599) P441 = Ft. Wayne Car Shop + P545 = Ecorse Yard (Detroit) MI Southwestern Region (P600-P799) P630 = Columbus OH P632 = Columbus, OH Car Shop + P658 = Cincinnati OH P708 = Terre Haute IN + P712 = Terre Haute. IN Car Shop + P732 = Jeffersonville IN P752 = Indianapolis IN + "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:01:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? ndbprr@att.net wrote: "The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built." Hmm, this is interesting; when did this happen? I just checked a map of Trenton, and if the railroad followed the alignment of the Trenton Makes bridge, it must've had quite a different right of way particularly on the Pennsylvania side; the bridge seems to diverge substantially from the current railroad route headed west. Also note that to my recollection the "Trenton Makes" bridge is now the second bridge upstream from the PRR bridge; the new Route 1 "toll bridge" now intervenes, making it harder to see the famous sign from passing trains. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:32:27 -0500 There is a list of scales and their codes in the CT1000. The scales section is on my website at: http://prr.railfan.net/lists/track_scales_1923.html Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:48 AM > To: PRR Fax > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations > > > Does anyone have a list of Pennsy reweigh locations. My understanding is > they are the letter P followed by a number. I am looking to reference the > numbers to a location, Altoona, Erie, Enola, etc. Thanks > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information > While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:11:11 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Very wrong. You can't miss that sign, unless you have the presently used Rt. 1 bridge bumper to bumper with tractor trailers, or trailer vans-whatever terminology you prefer to use! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:01 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? ndbprr@att.net wrote: "The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built." Hmm, this is interesting; when did this happen? I just checked a map of Trenton, and if the railroad followed the alignment of the Trenton Makes bridge, it must've had quite a different right of way particularly on the Pennsylvania side; the bridge seems to diverge substantially from the current railroad route headed west. Also note that to my recollection the "Trenton Makes" bridge is now the second bridge upstream from the PRR bridge; the new Route 1 "toll bridge" now intervenes, making it harder to see the famous sign from passing trains. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] Engine number 7298 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:34:17 -0600 Greetings.. I would appreciate learning the class of an old Pennsylvania Lines engine number.7298. Also, are there any photos of this engine on line? My photo was taken in the winter time and only two drivers are visible through the steam. Thanks, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:10:06 +0000 E. P. Alexander say's that in his book on the PRR written in the late 40's. > Very wrong. You can't miss that sign, unless you have the presently used > Rt. 1 bridge bumper to bumper with tractor trailers, or trailer > vans-whatever terminology you prefer to use! > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > bobsin@nac.net > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:01 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? > > > ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > "The road bridge over the river at Trenton is the original railroad > bridge converted when the stone arch bridge was built." > > Hmm, this is interesting; when did this happen? I just checked a > map of Trenton, and if the railroad followed the alignment of the > Trenton Makes bridge, it must've had quite a different right of way > particularly on the Pennsylvania side; the bridge seems to diverge > substantially from the current railroad route headed west. Also > note that to my recollection the "Trenton Makes" bridge is now the > second bridge upstream from the PRR bridge; the new Route 1 "toll > bridge" now intervenes, making it harder to see the famous sign > from passing trains. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:27:59 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Battery Car In a message dated 1/6/2003 2:13:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, KEMACPRR writes: > > > I believe moving batteries for passenger cars from Altoona to other > locations. Could also be used to move diesel loco batteries. ---------- Ken > McCorry > Also for moving batteries for signals from Altoona to division MOW centers. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:31:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Among other things, PennDel Co. owned the Delmarva Division of the PRR. This was sold in 1981 to the Accomac Northampton Transportation District Commission, an arm of the two County governments that owns what is now the Eastern Shore Railroad. A copy of the plats --really old valuation drawings-- are in the Northampton County Courthouse as part of the deed and plat books. [Also home of the oldest continuous court records in the New World dating from 1628!] Jim McDaniel, not quite that old in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:33:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Dave wrote: > > I also thought that's the way PRR cab signals work. If you > > went past a "clear" PL signal and the next is "approach", then the cab > > signals should change to "approach". Right? Then Al Buchan wrote: > No Dave that's not correct, you carry the aspect of the signal you have > gone by until to get to the next signal. If you go by a "clear" the cab > stays "clear" also until the next signal. If the next signal is > "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Al, with your permission, I would like to make your reply a bit more specific. Please amplify further. I would put the cab signal rule as follows: The cab signal shows the aspect the signal you have gone by _would_ show were your train not there. The meaning of the detail I've added is probably not evident, so I will provide an example. However, when having trouble remembering it, imagine it this way: the cab signal is the equivalent of the engineer sticking out his hand, ripping the wayside signal out of the ground, and carrying it with him all the way to the next signal, with the signal all the while showing an aspect appropriate to that portion of the block that remains in front of the locomotive. Reaching the next signal, the engineer drops the signals he's been holding and picks up the next one. The example: a train passes a Clear wayside signal. Cab signal shows (or changes to) Clear. Wayside signal changes to Stop and Proceed or Stop, but cab signal remains at Clear. I.e., the wayside signal has properly changed to protect the block, but the cab signal is not concerned with the portion of the block behind and including the train, only that portion ahead. I.e., if your train were not there, the wayside signal would still show Clear, so this is what the cab signal shows. So far so good. Now here's the situation Al's statement does not cover: Let's say you've passed that same clear signal and have a Clear cab signal. Soon thereafter, a train on a spur throws a switch and backs up onto the main into YOUR block. Or a rail breaks from the cold weather. Or the next signal is an interlocking signal that the block operator knocks down because of some emergency. _Were your train not there_, the signal you have passed would have changed to Stop-and-Proceed in the first 2 cases or to Approach in the 3rd case. Your cab signal will drop to match the appropriate aspect, and you have immediate warning. Without a cab signal, your first warning may not come for a mile or two when you finally see the signal (or train!) in front of you. As to knowing the aspect of the signal in front of you: you MIGHT know this from you cab signal, if the variables of the situation are sufficiently constrained. However, you cannot count on this. A caveat and an exception: Caveat: cab signals have a minimalist set of aspects; wayside signals have more. Thus, your cab signal aspect may not be _identical_ to the aspect of the wayside signal you passed. E.g. REstricting on a cab signal corresponded to Stop, Stop-and-Proceed, and Restricting (at least) on wayside signals. The precise relationships areshown in the PRR rulebook (if you don't have one, a web version is on my site). Exception: this is the one I can think of right now. Probably there are more. In advance of interlocking signals there were "code change points" where the cab signal would drop from Approach to Restricting. After passing such a code change point, the rule as I wrote it above does not work. Hope this helps. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:35:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Gang, I have been contacted by a company interested in entering the HO scale US brass market. Are there any PRR cabins that you think need to be done/redone in brass (super detailed, expensive...)? Don't tell me the N8, since it is coming from Rail Classics, hopefully. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:41:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine number 7298 Don, Loco Number 7298 was an H4 Class 2-8-0. Built late 1890's thru 1901. Pennsy Power says Radial Stay Firebox. I assume it looked much like the H3 but without Belpaire.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:45:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Bruce, I really think Cabin Cars have been beat to death. Geez, this company really want to do another? If so how about the X-23 Box Car converted to Cabin or possibly an odd ball PlyWood N6b.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:54:10 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Bob, > > I remember the name as one of many the PRR had, but I thought that > it was > used for non-railroad subsidiaries. Well, the Wheeling Coal RR may have counted as non-railroad by 1954. As I understand it, it was going to run along the washington-greene County line in SW Pa. SO far as I know, it was projected but nothing was ever graded (although there is a state road along part of the route which looks suspiciously straight and level). Perhaps there had been some land purchased? > For example, Manor Real Estate > was the > main PRR owner of non-railroad related land, I think I read somewhere that Manor owned coal lands in the area in question. Perhaps PennDel was aconvenient place to stash additional holdings? See your remark below. but there were at > least three > other companies used by the Pennsy to buy and sell real estate. > ...it did mean PRR could assemble land for a new > customer without driving up real estate prices, by buying each > tract under a different name! My personal suspicion is that the WCRR was intended as a stopper, to prevent B&O from building into the SW Pa. coal fields. I seem to recall that under Pa. law railroad can map out a route and thereby reserve that route for a few years without doing anything more than stating an intention to do the deed. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:04:09 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > Among other things, PennDel Co. owned the Delmarva Division of the > PRR. Hm. That's interesting. As I was looking up the valuation report on the NYP&N, I thought the relation to the PRR wasn't very clear. Perhaps PennDel was the vehicle by which PRR owned NYP&N? When did PennDel come into being, and when did it acquire the NYP&N? (The Pa Dept of State site is no help, as PennDel was a Delaware corporation.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:19:16 -0500 > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob said, " My personal suspicion is that the WCRR was intended as a stopper, to prevent B&O from building into the SW Pa. coal fields. I seem to recall that under Pa. law railroad can map out a route and thereby reserve that route for a few years without doing anything more than stating an intention to do the deed." Yup, PRR and B&O were REAL good at doing this to one another. When GM built the plant at Lordstown, PRR bought a ten foot wide strip of land for a mile along the highway between the B&O and the plant property from several farmers to keep the B&O out. But, GM said "bad boy!" and PRR had to sell the land to the B&O. When GM said "jump" the rr's said "how high?". OTOH, B&O owned the sidewalk in Baltimore between PRR tracks in the street and several industries. Gregg Mahlkov > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:13:57 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations --- Rob Schoenberg wrote: > There is a list of scales and their codes in the CT1000. > The scales section is on my website at: > http://prr.railfan.net/lists/track_scales_1923.html There's another list at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Scales/ That one has data from 1923, 1918, and 1900 CT1000's. Note that the scheme for the marks was different in 1900. Note also that the 1945 CT1000 (next one after 1923) didn't include that information. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian J Carlson [mailto:brian@net.bluemoon.net] > > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:48 AM > > To: PRR Fax > > Cc: PRR Talk > > Subject: [PRR-FAX] Reweigh locations > > > > > > Does anyone have a list of Pennsy reweigh locations. My > > understanding is they are the letter P followed by a number. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:24:47 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals - Was TrainSim signals, Nee: PRR Middle Division Re: Mark's cab signal comments The reverse situation could apply also when an passing an "Approach" signal and your carrying an "Approach" cab signal and the conditions ahead improve where you would now get a "Clear" on the cab. The situations you cover are addressed primarily in Rules 553-558. I would probably modify it to say. You carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until you get to the next signal, unless conditions within the block change. If you go by a "clear" the cab stays "clear" until the next signal, unless conditions in the block change. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN changes to "approach." Note: When approaching a signal where a code change point has been installed to the rear of the signal, then the cab signal will change to conform with the wayside at that code change point prior to passing the wayside. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division Just a few additional comments on cab signals: The Long Island Rail Road's cab signals are/were compatible with the PRR's system; one interesting difference I recall, whereas the "clear" indication on the PRR was a position-light aspect (i.e., three vertical lights) I believe the LIRR's showed the letters, "MAS,' in green. I imagine this stood for "maximum allowable speed." When were cab signals first used on PRR or its subsidiaries, BTW? I believe the LIRR either installed or expanded its system after the two 1950 wrecks (Richmond Hill and Rockville Centre), or possibly added the automatic train stop feature at that time. And more recently, note that wayside block signals have been eliminated between Hudson and New York; movement is by cab signals alone. Fixed signals remain at interlockings (which with the installation of Swift a few years ago and now several interlockings at the new NJT Secaucus Transfer station aka Allied Junction, are now quite a few actually). And a bit off-topic, there is a fixed signal sometimes seen (not sure if there is an example on ex-PRR lines), a post with the letters "DIB." I think you find this leaving a passenger station which is also in the approach block to an interlocking; it stands for "Delayed in Block" and is a reminder to the engineman to run at slower speed until the next fixed signal. I think for some reason it only applies to push-pull trains; but the relevance here is it's not needed if cab signals are in service. The DIB signal was mandated after the MARC/Amtrak wreck several years ago, in which apparently the MARC engineer made a station stop and forget he was governed by the preceding Approach signal. Near here we had a DIB signal installed, then removed a year or so later (cab signals had then been installed). This is not on a PRR line. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TrainSim signals Was: PRR Middle Division On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Just a few additional comments on cab signals: > > The Long Island Rail Road's cab signals are/were compatible with > the PRR's system; one interesting difference I recall, whereas the > "clear" indication on the PRR was a position-light aspect (i.e., > three vertical lights) I believe the LIRR's showed the letters, "MAS,' > in green. I imagine this stood for "maximum allowable speed." > > When were cab signals first used on PRR or its subsidiaries, > BTW? I believe the LIRR either installed or expanded its system Look at http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Book_Errata_Pennsy_P5.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Favorite PRR models Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:29:39 -0500 Gregg: I have a Sony "Mavica" digital camera that is super easy to use. I got it on sale at Staples for under $200.00. See my reply from around November, to Gary Mitner about close up photography in this chat list. Also see the January MR "tips" for close up photos from any digital camera. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Claus Schlund" Cc: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Favorite PRR models > Claus and list, > > Yes, there are a few "gotchas" on the A5. First, I left everything below the > runningboards from the Rivarossi casting, as well as the front wall of the > cab from the Rivarossi casting. This, like the B6sb, is a metal casting. The > B6 boiler was also cut above the running board and in front of the cab and > then cut into three pieces to make the A5 boiler. A single lung air pump was > turned from brass as were various other details. Tomorrow I may try a > picture with the same lousy camera. > > BTW, while we're discussing cameras. Any suggestions for a good digital > camera around 200 bucks discount that will take good closeup pictures and > doesn't have "bells & whistles" I don't want like "videos". It just has to > download to a USB port. Claus, you can get a USB upgrade for Windows 95 > according to the USB card I installed in my computer. You might check with > Cyberguys at 1-800-892-1010 in Ranch Cucamonga. That's where I bought my > card over the internet. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > BTW, took a better pix and will send separate. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Claus Schlund" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:50 PM > Subject: Favorite PRR models > > > > Hey Gregg, > > > > > The PRR A5 I modified from a Rivarossi 0-4-0 > > > using a Minitrix 0-6-0 boiler and 4-6-2 cab > > > > This one sounds pretty cool! > > > > Were there any special "gotchas" to watch for? > > > > While I've not done so yet, I believe the trucks & > > underframe from the recently-released KATO caboose should be > > good to use in tenders for small steam such as this, since > > it provides all-wheel pickup. > > > > - Claus > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:37:08 -0500 Bruce: How about any of the N6 series? They haven't been done in some time. (I don't believe) Just a side note. I have never been a fan of spending brass type money on cabins, or any freight car for that matter. (especially when you can get some pretty nice plastic at very low prices) I have one, and one only, brass freight car which is a N5C. After Bowser came out with their plastic cabins, I really can't see why I would want anymore cabins in brass. When they're on the layout during a session, I just don't notice the difference. That's just an opinion, not to say that the rule of, "To each his own", doesn't apply. Being an owner of a large fleet of brass locomotives, I can certainly appreciate the value and quality of brass, but a $100.00 cabin,....no way! All that being said, I wish the manufacturer in question good luck. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 12:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass > Gang, > > I have been contacted by a company interested in entering the HO scale US > brass market. Are there any PRR cabins that you think need to be > done/redone in brass (super detailed, expensive...)? Don't tell me the > N8, since it is coming from Rail Classics, hopefully. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:53:44 -0500 I echo Larry's sentiments about brass cabin cars. I have one brass cabin, an N6. It doesn't run anywhere because of the weight, I have a problem with that much weight on the tail end of a train. The rest of the cars have to be "overweight" to keep from pulling them off on a tight, uphill curve when hauling a long freight. I would rather see (and buy) something unusual, such as a speeder or a delicate hand car etc. That would make a good eye-catching detail. Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals - Was TrainSim signals, Nee: PRR Middle Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:00:18 +0000 The LIRR installed their ASC or Automatic Speed Control in the 50s after those two wrecks mentioned in a previous reply. Instead of the 4 speed PRR/US&S system, ASC has several more aspects, which are different depending on the type of equipment you are in (same track codes, different speed limits). MU equiptment displays a 15, 30, 40, 60, 70 and 80 while the DE/DM equiptment (including the cab cars) have a 15, 30, 40, 55, 65 and 80. The LIRR just went nuts for Cab Signaling w/o wayside atomatic signals and the only line w/ Waysides is the Main Line between HAROLD and JAY. Other new installations off PRR style CSS w/o Waysides have been on the former Conrail Fort Wayne Line, Morristown Line, Cleveland Line and Boston Line (B&A), all of the Metro North main lines, the NJT extension to Hackettstown, the Amtrak Shore Line b/t New Haven and Boston and the NEC between HUDSON and A. The ability of cab signals to upgrade themselves between blocks gives sort of a partial moving block effect without the added cost. Also, on cab signaled lines there is a cab signal break about 1500 feet in advance of every home signal so that a train on approach will get a restricting as it gets close to the stop signal. > >The reverse situation could apply also when an passing an "Approach" >signal and your carrying an "Approach" cab signal and the conditions >ahead improve where you would now get a "Clear" on the cab. The >situations you cover are addressed primarily in Rules 553-558. > >I would probably modify it to say. > >You carry the aspect of the signal you have gone by until you get to the >next signal, unless conditions within the block change. If you go by a >"clear" the cab stays "clear" until the next signal, unless conditions >in the block change. If the next signal is "approach" the cab THEN >changes to "approach." Note: When approaching a signal where a code >change point has been installed to the rear of the signal, then the cab >signal will change to conform with the wayside at that code change point >prior to passing the wayside. > >Al > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. List, Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost you to place on the layout. Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b will be too...... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:38:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hello Gary...... Are you guys talking about the new Rail Classics N8 cabin cars? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:07:43 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B5E0.CCEA3CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks, This foray seems perhaps a response to the success Overland and others have had in producing expensive (and beautiful) cabooses for many roads (ever see OMI's B&O I-15?). The diff for us PRR guys is that we have many cabins available in plastic, and some older (and cheaper ones) in brass that can be had for considerably less than $200. Granted, a state-of-the-art custom-painted N8 may be too much for some people to resist, given no pocketbook limitations. But I agree that the vast majority of us will have to pass. However, the market for expensive brass PRR items continues. The Railworks and Rail Classics brass flats are astounding. These are cars that will NEVER be offered in any other form, due to their structural complexity and lack of any other reasonable options. They also sell fairly well, based on the number that are no longer available! And BTW, a friend that stopped in at Bowser the other day was told that they will NOT produce the N8, despite the rumors to the contrary. I cannot state this as fact, only as the opinion of some folks that work there. Their reasoning is that the N5 did not sell that well; YOU may need a couple dozen X31's or H21,s but honestly how many N8's will you really buy, and the market continues to be for numerous freight (or other) prototypes. Just so you don't get your hopes too far up! Have a great week! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B5E0.CCEA3CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars.

Folks, This foray seems perhaps a response to the = success Overland and others have had in producing expensive (and = beautiful) cabooses for many roads (ever see OMI's B&O = I-15?).  The diff for us PRR guys is that we have many cabins = available in plastic, and some older (and cheaper ones) in brass that = can be had for considerably less than $200.  Granted, a = state-of-the-art custom-painted N8 may be too much for some people to = resist, given no pocketbook limitations.  But I agree that the = vast majority of us will have to pass.

        However, = the market for expensive brass PRR items continues.  The Railworks = and Rail Classics brass flats are astounding.  These are cars that = will NEVER be offered in any other form, due to their structural = complexity and lack of any other reasonable options.  They also = sell fairly well, based on the number that are no longer = available! 

        And BTW, a = friend that stopped in at Bowser the other day was told that they will = NOT produce the N8, despite the rumors to the contrary.  I cannot = state this as fact, only as the opinion of some folks that work = there.  Their reasoning is that the N5 did not sell that = well;  YOU may need a couple dozen X31's or H21,s but honestly how = many N8's will you really buy, and the market continues to be for = numerous freight (or other) prototypes.  Just so you don't get = your hopes too far up!

Have a great week!
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B5E0.CCEA3CC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. From: William Ayers List, I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > List, > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > you to place on the layout. > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:54:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:18:07 -0500 Howdy Guys: I too would echo Dave's reply! Modeling late PRR - we have plenty of plastic SD45, SD40, SD35, GP35, C628, C630, C425 and so on. All sorts of great plastic revenue and non-revenue rolling stock But no plastic N8s. - just like no plastic E44s!!? On my upcoming Columbia area layout I'll need at least 10 cabins, I've got 3 plastic and 3 brass - looks like the other 4 will be brass too. Just a note - I would buy at least 10 plastic N8s - for anybody that's watching. And I would pay up to $50.00 per cabin - if production had to be in limited quantities - with the same quality of the current N5 - that's still $500 less then what the brass will cost! So maybe if the economics work out to a run of about 5000 units @ 50 per ea - would the $250,000 be enough to cover the cost? Next question would be - can 5000 N8s be sold? Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:44:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Fwd: CT 353 assistance request I received the following from Jim Foley. He says he once was signed up for PRR-talk but had to drop out as the traffic was too much for his company e-mail. If you can help him out, please respond to him directly or CC him on a reply to this group. > From: "Foley, Jim" > Subject: CT 353 > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:31:45 -0500 > > Bob > > I recently purchased on e-Bay a 1924 CT 353 Routing guide (the > "checkerboard > book"), which was the Classification Clerks Bible on PRR for > decades as I am > sure you are aware. > > "Checkerboard" page # A3/4 (Groupings 13-36) is missing, and I am > wondering > if you might know someone who has a 353 that would be willing to > make a full > size page copy (top half-bottom half) of both pages for me ?? > > Would greatly appreciate any assistance. > jim_foley@csx.com ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 00:49:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy Guys: > I too would echo Dave's reply! > Modeling late PRR - we have plenty of plastic SD45, SD40, SD35, GP35, C628, > C630, C425 and so on. Sure. And there's a HO P2K SD45 coming this year also. > But no plastic N8s. Isn't bowser tooling this one now? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:53:20 -0500 List: Regarding brass PRR passenger cars, I must say that I DO believe in buying these since so many have been available over the years and NOT available in plastic. Well, OK, the Rivarossi duplex, OBS, 10-6 and RPO not withstanding, (and let's not forget the BCW horse cars), but there are many more passenger car versions desired by fans of PRR Blue Ribbon trains. Now, Walthers has announced a smooth side Imperial class car, scheduled in March. If it's anything like the quality of their most recent Budd cars, we could be in for some real fun. My hopes are that Walthers continues to expand their passenger car line. BTW, Walthers has also promised this 4-4-2 in Golden State livery for us modelers that like to run through cars. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: William Ayers To: Gary Mittner ; Lewis J. Matt PhD Cc: ; PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > List, > > I must say that I also agree with the others who don't like to spend that > kind of money on a brass freight cars, or passenger for that matter. My only > one is a Railworks N6b that I found at a train show a couple years ago for > $135. For me, Bowser's cabins are just fine. The only reason I bought the > Railworks N6b is that I really screwed up a Gloor Craft N6b kit. I have not > had Lew Matt's experience with the weight problem, it trails 25 car trains > with no problem. I do have a 10 car brass Broadway Ltd that can only be > pulled with an ABA P2K E7s. I powered the B unit with a P2K A unit that the > train store gave me cheap since they could not sell it. This taught me the > brass car lesson at a high price, not to be repeated. > -- > Bill Ayers > Remembering the PRR in Crestline > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > > > > From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) > > To: lmatt@alltel.net (Lewis J. Matt PhD) > > Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) > > Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. > > > > List, > > Bruce mentioned that this company wants to produce "high end" > > brass Cabins. I too avoid high priced Cabins and Freight Cars which can > > be purchased at reasonable prices in Plastic. I own a handful of Brass > > Cabins (purchased before Bowser Stuff) and never paid over $80.00 (Pre > > Scale N8) . I thought that was high then. Has anyone seen the prices > > lately on newly released Cabooses? At $225.00 a shot, well, that makes > > no sense. I can just imagine what a new N6b or similar Cabin would cost > > you to place on the layout. > > Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O > > Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b > > will be too...... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > & > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:27:49 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Subject: Fw: [PRR] PennDel Co. a PRR subsidiary? Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:41:25 -0500 From: "edmund burbage" To: "James McDaniel" May I correct you, they sold PART of The Delmarva Division, not the whole thing. Lee Burbage He's correct: I should have said the Delmarva Division from Pocomoke City, MD [south of Cassatt] to Little Creek including the trackage to connect with NS, CSX, the Portsmouth Beltline, etc. across the waters. What was/is north of Pocomoke became PC and then Conrail and now NS. A number of the Delmarva branches were spun off into other short lines or abandoned from the early 80s onward. I don't know exactly how the PRR bought the NYP&N but PRR took control via a stock purchase in the late teens at a great premium to AJ Cassatt and Tom Scott who owned much of the "Nip & N." PRR began painting PRR on everything and operating it as the PRR in 1920. I don't know when PennDel took over but I suspect it was part of the Penn Central mess when many pieces of real estate were spun off. Jim McDaniel, corrected in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:40:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: Balamer real estate? Balamer has an odd system of land ownership --I owned a row house there in the early 80's. The building and the land under it are often NOT owned by the same person/entity. In the older sections of the city, there is a system of "ground rents" whereby one person owns the land, and another owns the building sitting on it. The building owner pays a "ground rent" to the land owner in perpetuity who fortunately doesn't have any say of control over what the building owner does with his building. The building and the ground have separate deeds and are bought and sold independently of each other. Jim McDaniel, ex-Baltomoron, now owning both land and building in Virginia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:05:09 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Mt. Union PRR station Hello, everyone, I'm looking for a plan or drawing of the PRR station at Mt. Union that was on the original PRR alignment through the middle of Mt. Union. This was the station that was also used by the East Broad Top and became the EBT station when the PRR switched to their newer elevated alignment in the early twentieth century. Any suggestions? TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:33:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Larry, >Bruce: > >How about any of the N6 series? They haven't been done in some time. (I >don't believe) Railworks did the N6 series, although some foiks question how accurately . There are still quite a few of these on the market too... >Just a side note. I have never been a fan of spending brass type money on >cabins, or any freight car for that matter. (especially when you can get >some pretty nice plastic at very low prices) I have one, and one only, >brass freight car which is a N5C. After Bowser came out with their plastic >cabins, I really can't see why I would want anymore cabins in brass. When >they're on the layout during a session, I just don't notice the difference. >That's just an opinion, not to say that the rule of, "To each his own", >doesn't apply. Being an owner of a large fleet of brass locomotives, I can >certainly appreciate the value and quality of brass, but a $100.00 >cabin,....no way! I have to agree, but I think these guys are mainly looking for collectors (and think $200-$300, or more...since some recent HO freight cars have been in that range) . Since my reply to their first contact, they have indicated that they would be willing to consider other classes of cars as well. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:20:34 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Re; Balamer real estate --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > Balamer has an odd system of land ownership --I owned a row house > there > in the early 80's. The building and the land under it are often > NOT > owned by the same person/entity. > > In the older sections of the city, there is a system of "ground > rents" > whereby one person owns the land, and another owns the building > sitting > on it. The building owner pays a "ground rent" to the land owner in > perpetuity who fortunately doesn't have any say of control over > what > the building owner does with his building. The building and the > ground > have separate deeds and are bought and sold independently of each > other. Does sound odd, but there are some gotcha's in Pennsylvania law also. I was told of a court case in Indiana County some years ago in which the owner of an orchard filed charges of theft against folks who had been picking fruit from his trees along a highway. The defense was that the fruit had been picked from branches which hung out over the fence separating the highway right-of-way from the orchard. The county judge ruled that while there was a well-established right to do that when another's trees hung over one's land, in this case the state, and therefore the public, did not own any land but only the right to pass along the road, that is, right of way. The state did not own a right to stand on the land to pick fruit or any other purpose not connected with passage along the road. This same consideration arises often when all that a railroad owns is right of way. The railroad might not then have a right to build a building on that land. Another one, and this can be a bear, is the separate ownership of surface rights and mineral rights. Under Pa. law, the owner of the minerals is not obliged to provide vertical support to the surface. That is, if the Acme Coal Mining Co. removes the coal from under your house which then sinks a couple feet into the ground, it's your problem, not theirs. This came to issue a couple years ago when a piece of I-70 in Washington County sank 3 feet one day. PennDoT said that they had been offered the coal under the highway but had declined to purchase on the ground that fixing the road, should it come to that, would be less expensive than buying the coal. It did come to that and, last I heard, the road had been repaired. The ICC valuation hearings got involved in debating whether money spent to obtain coal under railroad rights of way was an expenditure chargable to property owned for common-carrier purposes. I don't recall in detail, but I think the ICC was of the opinion that the market value of coal was not closely related to the value of coal in place and so disallowed the charge. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:24:26 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. "BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic." This model goes for $50. After the parts needed to super detail it, and the time to paint it, it is well worth it to pick up a F-38 from Rail Classics. Also, I the trucks side frames are styrene. I know someone who ran the hell out of Eastern Car Works trucks, only to have the axles wear through the truck frame. It all depends on how bad you are willing to part with your money. Bowser cabins are very nice. Carving off the grab irons, applying your own with a trainphone antenna, paint, windows, and weathering, you have a great model. Most of all, 95% of viewers can tell the difference between the Bowser and Brass if done with accuracy. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:38:32 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. "95% of viewers can tell the difference ..." sorry, meant to say 95% cannot tell the difference. You get the point. Furthermore, to my knowledge, the Bowser N8 is on its way. Good things come to those who wait. How long has it been since BLI promoted the M class? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:24 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. "BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic." This model goes for $50. After the parts needed to super detail it, and the time to paint it, it is well worth it to pick up a F-38 from Rail Classics. Also, I the trucks side frames are styrene. I know someone who ran the hell out of Eastern Car Works trucks, only to have the axles wear through the truck frame. It all depends on how bad you are willing to part with your money. Bowser cabins are very nice. Carving off the grab irons, applying your own with a trainphone antenna, paint, windows, and weathering, you have a great model. Most of all, 95% of viewers can tell the difference between the Bowser and Brass if done with accuracy. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 7:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Hey Guys....... I know how some of you feel about brass PRR cabin cars. Well I ordered three brass N8 cabins from Rail Classics. I could not resist. And most of all, they are worth it! I don't buy much brass since I model late Pennsy to Penn Central. 95% of the freight cars from that era are available in plastic. Most of the 2nd generation PRR diesels are available in plastic. BTW, the PRR F-38 is out in plastic. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:51:14 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B66C.FD708C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bruce and Larry, Given the success of the Railworks flats, and presumably some of the Rail Classics cars, it seems there is a market for some of these specialized freight cars (and I am sure, passenger), even at the costs incurred today. I would hope that someone might consider some unusual cars, perhaps with loads, that would find a market with those looking to fill a certain niche. The Railworks G41/G41a did very well, and are now extremely hard to find on the market. That'd be a nice car to consider. And maybe some of the other more unusual gons that folks have an interest in like the G32b with horizontal corrugations, or the G42 with corrugations and a removable roof? Those OMI G32c's sold well and are now hard to find... How about one of the gons with skids and covers in coil steel service? That'd be cool. There are also some more flats that haven't been done, like the F41 (no, it really is not like the Tichy/Walthers Commonwelath flats, trust me...). There's the F41a with PRR-specific bulkheads. There's also some hoppers that haven't been done, like the H35. And how about some of the boxcars that have never been done. The X38's, X46, X50, X51, etc. come to mind. I guess the list is endless! I have to say that I'd like to see any of the above in resin, too. It certainly doesn't matter to me what form they are in. Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B66C.FD708C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass

Bruce and Larry,
Given the success of the Railworks flats, and = presumably some of the Rail Classics cars, it seems there is a market = for some of these specialized freight cars (and I am sure, passenger), = even at the costs incurred today.

I would hope that someone might consider some unusual = cars, perhaps with loads, that would find a market with those looking = to fill a certain niche.

The Railworks G41/G41a did very well, and are now = extremely hard to find on the market.  That'd be a nice car to = consider.  And maybe some of the other more unusual gons that = folks have an interest in like the G32b with horizontal corrugations, = or the G42 with corrugations and a removable roof?  Those OMI = G32c's sold well and are now hard to find...  How about one of the = gons with skids and covers in coil steel service?  That'd be = cool.

There are also some more flats that haven't been = done, like the F41 (no, it really is not like the Tichy/Walthers = Commonwelath flats, trust me...).  There's the F41a with = PRR-specific bulkheads.

There's also some hoppers that haven't been done, = like the H35.
And how about some of the boxcars that have never = been done.  The X38's, X46, X50, X51, etc. come to mind.
I guess the list is endless!
I have to say that I'd like to see any of the above = in resin, too.  It certainly doesn't matter to me what form they = are in.

Elden


------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B66C.FD708C50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:59:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] brass cabin cars. --part1_128.1f9ae6d4.2b4c6165_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/7/2003 7:06:12 AM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes: > Now, > Walthers has announced a smooth side Imperial class car, scheduled in March. > If it's anything like the quality of their most recent Budd cars, we could > be in for some real fun. My hopes are that Walthers continues to expand > their passenger car line. BTW, Walthers has also promised this 4-4-2 in > Golden State livery for us modelers that like to run through cars. > As I have pointed out before the initial smoothside Imperial car shown at Milwaukee Trainfest was a 1938 version with skirts removed. The Sante Fe fluted side version had skirts and would be appropriate for the run-through sleeper pre-1954, but I am not sure how extensively the deskirted version of the 1938 smoothsides were used. A Walthers rep said the postwar versions might follow depending on the success of the prewar cars. Bob Zoeller --part1_128.1f9ae6d4.2b4c6165_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/7/2003 7:06:12 AM Central Standard Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes:


Now,
Walthers has announced a smooth side Imperial class car, scheduled in March.
If it's anything like the quality of their most recent Budd cars, we could
be in for some real fun.  My hopes are that Walthers continues to expand
their passenger car line.  BTW, Walthers has also promised this 4-4-2 in
Golden State livery for us modelers that like to run through cars.


As I have pointed out before the initial smoothside Imperial car shown at Milwaukee Trainfest was a 1938 version with skirts removed.  The Sante Fe fluted side version had skirts and would be appropriate for the run-through sleeper pre-1954, but I am not sure how extensively the deskirted version of the 1938 smoothsides were used.
A Walthers rep said the postwar versions might follow depending on the success of the prewar cars.

Bob Zoeller --part1_128.1f9ae6d4.2b4c6165_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 18:06:56 -0500 From: jamesfclay Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. Gary Minter said..... Larry, Pacific Mountain has the N6b planned. A Resin Kit. The B&O Cabooses they previously released were nice and I can imagine the N6b will be too...... Gary Gary Do you have any more details on when the Pacific Mountain N6b may be released. I checked their website, no mention of an N6b in their upcoming product announcements. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:44:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. James, I just checked their website out also. Looks like they changed a bit since I checked in last. I sent an email to Allan to see what the status is on the N6b. Will report back when I hear something. ...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cars Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:15:21 -0500

With the new cars coming out, I am having a tough time remembering which plastic passenger cars are accurate for the Pennsy and for what era. Could someone please list which plastic passenger cars are accurate for the Pennsy and for what era? This would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric Lauterbach
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:54:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Hello Elden, You brought up the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what the price was for those cars. I've been looking for a few. I understand that the cars pop up on ebay from time to time. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:58:08 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2B687.19C6BBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I have been in the = background off and on for quite some years now. I am wondering if there = are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there for HO scale? I = am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of timeframe. My = questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era and before = freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this timeframe) = and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make some well = detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2B687.19C6BBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
It has been awhile since I have posted = on this=20 list.  I have been in the background off and on for quite some = years=20 now.  I am wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on = this list=20 out there for HO scale?  I am contemplating a move back to HO and = this type=20 of timeframe.  My questions are where do you obtain proper early = WW-II era=20 and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this=20 timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make = some=20 well detailed models of steam?  Thank you for any inputs you=20 have.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2B687.19C6BBD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:47:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Greetings Jeremy, Well, leaving aside for the moment the subject of Bowser steam locos, you're pretty well set up for freight cars of WW2 and earlier times. Bowser has their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. Their covered hopper would be too new. Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars, everybody's 1937 AAR box car is obviously usable (PS1's are too new as well). Athearn has several tank cars and a nice series of twin hoppers, also a quad hopper of B&O prototype; Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and tank car; all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in their greatly improved line; Accurail has a nice wood reefer and single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; MDC has a decent gondola and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check the year. Very nice model in any event. Whew, that just popped off the top of my head, so I imagine a tour through the Bowser and Walthers catalogs, and a few recent mags could really get a good wish list together. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:16:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union PRR station --part1_188.13d4e37b.2b4cf205_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the building is still standing (and in use). If a trip to Mt Union is feasible, you could get the data you seek from "the source"... Chris Baker --part1_188.13d4e37b.2b4cf205_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the building is still standing (and in use).  If a trip to Mt Union is feasible, you could get the data you seek from "the source"...

Chris Baker --part1_188.13d4e37b.2b4cf205_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:19:23 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_058C_01C2B692.73876A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brassHi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a = boxcar which had not been done. In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad = Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications = to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_058C_01C2B692.73876A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass
Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a = boxcar which=20 had not been done.  In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model = Craftsman=20 James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications to the P2K 50 = foot=20 doubledoor boxcar to make the X38.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_058C_01C2B692.73876A10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:29:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union PRR station --part1_1b8.bf2b8cb.2b4cf518_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris. I think the building you are referring to is the former Freight Station. The Old Line Psgr. station is gone. Pat McKinney --part1_1b8.bf2b8cb.2b4cf518_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris.
           I think the building you are referring to is the former Freight Station. The Old Line Psgr. station is gone.

Pat McKinney --part1_1b8.bf2b8cb.2b4cf518_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:30:29 -0500 Actually the Tichy gondola is WW2 vintage. Jeremy may I suggest that you also join the steam era freight car group on Yahoo if you aren't already a member. I am including a website below ha may interest you also. http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers > Greetings Jeremy, > Well, leaving aside for the moment the subject of Bowser steam locos, you're > pretty well set up for freight cars of WW2 and earlier times. Bowser has > their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 > cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. Their covered hopper would > be too new. > Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars, everybody's 1937 AAR > box car is obviously usable (PS1's are too new as well). Athearn has several > tank cars and a nice series of twin hoppers, also a quad hopper of B&O > prototype; Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and > tank car; all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable > cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in > their greatly improved line; Accurail has a nice wood reefer and > single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn > and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill > gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; MDC has a decent gondola > and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous > wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check > the year. Very nice model in any event. > Whew, that just popped off the top of my head, so I imagine a tour through > the Bowser and Walthers catalogs, and a few recent mags could really get a > good wish list together. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:53:03 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) --part1_169.18d95ebf.2b4cfa9f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't realize that attachments were forbidden on the PRR e-mail list, so I have imported a text file directly into this e-mail: Manufacturer Name-Description of Car PRR Class Pullman Plan Era Used AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs POS21 plan 4133 1948 - 1968 PRR had only 2 of these for trains 28-29 AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs plan 3959 1920's - 50's? PRR had only one of these as of 1950. Model is poorly executed AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12S-1DR Sleeper plan 3410B 1920's - 50's? AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 8S-1DR-2C Sleeper plan 3979A 1920's - 60's? model is poorly executed AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106 plan 9008 1949 - 1968 AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12Dup Rmt-5DBR Slpr PS125A plan 4066 1938 - 1968 AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106B plan 9503 1949 - 1968 similar to PRR cars, model is based upon UP prototype AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 56-seat Chair Car P85A 1941 - 1968 PRR had only 3 of these for use on the Southerner (SOU RY) AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Baggage - Mail Car BM70N 1910 - 1968 model is a hybrid of several similar PRR cars Bachmann - Spectrum Baggage - Coach PB70 1910 - 1968 Bachmann - Spectrum Coach P70 (various) 1910 - 1968 Bachmann - Spectrum Diner D78C 1910 - 1968 Bachmann - Spectrum Business Car Z74D 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Coach P70 (various) 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Express B60 (various) 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Mail Car M70b 1910 - 1968 Bethlehem Car Works* (Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Coach PB70 1910 - 1968 Con-Cor 10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106B plan 9520 1948 - 1968 PRR had only one similar car (Silver Rapids) for transcontinental service in the California Zephyr. This is a poorly executed model Walthers 52-seat Chair Car P85eR 1947 - 1968 PRR owned 10 of these for service on the Silver Meteor (SAL Rwy) Walthers 1DR,29-seat Parlor PP85 1952 - 1968 PRR had 16 of these for service on the Congressionals and Senators Walthers Refrig Expr Car R50B Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car R50B Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car R7 *These manufacturers'products are plastic kits. All others are ready-to-run. --part1_169.18d95ebf.2b4cfa9f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't realize that attachments were forbidden on the PRR e-mail list, so I have imported a text file directly into this e-mail:

Manufacturer Name-Description of Car    PRR Class  Pullman Plan Era Used
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs POS21        plan 4133    1948 - 1968
PRR had only 2 of these for trains 28-29
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Sleeper-Lounge-Obs           plan 3959 1920's - 50's?
PRR had only one of these as of 1950. Model is poorly executed
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12S-1DR Sleeper           plan 3410B 1920's - 50's?
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 8S-1DR-2C Sleeper                plan 3979A   1920's - 60's?
model is poorly executed
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper      PS106        plan 9008    1949 - 1968
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 12Dup Rmt-5DBR Slpr PS125A      plan 4066    1938 - 1968
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 10R-6DBR Sleeper     PS106B      plan 9503    1949 - 1968
similar to PRR cars, model is based upon UP prototype
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi 56-seat Chair Car     P85A             1941 - 1968
PRR had only 3 of these for use on the Southerner (SOU RY)
AHM/IHC/Rivarossi Baggage - Mail Car BM70N            1910 - 1968
model is a hybrid of several similar PRR cars
Bachmann - Spectrum Baggage - Coach PB70             1910 - 1968
Bachmann - Spectrum Coach     P70 (various)           1910 - 1968
Bachmann - Spectrum Diner     D78C             1910 - 1968
Bachmann - Spectrum Business Car Z74D             1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Coach     P70 (various)           1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Express B60 (various)           1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Mail Car M70b             1910 - 1968
Bethlehem Car Works* 
(Eastern Car Works*) Baggage - Coach PB70             1910 - 1968
Con-Cor     10R-6DBR Sleeper PS106B       plan 9520     1948 - 1968
PRR had only one similar car (Silver Rapids) for transcontinental service in the California Zephyr.  This is a poorly executed model
Walthers        52-seat Chair Car P85eR             1947 - 1968
PRR owned 10 of these for service on the Silver Meteor (SAL Rwy)
Walthers        1DR,29-seat Parlor PP85             1952 - 1968
PRR had 16 of these for service on the Congressionals and Senators
Walthers         Refrig Expr Car    R50B
Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car      R50B
Cannonball Car Wks* Refrig Car     R7

*These manufacturers'products are plastic kits.  All others are ready-to-run.
 --part1_169.18d95ebf.2b4cfa9f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 07:16:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Helix photos Jerry and list members, While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather interesting helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 07:58:45 -0500 For reference purposes, I purchased these models new in August 1993 for $129.95 each unpainted (decals included). Railworks R-173 G41 w/angled lids, Railworks R-174 G41a w/round lids. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:54 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass > Hello Elden, > > You brought up the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what > the price was for those cars. I've been looking for a few. I understand > that the cars pop up on ebay from time to time. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:33:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? --part1_54.6ab6b52.2b4d8294_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. When I had worked at Morrisville yard there was a piece of track going into Morrisville call the Old Line.The Old Line( as it is called and where the connection is today)comes from the east end of the Morrisville yd and heads down grade into Morrisville(sort of northward) behind the Pizza Hut and then begins to curve to the right(eastward towards the river) and head directly under the present day Delaware River Bridge to a customer. Not knowing how much of this is exactly the original Old Line,if you would have kept going straight and not go around the curve you would be headed very closely to where the present day roadway crosses the bridge from Morrisville to Trenton. I am NOTsaying that it DID do this only that the possibility exists for the Old Line to do this. The present day alignment as we know it does not make it feasible to use to Trenton to Morrisville road bridge. Can anyone else give some more details on the Old Line track connection and alignment to see if this was possible. I never heard that the bridge in question was a former PRR railroad bridge into Trenton. Pat McKinney --part1_54.6ab6b52.2b4d8294_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List.
        When I had worked at Morrisville yard there was a piece of track going into Morrisville call the Old Line.The Old Line( as it is called and where the connection is today)comes from the east end of the Morrisville yd and heads down grade into Morrisville(sort of northward) behind the Pizza Hut and then begins to curve to the right(eastward towards the river) and head directly under the present day Delaware River Bridge to a customer.
   Not knowing how much of this is exactly the original Old Line,if you would have kept going straight and not go around the curve you would be headed very closely to where the present day roadway crosses the bridge from Morrisville to Trenton. I am NOTsaying that it DID do this only that the possibility exists for the Old Line to do this. The present day alignment as we know it does not make it feasible to use to Trenton to Morrisville road bridge.
   Can anyone else give some more details on the Old Line track connection and alignment to see if this was possible. I never heard that the bridge in question was a former PRR railroad bridge into Trenton.

Pat McKinney --part1_54.6ab6b52.2b4d8294_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:52:08 +0000 This railroad was written up in one of the Model Railroad Planning books by Kalmbach (2002 I think). The guy even took Kato SD's and converted them to the water cars so he can pull prototype length trains. Not my cup of tea due to 99% of the traffic being coal but an impressive effort none the less. > Jerry and list members, > > While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my > signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is > related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner > has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather > interesting > helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: > http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:26:43 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers > Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I >have been in the background off and on for quite some years now. I am >wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there >for HO scale? I am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of >timeframe. My questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era >and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this >timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make >some well detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. > Jeremy Helms Welcome back Jeremy! Excellent era choice! I model June 1944, electric and steam. There are lots of great freight car models out there, although to be accurate, you need to be willing to build resin kits (which are lots of fun once you get past "Westerfear !) I have a listing of PRR car classes at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html The only significant absences from the top 15 classes are the X23 box (coming from Westerfield hopefully) and the H25 hopper. For this time period, you should have around 50% home road cars. For other cars look to the the IM and P2k ACF tank cars, upcoming Sunshine UTLX (X-3s I beleive) tanks, P2K stock cars, P2K Erie mill gons (the rest were post WWII), Kato and Bowser 2 bay hovered hoppers, some IM and RC reefers (PFE R40-10, R30-12-9). We expect an appropriate FGE reefer from IM shortly. Finally some of the new UP stuff from Marklin/Trix is good as well, just get the Trix and not Marklin as Trix has Kaydees and RP25 wheels. I can't believe the ______ (fill in the perjorative) at MR didn't mention THAT in their product review!! The keys to finding the right cars are: 1) Build date (branchline puts this on the box) 2) Reweight date (branchline puts this on the box?) 3) Appropriate scheme for your era Al Westerfield is by far the best at providing this info...If yo go to his web site, http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/, he lists the appropriate era for each VERSION of the car offered! Barry covered most of the PRR stuff, so I'll add some comments... >Bowser has >their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 >cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. The Bowser GS gon is "as built", prior to safety appliances. Better kits are available in resin, but on the other hand, you need lots of these (it ranks as class #4 in '43-45). >Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars Watch RC...the X29 is good, but they have a disturbing tendency to make up paint schemes. An example is their PRR FM flat car...it isn't even close to a PRR car, its a NYC car. Good FM models are available from F&C and Sunshine (better) >Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and >tank car; The Tichy tank is a model without a prototype - it was never built. Tishy also has a wood PFE reefer > all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable >cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in >their greatly improved line; Don't forget Sunshine's excellent line as well - harder to get, but worth it. >Accurail has a nice wood reefer and >single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn >and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill >gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; ECW models are notoriously bad for detail and casting. The 90 tn depressed center flat (I'm finishing one now) was owned by NYC, New Haven and Southern among others >MDC has a decent gondola >and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous >wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check >the year. The box is too new (sigh) I would second Brian's reccomendation of teh Steam Era freight Car list and also, check out the Steam Era Freight Car web site at: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:25:19 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B6EF.89743AD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeremy, Take a look at the resin offerings from Sunshine Models. Off the top of my head they have the X28a, X37, X37a, X37b, X41, G27, G29, GS, GSh, FM. F30, and a great group of FGEX cars, Pete Reinhold Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I have been in the background off and on for quite some years now. I am wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there for HO scale? I am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of timeframe. My questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make some well detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B6EF.89743AD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeremy,

=

 

   Take a look at the resin = offerings from Sunshine Models. Off the top of my head they have the X28a, X37, = X37a, X37b, X41, G27, G29, GS, GSh, FM. F30, and a = great group of FGEX cars,

 

Pete = Reinhold

Hello = all,

 

It has been awhile since I = have posted on this list.  I have been in the background off and on for = quite some years now.  I am wondering if there are any steam ear only = modelers on this list out there for HO scale?  I am contemplating a move = back to HO and this type of timeframe.  My questions are where do you obtain = proper early WW-II era and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models = proper to this timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point = to make some well detailed models of steam?  Thank you for any inputs = you have.

 

Jeremy = Helms

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B6EF.89743AD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:00:20 +0000 You need to get a copy of George Pierson's presentation given at the National Convention regarding modeling the PRR in the 20's. He just presented this to the Chicago Terminal chapter last Saturday and it is excellent (Thanks George!). It will give you a basis from where to extend the engines and equipment used a little earlier on the PRR. George is a regular contributor here so you should be able to contact him directly. > > Hello all, It has been awhile since I have posted on this list. I > >have been in the background off and on for quite some years now. I am > >wondering if there are any steam ear only modelers on this list out there > >for HO scale? I am contemplating a move back to HO and this type of > >timeframe. My questions are where do you obtain proper early WW-II era > >and before freight cars (i.e. companies that make models proper to this > >timeframe) and if modeling steam is Bowser a good starting point to make > >some well detailed models of steam? Thank you for any inputs you have. > > Jeremy Helms > > Welcome back Jeremy! > > Excellent era choice! I model June 1944, electric and steam. There are > lots of great freight car models out there, although to be accurate, you > need to be willing to build resin kits (which are lots of fun once you get > past "Westerfear !) I have a listing of PRR car classes at > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html The > only significant absences from the top 15 classes are the X23 box (coming > from Westerfield hopefully) and the H25 hopper. For this time period, you > should have around 50% home road cars. For other cars look to the the IM > and P2k ACF tank cars, upcoming Sunshine UTLX (X-3s I beleive) tanks, P2K > stock cars, P2K Erie mill gons (the rest were post WWII), Kato and Bowser 2 > bay hovered hoppers, some IM and RC reefers (PFE R40-10, R30-12-9). We > expect an appropriate FGE reefer from IM shortly. Finally some of the new > UP stuff from Marklin/Trix is good as well, just get the Trix and not > Marklin as Trix has Kaydees and RP25 wheels. I can't believe the ______ > (fill in the perjorative) at MR didn't mention THAT in their product > review!! > > The keys to finding the right cars are: > 1) Build date (branchline puts this on the box) > 2) Reweight date (branchline puts this on the box?) > 3) Appropriate scheme for your era > > Al Westerfield is by far the best at providing this info...If yo go to his > web site, http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/, he lists the appropriate > era for each VERSION of the car offered! > > Barry covered most of the PRR stuff, so I'll add some comments... > >Bowser has > >their round top box cars, their gondola and flat car, not to mention the N5 > >cabin car (caboose), H21 hopper and twin hopper. > > The Bowser GS gon is "as built", prior to safety appliances. Better kits > are available in resin, but on the other hand, you need lots of these (it > ranks as class #4 in '43-45). > > >Red Caboose has the X29 and similar B&O M26 box cars > > Watch RC...the X29 is good, but they have a disturbing tendency to make up > paint schemes. An example is their PRR FM flat car...it isn't even close > to a PRR car, its a NYC car. Good FM models are available from F&C and > Sunshine (better) > > >Tichy has a nice 40 foot flat (not Pennsy), composite gondola and > >tank car; > > The Tichy tank is a model without a prototype - it was never built. Tishy > also has a wood PFE reefer > > > all USRA cars are good. Westerfield makes a whole fleet of usable > >cars from dozens of roads and Funaro & Camerlengo also offers a fleet in > >their greatly improved line; > > Don't forget Sunshine's excellent line as well - harder to get, but worth it. > > >Accurail has a nice wood reefer and > >single-sheathed box car and a stock car, as well as composite hopper; Athearn > >and MDC both make WW2 'emergency' box cars, ECW offers a couple of long mill > >gons, one a Pennsy car,and depressed center flat; > > ECW models are notoriously bad for detail and casting. The 90 tn depressed > center flat (I'm finishing one now) was owned by NYC, New Haven and > Southern among others > > >MDC has a decent gondola > >and some 36 foot reefers amoung other cars.Branchline Trains has a gorgeous > >wooden reefer out and I think a usable AAR box, though you may want to check > >the year. > > The box is too new (sigh) > > I would second Brian's reccomendation of teh Steam Era freight Car list and > also, check out the Steam Era Freight Car web site at: > http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:39:07 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Bowser cabins This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_CyNgmH0d2k/i7IGt25o3BA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brassThe N-5c in N scale is in production at the moment. Bowsers HO scale N-8 is on hold for the time being. The N-8 is being discussed for the possible ways to go on various issues such as applied grab irons- plastic or metal. Kit or RTR form. Which ever way Bowser goes, I am sure it will be of quality. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hoxie Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:19 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar which had not been done. In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL --Boundary_(ID_CyNgmH0d2k/i7IGt25o3BA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass
The N-5c in N scale is in production at the moment.  Bowsers HO scale N-8 is on hold for the time being.   The N-8 is being discussed for the possible ways to go on various issues such as applied grab irons- plastic or metal.  Kit or RTR form.  Which ever way Bowser goes, I am sure it will be of quality.

Greg V
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hoxie
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:19 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass

Hi Elden--You mentioned the X38 as a boxcar which had not been done.  In the March, 1998, issue of Railroad Model Craftsman James Hunter wrote an article with simple modifications to the P2K 50 foot doubledoor boxcar to make the X38.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
--Boundary_(ID_CyNgmH0d2k/i7IGt25o3BA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:50:30 -0700 Barry and all, The Athearn tank car really isn't all that good...in reality the single dome car is the triple dome car with the outer two domes blanked off. If you can find some of the LL/P2k 8 or 10k kits they are more typical of the era. Don't forget that Tichey offers a USRA boxcar kit, which were PRR class X26, of which the PRR owned 40 percent (10,000) examples of the total production. Walthers used to make decals for this car, and I believe that Westerfield still offers theirs. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:37:54 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B734.4AC852E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks, Jerry, And if you can find one now, they tend to be $150+. Unfortunately, the decals are not good for the car. Hopefully someone is addressing this issue as we speak. Regardless, Railworks ought to think about doing an upgraded version of this car. It was very popular with the buyers. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Breon [mailto:jbreon@email.msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:59 AM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; ELDEN GATWOOD; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41 For reference purposes, I purchased these models new in August 1993 for $129.95 each unpainted (decals included). Railworks R-173 G41 w/angled lids, Railworks R-174 G41a w/round lids. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:54 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass > Hello Elden, > > You brought up the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what > the price was for those cars. I've been looking for a few. I understand > that the cars pop up on ebay from time to time. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B734.4AC852E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41

Thanks, Jerry,
And if you can find one now, they tend to be = $150+.  Unfortunately, the decals are not good for the car.  = Hopefully someone is addressing this issue as we speak.

Regardless, Railworks ought to think about doing an = upgraded version of this car.  It was very popular with the = buyers.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Breon [mailto:jbreon@email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:59 AM
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; ELDEN GATWOOD; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks PRR G41


For reference purposes, I purchased these models new = in August 1993 for
$129.95 each unpainted (decals included). Railworks = R-173 G41 w/angled lids,
Railworks R-174 G41a w/round lids.
Jerry Breon
Reading, PA

----- Original Message -----
From: <zootowerprr@webtv.net>
To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" = <ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR cabins in HO brass


> Hello Elden,
>
>      You brought up = the Railworks PRR G41 gondola. Do you remember what
> the price was for those cars. I've been looking = for a few. I understand
> that the cars pop up on ebay from time to = time.
>
> Dave
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B734.4AC852E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:49:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N Scale X38's from InterMountain From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement... Among the monthly announcements from InterMountain are a run of PRR X38 50' AAR double door box cars in Circle Keystone livery lettered for "AUTOMOBILES". These are ready-to-run cars and 12 road numbers are being issued. The suggested retail price is $18.95 per car. These cars will ship in late January. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:06:35 -0800 Nick, This layout was featured on page 76 of Model Railroad Planning 2002. The helix design is very unusual. Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:16 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Helix photos Jerry and list members, While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather interesting helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Lines West H4 7298 Don, list, Lines West H4 7298was built by Baldwin as PFW&C 298 in August 1900. She was renumbered to 7298 in 1902. She was sold for scrap in June, 1923. H4 specifications: 22 x 28 cylinders, 56 inch drivers, 205 pounds of steam pressure, total weight of 179,000 pounds and a tractive effort of 42,168 pounds. All of the above information comes from Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster. Pennsy Power 3 lists the engines as having Belpaire fireboxes and 33.33 square feet of grate area. I don't know of any photos online, but Pennsy Steam: A Second Look, by Paul Carleton, has a nice shot of an H4 engine on page 64. Doug --- Don Millbranth wrote, in part: > Greetings.. > I would appreciate learning the class of an old > Pennsylvania Lines engine number.7298. Also, are there any photos of this engine on line? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? More on the Morrisville (PA) area, I am staring at a Hagstrom county map of Mercer County; it shows the alignment of what Pat calls the Old Line (also called this on a 1930s PRR schematic map of Trenton area trackage, in Down Along the Old Bel Del, p. 26-27). Anyway, the Old Line alignment, per the Hagstrom map, runs along the Pennsylvania Canal, swinging northeast and away from the Main Line; crosses (the new) Route 1; then swings a little to the east, away from the canal, and vanishes . ... but on an approximate alignment which would bring it onto Bridge St (old Route 1, now called Alt 1 on the map), which leads to the Trenton Makes bridge. This seems to support the assertion that the highway bridge may be an old PRR bridge, or constructed in its place! On the Hagstrom map, there is no track for a few blocks, but the industrial track reappears again further south, where the present rail bridge stands, and continues further south along the river. This line is clearly connected to the Old Line on the PRR 1930s map, as I imagine it still is today. But the Hagstrom map has omitted it in a populated area of many streets. The 1930s schematic map also shows spurs off the Old Line/industrial track in the "downtown" Morrisville area, including one spur to the north, and one to the south . . . leading to a sub- station, it seems to indicate. And coincidentally, NJ Transit has what I guess is a holiday exhibit in their new 7th Avenue concourse at NY Penn Station, it consists of several animated "floats" moving around an oval; they seem to portray the evolution of New Jersey history; the first one is a contraption which seems to have the king of England (?) sitting on a float made principally of . . . the Trenton Makes bridge! I just saw this last night. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KNesbitt@penncro.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:45:09 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B746.11F6B5D0 Content-Type: text/plain http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ This is a good photo for those of you who have not seen the bridge in question. I personally believe this bridge to be part of the old King's highway from Philadlephia to Trenton. Kenneth W. Nesbitt -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:31 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? More on the Morrisville (PA) area, I am staring at a Hagstrom county map of Mercer County; it shows the alignment of what Pat calls the Old Line (also called this on a 1930s PRR schematic map of Trenton area trackage, in Down Along the Old Bel Del, p. 26-27). Anyway, the Old Line alignment, per the Hagstrom map, runs along the Pennsylvania Canal, swinging northeast and away from the Main Line; crosses (the new) Route 1; then swings a little to the east, away from the canal, and vanishes . ... but on an approximate alignment which would bring it onto Bridge St (old Route 1, now called Alt 1 on the map), which leads to the Trenton Makes bridge. This seems to support the assertion that the highway bridge may be an old PRR bridge, or constructed in its place! On the Hagstrom map, there is no track for a few blocks, but the industrial track reappears again further south, where the present rail bridge stands, and continues further south along the river. This line is clearly connected to the Old Line on the PRR 1930s map, as I imagine it still is today. But the Hagstrom map has omitted it in a populated area of many streets. The 1930s schematic map also shows spurs off the Old Line/industrial track in the "downtown" Morrisville area, including one spur to the north, and one to the south . . . leading to a sub- station, it seems to indicate. And coincidentally, NJ Transit has what I guess is a holiday exhibit in their new 7th Avenue concourse at NY Penn Station, it consists of several animated "floats" moving around an oval; they seem to portray the evolution of New Jersey history; the first one is a contraption which seems to have the king of England (?) sitting on a float made principally of . . . the Trenton Makes bridge! I just saw this last night. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B746.11F6B5D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?

http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/

This is a good photo for those of you who have not = seen the bridge in question.     I personally = believe this bridge to be part of the old King's highway from = Philadlephia to Trenton.


Kenneth W. Nesbitt


-----Original Message-----
From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:31 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge = to Trenton?


More on the Morrisville (PA) area,

I am staring at a Hagstrom county map of Mercer = County; it shows
the alignment of what Pat calls the Old Line (also = called this on a
1930s PRR schematic map of Trenton area trackage, in = Down
Along the Old Bel Del, p. 26-27). 

Anyway, the Old Line alignment, per the Hagstrom map, = runs
along the Pennsylvania Canal, swinging northeast and = away from
the Main Line; crosses (the new) Route 1; then = swings a little to
the east, away from the canal, and vanishes . ... = but on an
approximate alignment which would bring it onto = Bridge St (old
Route 1, now called Alt 1 on the map), which leads = to the Trenton
Makes bridge.  This seems to support the = assertion that the
highway bridge may be an old PRR bridge, or = constructed in its
place!  On the Hagstrom map, there is no track = for a few blocks,
but the industrial track reappears again further = south, where the
present rail bridge stands, and continues further = south along the
river.  This line is clearly connected to the = Old Line on the PRR
1930s map, as I imagine it still is today.  But = the Hagstrom map
has omitted it in a populated area of many = streets. 

The 1930s schematic map also shows spurs off the Old =
Line/industrial track in the "downtown" = Morrisville area, including
one spur to the north, and one to the south . . . = leading to a sub- station, it seems to indicate.

And coincidentally, NJ Transit has what I guess is a = holiday exhibit
in their new 7th Avenue concourse at NY Penn = Station, it consists
of several animated "floats" moving around = an oval; they seem to
portray the evolution of New Jersey history; the = first one is a
contraption which seems to have the king of England = (?) sitting on
a float made principally of . .  . the Trenton = Makes bridge!   I just
saw this last night.

John Bobsin 

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C2B746.11F6B5D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:18:28 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Bill & folks, Yes, I've read that the Athearn single dome is a weirdo, with a very large capacity and too small a dome for that much expansion postential. Having been based on the three dome car(who's domes would be adequte, by the way)would explain it's too-small size. But I think the three dome and insulated ("chemical")tank car are pretty fair for their price. The other extreme, sizewise, would be the MDC 'old timer' tank car of about 4,000 gallons. Despite it's decrepid appearence, this is another good car for c1940 usage. Perhaps the best single source of freight car info, with built dates, etc, is the Berkshire Lines Freight Car Guides. Even if the book isn't available any longer, the NEB&W website offers pretty much the same info. I don't have the RPI website address any longer, and I think they've begun charging a nominal fee for monthly access, but still a might good asset for building a freight car fleet. Perhaps someone could advise? In any event, make sure wooden box cars dominate the offline cars if you're going to do prewar. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:50:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] Helix photos Very interesting photo. My own main helix in HO is fairly conventional, about 4-inch rise per revolution, 28-inch minimum radius (on the inside of 2 and sometimes 3 tracks); and in restrospect I now suspect that my "conventional" design is pushing it, in terms of the grade and curvature. I had speculated that an oval-shaped "helix" would be more successful, reducing the grade; in fact you could make the grade steeper on the straight legs and less steep on the curves, dunno if "Pocohontas Division" did this, but he's certainly done the oval concept in fine style! Just speculating, but N must be harder than HO, since fingers and the thickness of the subroadbed don't tend to scale down. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:50:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? 0100,0100,0100Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, 0000,8000,0000http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/0100,0100,0100 is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? John Bobsin0000,8000,0000 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trenton Bridge Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:58:22 +0000 I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves otherwise will gladly retract my statement. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:08:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos From: Jerry Britton On 1/8/03 2:50 PM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote: > Very interesting photo. My own main helix in HO is fairly > conventional, about 4-inch rise per revolution, 28-inch minimum > radius (on the inside of 2 and sometimes 3 tracks); and in > restrospect I now suspect that my "conventional" design is pushing > it, in terms of the grade and curvature. I had speculated that an > oval-shaped "helix" would be more successful, reducing the grade; > in fact you could make the grade steeper on the straight legs and > less steep on the curves, dunno if "Pocohontas Division" did this, > but he's certainly done the oval concept in fine style! Just > speculating, but N must be harder than HO, since fingers and the > thickness of the subroadbed don't tend to scale down. > Yes and No regarding N scale. You do still need about four inches clearance from rail head to rail head. At first thought you might think an N scale helix can be 1/2 the diameter of an HO scale helix (1:87 vs. 1:160) but it doesn't work out that way. Since you need to climb 4" per rotation, what might be a comfortable radius in HO scale (22") scaled down by 50% to 11" would have to have an enormous grade in order to rise 4" per turn! On my N scale helix I made the innermost track at 22.5". If I recall, the grade is just over 2% for the 4" per turn rise. The helix has five tracks, rising 3.5 turns. The outermost track has a very comfortable grade. I've pulled two dozen cars up the grade with only one loco running at less that 50% power (though from a running start!). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:19:00 -0900 It's computer generated. That applet which generates the water ripples is one of earliest Java applets. If the water level were lower, you'd see the piers keeping the bridge up rippling too. waaay offtopic, -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? > Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, > > http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ > > is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? > > John Bobsin > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:19:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge. On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular > bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR > entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at > Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases > that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to > an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. > Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch > bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original > location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that > the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves > otherwise will gladly retract my statement. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:30:43 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA > shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge. Ah, here we are: www.drjtbc.com/bridges/tollsupported.htm "As a result of floods reaching a level higher than expected during the construction period, the masonry was raised to a new high level. Because of this precaution, the bridge was not swept away during the 1841 flood that destroyed five other bridges over the Delaware north of Trenton. Several years later, the bridge was remodeled to permit passage of locomotives and became the first bridge in the United States to be used for interstate railroad traffic." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:54:12 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam era modelers Barry sez: >Yes, I've read that the Athearn single dome is a weirdo, with a very large >capacity and too small a dome for that much expansion postential. Having >been based on the three dome car(who's domes would be adequte, by the >way)would explain it's too-small size. But I think the three dome and >insulated ("chemical")tank car are pretty fair for their price. The Athearn single dome can be fixed to represent a 12,500 gallon SP protoype with some carving and a new IM dome but its a lot of work (Richard Hendrickson published this a few years back). The insulated tank is a post war prototype. >The other extreme, sizewise, would be the MDC 'old timer' tank car of >about 4,000 gallons. Despite it's decrepid appearence, this is another >good car for c1940 usage. The only problem with the car is the oversized underframe...which reminds me that the very similar frameless "Van Dyke" tank car can be had as a kit from Precision - get the one with brass parts (and get the HO, not HON3 kit)! >Perhaps the best single source of freight car info, with built dates, etc, >is the Berkshire Lines Freight Car Guides. Even if the book isn't >available any longer, the NEB&W website offers pretty much the same info. >I don't have the RPI website address any longer, and I think they've begun >charging a nominal fee for monthly access, but still a might good asset >for building a freight car fleet. Perhaps someone could advise? http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/index.asp You pay $5.00 for a month - a VERY good deal considering the info. Otherwise, since the web is never dead, check out the archived FREE version of the site (circa 6/01) site at: http://web.archive.org/web/20010604034236/www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/ Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:19:24 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_nwlVw6btBr21OL67c7Q7lw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The water is much lower. That area of the Delaware River at times (drought, summer) can be crossed on foot. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:50 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --Boundary_(ID_nwlVw6btBr21OL67c7Q7lw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
The water is much lower.  That area of the Delaware River at times (drought, summer) can be crossed on foot.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bobsin@nac.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:50 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton?

Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted,

http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/

is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware?

John Bobsin









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--Boundary_(ID_nwlVw6btBr21OL67c7Q7lw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:35:12 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge --------------080609030507040407080401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge. The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here. Derrick J Brashear wrote: >http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA >shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge. > >On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > >>I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular >>bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR >>entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at >>Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases >>that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to >>an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. >>Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch >>bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original >>location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that >>the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves >>otherwise will gladly retract my statement. >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >. > > > --------------080609030507040407080401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg

Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge.
The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here.

Derrick J Brashear wrote:
http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA

shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge.



On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote:



  
I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular 

bridge as soon as I get a chance.  It stands to reason that when the PRR 

entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at 

Trenton.  Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day.  In most cases 

that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to 

an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. 

Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch 

bridge.  I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original 

location or site of the bridge.  So for now I will stand by my statement that 

the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves 

otherwise will gladly retract my statement.  



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.

--------------080609030507040407080401-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:35:51 -0500 Nick: This was in last year's Model RR Planning. Truly a beauty. This is the best example of staging that I've ever seen. Makes one want to start all over again. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Kulp To: PRR-Talk Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:16 AM Subject: [PRR] Helix photos > Jerry and list members, > > While looking for information on my C/MRI computer interface that controls my > signaling system I found this web site. Although it is not PRR related it is > related to one of the PRR's "owned" railroads, the Norfolk & Western. The owner > has taken some photos of his layout under construction and he has a rather interesting > helix. It is truly a thing of beauty. Check it out for yourselves at: > http://www.enteract.com/~weyand/pocadiv/pocahontas.htm > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:45:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos My helix, the inside track is 28 inch radius, four inches rise per turn, works out to 2.2%. 22.5" radius works out to 2.9%, my calculator says. I recently tried backing a train up the grade, that is, engines pushing; this was maybe a 12 car train. With very little encouragement, half the train fell over to the outside of the curve. Hel-lo! (The tracks are not superelevated, which no doubt makes a great difference in such behavior -- pushing. But banking might make trains fall toward the inside when pulling uphill!) Just evidence that this is a pretty tough grade/hill even for models. Clearing derailments in such restricted space is no picnic. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:57:55 -0500 Did the Pennsy ever paint their wood water tanks? If so, what color please. In all of the color photos I can find one in they are just plain soot colored. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:59:44 -0500 John: Are your couplers body mounted? This grade, 2.2% with a twelve car train, should not be a problem when pushing, unless you have truck mounted couplers. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos > My helix, the inside track is 28 inch radius, four inches rise per > turn, works out to 2.2%. 22.5" radius works out to 2.9%, my > calculator says. > > I recently tried backing a train up the grade, that is, engines > pushing; this was maybe a 12 car train. With very little > encouragement, half the train fell over to the outside of the curve. > Hel-lo! (The tracks are not superelevated, which no doubt makes a > great difference in such behavior -- pushing. But banking might > make trains fall toward the inside when pulling uphill!) Just > evidence that this is a pretty tough grade/hill even for models. > > Clearing derailments in such restricted space is no picnic. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:19:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] brass cabin cars. James, List, I just heard back from Pacific Mountain concerning their previously announced N6b. Here is Allan's reply: ("Lack of drawings, information and demand has put the N6b on indefinite hold", Allan ) Well, it looks like we need to wait for another comapny to release an affordable N6b. Once an item is put on hold, it usually dosn't get produced. As per their website, they will produce anything in Resin, make masters, molds, etc. So if anyone wants to tackle the N6b on their own, they, Pacific Mountain can help produce it. I wish I could have produced my 1:29th N6b in resin but it was just to complicated and more or less all hand built. An HO version could be done, I just don't know how to go about doing it or have the funds to back me up...Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:44:56 -0500 Frank, I was under the impression that the wood sides of PRR water tanks were painted gray - believe I saw a shot of one on the line between Elmira & Sodus point that was freshly painted at one time. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "parkvarieties" To: "PRR- Talk" Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks > Did the Pennsy ever paint their wood water tanks? If so, what color please. > In all of the color photos I can find one in they are just plain > soot colored. Thanks. > Frank Brua > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:49:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos Re: my train which fell over outward pushing 12 cars up 2% 28" radius (HO); no, all the couplers are body-mounted. I don't think it fell over of its own volition, but I just touched it lightly and it did so. It seemed very unstable. -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:19:50 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix photos John/all: I routinely push 20 to 25 car trains up a 2.1% grade (1 inch in 4 feet) with 30" radius while re-staging with no problems... However, all my couplers are body-mounted AND I make sure all of my cars are at the NMRA recommeded weights or a little heavier. Furthermroe, whenever possible, I try to put the weight low in the car, directly over the trucks... I also use all metal wheels... Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Steam books Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:12:21 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0155_01C2B763.04092A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am writing again to kind of see if there is available anywhere out = there a listing of good books on PRR steam. I have recently obtained = excellent quality used copies of Paul Carleton's books on Pennsy steam A = to T and second look. I would imagine there are others out there also = but I do not want to get books that are really heavy on diesel coverage. Also in a response to a previous post I had submitted someone had = suggested Sunshine models for resin kits, is there an address for them = to get a product listing? Thanks for any help on either of these two = questions. All submissions have helped immensely. Jeremy Helms ------=_NextPart_000_0155_01C2B763.04092A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
I am writing again to kind of see if = there is=20 available anywhere out there a listing of good books on PRR steam.  = I have=20 recently obtained excellent quality used copies of Paul Carleton's books = on=20 Pennsy steam A to T and second look.  I would imagine there are = others out=20 there also but I do not want to get books that are really heavy on = diesel=20 coverage.
 
Also in a response to a previous post I = had=20 submitted someone had suggested Sunshine models for resin kits, is there = an=20 address for them to get a product listing?  Thanks for any help on = either=20 of these two questions.  All submissions have helped=20 immensely.
 
Jeremy Helms
------=_NextPart_000_0155_01C2B763.04092A30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 23:33:13 -0500 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics N-8 Cabin Car Pilot Samples Hello All: We at Rail Classics will post photos of our N-8 Cabin Car Pilot Samples this weekend see them on our Web Site www.railclassics.com Take a look and let us know your input. Thank you for your support, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:24:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Water Tanks In a message dated 1/8/03 6:05:09 PM Central Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << Did the Pennsy ever paint their wood water tanks? If so, what color please. In all of the color photos I can find one in they are just plain soot colored. >> I believe they were painted the standard structure colors. George M mentions gray, but I have seen several which appear to be painted the light building color, which I used to match with a 50-50 mix of Pollyscale Military Khaki and white, but now just use Aged Concrete. Certainly faded, weathered, and covered with soot in many cases. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam books Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:30:11 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06AC_01C2B776.45494990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeremy--I strongly recommend Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1, 2, and 3 from = Morning Sun Books. Very little diesel. For Sunshine, you can find a = listing at=20 http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ . Just a little ways down under = "What's New" you will find Sunshine All-Kit List. Sunshine does not = have a web site. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_06AC_01C2B776.45494990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeremy--I strongly recommend Pennsy = Steam Years=20 Vol. 1, 2, and 3 from Morning Sun Books.  Very little diesel.  = For=20 Sunshine, you can find a listing at
http://www.steamfreightcars.com= / . =20 Just a little ways down under "What's New" you will find Sunshine = All-Kit=20 List.  Sunshine does not have a web site.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_06AC_01C2B776.45494990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:04:30 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/09/03 RE: PRR Water tanks FROM: Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com I can remember three PRR wooden water tanks from the Allegheny Valley Branch and they all appeared to be unpainted wood. The tannish-gray color (kinda mushroom color) used on depots had a tendency after years of wear to look like unpainted wood from a distance but once examined closely was actually the paint with grime and soot embedded into it. This may be the case with the water tanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 04:50:34 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Bridge --0-1084205998-1042116634=:99563 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for the photo. Randy Harrison Chris Brandt wrote:http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge. The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here. Derrick J Brashear wrote: http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PAshows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge.On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote: I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular bridge as soon as I get a chance. It stands to reason that when the PRR entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at Trenton. Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day. In most cases that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch bridge. I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original location or site of the bridge. So for now I will stand by my statement that the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves otherwise will gladly retract my statement. -----------------------------------------------------------------------For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -----------------------------------------------------------------------For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1084205998-1042116634=:99563 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks for the photo.

Randy Harrison

 Chris Brandt <cobrandt@eclipse.net> wrote:

http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/Trenton-Morrisville-2.jpg

Construction photo of present Trenton-Morrisville bridge.
The "Makes" looks like a railroad bridge here.

Derrick J Brashear wrote:
http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=burl06ne.jpg&state=PA

shows old alignments at both ends that line up nicely with the bridge.



On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 ndbprr@att.net wrote:



  
I will check the comments in E. P Alexanders book regarding the vehicular 

bridge as soon as I get a chance.  It stands to reason that when the PRR 

entered it's massive upgrades of bridges that something earlier stood at 

Trenton.  Let's face it the river just didn't appear one day.  In most cases 

that I can recall the railroad built a parallel solution ( i.e. Rockville) to 

an existing structure before abandoning or destroying the previous structure. 

Something had to handle the traffic across the Delaware before the current arch 

bridge.  I don't recall any evidence that the current mainline is the original 

location or site of the bridge.  So for now I will stand by my statement that 

the vehicular bridge is the original mainline location but if evidence proves 

otherwise will gladly retract my statement.  



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.


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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1084205998-1042116634=:99563-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Lucas" Subject: [PRR] pictures of x43B. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:28:46 -0000 List, A happy new year to you and yours. I'm just started to build a Branchline X43B but I have only been able to find two photo's, in pt 1 & 2 of PRR Colour Guide. Anyone on the list know of the whereabouts of other pictures of this car in 'as built' condition. Any help would be most appreciated. Kind regards, James. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Front end cars Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:57:12 +0000 For cars to be used in regular pasenger service they need a steam line so the steam can be passed through to the passenger cars. From that I would assume (always dangerous) that any car at the front end of a passenger train was thus equipped. Yet there are many pictures of what appear to be standard cars used at the front end. Is that why mail cars had a stove in some cases? I remember riding the Duquense from Lancaster to Philadelphia on several occasions where the head end casr outnumbered the passenger cars. They would all have had to have steam connections. Correct? Were there any other lines like a signal line that needed to be added? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:32:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Helix Calculations From: Jerry Britton In yesterday's discussion, I mentioned my innermost helix track as having a radius of 21.5" and a rise of 4" per turn, resulting in a grade just over 2%. Another lister did the math and came up with a 2.9% grade. Turns out my memory was failing. My innermost track has a radius of 25.5", a 51" diameter, or roughly a run of 166", or a run of 41.5" per rise of 1", or a grade of roughly 2.4%. By comparison, the outermost track has a radius of 31.5", which translates to a grade of 1.9%. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:04:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:26:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 10:04 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut > off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound > trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the > freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel > and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front > would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the > Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West > of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ Most helpers cut off at UN, the tower just west of the tunnels. Others went as far as MO, the interlocking just a mile or two west, at Cresson. There was no need for helpers to remain on through Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] pictures of x43B. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:32:55 -0600 Hi James--You asked-- > > I'm just started to build a Branchline X43B but I have only been able to > find two photo's, in pt 1 & 2 of PRR Colour Guide. > > Anyone on the list know of the whereabouts of other pictures of this car in > 'as built' condition. > The Keystone Fall 1987 page 6 has a photo of an X43b. In Pennsy Power III on page 412 there is a photo of an X43a which differed from the "b" only by having Youngstown instead of Superior doors and welded side panels instead of riveted. Right below that photo is an X43b, but in the later Shadow Keystone scheme. If you come across a photo of an X43--no a, b, or c--please let us know. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Front end cars Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:09:13 -0500 You are correct. All X-29 type cars on the front end of passenger trains had steam connectors and signal lines. If they inadvertently cut the train and not the steam connector, the connector usually got yanked out with the break often back along the center sill. My first supervisory job was as a Gang Foreman at Penn Coach Yard in Philadelphia and my guys repaired many a steam trainline on those head end cars as well as the coaches and business cars. If a steam line got yanked out on the road, they would move the errant car to the rear of the train so as to allow the passengers to stay warm. Bill Volkmer (been there, done that, on the late great PRR) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:57 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Front end cars For cars to be used in regular pasenger service they need a steam line so the steam can be passed through to the passenger cars. From that I would assume (always dangerous) that any car at the front end of a passenger train was thus equipped. Yet there are many pictures of what appear to be standard cars used at the front end. Is that why mail cars had a stove in some cases? I remember riding the Duquense from Lancaster to Philadelphia on several occasions where the head end casr outnumbered the passenger cars. They would all have had to have steam connections. Correct? Were there any other lines like a signal line that needed to be added? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:34:25 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Mark- Diesel helpers, along with steam cut off just after exiting the portals. Then crossed over from no. 4 track to no. 3 track. After UN, engines switched left onto the loop-around track where they enter the Mainline eastbound onto track 3at AR for the return to Altoona. On the 2 loop tracks was a diesel servicing facility. Steam was serviced there prior to. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:27 AM To: Mark Lehman; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope On 1/9/03 10:04 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut > off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound > trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the > freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel > and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front > would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the > Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West > of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ Most helpers cut off at UN, the tower just west of the tunnels. Others went as far as MO, the interlocking just a mile or two west, at Cresson. There was no need for helpers to remain on through Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:20:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back to tracks 1&2? Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and diesel helpers?--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:50:05 -0500 Hi Guys, Given the responce to Mark's question seems to only address freight helpers on the REAR of the train. I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of passenger trains, therefore the helper engine(s) would be ahead of the road engine on the train. To re-state Mark's question, how was this situation addressed? Did the train stop somewhere, or did the helper accompany the train to the next station and cut off there?? I would think cutting off a head-end helper while under-way would be extremely dangerous, if not damn near impossible. Inquiring minds want to know. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:34 AM To: Jerry Britton; Mark Lehman; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Mark- Diesel helpers, along with steam cut off just after exiting the portals. Then crossed over from no. 4 track to no. 3 track. After UN, engines switched left onto the loop-around track where they enter the Mainline eastbound onto track 3at AR for the return to Altoona. On the 2 loop tracks was a diesel servicing facility. Steam was serviced there prior to. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:27 AM To: Mark Lehman; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope On 1/9/03 10:04 AM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Greetings, Anyone know where the West bound passenger helpers were cut > off at? I was watching a new PRR Steam video that showed West bound > trains emerging from the Galitzin tunnel. The helpers (M1s)on the > freights would cut off on the fly just as they came out of the tunnel > and stop. The Passenger trains with 1 or 2 helper K4's on the front > would roll on by. Would these passenger helpers be cut off at the > Johnstown station or sooner station stop? Did trains need helpers West > of Johnstown?-----Mark L------ Most helpers cut off at UN, the tower just west of the tunnels. Others went as far as MO, the interlocking just a mile or two west, at Cresson. There was no need for helpers to remain on through Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). 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The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Station Platform Removal Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:57:20 -0500 Can anyone tell me when the station platform east of AR tower in the Altoona area was removed? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:01:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 12:50 PM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > > Given the responce to Mark's question seems to only address freight helpers > on the REAR of the train. > I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of passenger > trains, therefore the helper > engine(s) would be ahead of the road engine on the train. To re-state Mark's > question, how was this > situation addressed? Did the train stop somewhere, or did the helper > accompany the train to the next > station and cut off there?? I would think cutting off a head-end helper > while under-way would be > extremely dangerous, if not damn near impossible. > Inquiring minds want to know. > I "believe" they stopped the train at UN. Any location would require a stop to cut off extra power up front. But remember, passenger trains were relatively short. Stopping short of the UN loop track would still allow the entire train to be west of the tunnels. Also worth noting is that, until circa 1940's, trains still stopped at Gallitzin station. The power could cut off while the train was at the station. At some point in the 1950's, an ABA set of E units was probably enough power for any passenger train so a helper would not have been needed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:10:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Station Platform Removal From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 12:57 PM, parkvarieties (parkvarieties@provide.net) wrote: > Can anyone tell me when the station platform east of AR tower in > the Altoona area was removed? Thanks. Sounds like you are referring to the eastbound station platform at Gallitzin? Don't know when they were removed, but passenger service there stopped before the 1950's. You can still locate where the platforms were. We took note during RailFest 2001. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:19:09 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope --- "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of > passenger > trains, I was told as a wee child that it was illegal. Perhaps "illegal" meant "contrary to ICC regulations". In any event, my impression was that it was some authority higher than "the railroad" which prohibited the practice. On the other hand, also as a wee child, I saw one passenger train move eastward through Latrobe, Pa with two steam engines, one pushing. This would have been during or just after WW2 and, in retrospect, I can't be sure if it was a passenger train or a string of empty coaches being moved somewhere. At the time, I thought it was a train carrying passengers which is why it sticks in my mind. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:28:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 1:19 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: >> I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of >> passenger >> trains, > > I was told as a wee child that it was illegal. Perhaps "illegal" > meant "contrary to ICC regulations". In any event, my impression was > that it was some authority higher than "the railroad" which > prohibited the practice. > > On the other hand, also as a wee child, I saw one passenger train > move eastward through Latrobe, Pa with two steam engines, one > pushing. This would have been during or just after WW2 and, in > retrospect, I can't be sure if it was a passenger train or a string > of empty coaches being moved somewhere. At the time, I thought it was > a train carrying passengers which is why it sticks in my mind. > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. HOWEVER, solid mail trains, which ran as passenger trains, were allowed to have helpers on the back. There are numerous published photos of this practice. Maybe that's what you saw as a child, a mail train? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:45:11 -0500 It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. I think the notch can still be seen where the shanty stood in the hill on the south side of the RR between Gallitzen and UN. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "robert netzlof" ; "Burnley, Charles" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope > On 1/9/03 1:19 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > > >> I believe the railroad did NOT allow helpers on the rear of > >> passenger > >> trains, > > > > I was told as a wee child that it was illegal. Perhaps "illegal" > > meant "contrary to ICC regulations". In any event, my impression was > > that it was some authority higher than "the railroad" which > > prohibited the practice. > > > > On the other hand, also as a wee child, I saw one passenger train > > move eastward through Latrobe, Pa with two steam engines, one > > pushing. This would have been during or just after WW2 and, in > > retrospect, I can't be sure if it was a passenger train or a string > > of empty coaches being moved somewhere. At the time, I thought it was > > a train carrying passengers which is why it sticks in my mind. > > > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that > prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice > started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. > > HOWEVER, solid mail trains, which ran as passenger trains, were allowed to > have helpers on the back. There are numerous published photos of this > practice. Maybe that's what you saw as a child, a mail train? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:59:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/03 1:45 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest > Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the > "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. The April 1957 issue of TRAINS that Bennett mentions certainly is a "must have" issue. I frequently see other issues of TRAINS from the late 1940's and through the 1950's for sale on eBay that list PRR content. Can anyone describe what's included in these other issues and whether or not they are as worth having is the 4/57 issue? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:01:35 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: FW: [PRR] Trenton Bridge I asked good friend and NJ railroad historian Paul Schopp about the railroad bridges in Trenton. His reply is below. BTW Paul will be giving a talk on the C&A during the 2003 PRRT&HS Annual Meeting. Al ==================== The Philadelphia & Trenton Railroad first crossed the Delaware River in 1837 on the 1806 Burr Arch covered bridge erected between Trenton and Morrisville and entering Trenton on Bridge Street. Rail traffic continued using this bridge, but beginning in 1868, the C&A and then the Pennsy allowed the bridge to deteriorate because of the desire to erect a new bridge. In 1874, the PRR began rebuilding and made additions to the stone bridge piers. The company used the new pier additions to erect an double-track, iron-truss bridge. The Pennsy installed the last span of this bridge in August 1875 and finally dismantled the old Burr arch bridge in December 1875. In 1876, the railroad erected another iron bridge to accommodate foot and horse traffic; wagons were forced to use the Calhoun Street Bridge. In 1892, the railroad again rebuilt the piers and installed a new four-track steel bridge erected by the American Bridge Company to the south of the iron bridges. Six years later, the iron railroad bridge came down and it, too, was replaced with a four-track steel bridge erected by the American Bridge Company. In 1903, the PRR opened its new stone viaduct across the Delaware and by 1908, the company discontinued use of the steel bridges, removed them and sold them to the Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington Railroad to use in bridging the Potomac. The remaining iron public bridge sitting on the piers, by now a toll bridge, was sold to the Joint Commission for Eliminating Toll Bridges for $240,000 in 1918. In 1928, the commission deemed the old iron bridge unsafe and constructed a new bridge on the piers which formerly held the 1898 steel railroad bridge at a cost of $650,000. Initially called the Lincoln Highway Bridge, today it is known as the "Trenton Makes-World Takes" bridge. This sign was first installed to attract the attention of those speeding by in trains on the 1903 stone viaduct. Hope this helps you out! Best, Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:23:18 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope --- Jerry Britton wrote: > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that > prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this > practice > started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. > > HOWEVER, solid mail trains, which ran as passenger trains, were > allowed to > have helpers on the back. There are numerous published photos of > this > practice. Maybe that's what you saw as a child, a mail train? No, pretty sure it was coaches or if not, some other sort of cars intended to carry people. Something with windows anyway. But as I say, memory can't be sure they weren't empty cars. (It's been a bit over 50 years.) It may have been a string of coaches heading to Altoona for repair, or going somewhere to pick up a bunch of troops. But if the cars were empty, why two locomotives? Regarding mail trains and their cousins, express trains, I recall seeing container flat cars (the long, 8 container type) running in such trains. Always wondered, since such trains had either a coach or combine or cabin on the rear, and those cars were steam heated, were the container flats equiped with steam lines or did the riders in the rear car have to tough it out in cold weather? By "container flat car", I mean the distinctively PRR ones written up in the Keystone sometime in the mid-80's. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:32:56 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Mark- Their is an uncoupling chain that dangles from the end handrail of the caboose to the coupling pin at the centerline of the cabin. The end brakeman would just pull on the chain, to pull the pin up to release the coupling. Then the snappers would slow down, switch tracks and hit the run around. >From the portals to UN interlocking, their is a good distance. For about 1/2 mile the track is practically level in this area. The passenger train would have already passed the area required for helper service. Also, a Jerry stated, Gallitzen had a passenger station in use into the 40's. Approx. 10 years left until steam operations ceased. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Lehman Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:20 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back to tracks 1&2? Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and diesel helpers?--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:34:34 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope To my understanding, snappers did not offer air line input. Please correct me if I am wrong. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Lehman Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:20 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back to tracks 1&2? Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and diesel helpers?--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:36:19 EST Subject: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey Now that the topic of Loewey and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:56:57 +0000 How would you like to ride up the hill five feet in front of say an I-1 and pull a pin? I know most of us would kill for the chance but I'll bet there were a lot of rear end guys who were very pleased to see those beasts depart from the scene. Can you imagine trying to even think with the stack talk coming in the cabin carlet alone the rear platform? Wonder how long it took for their hearing to improve if at all? > Mark- > > Their is an uncoupling chain that dangles from the end handrail of the > caboose to the coupling pin at the centerline of the cabin. The end > brakeman would just pull on the chain, to pull the pin up to release the > coupling. Then the snappers would slow down, switch tracks and hit the run > around. > > From the portals to UN interlocking, their is a good distance. For about > 1/2 mile the track is practically level in this area. The passenger train > would have already passed the area required for helper service. Also, a > Jerry stated, Gallitzen had a passenger station in use into the 40's. > Approx. 10 years left until steam operations ceased. > > Greg V > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark > Lehman > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:20 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope > > > Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would > be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what > about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger > train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back > to tracks 1&2? > > Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on > the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines > connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was > uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and > diesel helpers?--Mark-- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:28:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope Hello Mark, Some heavy mail trains took their helpers are the way to Pittsburgh. These were the road helpers (steam era) on the front end of the train that were added at Altoona Station. During the diesel era, some westbound freights (mostly ore drags)took their helpers to Johnstown or even farther depending on how heavy the train was. There are enough hills and dips on the mainline to slow trains down so the helpers were used to keep the speed up in the 40 to 50 mph range. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:50:53 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey [Loewy] VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Now that the topic of Loewey LOEWY 8)>> > and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone > in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab > designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? Nope. THAT was the (other) point of my little rant. 8)>> ''the shape' just appeared' Its been said that it may have come from Westinghouse. To my eye, it looks a lot like a 'windblasted' L5, with possible relations to NYC S Motor and/or Milwaukee Bi Polars. Both those are GE, more or less as was, i think, the first L5. I make no assertions, just observations (and some may be iffy....). Candidates seem to be: GE PRR Westinghouse and all combinations -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:40:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope --part1_75.6d46c98.2b4f7084_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/2003 1:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that > prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice > started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back. > Did not that other railroad use pushers westbound on West Albany Hill? In steaam days, there was one or more 0-8-0 switchers assigned, according to some still-firing neurons in my skull. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_75.6d46c98.2b4f7084_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/2003 1:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


I believe it was a national regulatory issue (AAR, ICC, etc.) that
prohibited the pushing of a passenger train. Not sure when this practice
started, as very early photos do show helpers on the back.


Did not that other railroad use pushers westbound on West Albany Hill?
In steaam days, there was one or more 0-8-0 switchers assigned, according
to some still-firing neurons in my skull.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_75.6d46c98.2b4f7084_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:36:23 -0600 The issue in question was a comprehensive, photographic description of operations on primarily the Pittsburgh division showing the position of all trains at a certain time in the evening, when all the Blue Ribbon fleet was roughly near or at Altoona. A lot of pictures, description of tower operations, etc., a statement to the effect that the volume was too great to justify CTC. It is a typical Trains article of the David Morgan era in which one can almost feel the excitement and pulse of the Railroad on that particular evening. And at that time period, the decline of the railroad was not at all that evident. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 1:00 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Articles in TRAINS Magazine On 1/9/03 1:45 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > It seems to me that in the famous TRAINS mag issue on the World's Greatest > Mountain Railroad in the winter of '57 there was a photgraph of the > "Cut-off" man and shanty located at UN. The April 1957 issue of TRAINS that Bennett mentions certainly is a "must have" issue. I frequently see other issues of TRAINS from the late 1940's and through the 1950's for sale on eBay that list PRR content. Can anyone describe what's included in these other issues and whether or not they are as worth having is the 4/57 issue? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:41:32 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: "Douglas Nelson" David P. Morgan wrote about the "Cutoff Man" at Gallitzin, who had a tiny hut, in the April 1957 TRAINS article on the PRR mountain crossing. I used this passage in the Philip Hastings book along with a photo of the cutoff man in action (page 65). Doug Nelson ---------- >From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope >Date: Thu, Jan 9, 2003, 9:20 AM > > Thanks Jerry and Greg.I understand how the freight train helpers would > be cut off on the fly and returned to Altoona via UN and AR but what > about passenger trains with the help in the "front"? Would a passenger > train be stopped to allow the helpers to cut off and use the loop back > to tracks 1&2? > > Back to the "Steam" freight helpers. How were the helpers cut away on > the fly? Did the conductor release the coupling? Were the air lines > connected on helpers for pushing? What I'm getting at is how was > uncoupling achieved on the fly? How did it differ between steam and > diesel helpers?--Mark-- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:55:52 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helpers on the East&West slope From: "Douglas Nelson" The Philip Hastings lead photo from the April 1957 TRAINS shows two Geep helpers pushing on the rear rider coach of a mail and express train at Horsehoe Curve. That would have been a noisy ride. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:17:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Configuration on the Bridge to Trenton? From: "M. E Allen" John, You're right. For the water to be that high one would need a boat to travel on route 29. Mike Allen (who sees that bridge from his car at least twice a week) Re: the bridge photo that Kenneth posted, http://www.trentonmakes.com/bridge/ is it possible that the reflection in the water is computer-generated? Just guessing that the water level is seldom so high, except in a hundred-year flood; or am I just misremembering the Delaware? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:30:43 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? Gentlemen: I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember converging on a number: 1. What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared? I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties. 2. In the 1941 copy, there are 32 numbered pages. Most pages picture one division in red, with surrounding divisions in heavy black and other roads in light black lines. 3. In the 192? copy, there are 44 maps, plus pages LXXIX through LXXXII. Pages LXXXI and LXXXII are "corrections in maps 1 to 44". 4. Like the 1941 edition, the 192? has a Long Island map. Unlike 1941, it also has an RF&P map, just as if it were a division of the Pennsy. 5. The 192? maps use a softer, wider red line than that reproduced in my 1941 reprint. There is also use of a green line when two divisions are shown on the same page (e.g. New York Divison and Philadelphia Terminal Divisions). Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and one for the original map. Let's look at corrections first: 1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton RR". This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at Tipton PA. You'd think I would remember the date out of service. 2. Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood. 3. On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to "Baltimore & Eastern RR". 4. Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division" 5. On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct" 6. On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, Lawton. (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville). 7. The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div. 8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in just about every division. For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct. Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date. I'm sure everyone has favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out at me: 1. The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy. Thus, it's after 1916. 2. The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the Wilkes-Barre Div. 3. Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div. 4. Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div 5. The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the Buffalo Div at Clermont 6. The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.). At this date, all of it down to its junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division. 7. As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division. And the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the Panhandle Div. 8. The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) is shown as a PRR line leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain. This is a new one to me, but Lorain was once a major steelmaking city. In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a PRR line or affiliate. In 1941, this line is shown not PRR, and only exists from the town of Nova OH north. 9. The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis. All the lines south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially a. all the ancestral Little Miami plus b. the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus c. the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus d. the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and then north to Trinway 10. The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still alive. 11. The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached Waveland Jct. and Brazil. Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of Brazil IN are shown. So can we determine the date of the map and the date of the "corrections" sheet? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:30:43 EST Subject: [PRR] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? --part1_6.6e424c0.2b5016f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen: I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember converging on a number: 1. What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared? I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties. 2. In the 1941 copy, there are 32 numbered pages. Most pages picture one division in red, with surrounding divisions in heavy black and other roads in light black lines. 3. In the 192? copy, there are 44 maps, plus pages LXXIX through LXXXII. Pages LXXXI and LXXXII are "corrections in maps 1 to 44". 4. Like the 1941 edition, the 192? has a Long Island map. Unlike 1941, it also has an RF&P map, just as if it were a division of the Pennsy. 5. The 192? maps use a softer, wider red line than that reproduced in my 1941 reprint. There is also use of a green line when two divisions are shown on the same page (e.g. New York Divison and Philadelphia Terminal Divisions). Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and one for the original map. Let's look at corrections first: 1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton RR". This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at Tipton PA. You'd think I would remember the date out of service. 2. Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood. 3. On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to "Baltimore & Eastern RR". 4. Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division" 5. On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct" 6. On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, Lawton. (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville). 7. The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div. 8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in just about every division. For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct. Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date. I'm sure everyone has favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out at me: 1. The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy. Thus, it's after 1916. 2. The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the Wilkes-Barre Div. 3. Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div. 4. Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div 5. The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the Buffalo Div at Clermont 6. The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.). At this date, all of it down to its junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division. 7. As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division. And the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the Panhandle Div. 8. The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) is shown as a PRR line leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain. This is a new one to me, but Lorain was once a major steelmaking city. In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a PRR line or affiliate. In 1941, this line is shown not PRR, and only exists from the town of Nova OH north. 9. The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis. All the lines south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially a. all the ancestral Little Miami plus b. the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus c. the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus d. the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and then north to Trinway 10. The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still alive. 11. The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached Waveland Jct. and Brazil. Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of Brazil IN are shown. So can we determine the date of the map and the date of the "corrections" sheet? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_6.6e424c0.2b5016f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen:

I know we thrashed around with this one before, but I don't remember converging on a number:

1.  What years were Accounting Department Maps of Divisions books prepared?  I have a Bob Reid copy of the (Nov 1) 1941 A.D.80, and an undated copy (the covers are missing) that's original and earlier -- probably in the Twenties.

2.  In the 1941 copy, there are 32 numbered pages.  Most pages picture one division in red, with surrounding divisions in heavy black and other roads in light black lines.

3.  In the 192? copy, there are 44 maps, plus pages LXXIX through LXXXII.  Pages LXXXI and LXXXII are "corrections in maps 1 to 44". 

4.  Like the 1941 edition, the 192? has a Long Island map.  Unlike 1941, it also has an RF&P map, just as if it were a division of the Pennsy.

5.  The 192? maps use a softer, wider red line than that reproduced in my 1941 reprint.  There is also use of a green line when two divisions are shown on the same page (e.g. New York Divison and Philadelphia Terminal Divisions).

Actually, we're looking for two dates here -- one for the corrections, and one for the original map.  Let's look at corrections first:

1. On the Middle Division (and Tyrone and Cresson Div maps), we erase "Tipton RR".  This was a coal hauling branch outside Tyrone, meeting the main at Tipton PA.  You'd think I would remember the date out of service.

2.  Camp Meade on the Baltimore Division is renamed Fort Leonard Wood.

3.  On the Delaware Division, change "Balt. Chesapeake & Atlantic Ry" to "Baltimore & Eastern RR".

4.  Change "Cleveland and Pittsburgh Division" to "Cleveland Division"

5.  On the Erie & Ashtabula Div, change "Lawrence Jct" to "New Castle Jct"

6.  On the Wheeling Division, erase heavy black line OR&W from a point between Mill Run and Chandlersville to Woodsfield and add after Mill Run, Lawton.  (In other words, the western end of the Ohio River and Western has been abandoned except for a small fragment out of Zanesville).

7.  The Columbus & Muskingum Valley line from Trinway OH to Morrow OH changes from Cincinnati Div to Panhandle Div.

8. In addition, there are intriguing changes of name (and/or corrections) in just about every division.  For example, on the Panhandle Division, Weirton Jct is erased and Wheeling Jct is renamed Weirton Jct.

Then there is the uncorrected map itself to date.  I'm sure everyone has favorite tests on their divisions; let me mention a few items that jump out at me:

1.  The I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) is in north of Indianapolis, replacing PRR trackage rights on the LE&W from Kokomo IN to Indy.  Thus, it's after 1916.

2.  The Schuylkill and Wilkes-Barre Divisions have not yet been merged as the Wilkes-Barre Div.

3.  Elmira Div not consolidated with Williamsport Div.

4.  Baltimore Div separate from Maryland Div

5.  The Johnsonburg RR still connects the Renovo Div at Johnsonburg with the Buffalo Div at Clermont

6.  The Loudonville-Brink Haven-Warsaw Jct.-Coshocton line that formerly provided a path from the Cleveland & Marietta's southeastern Ohio coalfields to the Fort Wayne and thus up the Toledo Branch has not yet been cut in the middle (Brink Haven to Warsaw Jct.).  At this date, all of it down to its junction with the Panhandle at Coshocton is included in the Eastern Division.

7.  As we know, the OR&W is intact and part of the Wheeling Division.  And the Cincinnati Division has not yet lost the Trinway-Morrow line to the Panhandle Div.

8.  The LA&S RR (possibly Lorain Ashland & Southern) is shown as a PRR line leaving the Eastern Division at Custaloga and going north to Lake Erie via Ashland-Nova-Wellington-Oberlin-Amherst-Lorain.  This is a new one to me, but Lorain was once a major steelmaking city.  In 192?, the LA&S is marked as a PRR line or affiliate.  In 1941, this line is shown not PRR, and only exists from the town of Nova OH north.

9.  The Columbus Division in 192? was a single route from Columbus OH through Urbana, Bradford, New Paris, Richmond IN and Indianapolis.  All the lines south of it, including all four lines at Xenia and the passenger main through Dayton, were Cincinnati Division -- essentially
       a.  all the ancestral Little Miami plus
       b.  the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern plus
       c.  the Chicago main line from Rendcomb Junction (Cincinnati) as far as Glen Tower (Richmond), just west of the state line plus
       d.  the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley east through Zanesville and then north to Trinway

10.  The Logansport Division included the old and new Chicago routes from Boone into Logansport, and in addition the Converse-Muncie branch was still alive.

11.  The Central Indiana (owned 50/50 by PRR and NYC interests) still reached Waveland Jct. and Brazil.  Both mains of the St. Louis Division west of Brazil IN are shown.

So can we determine the date of the map and the date of the "corrections" sheet? 

                          

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_6.6e424c0.2b5016f3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:26:27 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? If they changed the name of Ft. Meade to Ft. Leonard Wood on the map, that was a mistake as Meade is still to this day Ft.Meade and is still in MD. Ft. Wood is still Ft. Wood and is in MO. Al - USAR Ret. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:26:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] A.D. 80 (Accounting Department Maps) dates? If they changed the name of Ft. Meade to Ft. Leonard Wood on the map, that was a mistake as Meade is still to this day Ft.Meade and is still in MD. Ft. Wood is still Ft. Wood and is in MO. Al - USAR Ret. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey [Loewy] Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:58:15 +0000 As near as I can trace it the first version was the L6 (?) The side rodded road engine that was a disaster and all gone by the 40's. The first semi- streamlined version was the modified P5a's when production was held due to a grade crossing accident of a box cab. The G's were a natural progresion from the P5a's. > VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > > Now that the topic of Loewey > > LOEWY > 8)>> > > > and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone > > > in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab > > designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? > Nope. > > THAT was the (other) point of my little rant. > 8)>> > ''the shape' just appeared' > > Its been said that it may have come from Westinghouse. > To my eye, it looks a lot like a 'windblasted' L5, > with possible relations to NYC S Motor and/or Milwaukee > Bi Polars. > Both those are GE, more or less as was, i think, the > first L5. > > I make no assertions, just observations (and some may be > iffy....). Candidates seem to be: > GE > PRR > Westinghouse > and all combinations > > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:29:40 -0500 The center cab P-5a carbody design came AFTER the GG-1 so I would guess you could say it was Loewey inspired. Bill V. (saw Loewey on his last PRR trip behind the 4935) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of VVA249@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:36 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] CLASSES P5a, R and GG-1 PRE Loewey Now that the topic of Loewey and the GG-1 has been totally beaten to death - is anyone in particular credited with the pre Loewey centercab designs on the P5a (Mods) classes R and riveted GG-1? Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Tyco GG1 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:39:54 +0000 How good are the pantographs on the Tyco engine? Are they good enough to reuse? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:41:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Looking for assistance --part1_15d.1a31b154.2b504398_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings; I model in N-Scale and I'm trying to find parts or guidance on to locos I want to cross-knit.Did,or does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? Does anyone know a source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS E.J. EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_15d.1a31b154.2b504398_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings;
   I model in N-Scale and I'm trying to find parts or guidance on to locos I want to
cross-knit.Did,or does,anyone make a cast pilot for the K-4 Pacific? Does anyone
know a source for a set of cylinders for a B8a ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.I'm stumped. THANKS  E.J.   EMACGIS@aol.com --part1_15d.1a31b154.2b504398_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:30:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Dayton Union Terminal's plant In a message dated 1/9/03 8:21:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > On an unrelated note, I picked up a hardbound edition of "History of > the B&O" for $10 at the GATS show last month, and to my suprize the > two page color lead in spread was Dayton Union Station with a B&O F > unit pulling a freight Eastbound on the far North track. I belive the > PRR track was the far South with an NYC and possibly an Erie track in > between. I can post publishing info if anyone wants it. > > Thanks, > > xlr8@atlantic.net > Please do give us publishing info. I'm not sure if this book is the same as the one authored by Kirk Reynolds and David P. Oroszi. My friend Dave Oroszi is a Dayton native and (unlike me) still lives there. Dave and Jill Oroszi have probably the best collection of railroading photos on the Dayton area that exists... If I may offer a correction on Dayton Union Station -- the ancestral PRR, B& O, NYC, and Erie tracks at downtown Dayton were replaced by the Dayton Union Terminal Company's four-track elevated main. Thus, I don't believe there are individually owned tracks within the DUT plant. Instead, from east to west: 1. DUT plant starts at Second Street with NYC, B&O, and Erie tracks entering from the west ends of their respective East Dayton Yards. 2. B&O Toledo line joins from the north 3. PRR main from Xenia comes in at "Wayne Avenue Junction" 4. About a mile west, the station tracks spread out between #2 and #3 mains. There are two stub tracks for express on the north side of the station. 5. At the west end of the station (once known by local fans as "under the trees", all tracks converge to a doubletrack main. 6. DUT main crosses Great Miami River on a 3-span curved-chord truss bridge ("Pennsylvania truss"). 7. After passing between factories for a few blocks, DUT ends at MIAMI CITY JUNCTION. Miami City, the area west of the Miami River, was once a separate municipality. Here, the Pennsy leaves for Richmond IN, and the NYC/Big Four and the B&O head downriver for Cincinnati. On the ground, the DUT plant was pretty much all standard PRR equipment. Track layout, position light signals (including a series of signal bridges), gas switch heaters, and even the railings to protect employees were PRR standard. Switches were electropneumatic for speed. The only deviation I could see was that the DUT buildings (notably the compressor house along Third Street) were constructed of locally popular yellow brick, and were not PRR standard. Despite the Pennsy resemblance (and a one quarter ownership), DUT was a separate company. For example, it had its own rule book (about 32 pages), which I suspect all PRR crews working Dayton were examined on and expected to carry. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:30:17 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Published Cincinnati pictures and errata Gentlemen, Most of you know that I'm doing a rush job for the PRRT&HS Keystone. One of the things I'm trying to do is list and gently critique the published pictures. Below is what I have so far... 1. Pennsy Diesel Years One - Page 134. Although the page is lettered "Columbus", the lower picture shows H-10-44 (class FS-10) #5980, and labels it as "Undercliff". Certainly, the FS-10 was normal switcher power for the Cincinnati-Dayton area in the early 60's, but this picture actually shows Clare. What we see here is a transfer cut that departed PRR's Undercliff Yard a couple of miles back, and headed up the Little Miami through RENDCOMB JUNCTION and RED BANK. It is now alongside N&W's Clare Yard (note the N&W gray office building), and the attractive Cincinnati suburb of Mariemont lies behind those trees on top of the hill. The switcher has just crossed the N&W diamond at PRR CLARE; you can see the peak of CLARE's two-story brick tower behind the GTW boxcar, and the N&W's bridge across the Little Miami River is out of the picture to the left. As these cars left "east" out of Undercliff, it was possible they were headed up to RENDCOMB JUNCTION for local industries or interchange across town. But there aren't many logical destinations past RED BANK, as from here to Xenia on-line industry is basically a few country elevators. The fact the cut is this far "east" suggests that these cars will be set out here, and will leave Clare Yard in an N&W train for Portsmouth, Kenova and points east. This is confirmed when we notice that the engine is coming through the crossover into the 3-track interchange yard, where these cars will be set out for the Norfolk road. 2. PDY 1 - Page 135, correctly labeled shots of PRR trains at the north end of CUT, waiting to go "east". Above the units of #207, we see the Terminal's Tower A, which has been preserved as a railfan lookout/museum/library through the efforts of the Cincinnati Railroad Club. 3. PDY 1 - Page 136. Here we have two photos of Trainmaster #8708. These are wonderful, nay, exciting shots of these FM's, but I'm unable to correlate the two pictures with any Cincinnati location. The overpass in the upper shot may look a little like Beechmont Avenue, which bisects Undercliff Yard. But the roundhouse in the lower shot is a total miss - Undercliff didn't have one. Also, the buildings in the shot are just not grimy enough for eastern Cincinnati, and there are no hills around the site. OTOH, the lower shot looks a lot like the engine terminal at Hawthorne Yard in Indianapolis. If it were, there would be a good-sized rectangular-bin concrete coaling tower still standing just to the right of the picture. 4. Pennsy Diesel Years Five - Page 92, we see 9095, an H-10-44 (class FS-10),. Although identified as the Undercliff Diesel Shop, this is more correctly called the "west" end of the diesel house at Pendleton Shops. Of course, Pendleton served as the engine terminal for Undercliff, but it's almost 2 miles closer to downtown and on the Ohio River instead of along the Little Miami River. . Over on the bottom of page 97, we are again at Pendleton, not Undercliff (notice the houses on the hill are the same ones) 5. PDY5 - Page 93. Yes, this is Undercliff Yard, and it's easy to guess this 1966 shot is westward from the Beechmont Avenue bridge, about the only overhead highway bridge in the length of the yard. The auto racks may be for GM Norwood, where Camaros were assembled 6. PDY5 - Page 94, 95, 96, top 97. Nice shots of CUT. Page 95 reminds us that PRR passenger trains out of CUT ran on the B&O for almost 10 miles - up the Mill Creek valley past Spring Grove Avenue, NA tower, and Winton Place's depot, then east to Norwood to get on Pennsy rails. From Norwood, eastbounds went OAKLEY, VALLEY, and RED BANK to get onto Little Miami rails and head for Xenia and Columbus. 7. Pennsy Diesel Years Six - No Cincinnati pix found 8. Pennsylvania Color Pictorials Vols I, II, and III by Dave Sweetland - No Cincinnati pix found 9. Pennsylvania Railroad by Mike Schaefer and Brian Solomon, p 37 - The Union, behind two EP20's, awaits departure for Chicago. A 1953 shot with the lead unit still in DGLE (green). Note X42 and R50b as headend cars. Also, the baggage trucks at left are standing in front of CUT's postal annex. 10. Pennsy Power I - p 39 shows L2s 9630. This is probably Pendleton, home terminal for the five USRA Mikes that Pennsy retained (25 or 30 others are rumored to have been quickly shipped off to roads farther west). 11. Pennsy Power II -- No Cincinnati pix found 12. Pennsy Power III - p 97 Middle photo of 7929 is similar scene to the 7930 pic (above), but identified as Pendleton in September 1933. Note the oval builders' plate. Tough to identify bottom location (PRR 7928) - it could be anywhere from Cincinnati to Fort Wayne along the L2s' normal route. 13. PPIII - p 115. Not Cincinnati, but perilously close. It's the Xenia coal dock, all right; photographer is standing on Ci